AA History Lovers 2007 Messages 3976-4774 moderated by Nancy Olson September 18, 1929 – March 25, 2005 Glenn F. Chesnut June 28, 1939 – IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3976. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Film of Bill W. on the Twelve Traditions From: Chuck David . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/30/2006 2:09:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The video "Bill Discusses the Twelve Traditions" is available from GSO (VS-20). It is in the current catalog in the AV material section catalog number (VS-20) a 1/2 in VHS video price $15.00. ** Bill Discusses the Twelve Traditions -- Bill W. tells how the principles safeguarding AA unity developed. 60 minutes. I own a copy of this video and have dubed it to DVD to save it for future use. My VCR only works intermittantly and find that DVD format is the way to go... I have noticed that many of the AV materials GSO offers are on VHS format. Even at a recent Area meeting there was extensive discussion on producing materials in DVD format vice VHS format... .I believe it was the ASL signing of the Big Book which is available however excludes most of the stories from the back of the book. You may contact GSO to receive a catalog of materials available their number is 1-212-870-3312 / this is also the order number if you decide to order the VHS tape. Hope this was helpful. C h u c k D a v i d cuzimacowboy2@yahoo.com Litrature and GV rep Oak Harbor Group Oak Harbor, WA - - - - - - - Thanks to all, we got the same information from a number of our members: "Bent Christensen" (bent_christensen5 at yahoo.com) "Chris Budnick" (cbudnick at nc.rr.com) alan dobson (dobbo101 at yahoo.com) Bill Lash (barefootbill at optonline.net) "momaria33772" (jhoffma6 at tampabay.rr.com) Gary Rohde (feelgoodcp at yahoo.com) ROGER WHEATLEY (chief_roger at yahoo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3977. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Film of Bill W. on the Twelve Traditions From: Arthur Sheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/30/2006 6:33:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The VHS tape is Conference-approved service material. You can purchase it directly from AAWS in NY or through your local Intergroup Central Office. It is item number (VS-20) and costs $15. It might better be called "Bill Discusses Ten of the Twelve Traditions." He got a little pressed for time near the end and had to skip two of them. There are two other VHS tapes that you might be interested in: "Bill's Own Story" (VS-21 - $15) and "Markings on the Journey" (M-57 - $16) which is an hour history of AA. All three items are designated as "confidential and available to AA members only." The catalog asks you to order through your group. If you know your group's service number then you can order it directly by: Phone: 1-212-870-3312 Order Entry Dep't) Fax: 1-212-870-3137 or 1-800-437-3584 Mail: AAWS, PO Box 459, Grand Central Station, NY, NY 10163 Email: orders@aa.org Call the Order Entry Dep't for assistance. They are very friendly and helpful. Cheers Arthur IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3978. . . . . . . . . . . . Significant January Dates in A.A. History From: chesbayman56 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/1/2007 2:33:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Jan 1929 - Bill W. wrote third promise in Bible to quit drinking. Jan 1940 - Akron group moves to new home at King School. Jan 1944 - Dr. Harry Tiebout's first paper on the subject of "Alcoholics Anonymous". Jan 1944 - onset of Bill's 11 years of depression. Jan 1946 - Readers Digest does a story on AA. Jan 1948 - 1st A.A. meeting in Japan Jan 1951 - AA Grapevine publishes memorial issue for Dr Bob. Jan 1958 - Bill writes article for Grapevine on "Emotional Sobriety". Jan 1, 1943 - Columbus Dispatch reports 1st Anniversary of Columbus, Ohio Central Group. Jan 2, 1889 - Sister Ignatia born, Ballyhane Ireland. Jan 3, 1939 - First sale of Works Publishing Co stock is recorded. Jan 4, 1940 - 1st AA group formed in Detroit, Michigan. Jan 5, 1939 - Dr Bob tells Ruth Hock in a letter that AA has "to get away from the Oxford Group atmosphere". Jan 5, 2001 - Chuck C. from Houston died sober in Texas at 38 years sober. Jan 6, 2000 - Stephen Poe, compiler of the Concordance to Alcoholics Anonymous, died. Jan 8, 1938 - New York AA splits from the Oxford Group. Jan 10, 1940 - 1st AA meeting not in a home meets at King School, Akron, Ohio. Jan 13, 1988 - Dr Jack Norris Chairman/Trustee of AA for 27 years dies. Jan 13, 2003 - Dr Earle M sober for 49 years, author of "Physician Heal Thyself" died. Jan 15, 1937 - Fitz M brings AA meetings to Washington DC. Jan 15, 1945 - First AA meeting held in Springfield, Missouri. Jan 19, 1943 - 1st discussion for starting AA group in Toronto. Jan 19, 1944 - Wilson's returned from 1st major A.A. tour started in Oct 24 1943. Jan 19, 1999 - Frank M., AA Archivist since 1983, died peacefully in his sleep. Jan 21, 1954 - Hank P who helped Bill start NY office dies in Pennington, New Jersey. Jan 23, 1985 - Bob B. died sober November 11, 2001. Jan 24, 1918 - Bill marries Lois Burnham in the Swedenborgen Church in Brookyn Heights. Jan 24, 1945 - 1st black group St. Louis Jan. 24, 1971 - Bill W dies at Miami Beach, FL. Jan 25, 1915 - Dr. Bob marries Anne Ripley. Jan 26, 1971 - New York Times publishes Bill's obituary on page 1. Jan 30, 1961 - Dr Carl Jung answers Bill's letter with "Spiritus Contra Spiritum". End of Jan 1939 - 400 copies of manuscript of Big Book circulated for comment, evaluation and sale. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3979. . . . . . . . . . . . Not AA Number Three From: spebsqsa@att.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/1/2007 9:54:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Bill W and Dr Bob worked with two other alcoholics in 1935 before succeeding with Bill Dotson who became AA Number Three. There was a Dr McKay and then Edgar (Eddie) Reilly. Where do those two fit in this timeline? May 11 -- Bill W calls Reverend Tunks. May 12 -- Mothers Day. Bill W and Dr Bob meet. June 10 -- Dr Bob's last drink. June 17 -- (other possible last drink date) June 26 -- Bill D enters Akron's City Hospital. June 28 -- Bill W and Dr Bob visit Bill D. That isn't even seven weeks and Dr Bob was away getting drunk at a medical conference part of that time. When did they work with the other two unsuccessful AA #3 candidates? Was either around at the time of Bob's slip? Did either of them visit Bill D in the hospital. Did Bill D help during Eddie's slippery period? If Dr Bob and Bill worked with Eddie "throughout the summer," then he must have been around for a while after Bill D became part of the group. It would be interestig to know the full sequence. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3980. . . . . . . . . . . . Emmet Fox''s secretary''s connection to early AA From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/31/2006 5:26:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The wikipedia article on Emmet Fox http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmet_Fox contains the following sentence: "Fox's secretary was the mother of one of the men who worked with Alcoholics Anonymous co-founder Bill Wilson, and partly as a result of this connection early AA groups often went to hear Fox." If this statement is correct, can anyone in our web group give me this man's name? Glenn Chesnut, South Bend P.S. It is well known to AA historians that in New York, "early AA groups often went to hear Fox." It is not that, but the first part of that sentence in the wikipedia article that I would like to know more about. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3981. . . . . . . . . . . . United Kingdom GSO: Film of Bill W. on the Twelve Traditions From: Susie Dixon . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/30/2006 4:34:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi everyone I got my copy of the DVD from GSO in UK. Hope this helps. I presume GSO USA have copies. All good wishes to everyone for 2007 Susie D in the UK IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3982. . . . . . . . . . . . Patron saints of alcoholism From: John Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/31/2006 2:41:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Regarding Glenn's reply about St, Monica, other patron saints of alcoholism include John of God, Martin of Tours, Matthias the Apostle, and Unban of Langres. Others were recognized as saints in part through their work with alcoholics. Perhaps the most notable person today who is in process of being recognized a saint is the Venerable Matt Talbot (1856-1925) of Dublin, Ireland. A few books look at his recovery journey in light of the twelve steps. The patron saint of hangovers is St. Bibiana (Vivian) who lived in 4th century Rome. She is also the patron saint of the Diocese of Los Angeles. John Blair IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3983. . . . . . . . . . . . Jack Norris'' Talk at Bill W.''s Funeral (1971) From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/1/2007 8:30:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII DR. JACK NORRIS' TALK MEMORIAL SERVICES for BILL WILSON NEW YORK, N.Y. FEB. 14TH, 1971 Our beloved Bill is dead. Even as I stand before you and say the words, I cannot really believe that it is true. In my heart I choose to believe that Bill is here with us at this very moment. And I somehow can almost hear him saying in that half-amused, half embarrassed way of his, "Oh come on now Jack, do you really think all this fuss is necessary?" Two weeks ago, at a meeting of your Board of Trustees, shortly after Bill's passing, there was a rather lively discussion about a matter involving the whole fellowship. When it had reached a certain level of intensity, I found myself waiting to hear Bill speak up, as he so often did and say those few words that would put everything in perspective. But he didn't speak. And it was then that I realized way down deep that we would never hear his voice again ... that we could no longer count on the constant presence of his wisdom and strength. We could never again say as we had said so many times before, "Bill, what do you think?" And I at least, have not yet come to accept this completely. Bill was no saint. He was an alcoholic and a man of stubborn will and purpose. How else could he have lived through the years of frustration, failure, and discouragement while the steps, the traditions, and the conference were being hammered out on the anvil of hard experience with the first few groups? That he had the self-honesty, the clarity of vision to see the vital necessity for the Third Step, and turning one's life and will over to a Higher Power is just one part of our great good fortune that Bill lived. I have seen Bill's pride and I have seen his humility. And I have been present when people from far countries have met him for the first time and started to cry. And all Bill - that shy Vermonter - could do was stand there and look like he wanted to run from the room. No, Bill was no saint, although many of us wanted to make him into one. Knowing this, he was insistent that legends about him be kept to a minimum - that accurate records be kept so that future generations would know him as a man. He was a very human person -- to me an exceptionally human person. Bill's constant concern during almost all of the years that I knew him was that Alcoholics Anonymous should always be available for the suffering alcoholic--that the mistakes that led to the fading of previous movements to help alcoholics should be avoided. To me one measure of his greatness is the clarity of his vision of the future in his determination to let go of us long before we were willing to let go of him. Bill was a good sponsor, - the wise old timer determined to relinquish the role of founder because he knew that A.A. must, as he would say, come of age and take complete responsibility for itself. He had an abiding faith that our Fellowship not only could, but should run without him. Repeatedly, during the last few years, he has said in General Service Conference sessions "We have nothing to fear." Bill believed that the wisdom of A.A. came out of church basements and not from the pulpit; that it was directed from the groups to the Trustees rather than the other way around. He sometimes felt, though, when the Conference disagreed with him as it sometimes did, that its conscience needed to be better informed, but it was this way that we really shared experience and developed strength and confidence that the answers would work out. Bill knew that it was not one voice that should be heard, but many thousands of voices. And it was his gift that he was able to listen to them all, then, out of the noise and confusion discern the group conscience. Then he would put it all together, the tension of argument would fade, and everyone would realize that his answer was right. What Bill's death means to me now is, that all of us--all of us: you, the delegates, the Trustees--will have to listen much more carefully than we once did in order to make out the voice of the group conscience. And I know that this is possible. Bill has trained us for it beginning in St. Louis in 1955. For this was Bill's vision -- to create a channel of communication within the Fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous that would make it possible for everyone to be hear: from the individual through the group, to the delegates and to the Trustees, so that A.A. will always be here to extend a hand to the drunk who is at this very moment crying out in the darkness of his night as he reaches for help. In closing, I want to say that it has been an honor for me to have had this opportunity to participate with you in giving thanks to God that Bill lived and was given the wisdom and strength and courage to make the world a better place for all of us. There are many more things I could say, but what can one say finally of a man's goodness and greatness? How many ways can you take his measure? I cannot do it or say it for any of you -- only for myself. He was the greatest and wisest man I ever knew. Above everything, he was a man. And I believe that he left his goodness and greatness and wisdom with us, for any of us to take in what measure we can. May God grant us the wisdom and strength to keep Alcoholics Anonymous alive, vital, attractive, unencumbered by the egocentricities that can so easily spoil it. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3984. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The "attack" was by Jerome E., not Barry L. From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/30/2006 10:05:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Ernie, Jerome Ellison was a regular contributor to The Saturday Evening Post and may have offered his article to them. But he did publish one in The Nation in 1964 and the title might have been "Is Alcoholics Anonymous a Cult?" He actually called me for a piece of information while he was writing the article, but he got it wrong when it was published. The matter in question concerned AA in southern Michigan and he somehow converted it to AA in the South! Jerry was upset with AA leadership because he had been fired as editor of the Grapevine after a short stay there. Bill took on the duty of firing him, since Bill had recommended him for the job. Jerry was an excellent writer and editor but he had trouble getting along with people at work I met him at the Grapevine offices while he was there and was very much impressed by his background. He was a University of Michigan graduate and had been a close college friend of one of our AAs in Jackson, Michigan. The Saturday Evening Post did run a nasty article in the Sept. 19, 1964, issue by Arthur Cain, the same man who had written "Alcoholics Anonymous---Cult or Cure?" for the February 1963 Harper's Magazine. Cain wrote Bill a letter of apology for the Saturday Evening Post article and blamed its nastiness on the editors. Bill, though usually very kind to critics, did not cut him much slack in replying to Cain's apology. We will have to get together soon with Kathleen and Father Dave; both have mentioned it to me. As I told you, Kathleen has been able to publish a few items to help her in her quest for tenure at UT. Happy New Year to you and Linda, Ernie. I am grateful for your friendship and all the help and encouragement you've givien me the past twenty-seven years. Mel Mel Barger / melb@accesstoledo.com (melb at accesstoledo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3985. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: How to take Akron tour? From: Bob McK. . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/30/2006 9:25:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I would suggest stopping first at the Akron Intergroup Office, 775 N. Main St., Akron, Ohio 44310, to view their fantastic history display in timeline order, and get maps. They are open 9-5 weekdays and 9-1 on Saturday, other arrangements may be possible. You can see part of that here: http://akronaa.org/Archives/tour/tour2.html Some other questions can be answered by calling them: 330/253-8181 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - From: Jocelyn (prpllady51 at yahoo.com) Telephone: Intergroup Office: (330) 253-8181 Toll free (in Ohio): 1-800-897-6737 Fax: (330) 253-8292 Dr. Bob's House is open Noon to 3pm every day except Christmas. Also the home next door serves as a museum for AA pictures and all sorts of artifacts. The cemetery where Dr Bob is buried is a short drive from the house. When we were at Dr Bob's House they had a map of the area with directions to the various sites of interest. The Mayflower Hotel is now a personal care home but they have kept the Lobby intact. If you tell the people at the home that you are a "friend of Bill W's" and would like to see the lobby you can get access. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - From: "Jayaa82@earthlink.net" (Jayaa82 at earthlink.net) I am a volunteer at the Akron Archives located in the Akron Intergroup office. (775 N Main St, Akron 44310) That would be a great place to start, with enough advance notice the archivist can meet you there and give you a tour of the archives, and we have maps to get you to Dr Bob's, the gatehouse, Mayflower, Dr. Bob's grave, etc. Call the office for info, they will be glad to help (330) 253-8181 Jay Moore - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - From: "mchugh1652" (mchugh1652 at ameritech.net) http://www.akronaa.org/ The Akron Intergroup Office website. There used to be a map and tour information on it but I can't find it right now. We also used to have volunteeers who could lead groups on a tour but I'm not sure of the status of that service at this point either. Woody W could probably fill you in on both items or you can certainly call the office 330-253-8181. If you have any questions I'd be glad to help, you can reply to my email address: (mchugh1652 at ameritech.net) Please also take a look at the archives portion of the website, there is alot of good info about the history of Akron AA on there (and a lot more at the archives). I look forward to being of service. Peter McH. from Akron - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - From: "ricktompkins" (ricktompkins at comcast.net) I can suggest starting off at the Akron Intergroup Office on N. Main. The sequence of where you visit can be guided by an available tour map from the Office. Call ahead, ask for a viewing of the Archives at the Intergroup Office -- the Akron Archives is a top-flight museum site, and I'm sure Gail LaCroix or Jim Burns would be happy to greet you, and perhaps arrange a personal guided tour with a local volunteer. On your tour, remember to plan a quiet time at Dr. Bob's gravesite ... After all the touring, get to a meeting, too! The Arid Club on the southeast side has a good speaker meeting. Most of all, you will heartily enjoy the trip! Rick, Illinois - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - From: daniel dougherty (olddand at msn.com) You have a pretty good tour of Akron already mapped out. I would suggest you add the Gatehouse to your tour of the Seiberling estate (and allow enough time to tour the flowers while you're there). There is a house next to Dr. Bob's House, in which the Akron office maintains a pretty good collection of AA historical items. BTW, don't miss the Akron office itself. It has a great display in its meeting room. Also be sure to try and schedule a meeting with the Akron historian, who is also located in the rooms where the Akron office is located. If you have time, you might also like to attend an Aakron meeting or two. Many of them have historical backgrounds and display items. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - From: Sheryl Sizemore (sherylsizemore at yahoo.com) I can say it's a spiritual experience. All you need to do is call Dr. Bob's House which is open from noon until 3:00 pm daily, phone 330-864-1935. Or email them @ volunteers@drbobs.com Internet address is www.drbobs.com One of their volunteer coordinators (Rick W.) took us to Dr. Bob's home, Seiberlings Estate, Town's Hospital, and Dr. Bob's gravesite. We also went to a meeting that night which began in the old school. Have a blessed trip and please share with us your experience, strength, and hope. Sheryl Sizemore Holly Springs Group, GA - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Also from: "Mike" (heat_cool2004 at yahoo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3986. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Emmet Fox''s secretary and Al S. From: chris mahl . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/1/2007 11:34:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I believe his name was Al Speckman. I will dig out the reference and send it along. Since his mother was Emmet's secretary, Bill, Ebby, Al and others would get mezzanine seats and listen to many of Emmet's talks here in the city. I am often amazed at how many of the paragraphs in the Big Book so closely emulate turns and phrases of Emmet's. I'll send along another note with more specifics. Best from NYC. Chris M. On 12/31/06, Glenn Chesnut wrote: > > The wikipedia article on Emmet Fox > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmet_Fox > contains the following sentence: > > "Fox's secretary was the mother of one of the > men who worked with Alcoholics Anonymous > co-founder Bill Wilson, and partly as a result > of this connection early AA groups often went > to hear Fox." > > If this statement is correct, can anyone in > our web group give me this man's name? > > Glenn Chesnut, South Bend ----------------------- Chris Mahl 10 Ventures PDA 917-902-4980 Fax 18668230272 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3987. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Patron saints of alcoholism From: Bob Wilson . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/2/2007 2:20:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Please take this with a grain of salt, but a medallion was shown to me by a fellow AA back in the seventies who was librarian at the state supreme court in Hawai'i. She had a colleague who was a learned nun, who when she got sober gave her the medallion featuring a "Saint McTavish [or MacTavish]" who the nun told her was the patron saint of drunks. I'll bet this list could grow to be a long one. A good year to all of you, Bob W. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3988. . . . . . . . . . . . AA No. 3? From: Sober186@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/1/2007 7:39:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Some time between Dr. Bpb's last drink and the when Bill and Dr. Bob first heard of Bill D., there was a man named Eddie R who was sober for at least a few days. In the book Dr. Bob And The Good Old Timers, his escapades are described in the Chapter beginning on page 76. He was apparently sober off and on the summer of 1935. Bill D's wife remembers Eddie being sober when Bill D. got out of the hospital on July 4, 1935. She is also quoted as saying "When Bill D. came out of the hospital Dr. Bob had only been sober three weeks. I thought they'd been sober for years. I think my husband thought so too." Eddie did not stay sober for any long strech in the early days, but eventually put together at least 7 years of continuous sobriety and visited Bill in New York at the office. He said he was the first one to get the program, and the first one to reject it. Jim L. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3989. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Significant January Dates in A.A. History From: Chris Budnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/1/2007 11:37:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I've got a scanned copy of Bill's written promises in his family bible. The specific date of his third promise was January 12, 1929. Bill wrote: "To tell you once more that I am finished with it. I love you." _____ From: chesbayman56 Subject: Significant January Dates in A.A. History "Jan 1929 - Bill W. wrote third promise in Bible to quit drinking." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3990. . . . . . . . . . . . 60th anniv. of AA in Great Britain, plus new UK GSO address From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/2/2007 8:16:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Apropos the film of Bill W. on the Twelve Traditions which is available from the United Kingdom GSO. The UK's GSO is moving this month to larger premises. The new address will be: PO Box 1, 10 Toft Green, York YO1 7NJ. Telephone and email addresses stay the same. By the way, it is the 60th anniversary of the foundation of AA in Great Britain in March this year. Regards, Laurie A. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3991. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Patron saints of alcoholism From: george cleveland . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/2/2007 2:27:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Also being considered is Fr. Alfred Pampalon, born in Levis, Quebec and entombed at St. Anne de Beaupre north of Quebec City. FMI, see http://repchret.chadcom.org/chapelle/pampalon1.html George IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3992. . . . . . . . . . . . Significant January Dates/Questions From: Dennis M. . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/2/2007 5:22:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have a couple of questions relative to the significant dates in AA history. Jan 23, 1985 - Bob B. died sober November 11, 2001. Who is Bob B.? Jan 24, 1945 - 1st black group St. Louis I remember doing some research at the New York archives and noted that in 1946 the first group of what I suspect were predominantly black members located in the New York Harlem community called itself the "St. Nicholas Interracial Group." I noticed that several more groups came into existence during the late 1940's/early '50's also were listed as "Interracial" groups. We know they would not have referred to themselves as "black" in those days. Was it their decision to call their groups "Interracial" or was it another decision maker? I always assumed that the reference to interracial was a desire by those groups to convey the message that anyone was welcome in their groups while we know that not every group of AA in that timeframe was welcoming to black alcoholic members. Dennis Mardon - - - From Glenn Chesnut: Although the first two black members in South Bend did not come in until 1948, the fullest account of early black AA people is, I believe, still the one given in "The Factory Owner and the Convict" and "The St. Louis Gambler and the Railroad Man," with full accounts given in these early black members' own words. See: http://hindsfoot.org/kfoc1.html http://hindsfoot.org/kstl1.html Plus additional materials on John Shaifer, etc., at http://hindsfoot.org/nhome.html and "Early Black A.A. along the Chicago-Gary- South Bend Axis" at http://hindsfoot.org/nblack1.html In South Bend, one of the first two black members eventually formed an "Interracial Group," where the title was designed to make it clear that white AA's were perfectly welcome, but that there were going to be black people there if they were still too prejudiced to handle this. That was the sole reason for giving the group that name. But Brownie, the other key black leader in South Bend, was nevertheless opposed to the formation of this group, and Goshen Bill (the key black leader in the Elkhart/Goshen/ Kosciuscko county area) was extremely opposed (to say the least) to having a group like that. Goshen Bill in particular said that "he had gotten drunk with white men, Mexicans, and Apache Indians," and that you didn't start getting well from alcoholism until you learned that alcohol affected all human beings the same way, and that they all got sober the same way. This simply paralleled debates going on among black Americans in the period after school integration started, where you had those who embraced integration fully on one side of the spectrum, and a new group of black separatists arising on the other extreme, along with everything else in between. The "Interracial Group" in South Bend was not a black separatist group however. The name was merely a signal to prejudiced white people that if they showed up at this meeting, they had better stick their prejudice in their coat pockets, because there were going to be some very good recovering black alcoholics there at that meeting every week. That group finally withered away around 1990 when it became an anachronism. No one was surprised any longer to walk into an AA meeting in South Bend, and see lots of black people at some of these meetings, and you didn't have to "warn people" in advance. (Thank goodness!) What is significant to me is that all the material on early black AA history was included in the material mentioned above, NOT because of any desire to write "black history." Bill Hoover, Brownie, and Goshen Bill in particular were practically worshiped by everybody in AA in north central Indiana, and their memories are still kept in honor to this day, because they spoke with such enormous wisdom, and got so many people sober of all skin colors. They were simply AA at its very best. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3993. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Just for today card From: ricktompkins . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/2/2007 9:11:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Seems the AA usage of the Just For Today card comes and goes, but the Card is part of Al-Anon Family Groups conference-approved literature that is regularly emphasized and distributed for Alateen use. This thread lingers, group, and within the past week I've seen some new interpretations. AAWS never undertook this venture, perhaps the "Where Do I Go From Here?" bookmark works in a similar way... Here's an AA-principle inspired piece, courtesy of a member of another egroup (indiana fourth dimension recovery), with thanks to Jerry O.: JUST FOR TODAY 1. I WILL TRY TO LIVE THROUGH THIS DAY ONLY, AND NOT TACKLE MY WHOLE LIFE'S PROBLEM AT ONCE. I CAN DO THINGS FOR 12 HOURS THAT WOULD APPALL ME IF I HAD TO KEEP IT UP FOR A LIFETIME. THIS ESPECIALLY INCLUDES THE 12 STEPS. 2. I WILL BE HAPPY! THIS ASSUMES THAT WHAT ABRAHAM LINCOLN SAID IS TRUE, THAT "MOST FOLKS ARE ABOUT AS HAPPY AS THEY MAKE UP THEIR MINDS TO BE." GOD INTENDED FOR US TO BE HAPPY, JOYOUS AND FREE. I WILL AVOID THE DELIBERATE MANUFACTURE OF MISERY. 3. I WILL TRY TO ADJUST MYSELF TO WHAT IS, AND NOT TRY TO ADJUST EVERYTHING TO MY DESIRES. I WILL TAKE MY FAMILY, MY BUSINESS, AND MY LICKS AS THEY COME AND FIT MYSELF TO THEM JUST AS THE SERENITY PRAYER SUGGEST. 4. I WILL TAKE CARE OF MY BODY. I WILL EXERCISE IT, CARE FOR IT, NOURISH IT, NOT ABUSE OR NEGLECT IT, SO THAT IT WILL BE A PERFECT MACHINE FOR GOD'S BIDDING. 5. I WILL STRENGTHEN MY MIND THROUGH PRAYER AND MEDITATION. I WILL LEARN SOMETHING USEFUL. I WILL NOT BE A MENTAL LOAFER AND SEEK ONLY THAT WHICH IS COMFORTABLE TO ME. I WILL READ SOMETHING, THE BIG BOOK, SCRIPTURES OR SPIRITUAL LITERATURE, THAT REQUIRES THOUGHT, EFFORT AND CONSIDERATION. 6. I WILL EXERCISE MY SOUL BY SEEKING AND DOING GOD'S WILL. I WILL DO A GOOD DEED AND NOT LET ANYONE KNOW ABOUT IT. I WILL DO AT LEAST TWO THINGS I DO NOT WANT TO DO. I WILL REPRESENT THE PRINCIPLES OF AA IN ALL OF MY AFFAIRS. 7. I WILL BE AGREEABLE SEEKING TO BRING PEACE AND HARMONY, RATHER THAN CONFLICT AND CONFUSION TO EVERY SITUATION. I WILL LOOK AS WELL AS I CAN, DRESS AS BECOMINGLY AS POSSIBLE, TALK LOW, ACT COURTEOUSLY, BE LIBERAL WITH PRAISE, CRITICIZE NOT AT ALL, NOR FIND FAULT WITH ANYTHING. I WILL NOT TRY TO REGULATE OR IMPROVE ANYONE. 8. I WILL WORK THE PROGRAM OF AA TO THE BEST OF MY ABILITY. I WILL TRY TODAY TO ELIMINATE ONE OF MY DEFECTS OF CHARACTER--SELFISHNESS, DISHONESTY, RESENTMENT OR FEAR--FROM MY LIFE TODAY. BUT I WILL NOT FALL PREY TO UNREALISTIC EXPECTATIONS. I WILL SEEK ONLY PROGRESS IN THIS AREA, NOT PERFECTION. 9. I WILL START MY DAY WITH QUIET TIME. THIRTY MINUTES IS DESIRABLE, BUT IF I CAN ONLY DO TWO OR THREE MINUTES THAT IS FAR BETTER THAN NONE AT ALL. IN THIS TIME I WILL SAY PLEASE GOD TAKE MY WILL AND GUIDE MY LIFE. I WILL THANK GOD SO AS TO GET A BETTER PERSPECTIVE ON LIFE. 10. I WILL BE UNAFRAID. I WILL NOT BE AFRAID TO BE HAPPY. I WILL NOT BE AFRAID TO ENJOY WHAT IS BEAUTIFUL. I WILL NOT BE AFRAID TO LOVE AND TO BELIEVE THAT THOSE I LOVE, LOVE ME. I WILL SEEK HONESTY, UNSELFISHNESS, LOVE AND PURITY AS MY DESIRED STATE OF BEING TODAY. 11. I WILL LET GRATITUDE DRIVE MY ACTIONS, RESIST THE TEMPTATION TO GOSSIP AND CRITICIZE, REJECT RESENTMENT, TRY TO BE KIND AND GO OUT OF MY WAY TO DO A GOOD DEED FOR SOMEONE. 12. I WILL OPEN UP MY HEART, MY LIFE AND MY HOME TO THE STILL SUFFERING ALCOHOLIC WITH THE REALIZATION THAT I AM THE RECIPIENT OF ANOTHER ALCOHOLIC'S GRATITUDE. NO TASK SHALL BE TO GREAT AND NO SOUL TO SMALL FOR ME UNDERTAKE AS A THANKFUL BLESSING FOR THE LIFE I DO NOT FULLY DESERVE, BUT SO RICHLY ENJOY. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3994. . . . . . . . . . . . The Bob P Book update to AACOA From: feelgoodcp . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/3/2007 10:41:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I was wondering if anyone had a PDF copy of the book draft that Bob P. (Pearson)(sp) worked on so long and could never get finished, not because of the author but because of the way AA had grown. I guess the conference has just surrendered to the fact it cannot be done. As I recall a draft had been placed before one conference and if so that would be what I would be looking for, the conference literature attendees should have gotten a draft, anyone have any information? Gary R. Please contact me directly at: feelgoodcp@yahoo.com (feelgoodcp at yahoo.com) [From the moderator: the Yahoo group system does not having a "forwarding button," so if you have a copy, please send it directly to Gary.] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3995. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Significant January Dates in A.A. History From: Chris Budnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/3/2007 11:54:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This date should make the list, seeing how Dr. Jung replied within a week: Jan. 23, 1961 - Bill W. sends an appreciation letter, which he considers long overdue, to Dr. Carl Jung for his contribution to AA. Source: http://www.barefootsworld.net/wilsonletter.html Chris IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3996. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Emmet Fox''s secretary and Al S. From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/5/2007 7:06:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Chris, Al Speckman sounds like the name, or is at least close. I believe he was the fellow who wrote the Responsibility Declaration. Re Emmet Fox, I've been a devotee of his writings for more than fifty years. I agree that some of our terms came from Emmet, and I commented on this in a short article which Glenn posted on his website. Please visit: http://www.hindsfoot.com/Fox1.html. One very nice thing about Fox's writings is that he made it a point to avoid words and terms that are not in common usage. Mel Barger melb@accesstoledo.com (melb at accesstoledo.com) ----- Original Message ----- From: chris mahl I believe his name was Al Speckman. I will dig out the reference and send it along. Since his mother was Emmet's secretary, Bill, Ebby, Al and others would get mezzanine seats and listen to many of Emmet's talks here in the city. I am often amazed at how many of the paragraphs in the Big Book so closely emulate turns and phrases of Emmet's. I'll send along another note with more specifics. Best from NYC. Chris M. On 12/31/06, Glenn Chesnut wrote: > > The wikipedia article on Emmet Fox > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmet_Fox > contains the following sentence: > > "Fox's secretary was the mother of one of the > men who worked with Alcoholics Anonymous > co-founder Bill Wilson, and partly as a result > of this connection early AA groups often went > to hear Fox." > > If this statement is correct, can anyone in > our web group give me this man's name? > > Glenn Chesnut, South Bend IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3997. . . . . . . . . . . . Early Grapevine Issues From: John Wikelius . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/1/2007 10:46:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Is there anyone out there who has a complete set of Grapevines? I need covers from 1948 to mid 1950's nov85_gr@graceba.net (nov85_gr at graceba.net) __________________________________ From the moderator: please contact John Wikelius directly at that email address, if you can help him. Remember that the Yahoo group system has no "forward" button that I can click on to forward messages which have been sent to the AAHistoryLovers, where I can send them on to a specific individual. The only three options are "Post" (to the entire group) or "Edit" or "Delete." I am assuming that John needs something not available from the version available online. Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3998. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: Emmet Fox''s secretary and Al S. From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/4/2007 8:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I was under the impression that Al was one of the first editors of the Grapevine and that his mother lived in Cleveland. --- chris mahl wrote: > I believe his name was Al Speckman. > > I will dig out the reference and send it along. > > Since his mother was Emmet's secretary, Bill, > Ebby, Al and others would get mezzanine seats > and listen to many of Emmet's talks here in the > city. > > I am often amazed at how many of the paragraphs > in the Big Book so closely emulate turns and > phrases of Emmet's. > > I'll send along another note with more specifics. > > Best from NYC. > > Chris M. > > > On 12/31/06, Glenn Chesnut > wrote: > > > > The wikipedia article on Emmet Fox > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmet_Fox > > contains the following sentence: > > > > "Fox's secretary was the mother of one of the > > men who worked with Alcoholics Anonymous > > co-founder Bill Wilson, and partly as a result > > of this connection early AA groups often went > > to hear Fox." > > > > If this statement is correct, can anyone in > > our web group give me this man's name? > > > > Glenn Chesnut, South Bend > > > ----------------------- > Chris Mahl > 10 Ventures > PDA 917-902-4980 > Fax 18668230272 > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3999. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Patron saints of alcoholism From: acorelis . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/4/2007 4:22:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Here in Mexico there is a tongue in cheek retablo to the Patron Saint of AA: San Expedido (pedido is slang for drunk). It comes complete with tiny beer bottles under a circle with a slash through it ... quite a charming piece of folk art. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4000. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: Just for today card From: t . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/5/2007 9:31:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I guess I'm confused [again :) ] What I have been thinking this thread was about was a bookmark size card that has "Just for Today" and a prayer by a Fra. Giovanni on one side. And on the other it has a "Tenth Step Checklist". I'll type it out as it appears on what I have and paste it in below. Could someone help me out and clarify what is on the Al-Anon card or the one used in England? ------- side 1 ------- Just For Today I salute you; There is nothing I can give you which you have not got; but there is much, very much that, while I cannot give it, you can take. No Heaven can come to us unless our hearts find rest in today. Take Heaven! No peace lies in the future which is not hidden in this present little instant. Take peace! The gloom of the world is but a shadow. Behind it, yet within our reach is joy. There is radiance and glory in the darkness could we but see, and to see, we have only to look; I beseech you to look. And so, at this time I greet you, not quite as the world sends greetings, but with profound esteem, and with prayer that for you now and forever the day breaks, and the shadows flee away. Fra. Giovanni - 1513 A.D. ------- side 2 ------- TENTH STEP CHECKLIST 1. Conscious Contact (a) Did I start my day with a conscious contact with God as I understand Him? (b) Did I start my day with "Please"? (c) Did I start my day asking for sobriety and guidance? 2. Did I try to be pleasant to everyone? 3. Did I go out of my way to be kind or to do a good deed for someone? 4. Did I demonstrate gratitude in my life? 5. Did I totally reject resentment? 6. Did I resist the PLOMS? (Poor little old me's) 7. Did I indulge in any _________________ ? (Your favorite character defect) 8. Did I resist the temptation to gossip or criticize? 9. Did I have an AA contact today? (reading, phone, or meeting) 10. Did I renew at any time during the day my conscious contact with God as I understand Him? (A quiet time, a meditation break) 11. Will I close my day with "Thanks"? 12. ______________________________________ ______________________________________ ______________________________________ ______________________________________ (Fill in your own or another person's favorite daily aid to sobriety) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4001. . . . . . . . . . . . Emmet Fox''s secretary and Al Steckman (correct spelling) From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/5/2007 7:28:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Chris, I just pulled this up. It appears that the name was "Steckman," not "Speckman." Mel Barger - - - Alcoholics Anonymous and Other Twelve-Step Programs in Relation to New Thought The most important connection of AA and New Thought was by means of the writings of popular New Thought writer Emmet Fox. Igor I. Sikorsky, Jr., in his AA's Godparents: Carl Jung, Emmet Fox, Jack Alexander (Minneapolis: CompCare Publishers, 1990, p. 20), says: Perhaps Emmet Fox's fundamental contribution to AA was the simplicity and power of The Sermon on the Mount as well as his other books that set forth in very simple language the truths of the New Thought philosophy. Sikorski especially refers to Fox's emphasis on living in the present, similar to AA's teaching one to live a day at a time. He finds another similarity in nonownership of property by AA and the Church of the Healing Christ, of Fox, who used to speak in large public halls, primarily in New York. The essential impossibility of holding a mindset inconsistent with one's lifestyle is another parallel. Sikorski says, "Five of the original stories in the Big Book were by early AA members deeply influenced by Emmet Fox (p. 23)." Sikorsky also notes (p. 19) that an early recovering alcoholic who worked with co-founder Bill Wilson was Al Steckman, whose mother was Fox's secretary, and that as a result of this connection early AA groups often would go to listen to Fox. A valuable writing is "New Thought and 12 Step Recovery From Addiction: Practical American Spiritualities" by Kenneth E. Hart, from Spiritual and Religious Issues in Behaviour Change, 9: 3-5. Hart's longer presentation on this topic to the Society for the Study of Metaphysical Religion is expected to be published in its journal. ----- Original Message ----- From: chris mahl Subject: Re: Emmet Fox's secretary and Al S. I believe his name was Al Speckman. I will dig out the reference and send it along. Since his mother was Emmet's secretary, Bill, Ebby, Al and others would get mezzanine seats and listen to many of Emmet's talks here in the city. I am often amazed at how many of the paragraphs in the Big Book so closely emulate turns and phrases of Emmet's. I'll send along another note with more specifics. Best from NYC. Chris M. On 12/31/06, Glenn Chesnut wrote: > > The wikipedia article on Emmet Fox > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmet_Fox > contains the following sentence: > > "Fox's secretary was the mother of one of the > men who worked with Alcoholics Anonymous > co-founder Bill Wilson, and partly as a result > of this connection early AA groups often went > to hear Fox." > > If this statement is correct, can anyone in > our web group give me this man's name? > > Glenn Chesnut, South Bend IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4002. . . . . . . . . . . . Just for Today: Australian version From: robin_foote . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/5/2007 8:28:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Guys, This is the text of the Australian Just For Today Card. This is published by AA Australia and is available at all if not most meetings. I've been sober for two decades and can remember it being around for ever. Robin F. Sunshine Coast, Queensland 'Perfect one day, ideal the next'. _____ JUST FOR TODAY I will try to live through this day only and not tackle my whole life's problems at once. I can do something for twelve hours that would appall me if I felt that I had to keep it up for a lifetime. JUST FOR TODAY I will be happy. This assumes to be true what Abraham Lincoln said, "that most folks are as happy as they make up their minds to be". JUST FOR TODAY I will adjust to what is, and not try to adjust everything to my own desires. I will take my 'luck' as it comes and fit myself to it. JUST FOR TODAY 1 will try to strengthen my mind. I will study. I will learn something useful. I will not be a mental loafer. I will read something that requires mental effort and concentration. JUST FOR TODAY I will exercise my soul in three ways. I will do somebody a good turn and not get found out. If anybody knows of it, it will not count. I will do at least two things I do not want to do - just for exercise. I will not show anyone that my feelings are hurt; they may be hurt, but today I will not show it. JUST FOR TODAY I will be agreeable, will look as well as I can, dress becomingly, talk low, act courteously, criticise not one bit, not find fault with anything and not try to improve or regulate anybody except myself. JUST FOR TODAY I will have a programme - I may not be able to follow it exactly, but I will have it. I will save myself from two pests; hurry and indecision. JUST FOR TODAY I will have a quiet half hour all by myself, and relax. During this half hour, some time, I will try to get a better perspective of my life. JUST FOR TODAY I will be unafraid, especially I will not be afraid to enjoy what is beautiful, and to believe that as I give to the world, so the world will give to me. Published in Australia by the National Office of Alcoholics Anonymous, Australia IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4003. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Emmet Fox''s secretary and Al S. From: Doug B. . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/7/2007 2:59:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII My mother-in-law used to attend many of Emmet Fox's talks in New York in the 30's and 40's. She said she would see Bill W. at many of them and that Bill always had a group of men with him. When I asked her if there was anything about Bill's group that she remembered, like fidgeting, coughing, smoking, talking...etc? She replied that the only thing that stood out, besides the fact that they all stayed close together, was that they were always "very well dressed". Doug B. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4004. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Patron saints of alcoholism From: Arkie Koehl . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/5/2007 4:40:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Also beloved among office workers and laborers in Mexico is San Lunes (Saint Monday), whose day is regularly observed by weekend bingers unable to show up :-) Arkie Koehl Honolulu On Jan 4, 2007, at 11:22, acorelis wrote: > Here in Mexico there is a tongue in cheek retablo > to the Patron Saint of AA: San Expedido (pedido > is slang for drunk). > > It comes complete with tiny beer bottles under > a circle with a slash through it ... quite a > charming piece of folk art. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4005. . . . . . . . . . . . Was there an early Grapevine editor from Cleveland? From: kilroy@ceoexpress.com> . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/6/2007 7:37:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I think I remember reading that there was an early editor of the Grapevine who came to us from Cleveland, and that his name was Tom X. or Tom Y. And that he also wrote our preamble. Was he one of the Tom's mentioned in "Pass It On"? Can anybody tell me more about him? Kilroy W. 4021 Club Philadelphia PA IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4006. . . . . . . . . . . . Map for Akron tour From: mchugh1652 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/6/2007 8:04:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I finally found the internet page with a map of the historic sites on it. You can see it here and print it out: http://akronaa.org/Archives/map/map.html As others have pointed out a guided tour is much better. Enjoy. Peter IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4007. . . . . . . . . . . . Pink cloud and Pink Seven From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/10/2007 3:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: Rdeneve670@cs.com (Rdeneve670 at cs.com) My name is Linda and I am an alcoholic, by the Grace of God sober 14 years. I am trying to find where the pink cloud is referenced, probably before the printing of the big book, would it be? Because it is just in little quote marks in the Big Book, as though they were referencing some other material. What does it mean? What is 'the pink seven' and is that still the same topic or a different one? - - - From the moderator: I checked in the two online concordances to the Big Book which I use: http://www.royy.com/concord.html http://www.anonpress.org/bbindex/ The only place I could find the word pink used is in the famous and well known passage on p. 304 in the fourth edition of the Big Book (p. 348 in the third edition), in the story "Physician Heal Thyself!" The author was trying to get sober by reading and studying books ALONE, partly because he was a highly educated surgeon and did not think that the ordinary everyday people at the AA meetings (the butchers and bakers and carpenters) had anything to teach him. But they were spiritual books that he was reading, he said to himself, so that meant that he was working the program. And HE was an intellectual, and MUCH smarter than all these ordinary people in the program. (Lord help us, we ALL think we're smarter than everybody else in the meeting room when we first come in!) He said that, for a while, "I was way up on a pink cloud which is known as Pink Seven," but that he eventually started to feel miserable again, and started yearning to go back out and start drinking again in spite of all his reading. I don't see any quotation marks around the phrase, so I'm not sure what you mean by that part of your question. But I still think you're talking about the same passage I'm looking at. Maybe you saw it reprinted in an intergroup bulletin where somebody put quotation marks around it. At any rate, the message in this story was that the author didn't start getting a genuinely good new life in the program until he started ALSO paying attention to what the ordinary everyday people at the meetings had to teach him about leading a good life, and until he started actually working the twelve steps, and putting what he was learning into action in simple little everyday changes in his behavior (such as the way he acted about washing the dishes at home and that kind of thing). - - - In American slang back then, when you said that someone was "on a pink cloud," you meant that the person was in a state of temporary artificial euphoria. Being "on a pink cloud" meant that you had turned off all of your critical faculties and were temporarily living in this marvelous fantasy world where nothing ever went wrong or could go wrong. If you went out on a date with some guy, and came back feeling all romantic and starry eyed, and convinced that you had found "Mr. Wonderful," one of your friends might laugh and say, "well, you're on a pink cloud now, but wait and see what the guy looks like after a month or two of going out with him on a steady basis. Wait and find out how much you end up seeing him after football season starts in a couple of weeks!" Being "on a pink cloud" meant that you were living in a dream world, as opposed to living in the real, everyday world. It is easy to work ourselves up into a temporary "pink cloud" by reading spiritual books that talk about loving all humanity, or "feeling one with the all," or loving Jesus, or by standing around reciting the responsibility pledge with our eyes all starry. And there are people who try to work the AA program by hyping themselves up in that way, without doing a single thing to change their basic character, or to change their ways of actually behaving in everyday life. CHANGED BY GRACE is the mark of true twelve step spiritual progress. Real "life changing" as the Oxford Group put it. We have to start working on using the power of grace (freely given to us for our use) to heal all of our character defects. These are the character defects which make us angry all the time, have us attacking other people all the time and trying to bully other people into doing things our way, criticizing everybody else in the program and starting arguments all the time, refusing to help out on washing dishes, moving chairs and tables, shoveling snow, going to the grocery store to get milk or a loaf of bread. When we begin real spiritual growth, we start to heal these character defects, and then we start actually treating other people differently in all phases of our ordinary everyday life. I've seen people spend years trying to artificially hype themselves up onto a pink cloud by reading the Bible (or the Torah or the Koran), talking all the time about Jesus (or Moses or Mohammed or Buddha), or reciting the Four Absolutes with pious looks on their faces. The message of this story in the Big Book was that these things are NOT good things to do, if the only reason why we are doing them, is to artificially put ourselves into a temporary "pink cloud" euphoria. Or to put it all in five simple words, "faith without works is dead." - - - In ancient and medieval spirituality, when someone had a spiritual experience, it was believed that the soul had been transported up to one of the seven crystal spheres which they believed surrounded the planet earth. Each of these seven crystal spheres was called a "heaven." So somebody who had had a really ecstatic spiritual experience would say that "my soul was transported up to the seventh heaven," this being the best and most vivid kind of spiritual experience. In this passage in the Big Book, the writer is jokingly combining the two ideas and saying, in effect, "I wasn't just up on a pink cloud, I was up on the highest and most euphoric kind of pink cloud: Pink Seven!!!!" - - - On the seven heavens, see for example the last part of Dante's Divine Comedy, the part called the Paradiso, where his soul climbs up level by level until he has arrived at the seventh heaven (presided over by St. Bernard, the great medieval mystic), and he is granted a brief overpowering vision of the divine Love and Light which illumines and moves the entire universe: l’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle (the Love which moves the sun and all the other stars) But you see, Dante's vision is the right kind of spiritual experience. That is because he paid his dues first! He had first journeyed through his own personal inner hell in the Inferno (the first section of the Divine Comedy) and had learned that, surprisingly enough, God did not make any human soul stay in hell. All the souls in hell are allowed to leave the moment that they want to. The only requirement is that they admit that they were wrong! As long as they keep on giving alibis and excuses for their behavior, and blaming it on other people, they will never get out of hell. And then Dante had some more dues that he had to pay. In the middle part of the Divine Comedy, he had to climb the mountain of Purgatory, which he envisaged as a seven step recovery program, based on healing the character defects described by the Seven Deadly Sins. (The Mountain of Purgatory means "the Cleansing Mountain," from the Latin word purgo which means to clean, cleanse, wash off, purify.) Only after he had done the spiritual work which was necessary in order to heal his Anger, Pride, Envy, and so on, could he begin rising up through the Seven Heavens and arrive at the kind of authentic spiritual experience that he describes at the end. - - - What the little story in the Big Book is doing, is warning us that we can fool ourselves into believing that spiritual experience is gained by artificially hyping ourselves into "pious" emotional states, and singing hymns about how much we love Jesus (or Moses or Buddha or Mohammed), and talking all the time about how spiritual we are (in order to pridefully impress other people). The most we can get that way is artificial "pink cloud" spirituality. It is easy to get on a pink cloud by going to church for an hour on Sunday morning (or synagogue or a Buddhist temple), where I can get into an artificial emotional state, using the stained glass windows and pious music. But there are 168 hours in a week. It is in the other 167 hours that I need to learn how to start changing my behavior, where there are no stained glass windows and no solemn organ music playing in the background. Twelve step meetings force us to learn how to develop a spirituality which will work when there are no stained glass windows and no organ music and no chanting of beloved religious texts going on in the background: when the kids are screaming, the boss is criticizing my work, and the other people in the AA committee which is setting up the picnic aren't acting like I want them to act! And real spiritual experience can only be gained by FIRST journeying down into the hellish regions of our own minds and ferreting out all the anger and selfishness and self pity and fear, and taking responsibility for doing something about these character defects, and THEN by putting these new insights into action by changing the way we live every aspect of our daily lives. When I first learn how to help out with washing the dishes, when I first learn how to stop bullying other people and starting up quarrels and arguments all the time, when I learn how to stop attacking other people and putting them down all the time, when I learn how to start treating everyone around me (without exception) with the kind of real human respect with which I would wish to be treated, then and only then will I become fit someday (perhaps if God is willing) to ascend to the seventh heaven and obtain the vision of the true divine Light and Love which illumines and moves the entire universe. "Pink Seven" isn't real. That's me using my own fantasies to create an artificial and temporary illusion. The numinous reality of the divine Light and Love and Glory spreading through all the world IS real. But I have to CHANGE ME to obtain that. Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) - - - P.S. USING THE SEARCH FUNCTION ON THE MESSAGE BOARD If you go the Message section of the AAHistoryLovers at http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/messages there is a box at the top where you can search through all the past messages for particular words or phrases. If you put quotation marks around a set of words, it will search for those words in that order. A lot of the standard questions have already been asked in past years, so it can save a lot of time if a search is done first, to see if the question may already have been answered. So I'm trying to encourage people to use the search function, so they can get a quick answer (when one is already available) instead of having to wait around for several days. In this case though, when I did a search for "pink cloud" and "pink seven," the messages that were posted gave part of the explanation, but not all of it, so I'm filling in a few of the missing gaps in my response to your question. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4008. . . . . . . . . . . . Just for Today: Irish Version From: funen99 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/7/2007 4:37:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I had a look today at the Irish "Just For Today" Card, which is approved by the AA General Service Conference in Ireland and noted on the back page "re-printed by Kind Permission AA GSO, GB". Fiona JUST FOR TODAY I will try to live through this day only and not tackle my whole life problem at once. I can do something for twelve hours that would appall me if I felt that I had to keep it up for a lifetime. JUST FOR TODAY I will be happy. Most folks are as happy as they make up their minds to be. JUST FOR TODAY I will adjust to what is, and not try to adjust everything to my own desires. I will take my 'luck' as it comes and fit myself to it. JUST FOR TODAY 1 will try to strengthen my mind. I will study. I will learn something useful. I will not be a mental loafer. I will read something that requires mental effort and concentration. JUST FOR TODAY I will exercise my soul in three ways. I will do somebody a good turn and not get found out. If anybody knows of it, it will not count. I will do at least two things I do not want to do - just for exercise. I will not show anyone that my feelings are hurt; they may be hurt, but today I will not show it. JUST FOR TODAY I will be agreeable, will look as well as I can, dress becomingly, talk low, act courteously, criticise not one bit, not find fault with anything and not try to improve or regulate anybody except myself. JUST FOR TODAY I will have a programme - I may not be able to follow it exactly, but I will have it. I will save myself from two pests; hurry and indecision. JUST FOR TODAY I will have a quiet half hour all by myself, and relax. During this half hour, some time, I will try to get a better perspective of my life. JUST FOR TODAY I will be unafraid, especially I will not be afraid to enjoy what is beautiful, and to believe that as I give to the world, so the world will give to me. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4009. . . . . . . . . . . . Legal to reprint Just for Today: Australian version? From: vvpeachy@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/8/2007 11:25:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Is this copyrighted? Or may another Intergroup Office produce these and sell for cost without any legal infringement? South Jersey Ginger We've been asked about these cards lots - especially Philadelphia's green card. The green card has been requested because our office is right across the Bridge. Our Literature Committee is interested in producing, but not interested in any legal confusion. Thank You for ALL of your input! Lots of Love and Laughter, Ginger F. and Ron B. Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God. _____ In a message dated 1/6/2007 4:02:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, gentle_bear@optusnet.com.au writes: Hi Guys, This is the text of the Australian Just For Today Card. This is published by AA Australia and is available at all if not most meetings. I've been sober for two decades and can remember it being around for ever. Robin F. Sunshine Coast, Queensland 'Perfect one day, ideal the next'. _____ JUST FOR TODAY I will try to live through this day only and not tackle my whole life's problems at once. I can do something for twelve hours that would appall me if I felt that I had to keep it up for a lifetime. JUST FOR TODAY I will be happy. This assumes to be true what Abraham Lincoln said, "that most folks are as happy as they make up their minds to be". JUST FOR TODAY I will adjust to what is, and not try to adjust everything to my own desires. I will take my 'luck' as it comes and fit myself to it. JUST FOR TODAY 1 will try to strengthen my mind. I will study. I will learn something useful. I will not be a mental loafer. I will read something that requires mental effort and concentration. JUST FOR TODAY I will exercise my soul in three ways. I will do somebody a good turn and not get found out. If anybody knows of it, it will not count. I will do at least two things I do not want to do - just for exercise. I will not show anyone that my feelings are hurt; they may be hurt, but today I will not show it. JUST FOR TODAY I will be agreeable, will look as well as I can, dress becomingly, talk low, act courteously, criticise not one bit, not find fault with anything and not try to improve or regulate anybody except myself. JUST FOR TODAY I will have a programme - I may not be able to follow it exactly, but I will have it. I will save myself from two pests; hurry and indecision. JUST FOR TODAY I will have a quiet half hour all by myself, and relax. During this half hour, some time, I will try to get a better perspective of my life. JUST FOR TODAY I will be unafraid, especially I will not be afraid to enjoy what is beautiful, and to believe that as I give to the world, so the world will give to me. Published in Australia by the National Office of Alcoholics Anonymous, Australia IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4010. . . . . . . . . . . . Recordings of Emmet Fox speaking? From: sbanker914@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/9/2007 7:04:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does anyone know if any of Emmet Fox's talks in New York City were recorded and if they are available somewhere? Susan NYC - - - dougb@aahistory.com writes: My mother-in-law used to attend many of Emmet Fox's talks in New York in the 30's and 40's. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4011. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Pink cloud and Pink Seven From: James Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/10/2007 5:39:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The AA Grapevine published an article by Dr. Harry Tiebout in September 1955 titled The Pink Cloud and After. In the first few years of AA's existance it was a fairly coomon occurance to see a person take a one or two-year cake and then get drunk. The Fellowship was so concerned that it asked Dr. Tiebout to investigate this phenomena. What he found (and the article deals with) is the fact that people with any lenght of sobriety in the early days were not in abundance so the person who achieved a year or two was "special" and some them came to believe that they were "special" too. Some got drunk. Once it became common to have people with some time, the phenomena stopped. Tiebout refered to this as the "Pink Cloud." Jim IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4012. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Legal to reprint Just for Today? From: spebsqsa@att.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/10/2007 11:04:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There are literally hundreds of web sites with the "Just for Today" poem. Some include nice artwork. Most say "Author Unknown" if anything. A few attribute it to Sibyl F. Partridge, probably a song lyric with Blanche Ebert Seaver. (Someone else can verify that.) I'm not a lawyer and I don't even play one at meetings but I'd say nobody is going to come after you for being the 500th person to print a card with that well-known poem on it. NOTE: I did find one site which apparently has the song as an audio file but it refused to play it for me because it is, "Not available in the United States and Canada due to possible copyright restrictions." - - - From: Tom Hickcox (cometkazie1 at cox.net) The AlAnon Just for Today bookmark is copyrighted. Tommy in Baton Rouge - - - From Glenn Chesnut (glennccc at sbcglobal.net) Sometimes the copyright applies only to the typesetting and artwork on that particular copy. Where if you reset the type, it's O.K., but if you photocopy it and start selling the photocopies you're infringing on their copyright. For AlAnon to copyright the text itself, they would have to show that they either wrote the text, or purchased the copyright from the person who actually wrote it. So the question is, not who has put out a copy with the words "copyrighted" on it, but who originally wrote it, and what the chain of ownership is, if any? And once something has shown up on hundreds of websites and cards sold in bookstores with nobody complaining, it will be considered as having fallen over into the public domain, and anybody will be able to use it who wants to. (The earliest edition of A Course on Miracles fell into the public domain, I think for that reason among others, and anybody can reprint that edition now, or post it on the internet.) The Just For Today card sounds to me like it's already turned into public domain, but you'd need to check with a good copyright and patent attorney to make sure. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4013. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Legal to reprint Just for Today? From: vvpeachy@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/10/2007 7:29:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Thank you so much for the input. I will bring this to my Intergroup Literature Committee and allow the committee system to prevail. I know our IG doesn't have sufficient money to hire a patent attorney. I'm sure that we can move a word or two to prevent it from being exact. ALL further suggestions are gladly accepted. Thanks again! South Jersey Ginger - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lots of Love and Laughter. Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4014. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr Bob''s letter to Ruth Hock on Oxford group and AA From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/11/2007 3:21:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have been given to believe that on Jan. 5, 1939, Dr. Bob told Ruth Hock in a letter that AA has "to get away from the Oxford Group atmosphere." Can anyone in the group tell me where I could find a copy of this letter? I understand that the basic issue was created by the Protestant/Catholic problems that existed at that time. The Oxford Group was a Protestantant evangelical movement, which meant that some Roman Catholic priests were telling the alcoholics among their parishioners that if they joined an Oxford-Group-linked AA group, they would be committing a mortal sin, would be excommunicated and barred from the sacraments of the Roman Catholic Church, and would be condemned to hell in the world to come. George IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4015. . . . . . . . . . . . Australian Just for Today Card LEGAL ISSUES From: robin_foote . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/11/2007 7:37:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Guys and sober greetings, Ginger F. and Ron B. asked if this card may be copyright protected. I have no idea about copyright of the Australian 'Just for Today' card for reprinting purposes. I'll leave that up to the legal eagles, the Australian National Service Office and World Service Office - and maybe even Al-anon. I have included the contact details for Australia below as well as the liturature catalogue reference. Regards Robin F. Sunshine Coast, Australia. Near the Great Barrier Reef - home of Nimo. _____ 08S-04 Just for Today Card AU $0.25 National Office AA (GSO) National Office of AA in Australia 48 Firth St, Arncliffe NSW 2205 Phone (02) 9599 8866 Fax (02) 9599 8844 E-mail: national.office@aa.org.au Website: www.aa.org.au IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4016. . . . . . . . . . . . AA Groups and Membership (Spring 1971) From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/14/2007 8:38:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Groups and Members Spring 1971 (from the April 1971 General Service Conference) United States: 9,541 Groups, 167,167 Members, 146 Lone Members Canada: 1,667 Groups, 25,957 Members, 51 Lone Members In Hospitals: 767 Groups, 18,604 Members In Prisons: 925 Groups, 32,481 Members Internationalists: 412 Members Total Above: 12,900 Groups, 244,818 Members Overseas (1970 count): 3,559 Groups, 66,632 Members Totals: 16,459 Groups, 311,450 Members (including non-reported members, actual membership is estimated at more than 500,000 worldwide) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4017. . . . . . . . . . . . The two 1947 editions of The Little Red Book From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/14/2007 2:32:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Tommy Hickcox in Baton Rouge (cometkazie1 at cox.net) SUMMARY 1946: first edition/printing of The Little Red Book 1947: the one with the red cover seems to be the second edition/printing 1947: the one with the maroon cover seems to be the third edition/printing [Moderator's note: Ed Webster refers to them as "printings," but when substantial changes are made in the text, which is what Ed was doing at this stage, we normally refer to them today as separate "editions."] * * * * * * The Little Red Book had two printings in the year 1947 and there are differences between the two volumes. Opinions have been offered which of the volumes was printed first and which second. The covers, title and copyright pages are as follows: * * * * * * One’s cover is distinctively red while the other’s is a dull maroon. - - - The title page of the red volume has: An Interpretation of THE TWELVE STEPS of the ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS PROGRAM - - - While the maroon volume has: An Interpretation of Alcoholics Anonymous Program of the The Twelve Steps - - - The copyright pages are identical except the red volume adds: First Printing August, 1946 Second Printing January, 1947 * * * * * * This would imply to me that the red volume was the second printing. Printing numbers were not published again until much later. It seemed to me one could make an educated guess as to which came first by comparing text. If there was a change in the text, did the change carry over to the printings of 1948 and 1949 and assigned numbers four and five? Did one volume have material in common with the 4th and 5th printings and not the other 1947 printing? * * * * * * A quick check of the first several pages gives enough material to make an educated guess. Author’s Note: red is one paragraph of 17 lines; maroon is three paragraphs of 29 lines; 4th/5th: 3 paragraphs of 23 lines but the lines have more words in them. The wording is identical to the maroon. p. 9; para 4, sent 1: red-The new comer often . . .; maroon-The newcomer too often . . .; 4th/5th-The newcomer too often . . . p. 10; para 3; last sentence of maroon has * to footnote: Note paragraph 2, page 44, in the book, “ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS”; red does not have the footnote. 4th and 5th have the footnote. p.11; para 2, sent 1: red: The alcoholics who have recovered through the Alcoholics Anonymous movement . . .; maroon: The alcoholics who have recovered through the Alcoholics Anonymous Fellowship . . .; 4th/5th: Fellowship * * * * * * There is a list of reasons for failures in the A.A. program starting at the bottom of p. 11. Red has 9 reasons listed and maroon has 10. The first seven reasons are exactly the same, but the rest differ: Red 8. Those who have not been harmed sufficiently by alcohol often fail because drinking is not a matter of life and death with them. This group generally involves the men and women with relatively short alcoholic histories. Maroon 8. Those who see in alcoholism a moral problem rather than an illness. Red 9. Those who accept only a part of the Twelve-Step Program, who will not try to live it in its entirety. Those who wish to put a distorted selfish interpretation on all of the steps for purposes of their own convenience. Maroon 9. Those with relatively short alcoholic histories, to whom drinking is more an inconvenience than a matter of life or death. Maroon 10. [There is no Red 10.] Those who accept only a part of the Twelve-Step Program, who will not try to live it in its entirety. Those who wish to put a distorted selfish interpretation on all of the steps for purposes of their own convenience. Note-This is the same as Red 9. 4th/5th: 4th the same as maroon. 5th adds another reason. p. 13, para 1: Red has alcoholism as a disease and Maroon as an illness. 4th/5th have illness. p. 13, para 2, last sentence: Maroon adds to the end of the sentence--have faith--keep open minded, and adds the footnote- *Read page 50 in the book, “ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS” 4th/5th have the addition. I did not proceed farther with this analysis as I thought there was enough evidence to consider the red volume to be the second printing and the maroon volume to be the third printing as the changes the maroon volume has were carried on to later printings. I unfortunately do not have a first printing. Tommy in Baton Rouge IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4018. . . . . . . . . . . . Photo of Peabody From: Joseph Trevaskis . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/14/2007 6:59:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi all, Does anyone have or know where I can get a photo of Richard Rodgers Peabody? I've been working on a project of putting together photos of those who influenced AA's beginnings. Thanks. In Love and Service, Joe - - - Moderator's note: Peabody was the author of "The Common Sense of Drinking" (Boston: Little, Brown and Co., 1930, 1931). There is an Adobe Acrobat PDF version of the book available online at: http://www.aabibliography.com/pdffiles/CommonSenseDrinkPeabody.pdf IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4019. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr Bob''s letter to Ruth Hock on Oxford group and AA From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/11/2007 12:46:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII If a letter was sent to Ruth Hock, it would be on file in the GSO Archives in New York. YIS Shakey Mike Gwirtz REMEMBER: 11th National Archives Workshop Sept.6-9 in Phoenix,Az IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4020. . . . . . . . . . . . We The People Radio program 1939 From: leeannplatner . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/11/2007 8:59:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII We are searching for an episode of WE THE PEOPLE radio program from April 1939 featuring Gabrielle Heatter with guest, Morgan R and his discussion of AA. We produced the program, and have a transcript, but we do not have a copy of the audio recording and the holdings we donated to the Library of Congress do not include this episode. We would love to borrow and/or pay to have a dub made if any member has an actual copy of this recording. Please contact me if you have or know where we can find this recording. Please call or contact me at LeeAnn.platner@nbcuni.com (LeeAnn.platner at nbcuni.com) Thank you so much! LeeAnn Platner Director, Clip Licensing NBC Studios and Bravo TV 100 Universal City Plaza Building 4250 3rd Floor Universal City, CA 91608 818-777-5147 Phone 818-866-2574 Fax IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4021. . . . . . . . . . . . The early printings of The Little Red Book From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/14/2007 6:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I think I have gotten this right now, at http://hindsfoot.org/ed02.html, where I have tried to lay out the sequence of printings of The Little Red Book from 1946 to 1949. The question of whether there were two print runs in 1949 is based on information from Jack H. in Scottsdale, Arizona, but unfortunately the accuracy of my statement about these two print runs depends on how good my memory was of what Jack told me. I have worded it now as follows: _______________________________ The first printing appeared in 1946, two separate printings were done in 1947, there was another printing in 1948, and Jack H. says that there were actually two in 1949. Ed Webster kept on making changes in the book during that period, and in fact kept on making changes in the book all the way to the end of his life in 1971. Tommy H. (Baton Rouge, Louisiana) had made a study of the two 1947 printings in Message 4017 in the AAHistoryLovers, see http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/4017 He established that the one with the distinctively red cover has to be the earlier of the two 1947 printings. It says that it came out in January 1947. The other 1947 printing, which has a dull maroon cover, must have appeared later in that year. This later printing embodies a number of textual changes which were carried over to the fourth and fifth printings. My statement above that there were two 1949 printings is based on a telephone conversation which I had with Jack H. in Scottsdale, Arizona. If my memory serves me correctly, Jack told me that the only difference between the two was that the first printing had a minor typesetting error (a segment of text inserted upside down or something of that sort) and was recalled as soon as this was discovered, so that not many copies of the first printing actually got out. But I have not verified this with my own eyes. Jack had Ed Webster's papers, and may have found this out from correspondence between Ed and the printer. Let us however not quote my statement that there were two 1949 printings as gospel truth, until someone can find a copy of a faulty version of the 1949 printing and corroborate this. I am having to remember a long ago telephone conversation, and my memory of what Jack actually said could be faulty. And Tommy H. in Baton Rouge says that the 1950 edition says that it was the sixth printing, the 1951 edition says that it was the seventh printing, and so on. So if there were two print runs made in 1949 as Jack H. says, it also seems clear that Ed Webster did not regard these two print runs as separate "printings" or "editions" in the full sense. - - - - - - So perhaps the best way of putting this would be to list the editions as follows: 1st edition August 1946 2nd edition January 1947 (distinctively red cover) 3rd edition later in 1947 (dull maroon cover) 4th edition 1948 5th edition 1949 (?? which may have had two print runs with a typesetting error in the first print run ??) 6th edition 1950 7th edition 1951 (and so on) - - - - - - Jack H. argued that the 1949 edition should be taken as a kind of benchmark version for many purposes, since this was the last edition where Dr. Bob had had any input into the book. And we should remember that changes made in The Little Red Book after Ed Webster's death on June 3, 1971, which are numerous, were done by editors at the Hazelden Foundation who believed that they "could write better" about alcoholism than Ed Webster. The current Hazelden version is not bad, and is perfectly usable for newcomers to the A.A. program, but I have not found any rewordings which they made which were an improvement in any way at all, and the idea of rewriting a classic text without warning the reader about it in a footnote is something which no responsible publisher ever does. You don't rewrite Shakespeare or Hemingway or Faulkner or Mark Twain when you publish new editions. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4022. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr. Bob''s Signature, Kay Miller, Oscar Futrell From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/19/2007 1:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Shakey Mike here, I recently purchased a book from Dr Bob's library that has his signature in it(full name) that belonged to his daughter, who was at that time (1951) Mrs E. W. Gailbraith, 26 W. York Street, Akron 10, Oh. Dr. Bob signed his name as R H Smith 855 Ardmore Ave. Akron 1943. This book is the only book in the Kay Stewart Collection that is signed by Dr. Bob. It was given by Sue to Kay Stewart who was involved in the beginnings of the Dr. Bob house. Is there any more history of how Dr. Bob's house came to be? Any more on Kay Miller other than an old post on AAHL? Any info on Oscar Futral who is the first Akron man to carry the message behind the walls? The newly posted collection is available to see at http://abookman.com/aacatalog.htm It shows alot of early Akron AA memorabelia. Other than Dr Bob's Big Book at GSO Archives and his books at Dr Bob's house and Akron Intergroup, are there many other Dr. Bob signatures out there? If you want a copy of that inscription from his book please e-mail me at: Shakey1aa@aol.com (Shakey1aa at aol.com) Yours in Service, Shakey Mike Gwirtz Philadelphia, Pennysylvania ____________________________________ Mike, He signed a copy of the first edition of The Little Red Book which Ed Webster had sent him, before passing it on to someone else. See http://hindsfoot.org/ed02.html It ended up in Jack H.'s collection (Scottsdale, Arizona). Glenn Chesnut IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4023. . . . . . . . . . . . Joe and Charlie workshops From: dobbo101 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/17/2007 5:46:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Can anyone tell me if the Big Book workshops that Joe and Charlie once ran are still going on. How would one contact them? I'm in the UK and would love to go to one. My e-mail address is: dobbo101@yahoo.com (dobbo101 at yahoo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4024. . . . . . . . . . . . Later history of the Oxford Group From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/22/2007 12:33:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There is a nice little summary of the later history of the Oxford Group at: http://www.uk.initiativesofchange.org/index.php?sn=2,2#top Could AA have in fact remained linked to the Oxford Group at all, given the inner dynamic of the OG and the way they were evolving? In AA, we tend to focus only on the parts of the Oxford Group that we are interested in, and ignore other things that were essential parts of the movement. A true assessment of the nature of the Oxford Group in the 1930's however has to make sense out of where the movement has ended up in 2007. Otherwise we are falsifying our picture of the Oxford Group which Bill W. and Dr. Bob had joined. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 1908 Frank Buchman Buchman, an American Lutheran minister of Swiss descent who was the originator of Initiatives of Change, has a spiritual experience of release from bitterness in crucial relationships that alters the course of his life. 1927 The Oxford Group Buchman's experience in 1908 convinces him that moral compromise destroys human character and relationships and that moral clarity is a prerequisite for building a just society. His ideas take root at Oxford and in some American universities and his work becomes known as the 'Oxford Group'. 1935 Alcoholics Anonymous Buchman's ideas spread through the 1930s into many sectors and on to other continents. Alcoholics Anonymous is established in 1935 as a direct result of the liberating experiences which some people find through their contact with the Oxford Group. 1938 NAME CHANGE: Moral Re-Armament As European nations re-arm for war, Buchman calls for 'moral and spiritual re-armament' as the way to build a 'hate-free, fear-free, greed-free world'. Following World War II, Moral Re-Armament (MRA), as it becomes known, launches a program of moral and spiritual reconstruction to foster change in private and public life based on a change in motivation and character. Buchman also emphasised the importance of faith. He believed that God has a purpose for people's lives and for mankind as a whole, and he encouraged people to seek God's wisdom in regular times of silence and reflection. Buchman, a devout Christian, described Moral Re-Armament as 'the good road of an ideology inspired by God upon which all can unite. Catholic, Jew and Protestant, Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist and Confucianist - all find they can change, where needed and travel along this good road together.' 1946 Caux, Switzerland MRA opens an international conference center in Caux, Switzerland, which is made possible through the generosity and hard work of hundreds of Swiss citizens. 1947 Germans to Caux At a time when any contact with the Germans is extremely difficult, Buchman and his colleagues invite Germans to Caux. Over the next four years growing number of Germans and French come to Caux and their encounters become the basis of a massive development in reconciliation. Buchman is later decorated by both the German and French governments for his contribution to European reconciliation. 1949 Reconciliation Conferences at Caux and similar ones at Mackinac Island in the US, achieve further public recognition through several other major contributions to international developments in the post-war years. Notably the part played in the reconciliation of Japan with her South-East Asian neighbors, and in the achievement of independence by several African countries without major bloodshed. 1950 MRA Expands By the 1950s, casts of plays presenting MRA's ideas are traveling all over the world. Centers are established in Latin America, India, Japan and several countries in Africa. 1961 Buchman Dies When Buchman dies in 1961, the former British political journalist Peter Howard assumes the leadership of MRA, but four years later he too dies. Without a clearly identified leadership to ensure cohesion, unresolved differences among those taking responsibility begins to surface. 1965 Up With People In some countries a new approach is tried, concentrating on the younger generation, and in others more traditional ways continue. Up With People, which develops into a global educational program, becomes a spin-off from MRA. After a period of uncertainty and dissension, trust is slowly re-established, with valuable lessons learned. 1968 Asia Plateau 1968 sees the opening of Asia Plateau - a major international center for the training of people from industry, education and other national sectors in Panchgani, India. 1970s Period of Consolidation With reconciliation a primary need in many parts of the world, much of MRA's work concentrates on supporting peace-making initiatives in Africa and Asia. 1980s Britain During this period in Britain some of the work is focused on bettering industrial relations at the big car and steel manufacturing plants, important at that time for economic stability, and some on the growing multiculturalism of the country's large cities. 1990s Collapse of Communism The collapse of Communism triggers new needs and opportunities for the rebuilding of democracy in the post-Soviet world. This becomes one of the major focal points in the 90s. 1990s New Initiatives Other initiatives that develop throughout the 90s are Hope in the Cities, which is created to bridge the racial divide in the US; Clean Election Campaigns in Taiwan, Brazil and Kenya; and a continuing concern for the creation of moral and spiritual infrastructure for development in both rich and poorer nations. 2001 Name Change: INITIATIVES OF CHANGE With the approach of the new millennium, there is world-wide recognition that the words 'moral re-armament' no longer hold the same resonance as they did in 1938. In 2001 the new name Initiatives of Change (IofC) is announced to the world's media by the Caux President, Dr. Cornelio Sommaruga (former President of the international Red Cross), and Professor Rajmohan Gandhi, grandson of the Mahatma. 2006 Today While ways of expressing truth, and methods of coordinating the global work, continue to change as succeeding generations take on this particular responsibility for the moral and spiritual renewal of society, the essential philosophy of IofC remains the same - that personal change can lead to social, economic and political change. With its emphasis on experience rather than philosophy, it provides a focus where people of different religious and political persuasions can meet without compromising their own beliefs, and be part of a global network committed to working for change in the world. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4025. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Joe and Charlie workshops From: CBBB164@AOL.COM . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/20/2007 2:39:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII No they are not. Joe McQ has become the victim of Parkinson's disease and was replaced by Joe McC. Charlie P. recently had a hip replacement and Joe McC. has had a number of serious health problems. In God's love and service, Cliff Bishop http://www.ppgaadallas.org - - - - - - From: Ollie Olorenshaw ollie_olorenshaw@yahoo.com.au (ollie_olorenshaw at yahoo.com.au) As far as I am aware Joe and Charlie are no longer conducting workshops but recordings of past workshops are available from various places. Here is one. www.12steptapes.com and another www.xa-speakers.org best wishes Ollie IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4026. . . . . . . . . . . . Old AA meeting in Palos Park Illinois From: Dan . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/21/2007 9:21:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I belong to a very old AA group and am trying to figure out how old it is, and any other information on this group that has been meeting since at least 1940. The group is now called the Top of the Hill Group and meets on Monday nights off Southwest Highway [Route 7]. Thanx in kind and service dan babs IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4027. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr. Bob''s Signature, Kay Miller, Oscar Futrell From: Robt Woodson . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/21/2007 12:51:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Mike, You may want to be looking into the story of Wesley Parrish (Florida) who spearheaded the movement to purchase and make Dr. Bob's Home available to all of us, also, two folks around today that you should interview are Akron Intergroup's Archivist Gail L. and Don C., current Chairman of the Board at Dr. Bob's House, they were both involved early on, and should have some very interesting stories to tell. I imagine that you know Ray G. too, Dr. Bob's House's Archivist, a lot of materials and wonderful photographs ar available there. Dr. Bob's daughter Sue stayed at the York St. address until the end of her life. Kay Stewart (Grand Dame of Akron's Flame Breakfast Group) was active until the end of her life, serving as a Vice-Chairman on the Board of the Akron Intergroup Council in her last years and speaking at the Intergroup's Anniversary Dinner just before her passing. Her accomplishments were considerable and I am sure that her story (and probably that lead) is available on tape (try contacting the Akron Intergroup Archives...they are working now to put together "Voices from the Past" to be utilized in conjunction with the Archives page at the AkronAA.org. website and they have an aggressive program going to digitize remaining materials for back up use while the originals are preserved. Oscar Futrell was the first man in Alcoholics Annonymous that I ever met...in the Summit County Jail in 1971...he was quite candid... I distictly remember him telling me "I believe that you are an Alcoholic... this program will save your life...If you don't want what we've got then go die damn you!!!" For a long time I never trusted Oscar, whenever I saw him he was either in a uniform or a suit... (that same check Jacket in which he apperars in so many photographs...even at Dr. Bob's graveside monument with Bill W.) I trust Oscar today... that is what I have come to understand... Oscar was sponsored by Dr. Bob and was a great friend of Bill Wilson..I've been told it was Oscar that Drove Bill around on his visits to Akron. What he "tried" to carry to me was the straight message of Alcoholic's Annonymous although I did not understand that then, Guess I was more interesterd in the doughnuts (glazed), the "ready-made" cigarettes available at the meeting and the packs of Bugler Tobacco you could get if you asked for it...to take back to the range. I think the most important thing was perhaps the fact that going to the meeting allowed me to communicate with the other inmates from the different floors of the jail...yes communication was the great thing then and subtly? I began to get the message. This is hearsay, but my Sponsor (who was for many years the Chairman of the Founders Foundation) explained to me that at the end of his life Sgt. Oscar Futrell suffered from alzheimers, or something similar, and that it was very difficult and sad when people tried to take him to meetings. If you want to contact me directly I will do what I can to help you.... Be a good guy and keep you powder dry, Woody in Akron IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4029. . . . . . . . . . . . Wesley Parrish and Dr Bob''s House From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/22/2007 2:05:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Getting feedback about Dr Bob and some amusing anecdotes about Him, Kay and Oscar. Does anyone know more about Wesley putting up his own money to buy Dr.Bob's House and how he was paid back? This man needs to be given the credit he deserves if what I am hearing is true. Having fun in AA, Shakey Mike Gwirtz See you in Phoenix Sept.6-9 for the 11th Nat'l Archives Workshop [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4030. . . . . . . . . . . . Mustard Seed Group - Chicago From: frescacan . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/22/2007 8:19:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does anyone know the address of the first Mustard Seed Group location? I know it was in a basement apartment, near Astor and Division, in Chicago, but I'm really curious about the exact address. Thanks. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4031. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Mustard Seed Group - Chicago From: remcuster@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/22/2007 4:48:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Have you checked with the Chicago Area Service Office @ 312/346-1475 ?? The Area Code may have changed to 773, (it's been a long time since I've been in touch with them). Hank Groat Piney Flats, TN. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4032. . . . . . . . . . . . Frieda M-M From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/22/2007 10:43:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: "Fiona Dodd" (fionadodd at eircom.net) I received the following communiqué from the Archivist of the Avon South Intergroup on the passing of Frieda M-M. On a personal note, the Archivist's parents were stationed in Washington D.C. during 1941. (Her brother was born in the Bethesda Military Hospital two days before Pearl Harbour) There was a lot of entertaining and inspiration offered by the British Ambassador and her mother used to tell of the parties held at the Embassy. When her mother herself got sober in Alcoholics Anonymous in Bath in the Eighties, which was not long before her mother died in 1992, it was realised that John and Frieda who were Butler and Housekeeper to the British Ambassador in Washington would have undoubtedly served her parents their drinks on many occasions! It was there that the seeds of her mother's alcoholism were sown and it was in the Bath group which John started in 1955 that her mother got sober twenty-five years later! John M. served as the first sponsor to Travers of Bristol until his death in 1964. Fiona _ _ _ _ _ _ Frieda M-M R.I.P. _ _ _ _ _ _ Only today did the news come of the passing of Frieda M-M who died on 17th December, 2005. Frieda was John M's wife and aided all his efforts to establish Alcoholics Anonymous in the West Country when they left their employment with His Excellency the British Ambassador in Washington and returned to England in 1947 with his redundancy pay of £100 to seek employment and carry THIS message. In 1948 John held the first meeting known in the West Country at Mickleton, Glos. John did obtain employment and worked diligently and in 1955 helped open the Bath Group, along with Frank HS, Teddy and Joe G (Croydon). Travers of Bristol (1959) used to describe the meeting in the front parlour of Frieda's hairdressing salon being conducted amongst the old fashioned driers. He also used to tell of John and Freida's kindness to him in his own early days. After hearing much about Al-Anon taking shape in Canada and the United States, in 1955 Frieda began Al-Anon in Bath (believed to be the first Al-Anon meeting in England). John died the day after returning from the National Convention at Clacton in 1964. Frieda eventually returned to her native Berne, Switzerland and while already not young she began Al-Anon in that city. There was a report to the Intergroup in the mid-Nineties about an interview held with Frieda during a visit she made to her nephews and nieces in the West Country. She was a most energetitc and charming lady and kept in close touch over the years with the editors of the journal, 'Bristol Fashion'. Her life story is in the Archives. What an amazing lady, travelling all over the world, married to John and founding Al-Anon in more than one country! She would have been a 100 years of age, if not more, when she died! Surely, she was the last of our founding members. The Archivist, Avon South Intergroup, Bristol. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4033. . . . . . . . . . . . Re:Wesley Parrish and Dr Bob''s House From: Mike B. . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/23/2007 10:21:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII <> I have a letter from Wesley that I received in July 1985 thanking me for my donation to the Founders Foundation. At that time, Wesley signed himself as "Public Relations Servant" and included a copy of his Concordance, which I have used many, many times over the years. He was quite a good member of Alcoholics Anonymous. There was also a drawing for a 1st edition, 1st printing of the Big Book as a fund raiser. Mike Barns [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4034. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re:Wesley Parrish and Dr Bob''s House From: Diz Titcher . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/23/2007 2:56:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Any questions about Wesley can be addressed to John W. as he is Wesley's oldest sponsee: JWill60366@aol.com JWill60366 at aol.com IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4035. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Wesley Parrish and Dr. Bob''s House From: Sherry C. Hartsell . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/23/2007 2:54:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I had letters re this deal from Wesley P., he and old Sherry shared a podium or so back in the late '70s-80s. Nice fellow, well known here in Texas and respected as a good member and speaker, though best known for his efforts with BB studies; we visited a lot in Colorado and New Orleans during those Internationals, he visited in Dallas a few times and we'd talk. sherry IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4036. . . . . . . . . . . . Gail LaC. and Dr Bob''s House From: Bob McK. . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/26/2007 10:27:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII My background is in archives, not history, and that makes life easier for us so involved because we do not have to furnish opinions. A lot of people were involved in the purchase and restoration of Dr. Bob's. Indeed anyone who has ever made a contribution to them (even me, though a small one) can take credit for this. What should not be overlooked is the original sales agreement was signed by Gail La C., the current Akron AA Archivist, on October 5th, 1984. Her rear end was on the line for many thousands of dollars at that point and, while she had promises that she would not have to come up with (all of) the money, there are few of us that would have the courage (and the credit rating?) to make that big a commitment. Her contribution should neither be forgotten nor minimized. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4037. . . . . . . . . . . . Carl Jung''s criticism of the Oxford Group From: gcb900 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/25/2007 10:03:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII AA includes Carl Jung's exchanges with Bill W. as part of its history. There is also an important letter where Jung gives his opinion of the Oxford Group which I believe should be included among the materials on the AA History Lovers website, as what others think of AA and its freedoms is important. "The group confessions of sects like the Oxford [Group] Movement are well known; also the cures at Lourdes, which would be unthinkable without an admiring public. Groups bring about not only astonishing cures but equally astonishing psychic changes and conversions precisely because suggestibility is heightened .... "But in view of the notorious tendencies of people to lean on others and cling to various -isms instead of finding security and independence in themselves, which is the prime requisite, there is danger that the individual will equate the group with father and mother and so remain just as dependent, insecure and infantile as before .... For what we are dealing with is only the passing and morally weakening effects of suggestion (that is why medical psychotherapists, with few exceptions, have long since abandoned the use of suggestion therapy). C. G. Jung, letter to Hans A. Illing, January 26, 195570 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4038. . . . . . . . . . . . Bertha Bamford''s grave in Indiana??? From: garylock7008 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/24/2007 3:06:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I was just reading the lastest copy of Marking - Your Archives Interchange Vol. 26 No. 3 - Winter 2006 about the final resting place of Bertha Bamford - Bill W.'s teenage girlfriend. The author of the article - William W., from New Albany, Indiana states that she is buried in the Jeffersonville Cemetery, near her parents. [See photo on page three.] As I am writing this on Jan.24 - the date Bill Wilson died, I was reading the Memorial issue of the Grapevine dated March 1971 as I am preparing to do a brief talk at our local AA meeting on the life of Bill W. On page 14 of that issue Bill discribes his great depression following Bertha's death, in fact he writes: "I used to sneak out and go to the graveyard where the girl was buried, sitting there for hours, convinced that my whole life had utterly collapsed." I wonder if someone could clarify for me how Bill could leave his school in Manchester, Vermont, and sit by a grave site for hours in Jeffersonville, Indiana. Gary IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4039. . . . . . . . . . . . AA in Mexico City From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/26/2007 3:03:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A book about AA in Mexico City: Stanley Brandes, "Staying Sober in Mexico City," University of Texas Press, 2002. (AA historians should certainly be doing more work on Spanish-speaking AA, because Latin America accounts for one third of AA's membership worldwide.) John Blair (jblair at wmis.net) sent me the following article about Brandes' research: From the Berkeley campus of the University of California: http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2002/04/30_alano.html UC Berkeley anthropologist examines Mexico City's rapidly proliferating Alcoholics Anonymous 30 April 2002 By Kathleen Maclay, Media Relations Berkeley - When University of California, Berkeley, anthropologist Stanley Brandes was invited by his Mexico City shoeshine man to join him at a meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous, the longtime scholar of Spain and Latin America was a bit surprised, but he immediately agreed. After attending that first meeting, Brandes returned for hundreds more over the course of several years as he launched a detailed ethnographic study of one AA group among the thousands flourishing in Mexico and Latin America. The stories of the men in that group are told in the just-published, "Staying Sober in Mexico City" (University of Texas Press). Latin America is calculated to account for one-third of AA's membership worldwide, and El Salvador is said to have the highest AA membership per capita of any nation. Throughout Mexico, about 90 percent of AA's members are male. Brandes said he was intensely curious to learn how AA, which in the United States is generally associated with Protestant faiths and a middle- class clientele striving to maintain sobriety, proliferates in a Mexican culture characterized by ardent Catholicism, poverty and often a hard-drinking machismo. What he learned, Brandes said, may add to the understanding of 12-step groups, in general, and of Latino participation in such groups. The first Alcoholics Anonymous groups in Mexico began in the 1940s with English-speaking, "gringo" residents of the country. Some 16 years later, records show that the organization had just three Spanish-speaking AA groups in that country. Current estimates, however, indicate that, today, Mexico City counts more than 1,500 AA groups and about 300,000 members. In a Mexican village of 3,000 people where Brandes has long done anthropological fieldwork, there are at least two regular AA meeting groups. Although Alcoholics Anonymous is the subject of hundreds of books and extensive research, "Staying Sober" is different because it takes a single AA group as its subject and deals not only with the members' ideology, but how AA works for them through social relationships and group dynamics. "I am less interested in therapeutic outcomes than in the fate of the group itself: in questions of leadership, social control, and the identity of individuals as members of the group," Brandes wrote. With men comprising the majority of the AA membership in Mexico and its capital, he said, an interesting thing happens in the group meetings as participants redefine what it means to be a man in Mexico City. (Working-class women in Mexico are more likely to join Neurotics Anonymous or Al-Anon, a group for family members of alcoholics, Brandes said). "A lot of what goes on in the bars goes on in the meeting rooms," Brandes said, recalling meetings of the AA group he called "Moral Support," where he repeatedly heard men brag about sexual exploits and misbehavior. Brandes noted in his book that, although AA is not allied with any religion, it is often associated with Protestant faiths because of the religion of its founders, its somewhat Puritanical focus on abstinence from drinking, and a linkage of its 12-step program with a multitude of Biblical references. Yet, he said, Mexican AA members have managed to infuse much of the typical meeting and group structure with popular Catholic symbolism and form. One way, Brandes said, is the use of the AA member's telling of personal stories in a way similar to Catholic confessionals. Another is the use of alcohol-free fiestas to celebrate sobriety anniversaries to mimic the typical merriment of Catholic celebrations for baptisms, confirmations, marriages and other events. Also, Brandes found that the use of "sponsors" to guide newer AA members has been co-opted by the Mexicans as the equivalent of religious godparents, or "padrinos." "The Moral Support meeting room is certainly not a church," Brandes wrote. "But, in a number of ways, it replicates the kind of sacred space that would be familiar to any Mexican Catholic. The chairs are arranged, as in any church, in congregational fashion. The podium functions as a kind of altar...Sacred texts hanging on the meeting room walls add to the overall religious imagery." So, Brandes said, "To join AA in working-class Mexico City does not mean abandoning one's religious tradition. It means adapting it to the circumstances at hand." He theorizes that the growth of AA membership in Mexico is due, in part, to more villagers heading to urban centers in search of work. Among these migrants, many workers with drinking problems turn to Alcoholics Anonymous groups as substitutes for the familiar, small communities they lost when they left rural villages or to replace their drinking buddies. Surprisingly, AA in Mexico City is anything but anonymous, and no one seems to mind, Brandes found. The small storefront meetings he attended were interrupted by small children racing in to chase dogs or retrieve balls, and neighbors looking for each other. Members routinely keep the meeting entrance open, and passersby can easily overhear what is said inside, Brandes said. This open identification of AA members is probably the most dramatic difference between the organization in Mexico and the United States, he said. While Brandes still is uncertain about the effectiveness of AA, he said he did become "a true Triple A, or Admirer of Alcoholics Anonymous," in that he held every one of the members of his group in high esteem and developed affection for them. Marcelo Suarez-Orozco, co-director of the Harvard (University) Immigration Project, praised "Staying Sober in Mexico City." He said it likely will become not only the standard reference on the cultural study of alcoholism in Mexico, but also "one of the best overall social science contributions to the study of Mexican culture in the last 50 years." Brandes, a social cultural anthropologist, has spent more than 30 years in the study of Latin American and European ethnography, writing about peasant society and culture, folklore, symbolism, ritual and religion, as well as food and drink. Brandes' future projects will include a study of Latino AA or 12-step groups in the United States, as he assesses the impact of migration on drinking patterns and treatment strategies. Brandes also is engaged in a long-term study of the Day of the Dead. ### IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4040. . . . . . . . . . . . First Black Woman In AA? From: hesofine2day . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/24/2007 5:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does anyone know the identity of the first black woman in AA? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4041. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Later history of the Oxford Group From: David Johnson . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/23/2007 6:12:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII You write: > Could AA have in fact remained linked to the > Oxford Group at all, given the inner dynamic of > the OG and the way they were evolving? Evidently Clarence S. felt not ... citing specific reasons to Dr.Bob (as presented in Mitchell K.'s "How It Worked) pp.136-141. Then there's "AA The Story," by Kurtz, pp 45-57, which go into some detail the myriad reasons why AA naturally and inevitably separated from the Oxford Group in order to even proclaim "a primary purpose," let alone anonymity, attraction rather than promotion, no opinion on outside matters, no outside affiliation, and a God of our own understanding. I would also say before we get into a "true assessment" of the Oxford group-even as it went through its various permutations, we would do well to first of all understand the biases of the Oxford Group, as dominated by Buchman, during this period of time in the 30's and 40's. For example: From "What is the Oxford Group," 1933, P. 6:"Their aim is A New World Order for Christ, the King," and "The Oxford Group works within churches of all denominations, planning to bring those outside back into their folds and to re-awaken those within to their responsibilities as Christians." Then there's their strategy of trying to bring the "movers and shakers" into the fold so that "money, property and prestige" might serve to influence the masses more quickly. Then there's the Oxford Group's take on homosexuality: "There are many who wear suede shoes who are not homosexual, but in Europe and America the majority of homosexuals do. They favor green as a color in clothes and decorations. Men are given to an excessive display and use of the handkerchief. They tend to let the hair grow long, use scent and are frequently affected in speech, mincing in gait and feminine in mannerisms. They are often very gifted in the arts. They tend to exhibitionism. They can be cruel and vindictive, for sadism usually has a homosexual root. They are often given to moods....There is an unnecessary touching of hands, arms and shoulders. In the homosexual the elbow grip is a well-known sign. Of course, they were condemned. (See Remaking Men, Paul Campbell, M.D. and Peter Howard, 1954, pages 60-62.) Probably the most famous of the Buchman utterances: "On returning from Europe, Frank Buchman, Oxford group revivalist, is quoted by a reputable New York paper as having said: "I thank heaven for a man like Adolf Hitler, who built a front-line defense against the anti-Christ of communism.... My barber in London told me Hitler saved all Europe from communism. That's how he felt. Of course I don't condone everything the Nazis do. Antisemitism? Bad, naturally. I suppose Hitler sees a Karl Marx in every Jew. But think what it would mean to the world if Hitler surrendered to the control of God. Or Mussolini. Or any dictator. Through such a man God could control a nation overnight and solve every last bewildering problem." "In this interview the social philosophy of the Oxford group, long implicit in its strategy, is made explicit, and revealed in all its childishness and viciousness. This philosophy has been implicit in Buchmanite strategy from the beginning. It explains the particular attention which is paid by Mr. Buchman and his followers to big men, leaders, in industry and politics. The idea is that if the man of power can be converted, God will be able to control a larger area of human life through his power than if a little man were converted. This is the logic which has filled the Buchmanites with touching solicitude for the souls of such men as Henry Ford or Harvey Firestone and prompted them to whisper confidentially from time to time that these men were on the very threshold of the kingdom of God. It is this strategy which prompts or justifies the first- class travel of all the Oxford teams. They hope to make contact with big men in the luxurious first-class quarters of ocean liners." Excerpted from "Christianity and Power Politics" by Reinhold Niebuhr, the eminent theologian who is associated with The Serenity Prayer. This appears to be a word-for-word reprint of Niebuhr's criticism of Buchman that first appeared in The Christian Century magazine, October 7, 1936, pages 1315 and 1316. Isolated thought? Not really. Here's another: "... Human problems aren't economic. They're moral and they can't be solved by immoral measures. They could be solved within a God-controlled democracy, or perhaps I should say a theocracy, and they could be solved through a God-controlled Fascist dictatorship." Initiatives of Change, the Oxford group's latest reincarnation, seems admirably multi-cultural and focused on the the interpersonal and what each of us can do to make the world a better place. In addition, there are stories where such changes have taken place with some idea of how they've occurred. It seems that the insistence upon change from the "top down" and Jesus Christ as the only way have been dropped. More power to them. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4042. . . . . . . . . . . . Wesley P''s concordance From: Cheryl F . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/23/2007 4:02:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does any one know where I can get a complete concordance like the one referred to below? Cheryl Fitzsimmons http://my2.tupperware.com/CherylFitz -----Original Message----- Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 To: AA History Lovers Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Wesley Parrish and Dr Bob's House I have a letter from Wesley that I received in July 1985 thanking me for my donation to the Founders Foundation. At that time, Wesley signed himself as "Public Relations Servant" and included a copy of his Concordance, which I have used many, many times over the years. Mike Barns IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4043. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Gail LaC. and Dr Bob''s House From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/26/2007 6:53:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In reference to the post by bobnotgod and his statement that Gail L. signed for the mortgage in 1984, I doubt that it was Gail L. of Akron Archives. I've met her several times and I'm sure she would have been a teenager in 1984 and unable to sign a mortgage. (Aren't I a diplomat!) Perhaps another AAHL can shed some more light on that. I have a copy of the Extensions newsletter from the Founders Foundation dated Jan. 1988 that says “The Home is Now Ours." It has a picture of a ceremonial mortgage burning with Don C., Kurt S., Kay S., Mel B., K-C S., Ron S., and Joe G. The article states, “The home is now ours! The Mortgage Has Been Paid." In the newsletter entitled Founders Foundation News the Articles of Incorporation are listed and show Sue S. Windows, Kay S., and Joseph G. as the initial trustees. It is dated Jan. 14, 1985. Was the house paid off in 3 years? In reference to trying to find out more about Wesley P, Kay and Oscar -- I received many e-mails -- thank you to Sherry, Old Bill, Don B (who will be a speaker at the next Founder's Day on Saturday afternoon), Tommy H., Woody of Akron and Diz T. Diz referred me to the next best thing than the horses' mouth; he sent me to his sponcee John W. and he has sent me the following which he has allowed me to share with you. Dear Mike, Wes was upset when he heard the news that Dr. Bob's home was in bad shape and was in danger of being bulldozed to make room for a parking lot. The mortgage that existed at that time was rather small as I remember but Wes felt that interested members of AA should participate in the purchase and it should be done outside of AA. He was in Pompano but he had plenty of support in Akron and he was asked to be the "point" man and raise the funds to pay off the mortgage. He took on the assignment and Wes had a lot of friends whose wealth had increased because of sobriety and Wes asked for contributions and of course they responded. He also conducted a raffle of a first edition Big Book with Bill Wilson's and Ebby Thatcher's signature on the inside covers. The tickets were sold for $25.00 per chance and plenty were sold. If you purchased a ticket, Wes would send you back a concordance to the Big Book and 12x12 to acknowledge receipt of your purchase. Wes died in November, 1985 and the drawing was set for January, 1986. I had Wesley's widow, Rena, draw the winning ticket and I presented the book to Ray G. in St. Petersburg in February, 1986. I don't think Ray was ever the same after that as he and his wife have become archivist for Dr. Bob's home. Charlie P. from Maysville, AR became the chief fund raiser after that and has been successful at getting a principal of close to $500.00 so that the interest is divided each year between Dr. Bob's home and Bill's birthplace in East Dorset, VT. Wes never purchased the mortgage although he could have. He thought it better to have interested members contribute so that it would be a collective effort which seems to work best with AA members. Wes was quite a salesman and got the job started. Kay and Wes were good buddies and all of that committee worked very hard to achieve something really great for the members of AA. Wes would keep me posted as to the progress in our daily conversations if anything significant occurred in Akron. He was pleased with the progress and on the evening of his death, according to Rena, he had been on the phone to Akron before he retired for the night and later died in his sleep. I understand his picture is displayed somewhere in the home and as is with most of what Wes stood for, he's just as happy to remain anonymous. All of those involved know the part he played and as the one who started the Founder's Foundation, it goes on and the homes can never be taken away. As ever, John W. The original mortgage for the house was $38,000 according to the Founders Foundation news. The lending institution was the First National Bank, Akron, Ohio, and the rate was 1 1/2 % over the prime interest rate. The down payment was 25% or $9,500.00. It was a commercial loan and they also had to pay 2 points ($570.00) plus closing costs (~$500.00). The monthly payment was $360.00 per month for 15 years plus taxes and insurance. The law required 5 people to sign for it and the committee thought the house would cover any risk involved by those 5 people. Tradition Six was not broken by the members having a Foundation and as Kay said "Come home often, it’s yours," "The Home of Dr. Bob is yours," "God will do the impossible." John also shared, "Wes started a big book study on January 5, 1976, and that group has evolved into the Wednesday Night Study Group in Pompano Beach. Since I was there when it started and was part of the group until I moved to Tallahassee last summer, I know its history. Wes was also responsible for getting the Big Book Seminars and Studies off the ground. As I was his pigeon, I saw this all unfold and fortunately for me, Wes asked me to be part of the program." Yours in Service, Shakey Mike Gwirtz See Ya in Phoenix Sept.6-9 at the 11th National Archives Convention. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4044. . . . . . . . . . . . Purchasing Dr Bobs House... From: erb2b . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/26/2007 5:09:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Greetings.... I have heard this story quite a few times from my Grandsponsor( Alf S.) who also contributed to the funds along with his good friend Wesley P. in the house purchase along with a few others. He's still alive and in the nursing home. I see him every so often he's 92 and still has some stories to tell myself and others. He was a Panel Delegate and came into the Oxford Group in 1934. THX! Corey F. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4045. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bertha Bamford''s grave in Indiana??? From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/27/2007 9:29:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Gary, I was one of the authors of "Pass It On," so I had the same question you posed here. I concluded that Bertha's body was temporarily stored in a vault before being taken to Jeffersonville for a later service and burial. It's also possible that she might have been buried in Manchester and then exhumed and reburied in Jeffersonville. I also understand that winter burials are delayed in part of New England because the ground is frozen over. I think that was the case when Bill died in January, but was not buried in East Dorset until spring. Incidentally, I asked a good friend in Louisville, Paul L., to make a search for Bertha's grave back in 1980. He was a very capable man and made a diligent search, but couldn't find it. So we have to give William W. high marks for this successful search. We should also thank Amy Filliatreau, the new archivist, for getting the photo. She was visiting in Louisville and went over and snapped it on her own. Mel Barger melb@accesstoledo.com (melb at accesstoledo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4046. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bertha Bamford''s grave in Indiana??? From: johnpublico . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/27/2007 10:32:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Gary, Bertha died on November 19th, 1912 at the Flower Hospital in New York City. Her death certificate indicates she died during surgery to remove a sarcoma of the right kidney. She was interred at Walnut Ridge Cemetery in Jeffersonville, Indiana (across the river from Louisville, KY) on November 28, 1912. Robert Thomsen, in his book "Bill W", indicates that Bertha's body laid in an above-ground crypt (the earth too frozen for burial) at the Factory Point Cemetery (in Dorsett, VT) that winter. But this seens unlikely since only 9 days separated her death in Manhattan and burial in Indiana. Bill's account makes for an impelling story. I take it as only that. John K. - - - - From: Shakey1aa@aol.com (Shakey1aa at aol.com) Please read pg. 36 in Pass It On. She was buried in Jeffersonville, Indiana. yis Shakey Mike Gwirtz - - - - From: "Mitchell K." (mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com) "I wonder if someone could clarify for me how Bill could leave his school in Manchester, Vermont, and sit by a grave site for hours in Jeffersonville, Indiana." The same way that many other so-called "facts" are presented in AA literature -- it sounds better than the truth. (Or ... there are lots of other women by that same name in the world.) - - - - --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "garylock7008" wrote: > > I was just reading the lastest copy of Marking - > Your Archives Interchange Vol. 26 No. 3 - Winter > 2006 about the final resting place of Bertha > Bamford - Bill W.'s teenage girlfriend. > > The author of the article - William W., from > New Albany, Indiana states that she is buried > in the Jeffersonville Cemetery, near her parents. > > [See photo on page three.] > > As I am writing this on Jan.24 - the date Bill > Wilson died, I was reading the Memorial issue > of the Grapevine dated March 1971 as I am > preparing to do a brief talk at our local AA > meeting on the life of Bill W. On page 14 of > that issue Bill discribes his great depression > following Bertha's death, in fact he writes: > > "I used to sneak out and go to the graveyard > where the girl was buried, sitting there for > hours, convinced that my whole life had utterly > collapsed." > > I wonder if someone could clarify for me how > Bill could leave his school in Manchester, > Vermont, and sit by a grave site for hours > in Jeffersonville, Indiana. > > Gary > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4047. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA in Mexico City From: Maria Swora . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/27/2007 8:12:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I reviewed this book for American Ethnologist. It's an online review: http://www.aaanet.org/aes/bkreviews/result_details.cfm?bk_id=632 It's a really good book. Maria Maria G. Swora, Ph.D. MPH Department of Sociology Benedictine College Atchison, Kansas 66002 - - - - Glenn Chesnut wrote: A book about AA in Mexico City: Stanley Brandes, "Staying Sober in Mexico City," University of Texas Press, 2002. John Blair (jblair at wmis.net) sent me the following article about Brandes' research: From the Berkeley campus of the University of California: http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2002/04/30_alano.html UC Berkeley anthropologist examines Mexico City's rapidly proliferating Alcoholics Anonymous 30 April 2002 By Kathleen Maclay, Media Relations ________________________________________ The full text of Kathleen Maclay's article is given in AAHistoryLovers Message 4039: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/4039 ________________________________________ IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4048. . . . . . . . . . . . Could AA and the OG have stayed together? From: Tom White . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/27/2007 4:10:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dear Glenn: I was much stimulated by your first question below to think about whether or not AA and the OG might have stuck together. I think not, because each was, from fairly early times, on a quite clearly different track to the future. My remarks here are based on much reading about AA, and about the OG and its successor organizations, and on considerable personal knowledge of AA and its history. But in the end I am writing here essentially just my own impressions and theories. The hypothetical question as to whether the two groups could have stuck together is really unanswerable because what happened is that they did not, and real history, real events, are irreversible. One can't step in the same river twice. First, look at the leaders. Buchman and Wilson both had extraordinary spiritual experiences of the transformative type so well described in James's "Varieties of Religious Experience" and Bucke's "Cosmic Consciousness." Both men came out of their brief but intense illuminations with completely changed characters. Both became strong, magnetic leaders, originators of world- changing movements. Neither had been that before the experiences, although they were both thought highly talented in various ways. It was perhaps inevitable that two such "large" men would bump heads when it finally came to a showdown over their ideas. But having cited some equivalencies, I now suggest some strong differences: Buchman (1878-1961) was Bill's (1895-1970) senior by 17 years; he was one year older than Dr. Bob. Buchman's spiritual experience in 1908, when he was 30, antedated Bill's in 1934 (when Bill was 38) by 26 years. Buchman was established as a leader with an international group in existence when "the alcoholic squad," led by Bill and Dr. Bob formed itself in Akron under OG auspices in late 1935. AA ideas would not come together and be presented to the public for several more years; the Big Book ("Alcoholics Anonymous") was published in 1939. But AA's "Big Book," was more completely an action program, and a more detailed one than the OG ever printed, despite the immense amount of often excellent OG literature that was created over many years. Of course AA's Big Book was based largely on Oxford Group principles, but already somewhat modified to fit the AA circumstance. Both groups depended, to begin with, on one-on-one personal contacts more than on anything written to accomplish their goals. In the matter of movement goals, of course, is where major differences arose. Buchman aimed at all men (meant in the sense of all men and women); Bill and Dr. Bob (mostly, as far as the public was concerned Bill's silent partner) soon realized —- as early as their months together in Akron in the summer of '35 —- that they were out after only their fellow alcoholics. I seem to recall reading that Buchman disapproved of such "specialism" and told the alkies that, perhaps through Sam Shoemaker. Buchman and the OG generally operated on the theory that if they could change "leaders" and otherwise important people ("key people" in their expression), the mass of people would ultimately tend to change with them. There is no reason to say they were essentially wrong. Protestantism advanced because some German princes took it up, and their people followed them. My impression has been that all through their changes of name and policies and locations, this emphasis by the OG on "changing leaders first" has stayed constant. As has the emphasis on publishing their successes on the world stage, so that their movement might grow and make beneficial changes in the lives of many everywhere, and not unimportantly, lead to significant donations to the OG work. The OG published and reiterated its successes among the prestigious and powerful to the point of turning off many; I expect Bill and Bob were among those turned off by this extravagance. Even when AA collected some "celebrities" there was no desire by AA to capitalize on their attachment; some early "anonymity-breakers" among that population were thought actually harmful to the fellowship. One can perhaps put it this way: Buchman's traits included an extravagance of language when making claims for his OG (and later MRA); he was often accused of being extravagant in his style of living -— expensive clothing, "posh" hotels, luxurious traveling. He, in fact, owned very little personal property, so there was a principled side to his methods; his expenses were for his work. His style was rather derivative of Philadelphia, a city of great wealth and even elegance, under the English Quakers and Protestant Germans who settled in Pennsylvania. Whereas Bill and Bob for all their education and urban sophistication retained through their lives a kind of "Puritan-Yankee-Vermonter" outlook that disliked ostentation, bragging, and extravagance, without, I think, their ever being cheapskates. Bill and AA ultimately went in quite an opposite direction from the OG organizationally: personal anonymity, meaning there would be no publicity sought for big-name adherents of their cause, no money sought from anyone not an alcoholic, no expensive buildings and "centers," none of the trappings of institutional wealth for any aspect of AA itself, however the individual members might disport themselves. But perhaps the biggest difference between the two groups and their founding leaders was in their handling of the twin problems of leadership (that "L" word again) and succession that beset every social movement. Buchman stayed in charge of the OG/MRA until his death in 1961. He had delegated Peter Howard, an Englishman, as his successor. Howard died unexpectedly in Lima, Peru, in 1965. (I have run across at least one writer who thinks Howard was murdered. He did not say who, supposing the suspicion were correct, might have done it, or why.) Howard's death precipitated a leadership crisis in MRA, which was ultimately solved by the movement's heavyweights (a board of directors or trustees presumably) which instituted a change of policies. These in turn have led, whether or not deliberately I do not know, to the essential disappearance of the organization from the U.S. and Britain, and developments towards the East (India) and South (Africa) from their long-time European HQ at Caux, Switzerland. A name change to Initiates of Change occurred along the way. Bill Wilson's solution to the leadership-succession problem seems, by contrast, extraordinarily successful —- so far. Way back in the 1940s he had complained in the Grapevine that he wished he and Bob could "join AA." He was lamenting their lionization and consequent isolation as "founders." Surely Bob had no heart for lionization at all; he firmly declined some Akron AAs' proposal for a stately mausoleum for him and Anne, and he told Bill he thought they both should be buried "like other folks." Bob spoke for the last time at the 1950 International Conference in Cleveland. By 1955 Bill had made his decision: he would foreclose the founder/Big Shot role in AA for (he hoped) all time. He stepped down as founder-leader at the 1955 "Coming of Age" Conference at St. Louis (marvelously reported on by him in "AA Comes of Age") and "turned the movement over to the members." He worked at getting a majority of alcoholics on the GSO board of trustees and at starting the annual GSO delegates meeting in New York City every April, and, in the Third (Service) Legacy, he accomplished two things of major importance (among other things): (1) he, as it were, wrote out of AA's permanent structure any need for, or means to achieve, replacements of himself and Bob; there would be no "designated successor" to them as there had been to Buchman in OG/MRA, and (2) he deposited all authority and power in the individual AA Group; there would be no rule "from the top," as in the OG/MRA. The NYC HQ would be subservient to the Delegates's conferences and ultimately only a publishing, not a control, operation. This he clearly hoped would squeak AA safely around the bugaboo that assails all top-down organizations like governments and churches, namely the rise and steadily increasing empowerment of an HQ bureaucracy. As to that there is Mosca's Iron Law to keep in mind, which runs to the effect that all organizations (top-down rule assumed) end up ultimately serving the people who run it rather than the mission it was originally set up to serve. The Puritan-Yankee-Vermonter master publicist, lawyer, speculator, magnetic leader, etc., etc., did his level best to protect AA from the future's swollen egos, and even, as he said, from himself; he lived 16 years past his step-down as leader and never made any attempts, so far as I know, to reassert himself as the man in charge. It was quite a wondrous working, a very rare case of selflessness. - - - - On Jan 22, 2007, at 11:33 AM, Glenn Chesnut wrote: > There is a nice little summary of the later > history of the Oxford Group at: > > http://www.uk.initiativesofchange.org/index.php?sn=2,2#top > > Could AA have in fact remained linked to the > Oxford Group at all, given the inner dynamic of > the OG and the way they were evolving? In AA, > we tend to focus only on the parts of the Oxford > Group that we are interested in, and ignore > other things that were essential parts of the > movement. > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4049. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA in Mexico City From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/27/2007 6:28:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I believe I met Stanley Brandes in 1997 at a seminar held at Brown University in 1997. He was discussing his work in Mexico at that time. I wonder if the finished product included Seccion Mexico which is a true Fellowship of the Spirit in Mexico where they are living the Traditions and freely carrying the message to all who seek recovery. - - - - - - Glenn Chesnut wrote: > A book about AA in Mexico City: Stanley Brandes, > "Staying Sober in Mexico City," University of > Texas Press, 2002. > > John Blair (jblair at wmis.net) > sent me the following article about Brandes' > research: > > From the Berkeley campus of > the University of California: > > http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2002/04/30_alano.html > > UC Berkeley anthropologist examines Mexico City's > rapidly proliferating Alcoholics Anonymous > > 30 April 2002 > > By Kathleen Maclay, Media Relations IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4050. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA in Mexico City From: Angela Corelis . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/27/2007 7:30:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hola, I read that book review in 2002 and reacted in horror at how misleading his perceptions were. Trying to fit AA into preconceived ethnological/ anthropological parameters. His observations may be true for the group he observed, but it is misleading to say it applies to all AA in Mexico. My first 8 years of sobriety (sobriety date Sept 6, 1986) were almost exclusively in Spanish language meetings in the Mexican states of Michoacan, Sinaloa, Nayarit and Jalisco, including a national AA convention in Mexico City. My personal observations of these meetings are not in agreement with his. (I have a degree in Art History/Anthropology from UC Berkeley). I had planned to order the book and see for myself ... but that idea faded ... now will do it...the reviewer may have made mistatements. It is mileading what Marcelo Suarez-Orozco, co-director of the Harvard (University) Immigration Project, said when he praised "Staying Sober in Mexico City." He said it likely will become not only the standard reference on the cultural study of alcoholism in Mexico, but also "one of the best overall social science contributions to the study of Mexican culture in the last 50 years," with the study of one group. It is similar to a non AA making a study of an AA group in a small town in the US and calling it "the standard reference on the cultural study of alcoholism in the US." Yes. Photos of Bill W and Dr. Bob often have candles and flowers placed below them. I have not noticed the Mexicans being any more boastful than American men on their sexual prowess or manliness. Guadalajara had six Women´s AA groups in 1988, now who knows, I attended most of them. Now living in Puerto Vallarta, I have attended three different Mexican all Women AA groups. I have had the opportunity to travel with Mexican AA carrying the message to Isla Marias Penal Colony 1,500 men and 53 women ... to work with the women. Here, almost to a person, the prisoners had been incarcerated for a crime committed while drunk. To Sierra Madre mountain villages outside of Guadalajara ... 1/2 hour by twin engine plane the 15 minutes. Here we helped form a new AA group, they had been meeting for a years, but were not a registered group. And did not perceive the same things as Mr. Brandes. Angela Corelis Puerto Vallarta, Jalisco Mexico P.S. Just finished a presentation on AA History in Mexico at the 5th Annual Sobriety Under the Sun AA Conference in Puerto Vallarta, Mexico, January 26, 27, 28, 2007. I asked Fernando Q. (25 years sober) to present the same talk he gave on that topic at the International AA Convention in San Diego. Plus invited local English speaking Mexican AA member (4 years sober, but interviewed Pedrito the only still living founder of Spanish language AA in Vallarta) to present the history of Mexican AA in Vallarta and Ray (30 years sobriety, visiting Vallarta for 6 months each year since sober) to present the history of English Language AA in Vallarta. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4051. . . . . . . . . . . . Relationships for the newly-sobered... From: teeper@comcast.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/29/2007 11:28:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII AAHL, A sponsee asked me if I knew specifically in either the Big Book or the 12and12 if the subject of refraining from relationships (or any other thing that might interfere with sobriety) for the first year or so. That's the general wisdom of my home group and I've heard that advice given before, but I don't know if it's ever been addressed in any Conference-approved literature, or on this site, for that matter. Any help would be greatly appreciated! Spiritus contra spiritum! Terry P. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4052. . . . . . . . . . . . Twelve Steps and the Older Member From: Barry Murtaugh . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/30/2007 12:01:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Folks, Here on my desk is a paperback with a blue coated stock cover with the numeral "12" in gold on it, upper right corner. Cover is glued to stapled text pages, 5 1/2" x 7 1/8" Inside is the title page: "TWELVE STEPS and the older Member" Publisher line is: "Older Member Press,Box 25, Guilford, Conn" Copyright page: "Copyright 1964 by Older Member Press First Serial rights granted A.A. Grapevine 1954 through 1963; all other rights retained by copyright owner. First Printing June, 1964. Library of Congress catalog number:64-22572 Price Two Dollars" Great lines from the intro: "The newest newcomer is just as authentically an explorer into the infinite as were Bill and Bob when they founded AA on June 10,1935. Nobody can take the Tweve Steps for anybody else. Each individual who sets his foot on the road suggested by the Steps finds himself on his own endlessly challenging, sometime perilous journey into undiscovered territory." In Gratitude 12/24/06 Happy Christmas from Barrington, IL Barry Barry Murtaugh CMLJBM@VOYAGER.NET IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4053. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Wesley P''s concordance From: John Seibert . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/29/2007 8:32:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Cheryl, I have a dictionary/concordance that is prooduced by an outfit called the "Big Book Dictionary." It was given me by a friend. Their web site is http://www.bigbookdictionary.com It is conveniently sized to fit inside the Big Book and is current for the 4th edition - the first 192 pages [through Dr Bob's Story]. Currently their price is $4.00 each and that includes shipping. In Love, John S. - - - - From: "Bob S." (rstonebraker212 at insightbb.com) Question: "Does any one know where I can get a complete concordance like the one referred to below?" Answer: A Concordance to Alcoholics Anonymous By Stephen and Frances E. Poe Purple Salamander Press 1625 Heitman Court Reno, NV 89509 This book is nearly 1000 pages - I have found it very useful. Bob S. - - - - From: "momaria33772" (jhoffma6 at tampabay.rr.com) I'm not sure specifically which Concordance is referred to here, however, my friend Ray G., the Dr. Bob's Home archivist,is a snow bird here in Florida. He has a few copies of the huge blue hardcover available, this is written by Stephen Poe printed by Purple Salamander press 1990. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4054. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Carl Jung''s criticism of the Oxford Group From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/30/2007 8:24:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "gcb900" wrote: > > AA includes Carl Jung's exchanges with Bill W. > as part of its history. There is also an > important letter where Jung gives his opinion > of the Oxford Group which I believe should be > included among the materials on the AA History > Lovers website, as what others think of AA and > its freedoms is important. > Jung's thinking did go through some changes over time, and he seems to have been a little more positive, or at least less negative, about the OG during the 1920s. In the "Collected Letters" there is an early letter mentioning the Groups, which was apparently written to a member of his extended family or a close friend (I assume this because he signed it "Carl" which he almost never did). The person had already become involved with the OG and Jung made the observation that, for that particular person at least, Group involvement was probably a good thing. The recipient of the letter is not identified, and the endorsement -- if endorsement is even the right term -- is certainly tentative. In the 1930s, Jung became critical or even contemptuous of the Groups. The reason may have been partially a personal one. A friend and colleague, Alphonse Maeder, had become involved with the Groups in the mid-20s. Maeder was one of the few men in the analytic community with whom Jung remained on good terms over a long period of time, probably because Maeder had an easy-going personality and more humility than most people in the field. The two of them eventually parted company, primarily because Jung wanted Maeder to take on the leadership of a professional organization with Nazi connections. Maeder's excuse (purposely lame?) was that he was devoting too much time to the OG to take on anything else. This may have contributed to Jung's disapproval of the Group. So the situation is as usual a little complicated. Certainly Jung's distrust of "group think," the psychology of crowds, was consistent thoughout his career. So it is understandable that he would have questioned the wisdom of joining an organization like the Oxford Group. Cora IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4055. . . . . . . . . . . . re:Wesley P. Concordance From: mec569 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/31/2007 8:50:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have used the Hazelden index cost about 3.00 at my Central Office/intergroup. I use a Concordance that include words in context for the Twelve and Twelve and Big Book called "164 and More" compiled and edited by Ralph T. The website for it is excellent and is as follows: http:\\www.164andMore.com The book sells for 15.00 post-paid and has been a great resource for me during book studies and the like. Yours in Service, Brewster B. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4056. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Relationships for the newly-sobered... From: t . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/30/2007 3:33:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Try the 12and12 on page 119: "A.A. has many single alcoholics who wish to marry and are in a position to do so. Some marry fellow A.A.'s. How do they come out? On the whole these marriages are very good ones. Their common suffering as drinkers, their common interest in A.A. and spiritual things, often enhance such unions. It is only where 'boy meets girl on A.A. campus,' and love follows at first sight, that difficulties may develop. The prospective partners need to be solid A.A.'s and long enough acquainted to know that their compatibility at spiritual, mental, and emotional levels is a fact and not wishful thinking. They need to be as sure as possible that no deep-lying emotional handicap in either will be likely to rise up under later pressures to cripple them. The considerations are equally true and important for the A.A.'s who marry 'outside' A.A. With clear understanding and right, grown-up attitudes, very happy results do follow." __________________________________ ---- a year might be rushing it! to achieve that compatibility at spiritual, mental and emotional levels ... rule out any deep lying emotional handicaps... gain clear understanding and right grown-up attitudes. teeper@comcast.net wrote: >AAHL, > > A sponsee asked me if I knew specifically >in either the Big Book or the 12and12 if the subject >of refraining from relationships (or any other >thing that might interfere with sobriety) for >the first year or so. > > That's the general wisdom of my home group >and I've heard that advice given before, but >I don't know if it's ever been addressed in >any Conference-approved literature, or on this >site, for that matter. > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4057. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bertha Bamford''s grave in Indiana??? From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/30/2007 3:51:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi John, Thanks for this additional information about Bertha Bamford's death and burial. Since Bill talked about mourning by her burial place, I take it that he went out to the above- ground vault several times before she was taken to Jeffersonville. Bill had a tendency to exaggerate certain facts (though not deliberately) and I believe that this memory bcame somewhat expanded as he recalled that dark period in his life. Mel Barger melb@accesstoledo.com (melb at accesstoledo.com) ----- Original Message ----- From: johnpublico To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 10:32 AM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Bertha Bamford's grave in Indiana??? Gary, Bertha died on November 19th, 1912 at the Flower Hospital in New York City. Her death certificate indicates she died during surgery to remove a sarcoma of the right kidney. She was interred at Walnut Ridge Cemetery in Jeffersonville, Indiana (across the river from Louisville, KY) on November 28, 1912. Robert Thomsen, in his book "Bill W", indicates that Bertha's body laid in an above-ground crypt (the earth too frozen for burial) at the Factory Point Cemetery (in Dorsett, VT) that winter. But this seens unlikely since only 9 days separated her death in Manhattan and burial in Indiana. Bill's account makes for an impelling story. I take it as only that. John K. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4058. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA in Mexico City From: Maria Swora . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/30/2007 4:14:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I never got the impression that Brandes believed that his study of one AA group represented all of AA in Mexico. I don't think one could write any one work that would accurately depict as diverse a group/community/fellowship as AA. But there are some important core values that are actively adapted by members to their local contexts. I find his work valuable for two reasons. First, the ethnographic (not ethnological) study of one AA group provides us with a wealth of rich comparative material. If we disagree with it, more work needs to be done - other groups, the same at a different time, etc. That is how science works - through a disciplinary community that is self-critical and open to correction and growth. Second, I though Brandes' analysis and description of the articulation of that particular group in that particular context, both local and cultural, was very good. And it is about time that someone recognized that gender affects men as well as women. One concern I have. I am a nonalcoholic who carried out an ethnographic study of AA in one city, and wrote a dissertation about it. I broadened by material with speaker tapes from all over the United States, but I never claimed that I produced a comprehensive study of AA. I do think I did a good job, even though I'd be the first to admit I can't claim to "grok" what it is like to be an alcoholic, sober or not. However, I've been told by a few AA members that I have no right or business to try to understand the fellowship and its program because I am not a member. I disagree. That's like telling an anthropologist that he/she can't do an ethnographic study of another society or cultural group because he/she is not a native. Maria S., Friend of Friends of Bill IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4059. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA in Mexico City From: Robt Woodson . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/1/2007 10:07:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hola Amigo's Thanks to John and to Glenn, also to Angela, Maria (appreciated your review), and Mitchell. I had written this before their postings appeared. I think I have to agree with Angela that Brandes's perception is very different from my own. That was a very interesting article, It's hard to tell, but I think perhaps that Brandes is not AA hImself...it would seem to me that several of these observations seem to have been shaped by a premiss, regarding a Protestant/Catholic antipathy. By way of observation, my visits to Alcoholics Anonymous Groups in Mexico have shown me that "A Power greater than myself", in fact, a Power greater than Protestant Christianity or Catholicism, is no doubt at work in the rooms of Alcoholics Anonymous in the world today. I particularly note the idea that "Mexican" meeting rooms (as opposed to our own?) are set up to emulate "sacred space" ... true perhaps, but I'd say that they resemble any large meeting room anywhere in the world (as do ours) for that matter, I think, it is quite possible today that the nature and arrangement of common meeting rooms have been influenced as much by AA as the other way around. I've had the opportunity to travel on three separate occasions into Mexico, including Mexico City, all in the service of Alcoholics Anonymous. In that regard I have been very fortunate indeed. Having been in a lot of meeting rooms in Mexico, I'd say the most distinctive feature about their meeting rooms is the inclusion amidst the seating chairs of a number of, often identical, one or two tiered "occaisional tables" to accomodate coffee, water, tea and sometimes cakes or snacks ... these are served with gusto throughout the meeting and are not considered as interuptions in the slightest. The Membership reminds me of what I believe our own earlier AA must have been like. They are very concerned with helping one another to grow and to flourish in AA ... the role of the Padrino (Sponsor) is taken seriously as is the role of the Ahijado (Sponsee). I am myself a Padrino today, as well as a Sponsor here in our own country. Another marvel of the internet, and another blessing to be sure. Rather than a Churchlike atmosphere, I'd say a typical Mexican Meeting Room resembles a kind of living room oriented in one particular direction, most often with a podium and a desk (also prominent) at the focal point of the room ... (a reminder perhaps that the speaker or speakers are only a part of the business of the meeting which is controlled by the secretary seated there)...and with Coffee and water being served about you it is sometimes like an Airline flight in progress. Any resemblance to a Church layout or to a "Confessional" approach to speaking could certainly be made with English speaking AA as well and certainly belies the idea of the overwhelming influence of either Christian or Catholic religions. I don't know of any wall decor more prevalent than the slogans, (these, as printed by both AAWS and the Mexican GSO's may appear "Catholic" to some due to their use of Gothic Script) and, as a matter of course in Mexican meeting rooms the "Responsibility Statement", is displayed prominently, often taking the place of the Serenity Prayer in English speaking or "American" meeetings. The "Responsibility Statement" is taken very seriously by the members of every group that i've had the good fortune to visit. Our Hispanic members are wonderful people with admirable sense of concern for one another. A visit to Mexico has the spiritual effect on me of attending an AA "Revival". While I don't know the exact ratio of men to women in Mexican AA, I've never noticed any noticeable shortage of ladies present, to the contrary, I've met a good number of very active women in the meetings there. Finally, regarding the "male" nature of the comments overheard at meetings, it seems to me that men tend to talk that way amongst themselves all over the world, (I often wonder what the women talk about?), and, of course, we are each of us, in varying stages of recovery ourselves, especially with regard to our consideration for others. Is there really a dual standard in effect here, and if so, is it a cultural, thing, or does it really have anything to do with AA? I'm sure that such a thing is perhaps valid as a personal observation; but I am not sure of its relevance in an "AA" context. I guesss that's the "group dynamics" part of his study. Without a doubt all AA's speak one language in common "la Lingua de Corazon"...the Language of the Heart. It is very true that Spanish- speaking AA is something which should be appreciated, not only as a growing thing, but as recognizable and spiritual force for good in AA today, and it should not be brushed aside or overlooked. Tu Companero, Woody in Akron IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4060. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr Bob''s signature From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/1/2007 6:31:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII After recently buying a signed book that was in Dr.Bob's library,I asked a question to AAHL's asking if they knew about any other books he had signed. One member had three, and another had one. It appears that there may not be many books out there signed by Dr. Smith. I assumed that the Akron Archives would have many and once again I was wrong. Gail L. informed me that "We have a signature of Dr. Bob's in a first edition first printing Big Book. That is the only original signature that we have. The Smith children sold everything and most of it is now at Brown University. I found Dr. Bob's "What is the Oxford Group" book and donated it to Dr. Bob's House. It was signed: R H Smith, 855 Ardmore, "His book, please return" Anything that you have that we can pass on to the many who visit would be appreciated." The book I bought was purchased so that it could be shown. I will carry it to Jared L's archives workshop in Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania and also to the 11th National Archives Convention September 6-9 in Phoenix, Arizona. If you own AA memorabilia be sure to have it legally given (willed) to your Intergroup etc. Make sure your next of kin understands your wishes and how valuable the material may be to others. If Akron only has one signature, I can only shudder when I think of how many of our archives have been thrown away by family and friends not knowing what they are.I think that there must be some of Dr.Bob's books in the Akron area that were given by Sue or Smitty, to their friends, that should find their way to the Akron AA Archives. What a legacy for an AA to pass on to others; the archives that rightfully belong to us all. The demand and cost of AA memorsbilia is sky high. Just look at an auction on E-Bay. A Big Red with a DJ goes for $20,000. Sobriety has made many AA's very wealthy,but it does not relinquish them from helping others. Giving to Archives is in the realm of the 7th tradition. Shakey Mike Gwirtz Philadelphia, Pennsylvania IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4061. . . . . . . . . . . . Gail La C. and the house at 855 Ardmore From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/2/2007 3:45:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have a scanned copy of the initial legal document (the purchase agreement) for the sale of Dr. Bob's house at 855 Ardmore Avenue (see the photo of the property on p. 41 of "Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers"). It was sent to me by "DONALD BENNITT" dbennitt@sbcglobal.net (dbennitt at sbcglobal.net), for which I greatly thank him. If I may summarize the principle parts of the purchase agreement: - - - - Spalding Realty Co, Option to Purchase Real Estate, dated October 5, 1984. Seller: Theodore F. Walter Buyer: Gail La C. For the property at 855 Ardmore Avenue, Akron, Ohio 44302 for a total price of $38,000.00. It was accompanied by $500.00 earnest money. This option was set up so that the next stages of the purchase would have to be made before 5:00 p.m. on April 3, 1985, including appropriate written notification and the receipt by the seller of an additional $2,500.00. The purchase agreement was signed by the seller and by the buyer Gail La C., c/o Attorney Frank Miller, 1113 Centran Bldg., Akron, OH 44308 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4062. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr.Bob''s house, Gail L. and the Founders Foundation From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/1/2007 5:54:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII AAHL's, Shakey Mike contacted Gail L.,the Akron Archivist, and asked her what her role was in obtaining the Dr. Bob House in Akron. Gail replied and allowed me to reprint her emails. Gail commented, - - - - "I alone negotiated the purchase of Dr. Bob's home and held it in name while the Foundation continued to collect money. The negotiated purchase document froze the deal until it could actually be transferred to Founders' Foundation. I still have a copy of the document with only my name on it. "However, I was an early member and part of the Founders Foundation. I was the one chosen to make the deal and I did so in my name. It was not the final mortgage that I signed. "Does that help??" - - - - In a second posting she further added, "There is a man on the board of Dr. Bob's house by the name of Bruce who is writing up the history of the purchase of the home for their web page. He should help add clarity to the history of the purchase of the home. "I showed him many of the early documents. I guess you could share what I shared with you. It was decided that I would be the one to negotiate the purchase because I knew the owner and had approached him on my own with interest in the house. I was sworn to secrecy and was to tell no one. Gail" - - - - What this means is that she bid on the house and froze the deal until the actual mortgage was secured. It was the details of the securing of the final mortgage arrangement that I previously posted. It seems that so many worked in various ways to secure Dr. Bob's house for all of us that it gets back to the basics of AA. Stay sober and help the newcomer. Dr.Bob's home has helped so many and will continue to help others. The birthplace of AA is a national treasure. A lot of AA's came together in a time of need to help each other to help others by giving unselfishly and preserving our past for our future. It may have been wrong of me initially to want to give all the credit to Wesley P., or Kay, or any other individual when this prosess of getting and preserving our Dr. Bob house was brought about through a divine process in which many participated. This does,however, allow us the opportunity to record for others the correct sequence of events that led to this event. Your's in Service, Shakey Mike Gwirtz Going to Phoenix in Sept. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4063. . . . . . . . . . . . Gail La C. and the National Archives Workshops From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/2/2007 3:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Gail La C. (Akron, Ohio) is best known in the fellowship for having spearheaded the formation of the National Archives Workshops. She was one of the key people on the planning committees which organized the ones which were held in Akron. I am trying to create a list of the workshops in order, and where they were held. In going through my files, I am finding a lot of gaps. I apologize for not having written these things down. But could the members of the AAHL help me reconstruct the full list? - - - - 1st 1996 Akron 2nd 1997 Akron 3rd 1998 Akron 4th 1999 5th 2000 6th 2001 Clarksville, Indiana 7th 2002 8th 2003 Fort Lauderdale, Florida 9th 2004 Murfreesboro, Tennessee (near Nashville) 10th 2006 Baton Rouge, Louisiana (originally set for New Orleans, but had to be postponed a year because of the hurricane) 11th 2007 Phoenix, Arizona - - - - There was one in Chicago, I believe (perhaps the 5th) and one on the west coast (which must have been the 7th), but I did not keep any notes in my files on these. I was not at the first Akron conference, but attended the second one, where I got to meet Gail, Ernie Kurtz, Mel Barger, and Mary Darrah, among others, for the first time. I was on the planning committee for the one in Indiana (along with Floyd P. and Frank N. from Indiana, Jim Dorrycott who built the excellent Tennessee archival repository, and Rick T. from Illinois). I spoke (along with Sgt. Bill S.) at the one in Fort Lauderdale (where I got to meet a lot of fine people), and attended the one in Tennessee (where I got to tour the Upper Room headquarters for the first time, a place that I believe ought to be put on the short list of "sacred sites" for AA people to visit when they are passing through that state, especially the Upper Room Chapel). But I think it would be good to get a full listing, and more details on these National Archives Workshops, because they have been so important in the creation of a new historical awareness and interest among people in the AA fellowship, not only in the U.S. and Canada, but all over the world. Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4064. . . . . . . . . . . . List of the National Archives Workshops From: Cindy Miller . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/2/2007 6:49:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII THE COMPLETE LIST OF THE NATIONAL ARCHIVES WORKSHOPS 1st 1996 Akron 2nd 1997 Akron 3rd 1998 Akron 4th 1999 Chicago, Illinois 5th 2000 Seattle, Washington 6th 2001 Clarksville, Indiana (across Ohio river from Louisville, Kentucky) 7th 2002 San Bernardino, California 8th 2003 Fort Lauderdale, Florida 9th 2004 Murfreesboro, in central Tennessee (about forty miles from Nashville) 10th 2006 Baton Rouge, Louisiana (originally set for New Orleans, but the hurricane struck in 2005) 11th 2007 Phoenix, Arizona - - - - Cindy Miller and Sally Brown completed the list for us. Thanks! Glenn Chesnut, Moderator. - - - - From Cindy Miller (cm53 at earthlink.net) HI-- I think 1999 was in Chicago, 2000 was in Seattle, and 2001 was Louisville, KY. cm - - - - From: "Sally Brown" (rev.sally at worldnet.att.net) Hi, Glenn, Sept 26-29, 2002, San Bernardino, California. Dave and I were speakers that year. It was loads of fun meeting folks. Were you there? Shalom - Sally IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4065. . . . . . . . . . . . Re:Relationships for the newly-sobered... From: robin_foote . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/31/2007 6:30:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Guys, Living Sober has the following: 24 Steering clear of emotional entanglements So, using "First Things First," we have found it helpful to concentrate first on sobriety alone, steering clear of any risky emotional entanglements. Immature or premature liaisons are crippling to recovery. Only after we have had time to mature somewhat beyond merely not drinking, are we equipped to relate maturely to other people. Love, in Fellowship Robin F. Australia [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4066. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Relationships for the newly-sobered... From: Doucet, Dale T . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/1/2007 4:32:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There is a video that I watched at Doctor Bob's house not too long ago. In this video they make mention of the first "AA couple" and I think it stated that one of the recently sober members committed suicide soon after the relationship started or ended. The video goes on to mention that this failed relationship came from ignoring the one year suggestion. Thanks, Dale D IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4067. . . . . . . . . . . . Significant February Dates in A.A. History From: chesbayman56 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/1/2007 6:34:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Feb 1908 - Bill made boomerang. Feb 1916 - hazing incident Norwich University, Bill and sophomore class suspended Feb 1938 - Rockefeller gives $5,000 to AA. - Saves AA from professionalization. Feb 1939 - Dr Harry Tiebout, 1st Psychiatrist to endorse AA and use in his practice. Feb 1939 - Dr Howard of Montclair, NJ suggests swapping "you musts" for "we ought" in the Big Book. Feb 1940 - 1st AA clubhouse opens at 334-1/2 West 24th Street, NYC. Feb 1951 - Fortune magazine article about AA. New York reprints in pamphlet form for many years. Feb 1963 - Harpers carries article critical of AA. Feb 1981 - 1st issue of "Markings" AA Archives Newsletter is published. Feb 1 or 2, 1942 - Ruth Hock, AA's 1st paid secretary, resigns to get married. Feb 8, 1940 - Rockefeller dinner. Feb 8, 1940 - Houston Press ran first of 6 anonymous articles on AA by Larry J. Feb 9, 2002 - Sue Smith Windows, Dr Bob's daughter died. Feb 11, 1937 - First New Jersey meeting was held at the home of Hank P "The Unbeliever" in the first edition). Some sources report this as happening Feb 13, 1937 Feb 11, 1938 - Clarence S. ("Home Brewmeister" 1st-3rd edition) sobriety date. Feb 14, 1971 - AA groups worldwide hold memorial service for Bill W. Feb 14, 2000 - William Y., "California Bill" dies in Winston Salem, NC. Feb 15, 1918 - Sue Smith Windows, Dr. Bob's adopted daughter, was born. Feb 15, 1941 - Baltimore Sunday Sun reported that the city's first AA group, begun in June 1940, had grown from 3 to 40 members. Feb 17, - Jim B contacted Charlie B, whom he had met once, some two years before, at a New York AA meeting. Feb 18, 1943 - During gas rationing in WWII, AA's are granted the right to use cars for 12th step work in emergency cases. Feb 19, 1967 - Father "John Doe" (Ralph P), 1st Catholic Priest in AA dies. Feb 20, 1941 - The Toledo Blade published first of three articles on AA by Seymour Rothman. Feb 23, 1959 - AA granted "Recording for the Blind" permission to tape the Big Book. Feb 28, 1940 - First organization meeting of Philadelphia AA was held at McCready Huston's room at 2209 Delancy Street. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4068. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: Bertha Bamford''s grave in Indiana??? From: John Lee . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/1/2007 6:24:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Did anyone bother to check the Bamford family plot in Vermont to see if there's a gravestone for Bertha? Even though she was never buried in Vermont, it's common practice to have uncompleted grave markers. If there's a gravemarker for Bertha in Vermont, then there would be some basis for Bill's claim that he visited Bertha's gravesite. john lee IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4069. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Relationships for the newly-sobered... From: David Johnson . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/2/2007 12:54:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In addition to some specific advice in this area of relationships, it has been indirectly but quite thoroughly addressed to the fellow member and/or sponsor of that person in the Big Book, p.69 and 70. All quotes come from these two pages. "We do not want to be the arbiter of anyone's sex conduct." And then the advice for the person in question: "We reviewed our own conduct over the years past. Where had we been selfish, dishonest, or inconsiderate? Whom had we hurt? Did we unjustifiably arouse jealousy, suspicion or bitterness? Where were we at fault, what should we have done instead? We got this all down on paper and looked at it. In this way we tried to shape a sane and sound ideal for our future sex life. We subjected each relation to this test - was it selfish or not? We asked God to mold our ideals and help us to live up to them. We remembered always that our sex powers were God-given and therefore good, neither to be used lightly or selfishly nor to be despised and loathed. Whatever our ideal turns out to be, we must be willing to grow toward it. We must be willing to make amends where we have done harm, provided that we do not bring about still more harm in so doing. In other words, we treat sex as we would any other problem. In meditation, we ask God what we should do about each specific matter. The right answer will come, if we want it." Back to everyone else: "God alone can judge our sex situation. Counsel with persons is often desirable, but we let God be the final judge." We're human, we'll probably make mistakes. What then? "Suppose we fall short of the chosen ideal and stumble? Does this mean we are going to get drunk? Some people tell us so. But this is only a half-truth. It depends on us and on our motives. If we are sorry for what we have done, and have the honest desire to let God take us to better things, we believe we will be forgiven and will have learned our lesson. If we are not sorry, and our conduct continues to harm others, we are quite sure to drink." Then Bill closes with the following: "To sum up about sex: We earnestly pray for the right ideal, for guidance in each questionable situation, for sanity, and for the strength to do the right thing. If sex is very troublesome, we throw ourselves the harder into helping others. We think of their needs and work for them. This takes us out of ourselves. It quiets the imperious urge, when to yield would mean heartache." Personal responsibility, personal choice, self-examination, open to guidance from God and others, provided: "We realize that some people are as fanatical about sex as others are loose. We avoid hysterical thinking or advice." He describes fanatics this way: "One school would allow man no flavor for his fare and the other would have us all on a straight pepper diet. We want to stay out of this controversy." Finally, it's probably important to note that it is primarily religions which are cited when talking about the de facto "sin" of pre-marital sex. Given AA has NO affiliation with "any related facility or outside enterprise including, for example, Christianity, Judaism or Hinduism," it can hardly dictate group and individual morality based on any specific religion. Steps two, six and ten act as protection against those who would dictate any particular flavor of morality and direction. Having said all of this, a fellow member or a sponsor, sharing her or his personal experience, strength and hope in this area would prove quite helpful, perhaps even indispensable, to anyone interested in exploring this or any other topic and cannot be dismissed out of hand. One drunk talking to another. > AAHL, > A sponsee asked me if I knew specifically > in either the Big Book or the 12and12 if the subject > of refraining from relationships (or any other > thing that might interfere with sobriety) for > the first year or so. > > That's the general wisdom of my home group > and I've heard that advice given before, but > I don't know if it's ever been addressed in > any Conference-approved literature, or on this > site, for that matter. > > Any help would be greatly appreciated! > > Spiritus contra spiritum! > Terry P. > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4070. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Twelve Steps and the Older Member From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/30/2007 3:42:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Barry, I suggest that you hang on to that book; there are probably few copies around. You probably know it was written by Jerome Ellison, who had a great career as a writer and editor before alcoholism laid him low. He came back in sobriety to become a fairly successful writer again and was, for a short time, editor of the Grapevine. He was also a professor at Indiana University for seven years. I met him once at the Grapevine offices and also spent an afternoon visiting with him at his home in Guilford, CT., in early 1964. He passed away many years ago. Mel Barger melb@accesstoledo.com (melb at accesstoledo.com) ----- Original Message ----- From: Barry Murtaugh To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 12:01 AM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Twelve Steps and the Older Member Hi Folks, Here on my desk is a paperback with a blue coated stock cover with the numeral "12" in gold on it, upper right corner. Cover is glued to stapled text pages, 5 1/2" x 7 1/8" Inside is the title page: "TWELVE STEPS and the older Member" Publisher line is: "Older Member Press,Box 25, Guilford, Conn" Copyright page: "Copyright 1964 by Older Member Press First Serial rights granted A.A. Grapevine 1954 through 1963; all other rights retained by copyright owner. First Printing June, 1964. Library of Congress catalog number:64-22572 Price Two Dollars" Great lines from the intro: "The newest newcomer is just as authentically an explorer into the infinite as were Bill and Bob when they founded AA on June 10,1935. Nobody can take the Tweve Steps for anybody else. Each individual who sets his foot on the road suggested by the Steps finds himself on his own endlessly challenging, sometime perilous journey into undiscovered territory." In Gratitude 12/24/06 Happy Christmas from Barrington, IL Barry Barry Murtaugh CMLJBM@VOYAGER.NET [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4071. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: Bertha Bamford''s grave in Indiana??? From: John Lee . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/1/2007 6:24:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Did anyone bother to check the Bamford family plot in Vermont to see if there's a gravestone for Bertha? Even though she was never buried in Vermont, it's common practice to have uncompleted grave markers. If there's a gravemarker for Bertha in Vermont, then there would be some basis for Bill's claim that he visited Bertha's gravesite. john lee IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4072. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bertha Bamford''s grave in Indiana??? From: johnpublico . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/2/2007 2:19:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I'd like to correct a mistake in my earlier post. The Factory Point Cemetery is in Manchester Center (about 2 mi from Burr and Burton Academy where Bill W. and Bertha Bamford were seniors), not in Dorsett, as I stated. "Pass It On" quotes articles in the Manchester Journal which state that Bertha's remains were placed in a receiving vault at Center Cemetery on November 22 "to be taken on to Jeffersonville, Ind, Mrs. Bamford's home, for interment." The Center Cemetery referred to is probably the Factory Point Cemetery in Manchester Center. Since Bertha was interred in Indiana on November 28th, it would seem that Bill could have visited the receiving vault in Manchester Center for no more than a couple days before Bertha's remains were sent by rail to their final rest at the Walnut Ridge Cemetery in Jeffersonville, Indiana. Though Bill might have been unable to visit Bertha's gravesite, he might well have mourned her passing at the Delwood Cemetery, a beautiful, tranquil cemetery very near the school. John K. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4073. . . . . . . . . . . . Legacy of Wesley P Big Book Study and Purchasing Dr Bobs House... From: JOHN e REID . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/31/2007 1:38:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There were also a good contribution from Members in Australia towards the purchase of Dr. Bob's house. This was as a result of Wesley's (and Wayne P from Hugoton Kansas who was Wesley's travelling mate) visit in 1978 during which time they stayed with my wife and I and family for circa 2 weeks and helped start a number of Big Book Studies and give talks on the Traditions. Wayne P spent further time close time with us both in Australia and at his Rocky Mountain retreat and was always enthusiastic in creating attraction towards the Dr. Bob House Foundation and the legacy Wesley P left after his passing in 1985. Wesley was not well enough to make the 50th Anniversary International in Montreal but Wayne P arranged for some of us including Charlie and Joe to talk to Wesley by phone. As part of his legacy Wesley sure did us all proud in New Orleans 1980 when he and Wayne P organised a luncheon with Lois W as the guest of Honour!!! Wesley had planted audio copies of the Charlie and Joe Big Book Study cassette under selected chairs. Wesley had worked out who may well make good use of this material and his selections proved reasonably correct. The was a good number of Members from Australia at the luncheon and when we bought Charlie and Joe here during the 1980's they attributed the success to the growth in their approach, to the its real kick start God had provided through Wesley P's enthusiasm. This coming March 2007 a Big Book Study Weekend will be conducted in the Gold Coast of Queensland Australia and one of the Members (Peter McK) coordinating the weekend was at that luncheon at the Marriott in New Orleans in 1980. Wesley always talked about enthusiasm coming from an ancient word meaning "God Within!!!!" He sure generated some enthusiasm in his short time DownUnder in Australia. Kind Regards, John R from Brisbane Tradition Group Queensland Australia. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4074. . . . . . . . . . . . The Division of AA in Mexico (and Finland) From: Jari Kokkinen . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/3/2007 4:07:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi everybody! While I've been reading your comments on the study of AA in Mexico City I ventured to bring myself into asking you all that know or have thoughts about what is the foundation and current state of AA's division in Mexico. This I ask because in Finland we too have two competing service structures. Any thoughts appreciated. In Sobriety, Jari from Finland ____________________________________________________ Yahoo! Photos is now offering a quality print service from just 7p a photo. http://uk.photos.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4075. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Re: Twelve Steps and the Older Member From: Chris Budnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/3/2007 4:15:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Is this the same Jerome Ellison who wrote a piece in the Saturday Evening Post about Narcotics Anonymous? (These Drug Addicts Cure One Another - Aug. 7, 1954) and Al-Anon (Help For The Alcoholic's Family - July 2, 1955) I found this online: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9503E7DD1338F933A25755C0A9679 48260 Jerome Ellison, Author And Ex-Collier's Editor Published: June 10, 1981 Jerome Ellison, author and former managing editor of Collier's, died yesterday in the Connecticut Hospice in Branford. He was 73 years old. For a number of years, he had lived in Guilford, Conn. Mr. Ellison was a founder of Associated Magazine Contributors, a corporation begun in 1946 as an owner-contributor publication. Among the co-owners were Pearl Buck, Roger Butterfield, John Steinbeck and John Dos Passos. The pocket-sized magazine appeared on newsstands as '47 Magazine and lasted a few years. A longtime magazine contributor and editor, Mr. Ellison had worked on Life, Liberty and The Reader's Digest, as well as Collier's. During World War II, he was editorial director of the Bureau of Overseas Publications of the Office of War Information. Mr. Ellison's books included ''The Prisoner Ate a Hearty Breakfast,'' ''John Brown's Soul,'' ''The Dam'' and ''Report to the Creator.'' Surviving are two daughters, Judith Ogden of Lincoln, Mass., and Julie Ellison of Ann Arbor, Mich., and a grandson. _____ From: Mel Barger Subject: Re: Twelve Steps and the Older Member Hi Barry, I suggest that you hang on to that book; there are probably few copies around. You probably know it was written by Jerome Ellison, who had a great career as a writer and editor before alcoholism laid him low. He came back in sobriety to become a fairly successful writer again and was, for a short time, editor of the Grapevine. He was also a professor at Indiana University for seven years. I met him once at the Grapevine offices and also spent an afternoon visiting with him at his home in Guilford, CT., in early 1964. He passed away many years ago. Mel Barger (melb at accesstoledo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4076. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bertha Bamford''s grave in Indiana??? From: johnpublico . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/3/2007 10:16:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII That's a good thought, John. However, the Bamfords did not have a family plot in Vermont. In the Archives article that Gary L. referenced earlier (http://www.aa.org/en_pdfs/f- 151_markings_winter06.pdf), William W. writes that he found gravesites for Bertha as well as her parents in the Jeffersonville, Indiana, cemetery. From what I've been able to find out about the Bamfords, Rev. Walter H. Bamford, Bertha's father, was born in Hampshire, England in 1856 and came to this country at the age of 34. He died in 1926, 14 years after Bertha. Her mother, Julia Reed Bamford, was born in Jeffersonville, Indiana, in 1856 and died at the ripe old age of 101. The archives article says they're buried under a common headstone nearby Bertha in Jeffersonville. Bertha also had a brother, a year younger, named Walter H. Bamford, Jr.. I haven't been able to find out too much about him except that he lived for a time in Passaic, NJ and New York City and worked in advertising (I think). Here's another piece of Bamford trivia. In the Zion Church which still stands in Manchester and where Bertha's father was rector, is the following inscription on the beautiful brass lectern: To the Glory of God and in Loving Memory of Bertha Dorothea Bamford at Rest - November 19, 1912 - R.I.P. John K. --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, John Lee wrote: > > Did anyone bother to check the Bamford family > plot in Vermont to see if there's a gravestone > for Bertha? Even though she was never buried > in Vermont, it's common practice to have > uncompleted grave markers. If there's a > gravemarker for Bertha in Vermont, then there > would be some basis for Bill's claim that he > visited Bertha's gravesite. > > john lee > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4077. . . . . . . . . . . . Baltimore Chip House: name of chart on wall From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/6/2007 12:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: (joejackson_40 at yahoo.com) I stopped by the Chip House the other day to see a friend celebrate an anniversary. The chart that Rob W. linked to is very similar to that on the wall at 2613 N. Calvert Street. The salient difference is that at the bottom of the chart Rob noted there is a single, broad loop indicating the vicious cycle with which many of us are far too familiar. At the bottom of the chart at the Chip House is a series of smaller, seemingly interconnected loops indicating the same cycle. Here's what I noted as the source of the chart at the Chip House: The chart on the wall was distributed at the time of its printing by the National Council on Alcohol Dependency. It was reprinted from the British Journal of Addiction Vol. 54 No. 2 in a paper called "Group Therapy in Alcoholism" by M.M. Glatt PhD. BTW -- the Chip House was renovated a few years ago. It's brighter and much less smokey now; no smoking is allowed, in fact, even in front of the place. During the renovation, the chart was relocated. It now hangs in the main room on the wall to the left as one enters the room from Calvert Street. The Charles Village Group still holds AA Meetings every day at the Chip House. I heard this (paraphrase) in my first year from a low-bottom drunk who'd recovered from a seemingly hopeless state of mind and body: "I'm not sure where you'll find God, but I know He lives at the Chip House." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4078. . . . . . . . . . . . Wilson House Fire 1/28/07, E. Dorset VT From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/7/2007 8:33:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII An excerpt from a message from Dean at the Wilson House (where Bill Wilson was born) on Wed. 1/31/07: No warm fire to enjoy this time. A real scary chimney fire struck Sunday Night during my solitary shift. The Fire Dept. responded very fast thanks to neighbors calling 911, and the major damage was contained to the upper portion of the Chimney. (Working at the desk, I had no visual or auditory warning that a conflagration had started.) The intense heat warped and partially melted the exterior cap and dampener, and fractured the protective liner in several places at the attic level exposing the stone and mortar. If there had been any significant delay in notification or response time, the roof and attic would have ignited. The repairs won't come cheap; the top of the chimney needs to be extended higher to meet clearance code; but the bottom line is that the Wilson House is intact! DEAN IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4079. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Wesley P''s concordance From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/30/2007 5:24:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have seen about three copies of Poe's book sell on eBay for about $140 each over the past year. There were apparently two printings, 1990 and 1999. Tommy H in Baton Rouge - - - - From: "Mitchell K." (mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com) Dang it ... I purchased a couple of those $25 raffle tickets and didn't get my concordance. - - - - From: (dcatini at bellsouth.net) Just try online. There are many out there. Put concordance to BB in Google. It will come up. Sincerely, Denise - - - - >From: "momaria33772" >(jhoffma6 at tampabay.rr.com) > >I'm not sure specifically which Concordance is >referred to here, however, my friend Ray G., >the Dr. Bob's Home archivist,is a snow bird >here in Florida. > >He has a few copies of the huge blue hardcover >available, this is written by Stephen Poe >printed by Purple Salamander press 1990. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4080. . . . . . . . . . . . Joe and Charlie workshops functioning again From: momaria33772 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/31/2007 5:01:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Charlie P. just did the "Big Book Comes Alive Weekend" at Cocoa Beach, Forida on January 19-21, 2007. I have the entire weekend on CD. Joe is still not back on the road so Charlie was ably assisted by Wes B. of Canada. Maria Hoffman, Vision Audio Tapes and CD's -- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, CBBB164@... wrote: > > No they are not. Joe McQ has become the victim > of Parkinson's disease and was replaced by Joe McC. > > Charlie P. recently had a hip replacement and Joe > McC. has had a number of serious health problems. > > In God's love and service, > > Cliff Bishop > http://www.ppgaadallas.org > > - - - - - - > > From: Ollie Olorenshaw > ollie_olorenshaw@... > (ollie_olorenshaw at yahoo.com.au) > > As far as I am aware Joe and Charlie are no > longer conducting workshops but recordings of > past workshops are available from various places. > Here is one. > > www.12steptapes.com > > and another > > www.xa-speakers.org > > best wishes > > Ollie > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4081. . . . . . . . . . . . Pray for those against whom we hold a resentment From: Emmanuel . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/31/2007 4:35:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Can anyone tell me where it says to "pray for 2 weeks that the person I am resentful of receive all the happiness I would want" Peace and Happy Days o~`o Emmanuel S. John - - - - From the moderator: This is from the story "Freedom from Bondage," Big Book, first appearing in the 2nd ed. The passage is on p. 552 in both the 3rd ed. and 4th ed. "'If you have a resentment you want to be free of, if you will pray for the person or the thing that you resent, you will be free. If you will ask in prayer for everything you want for yourself to be given to them, you will be free .... Do it every day for two weeks and you will find you have come to mean it and to want it for them, and you will realize that where you used to feel bitterness and resentment and hatred, you now feel compassionate understanding and love.'" Mel Barger thinks the prominent clergyman referred to in the Big Book story as the source of that advice may have been Norman Vincent Peale, but has been unable to find the specific issue of the magazine where the article about resentment appeared: - - - - Message 3301 from Mel Barger http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/3301 Hi Friends: I would like to know the exact source of a wonderful quotation on dealing with resentment that appears in "Freedom From Bondage," a personal story in the Big Book. The personal story was first used in the 2nd edition, published in 1955, and has been retained in the 3rd and 2nd editions, which indicates that the editors felt it was of superior quality. Here's the quotation, which can be found on p. 552 of the 4th (latest) edition. The author said she found it in a magazine article and that it was about getting rid of resentment. It was by a prominent clergyman. He said, in effect: If you have a resentment you want to be free of, if you will pray for the person or the thing that you resent, you will be free. If you will ask in prayer for everything you want for yourself to be given to them, you will be free. Ask for their health, their prosperity, their happiness, and you will be free. Even when you don't really want it for them and your prayers are only words and you don't mean it, go ahead and do it anyway. Do it every day for two weeks, and you will find you have come to mean it and to want it for them, and you will realize that where you used to feel bitterness and resentment and hatred, you now feel compassionate understanding and love." The author went on to say it worked for her then and worked for her since and worked every time she was willing to work it. Who was the prominent clergyman who authored this quotation? My guess is that it was Norman Vincent Peale, who became very prominent with his 1952 publication of that blockbuster, "The Power of Positive Thinking." He was a good friend of AA and even devoted a large part of one chapter in that book to AA. But does anyone know where the above quotation appeared? It had to be before 1955, because that's when it first appeared in the Big Book. It was in a magazine with the word "resentment" on the cover, as this is what caught the Big Book writer's attention. It might have been in Guideposts magazine and slightly different from the quotation shown above, as the author used "in effect" in presenting it. It's a great quotation, by the way, and ought to be put on a card and passed around at meetings, especially when resentment is the topic. Come to think of it, I think I'll do that for my group her in Toledo and any of the History Lovers could easily download it from this message and circulate it in their own groups. LOL to All, Mel Barger, Toledo, Ohio melb@accesstoledo.com (melb at accesstoledo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4082. . . . . . . . . . . . When and how did Founders'' Day start? From: Robyn Mitchell . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/31/2007 11:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi there, Can anyone tell me when and how the celebration of Founders' Day in Akron first got started? Many thanks to all of you for your love of God, Alcoholics and Alcoholics Anonymous, Robyn IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4083. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Relationships for the newly-sobered... From: Dale D. . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/5/2007 10:15:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Doucet, Dale T" wrote: > > There is a video that I watched at Doctor Bob's > house not too long ago. In this video they make > mention of the first "AA couple" and I think it > stated that one of the recently sober members > committed suicide soon after the relationship > started or ended. The video goes on to mention > that this failed relationship came from ignoring > the one year suggestion. > > Thanks, > Dale D > I don't know who eddited my message but they changed the meaning. The point was that it was this failed relationship that the video claims "STARTED" the suggested of one year before relationships. Thanks, Dale D. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4084. . . . . . . . . . . . Tombstones of AA folks on the Find A Grave website From: Karl Kleen . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/5/2007 8:47:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Some internet links to photos of tombstones of AA connected folks on the Find A Grave website: Father Ed Dowling: http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSvcid=19285&GRid=16958125& Antoinette B Silkworth: http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSvcid=19285&GRid=11339783& William Duncan Silkworth: http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSvcid=19285&GRid=11339789& Anne Ripley Smith: http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSvcid=19285&GRid=5769885& Robert Holbrook "Doctor Bob" Smith: http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSvcid=19285&GRid=2536& Lois Burnham Wilson: http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSvcid=19285&GRid=3025& William G. "Bill" Wilson: http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSvcid=19285&GRid=2535& IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4085. . . . . . . . . . . . Faithful Fivers From: dallasaa95 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/5/2007 11:29:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does anyone know the background of this term? We use it for anyone giving to the Dallas Central Office on a monthly basis regardless of the actual amount. I was curious as to the origins for this and similar terms. Thanks, Janis IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4086. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The Division of AA in Mexico (and Finland) From: Lee Nickerson . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/5/2007 12:57:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have been away from the GSA for a while but here is what I remember of the Mexican situation. The original Conference in Mexico had gotten so far out of whack that at one point an AA Big Book cost nearly $30 (American). 20,000 Mexican AA's seceded from that Conference and formed a Conference called Seccion Mexico. AA New York would not recognize them and there was a problem getting books. That began the printing and distribution to Seccion of the little Big Book by what is now Anonymous Press. A lot of this is really unclear to my memory but basically that is what happened. It degenertaed to awful proportions and AAWS was suspected by many to be complicit in the events that followed; up to and including the arrest by the Federales of Seccion Mexico's trusted servants, the confiscation of their materials and the closing of the office. Many AAs in this Conference (US and Canada) including former Northeast Regional Trustee to the GSB, Jake H., protested AAWS's role in this mess and even went to Mexico to help untangle it. Apparently Seccion Mexico survived but I don't know its status today. That was a bad time in AAs history. AAWS and the General Service Board of Trustees was wielding its power disgracefully. I remember it actually solicited the City of San Diego for $150,000 just to grant San Diego the favor of holding our Intenational Convention there in 1995. Then there was the German situation where an AA was taken to court and bankrupted with the full approval of our General Service Office. Oh ...don't get me going! lee --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Jari Kokkinen wrote: > > Hi everybody! > > While I've been reading your comments on the > study of AA in Mexico City I ventured to bring > myself into asking you all that know or have > thoughts about what is the foundation and current > state of AA's division in Mexico. > > This I ask because in Finland we too have two > competing service structures. > > Any thoughts appreciated. > > In Sobriety, > > Jari from Finland IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4087. . . . . . . . . . . . 12x12 Question From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/9/2007 6:25:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Did Bill Wilson write the foreword to the 12x12? I have a 12x12 printed probably in the early '90s but there is no indication of printing number or date. A footnote on p. 15 says "In 1990. . . approximately two million have recovered through A.A." and a footnote on p. 18 says, "In 1990, A.A. is established in 134 countries." A list of the printings of the book show that the 43rd and 44th were printed in 1990. I wonder if any listers have these printings or might know which printing my mystery book is? Tommy H in Baton Rouge IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4088. . . . . . . . . . . . Grandaddy Wilson''s spiritual experience? From: Danny S . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/10/2007 10:30:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi everyone. Going through Wikipedia (ugh) I came across this regarding Bill Wilson's spiritual experience: ". . . .. his grandfather Willie Wilson had gone through such an experience on Mount Aeolus in East Dorset, Vermont; reported details almost identical to those Bill reported; rushed to the altar of the local Congregational Church; announced that he had been saved; and never drank again for the rest of his life." I am looking for some documentation of this event of William G. Wilson's. Can someone please direct and advise? Has anyone even heard this before? Thanks Peace, Danny Schwarzhoff - - - - From the moderator: One place this is described (I don't know if it is the only one) is in Susan Cheever, "My Name Is Bill" (New York: Washington Square Press, 2004), page 17: "William Wilson's drinking had led him to take a series of temperance pledges. One Sunday morning in despair he climbed to the top of Mount Aeolus and beseeched God to help him. He saw a blinding light and felt a great wind, and rushed down into town to interrupt the service at the Congregational Church. Demanding that the minister leave the pulpit, Wilson described his experience to the congregation of his friends, neighbors, and family. Emily loved this story about her husband's father, and she told it to her son and husband as often as they would listen. In the eight years William Wilson lived after that experience, he never had another drink." But remember that Bill W. (the co-founder of AA) rarely talked about his own vision of the light. He did not regard that as an important part of his message. In the Big Book (p. 12), he describes what he regarded as his real conversion experience as taking place when Ebby came to talk to him in his kitchen. "Scales ... fell from my eyes" was a reference to the story of the conversion of the Apostle Paul on the Road to Damascus, and would have been recognized by almost all Protestants in the 1930's and 40's, because people still read their Bibles in those days. In other words, almost everybody in AA realized in 1939 that Bill was saying here, by that choice of words, that "THIS was MY real conversion experience." What his real conversion experience consisted of was remembering his experience in Winchester Cathedral, when he had felt the sense of God's presence there, but had turned away from that kind of feeling of God consciousness, and tried to handle his life totally on the basis of his own will power and ability to analyze things intellectually and come up with grand theories. And he also remembered the grandfather who told him that you could experience this same intuition of the sacred and the infinite while gazing up at the starry heavens at night. You didn't have to go into a church to understand the feeling of the divine presence. To better understand what Bill W. was talking about in that part of the Big Book, see Rudolf Otto, "The Idea of the Holy: An Inquiry into the Non-Rational Factor in the Idea of the Divine and Its Relation to the Rational." 2nd ed. Trans. John W. Harvey (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1950). Rudolf Otto was regarded as one of the two or three best theologians of that era. Although there is no indication that Bill W. had ever read Otto's book, many of the authors whom he DID read had read that book and were heavily influenced by Otto's ideas, including especially the people who were putting out The Upper Room, for whom the concept of maintaining continual "God consciousness" was extremely important. Given the difficulty of translating the English words "spirit" and "spirituality" into German, German-speaking AA's might find it very useful to read the original German of Otto's book, where he puts this in language which would be more intelligible within the context of German culture and traditional German vocabulary for talking about these issues: Rudolf Otto, "Das Heilige: Über das Irrationale in der Idee des göttlichen und sein Verhältnis zum Rationalen. 11th ed. Stuttgart: Friedrich Andreas Perthes, 1923. Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4089. . . . . . . . . . . . Which direction do we recover? Spiritual-Mental-Physical From: davidgolden99 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/8/2007 3:35:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The beginner's group where I got sober used an "AA definition" of alcoholism that says the disease affects us "spiritually, mentally and physically, and we recover in the reverse order (physically, mentally, then spiritually)." Page 64 of the Big Book (4th ed.) says, "When the spiritual malady is overcome, we straighten out mentally and physically." Is there an actually "AA definition" which reverses the order, and if so, what is its source? Is there a text, or is it part of an oral AA tradition? Why is the recovery in this definition which I was given the opposite of what is written in "How It Works?" IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4090. . . . . . . . . . . . Grandaddy Wilson''s spiritual experience? Hartigan''s book From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/10/2007 5:18:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII At 09:30 2/10/2007 , Danny S wrote: >Hi everyone. Going through Wikipedia (ugh) I >came across this regarding Bill Wilson's >spiritual experience: > >". . . .. his grandfather Willie Wilson had >gone through such an experience on Mount >Aeolus in East Dorset, Vermont; reported details >almost identical to those Bill reported; rushed >to the altar of the local Congregational Church; >announced that he had been saved; and never >drank again for the rest of his life." > >I am looking for some documentation of this >event of William G. Wilson's. Can someone >please direct and advise? Has anyone even >heard this before? Thanks > >Peace, > >Danny Schwarzhoff This same event is related in Francis Hartigan's book "Bill W., A Biography of Alcoholics Anonymous Cofounder Bill Wilson," Thomas Dunne Books, New York, 2001, on pages 10-11. "Bill's grandfather Wilson also linked Mount Aeolus to a profound spiritual experience. . . . he climbed Mount Aeolus. There, after beseeching God to help him, he saw a blinding light and felt the wind of the Spirit. It was a conversion experience that left him feeling so transformed that he practically ran down the mountain and into town. "When he reached the East Dorset Congregational Church, which is across the street from the Wilson House, the Sunday service was in progress. Bill's grandfather stormed into the church and demanded that the minister get down from the pulpit. Then, taking his place, he proceeded to relate his experience to the shocked congregation. Wilson's grandfather never drank again. He was to live another eight years, sober." Hartigen does not give the source of this story. It is not mentioned in Thomsen's book. Tommy H in Baton Rouge IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4091. . . . . . . . . . . . Wynn Corum (Law) and Marty Mann From: ann . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/11/2007 10:50:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I've been a part of AA for many years and I have been researching the women of AA. Does anyone know if Wynn Corum and Marty Mann knew each other? and to what extent their personal relationship was (if any?) They were both some of the first women of AA. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4092. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Re: The Division of AA in Mexico (and Finland) From: Jay Lawyer . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/11/2007 5:07:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Jari, Seccion Mexico is doing fine: http://aa.org.mx/ From my friend Norm D. I think GSOs, like groups, tend to get enough problems that someone or some group of folks will break away and start 'new' doing it the "right way" Jay --- In AAHistoryLovers@ yahoogroups.com, Jari Kokkinen wrote: > > Hi everybody! > > While I've been reading your comments on the > study of AA in Mexico City I ventured to bring > myself into asking you all that know or have > thoughts about what is the foundation and current > state of AA's division in Mexico. > > This I ask because in Finland we too have two > competing service structures. > > Any thoughts appreciated. > > In Sobriety, > > Jari from Finland [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4093. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Re: The Division of AA in Mexico (and Finland) From: Tom H. . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/11/2007 11:24:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII To the moderator, this is not true... "That was a bad time in AAs history. AAWS and the General Service Board of Trustees was wielding its power disgracefully. I remember it actually solicited the City of San Diego for $150,000 just to grant San Diego the favor of holding our Intenational Convention there in 1995." ...from the email below. - - - - - - - - San Diego had promised a transportation system that it did not deliver. As a result GSO had to pay for our membership to get back and forth to the venues. The check San Diego paid to GSO is only the same amount GSO paid for transportation. When a group (GSO) brings about 50 million dollars to a city this is nothing more than standard business practice. Does a city get the Olympics without promising to provide certain construction for venues and transportation? This is how false rumors get started. Thank you -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: The Division of AA in Mexico (and Finland) I have been away from the GSA for a while but here is what I remember of the Mexican situation. The original Conference in Mexico had gotten so far out of whack that at one point an AA Big Book cost nearly $30 (American). 20,000 Mexican AA's seceded from that Conference and formed a Conference called Seccion Mexico. AA New York would not recognize them and there was a problem getting books. That began the printing and distribution to Seccion of the little Big Book by what is now Anonymous Press. A lot of this is really unclear to my memory but basically that is what happened. It degenertaed to awful proportions and AAWS was suspected by many to be complicit in the events that followed; up to and including the arrest by the Federales of Seccion Mexico's trusted servants, the confiscation of their materials and the closing of the office. Many AAs in this Conference (US and Canada) including former Northeast Regional Trustee to the GSB, Jake H., protested AAWS's role in this mess and even went to Mexico to help untangle it. Apparently Seccion Mexico survived but I don't know its status today. That was a bad time in AAs history. AAWS and the General Service Board of Trustees was wielding its power disgracefully. I remember it actually solicited the City of San Diego for $150,000 just to grant San Diego the favor of holding our Intenational Convention there in 1995. Then there was the German situation where an AA was taken to court and bankrupted with the full approval of our General Service Office. Oh ...don't get me going! lee IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4094. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Grandaddy Wilson''s spiritual experience? From: Emmanuel . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/12/2007 9:34:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII It might also be worth noting that Bill's grandfather lived in the house right next door to the church. THis church is about 25 feet from the house. He would have had to run past the front door of the church to get home. For those who have not been there, this town has a total of about 10-15 houses, very small, and if he were to try and find anyone else he would have had to enter the bar (where the liquor was), now known as the Wilson House. Emmanuel Baltimore On 2/10/07, Tom Hickcox wrote: > > At 09:30 2/10/2007 , Danny S wrote: > > >Hi everyone. Going through Wikipedia (ugh) I > >came across this regarding Bill Wilson's > >spiritual experience: > > > >". . . .. his grandfather Willie Wilson had > >gone through such an experience on Mount > >Aeolus in East Dorset, Vermont; reported details > >almost identical to those Bill reported; rushed > >to the altar of the local Congregational Church; > >announced that he had been saved; and never > >drank again for the rest of his life." > > > >I am looking for some documentation of this > >event of William G. Wilson's. Can someone > >please direct and advise? Has anyone even > >heard this before? Thanks > > > >Peace, > > > >Danny Schwarzhoff > > This same event is related in Francis Hartigan's > book "Bill W., A Biography of Alcoholics > Anonymous Cofounder Bill Wilson," Thomas Dunne > Books, New York, 2001, on pages 10-11. > > "Bill's grandfather Wilson also linked Mount > Aeolus to a profound spiritual experience. . . . > he climbed Mount Aeolus. There, after > beseeching God to help him, he saw a blinding > light and felt the wind of the Spirit. It was > a conversion experience that left him feeling > so transformed that he practically ran down > the mountain and into town. > > "When he reached the East Dorset Congregational > Church, which is across the street from the > Wilson House, the Sunday service was in > progress. Bill's grandfather stormed into > the church and demanded that the minister get > down from the pulpit. Then, taking his place, > he proceeded to relate his experience to the > shocked congregation. Wilson's grandfather > never drank again. He was to live another > eight years, sober." Hartigen does not give > the source of this story. > > It is not mentioned in Thomsen's book. > > Tommy H in Baton Rouge IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4095. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The Division of AA in Mexico (and Finland) From: Arthur Sheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/12/2007 12:28:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Lee History is supposed to propagate facts not beliefs. If you would care to review "the other side" of the German lawsuit story, please refer to AAHL messages 2860, 2873 and 2907. Message 2860 contains a General Service Board report to the 2004 General Service Conference. It details how from 1993 (and for over a decade) they tried to get the German AA member to stop violating German copyright law (he was actually distributing Big Books in several countries in several languages). Message 2873 responds to a criticism posted in AAHL that echoed the same litany of criticisms that have been directed at the GSB, AAWS and GSO. Message 2907 is a detailed analysis of the German Big Book translation versus the English counterpart. The most stunning discovery was how the German AA member, who is portrayed as some sort of martyr (no pun intended on his name) had no factual basis for his claims that the German Big Book translation removed reference to "God" and "spirituality" from text. His whole case rested on torturous semantic hair-splitting of the use of the German words "geistig" and "seelisch" in the translation instead of his preferred German word "spirtuelle." There is a point of interest regarding the past $30 Big Book price in Mexico (which today's Spanish language version costs $6 from AAWS). The $3.50 price of the 1939 first edition Big Book would be the equivalent of around $50 in 2006 dollars. It was a very expensive book. An English language hard cover 4th edition Big Book today costs $6 from AAWS. That's about 1/8 of what it cost 1i 1939 (disregarding collector's value of course). It would be nice to give the GSB, AAWS and GSO some credit where credit is due. Cheers Arthur (PS haven't posted here in a while - been very, very busy) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4096. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Wynn Corum (Law) and Marty Mann From: Sally Brown . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/13/2007 1:02:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dave and I didn't come across Wynn Corum's name when we were researching the Marty Mann bio, but I would guess that both women did know each other. I would love to know about Wynn. City? Approximate sobriety date and age? Anything of her story? And what is Ann's particular interest? Etc? Thanks, and shalom - Sally - - - - Rev Sally Brown, coauthor with David R Brown: "A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann: The First Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous" Board Certified Clinical Chaplain United Church of Christ www.sallyanddavidbrown.com 1470 Sand Hill Road, 309 Palo Alto, CA 94304 Phone/Fax: 650 325 5258 Email: rev.sally@att.net (rev.sally at att.net) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4097. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Which direction do we recover? Spiritual-Mental-Physical From: David Jones . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/10/2007 5:03:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I would suggest it is the opposite of the definition you have written to ‘How It Works’, because of the way the big book defines the illness of alcoholism and also its solution. First the book defines the illness as being physical, then mental; and possibly spiritual (the so-called hole in the soul). Then it outlines the solution which is spiritual in nature to overcome the physical and mental; especially the mental. I would suggest that a recovery that appeared to be at first physical, then mental, then spiritual to be illusory. If I simply stopped drinking I would physically improve, but would I be recovering mentally? And if not mentally then how could I be recovering spiritually? By adopting a spiritual solution I am employing spiritual principles: honesty, openness, willingness, humility, etc. As well as in the other sense God to recover. Recovery must begin first with the spiritual, and as it begins I then begin to straighten out both physically and mentally. Here is Carl Jung’s letter to Bill W. (BELOW) I conclude do I straighten out physically, mentally and then wait for the miracle to happen; or is it the other way round? God bless Dave - - - - - - - - Carl Jung's letter to Bill W Your letter has been very welcome indeed. I had no news from Roland H. anymore and often wondered what had been his fate. Our conversation which he has adequately reported to you had an aspect of which he did not know. The reason that I could not tell him everything was that those days I had to be exceedingly careful of what I said. I had found out that I was misunderstood in every possible way. Thus I was very careful when I talked to Roland H. But what I really thought about, was the result of many experiences with men of his kind. His craving for alcohol was equivalent, on a low level, of the spiritual thirst of our being for wholeness, expressed in medieval language: the union with God. How could one formulate such an insight in a language that is not misunderstood in our days? The only right and legitimate way to such an experience is, that it happens to you in reality and it can only happen to you when you walk on a path that leads you to a higher understanding. You might be led to that goal by an act of grace or through a personal and honest contact with friends, or through a higher education of the mind beyond the confines of mere rationalism. I see from your letter that Roland H. has chosen the second way, which was, under the circumstances, obviously the best one. I am strongly convinced that the evil principle prevailing in this world leads the unrecognised spiritual need into perdition, if it is not counteracted either by real religious insight or by the protective wall of human community. And ordinary man, not protected by an action from above and isolated in society, cannot resist the power of evil, which is called very aptly the Devil. But the use of such words arouses so many mistakes that one can only keep aloof from them as much as possible. These are the reasons why I could not give a full and sufficient explanation to Roland H. but I am risking it with you because I conclude from your very decent and honest letter that you have acquired a point of view above the misleading platitudes one usually hears about alcoholism. You see, Alcohol in Latin is “spiritus” and you use the same word for the highest religious experience as well as for the most depraving poison. The helpful formula therefore is: SPIRITUS CONTRA SPIRITUM. Thanking you again for your kind letter. I remain sincerely yours C.G.Jung - - - - - - - - The beginner's group where I got sober used an "AA definition" of alcoholism that says the disease affects us "spiritually, mentally and physically, and we recover in the reverse order (physically, mentally, then spiritually)-." Page 64 of the Big Book (4th ed.) says, "When the spiritual malady is overcome, we straighten out mentally and physically." Is there an actually "AA definition" which reverses the order, and if so, what is its source? Is there a text, or is it part of an oral AA tradition? Why is the recovery in this definition which I was given the opposite of what is written in "How It Works?" IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4098. . . . . . . . . . . . Ernie Kurtz, "Shame and Guilt," now available online From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/14/2007 2:36:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Ernie Kurtz, "Shame and Guilt," 2nd ed. revised and updated, now available online. This second edition, which has recently been revised and updated, will soon appear in print. But the entire book is now available to read online, for those who would like to read it in that format: http://hindsfoot.org/kek1.html http://hindsfoot.org/eksg.html ______________________________ Originally published twenty-six years ago as Shame and Guilt: Characteristics of the Dependency Cycle (A Historical Perspective for Professionals). Center City, Minnesota: Hazelden, 1981. ______________________________ Also by Kurtz: Not-God: A History of Alcoholics Anonymous (Hazelden) The Spirituality of Imperfection (Bantam) The Collected Ernie Kurtz (The Bishop of Books) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4099. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Wynn Corum (Law) and Marty Mann From: Fiona Dodd . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/13/2007 4:16:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Wynn Corum Laws stepdaughter Carolyn See wrote a book Dreaming: Hard Luck and Good Times in America, which more or less tells Wynn's story. I read it a few years ago and don't remember it mentioning Marty Mann or their knowing each other personally. Fiona IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4100. . . . . . . . . . . . Passing of Nell Wing From: amytreau . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/15/2007 4:26:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dear Friends: It is with great sadness that we share the news that Nell Wing died on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 at 7:00 p.m. after a lengthy illness. Nell was 89 years old. As most of you know, Nell was Bill W.'s secretary and assistant for 17 years and a close friend and long-time companion to Lois W. She worked at the General Service Office of A.A. from the beginning of 1947 until her retirement at the close of 1982, starting as a receptionist and later becoming secretary of A.A. World Services, Inc. Additionally, she served as G.S.O.'s first archivist for the last ten of her years at the office. The Archives opened in 1975. We would like to take a moment to celebrate Nell's life and share the following: From Markings, November/December 1983, when Nell announced her retirement in print: "…I hope to stay nearby; and never lessen interest in this fellowship, nor loosen the close bonds of friendship with my A.A. and Al-Anon friends. I'm forever grateful for this marvelous experience that began for me on March 3, 1947, at 415 Lexington Ave., New York City, in 3 small rooms of the Central Terminal Building. I have enjoyed and treasured every moment of it. I won't say `goodbye:' just want to extend my love and thanks to each one of you dear friends." Please join all of us at the General Service Office in extending our heartfelt condolences to Nell's family. Thank you, Amy Filiatreau Archivist AA World Services, Inc. filiatreaua@aa.org IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4101. . . . . . . . . . . . Nell Wing has passed From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/15/2007 12:04:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I'm sorry to report to my AAHL friends that AA'S Number One Archivist, Miss Nell Wing, passed last evening at 7 P. M. Her nephew, another Bill W., called me earlier today to let me know that this dear sweet lady has gone to meet her maker and will be joining the other Giants of AA. Nell had been in a nursing home the last few years and her health had been declining. There will be a service on Saturday February 24th. from 1 P.M. to 5 P.M. at the Moore's Funeral Home 1591 Alps Rd Wayne , NJ 07470. The Funeral home has a web site www.mooresinfo.com http://www.mooresinfo.com (look under Nell Wing) The telephone # for Moore's is 973 694 0072 At 5 P.M. representatives of the US Coast Guard (Nell served there till 1946 when she came to AA) will present the family with a flag. If it were not for this lady there may not be an AAHL site because she started and collected our history. On the wall of her apartment hangs a certificate from the Smithsonian to Nell as AA's First Archivist. When the 4th edition of the Big Book came out we went to visit Nell and presented her with a 4th edition. She posed for photographs and signed some books and never stopped smiling. I think the one thing I will never forget about her is her smile. It never ended. Her apartment was a joy to see. She had pictures of the cofounders. as well as an oil painting of Bill and Bob. She was with Bill and Lois till the end. Many of the members of this site remember her for the help and friendliness she showed to a lot of drunks. May she rest in peace, The world is a better place because of this woman, Shakey Mike Gwirtz IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4102. . . . . . . . . . . . AA History Pictures Presentation, Oak Ridge NJ, 3/1/07 From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/15/2007 3:20:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII “The Thursday Night Big Book Group” of Oak Ridge NJ presents An AA History Presentation with 190 Pictures of Early AA With Barefoot Bill from West Milford NJ Area 44 History and Archives Chairperson March 1, 2007 7:00PM – 8:30PM St. Gabriel’s Church 153 Milton Road Oak Ridge, NJ It is pictures from the first 30 years of AA. Pictures of the Washingtonians,Frank Buchman, Rowland Hazard, Cebra Graves, Ebby, Bill and Lois, Bill's parents and grandparents, Lois's parents, Dr. Bob's family, all the OH/VT places, Henrietta Seiberling, Bill D., Ernie G., Clarence S., Sr. Ignatia, all the N.Y. and N.J. places, Charlie Towns and Dr. Silkworth, Hank P., when the early literature was published, the Rockefeller dinner, gravesites, etc. It's very exciting, combining the stories with the images. Oak Ridge, New Jersey, is centrally located for lots of people on the East Coast, northwest of New York City, west of New Haven, Connecticut, and north of Philadelphia and Trenton. Less than an hour from a lot of places. DIRECTIONS TO ST. GABRIEL’S CHURCH: Coming from Route 23 North/South: turn onto Oak Ridge Road and follow for approx. 4 miles, going thru the light at Ridge Road/Lukoil gas station, make a right onto Legion Road/Milton Road (Milton Garage is on the left and St. Thomas Church is right in front of you), follow Milton Road approx. 1 mile and as you round the bend the church will be on your left, if you pass the firehouse on your left you have gone too far. Coming from Route 15 (Berkshire Valley Road): turn right onto Berkshire Valley Road south and follow approx. 7 miles and turn left onto Milton Road/Legion Road (by the Gulf Station and St. Thomas Church), follow 1/2 mile to the stop sign, bear to your left and the church will be on your left. Coming from Route 15 (to Weldon Road): follow Weldon Road to the end, bear right and follow Milton Road for approx 1 mile - firehouse will be on the right and the church will be on your left. *****If there is no parking left in the lot please park across the street, if you are not sure come inside and ask.***** For more information please call Rose M. 973-769-4337 (cell). IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4103. . . . . . . . . . . . Mel B. on Nell Wing''s life From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/15/2007 8:00:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII NELL WING By Mel B., Toledo, OH Many of us in AA feel that God brings the right people into our lives, at the right time and in the right way. This was certainly true of Nell Wing, who died on Wednesday, Febr. 14. She came to work at GSO in a temporary job in March 1947 and stayed until her retirement in 1982. Though a nonalcoholic, her devotion to AA became nearly absolute, and as the years passed she formed friendships with members throughout the world. She never married, and AA really became her extended family, with Bill and Lois Wilson as her surrogate parents. Nell was 29 when she reported to work at GSO (then called the Alcoholic Foundation). She had attended Keuka College in central New York state and served two years as a SPAR (a female Coast Guard sailor). She only wanted short-term employment until leaving for Mexico to study sculpture under the G.I. Bill. But as she recalled later, “From the beginning, I was caught by the A.A. Fellowship, particularly by the caring. It was not so much a general ‘caring for our fellowman,’ but a one-on-one caring, a love for one another without thought of any reward.” Mexico faded into the background, and she spent 35 years at GSO! Nell served as receptionist and did other clerical work at GSO before becoming Bill’s secretary in 1950. Highly competent as a secretary, she also became Bill’s staunch defender, giving him support and reassurance when members wrote angry letters or when he became plagued by self-doubt and depression. More than almost anybody, Nell knew how much Bill suffered when attacked by the very people who should have been grateful to him. After his death in 1971, she said she lost “my close friend and confidant, the big brother/father figure of my middle life.” She then became AA’s first archivist, with responsibility for organizing and filing all the documents and other records of our history. Though not trained in library science, she quickly learned the essentials of archiving and set up a logical system that works extremely well to this day. She also continued as Bill’s loyal advocate and carefully documented his specific contributions to AA’s origin, growth, and success. Nell and Lois became even closer after Bill’s passing. Nell often spent weekends with Lois at Stepping Stones and became concerned that the older woman insisted on living alone though becoming increasingly frail. Lois’s passing in 1988 was another great loss in her life. With a loving nephew as her guardian, Nell was a resident at a Sunrise Assisted Living home in New Jersey. ~~~~~~~~ Mel Barger melb@accesstoledo.com (melb at accesstoledo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4104. . . . . . . . . . . . Nell Wing Memorial Book From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/16/2007 12:35:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Doug B. has set up a memorial book on the internet for those who would like to post a few words expressing their love for Nell and gratitude for all that she did, on the AAHistory website: http://www.aahistory.com Close to the top of the opening page on the website, it says: - - - - - - - - Nell Wing, Bill W.'s secretary and AA's first archivist, passed from this life February 14, 2007. You are invited to sign her memorial book at click here, and leave your thoughts. - - - - - - - - Clicking there will take you to: http://www.aahistory.com/nellwing/sign.php What you write there will be made available for Nell's family and friends. - - - - - - - - To see what was written in some of the other Memorial Books, see for example: Dr. Paul O. http://www.aahistory.com/drpaulo.html Searcy W. http://www.aahistory.com/guestbook/addguest12.html http://www.aahistory.com/guestbook/guestbook12.html Nancy O. http://www.aahistory.com/guestbook/addguest17.html http://www.aahistory.com/guestbook/guestbook17.html - - - - - - - - For additional information about the Memorial Book and/or the AAHistory website, contact: "Doug B." dougb@aahistory.com (dougb at aahistory.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4105. . . . . . . . . . . . Obituary: Nell Wing From: ~ the >i . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/15/2007 11:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Nell Wing's obituary, as posted on the Moore's Funeral Home website: http://www.mooresinfo.com/ecom/sp/;cat=obituaries;obit=2949 ================ Janet E. (Now P.) Michigan "~ the >i< butterfly ~" (butterfly2.4.79 at comcast.net) emeritus archivist 1983-90 San Diego and Imperial Counties California A.A. ================ THE TEXT OF THE OBITUARY: Nellie Elizabeth Wing Home: Wayne, NJ Date of Death: February 14, 2007 Age: 89 Birthplace: Kendall, NY Birthdate: May 27, 1917 Service Date: Saturday, Feb 24, 2007 at 4:00 pm Visitation Date: Saturday, Feb 24, 2007 from 1-5PM Service Place: Moore's Home For Funerals, Wayne, NJ Final Disposition: Laurel Grove Crematory, Totowa, NJ Nellie Elizabeth Wing, age 89, died Wednesday, February 14, 2007 at Sunrise Assisted Living, Wayne. Ms. Wing was born May 27, 1917 in Kendall, NY the daughter of the late William Frank and the late Daisy (Shepard) Wing. She lived in Wayne and was formerly of New York, NY. Ms. Wing was a 1940 graduate of Keuka College in NY. From 1944 – 1946 she served in the US Coast Guard and earned the American Area Campaign Medal and The World War II Victory Campaign Medal. She was the Administrative assistant to Bill Wilson, the founder of A.A., in New York City from 1947 until 1982. After that, she traveled the world and became the 1st archivist for A.A. Ms. Wing attended the Lakeland Unitarian Universalist Fellowship, in Wayne. She was a Watercolor Artist and a Sculptor as well as the Author of the book: GRATEFUL TO HAVE BEEN THERE. She is survived by Nephews; William L. Wing of West Milford, David Wing of PA, Michael Bowler of Las Vegas, NV and a Niece, Maria Oplatka of CA. She was predeceased by her Brothers, William F. and Roswell B. Wing and her Sister, Mary Bowler. Visiting hours will be Saturday, Feb. 24, 2007 from 1-5PM at Moore's Home for Funerals, 1591 Alps Road, Wayne, NJ. A service of will be held at 4:00 pm and will be celebrated by the family. Private cremation and burial to follow. Memorials may be made to the Alzheimer's Association, 400 Morris Ave, Suite 251, Denville, NJ 07853 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4106. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The Division of AA in Mexico (and Finland) From: Mike B. . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/14/2007 3:08:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Mike B., James Blair, and Mitchell K. - - - - - - - - From: "Mike B." (mikeb384 at verizon.net) "San Diego had promised a transportation system that it did not deliver. As a result GSO had to pay for our membership to get back and forth to the venues. The check San Diego paid to GSO is only the same amount GSO paid for transportation." "When a group (GSO) brings about 50 million dollars to a city this is nothing more than standard business practice. Does a city get the Olympics without promising to provide certain construction for venues andtransportation?" The above is absolutely correct. I worked in the convention and trade show industry for 41 years before retiring, and underwriting of certain expenses, usually shuttle transportation is common practice among major CVBs. It is a formula-based usually on number of sleeping rooms picked up. Mike B. Happy to be retired - - - - - - - - From: James Blair (jblair at videotron.ca) Tom H. wrote The check San Diego paid to GSO is only the same amount GSO paid for transportation. That may well be but when City Council publicly votes to give money to an organization which lays claim to be "self-supporting" it creates confusion in the minds of the public and the membership and leaves our spirituality open to question. Is that worth 150K? Jim - - - - - - - - From: "Mitchell K." (mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com) My mistake. I didn't think AA was supposed to be like every other business like IBM, DOW Chemical or the Olympics. Since when are we supposed to be like any other business with so-called standard business practices like being cut-throat, discriminating against employees, canceling pensions and the like. Are we using standard business practices like Enron? Lest problems of MONEY, PROPERTY (Intellectual and other property), PRESTIGE and POWER divert us from our primary purpose. GSO doesn't bring $50 million dollars anywhere - AA MEMBERS BROUGHT THAT MONEY! Please do not forget that AA is comprised of members and not that business in NYC. ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS IS A FELLOWSHIP OF MEN AND WOMEN WHO MEET TO SHARE THEIR EXPERIENCE, STRENGTH AND HOPE WITH EACH OTHER. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4107. . . . . . . . . . . . Henry Parkhurst genealogy Info From: Mike Brewer . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/14/2007 9:58:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does anyone have any biographical information on Henry Parkhurst and/or his family/genealogy? I am trying to work out his genealogy and all his family connections, but the family was so large, I am having difficulty working it out without having more biographical data on him. Any info about him could be a big help. Birth/death dates, locations, parents' names, etc. Thanks, Mike IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4108. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill W. Letter? From: rollemupjohnson . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/14/2007 10:42:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I'm looking for the source of a Bill W. quote: "I want to remind myself and anyone who would listen that AA is not a personal success story. It is instead the story of our colossal human failures...now converted into the happiest kind of usefulness by that divine alchemy, the living grace of God" Thanks, JKell13@BellSouth.net (JKell13 at BellSouth.net) or RollEmUpJohnson@Yahoo.com (RollEmUpJohnson at Yahoo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4109. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Wynn Corum (Law) and Marty Mann From: edgarc@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/15/2007 12:39:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Wynn's daughter is very approachable and communicative via email. Contact me offlist and I'll send along her email address. Edgar C, Sarasota, Fla. edgarc@aol.com (edgarc at aol.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4110. . . . . . . . . . . . A.A. International in San Diego From: Bob McK. . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/17/2007 12:00:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The original thread was the division of AA in Mexico. This somehow got "kitchen-sinked" with division in Finland plus the German copyright case plus "cash incentives." These are separate issues. I have no experience with all the formers, just the latter. It is my understanding that the San Diego cash incentive was part of the package offered by their Convention and Visitors Bureau to AA to hold its International Convention in their city. The GSB did not solicit this. At the 1997 General Service Conference Larry N., Trustee- at-Large for the USA and a San Diego native, was asked if his area solicited this from the CVB. He saidthey did not. Some Conference members there thought that it is possible that some member(s) exhorted them to do so. It was not AA as such, however. The GSB policy was essentially that if the same package would be offered any other "like organization" then we may accept it. If we did not accept the perquisites offered by hotels and CVBs to hold our Conventions and Conferences --i.e., free ballroom space, comp rooms, etc.-- then they would be priced out of our ability to host them. These incentives are offered not as contributions to us, but rather as encouragement for us to hold them there and not across the street (or across the country). The Conference reviewed the GSB policy with hours of debate and eventually upheld it strongly. I seem to recall the vote was 110-12 in favor. And even at that some felt that some of the dissenters came from parts of the country that competed with San Diego for the Int'l Convention and lost. They felt they had "sour grapes." The issue was revived in '99 and we somewhat dismissed it, feeling it was sufficiently covered the previous year. We were wrong. And so the issue popped up again in 2000. It had yet longer debate ending ultimately in another decisive vote. I am told it was many-to-6. I am also told that the dissenters thanked the Conference for letting them have their say. I am writing this with the intent of adding my recollection of these historic events, not as an effort to again stir up this controversy. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4111. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Henry Parkhurst genealogy Info From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/17/2007 1:21:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Mike, The only living expert on Hank I know is Merton M. who is a member of this group: mertonmm3@yahoo.com (mertonmm3 at yahoo.com) --- Mike Brewer wrote: > Does anyone have any biographical information > on Henry Parkhurst and/or his family/genealogy? > > I am trying to work out his genealogy and all > his family connections, but the family was so > large, I am having difficulty working it out > without having more biographical data on him. > > Any info about him could be a big help. > > Birth/death dates, locations, parents' names, > etc. > > Thanks, Mike > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4112. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W. Letter? From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/16/2007 8:26:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Not a literal quote but very similar is a letter Bill wrote in 1959 and quoted on p. 35 of A.A. Way of Life/As Bill Sees It A.A. is no success story in the ordinary sense of the word. It is a story of suffering transmuted, under grace, into spiritual progress. I would note that a number of quotes in AAWL/ABSI are not true to the originals. Tommy H in Baton Rouge - - - - - - - - At 21:42 2/14/2007 , rollemupjohnson wrote: >I'm looking for the source of a Bill W. quote: > >"I want to remind myself and anyone who would >listen that AA is not a personal success story. >It is instead the story of our colossal human >failures...now converted into the happiest kind >of usefulness by that divine alchemy, the living >grace of God" IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4113. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill W. Letter? From: Charles Knapp . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/18/2007 4:25:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Charles Knapp and Gary Rohde: the quote is similar to something said on a recording of Bill W. speaking in 1947. - - - From: "Charles Knapp" (cdknapp at pacbell.net) Hello I believe the quote you gave is from an LP recoded Bill made in April or May 1947. The original version of the quote is as follows: "Perhaps this is not the place to talk at length of my own recovery, of our A.A. program in detail, or of our astounding growth. This room is filled with fellow alcoholics who know and practice the A.A. way of life as well as I. The accomplishments of Alcoholics Anonymous are headlined in the press of the world. So I shall be content if I can remind myself, and any who would hear that Alcoholics Anonymous is not, after all, a personal success story. It is instead, the story of our colossal human failures now converted into the happiest kind of usefulness by that divine alchemy - the living grace of God." That was from a talk Bill gave April 9, 1947 in Los Angeles. When Bill got back to New York he revised his talk a little and cut a record that the Alcoholic Foundation sold. I found information in an early exchange bulletin that said the records would go on sale in June 1947. If you went to the International Convention in Toronto, this quote was part of the GSO Archives display. Encore Tapes sells a taped version of the recording, but so far have been unable to find a complete copy of his original talk. Hope that helps Charles for California - - - - - - - - From: (feelgoodcp at yahoo.com) I am not sure where it is written, but an old timer's son who had passed, brought me a set of orange red colored records with the rockhill label. I understand these were produced in the early days for new groups to play because they had no members with sobriety. On those records I heard the quote above. Hope that helps Gary Rohde Ft Myers Florida - - - - - - - - Original message #4108 from: (rollemupjohnson at yahoo.com) Asked for the source of this Bill W. quote: "I want to remind myself and anyone who would listen that AA is not a personal success story. It is instead the story of our colossal human failures...now converted into the happiest kind of usefulness by that divine alchemy, the living grace of God" Thanks, JKell13@BellSouth.net (JKell13 at BellSouth.net) or RollEmUpJohnson@Yahoo.com (RollEmUpJohnson at Yahoo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4114. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The Division of AA in Mexico (and Germany) From: Gary Becktell . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/19/2007 10:03:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Just a note to correct a few of the facts here, Arthur. I know how concerned you are with accuracy. There was concern about the exorbitant cost of the German Big Book, the equivalent of about $45 USD. All of the books that "they" published, (the publishing venture was actually the work of an AA Group, not just the one man that was sued), were given away, not one was sold. They were paid for by contributions of Groups and individuals. Later in your mail, you talk about the price of a Spanish book from AAWS. Because of the lawsuit in Germany, which relied upon the rules of the 'Bern Convention', it is now illegal to transport Big Books across a border into a country that holds a license to publish from AAWS. In other words, it doesn't matter to Groups in Mexico what the price of an AAWS Big Book is because they cannot legally import them. The price from the Mexican GSO is still exorbitant. G ----- Original Message ----- From: Arthur Sheehan To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 10:28 PM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: The Division of AA in Mexico (and Finland) Hi Lee History is supposed to propagate facts not beliefs. If you would care to review "the other side" of the German lawsuit story, please refer to AAHL messages 2860, 2873 and 2907. Message 2860 contains a General Service Board report to the 2004 General Service Conference. It details how from 1993 (and for over a decade) they tried to get the German AA member to stop violating German copyright law (he was actually distributing Big Books in several countries in several languages). Message 2873 responds to a criticism posted in AAHL that echoed the same litany of criticisms that have been directed at the GSB, AAWS and GSO. Message 2907 is a detailed analysis of the German Big Book translation versus the English counterpart. The most stunning discovery was how the German AA member, who is portrayed as some sort of martyr (no pun intended on his name) had no factual basis for his claims that the German Big Book translation removed reference to "God" and "spirituality" from text. His whole case rested on torturous semantic hair-splitting of the use of the German words "geistig" and "seelisch" in the translation instead of his preferred German word "spirtuelle." There is a point of interest regarding the past $30 Big Book price in Mexico (which today's Spanish language version costs $6 from AAWS). The $3.50 price of the 1939 first edition Big Book would be the equivalent of around $50 in 2006 dollars. It was a very expensive book. An English language hard cover 4th edition Big Book today costs $6 from AAWS. That's about 1/8 of what it cost 1i 1939 (disregarding collector's value of course). It would be nice to give the GSB, AAWS and GSO some credit where credit is due. Cheers Arthur (PS haven't posted here in a while - been very, very busy) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4115. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Re: The Division of AA in Mexico (and Germany) From: Arthur Sheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/20/2007 10:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Gary I do try to be attentive to accuracy and thorough research. When I post something it will be on the basis of independent confirmation by written source references (at least one - preferably more than one). That's why the Trustees reports to the 2004 Conference were cited in my last posting. Consequently, I think your "corrections" could do with a bit of correcting in turn. The German member who was sued may have had accomplices and allies (such as the Big Book Study Group) but he was the central player in the whole sorry episode. He is described in the Trustees' reports as the operator of a mail order book business in Germany who published and distributed several Conference- approved books and pamphlets, first in Germany and subsequently, in other countries. In 1993, he communicated with the GSOs in Germany and Canada/US that he intended to publish his German translation of "Alcoholics Anonymous." It was not framed as a matter of cost - it was framed as a matter of his preference for words used in the translation (which later proved baseless). From 1993 on he was repeatedly advised that his actions would/did constitute violations of legal licensing agreements made by AAWS who licenses one exclusive licensee per country. From 1994-1996, the German member traveled to Mexico several times, where he met with a small, but vocal group of AA members who were challenging licenses to publish approved translations of AA literature granted to the General Service Board of AA in Mexico (Central Mexicana). In November 1996, he traveled to New York City and asked to meet with the General Manager of the GSO. The GM and a Staff member met with him (and two friends of his from Germany). His expressed concerns were reported as having to do with the translation, not the cost, of the Big Book. In 1997 he illegally distributed books to Sweden, Finland and Israel. The Trustees' report states that by October 1997 he expanded distribution of "free" Big Books to Russia. Catalogs describing his mail order book business, and offering "AA literature" for sale, began appearing in mail directed to local Russian AA groups. Perhaps the acceptance of so-called "7th Traditions contributions" still means that the books were given away free (wink, wink, nudge, nudge) but I'll take that with a bit of skepticism. In any event, I'm not aware of any financial report ever posted or revealed by the German member to determine if the venture was purely altruistic. In May 1999, the German Court of Common Pleas ruled in favor of AA. The following month the German member appealed the ruling and extended the court process for an additional four years. In October 2003, the Court of Appeals in Frankfurt decided in favor of AA and ruled that the German member cease producing/distri- buting Conference-approved literature in any language. The Court affirmed the validity of copyrights held in trust by AAWS and decreed that the member reimburse AA for legal expenses, including attorney fees. Early in 2004, AA offered him an opportunity to forgo reimbursement of legal costs and fees provided he not publish or distribute Conference-approved literature in any language or country, now or in the future, and accept all other stipulations in the Court's order. He did not respond and AA subsequently asked that the Court's final order be fulfilled. I believe it cost the member $27,000 (based on a Delegate's Conference report). Now about the price of a Big Book (El Libro Grande) in Mexico. I went to the main AA web site in Mexico to check the cost. Perhaps I'm interpreting things wrong, but it seems that AA Mexico sells the Spanish translation of the Big Book for substantially less than what it costs in the US. So I don't understand what evidence produces the assertion that "The price from the Mexican GSO is still Exorbitant" The AA Mexico web site quotes a price of $33mn and $17mn for a hard cover and abridged version respectively ("mn" = New Mexico Peso - also "mxn"). I then went to a currency conversion web site and calculated $33 and $17mn as $3.00 and $1.55 in US dollars. Gary, I've tried to carefully lay out the verifiable sources of all the information posted. I'd be curious to know what your sources are. I certainly will accept "corrections" in good faith - provided of course that they are correct facts and not just anecdotal contradictions. Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: Gary Becktell Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 9:03 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: The Division of AA in Mexico (and Germany) Just a note to correct a few of the facts here, Arthur. I know how concerned you are with accuracy. There was concern about the exorbitant cost of the German Big Book, the equivalent of about $45 USD. All of the books that "they" published, (the publishing venture was actually the work of an AA Group, not just the one man that was sued), were given away, not one was sold. They were paid for by contributions of Groups and individuals. Later in your mail, you talk about the price of a Spanish book from AAWS. Because of the lawsuit in Germany, which relied upon the rules of the 'Bern Convention', it is now illegal to transport Big Books across a border into a country that holds a license to publish from AAWS. In other words, it doesn't matter to Groups in Mexico what the price of an AAWS Big Book is because they cannot legally import them. The price from the Mexican GSO is still exorbitant. G IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4116. . . . . . . . . . . . Finding quotes in AA From: Clyde G. . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/21/2007 4:15:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From the moderator: When you're trying to find a particular quote in the Big Book, there are two concordances to it where you can look up one of the words in the quotation. Neither concordance is perfect, but if you use both of them, you will probably have found all of the instances of that particular word in the Big Book: http://www.anonpress.org/bbindex/ http://www.royy.com/concord.html A searchable text of the first part of the Big Book is also available online: http://anonpress.org/bb/ You can look up phrases on this site, in addition to individual words. The phrase asked for below ("jails, institutions and death") is not found in the first part of the Big Book, according to this reference source. Or at least it couldn't find it. Looking up "jail" however gives us p. 107, which is probably the original source of the idea in that phrase. Looking up "institution" gives us two more places where that part of the phrase is discussed: pp. 114, 110 Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana) - - - - - - - - A friend in the program asked me where in the BB was the statement, "jails, institutions and death" found that I refered to. I had thought I had read it in the BB but dang if I can find it. So I decided to ask the group to either post it or send it to my address: cloydg449@sbcglobal.net (cloydg449 at sbcglobal.net) Thanks, Clyde G. DOS 01/03/95 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4117. . . . . . . . . . . . Price of a Big Book in German From: do_der_weg . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/21/2007 5:53:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi, Yesterday I bought a German Big Book and it costs currently 15 Euros which would be about 20$ US. Greetings, Petra IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4118. . . . . . . . . . . . Price of a Big Book in the UK From: David Jones . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/22/2007 1:04:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In the UK they cost £8.20 GBR, which is approx $16 in US dollars. Dave - - - - Hi, Yesterday I bought a German Big Book and it costs currently 15 Euros which would be about 20$ US. Greetings, Petra IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4119. . . . . . . . . . . . In the AA Big Book: "jails, institutions, or death" From: David Jones . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/22/2007 12:58:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Possible source for the phrase ‘jails, institutions, or death’ could be: “and unless locked up may die or go permanently insane.” pg 24 “The persistence of this illusion is astonishing. Many pursue it to the gates of insanity or death.” pg 30 “innumerable trips to police courts, sanitariums, hospitals, jails and asylums.” pg 97 The most likely I would think is: “Most of us have entered the final stage with its commitment to health resorts, sanitariums, hospitals, and jails. Sometimes there were screaming delirium and insanity. Death was often near.” pg 107 God bless Dave - - - - - - - - A friend in the program asked me where in the BB was the statement, "jails, institutions and death" found that I refered to. I had thought I had read it in the BB but dang if I can find it. So I decided to ask the group to either post it or send it to my address: cloydg449@sbcglobal.net (cloydg449 at sbcglobal.net) Thanks, Clyde G. DOS 01/03/95 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4120. . . . . . . . . . . . Not AA but NA: "jails, institutions, and death" From: Jon Markle . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/22/2007 8:05:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Jon M. + Floyd J. - - - - Jon Markle (serenitylodge at bellsouth.net) I believe the phrase "jails, institutions and death" comes from NA. For example, one quote, "If you are an addict, you must first admit that you have a problem with drugs before any progress can be made toward recovery. These questions, when honestly approached, may help to show you how using drugs has made your life unmanageable. Addiction is a disease which, without recovery, ends in jails, institutions, and death." From the pamphlet, "Am I an Addict?" Revised. This is NA Fellowship-approved literature. Copyright © 1983, 1988 by Narcotics Anonymous World Services, Inc. All rights reserved. I believe it's in the Basic Text of NA, however I don't have my copy handy to look it up to be sure. Jon (Raleigh) 9/9/82 - - - - From: Azor521@aol.com (Azor521 at aol.com) That statement is made in the Narcotics Anonymous Book, pg. 3, 5th edition. Also in NA literature as it is in the statement, "What is an Addict." Hope that helps. Floyd J...... Southern California - - - - On Feb 21, 2007, at 4:15 PM, Clyde G. wrote: > A friend in the program asked me where in the > BB was the statement, "jails, institutions > and death" found that I refered to. I had > thought I had read it in the BB but dang if > I can find it. So I decided to ask the group > to either post it or send it to my address: > > cloydg449@sbcglobal.net > (cloydg449 at sbcglobal.net) > > Thanks, Clyde G. DOS 01/03/95 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4121. . . . . . . . . . . . Finding quotes in Big Book and 12 and 12 From: tomper87 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/22/2007 11:00:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From tomper99 + Tommy H. (Baton Rouge) - - - - From: "tomper87" (tomper99 at yahoo.com) Another very good concordance for BB and 12x12: http://www.164andmore.com/index.php Also available in paperback which I have found to be very useful when away from the computer. - - - - From: Tom Hickcox (cometkazie1 at cox.net) I have yet to find a concordance for A.A. literature that I like unequivocally. The ones I like best and get the results from most readily include the sentence or part of the sentence in which the word is used. I find this a whole lot more convenient than a list of words and the pages on which they are found. I own two concordances that list sentences or partial sentences, the Purple Salamander Press volume that came out in the '90s and one for which I got a heads up recently "164 and More" which includes the Big Book and the 12x12. There may be other concordances that include sentences but I am unaware of them. [This has everything to do with me. I don't pretend to know all about A.A. Concordances.] I suspect part of Clyde's problem is the quote he is searching for may be in a story and stories for the most part aren't included in concordances. My PDA has the Big Book on it, I believe I bought it from Anonymous Press, and it has several very nice features which come in handy as I can unobtrusively use the PDA during a meeting. For me a disadvantage of electronic concordances is that one must put the search info in exactly including punctuation. The PDA program is nice as it lists page and paragraph numbers. I have not yet reached the point where I am able to pull open my Big Book and go directly to the word or phrase I'm looking for so concordances serve a useful function for me. Information on "164 and More" is in message #4055 in the list archives online. Tommy H in Baton Rouge IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4122. . . . . . . . . . . . Marty Mann and the unnamed woman from Bronxville From: kattacruzin . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/25/2007 4:21:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello, I'm doing some research on Marty Mann and other women of her time. I've read the Brown and Brown autobiography of her. The Brown and Brown book talks about Marty Mann having a relapse during some time between 1959-64. Her partner Priscilla's whereabouts during this time are unknown. An unnamed woman from Bronxville found Mann alone and relapsed in her NYC apartment. According to Brown and Brown, this apparently whisked Mann away to get help from the relapse. I'm left wondering if anyone knows who the unnamed woman from Bronxville is? And did she stay in touch with Mann after she helped her get back on the right track? Also, does anyone know what might have precipitated Mann's slip? Perhaps her cancer battles? But also, it seems that perhaps she and Priscilla were having a hard time in their relationship at that point--was that in any way related to the slip (or vice-versa)? Many thanks for any insights you might have. Kate IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4123. . . . . . . . . . . . 12 and 12 search engine From: smithdewan . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/23/2007 5:04:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Is there a search for a word or phrase engine that covers the 12and12 ? - - - - From the moderator: Another very good concordance for the Big Book and also for the TWELVE STEPS and TWELVE TRADITIONS: http://www.164andmore.com/index.php - - - - See Message #4121 from: "tomper87" (tomper99 at yahoo.com) "tomper87" said: "Also available in paperback which I have found to be very useful when away from the computer." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4124. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Wynn Corum (Law) and Marty Mann From: kattacruzin . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/25/2007 4:25:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Wynn Corum was an author of the big book story "Freedom from Bondage." I believe her sobriety date was late 1940's. She lived in L.A. and was the step-mother of California writer Carolyn See. - - - - From the moderator: See http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/Authors.htm "Freedom From Bondage" 2nd edition #553, 3rd edition #544, 4th edition #544 Wynn Corum Laws (California) Look for the story and then click on the author's name to read the little biography of Wynn which Nancy Olson wrote. Also see Message #4099: Wynn Corum Law's stepdaughter Carolyn See wrote a book Dreaming: Hard Luck and Good Times in America, which more or less tells Wynn's story. I read it a few years ago and don't remember it mentioning Marty Mann or their knowing each other personally. Fiona - - - - In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Sally Brown" rev.sally@worldnet.att.net (rev.sally at worldnet.att.net) wrote: > > Dave and I didn't come across Wynn Corum's name > when we were researching the Marty Mann bio, but > I would guess that both women did know each other. > > I would love to know about Wynn. > > City? Approximate sobriety date and age? > Anything of her story? And what is Ann's > particular interest? Etc? > > Thanks, and shalom - Sally > > Rev Sally Brown, coauthor with David R Brown: > "A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann: The First Lady > of Alcoholics Anonymous" IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4125. . . . . . . . . . . . Price of a Big Book in various countries From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/25/2007 5:20:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII For the sake of accuracy It would be beneficial to hear from people from actual countries who buy big books in their country to let this group know exactly how much a big book costs there. We have been told by a group member that he did the research and utilized more than one source to get the actual price of books. Unfortunately, persons from the actual countries who shelled out money for the books report a different price than what was reported. If at all possible, the equivalent in US Dollars would be helpful as well as the local currency. I personally trust individual AA members' reporting of the price they pay rather than the official AAWS approved office in that country reporting on a price. There appears to be a discrepancy in actual vs reported prices. > In the UK they cost £8.20 GBR, which is approx > $16 in US dollars. > > Dave > > - - - - > > Hi, > > Yesterday I bought a German Big Book and it > costs currently 15 Euros which would be about > 20$ US. > > Greetings, Petra > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4126. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Marty Mann and the unnamed woman from Bronxville From: Sally Brown . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/25/2007 7:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In answer to Kate's questions about Marty Mann's late relapse, I wish Dave and I had the answers! The original information came from my first AA sponsor, who had gotten sober in Bronxville and lived there, very active in AA, for 10 more years. She was the one whom the unnamed woman called for advice about what to do with Marty. Unfortunately, so much time had passed, and as the "rescuer" had long since moved away, my sponsor could no longer recall her name. While Dave and I were still doing our research and making inquiries elsewhere, my sponsor happened to visit Bronxville, and asked the oldtimers still there if they remembered the name. They recalled the event, but again, too many years had intervened. All anyone vaguely remembered was that the young woman had moved to Florida, they thought, not long after. I've always hoped that that woman, or someone in Florida who knew her, might read our biography of Marty Mann, and contact us. At first I was a little disdainful that people wouldn't remember the name of the young woman, even though nearly 40 years had transpired. How could anyone forget! Now, with nearly 30 years of sobriety myself, I understand. I'm darned if I can recall the names of people from 10 years ago, who were in our local AA only a year, then moved far away with no further contact. Sometimes I remember the person, and sometimes parts of their stories. But names? As we wrote, we could only speculate on the possible contributing factors to Marty's relapse. If somebody actually knows any more of this part of the story, I hope he or she will contact us. Finally, our unexpected uncovering of Marty's relapse was certainly a shock to a number of persons, especially if they had known her well and had no idea about it. Some absolutely refused to believe it, others were totally surprised yet not surprised. We might not have included the account if we hadn't been able to get two strong additional, independent corroborations. And good luck, Kate, on your research! Maybe you'll be the one to solve the mystery of the "unnamed woman." Shalom - Sally Rev Sally Brown coauthor with David R. Brown: A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann: The First Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous Board Certified Clinical Chaplain United Church of Christ www.sallyanddavidbrown.com 1470 Sand Hill Road, 309 Palo Alto, CA 94304 Phone/Fax: 650 325 5258 Email: rev.sally@att.net (rev.sally at att.net) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4127. . . . . . . . . . . . Re:Price of a Big Book in various countries From: Mark Everett . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/26/2007 9:03:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I agree with Mitchell's request for more information, and I would add that the reporter include the source. For instance, I just did some local searches here in the US and I found the following prices. This could go on and on, but, without the seller being identified, it is a bit difficult to compare pricing. The prices I found for our Big Book (new, not used) this morning on the web and via current published price lists and they are: A.A. (both GSO and my local Intergroup Office) Soft Cover $5.60 Hard Cover $6.00 Hazelden Soft Cover $10.00 Hard Cover $10.75 Amazon Soft Cover $10.17 Hard Cover $10.85 Border's Soft Cover $13.95 Barns and Noble Soft Cover $14.95 Hard Cover $12.76 I guess the source of my purchase matters, I have no comment as to the differences, I just want to point out that there are differences, and without noting my source, my information is less than complete. Mark IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4128. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Price of a Big Book in various countries From: Fiona Dodd . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/26/2007 1:19:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Ireland, India, Australia, Greece, Canada IRELAND From: "Fiona Dodd" (fionadodd at eircom.net) The cost of a Big Book in Ireland is (=6.23 which is roughly $8.20. Regards Fiona - - - - From: gerry donaghy (frankaaaa2006 at yahoo.co.uk) Although it is 6.20 euros for a big book in Ireland, some groups charge 8 euros for it. My opinion and the opinion of many others is that it should be free as GSO have lots of funds available, the money they get from groups. - - - - INDIA From: "Aloke Dutt" (alokedutt at hotmail.com) The price of soft cover English Big Book in India is Rupees 110.00 = 2.4 US Dollars - - - - AUSTRALIA From: "Ollie Olorenshaw" (ollie_olorenshaw at yahoo.com.au) A Big Book in Australia costs $17.60 which is just under $US 14.00. - - - - GREECE From: "Irene Sekros" (irene.sekros at gmail.com) Hello, irene here, an alcoholic from Athens, Greece. Here are the prices we ask for the BB: Euro 10.00 - Hard Cover, English version (US $13.25) Euro 9.00 - Soft Cover, English version (US $11.92) Euro 5.50 - Pocket Size, English version (US $7.28) Euro 10.00 - Soft Cover, Greek version (US $$13.25) Warm regards and g24h, irene - - - - CANADA: From: "silverg1" (silverg1 at telus.net) In Calgary, Alberta, Canada we pay C$11.00 (US$9.50) for hard cover 4th edition Big Book from Central Office. Gerry S. - - - - SOME OTHER NOTES From: "Dennis M." (bxdennis at verizon.net) It would also be important to know if the purchase was from a primary GSO source or some other outlet such as an Intergroup, Central Office or another Hazelden-type distributor. Here in the U.S. additional markups are often added to the GSO sales price by secondary distributors. Dennis M. - - - - From: Arkie Koehl (arkie at arkoehl.com) I believe the book came out in 1939 at $3.50. That equaled $50.69 by 2006.* In any case, that makes today's editions look rather reasonable, in any country and any currency. Arkie *I used this consumer price index calculator, FWIW IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4129. . . . . . . . . . . . Price of a Big Book in various countries From: Irene Sekros . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/26/2007 2:08:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello, irene here, an alcoholic from Athens, Greece. Here are the prices we ask for the BB: Euro 10.00 - Hard Cover, English version Euro 9.00 - Soft Cover, English version Euro 5.50 - Pocket Size, English version Euro 10.00 - Soft Cover, Greek version. Warm regards and g24h, irene **************************************************** On 2/26/07, Mitchell K. wrote: > > For the sake of accuracy It would be beneficial to > hear from people from actual countries who buy big > books in their country to let this group know exactly > how much a big book costs there... > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4130. . . . . . . . . . . . AA history in Great Britain From: desbrittuk . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/26/2007 8:48:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I've been knocking around AA in England since 1976. I've seen so many good people come and go and so many "characters" who have livened up our meetings over the years. I'm wondering if there is an archive similar to what you good folks in America have. Are there any oldtimers in England reading this who might know something of our history? Des B in Kilburn, London.... (First meeting in the Bull Ring in Birmingham, 1976 and then First London 1978, York Street clubhouse, Denver,1979-82 and back to London again.) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4131. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The Division of AA in Mexico (and Germany) From: Gary Becktell . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/25/2007 5:33:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I don't know where to begin, Arthur. Calling the members of the man's Home Group 'accomplices' seems a bit inflammatory. They are fellow members, joined in a 12th Step activity. The mail order business was not engaged in the Big Book give aways. You can refer to the findings from the German Court in dismissing the first complaint, the criminal charge. The 'small but vocal group' you refer to in Mexico was an entire service structure with over 2,000 groups, with Districts, Areas, Delegates and a Conference. The permission (in Article Two) is given for the Conference (not AAWS) to grant the right to publish, and only where a General Service Structure exists. Central Mexicana was not a service structure but just a GSO. From Article Two: "In countries where a General Service Structure exists, the United States/Canada Conference will delegate sole right to publish our Conference-approved Literature to the General Service Board of that structure." Your 'wink, wink, nudge, nudge' comment concerning profit is definitely not researched. Before the civil case there was a criminal case where the German Court found that there was indeed no profiting going on. http://gsowatch.aamo.info/ger/g8.gif In fact, the books have a disclaimer on them that states that they are free and should not be bought or sold. Further, the financial report you are not aware of was given to the German court, which is part of the reason they dismissed the criminal charges. There is no evidence what-so-ever that there was anything but an altruistic motive in this case. As is a tradition in this country, guilt must be proved, not innocence. You mentioned that the German member did not respond to the offer to forego reimbursement, etc. What you didn't mention was that there were many stipulations for that to take effect, not just the one you mentioned. One of the other stipulations was to reveal the names of all members of the AABBSG (his Home Group), breaking the anonymity of all at a public level. Of course he refused, and started paying. I would like to remind everyone that all the Big Books that were printed in Germany and Mexico were from the First or Second Editions, which are both in the Public Domain. I suspect that is enough for now. I would like to suggest that anyone even slightly concerned about these issues read Concept XII, Warranty 5. In my Service Manual, it suggests that we not sue anyone, at any time, for any reason. Further, it says, "Some deviators have suffered rather severe personal criticism from individual AA members, and this is to be deplored." This was written by Bill W. Every piece of evidence points that this man and his group were carrying the AA message as best they could. While one may disagree with their methods, the hateful attacks seem inappropriate. Please reread Warranty 5. G ----- Original Message ----- From: Arthur Sheehan Subject: Re: The Division of AA in Mexico (and Germany) Hi Gary I do try to be attentive to accuracy and thorough research. When I post something it will be on the basis of independent confirmation by written source references (at least one - preferably more than one). That's why the Trustees reports to the 2004 Conference were cited in my last posting. Consequently, I think your "corrections" could do with a bit of correcting in turn. The German member who was sued may have had accomplices and allies (such as the Big Book Study Group) but he was the central player in the whole sorry episode. He is described in the Trustees' reports as the operator of a mail order book business in Germany who published and distributed several Conference- approved books and pamphlets, first in Germany and subsequently, in other countries. In 1993, he communicated with the GSOs in Germany and Canada/US that he intended to publish his German translation of "Alcoholics Anonymous." It was not framed as a matter of cost - it was framed as a matter of his preference for words used in the translation (which later proved baseless). From 1993 on he was repeatedly advised that his actions would/did constitute violations of legal licensing agreements made by AAWS who licenses one exclusive licensee per country. From 1994-1996, the German member traveled to Mexico several times, where he met with a small, but vocal group of AA members who were challenging licenses to publish approved translations of AA literature granted to the General Service Board of AA in Mexico (Central Mexicana). In November 1996, he traveled to New York City and asked to meet with the General Manager of the GSO. The GM and a Staff member met with him (and two friends of his from Germany). His expressed concerns were reported as having to do with the translation, not the cost, of the Big Book. In 1997 he illegally distributed books to Sweden, Finland and Israel. The Trustees' report states that by October 1997 he expanded distribution of "free" Big Books to Russia. Catalogs describing his mail order book business, and offering "AA literature" for sale, began appearing in mail directed to local Russian AA groups. Perhaps the acceptance of so-called "7th Traditions contributions" still means that the books were given away free (wink, wink, nudge, nudge) but I'll take that with a bit of skepticism. In any event, I'm not aware of any financial report ever posted or revealed by the German member to determine if the venture was purely altruistic. In May 1999, the German Court of Common Pleas ruled in favor of AA. The following month the German member appealed the ruling and extended the court process for an additional four years. In October 2003, the Court of Appeals in Frankfurt decided in favor of AA and ruled that the German member cease producing/distri- buting Conference-approved literature in any language. The Court affirmed the validity of copyrights held in trust by AAWS and decreed that the member reimburse AA for legal expenses, including attorney fees. Early in 2004, AA offered him an opportunity to forgo reimbursement of legal costs and fees provided he not publish or distribute Conference-approved literature in any language or country, now or in the future, and accept all other stipulations in the Court's order. He did not respond and AA subsequently asked that the Court's final order be fulfilled. I believe it cost the member $27,000 (based on a Delegate's Conference report). Now about the price of a Big Book (El Libro Grande) in Mexico. I went to the main AA web site in Mexico to check the cost. Perhaps I'm interpreting things wrong, but it seems that AA Mexico sells the Spanish translation of the Big Book for substantially less than what it costs in the US. So I don't understand what evidence produces the assertion that "The price from the Mexican GSO is still Exorbitant" The AA Mexico web site quotes a price of $33mn and $17mn for a hard cover and abridged version respectively ("mn" = New Mexico Peso - also "mxn"). I then went to a currency conversion web site and calculated $33 and $17mn as $3.00 and $1.55 in US dollars. Gary, I've tried to carefully lay out the verifiable sources of all the information posted. I'd be curious to know what your sources are. I certainly will accept "corrections" in good faith - provided of course that they are correct facts and not just anecdotal contradictions. Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: Gary Becktell Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 9:03 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: The Division of AA in Mexico (and Germany) Just a note to correct a few of the facts here, Arthur. I know how concerned you are with accuracy. There was concern about the exorbitant cost of the German Big Book, the equivalent of about $45 USD. All of the books that "they" published, (the publishing venture was actually the work of an AA Group, not just the one man that was sued), were given away, not one was sold. They were paid for by contributions of Groups and individuals. Later in your mail, you talk about the price of a Spanish book from AAWS. Because of the lawsuit in Germany, which relied upon the rules of the 'Bern Convention', it is now illegal to transport Big Books across a border into a country that holds a license to publish from AAWS. In other words, it doesn't matter to Groups in Mexico what the price of an AAWS Big Book is because they cannot legally import them. The price from the Mexican GSO is still exorbitant. G IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4132. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The Division of AA in Mexico (and Germany) From: Lee Nickerson . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/23/2007 7:51:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I thought back then that the outrage was not over this member's or Group's actions, but the public lawsuit instigated by AA, which is expressly verboten by our Traditions, Concepts, and Co-Founder. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4133. . . . . . . . . . . . Not AA but NA: "jails, institutions, or death" From: pmds@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/26/2007 2:55:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "Jails, institutions or death" is part of the preamble in Narcotics Anonymous meetings. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4134. . . . . . . . . . . . Connor F. From: gerry d . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/26/2007 7:30:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I was looking for a photo of Connor F. and Bill W.,which I think was taken around the time Connor F. came to Ireland on a holiday in 1946, he was persuaded by his wife to start an AA group in Ireland, when he went to St. Pat's Hospital to find alcoholics he was told there were no alkies in that part of Ireland lol... But he suceeded in gettin it going and today we have hundreds of groups here. ....btw the 50th All Ireland Convention is coming up in April, for full details visit our website >>>>http://www.tallaghtbigbook.com<<<< If anyone has a pic or any pics from around that time I would be very gratefull for some >>>my em is>>>>frankaaaa2006@yahoo.co.uk (frankaaaa2006 at yahoo.co.uk) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4135. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Finding quotes in Big Book From: ~ the >i . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/25/2007 8:22:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII JFYI, there are a host of resources to search the big book on-line. None of which I have encountered that are "official" ... nevertheless, viable adjuncts to finding quotes when needed. (The concordance for the 12x12 mentioned earlier, is the only one I've seen.) For the "big book" ... Here is one: http://www.whytehouse.com/big_book_search/ __________________________________ an additional link of study: http://www.sober.org/ an audio version: http://www.aarootsrevival.com/Big-Book-Study.htm and a format for the fourth that is very organized and true to the book (a great print out!): http://www.recovery.org/aa/PDF/step4.pdf All these links I highly recommend to serious study. Janet P. emeritus archivist IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4136. . . . . . . . . . . . Price of a Big Book in Denmark From: Henrik Rue . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/27/2007 4:03:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi all, The price in Denmark is 190 Danish Kroner ~ $33 for a hardcover copy in Danish and 120 Danish kroner ~ $21 in English And 165 Danish kroner ~ $28 for a soft cover copy in Danish and 100 Danish kroner ~ $17 in English In love and service Henrik Rue E-mail : henrik.rue@edb.dk (henrik.rue at edb.dk) Homepage: http://www.12stepping.dk IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4137. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Not AA but NA: "jails, institutions, and death" From: John Lee . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/25/2007 5:24:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dozens of times I've heard people at AA meetings say, "It's in the Big Book" , and then go on to quote from the NA Basic Text. "More will be revealed" is commonly heard, and the ubiquitious, "people, places and things." The latter is a segment of the "Second Interesting Proposal", found after the NA Steps. John Lee Pittsburgh IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4138. . . . . . . . . . . . Significant March Dates in A.A. History From: chesbayman56 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/28/2007 8:03:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII March 1936 - AA had 10 members staying sober. At end of 1936 A.A. had 15 members. March-May 1938 - Bill begins writing the book Alcoholics Anonymous. Works Publishing Inc established to support writing and printing of the book. March 1940 - Mort J. came to LA from Denver; started custom of reading Chapter 5 Big Book at Cecil group. March 1941 - Second printing of Big Book. March 1941 - 1st Prison AA Group formed at San Quentin. March 1946 - The March of Time film is produced by NY AA office. March 1949 - Dr. Bob considers idea of AA conference premature. March 1951 - American Weekly publishes memorial article for Dr. Bob. March 1, 1939 - Readers Digest fails to write article on AA. March 1, 1941 - Jack Alexander's Saturday Evening Post article published and membership jumped from 2,000 to 8,000 by years end. March 3 1947 - Nell Wing started work at Alcoholic Foundation 415 Lexington Avenue. March 4, 1891 - Lois W is born. March 5, 1945 - Time Magazine reports Detroit radio broadcasts of AA members. March 7, 1940 -- Bill and Lois visited the Philadelphia AA group. March 7, 1941 -- Boston newspaper reported that any drunk who wanted to get well was more than welcome at the AA meeting at 115 Newbury St., at 8 PM Wednesdays. March 9, 1941 - Wichita Beacon reports AA member from NY who wants to form a group in Wichita. March 10, 1944 - New York Intergroup was established. March 11, 1949 - The Calix Society, an association of Roman Catholic alcoholics who are maintaining their sobriety through participation in Alcoholics Anonymous, was formed in Minneapolis by five Catholic AA members. March 14, - South Orange, NJ, AA group held an anniversary dinner with Bill W as guest speaker March 15, 1941 - 1st AA group formed in New Haven, Connecticut. Not reported in paper until Oct 1, 1941. March 16, 1940 - Alcoholic Foundation and Works Publishing move from Newark to 30 Vesey St in lower Manhattan. First headquarters of our own. March 21, 1881 - Anne R, Dr Bobs wife, is born. March 21 1966 - Ebby dies. March 22, 1951 - Dr William Duncan Silkworth dies at Towns Hospital. March 22, 1984 - Clarence S, "Home Brewmeister", dies. March 23, 1936 - Bill and Lois visit Fitz M, "Our Southern Friend", in Maryland. March 25, 1898 -- Jim B ("The Vicious Cycle") was born. March 29, 1943 -- The Charleston Mail, WV, reported on Bill W's talk at St. John's Parish House. March 31, 1947 - 1st AA group formed in London, England. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4139. . . . . . . . . . . . Percentage women in AA worldwide? From: Terry Smith . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/1/2007 1:54:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello Everyone My name is Terry and I'm an Alcoholic. I have just taken on the commitment of History Secretary at The Barking Big Book Study -- The Way Out. What is the percentage of women today within AA worldwide? I would be grateful for any information or guidance. Many thanks and God bless regards Terry IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4140. . . . . . . . . . . . Price of a Big Book in Finland From: Paul S. . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/28/2007 12:04:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi there (over there) Today I was visting our Local Service Office (perhaps you could call it intergroup). Prices: Big Book in Finnish language 10 euros (13.35 USD, I presume) Pocket version (Finnish) 8 euros Big Book in English language 14 euros If you post-order them you have to pay the cost. (My homegroup buys them and usually gives them for free to newcomers after their first or second meeting a little depending on the circumstances.) All the best Paul S. aka soberfinn Helsinki, Finland IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4141. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: AA history in Great Britain From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/28/2007 5:35:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Share magazine - the British counterpart of Grapevine - has produced a book called Share and Share Alike to mark the 60th anniversary of AA's foundation in Britain (England, Scotland and Wales) on 31 March 1947. It contains stories from each of the past six decades of Share and its predecessor the AA Newsletter. The book also includes information about the British Fellowship's history. The price is £4.75 sterling (inc p+p), checks etc. payable to 'General Service Office'. Send orders to: Share and Share Alike, PO Box 1, 10 Toft Green, York YO1 7NJ UK. Laurie A., Editor, Share IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4142. . . . . . . . . . . . The Division of AA in FINLAND From: Soberholic . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/28/2007 12:45:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Gary Becktell wrote: "The permission (in Article Two) is given for the Conference (not AAWS) to grant the right to publish, and only where a General Service Structure exists. Central Mexicana was not a service structure but just a GSO. From Article Two: "In countries where a General Service Structure exists, the United States/Canada Conference will delegate sole right to publish our Conference-approved Literature to the General Service Board of that structure." This is not the case in Finland. Our General Service Structure was founded in 1998 - a year after the coup d'état performed by an organized group of loud and violent A.A. members in the annual meeting of Finnish A.A. in February 1997. Some 15-20 % of the groups decided not to accept all that happened and especially the false report of the event that was given to members. The rest of the groups swallowed the report reluctantly but time has done its work and the report has become "the official truth" The older structure that resembles more a labor union than A.A. structure has still the rights to publish literature. http://www2.stakes.fi/nat/pdf/04/NAT304.pdf [1] : A. Leppo: Grassroot democracy in an organized organization. Direct and representative democracy in the Finnish AA-movement AIM Alcoholics Anonymous’s non-hierarchical and nonbureaucratic organisation structure and its ability to maintain its unity is unique. AA has a “formal” level of decision-making – the AA service structure. The main activity for most members, however, is the grass-root activity in individual AA groups. There are certain tensions between these two. This case study analyses a conflict around the movement’s decision making structure in Finland in the late 1990’s. The disagreements led eventually to the founding of a new AA service structure which led in fact to 2 parallel service structures. The study also looks at the consequences the conflict had on the Finnish AA movement and its vitality. DATA The data is qualitative and consists primarily of taped interviews with 26 AA members. In addition, textual material written by AA members was analysed. RESULTS The analysis of the interviewees’ accounts revealed that the conflict was rooted in the movement’s concrete decision-making practices as well as collective identities entwined with the members’ social position. The grass- root activity of AA groups remained active despite the disputes on the movement’s organisational level and a majority of the members remained uninterested in the dispute. The conflict did, however, affect the movement’s ability to hold on to old members and attract new ones. Furthermore, it caused hurtful feelings to many and questioned the members’ feeling of belonging together. CONCLUSION It is suggested that the fact that the conflict resulted in the founding of a new AA service structure – instead of for example further specialisation on the group level – reflects the Finnish society and its organisational traditions. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4143. . . . . . . . . . . . Father Dunlea articles (2) Dublin Evening Mail 1946 From: JOHN e REID . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/1/2007 8:49:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A series of articles by Father Thomas V. Dunlea in the Dublin Evening Mail in 1946, Number 2. PLEA FOR IRISH BRANCH OF SOCIETY TO AID ALCOHOLICS Dublin Evening Mail Saturday, October 4, 1946 The Society of Alcoholics Anonymous, to which he belonged, would very much like to see a branch opened up in this country, said the Rev. Thomas V. Dunlea, parish priest of Sutherland, near Sydney, Australia, in an interview with an Evening Mail representative in which he described the work being done in his parish to help alcoholics. A native of Tipperary, Father Dunlea is founder and director of Australia's Boys Town and is touring America, Canada and Ireland to learn all he can of the social work being done in those countries. Though our representative tried to draw Father Dunlea out he refused to criticise any aspect of Irish social work, holding that it is not for him to criticise or hurt anyone's feelings. HOW THE SOCIETY BEGAN The Society was started in America in 1934 by two addicts who formed a club for their fellow suffers. For the first year there were three members and in the second year they had five. In the succeeding years they recruited their members successfully that today there are more than 50,000 addicts formed into loosely knit societies or clubs in America, New Zealand, Australia and England. In October, 1944, when Boy's Town was just three years old, Father Dunlea found time to found a branch of the Society in Sydney with Dr. Minogue, a famous Australian psychiatrist, and Mr. A. McKinnon a Scottish officer of a Sydney mental home. A remarkable point about the two Homes which Sydney now posses is the fact that people who work among addicts and seek to cure them of their complaint are fellow suffers who have benefited from the Homes. In the words of Father Dunlea "The Society believes that only an alcoholic can cure an alcoholic, as it is only a fellow suffer who can open a line of transmission to the heart of the patient." The different clubs or societies as they are usually called come together to discuss each other's problems. The only qualification for membership is a sincere desire on the part of the alcoholic to abstain from drinking. These clubs are purely convalescent homes and not institutions where members can stay indefinitely. Once they show signs of recovery and the drinking has been arrested they are sent back to their old jobs. If they should fall back into their old ways again one of the workers goes out and bring them back -- or if they are very bad to send them to hospital. There are no hard and fast rules in the clubs and no president or committee to run things. POLITICS TABOO The members live together, doing more or less as they please, while the workers, who can speak from experience, gradually talk them out of the highly strained and nervous condition to which they become prone. No temperance advocates are admitted to the clubs nor what are known as controlled drinkers. Ministers of religion, doctors and social workers can all help, but like all other non-alcoholics, they must keep severely to their own duties and never mention the subject of drink. Any subject which might upset the convalescent peace of mind, such as that of politics, is carefully kept out of the conversation. WOMEN VICTIMS The sufferers are taken from mental homes, jails, and street corners and usually kept in the clubs for two or three weeks. The first man with whom Father Dunlea came in contact had been in a mental home eight times. He said that alcohol addicts were usually clever people in professional occupations which called for a creative mind. Quite a number of women were included among them. The war had been a great factor in increasing the number of alcoholics in the world, while a shortage of liquor had worsened the condition of those who had already been sufferers. NATIONAL PROBLEM Father Dunlea said that in the history of the world there was probably never such a great a amount of alcoholism as existed today. It presented a national problem, and he considered the movement that had started in Australia as proverbially timely. In America a clinic to deal with the subject had been established by Yale University, and a wealthy personage had endowed a campaign to educate the public in the disease. Alcoholism, he said, was one of the four main health problems facing the world today, taking its place with T.B., cancer, and V.D. and it was one that the average person knew practically nothing. DRY HORRORS There were two characteristics to be found in nearly all alcoholics. They were hyper- sensitivity and ego-centricity. When an inebriate first tried to give up the use of intoxicants he passed through what were known as "dry horrors". His mind became increasingly a prey to anxious thoughts and even delusions and obsessions. Those could be relieved altogether by two or three strong doses of alcohol. But the inebriate could not stop once he had felt the effect of these doses and became a helpless slave, going on and on until he found himself under restraint. A person usually took a drink to that extent to get away from some wrong which was troubling him. VERY SENSITIVE They became very sensitive and had to be treated very carefully. To them a non-alcoholic was like a back seat driver who did nothing but state the obvious to the driver. They were sick people and had to be treated as such. So the Society concentrated on that and made no criticism of the amount of drink taken by people and made no effort to close public houses. All the workers kept their names secret from the public, hence their title-Alcoholics Anonymous. A great spirit of friendship was engendered among all the members and workers and the Society could claim to be one of the few on earth, if not the only one, in which God could be discussed by Jews, Protestants and Catholics in a manner which hurt no one's feelings. END OF TRANSCRIPT OF Article No 2. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4144. . . . . . . . . . . . Father Dunlea articles (1) Dublin Evening Mail 1946 From: JOHN e REID . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/1/2007 8:48:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A series of articles by Father Thomas V. Dunlea in the Dublin Evening Mail in 1946. - - - - Background: AA goes international, from Australia to Ireland. Australia October 1944 -- first non-American AA branch started in Sydney, Australia by Father Thomas V. Dunlea and Rex (see AAHL Message 3746). Ireland November 1946 -- then Ireland via Father Tom from down under and Conor F. Conor F. was "persuaded" by his wife after reading articles in the Dublin Evening Mail (October 1946) written by Father Thomas V. Dunlea, a Roman Catholic priest from Australia who was visiting Ireland (where he had originally been born, in Tipperary). Notes by John R. (1) As per all possibilities with the outside media reporting about A.A. there could be some journalistic licence taken in the articles about and following on from Fr. Tom D., in accuracies in numbers, terminology used, etc. It is more to do with history time lines than critique of the wording and interpretations of the 1940's in Ireland and it was well before the advent of the Traditions. However one can see the simplicity of the "Preamble." (2) Errors could occur in my re-print, in that the copies of the newspapers I have a very blurred. - - - - Fr. Tom Dunlea article (1) Dublin Evening Mail, Friday, October 4, 1946 A brief extract only from this first article. AN AUSTRALIAN BOYS' TOWN Visiting Clergyman Impressed By Work Of Mount St. Club. Rev. Thomas V. Dunlea, Tipperary-born Parish Priest of Sutherland near Sydney, Australia. He is the founder and director of Australian Boys' Town, the only equivalent in the world to Father Flanagan's institution in America. He is also a co-founder of a branch of the Alcoholics Anonymous Society in Sydney, which was formed to help suffers from alcoholism to overcome this weakness and return to work. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4145. . . . . . . . . . . . Father Dunlea articles (3) Dublin Evening Mail 1946 From: JOHN e REID . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/1/2007 8:49:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A series of articles by Father Thomas V. Dunlea in the Dublin Evening Mail in 1946, article number 3. TO HELP SUFFERERS FROM ALCOHOLISM Dublin Evening Mail Friday, November 1, 1946 An effort is to be made in Dublin to help the sufferers from alcoholism to overcome the obsession which compels them to drink against their will. The method to be used is known as Alcoholics Anonymous, about which little was known in this country until the recent visit here by of Father Dunlea, an Associate member of the organisation in Sydney, Australia who outlined the scheme to the Evening Post on Oct, 5th. Since then a member of the Society in Philadelphia, U.S.A. has arrived on a visit and yesterday told an Evening Mail reporter of the great success which it has achieved in America and of what it has meant to him personally. Born in Roscommon, he emigrated to America 17 years ago. [This was Conor Flynn. See AAHistory Lovers Message 3623, where Nancy Olson tells the whole story.] ON DRINKING BOUTS For the first seven years of his life in America he drank practically no alcohol, but after two years of social drinking he suddenly went on a two day drinking bout. Immediately after this he took a pledge for one year. After one year of sobriety he felt that he could safely drink normally again only to find that after a few short weeks of social drinking he was out on a four-day drinking bout. The next two years of his life were spent in periodic drinking bouts during which time the periods of sobriety gradually became shorter and less frequent. During this time h visited many sanatoria and hospitals and had the attention of the best doctors and psychiatrists, only to find that very little could be done to control his drinking. All this time he had been a successful business man with a nice home and was happily married. He could find no reason for his abnormal drinking. LOST THE DESIRE While in one of the hospitals he was contacted by a member of Alcoholics Anonymous. He had no reason to believe the Society could keep him sober, but as he has tried everything else without success and had an had an honesty desire for sobriety he decided to give it a trial. After joining the organisation he was amazed to find that it was composed of happy members who had been many years sober and had rid themselves of their alcoholic obsession. After 3 1/2 years in A.A. he found he no longer had any desire to drink an now states that if he had the choice between drinking normally again and his present existence he would prefer sobriety and the association of A.A. All that is necessary to become a member is a sincere desire to stop drinking. No charge is made for joining the Society, and there are no paid workers, everything being done by the members, who look upon it as an avocation. The Society does not cater for controlled drinkers, its only aim being to help those who have an obsession for drink. Full information will be given freely to those who apply through the box number at the end of this article. It is the hope of this gentleman that by December nucleus of workers will have been formed here to carry on the good work. True to the name of the Society he desires to remain anonymous. Will those interested write for free information to Box D554. END OF TRANSCRIPT OF Article No. 3 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4146. . . . . . . . . . . . Dublin Evening Mail articles (4) From: JOHN e REID . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/1/2007 8:49:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Article number 4: report on the actual start of A.A. in Ireland, follow-up on the Father Thomas V. Dunlea articles. ALCOHOLICS FORM NEW BODY Dublin Evening Mail Saturday, November 23, 1946 The Alcoholics Anonymous Association, formed to help sufferers from the dreaded disease of alcoholism, has recently established a small group in Dublin. Several private meetings have already been held as a result of which those who attended have derived considerable benefit and have become convinced that they have not been able to find any other way. The first public meeting of the Association will be held on Monday at 7:45 p.m., in the Country Shop, St. Stephen's Green, Dublin. Three of the speakers will be alcoholics and members of the Dublin group. DOCTOR TO SPEAK In addition, a doctor who is one of Dublin's leading psychiatrists and who has made a deep study of alcoholism, will give the meeting the benefit of his professional knowledge on this important subject. True to the name of the Society all will remain anonymous. It is hoped that all who have a sincere desire to stop drinking and to lead a normal, useful life will take this opportunity of learning what the Association offers as a constructive policy of recovery. It is also hoped that any who are interested directly attend with the object of hearing what the Association has done and is daily doing for alcoholics. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4147. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Percentage women in AA worldwide? From: spebsqsa@att.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/1/2007 4:41:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The percentage of women in A.A. in the United States and Canada according to the Triennial Surveys of Members was: 1968 22% 1971 25% 1974 25% 1977 33% 1980 33% 1983 33% 1986 34% 1989 35% 2001 33% 2004 35% Some years the pamphlet gave it as a percentage. Other years it was stated as "one in four" or "one in three." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4148. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Percentage women in AA worldwide? From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/2/2007 9:07:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Terry Check the link http://aa.org/en_media_resources.cfm?PageID=75 Or go to AA.org, click on Media Resources then click on AA Membership Survey then click on the image to read a PDF file of the 2004 membership survey. The 2004 Membership Survey cites an estimate of %36 for women in the US/Canada. I don't know how well that percentage projects worldwide. The next survey is due to be conducted this year. Arthur IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4149. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The Division of AA in Mexico From: spebsqsa@att.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/2/2007 9:54:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Didn't the split of A.A. in Mexico have something to do with social class? Maybe I missed it but I don't recall seeing that mentioned in this topic. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4150. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The Division of AA in Mexico (and Germany) From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/2/2007 11:15:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII To Gary B and Lee N - this is a very long reply The Germany and Mexico lawsuits are historic AA milestones whether or not they are viewed as infamous. Their history should be chronicled showing the viewpoints of both supporters and critics. Many AA members have staked out a position, some with reasoned argument and others with vitriol. The Traditions and Concepts are often cited as inviolable and near scriptural commandments that predetermine what the conduct of those who brought the lawsuit should have been. Similar scrutiny is rarely directed at the German member who was found guilty of breaking the law. He is typically portrayed as a noble victim absolved of his legal infractions because he wanted to do "12th Step activity." Those who stopped him from breaking the law are typically portrayed as villains having "hateful intentions." While it may be hard for some AA members to swallow, bodies of codified principles exist that take precedence over the Steps, Traditions and Concepts. They consist of state and national laws and treaties having the effect of law. Neither the Traditions nor Concepts nor claims of doing "12th step activities" provide a refuge of extralegal privilege to evade the law and the resulting consequences of its infraction. When AA members are involved in 12th Step calls, it does not grant them extralegal privileges to exceed speed limits or ignore red lights on the way to carry AA's message. Similarly, if AA members are unhappy with a Big Book translation, it does not endow them with extralegal privilege to print their own preferred version in violation of copyright laws with the alibi that it is "12th Step activity." Events leading up to the German lawsuit were premised on claims that the translation of the German Big Book lacked words denoting "spiritual" and instead substituted words denoting "psychological" and "intellectual." Those claims were bogus. The website that supported the German member carried the following statements: ---------- "A scientific research revaled [sic] differences between BBSG and German GSO versions of the big book. BBSG translated the multilith manuscript, because we were sure there were no restrictions by any copyright protection on it. German GSO sold a translation of 1983 based on the 3rd Edition of 1976, but this had many mistakes. For example: The 11 chapters contain the word "spiritual" 108 times in the multilith manuscript and 106 times in the 3rd Edition. The translation of 1983 contains the word "spiritual" only eight times. Caused by anti-spiritual resentments it was mostly replaced by "seelisch -- psychological" and/or by "geistig -- intellectual". This, among other faults, diluted the spiritual foundations of our recovery program and resulted in an extremely high relapse rate of more than 95% among German AA members. We felt obliged to take action. Our BBSG translation of [sic] has the correct German word "spirituell". There is more background information available at [.]" ---------- The notion of a 95% relapse rate is inane and unsubstantiated (but often repeated these days in AA as part of various agendas). That piece of fiction stems from the misinterpretation of a single graph in a 1989 GSO report on preceding AA membership surveys. Attempting to link bogus Big Book translation "mistakes" to the equally bogus 95% relapse rate as cause and effect is beyond absurd. Claiming that the translators were motivated by "anti-spiritual resentments" illustrates the disparaging hyperbole that has permeated and polluted commentary on the matter from its onset. The BBSG research was anything but "scientific." In their web site statement the German word "giestig" was defined to only mean "intellectual." It has several meanings "spiritual" being one of them. The word "seelisch" (derived from the German word "seele" or "soul") was defined to only mean "psychological" when it too has several meanings one of which is also "spiritual." The German member asserted that the word "spirituell" should have been used to denote the English word "spiritual." That's how the whole episode started. It was all a matter of semantic preference. Two Word documents were available that purported to demonstrate the shortcomings in the 1983 and 1996 German Big Book translations. After personally examining both of them line by line it was plainly evident that claims of translation shortcomings were disingenuous and far more delusional than definitive. The Big Book copyright has expired only in the US and is still in force outside the US through international treaty agreements. In the portion of the Concept 12 essay on Warranty 5, Bill W wrote "It was recognized that a public lawsuit is a public controversy, something in which our Tradition says we may not engage." His statement was in reference to a matter in the early 1950s of whether AA should petition Congress for congressional incorporation of the name "Alcoholics Anonymous." The Conference decision was "no" but matters changed over time and the name "Alcoholics Anonymous" and "A.A." were legally registered in 1972. Likewise Bill W's statement about lawsuits is not frozen in perpetuity. Hopefully, AA has not reached the mind-set of "Mathew, Mark, Luke and Bill" in interpreting Bill W's writings. His Traditions essays of the mid-1940s to early 1950s and his Concepts essays from the early 1960s most certainly did not anticipate such things as the world-wide internet, desk-top publishing, digitization and the international explosion of treaties and laws protecting intellectual property rights. From the material I've collected over the past years, the lawsuit episode suffers from a lack of balance and civil discussion in presenting both sides of the issue. The greatest part of the internet data consists of rather harsh accusations against the Board, AAWS and GSO at times portraying them as deriving joy out of the episode or having little better to do than seek out errant AA members to punish them. Something that is not well known in regard to lawsuits occurred at the 1993 and 1995 Conferences. The 1993 case involved the circle and triangle lawsuit. It was dropped and so were some recommendations of a special ad hoc committee formed the prior year to address the matter. The ad hoc committee's recommendation that "The Conference find that the initiation of litigation involving trademarks and service marks is a violation of Warranty Five" wound up as "not considered" in the Conference proceedings. The 1995 Conference concerned both the situation in Mexico and the German lawsuit. The 1995 Conference voted not to consider several proposed floor actions in the Conference proceedings. Among them: Not considered: "Area 44 [Northern New Jersey] requests that the 21 trustees of the General Service Board of Alcoholics Anonymous meet with representatives of the two service structures in Mexico (Central and Seccion). The purpose of this meeting, if needed, is to mediate the conflict and to bring to the 1996 Conference recommendations which would preclude reoccurrence of this type of conflict in any other situation/country." Not considered: "Seccion Mexico has sent three letters to our General Service Conference asking the Conference to review their petitions of grievance, which is their right under Concept V of World Service. To fulfill our spiritual responsibility I propose the following motion: "That this Conference review and discuss these petitions and forward a response to Seccion Mexico." Not considered: "The Conference recommends that the General Service Board and its subsidiary boards, AA World Services Inc and AA Grapevine Inc initiate no litigation in defense of copyrights and trademarks, in accordance with Tradition 10 and Warranty 5." While the 1995 Conference did not vote to approve lawsuits it did vote to decline to consider them. Gary, I've taken the time to respond to your individual points below and that will be the end of my participation in the exchange. Your points are denoted with "(GB)" and my response to them with "(AS)." ------------------------------------------------ (GB): I don't know where to begin, Arthur. Calling the members of the man's Home Group 'accomplices' seems a bit inflammatory. They are fellow members, joined in a 12th Step activity. The mail order business was not engaged in the Big Book give aways. You can refer to the findings from the German Court in dismissing the first complaint, the criminal charge. (AS): The trustees' 2004 Conference report states that the involvement of the mail order business was a documented fact in the distribution of the book in Russia through catalogs that the business mailed to Russian groups. AABBSG assisted and financially supported the German member's efforts. His actions were found to be illegal by a German court of law and its verdict was sustained on appeal. An accomplice is someone who helps somebody do something illegal. Labeling their actions as being "joined in a 12th Step activity" fails to distinguish between the stated nobility of intentions and the de facto illegitimacy of actions. One can carry AA's message without breaking the law. And as noted earlier there was no compelling reason to publish the illegal book in the first place. ------------------------------------------------ (GB): The 'small but vocal group' you refer to in Mexico was an entire service structure with over 2,000 groups, with Districts, Areas, Delegates and a Conference. (AS): The 2004 Conference report mentions a meeting between the German member and a "small but vocal group" of Mexican members. It was not a description of the size of Section Mexico. The German member and some "accomplices" published "El Libro Azul" (an illegal Spanish language knock-off of the Big Book). ------------------------------------------------ (GB): The permission (in Article Two) is given for the Conference (not AAWS) to grant the right to publish, and only where a General Service Structure exists. Central Mexicana was not a service structure but just a GSO. From Article Two: "In countries where a General Service Structure exists, the United States/Canada Conference will delegate sole right to publish our Conference-approved Literature to the General Service Board of that structure." (AS): Your legalistic interpretation is semantically and substantively incorrect. AAWS and GSO are both part of a "service structure" or "Conference" (re the service Manual footnotes for the Original Permanent Conference Charter). In 1979 the term "Conference" was defined to consist of "the Delegates, the Trustees, the General Service Board, the directors of AAWS and AA Grapevine and staff members of the Grapevine and GSO." They are all voting participants in the "Conference" of the US and Canada. Also reference the footnote for the Current Conference Charter which states "The word 'Conference' as used in paragraph 2 of the 'Current Conference Charter' appears to be synonymous with 'General Service Conference' or 'General Service Structure' in its application to national AA entities outside of the US/Canada; and, while the 'Charter' may provide guidance to other GSOs they are still autonomous, and not bound by its mandates, except where the law might require it (e.g. copyright law)." Each country can autonomously define its own service structure which does not have to be a replica of the US/Canada structure. Section Mexico broke away from Central Mexico who was recognized as the exclusive "service structure" for publication licensing. AAWS legitimately acted in its long- standing, and well-established, role of managing copyrights, reprint permissions and publication licenses for Conference- approved literature. Central Mexico qualified as a licensee and a General Service structure. ------------------------------------------------ (GB): Your 'wink, wink, nudge, nudge' comment concerning profit is definitely not researched. Before the civil case there was a criminal case where the German Court found that there was indeed no profiting going on. [reference to] http://gsowatch.aamo.info/ger/g8.gif. In fact, the books have a disclaimer on them that states that they are free and should not be bought or sold. Further, the financial report you are not aware of was given to the German court, which is part of the reason they dismissed the criminal charges. There is no evidence what-so-ever that there was anything but an altruistic motive in this case. As is a tradition in this country, guilt must be proved, not innocence. (AS): My comment was "Perhaps the acceptance of so-called '7th Traditions contributions' still means that the books were given away free (wink, wink, nudge, nudge) but I'll take that with a bit of skepticism." The word "profit" was not mentioned. The outside cover of the illegal publication states that it is for free and its inside cover states that AABBSG will accept "7th Tradition donations." That's what I was commenting on. I made no mention of criminal charges. In terms of the German court, it might be far more instructive to dwell on what they did do rather than on what they didn't do. The German member's guilt was proven in that court and upheld on appeal. ------------------------------------------------ (GB): You mentioned that the German member did not respond to the offer to forego reimbursement, etc. What you didn't mention was that there were many stipulations for that to take effect, not just the one you mentioned. One of the other stipulations was to reveal the names of all members of the AABBSG (his Home Group), breaking the anonymity of all at a public level. Of course he refused, and started paying. I would like to remind everyone that all the Big Books that were printed in Germany and Mexico were from the First or Second Editions, which are both in the Public Domain. (AS): The Steps, Traditions and Concepts are not conveniences to take refuge behind to avoid the consequences of breaking the law. According to the German member, the translators had it wrong, two Boards had it wrong, AAWS had it wrong and several GSOs had it wrong but he had it right. I'd suggest that the numbers do not work convincingly in his favor. As mentioned earlier, the Big Book copyright has lapsed only in the US. It is still valid outside the US by international treaty agreements. It is not in the public domain of the signatory countries nor is anyone legally permitted to print the book in the US and ship it overseas to a signatory country. As difficult as may be for some to acknowledge, AA members are obligated to comply with law the same as everyone else on this planet otherwise consequences ensue that are not waived based on AA membership. ------------------------------------------------ (GB): I suspect that is enough for now. I would like to suggest that anyone even slightly concerned about these issues read Concept XII, Warranty 5. In my Service Manual, it suggests that we not sue anyone, at any time, for any reason. Further, it says, "Some deviators have suffered rather severe personal criticism from individual AA members, and this is to be deplored." This was written by Bill W. Every piece of evidence points that this man and his group were carrying the AA message as best they could. While one may disagree with their methods, the hateful attacks seem inappropriate. Please reread Warranty 5. (AS): As stated earlier the Concepts are not laws or commandments and matters change over time (not to everyone's satisfaction). Your "Some deviators" citation would be more instructive by including the sentences that follow it: "Some deviators have suffered rather severe personal criticism from individual A.A. members, and this is to be deplored. However this is no reason for us to stop reminding all concerned of the undesirability of breaking A.A.'s Traditions before the entire public. It can be said in all fairness that the difficulties of those who contravene the Traditions are chiefly troubles of their own making." I'd suggest that the German member's troubles were of his own making and that the evidence demonstrated that he was breaking the law. He certainly had a role in fomenting public controversy in several countries and doing harm to AA as a whole with rather inflammatory content and commentary over the internet. Claims of "carrying AA's message as best they could" seem to fall more into the category of "alibi" rather than exoneration. The AA service entities that brought the lawsuit have also had their staff members subjected to broad-brush severe personal criticism whether or not the staff member had any role at all in the lawsuit. Claiming that they engaged in "hateful attacks" is neither demonstrated nor warranted. It falls into the same hyperbole of claiming that the German translators were motivated by "anti-spiritual resentments." It's far more a product of negative imagination rather than objective investigation. The critics of the German law suit seem to have little tolerance and much scorn of an opposing viewpoint. AA's message can be carried without breaking the law. It's that simple. Finally, the only hateful attacks I've witnessed (and there is audit trail archive of it going back for years) have emanated from the web site you use as a reference. You are part of that group. Over the past several years: Has that group done any harm to AA as a whole by continually claiming that the AA service entities that brought the lawsuit did so as a hateful attack rather than on the reasons they explained to the General Service Conferences? Has that group done any harm to AA as a whole where, to this day, just about any action of the part of those service entities is still subject to international public ridicule and condemnation (over the world-wide internet)? Has that group engaged in public controversy by inciting AA members and groups to take the punitive action of withholding donations to GSO based on a single issue and despite all the other good service works done by GSO? Has that group done harm to AA as a whole in its pillory of Bill W's authorship role in the Big Book or in its public broadcast of the embarrassment concerning his named beneficiaries in his last will and testament? Is there one set of Traditions and Concepts that apply to the Board, AAWS and GSO but a different set that apply to AA members using the internet (an international public forum) often to the extreme of engaging in slander and revisionist history? Arthur IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4151. . . . . . . . . . . . I''ve Never Quit Being Active (1968), Clarence S. From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/3/2007 7:03:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I've Never Quit Being Active by Clarence Snyder A.A. Grapevine, November 1999 On February 11, 1938, I had my last drink. I was a chronic alky, and through a long, involved miracle, I met my sponsor, Dr. Bob, one of our co-founders. He put me in Akron City Hospital, where I met the alkies who had preceded me in the Fellowship. Fifteen months later, I organized the Cleveland, Ohio AA group. The activity in the Cleveland area was hectic. I spent practically all my time obtaining and following up on publicity for AA, lining up cooperation with civic and church groups, hospitals, and courts, and helping new groups to start. So what do I do now, thirty years later? I have never quit being active, although my position in the Fellowship has modified over the years. I attend an average of two meetings per week, when I am home. I am also asked to speak at various groups. In addition, I am invited to take part in numerous group anniversary programs and AA roundups around the country (and sometimes out of the country). Many people call upon me for counsel and advice on both personal and group problems. I have an extensive correspondence, since I have made so many friends in AA from coast to coast. Once in a while, I sponsor someone. Cases where about everything has been tried, by everyone else, often wind up in my hands. I have not found the program to be difficult, and I maintain that if it does seem difficult for anyone, he is not doing it "right." Certainly, when I came to this Fellowship, I was in no position or condition to handle anything difficult! I kept things simple. But I must add that when I first began I was well sponsored. I took measures now summarized in the first nine Steps of the program: admittance of need (the First Step), surrender (Second through Seventh), and restitution (Eighth and Ninth). Having done this, I no longer had a drinking problem, since it had been turned over to a Higher Power. Now I had - and still have - a living problem. But that is taken care of by the practice of Steps Ten, Eleven, and Twelve. So I don't have to be concerned about anything but a simple three-step program, which with practice has become habitual. Step Ten enables me to check on myself and my activities of the day. I have found that most things disturbing me are little things, but still the very things which, if not dealt with, can pile up and eventually overwhelm me. My daily checkup covers good deeds as well as questionable ones; often, I find I can commend myself in some areas, while in others I owe apologies. Step Eleven is done after my daily inventory. I usually need the peace resulting from prayer and meditation, and I do receive guidance for my life and actions. Step Twelve, to me, does involve not only carrying the message, but extending AA principles into all phases of my daily life. I learned long ago that this is a life- changing program, but that, after the change occurs, it is necessary for me to go on making the effort to improve myself mentally, morally, and spiritually. This is my simple program, and I recommend it to anyone who wants a good life and is willing to do his share of helping. C.H.S., St. Petersburg, Florida IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4152. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Percentage women in AA worldwide? From: Bob McK. . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/3/2007 8:01:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII 35% at last count. This and other AA information is available on AA's website: aa.org as well is in a printed pamphlet (P-48) called the Membership Survey: http://aa.org/en_pdfs/p-48_04survey.pdf Why only 35%? Shouldn't it be 50%. That's what I thought. But about 10 years ago I was standing in a buffet line next to John Chappel, a Reno, NV psychiatrist and one of our Class A Trustees. We had just reviewed the membership survey. John said that it's a funny thing. As best as medical science knows from autopsies, etc., no more than 20-25% of alcoholics are women. And yet we have a much higher percentage in AA. John surmised that this may be because these two men developed a program that involves "sharing your feelings" and this was something women do better than men. I do not know how accurate the medical science number is and our statistic is definitely subject to question, but this was an interesting interaction that stuck with me. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4153. . . . . . . . . . . . Irish bishops on alcoholism in Ireland From: jblair101 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/3/2007 6:58:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII For those interested about alcoholism in Ireland, I suggest viewing "Reduce alcohol consumption hurting the family, nation, Irish bishops urge" at http://www.catholic.org/printer_friendly.php?id=23061§ion=Cathcom and "Text of the Irish bishops' pastoral letter `Alcohol: The Challenge of Moderation'" at http://www.catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=23062 john blair IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4154. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA in Mexico (Wayne Parks as author of Big Book) From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/3/2007 8:54:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Very interesting reply. I did see a few remarks about LAWS and pretty much the so-called rule of law. I didn't however see anyone mention that the author of the Big Book as registered at the copyright office in Mexico is Wayne Parks. It appears that in order to get a valid copyright in Mexico there has to be a living author. Of course, Bill Wilson wasn't living when that book was copyrighted in Mexico. Since we are so interested in the law as Arthur wrote - "While it may be hard for some AA members to swallow, bodies of codified principles exist that take precedence over the Steps,Traditions and Concepts. They consist of > state and national laws and treaties having the effect of law" Is Wayne Parks the legitimate author of the Big Book or are some laws and principles such as truth exempt here? I am sure someone will write in with the copy of the actual document bearing Wayne's signature. Are we interested in THE truth or some truth or a selective truth. After all, there is no crime unless one gets caught. > To Gary B and Lee N - > this is a very long reply > > The Germany and Mexico lawsuits are > historic AA milestones whether or not they > are viewed as infamous. Their history should > be chronicled showing the viewpoints of both > supporters and critics. Many AA members > have staked out a position, some with > reasoned argument and others with vitriol. > > The Traditions and Concepts are often cited > as inviolable and near scriptural > commandments that predetermine what the > conduct of those who brought the lawsuit > should have been. Similar scrutiny is rarely > directed at the German member who was > found guilty of breaking the law. He is > typically portrayed as a noble victim > absolved of his legal infractions because he > wanted to do "12th Step activity." Those who > stopped him from breaking the law are > typically portrayed as villains having "hateful > intentions." > > While it may be hard for some AA members > to swallow, bodies of codified principles > exist that take precedence over the Steps, > Traditions and Concepts. They consist of > state and national laws and treaties having > the effect of law. Neither the Traditions nor > Concepts nor claims of doing "12th step > activities" provide a refuge of extralegal > privilege to evade the law and the resulting > consequences of its infraction. > > When AA members are involved in 12th Step > calls, it does not grant them extralegal > privileges to exceed speed limits or ignore > red lights on the way to carry AA's message. > Similarly, if AA members are unhappy with > a Big Book translation, it does not endow > them with extralegal privilege to print their > > own preferred version in violation of > copyright laws with the alibi that it is "12th > Step activity." > > Events leading up to the German lawsuit > were premised on claims that the translation > of the German Big Book lacked words > denoting "spiritual" and instead substituted > words denoting "psychological" and > "intellectual." Those claims were bogus. The > website that supported the German member > carried the following statements: > > ---------- > "A scientific research revaled [sic] > differences between BBSG and German GSO > versions of the big book. > > BBSG translated the multilith manuscript, > because we were sure there were no > restrictions by any copyright protection on it. > German GSO sold a translation of 1983 > based on the 3rd Edition of 1976, but this > had many mistakes. For example: The 11 > chapters contain the word "spiritual" 108 > times in the multilith manuscript and 106 > times in the 3rd Edition. The translation of > 1983 contains the word "spiritual" only eight > times. Caused by anti-spiritual resentments it > was mostly replaced by "seelisch -- > psychological" and/or by "geistig -- > intellectual". This, among other faults, > diluted the spiritual foundations of our > recovery program and resulted in an > extremely high relapse rate of more than > 95% among German AA members. We felt > obliged to take action. Our BBSG translation > of [sic] has the correct German word > "spirituell". There is more background > information available at [.]" > ---------- > > The notion of a 95% relapse rate is inane and > unsubstantiated (but often repeated these > days in AA as part of various agendas). That > piece of fiction stems from the > misinterpretation of a single graph in a 1989 > GSO report on preceding AA membership > surveys. > > Attempting to link bogus Big Book > translation "mistakes" to the equally bogus > 95% relapse rate as cause and effect is > beyond absurd. Claiming that the translators > were motivated by "anti-spiritual > resentments" illustrates the disparaging > hyperbole that has permeated and polluted > commentary on the matter from its onset. > > The BBSG research was anything but > "scientific." In their web site statement > the German word "giestig" was defined to > only mean "intellectual." It has several > meanings "spiritual" being one of them. The > word "seelisch" (derived from the German > word "seele" or "soul") was defined to only > mean "psychological" when it too has several > meanings one of which is also "spiritual." > The German member asserted that the word > "spirituell" should have been used to denote > the English word "spiritual." That's how the > whole episode started. It was all a matter of > semantic preference. > > Two Word documents were available that > purported to demonstrate the shortcomings in > the 1983 and 1996 German Big Book > translations. After personally examining both > of them line by line it was plainly evident > that claims of translation shortcomings were > disingenuous and far more delusional than > definitive. > > The Big Book copyright has expired only in > the US and is still in force outside the US > through international treaty agreements. > > In the portion of the Concept 12 essay on > Warranty 5, Bill W wrote "It was recognized > that a public lawsuit is a public controversy, > something in which our Tradition says we > may not engage." His statement was in > reference to a matter in the early 1950s of > whether AA should petition Congress for > congressional incorporation of the name > "Alcoholics Anonymous." > > The Conference decision was "no" but > matters changed over time and the name > "Alcoholics Anonymous" and "A.A." were > legally registered in 1972. Likewise Bill W's > statement about lawsuits is not frozen in > perpetuity. Hopefully, AA has not reached > the mind-set of "Mathew, Mark, Luke and > Bill" in interpreting Bill W's writings. His > Traditions essays of the mid-1940s to early > 1950s and his Concepts essays from the > early 1960s most certainly did not anticipate > such things as the world-wide internet, > desk-top publishing, digitization and the > international explosion of treaties and laws > protecting intellectual property rights. > > From the material I've collected over the past > years, the lawsuit episode suffers from a lack > of balance and civil discussion in presenting > both sides of the issue. The greatest part of > the internet data consists of rather harsh > accusations against the Board, AAWS and > GSO at times portraying them as deriving joy > out of the episode or having little better to do > than seek out errant AA members to punish > them. > > Something that is not well known in regard to > lawsuits occurred at the 1993 and 1995 > Conferences. The 1993 case involved the > circle and triangle lawsuit. It was dropped > and so were some recommendations of a > special ad hoc committee formed the prior > year to address the matter. The ad hoc > > committee's recommendation that "The > Conference find that the initiation of > litigation involving trademarks and service > marks is a violation of Warranty Five" > wound up as "not considered" in the > Conference proceedings. > > The 1995 Conference concerned both the > situation in Mexico and the German lawsuit. > The 1995 Conference voted not to consider > several proposed floor actions in the > Conference proceedings. Among them: > > Not considered: "Area 44 [Northern New > Jersey] requests that the 21 trustees of the > General Service Board of Alcoholics > Anonymous meet with representatives of the > two service structures in Mexico (Central > and Seccion). The purpose of this meeting, if > needed, is to mediate the conflict and to bring > to the 1996 Conference recommendations > which would preclude reoccurrence of this > type of conflict in any other > situation/country." > > === message truncated === IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4155. . . . . . . . . . . . How can we search for Grapevine articles by Priscilla P.? From: theresa leisinger . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/5/2007 11:48:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I love the Grapevine digital archives site. Fascinating and inspiring.I was there the other day,looking up some old Tiebout articles I had heard about. Any idea what search words might help me turn up some Priscilla P. articles? I tried the other day, no luck. Maybe I'll just have to read them all, one at a time! IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4157. . . . . . . . . . . . Big Book price in Mexico From: Angela Corelis . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/4/2007 10:07:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Just returned from quarterly Nayarit II District Meeting, held here in Puerto Vallarta. At the literature table, GSO publication Big Book ................... 18 pesos.. about 1.60 U$ Pocket Big Book..........24 p....about 2.30U$ Twelve Steps...............12 p.....about 1.15 U$ 12X12..........................34p .....about 3.20 U$ For comparison a cup of coffee in Mexican.. not tourist areas is about 10 p..U$ 0.95 (only have soft bound in Mexico...that I know of) I do not consider that expensive for AA literature. As rule other books are expensive in Mexico, 15-30 US$ from the days when most wood pulp for paper was imported because of a 20 year moritorium on logging...and of course when that was lifted, costs remained high. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4158. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: How can we search for Grapevine articles by Priscilla P.? From: Corey Franks . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/7/2007 11:02:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII HI.. I did a 13 month Intership with Bill P. at Hazelden a few years ago and found Priscilla P in a lot of Articles i had read in the Grapevines. Bill P. had me read from the first one out there who was in the very early days until way into the laters days. She had great influence in AA circles in the beginnings and she was very right on with her articles and participation. Quite the outstanding person! Look her up in the earliest of the Grapevines. Thx! Corey F. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4159. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: How can we search for Grapevine articles by Priscilla P.? From: Sally Brown . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/6/2007 11:53:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dave and I have never tried searching for any of Priscilla P's articles, whether in the Grapevine or Vogue Magazine, where she was art editor for decades. In fact, we've not seen any example of her written work except a love note or two. Odd, when I think of it, considering she was an English major in college, and certainly knew her way around words. But her favored mode of expression was art - drawing and painting. Have you tried just her initials, P.P.? It's also possible she never did sign what she wrote. Do let me know if you come across anything. Good luck! Shalom - Sally Rev Sally Brown, coauthor A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann: The First Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous Board Certified Clinical Chaplain United Church of Christ www.sallyanddavidbrown.com 1470 Sand Hill Road, 309 Palo Alto, CA 94304 Phone/Fax: 650 325 5258 Email: rev.sally@att.net IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4160. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "came to scoff" quote From: TBaerMojo@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/7/2007 10:06:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "The Deserted Village" is often quoted here by fans of Auburn University who cite the phrase "lovelist village of the plain" as a tribute to their school. Of course, most have not read the poem or they would realize that it is about the glory that used to be and is now gone. But, what the heck, it's a land grant university. Thanks for the info on the origin of the last sentence in Silkworth's opinion that without spiritual help drunks are doomed. Tim -----Original Message----- From: awn4@columbia.edu To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 7:54 AM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] "came to scoff" quote From Dr. Silkworth's letter, it is quoted from Oliver Goldsmith, "The Deserted Village," with an echo in the story in "Tom Sawyer" about whitewashing the fence. - - - - Hey folks, Maybe you all knew this already, but I was thrilled this morning to stumble across the origin of the last line of Dr. Silkworth's letter on page xxxii in The Doctor's Opinion. The sentence reads, "I earnestly advise every alcoholic to read this book through, and though perhaps he came to scoff, he may remain to pray." I've begun reading "Tom Sawyer" to my third-grade daughter in the morning before the school bus arrives. Today we read the famous second chapter where Tom tricks the boys in the neighborhood to pay him for the privilege of whitewashing the fence for him. Mark Twain writes, "...they came to jeer but remained to whitewash." The footnote then refers us to "The Deserted Village," a poem written in 1770 by Oliver Goldsmith. Lines 177-180 read, "At church, with meek and unaffected grace,/His looks adorned the venerable place;/Truth from his lips prevailed the double sway,/And fools, who came to scoff, remained to pray." Here's Wikipedia on Goldsmith: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_Goldsmith And here's the poem: http://www.english.upenn.edu/~mgamer/Etexts/goldsmith Did I find something new? New to me, at any rate. I love The Doctor's Opinion. Sasha ************ Sasha N. in Amherst IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4161. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA in Mexico (Wayne Parks as author of Big Book) From: Lee Nickerson . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/7/2007 2:01:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII To me, when all of this was happening, it was not the details that seemed to matter to the minority who opposed the public controversy in Mexico and Germany; it was the aggresive chauvinistic attitude of AAWS and its then President and GSO manager, George D. that upset us. We never had any defense against the legal arguments that were tossed around but we were united in the fact that the Traditions, Concepts, and the clear intentions of our founders were being violated with impunity and spiritual arrogance. --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Mitchell K." wrote: > > Very interesting reply. I did see a few remarks about > LAWS and pretty much the so-called rule of law. I > didn't however see anyone mention that the author of > the Big Book as registered at the copyright office in > Mexico is Wayne Parks. It appears that in order to get > a valid copyright in Mexico there has to be a living > author. Of course, Bill Wilson wasn't living when that > book was copyrighted in Mexico. Since we are so > interested in the law as Arthur wrote - "While it may > be hard for some AA members to swallow, bodies of > codified principles exist that take precedence over > the Steps,Traditions and Concepts. They consist of > > state and national laws and treaties having the > effect of law" > > Is Wayne Parks the legitimate author of the Big Book > or are some laws and principles such as truth exempt > here? I am sure someone will write in with the copy of > the actual document bearing Wayne's signature. > > Are we interested in THE truth or some truth or a > selective truth. After all, there is no crime unless > one gets caught. > > > > > To Gary B and Lee N - > > this is a very long reply > > > > The Germany and Mexico lawsuits are > > historic AA milestones whether or not they > > are viewed as infamous. Their history should > > be chronicled showing the viewpoints of both > > supporters and critics. Many AA members > > have staked out a position, some with > > reasoned argument and others with vitriol. > > > > The Traditions and Concepts are often cited > > as inviolable and near scriptural > > commandments that predetermine what the > > conduct of those who brought the lawsuit > > should have been. Similar scrutiny is rarely > > directed at the German member who was > > found guilty of breaking the law. He is > > typically portrayed as a noble victim > > absolved of his legal infractions because he > > wanted to do "12th Step activity." Those who > > stopped him from breaking the law are > > typically portrayed as villains having "hateful > > intentions." > > > > While it may be hard for some AA members > > to swallow, bodies of codified principles > > exist that take precedence over the Steps, > > Traditions and Concepts. They consist of > > state and national laws and treaties having > > the effect of law. Neither the Traditions nor > > Concepts nor claims of doing "12th step > > activities" provide a refuge of extralegal > > privilege to evade the law and the resulting > > consequences of its infraction. > > > > When AA members are involved in 12th Step > > calls, it does not grant them extralegal > > privileges to exceed speed limits or ignore > > red lights on the way to carry AA's message. > > Similarly, if AA members are unhappy with > > a Big Book translation, it does not endow > > them with extralegal privilege to print their > > > > own preferred version in violation of > > copyright laws with the alibi that it is "12th > > Step activity." > > > > Events leading up to the German lawsuit > > were premised on claims that the translation > > of the German Big Book lacked words > > denoting "spiritual" and instead substituted > > words denoting "psychological" and > > "intellectual." Those claims were bogus. The > > website that supported the German member > > carried the following statements: > > > > ---------- > > "A scientific research revaled [sic] > > differences between BBSG and German GSO > > versions of the big book. > > > > BBSG translated the multilith manuscript, > > because we were sure there were no > > restrictions by any copyright protection on it. > > German GSO sold a translation of 1983 > > based on the 3rd Edition of 1976, but this > > had many mistakes. For example: The 11 > > chapters contain the word "spiritual" 108 > > times in the multilith manuscript and 106 > > times in the 3rd Edition. The translation of > > 1983 contains the word "spiritual" only eight > > times. Caused by anti-spiritual resentments it > > was mostly replaced by "seelisch -- > > psychological" and/or by "geistig -- > > intellectual". This, among other faults, > > diluted the spiritual foundations of our > > recovery program and resulted in an > > extremely high relapse rate of more than > > 95% among German AA members. We felt > > obliged to take action. Our BBSG translation > > of [sic] has the correct German word > > "spirituell". There is more background > > information available at [.]" > > ---------- > > > > The notion of a 95% relapse rate is inane and > > unsubstantiated (but often repeated these > > days in AA as part of various agendas). That > > piece of fiction stems from the > > misinterpretation of a single graph in a 1989 > > GSO report on preceding AA membership > > surveys. > > > > Attempting to link bogus Big Book > > translation "mistakes" to the equally bogus > > 95% relapse rate as cause and effect is > > beyond absurd. Claiming that the translators > > were motivated by "anti-spiritual > > resentments" illustrates the disparaging > > hyperbole that has permeated and polluted > > commentary on the matter from its onset. > > > > The BBSG research was anything but > > "scientific." In their web site statement > > the German word "giestig" was defined to > > only mean "intellectual." It has several > > meanings "spiritual" being one of them. The > > word "seelisch" (derived from the German > > word "seele" or "soul") was defined to only > > mean "psychological" when it too has several > > meanings one of which is also "spiritual." > > The German member asserted that the word > > "spirituell" should have been used to denote > > the English word "spiritual." That's how the > > whole episode started. It was all a matter of > > semantic preference. > > > > Two Word documents were available that > > purported to demonstrate the shortcomings in > > the 1983 and 1996 German Big Book > > translations. After personally examining both > > of them line by line it was plainly evident > > that claims of translation shortcomings were > > disingenuous and far more delusional than > > definitive. > > > > The Big Book copyright has expired only in > > the US and is still in force outside the US > > through international treaty agreements. > > > > In the portion of the Concept 12 essay on > > Warranty 5, Bill W wrote "It was recognized > > that a public lawsuit is a public controversy, > > something in which our Tradition says we > > may not engage." His statement was in > > reference to a matter in the early 1950s of > > whether AA should petition Congress for > > congressional incorporation of the name > > "Alcoholics Anonymous." > > > > The Conference decision was "no" but > > matters changed over time and the name > > "Alcoholics Anonymous" and "A.A." were > > legally registered in 1972. Likewise Bill W's > > statement about lawsuits is not frozen in > > perpetuity. Hopefully, AA has not reached > > the mind-set of "Mathew, Mark, Luke and > > Bill" in interpreting Bill W's writings. His > > Traditions essays of the mid-1940s to early > > 1950s and his Concepts essays from the > > early 1960s most certainly did not anticipate > > such things as the world-wide internet, > > desk-top publishing, digitization and the > > international explosion of treaties and laws > > protecting intellectual property rights. > > > > From the material I've collected over the past > > years, the lawsuit episode suffers from a lack > > of balance and civil discussion in presenting > > both sides of the issue. The greatest part of > > the internet data consists of rather harsh > > accusations against the Board, AAWS and > > GSO at times portraying them as deriving joy > > out of the episode or having little better to do > > than seek out errant AA members to punish > > them. > > > > Something that is not well known in regard to > > lawsuits occurred at the 1993 and 1995 > > Conferences. The 1993 case involved the > > circle and triangle lawsuit. It was dropped > > and so were some recommendations of a > > special ad hoc committee formed the prior > > year to address the matter. The ad hoc > > > > committee's recommendation that "The > > Conference find that the initiation of > > litigation involving trademarks and service > > marks is a violation of Warranty Five" > > wound up as "not considered" in the > > Conference proceedings. > > > > The 1995 Conference concerned both the > > situation in Mexico and the German lawsuit. > > The 1995 Conference voted not to consider > > several proposed floor actions in the > > Conference proceedings. Among them: > > > > Not considered: "Area 44 [Northern New > > Jersey] requests that the 21 trustees of the > > General Service Board of Alcoholics > > Anonymous meet with representatives of the > > two service structures in Mexico (Central > > and Seccion). The purpose of this meeting, if > > needed, is to mediate the conflict and to bring > > to the 1996 Conference recommendations > > which would preclude reoccurrence of this > > type of conflict in any other > > situation/country." > > > > > === message truncated === > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4162. . . . . . . . . . . . The start of AA in Ireland from the Furrow (Nov. 1953) From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/7/2007 4:06:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: JOHN e REID (jre33756 at bigpond.net.au) Subject: The start of AA in Ireland (article from The Furrow, November 1953) "Twenty-nine years ago it was carried to Australia by a travelling American". (Further comment by John R- The genesis of AA came to Australia via the Big Book being sent to Dr. Sylvester Minogue in 1942.) "Three years later, it came indirectly from Australia to Ireland, this time by a priest. This priest was on holiday in Dublin in September 1946 and was interviewed by an evening paper on the subject of a Boy’s Town with which he was connected in Australia. In the course of his talk he commented at length on the success that A.A. was having in Sydney and expressed the hope that Dublin would do well to take it up. This interview was read by a member of the Philadelphia group, an Irishman who had gone to live in the States, who was over here on holiday. Spurred on by his wife, he determined to start a group in Dublin, with the help of a doctor and by advertising, he managed to scrape together a small number of men willing to make the experiment. Their first public meeting was held in The Country Shop on November25th.; and here on that night the first A.A. group in Europe was formed." THE FURROW, NOVEMBER, 1953 (Details amended to 1972) ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS A CATHOLIC MEMBERS APPRECIATION "I HEAR the A.A. want to start a group here. Do you know anything about these fellows?" I was shown this part of a letter from one country priest to another not so long ago. I am an alcoholic myself and a member of A.A. for twenty-four years. My own success in the adventure of sobriety is bound up with the success of A.A. in Ireland. The object of this article is to tell something about "these fellows": what we are, what we try to do and what we have so far achieved. For we have found a knowledge and understanding of A.A. has made us friends and gained us helpers. Up to comparatively recently, Society has placed all drunks in the same category - weak-willed, callous, helpless and unhelpable, intentional sinners, skeletons whose greatest offence is that they will not remain snugly in their family cupboards. Yet nearly everyone knows at least one person whose drinking has apparently almost without warning become incomprehensible. Men with good homes, money, good business or jobs, good reputations, healthy, in no way unhappy, suddenly go off the rails. Normal, seemingly, when not drinking, their characters undergo a complete change once they start on alcohol. Their former occasional "night-outs" develop swiftly into bouts, the bouts come closer and closer together. In many cases they are seldom completely sober. Their drinking is followed by periods of intense remorse, by sincere though short lived attempts to stay off liquor. Their relatives are in turn startled, puzzled, anxious to help, resentful, contemptuous, enraged. They themselves are at first sure they can find a way of retaining control "next time," then frightened when they fail repeatedly, then hopeless. Their complete ignorance of what has happened to them, what is still happened to them, what is still happening to them, makes it impossible for them to explain to, and gain the understanding sympathy of, those they love and respect. Little by little they cut themselves off from their world; they live in a state of desperate loneliness and finally become outcasts. These are the persons sometimes called the Problem Drinkers. They are, in fact, alcoholics or compulsive drinkers, suffering from a physical allergy to alcohol combined with a mental obsession to take more once they start to drink: drinkers whose compulsion to drink is a sign of disease. There are few alcoholics who have recovered who would deny that this disease is really spiritual. A.A. is a loose knit society of men and women alcoholics who have banded together in groups all over the world to share their experience, strength and hope with each other, that they may solve their common problem and help others to recover from alcoholism. There are at the time of writing over 14,000 such groups, with a total membership of about 500,000 spread all over the world. The only requirement for membership is a sincere desire to stop drinking. A.A. is not allied with any particular religion, creed or denomination. It has nothing to do with politics, other organizations or any institution. A.A. simply minds its own business…to stay sober and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety. Alcoholism is not a purely Catholic, Protestant or Jewish disease; it is not the exclusive illness of either the millionaire or the down-and-out. Alcoholism strikes at all creeds, class and income—grades impartially. A.A.’s success has largely derived from its refusal to recognize any difference between one alcoholic and another. They are all sick persons, requiring A.A. ‘s help. A.A. does not usurp the place of Church or Medicine. The alcoholic who joins in poor physical condition is strongly advised to consult his doctor. The alcoholic’s religion, or lack of it, is his own affair. In general, it has been our experience that a good A.A. member becomes a better member of his Church. But our primary object is to achieve sobriety. From that sobriety the other things will stem; without it, they are impossible. A.A. is not concerned with money. It has nothing to sell and none of its members are paid for A.A. work. There are no positions of authority to be obtained; each member is on exactly the same footing. Its policy of anonymity does away with the danger of membership being used as a means of obtaining personal kudos. Thus the three most ordinary occasions of disunity and disruption are guarded against. Each group is autonomous. Its own members care for the necessary money to meet expenses of rent, printing and incidentals. Donations from outside sources are politely refused. Its officers are elected in rotation. Its policy of anonymity was first chosen as a worldly safeguard for its members; the spiritual value of anonymity has become more apparent since. But while personal anonymity is required, A.A. is only too glad of any publicity to its aims and being. It came into existence thirty six years ago in America through a chance meeting between a New York stockbroker named Bill (in A.A. all members go by their first names), and an Akron doctor, Bob. Bill had already managed to keep sober for six months as the result of following out a few principles of living largely based on the Oxford Groups "Absolutes." He had, however, just had the bad end of a business deal and came to realize that to preserve his own sobriety he must make contact with another alcoholic and help him to achieve sobriety as well. Both of these men had long and dreadful histories of drink; but from that first meeting, they both remained sober. Bob died twenty-two years ago, but Bill lived till 1971, a total abstainer for over 36 years, after he had been given up as a hopeless and unhelpable drunk. The society they started that day grew slowly and shakily; it took over four years to muster the first hundred members. Since then it has grown in increasing tempo to its present size. In numbers it is still mainly American, United States and Canada. Twenty-nine years ago it was carried to Australia by a travelling American. Three years later, it came indirectly from Australia to Ireland, this time by a priest. This priest was on holiday in Dublin in September 1946 and was interviewed by an evening paper on the subject of a Boy’s Town with which he was connected in Australia. In the course of his talk he commented at length on the success that A.A. was having in Sydney and expressed the hope that Dublin would do well to take it up. This interview was read by a member of the Philadelphia group, an Irishman who had gone to live in the States, who was over here on holiday. Spurred on by his wife, he determined to start a group in Dublin, with the help of a doctor and by advertising, he managed to scrape together a small number of men willing to make the experiment. Their first public meeting was held in The Country Shop on November 25th.; and here on that night the first A.A. group in Europe was formed. As in America, the start was slow and uphill. Today it is firmly established in Dublin (35 Groups ); there are many large groups in Belfast; there are several groups in Limerick, Cork and Galway, and smaller ones elsewhere. Public meetings are held every Monday night, still in The Country Shop, where attendance’s range from 50 upwards to 100. The maximum attendance was at a meeting held in the Mansion House when over 400 came along to listen to the Co-Founder of the Society, Bill. At a conservative estimate, there are at least 2000 members in Ireland and an estimated 8,000 in England, Scotland and Wales. A good many others, though partially convinced, are not yet ready to make, and act on, the necessary admission that they are beaten by drink. A world estimate is that about 70% of those who join and give the A.A. program a fair trial recover, though a great many of these suffer one or more relapses before they finally settle down. A short time ago, I was asked at a clerical meeting to explain to them why an alcoholic went on drinking long after it was evident that he was incapable of exercising control. I find it almost impossible to do so. I can only say that for a very long period of my own thirty years drinking I honestly believed I could, someday and somehow, find a way of drinking all I wanted without losing control. Life without drink seemed to me to be an unnatural and quite impossible way of existence. Later I became drearily hopeless and fatalistic about it. Though I still continued to make attempts to pull up, I felt even at the time that they were quite useless. I felt it would start again sometime, so what was the use of trying too hard? The truth is that we don’t know why we drink; but when we tell the truth, we are not believed. Strength of will and sincerity of purpose do not enter into it. I have entered my name for a Retreat to find help in Quitting drink, yet gone to that retreat with a bottle of gin in my bag, which I drank between the first exercise and going to sleep. After a month’s voluntary treatment in a private home, I felt convinced I had mastered drink; and been drinking again within a few hours. Drink makes us mentally unbalanced and we cannot be honest even with ourselves for long at a time. My own case history may be cited as typical of an A.A. member, though space will mercifully prelude any but the minimum necessary details. I am seventy-five years of age, single and come from a good class Catholic family. My home life was happy and I went to a Catholic College in England. Later I entered the profession I wanted to join; I was very happy in it, I got on well. I was good at games; I was considered good at work, above the average of my rank in the British Army. I had a promising future to look forward to, I had nothing from which to escape. There was no previous history of drink in my family. I can see no reason why I should have become an alcoholic, yet almost from the start I drank like an alcoholic. At first I had some sort of control over myself as to when I drank. If circumstances seemed to indicate the need for it, I cut out drinking without much effort and with no feeling of self sacrifice. But even in those first years if I drank at all I went on for the rest of the night. Soon I was losing even that control. I began to drink at the wrong times, in the wrong places and before the wrong people. Good luck and good friends covered up for me for many years, but finally life caught up on me and I was retired on retired pay, branded as not to be re-employed. This virtual dismissal made very little impression on me. I still had enough money for drink and I had a home to live in. Six more years were to pass before the climax came. I had been inflicting every kind of unhappiness not only on myself but on my parents, not the least for the latter being my complete indifference to my religious duties. In April 1947 they ordered me out of the house and the family and their lives. By now I had added drugs to alcohol. My routine had become one of the drugs in the morning to revive me, drink all day and another drug at night to give me sleep. My parents’ "revolt" opened my eyes for the first time to where I had descended. It proved to be my own gutter. Fear for my security and at the prospect of becoming one of the legion of the homeless lost ( with the next stop almost certainly a Night Shelter ), at last made me genuinely willing in my own interest to do anything I could to stop drinking ("Give me back my Legions".). The trouble was that I could think of nothing useful. Doctors, homes, hospitals, promises, all had proved in vain. Then my memory went back to that interview I had read nine months before, about A.A. The Grace of God must have put it into my heart to go to a meeting that night, and I managed to strike a one-sided bargain with my parents that if A.A. could do some good I might stay at my parents on probation. I arrived at that meeting, more than half-drunk, shaking from drugs and nerves; not too good a prospect, even for A.A. By the goodness of God and the help He has sent me through A.A. I have not had another drink since then. There is no set blueprint of recovery in A.A. Each member succeeds in his own way and time and at his own pace. So what I write must be taken as my own experience only. For me, recovery came from Knowledge, Decision, Group or social therapy, a return to Realism and the program of the Twelve Steps. All of these together for me make up the A.A. way of life. And I attacked my recovery problem in just that order, which seems to me to be entirely logical. Without Knowledge, I could not come to any decision that would stand up for long. Without Decision to recover, group therapy would be a waste of time. Without Realism I should have been continuing my old pattern of running away into dreamland from the inescapable facts of life. And while all these things were essential to me to stop drinking, I had to bring another factor into play, the Twelve Steps, to learn not only how to remain abstinent but to be happy in remaining so. That Knowledge was elementary, though new to me. Alcoholism is a sort of disease acquired by two or three percent of the world’s drinkers. The disease in simplifying language is the disease of not being able to drink in moderation. It is the first drink the alcoholic takes that sets his disease in active virulence, not the total quantity consumed. Alcoholism cannot be completely eliminated once it gains a footing. No matter how long I might remain abstinent at a time, I would never be able to control my drinking if I started again. But if I could find a way of not taking a first drink, I could stay sober and normal. The decision I had to take was to give up drinking for good. I had to face the unpalatable fact that I must make abstinence my own first and most vital aim. As for the group therapy, I was prepared to accept that the older members had had to make themselves essential to their groups and the groups essential to themselves. If I was going to avail myself of the same means that they had found necessary and successful, it followed that I must attempt what they did. Group therapy to me does not merely mean coming together at stated times for formal meetings. These meetings are important for many reasons and as the visible sign of coherence. The equally valuable, though invisible, sign is keeping the closest possible touch with the members of the group even when they are not in actual physical contact. That can be done by constantly thinking about the group, working for it, praying for it; keeping it in mind as much as possible. Reality consisted in recognizing that my alcoholic life must be cut down to a size I could hope to deal with. My disposition was such that if I continued to think of abstinence in terms of months or years, I would be pretty certain that nothing would be done. So I adopted the A.A. suggestion of living my life in periods of twenty-four hours at a time. Today, the only day in reality that I ever have at my disposal. From the beginning, I slowly advanced to being content to accomplish only what of the rest of my life I could fit into Today. That again required further realism to determine which things were of the most immediate importance to be done Today. But my primary reality will always remain concentrated on not taking one single drink Today. Finally, the program of recovery, contained in the following Twelve Steps: 1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol -- that our lives had become unmanageable. 2. Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity. 3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him. 4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves. 5. Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs. 6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character. 7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings. 8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed and became willing to make amends to them all. 9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others. 10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it. 11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out. 12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps we tried to carry this message to alcoholics and practice these principles in all our affairs. These steps seem strong meat for reforming alcoholics. It helped me greatly to remember that this program was not some optimistic chart for super-saints. It was based on the actual experience of human beings, alcoholics like myself. They were not impossibly idealistic steps; they had all been attempted by others successfully. It is sometimes said that all the steps are spiritual except the first. For me, the first step is also essentially spiritual. I could admit in words to myself that I was powerless over alcohol, but where would that take me unless that admission embraced not only the actual wording but also what was implicit in it? No, taking that step was a declaration to myself that because I sincerely wanted to recover, I was fully resolved to try to live out the way of life suggested in the following eleven steps. The second step, too, called for determination. Here I could no longer avoid my spiritual life. I had to subdue my pride and acknowledge that a greater Power, God, was in complete control of my life. I had to strive to make God a daily living reality in my life, not a pious Sunday morning superstition. The third step was perhaps the hardest, relinquishing control and guidance of my life to God. But in the measure of the success I attained here would lie the measure of success I would meet with in continued sobriety, happiness and peace of mind. The fourth step was akin to our general confession. For me, that moral inventory was not a moral mudrake but a serious effort to find out about myself, to find what things stood in the way of my carrying out the third step. The fourth step taught me self-knowledge. We take an inventory of ourselves; we do not attempt to beat our neighbor’s breast. The fifth was only a practical application of the truism that confession is good for the soul. This and the next few following steps contain no great difficulty for the alcoholic who is sincere in his acceptance of the third. The tenth was our nightly examination of conscience with the added obligation of owing up to human beings when we were frankly wrong. The eleventh was a guide to our carrying out the third. The sting of the steps is contained in the tail of the Twelfth, that part which suggests we carry out the foregoing principles in all our affairs. Many may be willing enough to practice them in their alcoholic affairs. The older members had found out that this would not be enough to ensure happiness and a good conscience. This part of the steps is that which binds ‘them all together. It cannot be ignored with safety. It always remains important that we remember why we joined A.A. It was to recover our own sobriety for our own sakes; not to preach to the unconverted. That must remain our primary goal. We cannot afford to forget our previously helplessness when friends talk prettily of our apostolic mission. Charity begins at home. Since A.A. has been operating there for longer and on a very much greater scale, the Church in America has had more opportunity to assess its work and direction. An extract from a letter received here from the Chancellor of a very large archdiocese will give some idea of the impression made. "The Bishops of our country up to now have not taken any official stand on A.A. The movement has not been condemned; the movement has not been officially approved. Personally I am convinced that the A.A. movement is the most sound and the most successful approach that has ever been made in our country to the problem of the alcoholic. In my archdiocese, I am under the impression that about one-half of its members at one time were Catholics. The Twelve Steps appeal to me as being entirely in harmony with the Catholic faith and morals, as being clearly stated religious and moral principles in language which is simple and easily understood. Honesty to oneself, humility, contrition, purpose of amendment, unburdening one’s soul and accusing one’s self of failing to another person, placing one’s hope and confidence in God, making restitution, relying upon prayer and meditation, spiritual reading, seem to me to be sound and solid principles necessary for rehabilitation. The apostolic step to carry the message to alcoholics and to help others to rehabilitate themselves ‘is also in conformity with Christian teaching and seems to be psychologically of utmost importance. Cases have come to my attention of priests who were victims of alcoholism being re-instated through A.A. A large number of lukewarm and indifferent Catholics have returned to an active practice of their faith; and strange as it may seem, several instances are known of non-Catholics who have been brought to the Catholic faith through the A.A. movement... The Chancery has been very solicitous to avoid giving the impression that the archdiocese was trying to take over the A.A. movement or trying to interfere in either the organization or activities of the Group." It may sound ungracious to stress the importance of that last sentence, considering that A.A. is looking for all the help the Church can give. But one of the biggest attractions to the prospective member is that he is joining a society of alcoholics run and controlled in every way by alcoholics. Any suggestion that the group was in someway controlled or unduly influenced by an outside "partisan" body, however benevolently disposed, would be bad news for the unity of the members. We seem to be forced into the ungenerous position of having to say to our outside helpers: "Please do all you can for us; but stay in your corner until we want you." In truth, we are only guided by our experience, which is that one alcoholic is the best ambassador to another. We speak the same language, a language that cannot be entirely understood by even the most sympathetic of our friends who is not himself an alcoholic. What we ask from priests who have a will to help us is that they will be content with steering alcoholics towards us and that they will be willing to stand aside when they have done so; that they will, even though perhaps with every conscious effort, try to understand that the alcoholic is not, in his present condition at least, a deliberate sinner but a very sick person requiring experienced treatment; and that they will examine our successes rather than our failures, for our successes are being gained in a field considered hopeless until recently. And we ask them, too, not to look on us as rivals to any temperance movement already sponsored by them. We are not in competition with anyone or anything. A.A. is not a charitable society in the sense that it engages to supply its members with loans of money, employment or even clothes for which it has no further personal use. It is a charitable society in the meaning of Christ’s teaching. We ask for nothing material for ourselves personally or as groups. We do ask for charity for the sick alcoholic; sympathy for his problem; understanding of his condition and a willingness to advise him to seek recovery where so many thousands have already found it. A.A. is in no way a substitute for the Sacraments"; it has proved to be in most cases of Catholic alcoholics a positive urge towards them. It is with confidence then that we ask for the good will of the readers of The Furrow and for their prayers - that those of us who have recovered may maintain our sobriety and that the Grace of God may bring our members and their families that happiness which is the end of man. A Member C/o The Country Shop, 23 St. Stephen’s Green, Dublin. March 1972 The Vatican and Alcoholics Anonymous. A Dublin member of Alcoholics Anonymous, 23 St. Stephens Green, Dublin 2, writes: Archbishop Enrici, Apostolic Nuncio to Great Britain, came to, and spoke at the recent European Convention of A.A. held at Bristol at the end of September last. Afterwards he made the suggestion that, as he believed little was known at the Vatican about A.A. and its suggested way of recovery, a visit from a couple of its members might be of great value to both parties. Accordingly, in January of this year, an English Catholic member and I departed for Rome and remained for a fortnight. Our only contact, up to the time of our arrival there, was through the Bishop of Clifton, the very recently appointed rector of the English College. But through his generous guidance we obtained a list of those he thought we should try to contact. And through the kindness of the Irish mother superior of the Poor Servants of the Mother of God at Mater Dei Convent (they have a sister house in Raheny, Dublin), we were lent the services of an Italian-speaking nun to help us to effect the necessary approaches by telephone. We acknowledge with deep gratitude that all of them, very willingly and at very short notice, agreed to make the appointments which enabled us to carry out the program given briefly as follows: Talks given to the students and staff of the English, Irish, Beda, Scottish and North American Colleges. Reception by Mgr. Uylenbroek, Secretary of the Council of the Laity. Reception by Cardinal John Joseph Wright, Prefect of the Sacred Congregation for the Clergy. Reception by the Superior General of the Society of Jesus, Very Rev. Father Arrupe, S.J. Reception by the Servants of the Paraclete. On January 19, we had the supreme honour of being received by His Holiness Pope Paul in private audience. The Pope graciously greeted us not only for our own sakes, but for the work we were engaged on (i.e. Alcoholics Anonymous ), which he described as fine work, a real apostolate. He urged us to press on with our work, gave it his blessing and told us that he would keep it and us in his prayers. The granting of this private audience went far beyond our dearest dreams and was a most wonderful experience for us both. It was, too, a historic event in the thirty-six—year history of our fellowship, being the first and so far the only occasion on which a reigning pontiff has received individuals in private audience as members of Alcoholics Anonymous. The editor of The Furrow, who has always been so generous in his encouragement and active aid to A.A., has placed me more deeply in his debt than ever by inviting this short account of our embassy to Rome. It is a pleasure to inform him that reprints of an article ‘A Catholic Member’s Appreciation of Alcoholics Anonymous,’ which appeared in The Furrow of November 1953, have found a good home and an enthusiastic reception in all the departments of the Secretariat and in all the colleges we had the good fortune to visit. ----- Original Message ----- Dear John, I found this article in my documents in the archives. I dont know who send it to me as I copied it into Word. You may have even sent it. It doesn't matter as long as you get a copy. I'm going to laminate this too as it is from another source. God bless love Ron From: JOHN R. To: Ron C. Subject: Fw: The start of AA in Ireland Dear Ron, Thanks for that. I sent it to you. But I had lost the original copy. So praise God for miracles that are as modern as tomorrow (or today's technology), in that it has been retrieved. Thanks and Kind Regards, John R IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4163. . . . . . . . . . . . From Akron to the Internet From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/7/2007 4:51:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII FROM AKRON to the INTERNET A time line of A.A. communication The ways A.A's carry the message have changed over the years. The message hasn't. 1935: Bill W. and Dr. Bob meet face to face in Akron. 1939: The Big Book is published, carrying the message in print. 1939: First public service message about the Big Book appears in a New York Times ad, "Have You an Alcoholic Problem?" 1941: NBC begins a 13-part syndicated radio program called Is Alcohol a Problem in Your Home? 1941: Saturday Evening Post publishes Jack Alexander's article about AA. 1944: The AA Grapevine begins monthly publication as AA's meeting in print. 1945: Paramount Pictures releases the movie The Lost Weekend, based on the novel by Charles Jackson. 1946: Marty Mann explains alcoholism and AA on the radio show We The People. 1947: First transatlantic telephone call is received by The Alcoholic Foundation from an Army hospital in Germany. 1948: An AA member explains principles of the program on Hi, Jinx, a morning radio show on WNBC. 1949: CBS radio broadcasts a 10 episode drama about an alcoholic who finds AA. GSO is deluged with inquiries. 1953: HAAM, an international fellowship of AA ham radio operators, is established. 1953: Art Linkletter interviews a masked woman member of AA on his TV show. 1954: The Grapevine asks for the signals of amateur radio operators who would like to communicate via the airwaves. 1956: An all-AA TV program, Mr. Hope, an actual closed meeting of masked AA members, debuts in Detroit. AA HQ in Detroit is besieged by telephone calls and letters from people wanting more information. 1956: Bill W. and Eve M. from general service are anonymous guests on the popular radio show Martha Deane on WOR. 1960: Broadcast of a radio show called Alcoholism - The Problem and the Hope, featuring Marty Mann and a GSO staff member. 1962: The Betty Furness radio program features a show on international AA. 1963: The movie Days of Wine and Roses is previewed by GSO staffers before its release. l963: WNBC begins broadcasting an AA radio program called Ask an Alcoholic. 1966: AA creates a 60-second TV spot for distribution by public information committees. 1966: Five groups in two states hold the first telephone conference-call meeting. 1970: KUAT in Tucson, AZ, launches AA-of-the-Air, a radio show for homebound AAs. 1973: David Suskind interviews 5 women AAs on his TV show. 1976: Members of AA, Al-Anon, and Alateen are interviewed on the John Gentry Radio Show on WGCH in Greenwich, CT. 1979: The 29th General Service Conference views and approves Alcoholics Anonymous - An Inside View, a 28-minute color film produced by AA. 1980s: First AA bulletin boards, online meetings, and chat rooms appear. 1986: Q-Link, one of the first online AA groups, begins meeting, growing to 200 members nationwide in two years. 1988: GSO begins compiling a list of online AA groups. 1989: ABC-TV broadcasts My Name is Bill W. 1990s: TDD (text telephone) technology helps hard-of-hearing AAs talk with other AAs. 1990: Kansas Area public information establishes AA Message of the Day, a telephone service featuring daily readings from the "Twelve and Twelve." 1990: Connecticut's public radio show, Open Air New England, puts open AA meetings on the air. 1992: Thirteen 1-hour AA meetings airing 3 times a week are broadcast on cable TV stations in Portland, OR. 1995: Online Intergroup of Alcoholics Anonymous (OIAA) is established. 2002: The Queensland Young People in AA Convention is netcast worldwide from Australia. 2002: Online AA reps meet, hoping to establish a service conference for AA in cyberspace. From the AA Grapevine with addition: 2003-2004: Today there are literally thousands of Cyberspace Recovery sites and domains, AA chats, bulletin boards and meetings, a number of which are live voice meetings regularly scheduled 24 hours around the clock, and in many languages and countries other than the US. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4164. . . . . . . . . . . . "Bill W. and Dr. Bob" the play From: jblair101 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/7/2007 7:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This play has been traveling in recent years and is now off-Broadway. Here is but one review: MY NAME IS 'BILL W.,' AND I'M A BAD PLAY By FRANK SCHECK, New York Post, March 6, 2007 Rating: 1 1/2 stars March 6, 2007 -- WHO would have guessed a drama about the founders of Alcoholics Anonymous would be the laugh riot of the year? But that's the unfortunate result of "Bill W. and Dr. Bob," the well-intentioned but haplessly executed effort written by novelist Stephen Bergman and clinical psychologist Janet Surrey that opened last night. What should have been a powerful and inspirational story plays instead like a drunken road-show version of "The Producers." The problem certainly isn't with the source material, which inspired a superb television movie years ago, "My Name is Bill W.," co-starring James Woods and James Garner. This tale of the legendary 1935 meeting between alcoholics Bill Wilson (Robert Krakovski, delivering an intense performance), a failed New York stockbroker, and Dr. Bob Smith (Patrick Husted), an Ohio surgeon, which led to the formation of one of the most influential organizations in modern history, could have been the stuff of gripping drama. Unfortunately, the production, directed by Rick Lombardo and originally presented at Boston's New Repertory Theatre, goes for a tone that seems mostly geared for laughs. The endless and repetitive drunk scenes, especially the ones involving Dr. Bob, are played with a broadness suited to W.C. Fields - witness the scene when, after operating on one of his patients while under the influence, he happily reports, "I'm OK. Patient's OK, too!" (Cue audience hilarity.) Things don't improve in the tedious dramatic scenes illustrating Wilson's strained marriage with his long-suffering wife (Rachel Harker) and the efforts made by Wilson and the newly sober Smith to spread their doctrine to a variety of initially less-than-receptive drunks (all played by Marc Carver). There are some undeniably moving moments in the show, and it's only fair to report that the audience - uncommonly large for a new off-Broadway play - responded with obvious enthusiasm. But it's hard not to wish that this important tale had been rendered in a more sober fashion. BILL W. AND DR. BOB New World Stages, 340 W. 50th St.; (212) 239-6200. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4165. . . . . . . . . . . . Another New York review of the play, "Bill W. and Dr. Bob" From: jblair101 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/7/2007 7:53:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Reviews Mar 6, 2007 New York Bill W. and Dr. Bob Reviewed By: David Finkle Robert Krakovski and Patrick Husted in Bill W. and Dr. Bob
(© Carol Rosegg) Robert Krakovski and Patrick Husted in Bill W. and Dr. Bob (© Carol Rosegg) "My name is Bill W., and I'm an alcoholic," confides a character standing under an isolating light at the very start of Bill W. and Dr. Bob, Stephen Bergman and Janet Surrey's crudely constructed if undeniably sincere play about the founders of Alcoholics Anonymous. At the performance I attended at least a third of the audience members cheerily responded "Hi, Bill" or "Hey, Bill." When immediately afterward, a second character standing in a second shock of light says, "Dr. Bob, alcoholic," the same third of the audience -- now augmented by a few bandwagon-hoppers -- responded with "Hi, Bob." If a significant portion of the ticket buyers behaved as if they were at a church-basement AA meeting, listening to a peer begin a confessional speech, in a way they were. To use support-group vernacular, the patrons were present at the ultimate qualification, or candid revelation of one's drinking history. Since people in recovery don't usually seek social niceties from their gatherings, neither are they likely to demand drama turgical niceties in a play that champions Bill Wilson and Dr. Robert Smith, a couple of supposedly hopeless drunks who had the breakthrough understanding in 1935 that sharing humiliating experiences is what could lead chronic drinkers to forego their debilitating habit. It's probably helpful to keep in mind while watching this depiction of this story -- which for many has a weight equivalent to Moses' bringing the tablets back from Mount Sinai -- that the literature cherished by AA members often has the homogenized feel of committee writing. Even Anita Fuchs' set, which consists mostly of looming panels that travel clumsily back and forth, has the makeshift appearance of a meeting room. In a series of introductory scenes, New York stockbroker Bill Wilson (Robert Krakovski) and Ohio surgeon Bob Smith (Patrick Husted) are shown literally falling-down drunk, often trying the patience of their long-suffering wives Lois Wilson (Rachel Harker) and Anne Smith (Kathleen Doyle). Even Smith's exposure to the pre-AA Oxford Group precepts doesn't convince him to stop drinking, but it does prepare him for a desperate tete-a-tete with the now-sober Wilson, who ends up in Akron on a business trip and needs to talk to another empathizing boozer to avoid going on a bender. By the time they finish their inaugural six-hour chat at the home of local doyenne Henrietta Seiberling (Deanna Dunmyer), they've established the basic structure for every AA meeting since. As the first act ends, the pair realizes they need to confirm their theory by recruiting one more convert. In act two, they do so -- but only after encountering potential-member difficulties and dealing with resistance from their dubious wives. It reveals nothing to say they find their man. The rest is spiritual -- and spirits -- history. In keeping with the quality of the writing, director Rick Lombardo's production is rough around the edges. Some of the acting, particularly during the inebriation segments, is reminiscent of the Reefer Madness under-marijuana-influence scenes; it's histrionic, let-this-be-a-lesson-to-you stuff. On balance, Husted's Dr. Bob is more controlled than Krakovski's Bill W., while Doyle's Anne Smith is better crafted than Harker's Lois Wilson. But nuance isn't high on anyone's to-do-list, including Marc Carver and Deanna Dunmyer, who play everybody else who come in contact with the men. The promotional material for Bill W. and Dr. Bob proclaims it the "first-ever play about the founders of Alcoholics Anonymous." However, a superior 1989 teleplay, My Name is Bill W., starring James Woods and James Garner as the seminal figures, exists and is available for home viewing. Nevertheless, Bergman and Surrey's script will likely lead to future productions, especially by amateur and AA groups everywhere. The birth of Alcoholics Anonymous may not be the greatest story every told, but without question it's one of the greatest 20th-century stories -- even when it isn't told greatly. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4166. . . . . . . . . . . . The Nixon Letters (1974) From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/8/2007 10:21:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The Nixon Letters Richard Nixon was presented with the 1 millionth copy of the Big Book. It was presented by Dr. Jack Norris. A picture of Dr. Norris presenting it to Nixon hangs on the wall at Stepping Stones. Tom Pike, an early California AA member sober since 1946 had arranged for this presentation. Tom had served as Assistant Secretary of Defense and Special Assistant to President Eisenhower. When the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism (NIAAA) authorized by the Hughes Act was created, Tom, along with Marty Mann and others, was appointed to the NIAAA advisory committee, and when his term ended he was replaced by his wife, Katherine. During Watergate, Tom told me he had written a letter to Nixon advising him to use the 12 steps, but not because of his drinking. Both his letter to President Nixon, as well as President Nixon's reply are included below. February 1, 1974 President Richard M. Nixon The White House 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue Washington, DC Dear Mr. President: Your State of the Union speech delivered to Congress was easily one of the finest I've heard you deliver. And I've heard you make a lot of good ones since you took on Jerry Voorhees in 1946 out here in the old 12th C.D.! Your style, your appearance, your manner, and what you said were confident, strong, and impressive. You were every inch the leader in full command of himself and the situation. Your whole performance was one to inspire and rebuild the confidence of all who heard you, even including the Democrats. Restoring the national confidence in the President is the biggest task you have. No military, industrial, or government leader can lead without this indispensable ingredient of confidence. I remember when I was in the White House in 1956 and 1958 trying to help Eisenhower and Sherm Adams ward off impending recession and stem a rising unemployment rate, our overriding agenda item was how to restore citizens and consumer confidence and optimism. As your long time good friend and supporter, whose faith, confidence, and affection is still strong today, I would like to make a suggestion which I hope you will consider seriously. You may think me presumptuous, but as an old friend, I am willing to run that risk. First, a bit of necessary background: it has been established since time immemorial that admission of fault is good for the soul and that to err human and to forgive is divine. These are two principles found in most of the world's religions, ancient and modern. They are also used by modern psychiatrists and psychologists. Not surprisingly, because these principles are basic to the needs of man, they are also contained in the 12 Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous which you can find in Chapter 5 of the Big AA book we presented you in April of last year at the White House. These 12 Steps are forged from simple universal principles drawn from religion and medicine. They constitute a program of recovery that works! I suggest that you substitute the word, "Watergate" for "alcohol" in the first step (which would then read "admitted we were powerless over Watergate, and that our lives had become unmanageable"). Then you should conscientiously apply the rest of the 12 steps to your own situation. I am confident such a course of personal action rigorously followed, would ultimately resolve this difficult dilemma for you and the country. My prime suggestion: In whatever way you can, after carefully studying Steps 4, 5, 6, and 7, put Step 10 into action: -- "when we were wrong, promptly admitted it". I know it's late, and there are many complexities legal and otherwise, but if you could somehow publicly admit more fully the mismanagement of Watergate, I am confident that you personally and the country will experience relief, surcease, and new hope beyond your fondest expectations. (See the attached Harris Poll clip from today's Los Angeles Times on Public Compassion.) And why? Simply because the country's President and its citizens are both human and divine and have always behaved and reacted like the creatures of God which indeed they are. I believe most people know almost instinctively that to be forgiven, they must forgive, and who among us has not erred -- does not need forgiveness? By using these principles, Len Firestone and Jonathan Winters, Jim Kemper, and I have discovered the way out of the baffling personal dilemma which nearly destroyed us. You can too, Mr. President! If you would like to explore this personally and in greater depth, please call on me. Nothing would please me more. Katherine's and my fervent prayer for you and Pat is that God will make His will known to you and give you the power to carry it out. Faithfully yours, Thomas P. Pike. P.S. You demonstrated good understanding on Step 11 when you urged those attending the prayer breakfast yesterday "to try through prayer to find out what God wants America to be rather than to ask Him always to see that what we believe America to be prevails." Step 11: "Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, seeking only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry it out." T.P.P. - - - - POLL FIND COMPASSION FOR NIXON Chicago (UPI) -- Watergate developments have damaged President Nixon's public esteem but they also are evoking a sense of public compassion, according to the latest survey by pollster Louis Harris. This was the conclusion drawn when 56% of those queried agreed with a statement that the President is "trying to do his best in an almost impossible job." Only 38% disagreed. - - - - THE WHITE HOUSE Washington February 25, 1974 Dear Tom: Before another day passes, I wanted you to know that I received your very thoughtful letter of February 1. Many times in the past I have had occasion to thank you, but I must say once again how much it means to know I have been able to count on the loyalty and understanding of so many long-time friends. I deeply appreciate your suggestions and the genuine spirit of concern and goodwill in which they were made. As you know, in several televised press conferences I accepted responsibility along the lines you discussed. Further, on a number of occasions I have pledged my full cooperation to the Special Prosecutor and to the Judiciary Committee so that the investigations can be concluded, the guilty parties brought to justice, and those innocent of any wrongdoing may be cleared and, hopefully, have their good names and reputations restored. However, I have also stated that I will follow the precedent set by every other United States President of never doing anything that weakens the Office of the President or impairs the ability of future Presidents to make the great decisions that are so essential to this Nation and to the world. This has been a difficult period not only for me but for all Americans, and when this and related matters are brought to a full and just resolution, I am confident the majority of the American people will come to understand that the trust they placed in me has not been violated. In the meanwhile, it is a source of constant reassurance to me to have the support of friends like Katherine and you and to be included in your prayers. Pat joins me in sending you both our warmest personal regards. Sincerely, RN Mr. Thomas P. Pike 611 West Sixth Street Los Angeles, California 90017. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4167. . . . . . . . . . . . Richard Nixon, Tom Pike, and the Hughes Act From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/12/2007 1:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The two most important pieces of legislation about alcoholism in the United States were the Prohibition Amendment and the Hughes Act. The first ended up being widely regarded as a failure.* The second was not only a success, it still lies at the base of some of the most effective help being given to American alcoholics even today, over thirty-five years later. Most modern American alcoholism treatment facilities, along with the kind of alcoholism counselors whom they use and sometimes a significant part of their funding, are based on the provisions of the Hughes Act. The Hughes Act was put on the legislative agenda in the U.S. Congress by Senator Harold Hughes from Iowa, who had served a series of terms as governor of Iowa before being elected to the U.S. Senate, in spite of admitting openly that he was a recovered alcoholic. Following the precedent set by Mrs. Marty Mann, he and Tom Pike and other major political figures freely acknowledged their alcoholism in public, but made no mention of their membership in A.A. except in private. In private of course, we can see Tom Pike not only mentioning his A.A. membership to President Nixon, but preaching the twelve steps to the president in this fascinating letter that Bill Lash has found. Of special interest to us in this group: Nancy Olson, the founder of the AAHistoryLovers, was another of the key political figures during the period when the Hughes Act was being passed and implemented (1970-1980). She was the senatorial aide whom Senator Hughes assigned to do whatever had to been done in order to get the legislation passed. On many occasions, Nancy also played a key role in coordinating the efforts of the many other A.A. members in Washington D.C. and elsewhere who were involved in gaining passage of the bill. President Nixon was one of the Washington figures who opposed the Hughes Act. For a long time after its passage, he refused to sign it, which would have been the equivalent of vetoing it. Tom Pike, whom Nixon regarded as a good friend and staunch supporter, was one of the influential A.A. people who kept up the pressure on Nixon in their private contacts with him until he finally grudgingly put his signature on the bill. Part of the problem was that Hughes and some of his supporters were Democrats. Pike, as a devoted Republican, was able to add his voice in support of the Hughes Act and raise the issue above the partisan level. For a full account of the enactment and implementation of the Hughes Act, see Nancy Olson, With a Lot of Help from Our Friends: The Politics of Alcoholism. http://hindsfoot.org/kNO1.html http://hindsfoot.org/kNO2.html http://hindsfoot.org/kNO3.html ______________________________ *During the Prohibition Era, the number of people in the United States who died of cirrhosis of the liver and other strongly alcohol related diseases underwent a slight but nevertheless significant and measurable decline. On that ground, it could be regarded as a public health success. The two problems were that (1) it did nothing effective to prevent true hardcore chronic alcoholics from obtaining alcohol. It was not a solution at all to the problem of alcoholism. Real alcoholics obtained easily available illegal alcohol or brewed or fermented their own alcoholic beverages. And (2) the rise of criminal associations for importing or making illegal alcohol produced murder, violence, and lawbreaking on a scale which the government could not deal with effectively. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4168. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA in Mexico (Wayne Parks as author of Big Book) From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/8/2007 7:12:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The hyperbole associated with the Section Mexico situation is no less extreme than that of the German situation. The paragraph below, by a Section Mexico member named Alberto P, is an example. It speaks volumes and is posted on the web site containing a copy of the Mexican copyright document being portrayed as a deception on the part of Wayne P. (From the web site): "[editor's note: In Mexico, one trusted servant and long time AA member, who served more than 2000 AA groups was sentenced for one year of prison, because of alleged copyright violation on August 4th 1995. This was possible because in 1992 AAWS had registered the book in Mexico as sole copyright owner. The registration states, that Wgne (sic) P___ is the author of the book "Alcoholics Anonymous" and the English-Spanish translator is Jose A L G___. It seems to be a common pattern, that AAWS employs lies, falsified evidence and wrong allegations to stop the AA message from being carried and maintain a monopoly.]" The statement gives the impression that someone was jailed for a year. But later the web site states: "The sentence was to put the accused (an alcoholic Trustee) in jail for one year. This light sentence can be paid through a fine of five thousand New Pesos (about $850.00). This fine has already been paid, and the Trustee won't have to go to jail." I'll come back to Alberto P's statement at the end of this reply. An anomaly in a document does not constitute a conspiracy, a lie or illegality. The claim of Wayne P deceptively portraying himself as having written the book is irresponsible. Fair-minded people can arrive at much different conclusions rather than echoing baseless charges. The legal (not dictionary) term "author" can, in many instances, be anyone who holds copyright ownership to a work whether they actually wrote it or not. The information below is from the Cornell University web site regarding sections of the US Code (Federal laws) applying to copyright ownership: Initial Ownership: Copyright in a work protected under this title vests initially in the author or authors of the work. The authors of a joint work are co-owners of copyright in the work. Works Made for Hire: In the case of a work made for hire, the employer or other person for whom the work was prepared is considered the author for purposes of this title, and, unless the parties have expressly agreed otherwise in a written instrument signed by them, owns all of the rights comprised in the copyright. Transfer of Ownership: (1) The ownership of a copyright may be transferred in whole or in part by any means of conveyance or by operation of law, and may be bequeathed by will or pass as personal property by the applicable laws of intestate succession. (2) Any of the exclusive rights comprised in a copyright, including any subdivision of any of the rights specified by section 106, may be transferred as provided by clause (1) and owned separately. The owner of any particular exclusive right is entitled, to the extent of that right, to all of the protection and remedies accorded to the copyright owner by this title. On April 22, 1940, Bill W and Hank P transferred ownership of all their interests in the book "Alcoholics Anonymous" to the Alcoholic Foundation. The transfer included Bill's initial copyright ownership filed in April 1939. The Alcoholic Foundation was later renamed to the "General Service Board of AA" and their subsidiary corporate publishing arm, initially known as "Works Publishing Inc," later became "AA Publishing Inc" and later still became "AA World Services (AAWS) Inc." They hold for safekeeping and manage AA's copyrights and trademarks. Given that the Big Book in question in Mexico, was the 3rd edition published in 1976 (5 years after Bill W's death) the revised story section (about 2/3 of the book) plus new preface and foreword likely put it into the category of "works made for hire" if specialists were hired to compile the new edition as is often done for publications projects. In any event, the book goes way beyond the so-called "first 164 pages" that Bill W is specifically identified with as the initial author. When a corporation holds copyright ownership, its chief (or a designated) officer typically acts in behalf of the corporation in legal matters requiring a signature or personal identity on a legal instrument. In April 1989 Wayne P became the General Manager of GSO. That also legally made him "President of AAWS, Inc." It occurred in the same year as the Mexican copyright paperwork of August 1989. In terms of putting a name down for the "author" whoever typed Wayne's name on the document could well have done so to reflect his capacity and authority as President and chief officer of AAWS (the owner of the copyright). This is probably more likely than unfairly claiming Wayne deceitfully portrayed himself as having written the book. Alberto P's statement above claims that Wayne's name appeared as "author of all [I repeat all] the literature of Alcoholics Anonymous, at the National Information Center of Copyrights of the SEP (Public Education Secretariat) in Mexico." My assumption is that Wayne's name continually appeared for all the literature because he was President and chief officer of AAWS, the legal copyright holder of all the literature being submitted for Mexican copyright protection. Arthur -----Original Message----- From: Mitchell K. Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2007 Subject: Re: AA in Mexico (Wayne Parks as author of Big Book) Very interesting reply. I did see a few remarks about LAWS and pretty much the so-called rule of law. I didn't however see anyone mention that the author of the Big Book as registered at the copyright office in Mexico is Wayne Parks. It appears that in order to get a valid copyright in Mexico there has to be a living author. Of course, Bill Wilson wasn't living when that book was copyrighted in Mexico. Since we are so interested in the law as Arthur wrote - "While it may be hard for some AA members to swallow, bodies of codified principles exist that take precedence over the Steps,Traditions and Concepts. They consist of > state and national laws and treaties having the effect of law" Is Wayne Parks the legitimate author of the Big Book or are some laws and principles such as truth exempt here? I am sure someone will write in with the copy of the actual document bearing Wayne's signature. Are we interested in THE truth or some truth or a selective truth. After all, there is no crime unless one gets caught. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4169. . . . . . . . . . . . One of AA''s 1st Women From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/12/2007 8:39:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII For Men Only? Anonymous AA Grapevine – June 1960 One of AA's first woman members describes her pioneering struggle to gain acceptance of her sex in what was exclusively a man's world of sobriety. WHEN I attended my first AA meeting on April 11, 1939 I was the only woman alcoholic there. And I might not have been there had there not been one before me whose story I had read in the manuscript of a book called "Alcoholics Anonymous." Some weeks before, my psychiatrist had handed me a red cardboard-covered document, saying flatly that he had about given up hope of being able to help me after nearly a year of intensive treatment in the sanitarium he headed. But, he added, he had just read something that might help, and he wanted me to read it. He said little more, except to remark that this group of men (the emphasis is mine) seemed to have discovered a way out of the same trouble I had -- drinking. I took the book in trembling hands and went back to my room with a wild surge of hope lifting me up the stairs three steps at a time. As I read, the hope swelled and sank again and again. My trouble had a name: alcoholism. It was music to my ears. Alcoholism was a disease. Shame, guilt and self-condemnation rolled away like heavy fog, letting light and air into my heart again. I could breathe; I could bear to live. Alcoholism was "an 'allergy' of the body coupled with an obsession of the mind"; there was no known way of reversing the sensitivity of the body to alcohol, therefore an alcoholic could never safely drink again. This was the first reason I had ever heard that made sense to me. I could accept it. I could face a life without drinking, because I had to; there was no choice -- my body wouldn't let me. It wasn't just a question of mental aberration after all; I wasn't insane, or hopelessly neurotic; I had a disease. And thousands of other people had it, too. I wasn't the only one; I wasn't so peculiar, so different, so alone beyond the pale. I had a disease! My mind made a song of hope out of those words. Then came the let-down. This handful of men had found an answer to the "obsession of the mind" that drove them to drink against their own will, against their own desire, against not only their better judgment but against their own good. That answer was God. My hope sank. This was not for me. I couldn't use this answer. I had lost God in my teens. I had outgrown this primitive notion. I was an intellectual, a worldly, widely-travelled, well-educated once-successful woman. A woman. My hope completely disappeared. This was a man's book, entirely about men, obviously written by and for men, and a particular kind of men at that -- religious men. Well, that was that. I wasn't religious, and I wasn't a man. I'd have to find my own way out after all. I was still alone. And so I argued with the doctor, day after day and week after week, about the God business. Patiently he let me get my arrogant, infantile arguments off my chest. Firmly he would send me back to "read some more," for I was creeping through the book, dragging my feet over each arguable phrase. He had quickly answered my complaint that this was a book for men only by saying simply, "What's so different about women suffering the same illness?" But this had seemed no more satisfactory an answer to me than his careful parrying of my arguments against God. I had consigned myself to outer darkness and there I would stay, alone with my ego and my pride. Until the day came; the day the crisis in my personal life did exactly what the book had said it would. It raised the bottom to where I precariously hung, and I fell right into God's hands. Gloriously, joyously, ecstatically surrendered to complete faith in a Power greater than myself. I was free. So free that I knew I could walk out my third-story window and keep right on walking. God supported me at a level I had never dreamed was possible, and there was no prison -- neither of my own making, nor of the wood and stone that made the sanitarium, nor of gravity itself -- that could contain me. I was free! A vestige of my old suspicions sent me running to the doctor. Was I now completely mad? If so, I liked it. Sanity was never like this; I felt wonderful, happy, radiant, bursting with love and delight. The grass had never been so green, the sky so blue, people so nice and so good. The world was a divinely beautiful place . . . . I was free. "Perhaps you are," the doctor said, "for I believe you have had an authentic spiritual experience. Hold on to it, and go back and read that book!" I did, and it seemed a different book. True, it was still obviously by and for men, but it held truth for me and I gobbled it up. For the first time, I read it through to the end. And there I found, among the personal stories, one entitled "A Woman's Story." Thank You, my newly found God. I might have known You would supply everything I needed. For a while it seemed the book held everything I needed. I was reluctant to meet the people. I was too busy revelling in a state of mind I had never known: a beatific state of pure delight in living. Yet I was really a little afraid -- of what these men would be like, of how they would accept me, a woman. Would one other woman be enough? Would she like me and accept me? Would she be there if I went to meet them? Would the reality of flesh and blood spoil my ecstatic dream? Was it a dream? Weeks passed and the good doctor took matters into his own hands; he made a date for me to meet one of these men and his wife, and to go with them to a meeting in Brooklyn. I was warmly received; first names were the rule, they told me, and Mrs. M. -- Sandy -- made me feel more than welcome. We had dinner and set off for Brooklyn, to Bill and Lois's brownstone house. The first floor seemed crowded as we entered. I saw many women among the crowd, but no one looked as if they had ever had a drink. It looked like any friendly gathering in any home, with far too many strangers for my taste. I flew upstairs to leave my coat and lingered there. Lois came up and put her arm around my shoulder. "We want you down with us," she said. "You are very welcome." And she looked as if she meant it. I think I have never seen such sheer lovingness shining out of a person -- it warmed and comforted me. Lois, a non-alcoholic wife, taught me about love. But that's another story. I was made welcome, and yet -- did I notice just a flicker of uncertainty? Just a slight wariness, a kind of disbelief on the part of these men that I could really be one of them? I did, for some of their questions revealed it. I was the youngest person there, by far. And I was a woman. I was fairly well-dressed, was currently an inmate of a rather expensive private sanitarium (they didn't know I was stony broke, was there on a "scholarship" for free), and was obviously from a "good" background -- well-brought-up, well-educated, and apparently meeting the specifications for that old-fashioned label "a lady." These things are not usually associated with drunken women, even in the minds of drunken men. This I knew from my own experience. So I identified myself, and found myself telling the naked truth about my drinking as I had never been able to do even with my doctor. And I noted the small intake of breath, the widening of eyes, the retreating but still dormant suspicion in some of my questioners. But for enough of them, I made the grade. I was accepted as an authentic alcoholic, and therefore a qualified participant in the meeting. There were a number of non-wives and friends present, for this night was an occasion: the first printed and bound copy of the book "Alcoholics Anonymous" was on display. I knew I was in when I was asked to sign the copy, along with the rest. And I further knew I was in when I found myself talking almost exclusively to the men who were alcoholics. They so surrounded me, and asked so many questions, that I knew I was indeed a rarity -- something of an occasion myself. As soon as I decently could, I asked about the woman whose story was in the book. She was much older than I, with grown children. Her name was Florence. No one seemed to know her except Bill and Lois, for she was in Washington where one of the earliest members of the group, a man named Fitz, was trying to get something started. He was having a very rough time, for all the prospects, including Florence, kept getting drunk. I breathed a prayer of thanks that she had stayed sober long enough to write her story -- for me. Bill said that she and Fitz would be coming to New York soon, and I could meet her. There were hopes, Bill said, that the one other group, in Akron, might have a woman member soon -- they were working on one. But here in New York I had to face the fact that I was, indeed, alone. Unique. I didn't like it. I had been feeling alone and unique for far too long. At least the men here were like me. Or were they? I began to understand the faint uncertainty, the wariness, the disbelief. I began to wonder myself if this program would work for women. I could deal with their questions about my rights to the title of alcoholic -- I had qualifications to match anyone's -- but only time could deal with their unexpressed doubts as to the ability of a woman to live their program successfully. And only time did the job. The first year was the hardest. I had plenty of prospects but few results. All that long hot summer I went into New York once a week to the meeting, hoping a woman might appear, find me, know that she was not alone and unique, and stay. Florence came, and left, without any real contact being established between us -- she did not seem to want to talk. I saw her only once again, sober, and then she died on a drunk. I found it difficult to convince the older members that I wasn't a freak, the only one of my kind, and to convince the newer men that there was such a thing as a woman alcoholic and that I was one. The newer men often found it difficult to conceal their disgust at the idea, and more than once I heard, "If there's one thing I can't stand, it's to see a woman drunk!" They just couldn't believe that women couldn't help it any more than they could. Most of the men were wonderful, and fully accepted me as one of themselves, but there remained a curious loneliness, nonetheless. Finally, in October, came Nona, whom I had met when I entered the sanitarium nearly two years before. She came in wholeheartedly, a quiet girl not wanting to be noticed, but she was there. In November I went with Bill and Lois to Akron and called on the woman (drunk in bed) for whom they had had hopes, but I was no more successful than the men had been. I went on to Chicago where Sylvia lived -- Sylvia who in October had gone to Cleveland to find AA in the home of an early member, and who had returned to Chicago full of sobriety and zeal to help others. Now there were three of us the country over -- but three is a crowd. Three can be neither alone nor unique, and we were all three too different to be the same kind of a freak! We used to hold long discussions as to why it was so difficult to help women, why they couldn't stay sober, couldn't make this program work. Some of the men thought it was because women were more dishonest than men, less direct. "Sneakier" was a word they used. I had to agree that this fitted most cases and that it made my self-appointed task of getting women into AA almost impossible. But I thought I understood the reasons for this -- and I still think they are the reasons that keep many women from success in AA. We have a double standard in our society. Many things that are acceptable, or at least forgivable, in men are not in women. Although the high pedestal on which women used to be enthroned is slowly descending to a more realistic level (and most women are duly grateful for this entry into more comfortable realms), it is doing so only in fits and starts, like a balky elevator. There are still areas of behavior that are forbidden to "nice" women, and excessive drinking is one of these. Many men who are themselves alcoholic and because of this have committed every sin the book, are inclined to look down their noses at women who have suffered the same mishaps, and for the same reason. They can't be "nice." Many non- alcoholic wives are inclined to be even more sure of this last statement, and not to want their husbands to associate with such questionable types. Women know this, of course, and the moment their drinking shows signs of being different, even slightly out of control, they instinctively go for cover, and bend all their effort to concealment. They become past masters at deception, at hiding their condition and the cause of it -- their bottles. Their opportunities are great if they are housewives, as many of them are. They are alone and in command of their environment for most of their waking hours. By the time their control is completely gone and they are discovered, they have built a pattern of deception that is nothing short of superb. Such a fantastic construction, built so painstakingly for so long, does not fall to pieces easily, and they have trained themselves so well to safeguard and protect it under all circumstances, even helpless drunkenness, that they often cannot relinquish this "protective coloration" even when they finally want to and know that they must if they are to live. The double standard has created another hazard for the woman seeking help in AA. Men are not supposed to care too much about "what the neighbors say" or "what will Joe think of you," but women most definitely are. Girls are brought up to consider other peoples' opinions of them, first and foremost. When a woman starts drinking too much, and then uncontrolledly, this becomes a prime bugaboo that haunts her sober moments. Unfortunately, the name Alcoholics Anonymous is frequently all mixed up in her already mixed-up thoughts with the total unacceptability of alcoholism, alcoholics, and everything to do with both, to most of the people she knows and whose opinions of her she has been taught to value above all else. How can she fly in the face of all she holds most dear, and pin this taboo label on herself? Better to hide in the bowels of the earth, or the bottom of a bottle. Finally, there are the misconceptions of an earlier more prudish day, when only "loose women" were supposed to drink; ergo, women who drank were "loose women," and if they drank badly, they were "lost women." The scarlet letter has hung like a terrible barrier in front of many women who desperately needed what AA had to offer them. And I may add that the scarlet letter has been pinned on many innocent alcoholics -- whose only sins (?) were those of alcoholism -- by self-righteous or fearful nonalcoholic women -- and men, too. Man's inhumanity to man might better read "women's inhumanity to women" particularly in the smaller communities of our enlightened country. These, I think, are some of the valid reasons why the growth of the number of women in AA was painfully slow at first, and even now is amazingly greater in the big cities than in even their own suburbs, let alone smaller towns. Yet growth there has been, and a commensurate change in attitude both within and outside of AA. For women have recovered and gone back to their own close little societies to talk about it, to teach them to know better, to let their own stories be known in the hope that they might reach into some other room, secluded and well-hidden as their own once was. Women who have embraced AA have found the God-given courage to face their whispering accusers, and to face them down; to hold on to their sobriety and to build from it a good life, open to the most critical inspection; to accept new values that do not give weight to "what the neighbors think -- or say"; and to rely on their own conscience in communion with their own God as they understand Him, for judgment of their worth. All this is not easy. I think it must be said that because of cultural and environmental patterns which are beyond her control, it is not yet the same for a woman to have alcoholism as it is for a man. It is much, much more difficult, and the chances of finding help and achieving recovery are undeniably less. Yet there has been improvement over the past twenty years, and I believe that the situation will become progressively better as alcoholism is more widely accepted for the disease that it is, and the unfair stigma gradually disappears. Public acceptance will one day bring about the cultural and environmental changes that are beginning to be evident. The double standard has no place in the realm of illness, and never did have. Once alcoholism is firmly esconced in that realm, much of the old prejudice against women alcoholics will die a natural death. But it is a long, slow process. Five years after I came into AA, in the spring of 1944, the several large AA groups in Pittsburgh asked me down to speak at a public meeting. They told me outright that they wanted to show Pittsburgh that there was such a thing as a woman alcoholic, and that she could recover. Still, it was many months after that before they got their first woman member. Groups have written me from all over the country to say that after four and five years of intense activity and growth, they had yet to have a woman member; I have made countless trips and many speeches to show myself and give evidence of the possibility. This was a major reason why I temporarily gave up my doubly precious anonymity (being a woman and therefore vulnerable to scarlet letters and a host of other unpleasant things) when I entered public work in this field. No one was ever happier to resume that protective cloak after two years of both veiled and crass remarks and looks. It takes great faith and plenty of sheer strength to be an avowed woman alcoholic. I am both humbled and proud of my sex as I see the growing numbers who dare -- for the sake of all those others still undeclared, still suffering the tortures of the damned, alone. Things move. During the late 1940s I had many letters from lone woman members, seeking comfort, company, and advice on how to find and bring in others. Then in the 1950s I began to be asked to come and speak at luncheons and dinners of just AA women. I thought the corner had been turned, that no one could ever again imagine AA was "for men only." Imagine my shock and horror when in December 1959, twenty years and eight months after my solo landing in AA, a woman member in a great mid- western city I was visiting told me of several AA groups in the city who would not receive women as members -- stated flatly that they did not want women in their groups. Several men with us corroborated her story, adding, before I could catch my breath, that it didn't matter so much in a big city like theirs where there were plenty of other groups a woman could go to, but what bothered them was the fact that this was true in many small cities and towns where there was only one group, so that in effect this meant denying AA to women alcoholics. I could hardly believe my ears, but the people who told me this were not erratic, newly sober alcoholics, but longtime members who know their area well and traverse it frequently. If this is so, in the mid-west, it may very well be so in many parts of our vast country, especially in sparsely settled areas with only small towns. There obviously remains much to be done. After twenty years, women coming into AA are still pioneers. Those who make statistical studies claim that there is only one woman alcoholic for every five-and-a-half men. The records of public outpatient clinics seem to bear out this figure. But there are many physicians in private practice, where a confidence is considered as sacred as in the confessional, who state categorically the women alcoholics outnumber the men in their practice. Certainly in the big cities, one often finds the women outnumbering the men at closed meetings. Is it just that women alcoholics more readily find their way to the anonymity of the big cities? Or are there more of us than even we think? Once again, only time will tell us. But I hope and pray it won't have to be another twenty years for all those out there alone. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4170. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: From Akron to the Internet From: Mary Latowski . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/8/2007 8:54:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Bill, this is very interesting but I was wondering if you think Loners International and World Hello might also be included? Mary Pat South Bend On 3/7/07, Bill Lash wrote: > > FROM AKRON to the INTERNET > A time line of A.A. communication > The ways A.A's carry the message have changed over the years. The message > hasn't. > > 1935: Bill W. and Dr. Bob meet face to face in Akron. > 1939: The Big Book is published, carrying the message in print. > 1939: First public service message about the Big Book appears in a New > York > Times ad, "Have You an Alcoholic Problem?" > 1941: NBC begins a 13-part syndicated radio program called Is Alcohol a > Problem in Your Home? > 1941: Saturday Evening Post publishes Jack Alexander's article about AA. > 1944: The AA Grapevine begins monthly publication as AA's meeting in > print. > 1945: Paramount Pictures releases the movie The Lost Weekend, based on the > novel by Charles Jackson. > 1946: Marty Mann explains alcoholism and AA on the radio show We The > People. > 1947: First transatlantic telephone call is received by The Alcoholic > Foundation from an Army hospital in Germany. > 1948: An AA member explains principles of the program on Hi, Jinx, a > morning > radio show on WNBC. > 1949: CBS radio broadcasts a 10 episode drama about an alcoholic who finds > AA. GSO is deluged with inquiries. > 1953: HAAM, an international fellowship of AA ham radio operators, is > established. > 1953: Art Linkletter interviews a masked woman member of AA on his TV > show. > 1954: The Grapevine asks for the signals of amateur radio operators who > would like to communicate via the airwaves. > 1956: An all-AA TV program, Mr. Hope, an actual closed meeting of masked > AA > members, debuts in Detroit. AA HQ in Detroit is besieged by telephone > calls > and letters from people wanting more information. > 1956: Bill W. and Eve M. from general service are anonymous guests on the > popular radio show Martha Deane on WOR. > 1960: Broadcast of a radio show called Alcoholism - The Problem and the > Hope, featuring Marty Mann and a GSO staff member. > 1962: The Betty Furness radio program features a show on international AA. > 1963: The movie Days of Wine and Roses is previewed by GSO staffers before > its release. > l963: WNBC begins broadcasting an AA radio program called Ask an > Alcoholic. > 1966: AA creates a 60-second TV spot for distribution by public > information > committees. > 1966: Five groups in two states hold the first telephone conference-call > meeting. > 1970: KUAT in Tucson, AZ, launches AA-of-the-Air, a radio show for > homebound > AAs. > 1973: David Suskind interviews 5 women AAs on his TV show. > 1976: Members of AA, Al-Anon, and Alateen are interviewed on the John > Gentry > Radio Show on WGCH in Greenwich, CT. > 1979: The 29th General Service Conference views and approves Alcoholics > Anonymous - An Inside View, a 28-minute color film produced by AA. > 1980s: First AA bulletin boards, online meetings, and chat rooms appear. > 1986: Q-Link, one of the first online AA groups, begins meeting, growing > to > 200 members nationwide in two years. > 1988: GSO begins compiling a list of online AA groups. > 1989: ABC-TV broadcasts My Name is Bill W. 1990s: TDD (text telephone) > technology helps hard-of-hearing AAs talk with other AAs. > 1990: Kansas Area public information establishes AA Message of the Day, a > telephone service featuring daily readings from the "Twelve and Twelve." > 1990: Connecticut's public radio show, Open Air New England, puts open AA > meetings on the air. > 1992: Thirteen 1-hour AA meetings airing 3 times a week are broadcast on > cable TV stations in Portland, OR. > 1995: Online Intergroup of Alcoholics Anonymous (OIAA) is established. > 2002: The Queensland Young People in AA Convention is netcast worldwide > from > Australia. > 2002: Online AA reps meet, hoping to establish a service conference for AA > in cyberspace. > > From the AA Grapevine with addition: > 2003-2004: Today there are literally thousands of Cyberspace Recovery > sites > and domains, AA chats, bulletin boards and meetings, a number of which are > live voice meetings regularly scheduled 24 hours around the clock, and in > many languages and countries other than the US. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4171. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: "Bill W. and Dr. Bob" the play From: Stephen Gentile . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/10/2007 12:26:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Many times throughout the show Dr.Bob callled out to Bill with the name "Abercrombie." Was this a nick name of Bill's or was this plain garble? I first saw a prelude in Akron last year at Founders Day weekend by the Gatehouse. They were advertising its opening coming up this year. On opening night Coffee was served in the aisles. On the 7th it was stopped permanently. I was at the show and thought it was a well- rounded little show with a good reflection of AA history with slight overacting. I doubt if any non-AA would appreciate this performance or be able to give a favorable review. Any AA would find it warming. Most were talking favorably after. Opinion of course. Steve G in NJ - - - - Note from the moderator: Dr. Bob liked to give people strange nicknames. He sometimes called James D. (J. D.) Holmes by that nickname "Abercrombie." J. D. said he was the tenth person to get sober in A.A. -- counting Bill W. and Dr. Bob as A.A. Number One and Number Two. J. D. was the founder of the first A.A. group in Indiana http://hindsfoot.org/nhome.html http://hindsfoot.org/nfirst.html In his memoirs, J. D. says (of Dr. Bob): "He was great on slang. He used to call me 'Abercrombie.' Why, I don't know. He'd call up and say, 'Bring your frail over,' meaning my wife. He had a peculiar vocabulary, but a wonderful one. He was an educated man, but some of his slang you didn't hear the ordinary person use." I've heard that Dr. Bob sometimes called Bill W. "Willy." But did he ever call him "Abercrombie"? What do our experts in the group say on that? Glenn C., South Bend IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4172. . . . . . . . . . . . Proxy battle in Akron From: Gallery Photography . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/10/2007 2:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Do any of you know more details about the Proxy battle Bill W. lost, in Akron, just prior to meeting Doctor Bob? I've also looked up information on just what a proxy battle is. I think I understand but it would help if I had more specific information on how and what the fight is about. If I understand it correctly, Bill was like some "middle man" fighting between company and stockholders as a substitute for them fighting each other directly. Well, who was he fighting and what was he fighting for? Hope you can help me understand this better. Thanks. Rotax Steve IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4173. . . . . . . . . . . . Did Ebby make amends to Bill W.? From: Gallery Photography . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/10/2007 2:22:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Is there any historical information of amends made to Bill W. from Ebby T.? If so, do any of you have a brief summary or can direct me to any books? (particularly page numbers) Thanks. Rotax Steve Nangi namaj perez IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4174. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA history in Great Britain From: ROGER WHEATLEY . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/12/2007 7:14:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The GB GSO has recently moved to new space at 10 Toft Green, York, England. There is an abundance of archives and a growing interest in that country. They will soon be on display in a room at the new office space for visitors to view similar to the GSO archives in New York. Over the past few years, parts of these archives have been displayed throughout the countries of England, Scotland, and Wales in Archives "Road Shows". The growing interest in archive work led to last years General Service Conference approving a pamphlet on the subject and this years conference will consider the draft of a guideline for archivists. Roger W. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4175. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Proxy battle in Akron From: John Lee . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/13/2007 3:12:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII No. Bill was representing a group of stockholders who wanted to take over management of the Akron company. In a proxy fight an individual obtains "proxies," a document which constitutes legal permission to vote for the stockholder who supplied the proxy. A prospective management group contacts stockholders with large voting blocks of stock, and asks those stockholders for their proxies. Stockholders elect the board of directors for a corporation. The board of directors selects the officers of the company, such as president, vice-president, treasurer. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4176. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Richard Nixon, Tom Pike, and the Hughes Act From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/12/2007 4:23:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII To add to the commentary on prohibition: The 18th amendment to the US Constitution, prohibiting alcohol, was ratified on January 16, 1919. On October 28 of that year, Congress passed the Volstead (or National Prohibition) Act over President Wilson’s veto. Terms such as “bootlegger” “speakeasy” and “bathtub gin” entered the national vocabulary. As a physician, Dr Bob could obtain distilled alcohol "for medicinal purposes" with virtually no effort. Prior to repealing the 18th amendment, beer was legalized and Dr. Bob writes about it ("the beer experiment") in his story. Bill also wrote in his story about the concoctions he made in his home ("Bathtub gin, two bottles a day, and often three, got to be routine"). On December 5, 1933, the 21st amendment to the US Constitution was ratified repealing the 18th amendment. The almost decade and a half prohibition of alcohol was widely disregarded and yielded fortunes for organized crime in bootlegging and smuggling. Both Bill W and Dr Bob did some of the worst of their drinking at a time when alcohol was illegal in the US. Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Glenn Chesnut Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 12:45 PM To: AAHistoryLovers group Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Richard Nixon, Tom Pike, and the Hughes Act The two most important pieces of legislation about alcoholism in the United States were the Prohibition Amendment and the Hughes Act. The first ended up being widely regarded as a failure.* The second was not only a success, it still lies at the base of some of the most effective help being given to American alcoholics even today, over thirty-five years later. Most modern American alcoholism treatment facilities, along with the kind of alcoholism counselors whom they use and sometimes a significant part of their funding, are based on the provisions of the Hughes Act. The Hughes Act was put on the legislative agenda in the U.S. Congress by Senator Harold Hughes from Iowa, who had served a series of terms as governor of Iowa before being elected to the U.S. Senate, in spite of admitting openly that he was a recovered alcoholic. Following the precedent set by Mrs. Marty Mann, he and Tom Pike and other major political figures freely acknowledged their alcoholism in public, but made no mention of their membership in A.A. except in private. In private of course, we can see Tom Pike not only mentioning his A.A. membership to President Nixon, but preaching the twelve steps to the president in this fascinating letter that Bill Lash has found. Of special interest to us in this group: Nancy Olson, the founder of the AAHistoryLovers, was another of the key political figures during the period when the Hughes Act was being passed and implemented (1970-1980). She was the senatorial aide whom Senator Hughes assigned to do whatever had to been done in order to get the legislation passed. On many occasions, Nancy also played a key role in coordinating the efforts of the many other A.A. members in Washington D.C. and elsewhere who were involved in gaining passage of the bill. President Nixon was one of the Washington figures who opposed the Hughes Act. For a long time after its passage, he refused to sign it, which would have been the equivalent of vetoing it. Tom Pike, whom Nixon regarded as a good friend and staunch supporter, was one of the influential A.A. people who kept up the pressure on Nixon in their private contacts with him until he finally grudgingly put his signature on the bill. Part of the problem was that Hughes and some of his supporters were Democrats. Pike, as a devoted Republican, was able to add his voice in support of the Hughes Act and raise the issue above the partisan level. For a full account of the enactment and implementation of the Hughes Act, see Nancy Olson, With a Lot of Help from Our Friends: The Politics of Alcoholism. http://hindsfoot.org/kNO1.html http://hindsfoot.org/kNO2.html http://hindsfoot.org/kNO3.html ______________________________ *During the Prohibition Era, the number of people in the United States who died of cirrhosis of the liver and other strongly alcohol related diseases underwent a slight but nevertheless significant and measurable decline. On that ground, it could be regarded as a public health success. The two problems were that (1) it did nothing effective to prevent true hardcore chronic alcoholics from obtaining alcohol. It was not a solution at all to the problem of alcoholism. Real alcoholics obtained easily available illegal alcohol or brewed or fermented their own alcoholic beverages. And (2) the rise of criminal associations for importing or making illegal alcohol produced murder, violence, and lawbreaking on a scale which the government could not deal with effectively. Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4177. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Proxy battle in Akron From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/13/2007 7:57:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The proxy battle Bill lost in Akron was for control of National Rubber Machinery (NRM), a small manufacturer of machine tools for the tire industry. He lost out to a group headed by a fellow named Nils Florman, who was soon ousted from the company after a few years. Either then or a short time later, a very able man named Paul Frank took over the company and ran it successfully for about 25 years. He was highly regarded in Akron and was also an influential member of St. Paul's Episcopal Church, which was pastored by Rev. Walter Tunks (the man Bill called seeking contact with an alcoholic). I interviewed Mr. Frank at his beautiful home in 1980. He was 86 at the time. NRM had been made up of four companies brought together in 1928. But they had never been able to realize the benefits of consolidation and the company was in serious trouble by 1935, which made it a candidate for a takeover. At that time, there were 113,000 shares of NRM stock outstanding, and it had a market value of about $1 per share. Thus the company could have been acquired for $113,000, but with the price so depressed, shareholders were unwilling to sell. They were interested in seeing a management change, however, and Florman's group evidently made a better case than Bill and his partners. Had Bill succeeded in the fight and been named president of the company, he would have been paid a salary of about $14,000 per year---a handsome income in 1935. I doubt that he would have been thinking about calling on another alcoholic while facing the problems of running a business. (My personal opinion is that Bill could have run NRM very well.) T. Henry Williams, who with his wife Clarace hosted the first group of alcoholics in Akron, lost his job with NRM as a result of the proxy battle. He later became a principal in the McNeil company, which was an NRM competitor in manufacturing tire processing machines. Both NRM and McNeil went through many changes, but today they are joined as one company! And that completes today's lesson about the tire manufacturing business and its effect on AA's origins. Mel Barger Mel ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Mel Barger melb@accesstoledo.com (melb at accesstoledo.com) ----- Original Message ----- From: Gallery Photography To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 3:17 PM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Proxy battle in Akron Do any of you know more details about the Proxy battle Bill W. lost, in Akron, just prior to meeting Doctor Bob? I've also looked up information on just what a proxy battle is. I think I understand but it would help if I had more specific information on how and what the fight is about. If I understand it correctly, Bill was like some "middle man" fighting between company and stockholders as a substitute for them fighting each other directly. Well, who was he fighting and what was he fighting for? Hope you can help me understand this better. Thanks. Rotax Steve [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4178. . . . . . . . . . . . AA History Buffs From: spebsqsa@att.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/16/2007 4:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII It is worth reminding those who read AA History Lovers: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aahistorylovers/ that the original AA History Buffs forum is available: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aahistorybuffs/ Nancy Olson moderated it from 2000 through 2002. The move from AAHstoryBuffs to AAHistoryLovers was necessary because a technical glitch made it impossible to add new members to the original Yahoo! group. Nancy copied the significant posts (but not all of the discussions) from Buffs into Lovers when she started it as a replacement. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4179. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Did Ebby make amends to Bill W.? From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/13/2007 8:26:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Is there any information as to why Ebby needed to make amends to Bill? > Is there any historical information of amends > made to Bill W. from Ebby T.? > > If so, do any of you have a brief summary or > can direct me to any books? (particularly page > numbers) > > Thanks. > > Rotax Steve > Nangi namaj perez > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4180. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Prohibition From: John Lee . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/15/2007 10:30:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Alcohol and drinking were never "illegal" under federal law. The purchase or use of intoxicating liquors was never proscribed by the 18th Amendment or Volstead Act. Those laws prohibited the manufacture, transportation or sale of intoxicating liquors. Bob and Bill could drink and buy liquor without fear of legal penalties during the Prohibition period. When you see old movies of a "raid" by Treasury agents, you won't see the agents arresting the drinkers. They just close the joint and impound the hootch. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4181. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Share magazine (British counterpart to Grapevine) From: Frank E. Nyikos . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/14/2007 3:32:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Would be interested in ordering Share magazine, but living in a small rural community, do not have access to convert dollars so as to send pounds - Would appreciate further info and/or email address to find out how this could be done. "Frank E. Nyikos" (fenyikos at hoosierlink.net) ----- Original Message ----- From: "jenny andrews" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 5:35 AM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: AA history in Great Britain > Share magazine - the British counterpart of > Grapevine - has produced a book called Share > and Share Alike to mark the 60th anniversary > of AA's foundation in Britain (England, > Scotland and Wales) on 31 March 1947. It > contains stories from each of the past six > decades of Share and its predecessor the AA > Newsletter. The book also includes information > about the British Fellowship's history. The > price is £4.75 sterling (inc p+p), checks > etc. payable to 'General Service Office'. > > Send orders to: > > Share and Share Alike, > PO Box 1, 10 Toft Green, > York YO1 7NJ UK. > > Laurie A., > Editor, Share > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4182. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Abercrombie and "Bill W. and Dr. Bob" the play From: Bob . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/13/2007 4:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Abercrombie and Fitch was a big "casual luxury" clothing retailer in the 1930's, .... very common to see folks on the golf greens wearing it so it might have been a moniker insinuating someone was a social climber (predate yuppie), but in a fun way, on their way up the sobriety social scale.......a joking reminder not to forget where they came from...... Rob - - - - Stephen Gentile wrote: Many times throughout the show Dr.Bob callled out to Bill with the name "Abercrombie." Was this a nick name of Bill's or was this plain garble? Steve G in NJ - - - - Note from the moderator: Dr. Bob liked to give people strange nicknames. He sometimes called James D. (J. D.) Holmes by that nickname "Abercrombie." J. D. said he was the tenth person to get sober in A.A. -- counting Bill W. and Dr. Bob as A.A. Number One and Number Two. J. D. was the founder of the first A.A. group in Indiana http://hindsfoot.org/nhome.html http://hindsfoot.org/nfirst.html In his memoirs, J. D. says (of Dr. Bob): "He was great on slang. He used to call me 'Abercrombie.' Why, I don't know. He'd call up and say, 'Bring your frail over,' meaning my wife. He had a peculiar vocabulary, but a wonderful one. He was an educated man, but some of his slang you didn't hear the ordinary person use." I've heard that Dr. Bob sometimes called Bill W. "Willy." But did he ever call him "Abercrombie"? What do our experts in the group say on that? Glenn C., South Bend IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4183. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Prohibition From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/18/2007 12:34:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi John I beg to differ with your interpretation of the Volstead or National Prohibition Act - it did in fact include provisions limiting the alcohol content of beverages and private possession and consumption. As with most federal law there were also exceptions defined but they were not open ended. Beverages with an alcohol content of 0.5% or more were explicitly illegal. Also, while there were some provisions for allowable possession and use of alcohol in one's home, it did not include alcoholic beverages that were illegally manufactured. There were no restrictions on alcohol used for fuel, medicinal purposes and sacramental usage in religious services. Needless to say prescriptions for alcohol went through the roof and people seemed to have taken a mighty sharp turn at becoming awfully religious in their use of sacramental wine (grin). Movies, due to their poetic license and time limitations, are very unreliable in demon- strating actual facts and conditions. As an example, the movie "The Untouchables" starring Kevin Kostner (and to some degree the TV series) would have you believe that Elliot Ness was responsible for the indictment and conviction of Al Capone and witnessed the death of his underboss Frank Nitti. None of that is true. The IRS nailed Al Capone for tax evasion and he was also charged with about 5,000 violations of the Volstead Act. Frank Nitti committed suicide about 5 or 6 years after Capone's imprisonment rather than go to prison himself. Ness' role is actually much exaggerated but it makes for a good story. To some degree I believe you are juxtaposing the inability (and unwillingness) to enforce the law as if the law itself allowed certain things to be legal that it actually made illegal. The Volstead Act was supposed to have been heavily enforced in the South and West but very sparingly enforced in the North and East of the US. In many locations and communi- ties it was not enforced at all and looked upon with scorn. For the enforcement that was done, court dockets became so overloaded with criminal cases that it too had the effect of limiting enforcement. Also public intoxication arrests skyrocketed during prohibition further impacting the courts and overwhelming them. In any event, the grand experiment was an unmitigated failure. Supposedly per capita alcohol consumption actually increased over the duration of the Volstead Act until repeal of the 18th amendment when it declined (go figure). Cheers Arthur - - - - John Lee (johnlawlee at yahoo.com) wrote: Alcohol and drinking were never "illegal" under federal law. The purchase or use of intoxicating liquors was never proscribed by the 18th Amendment or Volstead Act. Those laws prohibited the manufacture, transportation or sale of intoxicating liquors. Bob and Bill could drink and buy liquor without fear of legal penalties during the Prohibition period. When you see old movies of a "raid" by Treasury agents, you won't see the agents arresting the drinkers. They just close the joint and impound the hootch. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4184. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Abercrombie and "Bill W. and Dr. Bob" the play From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/17/2007 12:03:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Abercrombie would be a common word. In the west there is a city named after a fort named after an American Colonel on the Red River. As a doctor, Dr Bob would have had to be aware of a foreign doctor known on for his work on major diseases. On the web, one can see more references to the name in the area where he grew up and went to school. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4185. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Share magazine (British counterpart to Grapevine) From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/17/2007 3:45:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Laurie A., David J., and Shakey Mike: ordering information for Share From: (jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com) Hi Frank, Will forward your message to our GSO in York, UK. If you get no reply you can contact them at: aashare@btconnect.com (aashare at btconnect.com) Or - telephone (UK) 01904 644026. Thanks for your interst and good hunting! Laurie A. - - - - From: Frank E. Nyikos, Milford, Indiana, USA (fenyikos at hoosierlink.net) >Would be interested in ordering Share magazine, >but living in a small rural community, do >not have access to convert dollars so as to >send pounds - Would appreciate further info >and/or email address to find out how this >could be done. - - - - From: "David Jones" (davidjones at davidjones3.plus.com) The email address for Share magazine is: aashare@btconnect.com (aashare at btconnect.com) Hopefully, they will bee able to help you. The subscription rate is £12 p.a for UK; £22.50 p.a. for Europe; and £35 p.a international airmail. God bless Dave - - - - From: Shakey1aa@aol.com (Shakey1aa at aol.com) Shakey here - to update this ... I contacted Share and was given the following information in reference to their magazine. it may also hold true for the book. I will pass on further information as it becomes available. >Hi Mike >Thank you for your interest in subscribing >to Share. To order 2 copies per month for >1 year is 135.513 USD (£70.00) or 2 copies >for 6 months 67.736 USD (£35.00). If it >is easier this can be paid direct into our >bank, I will send you the details if you >require them. >Best wishes >Chris Yis, Shakey Mike Going to 11th NAW in Phoenix Sept 6-9,2007. Plan now to make it. Hope to see you all there. - - - - FROM THE MODERATOR: Here is the information given online by the British AA organization. They give a cost of one pound per issue if you buy it one issue at a time. It seems to come out twice a month, so that would be 24 pounds per year bought in the U.K. The price when sent by international airmail is much steeper, because of postage. That seems to be 35 British pounds for a six month's subscription (12 issues), and 70 British pounds for a year's subscription. That would be about 2.92 British pounds per issue. It's about two U.S. dollars to the pound, which roughly doubles the cost in dollars. At today's conversion rate, that would be 67.95 U.S. dollars for six months and 135.87 U.S. dollars for a year's subscription. http://www.alcoholics-anonymous.org.uk/geninfo/11literature.shtml http://www.alcoholics-anonymous.org.uk/geninfo/share.shtml AA Share Magazine SHARE is the official magazine of Alcoholics Anonymous in England and Wales. Its 32 pages are a source of sober views and ideas on the world-wide Fellowship and its programme of recovery from alcoholism. It serves as a meeting between meetings for newcomers to AA, helping them to both identify with others and learn more about the Fellowship. SHARE also aims to assist experienced members in maintaining and improving the quality of their lives in sobriety. All content is written by AA members and is divided into articles reflecting general experience, strength and hope; those that trace the roots, early days and fundamental principles of AA; and those submitted in response to the advertised monthly theme, e.g. The Telephone Lifeline or My Best Day Sober. A 300-word editorial usually dwells on the theme and there are regular features like Letters Pages, Diary of a Recovering Alcoholic and SHAREisms... a collection of homilies and insights that reflect the hard-edged wisdom available around 'The Rooms' (meetings). No poetry or obituaries are published. SHARE is put together by an Editor and Production Editor taking their turn at Fellowship service. The production disk is laid out and illustrated professionally. Both report to a London monthly meeting of the Editorial Team who advise, support and monitor guidelines. The final decision on published material rests with the Editor, who is appointed on a four-year term by the General Service Board of AA. The 4-page glossy centrefold -- the cover too has access to full colour -- serves as a pull-out information guide on AA groups and events. It is assembled by AA's paid staff at the York General Service Office, which also logs and despatches contributions to the Editor and three advisory Readers; types up the selected content and distributes the magazine to groups and individual readers. GSO organises subscriptions, which are paid in advance. SHARE costs £1 and circulation is around 4,800. This is A.A. General Service Conference- approved literature Prepared by General Service Office of Alcoholics Anonymous IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4186. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Re: Proxy battle in Akron From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/14/2007 12:58:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII SOURCE REFERENCES: AACOA--AA Comes of Age AGAA--The Akron Genesis of Alcoholics Anonymous, by Dick B BW-RT--Bill W by Robert Thompson BW-FH--Bill W by Francis Hartigan CH--Children of the Healer, by Christine Brewer DBGO--Dr Bob and the Good Old-timers GB--Getting Better Inside Alcoholics Anonymous by Nan Robertson NG--Not God, by Ernest Kurtz NW--New Wine, by Mel B PIO--Pass It On, AAWS RAA--The Roots of Alcoholics Anonymous, by Bill Pittman 1909: The Akron Rubber Mold and Machine Co was founded. It reorganized later, in 1928, as the National Rubber Machinery Co. In 1935, it became the center of a proxy fight that brought Bill W to Akron, OH. (BW-RT 211-212, CH 4, NG 26, PIO 134, RAA 142) 1915: T Henry Williams went to Akron, OH to work as Chief Engineer for the National Rubber Machinery Co. (PIO 145) 1935 April, Bill W returned to Wall St and was introduced to Howard Tompkins of the firm Baer and Co. Tompkins was involved in a proxy fight to take over control of the National Rubber Machinery Co based in Akron, OH. (BW-RT 211, NG 26, BW-FH 74, PIO 133-134, GB 33) May, Bill W went to Akron but the proxy fight was quickly lost. He remained behind at the Mayflower Hotel very discouraged. (BW-RT 212, PIO 134-135) =========== [after Bill and Bob met] =========== June, Bill and Dr Bob went to Oxford Group meetings on Wednesday nights at the home of T Henry and Clarace Williams. T Henry lost his job due to the proxy fight that brought Bill to Akron. (AACOA 141, NW 68-69, 73, DBGO 70-71, 99-102, PIO 145-147, AGAA 186, NG 317) Favored Scripture readings at meetings were The Sermon on the Mount, First Corinthians Chapter 13 and the Book of James. (AAGA 193, 208-209, 253) (GTBT 95-96 says that meetings were held at Dr Bob's house and moved to the Williams' house in late 1936 or early 1937) In other sources I've read, Bill also had dreams of possibly becoming the chief executive of the company targeted for takeover. Cheers Arthur --Original Message-- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Lee Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 2:12 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Proxy battle in Akron No. Bill was representing a group of stockholders who wanted to take over management of the Akron company. In a proxy fight an individual obtains "proxies," a document which constitutes legal permission to vote for the stockholder who supplied the proxy. A prospective management group contacts stockholders with large voting blocks of stock, and asks those stockholders for their proxies. Stockholders elect the board of directors for a corporation. The board of directors selects the officers of the company, such as president, vice-president, treasurer. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4187. . . . . . . . . . . . Dates - Jung and Hazard corrected From: robin_foote . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/19/2007 10:39:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Bluhm, Amy Colwell. Verification of C. G. Jung's Analysis of Rowland Hazard and the History of Alcoholics Anonymous. History of Psychology. 2006 Nov Vol 9(4) 313-324. From: Alcohol Self-help News < http://alcoholselfhelpnews.wordpress.com/2007/03/15/verification-of-c-g-jung s-an\ alysis-of-rowland-hazard-and-the-history-of-alcoholics-anonymous/ [2]> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4188. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dates - Jung and Hazard corrected From: james.bliss@comcast.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/21/2007 1:22:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Not sure why the link below was posted, but a direct link to the information rather than the below link to the copy is: http://content.apa.org/journals/hop/9/4/313 ---- Original message ---- From: "robin_foote" > Bluhm, Amy Colwell. Verification of C. G. > Jung's Analysis of Rowland Hazard and the > History of Alcoholics Anonymous. History of > Psychology. 2006 Nov Vol 9(4) 313-324. > > http://alcoholselfhelpnews.wordpress.com/2007/03/15/verification-of-c-g-jung s-an\ alysis-of-rowland-hazard-and-the-history-of-alcoholics-anonymous/ [2] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4189. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dates - Jung and Hazard corrected From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/21/2007 2:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Richard M. Dubiel, The Road to Fellowship: The Role of the Emmanuel Movement and the Jacoby Club in the Development of Alcoholics Anonymous (2004). http://hindsfoot.org/kDub1.html http://hindsfoot.org/kDub2.html Dubiel showed in this book, that although A.A. tradition said that Hazard was a patient of the Swiss psychiatrist Carl Jung for a year in 1931, he could have spent two months with Jung at most during the course of that year, and even that would have been difficult, based on his study of the Hazard family papers. But in the period immediately following the publication of this book, two other researchers, Amy Colwell Bluhm, Ph.D., and Cora Finch, working independently, established that Rowland actually arrived in Zurich in May 1926 (five years earlier than the traditional A.A. date). See Bluhm's article "Verification of C. G. Jung’s analysis of Rowland Hazard and the history of Alcoholics Anonymous" in the American Psychological Association's journal History of Psychology in November 2006 and Cora Finch's long account of Rowland Hazard's life and struggles with alcoholism at http://www.stellarfire.org/ Other than the re-dating however, Bluhm's and Finch's work corroborated the A.A. tradition that Rowland Hazard was Carl Jung's patient for a considerable length of time, and the two of them discovered a good deal of detail about Rowland's relationship with Jung and the general background. Jung ended up telling Rowland that he had never seen alcoholics of his type recover until they became willing to commit themselves to the spiritual life. Since Rowland was a typical alcoholic, however, it took him seven more years of denial and misery -- as he continued to refuse to take Jung's prescription seriously -- before he met Courtenay Baylor from the Emmanuel Movement and began seeking a spiritual solution to his alcoholism. Dubiel's book shows how Hazard had to be hospitalized for his alcoholism in February and March of 1932, and then from January 1933 to October 1934 was again in bad shape and unable to carry on his business activities. But then he explains how Courtenay Baylor became Rowland Hazard's therapist in 1933, and continued to work with him through 1934. It was under the influence of Baylor's Emmanuel Movement therapy (with its combination of spirituality and simple lay therapy) that Hazard actually began to recover. Hazard was also attending Oxford Group meetings, but his family was paying Baylor to be his regular therapist. In August 1934, of course, Hazard helped rescue Ebby Thacher from being committed to Brattleboro, and three months later, in November 1934, Ebby visited Bill Wilson in his kitchen, in the famous scene recorded in the first chapter of the Big Book. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4190. . . . . . . . . . . . Henrietta Seiberling''s grave From: Bob S. . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/21/2007 4:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII An archivist friend of mine, who lives in southern Indiana, would like to learn where Henrietta Seiberling is buried. Best information leads me to believe that her plot is in Kentucky and that her gravestone is inscribed "Let go and let God." I would much appreciate this information - thanks! Bob S. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4191. . . . . . . . . . . . Charles B. Towns (1 of 2) From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/22/2007 8:45:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Charles B. Towns, Ph.D. In 1917, Charles B. Towns, Ph.D., who had founded a Manhattan hospital at the turn of the century as a "drying-out” facility, wrote a groundbreaking article for The Modern Hospital magazine in which he asserted, "There is no such thing as 'curing' a case of alcoholism. There is nothing on earth you can do to prevent any human being from taking up the use of alcohol again if he wants to." Bill Wilson, the founder of Alcoholics Anonymous started his recovery at that hospital. When the time came in 1938 to finance the writing of the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous and the selling of shares in Works Publishing Co., Dr. "Silky" Silkworth, Bill's physician and a friend of A.A., helped to convert Dr. Towns into a great A.A. enthusiast and had encouraged him to loan $2,000 toward preparation of the book, a sum that was increased to $4,000 and later paid back in full. But he would not buy stock, he wanted a note for security! Dr. Towns also approached Fulton Oursler, then editor of Liberty magazine, who commissioned feature writer Morris Markey to write the article "Alcoholics and God" for the September 1939 issue, giving A.A. its first national publicity. As we know, Ebby Thacher, sober in the Oxford Group 2 months, and living at Calvary Mission run by Rev. Sam Shoemaker, had visited with Bill shortly after Armistice Day 1934. Bill Wilson then made his first visit to Calvary Mission on or about December 7, 1934, just days before his last admittance to Towns Hospital, December 11, 1934. This could very well account for the influence on Bill’s fascination with the conversion experience whether he realized it or not. He had researched much religious material as well as Richard Peabody’s "Common Sense Of Drinking," and perhaps the works of Charles B. Towns, although it is not well known that Charles Towns wrote three important books on alcoholism: "Habits That Handicap" (1915), "Reclaiming The Drinker"(1931), and "Alcohol And Drug Sickness"(1934). Bill, with his inquiring mind, may well have read them in his previous trips to Towns Hospital. Towns was very emphatic about never talking down to an alcoholic, or scolding a man that you are trying to help. (12 Steppers and Al-Anons take note.) There are other articles by or about Towns listed below, and the text of two of them follow below that: Habits That Handicap: The Remedy for Narcotic, Alcohol, Tobacco and Other Drug Addictions (New York; London: Funk and Wagnalls, 1919) Help for the Hard Drinker; What Can Be Done to Save the Man Worth While (New York, 1912) "The Injury of Tobacco and its Relation to other Drug Habits," 83 Cent. Mag. 766-772 (1912) The Peril of the Drug Habit, and the Need of Restrictive Legislation (New York: Century Co., 1912) Federal Responsibility in the Solution of the Habit-forming Drug Problem (New York, 1916) The Personal Problem Confronting the Physician in the Treatment of Drug and Alcoholic Addiction (New York: Charles B. Towns Hospital, 1917) The Present and Future of Narcotive Pathology, in Three Parts (New York: Charles B. Towns Hospital, 1917) The Alcoholic Problem Considered in its Institutional, Medical, and Sociological Aspects, in Three Parts (New York, The C. B. Towns Hospital, 1917) NEW DRUG LAW HITS ACCIDENTAL USERS Towns Says Provision Must Be Made to Treat Thousands Who Got Habit Unconsciously. THEIR SUPPLY SHUT OFF Drug Fiends of the Underworld Will Be Little Affected by Statute Governing Physicians' Prescriptions. New York Times June 21, 1914 The Boylan anti-drug law, which was passed by the New York Legislature on March 28, and which becomes effective on July 1, will result in serious consequences if State and city authorities do not make immediate provision for the treatment of "innocent" drug slaves, according to Charles B. Towns of 119 West Eighty-first Street, who framed the law. "There are thousands of persons in this city alone who have unconsciously become addicted to the use of habit-forming drugs and who are not in any way to blame for their condition," Mr. Towns said yesterday. "Some of these innocent victims may not yet know that they have become drug fiends. No estimate can be made of their number. These are persons who, perhaps several years ago, were given drugs on physicians prescriptions to alleviate suffering from some disease or injury which, in most of the cases has since been cured. The administra- tion of the drug, however, creates a craving for it which the patient cannot withstand, and after the cause for the first doses is gone the habit remains. The victims then secure more and more of the drug on their physicians' prescriptions. If the drug is denied them they become violently nervous and show all of the horrible symptoms of the deprived dope fiend within twenty-four hours; making it necessary for their physicians to renew the prescriptions. "The new law provides that in the future, it shall be unlawful for any physician, veterina- rian, or dentist to issue prescriptions for drugs except after a physical examination for the treatment of disease, injury, or deformity, and to prevent the forging of prescription blanks every doctor signing them must affix a record of his name in full, his office address, office hours, and telephone number, and to whom the prescription is issued, together with the date of issuance. It can be filled but once, and must be filled within ten days. It will also be unlawful for any person to fill such prescription without first verifying its authenticity by telephone or otherwise or to have drugs in his possession without authority. Aside from the fact that any dealer or physician found guilty of breaking the new law will be guilty of a misdemeanor, his license may be revoked upon his conviction. "These new strictures will make it impossible for the innocent drug fiends to secure more drugs from their physicians. The law for the time being will hardly affect the drug users of the underworld, who have long known secret channels through which they can obtain their drugs. It will fall most heavily on the person who has broken no law in the past in securing habit forming drugs and will drive him--or her, for there are vast numbers of women who have become drug fiends in this manner--to seek illicit drug dens if other methods are not speedily provided. The law provides that persons who are found to be habitual users of such drugs shall be committed to a State, county, or city hospital or institution licensed under the State Lunacy Commission until they have been treated sufficiently to warrant their release. It takes only five or six days to cure a drug fiend in a hospital, but as yet the hospitals licensed by the commission have not made ample preparation for the treatment of more than a small percentage of the cases which should be sent to them when the law goes into effect if the highest good is to be derived from the law. "The movement for intelligent legislation regulating drug traffic is comparatively young and New York's new law will not remedy conditions in this State, but it is a good beginning. It should attract the attention of intelligent people in other States, and should be imitated throughout the country. Until this is done, however, and uniform anti-drug legislation has been secured we will be handicapped by the fact that drug users in New York can send prescriptions across the river to New Jersey, or elsewhere, and have them filled with little inconvenience. The law provides that all orders for the wholesale purchase of drugs must be written on serially numbered, duplicated blanks furnished by the Commissioner of Health. This will keep track of all supplies of drugs purchased in New York, but druggists, or persons posing as druggists, will still be able to order from Philadelphia, or elsewhere on their regular letterhead paper or on fake letterhead paper. The need of national legislation is obvious." Mr. Towns has prepared an act which he hopes to have passed by Congress imposing a tax upon and regulating the importation, production, manufacture and distribution of habit-forming drugs. Under the present Federal law, he said yesterday, the government asks no question concerning the disposition which is made of crude drugs imported into the country, but simply taxes them as they come in. His bill proposes that a close record be kept of every ounce of habit-forming drug that enters the country until it is finally consumed under orders from a reputable physician. There should also be legal provision, he said yesterday, to prevent the filling of prescriptions for drugs issued by any physician not a resident of the State in which the prescription is filled, so as to overcome the present interstate laxity. In setting an example in the matter for other States to follow, it was suggested it would be a good idea for the New York State Medical Society to prepare official prescription blanks exclusively for drugs and to have them copyrighted so that similar blanks could not be printed for illicit use. When asked what he considered the principal cause of the widespread use of drugs, Mr. Towns said: "In the six thousand cases I have studied, I have found that in every case in which the victim was a youth he had smoked cigarettes long before he began to take drugs." Effective universal anti-drug legislation, he said, would reduce lunacy and criminality about 40 per cent. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4192. . . . . . . . . . . . Charles B. Towns (2 of 2) From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/22/2007 8:45:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The New York Times, April 29,1917 WAR IS INCREASING THE DRUG-CONSUMING HABIT Hospitals Develop Craving, Says Charles B. Towns, Who Urges Federal Action No human intensity can compare with that of the drug user for his drug. Unrelieved, he will let nothing stand between him and it; neither hunger, nakedness, starvation, arson, theft, nor murder will keep him from the substance he craves. This is the opinion of Charles B. Towns of New York City, of whom Dr. Richard C. Cabot of Boston does not hesitate to say that he "knows, more about the alleviation and cure of drug addictions than any doctor I have ever seen." The man who first indorsed Mr. Towns and urged Dr. Cabot, to study his specific treatment for the drug-taker, was Dr. Alexander Lambert of Bellevue Hospital, Professor of Clinical Medicine at the Cornell University Medical College. And it is also the opinion of Mr. Towns that the war in Europe has resulted in a tremendous and unnecessary increase in the use of habit- forming drugs, and that the great need in our country at the moment is that Congress empower the President to appoint a committee of able men to investigate this whole matter in all its phases and make such appropriation as may be required to protect our soldiers from the insidious evil that is doing its work abroad. Mr. Towns is going to Washington in a few days with this object in view. He hopes to bring forcefully to the attention of President Wilson certain facts concerning the growth of the drug habit among the troops in Europe, together with the necessity that this country take up this whole subject by commission, because it is so far-reaching, involves so much detail, and affects so many and such varied interests that it would be impossible at this time to introduce in Congress legislation that would meet the case as it should be met. "I presume you have read in the papers," said Mr. Towns, "the account of the arrest of some illicit traffickers in habit-forming drugs in which an enormous quantity--- $500,000 worth, it is reported--- of such drugs was found and it was also stated that this organization had representatives in foreign countries and was carrying on a wholesale business in such drugs. This is of great interest and confirms my position, namely, that unless this problem is taken up internationally it will be impossible to reach such things, because, the present Federal and State laws on the subject are wholly inadequate." Before any legislation is proposed, Mr. Towns believes the subject should be investigated by the Federal Government and that its findings should be made public and studied as a prelimi- nary to the enactment of any law or amendment to the present law. "With the united wisdom of Congress applied to the matter,'' he said a few days ago, "there can be no doubt that such an investigation as I have in mind would lay the foundation for Federal legislation that would once and for all solve this monstrous problem. Such action of Congress would mean not only a solution of this subject as far as the Federal Government is concerned; it would mean also a solution for the States. And it would, mind you, establish a legislative, medical, and sociological precedent that would give this country for the first time the primacy it ought to have in asking other countries to join with us once and for all in terminating this evil--an evil which has now become not merely a series of isolated national problems, but a united world problem. "I have recently had a patient in this hospital who had been going through two kinds of battle in France. He won the Victoria Cross. But he also acquired the drug habit. The army hospital made a drug taker out of him. It has probably done the same for half a million other brave men. "Before enlisting in the present war he in South Africa, was awarded a South African Service Medal, and was honorably discharged. He went to France in August, 1914, and was in his first engagement on Aug. 25, 26, 27, and 28 when he was 'gassed.' "He told me that the physical condition produced by gas was similar to pneumonia in several respects. One being a contraction of the chest which makes it impossible for the patient to lie down. The patients, himself included, were carried into the hospital, set up against a wall, and immediately placed under the influence of morphine. He said it had been found that morphine was the only thing that would relieve a sufferer from the effects of gas. "As soon as the patients were able to help themselves and to use a hypodermic a mixture of this morphine solution was put on a table within their reach, and they were allowed to use it as often as they felt inclined. "Now, this soldier was not aware that he was becoming a morphine addict, but in those three months he became one. The treatment followed in his case was the usual one, and, so far as his observations went, each of the gas victims who entered the hospital for treatment left it a confirmed drug user. "He returned to the front and took part in the Hill 60 engagement, where his battalion was wiped out---the Eleventh Battalion of the Black Watch. He stood for an hour and a quarter at roll call, and was the only man who answered to his name. But he was wounded and went again to the hospital. He told them that he was up against the morphine habit, and they gave him what morphine he needed while there. "He left that hospital and joined the Royal Engineers. was again wounded, again went to the hospital for three weeks in March, 1915, and again was supplied with the drug during that time. Then he was sent to the Somme front, where it was trench fighting. But he was still able to get the drug in any quantity from civilians. As he put it to me: 'Thousands and thousands of dollars' worth of drugs are being sold by the women who are following the army. "It is the firm conviction of this man that all those who have been through the war from the first and have been 'gassed' are takers of the drug. "On July 27, 1915, his officers had ordered the blowing up of a trench. My friend started with a crew of eleven men to cross 275 feet of tunnel toward the enemy, when, after reaching half the distance, shells from the Austrian guns fell short and blew the tunnelers to pieces. Where had been a tunnel was now only a hole. "My friend picked himself up and found that his leg was sprained and his back hurt. There was one fellow whose leg was blown off. My friend carried him over to their trenches so looked back and saw another companion trying to get up. So he carried him in. He carried back the whole eleven, and dropped when the job was finished. "When he knew anything again he was back in the hospital--the same hospital at which he had remained previously for nearly three months. "He informs me that the hospital records show that while he was in them morphine was admini- stered to him regularly. This will appear on the charts, but not the quantity. He has seen morphine administered to twenty men at one time from the same hypodermic; in fact, the nurses never refused morphine to any one who asked for it. "After he arrived in this country he went to Boston and the British Consul there arranged for him to go to Bermuda with the nurse. He stayed there about two weeks, but his cough got no better and he came back. He then went into the Maine woods, where he tried to rid himself of the drug habit, but found he could not. The open air did cure his cough, and he returned to Boston determined to conquer his addiction to drugs. A physician prescribed for him for four weeks, and he was taking as much morphine at the end of that time as he had been at the beginning. "This man told me that he was very discouraged, and had made up his mind to shoot himself. He talked the matter over with his wife, and they came to New York and saw me. He had only $71 left when he reached New York. I gave him the best room in the house, feeling that I owed it to the boys over there in Europe to do something. He is cured. "Now the basic way for the United States or any other country to deal with this question," Mr. Towns asserted, "to go at once and directly to the very root of the whole business, would be to restrict all use of opium to its crude form and to its forms as laudanum and paregoric. This would cut off all pecuniary interest in it, save for supplying it for legitimate medical needs in the crude form, and in its least harmful forms of laudanum and paregoric. Opium is produced only in a few countries--practically none in our own country--and it is only the manufacture of its alkaloids that requires such large outlay of capital in laboratory equipment. "Where an opiate is indicated there are very few instances in which the required results could not be had from the administration of the crude product. Crude opium is the least harmful form of opium that can be taken for it contains all of the alkaloids and may be taken either by the mouth or in suppositories. If the traffic in and sale of this drug was reduced to traffic and sale of crude opium it would not inconvenience the medical profession in its legitimate use of the drug in any way whatsoever find it would Immediately stop this large illicit traffic that has grown out of the habit-forming drug situation. "No possible good will come out of attempting merely to forbid the importation, manufacture or sale of heroin. The chemists are very clever and they would give us in another day some preparation of opium under some other trade name. And if it was not an actual preparation of opium they would claim that it was a synthetic one. The only way to meet such a habit-forming drug condition is, I repeat, to restrict the manufacture, sale, prescribing and administering of opiates to the crude opium, to laudanum, and to paregoric, and then to hold the physician to a strict accounting of all of these he personally prescribes or administers. There are no physical conditions in which heroin or any other narcotic is indicated but what could be met by these. We can dispense even with morphine and all of the opium alkaloids. "I can go back to the time in the South when there was an old rosewood medicine chest with a ball of opium and a vial of paregoric, and these easily met every possible need where opiates were considered necessary to alleviate pain. The medical profession would not be inconvenienced in the slightest degree by such a restriction, and it would at once eliminate every unfavorable hazard that has grown out of the use of habit-forming drugs for medical purposes. "Stopping importation is a farce, unless at the same time there is a rigid Governmental control in those countries that produce or import the drug. The only obstacle to an international understanding is that the producing countries know very well that Government regulation would materially lessen the sale of the drug. Within the borders of our own country such a system would simplify rather than complicate present conditions. We have today along our frontier find in our parts inspectors trying to stop the illicit traffic in opium, and the money thus spent by our Government would be more than sufficient to handle and distribute all of the drug that is needed for legitimate purposes. "Any druggist could of course continue to buy all that he wished, but he would have to account for what he bought. The drug would serve only its legitimate purpose, because the druggist could sell it only on prescription. This would at once eliminate the gravest feature of the case, the indiscriminate sale of proprietary and patent medicines containing small quantities of opium. The physician would thus have to shoulder the entire responsibility for the use of any habit-forming drug. "I must hammer this point once more: With the Government as the first distributor and the physician as the last, the whole condition of affairs would assume a brighter aspect, for it would be a simple matter to get from the physician a proper accounting for what he had dispensed. Thus the new crop of users would be small, and less than 10 per cent. of the opium at present brought into this country would be sufficient to meet every legitimate need." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4193. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Henrietta Seiberling''s grave From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/24/2007 1:09:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII At 14:52 3/21/2007 , Bob S. wrote: >An archivist friend of mine, who lives in >southern Indiana, would like to learn where >Henrietta Seiberling is buried. Best >information leads me to believe that her plot >is in Kentucky and that her gravestone is >inscribed "Let go and let God." She was from Lawrenceburg, Kentucky, which just so happens is the home of my daughter, and she is buried there according to "A Narrative Timeline of A.A. History." Go here and use the search function: I will mention it to her and see if she can do a phone call or two. I plan a visit there in May and, if we find the grave, can take some pics of it. Lawrenceburg is just south of Frankfort and a few miles west of Lexington in, I believe, Anderson County. Tommy H in Baton Rouge IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4194. . . . . . . . . . . . Jane S., Q and A: Alcoholism and Sobriety From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/27/2007 11:54:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII New book out: Jane S., Q and A: Alcoholism and Sobriety, March 2007, ISBN 0-595-42334-5, xvi + 135 pp., $14.95. http://hindsfoot.org/kqa1.html (and http://hindsfoot.org/index.html ) Contains historical material on AA practices, how newcomers were sponsored, and the way AA meetings and committees were run and organized in Pennsylvania (on the East Coast of the United States) in the 1970-2000 period. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4195. . . . . . . . . . . . What was the "ordinary psychological approach"? From: terry144434 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/26/2007 8:10:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In the Doctors opinion, it says, "Many types do not respond to the ordinary psychological approach." Can anyone clarify what this approach/treatment may have been? Many thanks Terry - - - - NOTE FROM THE MODERATOR: The standard work on this topic is the extremely thorough and detailed book by William White, "The History of Addiction Treatment and Recovery in America." Other members of this group may have details on the specific things that Dr. Silkworth had been trying before AA came along. Glenn C. (South Bend) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4196. . . . . . . . . . . . A writing on "AA and the Higher Power" From: ckbudnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/25/2007 10:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Is anyone familiar with the origin of the following writing? One of my friend's first sponsors received a copy of it in 1964 on his 3rd anniversary. I have typed the text and it is as follows: AA AND THE HIGHER POWER God In His wisdom, selected this group of men and women to be the purveyors of his goodness. In selecting them, through whom to bring about this phenomenon, He went not to the proud, the mighty, the famous, or the brilliant; He went to the humble, the sick, the unfortunate; He went right to the drunkard, the so-called weakling of the world. Well might He have said to us: "Unto your weak and feeble hands, I have entrusted a power beyond estimate. To you has been given that which has been denied the most learned of your fellows. Not to scientists or statesmen, not to wives or mothers, not even to My priests or ministers, have I given this gift of healing other alcoholics which I entrust to you. "It must be used unselfishly; it carries with it grave responsibility. No day can be too long; no demands upon your time can be too urgent; no case too pitiful; no task to hard; no effort too great. It must be used with tolerance, for I have restricted its application to no race, no creed, and no denomination. Personal criticism you must expect; lack of appreciation will be common; ridicule will be your lot; your motives will be misjudged. You must be prepared for adversity, for what men call adversity is the ladder you must use to ascend the rungs toward spiritual perfection, and, remember – in the exercise of this power, I shall not exact of you beyond your capabilities. "You are not selected because of your exceptional talents, and be careful, always, if success attends your efforts, not to ascribe to personal superiority that to which you can lay claim only by virtue of My gift. If I had wanted learned men to accomplish this mission, the power would have been entrusted to the physician and the scientist. If I had wanted eloquent men, there would have been many anxious for the assignment, for talk is the easiest used of all talents with which I have endowed mankind. If I had wanted scholarly men, the world is filled with better qualified men than you, who would be available. You were selected because you have been the outcasts of the world and your long experience as drunkards has made or should make you humbly alert to the cries of distress that come from the lonely hearts of alcoholics everywhere. "Keep ever in mind the admission you made on the day of your profession in A.A., namely that you are powerless and that it was only with your willingness to turn your life and will unto My keeping that relief came to you." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4197. . . . . . . . . . . . Charles B. Towns'' professional degree From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/24/2007 4:32:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Any idea what Towns' Ph.D. was in and where he earned it? I notice in the articles they refer to him as Mr. and physicians as Dr. The academics would howl! If memory serves me well, Silkworth was an M.D. and a neurologist, and Thibault an M.D. and psychiatrist, psychiatry and neurology at the time overlapping quite more than today. Tommy IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4198. . . . . . . . . . . . Photo of Henrietta Seiberling''s grave From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/2/2007 3:24:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Photos of Henrietta Seiberling's grave (and that of her parents) posted at http://hindsfoot.org/photos1.html Sent in by Charles K., A.A. archivist from California cdknapp@pacbell.net (cdknapp at pacbell.net) Subject: Re: Henrietta Seiberling's grave I am not sure of the exact location of the cemetery, but here is a photo of her tombstone and her parents. She is buried in her family plot (Beckler). I was driven to the cemetery when I attended a National Archives Workshop a few years ago. Hope this helps Charles from California Since we can't put attachments on AAHistoryLovers messages, Charles' photos are posted in the A.A. Historical Materials Part 3 section at http://hindsfoot.org/archive3.html on the http://hindsfoot.org/ website) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4199. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: A writing on "AA and the Higher Power" From: PR_Magoo . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/27/2007 4:48:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The full text of Judge John Touhy's talk is given by Jim Blair in Message 251: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/251 It was at given the Fourth Anniversary of the Chicago Group on October 5, 1943. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4200. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: A writing on "AA and the Higher Power" From: ricktompkins@comcast.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/27/2007 10:43:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Your quote comes from a Chicago Central Office (the Area 19 Service Office) titled AA -- God's Instrument, published since 1953. Many excerpts are taken from that pamphlet, the least of which was Bright Star Press of East Moline, Illinois in the late 1950s, who began printing wallet cards called "Why We Were Chosen." The text is from a prepared talk by AA member John T. of Chicago, a Circuit Cout Judge (later an Illinois Appellate Court Judge) at the Chicago Group's fourth anniversary in 1943. Chicago Archives has the pamphlet's draft that is actually about half of his entire scripted talk (also in the Archives). Many conference taping compamies can provide you with the wallet cards---seems like dozens still sell "Why We Were Chosen." The Judge would be amused! Rick, Illinois IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4201. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: A writing on "AA and the Higher Power" From: Mark W. . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/28/2007 7:22:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I found what might be your answer by Googling "We Are Chosen" without the quotes. It came up in the first result at, of all places, the Orange Papers. Accordingly, it says that this came from an address given by Judge John T. at the 4th Anniversary of the Chicago Group on October 5, 1943. You can see it here; http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-Why_We_Were_Chosen.html If you don't know, the author of the Orange Papers is not particularly enamored with AA :) (I'm trying to say it nicely... he's actually quite vitriolic towards AA) Mark ______________________________ We also received replies on this topic from a number of other members of the group, all referring us to the talk by Judge John Touhy: "Diz Titcher" (diz49 at earthlink.net) "Bruce A. Johanson" (bajohanson at charter.net) Tim Baer (TBaerMojo at aol.com) "Mitchell K." (mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com) "Mike Brewer" (tuswecaoyate at yahoo.com) "tomper87" (tomper99 at yahoo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4202. . . . . . . . . . . . Camel pins? From: iidog@prodigy.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/2/2007 6:56:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Can anyone tell me the history of the camel and coffee pins? I know they were wore on the jacket lapels. Thank you. Jane B. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4203. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Camel pins? From: Fiona Dodd . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/2/2007 4:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "The camel each day goes twice to its knees, It picks up it's load with the greatest of ease, It walks through the day with it's head held high, And stays for that day completely dry." The origin I have no idea but the symbolism resonates. Fiona IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4204. . . . . . . . . . . . Big Book Prayers From: zooballistic . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/5/2007 1:39:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Can anyone help point me in the right direction as to where I might find a listing of all the prayers in the Big Book? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4205. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Camel pins and camel poem From: george cleveland . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/4/2007 11:46:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I always appreciated this verse. Can't find the origin yet. This site expands the lines a bit. AND warns us that after a winter of no drinking, he or she will down 50 gallons at a sitting! George Cleveland http://www.worldtrek.org/odyssey/africa/091599/091599jasminecamel.html "The camel each day Goes twice to his knees He picks up his load With the greatest of ease He walks through the day With his head held high And stays dry for that day Without even a sigh Ships of the desert are these great beasts called join us for a ride, Come one, come all!" - - - - Fiona Dodd wrote: (fionadodd at eircom.net) "The camel each day goes twice to its knees, It picks up its load with the greatest of ease, It walks through the day with its head held high, And stays for that day completely dry." The origin I have no idea but the symbolism resonates. Fiona IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4206. . . . . . . . . . . . Significant April Daates in A.A. History From: chesbayman56 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/6/2007 1:06:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII April April 1935 - Dr. Silkworth told Bill to quit preaching at drunks and tell them of obsession and allergy. April 1950 - Saturday Evening Post article "The Drunkard's Best Friend" by Jack Alexander. April 1958 - The word "honest" dropped from AA Preamble, "an honest desire to stop drinking". April 1966 - Change in ratio of trustees of the General Service Board; now two thirds (majority) are alcoholic. April 1970 - GSO moved to 468 Park Ave. South, NYC. April 1, 1939 - Publication date of Alcoholics Anonymous, AA's Big Book. April 1, 1940 - Larry J. of Houston, wrote "The Texas Prayer", used to open AA meetings in Texas. April 1, 1966 - Sister Ignatia died. April 2, 1966 - Harry Tiebout, M.D. died. April 3, 1941 - First AA meeting held in Florida. April 3, 1960 - Fr. Ed Dowling, S.J., died. He was Bill W's "spiritual sponsor." April 7, 1941 - Ruth Hock reported there were 1,500 letters asking for help as a result of the Saturday Evening Post Article by Jack Alexander. April 10, 1939 - The first ten copies of the Big Book arrived at the office Bill and Hank P shared. April 11, 1938 - The Alcoholic Foundation formed as a trusteeship for A.A. (sometimes reported as May 1938) April 11, 1941 - Bill and Lois finally found a home, Stepping Stones in New Bedford. April 16, 1940 - A sober Rollie H. catches the only opening day no- hitter in baseball history since 1909. April 16, 1973 - Dr. Jack Norris presented President Nixon with the one millionth copy of the Big Book. April 19, 1940 - The first AA group in Little Rock, Arkansas, was formed. First 'mail order' group. April 19, 1941 - The first AA group in the State of Washington was formed in Seattle. April 22, 1940 - Bill and Hank transfer their Works Publishing stock to the Alcoholic Foundation. April 23, 1940 - Dr. Bob wrote the Trustees to refuse Big Book royalties, but Bill W insisted that Dr. Bob and Anne receive them. April 24, 1940 - The first AA pamphlet, "AA", was published. April 24, 1989 - Dr. Leonard Strong died. April 25, 1939 - Morgan R interviewed on Gabriel Heatter radio show. April 25, 1951 - AA's first General Service Conference was held. April 26 or May 1, 1939 - Bank forecloses on 182 Clinton Street. April 30, 1989 - Film "My Name is Bill W." a Hallmark presentation was broadcast on ABC TV. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4207. . . . . . . . . . . . Herbert Spencer quote actually Paley and Poole From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/5/2007 3:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: "Des Green" (puggreen2008 at yahoo.co.uk) Hi Glenn, The quote in the BB attributed to Herbert Spencer "Contempt prior to investigation" etc. It has come up in my local group that there is no evidence that he has actually ever said this. I have looked on the net but to no avail. Can you shed some light on to this? Best wishes to you and yours Des - - - - Des, Because of all the discussion and controversy over this, I think it would be useful to give a little summary (in one place) of what is known now about the real authorship of this famous quotation. It seems actually to be a modification made by a man named Poole in 1879 of a line from a book written by William Paley in 1794. Glenn - - - - William Paley, A View of the Evidences of Christianity (1794): "The infidelity of the Gentile world, and that more especially of men of rank and learning in it, is resolved into a principle which, in my judgment, will account for the inefficacy of any argument, or any evidence whatever, viz. contempt prior to examination." Rev. William H. Poole, Anglo-Israel or, The British Nation: The Lost Tribes of Israel (1879). On the title page of this book, Rev. Poole gives his own modified version of this, but still attributes it to Paley: "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all argument, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance. This principle is, contempt prior to examination." --Dr. Paley The Big Book (at the end of Appendix II on "Spiritual Experience," on page 568 in the fourth edition) has a version which is almost identical to Poole's modified version of what Paley had said: "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principle is contempt prior to investigation." -- Herbert Spencer - - - - To learn more, go to the AAHistoryLovers Message Board at http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/messages and do a search for Spencer. We've had a lot of stuff on the Message Board about this quote. Among other messages, Message 3546 at http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/3546 says: Regarding the quote attributed to Herbert Spencer in the Big Book, I've come across some research on this quote by Michael St. George: http://www.geocities.com/fitquotation/ In what looks to be a very thorough investigation, St. George concludes that the quote comes from William Paley rather than Spencer. - - - - This excellent and thorough article by by Michael St. George http://www.geocities.com/fitquotation/ gives all of the background of the quotation. As he demonstrates, it seems to be a modification of something originally said by William Paley in 1794, where the slightly altered version given by the Rev. William H. Poole in 1879 is almost identical to the wording in the Big Book. The mistaken attribution of the quotation to Herbert Spencer seems to have been common however in a number of books written in the 1930's, 40's, and 50's. The mistake shows up for the first time, as far as is now known, in 1931. How Spencer ever got confused with Paley and Poole is a complete mystery however. There is some suggestion that it might have been carelessness on the part of an editor who put together a book of famous quotations, and placed this quotation at the end of a number of authentic quotations from Paley, without indicating that this particular quotation however came from a different source. The Big Book version makes only four very minor changes in the 1879 Poole version: the word "argument" is put in the plural, there is a dash instead of a period, "that" is used instead of "this," and one comma is removed. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4208. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr. Bob''s story of the A.A. Camel From: David Jones . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/2/2007 4:45:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII THE AA CAMEL The camel each day goes twice to his knees. He picks up his load with the greatest of ease. He walks through the day with his head held high. And stays for that day, completely dry. "Dr. Bob would explain prayer by telling how the camels in a caravan would kneel down in the evening, and the men would unload their burdens. In the morning, they would kneel down again, and the men would put the burdens back on. 'It's the same with prayer,' Dr. Bob said. 'We get on our knees to unload at night. And in the morning when we get on our knees again, God gives us just the load we are able to carry for that day.'" Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers (1980), page 229 - - - - Same passage on page 229 cited by Tim (TBaerMojo at aol.com) "David Jones" (davidjones at davidjones3.plus.com) Floyd J (Azor521 at aol.com) - - - - "John Wikelius" (nov85_gr at graceba.net) A camel can go 24 hours without a drink. I believe the coffee is just the social concept of fellowship of AA members. - - - - "jenny andrews" (jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com) At the first convention I attended in the UK in 1985 there was a stall selling trinkets, circle and triangle jewellery, car bumper stickers etc., including a lot of camel pins with the figure 24 on them. I was less than a year sober and I wondered why they had sold out of all the other years of sobriety except 24! Go well, Laurie A. - - - - Also from Dennis McD (denezmcd at aol.com) - - - - IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4209. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Camel pins and Camel Prayer From: Bob . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/3/2007 9:36:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The camel is one of the original alcoholics' symbols of hope. If the camel can go one day without a drink of water, alcoholics can go one day without a drink of alcohol, One Day at a Time. Dr. Bob, co-founder of the alcoholics org, told the camel story -- see Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers (1980), page 229. CAMEL PRAYER "The tasks of the day can pass with ease when a camel or I start on our knees. One Master we serve, the camel and I, and stay for that day completely dry." ___________________________ Fiona Dodd wrote (fionadodd at eircom.net): "The camel each day goes twice to its knees, It picks up its load with the greatest of ease, It walks through the day with its head held high, And stays for that day completely dry." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4210. . . . . . . . . . . . Camel pins in 1948 Grapevine From: PR_Magoo . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/4/2007 2:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I did a search of the Grapevine digital archive and in the July 1948, Vol. 5, No. 2 issue, there is mention of a camel: "Group to Give Oscar for Anniversaries" "The recognition will take the form of a Camel. The Camel is wholly emblematic of the purposes of most sincere A.A.s, i.e., to live for 24 hours without a drink." That is pretty close, in concept, to what you describe. Phil __________________________________ Jane B. wrote (iidog at prodigy.net): > Can anyone tell me the history of the camel > and coffee pins? I know they were wore on the > jacket lapels. > > Thank you. > Jane B. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4211. . . . . . . . . . . . Hospital costs for Alcoholics at Town''s Hospital in 1934 From: mlb9292 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/7/2007 1:32:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have been looking for information on the cost of hospital treatment in 1934-35 at Towns in New York and the hospitals in Akron. Can you point me in the right direction or answer my inquiry. Also, I have been searching for some reference to how Bill paid for his visits to Towns Hospital. Can you give me any information or steer me toward materials that may hold the answer? I have read that Towns was a pretty first class and expensive private hospital Thanks, God Bless Ben H, Tulsa, OK IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4212. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Big Book Prayers From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/5/2007 8:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Prayers in the Big Book Prior to the Stories page:paragraph 12:6 For a brief moment, I had needed and wanted God. There had been a humble willingness to have Him with me - and He came. 13:2 There I humbly offered myself to God, as I then understood Him, to do with me as He would. I placed myself unreservedly under His care and direction. I admitted for the first time that of myself I was nothing; that without Him I was lost. 13:4 I was to sit quietly when in doubt, asking only for direction and strength to meet my problems as He would have me. Never was I to pray for myself, except as my requests bore on my usefulness to others. 63:2 God, I offer myself to thee - to build with me and to do with me as Thou wilt. Relieve me of the bondage of self, that I may better do Thy will. Take away my difficulties, that victory over them may bear witness to those I would help of Thy Power, Thy Love, and Thy Way of life. May I do Thy will always! 67:0 We asked God to help us show them the same tolerance, pity, and patience that we would cheerfully grant a sick friend. When a person offended we said to ourselves, "This is a sick man. How can I be helpful to him? God save me from being angry. Thy will be done." 68:3 We ask Him to remove our fear and direct our attention to what He would have us be. 69:2 We ask God to mold our [sex] ideals and help us to live up to them. 69:3 In meditation, we ask God what we should do about each specific matter [sex harms]. 70:2 We earnestly pray for the right [sex] ideal, for guidance in each questionable situation, for sanity and for the strength to do the right thing. 75:3 We thank God from the bottom of our heart that we know Him better. 75:3 Carefully reading the first five proposals we ask if we have omitted anything, for we are building an arch through which we shall walk a free man at last. Is our work solid so far? Are the stones properly in place? Have we skimped on the cement put into the foundation? Have we tried to make mortar without sand? 76:1 If we still cling to something we will not let go [shortcomings], we ask God to help us be willing. 76:2 My Creator, I am now willing that You should have all of me, good and bad. I pray that You now remove from me every single defect of character which stands in the way of my usefulness to You and my fellows. Grant me strength, as I go out from here, to do Your bidding. Amen. 76:3 We attempt to sweep away the debris which has accumulated out of our effort to live on self- will and run the show ourselves. If we haven't the will to do this, we ask until it comes [making amends]. 79:1 Reminding ourselves that we have decided to go to any lengths to find a spiritual experience, we ask that we be given strength and direction to do the right thing, no matter what the personal consequences may be [making amends]. 82:1 It may be that both [you and you significant other] will decide that the way of good sense and loving kindness is to let by-gones be by-gones [no direct amends]. Each might pray about it, having the other one's happiness uppermost in mind. 83:1 So we clean house with the family, asking each morning in meditation that our Creator show us the way of patience, tolerance, kindness and love. 84:2 When these crop up [selfishness, dishonesty, resentment and fear], we ask God at once to remove them. 85:1 How can I best serve Thee - Thy will (not mine) be done. 86:1 After making our (nightly) review we ask God's forgiveness and inquire what corrective measures should be taken. 86:2 Before we begin (meditation), we ask God to direct our thinking, especially asking that it be divorced from self-pity, dishonest or self-seeking motives. 86:3 [Facing indecision] Here we ask God for inspiration, an intuitive thought or a decision. We relax and take it easy. We don't struggle. 87:1 We usually conclude the period of meditation with a prayer that we be shown all through the day what our next step is to be, that we be given whatever we need to take care of such problems. We ask especially for freedom from self-will, and are careful to make no request for ourselves only. We may ask for ourselves, however, if others will be helped. We are careful never to pray for our own selfish ends. 87:3 As we go through the day we pause, when agitated or doubtful, and ask for the right thought or action. We constantly remind ourselves we are no longer running the show, humbly saying to ourselves may times each day, "Thy will be done." 158:2 On the third day the lawyer gave his life to the care and direction of his Creator, and said he was perfectly willing to do anything necessary. 164:2 Ask Him in your morning meditation what you can do each day for the man who is still sick. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4213. . . . . . . . . . . . Big Book Prayers: the classic old timers'' answer From: Diz Titcher . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/5/2007 5:26:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Diz Ticher, Mitchell K., and Shakey Mike - - - - The question was asked by (zoolofttheband at aol.com): Can anyone help point me in the right direction as to where I might find a listing of all the prayers in the Big Book? - - - - Answer (diz49 at earthlink.net) Look for them yourself, then you will not forget them. Diz Titcher - - - - From: Shakey1aa@aol.com (Shakey1aa at aol.com) You can find them between the front page and the last page of the big book. Shakey - - - - From: "Mitchell K." (mitchell_k_archivist@yahoo.com) Do I win a prize? I did an Internet search by typing in "prayers in the big book" and came up with many different answers. My favorite appears to be an entry by our very own Barefoot Bill which can be found at (scroll down the page to find the prayers) http://www.barefootsworld.net/aaworkstep1011.html There are dozens of search engines available, most of them do the trick quite well all on their own or you can used dog pile or copernic or other meta engines which search multiple search engines. Most, if not all are free and aid in looking for something. The Internet is such a wonder full venue to find just about anything. All you have to do is seek. I remember reading somewhere that ... seek and ye shall find. For me, seeking isn't asking someone else to find it for me. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4214. . . . . . . . . . . . Big Book Prayers on Silkworth.net From: Azor521@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/5/2007 1:38:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII You might find what you want at this site: http://silkworth.net/aa/prayer.html - - - - The same webpage was also recommended by: Susan Banker NYC (sbanker914 at aol.com) "davidrstack" (davidrstack at bellsouth.net) jesse gilliam (mr_clean1991 at yahoo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4215. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Big Book Prayers From: kilroy@ceoexpress.com> . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/5/2007 3:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Prayers From The Big Book "I EARNESTLY ADVISE EVERY ALCOHOLIC TO READ THIS BOOK THROUGH, AND THOUGH PERHAPS HE CAME TO SCOFF, HE MAY REMAIN TO PRAY." William D. Silkworth, MD - Pg. xxx "GOD IS EVERYTHING OR HE IS NOTHING. GOD EITHER IS OR HE ISN'T. WHAT WAS OUR CHOICE TO BE?" Pg. 53 Pg. 59 We asked His protection and care with complete abandon. THIRD STEP Pg. 63 - God, I offer myself to Thee - to build with me and do with me as Thou wilt. Relieve me of the bondage of self, that I may better do Thy will. Take away my difficulties, that victory over them may bear witness to those I would help of Thy Power, Thy Love and Thy Way of Life. May I do Thy will always! FOURTH STEP PG 67 RESENTMENT - We asked God to help us show them the same tolerance, pity, and patience that we would cheerfully grant a sick friend. When a person offended we said to ourselves, "This is a sick man. How can I be helpful to him? God save me from being angry. Thy will be done." Pg. 68 FEAR - We ask Him to remove our fear and direct our attention to what He would have us be. Pg. 69 SEX - We asked God to mold our ideals and help us live up to them. Pg. 69 SEX - In meditation, we ask God what we do about each specific matter. Pg. 70 SEX - To sum up about sex: We pray for the right ideal, for guidance in each questionable situation, for sanity and for strength to do the right thing. FIFTH STEP Pg. 75 We thank God from the bottom of our heart that we know Him better. Pg. 75 we ask if we have omitted anything, SIXTH STEP Pg. 76 If we still cling to something we will not let go, we ask God to help us be willing. SEVENTH STEP Pg. 76 My Creator, I am now willing that You should have all of me, good and bad. I pray that You now remove from me every single defect of character which stands in the way of my usefulness to you and my fellows. Grant me strength, as I go out from here, to do Your bidding. Amen EIGHTH STEP Pg. 76 If we haven't the will to do this, we ask until it comes. NINETH STEP Pg. 79 LEGAL MATTERS - We ask that we be given strength and direction to do the right thing, no matter what the personal consequences might be. Pg. 80 OTHERS EFFECTED - If we have obtained permission, have consulted with others, asked God to help. Pg. 82 INFIDELITY - Each might pray about it, having the other one's happiness uppermost in mind. Pg. 83 FAMILY - So we clean house with the family, asking each morning in meditation that our Creator show us the way of patience, tolerance, kindliness and love. TENTH STEP Pg. 84 Continue to watch for selfishness, dishonesty, resentment and fear. When these crop up, we ask God at once to remove them. Pg. 85 Everyday is a day when we must carry the vision of God's will into all our activities. "How can I best serve Thee--Thy will (not mine) be done". ELEVENTH STEP Pg. 86 NIGHT After mediation on the day just completed, "We ask God's forgiveness and inquire what corrective measures should be taken." Pg. 86 MORNING Before we begin our day, "we ask God to direct our thinking, especially asking that it be divorced from self-pity, dishonest or self-seeking motives." Pg. 86 MORNING In thinking about our day, "We ask God for inspiration, an intuitive thought or decision". Pg. 87 MORNING We usually conclude the period of mediation with a prayer that we be shown all through the day what our next step is to be, that we be given whatever we need to take care of such problems. We especially ask for freedom from self-will, and are careful to make no requests for ourselves only We may ask for ourselves, however, if others will be helped. We are careful never to pray for our own selfish ends. Pg. 87 - 88 ALL DAY As we go through the day we pause, when agitated or doubtful, and ask for the right thought or action. TWELFTH STEP Pg. 164 Ask Him in your morning meditation what you can do each day for the man who is still sick. The answers will come IF your own house is in order. Pg. 102 Your job now is to be at the place where you may be of maximum helpfulness to others, so never hesitate to go anywhere if you can be helpful. You should not hesitate to visit the most sordid spot on earth on such an errand. Keep on the firing line of life with these motives and God will keep you unharmed. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4216. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Hospital costs for Alcoholics at Town''s Hospital in 1934 From: lester112985 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/7/2007 1:26:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Bill Wilson's discharge slip on page 104 in Pass It On states $125.00 for 7 days of treatment. Happy 24 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4217. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Big Book Prayers From: george brown . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/6/2007 4:25:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From George Brown, mrjamesc1989, and Jay Lawyer - - - - From: george brown (gbaa487 at yahoo.com) Besides the obvious places, i.e. 3rd and 7th step prayer, I've been told that wherever you see the word "ask" that we are being instructed to pray. - - - - From: mrjamesc1989@aol.com (mrjamesc1989 at aol.com) 3rd step prayer page 63 and 7th step prayer page 76 - - - - From: "Jay Lawyer" (ejlawyer at midtel.net) My own handout sheet for sponsees that have done the work. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4218. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Hospital costs for Alcoholics at Town''s Hospital in 1934 From: Jay Pees . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/7/2007 2:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In a lead I heard on tape of Bill, that his brother-in-law, Dr Leonard Strong, paid for his time in the hospital. I have seen nothing in print on that. - - - - The question that was asked: Also, I have been searching for some reference to how Bill paid for his visits to Towns Hospital. Can you give me any information or steer me toward materials that may hold the answer? I have read that Towns was a pretty first class and expensive private hospital Thanks, God Bless Ben H, Tulsa, OK IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4219. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Hospital costs for Alcoholics at Town''s Hospital in 1934 From: Tom White . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/7/2007 2:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Ben: I think it was top of the heap in those days. It would seem, I'm sure, unreally low in price in terms of 2007 dollars. But you have to use a multiple (easily obtained from a govt. website) to get from 1935 dollars to today's dollars. I use a rough measure: a nickel candy bar in 1935 would be anywhere from 50 cents to 95 cents today. And remember, enormous gains in automation and other stuff would have tended to keep the price low on things like candy bars. I think it's clear that even at the end Bill (and Bob too) were hooked up with enough of the establishment to have been still a distance from skid row, but it was waiting. Tom W. Odessa, TX IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4220. . . . . . . . . . . . St. Francis Prayer written in 1912 From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/7/2007 11:18:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In addition to quotation mistakenly attributed to Spencer, Mel did call to my attention that the St. Francis prayer is a modern prayer that has been wrongly attributed to St. Francis. Bill W. used it in the 12and12. - - - - From the moderator: Glenn C. (South Bend, IN) Checking through our Past Messages, I can't find a quick summary of what is currently known about the authorship of the St. Francis Prayer, so let me give one here. It was not actually written by the medieval saint. The earliest known version only dates back to 1912. I have read that there were early copies of this prayer printed on little cards with a picture of St. Francis on the other side of the card, which is where the prayer got connected with that saint's name. The Wikipedia account of what is known about the prayer seems to be fairly accurate, so I will just quote that: - - - - Prayer of Saint Francis in Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prayer_of_St._Francis The Prayer of Saint Francis is a Christian prayer for Peace widely attributed to the 13th century saint Francis of Assisi, although the prayer in its present form cannot be traced back further than 1912, when it was printed in France in French, in a small spiritual magazine called La Clochette (The Little Bell), as an anonymous prayer, as demonstrated by Dr Christian Renoux in 2001. The prayer has been known in USA since 1936 and Cardinal Francis Spellman distributed billions of copies of the prayer during the WW II. It was the beginning of its international career. The original version of the prayer is the following : Belle prière à faire pendant la Messe Seigneur, faites de moi un instrument de votre paix. Là où il y a de la haine, que je mette l’amour. Là où il y a l’offense, que je mette le pardon. Là où il y a la discorde, que je mette l’union. Là où il y a l’erreur, que je mette la vérité. Là où il y a le doute, que je mette la foi. Là où il y a le désespoir, que je mette l’espérance. Là où il y a les ténèbres, que je mette votre lumière. Là où il y a la tristesse, que je mette la joie. Ô Maître, que je ne cherche pas tant à être consolé qu’à consoler, à être compris qu’à comprendre, à être aimé qu’à aimer, car c’est en donnant qu’on reçoit, c’est en s’oubliant qu’on trouve, c’est en pardonnant qu’on est pardonné, c’est en mourant qu’on ressuscite à l’éternelle vie. La Clochette, n° 12, déc. 1912, p. 285. More than 100 different English versions of the text exist. One well known translation is found in Chapter 11 of the "Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions," a book published by AA Services (Alcoholics Anonymous). Lord, make me a channel of thy peace; that where there is hatred, I may bring love; that where there is wrong, I may bring the spirit of forgiveness; that where there is discord, I may bring harmony; that where there is error, I may bring truth; that where there is doubt, I may bring faith; that where there is despair, I may bring hope; that where there are shadows, I may bring light; that where there is sadness, I may bring joy. Lord, grant that I may seek rather to comfort than to be comforted; to understand, than to be understood; to love, than to be loved. For it is by self-forgetting that one finds. It is by forgiving that one is forgiven. It is by dying that one awakens to eternal life. Amen. The hymn version of Make Me A Channel of Your Peace is an anthem of the Royal British Legion and is usually sung every year at the Service of Remembrance in November at the Royal Albert Hall, London. It goes as follows: Make me a channel of your peace, Where there is hatred let me bring your love, Where there is injury your pardon Lord, And where there's doubt true faith in you. Lord grant that I may never seek, So much to be consoled as to console, To be understood; as to understand, To be loved as to love with all my soul. Make me a channel of your peace, Where there is hatred let me bring your love, Where there is injury your pardon Lord, And where there's doubt true faith in you. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4221. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Hospital costs for Alcoholics at Town''s Hospital in 1934 From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/7/2007 3:29:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII At 12:26 4/7/2007 , lester112985 wrote: >Bill Wilson's discharge slip on page 104 >in Pass It On states $125.00 for 7 days of >treatment. This site's inflation adjuster says $1.00 in 1935 would be equivalent to $14.85 in 2007 dollars. $125 x 14.85 = $1,856.25 This is in line with estimates of a Big Book's price of around $50.00 today if the price kept up with inflation. Tommy IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4222. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Hospital costs for Alcoholics at Town''s Hospital From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/7/2007 11:41:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Here is a source that shows how low wages were in the United States in the 1930s. In the 1930s, organized labor unions ( http://www.wisegeek.com/how-did-labor-unions-start.htm ) along with the Democratic politicians who supported them, began to demand a standardized minimum wage for all workers. In 1935, President Franklin Roosevelt proposed the first federal minimum wage under his National Recovery Act. This act called for a minimum wage of 25 cents per hour. The Supreme Court struck down the National Recovery Act as unconstitutional, rendering the minimum wage unenforceable. In 1938, the Fair Labor Standards Act reinstated the same 25 cent federal minimum wage, along with the legal mechanisms necessary to adjust it over time. At first this act only covered a few transportation and agricultural industries, but later amendments included service workers and general laborers. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4223. . . . . . . . . . . . conference-approved From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/8/2007 10:42:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does anyone have a copy of the article published in Box 4-5-9 from the mid 1970's entitled "What is Conference Approved Literature?" I believe it was from the August 1976 edition. I have a copy of it somewhere stored in a box but can't find it at the moment. It appears from meetings I have gone to,lately and from some posts on the Internet, there has to be a reminder of what exactly conference approval really means. Some AA members of today tout loudly and with venom that conference approval means that ONLY conference approved literature should be read by AA members. No mention of so-called non-approved materials should be made at meetings and some even mention that they have seen official correspondence from GSO/AAWS stating that ONLY conference-approved literature is allowed at meetings. Can someone post that article as it is an official AAWS document defining policy on the use, reading of and having literature other than conference-approved at meetings. Also, does anyone have any documentation from AAWS or the GSC reversing that position stated in Box 4-5-9 and thus stating that AA does oppose non-conference approved literature and its use by AA members. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4224. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: RE: Hospital costs for Alcoholics at Town''s Hospital in 1934 From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/8/2007 10:20:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Charles B Towns and the Towns Hospital (which includes Dr William D Silkworth) played a key role in a number of facets of AA history. Source references: AABB - Alcoholics Anonymous, the Big Book, AAWS AACOA - AA Comes of Age, AAWS AGAA - The Akron Genesis of Alcoholics Anonymous, by Dick B BW-RT - Bill W by Robert Thomsen BW-FH - Bill W by Francis Hartigan BW-40 - Bill W My First 40 Years, autobiography EBBY - Ebby the Man Who Sponsored Bill W by Mel B GB - Getting Better Inside Alcoholics Anonymous by Nan Robertson GTBT - Grateful to Have Been There by Nell Wing LOH - The Language of the Heart, AA Grapevine Inc LR - Lois Remembers, by Lois Wilson NG - Not God, by Ernest Kurtz NW - New Wine, by Mel B PIO - Pass It On, AAWS RAA - The Roots of Alcoholics Anonymous, by Bill Pittman SD - Slaying the Dragon, by William L White SM - AA Service Manual and Twelve Concepts for World Service, AAWS SW - Silkworth - the Little Doctor Who Loved Drunks, by Dale Mitchell Past dollar amounts below are converted to 2006 dollar values expressed as "($nnn today)" using consumer price index (CPI) conversion factors offered, via the internet, by Professor Robert C Sahr, Oregon State University at Corvallis. http://oregonstate.edu/cla/polisci/faculty/sahr/infcf16652007.pdf Timeline: 1862:- Charles B. Towns was born on a small farm in central GA. (RAA 84) 1901: The Charles B Towns Hospital for Drug and Alcohol Addictions opened in NYC. It was a private "drying out" hospital for the affluent. It initially opened on 81st and 82nd Streets and later moved to 293 Central Park West. Towns also later opened an annex (behind the Central Park facility) at 119 W 81st St to provide treatment for patients of "moderate means." Hospital fees had to be paid in advance, or be guaranteed. Treatment fees for alcoholism ran from $75 to $150 in the main hospital ($1,705 to $3,409 today) and $50 ($1,136 today) in the annex. (SD 84-85, SW 125) Note: there appears to be evidence that Bill W had four admissions to Towns hospital although history material distributed by GSO says three admissions. 1930: Neurologist, Dr William Duncan Silkworth (nicknamed "Silky") after losing his investments and savings in the stock market crash, started work at Towns Hospital earning $40 a week ($482 today). Charles Towns did not see eye to eye with Silkworth on alcoholism as an illness. (PIO 101, SW 30-31) (NG 22 says Silkworth arrived in 1924) 1933: Autumn, Lois, now earning $22.50 a week at Macy's ($352 today) turned to her brother-in-law Dr Leonard V Strong, who arranged, and paid for, Bill W's first admission to Towns Hospital. Bill was subjected to the "belladonna cure." The regimen primarily involved "purging and puking" aided by, among other things, castor oil. Belladonna, a hallucinogen, was used to ease the symptoms of alcohol withdrawal. (PIO 98-101, LR 85, BW-40 104, NG 14-15, 310, BW-FH 50, BW-RT 174) 1934: July (?), Bill W's second admission to Towns Hospital (again paid by Dr Leonard V Strong). Bill met Dr Silkworth for the first time. Silkworth explained the obsession and allergy of alcoholism but Bill started drinking again almost immediately upon discharge. Bill was unemployable, $50,000 in debt ($757,576 today) suicidal and drinking around the clock. (AACOA 52, PIO 106-108, BW-40 114-117, NG 15, 310, BW-FH 50-55) September 17, Bill W's third admission to Towns Hospital (again paid by Dr Leonard V Strong). Dr Silkworth pronounced Bill as hopeless and informed Lois that Bill would likely have to be committed. Bill left the hospital a deeply frightened man and sheer terror kept him sober. He found a little work on Wall St, which began to restore his badly shattered confidence. (PIO 106-109, LR 87, AACOA vii, 56, BW-RT 176-177, NG 15, 310, BW-FH 4-5, 54-55) December 11, Bill W (age 39) decided to go back to Towns Hospital and had his last drink (four bottles of beer purchased on the way). He got financial help from his mother, Emily, for the hospital bill. (AACOA 61-62, LOH 197, RAA 152, NG 19, 311, NW 23, PIO 119-120, GB 31). (Note: the 7-day hospital bill of $125 shown on PIO 104 would be $1,894 today). December 14, Ebby visited Bill W at Towns Hospital and told him about the Oxford Group principles. After Ebby left, Bill fell into a deep depression (his "deflation at depth") and had a profound spiritual experience after crying out "If there be a God, will he show himself." Dr Silkworth later assured Bill he was not crazy and told him to hang on to what he had found. In a lighter vein, Bill and others would later refer to this as his "white flash" or "hot flash" experience. (AABB 13-14, AACOA vii, 13, BW-40 141-148, NG 19-20, NW 23-24, PIO 120-124, GTBT 111, LOH 278-279) December 15, Ebby (or possibly Rowland Hazard) brought Bill W a copy of William James' book The Varieties of Religious Experience. Bill was deeply inspired by the book. It revealed three key points for recovery: 1) calamity or complete defeat in some vital area of life (what we today call "hitting bottom"), 2) admission of defeat (what we today call "surrender") and 3) appeal to a higher power for help (what we today call "acceptance"). The book strongly influenced early AAs and is cited in the Big Book. (AACOA 62-64, LOH 279, EBBY 70, SI 26, BW-40 150-152, NG 20-24, 312-313, NW 24-25, PIO 124-125, GTBT 111-112, AABB 28) December 18, Bill W left Towns Hospital and began working with drunks. He and Lois attended Oxford Group meetings with Ebby T and Shep C at Calvary House. The Rev Sam Shoemaker was the rector at the Calvary Church (the OG's US headquarters). The church was on 4th Ave (now Park Ave) and 21st St. Calvary House (where OG meetings were usually held) was at 61 Gramercy Park. Calvary Mission was located at 346 E 23rd St. (AABB 14-16, AACOA vii, LR 197, BW-40 155-160, NG 24-25, PIO 127, GB 32-33, AGAA 144) December (late), after Oxford Group meetings, Bill W and other OG alcoholics met at Stewart's Cafeteria near the Calvary Mission. Attendees included Rowland H and Ebby T. (BW-RT 207, BW-40 160, AAGA 141-142, NG 314) 1935: Early, Bill W worked with alcoholics at the Calvary Mission and Towns Hospital, emphasizing his "hot flash" spiritual experience. Alcoholic Oxford Group members began meeting at his home on Clinton St. Bill had no success sobering up others. (AACOA vii, AABB, BW-FH 69, PIO 131-133) April, Bill W had a talk with Dr Silkworth who advised him to stop preaching about his "hot flash" experience and hit the alcoholics hard with the medical view. Silkworth advised Bill to break down the strong egos of alcoholics by telling them about the obsession that condemned them to drink and allergy that condemned them to go mad or die. It would then be easier to get them to accept the spiritual solution. (AACOA 13, 67-68, BW-RT 211, NG 25-26, PIO 133) Winter, Henry (Hank) Parkhurst (Big Book Story - The Unbeliever) and John Henry Fitzhugh (Fitz) Mayo (Big Book Story - Our Southern Friend) sobered up at Towns Hospital. Hank and Fitz provided a big help to Bill Wm over the next few years. Hank started AA in NJ at his house and Fitz started AA in Washington, DC (AACOA 16-17, 74, LR 101, BW-RT 225-226, NG 43-44) (PIO 191 says 1937) 1936: December, Charles Towns offered Bill W a very lucrative job at his hospital as a lay alcoholism therapist. Bill wanted it. The question was presented to the NY group meeting in Bill's home. They rejected it. This was the emergence of the Traditions principle "God speaking in the group conscience is to be our final authority." (AACOA 100-102, LR 197, BW-RT 232-234, NG 63-64, PIO 175-177) 1938: September, board Trustee Frank Amos arranged a meeting between Bill W and Eugene Exman (Religious Editor of Harper Brothers publishers). Exman offered Bill a $1,500 advance ($21,429 today) on the rights to the book. The Alcoholic Foundation Board urged acceptance of the offer. Instead, Hank P and Bill formed Works Publishing Co. and sold stock at $25 par value ($357 today). 600 shares were issued: Hank and Bill received 200 shares each, 200 shares were sold to others. Later, 30 shares of preferred stock, at $100 par value ($1,300 today) were sold as well. To mollify the board, it was decided that the author's royalty (which would ordinarily be Bill's) could go to the Alcoholic Foundation. (LR 197, BW-FH 116-119, SM S6, PIO 193-195, AACOA 157, 188) Encouraged by Dr Silkworth, Charles Towns loaned Hank and Bill $2,500 for the book. It was later increased to $4,000. ($57,143 today). (PIO 196, SM S7, LOH 176, AACOA 13-14, 153-159) 1939: September 30, Liberty Magazine, headed by Fulton Oursler, carried a piece titled Alcoholics and God by Morris Markey (who was influenced to write the article by Charles Towns). It generated about 800 inquiries from around the nation. Oursler (author of The Greatest Story Ever Told) became good friends with Bill W and later served as a Trustee and member of the Grapevine editorial board. (AACOA 176-178, LOH 145, 180-183 BW-FH 127-129, PIO 223-224) 1945: October 20, Dr William Duncan Silkworth was hired as director of alcoholic treatment at the Knickerbocker Hospital in NYC. He worked at both the Towns and Knickerbocker Hospitals until his death in 1951. Alcoholics were referred to the "AA Ward" at Knickerbocker Hospital by the NY Intergroup Association. (SW 83, AACOA 206) 1947: February 20, Charles B Towns died. (SD 86) Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jay Pees Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2007 1:17 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: Hospital costs for Alcoholics at Town's Hospital in 1934 In a lead I heard on tape of Bill, that his brother-in-law, Dr Leonard Strong, paid for his time in the hospital. I have seen nothing in print on that. - - - - The question that was asked: Also, I have been searching for some reference to how Bill paid for his visits to Towns Hospital. Can you give me any information or steer me toward materials that may hold the answer? I have read that Towns was a pretty first class and expensive private hospital Thanks, God Bless Ben H, Tulsa, OK Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4225. . . . . . . . . . . . Camel Pins From: oys.jerry5672 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/9/2007 3:38:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I was recently doing some research on sobriety lapel pins and talked to a employee at Wendell's located in Anoka MN. (They were formerly located in Minneapolis MN.). She put me onto a man named Bill W. (Ironic or Coincidence) that worked for Wendell's. He shared with me that a man named Frank B. made the mold for the Camel Pin. Frank was a member of the Mother Club in Minneapolis (Now known as 2218). The pins in turn were made by Jo Hantigans Jewelry which I believe was located in Minneapolis at the time. They are now located in Crystal MN. and currently have pins in stock. The oldest one I have was my fathers and it has a screw on back and those made today have a clutch back. They are dark maroon in color rimed in gold with 24 in the center and approx. 3/8 X 3/8 of an inch in size. I purchased some of them a number of years ago at a cost of $3.00 to $6.00. Therefore from my perception the Birthplace/ Orgin of the Camel Pin is Minneapolis, Minnesota, in the 1940's. At this point in time again from my perception I do not believe that Frank B. made the mold. I would tend to believe that Frank designed the pin. As a Goldsmith would have made the mold. I plan on visiting Jo Hantigans to gather more information. Which means that "More Will Be Revealed". Jerry Oys Southern Minnesota Area 36 Archivist IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4226. . . . . . . . . . . . Date of White Light experience at Towns From: smithdewan . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/9/2007 3:53:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Do we know the exact date of Bill's mystical experience and how was it determined? I have only seen Towns admittance and release dates in print. Thanks Jack S. - - - - From the moderator: Message 3890 from chesbayman56@yahoo.com (chesbayman56 at yahoo.com) gives these dates: Dec 11, 1934 - Bill admitted to Towns Hosp 4th/last time Dec 12, 1934 - Bill has Spiritual Experience at Towns Hospital. But in messages which appeared later on, the commemoration ceremony seems to have been set on December 10th: Message 3938 from mweemwow@yahoo.com (mweemwow at yahoo.com) Message 3920 from Robt Woodson (wdywdsn at sbcglobal.net) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4227. . . . . . . . . . . . Gay groups listed in schedules From: Li Lightfoot . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/9/2007 6:15:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hey Folks: I am working on an article to be published in the San Francisco Fellowship's newsletter on the first Gay groups in A.A. We know that there was a lot of controversy about listing Gay and Lesbian Groups in the schedules and that this was eventually overcome. Does anyone know the details of this history or know where I might find out about it? Thanks, Li Lightfoot The Point Committee IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4228. . . . . . . . . . . . Lewis F. Presnall: The Search for Serenity From: ckbudnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/10/2007 11:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A friend gave me a copy of "The Search For Serenity and How to Achieve It" by Lewis F. Presnall (1959), published by the Utah Alcoholism Foundation. He says he used to see the book in the rooms when he got sober 30 years ago. I was curious if anyone has any additional information about the author, the book or its place in AA history. Thanks, Chris B. Raleigh, NC IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4229. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: St. Francis Prayer written in 1912 From: silkworthdotnet . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/12/2007 10:22:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dr. Renoux' research on the St Francis of Assisi prayer. The Original Text of this very popular Prayer and the history of its origin: The Origin of the Peace Prayer of St. Francis* by Dr. Christian Renoux, Associate Professor of the University of Orleans, France Original Text of the Peace Prayer of St. Francis Belle prière à faire pendant la Messe Seigneur, faites de moi un instrument de votre paix. Là où il y a de la haine, que je mette l'amour. Là où il y a l'offense, que je mette le pardon. Là où il y a la discorde, que je mette l'union. Là où il y a l'erreur, que je mette la vérité. Là où il y a le doute, que je mette la foi. Là où il y a le désespoir, que je mette l'espérance. Là où il y a les ténèbres, que je mette votre lumière. Là où il y a la tristesse, que je mette la joie. Ô Maître, que je ne cherche pas tant à être consolé qu'à consoler, à être compris qu'à comprendre, à être aimé qu'à aimer, car c'est en donnant qu'on reçoit, c'est en s'oubliant qu'on trouve, c'est en pardonnant qu'on est pardonné, c'est en mourant qu'on ressuscite à l'éternelle vie. Source: La Clochette, n° 12, déc. 1912, p. 285. Origin of this Prayer The first appearance of the Peace Prayer occurred in France in 1912 in a small spiritual magazine called La Clochette (The Little Bell). It was published in Paris by a Catholic association known as La Ligue de la Sainte- Messe (The Holy Mass League), founded in 1901 by a French priest, Father Esther Bouquerel (1855-1923). The prayer bore the title of 'Belle prière à faire pendant la messe' (A Beautiful Prayer to Say During the Mass), and was published anonymously. The author could possibly have been Father Bouquerel himself, but the identity of the author remains a mystery. The prayer was sent in French to Pope Benedict XV in 1915 by the French Marquis Stanislas de La Rochethulon. This was soon followed by its 1916 appearance, in Italian, in L'Osservatore Romano [the Vatican's daily newspaper]. Around 1920, the prayer was printed by a French Franciscan priest on the back of an image of St. Francis with the title 'Prière pour la paix' (Prayer for Peace) but without being attributed to the saint. Between the two world wars, the prayer circulated in Europe and was translated into English. Its has been attributed the first time to saint Francis in 1927 by a French Protestant Movement, Les Chevaliers du Prince de la Paix (The Knights of the Prince of Peace), founded by Étienne Bach (1892-1986). The first translation in English that we know of appeared in 1936 in Living Courageously, a book by Kirby Page (1890-1957), a Disciple of Christ minister, pacifist, social evangelist, writer and editor of The World Tomorrow (New York City). Page clearly attributed the text to St. Francis of Assisi. During World War II and immediately after, this prayer for peace began circulating widely as the Prayer of St. Francis, specially through Francis Cardinal Spellman's books, and over the years has gained a worldwide popularity with people of all faiths. For more information : see the book by Dr. Christian Renoux, La prière pour la paix attribuée à saint François : une énigme à résoudre, Paris, Editions franciscaines, 2001, 210 p. : 12.81 euros + shipping (ISBN : 2-85020-096-4). -- Order From: Éditions franciscaines, 9, rue Marie-Rose F-75014 Paris. Author's Note: Dr. Christian Renoux is continuing his research on the propagation of this prayer, and is looking for new information about its publication in English between 1925 and 1945, and in all other languages between 1912 and today. If you have such information, please contact him at contacted at this email address. --------------------------------- The Franciscan Archive wishes to thank Dr. Renoux for permission to publish the Original Text of this very popular Prayer and the history of its origin. --------------------------------- *From The Franciscan Archive Yours in service, Jim M. Baileygc23@aol.com wrote: In addition to quotation mistakenly attributed to Spencer, Mel did call to my attention that the St. Francis prayer is a modern prayer that has been wrongly attributed to St. Francis. Bill W. used it in the 12and12. - - - - From the moderator: Glenn C. (South Bend, IN) Checking through our Past Messages, I can't find a quick summary of what is currently known about the authorship of the St. Francis Prayer, so let me give one here. It was not actually written by the medieval saint. The earliest known version only dates back to 1912. I have read that there were early copies of this prayer printed on little cards with a picture of St. Francis on the other side of the card, which is where the prayer got connected with that saint's name. The Wikipedia account of what is known about the prayer seems to be fairly accurate, so I will just quote that: - - - - Prayer of Saint Francis in Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prayer_of_St._Francis The Prayer of Saint Francis is a Christian prayer for Peace widely attributed to the 13th century saint Francis of Assisi, although the prayer in its present form cannot be traced back further than 1912, when it was printed in France in French, in a small spiritual magazine called La Clochette (The Little Bell), as an anonymous prayer, as demonstrated by Dr Christian Renoux in 2001. The prayer has been known in USA since 1936 and Cardinal Francis Spellman distributed billions of copies of the prayer during the WW II. It was the beginning of its international career. The original version of the prayer is the following : Belle prière à faire pendant la Messe Seigneur, faites de moi un instrument de votre paix. Là où il y a de la haine, que je mette l’amour. Là où il y a l’offense, que je mette le pardon. Là où il y a la discorde, que je mette l’union. Là où il y a l’erreur, que je mette la vérité. Là où il y a le doute, que je mette la foi. Là où il y a le désespoir, que je mette l’espérance. Là où il y a les ténèbres, que je mette votre lumière. Là où il y a la tristesse, que je mette la joie. Ô Maître, que je ne cherche pas tant à être consolé qu’à consoler, à être compris qu’à comprendre, à être aimé qu’à aimer, car c’est en donnant qu’on reçoit, c’est en s’oubliant qu’on trouve, c’est en pardonnant qu’on est pardonné, c’est en mourant qu’on ressuscite à l’éternelle vie. La Clochette, n° 12, déc. 1912, p. 285. More than 100 different English versions of the text exist. One well known translation is found in Chapter 11 of the "Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions," a book published by AA Services (Alcoholics Anonymous). Lord, make me a channel of thy peace; that where there is hatred, I may bring love; that where there is wrong, I may bring the spirit of forgiveness; that where there is discord, I may bring harmony; that where there is error, I may bring truth; that where there is doubt, I may bring faith; that where there is despair, I may bring hope; that where there are shadows, I may bring light; that where there is sadness, I may bring joy. Lord, grant that I may seek rather to comfort than to be comforted; to understand, than to be understood; to love, than to be loved. For it is by self-forgetting that one finds. It is by forgiving that one is forgiven. It is by dying that one awakens to eternal life. Amen. The hymn version of Make Me A Channel of Your Peace is an anthem of the Royal British Legion and is usually sung every year at the Service of Remembrance in November at the Royal Albert Hall, London. It goes as follows: Make me a channel of your peace, Where there is hatred let me bring your love, Where there is injury your pardon Lord, And where there's doubt true faith in you. Lord grant that I may never seek, So much to be consoled as to console, To be understood; as to understand, To be loved as to love with all my soul. Make me a channel of your peace, Where there is hatred let me bring your love, Where there is injury your pardon Lord, And where there's doubt true faith in you. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4230. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Camel Pins From: johnpublico . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/12/2007 9:38:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Jerry, Thanks for the great info about the Camel Pins. After snooping around the internet for a bit, I think the jewelry store is Hantgen's Jewelry. They are still in Minneapolis, at the Crystal Shopping Centre. (I think Crystal is a neighborhood or town within the city limits, like Fridley). Phone number is (763) 537-7233. Let us know what you find out and whether they take mail orders (I'm in North Carolina). John K. --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "oys.jerry5672" wrote: > > I was recently doing some research on sobriety > lapel pins and talked to a employee at > Wendell's located in Anoka MN. (They were > formerly located in Minneapolis MN.). She > put me onto a man named Bill W. (Ironic or > Coincidence) that worked for Wendell's. He > shared with me that a man named Frank B. made > the mold for the Camel Pin. Frank was a > member of the Mother Club in Minneapolis > (Now known as 2218). The pins in turn were > made by Jo Hantigans Jewelry which I believe > was located in Minneapolis at the time. They > are now located in Crystal MN. and currently > have pins in stock. The oldest one I have > was my fathers and it has a screw on back and > those made today have a clutch back. They > are dark maroon in color rimed in gold with > 24 in the center and approx. 3/8 X 3/8 of an > inch in size. I purchased some of them a > number of years ago at a cost of $3.00 to > $6.00. > > Therefore from my perception the Birthplace/ > Orgin of the Camel Pin is Minneapolis, > Minnesota, in the 1940's. > > At this point in time again from my perception > I do not believe that Frank B. made the mold. > I would tend to believe that Frank designed > the pin. As a Goldsmith would have made the > mold. > > I plan on visiting Jo Hantigans to gather > more information. Which means that "More > Will Be Revealed". > > Jerry Oys > Southern Minnesota Area 36 Archivist > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4231. . . . . . . . . . . . Did Dr. Silkworth ever treat women alcoholics? From: Des Green . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/12/2007 4:53:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Greetings, Are there any records that show lady alcoholics being treated by Dr Silkworth, at Towns or otherwise ? Best wishes to all Des IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4232. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: conference-approved From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/12/2007 2:38:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The information you are looking for is currently published in "The Group Handbook" (cost $11.00 publication M-36 from GSO). The handbook is sent to every new group that registers with GSO. It contains two pages titled "Conference-Approved Literature." You can also check message 3369 for a past AAHL posting that contains the information. The key paragraph of interest regarding the term "Conference-approved" states: "The term has no relation to material not published by G.S.O. It does not ["not" is underlined] imply Conference disapproval of other material about A.A. A great deal of literature helpful to alcoholics is published by others, and A.A. does not try to tell any individual member what he or she may or may not read." There is a substantial amount of AA literature that is not Conference-approved: *Grapevine (and its non-English counterparts) *Box 459 *Guidelines (the "yellow sheets") *Markings (the GSO Archives newsletter) *About AA (PI releases) *Directories *Advisory Actions of the General Service Conference of AA (M-39) *Final reports of the General Service Conference Literature published by GSOs other than the US/Canada and AAWS *Final reports of the World Service Conference *Memento booklets from International Conventions *Literature catalogs and flyers (AAWS and Grapevine) *Non-English interpretations of books/pamphlets *Various GSO publications called "service pieces." *Publications by Central Offices and Areas. All the above are a valid part of "AA literature." As an item of interest the term "Conference- approved" would likely be better stated as "Conference-committee-approved." It is a rare, rare event when all Delegates at a Conference get a chance to review a piece of literature prior to voting on it. The review is usually done by a committee of several Delegates. The remainder of the Delegates typically vote, sight unseen, for/against the literature based on the recommendation of the committee (that's how the Foreword to the 4th edition statement about on-line meetings and the punctuation changes in "Dr Bob's Nightmare" and other changes slipped past Conference review). While all the Delegates vote on the literature, only a fraction of them actually gets to read it prior to voting. How each group deals with Conference-approved or non-Conference-approved literature is a matter of group conscience (Tradition 2 is the means to the ultimate authority) and is not dictated by any Conference ("Our leaders are but trusted servants they do not govern"). No Conference would presume to tell a group what to do. Some Conference advisory actions of interest that would attest to this: 1951 It was recommended that: In future years, A.A. textbook literature should have Conference approval. (Agenda Committee) Prior to the vote on this subject, it was pointed out that adoption of the suggestion would not preclude the continued issuance of various printed documents by non-Foundation sources. No desire to review, edit or censor non-Foundation material is implied. The objective is to provide, in the future, a means of distinguishing Foundation literature from that issued locally or by non-A.A. interests. 1961: The Committee recommended that G.S.O. explore the possibility of preparing a more adequate description of Conference-approved literature. 1964: Regarding pamphlets and literature other than that which is Conference-approved being displayed or sold at area and state conferences, it was the sense of the meeting that we have no authority in this area. It is to be noted that all Conference-approved literature should be made available at A.A. get-togethers. 1972: It be suggested that when a local A.A. facility (central office, intergroup, group, etc.) sells non-Conference-approved literature, it be clearly designated as such. The Conference has always voted to keep the two types of literature separate and clearly identified. It has never voted to ban non-Conference-approved literature. If you visit GSO in NY and go to the archives exhibit area, you will see an entire wall of book cases filled with literature that is not Conference-approved but very relevant to alcoholism and recovery. Visitors are encouraged to use the reading area to review them. My last visit was a few years ago but I don't think anything has changed. Cheers Arthur ************************************* AAHL Message 4223 "Mitchell K." (mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com) Does anyone have a copy of the article published in Box 4-5-9 from the mid 1970's entitled "What is Conference Approved Literature?" I believe it was from the August 1976 edition. I have a copy of it somewhere stored in a box but can't find it at the moment. It appears from meetings I have gone to,lately and from some posts on the Internet, there has to be a reminder of what exactly conference approval really means. Some AA members of today tout loudly and with venom that conference approval means that ONLY conference approved literature should be read by AA members. No mention of so-called non-approved materials should be made at meetings and some even mention that they have seen official correspondence from GSO/AAWS stating that ONLY conference-approved literature is allowed at meetings. Can someone post that article as it is an official AAWS document defining policy on the use, reading of and having literature other than conference-approved at meetings. Also, does anyone have any documentation from AAWS or the GSC reversing that position stated in Box 4-5-9 and thus stating that AA does oppose non-conference approved literature and its use by AA members. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4233. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: conference-approved From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/12/2007 7:36:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII WHAT DOES “CONFERENCE-APPROVED LITERATURE” MEAN? Service Material From G.S.O. "Conference-approved" – What It Means to You The term “Conference-approved” describes written or audiovisual material approved by the Conference for publication by G.S.O. This process assures that everything in such literature is in accord with A.A. principles. Conference-approved material always deals with the recovery program of Alcoholics Anonymous or with information about the A.A. Fellowship. The term has no relation to material not published by G.S.O. It does not imply Conference disapproval of other material about A.A. A great deal of literature helpful to alcoholics is published by others, and A.A. does not try to tell any individual member what he or she may or may not read. Conference approval assures us that a piece of literature represents solid A.A. experience. Any Conference-approved booklet or pamphlet goes through a lengthy and painstaking process, during which a variety of A.A.’s from all over the United States and Canada read and express opinions at every stage of production. How To Tell What Is and What Is Not Conference-approved Look for the statement on books, pamphlets and films: "This is A.A. General Service Conference-approved literature" All “A.A. Literature” Is Not Conference-approved Central offices and intergroups do write and distribute pamphlets or booklets that are not Conference-approved. If such pieces meet the needs of the local membership, they may be legitimately classified as "A.A. literature." There is no conflict between A.A. World Services, Inc. (A.A.W.S. – publishers of Conference-approved literature), and central offices or intergroups – rather they complement each other. The Conference does not disapprove of such material. G.S.O. does develop some literature that does not have to be approved by the Conference, such as service material, Guidelines and bulletins. Available at Most A.A. Groups Most local A.A. groups purchase and display a representative sampling of Conference-approval pamphlets, and usually carry a supply of hardcover books. Conference-approved literature may be available at central offices and intergroups, or it may be ordered directly from G.S.O. Groups normally offer pamphlets free of charge, and the books at cost. Copyright Conference-approved literature is copyrighted with the Copyright Office, Library of Congress, Washington, D.C., U.S.A. To insure the continued integrity of A.A. literature, and to make sure the A.A. recovery programs will not be distorted or diluted, permission to reprint must be obtained from A.A.W.S. in writing. However, A.A. newsletters, bulletins, or meeting lists have blanket permission to use the material, providing proper credit to insure that the copyrights of A.A. literature are protected. The A.A. Preamble is copyrighted by The A.A. Grapevine, Inc. (not by A.A. World Services). Beneath it, these words should appear: Reprinted with permission of the A.A. Grapevine, Inc. The Steps and Traditions should be followed by these words: Reprinted with Permission of A.A. World Services, Inc. ******************************** AAHL Message 4223 "Mitchell K." (mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com) Does anyone have a copy of the article published in Box 4-5-9 from the mid 1970's entitled "What is Conference Approved Literature?" I believe it was from the August 1976 edition. I have a copy of it somewhere stored in a box but can't find it at the moment. It appears from meetings I have gone to,lately and from some posts on the Internet, there has to be a reminder of what exactly conference approval really means. Some AA members of today tout loudly and with venom that conference approval means that ONLY conference approved literature should be read by AA members. No mention of so-called non-approved materials should be made at meetings and some even mention that they have seen official correspondence from GSO/AAWS stating that ONLY conference-approved literature is allowed at meetings. Can someone post that article as it is an official AAWS document defining policy on the use, reading of and having literature other than conference-approved at meetings. Also, does anyone have any documentation from AAWS or the GSC reversing that position stated in Box 4-5-9 and thus stating that AA does oppose non-conference approved literature and its use by AA members. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4234. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: conference-approved From: Gary Becktell . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/12/2007 12:09:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Gary Becktell, Jeff Your, James Blair, and Tom White - - - - From "Gary Becktell" (gk at kitcarson.net) Mitchell, Below is a little of that article, including the exact issue Volume and #. This is all I have: GSO Box 4-5-9 1978 (Volume 23, No 4) Any literature that pertains to the principles of AA or is approved by a Group Conscience - is perfectly acceptable to be read by any AA member or in an AA meeting. "WHAT CONFERENCED-APPROVED MEANS" GSO Box 4-5-9 1978 (Volume 23, No 4) AA's General Service Office said: "It does not mean the Conference disapproves of any other publications. Many local A.A. central offices publish their own meeting lists. A.A. as a whole does not oppose these, any more than A.A. disapproves of the Bible or any other publications from any source that A.A.'s find useful. What any A.A. member reads is no business of G.S.O., or of the Conference, naturally." - - - - From: Jeff Your (jyour at jcu.edu) From GSO Box 4-5-9 (Volume 23, No 4) "Any literature that pertains to the principles of AA or is approved by a GROUP CONSCIENCE - is perfectly acceptable to be read by any AA member or in an AA meeting." As cited at http://www.barefootsworld.net/aaconferenceapproved.html - - - - James Blair (jblair at videotron.ca) There have been strong Conference Advisory Actions on the display of non-conference approved literature but of course they are only suggestions :-) Jim - - - - From: Tom White (tomwhite at cableone.net) Mitchell: I wouldn't go looking for authoritative GSO "statements" on this subject, since the literature read at meetings is the business of the individual group and of no "governing" body, of which there ain't supposed to be any in AA. Hallelujah! Tom W. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4235. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Date of White Light experience at Towns From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/13/2007 9:34:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Bill W's sober date is December 11, 1934. See "Pass It On" pg 104 for an image of his discharge slip from Towns Hospital - it shows an "admitted" date of 12/11/34 and "discharged" date of 12/18/34. December 11, 1934 is the date Bill W had his last drink on the way to, and at, Towns Hospital. Bill's profound spiritual experience (as noted in several sources) occurred after he was visited by Ebby in Towns Hospital. Ebby's visit could have occurred anywhere from the day following Bill's admission to the hospital up to 2 or 3 days after. I personally lean toward December 14 as the date of Bill's experience (although it's a close toss-up with December 13 as the possible date). Different written sources give different inferences of a possible date. Specific dates in AA history are not the easiest to determine or reach consensus on (Dr Bob's sober date being a prime example of that). Following is (as best as I can reconstruct it, from a variety of written sources) a timeline of Bill W receiving a message of recovery from Ebby T and the beginning of his own carrying the message to other alcoholics. Source references: AABB (Alcoholics Anonymous, the Big Book), AACOA (AA Comes of Age), AGAA (The Akron Genesis of Alcoholics Anonymous, by Dick B) BW-RT (Bill W by Robert Thomsen), BW-FH (Bill W by Francis Hartigan), BW-40 (Bill W My First 40 Years, autobiography), EBBY (Ebby the Man Who Sponsored Bill W by Mel B), GB (Getting Better Inside Alcoholics Anonymous by Nan Robertson), GTBT (Grateful to Have Been There by Nell Wing), LOH (The Language of the Heart), LR (Lois Remembers, by Lois Wilson), NG (Not God, by Ernest Kurtz), NW (New Wine, by Mel B), PIO (Pass It On), RAA (The Roots of Alcoholics Anonymous, by Bill Pittman), SD (Slaying the Dragon, by William L White), SM (AA Service Manual and Twelve Concepts for World Service), SW (Silkworth - The Little Doctor Who Loved Drunks, by Dale Mitchell). Nov (late), Ebby T, while staying at the Calvary Mission and working with the Oxford Group, heard about Bill W’s problems with drinking. He phoned Lois who invited him over for dinner. (EBBY 66) Nov (late), Ebby visited Bill W at 182 Clinton St and shared his recovery experience "one alcoholic talking to another.” (AACOA vii, 58-59) A few days later, Ebby returned with Shep C. They both spoke to Bill about the Oxford Group. Bill did not think too highly of Shep. Lois recalled that Ebby visited several times, once even staying for dinner. (AACOA vii, NG 17-18, 311, BW-FH 57-58, NW 22-23, PIO 111-116, BW-RT 187-192) Dec 7, Bill W decided to investigate the Calvary Mission on 23rd St. He showed up drunk with a drinking companion found along the way (Alec the Finn). Bill kept interrupting the service wanting to speak. On the verge of being ejected, Ebby came by and fed Bill a plate of beans. Bill later joined the penitents and drunkenly “testified” at the meeting. (AACOA 59-60, BW-40 136-137, NG 18-19, BW-FH 60, NW 23, PIO 116-119, BW-RT 193-196, AGAA 156- 159, EBBY 66-69) Dec 11, Bill W (age 39) decided to go back to Towns Hospital and had his last drink (four bottles of beer purchased on the way). He got financial help from his mother, Emily, for the hospital bill. (AACOA 61-62, LOH 197, RAA 152, NG 19, 311, NW 23, PIO 119-120, GB 31). Dec 14 (possibly 13), Ebby visited Bill W at Towns Hospital and told him about the Oxford Group principles. After Ebby left, Bill fell into a deep depression (his “deflation at depth”) and had a profound spiritual experience after crying out “If there be a God, will he show himself.” Bill called Dr Silkworth to ask if he was going crazy. Dr Silkworth later assured Bill he was not crazy and told him to hang on to what he had found. In a lighter vein, Bill and others would later refer to this as his “white flash” or “hot flash” experience. (AABB 13-14, AACOA vii, 13, BW-40 141-148, NG 19-20, NW 23-24, PIO 120-124, GTBT 111, LOH 278-279) Note: and it sometimes raises the hackles of AA members, Bill W was subjected to something called the “belladonna cure.” The regimen primarily involved “purging and puking” aided by, among other things, castor oil. Belladonna, a hallucinogen, was used to ease the symptoms of alcohol withdrawal. (PIO 98-101, LR 85, BW-40 104, NG 14-15, 310, BW-FH 50, BW-RT 174). What role the belladonna may have played in Bill's experience is undetermined. Dec 15 (possibly 14), Ebby (or possibly Rowland H) brought Bill W a copy of William James' book "The Varieties of Religious Experience." Bill was deeply inspired by the book. It revealed three key points for recovery: 1) calamity or complete defeat in some vital area of life (hitting bottom), 2) admission of defeat (surrender) and 3) appeal to a higher power for help (acceptance). The book strongly influenced early AAs and is cited in the Big Book. (AACOA 62-64, LOH 279, EBBY 70, SI 26, BW-40 150-152, NG 20-24, 312-313, NW 24-25, PIO 124-125, GTBT 111-112, AABB 28) Dec 18, Bill W left Towns Hospital and began working with drunks. He and Lois attended Oxford Group meetings with Ebby T and Shep C at Calvary House. The Rev Sam Shoemaker was the rector at the Calvary Church (the OG’s US headquarters). The church was on 4th Ave (now Park Ave) and 21st Street. Calvary House (where OG meetings were usually held) was at 61 Gramercy Park. Calvary Mission was located at 346 E 23rd St. (AABB 14-16, AACOA vii, LR 197, BW-40 155-160, NG 24-25, PIO 127, GB 32-33, AGAA 144) Dec (late), after Oxford Group meetings, Bill W and other OG alcoholics met at Stewart’s Cafeteria near the Calvary Mission. Attendees included Rowland H and Ebby T. (BW-RT 207, BW-40 160, AAGA 141-142, NG 314) Cheers Arthur IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4236. . . . . . . . . . . . Non-conference-approved literature From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/13/2007 2:34:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Non-conference-approved literature: A short (not at all complete) selection of books on AA history drawn from Arthur Sheehan (messages 3370 and 4235), Robert Stonebraker, and others who have posted messages in the AAHistoryLovers in recent months. It is necessary to read works of this sort if one is to have a good knowledge of AA history. Yet most of these works will not be found on the shelves of ordinary commercial bookstores. If we do not make them available for AA members to browse through at AA intergroup offices and the like, most of our members will never even know of their existence. Akron Genesis of Alcoholics Anonymous by Dick B Bill W: A Different Kind of Hero by Tom White Bill W by Francis Hartigan Bill W by Robert Thomsen Bill W: My First 40 Years, autobiography Children of the Healer: Bob Smith and Sue Smith Windows by Christine Brewer Diary of Two Motorcycle Hobos by Lois Wilson, edited by Ellie Van V. Ebby the Man Who Sponsored Bill W by Mel B Getting Better Inside Alcoholics Anonymous by Nan Robertson Grateful to Have Been There by Nell Wing Harry Tiebout: The Collected Writings How It Worked: The Story of Clarence H. Snyder and ... Cleveland, Ohio by Mitchell K. Lois Remembers by Lois Wilson Lois Wilson Story: When Love Is Not Enough by William G. Borchert Mrs Marty Mann by Sally and David R Brown My Name Is Bill: Bill Wilson -- His Life and ... Alcoholics Anonymous by Susan Cheever My Search for Bill W by Mel B New Wine by Mel B Not God by Ernest Kurtz Roots of Alcoholics Anonymous by Bill Pittman Silkworth: The Little Doctor Who Loved Drunks by Dale Mitchell Sister Ignatia: Angel of Alcoholics Anonymous by Mary C Darrah Slaying the Dragon by William L White Soul of Sponsorship ... Fr. Ed Dowling, S.J. and Bill Wilson in Letters by Robert Fitzgerald Women Pioneers in 12 Step Recovery by Charlotte Hunter, Billye Jones, and Joan Ziegler IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4237. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: conference-approved From: james.bliss@comcast.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/13/2007 1:43:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII With respect to Arthur S's statement below: There is a very limited number of people who even have access to the literature with its changes prior to the vote (substantial changes or new literature). The Delegates may have an opportunity to review the material immediately prior to the vote, but the actual changes, or new literature, is only distributed to the people who are on the committee for formal review and input, and they make written recommendations regarding the changes. A point of interest here is that the groups (and therefore individual members) have no access to the literature (new or significant changes) prior to it being approved and published. Sort of goes against the concept of AA being run by the groups. Minor changes (punctuation or slight wording) are often published for review to the groups. It is just significant changes, rewrites and new literature which is not. I have been informed this is due to a fear of copyright issues and the material being purloined by others. Jim > It is a rare, rare event when all Delegates > at a Conference get a chance to review a piece > of literature prior to voting on it. The > review is usually done by a committee of > several Delegates. The remainder of the > Delegates typically vote, sight unseen, > for/against the literature based on the > recommendation of the committee (that's how > the Foreword to the 4th edition statement > about on-line meetings and the punctuation > changes in "Dr Bob's Nightmare" and other > changes slipped past Conference review). While > all the Delegates vote on the literature, only > a fraction of them actually gets to read it > prior to voting. > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4238. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Stewart''s Cafeteria and the Alcoholic Squadron From: johnlawlee . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/13/2007 2:36:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Arthur S" wrote about the OG alcoholics going to Stewart's Cafeteria after OG meetings. The "alcoholic squadron" of the OG used to meet in Stewart's Cafeteria in 1935, which was the exact period that the startup staff of the Partisan Review met in the same establishment late at night. The two groups no doubt interacted, as they stood in line for apple pie and coffee. I recall reading that Stewart's was open all night, and had an automat format. There must have been an interesting contrast in the discussions of the two groups, the drunks complaining about the "churchies" from the OG, and the communists complaining about the opium of the people. john lee where the Allegheny meets the Monongahela, to form the Ohio > Dec (late), after Oxford Group meetings, > Bill W and other OG alcoholics met at > Stewart's Cafeteria near the Calvary > Mission. Attendees included Rowland H and > Ebby T. (BW-RT 207, BW-40 160, AAGA 141-142, > NG 314) > > Cheers > Arthur > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4239. . . . . . . . . . . . AA in Australia Pt 2 and t/y Nell Wing From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/16/2007 9:32:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Post 1 shows the two documents that started AA formation outside the western hemisphere. Post 2 is my interpretation of the letters and also a remembrance of Nell Wing. The first letter was written by Dr Minogue to the American Journal of Psychiatry, asking for information about starting AA. The letter was forwarded to The Central office and Bill Wilson at the Vessay St and Cort.7-3159 as the phone number. I'm not sure if the writing on the 1st letter is Bills instructions to Bobbie Burger about what to write in her response, but the response give a good insight as to what AA was like during the Second World War.The letters were sent to me on a cd along with some tapes of early AA meetings in Australia by a friend Ron C-archivist for Australia. What made me think of this was an e mail I received from him about Nell Wing.He was good friends with her and still communicates with her Nephew Bill W.(not Wilson) I had sent him a card that the funeral home was giving out in "memory of Nell Wing." He wrote an article that was published for Australian AA's that I am sure he would have no problem with my sharing with fellow AAHL's.- Nell Wing was a non alcoholic servant of AA who was on her way to Mexico in 1947 to study sculpture and needed a part time job to earn some money to tide her over while she was studying. Nell had been discharged from the navy. She went into an employment agency and told them of her requirements. The person in the agency whispered to her that there was a job going in the office of Alcoholics Anonymous. There was not a lot known about AA at that time by the general public. I don't know what the person thought would happen to Nell but she was able to smile and say I'll take the job. As the story goes the rest is history. She became the receptionist in the AA office at Lexington Ave New York City. Later she became the Bill. Wilson's secretary for the next seventeen years until his death in January 1971. Nell then set up the Archives and worked there till 1982. I first met Nell in 1977 in the Archives and we became friends and corresponded until she went into assisted living in New Jersey. I told Nell that I would like to meet Lois Wilson. Nell rang Lois at Steppingstones and Lois graciously asks me to come up by train to Bedford Hills. Lois was a very small was a very small woman as most people would know. She was standing besides a big American car and I was wondering if she was going to drive. Not at that time knowing much about her story. She welcomed me in her Brooklyn accent and we drove off and Lois remarked that she had received a ticket for speeding when she was eighty years old. She was a very good driver although she could hardly see over the dashboard. I was blesses to correspond with Lois for the rest of her life and visited her many times. I traveled NYC regularly on ships and as a visitor. Nell Wing was the daughter that Lois and Bill never had although in a sense they had thousands of children. Nell was a companion of Loisâ for forty five years. She visited the Wilson's almost every weekend and a room off the living room is still known as Nellâs room. I visited Steppingstones sometimes with Nell and Lois was a good hostess. I had the privilege of sleeping in Nellâs room when I stayed with Lois. Nell was on the board of The Steppingstones Foundation which Lois set up in 1977 eleven years before she died in October 1988. It is open house for all who wish to visit all that is need is a phone call to Director of The Foundation Annah Perch. I was also fortunate to join Nell at couple of International Conventions and a couple dinners at the opening of the General Service Conference. I would imagine that Nell would have known Bill and Lois better than anyone as in her work she was Bills constant companion. She told me lots of stories about Bill and Lois most of them heart warming and some sad but always inspiring as time went on. Nellâs nephew has been a tower of strength for Nell as she grew older. There is a story that Nell looked after Bill W.(her nephew) and then Bill W.(her nephew) was looking after Nell. Bill has been a wonderful caretaker and has looked after Nell and her affairs for many years. It is great to know Bill and to be his friend. I feel very few people would know the difficult times for Nell when Bill Wilson was suffering his deep depressions. She did speak about his problems with a lot of love and compassion. Nell I will never forget your love and kindness to me. That is the person that you were and it was not just me but when I was in your company you extended that same love and kindness to others. I will never forget you Nell as you have touched my heart many, many times. I was able to visit Nell several times in her last years in New Jersey. I fully believe she is resting in peace with God for the work she did for Alcoholics Anonymous and in particular for Bill and Lois. She has gone to a well earned rest and reward. As Bill her beloved nephew stated she is now reunited with Bill and Lois. Nell you will always be in my heart. Ron C. - Australia I edited his response for clarity because one Bill W was Bill Wilson and the other Bill W. is Nell's nephew. I too am blessed to know Nell's nephew Bill and also Ron C. I hope to travel to Australia one day soon to not only visit that beautiful country but also to make a few meetings in a place that started AA outside of North America. Thank God for these people being placed in my life. Your's in Service, Shakey Mike Gwirtz going to Phoenix AZ, Sept 6-9 for the 11th National Archives Workshop ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4240. . . . . . . . . . . . That should be Johantgen''s Jewelry, not Hantgen''s From: johnpublico . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/12/2007 2:55:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I goofed. That should have been Johantgen, not Hantgen. John K. --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "johnpublico" wrote: > > Hi Jerry, > > Thanks for the great info about the Camel Pins. > > After snooping around the internet for a bit, > I think the jewelry store is Hantgen's Jewelry. > They are still in Minneapolis, at the Crystal > Shopping Centre. (I think Crystal is a > neighborhood or town within the city limits, > like Fridley). > > Phone number is (763) 537-7233. > > Let us know what you find out and whether > they take mail orders (I'm in North Carolina). > > John K. > > --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "oys.jerry5672" > wrote: > > > > I was recently doing some research on sobriety > > lapel pins and talked to a employee at > > Wendell's located in Anoka MN. (They were > > formerly located in Minneapolis MN.). She > > put me onto a man named Bill W. (Ironic or > > Coincidence) that worked for Wendell's. He > > shared with me that a man named Frank B. made > > the mold for the Camel Pin. Frank was a > > member of the Mother Club in Minneapolis > > (Now known as 2218). The pins in turn were > > made by Jo Hantigans Jewelry which I believe > > was located in Minneapolis at the time. They > > are now located in Crystal MN. and currently > > have pins in stock. The oldest one I have > > was my fathers and it has a screw on back and > > those made today have a clutch back. They > > are dark maroon in color rimed in gold with > > 24 in the center and approx. 3/8 X 3/8 of an > > inch in size. I purchased some of them a > > number of years ago at a cost of $3.00 to > > $6.00. > > > > Therefore from my perception the Birthplace/ > > Orgin of the Camel Pin is Minneapolis, > > Minnesota, in the 1940's. > > > > At this point in time again from my perception > > I do not believe that Frank B. made the mold. > > I would tend to believe that Frank designed > > the pin. As a Goldsmith would have made the > > mold. > > > > I plan on visiting Jo Hantigans to gather > > more information. Which means that "More > > Will Be Revealed". > > > > Jerry Oys > > Southern Minnesota Area 36 Archivist > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4241. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Non-conference-approved literature From: t . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/14/2007 12:24:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII notes taken from the AAWS publication [M-39]: ADVISORY ACTIONS OF THE GENERAL SERVICE CONFERENCE OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS In 1952, with full representation, the Conference reviewed and considered a number of policy problems affecting the movement as a whole and initiated a planned program of Conference-approved literature service. 1954 It was recommended that: All Conference-approved literature have on its face an identifying symbol. All reprints such as those reproducing material from Fortune, Saturday Evening Post and Good Housekeeping, bear the credit line at the top of the cover and that the cover be in white to distinguish such reprints from Conference-approved literature. 1964 It was recommended that: Regarding pamphlets and literature other than that which is Conference-approved being displayed or sold at area and state conferences, it was the sense of the meeting that we have no authority in this area. It is to be noted that all Conference-approved literature should be made available at A.A. get-togethers. 1969 It was recommended that: More effective ways of displaying Conference-approved literature be explored; that the delegates be polled for their suggestions and results be made available to A.A. groups. 1972 It was recommended that: It be suggested that when a local A.A. facility (central office, intergroup, group, etc.) sells non-Conference-approved literature, it be clearly designated as such. 1974 It was recommended that: Previous Conference action to display non-Conference-approved literature and Conference-approved literature separately be reaffirmed. 1975 It was recommended that: Previous Conference action to display non-Conference-approved literature and Conference-approved literature separately be reaffirmed. 1977 It was recommended that: It was suggested that A.A. groups be discouraged from selling literature not distributed by the General Service Office and the Grapevine. (Floor Action) 1986 It was recommended that: The Conference reaffirm the spirit of the 1977 Conference action regarding group literature displays, and recommended the suggestion that A.A. groups be encouraged to display or sell only literature published and distributed by the General Service Office, the A.A. Grapevine and other A.A. entities. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4242. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: RE: conference-approved From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/14/2007 9:40:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Jim has mentioned a point that has not sat well with me at all over the years. Don't get me wrong - my issue is not with Jim by any means, but with his very factual statement of the notion of "copyright protection" being used by the Trustee's Literature Committee and GSO as an excuse to withhold review copies of literature from Delegates and Groups. Perhaps the AAHL members who are published authors can shed some light on the situation on whether or not there are valid copyright concerns involved. To me there seems to be no reason whatsoever to deny Delegates (or for that matter Groups) the opportunity to review a piece of literature well prior to its publication. Outside of Directories there is no time-critical aspect to any publication nor is there any reason why an extra year couldn't be added on to the publication plan for Fellowship review. Instead, GSO uses a notion of a "work in progress" to make the entire process top-secret and known only to a select few and then claims copies of the completed work cannot be circulated in order to protect the copyright. Last Panel our Area Delegate wanted to review planned changes to the "AA Group" pamphlet and received the response that it could not be done in order to protect the copyright. That notion just doesn't seem to hold water to me, particularly in an age of digital rights management. My understanding of the copyright process is that an author need only mark a work as "copyright - all rights reserved" in order to establish initial legal intellectual property rights prior to going through the full legal copyright process. Is this true? Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of james.bliss@comcast.net Sent: Friday, April 13, 2007 12:44 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: conference-approved With respect to Arthur S's statement below: There is a very limited number of people who even have access to the literature with its changes prior to the vote (substantial changes or new literature). The Delegates may have an opportunity to review the material immediately prior to the vote, but the actual changes, or new literature, is only distributed to the people who are on the committee for formal review and input, and they make written recommendations regarding the changes. A point of interest here is that the groups (and therefore individual members) have no access to the literature (new or significant changes) prior to it being approved and published. Sort of goes against the concept of AA being run by the groups. Minor changes (punctuation or slight wording) are often published for review to the groups. It is just significant changes, rewrites and new literature which is not. I have been informed this is due to a fear of copyright issues and the material being purloined by others. Jim > It is a rare, rare event when all Delegates > at a Conference get a chance to review a piece > of literature prior to voting on it. The > review is usually done by a committee of > several Delegates. The remainder of the > Delegates typically vote, sight unseen, > for/against the literature based on the > recommendation of the committee (that's how > the Foreword to the 4th edition statement > about on-line meetings and the punctuation > changes in "Dr Bob's Nightmare" and other > changes slipped past Conference review). While > all the Delegates vote on the literature, only > a fraction of them actually gets to read it > prior to voting. > Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4243. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: RE: conference-approved/structure From: tracy flynn . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/13/2007 4:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I wanted to take a moment to clear up some of the confusion regarding the conference. The information does go out to all the area Delegates with regards to what will be happening and be being discussed at the spring conference. The Delegate is going to be on a specific committee and that Delegate will get all or most of the committee specific material. They trust the other Delegates "group conscience" (Concept 3). Many areas hold day long or weekend long workshops where they discuss, with anyone who wants to attend, what will be reviewed and voted on at the Conference. Speak with your Delegate if there’s nothing like that in your area. The Service Manual, which was initially the Third Legacy Manual (first draft written by Bill W. in 1951), describes in detail the structure of AA. The most important piece in reference to this subject would be Concept 9 and the full article contained in there from the 1959 Grapevine: “Leadership in AA: Ever a Vital Need.” (I wont type it all here) This addresses the fact that when an alcoholic is in a meeting and voting for someone, that they don’t vote for the most popular. The alcoholic must vote for the most knowledgeable and responsible person, whether they like them or not. The votes will be cast and ultimately go down to the Delegate. That Delegate votes at the General Service Conference. The groups today do have a delegated vote on everything. The groups do have the final say. Arthur S. referenced the on-line meeting statement. When that came out, the groups went back to their Delegates, which in turn went to New York, and the on-line statement was removed from the Forward to the Fourth Edition. The groups do have the final say as our history and literature clearly state. Warmest Wishes, Tracy F Chicago james.bliss@comcast.net wrote: With respect to Arthur S's statement below: There is a very limited number of people who even have access to the literature with its changes prior to the vote (substantial changes or new literature). The Delegates may have an opportunity to review the material immediately prior to the vote, but the actual changes, or new literature, is only distributed to the people who are on the committee for formal review and input, and they make written recommendations regarding the changes. A point of interest here is that the groups (and therefore individual members) have no access to the literature (new or significant changes) prior to it being approved and published. Sort of goes against the concept of AA being run by the groups. Minor changes (punctuation or slight wording) are often published for review to the groups. It is just significant changes, rewrites and new literature which is not. I have been informed this is due to a fear of copyright issues and the material being purloined by others. Jim > It is a rare, rare event when all Delegates > at a Conference get a chance to review a piece > of literature prior to voting on it. The > review is usually done by a committee of > several Delegates. The remainder of the > Delegates typically vote, sight unseen, > for/against the literature based on the > recommendation of the committee (that's how > the Foreword to the 4th edition statement > about on-line meetings and the punctuation > changes in "Dr Bob's Nightmare" and other > changes slipped past Conference review). While > all the Delegates vote on the literature, only > a fraction of them actually gets to read it > prior to voting. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4244. . . . . . . . . . . . When the name Alcoholics Anonymous was first used From: Arnello Sirignano . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/15/2007 8:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello Fellows and Fellowettes Maybe someone here can help me with something. I had always thought the name for our society came from the title of our basic text book named "Alcoholics Anonymous," right? And didn't come into use until after the Big Book was published. So why then does it mention "Alcoholics Anonymous" in the first printing of the First Edition of the Big Book? In the story titled "A Different Slant," the author writes, "The doctor at this hospital told me vaguely of the work of men who called themselves Alcoholics Anonymous and asked if I wanted one of them to call upon me." Maybe I'm just missing something. But please explain if you can. Thank You, Arnello Sirignano [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4245. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill W.''s sobriety date was 12/12/34 From: Paul . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/16/2007 5:37:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Bill W's sobriety date is 12/12/34. He was obviously drinking on 12/11/34 to and at Towns Hospital. IMO his first day of sobriety is 12/12/34. He made the decision to stop on 12/11/34 but actually stopped on 12/12/34. Similar to the three frogs on the log. Paul --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Arthur S" wrote: > > Bill W's sober date is December 11, 1934. > See "Pass It On" pg 104 for an image of his > discharge slip from Towns Hospital - it shows > an "admitted" date of 12/11/34 and "discharged" > date of 12/18/34. > > December 11, 1934 is the date Bill W had > his last drink on the way to, and at, > Towns Hospital. > > Bill's profound spiritual experience (as noted > in several sources) occurred after he was > visited by Ebby in Towns Hospital. Ebby's > visit could have occurred anywhere from the > day following Bill's admission to the hospital > up to 2 or 3 days after. I personally lean > toward December 14 as the date of Bill's > experience (although it's a close toss-up > with December 13 as the possible date). > Different written sources give different > inferences of a possible date. Specific dates > in AA history are not the easiest to determine > or reach consensus on (Dr Bob's sober date > being a prime example of that). > > Following is (as best as I can reconstruct > it, from a variety of written sources) a > timeline of Bill W receiving a message of > recovery from Ebby T and the beginning of > his own carrying the message to other > alcoholics. > > Source references: > > AABB (Alcoholics Anonymous, the Big Book), > AACOA (AA Comes of Age), > AGAA (The Akron Genesis of Alcoholics > Anonymous, by Dick B) > BW-RT (Bill W by Robert Thomsen), > BW-FH (Bill W by Francis Hartigan), > BW-40 (Bill W My First 40 Years, autobiography), > EBBY (Ebby the Man Who Sponsored Bill W by > Mel B), > GB (Getting Better Inside Alcoholics > Anonymous by Nan Robertson), > GTBT (Grateful to Have Been There by > Nell Wing), > LOH (The Language of the Heart), > LR (Lois Remembers, by Lois Wilson), > NG (Not God, by Ernest Kurtz), > NW (New Wine, by Mel B), > PIO (Pass It On), > RAA (The Roots of Alcoholics Anonymous, by > Bill Pittman), > SD (Slaying the Dragon, by William L White), > SM (AA Service Manual and Twelve Concepts > for World Service), > SW (Silkworth - The Little Doctor Who Loved > Drunks, by Dale Mitchell). > > Nov (late), Ebby T, while staying at the > Calvary Mission and working with the Oxford > Group, heard about Bill W's problems with > drinking. He phoned Lois who invited him over > for dinner. (EBBY 66) > > Nov (late), Ebby visited Bill W at 182 Clinton > St and shared his recovery experience "one > alcoholic talking to another." (AACOA vii, > 58-59) A few days later, Ebby returned with > Shep C. They both spoke to Bill about the > Oxford Group. Bill did not think too highly > of Shep. Lois recalled that Ebby visited > several times, once even staying for dinner. > (AACOA vii, NG 17-18, 311, BW-FH 57-58, > NW 22-23, PIO 111-116, BW-RT 187-192) > > Dec 7, Bill W decided to investigate the > Calvary Mission on 23rd St. He showed up drunk > with a drinking companion found along the way > (Alec the Finn). Bill kept interrupting the > service wanting to speak. On the verge of being > ejected, Ebby came by and fed Bill a plate > of beans. Bill later joined the penitents and > drunkenly "testified" at the meeting. (AACOA > 59-60, BW-40 136-137, NG 18-19, BW-FH 60, > NW 23, PIO 116-119, BW-RT 193-196, AGAA 156- > 159, EBBY 66-69) > > Dec 11, Bill W (age 39) decided to go back to > Towns Hospital and had his last drink (four > bottles of beer purchased on the way). He got > financial help from his mother, Emily, for > the hospital bill. (AACOA 61-62, LOH 197, RAA > 152, NG 19, 311, NW 23, PIO 119-120, GB 31). > > Dec 14 (possibly 13), Ebby visited Bill W at > Towns Hospital and told him about the Oxford > Group principles. After Ebby left, Bill fell > into a deep depression (his "deflation at > depth") and had a profound spiritual experience > after crying out "If there be a God, will he > show himself." Bill called Dr Silkworth to ask > if he was going crazy. Dr Silkworth later > assured Bill he was not crazy and told him > to hang on to what he had found. In a lighter > vein, Bill and others would later refer to this > as his "white flash" or "hot flash" experience. > (AABB 13-14, AACOA vii, 13, BW-40 141-148, > NG 19-20, NW 23-24, PIO 120-124, GTBT 111, > LOH 278-279) > > Note: and it sometimes raises the hackles of > AA members, Bill W was subjected to something > called the "belladonna cure." The regimen > primarily involved "purging and puking" aided > by, among other things, castor oil. Belladonna, > a hallucinogen, was used to ease the symptoms > of alcohol withdrawal. (PIO 98-101, LR 85, > BW-40 104, NG 14-15, 310, BW-FH 50, BW-RT 174). > What role the belladonna may have played in > Bill's experience is undetermined. > > Dec 15 (possibly 14), Ebby (or possibly Rowland > H) brought Bill W a copy of William James' > book "The Varieties of Religious Experience." > Bill was deeply inspired by the book. It > revealed three key points for recovery: > 1) calamity or complete defeat in some vital > area of life (hitting bottom), 2) admission > of defeat (surrender) and 3) appeal to a > higher power for help (acceptance). The book > strongly influenced early AAs and is cited in > the Big Book. (AACOA 62-64, LOH 279, EBBY 70, > SI 26, BW-40 150-152, NG 20-24, 312-313, > NW 24-25, PIO 124-125, GTBT 111-112, AABB 28) > > Dec 18, Bill W left Towns Hospital and began > working with drunks. He and Lois attended > Oxford Group meetings with Ebby T and Shep C > at Calvary House. The Rev Sam Shoemaker was > the rector at the Calvary Church (the OG's > US headquarters). The church was on 4th Ave > (now Park Ave) and 21st Street. Calvary House > (where OG meetings were usually held) was > at 61 Gramercy Park. Calvary Mission was > located at 346 E 23rd St. (AABB 14-16, > AACOA vii, LR 197, BW-40 155-160, NG 24-25, > PIO 127, GB 32-33, AGAA 144) > > Dec (late), after Oxford Group meetings, > Bill W and other OG alcoholics met at > Stewart's Cafeteria near the Calvary > Mission. Attendees included Rowland H and > Ebby T. (BW-RT 207, BW-40 160, AAGA 141-142, > NG 314) > > Cheers > Arthur > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4246. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Stewart''s Cafeteria and the Alcoholic Squadron From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/16/2007 9:05:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There was a Stewarts in the Village, and I am curious to know if it was the same one frequented by Bill W. johnlawlee@yahoo.com writes: "Arthur S" ... wrote about the OG alcoholics going to Stewart's Cafeteria after OG meetings. The "alcoholic squadron" of the OG used to meet in Stewart's Cafeteria in 1935, which was the exact period that the startup staff of the Partisan Review met in the same establishment late at night. The two groups no doubt interacted, as they stood in line for apple pie and coffee. I recall reading that Stewart's was open all night, and had an automat format. There must have been an interesting contrast in the discussions of the two groups, the drunks complaining about the "churchies" from the OG, and the communists complaining about the opium of the people. john lee where the Allegheny meets the Monongahela, to form the Ohio > Dec (late), after Oxford Group meetings, > Bill W and other OG alcoholics met at > Stewart's Cafeteria near the Calvary > Mission. Attendees included Rowland H and > Ebby T. (BW-RT 207, BW-40 160, AAGA 141-142, > NG 314) > > Cheers > Arthur > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4247. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Gay groups listed in schedules From: Sally Brown . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/12/2007 8:08:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi, Li Lightfoot - There is a wonderful new book coming out later this spring, A History of Gay People in Alcoholics Anonymous: From the Beginning (Haworth Press), by Audrey Borden. She's a Northern Californian and might have the information you're seeking - or at least have an idea where you could inquire. Her email address is (audreyborden at earthlink.net) Good luck! Shalom - Sally Rev Sally Brown, coauthor with David R. Brown: A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann The First Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous Board Certified Clinical Chaplain United Church of Christ www.sallyanddavidbrown.com 1470 Sand Hill Road, 309 Palo Alto, CA 94304 Phone/Fax: 650 325 5258 Email: rev.sally@att.net IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4248. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Gay groups listed in schedules From: Jeff Your . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/12/2007 3:00:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII See http://www.iac-aa.org/ International Advisory Council of homosexual men and women in Alcoholics Anonymous IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4249. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA in Australia Pt 2 and t/y Nell Wing From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/17/2007 1:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have the copies of the 2 letters that started AA in Australia. They did not post. If anyone wants a copy please e mail me your name and address and I'll either e mail them directly or snail mail them to you Shakey Mike G. PHX is hot in Sept. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4250. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Gay groups listed in schedules From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/14/2007 7:41:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Chapter 19 - Special Composition Groups in A.A. (from an unpublished AA history book by former GSO General Manager Bob P.) Homosexual Alcoholics Homosexual -i.e., gay and lesbian - alcoholics have found help and recovery in Alcoholics Anonymous from its very early days. Bill W. refers to them in Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions and in a 1958 letter expresses deep sympathy and concern. The dedication and talents of gay and lesbian A.A. members have often led them into service, where they have contributed enormously in all capacities including Delegate and Trustee. Almost never overt in their lifestyle, they have been completely accepted. In 1975, Lillen Fifield published a study of alcohol abuse in the Los Angeles gay community entitled, "On My Way to Nowhere: Alienated, Isolated, Drunk." Its title suggested the author's theory to account for the high incidence of alcoholism among homosexuals - which is reflected in the number of homosexual A.A.'s in that city. The point was made that A.A. serves unique needs for gay and lesbian alcoholics over and above those of straight alcoholics. The former are frequently estranged from their families at an early age, and hence feel rejected, lonely and "different" -- which makes them especially vulnerable to alcoholism. Add to this that their social life usually revolves around gay bars, partying and drinking. When they reach their bottom and come to A.A., they find in recovery not only a new way of life and new values, but also an acceptance and, indeed, a new "family" they have never had before. Therefore, in large cities with a significant homosexual population - New York, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Washington, Boston -- gays and lesbians came to A.A as early as the 1940's and in increasing numbers ever since. Going back to the late '40's and more noticeably in the '50's and '60's, there were groups in certain neighborhoods such as Greenwich Village and the East Side of Manhattan in New York, and downtown San Francisco, which were primarily composed of gay people, though they were not listed or designated as gay groups. "We were getting along fine," recalls a gay A.A. member in San Francisco, "with plenty of gay people getting sober in groups downtown or Mann or East Bay which were predominantly gay but also had a rich diversity of people." However, although the gays identified with the drinking and the feelings of straight A.A.'s, they sometimes had difficulty being comfortable or openly sharing their experiences and problems. And so, in San Francisco in about 1967, some people felt they wanted a group which was exclusively gay. It is recalled that there was considerable debate and controversy within the gay A.A. community whether or not to do it, but it was finally decided to give it a try downtown at the Episcopal Church on Fell Street. At first, the members identified themselves with names and "I'm a gay alcoholic." Shortly, however, most of them dropped saying "gay" and said simply, "I'm an alcoholic." "We regarded this just as a place where homosexual alcoholics could come who were intimidated in coming to a straight A.A. group," a founder says. "We had no idea of creating something in which people would come in and get sober and spend their entire A.A. life. But that's what's happened, and if we hadn't done it, someone else would." And someone else was indeed doing it in other cities. In Washington, D.C., for example, four alcoholics -- two gay and two lesbian -- gathered for a meeting in a private home on December 8, 1971. All of them found an exclusively homosexual group extremely helpful. They continued meeting on Sundays at two homes in nearby Virginia until the summer of 1972, when Cade W. and Bob W approached Fr. Goodrich of St.James Episcopal Church and requested meeting space. He gave his permission. A later pastor said, "If it had gone to the Vestry Council, it would have been turned down." Soon a Wednesday Step meeting was added to the Sunday meeting at St.James. Besides Cade and Bob, early members included Blanche H., Gerry Kay T., Tom H., Ray C., Vern W., Barbara G., Nancy T. and Dennis L. In early 1974, Ray C. started the St.Margaret's open speaker meeting on Friday evenings. The Lambda group in Virginia followed on Saturday nights. A Big Book meeting began at St. Thomas in late '75, and the Montrose group began a month later. A.A. groups for gays continued to grow and in 1985 Washington, Maryland and Virginia had 15 groups with about 40 meetings a week. As similar patterns of growth occurred in other cities, and A.A. groups for gays began to appear in other locations, the need was felt for a directory of gay/lesbian groups. (Since 1974, they were listed, without special designation, in A.A.'s Directories for U.S. /Canada, by Conference action. See pp. XX-XX). For this purpose as well as to provide a contact point for homosexual alcoholics, the International Advisory council for Homosexual Men and Women in Alcoholics Anonymous was organized. They also publish a helpful pamphlet. The Council is listed in the front of the A.A. Directories, along with contacts for other special composition groups, and the Council has worked with G.S.O. to help provide workshops and social events for gay/lesbian A.A.'s at International Conventions since 1980. However, gay members in other cities are quick to point out that the Council does not speak for all gay A.A.'s nor is it responsible to them. "Some of us out here," says a member in San Francisco, "area little nervous and a little resentful at the recognition given to this particular bunch." The question of listing groups for homosexuals raged in Los Angeles (and some other localities) long after the Conference had decided it at the national level. The problem in Southern California was due not only to the large number of such groups, but it was further complicated by the existence of a whole coterie of groups for gays who called themselves "Alcoholics Together." They pressured the Los Angeles central Office to list them in the local meeting directory. Actually, however, "Alcoholics Together" were religious in origin and, though they patterned themselves after all aspects of the A.A. program, they were not A.A. - which finally settled the issue. In 1975, an ad hoc group of gay A.A.'s in Northern California decided they would put on an AA. round-up. A gay member who tried to help them says the trouble was, none of the sponsoring group had more than two years sobriety. "They made a lot of mistakes, including putting out a flyer that was carefully designed to offend almost everybody, without their realizing they were offending anybody." Howls of protest were heard as far as the G.S.O. in New York, and the local Delegate was asked to meet with them and try to straighten them out. Subsequently, a second flyer was produced, and when it was shown to staff member Cora Louise B. during the Conference, she remarked, "My, this is as proper and decorous as an invitation to a coming-out party in Greenville, Mississippi !" That first round-up in 1976 was a great success, with about 200 in attendance from as far away as Vancouver, British Columbia, and Los Angeles. They immediately wanted to go home and have a similar event of their own -- and so the idea spread. The format of the ICYPAA conferences was followed in many cases. Criticism has been heard that the largest of these round-ups in New York and San Francisco, drawing around 2,000 people, have gotten far afield from A.A. in their workshops. But other recent local gatherings of gay A.A. 's have been "pure, basic A.A. - absolutely marvelous!" according to one discriminating member. -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Li Lightfoot Sent: Monday, April 09, 2007 6:16 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Gay groups listed in schedules Hey Folks: I am working on an article to be published in the San Francisco Fellowship's newsletter on the first Gay groups in A.A. We know that there was a lot of controversy about listing Gay and Lesbian Groups in the schedules and that this was eventually overcome. Does anyone know the details of this history or know where I might find out about it? Thanks, Li Lightfoot The Point Committee [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4251. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Stewart''s Cafeteria and the Alcoholic Squadron From: John Lee . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/17/2007 5:39:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The Stewarts cafeteria frequented by both the Alcoholic Squadron of OG and the Partisan Review staff in 1934 was located in what is now called the West Village. It would have been entertaining to overhear the arguments about God emanating from both tables. john lee pittsburgh Baileygc23@aol.com wrote: There was a Stewarts in the Village, and I am curious to know if it was the same one frequented by Bill W. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4252. . . . . . . . . . . . Can an individual have only one Home Group? From: hortnwho . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/17/2007 1:31:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I need to find out where the idea came from that we choose one home group and have a vote in only one group or hold a service position in only one group. I fully believe you choose one home group and have one vote in AA and hold a position in one group only, but in my home group some members are very strongly contesting that. I am the group's GSR and really would like to uphold the Traditions, Concepts and Warranties. I'm sure this came from somewhere, and figured here is the best place to find out. Thank You in advance. Sincerely, Lisa Ann F. member of Hot Springs AA IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4253. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: RE: conference-approved From: Tom White . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/17/2007 6:27:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Arthur: I agree with you. If you wrote a thing and can prove it, your copyright is firm IMHO. Seems to me there must be some other arcane considerations at work? Tom W., Odessa, TX - - - - On Apr 14, 2007, at 8:40 AM, Arthur S wrote: > Jim has mentioned a point that has not sat well with me at all over > the > years. > > Don't get me wrong - my issue is not with Jim by any means, but > with his > very factual statement of the notion of "copyright protection" > being used by > the Trustee's Literature Committee and GSO as an excuse to withhold > review > copies of literature from Delegates and Groups. > > Perhaps the AAHL members who are published authors can shed some > light on > the situation on whether or not there are valid copyright concerns > involved. > > To me there seems to be no reason whatsoever to deny Delegates (or > for that > matter Groups) the opportunity to review a piece of literature well > prior to > its publication. > > Outside of Directories there is no time-critical aspect to any > publication > nor is there any reason why an extra year couldn't be added on to the > publication plan for Fellowship review. Instead, GSO uses a notion > of a > "work in progress" to make the entire process top-secret and known > only to a > select few and then claims copies of the completed work cannot be > circulated > in order to protect the copyright. > > Last Panel our Area Delegate wanted to review planned changes to > the "AA > Group" pamphlet and received the response that it could not be done > in order > to protect the copyright. That notion just doesn't seem to hold > water to me, > particularly in an age of digital rights management. > > My understanding of the copyright process is that an author need > only mark a > work as "copyright - all rights reserved" in order to establish > initial > legal intellectual property rights prior to going through the full > legal > copyright process. Is this true? > > Cheers > Arthur > -----Original Message----- > From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of > james.bliss@comcast.net > Sent: Friday, April 13, 2007 12:44 PM > To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: conference-approved > > With respect to Arthur S's statement below: > > There is a very limited number of people who > even have access to the literature with its > changes prior to the vote (substantial changes > or new literature). The Delegates may have > an opportunity to review the material > immediately prior to the vote, but the actual > changes, or new literature, is only distributed > to the people who are on the committee for > formal review and input, and they make > written recommendations regarding the changes. > > A point of interest here is that the groups > (and therefore individual members) have no > access to the literature (new or significant > changes) prior to it being approved and > published. Sort of goes against the concept > of AA being run by the groups. > > Minor changes (punctuation or slight wording) > are often published for review to the groups. > It is just significant changes, rewrites and > new literature which is not. I have been > informed this is due to a fear of copyright > issues and the material being purloined by > others. > > Jim > > > It is a rare, rare event when all Delegates > > at a Conference get a chance to review a piece > > of literature prior to voting on it. The > > review is usually done by a committee of > > several Delegates. The remainder of the > > Delegates typically vote, sight unseen, > > for/against the literature based on the > > recommendation of the committee (that's how > > the Foreword to the 4th edition statement > > about on-line meetings and the punctuation > > changes in "Dr Bob's Nightmare" and other > > changes slipped past Conference review). While > > all the Delegates vote on the literature, only > > a fraction of them actually gets to read it > > prior to voting. > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4254. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Lewis F. Presnall: The Search for Serenity From: Sally Brown . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/12/2007 7:35:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi, Chris B - In 1959 Lewis F Presnall became the first director of the Office of Industrial Services, established by Marty Mann in her organization, National Council on Alcoholism (NCA). His outreach to business and industry helped support the handful of existing Employee Assistance Programs (EAPs), and encourage and train personnel for new programs. To quote from Marty's biography: "Marty's rallying cry became 'Save the man, save the investment!' ...NCA's most successful programs became their industrial ones, because those employees were highly motivated to recover in order to keep their jobs. (Marty quoted a 75 percent recovery rate.)" For more information about Lewis Presnall, I would contact the national offices of what is now National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence (NCADD) in New York City. There have been some staff changes, but this main number should get you started: 212 269 5691. In addition, the Employee Assistance Profes- sionals Association (EAPA) might have some information for you. Their URL is http://www.eapassn.org/public/pages/index.cfm?pageid=325 . Shalom - Sally _____________________________ Rev Sally Brown coauthor with David R. Brown: A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann Board Certified Clinical Chaplain The First Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous United Church of Christ www.sallyanddavidbrown.com 1470 Sand Hill Road, 309 Palo Alto, CA 94304 Phone/Fax: 650 325 5258 Email: rev.sally@att.net [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4255. . . . . . . . . . . . Stewart''s Cafeteria From: Wendi Turner . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/17/2007 8:35:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I'm looking on google.com for information about Stewarts cafeteria... This place sounds amazing. Not only were OG and Alcoholic Squadron members frequent patrons, it was also a favorite gay spot for men wanting to sit at the window and watch the boys go by... and many theatre-ites of that era. Keep in mind, this is the depression... being in a cafeteria is a big deal. This is a description on the internet about the place... "There was a very popular meeting place in that year of the hunger and bonus marches: Stewart's Cafeteria on Sheridan Square, where the Greenwich Village Theatre, in which I had made my stage debut, had once stood. At midnight it had the festive air of Madison Square Garden on the occasion of a big fight. Here the poor and jolly have-beens, ne'er-do-wells, names-to-be, the intellectual, the bohemian, the lazy, neurotic, confused and unfortunate, the radicals, mystics, thugs, drags and sweet young people without a base collected noisily to make a very stirring music of their discord and hope. Though this cafeteria must have represented a high degree of affluence to the really hungry, it struck me as a sort of singing Hooverville. For, strangely enough, this incubator of the Depression, with many marks of waste and decay upon it, was in point of fact a place rank with promise.... " http://www.lctreview.org/article.cfm?id_issue=62892319&id_article=3057787&pa ge=1 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4256. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W.''s sobriety date From: pvttimt@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/17/2007 5:23:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From pvttimt and Jim Blair From: pvttimt@aol.com (pvttimt at aol.com) Not to start or continue a controversy, but for whatever reason, I was taught early on by an old-timer who sobered up in 1953 in Cleveland that one's last drinking date is the date celebrated, not the first day of not drinking. I have no idea why he or others may have adopted this convention. - - - - From: James Blair (jblair at videotron.ca) In my neck of the woods, early members did not celebrate a "sobriety date" but rather the date of their last drink. They did it that way in order to "remember" their last drink. Jim - - - - Original Message from: zoidhog@yahoo.com Bill W's sobriety date is 12/12/34. He was obviously drinking on 12/11/34 to and at Towns Hospital. IMO his first day of sobriety is 12/12/34. He made the decision to stop on 12/11/34 but actually stopped on 12/12/34. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4257. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Can an individual have only one Home Group? From: Frank E. Nyikos . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/18/2007 1:46:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Frank Nyikos, Kimball Rowe, Jim Blair, Sherry Hartsell, Rotax Steve, and Baileygc23 - - - - Original question from Lisa Ann F. >I need to find out where the idea came from > that we choose one home group and have a vote > in only one group or hold a service position > in only one group. - - - - From: "Frank E. Nyikos" (fenyikos at hoosierlink.net) You can always refer to AA material and get info from the publication "Home Group - Heartbeat of AA" - - - - From: "Kimball ROWE" (roweke at msn.com) From the pamphlet "The AA Group" and the A.A. Service Manual: "Traditionally, most A.A. members through the years have found it important to belong to one group which they call 'Home Group.' This is the group where they accept responsibilities and try to sustain friendships. And although all A.A. members are usually welcome at all groups and feel at home at any of these meetings, the concept of the 'Home Group' has still remained the strongest bond between the A.A. member and the Fellowship." From the pamphlet "The AA Group" "With membership comes the right to vote upon issues that might affect the group and might also affect A.A. as a whole - a process that forms the very cornerstone of A.A.'s service structure. As with all group-conscience matters, each A.A. member has one vote; and this, ideally is voiced through his home group." My thoughts ..though not specifically stated, it is heavily implied one and only one Home Group. As I read it, I have no right to vote on matters in groups other than my Home Group. Nor should I enter into General Service or hold a group position (elected trusted servant) with a group other than my Home Group. I have no problems with being of service with another group (i.e., chairing a meeting hosted by another group, greeting people at the door, participating in another groups 7th tradition, serving coffee, reading selected passages, etc.) - - - - From: James Blair (jblair at videotron.ca) Lisa Ann wrote >I need to find out where the idea came from > that we choose one home group and have a vote > in only one group or hold a service position > in only one group. From common sense. Jim - - - - From: "Sherry C. Hartsell" (hartsell at etex.net) Hello Lisa Ann, lets say I live in Malvern, pay taxes there, but come to a City/County Election in Hot Springs and expect to vote on days the Race Track is open! Now I may have very strong feelings about the Race dates, but I doubt they'd let me vote. Same deal for membership, at one time group membership was rigorously counted and kept track of, because there was a suggested contribution to GSO by each group of $3.65 per member per year; a penny a day. Now, lets say I want to vote at YOUR Home Group, say on putting on a big eating meeting, renting a hall, flying in "A" Speakers from back East or Calif. (which I am SURE has never been done for "The Old Grand Dad" J) but my job keeps me on the road most of the time and I won't be around to help out physically or financially with putting on or paying for the deal I want a say so in. I'm sure you get the point, One Home Group, One Vote where you are responsible for what you vote on---Where Oh Where are proponents of The Little Rock Approach Plan when one needs them J ? Lisa, I lived in Arkansas much of my sober time, had great friends in A.A., Al-anon and the Service Structure there. Tell those folks who are questioning this they need a sponsor who will encourage their search of the service manual. Sherry c.h. - - - - From: "Gallery Photography" (gallery5 at mindspring.com) I'm in agreement with you Lisa. When a member claims membership to multiple groups, I believe they are a member of no group. One must show allegiance to one group (as well as one sponsor - as many do not). What happens is; if a person has a situation they want to talk about, they'll select a group where they may hear what they want to hear (same works with multiple sponsorship). Unsure if there is a set thing for that. I'm sure it would be covered in the Concepts. Rotax Steve Nangi namaj perez - - - - From: Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com) AA says there is no dogma. It also says the group has the right to be wrong. Bill W said that the leaders that tried to enforce laws could be promptly beached for resisting too hard the rising tide of democracy. Your group may not be aware that rule 62 still applies. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4258. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: When the name Alcoholics Anonymous was first used From: Gallery Photography . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/18/2007 5:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Gallery Photography and John Otis: Foreword to Second Edition says AFTER the publication of the Big Book, vs. another old tradition that it started in Cleveland. But Arthur Sheehan points to documents dating much earlier, to the summer of 1938. - - - - SPRING 1939 From: "Gallery Photography" (gallery5 at mindspring.com) In the Foreword to Second Edition (page xvii) it says: "This determination bore fruit in the spring of 1939 by the publication of this volume. The membership had then reached about 100 men and women. The fledgling society, which had been nameless, now began to be called Alcoholics Anonymous, from the title of its own book." We became "Alcoholics Anonymous" in the spring of 1939. Rotax Steve Nangi namaj perez - - - - THE CLEVELAND THEORY From: "john.otis" (suzkem at theriver.com) Hi, John Otis Miricle Valley, Arizona In the book "That Amazing Grace" by Dick B., Clarence S. from Cleveland was helped by Dr. Bob and he noticed the fighting between the different religings, went back to Cleveland and started a meeting. Someone in the meeting said Why don't we call this AA and Akron fell right into it. If we look hard enough we find answers. When they first started they called themselves The God Squad. If you can read about Cleveland AA they will tell you that is where we got our name. Love Ya, John - - - - SUMMER 1938 But Arthur Sheehan (see the next message posted on this topic) has noted the existence of documents referring to the alcoholics gathered around Bill W. and Dr. Bob as "Alcoholics Anonymous" in June and July 1938, and perhaps as early as April 1938. - - - - These answers are all in response to a question from "Arnello Sirignano" (arnello at ulster.net): I had always thought the name for our society came from the title of our basic text book named "Alcoholics Anonymous," right? And didn't come into use until after the Big Book was published. So why then does it mention "Alcoholics Anonymous" in the first printing of the First Edition of the Big Book? In the story titled "A Different Slant," the author writes, "The doctor at this hospital told me vaguely of the work of men who called themselves Alcoholics Anonymous and asked if I wanted one of them to call upon me." Maybe I'm just missing something. But please explain if you can. - - - - "A Different Slant" was Harry Brick's story. See http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/Authors.htm#Harry%20Brick His date of sobriety was probably June 1938. It is said that he sued to get the money he had loaned A.A. to get the Big Book published refunded. Harry was probably an accountant. He is believed to be "Fred, a partner in a well known accounting firm" whose story is told on pages 39 through 43 of the Big Book. So this fits with the documents Arthur Sheehan has discovered, and makes it seem most likely that the alcoholics who had gathered around Bill W. and Dr. Bob were sometimes referring to their whole group as "Alcoholics Anonymous" as early as Summer 1938. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4259. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: When the name Alcoholics Anonymous was first used From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/18/2007 6:22:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Arnello The earliest source reference I have found containing the term "Alcoholics anonymous" is a transcription of a letter from Bill W to Dr Bob written circa April - June 1938 nearly a year prior to publication of the Big Book. The copy of the transcription is from the GSO Archives (and marked as such) and was obtained from the estate of a now deceased past Delegate and Trustee from my area. The GSO Archives filing references hand written on the document state "38-25" "(#25-#30)" "Fd" "X R.28" "57" In the letter Bill advises Dr Bob that two chapters of the book have been dictated and mimeographed (an introduction and his story) and were included for Dr Bob to review together with an outline for the remaining chapters. The letter is also significant in that Bill suggests to Dr Bob that his wife Anne write the chapter "portraying the wife of an alcoholic." On pages 4 and 5 of the letter Bill wrote "... By the way, you might all be thinking up a good title. Nearly everyone agrees that we should sign the volume, Alcoholics Anonymous. Titles such as 'Haven, One Hundred Men, Comes the Dawn, etc.' have been suggested. What would you think about the formation of a charitable corporation to be called, let us say, "Alcoholics Anonymous." In other sources Lois W (in "Lois Remembers" p 197) states that the term "Alcoholics Anonymous" was first used in June 1938. "Pass It On" (p 202) claims the first documented use of the term "Alcoholics Anonymous" was in a July 15, 1938 letter from Bill W to "Messrs Richardson, Chipman and Scott of the Rockefeller Foundation" inviting them to attend a Clinton Street meeting at Bill's home and that the members will waive the requirement that qualified them for "Alcoholics Anonymous." "Pass It On" also claims that Dr Esther L Richards (of Johns Hopkins) stated in a July 18, 1938 letter that Bill W, at that time, was using the name "Alcoholics Anonymous" both as the working title of the book and as the name of the Fellowship. The story "A Different Slant" is by Harry B who was the second "Class B" Alcoholic Foundation Board Chairman appointed in January 1939. He had to resign in December 1939 after he returned to drinking. The first (and prior) alcoholic Board Chair was Bill R who was appointed in August 1938 and had to resign a few months later because he too returned to drinking. Harry B sobered up in 1938 and would likely have been aware of the name being bandied about in NY. Cheers Arthur IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4260. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: conference-approved/structure From: Debi Ubernosky . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/18/2007 12:09:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Debi Ubernosky and Past Delegate Bob McK. - - - - From: "Debi Ubernosky" (dkuber1990 at verizon.net) Thank you Tracy! Let me just add that the Delegate in my Area is diligent about providing us the background information on what will be voted on at the upcoming conference. We just held our Area Assembly this past weekend at which we held Round Tables to go over all of these items and give our Delegate a group conscience on what we thought about each one. If a person studies the Twelve Concepts for Service and the Warranties in the Service Manual, they will find something called Right of Decision. That's what we elect Delegates to do for us. If you have an on-the-ball Delegate, they will be sure you get to review the material. The sad case is that about 90% of the members of AA do not give one damn about what happens at Area Assembly, much less a group conscience, nor do they want to hear your report about it, or sacrifice any of their sober lives/time participating. That is my experience in 16+ years of sobriety and involvement in service. Debi U. sober right here in Aggieland, TX since 11-25-90 - - - - From: "Bob McK." (bobnotgod2 at att.net) I would like to add my experience as a Panel 47 member of the Grapevine Committee. The previous year the committee endorsed, and the Conference approved, development of a pamphlet describing the AA Grapevine. This task was then assigned to a writer, in this case the Grapevine managing editor. This document was then reviewed by the respon- sible Trustee's Committee (in the case of the Grapevine, this is actually the Grapevine Board) prior to its submission as background material to the Conference Committee in late February. While each delegate need only receive the background material for their own committee, they are entitled to receive ALL the back- ground material for all committees. I did, as did the other 3 Ohio delegates. This then was a stack of paper around one-foot tall. We made copies of the items the area officers felt more pertinent to group review and distributed these to "committees" at our area Mini-Conferences. The text of the proposed pamphlet was viewed by a lot of GSRs, DCMs, etc. in our Ohio areas. While I represented area 54 (NE Ohio), I also attended the gathering from area 53 (Central and SE Ohio). They were particularly critical of the proposed pamphlet and offered many suggestions for revision. When the Grapevine Committee met at the April General Service Conference we were not content with the pamphlet as submitted. The editor offered an on-the-spot rewrite to our suggestions and returned shortly with revised text which we unanimously approved. The Conference then approved the revised text sight unseen. I would like to think that they did that because they trusted us to get it right, but it is also possible that they did not view this particular pamphlet as all that important. Perhaps both are true. It is simply not practical for the Conference to act as a committee-of-the-whole on all issues. And this pamphlet -- The AA Grapevine: Our Meeting in Print (P-52), unlike the main body of the Big Book, is not frozen in stone. As Conference-Approved literature, any substantial change to the text needs Conference approval also and it got it in 2002 and 2004. By Concept One our whole Fellowship has final responsibility and ultimate authority, but the practical application of this also involves judicious application of Concept Two (delegation) and Concept Three (Right of Decision). This only works well if careful attention is paid to Concept Nine (Choosing our Leaders). IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4261. . . . . . . . . . . . Camel Pins From: oys.jerry5672 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/18/2007 6:03:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I visited Johantegens Jewelers today and chatted with the two grandsons. They thought their Grandfather started making the Camel Pins in the 1930's. However there was no one sober in Alcoholics Anonymous at that time in Minneapolis and there were no meetings of Alcoholics Anonymous being held at that time in Minneapolis. Thus there would have been no need for them. As I mentioned earlier Frank B. was Sober and attened meetings at the Mother Club (Now known as 2218). Frank B. and their Grandfather together designed the Camel Pin. Their Grandfather made the mold for the pin and they continue to make them at the present time. They make two of them. One is Gold Plated and the other one is Gold Filled. The body is Brown in color with 24 in the center. In Service Jerry Oys ______________________________ P.S. Johantegen Jewelers opened their doors in 1896. They were located at 628 West Broadway in North Minneapolis, MN. and have been owned and operated by the Johantegen family ever since. As mentioned in my earlier message they are currently located in Crystal, Minnesota. I found my father's camel pin that he received in 1958 last week and took it with me today on my visit. They compared it to one that their Grandfather made early on. There are slight differences between the two and the slight differences have continued through the years. However the size 3/8 x 3/8 of an inch has remained consistent through the years. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4262. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Lewis F. Presnall: The Search for Serenity From: joegarcia06 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/18/2007 11:32:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The aabibliography website has a page about Lewis Presnall and his book, "The Search for Serenity": http://www.aabibliography.com/aaphotohtml/wlskd8.html Joe Garcia IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4263. . . . . . . . . . . . Cleveland''s claim: first use of the name Alcoholics Anonymous From: Bob S. . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/19/2007 1:14:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII When was the name Alcoholics Anonymous first used? Bob S. reminds us of the Cleveland claim. But see Messages 4258 and 4259 first, to understand part of the problem. - - - - (1) SPRING 1939: the Foreword to Second Edition says AFTER the publication of the Big Book, which would mean not until Spring 1939. - - - - (2) SUMMER 1938: Letter from Bill W. to Dr. Bob (circa April to June 1938), says that "Nearly everyone agrees that we should sign the volume, Alcoholics Anonymous." This meant, not the title, NOT the official name of their group, but how the authorship would be given on the title page. Lois W (in "Lois Remembers" p. 197) states however that the term "Alcoholics Anonymous" was first used in June 1938. "Pass It On" (p 202) claims the first documented use of the term "Alcoholics Anonymous" was in a July 15, 1938 letter from Bill W to "Messrs Richardson, Chipman and Scott of the Rockefeller Foundation" inviting them to attend a Clinton Street meeting at Bill's home and that the members will waive the requirement that qualified them for 'Alcoholics Anonymous.'" "Pass It On" also claims that Dr Esther L Richards (of Johns Hopkins) stated in a July 18, 1938 letter that Bill W, at that time, was using the name "Alcoholics Anonymous" both as the working title of the book and as the name of the Fellowship. Also in Harry Brick's story in the Big Book, "A Different Slant," he says, "The doctor at this hospital told me vaguely of the work of men who called themselves Alcoholics Anonymous and asked if I wanted one of them to call upon me." Since Harry probably got sober in June 1938, this also suggests that the members of the AA group he contacted were calling them- selves an "Alcoholics Anonymous" group, even if only at a casual and unofficial level. - - - - (3) CLEVELAND -- SPRING 1939 Now comes the Cleveland claim, which Bob S. reminds us of: "Bob S." (rstonebraker212 at insightbb.com) Clarence Snyder started Cleveland Ohio's first AA meeting on May 11th, 1939 - about one month after the BB was published - and referred to it as an 'Alcoholics Anonymous' group. He stated in one of his audio recordings that this was the first meeting to be referred to as such. - - - - A comment or two from Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana): One of the things that has to be remembered here, is that Clarence was the leader in getting the last ties broken between the recovering alcoholics and the Oxford Group. Bill W. had already broken the tie (in some ways, it may have been more a case of the Oxford Group pushing him and his little group of alcoholics out whether they wanted to cut the tie with the Oxford Group or not). But Dr. Bob was still clinging tightly to the Oxford Group connection in Akron, which meant that, not just in Akron, but every place else in the country, including Cleveland, people regarded the little groups which were working the twelve steps as part of the Oxford Group. And that meant that, even in Cleveland where Clarence was, Roman Catholic priests were telling alcoholics that they could not join the new twelve step group, because it was part of the Protestant evangelical movement called the Oxford Group. As long as any major part of the twelve step movement was still hanging onto the Oxford Group connection, the movement as a whole was still going to be regarded as a Protestant evangelical cult. It didn't do any good to tell the Roman Catholic Church in Cleveland that "we've broken from them in New York" when it was perfectly obvious that the Akron branch, which was much bigger and more tightly organized than the New York group, was still calling itself part of the Oxford Group. That would be like saying "we aren't really a Communist front group because only two thirds of our members are Communists" (or whatever). Clarence was the one who finally got through to Dr. Bob, and forced the final official break between the twelve step people and the Oxford Group. And although the people who were getting sober by following the method worked out by Bill W. and Dr. Bob may have been referring to themselves unofficially or casually as "alcoholics anonymous," it wasn't the official and formal name of the group yet. When Clarence started publicizing the meetings in Cleveland as "meetings of Alcoholics Anonymous" (its own separate group, having nothing to do with the Oxford Group any longer, anywhere in the country), it could be argued that this was where a totally autonomous and separate Alcoholics Anonymous movement finally began operating under that official name. So it strikes me that there was a point to what Clarence said. But it is also the case that whatever date we give is largely a matter of definition. Official or unofficial? Casual or formal? First partial break or final unequivocal split from the OG? In private correspondence, or in public announce- ments in newspapers and mimeographed flyers and other more public media? Glenn C. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4264. . . . . . . . . . . . AA history book never published From: ROGER WHEATLEY . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/18/2007 11:36:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I am aware rumors are not history, but maybe someone can confirm, deny, or validate this point. I heard once that there was an AA history book being considered by AAWS and delegates were provided copies for review. There were factual errors or contentious points in the book and the project was abandoned. However, some copies were bootlegged and exist out there somewhere today of this never published history of AA's first 50 or so years. Anyone shed some historical light on this story that was once passed on to me? Roger - - - - From: Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) (glennccc at sbcglobal.net) The manuscript you are speaking of does in fact exist. It was written by Bob P., see http://hindsfoot.org/pearson.html#rigid for something about this very good man, who gave us wonderful service in AA. It is not violating the Fair Use provisions of U.S. copyright law for individuals to have a personal copy of Bob's work, which they use for their own personal research. That's why they have photocopying machines in nearly all American public and university libraries. So it would not be fair to describe these copies as "bootlegged." The problem is that the manuscript has a lot of fascinating and extremely useful informa- tion about a lot of things, but gets a whole lot of other things hopelessly garbled. So I have observed some good AA historians making use of some of Bob P.'s information on occasion, but it wouldn't be a good book for general AA use. The average AA member wouldn't know how to spot the places where Bob got it wrong. Last year, at the AA Archives and History Gathering in eastern Pennsylvania, there was a panel discussion on the issue of whether a history like Bob P. attempted could in fact be written. The position I took was that a whole lot more histories needed to be written first on the various component parts of the story, before anyone would be able to fit them all together into a single giant historical account. In fact, I argued that even then, there was no way that one single invidual could master that much AA history, and that such a work might have to be done with twenty or more AA historians each writing sections on their area of expertise (like the Cambridge Ancient History and the Cambridge Medieval History). http://hindsfoot.org/penntalk.html, see the sections towards the end on "National A.A. history" and "Can a history of A.A. from 1955 to 2000 be written today?" It has been mentioned in a lot of past messages in the AAHistoryLovers, because, as I noted, some of our best AA historians find that Bob P.'s book has some extremely useful information in it in a number of places, including material on topics covered nowhere else: Message 4250: an unpublished AA history book by former GSO General Manager Bob P. Message 3711 refers to "Bob P's aborted (by the Conference) manuscript of a history of AA from 1955 to 1985." Message 2884: "Excerpt from: Unpublished manuscript 'AA World History' (1985) by Bob P." Message 2285 from Rick T., Illinois: "I need to inform the group that Bob Pearson's AA history book was much more about the history of the General Service Office than specific growth of selected cities and AA "Chapters." In my own view of the draft manuscript, the scope of specific cities' growth was not covered extremely well in it. I learned a great deal about the GSO relation to the General Service Conference, and Bob P. did write about trends in AA with a keen insight. His book was never published, but was severely compromised from photocopying by 1988s Delegates, which means that there are unauthorized copies of it floating around. Message 1826: "My sources for the history of AA's growth around the country include Bob P.'s never-released Non-Approved History of Alcoholics Anonymous 1957-1985. The title is a bit of a misnomer, as it covers quite a lot of facts from 1939 to 1985." Also Messages 3150, 3146, 2847, 2808, 2221, 1975, 1691, 858, 114. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4265. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA history book: correction to previous message From: Glenn F. Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/19/2007 3:18:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Correction in the URL given to the article on the difficulty of a single person writing a history telling the whole story of AA in the twentieth century. Click on this and it will work: > http://hindsfoot.org/penntalk.html , see the > sections towards the end on "National A.A. > history" and "Can a history of A.A. from > 1955 to 2000 be written today?" IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4266. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Camel Pins From: David Jones . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/19/2007 2:49:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII You can obtain camel lapel pins of the latter type (brown body with 24 centre) at HYPERLINK "http://www.recoveryemporium.com" www.recoveryemporium.com. for approx $2.25 I have been giving them out as birthday gifts at my home group. God bless Dave I visited Johantegens Jewelers today and chatted with the two grandsons. They thought their Grandfather started making the Camel Pins in the 1930's. However there was no one sober in Alcoholics Anonymous at that time in Minneapolis and there were no meetings of Alcoholics Anonymous being held at that time in Minneapolis. Thus there would have been no need for them. As I mentioned earlier Frank B. was Sober and attened meetings at the Mother Club (Now known as 2218). Frank B. and their Grandfather together designed the Camel Pin. Their Grandfather made the mold for the pin and they continue to make them at the present time. They make two of them. One is Gold Plated and the other one is Gold Filled. The body is Brown in color with 24 in the center. In Service Jerry Oys P.S. Johantegen Jewelers opened their doors in 1896. They were located at 628 West Broadway in North Minneapolis, MN. and have been owned and operated by the Johantegen family ever since. As mentioned in my earlier message they are currently located in Crystal, Minnesota. I found my father's camel pin that he received in 1958 last week and took it with me today on my visit. They compared it to one that their Grandfather made early on. There are slight differences between the two and the slight differences have continued through the years. However the size 3/8 x 3/8 of an inch has remained consistent through the years. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4267. . . . . . . . . . . . National Archives Workshop From: Bent Christensen . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/18/2007 1:06:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi there I'm a little curious about the AA National Archives Workshop. Being a member that finds our history very interesting and vital for the future of our fellowship, who has absolutely nothing to do with research or preservation etc., and only limited knowledge about the details in our history; I wonder if attending would make any sense. If a member of the group will share a little about the format and content of previous Workshops and tell who, in their opinion, would benefit from attending, it will be highly appreciated. Thanks Bent Alt i én. Få Yahoo! Mail med adressekartotek, kalender og notesblok. - - - - See Message 4064: Complete List of the National Archives Workshops 1st 1996 Akron 2nd 1997 Akron 3rd 1998 Akron 4th 1999 Chicago, Illinois 5th 2000 Seattle, Washington 6th 2001 Clarksville, Indiana (across Ohio river from Louisville, Kentucky) 7th 2002 San Bernardino, California 8th 2003 Fort Lauderdale, Florida 9th 2004 Murfreesboro, in central Tennessee (about forty miles from Nashville) 10th 2006 Baton Rouge, Louisiana (originally set for New Orleans, but the hurricane struck in 2005) 11th 2007 Phoenix, Arizona IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4268. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: AA history book never published From: ricktompkins . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/19/2007 11:53:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Group and hello Roger, Don't forget the "Collected Observations of AA" manuscript that may still be available in excerpt form from the AA Archives at GSO. These sets of monographs come from the 'second' Conference submittal of an AA history book that the 1993 Conference Literature Committee declined to recommend publishing (Bob P.'s seminal work was submitted to Delegates in 1987). There was no 1993 Advisory Action against publishing the second manuscript, only the Literature Committee's recommendation of "taking no action" on it. A close friend who served as Indiana Area 22 Delegate and was seated on that Conference Literature Committee shared that the book was just not up to AA expectations...others on the Literature and Archives committees at that time shared the same view. Two sets of authors worked on this second manuscript, and after the Conference declined to proceed with the project, it was reported (rumored) that the General Service Board balked on paying them. The authors eventually got paid their contracted amount of $2-300,000 for four years of work. Unfortunately the professional writers could not bring a needed continuity to the work and the manuscript remained with Trustees Literature for editing over the next few years. Trustees Literature Committee then recommended that what was left of it be placed in the AA Archives. Another good friend, a past Chicago Delegate who was an Appointed Committee Member to Trustees Literature, assisted with the editing and he shared that much of the erroneous information and extraneous stuff was discarded. Frank M., AA Archivist at GSO (1982-1996), reported the consensus of the Trustees Archives Committee in 1995 that excerpts of the book could be released to Fellowship members who had an interest in copies, but only excerpts relating to the geographical area of the requestors would be considered. "Collected Observations" is the stripped-down second history book's final title. He sent me 25 pages on history of the East Central Region and while the Illinois details were scattered and not as factual as could have been, the reading was difficult because it dropped so many names---ones that may have been relevant (and almost impossible to recognize, for example Conrad O. from Illinois) and others that were large errors of omission (inaccuracies about the Chicago Group). At the time I joked with him that these excerpts came across like chapters that could have been included with Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers. "Not up to Fellowship expectations" also points to the scope of the book: it was not an AA history that continued where AA Comes of Age left off (1957) and there was no tie-in to the then-present 1990s. My last two bits on this thread of AAWS books on AA history never published: The Fellowship cherishes Bill W.'s AA Comes of Age and many AAs (including me) also cherish Ernest Kurtz' independently published Not-God as the two most comprehensive works on AA history. Both are awesomely beautiful works. Two more AAWS histories, Pass It On and Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers, rate close behind them. The latest archival work, AAWS' Experience, Strength and Hope, was published in 2002---all four of these would be quite a gift set to anyone interested in AA history. And, how many independently published AA biographies are available today? Dozens. It's unfortunate that Bob P.'s effort failed to develop to a Conference-approved level, but it was a history generally focused on 50 years, especially where Bill's AA Comes of Age left off. The second 1989-93 effort now titled "Collected Observations of Alcoholics Anonymous" was AAWS' last attempt at pre-publication AA history manuscript review. Can any future AA history proposal and/or manuscript pass the muster of the General Service Conference? Of course, someday...at least I strongly believe it will happen. Incidentally, the Conference Policy and Admissions Committee discussed one Area's request for consideration on a new attempt at an AA history book in 2005 (2006?) but the committee took no action; perhaps there was no groundswell of support since the second history book's costly demise and the request failed to blossom that year. But as we say (and quote regularly), "More will be revealed." Love and serenity to you all, Rick T., Illinois From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ROGER WHEATLEY Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2007 10:36 AM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] AA history book never published I am aware rumors are not history, but maybe someone can confirm, deny, or validate this point. I heard once that there was an AA history book being considered by AAWS and delegates were provided copies for review. There were factual errors or contentious points in the book and the project was abandoned. However, some copies were bootlegged and exist out there somewhere today of this never published history of AA's first 50 or so years. . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4269. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Cleveland''s claim: first use of the name Alcoholics Anonymous From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/20/2007 10:38:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Cleveland's claim, I believe, was to be the first group to openly identify itself as a group of Alcoholics Anonymous and that is a valid claim. The Cleveland group formed shortly after the Big Book was published and the name "Alco- holics Anonymous" was already in existence. However, anonymity practices in those early days were far more stringent than today and it was a rather bold move on Cleveland's part relatively speaking. If you check out the 1941 Jack Alexander Saturday Evening Post article, members back then even disguised their first names from public disclosure. Notwithstanding Bill W's early use of the term, I don't get a sense that there was yet unanimity in NY or Akron on adopting the term for the name of the Fellowship. As mentioned previously, Akron had not broken away yet from affiliation with the Oxford Group (it did not occur until October 1939). That affiliation was definitely one of the matters driving Cleveland to form its own group. However, Cleveland seemed to already have had a sufficient number of members commuting back and forth to/from Akron for meetings to sustain and warrant its own local AA group. It was basically a matter of just doing it and that's what Clarence S did. He was not the first member from Cleveland but he did start the first group in Cleveland at Abby G's home. Sometimes the search for primacy serves to detract too much from historical accomplish- ments and Cleveland AA has many significant historical accomplishments to its credit. When the Cleveland Plain Dealer editorials by Elrick B Davis were published about AA (October 1939) the newspaper also fielded calls in for help and referred them to the group. Cleveland membership sky-rocketed to the point that it vastly exceeded the combined total membership of Akron and NY for a long period of time. That reputedly is one of the reasons many thought AA started in Cleveland based on its relative size compared to Akron and NY. While he had both his proponents and detractors, the Cleveland founder, Clarence S, was without question highly motivated and active. He accomplished much in a very short period of time. I think (but am not sure) that Cleveland was the first to have multiple groups in the same city (prior to that a group was usually named for the city in which it was located). The first Intergroup Central Office was estab- lished in Cleveland (1941) again to the credit of Clarence S and Abby G and it is credited with also introducing (via Abby G) the principle of rotation to AA. Cleveland introduced the first AA newsletter the "Central Bulletin" (October 1942). It was distributed nationally well prior to the publication of the Grapevine (June 1944). The success of Cleveland practices for newcomer meetings and sponsorship also had a strong influence in later propagating those practices to many other parts of the country. AA started in Texas (February 1940) as a result of a Cleveland member (Larry J) taking a job with the Houston Press and publishing a series of editorials about AA. Those editorials also became AA's first published pamphlet. Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bob S. Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 12:14 AM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Cleveland's claim: first use of the name Alcoholics Anonymous When was the name Alcoholics Anonymous first used? Bob S. reminds us of the Cleveland claim. But see Messages 4258 and 4259 first, to understand part of the problem. - - - - (1) SPRING 1939: the Foreword to Second Edition says AFTER the publication of the Big Book, which would mean not until Spring 1939. - - - - (2) SUMMER 1938: Letter from Bill W. to Dr. Bob (circa April to June 1938), says that "Nearly everyone agrees that we should sign the volume, Alcoholics Anonymous." This meant, not the title, NOT the official name of their group, but how the authorship would be given on the title page. Lois W (in "Lois Remembers" p. 197) states however that the term "Alcoholics Anonymous" was first used in June 1938. "Pass It On" (p 202) claims the first documented use of the term "Alcoholics Anonymous" was in a July 15, 1938 letter from Bill W to "Messrs Richardson, Chipman and Scott of the Rockefeller Foundation" inviting them to attend a Clinton Street meeting at Bill's home and that the members will waive the requirement that qualified them for 'Alcoholics Anonymous.'" "Pass It On" also claims that Dr Esther L Richards (of Johns Hopkins) stated in a July 18, 1938 letter that Bill W, at that time, was using the name "Alcoholics Anonymous" both as the working title of the book and as the name of the Fellowship. Also in Harry Brick's story in the Big Book, "A Different Slant," he says, "The doctor at this hospital told me vaguely of the work of men who called themselves Alcoholics Anonymous and asked if I wanted one of them to call upon me." Since Harry probably got sober in June 1938, this also suggests that the members of the AA group he contacted were calling them- selves an "Alcoholics Anonymous" group, even if only at a casual and unofficial level. - - - - (3) CLEVELAND -- SPRING 1939 Now comes the Cleveland claim, which Bob S. reminds us of: "Bob S." (rstonebraker212 at insightbb.com) Clarence Snyder started Cleveland Ohio's first AA meeting on May 11th, 1939 - about one month after the BB was published - and referred to it as an 'Alcoholics Anonymous' group. He stated in one of his audio recordings that this was the first meeting to be referred to as such. - - - - A comment or two from Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana): One of the things that has to be remembered here, is that Clarence was the leader in getting the last ties broken between the recovering alcoholics and the Oxford Group. Bill W. had already broken the tie (in some ways, it may have been more a case of the Oxford Group pushing him and his little group of alcoholics out whether they wanted to cut the tie with the Oxford Group or not). But Dr. Bob was still clinging tightly to the Oxford Group connection in Akron, which meant that, not just in Akron, but every place else in the country, including Cleveland, people regarded the little groups which were working the twelve steps as part of the Oxford Group. And that meant that, even in Cleveland where Clarence was, Roman Catholic priests were telling alcoholics that they could not join the new twelve step group, because it was part of the Protestant evangelical movement called the Oxford Group. As long as any major part of the twelve step movement was still hanging onto the Oxford Group connection, the movement as a whole was still going to be regarded as a Protestant evangelical cult. It didn't do any good to tell the Roman Catholic Church in Cleveland that "we've broken from them in New York" when it was perfectly obvious that the Akron branch, which was much bigger and more tightly organized than the New York group, was still calling itself part of the Oxford Group. That would be like saying "we aren't really a Communist front group because only two thirds of our members are Communists" (or whatever). Clarence was the one who finally got through to Dr. Bob, and forced the final official break between the twelve step people and the Oxford Group. And although the people who were getting sober by following the method worked out by Bill W. and Dr. Bob may have been referring to themselves unofficially or casually as "alcoholics anonymous," it wasn't the official and formal name of the group yet. When Clarence started publicizing the meetings in Cleveland as "meetings of Alcoholics Anonymous" (its own separate group, having nothing to do with the Oxford Group any longer, anywhere in the country), it could be argued that this was where a totally autonomous and separate Alcoholics Anonymous movement finally began operating under that official name. So it strikes me that there was a point to what Clarence said. But it is also the case that whatever date we give is largely a matter of definition. Official or unofficial? Casual or formal? First partial break or final unequivocal split from the OG? In private correspondence, or in public announce- ments in newspapers and mimeographed flyers and other more public media? Glenn C. Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4270. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: National Archives Workshop From: Jayaa82@earthlink.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/20/2007 6:30:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The workshops are aimed both at experienced archivists and rank beginners. We always have workshops on the basics of preservation, etc. so if you are interested in learning more it would make a lot of sense. Plus, you can "pick the brains" of archivists from all over the country and you will learn mucho! Someone interested in our history but not the nuts and bolts of archives work would get less out of the workshop but you still could learn much about our history. I guess it depends on how far you would be traveling. > [Original Message] > From: Bent Christensen > To: > Date: 4/19/2007 3:53:58 PM > Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] National Archives Workshop > > Hi there > > I'm a little curious about the AA National > Archives Workshop. > > Being a member that finds our history very > interesting and vital for the future of our > fellowship, who has absolutely nothing to do > with research or preservation etc., and only > limited knowledge about the details in our > history; I wonder if attending would make any > sense. > > If a member of the group will share a little > about the format and content of previous > Workshops and tell who, in their opinion, > would benefit from attending, it will be > highly appreciated. > > Thanks > Bent > > Alt i én. Få Yahoo! Mail med adressekartotek, kalender og notesblok. > > - - - - > > See Message 4064: > > Complete List of the National Archives Workshops > > 1st 1996 Akron > > 2nd 1997 Akron > > 3rd 1998 Akron > > 4th 1999 Chicago, Illinois > > 5th 2000 Seattle, Washington > > 6th 2001 Clarksville, Indiana > (across Ohio river from Louisville, Kentucky) > > 7th 2002 San Bernardino, California > > 8th 2003 Fort Lauderdale, Florida > > 9th 2004 Murfreesboro, in central Tennessee > (about forty miles from Nashville) > > 10th 2006 Baton Rouge, Louisiana > (originally set for New Orleans, > but the hurricane struck in 2005) > > 11th 2007 Phoenix, Arizona IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4271. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA history book never published From: James Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/19/2007 3:22:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Bob Pearson's unpublished history of AA and another one, Charles Hanson's unpublished history of AA. - - - - From: James Blair (jblair at videotron.ca) Roger wrote > There were factual errors or contentious > points in the book and the project was > abandoned. A friend of mine was a trustee when this history book project was shut down. I had a long discussion with him about it and the reason he gave me was that the manuscript was incomplete and much more work needed to be done on the local histories within each state and province as well as the international histories. The cost to complete it was judged to be to great. I have never found a factual error or con- tentious point in the manuscript but of course history often has more than one set of facts. There was also a history book written by Charles Hanson and it was to be used as a 50th Anniversary publication but it was judged to be "too general." Jim IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4272. . . . . . . . . . . . Cleveland, Texas, and Florida AA From: Ken WENTZ . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/20/2007 11:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "AA started in Texas (February 1940) as a result of a Cleveland member (Larry J) taking a job with the Houston Press and publishing a series of editorials about AA. Those editorials also became AA's first published pamphlet." From message 4269 "Arthur S" (ArtSheehan at msn.com) - - - - Regarding the long line of AA to start as a result of the Cleveland group, Larry J.'s article written in Texas was read and responded to by Sgt. Roy Y., who was then transferred to the Tampa-St. Pete area and as a result ALL of AA in this area of Florida( Clearwater, Tampa, St. Pete) was actually born out of that article, via Roy starting meetings with some other locals. The 301(Clearwater Group) traces its roots to Roy and just celebrated its 62nd anniversary March 21,2007. Thanks Ken W. Clearwater Fla. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4273. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: National Archives Workshop From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/21/2007 11:28:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII At 00:06 4/18/2007 , Bent Christensen wrote asking about the National Archives Workshops. I hosted the hospitality suite last year at the meeting here in Baton Rouge one afternoon and I can say I learned a lot just listening to the knowledgeable folk talk. The exhibits were really nice, too. It's a nice bunch and you are likely to learn a lot whether you intend to or not. Tommy in Baton Rouge IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4274. . . . . . . . . . . . Historical recordings From: Cliff Diable . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/21/2007 7:12:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Having recently read ( and re-read) bio's and autobio's of the giants of AA, I'd like very much to actually hear some of the great speeches I've read, and heard about. Any one have a link or, perhaps info when I can listen to "My Heros"?? Interested in Bill, Lois, Dr. Bob, Nell Wing, Ebby, Drs. Silkworth, Shoemaker and Tiebeau as well as others. Thanks!! Cliff Diable Raleigh, NC IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4275. . . . . . . . . . . . Charles Hanson''s unpublished AA history From: G Rohde . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/21/2007 8:08:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello One and all, I hope this finds everyone well and in good spirits. Anyone have a PDF copy of the book written by Charles Hanson? The one Bob Pearson did was good for such a hard project. I sure would like to compare them seeing as how I have read Bob P's attempt. Thank You Gary ********************************* PLEASE CLICK HERE TO CONTACT GARY DIRECTLY AT HIS EMAIL ADDRESS: (feelgoodcp at gmail.com) ********************************* On 4/19/07, James Blair (jblair at videotron.ca) mentioned Charles Hanson's unpublished AA history as well as Bob Pearson's history: > There was also a history book written by > Charles Hanson and it was to be used as a > 50th Anniversary publication but it was > judged to be "too general." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4276. . . . . . . . . . . . National Archives Workshops: a typical program From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/22/2007 11:53:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This is a program from the past (taken from the planning committee's records), but this general format has been fairly typical of the National Archives Workshops: 6th NATIONAL ARCHIVES WORKSHOP SEPTEMBER 27-30, 2001 Clarksville, Indiana / Louisville, Kentucky "Our Window on the Past, Guide to the Present, and Light for the Future" Holiday Inn Lakeview (Louisville North), Clarksville, Indiana ************************** FRIDAY, SEPTEMBER 28 7:00 a.m. A.A. meeting 7:30-9 a.m. breakfast - - - - 9:00-11:30 a.m. KATHY SMITH (Vanderbilt University, Nashville, Tennessee), "Introduction to Archival Procedures" - - - - 11:30-1:00 p.m. lunch - - - - 1:00-5:00 p.m. BOB WILLIAMS (Maumelle, Arkansas) on advanced archival and preservation procedures - - - - 5:00-6:30 p.m. dinner 6:30-10 p.m. Floyd Parker (Frankton, Indiana, co-chair of the workshop planning committee): general introduction. Longtimers Panel, two longtimers from each hosting Area, chaired by Frank Nyikos (Area 22 Archivist, Syracuse, Indiana, secretary/ treasurer of the workshop planning committee): Areas 20, 22, 23, 26, and 56, plus Area 64 (Chuck E., over 50 years, and Billy S., almost 50 years, oldest living delegate) - - - - 9:30 p.m. JUDIT SANTON, New York A.A. Archivist: specific kinds of correspondence in the New York archives, plus perhaps something on the importance of oral histories. - - - - 10:00 p.m. ice cream social ************************** SATURDAY, SEPTEMBER 29 7:00 a.m. A.A. meeting 7:45-8:45 a.m. breakfast - - - - 9:00-10:15 a.m. Policy, ethics, A.A. principles: JUDIT SANTON (New York A.A. Archivist) GAIL LaC. (Akron A.A. Archives) Plus one other person (on the internet) Funding an A.A. archives: JIM E. (Area 19) Publishing an Area history: WANDA B. (Area 26 Archivist, Lexington, Kentucky) - - - - 10:30-11:45 a.m. Linkage and outreach: JERRY P. (Sycamore IL), first Conference Archives Chair A.A. authors and history: GLENN CHESNUT (Indiana University, South Bend), "Indiana's Own A.A. Author: Ralph Pfau (Father John Doe) and the Golden Books" Father Ralph's life, Indiana places linked with him in the immediate vicinity of Clarksville where we are meeting, and his work in A.A. Database and retrieval methods: JAY M. (Akron Intergroup) - - - - 11:45-1:30 p.m. lunch - - - - 1:30-3:30 p.m. JIM DORRYCOTT (Area 64 Archivist), slide show with photographs of the newly built Area 64 Tennessee A.A. Archives - - - - 3:45-5 p.m. Area Capsule Histories from our part of the country: how A.A. began and notable events. Area 23: Kenny B. Area 22: Glenn C., member of the workshop planning committee Area 64: Charley M. Area 26: Wanda B., member of the workshop planning committee Area 20: Rick T., program chair of the workshop planning committee Area 56: John from Ohio - - - - 5:00 p.m. business meeting, chaired by Frank Nyikos (Area 22 Archivist, Syracuse, Indiana), secretary/treasurer of the workshop planning committee - - - - 6:30-7:30 p.m. banquet - - - - 8:15 p.m. FIRST KEYNOTE SPEAKER BILL D., Memphis, Tennessee (over 46 years in the program - - spoke at Minneapolis - - got sober in New York in the early 1950's, went to the meeting Bill W. went to there, knew Dr. Silkworth - - he went from New York to Texas, where he spent many years, then retired to Memphis, where he lives now and is active in Tennessee A.A.) - - - - 9:15 p.m. SECOND KEYNOTE SPEAKER BILL WHITE (Bloomington, Illinois), author of "Slaying the Dragon," the leading expert on the history of alcoholism treatment in America. A talk illustrated with slides showing photographs of alcoholism treatment centers from the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. ************************** SUNDAY, SEPTEMBER 30 7:00 a.m. A.A. meeting 7:30-9:00 a.m. breakfast 9:00-11:45 a.m. Closing Session Conference Archives Committee Report, Trustees Archives Committee Report, Ask-It-Basket, 2001 Preliminary Report Planning Guide Presentation, Jack O. (Joliet, Illinois, Conference Archives Committee), Service Sharing ########################## THE PHILOSOPHY OF THE NATIONAL ARCHIVES WORKSHOPS (from a planning committee document) The A.A. people who come to these workshops are all people who are actively engaged in archival work, most of them for many years. They include: members of Area A.A. archives committees, District archivists, archivists at intergroup offices, people from the New York central office (like Judit Santon), Trustees and Delegates who are interested in archives, and historians working on the history of A.A. who use archives as major sources of informa- tion. Some of the attendees are also brand new at their archivist's job, so some of our topic sessions will need to be tailored for absolutely raw, new beginners - - that's part of our job too, though only a part. So we've always had topic sessions on preserving and restoring and storing old manuscripts, and the problems in preserving old tape recordings. Also on how to use computers in various ways to help organize an archival collection. Also talks by people who run local Area archi- val repositories in places like Little Rock, Arkansas, and so on. We usually have a trustee or two who is interested in archives. We always have local oldtimers who are willing to answer our questions about early A.A. in their part of the country, and their own personal experiences. We try to have good material on A.A. history too. So our programs include talks by experts on A.A. history, small group meetings with noted authors of works on A.A. history (where we can talk to people like Mary Darrah about their work), and so on. We've always had major speakers at these workshops, sometimes as many as four or five or more. Ernie Kurtz, Mary Darrah, and so on, spoke at the workshops in Akron. The speakers are frequently A.A. members, but we have had non-A.A. people speak too. For example Dr. Bob's son Smitty, Henrietta Seiberling's son, and a doctor and a nurse who are part of the current alcoholism treatment program at St. Thomas Hospital in Akron. The National Archives Workshops are not official A.A. events like A.A. state conventions or miniconferences put on by local intergroups, so the rules about non-alcoholic speakers do not apply. We frequently have some special event which is tied to the history of A.A. in the place where the workshop is held: a visit to Dr. Bob's house (and to his and Anne's grave) at the Akron workshops, getting to attend the huge Chicago Open Meeting (with thousands of A.A.'s from all over greater Chicago) at the workshop in that city in 1999, and so on. As archivists, we are responsible for perserv- ing the CONTEXT in which A.A. grew and emerged, as well as what the early A.A.'s themselves were doing. Nobody can make good sense out of much of what the early A.A.'s did without knowing something about the Oxford Group, the Washingtonians, the treatment centers and hospitals which were trying (and failing) to bring the "cure" to suffering alcoholics, and so on - - as well as the love-hate rela- tionship which developed between the A.A. groups and the treatment centers and detox facilities and half-way houses. Our central focus, nevertheless, always has to be on A.A. and its people - - the rest is only peripheral. These workshops are not official A.A. events, in the sense of being put on by areas or districts or intergroups. They are organized by ad hoc committees. The planning committee for the 6th National Archives Workshop, for example, was made up of A.A. members from Indiana, Illinois, Kentucky, and Tennessee who were deeply committed to A.A. archives and history. From Indiana Area 22 we had the chair of the archives committee, the archivist, and the editor of the archival bulletin (Floyd P., Frank N., and Glenn C.). From Illinois Area 20 we had their archivist (Rick T.). From Tennessee Area 64 we had their archivist (Jim Dorrycott, now deceased). From Kentucky Area 26 we had the chair of the archives committee (Wanda B.). IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4277. . . . . . . . . . . . 11th National Archives Workshop: Phoenix, Arizona From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/22/2007 11:57:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: "Area64tnarchives.org" (daggerrose at area64tnarchives.org) 11th Annual National Archives Workshop Preserving Our Heritage To Pass It On September 6 thru September 9, 2007 Sheraton Airport Hotel Phoenix, Arizona Greetings, It's sneaking up on us. Make your reservations now. Go to: http://www.aanationalarchivesworkshop.com/ http://www.aanationalarchivesworkshop.com/NAW07.pdf It will only take a couple minutes. Tell Vicki Area 64 Archives sent ya. Best Regards and See Ya in September, Daggerrose - - - - FROM THE FLYER: 11 th Annual National Archives Workshop Alcoholics Anonymous Preserving Our Heritage to Pass It On With Al-Anon Participation September 6 thru 9, 2007 -- Phoenix, Arizona Sheraton Airport Hotel 1600 S. 52nd Street 1-800-325-3535 Contacts: Vicki Jo B. (H) 602-995-7349 / (W) 602-272-1347 happyvjb@yahoo.com (happyvjb at yahoo.com) Ron W. 623-934-4395 Ronw85301@aol.com (Ronw85301 at aol.com) ***Limited Amount Of Space Available for Archive Displays -- Advise Ahead Of Time If Bringing Displays*** IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4278. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Historical recordings From: john.otis . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/22/2007 3:39:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi, John Otis here. I have tapes called "The Founders Of AA" by Glenn K Audio Tapes. There are six tapes very clear. #1 Ebby T 9/14/58 #2 Bob S 1/01/48 #3 Bill W + Dr. Bob 1st convention Cleveland 7/28/50 #4 Bill D The Man On The Bed 1/1/50 #5 Harry T, Dr. 1/1/66 #6 Bill W. The Story Handed Down" date unknown. I obtained them from: http://www.glennkaudiotapes.com/ They have very clear sound. You will really like them. John Otis > > Having recently read ( and re-read) bio's and > autobio's of the giants of AA, I'd like very > much to actually hear some of the great speeches > I've read, and heard about. Any one have a link > or, perhaps info when I can listen to "My Heros"?? > > Interested in Bill, Lois, Dr. Bob, Nell Wing, > Ebby, Drs. Silkworth, Shoemaker and Tiebeau > as well as others. > > Thanks!! > Cliff Diable > Raleigh, NC > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4279. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: RE: conference-approved From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/22/2007 8:30:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII To my knowledge, any work marked "Copyright" or (c) is copyrighted - period. The revised copyright law allows for the protection of the author or entity holding copyright. Having an actual copyright certificate holds more weight legally than the other method if challenged in court. I would think that AA's crack legal teams of intellectual property lawyers would know that AAWS can register a work with the Copyright Office as it nears completion and when it is completed submit another one. If anyone "steals" the work sent out for review, the original copyright is in force and even if the language is changed I am sure that there might be enough legal evidence to challenge. ANyway, even after a copyright is secured including a copyright certificate, anyone can write a similar document changing the words etc. and get away with it. What's the big paranoid deal? You can't copyright a concept. Wider input might confuse the issue at times but some of that confusion might lead to a greater acceptnce by the Fellowship at large. Before the copyright laws were revised one had to put loan or review copy in the body of the text to have a stronger claim of copyright. Today that isn't necessary and even if not necessary why not put it on literature sent out for review anyway? This "top-secret" stuff doesn't belong in AA on ANY level. Mitchell --- Arthur S wrote: > Jim has mentioned a point that has not sat well with > me at all over the > years. > > Don't get me wrong - my issue is not with Jim by any > means, but with his > very factual statement of the notion of "copyright > protection" being used by > the Trustee's Literature Committee and GSO as an > excuse to withhold review > copies of literature from Delegates and Groups. > > Perhaps the AAHL members who are published authors > can shed some light on > the situation on whether or not there are valid > copyright concerns involved. > > To me there seems to be no reason whatsoever to deny > Delegates (or for that > matter Groups) the opportunity to review a piece of > literature well prior to > its publication. > > Outside of Directories there is no time-critical > aspect to any publication > nor is there any reason why an extra year couldn't > be added on to the > publication plan for Fellowship review. Instead, GSO > uses a notion of a > "work in progress" to make the entire process > top-secret and known only to a > select few and then claims copies of the completed > work cannot be circulated > in order to protect the copyright. > > Last Panel our Area Delegate wanted to review > planned changes to the "AA > Group" pamphlet and received the response that it > could not be done in order > to protect the copyright. That notion just doesn't > seem to hold water to me, > particularly in an age of digital rights management. > > > My understanding of the copyright process is that an > author need only mark a > work as "copyright - all rights reserved" in order > to establish initial > legal intellectual property rights prior to going > through the full legal > copyright process. Is this true? > > Cheers > Arthur > -----Original Message----- > From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf > Of > james.bliss@comcast.net > Sent: Friday, April 13, 2007 12:44 PM > To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: conference-approved > > With respect to Arthur S's statement below: > > There is a very limited number of people who > even have access to the literature with its > changes prior to the vote (substantial changes > or new literature). The Delegates may have > an opportunity to review the material > immediately prior to the vote, but the actual > changes, or new literature, is only distributed > to the people who are on the committee for > formal review and input, and they make > written recommendations regarding the changes. > > A point of interest here is that the groups > (and therefore individual members) have no > access to the literature (new or significant > changes) prior to it being approved and > published. Sort of goes against the concept > of AA being run by the groups. > > Minor changes (punctuation or slight wording) > are often published for review to the groups. > It is just significant changes, rewrites and > new literature which is not. I have been > informed this is due to a fear of copyright > issues and the material being purloined by > others. > > Jim > > > It is a rare, rare event when all Delegates > > at a Conference get a chance to review a piece > > of literature prior to voting on it. The > > review is usually done by a committee of > > several Delegates. The remainder of the > > Delegates typically vote, sight unseen, > > for/against the literature based on the > > recommendation of the committee (that's how > > the Foreword to the 4th edition statement > > about on-line meetings and the punctuation > > changes in "Dr Bob's Nightmare" and other > > changes slipped past Conference review). While > > all the Delegates vote on the literature, only > > a fraction of them actually gets to read it > > prior to voting. > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4280. . . . . . . . . . . . Moderator out of town April 23 to 29, 2007 From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/23/2007 10:06:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi to everybody, I will be out of town for a week. I'll be gone from today (Monday, April 23, 2007) until the end of the week (Sunday evening late, April 29, 2007). We'll be pulling our camper and traveling down to southern Indiana. Given where we'll be going, I won't have any access to the internet at any point along the way. Fiona Dodd in County Mayo, Ireland, will be keeping an eye on things, with the same skill and keen eye that she always shows. fionadodd@eircom.net (fionadodd at eircom.net) Everybody take care. Glenn Chesnut, Moderator IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4281. . . . . . . . . . . . AA historical recordings available here From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/23/2007 8:22:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Good morning. I specialize in AA history audio and video. I have over 200 recordings of AA pioneers who came into AA in the 1930s and 1940s plus hundreds of other AA history recordings from the 1950s and 1960s. Please email me directly at barefootbill@optonline.net (barefootbill at optonline.net) and I'll send you a listing of what I have. Thanks for allowing me to be of service and God bless. Just Love, Barefoot Bill P.S. - My audio website should be up and running in about a month at www.justloveaudio.com -----Original Message----- From: Cliff Diable Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2007 To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Historical recordings Having recently read ( and re-read) bio's and autobio's of the giants of AA, I'd like very much to actually hear some of the great speeches I've read, and heard about. Any one have a link or, perhaps info when I can listen to "My Heros"?? Interested in Bill, Lois, Dr. Bob, Nell Wing, Ebby, Drs. Silkworth, Shoemaker and Tiebeau as well as others. Thanks!! Cliff Diable Raleigh, NC IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4282. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: RE: conference-approved From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/24/2007 8:45:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In my earlier posting I used the term "literature" very broadly and perhaps should have used the term "select literature." Some replies were sent in to "clear up the confusion" and I think they created more confusion than they cleared up. The original posting noted that groups and most Delegates do not get the opportunity to adequately review literature items on the Conference agenda. I stand by that assertion. It is not a matter of Conference structure it is a matter of adopted procedure that can easily be changed given a willingness to do so. There has been a number of Conference agenda items deferred for the next following Conference to allow groups, districts and areas to review the matter and make their views known. There is no reason why this couldn't be done for literature (all literature). New literature projects as well as select items such as "The AA Group" pamphlet, 12and12, Big Book and videos are held in tight secrecy under the rubric of "work in progress" and have a very limited distribution. It is done under claims of copyright protection which I feel are unfounded. As an example, there was no reason why the foreword to the fourth edition Big Book could not have been distributed in advance for review. It would have spared the Fellowship the embarrassment of it absurdly equating on-line meetings with the home group. Last Panel, our Area Delegate, who chaired the Grapevine Conference Committee, wanted to obtain a preliminary copy of "The AA Group" pamphlet to review the proposed changes to it (which were not identified at all in the background material). She was denied access to it until right before the Conference floor session. When it comes to Conference procedure, after more than half a century there is an element of evolved reality that supersedes written philosophy. Staff members of AAWS and Grapevine participate in Conference after Conference for the duration of their employment (which can be decades). They have too much influence over literature and the Conference-approval process compared to Delegates who typically serve for two Conferences and 50% of whom rotate out each year. Again, I reiterate, that there is no reason why an extra year could not be added on to an AAWS or Grapevine publications project to permit groups, districts and areas to have far more of a say and influence over literature projects. The claim that select items of literature are withheld from broader review to "protect copyrights" is bogus. Literature is one of the primary means of "carrying the message" and groups, districts, areas and all Delegates should have far more influence over what that message says. End of rant (Rule #62). Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mitchell K. Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2007 7:31 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: conference-approved To my knowledge, any work marked "Copyright" or (c) is copyrighted - period. The revised copyright law allows for the protection of the author or entity holding copyright. Having an actual copyright certificate holds more weight legally than the other method if challenged in court. I would think that AA's crack legal teams of intellectual property lawyers would know that AAWS can register a work with the Copyright Office as it nears completion and when it is completed submit another one. If anyone "steals" the work sent out for review, the original copyright is in force and even if the language is changed I am sure that there might be enough legal evidence to challenge. ANyway, even after a copyright is secured including a copyright certificate, anyone can write a similar document changing the words etc. and get away with it. What's the big paranoid deal? You can't copyright a concept. Wider input might confuse the issue at times but some of that confusion might lead to a greater acceptnce by the Fellowship at large. Before the copyright laws were revised one had to put loan or review copy in the body of the text to have a stronger claim of copyright. Today that isn't necessary and even if not necessary why not put it on literature sent out for review anyway? This "top-secret" stuff doesn't belong in AA on ANY level. Mitchell --- Arthur S wrote: > Jim has mentioned a point that has not sat well with > me at all over the > years. > > Don't get me wrong - my issue is not with Jim by any > means, but with his > very factual statement of the notion of "copyright > protection" being used by > the Trustee's Literature Committee and GSO as an > excuse to withhold review > copies of literature from Delegates and Groups. > > Perhaps the AAHL members who are published authors > can shed some light on > the situation on whether or not there are valid > copyright concerns involved. > > To me there seems to be no reason whatsoever to deny > Delegates (or for that > matter Groups) the opportunity to review a piece of > literature well prior to > its publication. > > Outside of Directories there is no time-critical > aspect to any publication > nor is there any reason why an extra year couldn't > be added on to the > publication plan for Fellowship review. Instead, GSO > uses a notion of a > "work in progress" to make the entire process > top-secret and known only to a > select few and then claims copies of the completed > work cannot be circulated > in order to protect the copyright. > > Last Panel our Area Delegate wanted to review > planned changes to the "AA > Group" pamphlet and received the response that it > could not be done in order > to protect the copyright. That notion just doesn't > seem to hold water to me, > particularly in an age of digital rights management. > > > My understanding of the copyright process is that an > author need only mark a > work as "copyright - all rights reserved" in order > to establish initial > legal intellectual property rights prior to going > through the full legal > copyright process. Is this true? > > Cheers > Arthur > -----Original Message----- > From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf > Of > james.bliss@comcast.net > Sent: Friday, April 13, 2007 12:44 PM > To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: conference-approved > > With respect to Arthur S's statement below: > > There is a very limited number of people who > even have access to the literature with its > changes prior to the vote (substantial changes > or new literature). The Delegates may have > an opportunity to review the material > immediately prior to the vote, but the actual > changes, or new literature, is only distributed > to the people who are on the committee for > formal review and input, and they make > written recommendations regarding the changes. > > A point of interest here is that the groups > (and therefore individual members) have no > access to the literature (new or significant > changes) prior to it being approved and > published. Sort of goes against the concept > of AA being run by the groups. > > Minor changes (punctuation or slight wording) > are often published for review to the groups. > It is just significant changes, rewrites and > new literature which is not. I have been > informed this is due to a fear of copyright > issues and the material being purloined by > others. > > Jim > > > It is a rare, rare event when all Delegates > > at a Conference get a chance to review a piece > > of literature prior to voting on it. The > > review is usually done by a committee of > > several Delegates. The remainder of the > > Delegates typically vote, sight unseen, > > for/against the literature based on the > > recommendation of the committee (that's how > > the Foreword to the 4th edition statement > > about on-line meetings and the punctuation > > changes in "Dr Bob's Nightmare" and other > > changes slipped past Conference review). While > > all the Delegates vote on the literature, only > > a fraction of them actually gets to read it > > prior to voting. > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4283. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: RE: Cleveland''s claim: first use of the name Alcoholics... From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/23/2007 3:32:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I see that many members are jumping on the bandwagon in support of what was done by early members in promoting AA in their own backyard. I just returned from Akron and can positively say that AA wouldn't have been in Cleveland as AA city #3 if Dr. Bob hadn't sent Clarence S. there. Mitchell K can provide more insight on that .I remember reading that the name Alcoholics anonymous was already in use but that Cleveland was the first group to apply it to a group name. Here in Philadelphia, Jimmy B. was the promoter of the Double A. He came here to sell polish for the two men who were going to put Dupont out of business with the Honor's polish Co. Bill W and Henry"Hank" Parkhurst owned that company and Jimmy was their salesman. Ruth Hock was the secretary. Edwin Throckmorton Thatcher was in Philadelphia and not in touch with the NY mother group You guessed it , they sent Jimmy the non-believer to Philadelphia to look for Ebby , hawk some books and oh yeah to sell some automobile polish. Does anyone have a can of that polish? There were already sober men in the city in Feb of 1940 via the O.G. and with the help of Dr. C Dudley Saul. They met in the Doctors office on a regular basis. Most notable of the sober men before Jimmy came to Philadelphia was John Park Lee.He said that Jimmy brought sponsorship and emphasized the AA message that alcoholics were sick people. Jimmy had Bought $200.00 of the stock,hawked the most big books, demanded "God as I understand Him" , "The only requirement for membership is the desire to stop drinking"as well as his own story "The vicious Cycle to the Big Book. Jimmy got the medical community to support AA as well as Judge Curtis Bok, owner of the Saturday Evening Post. The Philadelphia Mother group, not just Jimmy, played a part in the publication of the Jack Alexander Article which was the greatest single boost to AA. Jimmy helped in the creation of AA in Harrisburg, Wilmington, Baltimore and in Washington D.C. with his childhood buddy John Henry Fitzhugh Mayo. Jimmy saw that NY had the first clubhouse so he got the Philly boys to get the first full service clubhouse ( a lunch counter). He had them become the 1st group to financially support New York. They started the 1st regular visits to a hospital(4/1940) by a group as well as the 1st regular visits to a prison.(9/1940) They also started the 1st monthly business meeting of a group(12/1940) and one of the first Young peoples group .(6/1946) Where have all the members of AA with this kind of energy and persistence gone? If something needed to be done, you did it. Would AA and its present service structure be able to survive if men like Clarence S, Larry J ,Fitz M, Jimmy B were around now and doing what they did? It kind of makes you wonder. I'd like to hear about other cities and what AA was like there. Yours in Service, Shakey Mike Gwirtz See You in Phoenix Sept 6-9- The 11th National Archives Workshop and Area 29 Dist 6 Archives Workshop..Sat May 26, 12:30-5:30 P.M. Christ Episcopal Church 220 Owensville Rd. West River, MD.(where Jimmy B and Fitz M were raised and are now buried) Picnic, Speakers Meeting andHistorical Presentations..A great time........ ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4284. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: RE: Cleveland''s claim: first use of the name Alcoholics... From: silkworthdotnet . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/24/2007 8:18:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII According to Mitchell's Book, How It Worked - THE STORY OF CLARENCE H. SNYDER AND THE EARLY DAYS OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS IN CLEVELAND, OHIO By Mitchell K. © 1991, 1997 Chapter 5, is a paragraph states: "A fellowship of anonymous drunks had in fact existed prior to May 11, 1939. But it was the Cleveland meeting which first used the name Alcoholics Anonymous, that it took from the book. Cleveland's May, 1939 meeting is the first documented meeting which used the name Alcoholics Anonymous, separate and apart from the Oxford Group." However, there seems to be a little more light to shed on the subject. From a page on the AA GSO Watch website there is the following stated: You may have read in ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS COMES OF AGE, page 165 The title "Alcoholics Anonymous" had appeared very early in the discussion, probably in October, 1938. We do not know who first used these words. That is questionable. As we discovered recently it appeared more than half year earlier around March 1938. How do we know that? We read ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS COMES OF AGE, page 159. "At 17 William Street, Newark, New Jersey, Henry had an office which was the headquarters for a rapidly failing business. He also had a secretary named Ruth Hock, who was to become one of A.A.'s real pioneers. The other assets consisted of a huge desk and some plush furniture. Each morning I traveled all the way from Brooklyn to Newark where, pacing up and down in Henry's office, I began to dictate rough drafts of the chapters of the coming book. As we seemed unable to come up with any genuine outline for the publication, I worked from a hastily drawn-up list of possible chapter headings. Week after week, Henry raced around among the stock subscribers, prodding them for their installments." One of us questioned the phrase "a hastily drawn-up list of possible chapter headings". What was that? Some overdue research revealed the answer. In fact said a hastily drawn-up list of possible chapter headings was a complete outline for our book Alcoholics Anonymous, created and written by Hank Parkhurst around March 1938. download document hank38.pdf 471kB Chapter 1 - Being dictated - Preface of the Book - History of this work - Questions and answers - Why the Book - What is needed - The Program - List of Chapters - The aim of the book - What is an alcoholic - The medical chapter - The Sales Promotion Possibilities - In the book should be suggestions regarding hospitalization Dr. silkworths [sic] letters. [Bill Wilson's handwriting] Hanks ideas Click on image to enlarge 2 Why the Book It has been estimated by the Rockefeller Foundation that there are over a million incurable, from medical or psychiatrical standpoints, alcoholics in the United States. These men realize their vital need and are desperately seeking the answer. The book should be so written that it will prove the answer to these people. The work has become so broad that full time assistance and direction is needed. This costs money (which has been offered by foundational funds) however the alcoholics believe it should come from within their own experience. Click on image to enlarge 3 Questions and Answers - 1. The question is often asked - where does the money come from for this work? 2. How do I know this will work with me? Why is this method better than any other religious method? (It is not - this is only a step toward a religious experience which should be carried forward in christian fellowship no matter what your church) 3. Will I fail if I cannot keep my conduct up to these highest standards? 4 - What happens when an alcoholic has a sexual relapse? 5. There is so much talk about a religious experience - what is it? Click on image to enlarge 4 Sales Promotion Possibilities The Market - 1. Over million alcoholics (Rockefeller Foundation) 2. At least million non alcoholics that have definite alcoholic relatives 3. Every employer of 100 or more people 4. Those that take an academic interest. [a] 5. Two hundred and ten thousand ministers [b] 6. One hundred sixty nine thousand physicians. 7. The total would be well over three million prospects [c] [a] this entry was first written as number 6, but the 6 was written over by a 4 and the entry was promoted with an arrow [b] First written as "Half million ministers" [c] The word "three" was written over "a" Click on image to enlarge 5 Suggestion for Chapter 1 - A History of the work - Possibly this could be carried on the first two pages of the book. This history should establish proof of success of the work and carry hope to everyone that reads that much. The opening to the book should arouse the emotion of hope. Click on image to enlarge 6 Mail order A form letter of acknowledgment must be worked out. This will acknowledge the receipt of the enquiry [sic] and will inform that the writer can secure the book by mailing two dollars [d] or through their local bookseller who can secure from Alcoholics Anonymous, Inc. Post Box xxxx The profits of the book are administered by a foundation for promotion of cure and understanding of alcoholism. [d] first written as "mailing a buck for" Click on image to enlarge 7 Title Page Alcoholics Anonymous Published by ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS, INC A NON PROFIT organization for the promotion of cure and understanding of alcoholism. Profits accruing from sale of this book will be [e] administered by a foundation for promotion of cure and understanding of alcoholism. Members of this foundation......... Post Box... xxxxxxxxx xx [e] first written as "are" and changed to "will be" Click on image to enlarge 8 Observations - One of the easiest and most talked of things among us is a religious experience. I believe that this is incomprehensible to most people. Simple and meaning words to us - but meaningless to most of the people that we are trying to get this over too. - In my mind religious experience - religion - etc - should not be brought in. We are actually irreligious - but we are trying to be helpful - we have learned to be quiet - to be more truthful - to be more honest - to try to be more unselfish - to make the other fellows troubles - our troubles - and by following four steps we most of us have a religious experience. The fellowship - the unselfishness - appeals to us. I wonder if we are off the track. A very good merchandising procedure is to find out why people do not buy our products - it is good reasoning to find out WHY - I am fearfully afraid that we are emphasizing religious experience when actually that is something that follows as a result of 1-2-3-4. In my mind the question is not particularly the strength of the experience as much as the improvement over what we were. I would ask a man to compare himself as follows after say a month - #1 - as compared to 2 months ago do you have more of a feeling that there is a power greater than you? #2 - Have you cleaned out more completely with a human being than ever before? #3 - Have you less bad things behind you than ever before #4 Have you been Click on image to enlarge 9 more honest with yourself and your fellow man - Have you been more thoughtful of people with whom you are associated - Has your life been cleaner both by thought and action - Have you looked at others less critically and yourself more critically this past 30 days. You will never be perfect but the question is have you been more perfect? Click on image to enlarge 10 Alcoholism May be best be defined to the average person by pointing out its leading symptoms and indicating how these reactions differ from the affects of alcohol on normal persons. 1. Total inability to control drinking once drinking is started. 2. Antisocial behavior of these people when intoxicated A. Marked insanity 1. Little relation the - persons normal behavior or ordinary exuberant drinker or drunk Publicity Newspapers When book is nearly ready to leave the presses a short mat article should be sent to the 12,285 newspapers in the U.S. This article would briefly cover the work as it has gone to date. Case histories would be covered. - It possibly would be a brief case history of the work and announcement of the book. At least four news bulletins should be published at weekly intervals, ahead of the book. Click on image to enlarge Here is such article -- pushed by Hank Click on image to enlarge Jim from silkworth.net --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4285. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: RE: conference-approved From: pvttimt@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/24/2007 5:43:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Arthur said, "...there is no reason why an extra year could not be added on to an AAWS or Grapevine publications project to permit groups, districts and areas to have far more of a say and influence over literature projects. The claim that select items of literature are withheld from broader review to "protect copyrights" is bogus. Literature is one of the primary means of "carrying the message" and groups, districts, areas and all Delegates should have far more influence over what that message says." Tim T., an alky. I'm reminded of a situation here in New Mexico some years ago. A well-regarded trusted servant led a project to rewrite our Area service manual, which describes our Area's service structure, the district mapping, etc. He bent over backwards trying to keep all districts and groups involved in an "informed" process, fully democratic in every way. The result of this was that, at every area assembly, the new GSRs, et. al. who had not seen the current draft, had to have their way with it. The process bogged down and became mostly a "bringing everyone up to speed" process at each assembly. Progress on the actual document was excruciatingly slow. After many, many assemblies had passed with no light at the end of the tunnel, he appealed to the Area. Once we all realized that nothing material was changing, that the needed changes had long since been made, approval was achieved and we had a working tool in our hands once again. One wonders if Arthur's claim that the groups, districts, areas should have far more influence would not deteriorate in the same way. Are we to believe that the delegates that are assigned to a particular committee, say Grapevine, do not adequately represent the fellowship? Do they not have a "right of decision?" After their work, would review by the groups, districts and areas introduce any material changes, or would changes merely be cosmetic? To Arthur's comment on the absurdity of equating online meetings with f2f home groups, I wonder if the homers, loners, nursing-home AA residents, et.al., who must depend on the internet for their daily AA look down on this, their only access, with the same disdain? Best regards. Tim. -----Original Message----- From: ArtSheehan@msn.com To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 6:45 AM Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: conference-approved In my earlier posting I used the term "literature" very broadly and perhaps should have used the term "select literature." Some replies were sent in to "clear up the confusion" and I think they created more confusion than they cleared up. The original posting noted that groups and most Delegates do not get the opportunity to adequately review literature items on the Conference agenda. I stand by that assertion. It is not a matter of Conference structure it is a matter of adopted procedure that can easily be changed given a willingness to do so. There has been a number of Conference agenda items deferred for the next following Conference to allow groups, districts and areas to review the matter and make their views known. There is no reason why this couldn't be done for literature (all literature). New literature projects as well as select items such as "The AA Group" pamphlet, 12and12, Big Book and videos are held in tight secrecy under the rubric of "work in progress" and have a very limited distribution. It is done under claims of copyright protection which I feel are unfounded. As an example, there was no reason why the foreword to the fourth edition Big Book could not have been distributed in advance for review. It would have spared the Fellowship the embarrassment of it absurdly equating on-line meetings with the home group. Last Panel, our Area Delegate, who chaired the Grapevine Conference Committee, wanted to obtain a preliminary copy of "The AA Group" pamphlet to review the proposed changes to it (which were not identified at all in the background material). She was denied access to it until right before the Conference floor session. When it comes to Conference procedure, after more than half a century there is an element of evolved reality that supersedes written philosophy. Staff members of AAWS and Grapevine participate in Conference after Conference for the duration of their employment (which can be decades). They have too much influence over literature and the Conference-approval process compared to Delegates who typically serve for two Conferences and 50% of whom rotate out each year. Again, I reiterate, that there is no reason why an extra year could not be added on to an AAWS or Grapevine publications project to permit groups, districts and areas to have far more of a say and influence over literature projects. The claim that select items of literature are withheld from broader review to "protect copyrights" is bogus. Literature is one of the primary means of "carrying the message" and groups, districts, areas and all Delegates should have far more influence over what that message says. End of rant (Rule #62). Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mitchell K. Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2007 7:31 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: conference-approved To my knowledge, any work marked "Copyright" or (c) is copyrighted - period. The revised copyright law allows for the protection of the author or entity holding copyright. Having an actual copyright certificate holds more weight legally than the other method if challenged in court. I would think that AA's crack legal teams of intellectual property lawyers would know that AAWS can register a work with the Copyright Office as it nears completion and when it is completed submit another one. If anyone "steals" the work sent out for review, the original copyright is in force and even if the language is changed I am sure that there might be enough legal evidence to challenge. ANyway, even after a copyright is secured including a copyright certificate, anyone can write a similar document changing the words etc. and get away with it. What's the big paranoid deal? You can't copyright a concept. Wider input might confuse the issue at times but some of that confusion might lead to a greater acceptnce by the Fellowship at large. Before the copyright laws were revised one had to put loan or review copy in the body of the text to have a stronger claim of copyright. Today that isn't necessary and even if not necessary why not put it on literature sent out for review anyway? This "top-secret" stuff doesn't belong in AA on ANY level. Mitchell --- Arthur S wrote: > Jim has mentioned a point that has not sat well with > me at all over the > years. > > Don't get me wrong - my issue is not with Jim by any > means, but with his > very factual statement of the notion of "copyright > protection" being used by > the Trustee's Literature Committee and GSO as an > excuse to withhold review > copies of literature from Delegates and Groups. > > Perhaps the AAHL members who are published authors > can shed some light on > the situation on whether or not there are valid > copyright concerns involved. > > To me there seems to be no reason whatsoever to deny > Delegates (or for that > matter Groups) the opportunity to review a piece of > literature well prior to > its publication. > > Outside of Directories there is no time-critical > aspect to any publication > nor is there any reason why an extra year couldn't > be added on to the > publication plan for Fellowship review. Instead, GSO > uses a notion of a > "work in progress" to make the entire process > top-secret and known only to a > select few and then claims copies of the completed > work cannot be circulated > in order to protect the copyright. > > Last Panel our Area Delegate wanted to review > planned changes to the "AA > Group" pamphlet and received the response that it > could not be done in order > to protect the copyright. That notion just doesn't > seem to hold water to me, > particularly in an age of digital rights management. > > > My understanding of the copyright process is that an > author need only mark a > work as "copyright - all rights reserved" in order > to establish initial > legal intellectual property rights prior to going > through the full legal > copyright process. Is this true? > > Cheers > Arthur > -----Original Message----- > From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf > Of > james.bliss@comcast.net > Sent: Friday, April 13, 2007 12:44 PM > To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: conference-approved > > With respect to Arthur S's statement below: > > There is a very limited number of people who > even have access to the literature with its > changes prior to the vote (substantial changes > or new literature). The Delegates may have > an opportunity to review the material > immediately prior to the vote, but the actual > changes, or new literature, is only distributed > to the people who are on the committee for > formal review and input, and they make > written recommendations regarding the changes. > > A point of interest here is that the groups > (and therefore individual members) have no > access to the literature (new or significant > changes) prior to it being approved and > published. Sort of goes against the concept > of AA being run by the groups. > > Minor changes (punctuation or slight wording) > are often published for review to the groups. > It is just significant changes, rewrites and > new literature which is not. I have been > informed this is due to a fear of copyright > issues and the material being purloined by > others. > > Jim > > > It is a rare, rare event when all Delegates > > at a Conference get a chance to review a piece > > of literature prior to voting on it. The > > review is usually done by a committee of > > several Delegates. The remainder of the > > Delegates typically vote, sight unseen, > > for/against the literature based on the > > recommendation of the committee (that's how > > the Foreword to the 4th edition statement > > about on-line meetings and the punctuation > > changes in "Dr Bob's Nightmare" and other > > changes slipped past Conference review). While > > all the Delegates vote on the literature, only > > a fraction of them actually gets to read it > > prior to voting. > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links ________________________________________________________________________ AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4286. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: RE: conference-approved From: Gotogo2002L@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/24/2007 5:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In a message dated 4/24/07 5:01:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ArtSheehan@msn.com writes: In my earlier posting I used the term "literature" very broadly and perhaps should have used the term "select literature." Some replies were sent in to "clear up the confusion" and I think they created more confusion than they cleared up. The original posting noted that groups and most Delegates do not get the opportunity to adequately review literature items on the Conference agenda. I stand by that assertion. It is not a matter of Conference structure it is a matter of adopted procedure that can easily be changed given a willingness to do so. There has been a number of Conference agenda items deferred for the next following Conference to allow groups, districts and areas to review the matter and make their views known. There is no reason why this couldn't be done for literature (all literature). New literature projects as well as select items such as "The AA Group" pamphlet, 12and12, Big Book and videos are held in tight secrecy under the rubric of "work in progress" and have a very limited distribution. It is done under claims of copyright protection which I feel are unfounded. As an example, there was no reason why the foreword to the fourth edition Big Book could not have been distributed in advance for review. It would have spared the Fellowship the embarrassment of it absurdly equating on-line meetings with the home group. Last Panel, our Area Delegate, who chaired the Grapevine Conference Committee, wanted to obtain a preliminary copy of "The AA Group" pamphlet to review the proposed changes to it (which were not identified at all in the background material). She was denied access to it until right before the Conference floor session. When it comes to Conference procedure, after more than half a century there is an element of evolved reality that supersedes written philosophy. Staff members of AAWS and Grapevine participate in Conference after Conference for the duration of their employment (which can be decades). They have too much influence over literature and the Conference-approval process compared to Delegates who typically serve for two Conferences and 50% of whom rotate out each year. Again, I reiterate, that there is no reason why an extra year could not be added on to an AAWS or Grapevine publications project to permit groups, districts and areas to have far more of a say and influence over literature projects. The claim that select items of literature are withheld from broader review to "protect copyrights" is bogus. Literature is one of the primary means of "carrying the message" and groups, districts, areas and all Delegates should have far more influence over what that message says. End of rant (Rule #62). Arthur -----Original Message----- From: _AAHistoryLovers@AAHistoryLovAAH_ (mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com) [mailto:_AAHistoryLovers@AAHistoryLovAAH_ (mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com) ] On Behalf Of Mitchell K. Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2007 7:31 PM To: _AAHistoryLovers@AAHistoryLovAAH_ (mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com) Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: conference-approved To my knowledge, any work marked "Copyright" or (c) is copyrighted - period. The revised copyright law allows for the protection of the author or entity holding copyright. Having an actual copyright certificate holds more weight legally than the other method if challenged in court. I would think that AA's crack legal teams of intellectual property lawyers would know that AAWS can register a work with the Copyright Office as it nears completion and when it is completed submit another one. If anyone "steals" the work sent out for review, the original copyright is in force and even if the language is changed I am sure that there might be enough legal evidence to challenge. ANyway, even after a copyright is secured including a copyright certificate, anyone can write a similar document changing the words etc. and get away with it. What's the big paranoid deal? You can't copyright a concept. Wider input might confuse the issue at times but some of that confusion might lead to a greater acceptnce by the Fellowship at large. Before the copyright laws were revised one had to put loan or review copy in the body of the text to have a stronger claim of copyright. Today that isn't necessary and even if not necessary why not put it on literature sent out for review anyway? This "top-secret" stuff doesn't belong in AA on ANY level. Mitchell --- Arthur S <_ArtSheehan@msn.Art_ (mailto:ArtSheehan@msn.com) > wrote: > Jim has mentioned a point that has not sat well with > me at all over the > years. > > Don't get me wrong - my issue is not with Jim by any > means, but with his > very factual statement of the notion of "copyright > protection" being used by > the Trustee's Literature Committee and GSO as an > excuse to withhold review > copies of literature from Delegates and Groups. > > Perhaps the AAHL members who are published authors > can shed some light on > the situation on whether or not there are valid > copyright concerns involved. > > To me there seems to be no reason whatsoever to deny > Delegates (or for that > matter Groups) the opportunity to review a piece of > literature well prior to > its publication. > > Outside of Directories there is no time-critical > aspect to any publication > nor is there any reason why an extra year couldn't > be added on to the > publication plan for Fellowship review. Instead, GSO > uses a notion of a > "work in progress" to make the entire process > top-secret and known only to a > select few and then claims copies of the completed > work cannot be circulated > in order to protect the copyright. > > Last Panel our Area Delegate wanted to review > planned changes to the "AA > Group" pamphlet and received the response that it > could not be done in order > to protect the copyright. That notion just doesn't > seem to hold water to me, > particularly in an age of digital rights management. > > > My understanding of the copyright process is that an > author need only mark a > work as "copyright - all rights reserved" in order > to establish initial > legal intellectual property rights prior to going > through the full legal > copyright process. Is this true? > > Cheers > Arthur > -----Original Message----- > From: _AAHistoryLovers@AAHistoryLovAAH_ (mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com) > [mailto:_AAHistoryLovers@AAHistoryLovAAH_ (mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com) ] On Behalf > Of > _james.bliss@james.bliss_ (mailto:james.bliss@comcast.net) > Sent: Friday, April 13, 2007 12:44 PM > To: _AAHistoryLovers@AAHistoryLovAAH_ (mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com) > Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: conference-approved > > With respect to Arthur S's statement below: > > There is a very limited number of people who > even have access to the literature with its > changes prior to the vote (substantial changes > or new literature). The Delegates may have > an opportunity to review the material > immediately prior to the vote, but the actual > changes, or new literature, is only distributed > to the people who are on the committee for > formal review and input, and they make > written recommendations regarding the changes. > > A point of interest here is that the groups > (and therefore individual members) have no > access to the literature (new or significant > changes) prior to it being approved and > published. Sort of goes against the concept > of AA being run by the groups. > > Minor changes (punctuation or slight wording) > are often published for review to the groups. > It is just significant changes, rewrites and > new literature which is not. I have been > informed this is due to a fear of copyright > issues and the material being purloined by > others. > > Jim > > > It is a rare, rare event when all Delegates > > at a Conference get a chance to review a piece > > of literature prior to voting on it. The > > review is usually done by a committee of > > several Delegates. The remainder of the > > Delegates typically vote, sight unseen, > > for/against the literature based on the > > recommendation of the committee (that's how > > the Foreword to the 4th edition statement > > about on-line meetings and the punctuation > > changes in "Dr Bob's Nightmare" and other > > changes slipped past Conference review). While > > all the Delegates vote on the literature, only > > a fraction of them actually gets to read it > > prior to voting. > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links This is not my experience..............my area has a spring and Fall Assembly where all the new proposed agenda items are listed for change and the groups have work shops who represent each of their groups. They then discuss the agenda items for our delegate to bring back to the conference as our collective vote. ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4287. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: RE: Cleveland''s claim: first use of the name Alcoholics... From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/25/2007 8:06:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Thank you. One of the several pages in a re-write for a second edition will correct that statement. The name Alcoholics ANonymous had been used as the title of the proposed book, organization and as the fellowship in general prior to April of 1939. I still believe that the first meeting or group to call itself an Alcoholics ANonymous group or meeting was the Golrick Group/Cleveland Group. There are a few other pieces I am going to clarify, remove, expand upon and add in the re-write. Mitchell --- silkworthdotnet wrote: > According to Mitchell's Book, > How It Worked - THE STORY OF CLARENCE H. SNYDER > AND THE EARLY DAYS OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS IN > CLEVELAND, OHIO By Mitchell K. © 1991, 1997 > Chapter 5, is a paragraph states: "A fellowship of > anonymous drunks had in fact existed prior to May > 11, 1939. But it was the Cleveland meeting which > first used the name Alcoholics Anonymous, that it > took from the book. Cleveland's May, 1939 meeting is > the first documented meeting which used the name > Alcoholics Anonymous, separate and apart from the > Oxford Group." > > However, there seems to be a little more light to > shed on the subject. From a page on the AA GSO Watch > website there is the following stated: > > You may have read in ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS COMES OF > AGE, page 165 > > The title "Alcoholics Anonymous" had > appeared very early in the discussion, probably in > October, 1938. We do not know who first used these > words. That is questionable. As we discovered > recently it appeared more than half year earlier > around March 1938. How do we know that? We read > ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS COMES OF AGE, page 159. > "At 17 William Street, Newark, New > Jersey, Henry had an office which was the > headquarters for a rapidly failing business. He also > had a secretary named Ruth Hock, who was to become > one of A.A.'s real pioneers. The other assets > consisted of a huge desk and some plush furniture. > Each morning I traveled all the way from Brooklyn to > Newark where, pacing up and down in Henry's office, > I began to dictate rough drafts of the chapters of > the coming book. As we seemed unable to come up with > any genuine outline for the publication, I worked > from a hastily drawn-up list of possible chapter > headings. Week after week, Henry raced around among > the stock subscribers, prodding them for their > installments." > > One of us questioned the phrase "a hastily > drawn-up list of possible chapter headings". What > was that? Some overdue research revealed the answer. > In fact said a hastily drawn-up list of possible > chapter headings was a complete outline for our book > Alcoholics Anonymous, created and written by Hank > Parkhurst around March 1938. download document > hank38.pdf 471kB > > > > Chapter 1 - Being dictated - > Preface of the Book - > History of this work - > Questions and answers - > Why the Book - > What is needed - > The Program - > List of Chapters - > The aim of the book - > What is an alcoholic - > The medical chapter - > The Sales Promotion Possibilities - > In the book should be suggestions regarding > hospitalization > Dr. silkworths [sic] letters. [Bill Wilson's > handwriting] Hanks ideas > > > Click on image to enlarge > 2 > Why the Book It has been estimated by the > Rockefeller > Foundation that there are over a > million incurable, from medical or > psychiatrical standpoints, alcoholics > in the United States. > These men realize their vital > need and are desperately seeking > the answer. The book should be so > written that it will prove the > answer to these people. > The work has become so broad > that full time assistance and > direction is needed. This costs > money (which has been offered > by foundational funds) however the > alcoholics believe it should > come from within their own > experience. > > > > Click on image to enlarge > 3 > Questions and Answers - 1. The question is often > asked - where does the money > come from for this work? > 2. How do I know this will work with me? > Why is this method better than any other > religious > method? (It is not - this is only a step toward > a > religious experience which should be carried > forward > in christian fellowship no matter what your > church) > 3. Will I fail if I cannot keep my conduct > up to these highest standards? > 4 - What happens when an alcoholic has a sexual > relapse? > 5. There is so much talk about a religious > experience > - what is it? > > > > Click on image to enlarge > 4 > Sales Promotion Possibilities The Market - > 1. Over million alcoholics (Rockefeller > Foundation) > 2. At least million non alcoholics > that have definite alcoholic > relatives > 3. Every employer of 100 or > more people > 4. Those that take an > academic interest. [a] > 5. Two hundred and ten thousand ministers [b] > 6. One hundred sixty nine thousand > physicians. > 7. The total would be well > over three million prospects [c] [a] this > entry was first written as number 6, > but the 6 was written over by a 4 and the > entry was promoted with an arrow > [b] First written as "Half million ministers" > [c] The word "three" was written over "a" > > > > Click on image to enlarge > 5 > Suggestion for Chapter 1 - A History of the > work - > Possibly this could be carried on > the first two pages of the book. > This history should establish > proof of success of the work > and carry hope to everyone > that reads that much. > The opening to the book > should arouse the emotion > of hope. > > > > Click on image to enlarge > 6 > Mail order A form letter of acknowledgment > > must be worked out. > This will acknowledge the receipt > of the enquiry [sic] and will inform > that the writer can secure the > book by mailing two dollars [d] > or through their local bookseller > who can secure from > Alcoholics Anonymous, Inc. > Post Box xxxx The profits of the book > are administered > by a foundation for promotion of > cure and understanding of alcoholism. [d] first > written as "mailing a buck for" > > > Click on image to enlarge > 7 > Title Page Alcoholics Anonymous Published > by > ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS, INC > A NON PROFIT organization > for the promotion of > cure and understanding > of alcoholism. Profits accruing from > sale > of this book will be [e] administered > by a foundation for promotion > of cure and understanding > of alcoholism. Members of > this foundation......... Post Box... > xxxxxxxxx xx [e] first written as "are" and > changed > to "will be" > > Click on image to enlarge 8 > Observations - One of the easiest and most > talked === message truncated === IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4288. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: RE: Cleveland''s claim: first use of the name Alcoholics... From: silkworthdotnet . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/25/2007 10:14:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII For those interested, because of the way this was posted wasn'at as I intended (because of tables, colors, and images of Hanks letter), here is the link to Hanks Letter and to chapter 5 of Mitchells Book: http://silkworth.net/gsowatch/1938/index.htm - Hanks letter http://silkworth.net/chs/chs05.html - Chapter 5 of Mitchell's Book silkworthdotnet wrote: According to Mitchell's Book, How It Worked - THE STORY OF CLARENCE H. SNYDER AND THE EARLY DAYS OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS IN CLEVELAND, OHIO By Mitchell K. © 1991, 1997 Chapter 5, is a paragraph states: "A fellowship of anonymous drunks had in fact existed prior to May 11, 1939. But it was the Cleveland meeting which first used the name Alcoholics Anonymous, that it took from the book. Cleveland's May, 1939 meeting is the first documented meeting which used the name Alcoholics Anonymous, separate and apart from the Oxford Group." However, there seems to be a little more light to shed on the subject. From a page on the AA GSO Watch website there is the following stated: You may have read in ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS COMES OF AGE, page 165 The title "Alcoholics Anonymous" had appeared very early in the discussion, probably in October, 1938. We do not know who first used these words. That is questionable. As we discovered recently it appeared more than half year earlier around March 1938. How do we know that? We read ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS COMES OF AGE, page 159. "At 17 William Street, Newark, New Jersey, Henry had an office which was the headquarters for a rapidly failing business. He also had a secretary named Ruth Hock, who was to become one of A.A.'s real pioneers. The other assets consisted of a huge desk and some plush furniture. Each morning I traveled all the way from Brooklyn to Newark where, pacing up and down in Henry's office, I began to dictate rough drafts of the chapters of the coming book. As we seemed unable to come up with any genuine outline for the publication, I worked from a hastily drawn-up list of possible chapter headings. Week after week, Henry raced around among the stock subscribers, prodding them for their installments." One of us questioned the phrase "a hastily drawn-up list of possible chapter headings". What was that? Some overdue research revealed the answer. In fact said a hastily drawn-up list of possible chapter headings was a complete outline for our book Alcoholics Anonymous, created and written by Hank Parkhurst around March 1938. download document hank38.pdf 471kB Chapter 1 - Being dictated - Preface of the Book - History of this work - Questions and answers - Why the Book - What is needed - The Program - List of Chapters - The aim of the book - What is an alcoholic - The medical chapter - The Sales Promotion Possibilities - In the book should be suggestions regarding hospitalization Dr. silkworths [sic] letters. [Bill Wilson's handwriting] Hanks ideas Click on image to enlarge 2 Why the Book It has been estimated by the Rockefeller Foundation that there are over a million incurable, from medical or psychiatrical standpoints, alcoholics in the United States. These men realize their vital need and are desperately seeking the answer. The book should be so written that it will prove the answer to these people. The work has become so broad that full time assistance and direction is needed. This costs money (which has been offered by foundational funds) however the alcoholics believe it should come from within their own experience. Click on image to enlarge 3 Questions and Answers - 1. The question is often asked - where does the money come from for this work? 2. How do I know this will work with me? Why is this method better than any other religious method? (It is not - this is only a step toward a religious experience which should be carried forward in christian fellowship no matter what your church) 3. Will I fail if I cannot keep my conduct up to these highest standards? 4 - What happens when an alcoholic has a sexual relapse? 5. There is so much talk about a religious experience - what is it? Click on image to enlarge 4 Sales Promotion Possibilities The Market - 1. Over million alcoholics (Rockefeller Foundation) 2. At least million non alcoholics that have definite alcoholic relatives 3. Every employer of 100 or more people 4. Those that take an academic interest. [a] 5. Two hundred and ten thousand ministers [b] 6. One hundred sixty nine thousand physicians. 7. The total would be well over three million prospects [c] [a] this entry was first written as number 6, but the 6 was written over by a 4 and the entry was promoted with an arrow [b] First written as "Half million ministers" [c] The word "three" was written over "a" Click on image to enlarge 5 Suggestion for Chapter 1 - A History of the work - Possibly this could be carried on the first two pages of the book. This history should establish proof of success of the work and carry hope to everyone that reads that much. The opening to the book should arouse the emotion of hope. Click on image to enlarge 6 Mail order A form letter of acknowledgment must be worked out. This will acknowledge the receipt of the enquiry [sic] and will inform that the writer can secure the book by mailing two dollars [d] or through their local bookseller who can secure from Alcoholics Anonymous, Inc. Post Box xxxx The profits of the book are administered by a foundation for promotion of cure and understanding of alcoholism. [d] first written as "mailing a buck for" Click on image to enlarge 7 Title Page Alcoholics Anonymous Published by ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS, INC A NON PROFIT organization for the promotion of cure and understanding of alcoholism. Profits accruing from sale of this book will be [e] administered by a foundation for promotion of cure and understanding of alcoholism. Members of this foundation......... Post Box... xxxxxxxxx xx [e] first written as "are" and changed to "will be" Click on image to enlarge 8 Observations - One of the easiest and most talked of things among us is a religious experience. I believe that this is incomprehensible to most people. Simple and meaning words to us - but meaningless to most of the people that we are trying to get this over too. - In my mind religious experience - religion - etc - should not be brought in. We are actually irreligious - but we are trying to be helpful - we have learned to be quiet - to be more truthful - to be more honest - to try to be more unselfish - to make the other fellows troubles - our troubles - and by following four steps we most of us have a religious experience. The fellowship - the unselfishness - appeals to us. I wonder if we are off the track. A very good merchandising procedure is to find out why people do not buy our products - it is good reasoning to find out WHY - I am fearfully afraid that we are emphasizing religious experience when actually that is something that follows as a result of 1-2-3-4. In my mind the question is not particularly the strength of the experience as much as the improvement over what we were. I would ask a man to compare himself as follows after say a month - #1 - as compared to 2 months ago do you have more of a feeling that there is a power greater than you? #2 - Have you cleaned out more completely with a human being than ever before? #3 - Have you less bad things behind you than ever before #4 Have you been Click on image to enlarge 9 more honest with yourself and your fellow man - Have you been more thoughtful of people with whom you are associated - Has your life been cleaner both by thought and action - Have you looked at others less critically and yourself more critically this past 30 days. You will never be perfect but the question is have you been more perfect? Click on image to enlarge 10 Alcoholism May be best be defined to the average person by pointing out its leading symptoms and indicating how these reactions differ from the affects of alcohol on normal persons. 1. Total inability to control drinking once drinking is started. 2. Antisocial behavior of these people when intoxicated A. Marked insanity 1. Little relation the - persons normal behavior or ordinary exuberant drinker or drunk Publicity Newspapers When book is nearly ready to leave the presses a short mat article should be sent to the 12,285 newspapers in the U.S. This article would briefly cover the work as it has gone to date. Case histories would be covered. - It possibly would be a brief case history of the work and announcement of the book. At least four news bulletins should be published at weekly intervals, ahead of the book. Click on image to enlarge Here is such article -- pushed by Hank Click on image to enlarge Jim from silkworth.net --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4289. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: RE: conference-approved From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/25/2007 5:50:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I'm reminded of a situation in NY and Akron some many decades ago. Everyone who was an AA member then had a direct opportunity to influence the drafts of a project to write a book of experience. It was the only time in AA history where that occurred. The efforts of those members produced the Big Book during 1938 and 1939. It might serve to illustrate why the book has such high stature in the Fellowship. That of course would not be practical today with nearly 2 million members. However, there is a Conference structure in place where the inverted triangle could be put into genuine practice, if perhaps someone would like to give it a try, if only as an experiment. There are no time-critical literature projects other than directories and perhaps memorial booklets for International Conventions. Their might be impatient authors but outside of directories there are no deadlines for pamphlets, books or other literature unless someone manufactures one. Using the example of a trusted servant writing an area service manual does not seem relevant. First off the development of an area manual or policies and procedures document should be a function of a special committee not a single trusted servant. Also without access to the document it is difficult to distinguish whether the delay was a matter of the quantity of its reviewers or the quality of its content. A few years ago I was involved in a committee project to write job descriptions for all the trusted servants. It took over a year and that seemed reasonable. During that same time period we also produced a set of Area Archives Guidelines and recommended Archives Guidelines for groups. When a committee brings a written project forward for assembly approval, if there is unanimity among the committee members then assembly attendees usually seem inclined to trust their trusted servants. If the committee consists of one member then it will likely take an extraordinary length of time or not follow through to completion. As for the home-bound, loners, internationalists, nursing home or hospital patients, Special Needs Committees perform a vital service to the ill and disabled to either bring them to meetings or bring meetings to them (at least in my state they do). GSO has sponsored a long-term correspondence outreach to loners and internationalists. These members can certainly benefit from internet or short-wave radio contact with other members and I'm not criticizing that point. The statement in the foreword to the 4th edition was: "Fundamentally, though, the difference between an electronic meeting and the home group around the corner is only one of format." That statement is absurd. Enough other folks thought so as well to cause it to be removed from the foreword. Further if one is going to use a segment of the population to illustrate a point, it is probably a bit more consistent with Tradition 1 to use the population segment in which something happens the most as opposed to the least. Finally, if I truly had a disdain for AA members using the internet to reach out to other AA members I would not be a part of this forum. Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of pvttimt@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 4:44 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: conference-approved Arthur said, "...there is no reason why an extra year could not be added on to an AAWS or Grapevine publications project to permit groups, districts and areas to have far more of a say and influence over literature projects. The claim that select items of literature are withheld from broader review to "protect copyrights" is bogus. Literature is one of the primary means of "carrying the message" and groups, districts, areas and all Delegates should have far more influence over what that message says." Arthur Tim T., an alky. I'm reminded of a situation here in New Mexico some years ago. A well-regarded trusted servant led a project to rewrite our Area service manual, which describes our Area's service structure, the district mapping, etc. He bent over backwards trying to keep all districts and groups involved in an "informed" process, fully democratic in every way. The result of this was that, at every area assembly, the new GSRs, et. al. who had not seen the current draft, had to have their way with it. The process bogged down and became mostly a "bringing everyone up to speed" process at each assembly. Progress on the actual document was excruciatingly slow. After many, many assemblies had passed with no light at the end of the tunnel, he appealed to the Area. Once we all realized that nothing material was changing, that the needed changes had long since been made, approval was achieved and we had a working tool in our hands once again. One wonders if Arthur's claim that the groups, districts, areas should have far more influence would not deteriorate in the same way. Are we to believe that the delegates that are assigned to a particular committee, say Grapevine, do not adequately represent the fellowship? Do they not have a "right of decision?" After their work, would review by the groups, districts and areas introduce any material changes, or would changes merely be cosmetic? To Arthur's comment on the absurdity of equating online meetings with f2f home groups, I wonder if the homers, loners, nursing-home AA residents, et.al., who must depend on the internet for their daily AA look down on this, their only access, with the same disdain? Best regards. Tim. -----Original Message----- From: ArtSheehan@msn.com To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 6:45 AM Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: conference-approved In my earlier posting I used the term "literature" very broadly and perhaps should have used the term "select literature." Some replies were sent in to "clear up the confusion" and I think they created more confusion than they cleared up. The original posting noted that groups and most Delegates do not get the opportunity to adequately review literature items on the Conference agenda. I stand by that assertion. It is not a matter of Conference structure it is a matter of adopted procedure that can easily be changed given a willingness to do so. There has been a number of Conference agenda items deferred for the next following Conference to allow groups, districts and areas to review the matter and make their views known. There is no reason why this couldn't be done for literature (all literature). New literature projects as well as select items such as "The AA Group" pamphlet, 12and12, Big Book and videos are held in tight secrecy under the rubric of "work in progress" and have a very limited distribution. It is done under claims of copyright protection which I feel are unfounded. As an example, there was no reason why the foreword to the fourth edition Big Book could not have been distributed in advance for review. It would have spared the Fellowship the embarrassment of it absurdly equating on-line meetings with the home group. Last Panel, our Area Delegate, who chaired the Grapevine Conference Committee, wanted to obtain a preliminary copy of "The AA Group" pamphlet to review the proposed changes to it (which were not identified at all in the background material). She was denied access to it until right before the Conference floor session. When it comes to Conference procedure, after more than half a century there is an element of evolved reality that supersedes written philosophy. Staff members of AAWS and Grapevine participate in Conference after Conference for the duration of their employment (which can be decades). They have too much influence over literature and the Conference-approval process compared to Delegates who typically serve for two Conferences and 50% of whom rotate out each year. Again, I reiterate, that there is no reason why an extra year could not be added on to an AAWS or Grapevine publications project to permit groups, districts and areas to have far more of a say and influence over literature projects. The claim that select items of literature are withheld from broader review to "protect copyrights" is bogus. Literature is one of the primary means of "carrying the message" and groups, districts, areas and all Delegates should have far more influence over what that message says. End of rant (Rule #62). Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mitchell K. Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2007 7:31 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: conference-approved To my knowledge, any work marked "Copyright" or (c) is copyrighted - period. The revised copyright law allows for the protection of the author or entity holding copyright. Having an actual copyright certificate holds more weight legally than the other method if challenged in court. I would think that AA's crack legal teams of intellectual property lawyers would know that AAWS can register a work with the Copyright Office as it nears completion and when it is completed submit another one. If anyone "steals" the work sent out for review, the original copyright is in force and even if the language is changed I am sure that there might be enough legal evidence to challenge. ANyway, even after a copyright is secured including a copyright certificate, anyone can write a similar document changing the words etc. and get away with it. What's the big paranoid deal? You can't copyright a concept. Wider input might confuse the issue at times but some of that confusion might lead to a greater acceptnce by the Fellowship at large. Before the copyright laws were revised one had to put loan or review copy in the body of the text to have a stronger claim of copyright. Today that isn't necessary and even if not necessary why not put it on literature sent out for review anyway? This "top-secret" stuff doesn't belong in AA on ANY level. Mitchell --- Arthur S wrote: > Jim has mentioned a point that has not sat well with > me at all over the > years. > > Don't get me wrong - my issue is not with Jim by any > means, but with his > very factual statement of the notion of "copyright > protection" being used by > the Trustee's Literature Committee and GSO as an > excuse to withhold review > copies of literature from Delegates and Groups. > > Perhaps the AAHL members who are published authors > can shed some light on > the situation on whether or not there are valid > copyright concerns involved. > > To me there seems to be no reason whatsoever to deny > Delegates (or for that > matter Groups) the opportunity to review a piece of > literature well prior to > its publication. > > Outside of Directories there is no time-critical > aspect to any publication > nor is there any reason why an extra year couldn't > be added on to the > publication plan for Fellowship review. Instead, GSO > uses a notion of a > "work in progress" to make the entire process > top-secret and known only to a > select few and then claims copies of the completed > work cannot be circulated > in order to protect the copyright. > > Last Panel our Area Delegate wanted to review > planned changes to the "AA > Group" pamphlet and received the response that it > could not be done in order > to protect the copyright. That notion just doesn't > seem to hold water to me, > particularly in an age of digital rights management. > > > My understanding of the copyright process is that an > author need only mark a > work as "copyright - all rights reserved" in order > to establish initial > legal intellectual property rights prior to going > through the full legal > copyright process. Is this true? > > Cheers > Arthur > -----Original Message----- > From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf > Of > james.bliss@comcast.net > Sent: Friday, April 13, 2007 12:44 PM > To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: conference-approved > > With respect to Arthur S's statement below: > > There is a very limited number of people who > even have access to the literature with its > changes prior to the vote (substantial changes > or new literature). The Delegates may have > an opportunity to review the material > immediately prior to the vote, but the actual > changes, or new literature, is only distributed > to the people who are on the committee for > formal review and input, and they make > written recommendations regarding the changes. > > A point of interest here is that the groups > (and therefore individual members) have no > access to the literature (new or significant > changes) prior to it being approved and > published. Sort of goes against the concept > of AA being run by the groups. > > Minor changes (punctuation or slight wording) > are often published for review to the groups. > It is just significant changes, rewrites and > new literature which is not. I have been > informed this is due to a fear of copyright > issues and the material being purloined by > others. > > Jim > > > It is a rare, rare event when all Delegates > > at a Conference get a chance to review a piece > > of literature prior to voting on it. The > > review is usually done by a committee of > > several Delegates. The remainder of the > > Delegates typically vote, sight unseen, > > for/against the literature based on the > > recommendation of the committee (that's how > > the Foreword to the 4th edition statement > > about on-line meetings and the punctuation > > changes in "Dr Bob's Nightmare" and other > > changes slipped past Conference review). While > > all the Delegates vote on the literature, only > > a fraction of them actually gets to read it > > prior to voting. > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links ________________________________________________________________________ AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4290. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: RE: conference-approved From: ricktompkins . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/26/2007 5:21:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Continuing this thread with the theme "Our Twelfth Step Responsibility-Area We Going to Any Lengths?"--- This year's General Service Conference has an opportunity to approve or disapprove the proposal to discontinue printing the AA Meeting Directories (US and Canada). It has the idea that AAs can access the Internet, for example, to find a meeting anywhere out of the US Eastern Directory. It's a first, but a password-controlled list, an unavailability of computers, and a few other points make this proposal from the Maine Area Delegate a bit rough to implement. Conference Report and Charter Committee may take the best route and "take no action." Conference-approved material, available at all groups (but without a contact and printed list booklets?) would slow down our traveling recoveries and 12th Step efforts with an online Directory. Rick, Illinois _____ From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 4:51 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: conference-approved . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4291. . . . . . . . . . . . "Master Copy" of Big Book to be Auctioned Again From: schaberg43 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/23/2007 4:16:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have been informed by a reliable source that the `Original Manuscript' of the Big Book which was auctioned off by Sotheby's in June of 2004 (for $1,576,000!) will again be offered for sale at auction on June 22nd. Sotheby's has set the estimated value for this sale at $900,000 to $1,200,000. (NOTE: it was set at $300,000 to $500,000 in 2004.) Sotheby's physical description of the book in 2004 was as follows: "Original annotated multilith copy, a working draft of Alcoholics Anonymous, with a multitude of annotations by William Griffith Wilson ("Bill W.") and others, 161 pages (3 are handwritten in pencil by several hands), New York, 1938, with presentation leaf by Lois Wilson: "I joyfully give this multilith copy of the AA book, one of my most precious possessions, to you, dear Barry, as evidence of my deep gratitude for all you have done for AA, for Al-Anon, and particularly for me ... 1/1/78"; annotations in lead, green, and red pencil, lightly browned. Each leaf encased in mylar and bound in a blue cloth binder, morocco lettering-piece ("Printer's Copy M[anu]s [cript])"; joints and corners rubbed." This is the `master copy' of the `Multilith Edition' – the one into which Hank Parkhurst, Ruth Hoch and Bill Wilson transcribed ALL of the suggested changes to the Big Book text as they were submitted to them in late 1938 and early 1939. (I believe that most of the annotations are in Hank's – rather than Bill's – handwriting.) Despite the title on the more recent binding, at some later point, using this `master copy as a reference, a `printer's copy' was prepared for Cornwall Press – but, to my knowledge, that `printer's copy' has never been located. The `master copy' being auctioned is of the highest historical importance providing an essential record of how our Book was put together. While it is possible to take any one of the rare surviving multilith copy of the `Original Manuscript' and compare it to a 1st edition, 1st printing copy to see what changes were made, this `master copy' occasionally shows who made the suggestions and, more important, clearly shows what suggestions were NOT taken by the final editors of the Big Book. This provides invaluable insight into the final editor's creative thought process and into their true understanding of what did and did not constitute the true AA program just as the book went to press. As is usual with book auctions, this Original Manuscript will be available for viewing (and handling!) a few days before the auction in New York City. (In 2004, my sponsor and I traveled down there to `put our hands on the book' and, I must say, it was a very moving experience.) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4292. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "Master Copy" of Big Book to be Auctioned Again From: Fiona Dodd . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/27/2007 6:54:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Regarding the auction of the manuscript the auction will be held on June 21st according to Sothebys not June 22nd. Fiona [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4293. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Big Book "Outline" From: johnlawlee . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/28/2007 4:29:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Although styled as "Hanks [sic] letter [sic]", the twelve pages of lined tablet appear to be handwritten notes from two, or possibly three, different persons. The pages are undated and untitled. The handwriting saying "Hanks ideas" is most likely Bill Wilson's inscription, but does anyone have facts to authenticate that any of the writing on those twelve pages is Hank Parkhurst's? It is significant that the notation "Hanks ideas" come AFTER the purported outline,not before; consequently, Hank's ideas would be the material coming after the putative outline. The first page is not an "outline" of the Big Book, as claimed by some, but appears to be an outline of a Business Plan to promote the Book. In any case, few if any of those ideas made their way into the Big Book. It seems quite a stretch to claim that the first page is an outline of what became the Big Book. While "Hanks ideas" didn't make it into the manuscript or the First Printing, they DID become the incubator for the Spiritual Experience Appendix in the Second Printing [and subsequent printings/editions]. john lee pittsburgh-- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, silkworthdotnet wrote: > > For those interested, because of the way this was posted wasn'at as I intended (because of tables, colors, and images of Hanks letter), here is the link to Hanks Letter and to chapter 5 of Mitchells Book: > > http://silkworth.net/gsowatch/1938/index.htm - Hanks letter > > http://silkworth.net/chs/chs05.html - Chapter 5 of Mitchell's Book > > silkworthdotnet wrote: > According to Mitchell's Book, > How It Worked - THE STORY OF CLARENCE H. SNYDER AND THE EARLY DAYS OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS IN CLEVELAND, OHIO By Mitchell K. © 1991, 1997 > Chapter 5, is a paragraph states: "A fellowship of anonymous drunks had in fact existed prior to May 11, 1939. But it was the Cleveland meeting which first used the name Alcoholics Anonymous, that it took from the book. Cleveland's May, 1939 meeting is the first documented meeting which used the name Alcoholics Anonymous, separate and apart from the Oxford Group." > > However, there seems to be a little more light to shed on the subject. From a page on the AA GSO Watch website there is the following stated: > > You may have read in ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS COMES OF AGE, page 165 > > The title "Alcoholics Anonymous" had appeared very early in the discussion, probably in October, 1938. We do not know who first used these words. That is questionable. As we discovered recently it appeared more than half year earlier around March 1938. How do we know that? We read ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS COMES OF AGE, page 159. > "At 17 William Street, Newark, New Jersey, Henry had an office which was the headquarters for a rapidly failing business. He also had a secretary named Ruth Hock, who was to become one of A.A.'s real pioneers. The other assets consisted of a huge desk and some plush furniture. Each morning I traveled all the way from Brooklyn to Newark where, pacing up and down in Henry's office, I began to dictate rough drafts of the chapters of the coming book. As we seemed unable to come up with any genuine outline for the publication, I worked from a hastily drawn-up list of possible chapter headings. Week after week, Henry raced around among the stock subscribers, prodding them for their installments." > > One of us questioned the phrase "a hastily drawn-up list of possible chapter headings". What was that? Some overdue research revealed the answer. In fact said a hastily drawn-up list of possible chapter headings was a complete outline for our book Alcoholics Anonymous, created and written by Hank Parkhurst around March 1938. download document hank38.pdf 471kB > > Chapter 1 - Being dictated - > Preface of the Book - > History of this work - > Questions and answers - > Why the Book - > What is needed - > The Program - > List of Chapters - > The aim of the book - > What is an alcoholic - > The medical chapter - > The Sales Promotion Possibilities - > In the book should be suggestions regarding > hospitalization > Dr. silkworths [sic] letters. [Bill Wilson's handwriting] Hanks ideas > > > Click on image to enlarge 2 > Why the Book It has been estimated by the Rockefeller > Foundation that there are over a > million incurable, from medical or > psychiatrical standpoints, alcoholics > in the United States. > These men realize their vital > need and are desperately seeking > the answer. The book should be so > written that it will prove the > answer to these people. > The work has become so broad > that full time assistance and > direction is needed. This costs > money (which has been offered > by foundational funds) however the > alcoholics believe it should > come from within their own > experience. > > > > Click on image to enlarge 3 > Questions and Answers - 1. The question is often asked - where does the money > come from for this work? > 2. How do I know this will work with me? > Why is this method better than any other religious > method? (It is not - this is only a step toward a > religious experience which should be carried forward > in christian fellowship no matter what your church) > 3. Will I fail if I cannot keep my conduct > up to these highest standards? > 4 - What happens when an alcoholic has a sexual > relapse? > 5. There is so much talk about a religious experience > - what is it? > > > > Click on image to enlarge 4 > Sales Promotion Possibilities The Market - > 1. Over million alcoholics (Rockefeller Foundation) > 2. At least million non alcoholics > that have definite alcoholic > relatives > 3. Every employer of 100 or > more people > 4. Those that take an > academic interest. [a] > 5. Two hundred and ten thousand ministers [b] > 6. One hundred sixty nine thousand > physicians. > 7. The total would be well > over three million prospects [c] [a] this entry was first written as number 6, > but the 6 was written over by a 4 and the > entry was promoted with an arrow > [b] First written as "Half million ministers" > [c] The word "three" was written over "a" > > > > Click on image to enlarge 5 > Suggestion for Chapter 1 - A History of the work - > Possibly this could be carried on > the first two pages of the book. > This history should establish > proof of success of the work > and carry hope to everyone > that reads that much. > The opening to the book > should arouse the emotion > of hope. > > > > Click on image to enlarge 6 > Mail order A form letter of acknowledgment > must be worked out. > This will acknowledge the receipt > of the enquiry [sic] and will inform > that the writer can secure the > book by mailing two dollars [d] > or through their local bookseller > who can secure from > Alcoholics Anonymous, Inc. > Post Box xxxx The profits of the book are administered > by a foundation for promotion of > cure and understanding of alcoholism. [d] first written as "mailing a buck for" > > > Click on image to enlarge 7 > Title Page Alcoholics Anonymous Published by > ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS, INC > A NON PROFIT organization > for the promotion of > cure and understanding > of alcoholism. Profits accruing from sale > of this book will be [e] administered > by a foundation for promotion > of cure and understanding > of alcoholism. Members of > this foundation......... Post Box... > xxxxxxxxx xx [e] first written as "are" and changed > to "will be" > > Click on image to enlarge 8 > Observations - One of the easiest and most talked of > things among us is a religious experience. > I believe that this is incomprehensible to > most people. Simple and meaning words > to us - but meaningless to most of > the people that we are trying to get > this over too. - In my mind religious > experience - religion - etc - should > not be brought in. We are actually > irreligious - but we are trying to be > helpful - we have learned to be > quiet - to be more truthful - to be > more honest - to try to be more > unselfish - to make the other fellows > troubles - our troubles - and by > following four steps we most of us > have a religious experience. The fellowship - > the unselfishness - appeals to us. > I wonder if we are off the track. > A very good merchandising > procedure is to find out why > people do not buy our > products - it is good reasoning > to find out WHY - I am fearfully > afraid that we are emphasizing > religious experience when actually > that is something that follows > as a result of 1-2-3-4. > In my mind the question is not particularly > the strength of the experience as > much as the improvement over > what we were. I would ask a > man to compare himself as follows > after say a month - > #1 - as compared to 2 months ago > do you have more of a feeling > that there is a power greater > than you? > #2 - Have you cleaned out more > completely with a human being > than ever before? > #3 - Have you less bad things > behind you than ever > before > #4 Have you been > > > Click on image to enlarge > 9 > more honest with yourself and your > fellow man - Have you been > more thoughtful of people with > whom you are associated - Has > your life been cleaner both by > thought and action - Have you > looked at others less critically and > yourself more critically this past > 30 days. You will never be > perfect but the question is > have you been more perfect? > Click on image to enlarge 10 > Alcoholism May be best be defined to the > average person by pointing out > its leading symptoms and indicating > how these reactions differ from the > affects of alcohol on normal persons. > 1. Total inability to control drinking > once drinking is started. > 2. Antisocial behavior of these people > when intoxicated > A. Marked insanity > 1. Little relation the - persons normal > behavior or ordinary > exuberant drinker or drunk > > > Publicity > Newspapers When book is nearly ready to > leave the presses a short mat > article should be sent to the > 12,285 newspapers in the U.S. > This article would briefly cover > the work as it has gone to date. > Case histories would be covered. > - It possibly would be a brief > case history of the work and > announcement of the book. > At least four news bulletins > should be published at weekly > intervals, ahead of the book. > > Click on image to enlarge > > Here is such article -- pushed by Hank > > Click on image to enlarge > > Jim from silkworth.net > > --------------------------------- > Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? > Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? > Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4294. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: Big Book "Outline" From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/29/2007 5:11:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII How I came upon that document was in fact to verify that it actually was Hank’s handwriting. I was asked by the then archivist at Stepping Stones to view the pages there. They had no samples of Hank’s handwriting to compare it with. I brought a few of Hank’s handwritten letters with me and we compared the document against actual samples. Another verification came through Merton M. who also is familiar with Hank’s writing (both style and actual handwriting). To my knowledge, Merton and I are probably two of the very few people around who actually could verify Hank’s handwriting. Neither Nell Wing nor Frank M. had samples of Hank’s handwriting to compare it to when I brought copies of the document to them. While some may argue semantics, what I wrote was that “Hanks ideas” was his outline FOR the book and not an outline OF the book. Hank’s notations were part of the discussion stages not only for the writing of the book but for the promotion of the book as well. The book was not yet written at that time and the first chapter was in the dictation stage. They were also discussing the demographics of what type of persons the stories would represent. Not included with Hank’s proposal published on-line was another document outlining prospective authors. These authors were not listed by name but by the listing of whether or not they were low bottom or high bottom, whether or not they had slipped, their occupation, geographic location, etc. Not published on the net but included with the document was also a list of occupations of prospective authors for the story section. There were 25 occupations numbered and listed. Some had a check next to the name. I’m not sure what the check signified but I will not where they appeared with an * (The first two are pretty obvious): 1. Broker * 2. Surgeon 3. Politician 4. Executive * 5. Sales Manager * 6. Author * 7. Radio Man 8. Laborer * 9. Accountant * 10. Proprietor very large retail business * 11. Housewife * 12. Mechanic * 13. Judge * 14. Insurance * 15. Teacher 16. Upholsterer 17. Gardener 18. Salesman 19. Book Agent 20. Test car driver 21. Farmer 22. Laboratory technician 23. banker 24. athlete 25. Oil man John States that : “The first page is not an "outline" of the Big Book, as claimed by some, but appears to be an outline of a Business Plan to promote the Book.” The first page is actually an outline of the proceeding pages. If it were merely a business plan to promote the book why then would it list: • Preface of the book • The Program • The aim of the book • What is an alcoholic • The medical chapter • In the book should be suggestions regarding hospitalization • Dr. Silkworth letters Page 2 states under “Why the Book,” that “The work has become so broad that full time assistance and direction is needed. This costs money (which has been offered by foundational funds) however the alcoholics believe it should come from within their own experience.” On page 3 under “Questions and Answers” it asks in part: • How do I know this will work with me? Why is this method better than any other religious method? (It is not – this is only a step toward a religious experience which should be carried forward in Christian fellowship no matter what your church) • Will I fail if I cannot keep my conduct up to these highest standards? • What happens when an alcoholic has a sexual relapse? Under Suggestions for Chapter 1 on page 5 it calls for “A History of the work – Possibly this could be carried on the first two pages of the book. This history should establish proof of success of the work and carry ‘hope’ to everyone that reads that much. The opening of the book should arouse the emotion of hope.” This does not sound like a sales promotion but rather a suggestion relating to the actual writing and outline for the book. This document relates not only to the sales and promotion of the yet unwritten book, it addresses proposals for what Hank feels should be included and why these subjects should be included. There is no significance as to where in the document Bill wrote “Hanks ideas”. Bill wanted to identify whose ideas these were and the bottom of the page was open. Hank probably handed these pages to Bill and they discussed them. Bill wanted to file these with materials relating to the writing of the book as the book was being written and wrote “Hanks ideas” as a means of identification of whose ideas the were. Bill did not hand Hank a blank piece of paper with the title Hank’s Ideas and ask Hank to write an essay. Hank and Bill were partners in the work and the fact that equal partners do not need to quibble about whether or not Bill’s notation came BEFORE or AFTER the “purported” outline of suggested ideas for the book and promotion of the book. Taking the document in its entirety, it is in no way just a sales promotion prospectus or “Business Plan.” Given the fact that Bill and Hank were partners in the writing of the book, they bounced ideas off each other in that very small office on the 6h floor at 17 William St in Newark. Also, to infer that Hank’s ideas did not make it into the book does not take into account what is addressed in the entire document. Maybe not specific subject titles on the cover page but in fact what made it into the book IS covered in this document. In conclusion – Verification that the document was Hank’s handwriting was made by comparing actual letters written by Hank against the original document by several individuals – Frank M., Nell Wing, myself, Merton M. and the then archivist at Stepping stones. The document came from Stepping Stones and were part of Bill’s materials relating to the writing of the book. Bill’s handwriting as to “Hanks ideas” was also verified by the aforementioned individuals. To infer that just because Bill annotated “Hanks ideas” AFTER the title page as anything other than as a means of identifying the document is also a stretch and to question the veracity of the document by words such as purported or putative implies fabrication. The FACT that the document was verified to be Hank’s handwriting by at least four individuals including the former archivist at GSO, the then current archivist at GSO, the then archivist at Stepping Stones and probably the only two other people in the world who had samples of Hank’s actual handwriting would probably stand up in court. The FACT that this document was part of Bill’s papers relating to the writing of the book and was housed in the archival repository at Bill and Lois’ home at Stepping Stones would verify its authenticity and also stand up in court. The FACT that if one looked at any author’s notes during the writing process of their books or papers one would usually not find these documents, ideas, scribbling, etc. dated or titled. I am also sure that if one looked at the handwritten story submissions also stored at Stepping Stones you would not find these dated or titled either. The actual titles for the stories in the book were not submitted by the authors of the stories but were decided upon AFTER the stories were submitted. I take umbrage to the inference of fabrication as well. I did not seek out this document. At the time it was discovered I was asked as one of probably only two or three people in the world familiar with Hank’s handwriting and in possession of actual letter written by Hank to verify the handwriting. As a matter of course I showed the document and samples of Hank’s handwriting to several other “experts” in AA documents to verify my findings. Mitchell K. --- johnlawlee wrote: > Although styled as "Hanks [sic] letter [sic]", the > twelve pages of > lined tablet appear to be handwritten notes from > two, or possibly > three, different persons. The pages are undated and > untitled. The > handwriting saying "Hanks ideas" is most likely Bill > Wilson's > inscription, but does anyone have facts to > authenticate that any of > the writing on those twelve pages is Hank > Parkhurst's? It is > significant that the notation "Hanks ideas" come > AFTER the purported > outline,not before; consequently, Hank's ideas would > be the material > coming after the putative outline. The first page > is not > an "outline" of the Big Book, as claimed by some, > but appears to be > an outline of a Business Plan to promote the Book. > In any case, few > if any of those ideas made their way into the Big > Book. It seems > quite a stretch to claim that the first page is an > outline of what > became the Big Book. While "Hanks ideas" didn't make > it into the > manuscript or the First Printing, they DID become > the incubator for > the Spiritual Experience Appendix in the Second > Printing [and > subsequent printings/editions]. > john lee IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4295. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Re: Big Book "Outline" From: ricktompkins . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/29/2007 12:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Thank you for your post, Mitch, it clears up a bit of the intrigue about this rare archival item. If the "printer's manuscript" was purchased three years ago for $1.56 millions what will speculators pay this year? On one hand I am saddened that the item has not been placed in the AA Archives at GSO, and remain amused that its auction brings such deep pocketed people to the bidding. The AA Archives had no opinion on its auction in 2004 and I wouldn't expect any comment this year. Looks like "aahistorylovers" can help bring this in the light of day...I had the opportunity in 2004 to present the Sotheby's activity to my Area in its annual Big Book Conference and in my talk I shared that establishing private archives collections is an AA's personal choice. Some can spend a lot of money pursuing and purchasing AA memorabilia and may God bless them if they can keep their sobriety in the process. How we get to this point in 2007-this manuscript belonged to the estate of Barry L, the author of AAWS' Living Sober and a close friend of Lois Wilson. He also served as the chief writer for Al-Anon's Lois' Story. Apparently she held sympathy for Barry's claim that the early 1970s General Service Board had not competitively paid him for the work on the AAWS book and she gave the manuscript to him as a gift. 25 years later Barry's heirs decided to cash in on its sale. Of course, the item was a cherished part of Bill's estate, given to Barry in friendship. Bill's handwriting may or may not have been written in later years as he inventoried many of his papers (preceding the mid-1950s AA history project?) and I can't help but assume that the "book outline" from Hank was input toward a consensus on just how to organize and title the chapters. Another egroup recently discussed the authorship of the Big Book, which is "officially" denoted by the General Service Board as written by Bill, but the number of editors and the wide scope of building the consensus on its final form tells a beautiful story! Hank's organization skill was indispensable and Bill W.'s and Bob S.' insightful writing (as well as the AAs writing their own personal stories) was priceless. The assistance of Jim S. of Akron, Tom U. of NYC, Ruth Hock's dictation-typing, her language ability, and the last-minute editing by the Cornwall Press staff on the verbiage all came together to bring this work home to the world in February 1939. I am a better and more appreciative AA member and historian because of the actions of those founders. Rick, Illinois p.s. in that talk on the Big Book's history, instead of dropping names that no one would remember, the career occupations of Big Book writers (in all the first three editions) brought an insight to those at the conference and I credited this egroup (and our initial 'aahistorybuffs') as a primary source. Love to you all, ---R. _____ From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mitchell K. Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 4:11 AM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Big Book "Outline" . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4296. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: Big Book "Outline" From: John Lee . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/29/2007 1:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Mitchell, I never claimed that the twelve page document was false or forged. The terms "putative" and "purported" refer to your conclusion that the first page was an "outline" of the Big Book. It was no such thing. Please review your own How It Worked book where you make that claim repeatedly on pages 96, 98 and 102.[eg, "Hank wrote, in his outline for the book, p. 102"]. "Hanks ideas" did not make it into the Big Book. There is no evidence, direct or circumstantial, that the purported outline was even circulated to anyone other than Bill or Hank, let alone becoming the "guidelines for the writing efforts of AA's founders,who supplied their manuscripts (sic)", as claimed in your book at page 98. The ideas in those twelve pages did not make it into the big book, at least until the 1941 Second Printing when Hank's ideas about spiritual experience were included in the Spiritual Experience Appendix. It would be helpful if you posted the alleged samples of Hank's writings on the Internet, so impartial parties could compare those writings with the purported "outline". love+service, john lee vist@yahoo.com> wrote: How I came upon that document was in fact to verify that it actually was Hank’s handwriting. I was asked by the then archivist at Stepping Stones to view the pages there. They had no samples of Hank’s handwriting to compare it with. I brought a few of Hank’s handwritten letters with me and we compared the document against actual samples. Another verification came through Merton M. who also is familiar with Hank’s writing (both style and actual handwriting). To my knowledge, Merton and I are probably two of the very few people around who actually could verify Hank’s handwriting. Neither Nell Wing nor Frank M. had samples of Hank’s handwriting to compare it to when I brought copies of the document to them. While some may argue semantics, what I wrote was that “Hanks ideas” was his outline FOR the book and not an outline OF the book. Hank’s notations were part of the discussion stages not only for the writing of the book but for the promotion of the book as well. The book was not yet written at that time and the first chapter was in the dictation stage. They were also discussing the demographics of what type of persons the stories would represent. Not included with Hank’s proposal published on-line was another document outlining prospective authors. These authors were not listed by name but by the listing of whether or not they were low bottom or high bottom, whether or not they had slipped, their occupation, geographic location, etc. Not published on the net but included with the document was also a list of occupations of prospective authors for the story section. There were 25 occupations numbered and listed. Some had a check next to the name. I’m not sure what the check signified but I will not where they appeared with an * (The first two are pretty obvious): 1. Broker * 2. Surgeon 3. Politician 4. Executive * 5. Sales Manager * 6. Author * 7. Radio Man 8. Laborer * 9. Accountant * 10. Proprietor very large retail business * 11. Housewife * 12. Mechanic * 13. Judge * 14. Insurance * 15. Teacher 16. Upholsterer 17. Gardener 18. Salesman 19. Book Agent 20. Test car driver 21. Farmer 22. Laboratory technician 23. banker 24. athlete 25. Oil man John States that : “The first page is not an "outline" of the Big Book, as claimed by some, but appears to be an outline of a Business Plan to promote the Book.” The first page is actually an outline of the proceeding pages. If it were merely a business plan to promote the book why then would it list: • Preface of the book • The Program • The aim of the book • What is an alcoholic • The medical chapter • In the book should be suggestions regarding hospitalization • Dr. Silkworth letters Page 2 states under “Why the Book,” that “The work has become so broad that full time assistance and direction is needed. This costs money (which has been offered by foundational funds) however the alcoholics believe it should come from within their own experience.” On page 3 under “Questions and Answers” it asks in part: • How do I know this will work with me? Why is this method better than any other religious method? (It is not – this is only a step toward a religious experience which should be carried forward in Christian fellowship no matter what your church) • Will I fail if I cannot keep my conduct up to these highest standards? • What happens when an alcoholic has a sexual relapse? Under Suggestions for Chapter 1 on page 5 it calls for “A History of the work – Possibly this could be carried on the first two pages of the book. This history should establish proof of success of the work and carry ‘hope’ to everyone that reads that much. The opening of the book should arouse the emotion of hope.” This does not sound like a sales promotion but rather a suggestion relating to the actual writing and outline for the book. This document relates not only to the sales and promotion of the yet unwritten book, it addresses proposals for what Hank feels should be included and why these subjects should be included. There is no significance as to where in the document Bill wrote “Hanks ideas”. Bill wanted to identify whose ideas these were and the bottom of the page was open. Hank probably handed these pages to Bill and they discussed them. Bill wanted to file these with materials relating to the writing of the book as the book was being written and wrote “Hanks ideas” as a means of identification of whose ideas the were. Bill did not hand Hank a blank piece of paper with the title Hank’s Ideas and ask Hank to write an essay. Hank and Bill were partners in the work and the fact that equal partners do not need to quibble about whether or not Bill’s notation came BEFORE or AFTER the “purported” outline of suggested ideas for the book and promotion of the book. Taking the document in its entirety, it is in no way just a sales promotion prospectus or “Business Plan.” Given the fact that Bill and Hank were partners in the writing of the book, they bounced ideas off each other in that very small office on the 6h floor at 17 William St in Newark. Also, to infer that Hank’s ideas did not make it into the book does not take into account what is addressed in the entire document. Maybe not specific subject titles on the cover page but in fact what made it into the book IS covered in this document. In conclusion – Verification that the document was Hank’s handwriting was made by comparing actual letters written by Hank against the original document by several individuals – Frank M., Nell Wing, myself, Merton M. and the then archivist at Stepping stones. The document came from Stepping Stones and were part of Bill’s materials relating to the writing of the book. Bill’s handwriting as to “Hanks ideas” was also verified by the aforementioned individuals. To infer that just because Bill annotated “Hanks ideas” AFTER the title page as anything other than as a means of identifying the document is also a stretch and to question the veracity of the document by words such as purported or putative implies fabrication. The FACT that the document was verified to be Hank’s handwriting by at least four individuals including the former archivist at GSO, the then current archivist at GSO, the then archivist at Stepping Stones and probably the only two other people in the world who had samples of Hank’s actual handwriting would probably stand up in court. The FACT that this document was part of Bill’s papers relating to the writing of the book and was housed in the archival repository at Bill and Lois’ home at Stepping Stones would verify its authenticity and also stand up in court. The FACT that if one looked at any author’s notes during the writing process of their books or papers one would usually not find these documents, ideas, scribbling, etc. dated or titled. I am also sure that if one looked at the handwritten story submissions also stored at Stepping Stones you would not find these dated or titled either. The actual titles for the stories in the book were not submitted by the authors of the stories but were decided upon AFTER the stories were submitted. I take umbrage to the inference of fabrication as well. I did not seek out this document. At the time it was discovered I was asked as one of probably only two or three people in the world familiar with Hank’s handwriting and in possession of actual letter written by Hank to verify the handwriting. As a matter of course I showed the document and samples of Hank’s handwriting to several other “experts” in AA documents to verify my findings. Mitchell K. --- johnlawlee wrote: > Although styled as "Hanks [sic] letter [sic]", the > twelve pages of > lined tablet appear to be handwritten notes from > two, or possibly > three, different persons. The pages are undated and > untitled. The > handwriting saying "Hanks ideas" is most likely Bill > Wilson's > inscription, but does anyone have facts to > authenticate that any of > the writing on those twelve pages is Hank > Parkhurst's? It is > significant that the notation "Hanks ideas" come > AFTER the purported > outline,not before; consequently, Hank's ideas would > be the material > coming after the putative outline. The first page > is not > an "outline" of the Big Book, as claimed by some, > but appears to be > an outline of a Business Plan to promote the Book. > In any case, few > if any of those ideas made their way into the Big > Book. It seems > quite a stretch to claim that the first page is an > outline of what > became the Big Book. While "Hanks ideas" didn't make > it into the > manuscript or the First Printing, they DID become > the incubator for > the Spiritual Experience Appendix in the Second > Printing [and > subsequent printings/editions]. > john lee --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4297. . . . . . . . . . . . Jung From: Fiona Dodd . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/30/2007 12:53:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Have just read Jungs Memories, Dreams and Reflections in which he speaks of treating an American patient for "alcoholic neurasthenia". According to the account by Jung, the man had an ordinay neurosis couple with a formidable mother complex. "He came from a rich and respected family, had a likeable wife and no cares-externally speaking. Only he drank too much." The mother owned a large company and the son occupied a leading position in it. After a brief treatment he stopped drinking but as soon a she wa sunder the mothers influence again, he took to the bottle. Jung approached the mother during her next visit to Switzerland and convinced her to let the son go from his position otherwise he would die from alcoholism. The patient went on to forge a successful career and overcame his alcoholism. Anyone any idea who this guy was? All of this occured around 1909. He makes no further mention in this book of treating other alcoholics. I find it interesting that by the time he came to treat Rowland H he was no longer treating alcoholism as being a manifestation of a neurosis. Fiona [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4298. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Jung From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/30/2007 1:30:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The following is extracted from a letter by Michael Bruwer, MD, in the magazine "Parabola", Vol XII, No 4, November 1987: 'Jung's position on alcoholism and the recovery from it did not spring solely from his own mind and his discoveries about the religious nature of the psyche. Jung trained at the Burgholzli Asylum in Zurich. Its former director August Forel turned it over to his student Eugen Bleuler, who was Jung's teacher. When Forel first took over running the asylum he was very humbled by his terrible results from treating alcoholics, which he did by trying to enjoin them to a pattern of moderate drinking (wine was still part of the regimen for staff and patients). Forel was then strongly influenced by his local shoemaker Jacob Bosshardt, a member of the local society of the Blue Cross, a Methodist abstainers' group. At Forel's invitation Bosshardt successfully treated a number of Forel's patients with abstinence. Forel was so impressed that he implemented the abstinence program coupled with aftercare for alcoholics at the Burgholzli. Forel became an abstainer himself. His staff followed his example, including Bleuler and the young Dr Jung. Jung maintained his abstinence until continued harrassment and belittlement for it by Sigmund Freud induced him to cease abstaining. Forel is respected in Switzerland where he appears on the thousand-franc note and on a stamp. It is to him and his shoemaker Jacob Bosshardt that we must look for a major root of AA." >From: "Fiona Dodd" >Reply-To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com >To: >Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Jung >Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 17:53:18 +0100 > >Have just read Jungs Memories, Dreams and Reflections in which he speaks of >treating an American patient for "alcoholic neurasthenia". >According to the account by Jung, the man had an ordinay neurosis couple >with a formidable mother complex. "He came from a rich and respected >family, >had a likeable wife and no cares-externally speaking. Only he drank too >much." The mother owned a large company and the son occupied a leading >position in it. After a brief treatment he stopped drinking but as soon a >she wa sunder the mothers influence again, he took to the bottle. Jung >approached the mother during her next visit to Switzerland and convinced >her >to let the son go from his position otherwise he would die from alcoholism. >The patient went on to forge a successful career and overcame his >alcoholism. > >Anyone any idea who this guy was? All of this occured around 1909. He makes >no further mention in this book of treating other alcoholics. I find it >interesting that by the time he came to treat Rowland H he was no longer >treating alcoholism as being a manifestation of a neurosis. > >Fiona > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > _________________________________________________________________ Solve the Conspiracy and win fantastic prizes. http://www.theconspiracygame.co.uk/ IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4299. . . . . . . . . . . . Significant May Dates in A.A. History From: chesbayman56 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/30/2007 9:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII May May 1919 - Bill returns home from service. (Dec 1934 to) May 1935 - Bill works with alcoholics, but fails to sober any of them. Lois reminds him HE is still sober. March-May 1938 - Bill begins writing the book Alcoholics Anonymous. May 1939 - Lois W Home Replacement Fund started at Alcoholic Foundation. May 1949 - The first AA meetings in Scotland were held in Glasgow and Edinburgh. May 1950 - Nell Wing became Bill W's secretary. May 1951 - Al-Anon is founded by Lois W. and Anne B. May 1, 1939 - Bank forecloses on 182 Clinton Street. (sometimes reported as April 26, 1939) May 1, 1940 - Rollie H, Cleveland Indians, first anonymity break on national level. May 1, 1941 - The first Wisconsin AA meeting was held at a hotel in Milwaukee. May 2, 1941 - Jacksonville, FL newspaper reported the start of an AA group in Jacksonville. May 3, 1941 - The first AA group in New Orleans, Louisiana, was formed. (sometimes dated as May 2, 1943) May 3, 1941 - Democrat Chronicle in Rochester, NY, reported first annual AA dinner at Seneca hotel with 60 attending. May 4, 1940 - Sunday Star reported founding of first AA group in Washington, DC. May 6, 1939 - Clarence S of Cleveland told Dr. Bob, his sponsor, he would not be back to Oxford Group meetings in Akron and would start an "AA" meeting in Cleveland. May 6, 1946 - The long form of the "Twelve Traditions" was published in the AA Grapevine. May 8, 1943 - Akron AA Group celebrates 8th anniversary with 500 present and sober. May 8, 1971 - Bill W buried in private ceremony, East Dorset, Vermont. May 10, 1939 - Clarence S announced to the Akron Oxford Group members that the Cleveland members were starting a meeting in Cleveland and calling it Alcoholics Anonymous. May 11, 1935 - Bill W made calls from the Mayflower Hotel and was referred to Dr. Bob. May 11, 1939 - first group to officially call itself Alcoholics Anonymous met at Abby G's house in Cleveland. (some sources say the 18th) May 12, 1935 @ 5 pm - Bill W met Doctor Bob at the home of Henrietta Seiberling. May 15, 1961 - Bill W's mother, Dr Emily Strobell, died. May 16, 1941 - Ruth Hock finds that Joe W. (or V.), credited with coming up with the name Alcoholics Anonymous, has a "wet brain". May 17, 1942 - The Dayton Journal Herald published pictures of AA members wearing masks to protect their anonymity. May 17, 1942 - New Haven, Conn paper has article on AA. Picture shows faces of members sitting in a circle. May 18, 1950 - Dr. Bob tells Bill "I reckon we ought to be buried like other folks" after hearing that local AA's want a huge memorial. May 19, 2000 - Dr. Paul O., Big Book story "Doctor, Alcoholic, Addict" (renamed "Acceptance Was the Answer" in the 4th edition) died at the age of 83. May 28, 1974 - The first World Service Meeting of AA outside North America was held in London. May 29, 1980 - "Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers" was published. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4300. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Jung From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/30/2007 6:36:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Fiona Dodd" wrote: > > Have just read Jungs Memories, Dreams and Reflections in which he speaks of > treating an American patient for "alcoholic neurasthenia". It was Medill McCormick. There is a connection, although distant, with Rowland Hazard. Two of Rowland's college friends were Robert McCormick, Medill's younger brother, and George Porter, Medill's close friend. During the time Rowland's cousin Leonard was in the process of persuading him to go to Zurich, Leonard happened to run into George Porter-- apparently it was truly a coincidence. Porter was devoted to Jung, so Leonard asked him to talk to Rowland. Medill did give up alcohol, although not necessarily immediately after his analysis. He left the family business (The Chicago Tribune) and entered politics, rising to United States Senator from Illinois. The account Jung gives of how he handled Medill's mother may not be precisely correct, as it conflicts with some other information available about the situation. Medill McCormick died of a barbiturate overdose, apparently intentional, in February 1925. George Porter died exactly two years later, a suicide by gunshot. Rowland Hazard lost touch with Robert McCormick (later Tribune editor, not very friendly guy) some time after 1910. I'm not sure if we really know what Jung's therapeutic approach was to Rowland, or how much it had in common with his approach to Medill. Eighteen years is a long time, but there was nevertheless a certain continuity to Jung's thought. Cora IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4301. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: Big Book "Outline" From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/30/2007 7:11:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII John Lee, The "alleged" samples of Hank's handwriting are in the form of letters to Clarence Snyder from Hank Parkhurst. Clarence and Hank were brother's-in-law and Clarence at one time worked for Hank as a salesperson. These "alleged" letters were in their original envelopes as well for the most part. I cannot publish these "alleged" samples on the net because like most of the collection I used for research, they are at Brown University for preservation and availability for future researchers. Some of the reasons the collection went to Brown was that when I first started my research I had excellent access to the archives at GSO. Nell allowed me to view, take notes and study most of the holdings at GSO. Frank M. also allowed me pretty much unfettered access until the Trustees Archives Committee tied his hands. When I made written request to view materials relating to a particular time frame or subject matter the Archives Committee told Frank that I had to be specific as to exactly what I was looking for. I asked Frank for a list of holdings so that I could comply with their requirement. Frank told me that the committee would not release such a list and that in fact, I had to somehow know exactly what I was looking for so that I could request viewing it.As I had no idea what their holdings consisted of I could make no such request. Frank apologized and said that his hands were tied and he couldn't help me. I had read in some of Clarence's correspondence that he gave several boxes of archival materials to the AA club in Midland Texas. I found out who to contact in Midland and called requesting information as to what they had. I was told that Frank M. had come to Midland and convinced them that he should take their holdings back to NY and have them housed at the GSO Archives. He promised that they would receive copies of the materials in exchange. My contact stated he was awaiting the copies and he would be happy to share them with me. I waited and when I contacte the Midland group they told me that all they had received from Frank at GSO were several typed pages in an inventory stating what the piece of documentation was, the box and file number GSO held them in. They could not help me with copies of the material they no longer had. I asked for photocopies of the inventory and when I received them I wrote to GSO again and this time requested specific documents including their own box number and file names. Frank called me up soon after this request stating that the Archives Committee demanded where I got this information. I told him that I was aware of what had transpired in Midland and he again apologized and said that his hands were tied. I eventually got access to the materials. I can also remember bringing several dozen binders of documents to the GSO archives and Frank invited Nell to look at these as well. We spent an entire day looking at the collection and Frank constantly asked if he could borrow the documents, keep the documents or that I could donate the documents to GSO. He took a post-it pad and started placing these little yellow sticky things on dozens of mylar covers to the documents. I asked him what these were for and he said that the documents he noted were the ones he wanted. It was my turn to apologize and stated that my hands were tied. During my research I spoke with several long-term members who had donated materials to the archives at GSO. They wrote letters granting me access to these materials they donated. When I asked Frank and the Archives Committee to look at these documents they told me that access to them was denied despite these members who had donated them agreeing for me to look. Some of these long-term members even agreed to come to the archives in NY to back up their request. Some had even said that if I could not look at the documents they were going to take them back. The Archives Committee through Frank told us that the materials were now the property of GSO and they would determine who would look at them and when and refused to return them to the members who had donated them. I had also asked for several documents I already had copies of and was told that these documents didn't exist. I brought the documents to Frank and showed them to him and he wanted to make copies to show the committee. I smiled and apologized and said I couldn't make copies because my hands were tied. I believe that according to GSO these documents still do not exist. Pretty much the only documents I still hold are several letters from Henrietta Seiberling to Clarence and a few dozen pages of color copies from original source documents relating to the Orthodox Group, The movement to decentralize the offices in NY and return control of AA back to the membership and the groups, the incorporation papers, by-laws and other materials relating to the AA Grapevine. This also includes the statements of stck transfers from the original owners of the stock to the corporation. Much of this material as they relate to my book or what I deem important to the book will be published in the second edition of said book. I have not decided what to do with these materials at this time after the re-write is published. These "alleged" original documents I believe are important and should be published so that everyone should have access to them. As far as access.... Anyone who ever asked to look at my collection was granted full access. Many members of AAHL were given full and unfettered access in an effort to do their own research. I did not nor do I believe that anything relating to the history of AA should be locked up and hidden from the Fellowship. I believe in preserving our history FOR the Fellowship and not hiding it FROM the Fellowship. I do not believe our archivists and historians should be security guards but rather preservers of our history and people relating the story as it was practicing rigorous honesty. Repositories should not be vaults. Just my "alleged" opinion > Mitchell, > I never claimed that the twelve page document was > false or forged. The terms "putative" and > "purported" refer to your conclusion that the first > page was an "outline" of the Big Book. It was no > such thing. Please review your own How It Worked > book where you make that claim repeatedly on pages > 96, 98 and 102.[eg, "Hank wrote, in his outline for > the book, p. 102"]. > "Hanks ideas" did not make it into the Big Book. > There is no evidence, direct or circumstantial, that > the purported outline was even circulated to anyone > other than Bill or Hank, let alone becoming the > "guidelines for the writing efforts of AA's > founders,who supplied their manuscripts (sic)", as > claimed in your book at page 98. The ideas in those > twelve pages did not make it into the big book, at > least until the 1941 Second Printing when Hank's > ideas about spiritual experience were included in > the Spiritual Experience Appendix. It would be > helpful if you posted the alleged samples of Hank's > writings on the Internet, so impartial parties could > compare those writings with the purported "outline". > > love+service, > john lee > vist@yahoo.com> wrote: IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4302. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Significant May Dates in A.A. History From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/1/2007 6:40:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII > May 11, 1939 - first group to officially call itself > Alcoholics Anonymous met at Abby G's house in Cleveland. (some sources say the 18th) Not sure which sources say the 18th but according to the history of the Cleveland Groups as compiled by Norm E., the Recording Statistician of the Cleveland Central Office the date remains the 11th. What Norm did as requested by the Central Committee was to develop a form for each group to fill out. This form included the original name of the group, the original address, the founding members of the group, the founding date of the group, which group the new group formed out of and which members left the original group to form the new group. It also listed the number of members at the first meeting and number of members at certain intervals.There were a few other demographic questions to fill in and room for comments. The group Sec'y. filled out the form and in the case of the G. Group, Abby G. filled out the form and signed it. The forms were sent out on June 18, 1942 and the G. Group form was dated June 24, 1942. It stated that "On 5/10/39, nine members left the Akron meeting of the Oxford Group to form the G. group. The location of the group was 2345 Stillman Road, Cleeland Heights, Cleveland, Ohio. The sponsors of the group were: Clarence Snyder, Al G, Geo. J McD., John D., Dr. Harry N., Lee L., Vaughn P., Chas. J., and Lloyd T. The first secretary of the group was Clarence Snyder. The form also stated that the first meeting of the G. group was May 11th. These forms were filled out for each of the groups in Cleveland formed up to June 1942. --- chesbayman56 wrote: > May > May 1919 - Bill returns home from service. > (Dec 1934 to) May 1935 - Bill works with alcoholics, > but fails to > sober any of them. Lois reminds him HE is still > sober. > March-May 1938 - Bill begins writing the book > Alcoholics Anonymous. > May 1939 - Lois W Home Replacement Fund started at > Alcoholic > Foundation. > May 1949 - The first AA meetings in Scotland were > held in Glasgow and > Edinburgh. > May 1950 - Nell Wing became Bill W's secretary. > May 1951 - Al-Anon is founded by Lois W. and Anne B. > May 1, 1939 - Bank forecloses on 182 Clinton Street. > (sometimes > reported as April 26, 1939) > May 1, 1940 - Rollie H, Cleveland Indians, first > anonymity break on > national level. > May 1, 1941 - The first Wisconsin AA meeting was > held at a hotel in > Milwaukee. > May 2, 1941 - Jacksonville, FL newspaper reported > the start of an AA > group in Jacksonville. > May 3, 1941 - The first AA group in New Orleans, > Louisiana, was > formed. (sometimes dated as May 2, 1943) > May 3, 1941 - Democrat Chronicle in Rochester, NY, > reported first > annual AA dinner at Seneca hotel with 60 attending. > May 4, 1940 - Sunday Star reported founding of first > AA group in > Washington, DC. > May 6, 1939 - Clarence S of Cleveland told Dr. Bob, > his sponsor, he > would not be back to Oxford Group meetings in Akron > and would start > an "AA" meeting in Cleveland. > May 6, 1946 - The long form of the "Twelve > Traditions" was published > in the AA Grapevine. > May 8, 1943 - Akron AA Group celebrates 8th > anniversary with 500 > present and sober. > May 8, 1971 - Bill W buried in private ceremony, > East Dorset, Vermont. > May 10, 1939 - Clarence S announced to the Akron > Oxford Group members > that the Cleveland members were starting a meeting > in Cleveland and > calling it Alcoholics Anonymous. > May 11, 1935 - Bill W made calls from the Mayflower > Hotel and was > referred to Dr. Bob. > May 11, 1939 - first group to officially call itself > Alcoholics > Anonymous met at Abby G's house in Cleveland. (some > sources say the > 18th) > May 12, 1935 @ 5 pm - Bill W met Doctor Bob at the > home of Henrietta > Seiberling. > May 15, 1961 - Bill W's mother, Dr Emily Strobell, > died. > May 16, 1941 - Ruth Hock finds that Joe W. (or V.), > credited with > coming up with the name Alcoholics Anonymous, has a > "wet brain". > May 17, 1942 - The Dayton Journal Herald published > pictures of AA > members wearing masks to protect their anonymity. > May 17, 1942 - New Haven, Conn paper has article on > AA. Picture shows > faces of members sitting in a circle. > May 18, 1950 - Dr. Bob tells Bill "I reckon we ought > to be buried > like other folks" after hearing that local AA's want > a huge memorial. > May 19, 2000 - Dr. Paul O., Big Book story "Doctor, > Alcoholic, > Addict" (renamed "Acceptance Was the Answer" in the > 4th edition) died > at the age of 83. > May 28, 1974 - The first World Service Meeting of AA > outside North > America was held in London. > May 29, 1980 - "Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers" was > published. > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4303. . . . . . . . . . . . Page 43 of the Big Book From: Silkworthdotnet . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/2/2007 12:14:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I received the following from Shannon, editor of the Anonymous Press web site. Can someone here shed a little more light on the correct spelling of Dr. Percy Poliak? Dr. Percy Polick? On page 43 of the Big Book is the reference: Many doctors and psychiatrists agree with our conclusions. One of these men, staff member of a world-renowned hospital... On your site at http://silkworth.net/aahistory_names/namesp.html The Dr.'s name is shown as: "Percy Poliak" But.. I notice that at http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/BBWhoWhat.htm it appears as Dr. Percy Polick Would you happen to know with certainty the proper spelling of this doctor's name? ================== I have his name spelled both ways in two places on silkworth.net and would love to have the correct spelling as well. Yours in service, Jim M, silkworth.net IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4304. . . . . . . . . . . . Jung''s patient Medill McCormick From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/2/2007 10:09:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I believe this is Joseph Medill McCormick (1877-1925), first cousin of Eleanor Medill (Cissy) Patterson (1884-1948), whose daughter was for some years the longest sober woman in AA. Her story is in the Third Edition and therefore in EXPERIENCE, STRENGTH, AND HOPE. Her diary (and some fragments of conversation?) were used, I believe, by the Rev. Sally Brown in her book on Marty M. My point is that there seems to have been alcoholism in the Medill family and from there in the McCormick and Patterson families -- and that one member at least found sobriety in AA, even if one didn't find it with Dr. Jung. - - - - Message 4297 from "Fiona Dodd" (fionadodd at eircom.net) Have just read Jungs Memories, Dreams and Reflections in which he speaks of treating an American patient for "alcoholic neurasthenia". According to the account by Jung, the man had an ordinay neurosis coupled with a formidable mother complex. "He came from a rich and respected family, had a likeable wife and no cares -- externally speaking. Only he drank too much." The mother owned a large company and the son occupied a leading position in it. After a brief treatment he stopped drinking but as soon a she was under the mother's influence again, he took to the bottle. Jung approached the mother during her next visit to Switzerland and convinced her to let the son go from his position otherwise he would die from alcoholism. The patient went on to forge a successful career and overcame his alcoholism. Anyone any idea who this guy was? All of this occured around 1909. He makes no further mention in this book of treating other alcoholics. I find it interesting that by the time he came to treat Rowland H he was no longer treating alcoholism as being a manifestation of a neurosis. Fiona - - - - Message 4300 from "corafinch" (corafinch at yahoo.com) It was Medill McCormick. There is a connection, although distant, with Rowland Hazard. Two of Rowland's college friends were Robert McCormick, Medill's younger brother, and George Porter, Medill's close friend. During the time Rowland's cousin Leonard was in the process of persuading him to go to Zurich, Leonard happened to run into George Porter -- apparently it was truly a coincidence. Porter was devoted to Jung, so Leonard asked him to talk to Rowland. Medill did give up alcohol, although not necessarily immediately after his analysis. He left the family business (The Chicago Tribune) and entered politics, rising to United States Senator from Illinois. The account Jung gives of how he handled Medill's mother may not be precisely correct, as it conflicts with some other information available about the situation. Medill McCormick died of a barbiturate overdose, apparently intentional, in February 1925. George Porter died exactly two years later, a suicide by gunshot. Rowland Hazard lost touch with Robert McCormick (later Tribune editor, not very friendly guy) some time after 1910. I'm not sure if we really know what Jung's therapeutic approach was to Rowland, or how much it had in common with his approach to Medill. Eighteen years is a long time, but there was nevertheless a certain continuity to Jung's thought. Cora IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4305. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Page 43 of Big Book: Dr. Poliak From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/2/2007 10:33:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dr. Percy Perry Poliak was born to Israel and Pauline Qviat Poliak in Las Animas CO June 30 1905 (sometimes given as 1906), married Mary Patricia Conley in California April 7 1972 and died there (in San Francisco) on February 10 1982. The name is correctly POLIAK. He practiced both at Bellevue and in SF. He was in NYC in 1937 I believe and in SF by 1940. _________________________________ --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Silkworthdotnet" wrote: > > I received the following from Shannon, editor of the Anonymous Press web site. Can someone here shed a little more light on the correct spelling of Dr. Percy Poliak? Dr. Percy Polick? > > > On page 43 of the Big Book is the reference: > Many doctors and psychiatrists agree with our conclusions. One of > these men, staff member of a world-renowned hospital... > > On your site at > http://silkworth.net/aahistory_names/namesp.html > > The Dr.'s name is shown as: "Percy Poliak" > > But.. I notice that at > http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/BBWhoWhat.htm > it appears as Dr. Percy Polick > > Would you happen to know with certainty the proper spelling of this doctor's name? > > ================== > > I have his name spelled both ways in two places on silkworth.net and would love to have the correct spelling as well. > > Yours in service, > Jim M, > silkworth.net > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4306. . . . . . . . . . . . Death of Charlie M., Tennessee archivist From: wiknwillow@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/29/2007 11:40:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Charles Miner passed away after coming home from a District Meeting, he had a massive heart attack, he had never been diagnosed with heart trouble, he was diabetic. He passed away Sunday April 22, 2007. His funeral was held in 3 places in the state, one in Jamestown, where his mother and sister and where he himself resided. Another in Chattanooga where his sons and a daughter lived, and one in Memphis where he lived for quite some time. I feel that the people in the Archives that knew Charlie should know that he has passed. Thank you so much, Love and .... Blessings, Kathy Kelly-Hund DCM District 6, Area 64, Tennessee - - - - The Area 64 Tennessee Archives: http://www.area64tnarchives.org/ Photos of the 6th National Archives Workshop (Louisville, Kentucky / Clarksville, Indiana) which the Tennessee Archives Committee helped plan. http://area64tnarchives.org/6tharchivesworkshop.htm IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4307. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Jung''s patient Medill McCormick and Felicia Magruder From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/2/2007 3:18:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I interviewed Felicia Magruder (Cissy Patterson's daughter) back in 1981, when I was working on "Pass It On." She was a close friend of Marty Mann and also one of the early founders of The Grapevine. She suffered considerably from depression but really hung in there as a solid, steady AA member. Mel Barger Mel ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Mel Barger melb@accesstoledo.com (melb at accesstoledo.com) ----- Original Message ----- From: jlobdell54 To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 10:09 AM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Jung's patient Medill McCormick I believe this is Joseph Medill McCormick (1877-1925), first cousin of Eleanor Medill (Cissy) Patterson (1884-1948), whose daughter was for some years the longest sober woman in AA. Her story is in the Third Edition and therefore in EXPERIENCE, STRENGTH, AND HOPE. Her diary (and some fragments of conversation?) were used, I believe, by the Rev. Sally Brown in her book on Marty M. My point is that there seems to have been alcoholism in the Medill family and from there in the McCormick and Patterson families -- and that one member at least found sobriety in AA, even if one didn't find it with Dr. Jung. - - - - Message 4297 from "Fiona Dodd" (fionadodd at eircom.net) Have just read Jungs Memories, Dreams and Reflections in which he speaks of treating an American patient for "alcoholic neurasthenia". According to the account by Jung, the man had an ordinay neurosis coupled with a formidable mother complex. "He came from a rich and respected family, had a likeable wife and no cares -- externally speaking. Only he drank too much." The mother owned a large company and the son occupied a leading position in it. After a brief treatment he stopped drinking but as soon a she was under the mother's influence again, he took to the bottle. Jung approached the mother during her next visit to Switzerland and convinced her to let the son go from his position otherwise he would die from alcoholism. The patient went on to forge a successful career and overcame his alcoholism. Anyone any idea who this guy was? All of this occured around 1909. He makes no further mention in this book of treating other alcoholics. I find it interesting that by the time he came to treat Rowland H he was no longer treating alcoholism as being a manifestation of a neurosis. Fiona - - - - Message 4300 from "corafinch" (corafinch at yahoo.com) It was Medill McCormick. There is a connection, although distant, with Rowland Hazard. Two of Rowland's college friends were Robert McCormick, Medill's younger brother, and George Porter, Medill's close friend. During the time Rowland's cousin Leonard was in the process of persuading him to go to Zurich, Leonard happened to run into George Porter -- apparently it was truly a coincidence. Porter was devoted to Jung, so Leonard asked him to talk to Rowland. Medill did give up alcohol, although not necessarily immediately after his analysis. He left the family business (The Chicago Tribune) and entered politics, rising to United States Senator from Illinois. The account Jung gives of how he handled Medill's mother may not be precisely correct, as it conflicts with some other information available about the situation. Medill McCormick died of a barbiturate overdose, apparently intentional, in February 1925. George Porter died exactly two years later, a suicide by gunshot. Rowland Hazard lost touch with Robert McCormick (later Tribune editor, not very friendly guy) some time after 1910. I'm not sure if we really know what Jung's therapeutic approach was to Rowland, or how much it had in common with his approach to Medill. Eighteen years is a long time, but there was nevertheless a certain continuity to Jung's thought. Cora [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4308. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Jung''s patient Medill McCormick From: Sally Brown . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/2/2007 6:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Thank you, Jared, for enlarging a little on Medill McCormick. And thank AAHistoryLovers for all their detective work. Dave and I did not know that Medill was an alcoholic. This is part of the fun of writing a biographical history as Dave and I did with Marty Mann - subsequent researchers interested in other aspects of the story will enhance and enlarge it. To keep the record clear, I am the coauthor with my husband, David R. Brown, of Marty's biography. It's thanks to him that so much research went into the book. He carried by far the bulk of that load. I just wrote what he was finding. Unfortunately, both Ernie Kurtz and Bill White strongly seconded his opinion, so I had to buckle down and stop looking for the easier, softer way. Now I'm very glad I did. Numbers of PhD students and others have been able to build on our material and resources. Here's a little cautionary footnote for researchers. Dave and I were in Chicago, whence Marty came, interviewing various folks. And because Dave is addicted to libraries, we dropped in at Chicago's main library to see what we could find. Lo and behold, there was a whole room dedicated to the McCormicks! We knew of Felicia Gizycka's importance in Marty and Priscilla's life, so we solicited the help of the room's curator in finding out more about her. He directed us to several books. In one of them was a family tree. Sure enough, there was Felicia on the proper branch. But to our huge disappointment, she was listed as having died in 1985. That was the most recent reference to her, so we sadly crossed Felicia off our list. One more person we were too late for. Somewhere along the way, we learned that Felicia's daughter, Ellen, had married into a prominent Washington DC legal family, the Arnolds. It occurred to us that perhaps, if we could locate her, Ellen could tell us something about Marty or at least about Felicia. Dave and I had lived in the Washington area for a couple of years in the late 1970s and I vaguely remembered the name Arnold as a firm that was sometimes in the news. I'm a lazy researcher, but I'm afflicted with an incurable curiosity about people. So on a whim I dialed DC Informa- tion, and asked hesitantly if there was a legal firm listed with the name Arnold in it. "Oh, yes," she immediately replied, "it's Arnold and Porter. Here's the number." Next step: call, get the switchboard, be connected to Arnold's office. His executive assistant answers, and immediately responds with great courtesy and enthusiasm to my inquiry about Ellen Arnold. However, she doesn't have a contact number or address for Ellen. But she's delighted to pass on the names, phone n umbers, and addresses of each of Ellen's sons in Wyoming. I'm bowled over. Hoping one of the sons could tell us about their grandmother Felicia, or how to reach their mother Ellen, I picked one at random and phoned him, Joe Arnold in Laramie. What a gift! I told him I was very sorry I was too late to interview his grandmother. He replied, "Would you like to speak with her?" !!!!!!!! When I finally picked myself up off the floor, he told me Felicia was actually alive and living in a retirement home in Laramie. Her grandsons adored her, and when she became too frail to live alone in Connecticut, they had moved her to Wyoming. She was now very frail, and noticeably failing. If I wanted to see her, I should probably come right away, and even then he couldn't promise she'd be at all responsive to anyone outside the immediate family. I was on a plane the next morning. And that's how we found out about Felicia's remarkable journals and were given unlimited access to them. Joe was right about Felicia's inability to communicate, too. A few months later she died. It was an invaluable lesson in not believing everything you read, and why Dave went to such great lengths to check and double-check everything we could. This double-checking, and insistence on accuracy, is one of AAHistoryLovers most wonderful contributions to our history. Thank God for Nancy Olson, who got this project going, and for all of you who continue her vision. Shalom - Sally Rev Sally Brown Board Certified Clinical Chaplain United Church of Christ coauthor with David R. Brown: A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann The First Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous 1470 Sand Hill Road, 309 www.sallyanddavidbrown.com Palo Alto, CA 94304 Phone/Fax: 650 325 5258 Email: rev.sally@att.net (rev.sally at att.net) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4309. . . . . . . . . . . . "group conscience" From: Ernest Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/3/2007 5:12:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The Oxford Group "checked guidance." This seems to be the proximate source for the AA concept of "group conscience"? Might anyone know the exact, most proximate source of AA usage of the term, "group conscience"? ernie kurtz IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4310. . . . . . . . . . . . Mc Cormick From: Fiona Dodd . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/6/2007 3:48:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In The Rev Sally Brown's autobiography of Marty Mann, it's mentioned that there was an Austin Mc Cormick of the Osborne Association involved in the planning group Marty estab- lished prior to setting up the National Council on Alcoholism. Is or rather was he one of the Medill/Mc Cormick/Patterson clan? Fiona IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4311. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "group conscience" From: Tom White . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/6/2007 4:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Ernie: Just a wild, off-the-top guess, but I have tended to think the "most proximate" cause of the group conscience might have been the Vermont Town Meeting. I grew up in N.E., but with a Catholic background. However, everybody in my time in NE respected the idea that a "town meeting" would be careful not to shove something down anybody's throat just because a plurality of votes could be gotten for it. There had to be an harmonious consensus, after discussion, or the thing would be tabled until another day. V. best, Tom White - - - - On May 3, 2007, at 4:12 PM, Ernest Kurtz wrote: > The Oxford Group "checked guidance." This > seems to be the proximate source for the AA > concept of "group conscience"? > > Might anyone know the exact, most proximate > source of AA usage of the term, "group > conscience"? > > ernie kurtz > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4312. . . . . . . . . . . . Photographs of Richard Peabody or Courtenay Baylor? From: Joseph Trevaskis . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/9/2007 7:42:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello all, I have been doing research with some others on obtaining photographs of people who were involved in pre-AA. Does anyone have a copy of a photo of Richard Peabody, Courtenay Baylor or anyone related? How can people obtain copies? Thanks ever, In Love and service, Joe T IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4313. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Mc Cormick From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/7/2007 5:49:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Fiona, I met Austin McCormick in 1963-1964 when both of us attended the Grapevine editorial board meetings in New York. He was widely respected for his work in prison reform. I recall, for example, that he was called in as a consultant when inmates at Jackson Prison (in southern Michigan) rioted in 1952. (But Dr. Leonard Strong, Bill W.'s brother-in-law, thought Austin was too soft on inmates and wanted to coddle them!) I doubt that Austin was related to the folks you mentioned. It does appear that Ireland did a good job of exporting many of its McCormicks to the U.S.; here in Toledo, for example, we have more than sixty listed. Then there are also MacCormacks and McCormacks, though some of these may be Scottish. There was also a great Irish tenor named John McCormack, but I'm sorry to say that he succumbed to our affliction. Mel Barger IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4314. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "group conscience" From: John Lee . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/7/2007 3:02:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From John Lee, Arthur Sheehan, George Cleveland, and Glenn Chesnut From: John Lee (johnlawlee at yahoo.com) I agree with Tom White that the likely genesis of "group conscience" is the New England Town meetings of the co-founders' childhoods. We should remember that Bob and Bill grew up with the New England Primer, in an era where every New England schoolchild memorized the Primer. Bill Wilson wrote often about the "genuine democracy" of the Fellowship, which was certainly displayed in the town meetings of Bill's Vermont village upbringing. The Farmers' Almanac was another likely source of many ideas perpetuated by Bill Wilson, such as the slogans. I believe that the Primer was the inspiration for the "three pertinent ideas" found on page 60 of the BIg Book. The New England Primer speaks of the "Three Choice Sentences". While worded quite differently than the Three Pertinent Ideas, the Choice Sentences are similar in compactness and style. They talk about "praying", human "weakness", and "think[ing] before God." I don't see any connection between the Oxford Group practice of "group guidance" and "group conscience". Bill and Lois Wilson disliked the Oxford Group practice of group guidance. Their detestation of that practice is a major reason for their leaving the Oxford Group, as Ernie Kurtz himself has pointed out in his splendid collection of essays. The Oxford Group was a "First Century Christian Fellowship" which followed the Acts of Apostles and Epistle to St. James , books of the New Testament which called for public confession. AA jettisoned the public confession of the First Century Christians, and substituted the private confession of Fifth Century Christians, which called for private confession with a soul-friend ["anamchara"]. In a similar vein, AA ditched the "absolute honesty" embraced by the Oxford Group, and adopted the "rigorous honesty" of practicing the rigors of the Twelve Steps. john lee where the Allegheny meets the Monongahela, to form the Ohio - - - - From: "Arthur S" (ArtSheehan at msn.com) Greetings fellows In AA Comes of Age (pg 102) the earliest personal experience that influenced the Traditions occurred when Bill W was 2 years sober. In December 1936, Charles B Towns offered Bill a lucrative job at his hospital as a lay alcoholism therapist. After years of a hand to mouth existence Bill wanted the job very much. The question was put to the NY group meeting in Bill’s home and they rejected it. Bill complied with their decision and later wrote “3 blows, well and truly struck, had fallen on the anvil of experience … The common welfare must come first … AA cannot have a class of professional therapists … and God, speaking in the group conscience, is to be our final authority. Clearly implied in these 3 embryo principles of tradition was a 4th: Our leaders are but trusted servants; they do not govern.” Cheers Arthur - - - - From: george cleveland (pauguspass at yahoo.com) Hmmm. Got to disagree with the Town Meeting analogy. I ran Town Meetings in my New Hampshire town for 28 years--more than half my life--and more often than not, there was never consensus on thorny issues. However, I am also a Quaker and Quaker business practice is all about consensus. You can find out more on the web and I believe it was discussed in this group a while back. Looking forward to more revelations. George Cleveland - - - - From: glennccc@sbcglobal.net (glennccc at sbcglobal.net) It was not just Quaker business meetings which operated this way. Most of the radical wing of the Protestant Reformation believed that church business meetings should engage in quiet discussion until a consensus was reached, and avoid the kind of diviseness produced by 51% to 49% votes. This meant not just Quakers, but also Mennonites, Evangelical and United Brethren, Moravians, and so on. A large number of American Protestant groups of that time were affected to some degree by radical reformation principles. See for example some of Franklin H. Littell's books on the Mennonites and on the radical reformation in general ("The Anabaptist View of the Church," etc.). People in New England during the formative period had modeled the way they ran their town meetings (and the rules by which they governed many other parts of their lives) on principles and practices they had learned in church. Also, the Oxford Group conducted group guidance sessions, where everyone sat around prayerfully and jotted down their thoughts in notebooks, and then shared their jottings afterwards. See A. J. Russell and others for examples. If they were not in agreement, they would pray again, and make more jottings in their notebooks. The goal was always to come out with a consensus that everyone could agree was wise divine guidance. What Bill Wilson introduced was a little different. But fundamentally, it was not so much a new practice, as a new nomenclature. Instead of referring to God, he referred to the inner human conscience. Instead of talking about receiving divine guidance or about praying for the inspiration of the Holy Spirit or the illumination of the Inner Light, he described the practice as seeking a "group conscience" where all the members looked deeply within their own hearts and souls, and their own inner knowledge of right and wrong. In my understanding, this change in terminology is what Ernest Kurtz was actually asking about. And I can think of no examples, myself, of people using the phrase "group conscience" in that kind of sense prior to Bill W's usage of the term. It may have been Wilson's own coinage: a new term for describing an old practice. Glenn C. - - - - Original message from: Ernest Kurtz wrote: The Oxford Group "checked guidance." This seems to be the proximate source for the AA concept of "group conscience"? Might anyone know the exact, most proximate source of AA usage of the term, "group conscience"? ernie kurtz IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4315. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "group conscience" From: Sally Brown . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/9/2007 8:09:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Sally Brown and John Lee. - - - - From: "Sally Brown" (rev.sally at worldnet.att.net) I, too, agree that the New England town meeting was probably the strongest influence on Bill's and Bob's adoption of the group conscience for AA. Dave and I were lucky to live in a small New England town (Lincoln, MA, outside Boston) for many years, and participate in loads of wonderful town meetings in which the group conscience definitely prevailed even though the majority vote legally won. I'd like to suggest another possible influence, albeit minor, that just occurred to me, for which we have no documentation whatsoever. The League of Women Voters. Bill's mother, that feisty independent lady, might have joined after the League's formation in 1920. Maybe someone in AA knows. Finally, what about the Congregational Church? That was part of Bill's grandfather Wilson's family life, and that denomination's way of self-governing was the forerunner and model for the subsequent town meeting form of local governments. Shalom - Sally www.sallyanddavidbrown.com 1470 Sand Hill Road, 309 Palo Alto, CA 94304 Phone/Fax: 650 325 5258 Email: rev.sally@att.net - - - - From: John Lee (johnlawlee at yahoo.com) I agree that "group conscience" was likely Bill Wilson's [original] coinage of a practice followed in Anabaptist sects. The Anabaptists have the "rule of sitting down" where they meet and try to achieve a consensus expressing the Divine Will. I hesitated to post that speculation last week because I can't find any evidence that Bill Wilson was exposed to Quaker or Anabaptist practices. Bill was not much of a reader or scholar, but he had a good ear. He and Lois attended Bible studies given by Sam Shoemaker and Sam's assistants in the mid-1930s. Sam was technically Episcopalian, but he was theologically close to the Methodist Episcopal viewpoints of the Wesley brothers["act as if" was a major emphasis of John Wesley]. Sam was out of step with the direction of the Episcopal Church of his time, which reveled in social action and liturgy. Although a prominent scholar, author, preacher and missionary, Doctor Shoemaker was never elevated to bishop. My point is that the theology disseminated by Sam Shoemaker would not have included ideas consistent with a "group conscience". I used to attend Pittsburgh Experiment meetings, which were the version of Oxford Group brought to Pittsburgh by Shoemaker in the 1950s when Sam became Rector of Calvary Church of Pittsburgh. I just don't see any overlap between group guidance and group guidance. The group guidance of the Oxford Group was designed to help one of the members decide a course of action, it was never used to decide what the group itself was going to do. The references to the Bill Wilson's refusal of the Towns Hospital job were written in the mid-1940s; consequently, Bill's invention of the label "group conscience" would have necessarily occurred sometime prior to 1946. Bill was writing in 1946 about a job refusal that occurred in December 1936. His writings on the idea of a group conscience were not contemporaneous with the incident that supposedly provoked the idea. The Towns Hospital incident occurred ten years prior to its recordation. Much of the Twelve Traditions developed from Bill Wilson's correspondence with the fledgling groups. Perhaps there is some correspondence in GSO Archives which would pinpoint Bill's first use of the words "group conscience". Bill was fascinated with the number 12. He basically took seven or eight traditions and stretched them into twelve. He liked the number 12. John Lee Pittsburgh IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4316. . . . . . . . . . . . Karen Horney From: gcb900 . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/17/2007 5:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII It seems I read of Bill W being interested in Karen Horney, and wonder if any of the History lovers could add any thing to his thoughts on her, or any information at all. __________________________ From the moderator: Karen Horney (1885-1952) was a major Neo- Freudian psychoanalyst. In 1937 she published the book "The Neurotic Personality of Our Time," which had wide popular readership. There was a strong influence of the Neo-Freudians on early AA, but it has seemed from my own reading that the Neo-Freudian psychiatrist Alfred Adler was more important than Karen Horney. Ernest M. Ligon's book Psychology of Christian Personality was on the old Akron recommended reading list for beginners in AA, and used Neo-Freudian psychology to interpret the Sermon on the Mount in very interesting fashion. Does anyone in the group know more about this? Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4318. . . . . . . . . . . . History and Archives Gathering June 23, 2007 Lebanon PA From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/18/2007 6:32:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The Fourth History and Archives Gathering in Central Pennsylvania will be held Saturday June 23, 2007 at St Cecilia's Social Hall, 750 State Drive, Lebanon, Pennsylvania, same location as last year. Besides the kind of presentations we've had in 2003, 2004, and 2006, we're hoping to have a session at the beginning on the Messengers to Ebby (Rowland, Shep, Cebra). Inquiries can be directed to histandarch@comcast.net -- Thanks. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4319. . . . . . . . . . . . Victorious Living From: gbaa487 . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/20/2007 12:11:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I was reading "A Feminine Victory" and saw where she said that she was reading the Bible and "Victorious Living." Was this one of the books that were suggested reading in early AA? ____________________________ From the moderator: "A Feminine Victory" in the 1st edition (page 217) was written by Florence Rankin. She first started in AA in March 1937. The passage you are talking about reads: "Things went very well for quite a while, then came a dull rainy day. I was alone. The weather and my self-pity began to cook up a nice dish of the blues for me. There was liquor in the house and I found myself suggesting to myself 'Just one drink will make me feel so much more cheerful.' Well, I got the Bible and 'Victorious Living' and sitting down in full view of the bottle of whiskey, I commenced to read. I also prayed .... and in half an hour I got up and was absolutely free of the urge for a drink." This was probably the well known book by E. Stanley Jones, "Victorious Living" (1936). E. Stanley Jones (1884-1973) was a Methodist missionary and author, who was very close with Mahatma Gandhi. He also wrote "The Christ of the Indian Road" (1925) and "Abundant Living" (1942). -- Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4320. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr. Silkworth Birthday Celebration, W. Long Branch NJ, 7/21/07 From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/20/2007 7:44:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Area 44 History and Archives Committee cordially invites you to the Fourth Annual Dr. Silkworth Birthday Celebration! Saturday, July 21, 2007 at 3:30PM (rain date July 28, 2007) At his gravesite in Glenwood Cemetery, Route 71 (Monmouth Rd.), West Long Branch, New Jersey. Speakers: Barbara Silkworth (a family member) and Ed R. (nephew of Dr. Silkworth’s nurse Teddy) Dr. William Duncan Silkworth is the author of the two letters in “The Doctor’s Opinion” in the Big Book “Alcoholics Anonymous” and is known as a friend to millions of alcoholics worldwide. He detoxed Bill Wilson (AA’s co-founder) in N.Y.C. after Bill finally got sober in 1934. He gave deep understanding and great encouragement to an infant society in the days when a lack of understanding or a word of discouragement might easily have killed it. He freely risked his professional reputation to champion an unprecedented spiritual answer to the medical enigma and the human tragedy of alcoholism. Without his blessing, our faith might well have died in its birth. He was a luminous exception to the rule that only an alcoholic understands an alcoholic. He knew us better than we knew ourselves, better than we know each other. Many of us felt that his medical skill, great as that was, was not at all the full measure of his stature. Dr. Silkworth was something that it is difficult even to mention in these days. He was a saintly man. He stood in an unusual relationship to truth. He was able to see the truth of a man, when that truth was deeply hidden from the man himself and from everyone else. He was able to save lives that were otherwise beyond help of any kind. Such a man cannot really die. We wish to honor this man, a gentle doctor with white hair and china blue eyes. Dr. Silkworth lived on Chelsea Avenue in Long Branch, New Jersey, attended Long Branch High School where he has been inducted in that school’s Hall of Fame, graduated from Princeton University, and lived for a while in Little Silver NJ. He was born on July 22, 1873 and died on March 22, 1951. PLEASE BE SURE TO BRING A LAWN CHAIR OR SOMETHING TO SIT ON. If you have any questions please call Barefoot Bill (Area 44 History and Archives Chairperson) at 201-232-8749 (cell) or email archives@nnjaa.org Directions: Take the Garden State Parkway (north or south) to Exit 105 (Route 36), continue on Route 36 approximately 3 miles through 5 traffic lights (passing Monmouth Mall, two more shopping plazas, and several automobile dealerships). Watch for green road signs stating “Route 71 South, West Long Branch and Asbury Park” (this is just before the sixth light). Take this turnoff to the right, past Carriage Square and bear right onto Route 71 (Monmouth Road). Glenwood Cemetery appears very quickly on the left (the entrance is marked by two stone pillars and the name). Once inside the cemetery, bear left, go up the hill and make the first right (a hard right). The gravesite is near the first tree on the right. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4321. . . . . . . . . . . . Rocketed into the Fourth Dimension From: rxichard2nd . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/8/2007 4:16:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Greetings, Is there any information where Bill W. (or anyone other contributor) came up with the phrase ""rocketed into a fourth dimension of existence of which we have not even dreamed"? (BB, pg 25) After much research, I found many references to the phrase on AA- related sites, but no info on its origin in the Big Book. The 4th dimension was first mentioned in ancient Euclidean geometry, it dealt with spatial cubes, not with time as we associate it today. What I think Bill was more referring to was the space-time continuum in Einstein's theories of relativity. Bill was obviously a voracious reader and I'm certain he was familiar with Einstein's theories which were first published in 1915. Of course, much of Einstein's work stemmed from Newton's gravitational theories published centuries earlier. This probably led to my next find. The first reference I could find in popular literature that Bill may also have read is H.G. Wells' "The Time Traveler" from 1895, which also dealt with time travel and specifically mentions the 4th dimension. Although I have my own pet theories, I'm curious if there's any factual evidence how the phrase in the Big Book came about? Before I close, here's my personal version of my 4th dimension of existence - I have been blessed with the ability to lead two lives in one lifetime. Although my rocket ride into my second life was more like a slow boat, my sober life has truly been a time travel into a new life. Be well, my fellow time travelers. Rick B. Hagerstown, Maryland IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4322. . . . . . . . . . . . Adler, Social Interest and AA From: rdg1649 . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/22/2007 6:47:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In a recent post concerning Karen Horney, Alfred Adler and his influence on AA was mentioned by the moderator. I would be very interested in comments developing on this theme. Considering that the idea of 'social interest'--involvement in and commitment to the wider community was a key concept in Adler's definition of mental health it is not surprising that he would have influenced and perhaps been influenced by AA. Insights into this connection would be greatly appreciated. - - - - FROM THE MODERATOR Part of Alfred Adler's connection with AA: See the passage on Bill Wilson's mother, Dr. Emily Griffith Wilson, in Pass It On, page 290: "During a stay in Vienna, Dr. Emily studied under Alfred Adler, a former colleague of Freud's." After moving to San Diego, where Emily spent the latter part of her life, she "became a lecturer and practitioner in the Adlerian school of psychoanalysis." We can be guaranteed that Bill Wilson knew a little bit, at least, about Adler. The reason why Bill cited James and Jung by name so prominently (see Big Book pp. 26 and 28) was because they were the only major figures in the field of psychiatry and psychology during the 1930's (the only ones who had widespread name recognition) who said anything positive about spirituality and belief in God. That did not mean that they were the only people in psychology and psychiatry whom Bill W. and Dr. Bob had read, or by whom they had been affected. The old Akron reading list for AA beginners ( http://hindsfoot.org/archives.html ) asked the new alcoholics who checked into St. Thomas Hospital to read a book by Ernest M. Ligon on psychology and spirituality. Ligon was well known and highly regarded in American psychological circles during his day (although little known today). Nevertheless, his name did not carry the clout which you could get by citing James and Jung. Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4323. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Karen Horney From: Ernest Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/22/2007 8:23:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Ernest Kurtz and Steve D. From: Ernest Kurtz (kurtzern at umich.edu) I am sorry: I cannot remember any name, but at least one early New York member was in therapy with an immediate disciple of Horney or perhaps with Horney herself. My remembered source is reading of such a reference in the earliest AA correspondence, not all of which was Bill W's. I do not know whether the current digitization of some of this material would allow the present archivist to search for such a reference. Not-God, p. 244, notes: " . . . consistently and indeed inevitably, given the nature of their "disease," anonymous alcoholics wrote to Wilson "Dear Bill" letters lamenting their inability to practice the A.A. program "perfectly." As consistently and inevitably, given the nature of his insight, the co-founder fired back tempering responses." The note to that paragraph reads (in part): ". . . Harry J. (Saginaw, Ml) to Dr. Karen Horney, copy sent to Wilson and in A.A. archives, undated, but internally datable to July or August 1953;" ernie kurtz - - - - From: STEVIE D. (stevied519@hotmail.com) Just some food for thought. Carl Jung (a Freud "dissident") also had a huge impact in the beginning. Indeed, I think his impact was far more noteworthy. Check out Wikipedia just for fun. Peace. Stephen IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4324. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Rocketed into the Fourth Dimension From: elephant_7 . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/22/2007 11:23:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The phrase "rocketed into the Fourth Dimension" is a favorite of mine. The question of its origin and meaning interests me, too. The following quote is from V.C. Kitchen's "I Was a Pagan" (pgs 24-25, stepstudy.org version): "With this change — but not before — could I see the reason for my former failures. It was as if I had stepped all at once from the ordinary world of three dimensions into a fourth-dimensional sphere. "It is difficult to describe such matters to those who have not yet gained spiritual insight, just as it would be difficult to explain colors to a man who is color blind. Moral blindness is much the same thing, and it is a blindness which clears away only when you become sensitive to the light of the spiritual realm. "In ordinary terms, therefore, I can only say that I had been unable to see light because I stood in my own way. I had, as you may remember, suspected that there might be some supra-sensible kind of spiritual light, just as there were ultra-violet rays of sunlight and invisible beams of knowledge which flow into our minds. I now found that this was so and found, also as I suspected, that the coarseness of my own nature obscured this light to a degree which made me unable to "see" it." Kitchen was a member of the Oxford Group in New York. He ran around with Bill Wilson in the "Alcoholic Squadron" of the Group there. It is possible that Bill got this phrase from Kitchen, whose book was published in 1934, five years prior to the Big Book. It is also possible that Bill and Kitchen pulled this phrase from the same source, or that such language was common to the New York Oxford Group at that time. In any case, it is fairly clear from Kitchen's usage that the "fourth dimension" is probably not the same one discussed by physicists. They appropriate the term to describe the radical transformation of their perception that takes place when their lives are Changed in the Group. Kitchen also talks about a "supra-sensible" light of spiritual perception that one can see only when connected to this dimension. "Invisible beams of knowledge" that flow into his mind. He's clearly not talking about space-time. All the same, the language here is a big more than figurative. I don't think Kitchen means this as a metaphor (though I could be wrong). I think he really feels that this fourth dimension is a real spiritual dimension that really does beam knowledge and insight into our minds. (Frankly, I think its a pretty good explanation.) Bill's usage, in my opinion, seems to be more figurative. The use of "rocketed" is typical Bill. Grandiose, prone to exaggeration, intensely excited about sharing this stuff with other alcoholics. Hope that helps. James R. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4325. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Adler, how about Harry Stack Sullivan and Dr. Earle Marsh? From: pmds@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/23/2007 8:35:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In this vein, is there any indication that the work of Harry Stack Sullivan, another psychiatrist who was around in this period, contributed in any way to the crystallizing of AA ideas? I know that Dr. Earle Marsh (Physician Heal Thyself) trained in psychiatry under Sullivan. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4326. . . . . . . . . . . . Obituary: Joseph Zuska, 93, first U.S. Navy alcoholism treatment From: Phil . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/24/2007 7:05:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII LA Times obituary for Dr. Joseph Zuska who (with AA member Cmdr. Dick Jewell, ret'd) started the first officially sanctioned alcoholism treatment program for U.S. Navy personnel during the mid 1960's. - - - - AA History Lovers, Please find below article of the LA Times Obituary for Joe Zuska, MD, Navy Retired Captain who passed away recently. I am sure many in this group know someone who received treatment in the Navy Alcohol Treatment Program, including myself and those who are current or former members of the Navy's "Drydocks." My condolences to all affected by his passing. phill95 gratituder - - - - Joseph Zuska, 93 Navy doctor developed treatment for alcoholism By Jocelyn Y. Stewart, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer Obituaries May 24, 2007 Inside a rusted Quonset hut at the Long Beach Naval Station, Dr. Joseph J. Zuska operated a clandestine program, treating sailors for an illness that in the eyes of the Navy did not exist. It was the mid-1960s, a time when alcoholism and its accompanying behavior were treated as violations of Navy policy, punishable by time in the brig. Yet the atmosphere on base and at sea encouraged heavy drinking. The abiding image of the drunk sailor was a reality for many. After a conversation with a retired Navy commander who was also a recovering alcoholic, Zuska began treating the illness as a medical problem. His underground program, the first in the history of the armed forces, eventually earned national acclaim, providing a model for other branches of the military and private industry. Zuska died May 17 at Los Alamitos Medical Center of complications from kidney failure and other illnesses, his son, John Zuska, said. He was 93. "He's well-loved by thousands of alcoholics across the country whose lives he actually saved, including mine," said Charley B. who served in the Air Force and was treated by Zuska beginning in 1969. He asked that his full name not be used, following a tradition that honors the anonymity of Alcoholics Anonymous members. In the years after Zuska retired in 1970, the rehabilitation program placed many notables on the path to sobriety, including former First Lady Betty Ford; Billy Carter, brother of former President Carter; and Apollo 11 astronaut Buzz Aldrin. The program, which operated out of the Long Beach Naval Hospital on Terminal Island, included inpatient medical care, daily group therapy, psychological counseling, Alcoholics Anonymous meetings, lectures and movies on alcoholism. The highly effective treatment allowed patients to "return to work and saved the Navy money by salvaging people," said Dr. Ted Williams, director of addiction treatment services at St. Joseph Hospital in Orange, who headed the Navy program in the 1980s. Before the birth of the program, the prevailing belief was that nothing could be done for alcoholics. When doctors made the diagnosis, a sailor could be demoted or booted out of the Navy. The turnabout for Zuska began with a question. One day in 1965, retired Navy Cmdr. Dick Jewell walked into his office and asked: What are you doing about alcoholism in the Navy? "I had no answers," Zuska said in a 1997 Times article. "The Navy, including myself, had no real understanding of the disease process of alco- holism." But Jewell, new to the world of sobriety, was full of enthusiasm and the belief that alcoholism could be treated. Zuska, who was the senior medical officer at the Long Beach Naval Station and a captain, had the power, if not the authorization, to put that belief into practice. "That day they created what became the No. 1 system for treating alcoholics," said Dr. Joseph A. Pursch, who ran the program after Zuska retired. Though the program had not been approved by Navy officials, Zuska began holding weekly meetings of Alcoholics Anonymous in a conference room at the naval station, then moved to the Quonset hut when the number of participants grew. The doctor found an 80-bed barracks and turned it into an inpatient recovery facility. Word soon spread that lives were being changed, and higher-ups in the Navy found out. "The brass was alarmed for two reasons: Accord- ing to policy there were no alcoholics in the Navy at that time, hence there was no need for a treatment policy; and there were quite a few alcoholic admirals and generals on active duty in the Pentagon," Pursch wrote in a 1987 column for The Times. A commission was sent to investigate what was called an illegal activity, but it acknowledged that the Navy had alcoholics and that the treatment program Zuska had created was effective. In 1967 the Pentagon gave Zuska approval for the first official Alcohol Rehabilitation Center, and by 1971, 70% of 900 patient admissions showed "demonstrated improvement." In the 1980s the Navy's surgeon general sent doctors to Long Beach to learn from the program. The Navy eventually opened 33 rehabilitation centers around the world. By the early 1990s the Navy had shut down the hospital and later scaled back the program in favor of outpatient treatment. An increase in awareness about alcoholism and effective treatments in the military is attributed to Zuska. Zuska was born in Chicago on June 9, 1913, and earned his medical degree from the University of Illinois. He married Martha Josephine Parham in 1939, and the couple had two children. In addition to his son, of Oakland, Zuska is survived by daughter Sky St. Cloud of Culver City and granddaughter Sarah Zuska of Berkeley. During World War II, Zuska provided medical care to Marines during the Battle of Tarawa and at Saipan. In the Korean War, he was chief of surgery on a hospital ship attending to those wounded during the Inchon invasion. Decades of experience in the military informed his view of the causes of alcoholism. What he saw led him to reject the view widely held in the 1960s that alcoholism was rooted in moral weakness or caused by an emotional problem. Zuska recalled an officers club where he had to pay for coffee but wine was free. There were bar games such as the "pressure cooker," in which drinks were 10 cents each until someone left; then they were full price. People don't fall off the wagon, Zuska said in a 1976 Times article. "They're pushed off by society's insistence that they have a drink," he said. "Modern society doesn't relish the idea that some people can't drink safely." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4327. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Karen Horney From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/23/2007 3:10:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII FYI - I wonder if there is too much search for the obscure and not enough for the overt? In the summer of 1944 Bill W began twice-a-week treatment with Dr Harry M Tiebout for debilit- ating episodes of depression. Some AA members were outraged and castigated Bill for “not working the program,” “secretly drinking” and “pill taking.” Bill endured the attacks in silence. Tiebout had a close association with AA since 1939 and his initial experiences with Marty Mann. Pass It On pgs 292-303 goes into Bill's episodes of depression fairly thoroughly along with the methods he used to deal with them. In 1945 Bill W started seeing psychotherapist, Dr Frances Weeks (a Jungian) once a week on Fridays. He continued to see her until 1949 for his episodes of depression (re Pass It On pgs 334-335). My personal take is that Dr Harry Tiebout would have had the major Psychiatric influence on Bill during the 1940s and 1950s. He and Bill reputedly maintained a substantial correspondence over the years. Also Tiebout's 1944 paper "Thera- peutic Mechanism of Alcoholics Anonymous" is informative in his statement "In conclusion, it is my belief that the therapeutic value of the Alcoholics Anonymous approach arises from its use of a religious or spiritual force to attack the fundamental narcissism of the alcoholic." Also, William James "the founding father of American psychology" had a substantial seminal influence on Bill W and early AA as well as evidenced by Bill's own account. Cheers Arthur IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4328. . . . . . . . . . . . List of all known early AA pamphlets and can openers From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/23/2007 10:02:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The Intergroups are a separate service structure that preceded the General Service structure. Some sell only conference approved items but most sell non conference approved items also. I recently came back from Akron and I bought pamphlets from Akron, Chicago, Cleveland as well as a Forward Movement pamphlet called "Prayers for Alcoholics" and "Emergency Rations" by Roy L. Smith (copyrighted by The Upper Room). They also sell copies of the original "can-openers" or pamphlets that were distrib- uted to members about the AA program from Akron, Cleveland and Chicago. We had these "can-openers" in Philadelphia too. For the original 100 members there was no conference and no Big Book. Only these pamphlets and the Bible (besides meetings and working with a sponsor) to keep one sober. Has anyone compiled a complete list of all the early can openers or pamphlets? Shakey Mike Gwirtz The Monkey is off my back but the Circus is still in town.... See ya in Owensville, MD, Elizabethtown, Pa. and Phoenix, AZ. ______________________________ From the moderator: See http://hindsfoot.org/ed01.html , a letter from Bobby Burger, the secretary at the New York A.A. headquarters (then called the Alcoholic Foundation), dated November 11, 1944, written to Barry Collins in Minneapolis, said that there were at least 25 pamphlets of this sort already in existence by that point, and that the New York office saw good points in all of them, and had no objection to any AA group printing and selling this kind of material. "Dear Barry: . . . The Washington D.C. pamphlet and the new Cleveland "Sponsorship" pamphlet and a host of others are all local projects. We do not actually approve or disapprove of these local pieces; by that I mean that the Foundation feels each Group is entitled to write up its own "can opener" and let it stand on its own merits. All of them have good points and very few have caused any controversy. But as in all things of a local nature, we keep hands off, either pro or con. I think there must be at least 25 local pamphlets now being used and I've yet to see one that hasn't had some good points. I think it is up to each individual Group whether it wants to use and buy these pamphlets from the Group that puts them out. Sincerely, Bobby (Margaret R. Burger)" IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4329. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: list of all known early AA pamphlets and can openers From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/28/2007 2:29:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From tcumming: Though far from complete, this might get you started [something I worked on for a while a few years back. I think this version will give you links to old posts in our two groups - AAHistoryLovers and Buffs] One note about your original message: You said -- > For the original 100 members there was no > conference and no Big Book. Only these pamphlets > and the Bible (besides meetings and working > with a sponsor) to keep one sober. > most all of the "AA pamphlets" were published > after the Big Book. With 100 or less members in only 3 cities at most, it was just a lot easier to convey the message directly one-on-one than go to the the trouble and expense of even memographing a pamphlet. ----------------------------------------- EARLY PAMPHLETS ----------------------------------------- Mr. X and Alcoholics Anonymous, L- 226 - Mr. X and Alcoholics Anonymous(1939) http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/226 - - - - AA (AKA The Houston Pamphlet). L- 381 - Possibly the 1st AA Pamphlet (1940) (I have a scan of the cover) http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/381 - - - - Alcoholics Anonymous, An Interpretation of the 12 Steps (AKA Tablemate Guide or the Detroit Pamphlet). (I've got as a file, and also recent reprint from Detroit) http://hindsfoot.org/detr0.html http://hindsfoot.org/Detr1.html http://hindsfoot.org/Detr2.html http://hindsfoot.org/Detr3.html http://hindsfoot.org/Detr4.html - - - - The Cleveland Four Absolutes Pamphlet (I have as a PDF file) - - - - Impressions of AA -- from the Chicago Group, by Judge John T. L- 174 - Chicago's Impressions of AA (1940's) http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/174 - - - - Intro To AA pamphlet -- by the Philadelphia Group. L- 396 - Early 1940's Philadelphia "Intro To AA" Pamphlet (I have a scan of the cover) http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/396 - - - - What About the Alcoholic Employee? -- Re-print of Chapter 10 from Big Book. (I have a scan of the cover) - - - - The Akron Manual (1941) L- 234 - The Akron Manual - 1940 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/234 L- 360 - The Akron Manual - 1940 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/360 L- 361 - The Akron Manual - 1940. Part 2 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/361 - - - - Guide to the Twelve Steps Second Reader For Alcoholics Anonymous Spiritual Milestones in AA -- all three by the King's School Group in Akron. (these should be available somewhere, somehow) - - - - AA Sponsorship... Its Opportunities and Its Responsibilities by Clarence S L- 192 - 1944 A.A. Sponsorship Pamphlet http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/192 L- 307 - 1944 AA Sponsorship Pamphlet (by Clarence Snyder) http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/307 AA Tradition - How It Developed, by The Alcoholic Foundation, 1947. -articles from Grapevine - - - - About the Alcoholic Husband, by The Alcoholic Foundation, 1947. Reprint of Chaper 8, To Wives - - - - Medicine Looks at Alcoholics Anonymous by Works Publishing Inc 1949. reprint of papers/talks presented to the by Drs. Harry Tiebout, Foster Kennedy, Kirby Collier, and W.W. Bauer. Current version also has a talk by Bill W., made in May 1944. L-166 - Basic Concepts of Alcoholics Anonymous (NY State Journal of Medicine, Aug 44) http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/166 (I have a scan of the cover) -- since this one is still currently being distributed by GSO, might be better not to use it - - - - The Society of Alcoholics Anonymous by William W., Co-founder, -- The American Journal of Psychiatry, Nov 1949. B-417 - Bill W's address to the American Psychiatric Asso - Pt 1 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aahistorybuffs/message/417 B-418 - Bill W's address to the American Psychiatric Asso - Pt 2 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aahistorybuffs/message/418 - - - - AA - God's Instrument (AKA Why We Were Chosen - which is actually an abreviated form of the whole) (before 1950) -- Chicago Central Office. L- 251 - Why we were chosen (Oct. 1943) http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/251 L-269 - Source of "Why We Were Chosen" http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/269 - - - - High Road to Happiness (late 1940's early 1950's) distributed by the Brighter Side Group of Waterloo, Iowa. (I have as a HTM file & PDF) - - - - AA...A Uniquely American Phenomenon -- Feb 1951, Fortune magazine B-1090 - 1951 Fortune Magazine Article - (I have a scan of the pamphlet cover - also magazine cover) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aahistorybuffs/message/1090 - - - - The Alcoholic Wife - A Message To Husbands, 1954. - - - - Respecting Money by Bill W.(Co-Founder). from the Nov. 1957 Grapevine. (in Language of the Heart- I can type out) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4330. . . . . . . . . . . . Inside covers of 2d edition Big Books From: John Wikelius . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/26/2007 11:29:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Are all the second editions covers black on the inside? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4331. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: list of all known early AA pamphlets and can openers From: bob gordon . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/28/2007 3:53:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Here's a link to a 1951 article by Sister Ignatia St. Thomas Hospital And A.A. Started A Movement Which Swept The Country By Sister M. Ignatia, C.S.A. St. Thomas Hospital, Akron, Ohio *http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/2016* From the October 1951 issue of "Hospital Progress" (the official journal of the Catholic Hospital) Bob G IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4332. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Inside covers of 2d edition Big Books From: Jay Lawyer . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/28/2007 4:34:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Inside dust cover is black but inside hardcover is white. Both editions I have. _____ From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Wikelius Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2007 11:30 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Inside covers of 2d edition Big Books Are all the second editions covers black on the inside? _._,___ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4333. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: list of all known early AA pamphlets and can openers From: ricktompkins . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/28/2007 11:02:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII One thing about the Chicago Group and its printing---in the winter of 1940 a reprint of a column in the Chicago Sun or Herald-American newspaper was used two ways: as a public relations (P.I.) resource and a carry-along (handout) for new members and their families. "All Things Considered" was written by the same gentleman who later wrote an "Acceptance" pamphlet that's still independently published and available, but right now I can't remember his name ... The column described attending a Tuesday night "Big Meeting" of the Chicago Group, and it dealt enthusiastically with AA recovery and the AA Fellowship. The Chicago Central Office AA published at least five pamphlets for newcomers ("can openers") before 1950; I'll try to get all the titles and first printing dates but all are from the mid-to-late 1940s: "The Devil and AA" "Out of the Fog" "AA-God's Instrument" "Impressions of AA" and a few others. All are printed today! Great thread! IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4334. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: list of all known early AA pamphlets and can openers From: Jayaa82@earthlink.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/29/2007 7:01:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The 4 Akron Pamphlets are still produced and sold by the Akron Intergroup. - - - - NOTE FROM THE MODERATOR: But you should check the present versions against the early printings to see what changes have been made. For example, the Akron Intergroup still publishes what they claim is the original pamphlet called "A Manual for Alcoholics Anonymous." But they have removed the section at the end which gives the old Akron AA recommended reading list for newcomers, thus giving a very misleading impression about early Akron AA, and contributing to the misleading caricature of early Akron AA which appears in some contemporary AA literature and discussion. "The following literature," the original pamphlet said at the end, "has helped many members of Alcoholics Anonymous." Alcoholics Anonymous [the Big Book] The Holy Bible [but the only parts of the Bible mentioned in the rest of the pamphlet were the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5-7, the letter of James, 1 Corinthians 13, and Psalms 23 and 91, so these were clearly seen as the most important parts of the Bible] The Greatest Thing in the World, Henry Drummond The Unchanging Friend, a series (Bruce Publishing Co., Milwaukee) As a Man Thinketh, James Allen The Sermon on the Mount, Emmet Fox (Harper Bros.) The Self You Have to Live With, Winfred Rhoades. Psychology of Christian Personality, Ernest M. Ligon (Macmillan Co.) Abundant Living, E. Stanley Jones The Man Nobody Knows, Bruce Barton IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4335. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: list of all known early AA pamphlets and can openers From: Bruce C. . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/29/2007 11:36:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi All Here is a list of some of the early AA pamphlets I have seen. All early can openers had a point. I have seen two "AA" pamphlets or booklets, both from Works Publishing: 1. - The Houston Press reprints of intro, an editorial, and 6 - articles published by The Houston Press, with a reprint of "A New Approach to Psychotherapy in Chronic Alcoholism", by Dr. Silkworth, from "The Journal - Lancet, MN. July, 1939, Vol. LIX, No. 7, page 312.(no copyright date, circa. 1940) 2. - AA pamphlet or booklet, 29 pages, Alcoholics Anonymous intro, Am I An Alcoholic?, The Doctor's Nightmare, The European Drinker, Women Suffer Too, Bill's Story, Medicine, Religion and Alcoholics Anonymous, The Twelve Steps, Our Friends Say, Book Review by Dr. Harry Emerson Fosdick. copyright 1943. Other Works Publishing pamphlets or booklets: Medicine Looks at A.A. - 1946 A.A. Tradition - 1947 Sedatives - 1948 The Society of Alcoholics Anonymous - 1950 Pamphlets Booklets with "color covers", by the Alcoholic Foundation: A.A. for the Woman - 1952 Sedatives and the Alcoholic - 1952 The Alcoholic Employee - 1952 Young People and A.A. - 1953 The items stated earlier reprinted from Akron - Cleveland, Ohio, and Detroit, MI., and Chicago, IL. central offices. Bruce C. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4336. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Sullivan and Horney From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/29/2007 8:35:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In Message 4327, Arthur Sheehan wrote: > FYI - I wonder if there is too much search for > the obscure and not enough for the overt? Looking past Harry Tiebout and Frances Wickes to identify influences on the development of AA is hardly searching for the obscure. Tiebout had an inquiring and wide-ranging mind -- if he didn't, he would never have given a thought to that strange multilith document that landed on his desk in 1939, and the course of history might have been changed. I'm sure he was successful. He could just as well have rested on his laurels, earned his generous salary, allowed himself to feel superior to other people who didn't know as much as he did about treating alcoholics. Instead, he read the book and encouraged Marty Mann to give it a chance. He was willing to consider the validity of points of view differing from his own. Why assume that Harry Stack Sullivan, the premier social psychologist of the era, would have held no interest for him? And I'm sure Tiebout wasn't the only one in 1940s AA who was interested in studies of the psychology of groups. Here is one example, not intended as an answer to the general question about Sullivan's influence but possibly a contribution to an answer. An academic psychologist by the name of O. Hobart Maurer had published extensively in the area of learning theory beginning in the 1930s . Although he was not a therapist he was loyal to Freudian ideas and had been analyzed several times for his recurring depressions. During the second world war he worked (I believe for the CIA but possibly it was the defense department) in Washington, developing interviewing and training techniques for service personnel. Sullivan trained and mentored the other psychologists on the project. Over the next few years, Dr. Maurer had a complete change of heart, totally rejected Freudian theory, and developed a rather extreme type of group therapy which he called "Integrity Therapy." One of the influences leading to this change was Sullivan, although there were others -- including, strangely enough, a novelist who had been associated with Frank Buchman. Integrity Therapy had a brief period of intense popularity, during which it was instrumental in the development of the therapeutic-community approach to drug treat- ment. Hobart Maurer, by the way, originated the phrase "You are your secrets" which morphed into "You are as sick as your secrets" and is associated (by some people, at least) with AA. He had many friends and associates in AA besides his obvious connection to the rehab culture. I believe Ernie Kurtz, in one of the essays in "The Collected Ernie Kurtz", remarked on the importance of Harry Stack Sullivan to the philosophy of alcohol and drug rehab. I know many will reject this as unrelated to AA, but if AA is its members surely rehab personnel have been important. Cora IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4337. . . . . . . . . . . . YES, 2nd ed dust covers are black inside From: G Rohde . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/29/2007 10:43:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII 2nd edition Big Books, from G. Rohde, lookwhosdunn, and Bill Lash. - - - From: "G Rohde" (feelgoodcp at gmail.com) "Inside dust cover is black but inside hardcover is white." Same with all 2nd editions I have. Also I understand that the back of the paper dust cover is black so you can use it to make the book anonymous. - - - - From: "lookwhosdunn" (lookwhosdunn at yahoo.com) I have two 2nd editions and both inside dust covers are black. - - - - From: Bill Lash (barefootbill at optonline.net) I have two 2nd Editions & both dustjackets are black on the inside. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4338. . . . . . . . . . . . NO, some 2nd ed dust covers are NOT black inside From: CBBB164@AOL.COM . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/28/2007 1:54:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII 2nd edition Big Books, from CBBB164 and hartsell. "Are all the second editions covers black on the inside?" - - - - From: CBBB164@AOL.COM (CBBB164 at AOL.COM) No. - - - - From: "hartsell" (hartsell at etex.net) Don't think mine is. I recall writing names and numbers inside the cover. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4339. . . . . . . . . . . . Swedish ivy clippings from Dr Bob''s house? From: bonniesue98 . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/29/2007 5:00:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have a beautiful Swedish Ivy plant that I grew from a clipping I won at a Gratitude Dinner several years ago. Rumor has it that the clipping came from a plant which still grows today at Dr. Bob's home in Akron. I understand visitors can get clippings from this plant, and that it is the same plant that was alive when Dr. Bob and his wife were living there. Do you know anything about this? Your friend in recovery, Bonnie W. Melbourne, Florida - - - - NOTE FROM THE MODERATOR: This seems to be a different story from the one about the clippings from a Creeping Charlie Plant that was supposed to have been at Bill Wilson`s bedside while he was in the hospital in Miami in 1971. For that, see Message #2999. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4340. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: NO, some 2nd ed dust covers are NOT black inside From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/31/2007 10:27:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII >"Are all the second editions covers black on >the inside?" Depends on what is meant by covers. If you mean the dust cover, more commonly referred to as dust jacket, yes, all the Second Edition's printings are black on the reverse of the normally facing out side. I lack original DJs for four of my Seconds, 1st, 3rd, 4th, and 5th printings. The facsimiles as well as the originals all have the black reverse. There is a statement on the back leaf, "If you wish to preserve complete personal anonymity when carrying this book, just turn this jacket inside out. It has been especially designed for your convenience." I wonder if the feedback from the rather garish First Edition dust jackets prompted this? If the inside of the board covers are being referred to, and I think these are called front/back pasted end papers, all of the Second Edition are bleached paper color. The first ten printings of the Third Edition have blue end papers, the earlier editions a lighter blue than the later. The reverses of all the DJs I have for Thirds are white. Tommy in Baton Rouge IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4341. . . . . . . . . . . . Did Rowland H. remain sober till he died? From: fogielchouki . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/1/2007 12:08:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I've heard a speaker not long ago saying that Rowland Hazard drank again before he died. chouki IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4342. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Swedish ivy / Creeping Charlie clippings From: Frederick . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/31/2007 11:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Fred I., LS31101, and Glenn C. - - - - From (Fritz689 at adelphia.net) The Swedish Ivy Plant that is given away at various conferences and workshops is decended from the Swedish Ivy plant that was sent to Bill Wilson while he was in the hospital in Miami, FL. in 1971 shortly before he died. Lois took a clipping from that plant and gave it to visitors to Stepping Stones and asked them to "Pass It On", hence establishing the name "Pass It On Plant" My wife and I received our clipping from Ray & Ginny in Akron, OH. and were told it was a 4th Generation clipping from the original plant. They in turn asked US to "Pass It On" too. We make every attempt to do that to those who ask when we meet them. This plant is common in this area of North East Ohio, but to MY knowledge is not part of the plants around 855 Ardmore St. and is ONLY given away as a gesture of fellowship to "Pass It On" Hope this helped, Fred I. Lorain,OH. (Fritz689 at adelphia.net) - - - - From: LS31101@aol.com The Swedish ivys I grow here in Houston came from an Alanon from New York who was told by her sponsor that they originally were propagated by Lois Wilson. The plant originally was said to be brought home from Bill's hospital room after he died. I was told my original was from a sixth generation cutting. The idea was to "pass them on" in remembrance of Bill W. - - - - Original message from: bonniesue98 I have a beautiful Swedish Ivy plant that I grew from a clipping I won at a Gratitude Dinner several years ago. Rumor has it that the clipping came from a plant which still grows today at Dr. Bob's home in Akron. I understand visitors can get clippings from this plant, and that it is the same plant that was alive when Dr. Bob and his wife were living there. - - - - Message 2999 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/2999 From (Fritz689 at adelphia.net) I was given a clipping from the Creeping Charlie Plant that was at Bill's bedside while he was in the hospital in Miami in 1971. The lineage of the plant that was shared with me was, from Lois Wilson it went to Scotty M. (from South Carolina) who told him to PASS IT ON as a rememberance of Bill and the fellowship that was CREEPING into the world. Scotty M. passed it on on Micheal E. from Evans, Georgia, who passed it on to Ginny G. from Lake Milton, Ohio, who gave a clipping to my wife and myself Fred & Katie I., from Lorain,Ohio. - - - - From Glenn C. in South Bend (glennccc at sbcglobal.net) The plant from which cuttings are being passed around is described as "Creeping Charlie" or "Swedish ivy." These names tend to be somewhat confusingly assigned to three different kinds of plant, one of which is usually considered a weed nowadays (even though it was deliberately brought over to the United States by the early European settlers), so it probably is not that one. So is the plant in question Plectranthus australis or Plectranthus verticillatus? 1. PLECTRANTHUS AUSTRALIS Swedish ivy (Plectranthus australis) Slightly oval, bright green leaves have rounded toothed margins. Stems are somewhat square, trailing and green turning purplish. Unattractive small white flowers are significant because they should be removed as they appear. Sap stains finger orange. Plectranthus australis is a member of the mint family, and it's not an ivy, which is rather odd, since it's called Swedish Ivy. 2. PLECTRANTHUS VERTICILLATUS Plectranthus verticillatus: Swedish Ivy, Swedish Begonia, Creeping Charlie. Plectranthus verticillatus, native to eastern South Africa, is called "Swedish Ivy" because its discoverer first sent it to Sweden, where it quickly became widely grown as a house plant. From there it was introduced to the rest of Europe and the U.S. It is sometimes erroneously sold as P. australis, a synonym of P. parviflorus, which is a com- pletely different species native to Australia. In addition to use as an easy container plant, this semi-succulent Plectranthus is adaptable to sun or shade outdoors. It makes an attractive, fast-spreading groundcover in mild climates and can be used as a summer bedding plant where it freezes in winter. In the wild, it is highly variable, but in the European and U.S. trades there is apparently only one clone. It has white flowers spotted violet in fall and winter. Occasionally seen is a sport that is randomly striped and blotched with white. In South Africa there are other clones, including one with pink flowers. 3. GLECHOMA HEDERACEA Creeping charlie (Glechoma hederacea), also known as ground ivy and creeping jenny, is a low-growing perennial weed that thrives in moist, shady areas of the lawn and garden. The four- sided stems grow to lengths of 15-30 inches with roots forming at the nodes, where leaves join the stem. Its leaves resemble those of the common geranium, round and scalloped, but are much smaller in size. In the early spring an abundance of tiny, lavender to blue flowers appear on 2 or 3-inch spikes. Creeping Charlie, ground ivy, gill-on-the-ground, creeping Jenny – it doesn't matter what name you call it, this is a weed that's difficult to control. Glechoma hederacea is a perennial weed in the mint family that spreads by seeds, rhizomes and creeping stems that root at the nodes. This European native was introduced to North America by early settlers who thought it was a good groundcover for shade. The bright green, round or kidney-shaped leaves have scalloped edges and are produced opposite each other on the square (four-sided) stem. In spring small, bluish-purple, funnel-shaped flowers bloom on short stems. When the plant is crushed, it produces a strong mint-like odor. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4343. . . . . . . . . . . . Harry Stack Sullivan etc. From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/1/2007 8:03:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There was a group of women in AA in NYC and the area ca 1947-53 who (I believe at Marty Mann's suggestion)were in group therapy with the Sullivanite therapist Dr. Frank Hale at 167 E 82nd St: they called themselves "Hale's Hearties." (See my THIS STRANGE ILLNESS: ALCOHOLISM AND BILL W, 2004, pp. 306-07 -- the same book includes discussion of Tiebout, Sullivan, Sandor Rado, and others, in the Chapter on "Mind: The Psychology of Alcoholism" pp. 129-166 -- The importance of Rado should not be overlooked). IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4344. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Sullivan and Horney From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/1/2007 9:31:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Cora You are employing a practice of putting your words in my mouth and criticizing me for what you are articulating. There is an abundance of written material from Bill W on the three main channels of inspiration for AA's program of recovery (the 12 Steps). He identified them as Dr Silkworth, the Oxford Group (principally through Sam Shoemaker) and William James. Dr Tiebout's commentary after a May 1944 talk by Bill W to the Medical Society of the State of NY (and Tiebout's January 1944 paper "Therapeutic Mechanism of Alcoholics Anonymous") lean more toward suggesting that psychiatry had something to learn from AA rather than the other way around. But perhaps I'm just being a bit too obvious based on the written record. Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of corafinch Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 7:35 AM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Sullivan and Horney In Message 4327, Arthur Sheehan wrote: > FYI - I wonder if there is too much search for > the obscure and not enough for the overt? Looking past Harry Tiebout and Frances Wickes to identify influences on the development of AA is hardly searching for the obscure. Tiebout had an inquiring and wide-ranging mind -- if he didn't, he would never have given a thought to that strange multilith document that landed on his desk in 1939, and the course of history might have been changed. I'm sure he was successful. He could just as well have rested on his laurels, earned his generous salary, allowed himself to feel superior to other people who didn't know as much as he did about treating alcoholics. Instead, he read the book and encouraged Marty Mann to give it a chance. He was willing to consider the validity of points of view differing from his own. Why assume that Harry Stack Sullivan, the premier social psychologist of the era, would have held no interest for him? And I'm sure Tiebout wasn't the only one in 1940s AA who was interested in studies of the psychology of groups. Here is one example, not intended as an answer to the general question about Sullivan's influence but possibly a contribution to an answer. An academic psychologist by the name of O. Hobart Maurer had published extensively in the area of learning theory beginning in the 1930s . Although he was not a therapist he was loyal to Freudian ideas and had been analyzed several times for his recurring depressions. During the second world war he worked (I believe for the CIA but possibly it was the defense department) in Washington, developing interviewing and training techniques for service personnel. Sullivan trained and mentored the other psychologists on the project. Over the next few years, Dr. Maurer had a complete change of heart, totally rejected Freudian theory, and developed a rather extreme type of group therapy which he called "Integrity Therapy." One of the influences leading to this change was Sullivan, although there were others -- including, strangely enough, a novelist who had been associated with Frank Buchman. Integrity Therapy had a brief period of intense popularity, during which it was instrumental in the development of the therapeutic-community approach to drug treat- ment. Hobart Maurer, by the way, originated the phrase "You are your secrets" which morphed into "You are as sick as your secrets" and is associated (by some people, at least) with AA. He had many friends and associates in AA besides his obvious connection to the rehab culture. I believe Ernie Kurtz, in one of the essays in "The Collected Ernie Kurtz", remarked on the importance of Harry Stack Sullivan to the philosophy of alcohol and drug rehab. I know many will reject this as unrelated to AA, but if AA is its members surely rehab personnel have been important. Cora IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4345. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Stewart''s Cafeteria and the Alcoholic Squadron From: Chris . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/3/2007 9:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello all, Given that the Calvary Mission was on East 23rd Street, between 2nd and 3rd Avenues (3 long blocks east of 5th Avenue), and that the Stewart's Cafeteria discussed here is essentially at West 4th Street and 7th Avenue (two long blocks west of 5th Avenue) and there being the 19 blocks north to south between the two locations, either A) The Stewart's referenced in the posts is not the Stewart's we are interested in, or B) The use of the term 'near' is open to a very broad interpretation. I am a resident of NYC. Now -- and I am sure then -- there are plenty of places between the Mission and Sheridan Square to stop for coffee and pie. IF this Stewart's is the actual destination, it would have been because of the crowd, rather than the proximity to the Mission. Maybe the OG was out to save the folks from the Partisan Review. But if Bill and the rest of the Squadron went there, it wasn't for convenience's sake. Chris --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "johnlawlee" wrote: > > --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, > "Arthur S" wrote about the > OG alcoholics going to Stewart's Cafeteria > after OG meetings. > > The "alcoholic squadron" of the OG used to > meet in Stewart's Cafeteria in 1935, which was > the exact period that the startup staff of the > Partisan Review met in the same establishment > late at night. The two groups no doubt > interacted, as they stood in line for apple > pie and coffee. I recall reading that Stewart's > was open all night, and had an automat format. > There must have been an interesting contrast > in the discussions of the two groups, the > drunks complaining about the "churchies" from > the OG, and the communists complaining about > the opium of the people. > > john lee > where the Allegheny meets the Monongahela, to form the Ohio > > > > Dec (late), after Oxford Group meetings, > > Bill W and other OG alcoholics met at > > Stewart's Cafeteria near the Calvary > > Mission. Attendees included Rowland H and > > Ebby T. (BW-RT 207, BW-40 160, AAGA 141-142, > > NG 314) > > > > Cheers > > Arthur > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4346. . . . . . . . . . . . Where to get the Chicago early AA pamphlets and can openers From: ricktompkins . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/31/2007 11:21:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII hi Group, Someone emailed me, asking where the five pamphlets of my last post can be found. The early Chicago Group was blessed with literate journalists, clergy, public relations, and judiciary professionals. There are actually 10 pamphlets still in print and each continues to carry the AA message well past a half century. They're found in the CASO (Chicago Area 19 Service Office) Bookstore catalog online: 1. go to http://www.chicagoaa.org 2. Open the Bookstore link http://www.chicagoaa.org/bookstore/index.php 3. Open the catalog link (which is a .pdf file), http://www.chicagoaa.org/announcements/Bookstore%20Catalog.pdf find the Chicago AA pamphlets on page 9, the first ten on the list. 4. Enjoy! Rick, Illinois p.s. my favorite is "Out of the Fog" and it greatly helped me early on in my AA recovery. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4347. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: list of all known early AA pamphlets and can openers From: Trysh Travis . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/31/2007 6:50:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Rick-- I was interested in your post today on the Chicago pamphlets; I have tried to get original publication dates for the five you mention here, with no luck. I hope if you find them you'll share on History Lovers! Also, what is the "All Things Considered" that you mention below? Another pamphlet? I have been away from my email, and am just catching up, so maybe I missed a reference to it in an earlier posting? If you could clarify, I'd appreciate. thanks much, and you are right-- this is a great thread! Trysh T. ricktompkins wrote: > > > One thing about the Chicago Group and its > printing---in the winter of 1940 a reprint of > a column in the Chicago Sun or Herald-American > newspaper was used two ways: as a public > relations (P.I.) resource and a carry-along > (handout) for new members and their families. > > "All Things Considered" was written by the > same gentleman who later wrote an "Acceptance" > pamphlet that's still independently published > and available, but right now I can't remember > his name ... The column described attending > a Tuesday night "Big Meeting" of the Chicago > Group, and it dealt enthusiastically with AA > recovery and the AA Fellowship. > > The Chicago Central Office AA published at > least five pamphlets for newcomers ("can > openers") before 1950; I'll try to get all the > titles and first printing dates but all are > from the mid-to-late 1940s: > > "The Devil and AA" > > "Out of the Fog" > > "AA-God's Instrument" > > "Impressions of AA" > > and a few others. All are printed today! > Great thread! > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4348. . . . . . . . . . . . 1941 Big Book with Red Covers. From: Mike Custer . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/29/2007 4:18:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII When the 1st edition, 2nd printing of the Big Book first came out (in March 1941) I was told there were about a hundred sold with RED COVERS on them before they went to the blue covers. Is this correct or not? Thank you for your time, God bless, Mike :) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4349. . . . . . . . . . . . I''m looking for info on T. Henry & Esther E. From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/4/2007 3:00:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I'm looking for information on the following: a) T. Henry and Clarace Williams I need more than their being the Grandparents of AA / that Bill put him out of a job with National Rubber Machinery Co./ and their street address. Where did these two great OG'ers come from? How did they know Henrietta Seiberling? Why was it that she would ask them to help the "Alcoholic Squad"? What happened to them when AA broke from the OG in Akron? Does Akron AA know more about these non- alcoholic great friends of AA? b) Esther Gehl Elizardi I'm looking for more that what is listed in her story or on line. [Houston and Dallas, Texas -- her story, "A Flower of the South," is in the 2nd edition p. 343, 3rd edition p. 384. The standard online account of her life is at both http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/Authors.htm#Esther%20Elizardi and http://silkworth.net/aabiography/estherelizardi.html ] Perhaps a Houston or Dallas AAHL member can help me by asking the Intergroup Archivist for any information they have on her. Your help, as always, is much appreciated, Shakey Mike Gwirtz ************************************** Going June 23 to Archives gathering in Lebanon, Pennsylvania -- see message 4318 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/4318 September 6-9 to the 11th National Archives Workshop in Phoenix, Arizona -- see webpage http://www.aanationalarchivesworkshop.com I hope to see you all there... ************************************** IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4350. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Stewart''s Cafeteria and the Alcoholic Squadron From: John Lee . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/4/2007 1:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Chris, You're confusing Calvary House with the Calvary Mission. The Oxford Group meetings were held at Calvary House, next to Calvary Episcopal [21st and Park Ave. South]. The Calvary Mission was in the "Gashouse District" near the Bowery. Calvary House to West Village is not a particularly taxing walk. john lee pittsburgh - - - - Chris wrote: Hello all, "The Calvary Mission was on East 23rd Street, between 2nd and 3rd Avenues (3 long blocks east of 5th Avenue), and ... the Stewart's Cafeteria discussed here is essentially at West 4th Street and 7th Avenue (two long blocks west of 5th Avenue)" which means "19 blocks north to south between the two locations." This is quite a long distance to walk just for pie and coffee. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4351. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Stewart''s Cafeteria and the Alcoholic Squadron From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/4/2007 5:53:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Oxford Group meetings were held at Calvary Hall in Calvary House not the Calvary Mission - that's a big booboo on my part. The abridged posting from a larger timeline document is in error in more ways than one (thank you for pointing that out). It should have read: ========================= Dec 18, Bill W left Towns Hospital and began working with drunks. He and Lois attended Oxford Group meetings with Ebby T and Shep C at Calvary Hall in Calvary House. The Rev Sam Shoemaker was the rector at the Calvary Church (the OG’s US headquarters). The church was on 4th Ave (now Park Ave) and 21st St. Calvary House (where OG meetings were usually held) was at 61 Gramercy Park. Calvary Mission was located at 346 E 23rd St. (AABB 14-16, AACOA vii, LR 197, BW-40 155-160, NG 24-25, PIO 127, GB 32-33, AGAA 144) Dec (late), after Oxford Group meetings, Bill W and other OG alcoholics met at Stewart’s Cafeteria. Attendees included Rowland H and Ebby T. (BW-RT 207, BW-40 160, AAGA 141-142, NG 314) ========================= I have no specific address for where Stewart's Cafeteria was located. I assume due to public transportation the distances, whatever the number of blocks, would not have been all that big a factor. During the early 1960s I used to work on 14th Street and 5th Ave and most of my favorite watering holes were in the Bronx near the Yonkers line - the distance never slowed me down. If anyone does know what the actual address of Stewart's Cafeteria was I'd love to find out. A Google search reveals it had a prominent place in many colorful roles over time and was likely located in Greenwich Village, 14th St and 7th Ave as you note. Arthur IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4352. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Did Rowland H. remain sober till he died? From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/4/2007 4:34:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Arthur S. and Doug B. - - - - From: "Arthur S" (ArtSheehan at msn.com) I've come across conflicting reports on this by reputable authors and would love to see a conclusive answer that can be independently confirmed. Rowland was born October 29, 1885 and passed away on December 20, 1945 (reputedly at his office desk at work). He tragically lost two sons in World War II. Arthur - - - - From: "Doug B." (dougb at aahistory.com) chouki, Ask your speaker to cite his "source" for this information and you won't have to worry about finding an answer for them ... I'll bet you won't get a response or if you do, it'll be a very vague one. Thanks one reason I started studying our history ... there were too many experts out there with totally different information. Doug B. PS: Just because it's said from a podium doesn't make it true, it only makes it "said." (that's my 2 cents....no change necessary, thanks.) - - - - Original message from: fogielchouki I've heard a speaker not long ago saying that Rowland Hazard drank again before he died. chouki IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4353. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Did Rowland H. remain sober till he died? From: Diz Titcher . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/4/2007 2:46:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Read the book Ebby, the man who sponsored Bill W. by Mel B. ----- Original Message ----- From: fogielchouki To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 12:08 AM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Did Rowland H. remain sober till he died? I've heard a speaker not long ago saying that Rowland Hazard drank again before he died. chouki [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4354. . . . . . . . . . . . Difference between sanitariums and asylums in the 1930s? From: terry144434 . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/4/2007 3:30:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII What was the difference between a "sanitarium" and an "asylum" during the 1930s? In "More about Alcoholism," pg. 31, it mentions, amongst other things we have used as methods to try to drink like other people: going to health farms and sanitariums, accepting voluntary commitment to asylums. My question is, what was the difference between the two kinds of establishments? their different approaches to aiding alcoholics? and definitions to these types of treatments back in the 1930's. regards Terry IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4355. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Did Rowland H. remain sober till he died? From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/6/2007 1:26:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Over the past three years, a good deal of very accurate information about the life of Rowland Hazard has been assembled by three careful researchers, working principally from the collected papers of Rowland's extended family. The first work published was Richard M. Dubiel, Ph.D.,, a professor at the University of Wisconsin: "The Road to Fellowship: The Role of the Emmanuel Movement and the Jacoby Club in the Development of Alcoholics Anonymous" (2004) http://hindsfoot.org/kDub1.html which established a good many dates and events from Rowland's life, and demonstrated that the traditional AA claim that Rowland had a year of analysis with Carl Jung in 1931 could not be correct, because one could determine where Rowland was for all points in that year. If he contacted Jung at all during 1931, it could only have been for a very short period of time, and Dubiel was dubious about even that. In the period immediately following the publication of this book, two other researchers, Amy Colwell Bluhm, Ph.D., and Cora Finch, working independently, extended Dubiel's research further. They corroborated the facts that Dubiel had discovered, but then went on to establish that Rowland actually arrived in Zurich to begin psychoanalysis with Carl June in May 1926 (five years earlier than the traditional A.A. date). Rowland was in fact in analysis with Jung for an extended period of time during that year -- this part of the traditional AA story was correct -- but the traditional year was wrong. It was 1926, not 1931. The mystery was thereby solved. Bluhm and Finch also added many other dates and details to the account of Rowland's life. See Bluhm's article "Verification of C. G. Jung’s analysis of Rowland Hazard and the history of Alcoholics Anonymous" in the American Psychological Association's journal History of Psychology in November 2006 and Cora Finch's long account of Rowland Hazard's life and struggles with alcoholism at http://www.stellarfire.org/ The work of these three researchers -- Dubiel, Bluhm, and Finch -- independently corroborates one another's work. The dates and information are based on numerous family letters, written back and forth between various members of Rowland's extended family, which are dated and consistent with one another. The traditional AA claim that 1931 was the year when Rowland Hazard was in analysis with Carl Jung was based on a statement by Bill Wilson which then got repeated and repeated. The fact that the date 1931 got blindly repeated hundreds of times by scores of other people who also had never bothered to check to see whether that date was right, is irrelevant. Bill W. simply got the date wrong. This was hardly the first time that he got his numbers wrong, either! ********************************************* HERE ARE SOME EXCERPTS FROM RICH DUBIEL'S BOOK: Richard M. Dubiel, Ph.D., "The Road to Fellowship: The Role of the Emmanuel Movement and the Jacoby Club in the Development of Alcoholics Anonymous (2004) http://hindsfoot.org/kDub1.html There are many periods noted in Dubiel's book during which Rowland seems to have been drinking heavily. For example, during the period of his hunting trip in Africa in 1927, in February and March 1932 (when he had to be hospitalized) and starting up again in January 1933 (where he was unable to fully resume his normal business activities until October 1934). Dubiel says (page 66): "We do know that Hazard did not remain sober throughout his life, and did drink again after 1934," that is, after Hazard rescued Ebby Thacher and Ebby got Bill Wilson sober. Dubiel refers to one of these relapses in note 195: Hazard had a serious relapse into drinking in New Mexico in August 1936, and had to be shipped back to New York by his family. See Thomas P. Hazard Papers, Series 2, Subseries 3: Rowland Hazard III files, at the Rhode Island Historical Society. ********************************************* LET US GIVE THIS NOW IN ITS FULL CONTEXT: page 62 Rowland Hazard III was born in Peace Dale, Rhode Island, on October 29, 1881. (Bill Wilson was born in 1895 and Dr. Bob Smith in 1879, so he was closer to Dr. Bob’s age, and fourteen years older than Bill W., who likely seemed to him but a brash young man.) Rowland (“Roy”) represented the tenth generation of his family in Rhode Island. The first American Hazard, Thomas, was born in 1610; he came over to the New World after the British had begun settling in Massachusetts, taking up his residence first in Boston, then the Massachusetts Bay Colony. Roy was the eldest of five children born to woolen manufacturer Rowland Gibson Hazard and Mary Pierrepont Bushnell. Hazard graduated from the Taft School in Waterbury, Connecticut, and Yale University (1903) with a B.A. degree. He sang in the Glee Club and University Choir and was a member of Alpha Delta Phi fraternity as well as the Elihu Club. After graduation Hazard worked at family businesses in Chicago and Syracuse briefly, then entered the woolen textile trade in Rhode Island, where he joined the Peace Dale Manufacturing Company, which specialized in woolen and worsted fabrics. The firm had been founded circa 1801 by his great-great-grandfather and his great-grand-uncle, Rowland Hazard and Joseph Peace Hazard respectively. He began work in the wool-sorting department and worked his way up, eventually being elected treasurer of the firm. The firm was sold in 1918. page 63 Hazard served in the Rhode Island state senate between 1914 and 1916 and spent World War I as a captain in the Chemical Warfare Service of the Army. Shortly after the war a number of family deaths left Hazard the eldest member of his generation. In 1919 he effected a plan originally formulated by his father and uncle and formed the Allied Chemical and Dye Company. By 1920 he was a director and so remained throughout his career. By 1921 Hazard had also joined the New York banking firm of Lee, Higginson and Company and remained there until 1927. Throughout this period he remained active in Rhode Island politics. In the fall of 1927, Hazard went on a hunting expedition to Africa for big game and specimens for American museums. He contracted a tropical illness, and on his return to the United States in 1928 settled on the West Coast. He established a ranch in southern New Mexico, at La Luz, and shortly organized the La Luz Clay Products Company. He had discovered substantial deposits of high-grade clay for the manufacture of items ranging from roofing tiles to decorative urns and vases. Upon establishing La Luz, he returned to the East Coast to pursue other ventures. By 1931 he had transferred his residence from Peace Dale, Rhode Island, to a family home in Narragansett, Rhode Island, originally built in 1884 by his greatgrand-uncle, Joseph Peace Hazard, and known as Druid’s Dream. “He also kept residences intermittently at 52nd Street and other addresses in Manhattan; in La Luz, New Mexico; at ‘Ladyhill’ in Shaftsbury, Vermont; and at ‘Sugarbush’ in Glastonbury, Vermont.” In his later years, following his move to Narragansett, Hazard served as the executive vice president of the Bristol Manufacturing Company, Waterbury, Connecticut, manufacturers of precision instruments. He also served as a director of the Allied Chemical and Dye Company, the Rhode Island Hospital Trust Company, and the Interlake Iron Company. From 1935 to 1938 he was in a general partnership with the New York brokerage house of Taylor Robinson Company, Inc. At one point he was director of the old Merchants’ Bank in Providence. p. 64 In 1910 Hazard married Helen Hamilton Campbell, the daughter of a Chicago banker. The couple were divorced on February 25, 1929, and remarried on April 27, 1931, little more than a month before the trip to Europe during which Hazard was supposed to have had his crucial encounter with Carl Jung. Rowland and Helen had four children, Caroline C., Rowland G. III, Peter Hamilton, and Charles B. Of these four, it was Charles who lived the longest, dying in 1995. pp. 65-66 The Hazard family papers also show that after January 1933, Rowland went through a long period when he was virtually incapacitated by his personal problems. He ceased being actively involved in the ventures he had begun in New Mexico, and his brother-in-law Wallace Campbell had to take over all his regular business. Rowland’s canceled checks showed only routine payments (although they were still signed by him) for many months afterward. Finally in late 1933 he completely stopped writing any checks at all. During most or all of this period, he seems to have been in Vermont under the care of Courtenay Baylor, and only occasionally made trips to New York to see family and sign checks. He was unable to return to his normal high level of activity until October 1934. So the period when Hazard was Courtenay Baylor’s patient corresponded to the deepest slump in his life, the time between January 1933 and October 1934, when this normally aggressive and continuously active businessman, industri- alist, and entrepreneur seems to have been rendered almost totally nonfunctional by his psychological and alcohol-related problems. Baylor may in fact have been first called in when Hazard was hospitalized for his alcoholism in February and March of 1932, but this would be merely supposition. We do know that Baylor visited the family and worked in some fashion with other family members also during 1933 and 1934. But the lack of full detail means that though we know that their continuing relationship existed during this period, we know little else about it. The available documents thus do not allow us to discover whether Hazard’s enthusiasm for the Oxford Group was aided by his work with Baylor or diminished by it. We do know that Hazard did not remain sober throughout his life, and did drink again after 1934. p. 69 Whether from his therapy with Courtenay Baylor or his participation in the Oxford Group (or both combined), Rowland Hazard was ultimately apparently able to achieve at least significant periods of continuous sobriety; whether he achieved real serenity and happiness we cannot know. p. 78 Hazard’s later years seem to have been pros- perous enough, although he never did join Alcoholics Anonymous. In 1936 he became a member of the Episcopal Church and remained active in several of its organizations. Throughout the latter part of his troubled life, Hazard relied on the fellowship of the Oxford Group (including activities such as his work with Ebby Thatcher in 1934) to aid and comfort him in his struggle with alcohol. It was fellowship that helped him even toward the end of his life, when he was being returned to New York after his 1936 binge. note 195 The only dark spot occurred in August 1936 when Rowland had a serious drinking bout. A packet of correspondence of Rowland’s brother Thomas documents the binge in New Mexico and Rowland’s return trip to New York, see Thomas P. Hazard Papers, Series 2, Subseries 3: Rowland Hazard III files, RIHS. Stattler cites one letter that proposed enlisting the aid of an Oxford Grouper, Shep C. [Shep Cornell], to help Rowland. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4356. . . . . . . . . . . . Sr Ignatia''s book of excerpts from St. Ignatius Loyola From: bern . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/6/2007 12:12:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Bernie: The name of that book with the excerpts, is "Confidence In God." It is out of print. I have an autographed copy of it. Chuckie -----Original Message----- 'The other little book which Sister Ignatia sometimes gave to people who passed through her treatment program was a book of excerpts from the "Spiritual Exercises" of St. Ignatius Loyola (1491 or 1495-1556), the founder of the Jesuits .... if anyone in the group has a copy of that particular book of excerpts from St. Ignatius which Sister Ignatia passed out ... I would be deeply grateful for a photocopy of it. It would be important to know what portions of the "Spiritual Exercises" were excerpted, in order to get a better idea of the sources of early AA spirituality.' IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4357. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr. Silkworth Birthday Celebration, W. Long Branch NJ, 7/21/07 From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/5/2007 8:20:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Area 44 History & Archives Committee cordially invites you to the Fourth Annual Dr. Silkworth Birthday Celebration! Saturday, July 21, 2007 at 3:30PM (rain date July 28, 2007) At his gravesite in Glenwood Cemetery, Route 71 (Monmouth Rd.), West Long Branch NJ. Speakers: Barbara Silkworth (a family member) and Ed R. (nephew of Dr. Silkworth’s nurse Teddy) Dr. William Duncan Silkworth is the author of the two letters in “The Doctor’s Opinion” in the Big Book “Alcoholics Anonymous” and is known as a friend to millions of alcoholics worldwide. He detoxed Bill Wilson (AA’s co-founder) in N.Y.C. after Bill finally got sober in 1934. He gave deep understanding and great encourage- ment to an infant society in the days when a lack of understanding or a word of discouragement might easily have killed it. He freely risked his professional reputation to champion an unprecedented spiritual answer to the medical enigma and the human tragedy of alcoholism. Without his blessing, our faith might well have died in its birth. He was a luminous exception to the rule that only an alcoholic understands an alcoholic. He knew us better than we knew ourselves, better than we know each other. Many of us felt that his medical skill, great as that was, was not at all the full measure of his stature. Dr. Silkworth was something that it is difficult even to mention in these days. He was a saintly man. He stood in an unusual relationship to truth. He was able to see the truth of a man, when that truth was deeply hidden from the man himself and from everyone else. He was able to save lives that were otherwise beyond help of any kind. Such a man cannot really die. We wish to honor this man, a gentle doctor with white hair and china blue eyes. Dr. Silkworth lived on Chelsea Avenue in Long Branch, New Jersey, attended Long Branch High School where he has been inducted in that school’s Hall of Fame, graduated from Princeton University, and lived for a while in Little Silver, New Jerseu. He was born on July 22, 1873 and died on March 22, 1951. PLEASE BE SURE TO BRING A LAWN CHAIR OR SOMETHING TO SIT ON. If you have any questions please call Barefoot Bill at 201-232-8749 (cell) or email archives@nnjaa.org DIRECTIONS: Take the Garden State Parkway (north or south) to Exit 105 (Route 36), continue on Route 36 approximately 3 miles through 5 traffic lights (passing Monmouth Mall, two more shopping plazas, and several automobile dealerships). Watch for green road signs stating “Route 71 South, West Long Branch and Asbury Park” (this is just before the sixth light). Take this turnoff to the right, past Carriage Square and bear right onto Route 71 (Monmouth Road). Glenwood Cemetery appears very quickly on the left (the entrance is marked by two stone pillars and the name). Once inside the cemetery, bear left, go up the hill and make the first right (a hard right). The gravesite is near the first tree on the right. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4358. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Stewart''s Cafeteria and the Alcoholic Squadron From: Ken WENTZ . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/5/2007 12:11:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi History lovers, regarding the location of Stewarts cafateria, as a child in the early 60's my father, a fireman in NY used to take me to the Horn & Hardart Cafe at E. 14th St. between 3rd & 4th Avenues. It had an automat and was very old at that time (1965). Could this be the "cafeteria" they went to? Horn & Hardart was a big food corporation. Did they buy Stewarts & re-name it? It's certainly a lot closer to Calvary Mission. There was a White Rose Saloon next to the Cafeteria on E 14th if that's any help. ........... love this site Sober Ken Clearwater IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4359. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: I''m looking for info on T. Henry & Esther E. From: Doug B. . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/6/2007 2:46:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Mike, T. Henrys address was 676 Palisades Drive in Akron Ohio. (1.7 miles from Dr Bob's house - about a 6 minute drive) Do you know what the T. in T. Henry stands for? Doug B. Shakey1aa@aol.com > I'm looking for information on the following: > > a) T. Henry and Clarace Williams > > I need more than their being the Grandparents > of AA / that Bill put him out of a job with > National Rubber Machinery Co./ and their > street address. > > Where did these two great OG'ers come from? > How did they know Henrietta Seiberling? Why > was it that she would ask them to help the > "Alcoholic Squad"? What happened to them > when AA broke from the OG in Akron? > > Does Akron AA know more about these non- > alcoholic great friends of AA? > > b) Esther Gehl Elizardi > > I'm looking for more that what is listed in > her story or on line. > > [Houston and Dallas, Texas -- her story, > "A Flower of the South," is in the 2nd > edition p. 343, 3rd edition p. 384. The > standard online account of her life is at both > http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/Authors.htm#Esther%20Elizardi > and > http://silkworth.net/aabiography/estherelizardi.html ] > > Perhaps a Houston or Dallas AAHL member can > help me by asking the Intergroup Archivist > for any information they have on her. > > Your help, as always, is much appreciated, > Shakey Mike Gwirtz > > ************************************** > Going June 23 to Archives gathering in > Lebanon, Pennsylvania -- see message 4318 > http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/4318 > > September 6-9 to the 11th National Archives > Workshop in Phoenix, Arizona -- see webpage > http://www.aanationalarchivesworkshop.com > > I hope to see you all there... > ************************************** > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4360. . . . . . . . . . . . Did Bill W. have a home group? From: Chris . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/7/2007 1:42:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi All, Unquestionably, Bill was a very busy man after he settled at Stepping Stones (which I just visited for their annual picnic and recommend to all History Lovers). Does anyone know if he actually had a home group up in Westchester, or perhaps he made the trip down to the City for meetings or maybe his commitments just made it unfeasible for him to join one particular group. In curiosity, Chris IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4361. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Did Bill W. have a home group? From: John Lee . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/8/2007 3:35:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Bill Wilson's meeting at 182 Clinton St. in the 1930s was quite literally Bill's home group, until the house was lost to foreclosure. I've been unable to pinpoint the origins of the term "home group." It seems to be a fixation of the Grapevine staff since the 1980s. The term is not found in the Basic Text or 12&12. I haven't been able to find any mention of the term "home group" in reference to the co-founders. Can anyone find any mention of the term in AA materials published prior to the 70s? Is this another situation similar to the yarn that AA's original six steps came the Oxford Group? "Home group" seems to be a designation invented in the 70s or 80s; if that is true, the concept would have been nomenclature developed after Bill Wilson's death in 1971. Bill wouldn't have had a "home group" any more than he would have surfed the Internet or written about President Bush. john lee pittsburgh Chris wrote: Hi All, Unquestionably, Bill was a very busy man after he settled at Stepping Stones (which I just visited for their annual picnic and recommend to all History Lovers). Does anyone know if he actually had a home group up in Westchester, or perhaps he made the trip down to the City for meetings or maybe his commitments just made it unfeasible for him to join one particular group. In curiosity, Chris IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4362. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Did Bill W. have a home group? From: John Lee . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/9/2007 2:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The Grapevine archives indicate that first use of the term "home group" in that publication was in 1947, or shortly after Bill Wilson published his series of Gravevine articles ["Twelve Points to Assure Our Future"] on what became the Twelve Traditions. Bill's articles on the Traditions don't speak of home groups, but letters published by others in the magazine after 1946 gradually begin to refer to "home groups." Sometime in the 1940s the idea of meetings morphed into "groups" which morphed again into "home groups." The Grapevine magazine seems to have the driving force behind this transformation, and continues, to this day, to be the bastion of the idea of home groups. Marty Mann was one of the editors of the Grapevine in the 1940s, prior to her involve- ment in the National Council on Alcoholism. Marty went to her first meeting in 1939, held in a fancy East Side apartment in Sutton Place, Manhattan. Bill Wilson selected that meeting for Marty, apparently to impress Mrs. Mann with the refinement of the attendees. If you type "home group" on the Search feature of this site, you'll notice that "home group" is almost always cited as "my home group." It's become almost iconic to many in the Fellowship. We often hear members say at meetings that they use their home group as their Higher Power, although, speaking personally, I've never prayed to my home group. john lee pittsburgh "take the Steps...you'll be contacted" Chris wrote: Hi All, Unquestionably, Bill was a very busy man after he settled at Stepping Stones (which I just visited for their annual picnic and recommend to all History Lovers). Does anyone know if he actually had a home group up in Westchester, or perhaps he made the trip down to the City for meetings or maybe his commitments just made it unfeasible for him to join one particular group. In curiosity, Chris --------------------------------- Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4363. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Did Rowland H. remain sober till he died? From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/6/2007 3:51:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There is a factual error in one of the state- ments which Rich Dubiel made on page 62 of his book on the Immanuel Movement and Jacoby Club. Dubiel says: "Hazard graduated from the Taft School in Waterbury, Connecticut, and Yale University (1903) with a B.A. degree." The Taft School [use the upper case in The] is in Watertown, not Waterbury: located at 110 Woodbury Road, Watertown, Connecticut 06795 See http://www.taftschool.org/ Waterbury is in New Haven County, Connecticut, about twenty miles north of the city of New Haven. Watertown is a smaller place, about five miles from Waterbury, but located across the county line in Litchfield County, Connecticut. Waterbury's main claim to fame is that I was born there and a Hickox forbearer was among the original settlers. We bought property in Watertown in 1678 and have been there since. On page 63, Rich Dubiel says: "In 1919 [Rowland Hazard] effected a plan originally formulated by his father and uncle and formed the Allied Chemical and Dye Company. By 1920 he was a director and so remained throughout his career." I worked for Allied mid-60s. My under- standing of its origin is that it consisted initially of German holdings, National Aniline in particular, seized when the U.S. entered WW I. I do not know this to be a fact but it is what I heard when working for Allied. This factoid, if true, may or may not interest the historians. I have read that the Hazards usually went to Brown, but Rowland wanted to go to Yale, his mother's family's school. Taft was considered a prep for Yale. Perhaps this is how he ended up there. Tommy in Baton Rouge, Taft '57 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4364. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: scrapple and the Alcoholic Squadron From: John Lee . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/6/2007 3:26:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Horn & Hardart was an automat chain out of Philadelphia, best known for its incredibly poor version of scrapple. Its best known location was the one Ken describes at E. 14th near Union Square. I don't believe that location had anything to do with early AA. Jim Burwell, one of the three Honor Dealers, would have been the early AA expert on scrapple. Stewarts was in Sheridan Square, in the heart of the West Village. Stewarts was a well known automat, open 24 hours, which attracted crowds of intellectuals, actors, writers and general characters. I brought up the name of the cafe- teria a few months ago, in an attempt to paint some historical context to the early years of the Bill Wilson Movement. Stewarts was a hotbed of late night New York intellectual life, attracting, among others, the startup staff of the Partisan Review in 1935 and 1936, the exact years when the Alcoholic Squad was breaking away from the Oxford Group. At adjoin ing tables, the early members of what became AA would have been grousing about the overbearing "churchies" of the Oxford Group while the Commie editors of the Partisan Review were deploring religion as the "opiate of the people". Two groups of zealots, at the same time and location, with two entirely different viewpoints on Higher Power. AA History shouldn't be just a collection of "facts," but a snapshot that tells a story. john lee pittsburgh "help others, don't get caught" - - - - From: "hartsell" (hartsell at etex.net) Subject: Re: Stewart's Cafeteria and the Alcoholic Squadron I lived in Little Italy, just off Houston in '65, was tending bar in a place on Houston called the QUEEWEE and believe I was in the Automat you describe. sherry - - - - Ken WENTZ wrote: Hi History lovers, regarding the location of Stewarts cafateria, as a child in the early 60's my father, a fireman in NY used to take me to the Horn & Hardart Cafe at E. 14th St. between 3rd & 4th Avenues. It had an automat and was very old at that time (1965). Could this be the "cafeteria" they went to? Horn & Hardart was a big food corporation. Did they buy Stewarts & re-name it? It's certainly a lot closer to Calvary Mission. There was a White Rose Saloon next to the Cafeteria on E 14th if that's any help. ........... love this site Sober Ken Clearwater IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4365. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: list of all known early AA pamphlets and can openers From: DudleyDobinson@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/7/2007 5:28:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi, I have a number of the booklets already mentioned and have a couple of others that might be of interest. 1. "MATT TALBOT and ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS" An Analysis of a man and the Program by a Member of Alcoholics Anonymous. Copyright 1948 Catholic information Society of New York. This is a Forty page booklet. The first Twenty being devoted to his life. the balance how the program relates to his recovery. 2."A Priest Looks at Alcoholics Anonymous" by An Alcoholics Anonymous. Copyright 1947 by The Missionary Society of St. Paul the Apostle in The State of New York. This is a Thirty-two page booklet with Four chapters. Chapter 1. "Spiritual Not A Religious Program" Chapter 2. "Medicine's Contribution" Chapter 3. "AA Experience Builds Transmission Line" Chapter 4. "The A.A. Fellowship" These are followed by an Appendix, The Just for Today messages (Two pages plus) and a Don't Quit message with a contact address Inter-Group Association of AA 194 East 75th St. New York 21 Telephone BUtterfield 8-9643. 3. I also have a Fifteen page booklet "Hope for Alcoholics" by Dr. Julian Lake, First Presbyterian Church Winston-Salem, North Carolina. I can't date this except that I know that he was minister from 1949 till 1962 in Winston-Salem. 4. A Sixteen page booklet "A Way of Life" compiled by Five Points Group Birmingham, Alabama, in 1945, published in Birmingham with no print date. Of interest it has Forty test questions.  5."Victory over Defeat" A 56 page booklet. Contents - An Address by a member to Men's Club of the Flossmoor Community Church Ill 3/12/1944. An analysis of Step No. Three (undated). A Scrap Book of Leslie E. Salter dated 3/15/1944 (This includes the Just For Today" poem by Samuel Wilberforce) and a list of suggested "reading list." The Three copies of the AA 1943 copyright I have, have different beginnings and endings. These have a Box 459 address. The December 1941 printing of The Houston Plain Dealer articles has PO Box 658 Church Street. These are all hard copies. I can scan if anyone wants a copy. In fellowship - Dudley Dobinson from the Emerald Isles IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4366. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Difference between sanitariums and asylums in the 1930s? From: pvttimt@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/7/2007 10:14:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: pvttimt@aol.com (pvttimt at aol.com) There is a wonderful book, called "Slaying the Dragon," by William L. White. It covers a lot of the history of recovery methods .... When I read it I was surprised at the variety and extent of ways that were tried to help people recover. During my tenure in AA I have usually only heard about the Oxford Group and the Washingtonians. - - - - From the moderator, Glenn C. (South Bend) Bill White's "slaying the Dragon" is the classic work in this field. You can read about the Inebriate Asylum Movement, the Keeley Cure, Inebriate Farms and Inebriate Colonies, the Water Cure, Convulsive Therapies, alcoholism treatment in "state hospitals," and learn about all the other terms that were used in talking about alcoholism treatment at different points in history. William L. White, "Slaying the Dragon: The History of Addiction Treatment and Recovery in America" (Chestnut Health Systems, 2002). Can be ordered directly from Chestnut Health Systems: http://www.chestnut.org/LI/bookstore/Blurbs/Books/A104-Dragon.html The Table of Contents gives you the long list of topics that Bill White covers in his book: http://www.chestnut.org/LI/bookstore/Blurbs/Books/dragontc.html - - - - From: Sober186@aol.com (Sober186 at aol.com) Asylum, as Bill used it, most likely referred to an insane asylum, or hospital specializing in the treatment of persons with mental illness. Although there were also orphan asylums etc. The word sanitarium was used to indicate a health resort. Love and Serve Jim in Cent Oh. - - - - From: Lynn Sawyer (sawyer7952 at yahoo.com) Dear Terry, I'm just another alcoholic, certainly no A.A. historian, but here's the dictionary definitions: ASYLUM: Institution for maintainance and care of mentally ill, orphans, or other persons requiring specialized assistance. SANITORIUM/SANITARIUM: Institution for the preservation or recovery of health, esp. for convalescence; health resort. Lynn S., an alcoholic hailing from the Traditional Group, Carmichael, Northern California. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4367. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Did Bill W. have a home group? From: Tom White . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/7/2007 5:03:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Chris: I was a member of the Chappaqua group (next town to Katonah, where Bill lived) from 1959, when I came in, until 1963, when I moved upstate. Bill was considered an "honorary member," but I don't recall that he came much, if ever, to any of our group's three meetings a week. I think at this stage it was hard for him to attend meetings. The fuss and lionization problem, I'd guess. I became a regular in this same period at a Friday night discussion meeting at the Bedford Hills group that met in a church there; Bill never came to that either. Stepping Stones I think straddles the line between the two villages. Tom W. Odessa, TX _______________________________ On Jun 7, 2007, at 12:42 PM, Chris wrote: > Hi All, > > Unquestionably, Bill was a very busy man after > he settled at Stepping Stones (which I just > visited for their annual picnic and recommend > to all History Lovers). > > Does anyone know if he actually had a home > group up in Westchester, or perhaps he made > the trip down to the City for meetings or > maybe his commitments just made it unfeasible > for him to join one particular group. > > In curiosity, > > Chris IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4368. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: Did Bill W. have a home group? From: Sally Brown . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/9/2007 7:46:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Sally Brown and Gerry D. - - - - From: "Sally Brown" (rev.sally at worldnet.att.net) This is a "shaggy-dog" response to Chris's original question about the origin of the home group idea. I came to AA and sobriety in Aug 1977, in Arlington, Virginia. My sponsor, who had been sober 25 years by then (she was actually from Bronxville, New York, originally), suggested that in addition to the steps, I have a home meeting, plus one step meeting/wk, and one speaker mtg/wk. If I wanted to add other meetings, that was fine. She never mentioned 90 mtgs in 90 days, nor did anyone else except for one lady who said some people liked to do 60 mtgs in 60 days. Also, nobody said we had to do the steps in order. In fact, my sponsor just laughed and said the order was arrived at by men after the fact, anyway. Partly the arrangement was from their experience, of course, but they also imposed a logical, linear order that appealed to their natures. Women tend to have much more circular reasoning. and to jump around the steps. (In some religious circles, this common male/female difference is known as Jacob's Ladder and Sarah's Circle.) Personally, I did come to see that Step 4 needed to precede Step 5, and that both were an asset in tackling Steps 6-7-8-9. The step mtg where I got sober was already my home mtg, so that was a two-fer. I have always appreciated my sponsor's observation that no sponsor ever knows everything, and it's advantageous to learn as well from other people's experiences with the steps. That has certainly been true for me, and is what I pass on to my sponsees. In the SF Bay Area, however, it seems to be the custom, and expectation, these days for sponsors to function as the sole source of wisdom in "taking their sponsees through the steps." I rarely hear step meetings mentioned, although we now have a few sprinkled around. In fact, I founded one many years ago so that we would have more than one choice at that time. Nor have I heard others recommending a home meeting and speaker meetings. I'm curious about the patterns in other parts of the country, and their history. One of the great contributions of AAHistoryLovers is the constant reminder of how our beloved fellowship continues to evolve idiosyncratically within the guidelines of the Traditions. Local issues seem to arise when we think "my way or the highway." Yet somehow we stumble through without bringing the world to an end. End of soapbox! Shalom - Sally ***************************************** Rev Sally Brown, Board Certified Chaplain, United Church of Christ 1470 Sand Hill Rd #309, Palo Alto, California 94304. Phone/Fax: 650 325 5258 rev.sally@att.net (rev.sally at att.net) Coauthor with David R Brown: A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann: The First Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous http://www.sallyanddavidbrown.com ***************************************** FROM GERRY D. IN IRELAND: "gerry d" (frankaaaa2006 at yahoo.co.uk) Having a home group or as we call it here an anchor group has been in Ireland since I can remember. A lot of people call whatever group they go to their home group but we can only have one home group as only the group can make decisions at a group conscience. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4369. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Swedish ivy clippings from Dr Bob''s house? From: Gary Becktell . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/7/2007 7:24:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Gary Becktell (and Cindy Miller): Here is a handout that I got with my Swedish Ivy cutting. I now have several in my home and give out starts whenever I can. PASS IT ON This Swedish Ivy start came from a plant that was given to Bill Wilson before he died. When he passed on, Lois took the plant home. A start was given to a man named Marty. He in turn gave a start to a woman named Michael Manning-Evans. Michael was one of the speakers at the 1997 Capital Jamboree in Olympia. She brought a start for each one of the board members. In telling her story she indicated that at first she kept her start to herself and it grew spindly and never branched out. After she began taking starts from the plant and passing them on to others it began to flourish and branch out, just as we do as we grow in the program. When your plant is ready to pinch, pass it on so it can grow. Easy does it! rrr ************************************ From: Cindy Miller (cm53 at earthlink.net) I got mine from the Seattle intergroup at the Archives Workshop in 2000 .... (and now about 50 other people have it!) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4370. . . . . . . . . . . . Need help to find the source From: Janet . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/11/2007 11:11:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I'm looking for the name of the book, the name of the publisher, and the name of the original author, for a posting from another AA group. The post was titled "It Ain't In The Book" and listed what we often hear at meetings and what the BB has to say about it. It is lengthly, and I would be glad to post it here if anyone wants me to. Here is an example: "Remember your last drunk" Page 24, Paragraph 2: "We are unable, at times, to bring into our consciousness with sufficient force the memory of the suffering and humiliation of even a week or a month ago. We are without defense against the first drink." I am on the newsletter committee for my district and we would like to include a monthly article. We need permission from both the originator of this piece, and the publisher to reprint so that we don't violate copyright laws. Thanks, Janet IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4371. . . . . . . . . . . . Directions to PA History & Archives Gathering June 23, 2007 From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/11/2007 11:19:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The Fourth History & Archives Gathering in Central Pennsylvania will be held Saturday June 23, 2007 at St Cecilia's Social Hall, 750 State Drive, Lebanon, Pennsylvania, same location as last year. E-mail histandarch@comcast.net for additional information. These are the directions for getting there as copied from the announcement Jared L. sent out last year. DIRECTIONS: From Pennsylvania Turnpike exit at Route 72 (Lancaster-Lebanon Exit), take Route 72 North into Lebanon (about 6 miles plus). In Lebanon turn right on Route 422 East at traffic light. Continue to Lincoln Avenue (about half a mile or less). Turn right on Lincoln to Y in road where you take the left fork onto State Drive. St Cecilia's Parish Hall is on the left about a quarter-mile up. From Lancaster take Route 72 (Manheim Pike) North to Lebanon and then as above. From the Northwest, take Route 322 East to I-81 North just outside of Harrisburg. Take I-81 N to Route 934 and go south on Route 934 (away from Fort Indiantown Gap) a short distance to Route 22. Take Route 22 East to Route 72 South. Follow Route 72 South through center of Lebanon to Route 422 East and then as above. From the North on I-81 Exit at Route 72 South through Lebanon to 422 East and then as above. From the East on Route 78 Exit at Route 343. Follow Route 343 (a couple of miles) into Lebanon (N. 7th Street). Turn left on Maple Street. Go about three-fifths of a mile to Lincoln Avenue. Turn right on Lincoln to Y in road and continue left on State Drive as above. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4372. . . . . . . . . . . . Moderator out of town June 13-26, 2007 From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/12/2007 6:36:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Glenn C. will be off on a trip to Pennsylvania, leaving June 13th and returning June 26th.* Fiona D., County Mayo, Ireland fionadodd@eircom.net (fionadodd at eircom.net) will be doing all the moderating during that time. Fiona has been doing a variety of jobs on the AAHistoryLovers since almost the very beginning, including the mammoth task of transferring in the old messages from the AAHistoryBuffs in June and July of 2002. ______________________________ *Including attending the History & Archives Gathering in Lebanon, Pennsylvania, on Saturday, June 23rd. http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/4371 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4373. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Need help to find the source From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/12/2007 7:35:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From the Primary Purpose website in Dallas, Texas: http://www.aaprimarypurpose.org/notinbook.htm I do not believe it is a book but something from the web site mentioned above. - - - - The Primary Purpose website link was also sent in by: "Mark W." (allday_31419 at yahoo.com) John Lee (johnlawlee at yahoo.com) "momaria33772" (jhoffma6 at tampabay.rr.com) - - - - Originally from Janet (octoberbabye at yahoo.com): > I'm looking for the name of the book, the > name of the publisher, and the name of the > original author, for a posting from another > AA group. > > The post was titled "It Ain't In The Book" > and listed what we often hear at meetings > and what the BB has to say about it. > > It is lengthly, and I would be glad to post > it here if anyone wants me to. Here is an > example: > > "Remember your last drunk" > > Page 24, Paragraph 2: "We are unable, at > times, to bring into our consciousness > with sufficient force the memory of the > suffering and humiliation of even a week > or a month ago. We are without defense > against the first drink." > > I am on the newsletter committee for my > district and we would like to include a > monthly article. We need permission from > both the originator of this piece, and the > publisher to reprint so that we don't > violate copyright laws. > > Thanks, Janet > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4374. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Did Bill W. have a home group? From: chris mahl . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/10/2007 7:38:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Chris: I got sober in Massachusetts in 1986, moved to New Jersey and then New York City in 1988. I got a sponsor Bill B (he remained my sponsor until his death 4 years ago) in New York City in 1988. Bill B got sober in December 1958 in New York City and had a huge impact on AA in the Upper East Side of New York City. Bill and I visited the Manhattan Group from time to time, Bill B's original home group. Bill B told me stories of Bill W being a regular there and participating. He never said it was his home group. Yet, his description did make it feel like it was an important group to Bill W. I also believe it was among, if not the first, AA group in New York City. Our archivist at GSP could provide more, i'm sure. Chris -- Chris Mahl 10 Ventures Rightmedia Exchange www.rightmedia.com PDA 7186123281 Fax 18668230272 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4375. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: home groups (in Mexico) From: Angela Corelis . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/11/2007 2:45:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Here in Puerto Vallarta, Mexico, being out of the US, we are one group (easier bookeeping), the Serenity Group with 18 meetings: each week 2 BB study, 2 Step/tradition ( usually alternate step one week, tradition the next), 2 As Bill Sees It, 2 Living Sober, 2 Daily Reflection, the above are scheduled one at 9 am, the other 6:30 pm meeting and 2 speaker meetings -- both evening meetings. The other topic/discussion are Came to believe, Grapevine, a Men´s meeting, a Women´s step meeting and a Gay (GLBT) meeting. So, if the PV Serenity Group is one´s home group...you get it all... This system has worked for 21 years that I am aware of and the Serenity group was established and has held continous meetings since 1965 in the PV area. Angela C Come visit us January 25, 26, 27,2008 for the 5th Annual Sobriety Under the Sun AAConvention ...see www.aapvconvention.com for more info and registration. After convention a NO Booze Cruise is available (not included in convention fees) to Quimixto, a secluded beach village only accesible by boat for a day of sober fun, swimming, snorkling, hiking, horseback riding and an open AA meeting on the beach with breakfast and lunch- IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4376. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Did Bill W. have a home group? From: Peter Tippett . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/12/2007 1:00:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There are a lot of things in A.A. which have become traditional which are not part of our Traditions and seem to have no real "foundation", they just sort of evolved. Going way, way back to before we were officially Alcoholics Anonymous, we met in people's homes, and sometimes they weren't even the homes of A.A.'s, like the Williams ... members of the Oxford Group who took a particular interest in us and were willing to help however they could. I believe, then, the term "Home Group" just sort of evolved and somewhere along the line it became customary to call the group you frequented the most and were a participant in for the common welfare of the group, your "Home Group" no matter where it met as we soon outgrew people's living rooms. Not a direct answer to your question, but I can imagine as time went on Bill just considered A.A. as a whole his "Home Group" and felt as comfortable in any one group as another. Pete T. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4377. . . . . . . . . . . . Some Notes on the AA Original Manuscript Up for Auction From: schaberg43 . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/12/2007 6:26:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I went down to Sotheby's today to take a long look at the Original Manuscript copy that they will be auctioning off on Thursday, June 21st. This is the OM copy where Hank, Ruth, Bill, and others recorded ALL of the suggestions that they received for edits before actually printing the first edition of the Big Book. It is an important historical document on many levels, but most importantly, I think, because it shows who made some of the suggestions and also allows you to see the suggestions that our founders did NOT take when editing the Big Book. NOTE: I was privileged with a private viewing of this copy of the Original Manuscript because I had assisted the cataloger in his write up of the history of the Original Manuscript printings – which, with the 13 photos, takes up 11½ pages of the catalog. While I had only 20 minutes to look at this piece when it was first auctioned off in June of 2004, this time Sotheby's allowed me over two hours to examine this important copy and it was a truly amazing two hours! What a piece of AA history! Just a couple of highlights. The original front cover of this copy is stamped in black ink: "LOANED COPY" – something I have heard about but never seen before. {Note: this copy is missing the original back cover along with the two pages of "Index" usually found in these copies.) The reverse side (verso) of the title page has a long handwritten note on it (see photo in lower left on page 224 of the Sotheby's catalog). This note continues onto the verso of another loose piece of paper that is also included here (but not pictured in the catalog). This is the manuscript copy of four paragraphs that were inserted into "Bill's Story." The paragraphs in question are the first four complete paragraphs found on page 12 of our basic text – starting with "Despite…" and ending with "…would!" These additions – certainly the largest edit to the Big Book immediately before it was published – include some extremely important AA precepts, not least of which is the italicized quote: "Why don't you choose your own conception of God?" This manuscript section is not in Bill's hand. I suspect (especially given the free use of abbreviations) that it was written there by Ruth Hock – either transcribed from Bill's notes or taken down from dictation. Once again, I noticed that the name of Doctor Howard was just about everywhere in the manuscript. He sure had a LOT to say about edits to our book. In addition, two other doctors I have never before heard referenced as contributors of Big Book suggestions list (Dr. Witherspoon & Dr. Bevoise [sp?]) are also found here. The Manuscript is littered with several comments that seem to be rather off-handed. One noted that something was "too groupy," i.e. Oxford Groupy. But, my favorite was opposite the first three paragraphs currently found on page 80 of the Big Book about making amends: "Dangerous for the NUTS – some could go higher than a kite." And there is some real history here. On the pages containing the dropped story "Ace Full – Seven – Eleven," Bill has written the author's name (something which has not been, to my knowledge, so far discovered) and includes a short comment on why the story has been dropped. (I will refrain from sharing that information here since it rightly belongs to the owner of this copy of the Original Manuscript.) Finally, it is interesting to note that none of the suggested changes to Dr. Bob's story were taken. Someone – in an effort to cut the text – had advised deleting three paragraphs and Dr. Howard wanted the last line of his story to read: "Your FAITH will never let you down!" Bob, obviously, thought the story should remain `as is.' If you are anywhere within driving distance of New York City, I would advise you to make a trip there this coming Friday, June 15th through Wednesday, June 20th to see this remarkable piece of our history and to "put your hands on the Book." It was a very moving experience for both me and my sponsor who joined me for this trip! Old Bill IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4378. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: home groups (in Stockholm, Sweden) From: cfhogberg . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/13/2007 6:17:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dear all, Thank you for posting information in regards to The Serenity Group in Mexico. Now we know that we have a "sister group" in Mexico!... :-) We, The Serenity Group of Stockholm, Sweden meet 5 times per week. The group has been going since 1989 and now holds over 100 regular members. It is one of the largest groups in the region. We believe us to be hopefully, what is sometimes referred to as "A pocket of enthusiasm". We have 1 bookstudy meeting per week, 1 participation meeting, 2 speakers´ meetings and also one men´s stag and womens meeting per week. We do organize AA-conventions; The annual Stockholm "AA-Serenity Group Springtime Speakers´ Convention" held usually last weekend of may. Every year we have a different topic, this year, The 5th annual AA- Serenity Group Springtime Speakers´ Convention we had "Love with no conditions" one of Chuck C´s trademark themes. We invite a lot of speakers from The Pacific Group and from California (we are, sort of sister affiliate group, offspring to PG). For more info, please, check out: www.sinnesrogruppen.se (an updated English version is under way). We do try focus on service and also taking a lot of actions, especially in regards to involving the newcomers in all our sober activities, such as; Mid-December Christmas convention and banquette, Midsummer sober Barbeque Party, New Year´s eve sober dinner party, Monthly Serenity Group dinners and sober Pic-nic´s and dances. We are very much focused on "All inclusive" activities, thus making the newcomer feel "apart of" and hopefully have him stay until the miracle happens! We do hope to have some of you all visit us for the annual springtime or, annual winter convention - we will bring fellowshipping to a new high together with all of you! With love, Fredrik H. Committee Chair Person for The Annual Stockholm Springtime AA- Serenity Group Speakers´ Convention 2007 --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Angela Corelis wrote: > > Here in Puerto Vallarta, Mexico, being out of > the US, we are one group (easier bookeeping), > the Serenity Group with 18 meetings: each week > 2 BB study, 2 Step/tradition ( usually alternate > step one week, tradition the next), 2 As Bill > Sees It, 2 Living Sober, 2 Daily Reflection, > the above are scheduled one at 9 am, the other > 6:30 pm meeting and 2 speaker meetings -- both > evening meetings. The other topic/discussion > are Came to believe, Grapevine, a Men´s > meeting, a Women´s step meeting and a Gay > (GLBT) meeting. > > So, if the PV Serenity Group is one´s home > group...you get it all... > > This system has worked for 21 years that I am > aware of and the Serenity group was established > and has held continous meetings since 1965 in > the PV area. > > Angela C > > Come visit us January 25, 26, 27,2008 for the > 5th Annual Sobriety Under the Sun AAConvention > ...see www.aapvconvention.com for more info > and registration. > > After convention a NO Booze Cruise is available > (not included in convention fees) to Quimixto, > a secluded beach village only accesible by boat > for a day of sober fun, swimming, snorkling, > hiking, horseback riding and an open AA meeting > on the beach with breakfast and lunch- > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4379. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Need help to find the source From: oys.jerry5672 . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/13/2007 11:49:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Janet" wrote: > > I'm looking for the name of the book, the > name of the publisher, and the name of the > original author, for a posting from another > AA group. > > The post was titled "It Ain't In The Book" > and listed what we often hear at meetings > and what the BB has to say about it. > > It is lengthly, and I would be glad to post > it here if anyone wants me to. Here is an > example: > > "Remember your last drunk" > > Page 24, Paragraph 2: "We are unable, at > times, to bring into our consciousness > with sufficient force the memory of the > suffering and humiliation of even a week > or a month ago. We are without defense > against the first drink." > > I am on the newsletter committee for my > district and we would like to include a > monthly article. We need permission from > both the originator of this piece, and the > publisher to reprint so that we don't > violate copyright laws. > > Thanks, Janet > Janet I believe the title of the book you are looking for is (It's So Simple...It Just Ain't Easy. The Author is Bob Cushman and the Publisher is Partners Institute Cambridge Minnesota published in 1994. Jerry Oys Southern MN. Area 36 Archivist IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4380. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: Did Bill W. have a home group? From: Doug B. . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/14/2007 3:56:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I met a man named Don D. up at the Wilson House in 1993 who used to attend all of the Bill W. day celebrations there on the 1st Sunday in June. He knew Bill and said that Bill would attend a meeting in Manchester and just sit back and be "one of the boys". He said that Bill once told him that at this meeting he could really be himself. He wasnt expected to speak and could just listen. Was this his home group? Who knows. I would suggest that wherever he voted on things would be his home group. Do I think he voted on group business? I doubt it. He would probably think that others would be swayed to vote like him of he did and would refrain. Doug B. Tom White wrote: > > Chris: > > I was a member of the Chappaqua group (next > town to Katonah, where Bill lived) from 1959, > when I came in, until 1963, when I moved > upstate. Bill was considered an "honorary > member," but I don't recall that he came > much, if ever, to any of our group's three > meetings a week. I think at this stage it was > hard for him to attend meetings. The fuss and > lionization problem, I'd guess. I became a > regular in this same period at a Friday night > discussion meeting at the Bedford Hills group > that met in a church there; Bill never came > to that either. Stepping Stones I think > straddles the line between the two villages. > > Tom W. Odessa, TX > > ______________________________ > > On Jun 7, 2007, at 12:42 PM, Chris wrote: > > > Hi All, > > > > Unquestionably, Bill was a very busy man after > > he settled at Stepping Stones (which I just > > visited for their annual picnic and recommend > > to all History Lovers). > > > > Does anyone know if he actually had a home > > group up in Westchester, or perhaps he made > > the trip down to the City for meetings or > > maybe his commitments just made it unfeasible > > for him to join one particular group. > > > > In curiosity, > > > > Chris > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4381. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Some Notes on the AA Original Manuscript Up for Auction From: Doug B. . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/14/2007 4:12:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Bill, Thanks for your observations...my spine was tingling! I found the following Dr's that might fit your question: Dr James Wainwright Howard from Montclair, NJ graduated P&S in 1919 Dr Charles Russell Witherspoon from Rochester, NY graduated Uof P in 1898 No mention of a Dr. Bevoise [any spelling]) in NY, NJ or CT in 1936 Doug B. schaberg43 wrote: > I went down to Sotheby's today to take a long look at the Original > Manuscript copy that they will be auctioning off on Thursday, June > 21st. This is the OM copy where Hank, Ruth, Bill, and others > recorded ALL of the suggestions that they received for edits before > actually printing the first edition of the Big Book. It is an > important historical document on many levels, but most importantly, > I think, because it shows who made some of the suggestions and also > allows you to see the suggestions that our founders did NOT take > when editing the Big Book. > > NOTE: I was privileged with a private viewing of this copy of the > Original Manuscript because I had assisted the cataloger in his > write up of the history of the Original Manuscript printings – > which, with the 13 photos, takes up 11½ pages of the catalog. While > I had only 20 minutes to look at this piece when it was first > auctioned off in June of 2004, this time Sotheby's allowed me over > two hours to examine this important copy and it was a truly amazing > two hours! What a piece of AA history! > > Just a couple of highlights. > > The original front cover of this copy is stamped in black > ink: "LOANED COPY" – something I have heard about but never seen > before. {Note: this copy is missing the original back cover along > with the two pages of "Index" usually found in these copies.) > > The reverse side (verso) of the title page has a long handwritten > note on it (see photo in lower left on page 224 of the Sotheby's > catalog). This note continues onto the verso of another loose piece > of paper that is also included here (but not pictured in the > catalog). > > This is the manuscript copy of four paragraphs that were inserted > into "Bill's Story." The paragraphs in question are the first four > complete paragraphs found on page 12 of our basic text – starting > with "Despite…" and ending with "…would!" These additions – > certainly the largest edit to the Big Book immediately before it was > published – include some extremely important AA precepts, not least > of which is the italicized quote: "Why don't you choose your own > conception of God?" > > This manuscript section is not in Bill's hand. I suspect (especially > given the free use of abbreviations) that it was written there by > Ruth Hock – either transcribed from Bill's notes or taken down from > dictation. > > Once again, I noticed that the name of Doctor Howard was just about > everywhere in the manuscript. He sure had a LOT to say about edits > to our book. In addition, two other doctors I have never before > heard referenced as contributors of Big Book suggestions list (Dr. > Witherspoon & Dr. Bevoise [sp?]) are also found here. > > The Manuscript is littered with several comments that seem to be > rather off-handed. One noted that something was "too groupy," i.e. > Oxford Groupy. But, my favorite was opposite the first three > paragraphs currently found on page 80 of the Big Book about making > amends: "Dangerous for the NUTS – some could go higher than a kite." > > And there is some real history here. On the pages containing the > dropped story "Ace Full – Seven – Eleven," Bill has written the > author's name (something which has not been, to my knowledge, so far > discovered) and includes a short comment on why the story has been > dropped. (I will refrain from sharing that information here since it > rightly belongs to the owner of this copy of the Original > Manuscript.) > > Finally, it is interesting to note that none of the suggested > changes to Dr. Bob's story were taken. Someone – in an effort to cut > the text – had advised deleting three paragraphs and Dr. Howard > wanted the last line of his story to read: "Your FAITH will never > let you down!" Bob, obviously, thought the story should remain `as > is.' > > If you are anywhere within driving distance of New York City, I > would advise you to make a trip there this coming Friday, June 15th > through Wednesday, June 20th to see this remarkable piece of our > history and to "put your hands on the Book." It was a very moving > experience for both me and my sponsor who joined me for this trip! > > Old Bill > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4382. . . . . . . . . . . . "Dr Bevoise" From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/15/2007 11:13:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I suggest it is not "Dr. Bevoise" but "Debevoise" -- probably the lawyer Eli Whitney Debevoise Sr (1899-1990). -- Jared Lobdell IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4383. . . . . . . . . . . . The BB Manuscript at Sotheby''s From: Fiona Dodd . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/19/2007 3:37:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A friend, who is a noted AA historian viewed the manuscript at Sothebys and kindly agreed to share her experience and views on the manuscript with the AAHL group. Fiona We got to Sotheby's on Sunday at 1PM just minutes before it opened. I wanted to be the first to see the manuscript as I thought there could be a crowd interested in it and didn't want to wait. It's really amazing how accessible the auction items are. As last time, we asked to see the manuscript, and it was handed to us to examine for as long as we wanted. Only two other people, both together, were there to see it after us. ( We had a great time examining other fascinating items in the group for auction Thursday, e.g. several letters from Geo. Washington, Hemingway, Jefferson, etc.) We took our time looking through the manuscript, and invited the other guys to look at it with us. It was fun talking to them about the manuscript and AA in general. The last time (first time) this document was put up for auction the catalogue billed it as the "printer's copy". I had my doubts, in fact, I knew it couldn't be. Judit Santon, who was the AA archivist at the time and who was with me, concurred. Neither of us really knew what were looking at regarding where it fell in the progression to the final manuscript and the book itself. An important document, certainly, but not the definitive manuscript, the one that led directly to the first edition of the Big Book. At that time, I made my concerns known. This time the catalogue rightly describes the document as a "working copy" which is what it is. I asked one of the curators about it and he said that now they know it is not the "printer's" copy. There is no way this could have been the copy to go to the printer. There are so many arrows, hard-to-dicipher crossouts and such that it's hard, if not impossible, to know how a printer could understand it. There exists, I hope, somewhere the definitive manuscript, but who knows where it is. There are many examples of sentences in this manuscript that never made it to the Big Book itself. For example, the Chapter Two in the manuscript, "There is a group of personal narratives. The clear-cut directions are given showing how an alcoholic may recover." ("alcoholic" is crossed out and "us" penciled over and "recover" changed to "recovered.") Interesting, but this sentence isn't in the BB. What is there on pg. 29 is -- "Further on, clear-cut directions are given showing how we recovered. These are followed by forty-three personal experiences." As far as the cover goes that is stamped "Loaned Copy", it's not really a "cover" in the usual sense. It is a "note" from Lois Wilson giving this document to "Barry" [Leach] Lois was an inveterate writer of notes and whatever on cardboard. The archives were full of these. She was a dedicated recycler. Never threw anything away if it could serve a future purpose. "Loaned Copy" may or may not be even associated with this document. It could pertain to something else that Lois had around and wrote on. There were many MS circulating around in those days, and they were not bound to my knowledge. This was not a "book" that was circulated. It was one of very many manuscripts handed out to anyone pretty much who would read it. What there wasn't was one manuscript that was loaned out. All this being said, it really is a moving experience to see this, that so many people in the early days worked on this, poured their minds and hearts and hope into it. And we get a chance to see it, look at it for as long as we can, turn the pages (in plastic). I am sad that document such as this, groundbreaking, to many minds spiritual, has been relegated to a good investment. Sotheby's has it listed at $900,000 - $1,200,000. It was sold for $500,000 last time; they thought they could get maybe $350,000. I hope that whoever buys it donates it to a place that will keep it safe and forever. But in the meantime, what keeps this document real and infuses it and renews it with spiritual energy are the people who honor and revere it, for whom the document has no value, just pricelessness. Eileen [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4384. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The BB Manuscript at Sotheby''s From: schaberg43 . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/20/2007 7:58:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII While I agree with Fiona's friend Eileen about how exciting it is to view this important piece of AA history, I must disagree with two items in her report. First, the cover that is stamped "LOANED COPY" does indeed have Lois' gift inscription on the back side but this is not just some piece of stray cardboard. It is an identical match to the card cover material that is used in my own copy of the Original Manuscript - which originally belonged to Jim Burwell. I took my copy down to Sotheby's and was allowed to compare them directly and the covers were identical in color and weight. Copies of the Original Manuscript were bound in a 'comb binding' that fit into the 22 small, rectangular holes that were punched down the left margin of each sheet. On a less important note, this copy was sold for a hammer price of $1,400,000 in June of 2004 - with the auction premium added this came out to a final sale price of $1,576,000. Old Bill --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Fiona Dodd" wrote: > > A friend, who is a noted AA historian viewed the manuscript at Sothebys and > kindly agreed to share her experience and views on the manuscript with the > AAHL group. > > Fiona > > > We got to Sotheby's on Sunday at 1PM just minutes before it opened. I wanted > to be the first to see the manuscript as I thought there could be a crowd > interested in it and didn't want to wait. > > It's really amazing how accessible the auction items are. As last time, we > asked to see the manuscript, and it was handed to us to examine for as long > as we wanted. Only two other people, both together, were there to see it > after us. ( We had a great time examining other fascinating items in the > group for auction Thursday, e.g. several letters from Geo. Washington, > Hemingway, Jefferson, etc.) We took our time looking through the manuscript, > and invited the other guys to look at it with us. It was fun talking to > them about the manuscript and AA in general. > > The last time (first time) this document was put up for auction the > catalogue billed it as the "printer's copy". I had my doubts, in fact, I > knew it couldn't be. Judit Santon, who was the AA archivist at the time and > who was with me, concurred. Neither of us really knew what were looking at > regarding where it fell in the progression to the final manuscript and the > book itself. An important document, certainly, but not the definitive > manuscript, the one that led directly to the first edition of the Big Book. > At that time, I made my concerns known. > > > > This time the catalogue rightly describes the document as a "working copy" > which is what it is. I asked one of the curators about it and he said that > now they know it is not the "printer's" copy. There is no way this could > have been the copy to go to the printer. There are so many arrows, > hard-to-dicipher crossouts and such that it's hard, if not impossible, to > know how a printer could understand it. There exists, I hope, somewhere the > definitive manuscript, but who knows where it is. There are many examples of > sentences in this manuscript that never made it to the Big Book itself. > > > > For example, the Chapter Two in the manuscript, "There is a group of > personal narratives. The clear-cut directions are given showing how an > alcoholic may recover." ("alcoholic" is crossed out and "us" penciled over > and "recover" changed to "recovered.") Interesting, but this sentence isn't > in the BB. What is there on pg. 29 is -- "Further on, clear-cut directions > are given showing how we recovered. These are followed by forty- three > personal experiences." > > > > As far as the cover goes that is stamped "Loaned Copy", it's not really a > "cover" in the usual sense. It is a "note" from Lois Wilson giving this > document to "Barry" [Leach] Lois was an inveterate writer of notes and > whatever on cardboard. The archives were full of these. She was a dedicated > recycler. Never threw anything away if it could serve a future purpose. > "Loaned Copy" may or may not be even associated with this document. It could > pertain to something else that Lois had around and wrote on. There were many > MS circulating around in those days, and they were not bound to my > knowledge. This was not a "book" that was circulated. It was one of very > many manuscripts handed out to anyone pretty much who would read it. What > there wasn't was one manuscript that was loaned out. > > > > All this being said, it really is a moving experience to see this, that so > many people in the early days worked on this, poured their minds and hearts > and hope into it. And we get a chance to see it, look at it for as long as > we can, turn the pages (in plastic). > > > I am sad that document such as this, groundbreaking, to many minds > spiritual, has been relegated to a good investment. Sotheby's has it listed > at $900,000 - $1,200,000. It was sold for $500,000 last time; they thought > they could get maybe $350,000. I hope that whoever buys it donates it to a > place that will keep it safe and forever. But in the meantime, what keeps > this document real and infuses it and renews it with spiritual energy are > the people who honor and revere it, for whom the document has no value, just > pricelessness. > > Eileen > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4385. . . . . . . . . . . . Nell Wing From: Phillip Waters . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/21/2007 7:38:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In the May issue of the Grapevine there is an interview with Nell Wing where she talks about AA getting started in Japan. (page 41) She mentions that over there they started with 13 steps. Does anyone know what those 13 steps were and how they differed from what we have today? Love in Service, Phillip IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4386. . . . . . . . . . . . AA Original Manuscript Sold From: schaberg43 . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/21/2007 3:50:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Well, it was an exciting (but quick) auction today when the AA Original Manuscript (containing all of the handwritten suggestions for changes to the text) sold at Sotheby's for a hammer price of $850,000 (with premiums, $992,000). When last auctioned in June of 2004, the same Manuscript sold for a hammer price of $1,4000,000 ($1,576,000 with premiums). The buyer has already launched a website for this magnificent new acquisition with a wealth of information and the promise of much more to come. See www.aaholygrail.com. Best, Old Bill IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4387. . . . . . . . . . . . "aaholygrail" From: Ernest Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/22/2007 4:29:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Might anyone know the provenance of this mss. from the time it left the hands of Barry L.? Thank you. ernie kurtz IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4388. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: "aaholygrail" From: ricktompkins . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/22/2007 11:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [ mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ernest Kurtz Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 3:29 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] "aaholygrail" Might anyone know the provenance of this mss. from the time it left the hands of Barry L.? Thank you. ernie kurtz Barry Leach's estate legally gave the inheritance to a nephew or grand-nephew from what I remember of the posting of three years ago. The question is exactly when Lois gave the "printer's draft" to Barry, after his failed effort with AAWS for writer's fees on Living Sober or after he collaborated on Lois' Story? He was her friend and no speculator... There's a hidden blessing in the 40% depreciation of this year's auction price-- if the poster 'Old Bill (is that you, Barefoot Bill?)' is correct, the preserved 180 pages in viewable scanned formats would be a great adventure. I wonder about Jim Burwell's edit copy notes, too. However possesses it these days, please never auction it, share it! Amusingly when I think of an 'aaholygrail' I think of a plain, old stoneware Horn & Hardart's coffee cup! Love and serenity to you all, Rick, Illinois [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4389. . . . . . . . . . . . Is Bill responsible for this quote? From: Matthugh Bennett . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/23/2007 1:18:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I was wondering if anyone could tell me if Bill was responsible for, "Pain is the touchstone for spiritual growth" and if not, then who is? --------------------------------- Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4390. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Is Bill responsible for this quote? From: Charles Knapp . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/23/2007 10:33:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello, You will find this quote in the last line of page 93 of the 12 X 12 Hope this helps Charles from California -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Matthugh Bennett Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2007 10:19 AM To: aahistorylovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Is Bill responsible for this quote? I was wondering if anyone could tell me if Bill was responsible for, "Pain is the touchstone for spiritual growth" and if not, then who is? --------------------------------- Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4391. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Is Bill responsible for this quote? From: Debi Ubernosky . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/24/2007 10:01:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII i googled this and all references i could find attribute it to bill wilson. ----- Original Message ----- From: Matthugh Bennett To: aahistorylovers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2007 12:18 PM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Is Bill responsible for this quote? I was wondering if anyone could tell me if Bill was responsible for, "Pain is the touchstone for spiritual growth" and if not, then who is? --------------------------------- Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4392. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Is Bill responsible for this quote? From: Gary Becktell . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/24/2007 11:33:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII While we are on this topic, it seems that I have mostly seen this phrase interpreted as meaning 'pain is required for spiritual growth'. Indeed, from the context in which Bill wrote it, that seems correct. Had I been sober when Bill was alive (I was not yet an alcoholic), I would have asked him what he really meant. Historically, we may never know. But a look in any dictionary or thesaurus tells a different story. The first definition is of an actual 'stone': A hard black stone, such as jasper or basalt, formerly used to test the quality of gold or silver by comparing the streak left on the stone by one of these metals with that of a standard alloy. Then it gets interesting: touch·stone (plural touch·stones) noun Definition: excellent example: a standard by which something is judged By extension, the metaphorical use of touchstone means any physical or intellectual measure by which the validity of a concept can be tested. An excellent quality or example that is used to test the excellence or genuineness of others: "the qualities of courage and vision that are the touchstones of leadership" Synonyms: criterion, benchmark, yardstick, hallmark, standard, acid test, litmus test. So I think what the phrase really means is that 'How we handle pain (in comparison to how we used to) is the test of our spiritual progress'. I have no idea if this will make it to the group but it does seem to be a question of historical significance. I am sure that it also has great spiritual significance for the readers of Bill's words. G ----- Original Message ----- From: Matthugh Bennett To: aahistorylovers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2007 11:18 AM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Is Bill responsible for this quote? I was wondering if anyone could tell me if Bill was responsible for, "Pain is the touchstone for spiritual growth" and if not, then who is? --------------------------------- Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.9.6/863 - Release Date: 6/23/2007 11:08 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4393. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Is Bill responsible for this quote? From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/24/2007 11:48:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I know of at least two major authors of the book Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions (12&12)- Bill Wilson and Thomas E. Powers. There also appears to be at least one minor author or someone with a great deal of input, Dr. Harry Tiebout. Any of these people may have authored this quote and unless specific evidence exists (e.g. personal correspondence using this phrase)true authorship would be uncertain or at the least stated "as attributed to..." > Hello, > > You will find this quote in the last line of page 93 > of the 12 X 12 > > Hope this helps > > Charles from California > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf > Of Matthugh Bennett > Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2007 10:19 AM > To: aahistorylovers@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Is Bill responsible for > this quote? > > I was wondering if anyone could tell me if Bill was > responsible for, "Pain > is the touchstone for spiritual growth" and if not, > then who is? > > > --------------------------------- > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places > on Yahoo! Travel. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4394. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Is Bill responsible for this quote ? From: whr122001 . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/24/2007 1:42:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The actual text states "Someone who knew what he was talking about once remarked that pain was the touchstone of all spiritual progress." As I read it, "someone" does not denote Bill or any of the other writers of the 12X12. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4395. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: Is Bill responsible for this quote ? From: Ernest Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/24/2007 8:15:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII And I was inclined to guess that the source was either Father Edward Dowling or Rev. Sam Shoemaker or Dr. Harry Tiebout, to each of whom Bill referred in other contexts as "someone who knew what he was talking about." That was my guesswork order of probability, but I was never able to get any further in that research. The phrase becomes more common in Bill's letters after 1957, as I believe an endnote in *Not-God* evidences. Wish I could be of more help. ernie kurtz whr122001 wrote: > > > The actual text states "Someone who knew what he was talking about once > remarked that pain was the touchstone of all spiritual progress." > As I read it, "someone" does not denote Bill or any of the other > writers of the 12X12. > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4396. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Is Bill responsible for this quote? From: Mike . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/24/2007 6:45:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I read a few years ago that Tom Powers was still alive. I also read that quite awhile ago he had started his own anonymous group. Anyone have any info? Thanks, Mike --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Mitchell K." wrote: > > I know of at least two major authors of the book > Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions (12&12)- Bill > Wilson and Thomas E. Powers. There also appears to be > at least one minor author or someone with a great deal > of input, Dr. Harry Tiebout. > > Any of these people may have authored this quote and > unless specific evidence exists (e.g. personal > correspondence using this phrase)true authorship would > be uncertain or at the least stated "as attributed > to..." > > > > > Hello, > > > > You will find this quote in the last line of page 93 > > of the 12 X 12 > > > > Hope this helps > > > > Charles from California > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf > > Of Matthugh Bennett > > Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2007 10:19 AM > > To: aahistorylovers@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Is Bill responsible for > > this quote? > > > > I was wondering if anyone could tell me if Bill was > > responsible for, "Pain > > is the touchstone for spiritual growth" and if not, > > then who is? > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places > > on Yahoo! Travel. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > > removed] > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4397. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: Is Bill responsible for this quote ? From: spebsqsa@att.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/25/2007 12:40:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Any attempt to Google a phrase from A.A. literature is bound to find many examples derived from that same A.A. literature. You need sources of older quotations. That is not a trivial task. Note that the 12&12 does not put the phrase in quotation marks. It is only paraphrasing the concept. This was in a 1919 edition of Bartlett's Familiar Quotations. It (a Beaumont and Fletcher play) is not necessarily the source but it is old enough that it could have been. At least it demonstrates that the concept did not originate with the A.A. use of it: http://www.bartleby.com/100/158.8.html NUMBER: 2227 AUTHOR: Beaumont and Fletcher QUOTATION: Calamity is manâs true touchstone. (see Note 1) ATTRIBUTION: Four Plays in One: The Triumph of Honour. Sc. 1. Note 1. Ignis aurum probat, miseria fortes viros ( Fire is the test of gold; adversity, of strong men). â”Seneca: De Providentia, v. 9. Mine is not a scholarly effort to identify one true source. I merely illustrate some difficulties. Don't look for an exact quotation if none is implied. Limit your search to texts that predate the A.A. use of a phrase or concept. A more qualified researcher than I might know what books were required reading at Bill's schools and what plays he saw and what lecturers he heard. -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: "whr122001" > > The actual text states "Someone who knew what he was talking about once > remarked that pain was the touchstone of all spiritual progress." > As I read it, "someone" does not denote Bill or any of the other > writers of the 12X12. > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4398. . . . . . . . . . . . AA at it''s best. From: Byron Bateman . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/25/2007 5:35:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have a question I'd like to post. Somewhere in the past I seem to remember reading about a question that was posed to Bill. It concerned him being asked about all the arguments/contention that could surround AA business meetings, or assemblies. He is supposed to have answered with; "That's A.A. at it's best." Does anyone know the validity of this statement, or if so, where I may find it? Byron Bateman [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4399. . . . . . . . . . . . Bartlett''s Famiar Quotations From: spebsqsa@att.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/25/2007 9:21:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Scores, perhaps hundreds, of phrases entered into common usage direct from the Big Book of of Alcoholics Anonymous and from other A.A. books and pamphlets. Yet I haven't found any of them in "Bartlett's Familiar Quotations" or other similar reference books tracing the origins of common quotations. I can't see that happening without a conscious decision by the editors of these collections, either on their own or at the request of Alcoholics Anonymous, to avoid sourcing any quotations to A.A. literature. Can anyone offer some insight on this topic? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4400. . . . . . . . . . . . The Jaywalker From: terry144434 . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/25/2007 9:41:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does anyone know why Bill used the Jaywalker? I fully understand the connection between relapsing, lack of thought and the links between the fellow having a queer sense of fun, but is there any particular why reason Bill Jaywalking? regards Terry IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4401. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The Jaywalker From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/25/2007 9:58:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Terry, I've sometimes thought the Jaywalker example was a bit far-fetched, as I've never heard of such a person except in the Big Book. I think Bill made it up just because it did sound so ridiculous, just as an alcoholic's drinking is when we look at it honestly. However, there are people who do dangerous things repeatedly, such as speeding, and keep it up even after serious trouble. Mel Barger Mel ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Mel Barger melb@accesstoledo.com ----- Original Message ----- From: terry144434 To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 9:41 AM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] The Jaywalker Does anyone know why Bill used the Jaywalker? I fully understand the connection between relapsing, lack of thought and the links between the fellow having a queer sense of fun, but is there any particular why reason Bill Jaywalking? regards Terry [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4402. . . . . . . . . . . . Stewart''s Cafeteria[s] From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/25/2007 2:54:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There's been a discussion of the location of Stewart's Cafeteria where some of the Alcoholic Squad (and others) used to meet. I know there was a Stewart's at Christopher Street, a Stewart's at 7th and 23rd, a Stewart's at Columbus Circle, and obviously there were others. I think 7th and 23rd was where Kitty R worked (a long-time North Jersey member who died fifty-plus years sober a few years ago). I would guess the Museum of NY City might have a record of all the Stewart's locations, but I'm not in a position to look them up. Perhaps someone in the city might be able to find the addresses at least for those south of Central Park. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4403. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The Jaywalker From: James Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/25/2007 2:45:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Terry wrote Does anyone know why Bill used the Jaywalker? I spent a couple of years in the McGill Medical Library collecting articles on or about AA. They had a storage area which contained periodicals published prior to 1930 and while looking around I came across a set of bound copies of the Brooklyn Medical Journal. I can't remember the issue but one of them contained a letter from a doctor complaining about a patient who had been struck by various vehicles while rushing about. My first thought was of the Jaywalker. I was unable to gain access later as they were moved to a dead storage area. Jim IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4404. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The Jaywalker From: Peter Tippett . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/25/2007 7:22:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Except maybe for "A man of thirty was doing a great deal of spree drinking", which as I understand it Bill took from a character in "The Common Sense of Drinking" by Richard Peabody, all the "characters" in the book are based on real people. I've always thought that the Jaywalker was metaphorically based on real people, too...all us alcoholics. When Bill wrote, "We, who have been through the wringer, have to admit if we substituted alcoholism for jay-walking, the illustration would fit exactly. However intelligent we may have been in other respects, where alcohol has been involved, we have been strangely insane. It’s strong language—but isn’t it true?", I think he meant the parable to fit all us "real alcoholics." terry144434 wrote: Does anyone know why Bill used the Jaywalker? I fully understand the connection between relapsing, lack of thought and the links between the fellow having a queer sense of fun, but is there any particular why reason Bill Jaywalking? regards Terry "Everywhere is within walking distance if you have the time." --------------------------------- Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4405. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: Is Bill responsible for this quote? From: Tom White . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/25/2007 10:22:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dear Mike: Tom Powers died a year or two ago at 93. His son, Thomas R. Powers, is, I understand,, now in charge of Tom's old entity, "East Ridge," in Hankins, NY. Some years earlier he started an organization, "AAA," All Addicts Anonymous, which very likely still exists but how widely known it is I do not know—not very I'd guess. Very long and very complicated story to all this. I don't know if it will ever be told either in full or to some extent even. That's probably up to his son. Tom W., Odessa, TX On Jun 24, 2007, at 5:45 PM, Mike wrote: > I read a few years ago that Tom Powers was still alive. I also read > that quite awhile ago he had started his own anonymous group. Anyone > have any info? Thanks, Mike > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4406. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA at it''s best. From: Tom White . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/25/2007 10:15:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dear Byron: It sounds like Bill to me. I did not hear him make that remark, but he did tell me once, when I complained to him at NYC HQ that a new group I had just joined in upstate New York had accused me of wanting to steal their treasury (they didn't like some proposal I made for disposing of excess funds in it), that I should start a new group and forget about the accusation of wanting to raid their funds. "That's how AA grew," he said. Tom W. Odessa, TX On Jun 25, 2007, at 4:35 AM, Byron Bateman wrote: > I have a question I'd like to post. > > Somewhere in the past I seem to remember reading about a question > that was posed to Bill. It concerned him being asked about all the > arguments/contention that could surround AA business meetings, or > assemblies. He is supposed to have answered with; "That's A.A. at > it's best." > > Does anyone know the validity of this statement, or if so, where I > may find it? > > Byron Bateman > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4407. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bartlett''s Famiar Quotations From: S Sommers . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/26/2007 7:32:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Do you have an example of such a quote? Scores of phrases might have entered into usage within the fellowship, but I can't think of a Big Book phrase which has entered into common usage by the general public which wasn't already in use before the book was written. The Big Book has much colorful, if dated, language like "the goose hung high," and "even plain ordinary whoopee parties." I think there is no conspiracy with the editors of Bartlett's or anybody else. We're simply not as quoted by the public at large as some might imagine. Sam Sommers Elkhart Indiana --- spebsqsa@att.net wrote: > Scores, perhaps hundreds, of phrases entered into > common usage > direct from the Big Book of of Alcoholics Anonymous > and from > other A.A. books and pamphlets. Yet I haven't found > any of > them in "Bartlett's Familiar Quotations" or other > similar > reference books tracing the origins of common > quotations. > > I can't see that happening without a conscious > decision by > the editors of these collections, either on their > own or at > the request of Alcoholics Anonymous, to avoid > sourcing any > quotations to A.A. literature. Can anyone offer some > insight > on this topic? > ____________________________________________________________________________ ____\ ____ Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545469 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4408. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Stewart''s Cafeteria[s] From: John Lee . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/26/2007 11:45:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The location used by the Alcoholic Squadron was Sheridan Sq, Christopher St., in the West Village. jlobdell54 wrote: There's been a discussion of the location of Stewart's Cafeteria where some of the Alcoholic Squad (and others) used to meet. I know there was a Stewart's at Christopher Street, a Stewart's at 7th and 23rd, a Stewart's at Columbus Circle, and obviously there were others. I think 7th and 23rd was where Kitty R worked (a long-time North Jersey member who died fifty-plus years sober a few years ago). I would guess the Museum of NY City might have a record of all the Stewart's locations, but I'm not in a position to look them up. Perhaps someone in the city might be able to find the addresses at least for those south of Central Park. --------------------------------- Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4409. . . . . . . . . . . . “Jim Burwell’s Copy of OM” From: Fiona Dodd . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/26/2007 1:29:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I would like to thank Bill for sharing the below with us. Fiona Given the current excitement surrounding the sale of the "Master Copy" of the Original Manuscript, there was a request here for more information on Jim Burwell’s copy of the Original Manuscript and I will try to supply as much detail about it below as possible. My Lady Sara and I are the current owners of the Burwell copy of the "Original Manuscript" – one of the multilith copies of the proposed text of the Big Book that were circulated in late 1938 and early 1939 for review and comments. A standard bibliographical description of the book would read as follows: Alcoholics Anonymous, Works Publishing Co., 17 William St., Newark, N.J. [dated by hand: "#2 Copy / Dec. 8, 1938"]. Original front board cover + TP + 1 leaf = Index + 1 leaf = Index -- (2) + 1 leaf = Foreword + 1–4 = The Doctor’s Opinion + 1–76 + 1 leaf = The Alcoholic Foundation + 1–79 = Personal Stories. [note: with p. 64 printed upside down] + original rear board cover, 8½ " x 11", First Mulitlith Edition ("The Original Manuscript Edition"). The book has been rebound twice. Once at some point in the past, Jim Burwell had the book rebound with a uniform black cloth binding that had the title "Alcoholics / Anonymous // Book No. 2. / of the / First Hundred Mimeographed / Copies" on the front cover in gilt lettering. By 1993, this second binding was in need of replacement so an identical looking black cloth binding (with exactly the same front cover title information) was created by Ron M. The first black cloth binding has been separately preserved along with the original endpapers from that binding. NOTE: The phrase "First Hundred Mimeographed Copies" is problematic both in the number and the use of the word ‘mimeo,’ but it seems clear that Jim Burwell selected and approved the wording of this title. PROVENANCE: Jim’s copy was lost to him at some point (a fact noted in at least one of his recorded talks), but it was returned to him at some later date. When Jim died in 1974, his wife Rosa gifted this copy to Jim’s nephew, who was also named Jim. The book comes with the accompanying note from Rosa to Jim’s nephew: Dear Jim: This was Jim’s original "book". In "AA Comes of Age" Bill [Wilson] tells how they had no money to get the plates made for the hard cover book, so, if you bought and paid for this mimeo edition, you were promised (the promise was kept) a free copy of the Big Book when it was printed! Incidently in 1954 when the 2nd Edition was printed it was discovered that while the mimeo was copy-written (copy righted!) the Big Book was not – until 1954. Good AA thinking to be sure. Jimmy valued this more than anything he had of AA material and wanted you to have it eventually. The names of the original people are all in there and I have included the "Grapevine" article and the letter from New York which was read at the Memorial Service we had for Jimmy. The phrase "God as you understand him" was what Jimmy fought for so hard, and it has changed the lives of thousands of people, including myself, who could not accept any dogma when they arrived in AA. I want to thank you and also Alice for your kindness and affection when you came out here. Lovingly Rosa When this nephew died in 1991, the book became his wife’s property. The next year, she gifted it to Jim’s sister Sally who later needed to offer the book for sale at Pacific Book Auctions – where my wife and I bought it in September of 2001. The unique features of this copy include: INSIDE FRONT COVER: Jim’s handwritten name and New Jersey address (crossed out) beneath which is are two of his later San Diego addresses (crossed out) and below this (but covered up with white-out), in another hand, is the name and address of Clarence Snyder in Florida (it seems likely from this and other internal evidence – see below – that at some point the ‘lost’ copy ended up with Clarence before making its way back to Jim) TITLE PAGE: With the title "Alcoholics / Anonymous" (NOTE: not "Alcoholic’s" as in some other copies) Under which Jim has written in black ink: "#2 Copy / Dec. 8, 1938" VERSO OF INDEX PAGE: This originally blank page is filled with a wealth of historically important information (written in blue ink by Jim) including: "Those Dry + Active Since AA Book 4/1/39" beneath this header are two columns with subheads: "N.Y. Group" and "Akron" listing the full names of five NY AA’s in the order of their sobriety (with dates) along with six full names and dates from Akron. Death dates are also included for those who died before 1956 in one style of handwriting (indicating that this page might have been written out at that time) along with other death dates added later – including Jim’s. Below this is another major header: "Others who contributed to writing the book. / Some have died, + some have now recovered." Again, this list is broken down into two columns with subheads for "N.Y. Group" and "Akron Group." There are twenty full names listed alphabetically in the N.Y. Group column – with some marked "(D)" for ‘dead’ in both ink and pencil. The Akron Group column lists seventeen names listed alphabetically – again with "(D)" noted. Below this are four new names, which are not in alphabetic sequence, that have been added in another hand – which I would suspect to be Clarence Snyder’s, since his name appears among these. (NOTE: three of these four additions are for names that already appear in the ‘Sober Akron Six’ column at the top of the page – bringing the real count for this Akron column up to eighteen.) NOTE: I have always understood the above information to say that, to the best of Jim’s recollection (with one new name added by Clarence?) that, by late 1938, there were 48 men and 1 woman who were "active" in AA and who "contributed" to the writing of the Big Book. Of these, 11 stayed continuously sober while the other 38 drank again at least once more. Below this is a final major header: "Non Alcoholics Who Were So Helpful" listing seven full names – Dorothy Snyder appearing in a different hand at the end. NOTE: Dr. Howard is listed here as being from "(N.J. State Hosp)" INDEX – (2) PAGE: All of the "Personal Stories" on this page have been identified in Jim’s handwritten notations with the full names of the writers – except for "Ace Full – Seven – Eleven" which is left blank. The story "My Wife and I" is here attributed to Marie Bray (wife of Walter Bray) and has the additional interesting notation: "To Wives" followed by an arrow pointing to her name. (I thought Bill wrote that chapter by himself!) Below this is a subheader "Added in Book" and below that the names of eight other Personal Stories along with the writers full names. There are seven large ‘X’ marks to the left of seven of these Personal Stories. (I had thought that these checks might apply to those who stayed continuously but only five of the seven qualify on that account.) OTHER NOTATIONS: The "Foreword" page has a number of words underlined in pencil indicating changes to text as it was finally printed and a large parenthesis around the final statement about this being a "multilith" copy. Similarly the first three pages of Chapter Five have underlinings indicating where changes were made to the text along with three small marginalia entries. There are no other markings in the book. Old Bill [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4410. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA at it''s best. From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/26/2007 4:00:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII To: Tom White I didn't know that a group once accused you of misusing its funds. I often mention in my talks that I was in three groups where the treasurer ran off with the money. Then I add this comment: "But they always welcomed me back!" All the best to you, Tom. Mel Barger Mel ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Mel Barger melb@accesstoledo.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom White To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 10:15 PM Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] AA at it's best. Dear Byron: It sounds like Bill to me. I did not hear him make that remark, but he did tell me once, when I complained to him at NYC HQ that a new group I had just joined in upstate New York had accused me of wanting to steal their treasury (they didn't like some proposal I made for disposing of excess funds in it), that I should start a new group and forget about the accusation of wanting to raid their funds. "That's how AA grew," he said. Tom W. Odessa, TX On Jun 25, 2007, at 4:35 AM, Byron Bateman wrote: > I have a question I'd like to post. > > Somewhere in the past I seem to remember reading about a question > that was posed to Bill. It concerned him being asked about all the > arguments/contention that could surround AA business meetings, or > assemblies. He is supposed to have answered with; "That's A.A. at > it's best." > > Does anyone know the validity of this statement, or if so, where I > may find it? > > Byron Bateman > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4411. . . . . . . . . . . . 12 and 12 quote From: lmarcia46 . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/26/2007 6:51:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I am trying to find out the clergyman who made the quote: "This is the Step that separates the men from the boys." found on page 63 of the 12 and 12. Thanks for your help. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4412. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: 12 and 12 quote From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/27/2007 8:04:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Fr. Ed Dowling. -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of lmarcia46 Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 6:52 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] 12 and 12 quote I am trying to find out the clergyman who made the quote: "This is the Step that separates the men from the boys." found on page 63 of the 12 and 12. Thanks for your help. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4413. . . . . . . . . . . . the first twelve members of AA From: Aloke Dutt . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/29/2007 7:56:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII These are the first twelve members of AA: Bill Wilson Dr. Bob Smith Bill Dotson Eddie Reilly Dr. McK. Bill Dotson Ernie Galbraith Hank Parkhurst Phil Smith Wes Wymans Fitz Mayo Freddie B. NY Brooke B. NY Some of these were failures. Can someone tell me; Who were the failures ? Thanks Aloke D in India IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4414. . . . . . . . . . . . AA membership included in Obituary From: jennasgrmy . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/29/2007 10:59:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I would love to hear anyone's experience with AA membership and time in the program being mentioned in the individual's obituary. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4415. . . . . . . . . . . . Pouring the mold: notes on the BB manuscript From: james ryan . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/29/2007 2:50:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The pages of the original manuscript that Sotheby's displayed on their website had a number of interesting notations in the margins. One note, or rather a set of two notes, interests me in particular. Over the title of Chapter Five, someone wrote in (in a cursive hand): "Should be studied from the mold angle." This comment doesn't appear to be directed at any particular passage, but is rather intended as a general comment on the introduction to the Steps. On the page that describes Step Eleven, someone wrote in printed capital letters: "POURING THE MOLD." This comment is in the margins next to the paragraph describing the morning meditation. The comments appear to be in different hands, but allude to the same metaphor. Some person or persons thought of this program in terms of this metaphor. A mold is a container that gives shape to a hot liquid that solidifies when it cools. We have molds for plastics, metals, even jello. I get that part of the metaphor, and I can speculate as to how it might apply to the program, but I wonder if anyone out there might have some historical or anecdotal knowledge about this one. Where does "the mold angle" come from? How did the folks in '39 talk about it as a way of thinking about the program? These comments were not adopted into the text of our Big Book, but they seem to be a way of thinking that was important enough to get a couple mentions in the notes. Anybody have any thoughts? Thanks, James IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4416. . . . . . . . . . . . Donation Baskets From: M.Eaton . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/1/2007 11:47:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In the Toronto Area, we traditionally leave a donation basket by the coffee pot at hospital meetings and detox center meetings and do not pass it around. As a result, most of the time there is never enough collected to pay for the coffee and/or literature and these meetings do not have the tools to help the suffering residents who ask for books or literature. I started passing a donation basket and was soon able to help not only the one meeting but many others in the area. I was ordered to stop by our DISTRICT because this is against the Traditions and the Principles of Service as set down by New York. Is this accurate historically? Murray E. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4417. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: 12 and 12 quote From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/30/2007 8:50:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Tommy in Baton Rouge: What is your source for this, Bill? - - - - At 07:04 6/27/2007 , Bill Lash wrote: Fr. Ed Dowling. - - - - From: Tom White (tomwhite at cableone.net) Dear Marcia: It was by Father Ed Dowling, Bill's spiritual advisor. I think the quote first appears in AA Comes of Age, but not sure of that. Tom W. - - - - Message 4411 from (lmarcia46 at yahoo.com) said I am trying to find out the clergyman who made the quote: "This is the Step that separates the men from the boys." found on page 63 of the 12 and 12. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4418. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: the first twelve members of AA From: greg merkel . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/1/2007 10:40:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Message 4413 from Aloke D. in India gave a list which was supposed to be the first twelve members of AA, and asked which ones failed to stay sober: Bill Wilson Dr. Bob Smith Bill Dotson Eddie Reilly Dr. McK. Bill Dotson Ernie Galbraith Hank Parkhurst Phil Smith Wes Wymans Fitz Mayo Freddie B. NY Brooke B. NY - - - - From: "greg merkel" (gregandkathy41385 at comcast.net) Hank Parkhust was one and so was Ernie Galbraith. He showed up sober at Dr. Bob's funeral. - - - - From the moderator, Glenn C. (South Bend, IN): That's not a very accurate list, to begin with. You've somehow or other got Bill Dotson on there twice, as was noted in messages sent in by: "John J. Clark" (johnnyjclark at sbcglobal.net) "M.Eaton" (meaton1287 at rogers.com) Shakey1aa@aol.com (Shakey1aa at aol.com) Comments were also sent in suggesting that we can get too negativistically focused on failure, from Bill Lash (barefootbill at optonline.net) "There is no such thing as a failure." "David Johnson" (crescentdave at yahoo.com) "Failure is such a loaded word (pardon the inadvertent pun)." HERE IS A LIST OF EARLY AA MEMBERS which I assembled as part of a Big Book study. I cannot 100% guarantee the accuracy of this list, but I think it is nevertheless a more useful list than the list of twelve names which you have, for various reasons. (Big Book p. 159) Bill Wilson "leaving behind his first acquaintance [Dr. Bob], the lawyer [Bill Dotson], and the devil-may-care chap [Ernie Galbraith]" left Akron and took a train back home to New York in late August 1935. He had been in Akron a little over three months, most of it living in Dr. Bob and Anne Smith's home, where Bill and Dr. Bob had worked out the basic modifications which were going to have to be made to the Oxford Group methods so they would work better with alcoholics. (Big Book p. 159) "A year and six months later these three had succeeded with seven more," that is, by the end of February 1937, there were a total of ten people in the Akron AA group. Among the early Akron AA's, some or all of the following people may have been included in that "seven more." For those whose stories appeared in the first edition of the Big Book, the title of the story is also given. We need to remember that at any given time, the count would have included people who had gotten sober but were not going to stay sober, and also people who got permanently sober in Akron but who then left to found AA groups in other cities, so it is probably impossible to completely reconstruct the list of seven people whom the Big Book authors were thinking of at this point. AKRON: Ernie Galbraith, "The Seven Month Slip," first got sober September 1935, but had continual trouble staying sober. Phil S., AA No. 5, sober September 1935, first AA court case. Tom Lucas, sober November 1935, "My Wife and I." Walter Bray, sober February 1936, "The Backslider." Joe Doppler, sober April 1936, "The European Drinker." Paul Stanley, sober April 1936, "The Truth Freed Me." Dick S. was regarded as AA No. 7. Bill V., Bob E., and Ken A. were all sober by 1937. James D. "J.D." Holmes, who founded the first AA group in Indiana, got sober in Akron in September 1936, and said that he was AA No. 10. But he had left Akron and gone to Evansville, Indiana, by the time the Big Book was written, so although he stayed sober till the end of his life, he was probably not counted among the seven people mentioned on page 159 of the Big Book. NEW YORK: during the same period, four of the people whose stories were in the first edition of the Big Book got sober in the New York area. Fitz Mayo, sober October 1935, "Our Southern Friend." Hank Parkhurst, sober November 1935, "The Unbeliever." William Ruddell, sober November 1935, "A Businessman’s Recovery." Myron Williams, sober April 1936, "Hindsight." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4419. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Donation Baskets From: John J. Clark . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/4/2007 7:27:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: "John J. Clark" (johnnyjclark at sbcglobal.net) Murray, Ordered to stop? No one can order anyone to do anything in Alcoholics Anonymous. I fail to see how this is a Tradition violation. You're passing the hat in an AA meeting for an AA meeting. I am assuming that no other money goes to the facility but for rent? This scenario is no different than an AA group paying rent to a clubhouse. Clubs aren't AA pre se. Here in Cleveland we pass the hat at ALL AA MEETINGS except correctional facilities. And I'd pass one there too if I thought a con might pull a "fin" out of his shoe. Maybe I am missing something about the "beef" your district office has about your 7th Tradition activities? Johnny (Cleveland) - - - - From: "John Seibert" (quasso at mindspring.com) I don't know what your district says, but each group is autonomous except in matters affecting other groups or AA as a whole (Tradition 4) and if you pass a collection can according to the dictates of your group conscience then I can't see that it would be a violation of any of the other traditions John S. Nashville TN - - - - From: James Blair (jblair at videotron.ca) Meetings held in institutions such as hospitals, detox centers, prisons do not require contributions b/c they do not pay rent and literature and other supplies should be provided by the Area Committee. In Montreal we have an Institutions meeting once a month where we pick up literature and supplies. No rent = No contributions. Jim - - - - From: "seamus0803" (seamus0308 at hotmail.co.uk) Here in Ireland we would say 'Yes' We only pass the basket at closed AA meetings. At Open meetings where there are non AA members present or Hospital meetings the basket is not passed because a) it violates Tradition 7: 'Every group ought to be fully self-supporting, declining outside contributions' b) at an Open meeting is also violates Tradition 12: 'Anonymity is the spiritual foundation of all our traditions...' because AA members would contribute and therefore would be breaking their anonymity. I only wish that someone had told be about this before I acted as secretary at 2 open meetings for my own home group!! Seamus - - - - From: pvttimt@aol.com ???? In 29.5 years, in California, Colorado, New Mexico, Arizona and Pennsylvania, I've never been to a meeting that did not pass the basket, except in detoxes, shelters and the like where the folks don't have any money to contribute. ???? Nor have I ever heard of the "rule" or tradition of which you speak. - - - - From: "Joe Nugent" (joe-gent at sympatico.ca) Hi Murray, Institutions meetings such as jails, detoxifi- cation units and hospitals are supported by the district, supplying coffee, literature, big books, the room is free to the people putting on the meeting as well. Joe District 9 Area 86 - - - - From: Sober186@aol.com (Sober186 at aol.com) I doubt that anyone on this site wants to be the A.A. police. It is unclear from your email which tradition the trusted servants of the district might be referring. However you write "I started passing" etc. Would it be more in line with all the traditions if the group had first held a group conscience to determine how the group wants to collect the funds? You might also recommend to the group members they read over the pamphlet, "The A.A. Group" before the group conscience is held. I would also be guided by "Tradition #4 -- "With respect to its own affairs, each A.A. group should be responsible to no other authority that its own conscience." The traditions do not state how that money is to be raised but do give some guidance in Tradition 7--"The A.A. groups themselves ought to be fully supported by the voluntary contribu- tions of their own members." One thing that makes A.A. tolerable to many of us is that there appear to be no hard and fast rules. I hope this helps. Love and serve. JimL. - - - - From: michael oates (moates57 at yahoo.com) read traditions how it developed pamphlet, it states we are not concerned with small contributions from non members Michael S. Oates - - - - From: "David Stack" (davidrstack at bellsouth.net) Seventh tradition: Short form - "Every A.A. group ought to be fully self- supporting, declining outside contribution." If the meeting you are referring to is a closed meeting of A.A. then I see no problem with passing the basket. The A.A. members are supporting the group through voluntary contribution. However if the meeting is an open meeting, non-A.A.s may be putting money in the basket which is a violation of our traditions. The "group" is receiving money from outside sources if you will (non-A.As) and is not fully self supporting by its own members. David R. S. - - - - From: Edie Stanger (edie.s at tx.rr.com) I don't know how to respond to whether it is accurate historically. In my group, the hospital meetings are 12th Step work by our group members who attend the meetings. "We are self-supporting" refers to my home group, not to the alcoholic in the hospital where we are carrying the message. The people in the hospital are not "members" of my home group, unless they later elect to attend regular group meetings. My home group pays for all literature and desire chips we take to the meetings. Alcoholics Anonymous receives enough negative propaganda (cult, religious affiliation, etc.) without the basket being passed at hospital and treatment center meetings. Edie - - - - From: "Kimball ROWE" (roweke at msn.com) The use of 7th tradition money for literature is forbidden (at least that's the way I interpret it). Each group should be self-supporting. Each individual should also be self-supporting. How many groups in our district get around that is by passing a separate basket for the purchase of literature. This second basket is passed after the 7th tradition basket has made the rounds. I can also think of three other groups that have book raffles after the meeting with the proceeds going to literature. And finally, money for literature for inmates is collected in pink cans left in the open (usually near the coffee pot). At no time do we use the 7th tradition money for literature for newcomers, whether they be in a meeting, a treatment facility or in prison. I don't see a problem with collecting monies for literature for newcomers - provided that it is clear to all those who donate that it is separate from the 7th tradition monies and does not affect the operation of the group. Inmates can not enter into a financial arrange- ment with a prison volunteer (in this state). Thus they can not pay for their books. So we pass the "pink" cans. People who pay $30,000 or more for a treatment center can surely afford $30,006.50. However, we do pass a second basket for those unable to afford literature. see Concept 12, Warranty 2, page 67 of the AA Service Manual. - - - - From: spebsqsa@att.net (spebsqsa at att.net) If your district "owns" the hospital and detox meetings, then it will be picking up the cost. Problem solved. :-) - - - - From: Bill Kain This program and a guy named Vince got into my face and told me the truth about himself and then me .... Then he told me the good news -- that I could change if I wanted to. The District and New York had nothing to do with it. I leave those people who "interpret" AA alone. They can interpret a cow's butt as far as I am concerned. And maybe, they do some good. But for me (and I speak only for me) "when anyone, anywhere reaches out for help, I want the hand of AA to be there, and for THAT, I am responsible." This program saved my life. I will do anything to give back. billyk IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4420. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Donation Baskets From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/6/2007 12:33:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Arthur S. and Shakey Mike G. - - - - From: "Arthur S" (ArtSheehan at msn.com) Hi Murray The GSO of the US/Canada will uniformly and historically go out of their way NOT to order or imperiously issue any so-called "principles of service as set down by New York." Their long-established and persistent practice is to simply offer information on how other groups, districts, areas, etc. have previously handled the matter under discussion. Sometimes an all-too-sensitive alcoholic may perceive a well intended suggestion from a service committee representative as taking the form of an imperious directive. When in doubt go to AA literature. It has no axe to grind, is unemotional, has no agenda, gets rigorous Trustee and Conference Committee scrutiny and has withstood the test of time. I do believe you'll get much better and more thorough information from AA literature sources rather than from extemporaneous replies to your inquiry. AA literature that can provide you with information on Treatment Facilities (TF) committees, common practices associated with TF meetings as well as a list of suggested "Do's" and "Don'ts" related to the TF service function are: (1) the "Treatment Facilities Workbook" (2) the AA Guidelines titled "Treatment Facilities Committees" and (3) the pamphlet titled "AA in Treatment Facilities." There is a distinction defined in the TF literature between a "group" and a "meeting" that is not a semantic triviality. Unless there is an AA group physically located in the treatment facility (which does not appear to be the case in your citation) meetings taken into the facility are called "treatment facility AA meetings" and not considered "regular" AA meetings. Treatment facility AA meetings are usually only open to residents of the facility and not to AA members in general. These meetings do not constitute a "group" and as such need not be self-supporting. The literature will also inform you that expenses associated with carrying the message into treatment facilities (and corrections facilities as well) are usually absorbed by service committees sponsored by Areas, Districts, Intergroup Central Offices or directly by groups. These entities (and their activities) are self-supporting through AA member (not treatment facility patient) donations. These entities will also often donate literature to be taken into treatment facilities for distribution to the patients. Please refer to the AA literature items noted above. It can be obtained from your local Toronto Intergroup Central Office. According to their web site they also sponsor a Treatment Facilities Committee and can also offer information on TF services. You might consider giving them a call. I'm not sure if you are referring to the Toronto Central Office as your "district" (which is part of the General Service structure). If not, then your Area Delegate is also vested with the responsibility to help clarify and resolve Traditions matters and I'm sure would be happy to discuss the matter with you. Cheers Arthur - - - - From: Shakey1aa@aol.com (Shakey1aa at aol.com) The meeting, you told me, is given out by the hospital and institution committee of the district. That committee probably has guidelines that are given out to the members that take the commitments. The committee makes the guidelines. If you don't want to adhere to the guidelines of that committee, you have two options: 1. don't take the commitment 2. ask your home group's GSR to discuss it at the district meeting and then have the DCM taken it to the area meeting as a concern. There is no reason to get upset about this. Pray about it. Talk to your service sponsor about it. Remember that an informed group conscience with substantial unanimity will finally decide what is best. Shakey Mike Gwirtz IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4421. . . . . . . . . . . . Slender threads quote From: marianlhill . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/7/2007 2:35:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In a talk at Texas State Convention in 1954 recounting the making of the Big Book, Bill W. used the phrase "On what slender threads our destiny sometimes hangs" in regards to arranging the Rockefeller Dinner. Did he use that phrase at other times? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4422. . . . . . . . . . . . Big Book memorabilia From: Trysh Travis . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/6/2007 11:49:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII As people who have read my postings over the last few years may have noticed, I have been working on a book about AA's print culture -- what was written and published, when and by whom, and how it was distributed and used in the pursuit of sobriety. I had an article on this published a couple of years ago ("Print Culture in the AA Fellowship" http://historyofalcoholanddrugs.typepad.com/alcohol_and_drugs_history/SHADV1 9.ht\ ml [3]) and now another article, on the history of the Big Book is coming out. When I say it's "coming out," I mean I got a letter from the publisher today saying they hope it will be in print by 2009! The wheels grind slowly in the Ivory Tower! In addition to this good news, the publisher asked if I had any illustrations for my piece. I talk briefly in it about the way AAs treat their Big Books, and mention a number of things I have seen in meetings: needlepointed or tooled leather covers people have made; margin notes and comments by the Book's owners or by their sponsors; handmade bookmarks that are raffled off; etc. I do not have any images of these things to include as illustrations, but I thought maybe folks on this list might have some and be willing to share. I became interested in AA's print culture precisely because of the care people take with their Big Books, and I would love to show that visually in this article. If you have an artifact like those described above that you'd be willing to photograph and let me use as an illustration, please reply to me off list to discuss, at: (ttravis at wst.ufl.edu) Thanks in advance, as always. Trysh Travis IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4423. . . . . . . . . . . . Founder''s House Is a Self-Help Landmark From: James Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/9/2007 9:14:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Alcoholics Anonymous Founder’s House Is a Self-Help Landmark By LISA W. FODERARO The New York Times Published: July 6, 2007 http://www.nytimes.com:80/2007/07/06/nyregion/06aa.html?ex=1184385600&en=a4e 89f2\ 7513b9d9e&ei=5070&emc=eta1 [4] BEDFORD HILLS, N.Y., July 3 — The house tour was nearing an end in this Westchester County hamlet, in a region known for its historic sites, from pre-Revolutionary grist mills to Gilded Age mansions. But as the visitors entered the austere pine-paneled office that once belonged to Bill Wilson, a co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous, the tour suddenly became a pilgrimage. Jean Z. sat down at the smooth oak desk on which Bill W., as he was known, wrote “Alcoholics Anonymous,” or the Big Book, and smiled as her A.A. sponsor snapped a picture. Then they switched. “This, to me, would be the equivalent of a Christian going to the Vatican,” said Jean, of Long Island, who has been in A.A. for two years and gave only her last initial in keeping with the program’s tradition of anonymity. “To think that he just sat at this desk, a simple man who had a problem and wanted to get better. It’s touched my life and saved my life.” For many visitors to Stepping Stones, the gracious Dutch colonial-style house where Mr. Wilson lived with his wife, Lois, for the last 30 years of his life before dying of emphysema in 1971, there is, indeed, something profoundly personal, even spiritual, about the experience. It has been open to the public since 1988, when Mrs. Wilson died at 97. With no children, she left it to the Stepping Stones Foundation, which she had set up in the hope that the site would educate and inspire future generations. Set on eight wooded acres, the house was purchased by the Wilsons in 1941, several years after Mr. Wilson, a stockbroker, had his last drink and founded Alcoholics Anonymous with Dr. Bob Smith, an Ohio surgeon. So much early A.A. business was conducted here that for a time the organization subsidized some of the couple’s housing costs. This is also where Mrs. Wilson in 1951 created Al-Anon, an offshoot of A.A. for the family members of alcoholics. The tours were informal at first. But two years ago, the house became listed on the National Register of Historic Places. And this spring New York State added Stepping Stones to its new Women’s Heritage Trail, in recognition of Mrs. Wilson’s contributions to the self-help program that has become a model for treating addiction around the world. A.A. is a free, voluntary fellowship of men and women who meet to help one another become and stay sober through a 12-step recovery program. There are an estimated 100,000 A.A. groups in 150 countries, with more than two million members. The Big Book, the program’s bible, has sold nearly 25 million copies. Many other 12-step programs were inspired by A.A., like Narcotics Anonymous and Debtors Anonymous. “A.A. and Al-Anon are unquestionably among the greatest social movements of the 20th century, so it’s a very important site,” said Richard White-Smith, director of Heritage New York, a program of the state’s Office of Parks, Recreation and Historic Preservation, which develops heritage trails that consist of historic sites linked by a common theme. These days, tours are available by appointment seven days a week. “Unlike most museums, we get these hysterical phone calls,” said Annah Perch, executive director of the foundation, which owns and operates the property. “I got a call recently from a woman who said, ‘I’m in Penn Station and I’m from Ireland and this is the only day I can come.’ ” Every June, hundreds of A.A. members arrive for the organization’s annual family groups picnic, a tradition the Wilsons started in 1952. Occasionally, a nearby A.A. or Al-Anon convention brings a crush of visitors. Last Labor Day, 1,200 Hispanic members of A.A. met at a hotel in Rye and descended on Stepping Stones throughout the weekend. On the daily house tours, about 60 percent of visitors are members of A.A. and 30 percent are members of Al-Anon. But both Ms. Perch and state officials hope that will change. “There’s an important story here for the general public to understand,” Mr. White-Smith said. Stepping Stones is now hiring an archivist to continue the work of cataloguing the Wilsons’ possessions, including the most significant items, now in storage, like the first copy of the Big Book to roll off the press. On Tuesday, the group included Frank W., of Malvern, Ohio, who has been an A.A. member for 22 years, here with three generations of his family. “This is pretty awesome,” he said, after lingering over memorabilia like a letter to Mr. Wilson from Carl Jung, and a photograph of Richard M. Nixon receiving the millionth copy of the Big Book. “I prayed for two or three years not to drink, and I drank every day,” he said, choking up. “I was going to lose my wife and my children. Everything I have, I owe to A.A.” In the house, with its mahogany antiques handed down from Mrs. Wilson’s family, it seems as if the couple were still alive. In the master bedroom, a can of PermaSoft hair spray still sits on Mrs. Wilson’s vanity, along with a single bobby pin. In another area, a box of Wash ’n Dri and a can of lighter fuel share space with books. While the desk in Mr. Wilson’s office was the one on which he wrote the Big Book, it belonged to a friend who had lent him an office in Newark for the project. The desk was eventually moved to Stepping Stones, and Mr. Wilson wrote later works in the studio office here, including “Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions.” There was a faded copy of that book on the desk, along with a first edition of “Alcoholics Anonymous.” Jean Z.’s sponsor, Louise, touched the books as Jean took her picture. “What a gift,” she said. “I could almost cry.” Ms. Perch was ready with a reassuring word: “We always say it’s not a successful tour unless at least one person cries.” IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4424. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA membership included in Obituary From: kathypetit2 . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/2/2007 4:07:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From kathypetit2 and Charlie Perkins - - - - From: "kathypetit2" (kathypetit2 at yahoo.com) From what I've been told, once you pass on your anonymity is gone as well.It has been my experience that when a member of home group passes away, they make mention of the fact that they were a member of the Mason St. Night Group of Alcoholics Anonymous. I have never seen anyone make mention of their length of sobriety. Since the only way we can "Graduate" from the program is to die sober, why not share with the world who helped you obtain your freedom? - - - - From: Charlie Perkins (boonieavon at yahoo.com) Hi, Only mention I've ever seen was "...he was an active emeber of AA..." Saw that for three different gents. But there was no mention of time sober. Lotsaa love ... charliep IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4425. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 12 and 12 quote From: Byron Bateman . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/5/2007 5:36:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII N.C.C.A. "BLUE BOOK" AN ANTHOLOGY Catholic Asceticism and the Twelve Steps Reverend Edward Dowling, S.J. The Queen's Work, St. Louis, Missouri Brooklyn, 1953 =========== Below, is an excerpt from my copy of the above titled document which I obtained from an internet search. ============= "I think the sixth step is the one which divides the men from the boys in A.A. It is love of the cross. The sixth step says that one is not almost, but entirely ready, not merely willing, but ready. The difference is between wanting and willing to have God remove all these defects of character. You have here, if you look into it, not the willingness of Simon Cyrene to suffer, but the great desire or love, similar to what Chesterton calls "Christ's love affair with the cross."" IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4426. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA membership included in Obituary From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/10/2007 11:26:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Kathy If an obituary is placed in newspaper, or other medium, regarding a deceased AA member, it is up to the family of the deceased member to decide what is or isn't revealed. There is no such notion in AA literature that "once you pass on your anonymity is gone as well." Both the General Service Board and General Service Conferences have issued the policy and advisory actions noted below: 1960 General service Board Policy Approved the following policy statement: 'The Board believes that AA members generally think it unwise to break the anonymity of a member even after his death, but that in each situation the final decision must rest the family". A few states are particularly stringent with respect to the problem, interpreting such anonymity breaks as a breach of privacy subject to legal action. 1968 General Service Conference Advisory Action Recommended that the showing of the full face of an AA member at the level of press, TV and films be considered a violation of the Anonymity Tradition, even though the name is withheld. That the Board adopt the following policy statement to be used in answering inquiries relating to posthumous breaking of anonymity: The board generally believes that AA members think it unwise to break the anonymity of a member even after his death, but that in each situation the final decision must rest with the family." 1988 General Service Conference Advisory Action It was recommended that: The 1971 General Service Conference Action be reaffirmed: "AA members generally think it unwise to break the anonymity of a member even after his death, but in each situation the final decision must rest with the family." Further, the AA Archives continue to protect the anonymity of deceased AA members as well as other members. 1993 General Service Conference Advisory Action Each area delegate encourage discussions within all AA groups on the spiritual principles of Anonymity, including photographs, publications and posthumous Anonymity, as related to our Eleventh and Twelfth Traditions. 2007 General Service Conference Advisory Action A section on posthumous anonymity be developed by the Publications Department for inclusion in the pamphlet “Understanding Anonymity” and a draft be brought back to the 2008 Conference Committee on Public Information for consideration. Cheers Arthur IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4427. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA membership included in Obituary From: Hugh D. Hyatt . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/16/2007 4:19:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In Message 4426, "Arthur S" (ArtSheehan at msn.com) wrote: > 2007 General Service Conference Advisory Action > > A section on posthumous anonymity be developed > by the Publications Department for inclusion > in the pamphlet “Understanding Anonymity” > and a draft be brought back to the 2008 > Conference Committee on Public Information > for consideration. This Conference agenda item arose out of an incident in a District neighboring mine. A member of the Fellowship died and in the published obituary, not only was the deceased member's anonymity broken, but two still-living members were also thanked -- by full name -- for helping the deceased find and maintain sobriety. The conscience of the District and of the Area was, in my understanding, that the wording in the pamphlet should more clearly and emphatically encourage members of the Fellowship to ask family members to maintain their anonymity after death. This would make it more consistent with the 1960 Board policy and the 1968 Conference advisory action mentioned by Arthur. -- Hugh H. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4428. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 12 and 12 quote From: johnlawlee . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/16/2007 4:29:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII How does a quote from Father Dowling's 1953 Queens Work publication serve as the source for a 1952 publication, the 12&12? It would seem more likely that "separates the men from the boys" was just common popular slang used by Father Dowling in his communica- tions with Bill Wilson in the 40s and 50s. john lee - - - - In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Byron Bateman" wrote: > > > N.C.C.A. "BLUE BOOK" AN ANTHOLOGY > > Catholic Asceticism and the Twelve Steps > > Reverend Edward Dowling, S.J. > > The Queen's Work, St. Louis, Missouri > > Brooklyn, 1953 > > =========== > > Below, is an excerpt from my copy of the above > titled document which I obtained from an internet > search. > > ============= > > "I think the sixth step is the one which > divides the men from the boys in A.A. It is > love of the cross. The sixth step says that > one is not almost, but entirely ready, not > merely willing, but ready. The difference > is between wanting and willing to have God > remove all these defects of character. You > have here, if you look into it, not the > willingness of Simon Cyrene to suffer, but > the great desire or love, similar to what > Chesterton calls "Christ's love affair with > the cross."" > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4429. . . . . . . . . . . . Important 4th edition BB Preface change #2 From: finniganjerry . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/16/2007 2:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Much has been written about the on-line v f2f deletion in the Preface to the BB fourth edition. Comparatively little attention has been paid to a smaller change that has a much larger consequence for all written references made in Conference-approved literature to the BB. The original statement in the first few printings of the 4th ed. read 'Therefore, the first portion of this volume, describing the A.A. recovery program, has been left untouched in the course of revisions made for the second, third, and fourth editions'. AA history lovers know this to be untrue: there were hundreds of changes made to the first 164 pages after the 1st printing of the first edition. The word 'largely' has been inserted between 'left' and 'untouched' in later printings. It might still be a statement of dubious accuracy but it certainly is an improvement over the original. The 56th General Service Conference made the same change - addition of the modifier 'largely' - to the Introduction to 'Experience, Strength and Hope' and in other AAWS service material in which BB immutablilty was claimed. Those changes have not yet been implemented. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4430. . . . . . . . . . . . 60 years of AA in the UK From: David Jones . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/15/2007 5:24:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Personal Ads Alcoholism: A small body of anonymous ex-sufferers place themselves at the disposal of any who require help. The offer is quite gratuitous. Write Box N334, Financial Times, 72 Coleman Street, EC2. This matter-of-fact and unobtrusive notice, which appeared in the personal columns of the Financial Times on the 9th June, 1947, marked the arrival in the UK of Alcoholics Anonymous and enshrined in one unremarkable paragraph two of its fundamental and revolu- tionary principles. AA members keep their sobriety by working with still-suffering alcoholics and it costs nothing. The Start of AA in Great Britain The venue for AA's first meeting in Great Britain was petty classy — London's Dorchester Hotel. Grace O., an American AA, visiting London had been asked by GSO in New York to contact several people in Britain who wanted information about AA. Amongst them were Chris B., probably the first person in England to use AA to attain sobriety, 'Canadian' Bob B., an American serviceman Sergeant Vernon W., and Norman R-W., who was still drinking. The meeting was held in Room 202 of the hotel at 8 p.m. on Monday 31st March 1947. Others attending the meeting were Tony F., an Irish airman, Flash W., an American and Pat G., a female member from California whom Grace had met on the voyage. In the same way that early American meetings had been held in members' homes meetings were held in Canadian Bob's house in Mortlake Road, Kew Gardens as well as in cafés. Progress was slow at first but when Canadian Bob visited new members Alan and wife Winnie in Bolton he informed them that they were the Bolton Group. In November 1948 the Group held its first meeting in the Millgate Hotel, Manchester. When Canadian Bob introduced Bill H. to sobriety in AA our service structure expanded with Bill's office in the London Fruit Exchange providing the fellowship with a postal address (BM/AAL London WC1) and a contact number (Bishopgate 9657) available Monday to Friday 10–5. By January 1949 meetings in London were being held on Tuesdays and Thursdays at 11 Chandos Street and membership had passed the magic 100. In 1952 AA began to lease 11 Redcliffe Gardens with the Central Committee managing it as the Central Service Office. In 1970 it became the General Service Office under the management of the General Service Board. When GSO relocated to Stonebow House in York in 1986 the London Regional Telephone office remained at Redcliffe Gardens until January 1999 when it moved into the Regional Service Office (London) at Jacob House and Redcliffe Gardens passed out of AA history. Meanwhile in Scotland the Oxford Groups had an instrumental role in AA beginnings as they had in America. The wife of Philip D., an active alcoholic, attended an Oxford Group in Scotland and heard about the Groups' role in the start of AA. Philip visited America in 1948 and attended meetings before returning to Scotland and carrying the message. Forbes C. got involved and meetings began in Perth, Edinburgh and Glasgow in 1949. Cathedral Road, Cardiff was the location of the first AA meeting in Wales. The meeting took place on Friday 13th April 1951 with five attendees. God bless Dave IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4431. . . . . . . . . . . . "An Alcoholic''s Wife" in 1st edit. Big Book From: greatcir@comcast.net> . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/16/2007 8:09:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Why did Bill W. and the others include the story "An Alcoholic's Wife" on page 378 of the first edition BB when she was not an alcoholic? One day at a time, Pete K. _________________________ THE STORY: Marie B. Cleveland, Ohio, "An Alcoholic's Wife" I HAVE the misfortune, or I should say the good fortune of being an alcoholic's wife. I say misfortune because of the worry and grief that goes with drinking, and good fortune because we found a new way of living. My husband did not drink, to my knowledge, for several years after we were married. Then we started on an occasional Saturday night party. As I drank nothing except an occasional highball I soon became what was called a "wet blanket." The parties became more frequent and more often I was left at home. I would sit up and wait for him. As each car passed the house I would return to walking the floor and crying and feeling so sorry for myself, thinking, "Here I am left at home to take care of the baby and him out having a good time." When he did return sometimes on Sunday and sometimes a week later, it usually called for a scene. If he was still drunk I would put him to bed and cry some more. If he was sober it would mean I would say all the things I had been thinking and cry some more. He usually got drunk again. I finally went to work as the bills worried me. I thought if I worked and got the bills paid he would quit drinking. He had no money in the bank but would write checks as he knew I would pay them for the boy's sake and in the hopes that each time would be the last. I thought I should have a lot of credit, as I was paying his bills, taking care of the house and baby, besides my work, making as much money as he was, doing without things I wanted so he could have a good time. I always went to church and thought I was living a Christian life. After my husband came in contact with Alcoholics Anonymous I thought our troubles were over as I was sure all our trouble was his drinking. I soon found out that there was a lot wrong with me. I was selfish with my money, time, and thoughts. I was selfish about my time because I was always tired and had no time left for my family's pleasure or to do God's work. All I did was go to Sunday School and Church on Sunday with the boy and thought that was all God wanted me to do. I would be irritable and lose my temper and say all manner of things which usually called for another drunk and me pitying myself all over again. Since giving my husband's problem to God I have found a peace and happiness. I know that when I try to take care of the problems of my husband I am a stumbling block as my husband has to take his problems to God the same as I do. My husband and I now talk over our problems and trust in a Divine Power. We have now started to live. When we live with God we want for nothing. _________________________ NANCY OLSON'S BRIEF BIOGRAPHICAL NOTE ON MARIE: Marie, a non-alcoholic, was the wife of Walter B. ("The Backslider"). Walter first joined A.A. in September 1935. There is indication in the Akron archives that Marie may have written the first draft of "To Wives," which Bill then edited. But "Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers" and "Lois Remembers" both state that Bill W. wrote it. She started her brief story by saying "I have the misfortune, or I should say the good fortune, of being an alcoholic's wife. I say misfortune because of the worry and grief that goes with drinking, and good fortune because we found a new way of living." Marie worried constantly about her husband's drinking, went to work to pay the bills, covered his bad checks, and took care of their home and their son. When he stopped drinking she thought their problems were over, but soon found she had to work on her own defects and that they both had to give their problems to God. She ended her story by saying "My husband and I now talk over our problems and trust in a Divine Power. We have now started to live. When we live with God we want for nothing." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4432. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Men from the Boys From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/19/2007 12:18:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Evidently, when Fr Ed Dowling spoke to the clergy in Brooklyn in 1953 he made use of earlier conversations with Bill. In The Soul of Sponsorship, p. 62, in a letter from Bill to Fr. Ed, August 8, 1952, he remarks, "these steps separate 'the men from the boys' all right" -- from which we may conclude Fr. Ed had used the phrase in conversation with Bill or in a letter I have not seen, before that date. Fr. Ed may not have given his Brooklyn talk until 1953 (assuming the NCCA published it the year he gave it), but he was clearly preparing his response to the discussion of the Steps in the 12&12 at the same time Bill was preparing his final version of that discussion. In any case, there can be little doubt that Bill is directly quoting Fr. Ed, since he has the "men from the boys" in quotation marks in his letter of 8/9/52, well before the publication of the 12&12. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4433. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "An Alcoholic''s Wife" in 1st edit. Big Book From: james ryan . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/20/2007 11:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Back in that day there was no Alanon. Families of alcoholics came to AA meetings and parti- cipated freely. At that time, AA believed that its "primary purpose" was simply to help people suffering from alcoholism, even if it was someone else's alcoholism. Non-alcoholic members even formed AA meetings specifically for family members. Alanon was eventually formed from a large group of AA family groups that were already operating around the country. My guess is that this story was included in the First Edition to represent the small but important population of non-alcoholics who were getting help in early AA. "Lois Remembers" is a good source for more on this. -James R. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4434. . . . . . . . . . . . The first eight AA Internationals From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/25/2007 5:24:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The first eight A.A. International Conventions For the early A.A. internationals, we have brief historical accounts written up in a variety of different sources. Some of them were compiled and put together in more orga- nized fashion by Nancy Olson a few years ago: The First A.A. International Convention Cleveland, Ohio, 1950 http://www.barefootsworld.net/aa1stintl1950.html The Second A.A. International Convention St. Louis, Missouri, 1955 http://www.barefootsworld.net/aa2ndintl1955.html The Third A.A. International Convention Long Beach, California, 1960 http://www.barefootsworld.net/aa3rdintl1960.html The Fourth A.A. International Convention Toronto, Canada, 1965 http://www.barefootsworld.net/aa4thintl1965.html The Fifth A.A. International Convention Miami, Florida, 1970 http://www.barefootsworld.net/aa5thintl1970.html The Sixth A.A. International Convention Denver, Colorado, 1975 http://www.barefootsworld.net/aa6thintl1975.html The Seventh A.A. International Convention New Orleans, Louisiana, 1980 http://www.barefootsworld.net/aa7thintl1980.html The Eighth A.A. International Convention Montreal, Canada, 1985 http://www.barefootsworld.net/aa8thintl1985.html IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4435. . . . . . . . . . . . When and how did state conventions begin? From: Don and Holly Slack . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/24/2007 2:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello! As members of this group know, we already have historical accounts written about the earliest A.A. international conventions, beginning with the First A.A. International in Cleveland in 1950 (see the immediately preceding message). What can be told, however, about the history of the earliest A.A. State Conventions (and in Canada, Provincial Conventions)? How were they started? Were they organized by Areas, or by some sort of state committees? Are there states (or provinces) where they have (or used to have) more than one annual convention per year? Thank you all for your wealth of infor- mation, it is always so great to read about this history! Sincerely, Holly S. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4436. . . . . . . . . . . . When did sponsorship begin? From: xii.step.society . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/28/2007 12:02:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I'm a new Member here and excited that such a group exists. I've been looking in my books ­-- other than Bill and Bob ­-- does anyone know when having a sponsor become a 'formal' part of AA? Joanee - - - - From Glenn C. (glennccc at sbcglobal.net) In early Akron AA, the "sponsor" was the AA member who guaranteed that your bill would be paid when you were checked into St. Thomas hospital for detoxing. See the description of the sponsor's role in the Akron Manual (called "A Manual for Alcoholics Anonymous") that was handed to newcomers when they were checked into the hospital for detoxing. Copies of this may still be purchased from the Akron Intergroup office, or you can read a copy of the original version online: http://hindsfoot.org/AkrMan1.html http://hindsfoot.org/AkrMan2.html This is usually the starting point in a discussion of the evolution of the modern notion of the AA sponsor. Section III of the pamphlet talks about the sponsor's role, as it was understood at the beginning of the 1940s: - - - - A WORD TO THE SPONSOR who is putting his first newcomer into a hospital or otherwise introducing him to this new way of life: You must assume full responsibility for this man. He trusts you, otherwise he would not submit to hospitalization. You must fulfill all pledges you make to him, either tangible or intangible. If you cannot fulfill a promise, do not make it. It is easy enough to promise a man that he will get his job back if he sobers up. But unless you are certain that it can be fulfilled, don't make that promise. Don't promise financial aid unless you are ready to fulfill your part of the bargain. If you don't know how he is going to pay his hospital bill, don't put him in the hospital unless you are willing to assume financial responsibility. It is definitely your job to see that he has visitors, and you must visit him frequently yourself. If you hospitalize a man and then neglect him, he will naturally lose confidence in you, assume a "nobody loves me" attitude, and your half-hearted labors will be lost. This is a very critical time in his life. He looks to you for courage, hope, comfort and guidance. He fears the past. He is uncertain of the future. And he is in a frame of mind that the least neglect on your part will fill him with resentment and self-pity. You have in your hands the most valuable property in the world -- the future of a fellow man. Treat his life as carefully as you would your own. You are literally responsible for his life. Above all, don't coerce him into a hospital. Don't get him drunk and then throw him in while he is semi-conscious. Chances are he will waken wondering where he is, how he got there. And he won't last. You should be able to judge if a man is sincere in his desire to quit drinking. Use this judgment. Otherwise you will find yourself needlessly bumping your head into a stone wall and wondering why your "babies" don't stay sober. Remember your own experience. You can remember many times when you would have done anything to get over that awful alcoholic sickness, although you had no desire in the world to give up drinking for good. It doesn't take much good health to inspire an alcoholic to go back and repeat the acts that made him sick. Men who have had pneumonia don't often wittingly expose themselves a second time. But an alcoholic will deliberately get sick over and over again with brief interludes of good health. You should make it a point to supply your patient with the proper literature -- the big Alcoholics Anonymous book, this pamphlet, other available pamphlets, a Bible, and anything else that has helped you. Impress upon him the wisdom and necessity of reading and re-reading this literature. The more he learns about A.A. the easier the road to recovery. Study the newcomer and decide who among your A.A. friends might have the best story and exert the best influence on him. There are all types in A.A. and regardless of whom you hospitalize, there are dozens who can help him. An hour on the telephone will produce callers. Don't depend on chance. Stray visitors may drop in, but twenty or thirty phone calls will clinch matters and remove uncertainty. It is your responsibility to conjure up callers. Impress upon your patient that his visitors are not making purely social calls. Their conversation is similar to medicine. Urge him to listen carefully to all that is said, and then meditate upon it after his visitor leaves. When your patient is out of the hospital your work has not ended. It is now your duty not only to him but to yourself to see that he starts out on the right foot. Accompany him to his first meeting. Take him along with you when you call on the next patient. Telephone him when there are other patients. Drop in at his home occasionally. Telephone him as often as possible. Urge him to look up the new friends he has made. Counsel and advise him. There was a certain amount of glamour connected with being a patient in the hospital. He had many visitors. His time was occupied. But now that he has been discharged, the glamour has worn off. He probably will be lonely. He may be too timid to seek the companionship of his new friends. Experience has proved this to be a very critical period. So your labors have not ended. Give him as much attention as you did when you first called on him -- until he can find the road by himself. Remember, you depend on the newcomer to keep you sober as much as he depends on you. So never lose touch with your responsibility, which never ends. Remember the old adage, "Two is company and three is a crowd." If you find a patient has one or more visitors don't go into the room. An alcoholic goes to the hospital for two reasons only -- to get sober and to learn how to keep sober. The former is easy. Cut off the alcohol and a person is bound to get sober. So the really important thing is to learn how to keep sober. Experience has taught that when more than three gather in a room, patient included, the talk turns to the World Series, politics, funny drunken incidents, and "I could drink more than you." Such discussion is a waste of the patient's time and money. It is assumed that he wants to know how you are managing to keep sober, and you won't hold his attention if there is a crowd in the room. If you must enter the room when there is another visitor, do it quietly and unobtrus- ively. Sit down in a corner and be silent until the other visitor has concluded. If he wants any comments from you he will ask for them. One more word. It is desirable that the patient's visitors be confined to members of Alcoholics Anonymous. Have a quiet talk with his wife or his family before he goes to the hospital. Explain that he will be in good hands and that it is only through kindness to him that his family and friends are asked to stay away. New members are likely to be a little shy. If they find a woman in the patient's room they are not inclined to "let down their hair." The older hands don't mind it, but a new member might unwittingly be kept from delivering a valuable message. - - - - At the end of the Akron pamphlet, in its original version as used in the early 1940s, there was also a recommended reading list for the newcomer: - - - - SUGGESTED READING The following literature has helped many members of Alcoholics Anonymous. Alcoholics Anonymous (Works Publishing Company). The Holy Bible. The Greatest Thing in the World, Henry Drummond. The Unchanging Friend, a series (Bruce Publishing Co., Milwaukee). As a Man Thinketh, James Allen. The Sermon on the Mount, Emmet Fox (Harper Bros.). The Self You Have to Live With, Winfred Rhoades. Psychology of Christian Personality, Ernest M. Ligon (Macmillan Co.). Abundant Living, E. Stanley Jones. The Man Nobody Knows, Bruce Barron. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4437. . . . . . . . . . . . State Conventions From: Art Boudreault . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/26/2007 12:07:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII For Northern California: Dear Holly, "In 1952 ... a meeting was called at the AA Council Conference." The purpose of this meeting was to establish a statewide Al-Anon Assembly. The first AA meeting is described as follows: "Two alcoholics formed a group in Oakland and met for the first time in April, 1941. "Quotes are from "Journey to Recovery, a Fifty Year History of Al-Anon and Alateen in Northern California." It seems logical that the first council conference in Northern California began between those two dates. I know the historian for the Council and will ask for more information. Art Boudreault IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4438. . . . . . . . . . . . Where did Bill W. say "the cost of a drink"? From: mary . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/26/2007 10:09:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Everyone, Does anyone know where Bill W said, "At our meetings, we should contribute the cost of a drink" ? This was brought up at my area meeting and I haven't any idea where I can find this. Thanks for your help on this matter. Summer is here and it is fun. Just Don't Drink. Enjoy!!!! Mary G IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4439. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: When did sponsorship begin? From: James Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/28/2007 11:34:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The Oxford Groups had sponsors and the guiding motto was "Walk with the new man until he becomes a life changer then leave him alone as the needs of others will drive him back to God." Jim IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4440. . . . . . . . . . . . The moment''s silence From: Simon Knapper . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/25/2007 6:04:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Everyone I wonder if anyone could help me with a query about the silence that we hold at the beginning of meetings here in the UK. The wording which is usually used is more or less as follows: " May we have a few moments silence to remember why we are here and the still suffering alcoholic both inside and outside these rooms" Can anyone tell me where this came from -- in essence it's similar to Tradition 5. Is similar wording used over the water? Many Thanks Simon IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4441. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The moment''s silence From: xii.step.society . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/29/2007 12:29:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: (xii.step.society at verizon.net) Simon ­-- I don't know where it came from ­-- other than someone's compassion. But we do say the same thing at the end of meetings (or worded by the person who leads the Serenity Prayer) across the pond. Joanee - - - - From: Bill Kain (billyk4444 at yahoo.com) We also have a moment of silence here on the East Coast (Philadelphia), but usually at the end of the meeting before the Lord's Prayer. The chairperson usually says: "please join me in a moment of silence, for the alcoholic who still suffers, both inside and outside our rooms, and in particular, for the ones that will die tonight from this disease." I've heard similiar sayings as far away as Chicago, Illinois, and Key West, Florida. It's interesting to know that good traditions like this, spread around the world. billyk - - - - From: CBBB164@AOL.COM (CBBB164 at AOL.COM) It should be the decision of the informed Group Conscience as defined in Tradition Two and is within the freedom granted by Tradition Four. The practice of our Group is to open our meetings with, "Let's open our meeting with a few moments of silent prayer or meditation followed by the Serenity Prayer." It will be different for other Groups. In God's love and service, Cliff Bishop 214-350-1190 http://www.ppgaadallas.org/ IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4442. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The moment''s silence From: mary . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/29/2007 1:06:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: "mary" (MaryGerbermom1 at aol.com) Hi Simon.....Look on page 71 in the book Dr Bob and the Good Old Timers and you will find your answer...... Mary - - - - From: "john.otis" (suzkem at theriver.com) When the program started in the 30s at Dr. Bob's house they had one hour of silence to meditate and wait for God's direction. I myself close my eyes and pray to do God's will to help others. Most of the time I don't even know what I say, for God works through me to help others. John Otis IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4443. . . . . . . . . . . . The moment''s silence and the Oxford Group Quiet Time From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/29/2007 7:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII MaryGerbermom and John Otis remind us that a period of silence may be traceable back to the Oxford Group and its practice of a morning Quiet Time. MaryGerbermom points to page 71 in Dr. Bob and the Good Old Timers: At Dr. Bob's house, "each morning, there was a devotion .... After a long silence, in which they awaited inspiration and guidance, Anne would read from the Bible .... Sue also remembered the quiet time in the mornings -- how they sat around reading from the Bible. Later, they also used 'The Upper Room,' a Methodist publication that provided a daily inspirational message, interdenominational in its approach." As a parenthetical note, on The Upper Room, see http://hindsfoot.org/uprm1.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Upper_Room_%28Christianity%29 http://www.upperroom.org/ The Big Book also talks about the use of a morning Quiet Time, as a means of seeking guidance for the day, much as was practiced in the Oxford Group. See pp. 86-87 on the eleventh step. In "Twenty-Four Hours a Day," early AA author Richmond Walker put an enormous emphasis upon the Oxford Group-type period of Quiet Time as an opportunity to heal our souls by entering into the peace and calm of the Divine Silence: http://hindsfoot.org/hp5rw.html IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4444. . . . . . . . . . . . Early AA sponsorship: Clarence Snyder''s 1944 pamphlet From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/29/2007 7:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII 1944 A.A. Sponsorship Pamphlet by Clarence Snyder http://www.barefootsworld.net/aasponsorship1944.html Barefoot tells us in his introduction: This is the first pamphlet ever written con- cerning sponsorship. It was written by Clarence H. Snyder in early 1944. Its original title was to be "A.A. Sponsorship ... Its Obligations and Its Responsibilities." It was printed by the Cleveland Central Committee under the title: "A.A. Sponsorship ... Its Opportuni- ties and Its Responsibilities." ******************************************* PREFACE Each member of Alcoholics Anonymous is a potential sponsor of a new member and should clearly recognize the obligations and duties of such responsibility. The acceptance of an opportunity to take the A.A. plan to a sufferer of alcoholism entails very real and critically important responsibilities. Each member, undertaking the sponsorship of a fellow alcoholic, must remember that he is offering what is frequently the last chance of rehabilitation, sanity or maybe life itself. Happiness, Health, Security, Sanity and Life of human beings are the things we hold in balance when we sponsor an alcoholic. No member among us is wise enough to develop a sponsorship program that can be successfully applied in every case. In the following pages, however, we have outlined a suggested procedure, which supplemented by the member's own experience, has proven successful. PERSONAL GAINS OF BEING A SPONSOR No one reaps full benefit from any fellowship he is connected with unless he wholeheartedly engages in its important activities. The expansion of Alcoholics Anonymous to wider fields of greater benefit to more people results directly from the addition of new, worth-while members or associates. Any A.A. who has not experienced the joys and satisfaction of helping another alcoholic regain his place in life has not yet fully realized the complete benefits of this fellow- ship. On the other hand, it must be clearly kept in mind that the only possible reason for bringing an alcoholic into A.A. is for that person's gain. Sponsorship should never be undertaken to - 1. Increase the size of the group. 2. For personal satisfaction and glory. 3. Because the sponsor feels it his duty to re-make the world. Until an individual has assumed the responsi- bility of setting a shaking, helpless human being back on the path toward becoming a healthy useful, happy member of society, he has not enjoyed the complete thrill of being an A.A. SOURCE OF NAMES Most people have among their own friends and acquaintances someone who would benefit from our teachings. Others have names given to them by their church, by their doctor, by their employer, or by some other member, who cannot make a direct contact. Because of the wide range of the A.A. activities, the names often come from unusual and unexpected places. These cases should be contacted as soon as all facts such as: marital status, domestic relations, financial status, drink habits, employment status and others readily obtainable are at hand. IS THE PROSPECT A CANDIDATE? Much time and effort can be saved by learning as soon as possible if - 1. The man* really has a drinking problem? 2. Does he know he has a problem? 3. Does he want to do something about his drinking? 4. Does he want help? *The masculine form is used throughout for simplicity, although it is intended to include women as well. Sometimes the answers to these questions cannot be made until the prospect has had some A.A. instruction, and an opportunity to think. Often we are given names, which upon investi- gation, show the prospect is in no sense an alcoholic, or is satisfied with his present plan of living. We should not hesitate to drop these names from our lists. Be sure, however, to let the man know where he can reach us at a later date. WHO SHOULD BECOME MEMBERS? A.A. is a fellowship of men and women bound together by their inability to use alcohol in any form sensibly, or with profit or pleasure. Obviously, any new members introduced should be the same kind of people, suffering from the same disease. Most people can drink reasonably, but we are only interested in those who cannot. Party drinkers, social drinkers, celebrators, and others who continue to have more pleasure than pain from their drinking, are of no interest to us. In some instances an individual might believe himself to be a social drinker when he definitely is an alcoholic. In many such cases more time must pass before that person is ready to accept our program. Rushing such a man before he is ready might ruin his chances of ever becoming a successful A.A. Do not ever deny future help by pushing too hard in the beginning. Some people, although definitely alcoholic, have no desire or ambition to better their way of living, and until they do........ A.A. has nothing to offer them. Experience has shown that age, intelligence, education, background, or the amount of liquor drunk, has little, if any, bearing on whether or not the person is an alcoholic. PRESENTING THE PLAN In many cases a man's physical condition is such that he should be placed in a hospital, if at all possible. Many A.A. members believe hospitalization, with ample time for the prospect to think and plan his future, free from domestic and business worries, offers distinct advantage. In many cases the hospit- alization period marks the beginning of a new life. Other members are equally confident that any man who desires to learn the A.A. plan for living can do it in his own home or while engaged in normal occupation. Thousands of cases are treated in each manner and have proved satisfactory. SUGGESTED STEPS* The following paragraphs outline a suggested procedure for presenting the A.A. plan to the prospect, at home or in the hospital. QUALIFY AS AN ALCOHOLIC* 1. In calling upon a new prospect, it has been found best to qualify oneself as an ordinary person who has found happiness, contentment, and peace of mind through A.A. Immediately make it clear to the prospect that you are a person engaged in the routine business of earning a living. Tell him your only reason for believing yourself able to help him is because you yourself are an alcoholic and have had experiences and problems that might be similar to his. TELL YOUR STORY* 2. Many members have found it desirable to launch immediately into their personal drinking story, as a means of getting the confidence and whole-hearted co-operation of the prospect. It is important in telling the story of your drinking life to tell it in a manner that will describe an alcoholic, rather than a series of humorous drunken parties. This will enable the man to get a clear picture of an alcoholic which should help him to more definitely decide whether he is an alcoholic. INSPIRE CONFIDENCE IN A.A.* 3. In many instances the prospect will have tried various means of controlling his drinking, including hobbies, church, changes of residence, change of associations, and various control plans. These will, of course, have been unsuccessful. Point out your series of unsuccessful efforts to control drinking...their absolute fruitless results and yet that you were able to stop drinking through application of A.A. principles. This will encourage the prospect to look forward with confidence to sobriety in A.A. in spite of the many past failures he might have had with other plans. TALK ABOUT "PLUS" VALUES* 4. Tell the prospect frankly that he can not quickly understand all the benefits that are coming to him through A.A.. Tell him of the happiness, peace of mind, health, and in many cases, material benefits which are possible through understanding and application of the A.A. way of life. SHOW IMPORTANCE OF READING BOOK* 5. Explain the necessity of reading and re-reading the A.A. book. Point out that this book gives a detailed description of the A.A. tools and the suggested methods of application of these tools to build a foundation of rehabilitation for living. This is a good time to emphasize the importance of the twelve steps and the four absolutes. QUALITIES REQUIRED FOR SUCCESS IN A.A.* 6. Convey to the prospect that the objectives of A.A. are to provide the ways and means for an alcoholic to regain his normal place in life. Desire, patience, faith, study and application are most important in determining each indivi- dual's plan of action in gaining full benefits of A.A. INTRODUCE FAITH* 7. Since the belief of a Power greater than oneself is the heart of the A.A. plan, and since this idea is very often difficult for a new man, the sponsor should attempt to introduce the beginnings of an understanding of this all-important feature. Frequently this can be done by the sponsor relating his own difficulty in grasping a spiritual understanding and the methods he used to overcome his difficulties. LISTEN TO HIS STORY* 8. While talking to the newcomer, take time to listen and study his reactions in order that you can present your information in a more effective manner. Let him talk too. Remember ... Easy Does It. TAKE TO SEVERAL MEETINGS* 9. To give the new member a broad and complete picture of A.A., the sponsor should take him to various meetings within convenient distance of his home. Attending several meetings gives a new man a chance to select a group in which he will be most happy and comfortable, and it is extremely important to let the prospect make his own decision as to which group he will join. Impress upon him that he is always welcome at any meeting and can change his home group if he so wishes. EXPLAIN A.A. TO PROSPECT'S FAMILY* 10. A successful sponsor takes pains and makes any required effort to make certain that those people closest and with the greatest interest in their prospect (mother, father, wife, etc.) are fully informed of A.A., its principles and its objectives. The sponsor sees that these people are invited to meetings, and keeps them in touch with the current situation regarding the prospect at all times. HELP PROSPECT ANTICIPATE HOSPITAL EXPERIENCE* 11. A prospect will gain more benefit from a hospitalization period if the sponsor describes the experience and helps him anti- cipate it, paving the way for those members who will call on him. CONSULT OLDER MEMBERS IN A.A.* These suggestions for sponsoring a new man in A.A. teachings are by no means complete. They are intended only for a framework and general guide. Each individual case is different and should be treated as such. Additional information for sponsoring a new man can be obtained from the experience of older men in the work. A co-sponsor, with an experienced and newer member working on a prospect, has proven very satisfactory. Before undertaking the responsibility of sponsoring, a member should make certain that he is able and prepared to give the time, effort, and thought such an obligation entails. It might be that he will want to select a co-sponsor to share the responsibility, or he might feel it necessary to ask another to assume the responsibility for the man he has located. IF YOU ARE GOING TO BE A SPONSOR...BE A GOOD ONE! [* These headings were not in the original draft for this pamphlet. They were added for the first, and subsequent printings.] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4445. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The moment''s silence From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/29/2007 7:54:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII At 00:06 7/29/2007 , mary wrote: >From: "mary" >(MaryGerbermom1 at aol.com) > >Hi Simon.....Look on page 71 in the book >Dr Bob and the Good Old Timers and you will >find your answer...... Mary > >- - - - > >From: "john.otis" >(suzkem at theriver.com) > >When the program started in the 30s at >Dr. Bob's house they had one hour of silence >to meditate and wait for God's direction. I >myself close my eyes and pray to do God's >will to help others. Most of the time I >don't even know what I say, for God works >through me to help others. John Otis Both these answers refer to morning devotionals that Anne had in her house. I think equating these with what became A.A. meetings is a stretch. Those meetings were not held at the Smiths' home. It was not uncommon at the time for families to have daily devotionals at home and it would be natural for "guests" such as Bill W to take part in them, or at least to be invited to. Tommy H in Baton Rouge IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4446. . . . . . . . . . . . When did home groups begin? at least by 1944 From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/30/2007 2:48:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: "Tom Hickcox" (cometkazie1 at cox.net) Clarence Snyder's 1944 pamphlet on sponsorship said: "9. To give the new member a broad and complete picture of A.A., the sponsor should take him to various meetings within convenient distance of his home. Attending several meetings gives a new man a chance to select a group in which he will be most happy and comfortable, and it is extremely important to let the prospect make his own decision as to which group he will join. Impress upon him that he is always welcome at any meeting and can change his home group if he so wishes." This would have the concept of a "home group" in place by 1944. Tommy IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4447. . . . . . . . . . . . 95% First Year Dropout Myth From: loranarcher . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/30/2007 2:09:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The 95% dropout rate is inaccurate and based on flawed statistics. Rather than 5% of A.A. members remaining at the end of one year a more accurate estimate is that 36% remain attending A.A. at the end of one year and 32% are still attending at the end of 20 years. The 1989 GSO internal memo "Comments on A.A.'s Triennial Surveys" Appendix C: the First Year" has been widely misquoted as a measure of retention or dropouts. It is not a measure of retention or dropout, it is a simple frequency distribution of individuals by months since first came to AA and is limited to individuals with 12 or fewer months. The limitations of the AA membership surveys are well described in the GSO internal memo on page 4. A major limitation is the signi- ficant under counting of the AA membership resulting from the many groups that where not surveyed. The most recent "A.A. Fact File" that I received from GSO shows the estimated A. A. membership in the US as 1,168,990 members. This is a significant undercount of members. Using a national representative survey of the US, the NIAAA 1991-1992 National Longitudinal Alcohol Epidemiologic Survey (NLAES)I found that in 1991-1992 2.4 million individuals reported attending an A.A. meeting during the last year. I have posted a brief summary of my findings on A.A. membership on my website Alcohol Reports, www.alcoholreports.blogspot.com , as a Data Brief, dated July 29, 2007. Loran - - - - Note from the moderator: Loran Archer served in key positions at NIAAA after being recruited from the position of Director of the California Office of Alcoholism. In the later 1980s, for example, he was: Deputy Director National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism Alcohol, Drug Abuse, and Mental Health Administration U.S. Department of Health and Human Services He has now started "Bulletin Board - Alcohol Reports" at: www.alcoholreports.blogspot.com He is also one of the contributors to ALOCOHOL REPORTS (an international website dedicated to providing current information on news, newsletters, reports,publications, abstracts of peer-reviewed research articles and data briefs concerning alcoholism and alcohol-related problems throughout the world): USA -Loran Archer -Thomasina Borkman -Tom Colhurst -Jared Lobdell -Albert Pawlowski -Don Phillips CANADA -Tim Stockwell FRANCE - Philippe Arvers SOUTH ASIA - Prasantha De Silva UNITED KINGDOM -Libby Ranzetta FETAL ALCOHOL SPECTRUM DISORDERS - Peggy Seo Oba EMPLOYEE ASSISTANCE PROGRAMS - Paul M Roman IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4448. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: When did home groups begin? at least by 1944 From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/30/2007 1:38:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The use of Mother Group rather than Home Group existed in Philadelphia and several other cities up until the term Neighborhood group was used. (When more than one meeting was available. I think that once a choice of groups were available that the members came up with the phrase Home Group.) The first Home Group was probably at T. Henry and Clarace Williams house. It is the Mother Group of AA, and is now the King School group of Akron Ohio. It was still the mother group when Cleveland started up via Clarence S., a baby of Dr. Bob. Mitchell K can probably shed more light on the subject if he wishes too. All the early meetings were held in members homes as were the Oxford Group home meetings. The expression then came about, "What home group are you going to tonight? ABC or XYZ?" Thus XYZ is my home group is probably how it came about. Please correct me if I am wrong. Philadelphia had AA members and Associate members which included wives,clergy, judicial and medical doctors. My great-grand-sponsor's wife Dorothy Walker of La, Ca started Non-AA and wrote the 12 steps for them before Al-Anon. Lois Wilson is given credit for it but I think it was truly started by Anne Smith before Dr. Bob got sober the last time when she met with Henrietta Seiberling and other women at the Oxford Group Meetings. She was the one after all who gave Bill and Lois a spiritual/religious education and the concept of quiet time or now the reading of a daily meditation. She did start the concept of getting all the women together with tea and coffee while the men had a meeting which generally lasted several hours. In a previous post I asked for information on T. Henry and his wife and I have received almost nothing. I'm again asking for more info on him and also Esther E. of Texas. Several members had promised me some info but with it being summertime have not gotten around to it. Please don't forget about me. I am looking forward to reviewing it before I go to Phoenix the first week in September. I hope to meet many more AAHL's in person there and to say hello to those of you I have met in the past at the other archives convention. We really only get one chance a year to meet and the Archives Convention, which was started by Gail L. and our friends in Akron, gives us that opportunity. Yours in Service, See Ya in Phoenix.. Shakey Mike Gwirtz IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4449. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The moment''s silence From: ricktompkins . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/30/2007 6:08:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: "ricktompkins" (ricktompkins at comcast.net) In the early history of the Chicago Group, Sylvia K. recalled that the first 1939 meetings in Illinois started with a Bible reading and the discussions then focused on AA recovery. Soon after the growth of the Open Meetings, starting in October 1939 (the "Big" meeting), Chicago AAs began their meetings with a quiet time, reinforcing the inclusive concept of the spiritual rather than the religious. Whether the simple quiet time was a trend setter or a unique AA approach, it held for many years. Not today, of course... - - - - From Glenn C. (glennccc at sbcglobal.net) There is no "higher spiritual reason" for asking for a moment of silence at the beginning. It is done for purely pragmatic reasons! Like Sigmund Freud supposedly said once, while flicking the ashes off his cigar, "Sometimes a cigar is only a cigar." The reason you ask for "the moment of silence," is to give everybody in the meeting room a chance to stop all their private conversations, so we can then all start out on the prayer together. Sometimes even after you've said "let us have a moment of silence," several people (or more) keep on yammering at one another, totally oblivious to the leader of the meeting and everybody else in the room, and you have to say a second time, quite a bit louder "let us have a moment of silence -- PLEASE, guys," before everybody will shut up. - - - - From: James R (jamesoddname at yahoo.com) The meetings I've attended in the San Antonio, Texas, area open with something like: "May we have a moment of silence to use as you see fit, followed by the Serenity Prayer, for those who care to participate in it." - - - - From: Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com) With all this talk about stuff that has crept into groups traditions, it seems like the old timers lose track of Bill W saying there is no dogma. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4450. . . . . . . . . . . . House of AA founder a draw for members By JIM FITZGERALD, Associated Press Writer From: Angela Corelis . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/1/2007 6:01:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII House of AA founder a draw for members By JIM FITZGERALD, Associated Press Writer Wed Aug 1, 2007, 3:53 AM ET BEDFORD HILLS, N.Y. - At least once a year, Bill T. gathers up a few of his fellow Alcoholics Anonymous members and makes a pilgrimage from Florida to honor those who saved him from a life of drunkenness. The 56-year-old stopped drinking in 1990 and he likes to visit the former home of the co-founder of AA, Bill Wilson, and his wife, Lois. "I like to come up here because it carries the message," Bill T. said during a visit in July to the brown-shingled Dutch colonial. "There's a connectedness." Bill T. can sit at the kitchen table where in 1934 Wilson sat and drank gin with pineapple juice as a newly sober friend sparked his quest for a way out of alcoholism. He can see the desk, marred by cigarette burns, where Wilson later wrote "Alcoholics Anonymous," better known as "The Big Book," and set out the 12 steps and other principles that have helped millions. AA is an informal society of recovering alcoholics who help one another stay sober by following a 12-step, spiritual approach. An estimated 2 million members attend community meetings where they share their personal problems and triumphs. Many visitors are AA members, who use their first name and last initial in public to preserve their anonymity. For many, the Wilsons were miracle workers, and visiting their home, called Stepping Stones, is tremendously moving. "If you're sober in AA, you have this second life you never thought you'd have. It's very moving to see the books and the people and the things of interest that went into making Bill and Lois who they were," said Tim H., 62. "It's like learning about your Dad when he was a boy." Bill Wilson died in 1971 and Lois Wilson — who founded Al-Anon, the organization for alcoholics' relatives — set up the Stepping Stones Foundation in 1979. She died in 1988, and the house is maintained to look like it did when she and her husband lived in it. The four-bedroom home and the 8 1/2 acres around it in the New York City suburbs are owned and managed by the foundation. It's on the National Register of Historic Places. Lois Wilson catalogued hundreds of books, photos and keepsakes, including a letter from Carl Jung, a blessing from Pope Paul VI and a collection of plastic dinosaurs. A colorful towel is tacked to the wall, right where she placed it in the 1980s. Its label says, "This is a beach towel and I really don't remember where I got it." The Wilsons came to Bedford Hills in 1941, six years after founding AA with Robert Smith. The couple had been evicted from their Brooklyn brownstone. Executive Director Annah Perch says the foundation hopes to preserve the site and its contents, emphasize its educational value, and create a traveling exhibit that would spread the Wilsons' story. About 1,200 visitors came to the home last year. "Some people will never be able to come here," Perch said. "We have to bring the legacy of Bill and Lois beyond Stepping Stones." Among the items in need of preservation, and not currently seen on the tour, is Bill Wilson's original volume of "Alcoholics Anonymous," annotated by him as the first copy off the press in 1939. It was followed by 25 million more in English alone and millions more in other languages. Stephanie O'Keefe, 78, of Larchmont, was a friend of the Wilsons and visited the house Tuesday for the first time since Lois Wilson's death. "This looks pretty much the same," she said. "They found peace here. They were able to regenerate when they were exhausted." She remembered, however, that the Wilsons would occasionally steal away to another friend's house nearby for some privacy, since so many people were drawn to Stepping Stones. "They found the adoration difficult but understandable," she said. ___ On the Net: Stepping Stones Foundation: http://www.steppingstones.org Alcoholics Anonymous: http://www.aa.org ____________________________________________________________________________ ____\ ____ Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4451. . . . . . . . . . . . Copyright renewal database (covers 1950 to 1992) From: Ernest Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/9/2007 9:47:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Copyright Renewal Database "This database makes searchable the copyright renewal records received by the US Copyright Office between 1950 and 1992 for books published in the US between 1923 and 1963. Note that the database includes ONLY US Class A (book) renewals." Records include title, author, registration and renewal dates, registration number, renewal ID, and renewing entity. Searchable, or browse records by year, title, or author. From Stanford University Libraries. URL: http://collections.stanford.edu/copyrightrenewals/bin/page?forward=home LII Item: http://lii.org/cs/lii/view/item/24235 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4452. . . . . . . . . . . . Re:When did sponsorship begin? From: Byron Bateman . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/9/2007 4:49:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There is an article in "Language of the Heart" that tells of sponsorship in early Cleveland AA. The article was: "Another Fragment of History: Sister Ignatia and Dr. Bob." (Page 202) The original is the 1954 Grapevine issue also titled "Another Fragments of History" Volume 10, Issue 9. It is available from the Grapevine Digital Archives online. I am enclosing only a portion of that article. The portion that deals with "organized personal sponsorship" as indicated in the last sentence of this excerpt. Byron "A handful of Clevelanders had dried up by contact with Akron but held no meeting of their own until early 1939. It was then commonly supposed that nobody but "greybeards" could look after new people. The supply of seasoned AAs in Cleveland was of course painfully small. What could these few do with the hundreds of alcoholics who now descended on them like a landslide? Was mass production of sobriety possible? Well, those early Clevelanders proved that it was. Cases were dumped into hospitals willy-nilly all over town. Whether their hospital bills would be paid, no one knew. An AA would appear at a new man's bedside, snatch him out and take him to a meeting. The new man would thereupon rush to another bedside with the glad tidings. Then and there it was discovered that very new people could drive the opening wedge into a fresh case almost as well as anybody. Out of this confused scramble there soon evolved the great idea of organized personal sponsorship for each and every new man and woman." (Language of the heart" p.204 "Grapevine", Feb. 1954) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4453. . . . . . . . . . . . Loran Archer''s Data Brief in Alcohol Reports 7/29/07 From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/12/2007 2:01:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In AAHistoryLovers Message 4447 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/4447 "95% FIRST YEAR DROPOUT MYTH" Loran Archer referred to this Data Brief he had previously posted on the Alcohol Reports website. It is difficult to locate on that website, so I am posting a copy here, for the greater convenience of our AAHistoryLovers members. - - - - http://alcoholreports.blogspot.com/2007/07/data-brief-national-longitudinal. html Sunday, July 29, 2007 Data Brief - National Longitudinal Alcohol Epidemiologic Survey (NLAES) Findings on Alcoholics Anonymous Membership Estimated Alcoholics Anonymous Membership 1991-1992 *New members during past year - 0.9 million *On-going members - 1.5 million *Total membership - 2.4 million Continuation Rate in Alcoholics Anonymous In 1991-1992 4.8 million respondents reported ever attending an Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) meeting, for reasons related to their drinking, prior to the last 12 months. *31% reported continued AA attendance during the last 12 months Rate of continued AA attendance was associated with years since first AA meeting *1-4 years since first AA meeting - 36% remained *5-9 years since first AA meeting - 30% remained *10-19 years since first AA meeting - 29% remained *20 years or more since first AA meeting - 32% remained Comparison of Past Year Drinking Status - Dropouts and Continuing AA Members DROPOUTS: *Abstinent 33% *Low risk drinking 14% *High risk drinking 53% CONTINUED AA ATTENDANCE: *Abstinent 62% *Low risk drinking 9% *High risk drinking 29% low risk drinking = never exceed 4 drinks per day (male) or 3 drinks per day (female) high risk drinking = exceeds 4 drinks per day (male) or 3 drinks per day (female) Data Source: NIAAA 1991-1992 National Longitudinal Alcohol Epidemiologic Survey (NLAES) Data Brief Submitter: Loran Archer E-Mail: loranarcher@gmail.com IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4454. . . . . . . . . . . . 1968-1974 Alcoholics Anonymous comic strips From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/12/2007 7:55:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Sent in by John Blair, a link to the complete set of the 1968-1974 Alcoholics Anonymous comic strips: http://www.ep.tc/aa-comics/index.htm IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4455. . . . . . . . . . . . National Archives Workshop Sept. 6-9, 2007 From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/13/2007 1:24:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Coming up in three weeks. 11th Annual National Archives Workshop Preserving Our Heritage To Pass It On September 6 through September 9, 2007 Phoenix, Arizona - - - - http://www.aanationalarchivesworkshop.com/ http://www.aanationalarchivesworkshop.com/NAW07.pdf - - - - Sheraton Airport Hotel 1600 S. 52nd Street 1-800-325-3535 Contacts: Vicki Jo B. (H) 602-995-7349 / (W) 602-272-1347 happyvjb@yahoo.com (happyvjb at yahoo.com) Ron W. 623-934-4395 Ronw85301@aol.com (Ronw85301 at aol.com) ***Limited Amount Of Space Available for Archive Displays -- Advise Ahead Of Time If Bringing Displays*** [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4456. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 1968-1974 Alcoholics Anonymous comic strips From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/13/2007 3:43:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII >Sent in by John Blair, a link to the >complete set of the 1968-1974 Alcoholics >Anonymous comic strips: > >http://www.ep.tc/aa-comics/index.htm The two Conference Approved comics appear for sale regularly on eBay FWIW. They aren't particularly rare. Tommy in Baton Rouge. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4457. . . . . . . . . . . . Step principles: where did the idea of come from? From: Ernest Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/15/2007 8:02:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: "Roizen, Ron" (ron at roizen.com) Forwarded by: Ernest Kurtz (kurtzern at umich.edu) Hello! I was asked the question below on the ADDICT-L list. Would anyone on this list care to have a crack at it? I would be happy to forward your response to ADDICT-L. Many Thanks! In the 12 Step world, one often hears about how each step is governed by a single principle. The breakdown is different depending upon whom you talk to (e.g., Step One is said to be about "surrender" in some circles, and about "honesty" in others). Now, I don't agree with the idea that each step should be subject to such reductions -- for example I think that Step One involves both honesty and surrender, among other things -- and have long wondered where this notion began. It's not in the Big Book, must have come later, but I can't find the origin. Ron Roizen Wallace, Idaho ________________________________ From the moderator: Please note that Ron Roizen is NOT asking whether this idea is CORRECT. That would be a topic for the AA chat groups. The AAHistoryLovers however tries to stick to historical questions with factual answers, where we can give sources that can be documented. Roizen is asking for its ORIGIN, that is, WHEN and WHERE did the idea that each step has a single-word principle at its base, first start appearing anywhere in AA literature? ________________________________ On Ron Roizen's background, see for example: http://www.roizen.com/ron/index.htm Some Explorations in the Sociology of Alcohol Ron Roizen (Wallace, Idaho) RANES REPORT: Roizen's Alcohol News & Editorial Service Ron Roizen, Editor & Publisher http://www.roizen.com/ron/ranes.htm http://www.roizen.com/ron/raneshome.htm ADDICT-L@LISTSERV.KENT.EDU Academic and scholarly discussion of addiction and related topics Hosted by Kent State University: LISTSERV.KENT.EDU http://www.lsoft.com/scripts/wl.exe?SL1=ADDICT-L&H=LISTSERV.KENT.EDU http://listserv.kent.edu/archives/addict-l.html IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4458. . . . . . . . . . . . Presidential citation for Sgt. Bill S. From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/18/2007 2:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII On April 23, 2007, President George W. Bush sent Sgt. Bill S. a letter thanking him for his service to the country. The dossier which accompanied the request for the presidential letter of commendation read as follows: I would like to congratulate you on your sobriety of 58 years, a remarkable achievement in itself. I also want to acknowledge the amazing scope of your efforts, once sober, to help your fellow servicemen recover from alcoholism. These men and women had nowhere to turn with the problems associated with their affliction until you set up the first treatment program in the military at Mitchel Air Field, New York, in 1948 while a USAF Technical Sergeant. You then continued to do everything in your power to increase the availability of treatment, overcoming significant obstacles along the way. With the help of Marty Mann, founder of the National Council on Alcoholism, who arranged for you to receive a scholarship, you attended the Yale School of Alcohol Studies, where you studied with and obtained invaluable training from the leading scholars of the day in the field of alcoholism. At Lackland Air Force Base Hospital in Texas, after promotion to Master Sergeant, you wrote an article which was published in the American Journal of Psychiatry in 1956, in which you described the pilot program which you developed there under the supervision of the chief of the Department of Psychiatry. Your method of treatment was highly effective, achieving a 50% success rate and saving the Air Force approximately one million dollars per year by treating instead of discharging highly skilled servicemen. Your ground-breaking work in educating super- visory personnel regarding the nature of this disease and the possibilities of recovery, and establishing Employee Assistance Programs within the military, has saved the careers of many men and women whose lives, and the lives of their families, have been salvaged by their sobriety. Your accomplishments in the military were instrumental in setting the standard for future EAPs in the business sector as well. Your prolific writings, from pamphlets and magazine articles to illustrative charts and inspirational books, have spread helpful information and insights within the military, at treatment centers and for members of the public. Your materials help people to recognize the causative factors in alcoholism and to understand the need for help in dealing with these problems, as you persistently emphasize the benefits of involvement in a twelve-step program where those in need can find guidance, assistance and fellowship. After your retirement from the Air Force in 1961 as a Senior Master Sergeant, you continued to set up EAPs at Army and Navy bases as a Civil Servant [receiving the Navy’s Meritorious Civilian Service Award upon retirement from the Alameda Naval Air Rework Facility in 1981]. To this day you travel the country as an invited speaker, presenting enlightening material regarding alcoholism and recovery to audiences large and small. The successful- ness of your presentations is evident in the responses of the audience, as was demonstrated so touchingly in thank-you cards you received from "the toughest kids in Santa Rosa" after you visited with them at their special school in 2005. The intense appreciation you show for the opportunities and assistance that have been given to you, throughout your career and beyond, exemplifies the humility which is a trademark of your remarkable character. Your selfless devotion to the cause of alcoholism recovery is unmatched. Our country owes you a debt of gratitude for all of the time and energy you have invested in the solitary goal of providing help for those who suffer from this disease. You truly are a national treasure. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4459. . . . . . . . . . . . Sgt. Bill S. in the hospital From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/18/2007 2:29:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Sgt. Bill S. (Sonoma, California) was recu- perating at home after a heart attack, when he fell and broke his hip. So he is back in the hospital now. They are going to operate on his hip and try to insert a pin today (Saturday), but his weakened heart makes the surgery and anesthesia extremely dangerous. His wife Mary and his children are there. Mary is asking for our prayers. The general hospital phone number is 707-965-5000. Sgt. Bill, the father of modern military alcoholism treatment, set up the first offi- cially sanctioned military treatment programs for alcoholics in the 1940's and 50's, when the Alcoholics Anonymous movement was first spreading across the United States. A survivor of the attack on Pearl Harbor, he almost died after the war from his own out-of-control drinking, but finally found AA and got sober on July 5, 1948 (he was fifty-nine years sober as of last month). Bill has been a long time attendee at the Gathering of Eagles. He gave the keynote address at the 8th National Archives Workshop in Fort Lauderdale, Florida, in 2003, and has been a frequent speaker at AA conferences all over the United States. Bill S. was born in Niles, Ohio on June 29, 1918. He enlisted in the Army Air Corps in 1939, and served in the Pacific theater in World War II, narrowly escaping death in the attack on Pearl Harbor. After the war, Mrs. Marty Mann and her right hand man, Yev Gardner, got Bill assigned by the Air Force to work full time creating alcoholism treatment programs at Mitchel Air Force Base on Long Island and Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio. He retired from the Air Force as a Senior Master Sergeant in 1961, but later ran alcoholism treatment programs at Fort Ord for the Army, and then at Alameda Naval Air Station, where in 1983 he was given the Meritorious Service Award, the Navy's highest award for a civilian at a duty station, for his work there with alcoholics and drug addicts. Sgt. Bill was the most articulate spokesman for those in early A.A. who wished to emphasize the psychological dimension of the program without using much in the way of traditional religious language. http://hindsfoot.org/BSV02Psy.html In San Antonio, Texas, he and prominent American psychiatrist Louis Jolyon "Jolly" West developed the Lackland Model of alcoholism treatment, which combines psychiatric help in a small percentage of cases with extremely active involvement with the A.A. groups in the surrounding community. Dr. West was the American psychiatrist who became famous after figuring out how American prisoners of war were being brain washed during the Korean war and coerced into doing strange and almost unbelievable things without any use of physical torture. He eventually became the head of the Psychiatry Department at UCLA (the University of California at Los Angeles) and is credited by the university with being the one who turned it into a world famous teaching institution. Interest- ingly, Sgt. Bill's wife Mary is Dr. West's daughter. http://hindsfoot.org/kBS4.html http://hindsfoot.org/kBS5.html This was one of the three or four most suc- cessful approaches to alcoholism treatment developed in the twentieth century. If we compare the Lackland Model with the more heavily spiritual approach developed by Sister Ignatia and the early Akron A.A.'s at St. Thomas Hospital, and with the Hazelden- linked Minnesota Model which was eventually taken over by the psychiatrists and psycho- therapists and drug addiction couselors, we will be able to understand much better the basic alternatives in treatment philosophy which programs must still choose between today. "Singleness of purpose" and devotion to good old-time A.A. principles were the watchwords of Sgt. Bill's approach, which obtained an astounding but thoroughly documented 50% success rate for people going through the program the first time (in other words, up there with early Akron A.A.) even in the hostile environment of a hard-drinking mili- tary base. The success story which he and psychiatrist Dr. Louis Jolyon West related in the American Journal of Psychiatry in 1956 was distributed all across the country by the National Council on Alcoholism. Bill developed the Lackland Model after spending a year visiting Sister Ignatia at St. Thomas Hospital in Akron, and studying with noted alcohol researcher E. M. Jellinek at the Yale School of Alcohol Studies, where he and Searcy W. were fellow students. http://searcywdallastx.bigstep.com/homepage.html Sgt. Bill is the author of two books and a number of pamphlets on alcoholism. His book "On the Military Firing Line in the Alcoholism Treatment Program" tells the story of his life and work, and lays out his understanding of AA and how to produce successful alcoholism treatment. http://hindsfoot.org/kBS1.html http://hindsfoot.org/kBS2.html http://hindsfoot.org/kBS3.html http://hindsfoot.org/essays.html In February 1965, retired Navy Commander Richard Jewell approached Captain Joseph Zuska, the senior medical officer at the Long Beach Naval Station in California, and talked him into setting up a Navy program for the treat- ment of alcoholism. Jewell brought Sgt. Bill S. to Long Beach to give a talk and tell the people there how he had set up the program at Lackland Air Force Base in the early 1950's, and how the Lackland Model had obtained such a high success rate. So even though the U.S. Air Force failed to utilize Sgt. Bill's work in later years, the U.S. Navy picked up his method, with Dr. Zuska and other Navy personnel carrying out successful treatment programs for military personnel using his (and Dr. West's) basic model, while Bill S. worked with equal success as a civilian counselor with the Navy's civilian employees at Alameda Naval Air Station. In the process, Bill also played an important role in the development of the modern EAP (Employee Assistance Program) for dealing with alcoholism and other employee problems in the American business world. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4460. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Step principles: where did the idea of come from? From: John Williams . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/17/2007 12:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I was privileged to do Big Book Seminars with Charlie and Joe from 1983 to 2005 and on the program was Willie B. from Spring, Texas, and she always referred to the "one word" summation of the principle. She always credited Wino Joe as the one she got the idea from. Don't know how true it is but it sounds like something Wino Joe would come up with. John Williams IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4461. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Step principles: where did the idea come from? From: Lawrence Willoughby . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/17/2007 6:46:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Johnson Institute. - - - - Offices in Washington DC, Austin, Texas, and Minneapolis, Minnesota, web page at http://johnsoninstitute.org/ IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4462. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Step principles: where did the idea come from? From: dudleydobinson . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/18/2007 4:00:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In Message 4461, Lawrence Willoughby (shorty81751 at yahoo.com) wrote: > Johnson Institute. > > http://johnsoninstitute.org/ I looked at the above web site and could not find anything relating to the topic. "origination of Twelve Principles" ? Could you be more precise? In fellowship - Dudley Dobinson IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4463. . . . . . . . . . . . Sgt. Bill came through the surgery just fine From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/18/2007 9:51:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII As of 6:45 p.m. Saturday evening, California time, Sgt. Bill S. came through his surgery just fine. I just spoke with his wife Mary. They successfully put a pin in his broken hip, and he is now back in his hospital room napping under light sedation. Mary was extremely grateful for all the prayers which I assured her had been prayed from all around the globe. Now I've got to get on the phone and pass the good news on to a few of our Hoosier oldtimers who told me to call them the minute I had any news. Grace and peace, Glenn C. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4464. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Step principles: where did the idea of come from? From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/19/2007 12:47:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Ernie and hope you are well I would posit that the use of single-word descriptors to portray a "principle" had its origin prior to the formulation of the Steps (both the six and twelve Steps) and was influenced by the Oxford Group. Core Oxford Group principles consisted of the "4-absolutes," the "5-C's" and the "5-Procedures." The 4-absolutes advocated the single word absolutes of honesty, unselfishness, purity and love. The 5-C's were confidence, confession, conviction, conversion and continuance. The early Oxford Group practices of expressing core principles in a concise, straight-forward and easy-to-digest manner seems to have carried, with a number of other things, into the AA Fellowship. The 5-procedures were: 1. Give in to God, 2. Listen to God's direction, 3. Check guidance, 4. Restitution (or amends) and 5. Sharing for witness and confession. They may also have possibly served as a model or precursor for the expression of spiritual practices in a sequential numbered series or as a "program." Another popular AA practice that emerged early was to have placards displaying single-word descriptors of what it meant to be "On the beam" or "Off the beam." This may also be a contri- buting factor. However, I can find no written reference to the emphatic notion that each Step is intended to be characterized by a single-word descriptor representing a "principle." There are a number of endearing practices in AA that defy deter- mination of their factual origin other than through vague anecdotal reference (e.g. when did a portion of the Big Book come to be called "The Promises" - when did Steps 10, 11 and 12 start being called "the maintenance steps" etc.). In my judgment there is an awful lot of stuff circulating around AA that owes its durability far more to what kind of favorable impression it makes at meetings rather than what it says in substance. For early mid-West references, the Cleveland Central Bulletin of May 1943 has a statement from a member that "One of the cardinal principles of AA is tolerance." The August 1943 Cleveland Central Bulletin has a member's statement that "Our principles are unselfishness, honesty, purity and love, which demand expression in our contacts with all men." The October 1945 Grapevine has a statement from a member that "The AA program is a design for living normal, happy lives, and it is necessary that we practice the principles of tolerance, patience, unselfishness, humility, and that we curb our all too human desire to criticize and bear resentment." An article in the December 1945 Grapevine states "A gentle but earnest reminder that "we still have plenty of faults" and that AA will continue to succeed only by adhering to the simple "principles of honesty, tolerance and humility" were the keynotes of Bill's talk at the 11th annual banquet in New York on Nov 7." An article by Bill W in the December 1946 Grapevine states "The first written record of AA experience was the book, Alcoholics Anonymous. It was addressed to the heart of our foremost problem - release from the alcohol obsession. It contained personal experiences of drinking and recovery and a statement of those divine but ancient principles which have brought us a miraculous regeneration. From the earliest writings to contemporary AA, the term "principles" seems to be interpreted with two styles of definition: the first being single-word descriptors, the second full-sentence or multi-sentence statements of moral and spiritual codes of behavior. The latter style is used often to collectively describe the entire body of the Steps and Traditions. The former style seems to lean more to individual preference, interpretation and creativity. For example, in the book Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, Bill W wrote "The basic principles of AA, as they are known today, were borrowed mainly from the fields of religion and medicine, though some ideas upon which success finally depended were the result of noting the behavior and needs of the Fellowship itself." In AA Comes of Age, Bill W wrote: "One more noteworthy event marked this period of quiet: the publication of AA's Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions in 1953. This small volume is strictly a textbook which explains AA's twenty-four basic principles and their application, in detail and with great care." The earliest reference I could find that explicitly characterizes each of the 12 Steps with single-word and two-word descriptors of "principles" is in the Cleveland Central Bulletin of December 1971. It is an article that originated in a newsletter from Broward County Florida titled "A Message From the Gulf." It used the word "honesty" to describe Step 1. Today, in AA, the use of single-word descriptors to portray a "principle" embodied in an individual Step has been a bit of a sore point with me. To me it seems to obfuscate and restrict rather than clarify and amplify. Also, there is the matter of inconsistency that you note in your message. There are a number of postings in the AAHistoryLovers archives on this subject. My sense is that it will become more incon- sistent over time due to the number of vendors that sell what many call "drunk junk" at AA events, with wallet cards, placards, etc. advocating "principles" using single-word descriptors. On the other hand, perhaps the most famous and elegant statement reducing AA's Twelve Steps to two single words comes from our beloved Dr Bob in his last message in 1950 when he stated "Our 12 Steps, when simmered down to the last, resolve themselves into the words love and service." Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- Subject: Step principles: where did the idea of come from? From: "Roizen, Ron" (ron at roizen.com) Forwarded by: Ernest Kurtz (kurtzern at umich.edu) Hello! I was asked the question below on the ADDICT-L list. Would anyone on this list care to have a crack at it? I would be happy to forward your response to ADDICT-L. Many Thanks! In the 12 Step world, one often hears about how each step is governed by a single principle. The breakdown is different depending upon whom you talk to (e.g., Step One is said to be about "surrender" in some circles, and about "honesty" in others). Now, I don't agree with the idea that each step should be subject to such reductions -- for example I think that Step One involves both honesty and surrender, among other things -- and have long wondered where this notion began. It's not in the Big Book, must have come later, but I can't find the origin. Ron Roizen Wallace, Idaho IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4465. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Step principles: where did the idea of come from? From: Simon Knapper . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/17/2007 1:46:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi there! This may be a bit simplistic but I have always thought that the notion that each step has a principle behind it comes from the wording of the 12th step. "Practise these principles in all our affairs" seems to suggest that behind the steps, which are suggested actions, there are spiritual principles. Of course Bill might just have meant "practise these steps" in all our affairs. He just didn't like to repeat himself too much - as evidenced by "defects of character" and "shortcomings". So maybe it's just a misreading of Bill's intended meaning? In fellowship Simon K Dorking IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4466. . . . . . . . . . . . Step principles: Sgt. Bill S.''s one word summaries From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/19/2007 1:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII It is an interesting coincidence that Sgt. Bill S., whom we have just been talking about, used a one word summary to describe the basic principle (as he saw it) behind each of the steps, when he was giving talks to military personnel about alcoholism at Lackland in San Antonio, Texas, during the 1950's and later on in California. - - - - In the following, I am quoting from Sgt. Bill S., On the Military Firing Line in the Alcoholism Treatment Program, Chapter 18, "Recovery through the Twelve Steps" - - - - The twelve steps lead people through a thera- peutic sequence involving (1) insight, (2) surrender, (3) establishing positive goals, (4) introspection, (5) confession, (6) a more complete submission to the positive power of the healing process, (7) humility, (8) amend- ment, (9) restitution, (10) reorganization, (11) spirituality, and (12) learning to love others in a fuller and less selfish way. 1. INSIGHT: We admitted we were powerless over alcohol -- that our lives had become unmanageable. 2. SURRENDER: Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity. 3. POSITIVE GOALS: Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him. 4. INTROSPECTION: Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves. 5. CONFESSION: Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs. 6. SUBMISSION: Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character. 7. HUMILITY: Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings. 8. AMENDMENT: Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all. 9. RESTITUTION: Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others. 10. REORGANIZATION: Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it. 11. SPIRITUALITY: Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out. 12. LOVE: Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs. - - - - One of the most important things to note about our alcoholism treatment program at Lackland, was that the psychiatric and medical members of the treatment team worked in full collabo- ration with the Alcoholics Anonymous groups in the vicinity of the base. That was why we were able to obtain such a high success rate. Sister Ignatia ran her program at St. Thomas Hospital in Akron the same way, making full use of the psychiatric staff at the hospital whenever necessary, but bringing the A.A. volunteers directly into the ward, and she also obtained an extremely high success rate. In the fifty years since those days back in San Antonio, I have never seen a treatment program work very well at all when the principles of the A.A. twelve steps were not introduced to the patients -- no signs of significant success in particular when truly rigorous follow-ups were done two, three, and five years after treatment. And the less these programs involved direct participation by Alcoholics Anonymous workers, and had their patients going to A.A. meetings outside the treatment facility, the lower the success rate. In the case of prison A.A. groups, where allowing the prisoners outside the walls is not feasible, the programs that have worked well had committed A.A. members from the surrounding area who came within the walls to conduct meetings on a regular basis, and gave the inmates regular contact with the outside world and its standards and values. For those who are not too deeply familiar with Alcoholics Anonymous, the heart of its program centers on the twelve steps. Their application must become continual, because successful membership in A.A. requires a commitment to constant self-improvement and growth. It involves a way of life which is in fact healthy and healing for anyone who applies these principles. The word alcohol itself only shows up in the first half of the first step. All the rest of the steps deal with universal spiritual principles. The basic principles can in fact be applied to a whole host of human problems, ranging from out-of- control overeating to destructive sexual compulsions. Narcotics Anonymous replaces the word “alcohol” in the first step with “our addiction,” Gamblers Anonymous uses “gambling” instead, and other twelve step groups make similar appropriate modifications. All the twelve step programs have certain similarities, but the principle of “singleness of purpose” means that a group will only succeed if all the members focus on a single core problem which they all share. In A.A. meetings, people talk only about alcoholism; in N.A. groups, the members discuss their addiction to other chemical substances; in meetings of Overeaters Anonymous, people only try to deal with their eating disorders, and so on. It makes no sense to take my broken television set to a washing machine repair shop, and then grow outraged when the people there refuse to try to repair it. And it does not matter that “they both work on electricity.” Repairing television sets is a different kind of job from repairing washing machines, and requires a different kind of tool kit and body of knowledge gained from long experience in repairing those particular items. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4467. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Step principles: where did the idea of come from? From: John Lee . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/19/2007 1:50:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: John Lee (johnlawlee at yahoo.com) I don't see the point of trying to determine who started interpreting each Step by using a one-word "principle". It's far afield of the stated purposes and guidelines of the AA History Lovers Site. Those academics who do text interpretation for a living suggest that the preferable technique is to let the text interpret the text. The Basic Textbook of AA doesn't interpret "principles", either by description or definition. The current topic is not an exercise in history, but rather, attribution. It doesn't matter who first interpreted each Step as a one-word "principle". Richmond Walker wrote that the "principles" are the opposite of each member's defects. Presumably, members [at some point] become willing to give up their defects. Richmond suggested that members could effectuate the eviction of defects by practicing the opposite of their defects, until God removed the defect. Richmond's viewpoint is a useful, workable methodology for enlarging spiritual life. John Lee Pittsburgh - - - - From: Glenn C. (glennccc at sbcglobal.net) John, There is man in Fort Wayne, Indiana, who has been writing an AA column in one of their newspapers for quite a few years under the pseudonym of "John Barleycorn," who takes a similar approach. See "The Right Side of the Page," by John Barleycorn: http://hindsfoot.org/barright.html The defects are listed on the left side of the page, and then the person must come up with the opposite, and put that down on the right side of the page. John Barleycorn is deeply influenced by Carl Jung, and so insists that the "dark side" or "shadow" part of our psyche (and of the universe) will always be there. Our job is just to ask each morning, humbly on our knees, to be like the man or woman on the right side of the ledger. - - - - From: "Bruce A. Johanson" (bajohanson at charter.net) Personally I do not think one can track it down to a specific word. These principles have been made up for years. Most, though, consider step two a step of "hope," and if that is true, and I do believe it to be, then step one has to be a step of "hopelessness." In the BB it states that many of us came here self diagnosed as hopeless. It was certainly true in my case and I had my MMPI to back it up! (lol) In all my years of listening to step ones there is another rather common element as well; it is a rather "godless" step. And to Ernie; thank you so much for your book on spirituality. I have had a love/hate relationship with that book for a few years now. One cents worth. BAJ IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4468. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Step principles: where did the idea of come from? From: John Lee . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/19/2007 2:25:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I'd agree with Art's hunches on the background of attempts to portray the Steps as one-word "principles". The discussion is far astray from history. It's trying to find attribution for what's, at most, a highly contrived inter- pretation. Trying to force a one-word interpretation of each Step is just interpetation. If some members like that interpretation, that's nice, but it's not terribly useful. The history of AA is that the early members tried to incorporate ideas and descriptions into the Big Book that would be useful for hopeless drunks. I don't see how interpreting each Step with one word is useful to anyone, let alone a hopeless drunk. john lee pittsburgh IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4469. . . . . . . . . . . . ways of passing on the message From: Aloke Dutt . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/18/2007 1:37:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Here in North India, we've got permission to put up over a thousand posters in every police station of our state. Can I find a design/idea from our past to incorporate in the posters we need to put up now? Like the Jack Alexander article of 1941 (it created a lot of awareness & so many people came in). Has any data ever been generated on the relative effectiveness of various ways of passing on the message of AA? What kind of newspaper insertion, poster, something on the radio really got people calling in? I'll be grateful for any help. Aloke - - - - From the moderator: Might I suggest checking with Mitchell K. (mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com) about some of the highly successful materials used in early Cleveland AA. We know for sure that these Cleveland techniques worked extremely well. There was a period when there were more AA members in Cleveland than anywhere else in the United States. In South Bend, Indiana, the founder of the first AA group, Ken Merrill, was a factory owner and highly successful advertising man, who used a series of Christmas Eve radio broadcasts over a period of years to turn South Bend into a major center promoting AA growth and the creation of new groups over a large part of northern Indiana and southwestern Michigan. You can find some of the material which Ken wrote at http://hindsfoot.org/nsbend1.html Again, we know that the South Bend techniques worked extremely well, and had a far reaching and very positive effect. One of the two most famous AA prison groups was created by those people, and one of the best known early black AA groups was also created in South Bend. There is some well known Texas material too. Might I say that Tradition Eleven, which says that "Our public relations policy is based on attraction rather than promotion," is talking about maintaining PERSONAL ANONYMITY in ads and posters and so on. It's not saying you can't do it, just that you should not put up a poster with a photo showing the face of a living AA member, and that person's full name, as an advertisement for AA. It is the same issue that shows up in the Twelve Steps & Twelve Traditions, pp. 147-149, in the story of Rule No. 62. Alcoholics tend sometimes to be "promoter" types who want to start grandiose projects with the alcoholic appearing in public as a "famous person" and having tons of money to spend, and with all sorts of other people running around doing all the work (while the alcoholic takes all the public credit). The phrase about "attraction rather than promotion" is targeted at that same kind of egomaniacal, arrogant, bullying, power-mad alcoholic. We have enough problem with them already in AA committees, intergroup offices, and Area Assemblies, without letting them go public! Please spare us all from that! But in old time AA, it certainly never meant that you could not put up notices, posters, ads, and so on. They even held public meetings (which were advertised in their local newspapers) where speakers (including clergy and judges and other people who were neither alcoholics themselves nor AA members) would talk about the AA program and how it could save people's lives. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4470. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: ways of passing on the message From: James Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/19/2007 5:04:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Aloke "Can I find a design/idea from our past to incorporate in the posters we need to put up now?" In the early years of AA many newspapers carried an AA message and many papers still carry this message. It stated: - - - - If you want to drink and can that's your business. If you want to stop and can't that's our business. Alcoholics Anonymous - - - - And then it gave the local AA telephone number. Simple but profound. Jim IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4471. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: ways of passing on the message From: Jocelyn . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/19/2007 9:41:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The New York GSO has a Public Information Kit that contains a Public Information Workbook. It has many suggestions on how to get the word out there. You may want to see if your Area or District has a CPC/PI (Cooperation with the Professional Community / Public Information ) coordinator. They are there for just this reason. I am the CPC/PI coordinator for my district and if you would like to e-mail me privately I will be happy to share with you some of the things my District has done and is currently doing. Jocelyn Pittsburgh PA E-mail address (prpllady51 at yahoo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4472. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: ways of passing on the message From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/21/2007 4:46:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: "JOHN e REID" (jre33756 at bigpond.net.au) Dear Trevor, As our World Service Delegate and recent attendee at the Oceania Conference, could you please follow up on this request. We have some magnificently designed and available posters, ideal for police stations which I have put up in police stations and entries to Court Houses up here. We have them available at our Group (the Brisbane Traditions Group) for anyone wanting to put them up and they go out the door every week in good numbers. Glenn C (glennccc at sbcglobal.net) is the facilitator for the AA History Lovers web site through which this enquiry from North India came. The others listed above maybe able to make some suggestions. Keep up the good work. Kind Regards, John R - - - - Message 4469 from: Aloke Dutt (alokedutt at hotmail.com) Here in North India, we've got permission to put up over a thousand posters in every police station of our state. Can I find a design/idea from our past to incorporate in the posters we need to put up now? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4473. . . . . . . . . . . . If Lois said this, what is the source? From: jameskeithboyd . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/20/2007 6:28:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I heard this quote on a cd of a twelve concepts play. They said that it was from Lois W. The quote goes like this: "I strongly encourage you to present all three legacies to the newcomer in their entirety. Right at the beginning when their minds are open. Sometimes I meet people who know something about the steps but think they don't need the Traditions or the Concepts." If any one can tell where it came from that would be great. Thanks IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4474. . . . . . . . . . . . Remember the obvious! Re passing the message From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/21/2007 5:06:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Let's not forget the obvious! I'll preserve the anonymity of the author of this message (grin), who is one of our Past Delegates, but I think his point surely needs to be posted on our Message Board. He writes as follows: It amazes me that we have an office, with paid staff in New York .... commonly known as GSO that spends thousands of dollars annually on PSA's with a special desk called Public Information and another desk called International ..... and no one in this forum would think to mention this .... we have great information that is tried and proven and all it takes to access this is to dial .... 870-212-3400. I would like to see you write something about this and put it up .... thanks IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4475. . . . . . . . . . . . Remember the obvious: get phone number right! From: vvpeachy@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/22/2007 2:59:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Message #4474, from Past Delegate D. B., gave the New York GSO phone number incorrectly as 870-212-3400. - - - - OOPs- that GSO phone number with our world wide experience at each desk needs to switch the area code to 1-212-870-3400. Thanks, SoJersey Ginger Peachy - - - - From: joanee (joanee88 at mac.com) True - but you put the number down wrong -- you switched the order of the 212 and 870 -- dyslexic, perhaps Joanee - - - - From: "Tom" (spebsqsa at att.net) It is .. 212-870-3400 NOT .... 870-212-3400 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4476. . . . . . . . . . . . Eddie Rickenbacker story in the 12&12 From: Debi Ubernosky . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/22/2007 12:37:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Howdy from Texas, AA History Lovers! I get a daily "12x12 quote" via email, and today's was: "Countless times, in as many cities and hamlets, we reenacted the story of Eddie Rickenbacker and his courageous company when their plane crashed in the Pacific. Like us, they had suddenly found themselves saved from death, but still floating upon a perilous sea. How well they saw that their common welfare came first. None might become selfish of water or bread. Each needed to consider the others, and in abiding faith they knew they must find their real strength. And this they did find, in measure to transcend all the defects of their frail craft, every test of uncertainty, pain, fear, and despair, and even the death of one." (Twelve and Twelve, Tradition One, pg. 131) I've always wondered (vaguely) about who Eddie Rickenbacker was, so I Googled him today, and here is what I found: - - - - Adrift at sea One of Rickenbacker's most famous near-death experiences occurred during the service of the United States war effort. In October 1942, Rickenbacker was sent on a tour of the Pacific theater to review conditions, operations, and to personally deliver a secret message to General MacArthur. After visiting bases in Hawaii, the B-17D, 40-3089, in which he was flying went off course hundreds of miles from its first scheduled stop at Canton Island. (The navigation failure was due to an out-of-true octant, which introduced bias in the navigation calculations. The octant had suffered a severe shock in a pre-takeoff incident.) This accident later resulted in improved navigation tools for aircraft, and improved survival gear provided on aircraft. The pilots ditched the plane in the Pacific, dangerously close to Japanese-held enemy territory. For 24 days, Rickenbacker, his friend and business partner, and the crew drifted at sea without food or water aside from an occasional fish and rain. Rickenbacker still suffered from the airline crash, his friend Hans Adamson sustained serious injuries in the water landing, and others in the crew were hurt to varying degrees. The crew's food supply ran out after three days. On Day 8 a seagull landed on Rickenbacker's head. Rickenbacker painstakingly caught it, and the survivors meticulously divided it equally and used some for fishing bait. They lived on sporadic rain water and similar food "miracles." Rickenbacker assumed a role of leadership, encouragement, and browbeating to help the others survive, and encouraged them to turn to the Lord for solace (Psalm 46). According to Rickenbacker, each person on the rafts converted to Christianity after the experience. The U.S. Army Air Forces, unable to find them, intended to abandon the lost crew after searching unsuccessfully for more than two weeks, but Rickenbacker's wife convinced them to extend the search another week. Once again, the press reported that Rickenbacker had died. Navy pilots rescued the surviving members of the crew, suffering from exposure, dehydration, and starvation, on November 13, 1942, off the coast of Island X near Samoa. One serviceman had died and was buried at sea. Rickenbacker completed his assignment and delivered MacArthur's secret message. No one ever made the message public. It should be noted that Rickenbacker initially thought that he had been lost a mere 21 days, and wrote thus in a book about the experience published by Doubleday. It was not until later that he recalculated and corrected the error in his 1967 autobiography. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddie_Rickenbacker - - - - Thought y'all might enjoy this bit of edification today. :) Happy trails, debi ubernosky DOS 11-25-1990 by God's grace and because AA works! IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4477. . . . . . . . . . . . Question about author Julianne Phillips From: diazeztone . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/22/2007 12:12:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does anyone know how to contact: Julianne Phillips, author of the 1974 Alcoholics Anonymous. An Annotated Bibliography 1935-1972? Does anybody have a copy of this book? Has anyone ever seen a copy of this book?? Also looking for photocopy of Barry Leach and the late John L. Norris, authors of "Factors in the Development of Alcoholics Anonymous" in Kissin & Begleiter, editors, Treatment and Rehabilitation of the Chronic Alcoholic. Vol. 5, Plenum Press, NY, 1977. LD Pierce www.aabibliography.com - - - - Note from the moderator: If you go to this site, which is a consolidated catalog used by dealers in rare and used books: http://www.abebooks.com/ You can look for: AUTHOR: Kissin & Begleiter TITLE: Treatment and Rehabilitation of the Chronic Alcoholic There are a number of copies of this volume listed for sale there, at prices ranging from $3 to $10. Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4478. . . . . . . . . . . . Step principles-where did they come from From: buddy4678 . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/21/2007 11:36:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In the forward of the step book (page 15)it states A A's twelve steps are a group of principles, spiritual in their nature, which if practiced as a way of life, can expel the obsession to drink and enable the sufferer to become happily and usefully whole. In other words, the principles are the steps. I was told when I first got sober that the one word principle behind the principles (the steps) was developed in California by an individual who had a sponsee who had difficulty with reading and comprehension and was developmentally challenged. He gave him a simple word to associate with each step as he couldn't understand much else. It is interesting that so many different words have been used for this idea in different parts of the country. The words that were passed onto me, are 1. HONESTY, 2. HOPE, 3. FAITH, 4. COURAGE, 5. INTEGRITY, 6. WILLINGNESS, 7. HUMILITY, 8. LOVE, 9. DISCIPLINE, 10. PERSEVERANCE, 11. AWARENESS (OF GOD) 12. SERVICE. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4479. . . . . . . . . . . . Circuit Speakers From: danbabs46 . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/21/2007 9:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII When did speakers start traveling long distances to carry the message? And were they ever paid? It seems that would be breaking tradition. But I am new so I am not sure. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4480. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Remember the obvious! Re passing the message From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/21/2007 4:21:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Maybe because it is so obvious, The members of AAHL did not need to mention it. That is a given..... or is it? I'd like to know the last time any AAHL saw or heard a PSA on radio or TV, or a magazine article. Perhaps, a flyer distributed by GSO hanging in a public health department office, a doctors office, or in a hospital? In Philadelphia, AA through the Intergroup used to have radio and TV programing regularly. They held town hall meetings that were advertised through newspaper ads. What I'm trying to say is that the AA members of the 1940's did a lot more AA work carrying the message than today. They made sure that magazine articles like the Saturday Evening Post which was originated here in Philadelphia was published. Australian AA put out a series of posters to advertise what we do. They are beautiful. Since I had never seen anything like that here in the USA, I asked Public Information in New York about them when I was there one Friday. They had copies of them in the Public Information office in a pile by the window. I was told they were aware of them. My opinion ....... New York has too much bureaucracy. Posters have to be discussed, a committee must say whether they are needed or not, the delegates approve them, etc. A lot of money has to be spent and then perhaps you'll see a copy that would be tested before its being released. Then the question of how many languages to publish them in. I contacted Australia AA and was given permission to use their posters. New York still hasn't put them out or anything similar to them. I wonder how many people have died waiting to find out that there is a cure to their disease? A longtimer once told me that if you see something in AA that needs to be done, do it! If anyone wants a copy of the posters please e-mail me and I will send you a set. Australian GSO already approved them. Let's get them out there where they can do some good. Since there will be some expense in doing this, please e-mail me only if you are serious in hanging them up where they will do some good. See ya in Phoenix Shakey Mike Gwirtz Philadelphia, Pennsylvania E-mail: (Shakey1aa at aol.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4481. . . . . . . . . . . . The Third Covenant From: dino . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/22/2007 2:22:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Anyone with any information regarding the third covenant and one of the early Interna- tional conventions? - - - - From the moderator, see the following past messages: Message #183 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/183 Message #1699 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/1699 Message #1881 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/1881 The issue at stake was, that a speaker at the First International A.A. Convention in Cleveland in 1950 was trying to argue that the First Covenant (God's first great divine revelation) was through Moses, which had been the foundation of the Jewish religion. The Second Covenant was through Jesus, which had formed the Christian religion. He was trying to argue that A.A. was the "Third Covenant," which meant that he was not only trying to elevate Bill W. and Dr. Bob to the status of Moses and Jesus Christ, but trying to turn A.A. into a new world religion, which would be in competition with all the other religions (like Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, and so on). Ralph Pfau (who wrote the Golden Books under the name of Father John Doe) kept on standing up and shouting that this was total nonsense every time the speaker tried to say anything else. The speaker finally had to leave the room without being able to finish his speech. There was a lot at stake there. If anybody at all had been able to get away with proclaiming at the First International Convention, that A.A. was the new world religion, designed to supplant and replace all the other religions of the world, it would have totally changed the subsequent course of history, and turned A.A. into something totally different from what it in fact is today. Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4482. . . . . . . . . . . . Earl Husband From: dino . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/24/2007 9:53:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does anyone have any detailed information on the late AA historian/archivist Earl Husband from Oklahoma City, Oklahoma? - - - - From the moderator: the only place his name shows up in a search of our back messages is in Message #924 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/924 where Bill Pittman made a reference to "one of the great AA historians, Earl Husband." GFC IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4483. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Earl Husband From: John Wikelius . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/24/2007 10:42:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII What is needed to know? I knew him. He was a friend. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4484. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Third covenant controversy From: edgarc@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/23/2007 3:06:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Any idea who that speaker was, Glenn? Edgar C, Sarasota, Florida - - - - Glenn C., in Message #4481 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/4481 spoke of how one speaker at the First International A.A. Convention in Cleveland in 1950 was trying to argue that A.A. was the "Third Covenant," a new world religion. - - - - Edgar, No, and I'd really love to know. Tex Brown never mentioned the speaker's name, and he died before I got a chance to ask him for more details. And Bill W. did not mention the speaker's name in his own rather discreet account of what happened. Although Bill W.'s account corroborates that it really happened, and that Bill W. appreciated that the fellowship's rejection of this theory was very important. Does anybody have access to any records from that International that might give us more information? Glenn IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4485. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Circuit Speakers From: James Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/22/2007 8:03:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The question on circuit speakers and travel and if they were compensated is very interesting. I always turn to the AA Grapevine and the early issues to see what came up. A letter to the editor in January 1947 complained that groups were inviting doctors to speak at meetings and conventions and not offering to pay their expenses. April 1948 had letters concerning expenses of speakers. Some felt it was like a 12th step call and no expenses should be offered while others felt they should. All opposed paying speakers "fees" which some popular speakers were demanding. June 1948 more of the above. December 1948 on speakers sounding professional. January 1947 letter complaining about how many speakers put down the "normal folks." Title of the letter is "How do they stand us." One of the discussions that drew the most letters was the subject of applause for speakers. Most opposed it. Jim IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4486. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Circuit Speakers From: Debi Ubernosky . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/24/2007 10:13:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Message #4479 from (djbbabs at comcast.net) asked: "When did speakers start traveling long distances to carry the message? And were they ever paid? It seems that would be breaking tradition. But I am new so I am not sure." - - - - Howdy from Texas! Bill Wilson was the first person who traveled long distances to carry the message! :) Have you read his story in the Big Book yet? I don't know about other parts of the country, I only have experience here in Texas. Speakers are not PAID to carry the message. However, a group of alcoholics may get together to plan an event (this planning committee is NOT an AA group or meeting), and rent space somewhere to hold the event, incur costs for putting on the event, and invite other alcoholics to participate. To cover the costs of the expenses, a modest registration fee is charged. There is a standard statement that we use on flyers, etc. that explains this: NOTE: Most associations like to hold conferences/conventions. In AA, a conference/ convention is an important opportunity to share the AA experience in a broad way. There are many AA conferences held around the world. One of the most common misconcep- tions of these gatherings is that they are AA meetings, and since there are "no dues or fees for AA membership," there should be no fee to attend these conferences. Conventions and conferences are special events, not regular meetings. They require months of planning, preparation, and money to present. Since most events are in hotels/convention centers, the facility will require that the group purchase coffee and food. Other expenses include travel and lodging for conference speakers, printing of flyers, programs and schedules, postage and supplies. A large event requires a substantial amount of money. Attendance at a convention/conference is voluntary; furthermore, attending as part of a group is optional, but as responsible AA members, we must pay our own way! AA also has an "AA Guideline" they publish on these types of events, which you can download from http://www.aa.org under the "Services for Members" link. Here's a link to the conferences/conventions/roundups guideline: http://www.aa.org/en_pdfs/mg-04_conferenceandconv.pdf Lastly, I would hardly expect for a person who is asked to come from anywhere as our guest to foot the bill for airline and hotel expenses. Money is not PAID TO individuals who are asked to speak, but the travel costs of their parti- cipation are covered out of courtesy. They give up their vacation time, their family time, etc. in order to participate. A good understanding of the Traditions and Concepts is the best way to dispel any myths about these types of events "breaking tradition." An important lesson in my own recovery has been to GO TO THE SOURCE (the literature) rather than rely on the word of some grumbling member, whether it's a discussion of the steps or the traditions. I try to impress this upon all newcomers - don't trust ME, by golly, read the black stuff in the book! Thanks for my sobriety, Debi Ubernosky DOS 11-25-1990 by God's grace and because AA works! IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4487. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Circuit Speakers From: zcyberchase . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/23/2007 9:31:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Message #4479 from (djbbabs at comcast.net) asked: "When did speakers start traveling long distances to carry the message? And were they ever paid? It seems that would be breaking tradition. But I am new so I am not sure." - - - - Let's see, Bill Wilson traveled to Akron and then to other enclaves of AA. Bill Wilson who was generally broke for at least his first decade of sobriety had travel expenses paid for by the local folks. Searcy used to tell an quaint story of how folks in Texas "borrowed" a car for Bill to drive. AA started in Baltimore when a member in Philadelphia was invited to come stay at a new member's home. Basically the speakers spoke for free but the groups paid their travel expenses. - - - - From: Wendi Turner (wenditurner at earthlink.net) Hotel and meal costs are usually included, and gifts (token gifts) are usually presented, especially at larger conferences. Also, there are travel companies out there that host AA gatherings as part of the travel package, say cruises or Club Med vacations. The featured speaker receives the vacation in barter. Having had sponsors that were "of the circuit" ... any cost they requested wouldn't be enough, in my mind. They spend the weekends away from their lives, friends, families ... in strange cities, sharing a message ... not getting to do errands or pop out to a local hang-out for a bite to eat or just enjoy the comforts of home. Not to mentions the hassles of travel today. - - - - From: "frank d" (frankaaaa2006 at yahoo.co.uk) Speakers like Clancy from California have their travel expenses reimbursed. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4488. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Earl Husband From: dino . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/25/2007 10:56:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII > Message #4483 from "John Wikelius" > nov85@graceba.net (nov85 at graceba.net) > > What is needed to know? I knew him. > He was a friend." - - - - I know he took people through the steps at his kitchen table for years. How long did he do this for? Did he sponsor a lot of people? He seemed rather ahead of his time, no? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4489. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 3rd covenant and Why We Were Chosen From: dino . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/25/2007 11:03:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Was the WHY WE WERE CHOSEN speech delivered by Judge John T. a sampling of some of the philosophy of the 3rd Covenant people? - - - - From Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) glennccc@sbcglobal.net (glennccc at sbcglobal.net) No, that was something different. To see why, let's look at the text of "Why We Were Chosen," which was an address given by Judge John T. at the 4th Anniversary of the Chicago Group October 5, 1943. Text at http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-Why_We_Were_Chosen.html "God in His wisdom has selected a group of men to be the purveyors of His goodness. In selecting them through whom to bring about this phenomenon He went not to the proud, the mighty, the famous or the brilliant. He went to the humble, to the sick, to the unfortunate -- he went to the drunkard, the so-called weakling of the world. Well might He have said to us: "Into your weak and feeble hands I have entrusted a Power beyond estimate. To you has been given that which has been denied the most learned of your fellows. Not to scientists or statesmen, not to wives or mothers, not even to my priests and ministers have I given THIS GIFT OF HEALING OTHER ALCOHOLICS, which I entrust to you .... Success will not always attend your efforts IN YOUR WORK WITH OTHER ALCOHOLICS .... You were selected because you have been the outcasts of the world and your long experience as a drunkard has made, or should make you humbly alert to the cries of distress that comes from THE LONELY HEARTS OF ALCOHOLICS EVERYWHERE." As you can see, the "Why We Were Chosen" speech was NOT saying that A.A. was supposed to be a new world religion, replacing Judaism and Christianity and all the other religions of the world, and bringing salvation to the entire human race. The "Why Were Were Chosen" speech only said that God had given A.A. a special mission to reach out TO ALCOHOLICS -- but ONLY TO ALCOHOLICS -- and teach them how to be freed from alcoholic destruction. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4490. . . . . . . . . . . . A midwestern Anonymity Statement From: Amarct - Home . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/25/2007 1:56:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Would anybody know the origin or development of the following? It is used commonly in the Midwest and was a topic discussion at a meeting on its beginnings. This my first request for information, although a longtime subscriber. Thank you. Andy T. ANONYMITY STATEMENT In closing this meeting let me remind you, you and me, that although no individual has the right to be wrong in his facts, every individual has the right to his own opinions. Please remember that the opinions expressed here are strictly those of the individual. Remember also that ANONYMITY is the spiritual foundation of the A.A. Traditions. The things that you hear here and share here are spoken and shared in confidence. Let them be treated as confidential. If you listen with an open mind, if you try to absorb what you see and hear, you are bound to gain a better understanding of yourself, your problem and a way to better handle that problem. Talk with each other. Reason with each other, but let there be no gossip or criticism of another. Instead please let the love, acceptance, understanding, and companionship of the program grow inside you one day at a time. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4491. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: A midwestern Anonymity Statement From: Jon Markle . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/26/2007 4:48:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Parts of this are read at some meetings here. But, I've never seen it or heard it in this form. It must be a regional adaptation. Jon M. (Raleigh) 9/9/82 On Aug 25, 2007, at 1:56 PM, Amarct - Home wrote: > Would anybody know the origin or development > of the following? It is used commonly in the > Midwest and was a topic discussion at a meeting > on its beginnings. This my first request for > information, although a longtime subscriber. > > Thank you. > > Andy T. > > ANONYMITY STATEMENT > > In closing this meeting let me remind you, > you and me, that although no individual has > the right to be wrong in his facts, every > individual has the right to his own opinions. > > Please remember that the opinions expressed > here are strictly those of the individual. > > Remember also that ANONYMITY is the spiritual > foundation of the A.A. Traditions. The things > that you hear here and share here are spoken > and shared in confidence. Let them be treated > as confidential. > > If you listen with an open mind, if you try > to absorb what you see and hear, you are > bound to gain a better understanding of > yourself, your problem and a way to better > handle that problem. > > Talk with each other. Reason with each other, > but let there be no gossip or criticism of > another. Instead please let the love, > acceptance, understanding, and companionship > of the program grow inside you one day at a > time. > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4492. . . . . . . . . . . . Joe Worden From: Robert . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/26/2007 8:59:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Has any one looked up the bio of Joe? Was he married? Did he work at the New Yorker magazine? Any Siblings? Where did he live? Seems like he had a little to do with the naming of the book and yet we know little about him. Diz Titcher Tallahassee, Florida - - - - From the moderator: THE MYSTERY OF JOE W. Diz, I did a check through the back messages (and the sources to which they pointed) to try to see what we actually know here, and it is fairly confusing. The last name is spelled differently in different AA sources, and there are even suggestions that the last initial might have been V instead of W. The AA sources have the claim in some places that Joe "had been given credit for starting the New Yorker magazine," but in other places say only that he had been a "New Yorker magazine writer." Neither of those last two claims seem to be true. Or at least when I checked out the history of the New Yorker magazine, I couldn't find any name even remotely like his associated with the magazine. Maybe it's buried deeper in the historical documents, but I couldn't find it. Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) - - - - Message #4299 May 16, 1941 - Ruth Hock finds that Joe W. (or V.), credited with coming up with the name Alcoholics Anonymous, has a "wet brain." - - - - Message #3711 In "Pass It On" pg 202 it states: "Bill always said more than 100 titles were considered for the book. The title that appeared on the Multilithed copies was 'Alcoholics Anonymous.' There is some dispute about who first thought up this title; most thought is was Joe W, a New Yorker writer who remained sober only 'on and off.'" - - - - Message #2778 Bill credited NY member Joe W for getting the NY membership to favor the name “Alcoholics Anonymous” for the book. - - - - Message #1705 MEMOIRS OF JIMMY THE EVOLUTION OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS By Jim Burwell "We ... found our name '100 Men' inadequate for we had forgotten the ladies and we already had one girl, Florence Rankin, on the ball. In one or our discussion meetings at Clinton Street other names were brought up for con- sideration. Most prominent of these were "This Way Out," "Exit," "The End of the Road" and several others. Finally we hit on our present name. Nobody is too sure exactly where it came from but it is my opinion that it was suggested by one of our newer members, Joe Worden, who had at one time been considered quite a magazine promotion genius, and who had been given credit for starting the New Yorker magazine. Hank and Bill finally decided on the name "Alcoholics Anonymous" in the latter part of November 1938." - - - - Message #1661 Across the top in Bill's handwriting it says "Ruth Hocks recollections" and is dated Nov. 10, 1955. "During all this time, of course, there was plenty of discussion about a name for the book and there were probably hundreds of suggestions. However, I remember very few --'One Hundred Men' - 'The Empty Glass' - 'The Dry Way' - 'The Dry Life' - 'Dry Frontiers' - 'The Way Out' - This last was by far the most popular. Alcoholics Anonymous had been suggested and was used a lot among ourselves as a very amusing description of the group itself but I don't believe it was seriously considered as a name for the book. More later on this." "By the time the book was mimeographed mostly for distribution in an effort to raise money to carry on and get the book published. There was constant discussion about detail changes with seemingly little hope for unanimous agreement so it was finally decided to offer the book to Tom Uzzell for final editing. It had been agreed, for one thing, that the book, as written, was too long but nobody could agree on where and how to cut it. At that point it was still nameless because Fitz had reported that the selected name of 'The Way Out' was over patented. I remember that during an appointment with Tom Uzzell, we discussed the various name possibilities and he [handwritten insert: Tom Uzzell] immediately - very firmly and very enthusi- astically - stated that 'Alcoholics Anonymous' was a dead wringer both from the sales point of view because it was 'catchy' and because it really did describe the group to perfection. The more this name was studied from this point of view the more everybody agreed and so it was decided. Uzzell cut the book by at least a third as I remember it and in my opinion did a wonderful job on sharpening up the context without losing anything at all of what you were trying to say, Bill, and the way you said it. I really cannot remember who originally thought up the name 'Alcoholics Anonymous ' [Handwritten insert which appears to read 'Joe Worden' and a reference to a handwritten footnote which appears to read 'Joe Worden ... an AA member who just couldn't stay sober.' It does not look like Bill's handwriting.]" - - - - Message #1002 On pg 166 in AACOA: "We considered more than a hundred titles all told. In New York 'Alcoholics Anonymous' had slowly gained in favor. This trend had been helped by the appearance of our first literary light, Joe W., recently scraped out of the Bowery. Years before, he had been one of the founders of a popular and sophisticated magazine. He was all for 'Alcoholics Anonymous.' He made a burning issue out of it and a majority of the New York group rallied around him." - - - - Message #589 Joe W. - came from Bowery, New Yorker magazine writer; supporter of Big Book title Alcoholics Anonymous; sober on & off, (some credit him with drafting chapt "To Wives") (A 166) (P 202) (W 160) - - - - Message #567 Diz Titcher of Tallahassee, Florida is no doubt correct that Joe Worthum, rather than Joe Ward, was the name of the gentleman who coined "Alcoholics Anonymous" as the title of the book. I used "Joe Ward" from a Jim Burwell recording and either Jim did not pronounce Joe's last name correctly or I didn't correctly hear Jim say "Worthum." I will revise my texts to Joe Worthum. Thanks Diz! Ron Long, El Cajon, California - - - - Message #562 I have the name of Joe Worthum as the man who gave the name to the book. His family own the New Yorker Magazine. Diz T. Tallahassee, FL. - - - - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_Yorker "The New Yorker debuted on February 17, 1925, with the February 21 issue. It was founded by Harold Ross and his wife, Jane Grant, a New York Times reporter .... Ross partnered with entrepreneur Raoul H. Fleischman to establish the F-R Publishing Company and established the magazine's first offices at 25 West 45th Street in Manhattan. Ross edited the magazine until his death in 1951." - - - - http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/timeline Harold Ross launches The New Yorker on February 21st, with financial backing from Raoul Fleischmann, the founder of the General Baking Company. Dorothy Parker, Ralph Barton, Alexander Woollcott, Ring Lardner, and Robert Benchley are among the early contributors. Rea Irvin draws the first cover—a mythical, monocled Regency dandy, later dubbed Eustace Tilley, who becomes the face of the magazine. Katharine S. Angell (later Katharine S. White) joins the staff as the magazine’s first fiction editor. - - - - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_New_Yorker_Contributors List of The New Yorker contributors: The following is a list of current and past contributors to The New Yorker, along with the dates they served and their chief areas of interest. There is no "Joe W" or "Joseph W" or any other Joe or Joseph who seems to match up with our AA person. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4493. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Earl Husband From: greatcir@comcast.net> . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/25/2007 1:30:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In late 1998 I began a search for a first printing first edition Big Book. A lot of research lead me to Earl Husband in Oklahoma where others told me Earl would be a reliable and informative source for my book. I live in Nashville, TN. On 1/4/99 I had my first phone conversation with Earl Husband. His phone at the time was ___ ___ ____. He told me he had reached 44 years of sobriety the day before (January 3) and that he was 72 years old. We talked for maybe an hour. He told me about his full Big Book collection which he had (best I can recall) given to an archives center in a state struggling to get an archives started. He knew all the details of AA books and every word change in each Big Book printing as well as extensive details of most of the AA history. Earl told me he currently had three first printing first edition Big Books. The one he thought I should look at first was one he had overseen having the pages treated so they were not brittle and that the entire book had been restored. It was signed by Bill Wilson with a message to Pete (Pete Boggs - apparently a delegate and his wife was Inez). Within a few days I had the book arrive in a plain box and a note that it was worth $7,500!!! I called Earl out of surprise and he said to take my time to make my decision and if I wanted he would ship me the other book to also examine. I told him firmly to not send the other book as I was too nervous with that much responsibility. I had two local book experts look at the book Earl had sent me and both said it was exactly as Earl had described it. I bought the book - naturally being hooked as my name is Pete too. How could I turn down a red Big Book with an inscription to My dear Pete? Earl's mailing address was ________, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma 73112. For some months after I bought the book, Earl sent me items in the mail. First a l etter dated 1/8/61 from Howard Benhoff (could be Bennhoff) to a George (probably George Peters a western Pennsylvania delegate) which mentioned Pete Boggs in the letter thus verifyng Earl's opinion that Bill Wilson had signed my book with the inscription to "My dear Pete" was indeed to Pete Boggs. So Earl did not let up till he had everything he could find about my book in my hands. Then he sent me a black hard back book with the only outside marking being a title on the front of "Daily Reprieve". On the inside first page the is a printed note saying: This book is a gift from: Earl & Jean Husband 3101 N. W. 35th Okla. City, OK 73112 405/943-0746 Earl wrote over this: "To Pete Be kind to yourself and may God Bless Earl Husband 1-3-55" (could be 59 but It looks more like 55). On the back of this page the only printing on it is: "THIS BOOK WAS MADE AND DESIGNED FOR EARL HUSBAND". On the back of the next page is some text saying that :some of the ideas are mine and some are from other sources long forgotten" and it says that there are one liners in the book each with its own message. This page ends with Lyle B. Earl also sent me a tape of an AA talk he had given. I no longer have the tape but assume he did a number of tapes. Earl thus launched me into my love and passion for AA history even though we never personally met. He was a strong program of attraction for me by phone and mail. Pete Kopcsak Nashville IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4494. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Earl Husband From: James Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/26/2007 6:06:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII > I know he took people through the steps at > his kitchen table for years. He explained the program of recovery as HE understood it. > How long did he do this for? 14 years and some 3,000 people showed up at his house on Wednesday evening. > Did he sponsor a lot of people? He believed it was important to be one. > He seemed rather ahead of his time, no? No, he was doing what he found in AA in 1954 when he joined. He knew that he only knew what he knew when he was trying to explain it to to another person. AA works best at the kitchen table. When he and his wife joined they attended a non-denominational prayer group for 5 years. They studied the occult and spiritual literature and developed prayer lives. They also attended a young peoples group and every Sunday morning for 12 years, Earl loaded up his Lincoln and drove 90 miles to the state penitentiary to put on a meeting. I used to go to conferences with him and he would find people in the corners of the coffee rooms and 12 step them. Interesting that Earl had spoken at St. Louis in 1955 and he had not spoken at an AA meeting till I convinced him to come to our conference in Montreal in 1990. Earl set up the Oklahoma state archives and he used to reproduced out of print collections of papers and books and provide them to archives and archivists. One time he told me that he and his wife Jean had not had an argument for 27 years and I thought "bull." It ate at me and I called his house when I knew he was at his BB study group and I told Jean what he had said. She said, "I don't like his politics, I don't like his religion, I think a lot of his friends are nuts, but I give him the right to be wrong." He was the kindest, gentlest human being I have ever met and he was like a father to me. Jim IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4495. . . . . . . . . . . . Mexican Catholics in AA (1 of 6) From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/27/2007 2:43:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Part 1 of 6 "Saints With Glasses: Mexican Catholics in Alcoholics Anonymous" From: John Blair (jblair at wmis.net) - - - - This article is reprinted with permission of the author. A PDF copy is available from me, John, at (jblair at wmis.net) - - - - "Saints With Glasses: Mexican Catholics in Alcoholics Anonymous" Journal of Contemporary Religion, Vol. 20, No. 2, 2005 pp. 217–229 PETER S. CAHN ABSTRACT: Observers of religion in the contemporary United States have interpreted participation in quasi-religious organiza- tions as evidence of dissatisfaction with traditional religious institutions. In Latin America, the principles of Alcoholics Anonymous are associated with Protestant spirituality and membership in the group has been seen as rejection of the Roman Catholic Church. However, instead of abandoning their religious affiliations, Catholic men in one Mexican Alcoholics Anonymous chapter put their new beliefs and practices into the service of the old. They revised both their conception of God and their manner of parti- cipating in fiestas to become better func- tioning Catholics. Introduction In Tzintzuntzan and its neighboring communities in the Mexican state of Michoacaìn, the blue and white triangle inscribed in a circle, the logo of Alcoholics Anonymous, is as ubiquitous as colonial-era Roman Catholic churches. However, in contrast to the staunch Roman Catholicism of central-western Mexico, A.A. emerged from a 1930s Protestant movement based in the United States and retains at its core a relationship with God which is unmediated by saints or clergy. Participants in A.A. reject the hierarchical, scripted character of Catholic liturgy in favor of a more egalitarian, emotional style of assembly that characterizes Protestant worship. A.A. meetings further resemble Protestant churches in their prohibition on all forms of alcohol. Despite the clear association with Protestant beliefs and practices, every member of A.A. in Tzintzun- tzan considers himself a Roman Catholic in good standing. In this article, I examine how members of one Alcoholics Anonymous chapter reconciled their participation in an organization which is closely linked to Protestantism with their enduring commitment to the Roman Catholic Church. This loyalty is all the more significant given the widespread disdain for Protestants, as expressed by many Roman Catholics in Mexico (Cahn 69–72). Understanding how A.A. shapes the faith of its members will contribute to a fuller appreciation of the role quasi-religious organizations play in deepening connections to traditional forms of worship. Although often dismissed as religion 'lite' or cited as evidence for the obsolescence of religious denominations, quasireligious organizations play a significant role in strengthening affiliations to mainstream churches. The men of A.A. in Tzintzuntzan find in their new Protestant-tinged behaviors a means to rehabilitate their weakened Catholic faith. They credit the lessons of A.A. for repairing their frayed relationship with God and their community and thus enabling them to become better Catholics. Roman Catholics in Alcoholics Anonymous Quasi-religious organizations have multiplied in both size and diversity in the past 50 years. (1) Aspects of the health food movement conform to traditional anthropological defini- tions of religion in that they create a symbolic ordering of the universe, although they lack a unified set of ritual behaviors (Dubisch; Hamilton). Direct selling companies like Amway and Mary Kay Cosmetics invoke religious principles in a business setting as a way to reintegrate family and work lives (Biggart; Bromley). Twelve-step programs in particular have attracted scholarly attention for their religious characteristics (Chalfant; Lester; Minnick). There is general agreement that Alcoholics Anonymous fits the definition of a quasi- religious organization (Jones; Rudy and Greil; Whitley). While none of these groups claims to be a religion, it is clear that they borrow consciously from the ideology and practices of established churches. For the first two years of its existence, Alcoholics Anonymous operated in the United States from within the Oxford Group, an evangelical Protestant organization that foregrounded the experience of conversion (Stafford 16). In 1937, Alcoholics Anonymous began to meet separately from the Oxford Group using a modified set of their principles that retained the focus on self-examination and the attainment of a 'changed life' through stages, which eventually became codified as A.A.'s Twelve Steps. However, A.A. leaders tempered the aggressive proselytizing and absolutist traits of the Christian group to fit the particular needs of alcoholics (Alcoholics Anonymous 74). Even as they distanced themselves from the Oxford Group and gained popularity, A.A. counted no Catholic members in any of its chapters for two years (Kurtz 47). Alcoholics Anonymous first appeared in Mexico in the mid-1950s, and, despite its early association with Protestantism, mushroomed to 4,000 chapters in the predominantly Roman Catholic country by 1981 (Sutro 182). Although numbers for such a decentralized organization can be difficult to verify, estimates say that membership in Alcoholics Anonymous grew eighteen fold between 1953 and 1990 to reach nearly two million people worldwide. The bulk of this growth has come in Latin America, which accounted for just 5.7% of A.A. groups in 1965, but over 26% of A.A. groups in 1988 (Makela et al. 29). Every year, the national Alcoholics Anonymous convention draws more than 30,000 members from all over Mexico (Hecht). One A.A. leader I spoke with in 1999 estimated that over 1,000 groups operated in the state of Michoacaìn alone, including groups devoted to women and youth. When I began fieldwork in Tzintzuntzan in 1998, the community of only 3,000 inhabitants supported four chapters of Alcoholics Anonymous and two more within easy commuting distance. The oldest group claimed to be nearly 20 years old. During my 15 months of fieldwork, which ended in 2002, the four A.A. chapters merged into two that met regularly. At the invitation of a member, I attended sessions of Grupo Tanganxoan, which derived its name from a pre- Columbian ruler, during at least one of their three weekly meetings and at many of their special events with other chapters in the area. Grupo Tanganxoan met in a rented room, nearly indistinguishable from the houses on either side of it, except for the heavy curtain obscuring the window and the blue and white A.A. sign hung over the door. Inside, portraits of the AA founders hung behind the lectern and posters with upbeat sayings lined the walls. About 15 men belonged to the group, with a core of between six and ten attending any given session. They ranged in age from young husbands to grandfathers and in profession from farmers to civil servants. Meetings lasted two hours and always followed the same pattern: prayer, readings from the Big Book of A.A. personal stories, and collection of alms, followed by informal socializing. Despite the focus on individual recovery, the ritualized structure and respectful camaraderie between members underscored the importance of group solidarity. Family members rarely intruded on the men while they were in a session nor did members from other groups visit, except during anniversary events. One member confided to me in an interview that he would be happy to meet with the group seven days a week, so comforting did he find the presence of his colleagues. All the men in Grupo Tanganxoan and the other chapters in Tzintzuntzan were Roman Catholic and, although they readily praised the Protestant-inspired underpinnings of A.A., they revealed no desire to leave their religious denomination. On the contrary, they spoke frequently of how participation in A.A. had enabled them to become more devoted Roman Catholics. Their testimonials during meetings narrated a transformation in their lives, which used the vocabulary of religious conversion, although the end state was not a radically changed outlook, but a more proper perform- ance of their expected roles. (2) Through A.A. they learned that their earlier way of life may have given them a fleeting sense of satisfaction, but it prevented them from fulfilling their responsibilities to their families and community. Correcting their destructive ways required treating the period of drunkenness as an aberration and their sobriety as a return to acceptable behavior. Two influences in A.A., one ideological and the other practical, facilitated renewed commitment to their natal church. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4496. . . . . . . . . . . . Mexican Catholics in AA (2 of 6) From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/27/2007 2:45:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Part 2 of 6 "Saints With Glasses: Mexican Catholics in Alcoholics Anonymous" From: John Blair (jblair at wmis.net) - - - - Renewing Faith in God The drunkalogue or historial is the primary way members of A.A. publicly affirm their acceptance of group beliefs (Cain; Greil and Rudy, "Conversion" 20). While unscripted and often laced with profanities, these speeches conformed to a basic pattern which is the result of both repetition and coercion (Brandes 78–9). They usually lasted from five to 15 minutes and were delivered from behind a podium with some formality, including the standard exchange of greetings with the audience and the identifier, "My name is So-and-so and I am an alcoholic". The most common subjects of the testimonies were the retelling of past mishaps under the influence of alcohol, the damage drinking inflicted on the member's family, and how he came to A.A. and found a measure of self-discipline through group support. However, spiritual themes also appeared frequently in the autobiographical speeches and I analyzed 74 drunkalogues given over 17 meetings of Grupo Tanganxoan. I supplemented these data with unstructured interviews with core members of the group. Nearly as common as mention of alcohol-driven embarrassments were discussions of a superior being. The Twelve Steps, while inclusive of all faiths, underscore the importance of members acknowledging their own fallible humanity and submitting themselves to the benevolence of God. In fact, alcohol merits only one mention in all the Twelve Steps, while six of the steps refer to a powerful deity. A.A.'s innovation was to add, in italics, "as we under- stood Him" to the call for a surrender to God. This modifier signaled A.A.'s ecumenicism, but made explicit that belief in some Higher Power was imperative for success in the group. (3) Drunkalogues in Tzintzuntzan incorporated this emphasis on a Higher Power. 30 of the 74 drunkalogues related how the principles of A.A. enabled members to discard the image of God implanted in their childhoods and to forge a new relationship with the divine appropriate to their adult lives. Alcoholics had felt little attachment to the Roman Catholic Church before joining A.A. and had assimilated church doctrine only superficially. Arsenio, one of the leaders of Grupo Tanganxoan, summed up his lack of faith before joining A.A. in one narrative before the group: "My parents are Catholic. They transmitted to me what's good and bad. I was lazy. I felt a spiritual emptiness. I used to go to the temple, ask God for help, but I didn't see that He gave me the capacity to choose, and I took the easy path. I had a sickness of the soul and had to be cured spiritually first." A companion in the A.A. group offered similar thoughts about how his religious devotion before joining A.A. was incomplete: "I thought I was a Catholic, but it was only superficial. I thought it was sufficient to make the sign of the cross. But I was a hypocrite. I would ask God to give me money." One man used to confess, he told the group, but would lie to the priest about his drinking. Another man admitted that before becoming a member of A.A. he would go to Mass, but instead of listening to the priest, he would ogle the women. Alcohol desensitized them to the rigors of religious belief, leaving them with a selfish, child-like understanding of God. The spiritual principles of Alcoholics Anonymous, with its emphasis on surrender to a Higher Power, restored humility to the men's relationship with God so that they could reconcile their earlier unease with the Roman Catholic Church. Before joining A.A. many men had sought intervention from Roman Catholic saints to cure their alcoholism, promising them veneration in exchange for divine help. This state of being `pledged' to a saint for a particular period of time is common throughout Mexico (Gutmann 186), even if it rarely achieves its desired outcome. Anecdotes in the Big Book teach that instead of placing demands on a superior being, alcoholics must follow His plan for their lives. "We're like the kid who gives Santa Claus an impossible list", one member said during his testimony to the group. "We ask for healthy children, success at work, but we never ask Him to do His will. Faith is trust, not a challenge." Alcohol had made the men feel strong and proud with little need for God, yet such bravado amounted to hubris in the eyes of A.A. Pride, the Big Book warns, exacerbates the sickness of alcoholism by preventing the drinker fromconfronting his fallibility. Instead of seeing himself as God, the A.A. member should open himself to the wishes of an omnipotent Higher Power. A Roman Catholic priest who spoke at an Alcoholics Anonymous assembly near Tzintzuntzan commented on how his partici- pation in A.A. had reshaped his relationship with God. He admitted that before coming to A.A., he felt he retained control over his consumption of alcohol. At every baptism, wedding or funeral he officiated over, the guests would always offer him alcohol, but he reasoned that transubstantiated wine would not harm his health. When he finally recognized his debility, he found succor in the second step, belief that a Higher Power could restore him to sanity. In A.A., he discovered that his earlier relationship with God had deviated from the ideal: "They taught us as kids to ask God for this, ask for that, but they never told us to listen. Communication is two ways. We've been only informing God, but we don't know His answer. It's like parents who don't know the kids they live with. I like to talk with God. I chat, He responds. My career before A.A. was different from my career after. My conception of God changed when I knew A.A. I had knowledge [saber] of God. With A.A. I have His flavor [sabor]. I feel loved by God now." For this priest, Alcoholics Anonymous meetings became a kind of seminary, teaching him to rework his relationship with God. By acknow- ledging his own flawed faith, the priest did not fault the institution of the Roman Catholic Church; he learned how to become a more fulfilled Catholic. To accept a new, more trusting relationship with God, A.A. members replaced their image of a castigating God with a more compassionate one. A man who had been raised a Catholic gave a testimonial to his colleagues in Grupo Tanganxoan: "The God my parents inculcated in me was punishing. He'd send you to Hell. I didn't believe in Him. Then I put myself in the hands of the Superior Power. I now believe in God, but not the God my parents taught me. He is a fair God." Men felt defiant and demanding in the face of a stern God, but lowered their guard for the Higher Power referred to in A.A. Many men called this new father-child relationship with God a `spiritual improvement'. They reinforced this new-found humility by rotating responsibility for basic chores in the rented meeting space. More than once a man commented in an interview that he never washed dishes at home, but in A.A. he did so willingly. Adopting a more subservient relationship with God also prepared the men in A.A. for a return to participation in the local parish. Men who used to consider going to Mass `a waste of time' began attending regularly. Arsenio framed his new sober life in terms of a return to traditional religion: "Now I'm trying with my same religion, Catholicism, to go back and retake those ideas. I go to temple on Sundays. I confess. The priest helps me. There's no need to change religion." Of course, his return was accompanied by a new understanding of God and a strong conviction to avoid alcohol. The names of many A.A. chapters in Michoacaìn reflect the spiritual renewal that members hoped to experience. Group names like 'New Path,' 'New Living,' 'New Thoughts,' 'A New World,' 'New Dawning,' 'New Life,' and 'Good Path' convey the optimism that joining a group will lead to an improved life. Staying sober means admitting powerlessness and adopting a new conception of God, changes that allow men to reshape and strengthen their Catholic faith, while helping them conquer addiction. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4497. . . . . . . . . . . . Mexican Catholics in AA (3 of 6) From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/27/2007 2:46:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Part 3 of 6 "Saints With Glasses: Mexican Catholics in Alcoholics Anonymous" From: John Blair (jblair at wmis.net) - - - - Reclaiming the Fiestas On an ideological level, men in Alcoholics Anonymous could appreciate the benefits of their renewed relationship with God, but on a practical level, sobriety was difficult to sustain. Success in A.A. required members to end contact with the amigos de la botella or 'bottle buddies' who had accompanied and encouraged their drinking. While they gained new friends through their participation in A.A., men could not avoid interacting with drinkers outside the group meetings. In particular, 13 of the 74 drunkalogues addressed the worry that involve- ment in the robust cycle of Roman Catholic celebrations would provide opportunities for backsliding in the effort to avoid drinking. Skipping the fiesta revelry was too radical a step, so men used their time in A.A. to discuss ways to observe Roman Catholic rituals without the debilitating effects of excessive alcohol consumption. As with other Roman Catholics in Tzintzuntzan, the members of Grupo Tanganxoan spoke animatedly about the fiesta cycle, one of the few outlets for entertainment in a community with- out a bar, movie theater or full-time restaurant. Often they expressed with pride how Tzintzun- tzan had maintained its 'traditions' and included in their testimonies references to past and future fiestas. Invariably, these memories of fiesta participation featured stories of drinking to excess. Arsenio explained to me in a conversation after one meeting, "As you know, we're very tradi- tional in this town. Fiestas and more fiestas. On a fiesta day, I wouldn't realize that I was no longer drinking socially, but in exaggeration. Even if I didn't have any money, I'd drink." Another man recounted to the group how he got drunk on the alcohol-laced punch sold during the Day of the Dead celebration, then awoke the next day in the cemetery with his feet in a bonfire. Even in less public family life-cycle rituals, the temptation to drink was too great. "When my father died, I said I wouldn't drink", recalled one A.A. member in his testimony. "But after we buried him and had the funeral, I wanted to thank all the people who helped me. How did I repay them? Two big bottles of brandy. I also drank to accompany them." Similarly, the cementing of godparenthood ties or the acceptance of a religious office involved the exchange of bottles of alcohol. To reject the proffered rum or brandy was to deny the responsibility of the position (Bunzel 373). Nor could the alcoholic count on social stigma to curb his drinking habits. Drunkards occasion little scorn in many Mexican communities and even serve positive roles as social commentators (Dennis; Maccoby; Selby). Ritualized drinking may reinforce group solidarity (Madsen and Madsen; Taylor). Despite the prominence of alcohol in nearly all ritual celebrations, few A.A. members ever considered sitting out the fiestas. Their goal was not to avoid fiestas, but rather to learn how to participate in them without risking inebriation. Strategies for meeting this challenge occupied much of the conversation in group meetings. Warnings against accepting 'the first drink' emphasized how sobriety could be achieved by the simple refusal of a single drink, preventing the impaired judgment that led to second and third drinks. By dividing a larger goal into smaller, more easily attainable tasks, A.A. members regained power over a seemingly uncontrollable addiction. Testimonials in Grupo Tanganxoan illustrated practical ways to enjoy the benefits of fiesta conviviality without the potential dangers. Members disabused them- selves of the idea that only by consuming alcohol could they have a good time at a fiesta or cement a ritual tie. The most popular strategy for enjoying a fiesta without alcohol was to substitute soda for the traditional cup of rum. (4) This substitution gave men in A.A. additional confidence that they could participate in the fiestas without risking their sobriety. To members of A.A., the ideal person was not the teetotaler, but the social drinker, someone who could drink in communal situations, but had the ability to stop before the harmful effects of alcohol became evident. They did not con- demn those neighbors who sold and purchased alcohol, focusing their efforts on increased self-discipline. Since they had already demonstrated their lack of self-control, men in A.A. had only abstinence as an option for recovery. Shortly before a traditionally raucous fiesta, one man remarked in a speech to the group, "Corpus Christi is coming up. Last time I was good and crazy. I've never been sober during a Corpus. This year we'll see how it is." Attending a fiesta made it much more difficult to refuse the first drink, but he hoped that the support he received in A.A. would enable him to take part in the religious celebration with only a soft drink. For another member, respecting the religious customs of the community was as important as restoring his own health. As Corpus Christi approached, he took the podium: "We should celebrate Corpus. I never refuse to give contributions for religious fiestas. I give with pleasure. Money didn't matter to me when I went to bars, why should it matter to me to pay for music for the Lord?" Many in Tzintzuntzan felt that the growing presence of Protestant churches, whose leaders advocated withholding financial contributions for community fiestas, threatened the vitality of public celebrations, which rely on shared expenses. Even as they came to adopt a new form of spirituality, participants in A.A. continued to value the observance of their Roman Catholic heritage, of which the fiestas are a central part. A veteran of the group spoke about how he had benefited from attending the sessions: "I depend on this as I depend on religion. I confess all my errors to the priest since it's the most mortal sin to receive the Lord without confessing all. Here too I have to confess all my errors. Here they talk to us of good things. When I came here and saw the pictures of the founders, I thought, "I've never seen a saint with glasses before!" His comments drew laughter from the audience. Displaying the portraits of the founders above the lectern echoed the placement of saints' images in a Catholic church. For this man, his A.A. colleagues were confessors and Bill W. and Dr. Bob his saints. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4498. . . . . . . . . . . . Mexican Catholics in AA (4 of 6) From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/27/2007 2:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Part 4 of 6 "Saints With Glasses: Mexican Catholics in Alcoholics Anonymous" From: John Blair (jblair at wmis.net) - - - - Alcoholics Anonymous and Religious Conversion As quasi-religious organizations increase in popularity, scholars have begun to analyze the impact that such rapid growth on the margins of the religious landscape will have for how people profess their faith. A large survey project interviewed over 1,000 people in the United States who belonged to small groups like Bible studies and twelve-step programs. The researchers concluded that the limited scale of small groups belied their outsized impact on the country's spirituality. "They are dramatically changing the way God is understood. God is now less of an external authority and more of an internal presence" (Wuthnow, Sharing the Journey 3). Participants in small groups, many of which qualify as quasi-religious, have refashioned their faith to make it more relevant to their daily lives. With the emphasis on the pragmatic came a decline in the importance of explicit doctrines and traditional denominations. Alcoholics Anonymous and other quasi- religious groups consciously refer to themselves as broadly 'spiritual' rather than narrowly 'religious.' This inclusive, anodyne tone has come to characterize many contemporary religious experiences, some observers contend. Wolfe (3) describes how in his visits to the fast-growing mega churches in suburban North America, "talk of hell, damnation, and even sin has been replaced by a non-judgmental language of understanding and empathy." (5) As personal satisfaction has replaced denominational loyalty, believers have become more likely to switch between churches in pursuit of the most effective spiritual therapy. The popularity of quasireligious self-help groups has encouraged a generation of seekers, 'spiritual tourists' who roam from destination to destination, collecting souvenirs, but never putting down roots (Roof). Greil and Robbins (16) confirm this view by arguing that "The growing appeal of quasi- religion suggests that large numbers of people are not finding satisfaction with the trans- cendent worldviews offered by many of their traditional religious options. . . ." The prolif- eration of quasi-religious groups, some argue, exemplifies how religion has become discon- nected from particular institutions and has come to resemble secular pursuits of individual satisfaction (Beckford). Ethnographic evidence from Tzintzuntzan, Mexico, suggests that participation in a quasi-religious organization like Alcoholics Anonymous does not represent dissatisfaction with traditional religious institutions. The image of spiritual seekers may describe the North American baby boomers who pursue self-fulfillment without respect for prior church affiliations, but in Mexico, members of A.A. remain committed Roman Catholics, even as they adapt the ideology and practice of their religion. This is not to deny that restless searchers exist, but to suggest that people join quasi-religious groups for a variety of reasons, not all of which result from dissatisfaction with existing religious options. For the men of A.A., the group offered a pragmatic solution to a problem that participation in Catholic fiestas exacerbated. However, their testimonies to their peers did not fault the Roman Catholic Church for making alcohol such a central part of the sacraments and celebrations. Instead, the Twelve Steps encouraged the men to view their lack of control over drinking as a personal defect that only a spiritual reorientation could correct. (6) In Latin America, where a significant difference between Roman Catholics and evangelical Protestants is that the latter abstain from alcohol, any teetotaler risks being labeled a religious convert. An early observer of the growth of Protestantism in a Guatemalan Maya community found that "joining a Protestant sect was analogous to becoming a member of Alcoholics Anonymous" (Nash 50). Since the damaging effects of alcoholism prevented many Maya from achieving economic independence, conversion offered a supportive environment in which to stop drinking. Similarly, in Brazil, Chesnut has argued (58) that pervasive alcoholism among the Roman Catholic poor underlies growth in Pentecostal churches where twelve-step support groups are in short supply. Anthropologists have also described conversion as a strike against the abusive consequences of alcohol in traditional religions (Belaunde; Swanson). Kearney found that of 23 Protestant converts in a rural Mexican community, 20 were middle-aged men with histories of problem drinking. "The strong social coercions to drink pose a painful dilemma to many men" (150). The assumption has been that without the option of secular support groups, Catholic drinkers who wish to quit must seek an alternative space of worship through religious conversion. Alcoholics Anonymous becomes the functional equivalent of joining a Protestant church. In his study of an Alcoholics Anonymous chapter in Mexico City, Brandes acknowledges the pervasive structural and symbolic similarities between A.A. and Protestantism. However, he concludes that rather than coming to change their religious affiliation, members found parallels between their participation in A.A. and their long- standing involvement in the Roman Catholic Church. "To join A.A. in working class Mexico City," he writes (52), "does not mean aban- doning one's religious tradition. It means adapting it to the circumstances at hand." A similar process of adaptation occurred among A.A. members in Tzintzuntzan, where the decorated walls of the meeting room -- like stations of the cross -- and collective affirma- tion of core beliefs further underscored the similarity to the celebration of Mass in Roman Catholic Churches (Wilcox 45). The ambiguous position of Alcoholics Anonymous between sacred and secular enables groups to cultivate loyalty among members, who may choose to emphasize either the religious or non-religious qualities at different times. This ambiguity has enabled many Roman Catholics to claim congruence between their faith and the principles of Alcoholics Anonymous. A Catholic nun (Monahan) credits A.A. for deepening her spiritual life and a Franciscan priest (Davis) notes parallels between the Twelve Steps and the spiritual exercises of Saint Ignatius. Another Catholic, this one so disaffected from his natal church that he attended his first A.A. meeting only because it took place in a Presbyterian -- not a Catholic -- church, discovered a new appreciation for the Roman Catholic Church through his involvement in A.A. ("New Wine"). Even the National Catholic Reporter, an independent Catholic news magazine, declared that Alcoholics Anonymous is consistent with Catholic doctrine. The article praised the practical goals of A.A.'s mission, calling it "spirituality with its sleeves rolled up" in the tradition of Liberation Theology (Unsworth). IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4499. . . . . . . . . . . . History of conference-approved pamphlets on sponsorship From: feelgoodcp . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/27/2007 9:45:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Greetings, I hope this is the correct place to post this question. Does anyone have the past pamphlets (conference –approved) that have been published by G.S.O. on sponsorship? We are interested in what has taken place in the revisions. For example (concerning a totally different pamphlet) the 1965 informal handbook The A.A. Group was replaced by the AA group Pamphlet. Both cover similar topics as what is the difference between an AA group and a meeting. The texts are far different in answering that question. This is the voice of AA, I believe, AA has a voice and it speaks through its literature. I would like to trace the voice of AA on Sponsorship through its literature see what changes and revisions have taken place. So if anyone has the older pamphlets (on sponsorship, conference approved) in PDF and can send them too me I would be grateful. All comments welcome as well. Thanks Gary My e-mail address is: (feelgoodcp at gmail.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4500. . . . . . . . . . . . Mexican Catholics in AA (5 of 6: Conclusion, Notes) From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/27/2007 2:49:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Part 5 of 6: Conclusion and Notes "Saints With Glasses: Mexican Catholics in Alcoholics Anonymous" From: John Blair (jblair at wmis.net) - - - - Conclusion Social scientists who analyze changing religious patterns in the United States and Western Europe have found that the growing popularity of quasi-religious groups has caused a funda- mental shift in the way believers profess their faith. Searching for a personalized, therapeutic experience of the divine has replaced loyalty to a specific denomination. In a 1955 poll, only one in 25 adults in the United States still adhered to the faith of his childhood. By 1985, as many as one in three adults had converted his religion (Wuthnow, Restructuring 88). Scholars have attributed the rise of small groups with a quasi-religious nature like Alcoholics Anonymous to the spiritual searching of self- reflexive believers, who prefer cobbling together a soothing, therapeutic faith over loyalty to a single doctrine that speaks of sin and sacrifice. In turn, the success of these quasi-religious groups has exerted pressure on traditional churches to modify their message and form of worship by adopting similarly empathetic tones. However, these conclusions have been based almost entirely on evidence from mainstream churchgoers in the United States. Research with quasi-religious groups like Alcoholics Anonymous from outside the United States shows how their popularity may be promoting a return to traditional church membership. Even as the religious arena in Latin America becomes increasingly heterogeneous and 'upstart' Protestant churches strive to tailor their worship services to a media-savvy audience, identification with the Roman Catholic Church remains steadfast. Since the 1980s, Tzintzuntzenþos have been able to worship in organized churches outside the centuries old Catholic parish. While several families have joined congregations of Jehovah's Witnesses and Pentecostals, the overwhelming majority continues to identify with the Roman Catholic Church. The men of Grupo Tanganxoan have all suffered crises that they were both physically and spiritually unprepared to confront. Catholicism does not condone alcoholism, but its sacralization of wine undermines any program of strict abstemiousness. (7) Through the literature and activities of Alcoholics Anonymous, members achieved a spiritual adjustment that helped them to control their drinking. At the same time, the quasi-religious setting of A.A. encouraged them to adopt both a new conception of God and a recognition of their own fallibility. The more humble relation- ship with the divine that they fostered in A.A. enabled men to re-establish their frayed connections with the Roman Catholic Church. Adherence to A.A. principles did not automati- cally prohibit enjoyment of disorderly celebra- tions. The testimonials in A.A. meetings offered suggestions for how men could observe fiesta rituals without consuming alcohol. Rather than seeing Catholic Mexicans' participation in A.A. as a form of religious conversion, it should be viewed as a redoubling of their traditional faith. Quasi-religious organizations like Alcoholics Anonymous have gained popularity around the world, usually by enhancing personal experi- ences of the sacred and providing a therapeutic service. However, the proliferation of such groups does not necessarily betoken a privatized search for faith, born from dissatisfaction with existing religious institutions. In some cases, participation in a quasi-religious organization serves as a vehicle for strengthening commit- ment to more traditional churches. Roman Catholic members of Grupo Tanganxoan took advantage of Alcoholics Anonymous meetings to arrive at a revised conception of their faith and a new understanding of what it meant to be a Catholic man. - - - - Peter S. Cahn is an associate professor of anthropology at the University of Oklahoma, Norman, and author of All Religions Are Good in Tzintzuntzan: Evangelicals in Catholic Mexico (University of Texas Press, 2003). CORRESPONDENCE: University of Oklahoma, Department of Anthropology, 455 West Lindsey, Room 521, Norman, OK 73019-0535, USA. NOTES 1. Defining quasi-religious organizations poses the same challenges as arriving at a definition of religion. Greil and Rudy ("Margins of the Sacred") propose a 'subjective' approach. Rather than demarcating what is religious from what is not, they prefer to define religion from the point of view of the people who are engaged in what they consider to be religion. Taken from an emic perspective, quasi-religious organiza- tions are those "entities whose status is anoma- lous given contemporary folk definitions of religion" (Greil and Rudy 221). Groups like Alcoholics Anonymous, Scientology, and Weight Watchers are 'sort-of' religious accord- ing to their participants. While these groups preach disciplined activity to achieve a morally superior state, they do not advocate veneration of any non-empirical being. 2. The typical story of joining A.A. resembles a religious conversion in that a profound crisis precedes the acceptance of a Higher Power. The drinker cannot escape from this emotional and physical nadir without outside help. Faced with this predicament, an alcoholic will experience comfort only once he allows God into his life. In the supportive environment of A.A., the alcoholic can reinterpret his past suffering as meaningful in that it led him to be "born again" (Bateson). 3. While A.A. holds that this image of God is malleable, the God invoked in meetings invari- ably reflects the New Testament God, forgiving and non-judgmental, never a stern enforcer of laws. 4. The debilitating effects of alcoholism have provoked similar movements across Latin America. In the community of San Pedro Chenhaloì, Chiapas, women have substituted soft drinks for rum in traditional rituals and emphasized native language and clothing as symbols for community solidarity (Eber). Practitioners of indigenous religion in Peru recognize that soda has the same animating essence as alcoholic beverages and allow the replacement of Coca-Cola for beer in offerings to the Mountain Lords (Allen 33). Alarmed by the high rates of liver disease and deaths linked to alcoholism among Latinos in the United States, a handful of Cinco de Mayo festival organizers have taken the drastic step of banning alcohol at their events (Gogek). 5. Antze (174) notices a direct parallel between the A.A. conception of drinking and Martin Luther's model of sin and salvation. According to A.A. teachings, alcoholism is not a sin, but like Original Sin, it can be resisted only by suppressing personal pride and committing to divine guidance. 6. Increasingly, the abdication of personal responsibility embodied in A.A.'s religious rubric has alienated many alcoholics. Three new groups in the United States, Rational Recovery, Secular Organization for Sobriety, and Women for Sobriety, base their philo- sophies on tracts like Emerson's "Self-Reliance" that advocate choice and competence as ways to conquer alcoholism. The founder of Secular Organization for Sobriety explained the difference between his group and A.A.: "We credit ourselves for achieving sobriety . . . Some people in SOS are quite religious, but they don't believe in an intervening God who would come down and stir their coffee for them" (Gelman). 7. A Roman Catholic A.A. member in Toronto recalled to Petrunik (34) that when he confessed his drinking problem, his priest responded, "You're not alcoholic. Come, let's have a drink and talk about it." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4501. . . . . . . . . . . . Mexican Catholics in AA (6 of 6: References) From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/27/2007 2:50:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Part 6 of 6. References "Saints With Glasses: Mexican Catholics in Alcoholics Anonymous" From: John Blair (jblair at wmis.net) - - - - REFERENCES Alcoholics Anonymous. Alcoholics Anony- mous Comes of Age: A Brief History of AA. New York: Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, 1983. Allen, Catherine J. The Hold Life Has: Coca and Cultural Identity in an Andean Community. Washington, DC: Smithsonian Institution P, 2002. Antze, Paul. "Symbolic Action in Alcoholics Anonymous." Ed. Mary Douglas. Constructive Drinking: Perspectives on Drink from Anthro- pology. Cambridge: Cambridge UP, 1987. 149–81. Bateson, Gregory. "The Cybernetics of Self: A Theory of Alcoholism." Psychiatry 34 (1971): 1–18. Beckford, James A. "The Sociology of Religion and Social Problems." Sociological Analysis 51 (1990): 1–14. Belaunde, Luisa Elvira. "Epidemics, Psycho- actives and Evangelical Conversion among the Airo-Pai of Amazonian Peru." Journal of Contemporary Religion 15 (2000): 349–59. Biggart, Nicole Woolsey. Charismatic Capitalism: Direct Selling Organizations in America. Chicago: U of Chicago P, 1989. Brandes, Stanley. Staying Sober in Mexico City. Austin, TX: U of Texas P, 2002. Bromley, David G. "Quasi-Religious Corp- orations: A New Integration of Religion and Capitalism?" Ed. Richard H. Roberts. Religion and the Transformations of Capitalism: Comparative Approaches. London: Routledge, 1995. 135–60. Bunzel, Ruth. "The Role of Alcoholism in Two Central American Cultures." Psychiatry 3 (1940): 361–87. Cahn, Peter S. All Religions are Good in Tzintzuntzan: Evangelicals in Catholic Mexico. Austin, TX: U of Texas P, 2003. Cain, Carole. "Personal Stories: Identity Acquisition and Self-Understanding in Alcoholics Anonymous." Ethos 19 (1991): 210–53. Chalfant, H. Paul. "Stepping to Redemption: Twelve Step Groups as Implicit Religion." Free Inquiry in Creative Sociology 20.2 (1992): 115–20. Chesnut, R. Andrew. Born Again in Brazil: The Pentecostal Boom and the Pathogens of Poverty. New Brunswick, NJ: Rutgers UP, 1997. Davis, Kenneth G. Primero Dios: Alcoholics Anonymous and the Hispanic Community. Selinsgrove, PA: Susquehanna UP, 1994. Dennis, Philip A. "The Role of the Drunk in a Oaxacan Village." American Anthropologist 77.4 (1975): 856–63. Dubisch, Jill. "You Are What You Eat: Reli- gious Aspects of the Health Food Movement." Eds.W. Arens, and Susan P. Montague. The American Dimension: Cultural Myths and Social Realities. 2nd ed. Sherman Oaks, CA: Alfred Publishing, 1981. 115–28. Eber, Christine. Women and Alcohol in a Highland Maya Town: Water of Hope, Water of Sorrow. Austin, TX: U of Texas P, 2000. Gelman, David. "Clean and Sober -- And Agnostic." Newsweek 8 July 1991: 62. Gogek, Jim. "Hijacking Cinco de Mayo." San Diego Union-Tribune 5 May 2002. Greil, Arthur L., and Thomas Robbins. "Exploring the Boundaries of the Sacred: Introduction." Eds. Arthur L. Greil, and Thomas Robbins. Between Sacred and Secular: Research and Theory on Quasi-Religion. Greenwich, CT: JAI P, 1994. 1–23. Greil, Arthur L., and David R. Rudy. "Conversion to the World View of Alcoholics Anonymous: A Refinement of Conversion Theory." Qualitative Sociology 6.1 (1983): 5–28. ______ . "On the Margins of the Sacred." Eds. Thomas Robbins, and Dick Anthony. In Gods We Trust: New Patterns of Religious Pluralism in America. New Brunswick, NJ: Transaction, 1996. 219–32. Gutmann, Matthew. The Meanings of Macho: Being a Man in Mexico City. Berkeley, CA: U of California P, 1996. Hamilton, Malcolm. "Eating Ethically: Spiritual and Quasi-religious Aspects of Vegetarianism." Journal of Contemporary Religion 15 (2000): 65–83. Hecht, John. "Alcoholism Soars." The News 7 Nov. 1999: 4. Jones, Robert Kenneth. "Sectarian Character- istics of Alcoholics Anonymous." Sociology 4.2 (1970): 181–95. Kearney, Michael. "Drunkenness and Religious Conversion in a Mexican Village." Quarterly Journal of Studies on Alcohol 31 (1970): 132- 52. Kurtz, Ernest. Not-God: A History of Alcoho- lics Anonymous. Center City, MN: Hazelden, 1988. Lester, Rebecca J. "Let Go and Let God: Religion and the Politics of Surrender in Overeaters Anonymous." Eds. Jeffery Sobal, and Donna Maurer. Interpreting Weight: The Social Management of Fatness and Thinness. New York: Aldine de Gruyter, 1999. 139–64. Maccoby, Michael. "Alcoholism in a Mexican Village." Eds. David C. McClelland, William N. Davis, Rudolf Kalin, and Eric Wanner. The Drinking Man. New York: The Free P, 1972. 232–60. Madsen, William, and Claudia Madsen. "The Cultural Structure of Mexican Drinking Behavior." Quarterly Journal of Studies on Alcohol 30 (1969): 701–18. Makela, Klaus et al. Alcoholics Anonymous as a Mutual-Help Movement: A Study in Eight Societies. Madison, WI: U of Wisconsin P, 1996. Minnick, Ann Marie. Twelve Step Programs: A Contemporary American Quest for Meaning and Spiritual Renewal. Westport, CT: Praeger, 1997. Monahan, Sister Molly. Seeds of Grace: A Nun's Reflections on the Spirituality of Alcoholics Anonymous. New York: Riverhead, 2001. Nash, June. "Protestantism in an Indian Village in the Western Highlands of Guatemala." Alpha Kappa Deltan 30.1 (1960): 49–53. "New Wine: Confessions of a Catholic Alco- holic." America 185.21 (2001): 9. Petrunik, Michael G. "Seeing the Light: A Study of Conversion to Alcoholics Anony- mous." Journal of Voluntary Action Research 1.4 (1972): 30–8. Roof, Wade Clark. Spiritual Marketplace: Baby Boomers and the Remaking of American Religion. Princeton, NJ: Princeton UP, 1999. Rudy, David R., and Arthur L. Greil. "Is Alcoholics Anonymous a Religious Organi- zation? Meditations on Marginality." Sociological Analysis 50 (1988): 41–51. Selby, Henry A. Zapotec Deviance: The Convergence of Folk and Modern Sociology. Austin, TX: U of Texas P, 1974. Stafford, Tim. "The Hidden Gospel of the 12 Steps." Christianity Today 35.8 (1991): 14–19. Sutro, Livingston. "Alcoholics Anonymous in a Mexican Peasant-Indian Village." Human Organization 48.2 (1989): 180–6. Swanson, Tod D. "Refusing to Drink with the Mountains: Traditional Andean Meanings in Evangelical Practice." Eds. Martin E. Marty, and R. Scott Appleby. Accounting for Funda- mentalisms: The Dynamic Character of Movements. Vol. 4. Chicago: U of Chicago P, 1994. 79–98. Taylor, William B. Drinking, Homicide, and Rebellion in Colonial Mexican Villages. Stanford: Stanford UP, 1979. Unsworth Tim. "AA is Spirituality with its Sleeves Rolled up." National Catholic Reporter 20 Apr. 1990: 14. Whitley, Oliver R. "Life with Alcoholics Anonymous: The Methodist Class Meeting as a Paradigm." Journal of Studies on Alcohol 38 (1977): 831–48. Wilcox, Danny M. Alcoholic Thinking: Language, Culture, and Belief in Alcoholics Anonymous.Westport, CT: Praeger, 1998. Wolfe, Alan. The Transformation of American Religion: How We Actually Live Our Faith. New York: Free P, 2003. Wuthnow, Robert. The Restructuring of American Religion: Society and Faith Since World War II. Princeton, NJ: Princeton UP, 1988. Wuthnow, Robert. Sharing the Journey: Support Groups and America's New Quest for Community. New York: Free P, 1994. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4502. . . . . . . . . . . . Different eds. of the Akron Manual (part 1 of 2) From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/27/2007 6:23:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: "Bent Christensen" (bent_christensen5 at yahoo.com) Our group is in the process of translating the Akron pamphlets in Danish. We have a version of the pamphlet called "A Manual for Alcoholics Anonymous" from the internet, which has some sentences and phrases which are NOT in the version of the pamphlet which is currently being sold by the Akron inter- group. The present Akron intergroup version is labeled the "sixth revised edition." In the text below, we have put {curly brackets} around all the words which are in the internet version but NOT in the sixth revised version. Can anyone tell us what our internet version is? Is the internet version the original first edition wording? Or is it second or third edition, or whatever? The person who posted the internet version saysthat he got his copy years ago, and is pretty sure (based on something Bill Lash told him) that it is a much earlier version than the one which the Akron intergroup is now selling, but that he does not remember exactly where he got his copy. He points out though that the internet version clearly dates to a fairly early period in AA history, based on internal evidence (the description of the way various things were done), and that its date could be narrowed down a little further by its statement that there were a dozen or so AA groups in Akron at the time it was being printed. I do feel that some of the missing text is rather valuable, and would like to include the material {in curly brackets below} but if we shall use it we have to know the specific source. - - - - A Manual for Alcoholics Anonymous From AA Group No. 1, Akron, Ohio, 1940 Dr. Bob's Home Group (Editor's Note, 1997: Dr. Bob probably wrote or heavily influenced the writing and distribution of this pamphlet. Dr. Bob was the Prince of 12 Steppers, from the day he achieved permanent sobriety, June 10, 1935, the founding date of Alcoholics Anonymous, until his death, November 16, 1950, carrying the message of A.A. to well over 5000 men and women alcoholics, and to all these he gave his medical services without thought of charge.) FOREWORD This booklet is intended to be a practical guide for new members and sponsors of {new members of} Alcoholics Anonymous. TO THE NEWCOMER: The booklet is designed to give you a practical explanation of what to do and what not to do in your search for sobriety. The editors, too, were pretty bewildered by the program at first. They realize that very likely you are groping for answers and offer this pamphlet in order that it may make a little straighter and less confusing the highway you are about to travel. TO THE SPONSOR: lf you have never before brought anyone into A.A. the booklet attempts to tell you what your duties are by your "Baby," how you should conduct yourself while visiting patients, and other odd bits at information, some of which may be new to you. {The booklet should be read in conjunction with the large book, Alcoholics Anonymous, the Bible, the daily lesson, any other pamphlets that are published by the group, and other constructive literature. A list of suggestions will be found in the back pages of this pamphlet. It is desirable that members of A.A. furnish their prospective "Babies" with this "Manual" as early as possible, particularly in the case of hospitalization.} The experience behind the writing and editing of this pamphlet adds up to hundreds of years of drinking, plus scores of years of recent sobriety. Every suggestion, every word, is backed up by hard experience. {The editors do not pretend any explanation of the spiritual or religious aspects of A.A. It is assumed that this phase of the work will be explained by sponsors. The booklet therefore deals solely with the physical aspects of getting sober and remaining sober.} A.A. in Akron is fortunate in having facilities for hospitalizing its patients. In many communities, however, hospitalization is not available. Although the pamphlet mentions hospitalization throughout, the methods described are effective if the patient is confined to his home, if he is in prison or a mental institution, or if he is attempting to learn A.A. principles and carry on his workaday job at the same time. {If your community has a hospital, either private or general, that has not accepted alcoholic patients in the past, it might be profitable to call on the officials of the institution and explain Alcoholics Anonymous to them. Explain that we are not in the business of sobering up drunks merely to have them go on another bender. Explain that our aim is total and permanent sobriety. Hospital authorities should know, and if they do not, should be told, that an alcoholic is a sick man, just as sick as a diabetic or a consumptive. Perhaps his affliction will not bring death as quickly as diabetes or tuberculosis, but it will bring death or insanity eventually. Alcoholism has had a vast amount of nationwide publicity in recent years. It has been discussed in medical journals, national magazines and newspapers. It is possible that a little sales talk will convince the hospital authorities in your community that they should make beds available for patients sponsored by Alcoholics Anonymous. If the way is finally opened, it is urged that you guard your hospital privileges carefully. Be as certain as you possibly can be that your patient sincerely wants A.A. Above all, carefully observe all hospital rules. It has been our experience that a succession of unruly patients or unruly visitors can bring a speedy termination of hospital privileges. And they will want no part of you or your patient in the future. Once he starts to sober up, the average alcoholic makes a model hospital patient. He needs little or no nursing or medical care, and he is grateful for his opportunity.} Definition of an Alcoholic Anonymous: An Alcoholic Anonymous is an alcoholic who through application of and adherence to rules laid down by the organization, has completely forsworn the use of any and all alcoholic beverages. The moment he wittingly drinks so much as a drop of beer, wine, spirits, or any other alcoholic drink he automatically loses all status as a member of Alcoholics Anonymous. A.A. is not interested in sobering up drunks who are not sincere in their desire to remain completely sober for all time. A.A. is not interested in alcoholic who want to sober up merely to go on another bender, sober up because of fear for their jobs, their wives, their social standing, or to clear up some trouble either real or imaginary. In other words, if a person is genuinely sincere in his desire for continued sobriety for his own good, is convinced in his heart that alcohol holds him in its power, and is willing to admit that he is an alcoholic, members of Alcoholics Anonymous will do all in their power, spend days of their time to guide him to a new, a happy, and a contented way of life. It is utterly essential for the newcomer to say to himself sincerely and without any reservation, "I am doing this for myself and myself alone." Experience has proved in hundreds of cases that unless an alcoholic is sobering up for a purely personal and selfish motive, he will not remain sober for any great length of time. He may remain sober for a few weeks or a few months, but the moment the motivating element, usually fear of some sort, disappears, so disappears sobriety. TO THE NEWCOMER: It is your life. It is your choice. If you are not completely convinced to your own satisfaction that you are an alcoholic, that your life has become unmanageable; if you are not ready to part with alcohol forever, it would be better for all concerned if you discontinue reading this and give up the idea of becoming a member of Alcoholics Anonymous. For if you are not convinced, it is not only wasting your own time, but the time of scores of men and women who are genuinely interested in helping you. II TO THE LADIES: If we seem to slight you in this booklet it is not intentional. We merely use the masculine pronouns "he" and "him" for convenience. We fully realize that alcohol shows no partiality. It does nor respect age, sex, nor estate. The millionaire drunk on the best Scotch and the poor man drunk on the cheapest rotgut look like twin brothers when they are in a hospital bed or the gutter. Tie only difference between a female and a male drunk is that the former is likely to be treated with a little more consideration and courtesy - although generally she does not deserve it. Every word in this pamphlet applies to women as well as men.- THE EDITORS. III A WORD TO THE SPONSOR who is putting his first newcomer into a hospital or otherwise introducing him to this new way of life: You must assume full responsibility for this man. He trusts you, otherwise he would not submit to hospitalization. You must fulfill all pledges you make to him, either tangible or intangible. If you cannot fulfill a promise, do not make it. It is easy enough to promise a man that he will get his job back if he sobers up. But unless you are certain that it can be fulfilled, don't make that promise. Don't promise financial aid unless you are ready to fulfill your part of the bargain. If you don't know how he is going to pay his hospital bill, don't put him in the hospital unless you are willing to assume financial responsibility. It is definitely your job to see that he has visitors, and you must visit him frequently yourself. If you hospitalize a man and then neglect him, he will naturally lose confidence in you, assume a "nobody loves me" attitude, and your half-hearted labors will be lost. This is a very critical time in his life. He looks to you for courage, hope, comfort and guidance. He fears the past. He is uncertain of the future. And he is in a frame of mind that the least neglect on your part will fill him with resentment and self-pity. You have in your hands the most valuable property in the world - the future of a fellow man. Treat his life as carefully as you would your own. You are literally responsible for his life. Above all, don't coerce him into a hospital. Don't get him drunk and then throw him in while he is semi-conscious Chances are he will waken wondering where he is, how he got there. And he won't last. You should be able to judge if a man is sincere in his desire to quit drinking. Use this judgment. Otherwise you will find yourself needlessly bumping your head into a stone wall and wondering why your "babies" don't stay sober. Remember your own experience. You can remember many times when you would have done anything to get over that awful alcoholic sickness, although you had no desire in the world to give up drinking for good. It doesn't take much good health to inspire an alcoholic to go back and repeat the acts that made him sick. Men who have had pneumonia don't often wittingly expose themselves a second time. But an alcoholic will deliberately get sick over and over again with brief interludes of good health. You should make it a point to supply your patient with the proper literature - the big "Alcoholics Anonymous" book, this pamphlet, other available pamphlets, a Bible, and anything else that has helped you. Impress upon him the wisdom and necessity of reading and rereading this literature. The more he learns about A.A. the easier the road to sobriety. Study the newcomer and decide who among your A.A. friends, might have the best story and exert the best influence on him. There are all types in A. A. and regardless of whom you hospitalize, there are dozens who can help him. An hour on the telephone will produce callers. Don't depend on chance. Stray visitors may drop in, bur twenty or thirty phone calls will clinch matters and remove uncertainty. It is your responsibility to conjure up callers. Impress upon your patient that his visitors are not making purely social calls. Their conversation is similar to medicine. Urge him to listen carefully to all that is said, and then meditate upon it after his visitor leaves. When your patient is out of the hospital your work has not ended. It is now your duty not only to him but to yourself to see that he starts out on the right foot. Accompany him to his first meeting. Take him along with you when you call on the next patient. Telephone him when there are other patients. Drop in at his home occasionally. Telephone him as often as possible. Urge him to look up the new friends he has made. Counsel and advise him. There was a certain amount of glamour connected with being a patient in the hospital. He had many visitors. His time was occupied. Out now that he has been discharged, the glamour has worn off. He probably will be lonely. He may be too timid to seek the companionship of his new friends. Experience has proved this to be a very critical period. So your labors have not ended. Give him as much attention as you did when you first called on him - until he can find the road by himself. Remember, you depend on the newcomer to keep you sober as much as he depends on you. So never lose touch with your responsibility, which never ends. Remember the old adage, "Two is company and three is a crowd." If you find a patient has one or more visitors don't go into the room. An alcoholic goes to the hospital for two reasons only - to get sober and to learn how to keep sober. The former is easy. Cut off the alcohol and a person is bound to get sober. So the really important thing is to learn how to keep sober. Experience has taught that when more than three gather in a room, patient included, the talk turns to the World Series, politics, funny drunken incidents, and "I could drink more than you." Such discussion is a waste of the patient time and money. It is assumed that he wants to know how you are managing to keep sober, and you won't hold his attention if there is a crowd in the room. If you must enter the room when there is another visitor, do it quietly and unobtrusively. Sit down in a corner and be silent until the other visitor has concluded. If he wants any comments from you he will ask for them. One more word. It is desirable that the patient's visitors be confined to members of Alcoholics Anonymous Have a quiet talk with his wife or his family before he goes to the hospital. Explain that he will be in good hands and that it is only through kindness to him that his family and friends are asked to stay away. New members are likely to be a little shy. If they find a woman in the patient's room they are not inclined to "let down their hair." The older hands don't mind it, but a new member might unwittingly be kept from delivering a valuable message. IV TO THE NEWCOMER: Now you are in the hospital. Or perhaps you are learning to be an Alcoholic Anonymous the "hard way" by continuing at your job while undertaking sobriety. You will have many callers. They will come singly and in pairs. They may arrive at all hours, from early morning to late night. Some you will like; some you will resent, some will seem stupid; others will strike you as silly, fanatic or slightly insane; some will tell you a story that will be "right down your alley." But remember this - never for one minute forget it: Every single one of them is a former drunk and every single one is trying to help you! Your visitor has had the very problems that you are facing now. In comparison with some, your problems are trifles. You have one thing in common with every visitor - an alcoholic problem. Your caller may have been sober for a week or for half a decade. He still has an alcoholic problem, and if he for one moment forgets to follow any single rule for sober living, he may be occupying your hospital bed tomorrow. Alcoholics Anonymous is one hundred percent effective for those who faithfully follow the rules. It is those who try to cut corners who find themselves back in their old drunken state. Your visitor is going out of his way, taking up his time, perhaps missing a pleasant evening at home or at the theater by calling on you. His motives are two-fold: He is selfish in that by calling on you he is taking out a little more "sobriety insurance" for himself; and secondly, he is genuinely anxious to pass along the peace and happiness a new way of life has brought him. He is also paying off a debt - paying the people who led him to the path of sobriety by helping someone else. In a very short time you too will find yourself paying off your debt, by carrying the word to another. Always bear in mind that your caller not so many days or months ago occupied the same bed you are in today. And here we {might, despite our promise earlier in the booklet,} give you a hint on the spiritual phase of Alcoholics Anonymous. You will be told to have faith in a Higher Power. First have faith in your visitor. He is sincere. He is not lying to you. He is not attempting to sell you a bill of goods. A. A is given away, not sold. Believe him when he tells you what you must do to attain sobriety. His very presence and appearance should be proof to you that the A.A. program really works. He is extending a helping hand and for himself asks nothing in return. Regardless of who he is or what he has to say, listen to him carefully and courteously. Your alcohol-befuddled mind may not absorb all he says in an hour's conversation, but you will find that when he leaves certain things he has said will come back to you. Ponder these things carefully They may bring you salvation. It has been the history of A.A. that one never knows where lightning will strike. You may pick up the germ of an idea from the most unexpected source. That single idea may shape the course of your entire life, may be the start of an entirely new philosophy. So no matter who your caller is, or what he says, listen attentively. Your problem has always seemed to be shared by no one else in this world. You cannot conceive of anyone else in your predicament. Forget it! Your problem dates back to the very beginning of history. Some long-forgotten hero discovered that the juice of the grape made a pleasant drink that brought pleasant results. That same hero probably drank copiously until he suddenly discovered that he could not control his appetite for the juice of the grape. And then he found himself in the same predicament you are in now - sick, worried, crazed with fear, and extremely thirsty. {Your caller once felt that he alone in the world had a drinking problem, and was amazed into sobriety when he discovered that countless thousands were sharing his troubles.} He also found out that when he brought his troubles out of their dark and secret hiding place and exposed them to the cleansing light of day, they were half conquered. And so it will be for you. Bring your problems out in the open and you will be amazed how they disappear. {It cannot be repeated too often: Listen carefully and think it over at great length.} V Now You Are Alone. When you go to the hospital with typhoid fever your one thought is to be cured. When you go to the hospital as a chronic alcoholic your only thought should be to conquer a disease that is just as deadly if not so quick to kill. And rest assured that the disease is deadly. The mental hospitals are filled with chronic alcoholics. The vital statistics files in every community are filled with deaths due to acute alcoholism. This is the most serious moment in your life. You can leave the hospital and resume an alcoholic road to an untimely grave or padded cell, or you can start upward to a life that is happy beyond any expectation. It is your choice and your choice alone. Your newly found friends cannot police you to keep you sober. They have neither the time nor the inclination. They will go to unbelievable lengths to help you but there is a limit to all things. Shortly after you leave the hospital you will be on your own. The Bible tells us to put "first things first." Alcohol is obviously the first thing in your life. So concentrate on conquering it. You could have gone through the mechanics of sobering up at home. Your new friends could have called on you in your own living room. But at home there would have been a hundred and one thing to distract your attention - the radio, the furnace, a broken screen door, a walk to the drug store, your own family affairs. Every one of these things would make you forget the most important thing in your life, the thing upon which depends life or death -- complete and endless sobriety. That is why you are in the hospital You have time to think; you have time to read; you will have time to examine your life, past and present, and to reflect upon what it can be in the future. And don't be in a hurry to leave. Your sponsor knows best. Stay in the hospital until you have at least a rudimentary understanding of the program. There is the Bible that you haven't opened for years. Get acquainted with it. Read it with an open mind. You will find things that will amaze you. You will be convinced that certain passages were written with you in mind. Read the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew V, VI, and VII). Read St. Paul's inspired essay on love (I Corinthians XIII). Read the Book of James. Read the Twenty-third and Ninety-first Psalms. These reading are brief but so important. Read "Alcoholics Anonymous" and then read it again. You may find that it contains your own story. It will become your second Bible. Ask your callers to suggest other readings. And if you are puzzled, ask questions. One of your callers will know the answers. Get your sponsor to explain to you the Twelve Steps. lf he is not too certain about them- he may be new in this work - ask someone else. The Twelve Steps are listed in the back of this booklet. There is no standing still in A.A. You either forge ahead or slip backwards. Even the oldest members, the founders, learn something new almost every day. You can never learn too much in the search for sobriety. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4503. . . . . . . . . . . . Different eds. of the Akron Manual (part 2 of 2) From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/27/2007 6:26:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: "Bent Christensen" (bent_christensen5 at yahoo.com) A Manual for Alcoholics Anonymous (continued) Again, we would appreciate it is someone could tell us what edition of this pamphlet the words in {curly brackets} are coming from. We would like to be sure that we are using a good text of this pamphlet for the Danish translation that we are preparing. - - - - VI NOW YOU ARE OUT OF THE HOSPITAL By this time you should know if you want to go along with A.A., or if you want to slip back into that old headache that you called life. You are physically sober and well -- a bit shaky, perhaps but that will wear off in a short time. Reflect that you didn't get into this condition over night, and that you cannot expect to get out of it in a couple of hours or days. You feel good enough to go on another bender, or good enough to try a different scheme of things - sobriety. You have decided to go along with Alcoholics Anonymous? Very well, you will never regret it. First off, your day will have a new pattern. You will open the day with a quiet period. This will be explained by your sponsor. You will read the "Upper Room," or whatever you think best for yourself. You will say a little prayer asking for help during the day. You will go about your daily work, and your associates will be surprised at you clear-eyed, the disappearance of that haunted look and your willingness to make up for the past. You sponsor may drop in to see you, or call you on the telephone. There may be a meeting of an A.A. group. Attend it without question. You have no valid excuse except sickness or being out of town, for not attending. You may call on a new patient. Don't wait until tomorrow to do this. You will find the work fascinating. You will find a kindred soul. And you will be giving yourself a new boost along the road to sobriety. Finally, at the end of the day you will say another little prayer of thanks and gratitude for a day of sobriety. You will have lived a full day - a full, constructive day. And you will be grateful. You feel that you have nothing to say to a new patient? No story to tell? Nonsense! You have been sober for a day, or for a week. Obviously, you must have done something to stay sober, even for that short length of time. That is your story. And believe it or not, the patient won't realize that you are nearly as much of a tyro as he is. Definitely you have something to say. And with each succeeding visit you will find that your story comes easier, that you have more confidence in your ability to be of help. The harder you work at sobriety the easier it is to remain sober. Your sponsor will take you to your first meeting. You will find it new, but inspirational. You will find an atmosphere of peace and contentment that you didn't know existed. After you have attended several meetings it will be your duty to get up on your feet and say something. You will have something to say, even if it is only to express gratitude to the group for having helped you. Before many months have passed you will be asked to lead a meeting. Don't try to put it off with excuses. It is part of the program. Even if you don't think highly of yourself as a public speaker, remember you are among friends, and that your friends also are ex-drunks. Get in contact with your new friends. Call them up. Drop in at their homes or offices. The door is always open to a fellow-alcoholic. Before long you will have a new thrill -- the thrill of helping someone else. There is no greater satisfaction in the world than watching the progress of a new Alcoholic Anonymous. When you first see him in his hospital bed he may be unshaved, bleary-eyed, dirty, incoherent. Perhaps the next day he has shaved and cleaned up. A day later his eyes are brighter, new color has come into his face. He talks more intelligently. He leaves the hospital, goes to work, and buys some new clothes. And in a month you will hardly recognize him as the derelict you first met in the hospital. No whisky in the world can give you this thrill. Above all, remember this: Keep the rules in mind. As long as you follow them you are on firm ground. But the least deviation - and you are vulnerable. AS A NEW MEMBER, remember you are one of the most important cogs in the machinery of A.A. Without the work of the new member, A.A. could not have grown as it has. You will bring into this work a fresh enthusiasm, the zeal of a crusader. You will want everyone to share with you the blessings of this new life. You will be tireless in your efforts to help others. And it is a splendid enthusiasm! Cherish it as long as you can. It is not likely that your fresh enthusiasm will last forever. You will find, however, that as initial enthusiasm wanes, it is replaced with a greater understanding, deeper sympathy, and a more complete knowledge. You will eventually become an "elder statesman" of A.A. and you will be able to use your knowledge to help not only brand new members, but those who have been members for a year or more, but who still have perplexing problems. And as a new member, do not hesitate to bring your problems to these "elder statesmen" They may be able to solve your headaches and make easier your path. And now you are ready to go back and read Part III of this booklet. For you are ready to sponsor some other poor alcoholic who is desperately in need of help, both human and Divine. So God bless you and keep you. YARDSTICK FOR ALCOHOLICS THE PROSPECTIVE MEMBER of A.A. may have some doubts if he is actually an alcoholic. A.A. in Akron has found a yardstick prepared by psychiatrists of Johns Hopkins University to be very valuable in helping the decide for himself. Have your prospect answer the following questions, being as honest as possible with himself in deciding the answers. If he answers Yes to one of the questions, there is a definite warning that he MAY be an alcoholic. If he answers YES to any two, the chances are that he IS an alcoholic. If he answers YES to any three or more, he IS DEFINITELY an alcoholic and in need of help. The questions: 1. Do you lose time from work due to drinking? 2. Is drinking making your home life unhappy? 3. Do you drink because you are shy with other people? 4. Is drinking affecting your reputation? 5. Have you gotten into financial difficulties as a result of drinking? 6. Have you ever stolen, pawned property, or "borrowed" to get money for alcoholic beverages? 7. Do you turn to lower companions and an inferior environment when drinking? 8. Does your drinking make you careless of your family's welfare? 9. Has your ambition decreased since drinking? 10. Do you crave a drink at a definite time daily? 11. Do you want a drink the next morning? 12. Does drinking cause you to have difficulty in sleeping? 13. Has your efficiency decreased since drinking? 14. Is drinking jeopardizing your job or business? 15. Do you drink to escape from worries or troubles? 16. Do you drink alone? 17. Have you ever had a complete loss of memory s a result of drinking? 18. Has your physician ever treated you for drinking? 19. Do you drink to build up your self-confidence? 20. Have you ever been to a hospital or institution on account of drinking? RANDOM THOUGHTS {NOW THAT YOU ARE SOBER, you naturally feel that you want to make restitution in every possible way for the trouble you have caused your family, your friends - others. You want to get back on the job - if you still have a job - earn money, pay your immediate debts and obligations of long standing and almost forgotten. Money - you must have money, you think. And you also want to make restitution in action in many ways, not financial. If you could wave a magic wand and do all these things you would do it, wouldn't you? Well, don't be in a hurry. You can't do all these things overnight. But you can do them - gradually, step by step. You may safely leave these matters to a Higher Power as you perhaps ponder them in your morning period of contemplation. If you are sincerely resolved to do your part, they will all be adjusted. "Be still and know that I am God."} SOBRIETY IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IN YOUR LIFE, without exception. You may believe your job, or your home life, or one of many other things comes first. But consider, if you do not get sober and stay sober, chances are you won't have a job, a family, or even sanity or life. If you are convinced that everything in life depends on your sobriety, you have just so much more chance of getting sober and staying sober. If you put other things first you are only hurting your chances. YOU AREN'T very important in this world. If you lose your job someone better will replace you. lf you die your wife will mourn briefly, and then remarry. Your children will grow up and you will be but a memory. In the last analysis, you are the only one who benefits by your sobriety. Seek to cultivate humility. Remember that cockiness leads to a speedy fall. IF YOU THINK you can cheat - sneak a drink or two without anyone else knowing it - remember, you are only cheating yourself. You are the one who will be hurt by conscience. You are the one who will suffer a hangover. And you are the one who will return to a hospital bed. Bear constantly in mind that you are only one drink away from trouble. Whether you have been sober a day, a month, a year or a decade, one single drink is a certain way to go off on a binge or a series of binges. It is the first drink - not the second, fifth or twentieth, that causes the trouble. And remember, the more A.A. work you do, the harder you train, the less likely it is that you will take that first drink. It is something like two boxers. If they are of the same weight, the same strength and the same ability, and only one trains faithfully while the other spends his time in night dubs and bars, it is pretty sure that the man who trains will be the winner. So let attendance at meetings be your road work; helping newcomers your sparring and shadow boxing your reading, meditation and clear thinking your gymnasium work and you won't have to fear a knockout at the hands of John Barleycorn. Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.- Matthew VI, 34. Those words are taken from the Sermon on the Mount. Simply, they mean live in today only. Forget yesterday. Do not anticipate tomorrow. You can only live one day at a time and if you do a good job of that, you will have little trouble. One of the easiest, most practical ways of keeping sober ever devised is the day by day plan - the 24-hour plan. You know that it is possible to stay sober for 24 hours. You have done it many times. All right. Stay sober for one day at a time. When you get up in the morning make up your mind that you will not cake a drink for the entire day. Ask the Greater Power for a little help in this. If anyone asks you to have a drink, take a rain check. Say you will have it tomorrow. Then when you go to bed at night, finding yourself sober, say a little word of thanks to the Greater Power for having helped you. Repeat the performance the next day. And the next. Before you realize it you will have been sober a week, a month, a year. And yet you have only been sober a day at a time. If you set a time limit on your sobriety you will be looking forward to that day, and each day will be a burden to you. You will burn with impatience. But with no goal the whole thing clears itself, almost miraculously. Try the day by day plan. {Medical Men will tell you that alcoholics are all alike in at least one respect: they are emotionally immature. In other words, alcoholics have not learned to think like adults. The child, lying in bed at night, becomes frightened by a shadow on the wall, and hides his head under the covers. The adult, seeing the same shadow, knows there is a logical reason for it. He sees the street light, then the bed post, and he knows what causes the shadow. He has simply done what the child is incapable of doing - THOUGHT. And through thinking he has avoided fear. Learn to think things out. Take a thought and follow it through to its conclusion. If you are tempted to take a drink, reason out for yourself what will happen. Because if you will give serious consideration to the consequences you will have the battle won.} SO YOU'RE DIFFERENT! So you think you are not an alcoholic! As many Alcoholics Anonymous have gone off the deep end for that kind of thinking as almost all the other reasons combined. If you have all the symptoms your sponsor will tell you about and that you hear about at meetings, rest assured you are an alcoholic and no different from the rest of the breed. But don't make the mistake of finding it out the hard way - by experimenting with liquor. You will find it a painful experience and will only learn that you are NOT different. {AT MEETINGS don't criticize the leader. He has his own problems and is doing his best to solve them. Help him along by standing up and saying a few word. He will appreciate your kindness and thoughtfulness. DON'T criticize the methods of others. Strangely enough, you may change your own ideas as you become older in sobriety. Remember there are a dozen roads from New York to Chicago , but they all land in Chicago.} WHAT'S YOUR HURRY? Perhaps you don't feel you are getting the hang of this program as rapidly as you should. Forget it. It probably took you years to get in this condition. You certainly cannot expect a complete cure over night. You are not expected to grasp the entire program in one day. No one else has ever done that, so it certainly is not expected of you. Even the earliest members are learning something new about sober living nearly every day. There is an old saying, "Easy does it." It is a motto that any alcoholic could well ponder. A child learns to add and subtract in the lower grades. He is not expected to do problems in algebra until he is in high school. Sobriety is a thing that must be learned step by step. If anything puzzles you, ask your new friends about it, or forget it for the time being. The time is not so far away when you will have a good understanding of the entire program. Meantime, EASY DOES IT! THE A.A. PROGRAM is not a "cure," in the accepted sense of the word. There is no known "cure" for alcoholism except complete abstinence. It has been definitely proved that an alcoholic can never again be a normal drinker. The disease, however, can be arrested. How soon you will be cured of a desire to drink is another matter. That depends entirely upon how quickly you can succeed in changing your fundamental outlook on life. For as your outlook changes for the better, desire will become less pronounced, until it disappears almost entirely. It may be weeks or it may be months. Your sincerity and your capacity for working with others on the A.A. program will determine the length of time. Earlier in this pamphlet it was advised to keep relatives away from the hospital. The reason was explained. But after the patient leaves the hospital, it would be to bring the wife, husband, or other close relative to meeting. It will give them a clearer understanding of the program and enable them to cooperate more intelligently and more closely in the period of readjustment. DIET AND REST play an important part in the rehabilitation of an alcoholic. For many we bludgeoned ourselves physically, eating improper foods, sleeping with the aid of alcohol. In our drinking days we ate a bowl of chili or a hamburg sandwich because they were filling and cheap. We sacrificed good food so we would have more money for whiskey. We were the living counterparts of the old joke: "What, buying bread? And not a drop of whiskey in the house!" Our rest was the same. We slept when we passed out. We were the ones who turned out the street lights and rolled up the sidewalks. We now find that it is wise to eat balanced meals at regular hours, and get the proper amount of sleep without the unhealthy aid of liquor and sleeping pills. Vitamin B1 (Thiamin Hydrochloride) or B Complex will help steady our nerves and build up a vitamin deficiency. Fresh vegetables and fruits will help. In fact, it is a wise move to consult a physician, possibly have a complete physical examination. Your doctor then will recommend a course in vitamins, a balanced diet, and advise you as to rest. The reason for this advice is simple. lf we are undernourished and lack rest we become irritable and nervous. In this condition our tempers get out of control, our feelings are easily wounded, and we get back to the old and dangerous thought processes - "Oh, to Hell with it. I'll get drunk and show 'em." MANY MEMBERS of A.A. find it helpful, even after a long period of sobriety, to add an extra ration of carbohydrates to their diet. Alcohol turns into sugar in the body, and when we deprive ourselves of alcohol our bodies cry for sugar. This often manifests itself in a form of nervousness. Carry candy in your pocket. Keep it in your home. Eat deserts. Try an occasional ice cream soda or malted milk. You may find that it solves a problem by calming your nerves. MEETINGS IT HAS BEEN found advisable to hold meetings at least once a week at a specified time and place. Meetings provide a means for an exchange of ideas, the renewing of friendships, opportunity to review the work being carried on, a sense of security, and an additional reminder that we are alcoholics and must be continuously on the alert against the temptation to slip backward into the old drunken way of living. In Larger communities where there are several groups it is recommended that the new member attend as many meetings as possible. He will find that the more he is exposed to A.A. the sooner he will absorb its principles, the easier it will become to remain sober, and the sooner problems will shrink and tend to disappear. As a newcomer you will be somewhat bewildered by your first meeting. It is even possible that it will not make sense to you. Many have this experience. But if you don't find yourself enjoying your first meeting, pause to remember that you probably didn't care for the taste of your first drink of whisky - particularly if it was in bootleg days. {Again, you may feel like a "country cousin" at your first meeting. Your sponsor should see to it that this is not the case. But even if he neglects his duty, don't feel too badly. Don't be afraid to "horn in." If you are being neglected it is just an oversight, and you are entirely welcome. It is possible that you may not even be recognized because your appearance has changed for the better. In a week or two you will find yourself in the middle of things - and very likely neglecting other newcomers.} So attend your first meeting with an open mind. Even if you aren't impressed try it again. Before long you will genuinely enjoy attending and a little later you will feel that the week has been incomplete if you have not attended at least one A.A. meeting. Remember that attendance at meetings is one of the most important requisites of remaining sober. {A.A. OF AKRON gets many inquiries about how to conduct a meeting. Methods differ in many parts of the country. There are discussion groups, study groups, meeting where a leader takes up the entire time himself, etc. Here, briefly, is how meetings are conducted in the dozen or more Akron groups, a method that has been used since the founding of A.A.: The speaker can be selected from the local group, someone from another group or another city, or on occasion, a guest from the ranks of clergymen, doctor, the judiciary, or anyone who may be of help. In the case of such an outsider, he is generally introduced by the secretary or some other member. The leader opens the meeting with a prayer, or asks someone else to pray. The prayer can be original, or it can be taken from a prayer book, or from some publication such as "The Upper Room." The topic is entirely up to the leader. He can tell of his drinking experiences, or what he has done to keep sober, or he can advance his own theories on A.A. His talk lasts from 20 to 40 minutes, at which time he asks for comment or testimony from the floor. Just before the meeting closes - one hour in Akron - the leader asks for announcements or reports (such as next week's leader, social affairs, new members to be called on, etc.). In closing the entire group stands and repeats the Lord's Prayer. It is courteous to give the speaker enough advance notice so that he may prepare his talk if he so desires. The Physical set-up of groups varies in many cities. Those who are about to start new groups may be interested in the method used by Akron Group No l. It is merely a suggestion, however. When there are but very few members it is customary to hold the meetings in private homes of the members, on the same night of each week. When the group becomes larger, however, it is desirable to hold the meeting in a regular place. A school room, a room in a Y. M. C. A. or lodge, or hotel will do. It has been the experience throughout the country that the more fluid the structure of the group the more successful the operation. Akron Group No. 1 has a very simple set-up. There is a permanent secretary, who makes announcements, keeps a list of the membership, and takes care of correspondence. There is also a permanent treasurer, who takes care of the money and pays bills. Then there is a rotating committee of three members to take care of current affairs. Each member serves for three months, but a new one is added and one dropped every month. This committee takes care of providing leaders, supplying refreshments, arranging parties, greeting newcomers, etc. As the group grows older certain qualifications, in terms of length of sobriety, can be made. Akron Group No. 1 requires a full year of continuous sobriety as qualification to hold an office or serve. There are no dues. There is a free-will offering at each meeting to take care of expenses. There is probably an older group in some community within easy traveling distance of yours. Someone from that group will doubtless be happy to help you get started.} THE TWELVE STEPS Alcoholics Anonymous is based on a set of laws known as the Twelve Steps. Years of experience have definitely proved that those who live up to these rules remain sober. Those who gloss over or ignore any one rule are in constant danger of returning to a life of drunkenness. Thousands of words could be written on each rule. Lack of space prevents, so they are merely listed here. It is suggested that they be explained by the sponsor. If he cannot explain them he should provide someone who can THE TWELVE STEPS 1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol -- that our lives had become unmanageable. 2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity. 3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him. 4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves. 5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs. 6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character. 7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings. 8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all. 9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others. 10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it. 11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out. 12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs. The Twelve Steps are more fully explained in another pamphlet published in Akron and available through writing to Post Office Box 932. It is called "A Guide to the Twelve Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous" The price is 12 cents per copy, 9 cents in lot of 25 to 499, and 7 1/2 cents in lots of 500 or more. Checks or money orders can be made out to A.A. of Akron. SUGGESTED READING The following literature has helped many members of Alcoholics Anonymous. Alcoholics Anonymous. (Works Publishing Company.) The Holy Bible. The Greatest Thing in the World. Henry Drummond. The Unchanging Friend. (A Series) (Bruce Publishing Co., Milwaukee .) As a Man Thinketh. James Allen. The Sermon on the Mount. Emmet Fox (Harper Bros.) The Self You Have to Live With. Winfred Rhoades. (Lippincott.) Psychology of Christian Personality. Ernest M. Ligon. (Macmillan Co.) Abundant Living. E. Stanley Jones The Man Nobody Knows. Bruce Barron IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4504. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: A midwestern Anonymity Statement From: Cindy Miller . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/26/2007 7:45:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: Cindy Miller (cm53 at earthlink.net) Hmmmm.... bears a striking similarity (although a bit of the wording is changed) to the Closing Statement commonly read aloud at Al-Anon meetings. - - - - From: "Debi Ubernosky" (dkuber1990 at verizon.net) Anyone who has ever been to an Al-Anon meeting knows, this is an adaptation of what is read at the close of Al-Anon meetings - at least, it is read around here. - - - - From: Cece Archer (cecearcher at juno.com) The paragraph below is read at Al-anon meetings in Maryland. I have never heard it read at an AA meeting in California or Maryland. Cecilia Archer "Talk with each other. Reason with each other, but let there be no gossip or criticism of another. Instead please let the love, acceptance, understanding, and companionship of the program grow inside you one day at a time." - - - - From: "johnlawlee" (johnlawlee at yahoo.com) The "midwestern" anonymity statement tracks the one used in Alanon meetings nationwide, and the last paragraph is identical. I can't verify which one is the plagarism. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4505. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: A midwestern Anonymity Statement From: Bob McK. . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/27/2007 8:12:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello Andy - Ohio expatriate. I have heard things like this at some AA groups. It would seem to have come by individuals modifying Al-Anon's closing statement to their needs: "In closing, I would like to say that the opinions expressed here were strictly those of the person who gave them. Take what you liked and leave the rest. "The things you heard were spoken in confi- dence and should be treated as confidential. Keep them within the walls of this room and the confines of your mind. "A few special words to those of you who haven't been with us long: Whatever your problems, there are those among us who have had them too. If you try to keep an open mind you will find help. You will come to realize that there is no situation too difficult to be bettered and no unhappiness too great to be lessened. "We aren't perfect. The welcome we give you may not show the warmth we have in our hearts for you. After a while, you'll discover that though you may not like all of us, you'll love us in a very special way-the same way we already love you. "Talk to each other, reason things out with someone else, but let there be no gossip or criticism of one another. Instead, let the understanding, love, and peace of the program grow in you one day at a time." I do not know who did this or when it was done. This may come from more than one source. _________________________________ The original question from Andy T. asked: Would anybody know the origin or development of the following? It is used commonly in the Midwest and was a topic discussion at a meeting on its beginnings. ANONYMITY STATEMENT In closing this meeting let me remind you, you and me, that although no individual has the right to be wrong in his facts, every individual has the right to his own opinions. Please remember that the opinions expressed here are strictly those of the individual. Remember also that ANONYMITY is the spiritual foundation of the A.A. Traditions. The things that you hear here and share here are spoken and shared in confidence. Let them be treated as confidential. If you listen with an open mind, if you try to absorb what you see and hear, you are bound to gain a better understanding of yourself, your problem and a way to better handle that problem. Talk with each other. Reason with each other, but let there be no gossip or criticism of another. Instead please let the love, acceptance, understanding, and companionship of the program grow inside you one day at a time. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4506. . . . . . . . . . . . Just the messenger of "Saints Without Glasses..." From: jblair101 . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/28/2007 9:54:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In response to the many email requests for the PDF copy of "Saints Without Glasses: Mexican Catholics in Alcoholics Anonymous" as well as questions and comments regarding this research, perhaps the following comments will be helpful. The field research for this article was conducted in one particular geographical area of Mexico among Mexican Catholics in Alcoholics Anonymous. ( Perhaps some AA History Lover would want to replicate this research among Mexican Catholics in Alcoholics Anonymous living in the USA.) Glenn, our Yahoo Group moderator, posted the article, "Saints Without Glasses:..." in six parts. This was due to limitations of the Yahoo Group setup in terms of length of messages allowed and the fact that attachments are not an option. That is why I offered a PDF copy on request. Please note that I am not the author of this article but rather the one who received permission from the author, Dr. Peter Cahn, to post it for AA History Lovers. It was Peter who provided me with the PDF copy (or the article could be pur- chased for $32.11 plus tax electronically from the academic journal that published it). I do not personally know Peter, who is Associate Professor of Anthropology at the University of Oklahoma. I learned of his article in a daily online "Google Alert" that I receive. If you have specific questions or comments about his research, email Peter at pcahn@ou.edu (pcahn at ou.edu) or go to his Homepage at Some folks are not familiar with "Google Alerts." This is a good way to obtain an automatic notice of new materials (on any set of topics which you specify) when they appear on the internet, the day that they first show up on the Google search engine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_News_Alerts http://www.google.com/alerts http://www.googlealert.com/ Hope this helps... John IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4507. . . . . . . . . . . . Al-Anon origin of midwest AA anonymity statement From: Art Boudreault . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/29/2007 12:33:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dear History Lovers, According to "Al-Anon Family Groups, Classic Edition", the statement listed below was first printed in "Living With an Alcoholic, Expanded Edition" in May, 1973. I have verified that it is not in the 1962 printing. This book began as "Al-Anon Famliy Groups" (1955). The name of the book "Al-Anon Family Groups" was changed to "Living with an Alcoholic" in 1960, returned to "Al-Anon Family Groups" in 1985. In 2000, the "Al-Anon Family Groups, Classic Edition", was printed with the original text of the 1955 edition and added all the changes in Appendices. That the closing was listed in 1973, means that it was in common use by Al-Anon groups by then. Sincerely, Art Boudreault artb@netwiz.net (artb at netwiz.net) California North > Hello Andy - Ohio expatriate. I have heard > things like this at some AA groups. > > It would seem to have come by individuals > modifying Al-Anon's closing statement to > their needs: > > "In closing, I would like to say that the > opinions expressed here were strictly those > of the person who gave them. Take what you > liked and leave the rest. > > "The things you heard were spoken in confi- > dence and should be treated as confidential. > Keep them within the walls of this room and > the confines of your mind. > > "A few special words to those of you who > haven't been with us long: Whatever your > problems, there are those among us who have > had them too. If you try to keep an open > mind you will find help. You will come to > realize that there is no situation too > difficult to be bettered and no unhappiness > too great to be lessened. > > "We aren't perfect. The welcome we give you > may not show the warmth we have in our hearts > for you. After a while, you'll discover that > though you may not like all of us, you'll > love us in a very special way-the same way > we already love you. > > "Talk to each other, reason things out with > someone else, but let there be no gossip or > criticism of one another. Instead, let the > understanding, love, and peace of the program > grow in you one day at a time." > > I do not know who did this or when it was done. > This may come from more than one source. > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4508. . . . . . . . . . . . Holbrook (Dr. Bob''s middle name) From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/29/2007 2:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dr. Bob's middle name was Holbrook and I would like to know who he is named for. My late wife's mother was a Holbrook and was born in Lyndon, Vt., the next town north of St. Johnsbury on US-5. It is a very common name in the area. My mother was from the same area and I have spent a lot of time there, including my first three months of sobriety. I would be interested if there might be a connection. Tommy in Baton Rouge. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4509. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Earl Husband From: Cindy Miller . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/26/2007 8:01:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In 1995 (I think), I was fortunate to attend an AA "gathering" called "Pockets of Enthusiasm" in South Jersey. Earl was the featured speaker -- also speaking was his daughter. I remember 2 main points from that talk of his: A very no-nonsense (no psychobabble interpretations here!) adherence to the directions given in the Big Book, and an admonishment to dress well and carry yourself with dignity when speaking at an AA meeting. -cm - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Message #4482 asked: "Does anyone have any detailed information on the late AA historian/archivist Earl Husband from Oklahoma City, Oklahoma?" See also Messages #4494 and #4493 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4510. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Joe Worden From: sober_in_nc . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/27/2007 4:34:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I went back to listen to Jim Burwell's talk on the history of the big book (available free online) and he refers to Joe Worther (or Werther), and he does credit him with being a co-founder of the New Yorker magazine. Joe was a patient at at State's Hospital, which Jim called a "nut house." He only spent about 60 seconds on the topic (about 38 minutes into his talk). - - - - - From Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) (glennccc at sbcglobal.net) I think we have to continue to put a big question mark next to all those statements in early AA documents which claim that the mysterious Joe W. was a "founder" of the New Yorker magazine, or that "his family own the New Yorker Magazine." At least until someone can do some research and turn up a reference to his name in some document which talks about the early history of the New Yorker magazine. In addition, even though "Pass It On" says on page 202 that Joe W. was "a New Yorker writer," we have to say that if he WAS a writer for the magazine, he would have to have been a fairly minor figure. Or at least based on my research so far, he does not seem to have been somebody who got a regular byline. HERE IS WHAT I HAVE COME UP WITH SO FAR: The New Yorker magazine was founded in 1925 by Harold Ross and his wife, Jane Grant, a New York Times reporter. Ross, who was editor of the magazine from 1925 until his death in 1951, was an extremely well known figure in American literary circles. Entrepreneur Raoul H. Fleischman, the founder of the General Baking Company, gave Harold Ross the financial backing to publish the magazine. Joe W.'s name does not show up anywhere in that story, which is the normal historical account which is given of how the New Yorker magazine was begun. Sources: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_Yorker http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/timeline There is a list of current and past contri- butors to The New Yorker, along with the dates they served and their chief areas of interest, at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_New_Yorker_Contributors There are only four people named Joe or Joseph on that list of New Yorker writers: Joseph Brodsky - poet Joseph Epstein - writer and essayist Joseph Moncure March - editor Joseph Mitchell - nonfiction writer None of them is a "Joe W." There are twelve people whose last names begin with U, V, or W, but there is nobody there whose last name sounds like Worden, Ward, Worthum, Worther, or Werther: John Updike - fiction, essayist Chris Ware - cartoonist Rogers E. M. Whitaker - essayist, railroad writer E. B. White - essayist and editor Alec Wilkinson - essayist and author Edmund Wilson - literary critic Herbert Warren Wind - essayist, golf historian and journalist James Wolcott - television critic Tobias Wolff - short story writer James Wood - literary critic Alexander Woollcott - theatre critic Elizabeth Wurtzel- cultural critic and author It's possible that Joe W. did have something to do with the New Yorker magazine, but let us figure out what his connection was before we treat this as a historical fact. To say that somebody founded the New Yorker magazine, one of the most important literary magazines in twentieth century America, or that his family owned the magazine, is not impossible, but it is a pretty grandiose claim, and it would go against the normal historical accounts of how that magazine was started. The burden of proof, in other words, is upon the historian who wishes to claim that it was not really Harold Ross, but some guy named Joe W., who founded the New Yorker magazine. Glenn C. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4511. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Holbrook (Dr. Bob''s middle name) From: Charles Knapp . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/29/2007 11:27:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello, In addition to being an archivist I am also into genealogy. Here is what I found on my search of Dr Bob's family tree: Dr Bob's grandparents on his mothers side were Parley Holbrook was born about 1820. He married Louisa M. Severance. She was born about 1828. Their daughter, Dr Bob's mother, Susan A. Holbrook was born 1856, and died after 1880. She married Walter Perrin Smith, son of Perrin Smith and Betsy Judd. He was born 1842, and died 1918. Their son Robert Holbrook Smith was born 8 Aug 1879, and died 16 Nov 1950. He married Anne Robinson Ripley, daughter of Joseph Trescott Ripley and Harriet T. Conantz. She was born 1881, and died 1 Jun 1949. I also have the Smith side of the family back to about 1583. Also have Bill Wilson's family tree and it goes back to the Mayflower. Hope this helps Charles from California - - - - From: Tom Hickcox Subject: Holbrook (Dr. Bob's middle name) Dr. Bob's middle name was Holbrook and I would like to know who he is named for. My late wife's mother was a Holbrook and was born in Lyndon, Vt., the next town north of St. Johnsbury on US-5. It is a very common name in the area. My mother was from the same area and I have spent a lot of time there, including my first three months of sobriety. I would be interested if there might be a connection. Tommy in Baton Rouge IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4512. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Earl Husband From: ricktompkins . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/29/2007 11:28:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I first met Earl at the 2nd Archives Workshop in Akron in 1997, and he was a keynote speaker at an East Central Region Conference in Michigan (Lansing?) in around 1999. Both times he traveled with his daughter because of his age-restricted driving, and by the time of the ECR conference he had suffered a slight stroke. His talk at the ECR stressed both of the ideas (and more) that Cindy spoke of, and he also shared about the importance of AA Archives. George Dorsey, the banquet speaker, greeted him with a light-hearted salute that he was wearing his Trustee suit of clothes... When did he pass away? My Area's Archives has a few of his self- published bound books, full of archival gems. Earl was copying, publishing, and binding many book volumes for many years. We are a better Fellowship with members of his caliber IMHO. Rick, Illinois IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4513. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Joe W. and The New Yorker From: johnlawlee . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/30/2007 10:22:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII For decades The New Yorker published its stories without indication of the author of any particular article, review or story. The idea was to reflect "The New Yorker style"; consequently, it may be difficult to search back issues for Joe W.'s name. There are compilations of contributors, but they were gathered years afterwards, and their accuracy is disputable. When Tina Brown got ahold of the magazine, she changed the longstanding practice, and started to indicate authorship of individual pieces. Dorothy Parker was long listed as a staff member of The New Yorker, even in those years when she contributed nothing to the magazine. For more background on Dorothy, check out "What Fresh Hell Is This?", probably the most reliable and enter- taining of the Parker biogs. john lee pittsburgh - - - - > From Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) > > (glennccc at sbcglobal.net) > > I think we have to continue to put a big > question mark next to all those statements > in early AA documents which claim that the > mysterious Joe W. was a "founder" of the > New Yorker magazine, or that "his family > own the New Yorker Magazine." > > At least until someone can do some > research and turn up a reference to his > name in some document which talks about > the early history of the New Yorker > magazine. > > In addition, even though "Pass It On" > says on page 202 that Joe W. was "a New > Yorker writer," we have to say that if he > WAS a writer for the magazine, he would > have to have been a fairly minor figure. > Or at least based on my research so far, > he does not seem to have been somebody who > got a regular byline. > > HERE IS WHAT I HAVE COME UP WITH SO FAR: > > The New Yorker magazine was founded in 1925 > by Harold Ross and his wife, Jane Grant, > a New York Times reporter. Ross, who was > editor of the magazine from 1925 until his > death in 1951, was an extremely well known > figure in American literary circles. > > Entrepreneur Raoul H. Fleischman, the founder > of the General Baking Company, gave Harold > Ross the financial backing to publish the > magazine. > > Joe W.'s name does not show up anywhere in > that story, which is the normal historical > account which is given of how the New Yorker > magazine was begun. > > Sources: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_Yorker > http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/timeline > > There is a list of current and past contri- > butors to The New Yorker, along with the > dates they served and their chief areas > of interest, at > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_New_Yorker_Contributors > > There are only four people named Joe or > Joseph on that list of New Yorker writers: > > Joseph Brodsky - poet > Joseph Epstein - writer and essayist > Joseph Moncure March - editor > Joseph Mitchell - nonfiction writer > > None of them is a "Joe W." > > There are twelve people whose last names > begin with U, V, or W, but there is nobody > there whose last name sounds like Worden, > Ward, Worthum, Worther, or Werther: > > John Updike - fiction, essayist > Chris Ware - cartoonist > Rogers E. M. Whitaker - essayist, railroad writer > E. B. White - essayist and editor > Alec Wilkinson - essayist and author > Edmund Wilson - literary critic > Herbert Warren Wind - essayist, golf historian and journalist > James Wolcott - television critic > Tobias Wolff - short story writer > James Wood - literary critic > Alexander Woollcott - theatre critic > Elizabeth Wurtzel- cultural critic and author > > It's possible that Joe W. did have something > to do with the New Yorker magazine, but > let us figure out what his connection was > before we treat this as a historical fact. > > To say that somebody founded the New Yorker > magazine, one of the most important literary > magazines in twentieth century America, or > that his family owned the magazine, is not > impossible, but it is a pretty grandiose > claim, and it would go against the normal > historical accounts of how that magazine > was started. > > The burden of proof, in other words, is > upon the historian who wishes to claim > that it was not really Harold Ross, but > some guy named Joe W., who founded the > New Yorker magazine. > > Glenn C. > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4514. . . . . . . . . . . . Hollis D: master''s thesis on AA and Oxford Group From: diazeztone . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/30/2007 8:16:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII i just finished listening today to an AA talk by Hollis D. of Stauton, Virginia. He is a former Catholic priest, sober since 1977. He wrote his masters thesis in history on the topic of "Why AA Left the Oxford Group." Has any one seen or read this? Does anyone have a copy? LD Pierce aabibliography.com IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4515. . . . . . . . . . . . Finnish anonymity statement From: Jari Kokkinen . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/2/2007 3:10:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Bob, and others! Bob's version [see message #4505 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/4505 ] read just like the statement read at the closing of ACA meetings here in Finland, where it is in the workbook named as "a suggestion for the closing statement." Regards, Jari K. Finland IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4516. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Holbrook (Dr. Bob''s middle name) From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/2/2007 7:02:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Thanks Charles, that's some good information. In your search did you happen to uncover anything about Dr Bob's foster sister Amanda? All I know that is she was older than Dr Bob and later became a history professor at Hunter College in NY. Cheers Arthur - - - - Message #4511 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/4511 from "Charles Knapp" (cdknapp at pacbell.net) Dr Bob's grandparents on his mother's side were Parley Holbrook who was born about 1820. He married Louisa M. Severance. She was born about 1828. Their daughter, Dr Bob's mother, Susan A. Holbrook was born 1856, and died after 1880. She married Walter Perrin Smith, son of Perrin Smith and Betsy Judd. He was born 1842, and died 1918. Their son Robert Holbrook Smith was born 8 Aug 1879, and died 16 Nov 1950 .... I also have the Smith side of the family back to about 1583. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4517. . . . . . . . . . . . Hollis D. on xa-speakers From: Joe Adams . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/3/2007 1:05:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There are two talks by Hollis D for free download at xa-speakers.org. One from summrfest1999 and one from soberfest 2005. Both appear to be his personal story. Googling "Hollis d" and "Oxford" brings up nothing. I also tried "Hollis+oxford +AA" - which had interesting results, but none for the requested thesis. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4518. . . . . . . . . . . . Ernest Kurtz, Shame and Guilt From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/3/2007 3:01:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Ernest Kurtz, Shame & Guilt, second edition, revised and updated, July 2007. ISBN 978-0-595-45492-1, xiv + 60 pp., $10.95 U.S. See http://hindsfoot.org/kek1.html Now available in a paperback edition from amazon.com http://www.amazon.com/Shame-Guilt-Ernest-Kurtz/dp/0595454925/ref=sr_1_1/002- 9685\ 421-9678450?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1188843499&sr=1-1 [5] Originally published as Shame and Guilt: Characteristics of the Dependency Cycle (A Historical Perspective for Professionals). Center City, Minnesota: Hazelden, 1981. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4519. . . . . . . . . . . . Using "Google Alerts" as an AA history tool From: jblair101 . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/30/2007 9:25:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In my previous message, I mentioned the use of Google Alerts to identify information on topics of interest and Glenn,our moderator, added some useful references which I will add to here along with examples. A beginning point is to check the link http://www.google.com/support/alerts/bin/static.py?page=faq.html&hl=en#q2 This link provides basic information for getting started, including a link to indicate each topic of interest to you. The following is an example of Google Alert titles that I have used for different purposes related to Alcoholics Anonymous, addiction and recovery. Some may appear to be redundant but may yield different references: Alcoholics Anonymous Alcoholics Anonymous history alcoholism addiction 12 step spirituality God Higher Power alcoholism recovery books Christian alcoholism recovery Catholic alcoholism addiction recovery alternatives to Alcoholics Anonymous Venerable Matt Talbot As with Matt Talbot, you can have alerts set for names, such as your own name, Ernie Kurtz, Glenn Chesnut, Bill W., Dr Bob, etc. Alerts can be as broad or as specific as you choose. Some alerts arrive daily while others period- ically appear. Each alert may have one reference or multiple ones. Some references may be worthwhile while others may not be relevant. Instead of each reference within an alert coming into my inbox, I set the frequency for "daily" alerts. While I have been hesitant to include blogs on my topic of interest, I have found references in blogs that haven't appeared elsewhere, so I include blogs for certain topics. You can also add or cancel any alert at any time. I hope those who read this message will share other tools used in searching AA history that some of us may not be familiar with. Perhaps a useful rule of thumb is "don't assume others know about or how to..." Happy searching... John IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4520. . . . . . . . . . . . Northern California AA history From: janeenmarie . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/3/2007 5:42:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I've been asked to give a talk on the local history for my area. It's part of northern California Coastal Area 06. Does anyone have anything for Benicia, Vallejo, California District 09 / District 900 (1980), Vallejo Fellowship or Nothern California? Thanks, Janeen - - - - Traditions Workshop District 09 (aasolanosouth.org) Sat. Oct 13, 2007, 12 - 4 pm St. Paul's, First & J Sts., Benicia, California There will be a talk on the history of the traditions with talks given by Cora Louise B., David A. and others, followed by a local history and archives display. Any ideas, input would be appreicated. All are invited to attend. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4521. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Dr. Bob''s foster sister Amanda From: Charles Knapp . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/4/2007 12:11:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Arthur, No found no trace of her. Did not see her name on any of the US Census that I saw. Will go back and double check. Thanks Charles from California - - - - Message 4516 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/4516 from "Arthur S" (ArtSheehan at msn.com) Charles ... in your search did you happen to uncover anything about Dr Bob's foster sister Amanda? All I know that is she was older than Dr Bob and later became a history professor at Hunter College in NY. Cheers Arthur - - - - Message #4511 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/4511 from "Charles Knapp" (cdknapp at pacbell.net) Dr Bob's grandparents on his mother's side were Parley Holbrook who was born about 1820. He married Louisa M. Severance. She was born about 1828. Their daughter, Dr Bob's mother, Susan A. Holbrook was born 1856, and died after 1880. She married Walter Perrin Smith, son of Perrin Smith and Betsy Judd. He was born 1842, and died 1918. Their son Robert Holbrook Smith was born 8 Aug 1879, and died 16 Nov 1950 .... I also have the Smith side of the family back to about 1583. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4522. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr. O. Hobart Mowrer, confession and restitution From: dino . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/4/2007 8:42:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Did O. Hobart Mowrer have any influence of any kind on AA thought? - - - - From the moderator: O. Hobart Mowrer (1907 - 1982) was an American psychology professor from 1948 to 1975 who is known for his research on behavior therapy. He practiced psychoanalysis and psychotherapy in Champaign-Urbana and at Galesburg State Research Hospital. His two best known books in areas that might relate to AA were "The Crisis in Psychiatry and Religion" (1961) and "The New Group Therapy" (1964). As can be seen from the dates of those two books, they could not have had any influence on the Big Book (published 1939) or the 12 & 12 (published 1953). The fundamental AA ideas were all established, as far as I can tell, long before Mowrer began developing his theories on confession and restitution. It would be interesting to ask the question the other way around, however, and ask whether there is any evidence that Mowrer had come into any kind of contact with either AA or the Oxford Group. There is a good summary of Mowrer's ideas in http://hv.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00BhCl from which I quote the following: O. Hobart Mowrer, the great learning theorist, ... challenged Freud's idea that most guilt was neurotic and wrote about the significance of real guilt. Mowrer's work on integrity therapy, which emerged out of deep personal pain, is highly relevant for the psychology of religion. Mowrer reported having at least eight "more or less incapacitating depressions, two of sufficient severity to require hospitali- zation" (J. M. Hunt, 1984, p. 912). In an effort to cure his neurosis, Mowrer engaged in four courses of psychoanalysis, including extensive work with Hanns Sachs. Ultimately disillusioned, Mowrer decided around 1944 that he was "through with psychoanalysis" (Mowrer, 1966, p. 16). During his years of war-time work affiliation with the Office of Strategic Services, Mowrer was influenced by representatives of the Washington School of Psychiatry and Chestnut Lodge. In 1945 he enrolled in two courses at the Washington School of Psychiatry, one of which was a life-changing course with Harry Stack Sullivan. Mowrer reported that: Beginning with the Sullivan seminar in the spring of 1945. I ceased blaming morality (as embodied in my conscience and embedded in society) for my difficulties, and began to look at my own interpersonal failures and fraudulence as the root of the problem. ... following my "season in Hell" in 1953, I began to think much more seriously about religion. ... I felt that psychology had not "saved" me; and since I was still in a state of confusion and dismay I hoped that Christianity might. (pp. 33-34) Mowrer began to publish the ideas that crystal- lized into integrity therapy. In his early book on personality, Mowrer (1950) argued that there is a form of anxiety induced by guilt: "The view here proposed is that anxiety comes, not from acts which the individual would commit but dares not, but from acts which he has committed and wishes that he had not. It is, in other words, a 'guilt theory' of anxiety rather than an 'impulse theory'" (p. 537). Despite his efforts to live a more honest life, Mowrer was hospitalized for a suicidal depression in August 1953, on the eve of his ascendence to the presidency of the American Psychological Association. In 1956 Mowrer was invited to respond to a paper presented by Anton Boisen (1876-1965) at an APA symposium on Religion and Mental Health. After reading Boisen (1958), Mowrer (1966) believed that his own illness on the eve of his APA presidency served the functions of confession and penance: by not showing up in Cleveland I had unconsciously accomplished two things: (1) I had greatly extended my confession now several thousand of my fellow psychologists knew there was something wrong with me, although they did not know precisely what; and (b) I had done penance in that I had declined the honors and undergone the humiliation of hospitalization and the pain of a severe agitated depression. (p. 24) Mowrer became increasingly convinced that in the neurotic individual "an identity crisis arises because of foolish, short-sighted decisions which the individual himself has made (to do deviant things and to hide them), for which no one but himself can be properly blamed. Such a person has had some freedom of choice and has exercised it badly" (p. 29). Mowrer's early papers on these topics were collected in The Crisis in Psychiatry and Religion (1961), where his central argument is that disingenuous amorality may be a cause of personality disorders. A second collection of papers was published as The New Group Therapy. Here, Mowrer (1964) described the integrity therapy groups which were based on his understanding of the early church. Mowrer (1966) contended that "early Christianity was basically a small-groups movement in which alienated, sinful, 'neurotic' persons confessed before and did penance under the guidance of the particular 'congregation' (or 'house church') to which they belonged or wished to belong" (p. 35). He believed that Christianity, rather than being too "Puritanical, legalistic, rigid" suffered a different sin: "Is it not, rather, the church's claim that it has, in one form or another, special power -- through the sacraments, preaching, or prayer -- to 'forgive' sins, in the sense of pardoning them, getting the evil-doer off easy, 'cheap grace' (Bonhoeffer, [1937/]1948)" (Mowrer, 1966, p. 36). Mowrer felt that we should "revitalize the ancient practice of living openly, in community and fully under the judgment of one's family, friends, and close associates" (p. 37). His integrity groups emphasized the value of confession, restitution, and involvement (Mowrer, 1976). Mowrer echoed the thoughts of Runestam (1930/1958), who asserted in his critique of psychoanalysis that the root of neurotic illness lay in the fact that the moral force has been too weak, and the psychiatrist must deal with issues that are moral or religio-moral in nature. Mowrer wrote the foreword to Glasser's (1965) Reality Therapy, where Glasser argued that "human beings find themselves in emotional difficulty, not because their standards are too high, but because their performance is too low. Responsible living is the key to meeting our basic human need for relatedness and respect, and follows upon a realistic assessment of our situation" (Vande Kemp, 1984, p. 236). Thus, Mowrer and his colleagues emphasized that failures in interpersonal responsibility constitute instances of true guilt, a view that would have gratified Sullivan (1956/1973). Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4523. . . . . . . . . . . . Looking for picture of the kitchen table From: marianlhill . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/5/2007 2:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does anyone have a picture of the table from the Clinton St. house where Bill and Ebby talked that you would be willing to email me? I am doing a history presentation and have a place for it and now I can't find one. Thanks. Marian IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4524. . . . . . . . . . . . Differences in Multilith Copies of Original Manuscript? From: schaberg43 . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/7/2007 4:02:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have recently been traveling around the country looking at copies of the Original Manuscript - the multilith printing that was made and circulated for comments before our Big Book was first published in April of 1939. As has been noted before, there are TWO versions of the title page to this printing. Although everything else in these copies 'seems' to be identical: one version has a title page reading "Alcoholics Anonymous" and the other adds an incorrect apostrophe, as in "Alcoholic's Anonymous." In the past few months, I've been able to inspect seven copies of the Original Manuscript - two of which did not have the apostrophe and five of which that did. Now here's what I found to be interesting. In all of the copies that I have so far seen without an apostrophe in the title, there are two extra "Index" pages that are not found in the copies that do have an apostrophe. Maybe there were different printings or, perhaps, just different collations and bindings done for these multilith copies - but there seems to be uniform differences between these two "issues" of the Original Manuscript. So, here's my question: DO ANY OF THE FOLKS ON THE AAHISTORYLOVERS BOARD OWN OR HAVE ACCESS TO A MULTILITH COPY OF THE ORIGINAL MANUSCRIPT THAT THEY COULD INSPECT TO EITHER CONFIRM OR DENY THIS COINCIDENCE OF THE APOSTROPHE AND THE INDEX PAGES? NOTE: No apostrophe copies consulted: 1 in NYC AA Archive, my own (Jim Burwell) copy Apostrophe copies consulted: 2 in NYC AA Archive, Sotheby's 06/07, a copy I sold in 02/07, a private collection in CA. Thanks, Old Bill IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4525. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Earl Husband From: Marsha Finley . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/3/2007 3:28:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII My mother came into AA in 1987, and attended a beginners meeting (Tues or Wed.) at the Husbands' house. The following is from a conversation I had with her today: She said it was held at the kitchen table for four consecutive weeks, with about four folks at a time. He outlived his wife Jean, who was very slim and frail. Jean was very supportive to Earl in all his efforts, and he adored her as well. She says that he specialized in individuals - he was everyone's temporary sponsor as they first came into AA. He was available almost all evening, from early afternoon till about 10:00 pm. He finished a masters degree in History (?) while in his 60's [previously, he had been a wholesale food distributor (meats & cheeses)], and Mom typed it for him. She may still have a carbon, or a copy on her computer. He was a plain vanilla guy that personifies the expression "You Can't Judge a Book By Its Cover". She says that it was a real privilege to work with him. Marsha S Finley IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4526. . . . . . . . . . . . Deacidifying paper From: John Wikelius . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/6/2007 12:38:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Can I deacidify an old newspaper myself? It is very fragile and is prohibition related. John Wikelius (nov85 at graceba.net) 301 North Rawls Street Enterprise, Alabama 36330 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4527. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Deacidifying paper From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/7/2007 10:38:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "Can I deacidify an old newspaper myself?" Of course you can. It would be cost prohibi- tive to use Bookeepers or Wei To spray. David showed us today how to work on paper at the preservation workshop of the 11th National Archives Workshop here in Phoenix, AZ. Many of us have done this for years but because of our rotation in AA there are always many new AA archivists and conservators. Since newspaper is the worst type of paper, one would use the cheapest method to preserve it. Dr R. D. Smith the architect of Wei T'o spray developed "the use of magnesium bicarbonate in club soda to protect paper against aging." THE USE OF MAGNESIUM BICARBONATE PREPARED WITH MAGNESIUM HYDROXIDE AND CLUB SODA TO PROTECT PAPER AGAINST AGING Richard D. Smith Wei T'o Associates, Inc October 15, 1998 INTRODUCTION The most important step that an individual can take to reduce the rate at which his or her records are aging is to neutralize papers which are acidic and impregnate them with an alkaline buffering agent to prevent reacidifi- cation. Many methods have been developed to deacidify paper including treatments with aqueous and nonaqueous solutions as well as alkaline gases. Aqueous (water-based) deacidification solutions are good choices when the cost of labor is less important than the cost of chemicals and the article being treated will not be harmed by wetting it with water. The treatment of paper with the following solution of magnesium bicarbonate in club soda was developed at The University of Chicago by R. D. Smith about 1965. It will de-acidify acidic papers, deposit a substantial quantity of Milk of Magnesia buffering agent, and tend to prevent the development of brown spots (foxing). MATERIALS NEEDED a) One quart of salt free club soda (available in supermarkets, grocery stores, etc.) b) Magnesium hydroxide, technical or reagent grade, (available locally from chemical or laboratory supply houses and by mail order from TALAS, 568 Broadway, New York, NY 10012). Magnesium carbonate or oxide, though less soluble, may be substituted. c) A plastic, aluminum, enameled, glass, or stainless steel pan measuring about 10" x 12" and 2 1/2" deep (available in hardware stores). d) White blotting paper (available in stationery stores). e) Paper towels (available in supermarkets or grocery stores). PREPARING THE SOLUTION Wet two teaspoonfuls of magnesium hydroxide with one or two ounces of club soda. Mix and pulverize any hard particles with the back of the spoon. Pour or spoon the slurry back into the quart of club soda. Replace the bottle cap and shake the closed bottle gently to thoroughly disperse the slurry. After this initial shaking, replace the bottle in the refrigerator and keep it there because a stronger solution is produced with cold club soda. After ten, twenty and thirty minutes, take out the bottle and shake it gently to redisperse the undissolved white powder. Continue shaking every ten minutes until essentially all of the magnesium hydroxide is dissolved. Then allow the bottle to sit quietly in the refrigerator for thirty minutes or until the undissolved powder settles to the bottom of the bottle. TREATMENT PROCEDURE Pour the clear solution of magnesium bicarbonate in club soda carefully into the pan, previously cooled in the refrigerator. Place the papers to be treated in the solution one by one. Press each sheet of paper gently into the solution to insure it is thoroughly immersed before the next sheet is added. Soak up to twenty-five 8 1/2" by 11" sheets of paper in this solution for a minimum of twenty to thirty minutes. Soaking for one or two hours normally is not harmful. Raise and lower the sheets three to four times to facilitate contact with fresh solution. Weak and embrittled sheets can be protected by handling them individually on sheets of strong paper or plastic, or on an aluminum or plastic screen. Remove the sheets from the pan after treatment and allow the excess solution to drain away. Discard the solution remaining in the pan. Dry the sheets in the air until the paper is dry-damp. Then place the sheets of paper one by one between sheets of blotting paper. Continue the drying procedure under moderate pressure (several heavy books) until the treated sheets are dry. Very wet papers may require one or more changes of blotters to be sure the treated sheets dry flat. From Phoenix, Yours in Service, Shakey Mike Source: Dr Smith has a web site that shows this information under the site map. http://www.weito.com/intro.htm He also has developed new sprays that are non-flammable and are more user friendly. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4528. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Looking for picture of the kitchen table From: Ernest Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/8/2007 8:53:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII It is claimed that original table from Clinton Street is now at Stepping Stones, and I am aware of no claims or evidence to the contrary. See http://www.steppingstones.org/house17.html (By the way, that whole online tour is well worth a slow visit.) ernie kurtz - - - - marianlhill wrote: > Does anyone have a picture of the table from > the Clinton St. house where Bill and Ebby > talked ...? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4529. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: picture of the kitchen table From: Rob White . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/8/2007 10:22:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dear Marian, If you go to the Stepping stones website at http://www.steppingstones.org/ you can oder a set of 5 cards for $10. One of the cards is a very nice color picture of the kitchen table. Once you have the card it would scan nicely into a JPG file. The table is actually in the Kitchen at Stepping Stones. The staff at Stepping Stones report that it is the same table that was in Clinton St. good luck! Rob W. Baltimore Robert White University of Maryland, Baltimore Department of Psychiatry 410-328-8549 - - - - From: Shakey Mike Gwirtz Shakey1aa@aol.com (Shakey1aa at aol.com) The Folks that run Stepping Stones have a wonderful sketching of the coffee table and the coffee pot. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4530. . . . . . . . . . . . Logo in "Experience, Strength & Hope" From: hjfree2001 . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/8/2007 11:55:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dear AA Buff's While not a "history" question it may be of interest. On the inside leaf of the cover jacket of "Experience, Strength & Hope: Stories from the First Three Edtions of Alcoholics Anonymous," is a logo. After the title, there is a little red stylized heart with scroll work above it. ANY clues? Blessed2Bsober rob - - - - From the moderator: It's not a secret AA symbol (grin). It is a fairly common decorative symbol used by printers. It shows up in a lot of the special symbol sets used by various computer programs. They are sometimes called dingbats, and are used for decoration when printers are designing title pages and things like that. For example, in WordPerfect (my word processing program of choice) the heart design you are referring to is listed under "Iconic Symbols" as number 5,166. You can find it in a lot of special fonts sets that are available from various sources. Glenn C. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4531. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Earl Husband From: James Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/7/2007 7:28:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Marsha wrote: He finished a masters degree in History (?) while in his 60's [previously, > he had been a wholesale food distributor (meats & cheeses)], and Mom typed it for him. Actually he went to Oklahoma State University and got a masters degree in Chemical Dependency and when I aked him why he was doing that he laughed and said that when folks chose to argue with him he could point to the degree and say "I know all about that s*it." His dad had started a meat packing plant in Oklahoma City that employed 150 people and most were members and Earl ran it up till it and all that he owned was lost in the collapse of the first S&L. He had mortgaged everything to finance the building of a plant in Germany to process beef for the military. He lost his home and members bought it in the tax sale and gave it back to Jean and Earl. Jim IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4532. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Northern California AA history From: kentedavis@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/7/2007 5:08:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have a copy of Dean K's history of Northern California published in 1974. Kent (kentedavis at aol.com) - - - - In a message dated 9/7/2007 12:08:19 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, janeenmarie@yahoo.com writes: I've been asked to give a talk on the local history for my area. It's part of northern California Coastal Area 06. Does anyone have anything for Benicia, Vallejo, California District 09 / District 900 (1980), Vallejo Fellowship or Nothern California? Thanks, Janeen (janeenmarie at yahoo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4533. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr. O. Hobart Mowrer, confession and restitution From: James Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/7/2007 7:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dino wrote > Did O. Hobart Mowrer have any influence of > any kind on AA thought? No, but he was a great fan of AA. He wrote 3 articles which were published in the AA Grapevine: - How "White" Is A "White Lie"? (9-62) - Make Friends With Your Conscience, (2-63) - Sponsor Be Yourself, (5-63) Mowrer also had an article published titled "A.A. and The Third Reformation," Religion In Life, Winter 1965. Jim IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4534. . . . . . . . . . . . Dust Jacket Codes From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/9/2007 9:57:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I recently acquired a 9th printing of The A.A. Way of Life/As Bill Sees It and noticed a code similar to that used on Big Books on the rear flap of the dust jacket. The code is M-1/79(A) and its form is similar to those used in the Second and early Third Editions of the Big Books, the 79 indicating it was published in 1979. I have earlier AAWL/ABSI printings but none right after the ninth and am curious how long they used this code. My notes say the codes were used in the Third Edition Big Books thru the Seventh Printing, 1980. Which printings of AAWL/ABSI used the codes? Tommy in Baton Rouge. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4535. . . . . . . . . . . . First 226 Akron members From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/10/2007 1:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From "Tom Hickcox" cometkazie1@cox.net (cometkazie1 at cox.net) First 226 Members Akron, OH AA Group A list of names, addresses, and phone numbers drawn up probably during the 1940's. See http://hindsfoot.org/akrn226.doc for an MS Word version of the list See http://hindsfoot.org/akrn226b.html for a description of the list and more details about it. (appears on http://hindsfoot.org/archives.html ) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4536. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr. O. Hobart Mowrer, confession and restitution From: dino . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/10/2007 10:47:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Isn't quite a lot of the stuff written by Paul M.-Riverside Illinois (who by the way has written an article in the most recent Grapevine) influenced by Hobart Mowrer? Also a lot of the philosophy of The Fellowship of the Spirit movement (endless ongoing inventories, making amends to multiple people) taken from Mowrer's work? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4537. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Northern California AA history From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/9/2007 7:34:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I'm not sure where I got this from but... Alcoholics Anonymous Hospital and Institution Committee of Northern California The Legacy of Service By Ron Long "A.A., as such, ought never be organized; but we may create service boards or committees directly responsible to those they serve." - Alcoholics Anonymous, Tradition Nine. "When Tradition Nine was first written, it said that 'Alcoholics Anonymous needs the least possible organization.' In years since then, we have changed our minds about that. Today, we are able to say with assurance that Alcoholics Anonymous - A.A. as a whole - should never be organized at all. Then, in seeming contradiction, we proceed to create special service boards and committees which in them- selves are organized. ..." - The Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, page 172. "Each group has but one primary purpose - to carry the message to the alcoholic who still suffers." - Alcoholics Anonymous, Tradition Five. The early years of Alcoholics Anonymous pro- vided the Fellowship most of the experiences, some hard lessons to learn for a few, which led to the realization in later years of the need of developing the Twelve Traditions and Twelve Concepts for World Service of Alcoholics Anonymous. The evolutionary experience of Tradition Nine began at the State of California prison in Tamal, California on the San Francisco bay. In 1942 Clinton Duffy, warden of San Quentin prison in Tamal, had realized that most of the inmates' felony convictions were associated with individual cases of alcoholism. Warden Duffy contacted an A.A. member in Richmond, California, Warren T. and described the alcoholic realities at San Quentin. Warren was joined by Ricardo, an inmate, in holding the first meeting at San Quentin in 1942. The development of the Northern Cali- fornia Council of Alcoholics Anonymous, Hospital and Institution Committee led in June of 1946, when the Hospital and Institution Committee was invited to carry the message to incarcerated inmates at Folsom Prison. In 1947 the Northern California Council of Alcoholics Anonymous, Hospital and Institution Committee had been established. NCA communicated its purpose and structure to New York, prior to A.A. in New York fully establishing the General Service Office of Alcoholics Anonymous. The Northern California Council of Alcoholics Anonymous, Hospital and Institution Committee during the later years of its growth formalized H.&I.'s Purpose very succinctly. "The only purpose of the Hospital & Institution Committee of the Northern California Council of Alcoholics Anonymous is to carry the message of Alcoholics Anonymous to the alcoholic who is confined. The activities of this Committee are based on, and governed by, the Twelve Traditions of Alcoholics Anonymous." The Northern California Council of Alcoholics Anonymous, Hospital and Institution Committee grew to the Service level today in carrying the A.A. message into most of the jails, prisons, psychiatric facilities, hospital programs and treatment units where the suffering alcoholic is either confined or restricted from attend- ing meetings of Alcoholics Anonymous in the community. NCCAA and its Southern California panels sepa- rated in the late 1970s. The growth of the hospitals and institutions covered by H&I had become so vast throughout California that Southern California members, for certain tired of the long monthly drive to San Francisco or Stockton from such cities as San Diego and Los Angeles to attend the business meetings, joined the Southern California Alcoholics Anonymous General Service Office. NCCAA has continued to function upon its foundation, Tradition Nine. (Most of the historical details provided here are from Policy and History of Hospital and Institution Committee Service Work, NCCAA, 1972.) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4538. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr. O. Hobart Mowrer, confession and restitution From: khemex@comcast.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/11/2007 8:49:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Paul M. from Riverside Illinois, who just celebrated 60 years of continuous sobriety in A.A. had work with Mowrer for a while and might be able to shed some light on this subject. Gerry W. - - - - Message #4522 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/4522 From "dino" (lauraoshea at verizon.net) Did O. Hobart Mowrer have any influence of any kind on AA thought? - - - - Message #4536 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/4536 From "dino" (lauraoshea at verizon.net) Isn't quite a lot of the stuff written by Paul M.-Riverside Illinois (who by the way has written an article in the most recent Grapevine) influenced by Hobart Mowrer? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4539. . . . . . . . . . . . Minneapolis AA 1945 success rate From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/12/2007 12:33:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The A.A. Grapevine, August 1946, Page 1 Minneapolis Record Indicates that 75% Are Successful in A.A. The Minneapolis Group, in March, 1943, inaugurated a system for keeping a record of the sobriety of members from three months on up. As a result, the following exact percentages have been arrived at: For the Year 1945 5-yr. members ... 100% successful ... 0% slipped 4-yr. members ... 100% successful ... 0% slipped 3-yr. members ... 100% successful ... 0% slipped 2-yr. members ... 89% successful ... 11% slipped 18-mo. members ... 90% successful ... 10% slipped 1-yr. members ... 80% successful ... 20% slipped 9-mo. members ... 82% successful ... 18% slipped 6-mo. members ... 70% successful ... 30% slipped 3-mo. members ... 48% successful ... 52% slipped (Of those who slipped in 1945, only 16-1/2% have worked back to any degree of sobriety.) Over-all Percentages 1943 78% successful 22% slipped 1944 83% successful 17% slipped 1945 77% successful 23% slipped ______________________________ People in early A.A. often kept their stat- istics in forms totally different from what is customarily used today. We have here what appear to be some fairly careful statistics kept in Minneapolis, for example, from 1943 to 1945, given in this article in the Grape- vine. But as we shall see, even though we can make a few useful observations, these figures are in fact very difficult to trans- late into a modern format. The headline says they were achieving a 75% success rate, which is in fact incorrect. They liked the figures "50%" and "75%" so much that they tended to adjust numbers in that direction whenever possible. This was not necessarily to make themselves look good. The actual figures given in the article below the headline show a 77% to 83% overall success rate, which in fact is actually higher. We way we usually give success rate figures in modern studies of AA, is to take a large group of people who have been encouraged to attend a few AA meetings (many of them perhaps court ordered, and others trucked in rather unwillingly from treatment centers run by psychiatrists who are hostile to AA and let their patients know how silly they think AA is). Now if 77% to 83% of these people were to decide that they actually WANTED to quit drinking, and threw themselves wholeheartedly into AA, and were found to still be clean and sober three years later, and even five years later, this would be quite an extraordinary accomplishment indeed. And there are people today who would want us to believe that there was some version of early AA which could have taken one hundred court appointed people who had been convicted of drunk driving, and could have turned seventy-five or more of them into sober and dedicated AA members. In spite of the fact that no one in the modern period has ever been able to accomplish anything like that using what they argue are the old methods. But let's look a little harder at the Minnea- polis statistics. Large numbers of the people who were in their early months were going back out and getting drunk again, and only a very small percentage indeed of these people ever came back and tried to get sober again. And they were excluding from the count all those who had not completed their first 90 days successfully (where the number who quit and got drunk again was presumably very high indeed, probably close to an 80% failure rate, for the part of the curve which they did reveal was clearly an exponential curve). But their people with 3 years, 4 years, and 5 years sobriety were all staying sober. This counterbalanced all the newcomers who were failing to make it. So in any given year, they could truthfully say that 77% to 83% of THEIR TOTAL MEMBERSHIP was staying sober. That did not at all mean that 77% to 83% of the newcomers who walked into their meetings for the first time were going to end up permanently sober. So for example, of those who had completed their first 90 days, but had not yet completed a full six months, the Minneapolis chart tells us that 52% of these people went out and got drunk again. And between six months and nine months, there was still a hefty 30% who went back out and got drunk. This was an incredibly high failure rate. These figures from 1943 to 1945 are not better than modern AA. Compared to the figures in the Triennial Reports, this was worse than modern AA. We do a whole lot better than that nowadays, at least with the people who have been in the program between three months and nine months, where the problems in Minneapolis in the old days seem to have been greatest. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4540. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr. O. Hobart Mowrer, confession and restitution From: james.bliss@comcast.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/11/2007 5:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Not sure if this is the same Paul M., but here is an article by a Paul Martin written about Mowrer. http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=1880 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4541. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Tom P. and Gresham''s Law article From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/12/2007 1:56:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From "mdingle76" (mdingle76 at yahoo.com) Correction on the phone number for East Ridge Press and what is now called 24 Communications: phone (845) 887-6575 and ask for Matt. 24 Communication is a publication of All Addicts Anonymous, see http://www.alladdictsanonymous.org - - - - This is a correction to the original Message #2892 from mitchell_k_archivist@yahoo.com (mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com) Gresham's Law and AA was written by Tom Powers .... It was originally published in 24 Magazine published by the East Ridge Community in Hankins NY .... If I remember correctly, they also used to have what they called "ALL ADDICTS ANONYMOUS" and other types of activities there .... The East Ridge Press can be contacted at 161 Ridge Road, Hankins, NY 12741 -- (845) 887-6467. They may even have some reprints of the article in the original format. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4542. . . . . . . . . . . . Philadelphia AA statistics 1940-1941 From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/12/2007 3:39:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII These statistics from Philadelphia cover only a period of about a year and a half, and a lot of their people had only been sober for a few months. Nevertheless, they appear to have been dealing better with drop-outs during the three- month to nine-month period than the early Minneapolis group was doing in the statistics given in Message 4539: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/4539 From: "Bill Cleveland" billc@craigtools.com (billc at craigtools.com) Forwarded by: "Tom Hickcox" (cometkazie1 at cox.net) Philadelphia A.A. Statistics 1940-1941 The Philadelphia A.A. group was formed February 20, 1940 Special Report On AA Work At The Philadelphia General Hospital December 13, 1940 The following is the complete experience of the Philadelphia A.A. Group with patients of the Philadelphia General Hospital since March 15. On this list are included only those men who have attended at least two or three A.A. meetings and have signified their intention of following the A.A. program. Brief notes on the various individuals follow (the original letter had full names & addresses): Joseph A. - Dry seven months, no trouble. Frank B. - Dry five months, one slip after he left group one month ago. Herbert C. B. - Dry four months, no trouble. Joshua D. B. - Probably psychopathic; continuous slips. Charles J. C. - Dry nine months, no trouble. John D. - Dry four months through Philadelphia General Hospital and Byberry. Joseph D. - Dry four months, no trouble. George G. - Dry one month, no trouble. John H. H. - Continuous slips before and after hospitalization. William K. - Dry four months, no trouble. Alfred K. - Dry four months, no trouble. Arthur T. McM. - Dry eight months, no trouble. William P. - Continuous after two hospitali- zations, only attended five meetings, no work. Harry McC. - Dry eleven months, one slip two months ago, hospitalization then. James S. - Continuous slips before and after hospitalization. George K. - Continuous trouble up to two months ago, first hospital May. C. M. M. - Dry nine months, no trouble. Hugh O'H. - Dry two months, no trouble. Edmonds P. - Dry nine months, hospitalization recent, trouble since. William J. P. - Dry three months, no trouble. James R. - Dry five months, no trouble. William R. - Dry six weeks, no trouble. Carl R. - Dry eight weeks. Biddle S. - Dry four months, hospital trouble now dry one month. Thomas S. - Dry four months, one slip. David W. - Dry seven months, no trouble. William W. - Dry nine months, no trouble. Margery W. - Dry three months, no trouble. Nineteen out of twenty-eight who have come through the Philadelphia General Hospital have had no trouble. Of the nine who have had trouble, five have been with the group and had trouble previous to hospitalization. This list was made at the request of Jack Alexander, writer for the Saturday Evening Post. (Signed) A. W. Hammer M. D. - Surgeon (Signed) C. D. Saul, M. D. - Chief resident, Saint Luke's Hospital (Signed) Philadelphia General Hospital, By: John F. Stouffer M. D. - Chief Psychiatrist ************************* From: AA Philadelphia Group Post Office Box 332 William Penn Annex To: Alcoholic Foundation 30 Vesey Street, New York, N. Y. December 14, 1940 Gentlemen: We believe that the time has arrived when we can give you a preliminary statement of the results of the work of Alcoholics Anonymous in Philadelphia since its inception in this city on February 20, 1940. This in effect is a ten months' report but for all practical purposes it can be considered only nine months because about a month was occupied in working out methods of prosecuting the activities. According to the records of the Group, which have been kept with reasonable accuracy, ninety-nine men and women have during this period attended at least two meetings of the A. A. Group. In other words, they have had a fair opportunity to familiarize themselves with the A. A. program of recovery as given at the Thursday night meetings held at Saint Luke's and Children's Hospital. Of the ninety-nine, seventy have remained dry without any slip at all; thirteen others are recovering from one or more slips, and sixteen have slipped without recovery up to the present time. It is not impossible that some of these sixteen may yet return to the Group. Of the seventy, who have been dry without slips, thirty-nine have been dry from one to three months; seventeen from three to six months; twenty-five from six months to a year, and five from one to three years. Obviously these five were not dried up through the activities of the Philadelphia A. A. Group but have recovered from alcoholism in other localities and through other means. You can see that the Philadelphia A. A. Group has a core of thirty men who, we have every reason to believe, will never drink again. Seventeen more have gotten by the three months' critical period. It has been our observation that the first three months are the most difficult and that the man who gets by that period has every reason to believe that he is on the road to complete recovery. We are even more sanguine of results which shall be achieved since we succeeded in opening our clubhouse about one month ago. It is being used extensively, especially by the unmarried men and is proving helpful not only as a social center but as a base for the spreading of the A. A. message. We can testify as physicians to the increasing interest in A. A. work among members of the medical fraternity and are grateful for the opportunity that the A. A. has given us of assisting in the recovery of the unfortunate victims of alcoholism. (Signed) A. W. Hammer M. D. - Surgeon (Signed) C. Dudley Saul, Chief Resident Saint Luke's Hospital ************************* Statistical Record of Philadelphia Alcoholics Anonymous Group (dated 9/29/41) The Philadelphia A. A. Group was formed February 27, 1940, with seven men as a nucleus. Six of these are definitely recovered cases. We consider a man or woman an active member of A. A. when they have been dry in the group two months and have attended at least six general meetings. We now have an ACTIVE MEMBERSHIP of one hundred and thirteen alcoholics, eighty-three of whom have not had a drink since their first A. A. meeting. Five of these have been dry from two to four years, twenty-seven dry from one to two years, forty-one dry from six to twelve months and twenty-six dry three to six months. Twenty-three of these active members came directly from the Philadelphia General Hospital, thirteen from other hospitals and institutions. There have been only twenty-three active members who do not appear to be recovering. These are not included in the above figures. Neither are the fifty other men and women who are now in the process of becoming members. This gives us a total general membership of Two Hundred men and women. To the best of our knowledge, the foregoing is correct. (Signed) Dr. A. Weise Hammer (Signed) Dr. C. Dudley Saul Medical directors IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4543. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: First 226 Akron members From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/12/2007 10:24:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: "t" (tcumming at nc.rr.com) Tom, Glenn, and Ernie, I got curious about this new document posted on Hindsfoot ... "first 226 Members Akron OH AA Group". Wondering how it compared to some of the other lists of early members. So I pulled out a couple I could find on hand ... 1. "First 100" list which contains both Akron and NY names in separate columns, and 2. a list of the authors from the First Ed of the Big Book. The following are a few from the above that don't make it on the new "first 266" list. I'll post this to ya'll individually ... I don't think we need to get another repeat of past discussions about how unreliable these lists can be, or a big thing about whether to list or delete past members who 'went back out'. I have notes by a few where their absence may be due to just problems with reading the original handwritten lists. I remember from when Nancy O was working on her list of bio's for Big Book authors that that can be a big problem at times. ------------------------ "First 100" [list] Edgar Reilly, Jr. * Paul N. * Phil Smith * Walter Bray Harold V. Grissinger Ed Andy [got sober in Oxford Gp] Henry J. Zoeller Jane Sturden Lloyd Tate William VanHorn [or could he be listed as VanPern due to handwriting?] Frank Curtis Bill Jones Earl Applebee DeForest Haylor [probably the Heyler on your list] J. Lee Lewis Tommy Milton John Munier Dr. H. A. Searls Alfred F. Smith [you list a Alfred S. Smith] Bill Smith Al Weltner [you list a Al Weitner] Clarence Whitwell HOWARD [the doctor mentioned by Earl Treat as the first to 12-step him] * list notes these as having slipped --------------------- First Edition Big Book Authors [not from NY area] Ralph F [The Another Prodigal Story] Walter B [The The Back-Slider story] Joe D [you list a Danchik and a Doppler] [The European Drinker story] Lloyd T [The Rolling Stone story] William VanHorn [or could he be listed as VanPern due to handwriting?] [the Ward of the Probate Court story] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4544. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: First 226 Akron members From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/12/2007 10:34:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Glenn Chesnut wrote "t" (tcumming at nc.rr.com) I think we ought to post your material on the AAHistoryLovers. The object is to get a list which is as accurate as we can make it, which doesn't mean absolute perfection. In some instances this means adding some names that probably should have been included, and in other instances it means noting that a name was spelled in two different ways. In the latter case, checking in the local library in the town where the person lived, and looking up the name in the old City Directories can sometimes allow us to give the correct spelling. My first name (Glenn), and particularly my last name (Chesnut), is mispelled regularly, but it's all the same person (grin)! But Tommy and I just wanted to get an idea of how accurate the list really was, and whether it was genuinely from the old days, and that was our sole intent. We finally decided that the best way to find out was to post it, and see what knowledgeable people like you had to say. Glenn - - - - From: "Ernest Kurtz" (kurtzern at umich.edu) To: Glenn Chesnut, "t" tcumming at nc.rr.com, and Tommy Hickcox (cometkazie1 at cox.net) Hi Glenn, I heartily agree with your continuing research objective and point of view. If the AA Big Book is not revealed Scripture dictated verbatim, the lists and memories from the early days are even more subject to revision and interpretation, to seeking out ever greater exactitude. I view all contributions to AAHL as tentative and inviting revision where appropriate, and I assume you post on the Hindsfoot with the same intention. We are seekers of the truth, not owners of it. ernie -------------------------- From: "Tom Hickcox" (cometkazie1 at cox.net) Wonderfully put, Ernie. If it's the truth, it can't be owned. I think we have a correction right here. Weitner should be Weltner. It fits perfectly. This is the feedback I was hoping for and I believe Glenn concurs. Thanks for your email. Tommy And to: "t" (tcumming at nc.rr.com) Al Weltner vs. Al Weitner The listing of this name is problematic. Most of the names on that page have their first two letters written in by hand. The name is between Welch and Whipple and would be out of place for Weitner. On my copy it looks like Wletner so I would suggest that you are probably correct. Weltner would be in the right place in the list. What I typed was my best take from an imperfect copy. Glenn posted it so knowledgeable people like you could give feedback and this is exactly what I was hoping for. I included what seemed to me mistakes as I didn't think it was up to me to correct them. One of the possible origins of this list is someone wanted to list members going back to the start, but if that is the case, why list addresses and phone numbers? It's an interesting list and by putting it up, we may get some good feedback like yours. Thanks again, Tommy IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4545. . . . . . . . . . . . the Set Aside Prayer From: Jeff . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/12/2007 7:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII My few years in AA had brought me into contact with the Set Aside Prayer: "God please help me to set aside everything I know about myself, the twelve steps, this book, the meetings, my disease and you God, so I may have an open mind and a new experience with all of these things. Please let me see the truth." I've used this prayer in this form and in varied, personized forms to great benefit in AA and in life. Does anyone working in AA history have any knowledge of its origin? Thanks, Jeff IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4546. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: the Set Aside Prayer From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/12/2007 11:05:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This prayer came from a sponsee of Joe H. from Santa Monica CA (Joe died recently). This sponsee put it together from statements in the Big Book that he was having trouble with. There is a good overview of what statements in the Big Book influenced this prayer at this new website: http://www.justloveaudio.com/ click on "free resources" then click on "12 Steps (Recovery)" then click on "Pre-Step Work" then click on "Set-Aside Prayer" Namaste. Just Love, Barefoot Bill IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4547. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: First 226 Akron members From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/13/2007 2:40:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In terms of dating that list which was posted by Tommy Hickcox (Baton Rouge), I ran into an old message from tcumming which may be helpful. If the Akron AA group had around 200 members as of October 1, 1940, a list with 226 members on it could not have been too much later than that, given the speed with which AA was growing in those days. Message #614 from tcumming: In an October 1, 1940 report to the Trustees, Bill W. estimated the A.A. membership as follows: Akron, Ohio 200 Jackson, Mich. 15 Baltimore, Md. 12 Little Rock, Ark. 27 Camden, NJ. 5 Los Angeles, Cal. 100 Chicago, Ill. 100 New York City 150 Cleveland, Ohio 450 Philadelphia, Pa 75 Coldwater, Mich. 8 Richmond, Va. 20 Dayton, Ohio 6 San Francisco, Cal. 15 Detroit, Mich. 30 Toledo, Ohio 6 Evansville, Ind. 24 Washington DC 100 Greenwich, Conn. 25 Waunakee, Wis. 20 Houston, Texas 30 Youngstown, Ohio 15 22 Cities 1433 Total - - - - Also from "t" (tcumming at nc.rr.com) Go ahead and post my information if you think enough in the group will be interested. You might add a request for any others who have access to various lists of early members to compare it with what they have and post their findings also. The more I look at the "266 Akron Members" list the more I wonder if it is not a new group secretary's effort to clean up and consolidate the membership list. It just looks too clean and orderly to be a membership list that has been used for a while [at least in it's typed out state on Hindsfoot]. The three groups where I have served as a group secretary, those working membership/phone lists get rather messy after a while ... many listed who have moved on [to other groups/towns, no longer attending meetings or back to drinking], and others with outdated info. If so, that could explain why some of the members from earlier lists may not appear on it. [NOTE FROM GLENN C: This is a very good point. The Akron mimeographed list is just as tidy and orderly as the retyped version we put up on the Hindsfoot site. And you're right, the list of AA names and phone numbers which I carry in my little planning notebook -- and have used for many months -- is full of corrections and deletions and additional names and numbers written between the lines and in the margins. Which is what you have to do as you continue to use such a list over the weeks and months.] A bit of additional Akron info: AA COMES OF AGE pg 22 mentions a Ken A moving from Akron to Detroit in 1938 [could that be the "Arthur, Kenneth" from your list? Also mentions Sadie beginning to stay dry in mid 1939 [could that be the "Irving, Sadie" from your list?] [both of these are listed with Chicago addresses on your list though?] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4548. . . . . . . . . . . . Requirement to Attend AA Unconstitutional From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/13/2007 7:21:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Appeals court says requirement to attend AA unconstitutional This article appeared on page B - 3 of the San Francisco Chronicle Bob Egelko, Chronicle Staff Writer, begelko@sfchronicle.com Saturday, September 8, 2007 Alcoholics Anonymous, the renowned 12-step program that directs problem drinkers to seek help from a higher power, says it's not a religion and is open to nonbelievers. But it has enough religious overtones that a parolee can't be ordered to attend its meetings as a condition of staying out of prison, a federal appeals court ruled Friday. In fact, said the Ninth U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco, the constitutional dividing line between church and state in such cases is so clear that a parole officer can be sued for damages for ordering a parolee to go through rehabilitation at Alcoholics Anonymous or an affiliated program for drug addicts. Rulings from across the nation since 1996 have established that "requiring a parolee to attend religion-based treatment programs violates the First Amendment," the court said. "While we in no way denigrate the fine work of (Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous), attendance in their programs may not be coerced by the state." The 12 Steps suggested for participants in both programs include an acknowledgment that "a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity" and a promise to "turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him." They also call for prayer and meditation. Friday's 3-0 ruling allows a Honolulu man to go to trial in a suit on behalf of his late father, Ricky Inouye, who was paroled from a drug sentence in November 2000. A Buddhist, he objected to religiously oriented drug treatment in prison, sued state officials over the issue and told Hawaii parole authori- ties just before his release that he would object to any condition that included a treat- ment program with religious content. When Inouye was arrested for trespassing in March 2001 and tested positive for drugs, his parole officer, Mark Nanamori, ordered him to attend a Salvation Army treatment program that included participation in Narcotics Anonymous meetings, the court said. Inouye showed up but refused to participate, dropped out after two months, and, for that and other reasons, was sent back to prison in November 2001 for violating his parole. After his release in 2003, he sued Nanamori and others for violating his constitutional rights. Inouye died while the suit was pending, and his son took over the case. A federal judge dismissed the suit, saying officers are required to pay damages for violating constitutional rights only when those rights are already clearly established. But the appeals court said Nanamori should have known in 2001 that coerced participation in a religion-based program was unconstitu- tional because eight state and federal courts had ruled on the issue by then and all had agreed that a parolee has a right to be assigned to a secular treatment program. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4549. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: the Set Aside Prayer From: humblejames007@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/14/2007 12:55:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Joe Hawk ... died May 27, 2007 in a hotel in Brazil. Undetermined cause. He had a hand in thousands of people achieving sobriety. - - - - Message #4546 from Bill Lash (barefootbill at optonline.net) This prayer came from a sponsee of Joe H. from Santa Monica CA (Joe died recently). This sponsee put it together from statements in the Big Book that he was having trouble with. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4550. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: the Set Aside Prayer From: Pat Jehn, RN, C . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/13/2007 12:27:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The first time I heard this prayer was at a workshop given by Wayne Butler and TJ in Pensacola, Fl. It is also in his workbook. Pat Jehn, RN,C LNC Independent Legal Nurse Consultant DeFuniak Springs, Fl 32435 850-951-9899 (PatJehn at EmbarqMail.Com) - - - - Message #4545 from "Jeff" (ofmyownmaking at earthlink.net) My few years in AA had brought me into contact with the Set Aside Prayer: "God please help me to set aside everything I know about myself, the twelve steps, this book, the meetings, my disease and you God, so I may have an open mind and a new experience with all of these things. Please let me see the truth." I've used this prayer in this form and in varied, personized forms to great benefit in AA and in life. Does anyone working in AA history have any knowledge of its origin? Thanks, Jeff IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4551. . . . . . . . . . . . pg 68 of The Big Book From: flat412acrehouse . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/16/2007 4:41:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII We would be grateful if you could enlighten us as to where the prayer on page 68 of the Big Book originates from: "We ask Him to remove our fear and direct our attention to what He would have us be. At once, we commence to outgrow fear." Thanking you in anticipation kindest regards and blessings Leah (leah at leahmeadows.wanadoo.co.uk) - - - - From the moderator: Leah, what is interesting to me is what is right before those two sentences on page 68 which you quote: "We never apologize for God. Instead we let Him demonstrate, through us, what He can do." The word "demonstrate" is the word that caught my eye. It is a technical term in Emmet Fox's theology, as we can see from reading his book on The Sermon on the Mount. The early AA people in New York City used to go and hear Fox preach on Sunday mornings, and he was a big influence on many early AA's in Akron as well (where his book was on their recommended reading list for newcomers). There on page 68 of the Big Book (and also on pages 14, 25, 49, 55, 78, and 98 of the Big Book) we see the word demonstrate or demonstration used in much the same technical way that Emmet Fox used it. So perhaps the answer to your question is, that the Big Book is still thinking about Fox's method of prayer in the two sentences that you quote. Glenn C. (In early AA here in South Bend, Indiana, where I live, where there was still one of the old groups which had all its members read Fox's Sermon on the Mount, and used it as one of the mainstays of their meeting, as late as the 1960's and 70's.) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4552. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Requirement to Attend AA Unconstitutional From: mchugh1652 . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/17/2007 9:28:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII > After his release in 2003, he sued Nanamori > and others for violating his constitutional > rights. Inouye died while the suit was pending, > and his son took over the case. Does any one know what Inouye died of? I couldn't come up with anything on a google search on him other than blogs bashing AA. Thanks, Peter IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4553. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: RE: the Set Aside Prayer From: Robyn Mitchell . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/20/2007 4:16:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In a workshop with Mark Houston called the Big Book Experience Joe Hawk says that the 'set aside prayer' came from his sponsor (Don Pritts) who told a younger Joe that he "knew enough about himself and alcoholism to be dangerous." He suggested that Joe say a prayer asking "God to set aside everything he thinks he knows." He says that Don P. was not too happy with Joe acknowledging him as the source because it had become ritualized. There are several other recordings of Joe telling this story and pointing out how his sponsee had changed the words from 'God - set aside' to 'God - help ME to set aside' what I think I know etc. regards Robyn IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4554. . . . . . . . . . . . Howard the ex-doctor? From: Robert . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/21/2007 7:31:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Has anyone ever identified Howard, the ex Doctor on pp. 260-261, BB 4th edition? The question can up in a BB study and I do not know. Diz Titcher diz49@embarqmail.com (diz49 at embarqmail.com) - - - - From the moderator: This is pp. 289-290 in the 3rd edit., for those who arre still using that. Howard's name appears in the story "He Sold Himself Short." Nancy Olson's bio gives us a lot about Earl Treat (whose story this is) but doesn't identify this particular figure: http://silkworth.net/aabiography/earltreat.html Anyone know the answer here? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4555. . . . . . . . . . . . National Archives Workshop in Niagra Falls From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/21/2007 7:14:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Thanks Phoenix for your hospitality at the 11th National Archives Workshop. The location for the 12th was chosen. It will be in Niagra Falls, New York. Let's make this next one the best one yet. It's always a pleasure to spend time with other AA's who have the same interests as do I. 12th Annual National AA Archives Workshop "HISTORY LIGHTS THE WAY" September 11-14, 2008 Niagara Falls, New York Days Inn (Niagara Resorts) 443 Main St., Niagara Falls, NY 14301 1-800-777-2280 or 716-284-8801 contact Tom B 716-895-8461 (tombar at aol.com) John D.716-773-3325 Janet N.K. 716-731-5546 (shamme4ever at aol.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4556. . . . . . . . . . . . Marty Mann''s Story From: Margaret Scarborough . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/23/2007 1:08:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello, I am developing a movie about Marty Mann's struggle and how she helped create NCA. Any comments are welcome. Is there anything in particular you would like to see in the film or hope to show the world about the history of AA? Feel free to email me directly at m_scarborough@sbcglobal.net (m_scarborough at sbcglobal.net) Thank you, Margaret IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4557. . . . . . . . . . . . See Bill W talk about the lst tradition From: humblejames007@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/23/2007 12:45:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII http://www.youtube.com/v/FTwYbRX5N78 <---click this to see an film of an obviously elderly Bill W talking about the Twelve Traditions and in particular the 1st tradition c. 1969 (he states in this film that the 12 steps appeared "thirty years ago" when the Big Book was published in 1939, so this was made only a year or two before his death on 24 January 1971). This is real....and powerful. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4558. . . . . . . . . . . . Conference approved literature - again From: Bent Christensen . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/23/2007 1:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dear Friends My homegroup like the early Akron pamphlets very much and are using them at our meetings. Unfortunately with the result that we are got into a heavy storm against non-conferenced- approved literature. Now based on what I've red here I was absolutely sure we were on firm ground but after I have read A.A. ®Guidelines Literature Committees I'm not quite so sure anymore. Among the many mails regarding this issue in message 4232 Arthur wrote: Some Conference advisory actions of interest that would attest to this: 1951 It was recommended that: In future years, A.A. textbook literature should have Conference approval. (Agenda Committee) Prior to the vote on this subject, it was pointed out that adoption of the suggestion would not preclude the continued issuance of various printed documents by non-Foundation sources. No desire to review, edit or censor non-Foundation material is implied. The objective is to provide, in the future, a means of distinguishing Foundation literature from that issued locally or by non-A.A. interests. 1961: The Committee recommended that G.S.O. explore the possibility of preparing a more adequate description of Conference-approved literature. 1964: Regarding pamphlets and literature other than that which is Conference-approved being displayed or sold at area and state conferences, it was the sense of the meeting that we have no authority in this area. It is to be noted that all Conference-approved literature should be made available at A.A. get-togethers. 1972: It be suggested that when a local A.A. facility (central office, intergroup, group, etc.) sells non-Conference-approved literature, it be clearly designated as such. The Conference has always voted to keep the two types of literature separate and clearly identified. It has never voted to ban non-Conference- approved literature. I addition the guidelines say this: A.A. ®Guidelines Literature Committees SOME GENERAL SERVICE CONFERENCE LITERATURE COMMITTEE ADVISORY ACTIONS It was recommended that: 1977: It was suggested that A.A. groups be discouraged from selling literature not distributed by the General Service Office and the Grapevine. 1986: The spirit of the 1977 Conference action regarding group literature displays be reaffirmed, and recommended the suggestion that A.A. groups be encouraged to display or sell only literature published and distributed by the General Service Office, the A.A. Grapevine and other A.A. entities. Personally I think the above it is a very dangerous path to walk, but my view on things is not the issue here. Can anyone please help me/us here. Is this still the fact or has someone come to their senses? Best regards Bent IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4559. . . . . . . . . . . . Leonard Blumenthal article - 2006/2007 From: momaria33772 . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/24/2007 11:52:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does any one remember a somewhat recent article, expressing the opinion that AA is becoming too "Institutionalized"??? Can you help me locate it? - - - - From the moderator: Can any of our AAHL members help us here? Was it in fact Leonard Blumenthal who wrote or spoke about this? See for example: http://www.sober.com/forums/thread/34416-News-about-AA.html http://thearidsite.tripod.com/12ATALK1.HTM http://thearidsite.tripod.com/12ATALK2.HTM Leonard Blumenthal was there at a regional forum where a questioner raised this issue: http://www.area59aa.org/Northeast%20Regional%20Forum%20Final%20Report.pdf Could this have been instead something like Bob P.'s speech at the General Service Conference in 1986? This has been brought back to notice during the last two or three years, because he stated this so clearly and powerfully: http://hindsfoot.org/archive3.html http://hindsfoot.org/pearson.html#rigid IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4560. . . . . . . . . . . . The 61 Rules, does a copy exist? From: sober_in_nc . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/24/2007 5:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I can see in the AA History Lovers Archive that the question has come up before, but without resolution. Does any have the text or a document or a PDF or a URL for the first 61 rules from the story in the 12&12 about "Rule #62"? [See Twelve Steps & Twelve Traditions pp. 147-149: Rule No. 62, "Don't take yourself too damn seriously."] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4561. . . . . . . . . . . . Birthday plan & its history From: route20guy . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/24/2007 6:32:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I am interested in the history of the "birthday plan," the tradition of members donating a set amount annually to GSO, or to regional central offices. I did a brief search in the group archives but didn't see anything specifically outlining the history of this custom and how it has evolved and been practiced over the years. Thanks! IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4562. . . . . . . . . . . . It''s in the book ... Scylla and Charybdis From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/24/2007 3:53:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I was at a tradition meeting this evening and someone reading didn't know the meaning of one word in the twelve and twelve. I was speaking to a couple of women there who were quite knowledgeable in AA and I mentioned that on a recent visit to the left coast there were dictionaries on the tables. I mentioned Scylla and Charybdis being in the Big Book. One lady said she did not remember seeing it and the other insisted that it was not in the 1st 164 pages. I thought I would pass this on. A dictionary should be available in every AA meeting. If a newcomer or anyone else can't pronounce or doesn't know the definition of a word in our basic text, how then can they be expected to know the meaning of the text? Dr.Bob's nightmare Pg 175 states," I was between Scylla and Charybdis now, because if I did not drink my stomach tortured me, and if I did my nerves did the same thing." "Between a rock and a hard place" is a modern, non-literary variation on the much older "Between Scylla and Charybdis." Homer, in "The Odyssey" (written about 850 B.C.), describes a perilously narrow sea passage his hero must navigate between Scylla, a terrifying monster, and Charybdis, a massive whirlpool. From Homer's time up until fairly recently, "Between Scylla and Charybdis" was a common metaphor for a perilous or difficult situation. With classical studies somewhat in eclipse these days (putting it mildly), the less demanding "Between a rock and a hard place" is far more commonly heard. Let us not forget that Dr. Bob was a learned man. In his day this expression was commonplace. It is not today. Likewise, many newer members do not know who John Barleycorn is. They just know what he does. Let's not just read it and expect that everyone knows its meaning. Let's pass on the meaning of the text and the history behind it when we share. Let's get others as interested in our history as we are. Thank you to the left coast groups for having a dictionary on the table. Going to Niagara Falls NY in 2008, Shakey Mike Gwirtz - - - - From the moderator: For John Barleycorn (and hey, we've even got a picture of him) see the bottom of the page here: http://hindsfoot.org/essays.html "John Barleycorn was the Old English mythical figure who represented the magic spirit of the barley and wheat and other grains that produced alcoholic beverages. When you attempted to 'kill John Barleycorn' by burying the grains of barley and wheat in the ground, he would just "come back to life again" by sprouting forth in new green sprouts." "As the psychiatrist Carl Jung explained, the only force more powerful than the spirit of John Barleycorn, was an even greater Spirit, that of the Higher Power whom alcoholics meet in the A.A. program." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4563. . . . . . . . . . . . Written Tenth Step? From: flat412acrehouse . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/25/2007 8:02:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII We were wondering if you knew where the idea came that we took "written" inventory at Step Ten? In The Big Book pg 84 it states, "This thought brings us to step Ten, which suggests we continue to take personal inventory and continue to set right any new mistakes as we go along." As you see there is no mention of writing inventory for the Tenth Step. The group did think that maybe it was splitting hairs but at the same time were keen if at all possible to find out. Thanking you kindly Best regards and Blessings leah - - - - From the moderator: Leah, this is a puzzle. The Fourth Step is supposed to be written, of course, but just in my own personal experience, I have never heard of anyone recommending that all AA members do a WRITTEN Tenth Step every day. Do the members of our group know any place where the idea of a written Tenth Step appears in any kind of AA literature? Is this a practice among AA groups in any part of the world? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4564. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: See Bill W talk about the lst tradition From: Doucet, Dale T . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/26/2007 5:33:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Tradition 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzokNc6qFUg Tradition 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQ1Hj913nVA IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4565. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Conference approved literature - again From: John Lee . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/26/2007 4:53:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Each group is autonomous. I don't understand why a "heavy storm" occurred, or what difference that would make. None of the Conference actions cited provides any sanctions against the groups. Conference actions are not binding on subsequent Conferences. Groups are free to display, sell, recommend or tout any literature they choose...Bibles, Koran, DaVinci Code, you name it. The only sanction that GSO [rarely] uses is to remove a group's name from a regional directory. john lee pittsburgh - - - - From glennccc@sbcglobal.net (glennccc at sbcglobal.net) I'm with John. It is my perception that during the late 1970's and 1980's -- in part as a reaction to the spread of alcoholism and addiction treatment centers that were publishing all sorts of crazy ideas, some of the AA people who went to New York got a little crazy, and started trying to pass rules that went against ALL of AA's traditional practices in this area. For a look at the traditional way that AA handled this issue, see "The Boks the Good Oldtimers Read" at http://hindsfoot.org/nread1.html http://hindsfoot.org/nread2.html http://hindsfoot.org/nread3.html The insurance companies in the U.S. quit funding these places during the 1990's, we no longer have thousands of these largely ineffective treatment centers operating and propagating their psycho- babble, and it has really become a dead issue by this point (2007). If you really want to get sober, you will read ANYTHING that might help you get sober. We're not playing ecclesiastical rules games, and committees setting up censorship lists when we're trying to keep from dying. And certainly anything that was widely admired and accepted in early AA -- like the early Akron pamphlets when Bent is concerned about -- are things that everybody in AA ought to read and learn something about. These were the guys who know how to achieve phenomenal success rates in getting alcoholics sober. Let's learn from them how they did this. Let's quit continuing the egotistical practice of passing hundreds and hundreds of rules, and start concentrating on saving people's lives. Rule 62? Ignore it, and AA will perish. Glenn C. - - - - Bent Christensen wrote: Dear Friends My homegroup like the early Akron pamphlets very much and are using them at our meetings. Unfortunately with the result that we are got into a heavy storm against non-conferenced- approved literature. Now based on what I've red here I was absolutely sure we were on firm ground but after I have read A.A. ®Guidelines Literature Committees I'm not quite so sure anymore. Among the many mails regarding this issue in message 4232 Arthur wrote: Some Conference advisory actions of interest that would attest to this: 1951 It was recommended that: In future years, A.A. textbook literature should have Conference approval. (Agenda Committee) Prior to the vote on this subject, it was pointed out that adoption of the suggestion would not preclude the continued issuance of various printed documents by non-Foundation sources. No desire to review, edit or censor non-Foundation material is implied. The objective is to provide, in the future, a means of distinguishing Foundation literature from that issued locally or by non-A.A. interests. 1961: The Committee recommended that G.S.O. explore the possibility of preparing a more adequate description of Conference-approved literature. 1964: Regarding pamphlets and literature other than that which is Conference-approved being displayed or sold at area and state conferences, it was the sense of the meeting that we have no authority in this area. It is to be noted that all Conference-approved literature should be made available at A.A. get-togethers. 1972: It be suggested that when a local A.A. facility (central office, intergroup, group, etc.) sells non-Conference-approved literature, it be clearly designated as such. The Conference has always voted to keep the two types of literature separate and clearly identified. It has never voted to ban non-Conference- approved literature. I addition the guidelines say this: A.A. ®Guidelines Literature Committees SOME GENERAL SERVICE CONFERENCE LITERATURE COMMITTEE ADVISORY ACTIONS It was recommended that: 1977: It was suggested that A.A. groups be discouraged from selling literature not distributed by the General Service Office and the Grapevine. 1986: The spirit of the 1977 Conference action regarding group literature displays be reaffirmed, and recommended the suggestion that A.A. groups be encouraged to display or sell only literature published and distributed by the General Service Office, the A.A. Grapevine and other A.A. entities. Personally I think the above it is a very dangerous path to walk, but my view on things is not the issue here. Can anyone please help me/us here. Is this still the fact or has someone come to their senses? Best regards Bent --------------------------------- Luggage? GPS? Comic books? Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4566. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: the Set Aside Prayer From: Mickey Peden . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/25/2007 1:30:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Here, in Columbus, Ohio some of us are reading the Big Book with the Set-Aside-Prayer. Thank you for this interesting background. I have subscribed to this email address for a long time, but, this is the first time I have printed anything out to share with others. I have learned so much from you all. Thanks again. Mickey mickeyp@columbus.rr.com (mickeyp at columbus.rr.com) - - - - From: humblejames007@aol.com (humblejames007 at aol.com) The Set Aside Prayer also is now refered to by many Joe Hawk Disciples as the Lay Aside Prayer. - - - - Original message from: Bill Lash Date: 9/12/2007 11:54:02 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: the Set Aside Prayer This prayer came from a sponsee of Joe H. from Santa Monica CA (Joe died recently). This sponsee put it together from statements in the Big Book that he was having trouble with. There is a good overview of what statements in the Big Book influenced this prayer at this new website: http://www.justloveaudio.com/ click on "free resources" then click on "12 Steps (Recovery)" then click on "Pre-Step Work" then click on "Set-Aside Prayer" Namaste. Just Love, Barefoot Bill [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4567. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: See Bill W talk about the lst tradition From: Margaret Scarborough . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/27/2007 2:47:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: "Margaret Scarborough" (m_scarborough at sbcglobal.net) Thank you for sending the link. There's some really great stuff in there! - - - - From: Ben Hammond (mlb9292 at yahoo.com) Thanks for this wonderful film ... can we see the rest of it? ... Thanks and God bless Ben H, Cape Coral, FL....new mail address mlb9292@gmail.com (mlb9292 at gmail.com) - - - - humblejames007@... wrote: > > http://www.youtube.com/v/FTwYbRX5N78 > > click this to see an film of an obviously > elderly Bill W talking about the Twelve > Traditions and in particular the 1st tradition > c. 1969 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4568. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: See Bill W talk about the lst tradition From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/26/2007 6:48:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Arthur S. (with additional comments by Jim S., Chris B., and Mark E.) The video was recorded shortly prior to Bill's death and is from an AAWS recording that can be purchased from GSO. It is titled "Bill Discusses The Twelve Traditions." He actually only discusses 10 of the Traditions. In an endearing improvisation he skips over two of them because they were running short of time in the filming. The material is copy- righted and I question whether it should be on YouTube - good intentions or not. There are quite a few good videos from AAWS including the AA Archives video "Markings on the Journey" (it has an older and newer version and both are a delight). It now is DVD. There is also a second video of Bill telling his story that is available from GSO. It too is a gem and has its own endearing feature of Lois sitting next to Bill outdoors at Stepping Stones and not saying a word during the filming. Cheers Arthur - - - - From: "Jim S." (james.scarpine at verizon.net) On page 12 of the 2007 Literature catalog the title, "Bill Discusses the Twelve Traditions" is preceded by two asterisks. In the bottom left hand corner is the note, "** These items are confidential and are available to A.A. members only. Please order through your group." The same copy appeared on another "AA" website and was soon removed, possibly because of copyright restrictions. Why would anyone want to post confidential material on youtube.com? Jim S. - - - - From: "Chris Budnick" (cbudnick at nc.rr.com) This is from an AA World Services, Inc. VHS titled “Bill Discusses the Twelve Traditions.” - - - - From: "Mark Everett" (mark at go-concepts.com) Hi all, Well, I'm fond of getting as close to the source as possible for my historical informa- tion. If anyone would like to see the movie, posted on you tube, in a higher quality presentation, try the General Service Office. There is the same video, in its original distributed VHS format. It is item VS-20, "Bill Discusses the Twelve Traditions" and it is a copyrighted item, so, I wonder about the posting on You Tube. Yours in Service Mark ***************************************** humblejames007@aol.com (humblejames007 at aol.com) http://www.youtube.com/v/FTwYbRX5N78 <---click this to see an film of an obviously elderly Bill W talking about the Twelve Traditions and in particular the 1st tradition c. 1969 (he states in this film that the 12 steps appeared "thirty years ago" when the Big Book was published in 1939, so this was made only a year or two before his death on 24 January 1971). This is real....and powerful. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4569. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Leonard Blumenthal article - 2006/2007 From: William Middleton . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/26/2007 7:36:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dear AAHLers, Mr. Blumenthal attended the Georgia State Service Assembly on September 15 and 16, 2007. I asked Mr. Blumenthal that exact question on Friday, Sept. 14, because I had heard that he said or wrote something about "Institu- tionalized AA." He explained that what he said was that AA in the US and Canada has become "institutionalized" because of Treatment Centers (his area of expertise). The essence was that many of today's AA's don't have the skill to do "12 Step Calls" because we allowed treatment centers to do that part of our job for many years. The rest of the world has not lost the skill to do "12 Step Calls" because they don't have the luxury of lots of treatment centers. With the changing of insurance rules to "2-3 day detox's," the rank and file of today's AA's in the US and Canada don't know how to do a "12 Step Call." I'm reasonably sure that he would be happy to explain the statement more fully, if you will write to him at PO Box 459, New York, NY 10163. Sincerely, Bill M. --------------------------------- Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4570. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr. O. Hobart Mowrer, confession and restitution From: Michael Gilbreath . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/28/2007 12:34:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "dino" wrote: > Did O. Hobart Mowrer have any influence of > any kind on AA thought? After entering recovery in Chicago (Lutheran General Hospital) in Dec. 1972, I spent the next 2+ years as a resident and then staff person at the Mustard Seed halfway house in Champaign Illinois (1973 - 75). At the time, the Executive Director of the Foundation was a man named Harlan S., an AA member and founder of the foundation. Through him I learned of Mowrer's work at the U of I. Somewhere in my files I have a copy of an original manuscript by Mowrer describing his vision of what he called "Integrity Group Therapy." As I understood it at the time, this was a model he was attempting to implement in his practice. The manuscript relies heavily on AA experience and theory in outlining a group therapy process that would be applicable to those with psychological challenges other than addiction. Based on this it would seem that rather than influencing AA, Dr. Mowrer was deeply influenced by it. Though at the time I did not get to meet him or participate in his work, as a very young would-be intellectual who was always testing the intellectual integrity of AA I found his work very reinforcing of my own recovery. Michael G. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4571. . . . . . . . . . . . Daily written 10th step moral inventory From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/28/2007 3:02:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: "Ken Ring" kring1@comcast.net (kring1 at comcast.net) My Daily Moral Inventory The story behind the various and sundry versions of this document were a mystery here for just over five years and the answers as to its history lay right in our archives collection. Just prior to the 2000 AA International Convention, held in Minneapolis, copies of a little 4-inch by 4-3/4-inch card, titled "Daily Moral Inventory," were dropped off by visitors from a group in Florida. They consisted of the essential text of the document across the page, except there was no reference to it being used as a "daily" checklist. The reverse of the card had the Serenity Prayer, St. Francis Prayer, a listing of the Principles behind the steps and meeting information for the group. There was no reference made about the source of the material that made up the concept. I handed out many hundreds of the cards that were left here for months following, as I know many others did, too. A single copy got thrown into our archives for later investigation and it was forgotten. A friend happened to have a nearly identical card that he had picked up from Dr. Bob's House in Akron, Ohio, on one of his many visits and he gave me an extra copy for my own use. This got me to thinking and I eventually located the original card and saw that the only difference was the groups that had it printed up -- there were no other changes and still no information about who may have originated the idea. While digging through the Alano Archives for something totally unrelated, I fell upon several copies of a newsletter from the St. Cloud Reformatory, titled "The Cloud Chaser" and published by the AA Group there. Inside was a copy of the original material from the edition of the AA Grapevine, that included the 31 daily columns for checking off our inventory items one at a time —- no guesswork, no excuses. They gave full credit to the AA Grapevine under the chart, which led me immediately to the AA Grapevine Digital Archives http://www.aagrapevine.org/da/ and thus the source volume and issue number let me wander over in the corner to the original hard-copy issue that was cited. Let us know if it is helpful. Make a copy for each month and file them away. It seems that it might be a valuable tool for sponsor to hand to sponsee. Ken R., archivist/historian - - - - The inventory consists of a chart containing squares, 17 squares from top to bottom (for the 17 matched sets of liabilities vs. assets) and 31 squares wide (for the days of the month): My Daily Moral Inventory Month_________ Year________ Check Results DAILY in Proper Column LIABILITIES Watch for < > ASSETS Strive for Self Pity < > Self Forgetfulness Self Justification < > Humility Self Importance < > Modesty Self Condemnation < > Self Valuation Dishonesty < > Honesty Impatience < > Patience Hate < > LOVE Resentment < > Forgiveness False Pride < > Simplicity Jealousy < > Trust Envy < > Generosity Laziness < > Activity Procrastination < > Promptness Insincerity < > Straightforwardness Negative Thinking < > Positive Thinking Vulgar, Immoral, Trashy Thinking < > High-Minded, Spiritual, CLEAN Thinking Criticizing < > Look for the GOOD Eliminate the Negative < > Accentuate the Positive CHECK THE SCORE EVERY NIGHT--TRY TO GET THE SLATE CLEAN [This version prepared by Mark W., Jackson MS via The AA Grapevine Volume 3 Issue 1 June 1946.] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4572. . . . . . . . . . . . AA History on ebay From: jblair101 . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/28/2007 4:11:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII At a friend's suggestion I finally visited ebay today for the first time and found the following general AA link: http://search.ebay.com/alcoholics-anonymous_W0QQfsooZ1QQfsopZ1QQftsZ1QQsagal Z1 While many of the items on the above link may not be of interest, click for current "Antiquarian & Collectible" AA books. For those in this group who are long-time ebayers, perhaps you can provide us beginners with "Twelve Steps to Surviving Ebay." John IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4573. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Conference approved literature - again From: Glenn F. Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/28/2007 4:24:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From John M. I thought I'd comment on Glenn's posting on 26 Sep 07 as regards his perception of the craziness and psycho-babble from the thousands of treatment centers somehow corrupting A.A. in the 70's and 80's. I respect Glenn's perception of those times, but having lived through them as a sober A.A. member who entered through an accredited hospital treatment center I'd like to add observations of my own. There were never "thousands" of treatment centers in the USA at any time; then or now. While it is true that the third party carriers quit paying for in-patient treatment for alcoholism, they continued to pay if the patient was diagnosed with a primary mental condition as the first disorder .. then the alcoholism could be addressed as a secondary issue. They never "funded" the treatment centers as such; that was left to state or local governments for state institutions. The primary reason these insurance companies demurred at paying were the ever-increasing daily charges for in-patient treatment. Like any prudent business they reined in claims for treatment for alcoholism while continuing to honor claims for disorders like "co-dependency", etc. As for psycho-babble, I'm not really sure what this is, but having been very familiar with treatment modems from more than a dozen treatment centers they all share one common theme: Get the alcohol out of the alcoholic and get the alcoholic into A.A. There's no magic there, but the goal of eventual long-term sobriety always ends with the patient main- taining his sobriety in Alcoholics Anonymous. Perhaps pure psycho-babble is what you pay for while in the care of a licensed psychologist or psychiatrist, but that's a matter of opinion, I suppose. It might surprise present day A.A. newcomers who think hospitals are a new fangled invention of treatment centers when a review our history reveals just the opposite. The original Akron group wouldn't admit anybody until they'd been through the St. Thomas Hospital, thoroughly dried out and having been visited by dozens of local A.A. members. Clarence Thomas, author of "Home Brewmeister", and the first to use the name, "Alcoholics Anonymous" for his meeting in Cleveland, Ohio, was intervened on by his family, put in the St. Thomas Hospital, and by his own account forced down on his knees to pray by none other than Dr. Bob himself ... behavior that could have been considered by some as "psycho-babble". Lastly, let me offer one very recent observa- tion. I attended an A.A. meeting on Wednesday of this week. Seated around the room were about 80 men and women. Of that number several were sober over ten years, others for 15 or 20 years and some for 25 and 30 years .. and all of them began their journey of happy destiny in treatment centers. They did not account for the majority of people in the room because most of the people there came directly into the fellowship on their own or from court referrals. Several years ago 5 of my closest A.A. friends and I marked our 25 year A.A. anniversaries together; all of whom had met while in the same treatment center in our home town. All of us do now, as we did then, move onward from the hospital where we first met and maintain our recovery in Alcoholics Anonymous. It's evident that some perceptions of treatment centers are flawed as if seen through an occluded window glass. John M., dos 7/22/78 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4574. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill and working the steps as shown in the 12 & 12 From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/26/2007 6:32:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Did Bill ever work the steps with a sponsor as written in the 12 & 12 and who would have been his sponsor? Father Ed Dowling in Pass It On page 241, listened to Bill's 5th step, but was there a written 4th step and someone who helped him with steps 6 thru 12? Could that have been Cliff Walker from Los Angeles? We know how Dr Bob did the steps. It was at first through the principles of the Oxford Group. He later gave comments and suggestions to Ed Webster when Ed was writing the early editions of The Little Red Book, and sent copies of it to AA members, and insisted that the New York office sell it, until Dr. Bob died in 1950, so that book explains the good doctor's views on working AA's twelve steps. I also wonder if anyone knows if Henry "Hank" Parkhurst worked the steps and if either he or Bill made direct amends to the other? Thanks for listening' Shakey Mike Gwirtz Going to Niagara Falls, New York for the 12th National Archives Workshop Sept 08 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4575. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Marty Mann''s Story From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/26/2007 4:34:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Mel B. (with comments by Gerry D., and Margaret S.) - - - - Hi Margaret, Glad to hear about your project. I knew Marty and heard her speak several times, beginning in 1951. I believe you can make a good case that she helped women accept their alcoholism along with all her other good work in NCA [National Council on Alcoholism]. I also interviewed Marty at her home a few months before she died. She introduced me to Priscilla Peck, who had Alzheimers by then. Mel Barger Toledo, Ohio melb@accesstoledo.com (melb at accesstoledo.com) - - - - Original message from: Margaret Scarborough Hello, I am developing a movie about Marty Mann's struggle and how she helped create NCA. Any comments are welcome. Is there anything in particular you would like to see in the film or hope to show the world about the history of AA? Feel free to email me directly at m_scarborough@sbcglobal.net (m_scarborough at sbcglobal.net) Thank you, Margaret - - - - From: gerry donaghy (frankaaaa2006 at yahoo.co.uk) I just think it would be an excellent movie if you got the right person to play her, it would be like the female version of My Name is Bill W which was a great movie. Women played a big part in AA,like here in Ireland it was Margaret F. who persuaded Connor F. to start AA in Ireland. Good luck with your movie. - - - - From: "Margaret Scarborough" (m_scarborough at sbcglobal.net) Hello, I am proud to announce that I own the option on a Beverly Allen screenplay based on the book by Sally & David Brown. Thank you for the chance to tell this story. Margaret IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4576. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Conference approved literature - again From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/26/2007 6:05:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Bent and Friends: Thank you, Bent, for bringing us up to date on the literature discussion in Denmark. As the author of non-conference approved litera- ture, I'm not entirely neutral on this issue, but I would like to add some thoughts for consideration: 1) In the 1950s, much "outside" literature was available at meetings. In Pontiac, Michigan, in 1951, a member helped me out of a very bad period of resentment by urging me to buy Emmet Fox's "The Sermon on the Mount," which was sold at meetings. The same book has been a big help over the years. It was used by Bill W. and the other AA pioneers and can be just as helpful today. 2) The Akron-produced pamphlets, which are still supplied by the Akron Central Office, have been very helpful over the years and do not violate either the Traditions or the principles of the AA program. Dr. Bob and the other AA pioneers in Akron approved them and also used them in sponsoring newcomers. You are on solid ground in translating them for Danish use. 3) The stock of conference-approved literature does not cover all the needs and concerns of AA members. If it did, there would be no market for all the recovery-related literature being produced outside the Fellowship. 4) Unfortunately, the term conference-approved is sometimes taken to mean that members should not read other publications. This results in de facto censorship even if that is not the intent of the general service conference. I do hope the Akron pamphlets survive in Denmark. They can be very helpful. Mel Barger melb@accesstoledo.com (melb at accesstoledo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4577. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Conference approved literature - again From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/28/2007 1:25:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Bent My impression from your message is that the controversy is coming from within your group not outside it. If that is the case, then I must respectfully disagree with John and Glenn. First off, GSO does not resort to removing a group from a Regional Directory as a "sanction" and Delegates don't go to Conferences to manu- facture "hundreds of rules" and Conference advisory actions are not "a very dangerous path." So let's all pause with a moment of silence, then say the serenity Prayer and then tone down the hyperbole. After all, in the spirit of rule #62, I've suggested at least a million times not to exaggerate. My home group follows a practice of only using and selling Conference-approved literature. That's what our informed group conscience decided with substantial unanimity. The group conscience process is supposed to be the "ultimate authority" according to a fair-minded reading of Tradition 2 and Concept 1. It's a very democratic way of resolving the matter but not necessarily to everyone's satisfaction. If all parties respect the group conscience decision it's a recipe for unity. If individual members decide to autonomously and unilaterally do whatever they want, it's a recipe for divisive- ness. If you haven't yet done so, you should try to obtain a group conscience decision on the matter in a forum of civil discussion (not heated debate). Explain that the pamphlets are historic "AA literature" and preceded the Conference. The pamphlets are reputed to have been written by Akron, Ohio member Evan W at the suggestion of Dr Bob. The 1986 Conference advisory action you cite as "dangerous" actually supports what you would like to do. It expands upon the 1977 advisory action you cite and recommends in the main " ... that A.A. groups be encouraged to display or sell only literature published and distributed by the General Service Office, the A.A. Grapevine and other A.A. entities." The pamphlets of interest are published and distributed by the Akron Intergroup Office. They are one of those "other AA entities." However, if the group conscience decides against it - don't fight it. You don't have to agree with the decision but if the common welfare of the group is to come first then cooperate with the decision in the spirit of unity. Cheers Arthur - - - - From (glennccc at sbcglobal.net) Arthur makes one especially good point here. The 1986 Conference advisory action recommends "that A.A. groups be encouraged to display or sell only literature published and distributed by the General Service Office, the A.A. Grapevine and other A.A. entities." The key phrase is the inclusion of works published by "other A.A. entities." It was pretty much an understood rule in early A.A. (if you look at letters and advice coming from the New York office) that A.A. groups could read and sell any A.A. literature sponsored and printed for the use of another A.A. group (if they desired to) without writing letters to New York or any other involved discussion. As Arthur points out, the Akron pamphlets were thereby automatically O.K. to display and sell and read from in meetings, because they were originally written and printed under the sponsorship of the Akron A.A. group. And this same provision would likewise automatically cover a number of other traditional A.A. works that are an important part of our A.A. historic heritage, including: Twenty-four Hours a Day, sponsored by the group in Daytona Beach, Florida The Tablemate, sponsored and printed by a large number of early A.A. groups (Detroit, Washington D.C., Seattle, Oklahoma City, Minneapolis, etc.). The Little Red Book, sponsored by the Nicollet Group in Minneapolis IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4578. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Clarence Thomas? From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/28/2007 8:12:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Who is Clarence Thomas and is he an AA member? Where is St. Thomas Hospital and was it named after Clarence Thomas and when did Mr. Thomas get canonized? In Message 4573, John M. wrote: > From John M. > > The original Akron > group wouldn't admit anybody until they'd been > through the St. Thomas Hospital, thoroughly > dried out and having been visited by dozens > of local A.A. members. Clarence Thomas, > author of "Home Brewmeister", and the first > to use the name, "Alcoholics Anonymous" for > his meeting in Cleveland, Ohio, was intervened > on by his family, put in the St. Thomas > Hospital, and by his own account forced > down on his knees to pray by none other than > Dr. Bob himself ... behavior that could have > been considered by some as "psycho-babble". > > John M., dos 7/22/78 - - - - See Clarence Snyder, "The Home Brewmeister" in: http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/Authors.htm#Clarence%20H.%20Snyder at http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/Authors.htm And for the Big Book story: http://silkworth.net/bbstories/274.html IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4579. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Conference approved literature - again From: James Bliss . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/27/2007 12:03:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII To go along with the 'group is autonomous' statement, the top of the Guidelines for Literature Committees states: ... In keeping with our Tradition of autonomy except in matters affecting other groups or A.A. as a whole, most decisions are made by the group conscious of the members involved. The purpose of these Guidelines is to assist in reaching an informed group conscience. The guidelines are not rules of law, and should not be treated that way, although there are people who seem to want to do so. Each group makes their own decision. It should always be remembered that the Big Book did not exist in the early years of AA and that there was a list of literature which they recommended (as Glenn references below). > "The Books the Good Oldtimers Read" at > http://hindsfoot.org/nread1.html > http://hindsfoot.org/nread2.html > http://hindsfoot.org/nread3.html None of that literature is published or distributed by the GSO. And, personally, I believe the Big Book trumps anything which the GSO says or recommends. On page 28 it states: "The distinguished American psychologist, William James, in his book "Varieties of Religious Experience," indicates a multitude of ways in which men have discovered God." Sort of difficult to discuss that in depth without having read that book (not GSO published and distributed). And (page 97): "There are many helpful books also. Suggestions about these may be obtained from one's priest, minister, or rabbi. Be quick to see where religious people are right. Make use of what they offer." Here the Big Book specifically recommends using books which were available before the GSO even existed, or outside of what the GSO publishes and distributes. In addition, an Advisory Action does not follow all of the required actions of coming up from the groups, through the areas to the GSO. it just occurrs on the GSO floor with no input from the majority of AA. And, as John stated, they are not binding on subsequent conferences, or on AA as a whole. Let the independent group conscience prevail and not the opinions of GSO. And, seek guidance from the Big Book first. It is where it all began, continues to work, and will continue to work as long as it is not changed. Finally, playing the devil's advocate, your group discussion was not about what was being "displayed and sold", but what was going to be read and discussed. So, technically, the advisory opinion does not apply since the advisory opinion only covers retailing activities. And if this is carried to an extreme, we could not even use a Dictionary to look up the meaning of words during a meeting. Sorry, a bit wordy here. Jim IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4580. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Conference approved literature - again From: Peter Tippett . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/27/2007 12:43:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Peter Tippett (with comments from Cliff Bishop, Baileygc23, James Blair in Canada, and Jay Moore in Akron) - - - - The dis/misunderstanding of the term "conference approved literature" has gone on for as long as I can remember and I'm sure it will continue for so long as the term exists because of its inference. There is an inference, albeit not true, that Alcoholics Anonymous only approves of certain literature, that literature being "AA literature", i.e. the Big Book, 12x12, etc. and that members of AA should only read AA Conference Approved Literature. Actually, the term is literal. As AA acts as its own publisher, The Conference, via recommendations by the Literature Committee(s), approves of what we (AA) prints and distributes, hence "AA Conference Approved Literature", meaning that the General Service Conference has approved its printing! To make the assertion that we should only read "AA Conference Approved Literature" is contrary to our most important piece of "AA Conference Approved Literature" which says on page 87, "There are many helpful books also. Suggestions about these may be obtained from one’s priest, minister, or rabbi. Be quick to see where religious people are right. Make use of what they offer." Although he was speaking about something else, Dr. Silkworth wrote, "This immediately precipitates us into a seething cauldron of debate." But we're only addressing the "Conference Approved Literature" in this post, not one of the other ongoing debates, that of religion and AA. Wishing to remain resigned from the debating society as the 12x12 suggests, Pete - - - - From: CBBB164@AOL.COM (CBBB164 at AOL.COM) According to Bill's comments regarding what an A.A. Group does is totally subject to the Group Conscience. He makes the statement, "Every group had the right to be wrong." The Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions" pg. 147. In God's love and service, Cliff Bishop 214-350-1190 http://www.ppgaadallas.org/ - - - - From: Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com) AA says the conference shall not perform any act of government. - - - - From: James Blair (jblair at videotron.ca) Brent wrote "My homegroup like the early Akron pamphlets very much and are using them at our meetings. Unfortunately with the result that we are got into a heavy storm against non-conferenced- approved literature." Do what your group conscience directs and to hell with the control freaks. These arguments center around money. Jim - - - - From: (Jayaa82 at earthlink.net) First, there is a difference in Pre-Conference historic literature, the Akron pamphlets were commissioned by Dr. Bob and done well before the first Conference Second, the guidelines are correct, what GSO asks is that non-conference literature be clearly marked as such and seperated. The GSO and Conference group conscience is not to ban books, just don't mix them up Jay Moore...Akron IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4581. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Conference approved literature - again From: David Johnson . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/29/2007 3:18:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Thanks to John M. for narrating a side of history that's usually given a stereotyped and negative slant. Two items: My step son is in treatment right now. It's being provided through his insurance. It has taken him off the streets and is introducing him to concepts that may save his life. The only concepts, by contrast, he was learning out in the community, was who had the cheapest drinks. Second item: the oldest living AA member on our little island, with 33 years of sobriety was either the first or one of the first residents of this state formally committed by the courts to a treatment center. When this topic comes up and everyone weighs in on it, he simply replies: "I'm for it, but that's only because it worked for me." - - - - From the moderator: The classic work on the change in the American government's rules and policies during the 1970's, which still form the basis for running and financing a great number of modern American treatment centers, was written by Nancy Olson (the founder of this AAHistoryLovers group): "With a Lot of Help from our Friends: The Politics of Alcoholism," 2003. This book is practically required reading for executives in the U.S. Surgeon General's Office and a number of the larger granting agencies. http://hindsfoot.org/kNO1.html Her book skillfully describes the three-way tussle in the U.S. Senate hearings, between the A.A. people, the psychiatrists who wanted to grab all of the appropriation money (and control over the program) for themselves, and those who wished to appropriate all of the government money for treating drug addiction instead of alcoholism. Also see, of course, the classic work, William L. White, "Slaying the Dragon: The History of Addiction Treatment and Recovery in America" And also Sgt. Bill S. with Glenn F. Chesnut, Ph.D., "On the Military Firing Line in the Alcoholism Treatment Program," which tells the story of how Sgt. Bill formed the first officially sanctioned military alcoholism treatment programs in the U.S., at Mitchel Air Force Base on Long Island in 1948, and later at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio, Texas, in the early 1950's. Sgt. Bill is also the ONLY spokesman (whose words have survived) from that important wing of early A.A. which interpreted the A.A. program in psychological terms rather than using heavily religious language, and was committed to establishing treatment programs where good psychiatric help would be available. He also has a chapter of his observations on Sister Ignatia's treatment program at St. Thomas Hospital in Akron, where he praises her and her program to the skies. Glenn C. (Sgt. Bill's co-author in that project) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4582. . . . . . . . . . . . Stepping Stones in Bedford Hills NY From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/29/2007 7:44:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Alcoholics Anonymous Founder's House Is a Self-Help Landmark By LISA W. FODERARO The New York Times Published: July 6, 2007 http://www.nytimes.com:80/2007/07/06/nyregion/06aa.html?ex=1184385600&en=a4e 89f2\ 7513b9d9e&ei=5070&emc=eta1 [4] BEDFORD HILLS, N.Y., July 3 The house tour was nearing an end in this Westchester County hamlet, in a region known for its historic sites, from pre-Revolutionary grist mills to Gilded Age mansions. But as the visitors entered the austere pine-paneled office that once belonged to Bill Wilson, a co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous, the tour suddenly became a pilgrimage. Jean Z. sat down at the smooth oak desk on which Bill W., as he was known, wrote "Alcoholics Anonymous," or the Big Book, and smiled as her A.A. sponsor snapped a picture. Then they switched. "This, to me, would be the equivalent of a Christian going to the Vatican," said Jean, of Long Island, who has been in A.A. for two years and gave only her last initial in keeping with the program's tradition of anonymity. "To think that he just sat at this desk, a simple man who had a problem and wanted to get better. It's touched my life and saved my life." For many visitors to Stepping Stones, the gracious Dutch colonial-style house where Mr. Wilson lived with his wife, Lois, for the last 30 years of his life before dying of emphysema in 1971, there is, indeed, something profoundly personal, even spiritual, about the experience. It has been open to the public since 1988, when Mrs. Wilson died at 97. With no children, she left it to the Stepping Stones Foundation, which she had set up in the hope that the site would educate and inspire future generations. Set on eight wooded acres, the house was purchased by the Wilsons in 1941, several years after Mr. Wilson, a stockbroker, had his last drink and founded Alcoholics Anonymous with Dr. Bob Smith, an Ohio surgeon. So much early A.A. business was conducted here that for a time the organization subsidized some of the couple's housing costs. This is also where Mrs. Wilson in 1951 created Al-Anon, an offshoot of A.A. for the family members of alcoholics. The tours were informal at first. But two years ago, the house became listed on the National Register of Historic Places. And this spring New York State added Stepping Stones to its new Women's Heritage Trail, in recognition of Mrs. Wilson's contributions to the self-help program that has become a model for treating addiction around the world. A.A. is a free, voluntary fellowship of men and women who meet to help one another become and stay sober through a 12-step recovery program. There are an estimated 100,000 A.A. groups in 150 countries, with more than two million members. The Big Book, the program's bible, has sold nearly 25 million copies. Many other 12-step programs were inspired by A.A., like Narcotics Anonymous and Debtors Anonymous. "A.A. and Al-Anon are unquestionably among the greatest social movements of the 20th century, so it's a very important site," said Richard White-Smith, director of Heritage New York, a program of the state's Office of Parks, Recreation and Historic Preservation, which develops heritage trails that consist of historic sites linked by a common theme. These days, tours are available by appointment seven days a week. "Unlike most museums, we get these hysterical phone calls," said Annah Perch, executive director of the foundation, which owns and operates the property. "I got a call recently from a woman who said, 'I'm in Penn Station and I'm from Ireland and this is the only day I can come.'" Every June, hundreds of A.A. members arrive for the organization's annual family groups picnic, a tradition the Wilsons started in 1952. Occasionally, a nearby A.A. or Al-Anon convention brings a crush of visitors. Last Labor Day, 1,200 Hispanic members of A.A. met at a hotel in Rye and descended on Stepping Stones throughout the weekend. On the daily house tours, about 60 percent of visitors are members of A.A. and 30 percent are members of Al-Anon. But both Ms. Perch and state officials hope that will change. "There's an important story here for the general public to understand," Mr. White-Smith said. Stepping Stones is now hiring an archivist to continue the work of cataloguing the Wilsons' possessions, including the most significant items, now in storage, like the first copy of the Big Book to roll off the press. On Tuesday, the group included Frank W., of Malvern, Ohio, who has been an A.A. member for 22 years, here with three generations of his family. "This is pretty awesome," he said, after lingering over memorabilia like a letter to Mr. Wilson from Carl Jung, and a photograph of Richard M. Nixon receiving the millionth copy of the Big Book. "I prayed for two or three years not to drink, and I drank every day," he said, choking up. "I was going to lose my wife and my children. Everything I have, I owe to A.A." In the house, with its mahogany antiques handed down from Mrs. Wilson's family, it seems as if the couple were still alive. In the master bedroom, a can of PermaSoft hair spray still sits on Mrs. Wilson's vanity, along with a single bobby pin. In another area, a box of Wash 'n Dri and a can of lighter fuel share space with books. While the desk in Mr. Wilson's office was the one on which he wrote the Big Book, it belonged to a friend who had lent him an office in Newark for the project. The desk was eventually moved to Stepping Stones, and Mr. Wilson wrote later works in the studio office here, including "Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions." There was a faded copy of that book on the desk, along with a first edition of "Alcoholics Anonymous." Jean Z.'s sponsor, Louise, touched the books as Jean took her picture. "What a gift," she said. "I could almost cry." Ms. Perch was ready with a reassuring word: "We always say it's not a successful tour unless at least one person cries." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4583. . . . . . . . . . . . Fr Dan Dargan From: Fiona Dodd . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/29/2007 10:30:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A bit of little known Irish AA history. Fiona The death has taken place in Dublin of Jesuit Father Dan Dargan SJ, aged 92 years. He was a well known figure in every parish North and South and will be remembered as the man who brought the biggest ever crowd to Croke Park. Almost 115,000 gathered in the stadium in 1959 to celebrate the diamond jubilee of the Pioneer Total Abstinence Association of which he was then Central Director. Fr Dargan was the great grand-nephew of William Dargan, a railway pioneer after whom railway bridges in Belfast and in Dublin are named. Fr Dargan cut the ribbon on the Luas Bridge in Dundrum, named in honour of his great grandfather who brought railways to many parts of Ireland. According Fr Barney McGuckian SJ, Spiritual Director and former Director of the Pioneer Association, "Fr. Dargan was a most selfless man who had a tremendous social concern to improve the quality of family life in rural and urban Ireland. He gave a warm welcome to Alcoholic Anonymous when it first came on the scene here and shared various platforms with them on many an occasion because he saw its great potential. He will be sadly missed by his Jesuit colleagues and the many friends he had all over the country." When Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) first came to Ireland in 1946 the then Central Director of the Pioneers, Fr. Daniel Dargan S.J., welcomed it with open arms and offered a platform to AA members at Pioneer gatherings. The two movements complemented one another. The principal focus of AA was to help problem drinkers come to terms with their situation. The P.T.A.A. was primarily conceived as a prayer and prevention movement whose members, even if not personally affected by addiction, were willing to give a penitential expression to their concern for those who were. Fr Dargan was born in Jan.1915 in St Stephen's Green, Dublin. He joined the Jesuits in 1933 and did some of his studies in Tullabeg Co. Offaly. He was sent to Gardiner St Parish where he worked with the Pioneer Association. And from there to Galway where he was parish priest for eight years before going to the Sacred Heart Church in the Crescent , Limerick. He left Limerick and returned to Dublin five years ago, living in the Jesuit Cherryfield Nursing Home where he died peacefully this morning. Summing up his life at 90 in an interview for the Jesuit publication Interfuse he said, "Well, I will say my life in the Jesuit Society has been very happy. If I began all over again, I’d enter the Society. People have been good to me. I’ve had good friends." Fr. Dan Dargan SJ was himself a great friend to many. Ar dheis Dé go raibh a anam. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4584. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Written Tenth Step? From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/28/2007 1:36:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Leah I do love and study the Big Book's content and history. And I don't get a sense of it being written to be micro-parsed as Canon to divine what is or isn't correct or proper Step procedure. Doing so creates a situation where a search for strict protocol takes precedence over a search for spiritual substance. Step 10 encourages the continuation of the lessons learned in Steps 4 thru 9. I'd prefer to not make it any more complicated or definitive than that. Sometimes it can be far more constructive to stand back and assess the Steps as an entire cohesive package as opposed to becoming mired in one of them on a search for a single word. The 12&12 essay on Step 10 offers a variety of suggestions on daily and less frequent inventories. It also suggests allowing the inventory to evolve into the form of a "balance sheet" instead of just a list of liabilities and states: "Although all inventories are alike in principle, the time factor does distinguish one from another. There's the spot check inventory, taken at any time of the day, whenever we find ourselves getting tangled up. There's the one we take at day's end, when we review the happenings of the hours just past. Here we cast up a balance sheet, crediting ourselves with things well done, and chalking up debits where due. Then there are those occasions when alone, or in the company of our sponsor or spiritual adviser, we make a careful review of our progress since the last time. Many A.A.'s go in for annual or semiannual house cleanings. Many of us also like the experience of an occasional retreat from the outside world where we can quiet down for an undisturbed day or so of self-overhaul and meditation." The essay goes on to recommend that we learn to assess both what's wrong and what's right. It states: "When evening comes, perhaps just before going to sleep, many of us draw up a balance sheet for the day. This is a good place to remember that inventory-taking is not always done in red ink. It's a poor day indeed when we haven't done something right. As a matter of fact, the waking hours are usually well filled with things that are constructive. Good intentions, good thoughts, and good acts are there for us to see. Even when we have tried hard and failed, we may chalk that up as one of the greatest credits of all. Under these conditions, the pains of failure are converted into assets. Out of them we receive the stimulation we need to go forward. Someone who knew what he was talking about once remarked that pain was the touchstone of all spiritual progress. How heartily we A.A.'s can agree with him, for we know that the pains of drinking had to come before sobriety, and emotional turmoil before serenity." When the Big Book was published in April 1939, there were 2 groups and around 100 members. When the 12&12 was Conference-approved in April 1953 there were approximately 6,000 groups and 130,000 members. An enormous amount of accumulated experience evolved between publication of the two books written by the same author. It is very worthwhile to allow the experience chronicled in the 12&12 to enhance the experience chronicled in the Big Book. In my own circumstances a written inventory is a very effective means of helping my memory which is prone to the human failings of omission, evasion and rationalization. I prefer doing an inventory as it is suggested in the Big Book for Step 4 but also take a hard look at the "seven deadly sins" as it is suggested in the 12&12 in Step 4 essay and I could care less whether it's called "Step 4" or "Step 10." Step 4 is the beginning of the inventory process. Step 10 essentially says "don't stop it." I don't see it as constructive to get overly focused on whether an inventory should be written or oral. Each individual can determine what works best for them. Permission to do that doesn't have to be contained in any book. It's simply a function of learning how to make good sober decisions by drawing on your own experience and that of others. It might be worthwhile perceiving the notion of an "inventory" with the same latitude as perceiving the notion of "exercise." Some people choose to run, some walk, some use gym equipment, some swim, etc. All are different means to the same productive end. Similarly, the substantive part of spiritual self- examination (an inventory) has different means to achieve the same productive end. The practice of exercise strengthens our physical condition. The practice of an inventory strengthens our spiritual condition. Cheers Arthur IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4585. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Written Tenth Step? From: george cleveland . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/26/2007 11:55:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From George Cleveland (with additional comments by Cliff Bishop) - - - - It has been suggested to me and I have suggested to others, that if a particularly antsy situation comes up in the 10th Step daily review, it can't hurt to write it out in the four column format that is part of Step 4. Catch the problem before it gets too big. But such a suggestion [that a written 10th Step inventory should be taken every day] does not appear anywhere that I have seen. George - - - - From: CBBB164@AOL.COM (CBBB164 at AOL.COM) Continue to watch for selfishness, dishonesty, resentment, and fear. (Step Four) When these crop up, we ask God at once to remove them. (Steps Six & Seven) We discuss them with someone immediately (Step Five) and make amends quickly if we have harmed anyone. (Steps Eight & Nine) Then we resolutely turn our thoughts to someone we can help. (Step Twelve) Doesn't leave much time for writing. In God's love and service, Cliff Bishop 214-350-1190 http://www.ppgaadallas.org/ IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4586. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Written Tenth Step? From: Bent Christensen . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/27/2007 3:26:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In favor of making it written, from Bent Christensen (with additional comments by Andrey, Clyde G., Jeff. E., Angela Corelis, and Ken Ring) I think many or even most treatments here in Denmark recommend that people do a written Tenth Step every evening. From the excerpts of the chapter Step 10 in Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions beneath, I think one could argue that Step 10 is supposed to be written? There's the one we take at day's end, when we review the happenings of the hours just past. Here we cast up a balance sheet, crediting ourselves with things well done, and chalking up debits where due. When evening comes, perhaps just before going to sleep, many of us draw up a balance sheet for the day. This is a good place to remember that inventory-taking is not always done in red ink. As we glance down the debit side of the day's ledger, we should carefully examine our motives in each thought or act that appears to be wrong. Bless Bent - - - - From: "and25g" (and25g at gmail.com) I just attended the Fellowship of the Spirit Conference in New York and the speakers were talking about daily written inventories. Also, some of the members of my home group are sponsored by members of one of the groups in Staten Island, New York, where the common practice among many of their members is to write daily inventories. So I would say that some AA groups seem to be very strong on writing your inventory daily. .... I wanted to find where this was suggested in our literature myself and I could not. Thank you, Andrey - - - - From: "CloydG" (cloydg449 at sbcglobal.net) How does one do an inventory without writing it? I've studied the BB and have attended many BB studies on step 10. I have never heard anyone ever disagree that Bill intended step 10 to be combination of the 9 previous steps; though only 4 thru 9 are mentioned .... In love and service, Clyde G. - - - - From: "jeff e." (ofmyownmaking at earthlink.net) Maybe it's just inferred from the language used? Usually if something is continued, I take it to mean to do what you did before - again. But as they say, don't let anyone read your big book for you. - - - - From: Angela Corelis (acorelis at yahoo.com) According to my dictionary: inventory, n., written list of items on hand. - - - - From: Ken Ring (ken2218 at comcast.net) See "My Daily Moral Inventory," June 1946, Vol. 3, No. 1, AA Grapevine-Digital Archive There is a representation of a listing of Assets to Strive For and Liabilities to Watch For. An admonition to Check Results Daily. While this may not be a "written" form of 10th Step Inventory, it does require pencil and paper (albeit a printed form). I have been using it for a few years - daily - with noticeable results, like timely amends. Separately it has led me to writing out a l ot more and doing a much more thorough job of 4th Step Inventory. I hand out copies at our Archives Displays. Ken R., Dist. 18 Archives Chair, Area 36 Associate Archivist P.S. I'll happily email a copy to anyone if you contact me at this email address (specify MS Word or Adobe Acrobat PDF): ken2218@comcast.net (ken2218 at comcast.net) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4587. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Daily written 10th step moral inventory From: davidrstack . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/28/2007 9:32:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII My sponsor gave me the following 10th and 11th step inventory and told me to write it out every evening before I go to bed. Date: ___/___/___ 10th/11th Step The Twelve Nightly Questions Chronology of today's events 1. How was I resentful? (If so, do 4-column inventory) 2. How was I selfish? 3. How was I dishonest? 4. How was I afraid? 5. Do I owe an apology? Who did I help today? 6. What have I wrongly kept secret? 7. Was I unkind? (cruel, harsh, unfeeling) What did I accomplish today? 8. Was I unloving? (cold, unresponsive, indifferent) 9. What could I have done better? What am I grateful for today? 10. Was I thinking of myself most of the time? 11. Was I thinking of what I could do for others? Who needs my prayers today? 12. Was I thinking what I could pack into the stream of life? But we are careful not to drift into worry, remorse, or morbid reflection, for that would diminish our usefulness to others. After making our review we ask God's forgiveness and inquire what corrective measure should be taken. We say a Prayer: "God, please forgive me for my failings today. I know that because of my failings I was not able t be as effective as I could have been for you. Please forgive me and help me to live thy will better tomorrow. Father, I ask that you now show me how to correct the errors I have just outlined. Guide me and direct me. Please remove my arrogance and my fear. Show me how to make my relation- ships right, and grant me the humility and strength to do thy will. Amen." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4588. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Fr Dan Dargan From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/29/2007 5:35:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Fiona, Thank you for sending us the report on Father Dargan and his passing. I didn't know about him, but it's obvious that he was a good friend of AA and a friend to all. I went over to Akron with some friends last week to visit the AA history sites there. The chapel at St. Thomas Hospital is also a beautiful memorial for Sister Ignatia, although the treatment center she founded is no longer there. The hospital is now owned by a corp- oration rather than the Sisters, so it is no longer a Catholic hospital. However, we should praise the current owners for dedi- cating the beautiful chapel to Sister Ignatia. Her treatment center at St. Vincent Hospital in Cleveland is still operating, and the street in front of the hospital has been named in her honor. All the best to you, Fiona. Mel Barger IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4589. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Fr Dan Dargan From: DudleyDobinson@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/29/2007 6:23:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Fiona, Thanks for posting this information. I retired and moved to Ireland some five years ago (my wife is a Birr woman). There are some old timers around this area from Roscrae to Tullamore who might be interested in Father Dargan's passing. We obviously are still in the Pioneers good books as I was asked to talk on behalf of AA at the Rath church by a local Pioneer. My very first effort at public speaking. He was surprised when I returned the envelope with fifty euros which was for "expenses". If you're in this area please give me a ring as I would very much like to come face to face with another member of AAHL. I became interested in our history through the backdoor of collecting AA and Oxford movement related books. I don't know how many copies of the first printings of the BB are in Ireland but I have been considering leaving my copy to Dublin archives. We shall see! I'm in the phone book. In fellowship - Dudley Dobinson IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4591. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill and working the steps as shown in the 12 & 12 From: David Johnson . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/29/2007 3:08:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I'd be interested in the line of demarcation you draw between Dr. Bob and Bill when it comes to "working the steps with a sponsor as written in the 12 & 12." As the 12 & 12 was written considerably later ... is this the procedure you're referring to when talking about Dr. Bob's step work? Or is the definition of "step work" different when referring to Bob and Bill? Or are you just asking did Bill himself again work the steps in the manner he described in the 12 & 12? Also do "we" really "know how Dr Bob did the steps?" You state: "It was at first through the principles of the Oxford Group." Was this before or after he got sober? Was it between the years of 1935-1939? Or did it happen later, ... after Clarence S. ... broke from the Oxford Group in order to present the first independent, non-affiliated AA program of recovery within a group setting, that included the 12 steps? This is what Dr. Bob said about that early time period: "Dr. Bob, noting that there were no Twelve Steps at the time and that 'our stories didn't amount to anything to speak of,' later said they were convinced that the answer to their problems was in the Good Book" (Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers, p. 96). "As Dr. Bob recalled: "I didn't write the Twelve Steps. I had nothing to do with the writing of them . . . . We already had the basic ideas, though not in terse and tangible form. We got them. . . as a result of our study of the Good Book." (Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers, p. 97). The reason I ask has to do with very real differences between the Oxford Group's approach to alcoholics and spiritual growth and AA's approach. In other words, it is no accident AA split from any association or affiliation with the Oxford Group, while acknowledging the tremendous influence the Oxford Group had upon the formulation of the steps. The Oxford Group's "Four Absolutes" of absolute honesty, absolute purity, absolute unselfishness and absolute love" or their 28 principles which specifically required a Christian God most certainly were not and are not the same as the 12 steps of Alcoholics Anonymous. --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Shakey1aa@... wrote: > > Did Bill ever work the steps with a sponsor > as written in the 12 & 12 and who would have > been his sponsor? .... > > We know how Dr Bob did the steps. It was at > first through the principles of the Oxford > Group. He later gave comments and suggestions > to Ed Webster when Ed was writing the early > editions of The Little Red Book, and sent > copies of it to AA members, and insisted > that the New York office sell it, until Dr. > Bob died in 1950, so that book explains the > good doctor's views on working AA's twelve > steps .... > > Shakey Mike Gwirtz IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4592. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Birthday plan & its history From: James Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/26/2007 11:34:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From James Blair (with comments by MaryGerbermom) >I am interested in the history of the "birthday > plan," the tradition of members donating a set > amount annually to GSO, or to regional central > offices. At a State meeting on February 28, 1954, a member who was intrested in finances suggested to Ab R., the Delegate from Oklahoma, that a voluntary birthday contribution plan be started and the participants send in a dollar a year up to $10.00 USD. The purpose of this plan was to fund the General Service Conference, which in the early years was not funded by group contributions. The Birthday Plan came to life in July and that year the plan sent $3,167 USD to General Service Headquarters and in 1955 sent $3,842 USD compared to $1692 USD the year before the plan started. I have a 12 page pamphlet published in Kansas for the State Meeting in Great Bend in October 1955 to sell the plan to the Kansas State Committee. Jim - - - - From: "mary" (MaryGerbermom1 at aol.com) The 1955 General service Conference approved the Birthday Plan, under which some members of the fellowship send a dollar a year for each year of sobriety they have in AA. Others use a figure of $3.65, a penny a day, for each year. Some give more, but the amount cannot exceed $2000.00. You can find this at http://www.utahaa.org/ Mary IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4593. . . . . . . . . . . . Significant October Dates in A.A. History From: chesbayman56 . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/30/2007 7:20:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Oct 1936 - Bill C. a Canadian alcoholic staying at Bill's house, committed suicide using a gas stove. Oct 1939 - 1st central committee formed in Cleveland; 1st example A.A. rotation. Oct 1942 - 1st issue of Cleveland Central Bulletin is published. Oct 1944 - First non American branch started in Sydney, Australia by Father T V Dunlea & Rex. Oct 1951 - Lasker Award given to AA by American Public Health Assoc. Oct 1951 - Sister Ignatia wrote "Care of Alcoholics - St.Thomas Hospital & A.A. Started Movement Which Swept Country" article in "Hospital Progress" the journal of Catholic Hospital Association. Oct 1954 - The "Alcoholic Foundation" renamed the "General Service Board of A.A." Oct 1958 - Playhouse 90 TV airs "The Days of Wine and Roses". Oct 1, 1941 - Local news reports 1st AA Group in New Haven, CT. Oct 1, 1957 - Book "A.A. Comes of Age" published. Oct 2, 1944 - Marty M. founded National Committee Education Alcoholism, later became National Council on Alcoholism. Oct 3, 1945 - AA Grapevine adopted as national publication of AA. Oct 5-7, 1972 - 2nd World Service meeting held in New York. Oct 5, 1988 - Lois Burnam Wilson died. Oct 6, 1941 - 900 dine at Cleveland dinner for Bill D, AA #3. Oct 8, 1988 - Memorial Service for Lois W at Stepping Stones, NY. Oct. 9-11, 1969 - 1st World Service meeting held in New York with delegates from 14 countries. Oct 10, 1943 - 6 of 1st 9 AA's attend clubhouse anniv. in Toledo. Oct 10, 1970 - Lois reads "Bills Last Message" at annual dinner in NY. Oct 10, 1988 - Lois is buried next to Bill in East Dorsett, Vermont. Oct 13, 1947 - "The Melbourne Group" held its first meeting in Australia. Oct 14, 1939 - Journal of American Medical Association gives Big Book unfavorable review. Oct 15, 1904 - Marty M, early AA woman, is born in Chicago. Oct 17, 1935 - Ebby T, Bills sponsor, moves in with Bill and Lois. Oct 20, 1928 - Bill wrote promise to Lois in family Bible to quit drinking. By Thanksgiving added second promise. Oct 21, 1939 - Cleveland Plain Dealer begins series of articles on AA of by Elrick Davis. Oct 22, 1963 - E M Jellinek, alcoholism educator and AA friend dies. Oct 24, 1942 - L.A. Times reports AA groups in 14 California cities. Oct 24, 1943 - Wilson's start 1st major A.A. tour, returned Jan 19, 1944. Oct 24, 1973 - Trustee's Archives Committee of AA has its 1st meeting. Oct 28, 1994 - National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence celebrates 50 years. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4594. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: See Bill W talk about the lst tradition From: Doug Hart . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/28/2007 3:27:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I don't want to stir up the old copyright debate, but ... If anything, a snippet like this would generate more sales from the GSO than it's ever seen. I doubt that groups or people have been overwhelming the GSO with orders for this film. And this is only a sampler. A wonderful historical view of Bill. He's obviously getting frail. He died of emphysema and pneumonia two years later. On the film, you can see the effects of his long time smoking habit. If anything, this film reminds me that Bill, although tremen- dously gifted, was only a mortal like us all. As always, I enjoy this group and still think of my friend Nancy O. Doug Hart, Tampa IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4595. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: See Bill W talk, and Lois too From: Larry Van Atta . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/29/2007 1:38:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The second video is "Bill's Own Story", a 60 minute talk by Bill inside and outside Stepping Stones with Lois at his side. She does talk for a few minutes about her reaction to Bill's sobriety, her resentments, and necessity for her to live by the 12 steps. Larry IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4596. . . . . . . . . . . . conf. approved literature From: Tom White . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/30/2007 2:05:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dear All: I follow with considerable interest the continued discussion of non-conf.-approved lit. About 1965 I personally heard Bill W. recommend Bucke's "Cosmic Consciousness" and Raynor Johnson's "The Imprisoned Splendor" to some fairly new AAs who asked him for the titles of some good books to read at a luncheon we all were at. I value both of those books and esp. James's "Varieties." With Mel B., I am not neutral as I, too, have committed the indiscretion of having written about AA sans conference approval. What I would like, were I living in a universe operated by me, is for a GSO Conference to simply state that Conference approval indicates what the old nihil obstat used to mean on Catholic books (nothing objectionable herein). And then clearly and definitely declare GSO, and AA generally, out of the old game of making up an "index librorum prohibitorum," and thus trying to suggest, control, approve, condemn, damn, delimit any other books in the wide world generally, and leave it, as Arthur S. suggests, entirely to the autonomous group to determine what it will read or sell. There is an unfortunate smell of sulphur in all this talk of approval and disapproval by New Yawk and the GSO Conference. I mean, the thought of an AA entity of any sort engaging in anything remotely like censorship or any kind of rulership. Tom W. Odessa, TX IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4597. . . . . . . . . . . . The fellowship, not the Big Book, as AA''s origin From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/29/2007 7:16:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII James Bliss said in Message 4579 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/4579 >And, seek >guidance from the Big Book first. It is where >it all began, continues to work, and will >continue to work as long as it is not changed. This is quite simply not true. A.A. got along without the Big Book from its "founding" in June 1934 until April 1939, almost five years, hence the statement "It is where it all began" is not true. The Big Book came from the Fellowship, not the other way around. Tommy H in Baton Rouge IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4598. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Conference approved literature - again From: Tom McQuarrie . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/29/2007 6:28:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Tom McQuarrie (with additional comments from Byron Bateman) Seems that we are reliving history - there is a battle in congress now to pass the mental health parity bill. That bill will effectively strip Pennsylvanians of a law Act 106 of 1989 that says if a Doctor or licensed psychologist writes a prescription for AOD treatment the insurance companies can not deny coverage. There are other requirements but that is the basis of it. I tried to get a client into detox yesterday this man is 44 and has been drinking since he was 16 over the last four years 350 to 750 mls of Vodka per day. He hid his drinking while in outpatient and the insurance company is saying he does not qualify for detox. If we here in Pennsylvania loose 106 that will happen everyday. I am an addictions counselor and happen to be in recovery D.O.S. 1/14/2002. We require that our clients go to at least 3 AA meetings a week and find a sponsor. We are all in this together! By they way I was in treatment for 60 days, outpatient for another 60. Worked for me too. Tom Mac - - - - From: "Byron Bateman" (byronbateman at hotmail.com) AAHL group I believe that a correction is in order for the author of "Home Brewmeister." The author was Clarence Snyder. (Not Clarence Thomas, Supreme Court Justice.) As to the prevalence of treatment facilities; Salt Lake City, Utah, and the several cities surrounding SLC, had at least fifteen facilities within a reasonably short distance during the early 1980's, and there are more than ten currently. If a low population State such as Utah has many, many treatment facilities within one geographically small area ... I have no trouble assuming that there were thousands of facilities across the entire country during the treatment center boom, but I really don't care as to the exact number, as they are not A.A. I too, have been spooking around AA a long time, and my observations are very similar to the observation offered by Glenn C. Of course, I can only speak from my experience in my parti- cular area of the country, and I don't have details as to the number of bona fide treatment centers nationwide, or what certainly must be the wide variations that stem from widely spread areas of our country ... Observe the variations in our accents, vocabulary, customs, etc. It would be a very narrow viewpoint on my part to assume everything across the country would/should be exactly the same. Meetings are not! Many of the recent treatment center patients come to our A.A. meetings with a very distorted concept of what A.A. is, and what A.A. does. They're not well prepared for what we offer, but they're dry, and some are willing. The majority of longer-term sobriety members in this area, didn't come into A.A. through treatment centers. There is huge number of court-ordered folks that don't go through treatment with "first offense" sentencing. They will often go to a counselor, also, but not always. Slogans, terms, chants, different concepts, etc., etc., that are used by recently discharged treatment center patients is what many AA's consider "psycho-babble" in my region. Honesty, OPEN MINDEDNESS, and willingness! Byron IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4599. . . . . . . . . . . . Use of the Akron Pamphlet in Finland From: Teemu . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/30/2007 12:04:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello, In Finland every newcomer gets the so-called Akron pamphlet (A Guide to the Twelve Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous). Normally we call it "a summer guide". It is a part of the newcomer's packet by the Finnish national GSO. Teemu Jyvaskyla, Finland IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4600. . . . . . . . . . . . AA Skits From: The Wilsons . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/30/2007 8:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Greetings, My District has started using skits as a tool to deliver the A. A. message. We currently have five different skits that are available for use. The include: "The Twelve Tradions," "Traditions," "Corrections," "Twelve Step Call" and "Bridge The Gap." I would like to learn and obtain any additional scripts for skits that might be available for use, if possible. Thanks Bob Wilson Area 72, District 10 MY E-MAIL ADDRESS IS: (pnwnatives at gmail.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4601. . . . . . . . . . . . The God Angle From: diazeztone . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/30/2007 9:12:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I am making a list of all the small books about AA. Is there a title called "The God Angle"? Is "The God Angle" small like Twenty-Four Hours a Day, The Little Red Book, Stools and Bottles, and The Opener? Who wrote "The God Angle" and who was it published by? LD Pierce aabibliography.com IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4602. . . . . . . . . . . . Another AA piece on You Tube? From: DudleyDobinson@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/1/2007 3:39:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDENg-bLc4Q The above video purports to have come from AA. Anybody know if this is true? In fellowship - Dudley Dobinson - A recovered alcoholic IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4603. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Minneapolis AA 1945 success rate From: Gess . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/1/2007 5:07:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII My uncle was probably in that group. His pattern was to get about 12 years, have a horrendous slip, another 12 years etc. He died in about '98 sober 12-14 years. Makes me wonder what statistics like this mean exactly in terms of AA attendance. Gess dos 1/6/82 - - - - Glenn Chesnut wrote: > The A.A. Grapevine, August 1946, Page 1 > > Minneapolis Record > Indicates that 75% > Are Successful in A.A. > > The Minneapolis Group, in March, 1943, > inaugurated a system for keeping a record > of the sobriety of members from three > months on up. As a result, the following > exact percentages have been arrived at: > > For the Year 1945 > > 5-yr. members ... 100% successful ... 0% slipped > 4-yr. members ... 100% successful ... 0% slipped > 3-yr. members ... 100% successful ... 0% slipped > 2-yr. members ... 89% successful ... 11% slipped > 18-mo. members ... 90% successful ... 10% slipped > 1-yr. members ... 80% successful ... 20% slipped > 9-mo. members ... 82% successful ... 18% slipped > 6-mo. members ... 70% successful ... 30% slipped > 3-mo. members ... 48% successful ... 52% slipped > > (Of those who slipped in 1945, only 16-1/2% > have worked back to any degree of sobriety.) > > Over-all Percentages > > 1943 78% successful 22% slipped > 1944 83% successful 17% slipped > 1945 77% successful 23% slipped > > ______________________________ > > > People in early A.A. often kept their stat- > istics in forms totally different from what > is customarily used today. We have here what > appear to be some fairly careful statistics > kept in Minneapolis, for example, from 1943 > to 1945, given in this article in the Grape- > vine. But as we shall see, even though we > can make a few useful observations, these > figures are in fact very difficult to trans- > late into a modern format. > > The headline says they were achieving a 75% > success rate, which is in fact incorrect. > They liked the figures "50%" and "75%" so > much that they tended to adjust numbers in > that direction whenever possible. This was > not necessarily to make themselves look good. > The actual figures given in the article > below the headline show a 77% to 83% overall > success rate, which in fact is actually > higher. > > We way we usually give success rate figures > in modern studies of AA, is to take a large > group of people who have been encouraged to > attend a few AA meetings (many of them perhaps > court ordered, and others trucked in rather > unwillingly from treatment centers run by > psychiatrists who are hostile to AA and let > their patients know how silly they think AA > is). Now if 77% to 83% of these people were > to decide that they actually WANTED to quit > drinking, and threw themselves wholeheartedly > into AA, and were found to still be clean and > sober three years later, and even five years > later, this would be quite an extraordinary > accomplishment indeed. > > And there are people today who would want us > to believe that there was some version of > early AA which could have taken one hundred > court appointed people who had been convicted > of drunk driving, and could have turned > seventy-five or more of them into sober and > dedicated AA members. In spite of the fact > that no one in the modern period has ever > been able to accomplish anything like that > using what they argue are the old methods. > > But let's look a little harder at the Minnea- > polis statistics. Large numbers of the people > who were in their early months were going back > out and getting drunk again, and only a very > small percentage indeed of these people ever > came back and tried to get sober again. And > they were excluding from the count all those > who had not completed their first 90 days > successfully (where the number who quit and > got drunk again was presumably very high > indeed, probably close to an 80% failure > rate, for the part of the curve which they > did reveal was clearly an exponential curve). > But their people with 3 years, 4 years, and > 5 years sobriety were all staying sober. > This counterbalanced all the newcomers who > were failing to make it. So in any given year, > they could truthfully say that 77% to 83% of > THEIR TOTAL MEMBERSHIP was staying sober. > > That did not at all mean that 77% to 83% of > the newcomers who walked into their meetings > for the first time were going to end up > permanently sober. > > So for example, of those who had completed > their first 90 days, but had not yet completed > a full six months, the Minneapolis chart tells > us that 52% of these people went out and got > drunk again. And between six months and nine > months, there was still a hefty 30% who went > back out and got drunk. This was an incredibly > high failure rate. > > These figures from 1943 to 1945 are not better > than modern AA. Compared to the figures in the > Triennial Reports, this was worse than modern > AA. We do a whole lot better than that > nowadays, at least with the people who have > been in the program between three months and > nine months, where the problems in Minneapolis > in the old days seem to have been greatest. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4604. . . . . . . . . . . . Questions about last three steps From: Gess . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/1/2007 5:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I learned from my sponsor that the last 3 steps were separate from the first 9 and were the "living" steps... something like that. I got sober in Minnesota in 82. I've never seen any reference to this idea in AA literature so I am guessing this concept comes out of treatment, not AA, especially Hazelden treatment. Does anyone know? Also taught that the 10th step is different because it can be more about not being or doing what God reveals to be my purpose rather than looking for defects which separate me from God. In particular, was I being an example of AA? was I living the principles in all my life? and even more particularly was I participating in 12 step calls and other useful service in AA? It wasn't focused on what was wrong so much as what wasn't right so was more optimistic. I've also never seen this in the literature and wonder if anything like it is there. thanks John G IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4605. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Written Tenth Step From: dino . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/1/2007 11:33:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This comes up in a lot of discussions today. There seems to be no indication that anyone prior to 25 yrs ago or so ever did a written 10th step. The example given in the Big Book on pg.84 is the "spot check" inventory. Cliff in an earlier reply rightly points out it really leaves no time to write anything down -- such words as at once, immediately, quickly would prevent any lengthy analysis .... Step 10 is a carry over of the Oxford Group's 5 Cs (conviction, conversion, confession, confidence and continuance). Step 10 is a continuance step. There is some good explanation of this in Richmond Walkers' TWENTY FOUR HOURS A DAY book. There's also a good example of the applica- tion of Step 10 given in the Akron group's THE AKRON SECOND READER. What's interesting is that so little discussion is ever given to what's on pg.85 -- the preventative side of step 10. I find if I spend more time on what's on pg. 85 I need to do what's on pg. 84 less. I know the late Joe Hawk advocated written 10th step inventories. They could be useful. By all means if someone does them, and they benefit them, keep it up. I personally asked Mel B. about this some time ago and he said no one in his time ever practiced a written tenth. - - - - From the moderator: This matches with my own research. There may have been that one Grapevine article about it, but I have never talked to any oldtimer who mentioned people doing written tenth steps in the 1930s, 40s, 50s, or 60s. Mel B. would be one of the people who would really know, of course. Having lots of people writing it out is pretty much a new idea, as far as I can tell. It does not seem to have been a common practice within real oldtime AA. Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4606. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: AA Skits From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/2/2007 7:56:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Just go to www.recoveryskits.com Also, could you please email me the five skits you mention below & I'll pass them along to my Area 44 Intergroup (Northern NJ) for their consideration & possible use. Thanks. Just Love, Barefoot Bill My e-mail address is: (barefootbill at optonline.net) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4607. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA Skits From: momaria33772 . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/2/2007 9:41:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A playwright gentleman from California gave us all his website a couple of years ago. There are many posted - These plays are open for free use. They do cover several different recovery programs,so you must select one that fits or adapt. Here is the web page: http://www.recoveryskits.com We here in Pinellas County Florida have used them several times, at home groups and roundups. I agree they are another fun way to educate while enjoying. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4608. . . . . . . . . . . . Were there Silver Books? From: Alex H . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/2/2007 11:06:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII > I am making a list of all the small books > about AA. I had a question about small books. Everyone should be familiar with the collection of small books called "The Golden Books". They have as the author's name, Father John Doe (Rev. Ralph Pfau), originally published by The SMT Guild, Inc., PO Box 313, Indianapolis. Is it my fading memory or does anyone else remember "The Silver Books"? I remember seeing the name in some book catalog (Hazelden?) but perhaps time is playing havoc with me. I'd appreciate any info on that set of books... like the author maybe? I hope someone can help. Alex H. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4609. . . . . . . . . . . . Thousands of men and women on BB page 17? From: smithdewan . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/2/2007 3:37:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Several of us in my home group wonder why the AAs number one hundred in the forward while thousands are mentioned on page 17. [Beginning of Chapter 2: "We, of Alcoholics Anonymous, know thousands of men and women who were once just as hopeless as Bill. Nearly all have recovered. They have solved the drink problem."] I suspect the answer is already in the archive but could not find it. Regards Jack S. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4610. . . . . . . . . . . . YouTube "AA" links From: Debi Ubernosky . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/2/2007 9:41:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII howdy from Texas, y'all! after the first post about Bill Wilson's talks on YouTube, i did a more extensive search and came up with this list of Bill Wilson videos on YouTube: Tradition 1: http://www.youtube.com/v/FTwYbRX5N78 Tradition 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzokNc6qFUg Tradition 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQ1Hj913nVA Talking about meeting Dr. Bob: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwIrecwfTy4 Talks about the History: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8QHnt1-HJs Bill Wilson tells his story: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2OFMrzO9Ck Part two of his story: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIVnPWrhGDw Part three of his story: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uf6Mq2CaOHI Part four of his story: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kAnGrV1-cw Part five of his story: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euMqEGRZtf0 Part six of his story: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJI4OmYdAyw Part seven of his story: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgXcJnnip84 Part eight of his story (lois talks too): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeEfUf4seko enjoy! debi u. sober by God's grace and because AA works! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4611. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Another AA piece on You Tube? From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/2/2007 10:33:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII What country is this coming from? - - - - See Message 4602 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDENg-bLc4Q The above video purports to have come from AA. Anybody know if this is true? - - - - I can't make out recovery unity and service in the old (no longer used )circle and triangle at the end but the words don't appear to be in English: eikokiet?? dienst??. The phone number at the end shows 0848 848 846. Can anybody figure out the country form the policeman's uniform? Going to Niagara falls Sept 06, Shakey Mike Gwirtz IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4612. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Another AA piece on You Tube? From: Bruce A. Johanson . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/2/2007 1:42:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Comments from Bruce J. and Adam D. I am sure the AAWS lawyers in New York will track down those people who abused our copyrights at the end of that flick! Actually I like "Ten Reasons to Run From AA" a lot better. That one had me laughing a whole bunch .... Thanks for that link! - - - - From: Adam Dreyfus (adaminconn at yahoo.com) I understand people's concern about copyright but I believe it misses the point. I was taught that AA was freely given to me and in return I should give it away. If one person is helped by the Youtube video then it's worth it. adam IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4613. . . . . . . . . . . . Big Book pg 87 morning meditation From: flat412acrehouse . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/2/2007 1:29:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The group had quite a discussion around written step 10 inventory so Thank You for forwarding the information. With regards to the above Pg 87 of The Big Book (doing a morning meditation) we have two questions about the first members, 1935 to 1939. First of all do you know what form their meditation took and secondly where it states, "If not members of religious bodies, we sometimes select and memorize a few set prayers which emphasize the principles we have been discussing." Do you know what these prayers may have been and where they would have orginated from? Kindest Thanks and Many Blessings leah - - - - From Glenn C. (glennccc at sbcglobal.net) The most often used book for prayer and meditation in AA from 1935 to 1948 was "The Upper Room." Members who were close to the Oxford Group may have been using OG works like "God Calling by Two Listeners" (although this was more a meditational book than the kind of prayer book that has set prayers to repeat). After Sister Ignatia's program at St. Thomas Hospital in Akron began being used regularly by AA people, she would give newcomers (before they were discharged) a copy of either Thomas a Kempis's "The Imitation of Christ" or a little book of excerpts from the writings of St. Ignatius Loyola, the founder of the Jesuits, and author of the "Spiritual Exercises." (See Mary Darrah's book on Sister Ignatia.) Does any member of this group feel inspired to come up with a comprehensive list of all the meditational and prayer books which we know the early AA people used? I think there are a lot of people who would find this useful. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4614. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Thousands of men and women on BB page 17? From: Bob S. . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/2/2007 5:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Jack, The first printing of the first edition states on the first page of Chapter Two: "We of Alcoholics Anonymous, know one hundred men who were once just as hopeless as Bill." Apparently the later printings were updated. My 16th printing of the first edition mentions ". . . 1,000 men and women, etc," Bob S. - - - - From: smithdewan Subject: Thousands of men and women on BB page 17? Several of us in my home group wonder why the AAs number one hundred in the forward while thousands are mentioned on page 17. [Beginning of Chapter 2: "We, of Alcoholics Anonymous, know thousands of men and women who were once just as hopeless as Bill. Nearly all have recovered. They have solved the drink problem."] I suspect the answer is already in the archive but could not find it. Regards Jack S. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4615. . . . . . . . . . . . A new biography of Herbert Spencer From: jblair101 . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/2/2007 5:22:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In message #4207 Glenn provided a brief summary of research regarding the "contempt prior to investigation" quotation in the Big Book attributed to Herbert Spencer that now appears to be linked to earlier sources for this quota- tion (Paley and Poole). For those who have a remaining interest in Herbert Spencer, a biography was recently published by Professor Mark Francis, Professor of Political Science at the University of Canterbury, Christchurch, New Zealand. The publisher's link is http://www.acumenpublishing.co.uk/display.asp?isb=9781844650866&TAG=&CID= Since the biography sells for $50.56 on Amazon (but discounted from the publisher), you may want to check your public library interlibrary loan system for a copy, which mine had. I emailed the author about the possibility of such a quotation based on his research of Spencer's writings, but have not yet had a response. He does include references to Spencer and Paley but not in this quotation context. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4616. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Another AA piece on You Tube? From: Bent Christensen . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/2/2007 5:37:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi As far as I can tell it is from a part of Switzerland called Innerschweiz AA - Anonyme Alkoholiker Region Innerschweiz 0848 848 846 AA in Switzerland http://www.anonyme-alkoholiker.ch/ phone number 0848 848 845 By the way I do think most countries in Europe still uses the Circle and Triangle. Denmark does for sure. Blessings Bent - - - - Shakey1aa@aol.com skrev: What country is this coming from? - - - - See Message 4602 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDENg-bLc4Q The above video purports to have come from AA. Anybody know if this is true? --------------------------------------------- Skal du købe ny bil? Sammenlign priser på brugte biler med Kelkoo og find et godt tilbud! IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4617. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Thousands of men and women on BB page 17? From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/2/2007 6:29:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII >From: smithdewan >Subject: Thousands of men and women on BB page 17? > >Several of us in my home group wonder why the >AAs number one hundred in the foreword while >thousands are mentioned on page 17. > >Regards Jack S. - - - - There have been a large number of changes in the Big Book, even in the wording of the Steps. Jim Blair summarizes those made in the first sixteen printings of the First Edition in A.A.H.L. message number 2258. There is a number in the title. The First Printing had "Alcoholics Anonymous: The Story of How More Than One Hundred Men Have Recovered from Alcoholism." This was changed over subsequent printings: Second: "Two Thousand Men and Women" Third: "Six Thousand . . ." Fourth: "Eight . . ." Fifth: "Ten . . ." Ninth: "Thousands . . ." You will also notice the footnote on p. 25 of the First Editions, p. 16 of subsequent editions, has an update first on the number of locations of A.A., then the number of groups. I believe the direct answer is they DID make changes in the basic text, but they did NOT change the forewords. Tommy in Baton Rouge - - - - Message 2258 from Jim Blair (jblair at videotron.ca) http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/2258 Here are the changes made to the first 16 printings. The Big Book - Alcoholics Anonymous - Changes to the First Edition 1st Edition - 1st Printing - Title states "ONE HUNDRED MEN." - 29 personal stories. - Price 3.50$. - Cover is red, only printing in red. - Story 'Ace Full - Seven - Eleven' deleted. - Jacket spine and front flap do not have a print number. - Arabic numbers start at 'Doctor's Opinion'. - 400 arabic numbered pages (8 roman). - Stories: 10 East Coast, 18 Midwest, 1 West Coast. - P234-L27, typo. L26 duplicated as L27. - Published by Works Publishing Company. 1st Edition - 2nd Printing - Title states "TWO THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN." - 28 personal stories - Cover changed to navy blue, some light blue. - Gold lettering deleted from cover, remained on spine. - Added Appendix II - Spiritual Experience, p399. - Jacket spine and front flap has print number. - Stayed at 400 arabic pages (8 roman) - Added footnote "see Appendix II", p35, 38, 72. - P25-L23, 80 of us to 500 of us. - P25-L26, 40-80 persons to 50-200 persons. - P63-L13, 100 people to Hundreds of People - P72-L03, Spiritual Experience to Awakening. - P72-L04, Result of These Steps to Those. - P175-L23, Many Hundreds to 500. - P234-L27, Typo corrected, 126 not repeated. - P391-L01, Added "Now We Are Two Thousand." - P397-L01, Moved "Foundation" here from p399. 1st Edition - 3rd Printing - Title changed - "SIX THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN." - Personal stories remain the same thru 1:16. - Cover changed to light blue. - Reduced in thickness 1/8 and height 1/16. - P25-L23, 500 of us to 1000 of us. - P27-L01, 100 Men to Hundreds of Men. - P26-L13, Sober 3years to sober 5 years. - P264-L13, (no time) to sober 5 years. - P281-L09, 9 months to past 4 tears. - P391-L01, Now we are 2,000 to 6,000. - P392-L19, 3,000 letters to 12,000 letters. - P393-L06, Increased 20 fold to 60 fold. - P393-L12, 5,000 by 01/42 to 8,000 by 01/43. - P393-L24, 9 Groups in Cleveland to 25. - P393-L24, 500 members in Cleveland to I,000. - P393-L26, 1,000 Non-A.A. people to 2,000. - P398-L03, Touching to Touching Nationally. 1st Edition - 4th Printing - Title states "EIGHT THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN." - Cover changed to green, last 1,500 navy blue. - Piv-L03, Post Box 657 to Box 658. - P25-L28, Added foot note "Number of Localities for A.A." - P27-L01, 100s of Men to 1000s of Men and Women. - P59-L25, Added foot note "Please See Appendix II." - P168-L03, 6 years ago to 8 years ago. - P152-L02, have been there to has been there. - P152-L22, The bank were doing to was doing. - P391-L24, Religious content to spiritual. - P393-L12, 8,000 by 01/43 to 10,000 by 01/44. - P398-L09, Works Publishing Company to Inc. - P398-L10, organized to originally organized. - P398-L10, members to older members - P398-L11, Added 49 gave up stock. - P398-L16, this book, to this book. - P398-L16, send money to please send money. 1st Edition - 5th Printing - Title states "Ten Thousand Men and Women." - Cover changed back to light blue, some navy. - Last Big Book in size. - Piv-L04, New York City to New York City (7). - P25-L28, Foot note "A.A. now in 270 localities." - P393-L06, Increased 60 fold to 100 fold. - P393-L12, 10,000 by 01/44 to 12,000 by 01/45. - P394-L14, Last 2 years to last 5 years. 1st Edition - 6th Printing - Title states "TEN THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN." - Cover changed back to Navy blue. (same as today). - Reduced in thickness by 3/8 inch. - Piv-L04, New York City (7) to (17). - P397-L08, 4 non-A.A. Trustees to 8 non-A.A. - P397-L10, 4 non-A.A. Trustees to 8 non-A.A. - P398-L21, New York City(7) to (17). 1st Edition - 7th Printing - Title states "FOURTEEN THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN." - Reduced in thickness 3/16 and width 3/8 inches. - Pii-L01, Added "WARTIME PRINTING" notice. - Piv-L02, Works Publishing Company to Inc. - P1-L13, six years ago to 1934. - P07-L29, 2 years ago deleted. - P09-L04, More than 3 years ago to many years. - P25-L28, Foot note "A.A. now in 385 Localities." - P175-L22, "Cleveland" footnote deleted. - P264-L18, 5 years since to in 1937 - P273-L22, one year ago to long ago. - P281-L09, Past nine months to few years. - P331-L14, for 13 months to many years. - P392-L19, 12,000 letters to innumerable. - P393-L12, 12,000 by 1/45 to thousands a year. - P397-L07, Trustees to 4 A.A. Trustees. 1st Edition - 8th Printing - Title states "FOURTEEN THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN." - Reduced thickness ¼, width 1/16, height 1 inch. - P11-L01, Has "WARTIME PRINTING" notice. 1st Edition - 9th Printing - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN." - Increased thickness 1/8, width 1/8, height 3/8 inches. - P323-L20, Two years to several years. 1st Edition - 10th Printing - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN." - P154-L30, Abberations to Aberrations. 1st Edition - 11th Printing - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN." - Increased thickness 1/16, decreased height 1/8 inches. - P28-L22, Ex-Alcoholic to Ex-Problem Drinker. - P30-L06, Ex-Alcoholic to Ex-Problem Drinker. - P178-L20, Him to HIM. - P271-L16, Ex-Alcoholic to Ex-Problem Drinker. - P272-L06, Ex-Alcoholic to understanding - P330-L30, Ex-Alcoholic to Non-Drinker. 1st Edition - 12th Printing - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN." - Decreased height by 1/16. 1st Edition - 13th Printing - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN." - Reduced in width 1/16, height 1/8 . 1st Edition - 14th Printing - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN." - Reduced in thickness 1/16. 1st Edition - 15th Printing - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN." - Increased in height by 1/16. - Published by A.A. PUBLISHING, INC. 1st Edition - 16th Printing - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN." - Increased width 1/16, decreased height 1/16. Last printing of the First Edition. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4618. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The God Angle From: JOHN e REID . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/2/2007 8:16:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The God Angle was written as Robbie R's Last Dedication to the God of His Understanding. Published by "the God Angle Committee" in 1978. Copyright 1978, Mrs. T. W. Robinson, details of her address (at that time) are in the book but I am not prepared to include such inform- ation here. Yes it is a daily read January 1 to December 31. I was given a copy by Wayne P of Kansas at Colorado Springs in 1979. Wayne P was a great friend of Robbie R and Wesley Parrish and many other local, national & international pioneers, etc. Kind Regards, John R Brisbane Australia. (jre33756 at bigpond.net.au) - - - - Original Message from: diazeztone Subject: The God Angle I am making a list of all the small books about AA. Is there a title called "The God Angle"? Is "The God Angle" small like Twenty-Four Hours a Day, The Little Red Book, Stools and Bottles, and The Opener? Who wrote "The God Angle" and who was it published by? LD Pierce aabibliography.com IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4619. . . . . . . . . . . . Earl T. and the 12 Traditions From: dino . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/3/2007 5:07:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Earl T. (He Sold Himself Short) is believed to have helped Bill W. "abbreviate" the 12 Traditions into the "short form." What qualified him to be able to do something like that -- was he an editor? schoolteacher? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4620. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Another AA piece on You Tube? From: Doug Hart . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/3/2007 10:56:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The phone number is the Geneve, Switzerland GSO (French speaking). No accounting for their sense of humor! Doug - - - - See Message 4602, which refers us to this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDENg-bLc4Q IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4621. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Questions about last three steps From: John Lee . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/2/2007 11:41:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This is an AA History site, not a general AA discussion group, so I'm not sure how your inquiry about living the Steps made it onto this Board. Notwithstanding the guidelines of the Site, we get a lot of threads on interpret- ing the Steps, and even interpreting the interpretations of the Steps. The idea about "living" the last three Steps comes directly from Conference literature, specifically page 88 of Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions which states: "As we work the first nine Steps, we prepare ourselves for the adventure of a new life. But when we approach Step Ten we commence to put our AA way of living to practical use..." I would note that the first sentence is the only reference I've found in the basic litera- ture to "working the Steps." I've also never seen anything in the basic literature that talks about "working the program." The first paragraph of page 88 of 12&12 suggests that we work the first nine steps [once], and then begin to live them. Step Twelve, of course, specifically states that we "practice" the Steps in "all our affairs." John Lee where the Allegheny meets the Monongahela, to form the Ohio - - - - Gess wrote: I learned from my sponsor that the last 3 steps were separate from the first 9 and were the "living" steps ... something like that .... I've never seen any reference to this idea in AA literature .... Does anyone know? thanks John G IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4622. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Questions about last three steps From: John Botkin . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/3/2007 2:19:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From John Botkin (with comments by Dino) That idea was originated by Clarence Snyder and he used it often in his talks on the steps. - - - - From: "dino" (lauraoshea at verizon.net) Clarence S broke the 12 steps down into Admission, Submission, Restitution and Construction. Steps 10, 11 and 12 were to be the Construction part of the program. As we clean up the wreckage of the past Clarence said get rid of those first 7 steps, we don't need them anymore. Many times we miss the point of the 10th step which is to CONSTRUCTIVELY review our day. I.e., how can I carry the vision of God's will into all of my activities more effectively, or were there obstacles which prevented this? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4623. . . . . . . . . . . . Joe McQ. surgery From: John Wikelius . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/8/2007 8:39:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This is for those of you who have heard the Joe & Charlie Big Book Tapes. Say a prayer or two for our friend Joe. He has Parkinsons and recently had a shunt operation to drain excess fluids to his stomach from his cranial cavity/brain. Joe has over 40 years sober and for years has been active with the Kelly Foundation and Serenity House in Little Rock, Arkansas. Thanks, God bless, love to all. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4624. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Big Book pg 87 morning meditation From: george cleveland . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/6/2007 10:30:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Message #4613 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/4613 asked, what did the early AA people use for books on prayer and meditation during the period 1935 to 1939? - - - - Personally, I've found a lot of Oswald Chambers' thinking in the Big Book. Oswald Chambers, "My Utmost for His Highest" is still widely read and available almost everywhere. George Cleveland - - - - Message #3943 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/3943 talks about Chambers' book in some detail. Message #4613 mentions four other works that were used: The most often used book for prayer and meditation in AA from 1935 to 1948 was "The Upper Room." Members who were close to the Oxford Group may have been using OG works like "God Calling by Two Listeners" (although this was more a meditational book than the kind of prayer book that has set prayers to repeat). After Sister Ignatia's program at St. Thomas Hospital in Akron began being used regularly by AA people, she would give newcomers (before they were discharged) a copy of either Thomas a Kempis's "The Imitation of Christ" or a little book of excerpts from the writings of St. Ignatius Loyola, the founder of the Jesuits, and author of the "Spiritual Exercises." (See Mary Darrah's book on Sister Ignatia.) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4625. . . . . . . . . . . . New AA Movie to be released From: secondles . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/6/2007 12:43:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A new movie about Lois Wilson is in the making. It will be based on the 2005 book written by William Borchert, THE LOIS WILSON STORY,WHEN LOVE IS NOT ENOUGH. Mr. Borchert has been engaged to write the screenplay and the HALLMARK HALL OF FAME will air the TV movie. There is a large amount of information on the Internet right now about these plans and many, many endorsements of Mr. Borchert. You may recall that he wrote the first movie about AA called, MY NAME IS BILL W which came out in 1989. There are many sub-topics within this site ... promoting Mr. Borchert's book. I recommend that all of these sub-topics be looked at, i.e. "media", "Q&A", etc. The site can be reached by typing "Lois Wilson" at the address line; then, click the FIRST listing "THE LOIS WILSON STORY by WILLIAM G. BORCHERT"...(there are two, use the first one). As a devoted AAHistoryLover, I suggest that there is a potential difficulty with the message which may come with a movie BASED ON THE BOOK because there are several factual errors in the book. When the book first came out in 2006, I discovered many errors of fact presented in the book indicating poor research. These were obvious to me because I lived, as a child, in the same places incorrectly identified and discussed in the book. I personally knew Rogers Burnham, Lois' brother and others who were important to Bill and Lois. Also, ... several AA books which were published BEFORE Mr. Borchert's 2005 biolgraphy of Lois (including her own Autobiography LOIS REMEMBERS) tell factually different stories regarding significant historical events. In 2006 I sent a documentation of those errors to Stepping Stones President, Mr. Hoguet, who wrote the highly supportive FORWARD in the book, and he replied that the Publisher, Hazelden, would make appropriate corrections. I do not know if Mr. Borchert acknowledges these significant errors during the many current "book-signings and public TV and radio interviews" highlighted in this web site. I sincerely hope that the new movie being written will use correct history. My post is to alert those interested that a new AA historical movie is about to be released ... and to suggest a careful reading of all the material on the promo- tional web site. Les Cole, Colorado Springs elsietwo@msn.com - - - - Message #3544 from "LES COLE" (elsietwo at msn.com) Hello AA History Lover Readers.... Please note that the Bourchert book noted below, "The Lois Wilson Story, When Love Is Not Enough" contains several factual errors. I know this because as a boy (1932-33) I lived in places spoken of in that book (e.g. Manchester, Vermont in the house owned by Lois's father ... the Camp on Emerald Lake owned by Dr. Burnham ... Burr and Burton Seminary where my mother was a classmate of Bill Wilson... etc. etc.) I am a native Vermonter. I have informed the Publisher, and Stepping Stones Foundation, of these inaccuracies and have been informed that corrections will be made in the next printing. If you are reading the First Printing, or the web site advertising the book, be aware that there are many factual errors in the First printing and in the advertising. I was very surprised to see so much poor research by an acclaimed author (Borchert) who also produced the movie "My Name Is Bill W". If anyone on this web wishes a copy of my findings, I'd be glad to share them with you if you send me your E-Mail address. All my best, Les Cole, Colorado Springs, CO MY E-MAIL ADDRESS: elsietwo@msn.com (elsietwo at msn.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4626. . . . . . . . . . . . 4th edition story Window of Opportunity From: DBirch . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/6/2007 1:08:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Can anybody point me in the direction of where I might found out more info on the author of this story? "Window of Opportunity," Big Book 4th edit., on pages 421-431. The heading reads: "This young alcoholic stepped out a second-story window and into A.A." Thanks Love, Donna IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4627. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Earl T. and the 12 Traditions From: Corey Franks . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/6/2007 2:55:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII HI. I've talked to my Grandsponsor Alf S. many times about the 12 Steps and 12 Traditions writings because Bill W. asked him to be on the Commiitee as a Consultant. Alf was a PhD college professor. According to him, Bill W. sought out whoever he deemed qualified to help him with this task. THX! Corey F. - - - - dino wrote: Earl T. (He Sold Himself Short) is believed to have helped Bill W. "abbreviate" the 12 Traditions into the "short form." What qualified him to be able to do something like that -- was he an editor? schoolteacher? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4628. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Earl T. and the 12 Traditions From: ricktompkins . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/6/2007 12:46:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Dino, Bill's close friendship with Earl was also a volunteer working relationship. They may have first met in 1937 in Akron. Earl's wife Katie and Lois Wilson also became close friends, with their Evanston, Illinois telephone number prominently listed in Lois' 1941-42 handwritten phone book (found under many papers on her desk at Stepping Stones in 1997--hopefully it underwent archival conservation!). Earl and Katie also visited at the Wilson's home regularly in the 1940s and Bill made many trips to Chicago. There were a few times (1947,1948) when Bill asked Earl to participate in Alcoholic Foundation Trustee meetings in Bill's place as a proxy. Earl's profession was in public relations management, representing various companies, various projects, etc. in the Midwest but I've found no record of stellar importance on his employers. He and Katie may have moved around a lot in the 1940s, too -- either that or he had post office addresses in many cities (Detroit, South Bend, and more). When Dr. Bob (his recovery Sponsor) died in 1950, Earl was his replacement on the AF Board of Trustees. Earl served the AF Board until 1954 (along with other pioneers William Silkworth, Jack Alexander, Bernard Smith, and others), when he returned to Chicago AA service as a Group Service Coordinator and paid employee for the Area Service Office. The lead-in to Earl's life in the 1950s are multiple chapters to write and chronicle someday... This post should further answer your questions: Nell Wing, Bill's personal secretary and AA's first Archivist, reported Earl's contribution for the Short Form in her memoir Grateful To Have Been There. Bill's writing in A.A. Comes of Age and some of his talks (transcribed) also reported that Earl had impressed on him about the wordiness of the "Twelve Points to Assure Our Future" (the Long Form of the Twelve Traditions) needing an edit for the Fellowship's use. The result, along the lines of the two of them working on the Short Form finished in 1948, presented a set of the Traditions that "AAs would sit down for, listen to, understand, and remember a little better." What qualifies any of us for anything in AA service? I'm a mechanical, industrial, and quality engineer by trade but took the time to fully research, develop, and write my own Delegate Area's history -- Assembly-approved, Area-copyrighted, and Area-published twice (1996 and 2003). Bill's particular "trade" was as a salesman and stock analyst whose wordsmith abilities came later in life: check out Language of the Heart and you'll find that his writing ability improved over time. Having professional editors nearby, early on, definitely helped Bill IMHO (in my honest opinion). Probably all of us come into AA recovery with our wits under repair and all aspects of our lives ready for unknown and unlimited growth! Rick, past Northern Illinois Area 20 Historian - - - - Original message: Earl T. and the 12 Traditions Earl T. (He Sold Himself Short) is believed to have helped Bill W. "abbreviate" the 12 Traditions into the "short form." What qualified him to be able to do something like that -- was he an editor? schoolteacher? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4629. . . . . . . . . . . . Living authors of Big Book stories From: jmlpg281 . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/12/2007 5:55:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi, I am an author of one of the stories appearing in the 4th edition of the Big Book. I have met only one other author and he and I shared a number of similar experiences, good and bad, about being an author. I would like to get in contact with other authors to discuss our common experiences, and how to deal with them, such as when to maintain our anonymity regarding this experience, etc. If someone else out there knows any authors of stories in the Big Book that are still alive, could you contact me and let me know how to contact them or, better yet, have them contact me here. Thanks! My e-mail address is johnmlevin@yahoo.com (johnmlevin at yahoo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4630. . . . . . . . . . . . Re:Joe McQ. surgery From: John Wikelius . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/11/2007 8:05:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does someone have an address to send cards or letters? "John Wikelius" (nov85 at graceba.net) Someone wrote to me about this: From: jesse gilliam To: nov85@graceba.net Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 12:42 AM Subject: Re:Joe McQ. surgery John. My name is Jesse from Auburn Ca. I've heard Joe and Charlie's tapes several times and have been to see Joe McC and Charlie. But for Joe McQ I wouldn't have thought it possible to love someone that I have never met. But I have a huge place in my heart for that man and will surely pray for him. Is there somewhere I can send a card to? Thank you for the information, Jesse Gilliam - - - - Message 4623 from "John Wikelius" (nov85 at graceba.net) This is for those of you who have heard the Joe & Charlie Big Book Tapes. Say a prayer or two for our friend Joe. He has Parkinsons and recently had a shunt operation to drain excess fluids to his stomach from his cranial cavity/brain. Joe has over 40 years sober and for years has been active with the Kelly Foundation and Serenity House in Little Rock, Arkansas. Thanks, God bless, love to all. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4631. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Earl T. and the 12 Traditions From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/10/2007 12:30:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Thank you Rick for the historical synopsis of Earl T. I'd like to take the liberty to add a few more items about Earl T. He was an extraordinary AA pioneer. Earl T was the founder of AA in Chicago and is recorded as playing a major role in both the long and short forms of the Traditions. As an item of AA trivial pursuit, Nancy O (founder of this special interest group) wrote that Earl T is the member described in the Big Book chapter "The Family Afterward" pg 135 as getting drunk again after his wife nagged him about his smoking and drinking coffee. He is also the "Mr T" discussed in the Big Book Story "The Keys Of the Kingdom" by Sylvia K (another remarkable Chicago pioneer). Earl T's Big Book story "He Sold Himself Short" chronicled an example of the word-of-mouth 6-Step recovery program practiced prior to the publication of the Big Book. He described the 6 Steps as: 1. Complete deflation 2. Dependence and guidance from a Higher Power 3. Moral inventory 4. Confession 5. Restitution (i.e. amends) 6. Continued work with other alcoholics Earl also describes how he and his sponsor Dr Bob went through those Steps in about 3 or 4 hours. Earl's version of the 6 Steps reflects a more orthodox Oxford Group influence that prevailed in the mid-west. A July 1953 Grapevine article by Bill W titled "A Fragment of History: Origin of the Twelve Steps" chronicles a version of the 6 Steps practiced in New York (see "The Language of the Heart" pg 195) This version is also repeated in "AA Comes of Age" and "Pass It On." By the mid-1940s, shared group experiences from letters sent to the New York office led to reliable conclusions on what group practices worked well and those that didn't. Groups were also asked to send in lists of their membership rules. It provided quite a jolt. If all the rules were applied everywhere it would be impossible for any alcoholic to join AA. Nell Wing in her book "Grateful to Have Been There" (pg 54) explicitly names Earl T as suggesting to Bill W that he codify the decade of experience sent in from group correspondence. It began Bill's 5-year campaign for the Traditions. In his writings, Bill W referred to "a good AA friend" as the source for the suggestion. In an April 1946 Grapevine article titled Twelve Suggested Points for AA Tradition," Bill published what later became known as the long form of the Traditions. The book "The Language of the Heart" preserves all of Bill W's Traditions essays. In early 1949, as plans for the first Inter- national Convention in Cleveland were under way, Earl T suggested to Bill W that the Twelve Suggested Points for AA Tradition would benefit from revision and shortening. ("AA Comes of Age" pg 213 erroneously states it occurred in 1947). Bill, with Earl's help, developed the first draft of the short form of the Traditions "within an afternoon." The draft was refined over the next few months and published in the November 1949 Grapevine which was dedicated to the Traditions to help prepare for the 1950 Convention. When the 12&12 was published in 1953, two wording changes were made to the 1949 Grapevine version of the short form of the Traditions. The term "primary spiritual aim" was changed to "primary purpose" in Tradition 6. The term "principles above personalities" was changed to "principles before personalities" in Tradition 12. Al-Anon later adopted and adapted the 1949 short form version of the Traditions and that's why Traditions 6 and 12 are worded differently between the two Fellowships. As an additional item of AA trivial pursuit, contrary to assertion by many, the short form of the Traditions was not approved by the 1950 Convention. The Traditions meeting was held in the Cleveland Music Hall. After 6 members spoke on the Traditions, Bill W was asked to sum up the Traditions for the attendees. He did not recite either the short or long form of the Traditions. Instead he paraphrased and summarized a variation of the Traditions that is preserved in the book "The Language of the Heart" on page 121. Following Bill's summation, the attendees unanimously approved the Traditions by standing vote. In January 1951, Dr John Norris ("Dr Jack"), Hank G (who in May 1953 became Manager of AA Publishing, Inc) and Earl T joined the Alcoholic Foundation Board as Trustees. Bill W served as a Class B Trustee from April 1949 to January 1951. Earl T was elected to replace Bill and served until January 1955. Earl is recorded as having passed away in October 1962. Cheers Arthur - - - - Original Message from ricktompkins Hi Dino, Bill's close friendship with Earl was also a volunteer working relationship. They may have first met in 1937 in Akron. Earl's wife Katie and Lois Wilson also became close friends, with their Evanston, Illinois telephone number prominently listed in Lois' 1941-42 handwritten phone book (found under many papers on her desk at Stepping Stones in 1997--hopefully it underwent archival conservation!). Earl and Katie also visited at the Wilson's home regularly in the 1940s and Bill made many trips to Chicago. There were a few times (1947,1948) when Bill asked Earl to participate in Alcoholic Foundation Trustee meetings in Bill's place as a proxy. Earl's profession was in public relations management, representing various companies, various projects, etc. in the Midwest but I've found no record of stellar importance on his employers. He and Katie may have moved around a lot in the 1940s, too -- either that or he had post office addresses in many cities (Detroit, South Bend, and more). When Dr. Bob (his recovery Sponsor) died in 1950, Earl was his replacement on the AF Board of Trustees. Earl served the AF Board until 1954 (along with other pioneers William Silkworth, Jack Alexander, Bernard Smith, and others), when he returned to Chicago AA service as a Group Service Coordinator and paid employee for the Area Service Office. The lead-in to Earl's life in the 1950s are multiple chapters to write and chronicle someday... This post should further answer your questions: Nell Wing, Bill's personal secretary and AA's first Archivist, reported Earl's contribution for the Short Form in her memoir Grateful To Have Been There. Bill's writing in A.A. Comes of Age and some of his talks (transcribed) also reported that Earl had impressed on him about the wordiness of the "Twelve Points to Assure Our Future" (the Long Form of the Twelve Traditions) needing an edit for the Fellowship's use. The result, along the lines of the two of them working on the Short Form finished in 1948, presented a set of the Traditions that "AAs would sit down for, listen to, understand, and remember a little better." What qualifies any of us for anything in AA service? I'm a mechanical, industrial, and quality engineer by trade but took the time to fully research, develop, and write my own Delegate Area's history -- Assembly-approved, Area-copyrighted, and Area-published twice (1996 and 2003). Bill's particular "trade" was as a salesman and stock analyst whose wordsmith abilities came later in life: check out Language of the Heart and you'll find that his writing ability improved over time. Having professional editors nearby, early on, definitely helped Bill IMHO (in my honest opinion). Probably all of us come into AA recovery with our wits under repair and all aspects of our lives ready for unknown and unlimited growth! Rick, past Northern Illinois Area 20 Historian - - - - Original message: Earl T. and the 12 Traditions Earl T. (He Sold Himself Short) is believed to have helped Bill W. "abbreviate" the 12 Traditions into the "short form." What qualified him to be able to do something like that -- was he an editor? schoolteacher? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4632. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: My Utmost for His Highest From: Jon Markle . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/9/2007 7:56:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I rec'd a copy of this book for my undergrad graduation. However, I was not much interested in it then. I got nothing from it . . . I was more interested in "other things". When I got sober, years later, it was waiting in the boxes of books I'd packed away. And when I began to read it and found astounding spiritual wisdom in the daily reflections. It became my constant companion along with the Big Book and the 12x12. It is falling apart from the wear, as are those books. I have new copies of all three now, but for some reason, I gravitate to my original copies . . . they hold so much history for me, both in tears and personal notes . . . not to mention coffee stains! LOL I introduced my sponsor to that book, and he found it equally valuable to him. I've given a copy to my sponsees as well. There is a second volume available too. Jon (Raleigh) 9/9/82 On Oct 6, 2007, at 10:30 PM, george cleveland wrote: > Message #4613 > > http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/4613 > > asked, what did the early AA people use for > books on prayer and meditation during the > period 1935 to 1939? > > - - - - > > Personally, I've found a lot of Oswald Chambers' > thinking in the Big Book. > > Oswald Chambers, "My Utmost for His > Highest" is still widely read and available > almost everywhere. > > George Cleveland IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4633. . . . . . . . . . . . Forensic handwriting expert From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/14/2007 4:57:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII We need a forensic handwriting expert who is in the AA program, who would volunteer to look at some of the handwriting on a prepublication manuscript of the Big Book, as a service to the fellowship. We need someone with real professional train- ing and credentials adequate enough to testify as an expert witness in court trials. See e.g. http://forensic-evidence.com/site/ID/ID00004_8.html http://www.crimelibrary.com/criminal_mind/forensics/literary/2.html This is not because anything is going to be taken to court, but because we need someone who has genuinely passed the tests for expert status, to see if some disputed questions can be settled with a greater degree of certitude. I suggested to Dr. Kurtz, and he has come to a agree, that it is time to call in the experts now, as there is just too much uncertainty remaining on certain passages, and we don't want to end up with people just guessing. If we have any volunteers, or if you know of someone whom we might contact, please email Dr. Ernest Kurtz kurtzern@umich.edu (kurtzern at umich.edu) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4634. . . . . . . . . . . . Re:Joe McQ. surgery From: CBBB164@AOL.COM . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/14/2007 2:58:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Cliff Bishop and Chris Budnick: Get well cards can be sent to: Joe & Loubelle McQuany 3121 Spring St (Home) 72206 2800 W. Roosevelt (Park) 72204 Little Rock, AR He was doing well as of last night. Cliff Bishop 214-350-1190 http://www.ppgaadallas.org/ - - - - From: "Chris Budnick" (cbudnick at nc.rr.com) You can write Joe at: Kelly Foundation, Inc. 2801 West Roosevelt, Little Rock, AR 72204 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4635. . . . . . . . . . . . "Hi, My Name is Boris" From: jblair101 . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/15/2007 10:25:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "Hi, My Name Is Boris" Heidi Brown 10.15.07 Forbes.com Lou Bantle, a former tobacco executive and alcoholic, battled apathy, corruption and the mob to bring Alcoholics Anonymous to Russia. Igor B., a Russian married father of two, could drink for a month straight but wanted to quit. Repeated injections of a powerful antialcohol drug at a Russian clinic didn't help. Vyacheslav O., a former boxer from St. Petersburg, got detox treatments in eight different hospitals in as many cities. Not much good there, either. When he didn't drink, he did heroin. Russia remains an alcohol-sodden country, its common treatments too often ineffective or downright bizarre. But now Alcoholics Anon- ymous, the 12-step meetings program that sprang up in America in 1935, is taking root in Russia, with 300 groups across the country. And behind the spread of AA in Russia is an American, Louis Bantle, 79, who grappled with alcoholism while chief executive of U.S. Tobacco (now UST) from 1973 to 1993. Ten years ago, overriding Russian resistance, he established a 30-bed center called House of Hope on the Hill, situated in a rural setting 45 minutes outside of St. Petersburg. It is today Russia's only free alcoholism-treatment center that uses the principles of AA in a 28-day program. As patients finished and went home, they started up AA meetings in their own towns. The center has treated 2,500 people from 110 cities across the country and some former Soviet states. When visited this summer, Igor and Vyacheslav were nearing the end of their stay. "Every day I uncover some- thing new about myself," says Vyacheslav, the boxer, who has scars on his face and stocky, muscular arms. "I want to keep talking." Bantle says he first sought help for alcoholism in 1968, attending a two-week treatment program. But he avoided the necessary group meetings and fell back into drinking excessively. One morning ten years later, now chief executive of UST, he woke up so hungover that he took a drink. That shook him up enough that he began attending AA meetings at Greenwich Hospital in Connecticut and now considers himself a recovering alcoholic. He got a taste of alcoholism treatment in Russia on his first trip there in 1988. He visited a 3,500-patient addiction-treatment center in Moscow and was horrified. People were treated like prisoners, he says, forced to work for free for an auto factory. They received bizarre treatments such as blood transfusions, all the while living behind barred windows. "It was ghastly -- really slavery," Bantle says. In the old Soviet Union one-third of premature deaths were alcohol-related. But AA was unofficially banned: It was defined as a religious sect, since it requires members to believe in a higher power that heals. Western medical literature was mostly unavailable, and the idea of self-help didn't exist in a regime where educated higher-ups knew best. The transition to a free market hasn't squelched Russians' taste for vodka. While statistics on alcoholism's prevalence are hard to come by, there are a few indicators. Russian male life expectancy, at 59, is the lowest of any developed country. A study published recently in the Lancet found nearly half of premature male deaths in one Russian city were attributed to habitual binge drinking and consuming "nonbeverage alcohol" such as cologne. "Russia is drowning in alcoholism," despairs Svetlana Moseeva, the director of House of Hope. Doctors in Russia still don't endorse AA. Instead, "narcologists" in expensive private clinics administer quasimedical treatments such as a detox drip of saline and vitamins, and a hypnosis system developed in the Crimea in the mid-20th century. Also used are aversion therapy -- which trains the patient to become nauseous in the presence of alcohol -- and antabuse, a drug that causes headaches, nausea and even death if alcohol is consumed while taking it. Both are used in the West but are considered insufficient without therapy and supervision. Bantle's first step was to try to introduce AA to Russians through educational conferences he organized there and in the U.S. He also paid to bring hundreds of Russian officials, doctors and artists over for free treatment at U.S. clinics. But the Russians, he says, saw the trips as a free vacation and spent much of their time drinking. It was also costly, and donations from UST dried up by 1996. He then decided to establish a permanent AA center in Russia. A psychiatrist named Evgeny Zubkov, who was a visiting professor at New York University, became Bantle's Russian point man. Politically connected and known in the artistic community of St. Petersburg, Zubkov helped Bantle buy a house for $25,000 in 1997 in the tiny settle- ment of Pericula, outside of St. Petersburg. Renovation headaches in America pale next to Bantle's travails. A Russian contractor hired to restore the house embezzled $17,000 of the $25,000 he was paid, and that first winter in the house "everyone almost froze to death," growls Bantle, still livid. Later, sanitation inspectors briefly shut down the house, claiming overcrowding. Fire inspectors wanted the small chapel next to the house moved. "They heard we were supported by an American and thought we would pay anything to deal with it," Zubkov scoffs. Even the mob wanted in on the action. Gangsters drove up in a huge Mercedes and demanded $10,000 monthly protection payments. The staff showed them the house's $6,500 monthly budget. "Then they realized what we were about," recalls Zubkov. "They gave us $1,000 and sent one of their own to get treated." In 2000 sanitation authorities returned, insisting the wells provided insufficient water. So Bantle ponied up $140,000 to lay pipe and bring water from the village to the home. Now the water pressure is nearly nonexistent, he says, thanks to new developments tapping into the pipe. At the home recently, overlooking a serene valley, patients stand outside, smoking and chatting quietly, when they are not in intensive classes, group therapy or individual counseling. Homemade meals are served in a cozy dining room with handwrought wooden benches. The 20 staffers include a doctor and two nurses, as well as social workers and counselors -- almost all with histories of alcoholism. It's a tough disease. The house doesn't keep recidivism rates, but AA generally has at best a 25% success rate. Bantle continues to provide half of the home's $125,000-a-year budget, but the staff worries about what will happen after he's gone. Plus, a recent strengthening of the ruble is making his dollars count less. After decades of communism Russians don't give much to charity (the lack of tax writeoffs for donations doesn't help). Zubkov persuaded a Kremlin official to donate $100,000 of his and other officials' money. St. Petersburg Governor Valentina Matvienko, a friend of Putin's and a potential candidate for president in 2008, recently agreed to put some municipal funds toward renovating the house. Bantle has spent $2.5 million over the years on the home. His son and daughter oversee a foundation he endowed with $10 million that could take over a good portion of the house's expenses after he dies, he says. There is a clear dependence on the grand- fatherly American at the home. Photos of him are everywhere. "Everyone looks on him as a paternal figure--it's almost mystical," says Zubkov. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4636. . . . . . . . . . . . Borchert book/movie ....New information From: secondles . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/16/2007 6:20:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Following my post about a new movie being prepared based on Wm.Borchert's book, THE LOIS WILSON STORY, WHEN LOVE WAS NOT ENOUGH, I received an e-mail from Mr. Borchert asking for details of the factual errors I had found in the First Edition. I sent those details to him. He said that a Second Edition is being worked on in a few weeks, and that he will review my input and make corrections "that need to be made." This is very encouraging, and I believe that the new movie script (which he is writing) will be very popular, as was his previous movie, MY NAME IS BILL W. Les Cole Colorado Sporings, CO elsietwo@msn.com (elsietwo at msn.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4637. . . . . . . . . . . . Beer served at AA meeting? From: ckbudnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/18/2007 1:33:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I seem to recall reading somewhere that Bill received a report of an "AA group" in the early days that served beer or allowed the members to drink beer. I can't remember where I came across it. I was wondering if anyone knows where this can be found. Thanks, Chris Raleigh, NC IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4638. . . . . . . . . . . . The name of the Mayflower Hotel bar? From: arcchi88 . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/17/2007 11:06:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Greetings, I am new to the list, but love what I have read thus far! I have a reference from an AA oldtimer, who unfortunately died this past July, so I am unable to follow up with her. She said that she had seen a photo that identified the name of the bar in the Mayflower Hotel as "Here's How." I was wondering if anyone can confirm this or point me to a source to validate it. Thanks! Tom C. Evanston, IL. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4639. . . . . . . . . . . . The term sponsor From: flat412acrehouse . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/17/2007 8:22:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII My group was wondering with regards to the above when the term sponsor first came into effect and started to be used. I read with great interest, 'A Manual for Alcoholics Anonymous' which I understand was written in Akron, Ohio, 1940 and was wondering further if this would have been the first time sponsorship was written about. Wishing you serenity and kindest regards Leah IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4640. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The term sponsor From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/18/2007 4:08:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Leah, I don't know when the actual term "sponsor" was used for the first time in AA. I did a search in our past messages for that word though, and did come up with a lot of references to descriptions of HOW sponsorship was practiced in early AA, in different cities and by different people. These messages give references to a number of good books and pamphlets written by or about early AA figures, and suggest even going back and looking at certain Oxford Group practices (even though the Oxford Group did not call this "sponsorship"). It seems to me (but I'll let the experts give the final word on this) that the practice of sponsoring newcomers started before they actually had a word for it. Glenn C., South Bend - - - - 4631 and 2286: Dr. Bob's sponsorship of Earl Treat 4593: Ebby Thacher is sometimes spoken of as Bill W.'s sponsor 4574: Father Ed Dowling is also sometimes spoken of as Bill W.'s sponsor; see the book by Robert Fitzgerald, S.J., "The Soul of Sponsorship: The Friendship of Fr. Ed Dowling, S.J. and Bill Wilson in Letters" 4502 and 4503: one version of early sponsor- ship (as practiced in Akron in the very early 1940's) in the Akron Manual, see http://hindsfoot.org/AkrMan1.html and http://hindsfoot.org/AkrMan2.html 4452: sponsorship in early Cleveland AA (from the "Language of the Heart" and the Grapevine) 4444: Clarence Snyder's 1944 A.A. Sponsorship Pamphlet 4439 and 3893: the antecedents of sponsorship in the Oxford Group. It is also useful to look at their concept of the 5 C's and the responsibilities of doing Oxford Group type missionary work (Confidence, Confession, Conviction, Conversion and parti- cularly Continuance). It wasn't called sponsorship, but Frank Buchman shepherded Father Sam Shoemaker very carefully at the beginning, for example. 4299 (also 4151): a reminder that Dr. Bob sponsored Clarence Snyder, which means that reading that part of Mitchell K.'s book will give you some information about sponsorship: "How It Worked: The Story of Clarence S. Snyder and the Early Days of Alcoholics Anonymous in Cleveland, Ohio" 4283: sponsorship in early Philadelphia AA 4269: the Cleveland understanding of sponsor- ship transferred to Texas with the starting of the first AA group in that state in Houston in February 1940 4039 and 4059: the important role of the padrino (sponsor) in AA in Mexico City 4032: in early British AA, John M. served as the first sponsor to Travers of Bristol until his death in 1964 3867: Clarence Snyder's sponsoring of Irwin Meyerson, who helped found the first AA groups in Indianapolis and many other places 3779, 2415 and 2413: Ernie Gerig of Toledo, a man who "just seemed to glow with light" according to oldtimer Larry W. who was sponsored by Ernie. 3671: reference to the AA pamphlet "Questions and Answers on Sponsorship." 3575: sponsorship of women in early AA by the male alcoholic's wives 3511: Marty Mann's sponsorship of Felicia (see the relevant parts of Sally and David R. Brown, "A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann: The First Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous") 3372: in early Cleveland AA 3365: sponsorship in Barry L., "Living Sober" 3234: Bill W. as Mrs. Marty Mann's sponsor (see her biography by the Brown's for more details) 2996: Ralph Pfau (the Father John Doe of the "Golden Books") gives lots of very interesting and insightful details in his autobiography about how Doherty Sheerin sponsored him after he came into the AA program in Indianapolis on Nov. 10, 1943 -- Father Ralph Pfau, "Prodigal Shepherd." I would say that this book is a "must read" for anyone who wants to know what really good sponsorship was like in early AA. Sgt. Bill S. also talks about how his sponsors worked with him when he first came into AA during the latter 1940's in his book "On the Military Firing Line" http://hindsfoot.org/kBS1.html (this book is our only statement from that wing of early AA which emphasized the psychological side of the program instead of the spiritual side) 2897: Sackville of Dublin in early British AA: Bill W. described him in "AA Comes of Age" as "AA’s greatest Correspondent" and said that he was someone who through his letters sponsored hundreds of AA’s all over the world. 2839: Grapevine July, 1945, "What Constitutes a Good Sponsor, As Minneapolis Sees It" 2091: The "Seven AA Tools of Recovery" read at the beginning of many meetings in northern Indiana gives a nice one sentence summary of good sponsorship, "SPONSOR: A sponsor is a person in the A.A. program who has what we want and is continually sober. A sponsor is someone you can relate to, have access to and can confide in." http://hindsfoot.org/tools.html 2015: Sister Ignatia writing about how to sponsor people (in the October 1951 issue of "Hospital Progress") I checked back as far as Sep 20, 2004, but did not check the first 2000 messages on our Message Board. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4641. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: The name of the Mayflower Hotel bar? From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/18/2007 2:29:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Bill Lash says the Merry Man Tavern, Jay M. in Akron says the Parisian Lounge, plus additional info from Shakey Mike. - - - - From Bill Lash (barefootbill at optonline.net) Your answer can be found if you go to: http://www.justloveaudio.com/ click on "free resources" http://www.justloveaudio.com/resources.php click on "Assorted" http://www.justloveaudio.com/resources.php?cat_id=4 click on "Big Book Name and Date References" http://www.justloveaudio.com/resources/Assorted/Big_Book_Name_and_Date_Refer ence\ s.pdf [6] go down to Big Book page 154 & you will find your answer: The Merry Man Tavern - - - - From (Jayaa82 at earthlink.net) The name of the bar was the Parisian Lounge Jay M., Akron - - - - From (Shakey1aa at aol.com) http://passport.akronhistory.org/mayflower.htm has a lot of historical data about the Mayflower including a copy of the opening day souvenir that details all the shops and employees when the hotel opened. yis Shakey Mike Gwirtz -----Original Message----- Greetings, I am new to the list, but love what I have read thus far! I have a reference from an AA oldtimer, who unfortunately died this past July, so I am unable to follow up with her. She said that she had seen a photo that identified the name of the bar in the Mayflower Hotel as "Here's How." I was wondering if anyone can confirm this or point me to a source to validate it. Thanks! Tom C. Evanston, IL. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4642. . . . . . . . . . . . Date of AA''s founding From: bruceken@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/18/2007 11:36:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Five years ago, I wrote the email below to the Archivist at the American Medical Association and received his answer. This means that the accepted date of the founding of AA is probably a week off -- or the 17th rather than the 10th of June. Bruce K. San Francisco, CA - - - - "Bruce K." 09/27/02 02:43PM I am trying to find the exact dates and location of the 1935 AMA Convention can you help me? Bruce K. San Francisco, CA - - - - I received this response: The exact dates for the 1935 AMA annual convention are as follows: June 10-14, 1935 at Atlantic City, New Jersey. Robert Tenuta Reference Archivist Records Management and Archives 515 North State Street Chicago, IL. 60610 Robert_Tenuta@ama-assn.org Phone: 312-464-4083 Fax: 312-464-5826 To discover the illustrious history of the AMA, visit www.ama-assn.org/go/history IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4643. . . . . . . . . . . . A.A. buildings declared as historical landmarks From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/19/2007 4:05:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In Philadelphia we have a clubhouse that is very old called the 4021 Clubhouse (its address is 4021 Walnut St.). Its members are considering trying to get it declared a historical landmark. Has any other clubhouse done this? And what is the process to do so? Are there any financial advantages in doing so? yis Shakey Mike Gwirtz going to Niagara Falls NY 9/08 ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4644. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The term sponsor From: Ernest Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/18/2007 7:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Enie Kurtz (with additional comments by Jim L. and Grateful Graham) - - - - Oh dear! How I wish I had been more clearly explicit in *Not-God*, but see page 89. And a later very complex endnote on the Cleveland hospital situation. Anyway, as it was explained to me by Walter C. and Dick P. back in 1976: The origin of the word *sponsor* (but not neces- sarily the concept) was that many of the early Cleveland drunks had to be hospitalized for detoxification and for various reasons did not go to Dr. Bob's in Akron. But hospitals were hesitant to admit alcoholics -- not because they did not think that they could help them detoxify, but because alcoholics rarely paid their bills. So it became the practice in Cleveland, when some new candidate for AA needed detoxification, that someone would "sponsor" his hospital admission -- promise to pay the bill. Of course the "sponsor" very much wanted the new candidate to remain sober, so that he could get a job and pay back the sponsor that cost of hospitalization ($400-$600 in 2007 money). And so the sponsor saw that the newbie got to meetings and practiced the Steps and . . . . The term and its application developed from there. I'm pretty sure there are other versions, but that's what I was told by two who were in a position to know, having come into AA in that era. ernie kurtz - - - - From: (Sober186 at aol.com) From what is written In the publication, AA Comes of Age, page 20-21, it appears the term was in use in Cleveland, Ohio shortly after the stories about the work of AA were published in the Plain Dealer newspaper. The stories ran in October and November of 1939. Jim L. Cent OH - - - - From: (gratefulgh at aol.com) From the Encyclopedia Britannica: "Godparent": formally sponsor (from the Latin spondere, "to promise"). One who stands surety in the rite of Christian baptism. Grateful Graham London UK IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4645. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The term sponsor From: dino . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/18/2007 5:49:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In Message 4640, Glenn Chesnut gave a list of past messages which talked about sponsoring.* - - - - In addition to Earl T., Jim B. makes reference to his sponsor Jackie in Jim's story "The Vicious Cycle." I also found that the "Detroit Pamphlet" or "Tablemate" sort of clarifies how the term was used in the early 1940s. http://hindsfoot.org/detr0.html Apparently it was someone to vouch for you (sponsor) so that you could enter into this closed, secret society. After gaining access to this society one had to be indoctrinated into the plan of recovery, hence the beginners classes, the "Detroit Pamphlet," The Little Red Book etc. - - - - *See Message 4640 from Glenn C. at http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/4640 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4646. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The name of the Mayflower Hotel bar? From: Robt Woodson . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/21/2007 9:28:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello Tom, According to one of the the former desk clerks, who spoke at the Second Archives Seminar held at the Mayflower itself, in Akron, she worked at the Mayflower during Bill's days and reported that there were three bars in the Mayflower around that time ... I seem to recall my father, a lounge pianist, playing in one of them, an Entertainment Lounge/Piano Bar called the Merryman Tavern at the Sheraton Mayflower. The Parisian that was mentioned by Jay M. rings a bell too. Good Luck with this one, Woody in Akron IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4647. . . . . . . . . . . . Joe McQ. From: CBBB164@AOL.COM . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/21/2007 4:01:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Joe is back in ICU with pneumonia. Prayers please. Cliff Bishop 214-350-1190 http://www.ppgaadallas.org/ IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4648. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: The name of the Mayflower Hotel bar? From: Joe Nugent . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/21/2007 5:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "None of the several narratives of Bill W.'s moment of truth conforms to the actual configuration of the lobby in 1935. They all misleadingly depict Bill crossing between the elevator bank and the bar at opposite ends. Given the deployment of furniture in 1935 (according to an old photograph), so as to leave an aisle to the desk from the Main Street stairs, the only possible path for Bill to have paced ran north and south across the width of the lobby, with the elevators at one end. But what stood at the other end, past the desk in the middle, was the State Street entrance. There was no bar on the same lobby level as the elevators. It lay neither "down the lobby" (AA) nor "at one end of my beat" (AACA) nor "at one end of the lobby" (PIO) nor "directly across from his path of march" (BW). To enter the Merryman Tavern, Bill would have had to climb seven steps to the mezzanine level, and he could not have seen inside without such an ascent. (This may account for the otherwise inexplic- able emphasis in the accounts on bar sounds rather than alluring smells or sights.) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4649. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Beer served at AA meeting? From: Mark Everett . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/19/2007 9:19:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Mark Everett (with comments from Mitchell K. and Glenn C.) Hi there, Try looking in "Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age," first chapter "When A.A. Came of Age," page 25, third paragraph. Bill mentions the "Richmond A.A.'s who believed in getting away from wives and drinking only beer." Maybe this will help. Mark - - - - From: "Mitchell K." (mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com) I believe this was mentioned in Wally P.'s book on Central Offices and Intergroups published by Charlie Bishop - - - - From Glenn C. (glennccc at sbcglobal.net) Or in other words, the AACOA passage says there was one group which naively accepted the belief held by some Americans that you weren't an alcoholic if you only drank beer. It doesn't say that group actually served beer at its meetings. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4650. . . . . . . . . . . . Visitor from Denmark to Miami and Orlando, Florida From: Bent Christensen . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/18/2007 10:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII My wife, my son and I are coming over from Denmark and going on the Sober Sailors Cuise from Miami to the Caribbean Nov. 2 - 11. We will be in Miami, Florida, Oct. 31 - Nov. 1 and in Orlando, Florida, Nov. 11 -16. If any member of AA History Lovers are going on the cruise or are living in these areas and if we could manage to get together, I would love to meet you. Warm Regards Bent My email address in Denmark is: (bent_christensen5 at yahoo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4651. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The name of the Mayflower Hotel bar? From: James Bliss . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/21/2007 11:12:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII To give the citation of this quote, it can be found at: http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-rroot810.html (a site with a definite agenda) At this site it states that this is from: "Bill W. and Mr. Wilson -- The Legend and Life of A.A.'s Cofounder," Matthew J. Raphael, page 11. I do not know the the integrity of this citation not the quality of the source in the citation. I just wanted to provide the entire source from which this comes. I had seen it earlier this week as well. Jim Joe Nugent wrote: > "None of the several narratives of Bill W.'s > moment of truth conforms to the actual > configuration of the lobby in 1935. They all > misleadingly depict Bill crossing between the > elevator bank and the bar at opposite ends. > Given the deployment of furniture in 1935 > (according to an old photograph), so as to > leave an aisle to the desk from the Main Street > stairs, the only possible path for Bill to > have paced ran north and south across the > width of the lobby, with the elevators at one > end. But what stood at the other end, past > the desk in the middle, was the State Street > entrance. > > There was no bar on the same lobby level as > the elevators. It lay neither "down the lobby" > (AA) nor "at one end of my beat" (AACA) nor > "at one end of the lobby" (PIO) nor "directly > across from his path of march" (BW). To enter > the Merryman Tavern, Bill would have had to > climb seven steps to the mezzanine level, and > he could not have seen inside without such an > ascent. > > (This may account for the otherwise inexplic- > able emphasis in the accounts on bar sounds > rather than alluring smells or sights.) > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4652. . . . . . . . . . . . Gangsters Anonymous: Deadly Serious Business From: jblair101 . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/22/2007 7:11:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This interview is for your information and also for those you know who are not members of AAHistoryLovers but may have contact with such individuals. As the moderator of this group said to me in an e-mail, the problems discussed in this article are "deadly serious business -- there are quite a few people in the AA program in the U.S. who have had to deal with these issues, and not just the AA people who are involved with AA meetings in the prisons and penetentiaries." jblair - - - - Homicide perspectives: Kenny Mitchell, founder, Gangsters Anonymous http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/homicidereport/ Jill Leovy, Los Angeles Times Blog, October 19, 2007 "Through gang life, we tried to avoid reality, pain and misery.... We sought relief through retaliation, extortion, and robbery more and more often .... "We reached a point in our lives where we felt like a lost cause .... We were sick and tired of pain and trouble; we were frightened and hid our fear .... When nothing relieved our paranoia and fear, we hit bottom and became ready to ask for help." -- from the unreleased "Gangsters Anonymous: Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions" Kenny Mitchell, 44, is a longshoreman and the founder of Gangster's Anonymous. He believes the solution to homicide lies in changing the thinking of gang members through a 12-step program. HR: What is Gangsters Anonymous? Mitchell: It's a 12-step program, based on Alcoholics Anonymous. We are recovering gangsters who meet to help each other stay crime-free. We believe the gangster mentality is a disease -- a mental disorder. We are sick. We suffer from a criminal mentality. But recovery is our responsibility. HR: How did Gangsters Anonymous get started? Mitchell: I grew up in Los Angeles. 54th and Main, then Carson, then Inglewood. My mother was single. She was a drunk. I started hanging out with a gang when I was 7 years old. It was the thing to do -- like a legacy, like you had no choice. It was mainly guys hanging out. There was a dress code. I had a khaki suit -- it was the early '70s! And I would get my hair pressed and curled.... Everything I did I got in trouble for .... I ended up at Morningside High (in Inglewood). I had been Crippin' but now I was in a Blood gang with my brother. We beat up people. We picked on the tough guys. You could get the girls that way .... I graduated on the honor role with a 3.3 GPA and lettered in pole vaulting -- HR: That doesn't sound like a gang banger. Mitchell: I'm a gangster, not an idiot! You see the low-bottom gang members a lot in the media. But others are well-spoken and doing well in their lives. It wouldn't work otherwise. Who would want to follow the low-bottom guys? A lot of these successful guys also commit robberies. Anyway, I went to Grambling State. I got stabbed twice there. They said I was "dead on arrival" at the hospital, but somehow I lived .... After that I beat up a guy real bad. Real bad. I got kicked out of Grambling .... I joined the Navy, and three or four months later, I got 70 days in the brig. Then I went AWOL .... When I was 30, I was on my way to jail. I had a fight with an 18-year-old guy, and he beat my ass. I woke up in the hospital.... That's when I got involved with AA (Alcoholics Anonymous) .... I got sober, but my disease, my gangster ment- ality, began to get worse. I needed something more. Something that focused on my criminal behavior. I was having suicidal thoughts. I was having homicidal thoughts. I began to have nightmares. To wake up sweating. Insane thoughts of criminal behavior .... One day, I was doing my fourth step with my sponsor, who was also a gangster. We got to the part about being powerless, and I said to him, "We need this for us! If I'd had someone tell me this long ago, I wouldn't live wanting to control everything around me.' ... Years later, I sat down with the blue book (the handbook of Alcoholics Anonymous) and I almost rewrote every page. Our first meeting was in 2001 at a barbershop on Western. The police came and accosted the gangsters who came!... We saw a need to recover as gangsters, and to show the world we can recover. We have been meeting ever since. HR: What does it mean to recover from the "gangster mentality"? Mitchell: It's about showing people how to live life one day at a time, crime-free--no matter what. It doesn't matter what you call yourself, whether you're a pimp, player, hustler. It's a disease, a mental disorder. For many gangsters, it has to do with post-traumatic stress. For me, it meant my instant solution to all problems was to be aggressive. It's about control. It's about not being a buster. I had to learn to be buster, to be square. Before, I couldn't stand that! I couldn't stand to see a normal dude with his shirt tucked into his pants. I had to get past feeling weak. I had to stop lifting weights! I have finally started wearing a seatbelt. I never could before, because I always thought, I have to be able to get out of the car quick. I still can't bring myself to tuck in my shirt. I still suffer from that gangster sh--. I know I cannot get angry. It's like in AA -- how you can't have just one drink. If I get angry, I end up committing crimes. HR: So much of 12-step philosophy has to to with accepting powerlessness. Isn't that especially difficult for people to whom being powerless might mean getting shot? Mitchell: We talk about it all the time in meetings. That idea of weakness. Committing crimes looks like strength to gangsters. I tell them, "A whole lot of days you will feel weak. Put down. If you stop doing your crime of choice -- guns, robbery--you will feel weak." It makes them feel they could become victimized. But I tell them, what's wrong with being weak? Should we kill all weaklings? Don't weak people have an opportunity to live in our society?' And recovery isn't weak. You will feel weak. But you have to get past it. You see, no one has taught us how to do it. How not to be aggressive. I tell these guys, "When a brother is upset with you, say, 'How are you doing? And you shake his hand.' " They have to be taught how to become squares. How to become normal people -- to detox. To become approachable, employable. The kind of person who can earn money, or start his own business. Our weakness turns into a brick that becomes the strength to build our future. It's why it's good the hip-hop culture is waking up and teaching us it is OK to be square. We need to have them teach us how to be Run-DMC rather than a killer rapper. We already know gangster. We don't know square. No one has taught us how to do it. It's not easy. HR: You talk about the gangster mentality making men feel powerful. But a lot of gangsters seem so unhappy. Mitchell: Yes. There are a lot of slices to the pie. There are people with no emotion, no fear -- into their car, their jewelry. But other guys feel the misery and fear. Those guys are the epitome of normal people! That is a normal person's reaction to this. Those are the guys who are trapped -- they are normal people trapped among people who have no heart. HR: What about all those women who used to like you better when you fought? Mitchell: These woman suffer from the same disease. I was on a date the other night, and you know what she said to me? She said, "I love the gangsters. That's why I love you!" (Shakes head). I would not date a woman that suffers the same disease that I have. But the ones who don't have it -- the square ones -- aren't attracted to a guy like me! So I go home alone (laughs). I am just a boring individual now. But I'm free. (See also Homicide Perspectives: Derrick Bell) For meetings and other information about Gangsters Anonymous, e-mail GA.global@yahoo.com. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4653. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Beer served at AA meeting? From: Cindy Miller . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/22/2007 9:16:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Seems to me I read in "Grateful to Have Been There" that this group DID serve beer at the meetings -- and that this was yet another reason for Bill to start compiling the Traditions. However, I can't cite an exact page. (Sorry) -cm `·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º> IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4654. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: The name of the Mayflower Hotel bar? From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/22/2007 9:50:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII When you come in the front door of the Mayflower & up the main stairs you are then in the lobby with the elevators to the right. If you go around & behind the main stairs (you are now facing the front of the Mayflower) the Merry Man Tavern was up several stairs & to the right. On Founders' Day weekends they usually have a sign there marking its location. Even though there are several stairs to go up to get to the Merry Man Tavern, these few stairs & the lobby are really all in the same room so I personally wouldn't disagree with Bill W.'s descriptions. I too would describe it as the other end of the lobby. Peace & love. Barefoot Bill IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4655. . . . . . . . . . . . Old archival newscasts about AA From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/22/2007 1:07:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Five AA archival newscasts from Time. For a delightful glimpse into AA's past, please follow the link below. http://www.themarchoftime.net In the search bar at the top type in: alcoholics anonymous Then click GO. This opens to five short movie segments. Double-left-click on each segment to get the larger picture screen. All I can say is wow! IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4656. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Gangsters Anonymous: Films about Alcoholism From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/25/2007 8:49:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "YOU KILL ME" To add to the list of AA FILMS Movies on Alcoholism The one that was assembled by billyk (billyk3 at yahoo.com) in Messages 2926 through 2931: - - - - Speaking of gangsters & AA, I saw a new movie last night called "You Kill Me." It stars Ben Kingsley, Tea Leoni, Luke Wilson, & Bill Pullman. It's about a Polish mafia hit-man with an alcohol problem trying to deal with his murderous lifestyle while in AA. It's very funny. Just Love, Barefoot Bill IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4657. . . . . . . . . . . . When A Man Loves A Woman From: Bill Kain . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/25/2007 5:28:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Scheduled on the lifetime channel today, 10/25 at 2:30PM great movie about alcohol addiction starring meg ryan and andy garcia. billyk IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4658. . . . . . . . . . . . Joe McQuany has passed away From: doci333 . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/26/2007 2:15:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Condolences in Memory of Joe McQuany It is with deep sorrow and sadness that we announce the passing of Joe McQuany. For over 40 years, Joe has devoted himself to helping others discover the joy of recovery from alcoholism and drug addiction. Please leave condolences, memories, thoughts, for Joe's family and loved ones at: http://www.kellyfdn.com/condolences_in_memory_of_joe_mcq.htm Please let us know where you from: City, Country. "Rest, Just rest - Thanks for paving the way." Dave G. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4659. . . . . . . . . . . . History of Joe McQ. & Charlie Big Book Studies From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/26/2007 8:35:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII It is hard to imagine how many people this man touched with his humor and knowledge. He had a true gift and a calling that he did not ignore. God bless the teachers. Wanted to let you that Joe McQuany died yester- day at 3:30 in Little Rock, Arkansas. He was the original Joe of the Joe & Charlie Big Book Studies. Will send details when the plans are final for services. Please pray for LouBelle & Family. In His Spirit, Nancy Smith - - - - History of Joe & Charlie Big Book Studies: Joe McQ. & Charlie P. met in 1973 when Joe introduced Charlie as the AA speaker at an Al-Anon Convention. Joe had wondered if Charlie might be the country-western singer Charlie Pride. "He wasn't even the right color," Joe laments. They instantly discovered their mutual fascination with AA's basic text "The Big Book". What interested them most was that The Big Book was written in a particular sequence to convey certain ideas. That interest began a close friendship which has lasted to this day. They would frequently meet to discuss the book, often driving 225 miles to meet in each other's homes. Soon they were planning meetings in hotel rooms at AA conventions in Oklahoma and Arkansas, and within a few years, the meetings grew in popularity. In 1977, some members met in a Tulsa, OK hotel room for a discussion of the Big Book. One asked Joe & Charlie to come to his home group to present a program on the book. An AA taper made a four tape set of their presentation and called it "The Big Book Study". The tapes were gradually circu- lated throughout the fellowship and invitations were received for Joe & Charlie to present the study at AA conventions, roundups and special events. By 1980, there had been about eight studies offered. At the 1980 International AA Convention in New Orleans, Westly P. an impassioned Big Booker from Pompano Beach, Florida, organized a lunch for 1,500 AAs from all over the world and gave away 100 Joe & Charlie tape sets as door prizes. Invitations exploded and within a couple of years, Joe & Charlie were presenting about 36 studies a year worldwide. Obviously, the seminars struck a deep chord within AA members ... for the reaffirmation of "this message" as written in April 1939 with the publication of the first edition of Alcoholics Anonymous. Studies have been given in 48 states and most Canadian provinces. Additionally, Australia, New Zealand, England, Scotland, Ireland, Germany, Switzerland, Sweden and the Nether- lands have all hosted the Big Book Study seminars with Joe & Charlie. The original Joe McQ. has had to curtail his travels in recent years. Oddly enough, another Joe -- Joe McC., active in the study group since the beginning -- has been able to pick up the slack. "Where God guides, God provides," as some members say. All this growth has not come without a measure of turbulence. What spiritual journey does not encounter obstacles? Some fellow AAs have termed the duo, "self-appointed gurus". Others have accused them of making money on these weekends. Actually, only travel expenses, meals and lodging are paid for by the independent AA host committee sponsoring the study. This is in accordance with the AA Guidelines for Confer- ences and Conventions (MG4), published by the General Service Office. Since 1977, an esti- mated 200,000 AA Members have experienced the spiritual benefits of these collective studies. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4660. . . . . . . . . . . . Joe McQ Passes From: jays5279 . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/26/2007 11:18:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dear Ones, Our friend Doug has memorial book for Joe McQ's family. - - - - Dear friends, We have set up an online memorial book for you to sign for Joe's family at: http://www.aahistory.com It's hard to measure exactly how many thousands of people have been blessed with the knowledge of the big book as passed on by Joe and Charlie through their Big Book Studies in the last 30 years. Sincerely, Doug B. http://www.aahistory.com IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4661. . . . . . . . . . . . Joe McQ''s death of pneumonia From: DudleyDobinson@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/26/2007 9:34:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: Mike Custer (generalc at woh.rr.com) Cliff B has just informed me that his sponsor, Joe McQ, passed away today. He had been ill for quite some time as many of you probably know. He was taken in for pneumonia a couple of days ago, and did not recover from that. (Joe & Charlie tapes helped so many.) May the soul of that wonderful man rest in peace. I hope we ALL meet up with him one day in the Big Meeting in the sky. Peace and God bless Joe, and thank you for helping so many ... Love to you and yours, Mike C. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4662. . . . . . . . . . . . Joe McQ funeral Thursday, Nov. 1, 11:00 a.m. From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/27/2007 7:58:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Joe McQuany November 16, 1928 - October 25, 2007 From the Kelly Foundation website: http://www.kellyfdn.com/condolences_in_memory_of_joe_mcq.htm Wake and Viewing: Wednesday October 31, 9 A.M. - 9 P.M., at the Wolfe Street Center, 1210 Wolfe Street, Little Rock, AR 72202 Phone (501) 372-5662 http://www.wolfestreet.org/ Family Visitation: Wednesday October 31 at the Wolfe Street Center 6 P.M. - 7 P.M. The Funeral will be held on Thursday November 1, 2007 - 11 A.M. - Pulaski Heights United Methodist Church, 4823 Woodlawn Avenue, Little Rock, Arkansas 72205 http://www.phumc.com/where.htm IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4663. . . . . . . . . . . . Joe McQ and the Serenity Home for Women From: CBBB164@AOL.COM . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/26/2007 1:08:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Joe McQ's last project which he was working on at the end of his life was to get the Serenity Home for Women in Little Rock built and running. Photos of the construction up to this date at: http://serenitypark.org/dorm.htm The final work on the building will be finished as additional donations come in. This is what Joe was especially concerned about. See also: http://serenitypark.org/ For anyone visiting Little Rock who wants to see the home: Serenity Home 2801 W Roosevelt Little Rock, Arkansas 72204 (501) 663-7627 Again, for those who might wish to send condo- lences, Joe McQuany's wife Loubelle's address is: 3121 Spring Little Rock, AR 72206 In God's love and service, Cliff Bishop 214-350-1190 http://www.ppgaadallas.org/ IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4664. . . . . . . . . . . . Who was Joe McQ''s sponsor? From: Michael . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/30/2007 5:12:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I am curious, as I have looked and was never able to find, who Joe McQ's sponsor was. I am sure that Cliff B. can answer that Michael P. Phoenix, AZ crosshatchaz at hotmail IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4665. . . . . . . . . . . . Page XX of The Big Book From: flat412acrehouse . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/30/2007 9:08:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dearest Glenn I do hope that you are well. I have read with interest messages #3317,578 and 375 about Page XX, Foreword To Second Edition of The Big Book and I believe that my group have a further question to ask. Where it reads, "and among the remainder, those who stayed on with A.A. showed improve- ment." Our question is in what ways would the remainder have shown improvement? peace and kindness Leah - - - - Dear Leah, I am posting this up so that some of our experts can take a look at this question. Let me give the entire sentence from the Foreword to the Second Edition: "Of alcoholics who came to A.A. and really tried, 50% got sober at once and remained that way; 25% sobered up after relapses, and among the remainder, those who stayed on with A.A. showed improvement." That is a very interesting question that you are asking. Can anybody come up with any texts or documents from that period (not simply our guesses at to what the words might mean) that could shed any light on the nature of that "improvement"? Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4666. . . . . . . . . . . . AA Spiritual History PDF Online From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/30/2007 10:26:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Jay S.'s talk & images have been put up on this site. He hopes you enjoy this because it has been a labor of love for over 15 years. http://xa-speakers.org/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=2010 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4667. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr. Bob''s father From: dl_lundy . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/31/2007 7:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I would like to know more about Dr. Bob's father, the judge. Some time ago, I bought an old jury summons notice from St. Johnsbury, Vermont. I'd like to know about his career. Anybody have any info? Dave L. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4668. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Who was Joe McQ''s sponsor? From: CBBB164@AOL.COM . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/30/2007 7:58:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII His name was Charles C. The following is how Joe found him. This is a portion of the history of the founding of our BBS Group. (Charles C. and Charlie P. are not the same person. Charles, Joe's sponsor, passed away about 15 years ago and lived in Batesville, Arkansas. Charlie, the other half of the Joe & Charlie team, is still with us and lives in Maysville, Arkansas.) A resident of Little Rock, Arkansas found himself to be an alcoholic of the hopeless variety. His name was Joe and he tried every- thing he could to stop drinking for good and all. Every attempt failed. At the end of one of his drunks, he checked himself into the Insane Asylum in Benton, Arkansas to get another start. This was on March 10, 1962. He was smoking cigarettes at that period of his life and the only smoking material availa- ble to the inmates was tobacco in a bag and papers that came with it. They were called "roll your own" cigarettes as a smoker placed some tobacco in one of the thin sheets of paper, rolled it into the form of a cigarette, licked the loose side of the paper which then sealed the tobacco in and it was ready to be smoked. The "weed smokers" of today become very adept at that process. Of course, coming off a bad drunk, Joe's hands were pretty shaky so he had to give his tobacco and papers to one of the inmates who would roll it, lick it and hand it back to him to be smoked. As his mind cleared, the thought of putting that cigarette in his mouth became a little repulsive considering who had licked it. One day, he was sitting and doing nothing when another alcoholic who had checked himself in for the same reason as Joe asked Joe if he would like to go to a meeting on drinking. The guys who did the meeting brought in a thermos of fresh coffee and a carton of Camel cigar- ettes which were given to those who attended the meeting. Joe started to reject the invita- tion suspecting that the men who were coming would talk about the evils of drinking. He had heard enough of that but he reconsidered as he thought about the slobbers of the nuts who licked his "roll your own" so he agreed to go just to get a cup of fresh coffee and a package of "ready rolled" cigarettes. He was very surprised to learn the men were not there to talk on the evils of drinking. Rather they were there to tell their story of being victims of alcoholism and of the solution they had found in Alcoholics Anonymous. Joe had never heard of Alcoholics Anonymous and was very impressed with Charles' story. After the meeting was over Joe went up to Charles and said, "Man, I sure like what you said, but what do you think I ought to do?" Charles looked at Joe and said, "Fella, I just told you what I do. I don't give a damn what you do. That is your business but if you want this thing, I'll help you." So Joe was on his way. He had the willing- ness to do what was necessary to survive alco- holism. But it wasn't going to be easy for Joe as he wasn't very welcome at AA meetings in Little Rock. Remember, this was in 1962 in Little Rock, Arkansas, a community very resistant to social integration. The members of the AA group in Joe's neck of the woods let him attend meetings with the instructions that he was not to arrive early, stay late or drink their coffee. You see, Joe is an African American and as he said "Little Rock was no place for a black man to be looking for help in 1962." But Joe wanted what he had seen in Charles and was willing to pay the price. In God's love and service and very deep love and gratitude for Joe McQ. Cliff Bishop 214-350-1190 http://www.ppgaadallas.org/ IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4669. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Who was Joe McQ''s sponsor? From: Chris Budnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/31/2007 6:18:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There is a portrait at Serenity Park with a name plate that reads: "Charles Clark 1919 - 1993 Joe's Sponsor for 32 Years" - - - - From: "hartsell" (hartsell at etex.net) In years past, in the early 80's maybe, I asked him this question directly and Joe responded to me that he and Charlie P. (and perhaps Wayne P.) sponsored each other. Sherry c. h. Gilmer, TX IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4670. . . . . . . . . . . . Significant November Dates in A.A. History From: chesbayman56 . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/1/2007 6:46:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Nov 1934 - Ebby T. carries message to Bill. Nov 1936 - Fitz M leaves Towns Hospital to become 'AA #3 in NY', with Bill W and Hank P. Nov 1937 - Bill and Dr. Bob compare notes in Akron. Count forty cases staying sober. Meeting of the Akron Group to consider Bill's ideas for how to expand the movement ... a book, AA hospitals, paid missionaries. Passed by a majority of 2. Nov/Dec 1939 - Akron group withdrawals from association with Oxford Group. Meetings moved from T Henry & Clarence Williams to Dr Bob and other members homes. Nov 1941 - "First Mass AA Meeting" in Oklahoma City, 8 present, 1 was drunk. Nov 1945 - Bill's article called 'Those Goof Balls' published in Grapevine. Nov 1986 - Big Book published in paperback. Nov 1, 1947 - 1st AA Group in Anchorage, Alaska. Nov 1, 1963 - Reverend Sam Shoemaker dies. Nov 3, 2001 - J P Miller who wrote screenplay for "The Days of Wine and Roses" died. Nov 9, 1966 - President Johnson appoints Marty M to the 1st National Advisory Committee on Alcoholism. Nov 10, 1940 - 1st AA group formed in Minneapolis. Nov 10, 2001 - 1st of 400,000 4th Edition Big Books arrives in the mail. Nov 11, 1934 - Armistice Day; Bill started drinking after dry spell, beginning of Bill's last drunk. Nov 12, 1940 - 1st AA meeting is held in Boston. Nov 13, 1939 - Bill wants to go to work at Towns Hsp, NY drunks want him to stay on as head of the movement. Nov 14, 1940 - Alcoholic Foundation publishes 1st AA Bulletin. Nov 15, 1949 - Bill W suggests that groups devote Thanksgiving week to dicussions of the 12 Traditions. Nov 16, 1950 - Dr. Bob died. Nov 18, 1946 - 1st Dublin Ireland group met. Nov 21, 1939 - AA's in San Francisco hold 1st California AA meeting in the Clift Hotel. Nov 21, 1952 - Willard Richardson, past Treasurer/Chairman of Alcoholic Foundation, dies. Nov 26, 1895 - Bill W born in East Dorsett, VT. Nov 26, 1939 - Dilworth Lupton gave sermon "Mr. X and Alcoholics Anonymous". Became one of first pamphlets on AA. Nov 28, 1939 - Hank P writes Bill advocating autonomy for all AA groups. Nov 28, 1943 - Bill guest speaker San Quentin Penitentiary. (sometimes dated Dec 2, 1943) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4671. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr. Bob''s father From: Tom White . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/1/2007 10:45:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dear Dave L.: Mona S. and I (Tom W.) are writing (at slow speed) a book about Dr. Bob. All we have on his father is pretty much what AAWS's "Dr. Bob and the Good Old Timers" says and Ernie Kurtz has in his book, "Not God." There seems to me to be plenty of room for deeper investigation in Vermont archives if someone is intensely enough interested in finding out, but it would be a fairly expensive project, I guess, and I don't know how it could be made to pay for the effort. Tom - - - - From: Corey Franks (erb2b at yahoo.com) HI Read "Dr Bob and the Good Old Timers" or "Children of the Healer" (Smitty and Sue's book). Smitty and Sue told me more than once that they are the most accounts of the Smiths and their relatives. THX! Corey F. - - - - On Oct 31, 2007, at 6:13 PM, dl_lundy wrote: > I would like to know more about Dr. Bob's > father, the judge. Some time ago, I bought > an old jury summons notice from St. Johnsbury, > Vermont. > > I'd like to know about his career. Anybody > have any info? > > Dave L. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4672. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Date of AA''s founding From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/30/2007 12:09:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII H Bruce This is rather long reply to your brief message. There doesn't seem to be much use these days of the Yahoo search function to see what has been submitted in the past on a given topic. So this is basically a repeat of a past posting. If you care to do further research, you can review past submissions by going to the AAHL home page and entering the two search strings "june 17"and "dr bob" (with the quotation marks included -- text is not case sensitive). Any of the popular web search engines will also produce numerous references using the same search strings. - - - - There is no doubt in my mind that Dr Bob had his last drink on June 17, 1935 and not June 10, 1935. Mitchell K has an accurate narrative web posting titled "Dr Bob's Last Drink" that has been in the public domain for quite a while. It defines the sequence of events prior to, during and after the 1935 annual AMA (American Medical Association) meeting in Atlantic City, New Jersey, where Dr Bob went on his last binge. By coincidence, earlier this month I had an email exchange with Andrea Bainbridge of the AMA Archives (wonderful people) to obtain a color image of the cover of the American Medical Association meeting program (which is mustard yellow and green). I could not independently confirm a black and white image that has circulated on the web for years but can now confirm that it is accurate. The cover clearly states that the AMA annual meeting ran from June 10 to 14, 1935. It is not a typographical error. I also have 3 other corroborating references confirmed by the AMA Archives as genuine. Various fragments of information exist in AA literature (and elsewhere) that when formed into a timeline, make far more than a circum- stantial case for concluding that Dr Bob's sober date is June 17, 1935. In "AA Comes of Age" (pgs 70-71) Bill W writes "So he [Dr Bob] went to the Atlantic City Medical Convention and nothing was heard of him for several days." In "Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers" (pgs 72-75) it erroneously states that Dr Bob left for the AMA meeting (they say Convention) in May and that it started the first week in June. The book then states (with my redactions for brevity denoted with ellipses "..."): "Dr Bob ... began drinking ... as he boarded the train to Atlantic City. On his arrival he bought several quarts on his way to the hotel. That was Sunday night. He stayed sober on Monday until after dinner ... On Tuesday, Bob started drinking in the morning and ... [checked out of the hotel] ... He headed for the train depot buying more liquor en route ... The next thing he knew ... he was ...in the .. Cuyahoga Falls home of his office nurse and her husband ... The blackout was certainly more than 24 hours long because Bill and Anne had waited for five days from the time Bob left before they heard from the nurse .. She had picked him up that morning at the Akron railroad station ... As Bill and Sue [Dr Bob's daughter] remembered there was a three-day sobering up period ... Upon Dr Bob's return, they had discovered that he was due to perform surgery three days later ... At 4 o'clock on the morning of the operation [Dr Bob] ... said 'I am going through with this ...' On the way to City Hospital ... Bill ... gave him a beer ..." In the video "Bill's Own Story" Bill W says he gave Dr Bob a beer and a goofball [a barbiturate] the morning of the surgery. The same information is repeated in "Pass It On" (pgs 147-149). See also "Not God" (pgs 32-33). Estimate of timeline based on the preceding fragments: On Sunday June 9, 1935 Dr Bob started drinking on the train to Atlantic City, New Jersey. After arriving he bought several quarts and checked into a hotel. On Monday June 10, 1935 Dr Bob stayed sober until after dinner then went back to drinking. On Tuesday June 11, 1935 Dr Bob started drinking in the morning and later checked out of the hotel (don't know how long "later" was). On Wednesday June 12, 1935 Dr Bob was in a blackout (likely greater than 24 hours). On Thursday June 13, 1935 Dr Bob's blackout continues (he may possibly have arrived back at the Akron train station). On Friday June 14, 1935 Dr Bob was picked up by his office nurse in the morning at the train station. Then he was picked up by Bill W who claims it occurred 5 days after Dr Bob left for Akron. Bill W assisted Dr Bob through a 3-day sobering up period to get ready for a scheduled surgery. This would be Friday June 14 (day 1), Saturday June 15 (day 2) and Sunday June 16, 1935 (day 3). On Monday June 17, 1935 Bill W gave Dr Bob a beer and a goofball (a barbiturate) outside Akron City Hospital to steady him. That was Dr Bob's last drink. I'm not sure what the beloved AA Fellowship will eventually do to try to address this matter. If microfiche, or other type, records are available from Akron City Hospital for 1935, the matter can be conclusively settled by finding out the date Dr Bob performed the surgery in June 1935. The question might arise of how in the world can "Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers" be so wrong about Dr Bob's dry date and the AMA meeting? Better investigative research and editing would certainly have helped, but from what I can gather, the co-founders and early pioneer- ing members of AA were not all that fascinated with their dry date or length of dry time as many in AA are today. They were very much into a "24-hour" orientation and took it quite seriously. Also, Ernie Kurtz mentions in "Not God" that Bill W had some difficulties in accurately remembering dates. - - - - A little more closer to home for me, and it might help illustrate the challenge, it has been the prevailing notion that AA started in Texas first in Houston then Dallas then Fort Worth. Irrefutable evidence has been discovered to show that AA started in Fort Worth some 2 years prior to it starting in Dallas. This illustrates to me that one of the difficult aspects of compiling an accurate AA history for a given locale or incident is the scarcity of corroborating written material from the time period and for the event being reported on. AA seems so dependent on a verbal tradition to define its history based on anecdotal or old-timer testimonial information, that it leads to the propagation of a great deal of myth instead of an accurate recording of AA historical facts. This is not stated as a pejorative or an assertion that anyone is deliberately trying to be deceptive or dishonest. Actually it is probably done in all innocence. But human memory does not generally improve over time and just because someone has been sober for a long period of time it does not mean that their "duration of dry time" is the same thing as their "degree of accuracy." All too often old-timers (and God bless them they are so precious to the Fellowship) very sincerely and honestly pass on information that they believe to be true but later turns out to not be factual (typically something verbally passed on them that has been verbally passed on to the previous person, etc., etc.). It's a variation of the parlor game where someone whispers a sentence into someone's ear, who in turn whispers it in the next person's ear and on and on for several people. It's almost guaranteed that the sentence one ends up with is going to be at variance with the sentence that one started with. Cheers Arthur - - - - Moderator's summary of Arthur's time line: Sunday, June 9 train trip from Akron to Atlantic City, started drinking on the train, checked into the hotel there Monday, June 10 [first day of the AMA Convention], stayed sober until dinner, but started drinking again after dinner Tuesday, June 11 started drinking in the morning, no clear memory of anything until three days later (Friday morning) Wednesday, June 12 Thursday, June 13 Friday, June 14 [last day of the AMA Convention] Dr. Bob had made it back to Akron, and was picked up by his office nurse at the train station that morning. Sobering up Day 1 Saturday, June 15 Sobering up Day 2 Sunday, June 16 Sobering up Day 3 Monday, June 17 Dr. Bob has his last drink that morning, and then performs the surgery at Akron City Hospital - - - - Original message from: bruceken@aol.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Date of AA's founding Five years ago, I wrote the email below to the Archivist at the American Medical Association and received his answer. This means that the accepted date of the founding of AA is probably a week off -- or the 17th rather than the 10th of June. Bruce K. San Francisco, CA - - - - "Bruce K." 09/27/02 02:43PM I am trying to find the exact dates and location of the 1935 AMA Convention can you help me? Bruce K. San Francisco, CA - - - - I received this response: The exact dates for the 1935 AMA annual convention are as follows: June 10-14, 1935 at Atlantic City, New Jersey. Robert Tenuta Reference Archivist Records Management and Archives 515 North State Street Chicago, IL. 60610 Robert_Tenuta@ama-assn.org Phone: 312-464-4083 Fax: 312-464-5826 To discover the illustrious history of the AMA, visit www.ama-assn.org/go/history IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4673. . . . . . . . . . . . Why the term, "Real Alcoholic"? From: tonischolz . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/30/2007 4:43:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I've been trying to find some documentation on why Bill used the term, "real alcoholic" so many times throughout the book, but especi- ally in Chapter 3, More About Alcoholism. There are lots of individual theories and I'm sure that there is some validity to many of them, but I've not been successful in finding any drafts related to this particular phrase. Thank you for your help. - - - - From Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) See Marty Mann, "Primer on Alcoholism" (New York: Rinehart & Company, 1950; London: Victor Gollancz, 1950) Marty Mann, "Marty Mann’s New Primer on Alcoholism: How people drink, how to recognize alcoholics, and what to do about them" (New York: Holt, Rinehart and Winston, 1958). The fundamental distinction that early AA people learned that they had to make, was between (1) People who drank way too much (of whom there were many, especially at certain social levels and in certain professions), but were not actually alcoholics. (2) The kind of people whom AA was created to deal with, the "real alcoholics" as the Big Book calls them. Some of the people in group 1 may have regularly drunk more than some of the people in group 2 -- quantity of alcohol consumed was not the distinguishing feature. There were various kinds of tests used to see which group a particular person did fall into, but basically people in group 1 could use their will power, if they really wanted to, and either strictly moderate their drinking (two drinks every evening, no more, no less, for a specified number of months) or stop drinking entirely for years. The kind of drinkers whom AA was designed for (group 2) simply could not, on the basis of their own will power alone, either stop or moderate their drinking for very long before they had another episode of out-of- control drinking. Mrs. Marty Mann had done her drinking in social circles (high society, artists, novelists, and so on) where people often got outrageously drunk at parties. Yet unlike Marty, they knew how to stop when they actually needed to, and they knew how to stay out of serious trouble. She finally had to admit, after she had ended up in an insane asylum, that she was a "real alcoholic" and they were not. She could not drink like they did and get away with it. She had no choice but AA and total abstinence. Bill W. had had to come to the same conclusion: he could not drink like some of the other people did who were involved in the New York stock market, because there were some heavy drinkers in the New York City business world in those days (multiple martini lunches and so on) who nevertheless were not chronic alcoholics. The current DSM-IV (the standard for diagnosis in psychiatry and psychology in the United States today) makes a similar distinction, which just about has to be made: (1) "Alcohol abuse" is defined as repeated use despite recurrent adverse consequences. (2) "Alcohol dependence" is defined as alcohol abuse combined with tolerance, withdrawal, and an uncontrollable drive to drink. Just like in the oldfashioned definition from Bill W. and Marty Mann's day, it is the "uncontrollable drive to drink" -- the total inability to quit on one's own, simply by using will power and reason, no matter how hard one tries -- which distinguishes the "real alcoholic," the person who is "chemically dependent" on alcohol as the psychiatrists and psychologists say today. This is the kind of person who will have to go to AA to have any possible chance of getting sober and staying sober. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4674. . . . . . . . . . . . Another Bill Wilson video on the internet From: Bob S. . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/1/2007 1:31:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII http://www.youtube.com/v/E2OFMrzO9Ck&rel=1 The U-Tube site above starts off with Bill and Lois Wilson discussing before and when Bill got sober (about 10 minutes), this is followed by five or six other historical talks by Bill, including lots of interesting AA pictures. Bob S IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4675. . . . . . . . . . . . Joe McQ. tribute: Arkansas Democrat Gazette From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/4/2007 9:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII An editorial tribute to Joe McQ. in the state- wide newspaper, the Arkansas Democrat Gazette, November 2, 2007. EDITORIALS The word from Joe 'It's gonna be okay' LIFE IS STRANGE. That's not an original obser- vation, since life keeps demonstrating just how strange it is. Consider the life and saving times of Joseph Daniel McQuany, 1928-2007. Mr. McQuany, who became much better known as just Joe around Little Rock, was one of the most successful people we've ever heard of. Joe touched, indeed transformed, the lives of who knows how many tens of thousands in his city, state, country and beyond. He started an enterprise on a shoestring or less -- a $330 grant and some charitable donations -- that grew into a publishing company, traveling mission, growing institution, and, most important, a blessing. The secret of his success? "If I hadn't been an alcoholic," he confided to one of the many groups he addressed, "I probably would have amounted to nothing." And all because one day back in 1962, Joe McQuany decided he'd get sober. In those days, he'd recall, white men trying to get on the wagon could find a treatment program, black men were sent to the State Hospital -- aka the Nut House in the patois of the times -- and as for women alcoholics, the only place for them was jail. Once detoxed, Joe McQuany knew he'd have to find some way to stay sober. His way was Alcoholics Anonymous, even though, in 1962, as a black man he would be left out of the social bonding that's such an important if informal part of its program. No matter. He had the Twelve Steps, AA's version of the Ten Commandments, and the Big Book. A testament and a faith. What more does a natural leader need? Build on it and the people will come. Soon the man was organizing AA groups himself. He was a whiz at it. Not only because he'd been there and knew the cravings and excuses, the real desperation and false exhilaration of it all, but maybe because to save himself he had to save others. JOE McQUANY wound up founding an offshoot of AA himself. He called his program Serenity House before it had a house -- an old one on Broadway in Little Rock. As his program grew, he moved it to larger and larger quarters. Serenity House became Serenity Park -- an extended-care sanctuary for all, black or white, penniless or professional, who needed to get that monkey off their back. You might be surprised at the nice, outwardly successful people who are chemically dependent slaves. Then again, if you've had much experience of the world, you probably wouldn't be. Mainly people came to Serenity House not because of the books Joe McQuany would write, or lectures he would give, or the programs he devised, but because of Joe himself. To quote one of his coworkers and admirers -- but we repeat ourselves -- his soft, unjudging brown eyes would connect with the souls of others. Joe seemed to look past all the superfici- alities that separate us from one another and see within the whole creature, sinner man. You may have met people like Joe on rare occasion -- if you've been fortunate. They've got something special about them, a kind of almost palpable aura. And you never forget them. They're always there for you; they're always there for everybody. The short word for them may be saints. The man never tired, not even during his last, four-year struggle with Parkinson's, and he never stopped dreaming. His last great dream was a treatment center for women. When the ground was broken for that project two years ago, and folks asked where the money was coming from to finish it, Joe told the paper: "I had $300 [when I started]. People said, 'How are you gonna do it?' I said, 'I don't know,' and I stepped out. I've always stepped out into things, and people have always helped me." They did again. Construction was completed a few weeks ago, and Joe was there to admire the finished work. It was another of his dreams achieved. He didn't seem surprised. Sitting on a patio overlooking the new building just days before he went into the hospital for the last time, Joe McQuany kicked back and observed, "It's gonna be okay." JOE McQUANY could have been talking about a lot more than a building; he could have been summing up the message he'd brought to so many, whatever their station in life, who were poor in spirit. Then they would read one of his books, or leave one of his lectures renewed and resolved, or check out of Serenity House rich in hope and determination. That might've been all they had, but they knew it was going to be enough, it was gonna be okay. A short word for that attitude is faith. Joe taught folks faith, or rather he would let them come to it. Much as someone might point out the quality of the light on a beautiful fall day, or a harvest moon shining above, or the grace all around us. When it came to knowing how to live a full life free and unhindered, Joe McQuany was his own best example. At his death last week, condolences poured in from all over, including nearly every state in the Union and 10 foreign countries at last count. His obituary noted that Joseph Daniel McQuany left behind his wife of 48 years, Loubelle, numerous family (including 12 greatgrandchildren), and "friends around the world." Many of those friends have the best of reasons to be grateful for Joe: a life of their own -- rather than one dictated by the current addiction. Joe always lived simply. He was interested in a richer life: helping others. Reading this today may be someone out there who is heavy-burdened, convinced that if it weren't for the particular chemical cross he has to bear, he'd live fully, do great things, amount to something. In 1962 Joe McQuany found himself in that spot, desperate over his weakness, and proceeded to . . . turn it into a strength. So can you, Troubled Reader. "If I hadn't been an alcoholic, I probably would have amounted to nothing." ______________________________ This newspaper editorial was passed on to me by John Barleycorn, who writes the AA column in the Waynedale News ( http://hindsfoot.org/essays.html ). John was sent this copy by Sherrel J. of El Dorado, Arkansas, whom he met when he went to Little Rock for Joe's funeral. Sherrel told John: "I stopped by Serenity Park before I left Little Rock, and got to wander around the Women's facility. It's a cheerful facility -- open and full of natural light. Workers are putting the finishing touches on construc- tion, and the project manager said Joe got to see everything but the furniture before he went into the hospital. She visited him every day at the hospital, and each morning while he still could he would ask her, with that Joe twinkle in his eye 'Have you moved in yet?' The manager is one of five steering committee members who made the decision a couple of years ago to borrow the $2 million and move forward with the facility. She said she thinks they still owe $1 million or so, but are hoping that memorial contributions at Joe's funeral may take a little off of that." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4676. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Why the term, "Real Alcoholic"? From: David Johnson . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/4/2007 11:15:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Bill talks about the different kinds of drinkers in chapter 2, "There is a Solution." On pages 20-21: - - - - Moderate drinkers have little trouble in giving up liquor entirely if they have good reason for it. They can take it or leave it alone. Then we have a certain type of hard drinker. He may have the habit badly enough to gradually impair him physically and mentally. It may cause him to die a few years before his time. If a sufficiently strong reason - ill health, falling in love, change of environment, or the warning of a doctor - becomes operative, this man can also stop or moderate, although he may find it difficult and troublesome and may even need medical attention. But what about the real alcoholic? He may start off as a moderate drinker; he may or may not become a continuous hard drinker; but at some stage of his drinking career he begins to lose all control of his liquor consumption, once he starts to drink. - - - - Howard Moss, MD, who is the associate director for clinical and translational research at the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Addiction(NIAAA) reported there are 5 types of alcoholics, in an article just published this June, 2007 in the journal Drug and Alcohol Dependence. They are as follows: 1. The young adult subtype accounts for about 32% of U.S. alcoholics. They're young adults who rarely seek help for alcohol dependence. About 24 years old, they became alcoholics by age 20, on average. They drink less frequently than other alcoholics, but they tend to binge drink when they drink. This is the largest subtype. 2. The young antisocial subtype comprises 21% of U.S. alcoholics. They are 26 years old, on average. More than half have antisocial personality disorder. They tended to start drinking at 15 and became alcoholics by 18 -- earlier than other subtypes. They are more likely to smoke tobacco and pot. The young antisocial subtype and the young adult subtype don't overlap, Moss tells WebMD. 3. The functional subtype accounts for about 19% of U.S. alcoholics. They're generally middle-aged, working adults who tend to have stable relationships, more education, and higher incomes than other alcoholics. They tend to drink every other day, often consuming five or more drinks on drinking days. 4. The intermediate familial subtype makes up nearly 19% of U.S. alcoholics. Nearly half have close relatives who are alcoholics. Alcoholics in this subtype typically began drinking by 17 and became alcoholics in their early 30s. 5. The chronic severe subtype is the rarest subtype, accounting for about 9% of U.S. alcoholics. This subtype mainly includes men, has the highest divorce rate, and frequently includes users of illicit drugs. - - - - As I do more research on alcoholism treatment and the science behind understanding alcoholism, I am struck by how prescient Bill was in his description of alcoholics and the disease of alcoholism and how careful he was not to get too explicit in areas which still eluded his understanding. P. 22: "Opinions vary considerably as to why the alcoholic reacts differently from normal people. We are not sure why, once a certain point is reached, little can be done for him. We cannot answer the riddle." This refusal to assert all knowledge in all areas alcoholic combined with his clear and compelling descriptions of what these "first 100" knew, has served AA quite well, over the years. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4677. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Why the term, "Real Alcoholic"? From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/6/2007 4:07:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Indeed. Refer also to Jellinek's taxonomy: gamma alcoholics etc. Laurie A. - - - - From the moderator: there is a good brief discussion of Jellinek's classification system in Jane S., Q & A: Alcoholism and Sobriety http://hindsfoot.org/kqa1.html (pages 8-9) Fifty years ago, Elvin Jellinek, working with the Yale Laboratory of Applied Physiology and the Yale Summer School of Alcohol Studies, set out his classification of alcoholics. He called them alpha-alcoholics, beta-alcoholics, gamma-alcoholics, delta- alcoholics, and epsilon-alcoholics, each having some different sets of characteristics. “Alpha” alcoholism is a purely psychological continual reliance upon the effect of alcohol to relieve bodily or emotional pain. It is not progressive and has no withdrawal symptoms. “Beta” alcoholism is alcohol consumption leading to alcohol-related medical disorders, with neither physical nor psychological dependence, and no withdrawal symptoms. “Gamma” alcoholism leads to “(1) acquired increased tissue tolerance to alcohol, (2) adaptive cell mechanism, (3) withdrawal symptoms and ‘craving,’ i.e., physical dependence, and (4) loss of control.” This is the progressive fatal disease we usually think of as alcoholism — our Alcoholism-1 — and it’s the alcoholism of the Jellinek curve. “Delta” alcoholism is pretty much the same as “gamma” alcoholism, but with inability to abstain in place of loss of control as the fourth symptom: it is also progressive. “Epsilon” alcoholism involves periodic bouts of drinking which can cause serious damage — sometimes called binge drinking There has been a lot of recent attention paid to the “binge” version of “epsilon” alcoholism and what it includes. There has been argument about Jellinek’s classifications and all classifications — but they suggest that those who have looked at the evidence do find different kinds of alcoholics, with different progressions of the “disease.” IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4678. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Re: Why the term, "Real Alcoholic"? From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/6/2007 1:24:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I don't know if men are still reading the chapter "To Wives" these days but Bill's most extensive narrative on various types of drinkers appears to be that related to the different husbands discussed in the chapter. It might also be useful to mention that Howard Moss' "subtypes of alcoholics" appeared in the October Grapevine with the reintroduction of "scientific and academic" material from those who make careers out of alcoholism as opposed to experi- encing it. I stand in amazement of how the experts in the "publish or perish" environment persist in attempting to classify alcoholism and alcoholics as a function of how much one drinks and/or the methodology of one's drinking. There was a time (I hope I am not too Neanderthal in clinging to it) when alcoholism was not viewed as a function of how much or how often one drank but as function of what the consequences were of one's drinking. Like for instance one's life becoming unmanageable or something like that (irrespective of one's age, gender or other demographics). Rule #62 and cheers Arthur IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4679. . . . . . . . . . . . When did pictures of Bill & Bob start to be hung up? From: lambchopp@gmail.com> . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/6/2007 8:06:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII My sponsor and I were talking about how we see those large pictures of Bill W and Dr Bob hung up at conferences and even in some meeting halls. We wanted to know if that practice began after the deaths of Bill and Bob or while they were still with us. Thanks Bill L Antioch IL IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4680. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: When did pictures of Bill & Bob start to be hung up? From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/7/2007 2:48:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Bill, I think the practice of hanging up the co-founders' pictures grew over the years but probably really took off after Bill W. died in 1971. I recall seeing Bill W's photo in a club in Omaha in 1950, the same year Dr. Bob died. Bill would have discouraged this sort of thing, just as he didn't want groups and other things named after him. Mel Barger melb@accesstoledo.com (melb at accesstoledo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4681. . . . . . . . . . . . Tom I. very ill; Tom T. (62 years sober) has passed away From: Mike B. . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/5/2007 9:29:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Our good friend, Tom I. of Aberdeen, NC, needs our prayers. Here's a message I received from a friend last evening: < (diz49 at embarqmail.com) Dick Thompson, formerly of Comer, Georgia, died last week at the age of 95 with 62 years of continuous sobriety. He lived in Comer until his health got bad and had to move to the Tampa/St. Pete area where he had relatives to care for him. He was well known in the Northeast Georgia area. In Service, Theresa L. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4682. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Another Bill Wilson video on the internet From: ricktompkins . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/4/2007 3:54:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Within current US Copyright law, anything under 10% from any protected work can be excerpted, which is how snippets of AAWS films can be legally shown on UTube, MySpace, or any of the new Internet sites. The 'poster' would be uploading from these clips from purchased AAWS films and there is nothing anyone can do about it... My concerns for anonymity on AAWS items that are specifically listed as "for AAs only" are trumped by the discomfort that the entire film-length continuity is lost. On these film clip postings, the accompanying UTube comments can be pretty terrible, too. Do I want to see 'related' amateur clips and read an "AA Ass Cheeseburger's" input? Not really, but how might this stuff affect a newcomer or AA prospect? It's better for me to spend the $15 or $20 for a VHS or CD and share the AAWS films "live" with other AAs instead of incomplete world-wide-web coverage. To quote a nationally known Fellowship comic, "I'm not judging, I'm just seein.' " Rick, Illinois - - - - From: "Bob S." If you now open this webpage, a notice appears: “We are sorry, this video is no longer available.” Bob S. - - - - From the moderator: Lest anyone in the group get into trouble, no, you can't go through taking 10% from this piece and 10% from that piece, without it being a copyright violation. Back around 1984, Kinko's Copying had been doing this for college professors all across the U.S., for their students to use, and lost a very expensive lawsuit placed against them by some book publishers. If I'm writing a literary analysis of a poem, I can quote up to 10% (in theory), a line here and a couple of lines there, to illustrate the points I am making, or to let the reader know what the exact wording is which I am attempting to interpret. But even if this is what you're doing, my advice is to consult a qualified copyright attorney before you lift too much from a copyrighted work. The appellate law governing copyright protection in the U.S. is hideously complex, and only a competent attorney who has this as his or her major specialty is really qualified to give much in the way of a useful judgment. AA World Services has given blanket approval for AA groups and intergroups to copy out small amounts from the Big Book and 12 + 12 (and so on) for use in intergroup newsletters and things like that, which are (a) not being sold for a profit and (b) are only being used within the AA groups (as opposed to things that are distributed or displayed in the general public media). So you don't need to ask New York for permission to put a paragraph from the Big Book in your intergroup newsletter. But if you try printing and distributing 36 pages from the Twenty-Four Hour book, Hazelden's lawyers will be on you like a flash, and you WILL be found guilty of copyright violation, even if it's only 10% of the book. Trust me on that one! I had negotiations with them about quoting much, much less than that in my book on "The Higher Power of the Twelve Step Program." (We finally made a deal, I put the Hazelden book order telephone number in my book in several places, and they let me keep all the excerpts I had made -- which by the way seemed to me to be quite fair, because I was quoting from the book in order to try to get more people to use that meditational book.) Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4683. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Who was Joe McQ''s sponsor? From: hartsell . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/4/2007 1:24:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Thank you Chris, it has been a while but for several years while we were living in Magnolia and then in Nashville, Ark, Joe & I and our wives were fairly close. An East Texas friend asked me to help get the Speakers for the Tyler, Texas Anniversary in '77 I think, I was buying oil & gas leases up in North Dakota that fall and Winter, called Joe from up there to invite him and he turned me down because as he said "Sherry, don't you know they got the KLAN in Tyler!" so I called my wife Beverly back in Nashville, Arkansas, and got her to call Lou Belle and convince her, then I called Joe back again and after agreeing that he could bring a car-load of the boys from Serenity House and my wife Beverly & I agreeing to stay with him and Lou Belle, Joe finally agreed to come speak in Tyler that year. I had Charley P. come down to introduce him (Not do their Big Book Talks, Joe shared his story) ---they had just begun doing their talks together the year before. I believe Joe claimed that was the first time he had spoken outside Arkansas---that gathering was attended by probably over a thousand, maybe 1500 or more ----a much wider audience than had ever heard him before & he was soon booked well into the future. I know Joe will be missed, is missed by this old boy whose sobriety and life have been and continue to be richly blessed by his having passed my way. I had also invited Jim from the Glass House in Fort Worth who came and made a great talk, a memorable gathering in Tyler, Texas that very snowy winter of 1977. Sherry c.h. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4684. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Tom I. (doing better) From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/8/2007 4:22:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: KentEDavis@aol.com (KentEDavis at aol.com) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 16:19 EST Tom is doing quite well, he has a slight TIA (Transient Ischemic Attack) but was only hospitalized briefly. It was originally thought to be an aneurysm, but was later ruled out. Kent IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4685. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill Pittman has just died From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/10/2007 2:46:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Bill Pittman was found dead of a heart attack yesterday (Friday) in his home near Hazelden. Arrangements are pending. Corey F. and Charlie Bishop, Jr. gave us the sad news today. There is no obituary or notice in the newspaper yet. We will post more when we have more information. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4686. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Why the term, "Real Alcoholic"? From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/9/2007 7:19:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII See also Doctor's Opinion, Big Book, viz: "The classification of alcoholics seems most difficult..." which doesn't stop him trying! Dr Silkworth identifies five types. Laurie A. - - - - (Big Book 4th ed. page xxx) "The classifica- tion of alcoholics seems most difficult, and in much detail is outside the scope of this book. There are, of course, the psychopaths who are emotionally unstable. We are all familiar with this type. They are always "going on the wagon for keeps." They are over-remorseful and make many resolutions, but never a decision. There is the type of man who is unwilling to admit that he cannot take a drink. He plans various ways of drinking. He changes his brand or his environment. There is the type who always believes that after being entirely free from alcohol for a period of time he can take a drink without danger. There is the manic-depressive type, who is, perhaps, the least understood by his friends, and about whom an entire chapter could be written. Then there are types entirely normal in every respect except in the effect alcohol has upon them. They are often able, intelligent, friendly people. All these, and many others, have one symptom in common: they cannot start drinking without developing the phenomenon of craving .... Much has been written pro and con, but among physicians, the general opinion seems to be that most chronic alcoholics are doomed." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4687. . . . . . . . . . . . Update on Tom I. From: Mike B. . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/9/2007 9:53:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From a friend in Atlanta: Tom had a stroke last week. They took a cat scan, and thought that they could see an aneurysm, so the early report was he had slight bleeding in his brain. Several cats later they confirmed no aneurysm. Tom's heart doctor had put him on Coumadin some months ago, He went to an orthopod for pain in his knee and was put on Celebrex. Not a good combination. The most likely situation was a Transient Ischemic Attack (TIA). It is a small stroke, where a small vessel gets clogged and a part of the brain doesn't receive blood for a period of time. I have spoken with Tom several times this week, he seems to be doing well, though set back a bit, he plans on keeping his travel schedule if the doctors and Fern will let him. He did cancel Florida this weekend, and Iceland next week. During my last conversation with him this evening, he's as feisty as ever. Keep him in your prayers. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4688. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill Pittman: AA historian, author, and publisher From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/10/2007 4:18:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Bill Pittman William Pittman died November 9, 2007, at his home in Minnesota of an apparent heart attack. He was selling his home there and when he failed to show up for the closing Friday, police were called to check and found him. Bill Pittman, 60, for the past 28 years was an historian, author, and publisher of numerous books about A.A., recovery and alcoholism and worked tirelessly in that field. Pittman was an loyal advocate of Alcoholics Anonymous and The Twelve Step community. Bill had worked for the AA Grapevine, the Fellowship’s monthly magazine, and the A.A. Archives for five years in New York City. After that he helped to found Glen Abbey Books in Seattle, Washington, which published books about recovery from alcoholism. Then Bill moved to Minnesota where he founded the Hazelden-Pittman Archives Press and was instrumental in the publication of many books about A.A. pioneers. He was a key employee of the Hazelden Foundation for about ten years. Several years ago he left Hazelden "to go fishing" as his friend Charlie Bishop, Jr., of Wheeling, WV, recalled. He was co-author with Bishop of "To Be Continued … The Alcoholics Anonymous World Bibliography 1935-1994" in two editions. Among the many other books Pittman wrote are: Leonard Blumber with Bill Pittman, "Beware the First Drink! The Washingtonian Temperance Movement and Alcoholics Anonymous" (Seattle, Washington: Glen Abbey Books, 1991). Bill Pittman, "AA The Way It Began," (Seattle, Washington: Glen Abbey Books, 1988; reissued eleven years later as "The Roots of Alcoholics Anonymous" (Center City, Minnesota: Hazelden, 1999). Bill Pittman, "Stepping Stones to Recovery," (Seattle, Washington: Glen Abbey Books, 1988. Bill Pittman and Todd Weber, "Drop the Rock: Removing Character Defects," (Seattle, Washington: Glen Abbey Books, 1993. Among the many books by other authors which he published through the Hazelden-Pittman Archives Press were: "Women Pioneers in 12 Step Recovery," by Charlotte Hunter, Billye Jones, and Joan Zieger, 1999. "Key Principles of Successful Recovery: The Basic Tools for Progress, Growth, and Happi- ness," by Mel B. and Bill P., 1999. Robert Fitzgerald, S.J., "The Soul of Sponsor- ship: The Friendship of Fr. Ed Dowling, S.J., and Bill Wilson in Letters," 1995. Funeral arrangements are being worked out. His sister and brother-in-law will be phoning in an obituary to the Pioneer Press and the Star Tribune, two Minnesota newspapers in the Minneapolis/Center City/Edina area tomorrow morning. From Charlie Bishop, Jr. (bishopbk at comcast.net) - - - - Bill's book "AA The Way It Began," later retitled "The Roots of Alcoholics Anonymous," started out as a thesis he wrote for his B.S. degree in Alcohol Studies and Alcoholism Counseling at the University of Minnesota (June 1983), entitled "Alternative Explana- tions for the Beginnings of Alcoholics Anonymous, 1934-1939." He was around 36 at the time. This was at the beginning of his career as an author (and later publisher) of books on AA history. Nell Wing and Ernest Kurtz both helped Bill in the revision of this thesis as he was turning it into a book. There would have been no way that a great number of major books on AA history could have gotten published -- and none of us would even have known about these discoveries, and the fascinating material they uncovered -- without Bill's efforts. G.C. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4689. . . . . . . . . . . . One-time vice president of the American Atheist Society From: dl_lundy . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/11/2007 12:53:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This question was asked here before, by someone else in 2005, but never received an answer. I would like to find out if anyone knows whether the "one-time Vice President of the American Atheist Society" mentioned in the 12 & 12 was an actual AA, who in fact held the position of vice president in a group officially called the American Atheist Society? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4690. . . . . . . . . . . . Easy E.''s 65th AA B''day From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/11/2007 9:20:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII 65 CONTINUOUS YEARS ON NOVEMBER 15TH, 2007!! EASY E. HAS MORE SOBRIETY THAN ANY OTHER LIVING PERSON IN OUR FELLOWSHIP. WOULDN'T IT BE WONDERFUL IF HE RECEIVED CARDS FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD! AND IF YOU HAPPEN TO BE IN TOWN ON THURSDAY, WE WOULD LOVE TO HAVE YOU DROP IN FOR A HUG!! UNTIL THEN, PATTY donaldmdietz@gmail.com wrote: Easy E. will celebrating his 65th sobriety birthday on Thursday, November 15th, 2007. He will take his chip at the end of the regular 6:00 p.m. meeting at Happy Hour group on this Thursday. Everyone is invited. Ben is also encouraging everyone to send him a birthday card via snail mail to the following address: Easy Edney 6318 Willow Glen Drive Montgomery, AL 36117 Ben says that a card will be particularly cher- ished, as Easy will be able to go back and read them over and over, whereas he may have diffi- culty remembering all the well-wishers he will see at the chip celebration. Thanks, Don D. "Together we can do...what we cannot do apart" "Juntos podemos hacer. ..que nosotros no podemos hacer aparte" "Don't take life too seriously...nobody gets out alive anyway." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4691. . . . . . . . . . . . Oldtimers Gratitude Sunday, Akron OH, 11/18/07 From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/11/2007 8:22:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Old Timers Gratitude Sunday at Dr. Bob’s Home 855 Ardmore Avenue Akron, OH 44302 330-864-1935 November 18, 2007 1:00PM – 4:00PM Steve P. from Mentor OH (61 years) Mel B. from Toledo OH (57 years) Cecil from Akron OH (51 years) Chief Blackhawk from Detroit MI (50 years) Marty M. from Pittsburgh PA (50 years) Bill W. from Cleveland OH (47 years) Don C. from Cleveland OH (46 years) Dick S. from Pittsburgh PA (46 years) Keith H. from Welland Ont. Canada (42 years) Morris M. from Pittsburgh PA (41 years) Cliff H. from Stoney Creek Ont. Canada (40 years) Eleven old timers with a total of 538 years of sobriety share their message. There will be coffee & food. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4692. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: One-time vice president of the American Atheist Society From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/11/2007 10:39:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I've always been a bit suspicious of that item about the V.P. of the American Atheist Society. There is such an American Atheist society, but it claims to have been founded in 1963, or eleven years after the "12 & 12" was published. Mel Barger melb@accesstoledo.com (melb at accesstoledo.com) For more on the group called the "American Atheists" see their website at: http://www.atheists.org/ - - - - Twelve Steps & Twelve Traditions (copyright 1952, 1953), Step Two "At this juncture, his A.A, sponsor usually laughs. This, the newcomer thinks, is just about the last straw. This is the beginning of the end. And so it is: the beginning of the end of his old life, and the beginning of his emergence into a new one. His sponsor probably says, 'Take it easy. The hoop you have to jump through is a lot wider than you think. At least I've found it so. So did a friend of mine who was a one-time vice-president of the American Atheist Society, but he got through with room to spare.'" - - - - From: "Mike" (tuswecaoyate at yahoo.com) I always read that statement to be Bill Wilson's figurative way of saying the indivi- dual referred to was a REAL atheist, and assumed it to be a reference to probably Jim B., whose story is "The Vicious Cycle." Mike - - - - From: Glenn Chesnut (glennccc at sbcglobal.net) If the reference was figurative in this sense, it could also have been a reference just maybe to Richmond Walker. This is stretching it a little more, because we don't know about Rich's own beliefs, just that he couldn't get sober until the death (in 1942) of his father, Joseph Walker, a very well known American atheist. One of the most notorious atheistic documents of the 1930's was the HUMANIST MANIFESTO published in the May/June 1933 issue of The New Humanist (VI:3:1-5). One of the thirty-four well known figures who signed this manifesto was Joseph Walker, who a year earlier had published a book entitled "Humanism As a Way of Life." This Joseph Walker was the father of Richmond Walker, as I mentioned, the second most published AA author, who got sober in Boston in May 1942 -- Rich made the decision to attend AA and get sobered up while he was at his father Joseph's funeral. By 1948, Rich had come to a rich and deep understanding of God, and published the meditational book "Twenty-Four Hours a Day" under the sponsorship of the Daytona Beach AA group in Florida. According to his son, their family spent the warmer months at a beachfront house in Cohasset, Massachusetts, not far from Boston, and the cold months in a house on the beach in Daytona Beach. The son says that Rich did not like cold weather and used to ask plaintively quite early in the Fall, "Do we HAVE to wait until after Thanksgiving to go down to Florida?" Rich died on March 25, 1965, at the age of 72, with 22 years of sobriety. His son and daughter told me that he went out and spent the day on the beach, talking with his friends and enjoying himself -- his whole time was being spent in AA work of one kind or another by that point in his life -- came back home and went to bed, and when they tried to wake him the next morning, they discovered that he had passed away peacefully in his sleep. His prayer had been answered (paragraph 26 http://hindsfoot.org/rwvt.html ) "Above all, my faith in the Great Intelligence behind the universe, which can give me all the strength I need to face whatever life has to offer, is the foundation of my present life. When I die, my body will return to dust. Heaven is not any particular place in the sky, but my intelligence or soul, if it is in the proper condition, will return to the Great Intelligence behind the universe and will blend with that Great Intelligence and be at home again whence it came. My problem, in what is left of my life, is to keep my mind or intelligence in the proper condition -- by living with honesty, purity, unselfishness, love, and service -- so that when my time comes to go, my passing to a greater sphere of mind will be gentle and easy." - - - - SOURCES: Text of the 1933 Humanist Manifesto at: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/edwin_wilson/manifesto/ch13.html Information about Joseph Walker and the manifesto at: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/edwin_wilson/manifesto/ch6.html American Atheists website: http://www.atheists.org/ Richmond Walker chronology: http://hindsfoot.org/rwchrn.html Richmond Walker prayer: http://hindsfoot.org/rwvt.html Bio of Jim Burwell, "The Vicious Cycle" (2nd, 3rd, 4th eds. of the Big Book): http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/Authors.htm http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/Authors.htm#Jim%20Burwell http://silkworth.net/aabiography/storyauthors.html http://silkworth.net/aabiography/jimburwell.html IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4693. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill Pittman (1947-2007) From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/12/2007 8:28:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII BILL PITTMAN (1947-2007) William L. Pittman died on Friday, November 9, 2007. Funeral arrangements will be handled by Grandstrand Funeral Home 651-257-4000 More about these arrangements will be posted at http://www.aahistory.com/billpittman/sign.php as information comes in. Doug B. has put up a brief account of Bill's life and work, and a Memorial Book for those who would like to write a memorial or recollec- tion for Bill's family and friends, at: http://www.aahistory.com/billpittman/sign.php More will be added on Bill's life, and some stories about him, as information comes in from folks in the program who knew Bill and worked with him. You can send any useful material you have to Doug B. via the Memorial Book if you wish. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4694. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr. Silkworth on "real alcoholics" vs. heavy drinkers From: terrylwalton . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/13/2007 4:41:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII W. D. Silkworth, "Alcoholism as a Manifestation of Allergy," an article which appeared in the Medical Record (March 17, 1937), discusses what he saw as the difference between "normal drinkers" and the real alcoholic. http://silkworth.net/silkworth/allergy.html (For other of Dr. Silkworth's writings see http://silkworth.net/silkworth/silkworth.html ) - - - - We may set it down as a fundamental proposi- tion that alcoholism is not a habit. Second, drunkenness and alcoholism are not synonymous. Intoxication with alcohol, as commonly observed, is a purely superficial manifestation of no diagnostic importance whatever in itself; nor is the desire to take a drink, which is common to many. The majority of people who drink alcohol apparently do so with impunity. Prohi- bition revealed, among other things, how much people desire to use alcohol on all sorts of occasions, and that this desire, and inten- tion, are not limited to chronic alcoholics. The judge, the senator, the preacher, all want their alcohol on occasion. The merchant or the broker closes transactions over a highball and frequently indulges several times daily for many years. The clubman and the society matron, the daily laborer, the high and the low alike may drink daily more or less liberally of any and all sorts of liquor during much of their life time. They may, and do, become intoxicated; but note that in the majority of such cases alcohol exhibits only the immediate effects of the drug, and recov- ery is prompt and uncomplicated. Copious elimination, with a cold pack on the head and a brisk shower bath on the "morning after" end the matter. Also note, for later compari- son, that if, for any reason, this type of drinker decides to "swear off", he experi- ences no more physical or mental pang than accompanies the abandonment of any other habitual mode of living. There is no "problem," no struggle, no psychic complications to be met, nothing but the transient inconvenience of interruption in his usual customs. For one reason or another he has decided that the inducements to stop drinking are greater than those to continue it. He has had a one hundred percent change of mind and his will is one hundred percent free to act accord- ingly. Such people drink from choice and not from necessity. They find in alcohol a pleasant stimulation, a relief from anxieties, an increased warmth of conviviality. It is not a dominant factor in their lives. They are normal people, mentally and physically, to all intents and purposes. We must keep in mind, also, the fact that the multitude of persons who exhibit misbehavior conduct through faulty upbringing or complexes, who are oppressed by a sense of humiliation or inferiority because of unfriendly or disap- proving associates or because of some physical defect, and find that a few drinks enable them to consider themselves the equals of any or even superior to all others, are not to be classed as chronic alcoholics merely because they indulge in alcohol regularly. A change of environment, a new mental attitude, or the restoration of confidence in themselves may suffice to bring about a totally new policy on their part. The significant point is that under such circumstances, if they desire to stop drinking they can do it without a struggle. They have no need to lean upon anyone else or anything outside of themselves for support. Alcohol is not necessary for them. This, we believe, is a fair view of the general drinking public, and constitutes a familiar background against which to contrast a very different picture. These people are not true alcoholics, but they may become so; and it is from among them that the real alcoholics are derived. Let us now contrast with this kind of drinker an entirely different type. He is, as we have noted, a development of the class we have just described, his history may be quite like that of the average. But sooner or later there comes a time when he manifests changes that place him in a classification characterized by symptoms that were entirely lacking before, and unequivocally set him apart from the average drinker. Whereas he formerly drank for pleasure, he now has to drink from neces- sity in order to keep going. He cannot take his liquor or leave it, as he used to do. Yet, even if he is more or less soaked with it all day, his mind at first functions fairly well, he transacts his business with fair efficiency and keeps up with his obligations to his asso- ciates and the community. But he discovers that a change has occurred in him. He finds that he has to have a drink in the morning. Then he finds, after a little more time, that his hand shakes; when he signs his name, for example. Later, irritability and lack of concentration supervene. He is not the man temperamentally that he used to be. In order to meet these changes and increasing symptoms, he is compelled to increase the amount he consumes, and a prolonged spree replaces a short intoxication. - - - - Message 4686 from Laurie A. (jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com) Re: Why the term, "Real Alcoholic"? See also Doctor's Opinion, Big Book, viz: "The classification of alcoholics seems most difficult..." which doesn't stop him trying! Dr Silkworth identifies five types. Laurie A. - - - - (Big Book 4th ed. page xxx) "The classifica- tion of alcoholics seems most difficult, and in much detail is outside the scope of this book. There are, of course, the psychopaths who are emotionally unstable. We are all familiar with this type. They are always "going on the wagon for keeps." They are over-remorseful and make many resolutions, but never a decision. There is the type of man who is unwilling to admit that he cannot take a drink. He plans various ways of drinking. He changes his brand or his environment. There is the type who always believes that after being entirely free from alcohol for a period of time he can take a drink without danger. There is the manic-depressive type, who is, perhaps, the least understood by his friends, and about whom an entire chapter could be written. Then there are types entirely normal in every respect except in the effect alcohol has upon them. They are often able, intelligent, friendly people. All these, and many others, have one symptom in common: they cannot start drinking without developing the phenomenon of craving .... Much has been written pro and con, but among physicians, the general opinion seems to be that most chronic alcoholics are doomed." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4695. . . . . . . . . . . . The Psychoanalysis of Pharmachothymia From: Soberholic . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/14/2007 4:46:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello everyone, I'm currently interested in Dr. Tiebout's point of view (The Ego Factors in Surrender in Alcoholism) and I started to wonder who is this Rado he refers to: "In his studies on the addictions, _Rado_ more explicitly asserts that the Ego must be reduced. He first portrays the Ego as follows: "Once it was a baby, radiant with self-esteem, full of belief in the omnipotence of its wishes, of its thoughts, gestures and words." Then, on the process of Ego-reduction: "But the child's megalomania melted away under the inexorable pressure of experience. Its sense of its own sovereignty had to make room for a more modest self evaluation. This process, first described by Freud, may be designated the reduction in size of the original ego; it is a painful procedure and one that is possibly never completely carried out." This is what I found in the Internet; the article Dr. Tiebout refers to: Rado, S. "The Psychoanalysis of Pharmachothymia [drug addiction]. The clinical picture." Psychoanal. Quart. 2: 1-23, 1933. I live in Finland, and would greatly appreciate if someone in the United States had an access to Rado's article and could post it to me. Thank you :-) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4696. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Date of AA''s founding and the AMA convention From: terrylwalton . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/13/2007 4:34:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In Message 4672 from "Arthur S" (ArtSheehan at msn.com) Arthur says that the the cover of the American Medical Association meeting program states that the AMA annual meeting ran from June 10 to 14, 1935 and that he has three other corroborating references confirmed by the AMA Archives as genuine. But in some respects, the convention seems to have already been underway before Monday June 10. The following article from the June 10th issue of the New York Times is actually DATED the day before -- Sunday June 9th -- and indicates that exhibits and demonstrations were already going on. http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F40911F93A5D167A93C2A8178DD8 5F41\ 8385F9 [7] Fatal Ills Curbed by 'Brain Bath' Washing Poisons From System; Method of Combating Infantile Paralysis and Other Diseases by Injections in Ankle Reported at Atlantic City -- 8,000 Doctors to Attend Medical Convention. WILLIAM L. LAURENCE New York Times June 10, 1935, Monday ATLANTIC CITY, N.J., June 9. -- A new "medical shower bath" that enables physicians for the first time literally to wash away a number of fatal infections that attack the brain and central nervous system was demonstrated here today at the scientific exhibit of the first joint meeting of the American Medical Associ- ation and the Canadian Medical Association .... It would still however seem impossible that Bill W.'s timeline -- where Dr. Bob had his last drink on Monday, June 10, 1935 -- could be correct. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4697. . . . . . . . . . . . Alano From: tonischolz . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/15/2007 2:23:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I've been looking for the origins of the term, "Alano", as is used to describe or name the clubhouses for individuals of 12 step fellowships to gather. Any background on this, preferably that can be substantiated, is very much appreciated. Toni S. California IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4698. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The Psychoanalysis of Pharmachothymia From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/15/2007 7:28:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Jared Lobdell quotes Rado a few times in relation to Dr. T. in his book "THIS STRANGE ILLNESS." I would venture to guess that he has at least hard copies of the articles mentioned. --- Soberholic wrote: > Hello everyone, > > I'm currently interested in Dr. Tiebout's > point of view (The Ego Factors in Surrender > in Alcoholism) and I started to wonder who is > this Rado he refers to: > > "In his studies on the addictions, _Rado_ > more explicitly asserts that the Ego must be > reduced. He first portrays the Ego as follows: > "Once it was a baby, radiant with self-esteem, > full of belief in the omnipotence of its > wishes, of its thoughts, gestures and words." > > Then, on the process of Ego-reduction: "But > the child's megalomania melted away under the > inexorable pressure of experience. Its sense > of its own sovereignty had to make room for > a more modest self evaluation. This process, > first described by Freud, may be designated > the reduction in size of the original ego; it > is a painful procedure and one that is possibly > never completely carried out." > > This is what I found in the Internet; the > article Dr. Tiebout refers to: > > Rado, S. "The Psychoanalysis of Pharmachothymia > [drug addiction]. The clinical picture." > Psychoanal. Quart. 2: 1-23, 1933. > > I live in Finland, and would greatly appreciate > if someone in the United States had an access > to Rado's article and could post it to me. > > Thank you :-) > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4699. . . . . . . . . . . . 4000 missing speaker tapes: Glenn K. collection From: jt092274 . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/19/2007 11:47:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I remember during the late 90's having a copy of the entire list of tapes offered by "Glenn K." The tapes were mostly of So Cal speakers, approx 160 of Clancy I and almost as many of Chuck C. The new owners of "Glenn K" don't know any- thing about the missing tapes. None of them are on the xa site either. For example, there were several of couples sharing at retreats with names of people I knew, Fred E and his Alanon wife from Culver city. The original database I copied was in dBASE III format if that would be a clue. Also I heard, in approx '97 there was a lady in Orange County California who had a library of 5000 tapes. I had her email address a few computer crashes ago but only remember she was on AOL. I have so many memories of the speakers I heard all over Los Angeles in the 70's and 80's I bet many of them are in the missing tapes. Thanks, JT in Vegas (jt417552 at aol.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4700. . . . . . . . . . . . Updating Not-God From: Ernest Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/18/2007 9:00:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII For some 20 years now, I have been hearing rumors of Bill W's affairs, sexual promiscu- ity, sexual addiction. I am now undertaking a substantial revision of the book, Not-God. Much new material has been discovered since that dissertation was submitted to Harvard University in February 1978. For most of these discoveries, I have found evidence. Thus far, this has not been true of my efforts to investigate the rumors of Bill's sexual activity. I am aware of Bill's will and the Vitamin B-3 letters that went out on Helen W's letter- head. But neither nor both of these, by themselves, are sufficient evidence for many of the claims I have heard. As anyone who has read Not-God or heard me speak knows, I am not a Bill W. worshiper. In the published Not-God, I retained the story of Bill's use of LSD as an essential part of AA's story, though the General Service Chairman asked me to omit that. For I do honor the truth, and the nature of historical research requires that for every claim made, the historian ask, "What is the evidence?" With this, then, I appeal to the members of the AA History Lovers Group to help me in this quest. What I need is evidence on the topic of Bill W's sexual activity, evidence of a quality at least as solid as that represented by the present endnotes and other critical apparatus in Not-God. Thank you for bearing with this request. Because of the sensitivity of the topic, I ask that replies be sent to me off-list: kurtzern@umich.edu (kurtzern at umich.edu) Thanks again, ernie kurtz - - - - From the moderator: Please, the AAHistoryLovers is not the right forum for debating whether historians should or should not investigate this question. Dr. Kurtz has asked a question of historical fact, so we are posting it. If you have provable factual information, and you wish to share it with him, please email it directly to Dr. Kurtz at the above email address. Glenn C. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4701. . . . . . . . . . . . ‘I Am an Alcoholic.’ Who Said it First? From: Fiona Dodd . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/18/2007 4:08:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ‘I Am an Alcoholic.’ Who Said it First? Who was the first to start a meeting or a qualification with the statement, “I am an alcoholic”? How did the worldwide custom begin? As late co-founder Bill W. used to observe, “Nobody invented A.A., it just grew.” And so probably did its classic introduction at meetings. “Many members ask us these questions,” says a G.S.O.staff member. “Unfortunately, only a few of the earlytimers are left, and not many of them are able to provide plausible theories. So we can only speculate.” According to an early friend of A.A., the late Henrietta Seiberling, the expression dates back to meetings of A.A.’s forerunner, the Oxford Group Movement, which had its heyday in the early 1930s. Mrs. Seiberling, a nonalcoholic who had sought spiritual help in the Oxford Group meetings, introduced Bill to A.A.’s other founder, Dr. Bob, then struggling to get sober in the Oxford Group. At small meetings, the members knew one another and didn’t need to identify themselves. But in the large, “public” meetings, where there was “witnessing” along the lines of an A.A. talk today, personal identification became necessary. Chances are that someone at some time said, “I am an alcoholic,” but Mrs. Seiberling wasn’t sure. Nor did she remember that the phrase was used at early A.A. meet- ings in Akron, before publication of the Big Book. In fact, she said, the word “alcoholic” was rarely uttered, at least in Akron. People referred to themselves as “drunks” or “rum hounds” or “boozers” or other choice epithets reminiscent of the Temperance Movement that gained adherents during Prohibition. An early New York A.A. first heard the expression as “I am an alcoholic and my name is ....” According to his recollection, that was after World War II, in 1945 or 1946. And it is a matter of record that, in 1947, a documentary film entitled, I Am an Alcoholic, was produced by RKO Pathe. From then on, as Bill might say, the custom “just grew.” Box 4-5-9, October/November 2007 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4702. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Date of AA''s founding and the AMA convention From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/14/2007 6:16:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I attended a large number of professional conferences, mainly the American Chemical Society's national conference and the annual American Industrial Hygiene Conference. There were usually short courses the weekend before the official start and quite often exhibits were open, too. Committees would meet, core and comp exams would be given - all this before the conference officially began. I suspect this was happening in the '30s, too. Tommy H in Baton Rouge - - - - From: "Kevin Dew" (kddew at bardstowncable.net) Being a physician, I know it's not unusual for docs to arrive a couple of days ahead of the "first day" of a conference to sight see, catch up with colleagues etc. I would imagine that back in 1935 it would be even more common to plan on early arrival to allow for travel difficulties. - - - - From: "Mike B." (mikeb384 at verizon.net) Traditionally, the AMA convention opened on Sunday with the exhibits and opening session, and continued through Wednesday. Over the years, the convention has changed, due primarily to the emergence of speciality organizations, and the exhibits were dropped some time ago. In recent years, the meetings have been more of a administrative nature than educational. Mike B. - - - - Original message no. 4696, terrylwalton wrote: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/4696 >The following article from the June 10th issue >of the New York Times is actually DATED the >day before -- Sunday June 9th -- and indicates >that exhibits and demonstrations were already >going on. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4703. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The Psychoanalysis of Pharmachothymia From: terrylwalton . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/17/2007 10:24:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Sandor Rado, M.D. 1890-1972 Aaron Karush Sandor Rado, a life member of the American Psychoanalytic Association and an outstanding leader in psychoanalytic education since 1926, died on May 14, 1972 at the age of eighty-two. Born in Hungary, Dr. Rado was strongly influenced by Freud's early discoveries concerning unconscious mental processes and the sources of unconscious motivation. Freud, Ferenczi, and Abraham contributed directly and most profoundly to his future development as a psychoanalytic theorist and as an educator. In 1926, Freud appointed him Editor of two psychoanalytic journals, the Zeitschrift für Psychoanalyse and Imago. He became co-director of the Berlin Psycho- analytic Institute where he was instrumental in developing the general psychoanalytic curriculum and the tripartite approach to psychoanalytic training which has remained the basic model for all psychoanalytic institutes to this day. This was taken directly from a Google search on Rado and AA and found this site: http://www.pep-web.org/document.php?id=paq.041.0613a --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Soberholic" wrote: > > Hello everyone, > > I'm currently interested in Dr. Tiebout's > point of view (The Ego Factors in Surrender > in Alcoholism) and I started to wonder who is > this Rado he refers to: > > "In his studies on the addictions, _Rado_ > more explicitly asserts that the Ego must be > reduced. He first portrays the Ego as follows: > "Once it was a baby, radiant with self-esteem, > full of belief in the omnipotence of its > wishes, of its thoughts, gestures and words." > > Then, on the process of Ego-reduction: "But > the child's megalomania melted away under the > inexorable pressure of experience. Its sense > of its own sovereignty had to make room for > a more modest self evaluation. This process, > first described by Freud, may be designated > the reduction in size of the original ego; it > is a painful procedure and one that is possibly > never completely carried out." > > This is what I found in the Internet; the > article Dr. Tiebout refers to: > > Rado, S. "The Psychoanalysis of Pharmachothymia > [drug addiction]. The clinical picture." > Psychoanal. Quart. 2: 1-23, 1933. > > I live in Finland, and would greatly appreciate > if someone in the United States had an access > to Rado's article and could post it to me. > > Thank you :-) > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4704. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Alano From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/15/2007 6:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Alano would stand for an abbreviation of ALcoholics ANOnymous and the first club called Alano was in Minneapolis, Minnesota. The 1st clubhouse would have been in New York and the 1st "full service" clubhouse was here in Philadelphia. Yis, Shakey Mike Gwirtz going to Niagara Falls, NY Sept 11-14,2008 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4705. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Alano From: t . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/16/2007 1:36:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The story I have heard and sometimes repeated is that it came about after our sister fellow- ship, Al-Anon, started up. Some Clubs prior to that had called themselves "Alanon Clubs". About the time Al-Anon was starting they were wanting to call themselves "AA Family Groups". Our central office in NY asked them not to include AA in their name to avoid problems with implied affiliation. So they sent a questionnaire out to all their groups in May 1951 and by March of 1952 had enough feedback to settle on the name Al-Anon, which Lois W, states is simply a derivative of Alcoholics Anonymous, combining the first syllables of each word ["Lois Remembers" pgs 174, 176]. Looking at the dates below, it seems that the transition to Alano may have come even earlier, though Lois' explanation of the origin of the words probably still apply. "Alano/Alanon" clubs mentioned in the old Grapevines: VOL. I, NO. 6, NOV., 1944 JERSEYITES BUY BIG SOCIABLE CLUBHOUSE To the A.A.s of North Jersey goes the honor of being the original contributors to one phase of A.A. history, geographically speaking. They are the first of the "Along the Metro- politan Circuit" groups to buy a clubhouse of their own. Members of a dozen North Jersey groups, forming a company called Alanon Association (Joe B. is their counsel), participated in the deal that ended, in October, in the purchase of the three-story brick building at 8th Ave. and North 7th St., Newark, N. J., known as the Roseville Athletic Association. The purchase price of 22,000.00 includes furniture and equipment, which in turn includes such things as pool and billiard tables and bowling alleys. The transaction involved a first mortgage of 15,000.00 with a non-alcoholic A.A. supporter, the remainder (a large portion of which has already been subscribed) to be pledged by individual A.A.s. Certificates of indebtedness are to be issued to all contrib- utors, bearing interest, and redeemable in five to ten years. The plan is, however, to clear off all indebtedness as quickly as possible, including the mortgage. (Up to the time of purchase the building had sustained itself financially with revenues from bowling, pool, billiards, and tobacco.) The dues system will be voluntary weekly contributions — the amounts kept a strictly confidential matter — with 1.00 as tops. Participation of the A.A. men and women in Alanon, Inc., is entirely as individuals. There were no group commitments, and care was taken to avoid involving Alcoholics Anonymous in any way. The Board of Trustees of the corpora- tion are: Chairman, Tom M.; Secretary, Jim G.; Treasurer, Herman G.; Recording Secretary (handling dues), Hal R.; Stuart S., Dr. Arthur S., Pete O'T., Oscar 0., Helen D., Bea W., Ed M., and Leo S. The Newark Group, who have been holding their meetings at the Roseville A.A. for three years, will continue to do so. Maintained for 58 years as a conservative gentleman's club, there has never been a bar in the club. However, food facilities, which also do not exist at present, will be installed pronto. The big building is located one block from the Roseville Avenue station of the Lackawanna R.R., about 20 minutes from New York. It is expected that the clubhouse will develop into a clinical center for new people, and a social haven for all A.A. men and women, irrespective of their group membership. ------------------------------- VOL. II, NO. 5, OCTOBER, 1945 in an article titled: CHICAGO'S NEIGHBORHOOD GROUPS there is a subsection: The Alano Club Another activity is the Alano Club on the sixth floor at 189 West Madison Street. This project is sponsored and supported by members of the metropolitan group, administering it separate from the central office but entirely in keeping with A. A. principles and practices. Open house with coffee and cake at the Club follows each Tuesday night meeting. There are regular A. A. meetings at the Club at I P. M. Wednesday and at 8: 30 P. M. Friday. ------------------------------- VOL. III, NO. 2, JULY, 1946 from regular column: A. A.'s Country-Wide News Circuit The Newark Group has moved into its new meeting quarters at 66 North 7th Street, about one block from the Alanon Clubhouse. More than 100 people were at the first meeting in their new home. Another group, known as the North Newark A.A., is growing to such an extent that they are now forming a second one. Other new groups in this vicinity are the Vailsburg and Clinton Hill. also: In "Easy Does It." its second annual variety show, the East Orange, N. J., Group went to town again this year, displaying lots of talent and ingenuity. The show was produced and directed by the group, with scenery painted by the members. Stage crew, electricians, tickettakers and ushers, all were recruited from the local A.A.s. And the cast of 36 "Easy-doers" came from the group. The music was furnished by the Alanon orchestra from Newark. This entirely A.A. production brought an audience of 600 A.A.s and friends from nearby communities. Some of the rollicking musical numbers and satirical skits were "The March of Crime," "You Made Him What He Is Today," "Boys Will Be Girls," and "Don't Point." also: The newly organized Alano Club in Milwaukee, which was incorporated under the state laws of Wisconsin, is holding a series of Sunday evening buffet suppers. The Milwaukee A.A.s invite out-of-town members to their clubrooms in the Metropolitan Block, 3rd and State Streets. ------------------------------- VOL. III. NO. 6, NOVEMBER, 1946, from regular column: A. A.'s Country-Wide News Circuit And Housing, Too. Within five months from the time the first five prospects met, the Alano Club Inc., of Spokane, Wash., had purchased and moved into a beautiful clubhouse with grounds adequate to build an adjoining one-story auditorium which is planned for the near future. Valued at $18,000 and completely furnished through the work of the Ladies Home committee and fellow members, the club house is described as "sanctuary and bee-hive combined." Squad meetings (classes for beginners) and a general meeting on Saturday keep up the activities every night in the week. Since the first meeting on June 21, 1945, the club has grown to more than 100 members and while growing "fast and strong" has had the finest cooperation of civic clubs, newspapers, judges, doctors and hospitals. ------------------------------- VOL. III. NO. 7, DECEMBER, 1946, from regular column: A. A.'s Country-Wide News Circuit The Alano Society of Minneapolis, Minn, gave double significance by combining it with the Founders' Day Banquet to be held each year. The sixth anniversary dinner was held at the Nicollet hotel on November 16. Columbus, 0., Groups gathered on a Sunday afternoon last month in the grand ballroom of the Neil house where 750 A.A.s and guests celebrated the fifth anniversary. A Columbus member gave a short history of the founding and growth and then introduced a Cleveland doctor who was the principal speaker. Following the meeting there was a social hour and banquet. Guests included invited members of the clergy, medical profession, judiciary, social workers, welfare workers and public health representatives. The South Bend, Ind., Tribune devoted more than a column and a half to an account of how more than 200 from 10 cities gathered there and "gave evidence of the miracle which had been performed." This dinner, the third anniversary, drew representatives from South Bend, Mishawaka, Elkhart, Laporte, Warsaw, Indianapolis and Ft. Wayne, Ind., Benton Harbor and Kalamazoo, Mich., and Chicago. The speaker said, "The secret of A.A. is the technique of surrender. We surrendered ourselves to victory." The newspaper concluded the account by listing the postoffice boxes of the groups for those desiring information. also: Recently 25 Omaha A.A.s drove to Lincoln to meet with a new group. Just to keep things bubbling more than champagne at the Alano club, Omaha, an experiment is being made with a set of recordings, 18 sides, which explain basic principles to prospects seeking informa- tion during the day when no member is present. The data recorded is being mimeographed in pamphlet form, pocket size, for 12th Step purposes. ------------------------------- VOL. III, NO. 10. MARCH, 1947. from regular column: A. A.'s Country-Wide News Circuit Club Ownership Changes. — Three years after the San Francisco, Cal., Fellowship opened its first clubhouse, it turned over its second club at 143 Bush Street, with all physical assets, to the newly incorporated Alano Club, thus completing separation of the administra- tions of the Fellowship and the Club. Requirement for the Club membership is voting membership in the Fellowship. Guest memberships will be extended to new A.A.s, visiting A.A.s and relatives of members. The first club was outgrown in a year, after beginning with 35 at a meeting in February 1944. The second club has a seating capacity of about 250 and served as central meeting spot until nine months ago when it was necessary to rent an outside hall. The A.A. office will remain at the Club for the time being. San Francisco membership is estimated between 400 and 500 with ten weekly meetings. ------------------------------- VOL.III.NO.11, APRIL, 1947. from article: A. A. Clubs - - - Are They With Us to Stay? Clubs Separate Business This tangle slowly commenced to unravel, as we began to get the idea that clubs ought to be strictly the business of those individuals who specially want clubs, and who are willing to pay for them. We began to see that club management is a pure business proposition which ought to be separately incorporated under another name such, for example, as "Alanon"; that the "directors" of a club corporation ought to look after club business only; that an A.A. group, as such, should never get into active management of a business project. Hectic experience has since taught us that if an A.A. rotating committee tries to boss the club corporation or if the corporation tries to run the A.A. affairs of those groups who may meet at the club there is difficulty at once. The only way we have found to cure this is to separate the material from the spiritual. If an A.A. group wishes to use a given club let them pay rent or split the meeting take with the club management. To a small group opening its first clubroom this procedure may seem silly because, for the moment, the group members will also be club members. Nevertheless separation by early incorporation is recommended because it will save much confusion later on as other groups start forming in the area. ------------------------------- VOL.III.NO.11, APRIL, 1947. from regular column: A. A.'s Country-Wide News Circuit Clubs Open. —The Longview, Wash., Club has opened new quarters in The Alano Club, 215 Empire Building, Hudson and Commerce Streets. Regular meetings are each Wednesday and Saturday at 7:30 with visitors invited. The Longview Group is also putting out a card bearing the P.O. Box number 1028, and phone, 3075-J, with the admonition "Let us help you solve that drinking problem" and a four page leaflet with questions to determine whether the reader is an alcoholic and A.A. information. Clearwater, Fla., members have what our correspondent describes as "ideal" quarters for the group of 25, the former headquarters of the Garden Club with a palm tree which came to grief, and blew over, arching the doorway. The palm, a real alcoholic, has risen again and put out shoots. In spite of a small membership the Butte, Mont., Group found a good place with a kitchen adequate to prepare much coffee. A good many members are reported familiar with the surroundings, (formerly a speakeasy) but redecorated considerably, from new wall paper out. The ambition is to have the club open every night and that goal is being approached. About 50 volunteers showed up in Des Moines, Iowa, to help put the arch through the wall to take on 600 square feet of additional space for the club there and it was reported as a great cooperative effort. One member brought a crew of five with three trucks and air and hand hammers. ------------------------------- VOL. IV, NO. 1, JUNE, 1947. from regular column: A. A.'s Country-Wide News Circuit Out of the Red (Both Ways)—Alanon Association, Inc., club of Newark, N.J., A.A.s, has announced that in six months it has changed a deficit of nearly $5,000 into a healthy surplus through a series of various activities and prompt dues paying. Alanon now has a yearly functioning cost of $50,000 for a tremendous list of activities. Copies of The Alanon News list community sings, parlor nights, women's card parties, booster club meetings, dances, game room entertainment and good restaurant facilities, in addition to monthly Inter-Group mass meetings and other major events in the auditorium. Plans for the future are equally ambitious with modernizing the wiring and light, providing adequate fire exits and possible changes in the restaurant operation are under consideration. Alanon has had a swift, mushroom growth from 70 members who bought the club two and a half years ago to nearly 400 who own it today. A steadily growing number use it daily and nightly. also: More and Better Clubs—Formal opening of new clubrooms last month was held by Mankato, Minn., A.A.s, with speakers from Colfax, Wis., and Minneapolis. A local member gave a brief history and a letter from Bill W. was read. According to the president of the Alano society there, the group was two years old early this spring and has grown from two men, who started out in July, 1944, and by March, 1945, had drawn in five others. First meeting in homes, a local hotel room was used later and served until March, 1946, when two rooms were leased in a downtown building. This year 2,600 square feet of space in a new building were leased for four and a half years. The 46 regular members spent about $4,000 in fixing up the quarters. Mankato has four women members, one of whom is the oldest in sobriety. Quarters for the club in Denver, Colo., have been enlarged substantially during the past six months and the membership is still growing. In Omaha, Nebr., a drive for the building fund closed last month. About $2500 was put into the clubroom, including; a kitchen with modern, complete equipment for social activities. Redecoration, remodeling, lighting and modern furniture were included in improvements. The recreation room in the basement is not complete, but the final drive is expected to take care of this. ------------------------------- VOL. IV, NO. 2, JULY, 1947 from regular column: A.A.'s Country-Wide News Circuit Mortgage Burned—The board of trustees of Alanon Association, Inc., club unit for Newark, N. J., A.A.s, paid off in full the second mortgage on the clubhouse amounting to $2,550 and the occasion was celebrated by a "mortgage burning" and big party. ------------------------------- VOL. IV, NO. 4, SEPTEMBER, 1947. from regular column: A.A.'s Country-Wide News Circuit Winonans Advertise, Too — The A.A. Group in Winona, Minn., runs a classified ad daily in the Republican-Herald, the local newspaper, changing the wording every six or eight weeks. The current ad has read: "Is drinking a problem that is affecting you domestically, socially, economically, and physically? Possibly we can help you. Write Alcoholics Anonymous, P.O. Box 122. No treatment, confidential, no dues." Twenty members from Winona were among 300 who attended the first anniversary dinner of the Alano society of Rochester (Minn.) A.A. in July. also: Milwaukee Women Organize—A women's group has been formed by A.A. in Milwaukee, with meetings every other Wednesday in the Alano Club at 1012 North 3rd Street. The Alano Club is now 16 months old, and occupies a suite of six rooms in downtown Milwaukee. ------------------------------- VOL. IV, NO. 5, OCTOBER, 1947. from regular column: A.A.'s Country-Wide News Circuit News from Newark—Judging from the variety of activities, past and planned, the publication of the Alanon Association of Newark, N. J., is well named The News. Included in the September issue are announcement of a bowling season, report of a Monte Carlo Night, a venture in sound moving pictures, a corn cob and hot dog party, a series of games, a fall dance, a "Monster Ball," rehearsals for the second annual "Show Boat," a contemporary art exhibit and tea as well as a report of the regular monthly inter-group meeting and announcement of the first annual New Jersey Inter-Group banquet to be held at the Terrace Ball Room October 16. also, short announcement: Omaha Holds Festival Two big days of a fall festival were staged by Omaha, Nebr. A.A. Groups Sept. 27 and 28, with programs both Saturday and Sunday. Registrations were made for hotel or residence reservations, sightseeing tours and church services. There was a dinner and floor show, with no speeches, at the Elks club. Sunday began with a breakfast at the Alano club and the sightseeing tours included a visit to Boys' Town. An A.A. meeting was held Sunday afternoon with speakers from North Platte, Fremont and Grand Island, Nebraska, and Council Bluffs, Ia. ------------------------------- Vol. IV, NO. 6, NOVEMBER, 1947. from article: Incorporations: Their Uses and Misuses By Bill 3. Q. But how about Clubs? Being so close to A.A., shouldn't they be an exception; just why shouldn't they bear the A.A. name and be managed by the Group itself? A. We used to think they should. When a Group is small and merely hires a room, it is quite natural to call the place an "A.A, Clubroom." Conversationally, most clubs are still called "A.A. Clubs." But when an area contains many A.A.s, and perhaps several Groups, not all the A.A. members w i l l care for Clubs. Hence the business management of the club (or clubs) in the area must become the function of those who individually contribute to their support and the corporate title should omit "A.A." The contributors ought to elect the business management. Then other A.A.s can "take the club or leave it alone." Club Corporations often adopt a related title, such as "Alano" or "Alkanon." But more remote ventures, such as farms or drying-out places operated by individuals A.A.s, ought not use these "related" titles. ------------------------------- Vol. IV, NO. 6, NOVEMBER, 1947. from regular column: A.A.'s Country-Wide News Circuit Second Fall Festival -Inaugurated as an annual affair last year to regenerate enthusiasm for the winter season and rededicate combined efforts to A.A. work and study, the second annual Omaha, Nebr., groups' Fall Festival was attended by more than 200 members, many with their wives and families. Saturday evening at the Elks club they attended a banquet with no speeches, but with a program featuring an array of professional talent which starred "Miss Omaha," Madalyn King, whose fast tap dancing won the talent award in the Atlantic City Miss America Beauty Pageant. Song leaders from two Iowa groups competed in leading the community sing with a Council Bluffs member winning over one from Des Moines, Ia., both putting on excellent shows. A free Bingo game with several hundred dollars worth of prizes was followed by dancing, cards and impromptu entertainment. Sunday morning members and guests had breakfast at the Alano club, then visited Father Flanagan's Boys Town and other places in Omaha. The meeting of the day was at the Elks club with Omaha's oldest member as chairman and members in attendance from Iowa, South Dakota, Missouri, Illinois, Colorado and Nebraska. The principal address was delivered by Roy M. of Chicago. The open house session at the club ran into morning hours. ------------------------------- Vol. IV, NO. 10, MARCH, 1948. from regular column: A.A.'s Country-Wide News Circuit Newark Has Full Calendar—The latest issue of the Newark, N J., Alanon News (which incidentally was the first anniversary issue) listed for February a card party on the 7th; a Valentine party and dance with a Sweetheart contest on the 14th; a night of games the 21st, and a Leap Year dance with a male popularity contest on the 28th. A dance and chowder party on January 31 was the last of that month's many events. The Alanon Club's television programs draw good attendance, for the boxing bouts on Mondays, Tuesdays and Fridays, and other programs on Wednesdays and Thursdays. The latest addition to the extensive entertainment facilities is a grand piano, a gift to the club. ------------------------------- Vol. V, NO. 1, JUNE, 1948. from regular column: News Circuit of A. A. Groups From All Parts of the World Open New Club—Beginning with one member and one dollar in December, 1947, the Alano Club, San Diego, Calif., now boasts more than 100 members. ------------------------------- Vol. V, NO. 2, JULY, 1948. from regular column: News Circuit of A. A. Groups From All Parts of the World Indianapolis A.A.s Open Club—-A three story brick building, used during the war as the USO Center, is now the new Alano Club of Indianapolis. The clubhouse is complete with a large room for dancing, lounges and coffee and sandwich bar, equipped with a brass rail so that the members will feel at home. The opening was attended by approximately 500 members and friends. The clubrooms are open at all times and groups from all parts of the city hold meetings there. ------------------------------- Vol. V, NO. 3, AUG., 1948. from regular column: News Circuit of A. A. Groups From All Parts of the World Banquet Marks Anniversary — The Alano Club, Spokane, Wash., recently observed the third anniversary of its founding with a banquet and open house. From the original four members the group has grown to nearly 300 and is steadily gaining. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4706. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Alano From: Art Boudreault . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/16/2007 2:57:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dear Toni, I have contributed to the book "Journey to Recovery, a Fifty Year History of Al-Anon and Alateen in Northern California", I found this on page 13. "On November 17, 1951, at a meeting in New York, Lois W., Ann B. [co-founders of Al-Anon Family Groups] and other volunteers [met].... It was at this meeting that the name, Al-Anon Family Groups, was chosen ..." and "These minutes mention two clubhouses in New York. One of them is called the Alanon Club." Origin of the name Al-Anon is also described. [When asked about the (-) in Al-Anon,] "A later publication states that the "-" appears to avoid confusion with these clubs." This later publication is the November 1987 Issue of the monthly magazine, Forum, published by Al-Anon Family Group Headquarters, Inc. In the early 1990s, I heard that an Alanon club in Austin TX had received a letter from Bill W., co-founder of AA, requesting that "Alanon clubs change their name to Alano, to avoid confusion with the new Al-Anon Family Groups." I have not seen that letter and don't know where I might find it. Today I did a google search for "alanon club" and found a registry of Alano clubs at http://www.grrr.net/alano.html#tx On this list, there is only one Alanon Club, in Glendale CA. If anyone has a copy of the letter, or knows where it may be found, please let me know. Sincerely, Art Boudreault San Jose, CA artb@netwiz.net (artb at netwiz.net) Past Al-Anon Delegate IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4707. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Alano From: Ken Ring . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/16/2007 4:24:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I can only share the "when" of the use of the word "Alano" here in regards to the formation of the not-for-profit corporation that founded The Alano Society of Minneapolis, Inc. (documented). That was on March 28, 1942 when seven members of A.A. signed the document that led to the purchase of the property at 2218-1st Ave S in Minneapolis, Minnesota. It opened on May 17, 1942 and is still and has been continuously open since that date, at that location. The first 3 members got their sobriety on April 13, 1940, November 11, 1940 and December 2, 1940. There were several rented halls and member's homes used for meetings by the original members of the Minneapolis Group prior to the purchase and usage of the old John Washburn mansion. There is no reason to believe that the word was used here first, but you did request something that could be substantiated. We hear two pronounciations here: ALano and Alano. Speculation is that it was simply an adaptation of the word alcohol with the negative "no" ending. Re: Toni S. wrote: Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:25 am (PST) I've been looking for the origins of the term, "Alano", as is used to describe or name the clubhouses for individuals of 12 step fellowships to gather. Any background on this, preferably that can be substantiated, is very much appreciated. Toni S. California IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4708. . . . . . . . . . . . When did Dr. Silkworth''s name get printed in the BB? From: Cherie . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/16/2007 1:24:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII When did Dr. Silkworths name first get printed in the Big Book? I've searched the archives and can't seem to find the answer to this question. I have a 1st Edition 5th Printing,borrowed from my sponsor, where Dr. Silkworth's name is not printed, and wonder what printing/ edition his name began being printed in? thanks Cherie' Mt. Clemens MI IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4709. . . . . . . . . . . . "Charlie" sober in OG a year before Bill & Bob? From: jt417552@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/21/2007 5:41:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I remember in the early 70's knowing an AA who frequently brought newcomers to the meeting house at 26th and Broadway in Santa Monica. I'd see Chuck drive in the parking lot and he and the newcomer would walk into the building. On this occasion Chuck helped a very old man with a beard and a funny looking cane out of his car and up the steps. I being fairly new to AA instantly judged the situation. I thought to myself, 'Oh Chuck, he's too old to get sober.' The old guy was helped to a seat and to my surprise became the main speaker that day. He told of getting sober in the Oxford group a year before Bill W and joining AA in time to help write part of Chapter Three. A few years later when I became interested in AA history I looked all through AA Comes of Age for a name "Charlie" who would have matched the gentleman's story but found nothing. I've asked over the years several history buffs including Clancy I. if they knew who he was. The now deceased Chuck and his wife Lee Cohen were solid AA's, both in their early 60's, each sober approx 10 yrs, who would not fall for a scam so my memory stirs questions still. The only part of Chuck's story I remember was during his drinking days he was involved on the east coast with what he called "The Jewish Mafia" Do any of you know of a "Charlie" who got sober in the Oxford Group a year before Bill W. and Dr. Bob got sober, who later became an AA member? Thanks, JT IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4710. . . . . . . . . . . . AA conventions receiving discounts From: moates57 . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/21/2007 11:04:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Can anyone tell me the Box 4-5-9 article on the San Diego 1995 Convention, and accepting perks from the city of San Diego? We have a situation where we are starting a convention and the city has offered us a 50% discount as a 501c3. This is offered to any 501c3. Half the committee says we can't take it and the other half says we can. One member says the Box 4-5-9 article mentioned above answers these questions. Also if you know of any other AA writings concerning AA convention financing, please refer me to them. Michael S. Oates IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4711. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Howard the ex-doctor? From: arcchi88 . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/17/2007 8:40:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A Doctor Howard S. does appear in the book "Dr Bob and the Good Old-Timers" on page 129. He is described as a general practitioner at Cuyahoga Falls (which is where Earl T. was from). It describes him as an alcoholic who had been cured by Dr. Bob and his friends. However, he does not appear in any of the early membership lists that I have seen circulating. A quick check of the Cuyahoga Falls directory for this period might reveal his identity. Tom C. Evanston, IL - - - - Message 4554 from Diz Titcher diz49@earthlink.net (diz49 at earthlink.net) diz49@embarqmail.com (diz49 at embarqmail.com) Has anyone ever identified Howard, the ex Doctor on pp. 260-261, BB 4th edition? Has anyone ever identified Howard, the ex Doctor on pp. 260-261, BB 4th edition? The question can up in a BB study and I do not know. Diz Titcher diz49@embarqmail.com (diz49 at embarqmail.com) - - - - From the moderator: This is pp. 289-290 in the 3rd edit., for those who arre still using that. Howard's name appears in the story "He Sold Himself Short." Nancy Olson's bio gives us a lot about Earl Treat (whose story this is) but doesn't identify this particular figure: http://silkworth.net/aabiography/earltreat.html IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4712. . . . . . . . . . . . Old lists of group membership requirements From: terrylwalton . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/17/2007 11:08:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I found a site that has some old Grapevine articles which had also posted the early membership requirements of the Little Rock group in Arkansas. It was pretty wild to me, "slip squads" and "prospect squad." And new men had to take two weeks from work to perform what ever tasks their sponsors dictated. http://www.silkworth.net/pdfhistory/Little-Rock-Plan-Gives-Prospects-Sep-194 7.pd\ f [8] My question is where could I find more of these early "membership rules" that I could read? Thank you, Terry W terrylwalton@yahoo.com (terrylwalton at yahoo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4713. . . . . . . . . . . . Then a mental fog settled down From: Carl P. . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/17/2007 12:30:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Big Book page 6: "An all night place supplied me with a dozen glasses of ale .... Then a mental fog settled down. Gin would fix that. So two bottles, and -- oblivion." The question raised by one of our members is whether anyone in this web group can enlarge on what Bill meant by a "mental fog." Does anyone have a medical definition of this meaning ? Many Thanks Carl P IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4714. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "Charlie" sober in OG a year before Bill & Bob? From: schaberg43 . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/22/2007 6:09:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In Jim Burwell's copy of the Original Manu- script, he has handwritten a list of people who contributed to the writing of the Big Book. The only "Charlie" to appear on that list of 49 people is "Chas. Simons" who is listed as belonging to the Akron Group and who was one of the 38 people on that list who drank again - at least once. Chas. Simons is also listed by Jim as the author of the first edition Big Book story: "Riding the Rods." Old Bill - - - - From the moderator, for more on this figure, see: Charlie Simonson (Simondsord? Simpson?), author of "Riding the Rods" http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/Authors.htm http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/Authors.htm#Riding%20the%20Rods IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4715. . . . . . . . . . . . New information on Richmond Walker From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/22/2007 6:12:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Richmond Walker, the second most-published AA author (who wrote Twenty-Four Hours a Day) couldn't get sober until the death (in 1942) of his father, Joseph Walker, a very well known American atheist. Even then, Rich said in the lead he gave in Rutland, Vermont, on January 1, 1958, that when he fell down on his knees and prayed, he found himself saying, "God, if there is a God," help me get sober. He still wasn't sure, in other words, that his father might not have been right in claiming that God could not possibly exist. But "seeing is believing," as Rich said, and once he called upon God wholeheartedly, and began going to AA meetings in Boston, he was able to get sober and stay sober. His continued sobriety was the proof of God's reality and power. One of the most notorious atheistic documents of the 1930's was the Humanist Manifesto published in the May/June 1933 issue of The New Humanist (VI:3:1-5). One of the thirty-four well known figures who signed this manifesto was Joseph Walker, who a year earlier had published a book entitled "Humanism As a Way of Life." This Joseph Walker was the father of Richmond Walker, as I mentioned, the second most published AA author, who got sober in Boston in May 1942 -- Rich made the decision to attend AA and get sobered up while he was at his father Joseph's funeral. By 1948, Rich had come to a rich and deep understanding of God, and published the meditational book "Twenty-Four Hours a Day" under the sponsorship of the Daytona Beach AA group in Florida. According to Rich's son, their family went to the Unitarian church while he was growing up. So it is clear that, while Rich may have come to a strong and deeply committed belief in God's power and existence, that he still did not feel comfortable with the idea of the divinity of Christ and the literal infallibility of the Bible, and that sort of thing, and felt far more comfortable in an extremely liberal church like the Unitarian church. The kind of belief in God which Rich developed drew heavily on the ideas of the New England Transcendentalists (Ralph Waldo Emerson, Henry David Thoreau, and so on), New England Unitarianism, and nineteenth-century German idealist philosophy (where a large number of the faculty at Williams College, where he did his college degree, had done at least part of their graduate study in Germany). And according to Rich's son, Rich continued to read books on philosophy avidly all his life. According to Rich's son, their family spent the warmer months at a beachfront house in Cohasset, Massachusetts, not far from Boston, and the cold months in a house on the beach in Daytona Beach. The son says that Rich did not like cold weather, and was frequently seen wearing sweaters and heavy clothes when everyone else was in shirt sleeves, and used to ask plaintively quite early in the Fall, "Do we HAVE to wait until after Thanksgiving to go down to Florida?" Rich died on March 25, 1965, at the age of 72, with 22 years of sobriety. His son and daughter told me that he went out and spent the day on the beach, talking with his friends and enjoying himself -- his whole time was being spent in AA work of one kind or another by that point in his life -- came back home and went to bed, and when they tried to wake him the next morning, they discovered that he had passed away peacefully in his sleep. His prayer had been answered (paragraph 26 http://hindsfoot.org/rwvt.html ) "Above all, my faith in the Great Intelligence behind the universe, which can give me all the strength I need to face whatever life has to offer, is the foundation of my present life. When I die, my body will return to dust. Heaven is not any particular place in the sky, but my intelligence or soul, if it is in the proper condition, will return to the Great Intelligence behind the universe and will blend with that Great Intelligence and be at home again whence it came. My problem, in what is left of my life, is to keep my mind or intelligence in the proper condition -- by living with honesty, purity, unselfishness, love, and service -- so that when my time comes to go, my passing to a greater sphere of mind will be gentle and easy." - - - - SOURCES: Text of the 1933 Humanist Manifesto at: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/edwin_wilson/manifesto/ch13.html Information about Joseph Walker and the manifesto at: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/edwin_wilson/manifesto/ch6.html Richmond Walker chronology: http://hindsfoot.org/rwchrn.html Richmond Walker prayer: http://hindsfoot.org/rwvt.html IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4716. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: When did Dr. Silkworth''s name get printed in the BB? From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/21/2007 7:30:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII At 00:24 11/16/2007 , Cherie wrote: >When did Dr. Silkworths name first get printed >in the Big Book? > >I've searched the archives and can't seem to >find the answer to this question. > >I have a 1st Edition 5th Printing,borrowed >from my sponsor, where Dr. Silkworth's name >is not printed, and wonder what printing/ >edition his name began being printed in? The First Printing of the Second Edition on both pages xxiv and xxx. Tommy H in Baton Rouge IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4717. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: New information on Richmond Walker From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/22/2007 9:23:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Glenn, Thank you for this information about Rich Walker. I believe I helped you get in touch with his son, whom I met briefly while they were still living in New Hampshire. I did not know that Rich's father was a signer of the 1933 Humanist Manifesto, a document I sometimes review. It is interest- ing that this manifesto came out just a year before Bill Wilson had his spiritual experi- ence that led to the founding of AA. I believe Jung also published "Modern Man in Search of a Soul" around the same time. As you know, there have been additional Humanist Manifestoes but some of us continue to believe in a Higher Power of Love and Intelligence. When we will learn? Mel Barger melb@accesstoledo.com (melb at accesstoledo.com) ----- Original Message ----- From: Glenn Chesnut To: AAHistoryLovers group Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2007 6:12 PM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] New information on Richmond Walker Richmond Walker, the second most-published AA author (who wrote Twenty-Four Hours a Day) couldn't get sober until the death (in 1942) of his father, Joseph Walker, a very well known American atheist. Even then, Rich said in the lead he gave in Rutland, Vermont, on January 1, 1958, that when he fell down on his knees and prayed, he found himself saying, "God, if there is a God," help me get sober. He still wasn't sure, in other words, that his father might not have been right in claiming that God could not possibly exist. But "seeing is believing," as Rich said, and once he called upon God wholeheartedly, and began going to AA meetings in Boston, he was able to get sober and stay sober. His continued sobriety was the proof of God's reality and power. One of the most notorious atheistic documents of the 1930's was the Humanist Manifesto published in the May/June 1933 issue of The New Humanist (VI:3:1-5). One of the thirty-four well known figures who signed this manifesto was Joseph Walker, who a year earlier had published a book entitled "Humanism As a Way of Life." This Joseph Walker was the father of Richmond Walker, as I mentioned, the second most published AA author, who got sober in Boston in May 1942 -- Rich made the decision to attend AA and get sobered up while he was at his father Joseph's funeral. By 1948, Rich had come to a rich and deep understanding of God, and published the meditational book "Twenty-Four Hours a Day" under the sponsorship of the Daytona Beach AA group in Florida. According to Rich's son, their family went to the Unitarian church while he was growing up. So it is clear that, while Rich may have come to a strong and deeply committed belief in God's power and existence, that he still did not feel comfortable with the idea of the divinity of Christ and the literal infallibility of the Bible, and that sort of thing, and felt far more comfortable in an extremely liberal church like the Unitarian church. The kind of belief in God which Rich developed drew heavily on the ideas of the New England Transcendentalists (Ralph Waldo Emerson, Henry David Thoreau, and so on), New England Unitarianism, and nineteenth-century German idealist philosophy (where a large number of the faculty at Williams College, where he did his college degree, had done at least part of their graduate study in Germany). And according to Rich's son, Rich continued to read books on philosophy avidly all his life. According to Rich's son, their family spent the warmer months at a beachfront house in Cohasset, Massachusetts, not far from Boston, and the cold months in a house on the beach in Daytona Beach. The son says that Rich did not like cold weather, and was frequently seen wearing sweaters and heavy clothes when everyone else was in shirt sleeves, and used to ask plaintively quite early in the Fall, "Do we HAVE to wait until after Thanksgiving to go down to Florida?" Rich died on March 25, 1965, at the age of 72, with 22 years of sobriety. His son and daughter told me that he went out and spent the day on the beach, talking with his friends and enjoying himself -- his whole time was being spent in AA work of one kind or another by that point in his life -- came back home and went to bed, and when they tried to wake him the next morning, they discovered that he had passed away peacefully in his sleep. His prayer had been answered (paragraph 26 http://hindsfoot.org/rwvt.html ) "Above all, my faith in the Great Intelligence behind the universe, which can give me all the strength I need to face whatever life has to offer, is the foundation of my present life. When I die, my body will return to dust. Heaven is not any particular place in the sky, but my intelligence or soul, if it is in the proper condition, will return to the Great Intelligence behind the universe and will blend with that Great Intelligence and be at home again whence it came. My problem, in what is left of my life, is to keep my mind or intelligence in the proper condition -- by living with honesty, purity, unselfishness, love, and service -- so that when my time comes to go, my passing to a greater sphere of mind will be gentle and easy." - - - - SOURCES: Text of the 1933 Humanist Manifesto at: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/edwin_wilson/manifesto/ch13.html Information about Joseph Walker and the manifesto at: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/edwin_wilson/manifesto/ch6.html Richmond Walker chronology: http://hindsfoot.org/rwchrn.html Richmond Walker prayer: http://hindsfoot.org/rwvt.html [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4718. . . . . . . . . . . . Re:AA conventions receiving discounts From: Michael Hansen . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/22/2007 9:53:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Michael, In 2004 it was recommended that the General Service Conference support the General Service Board Policy as amended on November 2, 2003 which reads: "Whenever a discount or subsidy is that which would be offered to any other organization of similar size requiring a purchased service or product of similar character and magnitude, for example, convention rates at hotels, it may be accepted. Whenever a discount or subsidy is partly or in total offered because we are Alcoholics Anonymous, it must be declined." This text and more can be found in a book called Advisory Actions of the General Service Conference of Alcoholics Anonymous. 1951-2006, on page 54, under the year 2004. I hope that this helps. Your friend Michael H. billsfriend@att.net (billsfriend at att.net) - - - - From: (Jayaa82 at earthlink.net) The decision was if it is offered to all groups of a similar kind you can take it, if it is only offered to AA, you cannot. Jay Moore Archivist, Area 54 - - - - From: James Blair (jblair at videotron.ca) Also are you addressing discounts, perks or taxpayers' cash to offset costs? Jim - - - - From: "Mike B." (mikeb384 at verizon.net) Yes, there was an article in Box 4-5-9 about the discount at San Diego, and it was within a year after the 1995 convention. I worked in the convention and trade show industry for 41 years before retiring and it is indeed a common business practice among cities and convention bureaus, to offer rebates or underwriting on shuttle buses, etc. The amount is usually based on the number of hotel rooms the group picks up, and it amounts to the participating hotels slightly lowering their rates based on volume. As I recall, the article in 4-5-9 affirmed that it is all right for an AA group to accept a business discount that is normally offered in the marketplace. Mike B. - - - - From: "Righteous Thug" We have a situation where we are starting a convention and the city has offered us a 50% discount as a 501c3. This is offered to any 501c3. There's your answer. There is no requirement that AA conventions/groups, etc., have to pay more than the going rate. Looks like they're offered you the going rate for 501(c)(3)'s. Take it. /rt IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4719. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA conventions receiving discounts From: Debi Ubernosky . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/21/2007 11:55:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Go to the official AA website at http://www.aa.org and click on "services for members" http://www.aa.org/en_services_for_members.cfm then on that page, look in the left hand column at all the tiny print until you find one that says "AA Guidelines." on the AA Guidelines page, http://www.aa.org/en_services_for_members.cfm?PageID=36 there will be a pull-down list with all kinds of Guidelines that are published by GSO/AAWS. "Guidelines" are collections of experience and suggestions only, not mandates. But there is an "AA Guideline on Conferences, Conventions and Roundups" that you can download. http://www.aa.org/en_pdfs/mg-04_conferenceandconv.pdf You should find it to be very helpful. happy thanksgiving! debi - - - - From the moderator: see especially these two paragraphs. Selfsupport. Based on A.A. experience shared with G.S.O., committees have found it best not to solicit for outside donations of any kind. This is in keeping with our A.A. principle of selfsupport. (This does not pertain to ordinary business negotiations with the facility where the event is taking place.) Professional Assistance. Don't hesitate to avail yourself of assistance from local chamber of commerce officials and convention managers. They already know all about the problems you'll be facing, and they can give invaluable advice and assistance. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4720. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA conventions receiving discounts From: Lee Nickerson . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/22/2007 9:23:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The controversy and conflict that AAWS created in San Diego 1995 will long be remembered as a blatant violation of our principles of self-support, anonymity, corporate poverty and a faith in a higher power to ensure our survival. We do not solicit anything but goodwill from outside entities - ever. During the San Diego ignominy, a member of the GSO staff was so offended by AAWS's panhandling that he started a grass roots movement to get $5 from every AA member in order to return the $150,000 to the city treasurer. He soon "retired" from GSO. Box 4-5-9 is published by AAWS to provide information and defenses about itself and its actions. It is by no means objective. - - - - From the moderator: there was a lengthy discussion of the San Diego controversy in the AAHistoryLovers, where one can read in greater detail about both those who took Lee's position (above) and those who were on the other side of the debate. See especially: Message 4106 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/4106 Message 4110 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/4110 Glenn C. (South Bend IN) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4721. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Then a mental fog settled down From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/22/2007 9:42:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII An excerpt from Michael Quinion re the "mental fog" writing in International English from a British standpoint. BROWN STUDY [Q] From Ken Jaede: "I once read the expression brown study somewhere. I think it meant something like a morose mood or mental fog. Do you know the origin and true meaning of this expression?" [A] Its first meaning in the language was indeed a state of gloomy meditation. These days it usually means a state of abstraction, absent-mindedness or deep thought. The expression is old, dating at least from the sixteenth century. We've now lost the original meanings of both halves of the phrase and so it has long since turned into an idiom. Brown does refer to the colour, but it seems that in the late medieval period it could also mean no more than dark or gloomy and it was then transferred figuratively to the mental state. A study at that time could be a state of reverie or abstraction, a sense of the word that is long since obsolete. Much closer to AA, Dr Carl Gustav Jung also referred to a "mental fog" see NNDB on Carl Jung at the site listed below. http://www.nndb.com/people/910/000031817 where it says "But after sustaining a head injury, which incurred fainting spells requiring him to stay home from school, he became so disgusted with himself (upon over- hearing his father's fear for his future) that he managed to overcome both the physical handicap and his lazy habits to become a promising young scholar. But this transition, remarkable on its own, was marked by a peculiar incident that served to awaken Jung's interest in the nature of mind and in paranormal phenomena. One day while walking home from school, he experienced himself suddenly coming out of a profound mental fog. He felt as if he were finally "himself". But more remarkably he also felt that this self was simultaneously 12-year-old Carl Jung and a wise old man who had previously lived in the 1700s. Paranormal events of this nature, or more particularly experiences of trance mediumship and clair- voyance, were not unknown in Jung's family. And in college his curiosity of such phenomena led him to conduct considerable research, the skeptical results of which formed the basis of his doctoral thesis. Although Jung concluded that many self- proclaimed trance mediums were really "channeling" some kind of repressed psycho- logical disturbance, he would later state an unequivocal belief that some psychic phenomena, particularly telepathy, was genuine." I hope this helps. Going to Niagara Falls in 10 months... Shakey Mike Gwirtz Phila, Pa *************************************** In a message dated 11/21/2007 7:12:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, cmpvandango@yahoo.co.uk writes: Big Book page 6: "An all night place supplied me with a dozen glasses of ale .... Then a mental fog settled down. Gin would fix that. So two bottles, and -- oblivion." The question raised by one of our members is whether anyone in this web group can enlarge on what Bill meant by a "mental fog." Does anyone have a medical definition of this meaning ? Many Thanks Carl P IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4722. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Then a mental fog settled down From: Suzanne Kemerly . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/21/2007 7:16:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Anybody ever hear of a "blackout" ??? - - - - From: "ricktompkins" (ricktompkins at comcast.net) I can give you an AA definition ... getting a second wind! Or, regular bad planning...(the gin fix). - - - - From: David Jones (jonesd926 at aol.com) Bill W. could possibly referring to the bedevilments to be found on page 52. Dave IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4723. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Old lists of group membership requirements From: hartsell . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/21/2007 10:58:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Terry, you have come across "The Little Rock Approach Plan", which by the way, was pretty dang effective. I lived in Arkansas for about 17 years from 1969, and when I first moved back up there it was a surprise to find that they had their own "approach" to "working" the A.A. Program, but what was really interesting was that it seemed to have been working very well for them for quite some time. There exists a book on their approach; I had a copy which I loaned to a half-way house in Tyler years ago and never got back. There have been a number of semi-formal approaches to "working" the Program in various cities and locations around the country over the years, including the Dallas/Ft Worth area. Most all had more in common than not, if they were effective. Sherry - - - - From: "Debi Ubernosky" (dkuber1990 at verizon.net) I used to have a xerox copy of the collection of "membership rules" that all the groups sent in to the central office at Bill's request when he was working on the traditions. I think you can get a copy of this from GSO. See the discussion of these rules in the 12 & 12, the chapter on Tradition 3, pages 139-141. - - - - From: "Mitchell K." (dkuber1990 at verizon.net) The Jackson Michigan Plan is very similar to the Little Rock one. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4724. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr. Silkworth''s name AND Dr. Jung''s name in the BB From: Ron Sessions . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/23/2007 1:14:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII 1st Printing of the 2nd Edition (1955) is also the first time Dr. Jung's name appears in the Big Book (2nd Edition - pg 27) for those who might like to know. Ron - - - - Message 4716 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/4716 Re: When did Dr. Silkworth's name get printed in the BB? The First Printing of the Second Edition on both pages xxiv and xxx. Tommy H in Baton Rouge IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4725. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "Charlie" sober in OG a year before Bill & Bob? From: Charles Grotts . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/26/2007 8:48:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII You can ask Chuck's wife, Lee. She still goes to meetings at the Marina Center and Studio Group although she's been in a hospice recently on account of a broken knee. - - - - Message 4709 from jt417552@aol.com (jt417552 at aol.com) I remember in the early 70's ... in Santa Monica ... Chuck helped a very old man with a beard and a funny looking cane out of his car and up the steps ... The old guy was helped to a seat and to my surprise became the main speaker that day. He told of getting sober in the Oxford group a year before Bill W and joining AA in time to help write part of Chapter Three. The now deceased Chuck and his wife Lee Cohen were solid AA's, both in their early 60's ... Do any of you know of a "Charlie" who got sober in the Oxford Group a year before Bill W. and Dr. Bob got sober, who later became an AA member? Thanks, JT IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4726. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Old lists of group membership requirements From: Jim S. . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/24/2007 11:46:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Did those groups keep records of the prospects who didn't meet their requirements and were refused membership? I'm interested in learning how many of the "rejects" eventually died from alcoholism. Jim S. --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "hartsell" wrote: > > Terry, you have come across "The Little Rock > Approach Plan", which by the way, was pretty > dang effective. I lived in Arkansas for about > 17 years from 1969, and when I first moved > back up there it was a surprise to find that > they had their own "approach" to "working" the > A.A. Program, but what was really interesting > was that it seemed to have been working very > well for them for quite some time. > > There exists a book on their approach; I had a > copy which I loaned to a half-way house in > Tyler years ago and never got back. > > There have been a number of semi-formal > approaches to "working" the Program in > various cities and locations around the > country over the years, including the > Dallas/Ft Worth area. Most all had more in > common than not, if they were effective. > > Sherry > > - - - - > > From: "Debi Ubernosky" > (dkuber1990 at verizon.net) > > I used to have a xerox copy of the collection > of "membership rules" that all the groups sent > in to the central office at Bill's request > when he was working on the traditions. I > think you can get a copy of this from GSO. > > See the discussion of these rules in the > 12 & 12, the chapter on Tradition 3, pages > 139-141. > > - - - - > > From: "Mitchell K." > (dkuber1990 at verizon.net) > > The Jackson Michigan Plan is very similar > to the Little Rock one. > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4727. . . . . . . . . . . . Ed Webster and Dr. Bob From: dino . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/24/2007 4:33:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Was Ed Webster sponsored by Dr. Bob? When Dr. Bob said we needed a blue collar approach to some of the literature, was it Ed Webster who then wrote the 4 early Akron pamphlets? - - - - From the moderator, Glenn C: we need a good short biographical article on Ed Webster, Barry Collins, and early Minneapolis AA. What I have been able to dig up is the following. The Hindsfoot material, which has some photographs, but only scratches the surface in terms of giving a thorough historical account: http://hindsfoot.org/ed01.html http://hindsfoot.org/ed02.html http://hindsfoot.org/mnfound1.html http://hindsfoot.org/edbarrm1.html http://hindsfoot.org/mnclass1.html There is a History of Greater Minneapolis Intergroup at: http://www.aaminneapolis.org/pages/history.html "Alcoholics Anonymous began in Minneapolis with a 12 Step call made during the Armistice Day Blizzard in November of 1940 by two men visiting from Chicago. [Chan F. & Bill L.] The first AA meetings in Minneapolis were eventually held at 2218 First Avenue South. It didn’t take long for those first meetings to spawn new meetings at new locations, often in the homes of AA members. By the early sixties Alcoholics Anonymous had grown beyond Minneapolis, with meetings in the suburbs, including Richfield, Robbinsdale, Fridley and Columbia Heights. "Due to this growth, the AA members of Greater Minneapolis realized there was a need for further reaching 12 step services. They had the vision of an Intergroup Service Office that would provide vital 12 step services, such as phone answering 24 hours a day by sober members of AA, lists of AA members willing to do 12 step calls and a published AA meeting directory. Your Service Office is one of 500 Intergroup/Central Offices in the United States and Canada. The first Intergroup Office in Minnesota was opened in St. Paul in 1966. "The Minneapolis Intergroup Office that you know today was opened in September 1968 at 24 East Franklin Avenue. Since then, the office has moved several times. Many our members recall visiting the office at 6300 Walker Avenue in St. Louis Park, which was our home for 15 years. The office moved to its current location, 7204 West 27th Street in St Louis Park August 1, 2000 over 6 years ago." There is also a brief reference to the beginning of Minneapolis AA on silkworth.net: http://www.silkworth.net/aahistory_names/namesp.html "Pat C. - Minneapolis A.A.; Chicago's Chan F. & Bill L. carried him message 1940; tried start A.A. & club same time." (Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age, page 95) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4728. . . . . . . . . . . . Barry Leach Living Sober From: diazeztone . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/27/2007 9:24:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I am making new page on my aabibliography.com website regarding Barry Leach. What biography did he write about Lois Wilson? was he involved in Lois Remembers? Does anyone have photo of Barry they could furnish me? The page is http://www.aabibliography.com/barry_leach_living_sober.html Any Member of this group have info they want to add, please contact me. Is Barry's partner still alive? anyone know him? or how to contact him? I was also wondering if anyone had any idea of how to contact Audrey Borden mentioned in one of the posts. She is the author of the book the History of Gay People in Alcoholics Anonymous. Haworth Press 2007 thanks in advance LD Pierce editor aabibliography.com sober 12 years june 15 2007 eztone at hotmail dot com IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4729. . . . . . . . . . . . An AA video from the UK From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/26/2007 8:08:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII AA in the UK has a great video on their web site. See the video here. It is very good. "Alcoholics Anonymous UK Newcomers: http://www.alcoholics-anonymous.org.uk/newcomer/videoh.shtml Australia AA has a great set of posters (previously posted). Yours in Service, Shakey Mike Gwirtz Going to 12th Annual National AA Archives Workshop in Niagara Falls NY September 11-14, 2008 contacts Tom B 716-895-8461 Tombar@aol.com (Tombar at aol.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4730. . . . . . . . . . . . Comparative AA growth in different countries From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/28/2007 8:20:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: Shakey1aa@aol.com (Shakey1aa at aol.com) Are there any membership numbers showing how the growth of AA membership in the USA/Canada is compared to AA throughout the rest of the world? And what has been the membership numbers of AA since its beginnings in the USA/Canada alone and in comparison to the rest of the world? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4731. . . . . . . . . . . . Charlie year prior to AA From: free87dom . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/26/2007 6:07:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII While searching for AA speaker tapes I ran across a Charlie Brockwell tape where he claims to be AA # 6. Says he started the sober life on 1-5-1934 by using the Bible and willpower. Claims Dr Bob heard about him and asked him to come to Akron and help with Big Book. He uses his arrival in Akron, 2-7-1936 as his AA sobriety date, which put him behind Fitz Mayo. Claims responsibility for the last sentence on page 164 " May God bless you and keep you - until then." Seems funny his name does not appear in AA literature if he was that helpful? I used Dicobe Tapes Inc. Bellevue NE www.dicobe.com 1 800 999 3381 I have 2 tapes 1045 Charlie B. at San Luis Obispo, California 4-26-1976 9568 Charlie B. 6th AA member, 2 AA talks in California 8-15-1980 Hope this is helpful. Blessings Richard IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4732. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr. Schneider''s story From: terrylwalton . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/26/2007 6:25:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In the Old-Time Minneapolis A.A. Beginners Classes Instructor's Outline: http://hindsfoot.org/mnclass1.html In the material for Class #1 it says: "(5a) Alcoholics have a high intelligence -- keenly reactive nervous systems -- tell Dr. Schneider's story -- 400 families -- Johns Hopkins." Who or what was the "Dr. Schneider's story -- 400 families -- Johns Hopkins" about? thank you, Terry Walton IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4733. . . . . . . . . . . . Those who stayed on ... showed improvement? From: flat412acrehouse . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/22/2007 8:19:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Message 4665 asked about a sentence in the Foreword to the Second Edition: "Of alcoholics who came to A.A. and really tried, 50% got sober at once and remained that way; 25% sobered up after relapses, and among the remainder, those who stayed on with A.A. showed improvement." The question asked what it meant when it said they "showed improvement"? We got no response from the experts. I therefore was wondering if any members of the group had any ideas as to where I could look to do a bit more research. Thanking you kindly many gentle blessings leah - - - - From the moderator: again, this is a very good question. The second edition of the Big Book came out in 1955. At that point in AA history, were there people who felt that it was doing at least a little bit of good if alcoholics could be persuaded to drink a little bit less when they went on binges? Or went on binges a little bit less often? I know this contradicts present AA philosophy, which is that only total abstinence will work. But if this statement is being made in the Foreword to the Second Edition of the Big Book, were there AA people at that point who felt differently? Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana, USA) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4734. . . . . . . . . . . . Significant December Dates in A.A. History From: chesbayman56 . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/2/2007 12:02:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Significant December Dates in A.A. History Dec 1934 - Bill & Lois start attending Oxford Group meetings. Dec 1934 to May 1935 - Bill works with alcoholics, but fails to sober any of them. Lois reminds him HE is sober. Dec 1938 - Twelve Steps written. Nov/Dec 1939 - Akron group withdrawals from association with Oxford Group. Meetings moved from T Henry & Clarence Williams to Dr Bob and other members homes. Dec 1939 - First AA group in mental institution, Rockland State Hospital, NY. Dec 1939 - 1st home meeting in Los Angeles at Kaye M.'s house. Dec 1939 - Matt Talbot Club has 88 members, uses wagons to collect old furniture to recondition & sell, not A.A., used A.A. program, material, marked 1st effort reach alcoholics outside married middle- class category. Dec 1940 - 1st AA group formed in St. Louis, Missouri. Dec 1940 - group started Ashtabula, Ohio due to Plain Dealer articles. A.A. Cleveland has about 30 groups. Dec 1948 - Dr. Bob's last major talk, in Detroit. Dec 1950 - Grapevine article signed by both Bill and Dr Bob recommend establishing AA General Service Conference. Dec 1955 - 'Man on the Bed' painting by Robert M. first appeared in Grapevine. Painting originally called 'Came to Believe' Dec 1982 - Nell Wing retires from GSO after 35 years of service. Dec 1, 1940 - Chicago Daily Tribune begins a series of articles on AA by Nall Hamilton. Dec 5, 1985 - Dave B, founder of Montreal Group dies weeks before 50th anniversary. His story added to the 4th Edition Big Book. Dec 6, 1939 - Bert the Tailor lends Works Publishing $1000. Dec 6, 1979 - Akron Beacon reports death of Henrietta Sieberling. Dec 7, 1949 - Sister Ignatia received Poverello Medal on behalf of A.A. Dec 10, 1975 - Birds of a Feather AA group for pilots is formed. Dec 11, 1934 - Bill admitted to Towns Hosp 4th/last time (fall '33, '34 in summer, midsummer and final admittance). Dec 11, 1941 - Dallas Morning News reports 1st AA group formed in Dallas. Dec 12, 1934 - Bill has Spiritual Experience at Towns Hospital. Dec 12, 1937 - Bill meets with Rockefeller Foundation and tries to get money. Dec 13, 1937 - Rockland State Mental Hospital takes patients to meeting in New Jersey. Dec 13 or 14, 1934 - Ebby visited Bill at hospital, brought William James's book, "Varieties of Religious Experience". Dec 19, 1939 - Los Angeles holds their 1st AA meeting. Dec 20, 1945 - Rowland H dies (he carried the Oxford Group message to Ebby). Dec 27, 1893 - Rev Samuel Shoemaker is born. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4735. . . . . . . . . . . . Richmond Walker''s The 7 Points of AA From: delorac06 . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/1/2007 11:09:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi, I was reading about Richmond Walker and saw he wrote a pamphlet called "The 7 Points of Alcoholics Anonymous." Could someone tell me what they are or how to access them? Thanks, Carol C IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4736. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Charlie year prior to AA From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/28/2007 9:07:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII How much credence can you put in claims that have no attestation from contemporary sources? There are any number of lists around of early members and the name Charlie Brockwell is not on any that I am aware of. I recently came across a list titled "First 226 Members of Akron, OH A.A. Group." http://hindsfoot.org/akrn226b.html It listed persons we know did not stay sober as well as many, like Sylvia Kauffman, Arch Trowbridge, and J. D. Holmes who had Akron connections but who ended up founding AA groups in areas of the midwest outside of Ohio. I think the question should be, what evidence is there to support Charlie B's claims? Tommy H in Baton Rouge - - - - Message 4731 from "free87dom" (RWhite4281 sy aol.com) While searching for AA speaker tapes I ran across a Charlie Brockwell tape where he claims to be AA # 6. Says he started the sober life on 1-5-1934 by using the Bible and willpower. Claims Dr Bob heard about him and asked him to come to Akron and help with Big Book. He uses his arrival in Akron, 2-7-1936 as his AA sobriety date, which put him behind Fitz Mayo. Claims responsibility for the last sentence on page 164 " May God bless you and keep you - until then." Seems funny his name does not appear in AA literature if he was that helpful? Richard IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4737. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Charlie year prior to AA From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/29/2007 7:50:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I've met Charle a few times. If I remember correctly, the first time was at the Inter- national in New Orleans. I had also spoken with Nell Wing about Charlie and her recollections were that some of Charlie's own recollections were just that, Charlie's recollections. He was an old timer, but no one is exactly sure of exact dates. Much of the documentation doesn't place him that far back and this is the first time I heard about the stated Akron connection. The 1936 era would have nothing to do with the writing of the book and I don't think Dr. Bob would have called him to Akron without that event making it into any documentation or oral histories. - - - - From: Shakey1aa@aol.com (Shakey1aa at aol.com) George S. of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, was sober about two to three years before Jimmy B. came to Philadelphia in October 1940, by working with Dr Saul. He however did not come into AA until he made his first AA meeting. YIS Shakey Mike Gwirtz IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4738. . . . . . . . . . . . Approach Program From: Rotax Steve . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/29/2007 12:04:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I was reading the Grapevine article from 1947 called "Little Rock Plan", which had been recently shared. It mentions a publication which is given to a prospect called the "Approach Program". Do any of you know about this piece and/or would any of you have a transcript? Thank you. ~ Rotax Steve IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4739. . . . . . . . . . . . Dec. 10-11 Towns Hospital Candlelight Ceremony From: Robt Woodson . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/2/2007 10:59:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII 8:30 p.m. December 10, 2007 8:30 p.m. December 11, 2007 - - - - Hello all, Just a reminder that the Candlelight Ceremony at Towns Hospital to commemorate Bill's spiritual experience, which some of us were able to attend last year, is coming again soon. It is included on Steppingstone's Calendar of Events this year http://www.steppingstones.org/calendar.html and is set for the following times and dates. Hope to see you there, Woody in Akron Robt Woodson (wdywdsn at sbcglobal.net) - - - - December 10th, 2007 ~ Candle Lighting Ceremony on the eve of Bill's spiritual awakening, 8:30 pm. Join Jose Pablo S. and his family and friends who will travel from Mexico to mark this important event in history. Meet across the street from the former Town's Hospital at 88th Street and Central Park West. Dress warm. December 11th, 2007 ~ Candlelight Vigil cele- brating Bill Wilson's spiritual awakening, 8:30 pm. Join Jose Pablo S. and his family and friends as they take a moment to commemo- rate the day of Bill's spiritual awakening at Town's Hospital. Meet across the street from the former hospital at 88th Street and Central Park West. Dress warm and bring a candle! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4740. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr. Bob article in Faith magazine From: diazeztone . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/2/2007 5:43:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There is one supposed article written by Dr. Bob appearing in either "Your Faith" or "Faith" magazine during the summer or fall of 1939 that no one has been able to find yet. It was supposed to be a really great article. Even the library of Congress is missing the issue of "Your Faith" that it is rumored to be in. That article is mentioned in "Dr. Bob and the GoodOldtimers". Anybody know anything about this? This question is posed on gsowatch.aamo.info/ and has not been answered thanks LD P nw okla aabibliography.com eztone at hotmail IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4741. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Those who stayed on ... showed improvement? From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/29/2007 4:14:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A member at one of the first AA groups I attended (1984) was known as "Slipper Ron". He used to share that although he had been attending AA meetings for 20 years, he had never managed to make more than a year's sobriety before going on another bender. However, he said he was grateful to AA, as that pattern of drinking had probably saved his life, because in those 20 years he had not been drunk for more than a few months in total. - - - - From: "Mike H" (heat_cool2004 at yahoo.com) Well Leah, I guess it would be open to sub- jective interpretation. "Showed improvement" to me would mean they drank less, got bloto less often, didn't go to jail as often -- and maybe, just maybe, they kept coming back. Mike - - - - From: egojames007@aol.com (egojames007 at aol.com) I took it to mean that althought they weren't drinking, their behavior was still not considered sober. They were tortured by the obsession, and the spiritual malady was present daily. They didn't work the steps, yet they were not drinking (the dry drunk brigade). - - - - Original message 4733 from "flat412acrehouse" (leah at leahmeadows.wanadoo.co.uk) In the Foreword to the Second Edition: "Of alcoholics who came to A.A. and really tried, 50% got sober at once and remained that way; 25% sobered up after relapses, and among the remainder, those who stayed on with A.A. showed improvement." What did it mean when it said they "showed improvement"? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4742. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Richmond Walker''s The 7 Points of AA From: Bernadette and John . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/3/2007 2:09:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have a Revised Edition of the 7 Points of Alcoholics Anonymous which Richmond Walker wrote, as his last book, in 1956. It was reprinted by Glen Abbey Books and I purchased one of these reprints through Amazon. It states on the back cover that it is the summation of Walker's knowledge on the practice and fundamentals of 12 Step Recovery. The 7 Points outlined and which he expands on are: Admission, Fellowship, Surrender, Inventory, Restitution, Live Today and Service. Bernadette MacL. King City Group Ontario, Canada - - - - From the moderator: There was also a Hazelden reprint of this book. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4743. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Significant December Dates in A.A. History From: John Lee . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/3/2007 1:54:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The wife of T. Henry Williams was Clarace Williams, not Clarence Williams. You're probably thinking of Cleveland's Clarence Snyder who led the movement to leave the house meetings held at the Portage Way home of T. Henry and Clarace. Not sure the breakaway group in Akron met at "other members' homes" in Akron. The official literature indicates that Clarence's bunch met in Cleveland and that the Akron breakaway members met only once at Doctor Bob's house before moving to King School. John Lee Pittsburgh - - - - (chesbayman56 at yahoo.com) wrote: Significant December Dates in A.A. History Nov/Dec 1939 - Akron group withdrawals from association with Oxford Group. Meetings moved from T Henry & Clarence Williams to Dr Bob and other members homes. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4744. . . . . . . . . . . . Pg 31 "right about face" From: flat412acrehouse . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/5/2007 3:14:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dearest Glenn I hope that you are in good spirits. From reading messages #3374 and #1535 I believe that "Right about face" which appears on page 31 second paragraph ... "If anyone who is showing inability to control his drinking can do the right-about-face and drink like a gentleman, our hats are off to him." ... would mean to do a turn around of 308 degrees and/or to do the complete opposite of what you were doing before. I was wondering further though where this phrase originated from. Thanking you kindly yours in serenity leah - - - - Dear Leah, It's a military term. Let's say I was asked to appear before my commanding officer in his office, and he then dismisses me. I am standing at attention facing him, so I salute, then stick my right foot behind me, and pivot on the toe of my right shoe, and the heel of my left shoe, turning around 180 degrees, and then march back out of his office. Bill Wilson would have done that many a time during his service in the First World War. Glenn C. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4745. . . . . . . . . . . . Doctor on pg 122 in The Family Afterwards From: flat412acrehouse . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/5/2007 2:54:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dearest Glenn I do hope that you are well. My group were wondering who the Doctor being quoted is on page 122 in the Big Book, in the chapter on The Family Afterwards. "A doctor said to us, 'years of living with an alcoholic is almost sure to make any wife or child neurotic. The entire family is, to some extent, ill.'" I enjoyed looking at your work on names and events in The Big Book however I can not seem to find who the Doctor is. I would be grateful if anyone could advise. Much peace to you leah - - - - Dear Leah, I can't find the answer to this in any of the references that I normally use. Some medical person however had clearly noted that the spouse and children were turned into what we would today call codependents, and adult children of alco- holics, and so on. A very perceptive observation for that time, because people didn't really start talking much about that sort of thing until later on in the twentieth century. Does anyone in the web group have any ideas about who this doctor could have been? Glenn C. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4746. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Significant December Dates in A.A. History From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/5/2007 1:35:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The Akron meetings moved from T Henry and Clarace William's home to Dr Bob's house in October 1939 (AA Comes of Age pg viii says "summer" but that's wrong). The Akron meetings moved from Dr Bob's home to King's School in January 1940. Cleveland had its first group in existence shortly after the Big Book was published in April 1939. Timelines or listings of dates should really be validated and cross-referenced to corrobor- ating sources or there is as much risk in distributing erroneous information. If anyone would like a detailed AA History Timeline that shows multiple corroborating reference sources (by books and page numbers) please send an email to ArtSheehan@msn.com (ArtSheehan at msn.com) and I'll send you one (consider it a Christmas present). I usually do this once a year. Please DO NOT (repeat DO NOT) reply to "AAHistoryLovers at yahoo.com" or it will complicate things for the AAHL moderator. Send the email directly to me. Cheers Arthur - - - - Message 4743 from John Lee (johnlawlee at yahoo.com) The wife of T. Henry Williams was Clarace Williams, not Clarence Williams. You're probably thinking of Cleveland's Clarence Snyder who led the movement to leave the house meetings held at the Portage Way home of T. Henry and Clarace. Not sure the breakaway group in Akron met at "other members' homes" in Akron. The official literature indicates that Clarence's bunch met in Cleveland and that the Akron breakaway members met only once at Doctor Bob's house before moving to King School. John Lee Pittsburgh - - - - (chesbayman56 at yahoo.com) wrote: Significant December Dates in A.A. History Nov/Dec 1939 - Akron group withdrawals from association with Oxford Group. Meetings moved from T Henry & Clarence Williams to Dr Bob and other members homes. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4747. . . . . . . . . . . . Serenity Prayer From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/6/2007 8:31:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Group, Ever since reading Elizabeth Sifton's book, The Serenity Prayer: Faith and Politics in Times of Peace and War, I've hoped that I would be able someday to resolve the discrepancy in the dating of that prayer. As many of you already know, Sifton is the daughter of Reinhold Niebuhr who is generally acknowleged to be the author of the prayer. The problem is that Sifton is quite sure the prayer was written in 1943. A reliable AA story, however, places the prayer in a newspaper column or obituary note from mid-1941. Ruth Hock was in the office when the paper was brought in, which if I understand things correctly means it could not have happened much later than that. If it were not for that detail, I would tend to ignore the problem as a dating error. The website Newspaperarchive.com allows searching by phrases, so that seemed like a good place to start. A prayer which is too close to be coincidence appears in a Syracuse paper dated January 1936. It begins with the phrase "God grant us the courage . ." but is otherwise almost identical. It was quoted in a talk given by the executive secretary of the YWCA. The present administrator of the Syracuse YWCA was so kind as to dig out the report of the meeting in which that talk was given. Unfortunately nothing appears in the witten record. I'd hoped that there would be a attribution. Around 1940, a speaker in State College Pennsylvania included the quote beginning with "Give us the serenity. . " although not specifically as a prayer. A version identical to the AA one was included in a Sunday School column in an Ohio paper in 1941. That seems to be as far as I can get with it. An early biography of Niebuhr gave the date of the prayer's composition as 1934, although Sifton (who was born in the late 30s) is sure it was a misprint. In view of the newspaper records, I suppose that the 1934 date is correct. Does anyone have anything to add to this? One interesting detail is that the first two versions of the prayer were both quoted by women with YWCA backgrounds. My guess at this point is that the prayer was used in the YWCA before becoming widely known through newspapers and AA. Maybe Niebuhr used it in a talk to a YWCA audience, or a related group. Pure speculation, but who knows? Cora IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4748. . . . . . . . . . . . AA Timeline Offer From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/7/2007 6:54:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Well, the response to the offer of a timeline history has been rather remarkable. I lost sight of how large the membership of AAHistoryLovers has become. I'm going to add new information before distributing it and set up bulk email distribution lists. The timeline will be bulk emailed next Monday or Tuesday (Dec 10 or 11) to the folks who asked for a copy. All email addresses in the bulk email will be in the BCC section to keep your email addresses private. Cheers Arthur (ArtSheehan at msn.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4749. . . . . . . . . . . . When did intergroups and central offices first appear? From: sober_in_nc . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/9/2007 12:10:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I am trying to find out about the history of intergroups/central offices. I found one message that seem to touch on the topic, Message 2629: "I live in Area 53 (Central and Southeast Ohio) and we have the third oldest Intergroup." What are the two oldest? Does anyone have a history of the first few intergroups and central offices? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4750. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Serenity Prayer From: diazeztone . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/10/2007 12:30:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII As published in August/September 1992 BOX-459 For many years, long after the Serenity Prayer became attached to the very fabric of the Fellowship's life and thought, its exact origin, its actual author, have played a tantalizing game of hide and seek with researchers, both in and out of A.A. The facts of how it came to be used by A.A. a half century ago are much easier to pinpoint. Early in 1942, writes Bill W., in A.A. Comes of Age, a New York member, Jack, brought to everyone's attention a caption in a routine New York Herald Tribune obituary that read: "God grant us the serenity to accept the things we cannot change, courage to change the things we can, and wisdom to know the difference." Everyone in A.A.'s burgeoning office on Manhattan's Vesey Street was struck by the power and wisdom contained in the prayer's thoughts. "Never had we seen so much A.A. in so few words," Bill writes. Someone suggested that the prayer be printed on a small, wallet- sized card, to be included in every piece of outgoing mail. Ruth Hock, the Fellowship's first (and nonalcoholic) secretary, contacted Henry S., a Washington D.C. member, and a professional printer, asking him what it would cost to order a bulk printing. Henry's enthusiastic response was to print 500 copies of the prayer, with the remark: "Incidentally, I am only a heel when I'm drunk ... so naturally, there could be no charge for anything of this nature." "With amazing speed," writes Bill, "the Serenity Prayer came into general use and took its place alongside our two other favorites, the Lord's Prayer and the Prayer of St. Francis. Thus did the "accidental" noticing of an unattributed prayer, printed alongside a simple obituary of an unknown individual, open the way toward the prayer's daily use by thousands upon thousands of A.A.s worldwide. But despite years of research by numerous individuals, the exact origin of the prayer is shrouded in overlays of history, even mystery. Moreover, every time a researcher appears to uncover the definitive source, another one crops up to refute the former's claim, at the same time that it raises new, intriguing facts. What is undisputed is the claim of authorship by the theologian Dr. Reinhold Niebuhr, who recounted to interviewers on several occasions that he had written the prayer as a "tag line" to a sermon he had delivered on Practical Christianity. Yet even Dr. Niebuhr added at least a touch of doubt to his claim, when he told one interviewer, "Of course, it may have been spooking around for years, even centuries, but I don't think so. I honestly do believe that I wrote it myself." Early in World War II, with Dr. Niebuhr's permission, the prayer was printed on cards and distributed to the troops by the U.S.O. By then it had also been reprinted by the National Council of Churches, as well as Alcoholics Anonymous. Dr. Niebuhr was quite accurate in suggesting that the prayer may have been "spooking around" for centuries. "No one can tell for sure who first wrote the Serenity Prayer," writes Bill in A.A. Comes of Age. "Some say it came from the early Greeks; others think it was from the pen of an anonymous English poet; still others claim it was written by an American Naval officer ...." Other attributions have gone as far afield as ancient Sanskrit texts, Aristotle, St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas and Spinoza. One A.A. member came across the Roman philo- sopher Cicero's Six Mistakes of Man, one of which reads: "The tendency to worry about things that cannot be changed or corrected." No one has actually found the prayer's text among the writings of these alleged, original sources. What are probably truly ancient, as with the above quote from Cicero, are the prayer's themes of acceptance, courage to change what can be changed and the free letting go of what is out of one's ability to change. The search for pinpointing origins of the prayer has been like the peeling of an onion. For example, in July 1964, the A.A. Grapevine received a clipping of an article that had appeared in the Paris Herald Tribune, by the paper's correspondent in Koblenz, then in West Germany. "In a rather dreary hall of a converted hotel, overlooking the Rhine at Koblenz," the correspondent wrote, is a tablet inscribed with the following words: "God give me the detachment to accept those things I cannot alter; the courage to alter those things I can alter; and the wisdom to distinguish the one thing from the other." These words were attributed, the correspondent wrote, to an 18th century pietist, Friedrich Oetinger (1702-1782). Moreover, the plaque was affixed to a wall in a hall where modern day troops and company commanders of the new German army were trained "in the principles of management and . . . behavior of the soldier citizen in a democratic state." Here, at last, thought A.A. researchers, was concrete evidence -- quote, author, date -- of the Serenity Prayer's original source. That conviction went unchallenged for fifteen years. Then in 1979 came material, shared with G.S.O.'s Beth K., by Peter T., of Berlin. Peter's research threw the authenticity of 18th century authorship out the window. But it also added more tantalizing facts about the plaque's origin. "The first form of the prayer," Beth wrote back, originated with Boethius, the Roman philosopher (480-524 A.D.), and author of the book, Consolations of Philosophy. The prayer's thoughts were used from then on by "religious- like people who had to suffer first by the English, later the Prussian puritans . . . then the Pietists from southwest Germany . . . then A.A.s . . . and through them, the West Germans after the Second World War." Moreover, Beth continued, after the war, a north German University professor, Dr. Theodor Wilhelm, who had started a revival of spiritual life in West Germany, had acquired the "little prayer" from Canadian soldiers. He had written a book in which he had included the prayer, without attribution, but which resulted in the prayer's appearance in many different places, such as army officer's halls, schools and other institutions. The professor's nom de plume? Friedrich Oetinger, the 18th century pietist! Wilhelm had apparently selected the pseudonym Oetinger out of admira- tion of his south German forebears. Back in 1957, another G.S.O. staff member, Anita R., browsing in a New York bookstore, came upon a beautifully bordered card, on which was printed: "Almighty God, our Heavenly Father, give us Serenity to accept what cannot be changed, Courage to change what should be changed, and Wisdom to know the one from the other; through Jesus Christ, our Lord." The card, which came from a bookshop in England, called it the "General's Prayer," dating it back to the fourteenth century! There are still other claims, and no doubt more unearthings will continue for years to come. In any event, Mrs. Reinhold Niebuhr told an interviewer that her husband was definitely the prayer's author, that she had seen the piece of paper on which he had written it, and that her husband -- now that there were numerous variations of wording -- "used and preferred" the following form: "God, give us grace to accept with serenity the things that cannot be changed, Courage to change the things which should be changed, and the wisdom to distinguish the one from the other." While all of these searchings are intriguing, challenging, even mysterious, they pale in significance when compared to the fact that, for fifty years, the prayer has become so deeply imbedded into the heart and soul of A.A. thinking, living, as well as its philosophy, that one could almost believe that the prayer originated in the A.A. experience itself. Bill made this very point years ago, in thanking an A.A. friend for the plaque upon which the prayer was inscribed: "In creating A.A., the Serenity Prayer has been a most valuable building block -- indeed a corner-stone." And speaking of cornerstones, and mysteries and "coincidences" -- the building where G.S.O. is now located borders on a stretch of New York City's 120th St., between Riverside Drive and Broadway (where the Union Theological Seminary is situated). It's called Reinhold Niebuhr Place. \LD Pierce aabibliography.coim IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4751. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Serenity Prayer From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/11/2007 11:36:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Cora Reinhold Niebuhr's daughter and her mother appear to have both erred in recollection of when the prayer was written. A Niebuhr bio- grapher, June Bingham, also claimed the prayer was written in 1943. There is, however, a means of authoritatively establishing the year when the prayer was written. A January 1950 Grapevine article titled "The Serenity Prayer ...it's [sic] origin is traced..." contains commentary from Niebuhr on the original wording of the prayer and notes that it was written in 1932 while Niebuhr was at the Union Theological Seminary in NY City. More significantly, the article notes that Niebuhr later gave permission to Howard Chandler Robbins to include a copy of the prayer in a book that Robbins was compiling. Robbins was a close friend of Niebuhr and former Dean of the Cathedral of St John the Divine in NYC. The book of prayer he compiled is titled "Way of Light: a Manual of Praise, Prayer and Meditation." A reference on the internet gives its Library of Congress call number as BV4801 .R6 1933. This establishes the book's publication date as 1933. If the prayer is in the book (and I believe it is) it would confirm that Niebuhr had the prayer as early as 1932 as is claimed (or 1933 at the latest). One of the exasperating traits clouding research on the Serenity Prayer is the proliferation of contradictory claims of dates, wordings and authorship (AA is a prime contributor to this confusion). However, I think the Niebuhr/Robbins link resolves the dating matter. Cheers Arthur IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4752. . . . . . . . . . . . The Serenity Prayer and Boethius: if in that author, then where? From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/11/2007 6:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have read statements repeatedly in AA literature, claiming that the Serenity Prayer or an early version of it occurs somewhere in the writings of Boethius. Now here is the problem. I have searched through Boethius' "Consolation of Philosophy," and cannot find anything that looks even remotely like the Serenity Prayer, or the sentiments expressed in that prayer. I could be wrong on this, and I could be overlooking something. But I think that we need to either find a passage in Boethius which can be matched up with the Serenity Prayer, or quit blindly citing him as a possible early source of those ideas. Boethius's most famous work was his book called "The Consolation of Philosophy" which he wrote while he was in prison awaiting death. Boethius also wrote some other works, including some on philosophical logic, and works on the doctrine of the Trinity and on the divinity of Christ, and I have not checked any of these. I have a strong suspicion here that the person who originally suggested Boethius's name was simply guessing, because Boethius (locked up in prison) does in fact discuss in the "Consolation" the way in which our lives are sometimes at the mercy of forces we cannot control. But that was an utter commonplace in ancient Greek and Roman literature in general, going back for centuries and centuries. Why pick out the unlikely figure of Boethius to cite, if that is all it is? I have read Boethius myself because my own scholarly specialty for 40 years was the period of the Fall of the Roman Empire. It is very unlikely that Reinhold Niebuhr however had ever done more than glance casually at Boethius' "Consolation," if he had ever read any of it at all. Niebuhr's specialty was modern theology and modern Christian ethics. Reading books from one of the darkest part of the Dark Ages in enormous and careful detail was certainly not a normal part of the scholarly training given to Protestant theologians in the Calvinist tradition during Niebuhr's youth. The Calvinist tradition was notoriously anti-medieval in its ideas about what young theology students should be reading and studying. If somebody can prove that, nevertheless, Niebuhr had carefully studied Boethius' theology and philosophy, then well and good. But that would be a claim that would require some real evidence. Also Boethius was basically a Platonic philosopher, whereas the sentiments in the Serenity Prayer are those of ancient Stoic philosophy. That is why you can see a few parallels in the Roman author Cicero, because Cicero (although ultimately a skeptic) was strongly influenced by Stoic ideas in numerous places. But you can go to the "Discourses" of the Stoic philosopher Epictetus (ca. 55–ca. 135) and find almost word-for-word verbatim parallels to every single line of the Serenity Prayer. That prayer matches up with passages in that work, far more than in any other document I know of from the ancient world. Niebuhr could well have been prompted to read Epictetus at some point, because his colleague at Union Theological Seminary, Paul Tillich, had such a great admiration for the Stoics. Tillich apoke of Stoicism as the only serious intellectual alterna- tive to Christianity, and Niebuhr (on his side) liked to argue theology with Tillich, and could have read some Epictetus, if only to see what in the world Tillich was talking about. That is one of the reasons why I especially hate to see people probably being seriously misled by being sent to Boethius over and over again. I could be wrong here. But if Boethius was genuinely a possible source, let someone come up with the passages from his writings where parallels to the Serenity Prayer can be found. Otherwise, please, let us drop Boethius's name out of discussions of the Serenity Prayer. Glenn Chesnut IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4753. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: When did intergroups and central offices first appear? From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/10/2007 3:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Although, in its very early years, the New York Office (today the General Service Office of the US/Canada) was sometimes called "The Central Office" credit for establishing the first urban Central Office as an organization of participating groups should go to Cleveland, Ohio, and Clarence S. So your native state of Ohio is not only where AA started it is where AA's first group (Akron #1) and first Central Office started as well. Around March 1941 Clarence S founder of AA in Cleveland, joined with several members to start the Cleveland Central Office. Bill W also credits the Cleveland Central Office with introducing the principle of rotation to AA. Among its other distinctions, Volume 1, No 1, of the Cleveland Central Bulletin was published by the Cleveland Central Office in October 1942. It was AA's first newsletter to gain national prominence and it preceded the AA Grapevine by almost two years. You can obtain PDF file copies of the Cleveland Central Bulletin by contacting the Cleveland Central Office on-line (it's a great AA history research source). Mitchell K goes into both subjects (central office and newsletter) in detail in his biography of Clarence S titled "How It Worked." You can obtain a PDF copy of the book via internet download. Do a Google, or other, search using a search strings of "How It Worked" +"Clarence" to find a download link. Be sure to get the illustrated version. The on-line digital archives of the AA Grapevine has an abundance of historical material and articles on Central Offices in many cities. It's a great research source. Cheers Arthur IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4754. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: When did intergroups and central offices first appear? From: ricktompkins . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/10/2007 2:58:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Chicago opened its Central Service Office in May 1941. Too many calls to the telephones of the key members of the Chicago Group met the need of inquiries that followed the Saturday Evening Post article. One woman, Grace Cultice, coordinated Twelfth Step calls and handled the mail and public information effort as secretary until her untimely death in 1948 from influenza. Grace was the companion, professional assistant, and social secretary to Sylvia K.(whose personal story is 'Keys To the Kingdom' in the Big Book). Grace was not an alcoholic but loved our emerging Fellowship and contributed much to its early growth here in Illinois from its first 1939 meetings forward. The current Chicago Area Service Office uses the same telephone number (FI-nancial 6-1475). Intergroups and Central Offices seemed to always follow rapid membership growth, and the Central Service Office in Chicago is the first organized effort to my knowledge. There's a rich heritage of its impact to "AA as a whole." Of course, the office for Works Publishing, Inc. was listed in 1938 at Newark, NJ (and its 1940 move to NYC) and used the letterhead of "The Alcoholic Foundation." What Bill called our "AA Headquarters" can be considered as the ORIGINAL central office. NYC's Intergroup may have opened in 1944, but when additional details come to this thread for our egroup we'll appreciate more of this history. I've never found Intergroup history information assembled in one place. We can do it here! Rick T., Illinois IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4755. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: When did intergroups and central offices first appear? From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/10/2007 7:19:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII All you have to do is get the following book: "But, For The Grace of God...How Intergroups & Central Offices Carried the Message of Alcoholics Anonymous in the 1940s" by Wally P. ISBN 1-877686-08-5 Happy holidays to everyone! Just Love, Barefoot Bill - - - - From: Corey Franks (erb2b at yahoo.com) HI... About Central offices and Intergroups, Wally P. wrote his first book on those. I got one of the first copies way back then. Its called "But for the Grace of God: How Intergroups and Central offices carried the Message of AA in the 1940s." Published by the Bishop of Books or get one from Wally P. at Back to Basics. THX! Corey F. - - - - From: "Maria Hoffman" (jhoffma6 at tampabay.rr.com) There is a book by Wally Patton, "But, for the Grace of God" (1955) "The story of the phenomenal growth of A.A. in the 1940's and 'Why it worked.' The book describes the formation and evolution of A.A. groups and Central Offices in 29 cities in the United States and Canada. Included are stories about the turf wars in Denver between the 'Big Book Thumpers' and the 'Touchie Feelies'; the infamous 'Springfield Seven' and the 'Seattle Slots' that financed the cities' A.A. activities." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4756. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Barry Leach in The History of Gay People in AA From: Audrey Borden . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/9/2007 5:05:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Message #4728 (Nov 27, 2007) from LD Pierce "diazeztone" (eztone at hotmail.com) I am making a new page on my aabibliography.com website regarding Barry Leach .... the page is http://www.aabibliography.com/barry_leach_living_sober.html I was ... wondering if anyone had any idea of how to contact Audrey Borden mentioned in one of the posts. She is the author of the book the History of Gay People in Alcoholics Anonymous. Haworth Press 2007 thanks in advance LD Pierce editor aabibliography.com - - - - Hi everyone, Audrey Borden here with a response to LD Pierce's post. Everything I learned about Barry Leach is recorded in the book "The History of Gay People in Alcoholics Anonymous: From the Beginning." A transcript of his wonderful talk at the 1985 Twin Cities Roundup, "The Gay Origins of AA's Third Tradition," appears in Chapter 2. Other topics include a comparison of treatments for alcoholism and homosexuality, the debate in AA over meetings for gay alcoholics, the development of gay meetings, interviews with pioneering lesbian and gay addiction pro- fessionals, the history of AA's pamphlet AA and the Gay/Lesbian Alcoholic, the story of Alcoholics Together (a parallel AA organization for gay alcoholics in southern California from 1968-1982), and many stories of recovery and wisdom from gay (and straight) AA's with long-term sobriety. Best, Audrey (audrey.borden at sbcglobal.net) http://www.haworthpress.com/store/product.asp?sid=NWNQ9GVSJGNV8K7EFKR4T5QBV5 AS5N\ R5&sku=5699&detail=Reviews [9] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4757. . . . . . . . . . . . The present circulation of the Grapevine From: bty934414 . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/17/2007 6:53:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Could you please tell me what the circulation of the Grapevine is at present? Yours with love in the fellowship Norrie F. Scotland U.K. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4758. . . . . . . . . . . . Serenity Prayer not in the Robbins book From: tomper87 . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/14/2007 2:08:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I just received a copy of "The Way of Light -- A Manual of Praise, Prayer and Meditation" compiled by Howard Chandler Robbins. Copyright 1933. Sure enough in the Index of Authors and Sources was: Niebuhr, Reinhold pg. 86 With anticipation I turned to this page. Much to my disappointment there was nothing even resembling the Serenity Prayer as we know it. There was a very nice meditation "On the Mystery of Grace" which did mention "the serenity of the hills" and "the courage of all who bear affliction with quiet strength" but that is about it. This was the only reference to Mr. Niebuhr. I did skim the rest of the book but found nothing resembling the Serenity Prayer. -Tom P. - - - - Message 4751 from "Arthur S" (ArtSheehan at msn.com) A January 1950 Grapevine article titled "The Serenity Prayer ...it's [sic] origin is traced..." contains commentary from Niebuhr on the original wording of the prayer and notes that it was written in 1932 while Niebuhr was at the Union Theological Seminary in NY City. More significantly, the article notes that Niebuhr later gave permission to Howard Chandler Robbins to include a copy of the prayer in a book that Robbins was compiling. Robbins was a close friend of Niebuhr and former Dean of the Cathedral of St John the Divine in NYC. The book of prayer he compiled is titled "Way of Light: a Manual of Praise, Prayer and Meditation." A reference on the internet gives its Library of Congress call number as BV4801 .R6 1933. This establishes the book's publication date as 1933. If the prayer is in the book (and I believe it is) it would confirm that Niebuhr had the prayer as early as 1932 as is claimed (or 1933 at the latest). IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4759. . . . . . . . . . . . The Joe [McQ] and Theodoshia story From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/8/2007 7:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This story was published in "One Day at a Time" Volume 2, Number 2, June 2005, and passed on to me by "John Blair" (jblair at wmis.net) The Joe [McQ] and Theodoshia story Battling alcohol on the frontiers by David Palmer http://www.serenitypark.org/articlesJoeMcQ/OneDayatatimejune05.htm [PHOTO CAPTION: Over the years Joe McQuany, a recovering alcoholic, and Theodoshia Cooper, a teetotaler, have shared a common interest in helping people recover from alcoholism.] Theodoshia Cooper is the real deal. When she walks into a room in her three inch heels, heads turn, and people who don’t know her whisper to each other, “who’s that?” Theodoshia is a “somebody,” and when she arrived at Serenity Park on a chilly, brilliantly lit morning in early March, she caused the usual stir. She was there to say a few words about Joe McQuany’s Serenity Home for Women project — a new treatment facility in the making. As Theodoshia, 80, looked down from the outdoor podium at Joe, 76, who was seated in the front row, it was a tender moment and full of meaning for those who knew the background. Forty-four years ago, Cooper was the psychiatric social worker who helped McQuany get sober at Little Rock’s state hospital. And together they helped change the course of treatment for alco- holics in the state, especially for blacks. On one level they made an odd couple. Cooper, a minister’s wife, had never taken a drink in her life and McQuany had been completely enslaved by alcohol. Further more they were miles apart in temperament — Joe quiet and thoughtful, Theodosia, smart and sassy. What they had in common was a strong faith in God and an in tense desire to serve. And they were, and remain, magnetic personalities. Theodoshia goes to Yale after attending a symposium on alcoholism at Yale University the summer of 1961 Cooper reported for duty at the state hospital in Little Rock where McQuany, a recovering alcoholic, was one of her cases. What struck Theodosia about Joe was that “He was educated, and he wasn’t angry or defensive like the other black men in the hospital.” It came as no surprise to her, she said, that McQuany would become an internationally known author and teacher of the 12-step program of Alcoholics Anonymous. “He was a little too humble at first,” she said, “but he really knew how to work with people.” Cooper, worked side by side with McQuany in his efforts to over come segregation at the state hospital and in AA meeting rooms, and helped him launch Serenity Park treatment center where she also served as a member of the board of directors. Today, Little Rock alone has hundreds of AA meetings and is widely known for its so-called “Little Rock approach plan” of recovery. The Country Girl Cooper’s country girl origins and rise to positions of influence and respect in the community is the stuff about which Broadway plays are written — think“ Hello Dolly” and “Auntie Mame.” She’s got charisma. And that’s not all. She’s got a brain. And a heart. And there’s a five-page resumé with all the degrees and a long record of service and caring for others to prove it. Born in Jennie, Arkansas, a tiny southeast Arkansas delta community in1925, Cooper was orphaned at age 4 and went to live with an aunt and grandmother in neighboring Eudora where she was raised as an only child, worked in her aunt’s beauty shop, faithfully attended church and went to the local schools where she excelled. In her high school years, she was class valedictorian, class president, student council member, president of 4-H and also basketball queen. During these years she discovered her aptitude for leadership and motivation as well as compassion for the less fortunate of her classmates. “I always sat with the kids who seemed to be hurting,” she says. As for the boys, she says matter of factly, “I was a flirt. I could get anybody I wanted.” Case closed. Show biz beckons During these days she experimented briefly with local show biz, playing and singing with a group of girls whose specialty was imitating the pop singers of the time — the Mills Brothers, the Inkspots and even the Andrews Sisters — a bit of a stretch considering they were white. After her high school graduation she went to the University of Arkansas at Pine Bluff for her freshman year and then transferred to Arkansas Baptist College in Little Rock where she graduated with a BSE degree. During this time she also met and married Jobe Vaughn Cooper, a Baptist minister. She began her career as a science teacher at Eudora High School and in succeeding years her bent toward helping the disadvantaged led her to special education jobs in Jacksonville and Little Rock. When she wasn’t teaching, she took on social work research assignments in the field in St. Louis for the Catholic Board of the Children’s Guardian and the Methodist Settlement House. They took her to some dark places where prostitution, child abuse and drug abuse flourished, and this is where Cooper’s concern for the downtrodden and disadvantaged had begun to focus on alco- holism. During her working years she took courses at a variety of colleges and univer- sities — University of Arkansas special education for the deaf, Eastern Michigan College special education for handicapped children, University of Oklahoma for special studies on poverty and program planning for the disadvantaged. And then came the summer school for alcohol studies at Yale. It was attended by the leading scientists and educators in the field along with lecturer Bill Wilson, co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous with Dr. Bob Smith, and author of AA’s Big Book and 12-stepprogram. A concern for alcoholics Cooper, who had come to believe that alcoholism was a disability and a social ill of major significance, ate up the course work and became a pro-found believer in the transforming powers of the 12-step program. She returned to Little Rock with a heightened concern for the suffering alcoholics in her home state and there solve to do something about it. When she arrived at the state hospital she found that many of its operations were segregated. For one thing, she was dismayed to find that there was a separate ward for white alcoholics but that black alcoholics and mental patients were thrown together. She put pressure on legislators and other officials to reorganize the state hospital so that all patients, including blacks, would get better treatment. She and Joe also set about promoting the inte- gration of AA meetings and helping blacks start AA meetings of their own. In this she got some help from three white men — Charles Clark, who sponsored Joe for 32 years before he died in 1993, Bill White and Neil Verdock — who began a subtle collaboration aimed at turning the meeting for blacks at the state hospital into the state’s first desegregated meeting. It wasn’t that difficult. The three men — simply, and without fanfare — began attending the meeting for blacks. Bingo. Desegregation Not everything went that smoothly. A group of blacks in Dumas wanted to start a meeting with the help of Clark in the local Masonic Hall, and in their efforts to assist, Cooper and McQuany, traveling in separate cars, were threatened with arrest by state troopers. Polite but determined, the two pilgrims eventually prevailed. It took courage. “I can talk, and I’m not afraid of anybody,” Cooper says today, and in her full regalia, including those three inch heels, she still has the advantage, even at a very active 80 years, of being very attractive. The first black meeting The two founded the first black meeting at Wesley Chapel across from Philander Smith college and in the mid-’60s Joe started attending some of Little Rock’s white meetings. After all these years, Cooper, who learned the 12-Steps at Joe’s quiet insistence, remains a devoted supporter of AA which she says, “is as close to church work as you can get.” Does she go to meetings? Nope, she says, “They won’t let me talk.” Cooper, who retired in 1987 as administrator, Division of Rehabil- itation Services/Department of Human services, may have slowed a step or two, but her zeal for service remains undiminished. She serves on many boards and helps with many causes. Her latest is to help raise money to build the planned woman’s treatment facility at Serenity Park. She plans to get in touch with Oprah about it. Oprah will have her hands full. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4760. . . . . . . . . . . . First Women''s AA Group in India From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/8/2007 9:38:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Message from "Tom H." (seudonym at bellsouth.net) Coming out of the closet: City’s first Alcoholics Anonymous woman group formed by Neelam Sharma Expressindia.com, Wednesday, 28 November 2007 Chandigarh, November 27 “I Started drinking after I got married. I began with wine 12 years ago to accompany my husband. Soon, I graduated to taking hard liquor, especially when there was no wine in the house. After a couple of years, I remember myself liberally taking liquor from my husband’s bottles when he was away. He was aware of my drinking habit. If I had low BP, I would take honey with rum to get a sound sleep. Slowly my capacity increased and I started hiding my husband’s liquor bottles so that I can hoard and drink later. I have a son and a daughter. Very recently I started passing out occasion- ally and my husband would rush home to attend to me. This was affecting his flourishing business. We then started arguing a lot and even thought of getting separated several times. My children, both teenagers now, were agonised and I was filled with guilt. Until a friend recommended AA three months ago,” narrates Payal, a housewife in her mid-40s, married into a well off family in the tricity, who has now decided to fight the battle against alcoholism. She and three other women are the first members of the woman’s chapter of Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) in Chandigarh . The first-of- its-kind group was formed just a week ago and the group will now meet on Wednesday to share their experience. An AA member from Ireland is here to help the city’s women conduct the group meetings. “Though I have been drinking for more than a decade now, I only started to treat it as a disease very recently. It’s been three months since I have even touched liquor. I realise how many precious years of my life I wasted on alcohol,” says Payal, adding reluctantly: “I would have been a better mother without liquor.” To join Payal in her group is Aradhna, a senior level government official, who tried beer as a young student to rebel against her “male-dominated family”, started regularly drinking with her husband and at official parties and is now hooked on it for the last 30 years. “My family objected to my drinking and stopped talking to me for sometime. My children kept blackmailing me emotionally saying that they would leave me if I did not stop drinking. Nothing helped. Medical reports showed that I had an enlarged liver. And my drinking increased manifolds after my husband died,” says Aradhna, in her 50s, promising herself that she would be regular with the women’s AA meetings now. Meanwhile, Jillie from Ireland, who successfully said no to liquor after being heavily dependent on it for 18 long years, says the special woman’s forum would help women in the city share their problems with ease. “There are social taboos which compel women to stay indoors and not share their problems. Alcoholism is no different in men and women. But I find that in India only men come to take part in such meetings. The group is geared to address that social problem.” Ask Payal if there would be many women like her needing help, she says: “There are many who drink regularly but very few who realise that it’s a problem.” Helpline for AA women *98148-46768, 9876828771 email:aawomen@gmail.com *The AA for Woman, Chandigarh Chapter, will meet twice a week on Wednesdays and Saturdays at Carmel Convent School , Sector 9, at 6 pm. *AA Chandigarh chapter has around 300 members, of which less than 10 are women. (All names have been changed to protect identity) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4761. . . . . . . . . . . . A Teen-Ager''s Decision -- 3rd edition story From: diazeztone . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/13/2007 12:55:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello group, Anybody have info on Lisa that wrote the "Teen-Agers Decision" in the third edition? Big Book (3rd ed.) pp. 353-355 A younger AA friend in Tulsa is asking.... thanks LD aabibliography.com IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4762. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Chicago Central Office and Grace C. From: arcchi88 . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/12/2007 10:05:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII According to her obituary in the Chicago Tribune dated Jan 10, 1948, Grace Cultice died of a heart attack, not influenza. In addition, the following article appeared in the Grapevine in February, 1948 as follows: Chicago Secretary Dies Suddenly Volume 4 Issue 9 February 1948 She knew all about us and loved us anyway. Grace Cultice, 57, was a blessed paradox -- a non-alcoholic who spoke the language of the alkies, an "outside" believer in Alcoholics Anonymous who backed her faith with good works. When two alcoholics got together eight years ago to form the first A.A. group in Chicago, Grace was on hand to help. She's been helping ever since. She gave those eight years willingly, eagerly, unselfishly. Indeed, she literally gave her life. Grace died in her Chicago apartment January 8 of a heart attack. She had endured a long illness, but was thought to be recovering. Against medical advice she had persisted in many of her duties as secretary and office manager of the Greater Chicago group. She'd tried to slow down, but it was next to impossible to keep her under wraps. For two days her flower-banked casket lay in a Chicago mortuary. Thousands came to mourn. Then the body was taken to her native Xenia, Ohio, for burial by relatives. Miss Cultice was a familiar figure in Chicago advertising circles when she became interested in A.A. through friendship with the local group founders. Often she acted as hostess at early meetings of three, four or a half dozen members. She grew up with the Chicago group. Along the route to its present 5,000-plus membership, the need became pressing for a full-time secretary. Grace took the job, ignoring the financial sacri- fice. Because she knew how alkies talk and think and act, she shepherded hundreds into the ways of recovery. She was a genial "greeter" for A.A.s visiting Chicago. On her last Christmas, cards came from A.A.s the world over. Alcoholics have an inherent distaste for mawkishness. But none feels shame for his tears for Grace, nor for his devastating sense of personal loss. E.B. Chicago Thanks! Tom C. Evanston, IL. - - - - Message 4754 from (ricktompkins at comcast.net) Chicago opened its Central Service Office in May 1941. Too many calls to the telephones of the key members of the Chicago Group met the need of inquiries that followed the Saturday Evening Post article. One woman, Grace Cultice, coordinated Twelfth Step calls and handled the mail and public information effort as secretary until her untimely death in 1948 from influenza. Grace was the companion, professional assistant, and social secretary to Sylvia K.(whose personal story is 'Keys To the Kingdom' in the Big Book). Grace was not an alcoholic but loved our emerging Fellowship and contributed much to its early growth here in Illinois from its first 1939 meetings forward. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4763. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: The present circulation of the Grapevine From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/18/2007 9:00:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Norrie The kind of statistics you are seeking are reported each year to the General Service Conference of the US/Canada and are included in the final report of the Conference. The report can be obtained from the GSO in New York. Also, questions such as the one you asked, can be sent directly to the Grapevine by email (please check the link below). The folks in the office are very helpful and responsive to member requests. http://www.aagrapevine.org/about/contact.php The Grapevine "paid circulation - Average # of copies" reported to the 57th Conference last April are: English 2006 Budget 105,000 2006 Actual 103,878 2007 Budget 103,000 Spanish (La Vina) 2006 Budget 9,700 2007 Actual 10,233 2007 Budget 10,100 Cheers Arthur - - - - Original Message Subject: The present circulation of the Grapevine Could you please tell me what the circulation of the Grapevine is at present? Yours with love in the fellowship Norrie F. Scotland U.K. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4764. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: A Teen-Ager''s Decision -- 3rd edition story From: rhrd_luckett . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/18/2007 6:02:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII LD Go to a-1associates.com/aa. Lisa's story can be found on page 12 from a document called Biographies of the Authors of the Stories in the Big Book. Richard - - - - Also sent in by Robt Woodson: (wdywdsn at sbcglobal.net) - - - - From the moderator: these biographies of the people who wrote the stories in the Big Book were assembled by Nancy Olson (the founder of the AAHistoryLovers) and other members of this group, and are posted on two of the major AA history sites: http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/Authors.htm http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/Authors.htm#A%20Teen-Ager's%20Decision http://silkworth.net/aabiography/storyauthors.html http://silkworth.net/aabiography/lisa.html - - - - Original message #4761 from "diazeztone" (eztone at hotmail.com) Anybody have info on Lisa that wrote the "Teen-Agers Decision" in the third edition? Big Book (3rd ed.) pp. 353-355 A younger AA friend in Tulsa is asking.... thanks LD aabibliography.com IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4766. . . . . . . . . . . . Don Black: baseball players and anonymity issues From: ckbudnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/18/2007 11:02:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I made an interesting discovery when searching the Los Angeles Times online archives. The headline of this July 11, 1947 story is "Cleveland's Don Black Pitches No-Hitter." The article starts: "Don Black, who joined Alcoholics Anonymous after he was fired from the Cleveland Indians as a playboy last season and later rehired, pitched a 3-to-0, no-hit, no-run game tonight against the Philadelphia Athletics at the climax to a fine baseball comeback..." The article continues: "...The right-hander, who was sent down to Milwaukee when he failed to make the grade with the Indians last season, asked President William Veeck for 'one more chance to make good' and got it after assuring the Cleveland boss he had joined Alcoholics Anonymous and was a member in good standing..." And towards the end: "...When Black reported to the Indians this season and announced that hereafter he was following the "soda pop trail," Cleveland Manager Lou Boudreau was quick to see the change and named him as his No. 2 pitcher behind Feller." I found this very interesting because of Rollie Hemsley who was a catcher for the Indians who got sober through AA around 1939. In doing some online research, it appears that their careers overlapped, but Hemsley was gone from Cleveland when Black was there. Hemsely did maintain a relationship with the Indians after he was done playing for them, as evidenced by a baseball that he had the 1948 World Champion Indians sign for Dr. Bob. This ball is in the Dr. Bob collection at the John Hay Library at Brown University. So my questions following this line of thinking... 1) Did Hemsley assist Black in getting or staying sober? 2) Does anyone know much about Black? According to online sources, Black finished his career in 1948 after the World Series and he was dead by 1959 at the age of 42 in Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio. 3) Any thoughts about the influence of AA on the Cleveland Indians due to proximity to the beginnings of AA and the success of staying sober that two of their players had? Chris B. Raleigh, North Carolina - - - - From the moderator: The date here (1947) is important, because the whole issue of the traditions and how they were to be interpreted was still being debated in AA during that period. Arthur Sheehan's message giving some of the major dates and events is useful here, for putting the Don Black episode in context. The long form of the twelve traditions had appeared in the Grapevine the year before, in 1946, but that did not mean that they were either understood or accepted yet by all AA members. Even a decade later, Lillian Roth's auto- biography "I'll Cry Tomorrow" (1954) and Father Ralph Pfau's autobiography "Prodigal Shepherd" (1958) announced their AA membership in print. (This was the issue which caused the break between Father Ralph and Bill Wilson, who had once been good friends. Peace was not restored between the two men until Father Ralph went to Bill Wilson's hotel room at the AA International in Toronto, Canada, in 1965. No one knows what the two said in private, but a Canadian Roman Catholic priest who was standing in the hall, told me that it was clear that friendship and peace had been restored. This was only two years before Father Ralph's death.) But for a much fuller account of the broader historical context, see the relevant parts of Arthur Sheehan's message below. Glenn Chesnut, South Bend, Indiana - - - - Message 3460 from "ArtSheehan" (ArtSheehan at msn.com) http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/3460 1939 Principles defined in the Foreword to the First Edition Big Book provided the seeds for many of the Traditions that Bill W later published in the April 1946 Grapevine. These same principles were also incorporated into the “AA Preamble” which was first published in the June 1947 Grapevine. Relevant extracts from the Foreword to the First Edition are: “It is important that we remain anonymous because we are too few, at present to handle the overwhelming number of personal appeals which may result from this publication. Being mostly business or professional folk, we could not well carry on our occupations in such an event. We would like it understood that our alcoholic work is an avocation.” “When writing or speaking publicly about alcoholism, we urge each of our Fellowship to omit his personal name, designating himself instead as "a member of Alcoholics Anonymous." “Very earnestly we ask the press also, to observe this request, for otherwise we shall be greatly handicapped.” “We are not an organization in the conventional sense of the word. There are no fees or dues whatsoever. The only requirement for membership is an honest desire to stop drinking. We are not allied with any particular faith, sect or denomination, nor do we oppose anyone. We simply wish to be helpful to those who are afflicted. We shall be interested to hear from those who are getting results from this book, particularly from those who have commenced work with other alcoholics. We should like to be helpful to such cases. Inquiry by scientific, medical, and religious societies will be welcomed.“ 1945 August, the Grapevine carried Bill W’s first Traditions article (titled “Modesty One Plank for Good Public Relations”) setting the groundwork for his 5-year campaign for the Traditions. 1946 Grapevine April, the Grapevine carried Bill W’s article “Twelve Suggested Points for AA Tradition.” They would later be called the long form of the Twelve Traditions. 1947 Grapevine December, the Grapevine carried a notice that an important new 48-page pamphlet titled AA Traditions was sent to each group and that enough copies were available for each member to have one free of charge. 1949 As plans for the first International Convention were under way, Earl T suggested to Bill W that the “Twelve Suggested Points for AA Tradition” would benefit from revision and shortening. (AACOA 213 says it occurred in 1947) Bill, with Earl’s help, set out to develop the short form of the Twelve Traditions. (AACOA 213, PIO 334) November, the short form of the Twelve Traditions was first printed in the AA Grapevine. The entire issue was dedicated to the Traditions in preparation for the forthcoming Cleveland Convention. Two wording changes were subsequently made to the initial version of the short form of the Traditions: “primary spiritual aim” was changed to “primary purpose” in Tradition 6, and “principles above personalities” was changed to “principles before personalities” in Tradition 12. (LOH 96) The date that these changes were adopted is difficult to determine precisely and appears to have occurred with the publication of the book “Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions” in 1953. 1950 AA’s 15th anniversary and 1st International Convention took place at Cleveland, OH from July 28-30, 1950 (AACOA 43, LOH 121, PIO 338). Bill W chronicled the proceedings in a September 1950 Grapevine article titled “We Came of Age” which is preserved in the book “The Language of the Heart.” (LOH 117-124) The Traditions meeting of the Convention was held in the Cleveland Music Hall. Bill W was asked to sum up the 12 Traditions for the attendees. Bill did not recite either the short or long form of the Traditions as we know them today or as they were first published. Instead he paraphrased and summarized a variation of the Traditions that is preserved in the book “The Language of the Heart” (LOH 121). Following Bill’s summation, he asked if anyone had any objections to the 12 Traditions of Alcoholics Anonymous. Hearing none he offered the Traditions for adoption. The attendees unanimously approved their adoption by standing vote. 1953 June, the book Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions was published. Bill W described the work as “This small volume is strictly a textbook which explains AA’s 24 basic principles and their application, in detail and with great care.” Betty L and Tom P helped Bill in its writing. Jack Alexander also helped with editing. It was published in two editions: one for $2.25 ($15.50 today) for distribution through AA groups, and a $2.75 ($19 today) edition distributed through Harper and Brothers for sale in commercial bookstores. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4767. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill and Lois'' Christmas Message, 1944 From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/18/2007 7:38:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From SHAKEY MIKE GWIRTZ (Shakey1aa at aol.com) and JESSE GILLIAM (mr_clean1991 at yahoo.com) TO ALL MEMBERS Greetings On Our 10th Christmas 1944 Yes, it's in the air! The spirit of Christmas once more warms this poor distraught world. Over the whole globe millions are looking forward to that one day when strife can be forgotten, when it will be remembered that all human beings, even the least are loved by God, when men will hope for the coming of the Prince of Peace as they never hoped before. But there is another world which is not poor. Neither is it distraught. It is the world of Alcoholics Anonymous, where thousands dwell happily and secure. Secure because each of us, in his own way, knows a greater power who is love, who is just, and who can be trusted. Nor can men and women of AA ever forget that only through suffering did they find enough humility to enter the portals of that New World. How privileged we are to understand so well the divine paradox that strength rises from weakness, that humiliation goes before resurrection; that pain is not only the price but the very touchstone of spiritual rebirth. Knowing it's full worth and purpose, we can no longer fear adversity, we have found pros- perity where there was poverty, peace and joy have sprung out of the very midst of chaos. Great indeed, our blessings! And so -- Merry Christmas to you all -- from the Trustees, from Bobbie and from Lois and me. Bill Wilson IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4768. . . . . . . . . . . . Source of freedom quote From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/21/2007 3:27:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII What is the source of the quote Wynn Corum Laws uses in her story "Freedom from Bondage"? "As another great man says, "The only real freedom a human being can ever know is doing what you ought to do because you want to do it." I take this as a paraphrase from an article Wilson wrote for the May 1960 Grapevine. The paragraph it was taken from goes: Looking back we see that our freedom to choose badly was not, after all, a very real freedom. When we chose because we "must," this was not a free choice either. But it got us started in the right direction. When we chose because we "ought to" we were really doing better. This time we were earning some freedom, making ourselves ready for more. But when, now and then, we could gladly make right choices without rebellion, hold-out or conflict, then we had our first view of what perfect freedom under God's will could be like. Few indeed can long remain on that lofty plateau; for most of us its permanent attainment has to be a lifetime and, more probably, an eternal job. But we know that this highest plateau is really there--a goal someday to be reached. My question to the list would be, where does Laws' quote come from? Tommy H in Baton Rouge IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4769. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Source of freedom quote From: James R . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/21/2007 11:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Two possible sources. The first is more to the point: "Freedom, morality and the human dignity of the individual consists precisely in this; that he does good not because he is forced to do so, but because he freely conceives it, wants it, and loves it" (Mikhail Bakunin [1814-1876], Russian political theorist). The second is rather remote: "And so I think that the last lesson of life, the choral song which rises from all elements and all angels, is, a voluntary obedience, a necessitated freedom. Man is made of the same atoms as the world is, he shares the same impressions, predispositions, and destiny. When his mind is illuminated, when his heart is kind, he throws himself joyfully into the sublime order, and does, with knowledge, what the stones do by structure." (Ralph Waldo Emerson) Jim C. San Antonio, TX Tom Hickcox wrote: What is the source of the quote Wynn Corum Laws uses in her story "Freedom from Bondage"? "As another great man says, "The only real freedom a human being can ever know is doing what you ought to do because you want to do it." I take this as a paraphrase from an article Wilson wrote for the May 1960 Grapevine. The paragraph it was taken from goes: Looking back we see that our freedom to choose badly was not, after all, a very real freedom. When we chose because we "must," this was not a free choice either. But it got us started in the right direction. When we chose because we "ought to" we were really doing better. This time we were earning some freedom, making ourselves ready for more. But when, now and then, we could gladly make right choices without rebellion, hold-out or conflict, then we had our first view of what perfect freedom under God's will could be like. Few indeed can long remain on that lofty plateau; for most of us its permanent attainment has to be a lifetime and, more probably, an eternal job. But we know that this highest plateau is really there--a goal someday to be reached. My question to the list would be, where does Laws' quote come from? Tommy H in Baton Rouge IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4770. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Don Black: baseball players and anonymity issues From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/21/2007 5:42:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There is a member of this list (in Arizona I think) who is an expert on Rollie H and baseball in AA, who might have more on this. I can tell you Don Black was with Phil AL (the A's) 1943-45 and Cleveland (Indians) 1946-48. You might want to look at pitcher Nate Andrews (St L NL 1937-38, Cleveland AL 1940-41, Boston NL 1943-45, Cincinnati and NY NL 1946). Rollie Hemsley (whose career began 1928 with Pittsburgh) was with Cleveland AL 1938-41, Cincinnati NL 1942, NY AL 1943-44, Phil NL 1946-47. Remember that SS Lou Boudreau (Cleveland 1938-50) was also playing Manager of the Indians 1942-50, and a strong link over time between the days of Hemsley (and Nate Andrews) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4771. . . . . . . . . . . . Significant July dates: Bill W. before the U.S. Senate From: ckbudnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/28/2007 6:20:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Having just finished reading "With a Lot of Help from Our Friends: The Politics of Alco- holism" by Nancy Olson, I would suggest adding the date that Bill Wilson testified, as a member of AA, at a Senate hearing for the first Subcommittee hearings on the "Impact of Alcoholism." The date of his testimony was July 24, 1969. Some quotes by Bill that can be found in Ms. Olson's book include: "Mr. Chairman, Senators, we of A.A., it is already apparent, are going to have reason for great gratitude on account of your invitation to put in an appearance here. For me this is an extremely moving and significant occasion. It may well mark the advent of the new era in this old business of alcoholism." (p. 40) "Because of my appearence here as an A.A. member, I have to limit myself pretty much to statements about A.A. But you must remember that as time passes in these hearing a great many A.A.'s will be testifying as citizens, and they will be far more free to express opinions on the general field and their activitites in it than I am." (p. 51) A detailed account of Bill's testimony can be found in AAHL message #140, which was posted by Ms. Olson. http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/140 Marty Mann also testified, not as a member of A.A., but as the founder of the National Council on Alcoholism. Other witnesses included Judge Harrison, a municipal judge from Des Moines, Reverend David Works of the North Conway Institute; the Reverend Lewis Sheen; Mercedes McCambridge, an Academy Award winning actress; and Kay G., an Al-Anon member. Except for Kay G., all the other witnesses identified themselves as recovered alcoholics. http://hindsfoot.org/kNO1.html http://hindsfoot.org/kNO2.html http://hindsfoot.org/kNO3.html IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4772. . . . . . . . . . . . Amelia Reynolds, Oxford Group author From: diazeztone . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/25/2007 8:09:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Information wanted about Amelia S. Reynolds, an Oxford Group author. She wrote: Amelia S. Reynolds, "New Lives for Old" (New York: Fleming H. Revell, 1929). 96 pages Anybody have more info about who she was and anything about her life? Does anyone have a summary of this book or can send me jpg photos etc. I am building a web page about this book. LD Pierce, aabibliography.com e-mail address: (eztone at hotmail.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4773. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Source of freedom quote From: johnpublico . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/22/2007 11:18:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The American poet Robert Frost expressed a similar thought. He put it succinctly (and rustically) this way: "You have freedom when you're easy in your harness." John K. --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, James R wrote: > > Two possible sources. The first is more to > the point: > > "Freedom, morality and the human dignity of > the individual consists precisely in this; > that he does good not because he is forced > to do so, but because he freely conceives it, > wants it, and loves it" (Mikhail Bakunin > [1814-1876], Russian political theorist). > > The second is rather remote: > > "And so I think that the last lesson of > life, the choral song which rises from all > elements and all angels, is, a voluntary > obedience, a necessitated freedom. Man is > made of the same atoms as the world is, he > shares the same impressions, predispositions, > and destiny. When his mind is illuminated, > when his heart is kind, he throws himself > joyfully into the sublime order, and does, > with knowledge, what the stones do by > structure." (Ralph Waldo Emerson) > > Jim C. > San Antonio, TX > > > > > Tom Hickcox wrote: > What is the source of the quote Wynn Corum > Laws uses in her story "Freedom from Bondage"? > > "As another great man says, "The only real > freedom a human being can ever know is doing > what you ought to do because you want to do > it." > > I take this as a paraphrase from an article > Wilson wrote for the May 1960 Grapevine. > The paragraph it was taken from goes: > > Looking back we see that our freedom to choose > badly was not, after all, a very real freedom. > When we chose because we "must," this was not > a free choice either. But it got us started > in the right direction. When we chose because > we "ought to" we were really doing better. > This time we were earning some freedom, making > ourselves ready for more. But when, now and > then, we could gladly make right choices > without rebellion, hold-out or conflict, then > we had our first view of what perfect freedom > under God's will could be like. Few indeed > can long remain on that lofty plateau; for > most of us its permanent attainment has to > be a lifetime and, more probably, an eternal > job. But we know that this highest plateau is > really there--a goal someday to be reached. > > My question to the list would be, where does > Laws' quote come from? > > Tommy H in Baton Rouge > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4774. . . . . . . . . . . . Pamphlet in Physician Heal Thyself ??? From: terrylwalton . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/23/2007 11:33:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII What was the title of the AA pamphlet mentioned in the Big Book story "Physician, Heal Thyself" ??? In the personal story of Earle Marsh he mentions a pamphlet given to him by a friend. Does anyone know who the friend was, or the title of the pamphlet described below? I am assuming it was an AA pamphlet. Is it still in circulation? BB story page 346 3rd ed. On the last day I was drinking I went up to see a friend who had had a good deal of trouble with alcohol, and whose wife had left him a number of times. He had come back, however, and he was on this program. In my stupid way I went up to see him with the idea in the back of my mind that I would investigate Alcoholics Anonymous from a medical stand- point. Deep in my heart was the feeling that maybe I could get some help here. This friend gave me a pamphlet, and I took it home and had my wife read it to me. There were two sentences in it that struck me. One said, "Don't feel that you are a martyr because you stopped drinking," and this hit me between the eyes. The second one said, "Don't feel that you stop drinking for anyone other than yourself," and this hit me between the eyes. Thank you, Terry W 1: http://www2.stakes.fi/nat/pdf/04/NAT304.pdf 2: http://alcoholselfhelpnews.wordpress.com/2007/03/15/verification-of-c-g-jungs-analysis-of-rowland-hazard-and-the-history-of-alcoholics-anonymous/ 3: http://historyofalcoholanddrugs.typepad.com/alcohol_and_drugs_history/SHADV19.html 4: http://www.nytimes.com:80/2007/07/06/nyregion/06aa.html?ex=1184385600&en=a4e89f27513b9d9e&ei=5070&emc=eta1 5: http://www.amazon.com/Shame-Guilt-Ernest-Kurtz/dp/0595454925/ref=sr_1_1/002-9685421-9678450?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1188843499&sr=1-1 6: http://www.justloveaudio.com/resources/Assorted/Big_Book_Name_and_Date_References.pdf 7: http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F40911F93A5D167A93C2A8178DD85F418385F9 8: http://www.silkworth.net/pdfhistory/Little-Rock-Plan-Gives-Prospects-Sep-1947.pdf 9: http://www.haworthpress.com/store/product.asp?sid=NWNQ9GVSJGNV8K7EFKR4T5QBV5AS5NR5&sku=5699&detail=Reviews