AA History Lovers Messages 4775 Thru 5452

<title>AA History Lovers Messages 4775 Thru 5452</title>






AA History Lovers

2008



Messages 4775-5452



moderated by



Nancy Olson
September 18, 1929 – March 25, 2005

Glenn F. Chesnut
June 28, 1939 –



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++++Message 4775. . . . . . . . . . . . Significant January Dates in A.A.
History
From: chesbayman56 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/1/2008 1:25:00 PM

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Significant January Dates in A.A. History

Jan 1929 - Bill W. wrote third promise in Bible to quit drinking.
Jan 1940 - Akron group moves to new home at King School.
Jan 1944 - Dr. Harry Tiebout's first paper on the subject of
"Alcoholics Anonymous".
Jan 1944 - onset of Bill's 11 years of depression.
Jan 1946 - Readers Digest does a story on AA.
Jan 1948 - 1st A.A. meeting in Japan
Jan 1951 - AA Grapevine publishes memorial issue for Dr Bob.
Jan 1958 - Bill writes article for Grapevine on "Emotional Sobriety".
Jan 1, 1943 - Columbus Dispatch reports 1st Anniversary of Columbus,
Ohio Central Group.
Jan 2, 1889 - Sister Ignatia born, Ballyhane Ireland.
Jan 3, 1939 - First sale of Works Publishing Co stock is recorded.
Jan 4, 1940 - 1st AA group formed in Detroit, Michigan.
Jan 5, 1939 - Dr Bob tells Ruth Hock in a letter that AA has "to get
away from the Oxford Group atmosphere".
Jan 5, 2001 - Chuck C. from Houston died sober in Texas at 38 years
sober.
Jan 6, 2000 - Stephen Poe, compiler of the Concordance to Alcoholics
Anonymous, died.
Jan 8, 1938 - New York AA splits from the Oxford Group.
Jan 10, 1940 - 1st AA meeting not in a home meets at King School,
Akron, Ohio.
Jan 13, 1988 - Dr Jack Norris Chairman/Trustee of AA for 27 years
dies.
Jan 13, 2003 - Dr Earle M sober for 49 years, author of "Physician
Heal Thyself" died.
Jan 15, 1937 - Fitz M brings AA meetings to Washington DC.
Jan 15, 1945 - First AA meeting held in Springfield, Missouri.
Jan 19, 1943 - 1st discussion for starting AA group in Toronto.
Jan 19, 1944 - Wilson's returned from 1st major A.A. tour started in
Oct 24 1943.
Jan 19, 1999 - Frank M., AA Archivist since 1983, died peacefully in
his sleep.
Jan 21, 1954 - Hank P who helped Bill start NY office dies in
Pennington, New Jersey.
Jan 23, 1985 - Bob B. died sober November 11, 2001.
Jan 24, 1918 - Bill marries Lois Burnham in the Swedenborgen Church
in Brookyn Heights.
Jan 24, 1945 - 1st black group St. Louis
Jan. 24, 1971 - Bill W dies at Miami Beach, FL.
Jan 25, 1915 - Dr. Bob marries Anne Ripley.
Jan 26, 1971 - New York Times publishes Bill's obituary on page 1.
Jan 30, 1961 - Dr Carl Jung answers Bill's letter with "Spiritus
Contra Spiritum".
End of Jan 1939 - 400 copies of manuscript of Big Book circulated for
comment, evaluation and sale.

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++++Message 4776. . . . . . . . . . . . Annette Smith, Social World of
Alcoholics Anonymous
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/2/2008 7:02:00 PM

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New book just out:

Annette R. Smith, Ph.D., "The Social World
of Alcoholics Anonymous: How It Works,"
December 2007, ISBN 978-0-595-47692-3,
xx + 150 pp.

http://hindsfoot.org/kas1.html

With an introduction by Linda Farris Kurtz,
DPA, Professor Emeritus, Eastern Michigan
University School of Social Work, author of
"Self-Help and Support Groups: A Handbook
for Practitioners."

http://hindsfoot.org/kas2.html

In the Preface to her book, Annette Smith
describes how she became involved in this
research:

Although I am not myself a member of A.A., I
have been intimately involved with the program
and its membership for many years. In 1969,
while I was working as a clinical social
worker on the alcoholism treatment unit at a
state mental hospital in California, the local
A.A. Hospital and Institutions Committee asked
to hold a meeting at the hospital. However,
the administration said there were no rooms
available. So, I arranged for the patients to
be bussed to my house every Thursday night,
where the meetings were held in my living room.
This went on for almost a year until the
hospital finally made a room available. During
this initial exposure to A.A., I developed
a close association with the fellowship, and
through the years I have continued to attend
open meetings and participate in many informal
A.A. social activities.

In 1982, I returned to graduate school at the
University of California, San Diego, to pursue
my Ph.D. in sociology. As I developed my socio-
logical interests, it seemed almost a natural
progression in my involvement with A.A. to be
able to look at it from the new perspective of
scholarly research. The primary content of
this book, including the data and references,
was originally part of the dissertation
submitted in 1991 in partial fulfillment of
my Ph.D. in Sociology.

The theoretical and methodological approaches
are those of symbolic interaction and quali-
tative field study. The focus is on interactive
processes, which are not captured by survey
research. Therefore, research efforts require
the kind of intimate familiarity that can only
be achieved through participant observation
and other qualitative methods. The supportive
data has been drawn primarily from participant
observation over a twenty-three-year period
in which I was associated with A.A. and from
in-depth interviews with fifty-one members
conducted in the course of the dissertation
and previous research (Smith, 1986). Examples
and citations presented included statements
heard during several hundred open A.A. meetings
in several geographic areas of the U.S. and
abroad, and both professional and personal
conversations with A.A. members. Additional
material and interpretive insights have been
drawn from the A.A. literature and referenced
secondary sources. Interview subjects were
initially recruited by placing notices on
bulletin boards at four local A.A. social clubs
and in chapter newsletters of the National
Council on Alcoholism and the Employee Assist-
ance Professionals Association. Interviews were
limited to those with at least two years of
continuous sobriety in an effort to provide
some protection against harmful emotional
effects to which those in early sobriety are
vulnerable. As patterns of experiences began
to emerge, additional subjects were sought
through snowball sampling that focused on the
need for stories reflecting these patterns.

The total interview sample consisted of
twenty-eight men and twenty-three women, with
ages ranging from nineteen to seventy. Length
of sobriety ranged from two to over twenty
years. All interviewees could be categorized
as low middle to middle class, with occupa-
tions ranging from skilled labor to technical
and professional. Three women and two men were
unemployed at the time of the interview. Only
one of the women categorized herself as a
homemaker, and none of the subjects were
retired. Ethnically, most were Caucasian,
although one black male, one Native American
male, and one Hispanic female were also in
the sample. These variations did not appear
to affect the general pattern of experiences
reflected for those constructs under study.

A topic guide was used for interviews that
established demographic information on age
and other categories, including date of A.A.
membership and date of current continuous
sobriety. Questions addressed included the
individual's perception of himself or herself
in terms of interpersonal relationships and
preferred ways of associating with others,
how he or she first came to A.A., what happened
there, feelings about what happened and ways
in which the person has participated in A.A.
since. The interviewees were also asked how
and when they accepted themselves as alcoholic,
and what they saw as most important in A.A.
recovery. As the various chapters of this book
were completed, they were read by selected A.A.
members for accuracy of organizational informa-
tion and validity of suggested patterns and
constructs. In the presentation of data, great
care has been taken to protect the anonymity
and confidentiality of all living A.A. members.

Subsequently, a new edition of the Big Book
of Alcoholics Anonymous was issued (AAWS, 2001),
and several noteworthy works have been added
to the qualitative research literature. A
paper on the social construction of group
dependency based on a chapter of the disserta-
tion was published (Smith, 1993). Makela,
Arminen, Bloomfield, et al. (1996) compared
the development of A.A. as a social movement
in eight societies; Wilcox (1998), Jensen
(1999) and Pollner and Stein (2001) provided
studies of aspects of A.A. culture; and
O'Halloran (2003) examined differences between
ethnographic and ethnomethodological (conversa-
tion analysis) methods in studying Alcoholics
Anonymous. Other relevant publications on
the subject include L. Kurtz's (1997) handbook
for practitioners on self-help and support
groups, which references some of the material
included in the dissertation, and Bishop and
Pittman's (1994) second volume of their A.A.
bibliography.

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++++Message 4777. . . . . . . . . . . . Bob P. (GSO Manager 1974-84) died
Jan. 1st
From: Mike Terhune . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/1/2008 8:36:00 PM

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Bob P. -- A Sober Life Well Lived

General Manager of the General Service Office
from 1974 to 1984

At 2:14 MST this morning, January 1, 2008,
Bob Pearson departed this life at the age of
90, sober for the final 46-1/2 years. Born
February 19, 1917, Bob leaves behind a loving
wife of 63 years and a family of children,
grandchildren and great-grandchildren, along
with a countless host of alcoholics ever
indebted to his life of love and service.

- - - -

At the suggestion of Carter E., I wanted to
share my tiny bit of AA history with this group.
The following is a tribute to a dear friend
that I posted to the NRV AA listserver:

For several hours yesterday afternoon, I once
again found myself blessed by sobriety and the
fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous. Along
with a dozen AA's and several other friends,
I was invited by the family of Robert G.
Pearson to attend the celebration of a life
well lived.

Crowded into a small bedroom at his home in
Bellevue, Idaho, we were given the opportunity
to sit with Bob and express our love, sadness
and gratitude in a way rarely seen outside of
our program and, certainly, in a manner never
before experienced by this servant.

I first met Bob P. in May 2004 at a meeting
in a room typical of many AA meetings, a tiny
confine in the basement of a church hall in
Hailey, Idaho. Outwardly, this man appeared
no different from any other drunk I've met in
many other meetings over the past quarter
century, though a bit older than most. He
began his share with "My name's Bob and I'm
a happy alcoholic," as he would each and
every time he spoke in AA. His precise words
of that day are lost with the passing of time
but I'm certain his theme was as it always
was: the joys of a sober life and the fact
that AA does not teach us how to stop drinking,
but how to live life without drinking.

At the end of the meeting, Bob asked if anyone
in the room would be attending the upcoming
Spring Assembly in Pocatello. As newly
appointed GSR for my group, I had been looking
for someone to share the three-hour ride.
I introduced myself to him and was immediately
invited to drive him and his wife, Betsy, to
the conference. Along the way, I learned
much about the amazing life of this wonderful
couple.

Previously of Greenwich, CT, Bob had worked
for the Grapevine, later becoming its editor.
It was during this time that he met Bill W.
Bob often related the tale of their first
meeting, Bob gushing all over Bill and Bill
replying with the simple phrase "Pass it on."
From 1974 to 1984, Bob served as General Manager
of the G.S.O. and was its Senior Adviser from
1985 until his retirement in 1987. As Bob
napped along the way, Betsy regaled me with
stories of the times they had shared with
Bill and Lois.

By the end of the trip we had become fast
friends. I've since often been invited to
house sit for the couple and entrusted with
the care of their pets during their frequent
travels about the country. I have shared many
a Tuesday afternoon lunch with them after
the noon meeting of the Wood River "To Handle
Sobriety Group," Bob's home group. Bob and
Bets, along with their sons (Brad and Ridley)
and daughter (Wendy) have become, in their
words, a surrogate family for me here in Idaho.

Though I never heard Bob tell his entire story
at an AA meeting, I was privileged to again
drive him to Pocatello where he was to be the
featured speaker for a group anniversary.
After his introduction, he asked those in
attendance if we would mind if he did not
share his E, S & H, rather telling us stories
of his time in New York, of (previously, to me)
nameless characters from the Big Book and a
bit of the history of Alcoholics Anonymous.
Of course, no one minded and Bob captured this
group of drunks for more than an hour with
a chronicle of AA brought to life.

Sadly, we have lost a connection to our legacy.
At 2:14 MST this morning, Bob Pearson departed
this life at the age of 90, sober for the
final 46-1/2 years. Born February 19, 1917,
Bob leaves behind a loving wife of 63 years,
a family of children, grandchildren and great-
grandchildren, along with a countless host
of alcoholics ever indebted to his life of
love and service.

Goodbye, Cap'n.. you will be missed

Mike Terhune

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++++Message 4778. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Don Black: baseball players and
anonymity issues
From: aalogsdon@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/2/2008 3:02:00 PM

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I have some information on Don Black and much
more on Hemsley. I have nothing to indicate
they knew each other. I have a pamphlet with
Black's picture and short story published by
the World League Against Alcoholism of
Westerville, Ohio reproduced by permission
from article by Kenneth F. Weaver in THE
ALLIED YOUTH and an oversized baseball card
by Capital Publishing Company with stats.

For information on his sudden collapse on
the field and later death see NOW PITCHING
Bob Feller with Bill Gilbert on pages 142,
155, 157, 161-162.

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++++Message 4779. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Amelia Reynolds, Oxford Group
author
From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/30/2007 3:42:00 PM

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"diazeztone" <eztone@...> wrote:
>
> Information wanted about Amelia S. Reynolds,
> an Oxford Group author. She wrote:
>
> Amelia S. Reynolds, "New Lives for Old" (New
> York: Fleming H. Revell, 1929). 96 pages
>

Could she be the same person as Mrs. Howard
Reynolds of Winnipeg, Manitoba? Mrs. Reynolds
was quoted in a 1936 Time article about the
Stockbridge Oxford Group event: "Our budget
is God-controlled. There is a real thrill
and purpose in teas and dinner parties."

Howard Reynolds later directed many of the
MRA dramatic productions, according to Garth
Lean's book about Buchman.

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++++Message 4780. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Pamphlet in Physician Heal
Thyself ???
From: pmds@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/28/2007 2:09:00 PM

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I heard him tell that story many times ...
he described it as a piece of paper on which
was written something like "Considerations for
the man who is thinking about stopping drinking."

The person who gave it to him, whose name I've
forgotten, was a fraternity brother of Earle's
and lived in Marin County quite near where
Earle lived.

Earle wrote a book with the same title as his
story in the Big Book, and the information
may be in there.

- - - -

Original message 4774 from Terry W
<twalton@3gcinc.com> (twalton at 3gcinc.com)

What was the title of the AA pamphlet
mentioned in the Big Book story "Physician,
Heal Thyself" ???

In the personal story of Earle Marsh he
mentions a pamphlet given to him by a friend.
Does anyone know who the friend was, or the
title of the pamphlet described below? I am
assuming it was an AA pamphlet. Is it still
in circulation?

BB story page 346 3rd ed.

On the last day I was drinking I went up to
see a friend who had had a good deal of trouble
with alcohol, and whose wife had left him a
number of times. He had come back, however,
and he was on this program. In my stupid way
I went up to see him with the idea in the
back of my mind that I would investigate
Alcoholics Anonymous from a medical stand-
point. Deep in my heart was the feeling that
maybe I could get some help here.

This friend gave me a pamphlet, and I took
it home and had my wife read it to me. There
were two sentences in it that struck me.

One said, "Don't feel that you are a martyr
because you stopped drinking," and this hit
me between the eyes.

The second one said, "Don't feel that you
stop drinking for anyone other than yourself,"
and this hit me between the eyes.

Thank you,
Terry W

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++++Message 4781. . . . . . . . . . . . Matt Talbot research
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/31/2007 3:46:00 PM

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For those of you who are interested in the
figure of Matt Talbot, a good scholar in A.A.
history named John Blair has just started
a website which brings together a enormous
amount of material on him:
______________________________

Venerable Matt Talbot Resource Center

http://venerablematttalbotresourcecenter.blogspot.com/

"The Venerable Matt Talbot Resource Center
blogspot exists to compile writings about the
life, times, and alcoholism recovery of Matt
Talbot (1856-1925) from Dublin, Ireland.
Disclaimer: The placing of information on
this blogspot from external linked sources
does not necessarily imply agreement with
that information. This center is independent
of any other group or organization."
______________________________

Among early AA authors, Father Ralph Pfau
(the Father John Doe of the Golden Books)
was a strong supporter of Matt Talbot as an
example of how a spiritual triumph over
alcoholism could be accomplished.

William D. Silkworth, M.D. (1873-1951) also
encouraged the formation of Matt Talbot
groups in Catholic parish churches in a
talk he gave which was published in the
National Clergy Conference on Alcoholism's
Blue Book: "The Prevention of Alcoholism:
A Challenge to the Catholic Clergy." This
article is available online at:

http://silkworth.net/silkworth/prevention.html

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 4782. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Pamphlet in Physician Heal
Thyself ???
From: TBaerMojo@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/3/2008 9:09:00 AM

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If you google for the words "15 points for an
alcoholic to consider" you will find a pdf of
a brochure by that name printed by Alcoholics
Anonymous - UK which has the text that you are
seeking.

http://www.alcoholics-anonymous.org.uk/newcomer/pack/15_Points.pdf

I have a photocopy of a very old version of
the same information printed by Street Printing
Company in Birmingham, Alabama in the 1940s.
It was locally produced but I have not yet
found a surviving original printed copy.

Tim B.

- - - -

Terry W. was looking for the source of
these two phrases:

One said, "Don't feel that you are a martyr
because you stopped drinking," and this hit
me between the eyes.

The second one said, "Don't feel that you
stop drinking for anyone other than your-
self," and this hit me between the eyes.

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++++Message 4783. . . . . . . . . . . . Little Red Book: first 7 editions
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/4/2008 3:35:00 PM

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A while back, Jack H. in Scottsdale, Arizona,
told me that there were two print runs of
The Little Red Book made in 1949. The only
difference between the two 1949 print runs
was that the first printing had a minor
typesetting error (a segment of text inserted
upside down) and was recalled as soon as this
was discovered, so that not many copies of
the first printing actually got out.

- - - -

Mark F. just sent me an email in which he said:

To Whom it May concern: I received a Little
Red Book from my sponsor after he passed away,
the cool thing is it is a 1949 First Printing.
To verify the two top sentences on pg 62 are
upside down. So I can see why they decided
to produce a second printing that year.
Thanks for the information.

- - - -

So based on what Mark has now verified about
the 1949 printing, together with the inform-
ation we already had posted from Jack H.
(Scottsdale, Arizona) and Tommy H. (Baton
Rouge, Louisiana), we can lay out a fully
verified time line and description for all of
the early printings of The Little Red Book.

1st edition August 1946

2nd edition January 1947 (distinctively red cover)

3rd edition later in 1947 (dull maroon cover)

4th edition 1948

5th edition 1949 had two print runs. In the
first print run, the two top sentences on
pg 62 were upside down. This was corrected
in the second print run.

6th edition 1950

7th edition 1951 (and so on)

- - - -

Ed Webster kept on making changes in the book
during that period from 1946 to 1949, and in
fact kept on making changes in the book all
the way to the end of his life in 1971.

We should remember that numerous changes were
also made in The Little Red Book after Ed
Webster's death on June 3, 1971, by editors
at the Hazelden Foundation who believed that
they "could write better" about alcoholism
than Ed Webster. But they did not make changes
that fundamentally changed any of the basic
material, so the version of The Little Red
Book currently available from Hazelden is
still usable for AA beginners classes.

Use of The Little Red Book was approved by
the New York AA office at a very early date,
and it is perfectly acceptable for reading
in AA meetings.

Jack H. argued that the 1949 edition should
be taken as a kind of benchmark version for
many purposes, since this was the last edition
where Dr. Bob had had any input into the book.
I can see a kind of sense in what he said.

- - - -

Message 4021 from Glenn Chesnut
glennccc@sbcglobal.net (glennccc at sbcglobal.net)
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/4021
laid out most of this.

See also http://hindsfoot.org/ed02.html

And thanks again to Mark F. for writing me
and telling me what he had found.

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++++Message 4784. . . . . . . . . . . . Bob P.''s obituary
From: Mike . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/4/2008 11:05:00 AM

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From today's Idaho Mountain Express:

Robert Greenlees Pearson

With his wife, Betsy, children, Brad, Wendy
and Ridley, their spouses and his grandchil-
dren by his side, Bob Pearson died peacefully
of "old age" in his home in Bellevue, Idaho,
on Jan. 1, 2008.

Born the only child of somewhat nomadic parents,
Ridley Stilson and Agnes Greenlees Pearson,
on Feb. 19, 1917, Bob was not formally edu-
cated until the third grade. He took to
academics easily, skipping grades and gradu-
ating from Kansas University at 18, where he
served as editor of both the university's
humor magazine and yearbook. A skilled writer,
Bob was the focus of a national scandal when
a Scribner's Magazine article, "Ghost Behind
the Grade," published in 1938, revealed that
e had paid his way through college by ghost-
writing hundreds of grade-specific papers for
fellow students in dozens of classes and
seven universities. His writing led him to
New York City where he went to work for the
Shell Oil Co. in public relations, and later
met his wife of 63 years, Betsy Dodge.

With the advent of World War II, Bob enlisted
as an officer in the U.S. Navy, and was
assigned aboard a destroyer escort as the
ship's gunnery officer. He participated in
numerous missions in convoys across the
Atlantic. Bob wrote speeches for the admiral
of the Navy, as well as for two presidents,
Franklin D. Roosevelt and Harry Truman. His
destroyer escort was part of the historic
capture of a German U-boat, north of the
Azores. It was the first submarine ever
boarded and taken prior to the destruction
of any of its hardware or its Enigma radio
codes -— only days prior to D-Day, later
immortalized in the motion picture "U-571."
In 1945, he was honorably discharged,
holding the rank of lieutenant commander.

Following the war, Bob and Betsy eventually
settled in Riverside, Connecticut, where Bob
was an avid runner and skier and served as
senior deacon in the First Congregational
Church of Greenwich. In his 38 years with
Shell Oil, Bob's most notable accomplishments
involved that company's sponsoring of major
sports. Working with the NBC television
network, Bob was instrumental in popularizing
golf by bringing the sport to live television
for the first time in "Shell's Wonderful World
of Golf." He also participated in Shell's
sponsorship of Craig Breedlove's pursuit of
the world land speed record in a jet-propelled
car, on the Bonneville Salt Flats in the
mid-1960s.

But it was Bob's personal crisis that would
prove to define his life. Beginning with his
service in the Navy, Bob had grown addicted
to alcohol and, some 20 years later, nearly
died of alcoholism. He was encouraged by
physicians to join a fledgling group called
Alcoholics Anonymous, in Greenwich, Connect-
icut, in 1961. Bob P., as he was known in
that organization, found sobriety and dedi-
cated himself to AA service, even working on
occasion with its co-founder, Bill W. He
served on local and national boards of AA, and
eventually was appointed general manager of
AA's World Service Organization, where, for
10 years, 1974-1984, he oversaw the enormous
international growth and spread of AA worldwide.
The organization played an influential role in
the establishment of over a hundred unrelated,
so-called 12-step programs, which have resulted
in millions' conquering various addictions.
Through his service to AA, Bob P., with wife
Betsy (a longtime member of Al-Anon), traveled
the world, speaking to both small AA groups as
well as at its international conventions of
50,000 or more attendees. His "AA story" was
published as the closing story in "Alcoholics
Anonymous," AA's "Big Book," which remains one
of the most widely published and perennially
best-selling books in the world.

Bob and Betsy moved part-time to Bellevue,
Idaho, in 1980, soon making it their permanent
home. Here, Bob P. continued to serve AA, both
as a speaker and contributor to its national
archives. Bob's life was defined by his
dedicated service to Alcoholics Anonymous, an
organization whose members depend on one
another for their survival. His family wishes
to extend their thanks to the hundreds of local
AA members, and thousands of national members,
who supported Bob's sobriety, gave him a
charmed life, and who continue the great
traditions of this wonderful and necessary
organization.

A memorial celebrating Bob P.'s service in
Alcoholics Anonymous will be held Friday,
Jan. 11, (check local flyers) in Sun Valley,
Idaho; a public memorial for friends and
family will take place at the Church of the


Big Wood, Ketchum, Idaho, at 4 p.m., Saturday,
Jan. 12. Donations in Bob's name will be
gratefully accepted by the Sun Club, Ketchum,
Idaho.

(The entire Pearson family wishes to extend
their gratitude to Drs. Hall and Fairman,
Hospice and Palliative Care of the Wood River
Valley, and especially Johnna Pletcher and
Gloria Clark for their loving in-home care
and assistance.)

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++++Message 4785. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Little Red Book: first 7
editions
From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/4/2008 5:04:00 PM

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At 14:35 1/4/2008 , Glenn Chesnut wrote:
>
>1st edition August 1946
>
>2nd edition January 1947 (distinctively red cover)
>
>3rd edition later in 1947 (dull maroon cover)
>
>4th edition 1948
>
>5th edition 1949 had two print runs. In the
>first print run, the two top sentences on
>pg 62 were upside down. This was corrected
>in the second print run.
>
>6th edition 1950
>
>7th edition 1951 (and so on)

A nice summary, Glenn. However, I would note
that these early Little Red Books are usually
referred to by printing number, not edition.
That said, these numbers were not assigned
until the 11th printing in 1954.

I believe the more proper descriptive word
would be edition as you use it as changes were
made for the different printings. Use of the
word printing implies that the content is the
same, but we know that to be different in this
case.

For those interested, the copyrights are as
follows:

Printings 1-5 1946
6 1946-1950
7 1950
8-9 1951
11-14 1951
15-25 1957

There are no copies of the 10th printing that
I am aware of and I don't know the story.
Any info on this would be greatly appreciated.

I would also like to point out that this
information is for the Coll-Webb editions of
the Little Red Book and they are in a larger
format book than the Hazelden printings which
started some time in the 1960s. There are at
my count seven different types published by
Hazelden in the smaller format with the 1957
Coll-Webb copyright.

Glenn C. went on to say:

>Ed Webster kept on making changes in the book
>during that period from 1946 to 1949, and in
>fact kept on making changes in the book all
>the way to the end of his life in 1971.
>
>Jack H. argued that the 1949 edition should
>be taken as a kind of benchmark version for
>many purposes, since this was the last edition
>where Dr. Bob had had any input into the book.
>I can see a kind of sense in what he said.
>

I think Jack is correct. It would be inter-
esting to tabulate the changes from the first
printing in 1946 thru the fifth in 1949.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

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++++Message 4786. . . . . . . . . . . . AA Recovery Outcome Rates
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/6/2008 8:03:00 PM

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Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) Recovery Outcome
Rates: Contemporary Myth and Misinterpretation

January 1, 2008

By Arthur S. (Arlington, Texas),
Tom E. (Wappingers Falls, New York),
and Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

See http://hindsfoot.org/archive3.html

This article cannot be sent out in email
format, because of all its charts, graphs,
notes and so on.

It can be read as an Adobe PDF file:
http://hindsfoot.org/recout01.pdf

Or as an MS Word DOC file:
http://hindsfoot.org/recout01.doc

The A.A. Triennial Membership Surveys for
1977 through 1989 show that, of those people
who are in their first month of attending A.A.
meetings, 26% will still be attending A.A.
meetings at the end of that year.

Of those who are in their fourth month of
attending A.A. meetings (i.e., those who
have completed their initial ninety days,
and have thereby demonstrated a certain
willingness to really try the program),
56% will still be attending A.A. meetings
at the end of that year.

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++++Message 4787. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill W. and drugs
From: Jim S. . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/7/2008 1:03:00 PM

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Occasionally I hear or read that Bill W. took
"a laundry list" of drugs during his sober
years, yet I can't seem to get any details,
except for the false statement that he
"dropped acid for five years." Can anyone
point me to this "laundry list" he used?

Jim S.

- - - -

Jim,

SEDATIVES:

There are numerous references to Bill W. (and
many other early AA people, like Father John
Doe) taking "sedatives," which seems to have
meant mostly barbiturates and powerful bromide
compounds. These compounds were what drug
addicts call "downers," but barbiturates were
not designated as controlled substances in the
United States until 1970. Bromides just about
totally disappeared from the market when
better sedatives were developed.

LSD:

On LSD, go to our message board at
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/messages
and do a search for "LSD." You will find over
40 past messages on this topic. The basic
account of how Bill W. experimented with LSD
is found in Ernie Kurtz, "Drugs and the

Spiritual: Bill W. Takes LSD" in Ernie's book,
"The Collected Ernie Kurtz," p. 39.

At the time Bill W. was experimenting with
it, it had only recently been developed.
It was not yet illegal, nor had its
potential for misuse and harm been dis-
covered yet.

MARIJUANA:

In the 1920s and 30s, musicians like Louis
Armstrong and Bing Crosby were using marijuana
(just as later on, Bob Dylan, John Lennon,
Paul McCartney, and John Denver used it).

In 1936, the movie "Reefer Madness" (originally
financed by a church group) portrayed high
school students being lured into marijuana
usage leading to a hit and run accident,
manslaughter, suicide, rape, and the descent
into madness:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reefer_Madness

Franklin D. Roosevelt's administration
criminalized marijuana in the United
States in 1937.

I have never found any reference however
to early AA members being involved
specifically with marijuana, or making
any specific mention of it, so I do not
know whether it was an issue to them or
not.

OTHER DRUGS:

As far as I can tell, when early AA people
referred to "drug addicts," they seem to
have been referring mostly to opium smokers
and people who injected heroin or snorted
cocaine. As the old jazz lyrics went,
"Honey, take a whiff on me":

http://sniff.numachi.com/pages/tiWHIFFME.html
http://www.cocaine.org/cocaine-habit.html
http://www.traditionalmusic.co.uk/folk-songs-with-chords/Take%20A%20Whiff%20
On%2\

0Me.htm [1]

Early AA people were a different social
class (doctors, lawyers, stock brokers,
business people, newspaper people, and
so on) from the jazz musicians and people
from the urban slums who were involved
in drugs of that sort back in the 1930s
and 40s.

Most Americans were not exposed to these
drugs in the 1930s, 40s, and 50s. In fact,
it was not until the latter 1960s and early
70s that the average American came into any
contact with drugs of this sort.

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

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++++Message 4788. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Little Red Book: first 7
editions
From: handlebarick . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/5/2008 6:06:00 PM

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Greetings all; I have:
1. A Large Second Printing January 1947 Copyright 1946 By Coll-Webb
Company International Copyright 1946. Has no outside writing on
cover. This one on inside page one (counting back from first page
with a number being # NINE)is printed only the words The Twelve
Steps. On page three printed is: An Interpretation of The Twelve
Steps of the Alcoholics Anonymous Program, Coll-Webb Co., Publishers
P.O. Box 564 Minneapolis, Minnesota MCMXLVII
Copyright info is on page four.

2.A Large Eighteenth Printing 1964 and on (unnumbered)page one only
states: The Little Red Book On page (unnumbered)three printing is:
The Little Red Book An Orthodox Interpretation of The Twelve Steps
of the Alcoholics Anonymous Program 1964 The Little Red Book Box
564, Main P.O. Minneapolis, Minnesota 55440 United States of America.
Page four has Copyright 1957 International Copyright 1957 By Coll-
Webb Company. Also on this page is a lists of printings that reads:
1st printing 1946
2nd printing 1947
3rd printing 1947
4th printing 1948
5th printing 1949
6th printing 1950
7th printing 1951
8th printing 1952
9th printing 1953
10TH PRINTING 1954*
11th printing 1955
12th printing 1957
13th printing 1959
14th printing 1960
15th printing 1961
16th printing 1962
17th printing 1963
18th printing 1964
* states 10th printing
Also printed on this page is: $2.50 U.S.A. $2.75 Outside Territorial
U.S.A. Printed and Manufactured in the United States of America.

3. A (Still) LARGE Twenty-fourth printing 1970. Page one (unnumbered)
prints: The Little Red Book. Page three states The Little Red Book An
Orthodox Interpretation of The Twelve Steps Of The Alcoholics
Anonymous Program 1970 Hazelden Center City, Minnesota 55012. Page
four states: Copyright 1957 International Copyright 1957 By Coll-Webb
Company. Also on this page:
Twenty Printings from 1946-1966
21st printing 1967
22nd printing 1968
23rd printing 1969
24th printing 1970

4. A Large 1996 50th Anniversary by Hazelton/Pittman

5. A Small edition. Page one (unnumbered) reads: THe Little Red Book.
Page three states: The Little Red Book An Orthodox Interpretation of
The Twelve Steps of The Alcoholics Anonymous Program Hazelden Center
City, MN, 55012 Page four is limited to Copyright 1957 International
Copyright 1957 By Coll-Webb Company. (No printing Date or number)
Also page four has ISBN 0-89486-004-6 Printed and Manufactured in the
United States of America.

6. A Small Revised Edition Inside unnumbered page three reads: The
Little Red Book. Inside unnumbered page five states: The Little Red
Book Hazelden (only) Inside unnumbered page six: First published
1957 Revised Edition, Copyright 1986 Hazelden Foundation. Printed in
the United States of America. Also has Editor's note: proclaiming
it's disclaimer. Author's Note is numbered 1.

All these books have statements of Rights Reserved on page four.

Rick S. Wapakoneta, OH

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Tom Hickcox <cometkazie1@...>
wrote:
>
> At 14:35 1/4/2008 , Glenn Chesnut wrote:
> >
> >1st edition August 1946
> >
> >2nd edition January 1947 (distinctively red cover)
> >
> >3rd edition later in 1947 (dull maroon cover)
> >
> >4th edition 1948
> >
> >5th edition 1949 had two print runs. In the
> >first print run, the two top sentences on
> >pg 62 were upside down. This was corrected
> >in the second print run.
> >
> >6th edition 1950
> >
> >7th edition 1951 (and so on)
>
> A nice summary, Glenn. However, I would note
> that these early Little Red Books are usually
> referred to by printing number, not edition.
> That said, these numbers were not assigned
> until the 11th printing in 1954.
>
> I believe the more proper descriptive word
> would be edition as you use it as changes were
> made for the different printings. Use of the
> word printing implies that the content is the
> same, but we know that to be different in this
> case.
>
> For those interested, the copyrights are as
> follows:
>
> Printings 1-5 1946
> 6 1946-1950
> 7 1950
> 8-9 1951
> 11-14 1951
> 15-25 1957
>
> There are no copies of the 10th printing that
> I am aware of and I don't know the story.
> Any info on this would be greatly appreciated.
>
> I would also like to point out that this
> information is for the Coll-Webb editions of
> the Little Red Book and they are in a larger
> format book than the Hazelden printings which
> started some time in the 1960s. There are at
> my count seven different types published by
> Hazelden in the smaller format with the 1957
> Coll-Webb copyright.
>
> Glenn C. went on to say:
>
> >Ed Webster kept on making changes in the book
> >during that period from 1946 to 1949, and in
> >fact kept on making changes in the book all
> >the way to the end of his life in 1971.
> >
> >Jack H. argued that the 1949 edition should
> >be taken as a kind of benchmark version for
> >many purposes, since this was the last edition
> >where Dr. Bob had had any input into the book.
> >I can see a kind of sense in what he said.
> >
>
> I think Jack is correct. It would be inter-
> esting to tabulate the changes from the first
> printing in 1946 thru the fifth in 1949.
>
> Tommy H in Baton Rouge
>

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++++Message 4789. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bob P.''s obituary
From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/5/2008 4:13:00 PM

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At 10:05 1/4/2008 , Mike wrote:

>His
>destroyer escort was part of the historic
>capture of a German U-boat, north of the
>Azores. It was the first submarine ever
>boarded and taken prior to the destruction
>of any of its hardware or its Enigma radio
>codes -— only days prior to D-Day, later
>immortalized in the motion picture "U-571."

I mean no disrespect to the memory of Bob P
but this statement is incorrect.

Since it has nothing to do with A.A. history,
those interested may contact me off-list for
the details.

Tommy H

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++++Message 4790. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W. and drugs
From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/7/2008 2:28:00 PM

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A doctor came with a heavy sedative. Next day
found me drinking both gin and sedative without
the usual penalty.

http://www.aabibliography.com/aapioneers/bills_story.htm

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++++Message 4791. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W. and drugs
From: Corky . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/7/2008 10:04:00 PM

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Jim S.

Chapter 23 in "Pass It On" (pp. 368-377) refers
to Bill's experiment with LSD.

Corky F.

- - - -

This reference also sent in by Jim L.
Sober186@aol.com (Sober186 at aol.com)

- - - -

Original Message from: Jim S.
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 12:03 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Bill W. and drugs

Occasionally I hear or read that Bill W. took
"a laundry list" of drugs during his sober
years, yet I can't seem to get any details,
except for the false statement that he
"dropped acid for five years." Can anyone
point me to this "laundry list" he used?

Jim S.

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++++Message 4792. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill W''s travels from Brooklyn to
Newark
From: schaberg43 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/12/2008 11:46:00 AM

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Research tells me that Bill Wilson lived at
182 Clinton Street in Brooklyn NY in 1938 and
that, during that year, he dictated chapters
of the Big Book to Ruth Hock in the Newark,
New Jersey, offices of Honor Dealers at
17 Williams Street.

Bill did not have a car, (nor, to my knowledge,
did he have a friend with a car), so how did
he get from the borough east of Manhattan to
Newark, New Jersey, with some regularity?

I have asked older New York friends and they
have not been able to recall what forms of
public transportation might have been in
place at that time for such an extensive
trip (according to Google Maps over 13 miles
-- 10 of those in New Jersey).

AND, if anyone does have an idea of how Bill
might have accomplished this, can you estimate
the time it might have taken and how much it
might have cost?

Best,

Old Bill


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++++Message 4793. . . . . . . . . . . . History of the term Conference
Approved
From: chief_roger . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/12/2008 10:22:00 AM

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In diner discussion recently following a
meeting the question was raised, when did we
begin to use the term conference approved AA
literature to separate it as different from
central office publications and other material
related to alcoholism or recovery?

I searched the many postings on conference
approved, have the Box 459 article explaining
what is meant and not meant and discovered
that the very first GSC Literature Committee
Advisory Action in 1951 was "In future years,
A.A. textbook literature should have Conference
approval (Agenda Committee). Prior to the
vote on this subject, it was pointed out that
the adoption of the suggestion should not
preclude the continued issuance of various
printed documents by non-Foundation sources.
No desire to review, edit or censor non-
Foundation material is implied. The objective
is to provide, in the future, a means of
distinguishing Foundation literature from
that issued locally or by non-A.A. interests."

This seems the beginning of AA practice in
separating literature.

Anyone know how the term "conference approved"
evolved into the AA lexicon?

Roger W.

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++++Message 4794. . . . . . . . . . . . AA success rate: revised/updated
report
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/14/2008 9:07:00 PM

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During the past week, members of the group
have written in about the article "Alcoholics
Anonymous (AA) Recovery Outcome Rates:
Contemporary Myth and Misinterpretation,"
with some corrections and also some sugges-
tions for a slight revision here and there.

The original version (see Message 4786) was
put on line on January 6, 2008.

The revised/updated report has now been placed
on line as of this evening (January 14, 2008).

It can be read as an Adobe PDF file:
http://hindsfoot.org/recout01.pdf

Or as an MS Word DOC file:
http://hindsfoot.org/recout01.doc

Among other observations, this article notes
how the A.A. Triennial Membership Surveys
show that, of those people who are in their
first month of attending A.A. meetings,
26% will still be attending A.A. meetings
at the end of that year.

And of those who are in their fourth month
of attending A.A. meetings (i.e., those who
have completed their initial ninety days,
and have thereby demonstrated a certain
willingness to really try the program),
56% will still be attending A.A. meetings
at the end of that year.

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++++Message 4795. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W''s travels from Brooklyn
to Newark
From: Tom White . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/12/2008 6:53:00 PM

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Dear Old Bill:

I really should not be writing this "answer,"
but I can't resist a little nostalgic ponti-
ficating. Remember, this was in the LATE
THIRTIES, a period before every man Jack and
his son Joe had a car, maybe two or three,
and the streets were manageable in a way
people can hardly imagine today. But that
is not really important in this connection.

What is important is that the city of New
York, all five boroughs, had a smashingly
great, world-class, transport system and,
as a late as my time (1950s), the unit cost
for some incredibly long rides was a nickel,
five cents, really. It may have been that
Bill would have had to add a few cents for
the jog into New Jersey, but I don't know.
Never went there much myself except by ferry
to Hoboken (5 cents) to have some early a.m.
beers, because they opened early or never
shut, I forget which.

Mind you the whole thing from Brooklyn to
Jersey would have taken but minutes. Some
old-timer may know just how many. 13 miles
is a hop skip and a jump. It was then, and
should be now, but we have forgotten how it
to do it. Get your car out and expect it take
two hours, maybe more. Progress: the deepest
illusion of Americans.

Tom W. Odessa, TX

- - - -

From: "tommy" <fulmertr@etown.edu>
(fulmertr at etown.edu)

The DeCamp bus line started in 1870 and is
still running today from New York to New Jersey.

web site <http://www.decamp.com/about.htm>

Hope this helps, Tommy

- - - -

From: "Lee Nickerson" <snowlily@megalink.net>
(snowlily at megalink.net)

Bus: Brooklyn Bridge to Canal St., thru
Holland Tunnel to Jersey City, north two miles
or so to Newark. Probably 10 cents each way.

- - -

From: "johnlawlee" <johnlawlee@yahoo.com>
(johnlawlee at yahoo.com)

I've asked myself the same question, having
crossed from Manhattan to New Jersey hundreds
of times, both drunk and sober. My speculation
is that Hank Parkhurst drove Bill to New
Jersey regularly, but not daily.

Bill took the subway from Brooklyn Heights
to Lower Manhattan. Hank lived in Montclair,
a nice suburb of Newark. Hank would have
likely driven to Lower Manhattan, picked up
Bill, and gone either to Newark or Towns
Hospital on Central Park West. The two of
them were visiting Towns weekly, trying to
save drunks.

There were no PATH trains from New Jersey
to the World Trade Center at that time. Bill
could have taken a bus from Lower Manhattan
through the Holland Tunnel to Newark, but
the trip from Brooklyn to Newark would have
taken a half day.

There's always been the Main Line of the
Pennsylvania Railroad from Pennsylvania
Station to downtown Newark, but that would
have involved numerous subway transfers.

I suspect that Bill only went to the Newark
office once or twice a week, and tried to
dovetail those visits with 12th Step work
with Hank.

Bill was undoubtedly eager to move the
office to Lower Manhattan, the location of
his past glories.

*****************************

Original message 4792 from
<schaberg@aol.com> (schaberg at aol.com)

> Research tells me that Bill Wilson lived at
> 182 Clinton Street in Brooklyn NY in 1938 and
> that, during that year, he dictated chapters
> of the Big Book to Ruth Hock in the Newark,
> New Jersey, offices of Honor Dealers at
> 17 Williams Street.
>
> Bill did not have a car, (nor, to my knowledge,
> did he have a friend with a car), so how did
> he get from the borough east of Manhattan to
> Newark, New Jersey, with some regularity?
>
> I have asked older New York friends and they
> have not been able to recall what forms of
> public transportation might have been in
> place at that time for such an extensive
> trip (according to Google Maps over 13 miles
> -- 10 of those in New Jersey).
>
> AND, if anyone does have an idea of how Bill
> might have accomplished this, can you estimate
> the time it might have taken and how much it
> might have cost?
>
> Best,
>
> Old Bill

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++++Message 4796. . . . . . . . . . . . AA success rate: 92% and 85% in
Tennessee
From: Wesley Brauer . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/15/2008 1:40:00 PM

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My name is Wes, I reside in New York.

But while living in Tennessee, a friend of
mine conducted a survey of sober members in
Area 64. His name is Scott L.

He found that members that do service work
have a recovery rate of 92% if you commit to
2 hours per month of a service commitment in
the area, district or intergroup level.

He also found that if you did a minimal 4 hrs
per month at the home group level there was
an 85% recovery rate!

Wes Brauer

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++++Message 4797. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Little Red Book: the earliest
printings
From: DudleyDobinson@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/13/2008 1:26:00 PM

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Thanks Rick,

I can complete a couple of gaps in your list.

The 19th & 20th printings were made in 1965
& 1966.

Also there were two printings in 1970:
the 24th & 25th.

Worth noting that the text in the 50th
anniversary edition in 1996 is actually from
the 1949 5th printing.

[ photo at http://hindsfoot.org/ed02.html ]

I have all these books with the exception
of the 10th, which I have been looking for
for some seven years. Also I do not have
the copy of the fifth printing run with an
error on page 62, which I was only recently
made aware of through being a member of
this group.

In fellowship - Dudley

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++++Message 4798. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: History of the term Conference
Approved
From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/14/2008 5:39:00 PM

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Hi Roger

I love getting into these kind of AA history
fragments.

There were only 37 US and Canadian Panel 1
Delegates (1/2 the planned number) at the
first General Service Conference in 1951, but
they passed quite a few advisory actions (16)
all of which were passed unanimously.

Among them was one that read "This Conference
feels that in future years AA textbook
literature should have Conference approval."

There was also a notation that "Prior to the
vote on this subject, it was pointed out that
adoption of the suggestion would not preclude
the continued issuance of various printed
documents by non-Foundation sources. No desire
to review, edit or censor non-Foundation
material is, implied. The objective is to
provide, in the future, a means of distin-
guishing Foundation literature from that
issued locally or by non-AA interests."

The 1951 Conference did not have a Conference
Committee on Literature. The four 1951
Conference Committees were: a "Committee
on New Trustees," an "Advisory Committee on
the Budget," a "Committee on Agenda," and a
"Committee on the Conference Report." The
Committee on Agenda presented the recommend-
ation on Conference-approved literature
(this is parenthetically noted in publication
M-39 which records all the advisory actions
that were passed by the Conferences).

Based on the 1951 Conference recommendation,
a Trustee's (or Foundation's) Committee on
Literature was formed to make a report to
the 1952 Conference recommending literature
that should be retained and future literature
items that would be needed. Bill W also
reported on the literature projects he was
engaged in.

In 1952, Panel 2 (consisting of 38 additional
delegates) joined with Panel 1 for the first
Conference of all Delegates attending. Seven
Conference Committees were formed (or renamed)
as "Nominating," "Finance," "Literature,"
"Policy," "Agenda," "Trustees," and "Conference
Report."

Among the 1952 Conference Literature
Committee's approved recommendations were:

1. That the report of the Foundation's
Committee on Literature, together with Bill's
report of his proposed program of activity
be approved.

2. That the following be incorporated on
all literature published by the Works
Publishing, Inc: "Issued by Works Publishing,
Inc., sole publishing agency of the Society
of Alcoholics Anonymous. Approved by the
General Service Conference of AA."

3. That this conference reaffirm the stand
taken by the 1951 Conference as follows:
"This conference has no desire to review,
edit, or censor non-Foundation material.
Our object is to provide, in the future,
a means of distinguishing Foundation
literature from that issued locally or
by non-AA interests."

By approving the Trustee's (or Foundation's)
Committee recommendations for literature
to be retained, the 1952 Conference retro-
actively approved the Big Book and several
existing pamphlets which included the long
form of the Traditions. Bill's approved
"program of activity" resulted in later
publication of six Conference-approved books:

**The 12&12 published in 1953

**The 3rd Legacy Manual published in 1955 -
renamed "The AA Service Manual" in 1969

**The 2nd edition Big Book published in 1955

**AA Comes of Age published in 1957

**The 12 Concepts for World Service published
in 1962

**The AA way of Life published in 1966 -
renamed As Bill Sees It in 1975

From perusing the final reports, it seems that
the terms "Conference-approved" or "Conference
approval" were well seeded (not necessarily
frequently stated) in the Conference vocabulary
in 1951 and 1952. While neither term appeared
in the 1953 Conference report, the 1954 report
was quite another matter and included the
term "Conference-approved" numerous times
throughout the report.

Cheers
Arthur

- - - -

Message 4793 from <chief_roger@yahoo.com>
(chief_roger at yahoo.com)

History of the term Conference Approved

In diner discussion recently following a
meeting the question was raised, when did we
begin to use the term conference approved AA
literature to separate it as different from
central office publications and other material
related to alcoholism or recovery?

I searched the many postings on conference
approved, have the Box 459 article explaining
what is meant and not meant and discovered
that the very first GSC Literature Committee
Advisory Action in 1951 was "In future years,
A.A. textbook literature should have Conference
approval (Agenda Committee). Prior to the
vote on this subject, it was pointed out that
the adoption of the suggestion should not
preclude the continued issuance of various
printed documents by non-Foundation sources.
No desire to review, edit or censor non-
Foundation material is implied. The objective
is to provide, in the future, a means of
distinguishing Foundation literature from
that issued locally or by non-A.A. interests."

This seems the beginning of AA practice in
separating literature.

Anyone know how the term "conference approved"
evolved into the AA lexicon?

Roger W.

Yahoo! Groups Links

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++++Message 4799. . . . . . . . . . . . Father Martin: heart attack
From: Mike Custer . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/16/2008 4:44:00 AM

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Last Thursday, Father Martin was hospitalized
after experiencing a heart attack. To date,
he is still hospitalized, however stable.

In keeping with our belief that prayer works,
join us in praying for his continued recovery.

Email us at fathermartin@fathermartin.com
your words of encouragement and well wishes.
Although Father Martin is unable to read
your message himself, Mae, Micki or another
family member will read your message to him.

Cards can be mailed to:

218 Fulford Ave
Bel Air, Maryland 21014

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++++Message 4800. . . . . . . . . . . . Extremely long early Big Book draft?
From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/15/2008 11:40:00 PM

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I have seen references in accounts of the
writing of the Big Book to an early draft that
yielded a book three to four times the length
of the one that was printed. The story goes
that the draft was put out for comment and a
number of persons said it was entirely too
long so it was cut back to its present form,
or close to it.

Manuscripts that are close to what was printed
survive. Indeed, they are available on eBay
for modest sums, usually.

My question to the group is how much of this
story about an extremely long early draft is
based on fact? If the story is generally
accepted as true, why did none of the original
much longer manuscripts survive? It seems
to me if enough copies were put out for
comment, some of them should have survived.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

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++++Message 4801. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: the phrase AA textbook
From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/15/2008 6:12:00 PM

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Message 4798 from "Arthur S"
<ArtSheehan@msn.com> (ArtSheehan at msn.com)
on "History of the term Conference Approved"

>I love getting into these kind of AA history
>fragments.
>
>There were only 37 US and Canadian Panel 1
>Delegates (1/2 the planned number) at the
>first General Service Conference in 1951, but
>they passed quite a few advisory actions (16)
>all of which were passed unanimously.
>
>Among them was one that read "This Conference
>feels that in future years AA textbook
>literature should have Conference approval."

- - - -

I love reading your contributions to this
forum, Arthur!

Did that panel define the term "A.A. textbook"?

I look in the two books that I consider to
be A.A. textbooks, the Big Book and the 12x12,
and the term textbook is used exactly once,
in the 12x12, and refers to school and
medical textbooks.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

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++++Message 4802. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Extremely long early Big Book
draft?
From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/16/2008 1:49:00 PM

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Hi Tom

I've found only two references to the reputed
drastic editing and paring of the original
Big Book manuscript. One is in "Bill W" by
Francis Hartigan (pg 126) the other in "Pass
It On" (pg 204). Both references are sustained
solely by anecdote and quite frankly I
question their accuracy (although, among a
number of fables in AA, it makes for enter-
taining legend).

"AA Comes of Age" is silent on the matter. If
such a severe paring did occur I find it hard
to believe that Bill W would have forgotten
to mention it (he colorfully discusses the
editing done to the personal stories and
member reaction to it).

The editing and paring was done by Tom Uzzell
in February/March 1939. 400 copies of the
manuscript had been distributed the prior
January (1939) for review and comment. The
version of the manuscript distributed, as you
note, clearly did not have a page count that
some attribute to it (i.e. 600 to 1200 pages).
Uzzell did his editing after those review
copies were returned.

The mark-up master manuscript, delivered to
Cornwall Press for creation of galley proofs,
was a copy of the manuscript distributed in
January 1939.

Check the links below for some fascinating
info and pictures:

http://aaholygrail.com/3.html
(very nice capsule history)

http://aaholygrail.com/1.html
(magnificent photos)

My guess is that claims of a 600-1200 page
manuscript serve to provide color but do not
accurately tell the Big Book story.

Cheers
Arthur

- - - -

From: John Lee <johnlawlee@yahoo.com>
(johnlawlee at yahoo.com)

The stories were edited severely, not the
first eleven chapters. The surplusage was
cut from the stories, not from the first
eleven chapters of Alcoholics Anonymous.
Very little was cut from the multilith
version, which didn't include the stories
[other than Bill's Story]. There were lots
of phraseology changes from the multilith
version, but very few deletions. The surgery
was performed by professional writer "friends"
of the First Hundred.

- - - -

Message 4800 from Tom Hickcox
<cometkazie1@cox.net> (cometkazie1 at cox.net)
asked the question:

I have seen references in accounts of the
writing of the Big Book to an early draft that
yielded a book three to four times the length
of the one that was printed. The story goes
that the draft was put out for comment and a
number of persons said it was entirely too
long so it was cut back to its present form,
or close to it.

Manuscripts that are close to what was printed
survive. Indeed, they are available on eBay
for modest sums, usually.

My question to the group is how much of this
story about an extremely long early draft is
based on fact? If the story is generally
accepted as true, why did none of the original
much longer manuscripts survive? It seems
to me if enough copies were put out for
comment, some of them should have survived.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

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++++Message 4803. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W''s travels from Brooklyn
to Newark
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/17/2008 3:52:00 PM

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From: Jared Lobdell <jlobdell54@hotmail.com>
about Bill W's travels from Brooklyn to Newark,

A response to: "johnlawlee"
<johnlawlee@yahoo.com> (johnlawlee at yahoo.com)

- - - -

JOHN:

There were no PATH trains from New Jersey
to the World Trade Center at that time.

- - - -

JARED:

It's true the lines were not called PATH and
the WTC didn't exist in the 1930s, but the
H&M (now PATH) lines between Hudson Terminal
(the WTC location) and Newark were in fact
opened in 1911 and were certainly in operation
in the 1930s.

- - - -

JOHN:

While it is physically possible to travel by
subways from Brooklyn to Newark, I can't see
Bill Wilson making that daily commute. Bill
was enthralled with Manhattan, and his
enthusiasm for Honor Dealers car wax was
tepid at best. Hank, Bill and Ruth were
crowded into a hole-in-the-wall office on
William Street, Newark after being evicted
from a larger suite in the same building.

The better view is that Bill bounced into
the Newark office once or twice a week to
give dictation to Ruth on Honor Dealers or
AA issues. Mitchell K's book, How It
Worked, indicates that "Bill was met at the
train station in New York by Hank P...."
upon returning from Akron with approval for
the book project and chain of hospitals
[p.90]. That would have been Penn Station in
Manhattan.

Susan Cheever thinks it's possible to take
a train from Grand Central to Akron, but
everyone else would have departed from Penn
Station, the magnificent work of McKim Mead
[see Cheever at p.131].

- - - -

JARED:

Not only physically possible (if we count
the H&M "tubes" as a "subway" -- though in
fact to Newark they used the Pennsy track past
Manhattan Transfer), but in fact the most
convenient way from BH to Newark by public
transportation, tho' I agree Bill would have
preferred to be driven, and that -- tho'
a "commute" -- it certainly wasn't something
Bill did every day.

I still can't agree with the implication of
your original statement that "there were no
PATH trains from New Jersey to the World Trade
Center at that time" -- tho' as I noted it's
technically true since it wasn't called PATH
and there was no WTC complex.

On your other point, evidence suggests to me
that the principal NY-Akron service was indeed
to and from Grand Central on the NYCentral,
not Penn Station on the Pennsy.

The Broadway Ltd (the chief Pennsy NY-Chicago
train) had as its stops (in the 1930s)
New York Penn Station, Newark Penn Station,
North Philadelphia, Paoli, Harrisburg,
Baker Street Station (Fort Wayne), Englewood
Union Station, Chicago Union Station (it hit
Cleveland in the very early hours of the
morning).

There were Cleveland (and Pittsburgh) stops
on trains running eastward to NY (Penn Station),
on the old Cleveland & Pittsburgh line, but
the Akron Pennsy station was part of the
Cleveland, Akron & Columbus (N/S) route and
not on the main C&P, so far as I know.

It's true that from 1923 to 1926 the B&O
operated the Capitol Limited (through Akron)
into Penn Station, but after 1926 into the
Jersey Central terminal at Jersey City.

So I can't say I agree that "everyone else"
would have gone from NY Penn Station to Akron
(unless I've overlooked a RR that served
Akron and came into Penn Station, which
is possible).

Do we know that Hank in fact usually drove
into NYC? -- he could easily have taken
the DL&W into Hoboken and the "tubes" over.

-- Jared

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++++Message 4804. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: the phrase AA textbook
From: Patricia . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/16/2008 10:15:00 AM

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Comments from Patricia, Jenny A., and Arthur S.

What did they mean by the phrase "AA textbook
literature" in the conference advisory action
passed in 1951?

- - - -

Responding to message 4798 from "Arthur S"
<ArtSheehan@msn.com> (ArtSheehan at msn.com)

... the first General Service Conference in
1951 ... passed quite a few advisory actions
(16) all of which were passed unanimously.
Among them was one that read "This Confer-
ence feels that in future years AA textbook
literature should have Conference approval."

- - - -

From: Patricia <pdixonrae@yahoo.com>
(pdixonrae at yahoo.com)

On the dust cover of my second, third and
fourth edition it says this book is the
basic text for Alcoholics Anonymous.

Patricia

- - - -

From: jenny andrews <jennylaurie1@hotmail.com>
(jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com)

Bill W describes 12 Steps and 12 Traditions
as "our textbook". (Alcoholics Anonymous Comes
of Age, Appendix B: Why Alcoholics Anonymous
is Anonymous).

The dust cover of the fourth edition of the
Big Book says it is "the basic text for
Alcoholics Anonymous."

Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary defines
a text as, first, "the original written or
printed words and form of a literary work."
For textbook it says "a book containing a
presentation of the principles of a subject."

- - - -

From: "Arthur S" <ArtSheehan@msn.com>

Hey Tom

"AA textbook" "basic text" and "text" are
terms that seemed to be well-seeded. My sense
is that the terms were initially used
generically early in AA history and over time
came to signify the Big Book pages numbered
1 thru 164 (previously 1 thru 174 in the
1st edition).

In AA Comes of Age" (pg 219) Bill W describes
the 12&12: "One more noteworthy event marked
this period of quiet: the publication of
A.A.'s Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions in
1953. This small volume is strictly a textbook
which explains A.A.'s twenty-four basic
principles and their application, in detail
and with great care."

On page 154, Bill refers to the Big Book:
"Suppose our embryo book were someday to
become the chief text for our fellowship."

Further Big Book references:

On page 162: Akronites like Paul and Dick S.
liked the new steps very much. As the remainder
of the book text developed, based on the
Twelve Steps, they continued to report their
approval.

On page 164: "We had not gone much farther
with the text of the book when it was evident
that something more was needed. There would
have to be a story or case history section."

[... also ...]

"It was felt also that the story section
could identify us with the distant reader in
a way that the text itself might not.

[... also ...]

"The cries of the anguished edited tale-
tellers finally subsided and the story
section of the book was complete in the
latter part of January, 1939. So at last
was the text."

On page 165: "Had we not better make a prepub-
lication copy of the text and some of the
stories and try the book out on our own
membership and on every kind and class of
person that has anything to do with drunks?"

On page 167: "One of them came from Dr. Howard,
a well-known psychiatrist of Montclair, New
Jersey. He pointed out that the text of our
book was too full of the words "you" and "must."

[... also ...]

"To make this shift throughout the text of
the book would be a big job."

On pages 200-201: At Oslo, we hope our Big
Book will soon be published in Norwegian.
Because of the language similarity, the
Danes and the Swedes will also be able to
read our basic text when it appears in Norwegian.

On page 220: "Everyone here at St. Louis knows
that we have just published the second edition
of the book Alcoholics Anonymous. Many of you
have it in your hands already. Today as we
pass A.A.'s twentieth milestone, it is quite
fitting that this long-pondered edition is now
in readiness for the future. The scope and
power of its case history section has been
increased, but of course the old familiar
text of the book stands unchanged."

On pages 315-316: "The first half of the book
is a text aimed to show an alcoholic the
attitude he ought to take and precisely the
steps he may follow to effect his own
recovery."

Cheers
Arthur

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++++Message 4805. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr Bob''s obsession
From: tsirish1 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/18/2008 12:22:00 PM

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I have heard for years in meetings the claim
that Dr. Bob never got over his mental
obsession to drink until the day he died.

If that is true, where is that statement
written?

Thanks,
BB Tim

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++++Message 4806. . . . . . . . . . . . Confusion on H. F. Heard
From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/21/2008 10:41:00 AM

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I have recently seen on a couple of AA-related
history sites a statement that H. F. Heard was
a pen-name for Aldous Huxley.

In fact H. F. Heard was Henry FitzGerald Heard
(1889-1971) who also wrote as Gerald Heard.

He was a friend of Aldous Huxley (and of Bill
Wilson) but he certainly was not Aldous
Huxley.

I thought perhaps this ought to be noted on
the HistoryLovers website.

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++++Message 4807. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: the phrase AA textbook
(correction)
From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/20/2008 7:41:00 PM

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Hi

Laurie A kindly pointed out to me that I
goofed on an AA Comes of Age page reference.

The ending citation referring to pages 315-316
are incorrect and should read 307-308.

Thanks Laurie!

Cheers
Arthur

-----Original Message-----
From: Arthur S [mailto:artsheehan@msn.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 8:23 PM
To: 'AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: the phrase AA textbook

Hey Tom

"AA textbook" "basic text" and "text" are terms that seemed to be
well-seeded. My sense is that the terms were initially used generically
early in AA history and over time came to signify the Big Book pages
numbered 1 thru 164 (previously 1 thru 174 in the 1st ed).

In AA Comes of Age" (pg 219) Bill W describes the 12&12: "One more
noteworthy event marked this period of quiet: the publication of A.A.'s
Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions in 1953. This small volume is strictly a
textbook which explains A.A.'s twenty-four basic principles and their
application, in detail and with great care."

On page 154, Bill refers to the Big Book: "Suppose our embryo book were
someday to become the chief text for our fellowship."

Further Big Book references:

On page 162: Akronites like Paul and Dick S. liked the new steps very much.
As the remainder of the book text developed, based on the Twelve Steps, they
continued to report their approval.

On page 164: "We had not gone much farther with the text of the book when it
was evident that something more was needed. There would have to be a story
or case history section." [... also ...] "It was felt also that the story
section could identify us with the distant reader in a way that the text
itself might not. [... also ...] "The cries of the anguished edited
taletellers finally subsided and the story section of the book was complete
in the latter part of January, 1939. So at last was the text."

On page 165: "Had we not better make a prepublication copy of the text and
some of the stories and try the book out on our own membership and on every
kind and class of person that has anything to do with drunks?"

On page 167: "One of them came from Dr. Howard, a well-known psychiatrist of
Montclair, New Jersey. He pointed out that the text of our book was too full
of the words "you" and "must." [... also ...] "To make this shift throughout
the text of the book would be a big job."

On pages 200-201: At Oslo, we hope our Big Book will soon be published in
Norwegian. Because of the language similarity, the Danes and the Swedes will
also be able to read our basic text when it appears in Norwegian.

On page 220: "Everyone here at St. Louis knows that we have just published
the second edition of the book Alcoholics Anonymous. Many of you have it in
your hands already. Today as we pass A.A.'s twentieth milestone, it is quite
fitting that this long-pondered edition is now in readiness for the future.
The scope and power of its case history section has been increased, but of
course the old familiar text of the book stands unchanged."

On pages 315-316: "The first half of the book is a text aimed to show an
alcoholic the attitude he ought to take and precisely the steps he may
follow to effect his, own recovery."

Cheers
Arthur

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tom Hickcox
Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 5:12 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: the phrase AA textbook

Message 4798 from "Arthur S"
<ArtSheehan@msn.com> (ArtSheehan at msn.com)
on "History of the term Conference Approved"

>I love getting into these kind of AA history
>fragments.
>
>There were only 37 US and Canadian Panel 1
>Delegates (1/2 the planned number) at the
>first General Service Conference in 1951, but
>they passed quite a few advisory actions (16)
>all of which were passed unanimously.
>
>Among them was one that read "This Conference
>feels that in future years AA textbook
>literature should have Conference approval."

- - - -

I love reading your contributions to this
forum, Arthur!

Did that panel define the term "A.A. textbook"?

I look in the two books that I consider to
be A.A. textbooks, the Big Book and the 12x12,
and the term textbook is used exactly once,
in the 12x12, and refers to school and
medical textbooks.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

Yahoo! Groups Links

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++++Message 4808. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Dr Bob''s obsession
From: Jay Lawyer . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/19/2008 6:14:00 AM

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BB Tom,

Open your BB. In Doctor Bob's Nightmare (pg
181, 3rd edition), he explains, "Unlike most
of our crowd, I did not get over my craving
for liquor much during the first two and
one-half years of abstinence. It was almost
always with me"

Here is your answer straight from the
Doc's mouth: for "the first 2-1/2 years,"
NOT "until the day he died."

So it would seem that this statement that you
have heard at meetings is untrue.

Jay

- - - -

Message #4805 from <tsirish1@yahoo.com>
(tsirish1 at yahoo.com)

I have heard for years in meetings the claim
that Dr. Bob never got over his mental
obsession to drink until the day he died.

If that is true, where is that statement
written?

Thanks,
BB Tim

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++++Message 4809. . . . . . . . . . . . Employees paying back for alcoholism
treatment
From: flat412acrehouse . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/19/2008 10:06:00 AM

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Big Book pages 142-143

Dear Glenn

I hope that you are keeping well.

With regards to the above pages from To
Employers it states, "For most alcoholics who
are drinking,or who are just getting over a
spree, a certain amount of physical treatment
is desirable, even imperative...If you propose
such a procedure to him, it may be necessary
to advance the cost of treatment, but we
believe it should be made plain to him that
any expense will later be deducted from
his pay."

One of our group wished to know where the
idea that your employee would pay back for
any of his medical treatment came from.

Thanking you in anticipation
Gentle blessings
Leah

- - - -

From the moderator:

I'm going to ask some of our group who
know more about the history of employee
medical and health insurance programs
in the United States if they can tell us
more about what it was like in 1939,
when the Big Book was published.

My father told me that the railroads had
railroad doctors back then, who would saw
off your leg if you were a railroad worker
who got your leg crushed between two
couplers. But do any of the people in
our group know if even that was common?

There were a few places in the U.S. by
1939 where employees could pay for medical
or hospitalization insurance, but this was
not widespread or common, to the best of
my knowledge.

And the problem with alcoholism was that
this was regarded by most people as a
moral failing, which should simply be
treated punitively. Just fire him! Or
throw him in jail. That was what most
people would have said.

So even the very few people who had some
kind of medical or hospitalization insurance
in 1939 would not have been able to use it
for alcohol-related problems.

The disease concept of alcoholism was
introduced in an attempt to get medical
treatment provided for alcoholics when
they needed it (for detoxing for example).

But in the U.S. in 1939, the idea that an
employer might advance money to an employee
to go into a hospital to detox (even if the
employee paid the money back afterwards)
was a quite radical new idea. To the best
of my knowledge anyway.

Who in our group knows more about employee
health benefits (if any) and how they were
handled in the U.S. back in the 1930's?

Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana)

- - - -

P.S. And for the sake of the younger folks
in the U.K. and places like that, we need
to remember that even in the U.K., the
National Health Service did not come along
until 1948.

See the Wikipedia article on "Health care"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care

"In most developed countries and many
developing countries health care is provided
to everyone regardless of their ability to
pay. The National Health Service in the United
Kingdom was the world's first universal
health care system provided by government.
It was established in 1948 by Clement Atlee's
Labour government. Alternatively, compulsory
government funded health insurance with
nominal fees can be provided, as with Italy,
which, according to the World Health Organisation,
has the second-best health system in the world.
Other examples are Medicare in Australia,
established in the 1970s by the Labor government,
and by the same name Medicare was established
in Canada between 1966 and 1984. Universal
health care contrasts to the systems like health
care in the United States or South Africa."

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++++Message 4810. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: the phrase AA textbook
From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/18/2008 7:15:00 PM

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Comments from Mitchell K. and Bill Lash:

From: "Mitchell K."
<mitchell_k_archivist@yahoo.com>
(mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com)

While the textbook defining continues, the
book Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions is
and has been identified as an interpretive
commentary written by a co-founder. If the
12&12 is a textbook by virtue of giving
information, The Little Red Book is also a
textbook of equal value and validity.

The description given by Alcoholics Anonymous
World Services, Inc. in the Conference-Approved
book Alcoholics Anonymous is, once again --
an interpretive commentary written by a
co-founder.

The 12&12 is not THE program. It is a
commentary ON the program. If the fact that
Bill and Tom Powers and probably Dr. Harry T.
wrote the book gives it validity, the fact
that Dr. Bob had a great deal of input into
the writing of The Little Red Book gives it
equal validity.

- - - -

From: Bill Lash <barefootbill@optonline.net>
(barefootbill at optonline.net)

And please don't miss that the foreword in the
12 & 12 (page 17) says, "The book 'Alcoholics
Anonymous' became the basic text of the
Fellowship, and it still is."

Just Love,

Barefoot Bill

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++++Message 4811. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Employees paying back for
alcoholism treatment
From: secondles . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/21/2008 3:07:00 PM

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Hi Folks !

I am one of those "old" ones who lived (as a
child) in the early 1930s living in a small
town in Vermont. My father worked in several
small but national branches of industry.

"Benefits" was not a term known then. Pay was
handled in cash in a small envelope. There
was nothing held out for taxes and there
never was an accounting (by the employer)
for wages paid annually.

I can only assume that the instance cited in
the Big Book might occur on a very individual
basis, and perhaps only as a speculation rather
than a common practice. The period of the
Great Depression (1930s) was a very unstable
time, and work, any work, was usually hard to
come by.

As Glenn remarks, public attitude was callous
or harsh regarding alcoholics, let alone
thinking of offering "help" or giving
"benefits."

Regards to all

Les

- - - -

"flat412acrehouse" <leah@...> wrote:
>
> Big Book pages 142-143
>
> Dear Glenn
>
> I hope that you are keeping well.
>
> With regards to the above pages from To
> Employers it states, "For most alcoholics who
> are drinking,or who are just getting over a
> spree, a certain amount of physical treatment
> is desirable, even imperative...If you propose
> such a procedure to him, it may be necessary
> to advance the cost of treatment, but we
> believe it should be made plain to him that
> any expense will later be deducted from
> his pay."
>
> One of our group wished to know where the
> idea that your employee would pay back for
> any of his medical treatment came from.
>
> Thanking you in anticipation
> Gentle blessings
> Leah

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++++Message 4812. . . . . . . . . . . . Photos of Victor Kitchen
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/24/2008 2:44:00 PM

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Photos of Victor C. Kitchen (from his family
and other sources) have now been collected at:

http://hindsfoot.org/kchange3.html

http://hindsfoot.org/kchange1.html

Vic was a member of the Oxford Group in New
York City and a friend of Bill Wilson's when
Bill joined the Oxford Group. Dr. Bob may
have met him too, when Vic visited Ohio as
part of an Oxford Group team.

Vic wrote an important Oxford Group work,
"I Was a Pagan."

Vic (a New York advertising executive) eventu-
ally became a full time worker for all the
rest of his life for the Oxford Group and its
successor Moral Re-Armament.

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++++Message 4813. . . . . . . . . . . . First woman in AA?
From: David LeBlanc . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/22/2008 11:53:00 PM

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A question came up in my group. Who was the
first woman to join AA and when did she join?

Can anyone help?

- - - -

From the moderator: if you go to our Message
Board at

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/messages

And do a search for "first woman" in quotation
marks, you will see that there is a lot of
debate about who holds this honor. Part of
this is a matter of definition. Do you just
want to know the first woman who tried the
program, even if she only stayed sober for
two or three weeks, and then went back out and
never came back?

Message 3588 from Tom Hickcox
<cometkazie1@cox.net> (cometkazie1 at cox.net)
says (accurately I believe) that if we want
to ask who was the first woman who joined AA
and gained long term sobriety, that the top
two candidates are:

Sylvia Kauffmann, whose story in the Big
Book was the "Keys to the Kingdom"

Marty Mann, whose story in the Big Book
was "Women Suffer Too"

Nancy Olson, the founder of the
AAHistoryLovers, put together (with the
help of other members of this group)
a set of short biographies of the people
whose stories got in the Big Book. You
can read Nancy's account of both Sylvia's
life and Marty's life (with photographs of
both women) in that set of biographies.

This appears in more than one place online,
but one place is Al W.'s West Baltimore AA
website (Al and Nancy were very good friends,
and Al was one of her greatest personal
supporters):

http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/Authors.htm

If you want a fuller account of Mrs. Marty
Mann's life, the full biography is Sally
Brown and David R. Brown, "A Biography of
Mrs. Marty Mann: The First Lady of Alco-
holics Anonymous (Center City, Minnesota:
Hazelden, 2001).

There is also interesting material about
Marty Mann in passing in both of these books:

http://hindsfoot.org/kNO1.html

http://hindsfoot.org/kBS1.html

Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana)

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++++Message 4814. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: the phrase AA textbook
From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/21/2008 5:11:00 PM

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>From: Bill Lash <barefootbill@optonline.net>
>(barefootbill at optonline.net)
>
>And please don't miss that the foreword in the
>12 & 12 (page 17) says, "The book 'Alcoholics
>Anonymous' became the basic text of the
>Fellowship, and it still is."

- - - -

That part of the foreword has stuck out to me
for some time.

The foreword itself has a lot of useful
information. Do we know who wrote it?

The language says that the Big Book was not
written as "the basic text of the Fellowship"
but the book became that at some point down
the road. My question would be, what point
was that and what are the references for
that particular date?

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

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++++Message 4815. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: the phrase AA textbook
(correction)
From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/22/2008 6:44:00 AM

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We should note that the quotation from pp
307-8 in Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age
is from an appendix - a paper titled "A new
approach to psychotherapy in chonic alcoholism"
by William Silkworth, a non-AA member comment-
ing about the Big Book.

Laurie A.

- - - -

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.comFrom: ArtSheehan@msn.comDate: Sun, 20 Jan
2008 18:41:02 -0600Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: the phrase AA textbook
(correction)

Hi Laurie A kindly pointed out to me that I goofed on an AA Comes of Age
page
reference.The ending citation referring to pages 315-316 are incorrect and
should read 307-308.Thanks Laurie!CheersArthur-----Original
Message-----From:
Arthur S [mailto:artsheehan@msn.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 8:23
PMTo: 'AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com'Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Re:
the
phrase AA textbookHey Tom"AA textbook" "basic text" and "text" are terms
that
seemed to bewell-seeded. My sense is that the terms were initially used
genericallyearly in AA history and over time came to signify the Big Book
pagesnumbered 1 thru 164 (previously 1 thru 174 in the 1st ed).In AA Comes
of
Age" (pg 219) Bill W describes the 12&12: "One morenoteworthy event marked
this
period of quiet: the publication of A.A.'sTwelve Steps and Twelve Traditions
in
1953. This small volume is strictly atextbook which explains A.A.'s
twenty-four
basic principles and theirapplication, in detail and with great care."On
page
154, Bill refers to the Big Book: "Suppose our embryo book weresomeday to
become
the chief text for our fellowship."Further Big Book references:On page 162:
Akronites like Paul and Dick S. liked the new steps very much.As the
remainder
of the book text developed, based on the Twelve Steps, theycontinued to
report
their approval.On page 164: "We had not gone much farther with the text of
the
book when itwas evident that something more was needed. There would have to
be a
storyor case history section." [... also ...] "It was felt also that the
storysection could identify us with the distant reader in a way that the
textitself might not. [... also ...] "The cries of the anguished
editedtaletellers finally subsided and the story section of the book was
completein the latter part of January, 1939. So at last was the text."On
page
165: "Had we not better make a prepublication copy of the text andsome of
the
stories and try the book out on our own membership and on everykind and
class of
person that has anything to do with drunks?"On page 167: "One of them came
from
Dr. Howard, a well-known psychiatrist ofMontclair, New Jersey. He pointed
out
that the text of our book was too fullof the words "you" and "must." [...
also
...] "To make this shift throughoutthe text of the book would be a big
job."On
pages 200-201: At Oslo, we hope our Big Book will soon be published
inNorwegian.
Because of the language similarity, the Danes and the Swedes willalso be
able to
read our basic text when it appears in Norwegian.On page 220: "Everyone here
at
St. Louis knows that we have just publishedthe second edition of the book
Alcoholics Anonymous. Many of you have it inyour hands already. Today as we
pass
A.A.'s twentieth milestone, it is quitefitting that this long-pondered
edition
is now in readiness for the future.The scope and power of its case history
section has been increased, but ofcourse the old familiar text of the book
stands unchanged."On pages 315-316: "The first half of the book is a text
aimed
to show analcoholic the attitude he ought to take and precisely the steps he
mayfollow to effect his, own recovery."CheersArthur-----Original
Message-----From:
AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Tom HickcoxSent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 5:12 PMTo:
AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.comSubject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: the phrase AA
textbookMessage 4798 from "Arthur S" <ArtSheehan@msn.com> (ArtSheehan at
msn.com) on "History of the term Conference Approved">I love getting into
these
kind of AA history>fragments.>>There were only 37 US and Canadian Panel
1>Delegates (1/2 the planned number) at the>first General Service Conference
in
1951, but>they passed quite a few advisory actions (16)>all of which were
passed
unanimously.>>Among them was one that read "This Conference>feels that in
future
years AA textbook>literature should have Conference approval."- - - -I love
reading your contributions to this forum, Arthur!Did that panel define the
term
"A.A. textbook"?I look in the two books that I consider to be A.A.
textbooks,
the Big Book and the 12x12, and the term textbook is used exactly once, in
the
12x12, and refers to school and medical textbooks.Tommy H in Baton
RougeYahoo!
Groups Links

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++++Message 4816. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: the phrase AA textbook
From: dino . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/22/2008 11:09:00 AM

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Ditto to everything said by Mitch and Bill.
Nowhere in the Big Book does it say that
it's a text book. It says: "Because this book
has become the Basic text for our society..."

I think the key word here is basic (i.e. the
number 1, fundamental, main book used to
convey the story of how the first 40 members
recovered from alcoholism.)

In the 12&12 pg. 17 Bill states "When pub-
lished in 1939 the book Alcoholics Anonymous
became the basic text of our society and
still is the purpose of this present volume
(the 12&12) is to broaden and deepen our
understanding of the steps as first written
in the earlier work.

I would imagine(who knows?) that on pg. 219
of AACOA that Bill is intending the 12/12 to
instruct the (oftimes reluctant)fellowship at
large about the spiritual and practical
dimensions of the traditions and how they
complement and reinforce one another.

The Conference itself has never to my knowledge
refered to the 12/12 as a textbook.

THANKS

- - - -

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Mitchell K."
<mitchell_k_archivist@...> wrote:
>
> Comments from Mitchell K. and Bill Lash:
>
> From: "Mitchell K."
> <mitchell_k_archivist@...>
> (mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com)
>
> While the textbook defining continues, the
> book Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions is
> and has been identified as an interpretive
> commentary written by a co-founder. If the
> 12&12 is a textbook by virtue of giving
> information, The Little Red Book is also a
> textbook of equal value and validity.
>
> The description given by Alcoholics Anonymous
> World Services, Inc. in the Conference-Approved
> book Alcoholics Anonymous is, once again --
> an interpretive commentary written by a
> co-founder.
>
> The 12&12 is not THE program. It is a
> commentary ON the program. If the fact that
> Bill and Tom Powers and probably Dr. Harry T.
> wrote the book gives it validity, the fact
> that Dr. Bob had a great deal of input into
> the writing of The Little Red Book gives it
> equal validity.
>
> - - - -
>
> From: Bill Lash <barefootbill@...>
> (barefootbill at optonline.net)
>
> And please don't miss that the foreword in the
> 12 & 12 (page 17) says, "The book 'Alcoholics
> Anonymous' became the basic text of the
> Fellowship, and it still is."
>
> Just Love,
>
> Barefoot Bill

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++++Message 4817. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: the phrase AA textbook
From: Dean at ComPlanners . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/22/2008 11:07:00 AM

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AAHistoryLovers,

In case it has been missed ...

The dust jacket of the Fourth Edition has
this statement: "This is the Fourth Edition
of the Big Book, the Basic Text for Alcoholics
Anonymous."

Note that the statement includes the entire
book. A Bill W. quote (from a 1953 letter)
appears on the inside flap: "The story
section of the Big Book is far more important
than most of us think. It is our principle
means of identifying with the reader outside
A.A.; it is the written equivalent of hearing
speakers at an A.A. meeting; it is our show
window of results."

Dean

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++++Message 4818. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Re: the phrase AA textbook
From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/25/2008 1:22:00 PM

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There is a great deal of "AA theater" in the
way some choose to officiously portray the
Big Book and ordain it to a hyper-hallowed
station on the altar of sobriety.

I love the Big Book, study it, and use it for
12th Step work. I also use the 12&12 and
consider it a necessary companion to the Big
Book given the minimal amount of text in the
Big Book on several of the 12 Steps. The 12
Steps and their explanation occurred late in
the production of the Big Book and it shows.
I believe the 12&12 was intended to compensate
for this and dislike seeing the 12&12 directly
or indirectly trivialized in comparison to
the Big Book.

It's been my understanding (and practice) to
refer to a particular portion of the Big Book
as the "basic text" of the book. That portion
is essentially defined by what is included in
the abridged edition. It is also the portion
of the Big Book that several Conferences
repeatedly put off-limits for any changes
during the development of the 4th edition. This
does not mean that the terms "basic text" and
"textbook" cannot be used to generically
describe other literature works. In fact,
historically, both terms have been used by
Bill W and the Conference to do just that.

In his January 1961 letter to Dr Jung, Bill W
wrote "There immediately came to me an
illumination of enormous impact and dimension,
something which I have since tried to describe
in the book, 'Alcoholics Anonymous,' and also
in 'AA Comes of Age,' basic texts which I am
sending to you."

The 1953 final Conference report, under
Literature Committee recommendations, noted
"Ask the Delegates to weigh this question
for submission to the 1954 Conference: Does
the Conference feel it should depart from
its purely textbook program by printing
non-textbook literature such as the 24 Hour
Book of Meditation?" The 12&12 was introduced
at the 1953 Conference so it seems that it
was considered a part of the "purely textbook
program" as were the rest of Bill's literature
projects approved by the 1952 General Service
Conference.

My impression is that the terms "text book"
and/or "basic text" generically applied to
any book that explained AA's principles (the
Steps, Traditions and later the Concepts).
Terminology can either illuminate or obfuscate.
Please see the embedded replies below and
make your own judgment:

-------------------------

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: the phrase
AA textbook -- Comments from Mitchell K. and
Bill Lash:

From: "Mitchell K."

Comment 1: While the textbook defining
continues, the book Twelve Steps and Twelve
Traditions is and has been identified as an
interpretive commentary written by a
co-founder. If the 12&12 is a textbook by
virtue of giving information, The Little
Red Book is also a textbook of equal value
and validity.

Reply 1:

Identified by whom and when and by what
authority? In AA Comes of Age" (pg 219) Bill W
describes the 12&12 with the statement: "One
more noteworthy event marked this period of
quiet: the publication of AA's Twelve Steps and
Twelve Traditions in 1953. This small volume
is strictly a textbook which explains AA's
twenty-four basic principles and their
application, in detail and with great care."
The 1952 final Conference report noted that
Bill W identified his plans for what became
the Steps portion of the 12&12 with a
description of it being "A series of orderly,
point-by-point essays on the Twelve Steps."
The 1952 final Conference report further noted
that "Bill exhibited to the Conference a sample
copy of 'Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions,'
his first full-length commentary on AA since
the writing of The Big Book." The statement
seems to also describe the Big Book as a
"full-length commentary" (which takes nothing
at all away from the Big Book).

Comment 2: The description given by Alcoholics
Anonymous World Services, Inc. in the
Conference-Approved book Alcoholics Anonymous
is, once again -- an interpretive commentary
written by a co-founder.

Reply 2:

All editions of the Big Book are silent on the
12&12. Can a specific source reference be
provided so that what is cited can be verified?
The 2007 Conference-Approved Literature Catalog
describes the 12&12 with the statement: "Bill
W's 24 essays on the Steps and the Traditions
discuss the principles of individual recovery
and group unity." The AA.org web site
description is "Twelve Steps and Twelve
Traditions (192 pages) Published in 1953,
this book contains a detailed interpretation
of principles of personal recovery and group
survival by Bill W, co-founder of the Fellow-
ship." It doesn't seem appropriate to me to
trivialize the 12&12 with the rubric
"interpretive commentary by a co-founder."
The 12&12 was a major and important work and
a very deliberate follow-on work to the Big
Book to explain the 12 Steps (and Traditions)
in detail.

Comment 3: The 12&12 is not THE program. It
is a commentary ON the program. If the fact
that Bill and Tom Powers and probably Dr.
Harry T. wrote the book gives it validity,
the fact that Dr. Bob had a great deal of
input into the writing of The Little Red Book
gives it equal validity.

Reply 3:

The attempted semantic distinctions of
uppercase "THE" and "ON" are fatuous and
absurd. The 12 Steps are the principles of
AA's program of recovery. Both the Big Book
and 12&12 provide "basic text" (i.e. "the
main body of a book") to explain those
principles. Bill W is credited as the primary
author of both works (and as a rule received
assistance from others in all his writing
projects). The 12&12 does a far better job
explaining Steps 6, 7 and 8 with its 20 pages
(pgs 63-82) of "interpretive commentary by
a co-founder" than do the 3 paragraphs of
"THE" program in the Big Book (pg 76).

It seems fairly obvious, and common sense,
that the 12&12 and Big Book are companion works
in an evolutionary sequence of accumulated
experience. When the Big Book was published
in 1939 Bill W was 4 years sober, there were 2
groups and around 100 members. When the 12&12
was published in 1953 Bill was 19 years sober,
there were an estimated 6,000 groups and
128,000 members. It suggests to me that a lot
more experience went into writing the 12&12
than the Big Book (I hope that doesn't consti-
tute AA heresy or apostasy).

From: Bill Lash <barefootbill@optonline.net>

Comment: And please don't miss that the
foreword in the 12 & 12 (page 17) says, "The
book 'Alcoholics Anonymous' became the basic
text of the Fellowship, and it still is."

Reply:

Please also don't miss the sentence that
immediately follows the one cited that states
"This present volume (i.e. the 12&12) proposes
to broaden and deepen the understanding of the
Twelve Steps as first written in the earlier
work." (i.e. the Big Book)

Also it seems relevant to cite the last para-
graph of the 12&12 Foreword (pg 18) which
states "It is hoped that this volume will
afford all who read it a close-up view of the
principle that made Alcoholics Anonymous what
it is."

Cheers

Arthur

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++++Message 4819. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr. Bob''s Continuing Temptation
From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/25/2008 12:28:00 PM

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From Dr. Bob's Last Major Talk, December 1948:

"The fact that my sobriety has been maintained
continuously for 13½ years doesn't allow me to
think that I am necessarily any further away
from my next drink than any of you people. I'm
still very human, and I still think a double
Scotch would taste awfully good. If it wouldn't
produce disastrous results, I might try it.
I don't know. I have no reason to think that
it would taste any different - but I have no
legitimate reason to believe that the results
would be any different, either."

This does suggest that he continued to think
about drinking.

- - - -

From: "johnlawlee" <johnlawlee@yahoo.com>
(johnlawlee at yahoo.com)

Many of the people posting messages on this
topic are confusing the term "obsession" with
a "craving" or urge to drink. An obsession is
an idea that blocks all other ideas. If an
alcoholic gets an obsession to drink, he always
drinks.

Doctor Bob's last obsession to drink was in
June of 1935. He reported thoughts of drinking
in his 1939 First Edition story, but never
had an obsession to drink after June of 1935.

The difference between a craving and an
obsession is explained on pages xxviii, xxix
and xxx of The Doctor's Opinion in the Big
Book.

John Lee
Pittsburgh

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++++Message 4820. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Employees paying back for
alcoholism treatment
From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/22/2008 7:50:00 AM

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In the early days in Cleveland, if one could
not afford treatment (which equated only to
detox in an "approved" hospital) there was
the AA Association. Members laid out the cost
of detox and the individual paid them back.
Usually, if a prospect was in danger of losing
their job or already had lost their job, the
local AA members visited the employer and due
to their overwhelming success and reputation,
the employer quite often allowed the alcoholic
employee to continue working after detox and
attending meetings. There was a connection
with the employer, the courts, the hospitals,
etc. and AA members so that wages could have
been garnished if the individual didn't pay
the cost back to the AAA so that others might
also benefit.

Records from Cleveland showed balance sheets
from the association showing who was in the
hospital, how much they owed, who paid back,
etc.

Not sure if this was what the book referred
to but I would think that the practice wasn't
unknown in other places.

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++++Message 4821. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: First woman in AA?
From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/25/2008 4:24:00 AM

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From Arthur S. and Bob S.

Florence Rankin (New York), Jane S. (Cleveland),
Sylvia Kauffmann (Chicago), Ethel Macy (Akron)

- - - -

David L. asked: A question came up in my group.
Who was the first woman to join AA and when did
she join?

- - - -

From: "Arthur S" <ArtSheehan@msn.com>
(ArtSheehan at msn.com)

The first woman member was Florence R
(from NY). Her 1st edition Big Book story is
"A Feminine Victory." She relocated to the
Washington DC/Baltimore area.

Sadly she died drunk in the early 1940s (a
possible suicide).

Fitz M identified her in the morgue.

Arthur

- - - -

From: "Robert Stonebraker"
<rstonebraker212@insightbb.com>
(rstonebraker212 at insightbb.com)

Who was first, Jane or Florence?

Both Florence Rankin (New York) and Jane S.
(Cleveland) came to AA in 1937, but I have
not been able to discover which was first
to join AA or, of course, the Oxford Group
as it was then.

This humorous story is from Pages 122 & 123
from Dr. Bob & The Good Oldtimers:

Word of Akron's "not-drinking-liquor club" had
already spread to nearby towns, such as Kent
and Canton, and it was probably early 1937
when a few prospects started drifting down
from Cleveland. In the beginning, it was in
twos and threes. (By 1939, there were two
carloads.)

Bob E. remembered that Jane S. was making the
35-mile trip to the meeting at T. Henry's in
1937, about the same time he started. Colorful
and vivacious, with a fine sense of humor,
Jane is said to be the first woman in the
area to have attained any length of sobriety -
meaning a few months.

Oldtimers long remembered her story of being
left unattended by her husband to supervise
the wallpapering of a room. Trouble was, she
and the paperhanger started drinking. Each
time he began to hang a roll of paper, one or
the other would walk into it. When her husband
came home that evening, both Jane and the
paperhanger had passed out, surrounded by
empty bottles (as her husband told her later)
and all bound up in shredded paper and waste.

- - - -

Sylvia Kauffmann got sober in September of
1939 in Chicago and, so far as I can find,
stayed sober till she died. At any rate,
she was credited having the longest
uninterrupted sobriety of any woman in AA.

I believe that Ethel Macy, who wrote "From
Farm To City," was the first lady to join AA
at Akron (May, 1941). She remained sober till
she died (April 1963).

Bob S.

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++++Message 4822. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: First woman in AA?
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/25/2008 4:31:00 PM

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Florence Rankin (New York), Jane S. (Cleveland),
Sylvia Kauffmann (Chicago), Ethel Macy (Akron),
Mary Campbell (from somewhere in the South),
Lil (in Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers pgs 97-98,
109, 241), and of course Marty Mann, are all
names of women which appear in accounts of the
early AA period.

- - - -

Message 3169 from "Mitchell K."
<mitchell_k_archivist@yahoo.com>
(mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com)
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/3169

The name Jane S. does not appear in any of
the early Cleveland archival materials or
dozens of meeting rosters or histories of all
the original groups compiled by Norm E., the
recording statistician from the Cleveland
Central Committee in the early 1940's.

- - - -

Message 4543 from "t"
<tcumming@nc.rr.com> (tcumming at nc.rr.com)
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/4543

"First 100" [list] has the name
Jane Sturden on it.

- - - -

Message 3132 from <ArtSheehan@msn.com>
(ArtSheehan at msn.com)
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/3132

The first woman to arrive on the scene in AA
(in 1935) was the legendary "Lil" of the
"Victor and Lil" duo in Akron, OH (re "Dr Bob
and the Good Oldtimers pgs 97-98, 109, 241).
"Lil" reputedly sobered up outside AA. However,
it is said she never got far enough along to
attend a meeting.

"Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers" provides
Jane S' relative dry date through old-timer
Bob E. On pg 101 it states "Bob E who came
into AA in February 1937" (then on pg 122)
"remembered that Jane S was making the
35-mile trip to the meeting at T Henry's in
1937, about the same time he started" [Jane's
trip was from Cleveland to Akron]. Pg 241
later indicates that Jane was the wife of
a "vice-president of a large steel company."

The key words in her relative dry date are
"about the same time" [relative to February
1937]. I can't find a hard written reference
to confirm it, but sources I trust for
credibility indicate that Jane S stayed sober
for only a few months.

"Pass It On" mentions Florence R. On pg 202 it
states "The name 'One Hundred Men' fell by the
wayside because of objections of Florence R,
at that time the only female member." It's odd
that Jane S' name isn't also mentioned as a
female member "at that time." Is it possible
that that she had already fallen off the wagon
and departed?

The edited story section of the Big Book was
completed "in the latter part of January 1939"
(re "AA Comes of Age" pg 164). The mark-up of
the manuscript was likely completed in the
latter part of March (the book was published
April 4, 1939).

Florence R, states in her story "... The
drinking ended the morning I got there ..."
["there" was Bill and Lois' home for the 2nd
time]. She then later states "That was more
than a year ago." In manuscript versions,
circulating around the internet, the sentence
read "That was several years ago" which is
quite obviously wrong. The key words in her
relative dry date are "more than a year ago"
[but from when?].

So how to do the reckoning to establish female
member primacy? It seems to be a contest
between the precision inherent in the relative
values denoted by "about" or "more than."

Did Jane S' dry date of "around February" fall
on February 1st or 28th (that's almost a
month's difference) or February 14 (to split
the difference)or could late January (31st)
or early March (1st)?

Is Florence R's dry date of "more than a year
ago" relative to late January 1939 (when the
edited stories were completed) or mid to late
March 1939 when the mark-up was completed? If
it is March 1939, then Jane S may have primacy
(and that is only a "may have"). If "more than"
is relative to January or February 1939 then
Florence R has primacy or perhaps it's a tie.
The problem is does "more than" mean a day, a
week or weeks, a month, 365 days + 1, 13 or
14 months or what?

So which is earlier? I'm sticking with Florence.
Why? Florence stayed dry for over a year. Jane S
lasted for a few months. If it's mainly about
when they showed up then legendary "Lil" beats
them both. If the elapsed time before they
returned to drinking doesn't factor in, then
by that logic, Ebby T is the first male member
of AA and should be a founder.

- - - -

Message 3132 from: "mertonmm3"
<mertonmm3@yahoo.com>
(mertonmm3 at yahoo.com)
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/3132

Women in the plural because, I believe in the NY/NJ/CT area (which
functioned as one during most of the time) they began with one woman
(Florence R. of Westfield N.J.), and around the time of the release of
the book Marty M., then a patient of Blythewood Sanitarium, became
number 2.

- - - -

Message 3112 from "Sally Brown"
<rev.sally@worldnet.att.net>
(rev.sally at worldnet.att.net)

Still another was Mary Campbell, from somewhere
in the South, I believe. Dave and I don't know
her sobriety date or when she arrived in AA,
but it was before April 1939 when Marty Mann
went from Blythewood to her first AA meeting,
held at the Wilsons' home in Brooklyn. Mary
actually visited Marty at Blythewood. She
relapsed in 1944, then returned to AA and
stayed sober until she died in the 1990s.

- - - -

Message 589 from t <tcumming@airmail.net>
Email address is now <tcumming@nc.rr.com>
(tcumming at nc.rr.com)
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/589

People In AA History - Part 4

I thru M

Jane S. - 1st woman Akron area maintain few
months sobriety, married vice president large
steel company (D 122,241)

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++++Message 4823. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: First woman in AA? (Florence R
vs Jane S)
From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/25/2008 4:45:00 PM

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From message # 3132

The first woman to arrive on the scene in AA (in 1935) was the
legendary "Lil" of the "Victor and Lil" duo in Akron, OH (re "Dr Bob
and the Good Oldtimers pgs 97-98, 109, 241). "Lil" reputedly sobered
up outside AA. However, it is said she never got far enough along to
attend a meeting.

I'm not sure if the dry dates of Florence R or Jane S can be stated
with certainty or precision. Take for example Dr Bob's stated dry date
(June 10, 1935)and the starting date of the AMA convention in Atlantic
City, when he had his last binge for a few days (also June 10, 1935).

"Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers" provides Jane S' relative dry date
through old-timer Bob E. On pg 101 it states "Bob E who came into AA
in February 1937" (then on pg 122) "remembered that Jane S was making
the 35-mile trip to the meeting at T Henry's in 1937, about the same
time he started" [Jane's trip was from Cleveland to Akron]. Pg 241
later indicates that Jane was the wife of a "vice-president of a large
steel company."

The key words in her relative dry date are "about the same time"
[relative to February 1937]. I can't find a hard written reference to
confirm it, but sources I trust for credibility indicate that Jane S
stayed sober for only a few months.

"Pass It On" mentions Florence R. On pg 202 it states "The name 'One
Hundred Men' fell by the wayside because of objections of Florence R,
at that time the only female member." It's odd that Jane S' name isn't
also mentioned as a female member "at that time." Is it possible that
that she had already fell off the wagon and departed?

The edited story section of the Big Book was completed "in the latter
part of January 1939" (re "AA Comes of Age" pg 164). The mark-up of
the manuscript was likely completed in the latter part of March (the
book was published April 4, 1939).

Florence R, states in her story "... The drinking ended the morning I
got there ..." ["there" was Bill and Lois' home for the 2nd time]. She
then later states "That was more than a year ago." In manuscript
versions, circulating around the internet, the sentence read "That was
several years ago" which is quite obviously wrong. The key words in
her relative dry date are "more than a year ago" [but from when?].

So how to do the reckoning to establish female member primacy? It
seems to be a contest between the precision inherent in the relative
values denoted by "about" or "more than."

Is Jane S' dry date of "around February" fall on February 1st or 28th
(that's almost a month's difference) or February 14 (to split the
difference)or could late January (31st) or early March (1st)?

Is Florence R's dry date of "more than a year ago" relative to late
January 1939 (when the edited stories were completed) or mid to late
March 1939 when the mark-up was completed? If it is March 1939, then
Jane S may have primacy (and that is only a "may have"). If "more
than" is relative to January or February 1939 then Florence R has
primacy or perhaps it's a tie. The problem is does "more than" mean a
day, a week or weeks, a month, 365 days + 1, 13 or 14 months or what?

So which is earlier? I'm sticking with Florence. Why? Florence stayed
dry for over a year. Jane S lasted for a few months. If it's mainly
about when they showed up then legendary "Lil" beats them both. If the
elapsed time before they returned to drinking doesn't factor in, then
by that logic, Ebby T is the first male member of AA and should be a
founder.

However, it probably boils down to "truth by choice." In any event the
matter is not by any means certain.

Cheers
Arthur

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Robert Stonebraker
Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 3:24 AM
To: AA HistoryLovers; MuncieAA@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: First woman in AA?

From Arthur S. and Bob S.

Florence Rankin (New York), Jane S. (Cleveland),
Sylvia Kauffmann (Chicago), Ethel Macy (Akron)

- - - -

David L. asked: A question came up in my group.
Who was the first woman to join AA and when did
she join?

- - - -

From: "Arthur S" <ArtSheehan@msn.com>
(ArtSheehan at msn.com)

The first woman member was Florence R
(from NY). Her 1st edition Big Book story is
"A Feminine Victory." She relocated to the
Washington DC/Baltimore area.

Sadly she died drunk in the early 1940s (a
possible suicide).

Fitz M identified her in the morgue.

Arthur

- - - -

From: "Robert Stonebraker"
<rstonebraker212@insightbb.com>
(rstonebraker212 at insightbb.com)

Who was first, Jane or Florence?

Both Florence Rankin (New York) and Jane S.
(Cleveland) came to AA in 1937, but I have
not been able to discover which was first
to join AA or, of course, the Oxford Group
as it was then.

This humorous story is from Pages 122 & 123
from Dr. Bob & The Good Oldtimers:

Word of Akron's "not-drinking-liquor club" had
already spread to nearby towns, such as Kent
and Canton, and it was probably early 1937
when a few prospects started drifting down
from Cleveland. In the beginning, it was in
twos and threes. (By 1939, there were two
carloads.)

Bob E. remembered that Jane S. was making the
35-mile trip to the meeting at T. Henry's in
1937, about the same time he started. Colorful
and vivacious, with a fine sense of humor,
Jane is said to be the first woman in the
area to have attained any length of sobriety -
meaning a few months.

Oldtimers long remembered her story of being
left unattended by her husband to supervise
the wallpapering of a room. Trouble was, she
and the paperhanger started drinking. Each
time he began to hang a roll of paper, one or
the other would walk into it. When her husband
came home that evening, both Jane and the
paperhanger had passed out, surrounded by
empty bottles (as her husband told her later)
and all bound up in shredded paper and waste.

- - - -

Sylvia Kauffmann got sober in September of
1939 in Chicago and, so far as I can find,
stayed sober till she died. At any rate,
she was credited having the longest
uninterrupted sobriety of any woman in AA.

I believe that Ethel Macy, who wrote "From
Farm To City," was the first lady to join AA
at Akron (May, 1941). She remained sober till
she died (April 1963).

Bob S.

Yahoo! Groups Links

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++++Message 4824. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: First woman in AA? Sylvia K.
From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/25/2008 7:04:00 PM

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Point of information - As far as I know,
Sylvia K. got sober in Cleveland and Clarence
was her sponsor. Her name appears on a meeting
roster from the original Golrick group along
with Dr. Bob, Warren C. and others.

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++++Message 4825. . . . . . . . . . . . Spiritus contra spiritum in Eastern
Orthodox Christianity
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/26/2008 6:46:00 PM

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The Akathist Hymn and the story of the Icon
of the Inexhaustible Cup

Translated by Sister Dorofea (Mirochnitchenko)
and Katherine Szalasznyj

From the Eastern Orthodox Christian tradition

http://www.antiochian.org/1103412970

- - - -

From Glenn C., a brief comment:

You can see a photo of the icon which is
described (it is the second one down) at:

http://rusmonastery.org/eng/chasha.html

This is an Eastern Orthodox Christian tradition
which sees in the Holy Mother the revelation
of the feminine aspect of God. She is the
Theotokos, the one through whom God comes to
birth in our souls. She is the Gate of Heaven,
the Bridge to Heaven, and so on, and in this
case, she is the one who extends to us the
sacred chalice from which we can drink the
true healing Spirit, instead of seeking to
drown ourselves in the false spirit of alcohol.

It is very much the same idea that Carl Jung
tried to explain to Rowland Hazard: spiritus
contra spiritum.

Now let us give the traditional story, as it
appears on that web site:

- - - -

A peasant from the Efremovskii district of
Tula province, a retired soldier, was an
alcoholic, and a drunkard. He would drink
away all his pension, everything that he
possessed, anything that could be found in
his house, and eventually he was ruined and
literally became a beggar. From excessive
drinking, his legs became paralysed, but still
he continued drinking.

One day, the man, who seemed to have hit
rock-bottom, had an unusual dream. In it a
venerable old man came to him and said:

"Go to the city of Serpoukhov, to the
monastery of the Theotokos. There you will
find an icon of the Holy Mother called
The Inexhaustible Cup. Have a moleben
[a formal religious service of intercession
or supplication] before it, and you will be
healed, both spiritually and physically."

Without a penny to his name, and having no
use of his legs, the man did not dare to go
on a journey. But the holy man came to him
a second and then a third time, and was so
adamant in his admonition to obey his
instructions, that the poor drunk did not
dare to disobey any more, and he set off as
quickly as he could, dragging himself on all
fours.

In one of the neighbouring villages where he
stopped to rest, an old woman took him in for
the night. To ease his pain, she massaged his
legs, and put him to rest on top of the clay
oven, a customary place for the old or sickly,
because of the warmth. During the night the
travelling man felt a pleasant sensation in
his legs, and discovered that he was able to
stand. On the following nights his legs
became even stronger. And so, first with two
walking-sticks, and then with just one, he
arrived in Serpoukhov.

Once in the monastery, he told about his
visions, and asked to have the moleben served.
But nobody there had ever heard of such an
icon. They started to search for it, and
noticed one that was hanging in the passage
to the sacristy, that bore an image of a
chalice. On the back of it, to their surprise,
was written "The Inexhaustible Cup".

In the icon of St Varlaam, the disciple of
the holy bishop Metropolitan Aleksii, the
man immediately recognised the face of the
holy elder who had appeared to him in his
dreams.

From Serpoukhov the man departed, completely
healed. The news about the miraculous icon
spread quickly through the city, the region,
and all of Rus. Alcoholics (those bound by
the passion of drink) and their families and
friends, were coming to pray before the Mother
of God for healing, and in time many came back
to thank the all-merciful Theotokos for her
speedy help.

Let it be known that this akathist service came
to us in Canada in 1994, and we perceive that
this is God's will and from the compassion of
the Theotokos. In these times there is the
renewal of the Church's life in the lands of
Rus, and the rediscovery of God's mercy and
tender care. This akathist has been redis-
covered and is now frequently served, although
the current service of which we have a photo-
copy was printed in only 4,000 copies. We
pray that by offering these translations many
souls in North America may be healed and saved.

+ + +

KONTAK 1

A wonderful and marvellous healing has been
given to us by your holy icon, O sovereign
Lady Theotokos. By its appearance we have
been delivered from spiritual and physical
ills, and from sorrowful circumstances. So we
bring you our thankful praise, O all-merciful
Protectress. O sovereign Lady, whom we call
"The Inexhaustible Cup": bend down your ear
and mercifully hear our lamentation and tears
that we bring to you, and give your healing to
those who suffer from drunkenness, so that we
may cry out to you with faith: "REJOICE, O
INEXHAUSTIBLE CUP THAT QUENCHES OUR SPIRITUAL
THIRST!"

IKOS 1

Angelic powers and multitudes of saints con-
tinually glorify you, the Theotokos, Queen
of all, the intercessor for us sinful
Christians wallowing in lawlessness and
remaining in sins. It is for our consolation
and salvation that you in your mercy gave us
your miraculous icon, so that looking upon it,
as at the one and only star among a multitude
of stars on a starlit night, we may prostrate
ourselves, shouting from the very depths of
our heart:

REJOICE, dwelling-place of the unapproachable
God.
REJOICE, our constant wonder.
REJOICE, you make our sorrow wipe away our
sins.
REJOICE, you make our grief heal our ills.
REJOICE, through your miraculous icon, you
bring us your heavenly mercy.
REJOICE, O joy of our grieving heart.
REJOICE, our wonderful reconciliation with God.
REJOICE, O Theotokos, the Inexhaustible Cup
that quenches our spiritual thirst!

Etc., etc.

Sent to me by "John Blair"
<jblair@wmis.net> (jblair at wmis.net)

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++++Message 4826. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: First woman in AA? Sylvia K.
From: brian thompson . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/26/2008 6:52:00 PM

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--- "Mitchell K." <mitchell_k_archivist@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> Point of information - As far as I know,
> Sylvia K. got sober in Cleveland and Clarence
> was her sponsor. Her name appears on a meeting
> roster from the original Golrick group along
> with Dr. Bob, Warren C. and others.

Sylvia K. relapsed when she returned to Chicago.
Her new sobriety date was September 1939 date
of the first AA meeting there. I had contacted
her son a few years ago and she died I believe
in 1969 with 30 yrs of sobriety. She was the
first woman to acheve long term sobriety in
AA.

BRIAN T.

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++++Message 4827. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: First woman in AA? Sylvia K.
From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/26/2008 11:02:00 AM

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At 18:04 1/25/2008 , Mitchell K. wrote:

>Point of information - As far as I know,
>Sylvia K. got sober in Cleveland and Clarence
>was her sponsor. Her name appears on a meeting
>roster from the original Golrick group along
>with Dr. Bob, Warren C. and others.

Her name also appears, with an Evanston,
Illinois address, on the First 226 Members
in Akron list.

I notice on this list, which is available at

http://hindsfoot.org/akrn226b.html

and

http://hindsfoot.org/akrn226.doc

and has an X by her name indicating an early
member. There are thirty-two so indicated,
including the two founders, Earl Treat, J. D.
Holmes, Archie Trowbridge, and Bill Dotson.

There are two women included besides Sylvia;
Roberta Beckwith from Akron and Ruth Tracy
from Maumee, which is near Toledo.

There is no Warren C. on the list, FWIW.

I wonder how these two women factor in
early A.A.?

Tommy

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++++Message 4828. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: First women in AA?
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/27/2008 5:49:00 PM

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From "Sally Brown" <rev.sally@att.net>
(rev.sally at att.net)

Don't know how far anyone on AAHistoryLovers
wants to take this fine-tooth combing of which
women got sober when and for how long.

However, I haven't seen a reference in the
posts yet to the book "Women Pioneers in 12
Step Recovery," by Charlotte Hunter, Billye
Jones, Joan Zieger (Hazelden, 1999).

This book has sections on Anne Smith,
Henrietta Seiberling, Sister Ignatia, Lois
Wilson, Ruth Hock, Nell Wing, Sybil C., Ester
Elasardi, Eve M., Geraldine Owen D., Nancy
O'D., Marcelene W., Arbutus O'N., Barbara D.,
Dorothy Riggs M., Dr. Joan K. Jackson, Betty
Ford, Mary Jane Hanley, and Marty Mann. There
is also a note referring to other names that
need to be added to a list of this sort: Sylvia
K., Ethyl M., and Geneva V.

Also, Dave and I mention three other women on
p. 127 of the Marty Mann bio - Bobby Burger
(the long-time secy at AA's GSO), Ila Phillips
(a professional dancer in New York), and
Priscilla Peck (the art director of Vogue
Magazine).

And what about Wynn Corum Laws (joined AA in
California in 1947 at the age of 33), whose
story in the Big Book was "Freedom From
Bondage"?

I wouldn't be surprised if there are a number
of additional early AA women who found recovery
in AA in the early-mid 1940s, but are or were
known just to their own communities and
families.

Sometimes I think we may verge on idol (even
"idle"!) worship of sobriety dates. We all
know we're only a drink or a drug away from
disaster. It's only today that matters. I
remember, though, that it's different in
the earlier years of sobriety. "She has
two years? Oh, my God - How can that happen!"
So let me get off my soapbox. Working on a
dual dx unit where there's lots of complicated
relapse sure helps me keep my perspective
- and especially my gratitude.

Thank you again and again and again, all
you loyal, committed AA History Lovers, for
your hard work and careful vetting.

Shalom - Sally

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++++Message 4829. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: First woman in AA? Sylvia K.
From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/26/2008 9:11:00 PM

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I've got September 13, 1939 for Sylvia K's
dry date. Wasn't Earl T her sponsor?

Extracts from Nancy O's brief biographies of
story authors state:

For Earl T:

When he slipped he realized that the alcoholic
has to continue to take his own inventory
every day if he expects to get well and stay
well. Soon Dan Craske, MD began referring
prospects to him, and another doctor in
Evanston referred a woman. This was Sylvia K
("The Keys to the Kingdom"). Earl suggested
she go to Akron. There they dried her out and
explained the program to her, after which it
was suggested that she return to Chicago to
work with Earl.

For Sylvia K:

In the 1939 this doctor heard of the book
Alcoholics Anonymous ... he told her of the
handful of people in Akron and New York who
seemed to have worked out a technique for
arresting their alcoholism. He asked her to
read the book and to talk with a man who
experiencing success by using this plan.
This was Earl T ("He Sold Himself Short"),
the "Mr. T" to whom she refers on page 309
(pg 268 in 4th ed) ... Earl suggested she
visit Akron. According to Bill W, she got
off to a slow start there ... Sylvia stayed
two weeks with Clarence S, "The Home
Brewmeister" in Cleveland. She met Dr. Bob,
who brought other AA men to meet her.
Dorothy S (Clarence's wife) said that the
men "were only too willing to talk to her
after they saw her." Sylvia was a glamorous
divorcee, extremely good looking, and rich ....

Cheers
Arthur

-----Original Message-----

> Point of information - As far as I know,
> Sylvia K. got sober in Cleveland and Clarence
> was her sponsor. Her name appears on a meeting
> roster from the original Golrick group along
> with Dr. Bob, Warren C. and others.

Sylvia K. relapsed when she returned to Chicago.
Her new sobriety date was September 1939 date
of the first AA meeting there. I had contacted
her son a few years ago and she died I believe
in 1969 with 30 yrs of sobriety. She was the
first woman to acheve long term sobriety in
AA.

BRIAN T.

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++++Message 4830. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: the phrase AA textbook
From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/25/2008 4:19:00 PM

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From Baileygc23, Jon Markle, and Jenny Andrews

- - - -

FROM: Baileygc23@aol.com
(Baileygc23 at aol.com)

The big book says, this book is meant to be
suggestive, only. Page 164.

- - - -

FROM: Jon Markle <serenitylodge@bellsouth.net>
(serenitylodge at bellsouth.net)

While it is true that the front of the
jacket cover contains that statement, the
inside flap, apparently continues to defer
to the more definitive language thus: "The
basic text, pages I - 164, . . . "

Also, if the jacket cover is removed, which
many people do, do we find that statement
repeated elsewhere in the book? If not, then
how important could this assumption be?

So, perhaps it is simply a matter of
extrapolating what exact meaning these two
instances hold for us. If any.

I like the inclusion of Bill Wilson's statement
on the inside flap. However that cannot be
brought forward to today's Book, because the
stories are not the same. His observations can
only be applied to the book at the time of his
writing that letter. We can only assume that
idea might also apply to the current edition.

Of course . . . I don't look at the book as
a sacred work, so it doesn't make so much
difference to me. Except as it's an inter-
esting observation.

All good text books are revised from time to
time. Good information and instruction never
remains stagnant.

Hugs for the trudge.

Jon (Raleigh)
9/9/82

- - - -

From: jenny andrews <jennylaurie1@hotmail.com>
(jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com)

"I would imagine Bill is intending to instruct
the Fellowship..." I doubt it. Bill was always
careful not to instruct ("Our book is meant
to be suggestive only.") The various AA texts
can be compared to a signpost, which gives
neutral directions - not instructions. When
Winston Churchill was Prime Minister he asked
his Education Secretary Rab Butler what could
be done to make children more patriotic. "Tell
them Wolfe won Quebec," he mused. Butler
replied, "I would like to influence what was
taught in schools but this was always frowned
on." "Of course," Churchill rejoined, "not
by instruction or order but by suggestion."

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++++Message 4831. . . . . . . . . . . . Sybil C. & Tex
From: Danny Graham . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/28/2008 12:52:00 PM


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I am doing some research on Sybil C. from
Los Angeles and her brother Tex. Does anyone
have a copy of the letter Sybil wrote to
Bill W. following Tex's death in 1958? I have
a copy of Bill's response, but am looking for
the first letter.

- - - -

http://www.barefootsworld.net/aasybilc.html

Sybil C.
The First Woman in A.A. West of the Mississippi
by Nancy O.

Sybil C. was the first woman to enter A.A.
west of the Mississippi. Her date of sobriety
was March 23, 1941. Her name at the time was
Sybil Maxwell, though she later opened her
talks by saying, "My name is Sybil Doris Adams
Stratton Hart Maxwell Willis C., and I'm an
alcoholic."

She was born Sybil Doris Adams on May 20, 1908,
in the small oil town of Simians, Texas. Her
parents were poor but hardworking and she had
a brother Herman, ten years her senior. Herman
was called "Tex." Sybil adored her big brother.
She remembered that when she was five and he
fifteen, he would hold her and rock her to
sleep.

Tex joined the Army during World War I, was
reported missing in action, and when the family
heard nothing further they assumed he was dead.
However, when Sybil was thirteen they learned
that he was alive and living in Los Angeles.
The family immediately moved to California.

Sybil felt like a misfit in Los Angeles. She
affected the flapper makeup popular at the
time: heavy white powder on her face, and two
big red spots of rouge on her cheeks and lots
of lipstick and black eyebrows.

"I must have looked like a circus freak or
something like that," she wailed. "I was in
eighth grade out there in Los Angeles, and
the other kids laughed at me. I had trouble
making friends, being shy and timid by nature,
but also my papa wouldn't let boys even walk
home with me, let alone go to parties. I just
wasn't allowed to do anything, and I knew I
didn't belong anywhere."

"So naturally I started drinking at a very
early age, against my better judgment, full
of shame and remorse because of Papa's
teachings. He was a good man. When I was
fifteen, I got drunk one night, passed out,
and had to be carried home and put to bed in
my mother's bed. I cried the next day and
promised that it would never happen again --
and I meant it. But I didn't know myself, I
didn't know the disease of alcoholism. The
next Saturday night the kids handed me a
bottle and I drank it. And I continued to do
that through a couple of semesters of high
school, and I stayed drunk through seventeen
years of failed marriages and more jobs than
I can count."

Sybil dropped out of high school and took a
secretarial course and was hired as a secretary.
It was the first in a long list of jobs. At
various times she was a real estate broker,
a taxi driver, a bootlegger, an itinerant farm
worker, the editor of a magazine for pet
owners, and a salesperson. 'I didn't mind
working," she said, "but I never seemed to
get anywhere. I was just on a treadmill because
of booze."

She had a child by her first husband, a sailor.
She thought having the child would prevent
her drinking, but she drank more than ever, and
her parents eventually took the child from
her.

She and her husband hitchhiked out of town to
find grape picking jobs. They thought getting
away from their city friends would help them
quit drinking, but she soon was drunk again.
During one of her drunks she heard music. At
first she thought she was hallucinating, but
she followed the sound and wandered into a
tent where a revival meeting was in progress.
The preacher asked for anyone to come forward
who wanted to be saved.

"Well, that was me," Sybil told A.A. members.
"I went all the way down while the people were
singing. The preacher put his hand out and
placed it on my head, and I threw up all over
him. It was so terrible! I was so ashamed, I
couldn't bring myself to tell anyone about
it until I got into Alcoholics Anonymous eleven
years later."

She left her sailor husband and hitchhiked back
to Los Angeles to her mother's house. Her
brother, Tex, now had a speakeasy on skid row,
and to make money to take to her mother to
support the child, she went into the boot-
legging business with him. Eventually the
speakeasy was raided and they were out of
business. Then she went to work in a taxi-dance
hall.

Little is known of her second husband, but she
met her third husband, Dick Maxwell, while
working in the taxi-dance hall. One night a
rich, handsome stranger walked in and bought
dance tickets with Sybil for the whole night.
During intermission he bought several pitchers
of beer (the girls got a dollar for every
pitcher their partner bought), and she told
him her sad story. He offered to marry her and
adopt her child if she would promise not to
drink any more.

Now she had a wonderful husband, a home, a
housekeeper, and a car. But she couldn't
stop drinking.

In 1939, while visiting her mother, she read
the Liberty magazine article called "Alcoholics
and God." She thought the story fascinating
but did nothing about it and her downward
spiral continued.

Eighteen months later God gave her another
chance, when she read the Saturday Evening
Post's March 1, 1941 issue which contained the
famous Jack Alexander article about A.A.. She
wrote to New York and received a reply from
Ruth Hock, then Bill Wilson's secretary, who
told her that there were no women members in
California, but that Marty Mann was sober in
New York. Ruth referred her to the small group
of men then in the area.

On Friday, March 23, Sybil's nonalcoholic
husband, Dick Maxwell, drove her to the
meeting. They found ten or twelve men seated
around a table and three or four women seated
against the wall. When the chairman began the
meeting he announced "As is our custom before
the regular meeting starts, we have to ask the
women to leave." Sybil left with the other
women but her husband stayed and the members
assumed he was the alcoholic. When he rejoined
Sybil he said "They don't know you're alive.
They just went on and on bragging about their
drinking until I was about to walk out, when
they jumped up and said the Lord's Prayer,
and here I am." Sybil headed for the nearest
bar and got drunk.

But she remembered that Ruth Hock had written,
"If you need help, call Cliff W." and had
given her his phone number. He explained:
"You didn't tell us you were an alcoholic. We
thought you were one of the wives. If you
had identified yourself as an alcoholic,
you would have been welcome as the flowers
in May."

When she returned the following week, Frank R.
brought in a large carton full of letters
bundled into bunches of twenty to fifty. He
explained that they were all inquiries and
calls for help from people in southern Cali-
fornia. "Here they are! Here they are! If any
of you jokers have been sober over fifteen
minutes, come on up here and get these
letters. We've got to get as many of these
drunks as we can in here by next Friday, or
they may die."

The last bundle was of letters from women.
Frank said: "Sybil Maxwell, come on up. I am
going to put you in charge of all the women."

Sybil liked the idea of "being in charge" but
replied, "I can't, sir. You said I have to
make all those calls by next Friday, or
somebody might die. Well, I'll be drunk by
next Friday unless you have some magic that
will change everything so I can stay sober."

Frank explained that everything she needed to
know was in the Big Book. "And it says right
in here that when all other measures fail,
working with another alcoholic will save the
day. That's what you will be doing, Sybil,
working with other alcoholics. You just get
in your car and take your mind off yourself.
Think about someone sicker than you are. Go
see her and hand her the letter she wrote,
and say: 'I wrote one like this last week,
and they answered mine and told me to come
and see you. If you have a drinking problem
like I have, and if you want to get sober as
bad as I do, you come with me and we'll find
out together how to do it.' Don't add another
word to that, because you don't know anything
yet. Just go get 'em."

It worked, and she never had another drink.

When Bill and Lois Wilson made their first
visit to Los Angeles in 1943, Sybil was one
of the delegation of local A.A.'s who met
them at the Town House hotel. Later she met
Marty Mann.

But Dick Maxwell began to feel abandoned and
lonely. He urged her to cut down on her A.A.
activities so that they could have more of a
home life. He had grown to hate A.A. and
refused to read the Big Book or discuss the
Twelve Steps. Finally he suggested that the
solution to their marriage problems was for
her to go back to drinking and he would take
care of her.

Sybil quickly packed a bag and left. She left
her lovely home and rented a housekeeping room
with a gas hotplate and a bath down the hall
for nine dollars a week and went to work for
the L.A. Times to support herself. "A.A. just
had to come first with me," she explained.

Her brother, Tex, joined the week after she
did. He started the second A.A. group in the
area, and appointed Sybil coffeemaker and
greeter for the new group, and finally made
her deliver her first shaky talk.

When Tex died in 1952, Sybil was devastated.
She wrote Bill Wilson, pouring out her grief
and asked, "What am I going to do, Bill?
I don't crave a drink, but I think I'm going
to die unless I get some answers." She said
Bill's answer saved her life. He wrote:
____________________

November 6, 1952

My dear Sybil,

Thanks for your letter of October 21st - it
was just about the most stirring thing I have
read in many a day. The real test of our way
of life is how it works when the chips are
down. Though I've sometimes seen A.A.s make
rather a mess of living, I've never seen a
sober one make a bad job of dying.

But the account you give me of Tex's last days
is something I shall treasure always. I hope
I can do half as well when my time comes. I am
one who believes that in my Father's house
are many mansions. If that were not so there
couldn't be any justice. I can almost see Tex
sitting on the front porch of one, right now,
talking in the sunlight with others of God's
ladies and gentlemen who have gone on before.
I certainly agree with you that little was
left in Tex's grave. All he had was left
behind in the hearts of the rest of us and
he carried just that same amount forward to
where he is now. If you like what I've said,
please read it to the Huntington Park Group.
In any case, congratulate them for me that
they had the privilege of knowing a guy like
Tex.

As for you, my dear, there is no need to give
you advice. How well you understand that the
demonstration is the thing, after all. It
isn't so much a question of whether we have
a good time or a bad time. The only thing that
will be asked is what we do with the
experience we have. That you are doing well
with our tough lot is something for which I
and many others are bound to be grateful. This
is but a long day in school. Some of the
lessons are hard and others are easy. I know
you will keep on learning and passing what
you learned. What more does one person need
to know about another!

Affectionately yours,
/s/ Bill
WGW/nw

Sybil Willis
2874A Randolph
Huntington Park, California
____________________

The letter touched Sybil so deeply she gave
many copies to people who were at a low point
in life, and a few years ago someone I met at
an on-line meeting sent a copy to me.

At the time of the letter, she was married
to Jim Willis, the founder of Gamblers'
Anonymous.

Sybil is perhaps best remembered as the first
executive secretary of the Los Angeles Central
office of A.A., a position she held for twelve
years. This was a turbulent time for A.A., with
much disunity and controversy within the groups
that led to the Twelve Traditions. Sybil
remembered that the groups regarded them
either with opposition or indifference and
the Central Office couldn't sell many copies
of the Traditions pamphlet.

Understandably, since Sybil began doing Twelfth
Step work immediately, she took a dim view of
the rigidity that crept into the requirements.
Some areas required six months or even a year
of sobriety before one was allowed to call on
new prospects. She advised "If you don't get
prospects from the Central Office, look around
the meeting rooms. There is always the forgotten
man or woman, nervous and scared, who would
love to have you come up and shake hands. Just
feel what the new person is feeling. It kept
me sober, it kept my brother Tex sober, and
it will keep you sober when all other measures
fail."

Her fifth and enduring marriage was to another
A.A. member, Bob C. He has been described a
"a high-spirited, warm, and loving man,
fourteen years her junior in age and twenty-two
years her junior in sobriety."

"Bob and I are very happy," Sybil declared.
"This has been the best years of my life."
They were both enthusiastic meeting-goers and
enjoyed an incredibly wide circle of A.A.
friends.

Sybil was honored at the International A.A.
Convention in Montreal in 1985. She was then
the longest-sober living woman in A.A. When
she was introduced to the 50,000 attendees
from fifty-three countries, she told the
colorful story of A.A.'s beginning in Los
Angeles, in which she had played such a vital
role. When she finished her talk, the audience
rose to its feet as one and gave her a standing
ovation which continued so long that some
thought it would never stop.

Sybil died in 1988.

[From Harry V., Los Angeles Archivist, Sybil
died in late April 1988, and the A.A.
Memorial Service for Sybil was held June 5th,
1988. Her Memorial service kept getting
postponed due to A.A. conference dates already
on the schedule. It was a two hour plus long
A.A. Memorial.]

Sources:

"Women Pioneers in 12 Step Recovery," by
Charlotte Hunter, Billye Jones, Joan Zieger.
"Gratefull to Have Been There," by Nell Wing.

Various tapes of Sybil's talks.

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++++Message 4832. . . . . . . . . . . . WorldCat.org, a research aid...
From: Charlie C . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/29/2008 9:34:00 PM

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Hi, I'm a reference librarian, and it
occured to me that maybe some of you AA
History researchers might find

http://WorldCat.org

of interest. This is the public, free
version of a longstanding library resource,
also called WorldCat. Basically WorldCat is a
massive (really massive, as in millions of
items) collection of library catalog records
from libraries across the U.S. and some other
locations.

So what does that do for you? Let's say
you want to read more about someone like Emmet
Fox, or a movement like the Oxford groups. You
look in your local library system catalog and
maybe don't find much. What to do? Is that all
there is?

Maybe, but maybe not. Try WorldCat.org.
It will give you an idea of what is really "out
there" in libraries. It will also, once you
have a list of results, help you to see which
libraries in your region have the item.

Please note that not all libraries are
open to one and all to come check books out.
It is best to contact a library first before
you go there. WorldCat helpfully provides
contact info and web site links to its member
libraries, which is pretty much everyone.

Or, you can ask your local library to get
the book for you through "inter-library loan."
This handy system enables a library in one
place to search for and have sent to it books
from other libraries in the, yes, the WorldCat
system.

Not all items you may see in WorldCat will
necessarily be available - some may be rare and
the holding library won't send it, or out of
state and your local library won't get items
from out of state.... Local policies vary, and
some public libraries need to charge at least
a token fee to recoup some of their costs,
although it usually is a mere token, and some
libraries do not charge at all.

Have fun and do support your local library!

Charlie C.
IM, Yahoo = route20guy

"So settle down and quit your traveling ways.,
'cause the boogerman's gonna get you one of these days...".
(Kitty Wells, Make Up Your Mind)

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++++Message 4833. . . . . . . . . . . . Who can change the text of the BB
and how?
From: CloydG . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/28/2008 1:24:00 PM

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I've heard that GSO provides a board of
alcoholic and non alcoholic trustees that
are entrusted to preserve the original text
"forever" as it was originally written.
Is that true? If not, what would it take to
change it? I'm not interested in a debate,
only historical guidelines that the founders
provided for the fellowship.

Clyde G.
01/03/95

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++++Message 4834. . . . . . . . . . . . Significant February Dates in A.A.
History
From: chesbayman56 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/31/2008 3:26:00 PM

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Feb 1908 - Bill made boomerang.
Feb 1916 - hazing incident Norwich University, Bill & sophomore class
suspended
Feb 1938 - Rockefeller gives $5,000 to AA. - Saves AA from
professionalization.
Feb 1939 - Dr Harry Tiebout, 1st Psychiatrist to endorse AA and use
in his practice.
Feb 1939 - Dr Howard of Montclair, NJ suggests swapping "you musts"
for "we ought" in the Big Book.
Feb 1940 - 1st AA clubhouse opens at 334-1/2 West 24th Street, NYC.
Feb 1951 - Fortune magazine article about AA. New York reprints in
pamphlet form for many years.
Feb 1963 - Harpers carries article critical of AA.
Feb 1981 - 1st issue of "Markings" AA Archives Newsletter is
published.
Feb 1 or 2, 1942 - Ruth Hock, AA's 1st paid secretary, resigns to get
married.
Feb 8, 1940 - Rockefeller dinner.
Feb 8, 1940 - Houston Press ran first of 6 anonymous articles on AA
by Larry J.
Feb 9, 2002 - Sue Smith Windows, Dr Bob's daughter died.
Feb 11, 1937 - First New Jersey meeting was held at the home of Hank
P ("The Unbeliever" in the first edition). Some sources report this
as happening Feb 13, 1937
Feb 11, 1938 - Clarence S. ("Home Brewmeister" 1st-3rd edition)
sobriety date.
Feb 14, 1971 - AA groups worldwide hold memorial service for Bill W.
Feb 14, 2000 - William Y., "California Bill" dies in Winston Salem,
NC.
Feb 15, 1918 - Sue Smith Windows, Dr. Bob's adopted daughter, was
born.
Feb 15, 1941 - Baltimore Sunday Sun reported that the city's first AA
group, begun in June 1940, had grown from 3 to 40 members.
Feb 17, - Jim B contacted Charlie B, whom he had met once, some two
years before, at a New York AA meeting.
Feb 18, 1943 - During gas rationing in WWII, AA's are granted the
right to use cars for 12th step work in emergency cases.
Feb 19, 1967 - Father "John Doe" (Ralph P), 1st Catholic Priest in AA
dies.
Feb 20, 1941 - The Toledo Blade published first of three articles on
AA by Seymour Rothman.
Feb 23, 1959 - AA granted "Recording for the Blind" permission to
tape the Big Book.
Feb 28, 1940 - First organization meeting of Philadelphia AA was held
at McCready Huston's room at 2209 Delancy Street.

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++++Message 4835. . . . . . . . . . . . March of Times 1946 news clips about
AA
From: momaria33772 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/31/2008 11:21:00 AM

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I just received these today. I found them
delightful, the March of Time played at ALL
the American movie theaters.

This is an example of the great Public Informa-
tion that took place in the '40s.

(You may have to cut and
paste into your browser.)

These are Five AA archival newscasts from Time.

For a delightful glimpse into AA's past,
please follow the links below.

http://www.hboarchives.com/apps/searchlibrary/ctl/gotoclipdetails?key=TQ4931
2111\

_015&flash=6 [2]

http://www.hboarchives.com/apps/searchlibrary/ctl/gotoclipdetails?key=TQ4931
2111\

_025&flash=6 [3]

http://www.hboarchives.com/apps/searchlibrary/ctl/gotoclipdetails?key=TQ4931
2111\

_016&flash=6 [4]

http://www.hboarchives.com/apps/searchlibrary/ctl/gotoclipdetails?key=TQ4931
2111\

_017&flash=6 [5]

http://www.hboarchives.com/apps/searchlibrary/ctl/gotoclipdetails?key=TQ4931
2111\

_026&flash=6 [6]

- - - -

From the moderator:

The last one (number five) has a nice
section showing a young Marty Mann
speaking to an audience. She was able to
communicate effectively with any kind of
audience whatsoever, and get them on her
side.

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

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++++Message 4836. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Who can change the text of the
BB and how?
From: Jim Hoffman . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/30/2008 4:27:00 PM

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The annual Conference has passed Advisory
Actions meant to protect the Doctor’s Opinion,
the first 164 pages and Dr. Bob’s story from
change without the written consent of three
quarters of all registered groups.

Advisory Actions have also extended this
protection to the Twelve Traditions and the
Twelve Concepts.

This means that more than 2/3 of the
Delegates at the Conference approved those
Advisory Actions.

As the Conference Charter states Advisory
Actions have no force of law. In other words,
the Trustees have every legal right to ignore
those directives. However, we have a history
of honoring the substantially unanimous
conscience of the fellowship as expressed
by the Delegates through the Conference.

As a result the Trustees have never acted
in opposition to any Advisory Action. In
fact, they will honor actions approved by
a strong majority that does not quite reach
the 2/3 level.

- - - -

That does not mean the Big Book has not changed
over the years. There is an original manuscript
that you will frequently see at Conferences,
Dinners and Conventions. Many times you will
hear its version of “How It Works” at such an
event because it is different from the version
that was eventually published. That manuscript
was changed by revue of the fellowship that
resulted in rewrite by Bill.

- - - -

There are also changes over the years to the
originally published version. Dr. Silkworth’s
name did not appear with his letter in early
printings. The Doctor’s Opinion used to be on
Page 1 and now it is a roman numeral section
and Bill’s Story is on Page 1.

Numeric references were also changed in
various printings. The one that struck me
first when I was newly reading the book was
the reference to “Here are thousands of men
and women” in the chapter, We Agnostics. I
wondered how that could be when there were
only a hundred when the book was written.
The answer was that these kinds of references
were updated over the several printings.
However, the basic ideas and word of the
basic text have not been changed.

- - - -

To see how strong the feeling against change
is we only have to look at the Fourth Edition.
When the first printing came out, there were
some editorial changes made to DR. Bob’s story.
These were strictly grammar and punctuation
changes but they elicited tremendous reaction
within the fellowship. An item was submitted
and accepted for the following year’s Confer-
ence Agenda. One basis of the item is that
the story had been changed without the written
approval of three fourths of the registered
groups. At the Conference, the Delegates voted
to reverse the changes.

- - - -

So, the way you would change any of these
items, you would have to submit the change to
be considered as an Agenda item for the
following Conference. It would have to be
accepted and added to the Conference. An
individual could submit it but it might have
a better chance of acceptance if it went
through your Delegate Area and the Area and
Delegate submitted letters of support. If it
made the Agenda, the Delegates would then have
to approve sending it to the registered groups
seeking their approval. If three fourths
approved then the change would be made.

- - - -

If there are other ways to get it to the groups
for approval, I’m not aware of them. Perhaps
some past Delegates or Trustees can weigh in.
In either case, you would still need the group
approval. So as you can see there is a way
but the practicality of it happening is
“remote” at best. I would say it is probably
“nil”.

Jim Hoffman

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++++Message 4837. . . . . . . . . . . . Original AA Members
From: flat412acrehouse . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/29/2008 10:11:00 PM

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I read message #4543 referring to the first
100 AA members, and also looked at the list
of the first 226 Akron members at

http://hindsfoot.org/akrn226b.html

I and my group wished to know if any of
these AA members (on either list) are still
alive today.

Thanking you kindly
gentle blessings
leah

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++++Message 4838. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: March of Times 1946 news clips
about AA
From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/31/2008 8:39:00 PM

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At 10:21 1/31/2008 , you wrote:

> >From the moderator:
>
>The last one (number five) has a nice
>section showing a young Marty Mann
>speaking to an audience. She was able to
>communicate effectively with any kind of
>audience whatsoever, and get them on her
>side.
>
>Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

My wife Jean and I watched these. She is a
nurse who practiced in the Metropolitan
New York City area as well as Long Island
for over 35 years.

She recognized the Freeport Hospital in
the last clip and says that was where
Dr. Thibault had a lot of his patients.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

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++++Message 4839. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Who can change the text of the
BB and how?
From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/31/2008 9:37:00 PM

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Hi Jim

Your statement is not correct. You also
seem to be getting context a bit scrambled
regarding the relationship between the Board
and Conference.

A 1976 Conference advisory action expanded the
provisions of Article 3 of the Conference
Charter. It specified that any change to the
Steps, Traditions or Six Warranties of Article
12 of the Conference Charter, would require
written approval of 75% of the registered
AA Groups known to General Service Offices
around the world. This Conference advisory
action effectively makes any proposed change
to the Steps, Traditions and Warranties a
virtual impossibility (even so much as adding
or removing a comma). The 12 Concepts are not
included in this (other than for Concept 12
which is also Article 12 of the Conference
Charter - aka the six "Warrantees").

The basic text of the Big Book is pretty much
"protected" from change by the prevailing
sentiment of the members of the AA Fellowship
as a whole. Changes to the Big Book can be
accomplished by Conference advisory action.
However, I doubt that they would get very far
in reality. Several Conference advisory actions
related to the development of the 4th edition
Big Book specified that no changes were to be
made to the forewords, basic text, appendices
and "Dr. Bob's Nightmare." They were to "remain
as is." This pretty much represents the ongoing
sentiment of the AA membership that emerged
with 2nd edition Big Book (1955).

In the 4th edition, punctuation changes were
made to "Dr. Bob's Nightmare." It subsequently
was interpreted that the Trustee's Literature
Committee was non-responsive to several
Conference's advisory actions that the story
"remain as is." My own take on it is that it
was likely an honest mistake because there were
so many Conference advisory actions passed on
the matter.

In two of the advisory actions, the Conference
authorized the literature committee to make
punctuation changes if they were done to
correct errors. It could very easily be
interpreted to include all the "remain as is"
sections. On the other hand, it can very
easily be interpreted that "remain as is"
means "remain as is."

The 2003 Conference allowed the changes to
stand. The 2004 Conference passed an advisory
action to restore the original punctuation.

The Service Manual and Twelve Concepts for
World Service provide the guidelines for the
context of the relationship between the Board
and the Conference.

Article 4 of the Current Conference Charter
reads:

4. Conference Relation to the General Service
Board and its Corporate Services: The Conf-
erence will replace the founders of Alcoholics
Anonymous, who formerly functioned as guides
and advisers to the General Service Board
and its related service corporations. The
Conference will be expected to afford a
reliable cross section of A.A. opinion for
this purpose.

A quorum shall consist of two-thirds of all
the Conference members registered.


It will be understood, as a matter of tradi-
tion, that a two-thirds vote of Conference
members voting shall be considered binding
upon the General Service Board and its related
corporate services, provided the total vote
constitutes at least a Conference quorum. But
no such vote ought to impair the legal rights
of the General Service Board and the service
corporations to conduct routine business and
make ordinary contracts relating thereto.

It will be further understood, regardless of
the legal prerogatives of the General Service
Board, as a matter of tradition, that a
three-quarters vote of all Conference members
may bring about a reorganization of the
General Service Board and the directors and
staff members of its corporate services, if or
when such reorganization is deemed essential.

Under such a proceeding, the Conference may
request resignations, may nominate new
trustees, and may make all other necessary
arrangements regardless of the legal preroga-
tives of the General Service Board.

Cheers
Arthur

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jim Hoffman
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 3:27 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: Who can change the text of the BB and how?

The annual Conference has passed Advisory
Actions meant to protect the Doctor's Opinion,
the first 164 pages and Dr. Bob's story from
change without the written consent of three
quarters of all registered groups.

Advisory Actions have also extended this
protection to the Twelve Traditions and the
Twelve Concepts.

This means that more than 2/3 of the
Delegates at the Conference approved those
Advisory Actions.

As the Conference Charter states Advisory
Actions have no force of law. In other words,
the Trustees have every legal right to ignore
those directives. However, we have a history
of honoring the substantially unanimous
conscience of the fellowship as expressed
by the Delegates through the Conference.

As a result the Trustees have never acted
in opposition to any Advisory Action. In
fact, they will honor actions approved by
a strong majority that does not quite reach
the 2/3 level.

- - - -

That does not mean the Big Book has not changed
over the years. There is an original manuscript
that you will frequently see at Conferences,
Dinners and Conventions. Many times you will
hear its version of "How It Works" at such an
event because it is different from the version
that was eventually published. That manuscript
was changed by revue of the fellowship that
resulted in rewrite by Bill.

- - - -

There are also changes over the years to the
originally published version. Dr. Silkworth's
name did not appear with his letter in early
printings. The Doctor's Opinion used to be on
Page 1 and now it is a roman numeral section
and Bill's Story is on Page 1.

Numeric references were also changed in
various printings. The one that struck me
first when I was newly reading the book was
the reference to "Here are thousands of men
and women" in the chapter, We Agnostics. I
wondered how that could be when there were
only a hundred when the book was written.
The answer was that these kinds of references
were updated over the several printings.
However, the basic ideas and word of the
basic text have not been changed.

- - - -

To see how strong the feeling against change
is we only have to look at the Fourth Edition.
When the first printing came out, there were
some editorial changes made to DR. Bob's story.
These were strictly grammar and punctuation
changes but they elicited tremendous reaction
within the fellowship. An item was submitted
and accepted for the following year's Confer-
ence Agenda. One basis of the item is that
the story had been changed without the written
approval of three fourths of the registered
groups. At the Conference, the Delegates voted
to reverse the changes.

- - - -

So, the way you would change any of these
items, you would have to submit the change to
be considered as an Agenda item for the
following Conference. It would have to be
accepted and added to the Conference. An
individual could submit it but it might have
a better chance of acceptance if it went
through your Delegate Area and the Area and
Delegate submitted letters of support. If it
made the Agenda, the Delegates would then have
to approve sending it to the registered groups
seeking their approval. If three fourths
approved then the change would be made.

- - - -

If there are other ways to get it to the groups
for approval, I'm not aware of them. Perhaps
some past Delegates or Trustees can weigh in.
In either case, you would still need the group
approval. So as you can see there is a way
but the practicality of it happening is
"remote" at best. I would say it is probably
"nil".

Jim Hoffman

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++++Message 4840. . . . . . . . . . . . Big Book font and Dr. Bob''s Buick
automobile
From: Robyn Mitchell . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/31/2008 9:11:00 PM

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Does anybody know what fonts have been used
in the various editions of the Big Book and
the Twelve and Twelve? The fonts on the cover
of the 12x12 are different from the actual
text.

Secondly, I once saw a picture of Dr. Bob in
the Buick he bought in the year or so before
he died, I didn't mark the site, does anyone
know where I might find the image again?

Thanks muchly,
Robyn

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++++Message 4841. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr. Bob''s Buick automobile
From: Cindy Miller . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/31/2008 10:33:00 PM

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Photo of Dr. Bob with his Buick in "Dr. Bob
and The Good Oldtimers," page 335.

Best,
Cindy Miller

- - - -

Also from:

"Bruce C." <brucecl2002@yahoo.com>
(brucecl2002 at yahoo.com)

"Jay Pees" <racewayjay@atlanticbb.net>
(racewayjay at atlanticbb.net)

"tomper87" <tomper99@yahoo.com>
(tomper99 at yahoo.com)

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++++Message 4842. . . . . . . . . . . . Basic Text
From: Sober186@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/31/2008 4:50:00 PM

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To me, it appears as if Bill W. was thinking
of the Book Alcoholics Anonymous as a text
book even before it was completely written.

In the A.A. Service Manual, Bill discusses
his creation of the book. He states that at
one point consideration was given to getting
an advance from Harpers. At this point there
were only two chapters completed.

On page S4 of the A.A. Service Manual, Bill
writes:

"There was another problem too, and a serious
one. If our A. A. book became the basic text
for Alcoholics Anonymous, its ownership would
be in other hands. It was evident that our
society ought to own and publish its own
literature."

Jim L.

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++++Message 4843. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Sybil C. & Tex
From: Debi Ubernosky . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/2/2008 5:53:00 PM

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Howdy AA History Lovers,

I'm curious about the reference to Sybil C's
supposed hometown of Simians, Texas.

(I'm a Texan!)

I've never heard of this town, and a Google
search does not return anything about it, nor
is there any reference to it on the State of
Texas website or the Texas Historical Society
website.

Here's another site I checked:

http://www.rootsweb.com/~usgenweb/tx/cities.htm.

So I'm wondering if there is something that
documents where Sybil was from, or whether
this is a misspelling, or something else that
could clear this up.

Thanks,

Debi

- - - -

http://www.barefootsworld.net/aasybilc.html

Sybil C.
The First Woman in A.A. West of the Mississippi
by Nancy O.

Sybil C. was the first woman to enter A.A.
west of the Mississippi. Her date of sobriety
was March 23, 1941 ....

She was born Sybil Doris Adams on May 20, 1908,
in the small oil town of Simians, Texas. Her
parents were poor but hardworking and she had
a brother Herman, ten years her senior. Herman
was called "Tex" ....

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++++Message 4844. . . . . . . . . . . . Who was Betty Love?
From: terry walton . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/3/2008 3:00:00 AM

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In "The Soul of Sponsorship" by Robert
Fitzgerald, S.J., page 56, in a letter
written by Bill Wilson to Father Ed,
he wrote:

"We'd very much like your criticisms of the
material enclosed. Do we run across the grain
of your ideas anywhere, do you care for the
writing style and is the structural situation
depicted in conformity with your observations
of AA?"

Bill also mentioned he had good help from some
other writers: Tom Powers, Betty Love and Jack
Alexander.

My question is, who was Betty Love?

I have found zero hits on the name Betty Love
on this history site.

Thank you,

Terry

P.S. On the same page Bill wrote this for a
motive behind the writing of the 12x12. He
used the word "bait."

Letter from Bill W to Father Ed (page 56
same book):

"If we are able to do a fair job on the steps,
that will be helpful and, published along with
the traditions, they may act as a bait for
reading the latter. However we'll see."

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++++Message 4845. . . . . . . . . . . . Irma Livoni -- first woman kicked
out of AA -- 1941
From: Jay Lawyer . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/3/2008 6:21:00 PM

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I just received this. Thought it was inter-
esting. This is a good example of why the
12 Traditions were necessary.

- - - -

Patti <paks68@optonline.net>
(paks68 at optonline.net) wrote:

Here is the story about Irma Livoni that some
of you asked about. Each year around this time
I try to tell this true story about what
happened not just on Dec 7th 1941 (Pearl
Harbor Day) but what happened to one of the
few women who was in AA at that time, and about
a letter she received in the mail, on Monday,
December 8th, which virtually kicked her out
of AA. This is a long email, so read it
when/if you have the time.

In Dec of 1984, I had been sober for 2-1/2
years, and working with my sponsors Bob and
Sybil Corwin since Jan of 84. Sybil had
gotten sober in March of 1941, so at the time
she was 43 yrs sober. We were driving home
from a meeting and she asked me the date
(to her it was just Sunday). I told her it
was Dec 8th, and that yesterday (Dec 7th) was
the anniversary of Pearl Harbor Day.

She said "Matt, have I ever told you about
Irma Livoni?"

"Nope, who is she?"

She said, "Well, when we get back to the
house, come in for coffee and I’ll tell you
a story about AA history and some of the
reasons we have tradition 3. Oh, and by the
way Matt, did you know that the literature
specifically protects 'queers, plain crackpots,
and fallen women,' and since you and I are at
least two out of those three, we should be
especially grateful for tradition 3? I'll
show you it when we get home."

I laughed out loud, as Sybil had a great sense
of humor, and she had been a taxi dancer,
back before she got sober, you know one of
those "10 cents a dance" ladies, and she was
divorced twice, and was a single mom, as well
as an alcoholic back then, so the term "fallen
woman" was something that hit close to home.

She had told me that it was very different
back in the 30's and 40's for a woman to be
an alcoholic. Sybil said It was a time when
women wore hats and gloves, and "respectable
women" were not usually found in a bar, or
at "whoopie parties."

Our Thursday night step study had voted to
not cover the traditions after we got to
step 12, so I figured they must not be very
important and thought I’d probably be bored
with the conversation, but she got my attention
telling me that "queers, crackpots and fallen
women" were mentioned, so I agreed to come in
for coffee.

Besides Sybil had been sober longer than I
had been alive. I didn't argue with her very
much.

Sybil got down her copy of the big book. She
said, I want you to find the traditions in
there, and read me tradition 3. It was a 1st
edition Big Book. Thicker than mine.

I said, "Is this why they call it the Big
Book?"

She said, "exactly, Bill had it printed on
big paper, with big margins around the type,
so that people would think they were really
getting something for their money."

I looked in the back of the book, where I
thought the traditions were, but couldn't
find them. "I can’t find them, Sybil."

"Exactly. That's because we didn't have any
traditions back in 1941 when I came in. And
Matt, AA was in mortal danger of destroying
itself, which is why we have traditions now."
Then she had me find them in my 3rd edition
and in my 12 & 12. I didn't read it all,
just the caption heading, and then she started
telling me the story of IRMA LIVONI.

Irma was a sponsee of Sybil's. She also
became a member in 1941, just after Sybil.
Sybil took her into her home. (Sybil told me
that many people's bottoms were very low then,
no home, no job, no watch, no car, nothing).
Sybil said it was different then for a woman
to be an alcoholic. That most of them had
burned all their bridges with their families,
and were looked down upon, even more so than
male alcoholics. Sybil said she watched AA
help Irma get sober, watched AA help Irma get
cleaned up, watched AA help Irma get her first
job in sobriety, and watched AA help Irma get
her first apartment in sobriety.

Then she said that on Dec 5th, 1941 a self-
appointed group of the members signed a letter
to Irma & mailed it 2 days before Pearl Harbor,
on that Friday, Dec 5th. Here is a copy of
the letter:

-------------------------

ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS
Post Office Box 607
Hollywood Station
Hollywood, California

December Fifth 1941

Irma Livoni
939 S. Gramercy Place
Los Angeles, California

Dear Mrs. Livoni:

At a meeting of the Executive Committee of the
Los Angeles Group of Alcoholics Anonymous,
held Dec. 4th, 1941, it was decided that your
attendance at group meetings was no longer
desired until certain explanations and plans
for the future were made to the satisfaction
of this committee. This action has been taken
for reasons which should be most apparent to
yourself. It was decided that, should you so
desire, you may appear before members of this
committee and state your attitude. This oppor-
tunity will be afforded you between now and
December 15th, 1941. You may communicate with
us at the above address by that date.

In case you do not wish to appear, we shall
consider the matter closed and that your
membership is terminated.

Alcoholics Anonymous, Los Angeles Group
Mortimer, Frank, Edmund, Fay D., Pete, Al

-------------------------

I was stunned. "How could they do this,
Sybil?"

"Because we didn't have any guidelines,
any traditions to protect us from good
intentions. AA was very new, and people
did all sorts of things, thinking they were
protecting the fellowship."

Sybil then said to close my eyes and imagine
my being in the following setting. Sybil
explained that Dec 7th, 1941 was Pearl Harbor
Day (a Sunday). She said that that Sunday
night everyone in LA was afraid that Los
Angeles would also be attacked and bombed.
There was a citywide blackout, people were so
terrified. She said that on Monday Dec 8th,
President Rosevelt gave the speech that
talked about "the date that will live in
infamy" and that we were now at war with
Japan and Germany.

She said, that was the day that Irma
received her letter. There was only one
meeting in the entire state of California
when Sybil came in, in 1941. By December
there may have been two or three, but Irma
had nowhere else to go, no one else to turn
to. No other Group in California that she
could ask for help.

Sybil said, "Imagine only one or two meetings
in your entire state, and being shunned by
your family, and by society, and by the
only group of people who were on your side,
your AA group. Imagine them shutting the door
on you and sending you such a letter, Matt."

I shivered at the thought of it. It was
Christmas time, the stores were decorated
and now poor Irma was all alone.

I thought about how it was in 1984 with
2000 meetings a week to choose from in
Southern California. and then I imagined
having no other help for a hopeless
alcoholic.

Sybil told me that Irma never came back to
another meeting, left AA and died of alcoholism.
She wrote to Bill about the incident, and I
cannot tell you that this is the reason that
the following is a part of the 3rd Tradition,
but it certainly seems to apply.

From Tradition 3, page 141:

-------------------------

... that we would neither punish nor deprive
any AA of membership, that we must never
compel anyone to pay anything, believe
anything, or conform to anything? The answer,
now seen in Tradition Three, was simplicity
itself. At last experience taught us that to
take away any alcoholic's full chance was
sometimes to pronounce his death sentence,
and often to condem him to endless misery.
Who dared to be judge, jury and executioner
of his own sick brother?"

-------------------------

JUDGE JURY AND EXECUTIONER

I remember looking at those words again and
again, and they seemed to get larger and
larger.

JUDGE JURY AND EXECUTIONER

JUDGE JURY AND EXECUTIONER

JUDGE JURY AND EXECUTIONER

I hadn't really noticed EXECUTIONER when I
had read it the first time at my 12 & 12
study group. Again I felt so bad for this
poor lady. Wow, those words really had a
different meaning than when I had read the
traditions before. So here it is, 23 years
later, and each December 7th & 8th, I always
think about Irma Livoni, and how lucky I am,
that we have traditions now. I also think of
how lucky I was to have met Sybil and so
lucky that she appointed herself my sponsor.

Years later I realized how everything she ever
taught me was like gold. But in 1984 I had no
idea who Sybil really was or how lucky I was
to have her as my sponsor. She was like a
piece of living history, but I really didn't
realize how valuable that was in explaining
WHY we do some of the things we do (like the
story she told me about how they never said
"Hi Sybil" and no one said "Hi my name is
Matt and I'm an alcoholic" back then).

Besides being one of the first women in AA,
Sybil was the first woman west of the Nissis-
sippi. She also became the head of LA's
central office for 12 years, and she became
close friends with Bill and Lois. She and
Bob even used to go on vacation with them.
She used to tell me all sorts of stories
about Bill Wilson and things he said to her.

He was very interested in how AA would work
for women, as there were very few women
worldwide in AA back in 1941. Marty Mann
came in before Sybil did, but very few
stayed sober.

I learned that night that no one can get kicked
out of AA. We can ask a disturbing wet drunk
that he needs to settle down or we might have
to ask him to step outside for that day, but
we don't vote to kick anyone out forever. And
we don't shun people because our guidelines,
our traditions tell us that no one has to
believe in anything (they don't have to be
like me) and they don't have to conform to
anything(they don't have to dress a certain
way, or have no facial hair, or pay anything).
Even if I get drunk again, I am still welcome
at any AA meeting.

So that's the story about Irma Livoni. Feel
free to pass this along to anyone you know
who might be interested in knowing a bit about
how and why the traditions got started. I
think it sort of puts a face on tradition 3:
the face of a woman I never knew, who got
kicked out of AA. Who got drunk and died.

Thank God for Tradition 3, and thank God for
all of you. I truly appreciate and cherish
all the people in this group.

Best AA love to you all.

"God hasn't promised us tomorrow,
but he has promised us eternity."

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++++Message 4846. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Irma Livoni -- first woman
kicked out of AA -- 1941
From: Chris Budnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/4/2008 7:30:00 PM

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This is wonderful. I had seen this letter
while touring the Akron Intergroup but couldn't
remember the woman's name or the exact wording
of the letter. I remember thinking how
foreign of a concept that someone could be
kicked out of AA. It helped put into context
my short years of recovery with what it was
like for members such as Irma before there
were the Traditions.

(1) Does anyone have information on why they
wrote: "This action has been taken for reasons
which should be most apparent to yourself."

(2) Does anyone know more specifics about
Irma - when she died etc.

(3) Also, is there any information about the
members who signed the letter (Mortimer, Frank,
Edmund, Fay D., Pete, Al)?

(4) I wonder if they remained members of
Alcoholics Anonymous and if their thoughts
about how they handled this situation changed
over the years?

Chris B.

Raleigh, NC

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++++Message 4847. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Sybil C. & Tex
From: tomper87 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/4/2008 4:35:00 PM

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"Debi Ubernosky" <dkuber1990@...> wrote:
> Howdy AA History Lovers,
>
> I'm curious about the reference to Sybil C's
> supposed hometown of Simians, Texas.

Hopefully this will not confuse the issue but
here is a possible explanation from a flyer of
one of Sybil's many AA talks. Her birth town
is here referred to as Semens, Texas. Also
very difficult to find this town in Texas.
My conclusion is that they are referring to
Simmons, Texas. The info was probably taken
from her talk and they did not get the spelling
correct. Hope this is helpful.

-Tom P.

- - - -

S Y B I L C O R W I N

Anniversary Meeting

Waterloo, Iowa

April 9, 1993

"A Timeless Staple on the AA Trail"

75 years Young at the time of this Talk!

Sybil was the first woman west of the Missis-
sippi River to get sober in AA. She mentions
that Marty Mann shared that honor on the East
Coast.

Her Sobriety Date is March 23, 1941. She had
been married five times. She introduces
herself at the beginning of her talk as Sybil
Doris Adams Stratton Hart Maxwell Willis
Corwin. She had just celebrated 42 years of
Sobriety at the time this talk took place.

Born in a lil' town of Semens Texas that had
a wooden school house. She tells of lovin'
that School House. Parents were religious and
thought of whiskey as Evil. Momma was nervous
and frightened and it rubbed off on her. A
scared child, she had no one to play with.
Started reading at four and learned by reading
off of a Biscuit Box on the kitchen table.

The family moved to Los Angeles and at 14 or
so she wanted to know what her Papa was talking
about when he spoke of whiskey so she drank a
whole bottle offered to her by her classmates.
Woke up in shame and remorse in her Momma's
bed. A dismal attempt to stop drinking proved
futile.

"I didn't want to behave like that"

Became defiant and Belligerent and she was
derailed at every turn.

First marriage to a Sailor produced one child.
Her only child.

Drinking out of control and more marriages
she at the end of her rope reads the article
in the Saturday Evening Post on March 1, 1941.

"A women drunk was beneath everything you can
think about"

Writing a letter to AA for help; she received
a return letter from Ruth Hock, AA's first
secretary. Ruth told her about a little group
of men meeting in Los Angeles.

This group was given a Red Big Book by Kay
Miller who migrated to LA from NY. Her husband
was in AA. She was not an Alcoholic but
started many meetings.

You will hear how Sybil recruited new Alcoholic
Women to come into the Program and she names
many of the old timers, including Cliff Walker
who became her Sponsor.

A unique sharing of the Steps comes at the
close of this great and history filled talk.

Sybil passed on April 29, 1998

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++++Message 4848. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Irma Livoni -- first woman
kicked out of AA -- 1941
From: Jim M . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/4/2008 10:50:00 PM

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Some time back (a few years) I was contacted
by an individual who I believe said was in the
posession of the original letter and thought
I would be interested in it.

If this is the case and is true the actual
date of the letter was December 6th, 1941.
You can view it here:

http://www.silkworth.net/aahistory/irmal1941.html

Jim

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++++Message 4849. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Irma Livoni & Sybil C threads
From: t . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/4/2008 11:37:00 PM

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some Grapevine info might be worth noting:

Grapevine article by Sybil C., February 1992,
"Learning to Fly"
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/1539

"What We Were Like, Fragments of AA History
(Los Angeles)" - Grapevine, June 1990 -
from a Series on AA history
http://silkworth.net/pdfhistory/What-We-Were-Like-Fragments-of-AA-History-Ju
n-19\

90.pdf [7]

"What We Were Like, The North Hollywood Group" -
Grapevine, May 1997 - Linda H., North Hollywood,
California
http://silkworth.net/pdfhistory/What-We-Were-Like-The-North-Hollywood-Group-
May-\

1997.pdf [8]

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++++Message 4850. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Sybil C. & Tex
From: tomper87 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/5/2008 10:42:00 AM

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After reading my own post I realized the
Waterloo Poster of Sybil's talk had at least
one error. She was 85 years young at the
time of this particular talk in 1993. OOPS!

-Tom P.

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++++Message 4851. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Sybil C. & Tex
From: charles Knapp . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/5/2008 1:10:00 AM

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Hello,

As a novice genealogist I checked the US
Census and found that in 1910 Sybil’s family
was living in Melrose, New Mexico and 1920 the
family was living in Wichita Texas.

Both censuses stated Sybil was born in New
Mexico. Since Sybil was born in 1908 and the
1910 census was taken in Melrose NM it is a
good chance she was born in New Mexico and
not in Texas. I Googled and couldn’t find a
Simians, New Mexico either. So not sure
what city she was actually born in.

I also discovered Sybil’s brother Tex's
full name was Herman Lafayette Adams. I have
2 different birth dates for him. On his
WWI draft registration it stated his birthday
as July 17, 1898, but his death certificate
states his birthday as October 19, 1898. He
died October 11, 1952.

Sybil also had another older brother, Clyde
Ernest Adams. He was born August 21, 1903
and died February 14, 1994. (Do not believe
he ever needed AA.)

I also have the exact date that Sybil died.
According the Social Security Death Index she
died April 29, 1998, not 1988.

I know this to be the correct year because I
went to her memorial service. I got sober in
1989 so it could not have been 1988.

Hope this helps,

Charles from California

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++++Message 4852. . . . . . . . . . . . AA Movie Preview
From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/4/2008 10:39:00 PM

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AA Movie PreviewCopy & paste this web address:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5aSR_8u1pE

- - - -

From the moderator: there is a cameo of
Ernie Kurtz about halfway through (among
other worthies who appear in this clip).

Glenn C.

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++++Message 4853. . . . . . . . . . . . Colliers Wood
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/6/2008 3:15:00 PM

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Every once in a while you come across
something that has been put together so
well, that you wish that people in other
parts of the world could just look at it,
to see if they could get some good
suggestions for doing things where they
live.

The Colliers Wood Design for Living AA Group
in London has put together a website

http://www.designforlivingaagroup.co.uk/

that struck me that way. It's put together
beautifully, it's got nice material on
sponsorship, the AA group, and AA literature,
and keeps things firmly grounded in AA's
historic heritage.

Glenn C.
Tuesday night group
Osceola, Indiana, USA

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++++Message 4854. . . . . . . . . . . . AA in the Arabian peninsula
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/6/2008 5:48:00 PM

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An article sent to us by "John Blair"
<jblair@wmis.net> (jblair at wmis.net)

Long due recognition: UAE's AA hero

by Derek Baldwin

(December 13, 2007)

http://www.xpress4me.com/news/uae/abudhabi/20004714.html

The founder of Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) in
the UAE [United Arab Emirates] has been
nationally feted for 30 years for helping
addicts find their lives again.

In his first public appearance, Tom L.,
64, was presented with an award this
week by the Emirate of Abu Dhabi National
Rehabilitation Centre.

After years of selfless service, it is the
only time that Tom has agreed to be
photographed and identified.

In contrast to a time when a small group met
quietly to respect Muslim views about alcohol,
the centre has recognised Tom and AA for
"continuous outstanding contribution towards
recovery".

The well-attended awards ceremony was a bit
overwhelming for a man who once struggled
heavily with the bottle to the point that he
lost his job, his family and friends in the
late 1960s in India.

"It came to a point where I was living in the
streets in Mumbai. I was 26 and didn’t have
any hope," he said in an interview with
XPRESS. "Then one day I had a spiritual
awakening."

On July 20, 1970, Tom attended an AA meeting
and his life was transformed forever thanks
to the 12-Step Programme and a new relation-
ship with his "higher power".

In 1975, he moved to Abu Dhabi as a labourer
and two years later, he founded the very
first AA meeting in a small room in Deira.

"There was a need for this meeting for myself
and for others as well," he said, seated in
his spacious villa.

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++++Message 4855. . . . . . . . . . . . Member introduction and group
response
From: grault . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/8/2008 7:30:00 AM

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Does anyone know the origins of the custom of
members sharing at meetings to introduce
themselves: "I'm xxx and I'm an alcoholic" or
the (much later, I believe) practice of the
group's response: "Hi, xxx"?

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++++Message 4856. . . . . . . . . . . . Preserving archival materials
From: LouPetrosino . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/9/2008 12:13:00 PM

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I have a question about preserving magazines,
printed material and letters. I have been
using 100% virgin polyethylene magazine bags;
how do these compare to mylar bags? Is there
a preference between the two? Is 100% virgin
important?

Using the large polyethylene bags that I do
have, it's a very tight fit for our older
Saturday Evening Posts. Has anyone else had a
problem like this? Anyone have a good source
for bags? I have been using the large, 10 7/8
x 14 1/4, from Bags Unlimited - they are
supposed to fit Life, Look, Saturday Evening
Post but seem a tad small.

I have also been using acid-free board to
help stiffen the magazines, is that a good
practice?

Thanks for any help you can give.

Lou

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++++Message 4857. . . . . . . . . . . . Tom Powers and Betty Love
From: Peter Tippett . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/6/2008 6:45:00 PM

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Can/would someone clarify for me the role Tom
Powers and Betty Love played in the writing of
the 12x12, please?

Thanks,
Pete Tippett

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++++Message 4858. . . . . . . . . . . . Sybil C. & Tex
From: erb2b . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/6/2008 10:48:00 PM

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HI .. I have a good friend in Sybils daughter.
I have been sending her copies of the informa-
tion in here about her mother. Shes has
replied so far with this:

My mother was born in Simmons not Simions
according to her (Sybil). And yes, she passed
away April 29, 1998.

I will send futher information thru here
to her if you have questions you may want
answered.

Trudging in Peace!!! Corey F.
<erb2b@yahoo.com> (erb2b at yahoo.com)

- - - -

Charles Knapp <cdknapp@...> wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> As a novice genealogist I checked the US
> Census and found that in 1910 Sybil's family
> was living in Melrose, New Mexico and 1920 the
> family was living in Wichita Texas.
>
> Both censuses stated Sybil was born in New
> Mexico. Since Sybil was born in 1908 and the
> 1910 census was taken in Melrose NM it is a
> good chance she was born in New Mexico and
> not in Texas. I Googled and couldn't find a
> Simians, New Mexico either. So not sure
> what city she was actually born in.
>
> I also discovered Sybil's brother Tex's
> full name was Herman Lafayette Adams. I have
> 2 different birth dates for him. On his
> WWI draft registration it stated his birthday
> as July 17, 1898, but his death certificate
> states his birthday as October 19, 1898. He
> died October 11, 1952.
>
> Sybil also had another older brother, Clyde
> Ernest Adams. He was born August 21, 1903
> and died February 14, 1994. (Do not believe
> he ever needed AA.)
>
> I also have the exact date that Sybil died.
> According the Social Security Death Index she
> died April 29, 1998, not 1988.
>
> I know this to be the correct year because I
> went to her memorial service. I got sober in
> 1989 so it could not have been 1988.
>
> Hope this helps,
>
> Charles from California

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++++Message 4859. . . . . . . . . . . . Rensselaer, Indiana, AA Retreat
From: arcchi88 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/7/2008 10:13:00 AM

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I was wondering if anyone has any history on
a retreat that is held annually at St. Joseph's
College in Rensselaer, Indiana.

There have got to be some people who have
attended in years past who can tell a story
or two!!!

If you have ever attended this retreat and
have a story to tell, big or small, please
pass it on!

Thanks!

Tom C.

- - - -

From the moderator, Glenn C.
(South Bend, Indiana):

My first reaction was to assume that you
knew how the first AA retreats were held
there, but then I realized that you might not.
They were an important part of early AA
history however.

http://hindsfoot.org/archives.html

RALPH PFAU wrote the Golden Books under the
pen name of Father John Doe, to preserve his
anonymity. The twelfth step says "(a) Having
had a spiritual awakening as the result of
these steps, we tried (b) to carry this
message to alcoholics, and (c) to practice
these principles in all our affairs." The
Golden Books tell us how to do the last part,
that is, how to bring the principles of the
program to bear on our daily lives in the
world, how to make decisions in the real
world, and how to keep our minds and spirits
on an even keel amidst the storms and stresses
of everyday life.

Ralph Pfau was a priest in Indianapolis,
Indiana, the first Roman Catholic priest to
get sober in the A.A. program. On November 10,
1943, he telephoned Doherty Sheerin, who had
started the first A.A. group in that city on
October 28, 1940. Dohr became his sponsor,
and Ralph never drank again.

In June 1947, Ralph conducted a weekend
spiritual retreat for A.A. members (70% of
them Protestants) at St. Joseph’s College at
Rensselaer, Indiana, and gave the attendees
(as a souvenir) a little pamphlet with a
cover made of gold foil, called the "Spiritual
Side," containing the short talks he had given
to start up the various group discussion
sessions. Afterwards, people began asking for
extra copies to give to their A.A. friends.

Between then and 1964, Ralph put together
fourteen of these little "Golden Books," based
on his talks at A.A. spiritual retreats which
he was now giving all over the U.S. and Canada.

- - - -

http://hindsfoot.org/pflou3.html

When Ralph had been sober for a year and a
half or so, he began to feel frustrated about
one thing. When he went out on twelve step
calls, drunks would not accept anything he
told them, because he was a priest, and they
thought he was just preaching the old moral
condemnation line at them. He talked about it
with Dohr several times, and Dohr told Ralph
that he knew he had special things to give to
the program, and the only problem was to
discover what it was that God needed him to
do. When the solution finally came, Ralph
said, “the answer was so obvious that I felt
foolish because I hadn’t thought of it sooner.”
It was a regular practice in the Catholic
church to have spiritual retreats, where a
retreat director gave talks on Catholic belief
and practice, interspersed with periods when
people could ask questions, and periods for
group discussion sessions, and some free
periods also just for rest and quiet medita-
tion. Catholics had always found that they
could derive great spiritual benefits from
these retreats.

Ralph decided to run a trial experiment by
trying just a simple one-day retreat. He held
it at the Little Sisters of the Poor, starting
after church on Sunday, and running through
till dinner-time in the evening. This was
probably somewhere in the latter part of 1945.
It was a totally novel experience for him.
There was no preaching on Catholic dogma,
because everything was centered purely on A.A.
principles and beliefs. But more importantly,
only twenty of the sixty-seven men who came
were Catholics -- the other 70% all came from
Protestant backgrounds.

The experiment was so successful, that Ralph
decided to try a full weekend retreat, so in
early April of 1946 he wrote to St. Joseph’s
College at Rensselaer, Indiana, and they
finally agreed to let him use their buildings
during their summer vacation, in June of 1946.
This was the first weekend-long spiritual
retreat ever held in Alcoholics Anonymous.
Rensselaer was up in the northwestern corner
of Indiana, an area of the state with which
Ralph was not nearly so familiar. This
weekend affair was again a rousing success.

His theme for this retreat was “The Spiritual
Side of Alcoholics Anonymous,” which went over
so well that he gave the same talk at all the
retreats he conducted over the next year, and
finally put it out on a recording. This was
the first of what was eventually a set of
thirty phonograph records which took his
voice to A.A. people all over the United
States. And this was also where the Golden
Books began.

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++++Message 4860. . . . . . . . . . . . L J Knisely living at 855 Ardmore in
1950?
From: shakey1aa . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/8/2008 1:37:00 PM

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In the 1950 City Directory of Akron, I see
Dr. R H Smith as owner of 855 Ardmore Ave and
a phone number of UN-2436.

I also have a listing at the address for a
person named L J Knisely.

Was this person a relative of the Smith's or
perhaps a live-in nurse or just a boarder?
Does any one have any knowledge of this person?

Yours in Service
Shakey Mike Gwirtz
See you in Niagara Falls NY Sept 11-14 2008

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++++Message 4861. . . . . . . . . . . . Father Martin''s health?
From: jm48301 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/9/2008 4:53:00 PM

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On Jan. 16,it was reported (Message 4799) that
Father Martin had suffered a heart attack.

Has he recovered? My question relates to an
extraordinary figure in "AA History."

Thank you.

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++++Message 4862. . . . . . . . . . . . Lavelle or Lovell J. K., 855 Ardmore
From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/9/2008 8:31:00 PM

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The L. J. K. whom Shakey found at 855 Ardmore
in 1950 is the Lavelle K. (of Lavelle and
Emma K.) who lived there and took care of
Dr. Bob.

The two signatures I have seen of Lovell show
his name spelled that way (he was btw born in
1890 and in 1942 was living in Kent OH), but
in DR BOB AND THE GOOD OLD TIMERS (pp. 17,
272, 289, 317-318, 329-330, 333, 339-343)
it is spelled Lavelle. His middle name was
Joyce.

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++++Message 4863. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Tom Powers and Betty Love
From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/9/2008 5:19:00 PM

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Hi Pete,

I don't know anything about Betty Love, but
Tom Powers told me in a telephone interview
that he helped Bill with the 12 & 12, though
apparently without making major changes in
Bill's writing style (which Powers called
Elizabethan).

Jack Alexander, author of the breakthrough
Saturday Evening Post story about AA, also
put some finishing touches on the book,
according to Bill.

In my own opinion, the book reflects the same
style we see in Bill's other writings, so I
feel it's largely his. I think Powers and
others probably made only minor corrections
and changes.

Mel Barger

Mel
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mel Barger
melb@accesstoledo.com

----- Original Message -----
From: Peter Tippett
To: AA History Buffs
Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 6:45 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Tom Powers and Betty Love

Can/would someone clarify for me the role Tom
Powers and Betty Love played in the writing of
the 12x12, please?

Thanks,
Pete Tippett

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++++Message 4864. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Father Martin''s health?
From: oldsmokef . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/10/2008 6:00:00 PM

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There is a place on this website where people
can click for an update on Father Joseph C.
Martin's health condition:

http://www.fathermartinsashley.com/index.htm

http://www.fathermartinsashley.com/interior.php?section=News&subsection=Fath
erMa\

rtinUpdate [9]

- - - -

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,
"jm48301" <jm48301@...> wrote:
>
> On Jan. 16,it was reported (Message 4799) that
> Father Martin had suffered a heart attack.
>
> Has he recovered? My question relates to an
> extraordinary figure in "AA History."
>
> Thank you.
>

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++++Message 4865. . . . . . . . . . . . AA in Vladivostok
From: robin_foote . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/10/2008 7:17:00 AM

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Anonymous Alcoholics Will Gather in Vladivostok

This public association is a part of the World
community of anonymous alcoholics, which was
founded in 1935 in the USA

VLADIVOSTOK, February 10, vladivostoktimes.com
The self-help society of anonymous alcoholics
of Vladivostok "Welcome" celebrates its 15th
anniversary, the newspaper "Vladivostok"
writes.

The celebration of the anniversary and intro-
ducing the society will be held on Saturday at
noon in the Primorye State Arsenyev museum.

This public association is a part of the World
community of anonymous alcoholics, which was
founded in 1935 in the USA. Welcome members
are trained on the program "12 steps."

Every person can apply with his problem to
this association and get a free advice. In
these years thousands of Primorye residents
have found support. Everyone who came with
his own trouble could see that he is not lone
in this world. The trainings are held not only
with those who are tired of taking alcohol
or drugs, but also with their relatives.

"Unfortunately, not everyone is ready to refuse
of his destructive vices," one of the members
of the group of self-help of anonymous
alcoholics Sergey YAKOVLEV claims. "But it
is never late to do the first step."

http://vladivostoktimes.ru/show.php?id=21451

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++++Message 4866. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Preserving archival materials -
magazines
From: Mike Breedlove . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/9/2008 5:55:00 PM

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Lou,

Let me first mention the COOL, Conservation
online site at - http://palimpsest.stanford.edu/
This site is always a good place to start with
conservation questions.

Another good place is the Library of Congress
web page - http://www.loc.gov/preserv/ There
are many others.

The three appropriate plastics (of which I am
aware) to use to create a clear bag for a
magazine (or any other paper product) are
polyester, polypropylene, and polyethylene.
Polyester, or Mylar-D, is by its nature is
both clearer and stiffer than polypropylene,
which is somewhat clearer and stiffer than
polyethylene. So the short answer to your
question is that polyester is the best material
to us to make a "bag" for a magazine. A 2 mil
(.002) thickness polyester would be sufficient
to support the weight of the magazine unless
the magazine is particularly thick, in which
case a 3 mil would suffice. Given the reality
of cost issues, neither polyester nor polypro-
pylene is that much superior to polyethylene,
particularly if the magazine is kept in the
dark.

A couple of other facts also need to be
mentioned. Even using a bag, one should be
careful to limit handling and display. Also,
the magazine should not be sealed airtight in
the bag, as paper slowly degrades on its own.
Sealing the paper in a bag creates an ever
more acidic environment for the paper. So in
the bag one should leave at least a small
opening on one or two ends to allow a minimal
air flow. Also, if staples are used in the
magazine, please remove them carefully before
placing the magazine in the bag. The metal
staples react with the paper, accelerating
the acidification process.

Particularly with a polyethylene bag using an
acid-free, lignin-free backing board to add
stiffness is very helpful in the case of
handling or display. The one cautionary note
is that if the bag is too tight or small,
that does in fact add physical stress to the
magazine that is not helpful. It would be
better to use an oversized bag and be careful
in handling the magazine that to stuff the
magazine in too small a bag. Hope this is
helpful.

I would suggest that if anyone has more specific
questions about preserving magazines, please
respond to me at my email, mikeb415@knology.net
(mikeb415 at knology.net) rather than to the
entire list. Any questions beyond my expertise
(likely) I will try to help refer to a more
learned person.

Yours in service, Mike B,
Area One Archivist

- - - -

From: lqd8rflp@aol.com (lqd8rflp at aol.com)

Try http://www.uniline.com -- they carry all
kinds of hard to find bags, supplies, etc.

Regards,

John Hager

DOS--2/29/88

- - - -

----- Original Message -----
From: LouPetrosino
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2008 11:13 AM
Subject: [SPAM] [AAHistoryLovers] Preserving archival materials

I have a question about preserving magazines,
printed material and letters. I have been
using 100% virgin polyethylene magazine bags;
how do these compare to mylar bags? Is there
a preference between the two? Is 100% virgin
important?

Using the large polyethylene bags that I do
have, it's a very tight fit for our older
Saturday Evening Posts. Has anyone else had a
problem like this? Anyone have a good source
for bags? I have been using the large, 10 7/8
x 14 1/4, from Bags Unlimited - they are
supposed to fit Life, Look, Saturday Evening
Post but seem a tad small.

I have also been using acid-free board to
help stiffen the magazines, is that a good
practice?

Thanks for any help you can give.

Lou

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 4867. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Member introduction and group
response
From: James Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/9/2008 6:32:00 PM

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Does anyone know the origins of the custom
of members sharing at meetings to introduce
themselves: "I'm xxx and I'm an alcoholic"

Open meetings in the early years of AA were
public meetings. I'm from Montreal and the
combined groups used to put on a "Public
Meeting" once a month. The speakers were
usually doctors, wardens, social workers and
an AA member who identified himself as an
alcoholic. These meetings were given a
lot of publicity in local papers and radio.

Public meeting carried on into the early 60's
at which time they became part of the Area
Conference and the public stopped coming.

I have 90 tapes of Bill Wilson and not once
in any of his AA talks does he ever introduce
himself as an alcoholic.

Jim

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++++Message 4868. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: L J Knisely living at 855
Ardmore in 1950?
From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/10/2008 1:34:00 AM

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Hi Mike,

Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers shows that a
couple named Emma and Lavelle K. came to live
with Dr. Bob in his last months. These must
be the Kniselys.

What follows is the Dr. Bob story from the
January 1951 Grapevine. Only Emma is mentioned
by name.

Mel Barger

January 1951
Vol. 7 No. 8
Without Heroics. . .As He Would Wish It, This Is the Story Of Dr. Bob the
Physician Whose 'Practice' Reached Half Across the world. . .
Dr. Bob was born August 8, 1879, in St. Johnsbury, Vermont, a typical New
England village of some 7000 souls. As the only son of parents prominent in
civic and church activities, his early childhood was spent under strict
parental
guidance.

Signs of inner revolt came at an early age. In later years the doctor
liked to tell his children, Sue and Robert, of how he was put to bed every
evening at five o'clock. He would go quietly enough, a fact which might have
led
the modern child-psychology-wise parent to suspect the worst, but which
seemingly went unnoticed by the young man's parents. As soon as he was
reasonably sure that he was considered safely asleep, he would arise, dress
and
slip quietly downstairs and out the back door to join his village gang. So
far
as is known he was never apprehended while on his nocturnal expeditions.

The call of the woodland trail was far more fascinating to young Rob, as
his schoolmates called him, than the stuffy schoolhouse to which he was
forced
to make his reluctant way each morning. His active young mind was more apt
to be
concentrating upon the best method to trap a bear than on the dull drone of
his
teacher's voice. He wanted to be free to roam. Rebellion surged within him
at
the thought of restraint of any sort. . .study and home-work were "musts". .
.even the keenness of his youthful mind was not enough to make up for his
lack
of application to his daily lessons. Serious repercussions often followed
which
led to accusations of "waywardness" by his parents and his teachers.

Though his scholastic neglect may have disgraced him with his elders upon
occasion, his schoolmates loved him. Whether it was because his habitual and
sometimes adventurous revolts against restraint gave him a glamorous aura or
because of the accuracy with which children often sense traits of character
obscure to adults, they made him a popular and sought-after member of their
class.

Freedom from some of the "musts" came with vacations. He was released,
then, to wander the hills, hunt, and trap and swim in the sea. Often Rob and
his
friends went into Canada on hunting trips. On one of these forays into the
wilds, hunting was so poor that the boys lived on eels, blueberries and
cream of
tartar biscuits for three weeks. They did flush a particularly large
woodchuck.
They stalked him for several hours. Finally they had him within shooting
range.

After being shot at for sometime, the woodchuck disappeared. This episode
later caused Rob's father, the Judge, to remark that the woodchuck probably
went
in to get out of the noise.

The incident of the woodchuck and a tale of a great bear chase cast some
shadow of doubt on young Rob's prowess as a hunter and woodsman. Off to the
woods one day, went the young hunter and a schoolmate. The boys sauntered
along,
kicking at stones. . .building castles in the air. . .talking about the
things
that spirited adolescent males talk about. Suddenly they saw before them a
huge
bear. The bear, who was probably as astonished as the boys, took to the
woods at
a gallop. The young hunters were hard at his heels. The day was hot, the
brambles thick, courageous daring was at its height. . .the bear got away.
"I
don't believe," Dr. Bob used to say, "that we ran as fast as we might have!"

In the summers the family often spent some weeks in a cottage by the sea.
Here Rob became an expert swimmer. He and his foster sister, Nancy, spent
many
hours building and sailing their own sailboats. It was here that he saved a
young girl from drowning. This event must have left an impression. .
.probably
of the advisability for every child to learn to swim at an early age. He
taught
his own children, Robert R. and Sue, to be expert swimmers at the age of
five.
The three of them would set out every vacation morning to swim the channel
near
their cottage. This feat often caused distraught neighbors to call their
mother
to tell her that her babies had fallen out of a boat in the middle of the
channel.

While the boy, Rob, was high-spirited, considered rebellious and wayward
he was industrious and labored long and hard at anything he wanted to do. He
was
still very young when it became apparent that he was ambitious as well as
willing to work. He wanted, above all else, to become a medical doctor like
his
maternal grandfather.

When he was about nine years old he began to show signs of liking to work,
especially out of doors. That summer he was at a neighbor's farm helping the
men
load hay. Perhaps he was resting, perhaps he was prowling around poking
under
bushes to see what he could see. . .he saw a jug. . .he pulled the cork and
sniffed. It was a new odor to this son of strict New England parents. It was
an
odor that he liked. If the stuff in the jug smelled so good, it should taste
good too. And it was good. He liked the taste. He liked the way it made him
feel. A little boy; a jug of hooch; the first securely welded link in the
chain.

By the time he reached his teens, Rob was spending parts of his summers
working on a Vermont farm or juggling trays and lugging baggage as a bellhop
in
an Adirondack summer hotel. His winters were passed trying to avoid the
necessity of having to attend high school in order to receive a diploma. It
may
have been during his high school days that young Rob learned much of what
there
is to know about a billiard table. Later when his son, Robert, would tease
him
about this accomplishment as being the product of a mis-spent youth, Dr. Bob
would just smile and say nothing. He was a good student in spite of himself
and
graduated from St. Johnsbury Academy in 1898.

It was at a party given at the Academy that Dr. Bob first met Anne. A
student at Wellesley, she was spending a holiday with a college chum. It was
a
small, reserved girl whom the tall, rangy Rob met that night. With an agile
mind
to match his own, Anne had a cheerfulness, sweetness and calm that was to
remain
with her through the years. It was these same qualities that were in the
future
to endear her to hundreds as Anne, Dr. Bob's wife.

After high school at St. Johnsbury Academy came four years of college at
Dartmouth. At long last the rebellious young colt was free of his parents
restraining supervision. New experiences were to be explored and enjoyed
without
having to give an accounting.

His first discovery in his search for the facts of life on the campus was
that joining the boys for a brew seemed to make up the greater part of
after-class recreation. From Dr. Bob's point of view it was the major
extra-curricular activity. It had long been evident that whatever Rob did,
he
did well. He became a leader in the sport. He drank for the sheer fun of it
and
suffered little or no ill-effects.

Fame came to him at Dartmouth--no accolades for scholarship. . .no letters
for athletic prowess. . .his fame came for a capacity for drinking beer that
was
matched by few and topped by none. . .and for what the students called his
"patent throat." They would stand in awe watching him consume an entire
bottle
of beer without any visible muscular movement of swallowing.

The prospects of getting drunk in the evening furnished Rob and his
cronies with conversations which ran on all day. The pros and cons of
whether to
get drunk or not to get drunk would invariably drive one of their
mild-mannered
friends to distraction. He would rise in spluttering protest to say, "Well!
If I
were going to get drunk, I'd be about it!"

As often as not. . .they were about it. There were times, though, when a
change of scenery seemed more to their liking. Like the time Rob and a
friend
got it into their heads that going to Montpelier, Vermont was a fine idea.
Admiral Dewey had just returned from Manila and was to parade through the
town.
Being in the usual state of financial embarrassment, how to get there caused
a
fleeting problem, but being convinced that where there was a will, a way
would
certainly present itself, they hopped a freight. In the morning weary but
mightily pleased with themselves, they descended from the boxcar in
Montpelier.
As they walked up the street toward the parade route they met a fellow
Dartmouth
student. The boys greeted him with as much dignity as their grimy faces and
straw-flecked garments would allow. To their astonishment his "Hello" was
most
cordial. Wouldn't they like to go to the State House with him? There, from
the
reviewing stand, the boys viewed the parade with their Dartmouth friend,
whose
father was the Governor of Vermont.

Through the carefree days at college he studied just about as much as he
had to, to get by. But he was a good student none-the-less. Here he made
friends
whom he was to know and to see from time to time through his life. .
.friends
who did not always approve of his drinking prowess, but loved him in spite
of
it.

His last years at Dartmouth were spent doing exactly what he wanted to do
with little thought of the wishes or feelings of others. . .a state of mind
which became more and more predominate as the years passed. Rob graduated in
1902. . ."summa cum laude" in the eyes of the drinking fraternity. The dean
had
a somewhat lower estimate.

Now that he held a Dartmouth diploma, it seemed advisable that the willful
young man settle down to making a living and a solid, secure future for
himself.
He wasn't ready to settle down to a job. The strong desire to become a
medical
doctor was still with him. His mother, who had never approved of this career
for
her son, hadn't altered her views. He went to work.

For the next three years his business career was varied, if not
successful. The first two years he worked for a large scale company; then he
went to Montreal where he labored diligently at selling railway supplies,
gas
engines of all sorts and many other items of heavy hardware. He left
Montreal
and went to Boston where he was employed at Filene's. What his duties were
there, have never been recorded.

All through this three year period he was drinking as much as purse
allowed, still without getting into any serious trouble. But he wasn't
making
any headway either. Whatever his duties at Filene's were, they certainly
were
not what he wanted to do. He still wanted to be a doctor. It was time he was
about it. He quit his job at the store and that Fall entered the University
of
Michigan as a premedical student.

Again he was free of all restraint and doing just as he wanted to do.
Earnestly, he got down to serious business. . .the serious business of
drinking
as much as he could and still make it to class in the morning. His famous
capacity for beer followed him to the Michigan campus. He was elected to
membership in the drinking fraternity. Once again he displayed the wonders
of
his "patent throat" before his gaping brothers.

He, who had boasted to his friends. . ."Never had a hangover in my life. .
.began to have the morning after shakes. Many a morning Dr. Bob went to
classes
and even though fully prepared, turned away at the door and went back to the
fraternity house. So bad were his jitters that he feared he would cause a
scene
if he should be called on.

He went from bad to worse. No longer drinking for the fun of it, his life
at Michigan became one long binge after another. In the Spring of his
Sophomore
year, Dr. Bob made up his mind that he could not complete his course. He
packed
his grip and headed South.

After a month spent on a large farm owned by a friend, the fog began to
clear from his brain. As he began to think more clearly he realized that it
was
very foolish to quit school. He decided to return and continue his work.

The faculty had other ideas on the subject. They were, they told him,
completely disgusted. It would require no effort at all to get along without
his
presence on the Michigan campus. After a long argument they allowed him to
return to take his exams. He passed them creditably. After many more painful
discussions, the faculty also gave him his credits.

That Fall he entered Brush University as a Junior. Here his drinking
became so much worse that his fraternity brothers felt forced to send for
his
father. The Judge made the long journey in a vain effort to get him
straightened
out.

After those long disastrous binges when Dr. Bob was forced to face his
father he had a deep feeling of guilt. His father always met the situation
quietly, "Well, what did this one cost you?" he would ask. Oddly enough this
feeling of guilt would come, not because he felt that he had hurt him in any
way, but because his father seemed, somehow, to understand. It was this
quiet,
hopeless understanding that pained him deep inside.

He was drinking more and more hard liquor, now, and coming up to his final
exams he went on a particularly rough binge. When he went in to the
examinations
his hand trembled so badly he could not hold a pencil. He was, of course,
called
before the faculty. Their decision was that if he wished to graduate he must
come back for two more quarters, remaining absolutely dry. This he was able
to
do. The faculty considered his work so creditable he was able to secure a
much
coveted internship in City Hospital in Akron, Ohio.

The first two years in Akron, as a young interne, were free of trouble.
Hard work took the place of hard drinking simply because there wasn't time
for
both. At one time during his internship he ran the hospital pharmacy by
himself.
This added to other duties took him all over the hospital. . .running up and
down the stairs because the elevators were too slow. . .running here,
rushing
there as if the devil were after him. All this frenzied activity never
failed to
bring about an explosive, "Now where is that cadaverous young Yankee!" from
one
of the older doctors who became particularly fond of him.

Though the two years as interne at City were hectic, Dr. Bob had time to
learn much from the older men who were glad to share their knowledge with
him.
He began to perfect his own skills so that he might become a specialist, a
surgeon.

When his two years of internship were over he opened an office in The
Second National Bank Building, in Akron. This was in 1912. His offices were
in
the same building until he retired from practice in 1948.

Completely out on his own now, and again free to do as he chose--some
money in his pocket and all the time in the world. It may have been that
reaction set in from all the work, the irregular hours, the hectic life of
an
interne; it may have been real or imagined; whatever caused it, Dr. Bob
developed considerable stomach trouble. The remedy for that was, of course,
a
couple of drinks. It didn't take him long to return to the old drinking
habits.

Now he began to know the real horror, the suffering of pain that goes with
alcoholism. In hope of relief, he incarcerated himself at least a dozen
times in
one of the local sanitariums. After three years of this torture he ended up
in a
local hospital where they tried to help him. But he got his friends to
smuggle
him in a quart. Or, if that failed, it wasn't difficult for a man who knew
his
way around a hospital to steal the alcohol kept in the building. He got
rapidly
worse.

Finally his father had to send a doctor out from St. Johnsbury to attempt
to get him home. Somehow the doctor managed to get him back to the house he
was
born in, where he stayed in bed for two months before he could venture out.
He
stayed around town for about two months more, then returned to Akron to
resume
his practice. Dr. Bob was thoroughly scared, either by what had happened, by
what the doctor had told him, or both. He went into one of his dry periods
and
stayed that way until the 18th Amendment was passed.

In 1915 he went back to Chicago to marry Anne. He brought her back to
Akron as his bride. The first three years of their married life were free of
the
unhappiness that was to come later. He became established in his practice.
Their
son Robert was born and life began to make a sensible pattern. Then the 18th
Amendment was passed.

Dr. Bob's reasoning was quite typical at this time, if not quite logical.
It would make very little difference if he did take a few drinks now. The
liquor
that he and his friends had bought in amounts according to the size of their
bank accounts, would soon be gone. He could come to no harm. He was soon to
learn the facts of the Great American Experiment.

The government obligingly made it possible for doctors to obtain unlimited
supplies of liquor. Often during those black years, Dr. Bob, who held his
profession sacred, would go to the phone book, pick out a name at random and
fill out the prescription which would get him a pint of whisky.

When all else failed there was the newly accredited member of American
society, the bootlegger. A moderate beginning led to Dr. Bob's usual ending.

During the next few years, he developed two distinct phobias. One was the
fear of not sleeping and the other was the fear of running out of liquor. So
began the squirrel-cage existence. Staying sober to earn enough money to get
drunk. . .getting drunk to go to sleep. . .using sedatives to quiet the
jitters.
. .staying sober. . .earning money. . .getting drunk. . .smuggling home a
bottle. . .hiding the bottle from Anne who became an expert at detecting
hiding
places

This horrible nightmare went on for seventeen years. Somehow he had the
good sense to stay away from the hospital and not to receive patients if he
were
drinking. He stayed sober every day until four o'clock, then came home. In
this
way he was able to keep his drinking problem from becoming common knowledge
or
hospital gossip.

Through these mad years Dr. Bob was an active member of the City Hospital
Staff and often he had occasion to go to St. Thomas Hospital, where in 1934,
he
became a member of the Courtesy Staff and in 1943, a member of the Active
Staff.
It was during one of these visits to St. Thomas, in 1928, that in the course
of
his duties, he met Sister Mary Ignatia.

The meeting seemed of no particular consequence at the time. Many Sisters
came to St. Thomas, then departed for duties elsewhere. Though neither of
them
knew it, the meeting was to have great importance to them both in the years
to
come. Sister Ignatia, like the others, never knew of the inner turmoil with
which this man was beset. . ."He just always seemed different than the rest.
.
.he brought something with him when he came into a room. . .I never knew
what it
was, I just felt it. . ."

So perhaps it was, then, that the Hand that moves us all was beginning to
speed up the events that led to Dr. Bob's meeting with the stranger.

Anne and the children now lived in a shambles of broken promises, given in
all sincerity. Unable to see her friends, she existed on the bare
necessities.
About all she had left was her faith that her prayers for her husband would
somehow be answered.

It then happened that Dr. Bob and Anne were thrown in with a crowd of
people who attracted Dr. Bob because of their poise, health and happiness.
These
people spoke without embarrassment, a thing he could never do. They all
seemed
very much at ease. Above all, they seemed happy. They were members of the
Oxford
Group.

Self conscious, ill at ease most of the time, his health nearing the
breaking point, Dr. Bob was thoroughly miserable. He sensed that these
new-found
friends had something that he did not have. He felt that he could profit
from
them.

When he learned that what they had was something of a spiritual nature,
his enthusiasm was somewhat dampened. Unfortunately his childhood background
of
church twice during the week and three times on Sunday had caused him to
resolve
that he would never appear in a church so long as he lived. He kept that
resolve
for 40 years except when his presence there was absolutely necessary. It
helped
some to find out that these people did not gather in a church but at each
other's homes.

That they might have the answer to his drinking problem never entered his
head but he thought it could do him no harm to study their philosophy. For
the
next two and one half years he attended their meetings. And got drunk
regularly!

Anne became deeply interested in the group and her interest sustained Dr.
Bob's. He delved into religious philosophy, he read the Scriptures, he
studied
spiritual interpretations, the lives of the Saints. Like a sponge he soaked
up
the spiritual philosophies of the ages. Anne kept her simple faith in
prayer. .
.and her courage--Dr. Bob got drunk.

Then one Saturday afternoon, Henrietta called Anne. Could they come over
to meet a friend of hers who might help Bob. . .

At five o'clock Sunday evening they were at Henrietta's door. Dr. Bob
faced Bill W. who said, "You must be awfully thirsty. . .this won't take us
long. . ."

From the moment Bill spoke to him, Dr. Bob knew that here was a man who
knew what he was talking about. As the hours passed, Bill told of his
experiences with alcohol; he told him of the simple message that a friend
had
brought. . . "Show me your faith and by my works I will show you mine. . ."

Slowly, at first, then with sudden clarity, Dr. Bob began to understand.
Bill had been able to control his drinking problem by the very means that
Dr.
Bob, himself had been trying to use. . .but there was a difference. The
spiritual approach was as useless as any other if you soaked it up like a
sponge
and kept it all to yourself. True, Bill had been preaching his message at
any
drunk who would listen; he had been unsuccessful 'til now, but the important
thing was that by giving his knowledge away, he, himself, was sober!

There was one more short binge for Dr. Bob after that talk. On June 10,
1935, he took his last drink. It was high time now to put his house in
order.
With his quiet professional dignity, his ready humor, he got about it.

Bill stayed on in Akron for several months, living with Dr. Bob and Anne.
It wasn't long before they realized that they needed another drunk to help,
if
they could. The two men went over to City Hospital. They asked the nurse on
"admitting" if she had an alcoholic in the hospital. They were taken to a
room
where a man lay strapped to the bed, writhing in agony, "Will this one do?"
the
nurse asked. "This one" would do very well. That human wreck to whom they
talked
that day and several times after, came out of the hospital, sober. Bill D.
became the third member of the little group. . .AA Number Three!

Dr. Bob now was a man with a purpose and the will to live. When the fog
cleared out of his brain, his health had improved. He felt so good in the
summer
of 1935, at 56 years of age, that he took Bob and Sue out to the tennis
courts
one day. He played them six straight sets of tennis. The kids were done in.

Anne began to live again, too. She was happy with her husband's new-found,
joyful sobriety. She was no longer friendless, alone. Her kitchen table was
almost always littered with coffee cups, a fresh pot-full sat waiting on the
stove. Her faith, her belief in prayer and divine guidance went far to carry
the
men through that first summer.

In the year 1935, there were few men alive who would accept the fact that
alcoholism is a disease, which should be treated as such. Prejudice and
ignorance were some of the problems facing Dr. Bob as he set about helping
sick
alcoholics with his professional skill and his new-found spiritual
understanding. City Hospital was often filled with drunks smuggled in under
trumped-up diagnosis. The old-timers who were hospitalized during those
first
years were admitted as suffering from "acute gastritis."

Since he was on the courtesy staff at St. Thomas, run by the Sisters of
Charity of St. Augustine, Dr. Bob felt that he might enlist the help of
Sister
Ignatia. He knew that it had never seemed right to her that a drunk should
be
turned away. She couldn't understand why a drunk on the verge of DT's was
turned
away but a drunk with a bashed-in head was admitted. They were both sick.
They
both needed help.

His first approach to her on the subject was casual. He didn't tell her
much nor did he make any promises. He just told her that he was trying to
treat
alcoholics by a new method. He and some other alcoholics, he said believed
that
alcoholism could be controlled by medical attention coupled with the
spiritual.
His remarks, though brief, made sense to her.

It wasn't long before Dr. Bob brought in an alcoholic. Sister admitted him
as having acute indigestion. He was put to bed in a double room. Then Dr.
Bob
told her quietly, "We'd like to have him in a private room in the morning."
As
if it weren't bad enough to have an illegal admittance on her conscience
this
man was asking for a private room! Morning found the patient peacefully
asleep,
on a cot in the room where flowers were trimmed and arranged for patients'
rooms!

After that more and more "acute gastritis" cases woke up in St. Thomas
Hospital. In August, 1939, Dr. Bob brought a patient to Sister for
admittance.
So far as is known, he was the first alcoholic ever to be admitted into a
general hospital under the diagnosis: Alcoholism. Dr. Bob never could
remember
just what the policy of the hospital was at that time, nor did he recall
ever
having asked.

Since that August day there have been 4800 cases admitted into St. Thomas.
Until Dr. Bob retired, he visited the ward each day to give personal
attention
to each patient. His cheerful, "Well, what can I do for you?" was heard in
the
ward for the last time, on Christmas, 1949. On that day Sister played the
organ
for him and showed him the beautiful new chimes. . .talked of her hopes of
more
beds and furniture for a lounge outside the ward. The chimes tell the story
of
the bitter criticism of 10 years ago to the complete co-operation from
everyone
connected with the hospital today. But so long as Sister Ignatia goes about
her
duties on the admitting desk and in the AA ward, whenever a drunk is brought
in
a call will come, "Sister, you'd better come. One of your boys is
downstairs!"

Dr. Bob and his first few red-eyed disciples continued to meet with the
Oxford Group. But they were a 'special interest' bloc. The unpredictable
nature
of the alcoholic and his preoccupation with the earthy realities of drinking
and
drunkenness, led the tactful Doctor to the idea of separate meetings.

Without fuss or bother, Dr. Bob announced that there would be a meeting
for the alcoholics. . .if any of them cared to come. When the meeting came
to
order, all of the little band were there. Dr. Bob put his foot on the rung
of a
dining room chair, identified himself as an alcoholic and began reading The
Sermon on the Mount. Still not known as Alcoholics Anonymous, this was the
first
Akron meeting for alcoholics only.

Word of the work being done in Akron began to spread to nearby Cleveland.
Men began coming over to be hospitalized in St. Thomas or City Hospital. The
growth of the group speeded up. By 1939, they were meeting in Akron's Kings
School. They had long since outgrown Anne's small house. Through all the
growth,
the hurts that come with growing pains, the gossip, the little grievances,
Dr.
Bob listened to them all.

Occasionally, he advised. He became the "father confessor" to the group.
So sacred to him were confidences, that he would not break them for anybody
or
anything. Anne used to tease him about be-being "so close-mouthed" that she
claimed she didn't know a thing that was going on. She laughingly told him
that
she would divorce him unless he told her some of the things he knew. . .but
she
was quick to retract her statement because she knew, even for her, he would
not
break a confidence.

By 1939, there were enough men coming to Akron from Cleveland to make it
seem advisable to start a Cleveland Group. The first meeting was held in May
of
that year. The break away from the Akron group brought with it
disagreements.
The only thing that kept them on an even keel, say those pioneers, was the
sound
wisdom of Dr. Bob. How he kept his sanity seemed a miracle. There he was,
they
say, in the midst of a bunch of unstable people, not yet dry behind the
cars. It
may have been because he would never allow one man to speak ill of another
unless that man were present, that the Cleveland off-spring survived.

By the end of 1939, Cleveland had proved a big point in AA history. It had
proved, first that one group could break from another. This they proved
conclusively because by the end of the year there was not one Cleveland
group. .
.there were three! The two splits had been brought about by differences of
opinion. It seemed that no matter what happened the group activity would go
on.
Cleveland proved, too, that alcoholics could be sobered up on what almost
amounted to a mass production basis. By 1944, the Cleveland membership was
well
past 1000. Dr. Bob's wise counsel was right. . ."there's no use worrying
about
these things. As long as people have faith and believe, this will go on."

In the years that came after that meeting on Mother's Day, 1935, Dr. Bob
gave freely of himself to all who came to ask for help, to seek advice. .
.to
laugh or to cry. In so helping others, he began to rebuild himself.
Professionally, he became loved and respected by all who worked with him. .
.socially he was once again the kind, dignified man who Anne and their
friends
knew and admired.

Dr. Bob, as Anne had known him to be, was possessed of calm professional
dignity which gave courage and heart to his patients. In the years to come,
this
dignity, was to play a large part in the lives of the hundreds who came to
his
door. Never given to loose talk, Dr. Bob controlled his tongue as surely, as
steadily and as potently as he did his scalpel. He used the gift of speech
with
the same concise economy, the sureness of purpose, that went into each deft
movement of his surgeon's hands.

More often than not his observations were sprinkled with salty humor. Dr.
Bob had the rare quality of being able to laugh at himself and with others.
As
much a part of him as his quiet professional dignity, was this keen sense of
humor. He spoke with a broad New England accent and was given to dropping a
remark or telling a riotous story absolutely deadpan. This sometimes proved
disconcerting to those who did not know him well, especially when he
referred to
the poised, charming Anne, as "The Frail."

Seldom did he call his friends by their given names. . .it was Abercrombie
to those men of whom he was particularly fond--or Sugar to close women
friends.
. .a friend in the loan business was Shylock. This tall "cadaverous looking
Yankee" who held his profession sacred and walked through life with dignity
would tell anyone who questioned him as to his hopes, his ambitions. . .that
all
he ever wanted in life was "to have curly hair, to tap dance, to play the
piano
and to own a convertible."

One of the very early Akron members says that the first impression he had
of Dr. Bob was of a gruff person, a bit forbidding, with a habit of looking
over
his glasses. He gave the impression of looking right through to your soul.
This
AA says that he got the impression that Dr. Bob knew exactly what he was
thinking. . .and found out later that he did!

When he met Dr. Bob for the first time, what was offered seemed to the new
man, a perfect answer to an immediate and serious problem. . .it was
something
to tell a boss who, at the time was none too sympathetic to his drinking.
Dr.
Bob knew that the man wasn't being honest with him, and he knew he was
kidding
himself. No lectures were given, no recriminations. Dr. Bob began to make a
habit of stopping by the man's house after office hours. About twice a week
he
stopped for coffee and the two men discussed. . .honesty. Then Dr. Bob
suggested
that the man stop kidding himself. Their discussion moved on to faith. .
.faith
in God. The new man went to his employer and, for the first time, saw the
practical power of real honesty. A problem which had looked insurmountable,
vanished, just melted away.

Dr. Bob always began his day with a prayer and meditation over some
familiar Bible verse, then he set about his work in "My Father's vineyard.
."
The work in the "vineyard" was not easy in those years. No "preaching" would
have served, either to the alcoholics who came his way or to those skeptic
members of his profession. He began, now to make AA a way of life.

His life began to be an example of patience and serenity for all to see
and to benefit by if they so chose. It was too early in the years of
education
on alcoholism to be able to speak of the disease above a whisper. . .Dr. Bob
and
Sister Ignatia developed a little code. . .the boys on the third floor were
called the Frails, while the surgical patients were spoken of in the most
proper
professional terms. Often while he went about the business of washing up he
had
to listen in silence to bitter remarks from his fellow doctors. . ."Too bad
this
hospital is so full that a fellow can't get a patient in. . .always room for
the
drunks though--"

In the years to come he was to live to hear himself introduced as the
co-founder of "the greatest," "most wonderful," "must momentous movement of
all
times. . ." For these tributes he was grateful, but he laughed them off and
upon
one occasion was heard to remark. . ."The speaker certainly takes in a lot
of
territory and plenty of time. . ."

In his drinking days, Dr. Bob was two people, two personalities. After his
return to sobriety he remained two personalities. As he made his rounds
through
the hospitals he was the medical practitioner but as he entered the door of
the
alcoholic ward he became, Dr. Bob, a man eager, willing and able to help his
fellowman. Those who worked with him say that as he left the hospital each
day
they felt that two men went out the door. . .one a great M.D., the other a
great
man.

Dr. Bob and Anne lived simply and without pretense in their modest home.
Here they shared the joys of parenthood, the sorrows, the companionship of
their
friends. He was an industrious man, willing to work for the creature
comforts
that he loved. He accepted with humility any material wealth that came his
way.
Something of a perfectionist, he loved diamonds, not for possession, but for
the
beauty of their brilliant perfection. He would go out of his way to look at
a
diamond owned by another. . .he would go out of his way, too, to look at a
favorite view of his beloved mountains and sea.

If he had any pride in possession it was for big gleaming automobiles. He
owned, through his life, many of them. He treated them with the care that
their
mechanical perfection deserved. The car that he probably loved the most was
the
last one he bought just before the end. . .the convertible. The car that
symbolized a lifetime ambition. His friends will remember him in the summer
of
1950, at 71, speeding through the streets of Akron in his new yellow Buick
convertible--the long slim lines made even more rakish with the top down. No
hat, his face to the sun, into the driveway he sped, pebbles flying, tires
screeching, he'd swoosh to a stop! Fate, however, permitted him only 150
miles
of this joyous "hot-rod" driving. It was with reluctance, that summer, that
he
gave in to his illness. For the forty fifth year he returned to his home in
Vermont. . .in the staid and sedate sedan. . ."I won't be able to see the
mountains so well. . .but my legs are a little long for that roadster. . ."

Until the last summer his days were spent in the routine of the hospital.
. .his office and his club, for recreation. During almost all of his adult
life
in Akron, Dr. Bob lunched at the City Club. In his drinking days, it was
often
to hide away in a room until he was found by friends. But in later years it
was
to enjoy the companionship of his good friends, some of whom joined him in
his
new-found sobriety, others had no need of the help he could give them. .
.other
than the pleasure of his friendship.

Noon would almost always find him at the same table in the corner of the
men's dining room. There, for more than ten years he was served by the same
waitress, Nancy. Dr. Bob always greeted her with, "How's my chum today. .
."They
were good friends. As Nancy served him his simple lunch of melon or
grapefruit,
soup, milk or coffee and his favorite Boston CreamPie, they discussed her
problems. Once, Nancy, who was ill at the time, became uncontrollably angry
and
threw a cracker basket at another waiter. Dr. Bob admonished. . ."Now, now
Chum,
don't let little things bother you. . ."The next day he sent her "As a Man
Thinketh So Is He" and "The Runner's Bible."

Nancy always looked forward to serving Dr. Bob and his friends. . ."he was
such a good fellow. . ."Often when there was much discussion, arguments and
pros
and cons, Nancy would ask him why he didn't say something, to which he'd
answer.
. ."Too much being said already!" To Nancy, Dr. Bob was "such a good kind
man. .
.he had such a simple faith in prayer."

After luncheon, if time permitted, Dr. Bob joined his cronies for a game
of Rum or Bridge. He was expert at both; and he always played to win. The
man
who would give you his last dollar, though his own creditors might be hard
at
his heels, would take your last cent away from you, if he could, in a card
game.
. .but he never got angry. He had the habit of keeping up a steady chatter
through the game, his cronies say that it could have been annoying except
that
it was always so funny that you had to laugh.

Dr. Bob vowed that it was silly to take the game seriously. . .never could
see how these tournament players got so serious about this thing. Once when
he
and Anne were in Florida, he was airing his views to a stranger on the
seriousness of some bridge players. The subject had come up because a bridge
tournament was scheduled for that day. The two men sat together discussing
bridge until they talked themselves into entering the tournament. . .since
they
had nothing better to do. The stranger and Dr. Bob made a good showing among
the
"serious" players. They won that afternoon but upset their opponents to such
a
degree as to cause one to remark, "If you had bid right and played right you
never would have won!" Whereupon Dr. Bob said, "Quite so," as he accepted
the
first prize.

For some obscure reason, Dr. Bob always carried a pocket-full of silver.
It may have been a hangover from the insecure squirrel-cage days of the
eternal
fight to keep enough money in his pocket to buy a quart or it may have been
just
because he liked to hear the jingle but there were times when he had as much
as
ten dollars in his pocket.

He had one particular friend with whom he would match a fifty cent piece
by way of greeting. No matter where the two met, each would silently reach
into
his pocket, draw out the silver and match. Silently the winner took the
money
from the other. The first time Dr. Bob underwent serious surgery, he could
not
have visitors. His coin-matching friend came to the hospital to call. He was
met
there by Emma, the woman friend and nurse who cared for Anne. Emma met the
visitor in the guest lounge. She greeted him silently with a coin in her
palm. .
.silently they matched. Dr. Bob was the richer by fifty cents.

This man of two personalities would weep as he told you of his fear that
his skill would not enable him to save the life of a charity patient; then
again
he would weep as he told of what seemed to be a miraculous recovery. He
would
weep, too, from laughter at some story which struck his fancy.

As his son, Bob, grew into manhood, Dr. Bob shared with him the incidents
and the fun of the day. He could hardly wait, it seemed, to get home to tell
young Bob some story picked up at the hospital. Young Bob tells of how he
would
tell a good story, or listen to one, then lean back in his chair to laugh
until
the tears streamed down his cheeks. Then with a familiar gesture, he took
off
his glasses to wipe the tears away. . .still chuckling. "Our home was a
happy
one, in those days," said young Bob, "I never heard a cross word between my
mother and my father."

The war, then marriage took young Bob from home and to Texas where he now
lives. Bob laughs as he tells of his father's first meeting with his
bride-to-be. He looked her up and down then remarked, in his dry and
disconcerting fashion; "She's all right, son. She's built for speed and
light
house-keeping!"

Young Bob often remarked to his father about his seemingly endless
knowledge of medicine, philosophies and general bits of information. To
which
Dr. Bob would reply, "Well, I should know something, I've read for at least
an
hour every night of my adult life--drunk or sober." Sometime during the
course
of all the reading, he delved into Spiritualism. . .he even tried the
mysteries
of the Ouija board. He felt that in some far distant centuries, the science
of
the mind would be so developed as to make possible contact between the
living
and the dead.

All the reading of the years had included studies on alcoholism, too. This
scientific knowledge coupled with his experiences with alcoholics including
himself might well have led him to a strictly scientific approach. He could,
with ease, have spoken of statistics, cures and the like because he
undoubtedly
listened to more "case histories" than any other man alive. He listened
patiently to each man in the ward, to every person who came to his home for
advice, and there were hundreds.

He remained plain Dr. Bob, alcoholic, who came to believe that the
disorder was more on the psychological and spiritual side rather than the
physical. The thinking of the alcoholic patient was all beclouded, his
attitudes
were wrong, his philosophy of life was all mixed up, he had no spiritual
life. .
.the whole man was sick. As one man said, "He came to me in the hospital, he
sat
quietly by my bed and talked, then he prayed to his God for me. . .that's
what
stuck. . .that he took the time and interest and the compassion to pray for
me.
. ."

The happy years of Dr. Bob's sobriety were marred, at last, by Anne's
illness and blindness. Cataracts were completely covering her eyes, so that
she
could not see. . .even after surgery her last years were spent in shadows.
Dr.
Bob began, then, to be her eyes as much as he could. Still in medical
practice,
though, he could not be with her every hour. It was then, in his own quiet
way
that he found a solution.

In 1942, years before Anne's blindness had become serious, two strangers
came to his office, a man and his wife, Emma. The man was seeking the help
that
Dr. Bob could give him. The three sat in his office and talked for almost an
hour, while in the reception room waited the "paying patients."
Occasionally,
after that first meeting, Dr. Bob and Anne stopped by their house; they saw
them
each week at the AA meeting in King School.

Dr. Bob knew that Anne's blindness was fast growing worse and that she
needed daily care. . .he knew too, that she would be unhappy to think of
herself
as a burden to anyone. It came vacation time, the children were gone which
meant
that the house must be left empty. . .the dog to his own devices. What
better
plan than the nice couple, who lived down the street should come to the
house
while they were on vacation. . .to keep it in running order and watch over
the
dog? Would the couple consider throwing some clothes into a bag and going
over
to the house? So it was for eight years Emma, a nurse, and her husband came
from
time to time to stay at Dr. Bob's house. . .until it was necessary for Emma
to
be with Anne at all times. In the last years of Anne's illness she kept
house
for them and during the day, when Dr. Bob was at his office, she watched
over
Anne.

Through those last years together Anne, though in ill health, stood ever
ready to give words of hope and encouragement to all who came to her door.
Her
first thoughts were for others, never herself, no matter how badly she might
feel. When Dr. Bob and Anne prepared for their last trip together, Anne
said,
"You know, I don't really care to go but Dad wants too, and he may never be
able
to make the trip again. . .it will make him happy." Of the same trip, Dr.
Bob
said of Anne, "I don't really want to go, but Anne wants it. It will make
her
happy." Each took the long trip feeling that it was making the other happy.

It was in June, 1949, just after their return, that Anne passed away. At
the time of her passing, Dr. Bob, said, "I will miss her terribly, but she
would
have had it no other way. Had she survived this attack she would have been
in
the hospital for months. . .then there would have been months at home in
bed. .
.she would have hated being a burden. . .she could not have stood it."

In the summer of 1948, Dr. Bob found that he, too, was suffering from a
serious malady. He closed his office and retired from practice, so that he
and
Anne could live their last days together, quietly. For a time after Anne
died,
there was some indecision in the house. It was understood that Emma and her
husband, who had by this time been spending most of their time at the house,
would leave and go to their own home. Dr. Bob was to get a housekeeper or a
nurse. He did interview one woman, but his heart wasn't in it. It was then
that
they all felt that Anne had reached out and made their decision for them.

For the first few weeks after Anne's death, Dr. Bob and Emma dreamed of
Anne almost every night. To Emma, she seemed troubled. One night Emma's
dream of
Anne was so real as to be almost a vision. Emma knew what she must do. Next
morning she faced Dr. Bob. "Do you want us to stay with you?" His answer was
quick and simple, "Yes." None of them dreamed of Anne again.

So it was that the couple who once came to Dr. Bob for help, came to spend
the last year and one half with him. . .they gave up their apartment and
lived
with him until he too, passed on.

Ever the professional man, Dr. Bob watched the progress of his disease
each day. When at last, he knew that the malady was malignant and hopeless,
he
accepted it with calm and lack of resentment. He felt no bitterness at the
doctors who had failed to make an early diagnosis. . ."Why should I blame
them?
I've probably made a lot of fatal mistakes myself!"

Between the times that he was forced to stay in bed or to go to the
hospital to undergo surgery, he lived his life as normally as possible and
got
as much enjoyment out of it as he could. After Anne's death, he and a good
friend drove to the West Coast, where they renewed old acquaintances; then
they
went on to his home in Vermont. . .and to Maine. Where ever he went AAs
showered
him with attention and kindness. Of this he said, "Sometimes these good
people
do so much for me, it is embarrassing. I have done nothing to deserve it, I
have
only been an instrument through which God worked."

At home Dr. Bob settled down to enjoying his friends and the things he
could do for them. . .between his serious attacks he enjoyed "Emmy's" good
food.
"I never saw a man who could eat so much sauerkraut. . .he would go without
his
dessert, just to have another helping!" Then came the television set.

Emma's husband went to Dr. Bob one day telling him that he was in the mood
to buy a television set. "Well," said Dr. Bob, who didn't like television. .
.would have no part of it. . ."I guess if you can buy the set, I can give
you
the chimney for the aerial." The beautiful new set arrived in due time but
Dr.
Bob would have none of it. He absolutely refused to look at it. Then one
night,
as he lay on the davenport. Emma caught him peeking around his newspaper!
The
"sneaking a look" went on for days until he succumbed and became a fan.
After
that he spent long pleasant hours watching the TV shows. . .especially the
tap
dancers. . ."Hmph," he'd grunt, "that's easy. . .nothing to it. . .anybody
can
do it!" At the time of the Louis: Charles fight, he stayed in bed all day so
that he would be rested enough to see the fight that evening!

As a patient, Dr. Bob behaved himself very well except for one thing. He
refused to take his pills as they were scheduled. Instead he put his old
"patent
throat" to use. He kept a shot glass, which he filled with all the pills he
was
to take for the day. While Emma looked on in awe, even as the brothers of
yore,
he'd throw back his head and toss off the pills at one gulp. . ."What
difference
does it make? They all go to the same place anyway!"

That he knew the exact progress of his disease was evident to Emma and
those close to him, although he never complained, even when in pain. After a
doctor's call he would say to Emma, "Sugar, don't kid me now. This is the
end
isn't it?" Emma always answered with, "Now you know better. You know exactly
what's going on!"

During the Spring and Summer of 1950, when he had to husband his strength
and measure it out carefully, Dr. Bob expressed the wish to do three things.
He
wanted to attend the First International Conference of Alcoholics Anonymous
in
Cleveland. He wanted, once again, to go to St. Johnsbury, Vermont, for his
vacation. And he wanted to spend Christmas with his son in Texas. . .two of
his
wishes were fulfilled.

As the days passed and the date of the Conference drew nearer, he began
more and more, to conserve his energy. Most of his days were spent in his
room.
. .on the davenport watching the TV cap-dancers and listening to the
pianists.
Those who were close to him watched him grow weaker. . .then rally. . .

While the last, mad days of preparations for the Conference were going on
in Cleveland, it seemed, at times, to his close friends, that he would not
gather the strength to do the thing that he so much wanted to do. Even to
the
last minutes before the Big Meeting, on Sunday, it was doubtful whether he
would
be granted the vigor he needed to appear in the Cleveland Auditorium to say
the
few words that he wanted to say to the thousands waiting to hear and see
him.

Those gathered that hot Sunday afternoon, now know, that when at last Dr.
Bob joined the others on the platform they were witnessing another milestone
of
the movement built on simple faith and works. . .At the time, this throng
was
perhaps too close to history to know the full meaning of what was taking
place
before them. . .Now he came forward to speak to the thousands. . .with quiet
dignity. . .even as that night so long ago, when in Anne's living room, he
put
his foot on the rung of a dining room chair to read The Sermon on the Mount.
.
.he leaned forward against the lectern to say:

"My good friends in AA and of AA. I feel I would be very remiss if I
didn't take this opportunity to welcome you here to Cleveland not only to
this
meeting but those that have already transpired. I hope very much that the
presence of so many people and the words that you have heard will prove an
inspiration to you--not only to you but may you be able to impart that
inspiration to the boys and girls back home who were not fortunate enough to
be
able to come. In other words, we hope that your visit here has been both
enjoyable and profitable.

"I get a big thrill out of looking over a vast sea of faces like this with
a feeling that possibly some small thing that I did a number of years ago
played
an infinitely small part in making this meeting possible. I also get quite a
thrill when I think that we all had the same problem. We all did the same
things. We all get the same results in proportion to our zeal and enthusiasm
and
stick-to-itiveness. If you will pardon the injection of a personal note at
this
time, let me say that I have been in bed five of the last seven months and
my
strength hasn't returned as I would like, so my remarks of necessity will be
very brief.

"But there are two or three things that flashed into my mind on which it
would be fitting to lay a little emphasis; one is the simplicity of our
Program.
Let's not louse it all up with Freudian complexes and things that are
interesting to the scientific mind but have very little to do with our
actual AA
work. Our 12 Steps, when simmered down to the last, resolve themselves into
the
words love and service. We understand what love is and we understand what
service is. So let's bear those two things in mind.

"Let us also remember to guard that erring member--the tongue, and if we
must use it, let's use it with kindness and consideration and tolerance.

"And one more thing; none of us would be here today if somebody hadn't
taken time to explain things to us, to give us a little pat on the back, to
take
us to a meeting or two, to have done numerous little kind and thoughtful
acts in
our behalf. So let us never get the degree of smug complacency so that we're
not
willing to extend or attempt to, that help which has been so beneficial to
us,
to our less fortunate brothers. Thank you very much."

As he returned to his seat on the platform, those who watched could easily
see that the exertion of saying the brief words of counsel had left him
physically weak and spent. Try as he would, he was forced to leave after a
few
moments. In consternation thousands of eyes followed him as he left the
stage.

He was driven back to Akron, that afternoon by a friend. As Dr. Bob was
helped into the automobile, he seemed physically very near complete
exhaustion.
As they drove the thirty odd miles from Cleveland to Akron, some inner
strength
seemed to revive Dr. Bob so that by the time they drove up to his home he
was
almost his old self. The man who seemed on the point of collapse only an
hour
before, said "Well, if I'm going to be ready to go to Vermont next week, I'd
better be about it."

Shortly after the Conference, he did go to Vermont. Dr. Bob, his son and
his daughter-in-law, drove, in the sedan, to his boyhood home, where he
visited
old friends for the last time. . .and worried all the time for fear the
convertible would not be comfortable for Emma and her husband to drive on
their
long vacation trip. . ."Should've taken it myself. . ."

Upon his return home, he was admitted into St. Thomas hospital for a minor
operation. . .one of so many that had come during the last years. Then home
to
Emma's good cooking and rest.

In November, his doctors found it advisable to perform another of the
minor operations. This time, he went to City Hospital, where in 1910 he had
come
as an interne and where later, he and Bill had talked to "the third man." On
Wednesday, November 15, a day after the operation, an old friend called and
spoke to him. "Why, I'm just fine Abercrombie, just fine. . ."

Close to noontime on Thursday, November 16, 1950, he was resting. The
nurse in attendance stood by his bed, watching. . .waiting for any change
that
might come. Dr. Bob, M.D., lifted his hand to the light. . .with
professional
calm he studied the color. . .with a final confirming glance, he spoke. .
."You
had better call the family. . .this is it. . ."

--so reconciled with his brothers, he placed his gifts upon the alter and
went his way. .

Mel
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mel Barger
melb@accesstoledo.com

----- Original Message -----
From: shakey1aa
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 1:37 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] L J Knisely living at 855 Ardmore in 1950?

In the 1950 City Directory of Akron, I see
Dr. R H Smith as owner of 855 Ardmore Ave and
a phone number of UN-2436.

I also have a listing at the address for a
person named L J Knisely.

Was this person a relative of the Smith's or
perhaps a live-in nurse or just a boarder?
Does any one have any knowledge of this person?

Yours in Service
Shakey Mike Gwirtz
See you in Niagara Falls NY Sept 11-14 2008

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 4869. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Tom Powers and Betty Love
From: Phil . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/11/2008 1:27:00 AM

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--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,
Peter Tippett <petetippett@...> wrote:
>
> Can/would someone clarify for me the role Tom
> Powers and Betty Love played in the writing of
> the 12x12, please?
>
> Thanks,
> Pete Tippett
>
The following information comes out of 'The
Soul of Sponsorship' The Friendship of Fr. Ed
Dowling, S.J. and Bill Wilson in Letters.
-- By Robert Fitzgerald, S.J....Hazelden
Pittman Archives Press... Chapter 9--The
Spiritual Exercises and the Traditions--
Pg.55-56

On May 20, 1952, Bill wrote to Dowling with
a draft copy of the 12 essays on the tradi-
tions...

"We'd very much like your criticisms on the
material enclosed. Do we run across the grain
of your ideas anywhere, do you care for the
writing style and is the structural situation
depicted in conformity with your observation
of AA?"

Bill mentioned he had good help from some
writers, Tom Powers,Betty Love, and Jack
Alexander.

He wanted Dowling's input,"no punches pulled,"
and ended the letter with a request for The
Spiritual Exercises of St. Ignatius.

Phil M. Denver area AA

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++++Message 4870. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Rensselaer, Indiana, AA Retreat
From: arcchi88 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/13/2008 7:36:00 AM

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Thanks for the kind response, I am familiar
with the fact that Father Ralph Pfau started
the retreat there. However, the retreat that
is going on there still is run by Evans Avenue
(I think) of Chicago.

They are apparently celebrating the 50th year
of holding these retreats this summer. I do
not know and have been unable to find any
history on how this retreat was started in
1958.

Of course there is a gap of ten or eleven
years between the start of retreats there
by Father Pfau. Did father Pfau hand it off
to Evans Ave or another group?

I haven't found any information that would
indicate that Father Pfau continued to have
the retreats at Saint Joseph's so far.

Any additional information is greatly
appreciated!

Thanks again,

Tom C.

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "arcchi88" <arcchi88@...>
wrote:
>
> I was wondering if anyone has any history on
> a retreat that is held annually at St. Joseph's
> College in Rensselaer, Indiana.
>
> There have got to be some people who have
> attended in years past who can tell a story
> or two!!!
>
> If you have ever attended this retreat and
> have a story to tell, big or small, please
> pass it on!
>
> Thanks!
>
> Tom C.
>
> - - - -

From the moderator, Glenn C.
(South Bend, Indiana):

If the present retreat was started by the
Evans Avenue Group in Chicago, then have
you looked at this?

"Early Black A.A. along the Chicago-Gary-
South Bend Axis: The Stories and Memories
of Early Black Leaders Told in Their Own
Words"

http://hindsfoot.org/nblack1.html
http://hindsfoot.org/Nblack2.html
http://hindsfoot.org/Nblack3.html

That article doesn't mention them having
retreats at Rensselaer, Indiana, but it
might give some background.

John Shaifer lived in Gary, Indiana, but was
connected with the Evans Avenue Group in
Chicago:

http://hindsfoot.org/ngary1js.html
http://hindsfoot.org/ngary2js.html

John went one of Father Ralph Pfau's retreats
every year for at least fifteen years, if my
memory is correct, at Gethsemani Abbey in
Kentucky, and did his fifth step with Father
Pfau. I don't know whether John went to the
retreat in Rensselaer, but I am sure that the
people who organized the Rensselaer retreat
would have known him, if they were from the
Evans Avenue Group.

So there might be a linkage (via that
connection) between Father Ralph's early
retreats and the Evans Avenue retreats.

Evans Avenue is still going strong, by the
way, or at least they were when I visited
there three or four years ago, although
they had moved their fellowship house from
its original location on Evans Avenue in
Chicago. They had a lot of valuable
archival materials there, which possibly
would have the answers to all your questions.

Glenn C., South Bend, Indiana

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++++Message 4871. . . . . . . . . . . . They seem to have been born that way
From: nats_attitude . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/13/2008 10:11:00 AM

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I was wondering if anyone can tell me what
the phrase "They are not at fault; they seem
to have been born that way" means in the
contextual form it was written in the fifth
chapter of the Big Book, "How It Works."

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++++Message 4873. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: They seem to have been born that
way
From: hartsell . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/14/2008 4:01:00 AM

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Not capable of rigorous honesty.

If one looks at the DSM IV criteria for
sociopaths, or considers the term
"Congenital Liar" "born that way", one might
have a pretty fair understanding of Bill's
meaning in use of that phrase. Lest there
be an outcry to my reference to "sociopaths",
it is generally understood that they may not
have a conscience, but can be "taught" one.

My old Sponsor might have answered with a
favorite saying of his, "Alcoholics are
natural-born liars, they'll climb a tree to
tell a lie when they could stand on the
ground and tell the truth!" but then he also
contended that rigorous practice of and
adherence to 12 Step Principles would cure
that condition.

Sherry C.H.

- - - -

Original Message from: nats_attitude

I was wondering if anyone can tell me what
the phrase "They are not at fault; they seem
to have been born that way" means in the
contextual form it was written in the fifth
chapter of the Big Book, "How It Works."

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++++Message 4874. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: They seem to have been born that
way
From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/14/2008 9:56:00 AM

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I could be way off on this but on face value
there seems to be a high probability that it
contextually means:"They are not at fault;
they seem to have been born that way."

Cheers
Arthur

- - - -

Original Message from: nats_attitude

I was wondering if anyone can tell me what
the phrase "They are not at fault; they seem
to have been born that way" means in the
contextual form it was written in the fifth
chapter of the Big Book, "How It Works."

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++++Message 4875. . . . . . . . . . . . Groups looking to secede
From: dino . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/14/2008 12:27:00 PM

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Was there ever a time in AA history where
certain groups or factions made an effort to
secede en masse?

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++++Message 4876. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: AA in Vladivostok
From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/12/2008 9:33:00 AM

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Is someone going to let Sergey know about
anonymity & that AA is NOT self-help? Thanks.

Just Love,
Barefoot Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of robin_foote
Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2008 7:18 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] AA in Vladivostok

Anonymous Alcoholics Will Gather in Vladivostok

This public association is a part of the World
community of anonymous alcoholics, which was
founded in 1935 in the USA

VLADIVOSTOK, February 10, vladivostoktimes.com
The self-help society of anonymous alcoholics
of Vladivostok "Welcome" celebrates its 15th
anniversary, the newspaper "Vladivostok"
writes.

The celebration of the anniversary and intro-
ducing the society will be held on Saturday at
noon in the Primorye State Arsenyev museum.

This public association is a part of the World
community of anonymous alcoholics, which was
founded in 1935 in the USA. Welcome members
are trained on the program "12 steps."

Every person can apply with his problem to
this association and get a free advice. In
these years thousands of Primorye residents
have found support. Everyone who came with
his own trouble could see that he is not lone
in this world. The trainings are held not only
with those who are tired of taking alcohol
or drugs, but also with their relatives.

"Unfortunately, not everyone is ready to refuse
of his destructive vices," one of the members
of the group of self-help of anonymous
alcoholics Sergey YAKOVLEV claims. "But it
is never late to do the first step."

http://vladivostoktimes.ru/show.php?id=21451

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 4877. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: They seem to have been born that
way
From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/16/2008 9:34:00 AM

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--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,
"nats_attitude" <nats_attitude@...> wrote:
>
> I was wondering if anyone can tell me what
> the phrase "They are not at fault; they seem
> to have been born that way" means in the
> contextual form it was written in the fifth
> chapter of the Big Book, "How It Works."
>

It depends on what you mean by context. For
comparison, here is something form an article
on alcoholism treatment which appeared in the
July 1938 issue of Harper's. That places it
close in time to the writing of the Big Book.
The author, Genevieve Parkhurst, later wrote
an article on AA for Harper's .

"It would be misleading to claim that all
forms of alcoholism may be healed by this or
any other method. Some human beings are so
naturally unequal to the conflicts of living
that, in the light of present knowledge, little
can be done for them except to protect them
from the disturbing issues which cause them to
drink. There are also the extreme cases, the
psychotics whom alcohol has removed into the
obscure recesses of the abnormal. Their cure
is problematical and is the business of the
psychiatrist and physician alone. For any
layman to attempt to explain such cases would
be dangerous; even the most distinguished
medical scientists still disagree about them.

"By far the greater number of heavy drinkers,
however, belong in a class whose ailment can
be more easily corrected. They are the men
and women--we all know them--in whom the habit
of excess has grown until their health, their
business, their home life, and their peace of
mind are in jeopardy. They are those whom the
psychologist, Charles H. Durfee, who has been
successful in healing them, mentions in his
book To Drink or Not To Drink as "problem
drinkers." For them there is more than an even
chance of cure in a comparatively new kind of
mental therapy now being practiced by trained
psychologists who, through study and trial,
have brought it to a high level of efficacy."

The article later quotes Richard R. Peabody as
a pathfinder in the field, who said that in his
experience "seldom did a child whose parents
maintained an intelligent attitude toward
him mature into a drunkard." Evidently when
Parkhurst used the expression "trained psycho-
logists" she included some people who would be
considered lay therapists and who were also
known to the AA pioneers.

Cora

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++++Message 4878. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: They seem to have been born that
way
From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/15/2008 4:29:00 AM

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British criminal court judges used to follow
the McNaughton (I think that's how it's spelled)
rule which decreed that some accused were
incapable of entering a plea (guilty or not
guilty) to charges because they were unable
to distinguish between right and wrong
(psychopaths etc). I guess the accused had
to be diagnosed as such by a psychiatrist.

- - - -

From: hartsell@etex.net

Not capable of rigorous honesty.If one looks at the DSM IV criteria for
sociopaths, or considers the term "Congenital Liar" "born that way", one
might
have a pretty fair understanding of Bill's meaning in use of that phrase.
Lest
there be an outcry to my reference to "sociopaths", it is generally
understood
that they may not have a conscience, but can be "taught" one.My old Sponsor
might have answered with a favorite saying of his, "Alcoholics are
natural-born
liars, they'll climb a tree to tell a lie when they could stand on the
ground
and tell the truth!" but then he alsocontended that rigorous practice of and
adherence to 12 Step Principles would cure that condition.Sherry C.H.

- - - -

Original Message from: nats_attitude

I was wondering if anyone can tell me what the phrase "They are not at
fault;
they seem to have been born that way" means in the contextual form it was
written in the fifth chapter of the Big Book, "How It Works."

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++++Message 4879. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: They seem to have been born that
way
From: DudleyDobinson@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/14/2008 3:12:00 PM

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The English would call that a droll reply.
Nothing beats commons sense. What did Doctor
Bob say about Freudian complexes and looking
for hidden meanings? Keep it simple.
Be gentle to your minds

Dudley

- - - -

I could be way off on this but on face value
there seems to be a high probability that it
contextually means:"They are not at fault;
they seem to have been born that way."

Cheers
Arthur

- - - -

From: Jon Markle <serenitylodge@bellsouth.net>
(serenitylodge at bellsouth.net)

OH I LOVED THIS ANSWER.

Quite often, I think, many people try to read
between the lines of the Big Book, entirely
missing the obvious message of the little black
marks . . . the actual words. The message of
the book means exactly what those words say.

Perhaps searcching for an "easier softer way"
or at least an excuse? <GRIN>L

In my experience, Alcoholics Annonymous (the
Book) is a very simple approach for a compli-
cated people!

It says what it says. Period. No amount of
interpretation will change that, I think.
Nor does it need to.

Thanks for the good laugh, Arthur.

Hugs for the trudge.

Jon (Raleigh)
9/9/82

- - - -

From: "Murray Eaton" <meaton1287@rogers.com>
(meaton1287 at rogers.com)

I think Arthur S has summed it up concisely.

- - - -

Original Message from: nats_attitude

I was wondering if anyone can tell me what
the phrase "They are not at fault; they seem
to have been born that way" means in the
contextual form it was written in the fifth
chapter of the Big Book, "How It Works."

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++++Message 4880. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Member introduction and group
response
From: Tom White . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/14/2008 3:49:00 PM

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I came in NYC area in 1959. There were no
"Hi, Tom" cries then in that area. I first
bumped into the thing, I think in California
in the late 60s when visiting out there in
the Anaheim area. It was universal when I
got to Texas 20 years ago. And it doesn't
much bother me. Neither does the chanting at
the end, "It works if.. ."

But I admit to being positively annoyed by
people who in a small discussion meeting
insist on repeating, every time they speak,
tic-like, "My name is . . . and I'm an
alcoholic," apparently supposing since they
last talked two minutes ago we had all
forgotten that.

BTW I always use my full name since everybody
did in NYC in 1959. In this as in all else
I defer to the power of the individual group.
There appears to be no way to "fix" all this
from on High.

Tom W. Texas

- - - -

From: glennccc@sbcglobal.net
(glennccc at sbcglobal.net)

Sgt. Bill W. told me that in the late
1940's and early 1950's, people in some AA
groups introduced themselves by saying "my
name is XXXXX" and then giving their sobriety
date. In other AA groups, they said "my name
is XXXXX and I'm an alcoholic."

He said that they did it the first way on Long
Island (in the New York City area) in the
late 1940's, and that, although he certainly
did not know how it was done all over the
country, he had the impression that saying
"I'm an alcoholic" was more midwestern.

Bill also clearly felt that people who went
around worrying all the time about saying
"exactly the right words" were totally
failing to understand the true spirit of
the AA program and the twelve steps, and
would get impatient with people who
fussed about that kind of thing too much.

(Since he was getting a 50% success rate
in his work with alcoholics at Lackland
in the 1950's, he presumably had some good
ideas about what was important and what was
not important.)

I would be interested in knowing if either
version (giving your sobriety date or saying
"I'm an alcoholic") was practiced in the
1930's and early 1940's. And if so, where?

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

- - - -

From: "grault" <GRault@yahoo.com>
(GRault at yahoo.com)

I know from a New Orleans old-timer who
sobered up in New York City, that the
"Hi, ---!" response started as early as the
'60s I believe . . . certainly the "I'm
an alcoholic" introduction had long
preceded that. I heard long ago that it
was just a short way of "qualifying" for
being at a closed meeting. But all my
memories of what I've heard about it are
sketchy and very incomplete.

Gerry R.
New Orleans

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++++Message 4881. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Rensselaer, Indiana, AA Retreat
From: Phil . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/14/2008 8:02:00 PM

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About 12 Step Retreats: I'm not familiar with
your part of the country. Out west here,
Denver, Seattle, etc ... just look up Jesuit
Retreat House.

Jesuits are the Spiritual Order that Fr Ed
Dowling, Bill W's sponsor was. If you read
Pass It On...Bill's Story and the Story of
AA...You'll read about the first meeting
between Bill and his sponsor in 1940.

Fr. Ed traveled all the way from St. Louis
to New York to see if Bill intentionally
borrowed from the Spiritual Exercises of St
Ignatius (the founder of the Jesuit order)
to form the 12 Step Program of recovery.

Bill did not, but the Program is remarkably
the same as the Exercises. So the 12 step
Program has kind of been swallowed up by
the Jesuits. Almost anywhere you can find
a Jesuit Retreat House, you can find a 12
Step Retreat.

Phil M. Denver area AA

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++++Message 4882. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Groups looking to secede
From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/14/2008 11:07:00 AM

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Didn't Session Mexico, in August of 1986,
comprising 2500 groups, secede from Mexican
GSO? I remember hearing about the Mexican
army confiscating the Big Books that were
printed without the approval of GSO in Mexico
and the Director of Session Mexico was put
in Mexican prison for a year. The GSO books
were costing too much for the average Mexican
AA member to afford so the thousand or so
groups in Mexico City broke away and printed
Big Books that were affordable. My under-
standing is that Mexican GSO had the approval
of GSO in New York City To do so. Perhaps an
AAHL past delegate, during or about that
time period, can elaborate on this sad day
in AA history.

Shakey Mike Gwirtz
Phila, Pa
Going to Niagara Falls NY in Sept.

- - - -

From: "Phil" <ez4me2phil@yahoo.com>
(ez4me2phil at yahoo.com)

It is happening now in the Denver area. They
call themselves "Celebrate Recovery,"
"Overcomers Outreach," and "Recovery in
Christ," etc.... They are usually Protestants
that have a problem with the pluralism of AA,
i.e. "your own conception of God," Ebby's
message to Bill.

I find them in almost every meeting in Denver.
They prey on the fallen away Catholics and
the agnostics mostly. They try and sell them-
selves as modern versions of the Oxford Groups.
Forgetting AA history and all the things that
went down in Cleveland when AA broke away from
the Oxford groups' radical Protestant evan-
gelization.

If you end up at one of their meetings they
use things like the Recovery Bible. It is a
watered-down Protestant Bible with a lot of
pychobabble on how to self-interpret the Bible
in a recovery context.

The meetings are filled with lots of AA bashing
and talk of saving those poor fools in AA.
Things like if we only knew Christ the way
they do we wouldn't need a recovery program.

- - - -

From the moderator:

On Mexico, please, do a search on our message
board for the word "Mexico." We had literally
dozens of messages on this topic almost
exactly a year ago. See for example Messages
4168, 4161, 4157, 4154, 4150, 4149, 4132,
4131, 4115, 4114, 4093, etc.

I think everything useful that can be said
on this topic has already been said. But
Mike is right, this would be an example of
a major internal AA schism.

We should also remember that groups like
All Addictions Anonymous were essentially
groups which "seceded" from AA in the sense
of groups which got together to form their
own national organizations which were
separate from the New York GSO-centered
organization:

http://www.alladdictionsanonymous.com/

And if you look at the list of twelve step
groups at

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Twelve-Step_groups

Did these groups "secede" from AA? In part,
this is a matter of how you define the word
secede.

And how about Moderation Management's
nine step program?

http://www.moderation.org/

And Life Ring Secular Recovery?

http://www.unhooked.com/index.htm

It depends in part on how you define the
term "secede," since they were definitely
started by people who were unhappy with
at least some of the AA program, and
thought they had a better way of setting
up groups for recovery from alcoholism.

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

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++++Message 4883. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Groups looking to secede
From: terry walton . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/15/2008 10:24:00 AM

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Yes, it happens daily with a resentment and
a coffee pot.

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,
"dino" <lauraoshea@...> wrote:
>
> Was there ever a time in AA history where
> certain groups or factions made an effort to
> secede en masse?

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++++Message 4884. . . . . . . . . . . . Psychiatrists and the McNaghten Rule
From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/18/2008 8:05:00 AM

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It would not be the evidence of a psychiatrist
that would be dispositive as to whether a
defendant was sane. Determination of sanity
under McNaghten is, so far as I know, the
province of the jury deciding matters of fact,
and there were no psychiatrists nor any science
of psychiatry when McNaghten was first
established.

Of course psychiatric testimony would be heard
-- is heard -- but only as a part of the
process of determining whether the defendant
knew right from wrong, on which psychiatrists
may perhaps not be the most expert witnesses.

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++++Message 4885. . . . . . . . . . . . History info
From: mrpetesplace . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/17/2008 10:35:00 AM


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Locally we are having a workshop and I was
asked to participate. The theme is "Grassroots
of AA". So in preparation I'm trying to locate
a few items I saw in the past but can't seem
to find them anymore.

An AA Bulletin from November 14, 1940

Typed documents that I believed to be from NY
with meetings listed in various cities and
states including from North Carolina. These
were dated December 1941 and September 1942
I believe.

These were posted on a site called
archivesinternational.org at one time and
I had them bookmarked but the site is down
now.

The other item I'm looking for is a recording
from the mid 1940's. It is a video from a
"March of Times" series I believe. I've seen
several 'clips' but never the whole thing, I
figured it might be about 15-20 minutes long
but might be way off. I am hoping to find
these documents and video in by the first
week of April for our afternoon workshop.

Thank you in advance for any help.

Respectfully, Peter F.

<peter@aastuff.com> (peter at aastuff.com)

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++++Message 4886. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: They seem to have been born that
way
From: Jon Markle . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/16/2008 10:30:00 PM

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This one phrase from the Big Book has been a
bulwark for me.

I work as a clinician on a specialized team
which treats people who suffer from chronic,
cyclical, severe, persistent mental illness
and who have a long history of substance abuse
and/or addictions. Most of the patients I see
have been kicked out of AA meetings because
they cannot adapt to the expectations of the
groups they attempt. They are "constitution-
ally incapable" by most AA member's standards
and are not welcome at meetings.

By the same token, they also have been kicked
out of clinics and hospitals . . . in other
words, they are those that most of society has
given up on. They are homeless and hopeless
when they come to us.

I am happy to report that we have seen huge
successes, miracles, in people who have other-
wise been cast aside as hopeless. And we have
attributed part of that to networking with a
couple of local AA meetings over the years.
Many of my clients have been able to become
active and productively engaged in meetings
and home groups now.

If I can find even one little shred of
"honesty" -- no matter about what -- I know
that the miracle of recovery can happen.

Hugs for the trudge.

Jon (Raleigh)
9/9/82

On Feb 16, 2008, at 9:34 AM, corafinch wrote:

> --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,
> "nats_attitude" <nats_attitude@...> wrote:
>>
>> I was wondering if anyone can tell me what
>> the phrase "They are not at fault; they seem
>> to have been born that way" means in the
>> contextual form it was written in the fifth
>> chapter of the Big Book, "How It Works."
>>
>
> It depends on what you mean by context. For
> comparison, here is something form an article
> on alcoholism treatment which appeared in the
> July 1938 issue of Harper's. That places it
> close in time to the writing of the Big Book.
> The author, Genevieve Parkhurst, later wrote
> an article on AA for Harper's .
>
> "It would be misleading to claim that all
> forms of alcoholism may be healed by this or
> any other method. Some human beings are so
> naturally unequal to the conflicts of living
> that, in the light of present knowledge, little
> can be done for them except to protect them
> from the disturbing issues which cause them to
> drink. There are also the extreme cases, the
> psychotics whom alcohol has removed into the
> obscure recesses of the abnormal. Their cure
> is problematical and is the business of the
> psychiatrist and physician alone. For any
> layman to attempt to explain such cases would
> be dangerous; even the most distinguished
> medical scientists still disagree about them.
>

> "By far the greater number of heavy drinkers,
> however, belong in a class whose ailment can
> be more easily corrected. They are the men
> and women--we all know them--in whom the habit
> of excess has grown until their health, their
> business, their home life, and their peace of
> mind are in jeopardy. They are those whom the
> psychologist, Charles H. Durfee, who has been
> successful in healing them, mentions in his
> book To Drink or Not To Drink as "problem
> drinkers." For them there is more than an even
> chance of cure in a comparatively new kind of
> mental therapy now being practiced by trained
> psychologists who, through study and trial,
> have brought it to a high level of efficacy."
>
> The article later quotes Richard R. Peabody as
> a pathfinder in the field, who said that in his
> experience "seldom did a child whose parents
> maintained an intelligent attitude toward
> him mature into a drunkard." Evidently when
> Parkhurst used the expression "trained psycho-
> logists" she included some people who would be
> considered lay therapists and who were also
> known to the AA pioneers.
>
> Cora
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

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++++Message 4887. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: They seem to have been born that
way
From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/17/2008 10:48:00 AM

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This article, headed "Rarely Not Never",
appeared in the October 2007 issue of "Share",
the monthly magazine published by the UK
AA General Service Board:-

"Bristol Fashion" was a newsletter founded and
edited by members of the Bristol Newcomers AA
group (in Gloucestershire, England). This
extract is reprinted with grateful acknowledg-
ment.

"Bristol Fashion" is indebted to Nell Wing,
Bill W's non-alcoholic secretary and AA's
first archivist, for supplying observations
of our co-founder when questioned as to the
word "Rarely" in chapter five, "How It Works",
of the Big Book.

Excerpt from (Bill's) first letter: "Respecting
my use of the word 'rarely', I think it was
chosen because it did not express an absolute
state of affairs, such as 'never' does. Anyhow
we are certainly stuck with the word 'rarely'.
My few efforts to change the wording of the AA
book have always come to naught - the protests
are always too many."

In another letter Bill wrote: "Concerning your
comment about the use of the word 'rarely' in
chapter five of the Big Book. My recollection
is that we did give this considerable thought
at the time of writing. I think the main reason
for the use of the word 'rarely' was to avoid
anything that would look like a claim to a
100 per cent result. Assuming of course that
an alcoholic is sane enough and willing enough,
there can be a perfect score ... But since
willingness and sanity are such elusive and
fluctuating values, we simply didn't like to
be too positive. The medical profession would
jump right down our throats. Then, too, we have
seen people who apparently have tried their
very best, and then failed. Not because of
unwillingness, but perhaps by reason of
physical tension or some undisclosed quirk,
not known to them or anyone else. Neither did
we want to over-encourage relatives and friends
in the supposition that their dear ones could
surely get well in AA if only they were willing.
I think that's why we chose that word. I
remember thinking about it quite a lot. Maybe
some of these same reasons would apply to the
present conditions. Anyhow, I know this: the
text of the AA book is so frozen in the minds
of tens of thousands of AA's that even the
slightest change creates an uproar."

Nell Wing and Frank M., her successor as
archivist at GSO, New York, visited Britain
at "Bristol Fashion's" invitation in the
1990s. The newsletter ceased publication a
few years ago...

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++++Message 4888. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Groups looking to secede
From: Sober186@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/16/2008 6:06:00 PM

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Yes, I have heard several such reports. One
is contained in A.A. History, Hank Parkhurst
-- New York's A.A.#2. Unfortunately Hank went
back out and on a long bender.

Then, according to this history, "Soon Hank
went to Ohio and began spreading vicious tales
attacking Bill Wilson. Bill was grateful that
Dr. Bob and Anne Smith disbelieved his stories,
but many, especially Clarence Snyder and
Henrietta Seiberling (who had never liked Bill)
did believe Hank's tales. In Cleveland, some
started calling for Bill's exclusion from
Alcoholics Anonymous and even accused him of
financial trickery.

In New York, they began hearing about several
Cleveland groups that wanted to secede and
break off all connection with Bill Wilson's
brand of AA."

Source: http://www.barefootsworld.net/aany2hankp.html

While the word "secede" is difficult to find
in any literature, what happened between the
Akron contingent and those who formed a new
group in Cleveland, certainly has all the
earmarks of secession.

"A fellowship of anonymous drunks had in fact
existed prior to May 11, 1939. But it was the
Cleveland meeting which first used the name
Alcoholics Anonymous, that it took from the
book. Cleveland's May, 1939 meeting is the
first documented meeting which used the name
Alcoholics Anonymous, separate and apart from
the Oxford Group.

According to the records of the Cleveland
Central Committee's Recording Statistician,
Norman E. (which were compiled in the middle
of June 1942) the following took place:

On 5/10/39, nine members left the Akron
meeting of the Oxford Group to form the G.
group. The location of the group was 2345
Stillman Road, Cleveland Heights, Cleveland,
Ohio. The sponsors of the group were;
Clarence Snyder, Al G., Geo. J. McD., John D.,
Dr. Harry N., Lee L., Vaughn P., Chas. J.,
and Lloyd T. The first secretary of the group
was Clarence Snyder .... The first A.A.
meeting in the world was not uneventful.
According to Clarence, the entire group from
Akron showed up the next night and tried to
"discourage" the Cleveland meeting from
happening. Discourage was a very mild term,
according to Clarence; and he used it
sarcastically. He said: "The whole group
descended upon us and tried to break up our
meeting. One guy was gonna whip me. I want you
to know that this was all done in pure
Christian love. A.A. started in riots.
It rose in riots."

Source: http://silkworth.net/chs/chs05.html

Love and serve

Jim L.

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++++Message 4889. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: RE: They seem to have been born
that way
From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/18/2008 5:39:00 PM

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At 09:48 2/17/2008 , jenny andrews wrote:

>This article, headed "Rarely Not Never",
>appeared in the October 2007 issue of "Share",
>the monthly magazine published by the UK
>AA General Service Board:-
>

I would note that the same material was covered in an article in the
December 1978, Grapevine, titled "Rarely--or Never?"

It is available online at the Grapevine site. [Subscription required]

<http://www.aagrapevine.org/da/article.php?id=79179&tb=2ZGE9ZHQlM0ExOTc4XzEy
JnBnPTQ=>

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

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++++Message 4890. . . . . . . . . . . . God and Spirituality
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/18/2008 5:51:00 PM

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Glenn F. Chesnut, "God and Spirituality:
Philosophical Essays," January 2008, see
http://hindsfoot.org/philos.html

Full text of the book is now available on
line at http://hindsfoot.org/kperson1.html

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++++Message 4891. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Groups looking to secede
From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/18/2008 9:45:00 PM

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At 22:06 2/16/2008 , Sober186@aol.com wrote:
>
>On 5/10/39, nine members left the Akron
>meeting of the Oxford Group to form the G.
>group. The location of the group was 2345
>Stillman Road, Cleveland Heights, Cleveland,
>Ohio. The sponsors of the group were;
>Clarence Snyder, Al G., Geo. J. McD., John D.,
>Dr. Harry N., Lee L., Vaughn P., Chas. J.,
>and Lloyd T. The first secretary of the group
>was Clarence Snyder ....

All these names but Lloyd T are consistent
with names on the First 226 Members of the
Akron Group and have Cleveland addresses:

Al G Albert Goldrich
Chas J Charles Johns
Lee L Lee Loria
Geo. J. McD George McDermott
Dr. Harry N Dr. Harry Nash
Vaughn P Vaughn Phelps
Lloyd T not listed
Clarence Snyder

For me it helps establish the veracity of the list.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

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++++Message 4892. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr.''s Opinion
From: David LeBlanc . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/19/2008 12:01:00 AM

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In the Dr's opinion
in the Big book he
describes a patient
that accepted the ideas
in this book and
returned a year later a
changed man. In the
original letter the Dr.
identified the patient
as Bill W. Does anyone
know who made this
change and when?
David

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++++Message 4893. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Dr.''s Opinion
From: Jay Lawyer . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/19/2008 1:44:00 PM

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If I am not mistaken in this particular passage
the Doctor is/was talking about Henry Parkhurst.

Jay Lawyer <ejlawyer@midtel.net>

- - - -

Message 4892 from "David LeBlanc"
<Inkman3@webtv.net> (Inkman3 at webtv.net)

In the Dr's opinion in the Big book he
describes a patient that accepted the ideas
in this book and returned a year later a
changed man. In the original letter the Dr.
identified the patient as Bill W. Does anyone
know who made this change and when?
David

- - - -

From the moderator:

Yeah, this would have to be Hank Parkhurst.

I think David is getting Bill Wilson (who
is talked about on pages xxv and xxvii)
confused with the two people who appear
on page xxxi: Hank Parkhurst and Fitz Mayo.

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

THE DOCTOR'S OPINION (began on page 1 in the
first edition of the Big Book, begins on
page xxv in the present fourth edition)

(p. xxv-xxxii) the well known doctor was Dr.
William D. Silkworth, who worked at Towns
Hospital in New York City.

(p. xxv) the patient he regarded as hopeless
was Bill Wilson.

(p. xxvi) "We believe and so so suggested a
few years ago" in an article in the Lancet
in 1937.

(p. xxvii) "many years' experience" meant
nine years that Dr. Silkworth had been there.

(p. xxvii) "one of the leading contributors to
this book" referred to Bill Wilson.

(p. xxxi) the man brought in to be treated
for chronic alcoholism was Hank Parkhurst.
His story "The Unbeliever" appeared in the
1st ed.

(p. xxxi) the man who had hidden in a barn
was Fitz Mayo. His story in the BB is "Our
Southern Friend."

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++++Message 4894. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill W. on predators in AA
From: Roger K . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/19/2008 5:21:00 PM

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I have a group member who is looking for a
reference to "Predators in AA". Does anybody
know if Bill W. talked about emotional,
financial, sexual, etc. predators in AA with
a reference on dealing with same?

Roger K

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++++Message 4895. . . . . . . . . . . . Second Edition Big Book Codes
From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/19/2008 9:20:00 PM

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A new friend piqued my interest in the codes
that appear on the back flaps of the Second
Edition Big Book dust jackets [DJ].

I did some investigating and put together the
following incomplete table:

Code A.A. Membership,
Front Flap
1st
2nd
3rd 250k
4th 300k
5th 300k
6th 50M663 (C) 300k
7th 50M365 (C) 350k
8th 50M666 (C) 300k
9th 60M11/67 (C) 350K
10th 60M4/69 (C) 400k
11th 65M9/70 (C) 475k
12th 40M3/71 (C) 475k
13th 100M1/72 (C) 500k
14th 100M2/73 (C) 575k
15th 650k
16th

I have been told that there are no codes for
the first five and last two.

It has been suggested that the number preceding
the M in the code is the number in thousands
of books printed in that printing.

The numbers were gleaned from DJs in my collec-
tion plus info from friends. Unfortunately,
many of my DJs are facsimiles and don't have
the codes.

Is it accurate that just the 6th thru the
14th have codes?

Would someone provide the membership numbers
for the three printings missing them? Are
the other numbers correct?

Answers will be appreciated.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

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++++Message 4896. . . . . . . . . . . . Fulton Oursler
From: Peter Tippett . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/21/2008 5:49:00 PM

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Can anybody give me a "Reader's Digest" (no pun
intended) version of how Fulton Ourlser became
such an advocate of early AA and any influences
he may have had on AA?

Thanks,
Pete Tippett

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++++Message 4897. . . . . . . . . . . . Citadel
From: Gary Becktell . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/21/2008 4:28:00 AM

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Below is a paragraph from "Dr. Bob And the
Good Old-timers." What is the "Citadel"?

"The word got out that there were a bunch of
fools who wouldn't give you anything for food
or a bed, but they would give you some change
if you wanted a drink. They began to trust us,
and we got three fellows in the Citadel. It
so happened that the first one we got sober
was the son of a Salvation Army couple, and
they thought we were wonderful."

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++++Message 4898. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Member introduction and group
response
From: johnlaurance1 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/20/2008 6:21:00 PM

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--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,
"Michael G." <gildell@...> wrote:
>
> I can speak to the situation in the greater
> Boston area. Prior to the summer of 1976,
> individuals seldom would respond to an
> introduction in most groups.

In central Pennsylvania there was no response
to the introduction until the very early '80's.

Now, Overeaters Anonymous was another matter.
They were not only "Hi"-ing back, they were
requiring that members introduce themselves
over and over, complete with the return "Hi's"
every time they opened their mouths. I found
it really excessive and unnecessary.

> The Young
> People's international of 1976 in Philadelphia
> seemed to serve as a real "jump start" for
> the practice. Within a year of that conference,
> it was not uncommon to hear "Hi xxx" in
> response to an introduction at many groups
> in the Boston area.

Thank you. I didn't know that. In Pennsylvania
we were told it was "the California Style". We
were supposedly doing things the way they were
done in California.

> As I recall, when I was first sober in Chicago,
> and later in central Illinois in '73 - '75 no
> one would respond to an introduction by saying
> hi.

Ditto in Pennsylvania.

> Q. Can you describe something that's changed
> since you've been in A.A.?

There was no "ninety in ninety", since in those
days there weren't meetings every day.

No special things were done for newcomers. My
first meeting was step 6. I sat and listened.

By the early '80's if a newcomer came in, we'd
discuss step one. If a newcomer was doing
ninety in ninety and going to a meeting every
day, anyone else going to that same meeting
would be doing step one over and over and over.

Johnny L.

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++++Message 4899. . . . . . . . . . . . Re:Bill W. on predators in AA
From: Nicole . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/20/2008 6:44:00 PM

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Yes, page 69 which covers our sexual inventory.
If an alcoholic continues to harm others, then
we are sure to drink...this is our experience.

Nicole

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++++Message 4900. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr.''s Opinion
From: Sober186@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/20/2008 6:16:00 PM

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David:

An "Original Manuscript" of the Big Book is
sold in the gift shop at Dr. Bob's house in
Akron. The publication sold claims to be
"an exact reproduction of Clarence Snyder's"
(The Home Brewmeister's) copy of the manuscript
used to compile the Big Book.

By the way, in this Doctor's Opinion, there are
no names used. Even the doctor's name is not
used.

The doctor writes: "About four years ago,
one of the leading contributors to this book
came under our care in this hospital"......etc.
(Page 2, Paragraph 6.)

That is as close as it comes to naming any
names.

The doctor also describes what happened with a
man brought to the hospital who had been living
in a barn, and the says the man became "sold"
on the ideas in this book and did not have a
drink for three years. But again, there is no
name used. (Page 6, paragraph 6.)

Love and Serve

Jim L.

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++++Message 4901. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Citadel
From: James Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/22/2008 4:05:00 PM

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> Below is a paragraph from "Dr. Bob And the
> Good Old-timers." What is the "Citadel"?

Salvation Army building

Jim Blair

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++++Message 4902. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: 2nd Edition Printings
From: lqd8rflp@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/21/2008 12:28:00 PM

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Here is a complete listing of 2nd Edition
printings that came from Frank Mauser some
years ago.

PRINTING DATE COPIES MEMBERS GROUPS
1st 7/55 40,000 150,000 6,000
2nd 5/57 40,000 150,000 6,000
3rd 1959 40,000 250,000 7,000
4th 1960 40,000 300,000 8,000
5th 4/62 40,000 300,000 9,000
6th 6/63 50,000 300,000 10,000
7th 3/65 50,000 350,000 11,000
8th 6/66 50,000 350,000 12,000
9th 11/67 60,000 350,000 12,000
10th 4/69 60,000 425,000 14,000
11th 9/70 65,000 475,000 15,000
12th 3/71 40,000 475,000 15,000
13th 1/72 100,000 500,000 16,000
14th 2/73 100,000 575,000 18,000
15th 1973 150,000 575,000 18,000
16th 1974 150,000 725,000 22,000

Regards,
John

JOHN HAGER
CELL-317-504-7397
E-MAIL-LQD8RFLP@AOL.COM

- - - -

From: lester gother <lgother@optonline.net>
(lgother at optonline.net)

Tom
This is what I have to add from my collection The code for the 4th
printing is as follows: 50m-663(c) There is no code on the first 3
printings as they were published by A.A. Publishing Inc., and the 4th
printing was the first to be published by A.A. World Services, Inc. The
9th printing I have states 50m-11/67 (c), The rest I believe to be
correct. Hope this helps Tom.

Service
Lester Gother
Northern New Jersey

- - - -

From: DudleyDobinson@aol.com
(DudleyDobinson at aol.com)

Hi Tommy, I have a complete collection of?Second editions?with original DJ's
and
your list of Third through Fifteenth matches mine. The First & Second both
give
membership at 150,000 whilst the Sixteenth shows 725,000.
One point of interest: the Third printing had an error in stating that it
was
for the THIRD edition. Consequently the majority was sold with no DJ's and
One
with is a collector's item and very expensive.

In fellowship - Dudley

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++++Message 4903. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Citadel
From: Marsha Finley . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/21/2008 4:57:00 PM

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The Citadel is a military college in South
Carolina. It is also one the colleges con-
sidered an "Ivy league" of the South.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Citadel_(Military_College)

- - - -

-----Original Message-----

Below is a paragraph from "Dr. Bob And the
Good Old-timers." What is the "Citadel"?

"The word got out that there were a bunch of
fools who wouldn't give you anything for food
or a bed, but they would give you some change
if you wanted a drink. They began to trust us,
and we got three fellows in the Citadel. It
so happened that the first one we got sober
was the son of a Salvation Army couple, and
they thought we were wonderful."

- - - -

From the moderator:

The above passage is from page 248 in Dr. Bob
and the Good Oldtimers. It is describing
events in Cleveland, Ohio (not Charlestown,
South Carolina) in 1942.

It is describing how the early Cleveland AA's
started standing outside the Salvation Army
and giving people a nickle or a dime to buy
a drink or some cigarettes. They figured
they had to get people's trust first.

They finally got three men to trust them
enough to let them bring them into the Citadel
(the Salvation Army building), where the
good Salvation Army people could start
carrying out the sobering up process on
them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvation_Army_corps

"A Salvation Army corps is a church and place
of worship in The Salvation Army. In keeping
with Salvationist convention in using military
terminology, corps are casually known as
barracks. Many corps are additionally called
temples or citadels.

I was able to find a web page for the Akron,
Ohio, Salvation Army Citadel (with a photo of
the building) at:

http://www.use.salvationarmy.org/use/www_use_neo.nsf/ce952dea4507ee7780256cf
4005\

d2254/36a9553c9ae1b69280256e3900674c2b?OpenDocument [10]

But I was unable to find a photo of the
Cleveland, Ohio, Salvation Army Citadel. Maybe
somebody in Cleveland could tell us what its
address was back in 1942.

Anyway, they weren't taking these down and
out winos and bums and enrolling them in an
elite military college. They were talking
them into the Salvation Army building where
the Salvation Army folks could start
detoxing them.

Glenn C., South Bend, Indiana

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++++Message 4904. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W. on predators in AA
From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/22/2008 7:12:00 PM

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That's actually page 70.

-----Original Message-----

Yes, page 69 which covers our sexual inventory.
If an alcoholic continues to harm others, then
we are sure to drink...this is our experience.

Nicole

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++++Message 4905. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Bill W. on predators in AA
From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/23/2008 12:57:00 PM

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Dr Bob wrote "... we naturally have had our
share of those who fail to measure up to
certain obvious standards of conduct. They
have included schemers for personal gain,
petty swindlers and confidence men, crooks
of various kinds, and other human fallibles.
Relatively, their number has been small ...
yet they have been a problem and not an easy
one. They have caused many an AA to stop
thinking and working contructively for a time."

(Grapevine, September 1948, reprinted in
"Best of the Grapevine, volume 2).

- - - -

Original message:

I have a group member who is looking for a
reference to "Predators in AA". Does anybody
know if Bill W. talked about emotional,
financial, sexual, etc. predators in AA
with a reference on dealing with same?

Roger K

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++++Message 4906. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W. on predators in AA
From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/23/2008 4:56:00 PM

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There were people, believe it or not, whose
morals were bad and the respectable alcoholics
of that time shook their heads and said,
"surely these immoral people are going to
render us asunder." Little Red Riding Hood and
the bad wolves began to abound. Ah yes, could
our society last?

(Transcribed from tape. Chicago, Illinois,
February 1951).

I am sure that there are more references, but
I cannot find them at the moment.

- - - -

From the moderator: there is more about this
in Messages 50, 3562, 3568, and 3575.

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++++Message 4907. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Fulton Oursler
From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/24/2008 8:52:00 AM

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I don't know if this is helpful toward what
you are looking for but...

High Praise for the Charm
of Recovering Alcoholics

There are times when I wish I were an alcoholic.
I mean I wish I were a member of Alcoholics
Anonymous. The reason is that I consider the
AA people the most charming in the world.

Such is my considered opinion. As a journalist,
it has been my privilege to meet many people
who are considered charming. I number among my
friends stars and lesser lights on stage and
cinema; writers are my daily diet; I know
ladies and gentlemen of both political parties;
I have been entertained in the White House;
I've broken bread with kings, ambassadors and
ministers; and I say that I would prefer an
evening with my AA friends to any person I've
indicated.

I asked myself why I considered so charming
these alcoholic caterpillars who have found
their butterfly wings in AA. There are more
reasons than one, but I can name a few. The
AA people are what they are, and they are
what they were, because they are sensitive,
imaginative, possessed of a sense of humor,
an awareness of the universal truth. They are
sensitive, which means they are hurt easily,
and that helped them become alcoholics. But
when they found their restoration they are as
sensitive as ever; responsive to the beauty
and the truth and eager about the intangible
glories of this life. That makes them
charming companions.

They are possessed of a sense of universal
truth that is often new in their heart. This
fact that this at-one moment with God's universe
had never been awakened within them is the
reason they drink. They have found a power
greater than themselves, which they diligently
serve. And that gives them a charm that never
was elsewhere on the land and sea; it makes
you know that God is charming, because the AA
people reflect his mercy and forgiveness.

They are imaginative, and that helped make them
alcoholics. Some of them drank to flog their
imaginations onto greater efforts. Others
guzzled only to block out unendurable visions
that arose in their imaginations. But when
they found their restorations, their imagina-
tion is responsive to new incantations and
their talk abounds with color and might, and
that makes them charming companions, too.

They are possessed a sense of humor. Even in
their cups they have known to be damnably
funny. Often it was being forced to take
seriously the little and mean things of life
that made them seek their escape in the bottle.
But when they found their restoration, their
sense of humor finds a blessed freedom and they
are able to laugh at themselves, the very height
of self-conquest. Go to their meetings and
listen to their laughter. At what are they
laughing? At ghoulish memories over which
weaker souls would cringe in useless remorse.
And that makes them wonderful people to be with
by candlelight.

by Fulton Oursler

(Fulton Oursler was a magazine editor, religious
author, and Hollywood screenwriter, and was an
early Oxford Group member and friend to AA. He
passed away in the year 1952. His official
relationship with AA is as follows: Sept. 30,
1939, the very popular weekly Liberty Magazine,
headed by Fulton Oursler, carried a piece
titled "Alcoholics and God" by Morris Markey
(who was influenced to write the article by
Charles Towns). It generated about 800
inquiries from around the nation. Oursler
(author of The Greatest Story Ever Told) became
good friends with Bill W and later served as a
Trustee and member of the Grapevine editorial
board. In Oct. 1949, Dr. William D. Silkworth
and Fulton Oursler joined the Alcoholic
Foundation Board.)

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++++Message 4908. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Sybil C. & Tex
From: Alex H. . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/25/2008 2:09:00 PM

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> HI .. I have a good friend in Sybils daughter.
> I have been sending her copies of the informa-
> tion in here about her mother.

FYI, Sybil's husband, Bob C., is still alive.
My buddy, Matt M., tells me Bob's health has
been failing. Bob is still sponsoring Matt so
to speak. It seems like Matt is helping Bob
more than Bob is helping Matt though.

They were an amazing couple as Matt tells it.
Matt is somewhat amazing himself but don't
tell him I said so. :-)

Alex H.

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++++Message 4909. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: RE: Citadel
From: John Lee . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/25/2008 8:45:00 PM

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Glenn,

No such place as Charlestown, South Carolina.
The historic city which hosts The Citadel is
Charleston.

john lee

- - - -

Sorry, y'all.

Glenn

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++++Message 4910. . . . . . . . . . . . Photograph of AA people wearing Lone
Ranger masks
From: wsmaugham21 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/24/2008 12:07:00 PM

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Hello fellow Drunks!

Anyone out there have information on the photo
of the AA folks wearing Lone Ranger Masks, and
a web site where I might be able to get a copy
of it?

Love and Service, Dirk

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++++Message 4911. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Photograph of AA people wearing
Lone Ranger masks
From: Jonathan Rose . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/25/2008 9:28:00 PM

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From the moderator: there are apparently at
least two such photos, one showing some AA
members in Dayton, Ohio, and another showing
some AA members in Madison, Wisconsin. And
there was also apparently a third case where
masks like this were worn, for a television
show in Detroit, Michigan, in the 1950's.

- - - -

From: "jbuckrose" <jbuckrose1@mac.com>
(jbuckrose1 at mac.com)

Here's what you might be looking for. The web
source is:

http://www.texasdistrict5.com/history-in-photos.htm

The photo is about halfway down the webpage,
with the caption underneath:

"Dayton OH Members, 1942
Members wore masks: to protect their anonymity,
members of the Dayton, Ohio, AA chapter donned
masks while posing for the press in 1942."

in service,
Buck R.

- - - -

From: "Robert Stonebraker"
<rstonebraker212@insightbb.com>
(rstonebraker212 at insightbb.com)

One source is the "Archives Scrapbook - 1939
to 1942." There is a large picture of
Madison, Wisconsin, AAs wearing masks. This
huge, rather pricey, scrapbook ($75) makes
a wonderful display feature.

GSO Service material #M42, on page 8.

Bob S.

PS - I have seen a similar picture from Dayton,
Ohio.

- - - -

From: "JOHN WIKELIUS" <nov85@graceba.net>
(nov85 at graceba.net)

GSO sells two different scrapbooks of very old
news releases and I believe that you will find
those pictures in there.

- - - -

From: David Jones <jonesd926@aol.com>
(jonesd926 at aol.com)

I have this from the site silkworth.net ...
alas no photo.

*VI. Mr. Hope TV Show*

In the 1950's WWJ telecast a TV program called
"MR. HOPE" in which AA members appeared wearing
Lone Ranger masks who told their stories. The
masks were worn to protect their identities.
The program aired at noon on Sundays.

One of our current members (1998), Bill B., was
on the show a couple of times along with the
Police Commissioner and some Judges.

God bless
Dave

- - - -

From: Glenn C. <glennccc@sbcglobal.net>
(glennccc at sbcglobal.net)

http://www.hindsfoot.org/detr0.html on early
Detroit AA history:

RADIO PROGRAM

On March 5, 1945, Time magazine reported that
Detroit's WWJ radio station was running broad-
casts by AA members in a radio program called
"The Glass Crutch":

Alcoholics on the Air
Time, March 5, 1945

One of Detroit's citizens stepped up to the
microphone one night last week and told how he
had "hit bottom" as an alcoholic. To underline
his confession, some of the more melodramatic
and sordid aspects of his past were dramatized.
Then he told of his regeneration. Summed up
the Announcer: "Alcoholism is a disease ...
an obsession ... an allergy ... " The man who
"hit bottom" was the first in a parade of
anonymous Detroiters who will describe their
alcoholic pasts over WWJ every Saturday
(11:15-11:30 p.m. E.W.T.). The series is the
first sustained air flight of the famed orga-
nization called "Alcoholics Anonymous" (Time,
Oct. 23, 1944). Detroit AA's give credit for
the broadcast project to 62-year-old William
Edmund Scripps, big boss of the Detroit News
and WWJ. He was so impressed by AA's reform-
ation of a drunkard friend that he decided to
do what he could to boost the organization's
Detroit membership (now nearly 400).

THE MR. HOPE TV SHOW

In the 1950's WWJ telecast a TV program called
"Mr. Hope," aired at noon on Sundays, in which
AA members appeared wearing Lone Ranger masks
and told their stories. The masks were worn to
protect their identities.

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++++Message 4912. . . . . . . . . . . . Introduction as alcoholic and group
response
From: grault . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/28/2008 6:11:00 AM

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Thanks all. Responses vary widely, depending
on area of the country. In some areas the
identification "I'm xxx and I'm an alcoholic"
didn't arise until the 1960s or even more
recently, and the response "Hi, xxx" came later,
in the 70s or 80s. At the other extreme,
apparently in Quebec both the intro and the
group's response were universal at meetings as
early as the early 1950s.

Gerry R.
New Orleans

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++++Message 4914. . . . . . . . . . . . Seeking volunteers to help with AA
history search engine
From: George Ewing . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/7/2008 10:21:00 AM

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I've been a lurking member of this list for a couple
of years now. This is my first post, I think, in that
time.

I'm the webmaster of malverncenter.org, an AA
clubhouse in Malvern, PA. We are in the Philadelphia
suburbs and are blessed with a wide range of AA
meetings of all kinds. Our site gets a lot of traffic,
mostly from people looking for meeting times, as well
as phone numbers of treatment facilities and the like.

Because of this traffic, I've been trying to add
content to the site that is of a general nature about
AA, above and beyond meeting times. I've added a
Google Custom Search Engine that is dedicated to the
history of AA. Think of it as an invitation to search
terms specific to AA history.

Google allows me to solicit volunteers to contribute
to the search engine by adding relevant sites to its
results, and by labeling certain results with
appropriate comments. The volunteer is like a curator
of the search results.

If anyone is interested in contributing to the custom
search on our site, please email me off list at
facilities at malverncenter.org. Thank in advance for
any volunteers.

George

George Ewing <gedit123@yahoo.com> (gedit123 at yahoo.com)

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++++Message 4915. . . . . . . . . . . . Little Red Book
From: pbers_11 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/10/2008 4:36:00 PM

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I am looking for actual resources of the use
of the Little Red book in early years. I have
seen on the Web that "the AA foundation appoved
of its use" and I am trying to find resources
to support this.

Thank you

Yours in Service

Paula D

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++++Message 4916. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Little Red Book
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/11/2008 4:12:00 PM

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The Little Red Book was published by "the
Coll-Webb Co.," which meant that Barry Collins
(an important early figure in Minneapolis
A.A., who had gotten sober in A.A. on April
14, 1941) and Ed Webster were paying for
publishing it themselves. They were fellow
members of the Nicollet Group in Minneapolis.

A letter from Bobby Burger, the secretary at
the New York A.A. headquarters (then called
the Alcoholic Foundation), dated November 11,
1944, written to Barry Collins in Minneapolis,
gives their full approval to the idea of
Minneapolis publishing and using an A.A.
pamphlet or booklet which the Minneapolis
A.A. people had written themselves:

"Dear Barry:
. . . The Washington D.C. pamphlet and the
new Cleveland 'Sponsorship' pamphlet and a
host of others are all local projects. We do
not actually approve or disapprove of these
local pieces; by that I mean that the Founda-
tion feels each Group is entitled to write up
its own 'can opener' and let it stand on its
own merits. All of them have good points and
very few have caused any controversy. But as
in all things of a local nature, we keep hands
off, either pro or con. I think there must be
at least 25 local pamphlets now being used
and I've yet to see one that hasn't had some
good points. I think it is up to each indivi-
dual Group whether it wants to use and buy
these pamphlets from the Group that puts
them out.
Sincerely, Bobby (Margaret R. Burger)"

When The Little Red Book did come out, its use
in A.A. meetings had the full approval both
of Dr. Bob and the New York A.A. office. Dr.
Bob actually helped Ed Webster write it, as
we have already noted, but in addition, Jack
H. (Scottsdale AZ) has discovered from Ed
Webster's papers that Dr. Bob was sending
large numbers of copies of The Little Red
Book to A.A. groups in other parts of the
country. Jack H. has also discovered from Ed
Webster's papers that in the late 1940's, the
New York A.A. office was regularly ordering
quantities of The Little Red Book for resale
in New York.

Bill W. wrote Barry Collins about the
Minneapolis book in November 1950:

"The Little Red Book does fill a definite
need and has wide circulation. Therefore,
its usefulness is unquestioned. AA has a
definite place for such a book. Someday I
may try to write an introduction book myself
which I hope might complement favorably with
The Little Red Book. Here at the Foundation
we are not policemen; we're a service and
AAs are free to read any book they choose."
____________________

SOURCE: http://hindsfoot.org/ed01.html

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++++Message 4917. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Little Red Book
From: pbers_11 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/11/2008 4:26:00 PM

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In what resources have you found this data?

- - - -

Please read all of the article that was cited:

http://hindsfoot.org/ed01.html

Down towards the bottom it says:

"Bill Pittman, in the introduction to the
Hazelden Anniversary Edition (the reprinting
in 1996 of the 1949 edition of The Little Red
Book), gave the text of Bobby Burger's letter."

Jack H. (Scottsdale, Arizona) contacted the
New York AA Archives and discovered that Bill
Pittman had added one phrase to the letter
without indicating that he had added it:

"as is Nicollet’s 'An Interpretation
of the Twelve Steps'"

The version given on the Hindsfoot site is
the letter as Jack H. found it to be in the
New York AA Archives.

There is more about the Pittman Anniversary
Edition at:

http://hindsfoot.org/ed02.html
____________________

The other sources of this information:

Jack H. got Ed Webster's papers from Ed's
daughter, so much of the other information
comes from letters and billing information
and other documents in those papers: i.e.,
records of repeated orders from the New York
AA office for another box of copies of The
Little Red Book. Jack also has copies of
various editions of The Little Red Book with
handwritten suggestions from Dr. Bob for
rewording sentences or adding additional
comments. Jack H. also made a detailed
study of the Minneapolis AA archives, with
the help of a very good AA archivist there.

The text of the Bill W. letter about The
Little Red Book is also given in the Pittman
Anniversary Edition.

- - - -

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Glenn
Chesnut <glennccc@...> wrote:
>
> The Little Red Book was published by "the
> Coll-Webb Co.," which meant that Barry Collins
> (an important early figure in Minneapolis
> A.A., who had gotten sober in A.A. on April
> 14, 1941) and Ed Webster were paying for
> publishing it themselves. They were fellow
> members of the Nicollet Group in Minneapolis.
>
> A letter from Bobby Burger, the secretary at
> the New York A.A. headquarters (then called
> the Alcoholic Foundation), dated November 11,
> 1944, written to Barry Collins in Minneapolis,
> gives their full approval to the idea of
> Minneapolis publishing and using an A.A.
> pamphlet or booklet which the Minneapolis
> A.A. people had written themselves:
>
> "Dear Barry:
> . . . The Washington D.C. pamphlet and the
> new Cleveland 'Sponsorship' pamphlet and a
> host of others are all local projects. We do
> not actually approve or disapprove of these
> local pieces; by that I mean that the Founda-
> tion feels each Group is entitled to write up
> its own 'can opener' and let it stand on its
> own merits. All of them have good points and
> very few have caused any controversy. But as
> in all things of a local nature, we keep hands
> off, either pro or con. I think there must be
> at least 25 local pamphlets now being used
> and I've yet to see one that hasn't had some
> good points. I think it is up to each indivi-
> dual Group whether it wants to use and buy
> these pamphlets from the Group that puts
> them out.
> Sincerely, Bobby (Margaret R. Burger)"
>
> When The Little Red Book did come out, its use
> in A.A. meetings had the full approval both
> of Dr. Bob and the New York A.A. office. Dr.
> Bob actually helped Ed Webster write it, as
> we have already noted, but in addition, Jack
> H. (Scottsdale AZ) has discovered from Ed
> Webster's papers that Dr. Bob was sending
> large numbers of copies of The Little Red
> Book to A.A. groups in other parts of the
> country. Jack H. has also discovered from Ed
> Webster's papers that in the late 1940's, the
> New York A.A. office was regularly ordering
> quantities of The Little Red Book for resale
> in New York.
>
> Bill W. wrote Barry Collins about the
> Minneapolis book in November 1950:
>
> "The Little Red Book does fill a definite
> need and has wide circulation. Therefore,
> its usefulness is unquestioned. AA has a
> definite place for such a book. Someday I
> may try to write an introduction book myself
> which I hope might complement favorably with
> The Little Red Book. Here at the Foundation
> we are not policemen; we're a service and
> AAs are free to read any book they choose."
> ____________________
>
> SOURCE: http://hindsfoot.org/ed01.html
>

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++++Message 4918. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Little Red Book
From: Arthur Sheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/11/2008 6:47:00 PM

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There is an inconsistency here. Margaret R
Burger (AA's second National Secretary)
signed herself as "Bobbie" not "Bobby."

If there is a letter from her signed "Bobby"
it might not be genuine. I have a substantial
set of correspondence between her and Esther
E of Dallas. They are all signed "Bobbie."

Cheers
Arthur

- - - -

Arthur,

We need somebody to check the New York AA
Archives on BOTH of the letters which
Bill Pittman reproduced in the 1996
Hazelden Anniversary Edition of The Little
Red Book.

Bill Pittman said on the copyright page
that this was the:

"50th Anniversary edition 1996
(from 1946 edition published by
Coll-Webb Company, Minneapolis)"

but Jack H. (Scottsdale, Arizona) showed
that it was a reproduction of the 1949
edition, NOT the 1946 edition as Bill
Pittman claimed.

I have verified this by comparison with
a photocopy of the 1946 edition which
I was sent. See:

http://hindsfoot.org/ed02.html

Jack H. told me over the telephone that
he had checked with one of the archivists
at the New York AA Archives (also over the
telephone) and had discovered that Bill
Pittman had also inserted a phrase into
the Burger letter that was not in the
original:

"as is Nicollet's 'An Interpretation
of the Twelve Steps.'"

But the New York archivist reading the
original letter over the phone to Jack H.
would have pronounced "Bobby" and "Bobbie"
identically, so there would have been no
reason for Jack to have caught that.

Anyway, we KNOW that Bill Pittman was very
careless indeed in his preparation of
that anniversary edition.

The Foreword which Bill wrote runs from
page vii to page xviii.

The Burger letter is reproduced on pages
xiii-xiv. The Bill Wilson letter is on
pages xvi-xvii.

Again, someone with access to the New York
AA Archives needs to check the original
letters to make sure that we have accurate
copies to work from.

More than that, we need a good AA historian
to do a book on Ed Webster, somebody who
will take the time and care to check all
the documents out, and do a good scholarly
job.

At this point, I am committed to finishing
my book on Richmond Walker, the author of
the Twenty-Four book, and would not be able
to take on that additional task.

But Ed Webster was very important to the
fellowship, and very much deserves to have
a book written about him.

Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana)

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Glenn Chesnut
Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2008 3:12 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers group
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Little Red Book

The Little Red Book was published by "the
Coll-Webb Co.," which meant that Barry Collins
(an important early figure in Minneapolis
A.A., who had gotten sober in A.A. on April
14, 1941) and Ed Webster were paying for
publishing it themselves. They were fellow
members of the Nicollet Group in Minneapolis.

A letter from Bobby Burger, the secretary at
the New York A.A. headquarters (then called
the Alcoholic Foundation), dated November 11,
1944, written to Barry Collins in Minneapolis,
gives their full approval to the idea of
Minneapolis publishing and using an A.A.
pamphlet or booklet which the Minneapolis
A.A. people had written themselves:

"Dear Barry:
. . . The Washington D.C. pamphlet and the
new Cleveland 'Sponsorship' pamphlet and a
host of others are all local projects. We do
not actually approve or disapprove of these
local pieces; by that I mean that the Founda-
tion feels each Group is entitled to write up
its own 'can opener' and let it stand on its
own merits. All of them have good points and
very few have caused any controversy. But as
in all things of a local nature, we keep hands
off, either pro or con. I think there must be
at least 25 local pamphlets now being used
and I've yet to see one that hasn't had some
good points. I think it is up to each indivi-
dual Group whether it wants to use and buy
these pamphlets from the Group that puts
them out.
Sincerely, Bobby (Margaret R. Burger)"

When The Little Red Book did come out, its use
in A.A. meetings had the full approval both
of Dr. Bob and the New York A.A. office. Dr.
Bob actually helped Ed Webster write it, as
we have already noted, but in addition, Jack
H. (Scottsdale AZ) has discovered from Ed
Webster's papers that Dr. Bob was sending
large numbers of copies of The Little Red
Book to A.A. groups in other parts of the
country. Jack H. has also discovered from Ed
Webster's papers that in the late 1940's, the
New York A.A. office was regularly ordering
quantities of The Little Red Book for resale
in New York.

Bill W. wrote Barry Collins about the
Minneapolis book in November 1950:

"The Little Red Book does fill a definite
need and has wide circulation. Therefore,
its usefulness is unquestioned. AA has a
definite place for such a book. Someday I
may try to write an introduction book myself
which I hope might complement favorably with
The Little Red Book. Here at the Foundation
we are not policemen; we're a service and
AAs are free to read any book they choose."
____________________

SOURCE: http://hindsfoot.org/ed01.html

Yahoo! Groups Links

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++++Message 4919. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Little Red Book
From: Lynn Sawyer . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/11/2008 8:17:00 PM

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Lynn Sawyer <sawyer7952@yahoo.com>
(sawyer7952 at yahoo.com)

Hi.

Lynn Sawyer here, from Sacramento, California
now, but originally from Minneapolis,
Minnesota area. I got sober on the Little
Red Book and other A.A. literature.

I didn't realize the Little Red Book was a
local [Minneapolis] publication. Thanks
again for your wealth of information for us
alkies.

Lynn

- - - -

From: "Don Cobb" <don@doncobb.com>
(don at doncobb.com)

I remember when some of our local AAers were
ADAMANT about 15 years ago, that we were NOT
to support "a private company" by buying it.
It was frowned on big time and in fact,
people were outright confrontational about
it, openly and angrily so.

So it's interesting to me to see that Dr. Bob
approved it.

Don C.

- - - -

From Glenn C. <glennccc@sbcglobal.net>
(glennccc at sbcglobal.net)

Jack H. (who has Ed Webster's papers) says
that after Ed's death in 1971, his widow
transferred the rights to The Little Red
Book to Hazelden, to make sure the book
stayed in print.

Looking at the copyright pages of old
copies of The Little Red Book, it looks
like the transfer could have taken place
a little earlier (i.e. before 1971), but
Hazelden has always been careless about
the dates they put down for the copyright
date of their editions of early AA books.

But as you note, in the early years, The
Little Red Book was published in Minneapolis
by Ed Webster and Barry Collins, under
the sponsorship of the Nicollet Group in
that city.

Glenn C.

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++++Message 4920. . . . . . . . . . . . Background on Concept 4
From: Joseph Tandl . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/12/2008 11:18:00 PM

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Friends,

I have been asked to write a short article
(i.e. 300 words) for an AA Area newsletter on
Concept 4. Googling and searching this list's
archive revealed only the illustrated brochure
on the 12 concepts.

I would be grateful for pointers to informa-
tion about the history of and reason for
this particular concept and anything that
would make writing about it informative and
memorable.

Thanks, Joseph
Canberra, Australia

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++++Message 4921. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Background on Concept 4
From: Dolores . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/13/2008 5:27:00 PM

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Hi, I found 2 Grapevine articles on the
Concepts. One is from January, 1995 and the
article is called "The mystery of the secret
12 (Concepts)" and the other one from January
1993, " Does your group use the Concepts?"

Nell Wings book "Glad to have been there"
also has a Chapter on the Concepts.

I have been very interested in the Concepts
too and Find them very important for service
work. The Concepts carry Bill W. signature.

Yours in AA

Dolores - Archives Continetal EuropeanRegion

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++++Message 4922. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr. Percy Poliak
From: Lance . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/15/2008 4:04:00 PM

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Hi group!

Does anyone have any info on Dr. Percy Poliak?

He gave the "2nd Doctor's Opinion" in the Big
Book in Chapt. 3, "More About Alcoholism,"
page 43. (It is only one paragraph long!)

Thanks, and God's blessings!

Lance, from colorful Colorado!

- - - -

From the moderator: for additional background,
see

http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/BBWhoWhat.htm

http://www.justloveaudio.com/resources/Assorted/Big_Book_Name_and_Date_Refer
ence\

s.pdf [11]

page 43: staff member world renowned hospital
was Dr. Percy Poliak at Bellevue Hospital,
New York

page 43: "two of you men, whose stories I
have heard," unknown.

Dr. Percy Poliak -- San Francisco psychiatrist
was with Bellevue Hospital New York then
San Francisco Country Hospital, impressed
with A.A., gave A.A. group full support
(Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age page 88)

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++++Message 4923. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Little Red Book
From: Bruce A. Johanson . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/12/2008 7:50:00 PM

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I also found God in Minneapolis (though I
heard he is throughout the world hee hee)
with the Little Red Book many years ago.

That and Stools and Bottles is mostly what we
used for literature while Big Books gathered
dust on the shelves. That is sometimes seen
as rather blasphemous these days.

What amazed me was finding out about "The
Nicollet Group" long after I had moved from
Minneapolis. I and a few friends used to
visit different groups once a week never
hearing a word about this group. I have
heard they are listed now with the Minne-
apolis Intergroup.

Bruce

- - - -

NOTE: In Minneapolis, Minnesota, Ed Webster
published "The Little Red Book" in 1946 under
the sponsorship of the Nicollet Group. Ed
also wrote "Stools and Bottles" (1955),
"Barroom Reveries" (1958), and "Our Devilish
Alcoholic Personalities" (in 1970, just a
year before his death). In early A.A., Ed was
one of the four most widely read A.A. authors.

- - - -

FROM: "bob" <bsdds@comcast.net>
(bsdds at comcast.net)

It is amazing to me the passion which so many
grasp onto the idea of "conference approved
literature." In my early sobriety I was living
in the "pink cloud" for many years and it has
only been in my retirement that I have become
fascinated with the history and the HUMANNESS
of these men and women.

Learning of the travails of the founders and
the huge part that people like Henry Parkhurst
played makes this thing so much more real. I
could never go to a movie based on this site
and enjoy it as much as I do reading and
"listening" to y'alls discussions.

Thanks for the Warmth.

bob s
goin' on 32

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++++Message 4924. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Little Red Book
From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/12/2008 8:59:00 PM

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>
> >From Glenn C. <glennccc@sbcglobal.net>
>(glennccc at sbcglobal.net)
>
>Jack H. (who has Ed Webster's papers) says
>that after Ed's death in 1971, his widow
>transferred the rights to The Little Red
>Book to Hazelden, to make sure the book
>stayed in print.
>
>Looking at the copyright pages of old
>copies of The Little Red Book, it looks
>like the transfer could have taken place
>a little earlier (i.e. before 1971), but
>Hazelden has always been careless about
>the dates they put down for the copyright
>date of their editions of early AA books.
>
>But as you note, in the early years, The
>Little Red Book was published in Minneapolis
>by Ed Webster and Barry Collins, under
>the sponsorship of the Nicollet Group in
>that city.
>
>Glenn C.
>

The first Hazelden publication of the Little
Red Book was some time in the 1960s and was
as best I can tell the little volume with
rounded corners. As Glenn points out,
Hazelden was not good at putting useful
information on printing and copyrights in
these early books.

This printing has a 1957 copyright by
Coll-Webb but has the Hazelden logo and
address [Central City, Minn 55012] on the
full title page. The use of a zip code
indicates the date was 1963 or later.

There are seven different small format LRBs
with the 1957 copyright. I believe the
rounded corner one was the first as Hazelden
started publishing two other books around the
same time and the first ones of these series
had rounded corners, Richmond Walker's 24
Hours a Day book and Stools and Bottles. No
copyrights are indicated in the 24 Hour book
and there are at least two printings w/o zip
codes and four with zips. The rounded corner
S&B has a 1955 copyright held by Coll-Webb.

The Hazelden logo started appearing in the
larger format, Coll-Webb printings of the
LRB in the form of a sticker on the full
title page starting with the twenty-second
printing in 1968, so it may be that the LRB
was turned over to Hazelden prior to Webster's
death in 1971, not that it makes any difference
to anyone but we collectors. The 23rd thru
25th printings had the Hazelden logo printed
on the full title page.

ISBNs were used in some of the latter LRBs
but not in the rounded corner 24 Hour books
that I know of. I believe ISBNs started in
1968.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

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++++Message 4925. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Background on Concept 4
From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/15/2008 8:59:00 AM

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Joseph Tandl (Canberra, Australia) wrote:
>
> I have been asked to write a short article
> (i.e. 300 words) for an AA Area newsletter on
> Concept 4. Googling and searching this list's
> archive revealed only the illustrated brochure
> on the 12 concepts.
>
> I would be grateful for pointers to informa-
> tion about the history of and reason for
> this particular concept and anything that
> would make writing about it informative and
> memorable.

- - - -

From: Bill Lash <barefootbill@optonline.net>
(barefootbill at optonline.net)

Please go to http://www.justloveaudio.com
and click on "free resources". There is
a lot of info on the 12 Concepts & the 12
Traditions. It also has a large amount of
info/exercises/guides on all of the 12 Steps
too. Peace.

Just Love,
Barefoot Bill

- - - -

From: "Debi Ubernosky" <dkuber1990@verizon.net>
(dkuber1990 at verizon.net)

Dear friend,

All of the Concepts are in the AA Service
Manual, which you can download from the AA
website at

http://www.aa.org/en_services_for_members.cfm?PageID=101.

Happy reading!

Debi Ubernosky (service crazy alkie!)
DOS: 11-25-1990
by God's grace and because AA works!

Wait, my apologies, I should have referenced
the service material that is on Australia's
AA website:
http://www.aa.org.au/members/index.php?nav=mb

Here's the link to Australia's AA Service Manual:
http://www.aa.org.au/materials/materials_service_manual.php?nav=mb

Here's a diagram of your service structure:
http://www.aa.org.au/materials/materials_national_structure.php

Your local DCM or Area Delegate would be a
wonderful resource to get some personal input
on the Concepts.

Enjoy!

Debi

- - - -

From: Hugh Hyatt <hughhyatt@bluehen.udel.edu>
(hughhyatt at bluehen.udel.edu)

I've found the A.A. Grapevine Digital Archive
to be great too for finding information on
such topics: http://www.aagrapevine.org/da/

- - - -

From: "Lee Nickerson" <snowlily@megalink.net>

I have been active in Service at the Area Level and Central
Office for most of my sobriety. Especially at Central Office, I found
that a knowledge of the Concepts was an essential tool. Invaluable,
is a better way to say it. They are certainly a lesson in our history
and are as relevant today as when they were written. Bill's struggles
to have them become a part of us is also a fascinating story.

The Concepts have guided us over many threatening issues and
controversies since their creation. As I read through them I am ever
reminded of Bill's great visionary gift and where that gift came
from. Whenever I am asked to speak about them I never fail to remind
the listeners to read Bill's Essay on Leadership: to me, one of the
finest guides to being an AA leader (or a leader anywhere) that has
ever been written. It is so simple, so direct and so useable.

The Concepts can be used anywhere in the AA service structure,
from the Group to the Conference. The idea that we all have a voice,
the premise that we just must make decisions, the guidance that we
can't expect someone to take a responsibility in AA without
concurrently handing them a certain authority - all these things are
applicable at any level of Alcoholics Anonymous. A thorough knowledge
of the Concepts has given me the precious gift of being able to
survive and appreciate some of the volatile and controversial
decision made at the General Service Office, the Conference, and even
at my Home Group. It is my belief that if all of us had a first-hand
grasp of them, our grasp on our history and our AA Service life would
be easier and more fruitful.

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++++Message 4926. . . . . . . . . . . . Lee T''s Foreword to Chuck C., "A
New Pair of Glasses"
From: kcb007_99 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/16/2008 1:08:00 AM

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What can anyone tell me about "Lee T." who
wrote a Foreword to "A New Pair of Glasses"
by Chuck C.?

Any background information you have about
"Lee T." and his writing of a Foreword in
Chuck C.'s book would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance for any help you can give.

- - - -

From the moderator: I assume you have seen
Message 139 from Nancy Olson

"Chuck Chamberlain's Testimony Before a U.S.
Senate Subcommittee, 1969"

Chuck Chamberlain: was born in 1902, and got
sober in A.A. in January 1946. He wrote a
book called "A New Pair Of Glasses" which
is a transcript of a retreat he gave for
alcoholics in 1975. The Preface is written
by Clancy I. of California. It can be

purchased through New-Look Publishing Co.,
1960 Fairchild, Irvine, California 92715.
His son [Richard] became a famous actor.
Chuck died in 1984.

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++++Message 4927. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill W''s Proposal For 12 Concepts
For World Service
From: James Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/15/2008 4:17:00 PM

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Proposal by Bill W. For Twelve Concepts
For World Service

10th General Service Conference – 1960

This proposal, delivered by Bill W. at the closing of the 10th General
Service
Conference is of great historical significance as it was the first time that
Bill had spoken to the Fellowship on the subject of the Twelve Concepts.

The original transcript has been retyped for clarity and has been verified
against the voice recording.

-------------------------------------------

The last of the sand in the hourglass of our time together is about to run
its
course. And you have asked me, as of old, to conclude this conference, our
tenth.

I always approach this hour with mixed feelings. As time has past, each year
succeeding itself, I have found increasing gratitude beyond measure, because
of
the increasing sureness that A.A. is safe at last for God, so long as he may
wish this society to endure.

So I stand here among you and feel as you do a sense of security and
gratitude
such as we have never known before. There is not a little regret, too, that
the
other side of the coin -— that we cannot turn back the clock and renew
these
hours. Soon they will become a part of our history.

The three legacies of A.A. -- recovery, unity and service -- in a sense
represent three utter impossibilities, impossibilities that we know became
possible, and possibilities that now have borne this unbelievable fruit. Old
Fitzmayo, one of the early A.A.”s and I visited the Surgeon General of the
United States in the third year of this society, told him of our beginnings.
He
was a gentle man, Dr. Lawrence Kolb, since become a great friend of A.A.,
and he
said: ”I wish you well. Even the sobriety of such a few is almost a
miracle. The
government knows that this is one of the greatest health problems we have,
one
of the greatest moral problems, one of the greatest spiritual problems. But
we
here have considered recovery of alcoholics so impossible that we have given
up
and have instead concluded that rehabilitation of narcotic addicts would be
the
easier job to tackle.”

Such was the devastating impossibility of our situation.

Now, what had been brought to bear upon this impossibility that it has
become
possible? First, the Grace of Him who presides over all of us. Next, the
cruel
lash of John Barleycorn who said, “This you must do, or die.” Next, the
intervention of God through friends, at first a few, and now legion, who
opened
to us, who in the early days were uncommitted, the whole field of human
ideas,
morality and religion, from which we could choose.

These have been the wellsprings of the forces and ideas and emotions and
spirit
which were first fused into our Twelve Steps for recovery. And some of us
got
well. But no sooner had a few got sober then the old forces began to come
into
play. In us rather frail people, they were fearsome: the old forces, the
drives,
money, acclaim, prestige.

Would these tear us apart? Besides, we came from every walk of life. Early,
we
had begun to be a cross section of all men and women, all differently
conditioned, all so different and yet happily so alike in our kinship of
suffering. Could we hold in unity? To those few who remain who lived in
those
earlier times when the Traditions were being forged in the school of hard
experience on its thousands of anvils, we had our very, very dark moments.

It was sure recovery was in sight, but how could there be recovery for many?
Or
how could recovery endure if we were to fall into controversy and so into
dissolution and decay? Well, the spirit of the Twelve Steps, which has
brought
us release, from one of the grimmest obsessions known -- obviously, this
spirit
and these principles of retaining Grace had to be the fundamentals of our
unity.
But in order to become fundamental to our unity, these principles had to be
spelled out as they applied to the most prominent and the most grievous of
our
problems.

So, out of experience, the need to apply the spirit of our steps to our
lives of
working and living together, these were the forces that generated the
Traditions
of Alcoholics Anonymous.

But, we had to have more than cohesion. Even for survival, we had to carry
this
message. We had to function. In fact, that had become evident in the Twelve
Steps themselves for the last one enjoins us to carry the message. But just
how
would we carry this message? How would we communicate, we few, with those
myriad’s who still didn’t know? And how would this communication be
handled? And
how could we do these things, how could we authorize these things in such a
way
that in this new hot focus of effort and ego we were not again to be
shattered
by the forces that had once ruined our lives?

This was the problem of the Third Legacy. From the vital Twelfth Step call
right
up through our society to its culmination today. And, again, many of us
said:
This can’t be done. It’s all very well for Bill and Bob and a few
friends to set
up a Board of Trustees and to provide us with some literature, and look
after
our public relations, and do all of those chores for us we can’t do for
ourselves. This is fine, but we can’t go any further than that. This is a
job
for our elders. This is a job for our parents. In this direction only can
there
be simplicity and security.

And then we came to the day when it was seen that the parents were both
fallible
and perishable (although this seems to be a token they are not). And Dr.
Bob’s
hour struck. And we suddenly realized that this ganglion, this vital nerve
center of World Service, would lose its sensation the day the communication
between an increasingly unknown Board of Trustees and you was broken. Fresh
links would have to be forged. And at that time many of us said: This is
impossible. This is too hard. Even in transacting the simplest business,
providing the simplest of services, raising the minimum amounts of money,
these
excitements to us, in this society so bent on survival have been almost too
much
locally. Look at our club brawls. My God, if we have elections countrywide,
and
Delegates come down here, and look at the complexity -- thousands of group
representatives, hundreds of committeemen, scores of Delegates -— My God,
when
these descend on our parents, the Trustees, what is going to happen then? It
won’t be simplicity; it can’t be. Our experience has spelled it out.

But there was the imperative, the must. And why was there an imperative?
Because
we had better have some confusion, we had better have some politicking, than
to
have an utter collapse of this center. That was the alternative. And that
was
the uncertain and tenuous ground on which this Conference was called into
being.

I venture, in the minds of many, sometimes in mine, the Conference could be
symbolized by a great prayer and a faint hope. This was the state of affairs
in
1945 to 1950. And then came the day that some of us went up to Boston to
watch
an Assembly elect by two thirds vote or lot a Delegate. And prior to the
Assembly, I consulted all the local politicos and those very wise Irishmen
in
Boston said, we’re gonna make your prediction Bill, you know us
temperamentally,
but we’re going to say that this thing is going to work. And it was the
biggest
piece of news and one of the mightiest assurances that I had up to this time
that there could be any survival for these services.

Well, work it has, and we have survived another impossibility. Not only have
we
survived the impossibility, we have so far transcended it that I think that
there can be no return in future years to the old uncertainties, come what
perils there may.

Now, as we have seen in this quick review, the spirit of the Twelve Steps
was
applied in specific terms to our problems, to living, to working together.
This
developed the Traditions. In turn, the Traditions were applied to this
problem
of functioning at world levels in harmony and in unity.

And something which had seemed to grow like Topsy took on an increasing
coherence. And through the process of trial and error, refinements began to
be
made until the day of the great radical change. Our question here in the old
days was: Is the group conscience for Trustees and for founders? Or are they
to
be the parents of Alcoholics Anonymous forever? There is something a little
repugnant --you know, They got it through us, why can’t we go on telling
them?

So the great problem, could the group conscience function at world levels?
Well,
it can and it does. Today we are still in this process of definition and of
refinement in this matter of functioning. Unlike the Twelve Steps and the
Twelve
Traditions which no doubt will be undisturbed from here out, there will
always
be room in the functional area for refinements, improvements, adaptations.
For
God’s sake, let us never freeze these things. On the other hand, let us
look at
yesterday and today, at our experience. Now, just as it was vital to codify
in
Twelve Steps the spiritual side of our program, to codify in twelve
traditional
principles the forces and ideas that would make for unity, and discourage
disunity, so may it now be necessary to codify, those principles and
relationships upon which our world service function rests, from the group
right
up through.

This is what I like to call structuring. People often say, What do you mean
by
structuring? What use is it? Why don’t we just get together and do these
things?
Well, structure at this level means just what structure means in the Twelve
Steps and in the Twelve Traditions. It is a stated set of principles and
relationships by which we may understand each other, the tasks to be done
and
what the principles are for doing them. Therefore, why shouldn’t we take
the
broad expanse of the Traditions and use their principles to spell out our
special needs in relationships in this area of function for world service,
indeed, at long last, I trust for all services whatever character?

Well, we’ve been in the process of doing this and two or three years ago
it
occurred to me that I should perhaps take another stab --not at another
batch of
twelve principles or points, God forbid, but at trying to organize the ideas
and
relationships that already exist so as to present them in an easily
understood
manner.

As you know the Third Legacy Manual is a manual that largely tells us how;
it is
mostly a thing of mere description and of procedure. So I have cooked up in
a
very tentative way something which we might call Twelve Concepts for World
Service. This has been a three-year job. I found the material, because of
its
ramifications, exceedingly hard to organize. But I have made a stab at it
and
the Concepts, which are really bundles of related principles, are on paper
and
underneath each is a descriptive article. And I have eleven of the articles
and
perhaps will soon wind up the Twelfth.

Now, to give you an idea of what’s cooking, what I’ve been driving at,
I’ll
venture to bore you with two or three paragraphs of the introduction to this
thing.

“The Concepts to be discussed in the following pages are primarily an
interpretation of A.A.’s world service structure. They spell out the
traditional
practices and the Conference charter principles that relate the component
parts
of our world structure into a working whole. Our Third Legacy manual is
largely
a document of procedure. Up to now the Manual tells us how to operate our
service structure. But there is considerable lack of detailed information
which
would tell us why the structure has developed as it has and why its working
parts are related together in the fashion that our Conference and General
Service Board charters provide.

“These Twelve Concepts therefore represent an attempt to put on paper the
why of
our service structure in such a fashion that the highly valuable experience
of
the past and the conclusions that we have drawn from it cannot be lost.

“These Concepts are no attempt to freeze our operation against needed
change.
They only describe the present situation, the forces and principles that
have
molded it. It is to be remembered that in most respects the Conference
charter
can be readily amended. This interpretation of the past and present can,
however, have a high value for the future. Every oncoming generation of
service
workers will be eager to change and improve our structure and operations.
This
is good. No doubt change will be needed. Perhaps unforeseen flaws will
emerge.
These will have to be remedied.

But along with this very constructive outlook, there will be bound to be
still
another, a destructive one. We shall always be tempted to throw out the baby
with the bath water. We shall suffer the illusion that change, any plausible
change, will necessarily represent progress. When so animated, we may
carelessly
cast aside the hard won lessons of early experience and so fall back into
many
of the great errors of the past.

Hence, a prime purpose of these Twelve Concepts is to hold the experience
and
lessons of the early days constantly before us. This should reduce the
chance of
hasty and unnecessary change. And if alterations are made that happen to
work
out badly, then it is hoped that these Twelve Concepts will make a point of
safe
return.”

Now, quickly, what are they?

Well, the first two deal with: ultimate responsibility and authority for
world
services belongs to the A.A. group. That is to say, that’s the A.A.
conscience.

The next one deals with the necessity for delegates authority. And perhaps
you
haven’t thought of it, but when you re-read Tradition Two, you will see
that the
group conscience represents a final and ultimate authority and that the
trusted
servant is the delegated authority from the groups in which the servant is
trusted to do the kinds of things for the groups they can’t do for
themselves.
So, how that got that way, respecting world services: ultimate authority,
delegated authority is here spelled out.

Then there comes in the next essay this all questioned importance of
leadership,
this all important question of what anyway is a trusted servant. Is this
gent or
gal a messenger, a housemaid -- or is he to be really trusted? And if so,
how is
he going to know how much he can be trusted? And what is going to be your
understanding of it when you hand him the job? Now, these problems are
legion.
The extent to which this trust is to be spelled out and applied to each
particular condition has to have some means of interpretation, doesn’t it?
So I
have suggested here that, throughout our services, we create what might be
called the principle of decision -— and the root of this principle is
trust. The
principle of decision, which says that any executive, committee, board, the
Conference itself, within the state or customary scope of their several
duties,
should be able to say what questions they will dispose of themselves —-
and
which they will pass on to the next higher authority for guidance,
direction,
consultation and whatnot.

This spells out and defines, and makes an automatic means of defining
throughout
our structure at all times, what the trust is that any servant could expect.
You
say this is dangerous? I don’t think so. It simply means that you are not,
out
of your ultimate authority as groups, to be constantly giving a guy
directions
who you’ve already trusted to think for himself. Now, if he thinks badly,
you
can sack him. But trust him first. That is the big thing.

Now, then, there is another traditional principle, the source of another
essay
here called the principle of participation. Our whole lives have been
wrecked,
often from childhood, because we have not been participants. There had been
too
much of the parental thing, too much of the wrong kind of the parental
thing, we
always wanted to belong, we always wanted to participate; and there is going
to
be a constant tendency, which we must always forefend against, and that is
to
place in our service structure any group, A.A. as a whole, the Conference,
the
Board of Trustees, committees, executives -- to place any of these people in
absolutely unqualified authority, one over the other. This is an
institutional,
a military, set-up —- and God knows we drunks have rejected institutions
and
this kind of authority, for our purpose, haven’t we?

So, therefore, how, as a practical matter, are we going to express this
participation. Right here in this conference it’s burned in; in Article
XII
you’ll see this statement in the Conference Charter: nobody is to be set
in
utter authority over anybody else. How do we prevent this?

The Trustees here, and the headquarters people here, are in a great minority
over you people. You have the ultimate authority over us. And you say, well
these folks are nicely incorporated, and we ain’t; and they have the dough
legally, so have we got it? Sure, you got it. You can go home and shut the
dough
off, can’t you? You’ve got the ultimate authority but -- we’ve got
some
delegated authority. Now when you get in this Conference, you find that the
Trustees, and the Directors and the staffs have votes.

And many of you say, why is it; we represent the groups; why the hell
shouldn’t
we tell these people? Why should they utter one yip while we’re doing it?
Oh,
we’ll let ‘em yip, but not vote. Well, you see, right there we get from
the
institutional idea to the corporate idea. And in the corporate business
world,
there is participation in these levels. Can you imagine -how much stock
would
you buy in General Motors if you knew the president and half the board of
directors couldn’t get into a meeting because they were on the payroll? Or
could
just come in and listen to the out-of-town directors? You’d want these
people’s
opinions registered. And they can’t really belong unless they vote. This
we have
found out by the hardest kind of experience. So therefore, the essay here on
participation deals with the principle that any A.A. servant in any top
echelon
of service, regardless of whether they’re paid, unpaid, volunteer or what,
shall
be entitled to reasonable voting privileges in accordance with their
responsibility.

And you good politicos are going to say, but these people here hold a
balance of
power. Well, we qualified that in one way. We’ll take the balance of power
away
from them when it comes to qualifications for their own jobs or voting in
approval of their own actions. But the bulk of the work of this Conference
has
to do with plans and policy for the future. So supposing that among you
Delegates there is a split. And supposing these people come in and vote,
which,
by the way, they seldom do as a bloc, and they swing it one way or the other
on
matters of future policy and planning; well, after all, why shouldn’t
they? Are
they any less competent than the rest of us? Of course not. Besides these
technical considerations, there is this deep need in us to belong, to
participate. And you can only participate on the basis of equality -- and
one
token of this is voting equality. At first blush, you won’t like the idea.
But
you’ll have a chance to think about it.

One more idea: There came to this country some hundred years ago a French
Baron
whose family and himself had been wracked by the French revolution. De
Toqueville. And he was a worshipful admirer of democracy. And in those days
democracy seemed to be mostly expressed in people’s minds by votes of
simple
majorities. And he was a worshipful admirer of the spirit of democracy as
expressed by the power of a majority to govern. But, said de Toqueville, a
majority can be ignorant, it can be brutal, it can be tyrannous -- and we
have
seen it. Therefore, unless you most carefully protect a minority, large or
small, make sure that minority opinions are voiced, make sure that
minorities
have unusual rights, you’re democracy is never going to work and its
spirit will
die. This was de Toqueville’s prediction and, considering today’s times,
is it
strange that he is not widely read now?

That is why in this Conference we try to get a unanimous consent while we
can;
this is why we say the Conference can mandate the Board of Trustees on a
two-thirds vote. But we have said more here. We have said that any Delegate,
any
Trustee, any staff member, any service director, -- any board, committee or
whatever --- that wherever there is a minority, it shall always be the right
of
this minority to file a minority report so that their views are held up
clearly.
And if in the opinion of any such minority, even a minority of one, if the
majority is about to hastily or angrily do something which could be to the
detriment of Alcoholics Anonymous, the serious detriment, it is not only
their
right to file a minority appeal, it is their duty.

So, like de Toqueville, neither you nor I want either the tyranny or the
majority, nor the tyranny of the small minority. And steps have been taken
here
to balance up these relations.

Now, some of the other things cover topics like this, I touched on this: The
Conference acknowledges the primary administrative responsibility of the
Trustees. We have talked about electing trustees and yet primarily they are
a
body of administrators. In a sense, it’s an executive body, isn’t it?
Look at
any form of government. (Understand we’re not a form of government, but
you have
to pay attention to these forms). The President of the United States is the
only
elected executive; all the rest are appointive, aren’t they, subject to
confirmation by, which is the system we got here -- and this goes into that.

And then there is this question taken up in another essay. How can these
legal
rights of the Trustees, which haven’t been changed one jot or title by the
appearance of this Conference, if they’ve got the legal right to hang on
to your
money and do as they dammed please, what’s going to stop them? Well, the
answer
is: Nobody has a vested interest. They have to be volunteers always. They
are
amenable to the spirit of this Conference and its power and its prestige ---
and
if they are not, there is a provision here by which they can be reorganized;
there is a provision in here by which they can be censored - and you can
always
go home and shut off the money spigot.

So, the traditional power of this Conference and the groups is actually
superior
to the legal power of the Trustees. That is the balance. But the trustees as
a
minority some day, should this Conference get very angry and unreasonable,
say:
Boys, we’re going to veto you for the time being, we ain’t gonna do this
---
even as the President of the United States has the veto, so will these
fellows.
You go home and think this over. We won’t go along. And if you give them a
vote
of no confidence, they can appeal to the groups. These are the balances,
see;
this is interpretive, this has all been implicit in our structure but
we’re
trying to spell it out.

Well, there are others —- There’s a whole section on leadership, service
leadership from top to bottom, what it’s composed of. In A.A. we wash
between
great extremes. On the one side, we’ve got the infallible leader who never
makes
any mistakes --- and let us do just as he says. On the other side we have a
concept of leadership which goes and says: What shall I do? What shall I do?
Tell me, what time do —- I’m just a humble servant, not a trusted one,
just a
humble one. The hell with either. Leadership in practice works in between --
and
we spell that out. And so on.

This will give you an idea of what’s cooking in the Twelve Concepts for
World
Service. The last one which I haven’t done deals with the Conference --
Article
XII of the Conference charter. And you who recall it know that this is
several
things. First of all, it’s the substance of the contract the groups made
with
the Board of Trustees at the time of St. Louis. And this contract decrees
that
this body shall never be a government.

It decrees that we shall be prudent financially. It decrees that we shall be
keepers of the A.A. Tradition —- and so on -- so that it is in part a
spiritual
document and in part a contract. And, God willing, because it is both
spiritual
and contract, let it be for all time of our existence a sanctified contract.

My own days of active service, like the sands in our last hourglass, are
running
out. And this is good. We know that all families have to have parents and we
know that the great unwisdom of all parenthood is to try to remain the
parents
of infants in adolescence and keep people in this state forever. We know
that
when the parents have done their bit, and said their pieces, and have nursed
the
family along, that there comes the point that the parents must say: Now, you
go
out and try your wings. You haven’t grown up and we haven’t grown up,
but you
have come to the age of responsibility where, with the tools we are leaving
you,
you must try to grow up, to grow in God’s image and likeness.

So my feeling is not that I’m withdrawing because I’m tired. My feeling
is that
I would like to be another kind of parent, a fellow on the sidelines. If
there
is some breach in these walls which we have erected, some unseen flaw or
defect,
of course all of us oldsters are going to pitch in for the repairs. But this
business of functioning in the here and now, that is for the new generation.

May God bless Alcoholics Anonymous forever. And I offer a prayer that the
destiny of this society will ever be safe in the hearts of its membership
and in
the conscience of its trusted servants. You are the heirs. As I said at the
opening the future belongs to you.

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++++Message 4928. . . . . . . . . . . . Little Red Book - current Hazelden
edit.
From: Charlie C . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/17/2008 4:58:00 PM

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Am curious to read the current Hazelden edition
of The Little Red Book after reading the recent
posts on it.

My question: is the "nonsexist" language edition
from Hazelden more or less the original text,
or is it significantly altered?

Charlie C.
IM, Yahoo = route20guy

"For what do we live, but to make sport for
our neighbors, and laugh at them in our turn?"
Pride & Prejudice

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++++Message 4929. . . . . . . . . . . . quote from "Alcohol and Public
Opinion" (1942)
From: Ron Roizen . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/18/2008 9:22:00 AM

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Good Morning!

I just now joined this group in order to ask
the following question:

In 1942, a man named Dwight Anderson published
what I believe to be one of the most important
articles in the history of the modern
alcoholism movement. It was titled "Alcohol
and Public Opinion," and published in the
Quarterly Journal of Studies on Alcohol
(3:376-392, 1942). Near the end of this
article, Anderson discussed the prevailing
apathy and sense of impotence with regard to
alcoholism current among contemporary
physicians in the U.S. At one point, he
tells an anecdote about the misinterpretation
of slips among physicians (pp. 386-387):

"Too frequently the therapist merely regards
this [i.e., a slip] as evidence of the
impossibility of cure, and gives up. A
psychiatrist in a municipal hospital so
regarded a lapse in an instance known to the
author. A member of Alcoholics Anonymous who
had been helped to remain sober for more than
a year, landed back in the psychiatric ward
where she was quite well known from many
previous visits. The psychiatric intern who
visited her said: 'Well, I see you're back in
here again despite "Alcoholics Anonymous."'
Do we chide a tuberculosis patient who
relapses?"

Might anyone on this list recall anything in
connection with Anderson's anecdote, I wonder?
I'm particularly interested in the name of
the AA member Anderson was referring to.

Thanks in advance for any help!

Ron Roizen
Wallace, Idaho

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++++Message 4930. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr. Percy Poliak
From: bruceken@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/20/2008 9:03:00 AM

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Dr. Percy Poliak had indeed been on the staff
of Bellevue Hospital in New York, as Resident
Physician in Charge of the Psychiatric
Division. At that time he had a brief
contact with Bill W. and had come to possess
a Big Book.

While at Bellvue Dr. Poliak also met a San
Francisco drunk, Ted C, who was in the New
York hospital recovering. That was in 1939.
(Ted C. was among the first four members of
AA in San Francisco.)

By March of 1940, however, according to a
history of the California Northern Coastal
Area written by Dean K. (d. 1984), Dr. Poliak
was on the Staff of the San Francisco General
Hospital.

It was at that time that another local AA
member, Don B., had started to drink again,
and was admitted there. Ted C., now a sober AA
member, went to visit Don in the SF hospital
and ran into Dr. Poliak again.

This led to Dr. Poliak becoming very active
with AA membership in San Francisco. attending
AA meetings and referring numerous patients
to the Fellowship. He is honored by AA in San
Francisco as one of its strongest friends.

Bruce Kennedy
Chair, San Francisco Archives Committee

- - - -

Message 4922 from <lance_1954@yahoo.com>
(lance_1954 at yahoo.com)

Hi group!

Does anyone have any info on Dr. Percy Poliak?

He gave the "2nd Doctor's Opinion" in the Big
Book in Chapt. 3, "More About Alcoholism,"
page 43. (It is only one paragraph long!)

Thanks, and God's blessings!

Lance, from colorful Colorado!

- - - -

From the moderator: for additional background,
see

http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/BBWhoWhat.htm

http://www.justloveaudio.com/resources/Assorted/Big_Book_Name_and_Date_Refer
ence\

[12]\s.pdf

page 43: staff member world renowned hospital
was Dr. Percy Poliak at Bellevue Hospital,
New York

page 43: "two of you men, whose stories I
have heard," unknown.

Dr. Percy Poliak -- San Francisco psychiatrist
was with Bellevue Hospital New York then
San Francisco Country Hospital, impressed
with A.A., gave A.A. group full support
(Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age page 88)

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++++Message 4931. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Little Red Book
From: Filiatreau, Amy . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/17/2008 11:00:00 AM

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Glenn wrote: Again, someone with access to
the New York AA Archives needs to check the
original letters to make sure that we have
accurate copies to work from.

- - - -

Hello! As you both know, I usually don’t
stick my foot in at AAHistoryLovers but prefer
just to view the wonderful things others
are researching and writing on this list,
only responding or butting in when specifi-
cally requested to do so. That said, since I
certainly have access to AA’s GSO Archives :-),
I thought I would respond to this and hopefully
can help.

- - - -

We have an original copy of Bobbie Burger’s
November 11, 1944 letter to Barry Collins, and
her words are slightly different than what is
quoted below, and some sentences were removed,
but it’s basically the same. She writes (this
is typed verbatim from her letter):

- - - -

"Dear Barry:
. . . The Washington pamphlet like the new
Cleveland one and the host of others are all
local projects. I doubt that they make
anything on the sale of them for it is only
on a very large distribution that anything
can be made. I know, although we ship thousands
of our own pamphlets, that we actually lose a
little selling at the price we do. Of course,
we do not try to make a profit – the pamphlet
distribution is just another service of this
office. We do not actually approve or
disapprove of these local pieces; by that
I mean that the Foundation feels each Group
is entitled to write up its own 'can opener'
nd [sic] let it stand on its own merits. All
of them have good points and very few have
caused any controversy. But as in all things
of a local nature, we keep hands off, either
pro or con. Personally I’m glad to see the
‘Spnsor’ [sic] pamphlet out of Cleveland. I
know the system there ‘works’ and could be
of benefit to other groups. Frankly I haen’t
[sic] had time to mor [sic] than glance at
the Washington booklet but I’ve heard some
favorable comments about it. I think there
must be at least 25 local pamphlets now being
used and I've yet to see one that hasn't had
some good points. I think it is up to each
individual Group whether it wants to use and
buy these pamphlets from the Group that puts
them out. . . .

Sincerely, Bobbie (Margaret R. Burger)"

- - - -

We have many letters to and from Bill about
this book, but I can’t find the one transcribed
below (also on hindsfoot.org) from November
1950. We have a number of letters from Bill
to Ed Webster and to Barry Collins. They
clearly were communicating with Bill in late
1950; they sent Bill some copies of the new
revision and many letters were exchanged. But
I can’t find Bill’s 1950 letter to Barry with
this quote in it.

However, this is just the sort of thing that
Bill did say in many other letters. I don’t
see any reason at all to think the letter is
not legitimate; we just don’t seem to have it
in our collection. I believe it’s probably
genuine, but without having a copy of it here,
I can’t say for sure.

The Alcoholic Foundation and Bill W. were
always very welcoming of books like this if
they were helpful to AA members, and always
took a very hands-off approach, as we do today.
We have a letter from Bill W. dated November
14, 1946, in which he writes to Ed:

- - - -

“I haven’t had a chance to get at the little
book. Everybody who has read it seems to like
it very much – which of course was to be
expected! Personally I am very glad to see
many people writing about A.A. and circulating
the material about even though some folks
seem to think I should do all the writing.
To me this idea is nonsense. A.A. is not one
point of view, it is many.”

- - - -

On May 31, 1949, Bill writes Ed again to thank
him for sending him some books. He writes,

- - - -

“God forbid that Alcoholics Anonymous ever
become frozen or rigid in its ways of doing
or thinking. Within the framework of our
principles the ways are apparently legion.
There is little doubt that the contribution
you folks have made to our progress will always
be a part of the folk lore of our well-loved
fellowship.”

- - - -

Hope this is helpful. Take care!

Amy

Amy Filiatreau, CA
Archives Director
AA World Services, Inc.

212-870-2568

<filiatreaua@aa.org>
(filiatreaua at aa.org)

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++++Message 4932. . . . . . . . . . . . Spiritual experience changed to
awakening
From: celticgreen4 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/24/2008 11:53:00 AM

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Can anyone tell me when the Big Book was
changed to say in the 12th Step in Chapter
Five "Having had a spiritual awakening..."
as versus the earlier phrase "Having had a
spiritual experience..."?

- - - -

FROM OUR PAST MESSAGES:

From: "ArtSheehan" <ArtSheehan@msn.com>
Date: Sat Dec 3, 2005
Subject: RE: Changing "those" to "these"
in 12th step wording

In March 1941, the wording of Step 12 was
changed in the 2nd printing of the 1st
edition Big Book. The term “spiritual
experience” was changed to “spiritual
awakening” and the term “as the result of
these steps” was changed to “as the result
of those steps.”

An appendix titled “Spiritual Experience” was
also added to the Big Book in the 2nd printing
of the 1st edition. This was done because
many members thought they had to have a sudden
and spectacular spiritual experience similar
to the one Bill had in Towns Hospital. The
appendix emphasized that most spiritual
experiences were of the type that the psycho-
logist William James called the “educational
variety.”

There is a very brief mention of the Step 12
wording change from "experience" to "awakening"
in "AA Comes of Age" in the chapter "Religion
Looks at Alcoholics Anonymous" by Father Ed
Dowling (pg 256). Outside of it, I have been
unable to find any further references to the
changes in AA literature.

In 1956, the wording of Step 12 changed again
in the 2nd printing of the 2nd edition Big
Book. The term “as the result of those steps”
was restored to its original form of “as the
result of these steps.”

The 1976 General Service Conference approved
publication of the 3rd edition Big Book.

The 1976 Conference also expanded a 1955
provision of the Conference Charter to specify
that any change to the Steps, Traditions or
Concepts and 6 Warranties of Article 12 of
the General Service Conference Charter, would
require written approval of 75% of the AA
Groups worldwide. The Conference Advisory
Action makes any change whatsoever to the
Steps, Traditions, Concepts and Warranties a
virtual impossibility (even so much as adding
or removing a comma).

Cheers
Arthur

- - - -

Message 3677 from "ArtSheehan"
<ArtSheehan@msn.com> (ArtSheehan at msn.com)
Sept. 4, 2006

There were a number of significant changes
made to the 2nd printing of the 1st edition
Big Book:

In March 1941, in the 2nd printing, the
wording of Step Twelve changed. The term
"spiritual experience" was changed to
"spiritual awakening" and "as the result of
these steps" was changed to "as the result
of those steps." The story "Lone Endeavor"
(of Pat C from CA, ghost written by Ruth
Hock) was removed. Appendix II "Spiritual
Experience" was added. Many members thought
they had to have a sudden, spectacular
spiritual experience similar to the one
Bill had in Towns Hospital. The appendix
emphasized that most spiritual experiences
developed slowly over time and were of the
"educational variety." William James, by
the way did not explicitly use the term
"educational variety" in his 1902 book
titled "The Varieties of Religious
Experience - A Study In Human Nature."

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++++Message 4933. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: list of all known early AA
pamphlets and can openers
From: shakey1aa . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/24/2008 12:37:00 AM

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I recently obtained printings of the 1st and
2nd reprints of Jack Alexander's SEP (Saturday
Evening Post) article which must have been
the most widely circulasted Can Opener of the
1940's. After the articled appeared in the
magazine the Philadelphia Mother Group ordered
10,000 copies from Judge Curtis Bok, a Phila-
delphia Municipal Court Judge and the owner
of the Curtis publications. One thousand of
these stayed in Philadelphia and nine thousand
went to New York. Our relationship with the
Judge occured with the help from two Non-
Alcoholic members of AA in Philadelphia. They
were referred to as "associate members" and
are listed in the 1st meeting list issued by
the Mother Group. (July 1940) Those two men
were Dr's A Weise Hammer and Dudley Saul.

Has the list of Can Opener's been updated
since the initial post?

Shakey Mike Gwirtz
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
See you in Niagara Falls NY in Sept 2008 ?

- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce C." <brucecl2002@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi All
>
> Here is a list of some of the early AA
> pamphlets I have seen. All early can openers
> had a point.
>
> I have seen two "AA" pamphlets or booklets,
> both from Works Publishing:
>
> 1. - The Houston Press reprints of intro,
> an editorial, and 6 - articles published
> by The Houston Press, with a reprint of
> "A New Approach to Psychotherapy in Chronic
> Alcoholism", by Dr. Silkworth, from "The Journal
> - Lancet, MN. July, 1939, Vol. LIX, No. 7,
> page 312.(no copyright date, circa. 1940)
>
> 2. - AA pamphlet or booklet, 29 pages,
> Alcoholics Anonymous intro, Am I An
> Alcoholic?, The Doctor's Nightmare, The
> European Drinker, Women Suffer Too, Bill's
> Story, Medicine, Religion and Alcoholics
> Anonymous, The Twelve Steps, Our Friends Say,
> Book Review by Dr. Harry Emerson Fosdick.
> copyright 1943.
>
> Other Works Publishing pamphlets or booklets:
>
> Medicine Looks at A.A. - 1946
> A.A. Tradition - 1947
> Sedatives - 1948
> The Society of Alcoholics Anonymous - 1950
>
> Pamphlets Booklets with "color covers", by
> the Alcoholic Foundation:
>
> A.A. for the Woman - 1952
> Sedatives and the Alcoholic - 1952
> The Alcoholic Employee - 1952
> Young People and A.A. - 1953
>
> The items stated earlier reprinted from Akron -
> Cleveland, Ohio, and Detroit, MI., and Chicago,
> IL. central offices.
>
>
> Bruce C.
>

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++++Message 4934. . . . . . . . . . . . Conference Approved Literature
From: James Bliss . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/29/2008 12:13:00 PM

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I know that this is a little late, but I was just going through a stack
of material organizing it and came across an interesting item from the
GSO 'Service Material From GSO'. It is document number F-29 dated
10/93. I do not know if it is still available. But it says the
following regarding 'Conference-Approved literature:

<begin quote>
"The term "Conference-approved" describes written or audiovisual
material approved by the Conference for publication by G.S.O. This
process assures that everything in such literature is in accord with
A.A. principles. Conference-approved material always deals with the
recovery program of Alcoholics Anonymous or with information about the
A.A. Fellowship.

"The term has no relation to material not published by G.S.O. It does
_not_ imply Conference Disapproval of other material about A.A. A great
deal of literature helpful to alcoholics is published by others, and
A.A. does not try to tell any individual member what he or she may or
may not read.

"Conference approval assures us that a piece of literature represents
solid A.A. experience. Any Conference-approved booklet or pamphlet goes
through a lengthy and painstaking process, during which a variety of
A.A.s from all over the United States and Canada read and express
opinions at every stage of production."
<end quote>

It states a little later:
<begin quote>
"All "A.A. Literature" Is Not Conference-approved

"Central offices and intergroups do write and distribute pamphlets or
booklets that are not Conference-approved. If such pieces meet the
needs of the local membership, they may be legitimately classified as
"A.A. literature." There is no conflict between A.A. World Services,
Inc. (A.A.W.S. -- publishers of Conference-approved literature), and
central offices or intergroups - rather they complement each other. The
Conference does not _disapprove_ of such material.

"G.S.O. does develop some literature that does not have to be approved
by the Conference, such as service material, Guidelines and bulletins."
<end quote>

Thought this might be of interest to those who were following the
original thread.

Jim

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++++Message 4935. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Conference Approved Literature
From: Jonathan Rose . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/30/2008 6:53:00 PM

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Hi friends,

The A.A. web-site posts information regarding
Conference-approved and other A.A. literature.
the direct link at the site is:

http://aa.org/en_services_for_members.cfm?PageID=98&SubPage=214

in fellowship,

Buck R.

- - - -

On Mar 29, 2008, at 12:13 PM, James Bliss wrote:

I know that this is a little late, but I was just going through a stack
of material organizing it and came across an interesting item from the
GSO 'Service Material From GSO'. It is document number F-29 dated
10/93. I do not know if it is still available. But it says the
following regarding 'Conference-Approved literature:

<begin quote>
"The term "Conference-approved" describes written or audiovisual
material approved by the Conference for publication by G.S.O. This
process assures that everything in such literature is in accord with
A.A. principles. Conference-approved material always deals with the
recovery program of Alcoholics Anonymous or with information about the
A.A. Fellowship.

"The term has no relation to material not published by G.S.O. It does
_not_ imply Conference Disapproval of other material about A.A. A great
deal of literature helpful to alcoholics is published by others, and
A.A. does not try to tell any individual member what he or she may or
may not read.

"Conference approval assures us that a piece of literature represents
solid A.A. experience. Any Conference-approved booklet or pamphlet goes
through a lengthy and painstaking process, during which a variety of
A.A.s from all over the United States and Canada read and express
opinions at every stage of production."
<end quote>

It states a little later:
<begin quote>
"All "A.A. Literature" Is Not Conference-approved

"Central offices and intergroups do write and distribute pamphlets or
booklets that are not Conference-approved. If such pieces meet the
needs of the local membership, they may be legitimately classified as
"A.A. literature." There is no conflict between A.A. World Services,
Inc. (A.A.W.S. -- publishers of Conference-approved literature), and
central offices or intergroups - rather they complement each other. The
Conference does not _disapprove_ of such material.

"G.S.O. does develop some literature that does not have to be approved
by the Conference, such as service material, Guidelines and bulletins."
<end quote>

Thought this might be of interest to those who were following the
original thread.

Jim

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 4936. . . . . . . . . . . . Middletown play presented at AA
meetings
From: garylock7008 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/27/2008 5:06:00 PM

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Gary up here in Canada eh!

One of our AA members - sober over 40 years
remembers a play that used to move from group
to group, about Middletown?

He remembers it being performed at one of the
Founder's Days a number of years ago - wonder
if anyone can give me more information, a
script?

Best in Recovery - Gary

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++++Message 4937. . . . . . . . . . . . William James and Appendix
From: rdg1649 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/26/2008 7:53:00 PM

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It is true that James used the term experiental
rather than educational as Bill's appendix to
the Big Book states.

However, it has always struck me that there
is a far greater problem with this appendix.
Reading it I get the impression that Bill is
implying that it is o.k. if a member's
spiritual experience is not of the 'bolt of
lightning' type as he describes his.

In fact, having read James, it is my
impression that James is saying the exact
opposite: That the most lasting and deep
are experiential and not revival type
surges of emotion as Bill describes his.

Seems to me that Bill acurately reports
that James noted a 'variety' of religious
experiences but not with the same emphasis/
orientation that Bill implies.

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++++Message 4938. . . . . . . . . . . . The Third Courageous Doctor
From: Danny S . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/27/2008 12:06:00 PM

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Hey guys. Thanks for all of your service here.
I have a pressing question to which I can't
seem to get the answer. Yet.

Most of us AA History lovers are already
familiar with the two doctors in the Big Book
who did the unspeakable: (i) Admitted to a
suffering patient that they didn't know squat
about how to help a real alcoholic and points
out (ii) the existence of a distinction
between the alcoholic and the non-alcoholic.
That would be Silkworth and Jung. We owe our
Fellowship to these men.

But there is one more - a THIRD! In a story
in the back of the Book, "Me an Alcoholic?"
(4th edit. p. 382) the author talks about
his analyst who concluded that the "line
between the heavy drinker and the alcoholic
is not always clear" (385:5) and tells him,
"there is nothing I can do" (386:1) and
"nothing medicine can do".(386:1) The
author points out the analyst's "courage to
admit failure" (386:2)

Is there a name we can ascribe to this third,
courageous and honest physician?

Peace, Danny Schwarzhoff

- - - -

From the moderator:

"Me an Alcoholic?" is found in the 2nd edition
on page 419, 3rd edition on page 432, and 4th
edition on page 382. Author Unknown.

See Nancy Olson's biographies of the authors at
http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/Authors.htm
which notes that "This author's date of sobriety
is believed to be November 1947."

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

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++++Message 4939. . . . . . . . . . . . History & Archives Lebanon PA June
21 2008
From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/31/2008 10:15:00 AM

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Multi-District History & Archives Gathering
Lebanon, Pennsylvania, June 21 2008

This year's Gathering is scheduled to begin
at 8 a.m. (registration) on Saturday June 21
2008 at the Social Hall at 750 State Drive in
Lebanon PA (location also in 2006 and 2007).

Suggested topics for panels are:

**The Messengers to Ebby (Rowland H,
Shep C, Cebra G)

**AA and Baseball

**AA and Films/Theatre

**Early Days in the Mid-Atlantic Region

**AA Pioneers

**And a Panel on Coming into AA in the
Eastern Pennsylvania Area in October 1970
(three old friends who have known each
other in sobriety for more than 35 years).

The Gathering is FREE and morning refreshments
and lunch will be provided.

End time about 4:30-5:00 p.m.

Contact the Chairman at histandarch@comcast.net
(histandarch at comcast.net)

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++++Message 4940. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Middletown play presented at AA
meetings
From: Bob Schultz . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/31/2008 7:09:00 PM

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http://www.aaprimarypurpose.org/literature/Twelve%20Traditions%20Play.pdf

From: "Bob Schultz" <bsdds@comcast.net>
(bsdds at comcast.net)

Also from: "mchugh1652"
<mchugh1652@ameritech.net>
(mchugh1652 at ameritech.net)

- - - -

From: S Sommers <scmws@yahoo.com>
(scmws at yahoo.com)

The local districts and occasionally a group
have put on skits at conferences. The Twelve
Traditions play is a fine skit which teaches
the players and others much about the
traditions and service structure. I ran
across The Twelve Concepts play somewhere,
but I can't find it right now.

There is a good website:

recoveryskits.com

which might be a place to look.

Thanks.

Sam'l Sommers
Elkhart Indiana

- - - -

From: "gayle" <downtowndoggie@yahoo.com>
(downtowndoggie at yahoo.com)

Hello to all! this is my first post. I
requested the script for this play from GSO
back in the 90's & actually performed in it
twice. I am looking at the script right now.
It's called "Twelve Traditions Play" the
cast is made up of: Narrator, Founder
(oldtimer), Moneybags, Eager Beaver,
Politician, Delegate and Newcomer! It takes
place in Middletown Group. It also says
"There is no set script or cast for this play.
Like everything in A.A., it is very "loosely"
organized. Ideally there should be seven
players; this version is set up for six
players and a narrator or themesetter who
opens and closes the play."

----- Original Message -----
From: garylock7008
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 4:06 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Middletown play presented at AA meetings

Gary up here in Canada eh!

One of our AA members - sober over 40 years
remembers a play that used to move from group
to group, about Middletown?

He remembers it being performed at one of the
Founder's Days a number of years ago - wonder
if anyone can give me more information, a
script?

Best in Recovery - Gary

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++++Message 4941. . . . . . . . . . . . Significant April Dates in A.A.
History
From: chesbayman56 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/1/2008 1:34:00 AM

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April 1935 - Dr. Silkworth told Bill to quit preaching at drunks &
tell them of obsession & allergy.
April 1950 - Saturday Evening Post article "The Drunkard's Best
Friend" by Jack Alexander.
April 1958 - The word "honest" dropped from AA Preamble, "an honest
desire to stop drinking".
April 1966 - Change in ratio of trustees of the General Service
Board; now two thirds (majority) are alcoholic.
April 1970 - GSO moved to 468 Park Ave. South, NYC.
April 1, 1939 - Publication date of Alcoholics Anonymous, AA's Big
Book.
April 1, 1940 - Larry J. of Houston, wrote "The Texas Prayer", used
to open AA meetings in Texas.
April 1, 1966 - Sister Ignatia died.
April 2, 1966 - Harry Tiebout, M.D. died.
April 3, 1941 - First AA meeting held in Florida.
April 3, 1960 - Fr. Ed Dowling, S.J., died. He was Bill
W's "spiritual sponsor."
April 7, 1941 - Ruth Hock reported there were 1,500 letters asking
for help as a result of the Saturday Evening Post Article by Jack
Alexander.
April 10, 1939 - The first ten copies of the Big Book arrived at the
office Bill and Hank P shared.
April 11, 1938 - The Alcoholic Foundation formed as a trusteeship for
A.A. (sometimes reported as May 1938)
April 11, 1941 - Bill and Lois finally found a home, Stepping Stones
in New Bedford.
April 16, 1940 - A sober Rollie H. catches the only opening day no-
hitter in baseball history since 1909.
April 16, 1973 - Dr. Jack Norris presented President Nixon with the
one millionth copy of the Big Book.
April 19, 1940 - The first AA group in Little Rock, Arkansas, was
formed. First 'mail order' group.
April 19, 1941 - The first AA group in the State of Washington was
formed in Seattle.
April 22, 1940 - Bill and Hank transfer their Works Publishing stock
to the Alcoholic Foundation.
April 23, 1940 - Dr. Bob wrote the Trustees to refuse Big Book
royalties, but Bill W insisted that Dr. Bob and Anne receive them.
April 24, 1940 - The first AA pamphlet, "AA", was published.
April 24, 1989 - Dr. Leonard Strong died.
April 25, 1939 - Morgan R interviewed on Gabriel Heatter radio show.
April 25, 1951 - AA's first General Service Conference was held.
April 26 or May 1, 1939 - Bank forecloses on 182 Clinton Street.
April 30, 1989 - Film "My Name is Bill W." a Hallmark presentation
was broadcast on ABC TV.

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++++Message 4942. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Conference Approved Literature
From: Arthur Sheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/31/2008 5:50:00 PM

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Hi All

I'd like to make an appeal to give consideration
to performing a search of the large and rich
archival postings of AA History Lovers. Topics
such as "Conference-approved literature" have
surfaced a number of times in the forum and it
is well worth a trip through the past postings.
It will also yield much more information on
individual viewpoints of various members of
the forum. It's a rich information source -
please take advantage of it.

The information published by GSO on what
"Conference-approved" means, is also included
in hard copy form in the Group Handbook offered
by AAWS/GSO. GSO publishes a number of
informative and valuable "service pieces"
that do not require Conference approval. The
information cited about what "Conference-
approved" means is one these "service pieces."

The Conference-approval process can be very
rigorous at times. Trustees Committees and
the GSO Publications Department are vital
parts of the whole process. More often than
not only a small percentage of Conference
Delegates will have the opportunity to
completely review a piece of literature prior
to voting on it on the Conference floor for
Conference approval/disapproval.

It would be a physical impossibility for all
Conference Delegates to review every piece of
literature under consideration. The backbone
of the Conference is made up of "Conference
Committees" (explained in the AA Service
Manual). Each Conference Committee that has
a literature item on its agenda performs the
detailed review and discussion and makes a
"recommendations" to the Conference as a whole
for approval. If the recommendation receives
at least a 2/3 majority in the affirmative
then it is approved.

The Conference approval process can also be
intimidating and onerous. One of the members
of this forum, Mel B, wrote the lion's share
of Bill W's biography "Pass It On" (the
original title proposed was "Bill W and His
Friends" - my Areas Archives has 2 manuscript
copies). I don't want to try to speak for Mel
but I can only imagine how tough it was to
satisfy a formidable array of Trustees and
Delegates on a biography of Bill W. Also,
the attempt to write an AA history from 1955
had to be abandoned. I suspect Conference
approval for any type of historical work would
be one heck of a major challenge (and probably
rightfully so).

Cheers
Arthur

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jonathan Rose
Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2008 5:53 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Conference Approved Literature

Hi friends,

The A.A. web-site posts information regarding
Conference-approved and other A.A. literature.
the direct link at the site is:

http://aa.org/en_services_for_members.cfm?PageID=98&SubPage=214

in fellowship,

Buck R.

- - - -

On Mar 29, 2008, at 12:13 PM, James Bliss wrote:

I know that this is a little late, but I was just going through a stack
of material organizing it and came across an interesting item from the
GSO 'Service Material From GSO'. It is document number F-29 dated
10/93. I do not know if it is still available. But it says the
following regarding 'Conference-Approved literature:

<begin quote>
"The term "Conference-approved" describes written or audiovisual
material approved by the Conference for publication by G.S.O. This
process assures that everything in such literature is in accord with
A.A. principles. Conference-approved material always deals with the
recovery program of Alcoholics Anonymous or with information about the
A.A. Fellowship.

"The term has no relation to material not published by G.S.O. It does
_not_ imply Conference Disapproval of other material about A.A. A great
deal of literature helpful to alcoholics is published by others, and
A.A. does not try to tell any individual member what he or she may or
may not read.

"Conference approval assures us that a piece of literature represents
solid A.A. experience. Any Conference-approved booklet or pamphlet goes
through a lengthy and painstaking process, during which a variety of
A.A.s from all over the United States and Canada read and express
opinions at every stage of production."
<end quote>

It states a little later:
<begin quote>
"All "A.A. Literature" Is Not Conference-approved

"Central offices and intergroups do write and distribute pamphlets or
booklets that are not Conference-approved. If such pieces meet the
needs of the local membership, they may be legitimately classified as
"A.A. literature." There is no conflict between A.A. World Services,
Inc. (A.A.W.S. -- publishers of Conference-approved literature), and
central offices or intergroups - rather they complement each other. The
Conference does not _disapprove_ of such material.

"G.S.O. does develop some literature that does not have to be approved
by the Conference, such as service material, Guidelines and bulletins."
<end quote>

Thought this might be of interest to those who were following the
original thread.

Jim

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

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++++Message 4943. . . . . . . . . . . . Question about the circle, triangle
and other
From: ginnymatthew . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/1/2008 6:43:00 PM

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I just received a fourth edition 2001 Big Book
printed in Great Britain. The dust jacket and
the title page have the AA circle and triangle
logo that I thought was 'banned' from being
used back in 1996. How is it that they are
able to use this logo?

Also on the front page is a disclaimer which
states "No part of this publication may be
reproduced, stored in a retrievable system,
or transmitted in any form or by any means
without the prior permission of the publisher."

U.S. texts don't seem to have this disclaimer.
What is that about?

Gratefully,
Ginny

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++++Message 4944. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Conference Approved Literature
From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/4/2008 4:48:00 PM

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Hi Arthur,

I appreciate your memo on Conference-approved
literature. You have pointed out how rigorous
the approval process is and how difficult
it is to get final approval. I was probably
the right guy to work on Bill's bio because
my background was in writing for a corporation,
where you have to please everybody from the
assistant janitor to the CEO. But I was
replaced after two years!

Working on Bill's bio was, however, a wonder-
ful experience that gave me the opportunity
to interview people I never would have met
and it also enabled me to write three of my
Hazelden books.

What I'd really like to see, as an independent
author, is some effort to show that "outside"
literature can be just as useful as the
conference-approved materials (and might also
be necessary in seeking happy sobriety).

Some members apparently believe that a good
AA should read only conference-approved
literature, which is not the purpose of the
process. This viewpoint has become so fixed
in Toledo that people apologize if they quote
from a piece that is not conference-approved.
"Twenty-Four Hours a Day" used to be sold at
most groups here, but it was finally eliminated
by the self-appointed AA police (is my resent-
ment showing?).

You referred to the ill-starred attempt to
produce an AA history covering the period from
1955 on. I understand that this failed because
delegates were unhappy with the histories of
their own areas, for various reasons. The
project was finally shelved after spending a
small fortune producing a version.

It did get out somehow, and I have a copy for
occasional reference, but there is no approved
copy anywhere. I've concluded that AA will
never have an authorized history covering
this period; the job will be left to outside
writers by default.

Mel Barger

melb@accesstoledo.com
(melb at accesstoledo.com)

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++++Message 4945. . . . . . . . . . . . The Stools and Bottle Talk
From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/5/2008 3:12:00 PM

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I'd like to know if anyone has a script or a
tape of the stools and bottle talk? I'd like
to get a copy of it? and does anyone make or
know how to purchase the props for the talk?

shakey mike gwirtz

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++++Message 4946. . . . . . . . . . . . Doctor''s opinion
From: johnhartie . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/6/2008 9:25:00 AM

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My name is John Hartie, I'm doing the commit-
ment for the history lovers at Barking big
book study.

The question is, in the Doctor's Opinion page
xxx, was the classification of the alcoholic
put in order for any reason?

We are looking for facts and not anyone's
opinion, sorry if that sounds harsh.

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++++Message 4947. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Question about the circle,
triangle and other
From: DudleyDobinson@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/4/2008 5:39:00 PM

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From Dudley Dobinson and Phillip Baker

**************

From: DudleyDobinson <DudleyDobinson@aol.com>
(DudleyDobinson at aol.com)

Hi Ginny,

As I understand, it in the UK (and in Ireland
where I live and am in service) the copyright
of the Big Book and AA Circle/Triangle was not
lost and is still in force. You can verify this
by visiting either country's web site. Here
in Ireland we use the logo on all official AA
correspondence. However we do buy our literature
from New York whereas the UK prints some of
its own. I could go on, hopefully this will
answer your question.

In Service - Dudley

- - - -

From: Phillip Baker <phillipb@the12steps.net>
(phillipb at the12steps.net)

Different copyright laws in different countries.
The copyright for the 1st and 2nd edition were
allowed to lapse in the US only.

This does nto apply to other countries.

Also in the US the 3rd and 4th edition is under
copyright. But I guess since the first 164
pages are now public domain, that copyright
only applies to the new forwards, the personal
stories and the additional appendixes.

But basically there are different copyright
laws in different countries.

I assume the circle and triangle fell under
that as well. I would assume that the AA
office in the UK chose to keep using the
circle and triangle. They would be autonomous
from from the AA central office here in the
states around certain issues.

Blessed Be

Phillip
http://www.the12steps.net

- - - -

Original message from <ginnymatthew@yahoo.com>
(ginnymatthew at yahoo.com)

I just received a fourth edition 2001 Big Book
printed in Great Britain. The dust jacket and
the title page have the AA circle and triangle
logo that I thought was 'banned' from being
used back in 1996. How is it that they are
able to use this logo?

Also on the front page is a disclaimer which
states "No part of this publication may be
reproduced, stored in a retrievable system,
or transmitted in any form or by any means
without the prior permission of the publisher."

U.S. texts don't seem to have this disclaimer.
What is that about?

Gratefully,
Ginny

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++++Message 4948. . . . . . . . . . . . Courageous doctors: Dr. Talbot and
Dr. Zweig
From: Bob Schultz . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/1/2008 7:20:00 AM

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I think there were/are many courageous
physicians out there such as my sponsor.
He sobered up in 1970 in Denver while an
ophthalmologist and then came to be a dean
of a medical school in Texas. While he was
in charge the school adopted the study of
Alcoholism and presented as a curriculum.
There were four career teachers in that field
named from that med school. He got himself
associated with IDAA and then was able to
put together CME courses for health professi-
onals that included a gamut of subjects, but
the underlying theme was a study of addiction.

There were all night alkathons and a meeting
planned or put together quickly. Dr. Talbot
attended some of them as did many other well-
known treatment people and caregivers for
alcoholism care. He ran his tenure for nearly
eight years.

Whenever he got up to speak to this group, he
would always start out with; "let's cut to the
chase! My name is George and i am an alcoholic."
Sadly, the CME meetings stopped when he stepped
down.

George T virtually died in my arms in the late
90's in an extended care facility. In my eyes
he was a hero and one of the most courageous
men I ever knew. I can never show him enough
respect. There are countless numbers that
benefited from his stand and most will never
know they did. Just my 2 cents.

In sobriety

Bob S

- - - -

From the moderator: see also the story of
Dr. Zweig in Fort Wayne, Indiana.

http://hindsfoot.org/Nhome.html
http://hindsfoot.org/nftwayn1.html

"Dr. Zweig: The Good Physician"

[John S. in Fort Wayne (who writes the
anonymous John Barleycorn column about A.A.
in the Waynedale News) has given us the story
of Dr. Zweig, a physician who was not an
alcoholic himself, but who reached out to
help struggling alcoholics long before the
medical profession as a whole began to
recognize A.A. and the modern understanding of
alcoholism as a disease. Dr. Zweig's memory
is lovingly preserved in Fort Wayne A.A. as
one of their great heroes.]

The story Dr. Zweig told me before his 1994
death, was that after he was discharged from
the Army in 1945 he returned to Fort Wayne.
Doc was not an alcoholic himself, but he was
a deeply caring and compassionate man -- the
living example of the Good Physician -- who
became deeply involved in helping A.A. after
he saw what the program could accomplish.

Soon after returning to the Fort, he (Dr. Zweig)
ran into a former patient whom he had diagnosed
as a chronic alcoholic. Doc said it was a
consternation to him because the man was sober
now, and he was of the opinion, as was the
American Medical Association, that chronic
alcoholism was not treatable. Doc's conundrum:
"Did he incorrectly diagnose this man or was
there a cure?" Doc asked the man how long he'd
been sober and he said about two years.

Doc asked his patient how he'd gotten sober
and the man said, "I've been going to an AA
meeting in Huntington." That is a town of
around 16,000 population twenty miles or so
southwest of Fort Wayne. Doc was inducted into
the Army after the Japanese attacked Pearl
Harbor in December 1941 and was in the Army
from 1942 until 1945. If Doc's alcoholic
patient had his facts right that would've
put him at an A.A. meeting in Huntington
sometime in 1943.

Doc asked if he could go to the next meeting
with him, the man said yes, and when Doc
attended the A.A. meeting in Huntington he
found two other former patients for whom he
had also written "chronic alcoholic" on their
medical charts. They too were now sober.

Doc said he returned to the Fort and immedi-
ately talked with a judge and asked him to
take the next chronic alcoholic whom he was
going to sentence to Richmond State Hospital,
and assign custody of that person to him
instead. At that point, the judge was about
to sentence a woman named Street Car Sally
to Richmond, so he instead assigned her to
Doc's custody. Doc said the woman was covered
with every parasite known to man and that she
was turning tricks for six packs while living
in an abandoned street car.

Doc took Street Car Sally to Huntington and
those alcoholics' wives fed, bathed, and
clothed her, worked the steps with her, and
had her attend their meetings while Doc drove
to Huntington each day and gave her a vitamin
B12 shot. Three months later Doc took Sally
back before the same judge and when the judge
called her name he looked around the courtroom
and said to the bailiff, "She's not here." Doc
said to the judge, "Your honor, she's standing
right here!"

Sally was such a changed person, the judge
couldn't even recognize her anymore. In spite
of the fact that he had asked to be allowed to
do this experiment, Doc was equally amazed at
the difference that three months of A.A. had
made in her. He said, "John, I believed I had
witnessed a miracle of biblical proportions!"

Perhaps partly to protect his own medical
reputation at first, Doc worked with A.A. on
a totally anonymous basis from 1945 until 1955,
when the American Medical Association finally
recognized alcoholism as an illness. He decided
at that point that he did not want any kind of
personal credit anyway for the work he was
doing, and so he was careful to retain his
anonymity even after that. He had come to
understand how the A.A. way of life worked,
and had come to realize that the best kind of
service to others is the kind in which we seek
no thanks or rewards for ourselves at all.

Doc and some other local doctors attempted to
introduce A.A. into Russia via some other
medical doctors whom they met in Berlin, but
had no success at that time. It was going to
take a while to penetrate behind the Iron
Curtain, where the authorities were suspicious
of anything coming out of the western world,
and the government was officially atheistic.

A.A. was first established in Fort Wayne on
December 7, 1941, by C. L. Buckley and three
other alcoholics. The group he founded, which
was later called the Buckley Group, was the
first in Fort Wayne. But even in 1945, A.A.
was so little publicized that Dr. Zweig was
not aware that there was a group right there
in Fort Wayne. Since his former patients were
attending an A.A.meeting in Huntington, that
was the only A.A. group he knew about. So at
first he and his alcoholic patients were
driving the twenty plus miles to Huntington
instead of attending the Buckley group back
home in the Fort.

I have never been able to nail down where A.A.
in Huntington originally came from. Did it come
there from the Buckley Group, which had been
inspired by their contact with Indianapolis
A.A.? The old timers I've talked with so far,
said they were not certain, but suspected that
A.A. came to Huntington from an Evansville
newspaper editor at abut the same time the
Buckley Group came to Fort Wayne from Indy. I
suspect the old guys might be right, because
if the Huntington meeting had come from the
Fort, why would Doc's former alcoholic patients
have been driving all the way down to Huntington
at the beginning instead of just attending the
Buckley Group right at home? The Huntington
people would have told them right away about
the group they already had in Fort Wayne.

[Editor's note: Editor: This was probably
J. D. Holmes, the founder of A.A. in Indiana,
who worked for the Evansville newspaper, and
traveled all over Indiana founding AA groups
and bringing literature to new AA groups.]

- - - -

[On AA in Fort Wayne, Indiana, see also
http://hindsfoot.org/barruth.html
"A Nun's Story: Sister Ruth Finds God
in the A.A. Meetings," by John Barleycorn]

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++++Message 4949. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The Stools and Bottle Talk
From: Bob Schultz . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/6/2008 4:27:00 PM

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http://www.epinions.com/content_75295788676

Don't know if this is what you were after.
If not disregard .... Gads, I learn a lot
from this group!!!

bob s

----- Original Message -----
From: Shakey1aa@aol.com
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 3:12 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] The Stools and Bottle Talk

I'd like to know if anyone has a script or a
tape of the stools and bottle talk? I'd like
to get a copy of it? and does anyone make or
know how to purchase the props for the talk?

shakey mike gwirtz

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++++Message 4950. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: William James and Appendix
From: Arthur Sheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/1/2008 12:43:00 AM

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There are two major errors in the Spiritual
Experience Appendix in the Big Book.

The first error is that James never used the
term "educational variety" (nor did he use
the term "experiential").

The second error in the appendix is the
attribution of the "... contempt prior to
investigation" citation to Herbert Spencer.
It should be attributed to William Paley.

In 1901, Harvard professor William James
presented the "Gifford Lecture Series on
Natural Religion" at the University of
Aberdeen in Edinburgh, Scotland. His
lectures were published in 1902 in a
critically acclaimed book titled "The
Varieties of Religious Experience - A Study
In Human Nature."

James cited numerous examples of two styles
of spiritual transformation, one was gradual
and the other was sudden and dramatic. He did
not represent one form as superior to the
other.

32 years after its publication, a copy of
the book was given to Bill W during his last
stay in Towns Hospital. Bill found it deeply
inspiring by its revealing 3 key points for
recovery:

1st: the need for a complete defeat in a vital
area of life (or what we today call "hitting
bottom")

2nd: the admission of defeat (or what we today
call "acceptance") and

3rd: an appeal to a higher power for help
(or what we today call "surrender"). These
spiritual principles later became the basis
for Steps 1, 2 and 3.

In March 1941, almost two years after the
first printing of the first edition Big Book,
the wording of Step 12 was changed in the
second printing. The term "spiritual experience"
was changed to "spiritual awakening" and the
term "as the result of these steps" was changed
to "as the result of those steps."

An appendix titled "Spiritual Experience" was
added. Many members thought they had to have
a sudden, spectacular spiritual experience
similar to the one Bill had in Towns Hospital.
The appendix emphasized that most spiritual
experiences developed slowly over time and
were of the "educational variety."

As a follow on to James' characterization of
conversion experiences it is useful to download
either a searchable PDF or text file version
of the book and then do a string search using
either "sudden" or "gradual." You'll discover
repeated instances where both are described
as different means to the same end with the
end result being what is important - not how
you got there.

Cheers
Arthur

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of rdg1649
Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 6:53 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] William James and Appendix

It is true that James used the term experiental
rather than educational as Bill's appendix to
the Big Book states.

However, it has always struck me that there
is a far greater problem with this appendix.
Reading it I get the impression that Bill is
implying that it is o.k. if a member's
spiritual experience is not of the 'bolt of
lightning' type as he describes his.

In fact, having read James, it is my
impression that James is saying the exact
opposite: That the most lasting and deep
are experiential and not revival type
surges of emotion as Bill describes his.

Seems to me that Bill acurately reports
that James noted a 'variety' of religious
experiences but not with the same emphasis/
orientation that Bill implies.

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++++Message 4951. . . . . . . . . . . . AA history from 1955 to the present
From: James Bliss . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/6/2008 3:56:00 PM

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Below is a brief history of the attempt to
publish the history from 1955 to the present.
It reflects the cost and the process which
this went through before it was finally
discarded. I have also provided some specula-
tion about who the various writers might have
been, drawing that information from a few
different resources.

Hopefully this will be of interest to the
members of this group.

The time line of events was:

1988 – writer 1 prepared a manuscript which
was provided to the Trustees Literature
Committee. They felt it was not appropriate.
A second writer was selected. He was unable
to meet the deadlines needed by AAWS and was
asked to withdraw from the project.

1991 – writer 3 was selected. She had written
“Pass It On” and began work. A draft she
prepared was reviewed by the Trustees
Literature Committee and to ‘readers’ with
special expertise. They provided suggestions
and comments which were incorporated.

1992 - the Conference Literature Committee
received the ‘final’ manuscript from writer 3

1993 – Although there was some unhappiness
regarding the manuscript, it was forwarded on
to the 1992 Conference Literature Committee.
Contractual differences arose between the
author and AAWS and writer 3 resigned

1993 – writer 4 was hired to clear up certain
sections and write a new one. This fairly
complete manuscript was forwarded to the 1993
Conference Literature Committee who recommended
the project be deferred for 2 years so that a
new group from AA could look at it with fresh
ideas.

The project died at this time.

The following was a review of the history as
provided by AAWS:

1985 – the Conference Literature Committee
formed a subcommittee to develop an outline
for an in depth history from 1955 – 1985
similar to “A.A. Comes of Age”

1986 – An outline for a definitive history
was prepared and forwarded to the Conference
Literature Committee for consideration. The
Conference Literature Committee recommended
that a definitive book on A.A. history from
1955 – 1985 be prepared and presented to the
1987 Conference.

1987 – The committee reviewed the progress
report on the first 13 rough chapters. It was
indicated that the first draft manuscript to
included 26 chapters of approximately 700
pages would be ready by the January 1988
deadline.

1988 – The committee reviewed the cover letter
and table of contents of the first draft
manuscript of the A.A. History Book and
recommended that it be referred to the
Conference Literature Committee. The 1988
Conference recommended that work continue on
the A.A. History Book.

Following the Conference, the committee
affirmed:

- the Trustees Literature Committee will
assume responsibility for this project through
a subcommittee

- the publications director will be asked to
find a writer whose specialty is history and
that the current writer will continue the
effort of obtaining missing area histories

- it was the consensus of the committee that
the section on area histories should be treated
as a separate archival project

- it was suggested that the Conference
Literature Committee be asked for suggestions
with regard to how the material should be
handled

1989 – The area histories were separated from
the first manuscript and forwarded to the
Archives Committee on the recommendation of
the 1989 Conference Literature Committee

Writers experienced in producing historical
reviews were asked to submit outlines for the
subcommittee prior to the Conference so that
a status report could be prepared for the
Conference Literature Committee. The sub-
committee selected a writer and a timetable
with estimated completion in January, 1991.
The Conference Literature Committee recommended
that the A.A. History from 1955 forwarded
focusing on major events and developments
since the co-founders turned A.A. over to
the Fellowship, rather than centering on the
beginnings of A.A. and histories of the 91
areas of the U.S. and Canada be continued.

1990 – the subcommittee’s review of the outline
and draft chapters led to a re-emphasis of the
guidelines along with the suggestion for
stronger editorial control, and recommended
that the summary of progress be provided to
the Conference Literature Committee, along
with the reaffirmation that draft copies not
be circulated in advance of the completion
of the manuscript. In late February the sub-
committee and author part and the search for
a replacement was undertaken. An experienced
writer, with broad background with A.A.
literature was subsequently hired). The
Conference Literature Committee recommended
that the project continue to completion. This
became a Conference Action.

1991 – the subcommittee reported that the
project was on schedule with the manuscript
to be delivered by March, 1992.

1992 – The Trustees Literature Committee
recommended that the A.A. History Book be
forwarded to the Conference Literature Commit-
tee. The Conference Literature Committee
recommended that the manuscript be returned
to the 1992 Conference Literature Committee
and then forwarded to the 1993 Conference
Literature Committee.

1993 – A.A. History Book completed draft
manuscript was forwarded to the Conference
Literature Committee which recommended that
the project be deferred for 2 years so that
a new team of A.A. servants can look at the
history book with fresh ideas.

1996 – Trustees Literature Committee discussed
and did not approve a request to revive the
History Book project. Conference Literature
Committee recommendation NOT adopted by the
Conference: “That the manuscript originally
commissioned as a history book be relabeled
“collected observations of Alcoholics Anonymous”
and that it be placed in the Archives and made
available for purchase at a cost upon request
after editing for anonymity and various speci-
fic concerns relating to accuracy of content
and style.

1997 – The Trustees Literature Committee
discussed requests regarding the draft of
the A.A. History Book written by <writer 3
from the first description above> (and others)
and agreed that it not be made available
in the Archives or anywhere else since it
runs the risk of becoming ‘unofficial’ A.A.
literature and could involve legal problems.

1998 – the Trustees Literature Committee
forwarded to the Conference Literature
Committee an area request that a second
history book be developed. The Conference
Literature Committee agreed there was no
compelling need to develop this project.

Expenses:

Paid 86 – 92

224,000
117,000
_______

341,000 (sub total)

1992 - 5,000

1992 - 8,000

1993 - 26,000
_______

380,000 (total)

From some information I was provided (from
Glenn C. on this list) and the documentation
which I have, I am speculating:

Writer 1 was Bob Pearsons - this is pure
speculation but appears to be well founded
from the follow up email. The alternative is
that he is writer 2 since the group history
was not the focus of his material and writer 1
appeared to focus more on the history of the
groups rather that AAWS.

Writer 2 was Charles Hanson – this is pure
speculation – perhaps he was writer 1 if
his material was more focused on the groups
than AAWS.

Writer 3 was Catherine Noren – from my
documentation

Writer 4 - ???? - this appears to be a fairly
minor role, one of cleaning up and not adding
much substantive content.

- - - -

Message 4942 from <ArtSheehan@msn.com>
(ArtSheehan at msn.com) said:

"The attempt to write an AA history from 1955
had to be abandoned. I suspect Conference
approval for any type of historical work would
be one heck of a major challenge (and probably
rightfully so)."

- - - -

Message 4944 from "Mel Barger"
<melb@accesstoledo.com>
(melb at accesstoledo.com) said:

"You referred to the ill-starred attempt to
produce an AA history covering the period from
1955 on. I understand that this failed because
delegates were unhappy with the histories of
their own areas, for various reasons. The
project was finally shelved after spending a
small fortune producing a version. It
did get out somehow, and I have a copy for
occasional reference, but there is no approved
copy anywhere. I've concluded that AA will
never have an authorized history covering
this period; the job will be left to outside
writers by default."

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++++Message 4952. . . . . . . . . . . . Conf-approv literature & AA history
from 1955
From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/7/2008 5:22:00 AM

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I guess Conference-approved means that that
literature carries the imprimatur, or at
least endorsement, of the Fellowship's
collective group conscience; but as the
Big Book itself reminds us, "There are many
helpful books also. Suggestions about these
may be obtained from one's priest, minister
or rabbi." And as an open-minded agnostic,
I would add - or from Amazon or a library!

- - - -

From: pvttimt@aol.com
(pvttimt at aol.com)

If one studies history a bit, one begins to
see that any "true history" is simply the
aggregate experience of all who lived through
the events of interest. I'm thinking that
you may be doing a huge service to the
fellowship by compiling good primary reference
material for future historians to sift once
the old-timers that cause all the controversy
are gone from the scene! It's the old "blind
men describing the elephant" problem. No
"history" is ever complete, or completely
"true," whatever that is supposed to mean.

Best regards. Tim T., an alky

- - - -

From: joseph fischer <joehenryfish@yahoo.com>
(joehenryfish at yahoo.com)

Ernest Kurtz who wrote the book Not God was
given access to the archives.

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++++Message 4953. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Significant April Dates in A.A.
History
From: Arthur Sheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/7/2008 5:46:00 PM

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From Arthur Sheehan, Tom Hickcox, and John Lee:

- - - -

From: "Arthur Sheehan" <ArtSheehan@msn.com>
(ArtSheehan at msn.com)

Last December I requested that timelines or
date listings be validated and cross-referenced
to corroborating sources. Otherwise there is
risk in distributing misinformation instead
of factual information. There are too many of
these types of lists already in circulation
that unfortunately are interpreted as authori-
tative. The timeline distributed for April
has a number of errors for the dates shown
below [corrections are in brackets - I didn't
check every entry so there may be more]:

April 1, 1939 - Publication date of Alcoholics
Anonymous, AA's Big Book.

[The copyright application states a publication
date of April 10, 1939.]

April 1, 1940 - Larry J. of Houston, wrote
"The Texas Prayer", used to open AA meetings
in Texas.

[It was written in March 1940 with the title
"A.A. Prayer" not "The Texas Prayer." Outside
of Houston there is no evidence of widespread
usage to "open AA meetings in Texas"]

April 11, 1938 - The Alcoholic Foundation
formed as a trusteeship for A.A. (sometimes
reported as May 1938).

[The trust indenture document of the Alcoholic
Foundation marks its inception as August 5,
1938. Its first meeting was on August 11, 1938]

April 11, 1941 - Bill and Lois finally found
a home, Stepping Stones in New Bedford.

[The city is Bedford Hills, NY. The initial
name they gave their home was "Bill-Lo's Break"
and later renamed it "Stepping Stones." New
Bedford is in Massachusetts. That is where
Bill went through part of his military training
and where he had his first drink]

April 22, 1940 - Bill and Hank transfer
their Works Publishing stock to the Alcoholic
Foundation.

[The letter signed by Bill and Hank transfer-
ring the stock is dated April 24, 1940. It
also included a requirement that Dr Bob and
his wife Anne receive a 10% royalty on Big
Book sales for life]

April 23, 1940 - Dr. Bob wrote the Trustees to
refuse Big Book royalties, but Bill W insisted
that Dr. Bob and Anne receive them.

[This can be misleading as stated (see page
269 in "Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers").
Dr Bob accepted royalties from Big Book sales
all his life. He started infrequently receiving
royalties in 1940 (and shared them with Bill).
Bill started receiving royalties shortly after
the outbreak of World War II]

April 25, 1951 - AA's first General Service
Conference was held.

[It was held at the Hotel Commodore, New
York City on April 20-21-22, 1951]

I make a lot of errors with dates and am
nothing near perfect, so I'm not trying to
do a putdown of the submitter. However, a
forum like AAHistoryLovers should be propa-
gating facts not misinformation. I would
again like to request that timelines not be
distributed in AAHistoryLovers unless they
contain references corroborating the dates
and events stated.

Arthur

- - - -

From: Tom Hickcox <cometkazie1@cox.net>
(cometkazie1 at cox.net)

At 23:34 3/31/2008 , you wrote:

>April 11, 1941 - Bill and Lois finally found
>a home, Stepping Stones in New Bedford.

I believe we went round and round with this
a couple of years ago. There is no such place
as New Bedford, New York. Stepping Stones is
in Bedford Hills or Bedford. See what the
address is and who they pay local taxes to.
In that area one usually pays taxes to the
township the property is located within.

>April 16, 1940 - A sober Rollie H. catches
>the only opening day no-hitter in baseball
>history since 1909.

It would be interesting to have the teams and
the score.

>April 16, 1973 - Dr. Jack Norris presented
>President Nixon with the one millionth copy
>of the Big Book. April 19, 1940 - The first
>AA group in Little Rock, Arkansas, was
>formed. First 'mail order' group.

Was the Little Rock Group the mail order group?

>April 24, 1989 - Dr. Leonard Strong died.

We might mention that he was Lois' brother.
At least I think he was.

>April 25, 1939 - Morgan R interviewed on
>Gabriel Heatter radio show.
>April 25, 1951 - AA's first General Service
>Conference was held.

Where?

Tommy

- - - -

From: John Lee <johnlawlee@yahoo.com>
(johnlawlee at yahoo.com)

April 11, 1941: Bill and Lois' address was
Bedford Hills, not New Bedford. Stepping Stones
is actually located in Katonah, New York, not
Bedford Hills [if you ever choose to visit].

John Lee

- - - -

From the moderator: please see the next
message, number 4954, on Bedford, Bedford
Hills, and Katonah. The TOWN is named
Bedford.

Katonah is a hamlet at the north town line.
Bedford Hills is an unincorporated hamlet
also contained within the Town of Bedford.

ALL of the Town of Bedford put together only
has a population of 18,133. This is NOT a
big, hairy deal. Just ask one of the locals
after you get there where 62 Oak Road is,
O.K. ????

Even the official Stepping Stones website
can't decide whether Bill and Lois' place
ought better be described as being in "Bedford
Hills" or in "Katonah," so they have it one
way on one page, and the other way on another.

Glenn C.

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of chesbayman56
Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2008 12:35 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Significant April Dates in A.A. History

April 1935 - Dr. Silkworth told Bill to quit preaching at drunks &
tell them of obsession & allergy.
April 1950 - Saturday Evening Post article "The Drunkard's Best
Friend" by Jack Alexander.
April 1958 - The word "honest" dropped from AA Preamble, "an honest
desire to stop drinking".
April 1966 - Change in ratio of trustees of the General Service
Board; now two thirds (majority) are alcoholic.
April 1970 - GSO moved to 468 Park Ave. South, NYC.
April 1, 1939 - Publication date of Alcoholics Anonymous, AA's Big
Book.
April 1, 1940 - Larry J. of Houston, wrote "The Texas Prayer", used
to open AA meetings in Texas.
April 1, 1966 - Sister Ignatia died.
April 2, 1966 - Harry Tiebout, M.D. died.
April 3, 1941 - First AA meeting held in Florida.
April 3, 1960 - Fr. Ed Dowling, S.J., died. He was Bill
W's "spiritual sponsor."
April 7, 1941 - Ruth Hock reported there were 1,500 letters asking
for help as a result of the Saturday Evening Post Article by Jack
Alexander.
April 10, 1939 - The first ten copies of the Big Book arrived at the
office Bill and Hank P shared.
April 11, 1938 - The Alcoholic Foundation formed as a trusteeship for
A.A. (sometimes reported as May 1938)
April 11, 1941 - Bill and Lois finally found a home, Stepping Stones
in New Bedford.
April 16, 1940 - A sober Rollie H. catches the only opening day no-
hitter in baseball history since 1909.
April 16, 1973 - Dr. Jack Norris presented President Nixon with the
one millionth copy of the Big Book.
April 19, 1940 - The first AA group in Little Rock, Arkansas, was
formed. First 'mail order' group.
April 19, 1941 - The first AA group in the State of Washington was
formed in Seattle.
April 22, 1940 - Bill and Hank transfer their Works Publishing stock
to the Alcoholic Foundation.
April 23, 1940 - Dr. Bob wrote the Trustees to refuse Big Book
royalties, but Bill W insisted that Dr. Bob and Anne receive them.
April 24, 1940 - The first AA pamphlet, "AA", was published.
April 24, 1989 - Dr. Leonard Strong died.
April 25, 1939 - Morgan R interviewed on Gabriel Heatter radio show.
April 25, 1951 - AA's first General Service Conference was held.
April 26 or May 1, 1939 - Bank forecloses on 182 Clinton Street.
April 30, 1989 - Film "My Name is Bill W." a Hallmark presentation
was broadcast on ABC TV.

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++++Message 4954. . . . . . . . . . . . Stepping Stones: Bedford, Bedford
Hills, and Katonah
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/11/2008 5:00:00 PM

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Where is Stepping Stones located, Bill and
Lois Wilson's home?

- - - -

It is not in "New Bedford." There are five
towns by this name in the United States, but
none of them are in the right state:

New Bedford, Massachusetts, the most populous
New Bedford, Illinois
New Bedford, New Jersey
New Bedford, Ohio
New Bedford, Pennsylvania

- - - -

The TOWN in New York state is named Bedford.

Katonah is a hamlet contained within the
Town of Bedford, located at the north town
line.

Bedford Hills is an unincorporated hamlet
also contained within the Town of Bedford.

ALL of the Town of Bedford put together only
has a population of 18,133.

Even the official Stepping Stones website
can't decide whether Bill and Lois' place
ought better be described as being in
"Bedford Hills" or in "Katonah," so they
have it one way on one page, and the other
way on another.

- - - -

Stepping Stones: The Historic Home of Bill
and Lois Wilson

http://www.steppingstones.org/ says:

"Located 45 minutes north of NYC by car
and 1 hour by train, in Bedford Hills, NY"

- - - -

http://www.steppingstones.org/visiting.html says:

"62 Oak Road, Katonah, New York 10536"

- - - -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katonah,_New_York says:

"Katonah, New York is one of three
unincorporated hamlets within the town
of Bedford, Westchester County."

"Katonah is often styled as a 'village' by
its residents. For example, its library is
called the Katonah Village Library. However,
'village' has a legal meaning in New York.
Katonah is not a village, but merely a hamlet,
a non-legally-defined section of a town.
Katonah does have its own ZIP code, 10536,
and a Metro-North station. It is also part of
the Katonah-Lewisboro school district."

- - - -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bedford_Hills,_New_York says:

"Bedford Hills is an unincorporated hamlet
in the Town of Bedford, New York. When the
railroad was built in 1847, Bedford Hills was
known as Bedford Station. Bedford Hills extends
from a business center at the railroad station
to farms and estates, eastward along Harris,
Babbitt and Bedford Center Roads and south
along the Route 117 business corridor up to
Mt. Kisco. Bedford Hills is the seat of
government of the Town of Bedford."

- - - -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bedford_%28town%29%2C_New_York says:

"Bedford is a town in Westchester County,
New York, USA. The population was 18,133 at
the 2000 census. The Town of Bedford is in
the central part of the county."

"Communities and locations in Bedford:
Bedford Village -- A hamlet in the southeast
part of the town, also known as Bedford.

Bedford Hills -- A hamlet in the Cross River
Reservoir -- A reservoir in the northern
portion of the town.

Katonah -- A hamlet at the north town line.

Bedford Corners -- A very small hamlet
neighboring larger town Mount Kisco."

Among the famous people who have lived there are:

"William G. Wilson, co-founder of Alcoholics
Anonymous, resident of Bedford, 1941-1971.
Lois B. Wilson, co-founder of Al-Anon family
groups, resident of Bedford, 1941-1988."

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++++Message 4955. . . . . . . . . . . . AA History before or after 1955
From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/10/2008 9:26:00 AM

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Some years ago (1997-8) a proposal was made
to the Trustees for a History of AA (to be
ready in 2010), but from the beginning (1935)
not from 1955.

It was, of course, not accepted. But the
terms of that proposal point up a problem.

AA COMES OF AGE does present pieces of a
history 1935-1955 from Bill's point of view.
Ernie's NOT GOD and the Barry Leach-Jack
Norris piece in Begleiter's monumental
multi-volume set do provide historical
materials up to 1977-79 (and then Ernie's
later edition into the early 1990s).

But huge amounts of local and regional
historical work are needed (over the entire
period from 1935 at least)-- and an acceptable
over-all framework needs to be set -- and we
need institutional history especially for more
recent years -- before anything like a full
history of AA from 1935 can be written (and
that by a professional historian who would
ideally also be a member of AA).

My own view, for what it's worth, is that we
cannot just begin in 1955, as though all that
had to be said for the time to 1955 had been
said in AA COMES OF AGE.

I think of two volumes for the history thus
far THE CHARISMATIC PERIOD: FROM THE BEGINNING
TO BILL'S DEATH (1934-1971) and THE PERIOD OF
ROUTINE: FROM BILL'S DEATH TO THE PRESENT
(1971-2008), and the two volumes would be
very different as the history is very
different -- but I also don't see it
happening.

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++++Message 4956. . . . . . . . . . . . Origin of the term "Character
Defect"
From: jeffyour . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/10/2008 9:46:00 AM

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Good morning, all.

A question came up at my home group last week
and I promised to do a little digging to come
up with an 'informed' answer. Who better to
ask than all of you?

I've run a cursory search of the archives
of this discussion board and found nothing
that addresses the historical origin of the
term "Character Defects". There is nothing
as rigorous as the kind of scholarly exposure
that "contempt prior to investigation" has
received.

In message 2947:

In a July 1953 Grapevine article titled "A
Fragment of History - the Origin of the 12
Steps" Bill W identified the Oxford Group as
one of the 3 main channels of inspiration for
AA's 12 Steps. Bill identified the other 2
main channels of inspiration for the 12 Steps
as William James and Dr Silkworth.

In "AA Comes of Age" (pg 39) Bill wrote
"Early AA got its ideas of self-examination,
acknowledgment of character defects,
restitution for harm done, and working with
others straight from the Oxford Groups and
directly from Sam Shoemaker, their former
leader in America, and from nowhere else."

and in message 2460:

"From 1935 to 1948, The Upper Room was read
every morning by more AAs than any other
meditational work. Although the Oxford Group
had the greatest influence on the development
of early A.A. at the very beginning, The
Upper Room was clearly the second greatest
influence on early A.A. spirituality. You
can see the effect of ideas drawn from The
Upper Room throughout the first 164 pages of
the Big Book.

"For a quick look at the kinds of things the
Upper Room talked about, see
<http://hindsfoot.org/UpRm1.html>, which
gives selections from the readings in some
of the issues of The Upper Room published
in 1938 and 1939, along with commentary
explaining some of the ideas which A.A. drew
from this source: an important part of their
understanding of what was meant by character
and character defects, the emphasis on
happiness as an inside job, the idea of the
Divine Light within, and warnings against
being too imprisoned by doctrines..."

Is this a term directly from William James?
or from Oxford Group literature (and I wonder
where THEY got it?)

thx

In grateful service,

Jeffrey A. Your
Delegate
Area 54, Panel 57
Northeast Ohio General Service

216_691_0917 home

216_397_4244 work

216_397_1803 fax

216_496_7594 cell

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++++Message 4957. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA history from 1955 to the
present
From: David . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/10/2008 9:02:00 PM

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$384,000 was expended on a book which was
never completed or allowed to be completed.
The Trustees Literature Committee then
"agreed that it not be made available in the
Archives or anywhere else since it runs the
risk of becoming `unofficial' A.A.literature
and could involve legal problems."

Questions:

1. Have other pieces of literature, involving
over a quarter of a million dollars in
expenditures, been banned from the archives
and kept secret?

2. Did the Trustees Literature Committee
specifically cite the actual"legal problems"
it was concerned about? What were they?

3. Did the Trustees Literature Committee
explain what risk they were referring to
when speaking of "unofficial" AA literature?

4. Does anyone know how whether or not
separate service groups like the Trustees
Literature Committee regularly dictated what
another service group, like the Archives,
could do or could not do? In other words ...
is there a hierarchy of service groups?

It seems the Trustees Literature Committee
not only made the decision to abandon a
project in which it already had made a
sizable investment, it also "buried" all
materials generated from that outlay of
$384,000. I can see the former as part of
their role, but it seems over-reaching on
the latter. Did not Archives have a point
of view? What process resolves inherent
conflicts like this? Thanks!

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, James Bliss <james.bliss@...>
wrote:
>
> Below is a brief history of the attempt to
> publish the history from 1955 to the present.
> It reflects the cost and the process which
> this went through before it was finally
> discarded. I have also provided some specula-
> tion about who the various writers might have
> been, drawing that information from a few
> different resources.
>
> Hopefully this will be of interest to the
> members of this group.
>
> The time line of events was:
>
> 1988 – writer 1 prepared a manuscript which
> was provided to the Trustees Literature
> Committee. They felt it was not appropriate.
> A second writer was selected. He was unable
> to meet the deadlines needed by AAWS and was
> asked to withdraw from the project.
>
> 1991 – writer 3 was selected. She had written
> "Pass It On" and began work. A draft she
> prepared was reviewed by the Trustees
> Literature Committee and to `readers' with
> special expertise. They provided suggestions
> and comments which were incorporated.
>
> 1992 - the Conference Literature Committee
> received the `final' manuscript from writer 3
>
> 1993 – Although there was some unhappiness
> regarding the manuscript, it was forwarded on
> to the 1992 Conference Literature Committee.
> Contractual differences arose between the
> author and AAWS and writer 3 resigned
>
> 1993 – writer 4 was hired to clear up certain
> sections and write a new one. This fairly
> complete manuscript was forwarded to the 1993
> Conference Literature Committee who recommended
> the project be deferred for 2 years so that a
> new group from AA could look at it with fresh
> ideas.
>
> The project died at this time.
>
> The following was a review of the history as
> provided by AAWS:
>
> 1985 – the Conference Literature Committee
> formed a subcommittee to develop an outline
> for an in depth history from 1955 – 1985
> similar to "A.A. Comes of Age"
>
> 1986 – An outline for a definitive history
> was prepared and forwarded to the Conference
> Literature Committee for consideration. The
> Conference Literature Committee recommended
> that a definitive book on A.A. history from
> 1955 – 1985 be prepared and presented to the
> 1987 Conference.
>
> 1987 – The committee reviewed the progress
> report on the first 13 rough chapters. It was
> indicated that the first draft manuscript to
> included 26 chapters of approximately 700
> pages would be ready by the January 1988
> deadline.
>
> 1988 – The committee reviewed the cover letter
> and table of contents of the first draft
> manuscript of the A.A. History Book and
> recommended that it be referred to the
> Conference Literature Committee. The 1988
> Conference recommended that work continue on
> the A.A. History Book.
>
> Following the Conference, the committee
> affirmed:
>
> - the Trustees Literature Committee will
> assume responsibility for this project through
> a subcommittee
>
> - the publications director will be asked to
> find a writer whose specialty is history and
> that the current writer will continue the
> effort of obtaining missing area histories
>
> - it was the consensus of the committee that
> the section on area histories should be treated
> as a separate archival project
>
> - it was suggested that the Conference
> Literature Committee be asked for suggestions
> with regard to how the material should be
> handled
>
> 1989 – The area histories were separated from
> the first manuscript and forwarded to the
> Archives Committee on the recommendation of
> the 1989 Conference Literature Committee
>
> Writers experienced in producing historical
> reviews were asked to submit outlines for the
> subcommittee prior to the Conference so that
> a status report could be prepared for the
> Conference Literature Committee. The sub-
> committee selected a writer and a timetable
> with estimated completion in January, 1991.
> The Conference Literature Committee recommended
> that the A.A. History from 1955 forwarded
> focusing on major events and developments
> since the co-founders turned A.A. over to
> the Fellowship, rather than centering on the
> beginnings of A.A. and histories of the 91
> areas of the U.S. and Canada be continued.
>
> 1990 – the subcommittee's review of the outline
> and draft chapters led to a re-emphasis of the
> guidelines along with the suggestion for
> stronger editorial control, and recommended
> that the summary of progress be provided to
> the Conference Literature Committee, along
> with the reaffirmation that draft copies not
> be circulated in advance of the completion
> of the manuscript. In late February the sub-
> committee and author part and the search for
> a replacement was undertaken. An experienced
> writer, with broad background with A.A.
> literature was subsequently hired). The
> Conference Literature Committee recommended
> that the project continue to completion. This
> became a Conference Action.
>
> 1991 – the subcommittee reported that the
> project was on schedule with the manuscript
> to be delivered by March, 1992.
>
> 1992 – The Trustees Literature Committee
> recommended that the A.A. History Book be
> forwarded to the Conference Literature Commit-
> tee. The Conference Literature Committee
> recommended that the manuscript be returned
> to the 1992 Conference Literature Committee
> and then forwarded to the 1993 Conference
> Literature Committee.
>
> 1993 – A.A. History Book completed draft
> manuscript was forwarded to the Conference
> Literature Committee which recommended that
> the project be deferred for 2 years so that
> a new team of A.A. servants can look at the
> history book with fresh ideas.
>
> 1996 – Trustees Literature Committee discussed
> and did not approve a request to revive the
> History Book project. Conference Literature
> Committee recommendation NOT adopted by the
> Conference: "That the manuscript originally
> commissioned as a history book be relabeled
> "collected observations of Alcoholics Anonymous"
> and that it be placed in the Archives and made
> available for purchase at a cost upon request
> after editing for anonymity and various speci-
> fic concerns relating to accuracy of content
> and style.
>
> 1997 – The Trustees Literature Committee
> discussed requests regarding the draft of
> the A.A. History Book written by <writer 3
> from the first description above> (and others)
> and agreed that it not be made available
> in the Archives or anywhere else since it
> runs the risk of becoming `unofficial' A.A.
> literature and could involve legal problems.
>
> 1998 – the Trustees Literature Committee
> forwarded to the Conference Literature
> Committee an area request that a second
> history book be developed. The Conference
> Literature Committee agreed there was no
> compelling need to develop this project.
>
> Expenses:
>
> Paid 86 – 92
>
> 224,000
> 117,000
> _______
>
> 341,000 (sub total)
>
> 1992 - 5,000
>
> 1992 - 8,000
>
> 1993 - 26,000
> _______
>
> 380,000 (total)
>
> From some information I was provided (from
> Glenn C. on this list) and the documentation
> which I have, I am speculating:
>
> Writer 1 was Bob Pearsons - this is pure
> speculation but appears to be well founded
> from the follow up email. The alternative is
> that he is writer 2 since the group history
> was not the focus of his material and writer 1
> appeared to focus more on the history of the
> groups rather that AAWS.
>
> Writer 2 was Charles Hanson – this is pure
> speculation – perhaps he was writer 1 if
> his material was more focused on the groups
> than AAWS.
>
> Writer 3 was Catherine Noren – from my
> documentation
>
> Writer 4 - ???? - this appears to be a fairly
> minor role, one of cleaning up and not adding
> much substantive content.
>
> - - - -
>
> Message 4942 from ArtSheehan@...
> (ArtSheehan at msn.com) said:
>
> "The attempt to write an AA history from 1955
> had to be abandoned. I suspect Conference
> approval for any type of historical work would
> be one heck of a major challenge (and probably
> rightfully so)."
>
> - - - -
>
> Message 4944 from "Mel Barger"
> melb@...
> (melb at accesstoledo.com) said:
>
> "You referred to the ill-starred attempt to
> produce an AA history covering the period from
> 1955 on. I understand that this failed because
> delegates were unhappy with the histories of
> their own areas, for various reasons. The
> project was finally shelved after spending a
> small fortune producing a version. It
> did get out somehow, and I have a copy for
> occasional reference, but there is no approved
> copy anywhere. I've concluded that AA will
> never have an authorized history covering
> this period; the job will be left to outside
> writers by default."
>

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++++Message 4958. . . . . . . . . . . . Opening Day No-Hitter April 16 1940
From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/11/2008 5:27:00 PM

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Cleveland Indians vs. Chicago White Sox,
WP Bob Feller LP Edgar Smith. Score 1-0.

Only run was batted in by Catcher Rollie
Hemsley.

An autographed game ball was given by Rollie
to Dr. Bob and I believe is in the collection
at Brown. I believe Bob Feller may still be
alive at 89 or so -- I don't know if anyone
has approached him for his recollections of
Rollie, or if indeed they exist already.

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++++Message 4959. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Conf-approv literature & AA
history from 1955
From: Al Welch . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/10/2008 8:53:00 AM

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From Al Welch and junebug0619

- - - -

From: "Al Welch" <welch@a-1associates.com>
(welch at a-1associates.com)

Another definition of Conference-approved is
that it is owned by, printed by and distributed
only by the GSO in New York City. (and I don't
necessarily think that is a bad thing - it
just sounds that way!)

- - - -

From: junebug0619@aol.com
(junebug0619 at aol.com)

I agree that there are many helpful books
outside the realm of AA. Alcoholics Anonymous
is a text book for sobriety. I need info for
the heart and soul.

----- Original Message -----
From: "jenny andrews" <jennylaurie1@hotmail.com>
To: <aahistorylovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 5:22 AM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Conf-approv literature & AA history from 1955

>I guess Conference-approved means that that
> literature carries the imprimatur, or at
> least endorsement, of the Fellowship's
> collective group conscience; but as the
> Big Book itself reminds us, "There are many
> helpful books also. Suggestions about these
> may be obtained from one's priest, minister
> or rabbi." And as an open-minded agnostic,
> I would add - or from Amazon or a library!

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++++Message 4960. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Opening Day No-Hitter April 16

1940
From: aalogsdon@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/11/2008 4:01:00 PM

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From Jerry Logsdon and Buck R.

- - - -

From Jerry Logsdon <aalogsdon@aol.com>
(aalogsdon at aol.com)

I have talked to Bob Feller on three different
occasions about Rollie Hemsley and had him
sign baseballs IN MEMORY OF ROLLIE HEMSLEY.
I have a large collection of Hemsley photos
and some of these Feller identified for me and
recalled incidents about the photographs. He
was still sharp and knows a great deal about
Hemsley.

He (Feller) will be appearing in person at his
museum in Van Meter, Iowa on Saturday, June 21.
The phone number there is 515_996_2806.

I have been communicating with a gentleman who
is in the process of writing a book regarding
Hemsley and have shared information with him.
I have four autographed baseballs from Hemsley
and more items.

Jerry Logsdon
714_321_7665

- - - -

From: Buck R. = Jonathan Rose
<jbuckrose1@mac.com> (jbuckrose1 at mac.com)

In his book "Now Pitching, Bob Feller: A
Baseball Memoir", Feller makes numerous
mention of Rollie Hemsley. Feller, by the
way, is the second oldest living Baseball
Hall of Famer.

On page 16 he talks about "Rollickin'
Rollie Hemsley and his alcohol-inspired
Superman feats like tip-toeing along hotel
ledges ten floors above downtown streets";

On page 73: "But I've always had enormous
respect for Rollie Hemsley because he did
something that the rest of us might not have
been strong enough to do. Cy Slapnicka
convinced Rollie to join Alcoholics Anonymous
after he got off to such a rocky start with
us in 1938. As an incentive, Slap gave a
large diamond ring to Rollie's daughter, the
person who meant more to him than anyone else
in the world. It worked. Rollie took the
pledge. He drank about a case of Cokes a day
for a while because he needed that sugar that
he wasn't getting from booze any more, but he
never went back to the hard stuff."

(Note: Cy Slapnicka was the Indians' General
Manager)

in fellowship,
Buck R.

- - - -

From the moderator:

Rollie Hemsley = Ralston Burdett Hemsley

photo at
http://www.aabibliography.com/aahtml3/rollynews.jpg

photo and part of his story at
http://members.tripod.com/bb_catchers/catchers/hemsley.htm

photo and brief story at
http://www.baseballlibrary.com/ballplayers/player.php?name=Rollie_Hemsley_19
07

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++++Message 4961. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Conf-approv literature & AA
history from 1955
From: Arthur Sheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/12/2008 1:44:00 AM

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Hi Al

GSO does not have an ownership role. I don't
mean to split hairs but at times the acronym
"GSO" is used when the correct acronym is
"AAWS." AA World Services, Inc (AAWS) and
AA Grapevine, Inc are the legal corporate
entities that hold and preserve copyrights,
trademarks and service marks owned by AA.
The GSO also produces a number of literature
items that are not Conference-approved (i.e.
service pieces).

Page S70 of the Service Manual states: "The
General Service Board is responsible for the
General Service Office and the Grapevine, and
it takes care of its administrative duties
through two operating corporations. One is
A.A. World Services, Inc., which oversees the
General Service Office and publishes A.A.’s
books and pamphlets. The other is The A.A.
Grapevine, Inc., which oversees the Grapevine
office and publishes and distributes the A.A.
Grapevine magazine, the Spanish edition,
La Viña, and related items. The two entities
need to be incorporated in order to accomplish
such tasks as publishing and distributing
literature, handling funds, and conducting
other vital aspects of A.A.’s business."

Cheers
Arthur

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Al Welch
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 7:53 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Conf-approv literature & AA history from 1955

From Al Welch and junebug0619

- - - -

From: "Al Welch" <welch@a-1associates.com>
(welch at a-1associates.com)

Another definition of Conference-approved is
that it is owned by, printed by and distributed
only by the GSO in New York City. (and I don't
necessarily think that is a bad thing - it
just sounds that way!)

- - - -

From: junebug0619@aol.com
(junebug0619 at aol.com)

I agree that there are many helpful books
outside the realm of AA. Alcoholics Anonymous
is a text book for sobriety. I need info for
the heart and soul.

----- Original Message -----
From: "jenny andrews" <jennylaurie1@hotmail.com>
To: <aahistorylovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 5:22 AM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Conf-approv literature & AA history from 1955

>I guess Conference-approved means that that
> literature carries the imprimatur, or at
> least endorsement, of the Fellowship's
> collective group conscience; but as the
> Big Book itself reminds us, "There are many
> helpful books also. Suggestions about these
> may be obtained from one's priest, minister
> or rabbi." And as an open-minded agnostic,
> I would add - or from Amazon or a library!

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++++Message 4962. . . . . . . . . . . . Milestones of Alcoholics Anonymous
by Bill
From: gmaxham . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/12/2008 2:50:00 PM

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Hello

Can you tell me what these records are? A man
here in Maine has a set of three.

I think I can get them recorded if they're
worth doing. He wants to leave them with his
family. But I've been working on it with him.

Thank you,

Gordon Maxham
Area 28 archivist

Milestones of Alcoholics Anonymous by Bill
on red records.

I should explain a little more, I think I know
what's on the records. Just have never seen on
red records. Are these originals or what? Have
researched the Internet for two or three years
and still have never seen red records like
these.

Thank you Gordon

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++++Message 4963. . . . . . . . . . . . Early AA member Mary Martto
From: gmaxham . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/12/2008 3:02:00 PM

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We have a first edition first printing Big
Book with all kinds of interesting signatures
from Stepping Stones.

The woman's name that it belonged to is
Mary Martto. Does anyone know who this woman
is? We were told she is the second or third
woman in AA.

Area 28 archivist Gordon Maxham

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++++Message 4964. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA history from 1955 to the
present
From: ricktompkins . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/11/2008 11:44:00 PM

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Frank B., a past Chicago Area 19 Delegate to the Conference in the early
1990s, sat on Trustees Literature Committee as an Appointed Committee Member
in the mid-to-late 1990s. It was not a glorious post because the ACMs had
large tasks to perform for the Literature Committee. Frank shared one of his
assignments: the immense editing on our second AA History book that the
Trustees Literature Committee had undertaken in conjunction with an AA
Archives request. Simply, there had to be some of the writing that could be
available to the Fellowship as an accessible history, to aid in further
research. This was the last effort for an AA historybook (the one that
followed Bob P.'s effort in the 1980s) and has David's list of questions on
much of the process.

The General Service Conference's Conference Literature Committee reviewed
the manuscript as presented by Trustees Literature Committee in 1993 and
found it lacking a needed AA vitality and general relevance. Eventually the
edited manuscript was placed in the AA Archives with the AA Archivist's
notice (with the full support of the Trustees Archives Committee) that any
legitimate AA Archives Committee (Area or District) could receive copied
sections from the manuscript that related to the requestor's specific Region
and location.

I served my Illinois Area 20 as Archivist from 1998-2002 and received a copy
from the section written about history in the East Central Region (the Great
Lakes, from Wisconsin east to Ohio). Believe me, it was too dry to keep my
own interest. What the authors considered as relevant appeared to me as
irrelevant---name dropping, vague site descriptions, and no real coherence
or continuity in the chronicle. And, if this historybook was supposed to
detail AA's history past 1955, why did it have the supposed origins of ECR
groups back to the 1940s? The facts were generally incorrect and too vague,
very few 'interviewees' contributed what the manuscript presented as fact,
and so on. I can agree with the 1993 Conference Literature Committee that
this work was not up to any AA standard of excellence.

I am cynical to share that the manuscript could have been chapters that were
struck from "Dr. Bob and the Oldtimers," but my disappointment in the work
was that there was too little of the history it was supposed to be i.e.
post-1955 AA. That's the main reason that the edited manuscript is titled
"Collected Observations of AA." There was nothing comprehensive about it,
just a few tidbits of detail that only a few AA historians could sink their
teeth into. And, as an AA Historian, I found the writing as misleading.

The sets of authors (three?) tried, and short of a breach of contract
lawsuit against the General Service Board, all were paid for their
professional services.

Can we go back to Bill W. and "AA Comes Of Age" as the Fellowship's initial
history effort? Bill assembled the chapters and stories in that work like
the adventure he had witnessed during our formative years. And longtime AAs
received it that way, ensuring future AA generations that it had great
relevance and provenance! AACA has many contributors and tells the
'adventure' of a developed unity out of many divergent positions of how: how
AA grew, how AAs served, how AA may have fallen short, and most importantly
how AA survived.

Perhaps the next Fellowship-wide history draft could keep this perspective
in sight.

AACA is a very tough 'act' to follow---with the Conference disapproval and
failure of the two historybook efforts through the 1990s, a general
consensus began to develop, and seemed to replace the
"AA-as-a-whole-history" need (rather a 'want' no?) with a sense that local
(anywhere from an AA District to an AA Area to an AA Region) histories could
be completed.

In late 1993, after the debacle of this second history book effort failed
the approval of the Conference, discussion here in Northern Illinois was as
simple as this: if the Conference can't get a history completed and pass
muster, we can! Not fully cognizant of the implications, I volunteered to
attempt to write it. My service at that time was two years of District
Archives development (from scratch!), two years as a District Secretary, and
eight years of sobriety with a love and appreciation of AA's heritage. The
Assembly approved my proposal and I went to work at it. Please note that
this sharing is not so much about me but can serve as an example of one AA's
effort to preserve our message for future AAs. As written in the Preface, it
turns out that the joy is in the search and discovery.

The AA Archives assisted with answering any question I had, and the
Archivist at the time, Frank M., provided me actual letters and relatively
confidential information with my own commitment to protect its anonymity.
The Chicago Archives (at the time, scattered around the Area Office)was also
a huge resource. The Chicago Historical Society had very relevant Illinois
AA items, too, previously contributed from a 1989 Chicago Archives
Committee.

A close friend and past Area 20 (n. Illinois) Delegate and past Area
Archives Committee Chair, Hank G., turned out to be my "Pathfinder" on the
research.

My own Area's Archives had its fist extensive sorting and cataloguing
completed as a result. Two years later, sufficiently humbled that my Area
had something relevant and accurate, I enlisted an Ad Hoc committee of ten
longtimers and trusted servants to review it---think of a friendly Grand
Jury investigation that could call any detail into question for me to prove
as cross-referenced and double-checked.

The Area Assembly approved the proposal to print it in June 1996, and 1500
historybooks were distributed and/or purchased until it was considered as
out-of-print. By 2002, it was posted on the Area website as a massive Adobe
Acrobat Reader document. By 2001, further research brought my proposal to
update the book into a Second Issue, and my Assembly approved the venture.
In 2003, the same review process took place as had happened in 1996, and
this time the entire work was re-written with the reviewing help of a close
AA friend with a 'magna cum laude' B.A. degree in English literature. The
Second Issue's Assembly-approved printing was scaled down to 300 books that
were distributed and/or purchased within two years...But, as planned, it was
intended to be posted on the Area website, where it remains "in print" today
(as an even larger PDF file). Go to www.aa-nia.org and search for it!

Conference approval is a lengthy and complicated process that proves the
description of AA's prudent speed of "Slow, or Stopped."

Thankfully my Area's speed was "slow" about publishing its own history.

I believe that if a post-1955 AA history is written with the caliber and
details of a "Not-God" or "AA Comes Of Age" effort, it would still have a
rough time getting through our Conference's committee system. But I could be
wrong.

Meanwhile, many efforts continue with significant results for our AA history
and most of those efforts and publishing have been discussed and announced
here in this egroup. There are many successes that parallel what happened
in Northern Illinois Area here!

As a simple "member" of my Area Archives Committee today, thanks for
hearing my view.

Rick, Illinois

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 8:03 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: AA history from 1955 to the present

$384,000 was expended on a book which was
never completed or allowed to be completed.
The Trustees Literature Committee then
"agreed that it not be made available in the
Archives or anywhere else since it runs the
risk of becoming `unofficial' A.A.literature
and could involve legal problems."
Questions:
1. Have other pieces of literature, involving
over a quarter of a million dollars in
expenditures, been banned from the archives
and kept secret?
2. Did the Trustees Literature Committee
specifically cite the actual"legal problems"
it was concerned about? What were they?
<SNIP>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 4965. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Opening Day No-Hitter April 16
1940
From: Cindy Miller . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/12/2008 12:29:00 PM

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On Apr 11, 2008, at 5:27 PM, jlobdell54 wrote:

> I believe Bob Feller may still be
> alive at 89 or so -- I don't know if anyone
> has approached him for his recollections of
> Rollie, or if indeed they exist already.

- - - -

From: Cindy Miller <cm53@earthlink.net>
(cm53 at earthlink.net)

He is still alive--indeed, I heard him
just a few weeks ago on a sports radio
show--lamenting the new era of pitch counts,
the DH, set-up pitchers and closers, and
other MLB innovations!

-cm

`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>

- - - -

From: "Chris Budnick" <cbudnick@nc.rr.com>
(cbudnick at nc.rr.com)

There is a baseball signed by the 1948 World
Series Champion Cleveland Indians at Brown
University in the Robert H. Smith collection.
The ball is signed by the entire team, incl.
Rollie Hemsley. I have pictures if anyone is
interested.

Chris

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++++Message 4966. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA history from 1955 to the
present
From: James Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/13/2008 4:46:00 PM

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Rick wrote:

> Can we go back to Bill W. and "AA Comes Of
> Age" as the Fellowship's initial history
> effort? Bill assembled the chapters and
> stories in that work like the adventure he
> had witnessed during our formative years.

If you have a set of tapes from the Conference
in St. Louis in 1955, it is easy to note that
most of the text is transscribed from the tapes.

Jim

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++++Message 4967. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Early AA member Mary Martto
From: junebug0619@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/14/2008 12:11:00 AM

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Could the signature be "Marty Mann" instead of
"Mary Martto"?

- - - -

In a message dated 4/13/2008 3:26:55 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
gmaxham@yahoo.com writes:

We have a first edition first printing Big
Book with all kinds of interesting signatures
from Stepping Stones.

The woman's name that it belonged to is
Mary Martto. Does anyone know who this woman
is? We were told she is the second or third
woman in AA.

Area 28 archivist Gordon Maxham

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++++Message 4968. . . . . . . . . . . . Reader''s Digest
From: Carol W . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/13/2008 7:23:00 PM

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Hello,

I was wondering how many stories about AA
figures were printed in the Reader's Digest
Condensed Books? Whose stories were printed?

I know of only 2 stories: "My name is Bill W."
& "Bill W" by Robert Thomsen.

I am interested in finding more books in the
Reader's Digest series, including AA people
in addition to Bill W.

Thank you,
Carol W

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++++Message 4969. . . . . . . . . . . . Historical Perspective on the ICYPAA
conference
From: dijmo . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/14/2008 10:55:00 PM

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The 50th ICYPAA is being held July 3-6, 2008
in Oklahoma City: http://www.50thicypaa.org

We have been working with the program commit-
tee to get a slot on the program for a panel
meeting on Saturday afternoon. The likely
title for this panel is "Historical Perspective
on the ICYPAA conference" (from people that
hosted ICYPAA over the decades).

We would like to have three prearranged
panelists, one that was involved in hosting
an ICYPAA during the 60's, one that was
involved in hosting an ICYPAA during the
70's and one from the 80's.

After each of these folks have shared a little
bit about what it was like and what it meant
for their sobriety, we will open it up for
sharing from the floor.

For those of you who may know of Bill D., he
has agreed to be the Saturday night speaker.
Bill was involved in organizing the first
ICYPAA and the main speaker at the second!
If that's not enough, he first came to AA at
age 19, in New York and attended meetings with
Bill W. and many other early AAs.

Lizzie Schrock
Member 34th ICYPAA Host Committee
lizzieschrock@hotmail.com
530/906/9854

or

Melanie Elliott
Member 34th ICYPAA Host Committee
melhermann@aol.com
323/356/0432

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++++Message 4970. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Origin of the term "Character
Defect"
From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/15/2008 9:28:00 AM

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--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,
"jeffyour" <jyour@...> wrote:
>
> I've run a cursory search of the archives
> of this discussion board and found nothing
> that addresses the historical origin of the
> term "Character Defects".

- - - -

The opening paragraph from a 1928 book, The
Psychology of Character, With a Survey of
Temperment, A.A. Roback, author:

"There is one department of psychology in
which no progress has been made for about two
thousand years, in spite of the fact that it
was perhaps the first topic to attract
attention . . . .the interlocked subject
character and temperament which, though
forming the core of any study of human nature,
have continued to remain in the speculative
stage, while other psychological material was
being subjected to experimental scrutiny. Only
recently have these siblings been examined
anew under the more comprehensive head of
personality. . ."

"Defects of character" was an expression used
commonly in the late 19th-early 20th centuries.
I don't think you will be able to find a
specific source for Wilson's use of it. The
phrase "defects of character" as used then
might be similar to what psychologists today
would call "personality disorders" if they
are present in a severe form. In traditional
psychological theory these are felt to be
relatively immutable once childhood has
passed.

Where James comes into it, is that he believed
strongly in the changeability of character
through overwhelming transformational experi-
ences of a mystical type. The Oxford Groupers
adopted the Jamesian (pragmatic) view and
morphed it with a brand of "second blessing"
theology which was by then a little dated.
They brushed it off and polished it up with
some dynamic-psychology theory so it would
have a wider appeal.

Cora

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++++Message 4971. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Milestones of Alcoholics
Anonymous by Bill
From: aalogsdon@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/13/2008 9:29:00 PM

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I believe that they have already been put on
CDs. I have a set of three of these red
recordings and have them loaned out to a taper.

I think they are recordings of Bill W made in
1947. Can do follow-up if necessary.

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++++Message 4972. . . . . . . . . . . . Stepping Stones Annual Picnic
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/18/2008 8:58:00 PM

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From: "Stepping Stones" <info@steppingstones.org>
(info at steppingstones.org)

Dear Friend of Stepping Stones -

Spring has definitely come to Stepping Stones,
the historic home of Bill and Lois Wilson in
Bedford, New York. The daffodils and tulips
are in bloom, the annual picnic is soon upon
us and visitors are waking up from a long
winter's nap and stopping by for guided tours
daily.

Spring brings important updates for the
Stepping Stones family - people like you.

The 56th Annual Picnic is Saturday,
June 7, 2008, at noon. It's only a one-hour
train ride from New York City, so please
be sure to join us and help spread the
word! For a flyer or more information,
please visit the new and improved website
at www.steppingstones.org

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++++Message 4973. . . . . . . . . . . . A.A. History Weekend, East Dorset
VT, 8/22-24/08
From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/19/2008 8:08:00 AM

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A.A. History Weekend - The Stories
and Pictures of How A.A. Began

with Mitchell K., Bill McN., & Barefoot Bill

August 22-24, 2008

at the Wilson House (where Bill Wilson, AA
co-founder, was born)

378 Village Street

East Dorset, VT 05253

To register for the weekend & reserve a room,
please call the Wilson House at 802/362/5524.
____________________

Mitchell K. is author of the book about his
sponsor called "How It Worked: The Story of
Clarence Snyder & the Early Days of A.A. in
Cleveland, Ohio." He has also collaborated
with several other authors on books relating
to AA history.

Bill McN. will be performing live his popular
plays titled "Moments - An Evening With Bill
W." and "Scapedream - Dr. Bob...Pure & Simple".

A video performance of his Lois W. play will
also be shown (she was Bill W.'s wife and
co-founder of Al-Anon).

Barefoot Bill will be doing a three-hour talk
and picture show called "An AA History Present-
ation with 250 Pictures of Early AA".
____________________

SCHEDULE:

Friday night 8/22/08 (after the regularly
scheduled AA meeting) - Lois Wilson one-woman
play video

Saturday morning 8/23/08 9:00 to 10:20am -
Bill McN. performing live his Dr. Bob one-man
play

Saturday morning 8/23/08 10:40 to 12noon -
Mitchell K. talk/presentation

Saturday afternoon 8/23/08 1:00 to 4:00pm
(w/break) - Barefoot Bill's AA History Present-
ation with 250 Pictures of Early AA

Saturday night 8/23/08 (after the regularly
scheduled AA meeting) - Clarence Snyder video
talk

Sunday morning 8/24/08 9:00 to 10:20am -
Mitchell K. talk/presentation

Sunday morning 8/24/08 10:40 to 12noon -
Bill McN. performing live his Bill Wilson
one-man play

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++++Message 4974. . . . . . . . . . . . Ball in Dr Bob Collection at Brown
From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/16/2008 5:38:00 PM

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I don't have a picture of the ball, but my
impression had been that it was from 1940,
when Rollie, recently sober through AA, was a
member of the Cleveland Indians and caught
Bob Feller's no-hitter, and not from 1948,
when Rollie had retired (and in any case so
far as I know his last year with the Indians
was 1941). Not to say he couldn't have gotten
and signed a 1948 team ball for Dr. Bob (I
know he managed in AAA ball at Columbus in
1950, so he could have been in Ohio -- and
perhaps he coached for Cleveland in 1948,
though I don't remember him there), but in
any case I'm curious. Key signatures to show
1948 would probably be Joe Gordon and Satchel
Paige.

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++++Message 4975. . . . . . . . . . . . bills story
From: johnhartie . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/17/2008 4:18:00 AM

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In "Bill's Story" when the stockmarket crashed
the ticker said xyz-32. Is that a minus sign
before the 32?

- - - -

From the moderator: (Big Book p. 4) the stock
whose symbol on the stock ticker was XYZ-32,
was Penick & Ford, which tumbled from 52 to 32
in a single day.

But what can our experts on the stock market
tell us? Was this a minus sign in front of
the number 32?

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++++Message 4976. . . . . . . . . . . . Early proposed BB cover
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/20/2008 7:17:00 PM

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From: "Dirk Dierking" wsmaugham21@yahoo.com
(wsmaugham21 at yahoo.com)

At http://hindsfoot.org/private.html you
can see a picture which I found, showing what
I have been told is an early proposed cover
design for the Big Book.

What can you tell me about who designed
this particular cover, and that person's
story and life?

Also about whoever designed the cover that
ended up being used for the first edition
of the Big Book, and the whole story of how
the first cover was chosen?

Peace,

Dirk

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++++Message 4977. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Early proposed BB cover
From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/20/2008 8:29:00 PM

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Responses from Mitchell K., Rick Tomkins, and
Arthur Sheehan

- - - -

From: "Mitchell K." <mitchell_k_archivist@yahoo.com>
(mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com)

I'm sure there will be lots of responses, but...

The cover was designed by Ray Campbell. Ray was an
early NY member and an artist who lived in Carmel (or
Lake Carmel), NY (Putnam County) and his story AN
ARTIST'S CONCEPT appeared in the First Edition of the
Big Book. Ray also was the person who designed the
so-called "Circus" Dust Jacket which was chosen. The
original cover is located at the archives of the
Stepping Stones Foundation, former home of Bill and
Lois in the Bedford Hills (Westchester County) NY
area. Carmel, NY is not that far from Stepping Stones.

This Ray Campbell is not the same as the artist of the
same name born in 1956 in the UK.

- - - -

From: "ricktompkins" <ricktompkins@comcast.net>
(ricktompkins at comcast.net)

This is the blue "Their Pathway To A Cure"
cover. The same artist designed the yellow,
red, and white cover that was used on all
First Edition dust jackets and one that most
AAs can easily recognize.

The early AAs selected the second and called
it the 'circus' dust cover because of its
bright color arrangement.

And, the illustrator's story "An Artist's
Concept" was printed in First Editions, now
in the AAWS Experience, Strength, and Hope.

Notably, the author made the first reference
to Spencer's "contempt prior to investigation"
quote (misquoted and/or unattributed to
Herbert Spencer) that later was added to the
Big Book's "Spiritual Experience" appendix.

Enjoy the draft that was not selected; perhaps
it was too frighteningly compelling. The
second, selected cover had no images, just
the uncomplicated script lettering. To me,
both were very "art deco."

Rick, Illinois

- - - -

From: "Arthur Sheehan" <ArtSheehan@msn.com>
(ArtSheehan at msn.com)

Hi Dirk

The brightly colored yellow and red dust
jacket usually associated with the first
edition Big Book is sometimes called the
"circus color" dust jacket. It was designed
by Ray C (Campbel) whose 1st edition Big Book
story is "An Artist's Concept."

Ray also designed an art deco style dust
jacket that was never used. It's the dust
jacket you are inquiring about. I believe a
painting of it is on display at Steppingstones
but I can't verify this as fact.

As an item of AA trivial pursuit, Ray C began
his story with a quotation he attributed to
Herbert Spencer which said: "There is a
principle which is a bar against all informa-
tion, which is proof against all arguments
and which cannot fail to keep a man in ever-
lasting ignorance - that principle is contempt
prior to investigation."

Ray's story was not included in the 2nd edition
Big Book. However, the quotation and attribution
were added to Appendix II "Spiritual Experience"
when the 2nd edition Big Book was published in
1955. It has since been found out that the
quotation should be attributed to an English
clergyman, author and college lecturer by the
name of William Paley who lived from 1743 to
1805.

Cheers
Arthur

- - - -

Original message from: "Dirk Dierking"
<wsmaugham21@yahoo.com>
wsmaugham21 at yahoo.com)
>
> At http://hindsfoot.org/private.html you
> can see a picture which I found, showing what
> I have been told is an early proposed cover
> design for the Big Book.
>
> What can you tell me about who designed
> this particular cover, and that person's
> story and life?
>
> Also about whoever designed the cover that
> ended up being used for the first edition
> of the Big Book, and the whole story of how
> the first cover was chosen?
>
> Peace,
>
> Dirk

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++++Message 4978. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Big Book cover and Ray Campbell
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/23/2008 1:53:00 PM

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Here is Nancy Olson's short bio of Ray Campbell,
who designed the Big Book dust jackets we have
been discussing:

http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/Authors.htm

An Artist's Concept -- Ray Campbell
New York City
p. 380 in 1st edition

Ray joined the fellowship in February 1938.

He began his story by quoting Herbert Spencer:
"There is a principle which is a bar against
all information, which is proof against all
arguments and which can not fail to keep a man
in everlasting ignorance-that principle is
contempt prior to investigation."

He said that the quotation is descriptive of
the mental attitudes of many alcoholics when
the subject of religion, as a cure, is first
brought to their attention. "It is only when
a man has tried everything else, when in utter
desperation and terrific need he turns to
something bigger than himself, that he gets
a glimpse of the way out. It is then that
contempt is replaced by hope, and hope by
fulfillment."

Ray chose to write of his search for spiritual
help rather than "a description of the neurotic
drinking that made the search necessary."

After investigating his alcoholic problem from
every angle, medicine, psychology, psychiatry,
and psychoanalysis, he began "flirting" with
religion as a possible way out. He had been
approaching God intellectually. That only
added to his desperation, but a seed had been
planted.

Finally he met a man, probably Bill Wilson,
who had for five years "devoted a great deal
of time and energy to helping alcoholics."
The man told him little he didn't already know,
"but what he did have to say was bereft of all
fancy spiritual phraseology -- it was simple
Christianity imparted with Divine Power."

The next day he met over twenty men who "had
achieved a mental rebirth from alcoholism."

He liked them because the were ordinary men
who were not pious nor "holier than thous."

He notes that these men were but instruments.
"Of themselves they were nothing."

He must have been an intellectual type. He not
only quotes Spencer, but Thoreau: "Most men
lead lives of quiet desperation."

It was Ray, a recognized artist, who was asked
to design the dust jacket for the 1st edition
of the Big Book. He submitted various designs
for consideration including one that was blue
and in an Art Deco style. The one chosen was
red, and yellow, with a little black, and a
little white. The words Alcoholics Anonymous
were printed across the top in large white
script. It became known as the circus jacket
because of its loud circus colors. The unused
blue jacket is today in the Archives at the
Stepping Stones Foundation.

His story was not included in the Second
Edition of the Big Book but the Spencer quote
was placed in the back of the book in
Appendix II, "Spiritual Experience."

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++++Message 4979. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Ball in Dr Bob Collection at
Brown
From: Chris Budnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/20/2008 8:43:00 PM

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I visited the collection at Brown University
in May 2007. The ball that is there is from
the 1948 World Series Champion, Cleveland
Indians. I can email pictures I took while
there. I have been through the entire
collection at Brown between my trip in May
2007 and later in September.

Chris

<cbudnick@nc.rr.com>
(cbudnick at nc.rr.com)

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++++Message 4980. . . . . . . . . . . . Signed Indians Baseball at Brown
From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/20/2008 10:35:00 PM

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Chris very kindly sent me three views of the
baseball signed by Rollie Hemsley and identi-
fied as a 1948 World Series ball.

The signatures of Joe Dobson (CLE 1939-40
only), Johnny Allen (CLE 1936-40 only), Floyd
Stromme (1939 only), Bruce Campbell (CLE
1935-39 only), and others, identify the ball
as either late 1939 or (much less likely
because Campbell was traded to DET by
Opening Day 1940) very early (Opening
Day) 1940.

In any case, despite the label, it's not
from 1948. Most likely 1939 when Feller was
24-9 with 296 SO and Hemsley batted .263.

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++++Message 4981. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Ball in Dr Bob Collection at
Brown
From: greatcir . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/20/2008 11:11:00 PM

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In October, 2005 I visited Brown University
and read through a number of boxes related to
Dr. Bob and Clarence Snyder. Very few of the
boxes had been cataloged and a few of them
had plain grocery plastic bags full of loose
correspondence, post cards, Works Publishing
auditor reports, etc.

A box, labled Box 2, had Dr. Bob's wallet with
his Social Security card (1937) in it, a small
pouch of old medical instruments, a folder
on how form a group (1950), and a baseball
related to Helmsley per the box description.

I have a date of 1948 next to the baseball
note in my file but have no recollection of
where this date came from nor do I remember
examining the baseball for any autographs.
I was not permitted to take any photographs.

A box that was labled Box 1 held an old coffee
pot. It was reported to be from Dr' Bob's house
and was refered to as the "Holy Grail" of the
AA materials in the Brown collection in their
description of the collection in 2005.

I do recall the archives person from Brown not
being very excited about my examination of any
of these materials. They were much more relaxed
about me simply reading the text of materials
in the other boxes.

In previous months I had spent time at Stepping
Stones reviewing primarily the last 90 days of
Bill's life. I was hoping to see something
about the waning period of Dr. Bob's days at
Brown but found nothing in the boxes I reviewed.

I did not see all of the "boxes" and it was
hit or miss on which box I would ask to see
the mext day as it took 24 hours to get a box.

There was a lot of correspondence on royalties
(Bill, Bob, Sue Windows, Barry Leach, etc.) as
well as many disrelated text items.

One day at a time,

Pete K.

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++++Message 4982. . . . . . . . . . . . AA in Latin America
From: amielmelnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/22/2008 8:40:00 AM

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Hello everyone,

I'm doing research on the history of AA in
Latin America (Mexico, Central and South
America) - how the first groups were started,
how they spread, any secessions or diffi-
culties starting groups (I've been reading
what has been posted here about the Mexico
separation).

I wonder if any of you have information about
other parts of the history of AA in Latin
America, or suggestions for good places to
look? I realize this is a bit broader than
the kinds of questions you usually get, but
I'm just a beginner!

Thanks, and all best,

Amiel

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++++Message 4983. . . . . . . . . . . . Hugh Reilly, Easy Does It: The Story
of Mac
From: giftpurple . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/22/2008 8:38:00 AM

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What is the history behind the book "Easy
Does It: Story of Mac" by Hugh Reilly?

- - - -

From the moderator:

"Easy Does It" by Hugh Reilly was a 1950s
book about an alcoholic man.

The basic bibliographic information is:

Easy does it, the story of Mac. For the
millions who as yet do not know.
by Hugh Reilly, pseud.
Type: Book; English
Publisher: New York, Kenedy [1950]
OCLC: 2662794
Related Subjects: Alcoholics Anonymous.

There is a review written by Robert E. L.
Faris. See the book review "Easy Does It:
The Story of Mac. by Hugh Reilly" in the
American Journal of Sociology, Vol. 56,
No. 3 (Nov., 1950), p. 300. (Published by
the University of Chicago Press)

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++++Message 4984. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill''s story and XYZ-32 on
stock ticker
From: junebug0619@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/20/2008 11:01:00 PM

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Responses from junebug, John Lee, and Mike Barns

- - - -

From: junebug0619@aol.com
(junebug0619 at aol.com)

If a person is following the action of any one
company, he would have to know the stock symbol
of that company to read its action on the
ticker tape. Let us take as an example the
Coca-Cola Company with the symbol KO. The
tape would show:

KO - the ticker symbol of the company

9M - the amount of shares traded, in this
case M stands for million, as K would stand
for a thousand and B for a billion

@ - at 60.79 - the last bid price in that day
per share of stock and up or down arrow - to
show the direction of change

0.83 - the amount of change

According to the above example in the Big Book,
the stock market was 52 dropping 32 points.

- - - -

From: John Lee <johnlawlee@yahoo.com>
(johnlawlee at yahoo.com)

A stock price can never be below zero. Unlike
partners, stockholders cannot be assessed when
a company has a negative value.
john lee
Pittsburgh

- - - -

From: Mike Barns <mikeb384@verizon.net>
(mikeb384 at verizon.net)

I am no expert on the stock market, but stock
prices are not quoted in negative values; they
are removed from the board. A single day drop
from 52 to 32 is calamitous indeed, and could
be considered ruinous for most.

Mike B.

- - - -

Original message from "johnhartie"
<johnhartie@yahoo.com> (johnhartie at yahoo.com)

In "Bill's Story" when the stockmarket crashed
the ticker said XYZ-32. Is that a minus sign
before the 32?

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++++Message 4985. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Hugh Reilly, Easy Does It: The
Story of Mac
From: James Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/23/2008 4:21:00 PM

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There is a persistent rumour that the book
was written by Bill Wilson in order to raise
monies for the retirement of Dr. Silkworth.

I don't know if a computer analysis of the
writing styles was ever done.

Jim

**************************************

Original Message: 4983
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/4983
From: "giftpurple" <Jifgift@aol.com>
(Jifgift at aol.com)

What is the history behind the book "Easy
Does It: Story of Mac" by Hugh Reilly?

- - - -

From the moderator:

"Easy Does It" by Hugh Reilly was a 1950s
book about an alcoholic man.

The basic bibliographic information is:

Easy does it, the story of Mac. For the
millions who as yet do not know.
by Hugh Reilly, pseud.
Type: Book; English
Publisher: New York, Kenedy [1950]
OCLC: 2662794
Related Subjects: Alcoholics Anonymous.

There is a review written by Robert E. L.
Faris. See the book review "Easy Does It:
The Story of Mac. by Hugh Reilly" in the
American Journal of Sociology, Vol. 56,
No. 3 (Nov., 1950), p. 300. (Published by
the University of Chicago Press)

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++++Message 4986. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Hugh Reilly, Easy Does It: The
Story of Mac
From: Chris Budnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/24/2008 1:15:00 AM

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In Dale Mitchell's biography, Silkworth -
The Little Doctor Who Loved Drunks, Mitchell
suggests that Easy Does It was written by
Silkworth under the pseudonym Hugh Reilly.
I don't have the book in front of me so I
can't reference the pages where he discusses
this. After reading the Silkworth bio, it
prompted me to track down a copy of Easy Does
It.

Chris

**************************************

Original Message: 4983
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/4983
From: "giftpurple" <Jifgift@aol.com>
(Jifgift at aol.com)

What is the history behind the book "Easy
Does It: Story of Mac" by Hugh Reilly?

- - - -

From the moderator:

"Easy Does It" by Hugh Reilly was a 1950s
book about an alcoholic man.

The basic bibliographic information is:

Easy does it, the story of Mac. For the
millions who as yet do not know.
by Hugh Reilly, pseud.
Type: Book; English
Publisher: New York, Kenedy [1950]
OCLC: 2662794
Related Subjects: Alcoholics Anonymous.

There is a review written by Robert E. L.
Faris. See the book review "Easy Does It:
The Story of Mac. by Hugh Reilly" in the
American Journal of Sociology, Vol. 56,
No. 3 (Nov., 1950), p. 300. (Published by
the University of Chicago Press)

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++++Message 4987. . . . . . . . . . . . AA member No. 4
From: Mark . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/24/2008 11:03:00 AM

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Good Morning/Afternoon all!

Does anyone know who the person is that is
referenced in the BB as the fourth member?

Thanks

- - - -

From the moderator:

I am assuming that you are referring to the
"devil-may-care young fellow" who appears
on page 158 in the Big Book (3rd/4th edit.).

The "devil-may-care young fellow" was 30-
year-old Ernie Galbraith of Akron, a young
man with problems [who must be distinguished
from the other Ernie G. in the early Ohio AA
group, who was Ernie Gerig of Toledo, one of
the truly great AA good old timers.]

Ernie Galbraith, who had trouble with drinking
for the rest of his life, nevertheless had
his story, "The Seven Month Slip," in the
first edition of the Big Book. In 1941 Dr.
Bob's daughter Sue married Ernie Galbraith
but they were later divorced.

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++++Message 4988. . . . . . . . . . . . Who edited three of the 1st edition
stories?
From: johnhartie . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/25/2008 2:38:00 PM

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In the preface (4th edition, bottom of page xi)
it says that in the second edition,

- - - -

<<"Bill's Story," "Doctor Bob's Nightmare,"
and one other personal history from the first
edition were retained intact;

three were edited and one of these was retitled;

new versions of two stories were written, with
new titles>>

- - - -

My question is, who edited those three stories?

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++++Message 4989. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA in Latin America
From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/24/2008 5:32:00 PM

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Several years back there was a research
symposium held at Brown University with some
AA members/historians and friends of AA
attending. Since my divorce and move I can't
find anything in my apartment and also due
to the fact that my memory is vanishing I
can't remember the Jesuit sociologist who was
in attendance who had immersed himself in the
AA culture in Mexico for a long-term research
study. Maybe Ernie Kurtz might have the
paperwork from that symposium and thus, the
contact info.

The nice thing about losing my memory is
that I will always be able to discover new
places and meet new people and make new
friends.

--- amielmelnick <amiel@whatfelt.org> wrote:

> Hello everyone,
>
> I'm doing research on the history of AA in
> Latin America (Mexico, Central and South
> America) - how the first groups were started,
> how they spread, any secessions or diffi-
> culties starting groups (I've been reading
> what has been posted here about the Mexico
> separation).
>
> I wonder if any of you have information about
> other parts of the history of AA in Latin
> America, or suggestions for good places to
> look? I realize this is a bit broader than
> the kinds of questions you usually get, but
> I'm just a beginner!
>
> Thanks, and all best,
>
> Amiel
>
>
>

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++++Message 4990. . . . . . . . . . . . "the man in the bed"
From: Trysh Travis . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/27/2008 6:14:00 PM

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I have become interested in the various
representations of "the man in the bed," and
am eager to add to the "gallery" I am making
up. I have collected the photos from the
original Jack Alexander article in the
Saturday Evening Post, as well as the
painting [?] on Barefoot Bill's website

http://www.barefootsworld.net/aabilld-aa3.html

and the stained glass window at the Akron
Archives

http://www.akronaa.org/Archives/man_on_the_bed.html

I am curious to know whether people on this
list know of other visual representations of
the man in the bed that I might add to my
archive. They don't have to be famous like
these are!

Thanks, Trysh Travis

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++++Message 4991. . . . . . . . . . . . As Bill Sees It: changed quotations
From: George Ewing . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/28/2008 8:56:00 PM

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I've perused As Bill Sees Its for years but
only recently noticed that many of the quotes
from both the Big Book and Twelve Steps and
Twelve Traditions are actually NOT quotes,
but paraphrases.

This disturbs me for a number of reasons,
and since I noticed it I've left ASBI on
the shelf.

Does anyone know a) who decided to paraphrase
the source material, b) whether the "letters"
and Grapevine article snippets are also
paraphrased?

Thanks in advance.

George

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++++Message 4992. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: AA member No. 4
From: Chris Budnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/28/2008 11:28:00 PM

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An added tragedy for Sue and Ernie occurred
a few years after their divorce when their
daughter Bonna committed suicide after taking
the life of her 6-year-old daughter Sandy on
June 11, 1969. Ernie died 2 years later to
the day. Also very tragic, Smitty and Betty
had a son who committed suicide.

Chris

- - - -

Original message:

Good Morning/Afternoon all!

Does anyone know who the person is that is
referenced in the BB as the fourth member?

Thanks

- - - -

From the moderator:

I am assuming that you are referring to the
"devil-may-care young fellow" who appears
on page 158 in the Big Book (3rd/4th edit.).

The "devil-may-care young fellow" was 30-
year-old Ernie Galbraith of Akron, a young
man with problems [who must be distinguished
from the other Ernie G. in the early Ohio AA
group, who was Ernie Gerig of Toledo, one of
the truly great AA good old timers.]

Ernie Galbraith, who had trouble with drinking
for the rest of his life, nevertheless had
his story, "The Seven Month Slip," in the
first edition of the Big Book. In 1941 Dr.
Bob's daughter Sue married Ernie Galbraith
but they were later divorced.

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++++Message 4993. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "the man in the bed"
From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/28/2008 11:03:00 PM

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I would be interested to know when and how
Bill Dotson's name became associated with
the painting?

It was not intended to represent him when it
was painted in 1955 by Robert M, a volunteer
illustrator for the Grapevine and appeared in
the December issue of that year titled "Came
to Believe." The setting is obviously not
in a hospital. The man on the bed is wearing
trousers and an undershirt. There is a bottle
of booze on the chest of drawers. The head
and foot of the bed are brass, not a hospital
bed. If the book one of the men has is
supposed to be a Big Book, it wasn't published
until almost four years later. One wonders
what book Bill and Dr. Bob would have used.

It is my understanding that the painting was
presented to Bill W by the artist in May of
1956, the following year. It was very popular
and the Grapevine provided reproductions of it.

When the book Came to Believe was published
in 1973, the name of the painting was changed
to The Man on the Bed to avoid confusion.

It appears at some point people started
believing the painting represented Bill Dotson
in Akron City Hospital in 1935. I wonder if
there is any hard evidence when that happened?

Tommy H

- - - -

Original message: Trysh Travis wrote

>I have become interested in the various
>representations of "the man in the bed," and
>am eager to add to the "gallery" I am making
>up. I have collected the photos from the
>original Jack Alexander article in the
>Saturday Evening Post, as well as the
>painting [?] on Barefoot Bill's website
>
>http://www.barefootsworld.net/aabilld-aa3.html
>
>and the stained glass window at the Akron
>Archives
>
>http://www.akronaa.org/Archives/man_on_the_bed.html
>
>I am curious to know whether people on this
>list know of other visual representations of
>the man in the bed that I might add to my
>archive. They don't have to be famous like
>these are!

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++++Message 4994. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "the man in the bed"
From: Arthur Sheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/28/2008 10:11:00 PM

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I don't see anything to add to your answer
Tommy. It's fairly common to hear members say
that the man on the bed represents Bill,
Dr Bob and Bill D.

What I do is to point out that: (1) the man on
the bed is wearing trousers, (2) there is a
carpet under the bed, (3) there is a bottle of
booze on the dresser and (4) the headboard
and footboard of the bed are brass. These
would not be found in a room in Akron City
Hospital in June 1935. Also, the man in the
foreground is holding a book - if the artist
intended it to be the Big Book, then that
wasn't written until 4 years later in 1939.

And then people still go on saying it's Bill,
Dr Bob and Bill D.

Cheers
Arthur

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++++Message 4995. . . . . . . . . . . . Historical list of all ICYPAA
conferences
From: Jocelyn . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/2/2008 2:22:00 PM

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~~~~Hey there ... Just joined the group.
Found you in my search for a simple list of
all the ICYPAAs, their years, cities and
themes. I'm the chair of the Chicago ICYPAA
bid committee for this year, and would like
to peruse this info. Does anyone have any
idea where I can locate such a list??

Look forward to seeing you in Oklahoma!

Jocelyn Geboy
Chair, Chicago ICYPAA Bid Committee

- - - -

From the moderator: for a general historical
account (although this doesn't give you your
detailed list) you might look at

http://www.barefootsworld.net/aaspecialgroups.html

if you haven't already done so.

- - - -

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "dijmo" <dijmo@...> wrote:
>
> The 50th ICYPAA is being held July 3-6, 2008
> in Oklahoma City: http://www.50thicypaa.org
>
> We have been working with the program commit-
> tee to get a slot on the program for a panel
> meeting on Saturday afternoon. The likely
> title for this panel is "Historical Perspective
> on the ICYPAA conference" (from people that
> hosted ICYPAA over the decades).
>
> We would like to have three prearranged
> panelists, one that was involved in hosting
> an ICYPAA during the 60's, one that was
> involved in hosting an ICYPAA during the
> 70's and one from the 80's.
>
> After each of these folks have shared a little
> bit about what it was like and what it meant
> for their sobriety, we will open it up for
> sharing from the floor.
>
> For those of you who may know of Bill D., he
> has agreed to be the Saturday night speaker.
> Bill was involved in organizing the first
> ICYPAA and the main speaker at the second!
> If that's not enough, he first came to AA at
> age 19, in New York and attended meetings with
> Bill W. and many other early AAs.
>
> Lizzie Schrock
> Member 34th ICYPAA Host Committee
> lizzieschrock@...
> 530/906/9854
>
> or
>
> Melanie Elliott
> Member 34th ICYPAA Host Committee
> melhermann@...
> 323/356/0432
>

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++++Message 4996. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA member No. 4 and Dr. Bob''s
daughter Sue
From: Cindy Miller . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/30/2008 6:39:00 PM

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Wonderful, positive note:

Sue married her old sweetheart, Ray Windows
in 1975 -- 38 years after she had originally
met him!

Source: "Children of the Healer" (story of Sue
and Smitty) - highly recommended.

-cm
`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>

On Apr 28, 2008, at 11:28 PM, Chris Budnick wrote:

> An added tragedy for Sue and Ernie occurred
> a few years after their divorce when their
> daughter Bonna committed suicide after taking
> the life of her 6-year-old daughter Sandy on
> June 11, 1969. Ernie died 2 years later to
> the day. Also very tragic, Smitty and Betty
> had a son who committed suicide.
>
> Chris
>
> - - - -
>
> Original message:
>
> Good Morning/Afternoon all!
>
> Does anyone know who the person is that is
> referenced in the BB as the fourth member?
>
> Thanks
>
> - - - -
>
> From the moderator:
>
> I am assuming that you are referring to the
> "devil-may-care young fellow" who appears
> on page 158 in the Big Book (3rd/4th edit.).
>
> The "devil-may-care young fellow" was 30-
> year-old Ernie Galbraith of Akron, a young
> man with problems [who must be distinguished
> from the other Ernie G. in the early Ohio AA
> group, who was Ernie Gerig of Toledo, one of
> the truly great AA good old timers.]
>
> Ernie Galbraith, who had trouble with drinking
> for the rest of his life, nevertheless had
> his story, "The Seven Month Slip," in the
> first edition of the Big Book. In 1941 Dr.
> Bob's daughter Sue married Ernie Galbraith
> but they were later divorced.
>
>
>

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++++Message 4997. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Hugh Reilly, Easy Does It: The
Story of Mac
From: Chris Budnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/30/2008 1:28:00 AM

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Below is the text from the Silkworth biography
by Dale Mitchell (p. 95 - 101) regarding
arguments for Silkworth writing Easy Does It.
As mentioned in the email from Jim, it does
indicate speculation about Bill Wilson having
authored the book. I had forgotten that point
from the Silkworth bio. It's a bit of a long
email.

- - - -

On May 26, 1950, a fictional account of an
alcoholic called Easy Does It: The Story of Mac
was published by P.]. Kenedy and Sons out of
New York City during Silkworth's last full
year at Knickerbocker Hospital. The author
used the pseudonym Hugh Reilly and, according
to the dustcover, "has resorted to a narrative
which but barely disguises his true experience."
Was this author, indeed, William Silkworth?
A number of facts lead to this very conclusion.

Easy Does It describes a treatment facility
and process that mirrors that of Knickerbocker
Hospital during the Silkworth management. It
outlines the program of Alcoholics Anonymous
to a degree of understanding that surpasses
that of most of the active members of the
fellowship. The Twelve Steps of Alcoholics
Anonymous and some of the then-unwritten
Traditions are explained to a level equal to
that of the Big Book. Easy Does It presents
facts, fictional characters that strongly
resemble important people within early M, and
medical descriptions unique to the Silkworth
treatment program. More important, the
alcoholic mind is dissected through the
conversations and thoughts of the main char-
acter, Mac.

Prior to Easy Does It, early AA was presented
in only a few publications, including the Big
Book of Alcoholics Anonymous and a few Bill
Wilson AA Grapevine articles. Some of the
information contained in Easy Does It cannot
be traced to any of these sources. The author
of this book must have lived within the inner
circles of the program and maintained firsthand
knowledge of specific Silkworth treatment
attitudes. Only one man could have known the
details outlined in Easy Does It - William
Silkworth himself.

The characters in the book spoke about the
exact same medical descriptions, analogies, and
quotations Silkworth used over the years in his
writings and speeches.

Silkworth's nurse, Teddy, is one of the fictional
characters in the book. The character matches
Teddy in vivid physical detail and personality.
The personality description even corresponds to
how Teddy described herself in the 1952 article
"I'm a Nurse in an Alcoholic Ward." Silkworth
himself could not have been better described in
physical detail and personality had his own wife
written the book. His glowing white hair, his
deep blue eyes, even the way he dressed are the
attributes of one of the characters.

The author held an uncanny knowledge of
alcoholism, the Silkworth writings, the allergy
theory, and the program specifics of Alcoholics
Anonymous. The book uses many phrases that
were coined by Silkworth and rarely used by
others. The book, which was well received,
focuses more on the physical and medical
presentation of alcoholism than the spiritual
requirements of recovery, yet the spiritual
components of recovery are also plainly
detailed. Although Silkworth's conversion
beliefs are left for secondary conversations
between the two main characters, conversion
indeed occurs in every case of recovery
presented. In accordance with the Silkworth
legacy, it is obvious the book lays the ground
for a firm base of medical understanding. A
presentation of Higher Power and references to
God are well placed within the book after the
medical descriptions. Had the book been written
with a purely AA focus, this might not have
occurred.

The only reasonable argument against Silkworth
authoring the book is that he was an extremely
private and humble man. It is said that
Silkworth would never write a book about
himself that contained such glowing praise for
his work. Silkworth always maintained his
distance from fame despite the important role he
played in the birth of Alcoholics Anonymous.
Why would he suddenly step out of character
and write a book acknowledging the intelligence
and knowledge of alcoholic treatment by a doctor
who was obviously himself?

We do know that he did nonetheless step out of
character and pen a glowing recommendation of
himself. The foreword to Easy Does It was
written and signed by 'William Duncan
Silkworth, Physician-in-Charge of the AA Wing,
Knickerbocker Hospital, New York." In this
short introduction, Silkworth writes, "The author
has long been a close student of the alcoholic
problem. He certainly does not write as an
amateur."

The story describes one of the main characters,
Dr. Goodrich, as "a man of exceptional mental
and spiritual nature." If it can only be accepted
that the Dr. Goodrich character is indeed Dr.
Silkworth, then it must be accepted that Silk-
worth was still writing a foreword to a book
that praised his own work.

In his closing statement of the foreword
Silkworth states, "It deals with a complex
subject, discussed from many angles, often
challenging, always vigorous and original." At
the time, Silkworth was widely respected as an
expert on alcoholism and for his Towns and
Knickerbocker treatment models for programs
and facilities all over the world. This
foreword was no small recommendation.
Silkworth endorsed only three books in his
writing over his many years: Alcoholics Anon-
ymous, The Varieties of Religious Experience,
and Easy Does It. This places Easy Does It
quite high on the suggested reading list from
a man generally married to science and Alco-
holics Anonymous.

The only other reasonable argument against
Silkworth as the author is that Bill Wilson was
the author. Next to Silkworth, no one else had
the experience at Towns and Knickerbocker
Hospitals aside from Bill Wilson. No one could
have more precisely described Alcoholics
Anonymous. No one could have understood the
medical facts presented in the book regarding
the allergy theory, and certainly, no one knew
the true story of Bill's spiritual awakening.

How then do we challenge this theory? First,
Bill was known to be gregarious and very
public. He wrote many articles and was
involved in the writing of two books about his
life and the history of Alcoholics Anonymous.
Not once did he shy from public praise, quite
the contrary. Why would Bill Wilson suddenly
decide to write a book on Alcoholics Anony-
mous and the life of Dr. Silkworth in an
anonymous fashion?

Second, Wilson regretted not properly thanking
Silkworth more directly, and more frequently,
long after Silkworth had died. He would not
have made these comments had he actually
written a book that did indeed provide such
praise for Silkworth.

When first informed about the possibility that
Silkworth authored Easy Does It by a resource-
ful woman named Susan in New Jersey, I set
out to prove her wrong. My very first phone
call made me begin to question my preconcep-
tions.

When I called Adelaide Silkworth, the wife of
Silkworth's nephew William Silkworth, the first
time, we spoke briefly about the project and my
desire to find out all I could about the doctor.
Her first response was "Are you going to tell
them about Easy Does It?"

The family has long believed Silkworth to be the
author of Easy Does It - a rumor that does not
start haphazardly in a family history. Adelaide
matter-of-factly talked about how she and her
husband have always known and talked openly
about Dr. Silkworth being the true author, as
though she thought everyone already knew it to
be true. If Dr. Silkworth had lived three or four
generations earlier, the current family beliefs
might be difficult to accept as truth. The fact
that he lived at the same time and spent much
time with his namesake only strengthens the
family history.

A secondary source of proof is found in the
book review section of the New York Times in
1950. The prerelease book review for Easy
Does It names Dr. Silkworth as the author.
Minot C. Morgan wrote of this review in the
December 8, 1950, Princeton Alumni Weekly,
where he discussed Easy Does It and the author.

Members of this class may not be aware that
one of our classmates is an author named Hugh
Reilly, but the following book review in the
New York Times reveals his identity to be none
other than Dr. Bill Silkworth, who is still
devoting his energies and his professional skill
in a fine and much-needed humanitarian service:

"A fictionalized biography of an 'arrested alco-
holic' by an author who writes under the
pseudonym of Hugh Reilly will be published
on May 26 by P.J Kenedy. 'Easy Does It: The
Story of Mac' presents the life of a 'stew-bum,'

and the how and why of drinking and how the
alcoholic returned to normal life. Dr. William
Duncan Silkworth, Physician-in-charge of the
Alcoholics Anonymous Wing in Knickerbocker
Hospital, says in his foreword: The author
very properly integrates the moral therapy and
psychology of Alcoholics Anonymous as an
essential element in restoring the integrity of
the alcoholic."

Also the following excerpt from an obituary
of Dr. Silkworth was found as a third source:

A few months before his death his book, "Easy
Does It: The Story of Mac," was published by
P.J. Kenedy, the fictionalized biography of an
arrested alcoholic, telling the how and why of
drinking and explaining the means of recovery,
emphasizing the moral therapy and psychology
of Alcoholics Anonymous as an essential
element in restoring the integrity of the alco-
holic. In the publication of the book Billy
concealed his identity under the pseudonym of
Hugh Reilly, only the foreword being credited
to Dr.William Duncan Silkworth.

The New York Times had a resource at its finger-
tips since lost in the annals of AA history
- an original book review. Silkworth's New York
Times obituary was matter-of-fact about the
authorship of Easy Does It. Certainly, had
there been a man named Hugh Reilly, of whom
we have been unable to, find any record exists,
he would have come forward for his rightful
ownership of the book. In fact, the book itself
admits the name is a pseudonym.

The dedication page of Easy Does It can be
viewed as a path to the author's identity.
Certainly thousands may have the same initials
as those listed on the following dedication
page. Yet if we begin with those who had a
positive influence on Dr. Silkworth, we can
quickly find names that correspond with the
initials.

TO T. F. M.

WITH GRATITUDE FOR ALL THE THINGS

THAT WENT INTO HIS BEING

"THE FIRST TO UNDERSTAND"

AND TO

C.E.T

WHICH MIGHT ALSO STAND FOR
CHRIST EXEMPLIFIED FOR OUR
TIMES

Only one man in Silkworth's life distinguished
as "the first to understand" has the initials
T. F. M. And many referred to Thomas Francis
Marshall as the first to understand. He was
among the first to publicly preach a required
"conversion experience" for alcoholic recovery.
Long before William James and Joel Steele,
Marshall beckoned spiritual conversion as a
solution to alcoholism. One of the most ardent
supporters of conversion was William
Silkworth. Colonel Edward Towns (C.E.T.)
was known as a very compassionate and
Christian man. Towns and Silkworth became
very good friends through the work at Towns
Hospital. Many who knew Towns referred to
his strong Christian values, and one in parti-
cular, the Reverend Harry Emerson Fosdick,
called him "an example of Christianity."

The introduction to Easy Does It was written
with authority. Not with the authority of one
man's understanding of one alcoholic, but with
one man's experience of many alcoholics.
Again, the author praises several founding
members and supporters of Alcoholics
Anonymous, including "a great man named

Bill." The introduction reveals the identity of
'The Padre," one of the main characters of the
book, as a composite portrait "not unlike the
four immortal chaplains commemorated on a
three cent stamp issued by the United States
Government." The men, Reverend Samuel
Shoemaker, Father Ed Dowling, Reverend
Harry Emerson Fosdick, and Reverend Frank
Buchman, were all founding spiritual supporters
of Alcoholics Anonymous and well known to
Silkworth.

In his "introduction," the author attempts mainly
to offer Alcoholics Anonymous as "the only
program that takes cognizance of this whole
man in the treatment of the alcoholic and
motivates him in a way of life by which he
remains sober." Sound familiar? He also,
however, sheds light on his true identity. First,
the generic language itself is obviously a
barometer of Silkworth's prior writings. Almost
word for word, in the introduction and in the
story told in the book, we find Silkworth's
theoretical influence. Either the author knew the
content and sum of all Silkworth's writings and
speeches, or the author was Silkworth. Phrases
like "case history" were used to describe the
book's story. These are not words of a non-
medical man.

The closing paragraph may offer the most
poignant sentence in the entire book:

I want here to express my fervent appreciation
of the inestimable assistance which I received
consciously from the spoken and written
statements of the eminent doctor whose name
and words give luster to this book in the
Foreword. . . .Upon review of these facts, there
is truly only one option to consider: Dr.
Silkworth was the author of Easy Does It.
And through this fictional story, he offers the
world a glimpse of his private thoughts as
one of the founding fathers of AA.

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++++Message 4998. . . . . . . . . . . . Live Easy But Think First
From: tsirish1 . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/3/2008 4:53:00 PM

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Does anyone KNOW the origin of this practice?
Year? Group? Where I can find where the origin
is WRITTEN DOWN? Thanks.

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++++Message 4999. . . . . . . . . . . . Did Rollie Hemsley drink again?
From: Michael F. Margetis . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/4/2008 5:07:00 PM

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Hi,

I know a lot about Rollie's baseball career
and his anonymity break, and that he wound up
running a real estate office in Langley Park
Maryland (where I got sober)up until his death
and is buried nearby, but I don't know much
about his sobriety.

A couple of people I've talked to seem to
think he drank again, but I've never seen or
heard that from any authoritative source.
What can anyone tell me about that?

Thanks,
Mike M.

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++++Message 5000. . . . . . . . . . . . ICYPAA History
From: Andy . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/5/2008 12:18:00 PM

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Young People's Groups in Alcoholics Anonymous
began appearing around 1945 in Los Angeles,
Cleveland, and Philadelphia, and now they can
be found all across North America. In 1958, a
meeting of young AA's from across the U.S. and
Canada started what is now the International
Conference of Young People in Alcoholics Anon-
ymous (ICYPAA), and it has met on an annual
basis ever since. At the 1960 AA Convention,
Bill W. noted that the age of new members was
much lower than when he and Dr. Bob founded
AA 25 years earlier. In a letter to ICYPAA
dated June 15, 1969, Bill wrote "... in recent
years I have found nothing for greater inspira-
tion than the knowledge that A.A. of tomorrow
will be safe, and certainly magnificent, in
the keeping of you who are the younger genera-
tion of A.A. today."

ICYPAA was founded for the purpose of pro-
viding a setting for an annual celebration
of sobriety among young people in AA. Since
its inception, a growing group of people, who
at first would not consider themselves as
"young people," has become regular attendees.
The number of young people suffering from
alcoholism who turn to AA for help is growing,
and ICYPAA helps to carry AA's message of
recovery to alcoholics of all ages. This
meeting provides an opportunity for young AA's
from all over the world to come together and
share their experience, strength, and hope as
members of Alcoholics Anonymous. AA members
who attend an ICYPAA return home better pre-
pared to receive young people who come to AA
looking for a better way of life.

ICYPAA provides visible evidence that large
numbers of young people are achieving a
lasting and comfortable sobriety in Alco-
holics Anonymous. The three legacies of
AA -- Recovery, Unity, and Service -- are
the backbone of ICYPAA, just as they are
throughout AA. ICYPAA has a long history as
an established AA conference. It regularly
contributes to the AA General Service Office,
as well as to the Area Service Structure in
the local areas where it is held. ICYPAA and
its attendees are also committed to reaching
out to the newcomer, and to involvement in
every other facet of AA service. ICYPAA
participants can often be found serving at
the national, state, area, and group levels.
Newcomers are shown, by people their own age,
that using AA principles in their daily lives
and getting involved in AA service can have a
significant impact on a lasting and comfort-
able sobriety.

The 2008 ICYPAA will be held July 3-6 in
Oklahoma City, OK

Los Angeles, CA 2007 "Solid as Gibralter"

New Orleans, LA 2006 "Raise the Bottom"
postponed due to Katrina 2005

Orlando, Fl 2004 "we Stopped in Time"

Portland, OR 2003 "No-Middle-Of-The-Road
Solution"

Louisville, KY 2002 "A Design for Living"

Detroit, MI 2001 "Rebellion may be Fatal..."

Albuquerque, NM 2000 "Miracles Among Us"

Houston, TX 1999 "An Experience You Must
not Miss"

Washington, DC 1998 "The keys of the Kingdom"

Estes Park, CO 1997 "The High Road to a New
Freedom"

Anaheim, CA 1996 "We Absolutely Insist On
Enjoying Life"

Honolulu, HI 1995 "Willing to go to any
lengths"

Atlanta, GA 1994 "Together we fly"

New York, NY 1993 "Beyond your wildest
dreams"

Cleveland, OH 1992 "Back to Basics"

San Francisco, CA 1991 "There is a Solution"

Montreal, PQ 1990 "Heart to Heart around
the World"

Salt Lake City, UT 1989 "Carry the Message"

Nashville, TN 1988 "I am Responsible"

Boston, MA 1987 "A Magnificent Reality'"

Miami, FL 1986 "Sunlight of the Spirit"

Denver, CO 1985 "A Magnificant Reality"

Chicago, IL 1984

Cincinnati, OH 1983

New York, NY 1982

Minneapolis, MN 1981

Tucson, AZ 1980 "Sweet Surrender"

Vancouver, BC 1979 "Celebrate Sobriety"

Atlanta, GA 1978

Houston, TX 1977

Philadelpia, PA 1976 "The Spirit of 76"

Memphis, TN 1975

Indianapolis, IN 1974 "We've only just begun"

San Francisco, CA 1973

Cleveland, OH 1972

Reno, NV 1971

Fort Worth, TX 1970

Philadelphia, PA 1969

Toronto, Ont. 1968

Denver, CO 1967

St. Louis, MO 1966

Long Beach, CA 1965

Detroit, MI 1964

Columbia, SC. 1963

Hamilton, Ont. 1962

Milwaukee, WI 1961

Philadelphia, PA 1960

Chicago, IL 1959

Niagra Falls, 1958

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++++Message 5001. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Live Easy But Think First
From: Steve Stevenson . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/4/2008 4:27:00 PM

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If you arrange the slogans in a particular
order and use the first word of each they will
spell out:

LIVE and let live,

EASY does it,

BUT for the grace of God,

THINK think think,

FIRST things first.

- - - -

Also from: MarionORedstone@aol.com
(MarionORedstone at aol.com)

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++++Message 5002. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Did Rollie Hemsley drink again?
From: aalogsdon@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/5/2008 10:40:00 AM

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According to Bob Feller (who attended
Hemsley's funeral) and Hemsley's relatives
including Daughter, Granddaughter, and many
other relatives, Rollie never drank again.

In his recorded talk in 1968 he was still
using the sobriety date of April l6, 1939.

Some have written about Hemsley drinking again,
including Susan Cheever in her book on Bill W.
She gives the source of her information as
PASS IT ON, which does not in fact contain
any information to support the claim.

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++++Message 5003. . . . . . . . . . . . Editors of the Second Edition
From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/7/2008 10:50:00 AM

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The chief editor for the second edition was
Edward Hale B., an artist and writer and a
nephew (I believe) of a great 19th-century
painter of Western scenes.

Other editors were Maryland N. K., whose
husband was, I think, an original Batman (or
was it Superman?) comic artist,

Betty T. (I think T., and if so she may later
have been active in founding NA),

Tom (whether P. – of the 12&12 - or Y. - of
the Grapevine - I don't know),

and Ralph B., Bill's neighbor up by Katonah.

Which one of them edited the three first-
edition stories I can't say, though it might
be found out. Arch T. (changed-title story)
may have edited his own, as he died after the
Second Edition was published.

Clarence S.? Clearly Fitz M. didn't.

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++++Message 5004. . . . . . . . . . . . A Rollie Hemsley Story
From: Mike . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/6/2008 8:15:00 AM

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This appeared in the Columbus Dispatch today.
The last paragraph mentions that Rollie's
anonymity break affected his professional
career, even many years later.

Mike

http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/sports/stories/2008/05/06/columbus_bb_1
950.\

ART_ART_05-06-08_C1_LVA4ED9.html?sid=101 [13]

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++++Message 5005. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: As Bill Sees It: changed
quotations
From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/7/2008 6:52:00 PM

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At 19:56 4/28/2008, George Ewing wrote:

>I've perused As Bill Sees It for years but
>only recently noticed that many of the quotes
>from both the Big Book and Twelve Steps and
>Twelve Traditions are actually NOT quotes,
>but paraphrases.
>
>This disturbs me for a number of reasons,
>and since I noticed it I've left ABSI on
>the shelf.

It isn't as if they were trying to sneak
something by us as Bill W stated in the
Foreword to "As Bill Sees It" on p. iv,
"Because the quotations used were lifted out
of their original context, it has been
necessary in the interest of clarity to edit,
and sometimes to rewrite, a number of them."

>Does anyone know a) who decided to paraphrase
>the source material, b) whether the "letters"
>and Grapevine article snippets are also
>paraphrased?

Since the mention of editing was done by Bill,
I assume he either did it or leant his approval

to what was done.
____________________

That said, I have asked before on this forum
why the word transcendence was substituted for
victory in the Third Step Prayer on p. 210 and
have yet to receive an answer. Its use does
not seem to meet the criteria Bill listed.

Big Book Third Step Prayer p. 63:
"Take away my difficulties, that
victory over them may bear witness to
those I would help of Thy Power, Thy
Love, and Thy Way of Life."

As Bill Sees It Third Step Prayer p. 210:
"Take away my difficulties, that
my transcendence over them may bear witness to
those I would help of Thy Power, Thy
Love, and Thy Way of Life."
____________________

I would note that many things change over the
years. The Serenity Prayer we use is different
from the way Niebuhr wrote it, according to
his daughter. Scholars tell us the Christian
Bible has been changed thru the ages, but since
we have no original drafts, we have to depend
on textual analysis for attempts at what was
originally written.

The Foreword to the Fourth Edition of the Big
Book was changed almost as soon as it was
published, and I know of at least one local
Big Book Study that deems the First Printing
to be inappropriate for study. Go figure.
____________________

Off the top of my head, I am aware of only
about a half dozen places in "As Bill Sees It"
where editing has taken place, usually taking
sentences out to make the selection shorter.
There is no indication in the A.A.W.L./A.B.S.I.
where this has been done, but that is certainly
not unusual.

I use the book in my daily routine and usually
think of the changes only when I get to p. 210.
Your experience obviously has been different.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

- - - -

From Laurie A. <jennylaurie1@hotmail.com>
(jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com)

Re George Ewing's query about who was to blame
for paraphrasing AA literature in "As Bill Sees
It". There's no mystery - Bill himself was
responsible! See his foreword: "Because the
quotations used were lifted out of their
original context, it has been necessary in the
interest of clarity to edit, and sometimes to
rewrite, a number of them..."

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++++Message 5006. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Editors of Second Edition: Betty
T.
From: Chris Budnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/8/2008 1:20:00 AM

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A "Betty Thom" was involved with the HFD
(Habit Forming Drugs) groups in California and
had correspondence with Bill W. around 1954.
I've never come across any indication that
she was involved with the founding of
Narcotics Anonymous in 1953. One reference
I saw indicated that she did a lot of writing
and that HFD meetings were often held in
conjunction with AA meetings.

Here is the quote from a talk given by a
gentleman named Scott A. in 1991:

"Unrelated to that, in 1950, we also know that
there were Habit Forming Drug groups taking
place in Los Angeles, California, usually in
conjunction with AA meetings. They were also
held in homes. The principal person behind
them was a lady named Betty Thom. She did a
lot of writing. A member of our region used
to live up in Vista before he died. Last year
a friend of mine and I were allowed to go
through some of his books and papers, and he
had inches of writing from this HFD group.
They had a 12 Step guide. They had a bunch of
various articles that were type-written out on
pages like maybe a magazine article before it
got published or something. They were very
committed that the 12 Steps could work for
recovery from addiction."

Does anyone have additional information on her
or the accuracy of the above statement?

Chris

- - - -

From: jlobdell54
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008
Subject: Editors of the Second Edition

The chief editor for the second edition was
Edward Hale B., an artist and writer and a
nephew (I believe) of a great 19th-century
painter of Western scenes.

Other editors were Maryland N. K., whose
husband was, I think, an original Batman (or
was it Superman?) comic artist,

Betty T. (I think T., and if so she may later
have been active in founding NA),

Tom (whether P. - of the 12&12 - or Y. - of
the Grapevine - I don't know),

and Ralph B., Bill's neighbor up by Katonah.

Which one of them edited the three first-
edition stories I can't say, though it might
be found out. Arch T. (changed-title story)
may have edited his own, as he died after the
Second Edition was published.

Clarence S.? Clearly Fitz M. didn't.

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++++Message 5007. . . . . . . . . . . . Transcription of Henrietta
Seiberling''s remarks?
From: Rotax Steve . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/9/2008 12:43:00 PM

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I just recently heard from a speaker
(Keith L.) that in the mid 1970's, Henrietta
Seiberling was asked to be a speaker and she
was ill and could not do it. Her son spent
some time with her asking a lot of questions
which he recorded to take to the event. His
recording was said to have been transcribed.
Do any of you know of this and more
importantly do any of you have a copy of
the transcription? Was the recording ever
kept and copied, or did this even happen?

LOL, on a more humorous note, I just spell-
checked the above and the only correction
suggestion for Seiberling was "Sobering."

Thanks
~ Rotax Steve

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++++Message 5008. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: A Rollie Hemsley Story
From: Mark . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/8/2008 5:29:00 PM

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Hey Mike,

Thanks for the article, but I have a bit of a
nit to pick. The words in the article were...
"Hemsley was a recovering alcoholic, and
management feared he started drinking again
and that fueled some of his unorthodox
decisions," and that does not talk about any
anonymity break, or any possible membership
in any specific recovery organization which
might be concerned about anonymity breaks.

Thanks again for pointing us to this article.

Mark E.
Lebanon, Ohio

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++++Message 5009. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: A Rollie Hemsley Story
From: Michael F. Margetis . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/8/2008 7:50:00 AM

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It still only says management "feared" he
may have been drinking again ... still no
definitive answer. My hope is that he didn't
drink again. I just want to know (as much as
one can at this point) before I correct
someone who says he drank after his original
sobriety date.

I've had two people, who normally are sure of
their facts, say that he drank again. I told
them I thought he did NOT drink again, as far
as I knew, and they seemed surprised.

Neither could say where they read that and as
far as I can see from what I've read, (Dr. Bob
and the Good Oldtimers, Pass it On, Not God)
I can't find anything that says he did.

Thanks,
-Mike M.

In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" <tuswecaoyate@...> wrote:
>
> This appeared in the Columbus Dispatch today.
> The last paragraph mentions that Rollie's
> anonymity break affected his professional
> career, even many years later.
>
> Mike
>
>
http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/sports/stories/2008/05/06/columbu
s_bb_1950.ART_ART_05-06-08_C1_LVA4ED9.html?sid=101
>

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++++Message 5010. . . . . . . . . . . . What determines the date AA is
founded in a city?
From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/7/2008 6:59:00 PM

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As an alcoholic my sobriety date is the date I
started my journey towards continuous sobriety.
If I drink, my date is recalculated from the
date of the last drink. Many cities, however,
consider the date that AA came to the city
as the date of their 1st meeting.

In Philadelphia, it would be Feb. 28,1940.
AA started that day and has continued
uninterrupted to date.

Los Angeles says their 1st meeting was
December 19, 1939. In the booklet "How A. A.
Came to Los Angeles (Nothing can stop us
now)",it says, "Mort J came to Los Angeles.
He telephoned A. A. in New York and Ruth
Hock gave him Kaye Miller's telephone
number and address where she lived and had
meetings. He went over and asked "Where's
the meeting?" "There are no meetings any
more." Kaye said, "I'm disgusted. I'm going
to Hawaii or Europe." "Where are all the
members of A. A," he asked. "They are all
drunk," she said bitterly.

Mort J got in touch with Dr. Ethyl Leonard.
She worked with alcoholics. She happened to be
the house physician for the Cecil Hotel on
Main street. Through the good offices of Dr.
Leonard, Mort J rented a large room on the
mezzanine for $5.00. This was the first
public meeting of A. A. It was on a Friday at
8 PM, in March of 1940,"and meetings in LA
have continued uninterrupted since that date.

Is the date of a city'd continuous meetings
considered the date A. A. was founded there,
or is it the date of the 1st meeting which
never continued or "slipped"?

Many cities use the 1st meeting date as
bragging rights but sobriety is considered
as continuous.

I hope that some of you can help clarify this
matter.

See you in Niagara Falls NY in Sept.
Natl .Archives workshop
Shakey Mike Gwirtz

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++++Message 5011. . . . . . . . . . . . Henrietta Sieberling Talk as given
by John Sieberling
From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/13/2008 9:07:00 PM

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A transcription of her talk is at

http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/billwilsonmeetingsieberling.htm

- - - -

A reference to this source was also
sent in by <elg3_79@yahoo.com>
(elg3_79 at yahoo.com)

- - - -

From: "Maria Hoffman" <jhoffma6@tampabay.rr.com>
(jhoffma6 at tampabay.rr.com)

A transcript is also posted on Barefoots World:

http://www.barefootsworld.net/aaorighenriettas.html

- - - -

From: "rajiv.behappy" <rajiv.BeHappy@gmail.com>
(rajiv.BeHappy at gmail.com)

A transcript is given in the Fall 1985, Employee
Assistance Quarterly ISSN: 0749-0003

A part of the tape recording of the conversation
was played by her son John F. S. at the 1971
Founders Day meeting in Akron.

Much love from India,

Rajiv Bhole

- - - -

From: Jocelyn <prpllady51@yahoo.com>
(prpllady51 at yahoo.com)

I recently heard this recording again at the
Seiberling Estate (Stan Hywet Hall) at the
Gate House. They have copies available for
purchase at the gift shop. I don't know if a
transcription is available. You may want to
check with the curators/management.

Here is a link to the gift shop, and as you
can see you can order the CD for a cost of
$10.00. I highly recommend a personal trip.
Beside the AA history there,the estate is
alive with all sort of activities as well as
an amazing botanical garden.

http://www.stanhywet.org/product/item-13875999-7198-4fe2-85fc-93cb4507e4d6.a
spx

Regards,

Jocelyn

- - - -

This was also sent in by:
"Chris Budnick" <cbudnick@nc.rr.com>
Jerry Riley <jerrytwotord@hotmail.com>

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++++Message 5012. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Editors of Second Edition: Betty
T.
From: Sober186@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/13/2008 8:41:00 PM

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It might have been Superman, which was created
by Jerome Siegel (who wrote the story lines)
and Joe Shuster (who was the original artist).
Both were from the Cleveland area. Siegel
created the character as we know it in 1934.
The comic was first published in Action Comics
in the late 1930s.

Jim in Columbus

- - - -

In a message dated 5/12/2008
cbudnick@nc.rr.com writes:

Subject: Editors of the Second Edition

...Other editors were Maryland N. K., whose
husband was, I think, an original Batman (or
was it Superman?) comic artist,...

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++++Message 5013. . . . . . . . . . . . Upcoming Events (June 2008)
From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/14/2008 10:30:00 AM

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Annual Bill Wilson Day
Celebrating the 73rd Anniv. of the founding of AA
June 1, 2008
at the Wilson House (where Bill Wilson was born)
378 Village Street
East Dorset, VT 05253
For more info call 802/362/5524
**********
The AA Traditions & History Group along with
the Alcoholics in Action Group invite you to
an afternoon with Renowned AA Historian &
Archivist Jay S. from Redondo Beach CA
Come & hear Jay's inspiring & informative
talks on the Akron miracle, The Oxford Group
& our early AA roots.
Free Door Prize!
Saturday, June 7, 2008, 2:00 - 5:00PM
St. Joseph's School Cafeteria
44th Street & 30th Avenue (enter at 44th Street)
Astoria (Queens), NY 11103
For more info call 718/701/5801
**********
Come Celebrate Founders' Day
73rd Anniversary of AA
June 6 - 8, 2008
in Akron OH, Birthplace of AA
For more info go to http://www.akronaa.org/
& click on "Founders' Day"
**********
56th Annual Stepping Stones Picnic
June 7, 2008 - 12noon to 5:00PM (rain or shine)
At the historic home of Bill & Lois Wilson
62 Oak Road
Katonah (Bedford Hills), NY 10536
914/232/4822
Open Speaker Meeting starts at 2:00PM with
Greg M. from New York - General Manager
of GSO (AA)
Ric B. from Virginia (Al-Anon)
Mercedes V. from Mexico (Alateen)
For more info go to www.steppingstones.org
**********
The “Hightstown Early Birds” Group presents
An AA History Presentation with 250 Pictures of
Early AA with Barefoot Bill from West Milford NJ
Saturday, June 14, 2008
9:00AM – 11:45AM
First Presbyterian Church
320 North Main Street
Hightstown, NJ 08520
Pictures of the Washingtonians, Frank Buchman,
Rowland Hazard, Cebra Graves, Ebby T., Bill &
Lois W., Bill W.'s parents & grandparents,
Lois W.'s parents, Dr. Bob & family, all the
Ohio and Vermont places, Henrietta Seiberling,
Bill D., Ernie G., Clarence S., Sister Ignatia,
all the New York and New Jersey places, Charlie
Towns & Dr. Silkworth, Hank P., when the early
literature was published, the Rockefeller
dinner, gravesites, etc.
It's very exciting, combining the stories with
the images.
For more information please call Barefoot Bill
at 201/232/8749 (cell).
**********
Multi-District History & Archives Gathering
Registration opens at 8 a.m. on Saturday
June 21, 2008 at the St. Cecilia's Social Hall
750 State Drive
Lebanon PA 17042
Suggested topics for panels are:
**The Messengers to Ebby (Rowland H., Shep C.,
Cebra G.)
**AA and Baseball
**AA and Films/Theatre
**Early Days in the Mid-Atlantic Region
**AA Pioneers
**A Panel on Coming into AA in the Eastern
Pennsylvania Area in October 1970
(three old friends who have known each
other in sobriety for more than 35 years).
The Gathering is FREE with morning refreshments
and lunch provided.
End time about 4:30-5:00 p.m.
Contact the Chairman at histandarch@comcast.net

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++++Message 5014. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Henrietta Sieberling Talk as
given by John Sieberling
From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/14/2008 2:14:00 PM

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This Henrietta transcript is already on AA
History Lovers from when Nancy was still
facilitating.

Message 138

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/138

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++++Message 5015. . . . . . . . . . . . 26 Big Book Prayers
From: Hal . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/13/2008 8:18:00 PM

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I am on the hunt for a list of what I have
been told are 26 prayers in the BIG BOOK. Can
anyone help point me in the right direction?

THANKS!

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++++Message 5016. . . . . . . . . . . . Filmmakers seek memorabilia on
Cornwall Press for A.A. film
From: Chris Budnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/14/2008 12:49:00 AM

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The first printing of the Big Book was printed
by Cornwall Press in 1939. Some NYC filmmakers
are seeking memorabilia about this press for
a film they are making on the history of A.A.
______________________________

I came across the following story:

"NYC filmmakers seek memorabilia on
Cornwall Press era for A.A. film"

By Michael Randall

Times Herald-Record

May 12, 2008

CORNWALL - Check your attic, your basement
and your storage space. You might be able to
help make a movie.

Some New York City-based documentary film-
makers are working on a movie that will tell
the story of Alcoholics Anonymous.

The story has a local angle: The first edition
of "Alcoholics Anonymous," the fellowship
group's basic textbook (also commonly known
as "The Big Book") was printed by the Cornwall
Press in 1939.

But the business is long gone, and director
Kevin Hanlon and co-producer Dahlia Kozlowsky
say they've run into dead ends trying to
locate films, photographs or any other kind
of visual memorabilia of the Cornwall Press,
particularly from the '30s or '40s that would
evoke the era when the book was published.

So they're appealing to the public for help.
They figure somebody who used to work at the
Cornwall Press, or perhaps their sons and
daughters, might have some old movies or
photos from that era stored away somewhere.

A.A. grew out of a meeting in Akron, Ohio,
between a New York stockbroker, Bill W., and
an Akron surgeon, Dr. Bob S.

The beginnings of A.A. were detailed in a
1989 TV movie, "My Name is Bill W.," starring
James Woods and James Garner, but this will
be the first feature-length documentary on
the subject, Hanlon said.

"I was shocked nobody ever made a documentary
(about this) before," he said.

Hanlon said he was inspired to do the film
because he's known a number of alcoholics who
got sober through A.A. and its 12-step program.

The filmmakers haven't shot any local footage
yet, but they say that could happen later.
They don't know when it will be released;
they're still sorting through what Kozlowsky
describes as enough material "to make a 10-week
series on PBS, but that's probably not" where
it will end up playing.

mrandall@th-record.com

Anyone with film, photographs or other
memorabilia of the Cornwall Press in the
1930s/1940s can call Kozlowsky at 212/229/1358
or e-mail her at

Dkozlowsky@gmail.com
(Dkozlowsky at gmail.com)

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++++Message 5017. . . . . . . . . . . . The dispute over who founded AA in
Los Angeles
From: charles Knapp . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/14/2008 2:44:00 AM

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Hello Group,

I don’t know if I can answer the question
how to determine when AA officially comes to
a city, but I might be able to shed some light
on early AA in Southern California. How and
when AA came to Los Angeles is not as heated
a topic today as it used to be. It is my
understanding this topic actually divided some
of the early members here. According to
Kaye Miller the first AA meeting was held in
her home December 19, 1939. She was a
nonalcoholic who offered her home for that
meeting.

In a letter to Bill W., dated February 8
1947, she wrote about her recollection of
early AA in LA. In this letter she states
that her meeting moved to Glendale after a
couple weeks and rotated back and forth.
She also stated Mort J., attended her meeting
and didn’t come to LA until April 1940. In a
February 1952 Grapevine article it also cast
a shadow on the starting date for Mort’s
Cecil Hotel meeting and goes along the same
lines of Kaye’s recollections. ( Don't have a
copy of that article handy)

I do not have the whole story, but what I
have pieced together so far as to who founded
AA in Los Angeles came to a head in March 1951.
Bill came out to the West Coast to help members
elect a delegate to the first General Service
Conference. During the Saturday night meeting
the story of how AA got started in LA was
told and apparently made it look like Mort
was the sole founder of AA in Los Angeles.
The story did not settle well with some of
the early AAs and this started a heated letter
writing campaign to set the record straight.
Letters were sent to members, groups and central
offices with a copy of Kaye’s 1947 letter trying
to show what they believed to be an accurate
account of how AA got started in LA, but it
didn’t do much good.

The little blue booklet "How A. A. Came to
Los Angeles (Nothing can stop us now)" was
printed in the early 1980’s by the Southern
California Archives Committee. When it first
came out there were jokes that they had to wait
until some long timers died before they dared
published their version. From what I know now
I am not surprised if there was some truth in
those jokes.

Even AA Comes of Age (page 91) has a version
similar to the blue booklet. Kaye Miller had
gotten an advanced cope of AA Comes of Age and
was very irritated with Bill’s version of
events. While doing research a couple years
age at the GSO Archives in New York I saw at
least 2 letters from Kaye to Bill pleading
with him to revise his version before it was
published. He did make a couple of changes but
nothing like Kaye wanted. In one of Kaye’s
letters she even hinted some of the blame
falls with Mort for not setting the record
straight back in 1951 when he had a chance.

The 1947 letter might generate more questions
than answers, but I feel it shows Kaye's
meeting was going strong when Mort started
his meeting despite what the booklet says.
I plan on doing some research in the LA Central
Office Archives in June on other topics but
maybe I can find out some additional informa-
tion on this subject at that time.

I have included the redacted text of the 1947
letter for you to enjoy.

Hope this helps

Charles from California

******************************************

February 8, 1947

To: Messrs: Bill W., Luis A., Barney H.,
Clarence O’B., Ham B., Fred H., Frank S.,
Pete C., Johnny Howe, Hal S., Dee G., Mort J.,
Cliff W., “Doc” H., Al M., Editor, The Eye
Opener

This is just one of those rambling "remem-
bering when" things. If most of you think I'm
off my rocker for writing this, that's O.K.,
because where else but in A.A. could I do odd
things without fear of finger pointing? It's
a "first among you cast the first stone" deal,
isn't it?

Third time's the charm. I first heard about
A.A. though Andy in 1937 -- remember, Bill?
It wasn’t AA then -- The Book hadn't been
published yet. But I was sure Ty wouldn't go
for it. Smart guy I was -- I didn't even tell
him, just because God was involved. Then we
telephoned you in 1938, Bill -- but Ty wasn't
"ready". Then in April 1939 came to us in
West Los Angeles a mimeographed copy of the
Book. Did you keep that hysterical and
(I fear) dramatic telegram I sent - and the
follow-up? I shall never forget the utter
despair that filled me at your reply: "There
is a group in Akron, Ohio". Ohio! where Ty was
facing commitment for life if I returned him
and left him. Well- that ended right--with Ty
in A.A. But I remember that though I couldn't
believe you were alcoholics--you and Bob and
Hank and Marty, I still said that when I
returned to L.A. that I'd be glad to tell
anyone who was as desperate as I had been
that I'd seen 100 of you who said you'd been
alcoholics and that I knew you were decent
members of society now. But I got on an A.A.
jag on the boat coming back to L.A. Remember
Pat C. and how he got sober on the advance
sheets of the Book--his story "Lone Endeavor"
was in the first edition. I looked him up as
you asked me to Bill. I know he slipped and
went Fast--but at long last he is again trying
A.A. He may make it this time. You sent me
contacts, Bill, but there wasn't enough of
them, so I asked Alma Whitaker of the Times
to help--and she did.

From June 1939 to late November and nothing
definite accomplished--then our great and
wonderful break! On December 1st, 1939 was
sent to Johnny Howe, who was then Psychopathic
Probation Officer of A.A. county. He devoured
the Book and turned over to help A.A. all the
vast resources of L.A. County He and that
wonderful Mrs. Dodge! Then almost the same
day came the letter from Ruth Hock, New York
office's secretary, telling me that Lee T. was
coming to L.A. Here was opportunity -- a real
live member of A.A. coming here! We chose
December 19th as the date and I wrote to
everyone who'd contacted me, and on that date
in my little house on Benecia in West Los
Angeles the following met: Lee and Chuck T.,
Barney and Ethel H., Chauncey and Edna C.,
Dwight S. and his sister, Joey and Mrs. S.,
three non-alcoholic women, Johnny Howe and me!
Do you still have that telegram I sent in such
triumph: "Los Angeles held its first meeting
tonight. Fifteen present." Two meetings at my
house, then we moved to Barney H.s in Glendale,
then back to my house on Gower in Hollywood in
February, 1940. We alternated between Barney
and Ethel's house and mine. By then Hal and
Estelle S. had joined us (January 18, 1940).
What a terrific thing you did in starting the
San Diego group in the jail, Hal, and in
starting the groups in Lincoln Heights.

From December 19, 1939 to the present time,
Barney has never let a week go by without at
least one meeting attended. Clarence Mc.
joined us in early February or late January,
1940, and though he was a bar-tender, never
so much as sniffed at a drink from that time
on. All unbeknownst to us, another grand
member had been born. Mort J. got sober in
Palm Springs between Christmas and New Years
of 1939. It was in early April, 1940 you
telephoned me, Mort, wasn't it? You said
you had tried to start a group in Denver and
hadn't had too much success and had decided to
come back to L.A. and had gotten my name and
address from Bill. I treasured for years the
florist card on which you said: "For you
graciousness, you friendship and unfailing
hospitality", and the postscript you wrote on
one of those letters I sent weekly and some-
times daily to Bill reporting your progress:
"What this country needs is not a good five
cent cigar, but more Kayes." Is that still on
file, Bill? I blessed my secretarial training
for those carbon copies I kept, so I could
trace our progress. In February Lee started the
group that became the Pasadena Home Group. One
very illustrious early member of that group was
"Doc" H. – he led the downtown beginners group
for years. Then she went to San Francisco. Now
I hear she's in Florida. Los Angeles will always
be grateful to Lee for her untiring efforts for
us here. It was she who got the City Mother of
the Examiner to give us a break, and it was she
who got Ted Le Berthon's publicity for us.
Bill B. came to us in about March of 1940 and
what a God-send he was. Sober - a member of the
Chicago Group--wonderfully steady. How he
helped us in those trying early days. Then he,
too, went to San Francisco. Frank C. joined us
while we were meeting in the house we'd rented
as a clubhouse on Crescent Heights in 1940
(either March of April). What a relief it was
to be able to be sure the group was in your
capable hands, Mort, when I went back to
Honolulu in May of 1940, and what a splendid
job you did in building up the group and
laying the foundation for all the many groups
here in the Los Angeles area. L.A. will never
forget Frank R., and the wonderful work he and
you did working together. I don't know exactly
when Frank came in, but it was after May 5, 1940.

Now that I am again faced with leaving
Southern California A.A., I desperately want
to straighten up any misunderstanding. Joy S.
is the oldest member in point of sobriety in
A.A., but he hasn’t been to a meeting since
April or May of 1940. Barney H. was at the
first meeting, too, but he had a little
trouble at first. Hal S. is the oldest member
who stayed sober and came to meetings starting
January 18, 1940. Mort Joseph was sober three
weeks before Hal, but didn't come to a meeting
in L.A. until about April (1940) (Bill's office
would have the exact date). That original gang
was the foundation of the group now known as
the "Mother Group". They outgrew our homes and
rented space at the Cecil Hotel, from there
they progressed--when I was here in March of
1941 they met at the Elk's Temple.

A.A. in Southern California is so pure and
unadulterated, don't spoil it EVER. If there
MUST be any glory attached to A.A., let it
rest equally on Barney, Hal and Mort, and on
all those people who tried so valiantly in
those earl days-- and Bill P., Wally K.,
Owen F. --A.A. is too big for petty squabbles.
The truth is bound to come out. What does it
matter who was first? We've pioneered so many
things here in L.A.-all men and all women
groups, colored groups and non-alcoholic
groups. If they exist in the East, I couldn't
find them in Chicago or Washington, D.C.

I shall always remember Bill Wilson's words
to me: "Though I am proud to have been an early
member of Alcoholics Anonymous, I'd still sell
my title as `Founder' for $1.98." That's true
humility, and if it's good enough for Bill,
it's good enough for me.

/s/ Kay Miller
`Scuse the lousy typing

******************************************

Shakey1aa@aol.com wrote in Message 5010, "What
determines the date AA is founded in a city?"

Los Angeles says their 1st meeting was
December 19, 1939. In the booklet "How A. A.
Came to Los Angeles (Nothing can stop us
now)",it says, "Mort J came to Los Angeles.
He telephoned A. A. in New York and Ruth
Hock gave him Kaye Miller's telephone
number and address where she lived and had
meetings. He went over and asked "Where's
the meeting?" "There are no meetings any
more." Kaye said, "I'm disgusted. I'm going
to Hawaii or Europe." "Where are all the
members of A. A," he asked. "They are all
drunk," she said bitterly.

Mort J got in touch with Dr. Ethyl Leonard.
She worked with alcoholics. She happened to be
the house physician for the Cecil Hotel on
Main street. Through the good offices of Dr.
Leonard, Mort J rented a large room on the
mezzanine for $5.00. This was the first
public meeting of A. A. It was on a Friday at
8 PM, in March of 1940,"and meetings in LA
have continued uninterrupted since that date.

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++++Message 5018. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The dispute over who founded AA
in Los Angeles
From: Charles Grotts . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/16/2008 6:45:00 PM

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If you get the cassette tape of a program in
1975, hosted by Sybil, where Mort J. and some
of the old-timers who founded AA in Los Angeles
spoke, it will provide you with a lot of
information about how AA started in 1939 in
Los Angeles, died out, and was revived in 1940.

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++++Message 5019. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The dispute over who founded AA
in Los Angeles
From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/17/2008 9:56:00 PM

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Hi Folks,

This is Mel B. from Toledo offering an
opinion about the start of AA in Los Angeles.
I interviewed Kaye Miller in Sarasota and her
former husband, Ty Miller, in Cleveland, both
around 1980. Ty, unfortunately, was so far
gone with Alzheimer's that he couldn't come
up with any accurate memories.

In October, 1948, I heard a Glendale man
named Barney Haller speak in Santa Barbara.
He said that a group of them were meeting at
the request of the courts in 1939, but their
meeting wasn't AA at the time. Then a woman
wearing a fur coat and carrying a Big Book
popped into one of their meetings and told
how the program had helped her ex-husband.
I believe this was Kaye Miller, and she had
carried the book from the East on a trip to
the West. Barney apparently claimed this as
the start of AA in LA.

I don't know if this can be verified or
not. But I toss it into the hopper as another
opinion. I did see Barney once again and as
late as 1959, when he was still an active
member of the Glendale group.

However AA got to California, it really
took off when it did. Ohio led all the states
in AA membership until 1948, when California
took the lead. We can assume California has
had the lead ever since. My theory is that
California was already full of people who had
taken geographical cures by moving west. Once
they got to California, they couldn't go any
farther so they had no choice but to sober up!

Mel

Mel Barger < melb@accesstoledo.com >
(melb at accesstoledo.com)

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++++Message 5020. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 26 Big Book Prayers
From: Debi Ubernosky . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/15/2008 12:37:00 AM

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From: "Debi Ubernosky" <dkuber1990@verizon.net>
(dkuber1990 at verizon.net)

A Google search of "Prayers of the Big Book"
returned this:

http://www.ppgaadallas.org/ppgaa6%20Articles/Big%20Book%20Prayers.doc

which is what I've seen before.

Alternately, go to
http://www.ppgaadallas.org/aa_articles.htm
and scroll down to "Prayers of the Big Book"
and click to download the MS Word doc.

Debi

- - - -

From: Bill Lash <barefootbill@optonline.net>
(barefootbill at optonline.net)

Please go to:

http://www.justloveaudio.com
click on "free resources"
then click on "12 Steps"
then click on "Step 10 & 11"
then click on "Step 11 Prayers in the Big Book"

Happy hunting!

Just Love,
Barefoot Bill

- - - -

From: "Donna Bridges"
<donnabridges1018@gmail.com>
(donnabridges1018 at gmail.com)

Start at page i, read through page 164 and note
as you find them...I'm sorry, I'm channeling my
sponsor

hugs to all,

db

- - - -

From: Jocelyn Geboy
<jocelyngeboy@sbcglobal.net>
(jocelyngeboy at sbcglobal.net)

i'm curious what you find out ... i find these
places where prayer is *explicitly* mentioned,
but i was going through the book pretty fast ...

pp. 59, 63, 67, 68, 69, 76, 83, 84, 85, 86, 86,
87, and 87

jocelyn

- - - -

Original Message No. 5015
From Hal <hallaws@yahoo.com>
(hallaws at yahoo.com)

> I am on the hunt for a list of what I have
> been told are 26 prayers in the BIG BOOK. Can
> anyone help point me in the right direction?
>
> THANKS!

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++++Message 5021. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Editors of Second Edition: Tom
P.
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/19/2008 4:57:00 PM

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Message #5003 from <jlobdell54@hotmail.com>
(jlobdell54 at hotmail.com) noted that

"the chief editor for the second edition was
Edward Hale B."

It went on to say that other editors included
"Tom (whether P. – of the 12&12 - or Y. - of
the Grapevine - I don't know)."
______________________________

In a further message (18 May 2008) to
mdingle76@yahoo.com (mdingle76 at yahoo.com)

Jared Lobdell added the following remark:

"Thanks very much. My guess had been it was
Tom P (rather than Tom Y) but I wasn't sure.

I'd be interested to know which was the story
Tom included that some AAs didn't like (or
whose author they didn't like)."

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++++Message 5022. . . . . . . . . . . . Re:The dispute over who founded AA
in Los Angeles
From: Doris Ringbloom . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/19/2008 4:31:00 PM

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Regarding Pasadena, I had always heard it was
Duke P that started in AA in Pasadena in 1940
at the South Pasadena Women's club. When
people talk of AA in Los Angeles, it's not
clear whether they mean L.A. the city proper,
or Los Angeles county.

Doris R.

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++++Message 5023. . . . . . . . . . . . California Supreme Court
From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/20/2008 5:47:00 PM

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Does anybody have any information on this
subject?

Thanks

....the California Supreme Court ordered all
Hazelden and A.A. literature removed from the
California schools on the grounds that
Hazelden was promoting a religion.

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++++Message 5024. . . . . . . . . . . . Jung & Alcoholics Anonymous
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/23/2008 6:45:00 PM

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From: "John Blair" <jblair@wmis.net>
(jblair at wmis.net)

Jung & Alcoholics Anonymous:
Nautis Project on UTube

See http://www.nautis.com/2008/05/22/jung-alcoholics-anonymous/

Or go directly to YouTube and see the original
video directly. It was posted by: amourxxx112,
and is entitled "Jung, Alcoholics Anonymous,
And Drug Seeking Behaviour"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceoB-tE5yWI

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++++Message 5025. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: who founded AA in Los Angeles /
Pasadena
From: steven.calderbank@verizon.net> . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/19/2008
5:32:00 PM

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Unless I am mistaken, didn't Duke P. start AA
in Toledo? I heard him speak at his 56 year
(I think) anniversary in 99 or 2000 near
Jacksonville Florida.

He spoke a little about Toledo but that was
all. He didn't mention California.

We are talking about the Duke P. from "Dr Bob
and the Good Oldtimers," correct?

- - - -

Message #5022 from
"Doris Ringbloom" <dringbloom@netzero.net>
(dringbloom at netzero.net)

Re: The dispute over who
founded AA in Los Angeles

Regarding Pasadena, I had always heard it was
Duke P that started in AA in Pasadena in 1940
at the South Pasadena Women's club. When
people talk of AA in Los Angeles, it's not
clear whether they mean L.A. the city proper,
or Los Angeles county.

Doris R.

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++++Message 5026. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: who founded AA in Los Angeles /
Pasadena
From: Sally Brown . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/19/2008 7:19:00 PM

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A historical footnote to Pasadena AA: Thanks
to the founding of an AA group around 1940
(this seems to be an unresolved date so far -
does GSO have a record?), a local resident,
Tom Pike, joined in 1946. Three years later,
in 1949, his equally famous wife, Katherine,
already a community leader (but not an
alcoholic), founded the Pasadena affiliate
of the National Council on Alcoholism.
Pasadena was the second Calif NCA affiliate,
after Santa Barbara. Both Pikes became
prominent leaders in NCA nationally.

This is a good example of AA's spillover
effect in many, many communities. Once AA was
established, NCA (NCADD today) then became
a primary mover and shaker in stimulating
communities to undertake the myriad tasks of
reducing the stigma of addiction that AA could
not, e.g. education beyond the AA membership
about addiction, lobbying for adequate medical
care of alcoholics, influencing local, state,
and federal legislation on behalf of alcoholics,
etc.

Marty Mann, the founder of NCA and herself a
very early member of AA (1939, NYC), said her
organization might never have got off the
ground if AA didn't already exist as an
excellent resource and solution for referral.

Shalom - Sally

Rev Sally Brown
Board Certified Clinical Chaplain
United Church of Christ

Coauthor with David R Brown: A Biography of
Mrs. Marty Mann: The First Lady of Alcoholics
Anonymous

1470 Sand Hill Rd, 309
www.sallyanddavidbrown.com
Palo Alto, CA 94304
Phone/Fax: 650/325/5258

- - - -

Note from the moderator:

Tom Pike and Brinkley Smithers personally
lobbied President Nixon, their fellow
Republican, in support of the Hughes Act.
Brink eventually also enlisted the support
of Don Kendall, the CEO of Pepsi, and Nixon
finally signed the bill, which was the most
important piece of successful alcoholism
legislation in U.S. history. This provided
the basis, in many crucial ways, of the
modern alcoholism and drug addiction
treatment center.

See the book by Nancy Olson, who founded
the AAHistoryLovers, "With a Lot of
Help from Our Friends: The Politics of
Alcoholism," for the full story of how a
small number of AA members combined forces
to get that epoch-making piece of legis-
lation passed and implemented by the U.S.
Congress.

http://hindsfoot.org/kNO1.html

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana, US)

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++++Message 5027. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: California Supreme Court
From: steven.calderbank@verizon.net> . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/22/2008
3:11:00 PM

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I know there were simlar court cases slightly
related to it. There is a movement to have AA
labeled as religion:

http://www.sfgate.com/flat/archive/2007/09/07/chronicle/archive/2007/09/07/B
A99S\

1AKQ.html [14]

San Francisco Chronicle

Parolees can't be forced into
Alcoholics Anonymous, court rules

Bob Egelko, Chronicle Staff Writer

Friday, September 7, 2007

SAN FRANCISCO - Alcoholics Anonymous, the
renowned 12-step program that directs problem
drinkers to seek help from a higher power,
says it's not a religion and is open to
nonbelievers. But it has enough religious
overtones that a parolee can't be ordered
to attend its meetings as a condition of
staying out of prison, a federal appeals
court ruled today.

In fact, said the Ninth U.S. Circuit Court of
Appeals in San Francisco, the constitutional
dividing line between church and state in such
cases is so clear that a parole officer can be
sued for damages for ordering a parolee to go
through rehabilitation at Alcoholics Anonymous
or an affiliated program for drug addicts.

Rulings from across the nation since 1996 have
established that "requiring a parolee to attend
religion-based treatment programs violates the
First Amendment," the court said. "While we in
no way denigrate the fine work of (Alcoholics
Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous), attendance
in their programs may not be coerced by the
state."

The 12 steps required for participants in both
programs include an acknowledgment that "a power
greater than ourselves could restore us to
sanity," and a promise to "turn our will and
our lives over to the care of God as we
understood Him." They also call for prayer
and meditation.

Today's 3-0 ruling allows a Honolulu man to go
to trial in a suit on behalf of his late father,
Ricky Inouye, who was paroled from a drug
sentence in November 2000. A Buddhist, he
objected to religiously oriented drug treatment
in prison, sued state officials over the issue,
and told Hawaii parole authorities just before
his release that he would object to any
condition that included a treatment program
with religious content.

When Inouye was arrested for trespassing in
March 2001 and tested positive for drugs, his
parole officer, Mark Nanamori, ordered him to
attend a Salvation Army treatment program that
included participation in Narcotics Anonymous
meetings, the court said.

Inouye showed up but refused to participate,
dropped out after two months, and, for that
and other reasons, was sent back to prison
in November 2001 for violating his parole.

After his release in 2003, he sued Nanamori
and others for violating his constitutional
rights. Inouye died while the suit was pending
and his son took over the case.

A federal judge dismissed the suit, saying
officers are required to pay damages for
violating constitutional rights only when
those rights are already clearly established.

But the appeals court said Nanamori should have
known in 2001 that coerced participation in a
religion-based program was unconstitutional,
because eight state and federal courts had
ruled on the issue by then and all had agreed
that a parolee has a right to be assigned to
a secular treatment program.

E-mail Bob Egelko at begelko@sfchronicle.com
(begelko at sfchronicle.com)

- - - -

Original message From <jax760@yahoo.com>
(jax760 at yahoo.com)

Does anybody have any information on this
subject? Thanks

....the California Supreme Court ordered all
Hazelden and A.A. literature removed from the
California schools on the grounds that
Hazelden was promoting a religion.

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++++Message 5028. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: California Supreme Court
From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/22/2008 3:59:00 PM

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From Mitchell K. and Bill Middleton

- - - -

From "Mitchell K." <mitchell_k_archivist@yahoo.com>
(mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com)

It is interesting that this would even be called a
subject. It sounds like something quoted out of the
writing of Secret Agent Orange from the Orange-Papers
or some other AA bashing site.

I would think right off the top of my head that no
suppreme court would ban all literature from any
publisher regardless whether or not that publisher
promoted religion. Secondly, despite what those folks
in AA Basher land would like to think, I do not recall
any court ruling that AA was a religion. Many courts
have ruled that AA was religious in nature and a
religious activity but again, I do not recall any
ruling stating that AA was a religion.

I don't engage in a debate with AA bashers, especially
students of Secret Agent Orange. Orange has a great
Curriculum called "Propaganda and Debating Techniques"
on how to engage "steppers" in debate with some really
neat arguments. One will never win with these folks
(whatever win means) as their agenda is not to debate
or discuss but to frustrate.

Upon review of the web site of the California Courts
( http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/ ) I found nothing about
this what I believe is another urban legend. I also
reviewed the California Department of Education web
site and again, found nothing relating to this.

Most governmental agencies, bowing to court rulings
stating that AA is a religious activity no longer
mandate attendance at meetings or mandating reading AA
literature. One such edict can be found at
http://www.oasas.state.ny.us/mis/bulletins/lsb2002-05.cfm
- The New York State Office of Alcoholism and
Substance Abuse Services Local Services Bulletin
#2002-05

It goes into detail about "the providers who mandate
participation in A.A., is a violation of the principle
of separation of church and state."

Simply put according to what I looked at on the net -
URBAN LEGEND

- - - -

From: William Middleton <wmiddlet44@yahoo.com>
(wmiddlet44 at yahoo.com)

I "Googled" that sentence and it returned
this address....

http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-spirrel.html

That article said:

"Kurtz, in Not-God: A History of Alcoholics
Anonymous, 1991, page 281, says that one large
treatment agency accounts for two thirds of
the outside sales of A.A.W.S. literature.
Without a doubt, that one treatment agency is
Hazelden. They so aggressively redistribute
A.A. literature that the California Supreme
Court ordered all Hazelden and A.A. literature
removed from the California schools on the
grounds that Hazelden was promoting a
religion."

May GOD Bless You!
Bill

- - - -

Original message from <jax760@yahoo.com>
(jax760 at yahoo.com)

Does anybody have any information on this
subject? Thanks

....the California Supreme Court ordered all
Hazelden and A.A. literature removed from the
California schools on the grounds that
Hazelden was promoting a religion.

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++++Message 5029. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: California Supreme Court
From: David . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/23/2008 5:42:00 PM

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From crescentdave, dikilee, and chief_roger

- - - -

From "David" <crescentdave@yahoo.com>
(crescentdave at yahoo.com)

Here's one piece of the puzzle: per Michael J.
Bohn, M.D., Clinical Associate Professor,
Department of Psychiatry, U.W. Medical School,
Gateway Recovery, Madison, WI reported in 1994:
AA and Hazelden materials religious and banned
from California Youth Authority classrooms.

Note: this is NOT the same as regular public
schools.

cit:
http://dhfs.wisconsin.gov/substabuse/Education/Teleconference/ArchivedMateri
als/\

2002presentations/AATALK021202.pdf. [15]

- - - -

From: "Dick" <dikilee@yahoo.com>
(dikilee at yahoo.com)

There was a 1994 California case: California
State Employees Association vs. The California
Youth Authority, in which the court held that
Hazelden materials could not be used in CYA
classrooms. I do not believe this was the
California Supreme Court as a year later it
was thrown out by another judge.

- - - -

From: ROGER WHEATLEY <chief_roger@yahoo.com>
(chief_roger at yahoo.com)

I found this on an atheist website along with
other litigation supporting their view that AA
is a religious organization.

"In 1994, all materials from Hazelden
Publications, a publishing arm of AA, were
ordered out of California Youth Authority
classrooms. Additionally, decrees announcing
the right to refuse Twelve-Step participation
were posted in all living quarters."

http://www.americanatheist.org/spr97/T2/piety.html

- - - -

Original message from <jax760@yahoo.com>
(jax760 at yahoo.com)

Does anybody have any information on this
subject? Thanks

....the California Supreme Court ordered all
Hazelden and A.A. literature removed from the
California schools on the grounds that
Hazelden was promoting a religion.

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++++Message 5030. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Big Book cover and Ray Campbell
From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/22/2008 6:31:00 PM

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Even though this is a reply to an oldie here is some
more biographical info about Ray...

Raymond M. Campbell was approximately 44 years old
when he designed the Dust Jackets for the Big Book. He
was born on 12, September 1894 in New Haven
Connecticut. During his lifetime he lived in
Connecticut and Manhattan (NYC). In 1938, Ray lived at
the Gipsy Trail Club in Kent, NY which had a Carmel,
NY mailing address. Circa 1921 he married a woman
named Fanny who was born in NY around 1891. Fanny
predeceased Ray.

Ray died in Orange, Connecticut (New Haven County) on
15, January 1986.

Even though according to the US Census, Ray was listed
as a printer and artist and folks have said he was a
recognized artist, I have yet to find any examples of
his art work other than the Dust Jacket. Nell Wing
told me that Ray had painted a portrait of Jesus that
was supposed to have been a real work of art. Neither
she nor Lois remembered where that portrait ended up.
I am continuing to research to find more information.

I also tracked down a relative of T. E. Borton whose
home one of the early Cleveland meeting was held. Mr.
Borton was not a member of AA but the relative has not
answered any of my attempts at contacting him. T.E.
Borton IV lives in Atlanta, GA

Lots of living relatives I have been trying to locate
appear to be reluctant to answer any attempts at
contact. It would be nice to find out how our founding
members spent the rest of their lives.

Irwin Meyerson, the Jewish Venetian Blind salesman
from Cleveland and sponsored by Clarence Snyder and
helped start AA in Atlanta, GA, West VA and had some
influence in Indiana and orher places was living in
Los Angeles, CA in 1964. His father Meyer died in 1964
in North Hollywood, CA.

I'm trying to do a research piece on whatver happened
to....

--- Glenn Chesnut <glennccc@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> Here is Nancy Olson's short bio of Ray Campbell,
> who designed the Big Book dust jackets we have
> been discussing:
>
> http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/Authors.htm
>
> An Artist's Concept -- Ray Campbell
> New York City
> p. 380 in 1st edition
>
> Ray joined the fellowship in February 1938.
>
> He began his story by quoting Herbert Spencer:
> "There is a principle which is a bar against
> all information, which is proof against all
> arguments and which can not fail to keep a man
> in everlasting ignorance-that principle is
> contempt prior to investigation."
>
> He said that the quotation is descriptive of
> the mental attitudes of many alcoholics when
> the subject of religion, as a cure, is first
> brought to their attention. "It is only when
> a man has tried everything else, when in utter
> desperation and terrific need he turns to
> something bigger than himself, that he gets
> a glimpse of the way out. It is then that
> contempt is replaced by hope, and hope by
> fulfillment."
>
> Ray chose to write of his search for spiritual
> help rather than "a description of the neurotic
> drinking that made the search necessary."
>
> After investigating his alcoholic problem from
> every angle, medicine, psychology, psychiatry,
> and psychoanalysis, he began "flirting" with
> religion as a possible way out. He had been
> approaching God intellectually. That only
> added to his desperation, but a seed had been
> planted.
>
> Finally he met a man, probably Bill Wilson,
> who had for five years "devoted a great deal
> of time and energy to helping alcoholics."
> The man told him little he didn't already know,
> "but what he did have to say was bereft of all
> fancy spiritual phraseology -- it was simple
> Christianity imparted with Divine Power."
>
> The next day he met over twenty men who "had
> achieved a mental rebirth from alcoholism."
>
> He liked them because the were ordinary men
> who were not pious nor "holier than thous."
>
> He notes that these men were but instruments.
> "Of themselves they were nothing."
>
> He must have been an intellectual type. He not
> only quotes Spencer, but Thoreau: "Most men
> lead lives of quiet desperation."
>
> It was Ray, a recognized artist, who was asked
> to design the dust jacket for the 1st edition
> of the Big Book. He submitted various designs
> for consideration including one that was blue
> and in an Art Deco style. The one chosen was
> red, and yellow, with a little black, and a
> little white. The words Alcoholics Anonymous
> were printed across the top in large white
> script. It became known as the circus jacket
> because of its loud circus colors. The unused
> blue jacket is today in the Archives at the
> Stepping Stones Foundation.
>
> His story was not included in the Second
> Edition of the Big Book but the Spencer quote
> was placed in the back of the book in
> Appendix II, "Spiritual Experience."
>
>
>

The most wonderful thing about losing my memory is that now I will always be
able to discover new places, meet new people and make new friends...

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++++Message 5031. . . . . . . . . . . . Lois'' Picnic is June 7th ,not June
3rd
From: Gene . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/24/2008 1:03:00 PM

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Friends,

The notice sent out by the group is incorrect-
It is the Annual Steppingstones picnic in Bedford-
It is always the first Saturday in June

This year the date is June 7th
http://www.steppingstones.org/house.html

Gene in Westchester

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++++Message 5032. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: California Supreme Court
From: David . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/25/2008 6:04:00 PM

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Your desire to draw a point of significant distinction between the
concepts of religion and religious are explicitly rejected by the 7th
Circuit Court in it's ruling:

In the United States Court of Appeals For the Seventh Circuit

No. 95-1843

JAMES W. KERR,
Plaintiff-Appellant,
v.
CATHERINE J. FARREY and LLOYD LIND,
Defendants-Appellees.

Appeal from the United States District Court for the Western District
of Wisconsin. No. 94-C-942--John C. Shabaz, Chief Judge. ARGUED
JANUARY 12, 1996--DECIDED AUGUST 27, 1996

Before CUMMINGS, FLAUM, and DIANE P. WOOD, Circuit Judges.

DIANE P. WOOD, Circuit Judge, in her explication of the Circuit ruling:
The district court thought that the NA program escaped the "religious"
label because the twelve steps used phrases like "God, as we
understood Him," and because the warden indicated that the concept of
God could include the non-religious idea of willpower within the
individual. We are unable to agree with this interpretation. A
straightforward reading of the twelve steps shows clearly that the
steps are based on the monotheistic idea of a single God or Supreme
Being. True, that God might be known as Allah to some, or YHWH to
others, or the Holy Trinity to still others, but the twelve steps
consistently refer to "God, as we understood Him." Even if we expanded
the steps to include polytheistic ideals, or animistic philosophies,
they are still fundamentally based on a religious concept of a Higher
Power. Kerr alleged, furthermore, that the meetings were permeated
with explicit religious content. This was therefore not a case (again,
on the present record) where the only religious note was struck by the
insertion of the words "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance, or
other incidental references that the courts have upheld. See, e.g.,
Sherman v. Wheeling School District, 980 F.2d 437 (7th Cir. 1992).
Because that is true, the program runs afoul of the prohibition
against the state's favoring religion in general over non-religion.

The Court of Appeals of New York has recently come to the same
conclusion we reach today in Matter of David Griffin v. Coughlin, No.
73, 1996 WL 317180, 63 USLW 2003 (N.Y. App. Ct. June 11, 1996). In
that case, the Court of Appeals held that the Establishment Clause
does not permit the state to deprive an atheist or agnostic inmate of
eligibility for an expanded family visitation program because of his
refusal to participate in the sole alcohol and drug rehabilitation
program at his state correctional facility--the same AA and NA
programs at issue here. Two federal district courts have also decided
similar cases. In Warner v. Orange County Dept. of Probation, 870 F.
Supp. 69 (S.D.N.Y. 1994), the court decided that the Establishment
Clause was violated when the only option available to a convicted
motorist for required rehabilitation was the program run by AA.

I'd have to say this topic and the question which raised it have a
great deal to do with AA history. The influence of the courts, both
mandating AA attendance and then not doing so, have profoundly
affected AA groups- at least in the U.S. It brings up issues which go
to the heart of our traditions, aspects like affiliation, the
"lending" (volunteered or not) of our names and requirements for
membership.

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Mitchell K."
<mitchell_k_archivist@...> wrote:
>
> From Mitchell K. and Bill Middleton
>
> - - - -
>
> From "Mitchell K." <mitchell_k_archivist@...>
> (mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com)
>
> It is interesting that this would even be called a
> subject. It sounds like something quoted out of the
> writing of Secret Agent Orange from the Orange-Papers
> or some other AA bashing site.
>
> I would think right off the top of my head that no
> suppreme court would ban all literature from any
> publisher regardless whether or not that publisher
> promoted religion. Secondly, despite what those folks
> in AA Basher land would like to think, I do not recall
> any court ruling that AA was a religion. Many courts
> have ruled that AA was religious in nature and a
> religious activity but again, I do not recall any
> ruling stating that AA was a religion.
>
> I don't engage in a debate with AA bashers, especially
> students of Secret Agent Orange. Orange has a great
> Curriculum called "Propaganda and Debating Techniques"
> on how to engage "steppers" in debate with some really
> neat arguments. One will never win with these folks
> (whatever win means) as their agenda is not to debate
> or discuss but to frustrate.
>
> Upon review of the web site of the California Courts
> ( http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/ ) I found nothing about
> this what I believe is another urban legend. I also
> reviewed the California Department of Education web
> site and again, found nothing relating to this.
>
> Most governmental agencies, bowing to court rulings
> stating that AA is a religious activity no longer
> mandate attendance at meetings or mandating reading AA
> literature. One such edict can be found at
> http://www.oasas.state.ny.us/mis/bulletins/lsb2002-05.cfm
> - The New York State Office of Alcoholism and
> Substance Abuse Services Local Services Bulletin
> #2002-05
>
> It goes into detail about "the providers who mandate
> participation in A.A., is a violation of the principle
> of separation of church and state."
>
> Simply put according to what I looked at on the net -
> URBAN LEGEND
>
> - - - -
>
> From: William Middleton <wmiddlet44@...>
> (wmiddlet44 at yahoo.com)
>
> I "Googled" that sentence and it returned
> this address....
>
> http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-spirrel.html
>
> That article said:
>
> "Kurtz, in Not-God: A History of Alcoholics
> Anonymous, 1991, page 281, says that one large
> treatment agency accounts for two thirds of
> the outside sales of A.A.W.S. literature.
> Without a doubt, that one treatment agency is
> Hazelden. They so aggressively redistribute
> A.A. literature that the California Supreme
> Court ordered all Hazelden and A.A. literature
> removed from the California schools on the
> grounds that Hazelden was promoting a
> religion."
>
> May GOD Bless You!
> Bill
>
> - - - -
>
> Original message from <jax760@...>
> (jax760 at yahoo.com)
>
> Does anybody have any information on this
> subject? Thanks
>
> ....the California Supreme Court ordered all
> Hazelden and A.A. literature removed from the
> California schools on the grounds that
> Hazelden was promoting a religion.
>

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++++Message 5033. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Question about the circle,
triangle and other
From: chief_roger . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/26/2008 10:07:00 AM

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General Service Board of Alcoholics Anonymous (Great Britain) Limited
publishes much of its own literature. The hard cover Big Book is one
of these items (other versions of the BB are purchased from AAWS and
imported). Also some pamphlets it has borrowed and "anglecized" and
others produced by and for the population they serve. T
The "circle triangle" is used by the GSB GB (the body who publishes
this literature. The circle triangel was not "banned", AAWS chose to
drop it as a registered trademark for reasons probably detailed
elsewhere on this site and others. The version used on GB literatures
has the words unity, service, recovery around the outside of the
triangle.
I served as a conference delegate for the standadrd three years term
in GB. during that time, I learned a great deal about AA literature
in GB and its conference approval, development, and publication
differ significantly from the process in US/Canada.

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "ginnymatthew"
<ginnymatthew@...> wrote:
>
> I just received a fourth edition 2001 Big Book
> printed in Great Britain. The dust jacket and
> the title page have the AA circle and triangle
> logo that I thought was 'banned' from being
> used back in 1996. How is it that they are
> able to use this logo?
>
> Also on the front page is a disclaimer which
> states "No part of this publication may be
> reproduced, stored in a retrievable system,
> or transmitted in any form or by any means
> without the prior permission of the publisher."
>
> U.S. texts don't seem to have this disclaimer.
> What is that about?
>
> Gratefully,
> Ginny
>

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++++Message 5034. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: California Supreme Court
From: Charles Grotts . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/26/2008 12:25:00 PM

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I did a Westlaw search in California reported
and unreported cases from 1990-1999 and did
not find the word "Hazelden."

In California criminal sentencing law, AA is
considered a sectarian group. Attendance at
AA can still be made a condition of probation
but only if the probationer has an option to
attend a non-sectarian self-help group, and
only if the probationer does not object to it.
Cal. Code of Regulations, Title 9, Section 9860.

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++++Message 5035. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Big Book cover and Ray Campbell
From: John Lee . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/24/2008 3:21:00 PM

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Raymond Campbell also misquoted Thoreau. The
correct quote from Thoreau is, "The mass of
men lead lives of quiet desperation." The quote
can be found in Walden, published 1854.
John Lee
Pittsburgh

- - - -

See Ray C.'s story, "An Artist's Concept,"
First Edition pp. 380-385, where he alters
that line from Thoreau to say:

"'Most men,' wrote Thoreau, 'lead lives of
quiet desperation.' It was the articulation
of this despair that led to my drinking in
the beginning."

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++++Message 5036. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: California Supreme Court
From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/27/2008 8:59:00 AM

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Circuit judge Diane Wood's ruling would be
incontrovertible if AA members were required
to practice the 12 Steps as a religious
discipline; but as we know, the only require-
ment for AA membership is a desire to stop
drinking (or, as in my case, to stay stopped).
There is no creedal imperative in the AA
program.

Complications arise when, for example, patients
in a treatment centre are indeed required to
practice some or all of the 12 Steps as part
of that institution's regime. As Dave reminds
us, this dissonance goes to the heart of our
Traditions.

Bill W. wrote: "As a society we must never
become so vain as to suppose that we are
authors of a new religion. We will humbly
reflect that every one of AA's principles
has been borrowed from ancient sources."
(Alcoholics Anonmymous Comes of Age).

- - - -

From: Baileygc23@aol.com
(Baileygc23 at aol.com)

AA says it is not a religion and the written
word of AA reinforces this thought, but some
of the religious-minded within AA have
presented AA as a God-based thing. What can
the courts do but react to the vast majority
of the members and their need to expound on
their view of AA?

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++++Message 5037. . . . . . . . . . . . Anonymity statement
From: Alan Spencer . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/27/2008 11:35:00 AM

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Not too long ago I was at a meeting that had
the statement displayed:

"Whom you see here, what you hear here, when
you leave here, let it stay here. Anonymity
is the spiritual foundation of our program."

At the bottom it said Al-Anon. Is this where
this saying came from and is this what Al-Anon
calls their anonymity statement?

Alan S., New Mexico

- - - -

From the moderator:

Some of the AA meetings in my part of the US
have a reading which is read at the beginning
of meetings, called "The Tools of Recovery"

See http://hindsfoot.org/tools.html

It was put together by two of my sponsor's
sponsors. The seventh tool is that anonymity
statement. Some of the local folks say that
this statement was first read by one of the
people who put together the seven "tools of
recovery" when he was attending an Al-Anon
meeting (or in another version of the story
an O.A. meeting). I have never checked that
out though.

Do any members of our group know more about
this?

We also need to remember that, as Bill W.
himself once pointed out, everything in AA
was originally borrowed from someone else.

The "Think Think Think" signs came from IBM,
the Serenity Prayer from a newspaper obituary,
the Lord's Prayer at the end of meetings
from the Oxford Group, and so on.

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

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++++Message 5038. . . . . . . . . . . . Anonymity Statement
From: Art Boudreault . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/29/2008 6:04:00 PM

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Dear Alan,

This card is indeed published by Al-Anon Family Groups.

The official anonymity policy can be found in their Service Manual 2006 -
2009
on pages 83 and 84. The service manual is also available on the web site
http://www.al-anon.org/members

I copied the reference below my signature. The part in italics is often read
at
open Al-Anon meetings.

Sincerely,

Art Boudreault
Anonymity

The experience of our groups suggests that the principle of
anonymity—summed up
in Tradition Twelve as “the spiritual foundation of all our
Traditions”—has
three elements: There is anonymity as it applies outside Al-Anon, governing
our
contacts with nonmembers and organizations; anonymity within the fellowship;
and
anonymity as it contributes to our personal growth.

Anonymity Outside Al-Anon

Tradition Eleven gives a specific guideline: “we need always maintain
personal
anonymity at the level of press, radio, TV and films.” This gives
potential
members confidence that their identity will not be revealed when they join
Al-Anon. Also, personal anonymity at the public level guards the fellowship
from
the Al-Anon/Alateen member who may be tempted to seek public recognition.
When
speaking or writing as an Al-Anon/Alateen member at the level of press,
radio,
TV or films, use only first names or pseudonyms. In photographs for
publication
and in TV appearances, faces should not be recognizable. This may be
achieved by
back-tocamera or blurring of features in some way. It is, however, important
to
make Al-Anon known through our public information work with professionals
who
come into contact with families still suffering from the effects of
alcoholism.
Such contacts, of course, make it necessary for the Al-Anon and Alateen
members
involved to give their full names. Al-Anon members also give their full
names to
interested doctors, spiritual leaders, school or industrial personnel.

Anonymity Within Al-Anon

Members use their full names within the fellowship when they wish. The
degree of
anonymity a member chooses (first name, pseudonym, or full name) is not
subject
to criticism. Each member has the right to decide. Regardless of our
personal
choice, we guard the anonymity of everyone else in the fellowship,
Al-Anon/Alateen and A.A. This means not revealing to anyone—even to
relatives,
friends, and other members—whom we see and what we hear at a meeting.
Anonymity
goes well beyond mere names. All of us need to feel secure in the knowledge
that
nothing seen or heard at a meeting will be revealed. We feel free to express
ourselves among our fellow Al-Anons because we can be sure that what we say
will
be held in confidence.

84 Al-Anon/Alateen Members’ Web site: Digest of Al-Anon and Alateen
Policies

At open Al-Anon meetings, group anniversaries, conventions, or workshops
where
nonmembers are present, Al-Anon and Alateen members are free to decide how
much
anonymity they prefer. It is well to open such meetings with a brief
explanation
of the Eleventh and Twelfth Traditions. One suggestion is as follows:

There may be some who are not familiar with our Tradition of personal
anonymity
at the public level. If so, we respectfully ask that no Al-Anon, Alateen or
A.A.
speaker or member be identified by full name or picture in published or
broadcast reports of our meeting. The assurance of anonymity is essential to
our
efforts to help other families of alcoholics, and our Tradition of anonymity
reminds us to place Al-Anon and Alateen principles above personalities.

At the service level (Group Representatives, District Representatives, World
Service Conference members, etc.) it is practical to use full names and
addresses to facilitate communication. Letters (including the return
address) to
an Al-Anon or Alateen member should never have the name Al-Anon or Alateen
on
the envelope. Letters to The Forum should give full names, addresses and
phone
numbers. Material that is published will be signed any way the writer
wishes:
first name and initial, initials only, “Anonymous”—either with or
without
geographical location. Area Newsletter Editors usually follow this
procedure.

Anonymity in Our Personal Growth

Each member has the right of decision regarding personal anonymity within
the
fellowship. We share as equals, regardless of social, educational or
financial
position. Common sense in the use of anonymity provides freedom and the
security
each member is assured in Al-Anon. Our spiritual growth has its roots in the
principle of anonymity.

2. Anonymity statement
Posted by: "Alan Spencer" alan.nm46@yahoo.com alan.nm46
Date: Thu May 29, 2008 12:53 pm ((PDT))

Not too long ago I was at a meeting that had
the statement displayed:

"Whom you see here, what you hear here, when
you leave here, let it stay here. Anonymity
is the spiritual foundation of our program."

At the bottom it said Al-Anon. Is this where
this saying came from and is this what Al-Anon
calls their anonymity statement?

Alan S., New Mexico

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 5039. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Anonymity statement
From: Steven Leeds . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/29/2008 4:00:00 PM

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I've seen in documentaries about the Manhattan
Project the slogan "Whom you see here. What
you see here. When you leave here let it stay
here" posted in the factories.

I think it did may have originated from there.

Blessings,
Steven L.

- - - -

From the moderator:

The Manhattan Project (1941-1946) was the top
secret World War II project in which the United
States, Canada, and the United Kingdom worked
together to produce the first atomic bomb.
Research took place at over thirty sites in
the United States, Canada, and United Kingdom.

If this was a Manhattan Project slogan, it
seems likely that it was they who invented it,
and our Al-Anon sisters and brothers who then
later on "went nuclear" by adapting the slogan
for their use.

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana, U.S.)

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++++Message 5040. . . . . . . . . . . . Revising my beginners AA history
book page
From: diazeztone . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/29/2008 9:21:00 PM

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I am revising my beginners AA history book page.

http://www.aabibliography.com/beginnersbooks.htm

Suggestions and input are needed.

I certainly need to add Glenn'ss books. Any
other suggestions?

I am trying to keep this to one 8-1/2 by 11
inch page to make it easily printable.

Email me personally at <eztone@hotmail.com>
(eztone at hotmail dot com)

I would increase this list to two pages, if
the group thought there were that many books
that need to be added.

LD Pierce
editor aabibliography.com

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++++Message 5041. . . . . . . . . . . . Bob Corwin passing (was: Sybil C. &
Tex)
From: Alex H. . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/30/2008 12:52:00 AM

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I just received word that Bob Corwin (Sybil
Corwin's husband) died Saturday 24 May 2008
at the age of 86.

According to Matt M. Bob had a stroke last
year and had an assisted-living housekeeper
since then. Bob suffered from a second stroke
on Friday, was taken to the hospital and died
the next day. His son was at his bedside.

Bob C. came into AA in 1948 (Sybil had come
into AA in 1941) and after several relapses,
Bob maintained continuous sobriety for 44 years
until his death.

It has been Matt M's habit to call Bob C.
once a week but this time, Bob's son called
Matt.

Alex H.

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++++Message 5042. . . . . . . . . . . . Cooperation with Al-Anon and Alateen
statement
From: Pat Jehn, RN C, LNC . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/31/2008 2:37:00 PM

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Mates:

I have been trying to locate in A.A. literature
the part where "cooperation with Al-Anon and
Alateen" is encouraged.

We are having a problem with Tradition 6 in that
some people want to put include ACA (Adult
Children of Alcoholics) in meetings and meeting
schedules.

I understand that Tradition 6 should be
sufficient to cover this matter, but the
exact wording of the "cooperation with other
activities" statement would help.

Thanks for your assistance.

Pat Jehn, RN,C
Legal Nurse Consultant
MEDICAL-LEGAL CONSULTING, LLC
399 S. 12th St.
DeFuniak Springs, Fl 32435

PatJehn@Embarqmail.Com
(PatJehn at Embarqmail.Com)

850-951-9899

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++++Message 5043. . . . . . . . . . . . Significant June Dates in A.A.
History
From: chesbayman56 . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/31/2008 5:14:00 PM

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June 1:
1949 - Anne Smith, Dr. Bob's wife, died.

June 4:
2002- Caroline Knapp, author of "Drinking: A Love Story" died sober
of lung cancer.

June 5:
1940 - Ebby Thatcher took a job at the NY Worlds Fair.

June 6:
1940 - The first AA Group in Richmond, VA, was formed.
1979 - AA gave the two-millionth copy of the Big Book to Joseph
Califano, then Secretary of Health, Education, and Welfare. It was
presented by Lois Wilson, Bill's wife, in New York.

June 7:
1939 - Bill and Lois Wilson had an argument, the first of two times
Bill almost slipped.
1941 - The first AA Group in St. Paul, Minnesota, was formed.

June 8:
1941 - Three AA's started a group in Kalamazoo, Michigan.

June 10:
1935 - The date that is celebrated as Dr. Bob's last drink and the
official founding date of AA. There is some evidence that the
founders, in trying to reconstruct the history, got the date wrong
and it was actually June 17.

June 11:

1945 - Twenty-five hundred attend AA's 10th Anniversary in Cleveland,
Ohio.
1969 - Dr. Bob's granddaughter, Bonna, daughter of Sue Smith and
Ernie Galbraith (The Seven Month Slip in the First Edition) killed
herself after first killing her six-year-old child.
1971 - Ernie Galbraith died.

June 13:
1945 - Morgan R. gave a radio appearance for AA with large audience.
He was kept under surveillance to make sure he didn't drink.

June 15:
1940 - First AA Group in Baltimore, MD, was formed.

June 16:
1938 - Jim Burwell, "The Vicious Cycle" in Big Book, had his last
drink.

June 17:
1942 - New York AA groups sponsored the first annual NY area
meeting. Four hundred and twenty-four heard Dr. Silkworth and AA
speakers.

June 18:
1940 - One hundred attended the first meeting in the first AA
clubhouse at 334-1/2 West 24th St., New York City.

June 19:
1942 - Columnist Earl Wilson reported that NYC Police Chief Valentine
sent six policemen to AA and they sobered up. "There are fewer
suicides in my files," he commented.

June 21:
1944 - The first Issue of the AA Grapevine was published.

June 24:
1938 - Two Rockefeller associates told the press about the Big
Book "Not to bear any author's name but to be by 'Alcoholics
Anonymous.'"

June 25:
1939 - The New York Times reviewer wrote that the Big Book is "more
soundly based psychologically than any other treatment I have ever
come upon."

June 26:
1935 - Bill Dotson. (AA #3) entered Akron's City Hospital for his
last detox and his first day of sobriety.

June 28:
1935 - Dr. Bob and Bill Wilson visited Bill Dotson at Akron's City
Hospital.

June 30:
1941 - Ruth Hock showed Bill Wilson the Serenity Prayer and it was
adopted readily by AA.
2000 - More than 47,000 from 87 countries attended the opening
meeting of the 65th AA Anniversary in Minneapolis, MN.

Other significant events in June for which we have no specific date:

1948 - A subscription to the AA Grapevine was donated to the Beloit,
Wisconsin, Public Library by a local AA member.
1981 - AA in Switzerland held its 25th Anniversary Convention with
Lois Wilson and Nell Wing in attendance.

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++++Message 5044. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Significant June Dates in A.A.
History
From: John Lee . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/1/2008 1:46:00 PM

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Morgan R.'s radio appearance on Gabriel
Heatter's NBC program was in 1939, not in
1945. Previous postings, including one from
NBC licensing, indicate that the actual date
of the program was April 25, 1939, shortly
after the publication of the Big Book. Morgan
was sequestered in the Downtown Athletic Club
to ensure a sober appearance on the 1939 radio
show. I believe Morgan was the guy who ran a
multilith copy of the Big Book past the New
York Catholic Publications Office for its
comments. His crisp appearance at the 1940
Rockefeller dinner at the Union Club is also
noted in the Conference literature.

John Lee
Pittsburgh

- - - -

Message 5043 from <chesbayman56@yahoo.com>
(chesbayman56 at yahoo.com) said:

June 13:
1945 - Morgan R. gave a radio appearance for
AA with large audience. He was kept under
surveillance to make sure he didn't drink.

- - - -

From the moderator:

Hmmm. Could this have been an error that
crept into this year's date list? or has
there been reason to change the dating?

The date given up to this point has been
in the April section of the date list, as
in for example Messages 4941 (in 2008),
4206 (in 2007), and so on:

"April 25, 1939 - Morgan R interviewed on
Gabriel Heatter radio show."

See also:

- - - -

Message 4020: We The People Radio program 1939
From: <leeannplatner@yahoo.com>
(leeannplatner at yahoo.com)

We are searching for an episode of WE THE PEOPLE
radio program from April 1939 featuring Gabrielle
Heatter with guest, Morgan R and his discussion
of AA.

We produced the program, and have a transcript,
but we do not have a copy of the audio recording
and the holdings we donated to the Library of
Congress do not include this episode. We would
love to borrow and/or pay to have a dub made if
any member has an actual copy of this recording.

- - - -

Message 589: People in AA History - pt 4
From: <tcumming@airmail.net>
(tcumming at airmail.net)

Morgan R. - Irish Catholic, ex-ad man; came
A.A. early January 1939; had friend on Catholic
Committee Publications New York Archdiocese,
delivered mimeograph copy Big Book to committee,
they approved; spoke popular radio program
'We The People ' April 1939 shortly after
release Greystone institution; attended John
D. Rockefeller 's A.A. dinner Feb 1940; Wilson's
stayed his apartment about 2 months

(A 168-169,174-175,183) (B 286,295) (H 62)
(L 115,127) (N 47,75,90, 93) (P 201,207,208,
209,215,221,232-233)

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++++Message 5045. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Cooperation with Al-Anon and
Alateen statement
From: David Jones . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/31/2008 4:45:00 PM

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The Fellowships of Alcoholics Anonymous and the
Al-Anon Family Groups have a unique relationship.
They are naturally drawn together by their
close ties. And yet the Twelve Traditions, the
General Service Boards, and the General Service
Conferences of both Fellowships suggest that
each functions more effectively if it remains
"separate," cooperating but not affiliating
with the other. Each Fellowship has always had
its own General Service Board, General Service
Office, Conference, publishing company, and
directory. Each has established its own
policies and maintained its own services.
This separate functioning has served both A.A.
and Al-Anon Family Groups well. A.A.'s policy
of "cooperation but not affiliation" was
established as long ago as the early 1950s,
and both Al-Anon and A.A. recognized at that
time the importance of maintaining separate
Fellowships. However, from time to time,
questions come to both A.A. and Al-Anon
General Service Offices indicating confusion
as to how A.A. and Al-Anon may best cooperate
in the groups, intergroups or central offices,
and area and regional conventions and get
togethers. A.A. and Al-Anon have shared on
these questions, and A.A.'s General Service
Conference approved the following suggested
guidelines:

Question: Should a group be affiliated with
both A.A. and Al-Anon?

Answer: As the primary purpose of the A.A.
group is to help the sick alcoholic to recover
and the primary purpose of the Al-Anon Family
Group is to help the Al-Anon to live with
herself or himself, as well as with the
alcoholic, it is suggested they not be
combined, but remain separate groups. This
enables both Fellowships to function within
their Twelve Traditions and to carry their
messages more effectively. Thus, the group
name, the officers, and the meeting should be
either A.A. or Al-Anon, but not both. "The
A.A. Group" pamphlet suggests, "Whether open
or closed, A.A. group meetings are conducted
by A.A. members, who determine the format of
their meetings." At open meetings, non-A.A.s
may be invited to share, depending upon the
conscience of the group. Naturally, all are
welcome to open meetings of both A.A. and
Al-Anon groups.

Question: Should "family groups" be listed
in A.A. directories?

Answer: "After discussion, the Conference
reaffirmed A.A. group policy that only those
with a desire to stop drinking may be members
of A.A. groups; only A.A. members are eligible
to be officers of A.A. groups; nonalcoholics
are welcome at open meetings of A.A. It is
suggested that the word 'family' not be used
in the name of an A.A. group; if A.A.s and
their nonalcoholic mates wish to meet together
on a regular basis, it is suggested they
consider these gatherings 'meetings' and not
A.A. groups.

Listing in A.A. directories:

It was the sense of the meeting that the
family groups should not be listed under the
family group name in the directories.

Question: Should A.A. and Al-Anon have combined
central (or intergroup) services and offices?

Answer: Experience and the Twelve Traditions of
A.A. and Al-Anon suggest that each Fellowship
will function more effectively if each retains
separate committees, staffs, and facilities
for handling telephone calls, as well as
separate telephone answering services, inter-
group activities. bulletins, meeting lists,
and Twelfth Step services of all types. Also,
that the members involved in each service
committee or office be A.A. members, if an
A.A. facility, and Al-Anon, if an Al-Anon
facility.

Question: How may A.A. and Al-Anon cooperate in
area and regional conventions and get-togethers?

Answer: In accordance with the Twelve Traditions,
a convention would be either A.A. or Al-Anon --
not both. However, most A.A. convention
committees invite Al-Anon to participate by
planning its own program, and the committee
arranges for facilities for the Al-Anon meetings.

Question: When Al-Anon participates in an A.A.
convention, what is the financial relationship
between the two Fellowships?

Answer: The relationship and the financial
arrangements usually follow one of two
patterns: When an A.A. convention committee
invites Al-Anon to participate with its own
program, A.A. may pay all expenses (for
meeting rooms, coffee, etc.) and keep all
income from registrations, etc., in a single
fund used to pay all convention bills, after
which any excess income reverts back to A.A.
Alternatively, Al-Anon may have a separate
registration and pay its own direct expenses,
plus a proportionate share of common expenses
of the convention. Al-Anon, in this case,
receives its own share of the registration
income and also shares in any losses that
may be incurred.

A.A.®Guidelines from G.S.O., Box 459, Grand
Central Station, New York, NY 10163

A.A. Guidelines are compiled from the shared
experience of A.A. members in the various areas.
They also reflect guidance given through the
Twelve Traditions and the General Service
Conference (U.S. and Canada). In keeping with
our Tradition of Autonomy, except in matters
affecting other groups or A.A. as a whole,
most decisions are made by the group conscience
of the members involved. The purpose of these
Guidelines is to assist in reaching an informed
group conscience.

Relationship Between A.A. and Al-Anon

Question: Should an A.A. convention committee
make a contribution to Al-Anon from the
financial profits of the convention?

Answer: In accordance with the self-support
Traditions of both Fellowships and to abide by
the concept of "cooperation but not affili-
ation," it is suggested that A.A. should not
make gifts or contributions to Al-Anon. By the
same token, A.A. should not accept contributions
from Al-Anon.

If separate registrations have been kept for
both A.A. and Al-Anon members, however, income
may be easily assigned.

Question: How may I get in touch with Al-Anon?

Answer: Check your phone book for local
intergroup office, or write: Al-Anon/Alateen
Family Group, Inc., 1600 Corporate Landing
Parkway, Virginia Beach, VA 23454-5617.
Tel: 800/356/9996;
www.al-anon.alateen.org.

A.A.'s Debt of Gratitude to Al-Anon

The following resolution of gratitude to the
Fellowship of the Al-Anon Family Groups was
unanimously approved by the 1969 General Service
Conference of Alcoholics Anonymous.

The delegates of this, the 19th General Service
Conference of Alcoholics Anonymous, meeting in
official session in New York City, this 25th
day of April, 1969, do hereby declare:

WHEREAS, it is the desire of this Conference
to confirm the relationship between Alcoholics
Anonymous and the Al-Anon Family Groups, and
WHEREAS, it is the further desire of this
Conference to acknowledge A.A.'s debt of
gratitude to the Al-Anon Family Groups,
therefore,
BE IT RESOLVED, that Alcoholics Anonymous
recognizes the special relationship which it
enjoys with the Al-Anon Family Groups, a
separate but similar fellowship. And be it
further resolved that Alcoholics Anonymous
wishes to recognize, and hereby does recognize,
the great contribution which the Al-Anon Family
Groups have made and are making in assisting
the families of alcoholics everywhere.

God bless
Dave J.
>
> Mates:
>
> I have been trying to locate in A.A. literature
> the part where "cooperation with Al-Anon and
> Alateen" is encouraged.
>
> We are having a problem with Tradition 6 in that
> some people want to put include ACA (Adult
> Children of Alcoholics) in meetings and meeting
> schedules.
>
> I understand that Tradition 6 should be
> sufficient to cover this matter, but the
> exact wording of the "cooperation with other
> activities" statement would help.
>
> Thanks for your assistance.
>
> Pat Jehn, RN,C
> Legal Nurse Consultant
> MEDICAL-LEGAL CONSULTING, LLC
> 399 S. 12th St.
> DeFuniak Springs, Fl 32435
>
> PatJehn@Embarqmail.Com <mailto:PatJehn%40Embarqmail.Com>
> (PatJehn at Embarqmail.Com)
>
> 850-951-9899
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 5046. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Cooperation with Al-Anon and
Alateen statement
From: James Bliss . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/31/2008 8:08:00 PM

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It does not contain the phrase which you quote,
but there is a AA Guideline - 'Relationship
Between A.A. and Al-Anon' which addresses. It
states 'And yet the Twelve Traditions, the
General Service Boards, and the General Service
Conferences of both Fellowships suggest that
each functions more effectively if it remains
“separate,” cooperating but not affiliating
with the other.'

This guideline can be located at:
http://www.aa.org/en_pdfs/mg-08_relationshipbet.pdf

Jim

- - - -

Pat Jehn, RN C, LNC wrote:
> Mates:
>
> I have been trying to locate in A.A. literature
> the part where "cooperation with Al-Anon and
> Alateen" is encouraged.
>
> We are having a problem with Tradition 6 in that
> some people want to put include ACA (Adult
> Children of Alcoholics) in meetings and meeting
> schedules.

- - - -

From: Jon Markle <serenitylodge@bellsouth.net>
(serenitylodge at bellsouth.net)

Is a "meeting" schedule considered to be something published by AA?
If not, the traditions do not apply to it.

For example, almost every website for the local intergroup offices
list AA meetings and LINKS to other 12-step Fellowships webpages for
their meeting lists.

Many areas, especially those smaller areas, where daily meetings are
scarce, publish their lists which include all known 12-step fellowship
meetings.

As I understand it . . . Schedules are the act of a group of AA's, who
do not represent AA as such, IMO. If, for example AA, Al-anon and NA
or any other 12-step fellowship wish to combine their efforts to
publish a general schedule, it would seem prudent to do so, and it
would be a simple matter (less expensive, but more difficult to
coordinate), to identify each meeting under whatever 12-step
Fellowship it falls.

I see no reason (legally or otherwise) not to cooperate in this
matter, except perhaps an ego-territorial problem that some people
seem to have (resentment). After all, every one of the 12th steps is
about carrying the message of recovery. It's not about making sure we
keep separate from others or withholding information that could be and
generally is, very helpful.

Why oh why must we continue to act this way, like we (AA) have all the
answers and can't stand to share important information, make it easily
accessible to others, that could possibly save their lives?

I believe that it's important to follow the traditions, but so often
we push them far beyond the limits of their intention, into the
bizarre and useless.

Both AA and Al-anon have "blurbs" in their literature about "spirit of
cooperation" -- as they do about treatment centers and hospitals. I
think most of the 12-step fellowships remind us of this important
spiritual attitude.

Hugs for the trudge.

Jon (Raleigh)
9/9/82

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++++Message 5047. . . . . . . . . . . . Meeting formats
From: Bent Christensen . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/1/2008 4:21:00 AM

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Hi group

Yesterday I was at a convent here in Denmark
and the subject meeting formats came up.

As I understand it the first meetings were
speaker meetings, is that correct? Do you have
any idea when and how the different meeting
formats developed?

Kind regards from sunny Denmark

Bent

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++++Message 5048. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Cooperation with Al-Anon and
Alateen statement
From: John Hettish . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/1/2008 11:12:00 PM

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Hello folks,

I have a copy of the Al-anon version of the
cooperation statement if anyone would like to
see it. I'm sure Al-anon's World Service
Office would also make it available if asked.

John Hettish
jhettish@united.net
(jhettish at united.net)

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++++Message 5049. . . . . . . . . . . . Early four step AA program ???
From: rajiv.behappy . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/27/2008 8:52:00 AM

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After reading Hank Parkhurst's proposed outline
for the Big book, it seems clear to me that the
original program had four steps in 1938 and not
the 6 Steps that Bill W wrote about as the
original AA's word-of-mouth steps in the July
1953 Grapevine article (and in AA Comes of Age).

Do any of you know what the original four steps
were?

Much Love

Rajiv Bhole

- - - -

Message #2567: HANK P.'s FOUR STEP RENDITION
From: <mertonmm3@yahoo.com>
(mertonmm3 at yahoo.com)

"In my mind religious experience - religion -
etc. should not be brought in. We are actually
irreligious - but we are trying to be helpful
- we have learned to be quiet - to be more
truthful - to be more honest - to try to be
more unselfish - to make other fellows troubles
- our troubles - and by following four steps
most of us have a religious experience. The
fellowship - the unselfishness appeals to us."

- - - -

From the moderator, Glenn C.:

Rajiv, you needed to keep on reading in that
document,where Hank went on to say further
along:

"I am fearfully afraid that we are emphasizing
religious experience when actually that is
something that follows as a result of 1 - 2 -
3 - 4.

"In my mind the question is not particularly
the strength of the experience as much as the
improvement over what we were. I would ask a
man to compare himself as follows after say
a month –

"#1 - As compared to 2 months ago do you have
more of a feeling that there is a power greater
than you [?]

"#2 - Have you cleaned out more completely
with a human being than ever before?

"#3 - Have you less bad things behind you
than ever before [?]

"#4 - Have you been more honest with youself
and your fellow man - Have you been more
honest with yourself and your fellow man -
Have you been more thoughtful of people with
whom you are associated - Has your life been
cleaner both by thought & action - Have you
looked at others less critically and yourself
more critically this last 30 days. You will
never be perfect but the question is have you
been more perfect?"

- - - -

These were not "four steps" that you took, in
the same sense as the twelve steps of the
twelve step program in the Big Book.

- - - -

There is also a mention of "four steps" in
Message #2788 from <tcumming@nc.rr.com>
(tcumming at nc.rr.com), where it says:

From the end of a 1st edition of the Big Book
story titled THE CAR SMASHER, page 369:

"There are, it seems to me, four steps to be
taken by one who is a victim of alcoholism.
First: Have a real desire to quit.
Second: Admit you can't. (This is hardest.)
Third: Ask for His ever present help.
Fourth: Accept and acknowledge this help."

[That mans story is also on pg 193 of 2nd &
3rd ed, but it was rewritten and renamed to
He Had to Be Shown, and does not have the 4
Steps.]

- - - -

That was intended for people at the very
beginning, when they first came into
Alcoholics Anonymous. There were other
things that people had to do after that
(confession, restitution, regular prayer
and quiet time, and so on) which were
recognized as necessities in AA from the
beginning (and went back to Oxford Group
practice).

So it seems to me that it would be very
misleading to say that "the original program
had four steps in 1938."

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana, U.S.)

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++++Message 5050. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Anonymity statement and
Al-Anon''s table card
From: Art Boudreault . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/4/2008 9:28:00 PM

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Dear AA History Lovers,

Posted by: "
Date: Thu May 29, 2008 12:53 pm ((PDT))

Not too long ago I was at a meeting that had
the statement displayed:

"Whom you see here, what you hear here, when
you leave here, let it stay here. Anonymity
is the spiritual foundation of our program."

At the bottom it said Al-Anon. Is this where
this saying came from and is this what Al-Anon
calls their anonymity statement?

Alan S., New Mexico

- - - -

I have continued to ask for dates and sources.
I asked 300 former and current Al-Anon
delegates and the Al-Anon World Service Office
(WSO) for the history of the table card.

The saying appears to have originated in Al-
Anon in Britain and was brought to the
attention of the US WSO in 1973. The WSO
found no references to the Manhattan Project
in their archives for any reason. As you may
know, the entire archive of Al-Anon has been
placed into a huge database from which they
may find anything in print that originated or
passed through their office. It is interesting
how quickly the word "who" was changed to
"whom".

Below my signature is a copy of the statement
I received from the WSO and two long timers.

Sincerely,

Art Boudreault

- - - -

From Al-Anon World Service Archives:

According to existing research, the table card
appears to have originated at Al-Anon meetings
in Britain, and was then produced by the WSO
in 1973. In the August 1973 issue of The
Forum, on page 4, in an article titled, “A
Delegate Re-Lives World Service Conference,”
Margaret H., Delegate at the 1973 World Service
Conference from South Carolina, wrote:

“The tent-fold card propped up during Al-Anon
meetings in Britain, bearing the words: “Who
you see here, what you hear here, let it stay
here.” So that all groups may profit from
the British Al-Anon reminder the WSO has
also produced these to sell for the 10¢ each,
or $1.00 a dozen; lest our members be tempted
to call our attention to the word “Who” as
ungrammatical, we hasten to explain in advance
that this was done on purpose to make it
colloquial and familiar.”

The word “who“ was replaced by “whom” sometime
between the 1978 printing and the 1981 printing,
and remains this way today.

We found no mention of the Manhattan Project
in the Al-Anon Archives. If you find out
anything more, I’d be interested to know.

From Irma ( member of Al-Anon since 1964): When
this placard first came out it said: "Who you
see here......." As I recall Blanche, a school
teacher and past delegate, wrote to the WSO
to say this is bad language. She told them it
should read "Whom you see here.." So it was
changed.

We talked about this at my homegroup one
night...why it was changed. While we were
discussing it, a small voice said: "Whom
cares?'

From Suzie C "My late husband worked for the
Atomic Energy Commission, while the A-bomb was
in its conception and early testing stages in
several very secure locations. Though he did
not join AA until later in his life (+/-10
years after I joined Al-Anon). I know that,
surreptitiously at first, then openly after
he joined AA, he read every piece of my
(propaganda!) Al-Anon literature. Later he
embraced the AA program himself. I am pretty
sure he would have told me if he recognized
the anonymity statement from any of his
connections with the AEC, which went on
throughout his life. sc28

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++++Message 5051. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Anonymity statement
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/6/2008 3:19:00 PM

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Did Al-Anon go nuclear?

Well, the Al-Anon anonymity statement (as
used also by many AA groups, see for example
http://hindsfoot.org/tools.html ) reads:
"Whom you see here, what you hear here, when
you leave here, let it stay here. Anonymity
is the spiritual foundation of our program."

The Manhattan Project sign (posted at more
than one of the secret World War II sites
involved in the building and dropping of the
first nuclear bombs) was identical except that
it had "what" instead of "whom," and three
monkeys (one with his hands over his eyes,
one with his hands over his ears, and one
with his hands over his mouth).

Even if the Al-Anon organization in the U.S.
says that they got it from the Al-Anon
organisation in Britain, the overall Manhattan
Project involved the U.S., Britain, and Canada
all three. British scientists (and research
facilities) were very much part of the team
that built the bomb. So saying that the
statement came originally from Britain does
not mean that it could not have had any link
to the Manhattan Project.

See the photo, for example, at the bottom of
the web page given below, where a prominent
road sign along an English highway says:

"Brentwood
Kelvedon Hatch A 128
Industrial Estates
Secret Nuclear Bunker"

This is from
http://www.patheticphotos.com/pathetic-things.htm
http://www.patheticphotos.com/Pathetic-Things/secret-nuclear-bunker.htm

We've already got the camel as an AA symbol and
the mythical bird called the phoenix (rising in
flight from the flames of rebirth). But three
monkeys as AA symbol? Hmmm. I have been told
that a long automobile ride with Frank N.,
Floyd P., Big Al M., and me all in the same
vehicle reminded some people of a trip with
the Three Stooges.

But anyway, here are some references, the first
one from the excellent website maintained by
the Tennessee State AA Archives. They say that
the Three Monkeys sign was displayed at Oak
Ridge, Tennessee, a major Manhattan Project
site, and show us an actual picture of what it
looked like:

http://area64tnarchives.org/whatyouseehere.html

<<What You See Here, What You Do Here, What
You Hear Here, When You Leave Here, Let It Stay
Here>>

http://narademo.umiacs.umd.edu/cgi-bin/isadg/viewseries.pl?seriesid=4110

<<Included, as well, are numerous close-ups of
billboard messages promoting loyalty and
security themes (e.g., in Notebook 59, bill-
board picture of three monkeys, announcing "What
You See Here, What You Do Here, What You Hear
Here,When You Leave Here, Let It Stay Here!").>>

http://www.wendoverairbase.com/HWA%20Sixty%20Years%20-%20LVRJ.doc

<<Barbed wire barred the entrance to hangars
and shops. Warning signs went up all along the
perimeter. The largest one, near the exit, read:
"WHAT YOU HEAR HERE, WHAT YOU SEE HERE, WHEN
YOU LEAVE HERE, LET IT STAY HERE.">>

http://www.mphpa.org/classic/VET_STORIES/MO/CG/Pages/Metro-P.htm

<<When we returned the ramp was fenced in and
we had to wear special badges to be admitted.
More personnel were arriving daily, forming
support units, to form the 509th Composite
Group. Col. Tibbets told us we were going to
"hasten the war's end". Our airplanes began
arriving; we knew then that our mission was
special, by the configuration of the planes
(no gun turrets, etc.) and other circumstantial
manifestations. We radar types had been
subjected to loyalty investigations before
we were eligible for radar training, so the
signs, "What you see here, what you hear here,
when you leave here, let it stay here!" wasn't
anything new.>>

http://books.google.com/books?id=6-jWpCYBTR0C&pg=PA269&lpg=PA269&dq=%22when+
you+\

leave+here+let+it+stay+here22+Manhattan+Project&source=web&ots=W-XQWIytdv&si
g=zF\

nqFv2joIPddBGcwRVcTXJpvqI&hl=en [16]

<<... WHEN YOU LEAVE HERE LET IT STAY HERE

"That's the original," Miss Marx explained to
me, as if it were a Picasso.

"The original from -- "

"From the Manhattan Project. It used to hang
over the gates at Los Alamos. It's sort of
the unofficial motto of the Skytale Club.
It's part of why our members can feel
relaxed here.">>

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++++Message 5052. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Anonymity statement and the Oak
Ridge nuclear facility
From: Steven Leeds . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/6/2008 3:37:00 PM

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Here's a link to the source of the saying, on
the Tennessee state AA archives site:

http://area64tnarchives.org/whatyouseehere.html

It originated from the Oak Ridge Facility, from
signs used during the Second World War. Almost
every history page on the internet for the Oak
Ridge facility makes mention of the monkeys and
the saying.

Blessings,
Steven L.

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++++Message 5053. . . . . . . . . . . . Text of the Gabriel Heatter
broadcast
From: diane unger . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/3/2008 8:30:00 AM

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Gabriel Heatter, the nationally recognized
radio broadcaster, provided the forum for the
first national exposure received by Alcoholics
Anonymous, April 25, 1939. Heatter's nightly
"We The People" radio broadcast was a tremend-
ously popular program listened to by millions
of people nationwide. Heatter was known for
his trademark line, "Ah, there's good news
tonight!" Little did he know how good that news
was to become to suffering alcoholics worldwide.

Morgan R., the AA member who spoke on the
program, was a former ad man. The broadcast
was expected to launch sales of the newly
published book, Alcoholics Anonymous. The
story of Morgan's three day "captivity" to
prevent him from drinking before the broadcast,
and the resulting two Big Book sales are
described in Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of
Age on pages 174-175.

"WE THE PEOPLE"

HEATTER:

The man beside me now has had one of the most
gripping and dramatic experiences I've ever
heard. I'm not going to tell you his name.
And when you hear what he has to say I think
you'll understand why. But after checking the
facts the Listeners Committee of "We The
People" decided to grant him time because
they feel that if one person is helped by
hearing his story, then WE THE PEOPLE will
have done a real service. Alright, sir.

ANONYMOUS GUEST:

Six months ago I got out of an insane asylum.
I'd been sent there because I was drinking
myself to death. But the doctors said they
could do nothing for me. And only four years
ago I was making 20,000 dollars a year. I was
married to a swell girl and had a young son.
But I worked hard and like lots of my friends -
I used to drink to relax. Only they knew when
to stop. I didn't. And pretty soon - I drank
myself out of my job. I promised my wife I'd
straighten out. But I couldn't. Finally she
took the baby and left me.

The next year was like a nightmare. I was
penniless. I went out on the streets -
panhandled money for liquor. Every time I
sobered up - I swore not to touch another drop.
But if I went a few hours without a drink -
I'd begin to cry like a baby, and tremble
all over. One day after I left the asylum I
met a friend of mine. He took me to the home
of one of his friends. A bunch of men were
sitting around, smoking cigars, telling jokes
- having a great time. But I noticed they
weren't drinking. When Tom told me they'd all
been in the same boat as I was - I couldn't
believe him. But he said, "See that fellow?
He's a doctor. Drank himself out of his
practice. Then he straightened out. Now he's
head of a big hospital." Another big strapping
fellow was a grocery clerk. Another the vice
president of a big corporation. They got
together five years ago. Called themselves
Alcoholics Anonymous. And they'd worked out
a method of recovery. One of their most
important secrets was - helping the other
fellow. Once they began to follow it the
method proved successful and helped others get
on their feet - they found they could stay
away from liquor.

Gradually - those men helped me back to life.
I stopped drinking. Found courage to face life
once again. Today I've got a job - and I'm
going to climb back to success. Recently we
wrote a book called "Alcoholics Anonymous".
It tells precisely how we all came back from
a living death. Working on that book made me
realize how much other people had suffered -
how they'd gone through the same thing I did.
That's why I wanted to come on this program.
I wanted to tell people who are going through
that torment - if they sincerely want to,
they can come back. Take their place in
society once again!

(APPLAUSE)
(MUSIC)

This broadcast was made at a time when A.A. and
the Big Book effort was $10,000 in debt, with
only $500 left in the bank...

Morgan Ryan, the good-looking Irishman who had
taken the book to the Catholic Committee on
Publication, had been a good ad man. He said
that he knew Gabriel Heatter. "Gabriel is
putting on these 3 minute heart-to-heart
programs on the radio. I'll get an interview
with him and maybe he'll interview me on the
radio about all this."

And the REST OF THE STORY is history in "AA
History And How The Big Book Was Put Together"
- A Talk By Bill Wilson - Fort Worth, Texas -
1954

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++++Message 5054. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Early four step AA program ???
From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/4/2008 7:53:00 AM

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<most of message snipped>
>
> There is also a mention of "four steps" in
> Message #2788 from <tcumming@...>
> (tcumming at nc.rr.com), where it says:
>
> From the end of a 1st edition of the Big Book
> story titled THE CAR SMASHER, page 369:
>
> "There are, it seems to me, four steps to be
> taken by one who is a victim of alcoholism.
> First: Have a real desire to quit.
> Second: Admit you can't. (This is hardest.)
> Third: Ask for His ever present help.
> Fourth: Accept and acknowledge this help."
>
> [That mans story is also on pg 193 of 2nd &
> 3rd ed, but it was rewritten and renamed to
> He Had to Be Shown, and does not have the 4
> Steps.]
>
These are quite close to the 5 C's of the
Oxford Group, so it would make sense that they
might have been used by the "alcohol squad."
Keep in mind that the 5 C's were steps
suggested for the life-changer to follow, the
person who is trying to lead someone else to
become a "changed" person. "Changed" roughly
correlates with AA's "sobriety," and except
for the fact that the alcoholic version was
directed to the alcoholic himself, the
correlation is pretty good. Here they are.
I'll stick with the male pronoun, it's easier
and closer to the original:

The first C was "Confidence," developing the
person's trust in the life-changer. This of
course would not apply if the steps were
expressed as something done directly by the
person who needed to change.

The second was "Confession," not to be confused
with the more elaborate confession of a
practicing grouper. In the context of the
5 C's, confession meant getting the person to
admit that there was something he felt bad
about. In practice, this could be something
major but often was something minor--anything
would do.

The third, "Conviction" (of sin), meant
bringing the person to the realization that
what he felt bad about was truly in the nature
of sin, not just a bad habit but a spiritual
problem.

The fourth, "Conversion," was the actual
surrender and acceptance of God's help.

The fifth C, "Continuance." involved guidance,
prayer, group and individual confession, etc.
as practiced by the OG.

The steps listed by the author of The Car
Smasher follow the pattern of the five C's,
without the "Confidence" step: 1) Admission
of a problem, 2) Acceptance that it is not
under one's control, 3) Surrender, 4) Followup.

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++++Message 5055. . . . . . . . . . . . Which 1st ed. Big Book stories were
ghostwritten?
From: Edie Stanger . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/8/2008 12:34:00 PM

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I just read in the justloveaudio.com
transcription:

"Meanwhile, we set drunks up to write their
stories or we had newspaper people to write
the stories for them to go in the back of
the book."

Does anyone know which stories were ghost-
written? Has there been a previous thread
on the subject?

Edie S.

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++++Message 5056. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Anonymity statement
From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/7/2008 3:51:00 AM

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The words "Who you see here, what you hear
here, when you leave here, let it stay here"
are printed on a yellow card issued by the UK
General Service office in York. The card
appears on tables at AA grops all over the
UK, and when winding up meetings secretaries
often say, "Please remember the Yellow Card
(reciting the words). Let's make this a safe
place to share."

Travers C., Bristol AA old-timer, thought the
message was somewhat sanctimonious. I recall
him saying, "If we mean, 'Don't gossip,' why
not say so."

- - - -

From: Jon Markle <serenitylodge@bellsouth.net>
(serenitylodge at bellsouth.net)

It's not a far stretch . . . using monkeys . . .
Alcohol made monkeys out of most of us. And
when we got sober, we "got the monkey off our
backs" . . .

- - - -

From: "Bob McK." <bobnotgod2@att.net>
(bobnotgod2 at att.net)

Interestingly, the three monkeys ("hear no
evil, see no evil, speak no evil") date back
to Japan in the 1600s and possibly before.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_wise_monkeys

[The three monkeys are Mizaru, covering his
eyes, who sees no evil; Kikazaru, covering
his ears, who hears no evil; and Iwazaru,
covering his mouth, who speaks no evil.]

- - - -

From: charles Knapp <cdknapp@pacbell.net>
(cdknapp at pacbell.net)

Hello again,

Yes here is another site that mentions the
slogan. It is about half way in the article.

http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2005/Aug-06-Sat-2005/news/26902506.ht
ml

The History Channel did a special on Oak Ridge
and I saved a video clip from the show about
this slogan. I will see if I can find it in
one of my computers and post it online. If I
do I will post a link in History Lovers.

Charles from California

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++++Message 5057. . . . . . . . . . . . fabric of AA Big Books
From: shakey1aa . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/12/2008 10:38:00 PM

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Does any one know the composition or type of
fabrics used in the 4 editions of the Big Book?

Shakey Mike Gwirtz
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA

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++++Message 5058. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill W. in Towns Hospital 3 or 4
times?
From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/12/2008 11:40:00 AM

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It seems as though there is some confusion
based on my study of the literature and other
biographies of Bill.

Can someone answer definitively how many times
and when was Bill hospitalized at Towns?

Was it three times or four times?

Thanks

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++++Message 5059. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Anonymity statement
From: PR_Magoo . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/10/2008 12:07:00 PM

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I found an Oak Ridge web site that had a
picture of an old billboard sign from the
early 1940's that gave the early atomic
research facility version of what later
became the AA and Al-Anon slogan, with a
picture of the three monkeys on it:

What you see here,
What you do here,
What you hear here,
When you leave here,
Let it stay here.

http://oakridgevisitor.com/history/SecretTown-security.html

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++++Message 5060. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill Wilson''s morning
prayer---Stepping Stones
From: pauguspass . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/11/2008 1:35:00 PM

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Had a wonderful visit at Stepping Stones last
Friday and made part of the picnic on Saturday.
It's a tremendously moving place to visit.

There was a wonderful prayer typed out and
lying on the bed in the upstairs bedroom. It
was said to be a prayer Bill used in the
mornings. I didn't transcribe it because I
figured I could find it. But either I'm not
looking at the right things, or it's not
readily available.

Does anyone have this prayer or can you point
to where it may be? And what source suggests
it was his morning prayer?

Thanks.

George Cleveland

- - - -

From the moderator (Glenn C., South Bend):

The following prayer appears at
http://hindsfoot.org/funeral1.html

Was this the one you were looking for? It
comes from Pass It On, page 265.

BILL & LOIS'S PRAYER

Oh Lord, we thank Thee that Thou art,
that we are from everlasting to everlasting.

Blessed be Thy holy name and all Thy benefactions
to us of light, of love, and of service.
May we find and do Thy will
in good strength, in good cheer today.

May Thy ever-present grace be discovered
by family and friends
-- those here and those beyond --
by our Societies throughout the world,
by men and women everywhere,
and among those who must lead
in these troubled times.

Oh Lord, we know Thee to be all wonder,
all beauty, all glory, all power, all love.
Indeed, Thou art everlasting love.

Accordingly, Thou has fashioned for us
a destiny passing through Thy many mansions,
ever in more discovery of Thee
and in no separation between ourselves.

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++++Message 5061. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Bill W. in Towns Hospital 3 or 4
times?
From: Chris Budnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/13/2008 11:57:00 PM

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I had gone back and forth on this issue also.

Pass It On indicates four admissions:

p. 100 "In the autumn of 1933, when Bill found
himself in Towns Hospital for the first time."

p. 106 "Bill wound up in Towns for a second
time."

p. 108 "By midsummer 1934, he was back in
Towns."

p. 119 - 120 These pages describe Bill's
return to Towns Hospital on December 11, 1934.

I don't have Robert Thomsen's book in front
of me, but I have a notation to myself to see
page 174.

I think what finally swayed me is listening
to Bill's talk on the day that Dr. Bob died
(11/16/1950). 4 minutes and 45 seconds into
the recording Bill states "This was my fourth
visit, third time this year." However, I
think he misspeaks here because he is talking
his admission where Dr. Silkworth suggested to
Lois that he commit Bill to the Rockland State
Hospital. But the fact that he says "fourth
visit" leads me to believe that his how many
admissions he had.

Also see previous posts: #3330 and #4224

I'm sure other people have studied this and
could share input as well.

Chris

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++++Message 5062. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Bill Wilson''s morning
prayer---Stepping Stones
From: Russ Stewart . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/13/2008 11:36:00 PM

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"Pass It On" pages 264 & 265
<<During the days of the Oxford Group meetings,
Bill and Lois Wilson had started the practice
of holding a "quiet time" each morning ....
Lois described these quiet times: "They'd
last 15 minutes or so. We were in bed and
we'd get up and I'd make coffee and we'd have
coffee in bed, and then we'd say a prayer
together .... This is the prayer composed by
Bill and recited by the Wilson's at these
times:

"Oh Lord, we thank Thee that Thou art, that
we are from everlasting to everlasting.
Blessed be Thy holy name and all Thy bene-
factions to us of light, and of service.
May we find and do Thy will in good strength,
in good cheer today. May Thy ever-present
grace be discovered by family and friends --
those here and those beyond -- by our
Societies throughout the world, by men and
women everywhere, and among those who must
lead in these troubled times. Oh Lord, we
know Thee to be all wonder, all beauty, all
glory, all power, all love. Indeed, Thou
are everlasting love. Accordingly, Thou has
fashioned for us a destiny passing through
Thy many mansions, ever in more discovery of
Thee and in no separation between ourselves.">>

"Pass It On," page 274 note 2:
<<Lois, who remained deeply in love with Bill
for her entire adult life, said, years after
his death: "That business about no separation
between ourselves is something that I cherish.">>

- - - -

Original message no. 5060 was from
George Cleveland <pauguspass@yahoo.com>
(pauguspass at yahoo.com)

Had a wonderful visit at Stepping Stones last
Friday .... There was a wonderful prayer typed
out and lying on the bed in the upstairs
bedroom. It was said to be a prayer Bill used
in the mornings .... what source suggests
it was his morning prayer?

- - - -

ANY ECHOES HERE OF SWEDENBORGIAN LITURGY?

From: Baileygc23@aol.com
(Baileygc23 at aol.com)

Has this prayer anything to do with
Swedenborgianism?

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++++Message 5063. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill Wilson''s morning
prayer---Stepping Stones
From: george cleveland . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/15/2008 12:29:00 PM

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While this is a fabulous prayer, it's not as
I recall. What stood out about the prayer I
saw at Stepping Stones was the term "Father of
Lights". Which is not to say that a word or
two may have changed. The tone is very similar.

I've written to Stepping Stones and asked them
if there is a copy.

THANK YOU, as always.

George

- - - -

Message #5060

The prayer given in Pass It On, page 265:

BILL & LOIS'S PRAYER

Oh Lord, we thank Thee that Thou art,
that we are from everlasting to everlasting.

Blessed be Thy holy name and all Thy benefactions
to us of light, of love, and of service.
May we find and do Thy will
in good strength, in good cheer today.

May Thy ever-present grace be discovered
by family and friends
-- those here and those beyond --
by our Societies throughout the world,
by men and women everywhere,
and among those who must lead
in these troubled times.

Oh Lord, we know Thee to be all wonder,
all beauty, all glory, all power, all love.
Indeed, Thou art everlasting love.

Accordingly, Thou has fashioned for us
a destiny passing through Thy many mansions,
ever in more discovery of Thee
and in no separation between ourselves.

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++++Message 5064. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Anonymity statement
From: Hugh M . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/14/2008 2:28:00 AM

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A few months ago, the local R.C.M.P. entered
the Hells Angels clubhouse in Nanaimo, British
Columbia with a search warrant. In a report,
the police told of finding a sign bearing that
slogan in one of the rooms. It is obvious that
we have no corner on the concept.

Unless some Al-Anon group might have been
meeting in the biker facility :-)

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++++Message 5065. . . . . . . . . . . . Sources that help put the Big Book
together
From: juan.aa98 . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/11/2008 7:21:00 PM

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Allen, James - As A Man Thinketh

Baylor, Courtenay - Remaking a Man

Begbie, Harold - Twice-Born Men, 1909

Begbie, Harold - Souls in Action, 1911

Begbie, Harold - The Ordinary Man, 1915

Bible:
The Sermon on the Mount
The Lord's Prayer
The Book of James
The 13th Chapter of First Corinthians

Browne, Lewis - This Believing World

Browne, Lewis - The Conversion Experience

Chambers, O. - My Utmost For His Highest

Clark, Glenn - Will Lift Up Mine Eyes

Drummond, Henry - The Greatest Thing in the World

Fox, Emmet - The Sermon on the Mount

Freud, Sigmund - A General Introduction to Psychoanalysis

James, William - The Varieties of Religious Experience

Kitchen, V.C. - I Was a Pagan

Peabody, R.R. - The Common Sense of Drinking

Russell, A.J. - For Sinners Only

Troward, Thomas - The Edinburgh Lectures on Mental Science

The Upper Room - a Methodist periodical

Walter, H.A. - Soul Surgery

This is the list that was provided for me
from A.A. Archives. Anyone know of more
books? Where else can I look?

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++++Message 5066. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Bill W. in Towns Hospital 3 or 4
times?
From: Arthur Sheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/16/2008 11:33:00 AM

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Good research Chris

From what I've gleaned from past research and
recorded in a timeline history document, Bill W
had 4 admissions to Towns Hospital. Info and
source references are below:

AACOA - AA Comes of Age, AAWS
BW-40 - Bill W My First 40 Years, autobiography
BW-FH - Bill W by Francis Hartigan
BW-RT - Bill W by Robert Thomsen
GB - Getting Better Inside AA by Nan Robertson
LOH - Language of the Heart, AA Grapevine
LR - Lois Remembers, by Lois Wilson
NG - Not God, by Ernest Kurtz
NW - New Wine, by Mel B
PIO - Pass It On, AAWS
RAA - The Roots of AA, by Bill Pittman

1933 Autumn, Bill W was quite literally
drinking himself to death. In desperation,
his wife Lois, now earning $22.50 a week at
Macy's ($350 today) turned to her brother-
in-law Dr Leonard V Strong, who arranged and
paid for, Bill W's first admission to Towns
Hospital. Bill was subjected to the "belladonna
cure." The regimen primarily involved "purging
and puking" aided by, among other things,
castor oil. Belladonna, a hallucinogen, was
used to ease the symptoms of alcohol withdrawal.
Dr Strong was married to Bill's sister Dorothy.
(PIO 98-101, LR 85, BW-40 104, NG 14-15, 310,
BW-FH 50, BW-RT 174)

1934 July (?), Bill W's second admission to
Towns Hospital (again paid by Dr Leonard V
Strong). Bill met Dr Silkworth for the first
time. Silkworth explained the obsession and
allergy of alcoholism but Bill started drinking
again almost immediately upon discharge. Bill
was unemployable, $50,000 in debt ($757,000
today) suicidal and drinking around the clock.
(AACOA 52, PIO 106-108, BW-40 114-117, NG 15,
310, BW-FH 50-55)

1934 September 17, Bill W's third admission
to Towns Hospital (again paid by Dr Leonard V.
Strong). Dr Silkworth pronounced Bill as
hopeless and informed Lois that Bill would
likely have to be committed. Bill left the
hospital a deeply frightened man and sheer
terror kept him sober. He found a little work
on Wall St, which began to restore his badly
shattered confidence. (PIO 106-109, LR 87,
AACOA vii, 56, BW-RT 176-177, NG 15, 310,
BW-FH 4-5, 54-55)

1934 December 11, Bill W (age 39) decided to
go back to Towns Hospital and had his last
drink (four bottles of beer purchased on the
way). He got financial help from his mother,
Emily, for the hospital bill. (AACOA 61-62,
LOH 197, RAA 152, NG 19, 311, NW 23, PIO
119-120, GB 31).

Cheers
Arthur

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++++Message 5067. . . . . . . . . . . . The Talk Bill Gave the Night Dr Bob
Died 11/16/1950
From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/16/2008 9:24:00 AM

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The only recording I know of bearing this
title (or a variant of it) is a reenactment
created by Bill McN, who will btw be present
at the History & Archives Gathering in Lebanon
Pennsylvania on June 21, speaking on
"Dramatizing AA History" -- and as Chris will
be there, and if this is the talk he's referring
to, he'll be able to check Bill's sources
with him.

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++++Message 5068. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Early four step AA program ???
From: terry walton . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/17/2008 8:36:00 AM

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From "terry walton" <twalton@3gcinc.com>
(twalton at 3gcinc.com)

The Four steps to be taken?

> From the end of a 1st edition of the Big Book
> story titled THE CAR SMASHER, page 369:
>
> "There are, it seems to me, four steps to be
> taken by one who is a victim of alcoholism.
> First: Have a real desire to quit.
> Second: Admit you can't. (This is hardest.)
> Third: Ask for His ever present help.
> Fourth: Accept and acknowledge this help."
>
> [That man's story is also on pg 193 of 2nd &
> 3rd ed, but it was rewritten and renamed to
> He Had to Be Shown, and does not have the 4
> Steps.]

I believe we have the precursor to these four
items in the story of AA Number 3 (2nd, 3rd,
and 4th edits.).

Bill W. and Dr. Bob ask Bill D. the same four
questions. I added the numbers for clarity's
sake. In Bill D's story they were not
referred to as "steps," simply questions.
To me the word "steps" seems to imply a bigger
or larger than life search as in searching
for the holy grail of "who started the term
"steps?"

I would see their "steps" as a list of actions
which they performed: "the next action is ..."
"we took action" etc. "the directions of the
actions are ..."

[1] They said to me, "Do you want to quit
drinking?

[2] The next thing they wanted to know was
if I thought I could quit of my own accord,
without any help, if I could just walk out
of the hospital and never take another drink.

[3] The next question, they wanted to know
was if I believed in a Higher Power.

[4] The next thing they wanted to know was
would I be willing to go to this Higher Power
and ask for help, calmly and without any
reservations.

- - - -

From: <rajiv.BeHappy@gmail.com>
(rajiv.BeHappy at gmail.com)

The book "What is the Oxford Group"
http://www.silkworth.net/aahistory/what-is-the-oxford-group.pdf
says the order is Sharing, Surrender,
Restitution and Guidance. This is in accordance
with the 5Cs in the book Soul Surgery, since
Confidence and Confession are the Sharing step.

Conviction is Surrender, where after the
self-realization that comes from the sharing,
one decides to surrender one's sins, which
ultimately is one's self-centeredness
(according to the book).

This view of Surrender coming AFTER the Sharing
Step seems to have been followed in the program
at St. Thomas Hospital in Akron, Ohio. In a
paper published by Sr. Ignatia in 1951 about
their 5-Day hospital program, she writes that
Day 3 was the day of inventory, where the alky
admits to God, himself, & another all his
problems. After that she writes: "With self
knowledge, he is asked to admit the truth:
'I am an alcoholic.'" (See the article by Mary
C Darrah in Employee Assistance Quarterly,
Vol 1, No.1 Fall 1985)

Is this a claim that the 1st Step (Surrender)
COMES AFTER the 5th Step (Sharing) instead of
PRECEDING it?

Thanks for your help.

Much Love

Rajiv

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++++Message 5069. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill Wilson''s morning
prayer---Stepping Stones
From: John Lee . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/17/2008 1:33:00 PM

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"Father of Light" is found on page 14 of
"Bill's Story," Chapter 1 of Big Book. It's
a misquote from the Epistle of St. James 1:17,
which refers to the "Father of Lights."

The reference to "many mansions" likely came
from John 14:2, "in my Father's house are
many mansions."

Bill used the "many mansions" language often.

john lee
pittsburgh

- - - -

From: george cleveland <pauguspass@yahoo.com>
(pauguspass at yahoo.com)

While this is a fabulous prayer, it's not as
I recall. What stood out about the prayer I
saw at Stepping Stones was the term "Father of
Lights".

- - - -

Message #5060

The prayer given in Pass It On, page 265:

BILL AND LOIS'S PRAYER

Oh Lord, we thank Thee that Thou art,
that we are from everlasting to everlasting.

Blessed be Thy holy name and all Thy benefactions
to us of light, of love, and of service.
May we find and do Thy will
in good strength, in good cheer today.

May Thy ever-present grace be discovered
by family and friends
-- those here and those beyond --
by our Societies throughout the world,
by men and women everywhere,
and among those who must lead
in these troubled times.

Oh Lord, we know Thee to be all wonder,
all beauty, all glory, all power, all love.
Indeed, Thou art everlasting love.

Accordingly, Thou has fashioned for us
a destiny passing through Thy many mansions,
ever in more discovery of Thee
and in no separation between ourselves.

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++++Message 5070. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The Talk Bill Gave the Night Dr
Bob Died 11/16/1950
From: david l . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/18/2008 1:37:00 PM

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I have a CD given to me by my sponsor of
Bill's talk the night Dr. Bob died.

My email address is: <heart943@yahoo.com>
(heart943 at yahoo.com)

- - - -

From: "Jim S." <james.scarpine@verizon.net>
(james.scarpine at verizon.net)

See messages #654,#655,656 and 743. The last
is the actor's "disclaimer," justifying his
fictionalization of AA's history.

Jim S.

- - - -

jlobdell54 <jlobdell54@hotmail.com> wrote:

The only recording I know of bearing this
title (or a variant of it) is a reenactment
created by Bill McN, who will btw be present
at the History & Archives Gathering in Lebanon
Pennsylvania on June 21, speaking on
"Dramatizing AA History" -- and as Chris will
be there, and if this is the talk he's referring
to, he'll be able to check Bill's sources
with him.

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++++Message 5071. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The Talk Bill Gave the Night Dr
Bob Died 11/16/1950
From: Jim Hoffman . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/20/2008 11:05:00 PM

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Hi,

My wife and I run a recording business here
in Largo, Fl (between Clearwater and St. Pete).

We often get someone asking us if we heard
about a CD or tape of a talk Bill made at the
Kip's Bay Group on the night Dr. Bob died.
Lots of times they will have the tape or CD
with them and wish to share it with us.

We always feel a little bad when we have to
tell them it is an actor and it is just a play
he has written and performed. Usually we will
play a real recording of Bill and the person
will hear right away that the voices are
different.

We have never heard a real recording of Bill
speaking on the night Dr. Bob died. The easiest
way to check would be to compare the voice
against a CD you know is one of Bill. GSO makes
a copy of Bill talking about the Traditions
and you should be able to pick one up at your
Intergroup Office.

Good Luck

Jim Hoffman
Vision Audio

727/539/0101 (Office)

727/581/3293 (Home)

727/251/3188 (Cell)

visionaudio@verizon.net

Jhoffma6@tampabay.rr.com
(Jhoffma6 at tampabay.rr.com)

- - - -

Original message from: david l
<heart943@yahoo.com>
(heart943 at yahoo.com)

I have a CD given to me by my sponsor of
Bill's talk the night Dr. Bob died.

My email address is: <heart943@yahoo.com>
(heart943 at yahoo.com)

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++++Message 5072. . . . . . . . . . . . 14th printing circus jacket
From: Lee Nickerson . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/22/2008 11:54:00 AM

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Does an original circus jacket for the 14th
printing say "14th printing" on it?

Was the publisher at that time (1951) Works
Publishing or Alcoholics Anonymous Publishing
Inc.?

I know that they are printing reproductions
and I want to know if my jacket is original?
It clearly looks old although in good
condition???

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++++Message 5073. . . . . . . . . . . . Recordings of Dr. Bob speaking?
From: Li Lightfoot . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/22/2008 8:06:00 PM

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Does anyone know if there are any recordings
of Dr. Bob available to the public?

Thanks,

Li

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++++Message 5074. . . . . . . . . . . . The shift from "Works Publishing" to
"AA Publishing"
From: Arthur Sheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/22/2008 8:21:00 PM

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Hi Lee

The name change from "Works Publishing, Inc"
to "Alcoholics Anonymous Publishing, Inc"
occurred in 1953.

The 12&12 was the first book distributed under
the new publishing name.

Cheers
Arthur

- - - -

From: Hal Lackey <mudshark6178@yahoo.com>
(mudshark6178 at yahoo.com)

Can't say about the dustcover. My 14th
printing says Works Publishing.

- - - -

ORIGINAL MESSAGE from: "Lee Nickerson"
<snowlily@megalink.net> (snowlily at megalink.net)

14th PRINTING CIRCUS JACKET

Was the publisher at that time (1951) Works
Publishing or Alcoholics Anonymous Publishing
Inc.?

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++++Message 5075. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 14th printing circus jacket
From: schaberg43 . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/23/2008 8:40:00 AM

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The dust jacket for the 14th printing of
the 1st edition reads: "Fourteenth Printing"
on lower half of the spine of the dust
jacket. Reproductions typically duplicate
this accurately.

The 14th printing was published by Works
Publishing Inc.

Old Bill

- - - -

From: Tom Hickcox <cometkazie1@cox.net>
(cometkazie1 at cox.net)

Others may be in a better position to answer
this question than I, but here goes.

I don't have a 14th printing but I do have
a 13th with an original DJ backed up by a
facsimile.

There are two differences that jump out at me.
"Thirteenth Printing" is printed at the top
of the front flap of the original but is
missing from the facsimile. The red dot on
the spine of the original seems to be smaller
than that on the facsimile.

It seems to me that the font used for the
facsimile has "fatter" letters than the
original, but that may be my imagination
at work.

There may be other differences, but I will
leave it to the more observant to point them
out.

I have facsimile DJs on my other three First
Editions. None of them have the printing
number on the front flap.

I hope this helps.

Tommy in Baton Rouge

P.S. After writing this, I came across a
listing for a 1/16th which showed the DJ and
it has the printing number on the front flap.

There is a 1st/16th listed on eBay, item
#300234353426. It has an original DJ and
shows "Sixteenth Printing" on the front flap.
Another suggestion that inclusion of the
printing number in this location is an indi-
cation that the DJ is original and not a
facsimile.

Tommy

- - - -

From: DudleyDobinson@aol.com
(DudleyDobinson at aol.com)

Hi Lee,

The publisher of the 14th was Works Publishing
and the DJ should say the same and have 14th
on the spine and on the top of the front fly
page.

You can tell the replicas because they usually
have a lighter yellow and the printing # on
the spine only. This apart from apparent
less wear and tear.

I have a 4th,6th ,15th & 16th with originals,
my other ones have replicas.

Regards Dudley

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++++Message 5076. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The shift from "Works
Publishing" to "AA Publishing"
From: srgntbilko . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/22/2008 3:20:00 PM

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My 11th printing of the Big Book says copyright
by Works -- at the bottom of the page it says
"By the Cornwall Press Inc. Cornwall, NY --
Printed in the United States of America."

I don't know the business so I don't know what
that all means.

Sarge

- - - -

From the moderator: Cornwall Press was the
printer; they were the ones who actually
printed the books on their printing presses.

See Messages 5016, 4802, 4295, 4291, 3937,
3677, 3617, 3292, 3207, 3117, etc.

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

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++++Message 5077. . . . . . . . . . . . 100th Anniversary of Buchmans
awakening
From: jays5279 . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/25/2008 2:06:00 AM

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Today (this Friday, June 27, 2008) it is
100 years.

Jay Stinnett
310/874/2341

- - - -

The Apology That Launched a Million Amends

June 27th, 2008, will mark the 100th
anniversary of Frank Buchman's Spiritual
Awakening – one that directly linked him
to the cofounders of AA

He gave everything he had to establishing a
shelter for homeless boys in the slums of
Philadelphia. The shelters success surpassed
his budget and the six-member board of
directors insisted that he cut the amount of
food being given to his charges. He quit
instead of cutting back. Resentment consumed
him. His family despaired that he might not
come to his senses. His work was destroyed by
what he saw as the shortsightedness of others.
His health was well past the breaking point.

"Everywhere I went, I took me with me," he
later said. During a trip to recuperate in
Europe, he exhausted the funds his father gave
him and existed on the kindness of his family
and the generosity of acquaintances. Tired and
dejected he went to an Evangelical Conference
in Keswick, England, hoping to connect with
F.B. Meyer, a famous minister he knew, for
spiritual help. Meyer was not in attendance;
another plan gone awry.

June 27, 1908, thirty year-old Frank Buchman,
a Pennsylvanian Lutheran minister, walked into
an afternoon service with 17 other people to
hear Jessie Penn Lewis preach on the cross of
Christ. And then it happened.

As Buchman sat in that Chapel, "There was a
moment of spiritual peak of what God could do
for me. I was made a new man. My hatred was
gone ... I knew I had to write six letters to
those men I hated."

"I am writing," declared Buchman, "to tell you
that I have harbored an unkind feeling toward
you -- at times I conquered it but it always
came back. Our views may differ but as
brothers we must love. I write to ask your
forgiveness and to assure that I love you and
trust by God's grace I shall never more speak
unkindly or disparagingly of you."

Those letters of amends spawned a revolution
in Frank Buchman, a revolution that led to the
birth of Alcoholics Anonymous.

That evening, Frank was introduced to a young
Cambridge man, who upon hearing Buchman's tale
of moral regeneration made a decision to change
his own life. As Buchman described it, "This
was the first fellow who I knew that I had
ever brought face to face with that central
experience." For the next half century Buchman
dedicated his life to demonstrating that an
experience of God was available to anyone at
any time, regardless of race, religion, class
or nationality.

From England, Frank returned to the United
States where he went to work as the YMCA
director at Penn State University. There he
had a profound effect on campus life, due in
part to the conversion of the campus bootlegger,
who during a trip to Toronto with Frank and a
group of students from Penn State, made a
decision to change his life. After having Frank
help him by writing an amends letter to his
wife, the bootlegger never drank again and
went around the world with Frank talking about
his change.

Frank Buchman described the four years that he
spent at Penn State as the laboratory in which
he developed a practical program of action and
learned how to have honest conversations that
led people to make decisions to change their
lives.

The formula he developed was:

1. The sharing of our sins and temptations
with another Christian life given to God, and
to use sharing as witness to help others, still
unchanged, to recognize and acknowledge their
sins.

2. Surrender of our life, past, present, and
future, into God's keeping and direction.

3. Restitution to all whom we have wronged
directly or indirectly.

4. Listening to, accepting, relying on God's
guidance and carrying it out in everything we
do or say, great or small.

Sound familiar?

The application of this course of action
revolutionized the spiritual life of the
campus, and its success brought Christian
evangelists from all over the world to find
out what was happening on a backwater
campus that had been paralyzed by strife.

After Penn State, Frank went to China in 1917
where an honest conversation with a young
Sam Shoemaker helped Sam to tell him, "I have
been a pious fraud, pretending to serve God
but actually keeping all the trump cards in
my own hands. Now I've told Him how sorry I am,
and I trust you'll forgive me for harboring
ill will against you. This sprang up the moment
you used that word sin!"

Buchman said that he freely forgave him. "Now
what's the next step?" Shoemaker asked. The
next step was making amends to Sam's Bible
study class. The trouble was, Shoemaker told
his Chinese students, he disliked China. That
admission produced such a profound spiritual
experience in Shoemaker that it led to his
working closely with Buchman for the next
twenty-one years and brought the revolution
of "First Century Christianity" (later known
as the Oxford Group) to people worldwide.

The message of personal revolution was
transmitted by one "informed Christian" sharing
with another and by inviting people to "house
parties." If you have ever attended an AA
convention or round up you have experienced an
Oxford Group house party. Speakers were brought
in from a variety of places to share their
experience, strength and hope in both large
speaker meetings and small special interest
meetings. Men would tell their stories in
men's meetings; women in women's; there were
even forums for drug addicts, overeaters, and
drunks. At these gatherings, both speakers
and experienced members would be available
for "personal interviews" where sharing and
surrender could take place. Then people would
be encouraged to make restitution and have a
daily "quiet time" to receive inspiration on
how to conduct their lives.

When he was pressed for a definition of sin,
Buchman said, "What is a sin for one person may
not be a sin for another. The true definition
of sin is that it is something that separates
you from God or from your fellows."

In 1922, Jim Newton, a young salesman with a
taste for fast living, followed a group of
attractive young women into a hotel ballroom
thinking they were going to a dance. To his
dismay he found himself in an Oxford Group
house party at the Toy Town Tavern in
Winchengton, Massachusetts, where he heard
a message that changed his life. Buchman
referred Newton to Shoemaker who helped Newton
take stock of his life, surrender, make
restitution, and start to live a "guided life."
If you wish to know the Oxford Group technique
of guidance read pages 85-87 in the book
Alcoholics Anonymous.

A few years later, Jim Newton was trying to
help Bud F., the alcoholic son of his employer,
Harvey F., to change. Unable to help his
friend, Jim introduced Bud to his mentor,
Samuel Shoemaker. Sam, who had a remarkable
gift bringing people to make a decision, went
through the process with Bud who immediately
lost his obsession to drink, made amends to
his father and wife, and returned to the good
graces of his family.

Harvey F. was so impressed with the change in
his son that he convinced his fellow industri-
alists in Akron, Ohio, to help underwrite an
Oxford Group house party held in January 1933
at the Mayflower Hotel. Buchman and his team
were welcomed by the Rev. Walter Tunks, a
close friend of the F. family; also in
attendance were Henrietta Seiberling and
T. Henry and Clarace Williams who were to
become the founders of the West Hills meeting
of the Oxford Group in Akron.

Also in 1933, Shoemaker's ministry at Calvary
Church in New York City's Gramercy Park was
a hub of Oxford Group activity. There were
Oxford Group meetings held three times a week
at Calvary Church where people shared the
life changes they had discovered from applying
the Oxford Group principles. He also founded
the Calvary Mission, which was a hostel for
indigent alcoholic men.

Many important families had ties to this
Calvary Church, among them the H. family whose
eldest son Rowland was described by Bill W.
as "a business man who had ability, good
sense and high character ... who had
floundered from one sanitarium to another."
Rowland had returned from Europe after another
attempt to get his life in order after consult-
ing with Dr. Carl Jung. Rowland was drinking
and going to Oxford Group meetings at Calvary
Church. Among the people whom he met at
Calvary was Vic Kitchen, author of I Was a
Pagan (published in 1934), which described
his release from alcoholism, drug addiction,
and "anything that gave me pleasure, power
or applause" in the Oxford Group. While on a
business trip to Detroit, Rowland read the
book, identified at depth, and as Shoemaker
said, "had a change right there on the train."
Rowland stopped drinking, reconciled with
his family, made restitution for questionable
business dealings, became active with the
Oxford Group businessmen's team, spoke at
meetings and encouraged others to find what
he had found.

One of the many people Rowland touched was an
old childhood friend, Edwin 'Ebby' T., who was
about to be locked up as a chronic inebriate.
Rowland, whose alcohol problem was well known,
convinced the judge to release Ebby into his
care. Two weeks later, Ebby was speaking at
Oxford Group meetings around Vermont, and after
a couple of weeks with Rowland (who had all of
six months in the group), the freshly sober
Ebby moved into Calvary Mission in New York
City and became active there.

Sober six weeks, Ebby was inspired to find
another old school friend, Bill W., who was
known to be in awful shape. Bill could not get
the change in Ebby out of his mind for he knew
his friend was a hopeless drunk like himself,
yet was sober. A few days after that, Bill
went to see Ebby at the Calvary Mission, gave
an impassioned, albeit drunken testimony from
the podium and soon after landed in Townes
Hospital. Ebby visited him there and
reacquainted Bill with the steps of the
Oxford Group whereupon Bill had his profound
white light experience, lost his compulsion to
drink and was seized with a desire to pass on
his experience to others.

When Bill was released, he and Lois immediately
started attending Oxford Group meetings at
Calvary Church and had frequent contact with
Sam Shoemaker. Lois said that they went to a
minimum of three meetings a week and attended
house parties during the first three years of
Bill's sobriety.

Six months after sobering up, Bill went to
Akron, Ohio, on a business venture that failed.
When he found himself about to enter the bar
at the same Mayflower Hotel where the Oxford
Group had met, he started searching for an to
help. That moment of desperation led him to
the Rev. Walter Tunks and ultimately to
Henrietta Seiberling who knew just the man.

A local proctologist, who thought he was a
closet drinker, had been attending the West
Hill Oxford Group meeting for two years with
his wife, his problem becoming progressively
worse. The Doctor later described his
impression of the West Hills Group, "I was
thrown in with a crowd of people ....
I sensed that they had something I did not
have, from which I might readily profit. I
learned that it was something of a spiritual
nature, which did not appeal to me very much,
but I thought it could do no harm."

Bill W. met with Bob S. (lovingly referred to
as Dr. Bob) on Mother's Day 1935. Bob stopped
drinking abruptly. Though he accepted Bill's
description of alcoholism as a fatal illness
and the Oxford Group steps as the solution,
Bob believed that making restitution to those
he had harmed would destroy his practice and
put his family further at risk.

A short time later, Bob drank again and was
completely demoralized. On the way to perform
a surgery, Bill steadied his friend's hand
with a bottle of beer and a "goofball."
Before entering the hospital, Bob told Bill,
"I am going to go through with it." That
afternoon Bob did not return home. His wife,
Anne, and Bill were filled with dread that
Bob had gone on another binge. When Dr. Bob
returned late that night, he told his
frightened loved ones that he had been making
restitution to people to whom he had been
too afraid to admit his alcoholism. Bob S.
never took another drink.

AA's anniversary is not the day Bill W.
stopped drinking, nor the day that he met
Dr. Bob, but the day that Bob stopped
drinking and made his amends.

From 100 years ago in Keswick, to 73 years ago
in Akron, to this very moment; women and men
are proving the validity of their own personal
spiritual awakening by making amends for their
past wrongs, making restitution and rectifying
their errors.

Frank Buchman's metamorphosis was remarkable.
He developed a program for personal change
that affected homes and nations. It is a
practical program of action using the four
standards of absolute honesty, purity,
unselfishness and love. Over the past one
hundred years, Buchman's vision has been
transmitted under different names: First
Century Christian Movement, the Oxford Group,
Moral Re-Armament, and since 2001, Initiatives
of Change, which continues to heal the wounds
of history by building trust across the
world's divides.

Without Frank Buchman, those of us in today's
many anonymous programs would have no 12 steps
and no freedom from bondage. His spiritual
awakening and the action that followed indeed
launched a million amends and produced many
millions of transformed lives.

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++++Message 5078. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The shift from "Works
Publishing" to "AA Publishing"
From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/27/2008 11:40:00 AM

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The Alcoholics Anonymous Publishing Inc.
12 and 12 cost $2.75 according to the (blue)
jacket price and was identified as first
edition d-c and copyright 1952-1953.

There was also a 12 and 12 published by
Harper's with a different colored jacket
(greenish blue) also $2.75. It is first
edition also marked d-c and stated published
by Harper & Brothers, New York by arrangement
with Alcoholics Anonymous Publishing Inc.
It is copyright 1952-1953 by Alcoholics
Anonymous Publishing Inc.

Yours in Service,
Shakey Mike Gwirtz
Phila, Pa.

- - - -

In a message dated 6/27/2008 3:26:32 P.M.
Eastern Daylight Time, ArtSheehan@msn.com writes:

The name change from "Works Publishing, Inc"
to "Alcoholics Anonymous Publishing, Inc"
occurred in 1953.

The 12&12 was the first book distributed under
the new publishing name.

Cheers
Arthur

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++++Message 5079. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Recordings of Dr. Bob speaking?
From: Byron Bateman . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/26/2008 7:08:00 AM

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Li,

There is a cassette tape available from AAWS,
or perhaps, your intergroup office. (Probably
a CD by now) The title is: "Voices of our
Co-Founders." It has both Bill W. and Dr. Bob
on the tape. I have one somewhere and as I
recall it contains two speeches by Dr. Bob,
and three speeches by Bill W.

I can find it and give you specifics if you
would like to email me personally:

"Byron Bateman" <byronbateman@hotmail.com>
(byronbateman at hotmail.com)

It should be widely available through A.A.
sources. The quality of Dr. Bob's speeches
is not very good because the originals were
cut on a wire recorder I was told.

Byron

- - - -

From: barefootbill@optonline.net
(barefootbill at optonline.net)

Please go to http://www.justloveaudio.com
then click on "store"
then click on "Recovery Audio"
then click on "AA"
then do a search by putting in Dr. Bob in the
speaker field.

We have every known talk by Dr. Bob all on
one CD.

Thanks & God bless.

- - - -

From: "jfk92452000" <jfk92452000@yahoo.com>
(jfk92452000 at yahoo.com)

Li, Yes there are several recordings of
Dr. Bob. His last talk at the Cleveland
Convention in 1950 was recorded and is
available from "Nova Tapes by Earl" in
Cross Junction, Virginia. 540/888/4505 or
800/825/0560. I think there is an on-line
site.

These recordings were done originally on spool
and are tough to listen to but the message and
hearing his voice will send chills up your
spine. There are recordings of Bill, Sister
Ignatia , Reverend Sam Shoemaker and Ebby and
many others. They are great because I feel
like I am getting the program right from the
horses mouth. Let me know if you have any
problem contacting Nova.

John F.Kenney

- - - -

From: James Bliss <james.bliss@comcast.net>
(james.bliss at comcast.net)
Mike Barns <mikeb384@verizon.net>
(mikeb384 at verizon.net)
<elg3_79@yahoo.com>
(elg3_79 at yahoo.com)
robin@brieftsf.com
(robin at brieftsf.com)

Go to http://www.xa-speakers.org and search
for Dr. Bob.

There are three recordings of Dr. Bob available
for download or listening at:

http://www.xa-speakers.org/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=326

Jim

- - - -

From: "oldsmokef" <oldsmokef@yahoo.com>
(oldsmokef at yahoo.com)
<elg3_79@yahoo.com>
(elg3_79 at yahoo.com)
Mike Craven <wahoo126@embarqmail.com>
(wahoo126 at embarqmail.com)
Dave <onemoreday214@yahoo.com>
(onemoreday214 at yahoo.com)

Look here:

http://www.aaprimarypurpose.org/speakers.htm

- - - -

From: DudleyDobinson@aol.com

Hi Li,

I have a recording of Bill W. and Dr. Bob
speaking at the "big meeting" in Cleveland
1950. The recording lasts 1.08 hours and is
8.23mb. The format is Real Player and I will
forward it to anyone who wants it.

Olease send your request to my email address:

DudleyDobinson@aol.com
(DudleyDobinson at aol.com)

In fellowship Dudley

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++++Message 5080. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Editors of Second Edition
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/29/2008 9:05:00 PM

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In message 5021, Jared Lobdell
<jlobdell54@hotmail.com> (jlobdell54 at hotmail.com)
commented:

"I'd be interested to know which was the
story Tom included [in the second edition of
the Big Book] that some AAs didn't like (or
whose author they didn't like)."

- - - -

Matt D. <mdingle76@yahoo.com>
(mdingle76 at yahoo.com) responds:

2nd edition story: "New Vision for a Sculptor."
The author's name was Fred (I think) Ginsberg.

Matt D

- - - -

For more about that story, see:

http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/Authors.htm
(http://silkworth.net/aabiography/storyauthors.html)

"New Vision for a Sculptor"
Fred (last name unknown)
New York City
p. 426 in 2nd edition

Glenn C., Moderator

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++++Message 5081. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Editors of Second Edition: New
Vision for a Sculptor
From: Mike Saulle . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/30/2008 12:41:00 AM

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The 2nd edition Big Book story "New Vision
for a Sculptor" can be found in "Experience,
Strength and Hope," the AAWS collection of
all the earlier Big Book stories which are
no longer in the present edition of the Big
Book: see pages 166-178.

- - - -

In message 5021, Jared Lobdell
<jlobdell54@hotmail. com> (jlobdell54 at hotmail.com)
commented:

"I'd be interested to know which was the
story Tom included [in the second edition of
the Big Book] that some AAs didn't like (or
whose author they didn't like)."

- - - -

Matt D. <mdingle76@yahoo. com>
(mdingle76 at yahoo.com) responds:

2nd edition story: "New Vision for a Sculptor."
The author's name was Fred (I think) Ginsberg.

Matt D

- - - -

For more about that story, see:

http://www.a- 1associates. com/aa/Authors. htm
(http://silkworth. net/aabiography/ storyauthors. html)

"New Vision for a Sculptor"
Fred (last name unknown)
New York City
p. 426 in 2nd edition

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++++Message 5082. . . . . . . . . . . . AA History Resource
From: mdingle76 . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/30/2008 10:00:00 AM

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Just want the group to be aware of an AA
history resource — 24 Newsletter. 24 Newsletter
is a current version of the 24 Magazine. 24
Magazine was probably best known for the
article, "Gresham's Law and Alcoholics
Anonymous." The author of this article is
Tom P. Jr. Tom P. Jr. is the publisher of
24 Newsletter and contributes an article
about AA each month.

To view June's 24 Newsletter:
http://www.24-communications.com/062008/062008.pdf

For an example of little bits of AA history
-- in June's newsletter Tom Jr. gives the
name of the hymn Marty Mann used to describe
her spiritual experience to Dr. Tiebout
which was, "Leaning on the Everlasting Arms."

Next month's main article is about Dr. Tom M.
(AA 1939) -- in which Bill W. called, "One
of the greatest stories to come out of AA"
-- and is an actual transcript of Bill
telling about Dr. Tom M. Dr. Tom got the AA
Big Book in 1939 while a patient at
Lexington Hospital for drug addicts. Tom M.
wrote to AA, got sober, started one of the
first groups to communicate with headquarters
by mail, and more.

To sign up for a free version of this
newsletter email:

alladdictsanonymous@gmail.com
(alladdictsanonymous at gmail.com)

Please specify if you would like this
resource mailed to your home (and in such
case give us your mailing address) or if
just the online version. Either way this
resource is free!

Matt D.

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++++Message 5083. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Editors of Second Edition: Fred
G.
From: mdingle76 . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/30/2008 8:52:00 PM

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"New Vision for a Sculptor" was controversial
because Fred Ginsberg didn't get officially
sober in AA —- he was ten years dry when he
hit his first AA meeting.

Matt D.

- - - -

> In message 5021, Jared Lobdell
> <jlobdell54@...> (jlobdell54 at hotmail.com)
> commented:
>
> "I'd be interested to know which was the
> story Tom included [in the second edition of
> the Big Book] that some AAs didn't like (or
> whose author they didn't like)."
>
> - - - -
>
> Matt D. <mdingle76@...>
> (mdingle76 at yahoo.com) responds:
>
> 2nd edition story: "New Vision for a Sculptor."
> The author's name was Fred (I think) Ginsberg.
>
> Matt D
>
> - - - -
>
> For more about that story, see:
>
> http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/Authors.htm
> (http://silkworth.net/aabiography/storyauthors.html)
>
> "New Vision for a Sculptor"
> Fred (last name unknown)
> New York City
> p. 426 in 2nd edition
>
> Glenn C., Moderator
>

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++++Message 5084. . . . . . . . . . . . Spiritual not religious
From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/4/2008 4:44:00 PM

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We frequently hear in the rooms that the AA
program is "spiritual not religious."

I am aware that Bill W. has been quoted as
saying "we are not a religious organization"
and that the Big Book says ... "we have written
a book which we believe to be spiritual as
well as moral."

Does anyone recall seeing in anything in print
attributable to Bill W., the first 100 or in
Conference literature that says "spriritual
not religious"?

Facts only please, no opinions on the topic!

God Bless

John B

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++++Message 5085. . . . . . . . . . . . Fifth steps in early AA
From: Raymond Shepherd . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/5/2008 10:28:00 PM

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What was the procedure for early AA members
to take Step Five? The Big Book, the 12x12,
The Little Red Book all suggest people outside
of AA to hear the fifth step.

Some of my protogees question my use of The
Little Red Book because it tells the reader
'when the right time arrives, arrange an
interview with anyone outside AA who will
be understanding but unaffected by your
narration.'

Does anyone have information regarding hearing
of Fifth steps in early AA prior to 1953?

Ray S.

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++++Message 5086. . . . . . . . . . . . Set A Side Prayer
From: Alan Spencer . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/3/2008 12:39:00 AM

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Some of the Big Book Studies around the country
use a prayer called the set-a-side prayer; does
anyone have the words?

Thanks,
Alan in the Desert

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++++Message 5087. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr. Tom M. (AA 1939)
From: mrpetesplace . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/1/2008 10:33:00 PM

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A man named Dr. Tom M. was referred to in
message 5082: "AA History Resource"
from: <mdingle76@yahoo.com>
(mdingle76 at yahoo.com)
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/5082

That message said:

<<Next month's main article is about Dr. Tom M.
(AA 1939) -- in which Bill W. called, "One
of the greatest stories to come out of AA"
-- and is an actual transcript of Bill
telling about Dr. Tom M.>>

<<Dr. Tom got the AA Big Book in 1939 while
a patient at Lexington Hospital for drug
addicts. Tom M. wrote to AA, got sober,
started one of the first groups to communicate
with headquarters by mail, and more.>>

- - - -

I would like to know if this Dr. Tom M. is
the same person as the man who is associated
with Shelby, North Carolina. That is where AA
started in this state. This man went to
Lexington, Kentucky. I'm fairly sure that this
is the same person.

I would like to get as much info on Dr.
Tom M. as I can. I'm going to be posting local
history for this area soon at http://aastuff.com/

This would be the doctor that Bill talks about
visiting on his trip south and stopped off at
a little town when he closed his talk with the
Yale Summer lectures on Alcoholism.

The other person to spread AA in North Carolina
was mentioned in AA Comes of Age. He had moved
south and started the Charlotte group which
was the second group listed with the Alcoholic
Foundation (as it was called then, now called
the GSO).

Interesting too was when Dr. Tom corresponded
with NY they were already sharing about how
the AA Program could help addicts as well.

Anyway ... thanks to anyone who can provide this
information or transcripts of correspondence.

Peter F., NC

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++++Message 5088. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Set A Side Prayer
From: DalPalGal@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/6/2008 3:26:00 PM

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Here ya go, Alan ... from The 12 Step Prayer
Book:

Lord, today help me set aside everything
I think I know about You

Everything I think I know about myself

Everything I think I know about others and

Everything I think I know about my own
recovery

For a new experience in myself

A new experience in my fellows and my own
recovery.

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++++Message 5089. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The shift from "Works
Publishing" to "AA Publishing"
From: JOHN WIKELIUS . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/27/2008 4:49:00 PM

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A third printing by Harper of the 12&12 ???

- - - -

I have a Harper 12&12 with BK also. I believe
there is a third printing by Harper but I only
saw it one time and did not note the Harper
code for the date of publication. I could kick
myself now.

- - - -

> The Alcoholics Anonymous Publishing Inc.
> 12 and 12 cost $2.75 according to the (blue)
> jacket price and was identified as first
> edition d-c and copyright 1952-1953.
>
> There was also a 12 and 12 published by
> Harper's with a different colored jacket
> (greenish blue) also $2.75. It is first
> edition also marked d-c and stated published
> by Harper & Brothers, New York by arrangement
> with Alcoholics Anonymous Publishing Inc.
> It is copyright 1952-1953 by Alcoholics
> Anonymous Publishing Inc.
>
> Yours in Service,
> Shakey Mike Gwirtz
> Phila, Pa.
>
> - - - -
>
> In a message dated 6/27/2008 3:26:32 P.M.
> Eastern Daylight Time, ArtSheehan@msn.com writes:
>
> The name change from "Works Publishing, Inc"
> to "Alcoholics Anonymous Publishing, Inc"
> occurred in 1953.
>
> The 12&12 was the first book distributed under
> the new publishing name.
>
> Cheers
> Arthur
>
>
>

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++++Message 5090. . . . . . . . . . . . The start of AA in Cuba (Part 1 of
2)
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/6/2008 3:52:00 PM

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From: Bruce Kennedy <BruceKen@aol.com>
(BruceKen at aol.com)

The start of AA in Cuba

Summary: (Hulda Lorente's full recollections
appear as an appendix to this document.)

Deteriorating economic conditions following
the collapse of the Soviet Union had brought
alcoholism and other social problems to a
crisis point in Cuba by 1992. On a visit to
Cuba from Miami, a non-alcoholic Cuban friend
of AA, Hulda Lorente, gained an appointment
with a representative of the Central Committee
of the Cuban Communist Party and explained
the AA program. She was advised to contact
a Protestant pastoral couple in Havana,
skilled in working with social problems: Juan
Naranjo and Estela Hernandez.

After several false starts, including the
demurral of several Miami Cuban AA groups when
asked to help, Lorente made contact with the
San Francisco-based organization which had
helped start and spread the Program in the
Soviet Union and elsewhere in Eastern Europe.
Although this organization was unable to extend
its writ to Latin America, one of its members,
Bruce K., learned of Lorente's quest and
contacted her. He then "recruited" six other
AA friends, mostly from the Bay Area, and
together with Lorente, navigated the red tape
of visas and travel arrangements.

The seven American AA members plus Hulda
Lorente arrived in Havana on January xxth, 1993,
were met by the Reverends Hernandez and Naranjo,
and were hosted at their Baptist church for a
week. They arranged for seven local alcoholics
to come to the church for a discussion of
alcoholism, resulting in the first AA meeting,
Jan. 19th, 1993.

Two subsequent meetings were held during the
course of that week. At the last meeting, the
Cuban alcoholics chose a name for their group:
Grupo Sueño ("Dream Group"), based on their
belief that after the Americans left, their
brief experience with sobriety and AA would be
nothing but a dream.

Note: the large Grupo Sueño still meets three
times a week in Havana, and is Cuba's "official"
first group. The original seven Cuban members
all drank, but not before carrying the message
to others. Two of these others, sober since
January 1993, are now the "oldest" Cuban AA
members as of the 10th anniversary.

Five months later, June, 1993, one of the seven
Americans, Arkie K., who speaks Spanish,
returned to Cuba with a Spanish-speaking friend
from La Jolla, Mike C. They traveled with
Naranjo and Hernandez and with a member of the
Grupo Sueño to the inland city of Santa Clara,
where, with the help of another Protestant
pastor, Cuba's second AA group was founded
("Grupo Nueva Vida" -- new life).

Thereafter, the message began to spread rapidly.
A major contributing factor was that Mexican
AA members were now traveling to Cuba in large
numbers, bringing Spanish language AA literature
as well as their experience, strength and hope.
Another factor was the poor state of public
transportation, creating the necessity for
meetings closer to home.

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++++Message 5091. . . . . . . . . . . . The start of AA in Cuba (Part 2 of
2)
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/6/2008 3:54:00 PM

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From: Bruce Kennedy <BruceKen@aol.com>
(BruceKen at aol.com)

Appendix: The beginnings of AA in Cuba --
Hulda Lorente's story

You asked me to tell you the story of how the
message of AA arrived in Cuba in January,
1993. I learned about the program of AA
through a friend about 10 years prior to this
date in Syracuse, NY. I remember we were
eating donuts and drinking coffee after the
Service at Unity Church in Syracuse, and
timidly I came over to say hello. As I
spoke, the first question I was asked by Marti
R. was, where was my English accent from, to
which even more timidly I responded: from Cuba.

I was surprised to see the brightness in her
eyes when she said: from Cuba? How wonderful!
From there on I felt very comfortable as if
I were home. I could speak about Cuba with
someone from the bottom of my heart. I had
found a friend.

From Marti R., I learned that AA was her
spiritual path. What I heard sounded good.
As she explained to me the program I learned
to accept the Twelve Steps as a way of life,
without ever asking myself the reason why it
was so important for her to pass on the message.
I never thought to relate the program of
recovery with alcohol, primarily because I
never saw alcohol anywhere in the ten years
that later on we shared an apartment in
Miami, Florida, and secondly because I became
fascinated with the Twelve Steps. The Twelve
Steps of AA appeared to me to be logical,
rational, well-thought, with universal
characteristics, good for everybody.

I never felt the need to join an Alanon group.
I went to the AA open meetings because I liked
the people. The idea of bringing the message
of AA to Cuba happened on a very hot day of
the month of July in one of my trips to Cuba
to visit my family. I was walking by a park
on Linea Street and saw a man apparently asleep
on a steamily hot sidewalk. I wondered what
was the matter, and people passing by did not
help when realizing the man was drunk. I had
never seen before the effects of alcohol so
closely. I came back home to Miami with the
determination to make the program of recovery
of AA to be known in Cuba.

With the assurance of having by my side the
support of a well seasoned experienced member
of AA, I started talking to my friends from
Cuba in transit in Miami about AA. I sent
books with them, and encouraged them to open
the doors of their hearts and their churches
to meetings for people with problems with
alcohol to get together to study the books.
By doing this, the idea did not go too far.
I thought I should go farther with it.

With the help of my friend and spiritual
mentor, Dr. Adolfo Ham, I was able to get an
interview with Dr. Silvio Platero, a member
of the Office of Religious Affairs of the PCC.
I don't remember the date. I left with Dr.
Platero the blue book of AA and others. I
told him that I wanted to invite a pastor from
Cuba to spend 30 days in Miami to go to as
many AA meetings as possible in Spanish.
The person I was directed to was the Rev.
Juan Francisco Naranjo. The Rev. Naranjo and
his wife, the Rev. Estela Hernandez, were very
active in community services. I talked to them,
and pastor Naranjo accepted my invitation to
come to Miami in spite of telling him that I
did not have any money to pay for his airfare
and expenses. I wrote a letter of invitation
to him, and with that he was able to obtain a
visa to travel from Cuba to the U.S.

When pastor Naranjo returned to Cuba, he
brought with him several books and started AA
group meetings at his church. Even with this,
the idea did not make any progress. Pastor
Naranjo was not an alcoholic. The program of
recovery only works among alcoholics, sharing,
as you say their strengths, hopes and
experiences. The Cubans in Miami did not
take up the challenge thinking that they had
to wait for the revolution to be over before
they could bring the message of AA to Cuba.

One day, commenting about my project of bringing
the message of AA to Cuba with friends from
Peacenet, someone sent me an e-mail from South
Africa, I don't remember her name, who gave me
the phone number and the address of the organi-
zation based in San Francisco, CA, USA,
"Creating A Sober World". Without waiting
long, Bruce K, their coordinator, and I
started planning a trip to Cuba with members
of this organization. Bruce K called the
Department of State, and there was no need to
apply for a special license for the initial
group of 6 people to travel to Cuba. We were
received by the Rev. Juan Francisco Naranjo
and Estela Hernandez at the Havana airport
with free visas. We stayed with them, they
provided us with a meeting room, took care of
the details of a marvelous program of
activities in Cuba that included visits to
hospitals and places of treatment for
alcoholism. Thus, this is how the first AA
group "Sueño" started in Cuba at the "William
Carey" Baptist Church in January, 1993. I
remember bringing Julio to the meeting twice
by the hand, and twice he was asked to come
back sober. There was another person in the
meeting telling his best friend how bad was
his drinking habits, and with that person the
first group of Alanon started in Cuba. The
rest of the story has been written in a report
by Bruce K, which remains in the archives of
the organization "Creating a Sober World."
I am sure a copy could be made available to
you through Arkie K. or Bruce K.

I visited the Office of General Services of
AA in Havana last December, 2001. Almost ten
years after our first visit in 1993, there are
almost 100 AA groups across the Island of Cuba.
I am mystified over the dedication that the
offices of general services of AA offer to the
world and the role every one of its members
play locally to make the program work. My
message to my friends who still don't know
about AA, or those who perhaps know about it,
but are still in doubt, is that they may open
the doors of their hearts, their churches and
meeting places to the groups of AA in Cuba.

Hulda Lorente
P.O. Box 56032
St. Petersburg, FL 33732
Tel. 727/528/3149
e-mail: hlorente@hotmail.com
(hlorente at hotmail.com)

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++++Message 5092. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Fifth steps in early AA
From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/6/2008 3:51:00 PM

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We have Earl Treat's story of doing the early
steps in his story "He Sold Himself Short."

The specific passage is on p. 292 in the Third
Edition and p. 263 in the current edition.

Technically, though, this wasn't a Fifth Step
as the program had only six steps at the time.

He did it with Dr. Bob. No mention is made of
going through the steps with someone outside
the program.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

- - - -

At 21:28 7/5/2008, Raymond Shepherd wrote:

>What was the procedure for early AA members
>to take Step Five? The Big Book, the 12x12,
>The Little Red Book all suggest people outside
>of AA to hear the fifth step.
>
>Some of my protogees question my use of The
>Little Red Book because it tells the reader
>'when the right time arrives, arrange an
>interview with anyone outside AA who will
>be understanding but unaffected by your
>narration.'
>
>Does anyone have information regarding hearing
>of Fifth steps in early AA prior to 1953?

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++++Message 5093. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Spiritual not religious
From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/6/2008 12:46:00 PM

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In a letter dated 1954 (seen in The AA Way
of Life pg 95) Bill wrote, "We are only
operating a spiritual kindergarden to which
people are enabled to get over drinking and
find the grace to go on living to better
effect. Each man's theology has to be his own
quest, his own value."

The rest of pg 95 attributes its quotations
to AACOA pp 162, 163, 167.

"When the Big Book was being planned,some
members thought that it ought to be Christian
in the doctrinal sense. Others had no objection
to the use of the word "God," but wanted to
avoid doctrinal issues. Spirituality, yes.
Religion, no. Still others wanted a psycho-
logical book, to lure the Alcoholic in. Once
in he could take God or leave him alone as he
wished. To the rest of us this was shocking,
but happily we listened. Our group conscience
was at work to construct the most acceptable
and effective book possible. Every voice was
playing its appointed part. Our atheists and
agnostics widened our gateway so that all
who suffer might pass through, regardless of
their belief or lack of belief."

Yours in Service
Shakey Mike Gwirtz

- - - -

From Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)
<glennccc@sbcglobal.net>
(glennccc at sbcglobal.net)

The description of AA as "spiritual" rather
than "religious" goes back to the earliest
days. See for example this reference from
1940:

Message 381 Possibly the 1st AA Pamphlet
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/381

From William Lash

THE FIRST “A.A.” PAMPHLET
AS DERIVED FROM THE SERIES
OF ARTICLES FROM THE
HOUSTON PRESS

BY
LARRY JEWELL*

(April 1940)

[*Larry Jewell came to Houston from
Cleveland with only a Big Book and a
Spiritual Experience resulting from having
taken the Steps while hospitalized. His
Sponsors were Dr. Bob Smith & Clarence
Snyder.]

"This approach to alcoholism is squarely based
on our own drinking experience, what we have
learned from medicine and psychiatry, and upon
certain spiritual principles common to all
creeds. We think each man’s religious views,
if he has any, are his own affair. No member
is obliged to conform to anything whatever
except to admit that he has the alcoholic
illness and that he honestly wishes to be rid
of it."

"While every shade of opinion is expressed
among us we take no position as a group, upon
controversial questions. We are only trying
to aid the sick men and distracted families
who want to be at peace. We have found that
genuine tolerance of others, coupled with a
friendly desire to be of service is most
essential to our recovery."

- - - -

In a message dated 7/6/2008 3:14:43 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
jax760@yahoo.com writes:

We frequently hear in the rooms that the AA
program is "spiritual not religious."

I am aware that Bill W. has been quoted as
saying "we are not a religious organization"
and that the Big Book says ... "we have written
a book which we believe to be spiritual as
well as moral."

Does anyone recall seeing in anything in print
attributable to Bill W., the first 100 or in
Conference literature that says "spriritual
not religious"?

Facts only please, no opinions on the topic!

God Bless

John B

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++++Message 5094. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Set A Side Prayer
From: jm48301 . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/6/2008 5:00:00 PM

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In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Alan
Spencer <alan.nm46@...> wrote:
>
> Some of the Big Book Studies around the country
> use a prayer called the set-a-side prayer; does
> anyone have the words?
>
> Thanks,
> Alan in the Desert
______________________________________

The text of the Set-Aside Prayer and an
explanation of its source can be found in:

http://www.justloveaudio.com/resources/12_Steps_Recovery/Pre-Step_Work/\

Set-Aside_Prayer.pdf [17]

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++++Message 5095. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Spiritual not religious
From: Arthur Sheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/6/2008 10:00:00 PM

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Hi John

Regrettably there is much repeated in AA that
has no basis in fact. Early AA was very "pro
religion" but it never attempted to project
itself as a religion. When too few words are
cited it is usually at the expense of context.
And I don't agree at all with the context you
are portraying. This is rather long reply
since you are seeking citations.

From my own investigations it seems that
attempts to draw a distinction between the
words "spiritual" and "religious" are flawed
and sophomoric. The two words can be used
interchangeably based on just about any
dictionary. Do a search on the internet for
the text string "definition of spiritual."
Almost every return that derives from a
dictionary will define the word "spiritual"
as "religious" or "of religion" or "of the
soul" (spirit). Attempts to draw a contrasting
distinction between the two words rest far
more in the secularism of contemporary AA
rather than in AA's historical roots. Many
of AA's early historical friends were members
of the clergy and their influence was profound.
Bill W often stated that AA's two best friends
were medicine and religion.

Over the past two decades the rise of
secularism has spawned the notion of the
words "religion" or "religious" to almost
be pejoratives. I find this very disturbing.
Also be careful to not be too selective in
the sparse citing of Bill W and the Big Book
-- both cite many favorable descriptions of
"religion" or "religious." For example:

From Bill W's address to the 1960 National
Clergy Conference On Alcoholism:

(1) "Excellencies and Friends: My thanks to
Father Ray for his introduction. He has us off
to an appropriate start. This hour with you
is most meaningful to me and I trust it will
be to you and to A.A. as a whole. Every
thoughtful A.A. realizes that the divine grace,
which has always flowed through the Church, is
the ultimate foundation on which AA rests. Our
spiritual origins are Christian ..."

(2) "... It now occurs to me that it may be
profitable if we were to review the origins
of AA; to take a look at some of its under-
lying mechanisms -- an interior look as it
were. Of course I am here reflecting my own
views, and some of these are bound to be
speculative. At any rate, here they are.
Though AA roots are in the centuries-old
Christian community, there seems little doubt
that in an immediate sense our fellowship
began in the office of the much-respected Dr.
Carl Jung of Zurich ..."

(3) "... Now a final thought. Many a non-
alcoholic clergyman asks these questions about
Alcoholics Anonymous: "Why do clergymen so
often fail with alcoholics, when AA so often
succeeds? Is it possible that the grace of
AA is superior to that of the Church? Is
Alcoholics Anonymous a new religion, a
competitor of the Church?

If these misgivings had real substance, they
would be serious indeed. But, as I have
already indicated, Alcoholics Anonymous cannot
in the least be regarded as a new religion.
Our Twelve Steps have no theological content,
except that which speaks of "God as we under-
stand Him." This means that each individual
AA member may define God according to whatever
faith or creed he may have. Therefore there
isn't the slightest interference with the
religious views of any of our membership.
The rest of the Twelve Steps define moral
attitudes and helpful practices, all of them
precisely Christian in character. Therefore,
as far as they go, the Steps are good
Christianity; indeed they are good Catholicism,
something which Catholic writers have affirmed
more than once.

Neither does AA exert the slightest religious
authority over its members: No one is
compelled to believe anything. No one is
compelled to meet membership conditions. No
one is obliged to pay anything. Therefore we
have no system of authority, spiritual or
temporal, that is comparable to or in the
least competitive with the Church. At the
center of our society we have a Board of
Trustees. This body is accountable yearly to
a Conference of elected Delegates. These
Delegates represent the conscience and desire
of AA as regards functional or service
matters. Our Tradition contains an emphatic
injunction that these Trustees may never
constitute themselves as a government -- they
are to merely provide certain services that
enable AA as a whole to function. The same
principles apply at our group and area level.

Dr. Bob, my co-partner, had his own religious
views. For whatever they may be worth, I have
my own. But both of us have gone heavily on
record to the effect that these personal
views and preferences can never under any
conditions be injected into the AA program
as a working part of it. AA is a sort of
spiritual kindergarten, but that is all. Never
could it be called a religion.

Nor should any clergyman, because he does not
happen to be a channel of grace to alcoholics,
feel that he or his Church is lacking in
grace. No real question of grace is involved
at all - it is just a question of who can best
transmit God's abundance. It so happens that
we who have suffered alcoholism, we who can
identify so deeply with other sufferers, are
the ones usually best suited for this parti-
cular work. Certainly no clergyman ought to
feel any inferiority just because he himself
is not an alcoholic! Then, as I have already
emphasized, AA has actually derived all of
its principles, directly or indirectly, from
the Church.

Ours, gentlemen, is a debt of gratitude far
beyond any ability of mine to express. On
behalf of members everywhere, I give you our
deepest thanks for the warm understanding and
the wonderful co-operation that you have
everywhere afforded us. Please also have my
gratitude for the privilege of being with you
this morning. This is an hour that I shall
remember always ..."

From the Q&A that followed Bill's address:

(4) "... When these Steps were shown to my
friends, their reactions were quite mixed
indeed. Some argued that six steps had worked
fine, so why twelve? From our agnostic
contingent there were loud cries of too much
"God." Others objected to an expression, which
I had included which suggested getting on
one's knees while in prayer. I heavily resisted
these objections for months. But finally did
take out my statement about a suitable prayer-
ful posture and I finally went along with that
now tremendously important expression, "God
as we understand Him" - this expression having
been coined, I think, by one of our former
atheist members. This was indeed a ten-strike.
That one has since enabled thousands to join
AA who would have otherwise gone away. It
enabled people of fine religious training and
those of none at all to associate freely and
to work together. It made one's religion the
business of the AA member himself and not that
of his society.

That AA's Twelve Steps have since been in such
high esteem by the Church, that members of the
Jesuit Order have repeatedly drawn attention
to the similarity between them and the
Ignatian Exercises, is a matter for our
great wonder and gratitude indeed ..."

(5) From the Foreword to the Second Edition
Big Book:

"... Another reason for the wide acceptance
of A.A. was the ministration of friends --
friends in medicine, religion, and the press,
together with innumerable others who became
our able and persistent advocates. Without
such support, A.A. could have made only the
slowest progress. Some of the recommendations
of A.A.'s early medical and religious friends
will be found further on in this book.

Alcoholics Anonymous is not a religious
organization. Neither does A.A. take any
particular medical point of view, though we
cooperate widely with the men of medicine
as well as with the men of religion.

Alcohol being no respecter of persons, we are
an accurate cross section of America, and in
distant lands, the same democratic evening-up
process is now going on. By personal religious
affiliation, we include Catholics, Protestants,
Jews, Hindus, and a sprinkling of Moslems and
Buddhists. More than 15% of us are women ..."

(6) From Bill's Story

"... The door opened and he stood there,
fresh-skinned and glowing. There was something
about his eyes. He was inexplicably different.
What had happened?

I pushed a drink across the table. He refused
it. Disappointed but curious, I wondered what
had got into the fellow. He wasn't himself.
"Come, what's this all about?" I queried. He
looked straight at me. Simply, but smilingly,
he said, "I've got religion ..."

(7) From We Agnostics

"... We, who have traveled this dubious path,
beg you to lay aside prejudice, even against
organized religion. We have learned that
whatever the human frailties of various faiths
may be, those faiths have given purpose and
direction to millions. People of faith have
a logical idea of what life is all about.
Actually, we used to have no reasonable
conception whatever. We used to amuse our-
selves by cynically dissecting spiritual
beliefs and practices when we might have
observed that many spiritually-minded persons
of all races, colors, and creeds were demon-
strating a degree of stability, happiness and
usefulness which we should have sought
ourselves ..."

(8) From Into Action

"... We must be entirely honest with somebody
if we expect to live long or happily in this
world. Rightly and naturally, we think well
before we choose the person or persons with
whom to take this intimate and confidential
step. Those of us belonging to a religious
denomination which requires confession must,
and of course, will want to go to the properly
appointed authority whose duty it is to receive
it. Though we have no religious connection, we
may still do well to talk with someone ordained
by an established religion. We often find such
a person quick to see and understand our
problem. Of course, we sometimes encounter
people who do not understand alcoholics ..."

"... If circumstances warrant, we ask our
wives or friends to join us in morning
meditation. If we belong to a religious
denomination which requires a definite morning
devotion, we attend to that also. If not
members of religious bodies, we sometimes
select and memorize a few set prayers which
emphasize the principles we have been
discussing. There are many helpful books also.
Suggestions about these may be obtained from
one's priest, minister, or rabbi. Be quick to
see where religious people are right. Make
use of what they offer ..."

(9) From Working With Others

"... Your prospect may belong to a religious
denomination. His religious education and
training may be far superior to yours. In that
case he is going to wonder how you can add
anything to what he already knows. But he will
be curious to learn why his own convictions
have not worked and why yours seem to work so
well. He may be an example of the truth that
faith alone is insufficient. To be vital,
faith must be accompanied by self sacrifice
and unselfish, constructive action. Let him
see that you are not there to instruct him in
religion. Admit that he probably knows more
about it than you do, but call to his attention
the fact that however deep his faith and
knowledge, he could not have applied it or
he would not drink. Perhaps your story will
help him see where he has failed to practice
the very precepts he knows so well. We
represent no particular faith or denomination.
We are dealing only with general principles
common to most denominations ..."

(10) From The Family Afterward

"... Alcoholics who have derided religious
people will be helped by such contacts. Being
possessed of a spiritual experience, the
alcoholic will find he has much in common
with these people, though he may differ with
them on many matters. If he does not argue
about religion, he will make new friends and
is sure to find new avenues of usefulness and
pleasure. He and his family can be a bright
spot in such congregations. He may bring new
hope and new courage to many a priest,
minister, or rabbi, who gives his all to
minister to our troubled world. We intend
the foregoing as a helpful suggestion only.
So far as we are concerned, there is nothing
obligatory about it. As non-denominational
people, we cannot make up others' minds for
them. Each individual should consult his own
conscience ..."

========

In just about every mention of "not religious"
it seems that Bill's context was that AA is
not affiliated with any specific religious
denomination and matters of religion are
solely up to each individual member to define
for themselves -- Bill very definitely was
not attempting to distance himself from
religion. Two more citations that might be
interesting concerning the Oxford Group and
its influence on the principles embodied in
the Steps.

In a July 14, 1949 letter to the Rev Sam
Shoemaker Bill W wrote "So far as I am
concerned, and Dr Smith too, the Oxford
Group seeded AA. It was our spiritual
wellspring at the beginning."

In AA Comes of Age (pg 39) Bill also wrote:
"Early AA got its ideas of self-examination,
acknowledgment of character defects,
restitution for harm done and working with
others straight from the Oxford Groups and
directly from Sam Shoemaker their former
leader in America and from nowhere else."

Cheers
Arthur

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++++Message 5096. . . . . . . . . . . . Amen in the 7th step prayer
From: tomikepete . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/8/2008 12:17:00 AM

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Given all the AA prayers, does anyone know
why the 7th step prayer is the only one which
ends with "amen" ?

Peace

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++++Message 5097. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Set A Side Prayer
From: tomper87 . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/6/2008 11:05:00 PM

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Another version of the prayer:

Set Aside Prayer:

"God please help me to set aside everything
I know about myself, the twelve steps, this
book, the meetings, my disease and you God,
so I may have an open mind and a new
experience with all of these things. Please
let me see the truth."

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++++Message 5098. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Fifth steps in early AA
From: Arthur Sheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/6/2008 10:56:00 PM

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The reference on the matter of Step 5 is in
the Big Book chapter Into Action (pgs 73 and
74) and The Little Red Book refers the reader
to those pages which state:

"... We must be entirely honest with somebody
if we expect to live long or happily in this
world. Rightly and naturally, we think well
before we choose the person or persons with
whom to take this intimate and confidential
step. Those of us belonging to a religious
denomination which requires confession must,
and of course, will want to go to the properly
appointed authority whose duty it is to
receive it. Though we have no religious
connection, we may still do well to talk with
someone ordained by an established religion.
We often find such a person quick to see and
understand our problem. Of course, we
sometimes encounter people who do not
understand alcoholics ..."

To me the emphasis is on: "... Rightly and
naturally, we think well before we choose the
person or persons with whom to take this
intimate and confidential step ..." I believe
the Big Book guidance is that you "can" do
Step 5 with someone outside of AA not that
you "should or must" do it with someone outside
of AA. I think over time this has primarily
evolved into taking the Step 5 with one's
sponsor. I personally know of several disasters
that occurred from members not wisely picking
someone outside of AA.

There weren't any formal Steps in early AA's
6-Step program. It was all word of mouth and
what got passed on varied quite a bit
depending on who was doing the passing.
That's one of the reasons why the Big Book
was written. The Mid-West (re Dr Bob and
Earl T) was far more influenced by the Oxford
Group than the NY members. What Earl T
describes in his story is part of the "Five
C's" of the Oxford Group (Confession). It also
seems that in the early days members were
walked through the Steps rather quickly.

While The Little Red Book is more explicit
and direct in recommending a "clergyman or
psychiatrist" that was the interpretation of
the 12 Steps based on the viewpoint of the
Nicolette Group in Minneapolis, MN not
necessarily AA as a whole. I'd strongly
recommend first doing the 5th Step with one's
sponsor. When I first did it, it was with my
sponsor and then I did it again with a Jesuit
priest who was an AA member. The priest was
my way of admitting it to God while receiving
the Roman Catholic sacrament of Confession
(today called Reconciliation).

Cheers
Arthur

PS - while on my soapbox I think there is
far too much emphasis in AA today on "Step
procedure" and it is at the expense of
"Step substance." Bill W gave us Steps "which
are suggested as a program of recovery" --
they are not the same as Moses giving us
Commandments.

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++++Message 5099. . . . . . . . . . . . Serenity Prayer faces challenge on
authorship
From: jblair101 . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/11/2008 1:05:00 PM

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By Laurie Goodstein
International Herald Tribune

Friday, July 11, 2008
http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/07/11/america/prayer.php

Generations of recovering alcoholics, soldiers, weary parents,
exploited workers and just about anybody feeling beaten down by life
have found solace in a short prayer that begins: "God grant me the
serenity to accept the things I cannot change."

Now the Serenity Prayer is about to endure a controversy over its
authorship that is likely to be anything but serene.

For more than 70 years, the composer was thought to be the Protestant
theologian Reinhold Niebuhr, one of modern Christianity's most
towering figures. Niebuhr, who died in 1971, said he was quite sure he
had written it, and his wife, Ursula, also a prominent theologian,
dated its composition to the early 1940s.

His daughter Elisabeth Sifton, a book editor and publisher, wrote a
book about the prayer in 2003 in which she described her father first
using it in 1943 in an "ordinary Sunday service" at a church in the
Massachusetts town of Heath.

Now, a law librarian at Yale, using new databases of archival
documents, has found newspaper clippings and a book from as far back
as 1936 that quote close versions of the prayer. The quotes are from
civic leaders all over the United States and are always,
interestingly, by women.

Some refer to the prayer as if it were a proverb, while others appear
to claim it as their own poetry. None of them attribute the prayer to
a particular source. And they never mention Niebuhr.

An article about the mystery of the prayer, by Fred Shapiro, associate
library director and lecturer at Yale Law School, who edited "The Yale
Book of Quotations," will be published next week in the Yale Alumni
Magazine, an independent bimonthly publication. It will be followed by
a rebuttal from Sifton.

Shapiro said in an interview: "Reinhold Niebuhr was a very honest
person who was very forthright and modest about his role in the
Serenity Prayer. My interpretation would be that he probably
unconsciously adapted it from something that he had heard or read."

But Sifton faults Shapiro's approach as computer-driven and deprived
of historical and theological context. In an interview, she said her
father traveled widely in the 1930s, preaching in college chapels and
to church groups and could have used the prayer then. She said she
fixed the date of its composition to 1943 in her book, "The Serenity
Prayer: Faith and Politics in Times of Peace and War," because she had
relied on her parents' recollections.

Sifton said the newly unearthed quotes were merely evidence that her
father's preaching had a broad impact.

And she took greatest umbrage at Shapiro's notion that the prayer was
so simple that it could have been written by almost anyone in any era.

"There is a kind of austerity and humility about this prayer," Sifton
said, "that is very characteristic of him and was in striking contrast
to the conventional sound of the American pastorate in the 1930s, who
were by and large optimistic, affirmative, hopeful."

The precise origins of the Serenity Prayer have always been wrapped in
a fog. Even in Niebuhr's lifetime, his authorship was challenged.

His response was typically modest. He was quoted in a magazine article
in 1950 as saying: "Of course, it may have been spooking around for
years, even centuries, but I don't think so. I honestly do believe
that I wrote it myself."

The version of events most often cited in biographies of Niebuhr is
that after he used the prayer in a sermon in rural Massachusetts, an
Episcopal priest asked for permission to print it in a booklet for the
armed forces in 1944.

Alcoholics Anonymous then embraced it, simplified some wording,
changed the pronouns and circulated it as a motto for its 12-step program.

Bartlett's Familiar Quotations attributed it to Niebuhr but gave the
date as 1934, perhaps citing an erroneous reference in an article in
the magazine of Alcoholics Anonymous, Shapiro said. But Ursula
Niebuhr, who died in 1997, wrote in a memorandum (which an assistant
for Shapiro saw in the Library of Congress) that her husband "may have
used it in his prayers" by 1934, but "it certainly was not then in
circulation."

A Niebuhr biographer, Charles Brown, was surprised to hear of the
early references. He said, "It is now well established beyond the
shadow of any doubt among knowledgeable and fair-minded people that
Niebuhr did compose it, probably in 1941 or '43."

Brown said that perhaps Sifton's theory was correct and that the
newspaper quotations were from people who heard Niebuhr speak the
prayer years before he wrote it down.

But, Shapiro argued, knowing that Niebuhr was so famous, why did none
of the people who cited the prayer in the clippings also cite the
theologian?

The artifacts that Shapiro unearthed dismayed the Reverend Gary
Dorrien, the Reinhold Niebuhr professor of social ethics at Union
Theological Seminary in New York, which was Niebuhr's scholarly home
for many years.

Dorrien said, "What has the ring of truth to me is that some of the
phrases in it, the gist of it, he heard or came into contact with in
some way that he wouldn't have remembered, since he's not a scholarly,
bookwormish person with habits of scholarly exactitude anyway."

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++++Message 5100. . . . . . . . . . . . Fr. Martin
From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/10/2008 6:37:00 PM

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Front-Page Story from June 29, 2008 Baltimore Sun.

His comeback was the worst-kept secret at Ashley.

After a six-month absence, an ailing Father Joseph Martin returned recently
to what has been called the Betty Ford Clinic of the East Coast - Father
Martin's Ashley. Arriving in his wheelchair, he waited for the applause and
standing ovation to yield before speaking to 80 patients at the addiction
treatment center he co-founded near Havre de Grace.

One more time, the 83-year-old priest spoke of the symptoms of sobriety -
the ways patients know they are getting better. Recognizing that everyone is
in pain. The return of one's self-esteem and humanity. No more living a lie.
Father Martin spoke of his own drinking, his own "island of pain and
self-hatred." He thanked everyone for their prayers. "I'm going to go home
shortly now. That took all the steam out of me."

This has been a milestone year for Joseph Martin. Together with his partner,
Mae Abraham, they watch over the addiction center they opened 25 years ago
this spring.

More than 30,000 people have been treated there, including supermodel Niki
Taylor, pro football player Thomas "Hollywood" Henderson, the late Michael
Kennedy, the son of Robert F. Kennedy, and the late former White House aide
Michael Deaver. Lynda Carter Altman, TV's former Wonder Woman and an Ashley
alum herself, performed before 540 guests who paid $250 a seat to attend a
silver anniversary gala last month.

Father Martin marked his own milestone this month: It was 50 years ago that
the young Baltimore priest entered treatment. He has congestive heart
failure now and endures dialysis three times weekly. His blood pressure
sinks dangerously low. Takes a week of energy to decide to belch, as Father
Martin says. Public appearances are seldom.

"I pray for him every day," says Mary Royals, 49, of Bethesda. "He has an
immense amount of compassion because he is one of us. He gave people back
their lives."

In 2003, Royals, once a serious binge drinker, spent a month at Ashley,
which is about the prettiest place for the ugly business of getting clean.
Bald eagles, wild turkeys and osprey inhabit the grounds of the former
estate of Sen. Millard Tydings of Maryland. While there's nothing idyllic
about detoxification, a patient's road to recovery is paved with creature
comforts at Ashley.

"At Ashley, I found people who had been in situations similar to mine. The
disease had no prejudices. It is a great equalizer, whether you are in the
public eye or not," Deaver wrote in his book, Behind the Scenes.

For $20,800 for 28 days, patients undergo a regiment of instruction,
therapy, fellowship and something about having to get up at 6 in the
morning. "This campus is routinely inspected by detection canines," says a
sign in the lobby of the nonprofit. The only permitted "contraband" is
candy. A media blackout is imposed; no cell phones, no BlackBerries, no TV -
except during Super Bowls and World Series. Sixty percent of the patients
are men, after all.

Until a few years ago, Father Martin regularly visited and welcomed patients
with his trademark: "The nightmare is over." He held court afternoons in the
sunny dining room, as patients gathered around.

To know Father Martin is to know his penguin joke: A police officer spots a
drunk walking down the street with a penguin. Tells the man to take the
penguin to the zoo where he belongs. The next day, the officer sees the same
drunk walking the same penguin. Thought I told you to take him to the zoo.
"I did," the drunk said. "He loved it. Today, we're going to the library."

The joke, emblematic of Father Martin's disarming approach to addiction, is
immortalized in Ashley's chapel, where a 1-inch figure of a penguin was
inserted in one of the stained-glass panels. The penguin is part of a tour
of Ashley, as are the hundreds of nametags stuck on the ceiling of a
waterfront gazebo by patients on their last day at the facility. Along the
fence line above the Chesapeake Bay, markers still remain for Molly and
Bonnie, Father Martin's Labs that once escorted patients on walks and
chronically retrieved balls.

Adorning the walls of Ashley's rooms, portraits of Father Martin and Mae
Abraham hang inseparably. Mae still speaks there every month, while Father
Martin has stayed home. He watches the news, waits for her return, and
steels himself against more dialysis.

"I live tired," he says.
But he's not alone.

At the Abraham home At Mae Abraham's Havre de Grace home in early June, no
one is enjoying the pool - too hot for that. Her manicured gardens feature
plants just high enough, as she points out, to avoid the urinary wrath of
the Labradors, which her 52-year-old son, Alex, field trains. The home was
built out in the back to make a bedroom for Father Martin. A crucifix hangs
over his crisply made bed, where a stuffed penguin hogs a pillow.

In the family room, Father Martin sits in what must be his
favorite chair. He's watching Fox News. I'm probably a McCain man,
he says. Mae sits behind him on the couch and consults the man's biography,
One
Step Closer: The Life and Work of Father Joseph C. Martin. She knows their
narrative by heart but the dates get fuzzy. In fact, it was 1958 when Father
Martin was admitted to a treatment center. Ordained a decade earlier, he had
discovered his taste for alcohol that same year during a Thanksgiving dinner
with fellow priests.

"There are people who have to acquire a taste for gin, but I didn't - I
loved it immediately. I had two or three doubles that day," he said in his
biography. His drinking escalated. "It never occurred to me that perhaps
there was something odd about a priest walking toward a garbage dump in the
middle of the afternoon carrying two suitcases filled with clanking
bottles."

It occurred to his superiors, who noticed Father Martin's careless teaching
habits and troubling behavior. In 1956, he was admitted to a psychiatric
ward of a California hospital. No one suspected alcoholism, so when Father
Martin left the hospital appearing healthier and happy, he also returned to
his double martinis and drinking shots of vodka from bottles he kept in his
bathroom. By 1958, Joe Martin could no longer keep his drinking and behavior
under control, much less a secret. The Archdiocese of Baltimore ordered him
into treatment at Guest House, a Michigan treatment center for clergy.

There, he was exposed to the tenants of Bill Wilson's Alcoholics Anonymous
program. Wilson, a Wall Street businessman ruined by drink, had developed a
12-step, faith-based program that treated alcoholism as a disease and
stressed staying sober and helping others achieve sobriety. Father Martin
saved his notes from the lectures and conversations during his time at Guest
House. He also got sober.

In the 1960s, Father Martin distilled Wilson's 12 steps into literally a
blackboard talk. He made the rounds of AA meetings with his direct,
self-referencing lectures on addiction. The U.S. armed services, which had
begun mandatory addiction training for servicemen, used Martin's 90-minute
Chalk Talk on Alcohol, as did private businesses and rehab centers. Poorly
lit and single-angled, the training films featured one bespectacled priest
and one chalk board. "No singing or dancing," as the host says. (The films
have gained a new audience on YouTube.)

We alcoholics drink because we can't NOT drink.

I must not make myself a part of the destruction of someone I love.

Drug your conscience and see where your behavior goes.

What are you worth?

But why did he drink?

"Oh, a thousand reasons," Father Martin says. "The point is I crossed the
line until I could not NOT drink."

Growing up in a Hampden rowhouse, the seven Martin children were exposed to
drinking. Father Martin's 81-year-old brother, Edward Martin, says their
father drank on Friday, payday. The rest of the week, James Martin, a
machinist by trade, was fine, but Friday nights were not pleasant. Three of
the four boys developed drinking problems.

"They say children of an alcoholic get used to the idea of drinking," says
Edward Martin, who lives in Georgia. He was spared the attraction. "I never
had the money to buy the stuff."

His older brother, Joseph, was clearly the popular one, winner of oratory
contests at Loyola High School, the gift of gab. He grew up to be a devoted
and enormously generous priest - with a quirk to his personality, his only
living brother says. In a crowd, Joseph dominated the conversation with his
humor, "as if he felt inadequate to socially bond with people or be
comfortable in their presence unless he was entertaining them. He doesn't
converse; he gives a humorous lecture."

In 1964, Father Martin crossed paths with Lora Mae Abraham, a mother and
housewife from Havre de Grace. Her drinking was out of control and
threatened to upend her marriage to Tommy Abraham, the owner of a Greek
restaurant in Aberdeen. Days after a lost weekend at Rehoboth Beach, Del.,
Abraham agreed to attend a lecture at the Johns Hopkins University. Former
Iowa Gov. Harold Hughes was to talk about his alcoholism. Filling in for the
governor, however, was a Catholic priest from Baltimore. Mae looked for the
exit.

Hello, I'm Joe Martin, and I'm an alcoholic. ...
Then, the Catholic priest told her, a Southern Baptist, that she wasn't to
blame
for her drinking. That she wasn't evil.

"He removed the shame from me," she says. "It changed my life forever on."

A lifelong friendship and partnership were born. Mae took everyone she knew
with a drinking problem to hear Father Martin's chalk talks. But despite his
sobriety and popularity, he was suffering another crisis by the end of the
1960s.

Assigned to St. Mary's Seminary on Paca Street, Father Martin no longer had
any assignments or classes, nothing to do anymore. He felt useless. He
stayed in his darkened bedroom and became increasingly reclusive and
depressed. He turned to Mae. "I'm 45 years old, and all I have to show for
my life is the blackboard talk," he told her on the phone in 1970.

They had all become close friends - Father Martin, Mae, her son, Alex, then
14, and Tommy - Father Martin especially liked the babaghanouj Tommy made at
his restaurant. So, it wasn't unusual when Tommy and Mae asked Father Martin
if he would like to come out to their home in the country and spend a few
days resting.

That was 38 years ago.

"He's the man who came to dinner, and he's still eating," she says.
He moved in with his German shepherd, Casey. Mae and the dog did not get
along, so she sent both dog and priest to canine-training class. That got
Father Martin driving and out of the house again. Next, her house guest
needed, well, a job. Father Martin went to work for the state of Maryland's
new Division of Alcoholism Control. Mae suggested that he also travel the
country to give his chalk talks. They started their own production company,
Kelly Productions, which offered nearly 40 Father Martin film titles. (In
2007, Mae and Father Martin sold the rights to his books and films.)

In 1978, Mae suggested they open a treatment center.

"You're going to die, and everything you have done will die with you," she
told him.

After an initial $1 million grant, it would take another seven years to
raise enough money to open Ashley - named for Mae's father, the Rev. Arthur
Ashley. In 1983, the 22-bed facility opened on Oakington Farm, the former
estate of Millard Tydings, a native son of Havre de Grace and U.S. senator
from Maryland. Six staff members hovered and fussed over all five patients.
Expenses were paid from the film profits. And over much time, Ashley built a
national reputation as it grew donation by donation, building by building.

Father Martin became a celebrity - his picture was taken with former first
ladies Betty Ford and Nancy Reagan. In 1993, he was invited to the Vatican.
Father Martin, then 65, helped celebrate Mass with Pope John Paul II. "The
most profound experience of my life," he says.

Before he left, the priest from Harford County handed the pontiff a brochure
from Ashley.

Retirement years In retirement, Mae Abraham has become Father Martin's
caretaker. On days when his blood pressure plummets, she props his feet up
and
feeds him broth and monitors his numbers. In January, he was near death in
an area hospital. Last rites were given. Mae rushed to the hospital and
insisted he be placed on a respirator. There had been confusion about his
living
will, she said.

One recent afternoon, Mae, who has been sober 45 years, steps outside to
give a tour of her garden, but needs to get back inside. She doesn't like to
leave Father alone (she has never called him Joseph). At night, her son,
Alex, helps Father Martin into bed and wonders if he'll still be with them
in the morning. You just don't know on those dialysis days, Mae says.

"He's afraid of leaving this place," she says. "But I told him I made him a
promise a long time ago. As long as I'm alive, you'll be here."

In the family room, Father Martin turns the sound down to Fox News. As a Sun
photographer takes pictures, he whispers, "You can use some of these
pictures to keep the mice out of the basement." One of the black Labs lopes
over with a toy in his mouth. Just like the Labs years ago at Ashley.

"Like everything, I miss it."

No blackboard lecture, just a tired and sick man whose simple and smart
words helped a lot of sick people while giving him something very much to do
with his life.

"Mae and I know what we've done. We stand before God with it," says Joseph
Martin of Father Martin's Ashley.

"And if they mess it up and don't keep our philosophy," Mae Abraham adds,
"we'll come back and haunt the hell out of
them."

They aren't kidding.

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++++Message 5101. . . . . . . . . . . . 400+ AA History & Oldtimer CDs &
DVDs
From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/10/2008 6:45:00 PM

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www.justloveaudio.com has just added over 400 AA History and Oldtimer CDs
and DVDs to our store. Many of these Oldtimers came to AA in the 1930s and
1940s. To see the CD list:

1-Please go to
http://justloveaudio.com/audio_store.php?audio=aa
2-The "Type" field is a drop down screen, pick "History/Oldtimers"
3-After choosing "History/Oldtimers", click "Search"
4-Scroll down to see the full list of Oldtimer and AA History CDs available

We also have AA History DVDs in our recovery bookstore at
http://justloveaudio.com/book_store.php?cat_id=2

Thank you for allowing us to be of service & God bless.

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++++Message 5102. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Fifth steps in early AA
From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/7/2008 6:34:00 AM

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From Laurie Andrews <jennylaurie1@hotmail.com>
(jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com)

Is it recorded anywhere when, where and with whom Dr Bob took the fifth
step?
"Pass It On" recounts that the morning of his last drink, after Bill gave
him
"one 'goofball' and a single bottle of beer, to curb the shakes" Bob set off
to
perform a surgical procedure. Hours later he returned home, having driven
around to his creditors and others to make amends. So it seems he did not
take
the fifth step after his last drink; did he take the first five steps with
Bill
in the previous few weeks, while Bill was lodging with him? Also, how many
fifth
steps did Bill take? AA literature relates two occasions: in his story in
the
Big Book Bill wrote, "(After leaving hospital) my schoolmate (Ebby) visited
me,
and I fully acquainted him with my problems and deficiencies. We made a list
of
people I had hurt or toward whom I felt resentment. I expressed my entire
willingness to approach these individuals, admitting my wrong (steps four
through nine)." Then, "Pass It On" records of Bill's first meeting with Fr
Ed
Dowling, "That evening, Father Ed began sharing with Bill an understanding
of
the spiritual life that then and ever after seemed to speak to Bill's
condition
(interesting Quaker phrase! - see George Fox, "There is one, even Christ
Jesus,
who can speak to thy condition"). Bill, author of the Fifth Step, would
later
characterize that evening as the night he took his Fifth Step... he
unburdened
himself of his commissions and omissions, all of which had lain heavily on
his
mind, and of which he had found, until then, no way to speak...." (Surely
that
was a Step Ten?)

- - - -

From: "terry walton" <twalton@3gcinc.com>
(twalton at 3gcinc.com)

We have many examples in the Big Book of people outside of AA
"hearing our story" or 5th steps.

The first is Bill in his own words:

BB pg 13:3 "My schoolmate visited me, and I fully acquainted him
with my problems and deficiencies."

We also know this done again in AA Comes of Age when Bill meets Father
Ed Dowling.

Both men outside of AA.

In the book Alcoholics Anonymous it suggests using the properly
appointed people.

The list of "proper people" suggested is: page 74:0

1. Those of us belonging to a religious denomination which requires
confession must, and of course, will want to go to the properly
appointed authority whose duty it is to receive it.
2. Though we have no religious connection, we may still do well to
talk with someone ordained by an established religion.
3. Perhaps our doctor or
4. or psychologist will be the person.
5. It may be one of our own family
6. we cannot disclose anything to our wives or our parents which will
hurt them and make them unhappy. (this is saying a family member or wife
is a good candidate as long as what is shared is not at their expense)

The directions for "whom" is to hear this pretty clear:

Notwithstanding the great necessity for discussing ourselves with
someone, it may be one is so situated that there is no suitable person
available. If that is so, this step may be postponed, only, however, if we
hold
ourselves in complete readiness to go through with it at the first
opportunity.
We say this because we are very anxious that we talk to the right person. It
is
important that he be able to keep a
confidence; that he fully understand and approve what we are driving at;

A priest, minister, rabbi, which their duty is to receive this, under
the protection of the right of confession these conversations are
protected by Church law. A doctor or psychologist or attorney all are good
suggestions for the same reason, client confidentiality.

I find it petty convincing the men that wrote this, expected a man or
woman to use a religious person "whose duty it is to
receive it. since it is suggested not once, but twice. And backed up
again shortly with the 11th step suggestion of "make use of what
they offer".

Terry Walton

- - - -

From: Tommy Hickcox <cometkazie1@cox.net>
(cometkazie1 at cox.net)

We have Earl Treat's story of doing the early steps in his story "He Sold
Himself Short."The specific passage is on p. 292 in the Third Edition and p.
263
in the current edition.Technically, though, this wasn't a Fifth Step as the
program had only six steps at the time.He did it with Dr. Bob. No mention is
made of going through the steps with someone outside the program.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

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++++Message 5103. . . . . . . . . . . . Big Book concordance index history?
From: diazeztone . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/9/2008 9:56:00 PM

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I am in Dallas for a while and attending a
group which is studying the book using the
big book study guide by the primary purpose
group of Dallas. (available online also)

Is there a concordance index of all the
history things in the book as they happen
chapter by chapter and line by line?

Example today we are doing the Dr.s Opinion
and at the end they were wondering who the
two men were mentioned at the end of that
chapter. I should know but need to look them
up.

Have all the historical references been listed
line by line paragraph by paragraph??

LD P sober 13 years since june 15 1995
editor aabibliography.com

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++++Message 5104. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Amen in the 7th step prayer
From: grault . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/10/2008 10:53:00 PM

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Or why the 7th Step prayer speaks to God in
terms of "you" and "your" but the 3d Step
prayer speaks in terms of "Thee" and "Thy"?

- - - -

In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "tomikepete"
<mike_petersen@...> wrote:
>
> Given all the AA prayers, does anyone know
> why the 7th step prayer is the only one which
> ends with "amen" ?
>

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++++Message 5105. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Serenity Prayer faces challenge
on authorship
From: James Bliss . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/11/2008 8:40:00 PM

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The article appears to be very incomplete.
What article (at least one or two) and what
book did Shapiro find. Seems that there
should be the ability to verify the sources
one way or the other and provide additional
background as to who, what and where.

Jim

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++++Message 5106. . . . . . . . . . . . Serenity Prayer article by Fred
Shapiro and response by Niebuhr''s daughter
From: jblair101 . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/12/2008 3:03:00 PM

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As a follow-up to the Serenity Prayer news
column posted yesterday, here are two links
of interest:

"Who wrote the Serenity Prayer?"
by Fred R. Shapiro, Yale University
http://www.yalealumnimagazine.com/issues/2008_07/serenity.html

"It takes a master to make a masterpiece"
by Elisabeth Sifton (Niebuhr's daughter responds.)
http://www.yalealumnimagazine.com/issues/2008_07/serenity.html#sifton

John

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++++Message 5107. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Serenity Prayer faces challenge
on authorship
From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/13/2008 7:12:00 PM

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I wonder when Shapiro discovered this, particularly in view of the fact that
posts from this
list (see mine of Dec 6, 2007) do come up on Google searches.

Facts are facts, but I think his interpretation of the evidence may go a
little
too far.
Comments interspersed:
>
>
>
> By Laurie Goodstein
> International Herald Tribune
>
> Friday, July 11, 2008
> http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/07/11/america/prayer.php

<snip>
>
> For more than 70 years, the composer was thought to be the Protestant
> theologian Reinhold Niebuhr, one of modern Christianity's most
> towering figures. Niebuhr, who died in 1971, said he was quite sure he
> had written it, and his wife, Ursula, also a prominent theologian,
> dated its composition to the early 1940s.

Niebuhr did not say he was "quite sure" he had written it. His daughter is
the
one who is
emphatically sure of everything including exact dates. When the editor of a
Lutheran
publication asked Niebuhr to comment on doubts as to his authorship, Niebuhr
pointed
out that great minds of the past, including Socrates and even Jesus, had
made
use of older
material (he went on at some length) but that he did think he had written
the
prayer in its
present form. In other words he seemed to be hedging a bit.

Niebuhr's father was a minister who immigrated from Germany as a young man.
If
Niebuhr
translated something he had heard only from his father and only in German,
his
recollection that he wrote it himself would be reasonable or at least
understandable.

<snip>
>
> Some refer to the prayer as if it were a proverb, while others appear
> to claim it as their own poetry. None of them attribute the prayer to
> a particular source. And they never mention Niebuhr.

<snip>
>
> Brown said that perhaps Sifton's theory was correct and that the
> newspaper quotations were from people who heard Niebuhr speak the
> prayer years before he wrote it down.
>
> But, Shapiro argued, knowing that Niebuhr was so famous, why did none
> of the people who cited the prayer in the clippings also cite the
> theologian?

This point seems weak to me. Of course, I haven't seen the original article,
but
I strongly
suspect that his 1936 example of the prayer is the same 1936 one that I have
seen. It is
nothing but a caption to a photograph of Mildred Pinkerton, the Executive
Secretary of the
Syracuse YWCA, and says "Quotes the prayer, 'God grant us the courage to
change
what
must be changed, the serenity to accept what cannot be changed, and the
insight
to tell
one from the other.'" and that her remarks were delivered at the annual
meeting
of the
YWCA. The reporter was only writing a caption for a photo, so it is
impossible
to know
whether the speaker mentioned an author.

The other 2 examples I saw were not quite as brief, but in general I think
it is
hard to
conclude anything from the fact that Niebuhr's name is NOT mentioned in
association with
the prayer until after 1943, because it often depends on what a reporter
feels
is important,
and Niebuhr was not so famous that a random reporter would necessarily have
known
about him. The article seems like a tempest in a teapot.

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++++Message 5108. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 400+ AA History & Oldtimer CDs &
DVDs
From: sobrietytalks . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/12/2008 3:55:00 PM

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There is also a great collection of historical
Alcoholics Anonymous talks at www.sobrietytalks.com

There's a specific category for AA HISTORY
RELATED TALKS & RECORDINGS MADE PRIOR TO 1970.

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++++Message 5109. . . . . . . . . . . . Tom Uzzell''s Pay?
From: schaberg43 . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/13/2008 9:24:00 AM

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I have seen references on the Web to the fact
that Tom Uzzell was paid either $375 or $380
to do the editing of the Big Book.

Can anyone supply me with an original source
for this piece of information - or is it just
another one of the unsubstantiated "facts"
about AA that float around the Internet?

Old Bill

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++++Message 5110. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Fifth steps in early AA
From: Arthur Sheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/11/2008 9:41:00 PM

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Dear Laurie and Terry

With all due respect, you are advocating
revisionist speculation not AA history.
AAHistoryLovers is supposed to focus on
fact-based information as opposed to
editorial-based imagination. Bill W sobered
up in December 1934. Dr Bob sobered up in
June 1935. The 12 Steps were first drafted
in December 1938.

When Bill W sobered up there was no such thing
even remotely approaching the notion of doing
the equivalent of a "5th Step" with "people
outside of AA." There was no AA. The
"schoolmate" who visited Bill in the hospital
was Ebby T. Bill considered him to be his
sponsor throughout his life (even though Ebby
had his difficulties staying sober). The idea
of alluding to Ebby as "people outside AA" is
absurd.

Bill W met Father Dowling in December 1940 at
the 24th St Club in NY City. He reputedly was
Bill W's "spiritual sponsor" throughout his
life. Although he was not an alcoholic, to
portray Fr Dowling as "people outside AA" is
also absurd. He started AA in St Louis, MO.

When Dr Bob had his last drink there was no
such thing as "Steps." Both of you seem to be
attempting to retrofit what exists today to
something that didn't exist back then.

Dr Bob joined the Oxford Group in 1933. This
was approximately two years before he met Bill W.
During the first few years of its existence,
the AA Fellowship was affiliated with the
Oxford Group in both NY and Akron. Core
Oxford Group principles consisted of the
"Four Absolutes" of honesty, unselfishness,
purity and love - the "Five C's" (confidence,
confession, conviction, conversion and
continuance) and the "Five Procedures"
(1. Give in to God, 2. Listen to God's
direction, 3. Check guidance, 4. Restitution
and 5. Sharing for witness and confession).

Dr Bob would certainly not have been a stranger
to practicing the principle of "Confession."
Henrietta Sieberling organized an OG meeting
at the home of T Henry and Clarace Williams
in Akron specifically to help Dr Bob with his
drinking. Dr Bob confessed openly about his
drinking but could not stop.

The OG never had anything that they called or
considered to be Steps. The idea and evolution
of Steps derived in the latter 1930s from what
was called the "alcoholic squads" of the OG
in Akron and NY. It initially took the form
of a word-of-mouth 6-Step program. Various
versions of the 6 Steps can be found in
(1) Earl T's Big Book Story "He Sold Himself
Short" pg 263 4th edition (2) "AA Comes of
Age" pg 160 and "Pass It On" pg 197 and
(3) a July 1953 Grapevine Article titled
"A Fragment of History" which can also be
found in "The Language of the Heart" pg 200.
In various forms, up to December 1938, the
equivalent of what later became Steps 5 and 10
were stated as either: (1) "Confession" or
(2) "We confessed or shared our shortcomings
with another person in confidence" or (3) "We
got honest with another person, in confidence."
There was no "admitted to God" and "to
ourselves."

It may sound like AA heresy, but the Big Book
is not the be-all and end-all on the Steps.
When Bill W wrote the bulk of the Big Book
basic text in 1938 he was in his fourth year
of sobriety, there were approximately 100
members and there were two groups. When Bill
wrote the 12&12 in 1953 he was in his 19th
year of sobriety, there were approximately
6,000 groups and 128,000 members. That's a
great deal of accumulated experience over
time. In the 12&12, on the 5th Step, Bill W
suggests:

"Our next problem will be to discover the
person in whom we are to confide. Here we
ought to take much care, remembering that
prudence is a virtue which carries a high
rating. Perhaps we shall need to share with
this person facts about ourselves which no
others ought to know. We shall want to speak
with someone who is experienced, who not
only has stayed dry but has been able to
surmount other serious difficulties.
Difficulties, perhaps, like our own. This
person may turn out to be one's sponsor, but
not necessarily so. If you have developed a
high confidence in him, and his temperament
and problems are close to your own, then such
a choice will be good. Besides, your sponsor
already has the advantage of knowing something
about your case."

Cheers
Arthur

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++++Message 5111. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Big Book concordance index
history?
From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/14/2008 11:10:00 AM

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I believe the second full paragraph pertains
to Hank Parkhurst who would have been two
years plus sober at the time the Doctor's
Opinion article was written.

The Third full paragraph is about Fitz Mayo
who sobered up at nearly the same time as
Hank.

Bob S.

- - - -

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of diazeztone
Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 9:56 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Big Book concordance index history?

Example today we are doing the Dr.s Opinion
and at the end they were wondering who the
two men were mentioned at the end of that
chapter. I should know but need to look them
up.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 5112. . . . . . . . . . . . Anniversary of the Oxford Group June
27
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/14/2008 12:45:00 PM

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From John Barleycorn <yakstark@msn.com>
(yakstark at msn.com)
http://hindsfoot.org/barruth.html
http://hindsfoot.org/barright.html
http://hindsfoot.org/barmole.html

The Apology That Launched a Million Amends

June 27th, 2008, will mark the 100th
anniversary of Frank Buchman's Spiritual
Awakening – one that directly linked him
to the cofounders of AA

He gave everything he had to establishing a
shelter for homeless boys in the slums of
Philadelphia. The shelters success surpassed
his budget and the six-member board of
directors insisted that he cut the amount of
food being given to his charges. He quit
instead of cutting back. Resentment consumed
him. His family despaired that he might not
come to his senses. His work was destroyed by
what he saw as the shortsightedness of others.
His health was well past the breaking point.

'Everywhere I went, I took me with me,' he
later said. During a trip to recuperate in
Europe, he exhausted the funds his father gave
him and existed on the kindness of his family
and the generosity of acquaintances. Tired and
dejected he went to an Evangelical Conference
in Keswick, England, hoping to connect with
F.B. Meyer, a famous minister he knew, for
spiritual help. Meyer was not in attendance;
another plan gone awry.

June 27, 1908, thirty year-old Frank Buchman,
a Pennsylvanian Lutheran minister, walked into
an afternoon service with 17 other people to
hear Jessie Penn Lewis preach on the cross of
Christ. And then it happened.

As Buchman sat in that Chapel, 'There was a
moment of spiritual peak of what God could do
for me. I was made a new man. My hatred was
gone ... I knew I had to write six letters to
those men I hated.'

'I am writing,' declared Buchman, 'to tell you
that I have harbored an unkind feeling toward
you -- at times I conquered it but it always
came back. Our views may differ but as
brothers we must love. I write to ask your
forgiveness and to assure that I love you and
trust by God's grace I shall never more speak
unkindly or disparagingly of you.'

Those letters of amends spawned a revolution
in Frank Buchman, a revolution that led to the
birth of Alcoholics Anonymous.

That evening, Frank was introduced to a young
Cambridge man, who upon hearing Buchman's tale
of moral regeneration made a decision to change
his own life. As Buchman described it, 'This
was the first fellow who I knew that I had
ever brought face to face with that central
experience.' For the next half century Buchman
dedicated his life to demonstrating that an
experience of God was available to anyone at
any time, regardless of race, religion, class
or nationality.

From England, Frank returned to the United
States where he went to work as the YMCA
director at Penn State University. There he
had a profound effect on campus life, due in
part to the conversion of the campus bootlegger,
who during a trip to Toronto with Frank and a
group of students from Penn State, made a
decision to change his life. After having Frank
help him by writing an amends letter to his
wife, the bootlegger never drank again and
went around the world with Frank talking about
his change.

Frank Buchman described the four years that he
spent at Penn State as the laboratory in which
he developed a practical program of action and
learned how to have honest conversations that
led people to make decisions to change their
lives.

The formula he developed was:

1. The sharing of our sins and temptations
with another Christian life given to God, and
to use sharing as witness to help others, still
unchanged, to recognize and acknowledge their
sins.

2. Surrender of our life, past, present, and
future, into God's keeping and direction.

3. Restitution to all whom we have wronged
directly or indirectly.

4. Listening to, accepting, relying on God's
guidance and carrying it out in everything we
do or say, great or small.

Sound familiar?

The application of this course of action
revolutionized the spiritual life of the
campus, and its success brought Christian
evangelists from all over the world to find
out what was happening on a backwater
campus that had been paralyzed by strife.

After Penn State, Frank went to China in 1917
where an honest conversation with a young
Sam Shoemaker helped Sam to tell him, 'I have
been a pious fraud, pretending to serve God
but actually keeping all the trump cards in
my own hands. Now I've told Him how sorry I am,
and I trust you'll forgive me for harboring
ill will against you. This sprang up the moment
you used that word sin!'

Buchman said that he freely forgave him. 'Now
what's the next step?' Shoemaker asked. The
next step was making amends to Sam's Bible
study class. The trouble was, Shoemaker told
his Chinese students, he disliked China. That
admission produced such a profound spiritual
experience in Shoemaker that it led to his
working closely with Buchman for the next
twenty-one years and brought the revolution
of 'First Century Christianity' (later known
as the Oxford Group) to people worldwide.

The message of personal revolution was
transmitted by one 'informed Christian' sharing
with another and by inviting people to 'house
parties.' If you have ever attended an AA
convention or round up you have experienced an
Oxford Group house party. Speakers were brought
in from a variety of places to share their
experience, strength and hope in both large
speaker meetings and small special interest
meetings. Men would tell their stories in
men's meetings; women in women's; there were
even forums for drug addicts, overeaters, and
drunks. At these gatherings, both speakers
and experienced members would be available
for 'personal interviews' where sharing and
surrender could take place. Then people would
be encouraged to make restitution and have a
daily 'quiet time' to receive inspiration on
how to conduct their lives.

When he was pressed for a definition of sin,
Buchman said, 'What is a sin for one person may
not be a sin for another. The true definition
of sin is that it is something that separates
you from God or from your fellows.'

In 1922, Jim Newton, a young salesman with a
taste for fast living, followed a group of
attractive young women into a hotel ballroom
thinking they were going to a dance. To his
dismay he found himself in an Oxford Group
house party at the Toy Town Tavern in
Winchengton, Massachusetts, where he heard
a message that changed his life. Buchman
referred Newton to Shoemaker who helped Newton
take stock of his life, surrender, make
restitution, and start to live a 'guided life.'
If you wish to know the Oxford Group technique
of guidance read pages 85-87 in the book
Alcoholics Anonymous.

A few years later, Jim Newton was trying to
help Bud F., the alcoholic son of his employer,
Harvey F., to change. Unable to help his
friend, Jim introduced Bud to his mentor,
Samuel Shoemaker. Sam, who had a remarkable
gift bringing people to make a decision, went
through the process with Bud who immediately
lost his obsession to drink, made amends to
his father and wife, and returned to the good
graces of his family.

Harvey F. was so impressed with the change in
his son that he convinced his fellow industri-
alists in Akron, Ohio, to help underwrite an
Oxford Group house party held in January 1933
at the Mayflower Hotel. Buchman and his team
were welcomed by the Rev. Walter Tunks, a
close friend of the F. family; also in
attendance were Henrietta Seiberling and
T. Henry and Clarace Williams who were to
become the founders of the West Hills meeting
of the Oxford Group in Akron.

Also in 1933, Shoemaker's ministry at Calvary
Church in New York City's Gramercy Park was
a hub of Oxford Group activity. There were
Oxford Group meetings held three times a week
at Calvary Church where people shared the
life changes they had discovered from applying
the Oxford Group principles. He also founded
the Calvary Mission, which was a hostel for
indigent alcoholic men.

Many important families had ties to this
Calvary Church, among them the H. family whose
eldest son Rowland was described by Bill W.
as 'a business man who had ability, good
sense and high character ... who had
floundered from one sanitarium to another.'
Rowland had returned from Europe after another
attempt to get his life in order after consult-
ing with Dr. Carl Jung. Rowland was drinking
and going to Oxford Group meetings at Calvary
Church. Among the people whom he met at
Calvary was Vic Kitchen, author of I Was a
Pagan (published in 1934), which described
his release from alcoholism, drug addiction,
and 'anything that gave me pleasure, power
or applause' in the Oxford Group. While on a
business trip to Detroit, Rowland read the
book, identified at depth, and as Shoemaker
said, 'had a change right there on the train.'
Rowland stopped drinking, reconciled with
his family, made restitution for questionable
business dealings, became active with the
Oxford Group businessmen'
s team, spoke at
meetings and encouraged others to find what
he had found.

One of the many people Rowland touched was an
old childhood friend, Edwin 'Ebby' T., who was
about to be locked up as a chronic inebriate.
Rowland, whose alcohol problem was well known,
convinced the judge to release Ebby into his
care. Two weeks later, Ebby was speaking at
Oxford Group meetings around Vermont, and after
a couple of weeks with Rowland (who had all of
six months in the group), the freshly sober
Ebby moved into Calvary Mission in New York
City and became active there.

Sober six weeks, Ebby was inspired to find
another old school friend, Bill W., who was
known to be in awful shape. Bill could not get
the change in Ebby out of his mind for he knew
his friend was a hopeless drunk like himself,
yet was sober. A few days after that, Bill
went to see Ebby at the Calvary Mission, gave
an impassioned, albeit drunken testimony from
the podium and soon after landed in Townes
Hospital. Ebby visited him there and
reacquainted Bill with the steps of the
Oxford Group whereupon Bill had his profound
white light experience, lost his compulsion to
drink and was seized with a desire to pass on
his experience to others.

When Bill was released, he and Lois immediately
started attending Oxford Group meetings at
Calvary Church and had frequent contact with
Sam Shoemaker. Lois said that they went to a
minimum of three meetings a week and attended
house parties during the first three years of
Bill's sobriety.

Six months after sobering up, Bill went to
Akron, Ohio, on a business venture that failed.
When he found himself about to enter the bar
at the same Mayflower Hotel where the Oxford
Group had met, he started searching for an to
help. That moment of desperation led him to
the Rev. Walter Tunks and ultimately to
Henrietta Seiberling who knew just the man.

A local proctologist, who thought he was a
closet drinker, had been attending the West
Hill Oxford Group meeting for two years with
his wife, his problem becoming progressively
worse. The Doctor later described his
impression of the West Hills Group, 'I was
thrown in with a crowd of people ....
I sensed that they had something I did not
have, from which I might readily profit. I
learned that it was something of a spiritual
nature, which did not appeal to me very much,
but I thought it could do no harm.'

Bill W. met with Bob S. (lovingly referred to
as Dr. Bob) on Mother's Day 1935. Bob stopped
drinking abruptly. Though he accepted Bill's
description of alcoholism as a fatal illness
and the Oxford Group steps as the solution,
Bob believed that making restitution to those
he had harmed would destroy his practice and
put his family further at risk.

A short time later, Bob drank again and was
completely demoralized. On the way to perform
a surgery, Bill steadied his friend's hand
with a bottle of beer and a 'goofball.'
Before entering the hospital, Bob told Bill,
'I am going to go through with it.' That
afternoon Bob did not return home. His wife,
Anne, and Bill were filled with dread that
Bob had gone on another binge. When Dr. Bob
returned late that night, he told his
frightened loved ones that he had been making
restitution to people to whom he had been
too afraid to admit his alcoholism. Bob S.
never took another drink.

AA's anniversary is not the day Bill W.
stopped drinking, nor the day that he met
Dr. Bob, but the day that Bob stopped
drinking and made his amends.

From 100 years ago in Keswick, to 73 years ago
in Akron, to this very moment; women and men
are proving the validity of their own personal
spiritual awakening by making amends for their
past wrongs, making restitution and rectifying
their errors.

Frank Buchman's metamorphosis was remarkable.
He developed a program for personal change
that affected homes and nations. It is a
practical program of action using the four
standards of absolute honesty, purity,
unselfishness and love. Over the past one
hundred years, Buchman's vision has been
transmitted under different names: First
Century Christian Movement, the Oxford Group,
Moral Re-Armament, and since 2001, Initiatives
of Change, which continues to heal the wounds
of history by building trust across the
world's divides.

Without Frank Buchman, those of us in today's
many anonymous programs would have no 12 steps
and no freedom from bondage. His spiritual
awakening and the action that followed indeed
launched a million amends and produced many
millions of transformed lives.

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++++Message 5113. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Big Book concordance index
history?
From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/14/2008 1:43:00 PM

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Please go to:

http://justloveaudio.com/resources.php?cat_id=4

& click on "Big Book Name and Date References."

http://justloveaudio.com/resources/Assorted/Big_Book_Name_and_Date_Reference
s.pd\

f [18]

Also, Cliff B. & the Primary Purpose Group
in Dallas is already aware of this resource.

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++++Message 5114. . . . . . . . . . . . Ignatia''s birthplace PHOTOS
From: Fiona Dodd . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/13/2008 12:05:00 PM

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PHOTOS: http://hindsfoot.org/ignatia1.html

This morning, I stood in the ruins of the
birthplace of Sr Ignatia in the company of my
old AA buddy Murdy O'B whose detective work
over the past year has been extraordinary to
say the least. We have always felt there was
something erroneous in regards Shanvalley,
Ballyheane being given as her birthplace.
Firstly all family records were in the church
in Castlebar and yet there was a church in
Ballyheane. Secondly there were no folk
memories of the family and folk memories go
back a long, long time in Ireland. Thirdly,
with such large Irish families there had to
be some family connection left behind.

So many a night on our way to and from meetings
we discussed it and last year Murdy spotted a
death notice in the paper one day which stated
Shanvalley, Burren and the name of the deceased
was a member of the Neary family and Ignatia's
mother was Barbara Neary. The registering
church for Shanvalley, Burren is Castlebar
and the pieces began to fall into place.
Murdy took a trip up to Shanvalley and it's
a townland populated by Neary's and he was
shown what is known to this day as Gavin's
Field and the ruins of the house still standing
there. The extended Neary family still live
there and one member in her 80's shared many
a memory.

It was a strange feeling standing there this
morning after an AA meeting and gazing around
imagining what it was like at the end of the
1800's. The boreen to the houses there was
only paved in the 1980's and along with the
ruins of Gavin's house stand the ruins of
many more bearing witness to the emigration
which was a fact of life here in the west of
Ireland for so long.

Fiona

<fionadodd@eircom.net>
(fionadodd at eircom.net)

PHOTOS: http://hindsfoot.org/ignatia1.html

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++++Message 5115. . . . . . . . . . . . Publication dates of AA pamphlets
current and obsolete
From: JOHN WIKELIUS . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/14/2008 10:40:00 PM

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I am seeking information regardng the date when
the original pamphlet was published, in the
case of the standard AA published pamphlets.

Some of my older pamphlets do not have a date
of origination.

I am putting together a display of AA pamphlets
and showing the changes over the years.

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++++Message 5116. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Serenity Prayer faces challenge
on authorship
From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/15/2008 7:07:00 AM

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--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, James Bliss <james.bliss@...> wrote:
>
> The article appears to be very incomplete.
> What article (at least one or two) and what
> book did Shapiro find. Seems that there
> should be the ability to verify the sources
> one way or the other and provide additional
> background as to who, what and where.
>
> Jim
>
Here is what I have--he seems to have the same ones although possibly
additional
ones as
well. The book he mentions I have not seen.

Syracuse (New York) Herald, January 16, 1936: "We need new faith in our
highest
ideals,"
says Mildred Pinkerton, executive secretary of the Syracuse YWCA. She calls
attention to
new determinations, new interests in her annual report just submitted.
Quotes
the
prayer--"Oh God, give us courage to change what must be altered, serenity to
accept what
cannot be helped, and insight to know the one from the other."

(This is the caption to a photo. The present director of the Syracuse YWCA
was
able to
find the written record of this annual report for me, but Ms. Pinkerton's
remarks are not
recorded in it.)

Ada (Oklahoma) Evening News, February 19, 1939: Mrs. Edyth Thomas Wallace,
home
counselor of Oklahoma City's public schools, spoke at a P.T.A. meeting: . .
.The
prayer,
said the speaker, of both parents should be "Oh God , give me serenity to
accept
that
which cannot be changed, give me courage to change that which can be changed
and
wisdom to tell the one from the other."

Lowell (Massachusetts) Sun, April 16, 1940: At a women's club meeting a
speaker,
Mrs.
Hildreth, ended her remarks with this statement, "God give me serenity to
accept
things I
cannot change; the courage to change those I can; and the wisdom to know the
difference."

Valley Star-Monitor Herald, Brownsville, Texas, August 17, 1941:In a talk at
a
women's
club meeting summarizing the 29th annual Farmer's Comprehensive Short
Course, a
poem
said to have been by Miss Mildred Horton, state home demonstration agent,
was
repeated:
"God, give me the courage to change/ What must be altered;/ Serenity to
accept/
What
cannot be helped/ And insight to determine/ One from the other."

Indiana (Pennsylvania) Evening Gazette, December 5, 1941: Rose Cologne,
visiting
professor at Pennsylvania State College, ended a talk with a recommendation
that
college
people try to develop "courage to change that which can be changed, serenity
to
face that
which cannot be changed, and insight to tell one from the other."

Hillsboro (Ohio) Press Gazette, April 24, 1942, in a Sunday School column:
"Oh
God, give
me serenity to accept what cannot be changed, the courage to change what can
be
changed; and the wisdom to know one form the other."

These are from actual photographic copies of the papers--I don't see how
there
could be
any mistake or trickery involved. OTOH, nothing has really changed about the
history of
the prayer, in view of the fact that one biographer is already on record
saying
that Niebuhr
wrote the prayer in 1934.

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++++Message 5117. . . . . . . . . . . . Which printings of the 1st edition
BB had red covers?
From: shakey1aa . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/15/2008 11:50:00 AM

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In this post it mentions that only the 1st ed
1st printing has a red cover. On e-bay
currently there is a book for sale that says
it has a red cover. Does anyone know if there
were some red covers in this 2nd printing or
if the book was rebound? It also has gold
lettering on the book and the spine???

Shakey Mike Gwirtz
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
going to National Archives Conv in Niagara Falls NY

- - - -

> Message 2258 from Jim Blair <jblair@...>
> (jblair at videotron.ca)
>
> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/2258
>
> Here are the changes made to the first 16 printings.
>
> The Big Book - Alcoholics Anonymous - Changes to the First Edition
>
> 1st Edition - 1st Printing
> - Title states "ONE HUNDRED MEN."
> - 29 personal stories.
> - Price 3.50$.
> - Cover is red, only printing in red.
> - Story 'Ace Full - Seven - Eleven' deleted.
> - Jacket spine and front flap do not have a print number.
> - Arabic numbers start at 'Doctor's Opinion'.
> - 400 arabic numbered pages (8 roman).
> - Stories: 10 East Coast, 18 Midwest, 1 West Coast.
> - P234-L27, typo. L26 duplicated as L27.
> - Published by Works Publishing Company.
>
> 1st Edition - 2nd Printing
> - Title states "TWO THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."
> - 28 personal stories
> - Cover changed to navy blue, some light blue.
> - Gold lettering deleted from cover, remained on spine.
> - Added Appendix II - Spiritual Experience, p399.
> - Jacket spine and front flap has print number.
> - Stayed at 400 arabic pages (8 roman)
> - Added footnote "see Appendix II", p35, 38, 72.
> - P25-L23, 80 of us to 500 of us.
> - P25-L26, 40-80 persons to 50-200 persons.
> - P63-L13, 100 people to Hundreds of People
> - P72-L03, Spiritual Experience to Awakening.
> - P72-L04, Result of These Steps to Those.
> - P175-L23, Many Hundreds to 500.
> - P234-L27, Typo corrected, 126 not repeated.
> - P391-L01, Added "Now We Are Two Thousand."
> - P397-L01, Moved "Foundation" here from p399.
>
> 1st Edition - 3rd Printing
> - Title changed - "SIX THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Personal stories remain the same thru 1:16.
> - Cover changed to light blue.
> - Reduced in thickness 1/8 and height 1/16.
> - P25-L23, 500 of us to 1000 of us.
> - P27-L01, 100 Men to Hundreds of Men.
> - P26-L13, Sober 3years to sober 5 years.
> - P264-L13, (no time) to sober 5 years.
> - P281-L09, 9 months to past 4 tears.
> - P391-L01, Now we are 2,000 to 6,000.
> - P392-L19, 3,000 letters to 12,000 letters.
> - P393-L06, Increased 20 fold to 60 fold.
> - P393-L12, 5,000 by 01/42 to 8,000 by 01/43.
> - P393-L24, 9 Groups in Cleveland to 25.
> - P393-L24, 500 members in Cleveland to I,000.
> - P393-L26, 1,000 Non-A.A. people to 2,000.
> - P398-L03, Touching to Touching Nationally.
>
> 1st Edition - 4th Printing
> - Title states "EIGHT THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Cover changed to green, last 1,500 navy blue.
> - Piv-L03, Post Box 657 to Box 658.
> - P25-L28, Added foot note "Number of Localities for A.A."
> - P27-L01, 100s of Men to 1000s of Men and Women.
> - P59-L25, Added foot note "Please See Appendix II."
> - P168-L03, 6 years ago to 8 years ago.
> - P152-L02, have been there to has been there.
> - P152-L22, The bank were doing to was doing.
> - P391-L24, Religious content to spiritual.
> - P393-L12, 8,000 by 01/43 to 10,000 by 01/44.
> - P398-L09, Works Publishing Company to Inc.
> - P398-L10, organized to originally organized.
> - P398-L10, members to older members
> - P398-L11, Added 49 gave up stock.
> - P398-L16, this book, to this book.
> - P398-L16, send money to please send money.
>
> 1st Edition - 5th Printing
> - Title states "Ten Thousand Men and Women."
> - Cover changed back to light blue, some navy.
> - Last Big Book in size.
> - Piv-L04, New York City to New York City (7).
> - P25-L28, Foot note "A.A. now in 270 localities."
> - P393-L06, Increased 60 fold to 100 fold.
> - P393-L12, 10,000 by 01/44 to 12,000 by 01/45.
> - P394-L14, Last 2 years to last 5 years.
>
> 1st Edition - 6th Printing
> - Title states "TEN THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Cover changed back to Navy blue. (same as today).
> - Reduced in thickness by 3/8 inch.
> - Piv-L04, New York City (7) to (17).
> - P397-L08, 4 non-A.A. Trustees to 8 non-A.A.
> - P397-L10, 4 non-A.A. Trustees to 8 non-A.A.
> - P398-L21, New York City(7) to (17).
>
> 1st Edition - 7th Printing
> - Title states "FOURTEEN THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Reduced in thickness 3/16 and width 3/8 inches.
> - Pii-L01, Added "WARTIME PRINTING" notice.
> - Piv-L02, Works Publishing Company to Inc.
> - P1-L13, six years ago to 1934.
> - P07-L29, 2 years ago deleted.
> - P09-L04, More than 3 years ago to many years.
> - P25-L28, Foot note "A.A. now in 385 Localities."
> - P175-L22, "Cleveland" footnote deleted.
> - P264-L18, 5 years since to in 1937
> - P273-L22, one year ago to long ago.
> - P281-L09, Past nine months to few years.
> - P331-L14, for 13 months to many years.
> - P392-L19, 12,000 letters to innumerable.
> - P393-L12, 12,000 by 1/45 to thousands a year.
> - P397-L07, Trustees to 4 A.A. Trustees.
>
> 1st Edition - 8th Printing
> - Title states "FOURTEEN THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Reduced thickness ¼, width 1/16, height 1 inch.
> - P11-L01, Has "WARTIME PRINTING" notice.
>
> 1st Edition - 9th Printing
> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Increased thickness 1/8, width 1/8, height 3/8 inches.
> - P323-L20, Two years to several years.
>
> 1st Edition - 10th Printing
> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
> - P154-L30, Abberations to Aberrations.
>
> 1st Edition - 11th Printing
> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Increased thickness 1/16, decreased height 1/8 inches.
> - P28-L22, Ex-Alcoholic to Ex-Problem Drinker.
> - P30-L06, Ex-Alcoholic to Ex-Problem Drinker.
> - P178-L20, Him to HIM.
> - P271-L16, Ex-Alcoholic to Ex-Problem Drinker.
> - P272-L06, Ex-Alcoholic to understanding
> - P330-L30, Ex-Alcoholic to Non-Drinker.
>
> 1st Edition - 12th Printing
> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Decreased height by 1/16.
>
> 1st Edition - 13th Printing
> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Reduced in width 1/16, height 1/8 .
>
> 1st Edition - 14th Printing
> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Reduced in thickness 1/16.
>
> 1st Edition - 15th Printing
> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."

> - Increased in height by 1/16.
> - Published by A.A. PUBLISHING, INC.
>
> 1st Edition - 16th Printing
> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Increased width 1/16, decreased height 1/16.
>
> Last printing of the First Edition.
>

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++++Message 5118. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Fifth steps in early AA
From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/15/2008 6:31:00 AM

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I hope to shed light rather than generate heat.
Terry can speak for himself but I do not
"advocate revisionist speculation"; I was
merely asking a question, and I'm glad the
moderator took a less censorious view than
Art. There is a certain amount of geriatric
egg-sucking going on here. Many of us have
studied the sources, both AA and non-AA, e.g.,
Not God (Kurtz), Frank Buchman (Lean), Getting
Better (Robertson), Changed by Grace (Chesnut),
Bill W (Thomsen), Bill W (Hartigan), Twice
Born Men, More Twice Born Men, Broken
Earthenware (Begbie), New Wine (Mel B), By
the power of God (Dick B), Sister Ignatia
(Darrah), as well as Alcoholics Anonymous
Comes of Age, Pass It On, Dr Bob and the Good
Oldtimers, Grapevine digital archive etc., etc.

Form criticism and hermeneutics are vital to a
fully informed understanding of the text, but
in the old saying, why look in the crystal ball
when you can read the book? The Big Book says
"Here are the Steps WE took which are suggested
as a program of recovery (emphasis added)." Now,
does that or does that not include Dr Bob and
Bill W. and the rest of the "first 100"?

If we are to believe Art's convoluted caveats
the Book should say, "We did not take these
steps exactly as they are written here but
this is how we recommend them to you." But
of course it says no such thing. The early
AA's clearly believed they had taken the steps
in the way they passed them on to the rest of
us - either that or they were being dishonest.

Bill wrote (of the original six steps): "...
our literature would have to be as clear and
comprehensive as possible. Our steps would have
to be more explicit. There must be not be a
single loophole through which a rationalising
alcoholic could wiggle out... Thus we could
better get the distant reader over a barrel,
and at the same time we might be able to
broaden and deepen the spiritual implications
of our whole presentation..."

The following pages in Alcoholics Anonymous
Comes of Age record the struggles of the early
fellowship in finally agreeing the 12 Steps.
And even at the end of the process there were
dissenters, viz: "For a while it looked as if
we would bog down into permanent disagreement.
Despairing of satisfying everyone, I finally
asked that I might be the final judge of what
the book said. Seeing that we would get nowhere
without such a point of decision, MOST of the
group agreed..." (again, emphasis added).

Is it anywhere recorded that Dr Bob did not
agree with the 12 Steps as they were finally
agreed? If he concurred then he most surely
took Step Five, with or without an AA member,
but as I said in my original posting there
seems to be no record of it.

The foreword to the first edition of the Big
Book (1939) says, inter alia, "The only
requirement for membership (of AA) is an
honest desire to stop drinking." So there is
no requirement on anyone to take any of the
Steps, including number five.

- - - -

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.comFrom: ArtSheehan@msn.comDate: Fri, 11 Jul
2008 20:41:38 -0500Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Fifth steps in early AA

Dear Laurie and Terry

With all due respect, you are advocating revisionist speculation not AA
history.
AAHistoryLovers is supposed to focus on fact-based information as opposed to
editorial-based imagination. Bill W sobered up in December 1934. Dr Bob
sobered
up in June 1935. The 12 Steps were first drafted in December 1938. When Bill
W
sobered up there was no such thing even remotely approaching the notion of
doing
the equivalent of a "5th Step" with "people outside of AA." There was no AA.
The
"schoolmate" who visited Bill in the hospital was Ebby T. Bill considered
him to
be his sponsor throughout his life (even though Ebby had his difficulties
staying sober). The idea of alluding to Ebby as "people outside AA" is
absurd.Bill W met Father Dowling in December 1940 at the 24th St Club in NY
City. He reputedly was Bill W's "spiritual sponsor" throughout his life.
Although he was not an alcoholic, to portray Fr Dowling as "people outside
AA"
isalso absurd. He started AA in St Louis, MO. When Dr Bob had his last drink
there was no such thing as "Steps." Both of you seem to be attempting to
retrofit what exists today to something that didn't exist back then. Dr Bob
joined the Oxford Group in 1933. This was approximately two years before he
met
Bill W. During the first few years of its existence, the AA Fellowship was
affiliated with the Oxford Group in both NY and Akron. CoreOxford Group
principles consisted of the "Four Absolutes" of honesty, unselfishness,
purity
and love - the "Five C's" (confidence, confession, conviction, conversion
and
continuance) and the "Five Procedures" (1. Give in to God, 2. Listen to
God's
direction, 3. Check guidance, 4. Restitutionand 5. Sharing for witness and
confession). Dr Bob would certainly not have been a stranger to practicing
the
principle of "Confession." Henrietta Sieberling organized an OG meeting at
the
home of T Henry and Clarace Williams in Akron specifically to help Dr Bob
with
hisdrinking. Dr Bob confessed openly about his drinking but could not
stop.The
OG never had anything that they called or considered to be Steps. The idea
and
evolution of Steps derived in the latter 1930s from what was called the
"alcoholic squads" of the OG in Akron and NY. It initially took the formof a
word-of-mouth 6-Step program. Various versions of the 6 Steps can be found
in
(1) Earl T's Big Book Story "He Sold Himself Short" pg 263 4th edition (2)
"AA
Comes of Age" pg 160 and "Pass It On" pg 197 and (3) a July 1953 Grapevine
Article titled "A Fragment of History" which can also befound in "The
Language
of the Heart" pg 200. In various forms, up to December 1938, the equivalent
of
what later became Steps 5 and 10 were stated as either: (1) "Confession" or
(2)
"We confessed or shared our shortcomings with another person in confidence"
or
(3) "We got honest with another person, in confidence." There was no
"admitted
to God" and "to ourselves."It may sound like AA heresy, but the Big Book is
not
the be-all and end-all on the Steps. When Bill W wrote the bulk of the Big
Book
basic text in 1938 he was in his fourth year of sobriety, there were
approximately 100 members and there were two groups. When Bill wrote the
12&12
in 1953 he was in his 19th year of sobriety, there were approximately 6,000
groups and 128,000 members. That's a great deal of accumulated experience
over
time. In the 12&12, on the 5th Step, Bill W suggests:"Our next problem will
be
to discover the person in whom we are to confide. Here we ought to take much
care, remembering that prudence is a virtue which carries a high rating.
Perhaps
we shall need to share with this person facts about ourselves which no
others
ought to know. We shall want to speak with someone who is experienced, who
not
only has stayed dry but has been able tosurmount other serious difficulties.
Difficulties, perhaps, like our own. This person may turn out to be one's
sponsor, but not necessarily so. If you have developed a high confidence in
him,
and his temperament and problems are close to your own, then such a choice
will
be good. Besides, your sponsor already has the advantage of knowing
something
about your case."

CheersArthur

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++++Message 5119. . . . . . . . . . . . Hazelden revisions: Little Red Book
and Twenty-Four Hours
From: dave_landuyt . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/18/2008 1:37:00 AM

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Does anyone have information on why, and in
what way, Hazelden revised subsequent editions
of "The Little Red Book" and "Twenty-Four Hours
a Day"?

Thanks for any input
Dave

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++++Message 5120. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Which printings of the 1st
edition BB had red covers?
From: bikergaryg@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/16/2008 1:02:00 PM

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From <bikergaryg@aol.com>
(bikergaryg at aol.com)

From my limited understanding I believe that
a few second printings of the first edition
had red covers. the first printing was 1939
and the second printing 1941.

in the wind
Gary Govier

- - - - -

From: DudleyDobinson@aol.com
(DudleyDobinson at aol.com)

Hi Mike,

eBay item 150269984282 finished up selling for
a good price. Would still like the book to be
checked by a professional.

Earl Husband the late archivist from Chicago
area had a copy listed a couple of years ago.
The only other copy I have heard of was in a
Danish collector's possession back in 2001.

The story with the latest edition is that
5000 red bindings were ordered with the
First printing and 4,730 were actually used
and the remainder used with the Second
printing.

I have no way of verifying this. A bookbinding
expert would be the only person who could help.
The dilemna of course is having one to look at.
Perhaps I should mention that I bought my
copy of the First from Earl Husband and I have
some doubts about whether it has been rebound.
It looks too good! But then I remind myself
that my middle name is Thomas.

In fellowship - Dudley - From the Emerald Isles

- - - -

Original message #5117 from Shakey Mike Gwirtz
<shakey1aa@yahoo.com> (shakey1aa at yahoo.com)

Message 2258 from Jim Blair says that only the
1st ed 1st printing has a red cover. On e-bay
currently there is a book for sale that says
it has a red cover. Does anyone know if there
were some red covers in this 2nd printing or
if the book was rebound? It also has gold
lettering on the book and the spine???

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++++Message 5121. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Which printings of the 1st
edition BB had red covers?
From: Cherie'' H. . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/18/2008 8:05:00 AM

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There is a 50th Anniversary Australian edition
that has a red cover and looks like you
described. It is a commemorative Edition
printed in 1995. I have a copy that was sent
to me by a friend in Australia. I am now told
that this is a rare book, even though many
were printed, not many can be found today,
and I have heard they sell for quite a bit
on ebay, but there's nothing in the world
would make me give up mine.

AA Hugs
Cherie'
Mt. Clemens, MI
DOS 04/26/01

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++++Message 5122. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Spiritual not religious
From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/15/2008 11:56:00 AM

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"The two words (spirituality and religion)
can be used interchangeably ... Attempts to
draw a contrasting distinction between the
two words rest far more in the secularism of
contemporary AA rather than in AA's historical
roots."

Really? Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age (pp.
162ff my version): "... the hot debate about
the Twelve Steps and the (Big) book's contents
was doubled and redoubled. There were
conservative, liberal and radical viewpoints
... Fitz thought the book ought to be
Christian in the doctrinal sense of the word
and that it should say so. He was in favor
of using Biblical terms and expressions to
make this clear ... The liberals were the
largest contingent and they had no objection
to the word 'God' throughout the book but
they were dead set against any other
theological proposition. They would have
nothing to do with doctrinal issues (i.e.
religion). SPIRITUALITY, YES. BUT RELIGION,
NO -- POSITIVELY NO (emphasis added)."

(Circa 1938 - historical enough?)

- - - -

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.comFrom: ArtSheehan@msn.comDate: Sun, 6 Jul
2008
21:00:18 -0500Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: Spiritual not religious

Hi JohnRegrettably there is much repeated in AA that has no basis in fact.
Early
AA was very "pro religion" but it never attempted to project itself as a
religion. When too few words are cited it is usually at the expense of
context.
And I don't agree at all with the context you are portraying. This is rather
long reply since you are seeking citations.From my own investigations it
seems
that attempts to draw a distinction between the words "spiritual" and
"religious" are flawed and sophomoric. The two words can be used
interchangeably
based on just about any dictionary. Do a search on the internet for the text
string "definition of spiritual."Almost every return that derives from a
dictionary will define the word "spiritual" as "religious" or "of religion"
or
"of the soul" (spirit). Attempts to draw a contrasting distinction between
the
two words rest farmore in the secularism of contemporary AA rather than in
AA's
historical roots. Many of AA's early historical friends were members of the
clergy and their influence was profound. Bill W often stated that AA's two
best
friendswere medicine and religion.Over the past two decades the rise of
secularism has spawned the notion of the words "religion" or "religious" to
almost be pejoratives. I find this very disturbing. Also be careful to not
be
too selective in the sparse citing of Bill W and the Big Book -- both cite
many
favorable descriptions of"religion" or "religious." For example:From Bill
W's
address to the 1960 National Clergy Conference On Alcoholism:(1)
"Excellencies
and Friends: My thanks to Father Ray for his introduction. He has us off to
an
appropriate start. This hour with you is most meaningful to me and I trust
it
will be to you and to A.A. as a whole. Every thoughtful A.A. realizes that
the
divine grace, which has always flowed through the Church, is the ultimate
foundation on which AA rests. Our spiritual origins are Christian ..."(2)
"...
It now occurs to me that it may be profitable if we were to review the
origins
of AA; to take a look at some of its under-lying mechanisms -- an interior
look
as it were. Of course I am here reflecting my own views, and some of these
are
bound to be speculative. At any rate, here they are.Though AA roots are in
the
centuries-old Christian community, there seems little doubt that in an
immediate
sense our fellowship began in the office of the much-respected Dr. Carl Jung
of
Zurich ..."(3) "... Now a final thought. Many a non-alcoholic clergyman asks
these questions about Alcoholics Anonymous: "Why do clergymen so often fail
with
alcoholics, when AA so often succeeds? Is it possible that the grace of AA
is
superior to that of the Church? Is Alcoholics Anonymous a new religion,
acompetitor of the Church?If these misgivings had real substance, they would
be
serious indeed. But, as I have already indicated, Alcoholics Anonymous
cannot in
the least be regarded as a new religion. Our Twelve Steps have no
theological
content,except that which speaks of "God as we under-stand Him." This means
that
each individual AA member may define God according to whatever faith or
creed he
may have. Therefore there isn't the slightest interference with thereligious
views of any of our membership. The rest of the Twelve Steps define moral
attitudes and helpful practices, all of them precisely Christian in
character.
Therefore, as far as they go, the Steps are good Christianity; indeed they
are
good Catholicism, something which Catholic writers have affirmed more than
once.Neither does AA exert the slightest religious authority over its
members:
No one is compelled to believe anything. No one is compelled to meet
membership
conditions. No one is obliged to pay anything. Therefore we have no system
of
authority, spiritual or temporal, that is comparable to or in the least
competitive with the Church. At the center of our society we have a Board
ofTrustees. This body is accountable yearly to a Conference of elected
Delegates. These Delegates represent the conscience and desire of AA as
regards
functional or service matters. Our Tradition contains an emphaticinjunction
that
these Trustees may never constitute themselves as a government -- they are
to
merely provide certain services that enable AA as a whole to function. The
same
principles apply at our group and area level.Dr. Bob, my co-partner, had his
own
religious views. For whatever they may be worth, I have my own. But both of
us
have gone heavily on record to the effect that these personal views and
preferences can never under anyconditions be injected into the AA program as
a
working part of it. AA is a sort of spiritual kindergarten, but that is all.
Never could it be called a religion.Nor should any clergyman, because he
does
not happen to be a channel of grace to alcoholics, feel that he or his
Church is
lacking in grace. No real question of grace is involved at all - it is just
a
question of who can besttransmit God's abundance. It so happens that we who
have
suffered alcoholism, we who can identify so deeply with other sufferers, are
the
ones usually best suited for this parti-cular work. Certainly no clergyman
ought
to feel any inferiority just because he himself is not an alcoholic! Then,
as I
have already emphasized, AA has actually derived all of its principles,
directly
or indirectly, from the Church.Ours, gentlemen, is a debt of gratitude far
beyond any ability of mine to express. On behalf of members everywhere, I
give
you our deepest thanks for the warm understanding and the wonderful
co-operation
that you haveeverywhere afforded us. Please also have my gratitude for the
privilege of being with you this morning. This is an hour that I shall
remember
always ..."From the Q&A that followed Bill's address:(4) "... When these
Steps
were shown to my friends, their reactions were quite mixed indeed. Some
argued
that six steps had worked fine, so why twelve? From our agnostic contingent
there were loud cries of too much"God." Others objected to an expression,
which
I had included which suggested getting on one's knees while in prayer. I
heavily
resisted these objections for months. But finally did take out my statement
about a suitable prayer-ful posture and I finally went along with that now
tremendously important expression, "God as we understand Him" - this
expression
having been coined, I think, by one of our former atheist members. This was
indeed a ten-strike. That one has since enabled thousands to join AA who
would
have otherwise gone away. It enabled people of fine religious training and
those
of none at all to associate freely and to work together. It made one's
religion
the business of the AA member himself and not that of his society.That AA's
Twelve Steps have since been in such high esteem by the Church, that members
of
the Jesuit Order have repeatedly drawn attention to the similarity between
them
and the Ignatian Exercises, is a matter for ourgreat wonder and gratitude
indeed
..."(5) From the Foreword to the Second Edition Big Book:"... Another reason
for
the wide acceptance of A.A. was the ministration of friends -- friends in
medicine, religion, and the press, together with innumerable others who
became
our able and persistent advocates. Without such support, A.A. could have
made
only the slowest progress. Some of the recommendations of A.A.'s early
medical
and religious friends will be found further on in this book. Alcoholics
Anonymous is not a religious organization. Neither does A.A. take any
particular
medical point of view, though we cooperate widely with the men of medicine
as
well as with the men of religion. Alcohol being no respecter of persons, we
are
an accurate cross section of America, and in distant lands, the same
democratic
evening-up process is now going on. By personal religious affiliation, we
include Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Hindus, and a sprinkling of Moslems
and
Buddhists. More than 15% of us are women ..."(6) From Bill's Story"... The
door
opened and he stood there, fresh-skinned and glowing. There was something
about
his eyes. He was inexplicably different. What had happened?I pushed a drink
across the table. He refused it. Disappointed but curious, I wondered what
had
got into the fellow. He wasn't himself. "Come, what's this all about?" I
queried. He looked straight at me. Simply, but smilingly,he said, "I've got
religion ..."(7) From We Agnostics"... We, who have traveled this dubious
path,
beg you to lay aside prejudice, even against organized religion. We have
learned
that whatever the human frailties of various faiths may be, those faiths
have
given purpose and direction to millions. People of faith have a logical idea
of
what life is all about. Actually, we used to have no reasonable conception
whatever. We used to amuse our-selves by cynically dissecting
spiritualbeliefs
and practices when we might have observed that many spiritually-minded
persons
of all races, colors, and creeds were demon-strating a degree of stability,
happiness and usefulness which we should have sought ourselves ..."(8) From
Into
Action"... We must be entirely honest with somebody if we expect to live
long or
happily in this world. Rightly and naturally, we think well before we choose
the
person or persons with whom to take this intimate and confidential step.
Those
of us belonging to a religious denomination which requires confession must,
and
of course, will want to go to the properly appointed authority whose duty it
is
to receive it. Though we have no religious connection, wemay still do well
to
talk with someone ordained by an established religion. We often find such a
person quick to see and understand our problem. Of course, we sometimes
encounter people who do not understand alcoholics ...""... If circumstances
warrant, we ask our wives or friends to join us in morning meditation. If we
belong to a religious denomination which requires a definite morning
devotion,
we attend to that also. If not members of religious bodies, we sometimes
select
and memorize a few set prayers whichemphasize the principles we have been
discussing. There are many helpful books also. Suggestions about these may
be
obtained from one's priest, minister, or rabbi. Be quick to see where
religious
people are right. Makeuse of what they offer ..."(9) From Working With
Others"... Your prospect may belong to a religious denomination. His
religious
education and training may be far superior to yours. In that case he is
going to
wonder how you can add anything to what he already knows. But he will be
curious
to learn why his own convictions have not worked and why yours seem to work
so
well. He may be an example of the truth that faith alone is insufficient. To
be
vital, faith must be accompanied by self sacrifice and unselfish,
constructive
action. Let him see that you are not there to instruct him in religion.
Admit
that he probably knows more about it than you do, but call to his attention
the
fact that however deep his faith and knowledge, he could not have applied it
or
he would not drink. Perhaps your story will help him see where he has failed
to
practice the very precepts he knows so well. We represent no particular
faith or
denomination. We are dealing only with general principles common to most
denominations ..."(10) From The Family Afterward"... Alcoholics who have
derided
religious people will be helped by such contacts. Being possessed of a
spiritual
experience, the alcoholic will find he has much in common with these people,
though he may differ with them on many matters. If he does not argue about
religion, he will make new friends and is sure to find new avenues of
usefulness
and pleasure. He and his family can be a bright spot in such congregations.
He
may bring new hope and new courage to many a priest, minister, or rabbi, who
gives his all tominister to our troubled world. We intend the foregoing as a
helpful suggestion only. So far as we are concerned, there is nothing
obligatory
about it. As non-denominational people, we cannot make up others' minds
forthem.
Each individual should consult his own conscience ..."========In just about
every mention of "not religious" it seems that Bill's context was that AA is
not
affiliated with any specific religious denomination and matters of religion
are
solely up to each individual member to define for themselves -- Bill very
definitely was not attempting to distance himself from religion. Two more
citations that might be interesting concerning the Oxford Group and its
influence on the principles embodied in the Steps. In a July 14, 1949 letter
to
the Rev Sam Shoemaker Bill W wrote "So far as I am concerned, and Dr Smith
too,
the Oxford Group seeded AA. It was our spiritual wellspring at the
beginning."
In AA Comes of Age (pg 39) Bill also wrote: "Early AA got its ideas of
self-examination, acknowledgment of character defects, restitution for harm
done
and working with others straight from the Oxford Groups and directly from
Sam
Shoemaker their former leader in America and from nowhere else."

CheersArthur

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++++Message 5123. . . . . . . . . . . . How many copies of the Big Book
printed in each printing?
From: Dick . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/17/2008 9:35:00 PM

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I know I've seen this before, but I can't
find it by searching the archives, and
I can't find it anywhere else on line ....
Can anyone tell me the actual sizes of the
print runs for each of the printings of the
Big Book? Or suggest where I can find them.

Thanx
Dick

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++++Message 5124. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Hazelden revisions: Little Red
Book and Twenty-Four Hours
From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/18/2008 5:30:00 PM

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At 00:37 7/18/2008, dave_landuyt wrote:

>Does anyone have information on why, and in
>what way, Hazelden revised subsequent editions
>of "The Little Red Book" and "Twenty-Four Hours
>a Day"?
>
> Thanks for any input
> Dave
>
>
>
>------------------------------------

Hazelden took over publication of Richmond Walker's Twenty-Four Hours
a Day book, they say, in 1954. My best guess of the number of
distinct printings they put out between then and the 1975 copyright
is seven. These can be distinguished from each other by the
Hazelden's address, what logo they used, and its location(s). None of
these had a publication date nor a copyright and all had rounded
corners on the covers.

Hazelden came out with a revised edition with a 1975 copyright. Some
of these even have printing numbers and some were printed by other
companies.

I won't hazard a guess as to why the changes were made. Most changes
render the book gender neutral. They also used American English
spelling in many cases, correcting Walker's tendency to use British
spelling.

I will give a couple of examples.

Entry for April 6, old version: Every alcoholic has a personality
problem. He drinks to escape from life, to counteract a feeling of
loneliness or inferiority, or because of some emotional conflict
within himself, so that he cannot adjust himself to life. His
alcoholism is a symptom of his personality disorder. An alcoholic
cannot stop drinking unless he finds a way to solve his personality
problem. That's why going on the wagon doesn't solve anything. That's
why taking the pledge usually doesn't work.

New version: All alcoholics have personality problems. They drink to
escape from life, to counteract feelings of loneliness or
inferiority, or because of some emotional conflict within them, so
that they cannot adjust themselves to life. Alcoholics cannot stop
drinking unless they find a way to solve their personality problems.
That's why going on the wagon doesn't solve anything. That's why

taking the pledge usually doesn't work.

Entry for May 27, old version: In twelfth-step work, the fifth thing
is continuance. Continuance means our staying with the prospect after
he has started on the new way of living. We must stick with him and
not let him down. We must encourage him to go to meetings regularly
for fellowship and help. He will learn that keeping sober is a lot
easier in the fellowship of others who are trying to do the same
thing. We must continue to help him by going to see him regularly or
telephoning him or writing him so that he doesn't get out of touch
with A.A. Continuance means good sponsorship. Do I care enough about
another alcoholic to continue with him as long as necessary?

New version: In twelfth-step work, the fifth thing is continuance.
Continuance means our staying with prospects after they have started
on the new way of living. We must stick with them and not let them
down. We must encourage them to go to meetings regularly for
fellowship and help. They will learn that keeping sober is a lot
easier in the fellowship of others who are trying to do the same
thing. We must continue to help prospects by going to see them
regularly or telephoning them or writing them so that they don't get
out of touch with A.A. Continuance means good sponsorship. Do I care
enough about other alcoholics to continue with them as long as necessary?
These are typical of the changes made but Hazelden did not change all
the references to male alcoholics. See April 5th for an example of this.

Hazelden took over publishing the Little Red Book some time in the
1960s. The first of the smaller, when compared with the Coll-Webb
printings, format had zip codes with Hazelden's address but did not
have ISBN numbers. That would place publication in the middle 60s.
These had a copyright by Coll-Webb dated 1957. They revised the LRB
at that time so the page references corresponded with the new
pagination of the Second Edition of the Big Book. A very brief
comparison of a dozen or so pages of an early printing and one with a
1970 copyright shows no differences. That is not to say there are no
differences, I just did not find any. I also am not aware of the date
of the current copyright.

There were a number of changes made to the LRB in the first
half-dozen printings from 1946-1950, but the question addressed the
changes Hazelden made.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 5125. . . . . . . . . . . . Serenity Prayer Revisited
From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/24/2008 10:31:00 AM

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I have come across another blurb on the
serenity prayer and uses it as an example of
the oral transmission of prayers:

<http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=355>

This appears to be a web site at the
University of Pennsylvania.

It traces ten versions of the prayer and
once again gives no satisfactory answer to
the question of who wrote it and when.

I note once again that Shapiro's work is
based on what can be found on the web and is
thusly limited by that factor, but there
were a lot of versions extant.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

- - - -

http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=355

The serenity memeJuly 14, 2008 @ 1:31 pm
Filed by Benjamin Zimmer under Linguistic history

As reported in the New York Times and Time
Magazine, Yale law librarian and quotation-
hunter extraordinaire Fred Shapiro has
uncovered evidence undermining the long-held
attribution of "The Serenity Prayer" to the
American theologian Reinhold Niebuhr.
Niebuhr's family originally claimed that
he composed the prayer in the summer of 1943,
but Shapiro has uncovered variations on the
theme going back to 1936 in various American
publications. (The first printed attribution
to Niebuhr is actually from 1942.) Shapiro
lays out his evidence in the Yale Alumni
Magazine, followed by a rebuttal by Niebuhr's
daughter Elisabeth Sifton.

What's particularly fascinating about Shapiro's
documentary evidence is how the early citations
all fit a general formula and yet show a
divergence in phrasing reminiscent of the
Telephone game. Regardless of how much claim
her father ultimately has to originating the
prayer, Sifton is correct to point out that
"prayers are presented orally, circulate
orally, and become famous orally long before
they are put on paper." It's clear that by
the time the prayer found its way into print
in the '30s and '40s, the oral transmission
of the meme was already well under way, as
illustrated by the mutations it underwent in
the retelling.

Below are ten variants of the prayer cited in
Shapiro's article, with the final one from
1943 being Niebuhr's preferred version,
according to his daughter. I've arranged them
in tabular form so that the formula is more
obvious. What God is being asked to grant
consists of three noun phrases, which we can
label SERENITY, COURAGE, and WISDOM. Note
that in a few of these early cases, COURAGE
actually precedes SERENITY; I've marked these
with (1) and (2) to indicate the actual order
of the NPs in the source texts.

O God, give us
serenity to accept what cannot be helped (2)
courage to change what must be altered (1)
and insight to know the one from the other
1936

we may have
an understanding and serenity to face what cannot be changed (2)
the courage to change what should be altered (1)
and the wisdom to recognize one from the other
1938

oh God, give me
serenity to accept that which cannot be changed
courage to change that which can be changed
and wisdom to tell the one from the other
1939

God give me
serenity to accept things I cannot change
the courage to change those I can
and the wisdom to know the difference
1940

we must have
the serenity to accept what we cannot change within ourselves
the courage to attempt to change what we can
and the wit to know one from the other
1941

God, give me
serenity to accept what cannot be helped (2)
the courage to change what must be altered (1)
and insight to determine one from the other
1941

try to develop
serenity to face that which cannot be changed (2)
courage to change that which can be changed (1)
and insight to tell one from the other
1941

O God, give me
serenity to accept what cannot be changed
the courage to change what can be changed
and the wisdom to know one from the other
1942

give me
the patience to accept those things which I cannot change
the courage to change those things which can be changed
and the wisdom to know the difference
1942

God, give us
grace to accept with serenity the things that cannot be changed
courage to change the things that should be changed
and the wisdom to distinguish the one from the other
1943

Given the amount of variation in the prayer's
form, it takes a lot of clever searching
through enormous databases of digitized texts
to trace its early transmission. Shapiro
long ago turned this type of linguistic
investigation into an art form, as is on
display in his masterwork, the Yale Book
of Quotations. As databases become more
powerful in their search functionality and
broader in the scope of their source material,
tracking these memetic mutations will
increasingly become a game that we can all
take part in.

[My standard warning: Google Book Search is
getting better and better for this sort of
research, but it's plagued by misdating
problems, particularly with serials like
journals and magazines. So if you think
you've trumped Shapiro by finding a version
of the prayer from, say, 1900, take a close
look at the metadata provided by Google for
the text. More often than not, a deceptively
early dating in the search results actually
refers to the first year of the serial's
publication.]

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++++Message 5126. . . . . . . . . . . . Barry Leach
From: Charlie Bishop Jr. . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/23/2008 9:14:00 PM

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two questions...

When did Barry Leach die?

How long was he Lois Wilson's chauffeur,
go-fer, nurse, companion at home and numerous
AA events?

What period of years...from ... to ...?

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++++Message 5127. . . . . . . . . . . . Earliest versions of the Little Red
Book
From: dave_landuyt . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/23/2008 7:16:00 PM

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What were the substantive changes made in the
earliest versions of the "Little Red Book"?
What do the changes tell us about Dr. Bob's
intent to (clarify/expand?) upon the original
text?

Thank You for any and all opinions - Dave

- - - -

From Glenn C. <glennccc@sbcglobal.net>
(glennccc at sbcglobal.net)

See http://hindsfoot.org/ed02.html for a
few of the differences between the 1946 and
the 1949 versions.

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++++Message 5128. . . . . . . . . . . . Were the 12 steps Harper''s
suggestion?
From: James Flynn . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/22/2008 7:47:00 PM

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Two different accounts of the role of Harper &
Brothers in the writing of the Big Book:

FIRST VERSION:

"Pass It On" (the conference biography of
Bill W.) pages 193-194 (the Harper offer,
which was for $1,500, was rejected by the
AA people)

and pages 196-199 (the writing of the twelve
steps came much later and had nothing to do
with the Harper & Brothers offer).

"Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age" pages
153-155 and pages 159-163 give essentially
the same story as the one given in "Pass
It On."

SECOND VERSION:

An AA History talk by Jim Burwell in which he
gives his own recollections of what happened
with regard to Harper & Brothers:
http://www.xa-speakers.org/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=1663

DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE TWO VERSIONS:

According to Jim Burwell the offer was for
three thousand dollars. According to Pass It
On and AA Comes of Age the offer was for an
advance of fifteen hundred dollars to be
deducted from the total royalties once the
book was published.

At any rate, regardless of whether the amount
was three thousand dollars or fifteen hundred
dollars, Hank Parker thought it was suspicious
that Harper & Brothers was willing to make
such such a generous offer and proposed that
AA publish the book on its own so that AA
could keep most of the profits. Hank's idea
of self-publishing the book was the beginning
of the Works Publishing Company.

My larger point however was to point out that
according to Jim Burwell it was Harper &
Brothers' idea to include a program of
recovery, aka the twelves steps, in the Big
Book in order to make the book more marketable.

Also I wanted to make the larger point that
the "first 100" may have actually gotten
sober before the 12 steps (as such) were
written and that writing the steps were an
afterthought based on a publisher's suggestion.

Personally I don't know what to believe
since alcoholics rarely allow the truth to
stand in the way of a good story.

Sincerely, Jim Flynn

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++++Message 5129. . . . . . . . . . . . Barry L. and Bill W''s copy of the
Big Book manuscript
From: Kilroy . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/25/2008 6:21:00 PM

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Hi everybody, while on the subject of Barry L.,
I have heard that Lois gave Barry Bill W's
original copy of the Big Book Manuscript.

Can anyone tell me where it is now?

Kilroy W.
Philadelphia PA

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++++Message 5130. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Barry L. and Bill W''s copy of
the Big Book manuscript
From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/26/2008 3:33:00 PM

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From: <jlobdell54@hotmail.com>
(jlobdell54 at hotmail.com)

The corrected multilith copy of the BB given
by Lois to Barry L is the copy that was
auctioned twice at Sotheby's within the last
couple of years, once for more than $1 million,
once for slightly less. Check aaholygrail on
the net for details.

- - - -

From: "Arthur S" <ArtSheehan@msn.com>
(ArtSheehan at msn.com)

Lois gave Barry the mark-up manuscript (a
one-of-a-kind gem).

Barry reputedly passed it on to his nephew
who auctioned it for sizable sum (around a
million and a half in 2004).

It resold to the current for a steep decline
(around 900 thousand).

Currently the saga of the mark-up manuscript
can be found at

http://www.aaholygrail.com/3.html

The site has some very nice graphics and
reveals the name of the author of "Ace Full
- Seven - Eleven" as Del T.

Cheers
Arthur

- - - -

From: "lester112985" <lgother@optonline.net>
(lgother at optonline.net)

This manuscript was just sold recently at
auction. My sponsor and I had the wonderful
fortune of spending several hours reviewing
and photographing this awesome peice of AA
history. Here is a site of the new owner of
manuscript: http://www.aaholygrail.com/3.html
Hope you have the same spiritual experience
with it as I did. God Bless!

Lester Gother
Area 44
Northern New Jersey

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++++Message 5131. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Barry L. and Bill W''s copy of
the Big Book manuscript
From: rick . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/25/2008 9:17:00 PM

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The “Printer’s Manuscript” that Bill had kept
was the actual annotated multilith that was
taken to Cornwall Press in early February 1939.
It contained all of the last-minute edits with
handwritten notes and changes from Bill,
Hank P., and a few others (how about some
things from the book publisher, too? anything
can be possible). This ‘original copy’ has
great provenance; one greatly historical
item that was saved over the years.

Lois retained it after Bill died and gifted
it (1980s?) to Barry L. as a token of her
affection for his friendship. A few say that
it was a collateral compensation for the low
AAWS payment for his work on "Living Sober,"
or, more likely his efforts to help write
"Lois Remembers."

Someone performed conservation on this
manuscript at some point, too--- it may have
been deacidified and encapsulated by Barry’s
family or immediately prior to the Sotheby’s
Auction House offering in 2004. Bill P. of
Minnesota (rest his soul) was one AA archivist
who verified its authenticity when it was
placed on the auction block, and the sellers
(Barry’s heirs) accepted a telephoned bid
from someone in California for 1.58 million
dollars. So, it stayed in private hands.

In 2007, it returned to the auction block
(Sotheby’s) and sold for just under a million
dollars. The buyers made a few online
announcements of pending availability for
excerpts, but I hadn’t seen much more about
its accessibility since the months after its
last purchase.

It remains in private hands.

Rick, Illinois

At the time of the first sale I shared this
quip at a local presentation on Big Book
history, “you might not get drunk buying your
way through AA historical treasures, but you
sure should be ready to spend a lot of cash…”
In a perfect world the “Printer’s Manuscript”
would have been contributed and placed in
the AA Archives at GSO. Again, anything is
possible!---R.

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++++Message 5133. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Were the 12 steps Harper''s
suggestion?
From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/25/2008 9:03:00 PM

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Hi Jim

The idea that Exman or Harper suggested the
Steps has no basis in fact.

The main reason for Harper/Eugene Exman's
involvement was due to the search for funds
to sustain the book project. In September 1938,
board Trustee Frank Amos arranged a meeting
between Bill W and Exman (Religious Editor of
Harper Brothers publishers). Exman offered
Bill a $1,500 advance ($21,429 today) on the
rights to the book. The Alcoholic Foundation
Board urged acceptance of the offer. Instead,
Hank P (Parkhurst not Parker) persuaded Bill
to form Works Publishing Co. and sold stock
at $25 par value ($357 today). 600 shares were
issued: Hank and Bill received 200 shares each,
200 shares were sold to others. Later, 30
shares of preferred stock, at $100 par value
($1,429 today) were sold as well.

In AA Comes of Age (p 155) Bill W writes "Still
much disturbed about the whole business, I
went back to Gene Exman and frankly explained
to him what was about to happen. To my utter
amazement, he agreed, quite contrary to his
own interest, that a society like ours ought
to control and publish its own literature.
Moreover, he felt that very possibly we could
do this with success. Though Gene's opinion
did not register at all when it was transmitted
to the Trustees, it did give Henry and me
the kind of encouragement we so much needed."

In regards to funds to finance the book, as it
turned out, at the urging of Dr Silkworth,
Charles Towns loaned Hank and Bill $2,500 for
the book. It was later increased to $4,000 and
that resolved the funding matter. Exman later
played a role in the distribution of the 12&12
and AA Comes of Age through retail channels
via Harper.

In regards to the so-called "first 100" in
December 1938, the Twelve Steps were written
at 182 Clinton St (in about 30 minutes). Prior
to this, the recovery program consisted of 6
Steps that were passed on by word of mouth
to new members. Three differing versions of
the 6 Steps are in The Language of the Heart
(pg 200), AA Comes of Age (p 160), Pass It On
(p 197) and the Big Book Pioneer story He Sold
Himself Short by Earl T (p 263 4th ed].

In a July 1953 Grapevine article by Bill W,
he credits Dr Silkworth, the Oxford Group and
William James as the 3 main channels of
inspiration for the Step - he then wrote:

"During the next three years after Dr. Bob's
recovery our growing groups at Akron, New
York and Cleveland evolved the so-called
word-of-mouth program of our pioneering time.
As we commenced to form a society separate from
the Oxford Group, we began to state our princi-
ples something like this:

1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol
2. We got honest with ourselves
3. We got honest with another person, in
confidence
4. We made amends for harms done others
5. We worked with other alcoholics without
demand for prestige or money
6. We prayed to God to help us to do these
things as best we could

Though these principles were advocated according
to the whim or liking of each of us, and though
in Akron and Cleveland they still stuck by the
O.G. absolutes of honesty, purity, unselfishness
and love, this was the gist of our message to
incoming alcoholics up to 1939, when our present
Twelve Steps were put to paper.

I well remember the evening on which the Twelve
Steps were written I was lying in bed quite
dejected and suffering from one of my imaginary
ulcer attacks. Four chapters of the book,
Alcoholics Anonymous, had been roughed out and
read in meetings at Akron and New York. We
quickly found that everybody wanted to be an
author. The hassles as to what should go into
our new book were terrific. For example, some
wanted a purely psychological book which would
draw in alcoholics without scaring them. We
could tell them about the "God business" after-
wards. A few, led by our wonderful southern
friend, Fitz M., wanted a fairly religious
book infused with some of the dogma we had
picked up from the churches and missions which
had tried to help us. The louder these argu-
ments, the more I felt in the middle. It
appeared that I wasn't going to be the author
at all. I was only going to be an umpire who
would decide the contents of the book. This
didn't mean, though, that there wasn't terrific
enthusiasm for the undertaking. Every one of
us was wildly excited at the possibility of
getting our message before all those countless
alcoholics who still didn't know.

Having arrived at Chapter Five, it seemed high
time to state what our program really was. I
remember running over in my mind the word-of-
mouth phrases then in current use. Jotting
these down, they added up to the six named
above. Then came the idea that our program
ought to be more accurately and clearly stated.
Distant readers would have to have a precise
set of principles. Knowing the alcoholic's
ability to rationalize, something airtight
would have to be written. We couldn't let the
reader wiggle out anywhere. Besides, a more
complete statement would help in the chapters
to come where we would need to show exactly
how the recovery program ought to be worked.

At length I began to write on a cheap yellow
tablet. I split the word of-mouth program up
into smaller pieces, meanwhile enlarging its
scope considerably. Uninspired as I felt, I
was surprised that in a short time, perhaps
half an hour, I had set down certain principles
which, on being counted, turned out to be
twelve in number. And for some unaccountable
reason, I had moved the idea of God into the
Second Step, right up front. Besides, I had
named God very liberally throughout the other
steps. In one of the steps I had even suggested
that the newcomer get down on his knees.

When this document was shown to our New York
meeting the protests were many and loud. Our
agnostic friends didn't go at all for the idea
of kneeling. Others said we were talking
altogether too much about God. And anyhow,
why should there be twelve steps when we had
done fine on six? Let's keep it simple, they
said.

This sort of heated discussion went on for
days and nights. But out of it all there came
a ten-strike for Alcoholics Anonymous. Our
agnostic contingent, speared by Hank P. and
Jim B., finally convinced us that we must make
it easier for people like themselves by using
such terms as "a Higher Power" or "God as we
understand Him!" Those expressions, as we so
well know today, have proved lifesavers for
many an alcoholic. They have enabled thousands
of us to make a beginning where none could
have been made had we left the steps just as
I originally wrote them. Happily for us there
were no other changes in the original draft
and the number of steps still stood at twelve.
Little, did we then guess that our Twelve Steps
would soon be widely approved by clergymen of
all denominations and even by our latter-day
friends, the psychiatrists.

This little fragment of history ought to
convince the most skeptical that nobody
invented Alcoholics Anonymous. It just grew
... by the grace of God."

Cheers
Arthur

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of James Flynn
Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 6:48 PM
To: Glenn Chesnut
Cc: aahistorylovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Were the 12 steps Harper's suggestion?

Two different accounts of the role of Harper &
Brothers in the writing of the Big Book:

FIRST VERSION:

"Pass It On" (the conference biography of
Bill W.) pages 193-194 (the Harper offer,
which was for $1,500, was rejected by the
AA people)

and pages 196-199 (the writing of the twelve
steps came much later and had nothing to do
with the Harper & Brothers offer).

"Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age" pages
153-155 and pages 159-163 give essentially
the same story as the one given in "Pass
It On."

SECOND VERSION:

An AA History talk by Jim Burwell in which he
gives his own recollections of what happened
with regard to Harper & Brothers:
http://www.xa-speakers.org/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=1663

DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE TWO VERSIONS:

According to Jim Burwell the offer was for
three thousand dollars. According to Pass It
On and AA Comes of Age the offer was for an
advance of fifteen hundred dollars to be
deducted from the total royalties once the
book was published.

At any rate, regardless of whether the amount
was three thousand dollars or fifteen hundred
dollars, Hank Parker thought it was suspicious
that Harper & Brothers was willing to make
such such a generous offer and proposed that
AA publish the book on its own so that AA
could keep most of the profits. Hank's idea
of self-publishing the book was the beginning
of the Works Publishing Company.

My larger point however was to point out that
according to Jim Burwell it was Harper &
Brothers' idea to include a program of
recovery, aka the twelves steps, in the Big
Book in order to make the book more marketable.

Also I wanted to make the larger point that
the "first 100" may have actually gotten
sober before the 12 steps (as such) were
written and that writing the steps were an
afterthought based on a publisher's suggestion.

Personally I don't know what to believe
since alcoholics rarely allow the truth to
stand in the way of a good story.

Sincerely, Jim Flynn

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++++Message 5134. . . . . . . . . . . . Error in printing date for 12 X 12
forty-ninth printing?
From: brigdencole . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/29/2008 2:18:00 PM

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I have two AA 12X12 step books. They both
state forty-ninth printing. However one says
September, 1993 and the other says January,
1994.

Any idea what AAWS did on these?

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++++Message 5135. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Harper & Brothers and the Big
Book
From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/28/2008 4:12:00 PM

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What were the first two chapters of the Big
Book that Bill W presented to the publishers?
I read somewhere that originally the doctor's
opinion was the first chapter.

So did they send Harper & Brothers "The
Doctor's Opinion" and "Bill's Story"?

- - - -

Message #5128 from James Flynn
<jdf10487@yahoo.com> (jdf10487 at yahoo.com)

"Pass It On" (the conference biography of
Bill W.) pages 193-194, two chapters of
the Big Book were sent to Harper &
Brothers.

"Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age" pages
153-155 says the same thing.

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++++Message 5136. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Barry L. and Bill W''s copy of
the Big Book manuscript
From: Mel B. . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/31/2008 2:02:00 PM

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Hi Rick,

I was pleased to read this additional
information about Barry L., the manuscript,
etc. If his heirs made a bundle out of the
manuscript, it is probably poetic justice.
I think Barry did feel he deserved more
pay for what services he had rendered to
AA World Services and Lois supported him
in this effort. It failed, however, and
Barry died without getting any additional
bucks (at least to my knowledge). He was
virtually a son to Lois and accompanied her
or her trips. I took a photo of her greeting
Jack Bailey in Akron in 1978, with Barry
standing behind her. This is the only
photo I have of Barry, and I wish another
was available.

Mel
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mel Barger
melb@accesstoledo.com
(melb at accesstoledo.com)

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++++Message 5137. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Error in printing date for 12 X
12 forty-ninth printing?
From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/29/2008 4:53:00 PM

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At 13:18 7/29/2008, brigdencole wrote:

>I have two AA 12X12 step books. They both
>state forty-ninth printing. However one says
>September, 1993 and the other says January,
>1994.
>
>Any idea what AAWS did on these?


They did the same thing with the 47th
printing. There are two, one dated January
1993. I'm not sure if that was the first
or the second of the 47th printings.

There is a long history of mislabelling
12x12s starting with the 8th printing
stating it is a 7th. Collectors usually
distinguish them by the dates in the
footnotes at the beginning and end of the
foreword.

I have a 12x12 that came out around 1990
that doesn't have a printing number.

To me it just makes collecting them more
interesting.

Tommy in Baton Rouge

- - - -

Message 5134 from "brigdencole" says

I have two AA 12X12 step books. They both
state forty-ninth printing. However one says
September, 1993 and the other says January,
1994.

ANY IDEA WHAT AAWS DID ON THESE?

- - - -

From: "Charlie Bishop Jr." <bishopbk@comcast.net>
(bishopbk at comcast.net)

They made a mistake?

- - - -

From: "Kimball ROWE" <roweke@msn.com>
(roweke at msn.com)

Misprints are commonplace. I've got a soft
bound large print edition of "AS BIKK SEES IT"

They couldn't get Bill's name right (off
the home row I suspect).

I wouldn't read anything into it other than
the transcriptionist was tired.

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++++Message 5138. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr. Tom M. (AA 1939)
From: chetcope2 . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/27/2008 9:58:00 AM

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Transcript of Bill W. telling the story of
Dr. Tom M., an important episode in the
history of the debate within AA circles over
the issue of alcoholism vs. drug addiction
during the period between 1939 and 1947.

- - - -

A man named Dr. Tom M. was referred to in
message 5082: "AA History Resource"
from: <mdingle76@yahoo.com>
(mdingle76 at yahoo.com)
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/5082

That message referred to a transcript of
Bill W. telling about Dr. Tom M.

<<Dr. Tom got the AA Big Book in 1939 while
a patient at Lexington Hospital for drug
addicts. Tom M. wrote to AA, got sober,
started one of the first groups to communicate
with headquarters by mail, and more.>>

- - - -

A request was made for additional information in
Message 5087 from
"mrpetesplace" <peter@aastuff.com>
(peter at aastuff.com)
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/5087

I would like to know if this Dr. Tom M. is
the same person as the man who is associated
with Shelby, North Carolina. That is where AA
started in this state. This man went to
Lexington, Kentucky. I'm fairly sure that this
is the same person ....

This would be the doctor that Bill talks about
visiting on his trip south and stopped off at
a little town when he closed his talk with the
Yale Summer lectures on Alcoholism ....

Peter F., North Carolina

- - - -

Here is the article that Peter F. was
asking about. The original can be found at:

http://www.24-communications.com/072008/072008.pdf

How Bill W. Learned that
AA’s 12 Steps Work for
Drug Addicts, Too

by Thomas E. Powers

Dr. Tom M. joined AA in 1939. He was a physician.
He was an alcoholic. And he was a narcotics
addict — hooked on morphine for twelve years.
He read the AA Big Book while he was a patient at
the U.S. Public Health Service Hospital in Lexington,
Kentucky.

Impressed by the Twelve Steps, and hopeful
for the possibility of a new life, Dr. Tom contacted
the AA central service office in New York by mail.
After his release from the hospital in Lexington,
Dr. Tom returned to his home in Shelby, North
Carolina, and started an AA group.
In the beginning, his contact with other AAs
consisted of letters back and forth from the AA central
office. But he stayed sober and clean; he never
drank or took drugs again.

Bill Wilson called Dr. Tom’s story “one of the
greatest ever to come out of Alcoholics Anonymous.”
Bill told part of Dr. Tom’s story at a large
AA meeting in Memphis, Tennessee, in September
of 1947. Here’s what Bill said:

- - - -

It was some six years ago. AA had made a good start.
We were getting on firmer ground here and there, but
nothing was too certain. One day our central office in New
York (which is merely a service center where we receive
inquiries and one thing and another) — one day that office
received a letter from a man who was an inmate of
the Lexington place for drug addicts. This man told us
in the letter how he had been a physician, had got onto
alcohol, and then onto morphine, and that while there
in the asylum someone had written him about AA. He
said he had been reading this AA book of ours [Alcoholics
Anonymous, the AA Big Book], which is our book
of experience.

“Of course, I used to be an alcoholic,” he wrote,
“but now I’m an addict of some twelve years standing,
and you know how hopeless that is. But I do see hope
for me in this philosophy of yours, and when I get out
of here I’m certainly going to try it.”

Subsequently our office struck up a correspondence
with him as he’d returned home to that little
southern hamlet. He told us in his quiet way of the
various difficulties he had getting settled again, but
never in any complaining sense. The girls in our office
would write him occasional letters of encouragement,
and little by little he began to describe the formation
of an AA group in Shelby. (By the way, this was one of
the earliest groups we formed through the mail, without
any direct contact.) Well, it was a great thrill to all
of us in the office.

Meanwhile, the southern centers had started —
Atlanta, Richmond, Jacksonville. In larger places the
groups had become larger, and with that a demand
had arisen that I get down among the southerners and
pay my respects and see if I couldn’t peddle a little of
the older AA experience down there.

You see, AA began to look like a success at that
time, and as everyone knows, success is a heady wine.
I’m afraid that I was a little bit on the “big shot” side,
and I spent some little time debating with the folks in
the office whether I would stop off at Shelby. I mean,
you know, that chap there was a nice chap, and he had
done a nice job, but I should get where I could get to
a lot of people. After some debating with myself and
others, I finally, grudgingly, conceded that I would
stop off there at Shelby.

Well, when I got off the train at King’s Mountain,
North Carolina, I saw three men approaching me from
down the platform a ways. Two of them I spotted as
“souses” right off the bat, you couldn’t mistake it —
they were sober, you understand, but we drunks know
our own quite well. The third one, well I wondered
who and what he was. As he drew near I saw some lines
in his face that I didn’t quite place, and as he drew
nearer I saw his lips were marked in a strange way. I
learned later that in the agony of his dope hangovers
he had chewed them, leaving scars. He turned out to
be the delightful soft-spoken man we call Dr. Tom.
Well, we got in the car and drove from King’s
Mountain over to Shelby. We were set down at the door
of a beautiful, typically southern ancestral home. We
went inside, and there I first met Tom’s mother, and then
his young wife and their new baby. And I could feel the
warmth and love and happiness through the atmosphere
of that home.

The meal came and went — and from an AA point
of view, it was a most unusual meal. I found that Tom was
rather reluctant to talk about what he had done in Shelby,
so there wasn’t much AA “shop talk” at the table ( practically
unheard-of elsewhere), and I wondered myself if
dope had a humbling effect — if so, I think that some of
us alcoholics should have taken more of it.

At any rate, presently meeting time came, and we
got down there, and the meeting place was right under
the hotel — right next to the barbershop — very public.
And I said to myself, “Well, now, for a small town that’s
really going some!” And, yes, even over the door, here were
two letters — “AA.” And I got in there and here was the
usual jolly crowd, and then the meeting started.

Well now, up in New York — incidentally, I’m not
from New York, so I can say what I am going to say with
impunity; I’m a Vermonter and therefore one of the
damnedest of all Yankees — our group there is very cosmopolitan.
We have vast numbers of what you might call
“stumble-bums,” and we have a great many sophisticates
and very wise people there, or at least we used to until
AA tamed them down.

In those days we used to rather have to pussy-foot
in New York on the subject of God, lest we scare away some
of the intellectuals, so when I got to Shelby and there was
a great, long invocation, and a choir girl got up and sang a
hymn — well, it was reminiscent of my youth in Vermont,
but I said to myself, “Well now, the New Yorkers wouldn’t
call this AA.”

Well, then they called upon me to talk, and I talked
(too long — by the way; shut me off anytime you get tired
tonight — I have that habit), and then I believe there was
another long prayer and the meeting was over. And I began
to notice with amazement that there were an awful lot
of AAs there. I mean, twenty, thirty of them in this small
place, and they told me there was an equal number out in
the defense industry nearby.

I was wonderfully and favorably stirred by the whole
thing, but the crux of my story turns around what happened
the following morning.

I was to leave on an early train, and somebody called
up from the lobby and said, “Do you mind, Bill — I’d like
to drop up and tell you a few things about Dr. Tom.”
And a man came up, and after he re-introduced
himself (I remembered him from the meeting the night
before), he said, “I’ve got some things you should know.
Speaking of myself, I used to be a banker. I once organized
a whole string of banks in these southern states. I
was on the high road to success. But I was cut down by
alcohol, and then I was cut down by morphine. I was in
the asylum in Lexington with Dr. Tom once. He knew
my story and knew that I couldn’t stay clean. He asked
me to come here for a visit, and I ended up staying here
to work with him. I have been sober and clean now my-
self a year, and he about three.”

And he said, “You know, I’m very gladly working as a
janitor at the Masonic Temple, just so I can have time to
work with my friend Dr. Tom. But enough of me — let
me tell you about Dr. Tom.

“Do you realize that when that man came back
here to this little town — can you possibly comprehend
what the stigma was upon him? The stigma of both alcohol
and morphine was on him. He had dishonored his
profession of medicine, and disgraced his highly placed
family in this community. People were so scandalized
that they hardly spoke to him on the street.” And he said,
“I’m sorry to say that even the drunks of Shelby were snobbish,
saying that they were going to be sobered up by no
damned drug addict.

“Well, little by little he began to work, and little by
little he began to succeed, and the group grew.
“Well, now,” said this man, “you’ve been at Tom’s
home — you have seen that happy mother of his, you’ve
seen the new wife, and you’ve seen the new baby, but you
still don’t know the whole story.

“Tom now has been made the head of our local hospital.
He probably has the largest medical practice in this
county today. All this was accomplished in just three years,
from a start way behind the line. We have a yearly custom
in this town in which all the citizens take a vote on which
one of them has been the most useful individual to the
community in the year past. Last spring Dr. Tom was unanimously
nominated as the most useful citizen of the town
of Shelby.”

When he had finished his recital, I said to myself,
“So you were the man, Bill Wilson, who was too important
to go to Shelby.” Indeed, what hath God wrought.

- - - -

Three years before Bill gave that talk, Dr. Tom
had written a letter which was published in The AA
Grapevine. He was answering another letter from
“Doc” N. — himself a recovered narcotics addict who
had gotten clean in AA. We publish this correspondence
from The AA Grapevine issues of August and
September 1944, for the interest and help of other
recovered and recovering addicts.

The first letter is from “Doc” N. —

- - - -

Dear Grapevine:

Your second issue at hand inspires me to
an idea. I’m sure there are other AAs who,
like myself, are finding in AA the highway
to freedom from narcotics. Why not give us a
“hophead’s corner” in The Grapevine? After
all, we do have a particular problem.

Even if mine is essentially the same
problem of all alcoholics, I occasionally
could wish that there were just one other
narcotic victim in my AA group with whom I
might share experience. And though through
the help of the Higher Power and my AA friends
I no longer take morphine, I realize I fear
it in a way I’ve ceased fearing alcohol.

If I could just share experience with
some other “hophead” I know it would be a
big help, and among AA’s thousands I’m sure
I’ll find my fellows.

Sincerely, “Doc” N.

- - - -

The next issue of The AA Grapevine published an
answer to this letter, from “Dr. Tom M., Shelby, North
Carolina” —

- - - -

Dear Grapevine:

I noticed recently in an issue of The
Grapevine a letter from “Doc” N., who had
found release from narcotics addiction
through AA.

This letter I was glad to see, and hasten
to assure him and others that his experience
is one that is beginning to be shared by
quite a few. We have in our club five men who
have had many years of drug addiction but who
are finding complete freedom from drugs and
are well on the highway to successful and
happy living. Their period of freedom varies
from five months to six years, and they all
attribute this to the help of a Higher Power
that has come to them through AA.

These men, with one exception, were all
primary alcoholics, and I believe this is
largely true of all “hopheads.”

I think all drug addicts will have less
difficulty in accepting Step One than the
regular alcoholic: that their lives have
become unmanageable, and that they are powerless
over narcotics.

I think we feel the need of even greater
help than does the usual alcoholic. Our spiritual
lines of communication must be kept
clearer and there is need for greater voltage
from the spiritual dynamo. The Higher
Power is able unto the uttermost to supply
this; and many others should find the answer
in AA.

I’m sure that the other AA groups have
men who are finding the new life of freedom
and I earnestly wish that we may get into
communication with each other; and I suggest
the possibility, some time, of interesting
the U.S. Public Health Service in the
establishment of an AA group in the United
States Public Health Services Hospital, which
is in Lexington, Kentucky.

Dr. Tom M.,Shelby, N.C.

- - - -

Permission to reprint the AA Grapevine, Inc.
copyrighted material. 24 Communications,
Inc does not imply affiliation with or endorse-
ment by either Alcoholics Anonymous or the
AA Grapevine, Inc.

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++++Message 5139. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr Silkworths signature missing from
the 1st edition BB
From: Stephen Gentile . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/29/2008 7:03:00 PM

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I have been a long time reader on this message
board but do not remember this topic.

Why was Dr Silkworth's signature ommited from
the first edition BB?

When did the signature first appear in the BB?

I have a 1st ed. 11th printing and it is not
in it. I have 2nd ed. (1st, 2nd and 3rd
printings) and it is in all of them.

I was told by someone once that it was left
out to protect Silky from others in his field
until alcoholism was seen as a disease. Was
his signature finally included when the AMA
finally officially recognized alcoholism as
a disease?

The problem here, for me, is that alcoholism
had in fact been characterized by some others
in the medical profession in the late 1700's
as a disease or at least an addiction.

Any positive proof would be appreciated. I am
not interested in opinions as I have previously
heard too many of those.

Kind Regards, Steve G.
New Jersey

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++++Message 5140. . . . . . . . . . . . Swedenborgianism: Lois W.''s
grandfather''s book
From: mdingle76 . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/29/2008 10:47:00 PM

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I have occasionally seen mention of Swendenborg
on AAHistoryLovers and I thought it would be of
interest for the group to know that Lois
Wilson's grandfather (who was a reverend in
the Swedenborgian Church — the Church of New
Jerusalem), wrote a book called "Discrete
Degrees," which can been viewed on
http://www.stepstudy.org

I first heard about "Discrete Degrees" many
years ago when reading a letter between Lois
and my father-in-law, Tom Powers. I am glad
to see that stepstudy has put it up for others
to read it.

Matt D.

- - - -

STEPSTUDY.ORG GIVES A LINK TO THIS SITE:

- - - -

http://www.theisticscience.org/books/burnham/index.htm

DISCRETE DEGREES
IN
SUCCESSIVE AND SIMULTANEOUS ORDER

ILLUSTRATED BY DIAGRAMS

BY THE
REV. N.C. BURNHAM

PHILADELPHIA
THE ACADEMY OF THE NEW CHURCH
1821 WALLACE STREET
1887

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++++Message 5141. . . . . . . . . . . . John Seiberling, 89, former US Rep.
& son of Henrietta Seiberling dies
From: aadavidi . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/2/2008 1:41:00 PM

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John Seiberling, 89, former US Representative
& son of Henrietta Seiberling dies

Longtime Akron Congressman John F. Seiberling
died about 7 a.m. today of respiratory failure
at his home in Copley.

Mr. Seiberling, 89, represented the old
Akron-based 14th Congressional District from
1971 through 1986. He is considered the man
responsible for creation of the Cuyahoga Valley
National Park between Akron and Cleveland in
1974.

A liberal New Deal Democrat, he fought for
wilderness and historic preservation, arms
control, free trade and world peace, and he
worked tirelessly in a bipartisan way to get
things done.

He was able to provide Akron with a new
federal courthouse and post office and found
federal money for many projects, including
Quaker Square, Akron-Canton Airport and the
Goodyear Technical Center.

In Congress, Mr. Seiberling chaired the House
Interior Committee's public lands and national
parks subcommittee. He played a key role in
preserving 129 million acres of wilderness
and park land, including 54 million acres of
Alaskan wilderness.

He also play a critical role in passage of
the federal surface mining reclamation act in
1977 and in enlarging the federal Land and
Water Conservation Fund in 1976. He fought to
eliminate acid rain.

In 1974, Mr. Seiberling served on the House
Judiciary Committee that held the impeachment
hearings against President Richard M. Nixon,
leading to his resignation.

It was Mr. Seiberling's opposition to the
Vietnam War that spurred the 17-year corporate
attorney for Goodyear to run for Congress.
While at Goodyear, he sided with union workers,
taking a leave of absence rather than cross
their picket lines.

He married Elizabeth ''Betty'' Behr in 1949.
They have three sons: John B., David and
Stephen, and a grandson, Evan.

A memorial service for Mr. Seiberling will be
held in late August or early September.

By Bob Downing
Beacon Journal staff writer

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++++Message 5142. . . . . . . . . . . . AP: former Ohio Congressman John
Seiberling dies at 89
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/3/2008 8:50:00 PM

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The Associated Press: Former Ohio Congressman
John Seiberling dies at 89

From Mel Barger <melb@access-toledo.com>
(melb at access-toledo.com)

COPLEY, Ohio (AP) — Former Rep. John F.
Seiberling, who served on the committee that
led impeachment hearings against President
Richard Nixon and laid the groundwork for
Ohio's only national park, died Saturday.
He was 89.

Seiberling died of respiratory failure at his
home near Akron after a long illness, said
his wife, Betty Seiberling.

Seiberling, a Democrat, had been a corporate
attorney for Akron-based Goodyear Tire & Rubber
Co. for 17 years when he decided to run for
Congress in 1970 because of his opposition
to the Vietnam War. He unseated longtime
Republican Rep. William Ayres.

Seiberling led a House subcommittee on public
lands and national parks that preserved 129
million acres, including areas in Alaska and
the area in northeastern Ohio that eventually
became Cuyahoga Valley National Park.

In 1974, Seiberling was a member of the House
Judiciary Committee as it led the impeachment
hearings against Nixon, who resigned from
office before a vote was taken.

After retiring from Congress in 1987,
Seiberling taught at the University of Akron
School of Law and directed the university's
Center for Peace Studies.

A private funeral is planned.

Copyright © 2008 The Associated Press.
All rights reserved.

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++++Message 5143. . . . . . . . . . . . John Seiberling
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/3/2008 8:50:00 PM

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From "Mel B." <melb@buckeye-access.com>
(melb at buckeye-access.com)

This might be of interest to History Lovers.
What follows is the Wikipedia item on John
Seiberling, who died August 2 at 89. Note
that his mother Henrietta is mentioned as
well as her connection to AA.

John did take an interest in AA and sometimes
came to certain AA events in Akron. I met
him at least once and also talked with him
by phone. At one time, he represented his
mother at an Akron AA event and told the story
of her bringing Bill and Bob together. John
had two sisters; I interviewed one in New York
back around 1980.

Mel Barger

- - - -

From Glenn C.: see photo of John Seiberling
at http://hindsfoot.org/photos1.html

- - - -

John F. Seiberling
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

John Frederick Seiberling (September 8, 1918
-- August 2, 2008) was a United States
Representative from Ohio. In 1974, he helped
to establish what later became of the Cuyahoga
Valley National Park, and served on the House
Judiciary Committee that held the impeachment
hearings against President Richard Nixon.[1]

Born in Akron, Ohio, Seiberling attended the
public schools of Akron, and Staunton Military
Academy in Virginia. He received his A.B. from
Harvard University in 1941.

During World War II he served in the United
States Army from 1942 to 1946. He was
subsequently awarded the Legion of Merit
for his participation in the Allied planning
of the D-Day invasion.[2]

Seiberling received his LL.B. from Columbia
Law School in 1949. In 1950, Seiblerling was
admitted to the New York bar and went into
private practice. He became an associate with
a New York firm from 1949 to 1954, and then
became a volunteer with the New York Legal
Aid Society in 1950. He served as a corporate
attorney in private industry from 1954 to 1970,
including working as a corporate attorney for
the Goodyear Tire and Rubber Company.[2] During
this time he was a member of the Tri-County
Regional Planning Commission in Akron from
1964 to 1970.

Seiberling was elected as a Democrat to the
Ninety-second and to the seven succeeding
Congresses, serving the 14th district from
January 3, 1971 to January 3, 1987. His
political legacy includes enacting bipartisan
environmental protections and participating
in a 1975 Congressional delegation to the
Middle East that helped precipitate the 1979
Israel-Egypt Peace Treaty.[2] Seiberling was
not a candidate for reelection to the One
Hundredth Congress in 1986.

After his time in Congress, Seiberling served
as faculty at the law school of the University
of Akron from 1992 to 1996.

On Thursday, October 12, 2006, President
George W. Bush signed into law H.R. 6051,
which designates the Federal building and
United States courthouse in Akron as the
John F. Seiberling Federal Building and
United States Courthouse.[3] Seiberling died
of respiratory failure at his home in Copley,
Ohio on August 2, 2008.[1]

John Seiberling's cousin, Francis Seiberling,
was also a U.S. Representative from Ohio
(Republican).

His mother, Henrietta Buckler Seiberling, was
a seminal figure in Alcoholics Anonymous'
founding and core spiritual ideals.[4][5]
His paternal grandfather was Frank A.
Seiberling, founder of the Goodyear Tire
and Rubber Company.[4] The family's one-time
home, Stan Hywet, is now a national museum.[4]

NOTES

1. ^ a b Downing, Bob (2008-08-02). "John
Seiberling is dead at 89", Akron Beacon
Journal. Retrieved on 2008-08-02.
2. ^ a b c Walker Snider (2005).
3. ^ President Designates United States
Postal Service, Courthouse and Federal
Building Facilities
4. ^ a b c University of Akron (n.d.).
5. ^ www.aabibliography.com (n.d.).

REFERENCES

John F. Seiberling at the Biographical
Directory of the United States Congress
University of Akron (n.d.).
Henrietta Buckler Seiberling, 1888-1979.
Retrieved 2007-11-20 from "Akron Women's
History" at
http://www3.uakron.edu/schlcomm/womenshistory/seiberling_h.htm. [19]
Walker Snider,Jane (2005). Profiles in Service:
John & Betty Seiberling. Retrieved 2007-11-20
from "Akron Council on World Affairs" at
http://www.akronworldaffairs.org/newsletter/features/seiberling.html.
www.aabibliography (n.d.). Henrietta Buckler
Seiberling (1888-1979). Retrieved 2007-11-20
from "An Illustrated Alcoholic Anonymous
Bibliography" at
http://www.aabibliography.com/henrietta_buckler_seiberling.htm.

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++++Message 5144. . . . . . . . . . . . An American hero dies: John
Seiberling
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/3/2008 9:21:00 PM

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From: "John Blair" <jblair@wmis.net>
(jblair at wmis.net)

An American hero dies: John Seiberling

http://www.ohio.com/news/26217469.html?page=all&c=y

JOHN FREDERICK SEIBERLING 1918-2008

'An American hero' dies

Retired congressman who represented Akron for 16 years praised for his
tireless
work creating Cuyahoga Valley park, preserving wilderness

By Bob Downing
Beacon Journal staff writer

Published on Sunday, Aug 03, 2008

John F. Seiberling, the retired Akron congressman who helped create the
Cuyahoga
Valley National Recreation Area, died Saturday morning at his home in Copley
Township.

He was 89.

Mr. Seiberling, who was born in Stan Hywet Hall but represented blue-collar
Akron in the U.S. House of Representatives for 16 years, was remembered by
some
as the conscience of Congress and by others as one of America's great
conservationists.

His death was attributed to respiratory failure caused by chronic lung
disease.
He had been hospitalized June 29 but was released to go home, where he died
about 7 a.m. Saturday.

''Without John Seiberling, there would be no Cuyahoga Valley National
Park,''
said U.S. Rep. Ralph Regula, R-Navarre.

''He was a good person . . . and he left a great legacy in the Cuyahoga
Valley
park.

''He was the original environmentalist. He was green way back when. He
really
was ahead of his time. . . . He was a man of integrity and made his
decisions
based on what was right, not for their political value. And he cared deeply
for
the country and its people.''

Mr. Seiberling represented the old Akron-based 14th District in Congress
from
1971 through 1986, frequently winning re-election with 70 percent of the
vote.

He was a liberal New Deal Democrat, a supporter of wilderness, arms control,
free trade, world peace and historic preservation. He was a fan of
Shakespeare,
poetry and bawdy limericks, as well as an accomplished nature photographer
and a
lover of The Wind in the Willows.

He was soft-spoken and reserved yet strong willed and at times feisty. He
looked
at the big picture, although he was a man of detail. Known for his calm,
statesmanlike approach, he operated with caution and dignity, without
flamboyance. He was known for his dry wit, intellect, idealism and
integrity.

He was a loner and proudly operated outside the political system, refusing
to be
one of the boys, to join the congressional club. Behind his back, staff and
supporters called him St. John.

Before Congress, during his 17 years as an attorney for the Goodyear Tire &
Rubber Co. — the company his grandfather founded — Mr. Seiberling once
took a
leave of absence to avoid crossing United Rubber Worker union picket lines.
That's because he sided with the union at that time.

And in the wake of the May 4, 1970, shootings at nearby Kent State
University,
Mr. Seiberling ignored the political risks and warnings of advisers to speak
at
a rally at the University of Akron, advising students there to keep their
protests peaceful.

It was his opposition to the Vietnam War that led Mr. Seiberling to run for
Congress in 1970, defeating 10-term Republican incumbent William Ayers to
become
a 51-year-old rookie.

Mr. Seiberling served on the House Judiciary Committee that conducted the
1974
impeachment hearings that led to the resignation of President Richard Nixon.

And in his 1986 congressional hearings to probe the proposed takeover of
Goodyear by raider Sir James Goldsmith, it was Mr. Seiberling who drew the
loudest cheers from Akron when he confronted Goldsmith with the question:
''Who
the hell are you?''

Part of Mr. Seiberling's success as a congressman was attributed to his
ability
to work with local and federal officials in a bipartisan effort.

He got Akron a new federal courthouse and a new post office. He twice found
federal money for the city's now-closed trash-burning power plant, as well
as
funds for Quaker Square, the Akron-Canton Airport, the Goodyear Technical
Center
and various other projects.

''I'm not sure any of us can adequately measure with words the immense
contributions John has made,'' said Akron Mayor Don Plusquellic. ''The true
value of his work will continue to reside in his legacy and will be enjoyed
by
and for many, many generations to come. His is the work of a remarkable
public
servant with a most generous spirit and creative mind. John Seiberling and
his
family have helped build and sustain this city.''

''John Seiberling was a darn good congressman,'' Summit County Republican
Party
Chairman Alex Arshinkoff told a reporter after Seiberling retired. ''If I
were a
liberal Democrat, I'd say he was a great congressman.''

Mr. Seiberling also left his mark far beyond Akron, stretching across the
American West and Alaska.

''John Seiberling stands as a giant in terms of managing public lands . . .
an
American hero,'' said John Debo, superintendent of the Cuyahoga Valley
National
Park. ''What he did was really extraordinary, and he truly was one of
America's
great conservationists.''

Right man, right time

He was a key figure in Congress in the 1970s and 1980s and played a key role
in
preserving America's wild lands — with his constituents not always aware
of the
issues and what was going on, said Dan Nelson of Bath Township, an emeritus
history professor at the University of Akron and author of A Passion for the
Land: John F. Seiberling and the Environmental Movement (to be published
next
year by Kent State University Press).

''Getting the Cuyahoga Valley park created in 1974 only whetted his
appetite. He
got involved in Alaska and wilderness lands. . . . He was the right man at
the
right time to get a lot accomplished,'' Nelson said.

Doug Scott of Seattle, a wilderness author and policy director for Campaign
for
America's Wilderness, said Mr. Seiberling should rank among the very top
conservationists in the 20th century. Scott worked with Mr. Seiberling on
wilderness measures while with the Sierra Club and wrote The Enduring
Wilderness: Protecting Our National Heritage Through the Wilderness Act.

''Wilderness was his passion,'' Scott said. ''And that legacy will touch all
Americans for generations. . . . He truly was an American giant.''

Over the years, Mr. Seiberling served as chairman of the Interior
Committee's
public lands and national parks subcommittee and pushed 33 bills for 250 new
and
expanded wilderness areas in 27 states.

In 1980, he and U.S. Rep. Morris Udall, D-Ariz., led the fight to approve
federal protection for 103 million acres under the Alaska National Interest
Lands Conservation Act.

In all, Mr. Seiberling played a key role in preserving 69 million acres of
wilderness — that included 54 million acres in Alaska — in addition to
59
million acres of other federal parks, forests and preserves.

Mr. Seiberling made his first trip to Alaska in 1975 and came away
impressed.

In 1977, he held congressional hearings across that state, helping him
develop a
photo collection of more than 3,000 Alaskan shots. He exhibited his photos
in
the Capital during the 1978 debate and said the photos helped sway members
of
Congress.

He was widely saluted by national environmental groups for his efforts to
save
the American wilderness — efforts that earned him opposition from some
Western
and Alaskan politicians.

Bruce Hamilton, deputy executive director for the national Sierra Club,
compared
the significance of Mr. Seiberling's efforts for Alaska to President
Theodore
Roosevelt's creation of the national forests.

The Alaskan legislation was ''a tribute to Seiberling's persistence and
statesmanship,'' he said.

''He was the expert and made quite the difference. . . . Every wilderness
advocate in the country knew him and worshipped him,'' Hamilton said in a
telephone interview from San Francisco. ''Most considered John Seiberling to
be
their second congressman.''

Conservationist is born

Mr. Seiberling's desire to save wild America may be traced to a childhood
experience on a family vacation to an island in Lake Huron. On a return
trip,
the mainland forest near Hessel, Mich., had disappeared. The giant white
pines
had been cut to be turned into matchsticks.

Later, in a quote still cited by his ex-staffers, Mr. Seiberling said:

''We will never see the land as our ancestors did. But we can understand
what
made it beautiful and why they lived and died to preserve it. And in
preserving
it for future generations, we will preserve something of ourselves. If we
all
have an interest in this land, then we all have a stake in its preservation.
There is no more worthwhile cause.''

His associates said the words were reflective of his goals.

But Mr. Seiberling was proudest of spearheading the creation of the Cuyahoga
Valley park in 1974.

In 1971, as a rookie legislator, Mr. Seiberling's efforts to help sponsor
legislation to create a national park between Akron and Cleveland went
nowhere.

In subsequent years, though, he introduced the measure and worked to build
public support for saving the Cuyahoga Valley.

Debo, the park's superintendent, said Mr. Seiberling ''had the foresight and
the
ability to galvanize public support to preserve the valley. It was an
incredible
accomplishment.''

Not everyone supported the idea. The National Park Service didn't think the
Cuyahoga Valley deserved federal protection.

And even after winning approval in Congress, the legislation came perilously
close to dying. With President Gerald Ford on a ski vacation in Colorado,
federal officials, opposed to a high-cost urban park, were urging a veto.

Mr. Seiberling called Regula, who got an emergency phone call placed to Ford
by
Akron's Ray Bliss, the influential former national chairman of the
Republican
Party. Other calls went to U.S. Sens. Robert Taft Jr. and Howard Metzenbaum,
as
well as former Goodyear Chairman E. J. Thomas.

Bliss told Ford that he should sign the legislation if he wanted to win Ohio
and
to veto it if he wanted to lose Ohio.

Ford signed the bill on Dec. 27, 1974.

Mr. Seiberling called Ford's approval a Christmas gift for people in
Northeast
Ohio. In later years, he said the park was far more than he ever expected.

Mr. Seiberling also protected the park from Ronald Reagan's secretary of the
interior, James Watt, who wanted to eliminate it as a federal park in the
1980s.

Mr. Seiberling also played key roles in the 1977 federal surface-mining
reclamation act and a 1976 bill enlarging the federal Land and Water
Conservation Fund. He also pushed to eliminate acid rain in clean-air
legislation.

He was unsuccessful in an effort to have federal judges selected on merit
instead of political appointment, and to create a youth job corps.

He aggressively fought President Reagan over federal budget cuts in the
early
1980s.

His influence was felt beyond U.S. shores. He played key roles in Congress
in
the birth of nations: the Republic of the Marshall Islands, the Republic of
Palau and the Federated States of Micronesia.

His staff saw Mr. Seiberling as ''this cuddly distinguished college
professor
whom we all loved,'' said Andrew Wiessner, a one-time staffer and now a
retired
public lands consultant in Colorado.

Issues instead of politics

Mr. Seiberling was different: He was the nonpolitical congressman, a good
and
dedicated public servant, Wiessner said.

''He looked at the issues, not the politics,'' Wiessner said ''There was a
gentle way about him. He was so scholarly and so thorough''

Long-time Seiberling staffer Loretta Neumann added: ''He really was a
Renaissance man, an amazing man, a giant. . . . Everyone who ever worked for
him
said it was the best job they ever had, and that was true for me, too. . . .
He
was the right person at the right place at the right time to do the things
he
did.''

Neumann, who came to Mr. Seiberling's staff from the National Park Service,
said
he hired her mainly to get the park established.

''At the time, I knew nothing about the workings of Congress.'' she said.
''When
I first met him, I told him so. 'Don't worry,' he said. 'I need you to teach
me
about parks. I can teach you what you need to know about Congress.' ''

State Sen. Tom Sawyer, D-Akron, who succeeded Mr. Seiberling in Congress,
said
he knew Mr. Seiberling ''virtually my entire political life.''

''He was a commanding figure throughout this community and as soon as I got
to
Washington, it was clear as it had ever been that he was beloved by the
people
who knew him best,'' Sawyer said.

He had an ''enormous respect for the rule of law and love of nation,''
Sawyer
said, and his respect for the environment went beyond Northeast Ohio in a
way
that ''will be remembered for generations.''

After serving in Congress, Mr. Seiberling returned to Akron to practice law,
teach law and direct the University of Akron's Center for Peace Studies for
51/2
years, until mid-1996. He also returned to enjoy the Cuyahoga Valley from
his
long-time home at the edge of the park in Bath Township. He and his wife
later
moved to a Copley Township condominium.

He earned countless honors over the years, including the Bert A. Polsky
Humanitarian Award from the Akron Community Foundation in 1999.

He attributed his love of nature to his father, John F. Seiberling Sr. But
he
frequently said the most influential person in his life was his mother,
Henrietta, who died in 1979.

His mother was described as a formidable woman of strong moral conviction
— a
churchgoer who introduced Bill Wilson of New York and Dr. Robert Smith of
Akron
in 1935. They went on to found Alcoholics Anonymous in Akron.

Getting an education

Mr. Seiberling attended King Elementary School and Buchtel High School in
Akron
before going to Staunton Military Academy in Staunton, Va.

He graduated from Harvard University in 1941.

During World War II, he served in the Army from 1942 to 1946, fighting in
Europe. He enlisted as a private and attained the rank of major. He earned
the
Legion of Merit, the Bronze Star and three Battle Stars. He also earned the
Medaille de la Reconnaissance Francaise (France) and the Ordre de Leopold II
(Belgium).

After his discharge, he earned a law degree at Columbia University in New
York
in 1949.

From 1949 to 1954, he practiced law with Donovan, Leisure, Newton and Irvine
in
New York City.

He joined Goodyear in Akron in 1954 and remained here until he went to
Congress
in 1971.

Locally, Mr. Seiberling was a member of the Akron Regional Development Board
and
the Akron Metropolitan Housing Authority. He was a three-term president of
the
Akron-based Tri-County Regional Planning Commission.

He was a member of the United Community Council of Summit County, the Stan
Hywet
Hall Foundation, the United World Federalists of Akron and the Akron Bar
Association's World Peace Through Law committee.

He was a founder of the Summit County Committee for Peace in Vietnam and a
member of the local Sierra Club and the Cuyahoga Valley Association.

In 1949, he married Elizabeth ''Betty'' Behr, a Vassar graduate. They shared
the
same interests, the same priorities, the same outlook for 59 years of
marriage.

She actually met her future husband while at Vassar through his sister, who
was
a student there. They had their first date in Paris in 1945 — at an
officer's
mess.

He proposed during his last year of law school in New York. She later told
reporters she accepted his proposal in part because he had respect for
women's
intellectual capabilities.

In addition to his wife, he is survived by their three sons, John B. of
Washington, D.C., David of Akron and Stephen of Chapel Hill, N.C.; and one
grandson, Evan. He also leaves sisters Dorothy Seiberling of Long Island,
N.Y.,
and Mary S. Huhn of Pennsylvania.

A memorial service is planned for late August or early September.

Billow funeral home in Fairlawn is handling arrangements.

- - - -

Bob Downing can be reached at 330/996/3745 or
<bdowning@thebeaconjournal.com>
(bdowning at thebeaconjournal.com)

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++++Message 5145. . . . . . . . . . . . Missing citation to "Dr Bob and the
Good Old Timers"
From: serenityodaat . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/2/2008 5:49:00 AM

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Hiya group!

I´m translating an article on beginner classes
http://www.aa-goteborg.se/katrinelund/docs/historyBeginnerclasses.pdf
into Swedish. In the beginning of the text it
makes a reference to page 261 in "Dr Bob and
the Good Old Timers":

"In the book 'Dr. Bob and the Good Old-timers'
it states on page 261, "Yes, Cleveland's
results were the best. Their results were in
fact so good that many a Clevelander really
though AA had started there in the first
place. Over half of the fellowship was from
Cleveland up and through the mid-1940s."

I've read thru the entire chapter without
finding this text... My book is the 23rd
printing from 2003. Can anyone please help
me finding this text?

Thanx!

AlkyAndy aka Anders from Gothenburg, Sweden

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++++Message 5146. . . . . . . . . . . . Who wrote the Foreward to the 2nd
edit. of the Big Book?
From: bruceken@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/30/2008 9:12:00 PM

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Who wrote the foreward to the second edition
of the Big Book, the longest of the Forewards?

As I understand it, the General Service
Structure had been set up by 1955 -- before
the second edition of the book was published.

The question has to do with whether or not
the Foreward to the second edition was written
by Bill Wilson, or by a General Service
Committee -- writers other than Bill --
as it was in later editions.

Can anyone answer that question for me?

Bruce Kennedy
San Francisco

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++++Message 5147. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr Silkworth''s signature
missing from the 1st edition BB
From: james.bliss@comcast.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/31/2008 5:58:00 PM

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The first edition of the second printing was
when his name appeared:

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/4724

Yes, it was to avoid the potential issue of
having his name associated with Alcoholics
Anonymous at that time which prevented it
from being printed in the first edition.

- - - -

From: "wantarug" <gttdkt@sbcglobal.net>
(gttdkt at sbcglobal.net)

The various authors did not SIGN their names
and their actual signatures were not
reproduced in any editions of the Big Book.

Don't you really mean author byline instead
of signature?

Thanks,
Dona T
Houston

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++++Message 5148. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Barry L. and Bill W''s copy of
the Big Book manuscript
From: diazeztone . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/31/2008 9:49:00 PM

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PHOTO OF BARRY LEACH

Mel Barger wrote that:

> was virtually a son to Lois and accompanied her
> or her trips. I took a photo of her greeting
> Jack Bailey in Akron in 1978, with Barry
> standing behind her. This is the only
> photo I have of Barry, and I wish another
> was available.
>
> Mel

- - - -

Mel,

You sent me the photo and I added it to the
Barry Leach page:

http://www.aabibliography.com/barry_leach_living_sober.html

LD Pierce
aabibliography.com

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++++Message 5149. . . . . . . . . . . . Larry Jewell - AA in Houston
From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/1/2008 4:46:00 PM

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Can anyone tell me more about Larry J? I know
he wrote that the six articles that appeared
in the Houston Press and I am familiar
with "The First AA Pamphlet".

What is Larry's history post 1940?

Any info available on fate of the pamphlet?

This pamphlet appears to be the origin of
"spiritual not religious," printed as "not
religious, but spiritual" in the 4th article.

Does anyone have any additional information
on this?

I am trying to research the history of the
description of AA as "Spiritual not Religious"
as used by either the pioneers such as
Larry J or in AA literature.

Any help is appreciated.

God Bless

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++++Message 5150. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill Wilson''s morning prayer --
Swedenborgian elements
From: ac1799_4 . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/31/2008 7:51:00 AM

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Hello, I'm replying to this question at
bottom of this msg:

>> ANY ECHOES HERE OF SWEDENBORGIAN LITURGY?
>>
>> From: Baileygc23@...
>> (Baileygc23 at aol.com)
>>
>> Has this prayer anything to do with
>> Swedenborgianism?

Here I give you a repost and re-edit with an amplification of statements
I made on July 28. I've received two emails from that by members
already intrigued by the Swedenborg/Burnham/Wilson connections that they
were aware of already.

To set this up, Lois and Bill were married in a Swedenborgian church
in Brooklyn. Lois' maiden name is Burnham. She was raised in devout
Swedenborgian family. Her grampa was a noted translator and scholar in
this sect. This New Church was NOT a part of New Thought, as Writings
were made in mid-1700s. It maintains that ES received revelations [all
knowledge for us from God is revelation, since He is spirit and we are
natural] explaining Scriptures at a 'spiritual and the celestial
level'. New Church has high view of Bible and high view of Christ as
God, so is not part of metaphysical movement, although somehow
Swedenborg became associated with birth of metaphysics a century later.

I'm a Swedenborgian Christian; I discovered Emanuel Swedenborg and
his Writings 3 years ago. I was already a Christian since 1970 and
because of the clarities on how faith/truth and charity/good work
together, I've moved from a narrower, strident Christianity into
Swedenborgian 'faith'. I am also in recovery 8.5 years, and Swedenborg
teachings have been helpful past 3 years: such as emphasis on what we
in AA call 'service work' & what the New Church calls Uses, or New
Church emphasis on what we call 'doing the next right thing'.

Yes indeed there are many interesting parallels between how AA works
& Swedenborgian concepts and theology. And interestingly, in my life in
first 4 years of recovery, AA meetings and steps helped restructure the
bricks of my spiritual/religious foundation into an effective 'faith'
within my Christianity that Big Book says many of us return to. In fact
I don't think God allowed me to find the Writings UNTIL AA had been able
to restructure my views on how He worked with us. I would not have been
spiritully fit to grasp the Writings.

After giving the 3 things in Bill Wilson's prayer that may be
Swedenborgian, I AM listing some other AA/Swedenborgian quotes side by
side. May they bless and intrigue you as they do me.

Anyway to respond to Baileycg23 of June 13 or so, the 3 things that
stand out to me that are Swedenborgian in the prayer [posted at bottom]
are:

1. the volume Heaven and Hell [probably ES' most read book] discusses
all the Societies, Communities in the heavens. Yes there are 3 heavens,
and we are grouped according to our Loves and also put with others who
are similar to us in spirit, so to speak. So there is that notion of the
many mansions being spiritual homes in the heavens, and we have
spiritual bodies that inhabit them. Does 'Societies' refer to AA
communities here? I have no idea. But it is curious that his prayer
references grace to "be discovered by family and friends -- those here
and those beyond" - so they would be Societies in the beyond too,
wouldn't they?

2. Lois indeed would have loved the end of that prayer (quote: Lois, who
remained deeply in love with Bill for her entire adult life, said, years
after his death: 'That business about no separation between ourselves is
something that I cherish.') as it is an allusion, I believe, to the
Swedenborgian teaching that marriage continues after death.
[It is suspected by scholars, from my research, that Smith the founder
of the Mormons read some Swedenborg, and 'borrowed' this idea. New
Thought Movement teachers borrowed from the Writings of Swedenborg too,
but didn't keep his intent. A discussion on how and why the New Thought
Movement borrowed from and harmed Swedenborg's intent must wait for some
other discussion]

Anyway, Swedenborg introduced this concept of a united marriage (of
spiritual as well as natural bonds continuing in heaven) in 1700s, and
his volume Conjugial Love [not conjugal but 'conjugial'] is a beautiful
complex description of love, marriage, unity with God, how God works
with mankind and so much more.

(Swedenborg had to, on occasion, invent new words since none existed for
the concepts he had been introduced to in the spirit world.)
So in summary you see, Lois would have been well-acquainted with, and
comforted by this belief in a reunion with Bill, a marriage in heaven
since two continue 'to become one' ideally for eternity.

3. This quote 'May we find and do Thy will in good strength, in good
cheer today.' could be a reference to being Useful, being of service to
others, getting set free from self by being other-directed. It is
significant to me that Bill Wilson would insert such a statement into
the family prayer.

Swedenborgianism emphasizes changed behavior [reformation] and doing the
right thing even if you don't feel like it. When it becomes a part of
us, as we get into the later steps, that would equate to Regeneration.
We do the right things because we love God and love His freedom. We no
longer are doing 'right things' because the sponsor says to, or from
fear of consequences, or other 'natural' motives. When we do the right
thing in the 'natural' mind and understanding, it opens a reciprocal
relationship & flow between me and God. This Reformation evolves into
Regeneration in this life as my relationship with God grows and I want
to do His Will, rather than having to obey Him [or my sponsor HA].

Now as promised above, here are some Swedenborgian quotes to help you
grasp how curiously the AA phrases and concepts mirror what a theologian
and seer from 1750 wrote:

============================================
Faith without works is dead. Book of James
"Faith without love is dead, and faith with love is living." AC9050
"There is action and more action. 'Faith without works is dead'"
Big Book, pg 88
"Faith has to work twenty-four hours a day in and through us, or we
perish"
Big Book pg. 16
"Now we need more action, without which we find that 'Faith without
works
is dead'....If we haven't the will to do this, we ask until it comes."
Big Book pg 76

"He may be an example of the truth that faith alone is insufficient. To
be vital, faith must be accompanied by self sacrifice and unselfish,
constructive action."
Big Book, pg 93 last paragraph. (I personally wonder if the term
'faith alone' is put here on purpose, as Swedenborg protested the
doctrine as being incomplete without good/charity/uses/love accompanying
it. Bill would have known of this technical doctrinal phrase not only
from Swedenborg via Lois or his own readings, but by discussions with
Shoemaker or the many other Christian leaders that influenced him. He
rejects 'faith alone' in a crystal clear way, just as Swedenborg does in
his masterpiece 2 volume work True Christian Religion)
(I'm not trying to stir up any doctrinal debate here; the point is to
equate AA literature with literature written 180 years before it)
=========================================
........An easier, softer way.......
"You cannot have humility when you love only yourself. Self–love
is hard, and love to the Divine is soft. Self–love must be wholly
crushed."
Spiritual Experiences 4754 Emanuel Swedenborg
"The delusion that we are like other people, or presently may be, has
to be smashed." Big Book, pg. 30
===========================================
......."the drinking life is the only life he can imagine" - AA quote.
'...the alcoholic life seems to be the only normal one' xxvi

'The real is distinguished from the not real in this--that the real is
actually such as it appears, and that the not real is actually not such
as it appears.' Arcana Coelestia 4623 [Latin for Heavenly Secrets or
Secrets of Heaven]
============================================
A day at a time:
"When we diligently try to follow the truth,
as we are given to see it, the Lord inflows with good
and when He is present concern for the future is dissipated. Our fears
become replaced with a supreme trust in His providence. A newfound
confidence in the Lord's power is born, and that confidence inmostly
prevails regardless of the trials and misfortunes by which we may be
confronted periodically. A person who tries to do what is good places
him
or herself into "the stream of providence and is carried along
constantly
towards happier things. Those in the stream of providence are people who
trust in the Divine and ascribe everything to Him." (Arcana 8478)

Altogether different is it with those who trust in the Divine. Though
they
have care for the morrow, yet they have it not; for they do not think of
the morrow with solicitude, still less with anxiety. Whether they get
what they wish or not, they are composed, not lamenting over losses,
but being content with their lot. If they become rich, they do not set
their hearts upon riches. If they are exalted to honors, they do not
look upon themselves as worthier than others. If they become poor,
they are not cast down. If their condition be mean, they are not
dejected. They know that with those who put their trust in the Divine,
all things work toward a happy state to eternity.
-- Arcana Coelestia, n._ 8478
========================================
GOD - Good Orderly Direction -
"One receives faith by approaching the Lord, learning truths [as if]
from the Word,
and living according to them."
True Christian Religion 343 Emanuel Swedenborg
==========================================

did Dr. Silkworth read Swedenborg? '.......Cannot after a time
differentiate the true from the false', pg. xxvi of The Doctor's
Opinion:
"I once heard spirits speaking together of the fact that whatever is
adopted as a principle, no matter what it may be, can be confirmed by
innumerable things, until at length, to the man who has confirmed
himself, it appears entirely true even though false; and that men
can be more easily persuaded of a falsity than of a truth." AC 2477

"A persuasion of falsity extinguishes and as it were suffocates
everything spiritual and celestial; as everyone may know from much
experience, if he pays attention." AC 806
==========================================
How step 4 works:
"...but as soon as a man on self-examination confesses evils to be sins
against God because they are contrary to Divine laws and accordingly
resolves to desist from them, the Lord opens the spiritual mind, enters
the natural by affections of truth and good, enters the reason, and by
the reason puts into order what is disordered below in the natural. It
is this that strikes the man as a battle, and strikes those who have
indulged much in enjoyments of evil as temptation, for when the order
of its thinking is inverted the lower mind suffers pain."
~Divine Providence 147 Emanuel Swedenborg
=================
How step 7 works:
"To the extent that you detest evil, goodness enters
you from heaven. To the extent that you detest
promiscuity, what is chaste enters; to the extent that
you detest frauds and unlawful gains, sincerity and
justice enter; to the extent that you detest hatred
and revenge, lovingkindness enters; to the extent that
you detest lies and blasphemies, truth enters; and to
the extent that you detest arrogance, humility before
God and love of your neighbor as yourself enter. To
shun evil is to do what is good."
Apocalypse Explained 803 Emanuel Swedenborg

"A person who knows all that is good and all that is true – as
much as can be known – but does not resist evils, knows
nothing."
Apocalypse Explained 1180 Emanuel Swedenborg
==========================================
''..... afraid I will lose something I have, or not get something I
want'.....
from 12x12 on step 7
"It is not contrary to order to look out for one's self and one's
dependents. Those have "care for the morrow" who are not content with
their lot, who do not trust in the Divine but themselves, and who
regard only worldly and earthly things and not heavenly. With such
there prevails universally a solicitude about things future, a desire
to possess everything, and to rule over all. They grieve if they do
not get what they desire, and suffer torment when they lose what they
have. Then they grow angry with the Divine, rejecting it together
with everything of faith, and cursing themselves."
-- Arcana Coelestia, 8478
====================================
Trust God, Clean House, Help Others - Dr. Bob
Clean House -
"Nothing else is required of man than to sweep the house; that is,
to reject the cupidities of evil and the derivative persuasions of
falsity [i.e., to clear away the earthly matter that chokes and closes].
AC 3142
==========================================

Defining and 'Doing the Next Right Thing':
". . . charity toward the neighbor extends
much more widely than to the poor and needy.
Charity toward the neighbor consists in
doing right in every work,and one's duty
in every office."
AC 8121 or Arcana Coelestia 8121
[Latin for Heavenly Secrets or Secrets of Heaven]
==================================================
WHY THERE IS SATISFACTION IN 'DOING NEXT RIGHT THING':
"It is the very feeling of delight itself, inherent in the love of
doing good apart from any thought of recompense, that is the reward
lasting to eternity."
Heavenly Doctrines of the New Jerusalem 236

Friends in AAHL, I could go on and on.
I hope that is helpful to some of you.

Keith Roloson in Hotlanta

- - - -

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com> ,
'Russ Stewart' <rstewart@...> wrote:
>
> 'Pass It On' pages 264 & 265
>
> <<During the days of the Oxford Group meetings,
> Bill and Lois Wilson had started the practice
> of holding a 'quiet time' each morning ....
> Lois described these quiet times: 'They'd
> last 15 minutes or so. We were in bed and
> we'd get up and I'd make coffee and we'd have
> coffee in bed, and then we'd say a prayer
> together .... This is the prayer composed by
> Bill and recited by the Wilson's at these
> times:
>
> 'Oh Lord, we thank Thee that Thou art, that
> we are from everlasting to everlasting.
> Blessed be Thy holy name and all Thy bene-
> factions to us of light, and of service.
> May we find and do Thy will in good strength,
> in good cheer today. May Thy ever-present
> grace be discovered by family and friends --
> those here and those beyond -- by our
> Societies throughout the world, by men and
> women everywhere, and among those who must
> lead in these troubled times. Oh Lord, we
> know Thee to be all wonder, all beauty, all
> glory, all power, all love. Indeed, Thou
> are everlasting love. Accordingly, Thou has
> fashioned for us a destiny passing through
> Thy many mansions, ever in more discovery of
> Thee and in no separation between ourselves.'>>
>
> 'Pass It On,' page 274 note 2:
>
> <<Lois, who remained deeply in love with Bill
> for her entire adult life, said, years after
> his death: 'That business about no separation
> between ourselves is something that I cherish.'>>
>
> - - - -
>
> Original message no. 5060 was from
> George Cleveland <pauguspass@...>
> (pauguspass at yahoo.com)
>
> Had a wonderful visit at Stepping Stones last
> Friday .... There was a wonderful prayer typed
> out and lying on the bed in the upstairs
> bedroom. It was said to be a prayer Bill used
> in the mornings .... what source suggests
> it was his morning prayer?
>
> - - - -
>
> ANY ECHOES HERE OF SWEDENBORGIAN LITURGY?
>
> From: Baileygc23@...
> (Baileygc23 at aol.com)
>
> Has this prayer anything to do with

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 5151. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Swedenborgianism: Lois W.''s
grandfather''s book
From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/1/2008 12:35:00 PM

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Lois and Bill were married January 24, 1918
at the Swedenborgian Church of the New
Jerusalem in Brooklyn, NY.

Her grandfather performed the ceremony and
her brother Rogers served as best man.

Cheers
Arthur

- - - -

Original Message from: mdingle76

I thought it would be of
interest for the group to know that Lois
Wilson's grandfather (who was a reverend in
the Swedenborgian Church - the Church of New
Jerusalem), wrote a book called "Discrete
Degrees," which can been viewed on
http://www.stepstudy.org

Matt D.

- - - -

STEPSTUDY.ORG GIVES A LINK TO THIS SITE:

- - - -

http://www.theisticscience.org/books/burnham/index.htm

DISCRETE DEGREES
IN
SUCCESSIVE AND SIMULTANEOUS ORDER

ILLUSTRATED BY DIAGRAMS

BY THE
REV. N.C. BURNHAM

PHILADELPHIA
THE ACADEMY OF THE NEW CHURCH
1821 WALLACE STREET
1887

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++++Message 5152. . . . . . . . . . . . Margaret Whaley died July 27, 2008
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/4/2008 2:51:00 PM

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Margaret Whaley (wife of Searcy Whaley)

From: "Doug B." <dougb@aahistory.com>
(dougb at aahistory.com)

Margaret B. Whaley passed away July 27, 2008,
at the age of 96, after a life of great joy,
friendship and service to others.

She and her deceased husband, Searcy R.
Whaley, founder in the mid-fifties of hospitals
and clinics for alcoholics, had both been long
time residents of Dallas, Texas.

Margaret resided at Presbyterian Village North
in Dallas at the time of her death.

She was born April 28, 1912 in St. Louis,
Missouri, to Mr. and Mrs. F.W. Bettle.
As a young child Margaret and her family
moved to Big Spring, Texas, where she grew
up and graduated from high school. She was
installed into the Order of Eastern Star in
Big Spring, Texas in 1944. She was one of
the earliest members of the Al-Anon family
group.

Margaret was a legal secretary in Big Spring
before her marriage to Searcy in 1934. She and
Searcy were married for more that 68 years
before he passed away in 2003. Both were
members of First Baptist Church Dallas.

Margaret is survived by her brother Clayton
Bettle and wife Alta Mae, nephew Jim Bettle
and wife Deborah of Delaware, nephew Dick
Bettle and wife Liz of Texas, niece Kay
Beaird of Texas, and niece Doris Jean Yates
of California.

A viewing and visitation will be held Friday,
August 1 from 12:00 noon until 1:30 PM at
Sparkman/Hillcrest Funeral Home.

A brief service at 2:00 PM will follow in the
chapel in celebration of Margaret’s life.
Interment will be at Mount Hope Cemetery in
Anson, Texas on Saturday, August 2, 2008, at
10:00 AM

In lieu of flowers, the family suggests that
donations be made in Margaret’s name to Texas
Clinic and Hospital for Alcoholism, PO Box
35865, Dallas, TX 75235.

Yours in the fellowship, Doug Barrie

http://www.aahistory.com

- - - -

From the moderator:

For her husband's obituary, see Message 1381
From Ed Adami <eadami@direcway.com>

Searcy Whaley (1910 - 2003) obituary in the
Fort Worth Star Telegram 10/2/2003
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/1381

A search of the message board for "Searcy"
will turn up 38 messages talking about
him and his role in AA history.

Glenn C.

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++++Message 5153. . . . . . . . . . . . Are there any Emmet Fox recordings?
From: pauguspass . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/30/2008 7:42:00 PM

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I've been numbing out my fingers trying to
find any recording of Emmet Fox. With so many
talks given, one would think some kind of
recording survives somewhere.

Any thoughts from the group?

George Cleveland

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++++Message 5154. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Harper & Brothers and the Big
Book
From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/29/2008 4:49:00 PM

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Hi Bailey

In April 1938 (possibly May/June) Bill W
wrote to Dr Bob that he had dictated and
mimeographed two book chapters. They were
"There Is A Solution" and "Bill's Story."
Bill suggested to Dr Bob that his wife Anne
write a chapter portraying the wife of an
alcoholic (Florence R of NY was also under
consideration to write the chapter). As it
later turned out, the chapter "To Wives" was
written by Bill W much to the dismay of his
wife Lois. Bill informed Dr Bob that nearly
everyone in NY favored the book title
"Alcoholics Anonymous." He asked Dr Bob how
he felt about forming a charitable corporation
called "Alcoholics Anonymous." Again, this
was almost a year prior to publication of the
Big Book.

The same two chapters were sent as a
prospectus to a number of people to show
what the book would be like and to help in
fundraising for the book project.

One of the recipients, Dr Esther L Richards
(of The Johns Hopkins Hospital in Baltimore)
in a July 18, 1938 letter wrote a very
favorable reply to Bill W regarding the
2-chapter book prospectus. The name given
in the prospectus for the book was "Alcoholics
Anonymous." Dr Richards also suggested to Bill
W "I think you should get an A No. 1 physician
who has a wide knowledge of the alcoholics
medical and social problems to write an
introduction.

Shortly after Dr Richardson's recommendation,
Dr William D Silkworth wrote a July 27, 1938
letter of support for use in fundraising for
the book. It was later incorporated into the
Big Book chapter "The Doctor's Opinion" along
with extracts from a medical journal article
that Silkworth later published in July 1939
titled "Psychological Rehabilitation of
Alcoholics."

Exman met with Bill W in September 1938 so
there may have been more material to review
but I believe it was still the chapters
"There Is A Solution" and "Bill's Story" that
Exman read and used to form the basis of his
making an advance offer to Bill on the rights
to the book.

Cheers
Arthur

- - - -

From: James Flynn <jdf10487@yahoo.com>
(jdf10487 at yahoo.com)

I am given to undestand based on a talk given
by Jimmy Burwell that was recorded in 1957
that the two chapters presented to Harper &
Brothers were Bill and Bob's stories.
According to Jimmy Burwell these were the
first two chapters written. Jimmy Burwell also
claimed during this recorded talk that an
offer of three thousand dollars was made to
complete the book, and that it was suggested
by Harper and Brothers that the book should
include an outline for a program of recovery
(aka How It Works). The AA conference approved
literature Pass It On and AA Comes of Age gives
a slightly different account of this story and
states that an advance of only $1500 dollars
was made to complete the book.

Jim F.

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++++Message 5155. . . . . . . . . . . . Harper and the Big Book: Bill W''s
original story
From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/29/2008 4:36:00 PM

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The question was asked, what were the first
two chapters of the Big Book that Bill W
presented to the publishers?

The answer seems to be "Bill's Story"
(originally meant to be Chapter 2) and
"There Is a Solution" (originally meant to
be Chapter 1).

If you would like to read or download the
original version of "Bill's Story," go to
http://www.4dgroups.org
and click 'Documents/Links,' then 'Documents':
http://www.4dgroups.org/index.php?option=com_weblinks&catid=14&Itemid=23

Then click on "Bill's Original Story"
http://www.4dgroups.org/Files/Docs/billorig.pdf

I also have copy of the original version of
"There Is A Solution" but it is not yet on
our Fourth Dimension Group website.

These extremely long and wordy drafts were
written in the spring of 1938.

Bob S.

Robert Stonebraker
212 SW 18th Street
Richmond, Indiana 47347
765/935/0130

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++++Message 5156. . . . . . . . . . . . Spirituality and religion -
afterthought
From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/2/2008 3:57:00 AM

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In its series World Spirituality, SCM Press -
"the UK's best-known publisher of academic
theology" - included the title Spirituality
and the Secular Quest (1996). The introduction
asserts: "Being religious is not a necessary
condition for being spiritual." There are
contributions on, e.g, sources in ancient
Greece and Rome, aestheticism, new age,
feminist and gay spiritualities, psychotherapy

- and, in a chapter written by Ernest Kurtz,
12 Step Spirituality, in which he says, "As a
true practice, AA's 'sobriety' consists in
living the Twelve Steps. Such sobriety is a
synonym for spirituality, even for what others
term sanctity."

He adds, "How do adherents to Twelve Step
programs understand 'spiritual rather than
religious'? Twelve Step programs do offer a
vision classically termed 'religious'. But
expressions of religion historically seem to
involve: (1) doctrines that require belief;
(2) rules that command or prohibit actions;
(3) an institutional authority that
formulates the doctrines and enforces
the rules; and (4) worship and ritual that
express reverence for the professed source
of all the above. Twelve Step programs
require none of these ..."

LAURIE ANDREWS

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++++Message 5157. . . . . . . . . . . . Numbers question: Jack Alexander vs.
Rollie Hemsley
From: Michael F. Margetis . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/5/2008 5:48:00 PM

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Hi all,

In E. Kurtz "Not God" on page 101 it says that
after publication of Jack Alexander's Saturday
Evening Post story (March 1941) AA's membership
went from 2,000 to 8,000 in the last ten months
of that year.

In Sally & David Brown's biography of Marty
Mann on page 181 it says that as a result of
Rollie Hemsley's anonymity break in 1940 "he
brought more people into AA than did the
Saturday Evening Post article a year later."

I'm either missing something or one of these
statements can't be right. Can anyone shed
some light on this?

Thank you,

Mike Margetis

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++++Message 5158. . . . . . . . . . . . Historical Timeline on AA.org web
Site
From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/5/2008 7:57:00 PM

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For the AAHistoryLovers who haven't checked
it out yet, please visit the link below and
view a very nicely constructed AA history
timeline (with images). It also has a search
function.

http://aa.org/aatimeline/

I believe the work was the brainchild of
Amy Filiatreau, past Archives Director at
AAWS. The staff that created the timeline
have done quite a nice job.

Also check out the link

http://www.aa.org/lang/en/subpage.cfm?page=6

Visit the AA.org web site and check it out.
There has been a splendid upgrade to the design
and aesthetics of the web pages - quite nice.

Cheers

Arthur

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++++Message 5159. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr Bob`s Big Book
From: Tommy . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/6/2008 7:21:00 AM

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Does anyone know what happened
to Dr. Bob's Big Book?

tks
Tommy

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++++Message 5160. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Larry Jewell - AA in Houston
From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/5/2008 10:57:00 AM

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I was send the L.J. articles with the following
footnote. Hope it is helpful:

Larry Jewell came to Houston from Cleveland
with only a Big Book and a Spiritual Experience
resulting from having taken the Steps while
hospitalized. His Sponsors were Dr. Bob Smith
& Clarence Snyder. He had not attended an A.A.
meeting before coming to Houston.

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++++Message 5161. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Larry Jewell - AA in Houston
From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/5/2008 10:05:00 AM

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Larry J did a remarkable job in getting AA started in Texas. The text below
is from Bob P's unpublished AA history manuscript. From what I've been able
to research, it appears to be factual with the exception of the year stated
for Larry's death. Sadly Larry returned to drinking and the use of narcotics
and it led to his death in 1944 (not 1943 as stated below).

Bob P's summary further fails to mention that Larry's Houston Press articles
also attracted the first Texas woman AA member, Benita C, who later married
Larry J. In April 1940, the Alcoholic Foundation reprinted Larry J's Houston
Press articles as AA's first pamphlet.

One of Larry's articles uses the phrase "not religious, but spiritual" but
in other places/articles he uses the term "religious" in a very positive
context to describe the program (the word "religious" didn't seem to have
the pejorative context then that many regrettably assign to it today - care
was always exercised to explain that AA did not identify itself with any
specific religious denomination). If you take into account Dr Silkworth's
July 1939 Lancet article which was also included (in its entirety in AA's
first pamphlet) the word "religious" is used frequently and in quite a
positive manner to describe the nature of AA's program of recovery. The
pamphlet also included Dr Fosdick's review of the Big Book where he states
"The core of their whole procedure is religious."

Cheers
Arthur

From Bob P:

The colorful early history of A.A. in the Lone Star State led Bill W. to
refer to it at the St. Louis Convention as "the astonishing state of Texas."
The story begins in Cleveland in 1939, where a newspaperman, Larry J., had
"drunk himself into the gutter." Louis Seltzer, editor of the Cleveland
Press, remembered him and sent a search party to find him, offering to pay
for his hospital recovery. They found him in freezing weather with no coat
on, one lung collapsed from earlier tuberculosis and the other with a tube
sticking out of it through his chest. At the sanatorium, Larry slowly
recovered from d.t.'s, malnutrition, exposure and exhaustion. Told he would
be better off where the weather was warmer, he boarded a train for Houston
with a copy of Alcoholics Anonymous in hand upon reading it en route, he had
a spiritual experience and determined to try to help alcoholics when he
arrived.

He sought out Allan C. Bartlett, editor of the Houston Press, and after a
two-hour talk, persuaded him to run a series of articles on A.A. which Larry
J. wrote anonymously. Impressed by his creative brilliance, Bartlett hired
him as an editorial writer. The articles attracted the attention of Bishop
Clinton S. Quinn (Episcopal), who became an enthusiastic supporter and
immediately arranged for Larry to talk to meetings of church officials in
Houston and other towns in his diocese. They also came to the attention of
Bill W., who wrote Larry a congratulatory letter from New York. And most
importantly, the articles attracted some alcoholics. One of these was Roy Y.
from San Antonio, who had recently sobered up in Los Angeles A.A. Another
was Ed H., a great help to Larry in getting A.A. started, who was unable to
stay sober himself.

The first Houston A.A. meeting was held March 15, 1940, in a room in the
YWCA Bldg. The group continued to meet on Tuesdays with as many as 25
attending -- but often a different 25 each time! Ed H. and Roy Y. tried to
educate ministers and doctors without much success until they were referred
to Dr. David Wade at Galveston State Hospital. Dr. Wade was to remain a good
friend of A.A. Later, he and Ed H. were to help found A.A. in Austin (see
below). The Jack Alexander article in March 1941 brought in many inquiries,
one of them a defrocked preacher, Howell S. and his beloved wife Molly, who
also attended the meetings. Another was Ed F. who became particularly active
in Twelfth Stepping the flood of prospects, along with Ed H. Early members
from that time were:

Clarence "Bull" D., Earl D., Joe F., George P. (who later helped carry A.A.
to Albuquerque), and an enthusiastic and energetic woman, Esther E. (who
moved to Dallas and helped start A.A. there as well as afterward in San
Antonio). By the end of '41, there were 85 members.

Dissension developed when a transplant from Baltimore A.A. told the group
that in the East the group elected a steering committee which handled its
affairs. Founder Larry J. had been running the Houston group with something
of an iron hand, so the group decided to elect a steering committee. Larry,
full of resentment, pulled out of the group. Ed H. went with him, "not
because I thought he was right -- I thought he was wrong -- but because he
needed a friend." Larry slipped and was hospitalized. Soon afterward, Ed H.
went back to drinking. But by this time, A.A. was firmly rooted in Houston.
Larry came back to the old group in 1943, but died of his old ills later
that year [note: Larry died in 1944]. Ed H. went into the Navy, where he
stayed drunk as much as he could. Roy Y. went into the Army and was
transferred to Tampa, Florida, where he started an A.A. group. He remained
sober the rest of his life and was still active and well in 1985. Esther E.
took over as leader of the Houston group in 1942, and Hortense L. succeeded
her when she moved to Dallas. The group met in the basement of the
Ambassador Hotel in 1941. During the war years it met in other places: the
M.& M. Building, Franklin St., Milam St., Dooley St., and finally beginning
in '46 at 3511 Travis St. where it remained.

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jax760
Sent: Friday, August 01, 2008 3:46 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Larry Jewell - AA in Houston

Can anyone tell me more about Larry J? I know
he wrote that the six articles that appeared
in the Houston Press and I am familiar
with "The First AA Pamphlet".

What is Larry's history post 1940?

Any info available on fate of the pamphlet?

This pamphlet appears to be the origin of
"spiritual not religious," printed as "not
religious, but spiritual" in the 4th article.

Does anyone have any additional information
on this?

I am trying to research the history of the
description of AA as "Spiritual not Religious"
as used by either the pioneers such as
Larry J or in AA literature.

Any help is appreciated.

God Bless

------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

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++++Message 5162. . . . . . . . . . . . Barry L.''s claim for royalties for
Living Sober
From: Chris Budnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/4/2008 11:40:00 PM

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I have copies of some correspondence between
Barry L. and the General Service Board that
were in Dr. Bob's collection at Brown
University.

There is a letter from Barry to George Dorsey
on March 7, 1982 (Cc: Robert Pearson).

There is a reply to Barry from John Bragg on
May 25, 1982 (Cc: Robert Pearson).

Finally, there is a letter from Barry to
Gordon Patrick, dated February 14, 1983.

- - - -

The first letter outline Barry's claim to
royalties from the sale of Living Sober.

The second letter basically says "you
negotiated a deal for $4,000 in 1974 and
you're not getting any more."

The last letter concludes with Barry stating
that he is left with no choice but to file
a claim for $153,304.45 in retroactive
royalties.

Chris
_____________________________________

From: Mel B.
Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2008
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: Barry L. and Bill W's copy of
the Big Book manuscript

Hi Rick,

I was pleased to read this additional
information about Barry L., the manuscript,
etc. If his heirs made a bundle out of the
manuscript, it is probably poetic justice.
I think Barry did feel he deserved more
pay for what services he had rendered to
AA World Services and Lois supported him
in this effort. It failed, however, and
Barry died without getting any additional
bucks (at least to my knowledge). He was
virtually a son to Lois and accompanied her
or her trips. I took a photo of her greeting
Jack Bailey in Akron in 1978, with Barry
standing behind her. This is the only
photo I have of Barry, and I wish another
was available.

Mel
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mel Barger
melb@accesstoledo
(melb at accesstoledo.com)

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++++Message 5163. . . . . . . . . . . . Margarita L.
From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/7/2008 8:58:00 AM

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Does anyone know anything, beyond the few
details supplied in "Not God," about Margarita
L.?

Kurtz describes her as having been a student
of Jung and "Wilson's most proximate continuing
contact with Jung's thought." Wilson exchanged
letters with her, and she is mentioned in a
couple of letters to others.

I get the feeling she was American, but am
beginning to doubt even that. Most people are
findable, in some way, on ancestry.com and
under that name I can't turn up a plausible
trace of her. The name doesn't match anyone
mentioned in Jungian sources, either, but
those are of course not comprehensive. There
is a "Margaret" who would fit quite well, but
no evidence she was ever called "Margarita."

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++++Message 5164. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Dr Bob`s Big Book
From: rick tompkins . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/7/2008 6:10:00 AM

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The Akron Intergroup Archives has one of the
final multilith printings of the draft Big
Book that was the property of Dr. Bob.

It has no ‘red pencil’ edits in the fashion of
the “printer’s manuscript.”

Rick, Illinois

- - - -

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Dr Bob`s Big Book

Does anyone know what happened
to Dr. Bob's Big Book?

tks
Tommy

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++++Message 5165. . . . . . . . . . . . Timeline on Marty Mann and Yale
From: Ron Roizen . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/7/2008 2:35:00 PM

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Arthur posted the following link to an AA
chronology web site yesterday:

http://aa.org/ <http://aa.org/aatimeline/> aatimeline/

I took a look at it. Under the year 1944 is
offered, on one panel, a cameo description of
the launching of Marty Mann's organization and
its relationship to the Yale alcohol science
group. The text says in part:

"On behalf of the NCEA [Mann's new organiza-
tion], Marty embarks on a nationwide tour to
tell of her struggle with alcoholism." Cameos,
of course, leave out a lot. Yet, this
sentence leaves one to wonder why the Yale
alcohol science group, which funded Mann's and
her organization's activities from 1944-1949,
would underwrite her endeavor.

Below is a passage from an essay I published
in a book about five years ago, which may
clarify the matter a little (the full
stand-alone essay is available online at
http://www.roizen.com/ron/postrepeal.htm ).

Thanks.

Ron Roizen

Wallace, Idaho

In 1942, public relations specialist Dwight
Anderson (1942) further developed this
alcoholism theme by suggesting that the idea
afforded an excellent symbol with which to
clarify the differences between the new
scientific approach to alcohol and the dry
and wet mindsets. Two years later, in October,
1944, E.M. Jellinek and Marty Mann sought to
conjoin Anderson's disease concept focus with
what the Yale science group regarded as an
emergent human resource in AA's potential for
rapid, national growth. The Yale-based group's
idea was to use the disease concept theme as
a means for organizing a national, grassroots
organization that would offer information and
referral, advice to alcoholics and their
families, and -- not least importantly --
generate financial support for new scientific
research. AA, and particularly the families
of AA members, would thus provide a resource
for the emergent alcohol science not unlike
the relationship between American Cancer
Society (or other single-disease-advocacy
organizations) and cancer research.12

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++++Message 5166. . . . . . . . . . . . When did Bill W meet Rowland H in
person?
From: terry walton . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/7/2008 4:08:00 PM

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Good Afternoon,

Is there any documented history of when Bill
Wilson met and talked to Rowland Hazard to hear
what conversations Rowland and Carl Jung had?

The Big Book uses statements made from Carl
Jung to Rowland. Where would Bill have heard
this from? Directly from Rowland, or did he
rely on second hand information from Ebby?

We know Bill thanked Carl Jung for the forming
of step 1 in his talks in 1960 made to the
clergy. And he thanked Carl Jung directly in
his 1961 letter.

Is there any Oxford Group history to show
when Bill met and learned this from Rowland,
and what happened in the offices of Carl Jung?

Thank you,

Terry

- - - -

From the moderator:

See http://hindsfoot.org/archive3.html

The story of how the AA movement was begun,
starts with a wealthy alcoholic named Rowland
Hazard (1881-1945) who traveled to Zurich in
1926 and became a patient of the famous Swiss
psychiatrist Carl Jung. Jung finally told
Rowland that the only way alcoholics of his
sort could stop drinking was to immerse thems-
elves in the spiritual life.

But like a typical alcoholic, Rowland ignored
his advice, and had to go through seven more
years of misery (his drinking nearly killed
him on his hunting trip to Afica later on)
before he was willing to seek a spiritual
answer.

Recent research by Amy Colwell Bluhm Ph.D.
and Cora Finch has established that Rowland
arrived in Zurich in May 1926 (not 1931,
the date given in the older AA literature).
See Bluhm's article "Verification of C.G.
Jung’s analysis of Rowland Hazard and the
history of Alcoholics Anonymous" in the
American Psychological Association's journal
History of Psychology in November 2006 and
Cora Finch's long account of Rowland Hazard's
life and struggles with alcoholism at
stellarfire.org:

http://www.stellarfire.org/

By 1933, Rowland was drinking to the point
where he could not cope with even simple
everyday life. He sought help from a therapist
named Courtenay Baylor, who was associated
with the Emmanuel Movement and the Jacoby Club.
This was the only early twentieth century
group other than Alcoholics Anonymous which
had had any notable success in getting
alcoholics sober and keeping them sober.
Like Alcoholics Anonymous, the EM and JC
combined spirituality and psychological help
through a simple kind of lay therapy. See
Richard M. Dubiel, "The Road to Fellowship:
The Role of the Emmanuel Movement and the
Jacoby Club in the Development of Alcoholics
Anonymous":

http://hindsfoot.org/kdub2.html

Baylor pushed Rowland into taking Jung's
advice seriously. They were too far from
Boston for Rowland to become actively
involved in the Emmanuel Movment and the
Jacoby Club, so he became actively involved
instead in an upperclass Protestant evangelical
movement called the Oxford Group, and finally
got sober.

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

P.S. The traditional oversimplied AA account
(written in documents coming out of New York
AA) ignored the role of the Emmanuel Movement
and Jacoby Club in early AA history, and
tended to credit the Oxford Group for almost
everything that happened, in many situations
where there were other important influences
and sources involved. The first Boston AA
group began meeting at the home of the Jacoby
Club, for example, and was initially bound
to the Jacoby Club in the same way that early
Akron AA was bound to the Oxford Group.

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++++Message 5167. . . . . . . . . . . . Actual date of Bill W''s Winchester
Cathedral visit.
From: iouaa . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/11/2008 3:02:00 AM

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It must be getting quite close to the 90th
anniversary of this event. I know it is not
the same gravestone as Bill W saw but it would
be nice to walk aaround this cathedral and
think "If Bill W had not walked around here
90 years ago today..."

So how close can this date be pinpointed??

Phil

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++++Message 5168. . . . . . . . . . . . Tradition 8 and convention speaker
"riders"
From: stockholmfellowship . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/9/2008 8:27:00 AM

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In the entertainment business there is a contractual addendum for
performance/concert contracts called a "rider". This is the part of
the contract that stipulates the special requirement of the performer
for that gig. Most famously, many have heard of the bowl of green --
and only green -- M&Ms in the dressing room. Often times it includes
certain class of travel, entourage allowances, and a long menu of top
shelf liquor for their private backstage bar.

I have done service on many AA conventions in several cities over the
years of my sobriety. This past year I have gotten more and more
dismayed at the "riders" for AA convention speakers. There have been
demands for first-class travel, luxury suite or other expensive hotel
accommodations, lofty meal or per diem allowances, several days
advance accommodations, entertainment requests, and travel for family
members and/or sponsors or sponsees.

The more fancy the demands of a sober member of Alcoholics Anonymous
to come to a city to tell their experience, strength and hope, the
more I fear "professionalism" and the weakening of our 8th tradition.

- - - -

THE HISTORICAL QUESTIONS I AM ASKING:

What precedent is there for traveling and accommodating speakers for
AA conventions? Did Bill W. or Dr. Bob have any special or luxury
needs?

Did Lois or Ann have to come with them and, if so, was it in
cooperation with them participating in an Al-Anon meeting during the
same convention? (A necessary distinction, I feel, from a demand to
travel non-Al-Anon family on vacation.)

How does GSO shuttle our Trustees of AA to work conferences?

How do the main speakers for the International Convention travel?

Should/Must all speakers receive the same travel and accommodations?

- - - -

Please, I do not want to open a discussion into what controversies
speakers get into from the podium or anonymity breaks in promoting
speakers on posters and such. I would appreciate some background on
the balance of Tradition 8 and requests by speakers before they agree
to speak at AA conventions.

Thank you for any AA history on this issue.

________________________________________

From the moderator:

Please let us confine ourselves to answering
the specific historical questions which were
asked.

The questions simply concern how things were
actually done with Bill W. and Dr. Bob and
Lois and Anne, and how things are actually
done with AA Trustees, speakers at the
International Conventions, and so on. All
simply matter-of-fact questions.

General opinions and interpretations of how
the AA traditions ought to be interpreted
need to be posted in an AA discussion group,
such as (for example) the Common Solution
AA discussion group:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AA_Common_Solution_Group/

We all know how to preach lengthy sermons,
and talk about how we think things OUGHT to be
done, but please, with 1854 members in the
group, nobody would have time to read them
all, no matter how inspiring and edifying they
all were :-)

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

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++++Message 5169. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill W. and Rowland H.
From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/12/2008 10:46:00 AM

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Rowland H. was a Vestryman of Calvary Church
1938-40 and active in the Businessmen's Group
of the OG with Shep (until Shep ran for
Congress in 1940?); Bill W. was active at Calvary
in 1935-6 and maybe '37; When Rowland had a
relapse in '36, his mother suggested to his
brother Pier that they get in touch with the
Calvary OG people because they had helped
before (?1934-5), which may be the first time
any non-AA suggested someone get in touch with
Bill W or his friends about alcoholism.

It's possible Bill heard Rowland's story
directly from Rowland in 1934-5 or even
1936-7. We know he heard part of it
(including the implied 1931 date) from Cebra
(in fact there's a recording at GSO of Bill's
1954 conversation with Cebra and his wife
Lucette that includes quite a bit on Rowland),
possibly from Shep -- and of course Cebra may
have gotten it from Shep.

The best book on Bill's 1930s contacts with
Rowland may be Dick B's NEW LIGHT ON
ALCOHOLISM: GOD, SAM SHOEMAKER, AND AA
(rev ed Kihei 1999).

If that doesn't give the desired information
on personal contacts between Bill and Rowland,
Dick B may have found something since 1999.
It's possible Cora Finch on the HistoryLovers
may have something also.

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++++Message 5170. . . . . . . . . . . . Drinking Bay Rum?
From: rollemupjohnson . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/12/2008 12:22:00 AM

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Can anyone direct me to any AA literature
discussing drinking "Bay Rum"?

I'm sure I've heard it before, but can't
find it.

Thanks in advance,

John K., ( JKELL13@bellsouth.net )

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++++Message 5171. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr Bob`s Big Book
From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/12/2008 4:39:00 AM

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AA archives or Brown University?

I thought that Smithy sold a copy of the
Big Book to AA. The price I remember was
$25,000.

But searching to verify the fact, I could only
come across something from Brown University
saying they had Dr Bob's papers and the
Big Book and coffee pot.

I am sure that I would have heard this when
I was on AA committees some twenty years or
so ago .... but ???

Possibly you can correct me, if I am in error.

George

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++++Message 5172. . . . . . . . . . . . Sermon on The Mount publishing code
numbers
From: Fred . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/17/2008 9:54:00 AM

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In trying to research the different editions
of Emmet Fox's book, "The Sermon on the Mount,"
I learned that the editions that they used
in New york and Akron (1934 & 1935) did not
have the chapter about The Lord's Prayer.

This intrigued me as to what the letters below
the Copyright information designates and what
the sequence of their combinations actually
mean.

Does anyone know of or can refer me to a resource
that describes this numbering/lettering system?

Thanx,
Fred

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++++Message 5173. . . . . . . . . . . . Sample inventory on p. 65 of the Big
Book
From: johnhartie . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/16/2008 11:13:00 AM

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Is the inventory real on page 65 of the Big
Book? If it is, whose is it?

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++++Message 5174. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W. and Rowland H.
From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/15/2008 3:12:00 PM

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Wasn't Rowland H the person whom Bill W
described as probably having too many sherries
at a junior league coalition, or something like
that, when he was first introduced to the
Oxford group?

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++++Message 5176. . . . . . . . . . . . Anne Smith''s Journal
From: Ralph Cova . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/9/2008 10:35:00 PM

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Not long ago I was privileged to come into
possession of a copy of Anne Ripley Smith's
Journal 1933-1939. It is the Journal she
kept and shared with Dr. Bob, Bill W., and
the early people in the Alcoholics Anonymous
movement. It is supposed to have come from
AA's General Service Office in New York City.
I received 79 pages of which 28 are handwritten,
of which some appear to be duplicated. There
are 51 typed pages that Dr. Bob and Anne's
daughter Sue Smith-Windows typed.

On the written pages I have tried to duplicate
it as it was written, but there are some areas
that are just not decipherable. When the
original Journal was copied, there were pages
where some of the information on the pages
was cut off during the duplicating process.
I have not tried to alter or put in words
even when I thought I might know what was
intended to be said. I will leave that up
to you to fill in the blanks. Eventually
I will scan the complete document as I
received it and make those available also.

- - - -

From the moderator:

Since we cannot put attachments to
AAHistoryLovers messages, I have posted a
copy of these two transcripts (which are
in the form of Adobe Acrobat .PDF files) at

http://hindsfoot.org/annesmth.html

All those who wish, may take a look at
the two transcripts there.

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++++Message 5177. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Sermon on The Mount publishing
code numbers
From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/17/2008 8:31:00 PM

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Re-sent with corrections

At 08:54 8/17/2008, Fred wrote:

>In trying to research the different editions
>of Emmet Fox's book, "The Sermon on the Mount,"
>I learned that the editions that they used
>in New york and Akron (1934 & 1935) did not
>have the chapter about The Lord's Prayer.
>
>This intrigued me as to what the letters below
>the Copyright information designates and what
>the sequence of their combinations actually
>mean.
>
>Does anyone know of or can refer me to a resource
>that describes this numbering/lettering system?
>

That is the code Harpers used to indicate when the book was printed.

It was explained on this list very well not too long ago, but I can't
find the post right now.

I recorded the following. It was in a nicer form, but my cpu won't
reproduce it:

Harper & Brothers. Prior to 1912, the date on the title page should
match the last date on the copyright page. Began stating "First
Edition" on the copyright page in 1922. A letter code for the month
and year the book was printed, which would actually be earlier than
the official publication date, was introduced in 1912. In most cases
for first editions published between 1912 and 1922, the letter code
for the year on the copyright page should match (or precede) the date
on the title page.

Months:
A=January E=May I=September
B=February F=June K=October
C=March G=July L=November
D=April H=August M=December

Years:
M=1912 B=1927 R=1942 G=1957
N=1913 C=1928 S=1943 H=1958
O=1914 D=1929 T=1944 I=1959
P=1915 E=1930 U=1945 K=1960
Q=1916 F=1931 V=1946 L=1961
R=1917 G=1932 W=1947 M=1962
S=1918 H=1933 X=1948 N=1963
T=1919 I=1934 Y=1949 O=1964
U=1920 K=1935 Z=1950 P=1965
V=1921 L=1936 A=1951 Q=1966
W=1922 M=1937 B=1952 R=1967
X=1923 N=1938 C=1953 S=1968
Y=1924 O=1939 D=1954
Z=1925 P=1940 E=1955
A=1926 Q=1941 F=1956

My printing of Sermon on the Mount is coded K-P, so it was printed in
October, 1935.

The first printing of the 12x12 is coded D-C, indicating March, 1953.

I had not heard that the chapter on the Lord's Prayer was left out of
the original versions. When I was in prep school in the mid-50s, we
had a vesper service before dinner and every year the Headmaster
would give a series of talks from Fox on the Lord's Prayer. The book
brought back fond memories when I arrived in A.A. and read it.

I would be interested in when the addition was made.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

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++++Message 5178. . . . . . . . . . . . Sgt. Bill S. passed away at 1 p.m.
yesterday
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/18/2008 7:59:00 PM

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Bill Swegan, the chief spokesman for the
wing of early A.A. which emphasized the
psychological aspects of the program, passed
away at 1 p.m. on Sunday, August 17, 2008.

Born June 29, 1918, sober July 5, 1948,
died August 17, 2008

90 years old, sober 60 years

In A.A. circles, Bill Swegan was a close
associate of Mrs. Marty Mann, Yev Gardner,
E. M. Jellinek, and Searcy Whaley.

Survived by his children, as well as his wife
Mary, the love of his life, whose father was
the noted psychiatrist Dr. Louis Jolyon
"Jolly" West. Bill Swegan and Mary's father
worked together to create the pioneering
alcoholism treatment program at Lackland in
the 1950's.

Notes of condolence can be sent to Bill and
Mary's home address:

William E. Swegan
152 Bear Flag Road
Sonoma, California 95476

See Bill's article "The Psychology of
Alcoholism" at:

http://hindsfoot.org/BSV02Psy.html

along with the little pamphlet he used to
hand out to alcoholics who entered his
AA-based treatment program:

http://hindsfoot.org/BSV01Thr.html

For photos of Bill, Mary, and Dr. West, see:

http://www.geocities.com/glennccc@sbcglobal.net/aapix02.html

http://hindsfoot.org/essays.html

http://hindsfoot.org/kBS4.html

Bill was a dear friend, a truly good man,
and I am going to miss him more than words
could ever say.

Glenn C.

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++++Message 5179. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W. and Rowland H.
From: Tom White . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/17/2008 5:11:00 PM

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No, I think that was OG member "Shep" who
visited Bill either in Towns or Brooklyn
with Ebby in 1934.

Tom W.

On Aug 15, 2008, at 6:12 PM, Baileygc23@aol.com wrote:

> Wasn't Rowland H the person whom Bill W
> described as probably having too many sherries
> at a junior league coalition, or something like
> that, when he was first introduced to the
> Oxford group?

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++++Message 5180. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W. and Rowland H.
From: John Lee . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/18/2008 12:37:00 PM

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Shep Cornell was the putative sherry-sipper.

The Bill Wilson quote about sherries at the
cotillion can be found on pages 17 and 118
of Not God by Ernest Kurtz: "pantywaist[s]
whose nearest exposure to alcoholism has
been going wild one night on too many
sherries at a Junior League cotillion."
Kurtz cites Robert Thompsen's Bill W.
pp.211-12 as his source.

Rowland wasn't singled out by Bill Wilson,
but Rowland's patrician background would have
made him suspicious to Bill. Wilson seems
to have been more irritated by "Ivy League[r]"
Shep Cornell, one of the three Oxford Group
members who rescued Ebby in Vermont, and who
also accompanied Ebby to a followup visit to
Bill in Towns Hospital in 1934.

John Lee
Pittsburgh

On Fri, 8/15/08, Baileygc23 at aol.com
<Baileygc23@aol.com> wrote:

Wasn't Rowland H the person whom Bill W
described as probably having too many sherries
at a junior league coalition, or something like
that, when he was first introduced to the
Oxford group?

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++++Message 5181. . . . . . . . . . . . Bob / Anne, Bill / Lois, trustees,
speakers at internationals
From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/15/2008 1:40:00 PM

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This can be only a partial answer to the
questions raised on payment for travelers to
AA functions.

On Anne and Dr Bob at Conventions, etc., of
course Anne died the year before the 1950
International, and Bob was driven over for
his brief appearance (and the registration
fee was $1.50, for what that's worth).

When Bob and Anne went up to the Camp Karephree
Founders' Day frolics, they drove, and stayed
over with friends.

When Bob came east in 1939 (I think it was),
he and Anne stayed at Bill and Kathleen R's
in Hackettstown. After that I believe they
stayed with Bill and Lois or with family or
with other AA friends (or possibly at an Inn
in St Johnsbury?) -- no AA payments.

The files should show the degree to which
Bill's and Lois's expenses were underwritten
by AA at the Internationals, and then Lois's.

The Trustees at their Quarterly meetings at
the Crowne Plaza in recent years have their
rooms paid for by GSO (or AAWS/Grapevine) as
a bloc (cheaper that way), and are offered
reimbursement for travel and parking (but I
recall being told that they were told the
CP Parking Garage was too expensive so use
the cheaper Days' Inn garage down on the next
corner).

Non-AA Speakers at the Conventions have, from
the evidence I've seen, been put up as cheaply
as possible; I don't know their per-diem. AA
Members on panels have been assumed to be there
for themselves -- generally no reimbursement
and take what you get on quarters.

The local Area where I live voted not to cover
spouses' expenses at the Convention/Assembly
back in 1998: I can't say if that still holds
but suspect it does.

Our History & Archives Gathering has on a
couple of occasions put featured speakers up
for a night at a Holiday Inn Express ($75)
or approximate equivalent, and once paid full
and once partial expenses for long-distance
bus transportation to a couple of far-travelers
-- but Mel B. drove himself from Toledo to
Harrisburg at his own expense, and Glenn C.
twice from South Bend to Lebanon, Pennsylvania.

Back around the end of WW2, Joe F. did offer
to fly Bill W. to Karephree in the midst of
Bill's depression -- but that would have been
Joe's private gift to Bill (who was too
depressed to come in any case).

And over the years anecdotal evidence indicates
quite a number of travelers have declined to
have their ways paid by AA or even by members
of AA (except, by richer members, in cases of
extreme financial exigency).

- - - -

The original message was 5168
"Tradition 8 and convention speaker 'riders'"
from <stockholmfellowship@yahoo.com> at
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/5168

- - - -

From: charles Knapp <cdknapp@pacbell.net>
(cdknapp at pacbell.net)

Hello Group,

When Bill came to speak in Southern California,
there were any number of members that would
have been thrilled to put Bill or Bill and
Lois up in their home during their stay. If
they were in the San Diego area they oftentime
they stayed with Bill's mother or Jimmy and
Rosa Burwell.

If in the Los Angeles area in the 1940's they
stayed with some of AA pioneers such as Doc H.,
Pete C., Cliff W., and Barney H. Doc H. had
a cabin in the San Bernardino mountains that
Bill stayed at on more than one occasion.

Starting around the late 1940's and early
1950's Bill spent most of his visits at
Chuck C.'s house. After Chuck got sober he
did very well financially and had a big home
overlooking the Pacific Ocean in Laguna Beach.
Bill said he felt as if he could really relax
while at Chuck's place. After the 1955
International Convention in St Louis Bill came
out and stayed about a week at Chuck's home.

I have only heard of one time that Bill and
Lois' traveling expenses were paid by local
members and that was their visit in 1947.
Several groups pitched in to bring Bill and
Lois to the Long Beach, California, area.
The women gave a luncheon for Lois and big
meetings were planned to hear Bill talk. I
am sure some of the more well off members paid
for train or plane tickets when they visited at
other times, but that part of the story was
never mentioned.

As for the International Conventions, I spoke
on the Archives Panel at the 2000 Convention
and I had to pay my own way. I received no
perks from the GSO and was told that when I
was invited.

Also if you read the Wilson-Burwell Letters you
will see Jimmy was a little put out at the fact
his expenses were not paid to attend the 1965
International Conventions. So I guess I was in
good company

Hope this helps

Charles from California

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++++Message 5182. . . . . . . . . . . . Does AA in the media help people
know more about it?
From: Aloke Dutt . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/18/2008 11:38:00 AM

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I do remember seeing results of a survey
conducted on the streets of some US cities
asking people if they had heard of AA.

If I recollect right, in the states in which
AA was featured often on radio & newspapers
more people on the streets knew about AA.

Can I get some more information on this?

In our Intergroup here in North India,
some feel it's waste of money & effort to
publicize AA in the media.

Thanks,

Aloke
in North India

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++++Message 5183. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W. and Rowland H.
From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/19/2008 8:36:00 AM

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In Message 5179, Tom White <tomwhite@cableone.net>
(tomwhite at cableone.net) wrote:

> No, I think that was OG member "Shep" who
> visited Bill either in Towns or Brooklyn
> with Ebby in 1934.
>
> Tom W.

Yes, Shep was a much more immediate presence
in Bill's Oxford Group life than Rowland, and
he was not an alcoholic although he probably
did stop drinking out of respect for OG
clean-living tradition. There was no specific
rule against drinking for OG members. It all
depended on their individual guidance.

In her book "Lois Remembers," Lois says she
and Bill and Ebby and Shep were regular
attenders of the Calvary Church OG meeting.
My impression is that Rowland did not attend
that meeting. It was for ordinary OGs and not
the top team. Shep probably went to support
Ebby, Bill and others. I'm not sure how much of
Rowland's time was spent in New York in that
period -- apparently not very much, as he
had residences in Rhode Island, Vermont and
California. Shep, on the other hand, was deeply
involved in the OG (more so than Rowland) and
in New York full-time.

I've read speculation that Rowland visited
Bill in Towns hospital the last time Bill was
there, but Bill (I'm going primarily on
material in Dick B.'s book, "The Conversion
of Bill W.") never said so. Also, Rowland had
been on a major OG mission to the "West,"
including Canada, over the previous couple of
weeks and there is no evidence he was in New
York at the time Bill was in Towns. Rowland
did keep in close touch with Ebby from the
summer of 1934 through late 1935, and brought
him to New Mexico in August 1935. I can't
believe Rowland could have missed being in
the same place with Bill at some point.

One intriguing detail: James Houck, the Oxford
Group old-timer who was involved with the AA
back-to-basics people, remembered attending
OG meetings in Frederick, Maryland, with Bill
in 1935-1937. That is quite a long period of
time and I'm not sure how many meetings Bill
could really have attended there, but I do know
that Rowland gave his testimony at a large
public OG meeting in Frederick in 1935.

Cora

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++++Message 5184. . . . . . . . . . . . Dates in Sgt. Bill Swegan''s life
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/19/2008 3:20:00 PM

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William E. Swegan
(Sgt. Bill S.)
Dates in his life

June 29, 1918 Bill Swegan born in Niles, Ohio

November 11, 1918 the Armistice ends World War I

1923 death of his mother

1926 his father remarried

May 20-21, 1927 Charles A. Lindbergh flew from
Roosevelt Field (near New York City) to Paris
in the Spirit of St. Louis in 33 hrs. 39 min.

October 1929 the stock market crash began the
period of the great depression

March 4, 1933 banks closed and business
virtually at a standstill for a more than a week

June 1936 Bill Swegan graduated from high school

December 24, 1939 Christmas Eve, Bill's first
drink, got drunk (working for the local
Firestone Service Store). Turned in his
resignation three times, but returned to
working for Firestone each time, there for
the next three years. He transferred to
Portsmouth, Virginia, then quit. Came back
to Ohio and was hired again as Service Manager.

1938 Bought his first automobile (1929 Model
A Ford), Service Manager at the Firestone in
Ohio.

September 1, 1939 Germany invaded Poland
(Great Britain and France declared war on
Germany on Sept. 3)

December 1939 Bill enlisted in the Army Air
Force for the first time. (Did not see his
family "for almost four years." This put him
back in the states on furlough in the summer
of 1943.) Army Air Force recruit training at
Langley Field, Virginia, in December 1939.
Sleeping in tents in the damp and cold.
December 24th it started to snow. Then he
volunteered to go to Hawaii (via Fort Slocum
on a small island near New Rochelle, New York,
a troopship through the Panama Canal, and
San Francisco).

April 1940 arrived in Hawaii

December 7, 1941 the Japanese attack on Pearl
Harbor and Hickam Army Air Base (which was
right next to the harbor). Bill runs through
the rain of bombs and bullets; his best
friends are all killed.

June 13, 1942 Bill was promoted to first
sergeant, which at that time was a rank in
addition to being a position (at 23 years old,
the youngest first sergeant ever in Air Force
history), 362nd Material Squadron, Hickam Field.

June 1943 Bill was shipped back to the states
in the summer of '43, to go to Aviation Cadet
School in LaGrande, Oregon (with courses at
Eastern Oregon College beginning July 6, 1943,
but washed out of the program as a result of
a drinking escapade.

Nov. 26, 1943 transferred to Goldsboro, North
Carolina, and shipped to New Guinea. Stationed
at Nadzab, New Guinea (where he caught dengue
fever and also picked up his malaria). Then
the island of Biak, then Mindora in the
Philippine Islands.

At some point prior to the Japanese surrender,
Bill was shipped back to the United States and
sent to Camp Atterbury (about 35 miles south
of Indianapolis, Indiana) prior to discharge.

August 14, 1945 Japan accepted surrender terms.
Bill was at Camp Atterbury, on pass to the
nearby town of Columbus, Indiana, and was hit
on the head and knocked unconscious by an
object thrown from a window. (Japan did not
actually sign the surrender until September 2.)
The death of Bill's stepmother in August 1945
fits in here somewhere.

August 19, 1945 discharged from the service.
Worked for General Electric, in the lamp
division, eventually fired for showing up
drunk for work too many times.

February 1946 the divorce became final, and
Bill's first marriage came to an end. There
was a daughter whom he only saw once again,
many years later. He had gone to work at a
General Motors plant, which went on strike at
the time he was put in the hospital for malaria
(and for his drinking). Wife granted a divorce
when the judge found out. Refused admission
to a Veteran's Hospital because of the alcoholism.
First contact with A.A. His ex-wife eventually
told him she would never remarry him even if
he did stop drinking. He reenlisted in the Air
Force in Toledo, Ohio. His first duty station
was Wright-Patterson Air Force base in Dayton,
Ohio. Then he was sent to the Reserve Training
Base at Romulus, Michigan.

May 2, 1946 married his second wife Ann on
May 2, 1946. She already had two children.

May 1947 Ann had become pregnant. Bill quit
drinking for a few months, his second contact
with A.A.

Ann gave birth in May 1947 to a little boy
(who became the third child in their combined
family). Summer of 1947, Bill was transferred
to Offut AFB in Omaha, Nebraska.

July 5, 1948 got sober in AA while stationed
at Mitchel Air Force Base on Long Island,
New York. He attended meetings with Yev
Gardner, Mrs. Marty Mann's right hand man.
Marty pulled strings and got the Air Force
to appoint Bill Swegan to work full time with
alcoholics at Mitchel AFB. This was the first
officially sanctioned AA-related alcoholism
treatment program in the U.S. military.

1949 Bill attended the Yale School of Alcohol
Studies, where he studied with E. M. Jellinek.
Searcy Whaley (who had gotten sober on May 5,
1946, and therefore had two more years of
sobriety than Bill) was also a student there,
and took young Bill under his wing.

1951-1953 Bill was appointed to teach in the
Air Force ROTC program at Kent State University,
right outside Akron, Ohio. He spent a year
going into St. Thomas Hospital and talking with
Sister Ignatia whenever he could get off work,
and observing the way her alcoholism treatment
program there was run.

1953-1961 at Lackland Air Force Base in San
Antonio, Texas, officially assigned by the
Air Force once more to work with alcoholics
full time. He was initially assigned to the
chaplain's office as a "Chaplain's Assistant,"
but the head of psychiatry at the military
hospital there, Dr. Louis Jolyon "Jolly" West,
had him re-assigned to psychiatry as a
psychiatric social worker.

June 1956 Bill authored (with Dr. West) "An
Approach to Alcoholism in the Military Service,"
in the American Journal of Psychiatry, where
he documented the way he had achieved a fifty
percent success rate in treating military
alcoholics (with others who had gone through
his program getting sober later on). Their
program emphasized the psychological side of
A.A. instead of the spiritual side.

1957-1961 after Dr. West's departure in 1957
(he ended up as head of the Psychiatry
Department at UCLA), Bill's position at
Lackland began to erode. Bill had to go
through three years of continuous struggle,
with no support from higher up, before he
could in his 21 years of Air Force service
and retire.

1961 he retired from the Air Force as a
Senior Master Sergeant. He signed a contract
to establish a treatment center in Lubbock,
Texas, and became the director of the
Arnett-Benson Rehabilitation Center as it
was called.

Early 1962 his father died, and Bill decided
to move back to Ohio. Living in Niles, Ohio
with his wife Ann and five boys (David, Robert,
Bill, Albert, and Alfonso), working for
Sanzenbacher Motors for three months.

1963-1965 Director of the Blood Donor Program
for the American Red Cross in that county.
They lived in the old homestead.

1965-1971 hired by the San Jose, California,
Red Cross Chapter to head their Donor
Recruitment Program, and worked there for
six years.

1965 Navy Commander Richard Jewell and Captain
Joseph Zuska, M.D., founded the world famous
Navy alcoholism treatment program at Long Beach,
California, in 1965. While they were setting
it up, Jewell brought Bill Swegan to Long Beach
to tell them how his program at Lackland had
been set up in the 1950's (a comparison of the
two programs will show the many similarities).
The U.S. military had a working, officially
sanctioned alcoholism treatment program once
again, this time in the Navy.

1971-1978 Bill took up a civil service position
as Chief of the Alcoholism Program at Fort Ord
in California, attempting to start an alcoholism
treatment program in the U.S. Army.

1978-1983 Bill took an EAP position at the
Naval Air Rework Facility at Alameda Naval
Air Station in California for the last five
years of his work career.

1983 He had made a pledge to retire at 65,
and when that day finally arrived, retired
from his job at the Naval Station. Upon
retirement, he received the Meritorious Service
Award, the Navy's highest award for a civilian
at a duty station.

1993 his second wife Ann began to have
difficult mental problems.

January 10, 2000 Ann died from aspiration
pneumonia due to cerebrovascular accident.
Seven years of difficult times before that:
agitated dementia, schizophrenia, and sick
sinus syndrome.

March 15-17, 2002 Indiana State A.A. Conference
in Columbus, Indiana. Bill began working on
his book "On the Military Firing Line" telling
the story of his life and describing his
alcoholism treatment method.

The last six years of Bill's life: He
continued living in Sonoma, California, and
traveling around speaking to AA conferences
and gatherings, including giving the keynote
address at the 8th National Archives Workshop
in Fort Lauderdale, Florida, in 2003. He
married Mary, daughter of Dr. Louis Jolyon West;
theirs was a truly loving and devoted
relationship. On April 23, 2007, President
George W. Bush sent Bill a presidential
citation and a letter thanking him for his
service to the country. In October 2007,
Bill was given an honorary certification
from the California Certification Board of
Alcohol and Drug Counselors, the only time
such a certification has ever been granted.

August 17, 2008 death

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++++Message 5185. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bob / Anne, Bill / Lois,
trustees, Public Information
From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/19/2008 11:32:00 AM

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When Bill and Lois went to Maryland they would
stay with Fitz Mayo and his wife. This was
during the time our basic text was being
written. His house was on land that was given
to him by the Burwell family. Bill did not
write when he visited there but Lois did take
care of Fitz's wife during her illness. Bill
and Fitz were close friends. There is very
little known about Fitz M.(see my previous
posts on Jimmy B. and Fitz M. for more
information). He may have been the glue that
held AA in NY together when battle lines were
being drawn on the Higher Power and God as
I understand Him issue.(Please correct me if
I am wrong; This is only my opinion)

On the early visits to Philadelphia, Bill and
others were put up in the homes of AA's and
AA's Associate Members like Dr's A. Weise
Hammer and Dudley Saul. These non-alcoholics
made it possible for A.A. to grow and survive.
We owe a great debt to these men and women.
The travel during this time was sometimes by
car but mainly by train. Arrangements were
made by post or by Western Union telegraph.
Telephones were somewhat of a luxury at the
time. This is why we have such fine records
of our early history. Once telephones became
commonplace we began to lose a lot of our
history.

PUBLIC INFORMATION COMMITTEE

The first committee after the Gripe Committee
in Philadelphia A.A. was P. I. (Public
Information Committee) It was felt that we
needed to tell our story rather than someone
else who was unfamiliar with us. P. I. is
essential in Intergroups and in Area structure.

The dirty windows at AA's second clubhouse and
1st "fully functional" Clubhouse led to the
formation of the "Gripe Committee."

Yours in Service,
Shakey Mike Gwirtz
Going to E Dorset for the Archives weekend at
the Wilson House this upcoming weekend with
Mitchell K., Barefoot and others.

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++++Message 5186. . . . . . . . . . . . Memorial service for Sgt. Bill
Swegan
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/19/2008 4:42:00 PM

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Noon on Saturday, August 23, 2008

Memorial service for "Sgt. Bill"

William E. Swegan
at Duggan's Mission Chapel
525 W. Napa Street,
Sonoma, California 95476
Phone: 707/996/3655

In lieu of buying flowers, his wife Mary has
suggested that A.A. members might drop an
extra dollar or so in the basket in memory of
Bill at the next A.A. meeting they attend.

For non-A.A. people, the other vocation to
which Bill devoted himself over his long
career in helping people was the Red Cross
blood donor program, which he always said he
regarded as a spiritual program because we
gave of ourselves to save another human
being's life. So a similar donation there
could also serve as a suitable honor to
Bill's memory.

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++++Message 5187. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W. and Rowland H.
From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/19/2008 9:58:00 PM

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It was Shep C and he reputedly visited Bill at
his home in Brooklyn more than once (together
with Ebby).

From my own readings there are documented
inferences that the relationship between Bill
and Rowland was somewhat more cordial than
is reflected in the previous postings on this
topic.

Rowland was one of the attendees at Stewarts
Cafeteria after Oxford Group meetings (along
with Bill W, Ebby T, Cebra G and Shep C). This
is a further inference that Rowland was also
a meeting attendee.

In his autobiography Bill W notes that Rowland
was a regular visitor to the Calvary Rescue
Mission (together with Cebra G, Shep C and
Ebby T) to help work with alcoholics.

Finally, as noted in a previous post by
Jared L, both Bill and Rowland served on the
Oxford Group's Businessmen's Team.

Cheers
Arthur

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++++Message 5188. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dates in Sgt. Bill Swegan''s
life
From: Bob Schultz . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/20/2008 11:44:00 AM

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1961 he retired from the Air Force as a
Senior Master Sergeant. He signed a contract
to establish a treatment center in Lubbock,
Texas, and became the director of the
Arnett-Benson Rehabilitation Center as it
was called.

Early 1962 his father died, and Bill
decided ....

- - - -

Having sobered up in Lubbock in 1976, the
Sarge may have been associated with Reese Air
Force base West of town that was originally
part of the Army Air corps. I believe that
clinic helped many, but had a short life.

Lubbock eventually became the home of a med
school that was very proactive in the treatment
of alcoholism, having a dean (George T) who
had begun his recovery in 1969 in Co. That
medical school was awarded four career teacher
awards in alcoholism in the 1970's. One was
in recovery, three others were not. It was
George's belief that it helped if you were
in recovery to treat the illness but in some
cases (albeit rare) people not in recovery,
could do a good job.

George and Bill D (IDAA) from Morristown NJ
started AA/medical meetings that were held in
El Paso and San Antonio discussing medical
issues associated with substance abuse and
then having separate open AA meetings. These
took place in the late 70's and into the 80's.

Texas Tech University now is one of three
universities(started at Tech) that offer
opportunity to students in recovery. I saw
a woman in her 60s get a degree a few years
ago who would never had the chance without
this program. Many, many stories out of
this program started by Carl Anderson in the
80s and taken to its present level by Kitty
Harris Wilkes.

Texas Tech University
Center for the Study of Addiction and Recovery
Lubbock, Texas:

http://www.depts.ttu.edu/hs/CSA/

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++++Message 5189. . . . . . . . . . . . When was Bill''s visit to Winchester
Cathedral?
From: dobbo101 . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/20/2008 4:08:00 AM

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What was the actual date of Bill W's Winchester
Cathedral visit, as close as we can tell?

Message 5167 from "iouaa"
<philip.thompson80@virgin.net> (philip.thompson80 at virgin.net)
has already asked this question, but I have
seen no attempts to answer it.

- - - -

From the moderator:

Pass It On pages 58-61 says that Bill W. left
the U.S. for England in August 1918.

And it says that he had left England and had
been in France for a while by the time the
Armistice was signed on November 11, 1918.

So his visit to Winchester Cathedral was
somewhere between those two dates, but can
we pin it down any closer than that?

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

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++++Message 5190. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Drinking Bay Rum?
From: Norm The Tinman . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/21/2008 9:35:00 PM

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Bay Rum was shaving lotion

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++++Message 5191. . . . . . . . . . . . Esther E
From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/23/2008 4:58:00 PM

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A while back "Shakey" asked for information on Esther E -- here's what
I have, courtesy of Searcy W.

FIRST WOMAN IN A.A. IN TEXAS – ESTHER E.

(Editor's note: Esther E. is deceased. However, her story did not die
with her. We found a tape that had been made of a talk she made when
she was twelve years sober [in 1953?] and this is what she said.
[Additional note: Esther E. was apparently b. around 1901/2, d. in
Dallas June 7 1960. Frank was b. in New Orleans Sept 9 1899 and d. in
Kerrville TX Sept 1979.])

"I'm Esther and I am an alcoholic. Through following the program of AA
to the best of my ability, I have been sober since May 16, 1941. The
only way I can maintain my sobriety is to remember always what it was
like twelve years ago this weekend.
"I think we have to do time in AA before we realize that it is going
to work for us. I only know that it does work if you desire it with
your whole heart without reservation.
"I came from a family where alcohol was socially accepted. We lived in
New Orleans, Louisiana and there was plenty to drink everywhere –
cocktail lounges and bar rooms. I'm an Episcopalian and we bless our
sacraments with wine. I can't remember a dinner at home that we did
not have white wine and claret on the table. The family drank sherry
now and then – a cordial after dinner. My sister, brother and I liked
crème de menthe. However, I never really knew the effects of alcohol
because our drinks had very little alcohol in them.
"In fact, it was not until about 1931 that my drinking first caused
any comment. After seven years of marriage I decided that I would
divorce my husband, Frank. I went home to my parents. We were living
in Dallas at the time and it only took one month to get a divorce.
Well, I had a time. Finally, I couldn't stand living with my parents
any longer – them watching me everything I did – and Frank was coming
to see me there. I had such a feeling of insecurity – finally I went
back to Dallas and remarried my husband. We left Dallas and moved to
Tulsa. That was the period when all the boys and Esther got drunk and
the wives didn't and they would talk about it.
"We were in Tulsa for about three years and we moved back to Dallas. I
began drinking heavier and heavier. Every night when Frank was in town
he would come home to find me passed out. When he went on a trip
connected with his work, he would come home to find me passed out.
Finally, one morning, he said to me, `Esther, why do you do this?'
"It was decided that a psychiatrist might help me. I went to talk to
the doctor, got drunk again and wound up in a booby hatch where they
kept me for seventeen days. I came out of there in worse shape than I
went in. And I was very resentful of my husband for putting me in that
place. From then on, my drunks ended up with me in a nursing home or
at home with a trained nurse to sober me up. This was in 1936 or `37.
"For Christmas that year my husband gave me a dog, a cocker spaniel.
We were living in an apartment and, in consideration of the new dog, I
found a house and rented it. I began taking the "Samaritan treatment"
to sober up. That is an excruciating way to get sober, the "nip"
treatment. Nothing helped. The church tried to help me; a doctor in
the congregation took an interest in helping me - he thought I had a
vitamin deficiency and shot me hill of vitamins, Of course, that did
not keep me sober. I would take my vitamins, stop at the Triangle Drug
Store and drink two beers, stop by the liquor store and get a pint of
gin and go home.
"Finally, in 1940 we went down to Houston. My husband thought a change
of scene might help me stay sober. That was my last year to drink –
nothing left but to try to stay sober. Nothing really helped. Then in
April 1941 I got drunk and decided to take my dog for his daily walk.
I staggered down the sidewalk and suddenly the patrol car stopped,
drove my dog home and drove me to jail. I was in jail only a few hours
when they called my husband to come and get me. That was the day I hit
bottom.
"Just a week before that (I later learned) someone had sent my husband
the article in the Saturday Evening Post by Jack Alexander about AA.
He was afraid to show it to me right then. I was so resentful of
everything he did. He waited another week or two while I continued to
drink. He was out of town and came home to find me passed out again.
The next morning he came to my room and said, "Esther, I'm not going
to lecture you or criticize any more, but I want you to read this
article about how some people are staying sober in AA." Frank said if
I would try this new thing, he would go along with me but if I did
not, l would have to go home to my parents… He could not stand by and
watch me destroy myself anymore.
"When he left me, I took several drinks to get my eyes to focus and I
read the article – through and through. From the very first paragraph
something began happening to me. I realized there were other people in
this world like me, that I was sick with a disease called alcoholism.
It was feeling of relief and I wanted to learn more about it. For the
first time I realized there was something horribly wrong with me. The
article was the first thing that had ever reached me. I told my
husband I wanted to try this AA. I wrote to New York and received a
personal note from Ruth Hock giving me the name of Larry Jewell. I
telephoned him and learned that he was in the hospital. So, naturally,
I got a pint of White Swan Gin and stayed drunk from Monday to Friday.
"That Friday night, May 16, 1941, at five minutes to 6:00 p.m., I had
a half water glass of White Swan Gin and with it, I humbly asked God
to help me. I have not had a drink since. The next day I went to
Larry's house and talked with his wife Bonita. And I met Ed H. and Roy
Y. and all those first members ... and the happiest life I have ever
known."

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++++Message 5192. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Does AA in the media help people
know more about it?
From: dianeea2003 . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/23/2008 10:03:00 AM

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--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Aloke Dutt" <alokedutt@...>
wrote:
>
> I do remember seeing results of a survey
> conducted on the streets of some US cities
> asking people if they had heard of AA.
>
> If I recollect right, in the states in which
> AA was featured often on radio & newspapers
> more people on the streets knew about AA.
>
> Can I get some more information on this?
>
> In our Intergroup here in North India,
> some feel it's waste of money & effort to
> publicize AA in the media.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Aloke

- - - -

In Canada as well as all of AA world wide we provide statistics to
cooperate with the professional community(CPC) so that we can keep
with our primary purpose.We also provide pamphlets phone numbers and
PSV's This also is helpful with PI or piblic information where we
reach out to the still suffering alcoholic who may need help and
doesn't know where to go for help. Providing
information..pamphlets ..phone #'s, etc that reach's out and helps to
carry the message( our primary purpose).Some professionals work with
alcoholics who want help and we are helping them to help others by

providing the information that is very important. The long hours and
dedication of those in this service are endless .. yet rewarding.We
have seen so many new faces at meetings through the resources we
provide.The AA website provides the latest statistics for 2008.
Freely we receive freely we give.

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++++Message 5193. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Drinking Bay Rum?
From: Paul . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/23/2008 1:57:00 PM

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From the story IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN WORSE
(4th edit., page 354)

"It didn't say I had to finally live on skid
row and drink bay rum, canned heat, or lemon
extract. It did say I admitted I was powerless
over alcohol -- that my life had become
unmanageable."

Paul

- - - -

Original message: "rollemupjohnson"
<rollemupjohnson@...> wrote:
>
> Can anyone direct me to any AA literature
> discussing drinking "Bay Rum"?
>
> I'm sure I've heard it before, but can't
> find it.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> John K.

- - - -

From: "oldtimer672000" <twdtx@sbcglobal.net>
(twdtx at sbcglobal.net)

Bay Rum is an after shave lotion one puts on
after shaving, to smell pertty, it also gives
a cooling and refreshing effect to the face
and doesn't taste too bad either if I remember
right it has a slight tinge of lime as well.

- - - -

From: Baileygc23@aol.com
(Baileygc23 at aol.com)

I was aware of bay rum from years ago. Although
I never used it as a refreshment, I did not
know its reputation as the down and outers use
of it on occasion.

- - - -

From: James Flynn <jdf10487@yahoo.com>
(jdf10487 at yahoo.com)

Yuk. I use to know some winos who drank Aqua
Velva aftershave lotion, they called it green
lizard.

- - - -

From: "hartsell" <hartsell@etex.net>
(hartsell at etex.net)

Of course Bay Rum is shaving lotion, as is
Green Lizard but Bay Rum is primarily a Hair
Tonic still used in my barber shop! :-)
Of course I go to an Old Folks barber, not
a "Stylist" :-)

Aint it fun to be sober and able to enjoy
just funnin? and of course the discussion
IS Historically pertinent as the subject
is mentioned in our literature.

Sherry C.H.

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++++Message 5194. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Esther E
From: Mike Barns . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/24/2008 3:22:00 PM

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Esther is credited with starting AA in Dallas.
For more, see:

http://www.aadallas.org/dalhistory.htm

Mike B.

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++++Message 5195. . . . . . . . . . . . Beginnings of AA in New Orleans
From: grault . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/25/2008 12:05:00 PM

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Does anyone have information about the origins
of AA in New Orleans?

Thanks.

Gerry Rault

- - - -

From the moderator:

The first step on this kind of thing is usually
to do a search in our past messages, using
the little box at the top to look for a specific
word or phrase.

The following is what I found. But what else do
our historians know about the beginnings of
AA in New Orleans?

Glenn C. (South Bend)

- - - -

Message 4299

Significant May Dates in A.A. History

May 3, 1941 - The first AA group in New
Orleans, Louisiana, was formed (sometimes
dated as May 2, 1943)

- - - -

[NOTE: but the June 1946 Grapevine said
that the New Orleans group was started
on March 30, 1943, and the Aug 1947
Grapevine said that they had only about
15 members as of May 10, 1944.]

- - - -

Message 3864

Venetian blind salesman Irwin M who was from
Cleveland .... was a big man, over 250 lbs.
He went to Atlanta, and Jacksonville, New
Orleans etc. He had an unorthodox style of
12 stepping and started many AA groups.

Yours in Service
Shakey Mike Gwirtz

- - - -

Message 1385

Grapevine, Aug 1947

C. G. K. of the New Orleans Group writes in
to say that he went to his first meeting on
May 10, 1944, when the membership was about
15. Nobody could have told him then, he
writes, that three years later the group
would number approximately 150, with another
400 or so A.A.s active elsewhere throughout
the state.

- - - -

Message 1347

Grapevine, Feb 1947

Group Branches Out. -- Covington, La. Group
has started to include the towns of Hammond,
Bogalusa and surrounding rural areas since
its founding in November, 1945. After the
usual growing pains about a dozen are
continuously sober with two new members
celebrating their first year at a supper
recently. Bogalusa will have its own group
in the near future and Hammond is expected
to have a separate one soon. The three towns
may then hold an open meeting each month with
each town holding its own weekly meeting.
Much cooperation has been received from the
New Orleans Group.

- - - -

[NOTE: Covington and Hammond are about 25
miles (45 km) to the north of New Orleans, on
the other side of Lake Pontchartrain. Bogalusa
is about twice as far away, on the Mississippi
state line.

- - - -

Message 1333

Grapevine, Jan 47

Doctor, Psychiatrist Speak.--Signing the letter
"A-lways A-chieving," the A.A. Grapevine
correspondent from New Orleans reports Tuesday
night open meetings have heard a prominent
doctor of psychiatry, who agrees with the A.A.
program, and a national business executive
who recommends it. Visitors from many places
have visited the club room at 1113 Chartres
Street in the basement of General Beauregard's
former home and good Louisiana coffee is
promised to all who come that way.

- - - -

[NOTE: 1113 Chartres Street is in the old
French Quarter of New Orleans, one block
away from the Mississippi river, two blocks
down from Bourbon Street, and three blocks
over from St. Louis Cathedral]

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:FQ29Jan07ChartresPetitTheater1.jpg

http://www.pbase.com/septembermorn/image/58611317

http://www.art.com/asp/sp-asp/_/pd--10391683/Chartres_Street_New_Orleans_Lou
isia\

na.htm [20]

http://picasaweb.google.com/nwweinberg/TheQuarterHouseResortNewOrleansFrench
Quar\

ter/photo#5221590602611018002 [21]

http://www.foodhistory.com/foodnotes/road/la/no/napoleon/01/

http://www.pps.org/great_public_spaces/one?public_place_id=790&type_id=3

- - - -

Message 1311

Grapevine, Oct 46

A.A.s from New Orleans addressed the Hammond,
La., Group; attending were members from
chapters which derived from the original
New Orleans Group: Hammond, Covington, and
Houma, La.; Tylertown and Gulfport, Miss.
Quite a few veterans are coming into the
New Orleans chapter, direct from the Veterans
Hospital -- where the medical staff is 100%
for A.A.

- - - -

Message 1260

Grapevine, June 1946

The New Orleans, La., Group, started March 30,
1943, has grown to an active membership of
almost 200. They have been instrumental in
assisting to organize groups in Covington,
Abbeville, and Pollack, La.; and Tylertown,
Miss. The latest one started on the Mississippi
Gulf Coast includes members from Gulfport,
Biloxi, and other towns in the vicinity.
This group was suggested by the major in
charge of the Veterans Hospital at Gulfport,
who is interested in A.A. work. The same
applies to the Marine Hospital in New Orleans,
where the chief psychiatrist is a friend of
A.A. and has made some several talks before
the group.

- - - -

Message 1229

Grapevine, February 1946

Baton Rouge, La., A.A.s, at their first
anniversary meeting, were hosts to representa-
tive groups from New Orleans, Covington,
Bogalusa, Hammond, Franklinton, Gonzales,
Plaquemine, and Tylertown, Miss. One of the
guest speakers was the Rev. Henry A. Rickey
of Bogalusa, who attended the Yale School of
Alcohol Studies last summer; another was
Dr. Glenn J. Smith, superintendent of the
East Louisiana Hospital at Jackson, who spoke
of how much the people of the state were being
benefited by the work of A.A.

- - - -

Message 795

From Lois Remembers, various notes on Bill
and Lois W's travels .... 1943-4 trip
[pg 143-4] .... New Orleans, La

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++++Message 5196. . . . . . . . . . . . St. Johnsbury, Vermont -- Dr. Bob''s
childhood home
From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/28/2008 8:28:00 AM

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Friday I went to St. Johnsbury, Vermont, where
the childhood home of Dr. Bob is. His childhood
home is now a recovery drop-in center open to
the public

297 Summer Street, phone 802/751/8520,
email stjkrc@charterinternet.com
(stjkrc at charterinternet.com)

and even has daily AA meetings there. I was
able to visit young Bob's bedroom (above the
front porch), which is being renovated for
visitors to get a better sense of what it
might have looked like in the late 1800s.

Two blocks away is a small Core Library of
Dr. Bob archival materials (I was a little
disappointed because only about 5% of it is
actual Dr. Bob family stuff). It is housed
in the North Congregational Church library
at 1325 Main Street, St. Johnsbury, Vermont
05819 (telephone 802/748/2603).

Just Love,
Barefoot Bill

P.S. -- I also just got a good map of where
Ebby T.'s gravesite is near Albany, New York
(if you've ever been there before you'll
agree that it's hard to find). If anyone
wants a copy of this map please email your
request directly to me at

barefootbill@optonline.net
(barefootbill at optonline.net)

and I will email you back the pdf file.

Namaste.

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++++Message 5197. . . . . . . . . . . . Easy E. has just died (66 years of
sobriety)
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/30/2008 4:28:00 PM

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Forwarded by:
<Shakey1aa@aol.com> (Shakey1aa at aol.com)
"John Blair" <jblair@wmis.net> (jblair at wmis.net)
"Tom Hickcox" <cometkazie1@cox.net> (cometkazie1 at cox.net)

August 26, 2008

With sorrow at his passing but filled with
joy at having known this grand man, I
regretfully report to you that Muir “Easy”
Edney of Montgomery, Alabama, completed his
journey of 95 years peacefully this morning
and left for the Big Meeting.

For the past few years, Easy Edney was the
longest sober member of Alcoholics Anonymous.
Easy got sober Nov. 15, 1942, in Jacksonville
Florida, and then moved back to his home of
Montgomery where he helped start AA there. He
knew Bill Wilson.

Easy was in remarkably good shape to the end.
He still attended meetings and sponsored a
number of men until the last. I last saw
him in April at the Alabama/NW Florida Area
Assembly, which he faithfully attended over
the years.

Less well known is that Edney got his nickname
"Easy" from his hobby as a pool shark. Easy
was one of the 20th Century’s greatest pool
players, who successfully competed (sober!)
against such legends as Willie Mosconi and
Minnesota Fats.

One of the great rewards of AA has been the
opportunity to know men such as Easy. We
shall miss him.

Please feel free to forward this around, and
if more info is desired you may call me at
985/640/5552 or e-mail me at

jamestapes@aol.com (jamestapes at aol.com)

James Murrell 7/11/81

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++++Message 5198. . . . . . . . . . . . AA in New Orleans: Beauregard-Keyes
house
From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/30/2008 4:12:00 PM

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In Message 5195, Glenn C. cited the Grapevine
article which mentioned the AA clubroom in
the Beauregard-Keyes house in New Orleans.

>Grapevine, Jan 47
>
>Doctor, Psychiatrist Speak.--Signing the letter
>"A-lways A-chieving," the A.A. Grapevine
>correspondent from New Orleans reports Tuesday
>night open meetings have heard a prominent
>doctor of psychiatry, who agrees with the A.A.
>program, and a national business executive
>who recommends it. Visitors from many places
>have visited the club room at 1113 Chartres
>Street in the basement of General Beauregard's
>former home and good Louisiana coffee is
>promised to all who come that way.
>
>as quoted from AAHistoryLovers Message 1333

- - - -

To locate it a bit more precisely than Glenn
did, for the sake of visitors to New Orleans
the Beauregard-Keyes house is four blocks up
Chartres St. from St. Louis, across the street
from the Ursuline Convent. I like to stay in
the Hotel Provincial, across Ursuline St.
from the convent at 1024 Chartres.

The house is depicted here

<http://www.prairieghosts.com/beauhouse.html>

and here

<http://www.asergeev.com/pictures/archives/compress/2006/544/08.htm>

I do believe by "basement" they mean the street
level story. There are very few underground
basements in New Orleans.

Along the line of this thread, the first A.A.
meeting in Baton Rouge, about 70 miles as
the hurricane wanders NNW of New Orleans,
was held on December 10, 1944, at 720
Laurel Street. I'm not real sure when the
first group was organized.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

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++++Message 5199. . . . . . . . . . . . Kentucky''s Role in Early AA
From: Kevin Dew . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/30/2008 4:04:00 PM

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Hi Gang,

Don't know if I've ever posted before, but
had to send this.

Apparently, Kentucky has more influence on
the birth of AA than it just being the state
that makes the majority of the bourbon
whiskey consumed by qualifying members.

It was brought to my attention that Henrietta
Seiberling, is from and is buried in
Lawrenceburg, Kentucky, (home of Wild Turkey
and Four Roses whiskey). She introduced Bill
to Bob, as we all know.

Bill Dotson was a Kentuckian ... first AA
after Bill and Bob.

Doesn't count for much, just feeling
particularly proud to be a Kentuckian today.

Kevin, from KY

- - - -

From the moderator:

I have been told that AA in Louisville,
Kentucky, was founded by contact with the
AA group in Indianapolis, Indiana.

But I have never been able to verify this
from any archival sources, either in
Indiana or Kentucky.

The Indianapolis group had been started on
October 28, 1940 by Doherty Sheerin (with
help from James D. "J. D." Holmes, an
Akron newspaperman who was the tenth person
to get sober in AA). Dohr was the person
who sponsored Ralph Pfau (the Father John Doe
who wrote the Golden Books).

I think it would be great if all the states
in the union could put together historical
websites like the one which the Indiana AA
historians are the process of constructing:

http://hindsfoot.org/Nhome.html

I would particularly like to see a good
website established for Florida AA history,
to help in my project of writing about
Richmond Walker, the author of the 24 Hour
book.

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

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++++Message 5200. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Kentucky''s Role in Early AA
From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/30/2008 5:47:00 PM

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Location of Henrietta Seiberling's grave???

- - - -

At 15:04 8/30/2008, Kevin Dew wrote:

>It was brought to my attention that Henrietta
>Seiberling, is from and is buried in
>Lawrenceburg, Kentucky, (home of Wild Turkey
>and Four Roses whiskey). She introduced Bill
>to Bob, as we all know.

- - - -

Within the last year or so, someone was
searching for the exact location of
Seiberling's grave.

My daughter lives outside Lawrenceburg and
I have driven by the cemetery where she is
probably buried. I'd like to visit the
grave, but it's a large tract and I don't
know that I would be up to searching for
it w/o directions.

Has anyone come up with a good set of
directions for it?

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

- - - -

PHOTO OF GRAVESITE AT:

http://hindsfoot.org/photos1.html

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++++Message 5201. . . . . . . . . . . . Did Bill W. write an introduction to
another recovery book?
From: Byron Bateman . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/4/2008 4:18:00 AM

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Hi Group,

I have heard that Bill W. wrote a foreword or
introduction to/in another recovery book. This
supposedly came from a tape by Bob Earl???

I have searched the AAHL site but I didn't get
results with the wording I was using.

Does anyone have any information to share with
me as to whether this is fact, or fiction?

Best regards,

Byron B.

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++++Message 5202. . . . . . . . . . . . Is there something called the Bill
Wilson Yellow Papers?
From: austinjohnl . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/4/2008 8:21:00 AM

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I listened to a recovery talk on eating
disorders in recovery. In the talk the
speaker spoke about Bill Wilson in his later
life started looking for links between
addiction and connections to nutrition.
I know about the B-12 activities Bill
engaged in.

She referenced something she called the
"Bill Wilson Yellow Papers". She said these
were circulated by Bill but never published.

I did a few searches on Yellow Papers and
Bill Wilson but have gotten no hits. Has
anyone any knowledge of these papers? Maybe
the speaker was using the wrong name? Or
maybe these are folklore?

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++++Message 5203. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Is there something called the
Bill Wilson Yellow Papers?
From: khemex@comcast.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/5/2008 8:53:00 PM

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These papers do exist! I have a photo copy
of a set that Bill sent out to one of his most
trusted friends with this inscription and a
brief note stating that the Board of the
Alcoholic Foundation though he should cease
and desist because they felt that this would
drag AA into controvercial outside issues.

In these papers Bill talked about using mega
doses of B-12 (Nicotinic acid - Niacin) in
helping schizophrenics and those with
depressive disorders (of which Bill was one).
At the time both Bill and Lois where taking
this treatment and he seemed to think it
helped them and others

In the sprit of Love and Service to others!

Gerry Winkelman

- - - -

From the moderator: Niacin / nicotinic acid
is Vitamin B3, not Vitamin B12, according
to the internet reference sources I have
looked at.

- - - -

From: "rajiv.behappy" <rajiv.BeHappy@gmail.com>
(rajiv.BeHappy at gmail.com)

After 1965 Bill W wrote 3 papers for the
medical profession on Vit. B3 & nutrition, the
last one just before he died published
posthumously.

These might have been referred to as the
'yellow papers'. You can find it on pgs 388
to 391 in "Pass it On." Also extracts from
the papers can be fond in Joan Larson's
"Seven Weeks to Sobriety."

Much love,

Rajiv

- - - -

Original message from: "austinjohnl"
<austinjohnl@yahoo.com>
(austinjohnl at yahoo.com)

I listened to a recovery talk on eating
disorders in recovery. In the talk the
speaker spoke about Bill Wilson in his later
life started looking for links between
addiction and connections to nutrition.
I know about the B-12 activities Bill
engaged in.

She referenced something she called the
"Bill Wilson Yellow Papers". She said these
were circulated by Bill but never published.

I did a few searches on Yellow Papers and
Bill Wilson but have gotten no hits. Has
anyone any knowledge of these papers? Maybe
the speaker was using the wrong name? Or
maybe these are folklore?

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++++Message 5204. . . . . . . . . . . . Statement that Sister Ignatia / Lois
Wilson first met in 1935
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/7/2008 3:25:00 PM

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Fiona D. from Ireland pointed out to me an
interesting passage in William G. Borchert,
"The Lois Wilson Story: When Love Is Not
Enough," which gives Lois' account of the
way AA began. On p. 288 it says:
______________________________

"Lois once wrote that, outside of New York
and California, Al-Anon had expanded most
rapidly in those days in Akron and Cleveland,
Ohio, thanks to the seeds planted by Annie
Smith. But Lois had another lifelong comrade
too, who played a major role in carrying the
message of Al-Anon to wives and families.
Her name was Sister Mary Ignatia Gavin, a
member of the Sisters of Charity of St.
Augustine."

"LOIS HAD FIRST MET SISTER IGNATIA IN 1935
[my capitals] during her trip to Akron shortly
after Bill and Bob began their journey
together to create a Fellowship for drunks.
At the time, the diminutive Catholic nun with
a giant-sized heart was working with Dr. Bob
at St. Thomas Hospital and had been concerned
about his drinking problem for years. Once
she came to see the 'miraculous' work her
colleague and this 'mug from New York' were
doing with alcoholics, she immediately joined
their crusade."

Borchert goes on to give details of the way
that Sister Ignatia worked with the spouses
of alcoholics and encouraged the formation
of Al-Anon groups.
______________________________

One of the mysteries to me for many years has
been the problem of the statement made in
November 1940 by a Jesuit priest named Father
Ed Dowling, when he traveled to New York City
to visit Bill Wilson.

"I'm Father Ed Dowling from St. Louis," he said.
"A Jesuit friend and I have been struck by
the similarity of the AA twelve steps and
the Spiritual Exercises of St. Ignatius."
http://www.barefootsworld.net/aafreddowling.html

The problem is, how could Bill W. and the
other early AA's have known about Ignatian
spirituality or been influenced by it, prior
to the publication of the Big Book in 1939?
After 1939, numerous Roman Catholics began
joining AA, so seeing some Catholic influence
on AA spirituality after that date would
represent no problem.

St. Ignatius of Loyola, the Spanish Roman
Catholic who was the founder of the Jesuit
order, originally wrote the Spiritual Exercises
to provide a system of spiritual training for
Jesuit priests. But by the early twentieth
century, many other Roman Catholic orders (and
monasteries, convents, and seminaries) were
using an Ignatian spirituality based on the
Spiritual Exercises.

This was certainly true of Sister Ignatia's
religious order, and indeed, she was named
"Ignatia" after St. Ignatius when she joined
the Sisters of Charity. And after she began
setting up the alcoholic ward at St. Thomas
Hospital in 1939, she gave to each alcoholic
(when that person left the hospital) either a
booklet containing excerpts from the writings
of St. Ignatius of Loyola, or a classic book
of Catholic spirituality from a century or so
earlier, called The Imitation of Christ.

So at first glance, Sister Ignatia would seem
an obvious source of Ignatian spiritual ideas
in AA thought.

But the present accounts of Sister Ignatia's
linkage to AA seem to put the beginning of her
serious involvement in 1939, after the
publication of the Big Book. So how could
her understanding of spirituality influence
the ideas in the Big Book?

On the other hand, if what Borchert says (and
Lois remembered) is correct, then Sister
Ignatia was closely involved in some fashion
with the rise of the AA movement right from
the beginning in 1935, and becomes the obvious
candidate for most likely source of Ignatian
spiritual ideas in the spirituality of the
twelve steps.
______________________________

Fiona D. recommends Jim Harbaugh's book on
the Ignatian Exercises and the 12 steps to
those who would be interested in seeing how
Ignatian spirituality fits it with AA
principles.

She has also pointed out a couple of
interesting webpages, where The Upper Room
(another of the early formative influences
on AA spirituality) is now providing simple
instructions in carrying out some of Ignatius
of Loyola's Spiritual Exercises:

http://www.upperroom.org:80/methodx/thelife/prayermethods/examen.asp

http://www.upperroom.org:80/methodx/thelife/prayermethods/ignatian.asp

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

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++++Message 5205. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Is there something called the
Bill Wilson Yellow Papers?
From: Theron B. . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/9/2008 10:50:00 PM

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There is an original, printed copy of the
B-3 publication at the Akron A.A. Archives;
as I recall the cover is yellow. The moderator
is correct that B-3 is niacin, one form
of which is nicotinic acid, another is
nicotinamide. The pamphlet consists of several
medical papers on subjects related to the use
of niacin and its potential use in the
treatment of alcoholism. In addition to
treatment of schizophrenia with niacin,
there is information in the pamphlet about
a purported connection between alcoholism
and hypoglycemia (chronic low blood sugar).

The thesis of that paper is that the chemical
similarity of alcohol and sugar predisposes
hypoglycemics to alcoholism and that such
patients benefit from low carbohydrate, high
protein diets. Since this sort of diet often
is high in fatty foods, niacin is recommended
for control of cholesterol, for which it is
quite effective (from my personal experience).
I tried the low carb diet concept with niacin
and promptly lost 40 pounds and 50 points off
my cholesterol, so there is something to it.
This is not to be undertaken without consult-
ing your doctor, though, as there is some risk.

My recollection is that there were actually
two pamphlets on niacin therapy, although
it's been a few years since I read them and
I'm a bit vague on the details.

In Fellowship and Service,

Theron B.

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++++Message 5206. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Is there something called the
Bill Wilson Yellow Papers?
From: hartsell . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/10/2008 12:01:00 AM

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Hello, I am interested in this topic and would
gladly pay for a copy of the B-3 Publication
if anyone here could direct me to an appropriate
source. It is not possible for me to travel
to Akron at this time, so my interest must be
satisfied via the internet, mail, or telephone.

Suggestions will be appreciated.

Sherry C. Hartsell
Gilmer, TX
hartsell@etex.net
(hartsell at etex.net)

- - - -

Original message from: Theron B.
Subject: Re: Is there something called the
Bill Wilson Yellow Papers?

There is an original, printed copy of the
B-3 publication at the Akron A.A. Archives;
as I recall the cover is yellow. The moderator
is correct that B-3 is niacin, one form
of which is nicotinic acid, another is
nicotinamide. The pamphlet consists of several
medical papers on subjects related to the use
of niacin and its potential use in the
treatment of alcoholism. In addition to
treatment of schizophrenia with niacin,
there is information in the pamphlet about
a purported connection between alcoholism
and hypoglycemia (chronic low blood sugar).

The thesis of that paper is that the chemical
similarity of alcohol and sugar predisposes
hypoglycemics to alcoholism and that such
patients benefit from low carbohydrate, high
protein diets. Since this sort of diet often
is high in fatty foods, niacin is recommended
for control of cholesterol, for which it is
quite effective (from my personal experience).
I tried the low carb diet concept with niacin
and promptly lost 40 pounds and 50 points off
my cholesterol, so there is something to it.
This is not to be undertaken without consult-
ing your doctor, though, as there is some risk.

My recollection is that there were actually
two pamphlets on niacin therapy, although
it's been a few years since I read them and
I'm a bit vague on the details.

In Fellowship and Service,

Theron B.

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++++Message 5207. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Statement that Sister Ignatia /
Lois Wilson first met in 1935
From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/10/2008 8:46:00 AM

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--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,
Glenn Chesnut <glennccc@...> wrote:
>
<snip>
>
> "LOIS HAD FIRST MET SISTER IGNATIA IN 1935
> [my capitals] during her trip to Akron shortly
> after Bill and Bob began their journey
> together to create a Fellowship for drunks.
> At the time, the diminutive Catholic nun with
> a giant-sized heart was working with Dr. Bob
> at St. Thomas Hospital and had been concerned
> about his drinking problem for years.

<snip>

There is no reason to doubt that Sister
Ignatia knew Dr. Bob and was in a position to
have influenced early AA. But the following
hypothetical problem does not seem at all like
a problem to me:
>
> The problem is, how could Bill W. and the
> other early AA's have known about Ignatian
> spirituality or been influenced by it, prior
> to the publication of the Big Book in 1939?

. . . because, some Oxford Group people
were apparently fascinated with Ignatian
spirituality during the 1930s, Protestant
though they were.

Rose Macaulay spent months immersed in the
European Oxford Group in preparation for
writing her novel, "Going Abroad," which is
set in a resort area on the Basque coast of
Spain. Members of a group identifiable as the
OG are "working" among the vacationers, and
some of them carry vest-pocket editions of
the Spiritual Exercises with them at all
times. The crisis of the novel occurs during
a bus trip into the mountains to visit the
Shrine of Loyola.

I suppose it is possible Macaulay made the
Ignatian theme up out of whole cloth, but I
can't imagine why she would have devoted so
much effort to research unless she actually
was going to use what she found.

It is also possible that Bill and the American
OGers had no idea about what the European
branch was thinking, but there was substantial
trans-Atlantic communication so in all
probablity the American Groupers had some
interest in Ignatius as well.

Cora

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++++Message 5208. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Is there something called the
Bill Wilson Yellow Papers?
From: hartsell . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/10/2008 2:08:00 AM

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THIS IS THE PORTION OF THE ITEM WHICH CAUGHT
MY ATTENTION AND WOULD DEARLY LOVE TO HAVE
THE PAPER FROM WHICH IT WAS EXCERPTED:

"The thesis of that paper is that the chemical
similarity of alcohol and sugar predisposes
hypoglycemics to alcoholism and that such
patients benefit from low carbohydrate, high
protein diets. Since this sort of diet often
is high in fatty foods, niacin is recommended
for control of cholesterol, for which it is
quite effective (from my personal experience).
I tried the low carb diet concept with niacin
and promptly lost 40 pounds and 50 points off
my cholesterol, so there is something to it."

Suggestions will be appreciated.

Sherry C. Hartsell
Gilmer, TX
<hartsell@etex>
(hartsell at etex.net)

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++++Message 5209. . . . . . . . . . . . U.S. federal legislation early to
middle 1980''s
From: tigereaz . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/10/2008 11:39:00 PM

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In an effort to encourage treatment for drug
and alcohol abuse abatement the U.S. Government
allocated money for programs offering treatment
and research during the 1980's -- does anyone
know what the program or bill was called and
where I might access background info ...

TIA
Tigere

- - - -

From the moderator:

It would have been continuations and spinoffs
from the Hughes Act of 1970, enacted by
Senator Harold Hughes. Nancy Olson, the founder
of the AAHistoryLovers, was Senator Hughes'
aid in charge of alcoholism legislation.

Nancy described all of the legislation and
the founding of the current U.S. government
agencies dealing with alcoholism treatment
in the book she wrote in 2003. It is still
the work which is recommended reading for
all new staff at U.S. government agencies
and national granting foundations which deal
with alcoholism and drug addiction.

http://hindsfoot.org/kNO1.html
http://hindsfoot.org/kNO2.html
http://hindsfoot.org/kNO3.html
http://hindsfoot.org/nomem1.html
http://hindsfoot.org/NOmem2.html
http://hindsfoot.org/NOmem3.html
http://hindsfoot.org/NOmem4.html

Nancy Olson, With a Lot of Help from Our Friends:
The Politics of Alcoholism (2003).

"This book tells the inside story of government
attempts to deal with the American alcohol
problem from 1970 to 1980, the most important
decade in the history of alcohol legislation
since Prohibition, with the famous Hughes Act
as its centerpiece. We meet the friends and
supporters of Harold Hughes, the charismatic
senator and former governor from Iowa, and
Marty Mann, the beloved 'first lady of
Alcoholics Anonymous.'"

"The author, herself a major participant
in these events, describes the struggles
and triumphs of this small band of recovered
alcoholics and their friends as they bared
their souls before congressional hearings
and succeeded in convincing a Congress and
three reluctant Presidents to support this
effort."

- - - -

More from the moderator:

Senator Joseph R. Biden, Jr. from Delaware and
Representative Patrick J. Kennedy from Rhode
Island are currently proposing new bills
dealing with the U.S. federal government's
attempts to aid alcoholism treatment, see:

http://olpa.od.nih.gov/legislation/110/pendinglegislation/redesignation_inst
itut\

e.asp [22]

Legislative Updates

110th Congress
Public Laws | Pending Legislation

Redesignation of Institute Names

H.R. 1348/S. 1011
Background
In 1970, the “Hughes Act” established the
National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and
Alcoholism (NIAAA), which subsequently became
an Institute of the National Institutes of
Health (NIH) as a result of the Alcohol,
Drug Abuse, and Mental Health Administration
Reorganization Act of 1992. NIAAA conducts
and supports biomedical and behavioral research
with respect to the health, social, and
economic consequences of alcohol use. It also
funds research on the prevention of harmful
drinking patterns and the treatment of
alcoholism. NIAAA research includes a focus
on the beneficial effects of moderate alcohol
consumption for some people as well as the
negative effects of excessive alcohol use
and alcoholism. We now know that alcohol abuse
and alcohol dependence (i.e., alcoholism)
are not separate diagnostic categories, but
instead exist along a single continuum of
alcohol disorders associated with increased
frequency of a harmful drinking pattern.

Initially established in 1974, the National
Institute on Drug Abuse (NIDA) became an NIH
Institute in 1992. NIDA conducts and funds
cutting-edge research to improve our national
health and well-being by reducing the burden
of drug use and addiction on individuals and
society as a whole. In addition, NIDA
emphasizes addiction as a preventable and
treatable disease, working to remove the
stigma associated with addiction and
underscore that diseases of addiction are
critical national health issues.

Two bills have been introduced in the 110th
Congress that would recognize addiction as a
preventable and treatable neurobiological
disease and better identify the role and
mission of NIAAA and NIDA. The legislation
would change the name of NIAAA to the National
Institute on Alcohol Disorders and Health and
the name of NIDA to the National Institute
on Diseases of Addiction.

These changes would remove the pejorative term
“abuse” from the names of the Institutes and
link the concepts of addiction and disease in
order to diminish the social stigma,
discrimination, and personal shame that
are often barriers to seeking treatment.

Provisions of the Legislation/Impact on NIH
H.R. 1348 and S. 1011 would amend the Public
Health Service Act and related enactments to
redesignate NIAAA as the National Institute
on Alcohol Disorders and Health and NIDA as
the National Institute on Diseases of
Addiction. Despite the proposed name changes,
the mission of NIAAA and NIDA would remain
the same.

Status and Outlook
H.R. 1348, the NIDA and NIAAA Name Redesignation
Act, was introduced by Representative Patrick
J. Kennedy (D-RI) on March 6, 2007, and was
referred to the House Committee on Energy and
Commerce. No further action has occurred on
this legislation.

S. 1011, the Recognizing Addiction as a Disease
Act of 2007, was introduced by Senator Joseph R.
Biden, Jr. (D-DE) on March 28, 2007, and was
referred to the Senate Committee on Health,
Education, Labor and Pensions. No further
action has occurred on this legislation.

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++++Message 5210. . . . . . . . . . . . Akron Voices from the Past
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/11/2008 4:04:00 PM

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From: "Fiona Dodd" <fionadodd@eircom.net>
(fionadodd at eircom.net)

Akron A.A. Archives
Voices from the Past

http://www.akronaaarchives.org/

The Akron AA Archives has been blessed with
stewardship of a substantial, rare collection
of recorded speaker “leads” dating back to
the early days of our fellowship. Currently
there are over 400 of these talks representing
a treasure of early AA history, many in
their original form on cassettes or
reel-to-reel tape. These have been “passed on”
to us by members and treated with loving
care. However without appropriate preservation,
these links to the past were in danger of
being lost forever.

Modern technology has provided a solution.
What's more, we can now make these memories
come alive for all AA members!

We have the capacity to digitize these rare
recordings and to preserve them as high
quality “uncompressed WAV files”. Our goal
is to make these amazing and inspiring
recorvery resources available to the worldwide
fellowship of AA.

Our starting point on this project is to
provide the talks of early and influential
members who are featured in the 1980 “Dr. Bob
and the Good Oldtimers” (an Alcoholics
Anonymous World Services, Inc. publication).
You will be able to listen to them on-line
or download as .mp3 files, along with an
index showing where these speakers are
featured in the text. Transcripts will be
made available as time allows.

Archie T. “The Man Who Mastered Fear”
Sobriety Date: September 3, 1938

Archie came to Akron in September of 1938 and stayed for 10½ months with
Dr. Bob
and Anne Smith before returning to take A.A. back to Michigan. He appears in
“Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers” on pages 115-116, 182.

Norman Y.
Sobriety Date: January 28, 1939

Norman had lost his wife and family, his job and his sight to bootleg liquor
when Jack D. took the A.A. message to him in Youngstown. In 1940 he had the
Big
Book transcribed in braille and sent out to other blind A.A. members. He
appears
in “Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers” on pages 183-184, 221, 223, 249-250,
263.

Danny K.
Sobriety Date: During WWII

A minister's son from Barberton, Ohio and physically handicapped from
childhood,
Dan describes his journey on the “road to hell”. He came to St. Thomas
Hospital
under the care of Dr. Bob and Sister Ignatia during WWII. He appears in
“Dr. Bob
and the Good Oldtimers” on pages 192, 224-225, 233, 275, 281-282, 296.

Ann C.
Sobriety Date: April 1, 1948

The daughter of a lay minister, teetotaling Ann was living in Akron,
teaching
Sunday School and working as a waitress at the lunch counter of the 2nd
National
Bank Building. She watched the doctor with a perpetual hangover and wonder
why
he didn't “just quit drinking”. She saw him again years later at the
podium of
the King School group, not knowing he was “the” Dr. Bob, co-founder of
the
program that saved her life. She appears in “Dr. Bob and the Good
Oldtimers” on
pages 34, 245, 333, 342.

Bruce M.
Sobriety Date: October 1945

A graduate of both Duke and Yale law schools, by early 1945 Bruce found
himself
about to lose his wife, his children and his job. Two members of a Canton AA
group answered his desperate call for help in October of that year. His
achievements, awards, and citations over the next 40 “sober” years are
testament
to the power of unity, service, and recovery in AA. He was recently
remembered
as #129 in a November 21, 2005 Canton Repository story called “200 HELPED
SHAPE
CANTON.”
He appears in “Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers” on pages 276-277.

Ed B.
Sobriety Date: August 8, 1944

Ed's service to the Akron area spanned nearly three decades. He is perhaps
best
remembered as editor of the Akron Intergroup News.
He appears in “Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers” on pages 148, 150, 224,
228-230,
271, 274-275, 325-326.

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++++Message 5211. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Niacin
From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/10/2008 3:11:00 AM

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Thanks for the information. Before we use
niacin, we should be sure of the dangers.
I dug this stuff up but I think a medical
doctor should be consulted before taking any
large doses of niacin.

I don't want people in the AAHistoryLovers
to hurt themselves, or give credence to some
of these claims (such as helping in losing
weight).

George

This _medication_
(http://www.righthealth.com/Health/Medication/-od-definition_wiki_Medication
-s)
is sometimes prescribed for other uses; ask your doctor
or pharmacist for more information.
What SPECIAL PRECAUTIONS should I follow?

Before taking _niacin_
(http://www.righthealth.com/Health/Niacin/-od-definition_adam_1_0024091-s) ,
* tell your doctor and _pharmacist_
(http://www.righthealth.com/Health/Pharmacist/-od-definition_wiki_Pharmacist
-s)
if you are allergic to niacin,
aspirin, tartrazine (a yellow dye in some processed foods and drugs), or any
other drugs.
* tell your doctor and _pharmacist_
(http://www.righthealth.com/Health/Pharmacist/-od-definition_wiki_Pharmacist
-s)
what prescription and
nonprescription medications you are taking, especially anticoagulants (blood
thinners)
such as warfarin (Coumadin), medications for _high blood pressure_
(http://www.righthealth.com/Health/High_Blood_Pressure/-od-definition_adam_1
_000\

4681-s [23])
or diabetes and other vitamins. If you take insulin or oral diabetes
medication, your dose may need to be changed because _niacin_
(http://www.righthealth.com/Health/Niacin/-od-definition_adam_1_0024091-s)
may
increase the amount
of sugar in your blood and urine.
* tell your doctor if you drink _large_
(http://www.righthealth.com/Health/Large/-od-definition_wiki_Large-s)
amounts
of alcohol and if you have or
have ever had diabetes; gout; ulcers; allergies; _jaundice_
(http://www.righthealth.com/Health/Jaundice/-od-definition_wiki_Jaundice-s)
(yellowing of the
skin or eyes); or gallbladder, heart, or liver disease.
* tell your doctor if you are pregnant, plan to become pregnant, or
are breast-feeding. If you become pregnant while taking _niacin_
(http://www.righthealth.com/Health/Niacin/-od-definition_adam_1_0024091-s) ,
call your
doctor.
* if you are having _surgery_
(http://www.righthealth.com/Health/Surgery/-od-definition_wiki_Surgery-s) ,
including dental surgery, tell the doctor
or dentist that you are taking niacin.
* you should know that this _drug_
(http://www.righthealth.com/Health/Drug/-od-definition_wiki_Drug-s) may make
you drowsy. Do not drive a car or
operate machinery until you know how this _drug_
(http://www.righthealth.com/Health/Drug/-od-definition_wiki_Drug-s) affects
you.
* remember that alcohol can _add_
(http://www.righthealth.com/Health/Add/-od-definition_adam_1_0015511-s) to
the
drowsiness caused by this drug.
* you should know that _niacin_
(http://www.righthealth.com/Health/Niacin/-od-definition_adam_1_0024091-s)
causes flushing (redness) of the face and
neck. This side effect usually goes away after taking the _medicine_
(http://www.righthealth.com/Health/Medicine/-od-definition_wiki_Medicine-s)
for
a
few weeks. Avoid drinking alcohol or hot drinks around the time you take
_niacin_
(http://www.righthealth.com/Health/Niacin/-od-definition_adam_1_0024091-s)
. Taking aspirin or another nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory medication such
as
ibuprofen (Advil, Motrin) or naproxen (Aleve, Naprosyn) 30 minutes before
niacin may reduce the _flushing_
(http://www.righthealth.com/Health/Flushing/-od-definition_adam_1_0032411-s)
.
If you take extended-release niacin at
bedtime, the flushing will probably happen while you are asleep. If you wake
up
and
feel flushed, get up slowly, especially if you feel dizzy or faint.

What SPECIAL DIETARY instructions should I follow?

If you take niacin to reduce the amount of _cholesterol_
(http://www.righthealth.com/Health/Cholesterol/-od-definition_adam_1_0024721
-s)
and fats in your
blood, eat a low-cholesterol, low-fat diet. Follow the diet prescribed by
your doctor.
What should I do IF I FORGET to take a dose?

Take the missed dose as soon as you remember it. However, if it is almost
time for the next dose, skip the missed dose and continue your regular
_dosing_
(http://www.righthealth.com/Health/Dosing/-od-definition_wiki_Dosing-s)
schedule. Do not take a double dose to make up for a missed one.
What SIDE EFFECTS can this _medicine_
(http://www.righthealth.com/Health/Medicine/-od-definition_wiki_Medicine-s)
cause?

Niacin may cause side effects. Tell your doctor if any of these symptoms are
severe or do not go away:
* _itching_
(http://www.righthealth.com/Health/Itching/-od-definition_adam_1_0032171-s)
,
stinging, tingling, or burning of the skin
* headache
* _blurred vision_
(http://www.righthealth.com/Health/Blurred_Vision/-od-definition_adam_1_0030
291-\

s [24])
* upset stomach
* _vomiting_
(http://www.righthealth.com/Health/Vomiting/-od-definition_adam_1_0031171-s)
* diarrhea
* heartburn
* _bloating_
(http://www.righthealth.com/Health/Bloating/-od-definition_wiki_Bloating-s)
If you experience any of the following symptoms, call your doctor
immediately:
* _dizziness_
(http://www.righthealth.com/Health/Dizziness/-od-definition_adam_1_0030931-s)
* faintness
* fast heartbeat
* yellowing of the _skin_
(http://www.righthealth.com/Health/Skin/-od-definition_wiki_Skin-s) or eyes
If you experience a serious side effect, you or your doctor may send a
_report_
(http://www.righthealth.com/Health/Report/-od-definition_wiki_Report-s)
to the Food and Drug Administration's (FDA) MedWatch Adverse Event Reporting
program online [at _http://www.fda.gov/MedWatch/report.htm _
(http://www.fda.gov/MedWatch/report.htm) ] or by phone [1-800-332-1088].

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++++Message 5212. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Is there something called the
Bill Wilson Yellow Papers?
From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/10/2008 7:32:00 AM

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I believe that Charlie Bishop once reprinted
the Vitamin B papers in a limited edition and
some may still be out there. Maybe, if there
is enough interest in these, Charlie might be
prevailed upon to reprint them.

- - - -

From: DudleyDobinson@aol.com
(DudleyDobinson at aol.com)

Hi

Check out eBay item 350095605732 at http://www.ebay.com/

Dudley

- - - -

From: Sober186@aol.com (Sober186 at aol.com)

I would start by calling the Akron Intergroup:

Akron Intergroup Council and
Akron A.A. Archives
775 N Main
Akron, OHIO 44310
United States
Phone: 330 / 253 / 8181

Email: info@akronaa.org (info at akronaa.org)

http://www.akronaa.org

http://www.akronaa.org/Archives/archives.html

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++++Message 5213. . . . . . . . . . . . More on Sister Ignatia''s
birthplace: Griffith''s Land Valuation
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/15/2008 11:32:00 PM

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From: "Fiona Dodd"
<fionadodd@eircom.net> (fionadodd at eircom.net)

More on Sister Ignatia's birthplace in
Ireland: The Neary family's rental holdings
in Griffith's Land Valuation of 1855. When
Patrick Gavin and Barbara Neary (Ignatia's
father and mother) got married, the couple
set up housekeeping in a part of County Mayo
where numerous members of the Neary family
lived, renting land on the Earl of Lucan's
estate.

One of the records available for research in
Ireland is Griffith's Land Valuation of 1855.
The Primary Valuation was the first full-scale
valuation of property in Ireland. It was
overseen by Richard Griffith and published
between 1847 and 1864. It is one of the most
important surviving 19th century genealogical
sources. Griffith's Valuation is important
because there are very few Census or other
records available for 19th century Ireland.

One of the interesting things discovered while
searching through it is that there is no
record of Gavin or Neary settled in Ballyhean,
indeed there is no record of a place name
called Shanvilly/Shanvalley in Ballyhean.
What the record clearly shows is the
Neary/Narry family being settled in
Shanvoley/Shanvalley, Turlough, renting
land from the Lucan Estate.

For additional information see:

http://hindsfoot.org/ignatia2.html

- - - -

From Message 5114, for photos of Sister
Ignatia's birthplace and additional
information see:

http://hindsfoot.org/ignatia1.html

Sister Ignatia's birthplace in Ireland:
Photos of the just discovered ruins of the
two-roomed stone cottage where Sister
Ignatia Gavin, the Angel of Alcoholics
Anonymous, was born on 2 January 1889 at
Shanvalley, Burren, in County Mayo. Photos
and description (13 July 2008) by the Irish
AA historian Fiona D.

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++++Message 5214. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Is there something called the
Bill Wilson Yellow Papers?
From: Chris Budnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/15/2008 10:33:00 PM

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I have a copy. It is has a pink cover and
says "Bill Wilson & The Vitamin B-3 Therapy
1965 - 1971"

The back cover lists 6 items also available
for purchase from "The Bishop of Books"
(Charlie Bishop).

The copy I have is stamped #055
Limited Edition of 200 Copies
June 1993

The contents page lists:

p. 1 Introduction

p. 3 The Saskatchewan Researchers

p. 3 The Saskatchewan Findings

p. 4 Dr. Hoffers' Endorsement of
Niacin/Nicotinamide as Safe
Under All Conditions

p. 4 Two Tests for Recognizing
Schizophrenia

p. 8 Categories of Schizophrenia

p. 9 Case Histories

p. 16 Schizophrenics Anonymous

p. 18 Other Uses of Massive Vitamin B-3

p. 19 Vitamin B-3: Its Tonic Properties

p. 21 Appendix 1: Physical Treatment and
Psychiatric Approach

p. 27 Appendix II: Bibliography

p. 28 Appendix III: Wholesalers, Niacin
and Nicotinamide

Chris

- - - -

In response to the message from: Mitchell K.
Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008
Subject: Re: Is there something called the
Bill Wilson Yellow Papers?

I believe that Charlie Bishop once reprinted
the Vitamin B papers in a limited edition and
some may still be out there. Maybe, if there
is enough interest in these, Charlie might be
prevailed upon to reprint them.

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++++Message 5215. . . . . . . . . . . . Remote Communities Committee
From: jeff e. . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/15/2008 2:03:00 PM

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Hi all. I recently went from holding the
position of Remote Communities chair at
district level to being drafted to hold the
position at the area level.

I was wondering if anybody had some history
on the formation of these committees within
the service structure and maybe in some more
detail how they came to include not just
remote locations but also came to deal with
the barriers of language and culture that
may stand in the way of a potential AA hearing
the message.

I have some information from the general
service conference a few years back, but
thought I'd see what else was available.
I may be in a position where I have to
present this service commitment to other
districts in my area and thought it would
be helpful to have a better sense of the
history.

Thanks, Jeff

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++++Message 5216. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Niacin
From: Sally Brown . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/14/2008 1:07:00 AM

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I don't know what the equivalent dosage of
the niacin injections taken by early AAs was
to today's niacin pills. I learned the hard
way that more than 500 mg per day of our
modern pills could be dangerous and possibly
lethal.

What happened was this. Based on the advice
and experience of many oldtimers here in
California, niacin was being touted as an
excellent supplement for recovery. We newer
folks were advised to start slowly with 100 mg
a day, and every 5-7 days add another
100 mg until we were taking about 900 mg/day.
We were told to expect a temporary "red flush"
of the skin for 10-30 minutes as the dosage
increased. Never discussed it with my doctor
because I thought oldtimers knew everything.
Besides, niacin was a kind of vitamin, and
weren't vitamins supposed to be good for you?

Soon after reaching the 800-900 mg limit, I
found myself retching uncontrollably every
morning. Bummer. THEN I checked with my
doctor, who immediately ordered a liver panel.
Bad news. I was in imminent danger of slipping
into liver failure. I stopped the niacin
instantly and have never gone back to it.
I also stopped vomiting the next day, and
my liver immediately thanked me and returned
to normal.

You know the lessons I learned!

Shalom -- Sally

Rev Sally Brown
Board Certified Chaplain
United Church of Christ

Coauthor with David R Brown:
A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann:
The First Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous
http://www.sallyanddavidbrown.com

1470 Sand Hill Rd, 309
Palo Alto, California 94304
Phone/Fax: 650 325 5258
Email: rev.sally@att.net
(rev.sally at att.net)

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++++Message 5217. . . . . . . . . . . . Fred G., "New Vision for a
Sculptor," 2nd ed. Big Book
From: mdingle76 . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/16/2008 7:26:00 PM

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2nd edition Big Book story, "New Vision for a
Sculptor," is about Fred Ginsberg. Fred was
dry (without the aid of AA) 10 years when he
met an old friend who was in AA and invited
him to his first meeting.

The friend in the story was Devoe Bingham
(whose wife was Ann Bingham — Al-Anon's
co-founder with Lois Wilson). Devoe owned
the Chrysler dealership in Chappaqua (I think
on King St.) which is probably where the
following story took place:

A week or ten days before Decoration Day, I was
having gasoline put into my car and a very dear
friend who had gone to school with me and who
had a severe alcoholic problem of his own -- he
was an A.A., whatever that was -- came up to me
and . . . said, "Hello, Fred, how's your
alcoholic problem?" I laughed. I said, "I
haven't any alcoholic problem. In fact, on
Decoration Day my wife and I are going to try
a bottle of champagne." He got as white as a
sheet, and put his hand on my arm and said,
"Look, before you take that first drink will
you please come to an A.A. meeting? There's
one in town tonight and I'll call for you."
I just had to say "Yes." And that was the
evening that I was taken into A.A. That man
had been wanting to talk to me for ten years
about my drinking and never had the courage
to mention it. That was about May 20, 1947.
(Taken from: New Vision for a Sculptor.)

- - - -

Message 5080

In message 5021, Jared Lobdell
<jlobdell54@hotmail.com> (jlobdell54 at hotmail.com)
commented:

"I'd be interested to know which was the
story Tom included [in the second edition of
the Big Book] that some AAs didn't like (or
whose author they didn't like)."

- - - -

Matt D. <mdingle76@yahoo.com>
(mdingle76 at yahoo.com) responds:

2nd edition story: "New Vision for a Sculptor."
The author's name was Fred (I think) Ginsberg.

Matt D

- - - -

For more about that story, see:

http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/Authors.htm
(http://silkworth.net/aabiography/storyauthors.html)

"New Vision for a Sculptor"
Fred (last name unknown)
New York City
p. 426 in 2nd edition

- - - -

Message 5081 from Mike Saulle
<saulle18509@yahoo.com>
(saulle18509 at yahoo.com)

The 2nd edition Big Book story "New Vision
for a Sculptor" can be found in "Experience,
Strength and Hope," the AAWS collection of
all the earlier Big Book stories which are
no longer in the present edition of the Big
Book: see pages 166-178.

- - - -

Message 5083 from Matt D.
<mdingle76@yahoo.com> (mdingle76 at yahoo.com)

"New Vision for a Sculptor" was controversial
because Fred Ginsberg didn't get officially
sober in AA -- he was ten years dry when he
hit his first AA meeting.

Matt D.

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++++Message 5218. . . . . . . . . . . . The Collected Ernie Kurtz
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/17/2008 5:24:00 PM

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New publication:

Ernest Kurtz, The Collected Ernie Kurtz,
June 2008, ISBN 978-0-595-52099-2, xiv + 232 pp.

http://hindsfoot.org/ktcek1.html

(An exact reprint of the first edition of
The Collected Ernie Kurtz, which was published
in 1999 by The Bishop of Books, Charles Bishop,
Jr., 46 Eureka Ave., Wheeling, WV 26003, in
a limited edition of 1,000 copies.)

Kurtz's articles in this volume include:

"Bill W. Takes LSD"

"The Spirituality of William James"

"Spiritual Rather Than Religious"

"Why A.A. Works: The Intellectual Significance
of Alcoholics Anonymous"

"Is Spuds McKenzie Just Another 'Booze Hound?'"

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++++Message 5219. . . . . . . . . . . . 2008 National AA Archives Workshop?
From: rick tompkins . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/17/2008 7:20:00 PM

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Did any members of this egroup participate in
Buffalo, New York, last long weekend?

Hope it was a successful event, please share!

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++++Message 5220. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Editors of Second Edition: Tom
P.
From: mdingle76 . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/19/2008 9:06:00 AM

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Thomas E. Powers interview

Found this transcript in the East Ridge
archives. The interview is with Catherine N.
who was sent out by headquarters to interview
AA oldtimers for a book that actually never
got published. The interview took place in
the early 90s and "TEP" is Thomas E. Powers.
I thought it might be of interest to the group
and shed a little light on the selection and
capturing process of the 2nd edition stories:

Tom Jr.- Bill himself at one point said, in
a meeting, that you wrote half of 12&12. Don R.
told me that.

Interviewer- I had picked this up too, this
is what I am slowly getting to.

Tom Jr.- And you did a lot of the work on
12&12 and you did a lot of work on AA Comes
of Age.

TEP- And on the revision of the Big Book I
did all the writing. On the revised stories.
The actual revision of the Big Book didn't
amount to a damn as far as the text was
concerned. Almost nothing.

Interviewer- So you did all the editing of
the stories?

TEP- No, I did the writing.

Tom Jr.- They came in on tapes.

TEP- They came in on tapes, and I took the
tape and wrote the story.

Interviewer- Would those tapes still exist?

TEP- Well they might, I don't know how good
the archives are at GS.

Interviewer- Boy, that would be very
interesting to hear how they came in . . .
and to hear . . . because you actually did
the work.

Tom Jr.- Yes.

TEP- Yeah, I did all of it for the new stories
and the revision of the old stories. But
that's just hack work, for Christ's sake.
There's nothing to that. Well that's an art
because you got to know how to transcribe and
respect the authenticity of the material, and
also you got to respect the style of the
person. So it's not hack work either.

Interviewer- I don't find it. . . . I mean
this would be the last thing that I would call
hack work. I know what you're saying.

TEP- Well I made a mistake.

(Much later in interview)

Interviewer- O.K. Tom, let's go back to the
writing. There are two other books that you
worked on. The 2nd edition of the BB. Now the
story is, the official version is that Bill
went around and taped those new stories.

TEP- Bill didn't go around, he had his
secretary . . . . he had them taped. When
he'd decided that Joe Blow had a story, then
you would send a person out with a tape to
Joe Blow's meeting, even when Joe Blow didn't
know it, and tape it, without setting it up.
That's how you got. . . .

Interviewer- How you got the good stuff.

TEP- Yeah, if you told them to have Joe Blow
talk, that would ruin it. He'd go out until
Joe was telling it, say Joe is going to be
speaking so maybe. . . . then we would have
somebody in there. . . and get the story and
come back and you had. . . It was always swell.

(Now there's a lot of talk about how they
recorded the talks this way to avoid fiction-
alizing.)

TEP- Well that's what we were into, and that
was the reasons the stories in that second
edition are superb. I don't know whether you
know it or not.

Interviewer- So they just have these notions
of who they might want to include.

TEP- Oh, you discussed and said, you've got to
get Joe Mina's story.

(The ? comes up what is the decision process
for stories — the selection process?)

TEP- Wilson and I decided.

Interviewer- Oh that's what I wanted to know.

(More talk)

Interviewer- So you and Wilson decided. So
we're going to use this guy, and let's get
this guy and this guy. So you sent somebody
out there, and they. . . when they were
speaking, and they taped the stories. And
that's the way you got it.

TEP- That's the way you got it. You never got
the guy to sit down to tell his story. Or you
never got him when he knew he was being taped
for posterity. And you tried not to get him
in a convention. . . . you're on stage!

(More talk)

Interviewer- So that was that was my big
question about the 2nd edition, and did you,
in order to get the number of stories that
you actually . . . and I don't know how many
stories are in there. How many did you weed
out?

TEP- Well, I suppose, while this went on,
selecting materials, you would have a hundred
names, right? Somebody liked my name, early
on we'd say, that guy would be damned good.
And that guy . . . there was nothing
preventative. It wasn't easy to go out and
get it. It was expensive so you just didn't
go out and capture everybody.

- - - -

Message 5021
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/5021

> Message #5003 from Jared Lobdell
> jlobdell54@hotmail.com (jlobdell54 at hotmail.com)
> noted that
>
> "the chief editor for the second edition was
> Edward Hale B."
>
> It went on to say that other editors included
> "Tom (whether P. – of the 12&12 - or Y. - of
> the Grapevine - I don't know)."
> ______________________________
>
> In a further message (18 May 2008) to
> mdingle76@... (mdingle76 at yahoo.com)
>
> Jared Lobdell added the following remark:
>
> "Thanks very much. My guess had been it was
> Tom P (rather than Tom Y) but I wasn't sure.

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++++Message 5221. . . . . . . . . . . . Manic-Depressive Alcoholics
From: David LeBlanc . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/17/2008 5:32:00 PM

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On page xxviii in the Big
Book it says "There is
the manic-depressive
type, who is, perhaps,
the least understood by
his friends, and about
whom a whole chapter
could be written." I
wonder if any more on
this subject was written
in early AA history. Can
anyone help?
David

- - - -

From the moderator: just a brief suggestion,
please, about how to get at answering this
question. We really need to stick to
theories about manic depression from the
1930's, when the Big Book was written.

There has been a whole of work by psychiatrists
on treating manic-depressives (bipolars they
are called today) which is interesting, but
not relevant to the AAHistoryLovers.

So again, the question here is, what did
that sentence in the Big Book mean to people
in 1939?

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

P.S. For a modern account of how alcoholics
who are also bipolar deal with their problems,
the most useful thing I have ever read is
written by an AA oldtimer, Jane S., who is
herself bipolar, in a book called "Q & A:
Alcoholism and Sobriety"

http://hindsfoot.org/kqa1.html

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++++Message 5222. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Editors of Second Edition: Tom
P.
From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/19/2008 5:41:00 PM

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Thomas E. Powers interview in Message 5220
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/5220

"TEP" (Thomas E. Powers) and "Tom Jr."

I might suggest that it's not clear that
there are two Tom Powers, senior and junior.
I have corresponded with the latter. He runs
the East Ridge Recovery Center, which is in
a remote part of New York State overlooking
the Delaware River, and is connected with a
group called All Addicts Anonymous:

http://alladdictsanonymous.org/

Several years ago Tom Sr's copy of the 12x12,
one of the first five printed and inscribed
by Wilson, sold on eBay for a lot of money.

Tommy

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++++Message 5223. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Niacin
From: James Flynn . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/17/2008 7:19:00 PM

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Yes Bill also used LSD for its "therapuetic
value" but I don't see any oldtimers promoting
the use of LSD. (And if I ever do meet any
I will run like hell in the other direction.)
Bill W. was a remarkable guy with some screwy
ideas from time to time.

Jim F.

- - - -

From: "ROB M" <hjfree@fuse.net>
(hjfree at fuse.net)

I sat next to an anesthesiologist at an AA
meeting, who after listening to the
"old timers" define what and how medicine
played a role in recovery, leaned over to
me and said,

"You know there's a special term for that
kind of instruction ....

24 to 36 months and a fine not to exeed
$25,000 for practicing medicine without
a license."

Blessed2bSober

Rob

--- On Sat, 9/13/08, Sally Brown <rev.sally@att.net> wrote:

From: Sally Brown <rev.sally@att.net>
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Niacin
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, September 13, 2008, 10:07 PM

I don't know what the equivalent dosage of
the niacin injections taken by early AAs was
to today's niacin pills. I learned the hard
way that more than 500 mg per day of our
modern pills could be dangerous and possibly
lethal.

What happened was this. Based on the advice
and experience of many oldtimers here in
California, niacin was being touted as an
excellent supplement for recovery. We newer
folks were advised to start slowly with 100 mg
a day, and every 5-7 days add another
100 mg until we were taking about 900 mg/day.
We were told to expect a temporary "red flush"
of the skin for 10-30 minutes as the dosage
increased. Never discussed it with my doctor
because I thought oldtimers knew everything.
Besides, niacin was a kind of vitamin, and
weren't vitamins supposed to be good for you?

Soon after reaching the 800-900 mg limit, I
found myself retching uncontrollably every
morning. Bummer. THEN I checked with my
doctor, who immediately ordered a liver panel.
Bad news. I was in imminent danger of slipping
into liver failure. I stopped the niacin
instantly and have never gone back to it.
I also stopped vomiting the next day, and
my liver immediately thanked me and returned
to normal.

You know the lessons I learned!

Shalom -- Sally

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++++Message 5224. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Is there something called the
Bill Wilson Yellow Papers?
From: khemex@comcast.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/18/2008 7:54:00 PM

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The copy that is being reprinted and passed
around must be missing the front cover which
is titled

- - - -

"A COMMUNICATION TO A.A'S PHYSICIANS
From Bill W.

December, 1965

THE VITAMIN B-3 THERAPY:

A Promising Treatment for Schizophrenia -- and
its high relevance to the field of alcoholism.

P.S. Please note that the enclosed material
is not for public quotation or use. ---B.W."

- - - -

Because my copy does have that front cover,
I'm inclined to oblige by Bill W.'s wishes
and not circulate this material.

Gerry Winkelman

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++++Message 5225. . . . . . . . . . . . Lee T. foreword to A New Pair of
Glasses
From: bigbookken . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/21/2008 12:06:00 PM

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Hello everyone, and thanks for being here!

I am trying to learn who "Lee T." was who
wrote the Foreword to A New Pair of Glasses,
and his whereabouts.

I searched this group's archives and found
Message #4926

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/4926

but couldn't follow it any
farther.

Any help is appreciated.

Thanks,

Ken

- - - -

From the moderator: Lee T. seems to have
been the person who took the tape recordings
of the talks which Chuck Chamberlain gave
at the 1975 Pala Mesa Retreat, and transcribed
them and put them into book form, at least
from what is written in this web group:

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/FOBWi/message/19254

A New Pair Of Glasses, Foreword by Lee T.,
August 1983, Part 5, page xiii

With the help of Chuck C. and his wife, Elsa,
we have put these tapes into writing so that
the countless number of people that Chuck has
touched and will touch in the future may have
a volume to pick up and gain comfort from.
Here then, as told to sixty-four men at
Pala Mesa are the thoughts of Chuck C.
Thoughts which will help you see the world
through a new pair of glasses.

- - - -

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/FOBWi/message/19190

The preface to A New Pair of Glasses was
written by "Clancy I. Los Angeles 1983"

So why don't you or someone else in our
group just ask Clancy what he knows?

- - - -

Chuck Chamberlain was a very well known early
AA member in California. Nancy Olson brought
him to Washington, D.C., to testify before
the U.S. Senate Committee which was drawing up
the Hughes Act:


http://westbalto.a-1associates.com/TESTIMONY/chuckchamberlain.htm

If Nancy were still with us, she would probably
have known who Lee T. was.

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++++Message 5226. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Niacin
From: Tom White . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/20/2008 3:26:00 PM

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Bill and "Medicine":

Of all AAs, Bill W. was perhaps the least
liable to take someone else's word for
something. He was an inveterate experimenter,
a true child of the now long-gone age of the
"worship of science," if I may call it that.
And when he and TEP and others went to Calif-
ornia to take LSD it was as an experiment.
I doubt any of them would have recommended it
to any other AA. It was a group of (then)
like-minded close friends. And keep in mind
that at that time, pre-Tim Leary, there was
not yet any big public hurrah and virtually
nothing yet known about LSD that could be
called science. None of them ever boomed it
later, except maybe A. Huxley, who was
involved. I know because I was fairly close
to some of the "actors" in that LSD experiment.
I suppose, too, Sally Brown, could be got for
"practicing medicine." I think there perhaps
ought to be a fine for practicing soul-cure
without a license, but then that could get
complicated. Hohoho. Tom White

- - - -

From: jenny andrews <jennylaurie1@hotmail.com>
(jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com)

From Pass It On (p369ff):

English psychiatrists Humphry Osmond and Abram
Hoffer had used LSD and mescaline to treat
schizophrenics and thought it could also help
alcoholics. "I (Osmond) told Bill about it
and he was extremely unthrilled. He was very
much against giving alcoholics drugs..."

Later, however, Bill became interested when
he heard the two doctors were getting results...

"So I (Bill) consider LSD to be of some value
to some people, and practically no damage to
anyone. It will never take the place of the
existing means by which we can reduce the ego,
and keep it reduced."

Nell Wing recalls LSD being used to treat
alcoholics "... and they had about 15 per cent
recoveries. This was all a scientific thing....
he (Bill) gave his full enthusiasm to what
other people were doing along that line (sic!).
That's why he took it himself. He had an
experience that was totally spiritual, like
his initial spiritual experience."

... Bill even persuaded Lois to take LSD ....
Most AA's were violently opposed to his
experimenting with a mind-altering substance.
LSD was then totally unfamiliar, poorly
researched, and entirely experimental - and
Bill was taking it....

"I (Bill) have taken lysergic acid several
times, and have collected considerable
information about it ... there is the
probability that prayer, fasting, meditation,
despair, and other conditions that predispose
one to classic mystical experiences do have
their medical components... It would certainly
be a huge misfortune if it (LSD) ever got
loose in the general public without careful
preparation....I do believe I am perfectly
aware of the dangers to AA. I know that I
must not compromise its future and would
gladly withdraw from these activities if ever
this became apparent."

By 1959 Bill had withdrawn from the LSD
experiments. He did so gracefully....

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++++Message 5227. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Niacin and LSD
From: Jim S. . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/21/2008 1:36:00 PM

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So true. We don't hear anyone advocating the
sauerkraut and tomato treatment, either.

Jim S.

- - - -

AND FROM THE OTHER SIDE:

From: "CloydG" <cloydg449@sbcglobal.net>
(cloydg449 at sbcglobal.net)

The LSD therapy was not a street drug
experience. According to the reports I have
read in years past, the doses were very
limited, there were no hallucinations and
it was an experimental technique that was

thought to be a solution for clinical
depression. So in all fairness to those who
volunteered, I think some of this background
should be shared.

- - - -

RESPONDING TO THE MESSAGE FROM

James Flynn <jdf10487@...> who wrote:
>
> Yes Bill also used LSD for its "therapuetic
> value" but I don't see any oldtimers promoting
> the use of LSD. (And if I ever do meet any
> I will run like hell in the other direction.)
> Bill W. was a remarkable guy with some screwy
> ideas from time to time.
>
> Jim F.
>

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++++Message 5228. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Niacin and LSD
From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/21/2008 3:13:00 PM

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British radio commentator Gerald Heard
introduced Bill W to Aldous Huxley and
British psychiatrists Humphrey Osmond and
Abram Hoffer. Humphrey and Osmond were
working with schizophrenic and alcoholic
patients at a Canadian hospital.

Bill joined with Heard and Huxley and first
took LSD in California on August 29, 1956. At
the time, LSD was thought to have psycho-
therapeutic potential (research was also being
funded by the National Institutes of Health
and National Academy of Sciences). The intent
of Osmond and Hoffer was to induce an
experience similar to the DTs in hopes that
it might shock alcoholics away from alcohol.

Among those invited to experiment with LSD
(and who accepted) were Nell Wing, Father
Ed Dowling, Sam Shoemaker and Lois Wilson.
Marty M and other AA members participated in
New York (under medical supervision by a
psychiatrist from Roosevelt Hospital).

Bill had several experiments with LSD up to
1959 (perhaps into the early 1960's). The
book “Pass It On” (on pgs 368 to 377) reports
the full LSD story and notes that there were
repercussions within AA over these activities.
Lois was a reluctant participant and claimed
to have had no response to the chemical.

Hoffer and Osmond did research that later
influenced Bill, in December 1966, to
enthusiastically embrace a campaign to
promote vitamin B3 (niacin) therapy. It
also created Traditions issues within the
Fellowship and caused a bit of an uproar.

Cheers
Arthur

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++++Message 5229. . . . . . . . . . . . A book by Reese
From: Fiona Dodd . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/22/2008 4:36:00 PM

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I have been reading some correspondence from
Sackville of Dublin to Sr Ignatia and in two
of his letters he mentions a book published
by Vantage Press by an author called Reece.
Said Vantage Press were trying to get a
European edition published and publisher and
author offered Sackville half the royalty
profits which he states "sounded too much
like sharp business".

Has anyone any idea what the book was or
who the author was?

Fiona

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++++Message 5230. . . . . . . . . . . . Sackville said Sr Ignatia came from
the Ballina area
From: Fiona Dodd . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/22/2008 5:17:00 PM

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I have recently received copies of corres-
pondence between Sackville of Dublin and
Sr Ignatia in Cleveland. In one written in
November 1959 he mentions the spread of AA
from Dublin to the west of Ireland.

"Meantime, you may be glad to know that AA is
catching fire slowly in the west of Ireland.
We have established three new groups there
this year and re-formed one. There is not yet,
sad to relate, one in your native Ballina,
but there are a couple of members there who
attend a neighbouring group and who will in
God's own time start their own. Ballina, of
course, is highly qualified to support a group
of its own."

Indeed Sackville - we now have five groups
and ten meetings a week in town!

If as previously stated Ignatia had been
reared in Shanvilly, Ballyhean then
Castlebar would have been her "native"
town. Ballina's hinterland encompasses the
Laherdane area where Shanvalley, Burren lies.

Ballina in the 1890's, with a population of
5000 was a thriving market town with a port
which remained active up until the 1980's.
It had flour and saw mills and a rail link to
the rest of the country.

Fiona

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++++Message 5231. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Early four step AA program ???
From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/23/2008 12:20:00 PM

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From What is the Oxford Group:

To be spiritually reborn, and to live in the
state in which these four points are the
guides to our life in God, the Oxford Group
advocate four practical spiritual activities:

1. The Sharing of our sins and temptations
with another Christian life given to God,
and to use Sharing as Witness to help others,
still unchanged, to recognize and acknowledge
their sins.

2. Surrender of our life, past, present,
and future, into God's keeping and direction.

3. Restitution to all whom we have wronged
directly or indirectly.

4. Listening to, accepting, relying on God's
Guidance and carrying it out in everything
we do or say, great or small.

These spiritual activities have proved
indispensable to countless numbers who are
living Changed lives. They are not new ideas
nor inventions of the Oxford Group. They
are the simple tenets of simple Christianity.

John B

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "rajiv.behappy"
<rajiv.BeHappy@...> wrote:
>
> After reading Hank Parkhurst's proposed outline
> for the Big book, it seems clear to me that the
> original program had four steps in 1938 and not
> the 6 Steps that Bill W wrote about as the
> original AA's word-of-mouth steps in the July
> 1953 Grapevine article (and in AA Comes of Age).
>
> Do any of you know what the original four steps
> were?
>
> Much Love
>
> Rajiv Bhole
>
> - - - -
>
> Message #2567: HANK P.'s FOUR STEP RENDITION
> From: <mertonmm3@...>
> (mertonmm3 at yahoo.com)
>
> "In my mind religious experience - religion -
> etc. should not be brought in. We are actually
> irreligious - but we are trying to be helpful
> - we have learned to be quiet - to be more
> truthful - to be more honest - to try to be
> more unselfish - to make other fellows troubles
> - our troubles - and by following four steps
> most of us have a religious experience. The
> fellowship - the unselfishness appeals to us."
>
> - - - -
>
> From the moderator, Glenn C.:
>
> Rajiv, you needed to keep on reading in that
> document,where Hank went on to say further
> along:
>
> "I am fearfully afraid that we are emphasizing
> religious experience when actually that is
> something that follows as a result of 1 - 2 -
> 3 - 4.
>
> "In my mind the question is not particularly
> the strength of the experience as much as the
> improvement over what we were. I would ask a
> man to compare himself as follows after say
> a month –
>
> "#1 - As compared to 2 months ago do you have
> more of a feeling that there is a power greater
> than you [?]
>
> "#2 - Have you cleaned out more completely
> with a human being than ever before?
>
> "#3 - Have you less bad things behind you
> than ever before [?]
>
> "#4 - Have you been more honest with youself
> and your fellow man - Have you been more
> honest with yourself and your fellow man -
> Have you been more thoughtful of people with
> whom you are associated - Has your life been
> cleaner both by thought & action - Have you
> looked at others less critically and yourself
> more critically this last 30 days. You will
> never be perfect but the question is have you
> been more perfect?"
>
> - - - -
>
> These were not "four steps" that you took, in
> the same sense as the twelve steps of the
> twelve step program in the Big Book.
>
> - - - -
>
> There is also a mention of "four steps" in
> Message #2788 from <tcumming@...>
> (tcumming at nc.rr.com), where it says:
>
> From the end of a 1st edition of the Big Book
> story titled THE CAR SMASHER, page 369:
>
> "There are, it seems to me, four steps to be
> taken by one who is a victim of alcoholism.
> First: Have a real desire to quit.
> Second: Admit you can't. (This is hardest.)
> Third: Ask for His ever present help.
> Fourth: Accept and acknowledge this help."
>
> [That mans story is also on pg 193 of 2nd &
> 3rd ed, but it was rewritten and renamed to
> He Had to Be Shown, and does not have the 4
> Steps.]
>
> - - - -
>
> That was intended for people at the very
> beginning, when they first came into
> Alcoholics Anonymous. There were other
> things that people had to do after that
> (confession, restitution, regular prayer
> and quiet time, and so on) which were
> recognized as necessities in AA from the
> beginning (and went back to Oxford Group
> practice).
>
> So it seems to me that it would be very
> misleading to say that "the original program
> had four steps in 1938."
>
> Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana, U.S.)
>

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++++Message 5232. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Some Notes on the AA Original
Manuscript Up for Auction
From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/22/2008 5:59:00 PM

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Dr. Bevoise is Herb Debevoise (Herb D) from
South Orange, New Jersey.

John B

- - - -

Bill Schaberg had written:

I noticed that the name of Doctor Howard was
just about everywhere in the manuscript. He
sure had a LOT to say about edits to our book.
In addition, two other doctors I have never
before heard referenced as contributors of
Big Book suggestions list (Dr. Witherspoon
& Dr. Bevoise [sp?]) are also found here.

- - - -

In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,
"Doug B." <dougb@...> wrote:
>
> Bill,
>
> Thanks for your observations...my spine was tingling!
>
> I found the following Dr's that might fit your question:
>
> Dr James Wainwright Howard from Montclair, NJ graduated P&S in 1919
> Dr Charles Russell Witherspoon from Rochester, NY graduated Uof P in
> 1898
> No mention of a Dr. Bevoise [any spelling]) in NY, NJ or CT in 1936
>
> Doug B.

- - - -

> schaberg43 wrote:
>
> > I went down to Sotheby's today to take a long look at the Original
> > Manuscript copy that they will be auctioning off on Thursday, June
> > 21st. This is the OM copy where Hank, Ruth, Bill, and others
> > recorded ALL of the suggestions that they received for edits
before
> > actually printing the first edition of the Big Book. It is an
> > important historical document on many levels, but most
importantly,
> > I think, because it shows who made some of the suggestions and
also
> > allows you to see the suggestions that our founders did NOT take
> > when editing the Big Book.
> >
> > NOTE: I was privileged with a private viewing of this copy of the
> > Original Manuscript because I had assisted the cataloger in his
> > write up of the history of the Original Manuscript printings –
> > which, with the 13 photos, takes up 11½ pages of the catalog.
While
> > I had only 20 minutes to look at this piece when it was first
> > auctioned off in June of 2004, this time Sotheby's allowed me over
> > two hours to examine this important copy and it was a truly
amazing
> > two hours! What a piece of AA history!
> >
> > Just a couple of highlights.
> >
> > The original front cover of this copy is stamped in black
> > ink: "LOANED COPY" – something I have heard about but never seen
> > before. {Note: this copy is missing the original back cover along
> > with the two pages of "Index" usually found in these copies.)
> >
> > The reverse side (verso) of the title page has a long handwritten
> > note on it (see photo in lower left on page 224 of the Sotheby's
> > catalog). This note continues onto the verso of another loose
piece
> > of paper that is also included here (but not pictured in the
> > catalog).
> >
> > This is the manuscript copy of four paragraphs that were inserted
> > into "Bill's Story." The paragraphs in question are the first four
> > complete paragraphs found on page 12 of our basic text – starting
> > with "Despite…" and ending with "…would!" These additions –
> > certainly the largest edit to the Big Book immediately before it
was
> > published – include some extremely important AA precepts, not
least
> > of which is the italicized quote: "Why don't you choose your own
> > conception of God?"
> >
> > This manuscript section is not in Bill's hand. I suspect
(especially
> > given the free use of abbreviations) that it was written there by
> > Ruth Hock – either transcribed from Bill's notes or taken down
from
> > dictation.
> >
> > Once again, I noticed that the name of Doctor Howard was just
about
> > everywhere in the manuscript. He sure had a LOT to say about edits
> > to our book. In addition, two other doctors I have never before
> > heard referenced as contributors of Big Book suggestions list (Dr.
> > Witherspoon & Dr. Bevoise [sp?]) are also found here.
> >
> > The Manuscript is littered with several comments that seem to be
> > rather off-handed. One noted that something was "too groupy," i.e.
> > Oxford Groupy. But, my favorite was opposite the first three
> > paragraphs currently found on page 80 of the Big Book about making
> > amends: "Dangerous for the NUTS – some could go higher than a
kite."
> >
> > And there is some real history here. On the pages containing the
> > dropped story "Ace Full – Seven – Eleven," Bill has written the
> > author's name (something which has not been, to my knowledge, so
far
> > discovered) and includes a short comment on why the story has been
> > dropped. (I will refrain from sharing that information here since
it
> > rightly belongs to the owner of this copy of the Original
> > Manuscript.)
> >
> > Finally, it is interesting to note that none of the suggested
> > changes to Dr. Bob's story were taken. Someone – in an effort to
cut
> > the text – had advised deleting three paragraphs and Dr. Howard
> > wanted the last line of his story to read: "Your FAITH will never
> > let you down!" Bob, obviously, thought the story should remain `as
> > is.'
> >
> > If you are anywhere within driving distance of New York City, I
> > would advise you to make a trip there this coming Friday, June
15th
> > through Wednesday, June 20th to see this remarkable piece of our
> > history and to "put your hands on the Book." It was a very moving
> > experience for both me and my sponsor who joined me for this trip!
> >
> > Old Bill
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

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++++Message 5233. . . . . . . . . . . . Philosophy of Courage, introduced
From: james ryan . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/23/2008 7:16:00 PM

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AAHistoryLovers may be interested to know
that your moderator has written a generous
foreword to Philip Leon's Philosophy of
Courage, a book that expresses Oxford Group
ideas in philosophical form.

Leon's book was published in the same year as
the AA Big Book, so its take on Oxford Group
ideas is helpful in understanding both what
AA took from the OG, and what we left behind.

The full text of the Philosophy of Courage
will be made available shortly. Currently,
you can read Glenn's foreword in full at
stepstudy.org

>>Permanent link:
http://stepstudy.org/2008/09/23/foreword-to-philip-leons-philosophy-of-coura
ge-b\

y-glenn-f-chesnut/ [25]

Glenn's forward moves through Leon's book
chapter by chapter, introducing and explaining
key ideas. The Philosophy of Courage is not
always an easy book to read, so this foreword
should prove useful even to the most
philosophically minded drunks among us.

Enjoy

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++++Message 5234. . . . . . . . . . . . Philosophy of Courage, posted
From: james ryan . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/26/2008 1:33:00 PM

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The Philosophy of Courage, with Glenn F.
Chesnut's introduction, is now available
in the downloads section of stepstudy.org.

http://stepstudy.org/downloads-2/

http://stepstudy.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/philosophyofcourage.pdf

In fellowship,
James R.

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++++Message 5235. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: 2008 National AA Archives
Workshop?
From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/21/2008 8:45:00 PM

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Hi Rick

I had the opportunity to be there with good
friends, good AA history and Niagara Falls.
Overall, it was a wonderful experience. I also
had the opportunity to visit with the Akron
Archives folks before and after the NAW and
they are a treasure. Two PowerPoint
presentations on Saturday night highlighted
the event for me. Gail LaC of Akron Archives
gave a delightful presentation on her mentor
Nell Wing (with extended audio of Nell). Then
Jay M of Akron Archives gave a presentation
on "How Rockefeller Helped AA" that was an
absolute tour de force (and will be a future
book).

The approximately 1,900 members of this forum
should be encouraged to attend and support
the NAW. My only gripe (if you could call it
that) is that their multiple simultaneous
breakout sessions on Archives related topics
made me want to be in multiple places at the
same time. The NAW has effectively evolved
into a unique institution for those having a
love of AA History and the AA Archives service
function. The next NAW will be in southern
California and, the good Lord willing, I hope
to be there.

Cheers
Arthur

PS - the NAW is also an opportunity for the
"e-mailers" of this forum to get to see what
we look like (smile).

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++++Message 5236. . . . . . . . . . . . Dates and printings of various AA
books
From: JOHN WIKELIUS . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/23/2008 11:35:00 PM

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I am looking for help regarding dates and
printings of various AA books. If you have
a library or resource please advise:

nov85@graceba.net
(nov85 at graceba.net)

Working on a pamphlet with cover art and
printings of each publication.

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++++Message 5237. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: A book by Reese
From: Fiona Dodd . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/24/2008 1:46:00 PM

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I received some further information in
relation to Reese's book from a friend.

"But for the Grace of God: The Story of an
Alcoholic," copyright 1957.

A handwritten note says the book was out of
print in 1966. On the back cover, it says ...
He is/was "a cattle breeder and purchasing
agent living on a model farm near Davidsville,
Pa.... For years, he had been selling story
ideas to authors and finally decided to write
a story of his own, based on the lives of people
he had known, and colored from his own rich
background of varied experience. An admirer
and devoted pupil of Sister Ignatia, "The Angel
of AA," for a number of years, he became
impressed with the success of the "orthodox"
method of AA - which is directed at treating
"the whole man, and replacing misery with
happiness, not just leaving him an unhappy
nondrinker." Data for the present work was
collected through thousands of miles of travel
with his wife Ethel, and the story is founded
on fact." "In the foreword Reese says,
"... While all the incidents of the book are
not literally true, the story of Tom and Hazel
Keigwin is founded in reality.

My guess from just flipping through the book,
is that "only the names" have been changed
and this is the story of John and his wife and
family, etc. I noted that the nun's name at
St. Thomas is given as "Sr. Felice" and the
one at Charity was "Sr.Celia."

- - - -

From: Charlie C <route20guy@yahoo.com>
(route20guy at yahoo.com)

I checked this in the subscription version of
WorldCat, and only see three titles for an
author named Reece and publisher named Vantage.
I am guessing that the title, "How to find real
peace and happiness" by F.A. Reece, 1976, is
most likely, but there is another 1976 title
by F.A. Reece from 1976, "World War III - 1977?".
The third title is a mystery from 1989...

If you have other information I can check for
you. The free version of WorldCat, worldcat.org,
is fine for many sorts of research, but the more
exhaustive source is the subscription version
that most academic libraries use.

Charlie C.
IM = route20guy

- - - -

From the moderator, if we do a search for
the title "But for the Grace of God: The
Story of an Alcoholic" at

http://www.worldcat.org/

We come out with the following:

But for the grace of God; the story of an alcoholic.
by John D Reese
New York, Vantage Press [1957]
[1st ed.]

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++++Message 5238. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Lee T. foreword to A New Pair of
Glasses
From: aalogsdon@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/24/2008 9:52:00 AM

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Jerry Logsdon here. To get the history of
A NEW PAIR OF GLASSES read pages 376-379 of
the book THE WHEEL AND I by John Crean.
He was the man behind A NEW PAIR OF GLASSES
being written.

I talked to Clancy I. this a.m. and asked him
about Lee T. who wrote the foreword to A NEW
PAIR OF GLASSES. He couldn't recall his last
name, but told me that perhaps Lee wasn't the
best choice for the job. He died drunk a few
years later in Sacramento (Clancy thought
perhaps two years later).

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++++Message 5239. . . . . . . . . . . . ABE Books newsletter article on
alcoholism and AA
From: pauguspass . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/25/2008 9:36:00 PM

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Maybe a kudo can be cast to ABEBooks.com for
their September issue of the online newsletter
The Avid Reader.

They give some suggestions for books by authors
known to dabble in alcohol and drugs.

And at the end, one of our favorites.

http://www.abebooks.com/books/alcoholic-authors.shtml?cm_mmc=nl-_-nl-_-AR-09
-08-\

_-booze [26]

George Cleveland

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++++Message 5240. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: 2008 National AA Archives
Workshop?
From: jayaa82@earthlink.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/27/2008 5:37:00 PM

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I completely concur with Arthur's take on
the NAW, everyone should be there if they
have a chance. Almost more important than
the workshops is the networking and just
exchanging ideas with other archivists all
over the world.

I also really appreciate his kind comments
on my Rockefeller talk, it was a 7 year
journey of research and love. The book is
done and "in the wind" looking for a
publisher.

Thanks again Arthur.

Jay M.

----- Original Message -----
From: Arthur S
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 9/27/2008 4:55:51 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: 2008 National AA Archives Workshop?

Hi Rick

I had the opportunity to be there with good
friends, good AA history and Niagara Falls.
Overall, it was a wonderful experience. I also
had the opportunity to visit with the Akron
Archives folks before and after the NAW and
they are a treasure. Two PowerPoint
presentations on Saturday night highlighted
the event for me. Gail LaC of Akron Archives
gave a delightful presentation on her mentor
Nell Wing (with extended audio of Nell). Then
Jay M of Akron Archives gave a presentation
on "How Rockefeller Helped AA" that was an
absolute tour de force (and will be a future
book).

The approximately 1,900 members of this forum
should be encouraged to attend and support
the NAW. My only gripe (if you could call it
that) is that their multiple simultaneous
breakout sessions on Archives related topics
made me want to be in multiple places at the
same time. The NAW has effectively evolved
into a unique institution for those having a
love of AA History and the AA Archives service
function. The next NAW will be in southern
California and, the good Lord willing, I hope
to be there.

Cheers
Arthur

PS - the NAW is also an opportunity for the
"e-mailers" of this forum to get to see what
we look like (smile).

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 5241. . . . . . . . . . . . Ebby automobile crash
From: rodwoodard . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/1/2008 2:54:00 PM

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Regarding how Ebby was saved from incarceration
by Cebra Graves and Rowland Hazard and how Ebby
came to be in trouble with the local law
enforcement officials...

Can anyone confirm the validity of the story
about Ebby Thacher running his car into a
house? I've found this storey on several web
sites, one being Ebby's eulogy delivered by
Bill Wilson:

http://www.rewritables.net/cybriety/ebby%27s_eulogy.htm

I've also heard/read stories that he was
shooting pigeons at the Vermont house.

Nothing I've found is confirmed with police
records or any substantive evidence.

Thanks,

Rod

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++++Message 5242. . . . . . . . . . . . Ernie K. to speak Nov. 8, 2008
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/1/2008 10:32:00 PM

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Ernie K. (Ann Arbor, Michigan) will be
speaking on "Varieties of AA Experience"
at the Michiana Conference in South Bend,
Indiana, at 4:15 p.m. on Saturday,
November 8, 2008.

The topic will be the various types and
styles of early AA belief and practice,
where -- just as William James discovered
when he investigated religious experience
in general -- there was more than one way
to interpret and carry out the AA program.

His talk will be introduced by Glenn C.
(South Bend, Indiana).

For more information on the conference see:

http://hindsfoot.org/mchcon08.html

South Bend is on I80-I90 (the Indiana
Toll Road) 95 miles east of Chicago.

- - - -

Other speakers will include (in the morning)
Larry W., whose sponsor was Ernie Gerig of
Toledo, one of the original Akron AA group,
see Message 3779:

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/3779

(This was NOT the same Ernie as Ernie
Galbraith of "The Seventh Month Slip," the
man who married Dr. Bob's daughter Sue.)

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++++Message 5243. . . . . . . . . . . . Ebby before the Magistrate
From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/3/2008 8:33:00 AM

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The transcript of Bill W's 1954 conversation
with Cebra G, in the GSO Archives, gives some
details on Ebby's "court appearances," and
there's material in Mel B's little book on
Ebby.

The car-in-the-kitchen incident came first
and Ebby came up before the District
Magistrate, Cebra's father (Cebe's brother
Van has said that no written record exists
of this and he should know -- he was the
Prosecuting Attorney then). Ebby was released
on his own recognizance (if that's the right
term) pending a full hearing.

A little later came the pigeon incident and
before he came up before the magistrate on
that, Cebe and one of the others visited him
and Cebe told him he didn't have to live like
this any more.

When Ebby came up before the Magistrate for
the preliminary hearing on this, the Magistrate
(Cebe's father, you recall) sent him to NYC
in Rowland's custody (Rowland being 53, while
Cebe was only 35 or so), and the rest of the
story we know.

I believe all the charges lapsed or were nol
prossed but Van Graves could probably tell us
(though, of course, he is 102-plus and a bit
deaf, so conversation is difficult). Both the
people I know who have talked to Van recently
report his emphasis that his father wasn't a
Judge and that when Ebby appeared before him
it wasn't a formal judicial hearing -- and
thus, I gather, no formal record has survived.

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++++Message 5244. . . . . . . . . . . . Growing up
From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/3/2008 5:57:00 AM

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"Those adolescent urges that so many of us
have for complete approval, utter security
and perfect romance - urges quite appropriate
to age 17 - prove to be an impossible way of
life at 47 or 57. Since AA began, I've taken
huge wallops in all these areas because of
my failure to grow up, emotionally and
spiritually."

(Grapevine, January 1958, reprinted in
"As Bill Sees It" - page 330).

Is this veiled reference the only place where
Bill admits to the alleged marital infidelity
recorded by later writers (Robertson, Cheever,
Hartigan)?

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++++Message 5245. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Ebby before the Magistrate
From: LES COLE . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/3/2008 5:01:00 PM

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Hi Jared:

You will recall that I visited Van Graves in
the Assisted Living Home in Bennington during
my trip to Vermont in the summer of 2006.

Van made the point that it was "he" was a
"Judge" and that his father, Collins, was
"head" of the "family Court". (Perhaps the
correct name is "Municipal").

Van was adamant on that point. He seemed to
have strong feelings on that score.

I also have copies of Superior Court records
which list CEBRA as States Attorney during the
years that the Ebby incidents occurred, and it
was Cebra's father, Collins, who released Ebby
to Roland's custody.

I think it is safe for us to believe that it
was the combination of Cebra/Collins which
made those outcomes pretty obvious and foregone
conclusions.

I believe the history is correct that Ebby
then went to stay with Roland at his Glastenbury
home for several weeks before he went to
Calvary House in New York City. I believe that
Van was not a "Prosecutor" since he was a
"Judge" and had no part in the Ebby events in
a different "court".

Your research at Brown is probably the most
comprehensive of any which has been done. Have
you found any documentation which differs from
my findings? Please let me know.

You are correct that "there are no records" now
available because I asked at the office of the
current Municipal court in Bennington and they
said that no records exist now. Surely there
were records kept, but they just have not survived
there in Bennington.

Best regards,

Les

- - - -

jlobdell54@hotmail.com
Subject: Ebby before the Magistrate

The transcript of Bill W's 1954 conversation with Cebra G, in the GSO
Archives,
gives some details on Ebby's "court appearances," andthere's material in Mel
B's
little book on Ebby.The car-in-the-kitchen incident came first and Ebby came
up
before the District Magistrate, Cebra's father (Cebe's brother Van has said
that
no written record exists of this and he should know -- he was the
Prosecuting
Attorney then). Ebby was released on his own recognizance (if that's the
right
term) pending a full hearing.A little later came the pigeon incident and
before
he came up before the magistrate on that, Cebe and one of the others visited
him
and Cebe told him he didn't have to live like this any more.When Ebby came
up
before the Magistrate for the preliminary hearing on this, the Magistrate
(Cebe's father, you recall) sent him to NYC in Rowland's custody (Rowland
being
53, while Cebe was only 35 or so), and the rest of the story we know.I
believe
all the charges lapsed or were nol prossed but Van Graves could probably
tell us
(though, of course, he is 102-plus and a bit deaf, so conversation is
difficult). Both the people I know who have talked to Van recently report
his
emphasis that his father wasn't a Judge and that when Ebby appeared before
him
it wasn't a formal judicial hearing -- and thus, I gather, no formal record
has
survived.

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++++Message 5246. . . . . . . . . . . . Dick B. in California: October
10-13, 2008
From: diazeztone . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/30/2008 4:26:00 PM

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Recovery History Conference with Dick B. in
Southern California -- October 10-13, 2008

Friday, October 10th in Pasadena
10:00 A.M. to 3:30 P.M.

Saturday, October 11th in North Hollywood
1:30 P.M. to 4:00 P.M.

Sunday, October 12th in Pasadena
10:00 A.M. to 9:00 P.M.

Monday, October 13th in San Dimas
7:00 P.M. to 9:30 P.M.

The conference flyer is posted on several sites:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/blog/post/PLNK3CQ94A1K5JNDE

http://dailystrength.org/c/Alcoholism/forum/4807013-early-aa-history

http://www.anythingboard.com/showthread.php?t=86

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++++Message 5247. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Ernie K. to speak Nov. 8, 2008
From: Woodstock . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/3/2008 12:07:00 PM

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A CD DISK WILL BE AVAILABLE:

I am so hoping Ernie's talk makes it to the
web. I would absolutely be excited to hear
his presentation regarding this subject.

Peace,
Jim Sc.
Pensacola, FL

- - - -
From: carol cosens <delorac06@yahoo.com>
(delorac06 at yahoo.com)
Hi is there anyway I could get a copy of
Ernie's talk? thanks carol c
- - - -
From: <edie.s@tx.rr.com> (edie.s at tx.rr.com)
Will anyone be recording Ernie's talk? I'd
like to have in any format.
- - - -

ASK FOR THE CD OF THE TALK
by Ernie K. from Ann Arbor, Michigan, at
the Michiana Conference in South Bend on
November 8, 2008:

BLUEPRINT TAPES
960 Morgan St.
Clinton, Indiana 47842
email: BlueprintTapes@aol.com
phone: 765 / 832 / 9971

- - - -

Glenn Chesnut <glennccc@...> wrote:
>
> Ernie K. (Ann Arbor, Michigan) will be
> speaking on "Varieties of AA Experience"
> at the Michiana Conference in South Bend,
> Indiana, at 4:15 p.m. on Saturday,
> November 8, 2008.
>
> The topic will be the various types and
> styles of early AA belief and practice,
> where -- just as William James discovered
> when he investigated religious experience
> in general -- there was more than one way
> to interpret and carry out the AA program.
>
> http://hindsfoot.org/mchcon08.html

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++++Message 5248. . . . . . . . . . . . Mel B.''s talk in South Bend in 2007
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/3/2008 5:13:00 PM

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AA historian Mel B. (sober 1950) told his
story at the Michiana Conference in South Bend,
Indiana, a year ago, in 2007 (the same
conference where Ernie K. will be speaking
this year).

A CD disk of that talk is also available from
Blueprint Tapes.

Mel B. was the primary author of Pass It On,
the conference biography of Bill W., also see:

http://www.walkindryplaces.com/books.html

Ask for a CD of the talk by Mel B. from
Toledo, Ohio, at the Michiana Conference in
South Bend on September 15, 2007:

Blueprint Tapes
960 Morgan St.
Clinton, Indiana 47842
email: BlueprintTapes@aol.com
phone: 765 / 832 / 9971

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++++Message 5249. . . . . . . . . . . . Fifty Books Tracing AA''s History
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/3/2008 6:29:00 PM

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The 2009 Alcoholics Anonymous History Calendar
produced by Charlie Bishop, Jr., the AA book
dealer and bibliographer, contains Charlie's
selection of what he believes to be the fifty
best books to read for a good understanding of
A.A. history.

http://hindsfoot.org/fiftybk.html

It's a thought provoking list, both in terms
of what it includes and what it does not
include.

- - - -

For example, Charlie includes

LeClair Bissell and James E. Royce, Ethics
for Addiction Professionals (Hazelden 1987)

We have had almost nothing in the AAHistoryLovers
about LeClair, in spite of the fact that she
was a very important figure. Sally Brown can
maybe help us out, because she and David talk
about LeClair in the Marty Mann book. LeClair
died just a few weeks ago:

http://www.news-press.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080827/NEWS0116/80827
0408\

/1001/archives [27]

"Retired Sanibel physician LeClair Bissell,
an internationally known and much-published
expert on addiction, died August 20, 2008.
She was 80."

- - - -

Other books from Charlie's list which ought
perhaps to be discussed in this web group are:

Joseph Kessel, The Road Back: A Report on
Alcoholics Anonymous (Knopf 1962)

Thomas Randall, The Twelfth Step, A Novel
(Scribner's 1957)

Roger Treat, The Endless Road (A. S. Barnes
1959)

Alcohol, Science and Society: Twenty-nine
Lectures with Discussions as given at the
Yale Summer School of Alcohol Studies
(Quarterly Journal of Studies on Alcohol,
1945)

James E. Royce, Alcohol Problems and
Alcoholism: A Comprehensive Survey (Free
Press 1981)

Elizabeth Burns [Gertrude Behanna], The
Late Liz: The Autobiography of an Ex-Pagan
(Appleton-Century-Crofts 1957, Meredith
Press 1968)

- - - -

Charlie Bishop spent many years assembling
a collection of 15,000 books, pamphlets,
and other printed materials published by
and about the A.A. movement, see Charlie
Bishop, Jr., and Bill Pittman, To Be
Continued: The Alcoholics Anonymous World
Bibliography 1935-1994 (Bishop of Books
1994).

This became the nucleus of the world famous
Chester H. Kirk Collection on Alcoholism and
Alcoholics Anonymous at Brown University:

http://www.aabibliography.com/chester_kirk_collection.htm

http://www.brownalumnimagazine.com/march/april_2000/archive_of_recovery.html

http://dl.lib.brown.edu/libweb/collections/kirk/

http://www.brown.edu/Facilities/University_Library/publications/Bibliofile/B
ibli\

o26/Chester.html [28]

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++++Message 5250. . . . . . . . . . . . Oldest AA meeting place
From: tompasek . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/4/2008 10:50:00 AM

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Does anyone know what location holds the
longevity record for holding AA meetings?

There is a place here in Bakersfield,
California, (106 Lincoln St) that has held
meetings since 1948.

Is that perhaps the current record?

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++++Message 5251. . . . . . . . . . . . Magistrates and Judges
From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/3/2008 9:49:00 PM

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Van was (later) the (Probate) Judge, the only
official in the Vermont local legal system
called "Judge" -- What I've seen shows Cebe as
Prosecuting Attorney (a State, not a local,
position) before he was State Senator (which
he was from 1933 to 1935, no?).

The putative date for the Ebby thing is 1934,
and I'd be surprised if Cebe were still
actively the State's Attorney in that year,
but it's possible.

I could be wrong that Van represented the
State in cases before his father (and that
may not be the best way to put it), but he
was licensed to appear in Family Court.

Ebby, of course, was never prosecuted, and
in fact, if this was, as Van pointed out, a
Family Court situation, there would be no
prosecution. If Ebby came up before the
Family Court Magistrate, it was because the
FCM has the authority to commit mental cases
to the State Hospital.

[You know that Cebe had gone down to NYC to
see Sam Shoemaker in the twelve months before
Ebby went down with Rowland, and I think Cebe
went either with Rowland or at Rowland's
urging. Certainly it was Rowland rather than
Shep who got Cebe involved with the OG.]

In any case, it looks as though the Magistrate
(Collins G) decided it was better to get Ebby
out of Vermont and into the Oxford Group than
to commit him to the State Hospital as a
mental case. So it wasn't that the charges
were nol prossed -- the Magistrate investigated
the case and there were no charges.

Hence the importance of Van's statement that
his father, in this context, wasn't a Judge.

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++++Message 5252. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Fifty Books and LeClair Bissell
From: James Flynn . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/3/2008 9:03:00 PM

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In response to Charlie Bishop, Jr.
<bishopbk@comcast.net> (bishopbk at comcast.net)
and his "Fifty Books Tracing AA's History"
at http://hindsfoot.org/fiftybk.html

- - - -

From Jim F:

I am sorry to hear about LeClair Bissell, I
took an ethics for addictions counselor course
from her at the University of the District of
Columbia many years ago. She was an interesting
and engaging character with a history that
included being the medical director of two of
the most well known and respected treatment
centers in the USA. I remember talking to her
about the possibility of doing an intervention
on my father who was retired trial lawyer.
She told me that attorneys are some of the
most difficult people to intervene on because
they are very skilled at verbal confrontation.
She told me that you have to "get a lawyer by
their license" (to practice law) and use that
as leverage. Unfortunately my father had
already retired.

Sincerely, Jim F.

- - - -

Message 5249 said:

Charlie's list of fifty great AA books includes:

LeClair Bissell and James E. Royce, Ethics
for Addiction Professionals (Hazelden 1987)

We have had almost nothing in the AAHistoryLovers
about LeClair, in spite of the fact that she
was a very important figure. Sally Brown can
maybe help us out, because she and David talk
about LeClair in the Marty Mann book. LeClair
died just a few weeks ago:

http://www.news-press.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080827/NEWS0116/80827
0408\

/1001/archives [27]

"Retired Sanibel physician LeClair Bissell,
an internationally known and much-published
expert on addiction, died August 20, 2008.
She was 80."

- - - -

From: "Sally Brown" <rev.sally@att.net>
(rev.sally at att.net)

I was so sorry to hear about LeClair's death.
I think I half-believed she was immortal.
It's a miracle she lived to age 80. Did you
know she suffered much of her life from some
kind of rare blood disorder for which she had
to take a large number of daily pills in order
to stay alive?

LeClair was of absolutely enormous help to Dave
and me with constant references, information,
and encouragement. Marty's story would never
have been written by us without her opening
one door after another.

One time I told LeClair she needed to write
her own story. Her contributions to the
alcoholism movement should be documented. But
she said she would leave that to others after
she died. I recall her saying once that she'd
designated Anne Geller MD as her executor,
and that her substantial archives would be
housed at a location I don't remember, but
Anne would know. I've emailed ASAM for how
to contact Anne. Actually, I don't know if
she's even alive - though she's younger than
LeClair.

Rev Sally Brown
Board Certified Chaplain
United Church of Christ

Coauthor with David R Brown:
A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann:
The First Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous
http://www.sallyanddavidbrown.com

1470 Sand Hill Rd, 309
Palo Alto, California 94304
Phone/Fax: 650 325 5258
Email: rev.sally@att.net
(rev.sally at att.net)

- - - -

From: Glenn C. <glennccc@sbcglobal.net>
(glennccc at sbcglobal.net)

When (quite a few years ago) Nancy Olson woke
up in an emergency room with a deep gash on
her forehead, she realized that she had to
stop drinking. She was dumped into a near
psychotic state once the alcohol left her
system, when all the painful thoughts she had
been avoiding suddenly came crashing in on her.

LeClair Bissell was the only psychiatrist
whom Nancy trusted enough to turn herself over
to. And LeClair, by her skill, did get Nancy
back to sanity (and sobriety).

Later on, in 2000, Nancy founded the AA
history group which is now known as the
AAHistoryLovers. So in fact this web group
would not have come into existence if it
had not been for LeClair's work. Even at the
end of her life, LeClair remained one of
the handful of people whom Nancy admired and
respected and loved and trusted more than
anyone else she had ever known.

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++++Message 5253. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Fifty Books Tracing AA''s
History
From: John Schram . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/3/2008 11:15:00 PM

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In response to Charlie Bishop, Jr.
<bishopbk@comcast.net> (bishopbk at comcast.net)
and his "Fifty Books Tracing AA's History"
at http://hindsfoot.org/fiftybk.html

- - - -

New to group and glad I found this site.
Great list to keep and add to my collection.
I would add four books I found interesting:

William Seabrook, "Asylum"

Henry Hough, "An Alcoholic to his Sons"

Jack London, "John Barleycorn"

Jim Bishop, "The Glass Crutch"

In addition to those four, something in the
style of "The Lost Weekend" but a little
heavier reading is Malcolm Lowry, "Under the
Volcano"

- - - -

Message 5249 said:
>
> Other books from Charlie's list which ought
> perhaps to be discussed in this web group are:
>
> Joseph Kessel, The Road Back: A Report on
> Alcoholics Anonymous (Knopf 1962)
>
> Thomas Randall, The Twelfth Step, A Novel
> (Scribner's 1957)
>
> Roger Treat, The Endless Road (A. S. Barnes
> 1959)
>
> Alcohol, Science and Society: Twenty-nine
> Lectures with Discussions as given at the
> Yale Summer School of Alcohol Studies
> (Quarterly Journal of Studies on Alcohol,
> 1945)
>
> James E. Royce, Alcohol Problems and
> Alcoholism: A Comprehensive Survey (Free
> Press 1981)
>
> Elizabeth Burns [Gertrude Behanna], The
> Late Liz: The Autobiography of an Ex-Pagan
> (Appleton-Century-Crofts 1957, Meredith
> Press 1968)

- - - -

From the moderator:

On Jim Bishop, "The Glass Crutch" (1945) see
Richard M. Dubiel, The Road to Fellowship:

http://hindsfoot.org/kDub1.html

Pages 50-54, 56, 156-158, 174, 176.

Dubiel skillfully uses "The Glass Crutch" to
show popular American attitudes toward both
alcoholism and psychiatry during that period.
And in particular, the central figure in
"The Glass Crutch" meets Richard R. Peabody,
author of "The Common Sense of Drinking,"
in a fictional encounter set in 1934.

Although it is fictional, Dubiel shows how
the description of Peabody's ideas gives us
valuable insights into how Americans at
that time thought about Peabody's approach
to treating alcoholism (an approach which,
we remember, had an important influence on
Bill Wilson).

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

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++++Message 5254. . . . . . . . . . . . LeClair Bissell memorial Oct. 11,
2008
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/4/2008 4:25:00 PM

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LeClair Bissell's memorial service has been
scheduled for October 11th, 2008 at 10:00 a.m.
in Miller Sanctuary:

Unitarian Universalist Church of Fort Myers
13411 Shire Lane, Fort Myers, Florida 33912
phone 239 / 561 / 2700
http://www.uucfm.org/

Contributions in her honor may be made payable
to UUCFM.

- - - -

One of LeClair's other great loves was
rescuing abused and abandoned chihuahuas:

http://www.chihuahua-rescue.com/

She was one of the founding members of
that group, Chihuahua Rescue and Transport.

(There is currently a marvelous picture on
that website of LeClair holding a chihuahua
named Olivia.)

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++++Message 5255. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Fifty Books Tracing AA''s
History
From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/5/2008 7:41:00 AM

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"Of the making of books there is no end" -
Ecclesiastes 12:12.

So, also:

Upton Sinclair, the Cup of Fury;

Thomas B Gilmore, Equivocal Spirits: alcoholism
and drinking in 20th century literature;

James Graham, The Secret History of Alcoholism;

James B Nelson, Thirst: God and the alcoholic
experience,

and so on and so on.

Apropos: "... in the good time coming, when
alcohol is eliminated from the needs and the
institutions of men, it will be the YMCA, and
similar unthinkably better and wiser and more
virile congregating places, that will receive
the men who now go to saloons to find
themselves and one another..." from

John Barleycorn: "Alcoholic Memoirs", by
Jack London, published in 1913 - 22 years
before AA.

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++++Message 5256. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Magistrates and Judges
From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/4/2008 4:46:00 PM

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At 20:49 10/3/2008, jlobdell54 wrote:

>Van was (later) the (Probate) Judge, the only
>official in the Vermont local legal system

>called "Judge" -- What I've seen shows Cebe as
>Prosecuting Attorney (a State, not a local,
>position) before he was State Senator (which
>he was from 1933 to 1935, no?).

I can confirm this part of Jared's post.

My maternal grandfather was a lawyer in
Newport, Vermont, the county seat of
Orleans County, one of the three counties
constituting Vermont's Northeast Kingdom.

He was the probate judge, whether for the
county or the town, I'm not sure. He died
when I was quite young but his friends
would refer to him as "your grandfather
the judge."

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

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++++Message 5257. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Oldest AA meeting place
From: gregory merkel . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/4/2008 6:12:00 PM

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My vote goes to the Minneapolis Alano Club,
better known as "2218" they been holding
meetings since 1941.

- - - -

"tompasek" <tp@...> wrote:
>
> Does anyone know what location holds the
> longevity record for holding AA meetings?
>
> There is a place here in Bakersfield,
> California, (106 Lincoln St) that has held
> meetings since 1948.
>
> Is that perhaps the current record?

- - - -

From: Bent Christensen
<bent_christensen5@yahoo.com>
(bent_christensen5 at yahoo.com)

I think this one is even older but I don't
know if it is the oldest?

Minneapolis
Alano Society of Minneapolis, Inc.
2218 First Avenue South
Minneapolis, Minnesota 55404-3401
telephone 612 / 871 / 2218

Established and incorporated March 28, 1942,
with first Beginner's Class started on the
first Wednesday of May, 1942, at their
current, continuously operating location.
36 A.A. meetings per week.

Kind regards
Bent Christensen
Valmuevej 17 6000 Kolding
Tlf. 23 84 54 26

http://www.pass-it-on.dk/

http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/StoreBog_studie/

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++++Message 5258. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Fifty Books Tracing AA''s
History
From: JOHN WIKELIUS . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/5/2008 6:24:00 PM

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My contribution is Ten Nights in a Barroom by
T. S. Arthur.

- - - -

From the moderator:

T. S. (Timothy Shay) Arthur (1809-1885)
is most famous for his temperance novel
"Ten Nights in a Bar-Room and What I Saw
There" (1854), which helped demonize alcohol
in the eyes of the American public.

In 1840 he wrote a series of newspaper
articles on the Washingtonian Temperance
Society. The articles were widely reprinted
and helped fuel the establishment of
Washingtonian groups across the country.
Arthur’s newspaper sketches were collected
in book form as "Six Nights with the
Washingtonians" (1842).

The greatest impact however came when William
W. Pratt turned Arthur's book into a play
called "Ten Nights in a Barroom" in 1858.
Joe Morgan, the village drunkard, is encouraged
in his boozing and other irresponsible ways
by Simon Slade, the evil owner of the
Sickle and Sheaf bar. Even the plea of his
little daughter, Mary (“Father, dear father,
come home”), cannot drag Morgan away for long.
In a barroom brawl Mary is accidentally struck
by a glass thrown at her father. The shock
helps Morgan reform, Slade is killed by his
own son, and the village votes to close the
saloon. This prohibitionist drama was never
popular in major cities, but was second only
to Uncle Tom's Cabin on rural circuits.

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++++Message 5259. . . . . . . . . . . . Remembering LeClair Bissell
From: Audrey Borden . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/7/2008 12:57:00 AM

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I was saddened to learn of LeClaire's
Bissell's passing last night when I read my
email, and thought of her fondly today
throughout the day. We never met in person,
but she spoke with me when I contacted her
by phone in my research for "The History of
Gay People in Alcoholics Anonymous." She
offerred me much useful advice, including
telling me about the wonderful book "Dual
Identities" by Dana Finnegan & Emily
McNally.

She generously agreed to share some of her
story with me, which appears in the book
under the initials "L.B." During the interview
we were interrupted several times by a fierce
chihuahua who, she told me, had recently
had surgery. It was such a charming part of
the interview that I left the interruptions
in the final piece. They seemed to reveal
her great heart, beneath an intimidating
intellect and no-nonsense manner. (She was
my very first interview and I wanted to
impress her. Boy, did she impress me!

Re: LeClaire's papers, she did mention that
day that the Archives of Women in Medicine
in Philadelphia has her papers, "easily
ninety percent of what I've written, should
anybody ever wish to find them and make me
immortal."

I will miss LeClaire. It was comforting to
know such a mighty force for good was abroad
in the world.

Audrey Borden

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++++Message 5260. . . . . . . . . . . . Signed "Yours in Christ" --- Bill
Wilson, 1/13/43
From: bigbookken . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/8/2008 6:21:00 PM

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Hello All ---

FYI:

I just purchased a First Edition, Third
printing Big Book inscribed on the front free
endpaper, "To my friend Dr. Jesse M. Bader,
Yours in Christ, Bill Wilson, 1/13/43."

Jesse Moren Bader (1886-1963)was a noted
evangelist, ecumenist and global leader. He
founded the global, ecumenical, World Communion
Sunday which was launched on October 6, 1940
and continues on the first Sunday in October
each year.

This is the first time I've ever seen Bill W.
inscribe anything "Yours in Christ" and it's
also notable that he signed his full name. He
apparently stopped signing his full last name
about the time the Traditions were coming out.

Sincerely,

Ken R.

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++++Message 5261. . . . . . . . . . . . Update on Niebuhr and the Serenity
Prayer
From: jblair101 . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/8/2008 3:52:00 PM

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The man behind the Serenity Prayer — or not
By Derek Tam
Staff Reporter
Yale Daily News
October 8, 2008

For a prayer that asks for serenity, the past three months have been
anything but serene.

"God, give us grace to accept with serenity the things that cannot be
changed, courage to change the things that should be changed, and the
wisdom to distinguish the one from the other," reads the well-known
supplication.

The Serenity Prayer — perhaps the most famous prayer to originate in
modern times — has long been ascribed to noted theologian Reinhold
Niebuhr '14 GRD '15. For over 60 years, the prayer has served as the
cornerstone of 12-step recovery programs like Alcoholics Anonymous.
Countless people have testified to its power to inspire and console.

But recent research by associate Yale Law School librarian Fred
Shapiro has cast Niebuhr's authorship into question.

When The New York Times published an article about Shapiro's findings
in July, it drew the ire of numerous critics, chief among them
Elisabeth Sifton, Niebuhr's daughter and the author of "The Serenity
Prayer: Faith and Politics in Times of Peace and War." Although
Shapiro stressed that he does not think Niebuhr would deliberately
plagiarized the prayer, articles by both Shapiro and Sifton in the
July-August issue of the Yale Alumni Magazine have only further
divided opinion within academic and theological circles.

An influential theologian

Niebuhr, who died in 1971, deeply influenced Christian thought in the
latter half of the 20th century. Although he was a prominent figure in
liberal politics, Niebuhr broke with the left on the issue of World
War II. Despite his German roots, Niebuhr called for action against
Hitler and Nazi Germany and later spoke out against communism.

Preaching in Detroit in the 1920s, Niebuhr advocated strongly for the
rights of automobile workers. Although he left Detroit in 1928 to
teach at the Union Theological Seminary in New York City, Niebuhr
remained highly involved in issues of social justice throughout his
career.

But the domestic strife and international turmoil of the 1930s
compelled the theologian to step up his criticism of the "benign
optimism" of mainstream Christian thought. Once World War II erupted
in 1939, Niebuhr soon became a proponent of action against Germany,
alienating many of his former peers in the process.

In the midst of the turmoil of the war, Niebuhr composed a short
prayer for a church service in Heath, Mass., where he preached during
the summer of 1943.

Over the past six decades, the prayer's popularity has grown
exponentially. The United Service Organizations had distributed the
prayer to hundreds of thousands of servicemen by the end of World War
II. After years of using the prayer, Alcoholics Anonymous finally
credited it to Niebuhr in 1950. By the time Hallmark first featured
the prayer in its graduation cards in 1962, it was well on its way
toward commercial ubiquity.

Prior to Shapiro's article over the summer, people had attributed the
prayer to sources as diverse as the ancient Greeks and obscure
18th-century theologian Friedrich Oetinger, yet no one had ever
seriously challenged Niebuhr's authorship.

The controversy

When Shapiro, the editor of "The Yale Book of Quotations," found
variants of the Serenity Prayer circulating in newspapers from
Massachusetts to Texas as early as 1936 — seven years before Niebuhr
wrote it down — the news landed on the front page of The New York Times.

"Sometimes [people] used it as if it was already well known; sometimes
they [didn't] even treat it as a prayer," Shapiro told the News. "But
people used it without referring to Niebuhr."

Shapiro said almost all of the early references he found were from
women, many of them teachers and social workers. He theorized the
Serenity Prayer originated in social and church groups staffed mainly
by women, in an oral process akin to the evolution of folklore.

The conflicting Alcoholics Anonymous accounts of the origin of the
prayer also offered little help.

"Originally, they said that one of their members found it in an
obituary in 1939 or 1940, or 1941, or 1942," Shapiro said. "Later,
when they heard that Niebuhr wrote it, they were very generous and
attributed it to him."

In addition, Shapiro said, Niebuhr's failure to publish the prayer
until 1951 casts doubt on authorship.

"It's mysterious," Shapiro said. "It almost seems that other people
attributed it to him, and he said, `Yes, I did write it,' but this was
some years after."

Sifton, senior vice president of publishing house Farrar, Straus &
Giroux, vehemently contested Shapiro's claims.

"I can start by [saying] that there isn't much controversy except that
stirred up by Mr. Shapiro," Sifton said. "It's ludicrous for me to
find myself in a position to defend [Niebuhr's] authorship."

She denounced Shapiro's research, which relies on Internet search
engines such as JSTOR and LexisNexis. As editor of "The Yale Book of
Quotations," Shapiro sifts through the databases to find the first
written record of famous quotes.

"I'm a working publisher. I work with writers and authors all the
time," Sifton said. "The issue of authorship is a great deal more
complex and intricate than that."

Sifton dismissed Shapiro's claim that the prayer originated in women's
social circles, even though she said she was not at all surprised that
the first citations found were from women, given her father's advocacy
for social justice. She said Niebuhr frequently attended YWCA
meetings, where he worked with women to address issues of social change.

Sifton said she saw the sentiments expressed in the prayer "reflected
in every day of [Niebuhr's] life." She argues that Shapiro's lack of
familiarity with the prayer's spiritual context makes his quest to
find the origins of the prayer suspect.

"Mr. Shapiro does not know anything about theology," Sifton said.
"[He] calls it not intellectually sophisticated. Well, it's very
sophisticated if you are acquainted with spiritual literature."

The wider debate

Several prominent academics and theologians across the country
interviewed by the News said that while the prayer was consistent with
Niebuhr's theology, the oral nature of a prayer makes it difficult to
ascertain authorship.

Niebuhr himself expressed some doubts about his authorship. Late in
life he told a magazine in 1950, "Of course, it may have been spooking
around for years, even centuries, but I don't think so. I honestly do
believe that I wrote it myself."

Sifton attributed the "resigned sadness" of that quotation to
Niebuhr's modesty and declining health at the time.

"He was suffering from deep depression after a stroke when he first
got a whole lot of mail about [his] authorship," Sifton said.

The Rev. Gary Dorrien, Reinhold Niebuhr professor of social ethics at
Union Theological Seminary, said even if Niebuhr unconsciously adapted
the prayer, the final product bore the theologian's unmistakable
signature.

"Niebuhr would not have asserted something that he knew was not true,"
Dorrien said. "Its emphasis on humility, on realistic limits — it
certainly sounds like Niebuhr to me."

Thomas Ogletree, Frederick Marquand professor of ethics and religious
studies at Yale Divinity School, said he was skeptical of Shapiro's
research, although he also acknowledged that similar prayers often
have arisen out of "the interactions and relationships of diverse
faith communities."

"I would not readily concede any suggestions that he deliberately
plagiarized this prayer, claiming credit for something that was not
his own," Ogletree wrote in an e-mail.

Shapiro emphasized his findings do not disprove Niebuhr's claim to the
Serenity Prayer but merely demonstrate the power of current research
tools and "cast doubt" on the theologian's authorship.

Whoever might be the author of the 33-word prayer, both Shapiro and
Sifton testified to its unique resonance.

"It's probably the most important prayer after the Lord's Prayer,"
Shapiro said. "I've received numerous messages from people that said
that the Serenity Prayer saved their lives, that it's absolutely
crucial to their lives."

Sifton said she appreciated Shapiro's gesture, but posed one final
question to the librarian.

"I'm glad that he thinks that it's important, but I'm puzzled, as were
many of the correspondents that wrote to me, by his eagerness to
establish that my father didn't write it," she said.

"Who does he think wrote it, then?"

Source: http://www.yaledailynews.com/articles/view/25621

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++++Message 5262. . . . . . . . . . . . Local and regional AA history sites
From: mrpetesplace . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/4/2008 10:41:00 PM

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I have a site where I put up a custom search
engine for AA History and Archive sites.

http://aastuff.com/

If you have a site with local or regional
AA history, please send a link at this email
address:

<peter@aastuff.com>
(peter at aastuff.com)

so I can get as many sites possible with
as much information to search.

If it is your district, area, or intergroup
site that is fine. I will be trying to avoid
commercial sites. (Sites will not be excluded
simply because they may have items for sale,
but at all times the primary search is for
information on history.)

Peter F.

<peter@aastuff.com>
(peter at aastuff.com)

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++++Message 5263. . . . . . . . . . . . Resentment article by clergyman
From: Laurence Holbrook . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/9/2008 6:24:00 PM

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The Big Book story "Freedom from Bondage"
contains the well-known "industrial strength"
resentment remover.

Starting at the bottom of page 551, Wynn L.
says, "During the day, a friend of mine brought
me some magazines to take to a hospital group
I was interested in. I looked through them.
A banner across one featured an article by a
prominent clergyman in which I caught the word
resentment."

The article said that "if you will ask in
prayer for everything you want for yourself
to be given to them, you will be free."

Any clues as to which magazine, the identity
of the clergyman, or the article itself?

Thanks,

Larry Holbrook

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++++Message 5264. . . . . . . . . . . . The 61 Rules, does a copy exist?
From: Laurence Holbrook . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/9/2008 6:45:00 PM

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In the 12&12, tradition four, it talks about
the Middleton Group that had BIG plans - it
mentions that they had 61 rules - when it all
fell apart, rule 62 evolved, "Don't take
yourself so seriously."

What were the original 61 rules?

Thanks,

Larry

- - - -

From the moderator: this has been asked
before, about a year ago, and nobody could
come up with any list of that sort. But I
think it is worthwhile asking it again, just
to make sure that nobody has that information
anywhere.

This was in Message 4560 (Sep 24, 2007):

> The 61 Rules, does a copy exist?
>
> I can see in the AA History Lovers Archive
> that the question has come up before, but
> without resolution.
>
> Does any have the text or a document or a
> PDF or a URL for the first 61 rules from the
> story in the 12&12 about "Rule #62"?
>
> [See Twelve Steps & Twelve Traditions pp.
> 147-149: Rule No. 62, "Don't take yourself
> too damn seriously."]

To tell you the truth, I kind of hope that
this list of 61 rules is never found, because
if it were discovered, I fear that we would
immediately get some faction in AA that
wanted to force everyone else to follow all
61 of them!

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

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++++Message 5265. . . . . . . . . . . . Moral psychology
From: james ryan . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/9/2008 7:22:00 PM

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Big Book (4th ed.), The Doctor's Opinion,
page xxvii -- "We doctors have realized for
a long time that some form of moral psychology
was of urgent importance to alcoholics ...."

And page xxxi -- Fitz Mayo, "Our Southern
Friend," who hid in the deserted barn. "His
alcoholic problem was so complex, and his
depression so great, that we felt his only
hope would be through what we then called
'moral psychology,' and we doubted if even
that would have any effect."

- - - -

Below is the Oxford English Dictionary's
entry for "moral psychology." The uses it
cites are interesting, especially the one
from J. S. Mill, but none of them are a
good match for Silkworth's usage in the
Dr's Opinion.

It's a shame that the OED skips from 1867 to
1972. They do not offer any usage contemporary
with the BB.

From the OED:

"moral psychology n. the psychology of
morality and human action, esp. as a subject
of philosophical study.

1859 J. MARTINEAU in National Rev. 9 504 Does
an author, who has so distinguished himself in
Logical psychology,..doubt that there is also
a *Moral psychology?

1867 J. S. MILL Exam. Hamilton's Philos.
(ed. 3) xxvi. 586 This vital truth in moral
psychology, that we can improve our character
if we will.

1972 J. RAWLS Theory of Justice §29. 181 The
parties must consider the general facts of
moral psychology."

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++++Message 5266. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Oldest AA meeting place
From: Ken Ring . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/10/2008 1:59:00 PM

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Continuous meetings have taken place on
a regular basis at the Alano Society of
Minneapolis, 2218 1st Avenue South,
Minneapolis, Minnesota since the week
following the first Beginner's Meeting, which
was held on May 17, 1942.

The first "squad" meeting including Pat Cronin,
Barry Collins, Ed Webster and others.

Prior to the purchase of the old John Washburn
Mansion, there were meetings held at several
locations, including the Citizen's Aid
Building where they continued to hold "open"
meetings due to space limitations for large
groups.

Originally referred to as the Minneapolis
Group, they incorporated on March 28, 1942
in order to purchase the property.

Ken R., Archivist/Historian
Alano Society of Minneapolis, Inc.

- - - -

"tompasek" <tp@...> wrote:
>
> Does anyone know what location holds the
> longevity record for holding AA meetings?
>
> There is a place here in Bakersfield,
> California, (106 Lincoln St) that has held
> meetings since 1948.
>
> Is that perhaps the current record?

- - - -

From: Bent Christensen
<bent_christensen5@yahoo.com>
(bent_christensen5 at yahoo.com)

I think this one is even older but I don't
know if it is the oldest?

Minneapolis
Alano Society of Minneapolis, Inc.
2218 First Avenue South
Minneapolis, Minnesota 55404-3401
telephone 612 / 871 / 2218

Established and incorporated March 28, 1942,
with first Beginner's Class started on the
first Wednesday of May, 1942, at their
current, continuously operating location.
36 A.A. meetings per week.

Kind regards
Bent Christensen
Valmuevej 17 6000 Kolding
Tlf. 23 84 54 26

http://www.pass-it-on.dk/

http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/StoreBog_studie/

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++++Message 5267. . . . . . . . . . . . Ignatia''s birth certificate
From: Fiona Dodd . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/26/2008 2:40:00 PM

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Ignatia's birth certificate confirms her
place of birth as Shanvalley as opposed to
Ballyheane. It also confirms the alternate
spelling of the Neary name and that her
father married in to the Neary/Nary family as
opposed to her mother marrying in to his.

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++++Message 5268. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Oldest AA meeting place
From: Sally Brown . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/10/2008 6:25:00 PM

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Hi, Faithful Folks - Sorry to be so slow in
contributing some info about AA's earlier
meetings. Here are a few things Dave and I
found out when we were researching the Marty
Mann bio:

a.. "The loss of the [Wilson's] Clinton
Street house [c June 1939] meant that the AA
meeting had to find a new home, too. Marty
and Grennie persuaded Anna Wylie, Blythewood's
owner, to allow a meeting at the sanitarium
[Greenwhich, CT, where Marty and Grennie were
both still patients]. This was probably the
third AA group, after Akron and New York City."
(p 121)

b.. By late 1939, there was a noon lunch
AA meeting in Greenwich's Bristol Hotel.
(p 125) This could have been a relocation
of the Blythewood meeting after Marty was
discharged.]

c.. The Cleveland meeting, a spin-off from
Akron, was founded in late fall 1939.

d.. That fall of 1939 saw the beginning of
AA's connection to High Watch (Kent, CT).
Presumably, an AA meeting was founded there
to accommodate the alcoholism treatment
program and the AA retreat center. High Watch
could confirm what happened. (pp 125-126)

e.. Also, in late 1939 or very early 1940,
Marty met a newly-sober Sylvia Kaufman in
Chicago. Sylvia founded AA in Chicago. I
assume that was around the same time. Chicago
AA archives should have the info. (p 129)

f.. Probably during 1940, Grennie (Grenville)
Curtis started the first (intentionally) men's
closed AA group (NYC). It disbanded because of
men being called to military duty in WWII.
(p 122)

g.. Sometime around 1943, Marty and her
partner, Priscilla, started the first Cherry
Grove meeting (Fire Is, NY). It mainly served
the large gay/lesbian population. (p 144)
Q: Isn't this history - and of all those early
AA meetings across the country - in the AA
archives?

Finally, apart from all that, Palo Alto, CA's,
first meeting was in 1941. It's still going
strong.

Shalom - Sally

Rev Sally Brown
Board Certified Chaplain
United Church of Christ

Coauthor with David R Brown:
A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann:
The First Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous
http://www.sallyanddavidbrown.com

1470 Sand Hill Rd, 309
Palo Alto, California 94304
Phone/Fax: 650 / 325 / 5258
Email: rev.sally@att.net
(rev.sally at att.net)

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++++Message 5269. . . . . . . . . . . . those coffee pots
From: shakey1aa . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/13/2008 1:16:00 AM

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I searched past posts with no results and was
wondering if anyone in AAHL knows the brand
and model of the coffeepots that Anne Smith
and Lois Wilson had on their tables? I know
that one is at Brown,but am unsure of the
other's location. Anne's appears in AACOA.

Shakey Mike Gwirtz

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++++Message 5270. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Is there something called the
Bill Wilson Yellow Papers?
From: Lauren Lukens . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/12/2008 7:41:00 PM

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The Akron Archives has two of the vitamin B
therapy pamphlets. You can check with Gail
the archivist there.

Laurie

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++++Message 5271. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Oldest AA meeting place
From: Stephen Gentile . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/10/2008 5:23:00 PM

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Church of the Redeemer
26 South Street Morristown New Jersey

November 1940 as per archived Redeemer Pamphlet
from the church.

Sunday night speaker meeting
2nd oldest meeting in New Jersey, oldest in
same location.

Kindest Regards, Steve G.

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++++Message 5272. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Resentment article by clergyman
From: Woodstock . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/11/2008 6:29:00 PM

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My memory says the clergyman was Norman Vincent
Peale and possibly the article came out of the
magazine "Guideposts."

Peace
Jim Sc.
Pensacola, FL

- - - -

From: "brewster bird" <mec569@yahoo.com>
(mec569 at yahoo.com)

Dear Group-

I believe the clergyman was none other than
Norman Vincent Peale - seminarians and other
theologians of the 1950s often commented
that "Peale was apalling, Paul was appealing" -
I researched this myself ten years ago and I
think the reference is in Peale's book "The
Power of Positive Thinking" and is somewhere
in the middle of the text - actually under
the chapter on resentments. Peale does refer
to AA in the book directly with minimal
attribution. The book is still in print I do
believe.

All Best in Recovery,
Brewster B.

- - - -

The original message was #5263 from
"Laurence Holbrook"
<email@LaurenceHolbrook.com>
(email at LaurenceHolbrook.com)

In the Big Book story "Freedom from Bondage,"
starting at the bottom of page 551, Wynn L.
says, "During the day, a friend of mine brought
me some magazines to take to a hospital group
I was interested in. I looked through them.
A banner across one featured an article by a
prominent clergyman in which I caught the word
resentment."

The article said that "if you will ask in
prayer for everything you want for yourself
to be given to them, you will be free."

Any clues as to which magazine, the identity
of the clergyman, or the article itself?

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++++Message 5273. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: The 61 Rules, does a copy exist?
From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/11/2008 4:11:00 AM

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Was there even a "Middleton" group? Was this
perhaps a fictitious group, like "John Doe",
to enable the writer to make a point?

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++++Message 5274. . . . . . . . . . . . Oldest Groups
From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/13/2008 2:04:00 PM

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Hi Sally

The research material I have reflects an earlier start for Cleveland who
should be considered AA's third group. On May 10, 1939 Clarence Snyder
announced to the Akron Group that Cleveland would meet separately at 2345
Stillman Rd, Cleveland Heights in Cleveland at the home of Albert (Abby)and
Grace Goldrick. In the Fall of 1939, Cleveland membership exploded due to
October 1939 Cleveland Plain Dealer editorials by Elrick B Davis. In
membership size, Cleveland dwarfed the other groups for quite some time
after that.

I have a date of April 26, 1939 when Bill and Lois were evicted from their
Clinton St home and I believe meetings were held at Bert Taylors tailor shop
loft for a time after that.

It's only speculation on my part, but Marty's meeting at Blythewood would
likely be the fourth or fifth in terms of primacy (although "AA Comes of
Age" states that in December 1939, Rockland State Hospital near Monsey, NY
became the first mental hospital to have an AA Group (started by Bob V). Dr
Russell E Blaisdell, Superintendent of the hospital, also allowed busloads
of patients to attend meeting in NY and NJ

The info below is transcribed from the first bulletin issued to known
groups/members by Ruth Hock on November 14, 1940. It's of interest because
it precedes the March 1941 Jack Alexander Saturday Evening Post article and
reflects the early groups that were considered well established and those
that were emerging.

Cheers
Arthur

--------

THE ALCOHOLIC FOUNDATION
NATIONAL HEADQUARTERS - ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS

BOX 658 CHURCH STREET ANNEX NEW YORK CITY
#1 A.A. Bulletin 11/14/40

We wish to thank our many friends and correspondents all over the country
for their cooperation in keeping the national headquarters informed of
developments in the various groups. It is through such a central exchange
that vital information and contact points can be brought to the attention of
those who seek the solution to alcoholism which means so much to us.

This bulletin is an effort to develop a mutual idea exchange sheet to
establish a closer feeling of friendship between A.A. groups from the east
coast to the west, and we hope it will prevent the secession from the A.A.
ranks of our San Francisco group who threatened to call themselves
"Dipsomaniacs Incognito" unless they heard from us more frequently. A
bulletin has been contemplated for some time but delayed due to lack of
sufficient personnel and office facilities. We now have at least the
equipment and hope to be able to make this bulletin a periodic spree (not
alcoholic).

This office has in the past year handled over 2000 inquiries answering each
by personal letter. In addition, correspondence is maintained with about 50
centers "bare A.A. work is 1n operation, varying from the solitary efforts
of single isolated A.A. members to groups of 150.

In view of the fact that in April 1939 there were only about 100 A.A.
members, and the fact that there is now a total of approximately 1400, your
efforts and ours have been exceptionally worthwhile. Continued A.A. activity
will moan a great deal not only to each of us as individuals, but also to
the many who are still unaware of the fact that there is an answer to the
alcoholic problem which is practicable on a large scale.

Our correspondence reaches not only the four corners of the U.S. but also
touches Alaska, Africa, England, France and Australia. Although nothing of
consequence has developed as yet in these distant places, nevertheless it is
indicative of the widespread interest in Alcoholics Anonymous, of the far
reaching results already obtained, and the possibilities for the future.
For the general information of all A.A. members, we list below those cities
where there are isolated A.A. members who have recovered either through the
book alone or through brief contact with established centers.

COHOES, N.Y.
BURLINGTON, VERMONT
BUFFALO, N. Y.
BENNINGTONI VERMONT
DENVER, COLORADO
NORFOLK, VIRGINIA
SHELBY, NOHTH CAROLINA
KANSAS CITY, MISOURI
GREENSBORO, NORTH CAROLINA
ST. LOUIS, MISOURI
AIKEN, SOUTH CAROLINA
KNOXVILLE, TENNESSEE
BELLINGHAM, WASHINGTON
EAU CLARE, WISCONSIN
BISMARCK, NORTH DAKOTA
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

There are several "working" A.A. members in each of the following cities
where meetings are in a get together stage.

PITTSBURGH, PA.
WALLINGFORD, VERMONT
BOSTON, MASS.
SAN DIEGO, CALIFORNIA
INDIANAPOLIS, IND.

And following is a list of communities where A.A. work is well established
and weekly meetings are held:

NEW YORK CITY. N.Y
EVANSVILLE, INDIANA
SOUTH ORANGE, N. J.
LITTLLE ROCK, .ARKANSAS
WASHINGTON, D.C.
PHILADELPHIA, PA.
RICHMOND, VA.
BALTIMORE, MD.
DETHOIT, MICHIGAN
WAUNAKEE, WISCONSIN
JACKSON, MICHIGAN
GREENWHICH, CONN.
COLDWATER, MICHIGAN
CLEVELAND, OHIO
CHICAGO, ILLINOIS
AKRON, OHIO
HOUSTON, TEXAS
TOLEDO, OHIO
LOS ANGELES, CALIF.
DAYTON, OHIO
SAN FRANCISCO, CALIF.
YOUNGSTOWN, OHIO

The secretary or correspondent of each group has the name and address of at
least one member in each of the established groups for the use of travelling
or visiting ~members. However, at the request of many of those groups may we
ask that the New York office be used as a clearing house for all
correspondence since but a few local groups are equipped to handle the
correspondence now coming to them from so many different directions. We
shall gladly give full particulars about any of the listed communities upon
request.

We all know that the A.A. solution really works if followed with patience,
honesty and sincerity so we sympathize with the new prospect who said he
certainly DID want to stop drinking but after listening a few minutes to our
A.A. story said "Oh that! - I tried it for two weeks and it doesn't work".

We shall appreciate receiving ideas, suggestions, criticisms, etc. of
general interest for the purpose of this bulletin is to relate the many A.A.
groups in a friendly spirit.
So best regards to all and let us hear from you at any and all times.

[Signed Ruth Hock]
Secretary

P.S.
Since it is not possible at the present time for us to furnish enough copies
for distribution to every A.A. member, perhaps you will find it advisable to
read this copy aloud at a meeting.
----------

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Sally Brown
Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 5:26 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Oldest AA meeting place

Hi, Faithful Folks - Sorry to be so slow in
contributing some info about AA's earlier
meetings. Here are a few things Dave and I
found out when we were researching the Marty
Mann bio:

a.. "The loss of the [Wilson's] Clinton
Street house [c June 1939] meant that the AA
meeting had to find a new home, too. Marty
and Grennie persuaded Anna Wylie, Blythewood's
owner, to allow a meeting at the sanitarium
[Greenwhich, CT, where Marty and Grennie were
both still patients]. This was probably the
third AA group, after Akron and New York City."
(p 121)

b.. By late 1939, there was a noon lunch
AA meeting in Greenwich's Bristol Hotel.
(p 125) This could have been a relocation
of the Blythewood meeting after Marty was
discharged.]

c.. The Cleveland meeting, a spin-off from
Akron, was founded in late fall 1939.

d.. That fall of 1939 saw the beginning of
AA's connection to High Watch (Kent, CT).
Presumably, an AA meeting was founded there
to accommodate the alcoholism treatment
program and the AA retreat center. High Watch
could confirm what happened. (pp 125-126)

e.. Also, in late 1939 or very early 1940,
Marty met a newly-sober Sylvia Kaufman in
Chicago. Sylvia founded AA in Chicago. I
assume that was around the same time. Chicago
AA archives should have the info. (p 129)

f.. Probably during 1940, Grennie (Grenville)
Curtis started the first (intentionally) men's
closed AA group (NYC). It disbanded because of
men being called to military duty in WWII.
(p 122)

g.. Sometime around 1943, Marty and her
partner, Priscilla, started the first Cherry
Grove meeting (Fire Is, NY). It mainly served
the large gay/lesbian population. (p 144)
Q: Isn't this history - and of all those early
AA meetings across the country - in the AA
archives?

Finally, apart from all that, Palo Alto, CA's,
first meeting was in 1941. It's still going
strong.

Shalom - Sally

Rev Sally Brown
Board Certified Chaplain
United Church of Christ

Coauthor with David R Brown:
A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann:
The First Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous
http://www.sallyanddavidbrown.com

1470 Sand Hill Rd, 309
Palo Alto, California 94304
Phone/Fax: 650 / 325 / 5258
Email: rev.sally@att.net
(rev.sally at att.net)

------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

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++++Message 5275. . . . . . . . . . . . Why was "ACE FULL -- SEVEN --
ELEVEN." story omitted ?
From: bigbookken . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/13/2008 2:42:00 PM

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Hello Everyone, and thanks for being here !

Please see photo from the Original Working
Manuscript:

http://www.aaholygrail.com/1.html

Does anyone know who "Del Tryon" (or "Del
Tryor") is and why he thought the publishing
of the Big Book was a "racket" and "withdrew"
it ?

If you have any information, do you also
have a source I can refer to ?

Many thanks,

Ken R.

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++++Message 5276. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Oldest AA meeting place
From: and . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/13/2008 4:10:00 PM

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Here is a picture:

http://www.russianaa-brooklyn.com/images/rsgallery/original/L_066.jpg

Message 5274: "AA Comes of Age" states that
in December 1939, Rockland State Hospital near
Monsey, NY became the first mental hospital
to have an AA Group (started by Bob V). Dr
Russell E Blaisdell, Superintendent of the
hospital, also allowed busloads of patients
to attend meeting in NY and NJ.

Message 2439: Rockland State Hospital in
Rockland County was near Orangeburg, New York.

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++++Message 5277. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Oldest AA meeting place
From: lester112985 . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/14/2008 10:59:00 PM

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Hello Group,

Just a quick note to expand on Steve's reply.
The oldest group in New Jersey is the South
Orange Group which first met on October 22,
1939 at the Field House in South Orange. This
is also the second meeting to be called
Alcoholics Anonymous following Clarence S and
the Cleveland Group.

Love and Service
Lester Gother

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,
Stephen Gentile <sagentile@...> wrote:
>
> Church of the Redeemer
> 26 South Street Morristown New Jersey
>
> November 1940 as per archived Redeemer Pamphlet
> from the church.
>
> Sunday night speaker meeting
> 2nd oldest meeting in New Jersey, oldest in
> same location.
>
> Kindest Regards, Steve G.
>

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++++Message 5278. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Oldest AA meeting place
From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/13/2008 5:17:00 PM

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Am I reading this correctly - "c.. The
Cleveland meeting, a spin-off from Akron,
was founded in late fall 1939." ??????

May 1939, after the Big Book was published was
the start of the Golrick Group (later called
the Cleveland Group) which met at the home
of Albert R. Golrick. (2345 Stillman Road,
Cleveland Hgts). The meeting was called an AA
meeting.

Akron members prior to May 1939 were attending
the Oxford Group and during the Summer of 1939,
Dr. Bob and others were listed on the group
roster for the Golrick/Cleveland Group. It
wasn't until the Fall of 1939 that the Akron
members broke off officially from the Oxford
Group and not the other way around.

How can Cleveland be a spin-off from Akron
when Akron didn't meet as AA until late Fall
of 1939? Was this a typo or just another
continuation of AA Myth and Folklore?

Also, how about the meetings held at Rockland
State Hospital started very early (December
1939) with the help of Dr. Blaisdell (Rockland
Superintendant), Bob Valentine (of Monsey NY)
and Bill Wilson? Bill and Lois lived for a while
in Monsey in Bob Valentine's unheated barn
during one of their homeless episodes. Patients
were bussed to meetings in NYC and South Orange,
New Jersey (meetings started in South Orange
in October 1939)

- - - -

On Fri, 10/10/08, Sally Brown
<rev.sally@att.net> wrote:

> The Cleveland meeting, a spin-off from
> Akron, was founded in late fall 1939.

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++++Message 5279. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: those coffee pots
From: Chris Budnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/13/2008 11:48:00 PM

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The coffee pot at Brown University is a
"Wear-Ever Aluminum Coffee Percolator."

I think the number on the bottom of the pot
reads "N2 5068."

Chris

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++++Message 5280. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Oldest AA meeting place
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/15/2008 12:45:00 PM

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From: "Art Boudreault" <artb@netwiz.net>
(artb at netwiz.net)

Dear AA History Lovers,

Seeing Sally's post reminded me to go to the
chapter in "Journey to Recovery, a Fifty Year
History of Al-Anon in Northern California" that
refers to the earliest AA groups in our area.
The Oakland AA Group formed in April 1941,
followed by several more groups. By September
groups had formed in San Francisco, Sacramento,
San Jose and Palo Alto. In the Oakland Group's
"annual report" they describe electing Pauline G,
a non-alcoholic, as their secretary.

The first big book delivered in Northern
California was sent to Mrs. Kellogg (think
corn flakes) who lived on 17 mile drive in
Monterey and who purchased it for her husband.
From an early history of San Jose Groups, I
recently learned that Mr. Kellogg was one of
the early members of the San Jose group.

Sincerely,
Art Boudreault

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++++Message 5281. . . . . . . . . . . . Envelopes in the BB
From: Mike H . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/16/2008 2:40:00 PM

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I heard that there were some BB's in the early
years that were shipped out with envelopes
attached inside. These envelopes were for
buyers of the BB to 'buy' one for a friend in
need. Any input on this? When, where, which
edition ... ??? Thanks, Mike

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++++Message 5282. . . . . . . . . . . . Chanting at meetings
From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/16/2008 7:05:00 PM

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Over the last several years the chanting of
the last phrases of How It Works at meetings
in this area has become common.

I was first aware of it about five years ago.
I was told at the time it started in treatment
centers and was encouraged by their staff to
demonstrate that the patients were awake and
paying attention.

Is this practice common in other areas? What
is its origin? I have attended meetings in
several areas of the United States and Canada
and have only heard it here.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge, Louisiana

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++++Message 5283. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Why was "ACE FULL -- SEVEN --
ELEVEN." story omitted ?
From: Laurence Holbrook . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/15/2008 1:40:00 PM

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Message #5275 from Ken R.
<bigbookken@yahoo.com>
(bigbookken at yahoo.com)

refers us to the working manuscript of
the Big Book at:

http://www.aaholygrail.com/1.html

which gives a photo of "Personal Stories"
page 62, the beginning of the story entitled
"ACE FULL -- SEVEN -- ELEVEN."

This sheet of paper has an X across the page,
and a handwritten note at the top which says:

"Del Tryon's story -
Thought the book was racket
and so with drew this.
w.a.w."

- - - -

http://silkworth.net/dickb/thefirstforty.html

Richard K., in an attempt to work out which
of the early AA members stayed sober, and
which went back to drinking, gives what he
believed was the person's full first name
and the person's last name (spelled
differently from the handwritten note on
the early draft of the Big Book), but
without giving the source of this informa-
tion:

"N/A Delmar Tyron Akron Success Ace-Full Seven Eleven
(NO- Success)"

- - - -

The Orange Papers site has a PDF of a document
signed by Dr. Bob's daughter, Sue Smith Windows
(February 15, 1918 - February 9, 2002), on
January 7, 1999 (when she was eighty years old)
that gives one version of why his story wasn't
included:

http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-Sue_Smith.pdf

"One of the authors of a personal story that
appeared in the original manuscript (ACE FULL...
SEVEN ELEVEN) from Akron asked that his story
be removed from the book prior to publication
after finding out about Bill's personal
financial aspirations from the sale of the
book. It was revealed that Bill and Ruth Hock
already publicly distributed the multilith
manuscript and sold it for $3.50."

- - - -

Larry H

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++++Message 5284. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Oldest AA meeting place
From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/15/2008 2:40:00 PM

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Oxford Group or no - Akron always has, and
always will be, recognized as AA's first
group. New York was AA's second group.

Akron marks its beginning as occurring on
Independence Day, July 4, 1939 when Bill
Dotson was discharged from the City Hospital
of Akron. In a July 1949 memorial Grapevine
article, for Anne Smith, Bill W wrote that
Anne was “quite literally, the mother of our
first group, Akron Number One” and “In the
full sense of the word she was one of the
founders of AA.”

Both the New York and Akron Groups were
affiliated with the Oxford Group during their
early years. The New York Group separated
from the OG in August 1937.

On May 10, 1939 led by pioneer member Clarence
Snyder the Cleveland, Ohio members announced
to the Akron Group that they would meet
separately from Akron and the Oxford Group
at 2345 Stillman Rd, Cleveland Heights in
Cleveland at the home of Albert (Abby) and
Grace Goldrick. This was AA’s third group.
Clarence S claims that it was the first group
to call itself Alcoholics Anonymous (however,
the term was used a number of times in
correspondence by Bill W almost a year prior
to the founding of the Cleveland group).

In late October 1939 (AA Comes of Age viii
says summer) Akron members of the “alcoholic
squad” withdrew from the Oxford Group and
held meetings at Dr Bob’s house. It was
reputedly a painful separation due to the
great affection the alcoholic members had
toward T Henry and Clarace Williams. The
founding of the Cleveland Group and this
action by the Akron Group ended all outside
affiliation between the AA Fellowship and
the OG or anyone else.

- - - -

MORE ON NEW JERSEY AND BROOKLYN:

AA Comes of Age (pg 11) states that in the
Summer of 1939, Bill W and Hank P attended
the first AA meeting in New Jersey, at Hank's
home in Upper Montclair, New Jersey.

Also Bill W was using the term "Alcoholics
Anonymous" to describe meetings being held at
his home in Brooklyn as early as the spring
of 1938.

- - - -

WE of Alcoholics Anonymous:

The Foreword to the First Edition of the book
"Alcoholics Anonymous" published in April 1939,
begins with the sentence "WE OF Alcoholics
Anonymous, are more than one hundred men and
women who have recovered from a seemingly
hopeless state of mind and body."

The term "Alcoholics Anonymous" was used in the
Big Book to describe the name of the entire
Fellowship. This business of which group was
the first, second or whatever to use the term
"Alcoholics Anonymous" to describe itself as
a group, is contemporary semantic fantasy
posing as AA history.

Cheers
Arthur

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++++Message 5285. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Oldest AA meeting place and
Marty Mann
From: John Barton . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/16/2008 5:42:00 PM

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Question for Sally Brown:

Marty Mann's discharge date and the hotel
meeting which she says was held in Greenwich,
Connecticut, in late 1939.

- - - -

The Cleveland Meeting was on May 11, 1939 and
was the 3rd AA group.

[?? From the moderator: Arthur Sheehan in
Message 5284 gives the date as May 10, 1939 ??]

In June of 39 there was indeed a single meeting
held at Blythewood.

My info has Marty Mann attending the meetings
in Montclair (May and early June) and in South
Orange (June and July) after that.

Sally, do you have Marty's discharge date?

There is no info available that I know of a
meeting in a hotel in Connecticut in 1939.

Thanks John B

- - - -

Message 5268 from Sally Brown
<rev.sally@att.net> says:

Hi, Faithful Folks - Sorry to be so slow in
contributing some info about AA's earlier
meetings. Here are a few things Dave and I
found out when we were researching the Marty
Mann bio:

a.. "The loss of the [Wilson's] Clinton
Street house [c June 1939] meant that the AA
meeting had to find a new home, too. Marty
and Grennie persuaded Anna Wylie, Blythewood's
owner, to allow a meeting at the sanitarium
[Greenwhich, CT, where Marty and Grennie were
both still patients]. This was probably the
third AA group, after Akron and New York City."
(p 121)

b.. By late 1939, there was a noon lunch
AA meeting in Greenwich's Bristol Hotel.
(p 125) This could have been a relocation
of the Blythewood meeting after Marty was
discharged.]

c.. The Cleveland meeting, a spin-off from
Akron, was founded in late fall 1939.

d.. That fall of 1939 saw the beginning of
AA's connection to High Watch (Kent, CT).
Presumably, an AA meeting was founded there
to accommodate the alcoholism treatment
program and the AA retreat center. High Watch
could confirm what happened. (pp 125-126)

e.. Also, in late 1939 or very early 1940,
Marty met a newly-sober Sylvia Kaufman in
Chicago. Sylvia founded AA in Chicago. I
assume that was around the same time. Chicago
AA archives should have the info. (p 129)

f.. Probably during 1940, Grennie (Grenville)
Curtis started the first (intentionally) men's
closed AA group (NYC). It disbanded because of
men being called to military duty in WWII.
(p 122)

g.. Sometime around 1943, Marty and her
partner, Priscilla, started the first Cherry
Grove meeting (Fire Is, NY). It mainly served
the large gay/lesbian population. (p 144)
Q: Isn't this history - and of all those early
AA meetings across the country - in the AA
archives?

Finally, apart from all that, Palo Alto, CA's,
first meeting was in 1941. It's still going
strong.

Shalom - Sally

Rev Sally Brown
Board Certified Chaplain
United Church of Christ

Coauthor with David R Brown:
A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann:
The First Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous
http://www.sallyand davidbrown. com

1470 Sand Hill Rd, 309
Palo Alto, California 94304
Phone/Fax: 650 / 325 / 5258
Email: rev.sally@att. net
(rev.sally at att.net)

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++++Message 5286. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Oldest AA meeting place: New
Jersey
From: John Barton . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/16/2008 5:57:00 PM

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Hi All,

Thanks Lester,

This was actually known as the New Jersey Group
and first met on May 14, 1939 at Hank P's house
in Montclair. When Hank and Kathleen broke up
in June (over the Ruth Hock affair) this
meeting was moved to the Hartford Road South
Orange home of Herb D.

Herb was a slipper who had been around since
1935 (see Pass it On p.162).

The meetings continued on Hartford Road until
October when Herb and Gordon M. ( see Pass It
On p.247) secured the space at the South Orange
Community Center as you correctly point out.
This group operated under the name of AA of
New Jersey Incorporated for several years.
As the group broke up into many smaller groups
(it was the mother group of New Jersey) it
changed its name to the South Orange Group and
disolved its incorporation (1944 or 45 I think).

This is according to my research AA group #4,
after Brooklyn, Akron and Cleveland. A meeting
at a particular spot of the "regulars" such
as Blythewood, does not constitute a new group.
My research also shows that the Oct 22, 1939
meeting in South Orange was the first AA

meeting in a public place. Steinway Hall in
Manhattan came a few months after.

Best Regards,

John B

Big Book Study Group of South Orange
Area 44 History & Archives Committee

--- On Wed, 10/15/08, lester112985 <lgother@optonline.net> wrote:

From: lester112985 <lgother@optonline.net>
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Oldest AA meeting place
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, October 15, 2008, 2:59 AM

Hello Group,

Just a quick note to expand on Steve's reply.
The oldest group in New Jersey is the South
Orange Group which first met on October 22,
1939 at the Field House in South Orange. This
is also the second meeting to be called
Alcoholics Anonymous following Clarence S and
the Cleveland Group.

Love and Service
Lester Gother

--- In AAHistoryLovers@ yahoogroups. com,
Stephen Gentile <sagentile@. ..> wrote:
>
> Church of the Redeemer
> 26 South Street Morristown New Jersey
>
> November 1940 as per archived Redeemer Pamphlet
> from the church.
>
> Sunday night speaker meeting
> 2nd oldest meeting in New Jersey, oldest in
> same location.
>
> Kindest Regards, Steve G.
>

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++++Message 5287. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Oldest AA meeting place: Chicago
and High Watch
From: rick tompkins . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/16/2008 12:33:00 AM

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Does anyone know what location holds the
longevity record for holding AA meetings?

- - - -

CHICAGO AREA:

Some of the recent posts seemed to have strayed
from this first question with fascinating
details on the "first" AA meetings.

For me, the most fascinating are the reports
on specific sites of longtime-meeting AA groups.

From a recent report here, one AA Group in
the city of McHenry, Illinois, claims 61 years
but wasn't connected to AA as a whole until
1949.

Here's an explanation: the Chicago Group, from
1939 until 1952, kept its own records of
registered groups and only reported totals
(membership and the number of its groups) for
the semi-annual A.A. Directories that our
"headquarters" Alcoholic Foundation printed.
The McHenry group was part of a cluster of
the Fox Valley Groups that were initially
aligned with Chicago A.A., so the 61 years
claim would be valid in the light of close
correspondence with the Chicago Central Office.

Still, the Fox Valley Groups separately
registered its groups in three towns with
NYC's "headquarters" 62 years ago in early
1946 with the cities of Aurora, Elgin, and
Crystal Lake (Crystal Lake is McHenry's
neighboring town). Obviously "AA as a whole"
extended farther than Chicago groups when
they realized they should register with the
Alcoholic Foundation in NYC.

- - - -

HIGH WATCH FARM:

It appears to me, from Sally's 10/13 post,
that the fall of 1939 saw High Watch Farm in
Connecticut starting its first AA meetings
on-site, and High Watch Farm remains in
operation today. A question for the AA Archives
at GSO would be exactly when the meeting site
was registered. This site could be AA's
"location that holds the longevity record for
holding AA meetings."

Rick, Illinois

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++++Message 5288. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Oldest AA meeting place: Boston
From: JNP in Maine . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/15/2008 4:36:00 PM

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Any record of early meetings in Boston,
Massachusetts?

- - - -

From the moderator:

See Richard M. Dubiel, The Road to Fellowship:
The Role of the Emmanuel Movement and the
Jacoby Club in the Development of Alcoholics
Anonymous:

http://hindsfoot.org/kDub1.html

http://hindsfoot.org/kDub2.html

which is listed in Bishop's list of
the top fifty books on AA history:

http://hindsfoot.org/fiftybk.html

- - - -

(p. xii) <<The Jacoby Club served to
nurture the Boston A.A. during the chapter’s
first years.>>

(p. 86) <<“1,400 Rescued From Drink by Jacoby
Club”; its subheadline read: “Isn’t This Some
Record, Right Here in Boston? Brotherly Love a
Winner.” The lead continued the tone, with a
reference to Billy Sunday. “How’s this Rev.
William Ashley Sunday? Here’s the Jacoby Club,
right here in Boston, which has rescued 1,400
men from the grip of John Barleycorn in seven
years! There’s hitting the trail in earnest --
1,400 trail hitters and all like Billy Sunday,
fighting the ‘booze’ curse with the bitterness
that comes with the experience of the
‘down-and-outer’” (Boston American, Sunday,
n.d., Nov. 1916).>>

(pp. 109-110) <<During 1940 and 1941, several
events changed the course of both the Jacoby
Club and Alcoholics Anonymous. Jack Alexander’s
Saturday Evening Post article in March 1941
helped spur the growth of A.A. nationwide
as well as in the Boston area. The Jacoby Club,
on the other hand, underwent a profound
reorganization. By July 16, 1942, a swift
succession of events resulted in the resigna-
tion of its acting executive secretary and
the essential end of alcoholism treatment by
the Jacoby Club.>>

(p. 114) <<this was the exact period (March
through June of 1941) when Hatlestad was
actively recruiting alcoholics in the Boston
area into what was in fact starting to become
A.A. By March of 1941, Burt C. and Paddy were
conducting an A.A. meeting on Wednesday nights
at the Jacoby Club’s 115 Newbury Street address
with Hatlestad’s eager backing, and until early
1942, the Boston A.A. group and the Jacoby Club
were to some degree intertwined with one
another and attempting to work together
cooperatively.>>

(p. 119) <<A month before Cobb recommended he
be dismissed, Lawrence Hatlestad submitted a
report to the Club covering May 1, 1941–May 1,
1942. Unlike his earlier report to Cobb,
Hatlestad here reveals an approach to treating
alcoholics that has startling similarities to
those adopted by Alcoholics Anonymous. (It
should be remembered that the newly formed
Boston A.A. group began holding its first
meetings at the Jacoby Club in March of
1941.)>>

(pp. 119-120) <<Hatlestad notes that the first
year of reorganization was largely involved
with the establishment of A.A. in Boston. This
was facilitated, he claimed, largely through
his own work with Ruth Hock, the A.A. secretary
in New York. Hatlestad apparently first wrote
to Hock in 1940 with “favorable remarks
regarding the book ‘Alcoholics Anonymous.’”
Hock responded with a description of the A.A.
organization, adding that “only within the last
month … a beginning has been made in Boston.”
She mentions that a Mr. Joseph Lyons had
visited the New York office and was now
attempting to organize a group in Boston.
The hope was that Hatlestad would get in
touch with him. As will be discussed later,
the Jacoby Club essentially nurtured A.A. in
Boston at the beginning, with the group
locating in the Jacoby Club itself. In June
1941, the two groups agreed that they ought
to be separate organizations. Nonetheless,
twelve members of the group remained in the
Jacoby Club, which then continued its program
of treatment.>>

(p. 124) <<A glut of articles in 1940 cele-
brated the new-found sobriety of Rollie
Hemsley, the Cleveland Indians baseball
player who became well known as famed pitcher
Bob Feller’s favorite catcher.>>
<<Inquiries as to the whereabouts of A.A.
activity were directed to the New York office,
the visible center of A.A. activity. When
inquiries were made by people who lived in
Boston, the A.A. office in New York at first
directed them, not surprisingly, to the Jacoby
Club. As pointed out earlier, Lawrence
Hatlestad had made the acquaintance of Ruth
Hock, the A.A. secretary in New York, by
mid-1940. Whatever one may say of Mr. Hatlestad,
he had clearly established himself as a central
actor in “alcoholic work” in Boston. So with
the New York headquarters of Alcoholics
Anonymous sending Boston-area alcoholics to
the Jacoby Club for help, the initial effect
of the publicity over the new A.A. movement
was to strengthen the Jacoby Club, not diminish
its influence and public regard.>>

(pp. 125-126) <<In addition to Hatlestad’s
contacts with the New York group, Paddy
Keegan, one of the two founders of A.A. in
Boston, decided to link his newly formed
Boston A.A. group to the Jacoby Club’s
already sucessful program for helping
alcoholics in that city. According to the
history of early A.A. in Boston written later
on by the Boston A.A. Central Service
Committee (CSC), Paddy ventured to New York
and met Marty Mann, one of the first women in
the program, who apparently helped Paddy get
sober in the summer of 1940. “By October Paddy
was back in his home town of Boston,” knowing
about A.A. but without a meeting to attend.
The CSC history states that “somehow Paddy
found out about a place called the Jacoby Club.”
He met Hatlestad and worked with him “from
October until the first of November, when
another alcoholic named Burt C. came to the
Jacoby Club looking for help. Doctor Hatlestad
put Paddy and Burt together, and they started
to help each other.” Of course, if Paddy asked
anyone in the New York A.A. office about a place
to go in Boston alcohol treatment, Hatlestad’s
name would have come up. Given its ambiance,
self-help orientation, and nondenominational
orientation, it was the clear choice over a
hospital or mission house. Paddy was unable to
stay sober for long periods of time, but he did
manage to pass on the message of A.A. Whatever
his success or lack of it on the personal level,
Paddy and Burt C. held the first Boston meeting
of Alcoholics Anonymous on Wednesday, November
13, 1940, “both men being sober.” It is not
known how many people attended the first
meeting, nor if they were sober. Burt C.
remained sober “from the first meeting until
he died.” Such was not Paddy’s fate. He
apparently slipped repeatedly and “finally
died of alcoholism.” According to the Boston
group’s history and at least one letter from
Ruth Hock, Paddy was a pleasant fellow when
sober and did much to carry the A.A. message
to New England. When inquiries came to Boston
concerning the whereabouts of A.A. following
the Jack Alexander article of March 1, 1941,
it was Hatlestad, Burt C., and Paddy Keegan
who made the contacts. Paddy’s picture currently
graces the Central Service Committee office in
Boston.>>

(p. 126) <<The first A.A. meetings were held
irregularly, but by March of 1941, Burt C. and
Paddy had settled on Wednesday nights at the
Jacoby Club’s 115 Newbury Street address for
the official weekly group meeting. The Boston
group’s history adds that there were then
about four or five alcoholics in the group.
The history of A.A. and its relationship to
the Jacoby Club becomes a bit cloudy at this
point. The Jacoby Club archival material
supports two basic facts: A.A. and the Jacoby
Club were intertwined for a period and then
separated. The Boston A.A. group met at the
Jacoby Club facilities and was melded with
the Club, according to Ernest Jacoby, “for
quite a while.” But he adds, “Gradually,
however, Alcoholics became independent and I
think there was some jealousy on Hatlestad’s
part.”>>

(p. 127) <<The clear split at the financial
level occurred when the Jacoby Club wrote a
letter to Alcoholics Anonymous on May 31, 1941,
informing the group that it “regretfully
recommends that the management of each group
be entirely separate and distinct from that
of the other.” The letter cited two basic
differences. First, the Jacoby Club was a
charitable institution, “receiving money from
and making appeals to the public.” A.A., being
self-supporting, did not (a self-imposed rule
which would later become A.A.’s Seventh
Tradition). Second, the Jacoby Club employed
“a salaried man who is not an alcoholic”
(Hatlestad), whereas A.A. was operated without
paid professionals (the rule which was later
formalized in A.A.’s Eighth Tradition). It is
interesting to note that already as early as
1941, A.A. members were assuming the absolute
necessity of certain organizational principles
which would later be formalized in the Twelve
Traditions in 1945-6. Although the Jacoby Club
letter made it clear that they no longer wanted
the A.A. people telling them how to manage
their business, nonetheless it was cordial in
tone, including an offer to continue allowing
A.A. the use of Jacoby Club rooms. The letter
ended with a note of thanks to A.A. “for the
opportunity [the Jacoby Club] has been given to
contribute its small share to their work.”
According to the Boston A.A. Central Service
Committee, A.A. moved to larger quarters at
123 Newbury Street in June of 1941. The nature
of the relationship between A.A. and the Club
at this point is not entirely clear. Although
a basic organizational and financial split is
documented in the May 31 letter, the CSC
history states that A.A. was “still centered at
the Jacoby Club. They were not strong enough to
be on their own yet.” Supporting this, the
May 31 letter did refer to the willingness of
the Club to allow A.A. to continue to use its
rooms.>>

(pp. 127-128) <<Since the Hatlestad resignation
was not received until July 16, 1942, it is
reasonable to assume that some ties between
the two groups remained during this 1941–1942
period. This situation lasted until A.A.
relocated at 306 Newbury Street in 1942. At
this point they had found a home and were
unquestionably independent. An A.A. group
remained at this Newbury Street address for
over twenty years. But between 1942 and
September 1945, additional groups were also
formed, so that A.A. quickly grew to have
thirteen meetings in all, scattered over
various parts of the immediate Boston area.
Richmond Walker, author of Twenty-Four Hours a
Day, an early Boston A.A. member about whom we
shall speak more later, proposed the establish-
ment of a Boston Central Committee to better
coordinate the activities of these thirteen
meetings in a letter to the group on 25 October
1945.>>

(pp. 128-129) <<Looking at the geography
involved provides one good way of visualizing
the continually changing relationships between
the organizations during this period. Emmanuel
Episcopal Church is located in the heart of
downtown Boston at 15 Newbury Street, right
where the street ends at the green lawns and
colorful flower beds of the Boston Public Garden
with its lake and swan boats, with (immediately
to the east of that) Boston Common, the grassy
knoll where the early colonists used to pasture
their milk cows. In March 1941, the little
Boston A.A. group had started meeting every
Wednesday night at the Jacoby Club’s place at
115 Newbury Street, which was only two city
blocks west of the church where the Emmanuel
Movement had begun. Everything was still
contained within the same tight little geo-
graphical area. At the psychological level,
Emmanuel Church, the Jacoby Club, and the A.A.
group were part of the same small local
neighborhood. A.A.’s first move, in June 1941,
was only to 123 Newbury Street, on the same
street and at the same end of the block as the
Jacoby Club meeting place. They were still
practically next-door neighbors, and could wave
hello to one another as they entered their
separate doors. But in 1942, A.A. moved four
blocks west, to 306 Newbury Street, symbol-
izing a much greater psychological distancing
of themselves from the Jacoby Club. From that
point on, as additional A.A. groups were
rapidly formed in other parts of the city, the
original close linkage between Boston A.A. and
the Jacoby Club was quickly lost. There were
similarities to the process by which Akron,
Cleveland, and New York A.A. had gradually
broken their originally tight associations with
the Oxford Group, a process which had also taken
place in stages.>>

(pp. 129-130) <<The publication of Jack
Alexander’s famous March 1, 1941, Saturday
Evening Post article was a pivotal event in
the Jacoby Club-A.A. relationship.>>
<<According to the CSC history, the New York
office received 63 requests for information on
A.A. in the Boston area by April 1941. These
were all answered by either the secretary Ruth
Hock or Bill Wilson himself. The names were
then forwarded to Hatlestad, and he, Paddy,
and Burt C. began making the contacts.
Apparently the letters sent back from New
York to these Bostonians included Hatlestad’s
name and address, because many of these 63
people then wrote letters to him asking for
help or information.>>

(pp. 132-135) BOSTON'S INFLUENCE ON A.A.
IN THE REST OF THE COUNTRY: RICHMOND WALKER'S
BOOK "TWENTY-FOUR HOURS A DAY"

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++++Message 5289. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: those coffee pots
From: Chris Budnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/15/2008 5:49:00 PM

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I magnified the image after receiving an
email from George about the number. Magnified,
it reads "No 5063" on the bottom of the
coffee pot.

Chris

- - - -

Original message 5279 from Chris Budnick
<cbudnick@nc.rr.com> (cbudnick at nc.rr.com)

> The coffee pot at Brown University is a
> "Wear-Ever Aluminum Coffee Percolator."
> I think the number on the bottom of the pot
> reads "N2 5068."

- - - -

From: "jfk92452000" <jfk92452000@yahoo.com>
(jfk92452000 at yahoo.com)

That is funny. When I saw this post I went
home to check the pot I use for camping. I got
it years ago from my boss's mothers house when
she passed away. I have seen the pictures of
Dr. Bob's pot and thought it looked similar.
I went home a couple of days ago and mine is
an Ever Wear Aluminum, Patent 1927. I love it
for camping because of its wide base and it
makes great Starbucks in the woods. I have
been using it for 15 years as a Scout Leader
and it helps me remember First Things First!
I am so grateful to AA as my service to our
youth would never have been possible otherwise.

- - - -

From the moderator:

According to Google, the famous brand of
aluminum coffee pot from that period of
history, which is now a collector's
item, is "Wear Ever," not "Ever Wear."

Just a minor note, but important if you're
trying to look it up on the internet or
find one in a historical museum of everyday
life.

Glenn C.

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++++Message 5290. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Chanting at meetings
From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/19/2008 3:10:00 AM

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Message 5282 from Tom Hickcox
<cometkazie1@cox.net>
(cometkazie1 at cox.net)

> Over the last several years the chanting of
< the last phrases of How It Works at meetings
> in this area has become common.
>
> Is this practice common in other areas? What
> is its origin? I have attended meetings in
> several areas of the United States and Canada
> and have only heard it here.
>
> Tommy H in Baton Rouge, Louisiana

- - - -

Sadly this virus has contaminated meeting in
the UK too (and no doubt elsewhere); but since
this site is about elucidation rather than
condemnation, it would be good, as Tommy asks,
to have some information about how and why it
(chanting) started. Surely it didn't happen
in meetings in Akron and New York in the
early days?

Laurie A.

- - - -

From: Shakey1aa@aol.com (Shakey1aa at aol.com)

No chanting in Philadelphia, Eastern
Pennsylvania meetings. When reading the
promises "We think not" is spoken by all.

Shakey Mike Gwirtz
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

- - - -

From: bsdds@comcast.net (bsdds at comcast.net)

We did it in West Texas at a particular club
where "C. God could and would if He were
sought." The A. and B. portions are not
repeated, however. Altho I had never heard
that anywhere else and it is not done in the
meetings I attend here in Virginia, I
personally, like it, but I had never heard
the origin.

- - - -

From: "Bahh" <jongunnar@kbsu.tv>
(jongunnar at kbsu.tv)

I have seen this in some meetings in:

Iceland
England
Minnesota
Fargo North Dakota
Las Vegas
New Orleans

Different versions of it but some crowd parti-
cipation at all of them.

JG
New Orleans

- - - -

From: "Murray Eaton" <meaton1287@rogers.com>
(meaton1287 at rogers.com)

Chanting has become a disgusting practice here
in the Toronto area too. It has come into AA
from the NA circle. The same as the holding of
hands at the end of our saying the Lord's
Prayer here and some people doing some idiotic
recitical of a "It works if you work it and
you're worth it...blah blah blah....." and
they won't let go of your hand as they sway
back and forth. It's become a cloying ritual-
istic fetish filled type of AA that you begin
to understand why newcomers don't want to
come back to. After 30 years, I'm glad I don't
have to try and get sober again.

- - - -

From: "stevec012000"
<steven.calderbank@verizon.net>
(steven.calderbank at verizon.net)

I got sober in the shadow of Father Martin's
Ashley in Maryland. Chanting was not the only
thing they were doing in 1989. They used to
shout back replies to How it Works:

"What's the Point?" the crowd would say
They would yell out the ABC's before the reader
would read each one.

This stopped there, but I still see it done
in other places.

- - - -

From: denezmcd@aol.com (denezmcd at aol.com)

It's common in SouthEast Texas

Dennis McD

- - - -

From: "CloydG" <cloydg449@sbcglobal.net>
(cloydg449 at sbcglobal.net)

It happens here in Bakersfield, California, too!

Clyde G.

- - - -

From: "Chuck Parkhurst" <ineedpage63@cox.net>
(ineedpage63 at cox.net)

The last line of the "A, B, C's," "God could
and would, if he were sought," is commonly
"chanted" at almost every AA meetings in the
Phoenix area.

In Service with Gratitude,

Chuck Parkhurst

- - - -

From: "Bill Futral" <bfutral@gmail.com>
(bfutral at gmail.com)

My understanding of this after 20 plus years
is that it started in NA and has now moved to
AA. You are right in that it comes I believe
from treatment centers. I have found it
upsetting to me as it appears to be from
another 12 step program. I even said in my
home group when reading How It Works that I
didn't need any help with the last sentence.
Since then I have become a little more
tolerant. Would love input from others about
this as well.

regards,

Bill

- - - -

From: "Hugh M" <humbc@shaw.ca>
(humbc at shaw.ca)

It is not a practice in the south-eastern part
of British Columbia. I have been to meetings
across Canada and have never heard it. I might
expect it in California where people are
thanked for their "share", often with clapping.

Hugh (a lurker in the West Kootenays of BC)

- - - -

From: "Elisabeth" <dunnelisabeth@comcast.net>
(dunnelisabeth at comcast.net)

Here is Seattle/Auburn area is it getting
increasingly more common, but more so the
"We think not" part when we read the
promises. I know that it irks some of the
oldtimers here.

- - - -

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++++Message 5291. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Why was "ACE FULL -- SEVEN --
ELEVEN." story omitted ?
From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/18/2008 6:21:00 PM

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The $3.50 for the manuscript included the
promise of a copy of the Big Book when it
was published, I believe.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

- - - -

Laurence Holbrook wrote about the document
signed by Dr. Bob's daughter which is given
in the Orange Papers, which says:
>
>"One of the authors of a personal story that
>appeared in the original manuscript (ACE FULL...
>SEVEN ELEVEN) from Akron asked that his story
>be removed from the book prior to publication
>after finding out about Bill's personal
>financial aspirations from the sale of the
>book. It was revealed that Bill and Ruth Hock
>already publicly distributed the multilith
>manuscript and sold it for $3.50."
>
> http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-Sue_Smith.pdf

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++++Message 5292. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Oldest AA meeting place: New
Jersey
From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/18/2008 5:51:00 PM

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Barefoot Bill and I met with someone who was
at either the first or one of the first South
Orange meetings. He was there as a child when
his mother was checking out AA for his father
who was a drunk at that time. This guy's
father went on to become a Trustee and drew up
the incorporation papers of the Grapevine and
brought his son to meetings at the original
clubhouse with Bill and Lois; and he and his
family went quite often to Monsey, New York,
to spend time with Bob V. who helped start
the Rockland Hospital Group and with whom Bill
and Lois lived in their barn. Lots of
interesting history.

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++++Message 5293. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Oldest AA meeting place: Akron
From: Russ Stewart . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/18/2008 7:26:00 PM

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typo Arthur?

Wasn't Bill Dotson released in 1935?

- - - -

Message 5284 from "Arthur S"
<ArtSheehan@msn.com>
(ArtSheehan at msn.com)

Akron marks its beginning as occurring on
Independence Day, July 4, 1939 when Bill
Dotson was discharged from the City Hospital
of Akron. In a July 1949 memorial Grapevine
article, for Anne Smith, Bill W wrote that
Anne was “quite literally, the mother of our
first group, Akron Number One” and “In the
full sense of the word she was one of the
founders of AA.”

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++++Message 5294. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Oldest AA meeting place:
Cleveland
From: John Barton . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/18/2008 11:14:00 PM

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They announced the new meeting to the Akron
group on May 10 saying that tomorrow night
(May 11) we meet as Alcoholics Anonymous in
Cleveland.

Regards

- - - -

Message 5285 from John Barton <jax760@yahoo.com>
(jax760 at yahoo.com) said:

The Cleveland Meeting was on May 11, 1939 and
was the 3rd AA group.

[?? From the moderator: Arthur Sheehan
in Message 5284 gives the date as May
10, 1939 ??]

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++++Message 5295. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Oldest AA meeting place: Akron
and Cleveland
From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/18/2008 11:53:00 PM

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Hi - one typo and a slight correction

- - - -

This sentence should have read:

Akron marks its beginning as occurring on
Independence Day, July 4, 1935 when Bill
Dotson was discharged from the City Hospital
of Akron.

- - - -

May 10, 1939 was given by me as the date of
the announcement by Clarence S of Cleveland's
separation from Akron and the Oxford Group.

"Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers" gives the
impression that the announcement occurred
earlier than this but doesn't give a specific
date.

Mitchell K's "How It Worked" gives May 10, 1939
as the date of the announcement by Clarence S
(to the Akron folks) and May 11, 1939 as the
date of Cleveland's first meeting.

I would presume Mitchell's work to be authori-
tative on the matter. "Dr Bob and the Good
Oldtimers" also gives May 11, 1939 as the
date of Cleveland's first meeting.

Arthur

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++++Message 5296. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Oldest AA meeting place: Marty
Mann, C;leveland
From: Sally Brown . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/19/2008 12:43:00 AM

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Hi, John - Marty's discharge date was Sept
1939. We don't know the exact date because
Blythewood's records no longer exist, as far
as we could determine, and Marty didn't
specify beyond "15 months after admission
(end of June 1938)." Her discharge was
probably early in Sept, however, since other
documented adventures of hers followed during
the month.

The identification of Blythewood Sanitarium as
the probable site of AA's third meeting came
from Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age (bottom
of p 18). The date could have been anywhere
between April 11, 1939, when Marty went to her
first AA meeting, and early September, when
she was discharged. I didn't know that there
was only one meeting held there, but I'm not
surprised. Do you know Art's source? AA
Archives?

We don't know anything about the establishment
of the first Cleveland meeting since we didn't
follow a lot of these interesting details in
our research. My impression at the time, though,
was that while the Cleveland folks had
certainly been energetically reaching out to
their own community during the spring of 1939,
a meeting didn't actually coalesce until the
summer of 1939, the date given by Bill Wilson
in AA Comes of Age (top of p 20).

Sorry not to be of more help. Happy hunting!

Shalom - Sally

- - - -

Hi, Mitchell - My apologies for being slow
in replying. By now you will have seen my
response to John. I hope it clarifies at least
somewhat my slangy, rather superficial
description of the relationship between the
founding of Cleveland AA and Akron. Serves
me right for spouting off about details I'm
not an expert on.

Shalom - Sally

- - - -

Rev Sally Brown
Board Certified Chaplain
United Church of Christ

Coauthor with David R Brown:
A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann:
The First Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous
http://www.sallyanddavidbrown.com

1470 Sand Hill Rd, 309
Palo Alto, California 94304
Phone/Fax: 650 / 325 / 5258
Email: rev.sally@att.net
(rev.sally at att.net)

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++++Message 5297. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: those coffee pots
From: mike . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/20/2008 9:58:00 PM

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2 photos of the coffee pots in Dr. Bobs house
- I posted them on our group website:

http://www.theprimarypurposegroup.com/coffeepots.htm

mike

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++++Message 5298. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill W. and Time magazine
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/22/2008 11:34:00 AM

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From: "kodom2545" <kodom2545@yahoo.com>
(kodom2545 at yahoo.com)

I heard on a tape that Bill Wilson was
nominated for Time Man of the Year, and also
that he was nominated for a Nobel Prize.
The speaker said that he turned down both.
Is there any historical record for this or
is it just a legend?

God Bless,
Kyle

- - - -

From the moderator:

AAHistoryLovers message 1739 from Nancy Olson
says that on April 30, 1960 Bill Wilson
refused to be on the cover of Time Magazine.

Susan Cheever, My Name Is Bill, says on
p. 191 that:

"By the time he wrote to Mark Whalon about
turning down the Yale degree, Bill understood
the principle of anonymity in a new way.
Later he declined to be on the cover of Time
magazine, even, as the editors suggested,
with his back to the camera. He also turned
down at least six other honorary degrees and
a number of overtures from the Nobel Prize
Committee."

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

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++++Message 5299. . . . . . . . . . . . Sample of Herb D''s handwriting?
From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/19/2008 5:19:00 PM

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Does anyone in area 44, northern New Jersey,
or elsewhere, have any handwriting by Herb D?

Can you send me a sample?

Shakey Mike Gwirtz
<Shakey1aa@aol.com>
(Shakey1aa at aol.com)

- - - -

Message 5286 from John Barton
<jax760@yahoo.com> (jax760 at yahoo.com)

Re: Oldest AA meeting place: New Jersey

... the New Jersey Group ...
first met on May 14, 1939 at Hank P's house
in Montclair. When Hank and Kathleen broke up
in June (over the Ruth Hock affair) this
meeting was moved to the Hartford Road South
Orange home of Herb D.

Herb was a slipper who had been around since
1935 (see Pass it On p.162).

The meetings continued on Hartford Road until
October when Herb and Gordon M. ( see Pass It
On p.247) secured the space at the South Orange
Community Center as you correctly point out.
This group operated under the name of AA of
New Jersey Incorporated for several years.
As the group broke up into many smaller groups
(it was the mother group of New Jersey) it
changed its name to the South Orange Group and
disolved its incorporation (1944 or 45 I think).

This is according to my research AA group #4,
after Brooklyn, Akron and Cleveland.

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++++Message 5300. . . . . . . . . . . . How early AA meetings were held in
Akron and Cleveland
From: mdingle76 . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/20/2008 7:55:00 PM

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After Tom P. Jr. wrote Gresham's Law and
Alcoholics Anonymous (3 ways to practice the
12 Step Program) he wrote Uses and Abuses of
Anonymity (3 ways to be anonymous). The
beginning of the article starts out with an
interview with Bob Evans (AA #11) whose
sponsor was Dr. Bob and who was a member of
the King School AA group. I wanted to share
the interview part of the article with the
group because it relates to both the recent
topics of chanting in AA meetings and more
importantly about the oldest of AA meetings:

Shortly before his death in 1984, Bob E.
shared with some members of the Upstate Group
of All Addicts Anonymous, the following
recollection of what AA was like when he first
joined:

<http://www.alladdictsanonymous.org/articles_anonymous.htm>

I never led meetings (neither did Dr. Bob) or
talked into a microphone. Nobody led our
meetings in the very early days. We all just
sat around in a circle. After the opening
prayer and a short text from the Bible, we had
quiet time, silently praying for guidance
about what to say. Then each person in turn
said something, asking for any help he wanted,
bringing up anything that was troubling him or
just whatever was on his mind. After everyone
was through, there were announcements and we
held hands and said the Lord's Prayer. There
was no clapping. At that kind of a meeting,
clapping would have seen out of place.

There was no levity either. We all had our
sense of humor, but for us recovery was a
life-and-death matter. We were all businessmen,
but we had reached our bottom and wanted to
restore ourselves to our previous place in
business and society.

For the first five years we met in someone's
home every night. It was serious business,
and we hung on to each other for dear life.
We could not afford any failures and so we
grew very slowly at first. But we proved that
an alcoholic on this program can help another
alcoholic as no one else can.

Many AA meetings are very different now, but
in the beginning it was absolutely necessary
for us to be strict and serious. That is the
way Dr. Bob was, gruff and tough. He always
put the program on a take-it-or-leave-it basis.
Dr. Bob and his wife Annie were both wonderful
people. (Annie died in 1949. Bob died in 1950
of cancer. He knew for years that he had it.)
He was a great student of the Bible, which he
read every night till the wee hours. In that
first group, Dr. Bob selected the readings and
made all the appointments and all the major
decisions. (I was the first secretary of the
group and the following year became chairman.)
Everyone had to make a complete surrender to
join in the first place, and so we had no
reservations; we worked the whole program,
100 percent.

Great emphasis was laid on the daily plan of
checking ourselves on the Four Absolutes:
absolute honesty, absolute purity, absolute
unselfishness, and absolute love. The Twelve
Steps came from the Absolutes. (The Four
Absolutes are very popular to this day in
Akron AA. They are mentioned more often than
the steps.)

We did not tell our drinking histories at
the meetings back then. We did not need to.
A man's sponsor and Dr. Bob knew the details.
Frankly, we did not think it was anybody
else's business. We were anonymous and so was
our life. Besides, we already knew how to
drink. What we wanted to learn was how to get
sober and stay sober.

Bill Wilson was in favor of having at least
fifty percent of an AA member's talk at a
meeting consist of "qualifying" or telling the
story of how he became an alcoholic. Bill
himself had a warm, friendly disposition, and
this idea of his did attract people and enable
the movement to grow to a size where it had
helped thousands of people all over the world.
For that we must be grateful.

But when the "qualifying" business first
began, it took some getting used to on our
part. I remember one time when we were
meeting at King School; some people came in
from Cleveland, and most of the qualifying
they did was really very bad. They clapped and
made a lot of noise. To us it seemed strange
and offensive. Gradually we opened up under
Bill's persuasive influence. But we still did
not care for it when people would get carried
away by their own voice and make their stories
too sensational and repulsive.

When Alcoholics Anonymous, the AA Big Book,
was printed, we had no money to get the books
out of the warehouse in New York. Jack
Alexander's article in the Saturday Evening
Post (March 1941) got the Big Book into
circulation in a hurry, and that was when
the term Alcoholics Anonymous became the
accepted name for the movement. Up till
then we had simply been called "a Christian
fellowship."

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++++Message 5301. . . . . . . . . . . . Early AA in the greater
Akron/Cleveland area
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/22/2008 12:48:00 PM

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Sgt. Bill Swegan, On the Military Firing Line
in the Alcoholism Treatment Program

http://hindsfoot.org/kBS1.html

Bill was born in Niles, Ohio, and made his
first attempt to get sober in AA in nearby
Warren, Ohio in 1946. Niles and Warren are
only 48 miles from Akron and 60 miles from
Cleveland, so we are talking about the same
part of northeastern Ohio. But the first AA
group in Warren was not a very good one.

(We're talking about back in 1946, not now.)

The authoritarianism, the lack of sympathy
and tolerance, and the Bible pounding back in
1946 were a symptom in this case of a small
group of alcoholics who were not working the
steps, who were miserable and unhappy people,
and who were only staying sober themselves by
the skins of their teeth.

Early AA was just like modern AA. Some AA
meetings were a whole lot better and more
effective than others, even in the same part
of the country.

(Bill finally got permanently sober on July 5,
1948 in New York, on Long Island, where he
experienced some very good AA, and died with
60 years of sobriety.)

(p. 145)

I went to my first A.A. meeting on January 19,
1946. This group met in Warren, Ohio, only
four miles from my home. There were still
not very many A.A. meetings around, even in
my part of the country, and the next closest
one was in Youngstown, Ohio, ten miles away in
the opposite direction. The people at this
A.A. meeting talked about the severity of
their drinking and their long history of
alcohol consumption. I was at least twenty
years younger than the next youngest member.
... as I looked around the room, I kept on
telling myself that I could not possibly be
an alcoholic, because my experiences were so
different from theirs: I was part of a different
world, I did not believe that I had drunk the
way they did, and above all I was only
twenty-seven years old. I guess I felt as
though there was some magic number, like
forty-five or fifty, where no one could
conceivably be an alcoholic until the person
was at least that old.

(p. 146)

Some of the people at that A.A. meeting talked
about having been skid row bums, and having
begged or stolen to get alcohol, and other
behavioral traits like that. Again I said
to myself inside my own mind, that I had never
done any of these things, so I must not be
“one of them.”

(p. 147-8)

The “God talk” at that A.A. meeting in January
1946 also really turned me off. I would start
thinking of the strident, hysterical tones of
the radio evangelists my parents had made me
listen to as a child, and the excessive
moralisms and demands for blind faith in what
seemed to be total nonsense, and what seemed
to me to be the mindlessness of that kind of
hyper-religious cant, and this was the only
way I could think of to interpret what these
A.A. people were saying. And I knew I did not
want that, and would never be able to stomach
anything like that. One of the things the
little A.A. group in Warren failed to teach
newcomers was the marvelous spirit of tolerance
in A.A., and the way in which the members are
allowed to work out their own understanding of
spiritual issues and real eternal values and
the things which give real meaning to life.

I should also say however, that hating God and
being totally hostile to any kind of spiritual
concepts at all, is one of the standard
symptoms of untreated alcoholism in my
understanding of the disease, along with
rebelliousness, broken relationships with
family and neighbors, antisocial behavior of
various sorts, being excluded from all decent
society and turned into an outcast, failure to
achieve even basic job and educational require-
ments, and so on. These things all have to
be dealt with in order to heal someone’s life
in the A.A. program.

But I myself have now been sober, and a
continuously active A.A. member, for almost
fifty-five years at this point, and I have
never ever talked about the spiritual aspects
of the program to other people in any kind of
preachy religious language. It is not
necessary to sound like a radio or television
evangelist. And I have not only stayed sober
myself, but have helped bring literally
thousands of people into the program by
talking about it my way, so that is the way
I will write about it in this book.

(pp. 149-150)

At any rate, I had gone to my first A.A.
meeting on January 19, 1946. Wib, my first
A.A. sponsor, was a persistent person who
knew my wife and her whole family. He was
desperately trying to save our marriage. I
went to meetings with him for the next three
months.

There were both open meetings (which any
person could attend) and closed meetings
(for alcoholics only). Most of the meetings
were speaker meetings, with a leader and
two or three speakers.

The disease concept of alcoholism had not
truly percolated into that part of small town
Ohio, so the common mode of therapy was simply
to deliver “drunk-o-logues,” where those with
more time in the program went into long, lurid
detail about all the troubles they had gotten
into with their drinking, and encouraged the
newcomers to start speaking up and doing the
same. Members thought of themselves as drunks,
sots, dipsomaniacs (a word I have not heard
now in many years), or simply as no good
down-and-outers, dwelling morbidly on all the
guilt and shame which they felt. Alcoholics
have to face the bitter reality of what they
were actually doing to themselves with their
drinking, and the shambles this made of their
lives, but if you go no further than that,
very little real healing can occur.

There was not much in the way of real therapy
in the little Warren A.A. meeting. Newcomers
who came in seeking help had it dished out on
a contemptuous, rather arrogant take-it-or-
leave-it basis. There was also the prevalent
feeling that you were a clandestine member of
some ultrasecret society, holding little covert
meetings while you looked over your shoulder
continuously for fear that someone might find
out what you were doing. That also is not
conducive in the long run to real mental
health.

(pp. 150-151)

Frankly, that was not a one hundred percent
healthy group of people in the little A.A.

group in Warren, Ohio, in 1946. But there
were also some good and positive things going
on. To begin with, they got the starting
point right: they were not drinking.

(p. 151)

But the basic problem I was encountering in
that context, was that I could not come up
with any idea, from listening to the members
of the little Warren group, about how A.A.
could actually work. It was a two-step group.
They dealt with the first step (powerlessness
over alcohol) in their continual drunk-o-logues,
and they tried to practice the twelfth step
(carrying the message to others), but the
other ten steps in the twelve-step program
got almost no mention at all. There was very
little said for example on the fourth step,
that is, identifying and then learning to
deal with our crippling resentments and fears,
which I badly needed at that time, or on the
steps used to heal our sense of guilt, which
was almost totally overwhelming me at that time,
even if I had great difficulty consciously
admitting it.

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++++Message 5302. . . . . . . . . . . . Joe & Charlotte T. in Warrenton,
Virginia
From: charlie brooke . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/20/2008 8:15:00 PM

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Does anyone have any information concerning
Joe and Charlotte Trundle who started meetings
in Warrenton, Virginia?

It has been written that Charlotte was a
secretary to Bill and Joe was on the Grapevine
staff.

Any information will be greatly appreciated
as they founded the Clover Group here in
Warrenton.

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++++Message 5303. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W. and Time magazine
From: grault . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/22/2008 12:26:00 PM

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The story of how Bill W. declined the offer
to be on the front cover of Time magazine is
also recounted in "Pass It On," on page 314.

Gerry

>
> From: "kodom2545" <kodom2545@...>
> (kodom2545 at yahoo.com)
>
> I heard on a tape that Bill Wilson was
> nominated for Time Man of the Year, and also
> that he was nominated for a Nobel Prize.
> The speaker said that he turned down both.
> Is there any historical record for this or
> is it just a legend?
>
> God Bless,
> Kyle
>
> - - - -
>
> From the moderator:
>
> AAHistoryLovers message 1739 from Nancy Olson
> says that on April 30, 1960 Bill Wilson
> refused to be on the cover of Time Magazine.
>
> Susan Cheever, My Name Is Bill, says on
> p. 191 that:
>
> "By the time he wrote to Mark Whalon about
> turning down the Yale degree, Bill understood
> the principle of anonymity in a new way.
> Later he declined to be on the cover of Time
> magazine, even, as the editors suggested,
> with his back to the camera. He also turned
> down at least six other honorary degrees and
> a number of overtures from the Nobel Prize
> Committee."
>
> Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)
>
>

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++++Message 5304. . . . . . . . . . . . Coffee pots & the floor of Dr.
Bob''s kitchen
From: forrestdalejackson . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/21/2008 4:39:00 PM

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I was good to see Dr. Bob's house again. The
last time I was there they were tearing up the
floor in the kitchen to replace it. I asked
them if I could have some of the old linoleum
flooring (cause that's where the old drunks
puked) and they gave me some. Other visitors
to the house at the same time got some pieces.
I hoped they saved some for their archives
because my piece is in the Alabama Archives.

Dale

- - - -

> 2 photos of the coffee pots in Dr. Bobs house
> - I posted them on our group website:
>
> http://www.theprimarypurposegroup.com/coffeepots.htm
>
> mike
>

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++++Message 5305. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: those coffee pots
From: DONALD BENNITT . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/21/2008 11:30:00 PM

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The coffee pot on the stove is not a replica
of the one that is at Brown University....the
one on the stove is Wear-ever 3008. The
original was Wear-ever 5063.

As you know I was very close friends with
Sue, I have given several replicas to
interested, I still have several in my house
....there is one I donated to Akron Archives
in the Akron Intergroup office in plain sight.

Don

- - - -

On Mon, 10/20/08, mike
<mike@theprimarypurposegroup.com> wrote:

2 photos of the coffee pots in Dr. Bobs house
- I posted them on our group website:

http://www.theprimarypurposegroup.com/coffeepots.htm

mike

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++++Message 5306. . . . . . . . . . . . AA addresses for Google Earth search
From: jt092274 . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/19/2008 6:32:00 PM

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Does anyone have the kind of addresses which
could be used for looking at various AA
historical sites on Google Earth?

http://earth.google.com/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Earth

For Stepping Stones, the quarry in Vermont,
and any other significant addresses you might
know?

JT
<jt417552@aol.com>
(jt417552 at aol.com)

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++++Message 5307. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Why was "ACE FULL -- SEVEN --
ELEVEN" story omitted?
From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/20/2008 5:29:00 PM

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Didn't Bill D, AA#3, refuse to have his
story in the 1st Ed because he thought that
money was being made off the big book sales?

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++++Message 5308. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Why was "ACE FULL -- SEVEN --
ELEVEN" story omitted?
From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/20/2008 5:18:00 PM

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The Orange Papers is not quite the most
objective and impartial source for AA
information. Neither was Dr Bob's daughter
Sue.

The Orange Papers is an agenda-driven site
and things don't get on there unless they fit
the agenda.

Also, Sue W made no secret of her contempt
for Bill W. It was probably rather galling to
her that Bill's and Lois' heirs were receiving
royalties from the books Bill Wrote and she
wasn't. If you read her comments in "Children
of the Healer" about her daughter's suicide,
after murdering her granddaughter, they are
rather chilling, calculated and surreal.

The comment on the Big Book manuscript page
by Bill W, regarding Del T and his story,
says "Thought the book was a racket so
withdrew this."

By the way, Bill W assigned all author's
royalties from the Big Book to the Alcoholic
Foundation around September 1938. On April 22,
1940, Bill W and Hank P gave up their stock
in Works Publishing Co with a written
stipulation that Dr Bob and Anne would receive
10% royalties on the Big Book for life. Bill
did not start receiving royalties from Big
Book sales until after the US entered World
War II in December 1941.

Cheers
Arthur

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++++Message 5309. . . . . . . . . . . . Picking the Delegate at Area
Election Assemblies
From: maxtsuris . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/21/2008 11:24:00 AM

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A past Delegate from Area 7 asked me to post
this question. The delegate is always elected
first at the election assembly. Has there
ever been a time when the election of the
delegate came last, after all the other area
officers were elected? And does anybody know
why and when it was set up for the delegate
to be elected first? Thanks for any info.

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++++Message 5310. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W. and Time magazine
From: Ernest Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/22/2008 1:50:00 PM

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Could anyone please supplement Susan Cheever's
claims with source data for these claims:
the names of the institutions who inquired
about honorary degrees, and a more precise
description of the "overtures from the Nobel
Prize committee"?

ernie kurtz

- - - -

Message 5298 from Kyle <kodom2545@yahoo.com>
(kodom2545 at yahoo.com)
>
> I heard on a tape that Bill Wilson was
> nominated for Time Man of the Year, and also
> that he was nominated for a Nobel Prize.
> The speaker said that he turned down both.
> Is there any historical record for this or
> is it just a legend?
>
> God Bless,
> Kyle
>
> - - - -
>
> >From the moderator:
>
> AAHistoryLovers message 1739 from Nancy Olson
> says that on April 30, 1960 Bill Wilson
> refused to be on the cover of Time Magazine.
>
> Susan Cheever, My Name Is Bill, says on
> p. 191 that:
>
> "By the time he wrote to Mark Whalon about
> turning down the Yale degree, Bill understood
> the principle of anonymity in a new way.
> Later he declined to be on the cover of Time
> magazine, even, as the editors suggested,
> with his back to the camera. He also turned
> down at least six other honorary degrees and
> a number of overtures from the Nobel Prize
> Committee."
>
> Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

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++++Message 5311. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Chanting at meetings
From: Bill . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/20/2008 4:14:00 PM

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Two cents from Northern Illinois.

The chanting is infiltrating the meetings
here, some with just the "It works if you
work it sober" after the Lords prayer, hands
up and down and all. And some with the D. at
the end of how it works said out loud by all.
As well as "We think not" in response to the
question in the promises, are these extrava-
gant promises.

It all has made me a little nuts. It now has
given me opportunity to practice patience
and tolerance.

Gratefully, Bill

- - - -

From: "Val" <vfilipski@yahoo.com>
(vfilipski at yahoo.com)

I live in Sarasota, Florida and go to 3-4
different meetings a week from open discussion
to closed step meetings and depending on who
is there, there maybe chanting at different
points with How it Works, 12 Traditions and
most frequently during the Promises.

Went to the 50th State convention a few years
ago and after one opening where even the steps
were said in unison, people were requested
to refrain.

I see it in a couple of meetings in Atlanta,
Georgia, and Chevy Chase, Maryland, too.

- - - -

From: Lynn Sawyer <sawyer7952@yahoo.com>
(sawyer7952 at yahoo.com)

Here in Sacramento, California, at most
meetings I attend, the 'C. that God could and
would if He were sought' is repeated, as
well as the last words of Trad. 12,
'principles before personalities.' We don't
read the Promises, or we'd prolly chant that,
too!

Lynn S., Sacramento, CA

- - - -

From: Cindy Miller <cm53@earthlink.net>
(cm53 at earthlink.net)

...wanted to clarify about "chanting" in AA
meetings in Philadelphia. There is no
"chanting" here in west Philadelphia -- most
groups here don't read the Promises out of
context from the text that accompanies them
(I think GSO has asked the groups to be mindful
of this), and there had better not be any
nonsense during "How It Works"--the Old
Timers would shut that down immediately!

Still, one of the nicest closings I ever heard
of went, "will all who care to, join in with
us for the Lord's Prayer, followed by a simple
"Amen"....."

- - - -

From: "Theron B." <theronb49@gmail.com>
(theronb49 at gmail.com)

Haven't encountered this in Michigan yet.
The meetings I go to are primarily in the
middle lower peninsula. Occasionally someone
will call out "What's the point?", which also
happens to be the name of my home group,
incidentally.

Theron

- - - -

From: Eddie Abbott <wabbott1@comcast.net>
(wabbott1 at comcast.net)

My experience in the Houston area is as follows:

It is common for folks to chime in "God could
and would if he were sought" when someone is
reading How it Works.

Some meetings (and I've witnessed oldtimers
do this) chime in "What's The Point" in
between "we are not saints" and "the point
is....."

"Keep coming back, it works if you work it"
is said in unison at the end of the Lord's
Prayer (usually to close the meeting).

For me, it is important to understand and
realize that every group is different, made
up of people "who would normally not mix" and
I believe these variations are a good tool to
help us understand tolerance. Of course if
it really is an issue, take a group conscience
and address it.

- - - -

From: Downtown Doggie <downtowndoggie@yahoo.com>
(downtowndoggie at yahoo.com)

In my homegroup we have regular group
conscience meetings & we decided when at the
end of the Lord's Prayer, some people would
say "It works if you work it" & then drop
holding hands. Our decision was that we did
not as a group want to continue to participate
so we do not say it & we immediately drop hands
with our neighbors. They all eventually
stopped! Now and again when a new person shows
up & says it they stand out & quickly realize
our group does not chant.

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++++Message 5312. . . . . . . . . . . . Electing the Delegate
From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/23/2008 7:30:00 PM

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So far as I know, the power to elect the
Delegate was given to the GSRs (and DCMs,
only then they were ARs) by the Conference
in 1954.

In Eastern PA (then called PA), the first
election was held in November 1954 for the
1955-56 term, on the property of Dick C., who
was elected Delegate. The "State" then
elected an Alternate Delegate/Chairperson
(Ed H.), Secretary (Jo S.), and Treasurer
(Horace H.). The first two Delegates had been
chosen by Bill W., on the recommendation of
Johnny L. of Philadelphia for the first
(George R. of Jenkintown) and Yev G. (formerly
of the Lehigh Valley) for the second (Aaron
Burr B. of Bethlehem).

My understanding from one of the six "Area
Representatives" (now called DCMs) at that
time was that the Delegate, in this case,
was elected first because the main point of
the Assembly was actually to elect a Delegate,
to exercise the franchise given by the 1954
Conference. The most important business was
taken care of first. Note that both the
Alt Del/Chairperson and the Treasurer
subsequently became Delegates.

(My informant, the Area Representative for
what was then "Area 6" of "PA" -- made up of
what are now 17 separate districts within
Eastern PA and stretching from State College
to Pottsville and Elmira to Maryland -- is
still active in AA Service, Chet H. of
Hummelstown, DLD 4/4/1949.)

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++++Message 5313. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Picking the Delegate at Area
Election Assemblies
From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/22/2008 3:21:00 PM

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In the early years of the Conference (parti-
cularly during the trial Conferences) the
Delegate election usually occurred last.

During November/December 1950, 50,000 copies
of a pamphlet titled "Your Third Legacy Will
You Accept It?" were distributed. It explained
the Conference plans and Assembly election
procedures and contained a "Temporary Charter
for the Conference" of "Twelve Suggested Prin-
ciples." Bill also wrote a December 1950
Grapevine article titled "Your Third Legacy."

The Alcoholic Foundation invited one Conference
delegate from each of the then 48 States and
from the Canadian Provinces. Seven states with
large AA populations were assigned additional
delegates.

Delegates were divided into two Panels so that
half would be elected and half would rotate in
odd and even numbered years. Panel 1 areas were
asked to form a temporary committee to organize
an election assembly no later than March 1951.
Bill W traveled across the country attending
over two dozen assemblies electing area commit-
tees and Conference Delegates.

In the earliest years of the Conference
Structure, area assemblies were held primarily
to elect new area officers and a new
Conference delegate. The 1950 Third Legacy
pamphlet offered guidelines for an election
assembly. You might find them amusing.

Each group could select one Group Repres-
entative to attend an assembly. Group
Representatives later (1954) came to be
called General Service Representatives or
GSRs. At the assembly, they placed an "A"
next to their name on the assembly regis-
tration form to indicate that they were
available to serve on the area committee.
This determined the pool of nominees for
elections. Nominations were not allowed from
the floor and all voting was by written
ballot.

The first item of assembly business was to
create an area map divided into districts.
This determined the number of Committeemen
to be elected - one for each district.
Committeemen later came to be called Committee
Members and then District Committee Members
or DCMs.

The entire assembly voted in the election of
Committeemen. Elections were by plurality and
ended when a nominee received at least 25% of
the total votes cast. The first three
Committeemen elected automatically became
the Area Chair, Area Treasurer And area
Secretary in that order.

The delegate election required a 2/3 majority
of the total votes cast. If a 2/3 majority
could not be obtained, the delegate was chosen
by lot from among all the Committeemen whether
they were standing for the delegate election
or not. Each area determined the number of
times to vote prior to settling the election
by lot. Needless to say, much has changed since
then.

Cheers
Arthur

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++++Message 5314. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Sample of Herb D''s handwriting?
From: John Barton . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/22/2008 5:45:00 PM

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In message 5286, I said that "Herb was a
slipper who had been around since 1935 (see
Pass it On p.162)."

- - - -

My mistake! I have found this to be incorrect.
Herb D came in according to a survey of the
New Jersey Group conducted on Jan 1, 1940
(Document in Jersey Archives) earlier in 39.
Survey said he had 9 months. I suspect this
is also wrong unfortunately as I have found
other errors on this survey i.e. lists Hank P
as having "5 years", unlikely since that
would pre-date Dr Bob.

For example many of the "Pioneer Lists" on
the internet ( see below) are in error. Under
1935 they show Bill R. Pass it On says "Bill
and his wife non-alcoholic Kathleen.... "This
is Bill Ruddell who came in Feb 1937. Documents
in the New Jersey Archives confirm Bill Ruddell
and his wife Kathleen in letters from Ruth
Hock. Herb D and Earnest M are both listed in
the 1940 survey as having 9 months. Although
as I said I do question this. These guys
attended the meetings at Clinton Street but
not in 35 as indicated on these Pioneer Lists.
I have a strong suspicion (but unconfirmed)
at this point that Earnest M is "Mac".
Earnest's last name is MacKenzie. Recall
Mac was found drunk in Bill's office when
A LeRoy Chipman from the Rockefeller founda-
tion visited on Vesey Street.Circa 1939/40.

I am trying to chase this down, but we should
not read anything into Pass it On page 162 to
indicate that the people who attended the
Tuesday meetings at 182 Clinton Street were
all attending in 1935. The meetings on Tuesday
went from Fall of 1935 until April of 1939.
Pass it On says Lois remembers so and so etc,
could have been that many names mentioned
attended in later years, as is definitely the
case with Bill R. I must admit that I too
originally read that page in Pass it On with
tunnel vision.

I hope more will be revealed.

God Bless

John B

- - - -

Pioneers of Alcoholics Anonymous – 1934 – 1939

All Below Achieved At Least Some Period of Sobriety.
Some who failed may have achieved permanent sobriety later.
Bolded Names Achieved Permanent Sobriety.

1934

Name

Location

Comment/Big Book Story

Dec 11

Bill Wilson

New York

Co-Founder of AA – Bill's Story

1935

Jun 10

Dr.Bob Smith

Akron

Co-Founder of AA – Dr. Bob's Nightmare

June

Eddie Reilly

Akron

Sobered in 1949

June

Dr. McK.

Akron

Failed to gain long term sobriety

June

Bill Dotson

Akron

Alcoholics Anonymous No.3 – 2nd Ed

July

Ernie Gailbraith

Akron

The Seven Month Slip – (An In-and-Outer Slipper)

Aug

Wes Wyman

Akron

Sobered in 1949

Sept

Hank Parkhurst

New York

The Unbeliever – 4 yrs. Sober
Drunk Sept 1939

Sept

Phil Smith

Akron

Oct

John Henry "Fitz" Mayo

New York

Our Southern Friend

1935

Freddie B.

New York

Failed to gain long term sobriety

1935

Brooke B.

New York

Failed to gain long term sobriety

1935

Bill R. ERROR

New York

Failed to gain long term sobriety

1935

Ernest M. ERROR

New York

Failed to gain long term sobriety

1935

Herb D. ERROR

New York

Failed to gain long term sobriety

1935

Alec

New York

Failed to gain long term sobriety

1935

Russ R.

New York

Failed to gain long term sobriety

1935

Bill C.

New York

Failed to gain long term sobriety

1935

Victor (Akron)

New York

Failed to gain long term sobriety

1935

Lil (Akron)

New York

Failed to gain long term sobriety

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++++Message 5315. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill W.''s royalties from the Big
Book
From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/22/2008 5:30:00 PM

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Thanks for that information, Arthur. I thought
Bill W was making money off the book from the
start.

How authentic do you think was the story of
Father Dowling talking Bill W into taking
royalties?

- - - -

In a message dated 10/22/2008 1:42:17 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
ArtSheehan@msn.com writes:

... Bill W assigned all author's
royalties from the Big Book to the Alcoholic
Foundation around September 1938. On April 22,
1940, Bill W and Hank P gave up their stock
in Works Publishing Co with a written
stipulation that Dr Bob and Anne would receive
10% royalties on the Big Book for life. Bill
did not start receiving royalties from Big
Book sales until after the US entered World
War II in December 1941.

Cheers
Arthur

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++++Message 5316. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Oldest AA meeting place:
Morristown, New Jersey
From: John Barton . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/22/2008 10:20:00 PM

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According to documents in the GSO archives
(copies in NJ archives) Dr Malcolm T. wrote
to the Foundation office on 3/18/41 requesting
to start a meeting in Morristown, New Jersey.
Ruth Hock put him in touch with Bill Ruddell.
Group is listed in June 1941 correspondence
from Ruth Hock with 10 members, Mark D. was
the contact. Meeting would appear to have
started sometime between 3/18/41 and 6/41.

Best Regards

John B

- - - -

--- On Fri, 10/10/08, Stephen Gentile <sagentile@hotmail.com> wrote:

Church of the Redeemer
26 South Street Morristown New Jersey

November 1940 as per archived Redeemer Pamphlet
from the church.

Sunday night speaker meeting
2nd oldest meeting in New Jersey, oldest in
same location.

Kindest Regards, Steve G.

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++++Message 5317. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W. and Time magazine
From: JOHN WIKELIUS . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/22/2008 10:51:00 PM

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Time Magazine June 14, 1999 cover states
100 Heroes and Icons of the 20th Century.

Bill Wilson is named as founder of Alcoholics
Anonymous. Article written by Susan Cheever.

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++++Message 5318. . . . . . . . . . . . What Others Think of AA (1940s)
From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/23/2008 8:10:00 AM

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This is a little known Akron, Ohio, pamphlet
from the 1940s that was found in the Oklahoma
City, Oklahoma, archives. It had the same
shape and size as the four 1940 pamphlets
(“A Guide to the 12 Steps of AA”, “A Manual
for AA”, “AA Second Reader”, and “AA Spiritual
Milestones”) that Akron Intergroup still sells
today.

Across the top of every page it has “WHAT
OTHERS THINK” and included in this pamphlet
are excerpts from talks given by Dr. Bob, Dr.
Silkworth, Clarence Snyder, Bill Wilson,
possibly Marty Mann, and many early newspaper
articles. Very cool!

Just Love,
Barefoot Bill

- - - -

“What Others Think of Alcoholics Anonymous”
Published in Akron
by the
FRIDAY FORUM LUNCHEON CLUB
of the
AKRON A.A. GROUPS

PRICE TEN CENTS

A.A. on the Job
A word of praise is in order for the contribution which alcoholics
Anonymous, Inc., is making to the war effort.
Conservative efforts show that Akron district men whose habits have been
improved through this remarkable organization are putting in at least
536,000 man hours of productive work a year.
Members believe that if they were still addicted to constant overindulgence
in alcohol, at least 40 per cent of this time would be entirely lost while
the remainder would be less useful.
Thus, a double purpose is served by the help-one-another principle of
Alcoholics Anonymous – health and happiness are being restored to members
and the war effort is being materially aided.

Editorial
Akron (Ohio) Beacon Journal
Feb. 14, 1944

What Others Think of A.A.
You are reading this pamphlet because, somewhat reluctantly, you are
becoming convinced that you or someone you know, may be an alcoholic. You
are faced with the necessity of doing something constructive about this
condition. Some person, no doubt a member of Alcoholics Anonymous, has
talked to you. He has explained our program in part and has interpreted it
in terms of what it has done for him.
He is enthused, naturally so, because he has profited mentally, physically,
socially and financially, by applying our principles to his own life. He
feels that you need the program or he wouldn’t be wasting his time and
yours
by telling you these things. He knows, too, that if you need it, you can
profit just as he has profited.
However, if you are an alcoholic you have the typical alcoholic’s doubts
about yourself and about the sincerity of purpose of anyone trying to help
you. In your book “It just doesn’t add up.”
You may say to yourself: “Sure, this fellow thinks this program is great,
because he’s a member. He’s trying to sell me a bill of goods. But what
do
other people think about A.A.? I’ve never even heard about A.A. until now.
What’s it all about?”
With this thought in mind, we have collected and reprinted the following
editorial opinions, news clippings from newspaper files and comments from
people in all walks of life. Much has been written by Alcoholics Anonymous
members about our program. But these are opinions of non-alcoholics about
the works and workings of this group.
In some cases, articles have been cut down to conserve space. In no way,
however, has the text been altered.

Anonymously, They Help
Sometimes drunks are jovial and hilarious; sometimes they are depressed and
morose. Whatever their state of mind, they would seen unlikely persons to
enter wholeheartedly into a help-one-another movement, especially if it
meant giving up alcohol completely.
Yet this is exactly what has happened within the growing ranks of
Alcoholics Anonymous within the last five years. One “rummy” has helped
another – and in so doing has helped himself – until literally hundreds
of
lives have been reclaimed from the ravages of liquor.
These men and women weren’t just social drinkers, who sometimes took one
too many and woke up the next morning with a slitting headache and foggy
memory. They were true alcoholics – to whom liquor once seemed more
essential than food or air. Many of them knew and regretted their weakness,
but it possessed them like a disease.
They found a new life, based on the premise that they have a responsibility
to help others in the same plight. A few have slipped, but the proportion
that have so far been able to put liquor out of their lives is far greater
than has ever been attained by any other method.
Other Akronites can’t exactly pride in something with which they had no
connection, but it is worthy of note that the movement was born in this city
and that two of its three founders were prominent Akron persons. In five
years (A.A. is seven and one-half years old at this printing), the
organization has become nationwide in scope. Its success is a testimonial
to the innate desire of all men and women to help one another.

Reprinted from the
Akron Beacon Journal
Oct. 7, 1941

“Alcoholics Anonymous” Co-Founder Tells of Breaking 35-Year Drunk
By A.D. Le Monte
Gratefully sober, and about as cheerful as any group that ever gathered in
Youngstown, local members of Alcoholics Anonymous met Sunday night to hear
one of the co-founders of the movement speak.
In the room were nearly 100 well-dressed, clear-eyed, determined men who
once were kings of the bottle and masters of building a hangover. With them
were about 50 wives and sisters – who had put up with them in the old days
and helped them on their way to recovery – and myself, one of the few
non-Alcoholics ever to attend a meeting.
My passport Sunday night consisted of an impossible memory for names and an
uncanny ability to forget a face 17 seconds after I’ve seen it. Under
those
conditions I met former heavy drinkers who now are militantly ready to prove
that happiness, peace of mind and a working religion are adequate
substitutes for alcoholism.
Alcoholics Anonymous has captured the attention of psychiatrists and
physicians to the extent that many large hospitals and clinics now offer
free beds to prospective converts.

Not Offered as a Cure
Not a cure, it is offered only to drunks who honestly want to quit
drinking. It is successful only when the “patient” can accept the fact
that
there is a divine power ready to help him, and is willing to continually
sell the method to himself by selling it to others.
There’s nothing holier-than-thou about the organization, and there’s no
preaching. Neither do the members condemn drinking. They merely accept the
fact that while some men can drink, liquor is poison to others and must not
be touched.
The speaker told how he ended 35 years of steady drinking after trying
various methods that included hospital and sanitariums. Ardent reading of
the Bible and an earnest desire to stay sober also failed. He still got
drunk every night. Then he met the other founder-to-be, who had been sober
for four months and had learned that the way to convince himself was to
convince some other drunk. They began working on a third alcoholic and this
practical cure for drunkenness was born.

Begin with Prayer
Members of Alcoholics Anonymous begin the day with a prayer for strength
and a short period of Bible reading. They find the basic messages they need
in the Sermon on the Mount, in Corinthians and the Book of James.
“But that is not enough,” the speaker said, “for you cannot honestly
accept
what you read without also putting it into practice, and that means you must

help someone else.”
Local members, some of them ex-can gangers, others business and
professional men, have experienced probably every form of drunkenness. Some
were alcoholics for as long as 45 years, others for a comparatively short
time. Some lost their jobs and families; one man said that he was drunk
every day for years and never lost a job or got into any trouble.
Several stay sober by praying each morning for the strength to stay away
from liquor for the next 24 hours.
“We don’t worry about yesterday or tomorrow,” one said. “We just
concentrate on today.”

Reprinted from the
Youngstown, O., Vindicator

Article Worth Reading
Editor Beacon Journal:
I hope all Sunday readers of the Beacon Journal read the article in the
November 23 editorial section entitled “I Am An Alcoholic.” The article
is
well and interestingly written and very illuminating as to the technique
employed by Alcoholics Anonymous in winning converts to their cause.
This article should provoke thought and interest among friends and families
of alcoholics, among physicians and psychiatrists, judges, social workers,
ministers and clergy, employers and among alcoholics themselves.
Alcoholism is definitely a disease with many persons. Incarceration is no
solution or cure. Even medical and institutional care fail to keep the
alcoholic sober when he is set adrift again by himself. That’s the
different and wonderful thing about A.A. – it does provide an abiding
anchorage, a new courage and hope – yes, a new world is opened up to the
individual and a new individual is born into this new world.

THOMAS M. POWERS,
Municipal Judge

An Open Letter to the Editor
Of The Beacon Journal, Nov. 27, 1941

Alcoholics Anonymous Lauded by McFarland
By Dr. W. W. McFarland

Alcoholics Anonymous! A group of individuals who are sponsoring and
accomplishing a wonderful task of rehabilitation among others who have
fallen by the wayside.
Chronic alcoholism in its various stages is a mental disease characterized
by lack of will power, inspired by a desire to forget unpleasant things,
terminated in a mental breakdown.
Long continued excessive use of alcohol, eventually results in a complete
mental and physical collapse. Constitutional damage progressively
increases, and the chronic alcoholic finally becomes a family or community
charge.
Is there a cure for this disease? Possibly yes, if taken before the
physical and mental collapse is complete and before the individual has lost
his mental ability to sincerely co-operate in his own rehabilitation.

Will Power Vital
Will power, the desire to get well is the most powerful personal factor in
promoting recovery from many illnesses, and in no other disease is will
power more important than in recovery from chronic alcoholism.
Medicine, nursing, hospitalization, all serve a useful purpose in the
treatment of alcoholism, but if the individual’s will to recover is weak
or
lacking, all supplementary help is of little value.
And so we arrive at Alcoholics Anonymous, a group of men and women
organized for the charitable purpose of aiding unfortunate alcoholics to
strengthen and regain that failing but essential factor for complete
recovery – will power. That they have accomplished wonders in but little
over a year is substantially proven by their own records attested to by
medical groups in New York City and elsewhere.

Co-Operation Is Needed
Working anonymously and without material funds, Alcoholics Anonymous have
built up a membership of over 5,000 recovered individuals, all ex-alcoholics
and all sincerely co-operating in an effort to rehabilitate their
unfortunate brethren.
What can we do for the Pittsburgh branch of Alcoholics Anonymous? Can’t we
give them local hospitalization in institutions equipped to handle
alcoholics? Each individual will be recommended by the local group, and
certified as still retaining that essential factor for complete recovery –
inherent will power.
Will Pittsburgh co-operate? Will the citizens of this community lend a
helping hand to those who are attempting, under the name of Alcoholics
Anonymous to restore men and women to useful lives?

Reprinted from the
Pittsburgh, Pa., Sun-Telegraph

A.A. Homerun
One of the things that makes baseball so intriguing is the way a man can be
transformed from a hero to a bum overnight or vice versa.
But there’s more than just that in the case of Rollie Hemsley, fired by
the
Cincinnati Reds on Friday and the hero of the New York Yankees’ double
victory on Sunday.
Hemsley was one of the best catchers and hardest drinkers in the American
League. He would have been out of baseball long ago, if it hadn’t been for
Alcoholics Anonymous, the organization which believes that the best way for
a chronic alcoholic to cure himself is by helping others.
It was right here in Akron that Hemsley got a grip on himself and extended
his baseball life by several years. But age crept up; he hadn’t batted
well
this year with the Cincinnati Reds, so he was given his unconditional
release.
Did that cause him to go on an alcoholic bender? No. He may have been
flabbergasted but at least he was sober when Manager Joe McCarthy, in dire
need of a catcher, reached him by telephone to offer him a chance with the
Yankees. Off to New York he flew, to catch two full games and lead the
batting for his new teammates on Sunday.
Maybe clean living isn’t always rewarded but it’s plain enough to be
seen
that Hemsley would not now be on the New York Yankees’ roster and headed
for
a slice of World Series money if he were still up to his old tricks. Score
another homerun for Alcoholics Anonymous!

An Editorial, July 21, 1942
Akron Beacon Journal

Alcoholics Anonymous
By Regine Kurlander
Several months ago, there appeared in this column a piece attempting to
interpret and explain the woman’s sector of the Cleveland group of
Alcoholics Anonymous. In that story I told of lost people who had found
themselves … of men and women, not hard drinkers in the usual sense of the
word, but actual dupes of the fruitful grape and grain. And I tried to set
forth the difference between the former and those for whom alcohol is a
poison creating a compulsive neurosis (and subsequent allergy) that drags
them into degradation, illness, insanity and death.

Faith
Here, too, it was stated, that this nation-wide group, now numbering nearly
7,000, were never so foolish as to imagine they had the strength and the
power to achieve miracles alone. But that they had, with directness and
simplicity, reached for divine guidance with one hand (proclaiming that
intention) while stretching the other hand to their equally unfortunate
brothers and sisters.
Last Wednesday night, here in Manhattan I attended the first annual dinner
of the New York group of Alcoholics Anonymous. Here, among members of the
New York press (invited for the first time by the A.A.’s) together with
about 450 ex-alcoholics, accompanied by their wives and husbands, victims of
alcohol once removed, I heard Father Vincent Donovan (vigorous brother of
vigorous “Wild Bill”) magnificently extol the A.A. movement from the
standpoint of religion.
I also heard Dr. L. R. Silman of the psychiatric department of Columbia
University praise it in the name os science and humanity, and wistfully
suggest A.A. permit its ideology to be spread over a non-alcoholic world as
well. And I listened to Dr. W. D. Silkworth, physician in a sanitarium for
dipsomaniacs, maintain the A. A. principle is the first in the entire
history of alcohol’s Machiavellian grip on humanity, that has exercised
it,
even in passing.

Taken from the column,
“THIS – AND GLAMOUR, TOO”,
Cleveland Plain Dealer, Saturday, June 20, 1942

“What Makes An Alcoholic An Alcoholic?” was the question discussed by a
prominent New York businesswoman at an open meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous
Thursday night in United church. The answer, according to the speaker, lies
in the old adage, “one man’s meat is another man’s poison.”
“Alcoholics,” the speaker said, “are not confined to ‘stumble
bums’ but all

alcoholics share one thing in common: an allergy to alcohol. Alcoholism,
therefore, should be treated as a disease rather than as a moral offense.”
Among non-members present were Mayor Jasper McLevy, Dr. Fred Hoskins, of
United church, the Rev. A. Lester M. Worthey, of Christ church, and
representatives of the personnel offices of several was plants.
The work being done throughout the country by Alcoholics Anonymous has been
approved and encouraged by medical men and psychologists. Additional
recognition was given the organization recently in the form of an invitation
to participate in a study of alcoholism made at Yale University. The
Bridgeport address of the organization is P.O. Box 1006.

Bridgeport (Conn.) Post
September 24, 1943

All Things Considered
By Howard Vincent O’Brien

The publishers of “The Lost Weekend,” a book by Charles Jackson, call it
“one of the great pieces of modern writing.” So sure are they of its
success that their first printing was 20,000 copies – ten times the
normal.
I am sure they are right, I think it will go into more than one printing
and will be widely discussed.
It is not a pleasant book. It is, in fact, one of the most horrible books
I ever read – and its horror is not the synthetic sort. It is as real and
as terrifying as the clinical report on a patient in an asylum. Indeed,
that is precisely what it is – the story of five days in the life of an
alcoholic.

Lost Weekend
It is a hideous story, as it must be; for the life of an alcoholic is a
hideous thing. I cannot imagine anybody who is not an alcoholic or is not
interested in some alcoholic, reading it for amusement. On the other hand,
I cannot imagine anyone who has experienced alcoholism, personally or as a
spectator, pulling it down once he has started to read it.
Alcoholism is one of the most widespread of diseases. It attacks the most
gifted and charming people, and is no respector of race, creed, color, age,
sex, or social standing. It is a mystery form which hardly the outer veil
has been lifted.
No alcoholic, apparently, has ever been helped by threats or moralizing or
“treatment.” The most successful attack on alcoholism, so far as I know,
is
that of “Alcoholics Anonymous” – an informal organization of
alcoholics, one
of whose tenets is that nobody can understand an alcoholic but another
alcoholic.
The fundamental thesis of “Alcoholics Anonymous” is that a man can save
himself only by saving others. And therein is the paradox of alcoholism:
the alcoholic is what he is because his soul is turned in upon itself.

Irony
If you think the problem of the alcoholic is a simple one – that all you
need say to free him of his incubus is: “snap out of it” – then read
the
grim pages of “The Lost Weekend” – and weep!
You will dream no more of scolding the alcoholic back to normalcy; for you
will have a picture that you can’t forget of the torture that the
alcoholic
inflicts upon himself.
What fools, at best, we human beings are! Here we are, busy at the task of
mutual extermination; but not too busy to be planning a warless world. And
as we face hopefully up to the mystery of war, confident that it can be
abolished, we have on our own doorsteps the equally great mystery of
alcohol – with hardly a glimmer of an idea what to do about it.
Well, the first step toward the solution of a problem is to state it, and
this “The Lost Weekend” does – with unshrinking ruthlessness, with a
fidelity to fact that will stun anyone who has not seen these things
himself.

Chicago Daily News,
February 16, 1944.

A Dramatic Success

No organization in America has made more dramatic success in dealing with
victims of the drink than Alcoholics Anonymous, a society that has no formal
membership, no regular dues, no by-laws, and no dogmatic creed except the
“twelve steps to recovery.” The unsalaried head of the movement is known
as
“Bill” to the more than 10,000 men and women who are affiliated in the
fight
for freedom from alcohol. Only the other day “Bill” announced that more

than 5,000 “ex-drunks” had been given back to the nation as sober men,
and
employed in one way or another in the war effort.
For every one of these liberated individuals we are profoundly grateful.
But we cannot refrain from observing that for every sober worker Alcoholics
Anonymous has added to the roll of the nation’s workers, the liquor
traffic
has subtracted an uncounted number. The labor loss due to the use of liquor
constitutes a damning indictment of the traffic wherever the true facts are
brought to light.

Christian Advocate,
July 1, 1943

Progress Through A.A.

…Many of our patients are making splendid progress in readjusting their
lives on a non-alcoholic basis through association with a group of
ex-alcoholics known as “Alcoholics Anonymous.” They stress the spiritual
values of life and offer to each other a fellowship of sympathetic
understanding and helpfulness which we believe to be sound and worthy of the
highest praise…
One of our patients in particular who was a heavy drinker for twenty years
and finally found himself upon the brink of destruction is now accomplishing
a wonderful “come back” to a normal, happy and successful life through
his
association with “Alcoholics Anonymous.” He has taken up an early hobby,
long neglected through alcoholic indulgence, of collecting a scrapbook of
inspirational gems in literature…We have reprinted it for the use of our
convalescing patients.

Reprinted from literature of the Samaritan Treatment, nationally known
treatment for alcoholics.

An Open Meeting

For the first time invited guests were admitted yesterday to a joint
meeting of the 39 Cleveland area groups of Alcoholics Anonymous, remarkable
fellowship which is credited with restoring to useful and happy lives
thousands of admitted victims of extreme alcoholism.
Object of the gathering was to give friends of A.A. members a chance to
gain a better understanding of the fellowship’s work.
To even the keenest observer it would have been nearly impossible to
distinguish among the 800 persons who assembled in the ballroom of Hotel
Cleveland those who were former two-quart-a-day imbibers and those who were
merely guests.

At Ease in A.A.
Perhaps the only tipoff was that the A.A. members knew each other and
greeted each other enthusiastically and were completely at ease, while the
nonmembers stood silently by apparently somewhat uncomfortable.
The meeting opened with the chairman, who in deference to the fellowship’s
principle of anonymity shall be nameless in this story, describing A.A’s
work and aims.
:Our growth,” he explained, “has been phenomenal, and this has resulted
in
misconceptions in many minds.
“We ask you to remember this: We can help only those who sincerely and
honestly want help.
“We cannot hold as members men and women who do not accept without
reservation, our simple program for living. We are not uplifters or
reformers. We do not try to sell A.A.
“The individual, plus a power greater than himself, can become a
successful
member. We understand him; we can encourage and help him.
Outsiders Amazed
“Most outsiders are amazed when we tell them that it is possible to stop
drinking entirely and enjoy life. Nevertheless, that is a fact. And we are
having a swell time.”
The principle speaker was the man who formed the first A.A. group in
Cleveland five years ago. There are today more than 1,600 members in this
area.
This speaker assured the guests that A.A. had no desire to reform the
world, that it was not “prohibitionist” or against social drinking by
persons who could do such drinking without becoming alcoholics.
Alcoholism he described as “a disease that takes away the finer things of
life,” and he explained: “We are interested only in persons who have
definite alcoholic problems and wish to overcome them.”
The A.A. program, he went on, is based on spiritual principles, and new
members are told that they “must put a dependence in God.” The program
includes 12 steps, the first three of which are for the development of
intellectual humility, the next six for self-analysis or
“housecleaning” of
the personality and the last three for the maintenance of a state of mind
leading to “dryness” of thought.
Cleveland area members include representatives of nearly all professions.

Cleveland Plain Dealer,
March 3, 1944.

Sports Writer’s View
By BILL CUNNINGHAM

Not as a suppliant, thank God, but out of reportorial curiosity I attended
the other night a meeting of that unique brotherhood and sisterhood known as
Alcoholics Anonymous. My previous relations with it had been entirely
second hand. They began two or three years ago when I wrote that, at the
time, seemed to be the eerie story of the enlistment in the cold water army
of Rollie Hemsley, the Cleveland catcher, and, until then one of
baseball’s
leading Admirals of the Red, a gent who swacked it down raw and unmarried,
and then went looking for action, cops and managers preferred…
(Editors note: Cunningham here tells at length how Hemsley was sobered up
in an Akron hospital and remained sober through Alcoholics Anonymous.)
…the founder of Alcoholics Anonymous was here the other night and I
decided
to go hear him speak…Instead of “jittery neurotics” there were
probably a
hundred of as nice looking and important looking people as you could gather
together in any town. There were several intensely interested looking
clergymen in their cloth. I recognized a couple of the town’s leading
doctors. They were obviously there for information, some possibly as
endorsers, or “next friends,” as the organization calls them, a category
in
which they apparently have placed me.
The founder, we’ll call him Bill, was a tall, easy-to-take sort of fellow
with a good sense of humor and an easy way of talking. He told the story of
the founding of the movement, which was really the story of his life, and
how liquor had him down and out in 1934. He used such terms as “we
drunks”
and “we alcoholics” and the audience, including many of the women, would
smile and nod their acceptance of the fraternal classification, the
experience he was describing, and the point he was making…
…The basic theory seems to be that nobody but an ex-drunk can really help
a
drunk. Teetotalers, or people who haven’t been in the depths themselves,
can’t really appeal to an alcoholic, but if a man goes to one and says,
“Listen, no matter how low you are, how you are suffering, I was once
lower
and suffered even more; I pulled myself out of it and so can you,” there
is
a solid taking-off point.
All they ask is that a man admit he is otherwise licked, that he wants
help, and that he believes or even will try to believe in God, or at least
in some power, however vaguely conceived, that is bigger and stronger than
himself. He’s got to have something to reach for and to hook to. They
rationalize his problems, help him straighten out his maladjustments find
him a new interest to replace the bottle, and that new interest in many
cases is working on other drunks in the same shape that he was…
This doesn’t apply naturally to those who can take it or leave it alone,
but to those who can’t take it and can’t leave it alone.

Boston Post,
February 28, 1943.

And the Ladies

NEW YORK, March 18 – We have to face the unpleasant fact that drinking to
excess has increased among us women lately – due, probably, to the almost
unbearable stress of the times and because so many are lonely or worried
about their men at the wars, or often both. As is the case with men, most
of the girls can control their elbow bending, but there is the fatal and
tragic few who became in time what are technically called chronic
alcoholics, but often labeled problem drinkers.
You have probably heard of the remarkable crowd of men and women who call
themselves Alcoholics Anonymous – people who have managed to haul
themselves
out of the alcoholic swamp by main strength and spiritual horsepower. The
latter is the keynote of their salvation – an inner strength and belief
that
has nothing to do with formal creed.
First feminine member of the local A.A. club has just appealed to all women
rum victims to get together with their home town groups. One of the secrets
of the considerable A.A. success lies in frequent meetings.
Though I am practically a teetotaler, I have been to one of these
get-togethers. The men and women play cards, talk, eat snacks, have a very
pleasant time, I needn’t say that they are what are usually called “nice
people,” for one of the great tragedies of liquor addiction is that it so
often claims the cleverest, the most intelligent, the most sensitive. I
know one fine Washington girl who has been off the stuff about a year, and
goes to A.A. meetings there. And you’d be surprised as I was at the
identity of many of the people trying to lick the old enemy in the capital.

By Alice Hughes in article syndicated by
King Features, March 19, 1944

Psychology Helps

CASE C-255: Henry D., aged 35, is a talented dentist.
“My wife is about to divorce me, however,” he spoke gloomily over the
telephone, “because I can’t let whiskey alone. It is ruining my home as
well as my practice. I used to think I could quit the drink habit if I
wanted to, but I guess I was wrong. Dr. Crane, what would you recommend?”
DIAGNOSIS: I told Henry I would refer his case to our Chicago branch of the
society called “Alcoholics Anonymous,” made up of former drunkards from
all
walks of life.
That same afternoon two men walked into Henry’s dental office and
introduced themselves. One was a doctor and the other a lawyer. They
belonged to “Alcoholics Anonymous.” They bundled Henry into their auto
and
headed for Oak Park, a suburb of Chicago, where their weekly meeting was to
be held that night.
Henry had called his wife just before he left the office, but she upbraided
him for not coming home, alleging that he was simply going on another spree.
So he took some pamphlets home with him as evidence, and is now headed back
to normalcy and freedom from the drink habit.
“ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS” employs several sound psychological principles in
curing chronic drunkards.
First, it gets them to confess that they are helpless victims of alcohol.
As long as a man tries to kid himself along by saying he can always quit
liquor, as well as tobacco, whenever he wants to do so, he will rarely be
able to break the dominance of such bad habits.
But as soon as he openly admits that he is a slave to these chemical
agents, there is hope of helping him. He is then told that chronic
alcoholism is a disease.
Moreover, he associates with others who have previously sunk to the depths
of degradation and poverty because of liquor. They match his story with
their own autobiographies, for they have “testimonial” and
“confessional”
periods at every meeting.
THESE ASSOCIATES keep telling him not to worry, for he’ll be cured. This
is excellent positive suggestion and re-stimulates him to renewed courage.
As such, it is far superior to the criticism of the wife or family who tell
him “I knew you couldn’t quit.”
As soon as the victim is cured, then he is immediately made sponsor of some
other newcomer to the organization. This responsibility for setting an
example to his protégé; thus helps inspire the cured members and keep him
on
the right track.

-DR. GEORGE W. CRANE.

Hopkins Syndicate,
Published Nation-wide,
May 29, 1944.

DETACH AND MAIL THIS COUPON
For Copies of this Booklet

Those desiring additional copies of this booklet may obtain same at a cost
of ten cents per copy or eight cents per copy in lots of fifty or more.
Simply sign and mail the form below. All copies will be sent postage
pre-paid in a plain envelope or package. Make checks payable to the Friday
Forum Luncheon Club.

Post Office Box 932, Akron, Ohio

Gentlemen:
Enclosed find $_________. Send me postage prepaid _____ copies of your
booklet, “What Others Thik of A.A.”

Name _______________________
Street ______________________
City _____________ State _____

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++++Message 5319. . . . . . . . . . . . Any history and photos available on
Gordon McDougal
From: juan.aa98 . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/23/2008 4:42:00 PM

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Any info and pictures on Gordon McDougal would
be appreciated.

My email address is:

<juan.aa98@yahoo.com>
(juan.aa98 at yahoo.com)

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++++Message 5320. . . . . . . . . . . . AA in South Orange, New Jersey (1 of
3)
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/25/2008 4:35:00 PM

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From "John Barton" <jax760@yahoo.com>
(jax760 at yahoo.com)

AA in South Orange, New Jersey (1 of 3)

The History of Alcoholism and Alcoholics Anonymous
in South Orange, New Jersey

Section 1 (of 3)

In order to study the history of Alcoholics Anonymous in South Orange, New
Jersey, it might be a good idea to go back briefly and look at the history
of
A.A. as a whole. Actually, it might be fun to go back and put together the
pieces of the puzzle before A.A. began. Just as you and I have parents,
grandparents and great grandparents, for whom had it not been we never would
have been born, the same is true of A.A. Prior to the meeting of the New
York
Stock broker and the Akron Physician on Mother’s day, May 12, 1935, many
events
had to take place in order to set the stage for that historic occasion.
In Part I, we looked at the history of alcohol and alcoholism. We saw the
rise
of alcoholic drinking and the temperance movement instituted by the
Washingtonians. We learned something of the rescue missions and the
groundbreaking work of William James. Lastly, we learned of a Lutheran
Minister
by the name of Frank Buchman, who had started a “First Century Christian
Fellowship” which was to play a major role in the Social Phenomenon which
was to
become Alcoholics Anonymous.
In Part II, we learned that the Oxford Group and their life changing program
of
recovery had sobered, Rowland Hazard and Ebby Thatcher who brought the
message
of recovery to Bill Wilson. Bill had a sudden spiritual experience in Towns
Hospital and never drank again. In May of 1935, Bill brought the message of
recovery to Dr. Robert Smith and in June of 1935 the first group of
recovering
alcoholics had formed in Akron, Ohio, though no one knew it at the time.

In August of 1935 Bill Wilson left Akron and returned to New York. Not long
after Bill found his first New York prospect at Town’s Hospital. Most
historians
date it as September when Bill first began working with Henry P Parkhurst.
Henry
(Hank) had been an executive with the Standard Oil Co. and was fired for his
drinking. Hank was to become Bill’s first New York “sponsee” and was
from
Teaneck, New Jersey.

New Jersey A.A. can trace its roots to this event.

In October of 1935, Bill got his second recruit from Town’s hospital, Fitz
Mayo.

In the fall of 1935, a little band of recovering drunks had formed and began
attending Oxford Group meetings in Brooklyn at Bill & Lois’s house at 182
Clinton Street. These meetings included Bill and his wife Lois, Hank and his
wife Kathleen, Fitz Mayo, Bill R. and his wife Kathleen, and two other New
Jerseyites, Herb Debevoise and his wife Margaret from South Orange and
Ernest
McKenzie from Westwood. Hank (The Unbeliever) and Fitz (Our Southern Friend)
had
their stories included in the first edition of the Big Book. Pass it On
indicates that there were other attendees at these Tuesday night meetings
including Ebby Thatcher who had moved in with the Wilson’s, Shep Cornell,
Freddie B (The Chemistry Professor) Brooke B. (from Calvary House) and Alec
who
had also moved in with the Wilson’s.
At the close of 1935, there were two growing bands of sober alcoholics
within
the Oxford Groups. The Akron contingent consisting of Dr. Bob, Bill Dotson
and
third recruit named Phil Smith. The New York contingent consisted of Bill
Wilson, Hank Parkhurst and Fitz Mayo. Other members in both contingents had
not
yet achieved sobriety or were continuously slipping.

At the close of 1935 there were three New Jersey members of A.A., Hank
Parkhurst
of Teaneck, Herb Debevoise of South Orange, and Ernest McKenzie of Westwood.

Moving forward to 1937, on February 13th the Alcoholic Squadron of the New
York
Oxford Group held a meeting in New Jersey at Hank Parkhurst’s Teaneck
home. It
was the first time the group of drunks met here in New Jersey to conduct an
Oxford Group meeting. Hank and Kathleen would later move (during 1937) to
Montclair, New Jersey
In 1937, New Jersey added additional members to its ranks. In February Bill
Ruddell of Hackettstown joined the growing band of nameless drunks. Bill’s
story
appeared in the first edition of the book Alcoholics Anonymous (A Business
Man’s
Recovery). In March of 37 Florence Rankin joined the growing band of
recovering
drunks and was the first woman to achieve any sobriety time. Florence hailed
from Westfield, New Jersey. Florence’s story appeared in the first edition
of
the “big book” (A Feminine Victory). In July of 37, Paul Kellogg of
Roselle
achieved sobriety.

In August of 1937, the New York alcoholics split from the Oxford Group. Bill
and
Lois were frequently criticized by OG members for concentrating too much on
reforming drunks rather than carrying on Oxford Group work. The alcoholics
in
New York also had difficulty complying with some of the Oxford Group
principles
such as the Four Absolutes and receiving “guidance” from other group
members.
The group in Akron would continue its affiliation with the Oxford Group
until
late in 1939.

In October of 1937, Bill returned to Akron on a business trip. Visiting with
Dr
Bob one afternoon they “counted noses” of the alcoholics staying sober
in both
New York and Akron. They realized that some forty, formerly medically
hopeless
alcoholics were recovering as the result of the life changing program
undertaken. More than half of these cases had more than one year of
continuous
sobriety. Bill and Bob realized they need to make this program of recovery
available to as many alcoholics as possible. They convince the Akron
contingent
to support the idea of building hospitals to rehabilitate alcoholics, hiring
paid missionaries to carry on the life changing work in conjunction with the
hospitals, and to write a book outlining the life changing program.

Bill returns to New York and receives an enthusiastic response to the ideas
he
had proposed in Akron. Bill and Hank begin trying to raise funds for the
book
project. They have little success over the next two months and Bill is quite
dejected.

In December of 1937, Bill visits his brother-in-law Dr. Leonard Strong.
Leonard
calls an old friend, Willard Richardson who is the manager of John D.
Rockefellers philanthropies. Bill meets Richardson who is interested in the
work
being done by the recovering alcoholics and arranges for second meeting held
in
January which included Bill W, Dr Bob, Hank P, Fitz M, Paul Stanley and Ned
P (a
new man). Other attendees were Dr Silkworth, Richardson, Frank Amos, A LeRoy
Chipman and Albert Scott.

In January of 1938, Hank Parkhurst opened an office in Newark New Jersey
located
at 9-11 Hill Street. Hank later moved the office to 17 William Street. The
office was "the headquarters for a rapidly failing business," according to
Bill. The "rapidly failing business" was Honor Dealers, which Hank had
conceived, according to one source, as a way of getting back at Standard
Oil,
which had fired him. His plan was to provide selected gasoline stations with
the
opportunity to buy gasoline, oil, and automobile parts on a cooperative
basis.
Hank hired a secretary, Ruth Hock and Bill Wilson was hired to be a salesman
for
the company. Ruth remembered very little gasoline business being conducted
there. A lot of people dropped in to discuss their drinking problems, and on
more than one occasion she observed Bill and Hank kneeling in prayer by the
side
of Hank's desk with one of these visitors, an Oxford Group custom when
seeking
God's guidance. It was here in the offices of Honor Dealers that the book
Alcoholics Anonymous was to be written.

In February, Willard Richardson asked Frank Amos to visit Akron and make a
report on the Fellowship. Amos wrote a very favorable and glowing report
that
Richardson sent to John D Rockefeller Jr. urging a donation of $5,000 a year
for
1 or possibly 2 years (the equivalent of $71,4290 a year in today’s
dollars).
Rockefeller replied to Richardson that it was contrary to the policy of his
philanthropies to fully fund a charitable enterprise unless it was decided
to
carry it indefinitely. Rockefeller declined to make a donation for the
second
year but did provide $5,000 to be held in a fund in the Riverside Church
treasury. Much of the fund was used to immediately assist Dr Bob by paying
off
the mortgage to his home. The remainder was used to provide Bill and Dr Bob,
who
were both in very difficult financial straits with $120 a month ($1,667 a
month
today) so that they could continue to dedicate themselves full time to the
Fellowship.

March marked the beginning of the writing of the Big Book at Hank’s office
(Honor Dealers, 9-11 Hill St in Newark, NJ). Bill W wrote, edited and
rewrote
manuscripts at home on legal pads then dictated chapters to Ruth Hock
(nicknamed
“Dutch” - short for “Duchess” who was then the Honor Dealers
Secretary). Bill W
wrote to Dr Bob that he had dictated two chapters of the proposed
book” (There
Is a Solution and Bill’s Story).

Additional chapters were written in the new offices at 17 William Street.

By Spring of 1938, Bill was being pressured to write promotional material
for
the book project. Also at this time it became evident that the group needed
a
foundation, so a young attorney named John Wood, a friend of Frank Amos, was
hired. The name "The Alcoholic Foundation" was chosen to leave open all
sorts of
possibilities for future endeavors. Members of the first board of trustees
were
Dick Richardson, Frank Amos, John Wood, Bill Ruddell, and Dr. Bob. Ruddell
of
Hackettstown, got drunk a few months later and was replaced by another New
Jersey member, Harry Brick. Harry, from Montclair, New Jersey was
“Fred”,
partner in the well known accounting firm in chapter three of the big book.
Harry’s story ( A Different Slant) also appeared in the first edition of
the big
book. Harry too, later got drunk and had to be removed from the board. It
seems
like the early pioneers from New Jersey would have their troubles in
maintaining
sobriety.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 5321. . . . . . . . . . . . AA in South Orange, New Jersey (2 of
3)
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/25/2008 4:35:00 PM

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From "John Barton" <jax760@yahoo.com>
(jax760 at yahoo.com)

AA in South Orange, New Jersey (2 of 3)

The History of Alcoholism and Alcoholics Anonymous
in South Orange, New Jersey

Section 2 (of 3)

During an early Fall meeting of the trustees, Frank Amos popped up with the
idea
that one of his friends—Gene Exman—one of the religious editors of
Harpers
Magazine, might be interested in the book project. (Bill went to meet Exman,
who
was quite pleased with what Bill had written and said he could probably get
an
advance of $1,500 "If it could help things along." This would be deducted
from
the sale of the books when finished. Bill was uneasy with the thought that
an
outsider might end up in control of the group’s major asset. He reported
the
offer to the trustees and they were very happy, but they could not
understand
Bill’s conclusion and dismay. They pointed out authors very seldom publish
their
own works, a well-known fact. The meeting ended with no conclusion. Hank
Parkhurst asked Bill, "Why do we bother with those trustees, they have not
raised a cent and they are not going to, either. Let’s put this proposed
book on
a business basis and form a stock company. We’ll sell shares to our own
folks."
Still, the trustees were skeptical, so Bill went back to see Exman who
agreed
the membership should print its own book. The New York Group and Dr. Bob
agreed
but the rest of the Akron Group was skeptical.

Hank worked out a prospectus for the new publishing company, which they
called
"The 100 Men Corporation." They would offer 600 shares for sale at $25 par
value
[$25 for each share]. Hank went down to a stationary store, bought blank
stock
certificates, typed in his full name, followed by the title "President." The
name of the publishing company was "Works Publishing Co.," but the
corporation
was not registered until several years later. Hank and Bill were each to
keep
200 shares for their work on the book, the balance of the 200 shares would
be
sold for $25 per share. This would raise the $5,000 needed to publish the
book.
Hank button-holed every member in New York, persuading and brow beating them
one-by-one, while Bill followed him around trying to smooth things over, but
with all their expertise they still could not sell the certificates.

Then Hank had another idea: Why not get a magazine to do an article about
the
book and the group? Dr. Silkworth was renting a house from the
publisher-owner
of the Reader’s Digest, a Mr. Williams. Every month Dr. Silkworth sent his
rent
to Mr. Walters, who was president of the magazine – which had a
circulation of
12 million readers at that time. So Bill and Hank prevailed upon Dr.
Silkworth
to send copies of the first two chapters of the Big Book to Walters with a
recommendation of the new organization and its founders. That is how they
got in
touch with Kenneth Payne, the managing editor of the Reader’s Digest. So
Bill
and Hank sped off to see Payne, who seemed quite interested -- and assured
them
the magazine would want to run an article when the book was ready to hit the
streets.

Now they had some real ammunition to drum up support for the book, something
to
really sink their teeth into. Now the former doubters began to sign up—but
nearly everyone was broke, so they offered the stock on the installment
plan, $5
a month for five months. Most could only afford a single share. When the
trustees were informed of the good luck, they signed up, too. Dr. Silkworth
and
Dr. Tiebout pitched in, and a few of Bill’s Wall Street friends chipped in
a
little. Charles Towns loaned them $2,500. But he would not buy stock, he
wanted
a note for security! Eventually, the 200 shares were sold. Finally, the
subscribers felt they would eventually get their money back, so everyone got
behind the deal. Bill began writing the remainder of the book, making notes
on
legal pads, and dictating to Ruth Hock in the little office room 601 at 17
William Street.

With the writing of the Chapter to the Agnostic and How it Works the fight
in
New York was on. Bill favored writing a spiritual book that was filled with
references to God. Hank Parkhurst led the fight along with another new comer
named Jimmy Burwell, to keep the book psychological in nature and no
religion.
Fitz and the Akron members also favored a spiritual book. The fight almost
broke
up the little fledging fellowship and Bill eventually compromised including
such
expressions as “higher power” and God “as we understood him” in the
book.
Several of the steps were re-written in the process. The original version of
the
Twelve Steps is shown below:

1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol - that our lives had become
unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that God could restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our wills and our lives over to the care and
direction of God.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature
of
our wrongs.
6. Were entirely willing that God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly on our knees asked Him to remove these shortcomings - holding back
nothing.
8. Made a complete list of all persons we had harmed and became willing to
make
amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so
would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly
admitted it.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our contact with God,
praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that
out.
12. Having had a spiritual experience as the result of this course of
action, we
tried to carry this message to others, especially alcoholics, and to
practice
these principles in all our affairs.

In January of 1939 the first draft of the Big Book was complete. Four
hundred
multilith copies were produced and distributed to the shareholders and
interested parties for review. One of those to review the book was
reportedly
the “Chief Psychiatrist of NJ” “Dr. Howard” from Montclair, New
Jersey who
suggested softening the tone of the book to make it appear more suggestive.
Dr.
“Howard” is considered to be an alias and may have actually been Dr.
Marcus A.
Curry, Chief at the NJ State Asylum for the Insane at Greystone Park during
the
years 1936-40.

In April of 1939 the Big Book is published with the name “Alcoholics
Anonymous”
Bill had credited a New York member (and psychiatric patient) Joe W with the
name.

On April 26, 1939 Bill and Lois were evicted from their home at 182 Clinton
Street in Brooklyn. They moved in with Hank and Kathleen Parkhurst who were
now
living in Montclair, New Jersey.

On April 29, 1939 New Jersey member Morgan Ryan of Glen Ridge (former
advertising man, asylum patient and friend of Gabriel Heatter) appeared on
Heatter’s 9:00 PM radio program “We the People.” He told his story and
made a
pitch for the newly published Big Book. Morgan had been sequestered at the
downtown Athletic Club for a number of days to ensure his sobriety remained
intact for the program.

On May 11, 1939 the first meeting of “Alcoholics Anonymous” using the
name
“Alcoholics Anonymous” was held in Cleveland. The group had been forced
to
split from the Akron Oxford Group due to its Catholic members having trouble
within their churches regarding attendance at Oxford Group meetings.
Although
non-denominational, the Oxford Group had its roots in Classical Liberal
Protestantism.

On May 14, 1939, a Sunday afternoon, the very first meeting of what was to
become the New Jersey Group of Alcoholics Anonymous took place in the home
of
Hank and Kathleen in Montclair. Meetings that had been formerly held in
Brooklyn
were held in New Jersey for the next 5 or 6 weeks. The meetings began at
4:00
and went most of the night. They rotated speakers for the first portion
according to Jim Burwell who was probably living at Hank and Kathleen's home
as
well at that time. These were dinner meetings with Herb Debevoise from South
Orange paying for a "big spread". The wives always attended these along with
their spouse's. At the May 14th, meeting they voted in the Bill and Lois
Home
replacement fund and each pledged different amounts of which none of them
paid
more than a few months. They wrote up a document with this information which
is
in the GSO archives. (Bill and Lois were doing an errand when they voted
this
Home Replacement Fund in - they arrived shortly thereafter and Lois wrote in
her
diary that they were thrilled.) Marty Mann was still a Blythewood Sanitarium
patient and she took the train to the meeting from CT. to NJ.

In the early summer of 1939 there was a falling out between Bill and Hank.
Hank
wanted to leave his wife and marry Ruth Hock, the secretary from Honor
Dealers.
She refused his proposal and Hank felt that Bill had interfered. In late
June
Hank and Kathleen would split up. Hank moved to East Orange, Bill and Lois
left
to stay at the Bungalow owned by Horace Crystal (a New York member) in Green
Pond, New Jersey. Green Pond was in the remote wilderness and Lois loved it.
Her
diary entries from that time, many of which are in Lois Remembers, are the
longest and happiest of that first 5 year period.

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++++Message 5322. . . . . . . . . . . . AA in South Orange, New Jersey (3 of
3)
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/25/2008 4:36:00 PM

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From "John Barton" <jax760@yahoo.com>
(jax760 at yahoo.com)

AA in South Orange, New Jersey (3 of 3)

The History of Alcoholism and Alcoholics Anonymous
in South Orange, New Jersey

Section 3 (of 3)

Shortly after, probably in late June or early July, the New Jersey Group of
Alcoholics Anonymous began meeting at the South Orange home of Herb
Debevoise on
Hartford Road. At this time, the group was beginning to grow and had about
15
members.

During 1939, A.A Groups would also start in Detroit, Chicago and Washington
D.C.
The New York group began meeting upstairs in the shop owned by Bert Taylor
in
Manhattan. In Akron, they continued to meet at the home of T. Henry and
Clarace
Williams as the Oxford Group. The Cleveland meeting was being held at the
home
of Abby Goldrick.
In early September, Hank Parkhurst had returned to drinking. Bill’s first
sponsee, the great promoter of the Big Book and the founder of A.A. in New
Jersey would never again return to A.A and enjoy sobriety. Hank would nurse
resentment against Bill for the rest of his life and cause division within
the
A.A. ranks in the months to come.

At the end of the summer of 1939, Bill and Lois moved in with Bob and Mag
Valentine. Their farmhouse was located in Bog Hollow near Monsey, NY. Bob
was a
member of the New Jersey Group with six months sobriety at the time.

On October 22, 1939 the first ever public meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous
was
held at the South Orange Community Center. A newcomer with just five months
of
sobriety, Gordon MacDougall, along with Herb Debevoise had arranged the
public
meeting space to accommodate the growing New Jersey Group who now had
between
twenty and twenty-five members attending its meetings. This meeting was held
on
Sunday evening at 5:30 PM and marked the start of regular Sunday night
meetings.
This could be considered the actual anniversary date of the South Orange
Sunday
Night Group that currently meets at 111 Irvington Ave. It was this group,
then
known as the New Jersey Group, that would become the “mother group” for
all of
New Jersey.

On January 1, 1940 the group produced a membership roster that is housed in
the
GSO archives. The survey was probably conducted in preperation for the
Rockefeller dinner held in February. The member list shows forty-one names,
but
indicates seven are no longer group members. Of the active members, there
are
several pioneers of A.A. and five people with between one and three years of
continuous sobriety. Another nineteen members have between three months and
one
year and six are working on ninety days.

The group claims an overall success rate of 73% with 46% getting and staying
sober on the first try. These were consistent with the fellowship’s report
to
the Rockefellers and the press. A.A. would continue to use the 50-25-25%
figures
quoted in the foreword to the second edition of the Big Book for many years
to
come. The membership of the New Jersey Group represented more than
twenty-three
towns including, South Orange, East Orange, Orange, West Orange, Bogota,
Jersey
City, Caldwell, Newark, Montclair, Upper Montclair, Irvington, Glen Ridge,
Bloomfield, Westwood, Millburn, Verona, Plainfield, Ridgewood, Hoboken,
Hackettstown and Roselle and two upstate New York towns.

Two of the newcomers with less than one year, Gordon MacDougall and Helen
Penhale would become active in group affairs and later appeared in one of
the
photographs in the Jack Alexander article of the Saturday Evening Post,
March 1,
1941. Both would hold trusted servant positions in the early years of the
group.
Lois’s diary, indicates that she and Bill attended the South Orange
meeting on
February 18, 1940 and then spent the night at the MacDougall’s East Orange
home.
As the membership in New Jersey grew many changes occurred. The New Jersey
Group
actually became a legal business entity with its incorporation in 1941. It
was
then legally know as A.A of New Jersey, Inc. This is of course prior to the
traditions being written and the incorporation of the NJ Group was done to
allow
it to conduct real estate transactions, purchase property, sign leases and
contracts, etc. Activities somewhat incompatible with today’s A.A.
traditions

In 1941, the New Jersey Group began to give birth to its children. The first
group to come out of South Orange was the Bloomfield Group via a tiny
meeting on
Washington Street in Newark. Next came Morristown followed by groups in
Camden,
Englewood and Fairlawn. The South Orange group also began holding a Tuesday
Luncheon meeting at the Howard Johnson’s in East Orange.

The New Jersey Group held an anniversary dinner on March 14, 1942 at the
Hotel
Suburban, 141 South Harrison Street in East Orange, NJ. The featured speaker
was
none other than Bill Wilson and the cost was a very pricey $2.50.

By 1943, there were growing groups in Newark and Montclair, and in 1944 the
Newark/Roseville group in association with dozens of A.A. members from local
groups formed a corporation called the Alanon Association and purchased a
building owned by the Roseville Athletic Association (Roseville A.A.) There
was
no need to change the name on the building! This is the beloved Alanon Club
that
we have today on 7th Avenue in Newark.

Growing A.A. in New Jersey led to the formation of New Jersey Intergroup
which
had its first offices at the Alanon Club. The Intergroup Committee of A.A.
of
New Jersey, Inc became official at a meeting held in May 1945 when the
Articles
of Association were adopted by the delegates representing sixteen A.A.
groups in
New Jersey. The first Intergroup office was some space set aside on the 2nd
floor of the club. It was a small office provided rent free by the club. The
only furnishings were a small desk, a few chairs and a telephone. The
secretary
of Intergroup became a full time employee receiving $35.00 per week. Keeping
with the tradition that groups should be self-supporting, Intergroup
requested a
monthly contribution of $.50 per member per month. Even though many groups
numbered over thirty members, Intergroup received only $5 – $10 monthly
from the
groups.

Intergroup originally held meetings twice a month, then switched to a
monthly
meeting being held on the first Monday of each month. New Groups in New
Jersey
would be asked to join and participate in the monthly meeting. Intergroup
was
responsible for booking the speaker commitments for the various institutions
such as Lyons, Greystone and the Essex County Penal Institute. Intergroup
published a booklet listing the different meetings available in New Jersey.
The
meeting book today still looks very much like the original except of course
in
the number of meetings.

In April of 1948, the Intergroup office was moved to bigger quarters at 944
Broad Street in Newark. Future moves of the office included Clinton Street
and
Maplewood, New Jersey.

In October of 1948, a pamphlet entitled “Facts about Intergroup” was
written
which described the formation of an Intergroup Committee and sold for $.10.
The
draft for this pamphlet was sent to the Alcoholic Foundation and the
response
was favorable that this type of system within A.A. was workable. The
pamphlet
was circulated by the Alcoholic Foundation to different parts of the world
and
served as a guide for the formation of other Central Offices and
Intergroups.
The Intergroup Committee can be considered the original central office
concept
within A.A.*

*Note: The above narrative was taken from a document titled Early History of
Intergroup which was found in the New Jersey Archives. It was written during
the
time period when Intergroup was located in Maplewood. At the time it was
written, the early history of A.A. was not sufficiently documented. The
first
Central Office of A.A. was actually formed in Cleveland in August of 1941 by
Clarence Snyder and Abby Goldrick in response to Cleveland’s explosive
growth.

Sources:
1. The Bible ASV
2. A Narrative Timeline of AA History 2007 – Arthur S.
3. Father Bill Wigmore – Austin Texas
4. Alcoholics Anonymous 2nd Edition - AAWS
5. Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age - AAWS
6. Pass it On - AAWS
7. Not God – Ernest Kurtz
8. Nancy Olsen
9. How it Worked – Mitchell K
10. Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions – AAWS
11. The Varieties of Religious Experience – William James
12. History of the Big Book – Don B.
13. Lois Remembers
14. Various Postings on AA History Lovers Group – Yahoo
15. Various writings of Bill W. AA Grapevine.

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++++Message 5323. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Coffee pots , kitchen floors,
porches, and trees
From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/22/2008 5:20:00 PM

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Recently at Dr Bob's childhood home in St
Johnsbury, Vermont, we were able to get
souvenirs of the house as they were doing
remodeling. I took some wood and a couple of
old blacksmithed nails. A tree that was over
200 years old was being chopped down on the
property and we took some of the tree also.

Years ago the Founders Foundation in Akron
asked for contributions for the preservation
of the Dr. Bob home. Cards with pictures of
Dr Bob and Anne were sent out by Ray G , the
Archivist at Dr. Bob's house. A piece of the
porch was sent out to those who contributed.
Does anyone know how many pieces of wood
were sent out?

YIS
Shakey Mike
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

P.S. A joke amongst the group of us who went
there is that we can sell the wood from the
tree on E-Bay.

P.P.S. I'm glad that Dale didn't ask for a
piece of the toilet. But probably more puking
went on there than the linoleum.

- - - -

In a message dated 10/22/2008 1:20:02 P.M.
Eastern Daylight Time, forrestdalejackson@yahoo.com writes:

I was good to see Dr. Bob's house again. The
last time I was there they were tearing up the
floor in the kitchen to replace it. I asked
them if I could have some of the old linoleum
flooring (cause that's where the old drunks
puked) and they gave me some. Other visitors
to the house at the same time got some pieces.
I hoped they saved some for their archives
because my piece is in the Alabama Archives.

Dale

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++++Message 5324. . . . . . . . . . . . The Tablemate discussions (Detroit
Pamphlet )
From: David Jones . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/23/2008 6:02:00 PM

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Hi Guys,

My name is David, and I'm from the UK, some
of you know me well, others not so well.

I'm attempting to start a new meeting here in
Manchester in the UK, and was thinking of doing
it along the lines of the Tablemate discussions
(the "Detroit Pamphlet" or "Washington D.C.
Pamphlet").

Has anyone had any experience of a meeting of
this type. If so how was it received? What are
the pros/cons? What are you thoughts?

I invite and respect your opinions on this.

God bless

Dave

<jonesd926@aol.com>
(jonesd926 at aol.com)

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++++Message 5326. . . . . . . . . . . . Ralph Pfau: recordings and "Contact
with God" book
From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/23/2008 10:06:00 AM

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I have been trying to find out why SMT's 30
Golden Recordings, were pressed by Artists
Records for SMT Guild at PO Box 313 Indiana-
polis 6, Indiana and sold for $45.00 thru
April 30,1976 and also pressed by RCA in
Feb 1964 for $46.95 to a PO Box 1194
Indianapolis 6, Indiana.

Naturally, the only RCA pressing that I don't
have is entitled "Sense of Humor."

Glenn C.,our esteemed Moderator, spoke at the
NAW (National Archives Workshop) on Father
Ralph Pfau and the Golden Books. His talk
(handout of 7 pages) was a short outline of
Father John Doe's life and work.

[FULL TEXT of Glenn C.'s talk at:
http://hindsfoot.org/pflou1.html
http://hindsfoot.org/PfLou2.html
http://hindsfoot.org/PfLou3.html
Given in Clarksville, Indiana (across the
Ohio River from Louisville, Kentucky) on
September 29, 2001.]

He mentions Father Ralph's Golden books and
his three other books called "Sobriety and
Beyond,"Sobriety Without End" and "Prodigal
Shepherd."

Does anyone know why there were 2 companies
pressing these excellent talks? I recently
read another book by the Father titled
"Contact with God" and not too much is
reported on this book. It was published in
1959 by SMT (Society of Matt Talbot) at the
Box 1194 address. It is 93 pages covered in
blue velvet. Each page is a different story
or topic dealing with Alcoholism/Recovery.

I know at least one of you knows the answer.

ODAAT
Shakey Mike Gwirtz
Hardcore Group of AA

**************

From <glennccc@sbcglobal.net>
(glennccc at sbcglobal.net)

Mike,

Several years ago, Frank Nyikos and I did a
long interview in Indianapolis with one of
Father Ralph's nieces.

The SMT Guild (Society of Matt Talbot) was
simply Father Ralph.

(Just as "Coll-Webb Co., Publishers" was just
Ed Webster, who wrote the Little Red Book, and
his fellow AA member Barry Collins.)

- - - -

From the talk at the NAW:

"Chaplain of the Good Shepherd Convent in
Indianapolis from 1950 till his death in 1967."

"Ralph finally found a truly ideal base of
operations there in Indianapolis, where he
could continue his speaking and writing, and
his spiritual retreats, with a support staff
and no outside distractions. In the Spring of
1950, he moved into the Good Shepherd Convent
in Indianapolis. His ostensible title was
chaplain, which meant that he was supposed to
say masses for the nuns and hear confessions,
but they allowed him to travel as much as he
wanted to. Mother Austin, the mother superior,
assigned three of the Magdalen nuns (who were
cloistered and could not leave the convent
grounds) to become his secretaries, file clerks,
printers, and shipping clerks. She gave him a
three-room suite: one was a large office for
general purposes, another served as the printing
room, and the smallest served as Ralph’s private
office during the day and his bedroom at night."

- - - -

Ralph's niece said that he had some of the
Golden Books printed at St. Meinrad Archabbey
in southern Indiana, but I got the impression
from her that he had used more than one printing
facility over the years. I would presume that
each time he looked at the piles of books,
pamphlets, and phonograph records piled up in
his rooms at the convent, and decided that he
needed to restock one or more items, he looked
around for the cheapest price and the best
deal. But the last of the three nuns who were
his helpers died several years ago, so I am
not sure who we could ask. I have so far been
unable to locate any collection of his papers.
I don't know where they went. The Indianapolis
diocesan archives has only a relatively few
items pertaining to him, and no collections
of correspondence.

- - - -

I am not a collector, so I have never gone
through trying to tabulate these things. But
the pre-Hazelden printings of the Golden Books
which I have in my possession all give the P.O.
Box 313 address, over a wide range of different
dates: 1973, 1974, 1975, and even 1989, 1991,
and 1994.

The largest collection I have seen of Father
Ralph's works is in the archives at the
Indianapolis intergroup office. Perhaps
someone there can give us more information
(including the issue of the two different
post office box numbers).

And in general, I am sure that there are
lots of people who know a whole lot more
than I do about the things you want to
find out.

- - - -

Another of Father Ralph's nieces took over
distributing the books and pamphlets and so
on after his death in 1967, but she eventu-
ally grew too old to handle it, and made
arrangements for Hazelden to take over the
printing and distribution of her uncle's works.

Hazelden has the phonograph recordings still
available, but as tape cassettes instead of
phonograph disks.

- - - -

I saw a copy of "Contact with God" once in
an archivist's collection, and tried to get
him to let me make a photocopy of the book,
but to no avail. I would deeply appreciate
anyone who could obtain a photocopy of it
for me to use in my research. Again, I'm
not a collector. A readable photocopy works
just fine for my purposes.

Indiana Glenn

P.S. Mike, there's a good photo of me, hard
at work moderating this group, at the top
of this webpage, for any who are interested:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indiana_Jones

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++++Message 5327. . . . . . . . . . . . 4th edition authors
From: Patricia . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/26/2008 12:41:00 AM

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Where can I find a list of the authors of
the stories in the 4th edition of Alcoholics
Anonymous?

Patricia

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++++Message 5328. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Oldest AA meeting place:
Morristown, New Jersey
From: Stephen Gentile . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/25/2008 5:28:00 PM

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As per the Church's Vestry the first meeting
of the Morristown group was held on Wednesday
November 27 (the day before Thanksgiving) 1940,
and sometime after, it was moved to Sundays.

Kindest Regards, Stephen A. Gentile

- - - -

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.comFrom: jax760@yahoo.comDate: Wed, 22 Oct
2008
19:20:29 -0700Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Oldest AA meeting place:
Morristown, New Jersey

According to documents in the GSO archives (copies in NJ archives) Dr
Malcolm T.
wrote to the Foundation office on 3/18/41 requesting to start a meeting in
Morristown, New Jersey. Ruth Hock put him in touch with Bill Ruddell. Group
is
listed in June 1941 correspondence from Ruth Hock with 10 members, Mark D.
was
the contact. Meeting would appear to have started sometime between 3/18/41
and
6/41. Best Regards John B- - - ---- On Fri, 10/10/08, Stephen Gentile
<sagentile@hotmail.com> wrote:Church of the Redeemer 26 South Street
Morristown
New Jersey November 1940 as per archived Redeemer Pamphlet from the
church.Sunday night speaker meeting2nd oldest meeting in New Jersey, oldest
in
same location.Kindest Regards, Steve G.

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++++Message 5329. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Bill W.''s royalties from the
Big Book
From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/25/2008 8:54:00 PM

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Hi Bailey -

The source is "AA Comes of Age" pg 195.

- Arthur

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Baileygc23@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2008 8:30 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Bill W.'s royalties from the Big Book

Thanks for that information, Arthur. I thought
Bill W was making money off the book from the
start.

How authentic do you think was the story of
Father Dowling talking Bill W into taking
royalties?

- - - -

In a message dated 10/22/2008 1:42:17 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
ArtSheehan@msn.com writes:

... Bill W assigned all author's
royalties from the Big Book to the Alcoholic
Foundation around September 1938. On April 22,
1940, Bill W and Hank P gave up their stock
in Works Publishing Co with a written
stipulation that Dr Bob and Anne would receive
10% royalties on the Big Book for life. Bill
did not start receiving royalties from Big
Book sales until after the US entered World
War II in December 1941.

Cheers
Arthur

------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

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++++Message 5330. . . . . . . . . . . . Early AA Group Start Dates
From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/23/2008 9:30:00 PM

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Can anyone provide substantiation for group
start dates as follows:

Arkansas: Little Rock (April 19, 1940)
Virginia: Richmond (June 6, 1940)
California: San Francisco (1940)?
Ohio: Dayton (July 8,1940)
Ohio: Toledo (Sept 1940)

Thanks in advance for any help provided.

John B

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++++Message 5331. . . . . . . . . . . . AAâs First Meeting on the West
Coast
From: bruceken@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/25/2008 2:21:00 PM

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AAâs First Meeting on the West Coast
(Adapted from C.N.C.A History, prepared by the CNCA Archives Committee,
September 1984)

The book Alcoholics Anonymous first appeared in April 1939. The handful of
recovered drunks who had put it together in Akron, New York, Cleveland and
Chicago, in an effort to make their program available to every alcoholic who
wanted to get well, still needed a way to distribute it. One of their number
in
New York, a newly sober Irishman by the name of Morgan, said he knew the
the nationally known radio commentator, Gabriel Heatter very well. He
contacted Heatter and sure enough the national broadcast was planned.

The other AAs were delighted, but they were also concerned. The date for
the program was a week away and there was a fear that Morgan, following an
old
pattern, might get drunk the day of the show. That would be a calamity! The
solution? They very gently told Morgan that he would have to be locked up
until the night of the broadcast. But where? Then it was recalled that one
of their more prosperous newcomers had a membership in the Downtown Athletic
Club. As AAâs founder, Bill W. put it, âGrumbling loudly, Morgan was
conducted into captivity. For several days we took turns staying with him
around
the clock, never letting him out of our sight.â

Thus it was that in April of 1939, Gabriel Heatter aired the following
story as part of his show âWe the Peopleâ.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
-----------

HEATTER

The man beside me now has had one of the most gripping and dramatic
experiences Iâve ever heard. Iâm not going to tell you his name. And
when you hear
what he has to say I think you will understand why. But after checking the
facts the Listeners Committee of We the People decided to grant him time
because they feel that if one person is helped by hearing his story, then WE
THE
PEOPLE will have done a real service. All right, sir.

ANONYMOUS

Six months ago I got out of an insane asylum. Iâd been sent there because
I
was drinking myself to death. But the doctors said they could do nothing
for me. And only four years ago I was making $20,000 a year. I was married
to a swell girl and had a young son. But I worked hard and like many of my
friends - I used to drink to relax. Only they knew when to stop. I
didnât.
And pretty soon I drank myself out of my job. I promised my wife Iâd
straighten out. But I couldnât. Finally she took the baby and left me.

The Next year was like a nightmare. I was penniless. I went out on the
streets - panhandled money for liquor. Every time I sobered up - I swore not
to touch another drop.

But if I went a few hours without a drink - Iâd begin to cry like a baby,
and
tremble all over. One day after I left the asylum I met a friend of mine.
He took me to the home of one of his friends. A bunch of men were sitting
around, smoking cigars, telling jokes - having a great time. But I noticed
they werenât drinking. When Tom told me theyâd all been in the same
boat I
was
- I couldnât believe him. But he said. âSee that fellow? Heâs a
doctor.
Drank himself out of his practice. Then he straightened out. Now heâs
head
of a big hospital.â Another big strapping fellow was a grocery clerk.
Another the vice-president of a big corporation. They got together five
years
ago. Called themselves Alcoholics Anonymous. And theyâd worked out a
method
of recovery. One of their most important secrets was helping the other
fellow. Once they began to follow it the method proved successful and helped
others get on their feet - they found they could stay away from liquor.

Gradually - those men helped me back to life. I stopped drinking. Found
courage to face life again. Today Iâve got a job - and Iâm going to
climb
back to success.

Recently we wrote a book called âAlcoholics Anonymousâ. Working on
that
book made me realize how much other people had suffered - how they had gone
through the same thing I did. Thatâs why I wanted to come on this
program.
I
wanted to tell people who are going through that torment - if they sincerely
want to - they can come back. Take their place in society once again.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
--------------------------------------

Among the many listeners to that show across the country was a woman, Mrs.
Gordon Oram, a non-alcoholic, who ran a boarding house at 51 Potomac street
in
San Francisco.

Mrs. Oram had a boarder, a salesman, named Ted C. She liked him, but was
concerned about him. He had been in and out of state hospitals and jails
because of his drinking. He considered himself one of the âworst
alcoholicsâ in
California.

After hearing the Heatter radio program Mrs. Oram wrote to the New York
office of Alcoholics Anonymous and obtained a copy of the book, Alcoholics
Anonymous for Ted. Others in the Bay Area had also heard the program or read
an
article, âAlcoholics and Godâ, in the Liberty Magazine September 30,
1939
issue
and they too had contacted AAâs New York office.

So it happened, that when an AA member from New York, Ray W., came to San
Francisco for a sales training course in November of that year he brought
with
him a list of those who had made inquiries. Among them was Mrs. Oramâs
boarder, Ted.

From his room in the Clift Hotel on Geary Street, Ray called those on his
list. He finally arranged for some of them to meet with him in his room on
Tuesday, November 21, 1939 -- a beautiful evening much like today

It was there that the first meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous on the West
Coast
was held. Aside from Ray and Ted, there were two others present, Don B. and
Dave L. and the meeting lasted about two hours.

Ray then turned his local contacts over to the three local men and the four
of them began to contact the people on the list. Aside from San Francisco,
some of the contacts were from the East Bay, specifically Berkeley, Oakland
and Alameda.
Ray reported back to New York on that first meeting:

The Clift
SAN FRANCISCO

Nov. 23-â39

Works Publishing Co.
17 Williams St.
Newark, N.J.
Miss R. Hock, Secây -

Dear Miss Hock -

You probably think I am an awful piker for not having acknowledged your
letters sooner.
As a matter of fact I have seen quite a number of individuals whose
names you sent - some of them several times. I wont go into detail here
except
to say that I had three (3) of the best âbetsâ - Ted C , Dave L , and
Don
B for several hours with the result that they are going to start a group
here and start in by taking care of all the others who wrote you. Dave had
his
secretary make carbons of the lists you sent and I started them in by having
them make some âdatesâ with some of our prospects over the phone from
my
room.
I talked to them first then turned the phone over to the boys here.
Things look better than I would have hoped for.
You know, I had the misguded idea that I had been busy at other times in
my life, but until I made this trip I didnât know what it was to be busy.
They have been âon my neckâ day and night. You will hear from some of
them
and I will give you all the dope when I get back.

(At this point Ray spent two paragaphs on other matters)

Will be back Tuesday and give you a ring.
Best regards to everyone
Ray W

As Ray mentioned, it had become clear that they would need to form an AA
group in San Francisco, where they all could meet regularly. Mrs. Oram
offered
her kitchen as a meeting place. So shortly before Chistmas, 1939, the first
AA
group, the âSan Francisco Groupâ began meeting in Mrs. Oramâs
kitchen, and
later in various membersâ homes. In October of 1940 they found a more or
less
permanent site for their meetings in the Telegraph Hill Community House at
1736 Stockton Street in North Beach.

Gabriel Heatter had said that if just one person were helped by hearing the
story he aired on the radio, it would be of real service. Well, many more
than one person were helped as a result of that broadcast and what followed
it.
Today, 60 years after that first meeting, there are over 600 AA groups in
San
Francisco alone, many thousands more in California and other parts of the
west.

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++++Message 5332. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA in South Orange, New Jersey
(1 of 3)
From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/26/2008 8:35:00 AM

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The following was updated in the posted
document.

In the fall of 1935, a little band of
recovering drunks had formed and began
attending Oxford Group meetings in Brooklyn
at Bill & Lois's house at 182 Clinton
Street. These meetings included Bill and
his wife Lois, Hank and his wife Kathleen,
and John Mayo. Hank (The Unbeliever), and
Fitz (Our Southern Friend) had their stories
included in the first edition of the Big
Book. Pass it On indicates that there were
other attendees at these Tuesday night
meetings including Ebby Thatcher who had
moved in with the Wilson's, Shep Cornell,
Freddie B (The Chemistry Professor) Brooke
B. (from Calvary House) and Alec (The Finn)
who had also moved in with the Wilson's.

In later years, Jerseyites Bill Ruddell and
his wife Kathleen, Herb Debevoise and his wife
Margaret from South Orange and Ernest McKenzie
from Westwood would also attend the Tuesday
night meetings. At the close of 1935, there
were two growing bands of sober alcoholics
within the Oxford Groups. The Akron contingent
consisting of Dr. Bob, Bill Dotson and third
recruit named Phil Smith. The New York
contingent consisted of Bill Wilson, Hank
Parkhurst and Fitz Mayo. Other members in both
contingents had not yet achieved sobriety or
were continuously slipping.

- - - -

>
> From "John Barton" <jax760@...>
> (jax760 at yahoo.com)
>
> AA in South Orange, New Jersey (1 of 3)
>
> The History of Alcoholism and Alcoholics Anonymous
> in South Orange, New Jersey
>
> Section 1 (of 3)

In the fall of 1935, a little band of recovering drunks had formed
and began attending Oxford Group meetings in Brooklyn at Bill &
Lois's house at 182 Clinton Street. These meetings included Bill and
his wife Lois, Hank and his wife Kathleen, Fitz Mayo, Bill R. and his
wife Kathleen, and two other New Jerseyites, Herb Debevoise and his
wife Margaret from South Orange and Ernest McKenzie from Westwood.
Hank (The Unbeliever) and Fitz (Our Southern Friend) had their
stories included in the first edition of the Big Book. Pass it On
indicates that there were other attendees at these Tuesday night
meetings including Ebby Thatcher who had moved in with the Wilson's,
Shep Cornell, Freddie B (The Chemistry Professor) Brooke B. (from
Calvary House) and Alec who had also moved in with the Wilson's.

At the close of 1935, there were two growing bands of sober
alcoholics within the Oxford Groups. The Akron contingent consisting
of Dr. Bob, Bill Dotson and third recruit named Phil Smith. The New
York contingent consisted of Bill Wilson, Hank Parkhurst and Fitz
Mayo. Other members in both contingents had not yet achieved sobriety
or were continuously slipping.

At the close of 1935 there were three New Jersey members of A.A.,
Hank Parkhurst of Teaneck, Herb Debevoise of South Orange, and Ernest
McKenzie of Westwood.

>

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++++Message 5333. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: 4th edition authors
From: Laurence Holbrok . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/26/2008 10:08:00 PM

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The West Baltimore Group has a list of
biographies of Big Book story authors:
<http://www.a-1associates.com/westbalto/HISTORY_PAGE/Authors.htm>

SIlkworth.net has a pretty decent listing:
http://silkworth.net/aabiography/storyauthors.html

AA Bibliography has another:
http://www.aabibliography.com/big_book_stories1.html

Barefoot's world has a historical list of
folks mentioned in the BB that's real
interesting:
http://www.barefootsworld.net/aapeople.html

The West Baltimore Group has a similar list:
http://www.a-1associates.com/westbalto/PEOPLES%20&%20PLACES/NamesAAhist.htm

The West Baltimore Group also has a list of who what based on the 3rd
edition:
http://www.a-1associates.com/westbalto/HISTORY_PAGE/BBWhoWhat.htm

Larry Holbrook
Email@LaurenceHolbrook.com
(410) 802-3099

- - - -

From: "rick tompkins" <ricktompkins@comcast.net>
(ricktompkins at comcast.net)

It does not disappoint me that anonymity is
protected for the authors of the new personal
stories inserted in the 4th Edition. A few
have taken to the Speaker Circuit for AA
conference weekends, and usually simply state
their first name and last name initial.

The names and biographies of authors (now
deceased) whose stories appeared in earlier
editions are available in many places (see
above).

But the new authors whose stories were included
in the Fourth Edition don't qualify, and they
just might object to anyone breaking their
anonymity.

Remember, it's AA principles that are more
important than AA personalities.

Rick, Illinois

- - - -

Thanks also to:

DOROTHY BENSON <dd11983@yahoo.com>

"jm48301" <jm48301@aol.com>
James Bliss <james.bliss@comcast.net>

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++++Message 5334. . . . . . . . . . . . This I Know
From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/27/2008 8:07:00 AM

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This I Know

I know not by what methods rare,
But this I know - God answers prayer.
I know that He has given His Word,
Which tells me prayer is always heard -
That will be amswered, soon or late,
And so I pray and calmly wait.

I know not if the blessing sought,
Will come in just the way I thought -
But leave my prayers with Him alone,
Whose Will is wiser than my own -
Assured that He will grant my quest,
Or send some answer far more blest.

- - - -

Eddie Cushing
A very early member of the "Hole-In-The-Ground",
one of the first AA groups in Los Angeles,
California. He studied for the priesthood,
was thrown out of the seminary, and became a
comedian. Over the years he wrote a lot of
AA poetry.

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++++Message 5336. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Early AA Group Start Dates
From: Dolores . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/29/2008 10:18:00 AM

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Hi,

I believe it would be of interest to know
that the first AA group in Europe -IRELAND-
was started in 1946, followed by London in
1947 and then on the Continent in 1948
in Christ Church in Frankfurt, Germany,
Munich, Germany and Bremen Germany.

The first AA meeting held in Paris France
was in 1948. Bill and Lois visited the group
on their visit to Europe in 1950.

I thought you might be interested to hear
about early meetings in Europe.

Yours in AA,
Dolores CER Archives

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++++Message 5337. . . . . . . . . . . . 1st & 2nd edit. Big Book cover font
From: dan . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/29/2008 12:26:00 PM

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Does anybody know the exact font name of the
font used on the Cover and Dust cover jackets
on the 1st & 2nd Edition Big Book?

The closest I could get was Apricot Ligature 1
but there were small differences.

Thanks for any help.

Dan R

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++++Message 5338. . . . . . . . . . . . Big Book Sales
From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/30/2008 10:44:00 AM

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Good morning. I have heard for many years
now that the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous
is the second most sold book of all time,
second only to the Bible. If this was true,
I would think that this status may have
changed by now because of the popularity of
the Harry Potter books & mega-selling authors
like Eckhart Tolle. Does anyone have any
statistical proof or articles about whether
it was true that the Big Book was or is the
second most sold book of all time? Thanks
& God bless.

Just Love,
Barefoot Bill

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++++Message 5339. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA addresses for Google Earth
search
From: Pete . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/30/2008 10:23:00 PM

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Just a thought I've been rolling around for
a while. Seems to me a number of us interested
in the history and historical sites of AA
would enjoy having a Google Earth map with
all the significant AA places marked and
properly identified for AA interest. Then
when any of us are traveling we could be aware
of sites to perhaps visit on our trips.

I made the trip to East Dorset and then to
Stepping Stones and 182 Clinton St. and the
AA offices in New York but missed other
points I wished I had know about and included
in that trip. The tombstone in London,
Jung's practice site, etc. in Europe and
many other places could keep others interested
in more travel to eyeball the actual places
so intertwined in our history.

Any such web site started or planned?

Pete K.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 5340. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Big Book Sales
From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/1/2008 5:52:00 PM

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Bill - do a Google search on the string "all
time best-selling books."

Wikipedia, among others, has an interesting
list but the Big Book has been omitted. I
can't vouch for the accuracy of the Wikipedia
numbers stated but in relative order the
books listed are probably correct.

From information derived from all the final
General Service Conference reports from 1951
to 2008, there were approximately 229,700
Big Book distributed prior to 1952 and a
total of approximately 28,376,000 Big Books
distributed from 1935 through 2007. The term
"distributed" is used by GSO since some
portion of the totals are given away as
opposed to being sold.

So the Big Book is way down the list of
all-time bestsellers - roughly somewhere
between the 45th to 50th all time best seller.
The Big Book did not reach the 1 million
mark until 1973.

From the Wikipedia numbers it also looks like
Chairman Mao (of the People's Republic of
China) is the all-time bestselling author.
With a captive audience (quite literally) of
a few billion, it looks like no one will ever
come close to beating him (3 titles with an
estimate of 1 to 6.5 billion). His most
popular title is oddly enough called "The
Little Red Book" (Quotations of Chairman Mao).

Cheers
Arthur

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bill Lash
Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 9:45 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Big Book Sales

Good morning. I have heard for many years
now that the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous
is the second most sold book of all time,
second only to the Bible. If this was true,
I would think that this status may have
changed by now because of the popularity of
the Harry Potter books & mega-selling authors
like Eckhart Tolle. Does anyone have any
statistical proof or articles about whether
it was true that the Big Book was or is the
second most sold book of all time? Thanks
& God bless.

Just Love,
Barefoot Bill

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++++Message 5341. . . . . . . . . . . . Harper 12x12s
From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/2/2008 9:46:00 AM

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What were the printing runs for the Harper
12x12s?

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

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++++Message 5342. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Big Book Sales
From: george cleveland . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/3/2008 12:46:00 PM

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This is such a great category of question.
I immediately knew it probably couldn't be
and my first thought was Mao's Little Red
Book--not OURS!!!

I realize Wikipedia is to be taken with a
grain of salt, but here is their take on the
subject:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_books

George

- - - -

Bill Lash <barefootbill@optonline.net> wrote:

Good morning. I have heard for many years
now that the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous
is the second most sold book of all time,
second only to the Bible. If this was true,
I would think that this status may have
changed by now because of the popularity of
the Harry Potter books & mega-selling authors
like Eckhart Tolle. Does anyone have any
statistical proof or articles about whether
it was true that the Big Book was or is the
second most sold book of all time? Thanks
& God bless.

Just Love,
Barefoot Bill

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++++Message 5343. . . . . . . . . . . . The First 25 AA Groups
From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/2/2008 5:42:00 PM

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Below is a recent effort that I am posting
so the members of this forum can contribute
to it. I would appreciate any additions or
subtractions from this list as long as they
can be substantiated reasonably well.

TIMELINE OF THE FIRST 25 A.A. GROUPS

by the Big Book Study Group
of South Orange, New Jersey

1. Ohio: Akron (June/July 1935)
2. New York City (Fall of 1935)
3. Ohio: Cleveland - Abby G. Group (May 11,
1939)
4. New Jersey: The New Jersey Group (May 14,
1939)
5. Connecticut: Greenwich Blythewood Sanitarium
(June 1939)
6. Illinois: Chicago (September 13, 1939)
7. Ohio: Cleveland – Borton Group (November
16, 1939)
8. Ohio: Cleveland – Orchard Grove (November
20, 1939)
9. Washington, D.C. (December 1939)
10. California: San Francisco (December 1939)
11. California: Los Angeles (December 19, 1939)
12. New York: Orangeberg - Rockland State
Hospital (December 1939)
13. Michigan: Detroit (December 1939)
14. Pennsylvania: Philadelphia (February 13,
1940)
15. Texas: Houston (March 15, 1940)
16. Arkansas: Little Rock (April 19, 1940)
17. Indiana: Evansville (April 23, 1940)
18. Ohio: Cleveland – West 50th Street Group
(May 8, 1940)
19. Virginia: Richmond (June 6, 1940)
20. Maryland: Baltimore (June 16, 1940)
21. Ohio: Dayton (July 8, 1940)
22. Ohio: Cleveland – Berea (August 27, 1940)
23. Ohio: Cleveland – Westlake (September 20,
1940)
24. Ohio: Toledo (September 1940)
25. Ohio: Youngstown (September 1940)

Below is a comparison of the two lists that
exist detailing what AA considered to be the
first locations where meetings were being held
or "groups" established. From this, we have
worked to establish a timeline of the first
25 AA groups.
____________________

In an October 1, 1940 report
to the Trustees, Bill W.
estimated the A.A.
membership as follows:

Akron, Ohio 200
Jackson, Mich. 15
Baltimore, Md 12
Little Rock, Ark. 27
Camden, NJ. 5
Los Angeles, Cal. 100
Chicago, Ill. 100
New York City 150
Cleveland, Ohio 450
Philadelphia, Pa 75
Coldwater, Mich. 8
Richmond, Va. 20
Dayton, Ohio 6
San Francisco, Cal. 15
Detroit, Mich. 30
Toledo, Ohio 6
Evansville, Ind. 24
Washington DC 100
Greenwich, Conn. 25
Waunakee, Wis. 20
Houston, Texas 30
Youngstown, Ohio 15

22 Cities 1433 Total
____________________

The following is a list of communities
where A.A. is well established and
weekly meetings are held: (11/14/1940)
A.A Bulletin # 1

Akron, Ohio
Jackson, Michigan
Baltimore, MD
Little Rock, Arkansas
(Camden, NJ, include with Philadelphia)
Los Angeles, Calif.
Chicago, Illinois
New York City (and South Orange, NJ)
Cleveland, Ohio
Philadelphia, PA.
Coldwater, Michigan
Richmond, VA.
Dayton, Ohio
San Francisco, Calif
Detroit, Michigan
Toledo, Ohio
Evansville, Indiana
Washington, D.C.
Greenwich, Conn.
Waunakee, Wisconsin
Houston, Texas
Youngstown, Ohio
____________________

Please note that Wisconsin & Coldwater remain
unsubstantiated by research. Jackson Group
# 1 disbanded according to Area 33 History
site.

Notes related to the formation of the groups.

A.A. Group # 1 Akron, Ohio
"The spark that was to flare into the first
A.A. group was struck at Akron, Ohio in June
1935, during a talk between a New York
stockbroker and an Akron physician."
(AABB 2nd Edition, p.xv)

Hence the two men set to work almost franti-
cally upon alcoholics arriving in the ward
of the Akron City Hospital. Their very first
case, a desperate one, recovered immediately
and became A.A. number three." (AABB 2nd
Edition, p.xvii)

This refers to Bill's and Dr. Bob's first
visit to A.A. Number Three. See the Pioneer
Section. This resulted in A.A.'s first group,
at Akron, Ohio, in 1935. (AABB 2nd Edition
p.156)

"Before our visit was over, Bill suddenly
turned to his wife and said, "Go fetch my
clothes, dear. We're going to get up and get
out of here." Bill D. walked out of that
hospital a free man never to drink again.
A.A.'s Number One Group dates from that
very day." - Bill W.(AAB 2nd Edition p.189)

"He came out of the hospital on the Fourth
of July, 1935." (DBGO p.85)

Author's Comments: If you read the Original
Manuscript of the book Alcoholics Anonymous,
it becomes abundantly clear in Chapter 11,
"A Vision for You" that the "Fellowship" of
Alcoholics Anonymous was alive and growing in
January of 1939.

"Then, in this eastern city there are informal
meetings such as we have described to you,
where you may see thirty or forty, there are
the same fast friendships, there is the same
helpfulness to one another as you find among
our western friends. There is a good bit of
travel between East and West and we foresee
a great increase in this helpful interchange.
Some day we hope that every alcoholic who
journeys will find a Fellowship of Alcoholics
Anonymous at his destination. To some extent
this is already true." (BBOM p.130)

The first 100, obviously considered themselves
part of the A.A. fellowship whether or not
they were specifically calling their "informal
meetings" A.A., OG, Drunk Squadrons, etc. We
think any debates whether the eastern and
western cities mentioned are or are not the
first "A.A." groups are pointless. Bill Wilson
and Bob Smith obviously considered their
respective groups to be numberss 1 & 2 and
that should set the standard by which we apply
our analysis.

The anniversary date for Akron Group # 1 seems
questionable. Bill however, tagged it as the
day that Bill Dotson was discharged from the
hospital. DBGO says this was July 4, 1935.

A.A. Group # 2 Brooklyn, New York
A second small group promptly took shape at
New York… (AABB 2nd Edition, p.xvii)

In the fall of 1935, Bill and Lois began to
hold weekly meetings in their home on Clinton
Street. (PIO p.162)

"…At this juncture, the meeting -- the first
meeting of the Manhattan Group, which really
took place in Brooklyn -- stopped, and it
stopped for a very good reason. That was that
the landlord set Lois and me out into the
street, and we didn't even have money to move
our stuff into storage. Even that and the
moving van -- that was done on the cuff. Well,
it was then the spring of 1939. Temporarily,
the Manhattan Group moved to Jersey. It
hadn't got to Manhattan yet .... Meanwhile,
the Manhattan Group moved to Manhattan for
the first time. The folks over here started
a meeting in Bert T.'s tailor shop. Good old
Bert is the guy who hocked his then-failing
business to save the book Alcoholics Anonymous
in 1939. In the fall, he still had the shop,
and we began to hold meetings there. Little
by little, things began to grow. We went from
there to a room in Steinway Hall, and we felt
we were in very classic and good company that
gave us an aura of respectability. Finally,
some of the boys -- notably Bert and Horace --
said, "A.A. should have a home. We really
ought to have a club." And so the old 24th
Street Club, which had belonged to the artists
and illustrators and before that was a barn
going back to Revolutionary times, was taken
over. I think Bert and Horace signed the first
lease."("The Road from the Table on Clinton
Street": Bill Wilson's Talk to the Manhattan
Group, NYC, 1955)

Author's Comments: This group was actually what
this writer terms "The Bill & Lois Wilson Road
Show." After being evicted from 182 Clinton
Street the New York contingent met everywhere
and anywhere over the next several months;
including Montclair, NJ, South Orange, NJ,
Flatbush in Brooklyn, Bert Taylor's Shop, Bert
Taylor's Loft, an apartment on West 72nd Street,
Blythewood, Rockland State Hospital, Steinway
Hall and finally the 24th Street Clubhouse.
(See PIO p.216-217) Based on Lois's comments,
Pass it On describes these as "At least a
dozen A.A. groups had evolved in the New York
Metropolitan area…" Unfortunately, this passage
is misleading. We can see that this was
actually a dozen different meeting locations
for the same group of 30 – 40 alcoholics. This
is clarified in Bill's talk to the Manhattan
Group in 1955. The previous paragraph in Pass
it On explains it better when it says: "When
they lived at Clinton Street, A.A. meetings
had been held there. A.A. followed Bill and
Lois wherever they went."

The New Jersey "contingent" split off from the
New York Group and remained in New Jersey when
the Montclair meeting ended in mid June of '39.
The NY contingent crossed the river back to
Manhattan and the Jerseyites began meeting in
South Orange at the home of Herb Debevoise
continuing what had been started in Montclair.

A.A. Group # 3 Cleveland, Ohio
On May 11, 1939, one month after the book had
been published, a meeting was held. It was a
meeting of "Alcoholics Anonymous." It was
a meeting held by, and for alcoholics and
their families only. Historian Mary C. Darrah
wrote:

"In the years 1935-1939, the Oxford meetings
provided a group experience for the early
alcoholics. A.A. did not meet as a separate
group officially named Alcoholics Anonymous
until May 1939 at the home of Abby G. in
Cleveland." (HIW p.141)

A.A. Group # 4 The New Jersey Group
Lois's diary entry for May 14, 1939 indicates
they went to the meeting at the Parkhurst's.
(PIO p.217)

AACOA p.11, "We attended New Jersey's first
AA meeting, held in the summer of 1939, at the
Upper Montclair home of Henry P…" (AACOA p.11)

A.A. Group # 5 Greenwich Connecticut
Marty pioneered a group in Greenwich so early
in 1939 that some folks now think this one
should carry the rating of A.A.s Group Number
Three. Backed by Dr. Harry and Mrs. Wylie,
owner of Blythewood, the first meetings were
held on the Sanitarium's grounds. (AACOA p.18-19)

In the summer of 1939 our New York member
Marty had sponsored a prospect named Nona.
(AACOA p.181)

"While Marty and Grenny were patients at
Blythewood Sanitarium in Greenwich, Connecticut,
the two of them together with Bill persuaded
Mrs. Wylie, the owner to let them hold meetings
there. (PIO p.216)

The first year was the hardest. I had plenty
of prospects but few results. All that long
hot summer I went into New York once a week
to the meeting, hoping a woman might appear,
find me, know that she was not alone and
unique, and stay .... Finally, in October,
came Nona, whom I had met when I entered the
sanitarium nearly two years before. She came
in wholeheartedly, a quiet girl not wanting to
be noticed, but she was there. Written by
Marty Mann - (For Men Only? Anonymous Grapevine
– June 1960)

Author's Comments: It is questionable whether
or not this was actually a "group" and not
just a meeting. The date is questionable as
well. Marty indicates in her GV article that
she was on the road attending meetings that
long hot summer; not exactly substantiating a
group resident in Greenwich at the time. In
AACOA Bill calls this meeting "a group" so who
are we to dispute that. This one may be subject
to further discussion.

A.A Group # 6 Chicago, Illinois
According to member list index cards kept by
the Chicago group, Sylvia's date of sobriety
was September 13, 1939 (www.barefootsworld.net,
Sylvia K.)

"He wrote to New York in September 1939 that
the A.A.s in Chicago were organizing a group
and would have regular meetings." (DBGO p.181)
Referring to a letter written by Earl T.

A.A. Group # 7 Cleveland, Ohio - Borton
Group Number Two in Cleveland was called the
Borton Group. This group met at the home of
T. E. Borton, a non-alcoholic friend of the
A.A. fellowship. The meeting was located at
2427 Roxboro Road in Cleveland. Its first
meeting was held on Thursday, November 16,
1939. (HIW p.150)

A.A. Group # 8 Cleveland, Ohio – Orchard Grove
Almost immediately thereafter, in another show
of what Clarence sarcastically called A.A.
"unity," they split again on November 20th.
Out of the Borton group was born the Orchard
Grove Group. The Orchard Group met on Monday
nights at 15909 Detroit Avenue. The Orchard
Group later changed its name to the Lakewood
Group. (HIW p.151-152)

A.A. Group # 9 Washington D.C.
At first he (Fitz) met with minimal success,
but by the fall of 1939 the nucleus of a small
group had been established in Washington. He
had been long a loner in Washington, but Fitz
was eventually joined by Hardin C. and
Bill A.2 and was also joined by Florence
Rankin.

Note 2. When Bill Wilson died in 1971, Donald
E. Graham, now the publisher of The Washington
Post, but then a young man learning the family
business from the ground up, and working as
a staff writer, interviewed me. Graham's story
says in part: "Bill A., an Arlington business-
man, recalled that in December 1939, when
Alcoholics Anonymous was a small, little-known
group, he went to New York to meet Mr. Wilson.
The next month Mr. Wilson helped start an AA
chapter here, the fourth in the country."

Sources:
"Alcoholics Anonymous", "Pass It On",
"Bill W." by Francis Hartigan, "History of
AA in Maryland" from the website of the West
Baltimore AA Group, private communications
from Lee C. Compiled by Nancy O.

Author's Comments: Based on the comments of
Bill A. this group would be December of 1939.
Arrival of Ned F. supports this. However,
actual start of Group may have been January
of 1940. See PIO p.257 N2 Washington Intergroup
History lists date as October 28, 1939 but this
is in variance with PIO. In lieu of discrepancy
we list this as the first group of December
1939.

A.A Group # 10 San Francisco, California
So it happened, that when an AA member from
New York, Ray W., came to San Francisco for a
sales training course in November of that year
he brought with him a list of those who had
made inquiries. Among them was Mrs. Oram's
boarder, Ted.

From his room in the Clift Hotel on
Geary Street, Ray called those on his list.
He finally arranged for some of them to meet
with him in his room on Tuesday, November 21,
1939.

It was there that the first meeting of Alco-
holics Anonymous on the West Coast was held.
Aside from Ray and Ted, there were two others
present, Don B. and Dave L. and the meeting
lasted about two hours.

As Ray mentioned, it had become clear that
they would need to form an AA group in San
Francisco, where they all could meet regularly.
Mrs. Oram offered her kitchen as a meeting
place. So shortly before Christmas, 1939,
the first AA group, the "San Francisco Group"
began meeting in Mrs. Oram's kitchen, and
later in various members' homes. In October
of 1940 they found a more or less permanent
site for their meetings in the Telegraph Hill
Community House at 1736 Stockton Street in
North Beach. (www.aasf.org) AA's First Meeting
on the West Coast(Adapted from C.N.C.A History,
prepared by the CNCA Archives Committee,
September 1984)

A.A. Group # 11 Los Angeles, California
She and Chuck came to Los Angeles just in
time to attend the first so-called "home"
meetings. This particular gathering was held
at Kaye's place on Benecia Avenue on December
19, 1939. It included Kaye and Johnny, Lee
and Chuck and a number of prospects. (ACOAA
p.92)

A.A. Group # 12 Rockland State Hospital, NY
First A.A. Group in mental institution,
Rockland State Hospital, NY (AACOA p.viii)

A.A. Group # 13 Detroit, Michigan
Archie T. went to Akron and spent ten and
one-half months living with Dr. Bob S. and
his wife. He says he got his AA direct from
one of the founders. Archie read Emmet Fox's
Sermon on the Mount, and he said it changed
his life.

In December, 1939, the first meeting of AA in
Michigan was held in Arch T.'s room on Merrick
Avenue in the Art Center in Detroit. Present,
besides Archie, were Mike E., who became member
#2 in Michigan, another alcoholic, and Sara
Klein, a non-alcoholic. (Copyright© 1999-2006
Alcoholics Anonymous General Services of
Southeast Michigan) http://www.aa-semi.org/

A.A. Group # 14 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
On February 13, 1940, with about two years of
sobriety, Jim and Rosa moved to the Philadelphia
area and started a group there.
(www.barefootsworld.net/aaburwell.html)

A.A. Group # 15 Houston, Texas
The first Houston A.A. meeting was held March
15, 1940, in a room in the YWCA Bldg. The
group continued to meet on Tuesdays with as
many as 25 attending -- but often a different
25 each time! Ed H. and Roy Y. tried to
educate ministers and doctors without much
success until they were referred to Dr. David
Wade at Galveston State Hospital. Dr. Wade was
to remain a good friend of A.A. (Bob P.
Unpublished AA History Manuscript)

A.A Group # 16 Little Rock, Arkansas
The first meeting of the three men - Sterling
C, Harlan N, and Bud G - as an AA group was
in late May 1940 in the insurance agency
office in the Wallace Bldg, Markham and Main
Streets. The group ran ads in the newspaper
as they continued to meet, and began to grow.
(Bob P. Unpublished AA History Manuscript)

A.A. Group # 17 Evansville, Indiana
J. D. Holmes and the First A.A. Group in
Indiana: Evansville, April 23, 1940. The man
who started A.A. in Indiana was a man named
James D. "J. D." Holmes. He was one of the
original Akron A.A. group. He got sober in
September 1936: if we count Bill W. and
Dr. Bob as numbers one and two, J. D. was
A.A. number ten. On May 30, 1938, he and his
wife Rhoda moved to Evansville, Indiana, which
is in the extreme southwestern part of the
state, on the banks of the Ohio River. He was
unable to get any other alcoholics in Evansville
to join him until the Big Book was published
in 1939. Dr. Bob sent him a copy of the Big
Book the minute it came off the press, and
with this new aid, he was able to reach out
to a local surgeon, Dr. Joe Welborn, after
Dr. Joe's drinking finally landed him in the
county jail in April of 1940. Dr. Joe brought
in other alcoholics who were patients of his,
and the first A.A. group in Indiana met on
Tuesday evening, April 23, 1940, in J. D.
and Rhoda's home at 420 S. Denby St. in
Evansville. (http://hindsfoot.org/nfirst.html)

A.A. Group # 18 Cleveland, Ohio
- West 50th Street
On May 1, 1940 the West 50th Street Group broke
away from the Orchard Grove Group taking four
members with them. The West 50th Street Group
had their first meeting on May 8th. By the end
of its first year, that group had eighty-seven
members. They met at 3241 West 50th Street on
Wednesday evenings. Its name was later changed
to the Brooklyn Group. (HIW p.169)

A.A. Group # 19 Richmond, Virginia
In the spring of 1940, Ted C from Richmond,
Virginia, was undergoing treatment at Rockland
State Hospital in New York - "the first
[hospital in the East) to enter into full
scale cooperation with AA." So the New York
office of AA, learning that Ted C was
returning to Richmond with a new business
connection, asked him to serve as the AA
contact there. One of the first referrals was
McChee B, who was helped by Ted. The two men
now hoped to start a group. The first AA
meeting in Virginia was held June 6, 1940 at
McChee's apartment with 12 present. However,
as Bill W later recalled, they "believed in
getting away from their wives and drinking
only beer." It didn't work, and the group
fell apart almost immediately. (Bob P. AA
History Manuscript)

Authors Comments: This group disbanded and
re-started the following year. We carry this
group here because it was listed in A.A.
Bulletin # 1, 11/14/1940, as an active
location.

A.A Group # 20 Baltimore Maryland
Jimmy (Burwell) was also responsible, later,
for the start of A.A. in Baltimore. The
second Baltimore meeting, held in June of
1940, was attended by six people; (PIO 258N)

On June 16, 1940, the two Jims met with three
other men at Ridgely's home on St. Paul Street.
Several days later, Burwell received a letter
in Philadelphia from a Baltimore lawyer who
wanted to help his alcoholic brother and
offered his office in the Munsey Building on
Fayette Street as a meeting place. On June 22,
1940, the six men held the second Baltimore AA
meeting in that office. (Nancy Olson- History
of AA in Maryland)

A.A. Group #21 Dayton, Ohio
Authors Comments: See note for Group # 25.
Trying to substantiate this date for Dayton.

A.A. Group # 22 Cleveland, Ohio – Berea Group
On August 27th, the Berea Group formed and met
at the home of Bob J. It had nine members and
at the end of its first year, had grown to
thirty members. On September 3rd, the group
moved from the home of Bob J. to St. Thomas
Episcopal Church Parish Hall in Berea. (HIWp.170)

A.A. Group # 23 Cleveland, Ohio – Westlake Group
On September 20th the Westlake Group branched
off from the Orchard Grove Group and began
meeting at the Hotel Westlake. When the
Westlake Group left Orchard Grove, it took
thirty members with it. The group later became
the Lake Shore Group. (HIW p.170)

A.A. Group # 24 Toledo, Ohio
Duke never did pick up another drink. A few
months later, in September of 1940, he and
the other Toledo members started their own
group. (DBGO p.254)

A.A Group # 25 Youngstown, Ohio
By September of 1940, Cleveland was reporting
to Bill in New York that, in addition to its
own six meetings and 400 – 500 members, Ohio
had meetings in Akron, Toledo, Youngstown,
Dayton, Raveena, Wooster, and Canton.
(DBGO p.262)

Authors Comments: "Meetings" do not constitute
"groups". We include Youngstown but not
Raveena, Wooster and Canton in accordance with
A.A. Bulletin # 1 November 14, 1940.

- - - -

Notes on Groups not listed but included in the
November 14, 1940 AA Bulletin

Jackson, Michigan – Group start date
unsubstantiated and group disbanded.

Then we heard from Tom B.:
Bud S. the electrician told me that Jackson
Group #1 folded after they lost their meeting
place when their landlord padlocked the hall.
The present Jackson Group, officially
registered in New York as Jackson Group #2,
held its first meeting on the first Sunday of
September 1945. Where the meeting was held
has been forgotten but the date was confirmed
by a copy of the minutes of business meetings
from 1950, 1951 and 1952 that I got from Bud C.
whose late brother-in-law had been group
secretary in those years. Barb S. borrowed the
notebooks to read over, and lost them all in
moving to Texas and then back to Jackson. Tom
says that Bud S. also told him that Al C. had
a coffee shop in the Otsego Hotel in the early
40's. One night each week, Al closed early so
that AA could meet in the coffee shop.
Copyright© 2006 The Jackson Group
http://www.aa-semi.org/

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++++Message 5344. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Harper 12x12s
From: bikergaryg@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/4/2008 8:10:00 AM

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What were the printing runs for the Harper
12x12s?

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

From: "JOHN WIKELIUS" <nov85@graceba.net>
Date: Tue Nov 4, 2008 8:51 pm
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Harper 12x12s justjohn1431946
Offline
Send Message
Edit Membership

1st printing D-C April 1953
2nd B-K February 1960
3rd Do not know the date- been asking. Someone know the information on
this.

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++++Message 5345. . . . . . . . . . . . from Works Publishing Co.
From: rick tompkins . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/6/2008 9:42:00 PM

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(typed letter to Solway, N.J., 25 miles northeast of Philadelphia,
Pennsylvania; it's probably still a small crossroads town.)

_____

WORKS PUBLISHING CO.

Church Street Annex, Post Office Box 657

New York City

May 4, 1939

Dear Sir:

Thank you for your inquiry regarding our book "Alcoholics
Anonymous".

The story behind this book is briefly as follows:

Over 150 chronic alcoholics have rehabilitated themselves from what

They have come to regard as an illness. These men and women, who had be-

lieved themselves weak-willed or victims of a habit, realized that society

does not shun a diabetic.doesn't blame a cripple.doesn't scorn a blind

man.and from that standpoint they began.

Approximately five years ago, a man pronounced incurably
alcoholic

began desperately to seek an answer. Through a lucky circumstance he
stumbled

upon a solution. He tried to pass it along to other chronic alcoholics, and

after several failures, he "clicked" with a man. He continued his efforts,
in

spite of other failures, until a third "man" got it. After a year of what

might be called cutting and fitting a pattern, there were three men who had

recovered. The next year added ten to the first three. The third year found

the thirteen increased to over thirty with a rising percentage of recoveries

as they developed a procedure. At the end of the fourth year over 150
chronic

alcoholics were doing no drinking whatsoever. Today, in the fifth year, the

number is increasing rapidly, with over fifty percent success of those ap-

proached.

These people, who dub themselves Alcoholics Anonymous, try
to keep

their anonymity because the could not carry on the business of earning

a living if presented with an overwhelming flood of appeals for personal

assistance.

However, they have written a book called "alcoholics
Anonymous" in

which they give a precise picture of their procedure. The book is published

by the Works Publishing Company, organized and financed mostly by small sub-

scriptions from the member themselves. The profits from the book are being

used at present to extend the work and to liquidate indebtedness incurred in

bringing the work to its present status.

The men concerned are not prohibitionists.however, they know
that

they, and many others like them, are unable to take so much as one drink

without disastrous results. Neither do they claim any mystic healing
methods.

We have gone into detail because, having suffered the
torments of the

malady of alcoholism ourselves, the extension of this work is of paramount

importance. The book is a sound starting point for the alcoholic who sin-

cerely wants to recover. Furthermore, the book is helpful to the family and

those in contact with the alcoholic, for it is necessary that they also
under-

stand the problem. The story of one man who rehabilitated himself with the

aid of the book alone is included in the volume "Alcoholics Anonymous."

Sincerely,

(signature)
R. Miller

RH.

_____

Hi group,

Placed in the AA Archives at the General Service Office long ago

and used with permission of the writer's surviving relative,

"Miller" is the maiden name of our Fellowship's pioneer
secretary, Ruth Hock. In her seven years time with

Honor Dealers, Works Publishing, and the Alcoholic Foundation

she typed thousands of outreach replies like this one,

with some using the 'Miller' signature.

Compound this with the 2.4 million Big Books distributed since

April 1939, her early efforts gave AA its best start to our growth

of geometric proportions!

Rick, Illinois

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 5346. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: from Works Publishing Co.
From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/7/2008 4:55:00 PM

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This answers a lot of questions:

AACOA has the post office box moving in 1940.
But according to this letter it moved in 1939.
This explains Hank's meltdown in June of 39
and his subsequent relapse in September of 39.

Is the date in Pass it On for the office move
still correct as 3/16/1940? How was this
established?

Best Regards

John B

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "rick tompkins"
<ricktompkins@...> wrote:
>
> (typed letter to Solway, N.J., 25 miles northeast of Philadelphia,
> Pennsylvania; it's probably still a small crossroads town.)
>
> _____
>
>
>
> WORKS PUBLISHING CO.
>
> Church Street Annex, Post Office Box 657
>
> New York City
>
>
>
>
>
> May 4, 1939
>
>
>
> Dear Sir:
>
>
>
> Thank you for your inquiry regarding our
book "Alcoholics
> Anonymous".
>
> The story behind this book is briefly as follows:
>
>
>
> Over 150 chronic alcoholics have rehabilitated themselves from what
>
> They have come to regard as an illness. These men and women, who
had be-
>
> lieved themselves weak-willed or victims of a habit, realized that
society
>
> does not shun a diabetic.doesn't blame a cripple.doesn't scorn a
blind
>
> man.and from that standpoint they began.
>
>
>
> Approximately five years ago, a man pronounced
incurably
> alcoholic
>
> began desperately to seek an answer. Through a lucky circumstance he
> stumbled
>
> upon a solution. He tried to pass it along to other chronic
alcoholics, and
>
> after several failures, he "clicked" with a man. He continued his
efforts,
> in
>
> spite of other failures, until a third "man" got it. After a year
of what
>
> might be called cutting and fitting a pattern, there were three men
who had
>
> recovered. The next year added ten to the first three. The third
year found
>
> the thirteen increased to over thirty with a rising percentage of
recoveries
>
> as they developed a procedure. At the end of the fourth year over
150
> chronic
>
> alcoholics were doing no drinking whatsoever. Today, in the fifth
year, the
>
> number is increasing rapidly, with over fifty percent success of
those ap-
>
> proached.
>
>
>
> These people, who dub themselves Alcoholics
Anonymous, try
> to keep
>
> their anonymity because the could not carry on the business of
earning
>
> a living if presented with an overwhelming flood of appeals for
personal
>
> assistance.
>
>
>
> However, they have written a book called "alcoholics
> Anonymous" in
>
> which they give a precise picture of their procedure. The book is
published
>
> by the Works Publishing Company, organized and financed mostly by
small sub-
>
> scriptions from the member themselves. The profits from the book
are being
>
> used at present to extend the work and to liquidate indebtedness
incurred in
>
> bringing the work to its present status.
>
>
>
> The men concerned are not prohibitionists.however,
they know
> that
>
> they, and many others like them, are unable to take so much as one
drink
>
> without disastrous results. Neither do they claim any mystic healing
> methods.
>
>
>
> We have gone into detail because, having suffered
the
> torments of the
>
> malady of alcoholism ourselves, the extension of this work is of
paramount
>
> importance. The book is a sound starting point for the alcoholic
who sin-
>
> cerely wants to recover. Furthermore, the book is helpful to the
family and
>
> those in contact with the alcoholic, for it is necessary that they
also
> under-
>
> stand the problem. The story of one man who rehabilitated himself
with the
>
> aid of the book alone is included in the volume "Alcoholics
Anonymous."
>
>
>
>
Sincerely,
>
>
(signature)
> R. Miller
>
> RH.
>
>
>
> _____
>
>
>
> Hi group,
>
> Placed in the AA Archives at the General Service Office long ago
>
> and used with permission of the writer's surviving relative,
>
> "Miller" is the maiden name of our Fellowship's pioneer
>
> secretary, Ruth Hock. In her seven years time with
>
> Honor Dealers, Works Publishing, and the Alcoholic Foundation
>
> she typed thousands of outreach replies like this one,
>
> with some using the 'Miller' signature.
>
> Compound this with the 2.4 million Big Books distributed since
>
> April 1939, her early efforts gave AA its best start to our growth
>
> of geometric proportions!
>
> Rick, Illinois
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

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++++Message 5347. . . . . . . . . . . . External threats to AA: McCarthyism
in the 1940s and 50s?
From: Andyrawks . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/10/2008 3:52:00 AM

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I'm involved in a Big Book/AA History Study.
Last week we were looking at some of the
external historical issues that have affected
our fellowship (and its survival of them) --
wars, complications by association with the
Oxford Groups, Katrina/New Orleans, etc.

One newcomer in the Group was wondering whether
any known effects or difficulties were caused
to the fellowship during the McCarthy investi-
gations of the 1950s?

- - - -

From the moderator:

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism

"McCarthyism is a term describing the intense
anti-communist suspicion in the United States
in a period that lasted roughly from the late
1940s to the late 1950s .... Originally coined
to criticize the actions of U.S. Senator Joseph
McCarthy, 'McCarthyism' later took on a more
general meaning, not necessarily referring to
the conduct of Joseph McCarthy alone."

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++++Message 5348. . . . . . . . . . . . You Have Been Warned
From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/10/2008 7:16:00 AM

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Long Beach man sentenced for killing his AA sponsor

By Tracy Manzer, Staff Writer

11/06/2008

LONG BEACH - A 29-year-old Long Beach man was
sentenced to more than 50 years to life in
prison Thursday for the 2006 shooting death
of his Alcoholics Anonymous sponsor.

Scott Gordon Reynolds said nothing as the
sentence was handed down and did not look back
at his family or the two dozen family and
friends of his victim, 33-year-old Uriel
Noriega, who packed one side of a Long Beach
Superior Courtroom.

"He was always interested in helping people
from day one," Ulysses Noriega told the court
in an emotional victim impact statement.

"He found his calling (with AA), he felt
fulfilled," the brother said.

Reynolds claimed he planned to kill himself
Sept. 2, 2006, in view of his fellow AA members
in front of St. Luke's Episcopal Church, 525
Seventh St.

Instead, he turned the gun on his sponsor once
he saw Noriega's face, emptying the weapon and
shooting the victim repeatedly.

"People refer to this as a murder, but in my
opinion it was an assassination," said Eddie
Milton, the victim's uncle.

Reynolds told the jury that he snapped after
the victim told other members in AA the
defendant was gay, a secret he claimed he
had told only to his mother and to Noriega.

"None of that was substantiated in court,"
Deputy District Attorney Patrick O'Crowley
said Thursday.

O'Crowley said the victim's sponsor testified
that Noriega had come to him for help in
dealing with Reynolds, but that the information
never went any further than the two men.

Under the rules of the program, information
shared between a sponsor and their sponsee is
confidential. New sponsors, such as Noriega,
who are in training can also go to their
sponsors for help if needed, O'Crowley said.

The defense also claimed Reynolds was mentally
ill, saying he was diagnosed with bipolar
disorder just prior to the slaying.

Neither defense argument worked and Reynolds
was convicted on all counts, including first-
degree murder and the personal use of a
firearm, resulting in a 50 years to life
sentence.

A charge of criminal threats added 8 months to
his sentence, which his attorney - Natasha
Khamashta - asked be served concurrently.

Long Beach Superior Court Judge Jesse Rodriguez
denied the request, tacking the extra time onto
the life sentence to be served consecutively.

He told the defendant that he had destroyed
the lives of two families, that of the
victim's and his own, and that he had
sympathy for both families, but primarily
for the victim's family.

"You will always have Mr. Reynolds to talk to,
to look at, to help him as much as you can,"
the judge said to Reynold's family.

"Mr. Noriega's family, you have a void that
you will never be able to fill... The most
empty feeling is the loss of a child."

Rodriguez did grant the defense's request to
strike one point from the record made by a
probation officer in a report filed at the
time of Reynold's arrest.

In the report, the officer stated that the
slaying was a crime of extreme violence, that
the defendant used a gun in the killing and
that he took advantage of a position of trust
with the victim in order to commit the murder.

Khamashta argued the information should be
removed from the record so that it would not
be there in 50 years when her client becomes
eligible for parole.

"Everything (the probation officer) wrote in
here is true. This was a crime of great
violence, he shot him ... I lost count of how
many times," the judge responded.

But Rodriguez agreed to remove just one point,
that the murderer used a position of trust to
carry out the crime, then ordered the defendant
to pay close to $4,000 in restitution for the
cost of the victim's funeral.

The judge's decision came after the victim's
brother delivered an extremely emotional
victim impact statement to the court.

Speaking on behalf of his family, Ulysses
Noriega lashed out at Reynolds and his
attorney, saying their accusations that his
brother was a gossip were untrue and ran
counter to the life that the victim had led.

Noriega worked as a lifeguard until a back
injury ended his career, an injury that
required two surgeries and permanently reduced
Noriega's mobility, Ulysses Noriega told the
court.

But his desire to help people was just as
strong and his role in AA helped him to
further his dreams of working with people
in need, the brother said.

"He helped hundreds of people through (their)
darkest moments," Ulysses Noriega said.

Ulysses Noriega also begged Reynolds and his
family to accept the sentence and to stop
their costly court battles and cease with
the claims that the victim was somehow
responsible for his death and that Reynolds
was mentally ill and therefore should not be
held responsible.

"He's a murderer who belongs in prison with
other murderers," the brother said, stopping
occasionally as his emotions swelled.

"Please do not try to appeal this. Have some
respect and let us live in peace."

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++++Message 5349. . . . . . . . . . . . Reproduction circus jacket covers
From: victoria callaway . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/10/2008 12:14:00 PM

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Don't know if this is appropriate or not but
I was wondering if anyone knows how to get
a hold of copies of the "circus jacket" cover
of our BB -- I have purchased them a long time
ago (made by? I don't know) and gave them away
to a lot of friends -- now I have been out for
a long time and would like to purchase some
more if anyone knows how.

Thanks so much -- and I learn so much from this
site and share it with others -- our history
is very important to me.

Have a great day sober,
vicki--the real alkie

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++++Message 5350. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: from Works Publishing Co.
From: rick tompkins . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/9/2008 6:04:00 PM

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Glad you responded, John, but more questions
come to my mind along with one unproven
assumption.

The accurate Alcoholic Foundation/Works
Publishing Co. office move dates are not at
my fingertips, but I am confident that a Post
Office Box was first established for the
expected massive inquiries for 1939 book
sales. Then again, the Liberty article came
in September 1939, and still there was no
large spike in BB requests. Of course,
history tells us that a sales rush didn't
happen until the watershed of the March 1941
Post article. Then, the Post article included
an office address while the 1939 Liberty article
did not.

Even Bill and Lois were living almost hand-
to-mouth with other AA friends/patrons in the
spring and summer of 1939, or were awaiting
foreclosure on Lois' family home in Brooklyn.

Was the Church Street Annex near Vesey Street
where the 24th Street Clubhouse took form?
a simple US Post Office branch (just like a
Box 459, Grand Central Station)?

Was it the Riverside (Rockefeller) Church's
or Calvary Church Mission's original Annex
address?

Near a subway stop on the way to Newark and
close to Wall Street?

Perhaps Dr. Kurtz or someone from Manhattan
knows these answers.

As far as my guarded assumption: wouldn't
'Church Street Annex, P.O. NYC' have a more
cosmopolitan and "national-type" feel than
an address of 17 Williams Street, Newark,
New Jersey?

I could be mistaken. On a side note, pity poor
Hank and the timing of his meltdowns; perhaps
he couldn't handle unrequited, unreturned love
from Ruth while he was respectably married at
the time.

Still, in my view Hank remains one of our
pivotal AA Pioneers despite his personal
conduct (not judgin' here too much, just
seein'). AA seems to have had a few Pioneer
scoundrels.

Not a saint either,

Rick, Illinois

- - - -

Message 5346 from John B.
<jax760@yahoo.com> (jax760 at yahoo.com)
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/5346

This answers a lot of questions:

AACOA has the post office box moving in 1940.
But according to this letter it moved in 1939.
This explains Hank's meltdown in June of 39
and his subsequent relapse in September of 39.

Is the date in Pass it On for the office move
still correct as 3/16/1940? How was this
established?

Best Regards

John B

- - - -

"rick tompkins" <ricktompkins@...> wrote:
WORKS PUBLISHING CO.
Church Street Annex, Post Office Box 657
New York City
May 4, 1939

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++++Message 5351. . . . . . . . . . . . Walt Whitman''s novel about
alcoholism
From: Dirk Dierking . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/10/2008 7:59:00 PM

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Does anyone have any information about Walt
Whitman's novel on the alcoholic? Unfortun-
ately, I cannot remember the name, (I think
it was called the Inebriate) but I know he
wrote one; it was not very popular, but I am
wondering if it is worth looking for.

Thanks and love,

--Dirk

- - - -

From the moderator:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walt_Whitman

"Early in his career, [Walt Whitman] also
produced a temperance novel, Franklin Evans
(1842)."

This novel was reprinted a little over a
year ago:

http://www.popmatters.com/pm/review/franklin-evans-or-the-inebriate-by-walt-
whit\

man-ed-christopher-castiglia-an [29]

Franklin Evans, or the Inebriate: A Tale of
the Times by Walt Whitman [ed. Christopher
Castiglia and Glenn Hendler] Duke University
Press, July 2007, 232 pages

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++++Message 5352. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: from Works Publishing Co.
From: schaberg43 . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/12/2008 3:43:00 PM

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Regarding the dates for the start of the post
office box numbers, the documents in the GSO
Archive provide the following information:

The ad for the Big Book that was run in the
New York Times on April 11, 1939 is the first
instance of the 657 post office box number
being used:

Have you an
ALCOHOLIC PROBLEM?
ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS – the story of precisely
how more than 100 men have recovered from alcoholism.
For information write
WORKS PUBLISHING COMPANY
Church Street Annex P. O. Box 657, New York, N.Y.

[Archive 1939-192, Box 59, Folder C(1)]

Presumably, this post office box was contracted
for on April 7, 1939 – the same day that the
post office box for the Alcoholic Foundation
was contracted for. In a letter of that date
to board member, Frank Amos, Hank Parkhurst
wrote:

We paid $4.00 which is the first quarter rent
on post box #658, Church Street Annex, Post
Office, New York City, in the name of the
Alcoholic Foundation. Will you please issue
a check covering this $4.00.

[Archive 1939-179, Box 59, Folder D.1]

Best,

Old Bill

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++++Message 5353. . . . . . . . . . . . Re:Walt Whitman''s novel about
alcoholism
From: Mike Barns . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/12/2008 1:57:00 PM

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Amazon.com lists both the reprint ($14.95)
and a couple of originals ($75-$130):

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-key
word\

s=Walt+Whitman+-+%22Inebriate%22&x=11&y=16 [30]

Mike Barns

- - - -

Also from: charles Knapp <cdknapp@pacbell.net>
(cdknapp at pacbell.net)

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++++Message 5354. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: External threats to AA:
McCarthyism in the 1940s and 50s?
From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/10/2008 7:02:00 PM

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Joe McCarthy (a Senator) often gets erroneously
associated with the House (of Representatives)
Un-American Activities Committee (HUAC).

HUAC was the entity that led to the Hollywood
black-listing and people being jailed for
contempt of Congress. In one form or another,
it ran from the mid-1930s to mid-1970s before
being abolished.

McCarthy later adopted the methods used by
HUAC in his Senate committee hearings during
the early to mid-1950s. After the infamous
Army-McCarthy Hearings of the mid-1950s, he
was ultimately discredited and censured by the
Senate. He was very likely an alcoholic and
likely died from it in the late 1950s at a
relatively young age.

Cheers
Arthur

P.S. I certainly could be wrong, but as a
postscript to this message, I believe the
largest external threat to AA is alcohol.

According to the World Health Organization
and NCADD, alcohol is the third leading cause
of preventable deaths world-wide.

- - - -

-----Original Message-----

I'm involved in a Big Book/AA History Study.
Last week we were looking at some of the
external historical issues that have affected
our fellowship (and its survival of them) --
wars, complications by association with the
Oxford Groups, Katrina/New Orleans, etc.

One newcomer in the Group was wondering whether
any known effects or difficulties were caused
to the fellowship during the McCarthy investi-
gations of the 1950s?

- - - -

From the moderator:

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism

"McCarthyism is a term describing the intense
anti-communist suspicion in the United States
in a period that lasted roughly from the late
1940s to the late 1950s .... Originally coined
to criticize the actions of U.S. Senator Joseph
McCarthy, 'McCarthyism' later took on a more
general meaning, not necessarily referring to
the conduct of Joseph McCarthy alone."

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++++Message 5355. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Walt Whitman''s novel about
alcoholism
From: chris fuccione . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/12/2008 3:12:00 PM

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Whitman and the Washingtonians

<<Whitman was a vocal proponent of temperance
and rarely drank alcohol. He once claimed he
did not taste "strong liquor" until he was
thirty and occasionally argued for prohibition.
One of his earliest long fiction works, the
novel Franklin Evans; or, The Inebriate, first
published November 23, 1842, is a temperance
novel. Whitman wrote the novel at the height of
popularity of the Washingtonian movement though
the movement itself was plagued with contra-
dictions, as was Franklin Evans. Years later
Whitman claimed he was embarrassed by the book
and called it a "damned rot". He dismissed it
by saying he wrote the novel in three days
solely for money while he was under the
influence of alcohol himself. Even so, he
wrote other pieces recommending temperance,
including The Madman and a short story
"Reuben's Last Wish".>>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walt_Whitman

- - - -

Also from <John.Quinn@SBCGlobal.net>
(John.Quinn at SBCGlobal.net)

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++++Message 5356. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Reproduction circus jacket
covers
From: S Sommers . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/10/2008 6:44:00 PM

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From: S Sommers <scmws@yahoo.com>
(scmws at yahoo.com)

History or not, you can find reproductions of
dust covers from the company in this link:

http://dustjackets.org/

Thanks for everything.

Sam Sommers
Elkhart Indiana

<bigbookken@yahoo.com>
(bigbookken at yahoo.com)
also refers us to this site: "Great
quality reproduction dust jackets."

<chicouple7560@sbcglobal.net>
(chicouple7560 at sbcglobal.net)
also suggest this site.

- - - -

From: Jocelyn <prpllady51@yahoo.com>
(prpllady51 at yahoo.com)

You can purchase them here:

http://anonpress.org/store/

Jocelyn

The anonpress site is also sent in by
David Jones <jonesd926@aol.com>
(jonesd926 at aol.com)

and james ryan <elephant_7@yahoo.com>
(elephant_7 at yahoo.com)

- - - -

From: Shakey1aa@aol.com
(Shakey1aa at aol.com)


Dust jackets for all editions are available
through this web site:

http://abookman.com/aacatalog.htm

Their email address is <abookman@mchsi.com>
(abookman at mchsi.com)

You will have to look through this site to
find the section that deals with Big Book
dust jackets.

YIS,
Shakey Mike Gwirtz

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++++Message 5358. . . . . . . . . . . . FRANKLIN EVANS, or THE INEBRIATE
From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/12/2008 5:59:00 PM

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Whitman's novel has just recently (2007) been
brought back into print, with an introduction,
and a couple of shorter Whitman pieces (plus
Abe Lincoln's 1842 Springfield Washingtonian
address). My recollection is that the book
was never really finished off, and in any case
the whole production is brief. As to whether
it's worth reading, that depends on your taste
in temperance literature, but it's scarcely a
long read, and there's some good journalism in
it, and it's written at a critical point in
American temperance literature, besides being
by a major author (if in a very minor key),
so I'd say yes, but that's just my opinion.

-- Jared Lobdell

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++++Message 5359. . . . . . . . . . . . The date of the Akron Manual
From: luckett.richard . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/14/2008 10:22:00 AM

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Can anyone date the Akron Manual?

The various web sites are not in agreement as
to exactly when it was written, and it would
be helpful to know.

Thanks,

Richard

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++++Message 5360. . . . . . . . . . . . Photos of the motorcycle Bill and
Lois drove
From: CloydG . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/16/2008 3:26:00 PM

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Does anyone have any links to AA sites that
have a picture of the Harley Davidson which
Bill and Lois Wilson used while they toured
the country?

I'm particularly interested in finding a
picture of the two of them, where Lois is
driving and Bill is in the side car. Any help
would be greatly appreciated!

In love and sevice, Clyde G.

<cloydg449@sbcglobal.net>
(cloydg449 at sbcglobal.net)

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++++Message 5361. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr. Tom, "my old time friend in AA"
??
From: diazeztone . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/10/2008 9:57:00 PM

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Can anyone identify the Dr Tom mentioned in
the sale of this book?

http://www.baumanrarebooks.com/rare-books/alcoholics-anonymous/twelve-steps-
and-\

twelve-traditions/70545.aspx [31]

ld pierce
aabibliography.com

- - - -

The inscription by Bill W. reads ""Dr. Tom
-- my old time friend in AA"

Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions
Cost: $10,000.00

"TO DR. TOM -- MY OLD TIME FRIEND IN AA": FIRST
EDITION OF TWELVE STEPS AND TWELVE TRADITIONS,
PRESENTATION COPY INSCRIBED BY AA FOUNDER
BILL WILSON

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++++Message 5362. . . . . . . . . . . . Bob P. and High Watch Farm?
From: garylock7008 . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/12/2008 8:23:00 AM

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In the Big Book story "A.A. TAUGHT HIM TO
HANDLE SOBRIETY" Bob Pearson said [page 558
in the 4th edition] that "Within a few days
I found myself drying out on a drunk farm."

Given that it was Dr. Tiebout who persuaded
him to seek help - is it possible that the
help came from High Watch Farm?

We were reading this story in our meeting
here in Welland, Ontario, Canada and I found
that not one person in the meeting had ever
heard of this place. Over the next week or
so, I could not find one person in our local
area who knew about it.

AH! we have so much history to pass on. A
check on the High Watch Farm web-site shows
that it is still carrying the AA message
very well.Do any of the group members have
additional information on this? Gary

- - - -

From the moderator:

If you go to our Message Board and search for
"High Watch" in quotation marks, you will
discover that we already have a little bit
posted about the place.

Also see:

http://www.highwatchfarm.com/index.php?pageid=9

"It all began in 1939 when Etheldred Folsom,
better known to her friends as Sister Francis,
invited a group of recovering alcoholics to
her 200 acre farm in Kent, Connecticut. She
wanted to learn more about a new movement
she had heard about which had began in 1935
called Alcoholic Anonymous (AA). Among the
visitors were Bill Wilson, the founding member
of AA and Marty Mann the first woman to
maintain continuous sobriety in AA."

"Ms. Folsom was so impressed with her guests
and this movement that she offered to gift her
Farm to the cause. Bill, knowing AA could not
own property formed a Not-for Profit 501(c)(3)
Organization and appointed a Board of Directors
as its Governing Body. His vision was for the
Farm to become a retreat, based on the 12-step
principles of AA where alcoholics could come
to seek recovery from their active addiction."

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana, US)

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++++Message 5363. . . . . . . . . . . . JOE McCARTHY
From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/13/2008 8:28:00 PM

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Probably the only connection between AA and
the activities of HUAC (I know of none with
Joe McCarthy, except that he could have used
AA) would be that a number of those black-
listed in the entertainment industry died
alcoholic deaths -- but whether they came to
AA is doubtful.

As far as guilt by association with the Left,
Bill Wilson was scarcely anywhere left of
political center, the Oxford Group was
pro-Capitalist and even in some minds Right-
wing, and the only Left-winger I know of
involved with AA in the early days (and she
mostly with Al-Anon) was Dr. Ruth Fox, a
non-Communist Socialist like her husband,
Mac Coleman, who died in 1950. Of the
messengers to Ebby, for example, Rowland H.
was a Republican State Senator in Rhode
Island during WW1, Cebra G. a Republican
State Senator in Vermont in the 1930s, and
Shep C. ran for Congress as a Republican in
1940.

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++++Message 5364. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: from Works Publishing Co.
From: rick tompkins . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/13/2008 10:28:00 PM

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And, researching to find Church Street, it's
in lower Manhattan's financial district, a
few blocks from Wall Street.

Rick, Illinois

- - - -

From: schaberg43

Regarding the dates for the start of the post
office box numbers, the documents in the GSO
Archive provide the following information:
The ad for the Big Book that was run in the
New York Times on April 11, 1939 is the first
instance of the 657 post office box number
being used:
Have you an
ALCOHOLIC PROBLEM?
ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS - the story of precisely
how more than 100 men have recovered from alcoholism.
For information write
WORKS PUBLISHING COMPANY
Church Street Annex P. O. Box 657, New York, N.Y.
[Archive 1939-192, Box 59, Folder C(1)]
Presumably, this post office box was contracted
for on April 7, 1939 - the same day that the
post office box for the Alcoholic Foundation
was contracted for. In a letter of that date
to board member, Frank Amos, Hank Parkhurst
wrote:
We paid $4.00 which is the first quarter rent
on post box #658, Church Street Annex, Post
Office, New York City, in the name of the
Alcoholic Foundation. Will you please issue
a check covering this $4.00.
[Archive 1939-179, Box 59, Folder D.1]
Best,
Old Bill

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++++Message 5365. . . . . . . . . . . . Fifty AA members from show business,
etc.
From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/17/2008 11:49:00 AM

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Can anyone shed any light on this? Someone sent
me this email:

Have you ever heard of The Fifty? It's a name
for fifty AA'ers who held a press luncheon in,
I believe, New York City.

Dick Van Dyke and Sid Caesar (very popular
American comedians), a Senator, lawyers and
doctors all blew their anonymity as a way of
broadening the reach of AA.

I was told by one the participants that, while
not sponsored by AA, it was organized with
AA's knowledge. I believe he said an AA trustee
resigned and organized it.

Ring any bells?

- - - -

From the moderator: let's be careful here.
It is perfectly all right for an AA member
to state in the media that he or she is a
recovering alcoholic. This was established
back in the time of Marty Mann.

Senator Harold Hughes regularly announced
in public that he was a recovered alcoholic
( http://hindsfoot.org/kNO1.html ).

Simply stating in the public media that you
are an alcoholic is not "blowing your
anonymity."

Because Hughes never stated in the public media
back then that he was an AA member. That
is what the traditons forbid.

As long as you leave all mention of your
AA membership out of it, you are not "blowing
your anonymity."

Glenn C.

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++++Message 5366. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Photos of the motorcycle Bill
and Lois drove
From: momaria33772 . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/17/2008 5:50:00 PM

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This, and MANY other great historical pictures
are available on:

http://www.mensworkshop.org/AA_Gallery/index.htm

This is a super resource for any History Lover.

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++++Message 5367. . . . . . . . . . . . An interesting typo on Dr. Bob''s
death
From: handlebarick . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/17/2008 4:34:00 PM

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The January 1951 issue of the Grapevine, when
it marks the anniversary of Dr. Bob's passing,
lists November nineteenth at noonday.

This is presumably an error, because all the
other sources of information that I know give
November sixteenth as Dr. Bob's date-of-death.

Handlebar Rick, Wapakoneta, Ohio

- - - -

From the moderator: we are two days past the
anniversary of his death now (this is November
18), and probably should have posted something
to commemorate it, but at any rate, the correct
date is indeed November 16:

Dr. Bob = Robert Holbrook Smith
born 8 August 1879; died 16 November 1950

See for example:

Mitchell K. in
http://alcoholism.about.com/library/blmitch5.htm
"Dr. Bob never drank again until his death,
November 16, 1950."

http://silkworth.net/aabiography/roberthsmith.html
Dr. Bob died on November 16, 1950.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Smith_(doctor)
"Robert Holbrook Smith (August 8, 1879
- November 16, 1950) was an American physician
and surgeon who co-founded Alcoholics Anonymous.
He was also known as Dr. Bob."

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++++Message 5368. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Fifty AA members from show
business, etc.
From: aalogsdon@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/18/2008 6:38:00 AM

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The NCA Bulletin published by The National
Council on Alcoholism Vol 2 No 1 dated July
1976 carries the Headline CELEBRITIES IDENTIFY
SELVES AS RECOVERED ALCOHOLICS.

Shown on front page is a photograph of Wilbur
D. Mills, Garry Moore, Dick Van Dyke and Edwin
E. "Buzz" Aldrin Jr. Inside is a list of the
persons who identified themselves as recovered
alcoholics along with many photographs
including a group of over fifty persons.
This copy of the bulletin was donated to my
archive collection by Don Bennitt of Frankfort,
Illinois.

I have also a framed photograph with identifi-
cation of the group 16 x 19 and also a
12 x 15 wooden and metal plaque describing
the occasion with all names and description of
the occasion, which was presented to one of
the people identified. These two items came
from The National Council on Alcoholism.

- - - -

From the moderator:

The celebrities who made up this group of
fifty or so never mentioned their AA membership
in public. They stated only that they were
recovered alcoholics, and that they were making
this public statement to make clear to the
public that alcoholism was treatable, and
that alcoholics could be restored to fully
functioning and productive members of society.
This was the principal message of Marty Mann's
National Council on Alcoholism: that instead
of the old punitive approach of automatically
firing alcoholics from their jobs or throwing
them in jail, they should be provided with the
kind of treatment that would enable them to
recover their place in the world.

See Sally and David R. Brown, A Biography
of Mrs. Marty Mann: The First Lady of
Alcoholics Anonymous
http://www.sallyanddavidbrown.com

Sgt. Bill Swegen, On the Military Firing
Line, on the punitive American attitude
toward alcoholism in the 1940's and 50's
http://hindsfoot.org/kBS1.html

This group of fifty celebrities is the
one referred to by Nancy Olson (the
founder of the AAHistoryLovers) in her book
"With a Lot of Help from Our Friends," see
http://hindsfoot.org/kNO1.html

Nancy asked some of the members of this group
of fifty to appear before a U.S. Senate
committee on alcoholism, along with other
important figures in the field of alcoholism
treatment and recovery, including Bill W.
himself.

The traditional AA policy was followed at all
times. People who said publicly that they were
recovered alcoholics could give their full
names (and the TV and newspaper cameras were
allowed to photograph them full face) AS LONG
AS THEY NEVER MENTIONED THEIR A.A. MEMBERSHIP.

Those who talked to the Senate committee about
their A.A. membership (including Bill W. and
one or two U.S. Navy officers, among others)
gave only their first names, and were seated
with their backs to the cameras, so that only
the backs of their heads were shown.

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++++Message 5369. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Photos of the motorcycle Bill
and Lois drove
From: Cindy Miller . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/17/2008 6:17:00 PM

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There is a full-page picture in "Pass It On"
of Bill driving and Lois in the sidecar. P. 71.

For those who are interested in pictures,
Lois's memoirs "Lois Remembers" has a lot
of great pictures from -- and a day-by-day
(almost) account of -- their "industrial
investigation" journey, April, 1925.

-cm
`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>

___________________________

From: "David LeBlanc" <Inkman3@webtv.net>
(Inkman3 at webtv.net)

Look at the photo section in the web site
set up by District Five in Central Texas:

http://www.texasdistrict5.com/history-in-photos.htm

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++++Message 5370. . . . . . . . . . . . AA Recovery Outcome Rates: updated
version
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/22/2008 6:56:00 PM

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An October 11, 2008 update of the original
article -- with the addition of the recently
released 2007 Survey Results -- has just been
posted on the internet:

"Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) Recovery Outcome
Rates: Contemporary Myth and Misinterpretation."

By Arthur S. (Arlington, Texas), Tom E.
(Wappingers Falls, New York), and Glenn C.
(South Bend, Indiana).

Originally published January 1, 2008

Adobe PDF file at http://hindsfoot.org/recout01.pdf

MS Word DOC file at http://hindsfoot.org/recout01.doc

- - - -

Summary of the data:

The A.A. Triennial Membership Surveys for 1977
through 1989 show that, of those people who are
in their first month of attending A.A. meetings,
26% will still be attending A.A. meetings at
the end of that year.

Of those who are in their fourth month of
attending A.A. meetings (i.e., those who have
completed their initial ninety days, and have
thereby demonstrated a certain willingness to
really try the program), 56% will still be
attending A.A. meetings at the end of that
year.

For growth of AA sobriety ranges, the 1983
Survey showed 25% of AA members sober over
5 years and the 2004 Survey showed 50% of AA
members sober over 5 years.

For growth of AA sobriety averages, the 1983
Survey found the average AA member sober for
4 years and the 2004 Survey found the average
AA member sober for more than 8 years.

In 2002, global AA membership was around 2.1
million (1.2 million of that in the US). These
membership numbers are likely understated;
even so, it is a substantial quantitative
indicator of AA success:

AA was helping 1 alcoholic for every 7
active alcohol dependent adults. If we
consider alcohol abusers to be potential
members then it is 1 AA member for
every 15 problem drinkers.

Corresponding research in the 1991-1992
NIAAA "National Longitudinal Alcohol
Epidemiologic Survey” (NLAES) showed
similar numbers. There was 1 AA member
for every 7 alcohol dependent people and
1 for every 12 either alcohol dependent
or alcohol abusers.

The authors state in conclusion: "The above
are not measurements of failure."

- - - -

FROM THE INTRODUCTION:

This paper addresses an erroneous myth that
AA is experiencing a 5% (or less) “success
rate” today as opposed to either a 50%, 70%,
75%, 80% or 93% (take your pick) “success
rate” it once reputedly enjoyed in the 1940s
and 1950s. The term “myth” is used to emphasize
that the low “success rates” promulgated are
a product of imagination, invention and
inattention to detail rather than fact-based
research.

Also noteworthy in the derivation of the
mythical percentages, is the absence of
fundamental academic disciplines of methodical
research, corroborating verification and
factual citation of sources. Regrettably, some
of the advocates who are propagating the myth
are AA members who purport to be “AA Historians”
and appear to be advocating agendas that portray
fiction as fact and hearsay as history ....

Claims of a 10%, 5% or less success rate for
contemporary AA are erroneous and rest largely
and misguidedly on the misinterpretation of
data in a 1989-1990 internal AA General Service
Office report on “AA Triennial Membership
Surveys.”

The assertion of a 50-75% success rate in AA
is derived from various AA literature sources
and other written sources, but is not explicitly
demonstrated except in one instance. That
instance pertains to the AA members who had
their personal stories printed in the first
edition “Big Book” ....

Over the years, the internet has provided an
international forum for anyone who can access
it. A number of so-called “recovery” or “AA
history” or “AA archives” web sites have pro-
liferated. Many teem with personal grievances,
screeds, and widely varying (and revisionist)
interpretations of AA history and the AA
program of recovery. An abundance of academic
and medical special interest web sites have
materialized as well.

The erroneous 10%, 5% or less success rate
myth for contemporary AA has proliferated
without as much as a token challenge to its
veracity or investigation of its origin. The
topic of AA success or failure outcomes
suffers from a great deal of anecdotal
misinformation, misinterpretation and
editorializing ....

Based on research discoveries to date, it is
believed that the 50% + 25% success rate is
in all probability a very reasonable “best
estimate” of AA’s success (both early and
contemporary).

The sole qualification (it is vitally important
and often disregarded) is that the 50% + 25%
success outcome rates apply only to those
prospects who attempt to give AA a serious try
(i.e. you get out of AA what you put into it).
This rests on the simple, obvious, premise that
a remedy cannot be construed as either a
“success” or “failure” until it is at least
tried and tested.

Also of contextual importance, is that the
subset of the past and present prospect popu-
lation falling into this category is estimated
to be 20% to 40% (1 or 2 out of 5) of the
total prospect population.

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++++Message 5371. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr. Tom, "my old time friend in
AA" ??
From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/17/2008 6:35:00 PM

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A couple of years ago eBay had one of the
first five 12x12s to come off the press
inscribed by Bill to Tom Powers for sale.
He was instrumental in getting the book put
together.

This is not the same book as the inscription
is different and the earlier book was not
offered with a dust jacket.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

- - - -

At 20:57 11/10/2008, diazeztone wrote:

>Can anyone identify the Dr Tom mentioned in
>the sale of this book?
>
>http://www.baumanrarebooks.com/rare-books/alcoholics-anonymous/twelve-steps
-and\

-twelve-traditions/70545.aspx [31]
>
>ld pierce
>aabibliography.com
>
>- - - -
>
>The inscription by Bill W. reads ""Dr. Tom
>-- my old time friend in AA"
>
>Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions
>Cost: $10,000.00
>
>"TO DR. TOM -- MY OLD TIME FRIEND IN AA": FIRST
>EDITION OF TWELVE STEPS AND TWELVE TRADITIONS,
>PRESENTATION COPY INSCRIBED BY AA FOUNDER
>BILL WILSON
>
>
>

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++++Message 5372. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr. Tom, "my old time friend in
AA" ??
From: mrpetesplace . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/18/2008 5:55:00 PM

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There is a Dr. Tom M. who started the first
group in North Carolina.

See Messages 5087 and 5138
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/5087
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/5138

Does it give a full name (or last initial)
for the Dr. Tom to whom this book is inscribed?

Or are there other reasons for believing that
this book has to have been inscribed to Tom
Powers instead of perhaps Tom M.?

- - - -

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,
"diazeztone" <eztone@...> wrote:
>
> Can anyone identify the Dr Tom mentioned in
> the sale of this book?
>
http://www.baumanrarebooks.com/rare-books/alcoholics-anonymous/twelve-steps-
and-\

twelve-traditions/70545.aspx [31]
>
> ld pierce
> aabibliography.com
>
> - - - -
>
> The inscription by Bill W. reads ""Dr. Tom
> -- my old time friend in AA"
>
> Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions
> Cost: $10,000.00
>
> "TO DR. TOM -- MY OLD TIME FRIEND IN AA": FIRST
> EDITION OF TWELVE STEPS AND TWELVE TRADITIONS,
> PRESENTATION COPY INSCRIBED BY AA FOUNDER
> BILL WILSON
>

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++++Message 5373. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bob P. and High Watch Farm?
From: Kevin Short . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/17/2008 6:12:00 PM

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The history page on their web site states that
High Watch Farm is the oldest substance abuse
treatment facility in the world based on 12
step principles. My wife and I were in Kent,
Connecticut, a couple of years back and had
a wonderful evening when we attended their
8:00PM Saturday open speaker meeting.

Mel B. might have a it more to say. In his
book about Ebby, Mel tells of Ebby's visits
to Joy Farm (the original name), then operated
by Sister Francis.

Bill L.'s web site also has an excerpt from
the April 1986 Reader's Digest, that goes
into more detail about Bob P. and High Watch
Farm.

Kevin S. (Windham, New Hampshire, US)

- - - -

See "The Unforgettable Bill W." by Bob P.,
Reader's Digest, April 1986, at
http://www.barefootsworld.net/aabillwreadersdigest.html

- - - -

From: jenny andrews <jennylaurie1@hotmail.com>
(jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com)

See also "Mrs Marty Mann: the first lady of
Alcoholics Anonymous" (Sally and David Brown;
Hazelden; 2001): "The Wilsons, Marty, and two
additional AA couples wasted no time driving
to spend a weekend at High Watch Farm ... a
rustic retreat owned and managed by a saintly
old woman who had chosen the name Sister
Francis in honor of her favorite saint ...
from then on High Watch was essentially an
AA retreat and detox center ... High Watch
Farm is still (2001) a functioning retreat
primarily for AAs and an important part of
AA history." (pp124 ff).

- - - -

Original message: garylock7008 wrote
>
> In the Big Book story "A.A. TAUGHT HIM TO
> HANDLE SOBRIETY" Bob Pearson said [page 558
> in the 4th edition] that "Within a few days
> I found myself drying out on a drunk farm."
>
> Given that it was Dr. Tiebout who persuaded
> him to seek help - is it possible that the
> help came from High Watch Farm?
>
> We were reading this story in our meeting
> here in Welland, Ontario, Canada and I found
> that not one person in the meeting had ever
> heard of this place. Over the next week or
> so, I could not find one person in our local
> area who knew about it.
>
> AH! we have so much history to pass on. A
> check on the High Watch Farm web-site shows
> that it is still carrying the AA message
> very well.Do any of the group members have
> additional information on this? Gary
>
> - - - -
>
> >From the moderator:
>
> If you go to our Message Board and search for
> "High Watch" in quotation marks, you will
> discover that we already have a little bit
> posted about the place.
>
> Also see:
>
> http://www.highwatchfarm.com/index.php?pageid=9
>
> "It all began in 1939 when Etheldred Folsom,
> better known to her friends as Sister Francis,
> invited a group of recovering alcoholics to
> her 200 acre farm in Kent, Connecticut. She
> wanted to learn more about a new movement
> she had heard about which had began in 1935
> called Alcoholic Anonymous (AA). Among the
> visitors were Bill Wilson, the founding member
> of AA and Marty Mann the first woman to
> maintain continuous sobriety in AA."
>
> "Ms. Folsom was so impressed with her guests
> and this movement that she offered to gift her
> Farm to the cause. Bill, knowing AA could not
> own property formed a Not-for Profit 501(c)(3)
> Organization and appointed a Board of Directors
> as its Governing Body. His vision was for the
> Farm to become a retreat, based on the 12-step
> principles of AA where alcoholics could come
> to seek recovery from their active addiction."
>
> Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana, US)

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++++Message 5374. . . . . . . . . . . . Group conscience
From: victoria callaway . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/1/2008 10:06:00 PM

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A younger member wanted to know if I could
find anything out about where the idea of a
group conscience grew from, and how it became
a part of AA.

Thanks so much
vicki

- - - -

From the moderator:

The Oxford Group believed not only in
individual guidance, but also that a number
of members could meet and seek divine
guidance for the activities of their group
as a whole.

In fact, all important decisions in the
Oxford Group were supposed to be made as
the result of group guidance sessions of
this sort.

But I'm sure that some of our good AA
historians in the AAHL can give us much
more in the way of useful detail about
how this practice was altered and adapted
to AA usage.

Glenn C., South Bend, Indiana

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++++Message 5375. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Group conscience
From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/5/2008 8:24:00 AM

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In "AA Comes of Age" (pg 102) the earliest
personal experience that influenced the
Traditions, and AA's Legacy of Unity, occurred
when Bill W was two years sober. In December
1936, Charles B Towns offered Bill a lucrative
job at his hospital as a lay alcoholism
therapist. After years of a hand to mouth
existence Bill wanted the job very much.

The question was put to the NY group meeting
in Bill's home and they rejected it. Bill
complied and cooperated with their decision
and later wrote in "AA Comes of Age" (pgs
101-102):

"Three blows, well and truly struck, had
fallen on the anvil of experience. The common
welfare must come first. AA cannot have a
class of professional therapists, and God,
speaking in the group conscience, is to be
our final authority." Bill went on to write
"Clearly implied in these three embryo
principles of tradition was a fourth: Our
leaders are but trusted servants; they do not
govern."

Cheers
Arthur

-----Original Message-----

A younger member wanted to know if I could
find anything out about where the idea of a
group conscience grew from, and how it became
a part of AA.

Thanks so much
vicki

- - - -

From the moderator:

The Oxford Group believed not only in
individual guidance, but also that a number
of members could meet and seek divine
guidance for the activities of their group
as a whole.

In fact, all important decisions in the
Oxford Group were supposed to be made as
the result of group guidance sessions of
this sort.

But I'm sure that some of our good AA
historians in the AAHL can give us much
more in the way of useful detail about
how this practice was altered and adapted
to AA usage.

Glenn C., South Bend, Indiana

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++++Message 5376. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Group conscience
From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/5/2008 9:57:00 AM

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From the 2007 "A Narrative Timeline of AA
History" work by one of the members of this
forum.

Two early instances of the group conscience at
work. Bill W. often cited these as the earliest
examples fo our 2nd Tradition.

Dec, In December 1936, Charles B Towns offered
Bill a lucrative job at his hospital as a lay
alcoholism therapist. After years of a hand
to mouth existence Bill wanted the job very
much. The question was put to the NY group
meeting in Bill's home and they rejected it.
Bill complied with their decision. He later
wrote (in AACOA 102): "3 blows, well and truly
struck, had fallen on the anvil of experience …
The common welfare must come first … AA cannot
have a class of professional therapists … and
God, speaking in the group conscience, is to be
our final authority." Bill went on to write
"Clearly implied in these 3 embryo principles
of tradition was a fourth: Our leaders are but
trusted servants; they do not govern." (AACOA
100-102, LR 197, BW-RT 232-234, NG 63-64, PIO
175-177)

Oct, Bill W and Dr Bob met again in Akron, OH.
At the time there were 2 groups and about 40
sober members (over 20 of them sober for more
than a year). All had been considered hopeless
and beyond help. Bill had some grandiose ideas
for a chain of AA hospitals, paid missionaries
and a book of experience to carry the message
to distant places. Dr Bob liked the book idea
but not the hospitals and paid missionaries.
In a meeting at T. Henry Williams home, Bill's
ideas narrowly passed by a single vote among
18 Akron members. The NY group was more enthusi-
astic. This historic milestone marked the
decision to write the Big Book.(AACOA vii, 76-77,
144-146, BW-RT 239-243, DBGO 123-124, NG 56-57,
PIO 180, LOH 142)

Warm Regards

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,
"victoria callaway" <victoria006@...> wrote:
>
> A younger member wanted to know if I could
> find anything out about where the idea of a
> group conscience grew from, and how it became
> a part of AA.
>
> Thanks so much
> vicki

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++++Message 5377. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Group conscience
From: Ben Humphreys . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/5/2008 10:10:00 AM

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I have an old pamplet dated 1946 called The
Twelve Points to Ensure our Future (the
forerunner of the twelve traditions) which
includes group conscience, which was one of
the earliest mentions of the Group Conscience.

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++++Message 5378. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Group conscience
From: LES COLE . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/5/2008 10:13:00 AM

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Hello Vicki:

Although the Oxford Group was the first organ-
ized program/group dealing with moral/spiritual
guidance that Ebby and Bill attended prior to
the development of the AA program, we can
recall that Ebby, Bill, Dr. Bob (and other AA
pioneers) were products of the New England
culture. In many of the early Colonies
important decisions governing the group were
made in Town Meetings. Therein anyone and
everyone had a voice which was respected.
People interacted with ideas and viewpoints
which led to consensus. That approach to
problem solving was a natural and inherent
part of Bill's personal makeup and surely
(perhaps unconsciously) he invested that system
in the organization of AA and the Fellowship.

Likewise, Bill's wife Lois, was raised within
a family which believed in the Swedenborgian
religion having moral principles of charity,
respect for others, and divine guidance.
She had a large and continuing influence on
Bill as he came to rely on the group conscience
as he gradually moved away from self indulgence.
Similarly, Dr Bob had a long connection with
the Oxford Group gatherings as did Henrietta
Sieberling, prior to even meeting Bill.

When we think of all those very early influences
(prior to AA) it is a fair assumption that it
was the combination which was the base for
articulating the 12-Steps, 12-Traditions, and
Fellowship practices.

Les C

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++++Message 5379. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bob P. and High Watch Farm?
From: Sally Brown . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/5/2008 12:27:00 AM

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Dave and I are happy to announce that all our
research materials for the Marty Mann bio have
now been sent to the addiction archives at
Brown University, thanks to the good offices
of Dr. David Lewis. Included are extensive paper
files, tapes of interviewees and of Marty, and
pictures.

One of the items was shared with us by Lyn
Harbaugh (Vanderbilt University). It is a
transcript of the keynote talk by Marty at the
celebration of High Watch's 25th anniversary
of its being "handed over" to AA by Sister
Francis. Marty, who was there at the beginning
of that association, and became a long-time
Board member, recounts the history of High
Watch. I believe Lyn wrote her senior thesis
on High Watch Farm, so she could be a very
good resource in addition to whatever records
High Watch itself has.

Shalom everyone - Sally

Rev Sally Brown
Board Certified Chaplain
United Church of Christ

Coauthor with David R Brown:
A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann:
The First Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous
http://www.sallyanddavidbrown.com

1470 Sand Hill Rd, 309
Palo Alto, California 94304
Phone/Fax: 650-325-5258
Email: rev.sally@att.net
(rev.sally at att.net)

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++++Message 5380. . . . . . . . . . . . Who are you to say there is no God?
From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/4/2008 8:18:00 PM

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In the 1st edit. Big Book(all printings) on
page 69 in the chapter We Agnostics, the
phrase "Who are you to say there is no God?"
is bold,double sized and not italicized.

I realize that a change in the Big Book
requires a conference action. I looked in
Advisory Actions of the General Service
Conference of AA 1951-1982 under literature
and saw no action to change this.

In the 2nd Ed. Big Book, on page 58 it is
no longer bold, double sized. It is now
italicized. Why?

The man that said this was Fitz M,"Our Southern
Friend." His story was quite edited from the
original.

Are there other examples of the same sentence
being used in a personal story and also in the
chapters up to Dr. Bob's story?

YIS
Shakey Mike Gwirtz
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA

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++++Message 5381. . . . . . . . . . . . 21 Best Movie Alcoholics award list
From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/4/2008 8:22:00 PM

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The 21 Best Movie Alcoholics of All Time
award list on the filmcritic.com website:

http://www.filmcritic.com/misc/emporium.nsf/reviews/The-21-Best-Movie-Alcoho
lics\

-of-All-Time [32]

SELF EXPLANATORY

Shakey Mike Gwirtz
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA

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++++Message 5382. . . . . . . . . . . . Little Red Book p. 62 error in 1st
version of the 1949 edition
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/5/2008 6:49:00 PM

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Confirmation (by Jayson S.) that there were
two versions of the 1949 edition of The Little
Red Book, the first with a printing error at
the top of page 62.

The first printing of The Little Red Book
appeared in 1946, two separate printings were
done in 1947, there was another printing in
1948, and there were two versions of the 1949
printing. Ed Webster kept on making changes in
the book during that period, and in fact kept
on making changes in the book all the way to
the end of his life (he died on June 3, 1971).

Tommy H. (Baton Rouge, Louisiana) had made a
study of the two 1947 printings in Message
4017 in the AAHistoryLovers, see
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/4017

He established that the one with the distinct-
ively red cover has to be the earlier of the
two 1947 printings. It says that it came out
in January 1947. The other 1947 printing,
which has a dull maroon cover, must have
appeared later in that year. This later
printing embodies a number of textual changes
which were carried over to the fourth and fifth
printings.

I first learned about the two versions of the
1949 printing in a telephone conversation which
I had with Jack H. in Scottsdale, Arizona. Jack
told me that the only difference between the
two versions was that the first copies off
the press were found on careful inspection to
have a minor typesetting error (a segment of
text inserted upside down) on one page. Not
many copies of the faulty version actually got
out to the public, but a few did. The type was
corrected, and the majority of the surviving
copies of the 1949 printing were then run off,
assembled, and bound without that printer's
error.

JAYSON S. HAS NOW WRITTEN AND CONFIRMED THIS:

"I noticed on your site it mentions that
there might be a printing variation of the
1949 version of The Little Red Book with a
typesetting error. I can verify that this
is correct. I own a copy having the error.
On page 62 the top two lines ARE upside down
on my copy. Just thought you'd like confirma-
tion of this."

Many thanks to Jayson for this information.

Tommy H. in Baton Rouge says that the 1950
edition says that it was the sixth printing,
the 1951 edition says that it was the seventh
printing, and so on. So it seems clear that
Ed Webster did not regard the two versions
which came out in 1949 as separate "printings"
or "editions" in the full sense. Perhaps the
best way of putting this, therefore, would be
to list the editions as follows:
______________________________

1st edition August 1946

2nd edition January 1947 (distinctively red
cover)

3rd edition later in 1947 (dull maroon cover)

4th edition 1948

5th edition 1949 (extant in two versions,
with a typesetting error in the top two lines
on page 62 in the earlier version)

6th edition 1950

7th edition 1951 (and so on)
______________________________

Jack H. argued that the 1949 edition should be
taken as a kind of benchmark version for many
purposes, since this was the last edition where
Dr. Bob had had any input into the book.

This was the simple "blue collar" instruction
book (as Ernie Kurtz has put it) on how to
work the twelve steps, the one which Dr. Bob
had requested the Akron AA group and their
midwestern friends to put together.

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++++Message 5384. . . . . . . . . . . . Early A.A. in Muncie, Indiana and in
Delaware County, Indiana
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/7/2008 5:42:00 PM

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"A Brief History of A.A. in Delaware County in
Indiana" by Bruce C. (Muncie, Indiana). How
A.A. began in Muncie and the surrounding parts
of east central Indiana, including Union City,
Dunkirk, Hartford City, Winchester, New Castle,
Yorktown, Montpelier, Anderson, Marion, Richmond,
and Cambridge City. Assembled from the New York
AA Archives and the A.A. Grapevine, together
with Indiana newspaper archives and the Ball
State University archives and special collec-
tions. New revised version, March 27, 2008.

http://hindsfoot.org/nmuncie1.pdf
______________________________

The A.A. archivists and historians from
northern and southern Indiana have been
cooperating to create a detailed history of
how A.A. came to Indiana, with each one
contributing a section on his or her part
of the state.

How A.A. Came to Indiana
http://hindsfoot.org/Nhome.html

Parts of it could perhaps be used as a model
for other states and provinces in the U.S.
and Canada. See for example:

Neil S. (Fishers IN),
"History of Indianapolis A.A."
http://hindsfoot.org/nindy2.html

"Adventure of Recovery: The Beginnings of
A.A. in Anderson, June 1943-February 9, 1947"
An article written by the A.A. group in
Anderson and published in their Handout
c. 1982, gives the story of George L., the
founder of A.A. in Anderson.
http://hindsfoot.org/nander1.html

Ilene S. (Warsaw, Indiana), "Historical
Highlights of the Monday Night Kosciusko
Combined Group." Early A.A. in Warsaw, North
Manchester, North Webster, Syracuse, South
Whitley, Columbia City, Milford, and other
nearby towns (including Rochester).
http://hindsfoot.org/nkosc1.html

Interview with John S. from Gary, Indiana,
by Beth M. (Lafayette), the chair of the
Area 22 Archives Committee.
http://hindsfoot.org/ngary1js.html

John Barleycorn, "A Nun's Story: Sister Ruth
Finds God in the A.A. Meetings," tells the
story of Sister Ruth, one of the inspiring
spiritual figures in A.A. in the Fort Wayne
area.
http://hindsfoot.org/barruth.html

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++++Message 5385. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Who are you to say there is no
God?
From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/5/2008 9:44:00 PM

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Mike,

That is only ONE example of how, without GSC
approval, the intent (big, bold letters for
emphasis) has been reduced to an afterthought
with the watering down to italics.

Who knows, by the time the Fifth Edition is
put out the beginning of the Fifth Chapter
might start off as "Hey, give it a try. Who
knows? You might even succeed."

- - - -

Shakey1aa at aol.com <Shakey1aa@aol.com> wrote:

In the 1st edit. Big Book(all printings) on
page 69 in the chapter We Agnostics, the
phrase "Who are you to say there is no God?"
is bold, double sized and not italicized.

I realize that a change in the Big Book
requires a conference action. I looked in
Advisory Actions of the General Service
Conference of AA 1951-1982 under literature
and saw no action to change this.

In the 2nd Ed. Big Book, on page 58 it is
no longer bold, double sized. It is now
italicized. Why?

The man that said this was Fitz M, "Our Southern
Friend." His story was quite edited from the
original.

Are there other examples of the same sentence
being used in a personal story and also in the
chapters up to Dr. Bob's story?

YIS
Shakey Mike Gwirtz
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA

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++++Message 5386. . . . . . . . . . . . Beatitudes for the begats
From: K G Jacob . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/6/2008 9:44:00 AM

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Dear Sirs

I am Jacob, an alcoholic.

In Twelve Steps & Twelve Traditions on page
30 we have the following quote:

"We were plumb disgusted with religion and all
its works. The Bible, we said, was full of
nonsense; we could cite it chapter and verse,
and we couldn't see the Beatitudes for the
'begats.'"

I find it impossible to understand the meaning
of "we couldn't see the Beatitudes for the
'begats.'"

I shall be most grateful if you could kindly
explain its meaning for me. Kindly note that
I am not a native English speaker, although
I am Christian and so am familiar with the
Bible.

Thanking you
Yours in fellowship
K G Jacob

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++++Message 5387. . . . . . . . . . . . Earliest Public Service video?
From: mrpetesplace . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/8/2008 11:49:00 AM

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I'm trying to find out what the earliest video
about AA for the public was available.

I just came across a full length version of
this news reel from 1946. I'd only seen 15
second clips in email until now. This version
is 5 minutes, 40 seconds long.

Is this the earliest P.I. type project?

And does anyone know who helped (for example
Bill W. or others) with this project?

Here are the details:

March of Time: Alcoholics Anonymous - 1946
news reel featuring a dramatic reenactment
of a newcomer's experience of AA.

I have this posted at aastuff.com right now.
Hope you all enjoy.

Peter F. - NC

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++++Message 5388. . . . . . . . . . . . Trust God, clean house, help others
From: Ernest Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/8/2008 2:55:00 PM

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Hi All --

I have been asked: Where and when is the
first citation for Dr. Bob's "prescription,"
or six-word summary treatment of the program
of Alcoholics Anonymous as:

1. Trust God
2. Clean house
3. Help others

???

I am not even certain that its originator is
Dr. Bob. To me, this sounds very Oxford Group.
But anyway: can any of you out there help on
the question[s] here?

With gratitude,

ernie kurtz

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++++Message 5389. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: the first twelve members of AA
From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/29/2008 7:35:00 PM

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In message 4418 from "greg merkel"
<gregandkathy41385@comcast.net>
(gregandkathy41385 at comcast.net)

TWO INCORRECT STATEMENTS WERE MADE:

1. THAT ERNIE GALBRAITH SHOWED UP SOBER
AT DR. BOB'S FUNERAL

"Hank Parkhust was one [of the first twelve
AA members who failed to stay sober] and so
was Ernie Galbraith. He showed up sober at
Dr. Bob's funeral."

2. THAT WILLIAM RUDDELL GOT SOBER IN
NOVEMBER 1935

Glenn C. gave a list of early AA members which
included this person from the New York City
area, whose story was put in the first edition
of the Big Book: "William Ruddell, sober
November 1935, A Businessman's Recovery."
______________________________

THE CORRECT INFORMATION IS:

1. IT WAS EDDIE REILLY WHO SHOWED UP SOBER
AT DR. BOB'S FUNERAL

See Message 3855 from "Tommy"
<recoveredbygrace@yahoo.com>
(recoveredbygrace at yahoo.com)

Children of the Healer: The Story of Dr.
Bob's Kids (Hazelden 1994 edition), page 126:

At Dr. Bob's funeral in 1950, Eddie showed up,
and told Dr. Bob's son Smitty that he had been
sober one year and was a member of the
Youngstown group.

Message 2337 from "ArtSheehan"
<ArtSheehan@msn.com> (ArtSheehan at msn.com)

Jun 11 (more likely Jun 18), Dr Bob suggested
that he and Bill W work with other alcoholics.
A local Minister, J C Wright, provided them
with a prospect. They tried in vain, throughout
the summer, to sober up Edgar (Eddie) Reilly
(described as an “alcoholic atheist” and “able
to produce a major crisis of some sort about
every other day”). Eddie missed the chance to
be AA #3 but he showed up at Dr Bob’s funeral
in 1950. He was sober a year and attending the
Youngstown, OH group. (AACOA 72-73, DBGO 77-81,
85, NG 37, 319, PIO 151-152, AAGA 184, CH
5-6)

2. WILLIAM RUDDELL GOT SOBER IN FEBRUARY 1937

William Ruddell's story, "A Business Man's
Recovery," can be read in Experience, Strength
& Hope: Stories from the First Three Editions
of Alcoholics Anonymous. On pages 30-31,
William Ruddell talked about meeting the AA
people and deciding to try their method of
turning to God in order to get sober. Then
in the middle of page 31, he said "That was
in February, 1937, and life took on an entirely
new meaning."
______________________________
______________________________
______________________________

ORIGINAL MESSAGE:
>
> Message 4413 from Aloke D. in India gave a
> list which was supposed to be the first twelve
> members of AA, and asked which ones failed
> to stay sober:
>
> Bill Wilson
> Dr. Bob Smith
> Bill Dotson
> Eddie Reilly
> Dr. McK.
> Bill Dotson
> Ernie Galbraith
> Hank Parkhurst
> Phil Smith
> Wes Wymans
> Fitz Mayo
> Freddie B. NY
> Brooke B. NY
>
> - - - -
>
> From: "greg merkel"
> <gregandkathy41385@comcast.net>
> (gregandkathy41385 at comcast.net)
>
> Hank Parkhust was one and so was Ernie Galbraith.
> He showed up sober at Dr. Bob's funeral.
>
> - - - -
>
> From the moderator, Glenn C. (South Bend, IN):
>
> That's not a very accurate list, to begin
> with. You've somehow or other got Bill Dotson
> on there twice, as was noted in messages sent
> in by:
>
> "John J. Clark" <johnnyjclark@...>
> (johnnyjclark at sbcglobal.net)
>
> "M.Eaton" <meaton1287@...>
> (meaton1287 at rogers.com)
>
> Shakey1aa@...
> (Shakey1aa at aol.com)
>
> Comments were also sent in suggesting that
> we can get too negativistically focused on
> failure, from
>
> Bill Lash <barefootbill@...>
> (barefootbill at optonline.net)
> "There is no such thing as a failure."
>
> "David Johnson" <crescentdave@...>
> (crescentdave at yahoo.com)
> "Failure is such a loaded word (pardon
> the inadvertent pun)."
>
> HERE IS A LIST OF EARLY AA MEMBERS which I
> assembled as part of a Big Book study.
> I cannot 100% guarantee the accuracy of this
> list, but I think it is nevertheless a more
> useful list than the list of twelve names
> which you have, for various reasons.
>
> (Big Book p. 159) Bill Wilson "leaving behind
> his first acquaintance [Dr. Bob], the lawyer
> [Bill Dotson], and the devil-may-care chap
> [Ernie Galbraith]" left Akron and took a
> train back home to New York in late August 1935.
> He had been in Akron a little over three months,
> most of it living in Dr. Bob and Anne Smith's
> home, where Bill and Dr. Bob had worked out
> the basic modifications which were going to
> have to be made to the Oxford Group methods so
> they would work better with alcoholics.
>
> (Big Book p. 159) "A year and six months later
> these three had succeeded with seven more,"
> that is, by the end of February 1937, there
> were a total of ten people in the Akron AA
> group. Among the early Akron AA's, some or
> all of the following people may have been
> included in that "seven more." For those
> whose stories appeared in the first edition
> of the Big Book, the title of the story is
> also given.
>
> We need to remember that at any given time,
> the count would have included people who had
> gotten sober but were not going to stay sober,
> and also people who got permanently sober in
> Akron but who then left to found AA groups
> in other cities, so it is probably impossible
> to completely reconstruct the list of seven
> people whom the Big Book authors were thinking
> of at this point.
>
> AKRON:
>
> Ernie Galbraith, "The Seven Month Slip," first
> got sober September 1935, but had continual
> trouble staying sober.
>
> Phil S., AA No. 5, sober September 1935,
> first AA court case.
>
> Tom Lucas, sober November 1935,
> "My Wife and I."
>
> Walter Bray, sober February 1936,
> "The Backslider."
>
> Joe Doppler, sober April 1936,
> "The European Drinker."
>
> Paul Stanley, sober April 1936,
> "The Truth Freed Me."
>
> Dick S. was regarded as AA No. 7.
>
> Bill V., Bob E., and Ken A. were all
> sober by 1937.
>
> James D. "J.D." Holmes, who founded the first
> AA group in Indiana, got sober in Akron in
> September 1936, and said that he was AA No. 10.
> But he had left Akron and gone to Evansville,
> Indiana, by the time the Big Book was written,
> so although he stayed sober till the end of
> his life, he was probably not counted among
> the seven people mentioned on page 159 of
> the Big Book.
>
> NEW YORK: during the same period, four of the
> people whose stories were in the first edition
> of the Big Book got sober in the New York area.
>
> Fitz Mayo, sober October 1935,
> "Our Southern Friend."
>
> Hank Parkhurst, sober November 1935,
> "The Unbeliever."
>
> William Ruddell, sober November 1935,
> "A Businessman's Recovery."
>
> Myron Williams, sober April 1936,
> "Hindsight."
>

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++++Message 5390. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Beatitudes for the begats
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/12/2008 8:20:00 PM

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In the King James Version (Authorized Version)
which was the principal English translation
of the Bible used from the seventeenth century
down the middle of the twentieth century:

THE BEATITUDES:

The Eight Beatitudes are found in the Gospel
of Matthew 5:3-10, at the beginning of Jesus'
Sermon on the Mount. They are called that

because in the Latin used in the medieval
Roman Catholic Church, beatus meant "blessed"
and beatitudo meant "blessedness."
______________________________

3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs
is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall
be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit
the earth.
6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst
after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall
obtain mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall
see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall
be called the children of God.
10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for
righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom
of heaven.
______________________________

THE "BEGATS":

A typical example can be found in the Gospel
of Matthew 1:1-16 of the long genealogies that
can be found in various places in the Bible.
In seventeenth century English, "begat" meant
"fathered." (Other examples of these long
genealogies can be found in Genesis 5, 10,
11, and 25; Ruth 4; and 1 Chronicles 1, 2, 4,
6, 8, and 9.)
______________________________

1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ,
the son of David, the son of Abraham.

2 Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob;
and Jacob begat Judah and his brethren; 3 and
Judah begat Pharez and Zerah of Tamar; and
Pharez begat Hezron; and Hezron begat Ram;
4 and Ram begat Ammin'adab; and Ammin'adab
begat Nahshon; and Nahshon begat Salmon; 5
and Salmon begat Boaz of Rachab; and Boaz
begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse;
6 and Jesse begat David the king. And David
the king begat Solomon of her that had been
the wife of Uri'ah; 7 and Solomon begat
Rehobo'am; and Rehobo'am begat Abi'jah; and
Abi'jah begat Asa; 8 and Asa begat
Jehosh'aphat; and Jehosh'aphat begat Jeho'ram;
and Jeho'ram begat Uzzi'ah; 9 and Uzzi'ah
begat Jotham; and Jotham begat Ahaz; and
Ahaz begat Hezeki'ah; 10 and Hezeki'ah begat
Manas'seh; and Manas'seh begat Amon; and Amon
begat Josi'ah; 11 and Josi'ah begat Jeconi'ah
and his brethren, about the time they were
carried away to Babylon. 12 And after they
were brought to Babylon, Jeconi'ah begat
She-al'ti-el; and She-al'ti-el begat Zerub'babel;
13 and Zerub'babel begat Abi'ud; and Abi'ud
begat Eli'akim; and Eli'akim begat Azor; 14
and Azor begat Zadok; and Zadok begat Achim;
and Achim begat Eli'ud; 15 and Eli'ud begat
Ele-a'zar; and Ele-a'zar begat Matthan; and
Matthan begat Jacob; 16 and Jacob begat
Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born
Jesus, who is called Christ.
17 So all the generations from Abraham to
David are fourteen generations; and from
David until the carrying away into Babylon
are fourteen generations; and from the
carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are
fourteen generations.
______________________________

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++++Message 5391. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Beatitudes for the begats
From: johnpublico . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/10/2008 9:20:00 AM

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Good question, Jacob. I think this quote
relates to the Book of Matthew.

In the first part (1:2-1:16) of the Book,
there are a lot of verses about biblical
genealogy (for example, "Abraham begat Isaac;
and Isaac begat Jacob"). The word "begat" is
an old-fashioned form of "beget", and it
simply means "sired" or "fathered."

Later in the Book of Matthew, there are verses
(5:3-5:10) related to the so-called "eight
beatitudes" of Christ. These tell us the
values that Christ cared most about. For
example, "Blessed are the merciful: for they
shall obtain mercy." Or, "Blessed are the
peacemakers: for they shall be called the
children of God."

These beatitudes are really core principles
of the Christian spiritual life. So, when
Bill says that he couldn't see the Beatitudes
from the 'begats,' he's telling us he couldn't
separate important spiritual principles from
the non-essential, formal elements of biblical
teaching.

It's much like the expression, that one
"can't separate the wheat from the chaff" or
"can't see the forest from the trees" -- it
just means you're not getting to the real
meaning of something.

Hope this helps.

John K.

- - - -

From: "jlobdell54" <jlobdell54@hotmail.com>
(jlobdell54 at hotmail.com)

The "Beatitudes" are of course the series of
"Blessed are the ..." in Matthew's Sermon on
the Mount, while the "begats" are in Genesis,
but also in the beginning of Matthew (echoing
Genesis) --

"and [so-and-so] lived [so many] years, and
he begat [son of so-and-so], and after he
begat [son of so and so] he lived [so-many-more]
years, and all the days of [so-and-so] were
[x hundred, x-ty, and x] years, and he died."

I am told there was an old New England
expression, "He can't see the Beatitudes for
the begats" (in other words, he gets involved
in unimportant details and can't see the
essential truth), but I haven't traced it
back.

- - - -

From: James Bliss <james.bliss@comcast.net>
(james.bliss at comcast.net)

The beatitudes are the list of 8 blessings at
the beginning of the sermon on mount .... The
begats would be a reference to the various
lists of the families 'Abraham was the father
of Isaac, Isaac the father of Jacob ....'

My reading of the statement is that we knew
the words of the Bible but not the true meaning
of the words. In my words, we knew the Bible
in our heads but not our hearts.

Jim

- - - -

From: Sober186@aol.com (Sober186 at aol.com)

What Bill was saying was that many alcoholics
would not wade through the boring stuff --
the begats -- to learn the really important
lessons found in the beatitudes.

Love and serve
Jim

- - - -

From: DudleyDobinson@aol.com
(DudleyDobinson at aol.com)

My understanding of this quote is that we can't
see the important things in life or the bible
(like the Beatitudes) because we cannot get
past the unimportant things (like the begats).

Another similar saying is "Can't see the forest
for the trees."

- - - -

From: S Sommers <scmws@yahoo.com>
(scmws at yahoo.com)

The way I've understood the expression about
"couldn't see the Beatitudes for the begats"
is that Bill W is combining the joke about
"not being able to see the forest for the
trees" with alliteration using a couple words
found nowadays almost exclusively in the Bible.
Bill is saying that we modern sophisticated
types get tangled in the language and don't
see the larger spiritual truths in scripture.

Like most wordy jokes, it loses much in the
explanation.

Thanks for everything.

Sam Sommers

- - - -

From: "elg3_79" <elg3_79@yahoo.com>
(elg3_79 at yahoo.com)

This dichotomy is in the Twelve Steps &
Twelve Traditions, in my humble opinion, to
distinguish the parts of the Bible with
positive exhortations toward spiritual living
from those which are historical or negatively
charged, and so encourage those (like myself)
who come to sobriety with an allergy to
religious literature.

YIS
Ted G.

- - - -

From: John Barton <jax760@yahoo.com>
(jax760 at yahoo.com)

Simply, it means we were clueless as to what
the verses meant in a spiritual sense. We
could cite chapter and verse but did not have
the ears to hear or the eyes to see .....
was blind but now I see .........

- - - -

From: "Mitchell K."
<mitchell_k_archivist@yahoo.com>
(mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com)

Like not seeing the forest for the trees. There
are those who memorize the Big Book and can
cite it chapter and verse. But how many of
those who can tell you on what line, page,
chapter in all four editions a certain phrase
can be found, still do not live the principles
of recovery in all their affairs?

- - - -

From: "hartsell" <hartsell@etex.net>
(hartsell at etex.net)

As with many such, this has entered into the
public conscience and is used for many
purposes other than its original intent --
as I read it -- to indicate the author's
confusion and, at the time, disdain for,
according to his then present perception,
contempt for the hypocricy of "religionists,"
only to come to understand that his own
hypocrisy was even worse.

sherry

- - - -

ORIGINAL MESSAGE:

Message #5386 from "K G Jacob"
<tvmdeps@gmail.com>
(tvmdeps@gmail.com)

In Twelve Steps & Twelve Traditions on page
30 we have the following quote:

"We were plumb disgusted with religion and all
its works. The Bible, we said, was full of
nonsense; we could cite it chapter and verse,
and we couldn't see the Beatitudes for the
'begats.'"

I find it impossible to understand the meaning
of "we couldn't see the Beatitudes for the
'begats.'"

I shall be most grateful if you could kindly
explain its meaning for me. Kindly note that
I am not a native English speaker.

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++++Message 5392. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Who are you to say there is no
God?
From: Steve Stevenson . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/10/2008 8:38:00 AM

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I was informed on this forum that Bill W.
was the one who moved the Dr.'s Opinion to the
Roman numeraled pages without Conference
approval.

If that is true, then changing some fonts
would also seem to be well within Bill's scope
of authority.

So, my question becomes, did the Conference
need to approve any changes in the book while
Bill was still alive?

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Shakey1aa@... wrote:
>
> In the 1st edit. Big Book(all printings) on
> page 69 in the chapter We Agnostics, the
> phrase "Who are you to say there is no God?"
> is bold,double sized and not italicized.
>
> I realize that a change in the Big Book
> requires a conference action. I looked in
> Advisory Actions of the General Service
> Conference of AA 1951-1982 under literature
> and saw no action to change this.
>
> In the 2nd Ed. Big Book, on page 58 it is
> no longer bold, double sized. It is now
> italicized. Why?
>
> The man that said this was Fitz M,"Our Southern
> Friend." His story was quite edited from the
> original.
>
> Are there other examples of the same sentence
> being used in a personal story and also in the
> chapters up to Dr. Bob's story?
>
> YIS
> Shakey Mike Gwirtz
> Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
>

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++++Message 5393. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Who are you to say there is no
God?
From: David . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/10/2008 11:26:00 PM

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Oh, I don't think we need to worry about that.
Style manuals are pretty unanimous in referring
to italicized words as being a way to draw
emphasis. They caution against their overuse,
as italicized words are meant to draw attention.
Then there's the actual meaning of the words
and they haven't changed.

I am curious, however, as to whether or not
we have the original script Fitz M wrote.
It would be instructive to review what was
edited and what remained the same. I would
especially be interested in whether or not he
oversized and bolded this phrase.

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Mitchell K."
<mitchell_k_archivist@...> wrote:
>
> Mike,
>
> That is only ONE example of how, without GSC
> approval, the intent (big, bold letters for
> emphasis) has been reduced to an afterthought
> with the watering down to italics.
>
> Who knows, by the time the Fifth Edition is
> put out the beginning of the Fifth Chapter
> might start off as "Hey, give it a try. Who
> knows? You might even succeed."
>
> - - - -
>
> Shakey1aa at aol.com <Shakey1aa@...> wrote:
>
> In the 1st edit. Big Book(all printings) on
> page 69 in the chapter We Agnostics, the
> phrase "Who are you to say there is no God?"
> is bold, double sized and not italicized.
>
> I realize that a change in the Big Book
> requires a conference action. I looked in
> Advisory Actions of the General Service

> Conference of AA 1951-1982 under literature
> and saw no action to change this.
>
> In the 2nd Ed. Big Book, on page 58 it is
> no longer bold, double sized. It is now
> italicized. Why?
>
> The man that said this was Fitz M, "Our Southern
> Friend." His story was quite edited from the
> original.
>
> Are there other examples of the same sentence
> being used in a personal story and also in the
> chapters up to Dr. Bob's story?
>
> YIS
> Shakey Mike Gwirtz
> Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
>

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++++Message 5394. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Trust God, clean house, help
others
From: Sober186@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/9/2008 9:02:00 PM

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Not exactly those words but very close. Big
Book, Page 98. "Burn the idea into the
consciousness of every man that he can get
well regardless of anyone. The only condition
is that he trust in God and clean house. Now,
the domestic problem: There may be divorce,
separation, or just strained relations."

- - - -

Original message #5388 from Ernest Kurtz
<kurtzern@umich.edu> (kurtzern at umich.edu)

Hi All --

I have been asked: Where and when is the
first citation for Dr. Bob's "prescription,"
or six-word summary treatment of the program
of Alcoholics Anonymous as:

1. Trust God
2. Clean house
3. Help others

???

I am not even certain that its originator is
Dr. Bob. To me, this sounds very Oxford Group.
But anyway: can any of you out there help on
the question[s] here?

With gratitude,

ernie kurtz

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++++Message 5395. . . . . . . . . . . . Other organizations using an
anonymity principle?
From: Fred . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/1/2008 11:56:00 PM

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Were there any other organizations or groups
prior to the beginning of the AA movement
which had similar principles of public
anonymity or statements about the need for
public anonymity?

Were there any other organizations or groups
which were practicing similar principles of
public anonymity during AA's early years?
That is, during the time when early AA was
struggling with Rollie Hemsley's public
announcement of his AA membership, Bill & Bob's
letterhead endorsement of Marty Mann's National
Council on Alcoholism, and such.

For example, like the Emanuel Movement,
Washingtonians, Oxford Group, etc. etc., etc.

Thanx For everything you all do,
Fred from Ohio

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++++Message 5396. . . . . . . . . . . . Joe D., The European Drinker
From: claus larosse . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/7/2008 2:27:00 PM

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Hallo. my name is Claus, and i am an Alkoholik.

I am a member of a Danish Big Book study group (SBS).

I am to do the introduction to the European
Drinker and since I'm in good time, I would
like to add some history facts to it.

I have found out the story is Joe D.'s, perhaps
the first Roman Catholic in AA.

I believe he was one of the reasons that
Dilworth Lupton (at the invitation of Dorothy
S., wife of Clarence S. "The Home Brewmeister"),
had written one of the first pamphlets about
AA, "Mister X and Alcoholics Anonymous." Even
though the pamphlet regards Clarence S., I have
a feeling Joe D. was the main reason Dilworth
Lupton would have anything to do with AA, since
the fact that Joe D.'s name came up in a
document finally convinced Dilworth Lupton
that AA finally was independent of the Oxford
group.

This may be incorrect and there might be more
to the story. Would some of you oldtimers care
to enlighten me?

Thank you, and thank you all for this wonderful
group.

Loving greetings Claus.

--
Knus.

Claus Rask Larosse
Stubdrupvej 211.
7100 Vejle
Tlf. 23252344

Reminder from GOD.

Practice Love, It is the great lesson. Do all
you can and leave the rest to Me. Fear not I
am your Advocate.

- - - -

From the moderator:

Nancy Olson's biography of Joe says that he
was from Cleveland and was probably the first
Roman Catholic in AA. We know that large
numbers of Roman Catholics in Cleveland became
interested in AA at a very early date, but
that most felt that they could not join as
long as AA was part of the Protestant Oxford
Group.

Clarence Snyder finally had to go to Dr. Bob
and insist that the Akron AA group make an
official break with the Oxford Group, for
the sake of these Roman Catholic alcoholics
in Cleveland.

But it was not just Roman Catholics who had
problems with the Oxford Group because of its
strong Protestant evangelical style. There
were Protestant denominations which had problems
with that kind of belief, including of course
the Unitarians.

Nancy Olson tells us that the Rev. Dilworth
Lupton, of the First Unitarian Church in
Cleveland, felt so negatively about the
Oxford Group and its practices, that he wanted
nothing at all to do with AA as long as it
was part of the Oxford Group.

(Richmond Walker, the author of Twenty-Four
Hours a Day, was from a Unitarian background.
His son told me that Rich continued to attend
the Unitarian Church all his life. Rich tried
to get sober in the Oxford Group, but only
lasted two and a half years before he relapsed.
It was too alien to his religious background.
His father had been an extreme Unitarian
who had been one of the signatories of the
Humanist Manifesto. Rich was only able to get
permanently sober after he joined the AA group
in Boston in May 1942, and began working out
his own kind of spirituality, which in many
ways had closer ties to the old New England
Transcendentalists than to any kind of Jesus-
oriented, bible-quoting, heavily evangelical
style. The Transcendentalists -- Ralph Waldo
Emerson, Henry David Thoreau, Orestes Brownson,
William Henry Channing, Bronson Alcott, and
so on -- had been part of the same world as
the early Unitarians.)

The Unitarians (like the Southern Methodists
who published the Upper Room) felt very
strongly that good spirituality had to
practice a spirit of tolerance, where men
and women of all sorts of different religious
traditions could learn to respect one another
and work with one another, as long as their
hearts were filled with love for their fellow
human beings. Good spirituality should be
inclusive instead of exclusive, reaching out
to our fellow human beings in love, instead
of mounting continual attacks on everybody
who did not believe exactly as we did. There
was too much in the Oxford Group, they
believed, of excluding people who were "not
maximum" (as they did with Bill Wilson in
New York) and other kinds of exclusiveness
in their approach.

Glenn C., South Bend, Indiana, USA

- - - -

http://www.a-1associates.com/westbalto/HISTORY_PAGE/Authors.htm

NANCY OLSON'S BIOGRAPHY

The European Drinker -- Joe Doppler (Doeppler?),
Cleveland, Ohio. Original Manuscript, p. 206
in 1st edition, p. 230 in 2nd and 3rd editions

Beer and wine were not the answer

Joe's date of sobriety was April 1936. He was 12th stepped by Dr. Bob, and
was
probably the first Roman Catholic in A.A.

He was born in Germany and grew up on "good Rhine wine of song and story."
His
parents wanted him to become a priest and he attended a Franciscan school at
Basle, Switzerland. But although he was a good Catholic, the monastic life
did
not appeal to him, so he became a harness-maker and upholsterer.

He drank about a quart of wine a day, which was common in his part of the
world.
Everybody drank wine.

He did his compulsory military service, and took part in the Boxer Rebellion
in
China. There he experimented with more potent beverages. When he returned to
Germany he resumed his wine drinking.

At age twenty-four, he came to America and settled in Cleveland where he had
relatives. He founded a mattress factory and was doing well with his general
upholstering work, and there was every indication that he would be
financially
independent by the time he was middle aged. By this time he was married and
was
paying for a home.

He thought American wine inferior to German so drank beer instead. When
Prohibition became law he quit drinking altogether, since he couldn't get
what
he liked. He hardly tasted anything for two years.

Soon like his friends, he began to drink home-brew, which was a lot stronger
than he had been used to. More and more he started doing some of his
business in
the speakeasy. There he could buy whiskey, which was easier to transport
than
beer or wine, and he developed a taste for hard liquor.

It soon became obvious that he had a problem with alcohol. He became a
periodic
drinker, and was eased out of the business he had founded and was reduced to
doing general upholstery in a small shop at the back of his house.

His wife complained about his drinking, so he hid bottles all over the
house. At
times he would resolve never to drink again and pour out full pints and
smash
the bottles, only to find himself frantically searching for any he missed so
he
could have a drink.

He began to absence himself from the church where he had formerly been a
member
of the choir. He never asked the priest to give him the pledge like many
other
Catholic alcoholics did. (It was common at that time for Roman Catholics who
had
problems with alcohol to pledge to a priest that they would stop drinking.
It
usually didn't work if the man was an alcoholic.)

Then occurred the event that saved him. Dr. Bob visited him. He did not ask
any
questions except whether he was definite about his desire to quit drinking.
There were no more than four or five in Dr. Bob's group at the time, but
they
befriended him. He was advised "You've been trying man's ways and they
always
fail. You can't win unless you try God's way."

He had no problem with what they were teaching him because his church taught
the
same thing. He put into practice what he was being taught and soon Dr. Bob
sent
him to talk to other alcoholics.

The first few months were hard: business trials, little worries, and
feelings of
general despondency nearly drove him to the bottle, but he made progress in
the
spiritual life.

"As I go along I seem to get strength daily to be able to resist more
easily.
And when I get upset, cross-grained and out of tune with my fellow man I
know
that I am out of tune with God. Searching where I have been at fault, it is
not
hard to discover and get right again, for I have proven to myself and to
many
others who know me that God can keep a man sober if he will let him."

Dorothy Snyder, the wife of Clarence Snyder ("The Home Brewmeister"), was
eager
to help this group reach other alcoholics. She approached Rev. Dilworth
Lupton,
of the First Unitarian Church in Cleveland, concerning the group, but he was
negative about the Oxford Group and wanted nothing to do with it. After the
Cleveland members broke away from the Oxford Group, she approached him
again,
this time with a copy of the book and with the names of some Roman Catholics
who
were members. Among the names was that of Joe Doppler. The fact Joe Doppler
was
associated with this new Cleveland group was sufficient proof to Reverend
Lupton
that the alcoholic fellowship had indeed broken with the Oxford Group, and
he
offered to help in any way he could.

He preached a sermon called "Mr. X. and Alcoholics Anonymous," which Dorothy
arranged to have covered by the press. It was later made into one of the
first
pamphlets used by Cleveland A.A.

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++++Message 5397. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Who are you to say there is no
God?
From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/12/2008 9:55:00 PM

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At 07:38 12/10/2008, Steve Stevenson wrote:

> I was informed on this forum that Bill W.
>was the one who moved the Dr.'s Opinion to the
>Roman numeraled pages without Conference
>approval.
>
>If that is true, then changing some fonts
>would also seem to be well within Bill's scope
>of authority.
>
>So, my question becomes, did the Conference
>need to approve any changes in the book while
>Bill was still alive?
>
>

I believe there were ninty-odd changes made
from the First Printing of the First Edition
thru the Sixteenth Printing of the First
Edition.

Since the Conference wasn't formed until some
time in the 1950s, the changes were certainly
made without its approval. Recall that when
the Big Book was published, there were only
about 100 members of A.A., hardly enough to
sustain a conference.

The wording of the 12th Step in the first
printing, "Having had a Spiritual Experience
as the result of these steps," caused a certain
amount of controversy at the time about what
sort of experience was necessary and valid.
As a result of this, the wording was changed
to what it is today in the Second Printing.
Appendix II "Spiritual Experience" was also
added.

I suspect Wilson tried to gauge what the
consensus was and put it into effect.

There are some who think Wilson saw that there
was a strong consensus not to make significant
changes to the Big Book and that motivated
him to write the 12x12 part on the Steps.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

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++++Message 5398. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Who are you to say there is no
God?
From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/13/2008 8:49:00 PM

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Hi Tommy

The basic text of the Big Book is pretty much
"protected" from radical change by the prevail-
ing sentiment of the AA Fellowship as a whole.
It has also been reinforced (particularly in
regard to the 4th edition) by Conference
advisory actions. Changes to the Big Book can
be accomplished by Conference advisory action.
I doubt though that they would get too far if
they were anything beyond very minor.

The 2nd edition Big Book was introduced at the
1955 International Convention in St Louis. That
same international convention approved the
permanent Conference Charter based on the
recommendation of the 5th General Service
Conference which also met in St Louis in 1955.
The Conferences began in 1951. Up to 1955 they
were considered "experimental."

Prior to publication of the 2nd edition (perhaps
the late 1940's) Bill W sensed that the
Fellowship was resistant to changing the basic
text of the Big Book. In his presentation to
the 1955 General Service Conference, he was
careful to inform them that the main objective
of the 2nd edition was to change the personal
stories to better reflect the makeup of the
membership. His report stated: "Not an iota"
of the first part of the text dealing with
recovery principles had been changed.

The inside of the dust jacket of the 2nd edition
states "Of course, the basic text itself, page
1 to page 165 [sic], remains substantially
unchanged. To the minds of most AAs, this should
stand as first written."

The page numbering of the 1st edition basic
text was 1 to 179 not 1 to 164. "The Doctors
Opinion" was originally page 1. "Bill's Story"
became page 1 in the 2nd edition. Nobody
really knows why Bill W renumbered the pages
but there is much creative and entertaining
speculation.

The 2006 Conference passed an advisory action
to add the word "largely" to the 2nd sentence
of the 2nd paragraph of the Preface to the
4th edition so that it reads "Therefore, the
first portion of this volume, describing the
AA recovery program, has been left largely
untouched in the course of revisions made for
the second, third and fourth editions." The
2006 Conference also made a similar change to
the introduction in the book "Experience,
Strength and Hope."

There have been many wording changes over the
years to the basic text (including two changes
to Step 12). The wording of Step 12 was first
changed in the 2nd printing of the 1st edition.
The term "spiritual experience" was changed to
"spiritual awakening" and "as the result of
these steps" was changed to "as the result of
those steps." Appendix II "Spiritual Experience"
was added. Father Ed Dowling expressed his
dissatisfaction with the change in his address
to the 1955 International Conference (see "AA
Comes of Age" pg 256). The wording of Step 12
was changed back to "as the result of these
steps" in 1956 in the 2nd printing of the 2nd
edition (there was no Conference advisory action
on this).

A number of web sites have tables that detail
the wording changes from edition to edition.

Several Conference advisory actions related to
the 4th edition specified that no changes were
to be made to the forewords, basic text,
appendices and "Dr. Bob's Nightmare." They
were to "remain as is." This pretty much
represents the ongoing sentiment of the AA
membership that emerged with 2nd edition (1955).

In the 4th edition, punctuation changes were
made to "Dr. Bob's Nightmare." It appeared that
the Trustee's Literature Committee was non-
responsive to the Conference's advisory actions
that the story "remain as is." It was likely
an honest mistake since there were so many
Conference advisory actions on the matter. In
two of those advisory actions, the Conference
authorized the Literature Committee to make
punctuation changes if they were done to correct
errors. On the other hand "remain as is" means
"remain as is." The 2003 Conference let the
changes stand. The 2004 Conference passed a
floor action to restore the original punctuation.

One more interesting change made by the
Conference was a statement in the 1st printing
of the 4th edition "Foreword to the Fourth
Edition" that read "Fundamentally, though,
the difference between an electronic meeting
and the home group around the corner is only
one of format." This didn't go over well and
the sentence was eliminated by advisory action
of the 2002 Conference.

Cheers
Arthur

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tom Hickcox
Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 8:55 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Who are you to say there is no God?

At 07:38 12/10/2008, Steve Stevenson wrote:

> I was informed on this forum that Bill W.
>was the one who moved the Dr.'s Opinion to the
>Roman numeraled pages without Conference
>approval.
>
>If that is true, then changing some fonts
>would also seem to be well within Bill's scope
>of authority.
>
>So, my question becomes, did the Conference
>need to approve any changes in the book while
>Bill was still alive?
>
>

I believe there were ninty-odd changes made
from the First Printing of the First Edition
thru the Sixteenth Printing of the First
Edition.

Since the Conference wasn't formed until some
time in the 1950s, the changes were certainly
made without its approval. Recall that when
the Big Book was published, there were only
about 100 members of A.A., hardly enough to
sustain a conference.

The wording of the 12th Step in the first
printing, "Having had a Spiritual Experience
as the result of these steps," caused a certain
amount of controversy at the time about what
sort of experience was necessary and valid.
As a result of this, the wording was changed
to what it is today in the Second Printing.
Appendix II "Spiritual Experience" was also
added.

I suspect Wilson tried to gauge what the
consensus was and put it into effect.

There are some who think Wilson saw that there
was a strong consensus not to make significant
changes to the Big Book and that motivated
him to write the 12x12 part on the Steps.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

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++++Message 5399. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: the first twelve members of AA
From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/13/2008 9:00:00 PM

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Bill R (Big Book story "A Business Man's
Recovery") was the first Board Chairman of
the Alcoholic Foundation.

He returned to drinking and had to resign
from the board in February 1939 after serving
less than 5 months.

He reputedly sobered up again but I don't
know the date. He passed away in 1962.

Cheers
Arthur

- - - -

Original message 5389
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/5389

<jax760@yahoo.com> (<jax760at yahoo.com) said that:

Bill R. got sober in February 1937, NOT
November 1935 (as incorrectly stated in an
earlier message).

Bill R.'s story, "A Business Man's
Recovery," can be read in Experience, Strength
& Hope: Stories from the First Three Editions
of Alcoholics Anonymous. On pages 30-31,
Bill R. talked about meeting the AA
people and deciding to try their method of
turning to God in order to get sober. Then
in the middle of page 31, he said "That was
in February, 1937, and life took on an entirely
new meaning."

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++++Message 5400. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Earliest Public Service video?
From: Chris Budnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/11/2008 4:57:00 AM

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I have an advertisement for The March of Time
that I have scanned. If interested in a copy,
email me:

<cbudnick@nc.rr.com> (cbudnick at nc.rr.com)

- - - -

March of Time: Alcoholics Anonymous - 1946
news reel featuring a dramatic reenactment
of a newcomer's experience of AA.

I have this posted at aastuff.com right now.
Hope you all enjoy.

Peter F. - NC

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++++Message 5401. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Other organizations using an
anonymity principle?
From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/13/2008 5:50:00 PM

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--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,
"Fred" <Fritz689@...> wrote:

> Were there any other organizations or groups
> prior to the beginning of the AA movement
> which had similar principles of public
> anonymity or statements about the need for
> public anonymity?

> For example, like the Emanuel Movement,
> Washingtonians, Oxford Group, etc., etc.

- - - -

I don't know about the Washingtonians, but I
do have some impressions of the other two
groups you mention. The Emmanuel movement was
really not a "movement" in the organizational
sense, really just the religious healing
philosophy of Elwood Worcester. He was the
rector of Emmanuel Episcopal church in Boston
and the main author of the two associated books.

http://hindsfoot.org/kDub2.html

McComb was his assistant, Peabody and Baylor
and others were trained by them. There were
spin-off clinics in New York and California,
possibly elsewhere, but none with a formal or
legal connection to the main clinic in Boston.
Peabody became independent, but that can't
really be called anonymity. He just wasn't
working for Worcester any more.

The Oxford Groupers, on the other hand, had
a somewhat deceptive form of anonymity which
they used when trying to get new people to
come to meetings. I've had a chance to read
through the papers of a few people who were
active members in the 1920s and 1930s, and
there is a pattern to the letters they sent
to old friends and acquaintances.

They would start out like an ordinary letter,
mentioning the last time they saw the person
or something about the family, then say some-
thing like "You know, I've been thinking. . ."
about how important it is for people of
conviction to live their convictions, etc.,
then say that they'd just recently been
invited to attend a meeting with some nice
people who had some of the same questions
. . ."I'm a pretty skeptical guy of course,
so I didn't expect to be impressed . . . But
you know, I got to thinking. . . Could there
actually be something to this? So I wondered
what you would think . . . I'm sending some
of the written material they gave me . . .
would appreciate your reaction . . . ."

This is all a paraphrase, of course, but you
get the idea. It is being written by someone
who is in fact deeply immersed in the group,
pretending to be "just checking them out,"
for purposes of recruitment. And these were
people who were scrupulously ethical in every
other respect. It isn't too hard to see how
the OG got a bad name.

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++++Message 5402. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Other organizations using an
anonymity principle?
From: John Lee . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/14/2008 1:46:00 PM

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Secret societies and fraternities have existed
in America since the early 1700s. Many of the
Founding Fathers were Freemasons. Skull and
Bones was formed at Yale in the early 1830s.
The "Know Nothing" Party was quite influential
in pushing a nativist agenda in the 1850s.
Rituals and teachings were secretive in these
organizations, limited to the initiated.

Alcoholics Anonymous has never been a secret
society; rather, it's always been a spiritual
service movement. Anonymity is cherished in AA
for purposes of service, equality and humility,
rather than for secrecy.

The 11th Tradition of AA requests anonymity
AT the level of press, radio and films,
indicating the exact point at which AA members
are anonymous. Co-founder Doctor Bob is quoted
in Doctor Bob and the Good Old Timers as
indicating that AA members shouldn't be so
anonymous that drunks can't find help. AA's
emphasis on the spiritual benefits of anonymity
is AA's distinctive contribution.

John Lee
Pittsburgh

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++++Message 5403. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill R
From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/14/2008 5:45:00 PM

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Bill R died sober 9 June 1961 (tape by Kathleen
R in GSO Archives, noted in the newsletter of
the Kirk/CAAS Collections at Brown, CULTURE
ALCOHOL & SOCIETY QUARTERLY, Vol. 3 no. 6),
and I have found no evidence that he drank in
1939, only that he feared drinking and possibly
that he had not been continuously sober since
first coming in.

Harry B., his successor, did drink at a bon
voyage party on one of the Queens, but he
died sober in the early/mid/1960s, with (I
think) more than twenty years sobriety.

Bill and Kathleen's daughter was the first
"AA baby" and btw there was an interesting
Grapevine article by Bill's nephew down in
Huntsville, Alabama a couple of years ago.

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++++Message 5404. . . . . . . . . . . . Stadium photos from International
Conventions
From: stockholmfellowship . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/14/2008 6:08:00 PM

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Does anyone know where I could find photos
from past International AA Conventions? I am
only interested in those huge stadium photos
of the tens of thousands of people attending
the main meetings.

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++++Message 5405. . . . . . . . . . . . Amend vs. amends, and Grammar
From: pauguspass . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/14/2008 10:28:00 PM

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Hi there,

There are little quirks in AA Speak that crop
up in meetings.

So I'm kind of stuck on 'amends.' We make
'amends' to another person (with an s on the
end). But can we make AN amend? I cannot
find 'amend' (without an s on the end) as a
noun.

If 'amend' isn't a noun, I'm going to have to
make amends to the person I told to use it as
one.

Thanks.

George Cleveland

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++++Message 5406. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Other organizations using an
anonymity principle?
From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/15/2008 9:21:00 AM

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Some Washingtonian accounts use initials rather
than names, some simply avoid indicating last
names or initials, but this is similar to news
items of the time generally (an account of a
duel, for example, might refer to Mr. A. B.
and Mr. A. H.). This may have been a carry-over
in America from British newspapers forced to
deal with 17th-19th century British libel law.
The "Experience Meeting" chapter in Tim
Arthur's Six Nights With the Washingtonians
would be a case in point. Though the original
query doesn't mention the Keeley League, we
might note the KL does not seem to have had
any anonymity provision -- but of course the
real point of contrast is the Oxford Group --
where the idea was to publicize "name"
conversions.

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++++Message 5407. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Other organizations using an
anonymity principle?
From: johnlawlee . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/15/2008 2:21:00 PM

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The Oxford Group "recruiters" didn't contact
others anonymously, Cora. They weren't sending
those recruitment letters without a signature
or return address. The OG approach might have
been misleading or disingenuous, but it wasn't
anonymous. I've been called dozens of times
for lunch, where the caller's true purpose was
to sell me something or get me to make a
charitable contribution. Those calls were
duplicitous, not anonymous.

John Lee
Pittsburgh

- - - -

Message 5401 from <corafinch@yahoo.com>
(corafinch at yahoo.com)

> The Oxford Groupers, on the other hand, had
> a somewhat deceptive form of anonymity which
> they used when trying to get new people to
> come to meetings. I've had a chance to read
> through the papers of a few people who were
> active members in the 1920s and 1930s, and
> there is a pattern to the letters they sent
> to old friends and acquaintances.
>
> They would start out like an ordinary letter,
> mentioning the last time they saw the person
> or something about the family, then say some-
> thing like "You know, I've been thinking. . ."
> about how important it is for people of
> conviction to live their convictions, etc.,
> then say that they'd just recently been
> invited to attend a meeting with some nice
> people who had some of the same questions
> . . ."I'm a pretty skeptical guy of course,
> so I didn't expect to be impressed . . . But
> you know, I got to thinking. . . Could there
> actually be something to this? So I wondered
> what you would think . . . I'm sending some
> of the written material they gave me . . .
> would appreciate your reaction . . . ."
>
> This is all a paraphrase, of course, but you
> get the idea. It is being written by someone
> who is in fact deeply immersed in the group,
> pretending to be "just checking them out,"
> for purposes of recruitment.

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++++Message 5408. . . . . . . . . . . . Thomas H. Uzzell''s later life
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/15/2008 2:54:00 PM

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Thomas H. Uzzell was a former editor of
Collier's magazine, taught for a while at
New York University, etc. He did the some
important editing on the Big Book manuscript
in Janury 1939, as we know.

See for example Message 2590:
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/2590

What information do we have about his LATER
life?

That is, in the years AFTER his work on the
Big Book manuscript in 1939?

Did he ever become an AA member? If not, do
we know why he was so interested in AA?

Was he married? Have children? Are any of his
family still living? Where was he living when
he died? Is there an obituary from the city
he died in?

It has been said by some sources that he
eventually went to teach at a university in
Oklahoma. Is this correct?

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++++Message 5409. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Thomas H. Uzzell''s later life
From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/15/2008 5:16:00 PM

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From CULTURE ALCOHOL & SOCIETY QUARTERLY
newsletter of Kirk/CAAS Collections at Brown
(Vol. 3 no. 6):

Notes: Early AA: Thomas Hayes Uzzell.

Thomas Hayes Uzzell (b. Denver Oct 25 1884
d. Los Angeles Nov 11 1975, who m. Camelia
Waite) had two children, one of whom,
Camelia Uzzell Berry, published a book OKLAHOMA
PRAIRIE PLOWED UNDER (Cortez CO: Mesa Verde
Press -- I think around 1998).

Uzzell was the son of Charles S Uzzell, the
"Rocky Mountain Evangelist" (1853-1890), who
d. in CA, and Estella Alexander Uzzell (b.
1861?), who remarried, a man named Frank May
(or Nay?), the same age she was: they had
children Lucile (b. 1893), Lloyd B. (b.
1896?), and John (b. 1899?), and lived in
Calumet IL in 1910, Tom Uzzell living with
them at that point.

(Charles S. Uzzell's older brother, converted
with him in 1871, was also Thomas H. Uzzell.)

Our Thomas H. Uzzell graduated Phi Beta Kappa
from the University of Minnesota, did graduate
work at Harvard and Columbia, was an editor
with the government in DC in 1917, living with
his wife at 4421 15th St, traveled to Europe
on economic investigation in 1919-20 and again
in 1920-21, was later with Collier's in NYC,
then ran a writer's school, the Thomas H.
Uzzell School (actually run, according to Mary
Cheever, who was briefly her secretary, by his
wife).

He wrote a number of books, including NARRATIVE
TECHNIQUE (1923), (ed) SHORT STORY UNITS
(2 vols 1933/34), TECHNIQUE OF THE NOVEL:
A HANDBOOK (1947, 1959), TWILIGHT OF SELF
GOVERNMENT (1961/2), and a novel GRANDEE JIM
(1973).

I ... emailed Clancy I in Long Beach/LA to
see if he knows if Bill W visited Tom Uzzell
at the time of the 1960 Convention [he
doesn't]. What I [also] don't know is whether
there was any particular personal connection
between Bill or any of the other early AAs
and Tom Uzzell, though Jim B’s history suggests
it was Hank P. who brought Tom into the
equation.

As far as later life is concerned, I haven't
been able to find out much -- Good luck!

> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
> From: glennccc@sbcglobal.net
> Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 11:54:19 -0800
> Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Thomas H. Uzzell's later life
>
> Thomas H. Uzzell was a former editor of
> Collier's magazine, taught for a while at
> New York University, etc. He did the some
> important editing on the Big Book manuscript
> in Janury 1939, as we know.
>
> See for example Message 2590:
> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/2590
>
> What information do we have about his LATER
> life?
>
> That is, in the years AFTER his work on the
> Big Book manuscript in 1939?
>
> Did he ever become an AA member? If not, do
> we know why he was so interested in AA?
>
> Was he married? Have children? Are any of his
> family still living? Where was he living when
> he died? Is there an obituary from the city
> he died in?
>
> It has been said by some sources that he
> eventually went to teach at a university in
> Oklahoma. Is this correct?

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++++Message 5410. . . . . . . . . . . . prayer request for Ray G.
From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/16/2008 10:42:00 PM

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Just got an e-mail message that Ray G. is
going in for surgery tomorrow (Wednesday) in
Florida. Please keep Ray in your thoughts
and prayers for a speedy recovery if that be
God's will.

Mitchell

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++++Message 5411. . . . . . . . . . . . Medical study, emotionally immature
and grandiose
From: edgarc@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/16/2008 4:56:00 AM

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In discussion of Step 12 in the Twelve and
Twelve, the text talks on page 123 of a
medical study that found AAs were in general
". . . childish, emotionally immature, and
grandiose . . ."

Any idea about who was involved in the study,
who underwrote it, where its results were
published, size and methodology of the
subject base, etc.?

Edgar C, Sarasota, Florida

- - - -

From the moderator: that phrase is taken from
the following passage from the Twelve and
Twelve Traditions, pp. 122-124:

But not so with alcoholics. When A.A. was
quite young, a number of eminent psychologists
and doctors made an exhaustive study of a
good-sized group of so-called problem drinkers.
The doctors weren't trying to find how different
we were from one another; they sought to find
whatever personality traits, if any, this
group of alcoholics had in common. They
finally came up with a conclusion that shocked
the A.A. members of that time. These
distinguished men had the nerve to say that
most of the alcoholics under investigation
were still childish, emotionally sensitive,
and grandiose.

How we alcoholics did resent that verdict! We
would not believe that our adult dreams were
often truly childish . . . . As to our
grandiose behavior, we insisted that we had
been possessed of nothing but a high and
legitimate ambition to win the battle of life.

In the years since, however, most of us have
come to agree with those doctors. We have had
a much keener look at ourselves and those
about us. We have seen that we were prodded
by unreasonable fears or anxieties into making
a life business of winning fame, money, and
what we thought was leadership. So false
pride became the reverse side of that ruinous
coin marked "Fear." We simply had to be number
one people to cover up our deep-lying inferior-
ities . . . .

But today, in well-matured A.A.'s, these
distorted drives have been restored to something
like their true purpose and direction. We no
longer strive to dominate or rule those about
us in order to gain self-importance. We no
longer seek fame and honor in order to be
praised . . . . True leadership, we find,
depends upon able example and not upon vain
displays of power or glory.

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++++Message 5412. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill R
From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/15/2008 5:36:00 PM

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At 16:45 12/14/2008, jlobdell54 wrote:

>Harry B., his successor, did drink at a bon
>voyage party on one of the Queens, but he
>died sober in the early/mid/1960s, with (I
>think) more than twenty years sobriety.

I assume you are referring the RMS Queen
Elizabeth and Queen Mary of the Cunard White
Star Line.

QE saw no service before WW2. QM saw civilian
service up until the outbreak of WW2 in Europe
the fall of 1939.

Both were laid up on the U.S. east coast
until they were converted to troop ships.
They did not return to civilian service until
1947, so Harry B's date of sobriety would
have to be either pre-1940 or post-1947 and
make the statement "more than twenty years
sobriety" an error.

>Bill and Kathleen's daughter was the first
>"AA baby" and btw there was an interesting
>Grapevine article by Bill's nephew down in
>Huntsville, Alabama a couple of years ago.

Grapevine articles are now available online,
although a subscription is required. Could
you give us some more specific info on the
article so those of us interested could
look it up?

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

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++++Message 5413. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Amend vs. amends, and Grammar
From: Edie Stanger . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/15/2008 10:24:00 PM

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In my 2,046-page Webster's New Twentieth
Century Dictionary, published in 1966 (but
I don't think changed since 1904), there is
no noun usage for amend, only a verb.

Actually, when you find you are wrong, you
can promptly admit it, more in the spirit
of the 10th step.

Edie Stanger

- - - -

From the moderator:

The verb is to "amend."

The noun is "amends" with an "s" on the
end, whether we are talking about correcting
one harm or many.

It's strange, since I have often heard AA
people talk about "making an amend" with no
"s" on the end, but in all the English
dictionaries I have checked (and also in
all the dictionaries which the other people
below have looked at) there is apparently no
such word in good English usage.

The noun is "amends" with an "s" on the end,
whether it is singular or plural. So if I
have to go to three people and repair some harm
which I did to each of them (three different
acts of amendment), I say "I must make SOME
amends." If I have to go to one person and
repair a harm which I did to that person, I
say "I must make AN amends."

I think it's important to realize though,
that nobody ever got sober by learning how
to talk about the program grammatically,
and likewise nobody ever failed to get sober
just because he or she did not know good
grammar.

- - - -

Similar remarks also received from:

james ryan <elephant_7@yahoo.com>
(elephant_7 at yahoo.com)
We can say "I have THE scissors," even
though the word is plural.

<stockholmfellowship@gmail.com>
(stockholmfellowship at gmail.com)

<Sober186@aol.com> (Sober186 at aol.com)

John Barton <jax760@yahoo.com>
(jax760 at yahoo.com)

I.e., "amend" is the verb and "amends"
is the noun, even if it is just one amends
that we are making.

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++++Message 5414. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Amend vs. amends, and Grammar
From: Margaretha H . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/17/2008 11:04:00 PM

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v.Â Â aÂ·mendÂ·ed, aÂ·mendÂ·ing, aÂ·mends

v.Â Â tr.

1. To change for the better; improve: amended the earlier proposal so as to
make it more comprehensive.
2. To remove the faults or errors in; correct. See Synonyms at correct.
3. To alter (a legislative measure, for example) formally by adding,
deleting,
or rephrasing.
4. To enrich (soil), especially by mixing in organic matter or sand. v.Â Â
intr.
To better one's conduct; reform.

[Middle English amenden, from Old French amender, from Latin Ä“mendÄre
: Ä“-,
ex-, ex- + mendum, fault.]
aÂ·mend'aÂ·bleadj., aÂ·mend'ern.

amends Usage Examples
Preposition: on
* minute: He made amends on 30 minutes with a carbon copy move.
Noun used with modifier
* clause: This clause amends section 63 of the 1983 Act.
* section: This section amends section 30 of the 1998 Act.
Adjective modifier
* direct: Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when
to
do so would injure them or others.
* full: By this, I was sure his wife had made him full amends for once.
* necessary: To those advertisers whose targets were missed, we will make
the
necessary amends.
* such: If they failed to make such amends, they were not only damned by
society but damned in the next world.
* partial: So I set off to The Shepherds Bush Empire the other day to make
partial amends.
Converse of object
* make: I hope to make amends early in the New Year.
Modifies a noun
* regulation: Regulation 10 amends regulation 44, which defines an eligible
child for the purpose of children's pension rights.
* section: Section 1 of the Act amends section 61 of the 1991 Act.
* paragraph: Paragraph 3 of Schedule 4 amends paragraph 6(2 ) of Schedule 3
of
the DDA 1995.
* rule: Paragraph 13 amends rule 5 of those rules to apply the provisions
about
answers to applications under Schedule 6 to the 2004 Act.
* part: Schedule 1 amends Part I of the 2002 Act to effect this transfer of
functions.
* minute: The re-signing did make amends minutes later, however, when diving
to
deny Edwards.
Preposition: in
* minute: Jensen more than made amends in the 12th minute when a quick
one-two
with Graham Stuart set him free on the left of goal.
Preposition: for
* mistake: Making amends for the mistakes in the last 10 years will mean
hard
work & bridge building.
* defeat: Rotherham were quick out the blocks, looking as if they were eager
to
make amends for defeats in their last two games.
* harm: We also expect the young person to take action to make amends for
the
harm they have caused.
* year: Will Chris be able to make amends for the past years?
amends Quotes
Lord, won't you buy me a Mercedes-Benz, My friends all drive Porsches, I
must
make amends.
Joplin,Janis

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++++Message 5415. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Stadium photos from
International Conventions
From: Chris Budnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/15/2008 7:31:00 PM

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One source is

http://www.faingoldphoto.com/paypalorder.php

Chris B.

- - - -

Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 6:09 PM
Subject: Stadium photos from International Conventions

Does anyone know where I could find photos
from past International AA Conventions? I am
only interested in those huge stadium photos
of the tens of thousands of people attending
the main meetings.

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++++Message 5416. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Bill R
From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/15/2008 8:08:00 PM

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Hi Jared

"AA Comes of Age" (pg 152) states: "Our first
Board consisted of five Trustees. Dick
Richardson, Frank Amos, and Dr. Strong were
the nonalcoholic members, and we chose Dr. Bob
and one of the New York A.A.'s as the
alcoholic contingent. The New York member
soon got drunk, but this possibility had been
foreseen. Drunkenness on the part of an
alcoholic Trustee meant immediate resignation.
Another alcoholic was named in the drunken
brother's place and we proceeded to business.
It was May, 1938."

The date of May 1938 cannot be accurate since
the Alcoholic Foundation wasn't established
until August 5, 1939. An end note in "Not God"
(pg 330 ref 24) states "On AACA p 152 Wilson
dates the actual Foundation as from 'May 1938':
erroneous, and another example of his lack of
memory for dates."

"Pass It On" (pg 188) states: "It was finally
agreed that the trust would be called the
Alcoholic Foundation. Its board of trustees
was formally implemented on August 11, 1938,
with five members, three of whom were
nonalcoholics: Richardson, Amos and John Wood.
The alcoholic members were Dr Bob and Bill R
of the New York area. The trust agreement
stipulated that an alcoholic trustee would
have to resign immediately if he got drunk.
(This actually happened in the case of the
New York member, and he was replaced forthwith)."

The text of Bob P's "unofficial" history of
AA states: "One of the provisions of the
trust agreement stipulated that an alcoholic
trustee would have to resign immediately if
he drank. Unfortunately, this happened within
a few months to Bill R."

I'm in possession of two lists naming the
board Trustees up to 1990. One list is in
alphabetic sequence, the other in chronological
sequence. They were prepared in 1990 by GSO
for incoming Trustees (one of which was a past
Delegate from my Area who had been elected
Trustee-at-large). Both lists indicate that
Bill R served on the board from 8/11/38 to
2/39 when he resigned. He was almost immediately
allowed to serve on the "Advisory Committee"
(with Bill W, Hank P, Morgan R and others)
and continued on the Advisory Committee from
2/39 to 4/42. Both lists state that Bill R
died in 1962 (which appears to be another date
error based on the references stated below).

Both lists show alcoholic Harry B (Big Book
story "A Different Slant) as taking office on
6/39 and resigning in 12/39 (he got drunk as
well). This gave impetus to the practice of
having a nonalcoholic board chair ever since.
(Although that might change sometime in the
future based on a recent Conference advisory
action).

Cheers
Arthur

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jlobdell54
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 4:45 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Bill R

Bill R died sober 9 June 1961 (tape by Kathleen
R in GSO Archives, noted in the newsletter of
the Kirk/CAAS Collections at Brown, CULTURE
ALCOHOL & SOCIETY QUARTERLY, Vol. 3 no. 6),
and I have found no evidence that he drank in
1939, only that he feared drinking and possibly
that he had not been continuously sober since
first coming in.

Harry B., his successor, did drink at a bon
voyage party on one of the Queens, but he
died sober in the early/mid/1960s, with (I
think) more than twenty years sobriety.

Bill and Kathleen's daughter was the first
"AA baby" and btw there was an interesting
Grapevine article by Bill's nephew down in
Huntsville, Alabama a couple of years ago.

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++++Message 5417. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Bill R
From: Laurence Holbrook . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/17/2008 4:57:00 PM

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Check the following artivcle:

May 2006
Vol. 62 No. 12
The Big Book Connection

A message left behind

"I knew through family stories that my uncle,
Bill R., had found AA. I never dreamed that
first contact had come in 1937. The family
stories also implied that one should exercise
caution around that part of the family. Uncle
Bill was hanging out with a strange group of
people, they said, and probably giving up all
the family secrets. As I read his story, "A
Business Man's Recovery," many of the family
tales of his wild adventures throughout Europe
and South America began to make sense. An
entirely different picture of him and my
relationships to the family emerged ....
Andy R.
Huntsville, Alabama"

-----------------------
Larry Holbrook
Email@LaurenceHolbrook.com
(410) 802-3099

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++++Message 5418. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Medical study, emotionally
immature and grandiose
From: John Lee . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/17/2008 3:40:00 PM

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My memory is that the study was done at Yale
in the 1940s, although I'd have to review my
old research to confirm. It doesn't really
matter which doctors developed the study. The
story is a hoot. AA sent the cream of its
membership to these doctors. AA didn't send
the washouts, it sent its rousing successes.
The idea was to look for a common denominator
which would predict success in AA. The study
proved to be the proverbial "pie in the face"
for the Fellowship. It took a big spoonful of
humility and self-deprecation to mention the
Yale study in Twelve and Twelve. What we have
in common is childishness, hypersensitivity
and grandiosity. Thanks, Doc, I feel so much
better.

John Lee
Pittsburgh

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++++Message 5419. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Medical study, emotionally
immature and grandiose
From: James Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/17/2008 4:13:00 PM

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Edgar wrote
In discussion of Step 12 in the Twelve and
Twelve, the text talks on page 123 of a
medical study that found AAs were in general
". . . childish, emotionally immature, and
grandiose . . ."

This is transcribed from a talk given by Bill W.

Some years ago the doctors began to look at
Alcoholics Anonymous and they got about thirty
of us together and they said to themselves
"Well, now that these fellows are in A.A.,
and they won't lie so badly, and maybe for the
first time we'll get a good look at what the
interior of a drunk is like." So a number of
us were examined at great length by psychia-
trists, and all sorts of tests taken, and the
object of this particular inquiry was to see
whether alcoholics as a class differed from
other people, and if they did, just why and
how much.

A number of us were invited to attend the
conclave, and a number of learned papers were
read, and finally one of these physicians (a
very noted one - the meeting took place at the
New York Academy of Medicine) began to sum up
what he thought the conclusion which they had
arrived at was this: that the alcoholic is
emotionally on the childish side. That the
alcoholic is a person who is more sensitive
emotionally than the average person. And
then, they ascribed another quality to us -
they used the word "grandiosity," they were
grandiose (meaning by that that as a type we
were what you might call "All or nothing
people.") Someone once described it by saying
all alcoholics hanker for the moon when perhaps
the stars would have done just as well. As
a class, we're like that, said the doctors.
(Memphis, Tenn., Sept.18-20, 1947)

The paper by Howard W. Haggard, The Physician
and the Problem of Alcoholism
Bull.N.Y. Acad Med 1945 Sept, 21 (9) 451-466

Can be read here:

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1870440&tool=pmcen
trez

Jim

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++++Message 5420. . . . . . . . . . . . Re:Medical study, emotionally
immature and grandiose
From: Doris Ringbloom . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/17/2008 5:08:00 PM

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A book titled Matt Talbot by Morgan Costelloe has

"American authorities on alcoholism hold that
the following psychological traits are commonly
found in alcoholics:

1. A high level of anxiety in interpersonal relations
2. Emotional immaturity
3. Ambivalence towards authority
4. Low frustration tolerance
5. Low self-esteem
6. Perfectionism
7. Guilt
8. Feelings of isolation"

Doesn't give a reference but might be the same
study and give another point to research from

For what it's worth.

Doris

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++++Message 5421. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Bill R
From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/17/2008 6:05:00 PM

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It was in 1939, therefore QM, as you point out.
I believe he got sober by 1941, which, given
his death in (I think Jan) 1966, sober, gives
him "more than twenty years sobriety" --
probably twenty-five -- when he died.

The article (by Andy R., about getting his
uncle's 1939 Big Book, with his name already
in it) was in May, and I believe it was
May 2006 -- but it might have been 2005.

> From: cometkazie1@cox.net
> Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 16:36:24 -0600
> Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Bill R
>
> I assume you are referring the RMS Queen
> Elizabeth and Queen Mary of the Cunard White
> Star Line.
>
> QE saw no service before WW2. QM saw civilian
> service up until the outbreak of WW2 in Europe
> the fall of 1939.
>
> Both were laid up on the U.S. east coast
> until they were converted to troop ships.
> They did not return to civilian service until
> 1947, so Harry B's date of sobriety would
> have to be either pre-1940 or post-1947 and
> make the statement "more than twenty years
> sobriety" an error.
>
> Grapevine articles are now available online,
> although a subscription is required. Could
> you give us some more specific info on the
> article so those of us interested could
> look it up?
>
> Tommy H in Baton Rouge

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++++Message 5422. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Bill R
From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/18/2008 11:51:00 AM

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Hi! Art -- The date in AACOA is wrong and I'm not
sure I trust Bill's memory even for the sequence of events
with Bill R. That he resigned in Feb '39 and was immediately
placed on the Advisory Board is presumably true, but my
belief (and I've listened to Kathleen's tape and to
Thomas Kean B's tape several times) is that the drinking
was earlier, before he was put on the Foundation Board.
I say "presumably true" but note that AACOA says he
was immediately replaced by Harry C. B., while GSO
has a time from 2/39 to 6/39 before the replacement.
And the 12/39 date for Harry's resignation can't be right
if he resigned immediately upon drinking at a bon voyage
party on the QM.

> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
> From: ArtSheehan@msn.com
> Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 19:08:12 -0600
> Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: Bill R
>
> Hi Jared
>
> "AA Comes of Age" (pg 152) states: "Our first
> Board consisted of five Trustees. Dick
> Richardson, Frank Amos, and Dr. Strong were
> the nonalcoholic members, and we chose Dr. Bob
> and one of the New York A.A.'s as the
> alcoholic contingent. The New York member
> soon got drunk, but this possibility had been
> foreseen. Drunkenness on the part of an
> alcoholic Trustee meant immediate resignation.
> Another alcoholic was named in the drunken
> brother's place and we proceeded to business.
> It was May, 1938."
>
> The date of May 1938 cannot be accurate since
> the Alcoholic Foundation wasn't established
> until August 5, 1939. An end note in "Not God"
> (pg 330 ref 24) states "On AACA p 152 Wilson
> dates the actual Foundation as from 'May 1938':
> erroneous, and another example of his lack of
> memory for dates."
>
> "Pass It On" (pg 188) states: "It was finally
> agreed that the trust would be called the
> Alcoholic Foundation. Its board of trustees
> was formally implemented on August 11, 1938,
> with five members, three of whom were
> nonalcoholics: Richardson, Amos and John Wood.
> The alcoholic members were Dr Bob and Bill R
> of the New York area. The trust agreement
> stipulated that an alcoholic trustee would
> have to resign immediately if he got drunk.
> (This actually happened in the case of the
> New York member, and he was replaced forthwith)."
>
> The text of Bob P's "unofficial" history of
> AA states: "One of the provisions of the
> trust agreement stipulated that an alcoholic
> trustee would have to resign immediately if
> he drank. Unfortunately, this happened within
> a few months to Bill R."
>
> I'm in possession of two lists naming the
> board Trustees up to 1990. One list is in
> alphabetic sequence, the other in chronological
> sequence. They were prepared in 1990 by GSO
> for incoming Trustees (one of which was a past
> Delegate from my Area who had been elected
> Trustee-at-large). Both lists indicate that
> Bill R served on the board from 8/11/38 to
> 2/39 when he resigned. He was almost immediately
> allowed to serve on the "Advisory Committee"
> (with Bill W, Hank P, Morgan R and others)
> and continued on the Advisory Committee from
> 2/39 to 4/42. Both lists state that Bill R
> died in 1962 (which appears to be another date
> error based on the references stated below).
>
> Both lists show alcoholic Harry B (Big Book
> story "A Different Slant) as taking office on
> 6/39 and resigning in 12/39 (he got drunk as
> well). This gave impetus to the practice of
> having a nonalcoholic board chair ever since.
> (Although that might change sometime in the
> future based on a recent Conference advisory
> action).
>
> Cheers
> Arthur
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jlobdell54
> Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 4:45 PM
> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Bill R
>
> Bill R died sober 9 June 1961 (tape by Kathleen
> R in GSO Archives, noted in the newsletter of
> the Kirk/CAAS Collections at Brown, CULTURE
> ALCOHOL & SOCIETY QUARTERLY, Vol. 3 no. 6),
> and I have found no evidence that he drank in
> 1939, only that he feared drinking and possibly
> that he had not been continuously sober since
> first coming in.
>
> Harry B., his successor, did drink at a bon
> voyage party on one of the Queens, but he
> died sober in the early/mid/1960s, with (I
> think) more than twenty years sobriety.
>
> Bill and Kathleen's daughter was the first
> "AA baby" and btw there was an interesting
> Grapevine article by Bill's nephew down in
> Huntsville, Alabama a couple of years ago.
>

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++++Message 5423. . . . . . . . . . . . Study, grandiosity, source of
comment
From: edgarc@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/18/2008 5:29:00 AM

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This paper (noted below) was cited, but there
is no mention of grandiosity, or any kind of
study by any group of respected doctors. It is
a terrific piece of work, worth reading and
realizing that some medicos were far ahead of
their time, like Haggard, in understanding what
drives the practicing drunk.

Edgar C, Sarasota, Fla.

- - - -

In a message dated 12/18/2008 10:08:37 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com writes:

The paper by Howard W. Haggard, The Physician
and the Problem of Alcoholism
Bull.N.Y. Acad Med 1945 Sept, 21 (9) 451-466

Can be read here:

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1870440&tool=pmcen
trez

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++++Message 5424. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Medical study, emotionally
immature and grandiose
From: John Lee . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/18/2008 10:36:00 AM

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Howard Haggard was the Yale professor whose
name I was trying to recall. He was the
Director of Yale's Section on Alcohol Studies
in the 1930s and 1940s. While his discipline
was applied physiology, Doctor Haggard had
a long time interest in research in alcohol.
In 1945 Doctor Haggard co-authored with
Yale's E.M. Jellnick Alcohol Explored. While
Haggard's 1945 paper was presented to the
New York Medical Society, the actual studies
of the alcoholics was done on the Yale campus.
Yale University eventually dropped applied
research, and the School of Alcohol Studies
was moved to Rutgers University in 1962.
[I've parked next to the Brinkley Smithers
School of Alcohol Studies while attending
basketball games at Rutgers].

John Lee
Pittsburgh

--- On Wed, 12/17/08, James Blair <jblair@videotron.ca> wrote:

From: James Blair <jblair@videotron.ca>
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Medical study, emotionally immature and
grandiose
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, December 17, 2008, 4:13 PM

Edgar wrote
In discussion of Step 12 in the Twelve and
Twelve, the text talks on page 123 of a
medical study that found AAs were in general
". . . childish, emotionally immature, and
grandiose . . ."

This is transcribed from a talk given by Bill W.

Some years ago the doctors began to look at
Alcoholics Anonymous and they got about thirty
of us together and they said to themselves
"Well, now that these fellows are in A.A.,
and they won't lie so badly, and maybe for the
first time we'll get a good look at what the
interior of a drunk is like." So a number of
us were examined at great length by psychia-
trists, and all sorts of tests taken, and the
object of this particular inquiry was to see
whether alcoholics as a class differed from
other people, and if they did, just why and
how much.

A number of us were invited to attend the
conclave, and a number of learned papers were
read, and finally one of these physicians (a
very noted one - the meeting took place at the
New York Academy of Medicine) began to sum up
what he thought the conclusion which they had
arrived at was this: that the alcoholic is
emotionally on the childish side. That the
alcoholic is a person who is more sensitive
emotionally than the average person. And
then, they ascribed another quality to us -
they used the word "grandiosity, " they were
grandiose (meaning by that that as a type we
were what you might call "All or nothing
people.") Someone once described it by saying
all alcoholics hanker for the moon when perhaps
the stars would have done just as well. As
a class, we're like that, said the doctors.
(Memphis, Tenn., Sept.18-20, 1947)

The paper by Howard W. Haggard, The Physician
and the Problem of Alcoholism
Bull.N.Y. Acad Med 1945 Sept, 21 (9) 451-466

Can be read here:

http://www.pubmedce ntral.nih. gov/articlerende r.fcgi?artid= 1870440&tool=
pmcentrez

Jim

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++++Message 5425. . . . . . . . . . . . Now we are thousands passage
From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/17/2008 9:09:00 PM

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Interestingly enough I have found the source
of the text for "Now We are Thousands" which
was inserted as page 391 in the second printing
of the first edition Big Book. It was taken
from an eighteen page letter Bill wrote to
the trustees in October of 1940. Below are the
first few paragraphs of Bill's letter to the
trustees and the original text which appeared
in the second and third printings on page 391.

Oct 1, 1940

To The Trustees
The Alcoholic Foundation
New York City

Gentlemen;

To facilitate the trustees meeting projected
for the middle of October I think it may prove
helpful to review the work of A.A. from April
1939, when our book "Alcoholics Anonymous"
appeared, down to the present moment. From
such a record, together with running comment
thereon, we may be able to draw some conclus-
ions as tour future requirements and policy.

Let us first consider the growth of the work
by numbers and by new localities to which it
has spread.

(Begin Text)

When the book appeared in April of last year we had approximately one
hundred members. Two-thirds of them were at Akron, Ohio, or nearby
communities in the northern part of that state. Most of the remainder
were in or near New York City and a few others were scattered along the
Atlantic Seaboard. The work had then been in existence over four years.
It had been satisfactorily demonstrated that at least two out of three
alcoholics who wished to get well could apparently do so,
notwithstanding the fact that their chance of recovery upon any other
medical or spiritual basis had been almost nil—perhaps not more than
two percent..

Publication of the book, which set down our experience and technique at
length, brought us into a new and unexplored phase which meant an
attempt to carry the work to other localities, widespread publicity, and
the exposure of our methods to the test of approval or disapproval by
religion, medicine, and the general public-an uncharted field indeed.
Would theologians complain of our lack of orthodoxy? Would physicians
frown upon the idea of banding together swarms of neurotic alcoholics
for mutual aid through a religious common denominator? Would reviewers
and columnists ridicule the religious content of the work, thus
prejudicing the men and women we were trying to help? Would alcoholic
men and women and their families be convinced by the book and the
attendant publicity that here at last was a solution? Such were the
uncertainties of April 1939.

NOW WE ARE THOUSANDS. – p.391

WHEN this book appeared in April 1939 there were approximately 100 A.A.
members. Two thirds of them were at Akron, Ohio, or nearby communities
in the northern part of that state. Most of the remainder were in or
near New York City and a few others were scattered along the Atlantic
Seaboard. The work had then been in existence over four years. It had
been satisfactorily demonstrated that at least two out of three
alcoholics who wished to get well could apparently do so,
notwithstanding the fact that their chance of recovery upon any other
medical or spiritual basis had been almost nil-a small percentage at
best.

Publication of the book, which set down our experience and methods at
length, opened a new and unexplored phase which meant an attempt to
carry the work to other localities, widespread publicity, and the
exposure of our methods to the test of approval or disapproval by
religion, medicine, and the general public-an uncharted field indeed.
Would theologians complain of our lack of orthodoxy? Would physicians
frown upon the idea of banding together great numbers of alcoholics for
mutual aid through a religious common denominator? Would reviewers and
columnists ridicule the religious content of the work, thus prejudicing
the men and women we were trying to help? Would alcoholic men and women
and their families be convinced by the book and the attendant publicity
that here at last was a solution? Such were the uncertainties of April
1939.

(End Text)

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++++Message 5426. . . . . . . . . . . . A group may request that only home
group members vote
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/19/2008 4:47:00 PM

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In Message 2713 (back in October 2005), I
made an incorrect statement, which has just
been drawn to my attention by John Barton
<jax760@yahoo.com> (jax760 at yahoo.com).

I said (referring to the Twelve Concepts) that:

"It is also stated in the concepts that when
an individual AA group is holding a group
conscience session, the only people who are
allowed to speak and vote are those who have
been attending that group regularly for a
considerable period of time, and actively
participating in the group and its activities."

I read that in a notebook or handbook of some
sort, which was kept by the secretary of one
of the intergroups in my part of Indiana, and
mistakenly thought this idea was part of the
Twelve Concepts. In fact the notebook or
handbook contained all sorts of useful
conference material, including not only the
Twelve Concepts, but also many other things.

I started checking through various pieces of
AA conference literature this afternoon,
trying to find what I had actually read, and
discovered that the passages that had caught
my eye came from the conference pamphlet on
"The A.A. Group." This can be read online at:

http://www.aa.org/en_pdfs/p-16_theaagroup.pdf

The conference pamphlet on "The A.A. Group"

pages 13-14

The A.A. Home Group

Traditionally, most A.A. members through the years
have found it important to belong to one group which
they call their "Home Group." This is the group where
they accept service responsibilities and try to sustain
friendships. And although all A.A. members are
usually welcome at all groups and feel at home at any
of these meetings, the concept of the "Home Group"
has still remained the strongest bond between the A.A.
member and the Fellowship.

With membership comes the right to vote upon
issues that might affect the group and might also
affect A.A. as a whole—a process that forms the very
cornerstone of A.A.’s service structure. As with all
group-conscience matters, each A.A. member has one
vote; and this, ideally, is voiced through the
home group.

Over the years, the very essence of A.A. strength
has remained with our home group, which, for many
members, becomes our extended family. Once isolated
by our drinking, we find in the home group a solid,
continuing support system, friends and, very often, a
sponsor. We also learn firsthand, through the group’s
workings, how to place "principles before
personalities" in the interest of carrying the A.A.
message.

Talking about her own group, a member says:
"Part of my commitment is to show up at my homegroup
meetings, greet newcomers at the door, and be
available to them—not only for them but for me. My
fellow group members are the people who know me,
listen to me, and steer me straight when I am off in left
field. They give me their experience, strength and A.A.
love, enabling me to ‘pass it on’ to the alcoholic who
still suffers."

page 28

A.A. Business Meetings

In most groups, the chairperson or another officer
calls the business meeting, which ordinarily is held on
a monthly or quarterly basis.

While some groups may occasionally permit
nonmembers to attend, the group may request that
only home group members participate or vote.

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++++Message 5427. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Medical study, emotionally
immature and grandiose
From: Ron Roizen . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/18/2008 8:08:00 PM

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Hi John,

For one perspective on Haggard and his Yale
group see my "Paradigm Sidetracked" article at

http://www.roizen.com/ron/sidetracked.htm

Best,

Ron Roizen

- - - -

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
John Lee Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2008 7:37 AM
Subject: Re: Medical study, emotionally immature and
grandiose

Howard Haggard was the Yale professor whose
name I was trying to recall. He was the
Director of Yale's Section on Alcohol Studies
in the 1930s and 1940s. While his discipline
was applied physiology, Doctor Haggard had
a long time interest in research in alcohol.
In 1945 Doctor Haggard co-authored with
Yale's E.M. Jellnick Alcohol Explored. While
Haggard's 1945 paper was presented to the
New York Medical Society, the actual studies
of the alcoholics was done on the Yale campus.
Yale University eventually dropped applied
research, and the School of Alcohol Studies
was moved to Rutgers University in 1962.
[I've parked next to the Brinkley Smithers
School of Alcohol Studies while attending
basketball games at Rutgers].

John Lee
Pittsburgh

--- On Wed, 12/17/08, James Blair <jblair@videotron.
mailto:jblair%40videotron.ca> ca> wrote:

Edgar wrote
In discussion of Step 12 in the Twelve and
Twelve, the text talks on page 123 of a
medical study that found AAs were in general
". . . childish, emotionally immature, and
grandiose . . ."

This is transcribed from a talk given by Bill W.

Some years ago the doctors began to look at
Alcoholics Anonymous and they got about thirty
of us together and they said to themselves
"Well, now that these fellows are in A.A.,
and they won't lie so badly, and maybe for the
first time we'll get a good look at what the
interior of a drunk is like." So a number of
us were examined at great length by psychia-
trists, and all sorts of tests taken, and the
object of this particular inquiry was to see
whether alcoholics as a class differed from
other people, and if they did, just why and
how much.

A number of us were invited to attend the
conclave, and a number of learned papers were
read, and finally one of these physicians (a
very noted one - the meeting took place at the
New York Academy of Medicine) began to sum up
what he thought the conclusion which they had
arrived at was this: that the alcoholic is
emotionally on the childish side. That the
alcoholic is a person who is more sensitive
emotionally than the average person. And
then, they ascribed another quality to us -
they used the word "grandiosity, " they were
grandiose (meaning by that that as a type we
were what you might call "All or nothing
people.") Someone once described it by saying
all alcoholics hanker for the moon when perhaps
the stars would have done just as well. As
a class, we're like that, said the doctors.
(Memphis, Tenn., Sept.18-20, 1947)

The paper by Howard W. Haggard, The Physician
and the Problem of Alcoholism
Bull.N.Y. Acad Med 1945 Sept, 21 (9) 451-466

Can be read here:

http://www.pubmedce ntral.nih. gov/articlerende r.fcgi?artid= 1870440&tool=
pmcentrez

Jim

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++++Message 5428. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Thomas H. Uzzell''s later life
From: John Barton . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/15/2008 10:57:00 PM

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Message 2590 from "mertonmm3"
<mertonmm3@yahoo.com> (mertonmm3 at yahoo.com)
says that:

[By January 4, 1939 a pre-multilith copy was
in the hands of Tom Uzzell who edited the
Big Book. An enormous amount of work must
have taken place from this point until publi-
cation in April 1939. Hank is clearly excited
as Bill must have been when he read it.

Source is unpublished manuscript Black Sheep
whose source was transcription of original
from microfilm at GSO.

Brackets [] encompass non-source text]

[letter dated 1/4/1939 Hank P. to Bill W.]

[start]

"I am rushing off to you excerpts from a
letter just received from Mr. Thomas H.
Uzzell, former editor of Collier's Magazine,
writer of several books, contributor to
Collier's, Sat. Evening Post, ect.

"He says 'I spent last evening with the
manuscript, I knew of course, what the
document was but on reading additional
chapters and surveying the job as a whole, I
found myself deeply moved, at times full of
amazement, almost incredulity, and during
most of the reading I was extremely sympa-
thetic. My feeling at the moment is that
you should certainly hold on to the production
and distribution of this volume, if you can
for she ought to go far, wide and handsome,
and net those concerned a neat profit. You
have here an extremely urgent problem, you
have a successful defiance of medicine, you
have a religion story, you have a deeply human
story, and, lastly, you have a whole flock of
happy endings. My God! I don't know what else
you could want for a good book. I believe in
it most emphatically.

"He further says, 'The whole book needs the
final shaping of a professional hand', and
then goes on in considerable length into
mechanical details with which I will not
bother you.

''But it is interesting that he ends his
letter as follows: 'I understand better now
the enthusiasm you revealed in your talks with
me about this work. I thought you were
exagerating somewhat, but now I have joined
the choir invisible.

"If I were you I would be intensely proud of
that opinion."

[stop]

- - - -

From: John Barton <jax760@yahoo.com>
(jax760 at yahoo.com)

He was paid what would be about $4500 in today's
money to edit the book. There is nothing to
indicate he was an alcoholic. The fact that
he had to be paid to edit the book, together
with he nature of his statements in this letter
(Hank Parkhurst to Bill 1939) show he was not
an AA member.

Regards

John

- - - -

From: J. Lobdell <jlobdell54@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Thomas H. Uzzell's later life
To: aahistorylovers@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, December 15, 2008, 10:16 PM

From CULTURE ALCOHOL & SOCIETY QUARTERLY
newsletter of Kirk/CAAS Collections at Brown
(Vol. 3 no. 6):

Notes: Early AA: Thomas Hayes Uzzell.

Thomas Hayes Uzzell (b. Denver Oct 25 1884
d. Los Angeles Nov 11 1975, who m. Camelia
Waite) had two children, one of whom,
Camelia Uzzell Berry, published a book OKLAHOMA
PRAIRIE PLOWED UNDER (Cortez CO: Mesa Verde
Press -- I think around 1998).

Uzzell was the son of Charles S Uzzell, the
"Rocky Mountain Evangelist" (1853-1890), who
d. in CA, and Estella Alexander Uzzell (b.
1861?), who remarried, a man named Frank May
(or Nay?), the same age she was: they had
children Lucile (b. 1893), Lloyd B. (b.
1896?), and John (b. 1899?), and lived in
Calumet IL in 1910, Tom Uzzell living with
them at that point.

(Charles S. Uzzell's older brother, converted
with him in 1871, was also Thomas H. Uzzell.)

Our Thomas H. Uzzell graduated Phi Beta Kappa
from the University of Minnesota, did graduate
work at Harvard and Columbia, was an editor
with the government in DC in 1917, living with
his wife at 4421 15th St, traveled to Europe
on economic investigation in 1919-20 and again
in 1920-21, was later with Collier's in NYC,
then ran a writer's school, the Thomas H.
Uzzell School (actually run, according to Mary
Cheever, who was briefly her secretary, by his
wife).

He wrote a number of books, including NARRATIVE
TECHNIQUE (1923), (ed) SHORT STORY UNITS
(2 vols 1933/34), TECHNIQUE OF THE NOVEL:
A HANDBOOK (1947, 1959), TWILIGHT OF SELF
GOVERNMENT (1961/2), and a novel GRANDEE JIM
(1973).

I ... emailed Clancy I in Long Beach/LA to
see if he knows if Bill W visited Tom Uzzell
at the time of the 1960 Convention [he
doesn't]. What I [also] don't know is whether
there was any particular personal connection
between Bill or any of the other early AAs
and Tom Uzzell, though Jim B¢s history suggests
it was Hank P. who brought Tom into the
equation.

As far as later life is concerned, I haven't
been able to find out much -- Good luck!

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++++Message 5429. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill R
From: John Barton . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/18/2008 9:04:00 PM

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The minutes of the Alcoholic Foundation dated
2/14/39 contain the following in the second
paragraph.

"The resignation of Trustee Ruddell (Class B)
is reluctantly accepted ____ (word is obscured)
he was then elected to the Advisory Committee.
As Trustee Ruddell was chairman of the board,
this left that position vacant. Trustee Harry
Brick was elected Chairman pro-tem.

The "New Jersey Group" group membership survey
conducted on Jan 1, 1940 has the following note
next to Harry Brick's name. "no progress
no longer member".

The "Alpha" file of trustees since the board
inception is accurate when it states Brick
resigned in December 1939. It shows he was
elected 1/18/39, mentions the 2/39 meeting and
then his resignation 12/39 His relapse might
have occurred in the fall of 39. I don't
believe the Board met every month and appears
to have breaks of several months at times
(no regular pattern of meetings) so he could
have relapsed on the QM in the fall and been
ousted at the next meeting following his
relapse.

Regards

John B

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++++Message 5430. . . . . . . . . . . . Now we are thousands passage
From: John Barton . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/18/2008 9:10:00 PM

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Message 2258 from Jim Blair <jblair@videotron.ca>
(jblair at videotron.ca)
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/2258

Gives a list of the changes made in the
First Edition of the Big Book in the first
16 printings:

1st Edition - 4th Printing
- Title states "EIGHT THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."
- Cover changed to green, last 1,500 navy blue.
- Piv-L03, Post Box 657 to Box 658.
- P25-L28, Added foot note "Number of Localities for A.A."
- P27-L01, 100s of Men to 1000s of Men and Women.
- P59-L25, Added foot note "Please See Appendix II."
- P168-L03, 6 years ago to 8 years ago.
- P152-L02, have been there to has been there.
- P152-L22, The bank were doing to was doing.
- P391-L24, Religious content to spiritual.
- P393-L12, 8,000 by 01/43 to 10,000 by 01/44.
- P398-L09, Works Publishing Company to Inc.
- P398-L10, organized to originally organized.
- P398-L10, members to older members
- P398-L11, Added 49 gave up stock.
- P398-L16, this book, to this book.
- P398-L16, send money to please send money.

- - - -

The word "religious" was actually changed to
"spiritual" TWICE, not just once, on page 391.

- - - -

The text for "Now We are Thousands" was
inserted as page 391 in the second printing
of the first edition Big Book:

"WHEN this book appeared in April 1939
there were approximately 100 A.A. members.
Two thirds of them were at Akron, Ohio, or
nearby communities in the northern part of
that state. Most of the remainder were in
or near New York City and a few others were
scattered along the Atlantic Seaboard. The
work had then been in existence over four
years. It had been satisfactorily demonstrated
that at least two out of three alcoholics who
wished to get well could apparently do so,
notwithstanding the fact that their chance of
recovery upon any other medical or spiritual
basis had been almost nil - a small percentage
at best."

"Publication of the book, which set down our
experience and methods at length, opened a
new and unexplored phase which meant an
attempt to carry the work to other localities,
widespread publicity, and the exposure of our
methods to the test of approval or disapproval
by religion, medicine, and the general public
- an uncharted field indeed. Would theologians
complain of our lack of orthodoxy? Would
physicians frown upon the idea of banding
together great numbers of alcoholics for
mutual aid through a religious common
denominator? Would reviewers and columnists
ridicule the religious content of the work,
thus prejudicing the men and women we were
trying to help? Would alcoholic men and women
and their families be convinced by the book
and the attendant publicity that here at last
was a solution? Such were the uncertainties
of April 1939."

- - - -

That was the wording used in the second and
third printings of the First Edition. The
word "religious" was then changed to
"spiritual" TWICE in the second paragraph
of that passage in the fourth printing:

3rd Printing

"Would physicians frown upon the idea of banding
together great numbers of alcoholics for mutual
aid through a >>religious<< common denominator?"

"Would reviewers and columnists ridicule the
>>religious<< content of the work, thus
prejudicing the men and women we were trying
to help?"

4th Printing

"Would physicians frown upon the idea of banding
together great numbers of alcoholics for mutual
aid through a >>spiritual<< common denominator?"

"Would reviewers and columnists ridicule the
>>spiritual<< content of the work, thus
prejudicing the men and women we were trying
to help?"

God Bless

John B

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++++Message 5431. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Mac
From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/18/2008 9:48:00 PM

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I have been able to confirm that "Mac" PIO 227-228 and Ruth Hocks
Letter to Bill in 1955 "Recollections" is Ernest Mackenzie, New
Jersey Group Member from March of 1939. This the same Ernest M listed
on page 162 of PIO. The several "Pioneer" lists on the internet
showing Ernest M - 1935 - Failed to gain long term sobriety are in
fact incorrect (as previously stated). Ernest apparently did stay
sober (after the 1940 slip) and moved from the South Orange Group in
1941 to being one of the founding members of the Bergen County Group
(along with Tom Powers)on July 29, 1941.

In the 1st Big Book sold, which was autographed by all the founding
members, there is a notation next to Ernest Mackenzies name that
says "Mac".

Does anyone know who owns this original autographed book?

I have deciphered the names for numbers 25 and 32 (left blank in the
book notations as ?) as well as the name for the crossed out (13).

Best Regards

John B

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, John Barton <jax760@...>
wrote:
>
> In message 5286, I said that "Herb was a
> slipper who had been around since 1935 (see
> Pass it On p.162)."
>
> - - - -
>
> My mistake! I have found this to be incorrect.
> Herb D came in according to a survey of the
> New Jersey Group conducted on Jan 1, 1940
> (Document in Jersey Archives) earlier in 39.
> Survey said he had 9 months. I suspect this
> is also wrong unfortunately as I have found
> other errors on this survey i.e. lists Hank P
> as having "5 years", unlikely since that
> would pre-date Dr Bob.
>
> For example many of the "Pioneer Lists" on
> the internet ( see below) are in error. Under
> 1935 they show Bill R. Pass it On says "Bill
> and his wife non-alcoholic Kathleen.... "This
> is Bill Ruddell who came in Feb 1937. Documents
> in the New Jersey Archives confirm Bill Ruddell
> and his wife Kathleen in letters from Ruth
> Hock. Herb D and Earnest M are both listed in
> the 1940 survey as having 9 months. Although
> as I said I do question this. These guys
> attended the meetings at Clinton Street but
> not in 35 as indicated on these Pioneer Lists.
> I have a strong suspicion (but unconfirmed)
> at this point that Earnest M is "Mac".
> Earnest's last name is MacKenzie. Recall
> Mac was found drunk in Bill's office when
> A LeRoy Chipman from the Rockefeller founda-
> tion visited on Vesey Street.Circa 1939/40.
>
> I am trying to chase this down, but we should
> not read anything into Pass it On page 162 to
> indicate that the people who attended the
> Tuesday meetings at 182 Clinton Street were
> all attending in 1935. The meetings on Tuesday
> went from Fall of 1935 until April of 1939.
> Pass it On says Lois remembers so and so etc,
> could have been that many names mentioned
> attended in later years, as is definitely the
> case with Bill R. I must admit that I too
> originally read that page in Pass it On with
> tunnel vision.
>
> I hope more will be revealed.
>
> God Bless
>
> John B
>
> - - - -
>
> Pioneers of Alcoholics Anonymous – 1934 – 1939
>
> All Below Achieved At Least Some Period of Sobriety.
> Some who failed may have achieved permanent sobriety later.
> Bolded Names Achieved Permanent Sobriety.
>
>
> 1934
>
> Name
>
> Location
>
> Comment/Big Book Story
>
>
> Dec 11
>
> Bill Wilson
>
> New York
>
> Co-Founder of AA – Bill's Story
>
>
> 1935
>
>
>
> Jun 10
>
> Dr.Bob Smith
>
> Akron
>
> Co-Founder of AA – Dr. Bob's Nightmare
>
>
> June
>
> Eddie Reilly
>
> Akron
>
> Sobered in 1949
>
>
> June
>
> Dr. McK.
>
> Akron
>
> Failed to gain long term sobriety
>
>
> June
>
> Bill Dotson
>
> Akron
>
> Alcoholics Anonymous No.3 – 2nd Ed
>
>
> July
>
> Ernie Gailbraith
>
> Akron
>
> The Seven Month Slip – (An In-and-Outer Slipper)
>
>
> Aug
>
> Wes Wyman
>
> Akron
>
> Sobered in 1949
>
>
> Sept
>
> Hank Parkhurst
>
> New York
>
> The Unbeliever – 4 yrs. Sober
> Drunk Sept 1939
>
>
> Sept
>
> Phil Smith
>
> Akron
>
>
>
> Oct
>
> John Henry "Fitz" Mayo
>
> New York
>
> Our Southern Friend
>
>
> 1935
>
> Freddie B.
>
> New York
>
> Failed to gain long term sobriety
>
>
> 1935
>
> Brooke B.
>
> New York
>
> Failed to gain long term sobriety
>
>
> 1935
>
> Bill R. ERROR
>
> New York
>
> Failed to gain long term sobriety
>
>
> 1935
>
> Ernest M. ERROR
>
> New York
>
> Failed to gain long term sobriety
>
>
> 1935
>
> Herb D. ERROR
>
> New York
>
> Failed to gain long term sobriety
>
>
> 1935
>
> Alec
>
> New York
>
> Failed to gain long term sobriety
>
>
> 1935
>
> Russ R.
>
> New York
>
> Failed to gain long term sobriety
>
>
> 1935
>
> Bill C.
>
> New York
>
> Failed to gain long term sobriety
>
>
> 1935
>
> Victor (Akron)
>
> New York
>
> Failed to gain long term sobriety
>
>
> 1935
>
> Lil (Akron)
>
> New York
>
> Failed to gain long term sobriety
>

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++++Message 5432. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Now we are thousands passage
From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/18/2008 9:49:00 PM

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At 20:09 12/17/2008, jax760 wrote:

>Interestingly enough I have found the source
>of the text for "Now We are Thousands" which
>was inserted as page 391 in the second printing
>of the first edition Big Book. It was taken
>from an eighteen page letter Bill wrote to
>the trustees in October of 1940. Below are the
>first few paragraphs of Bill's letter to the
>trustees and the original text which appeared
>in the second and third printings on page 391.

[snip]

>
>NOW WE ARE THOUSANDS. ­ p.391
>
>WHEN this book appeared in April 1939 there were approximately 100 A.A.
>members. Two thirds of them were at Akron, Ohio, or nearby communities
>in the northern part of that state. Most of the remainder were in or
>near New York City and a few others were scattered along the Atlantic
>Seaboard. The work had then been in existence over four years. It had
>been satisfactorily demonstrated that at least two out of three
>alcoholics who wished to get well could apparently do so,
>notwithstanding the fact that their chance of recovery upon any other
>medical or spiritual basis had been almost nil-a small percentage at
>best.
>
>Publication of the book, which set down our experience and methods at
>length, opened a new and unexplored phase which meant an attempt to
>carry the work to other localities, widespread publicity, and the
>exposure of our methods to the test of approval or disapproval by
>religion, medicine, and the general public-an uncharted field indeed.
>Would theologians complain of our lack of orthodoxy? Would physicians
>frown upon the idea of banding together great numbers of alcoholics for
>mutual aid through a religious common denominator? Would reviewers and
>columnists ridicule the religious content of the work, thus prejudicing
>the men and women we were trying to help? Would alcoholic men and women
>and their families be convinced by the book and the attendant publicity
>that here at last was a solution? Such were the uncertainties of April
>1939.
>
>(End Text)
>

I would note that the the word "religious" in the
third and fourth sentences was changed to
"spiritual" in the Fourth and subsequent
printings. This change is noted in A.A.H.L. message #2258.

Tommy H

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++++Message 5433. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Medical study, emotionally
immature and grandiose
From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/19/2008 7:38:00 AM

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--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Doris Ringbloom" <dringbloom@...>
wrote:
>
> A book titled Matt Talbot by Morgan Costelloe has
>
> "American authorities on alcoholism hold that
> the following psychological traits are commonly
> found in alcoholics:
>
> 1. A high level of anxiety in interpersonal relations
> 2. Emotional immaturity
> 3. Ambivalence towards authority
> 4. Low frustration tolerance
> 5. Low self-esteem
> 6. Perfectionism
> 7. Guilt
> 8. Feelings of isolation"
>
> Doesn't give a reference but might be the same
> study and give another point to research from
>
> For what it's worth.
>
> Doris
>
- - - -

The list you give here is almost word-for-word
identical with one in Howard Clinebell's
<Understanding and Counseling the Alcoholic>
p 53 of the revised edition of 1968 (the
original edition appeared in 1956), the only
difference being that Clinebell included
grandiosity and compulsiveness for a total
of 10. Clinebell presented the list as his own
summary of contemporary writings on the subject,
although it did not necessarily represent
Clinebell's own view. Maybe Costelloe meant
to put in a footnote.

I agree with Edgar that Haggard seems like an
unlikely source. Certainly Jellinek was not a
major proponent of the theory that alcoholism
was caused by underlying personality disorders,
and wasn't Haggard working with Jellinek?

My vote (as to a source, that is) goes to a
study, which I admit I have not read, which
appeared in the December 1943 issue of Quarterly
Journal of Studies on Alcohol. According to
Clinebell, "Charles C. Hewitt summarizes his
findings in "A Personality Study of Alcohol
Addiction," as follows: "Alcohol addiction,
in the group studied in this survey, seems to
be associated, with but few exceptions, with
deep personality disorders. Even those
exceptions are doubtless more apparent than
real." (Clinebell p 57)

Cora

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++++Message 5434. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: Amend vs. amends, and
Grammar
From: wil antheunis . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/18/2008 10:56:00 AM

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My Oxford English Dictionary, second edition
(The second edition is in 20 volumes and 3
volume additions series) says:

1 amend, v.

2 amend, ppl. a.

3 amend, n.

for amend, n. the entry is âsee amends.â

For amends the definition is quite lengthy,
about 4 pages long but without quotations:

â 1. The moneys paid, or things given to
make reparation for any injury or offence,
= L. pÅ“nÃ¦; a fine. Obs.

â b. in sing. Obs. rare.

2. Reparation, retribution, restitution,
compensation, satisfaction. esp. in phr. to
make amends. a. pl. in form, collect. in sense.

b. pl. in form, distinctly sing. in use.
(Cf. a means.)

â c. sing. (See also amende.) Obs. rare.

â 3. Means of obtaining satisfaction, or
of amending; remedy. Obs. rare.

â 4. Improvement, betterment, amendment. Obs.

â b. Improvement in health, recovery. Obs.

5. Comb. amends-making.

(The Oxford English Dictionary is the inter-
nationally recognized authority on the
evolution of the English language from 1150
to the present day. The dictionary defines
over 500,000 words and traces their usage
through 2.5 million illustrative quotations
from a wide range of literary and other
sources. It is an unsurpassed guide to the
meaning, pronunciation, and history of the
English language.)

- - - -

From the moderator:

So if I understand this properly, the OED
(Oxford English Dictionary), which is the
great authority on the history of English
usage since the Norman Conquest, did find
places where amend was used (without an s
on the end) as a singular noun, but refers
to this usage as both rare and obsolete.

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++++Message 5435. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Amend vs. amends, and Grammar
From: wil antheunis . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/19/2008 11:43:00 PM

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The most recent quotation for the singular
given by OED is dated in the late sixteen
hundreds.

- - - -

In the original message

[From: wil antheunis
Subject: Re: Amend vs. amends, and Grammar]

the moderator commented:

So if I understand this properly, the OED
(Oxford English Dictionary), which is the
great authority on the history of English
usage since the Norman Conquest, did find
places where amend was used (without an s
on the end) as a singular noun, but refers
to this usage as both rare and obsolete.

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++++Message 5436. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Medical study, emotionally
immature and grandiose
From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/20/2008 11:45:00 AM

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Another name that very strongly advocated
the alcoholic as "emotionally immature and
grandiose" was Dr Harry Tiebout.

His papers were reputedly published in the
early 1950s but his premise was likely
established well before then.

Cheers
Arthur

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ron Roizen
Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2008 7:09 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Medical study, emotionally immature and
grandiose

Hi John,

For one perspective on Haggard and his Yale
group see my "Paradigm Sidetracked" article at

http://www.roizen.com/ron/sidetracked.htm

Best,

Ron Roizen

- - - -

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
John Lee Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2008 7:37 AM
Subject: Re: Medical study, emotionally immature and
grandiose

Howard Haggard was the Yale professor whose
name I was trying to recall. He was the
Director of Yale's Section on Alcohol Studies
in the 1930s and 1940s. While his discipline
was applied physiology, Doctor Haggard had

a long time interest in research in alcohol.
In 1945 Doctor Haggard co-authored with
Yale's E.M. Jellnick Alcohol Explored. While
Haggard's 1945 paper was presented to the
New York Medical Society, the actual studies
of the alcoholics was done on the Yale campus.
Yale University eventually dropped applied
research, and the School of Alcohol Studies
was moved to Rutgers University in 1962.
[I've parked next to the Brinkley Smithers
School of Alcohol Studies while attending
basketball games at Rutgers].

John Lee
Pittsburgh

--- On Wed, 12/17/08, James Blair <jblair@videotron.
mailto:jblair%40videotron.ca> ca> wrote:

Edgar wrote
In discussion of Step 12 in the Twelve and
Twelve, the text talks on page 123 of a
medical study that found AAs were in general
". . . childish, emotionally immature, and
grandiose . . ."

This is transcribed from a talk given by Bill W.

Some years ago the doctors began to look at
Alcoholics Anonymous and they got about thirty
of us together and they said to themselves
"Well, now that these fellows are in A.A.,
and they won't lie so badly, and maybe for the
first time we'll get a good look at what the
interior of a drunk is like." So a number of
us were examined at great length by psychia-
trists, and all sorts of tests taken, and the
object of this particular inquiry was to see
whether alcoholics as a class differed from
other people, and if they did, just why and
how much.

A number of us were invited to attend the
conclave, and a number of learned papers were
read, and finally one of these physicians (a
very noted one - the meeting took place at the
New York Academy of Medicine) began to sum up
what he thought the conclusion which they had
arrived at was this: that the alcoholic is
emotionally on the childish side. That the
alcoholic is a person who is more sensitive
emotionally than the average person. And
then, they ascribed another quality to us -
they used the word "grandiosity, " they were
grandiose (meaning by that that as a type we
were what you might call "All or nothing
people.") Someone once described it by saying
all alcoholics hanker for the moon when perhaps
the stars would have done just as well. As
a class, we're like that, said the doctors.
(Memphis, Tenn., Sept.18-20, 1947)

The paper by Howard W. Haggard, The Physician
and the Problem of Alcoholism
Bull.N.Y. Acad Med 1945 Sept, 21 (9) 451-466

Can be read here:

http://www.pubmedce ntral.nih. gov/articlerende r.fcgi?artid= 1870440&tool=
pmcentrez

Jim

------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

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++++Message 5437. . . . . . . . . . . . Online AA meetings
From: Charlie Gallie . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/14/2008 4:09:00 PM

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When was the first online AA meeting where
people used webcams to see one another?

When was the first online Alcothon?

(We are getting ready now to do an online
webcam Alcothon at http://www.SoberFolk.org )

Charlie Gallie
charliegallie@comcast.net
(charliegallie at comcast.net)
http://www.SoberFolk.org

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++++Message 5438. . . . . . . . . . . . The doctor in paragraph 3 of The
Family Afterward
From: stuboymooreman81 . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/15/2008 8:05:00 AM

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At the beginning of Chapter 9, "The Family
Afterward," in paragraph 3 on page 122, it says:

"A doctor said to us, 'Years of living with
an alcoholic is almost sure to make any wife
or child neurotic. The entire family is, to
some extent, ill.'"

I was wondering if any of you had any
information on this doctor.

Thanks a lot,

Stuart

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++++Message 5439. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Mac
From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/19/2008 9:55:00 PM

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The original is in the GSO Archives, having
been presented by Virginia M. (I think when
she moved to the West Coast). I have made
guesses at 13 and 32, but have no idea what
the name is in signature 25, tho' the last
part looks like a "jr" -- is there any way of
finding out (the signatures are available
on the web on silkworth.net)? Please help me
out here if you can.

- - - -

ONE CAN SEE THE ORIGINAL SIGNATURES ON THE
silkworth.net site in an online document called
Signatures Found in First Big Book April 1939

Go to the Silkworth site at http://silkworth.net/

Click on "History" at the top, which takes you to
http://silkworth.net/aahistory/historyaa.html

Go to "Research & Study" in the middle of the
left hand column, which takes you to
http://silkworth.net/aahistory/research.html

The fourth item down is "Signatures in the first
Big Book," which takes you to
http://silkworth.net/aahistory/Signatures_found_in_1st_Big_Book_04_1939.doc

- - - -

> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
> From: jax760@yahoo.com
> Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 02:48:12 +0000
> Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Mac
>
> I have been able to confirm that "Mac" PIO 227-228 and Ruth Hocks
> Letter to Bill in 1955 "Recollections" is Ernest Mackenzie, New
> Jersey Group Member from March of 1939. This the same Ernest M listed
> on page 162 of PIO. The several "Pioneer" lists on the internet
> showing Ernest M - 1935 - Failed to gain long term sobriety are in
> fact incorrect (as previously stated). Ernest apparently did stay
> sober (after the 1940 slip) and moved from the South Orange Group in
> 1941 to being one of the founding members of the Bergen County Group
> (along with Tom Powers)on July 29, 1941.
>
> In the 1st Big Book sold, which was autographed by all the founding
> members, there is a notation next to Ernest Mackenzies name that
> says "Mac".
>
> Does anyone know who owns this original autographed book?
>
> I have deciphered the names for numbers 25 and 32 (left blank in the
> book notations as ?) as well as the name for the crossed out (13).
>
> Best Regards
>
> John B
>
> --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, John Barton <jax760@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > In message 5286, I said that "Herb was a
> > slipper who had been around since 1935 (see
> > Pass it On p.162)."
> >
> > - - - -
> >
> > My mistake! I have found this to be incorrect.
> > Herb D came in according to a survey of the
> > New Jersey Group conducted on Jan 1, 1940
> > (Document in Jersey Archives) earlier in 39.
> > Survey said he had 9 months. I suspect this
> > is also wrong unfortunately as I have found
> > other errors on this survey i.e. lists Hank P
> > as having "5 years", unlikely since that
> > would pre-date Dr Bob.
> >
> > For example many of the "Pioneer Lists" on
> > the internet ( see below) are in error. Under
> > 1935 they show Bill R. Pass it On says "Bill
> > and his wife non-alcoholic Kathleen.... "This
> > is Bill Ruddell who came in Feb 1937. Documents
> > in the New Jersey Archives confirm Bill Ruddell
> > and his wife Kathleen in letters from Ruth
> > Hock. Herb D and Earnest M are both listed in
> > the 1940 survey as having 9 months. Although
> > as I said I do question this. These guys
> > attended the meetings at Clinton Street but
> > not in 35 as indicated on these Pioneer Lists.
> > I have a strong suspicion (but unconfirmed)
> > at this point that Earnest M is "Mac".
> > Earnest's last name is MacKenzie. Recall
> > Mac was found drunk in Bill's office when
> > A LeRoy Chipman from the Rockefeller founda-
> > tion visited on Vesey Street.Circa 1939/40.
> >
> > I am trying to chase this down, but we should
> > not read anything into Pass it On page 162 to
> > indicate that the people who attended the
> > Tuesday meetings at 182 Clinton Street were
> > all attending in 1935. The meetings on Tuesday
> > went from Fall of 1935 until April of 1939.
> > Pass it On says Lois remembers so and so etc,

> > could have been that many names mentioned
> > attended in later years, as is definitely the
> > case with Bill R. I must admit that I too
> > originally read that page in Pass it On with
> > tunnel vision.
> >
> > I hope more will be revealed.
> >
> > God Bless
> >
> > John B
> >
> > - - - -
> >
> > Pioneers of Alcoholics Anonymous – 1934 – 1939
> >
> > All Below Achieved At Least Some Period of Sobriety.
> > Some who failed may have achieved permanent sobriety later.
> > Bolded Names Achieved Permanent Sobriety.
> >
> >
> > 1934
> >
> > Name
> >
> > Location
> >
> > Comment/Big Book Story
> >
> >
> > Dec 11
> >
> > Bill Wilson
> >
> > New York
> >
> > Co-Founder of AA – Bill's Story
> >
> >
> > 1935
> >
> >
> >
> > Jun 10
> >
> > Dr.Bob Smith
> >
> > Akron
> >
> > Co-Founder of AA – Dr. Bob's Nightmare
> >
> >
> > June
> >
> > Eddie Reilly
> >
> > Akron
> >
> > Sobered in 1949
> >
> >
> > June
> >
> > Dr. McK.
> >
> > Akron
> >
> > Failed to gain long term sobriety
> >
> >
> > June
> >
> > Bill Dotson
> >
> > Akron
> >
> > Alcoholics Anonymous No.3 – 2nd Ed
> >
> >
> > July
> >
> > Ernie Gailbraith
> >
> > Akron
> >
> > The Seven Month Slip – (An In-and-Outer Slipper)
> >
> >
> > Aug
> >
> > Wes Wyman
> >
> > Akron
> >
> > Sobered in 1949
> >
> >
> > Sept
> >
> > Hank Parkhurst
> >
> > New York
> >
> > The Unbeliever – 4 yrs. Sober
> > Drunk Sept 1939
> >
> >
> > Sept
> >
> > Phil Smith
> >
> > Akron
> >
> >
> >
> > Oct
> >
> > John Henry "Fitz" Mayo
> >
> > New York
> >
> > Our Southern Friend
> >
> >
> > 1935
> >
> > Freddie B.
> >
> > New York
> >
> > Failed to gain long term sobriety
> >
> >
> > 1935
> >
> > Brooke B.
> >
> > New York
> >
> > Failed to gain long term sobriety
> >
> >
> > 1935
> >
> > Bill R. ERROR
> >
> > New York
> >
> > Failed to gain long term sobriety
> >
> >
> > 1935
> >
> > Ernest M. ERROR
> >
> > New York
> >
> > Failed to gain long term sobriety
> >
> >
> > 1935
> >
> > Herb D. ERROR
> >
> > New York
> >
> > Failed to gain long term sobriety
> >
> >
> > 1935
> >
> > Alec
> >
> > New York
> >
> > Failed to gain long term sobriety
> >
> >
> > 1935
> >
> > Russ R.
> >
> > New York
> >
> > Failed to gain long term sobriety
> >
> >
> > 1935
> >
> > Bill C.
> >
> > New York
> >
> > Failed to gain long term sobriety
> >
> >
> > 1935
> >
> > Victor (Akron)
> >
> > New York
> >
> > Failed to gain long term sobriety
> >
> >
> > 1935
> >
> > Lil (Akron)
> >
> > New York
> >
> > Failed to gain long term sobriety
> >

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++++Message 5440. . . . . . . . . . . . The Doctor''s Opinion
From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/24/2008 6:16:00 AM

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"Though the aggregate of recoveries resulting
from psychiatric effort is considerable, we
physicians must admit we have made little
impression on the problem [of alcoholism] as
a whole."

(William D. Silkworth in the Big Book in "The
Doctor's Opinion," page xxix, fourth edition).

Was that just the doctor's opinion, an
anecdotal generalisation, or based on what
had been a recent survey? Did the authorities
record such data in the 1930s?

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++++Message 5441. . . . . . . . . . . . Christmas greetings from Bill W. in
1944
From: DudleyDobinson@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/24/2008 3:22:00 PM

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The following is a Christmas greeting from
Bill W. and others in 1944.

- - - -

TO ALL MEMBERS

Greetings On Our 10th Christmas

1944

Yes, it's in the air! The spirit of Christmas
once more warms this poor distraught world.
Over the whole globe millions are looking
forward to that one day when strife can be
forgotten, when it will be remembered that
all human beings, even the least are loved by
God, when men will hope for the coming of the
Prince of Peace as they never hoped before.
But there is another world which is not poor.
Neither is it distraught.

It is the world of Alcoholics Anonymous, where
thousands dwell happily and secure. Secure
because each of us, in his own way, knows a
greater power who is love, who is just, and
who can be trusted. Nor can men and women of
AA ever forget that only through suffering did
they find enough humility to enter the portals
of that New World. How privileged we are to
understand so well the divine paradox that
strength rises from weakness, that humiliation
goes before resurrection; that pain is not only
the price but the very touchstone of spiritual
rebirth. Knowing its full worth and purpose,
we can no longer fear adversity, we have found
prosperity where there was poverty, peace and
joy have sprung out of the very midst of chaos.
Great indeed, our blessings!

And so,-- Merry Christmas to you all-- from
the Trustees, from Bobbie and from Lois and me.

Bill Wilson

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++++Message 5442. . . . . . . . . . . . Joe B. at the end of Robert
Thomsen''s bio of Bill W.
From: Michael F. Margetis . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/26/2008 3:58:00 PM

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Hi all,

At the end of Robert Thomsen's biography of
Bill W. (pg 369-371) is a very moving story
about an AA named "Joe B.," who rather than
going to Bill's memorial service (as presumably
every other AA in NYC was doing), chose to
stay and open up a regularly scheduled Sunday
afternoon AA meeting in Greenwich Village.

It was a 2:00 pm meeting and by 2:30 pm still
no one had showed up and he was just about to
lock up and go when a newcomer showed up. He
invites him and offers him a cup of coffee and
that's the end of the book.

I realize this may be a bit much to ask even
for AAHL, but does anyone know anything about
"Joe B." and this newcomer?

Thanks,

Mike Margetis
Brunswick, Maryland

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++++Message 5443. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr. Tiebout Question
From: Michael F. Margetis . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/26/2008 3:55:00 PM

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Hi all,

In Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age in the
appendix E:b "Therapeutic Mechanisim of
Alcoholics Anonymous" by Dr. Tiebout it's
obvious that "Mr. X" is Bill and the first
patient at Blythewood is Marty, but I'm not
so sure about the other patient:

Page 313, "He is a man in his early forties.
From a family of wealth...."

Was this Grennie?

Thanks,

Mike Margetis
Brunswick, Maryland

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++++Message 5444. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Photographs of Richard Peabody
or Courtenay Baylor?
From: diazeztone . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/23/2008 11:31:00 PM

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hello Joe T,

I also would like to find photos you mentioned.
No replies from anyone??

I am also curious as to the spelling -- is it
Courtenay Baylor or Courtney Baylor?

LD Pierce
editor aabibliography.com

- - - -

Message 4312 (May 9, 2007) from Joseph Trevaskis
easydorset@yahoo.com (easydorset at yahoo.com)
>
> Hello all,
>
> I have been doing research with some others
> on obtaining photographs of people who were
> involved in pre-AA.
>
> Does anyone have a copy of a photo of Richard
> Peabody, Courtenay Baylor or anyone related?
>
> How can people obtain copies?
>
> Thanks ever,
>
> In Love & service,
>
> Joe T
>

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++++Message 5445. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: A group may request that only
home group members vote
From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/20/2008 6:42:00 AM

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I've just flicked through the Grapevine
compilation, "The Home Group; heartbeat of AA".
There's not much information on membership
rules and procedures, which, since AA as such
ought never be organised, and as each group is
autonomous, is perhaps unsurprising.

THE EARLY LITTLE ROCK MEMBERSHIP RULES

An article from September 1947 headed "Little
Rock plan gives prospects closest attention"
describes that group's rigorous membership
rules.

It records, "It is not easy to become
a member of this group. When a person has
expressed a desire to achieve sobriety and
has a sponsor appointed for him, he must
leave his work or position for two weeks.
Usually the prospect is required to spend
the entire time within the confines of the
club rooms, studying, preparing a case
history, meeting and filling assignments laid
out by the sponsor.

If, after two weeks, he has discharged his
assignments to the satisfaction of his
sponsor, he is brought before the executive
committee and here his request for membership
is presented by his sponsor in his presence.

In some instances ... he may not be admitted
for varying periods as high as six months...
However, if he is deemed eligible by the
committee, he is brought before the next
meeting, receives a warm welcome, is handed
a copy of the 'Approach Program' (sic) and
the 12 Steps.

This not all, however ... we give him a diary
and ask that each day for 28 days he record
his impressions and enter therein, 'I have
not taken a drink this day,' and sign his
name.

At the end of this period he returns the
diary, is again welcomed and is admitted to
full membership, the privilege of the ballot
and an unrestricted part in the activities
of the Fellowship..."

http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/122465942/direct/01/

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++++Message 5446. . . . . . . . . . . . Signatures on Big Book: Howard M.
Wilson
From: LES COLE . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/21/2008 2:10:00 PM

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Hi Jared:

I opened Silkworth.net as you suggested and
then the piece on "signatures."

Therein I saw a couple details which I now
mention.

1. I saw that Virginia added a note beside
signature number 66, Howard M. Wilson.
Her note said: "(Bill's brother)"
How did she come to believe that Bill had
a brother? As we know, he only had a sister,
Dorothy. His uncle was Clarence, who is
buried beside Bill in East Dorset.

2. I had, for years written Ebby's last name
with a "t". I don't know why it was but it
seemed OK. Then, recently, I found a picture
of Ebby's grave stone and learned how it
actually was spelled without the "t". That
was my answer.

In this new piece, "signatures" I see that
Ebby signed his own name without a "t,"
YET when Virginia MacLeod wrote he commentaries
on the same book pages, she wrote Thatcher
WITH a "t." Isn't it interesting that the
oft-repeated error got started that far back,
and when she saw Ebby's signature in the same
book, she established an early precedent?

Les
Colorado Springs, CO

- - - -

Message #5439 from "J. Lobdell"
<jlobdell54@hotmail.com>
(jlobdell54 at hotmail.com)

The 1st Big Book sold was autographed by all
the founding members. One can see the original
signatures on the silkworth.net site in an
online document called "Signatures Found in
First Big Book April 1939."

Go to the Silkworth site at http://silkworth.net/

Click on "History" at the top, which takes you to
http://silkworth.net/aahistory/historyaa.html

Go to "Research & Study" in the middle of the
left hand column, which takes you to
http://silkworth.net/aahistory/research.html

The fourth item down is "Signatures in the first
Big Book," which takes you to

http://silkworth.net/aahistory/Signatures_found_in_1st_Big_Book_04_1939.doc

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++++Message 5447. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: home group members: early Little
Rock AA
From: John Schram . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/28/2008 5:33:00 PM

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In respect to Little Rock AA Group a lot of
this can be read in "You Can Stop Drinking" by
Harold Morrow. The late Earl H from Oklahoma
told me about this book. It was dedicated to
the Little Rock Group of AA. Circa 1950.

Someone has a copy for sale now on Ebay.

John Schram

- - - -

From the moderator: a copy is also available
at Abebooks:

http://www.abebooks.com/

Harold Morrow Sherman, "You can stop drinking,"
(Frederick, Maryland: Creative Age Press, Wonder
Book, n.d.).

- - - -

----- Original Message -----
From: jenny andrews
To: aahistorylovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 3:42 AM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: A group may request that only home group
members vote

I've just flicked through the Grapevine
compilation, "The Home Group; heartbeat of AA".
There's not much information on membership
rules and procedures, which, since AA as such
ought never be organised, and as each group is
autonomous, is perhaps unsurprising.

THE EARLY LITTLE ROCK MEMBERSHIP RULES

An article from September 1947 headed "Little
Rock plan gives prospects closest attention"
describes that group's rigorous membership
rules.

It records, "It is not easy to become
a member of this group. When a person has
expressed a desire to achieve sobriety and
has a sponsor appointed for him, he must
leave his work or position for two weeks.
Usually the prospect is required to spend
the entire time within the confines of the
club rooms, studying, preparing a case
history, meeting and filling assignments laid
out by the sponsor.

If, after two weeks, he has discharged his
assignments to the satisfaction of his
sponsor, he is brought before the executive
committee and here his request for membership
is presented by his sponsor in his presence.

In some instances ... he may not be admitted
for varying periods as high as six months...
However, if he is deemed eligible by the
committee, he is brought before the next
meeting, receives a warm welcome, is handed
a copy of the 'Approach Program' (sic) and
the 12 Steps.

This not all, however ... we give him a diary
and ask that each day for 28 days he record
his impressions and enter therein, 'I have
not taken a drink this day,' and sign his
name.

At the end of this period he returns the
diary, is again welcomed and is admitted to
full membership, the privilege of the ballot
and an unrestricted part in the activities
of the Fellowship..."

http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/122465942/direct/01/

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++++Message 5448. . . . . . . . . . . . Henry Ford remark on page 124 of the
Big Book
From: stuboymooreman81 . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/29/2008 9:23:00 AM

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Hi history lovers, hope everyone is well and
had a lovely xmas. I was wondering if you
know when Henry Ford made the "wise remark"
on p. 124 of the Big Book and if you knew
who he was talking to.

Stuart, Barking Big Book Study

Thanks

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++++Message 5449. . . . . . . . . . . . Skeletons in the closet
From: stuboymooreman81 . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/29/2008 9:29:00 AM

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Hello everyone, Stuart from the Barking Big
Book Study.

I was curious as to why on p. 125 in the Big Book,
in the chapter on "The Family Afterward," it
says we keep FEW skeletons as opposed to NO
skeletons in the closet.

I would be truly grateful if anyone knew why.

Thanks a lot, take care, Stuart.

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++++Message 5450. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill Wilson against the use of
vulgar lanquage
From: hjfree2001 . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/29/2008 12:59:00 PM

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I have seen a letter or comment attributed
to Bill Wilson regarding abusive and vulgar
lanquage not being appropriate at meetings.

Clues where to look?

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++++Message 5451. . . . . . . . . . . . Group membership
From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/29/2008 4:46:00 AM

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Then of course there's Bill W's observation
in his Grapevine article (August 1946): "Around
1943 or 1944, the central Office asked the
groups to list their membership rules and send
them in. After they arrived we set them all
down. A little reflection upon these many rules
brought us to an astonishing conclusion. If
all these edicts had been in force everywhere
at once it would have been practically
impossible for any alcoholic to have ever
joined AA. About nine-tenths of our oldest and
best members could never have got by!"

(Reprinted in "As Bill Sees It, page 41.)

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++++Message 5452. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Photographs of Richard Peabody
or Courtenay Baylor?
From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/28/2008 7:03:00 PM

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I have contacted just about every archives,
library, university, etc. in the New York
City and Boston area for photos of Peabody
and Baylor with no luck. I even tried Brown
University, Library of Congress and several
folks from Rhode Island, Vermont and elsewhere.

I've been looking for these for several years
trying to put together a PowerPoint utilizing
photos and sound bites of early members and
friends of AA.

Please keep me in the look as to what is
found. Thanks.


1: http://www.traditionalmusic.co.uk/folk-songs-with-chords/Take%20A%20Whiff%20On%20Me.htm
2: http://www.hboarchives.com/apps/searchlibrary/ctl/gotoclipdetails?key=TQ49312111_015&amp;flash=6
3: http://www.hboarchives.com/apps/searchlibrary/ctl/gotoclipdetails?key=TQ49312111_025&amp;flash=6
4: http://www.hboarchives.com/apps/searchlibrary/ctl/gotoclipdetails?key=TQ49312111_016&amp;flash=6
5: http://www.hboarchives.com/apps/searchlibrary/ctl/gotoclipdetails?key=TQ49312111_017&amp;flash=6
6: http://www.hboarchives.com/apps/searchlibrary/ctl/gotoclipdetails?key=TQ49312111_026&amp;flash=6
7: http://silkworth.net/pdfhistory/What-We-Were-Like-Fragments-of-AA-History-Jun-1990.pdf
8: http://silkworth.net/pdfhistory/What-We-Were-Like-The-North-Hollywood-Group-May-1997.pdf
9: http://www.fathermartinsashley.com/interior.php?section=News&amp;subsection=FatherMartinUpdate
10: http://www.use.salvationarmy.org/use/www_use_neo.nsf/ce952dea4507ee7780256cf4005d2254/36a9553c9ae1b69280256e3900674c2b?OpenDocument
11: http://www.justloveaudio.com/resources/Assorted/Big_Book_Name_and_Date_References.pdf
12: http://www.justloveaudio.com/resources/Assorted/Big_Book_Name_and_Date_Reference
13: http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/sports/stories/2008/05/06/columbus_bb_1950.ART_ART_05-06-08_C1_LVA4ED9.html?sid=101
14: http://www.sfgate.com/flat/archive/2007/09/07/chronicle/archive/2007/09/07/BA99S1AKQ.html
15: http://dhfs.wisconsin.gov/substabuse/Education/Teleconference/ArchivedMaterials/2002presentations/AATALK021202.pdf.
16: http://books.google.com/books?id=6-jWpCYBTR0C&amp;pg=PA269&amp;lpg=PA269&amp;dq=%22when+you+leave+here+let+it+stay+here22+Manhattan+Project&amp;source=web&amp;ots=W-XQWIytdv&amp;sig=zFnqFv2joIPddBGcwRVcTXJpvqI&amp;hl=en
17: http://www.justloveaudio.com/resources/12_Steps_Recovery/Pre-Step_Work/Set-Aside_Prayer.pdf
18: http://justloveaudio.com/resources/Assorted/Big_Book_Name_and_Date_References.pdf
19: http://www3.uakron.edu/schlcomm/womenshistory/seiberling_h.htm.
20: http://www.art.com/asp/sp-asp/_/pd--10391683/Chartres_Street_New_Orleans_Louisiana.htm
21: http://picasaweb.google.com/nwweinberg/TheQuarterHouseResortNewOrleansFrenchQuarter/photo#5221590602611018002
22: http://olpa.od.nih.gov/legislation/110/pendinglegislation/redesignation_institute.asp
23: http://www.righthealth.com/Health/High_Blood_Pressure/-od-definition_adam_1_0004681-s
24: http://www.righthealth.com/Health/Blurred_Vision/-od-definition_adam_1_0030291-s
25: http://stepstudy.org/2008/09/23/foreword-to-philip-leons-philosophy-of-courage-by-glenn-f-chesnut/
26: http://www.abebooks.com/books/alcoholic-authors.shtml?cm_mmc=nl-_-nl-_-AR-09-08-_-booze
27: http://www.news-press.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080827/NEWS0116/808270408/1001/archives
28: http://www.brown.edu/Facilities/University_Library/publications/Bibliofile/Biblio26/Chester.html
29: http://www.popmatters.com/pm/review/franklin-evans-or-the-inebriate-by-walt-whitman-ed-christopher-castiglia-an
30: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&amp;field-keywords=Walt+Whitman+-+%22Inebriate%22&amp;x=11&amp;y=16
31: http://www.baumanrarebooks.com/rare-books/alcoholics-anonymous/twelve-steps-and-twelve-traditions/70545.aspx
32: http://www.filmcritic.com/misc/emporium.nsf/reviews/The-21-Best-Movie-Alcoholics-of-All-Time


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++++Message 4775. . . . . . . . . . . . Significant January Dates in A.A.
History
From: chesbayman56 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/1/2008 1:25:00 PM

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Significant January Dates in A.A. History

Jan 1929 - Bill W. wrote third promise in Bible to quit drinking.
Jan 1940 - Akron group moves to new home at King School.
Jan 1944 - Dr. Harry Tiebout's first paper on the subject of
"Alcoholics Anonymous".
Jan 1944 - onset of Bill's 11 years of depression.
Jan 1946 - Readers Digest does a story on AA.
Jan 1948 - 1st A.A. meeting in Japan
Jan 1951 - AA Grapevine publishes memorial issue for Dr Bob.
Jan 1958 - Bill writes article for Grapevine on "Emotional Sobriety".
Jan 1, 1943 - Columbus Dispatch reports 1st Anniversary of Columbus,
Ohio Central Group.
Jan 2, 1889 - Sister Ignatia born, Ballyhane Ireland.
Jan 3, 1939 - First sale of Works Publishing Co stock is recorded.
Jan 4, 1940 - 1st AA group formed in Detroit, Michigan.
Jan 5, 1939 - Dr Bob tells Ruth Hock in a letter that AA has "to get
away from the Oxford Group atmosphere".
Jan 5, 2001 - Chuck C. from Houston died sober in Texas at 38 years
sober.
Jan 6, 2000 - Stephen Poe, compiler of the Concordance to Alcoholics
Anonymous, died.
Jan 8, 1938 - New York AA splits from the Oxford Group.
Jan 10, 1940 - 1st AA meeting not in a home meets at King School,
Akron, Ohio.
Jan 13, 1988 - Dr Jack Norris Chairman/Trustee of AA for 27 years
dies.
Jan 13, 2003 - Dr Earle M sober for 49 years, author of "Physician
Heal Thyself" died.
Jan 15, 1937 - Fitz M brings AA meetings to Washington DC.
Jan 15, 1945 - First AA meeting held in Springfield, Missouri.
Jan 19, 1943 - 1st discussion for starting AA group in Toronto.
Jan 19, 1944 - Wilson's returned from 1st major A.A. tour started in
Oct 24 1943.
Jan 19, 1999 - Frank M., AA Archivist since 1983, died peacefully in
his sleep.
Jan 21, 1954 - Hank P who helped Bill start NY office dies in
Pennington, New Jersey.
Jan 23, 1985 - Bob B. died sober November 11, 2001.
Jan 24, 1918 - Bill marries Lois Burnham in the Swedenborgen Church
in Brookyn Heights.
Jan 24, 1945 - 1st black group St. Louis
Jan. 24, 1971 - Bill W dies at Miami Beach, FL.
Jan 25, 1915 - Dr. Bob marries Anne Ripley.
Jan 26, 1971 - New York Times publishes Bill's obituary on page 1.
Jan 30, 1961 - Dr Carl Jung answers Bill's letter with "Spiritus
Contra Spiritum".
End of Jan 1939 - 400 copies of manuscript of Big Book circulated for
comment, evaluation and sale.

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++++Message 4776. . . . . . . . . . . . Annette Smith, Social World of
Alcoholics Anonymous
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/2/2008 7:02:00 PM


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New book just out:

Annette R. Smith, Ph.D., "The Social World
of Alcoholics Anonymous: How It Works,"
December 2007, ISBN 978-0-595-47692-3,
xx + 150 pp.

http://hindsfoot.org/kas1.html

With an introduction by Linda Farris Kurtz,
DPA, Professor Emeritus, Eastern Michigan
University School of Social Work, author of
"Self-Help and Support Groups: A Handbook
for Practitioners."

http://hindsfoot.org/kas2.html

In the Preface to her book, Annette Smith
describes how she became involved in this
research:

Although I am not myself a member of A.A., I
have been intimately involved with the program
and its membership for many years. In 1969,
while I was working as a clinical social
worker on the alcoholism treatment unit at a
state mental hospital in California, the local
A.A. Hospital and Institutions Committee asked
to hold a meeting at the hospital. However,
the administration said there were no rooms
available. So, I arranged for the patients to
be bussed to my house every Thursday night,
where the meetings were held in my living room.
This went on for almost a year until the
hospital finally made a room available. During
this initial exposure to A.A., I developed
a close association with the fellowship, and
through the years I have continued to attend
open meetings and participate in many informal
A.A. social activities.

In 1982, I returned to graduate school at the
University of California, San Diego, to pursue
my Ph.D. in sociology. As I developed my socio-
logical interests, it seemed almost a natural
progression in my involvement with A.A. to be
able to look at it from the new perspective of
scholarly research. The primary content of
this book, including the data and references,
was originally part of the dissertation
submitted in 1991 in partial fulfillment of
my Ph.D. in Sociology.

The theoretical and methodological approaches
are those of symbolic interaction and quali-
tative field study. The focus is on interactive
processes, which are not captured by survey
research. Therefore, research efforts require
the kind of intimate familiarity that can only
be achieved through participant observation
and other qualitative methods. The supportive
data has been drawn primarily from participant
observation over a twenty-three-year period
in which I was associated with A.A. and from
in-depth interviews with fifty-one members
conducted in the course of the dissertation
and previous research (Smith, 1986). Examples
and citations presented included statements
heard during several hundred open A.A. meetings
in several geographic areas of the U.S. and
abroad, and both professional and personal
conversations with A.A. members. Additional
material and interpretive insights have been
drawn from the A.A. literature and referenced
secondary sources. Interview subjects were
initially recruited by placing notices on
bulletin boards at four local A.A. social clubs
and in chapter newsletters of the National
Council on Alcoholism and the Employee Assist-
ance Professionals Association. Interviews were
limited to those with at least two years of
continuous sobriety in an effort to provide
some protection against harmful emotional
effects to which those in early sobriety are
vulnerable. As patterns of experiences began
to emerge, additional subjects were sought
through snowball sampling that focused on the
need for stories reflecting these patterns.

The total interview sample consisted of
twenty-eight men and twenty-three women, with
ages ranging from nineteen to seventy. Length
of sobriety ranged from two to over twenty
years. All interviewees could be categorized
as low middle to middle class, with occupa-
tions ranging from skilled labor to technical
and professional. Three women and two men were
unemployed at the time of the interview. Only
one of the women categorized herself as a
homemaker, and none of the subjects were
retired. Ethnically, most were Caucasian,
although one black male, one Native American
male, and one Hispanic female were also in
the sample. These variations did not appear
to affect the general pattern of experiences
reflected for those constructs under study.

A topic guide was used for interviews that
established demographic information on age
and other categories, including date of A.A.
membership and date of current continuous
sobriety. Questions addressed included the
individual's perception of himself or herself
in terms of interpersonal relationships and
preferred ways of associating with others,
how he or she first came to A.A., what happened
there, feelings about what happened and ways
in which the person has participated in A.A.
since. The interviewees were also asked how
and when they accepted themselves as alcoholic,
and what they saw as most important in A.A.
recovery. As the various chapters of this book
were completed, they were read by selected A.A.
members for accuracy of organizational informa-
tion and validity of suggested patterns and
constructs. In the presentation of data, great
care has been taken to protect the anonymity
and confidentiality of all living A.A. members.

Subsequently, a new edition of the Big Book
of Alcoholics Anonymous was issued (AAWS, 2001),
and several noteworthy works have been added
to the qualitative research literature. A
paper on the social construction of group
dependency based on a chapter of the disserta-
tion was published (Smith, 1993). Makela,
Arminen, Bloomfield, et al. (1996) compared
the development of A.A. as a social movement
in eight societies; Wilcox (1998), Jensen
(1999) and Pollner and Stein (2001) provided
studies of aspects of A.A. culture; and
O'Halloran (2003) examined differences between
ethnographic and ethnomethodological (conversa-
tion analysis) methods in studying Alcoholics
Anonymous. Other relevant publications on
the subject include L. Kurtz's (1997) handbook
for practitioners on self-help and support
groups, which references some of the material
included in the dissertation, and Bishop and
Pittman's (1994) second volume of their A.A.
bibliography.

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++++Message 4777. . . . . . . . . . . . Bob P. (GSO Manager 1974-84) died
Jan. 1st
From: Mike Terhune . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/1/2008 8:36:00 PM

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Bob P. -- A Sober Life Well Lived

General Manager of the General Service Office
from 1974 to 1984

At 2:14 MST this morning, January 1, 2008,
Bob Pearson departed this life at the age of
90, sober for the final 46-1/2 years. Born
February 19, 1917, Bob leaves behind a loving
wife of 63 years and a family of children,
grandchildren and great-grandchildren, along
with a countless host of alcoholics ever
indebted to his life of love and service.

- - - -

At the suggestion of Carter E., I wanted to
share my tiny bit of AA history with this group.
The following is a tribute to a dear friend
that I posted to the NRV AA listserver:

For several hours yesterday afternoon, I once
again found myself blessed by sobriety and the
fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous. Along
with a dozen AA's and several other friends,
I was invited by the family of Robert G.
Pearson to attend the celebration of a life
well lived.

Crowded into a small bedroom at his home in
Bellevue, Idaho, we were given the opportunity
to sit with Bob and express our love, sadness
and gratitude in a way rarely seen outside of
our program and, certainly, in a manner never
before experienced by this servant.

I first met Bob P. in May 2004 at a meeting
in a room typical of many AA meetings, a tiny
confine in the basement of a church hall in
Hailey, Idaho. Outwardly, this man appeared
no different from any other drunk I've met in
many other meetings over the past quarter
century, though a bit older than most. He
began his share with "My name's Bob and I'm
a happy alcoholic," as he would each and
every time he spoke in AA. His precise words
of that day are lost with the passing of time
but I'm certain his theme was as it always
was: the joys of a sober life and the fact
that AA does not teach us how to stop drinking,
but how to live life without drinking.

At the end of the meeting, Bob asked if anyone
in the room would be attending the upcoming
Spring Assembly in Pocatello. As newly
appointed GSR for my group, I had been looking
for someone to share the three-hour ride.
I introduced myself to him and was immediately
invited to drive him and his wife, Betsy, to
the conference. Along the way, I learned
much about the amazing life of this wonderful
couple.

Previously of Greenwich, CT, Bob had worked
for the Grapevine, later becoming its editor.
It was during this time that he met Bill W.
Bob often related the tale of their first
meeting, Bob gushing all over Bill and Bill
replying with the simple phrase "Pass it on."
From 1974 to 1984, Bob served as General Manager
of the G.S.O. and was its Senior Adviser from
1985 until his retirement in 1987. As Bob
napped along the way, Betsy regaled me with
stories of the times they had shared with
Bill and Lois.

By the end of the trip we had become fast
friends. I've since often been invited to
house sit for the couple and entrusted with
the care of their pets during their frequent
travels about the country. I have shared many
a Tuesday afternoon lunch with them after
the noon meeting of the Wood River "To Handle
Sobriety Group," Bob's home group. Bob and
Bets, along with their sons (Brad and Ridley)
and daughter (Wendy) have become, in their
words, a surrogate family for me here in Idaho.

Though I never heard Bob tell his entire story
at an AA meeting, I was privileged to again
drive him to Pocatello where he was to be the
featured speaker for a group anniversary.
After his introduction, he asked those in
attendance if we would mind if he did not
share his E, S & H, rather telling us stories
of his time in New York, of (previously, to me)
nameless characters from the Big Book and a
bit of the history of Alcoholics Anonymous.
Of course, no one minded and Bob captured this
group of drunks for more than an hour with
a chronicle of AA brought to life.

Sadly, we have lost a connection to our legacy.
At 2:14 MST this morning, Bob Pearson departed
this life at the age of 90, sober for the
final 46-1/2 years. Born February 19, 1917,
Bob leaves behind a loving wife of 63 years,
a family of children, grandchildren and great-
grandchildren, along with a countless host
of alcoholics ever indebted to his life of
love and service.

Goodbye, Cap'n.. you will be missed

Mike Terhune

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++++Message 4778. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Don Black: baseball players and
anonymity issues
From: aalogsdon@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/2/2008 3:02:00 PM

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I have some information on Don Black and much
more on Hemsley. I have nothing to indicate
they knew each other. I have a pamphlet with
Black's picture and short story published by
the World League Against Alcoholism of
Westerville, Ohio reproduced by permission
from article by Kenneth F. Weaver in THE
ALLIED YOUTH and an oversized baseball card
by Capital Publishing Company with stats.

For information on his sudden collapse on
the field and later death see NOW PITCHING
Bob Feller with Bill Gilbert on pages 142,
155, 157, 161-162.

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++++Message 4779. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Amelia Reynolds, Oxford Group
author
From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/30/2007 3:42:00 PM

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"diazeztone" <eztone@...> wrote:
>
> Information wanted about Amelia S. Reynolds,
> an Oxford Group author. She wrote:
>
> Amelia S. Reynolds, "New Lives for Old" (New
> York: Fleming H. Revell, 1929). 96 pages
>

Could she be the same person as Mrs. Howard
Reynolds of Winnipeg, Manitoba? Mrs. Reynolds
was quoted in a 1936 Time article about the
Stockbridge Oxford Group event: "Our budget
is God-controlled. There is a real thrill
and purpose in teas and dinner parties."

Howard Reynolds later directed many of the
MRA dramatic productions, according to Garth
Lean's book about Buchman.

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++++Message 4780. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Pamphlet in Physician Heal
Thyself ???
From: pmds@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/28/2007 2:09:00 PM

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I heard him tell that story many times ...
he described it as a piece of paper on which
was written something like "Considerations for
the man who is thinking about stopping drinking."

The person who gave it to him, whose name I've
forgotten, was a fraternity brother of Earle's
and lived in Marin County quite near where
Earle lived.

Earle wrote a book with the same title as his
story in the Big Book, and the information
may be in there.

- - - -

Original message 4774 from Terry W
<twalton@3gcinc.com> (twalton at 3gcinc.com)

What was the title of the AA pamphlet
mentioned in the Big Book story "Physician,
Heal Thyself" ???

In the personal story of Earle Marsh he
mentions a pamphlet given to him by a friend.
Does anyone know who the friend was, or the
title of the pamphlet described below? I am
assuming it was an AA pamphlet. Is it still
in circulation?

BB story page 346 3rd ed.

On the last day I was drinking I went up to
see a friend who had had a good deal of trouble
with alcohol, and whose wife had left him a
number of times. He had come back, however,
and he was on this program. In my stupid way
I went up to see him with the idea in the
back of my mind that I would investigate
Alcoholics Anonymous from a medical stand-
point. Deep in my heart was the feeling that
maybe I could get some help here.

This friend gave me a pamphlet, and I took
it home and had my wife read it to me. There
were two sentences in it that struck me.

One said, "Don't feel that you are a martyr
because you stopped drinking," and this hit
me between the eyes.

The second one said, "Don't feel that you
stop drinking for anyone other than yourself,"
and this hit me between the eyes.

Thank you,
Terry W

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++++Message 4781. . . . . . . . . . . . Matt Talbot research
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/31/2007 3:46:00 PM

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For those of you who are interested in the
figure of Matt Talbot, a good scholar in A.A.
history named John Blair has just started
a website which brings together a enormous
amount of material on him:
______________________________

Venerable Matt Talbot Resource Center

http://venerablematttalbotresourcecenter.blogspot.com/

"The Venerable Matt Talbot Resource Center
blogspot exists to compile writings about the
life, times, and alcoholism recovery of Matt
Talbot (1856-1925) from Dublin, Ireland.
Disclaimer: The placing of information on
this blogspot from external linked sources
does not necessarily imply agreement with
that information. This center is independent
of any other group or organization."
______________________________

Among early AA authors, Father Ralph Pfau
(the Father John Doe of the Golden Books)
was a strong supporter of Matt Talbot as an
example of how a spiritual triumph over
alcoholism could be accomplished.

William D. Silkworth, M.D. (1873-1951) also
encouraged the formation of Matt Talbot
groups in Catholic parish churches in a
talk he gave which was published in the
National Clergy Conference on Alcoholism's
Blue Book: "The Prevention of Alcoholism:
A Challenge to the Catholic Clergy." This
article is available online at:

http://silkworth.net/silkworth/prevention.html

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 4782. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Pamphlet in Physician Heal
Thyself ???
From: TBaerMojo@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/3/2008 9:09:00 AM

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If you google for the words "15 points for an
alcoholic to consider" you will find a pdf of
a brochure by that name printed by Alcoholics
Anonymous - UK which has the text that you are
seeking.

http://www.alcoholics-anonymous.org.uk/newcomer/pack/15_Points.pdf

I have a photocopy of a very old version of
the same information printed by Street Printing
Company in Birmingham, Alabama in the 1940s.
It was locally produced but I have not yet
found a surviving original printed copy.

Tim B.

- - - -

Terry W. was looking for the source of
these two phrases:

One said, "Don't feel that you are a martyr
because you stopped drinking," and this hit
me between the eyes.

The second one said, "Don't feel that you
stop drinking for anyone other than your-
self," and this hit me between the eyes.

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++++Message 4783. . . . . . . . . . . . Little Red Book: first 7 editions
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/4/2008 3:35:00 PM

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A while back, Jack H. in Scottsdale, Arizona,
told me that there were two print runs of
The Little Red Book made in 1949. The only
difference between the two 1949 print runs
was that the first printing had a minor
typesetting error (a segment of text inserted
upside down) and was recalled as soon as this
was discovered, so that not many copies of
the first printing actually got out.

- - - -

Mark F. just sent me an email in which he said:

To Whom it May concern: I received a Little
Red Book from my sponsor after he passed away,
the cool thing is it is a 1949 First Printing.
To verify the two top sentences on pg 62 are
upside down. So I can see why they decided
to produce a second printing that year.
Thanks for the information.

- - - -

So based on what Mark has now verified about
the 1949 printing, together with the inform-
ation we already had posted from Jack H.
(Scottsdale, Arizona) and Tommy H. (Baton
Rouge, Louisiana), we can lay out a fully
verified time line and description for all of
the early printings of The Little Red Book.

1st edition August 1946

2nd edition January 1947 (distinctively red cover)

3rd edition later in 1947 (dull maroon cover)

4th edition 1948

5th edition 1949 had two print runs. In the
first print run, the two top sentences on
pg 62 were upside down. This was corrected
in the second print run.

6th edition 1950

7th edition 1951 (and so on)

- - - -

Ed Webster kept on making changes in the book
during that period from 1946 to 1949, and in
fact kept on making changes in the book all
the way to the end of his life in 1971.

We should remember that numerous changes were
also made in The Little Red Book after Ed
Webster's death on June 3, 1971, by editors
at the Hazelden Foundation who believed that
they "could write better" about alcoholism
than Ed Webster. But they did not make changes
that fundamentally changed any of the basic
material, so the version of The Little Red
Book currently available from Hazelden is
still usable for AA beginners classes.

Use of The Little Red Book was approved by
the New York AA office at a very early date,
and it is perfectly acceptable for reading
in AA meetings.

Jack H. argued that the 1949 edition should
be taken as a kind of benchmark version for
many purposes, since this was the last edition
where Dr. Bob had had any input into the book.
I can see a kind of sense in what he said.

- - - -

Message 4021 from Glenn Chesnut
glennccc@sbcglobal.net (glennccc at sbcglobal.net)
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/4021
laid out most of this.

See also http://hindsfoot.org/ed02.html

And thanks again to Mark F. for writing me
and telling me what he had found.

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++++Message 4784. . . . . . . . . . . . Bob P.''s obituary
From: Mike . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/4/2008 11:05:00 AM

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From today's Idaho Mountain Express:

Robert Greenlees Pearson

With his wife, Betsy, children, Brad, Wendy
and Ridley, their spouses and his grandchil-
dren by his side, Bob Pearson died peacefully
of "old age" in his home in Bellevue, Idaho,
on Jan. 1, 2008.

Born the only child of somewhat nomadic parents,
Ridley Stilson and Agnes Greenlees Pearson,
on Feb. 19, 1917, Bob was not formally edu-
cated until the third grade. He took to
academics easily, skipping grades and gradu-
ating from Kansas University at 18, where he
served as editor of both the university's
humor magazine and yearbook. A skilled writer,
Bob was the focus of a national scandal when
a Scribner's Magazine article, "Ghost Behind
the Grade," published in 1938, revealed that
e had paid his way through college by ghost-
writing hundreds of grade-specific papers for
fellow students in dozens of classes and
seven universities. His writing led him to
New York City where he went to work for the
Shell Oil Co. in public relations, and later
met his wife of 63 years, Betsy Dodge.

With the advent of World War II, Bob enlisted
as an officer in the U.S. Navy, and was
assigned aboard a destroyer escort as the
ship's gunnery officer. He participated in
numerous missions in convoys across the
Atlantic. Bob wrote speeches for the admiral
of the Navy, as well as for two presidents,
Franklin D. Roosevelt and Harry Truman. His
destroyer escort was part of the historic
capture of a German U-boat, north of the
Azores. It was the first submarine ever
boarded and taken prior to the destruction
of any of its hardware or its Enigma radio
codes -— only days prior to D-Day, later
immortalized in the motion picture "U-571."
In 1945, he was honorably discharged,
holding the rank of lieutenant commander.

Following the war, Bob and Betsy eventually
settled in Riverside, Connecticut, where Bob
was an avid runner and skier and served as
senior deacon in the First Congregational
Church of Greenwich. In his 38 years with
Shell Oil, Bob's most notable accomplishments
involved that company's sponsoring of major
sports. Working with the NBC television
network, Bob was instrumental in popularizing
golf by bringing the sport to live television
for the first time in "Shell's Wonderful World
of Golf." He also participated in Shell's
sponsorship of Craig Breedlove's pursuit of
the world land speed record in a jet-propelled
car, on the Bonneville Salt Flats in the
mid-1960s.

But it was Bob's personal crisis that would
prove to define his life. Beginning with his
service in the Navy, Bob had grown addicted
to alcohol and, some 20 years later, nearly
died of alcoholism. He was encouraged by
physicians to join a fledgling group called
Alcoholics Anonymous, in Greenwich, Connect-
icut, in 1961. Bob P., as he was known in
that organization, found sobriety and dedi-
cated himself to AA service, even working on
occasion with its co-founder, Bill W. He
served on local and national boards of AA, and
eventually was appointed general manager of
AA's World Service Organization, where, for
10 years, 1974-1984, he oversaw the enormous
international growth and spread of AA worldwide.
The organization played an influential role in
the establishment of over a hundred unrelated,
so-called 12-step programs, which have resulted
in millions' conquering various addictions.
Through his service to AA, Bob P., with wife
Betsy (a longtime member of Al-Anon), traveled
the world, speaking to both small AA groups as
well as at its international conventions of
50,000 or more attendees. His "AA story" was
published as the closing story in "Alcoholics
Anonymous," AA's "Big Book," which remains one
of the most widely published and perennially
best-selling books in the world.

Bob and Betsy moved part-time to Bellevue,
Idaho, in 1980, soon making it their permanent
home. Here, Bob P. continued to serve AA, both
as a speaker and contributor to its national
archives. Bob's life was defined by his
dedicated service to Alcoholics Anonymous, an
organization whose members depend on one
another for their survival. His family wishes
to extend their thanks to the hundreds of local
AA members, and thousands of national members,
who supported Bob's sobriety, gave him a
charmed life, and who continue the great
traditions of this wonderful and necessary
organization.

A memorial celebrating Bob P.'s service in
Alcoholics Anonymous will be held Friday,
Jan. 11, (check local flyers) in Sun Valley,
Idaho; a public memorial for friends and
family will take place at the Church of the
Big Wood, Ketchum, Idaho, at 4 p.m., Saturday,
Jan. 12. Donations in Bob's name will be
gratefully accepted by the Sun Club, Ketchum,
Idaho.

(The entire Pearson family wishes to extend
their gratitude to Drs. Hall and Fairman,
Hospice and Palliative Care of the Wood River
Valley, and especially Johnna Pletcher and
Gloria Clark for their loving in-home care
and assistance.)

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++++Message 4785. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Little Red Book: first 7
editions
From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/4/2008 5:04:00 PM

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At 14:35 1/4/2008 , Glenn Chesnut wrote:
>
>1st edition August 1946
>
>2nd edition January 1947 (distinctively red cover)
>
>3rd edition later in 1947 (dull maroon cover)
>
>4th edition 1948
>
>5th edition 1949 had two print runs. In the
>first print run, the two top sentences on
>pg 62 were upside down. This was corrected
>in the second print run.
>
>6th edition 1950
>
>7th edition 1951 (and so on)

A nice summary, Glenn. However, I would note
that these early Little Red Books are usually
referred to by printing number, not edition.
That said, these numbers were not assigned
until the 11th printing in 1954.

I believe the more proper descriptive word
would be edition as you use it as changes were
made for the different printings. Use of the
word printing implies that the content is the
same, but we know that to be different in this
case.

For those interested, the copyrights are as
follows:

Printings 1-5 1946
6 1946-1950
7 1950
8-9 1951
11-14 1951
15-25 1957

There are no copies of the 10th printing that
I am aware of and I don't know the story.
Any info on this would be greatly appreciated.

I would also like to point out that this
information is for the Coll-Webb editions of
the Little Red Book and they are in a larger
format book than the Hazelden printings which
started some time in the 1960s. There are at
my count seven different types published by
Hazelden in the smaller format with the 1957
Coll-Webb copyright.

Glenn C. went on to say:

>Ed Webster kept on making changes in the book
>during that period from 1946 to 1949, and in
>fact kept on making changes in the book all
>the way to the end of his life in 1971.
>
>Jack H. argued that the 1949 edition should
>be taken as a kind of benchmark version for
>many purposes, since this was the last edition
>where Dr. Bob had had any input into the book.
>I can see a kind of sense in what he said.
>

I think Jack is correct. It would be inter-
esting to tabulate the changes from the first
printing in 1946 thru the fifth in 1949.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

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++++Message 4786. . . . . . . . . . . . AA Recovery Outcome Rates
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/6/2008 8:03:00 PM

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Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) Recovery Outcome
Rates: Contemporary Myth and Misinterpretation

January 1, 2008

By Arthur S. (Arlington, Texas),
Tom E. (Wappingers Falls, New York),
and Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

See http://hindsfoot.org/archive3.html

This article cannot be sent out in email
format, because of all its charts, graphs,
notes and so on.

It can be read as an Adobe PDF file:
http://hindsfoot.org/recout01.pdf

Or as an MS Word DOC file:
http://hindsfoot.org/recout01.doc

The A.A. Triennial Membership Surveys for
1977 through 1989 show that, of those people
who are in their first month of attending A.A.
meetings, 26% will still be attending A.A.
meetings at the end of that year.

Of those who are in their fourth month of
attending A.A. meetings (i.e., those who
have completed their initial ninety days,
and have thereby demonstrated a certain
willingness to really try the program),
56% will still be attending A.A. meetings
at the end of that year.

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++++Message 4787. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill W. and drugs
From: Jim S. . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/7/2008 1:03:00 PM

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Occasionally I hear or read that Bill W. took
"a laundry list" of drugs during his sober
years, yet I can't seem to get any details,
except for the false statement that he
"dropped acid for five years." Can anyone
point me to this "laundry list" he used?

Jim S.

- - - -

Jim,

SEDATIVES:

There are numerous references to Bill W. (and
many other early AA people, like Father John
Doe) taking "sedatives," which seems to have
meant mostly barbiturates and powerful bromide
compounds. These compounds were what drug
addicts call "downers," but barbiturates were
not designated as controlled substances in the
United States until 1970. Bromides just about
totally disappeared from the market when
better sedatives were developed.

LSD:

On LSD, go to our message board at
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/messages
and do a search for "LSD." You will find over
40 past messages on this topic. The basic
account of how Bill W. experimented with LSD
is found in Ernie Kurtz, "Drugs and the
Spiritual: Bill W. Takes LSD" in Ernie's book,
"The Collected Ernie Kurtz," p. 39.

At the time Bill W. was experimenting with
it, it had only recently been developed.
It was not yet illegal, nor had its
potential for misuse and harm been dis-
covered yet.

MARIJUANA:

In the 1920s and 30s, musicians like Louis
Armstrong and Bing Crosby were using marijuana
(just as later on, Bob Dylan, John Lennon,
Paul McCartney, and John Denver used it).

In 1936, the movie "Reefer Madness" (originally
financed by a church group) portrayed high
school students being lured into marijuana
usage leading to a hit and run accident,
manslaughter, suicide, rape, and the descent
into madness:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reefer_Madness

Franklin D. Roosevelt's administration
criminalized marijuana in the United
States in 1937.

I have never found any reference however
to early AA members being involved
specifically with marijuana, or making
any specific mention of it, so I do not
know whether it was an issue to them or
not.

OTHER DRUGS:

As far as I can tell, when early AA people
referred to "drug addicts," they seem to
have been referring mostly to opium smokers
and people who injected heroin or snorted
cocaine. As the old jazz lyrics went,
"Honey, take a whiff on me":

http://sniff.numachi.com/pages/tiWHIFFME.html
http://www.cocaine.org/cocaine-habit.html
http://www.traditionalmusic.co.uk/folk-songs-with-chords/Take%20A%20Whiff%20
On%2\

0Me.htm [1]

Early AA people were a different social
class (doctors, lawyers, stock brokers,
business people, newspaper people, and
so on) from the jazz musicians and people
from the urban slums who were involved
in drugs of that sort back in the 1930s
and 40s.

Most Americans were not exposed to these
drugs in the 1930s, 40s, and 50s. In fact,
it was not until the latter 1960s and early
70s that the average American came into any
contact with drugs of this sort.

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

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++++Message 4788. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Little Red Book: first 7
editions
From: handlebarick . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/5/2008 6:06:00 PM

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Greetings all; I have:
1. A Large Second Printing January 1947 Copyright 1946 By Coll-Webb
Company International Copyright 1946. Has no outside writing on
cover. This one on inside page one (counting back from first page
with a number being # NINE)is printed only the words The Twelve
Steps. On page three printed is: An Interpretation of The Twelve
Steps of the Alcoholics Anonymous Program, Coll-Webb Co., Publishers
P.O. Box 564 Minneapolis, Minnesota MCMXLVII
Copyright info is on page four.

2.A Large Eighteenth Printing 1964 and on (unnumbered)page one only
states: The Little Red Book On page (unnumbered)three printing is:
The Little Red Book An Orthodox Interpretation of The Twelve Steps
of the Alcoholics Anonymous Program 1964 The Little Red Book Box
564, Main P.O. Minneapolis, Minnesota 55440 United States of America.
Page four has Copyright 1957 International Copyright 1957 By Coll-
Webb Company. Also on this page is a lists of printings that reads:
1st printing 1946
2nd printing 1947
3rd printing 1947
4th printing 1948
5th printing 1949
6th printing 1950
7th printing 1951
8th printing 1952
9th printing 1953
10TH PRINTING 1954*
11th printing 1955
12th printing 1957
13th printing 1959
14th printing 1960
15th printing 1961
16th printing 1962
17th printing 1963
18th printing 1964
* states 10th printing
Also printed on this page is: $2.50 U.S.A. $2.75 Outside Territorial
U.S.A. Printed and Manufactured in the United States of America.

3. A (Still) LARGE Twenty-fourth printing 1970. Page one (unnumbered)
prints: The Little Red Book. Page three states The Little Red Book An
Orthodox Interpretation of The Twelve Steps Of The Alcoholics
Anonymous Program 1970 Hazelden Center City, Minnesota 55012. Page
four states: Copyright 1957 International Copyright 1957 By Coll-Webb
Company. Also on this page:
Twenty Printings from 1946-1966
21st printing 1967
22nd printing 1968
23rd printing 1969
24th printing 1970

4. A Large 1996 50th Anniversary by Hazelton/Pittman

5. A Small edition. Page one (unnumbered) reads: THe Little Red Book.
Page three states: The Little Red Book An Orthodox Interpretation of
The Twelve Steps of The Alcoholics Anonymous Program Hazelden Center
City, MN, 55012 Page four is limited to Copyright 1957 International
Copyright 1957 By Coll-Webb Company. (No printing Date or number)
Also page four has ISBN 0-89486-004-6 Printed and Manufactured in the
United States of America.

6. A Small Revised Edition Inside unnumbered page three reads: The
Little Red Book. Inside unnumbered page five states: The Little Red
Book Hazelden (only) Inside unnumbered page six: First published
1957 Revised Edition, Copyright 1986 Hazelden Foundation. Printed in
the United States of America. Also has Editor's note: proclaiming
it's disclaimer. Author's Note is numbered 1.

All these books have statements of Rights Reserved on page four.

Rick S. Wapakoneta, OH

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Tom Hickcox <cometkazie1@...>
wrote:
>
> At 14:35 1/4/2008 , Glenn Chesnut wrote:
> >
> >1st edition August 1946
> >
> >2nd edition January 1947 (distinctively red cover)
> >
> >3rd edition later in 1947 (dull maroon cover)
> >
> >4th edition 1948
> >
> >5th edition 1949 had two print runs. In the
> >first print run, the two top sentences on
> >pg 62 were upside down. This was corrected
> >in the second print run.
> >
> >6th edition 1950
> >
> >7th edition 1951 (and so on)
>
> A nice summary, Glenn. However, I would note
> that these early Little Red Books are usually
> referred to by printing number, not edition.
> That said, these numbers were not assigned
> until the 11th printing in 1954.
>
> I believe the more proper descriptive word
> would be edition as you use it as changes were
> made for the different printings. Use of the
> word printing implies that the content is the
> same, but we know that to be different in this
> case.
>
> For those interested, the copyrights are as
> follows:
>
> Printings 1-5 1946
> 6 1946-1950
> 7 1950
> 8-9 1951
> 11-14 1951
> 15-25 1957
>
> There are no copies of the 10th printing that
> I am aware of and I don't know the story.
> Any info on this would be greatly appreciated.
>
> I would also like to point out that this
> information is for the Coll-Webb editions of
> the Little Red Book and they are in a larger
> format book than the Hazelden printings which
> started some time in the 1960s. There are at
> my count seven different types published by
> Hazelden in the smaller format with the 1957
> Coll-Webb copyright.
>
> Glenn C. went on to say:
>
> >Ed Webster kept on making changes in the book
> >during that period from 1946 to 1949, and in
> >fact kept on making changes in the book all
> >the way to the end of his life in 1971.
> >
> >Jack H. argued that the 1949 edition should
> >be taken as a kind of benchmark version for
> >many purposes, since this was the last edition
> >where Dr. Bob had had any input into the book.
> >I can see a kind of sense in what he said.
> >
>
> I think Jack is correct. It would be inter-
> esting to tabulate the changes from the first
> printing in 1946 thru the fifth in 1949.
>
> Tommy H in Baton Rouge
>

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++++Message 4789. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bob P.''s obituary
From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/5/2008 4:13:00 PM

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At 10:05 1/4/2008 , Mike wrote:

>His
>destroyer escort was part of the historic
>capture of a German U-boat, north of the
>Azores. It was the first submarine ever
>boarded and taken prior to the destruction
>of any of its hardware or its Enigma radio
>codes -— only days prior to D-Day, later
>immortalized in the motion picture "U-571."

I mean no disrespect to the memory of Bob P
but this statement is incorrect.

Since it has nothing to do with A.A. history,
those interested may contact me off-list for
the details.

Tommy H

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++++Message 4790. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W. and drugs
From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/7/2008 2:28:00 PM

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A doctor came with a heavy sedative. Next day
found me drinking both gin and sedative without
the usual penalty.

http://www.aabibliography.com/aapioneers/bills_story.htm

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++++Message 4791. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W. and drugs
From: Corky . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/7/2008 10:04:00 PM

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Jim S.

Chapter 23 in "Pass It On" (pp. 368-377) refers
to Bill's experiment with LSD.

Corky F.

- - - -

This reference also sent in by Jim L.
Sober186@aol.com (Sober186 at aol.com)

- - - -

Original Message from: Jim S.
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 12:03 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Bill W. and drugs

Occasionally I hear or read that Bill W. took
"a laundry list" of drugs during his sober
years, yet I can't seem to get any details,
except for the false statement that he
"dropped acid for five years." Can anyone
point me to this "laundry list" he used?

Jim S.

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++++Message 4792. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill W''s travels from Brooklyn to
Newark
From: schaberg43 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/12/2008 11:46:00 AM

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Research tells me that Bill Wilson lived at
182 Clinton Street in Brooklyn NY in 1938 and
that, during that year, he dictated chapters
of the Big Book to Ruth Hock in the Newark,
New Jersey, offices of Honor Dealers at
17 Williams Street.

Bill did not have a car, (nor, to my knowledge,
did he have a friend with a car), so how did
he get from the borough east of Manhattan to
Newark, New Jersey, with some regularity?

I have asked older New York friends and they
have not been able to recall what forms of
public transportation might have been in
place at that time for such an extensive
trip (according to Google Maps over 13 miles
-- 10 of those in New Jersey).

AND, if anyone does have an idea of how Bill
might have accomplished this, can you estimate
the time it might have taken and how much it
might have cost?

Best,

Old Bill

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++++Message 4793. . . . . . . . . . . . History of the term Conference
Approved
From: chief_roger . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/12/2008 10:22:00 AM

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In diner discussion recently following a
meeting the question was raised, when did we
begin to use the term conference approved AA
literature to separate it as different from
central office publications and other material
related to alcoholism or recovery?

I searched the many postings on conference
approved, have the Box 459 article explaining
what is meant and not meant and discovered
that the very first GSC Literature Committee
Advisory Action in 1951 was "In future years,
A.A. textbook literature should have Conference
approval (Agenda Committee). Prior to the
vote on this subject, it was pointed out that
the adoption of the suggestion should not
preclude the continued issuance of various
printed documents by non-Foundation sources.
No desire to review, edit or censor non-
Foundation material is implied. The objective
is to provide, in the future, a means of
distinguishing Foundation literature from
that issued locally or by non-A.A. interests."

This seems the beginning of AA practice in
separating literature.

Anyone know how the term "conference approved"
evolved into the AA lexicon?

Roger W.

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++++Message 4794. . . . . . . . . . . . AA success rate: revised/updated
report
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/14/2008 9:07:00 PM

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During the past week, members of the group
have written in about the article "Alcoholics
Anonymous (AA) Recovery Outcome Rates:
Contemporary Myth and Misinterpretation,"
with some corrections and also some sugges-
tions for a slight revision here and there.

The original version (see Message 4786) was
put on line on January 6, 2008.

The revised/updated report has now been placed
on line as of this evening (January 14, 2008).

It can be read as an Adobe PDF file:
http://hindsfoot.org/recout01.pdf

Or as an MS Word DOC file:
http://hindsfoot.org/recout01.doc

Among other observations, this article notes
how the A.A. Triennial Membership Surveys
show that, of those people who are in their
first month of attending A.A. meetings,
26% will still be attending A.A. meetings
at the end of that year.

And of those who are in their fourth month
of attending A.A. meetings (i.e., those who
have completed their initial ninety days,
and have thereby demonstrated a certain
willingness to really try the program),
56% will still be attending A.A. meetings
at the end of that year.

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++++Message 4795. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W''s travels from Brooklyn
to Newark
From: Tom White . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/12/2008 6:53:00 PM

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Dear Old Bill:

I really should not be writing this "answer,"
but I can't resist a little nostalgic ponti-
ficating. Remember, this was in the LATE
THIRTIES, a period before every man Jack and
his son Joe had a car, maybe two or three,
and the streets were manageable in a way
people can hardly imagine today. But that
is not really important in this connection.

What is important is that the city of New
York, all five boroughs, had a smashingly
great, world-class, transport system and,
as a late as my time (1950s), the unit cost
for some incredibly long rides was a nickel,
five cents, really. It may have been that
Bill would have had to add a few cents for
the jog into New Jersey, but I don't know.
Never went there much myself except by ferry
to Hoboken (5 cents) to have some early a.m.
beers, because they opened early or never
shut, I forget which.

Mind you the whole thing from Brooklyn to
Jersey would have taken but minutes. Some
old-timer may know just how many. 13 miles
is a hop skip and a jump. It was then, and
should be now, but we have forgotten how it
to do it. Get your car out and expect it take
two hours, maybe more. Progress: the deepest
illusion of Americans.

Tom W. Odessa, TX

- - - -

From: "tommy" <fulmertr@etown.edu>
(fulmertr at etown.edu)

The DeCamp bus line started in 1870 and is
still running today from New York to New Jersey.

web site <http://www.decamp.com/about.htm>

Hope this helps, Tommy

- - - -

From: "Lee Nickerson" <snowlily@megalink.net>
(snowlily at megalink.net)

Bus: Brooklyn Bridge to Canal St., thru
Holland Tunnel to Jersey City, north two miles
or so to Newark. Probably 10 cents each way.

- - -

From: "johnlawlee" <johnlawlee@yahoo.com>
(johnlawlee at yahoo.com)

I've asked myself the same question, having
crossed from Manhattan to New Jersey hundreds
of times, both drunk and sober. My speculation
is that Hank Parkhurst drove Bill to New
Jersey regularly, but not daily.

Bill took the subway from Brooklyn Heights
to Lower Manhattan. Hank lived in Montclair,
a nice suburb of Newark. Hank would have
likely driven to Lower Manhattan, picked up
Bill, and gone either to Newark or Towns
Hospital on Central Park West. The two of
them were visiting Towns weekly, trying to
save drunks.

There were no PATH trains from New Jersey
to the World Trade Center at that time. Bill
could have taken a bus from Lower Manhattan
through the Holland Tunnel to Newark, but
the trip from Brooklyn to Newark would have
taken a half day.

There's always been the Main Line of the
Pennsylvania Railroad from Pennsylvania
Station to downtown Newark, but that would
have involved numerous subway transfers.

I suspect that Bill only went to the Newark
office once or twice a week, and tried to
dovetail those visits with 12th Step work
with Hank.

Bill was undoubtedly eager to move the
office to Lower Manhattan, the location of
his past glories.

*****************************

Original message 4792 from
<schaberg@aol.com> (schaberg at aol.com)

> Research tells me that Bill Wilson lived at
> 182 Clinton Street in Brooklyn NY in 1938 and
> that, during that year, he dictated chapters
> of the Big Book to Ruth Hock in the Newark,
> New Jersey, offices of Honor Dealers at
> 17 Williams Street.
>
> Bill did not have a car, (nor, to my knowledge,
> did he have a friend with a car), so how did
> he get from the borough east of Manhattan to
> Newark, New Jersey, with some regularity?
>
> I have asked older New York friends and they
> have not been able to recall what forms of
> public transportation might have been in
> place at that time for such an extensive
> trip (according to Google Maps over 13 miles
> -- 10 of those in New Jersey).
>
> AND, if anyone does have an idea of how Bill
> might have accomplished this, can you estimate
> the time it might have taken and how much it
> might have cost?
>
> Best,
>
> Old Bill

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++++Message 4796. . . . . . . . . . . . AA success rate: 92% and 85% in
Tennessee
From: Wesley Brauer . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/15/2008 1:40:00 PM

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My name is Wes, I reside in New York.

But while living in Tennessee, a friend of
mine conducted a survey of sober members in
Area 64. His name is Scott L.

He found that members that do service work
have a recovery rate of 92% if you commit to
2 hours per month of a service commitment in
the area, district or intergroup level.

He also found that if you did a minimal 4 hrs
per month at the home group level there was
an 85% recovery rate!

Wes Brauer

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++++Message 4797. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Little Red Book: the earliest
printings
From: DudleyDobinson@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/13/2008 1:26:00 PM

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Thanks Rick,

I can complete a couple of gaps in your list.

The 19th & 20th printings were made in 1965
& 1966.

Also there were two printings in 1970:
the 24th & 25th.

Worth noting that the text in the 50th
anniversary edition in 1996 is actually from
the 1949 5th printing.

[ photo at http://hindsfoot.org/ed02.html ]

I have all these books with the exception
of the 10th, which I have been looking for
for some seven years. Also I do not have
the copy of the fifth printing run with an
error on page 62, which I was only recently
made aware of through being a member of
this group.

In fellowship - Dudley

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++++Message 4798. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: History of the term Conference
Approved
From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/14/2008 5:39:00 PM

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Hi Roger

I love getting into these kind of AA history
fragments.

There were only 37 US and Canadian Panel 1
Delegates (1/2 the planned number) at the
first General Service Conference in 1951, but
they passed quite a few advisory actions (16)
all of which were passed unanimously.

Among them was one that read "This Conference
feels that in future years AA textbook
literature should have Conference approval."

There was also a notation that "Prior to the
vote on this subject, it was pointed out that
adoption of the suggestion would not preclude
the continued issuance of various printed
documents by non-Foundation sources. No desire
to review, edit or censor non-Foundation
material is, implied. The objective is to
provide, in the future, a means of distin-
guishing Foundation literature from that
issued locally or by non-AA interests."

The 1951 Conference did not have a Conference
Committee on Literature. The four 1951
Conference Committees were: a "Committee
on New Trustees," an "Advisory Committee on
the Budget," a "Committee on Agenda," and a
"Committee on the Conference Report." The
Committee on Agenda presented the recommend-
ation on Conference-approved literature
(this is parenthetically noted in publication
M-39 which records all the advisory actions
that were passed by the Conferences).

Based on the 1951 Conference recommendation,
a Trustee's (or Foundation's) Committee on
Literature was formed to make a report to
the 1952 Conference recommending literature
that should be retained and future literature
items that would be needed. Bill W also
reported on the literature projects he was
engaged in.

In 1952, Panel 2 (consisting of 38 additional
delegates) joined with Panel 1 for the first
Conference of all Delegates attending. Seven
Conference Committees were formed (or renamed)
as "Nominating," "Finance," "Literature,"
"Policy," "Agenda," "Trustees," and "Conference
Report."

Among the 1952 Conference Literature
Committee's approved recommendations were:

1. That the report of the Foundation's
Committee on Literature, together with Bill's
report of his proposed program of activity
be approved.

2. That the following be incorporated on
all literature published by the Works
Publishing, Inc: "Issued by Works Publishing,
Inc., sole publishing agency of the Society
of Alcoholics Anonymous. Approved by the
General Service Conference of AA."

3. That this conference reaffirm the stand
taken by the 1951 Conference as follows:
"This conference has no desire to review,
edit, or censor non-Foundation material.
Our object is to provide, in the future,
a means of distinguishing Foundation
literature from that issued locally or
by non-AA interests."

By approving the Trustee's (or Foundation's)
Committee recommendations for literature
to be retained, the 1952 Conference retro-
actively approved the Big Book and several
existing pamphlets which included the long
form of the Traditions. Bill's approved
"program of activity" resulted in later
publication of six Conference-approved books:

**The 12&12 published in 1953

**The 3rd Legacy Manual published in 1955 -
renamed "The AA Service Manual" in 1969

**The 2nd edition Big Book published in 1955

**AA Comes of Age published in 1957

**The 12 Concepts for World Service published
in 1962

**The AA way of Life published in 1966 -
renamed As Bill Sees It in 1975

From perusing the final reports, it seems that
the terms "Conference-approved" or "Conference
approval" were well seeded (not necessarily
frequently stated) in the Conference vocabulary
in 1951 and 1952. While neither term appeared
in the 1953 Conference report, the 1954 report
was quite another matter and included the
term "Conference-approved" numerous times
throughout the report.

Cheers
Arthur

- - - -

Message 4793 from <chief_roger@yahoo.com>
(chief_roger at yahoo.com)

History of the term Conference Approved

In diner discussion recently following a
meeting the question was raised, when did we
begin to use the term conference approved AA
literature to separate it as different from
central office publications and other material
related to alcoholism or recovery?

I searched the many postings on conference
approved, have the Box 459 article explaining
what is meant and not meant and discovered
that the very first GSC Literature Committee
Advisory Action in 1951 was "In future years,
A.A. textbook literature should have Conference
approval (Agenda Committee). Prior to the
vote on this subject, it was pointed out that
the adoption of the suggestion should not
preclude the continued issuance of various
printed documents by non-Foundation sources.
No desire to review, edit or censor non-
Foundation material is implied. The objective
is to provide, in the future, a means of
distinguishing Foundation literature from
that issued locally or by non-A.A. interests."

This seems the beginning of AA practice in
separating literature.

Anyone know how the term "conference approved"
evolved into the AA lexicon?

Roger W.

Yahoo! Groups Links

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++++Message 4799. . . . . . . . . . . . Father Martin: heart attack
From: Mike Custer . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/16/2008 4:44:00 AM

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Last Thursday, Father Martin was hospitalized
after experiencing a heart attack. To date,
he is still hospitalized, however stable.

In keeping with our belief that prayer works,
join us in praying for his continued recovery.

Email us at fathermartin@fathermartin.com
your words of encouragement and well wishes.
Although Father Martin is unable to read
your message himself, Mae, Micki or another
family member will read your message to him.

Cards can be mailed to:

218 Fulford Ave
Bel Air, Maryland 21014

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++++Message 4800. . . . . . . . . . . . Extremely long early Big Book draft?
From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/15/2008 11:40:00 PM

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I have seen references in accounts of the
writing of the Big Book to an early draft that
yielded a book three to four times the length
of the one that was printed. The story goes
that the draft was put out for comment and a
number of persons said it was entirely too
long so it was cut back to its present form,
or close to it.

Manuscripts that are close to what was printed
survive. Indeed, they are available on eBay
for modest sums, usually.

My question to the group is how much of this
story about an extremely long early draft is
based on fact? If the story is generally
accepted as true, why did none of the original
much longer manuscripts survive? It seems
to me if enough copies were put out for
comment, some of them should have survived.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

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++++Message 4801. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: the phrase AA textbook
From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/15/2008 6:12:00 PM

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Message 4798 from "Arthur S"
<ArtSheehan@msn.com> (ArtSheehan at msn.com)
on "History of the term Conference Approved"

>I love getting into these kind of AA history
>fragments.
>
>There were only 37 US and Canadian Panel 1
>Delegates (1/2 the planned number) at the
>first General Service Conference in 1951, but
>they passed quite a few advisory actions (16)
>all of which were passed unanimously.
>
>Among them was one that read "This Conference
>feels that in future years AA textbook
>literature should have Conference approval."

- - - -

I love reading your contributions to this
forum, Arthur!

Did that panel define the term "A.A. textbook"?

I look in the two books that I consider to
be A.A. textbooks, the Big Book and the 12x12,
and the term textbook is used exactly once,
in the 12x12, and refers to school and
medical textbooks.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

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++++Message 4802. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Extremely long early Big Book
draft?
From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/16/2008 1:49:00 PM

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Hi Tom

I've found only two references to the reputed
drastic editing and paring of the original
Big Book manuscript. One is in "Bill W" by
Francis Hartigan (pg 126) the other in "Pass
It On" (pg 204). Both references are sustained
solely by anecdote and quite frankly I
question their accuracy (although, among a
number of fables in AA, it makes for enter-
taining legend).

"AA Comes of Age" is silent on the matter. If
such a severe paring did occur I find it hard
to believe that Bill W would have forgotten
to mention it (he colorfully discusses the
editing done to the personal stories and
member reaction to it).

The editing and paring was done by Tom Uzzell
in February/March 1939. 400 copies of the
manuscript had been distributed the prior
January (1939) for review and comment. The
version of the manuscript distributed, as you
note, clearly did not have a page count that
some attribute to it (i.e. 600 to 1200 pages).
Uzzell did his editing after those review
copies were returned.

The mark-up master manuscript, delivered to
Cornwall Press for creation of galley proofs,
was a copy of the manuscript distributed in
January 1939.

Check the links below for some fascinating
info and pictures:

http://aaholygrail.com/3.html
(very nice capsule history)

http://aaholygrail.com/1.html
(magnificent photos)

My guess is that claims of a 600-1200 page
manuscript serve to provide color but do not
accurately tell the Big Book story.

Cheers
Arthur

- - - -

From: John Lee <johnlawlee@yahoo.com>
(johnlawlee at yahoo.com)

The stories were edited severely, not the
first eleven chapters. The surplusage was
cut from the stories, not from the first
eleven chapters of Alcoholics Anonymous.
Very little was cut from the multilith
version, which didn't include the stories
[other than Bill's Story]. There were lots
of phraseology changes from the multilith
version, but very few deletions. The surgery
was performed by professional writer "friends"
of the First Hundred.

- - - -

Message 4800 from Tom Hickcox
<cometkazie1@cox.net> (cometkazie1 at cox.net)
asked the question:

I have seen references in accounts of the
writing of the Big Book to an early draft that
yielded a book three to four times the length
of the one that was printed. The story goes
that the draft was put out for comment and a
number of persons said it was entirely too
long so it was cut back to its present form,
or close to it.

Manuscripts that are close to what was printed
survive. Indeed, they are available on eBay
for modest sums, usually.

My question to the group is how much of this
story about an extremely long early draft is
based on fact? If the story is generally
accepted as true, why did none of the original
much longer manuscripts survive? It seems
to me if enough copies were put out for
comment, some of them should have survived.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

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++++Message 4803. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W''s travels from Brooklyn
to Newark
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/17/2008 3:52:00 PM

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From: Jared Lobdell <jlobdell54@hotmail.com>
about Bill W's travels from Brooklyn to Newark,

A response to: "johnlawlee"
<johnlawlee@yahoo.com> (johnlawlee at yahoo.com)

- - - -

JOHN:

There were no PATH trains from New Jersey
to the World Trade Center at that time.

- - - -

JARED:

It's true the lines were not called PATH and
the WTC didn't exist in the 1930s, but the
H&M (now PATH) lines between Hudson Terminal
(the WTC location) and Newark were in fact
opened in 1911 and were certainly in operation
in the 1930s.

- - - -

JOHN:

While it is physically possible to travel by
subways from Brooklyn to Newark, I can't see
Bill Wilson making that daily commute. Bill
was enthralled with Manhattan, and his
enthusiasm for Honor Dealers car wax was
tepid at best. Hank, Bill and Ruth were
crowded into a hole-in-the-wall office on
William Street, Newark after being evicted
from a larger suite in the same building.

The better view is that Bill bounced into
the Newark office once or twice a week to
give dictation to Ruth on Honor Dealers or
AA issues. Mitchell K's book, How It
Worked, indicates that "Bill was met at the
train station in New York by Hank P...."
upon returning from Akron with approval for
the book project and chain of hospitals
[p.90]. That would have been Penn Station in
Manhattan.

Susan Cheever thinks it's possible to take
a train from Grand Central to Akron, but
everyone else would have departed from Penn
Station, the magnificent work of McKim Mead
[see Cheever at p.131].

- - - -

JARED:

Not only physically possible (if we count
the H&M "tubes" as a "subway" -- though in
fact to Newark they used the Pennsy track past
Manhattan Transfer), but in fact the most
convenient way from BH to Newark by public
transportation, tho' I agree Bill would have
preferred to be driven, and that -- tho'
a "commute" -- it certainly wasn't something
Bill did every day.

I still can't agree with the implication of
your original statement that "there were no
PATH trains from New Jersey to the World Trade
Center at that time" -- tho' as I noted it's
technically true since it wasn't called PATH
and there was no WTC complex.

On your other point, evidence suggests to me
that the principal NY-Akron service was indeed
to and from Grand Central on the NYCentral,
not Penn Station on the Pennsy.

The Broadway Ltd (the chief Pennsy NY-Chicago
train) had as its stops (in the 1930s)
New York Penn Station, Newark Penn Station,
North Philadelphia, Paoli, Harrisburg,
Baker Street Station (Fort Wayne), Englewood
Union Station, Chicago Union Station (it hit
Cleveland in the very early hours of the
morning).

There were Cleveland (and Pittsburgh) stops
on trains running eastward to NY (Penn Station),
on the old Cleveland & Pittsburgh line, but
the Akron Pennsy station was part of the
Cleveland, Akron & Columbus (N/S) route and
not on the main C&P, so far as I know.

It's true that from 1923 to 1926 the B&O
operated the Capitol Limited (through Akron)
into Penn Station, but after 1926 into the
Jersey Central terminal at Jersey City.

So I can't say I agree that "everyone else"
would have gone from NY Penn Station to Akron
(unless I've overlooked a RR that served
Akron and came into Penn Station, which
is possible).

Do we know that Hank in fact usually drove
into NYC? -- he could easily have taken
the DL&W into Hoboken and the "tubes" over.

-- Jared

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++++Message 4804. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: the phrase AA textbook
From: Patricia . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/16/2008 10:15:00 AM

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Comments from Patricia, Jenny A., and Arthur S.

What did they mean by the phrase "AA textbook
literature" in the conference advisory action
passed in 1951?

- - - -

Responding to message 4798 from "Arthur S"
<ArtSheehan@msn.com> (ArtSheehan at msn.com)

... the first General Service Conference in
1951 ... passed quite a few advisory actions
(16) all of which were passed unanimously.
Among them was one that read "This Confer-
ence feels that in future years AA textbook
literature should have Conference approval."

- - - -

From: Patricia <pdixonrae@yahoo.com>
(pdixonrae at yahoo.com)

On the dust cover of my second, third and
fourth edition it says this book is the
basic text for Alcoholics Anonymous.

Patricia

- - - -

From: jenny andrews <jennylaurie1@hotmail.com>
(jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com)

Bill W describes 12 Steps and 12 Traditions
as "our textbook". (Alcoholics Anonymous Comes
of Age, Appendix B: Why Alcoholics Anonymous
is Anonymous).

The dust cover of the fourth edition of the
Big Book says it is "the basic text for
Alcoholics Anonymous."

Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary defines
a text as, first, "the original written or
printed words and form of a literary work."
For textbook it says "a book containing a
presentation of the principles of a subject."

- - - -

From: "Arthur S" <ArtSheehan@msn.com>

Hey Tom

"AA textbook" "basic text" and "text" are
terms that seemed to be well-seeded. My sense
is that the terms were initially used
generically early in AA history and over time
came to signify the Big Book pages numbered
1 thru 164 (previously 1 thru 174 in the
1st edition).

In AA Comes of Age" (pg 219) Bill W describes
the 12&12: "One more noteworthy event marked
this period of quiet: the publication of
A.A.'s Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions in
1953. This small volume is strictly a textbook
which explains A.A.'s twenty-four basic
principles and their application, in detail
and with great care."

On page 154, Bill refers to the Big Book:
"Suppose our embryo book were someday to
become the chief text for our fellowship."

Further Big Book references:

On page 162: Akronites like Paul and Dick S.
liked the new steps very much. As the remainder
of the book text developed, based on the
Twelve Steps, they continued to report their
approval.

On page 164: "We had not gone much farther
with the text of the book when it was evident
that something more was needed. There would
have to be a story or case history section."

[... also ...]

"It was felt also that the story section
could identify us with the distant reader in
a way that the text itself might not.

[... also ...]

"The cries of the anguished edited tale-
tellers finally subsided and the story
section of the book was complete in the
latter part of January, 1939. So at last
was the text."

On page 165: "Had we not better make a prepub-
lication copy of the text and some of the
stories and try the book out on our own
membership and on every kind and class of
person that has anything to do with drunks?"

On page 167: "One of them came from Dr. Howard,
a well-known psychiatrist of Montclair, New
Jersey. He pointed out that the text of our
book was too full of the words "you" and "must."

[... also ...]

"To make this shift throughout the text of
the book would be a big job."

On pages 200-201: At Oslo, we hope our Big
Book will soon be published in Norwegian.
Because of the language similarity, the
Danes and the Swedes will also be able to
read our basic text when it appears in Norwegian.

On page 220: "Everyone here at St. Louis knows
that we have just published the second edition
of the book Alcoholics Anonymous. Many of you
have it in your hands already. Today as we
pass A.A.'s twentieth milestone, it is quite
fitting that this long-pondered edition is now
in readiness for the future. The scope and
power of its case history section has been
increased, but of course the old familiar
text of the book stands unchanged."


On pages 315-316: "The first half of the book
is a text aimed to show an alcoholic the
attitude he ought to take and precisely the
steps he may follow to effect his own
recovery."

Cheers
Arthur

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++++Message 4805. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr Bob''s obsession
From: tsirish1 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/18/2008 12:22:00 PM

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I have heard for years in meetings the claim
that Dr. Bob never got over his mental
obsession to drink until the day he died.

If that is true, where is that statement
written?

Thanks,
BB Tim

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++++Message 4806. . . . . . . . . . . . Confusion on H. F. Heard
From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/21/2008 10:41:00 AM

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I have recently seen on a couple of AA-related
history sites a statement that H. F. Heard was
a pen-name for Aldous Huxley.

In fact H. F. Heard was Henry FitzGerald Heard
(1889-1971) who also wrote as Gerald Heard.

He was a friend of Aldous Huxley (and of Bill
Wilson) but he certainly was not Aldous
Huxley.

I thought perhaps this ought to be noted on
the HistoryLovers website.

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++++Message 4807. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: the phrase AA textbook
(correction)
From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/20/2008 7:41:00 PM

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Hi

Laurie A kindly pointed out to me that I
goofed on an AA Comes of Age page reference.

The ending citation referring to pages 315-316
are incorrect and should read 307-308.

Thanks Laurie!

Cheers
Arthur

-----Original Message-----
From: Arthur S [mailto:artsheehan@msn.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 8:23 PM
To: 'AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: the phrase AA textbook

Hey Tom

"AA textbook" "basic text" and "text" are terms that seemed to be
well-seeded. My sense is that the terms were initially used generically
early in AA history and over time came to signify the Big Book pages
numbered 1 thru 164 (previously 1 thru 174 in the 1st ed).

In AA Comes of Age" (pg 219) Bill W describes the 12&12: "One more
noteworthy event marked this period of quiet: the publication of A.A.'s
Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions in 1953. This small volume is strictly a
textbook which explains A.A.'s twenty-four basic principles and their
application, in detail and with great care."

On page 154, Bill refers to the Big Book: "Suppose our embryo book were
someday to become the chief text for our fellowship."

Further Big Book references:

On page 162: Akronites like Paul and Dick S. liked the new steps very much.
As the remainder of the book text developed, based on the Twelve Steps, they
continued to report their approval.

On page 164: "We had not gone much farther with the text of the book when it
was evident that something more was needed. There would have to be a story
or case history section." [... also ...] "It was felt also that the story
section could identify us with the distant reader in a way that the text
itself might not. [... also ...] "The cries of the anguished edited
taletellers finally subsided and the story section of the book was complete
in the latter part of January, 1939. So at last was the text."

On page 165: "Had we not better make a prepublication copy of the text and
some of the stories and try the book out on our own membership and on every
kind and class of person that has anything to do with drunks?"

On page 167: "One of them came from Dr. Howard, a well-known psychiatrist of
Montclair, New Jersey. He pointed out that the text of our book was too full
of the words "you" and "must." [... also ...] "To make this shift throughout
the text of the book would be a big job."

On pages 200-201: At Oslo, we hope our Big Book will soon be published in
Norwegian. Because of the language similarity, the Danes and the Swedes will
also be able to read our basic text when it appears in Norwegian.

On page 220: "Everyone here at St. Louis knows that we have just published
the second edition of the book Alcoholics Anonymous. Many of you have it in
your hands already. Today as we pass A.A.'s twentieth milestone, it is quite
fitting that this long-pondered edition is now in readiness for the future.
The scope and power of its case history section has been increased, but of
course the old familiar text of the book stands unchanged."

On pages 315-316: "The first half of the book is a text aimed to show an
alcoholic the attitude he ought to take and precisely the steps he may
follow to effect his, own recovery."

Cheers
Arthur

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tom Hickcox
Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 5:12 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: the phrase AA textbook

Message 4798 from "Arthur S"
<ArtSheehan@msn.com> (ArtSheehan at msn.com)
on "History of the term Conference Approved"

>I love getting into these kind of AA history
>fragments.
>
>There were only 37 US and Canadian Panel 1
>Delegates (1/2 the planned number) at the
>first General Service Conference in 1951, but
>they passed quite a few advisory actions (16)
>all of which were passed unanimously.
>
>Among them was one that read "This Conference
>feels that in future years AA textbook
>literature should have Conference approval."

- - - -

I love reading your contributions to this
forum, Arthur!

Did that panel define the term "A.A. textbook"?

I look in the two books that I consider to
be A.A. textbooks, the Big Book and the 12x12,
and the term textbook is used exactly once,
in the 12x12, and refers to school and
medical textbooks.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

Yahoo! Groups Links

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++++Message 4808. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Dr Bob''s obsession
From: Jay Lawyer . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/19/2008 6:14:00 AM

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BB Tom,

Open your BB. In Doctor Bob's Nightmare (pg
181, 3rd edition), he explains, "Unlike most
of our crowd, I did not get over my craving
for liquor much during the first two and
one-half years of abstinence. It was almost
always with me"

Here is your answer straight from the
Doc's mouth: for "the first 2-1/2 years,"
NOT "until the day he died."

So it would seem that this statement that you
have heard at meetings is untrue.

Jay

- - - -

Message #4805 from <tsirish1@yahoo.com>
(tsirish1 at yahoo.com)

I have heard for years in meetings the claim
that Dr. Bob never got over his mental
obsession to drink until the day he died.

If that is true, where is that statement
written?

Thanks,
BB Tim

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++++Message 4809. . . . . . . . . . . . Employees paying back for alcoholism
treatment
From: flat412acrehouse . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/19/2008 10:06:00 AM

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Big Book pages 142-143

Dear Glenn

I hope that you are keeping well.

With regards to the above pages from To
Employers it states, "For most alcoholics who
are drinking,or who are just getting over a
spree, a certain amount of physical treatment
is desirable, even imperative...If you propose
such a procedure to him, it may be necessary
to advance the cost of treatment, but we
believe it should be made plain to him that
any expense will later be deducted from
his pay."

One of our group wished to know where the
idea that your employee would pay back for
any of his medical treatment came from.

Thanking you in anticipation
Gentle blessings
Leah

- - - -

From the moderator:

I'm going to ask some of our group who
know more about the history of employee
medical and health insurance programs
in the United States if they can tell us
more about what it was like in 1939,
when the Big Book was published.

My father told me that the railroads had
railroad doctors back then, who would saw
off your leg if you were a railroad worker
who got your leg crushed between two
couplers. But do any of the people in
our group know if even that was common?

There were a few places in the U.S. by
1939 where employees could pay for medical
or hospitalization insurance, but this was
not widespread or common, to the best of
my knowledge.

And the problem with alcoholism was that
this was regarded by most people as a
moral failing, which should simply be
treated punitively. Just fire him! Or
throw him in jail. That was what most
people would have said.

So even the very few people who had some
kind of medical or hospitalization insurance
in 1939 would not have been able to use it
for alcohol-related problems.

The disease concept of alcoholism was
introduced in an attempt to get medical
treatment provided for alcoholics when
they needed it (for detoxing for example).

But in the U.S. in 1939, the idea that an
employer might advance money to an employee
to go into a hospital to detox (even if the
employee paid the money back afterwards)
was a quite radical new idea. To the best
of my knowledge anyway.

Who in our group knows more about employee
health benefits (if any) and how they were
handled in the U.S. back in the 1930's?

Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana)

- - - -

P.S. And for the sake of the younger folks
in the U.K. and places like that, we need
to remember that even in the U.K., the
National Health Service did not come along
until 1948.

See the Wikipedia article on "Health care"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care

"In most developed countries and many
developing countries health care is provided
to everyone regardless of their ability to
pay. The National Health Service in the United
Kingdom was the world's first universal
health care system provided by government.
It was established in 1948 by Clement Atlee's
Labour government. Alternatively, compulsory
government funded health insurance with
nominal fees can be provided, as with Italy,
which, according to the World Health Organisation,
has the second-best health system in the world.
Other examples are Medicare in Australia,
established in the 1970s by the Labor government,
and by the same name Medicare was established
in Canada between 1966 and 1984. Universal
health care contrasts to the systems like health
care in the United States or South Africa."

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++++Message 4810. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: the phrase AA textbook
From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/18/2008 7:15:00 PM

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Comments from Mitchell K. and Bill Lash:

From: "Mitchell K."
<mitchell_k_archivist@yahoo.com>
(mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com)

While the textbook defining continues, the
book Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions is
and has been identified as an interpretive
commentary written by a co-founder. If the
12&12 is a textbook by virtue of giving
information, The Little Red Book is also a
textbook of equal value and validity.

The description given by Alcoholics Anonymous
World Services, Inc. in the Conference-Approved
book Alcoholics Anonymous is, once again --
an interpretive commentary written by a
co-founder.

The 12&12 is not THE program. It is a
commentary ON the program. If the fact that
Bill and Tom Powers and probably Dr. Harry T.
wrote the book gives it validity, the fact
that Dr. Bob had a great deal of input into
the writing of The Little Red Book gives it
equal validity.

- - - -

From: Bill Lash <barefootbill@optonline.net>
(barefootbill at optonline.net)

And please don't miss that the foreword in the
12 & 12 (page 17) says, "The book 'Alcoholics
Anonymous' became the basic text of the
Fellowship, and it still is."

Just Love,

Barefoot Bill

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++++Message 4811. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Employees paying back for
alcoholism treatment
From: secondles . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/21/2008 3:07:00 PM

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Hi Folks !

I am one of those "old" ones who lived (as a
child) in the early 1930s living in a small
town in Vermont. My father worked in several
small but national branches of industry.

"Benefits" was not a term known then. Pay was
handled in cash in a small envelope. There
was nothing held out for taxes and there
never was an accounting (by the employer)
for wages paid annually.

I can only assume that the instance cited in
the Big Book might occur on a very individual
basis, and perhaps only as a speculation rather
than a common practice. The period of the
Great Depression (1930s) was a very unstable
time, and work, any work, was usually hard to
come by.

As Glenn remarks, public attitude was callous
or harsh regarding alcoholics, let alone
thinking of offering "help" or giving
"benefits."

Regards to all

Les

- - - -

"flat412acrehouse" <leah@...> wrote:
>
> Big Book pages 142-143
>
> Dear Glenn
>
> I hope that you are keeping well.
>
> With regards to the above pages from To
> Employers it states, "For most alcoholics who
> are drinking,or who are just getting over a
> spree, a certain amount of physical treatment
> is desirable, even imperative...If you propose
> such a procedure to him, it may be necessary
> to advance the cost of treatment, but we
> believe it should be made plain to him that
> any expense will later be deducted from
> his pay."
>
> One of our group wished to know where the
> idea that your employee would pay back for
> any of his medical treatment came from.
>
> Thanking you in anticipation
> Gentle blessings
> Leah

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++++Message 4812. . . . . . . . . . . . Photos of Victor Kitchen
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/24/2008 2:44:00 PM

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Photos of Victor C. Kitchen (from his family
and other sources) have now been collected at:

http://hindsfoot.org/kchange3.html

http://hindsfoot.org/kchange1.html

Vic was a member of the Oxford Group in New
York City and a friend of Bill Wilson's when
Bill joined the Oxford Group. Dr. Bob may
have met him too, when Vic visited Ohio as
part of an Oxford Group team.

Vic wrote an important Oxford Group work,
"I Was a Pagan."

Vic (a New York advertising executive) eventu-
ally became a full time worker for all the
rest of his life for the Oxford Group and its
successor Moral Re-Armament.

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++++Message 4813. . . . . . . . . . . . First woman in AA?
From: David LeBlanc . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/22/2008 11:53:00 PM

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A question came up in my group. Who was the
first woman to join AA and when did she join?

Can anyone help?

- - - -

From the moderator: if you go to our Message
Board at

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/messages

And do a search for "first woman" in quotation
marks, you will see that there is a lot of
debate about who holds this honor. Part of
this is a matter of definition. Do you just
want to know the first woman who tried the
program, even if she only stayed sober for
two or three weeks, and then went back out and
never came back?

Message 3588 from Tom Hickcox
<cometkazie1@cox.net> (cometkazie1 at cox.net)
says (accurately I believe) that if we want
to ask who was the first woman who joined AA
and gained long term sobriety, that the top
two candidates are:

Sylvia Kauffmann, whose story in the Big
Book was the "Keys to the Kingdom"

Marty Mann, whose story in the Big Book
was "Women Suffer Too"

Nancy Olson, the founder of the
AAHistoryLovers, put together (with the
help of other members of this group)
a set of short biographies of the people
whose stories got in the Big Book. You
can read Nancy's account of both Sylvia's
life and Marty's life (with photographs of
both women) in that set of biographies.

This appears in more than one place online,
but one place is Al W.'s West Baltimore AA
website (Al and Nancy were very good friends,
and Al was one of her greatest personal
supporters):

http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/Authors.htm

If you want a fuller account of Mrs. Marty
Mann's life, the full biography is Sally
Brown and David R. Brown, "A Biography of
Mrs. Marty Mann: The First Lady of Alco-
holics Anonymous (Center City, Minnesota:
Hazelden, 2001).

There is also interesting material about
Marty Mann in passing in both of these books:

http://hindsfoot.org/kNO1.html

http://hindsfoot.org/kBS1.html

Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana)

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++++Message 4814. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: the phrase AA textbook
From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/21/2008 5:11:00 PM

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>From: Bill Lash <barefootbill@optonline.net>
>(barefootbill at optonline.net)
>
>And please don't miss that the foreword in the
>12 & 12 (page 17) says, "The book 'Alcoholics
>Anonymous' became the basic text of the
>Fellowship, and it still is."

- - - -

That part of the foreword has stuck out to me
for some time.

The foreword itself has a lot of useful
information. Do we know who wrote it?

The language says that the Big Book was not
written as "the basic text of the Fellowship"
but the book became that at some point down
the road. My question would be, what point
was that and what are the references for
that particular date?

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

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++++Message 4815. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: the phrase AA textbook
(correction)
From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/22/2008 6:44:00 AM

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We should note that the quotation from pp
307-8 in Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age
is from an appendix - a paper titled "A new
approach to psychotherapy in chonic alcoholism"
by William Silkworth, a non-AA member comment-
ing about the Big Book.

Laurie A.

- - - -

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.comFrom: ArtSheehan@msn.comDate: Sun, 20 Jan
2008 18:41:02 -0600Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: the phrase AA textbook
(correction)

Hi Laurie A kindly pointed out to me that I goofed on an AA Comes of Age
page
reference.The ending citation referring to pages 315-316 are incorrect and
should read 307-308.Thanks Laurie!CheersArthur-----Original
Message-----From:
Arthur S [mailto:artsheehan@msn.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 8:23
PMTo: 'AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com'Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Re:
the
phrase AA textbookHey Tom"AA textbook" "basic text" and "text" are terms
that
seemed to bewell-seeded. My sense is that the terms were initially used
genericallyearly in AA history and over time came to signify the Big Book
pagesnumbered 1 thru 164 (previously 1 thru 174 in the 1st ed).In AA Comes
of
Age" (pg 219) Bill W describes the 12&12: "One morenoteworthy event marked
this
period of quiet: the publication of A.A.'sTwelve Steps and Twelve Traditions
in
1953. This small volume is strictly atextbook which explains A.A.'s
twenty-four
basic principles and theirapplication, in detail and with great care."On
page
154, Bill refers to the Big Book: "Suppose our embryo book weresomeday to
become
the chief text for our fellowship."Further Big Book references:On page 162:
Akronites like Paul and Dick S. liked the new steps very much.As the
remainder
of the book text developed, based on the Twelve Steps, theycontinued to
report
their approval.On page 164: "We had not gone much farther with the text of
the
book when itwas evident that something more was needed. There would have to
be a
storyor case history section." [... also ...] "It was felt also that the
storysection could identify us with the distant reader in a way that the
textitself might not. [... also ...] "The cries of the anguished
editedtaletellers finally subsided and the story section of the book was
completein the latter part of January, 1939. So at last was the text."On
page
165: "Had we not better make a prepublication copy of the text andsome of
the
stories and try the book out on our own membership and on everykind and
class of
person that has anything to do with drunks?"On page 167: "One of them came
from
Dr. Howard, a well-known psychiatrist ofMontclair, New Jersey. He pointed
out
that the text of our book was too fullof the words "you" and "must." [...
also
...] "To make this shift throughoutthe text of the book would be a big
job."On
pages 200-201: At Oslo, we hope our Big Book will soon be published
inNorwegian.
Because of the language similarity, the Danes and the Swedes willalso be
able to
read our basic text when it appears in Norwegian.On page 220: "Everyone here
at
St. Louis knows that we have just publishedthe second edition of the book
Alcoholics Anonymous. Many of you have it inyour hands already. Today as we
pass
A.A.'s twentieth milestone, it is quitefitting that this long-pondered
edition
is now in readiness for the future.The scope and power of its case history
section has been increased, but ofcourse the old familiar text of the book
stands unchanged."On pages 315-316: "The first half of the book is a text
aimed
to show analcoholic the attitude he ought to take and precisely the steps he
mayfollow to effect his, own recovery."CheersArthur-----Original
Message-----From:
AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Tom HickcoxSent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 5:12 PMTo:
AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.comSubject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: the phrase AA
textbookMessage 4798 from "Arthur S" <ArtSheehan@msn.com> (ArtSheehan at
msn.com) on "History of the term Conference Approved">I love getting into
these
kind of AA history>fragments.>>There were only 37 US and Canadian Panel
1>Delegates (1/2 the planned number) at the>first General Service Conference
in
1951, but>they passed quite a few advisory actions (16)>all of which were
passed
unanimously.>>Among them was one that read "This Conference>feels that in
future
years AA textbook>literature should have Conference approval."- - - -I love
reading your contributions to this forum, Arthur!Did that panel define the
term
"A.A. textbook"?I look in the two books that I consider to be A.A.
textbooks,
the Big Book and the 12x12, and the term textbook is used exactly once, in
the
12x12, and refers to school and medical textbooks.Tommy H in Baton
RougeYahoo!
Groups Links

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++++Message 4816. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: the phrase AA textbook
From: dino . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/22/2008 11:09:00 AM

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Ditto to everything said by Mitch and Bill.
Nowhere in the Big Book does it say that
it's a text book. It says: "Because this book
has become the Basic text for our society..."

I think the key word here is basic (i.e. the
number 1, fundamental, main book used to
convey the story of how the first 40 members
recovered from alcoholism.)

In the 12&12 pg. 17 Bill states "When pub-
lished in 1939 the book Alcoholics Anonymous
became the basic text of our society and
still is the purpose of this present volume
(the 12&12) is to broaden and deepen our
understanding of the steps as first written
in the earlier work.

I would imagine(who knows?) that on pg. 219
of AACOA that Bill is intending the 12/12 to
instruct the (oftimes reluctant)fellowship at
large about the spiritual and practical
dimensions of the traditions and how they
complement and reinforce one another.

The Conference itself has never to my knowledge
refered to the 12/12 as a textbook.

THANKS

- - - -

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Mitchell K."
<mitchell_k_archivist@...> wrote:
>
> Comments from Mitchell K. and Bill Lash:
>
> From: "Mitchell K."
> <mitchell_k_archivist@...>
> (mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com)
>
> While the textbook defining continues, the
> book Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions is
> and has been identified as an interpretive
> commentary written by a co-founder. If the
> 12&12 is a textbook by virtue of giving
> information, The Little Red Book is also a
> textbook of equal value and validity.
>
> The description given by Alcoholics Anonymous
> World Services, Inc. in the Conference-Approved
> book Alcoholics Anonymous is, once again --
> an interpretive commentary written by a
> co-founder.
>
> The 12&12 is not THE program. It is a
> commentary ON the program. If the fact that
> Bill and Tom Powers and probably Dr. Harry T.
> wrote the book gives it validity, the fact
> that Dr. Bob had a great deal of input into
> the writing of The Little Red Book gives it
> equal validity.
>
> - - - -
>
> From: Bill Lash <barefootbill@...>
> (barefootbill at optonline.net)
>
> And please don't miss that the foreword in the
> 12 & 12 (page 17) says, "The book 'Alcoholics
> Anonymous' became the basic text of the
> Fellowship, and it still is."
>
> Just Love,
>
> Barefoot Bill

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++++Message 4817. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: the phrase AA textbook
From: Dean at ComPlanners . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/22/2008 11:07:00 AM

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AAHistoryLovers,

In case it has been missed ...

The dust jacket of the Fourth Edition has
this statement: "This is the Fourth Edition
of the Big Book, the Basic Text for Alcoholics
Anonymous."

Note that the statement includes the entire
book. A Bill W. quote (from a 1953 letter)
appears on the inside flap: "The story
section of the Big Book is far more important
than most of us think. It is our principle
means of identifying with the reader outside
A.A.; it is the written equivalent of hearing
speakers at an A.A. meeting; it is our show
window of results."

Dean

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++++Message 4818. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Re: the phrase AA textbook
From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/25/2008 1:22:00 PM

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There is a great deal of "AA theater" in the
way some choose to officiously portray the
Big Book and ordain it to a hyper-hallowed
station on the altar of sobriety.

I love the Big Book, study it, and use it for
12th Step work. I also use the 12&12 and
consider it a necessary companion to the Big
Book given the minimal amount of text in the
Big Book on several of the 12 Steps. The 12
Steps and their explanation occurred late in
the production of the Big Book and it shows.
I believe the 12&12 was intended to compensate
for this and dislike seeing the 12&12 directly
or indirectly trivialized in comparison to
the Big Book.

It's been my understanding (and practice) to
refer to a particular portion of the Big Book
as the "basic text" of the book. That portion
is essentially defined by what is included in
the abridged edition. It is also the portion
of the Big Book that several Conferences
repeatedly put off-limits for any changes
during the development of the 4th edition. This
does not mean that the terms "basic text" and
"textbook" cannot be used to generically
describe other literature works. In fact,
historically, both terms have been used by
Bill W and the Conference to do just that.

In his January 1961 letter to Dr Jung, Bill W
wrote "There immediately came to me an
illumination of enormous impact and dimension,
something which I have since tried to describe
in the book, 'Alcoholics Anonymous,' and also
in 'AA Comes of Age,' basic texts which I am
sending to you."

The 1953 final Conference report, under
Literature Committee recommendations, noted
"Ask the Delegates to weigh this question
for submission to the 1954 Conference: Does
the Conference feel it should depart from
its purely textbook program by printing
non-textbook literature such as the 24 Hour
Book of Meditation?" The 12&12 was introduced
at the 1953 Conference so it seems that it
was considered a part of the "purely textbook
program" as were the rest of Bill's literature
projects approved by the 1952 General Service
Conference.

My impression is that the terms "text book"
and/or "basic text" generically applied to
any book that explained AA's principles (the
Steps, Traditions and later the Concepts).
Terminology can either illuminate or obfuscate.
Please see the embedded replies below and
make your own judgment:

-------------------------

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: the phrase
AA textbook -- Comments from Mitchell K. and
Bill Lash:

From: "Mitchell K."

Comment 1: While the textbook defining
continues, the book Twelve Steps and Twelve
Traditions is and has been identified as an
interpretive commentary written by a
co-founder. If the 12&12 is a textbook by
virtue of giving information, The Little
Red Book is also a textbook of equal value
and validity.

Reply 1:

Identified by whom and when and by what
authority? In AA Comes of Age" (pg 219) Bill W
describes the 12&12 with the statement: "One
more noteworthy event marked this period of
quiet: the publication of AA's Twelve Steps and
Twelve Traditions in 1953. This small volume
is strictly a textbook which explains AA's
twenty-four basic principles and their
application, in detail and with great care."
The 1952 final Conference report noted that
Bill W identified his plans for what became
the Steps portion of the 12&12 with a
description of it being "A series of orderly,
point-by-point essays on the Twelve Steps."
The 1952 final Conference report further noted
that "Bill exhibited to the Conference a sample
copy of 'Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions,'
his first full-length commentary on AA since
the writing of The Big Book." The statement
seems to also describe the Big Book as a
"full-length commentary" (which takes nothing
at all away from the Big Book).

Comment 2: The description given by Alcoholics
Anonymous World Services, Inc. in the
Conference-Approved book Alcoholics Anonymous
is, once again -- an interpretive commentary
written by a co-founder.

Reply 2:

All editions of the Big Book are silent on the
12&12. Can a specific source reference be
provided so that what is cited can be verified?
The 2007 Conference-Approved Literature Catalog
describes the 12&12 with the statement: "Bill
W's 24 essays on the Steps and the Traditions
discuss the principles of individual recovery
and group unity." The AA.org web site
description is "Twelve Steps and Twelve
Traditions (192 pages) Published in 1953,
this book contains a detailed interpretation
of principles of personal recovery and group
survival by Bill W, co-founder of the Fellow-
ship." It doesn't seem appropriate to me to
trivialize the 12&12 with the rubric
"interpretive commentary by a co-founder."
The 12&12 was a major and important work and
a very deliberate follow-on work to the Big
Book to explain the 12 Steps (and Traditions)
in detail.

Comment 3: The 12&12 is not THE program. It
is a commentary ON the program. If the fact
that Bill and Tom Powers and probably Dr.
Harry T. wrote the book gives it validity,
the fact that Dr. Bob had a great deal of
input into the writing of The Little Red Book
gives it equal validity.

Reply 3:

The attempted semantic distinctions of
uppercase "THE" and "ON" are fatuous and
absurd. The 12 Steps are the principles of
AA's program of recovery. Both the Big Book
and 12&12 provide "basic text" (i.e. "the
main body of a book") to explain those
principles. Bill W is credited as the primary
author of both works (and as a rule received
assistance from others in all his writing
projects). The 12&12 does a far better job
explaining Steps 6, 7 and 8 with its 20 pages
(pgs 63-82) of "interpretive commentary by
a co-founder" than do the 3 paragraphs of
"THE" program in the Big Book (pg 76).

It seems fairly obvious, and common sense,
that the 12&12 and Big Book are companion works
in an evolutionary sequence of accumulated
experience. When the Big Book was published
in 1939 Bill W was 4 years sober, there were 2
groups and around 100 members. When the 12&12
was published in 1953 Bill was 19 years sober,
there were an estimated 6,000 groups and
128,000 members. It suggests to me that a lot
more experience went into writing the 12&12
than the Big Book (I hope that doesn't consti-
tute AA heresy or apostasy).

From: Bill Lash <barefootbill@optonline.net>

Comment: And please don't miss that the
foreword in the 12 & 12 (page 17) says, "The
book 'Alcoholics Anonymous' became the basic
text of the Fellowship, and it still is."

Reply:

Please also don't miss the sentence that
immediately follows the one cited that states
"This present volume (i.e. the 12&12) proposes
to broaden and deepen the understanding of the
Twelve Steps as first written in the earlier
work." (i.e. the Big Book)

Also it seems relevant to cite the last para-
graph of the 12&12 Foreword (pg 18) which
states "It is hoped that this volume will
afford all who read it a close-up view of the
principle that made Alcoholics Anonymous what
it is."

Cheers

Arthur

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++++Message 4819. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr. Bob''s Continuing Temptation
From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/25/2008 12:28:00 PM

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From Dr. Bob's Last Major Talk, December 1948:

"The fact that my sobriety has been maintained
continuously for 13½ years doesn't allow me to
think that I am necessarily any further away
from my next drink than any of you people. I'm
still very human, and I still think a double
Scotch would taste awfully good. If it wouldn't
produce disastrous results, I might try it.
I don't know. I have no reason to think that
it would taste any different - but I have no
legitimate reason to believe that the results
would be any different, either."

This does suggest that he continued to think
about drinking.

- - - -

From: "johnlawlee" <johnlawlee@yahoo.com>
(johnlawlee at yahoo.com)

Many of the people posting messages on this
topic are confusing the term "obsession" with
a "craving" or urge to drink. An obsession is
an idea that blocks all other ideas. If an
alcoholic gets an obsession to drink, he always
drinks.

Doctor Bob's last obsession to drink was in
June of 1935. He reported thoughts of drinking
in his 1939 First Edition story, but never
had an obsession to drink after June of 1935.

The difference between a craving and an
obsession is explained on pages xxviii, xxix
and xxx of The Doctor's Opinion in the Big
Book.

John Lee
Pittsburgh

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++++Message 4820. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Employees paying back for
alcoholism treatment
From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/22/2008 7:50:00 AM

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In the early days in Cleveland, if one could
not afford treatment (which equated only to
detox in an "approved" hospital) there was
the AA Association. Members laid out the cost
of detox and the individual paid them back.
Usually, if a prospect was in danger of losing
their job or already had lost their job, the
local AA members visited the employer and due
to their overwhelming success and reputation,
the employer quite often allowed the alcoholic
employee to continue working after detox and
attending meetings. There was a connection
with the employer, the courts, the hospitals,
etc. and AA members so that wages could have
been garnished if the individual didn't pay
the cost back to the AAA so that others might
also benefit.

Records from Cleveland showed balance sheets
from the association showing who was in the
hospital, how much they owed, who paid back,
etc.

Not sure if this was what the book referred
to but I would think that the practice wasn't
unknown in other places.

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++++Message 4821. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: First woman in AA?
From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/25/2008 4:24:00 AM

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From Arthur S. and Bob S.

Florence Rankin (New York), Jane S. (Cleveland),
Sylvia Kauffmann (Chicago), Ethel Macy (Akron)

- - - -

David L. asked: A question came up in my group.
Who was the first woman to join AA and when did
she join?

- - - -

From: "Arthur S" <ArtSheehan@msn.com>
(ArtSheehan at msn.com)

The first woman member was Florence R
(from NY). Her 1st edition Big Book story is
"A Feminine Victory." She relocated to the
Washington DC/Baltimore area.

Sadly she died drunk in the early 1940s (a
possible suicide).

Fitz M identified her in the morgue.

Arthur

- - - -

From: "Robert Stonebraker"
<rstonebraker212@insightbb.com>
(rstonebraker212 at insightbb.com)

Who was first, Jane or Florence?

Both Florence Rankin (New York) and Jane S.
(Cleveland) came to AA in 1937, but I have
not been able to discover which was first
to join AA or, of course, the Oxford Group
as it was then.

This humorous story is from Pages 122 & 123
from Dr. Bob & The Good Oldtimers:

Word of Akron's "not-drinking-liquor club" had
already spread to nearby towns, such as Kent
and Canton, and it was probably early 1937
when a few prospects started drifting down
from Cleveland. In the beginning, it was in
twos and threes. (By 1939, there were two
carloads.)

Bob E. remembered that Jane S. was making the
35-mile trip to the meeting at T. Henry's in
1937, about the same time he started. Colorful
and vivacious, with a fine sense of humor,
Jane is said to be the first woman in the
area to have attained any length of sobriety -
meaning a few months.

Oldtimers long remembered her story of being
left unattended by her husband to supervise
the wallpapering of a room. Trouble was, she
and the paperhanger started drinking. Each
time he began to hang a roll of paper, one or
the other would walk into it. When her husband
came home that evening, both Jane and the
paperhanger had passed out, surrounded by
empty bottles (as her husband told her later)
and all bound up in shredded paper and waste.

- - - -

Sylvia Kauffmann got sober in September of
1939 in Chicago and, so far as I can find,
stayed sober till she died. At any rate,
she was credited having the longest
uninterrupted sobriety of any woman in AA.

I believe that Ethel Macy, who wrote "From
Farm To City," was the first lady to join AA
at Akron (May, 1941). She remained sober till
she died (April 1963).

Bob S.

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++++Message 4822. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: First woman in AA?
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/25/2008 4:31:00 PM

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Florence Rankin (New York), Jane S. (Cleveland),
Sylvia Kauffmann (Chicago), Ethel Macy (Akron),
Mary Campbell (from somewhere in the South),
Lil (in Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers pgs 97-98,
109, 241), and of course Marty Mann, are all
names of women which appear in accounts of the
early AA period.

- - - -

Message 3169 from "Mitchell K."
<mitchell_k_archivist@yahoo.com>
(mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com)
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/3169

The name Jane S. does not appear in any of
the early Cleveland archival materials or
dozens of meeting rosters or histories of all
the original groups compiled by Norm E., the
recording statistician from the Cleveland
Central Committee in the early 1940's.

- - - -

Message 4543 from "t"
<tcumming@nc.rr.com> (tcumming at nc.rr.com)
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/4543

"First 100" [list] has the name
Jane Sturden on it.

- - - -

Message 3132 from <ArtSheehan@msn.com>
(ArtSheehan at msn.com)
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/3132

The first woman to arrive on the scene in AA
(in 1935) was the legendary "Lil" of the
"Victor and Lil" duo in Akron, OH (re "Dr Bob
and the Good Oldtimers pgs 97-98, 109, 241).
"Lil" reputedly sobered up outside AA. However,
it is said she never got far enough along to
attend a meeting.

"Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers" provides
Jane S' relative dry date through old-timer
Bob E. On pg 101 it states "Bob E who came
into AA in February 1937" (then on pg 122)
"remembered that Jane S was making the
35-mile trip to the meeting at T Henry's in
1937, about the same time he started" [Jane's
trip was from Cleveland to Akron]. Pg 241
later indicates that Jane was the wife of
a "vice-president of a large steel company."

The key words in her relative dry date are
"about the same time" [relative to February
1937]. I can't find a hard written reference
to confirm it, but sources I trust for
credibility indicate that Jane S stayed sober
for only a few months.

"Pass It On" mentions Florence R. On pg 202 it
states "The name 'One Hundred Men' fell by the
wayside because of objections of Florence R,
at that time the only female member." It's odd
that Jane S' name isn't also mentioned as a
female member "at that time." Is it possible
that that she had already fallen off the wagon
and departed?

The edited story section of the Big Book was
completed "in the latter part of January 1939"
(re "AA Comes of Age" pg 164). The mark-up of
the manuscript was likely completed in the
latter part of March (the book was published
April 4, 1939).

Florence R, states in her story "... The
drinking ended the morning I got there ..."
["there" was Bill and Lois' home for the 2nd
time]. She then later states "That was more
than a year ago." In manuscript versions,
circulating around the internet, the sentence
read "That was several years ago" which is
quite obviously wrong. The key words in her
relative dry date are "more than a year ago"
[but from when?].

So how to do the reckoning to establish female
member primacy? It seems to be a contest
between the precision inherent in the relative
values denoted by "about" or "more than."

Did Jane S' dry date of "around February" fall
on February 1st or 28th (that's almost a
month's difference) or February 14 (to split
the difference)or could late January (31st)
or early March (1st)?

Is Florence R's dry date of "more than a year
ago" relative to late January 1939 (when the
edited stories were completed) or mid to late
March 1939 when the mark-up was completed? If
it is March 1939, then Jane S may have primacy
(and that is only a "may have"). If "more than"
is relative to January or February 1939 then
Florence R has primacy or perhaps it's a tie.
The problem is does "more than" mean a day, a
week or weeks, a month, 365 days + 1, 13 or
14 months or what?

So which is earlier? I'm sticking with Florence.
Why? Florence stayed dry for over a year. Jane S
lasted for a few months. If it's mainly about
when they showed up then legendary "Lil" beats
them both. If the elapsed time before they
returned to drinking doesn't factor in, then
by that logic, Ebby T is the first male member
of AA and should be a founder.

- - - -

Message 3132 from: "mertonmm3"
<mertonmm3@yahoo.com>
(mertonmm3 at yahoo.com)
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/3132

Women in the plural because, I believe in the NY/NJ/CT area (which
functioned as one during most of the time) they began with one woman
(Florence R. of Westfield N.J.), and around the time of the release of
the book Marty M., then a patient of Blythewood Sanitarium, became
number 2.

- - - -

Message 3112 from "Sally Brown"
<rev.sally@worldnet.att.net>
(rev.sally at worldnet.att.net)

Still another was Mary Campbell, from somewhere
in the South, I believe. Dave and I don't know
her sobriety date or when she arrived in AA,
but it was before April 1939 when Marty Mann
went from Blythewood to her first AA meeting,
held at the Wilsons' home in Brooklyn. Mary
actually visited Marty at Blythewood. She
relapsed in 1944, then returned to AA and
stayed sober until she died in the 1990s.

- - - -

Message 589 from t <tcumming@airmail.net>
Email address is now <tcumming@nc.rr.com>
(tcumming at nc.rr.com)
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/589

People In AA History - Part 4

I thru M

Jane S. - 1st woman Akron area maintain few
months sobriety, married vice president large
steel company (D 122,241)

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++++Message 4823. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: First woman in AA? (Florence R
vs Jane S)
From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/25/2008 4:45:00 PM

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From message # 3132

The first woman to arrive on the scene in AA (in 1935) was the
legendary "Lil" of the "Victor and Lil" duo in Akron, OH (re "Dr Bob
and the Good Oldtimers pgs 97-98, 109, 241). "Lil" reputedly sobered
up outside AA. However, it is said she never got far enough along to
attend a meeting.

I'm not sure if the dry dates of Florence R or Jane S can be stated
with certainty or precision. Take for example Dr Bob's stated dry date
(June 10, 1935)and the starting date of the AMA convention in Atlantic
City, when he had his last binge for a few days (also June 10, 1935).

"Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers" provides Jane S' relative dry date
through old-timer Bob E. On pg 101 it states "Bob E who came into AA
in February 1937" (then on pg 122) "remembered that Jane S was making
the 35-mile trip to the meeting at T Henry's in 1937, about the same
time he started" [Jane's trip was from Cleveland to Akron]. Pg 241
later indicates that Jane was the wife of a "vice-president of a large
steel company."

The key words in her relative dry date are "about the same time"
[relative to February 1937]. I can't find a hard written reference to
confirm it, but sources I trust for credibility indicate that Jane S
stayed sober for only a few months.

"Pass It On" mentions Florence R. On pg 202 it states "The name 'One
Hundred Men' fell by the wayside because of objections of Florence R,
at that time the only female member." It's odd that Jane S' name isn't
also mentioned as a female member "at that time." Is it possible that
that she had already fell off the wagon and departed?

The edited story section of the Big Book was completed "in the latter
part of January 1939" (re "AA Comes of Age" pg 164). The mark-up of
the manuscript was likely completed in the latter part of March (the
book was published April 4, 1939).

Florence R, states in her story "... The drinking ended the morning I
got there ..." ["there" was Bill and Lois' home for the 2nd time]. She
then later states "That was more than a year ago." In manuscript
versions, circulating around the internet, the sentence read "That was
several years ago" which is quite obviously wrong. The key words in
her relative dry date are "more than a year ago" [but from when?].

So how to do the reckoning to establish female member primacy? It
seems to be a contest between the precision inherent in the relative
values denoted by "about" or "more than."

Is Jane S' dry date of "around February" fall on February 1st or 28th
(that's almost a month's difference) or February 14 (to split the
difference)or could late January (31st) or early March (1st)?

Is Florence R's dry date of "more than a year ago" relative to late
January 1939 (when the edited stories were completed) or mid to late
March 1939 when the mark-up was completed? If it is March 1939, then
Jane S may have primacy (and that is only a "may have"). If "more
than" is relative to January or February 1939 then Florence R has
primacy or perhaps it's a tie. The problem is does "more than" mean a
day, a week or weeks, a month, 365 days + 1, 13 or 14 months or what?

So which is earlier? I'm sticking with Florence. Why? Florence stayed
dry for over a year. Jane S lasted for a few months. If it's mainly
about when they showed up then legendary "Lil" beats them both. If the
elapsed time before they returned to drinking doesn't factor in, then
by that logic, Ebby T is the first male member of AA and should be a
founder.

However, it probably boils down to "truth by choice." In any event the
matter is not by any means certain.

Cheers
Arthur

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Robert Stonebraker
Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 3:24 AM
To: AA HistoryLovers; MuncieAA@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: First woman in AA?

From Arthur S. and Bob S.

Florence Rankin (New York), Jane S. (Cleveland),
Sylvia Kauffmann (Chicago), Ethel Macy (Akron)

- - - -

David L. asked: A question came up in my group.
Who was the first woman to join AA and when did
she join?

- - - -

From: "Arthur S" <ArtSheehan@msn.com>
(ArtSheehan at msn.com)

The first woman member was Florence R
(from NY). Her 1st edition Big Book story is
"A Feminine Victory." She relocated to the
Washington DC/Baltimore area.

Sadly she died drunk in the early 1940s (a
possible suicide).

Fitz M identified her in the morgue.

Arthur

- - - -

From: "Robert Stonebraker"
<rstonebraker212@insightbb.com>
(rstonebraker212 at insightbb.com)

Who was first, Jane or Florence?

Both Florence Rankin (New York) and Jane S.
(Cleveland) came to AA in 1937, but I have
not been able to discover which was first
to join AA or, of course, the Oxford Group
as it was then.

This humorous story is from Pages 122 & 123
from Dr. Bob & The Good Oldtimers:

Word of Akron's "not-drinking-liquor club" had
already spread to nearby towns, such as Kent
and Canton, and it was probably early 1937
when a few prospects started drifting down
from Cleveland. In the beginning, it was in
twos and threes. (By 1939, there were two
carloads.)

Bob E. remembered that Jane S. was making the
35-mile trip to the meeting at T. Henry's in
1937, about the same time he started. Colorful
and vivacious, with a fine sense of humor,
Jane is said to be the first woman in the
area to have attained any length of sobriety -
meaning a few months.

Oldtimers long remembered her story of being
left unattended by her husband to supervise
the wallpapering of a room. Trouble was, she
and the paperhanger started drinking. Each
time he began to hang a roll of paper, one or
the other would walk into it. When her husband
came home that evening, both Jane and the
paperhanger had passed out, surrounded by
empty bottles (as her husband told her later)
and all bound up in shredded paper and waste.

- - - -

Sylvia Kauffmann got sober in September of
1939 in Chicago and, so far as I can find,
stayed sober till she died. At any rate,
she was credited having the longest
uninterrupted sobriety of any woman in AA.

I believe that Ethel Macy, who wrote "From
Farm To City," was the first lady to join AA
at Akron (May, 1941). She remained sober till
she died (April 1963).

Bob S.

Yahoo! Groups Links

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++++Message 4824. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: First woman in AA? Sylvia K.
From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/25/2008 7:04:00 PM

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Point of information - As far as I know,
Sylvia K. got sober in Cleveland and Clarence
was her sponsor. Her name appears on a meeting
roster from the original Golrick group along
with Dr. Bob, Warren C. and others.

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++++Message 4825. . . . . . . . . . . . Spiritus contra spiritum in Eastern
Orthodox Christianity
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/26/2008 6:46:00 PM

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The Akathist Hymn and the story of the Icon
of the Inexhaustible Cup

Translated by Sister Dorofea (Mirochnitchenko)
and Katherine Szalasznyj

From the Eastern Orthodox Christian tradition

http://www.antiochian.org/1103412970

- - - -

From Glenn C., a brief comment:

You can see a photo of the icon which is
described (it is the second one down) at:

http://rusmonastery.org/eng/chasha.html

This is an Eastern Orthodox Christian tradition
which sees in the Holy Mother the revelation
of the feminine aspect of God. She is the
Theotokos, the one through whom God comes to
birth in our souls. She is the Gate of Heaven,
the Bridge to Heaven, and so on, and in this
case, she is the one who extends to us the
sacred chalice from which we can drink the
true healing Spirit, instead of seeking to
drown ourselves in the false spirit of alcohol.

It is very much the same idea that Carl Jung
tried to explain to Rowland Hazard: spiritus
contra spiritum.

Now let us give the traditional story, as it
appears on that web site:

- - - -

A peasant from the Efremovskii district of
Tula province, a retired soldier, was an
alcoholic, and a drunkard. He would drink
away all his pension, everything that he
possessed, anything that could be found in
his house, and eventually he was ruined and
literally became a beggar. From excessive
drinking, his legs became paralysed, but still
he continued drinking.

One day, the man, who seemed to have hit
rock-bottom, had an unusual dream. In it a
venerable old man came to him and said:

"Go to the city of Serpoukhov, to the
monastery of the Theotokos. There you will
find an icon of the Holy Mother called
The Inexhaustible Cup. Have a moleben
[a formal religious service of intercession
or supplication] before it, and you will be
healed, both spiritually and physically."

Without a penny to his name, and having no
use of his legs, the man did not dare to go
on a journey. But the holy man came to him
a second and then a third time, and was so
adamant in his admonition to obey his
instructions, that the poor drunk did not
dare to disobey any more, and he set off as
quickly as he could, dragging himself on all
fours.

In one of the neighbouring villages where he
stopped to rest, an old woman took him in for
the night. To ease his pain, she massaged his
legs, and put him to rest on top of the clay
oven, a customary place for the old or sickly,
because of the warmth. During the night the
travelling man felt a pleasant sensation in
his legs, and discovered that he was able to
stand. On the following nights his legs
became even stronger. And so, first with two
walking-sticks, and then with just one, he
arrived in Serpoukhov.

Once in the monastery, he told about his
visions, and asked to have the moleben served.
But nobody there had ever heard of such an
icon. They started to search for it, and
noticed one that was hanging in the passage
to the sacristy, that bore an image of a
chalice. On the back of it, to their surprise,
was written "The Inexhaustible Cup".

In the icon of St Varlaam, the disciple of
the holy bishop Metropolitan Aleksii, the
man immediately recognised the face of the
holy elder who had appeared to him in his
dreams.

From Serpoukhov the man departed, completely
healed. The news about the miraculous icon
spread quickly through the city, the region,
and all of Rus. Alcoholics (those bound by
the passion of drink) and their families and
friends, were coming to pray before the Mother
of God for healing, and in time many came back
to thank the all-merciful Theotokos for her
speedy help.

Let it be known that this akathist service came
to us in Canada in 1994, and we perceive that
this is God's will and from the compassion of
the Theotokos. In these times there is the
renewal of the Church's life in the lands of
Rus, and the rediscovery of God's mercy and
tender care. This akathist has been redis-
covered and is now frequently served, although
the current service of which we have a photo-
copy was printed in only 4,000 copies. We
pray that by offering these translations many
souls in North America may be healed and saved.

+ + +

KONTAK 1

A wonderful and marvellous healing has been
given to us by your holy icon, O sovereign
Lady Theotokos. By its appearance we have
been delivered from spiritual and physical
ills, and from sorrowful circumstances. So we
bring you our thankful praise, O all-merciful
Protectress. O sovereign Lady, whom we call
"The Inexhaustible Cup": bend down your ear
and mercifully hear our lamentation and tears
that we bring to you, and give your healing to
those who suffer from drunkenness, so that we
may cry out to you with faith: "REJOICE, O
INEXHAUSTIBLE CUP THAT QUENCHES OUR SPIRITUAL
THIRST!"

IKOS 1

Angelic powers and multitudes of saints con-
tinually glorify you, the Theotokos, Queen
of all, the intercessor for us sinful
Christians wallowing in lawlessness and
remaining in sins. It is for our consolation
and salvation that you in your mercy gave us
your miraculous icon, so that looking upon it,
as at the one and only star among a multitude
of stars on a starlit night, we may prostrate
ourselves, shouting from the very depths of
our heart:

REJOICE, dwelling-place of the unapproachable
God.
REJOICE, our constant wonder.
REJOICE, you make our sorrow wipe away our
sins.
REJOICE, you make our grief heal our ills.
REJOICE, through your miraculous icon, you
bring us your heavenly mercy.
REJOICE, O joy of our grieving heart.
REJOICE, our wonderful reconciliation with God.
REJOICE, O Theotokos, the Inexhaustible Cup
that quenches our spiritual thirst!

Etc., etc.

Sent to me by "John Blair"
<jblair@wmis.net> (jblair at wmis.net)

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++++Message 4826. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: First woman in AA? Sylvia K.
From: brian thompson . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/26/2008 6:52:00 PM

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--- "Mitchell K." <mitchell_k_archivist@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> Point of information - As far as I know,
> Sylvia K. got sober in Cleveland and Clarence
> was her sponsor. Her name appears on a meeting
> roster from the original Golrick group along
> with Dr. Bob, Warren C. and others.

Sylvia K. relapsed when she returned to Chicago.
Her new sobriety date was September 1939 date
of the first AA meeting there. I had contacted
her son a few years ago and she died I believe
in 1969 with 30 yrs of sobriety. She was the
first woman to acheve long term sobriety in
AA.

BRIAN T.

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++++Message 4827. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: First woman in AA? Sylvia K.
From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/26/2008 11:02:00 AM

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At 18:04 1/25/2008 , Mitchell K. wrote:

>Point of information - As far as I know,
>Sylvia K. got sober in Cleveland and Clarence
>was her sponsor. Her name appears on a meeting
>roster from the original Golrick group along
>with Dr. Bob, Warren C. and others.

Her name also appears, with an Evanston,
Illinois address, on the First 226 Members
in Akron list.

I notice on this list, which is available at

http://hindsfoot.org/akrn226b.html

and

http://hindsfoot.org/akrn226.doc

and has an X by her name indicating an early
member. There are thirty-two so indicated,
including the two founders, Earl Treat, J. D.
Holmes, Archie Trowbridge, and Bill Dotson.

There are two women included besides Sylvia;
Roberta Beckwith from Akron and Ruth Tracy
from Maumee, which is near Toledo.

There is no Warren C. on the list, FWIW.

I wonder how these two women factor in
early A.A.?

Tommy

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++++Message 4828. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: First women in AA?
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/27/2008 5:49:00 PM

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From "Sally Brown" <rev.sally@att.net>
(rev.sally at att.net)

Don't know how far anyone on AAHistoryLovers
wants to take this fine-tooth combing of which
women got sober when and for how long.

However, I haven't seen a reference in the
posts yet to the book "Women Pioneers in 12
Step Recovery," by Charlotte Hunter, Billye
Jones, Joan Zieger (Hazelden, 1999).

This book has sections on Anne Smith,
Henrietta Seiberling, Sister Ignatia, Lois
Wilson, Ruth Hock, Nell Wing, Sybil C., Ester
Elasardi, Eve M., Geraldine Owen D., Nancy
O'D., Marcelene W., Arbutus O'N., Barbara D.,
Dorothy Riggs M., Dr. Joan K. Jackson, Betty
Ford, Mary Jane Hanley, and Marty Mann. There
is also a note referring to other names that
need to be added to a list of this sort: Sylvia
K., Ethyl M., and Geneva V.

Also, Dave and I mention three other women on
p. 127 of the Marty Mann bio - Bobby Burger
(the long-time secy at AA's GSO), Ila Phillips
(a professional dancer in New York), and
Priscilla Peck (the art director of Vogue
Magazine).

And what about Wynn Corum Laws (joined AA in
California in 1947 at the age of 33), whose
story in the Big Book was "Freedom From
Bondage"?

I wouldn't be surprised if there are a number
of additional early AA women who found recovery
in AA in the early-mid 1940s, but are or were
known just to their own communities and
families.

Sometimes I think we may verge on idol (even
"idle"!) worship of sobriety dates. We all
know we're only a drink or a drug away from
disaster. It's only today that matters. I
remember, though, that it's different in
the earlier years of sobriety. "She has
two years? Oh, my God - How can that happen!"
So let me get off my soapbox. Working on a
dual dx unit where there's lots of complicated
relapse sure helps me keep my perspective
- and especially my gratitude.

Thank you again and again and again, all
you loyal, committed AA History Lovers, for
your hard work and careful vetting.

Shalom - Sally

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++++Message 4829. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: First woman in AA? Sylvia K.
From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/26/2008 9:11:00 PM

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I've got September 13, 1939 for Sylvia K's
dry date. Wasn't Earl T her sponsor?

Extracts from Nancy O's brief biographies of
story authors state:

For Earl T:

When he slipped he realized that the alcoholic
has to continue to take his own inventory
every day if he expects to get well and stay
well. Soon Dan Craske, MD began referring
prospects to him, and another doctor in
Evanston referred a woman. This was Sylvia K
("The Keys to the Kingdom"). Earl suggested
she go to Akron. There they dried her out and
explained the program to her, after which it
was suggested that she return to Chicago to
work with Earl.

For Sylvia K:

In the 1939 this doctor heard of the book
Alcoholics Anonymous ... he told her of the
handful of people in Akron and New York who
seemed to have worked out a technique for
arresting their alcoholism. He asked her to
read the book and to talk with a man who
experiencing success by using this plan.
This was Earl T ("He Sold Himself Short"),
the "Mr. T" to whom she refers on page 309
(pg 268 in 4th ed) ... Earl suggested she
visit Akron. According to Bill W, she got
off to a slow start there ... Sylvia stayed
two weeks with Clarence S, "The Home
Brewmeister" in Cleveland. She met Dr. Bob,
who brought other AA men to meet her.
Dorothy S (Clarence's wife) said that the
men "were only too willing to talk to her
after they saw her." Sylvia was a glamorous
divorcee, extremely good looking, and rich ....

Cheers
Arthur

-----Original Message-----

> Point of information - As far as I know,
> Sylvia K. got sober in Cleveland and Clarence
> was her sponsor. Her name appears on a meeting
> roster from the original Golrick group along
> with Dr. Bob, Warren C. and others.

Sylvia K. relapsed when she returned to Chicago.
Her new sobriety date was September 1939 date
of the first AA meeting there. I had contacted
her son a few years ago and she died I believe
in 1969 with 30 yrs of sobriety. She was the
first woman to acheve long term sobriety in
AA.

BRIAN T.

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++++Message 4830. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: the phrase AA textbook
From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/25/2008 4:19:00 PM

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From Baileygc23, Jon Markle, and Jenny Andrews

- - - -

FROM: Baileygc23@aol.com
(Baileygc23 at aol.com)

The big book says, this book is meant to be
suggestive, only. Page 164.

- - - -

FROM: Jon Markle <serenitylodge@bellsouth.net>
(serenitylodge at bellsouth.net)

While it is true that the front of the
jacket cover contains that statement, the
inside flap, apparently continues to defer
to the more definitive language thus: "The
basic text, pages I - 164, . . . "

Also, if the jacket cover is removed, which
many people do, do we find that statement
repeated elsewhere in the book? If not, then
how important could this assumption be?

So, perhaps it is simply a matter of
extrapolating what exact meaning these two
instances hold for us. If any.

I like the inclusion of Bill Wilson's statement
on the inside flap. However that cannot be
brought forward to today's Book, because the
stories are not the same. His observations can
only be applied to the book at the time of his
writing that letter. We can only assume that
idea might also apply to the current edition.

Of course . . . I don't look at the book as
a sacred work, so it doesn't make so much
difference to me. Except as it's an inter-
esting observation.

All good text books are revised from time to
time. Good information and instruction never
remains stagnant.

Hugs for the trudge.

Jon (Raleigh)
9/9/82

- - - -

From: jenny andrews <jennylaurie1@hotmail.com>
(jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com)

"I would imagine Bill is intending to instruct
the Fellowship..." I doubt it. Bill was always
careful not to instruct ("Our book is meant
to be suggestive only.") The various AA texts
can be compared to a signpost, which gives
neutral directions - not instructions. When
Winston Churchill was Prime Minister he asked
his Education Secretary Rab Butler what could
be done to make children more patriotic. "Tell
them Wolfe won Quebec," he mused. Butler
replied, "I would like to influence what was
taught in schools but this was always frowned
on." "Of course," Churchill rejoined, "not
by instruction or order but by suggestion."

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++++Message 4831. . . . . . . . . . . . Sybil C. & Tex
From: Danny Graham . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/28/2008 12:52:00 PM

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I am doing some research on Sybil C. from
Los Angeles and her brother Tex. Does anyone
have a copy of the letter Sybil wrote to
Bill W. following Tex's death in 1958? I have
a copy of Bill's response, but am looking for
the first letter.

- - - -

http://www.barefootsworld.net/aasybilc.html

Sybil C.
The First Woman in A.A. West of the Mississippi
by Nancy O.

Sybil C. was the first woman to enter A.A.
west of the Mississippi. Her date of sobriety
was March 23, 1941. Her name at the time was
Sybil Maxwell, though she later opened her
talks by saying, "My name is Sybil Doris Adams
Stratton Hart Maxwell Willis C., and I'm an
alcoholic."

She was born Sybil Doris Adams on May 20, 1908,
in the small oil town of Simians, Texas. Her
parents were poor but hardworking and she had
a brother Herman, ten years her senior. Herman
was called "Tex." Sybil adored her big brother.
She remembered that when she was five and he
fifteen, he would hold her and rock her to
sleep.

Tex joined the Army during World War I, was
reported missing in action, and when the family
heard nothing further they assumed he was dead.
However, when Sybil was thirteen they learned
that he was alive and living in Los Angeles.
The family immediately moved to California.

Sybil felt like a misfit in Los Angeles. She
affected the flapper makeup popular at the
time: heavy white powder on her face, and two
big red spots of rouge on her cheeks and lots
of lipstick and black eyebrows.

"I must have looked like a circus freak or
something like that," she wailed. "I was in
eighth grade out there in Los Angeles, and
the other kids laughed at me. I had trouble
making friends, being shy and timid by nature,
but also my papa wouldn't let boys even walk
home with me, let alone go to parties. I just
wasn't allowed to do anything, and I knew I
didn't belong anywhere."

"So naturally I started drinking at a very
early age, against my better judgment, full
of shame and remorse because of Papa's
teachings. He was a good man. When I was
fifteen, I got drunk one night, passed out,
and had to be carried home and put to bed in
my mother's bed. I cried the next day and
promised that it would never happen again --
and I meant it. But I didn't know myself, I
didn't know the disease of alcoholism. The
next Saturday night the kids handed me a
bottle and I drank it. And I continued to do
that through a couple of semesters of high
school, and I stayed drunk through seventeen
years of failed marriages and more jobs than
I can count."

Sybil dropped out of high school and took a
secretarial course and was hired as a secretary.
It was the first in a long list of jobs. At
various times she was a real estate broker,
a taxi driver, a bootlegger, an itinerant farm
worker, the editor of a magazine for pet
owners, and a salesperson. 'I didn't mind
working," she said, "but I never seemed to
get anywhere. I was just on a treadmill because
of booze."

She had a child by her first husband, a sailor.
She thought having the child would prevent
her drinking, but she drank more than ever, and
her parents eventually took the child from
her.

She and her husband hitchhiked out of town to
find grape picking jobs. They thought getting
away from their city friends would help them
quit drinking, but she soon was drunk again.
During one of her drunks she heard music. At
first she thought she was hallucinating, but
she followed the sound and wandered into a
tent where a revival meeting was in progress.
The preacher asked for anyone to come forward
who wanted to be saved.

"Well, that was me," Sybil told A.A. members.
"I went all the way down while the people were
singing. The preacher put his hand out and
placed it on my head, and I threw up all over
him. It was so terrible! I was so ashamed, I
couldn't bring myself to tell anyone about
it until I got into Alcoholics Anonymous eleven
years later."

She left her sailor husband and hitchhiked back
to Los Angeles to her mother's house. Her
brother, Tex, now had a speakeasy on skid row,
and to make money to take to her mother to
support the child, she went into the boot-
legging business with him. Eventually the
speakeasy was raided and they were out of
business. Then she went to work in a taxi-dance
hall.

Little is known of her second husband, but she
met her third husband, Dick Maxwell, while
working in the taxi-dance hall. One night a
rich, handsome stranger walked in and bought
dance tickets with Sybil for the whole night.
During intermission he bought several pitchers
of beer (the girls got a dollar for every
pitcher their partner bought), and she told
him her sad story. He offered to marry her and
adopt her child if she would promise not to
drink any more.

Now she had a wonderful husband, a home, a
housekeeper, and a car. But she couldn't
stop drinking.

In 1939, while visiting her mother, she read
the Liberty magazine article called "Alcoholics
and God." She thought the story fascinating
but did nothing about it and her downward
spiral continued.

Eighteen months later God gave her another
chance, when she read the Saturday Evening
Post's March 1, 1941 issue which contained the
famous Jack Alexander article about A.A.. She
wrote to New York and received a reply from
Ruth Hock, then Bill Wilson's secretary, who
told her that there were no women members in
California, but that Marty Mann was sober in
New York. Ruth referred her to the small group
of men then in the area.

On Friday, March 23, Sybil's nonalcoholic
husband, Dick Maxwell, drove her to the
meeting. They found ten or twelve men seated
around a table and three or four women seated
against the wall. When the chairman began the
meeting he announced "As is our custom before
the regular meeting starts, we have to ask the
women to leave." Sybil left with the other
women but her husband stayed and the members
assumed he was the alcoholic. When he rejoined
Sybil he said "They don't know you're alive.
They just went on and on bragging about their
drinking until I was about to walk out, when
they jumped up and said the Lord's Prayer,
and here I am." Sybil headed for the nearest
bar and got drunk.

But she remembered that Ruth Hock had written,
"If you need help, call Cliff W." and had
given her his phone number. He explained:
"You didn't tell us you were an alcoholic. We
thought you were one of the wives. If you
had identified yourself as an alcoholic,
you would have been welcome as the flowers
in May."

When she returned the following week, Frank R.
brought in a large carton full of letters
bundled into bunches of twenty to fifty. He
explained that they were all inquiries and
calls for help from people in southern Cali-
fornia. "Here they are! Here they are! If any
of you jokers have been sober over fifteen
minutes, come on up here and get these
letters. We've got to get as many of these
drunks as we can in here by next Friday, or
they may die."

The last bundle was of letters from women.
Frank said: "Sybil Maxwell, come on up. I am
going to put you in charge of all the women."

Sybil liked the idea of "being in charge" but
replied, "I can't, sir. You said I have to
make all those calls by next Friday, or
somebody might die. Well, I'll be drunk by
next Friday unless you have some magic that
will change everything so I can stay sober."

Frank explained that everything she needed to
know was in the Big Book. "And it says right
in here that when all other measures fail,
working with another alcoholic will save the
day. That's what you will be doing, Sybil,
working with other alcoholics. You just get
in your car and take your mind off yourself.
Think about someone sicker than you are. Go
see her and hand her the letter she wrote,
and say: 'I wrote one like this last week,
and they answered mine and told me to come
and see you. If you have a drinking problem
like I have, and if you want to get sober as
bad as I do, you come with me and we'll find
out together how to do it.' Don't add another
word to that, because you don't know anything
yet. Just go get 'em."

It worked, and she never had another drink.

When Bill and Lois Wilson made their first
visit to Los Angeles in 1943, Sybil was one
of the delegation of local A.A.'s who met
them at the Town House hotel. Later she met
Marty Mann.

But Dick Maxwell began to feel abandoned and
lonely. He urged her to cut down on her A.A.
activities so that they could have more of a
home life. He had grown to hate A.A. and
refused to read the Big Book or discuss the
Twelve Steps. Finally he suggested that the
solution to their marriage problems was for
her to go back to drinking and he would take
care of her.

Sybil quickly packed a bag and left. She left
her lovely home and rented a housekeeping room
with a gas hotplate and a bath down the hall
for nine dollars a week and went to work for
the L.A. Times to support herself. "A.A. just
had to come first with me," she explained.

Her brother, Tex, joined the week after she
did. He started the second A.A. group in the
area, and appointed Sybil coffeemaker and
greeter for the new group, and finally made
her deliver her first shaky talk.

When Tex died in 1952, Sybil was devastated.
She wrote Bill Wilson, pouring out her grief
and asked, "What am I going to do, Bill?
I don't crave a drink, but I think I'm going
to die unless I get some answers." She said
Bill's answer saved her life. He wrote:
____________________

November 6, 1952

My dear Sybil,

Thanks for your letter of October 21st - it
was just about the most stirring thing I have
read in many a day. The real test of our way
of life is how it works when the chips are
down. Though I've sometimes seen A.A.s make
rather a mess of living, I've never seen a
sober one make a bad job of dying.

But the account you give me of Tex's last days
is something I shall treasure always. I hope
I can do half as well when my time comes. I am
one who believes that in my Father's house
are many mansions. If that were not so there
couldn't be any justice. I can almost see Tex
sitting on the front porch of one, right now,
talking in the sunlight with others of God's
ladies and gentlemen who have gone on before.
I certainly agree with you that little was
left in Tex's grave. All he had was left
behind in the hearts of the rest of us and
he carried just that same amount forward to
where he is now. If you like what I've said,
please read it to the Huntington Park Group.
In any case, congratulate them for me that
they had the privilege of knowing a guy like
Tex.

As for you, my dear, there is no need to give
you advice. How well you understand that the
demonstration is the thing, after all. It
isn't so much a question of whether we have
a good time or a bad time. The only thing that
will be asked is what we do with the
experience we have. That you are doing well
with our tough lot is something for which I
and many others are bound to be grateful. This
is but a long day in school. Some of the
lessons are hard and others are easy. I know
you will keep on learning and passing what
you learned. What more does one person need
to know about another!

Affectionately yours,
/s/ Bill
WGW/nw

Sybil Willis
2874A Randolph
Huntington Park, California
____________________

The letter touched Sybil so deeply she gave
many copies to people who were at a low point
in life, and a few years ago someone I met at
an on-line meeting sent a copy to me.

At the time of the letter, she was married
to Jim Willis, the founder of Gamblers'
Anonymous.

Sybil is perhaps best remembered as the first
executive secretary of the Los Angeles Central
office of A.A., a position she held for twelve
years. This was a turbulent time for A.A., with
much disunity and controversy within the groups
that led to the Twelve Traditions. Sybil
remembered that the groups regarded them
either with opposition or indifference and
the Central Office couldn't sell many copies
of the Traditions pamphlet.

Understandably, since Sybil began doing Twelfth
Step work immediately, she took a dim view of
the rigidity that crept into the requirements.
Some areas required six months or even a year
of sobriety before one was allowed to call on
new prospects. She advised "If you don't get
prospects from the Central Office, look around
the meeting rooms. There is always the forgotten
man or woman, nervous and scared, who would
love to have you come up and shake hands. Just
feel what the new person is feeling. It kept
me sober, it kept my brother Tex sober, and
it will keep you sober when all other measures
fail."

Her fifth and enduring marriage was to another
A.A. member, Bob C. He has been described a
"a high-spirited, warm, and loving man,
fourteen years her junior in age and twenty-two
years her junior in sobriety."

"Bob and I are very happy," Sybil declared.
"This has been the best years of my life."
They were both enthusiastic meeting-goers and
enjoyed an incredibly wide circle of A.A.
friends.

Sybil was honored at the International A.A.
Convention in Montreal in 1985. She was then
the longest-sober living woman in A.A. When
she was introduced to the 50,000 attendees
from fifty-three countries, she told the
colorful story of A.A.'s beginning in Los
Angeles, in which she had played such a vital
role. When she finished her talk, the audience
rose to its feet as one and gave her a standing
ovation which continued so long that some
thought it would never stop.

Sybil died in 1988.

[From Harry V., Los Angeles Archivist, Sybil
died in late April 1988, and the A.A.
Memorial Service for Sybil was held June 5th,
1988. Her Memorial service kept getting
postponed due to A.A. conference dates already
on the schedule. It was a two hour plus long
A.A. Memorial.]

Sources:

"Women Pioneers in 12 Step Recovery," by
Charlotte Hunter, Billye Jones, Joan Zieger.
"Gratefull to Have Been There," by Nell Wing.

Various tapes of Sybil's talks.

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++++Message 4832. . . . . . . . . . . . WorldCat.org, a research aid...
From: Charlie C . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/29/2008 9:34:00 PM

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Hi, I'm a reference librarian, and it
occured to me that maybe some of you AA
History researchers might find

http://WorldCat.org

of interest. This is the public, free
version of a longstanding library resource,
also called WorldCat. Basically WorldCat is a
massive (really massive, as in millions of
items) collection of library catalog records
from libraries across the U.S. and some other
locations.

So what does that do for you? Let's say
you want to read more about someone like Emmet
Fox, or a movement like the Oxford groups. You
look in your local library system catalog and
maybe don't find much. What to do? Is that all
there is?

Maybe, but maybe not. Try WorldCat.org.
It will give you an idea of what is really "out
there" in libraries. It will also, once you
have a list of results, help you to see which
libraries in your region have the item.

Please note that not all libraries are
open to one and all to come check books out.
It is best to contact a library first before
you go there. WorldCat helpfully provides
contact info and web site links to its member
libraries, which is pretty much everyone.

Or, you can ask your local library to get
the book for you through "inter-library loan."
This handy system enables a library in one
place to search for and have sent to it books
from other libraries in the, yes, the WorldCat
system.

Not all items you may see in WorldCat will
necessarily be available - some may be rare and
the holding library won't send it, or out of
state and your local library won't get items
from out of state.... Local policies vary, and
some public libraries need to charge at least
a token fee to recoup some of their costs,
although it usually is a mere token, and some
libraries do not charge at all.

Have fun and do support your local library!

Charlie C.
IM, Yahoo = route20guy

"So settle down and quit your traveling ways.,
'cause the boogerman's gonna get you one of these days...".
(Kitty Wells, Make Up Your Mind)

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++++Message 4833. . . . . . . . . . . . Who can change the text of the BB
and how?
From: CloydG . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/28/2008 1:24:00 PM

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I've heard that GSO provides a board of
alcoholic and non alcoholic trustees that
are entrusted to preserve the original text
"forever" as it was originally written.
Is that true? If not, what would it take to
change it? I'm not interested in a debate,
only historical guidelines that the founders
provided for the fellowship.

Clyde G.
01/03/95

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++++Message 4834. . . . . . . . . . . . Significant February Dates in A.A.
History
From: chesbayman56 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/31/2008 3:26:00 PM

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Feb 1908 - Bill made boomerang.
Feb 1916 - hazing incident Norwich University, Bill & sophomore class
suspended
Feb 1938 - Rockefeller gives $5,000 to AA. - Saves AA from
professionalization.
Feb 1939 - Dr Harry Tiebout, 1st Psychiatrist to endorse AA and use
in his practice.
Feb 1939 - Dr Howard of Montclair, NJ suggests swapping "you musts"
for "we ought" in the Big Book.
Feb 1940 - 1st AA clubhouse opens at 334-1/2 West 24th Street, NYC.
Feb 1951 - Fortune magazine article about AA. New York reprints in
pamphlet form for many years.
Feb 1963 - Harpers carries article critical of AA.
Feb 1981 - 1st issue of "Markings" AA Archives Newsletter is
published.
Feb 1 or 2, 1942 - Ruth Hock, AA's 1st paid secretary, resigns to get
married.
Feb 8, 1940 - Rockefeller dinner.
Feb 8, 1940 - Houston Press ran first of 6 anonymous articles on AA
by Larry J.
Feb 9, 2002 - Sue Smith Windows, Dr Bob's daughter died.
Feb 11, 1937 - First New Jersey meeting was held at the home of Hank
P ("The Unbeliever" in the first edition). Some sources report this
as happening Feb 13, 1937
Feb 11, 1938 - Clarence S. ("Home Brewmeister" 1st-3rd edition)
sobriety date.
Feb 14, 1971 - AA groups worldwide hold memorial service for Bill W.
Feb 14, 2000 - William Y., "California Bill" dies in Winston Salem,
NC.
Feb 15, 1918 - Sue Smith Windows, Dr. Bob's adopted daughter, was
born.
Feb 15, 1941 - Baltimore Sunday Sun reported that the city's first AA
group, begun in June 1940, had grown from 3 to 40 members.
Feb 17, - Jim B contacted Charlie B, whom he had met once, some two
years before, at a New York AA meeting.
Feb 18, 1943 - During gas rationing in WWII, AA's are granted the
right to use cars for 12th step work in emergency cases.
Feb 19, 1967 - Father "John Doe" (Ralph P), 1st Catholic Priest in AA
dies.
Feb 20, 1941 - The Toledo Blade published first of three articles on
AA by Seymour Rothman.
Feb 23, 1959 - AA granted "Recording for the Blind" permission to
tape the Big Book.
Feb 28, 1940 - First organization meeting of Philadelphia AA was held
at McCready Huston's room at 2209 Delancy Street.

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++++Message 4835. . . . . . . . . . . . March of Times 1946 news clips about
AA
From: momaria33772 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/31/2008 11:21:00 AM

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I just received these today. I found them
delightful, the March of Time played at ALL
the American movie theaters.

This is an example of the great Public Informa-
tion that took place in the '40s.

(You may have to cut and
paste into your browser.)

These are Five AA archival newscasts from Time.

For a delightful glimpse into AA's past,
please follow the links below.

http://www.hboarchives.com/apps/searchlibrary/ctl/gotoclipdetails?key=TQ4931
2111\

_015&flash=6 [2]

http://www.hboarchives.com/apps/searchlibrary/ctl/gotoclipdetails?key=TQ4931
2111\

_025&flash=6 [3]

http://www.hboarchives.com/apps/searchlibrary/ctl/gotoclipdetails?key=TQ4931
2111\

_016&flash=6 [4]

http://www.hboarchives.com/apps/searchlibrary/ctl/gotoclipdetails?key=TQ4931
2111\

_017&flash=6 [5]

http://www.hboarchives.com/apps/searchlibrary/ctl/gotoclipdetails?key=TQ4931
2111\

_026&flash=6 [6]

- - - -

From the moderator:

The last one (number five) has a nice
section showing a young Marty Mann
speaking to an audience. She was able to
communicate effectively with any kind of
audience whatsoever, and get them on her
side.

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

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++++Message 4836. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Who can change the text of the
BB and how?
From: Jim Hoffman . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/30/2008 4:27:00 PM

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The annual Conference has passed Advisory
Actions meant to protect the Doctor’s Opinion,
the first 164 pages and Dr. Bob’s story from
change without the written consent of three
quarters of all registered groups.

Advisory Actions have also extended this
protection to the Twelve Traditions and the
Twelve Concepts.

This means that more than 2/3 of the
Delegates at the Conference approved those
Advisory Actions.

As the Conference Charter states Advisory
Actions have no force of law. In other words,
the Trustees have every legal right to ignore
those directives. However, we have a history
of honoring the substantially unanimous
conscience of the fellowship as expressed
by the Delegates through the Conference.

As a result the Trustees have never acted
in opposition to any Advisory Action. In
fact, they will honor actions approved by
a strong majority that does not quite reach
the 2/3 level.

- - - -

That does not mean the Big Book has not changed
over the years. There is an original manuscript
that you will frequently see at Conferences,
Dinners and Conventions. Many times you will
hear its version of “How It Works” at such an
event because it is different from the version
that was eventually published. That manuscript
was changed by revue of the fellowship that
resulted in rewrite by Bill.

- - - -

There are also changes over the years to the
originally published version. Dr. Silkworth’s
name did not appear with his letter in early
printings. The Doctor’s Opinion used to be on
Page 1 and now it is a roman numeral section
and Bill’s Story is on Page 1.

Numeric references were also changed in
various printings. The one that struck me
first when I was newly reading the book was
the reference to “Here are thousands of men
and women” in the chapter, We Agnostics. I
wondered how that could be when there were
only a hundred when the book was written.
The answer was that these kinds of references
were updated over the several printings.
However, the basic ideas and word of the
basic text have not been changed.

- - - -

To see how strong the feeling against change
is we only have to look at the Fourth Edition.
When the first printing came out, there were
some editorial changes made to DR. Bob’s story.
These were strictly grammar and punctuation
changes but they elicited tremendous reaction
within the fellowship. An item was submitted
and accepted for the following year’s Confer-
ence Agenda. One basis of the item is that
the story had been changed without the written
approval of three fourths of the registered
groups. At the Conference, the Delegates voted
to reverse the changes.

- - - -

So, the way you would change any of these
items, you would have to submit the change to
be considered as an Agenda item for the
following Conference. It would have to be
accepted and added to the Conference. An
individual could submit it but it might have
a better chance of acceptance if it went
through your Delegate Area and the Area and
Delegate submitted letters of support. If it
made the Agenda, the Delegates would then have
to approve sending it to the registered groups
seeking their approval. If three fourths
approved then the change would be made.

- - - -

If there are other ways to get it to the groups
for approval, I’m not aware of them. Perhaps
some past Delegates or Trustees can weigh in.
In either case, you would still need the group
approval. So as you can see there is a way
but the practicality of it happening is
“remote” at best. I would say it is probably
“nil”.

Jim Hoffman

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++++Message 4837. . . . . . . . . . . . Original AA Members
From: flat412acrehouse . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/29/2008 10:11:00 PM

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I read message #4543 referring to the first
100 AA members, and also looked at the list
of the first 226 Akron members at

http://hindsfoot.org/akrn226b.html

I and my group wished to know if any of
these AA members (on either list) are still
alive today.

Thanking you kindly
gentle blessings
leah

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++++Message 4838. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: March of Times 1946 news clips
about AA
From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/31/2008 8:39:00 PM

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At 10:21 1/31/2008 , you wrote:

> >From the moderator:
>
>The last one (number five) has a nice
>section showing a young Marty Mann
>speaking to an audience. She was able to
>communicate effectively with any kind of
>audience whatsoever, and get them on her
>side.
>
>Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

My wife Jean and I watched these. She is a
nurse who practiced in the Metropolitan
New York City area as well as Long Island
for over 35 years.

She recognized the Freeport Hospital in
the last clip and says that was where
Dr. Thibault had a lot of his patients.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

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++++Message 4839. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Who can change the text of the
BB and how?
From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/31/2008 9:37:00 PM

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Hi Jim

Your statement is not correct. You also
seem to be getting context a bit scrambled
regarding the relationship between the Board
and Conference.

A 1976 Conference advisory action expanded the
provisions of Article 3 of the Conference
Charter. It specified that any change to the
Steps, Traditions or Six Warranties of Article
12 of the Conference Charter, would require
written approval of 75% of the registered
AA Groups known to General Service Offices
around the world. This Conference advisory
action effectively makes any proposed change
to the Steps, Traditions and Warranties a
virtual impossibility (even so much as adding
or removing a comma). The 12 Concepts are not
included in this (other than for Concept 12
which is also Article 12 of the Conference
Charter - aka the six "Warrantees").

The basic text of the Big Book is pretty much
"protected" from change by the prevailing
sentiment of the members of the AA Fellowship
as a whole. Changes to the Big Book can be
accomplished by Conference advisory action.
However, I doubt that they would get very far
in reality. Several Conference advisory actions
related to the development of the 4th edition
Big Book specified that no changes were to be
made to the forewords, basic text, appendices
and "Dr. Bob's Nightmare." They were to "remain
as is." This pretty much represents the ongoing
sentiment of the AA membership that emerged
with 2nd edition Big Book (1955).

In the 4th edition, punctuation changes were
made to "Dr. Bob's Nightmare." It subsequently
was interpreted that the Trustee's Literature
Committee was non-responsive to several
Conference's advisory actions that the story
"remain as is." My own take on it is that it
was likely an honest mistake because there were
so many Conference advisory actions passed on
the matter.

In two of the advisory actions, the Conference
authorized the literature committee to make
punctuation changes if they were done to
correct errors. It could very easily be
interpreted to include all the "remain as is"
sections. On the other hand, it can very
easily be interpreted that "remain as is"
means "remain as is."

The 2003 Conference allowed the changes to
stand. The 2004 Conference passed an advisory
action to restore the original punctuation.

The Service Manual and Twelve Concepts for
World Service provide the guidelines for the
context of the relationship between the Board
and the Conference.

Article 4 of the Current Conference Charter
reads:

4. Conference Relation to the General Service
Board and its Corporate Services: The Conf-
erence will replace the founders of Alcoholics
Anonymous, who formerly functioned as guides
and advisers to the General Service Board
and its related service corporations. The
Conference will be expected to afford a
reliable cross section of A.A. opinion for
this purpose.

A quorum shall consist of two-thirds of all
the Conference members registered.

It will be understood, as a matter of tradi-
tion, that a two-thirds vote of Conference
members voting shall be considered binding
upon the General Service Board and its related
corporate services, provided the total vote
constitutes at least a Conference quorum. But
no such vote ought to impair the legal rights
of the General Service Board and the service
corporations to conduct routine business and
make ordinary contracts relating thereto.

It will be further understood, regardless of
the legal prerogatives of the General Service
Board, as a matter of tradition, that a
three-quarters vote of all Conference members
may bring about a reorganization of the
General Service Board and the directors and
staff members of its corporate services, if or
when such reorganization is deemed essential.

Under such a proceeding, the Conference may
request resignations, may nominate new
trustees, and may make all other necessary
arrangements regardless of the legal preroga-
tives of the General Service Board.

Cheers
Arthur

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jim Hoffman
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 3:27 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: Who can change the text of the BB and how?

The annual Conference has passed Advisory
Actions meant to protect the Doctor's Opinion,
the first 164 pages and Dr. Bob's story from
change without the written consent of three
quarters of all registered groups.

Advisory Actions have also extended this
protection to the Twelve Traditions and the
Twelve Concepts.

This means that more than 2/3 of the
Delegates at the Conference approved those
Advisory Actions.

As the Conference Charter states Advisory
Actions have no force of law. In other words,
the Trustees have every legal right to ignore
those directives. However, we have a history
of honoring the substantially unanimous
conscience of the fellowship as expressed
by the Delegates through the Conference.

As a result the Trustees have never acted
in opposition to any Advisory Action. In
fact, they will honor actions approved by
a strong majority that does not quite reach
the 2/3 level.

- - - -

That does not mean the Big Book has not changed
over the years. There is an original manuscript
that you will frequently see at Conferences,
Dinners and Conventions. Many times you will
hear its version of "How It Works" at such an
event because it is different from the version
that was eventually published. That manuscript
was changed by revue of the fellowship that
resulted in rewrite by Bill.

- - - -

There are also changes over the years to the
originally published version. Dr. Silkworth's
name did not appear with his letter in early
printings. The Doctor's Opinion used to be on
Page 1 and now it is a roman numeral section
and Bill's Story is on Page 1.

Numeric references were also changed in
various printings. The one that struck me
first when I was newly reading the book was
the reference to "Here are thousands of men
and women" in the chapter, We Agnostics. I
wondered how that could be when there were
only a hundred when the book was written.
The answer was that these kinds of references
were updated over the several printings.
However, the basic ideas and word of the
basic text have not been changed.

- - - -

To see how strong the feeling against change
is we only have to look at the Fourth Edition.

When the first printing came out, there were
some editorial changes made to DR. Bob's story.
These were strictly grammar and punctuation
changes but they elicited tremendous reaction
within the fellowship. An item was submitted
and accepted for the following year's Confer-
ence Agenda. One basis of the item is that
the story had been changed without the written
approval of three fourths of the registered
groups. At the Conference, the Delegates voted
to reverse the changes.

- - - -

So, the way you would change any of these
items, you would have to submit the change to
be considered as an Agenda item for the
following Conference. It would have to be
accepted and added to the Conference. An
individual could submit it but it might have
a better chance of acceptance if it went
through your Delegate Area and the Area and
Delegate submitted letters of support. If it
made the Agenda, the Delegates would then have
to approve sending it to the registered groups
seeking their approval. If three fourths
approved then the change would be made.

- - - -

If there are other ways to get it to the groups
for approval, I'm not aware of them. Perhaps
some past Delegates or Trustees can weigh in.
In either case, you would still need the group
approval. So as you can see there is a way
but the practicality of it happening is
"remote" at best. I would say it is probably
"nil".

Jim Hoffman

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++++Message 4840. . . . . . . . . . . . Big Book font and Dr. Bob''s Buick
automobile
From: Robyn Mitchell . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/31/2008 9:11:00 PM

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Does anybody know what fonts have been used
in the various editions of the Big Book and
the Twelve and Twelve? The fonts on the cover
of the 12x12 are different from the actual
text.

Secondly, I once saw a picture of Dr. Bob in
the Buick he bought in the year or so before
he died, I didn't mark the site, does anyone
know where I might find the image again?

Thanks muchly,
Robyn

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++++Message 4841. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr. Bob''s Buick automobile
From: Cindy Miller . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/31/2008 10:33:00 PM

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Photo of Dr. Bob with his Buick in "Dr. Bob
and The Good Oldtimers," page 335.

Best,
Cindy Miller

- - - -

Also from:

"Bruce C." <brucecl2002@yahoo.com>
(brucecl2002 at yahoo.com)

"Jay Pees" <racewayjay@atlanticbb.net>
(racewayjay at atlanticbb.net)

"tomper87" <tomper99@yahoo.com>
(tomper99 at yahoo.com)

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++++Message 4842. . . . . . . . . . . . Basic Text
From: Sober186@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/31/2008 4:50:00 PM

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To me, it appears as if Bill W. was thinking
of the Book Alcoholics Anonymous as a text
book even before it was completely written.

In the A.A. Service Manual, Bill discusses
his creation of the book. He states that at
one point consideration was given to getting
an advance from Harpers. At this point there
were only two chapters completed.

On page S4 of the A.A. Service Manual, Bill
writes:

"There was another problem too, and a serious
one. If our A. A. book became the basic text
for Alcoholics Anonymous, its ownership would
be in other hands. It was evident that our
society ought to own and publish its own
literature."

Jim L.

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++++Message 4843. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Sybil C. & Tex
From: Debi Ubernosky . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/2/2008 5:53:00 PM

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Howdy AA History Lovers,

I'm curious about the reference to Sybil C's
supposed hometown of Simians, Texas.

(I'm a Texan!)

I've never heard of this town, and a Google
search does not return anything about it, nor
is there any reference to it on the State of
Texas website or the Texas Historical Society
website.

Here's another site I checked:

http://www.rootsweb.com/~usgenweb/tx/cities.htm.

So I'm wondering if there is something that
documents where Sybil was from, or whether
this is a misspelling, or something else that
could clear this up.

Thanks,

Debi

- - - -

http://www.barefootsworld.net/aasybilc.html

Sybil C.
The First Woman in A.A. West of the Mississippi
by Nancy O.

Sybil C. was the first woman to enter A.A.
west of the Mississippi. Her date of sobriety
was March 23, 1941 ....

She was born Sybil Doris Adams on May 20, 1908,
in the small oil town of Simians, Texas. Her
parents were poor but hardworking and she had
a brother Herman, ten years her senior. Herman
was called "Tex" ....

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++++Message 4844. . . . . . . . . . . . Who was Betty Love?
From: terry walton . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/3/2008 3:00:00 AM

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In "The Soul of Sponsorship" by Robert
Fitzgerald, S.J., page 56, in a letter
written by Bill Wilson to Father Ed,
he wrote:

"We'd very much like your criticisms of the
material enclosed. Do we run across the grain
of your ideas anywhere, do you care for the
writing style and is the structural situation
depicted in conformity with your observations
of AA?"

Bill also mentioned he had good help from some
other writers: Tom Powers, Betty Love and Jack
Alexander.

My question is, who was Betty Love?

I have found zero hits on the name Betty Love
on this history site.

Thank you,

Terry

P.S. On the same page Bill wrote this for a
motive behind the writing of the 12x12. He
used the word "bait."

Letter from Bill W to Father Ed (page 56
same book):

"If we are able to do a fair job on the steps,
that will be helpful and, published along with
the traditions, they may act as a bait for
reading the latter. However we'll see."

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++++Message 4845. . . . . . . . . . . . Irma Livoni -- first woman kicked
out of AA -- 1941
From: Jay Lawyer . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/3/2008 6:21:00 PM

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I just received this. Thought it was inter-
esting. This is a good example of why the
12 Traditions were necessary.

- - - -

Patti <paks68@optonline.net>
(paks68 at optonline.net) wrote:

Here is the story about Irma Livoni that some
of you asked about. Each year around this time
I try to tell this true story about what
happened not just on Dec 7th 1941 (Pearl
Harbor Day) but what happened to one of the
few women who was in AA at that time, and about
a letter she received in the mail, on Monday,
December 8th, which virtually kicked her out
of AA. This is a long email, so read it
when/if you have the time.

In Dec of 1984, I had been sober for 2-1/2
years, and working with my sponsors Bob and
Sybil Corwin since Jan of 84. Sybil had
gotten sober in March of 1941, so at the time
she was 43 yrs sober. We were driving home
from a meeting and she asked me the date
(to her it was just Sunday). I told her it
was Dec 8th, and that yesterday (Dec 7th) was
the anniversary of Pearl Harbor Day.

She said "Matt, have I ever told you about
Irma Livoni?"

"Nope, who is she?"

She said, "Well, when we get back to the
house, come in for coffee and I’ll tell you
a story about AA history and some of the
reasons we have tradition 3. Oh, and by the
way Matt, did you know that the literature
specifically protects 'queers, plain crackpots,
and fallen women,' and since you and I are at
least two out of those three, we should be
especially grateful for tradition 3? I'll
show you it when we get home."

I laughed out loud, as Sybil had a great sense
of humor, and she had been a taxi dancer,
back before she got sober, you know one of
those "10 cents a dance" ladies, and she was
divorced twice, and was a single mom, as well
as an alcoholic back then, so the term "fallen
woman" was something that hit close to home.

She had told me that it was very different
back in the 30's and 40's for a woman to be
an alcoholic. Sybil said It was a time when
women wore hats and gloves, and "respectable
women" were not usually found in a bar, or
at "whoopie parties."

Our Thursday night step study had voted to
not cover the traditions after we got to
step 12, so I figured they must not be very
important and thought I’d probably be bored
with the conversation, but she got my attention
telling me that "queers, crackpots and fallen
women" were mentioned, so I agreed to come in
for coffee.

Besides Sybil had been sober longer than I
had been alive. I didn't argue with her very
much.

Sybil got down her copy of the big book. She
said, I want you to find the traditions in
there, and read me tradition 3. It was a 1st
edition Big Book. Thicker than mine.

I said, "Is this why they call it the Big
Book?"

She said, "exactly, Bill had it printed on
big paper, with big margins around the type,
so that people would think they were really
getting something for their money."

I looked in the back of the book, where I
thought the traditions were, but couldn't
find them. "I can’t find them, Sybil."

"Exactly. That's because we didn't have any
traditions back in 1941 when I came in. And
Matt, AA was in mortal danger of destroying
itself, which is why we have traditions now."
Then she had me find them in my 3rd edition
and in my 12 & 12. I didn't read it all,
just the caption heading, and then she started
telling me the story of IRMA LIVONI.

Irma was a sponsee of Sybil's. She also
became a member in 1941, just after Sybil.
Sybil took her into her home. (Sybil told me
that many people's bottoms were very low then,
no home, no job, no watch, no car, nothing).
Sybil said it was different then for a woman
to be an alcoholic. That most of them had
burned all their bridges with their families,
and were looked down upon, even more so than
male alcoholics. Sybil said she watched AA
help Irma get sober, watched AA help Irma get
cleaned up, watched AA help Irma get her first
job in sobriety, and watched AA help Irma get
her first apartment in sobriety.

Then she said that on Dec 5th, 1941 a self-
appointed group of the members signed a letter
to Irma & mailed it 2 days before Pearl Harbor,
on that Friday, Dec 5th. Here is a copy of
the letter:

-------------------------

ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS
Post Office Box 607
Hollywood Station
Hollywood, California

December Fifth 1941

Irma Livoni
939 S. Gramercy Place
Los Angeles, California

Dear Mrs. Livoni:

At a meeting of the Executive Committee of the
Los Angeles Group of Alcoholics Anonymous,
held Dec. 4th, 1941, it was decided that your
attendance at group meetings was no longer
desired until certain explanations and plans
for the future were made to the satisfaction
of this committee. This action has been taken
for reasons which should be most apparent to
yourself. It was decided that, should you so
desire, you may appear before members of this
committee and state your attitude. This oppor-
tunity will be afforded you between now and
December 15th, 1941. You may communicate with
us at the above address by that date.

In case you do not wish to appear, we shall
consider the matter closed and that your
membership is terminated.

Alcoholics Anonymous, Los Angeles Group
Mortimer, Frank, Edmund, Fay D., Pete, Al

-------------------------

I was stunned. "How could they do this,
Sybil?"

"Because we didn't have any guidelines,
any traditions to protect us from good
intentions. AA was very new, and people
did all sorts of things, thinking they were
protecting the fellowship."

Sybil then said to close my eyes and imagine
my being in the following setting. Sybil
explained that Dec 7th, 1941 was Pearl Harbor
Day (a Sunday). She said that that Sunday
night everyone in LA was afraid that Los
Angeles would also be attacked and bombed.
There was a citywide blackout, people were so
terrified. She said that on Monday Dec 8th,
President Rosevelt gave the speech that
talked about "the date that will live in
infamy" and that we were now at war with
Japan and Germany.

She said, that was the day that Irma
received her letter. There was only one
meeting in the entire state of California
when Sybil came in, in 1941. By December
there may have been two or three, but Irma
had nowhere else to go, no one else to turn
to. No other Group in California that she
could ask for help.

Sybil said, "Imagine only one or two meetings
in your entire state, and being shunned by
your family, and by society, and by the
only group of people who were on your side,
your AA group. Imagine them shutting the door
on you and sending you such a letter, Matt."

I shivered at the thought of it. It was
Christmas time, the stores were decorated
and now poor Irma was all alone.

I thought about how it was in 1984 with
2000 meetings a week to choose from in
Southern California. and then I imagined
having no other help for a hopeless
alcoholic.

Sybil told me that Irma never came back to
another meeting, left AA and died of alcoholism.
She wrote to Bill about the incident, and I
cannot tell you that this is the reason that
the following is a part of the 3rd Tradition,
but it certainly seems to apply.

From Tradition 3, page 141:

-------------------------

... that we would neither punish nor deprive
any AA of membership, that we must never
compel anyone to pay anything, believe
anything, or conform to anything? The answer,
now seen in Tradition Three, was simplicity
itself. At last experience taught us that to
take away any alcoholic's full chance was
sometimes to pronounce his death sentence,
and often to condem him to endless misery.
Who dared to be judge, jury and executioner
of his own sick brother?"

-------------------------

JUDGE JURY AND EXECUTIONER

I remember looking at those words again and
again, and they seemed to get larger and
larger.

JUDGE JURY AND EXECUTIONER

JUDGE JURY AND EXECUTIONER

JUDGE JURY AND EXECUTIONER

I hadn't really noticed EXECUTIONER when I
had read it the first time at my 12 & 12
study group. Again I felt so bad for this
poor lady. Wow, those words really had a
different meaning than when I had read the
traditions before. So here it is, 23 years
later, and each December 7th & 8th, I always
think about Irma Livoni, and how lucky I am,
that we have traditions now. I also think of
how lucky I was to have met Sybil and so
lucky that she appointed herself my sponsor.

Years later I realized how everything she ever
taught me was like gold. But in 1984 I had no
idea who Sybil really was or how lucky I was
to have her as my sponsor. She was like a
piece of living history, but I really didn't
realize how valuable that was in explaining
WHY we do some of the things we do (like the
story she told me about how they never said
"Hi Sybil" and no one said "Hi my name is
Matt and I'm an alcoholic" back then).

Besides being one of the first women in AA,
Sybil was the first woman west of the Nissis-
sippi. She also became the head of LA's
central office for 12 years, and she became
close friends with Bill and Lois. She and
Bob even used to go on vacation with them.
She used to tell me all sorts of stories
about Bill Wilson and things he said to her.

He was very interested in how AA would work
for women, as there were very few women
worldwide in AA back in 1941. Marty Mann
came in before Sybil did, but very few
stayed sober.

I learned that night that no one can get kicked
out of AA. We can ask a disturbing wet drunk
that he needs to settle down or we might have
to ask him to step outside for that day, but
we don't vote to kick anyone out forever. And
we don't shun people because our guidelines,
our traditions tell us that no one has to
believe in anything (they don't have to be
like me) and they don't have to conform to
anything(they don't have to dress a certain
way, or have no facial hair, or pay anything).
Even if I get drunk again, I am still welcome
at any AA meeting.

So that's the story about Irma Livoni. Feel
free to pass this along to anyone you know
who might be interested in knowing a bit about
how and why the traditions got started. I
think it sort of puts a face on tradition 3:
the face of a woman I never knew, who got
kicked out of AA. Who got drunk and died.

Thank God for Tradition 3, and thank God for
all of you. I truly appreciate and cherish
all the people in this group.

Best AA love to you all.

"God hasn't promised us tomorrow,
but he has promised us eternity."

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++++Message 4846. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Irma Livoni -- first woman
kicked out of AA -- 1941
From: Chris Budnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/4/2008 7:30:00 PM

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This is wonderful. I had seen this letter
while touring the Akron Intergroup but couldn't
remember the woman's name or the exact wording
of the letter. I remember thinking how
foreign of a concept that someone could be
kicked out of AA. It helped put into context
my short years of recovery with what it was
like for members such as Irma before there
were the Traditions.

(1) Does anyone have information on why they
wrote: "This action has been taken for reasons
which should be most apparent to yourself."

(2) Does anyone know more specifics about
Irma - when she died etc.

(3) Also, is there any information about the
members who signed the letter (Mortimer, Frank,
Edmund, Fay D., Pete, Al)?

(4) I wonder if they remained members of
Alcoholics Anonymous and if their thoughts
about how they handled this situation changed
over the years?

Chris B.

Raleigh, NC

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++++Message 4847. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Sybil C. & Tex
From: tomper87 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/4/2008 4:35:00 PM

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"Debi Ubernosky" <dkuber1990@...> wrote:
> Howdy AA History Lovers,
>
> I'm curious about the reference to Sybil C's
> supposed hometown of Simians, Texas.

Hopefully this will not confuse the issue but
here is a possible explanation from a flyer of
one of Sybil's many AA talks. Her birth town
is here referred to as Semens, Texas. Also
very difficult to find this town in Texas.
My conclusion is that they are referring to
Simmons, Texas. The info was probably taken
from her talk and they did not get the spelling
correct. Hope this is helpful.

-Tom P.

- - - -

S Y B I L C O R W I N

Anniversary Meeting

Waterloo, Iowa

April 9, 1993

"A Timeless Staple on the AA Trail"

75 years Young at the time of this Talk!

Sybil was the first woman west of the Missis-
sippi River to get sober in AA. She mentions
that Marty Mann shared that honor on the East
Coast.

Her Sobriety Date is March 23, 1941. She had
been married five times. She introduces
herself at the beginning of her talk as Sybil
Doris Adams Stratton Hart Maxwell Willis
Corwin. She had just celebrated 42 years of
Sobriety at the time this talk took place.

Born in a lil' town of Semens Texas that had
a wooden school house. She tells of lovin'
that School House. Parents were religious and
thought of whiskey as Evil. Momma was nervous
and frightened and it rubbed off on her. A
scared child, she had no one to play with.
Started reading at four and learned by reading
off of a Biscuit Box on the kitchen table.

The family moved to Los Angeles and at 14 or
so she wanted to know what her Papa was talking
about when he spoke of whiskey so she drank a
whole bottle offered to her by her classmates.
Woke up in shame and remorse in her Momma's
bed. A dismal attempt to stop drinking proved
futile.

"I didn't want to behave like that"

Became defiant and Belligerent and she was
derailed at every turn.

First marriage to a Sailor produced one child.
Her only child.

Drinking out of control and more marriages
she at the end of her rope reads the article
in the Saturday Evening Post on March 1, 1941.

"A women drunk was beneath everything you can
think about"

Writing a letter to AA for help; she received
a return letter from Ruth Hock, AA's first
secretary. Ruth told her about a little group
of men meeting in Los Angeles.

This group was given a Red Big Book by Kay
Miller who migrated to LA from NY. Her husband
was in AA. She was not an Alcoholic but
started many meetings.

You will hear how Sybil recruited new Alcoholic
Women to come into the Program and she names
many of the old timers, including Cliff Walker
who became her Sponsor.

A unique sharing of the Steps comes at the
close of this great and history filled talk.

Sybil passed on April 29, 1998

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++++Message 4848. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Irma Livoni -- first woman
kicked out of AA -- 1941
From: Jim M . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/4/2008 10:50:00 PM

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Some time back (a few years) I was contacted
by an individual who I believe said was in the
posession of the original letter and thought
I would be interested in it.

If this is the case and is true the actual
date of the letter was December 6th, 1941.
You can view it here:

http://www.silkworth.net/aahistory/irmal1941.html

Jim

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++++Message 4849. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Irma Livoni & Sybil C threads
From: t . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/4/2008 11:37:00 PM

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some Grapevine info might be worth noting:

Grapevine article by Sybil C., February 1992,
"Learning to Fly"
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/1539

"What We Were Like, Fragments of AA History
(Los Angeles)" - Grapevine, June 1990 -
from a Series on AA history
http://silkworth.net/pdfhistory/What-We-Were-Like-Fragments-of-AA-History-Ju
n-19\

90.pdf [7]

"What We Were Like, The North Hollywood Group" -
Grapevine, May 1997 - Linda H., North Hollywood,
California
http://silkworth.net/pdfhistory/What-We-Were-Like-The-North-Hollywood-Group-
May-\

1997.pdf [8]

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++++Message 4850. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Sybil C. & Tex
From: tomper87 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/5/2008 10:42:00 AM

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After reading my own post I realized the
Waterloo Poster of Sybil's talk had at least
one error. She was 85 years young at the
time of this particular talk in 1993. OOPS!

-Tom P.

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++++Message 4851. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Sybil C. & Tex
From: charles Knapp . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/5/2008 1:10:00 AM

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Hello,

As a novice genealogist I checked the US
Census and found that in 1910 Sybil’s family
was living in Melrose, New Mexico and 1920 the
family was living in Wichita Texas.

Both censuses stated Sybil was born in New
Mexico. Since Sybil was born in 1908 and the
1910 census was taken in Melrose NM it is a
good chance she was born in New Mexico and
not in Texas. I Googled and couldn’t find a
Simians, New Mexico either. So not sure
what city she was actually born in.

I also discovered Sybil’s brother Tex's
full name was Herman Lafayette Adams. I have
2 different birth dates for him. On his
WWI draft registration it stated his birthday
as July 17, 1898, but his death certificate
states his birthday as October 19, 1898. He
died October 11, 1952.

Sybil also had another older brother, Clyde
Ernest Adams. He was born August 21, 1903
and died February 14, 1994. (Do not believe
he ever needed AA.)

I also have the exact date that Sybil died.
According the Social Security Death Index she
died April 29, 1998, not 1988.

I know this to be the correct year because I
went to her memorial service. I got sober in
1989 so it could not have been 1988.

Hope this helps,

Charles from California

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++++Message 4852. . . . . . . . . . . . AA Movie Preview
From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/4/2008 10:39:00 PM

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AA Movie PreviewCopy & paste this web address:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5aSR_8u1pE

- - - -

From the moderator: there is a cameo of
Ernie Kurtz about halfway through (among
other worthies who appear in this clip).

Glenn C.

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++++Message 4853. . . . . . . . . . . . Colliers Wood
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/6/2008 3:15:00 PM

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Every once in a while you come across
something that has been put together so
well, that you wish that people in other
parts of the world could just look at it,
to see if they could get some good
suggestions for doing things where they
live.

The Colliers Wood Design for Living AA Group
in London has put together a website

http://www.designforlivingaagroup.co.uk/

that struck me that way. It's put together
beautifully, it's got nice material on
sponsorship, the AA group, and AA literature,
and keeps things firmly grounded in AA's
historic heritage.

Glenn C.
Tuesday night group
Osceola, Indiana, USA

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++++Message 4854. . . . . . . . . . . . AA in the Arabian peninsula
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/6/2008 5:48:00 PM

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An article sent to us by "John Blair"
<jblair@wmis.net> (jblair at wmis.net)

Long due recognition: UAE's AA hero

by Derek Baldwin

(December 13, 2007)

http://www.xpress4me.com/news/uae/abudhabi/20004714.html

The founder of Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) in
the UAE [United Arab Emirates] has been
nationally feted for 30 years for helping
addicts find their lives again.

In his first public appearance, Tom L.,
64, was presented with an award this
week by the Emirate of Abu Dhabi National
Rehabilitation Centre.

After years of selfless service, it is the
only time that Tom has agreed to be
photographed and identified.

In contrast to a time when a small group met
quietly to respect Muslim views about alcohol,
the centre has recognised Tom and AA for
"continuous outstanding contribution towards
recovery".

The well-attended awards ceremony was a bit
overwhelming for a man who once struggled
heavily with the bottle to the point that he
lost his job, his family and friends in the
late 1960s in India.

"It came to a point where I was living in the
streets in Mumbai. I was 26 and didn’t have
any hope," he said in an interview with
XPRESS. "Then one day I had a spiritual
awakening."

On July 20, 1970, Tom attended an AA meeting
and his life was transformed forever thanks
to the 12-Step Programme and a new relation-
ship with his "higher power".

In 1975, he moved to Abu Dhabi as a labourer
and two years later, he founded the very
first AA meeting in a small room in Deira.

"There was a need for this meeting for myself
and for others as well," he said, seated in
his spacious villa.

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++++Message 4855. . . . . . . . . . . . Member introduction and group
response
From: grault . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/8/2008 7:30:00 AM

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Does anyone know the origins of the custom of
members sharing at meetings to introduce
themselves: "I'm xxx and I'm an alcoholic" or
the (much later, I believe) practice of the
group's response: "Hi, xxx"?

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++++Message 4856. . . . . . . . . . . . Preserving archival materials
From: LouPetrosino . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/9/2008 12:13:00 PM

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I have a question about preserving magazines,
printed material and letters. I have been
using 100% virgin polyethylene magazine bags;
how do these compare to mylar bags? Is there
a preference between the two? Is 100% virgin
important?

Using the large polyethylene bags that I do
have, it's a very tight fit for our older
Saturday Evening Posts. Has anyone else had a
problem like this? Anyone have a good source
for bags? I have been using the large, 10 7/8
x 14 1/4, from Bags Unlimited - they are
supposed to fit Life, Look, Saturday Evening
Post but seem a tad small.

I have also been using acid-free board to
help stiffen the magazines, is that a good
practice?

Thanks for any help you can give.

Lou

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++++Message 4857. . . . . . . . . . . . Tom Powers and Betty Love
From: Peter Tippett . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/6/2008 6:45:00 PM

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Can/would someone clarify for me the role Tom
Powers and Betty Love played in the writing of
the 12x12, please?

Thanks,
Pete Tippett

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++++Message 4858. . . . . . . . . . . . Sybil C. & Tex
From: erb2b . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/6/2008 10:48:00 PM

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HI .. I have a good friend in Sybils daughter.
I have been sending her copies of the informa-
tion in here about her mother. Shes has
replied so far with this:

My mother was born in Simmons not Simions
according to her (Sybil). And yes, she passed
away April 29, 1998.

I will send futher information thru here
to her if you have questions you may want
answered.

Trudging in Peace!!! Corey F.
<erb2b@yahoo.com> (erb2b at yahoo.com)

- - - -

Charles Knapp <cdknapp@...> wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> As a novice genealogist I checked the US
> Census and found that in 1910 Sybil's family
> was living in Melrose, New Mexico and 1920 the
> family was living in Wichita Texas.
>
> Both censuses stated Sybil was born in New
> Mexico. Since Sybil was born in 1908 and the
> 1910 census was taken in Melrose NM it is a
> good chance she was born in New Mexico and
> not in Texas. I Googled and couldn't find a
> Simians, New Mexico either. So not sure
> what city she was actually born in.
>
> I also discovered Sybil's brother Tex's
> full name was Herman Lafayette Adams. I have
> 2 different birth dates for him. On his
> WWI draft registration it stated his birthday
> as July 17, 1898, but his death certificate
> states his birthday as October 19, 1898. He
> died October 11, 1952.
>
> Sybil also had another older brother, Clyde
> Ernest Adams. He was born August 21, 1903
> and died February 14, 1994. (Do not believe
> he ever needed AA.)
>
> I also have the exact date that Sybil died.
> According the Social Security Death Index she
> died April 29, 1998, not 1988.
>
> I know this to be the correct year because I
> went to her memorial service. I got sober in
> 1989 so it could not have been 1988.
>
> Hope this helps,
>
> Charles from California

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++++Message 4859. . . . . . . . . . . . Rensselaer, Indiana, AA Retreat
From: arcchi88 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/7/2008 10:13:00 AM

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I was wondering if anyone has any history on
a retreat that is held annually at St. Joseph's
College in Rensselaer, Indiana.

There have got to be some people who have
attended in years past who can tell a story
or two!!!

If you have ever attended this retreat and
have a story to tell, big or small, please
pass it on!

Thanks!

Tom C.

- - - -

From the moderator, Glenn C.
(South Bend, Indiana):

My first reaction was to assume that you
knew how the first AA retreats were held
there, but then I realized that you might not.
They were an important part of early AA
history however.

http://hindsfoot.org/archives.html

RALPH PFAU wrote the Golden Books under the
pen name of Father John Doe, to preserve his
anonymity. The twelfth step says "(a) Having
had a spiritual awakening as the result of
these steps, we tried (b) to carry this
message to alcoholics, and (c) to practice
these principles in all our affairs." The
Golden Books tell us how to do the last part,
that is, how to bring the principles of the
program to bear on our daily lives in the
world, how to make decisions in the real
world, and how to keep our minds and spirits
on an even keel amidst the storms and stresses
of everyday life.

Ralph Pfau was a priest in Indianapolis,
Indiana, the first Roman Catholic priest to
get sober in the A.A. program. On November 10,
1943, he telephoned Doherty Sheerin, who had
started the first A.A. group in that city on
October 28, 1940. Dohr became his sponsor,
and Ralph never drank again.

In June 1947, Ralph conducted a weekend
spiritual retreat for A.A. members (70% of
them Protestants) at St. Joseph’s College at
Rensselaer, Indiana, and gave the attendees
(as a souvenir) a little pamphlet with a
cover made of gold foil, called the "Spiritual
Side," containing the short talks he had given
to start up the various group discussion
sessions. Afterwards, people began asking for
extra copies to give to their A.A. friends.

Between then and 1964, Ralph put together
fourteen of these little "Golden Books," based
on his talks at A.A. spiritual retreats which
he was now giving all over the U.S. and Canada.

- - - -

http://hindsfoot.org/pflou3.html

When Ralph had been sober for a year and a
half or so, he began to feel frustrated about
one thing. When he went out on twelve step
calls, drunks would not accept anything he
told them, because he was a priest, and they
thought he was just preaching the old moral
condemnation line at them. He talked about it
with Dohr several times, and Dohr told Ralph
that he knew he had special things to give to
the program, and the only problem was to
discover what it was that God needed him to
do. When the solution finally came, Ralph
said, “the answer was so obvious that I felt
foolish because I hadn’t thought of it sooner.”
It was a regular practice in the Catholic
church to have spiritual retreats, where a
retreat director gave talks on Catholic belief
and practice, interspersed with periods when
people could ask questions, and periods for
group discussion sessions, and some free
periods also just for rest and quiet medita-
tion. Catholics had always found that they
could derive great spiritual benefits from
these retreats.

Ralph decided to run a trial experiment by
trying just a simple one-day retreat. He held
it at the Little Sisters of the Poor, starting
after church on Sunday, and running through
till dinner-time in the evening. This was
probably somewhere in the latter part of 1945.
It was a totally novel experience for him.
There was no preaching on Catholic dogma,
because everything was centered purely on A.A.
principles and beliefs. But more importantly,
only twenty of the sixty-seven men who came
were Catholics -- the other 70% all came from
Protestant backgrounds.

The experiment was so successful, that Ralph
decided to try a full weekend retreat, so in
early April of 1946 he wrote to St. Joseph’s
College at Rensselaer, Indiana, and they
finally agreed to let him use their buildings
during their summer vacation, in June of 1946.
This was the first weekend-long spiritual
retreat ever held in Alcoholics Anonymous.
Rensselaer was up in the northwestern corner
of Indiana, an area of the state with which
Ralph was not nearly so familiar. This
weekend affair was again a rousing success.

His theme for this retreat was “The Spiritual
Side of Alcoholics Anonymous,” which went over
so well that he gave the same talk at all the
retreats he conducted over the next year, and
finally put it out on a recording. This was
the first of what was eventually a set of
thirty phonograph records which took his
voice to A.A. people all over the United
States. And this was also where the Golden
Books began.

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++++Message 4860. . . . . . . . . . . . L J Knisely living at 855 Ardmore in
1950?
From: shakey1aa . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/8/2008 1:37:00 PM

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In the 1950 City Directory of Akron, I see
Dr. R H Smith as owner of 855 Ardmore Ave and
a phone number of UN-2436.

I also have a listing at the address for a
person named L J Knisely.

Was this person a relative of the Smith's or
perhaps a live-in nurse or just a boarder?
Does any one have any knowledge of this person?

Yours in Service
Shakey Mike Gwirtz
See you in Niagara Falls NY Sept 11-14 2008

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++++Message 4861. . . . . . . . . . . . Father Martin''s health?
From: jm48301 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/9/2008 4:53:00 PM

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On Jan. 16,it was reported (Message 4799) that
Father Martin had suffered a heart attack.

Has he recovered? My question relates to an
extraordinary figure in "AA History."

Thank you.

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++++Message 4862. . . . . . . . . . . . Lavelle or Lovell J. K., 855 Ardmore
From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/9/2008 8:31:00 PM

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The L. J. K. whom Shakey found at 855 Ardmore
in 1950 is the Lavelle K. (of Lavelle and
Emma K.) who lived there and took care of
Dr. Bob.

The two signatures I have seen of Lovell show
his name spelled that way (he was btw born in
1890 and in 1942 was living in Kent OH), but
in DR BOB AND THE GOOD OLD TIMERS (pp. 17,
272, 289, 317-318, 329-330, 333, 339-343)
it is spelled Lavelle. His middle name was
Joyce.

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++++Message 4863. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Tom Powers and Betty Love
From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/9/2008 5:19:00 PM

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Hi Pete,

I don't know anything about Betty Love, but
Tom Powers told me in a telephone interview
that he helped Bill with the 12 & 12, though
apparently without making major changes in
Bill's writing style (which Powers called
Elizabethan).

Jack Alexander, author of the breakthrough
Saturday Evening Post story about AA, also
put some finishing touches on the book,
according to Bill.

In my own opinion, the book reflects the same
style we see in Bill's other writings, so I
feel it's largely his. I think Powers and
others probably made only minor corrections
and changes.

Mel Barger

Mel
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mel Barger
melb@accesstoledo.com

----- Original Message -----
From: Peter Tippett
To: AA History Buffs
Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 6:45 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Tom Powers and Betty Love

Can/would someone clarify for me the role Tom
Powers and Betty Love played in the writing of
the 12x12, please?

Thanks,
Pete Tippett

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++++Message 4864. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Father Martin''s health?
From: oldsmokef . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/10/2008 6:00:00 PM

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There is a place on this website where people
can click for an update on Father Joseph C.
Martin's health condition:

http://www.fathermartinsashley.com/index.htm

http://www.fathermartinsashley.com/interior.php?section=News&subsection=Fath
erMa\

rtinUpdate [9]

- - - -

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,
"jm48301" <jm48301@...> wrote:
>
> On Jan. 16,it was reported (Message 4799) that
> Father Martin had suffered a heart attack.
>
> Has he recovered? My question relates to an
> extraordinary figure in "AA History."
>
> Thank you.
>

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++++Message 4865. . . . . . . . . . . . AA in Vladivostok
From: robin_foote . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/10/2008 7:17:00 AM

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Anonymous Alcoholics Will Gather in Vladivostok

This public association is a part of the World
community of anonymous alcoholics, which was
founded in 1935 in the USA

VLADIVOSTOK, February 10, vladivostoktimes.com
The self-help society of anonymous alcoholics
of Vladivostok "Welcome" celebrates its 15th
anniversary, the newspaper "Vladivostok"
writes.

The celebration of the anniversary and intro-
ducing the society will be held on Saturday at
noon in the Primorye State Arsenyev museum.

This public association is a part of the World
community of anonymous alcoholics, which was
founded in 1935 in the USA. Welcome members
are trained on the program "12 steps."

Every person can apply with his problem to
this association and get a free advice. In
these years thousands of Primorye residents
have found support. Everyone who came with
his own trouble could see that he is not lone
in this world. The trainings are held not only
with those who are tired of taking alcohol
or drugs, but also with their relatives.

"Unfortunately, not everyone is ready to refuse
of his destructive vices," one of the members
of the group of self-help of anonymous
alcoholics Sergey YAKOVLEV claims. "But it
is never late to do the first step."

http://vladivostoktimes.ru/show.php?id=21451

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++++Message 4866. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Preserving archival materials -
magazines
From: Mike Breedlove . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/9/2008 5:55:00 PM

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Lou,

Let me first mention the COOL, Conservation
online site at - http://palimpsest.stanford.edu/
This site is always a good place to start with
conservation questions.

Another good place is the Library of Congress
web page - http://www.loc.gov/preserv/ There
are many others.

The three appropriate plastics (of which I am
aware) to use to create a clear bag for a
magazine (or any other paper product) are
polyester, polypropylene, and polyethylene.
Polyester, or Mylar-D, is by its nature is
both clearer and stiffer than polypropylene,
which is somewhat clearer and stiffer than
polyethylene. So the short answer to your
question is that polyester is the best material
to us to make a "bag" for a magazine. A 2 mil
(.002) thickness polyester would be sufficient
to support the weight of the magazine unless
the magazine is particularly thick, in which
case a 3 mil would suffice. Given the reality
of cost issues, neither polyester nor polypro-
pylene is that much superior to polyethylene,
particularly if the magazine is kept in the
dark.

A couple of other facts also need to be
mentioned. Even using a bag, one should be
careful to limit handling and display. Also,
the magazine should not be sealed airtight in
the bag, as paper slowly degrades on its own.
Sealing the paper in a bag creates an ever
more acidic environment for the paper. So in
the bag one should leave at least a small
opening on one or two ends to allow a minimal
air flow. Also, if staples are used in the
magazine, please remove them carefully before
placing the magazine in the bag. The metal
staples react with the paper, accelerating
the acidification process.

Particularly with a polyethylene bag using an
acid-free, lignin-free backing board to add
stiffness is very helpful in the case of
handling or display. The one cautionary note
is that if the bag is too tight or small,
that does in fact add physical stress to the
magazine that is not helpful. It would be
better to use an oversized bag and be careful
in handling the magazine that to stuff the
magazine in too small a bag. Hope this is
helpful.

I would suggest that if anyone has more specific
questions about preserving magazines, please
respond to me at my email, mikeb415@knology.net
(mikeb415 at knology.net) rather than to the
entire list. Any questions beyond my expertise
(likely) I will try to help refer to a more
learned person.

Yours in service, Mike B,
Area One Archivist

- - - -

From: lqd8rflp@aol.com (lqd8rflp at aol.com)

Try http://www.uniline.com -- they carry all
kinds of hard to find bags, supplies, etc.

Regards,

John Hager

DOS--2/29/88

- - - -

----- Original Message -----
From: LouPetrosino
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2008 11:13 AM
Subject: [SPAM] [AAHistoryLovers] Preserving archival materials

I have a question about preserving magazines,
printed material and letters. I have been
using 100% virgin polyethylene magazine bags;
how do these compare to mylar bags? Is there
a preference between the two? Is 100% virgin
important?

Using the large polyethylene bags that I do
have, it's a very tight fit for our older
Saturday Evening Posts. Has anyone else had a
problem like this? Anyone have a good source
for bags? I have been using the large, 10 7/8
x 14 1/4, from Bags Unlimited - they are
supposed to fit Life, Look, Saturday Evening
Post but seem a tad small.

I have also been using acid-free board to
help stiffen the magazines, is that a good
practice?

Thanks for any help you can give.

Lou

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 4867. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Member introduction and group
response
From: James Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/9/2008 6:32:00 PM

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Does anyone know the origins of the custom
of members sharing at meetings to introduce
themselves: "I'm xxx and I'm an alcoholic"

Open meetings in the early years of AA were
public meetings. I'm from Montreal and the
combined groups used to put on a "Public
Meeting" once a month. The speakers were
usually doctors, wardens, social workers and
an AA member who identified himself as an
alcoholic. These meetings were given a
lot of publicity in local papers and radio.

Public meeting carried on into the early 60's
at which time they became part of the Area
Conference and the public stopped coming.

I have 90 tapes of Bill Wilson and not once
in any of his AA talks does he ever introduce
himself as an alcoholic.

Jim

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++++Message 4868. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: L J Knisely living at 855
Ardmore in 1950?
From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/10/2008 1:34:00 AM

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Hi Mike,

Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers shows that a
couple named Emma and Lavelle K. came to live
with Dr. Bob in his last months. These must
be the Kniselys.

What follows is the Dr. Bob story from the
January 1951 Grapevine. Only Emma is mentioned
by name.

Mel Barger

January 1951
Vol. 7 No. 8
Without Heroics. . .As He Would Wish It, This Is the Story Of Dr. Bob the
Physician Whose 'Practice' Reached Half Across the world. . .
Dr. Bob was born August 8, 1879, in St. Johnsbury, Vermont, a typical New
England village of some 7000 souls. As the only son of parents prominent in
civic and church activities, his early childhood was spent under strict
parental
guidance.

Signs of inner revolt came at an early age. In later years the doctor
liked to tell his children, Sue and Robert, of how he was put to bed every
evening at five o'clock. He would go quietly enough, a fact which might have
led
the modern child-psychology-wise parent to suspect the worst, but which
seemingly went unnoticed by the young man's parents. As soon as he was
reasonably sure that he was considered safely asleep, he would arise, dress
and
slip quietly downstairs and out the back door to join his village gang. So
far
as is known he was never apprehended while on his nocturnal expeditions.

The call of the woodland trail was far more fascinating to young Rob, as
his schoolmates called him, than the stuffy schoolhouse to which he was
forced
to make his reluctant way each morning. His active young mind was more apt
to be
concentrating upon the best method to trap a bear than on the dull drone of
his
teacher's voice. He wanted to be free to roam. Rebellion surged within him
at
the thought of restraint of any sort. . .study and home-work were "musts". .
.even the keenness of his youthful mind was not enough to make up for his
lack
of application to his daily lessons. Serious repercussions often followed
which
led to accusations of "waywardness" by his parents and his teachers.

Though his scholastic neglect may have disgraced him with his elders upon
occasion, his schoolmates loved him. Whether it was because his habitual and
sometimes adventurous revolts against restraint gave him a glamorous aura or
because of the accuracy with which children often sense traits of character
obscure to adults, they made him a popular and sought-after member of their
class.

Freedom from some of the "musts" came with vacations. He was released,
then, to wander the hills, hunt, and trap and swim in the sea. Often Rob and
his
friends went into Canada on hunting trips. On one of these forays into the
wilds, hunting was so poor that the boys lived on eels, blueberries and
cream of
tartar biscuits for three weeks. They did flush a particularly large
woodchuck.
They stalked him for several hours. Finally they had him within shooting
range.

After being shot at for sometime, the woodchuck disappeared. This episode
later caused Rob's father, the Judge, to remark that the woodchuck probably
went
in to get out of the noise.

The incident of the woodchuck and a tale of a great bear chase cast some
shadow of doubt on young Rob's prowess as a hunter and woodsman. Off to the
woods one day, went the young hunter and a schoolmate. The boys sauntered
along,
kicking at stones. . .building castles in the air. . .talking about the
things
that spirited adolescent males talk about. Suddenly they saw before them a
huge
bear. The bear, who was probably as astonished as the boys, took to the
woods at
a gallop. The young hunters were hard at his heels. The day was hot, the
brambles thick, courageous daring was at its height. . .the bear got away.
"I
don't believe," Dr. Bob used to say, "that we ran as fast as we might have!"

In the summers the family often spent some weeks in a cottage by the sea.
Here Rob became an expert swimmer. He and his foster sister, Nancy, spent
many
hours building and sailing their own sailboats. It was here that he saved a
young girl from drowning. This event must have left an impression. .
.probably
of the advisability for every child to learn to swim at an early age. He
taught
his own children, Robert R. and Sue, to be expert swimmers at the age of
five.
The three of them would set out every vacation morning to swim the channel
near
their cottage. This feat often caused distraught neighbors to call their
mother
to tell her that her babies had fallen out of a boat in the middle of the
channel.

While the boy, Rob, was high-spirited, considered rebellious and wayward
he was industrious and labored long and hard at anything he wanted to do. He
was
still very young when it became apparent that he was ambitious as well as
willing to work. He wanted, above all else, to become a medical doctor like
his
maternal grandfather.

When he was about nine years old he began to show signs of liking to work,
especially out of doors. That summer he was at a neighbor's farm helping the
men
load hay. Perhaps he was resting, perhaps he was prowling around poking
under
bushes to see what he could see. . .he saw a jug. . .he pulled the cork and
sniffed. It was a new odor to this son of strict New England parents. It was
an
odor that he liked. If the stuff in the jug smelled so good, it should taste
good too. And it was good. He liked the taste. He liked the way it made him
feel. A little boy; a jug of hooch; the first securely welded link in the
chain.

By the time he reached his teens, Rob was spending parts of his summers
working on a Vermont farm or juggling trays and lugging baggage as a bellhop
in
an Adirondack summer hotel. His winters were passed trying to avoid the
necessity of having to attend high school in order to receive a diploma. It
may
have been during his high school days that young Rob learned much of what
there
is to know about a billiard table. Later when his son, Robert, would tease
him
about this accomplishment as being the product of a mis-spent youth, Dr. Bob
would just smile and say nothing. He was a good student in spite of himself
and
graduated from St. Johnsbury Academy in 1898.

It was at a party given at the Academy that Dr. Bob first met Anne. A
student at Wellesley, she was spending a holiday with a college chum. It was
a
small, reserved girl whom the tall, rangy Rob met that night. With an agile
mind
to match his own, Anne had a cheerfulness, sweetness and calm that was to
remain
with her through the years. It was these same qualities that were in the
future
to endear her to hundreds as Anne, Dr. Bob's wife.

After high school at St. Johnsbury Academy came four years of college at
Dartmouth. At long last the rebellious young colt was free of his parents
restraining supervision. New experiences were to be explored and enjoyed
without
having to give an accounting.

His first discovery in his search for the facts of life on the campus was
that joining the boys for a brew seemed to make up the greater part of
after-class recreation. From Dr. Bob's point of view it was the major
extra-curricular activity. It had long been evident that whatever Rob did,
he
did well. He became a leader in the sport. He drank for the sheer fun of it
and
suffered little or no ill-effects.

Fame came to him at Dartmouth--no accolades for scholarship. . .no letters
for athletic prowess. . .his fame came for a capacity for drinking beer that
was
matched by few and topped by none. . .and for what the students called his
"patent throat." They would stand in awe watching him consume an entire
bottle
of beer without any visible muscular movement of swallowing.

The prospects of getting drunk in the evening furnished Rob and his
cronies with conversations which ran on all day. The pros and cons of
whether to
get drunk or not to get drunk would invariably drive one of their
mild-mannered
friends to distraction. He would rise in spluttering protest to say, "Well!
If I
were going to get drunk, I'd be about it!"

As often as not. . .they were about it. There were times, though, when a
change of scenery seemed more to their liking. Like the time Rob and a
friend
got it into their heads that going to Montpelier, Vermont was a fine idea.
Admiral Dewey had just returned from Manila and was to parade through the
town.
Being in the usual state of financial embarrassment, how to get there caused
a
fleeting problem, but being convinced that where there was a will, a way
would
certainly present itself, they hopped a freight. In the morning weary but
mightily pleased with themselves, they descended from the boxcar in
Montpelier.
As they walked up the street toward the parade route they met a fellow
Dartmouth
student. The boys greeted him with as much dignity as their grimy faces and
straw-flecked garments would allow. To their astonishment his "Hello" was
most
cordial. Wouldn't they like to go to the State House with him? There, from
the
reviewing stand, the boys viewed the parade with their Dartmouth friend,
whose
father was the Governor of Vermont.

Through the carefree days at college he studied just about as much as he
had to, to get by. But he was a good student none-the-less. Here he made
friends
whom he was to know and to see from time to time through his life. .
.friends
who did not always approve of his drinking prowess, but loved him in spite
of
it.

His last years at Dartmouth were spent doing exactly what he wanted to do
with little thought of the wishes or feelings of others. . .a state of mind
which became more and more predominate as the years passed. Rob graduated in
1902. . ."summa cum laude" in the eyes of the drinking fraternity. The dean
had
a somewhat lower estimate.

Now that he held a Dartmouth diploma, it seemed advisable that the willful
young man settle down to making a living and a solid, secure future for
himself.
He wasn't ready to settle down to a job. The strong desire to become a
medical
doctor was still with him. His mother, who had never approved of this career
for
her son, hadn't altered her views. He went to work.

For the next three years his business career was varied, if not
successful. The first two years he worked for a large scale company; then he
went to Montreal where he labored diligently at selling railway supplies,
gas
engines of all sorts and many other items of heavy hardware. He left
Montreal
and went to Boston where he was employed at Filene's. What his duties were
there, have never been recorded.

All through this three year period he was drinking as much as purse
allowed, still without getting into any serious trouble. But he wasn't
making
any headway either. Whatever his duties at Filene's were, they certainly
were
not what he wanted to do. He still wanted to be a doctor. It was time he was
about it. He quit his job at the store and that Fall entered the University
of
Michigan as a premedical student.

Again he was free of all restraint and doing just as he wanted to do.
Earnestly, he got down to serious business. . .the serious business of
drinking
as much as he could and still make it to class in the morning. His famous
capacity for beer followed him to the Michigan campus. He was elected to
membership in the drinking fraternity. Once again he displayed the wonders
of
his "patent throat" before his gaping brothers.

He, who had boasted to his friends. . ."Never had a hangover in my life. .
.began to have the morning after shakes. Many a morning Dr. Bob went to
classes
and even though fully prepared, turned away at the door and went back to the
fraternity house. So bad were his jitters that he feared he would cause a
scene
if he should be called on.

He went from bad to worse. No longer drinking for the fun of it, his life
at Michigan became one long binge after another. In the Spring of his
Sophomore
year, Dr. Bob made up his mind that he could not complete his course. He
packed
his grip and headed South.

After a month spent on a large farm owned by a friend, the fog began to
clear from his brain. As he began to think more clearly he realized that it
was
very foolish to quit school. He decided to return and continue his work.

The faculty had other ideas on the subject. They were, they told him,
completely disgusted. It would require no effort at all to get along without
his
presence on the Michigan campus. After a long argument they allowed him to
return to take his exams. He passed them creditably. After many more painful
discussions, the faculty also gave him his credits.

That Fall he entered Brush University as a Junior. Here his drinking
became so much worse that his fraternity brothers felt forced to send for
his
father. The Judge made the long journey in a vain effort to get him
straightened
out.

After those long disastrous binges when Dr. Bob was forced to face his
father he had a deep feeling of guilt. His father always met the situation
quietly, "Well, what did this one cost you?" he would ask. Oddly enough this
feeling of guilt would come, not because he felt that he had hurt him in any
way, but because his father seemed, somehow, to understand. It was this
quiet,
hopeless understanding that pained him deep inside.

He was drinking more and more hard liquor, now, and coming up to his final
exams he went on a particularly rough binge. When he went in to the
examinations
his hand trembled so badly he could not hold a pencil. He was, of course,
called
before the faculty. Their decision was that if he wished to graduate he must
come back for two more quarters, remaining absolutely dry. This he was able
to
do. The faculty considered his work so creditable he was able to secure a
much
coveted internship in City Hospital in Akron, Ohio.

The first two years in Akron, as a young interne, were free of trouble.
Hard work took the place of hard drinking simply because there wasn't time
for
both. At one time during his internship he ran the hospital pharmacy by
himself.
This added to other duties took him all over the hospital. . .running up and
down the stairs because the elevators were too slow. . .running here,
rushing
there as if the devil were after him. All this frenzied activity never
failed to
bring about an explosive, "Now where is that cadaverous young Yankee!" from
one
of the older doctors who became particularly fond of him.

Though the two years as interne at City were hectic, Dr. Bob had time to
learn much from the older men who were glad to share their knowledge with
him.
He began to perfect his own skills so that he might become a specialist, a
surgeon.

When his two years of internship were over he opened an office in The
Second National Bank Building, in Akron. This was in 1912. His offices were
in
the same building until he retired from practice in 1948.

Completely out on his own now, and again free to do as he chose--some
money in his pocket and all the time in the world. It may have been that
reaction set in from all the work, the irregular hours, the hectic life of
an
interne; it may have been real or imagined; whatever caused it, Dr. Bob
developed considerable stomach trouble. The remedy for that was, of course,
a
couple of drinks. It didn't take him long to return to the old drinking
habits.

Now he began to know the real horror, the suffering of pain that goes with
alcoholism. In hope of relief, he incarcerated himself at least a dozen
times in
one of the local sanitariums. After three years of this torture he ended up
in a
local hospital where they tried to help him. But he got his friends to
smuggle
him in a quart. Or, if that failed, it wasn't difficult for a man who knew
his
way around a hospital to steal the alcohol kept in the building. He got
rapidly
worse.

Finally his father had to send a doctor out from St. Johnsbury to attempt
to get him home. Somehow the doctor managed to get him back to the house he
was
born in, where he stayed in bed for two months before he could venture out.
He
stayed around town for about two months more, then returned to Akron to
resume
his practice. Dr. Bob was thoroughly scared, either by what had happened, by
what the doctor had told him, or both. He went into one of his dry periods
and
stayed that way until the 18th Amendment was passed.

In 1915 he went back to Chicago to marry Anne. He brought her back to
Akron as his bride. The first three years of their married life were free of
the
unhappiness that was to come later. He became established in his practice.
Their
son Robert was born and life began to make a sensible pattern. Then the 18th
Amendment was passed.

Dr. Bob's reasoning was quite typical at this time, if not quite logical.
It would make very little difference if he did take a few drinks now. The
liquor
that he and his friends had bought in amounts according to the size of their
bank accounts, would soon be gone. He could come to no harm. He was soon to
learn the facts of the Great American Experiment.

The government obligingly made it possible for doctors to obtain unlimited
supplies of liquor. Often during those black years, Dr. Bob, who held his
profession sacred, would go to the phone book, pick out a name at random and
fill out the prescription which would get him a pint of whisky.

When all else failed there was the newly accredited member of American
society, the bootlegger. A moderate beginning led to Dr. Bob's usual ending.

During the next few years, he developed two distinct phobias. One was the
fear of not sleeping and the other was the fear of running out of liquor. So
began the squirrel-cage existence. Staying sober to earn enough money to get
drunk. . .getting drunk to go to sleep. . .using sedatives to quiet the
jitters.
. .staying sober. . .earning money. . .getting drunk. . .smuggling home a
bottle. . .hiding the bottle from Anne who became an expert at detecting
hiding
places

This horrible nightmare went on for seventeen years. Somehow he had the
good sense to stay away from the hospital and not to receive patients if he
were
drinking. He stayed sober every day until four o'clock, then came home. In
this
way he was able to keep his drinking problem from becoming common knowledge
or
hospital gossip.

Through these mad years Dr. Bob was an active member of the City Hospital
Staff and often he had occasion to go to St. Thomas Hospital, where in 1934,
he
became a member of the Courtesy Staff and in 1943, a member of the Active
Staff.
It was during one of these visits to St. Thomas, in 1928, that in the course
of
his duties, he met Sister Mary Ignatia.

The meeting seemed of no particular consequence at the time. Many Sisters
came to St. Thomas, then departed for duties elsewhere. Though neither of
them
knew it, the meeting was to have great importance to them both in the years
to
come. Sister Ignatia, like the others, never knew of the inner turmoil with
which this man was beset. . ."He just always seemed different than the rest.
.
.he brought something with him when he came into a room. . .I never knew
what it
was, I just felt it. . ."

So perhaps it was, then, that the Hand that moves us all was beginning to
speed up the events that led to Dr. Bob's meeting with the stranger.

Anne and the children now lived in a shambles of broken promises, given in
all sincerity. Unable to see her friends, she existed on the bare
necessities.
About all she had left was her faith that her prayers for her husband would
somehow be answered.

It then happened that Dr. Bob and Anne were thrown in with a crowd of
people who attracted Dr. Bob because of their poise, health and happiness.
These
people spoke without embarrassment, a thing he could never do. They all
seemed
very much at ease. Above all, they seemed happy. They were members of the
Oxford
Group.

Self conscious, ill at ease most of the time, his health nearing the
breaking point, Dr. Bob was thoroughly miserable. He sensed that these
new-found
friends had something that he did not have. He felt that he could profit
from
them.

When he learned that what they had was something of a spiritual nature,
his enthusiasm was somewhat dampened. Unfortunately his childhood background
of
church twice during the week and three times on Sunday had caused him to
resolve
that he would never appear in a church so long as he lived. He kept that
resolve
for 40 years except when his presence there was absolutely necessary. It
helped
some to find out that these people did not gather in a church but at each
other's homes.

That they might have the answer to his drinking problem never entered his
head but he thought it could do him no harm to study their philosophy. For
the
next two and one half years he attended their meetings. And got drunk
regularly!

Anne became deeply interested in the group and her interest sustained Dr.
Bob's. He delved into religious philosophy, he read the Scriptures, he
studied
spiritual interpretations, the lives of the Saints. Like a sponge he soaked
up
the spiritual philosophies of the ages. Anne kept her simple faith in
prayer. .
.and her courage--Dr. Bob got drunk.

Then one Saturday afternoon, Henrietta called Anne. Could they come over
to meet a friend of hers who might help Bob. . .

At five o'clock Sunday evening they were at Henrietta's door. Dr. Bob
faced Bill W. who said, "You must be awfully thirsty. . .this won't take us
long. . ."

From the moment Bill spoke to him, Dr. Bob knew that here was a man who
knew what he was talking about. As the hours passed, Bill told of his
experiences with alcohol; he told him of the simple message that a friend
had
brought. . . "Show me your faith and by my works I will show you mine. . ."

Slowly, at first, then with sudden clarity, Dr. Bob began to understand.
Bill had been able to control his drinking problem by the very means that
Dr.
Bob, himself had been trying to use. . .but there was a difference. The
spiritual approach was as useless as any other if you soaked it up like a
sponge
and kept it all to yourself. True, Bill had been preaching his message at
any
drunk who would listen; he had been unsuccessful 'til now, but the important
thing was that by giving his knowledge away, he, himself, was sober!

There was one more short binge for Dr. Bob after that talk. On June 10,
1935, he took his last drink. It was high time now to put his house in
order.
With his quiet professional dignity, his ready humor, he got about it.

Bill stayed on in Akron for several months, living with Dr. Bob and Anne.
It wasn't long before they realized that they needed another drunk to help,
if
they could. The two men went over to City Hospital. They asked the nurse on
"admitting" if she had an alcoholic in the hospital. They were taken to a
room
where a man lay strapped to the bed, writhing in agony, "Will this one do?"
the
nurse asked. "This one" would do very well. That human wreck to whom they
talked
that day and several times after, came out of the hospital, sober. Bill D.
became the third member of the little group. . .AA Number Three!

Dr. Bob now was a man with a purpose and the will to live. When the fog
cleared out of his brain, his health had improved. He felt so good in the
summer
of 1935, at 56 years of age, that he took Bob and Sue out to the tennis
courts
one day. He played them six straight sets of tennis. The kids were done in.

Anne began to live again, too. She was happy with her husband's new-found,
joyful sobriety. She was no longer friendless, alone. Her kitchen table was
almost always littered with coffee cups, a fresh pot-full sat waiting on the
stove. Her faith, her belief in prayer and divine guidance went far to carry
the
men through that first summer.

In the year 1935, there were few men alive who would accept the fact that
alcoholism is a disease, which should be treated as such. Prejudice and
ignorance were some of the problems facing Dr. Bob as he set about helping
sick
alcoholics with his professional skill and his new-found spiritual
understanding. City Hospital was often filled with drunks smuggled in under
trumped-up diagnosis. The old-timers who were hospitalized during those
first
years were admitted as suffering from "acute gastritis."

Since he was on the courtesy staff at St. Thomas, run by the Sisters of
Charity of St. Augustine, Dr. Bob felt that he might enlist the help of
Sister
Ignatia. He knew that it had never seemed right to her that a drunk should
be
turned away. She couldn't understand why a drunk on the verge of DT's was
turned
away but a drunk with a bashed-in head was admitted. They were both sick.
They
both needed help.

His first approach to her on the subject was casual. He didn't tell her
much nor did he make any promises. He just told her that he was trying to
treat
alcoholics by a new method. He and some other alcoholics, he said believed
that
alcoholism could be controlled by medical attention coupled with the
spiritual.
His remarks, though brief, made sense to her.

It wasn't long before Dr. Bob brought in an alcoholic. Sister admitted him
as having acute indigestion. He was put to bed in a double room. Then Dr.
Bob
told her quietly, "We'd like to have him in a private room in the morning."
As
if it weren't bad enough to have an illegal admittance on her conscience
this
man was asking for a private room! Morning found the patient peacefully
asleep,
on a cot in the room where flowers were trimmed and arranged for patients'
rooms!

After that more and more "acute gastritis" cases woke up in St. Thomas
Hospital. In August, 1939, Dr. Bob brought a patient to Sister for
admittance.
So far as is known, he was the first alcoholic ever to be admitted into a
general hospital under the diagnosis: Alcoholism. Dr. Bob never could
remember
just what the policy of the hospital was at that time, nor did he recall
ever
having asked.

Since that August day there have been 4800 cases admitted into St. Thomas.
Until Dr. Bob retired, he visited the ward each day to give personal
attention
to each patient. His cheerful, "Well, what can I do for you?" was heard in
the
ward for the last time, on Christmas, 1949. On that day Sister played the
organ
for him and showed him the beautiful new chimes. . .talked of her hopes of
more
beds and furniture for a lounge outside the ward. The chimes tell the story
of
the bitter criticism of 10 years ago to the complete co-operation from
everyone
connected with the hospital today. But so long as Sister Ignatia goes about
her
duties on the admitting desk and in the AA ward, whenever a drunk is brought
in
a call will come, "Sister, you'd better come. One of your boys is
downstairs!"

Dr. Bob and his first few red-eyed disciples continued to meet with the
Oxford Group. But they were a 'special interest' bloc. The unpredictable
nature
of the alcoholic and his preoccupation with the earthy realities of drinking
and
drunkenness, led the tactful Doctor to the idea of separate meetings.

Without fuss or bother, Dr. Bob announced that there would be a meeting
for the alcoholics. . .if any of them cared to come. When the meeting came
to
order, all of the little band were there. Dr. Bob put his foot on the rung
of a
dining room chair, identified himself as an alcoholic and began reading The
Sermon on the Mount. Still not known as Alcoholics Anonymous, this was the
first
Akron meeting for alcoholics only.

Word of the work being done in Akron began to spread to nearby Cleveland.
Men began coming over to be hospitalized in St. Thomas or City Hospital. The
growth of the group speeded up. By 1939, they were meeting in Akron's Kings
School. They had long since outgrown Anne's small house. Through all the
growth,
the hurts that come with growing pains, the gossip, the little grievances,
Dr.
Bob listened to them all.

Occasionally, he advised. He became the "father confessor" to the group.
So sacred to him were confidences, that he would not break them for anybody
or
anything. Anne used to tease him about be-being "so close-mouthed" that she
claimed she didn't know a thing that was going on. She laughingly told him
that
she would divorce him unless he told her some of the things he knew. . .but
she
was quick to retract her statement because she knew, even for her, he would
not
break a confidence.

By 1939, there were enough men coming to Akron from Cleveland to make it
seem advisable to start a Cleveland Group. The first meeting was held in May
of
that year. The break away from the Akron group brought with it
disagreements.
The only thing that kept them on an even keel, say those pioneers, was the
sound
wisdom of Dr. Bob. How he kept his sanity seemed a miracle. There he was,
they
say, in the midst of a bunch of unstable people, not yet dry behind the
cars. It
may have been because he would never allow one man to speak ill of another
unless that man were present, that the Cleveland off-spring survived.

By the end of 1939, Cleveland had proved a big point in AA history. It had
proved, first that one group could break from another. This they proved
conclusively because by the end of the year there was not one Cleveland
group. .
.there were three! The two splits had been brought about by differences of
opinion. It seemed that no matter what happened the group activity would go
on.
Cleveland proved, too, that alcoholics could be sobered up on what almost
amounted to a mass production basis. By 1944, the Cleveland membership was
well
past 1000. Dr. Bob's wise counsel was right. . ."there's no use worrying
about
these things. As long as people have faith and believe, this will go on."

In the years that came after that meeting on Mother's Day, 1935, Dr. Bob
gave freely of himself to all who came to ask for help, to seek advice. .
.to
laugh or to cry. In so helping others, he began to rebuild himself.
Professionally, he became loved and respected by all who worked with him. .
.socially he was once again the kind, dignified man who Anne and their
friends
knew and admired.

Dr. Bob, as Anne had known him to be, was possessed of calm professional
dignity which gave courage and heart to his patients. In the years to come,
this
dignity, was to play a large part in the lives of the hundreds who came to
his
door. Never given to loose talk, Dr. Bob controlled his tongue as surely, as
steadily and as potently as he did his scalpel. He used the gift of speech
with
the same concise economy, the sureness of purpose, that went into each deft
movement of his surgeon's hands.

More often than not his observations were sprinkled with salty humor. Dr.
Bob had the rare quality of being able to laugh at himself and with others.
As
much a part of him as his quiet professional dignity, was this keen sense of
humor. He spoke with a broad New England accent and was given to dropping a
remark or telling a riotous story absolutely deadpan. This sometimes proved
disconcerting to those who did not know him well, especially when he
referred to
the poised, charming Anne, as "The Frail."

Seldom did he call his friends by their given names. . .it was Abercrombie
to those men of whom he was particularly fond--or Sugar to close women
friends.
. .a friend in the loan business was Shylock. This tall "cadaverous looking
Yankee" who held his profession sacred and walked through life with dignity
would tell anyone who questioned him as to his hopes, his ambitions. . .that
all
he ever wanted in life was "to have curly hair, to tap dance, to play the
piano
and to own a convertible."

One of the very early Akron members says that the first impression he had
of Dr. Bob was of a gruff person, a bit forbidding, with a habit of looking
over
his glasses. He gave the impression of looking right through to your soul.
This
AA says that he got the impression that Dr. Bob knew exactly what he was
thinking. . .and found out later that he did!

When he met Dr. Bob for the first time, what was offered seemed to the new
man, a perfect answer to an immediate and serious problem. . .it was
something
to tell a boss who, at the time was none too sympathetic to his drinking.
Dr.
Bob knew that the man wasn't being honest with him, and he knew he was
kidding
himself. No lectures were given, no recriminations. Dr. Bob began to make a
habit of stopping by the man's house after office hours. About twice a week
he
stopped for coffee and the two men discussed. . .honesty. Then Dr. Bob
suggested
that the man stop kidding himself. Their discussion moved on to faith. .
.faith
in God. The new man went to his employer and, for the first time, saw the
practical power of real honesty. A problem which had looked insurmountable,
vanished, just melted away.

Dr. Bob always began his day with a prayer and meditation over some
familiar Bible verse, then he set about his work in "My Father's vineyard.
."
The work in the "vineyard" was not easy in those years. No "preaching" would
have served, either to the alcoholics who came his way or to those skeptic
members of his profession. He began, now to make AA a way of life.

His life began to be an example of patience and serenity for all to see
and to benefit by if they so chose. It was too early in the years of
education
on alcoholism to be able to speak of the disease above a whisper. . .Dr. Bob
and
Sister Ignatia developed a little code. . .the boys on the third floor were
called the Frails, while the surgical patients were spoken of in the most
proper
professional terms. Often while he went about the business of washing up he
had
to listen in silence to bitter remarks from his fellow doctors. . ."Too bad
this
hospital is so full that a fellow can't get a patient in. . .always room for
the
drunks though--"

In the years to come he was to live to hear himself introduced as the
co-founder of "the greatest," "most wonderful," "must momentous movement of
all
times. . ." For these tributes he was grateful, but he laughed them off and
upon
one occasion was heard to remark. . ."The speaker certainly takes in a lot
of
territory and plenty of time. . ."

In his drinking days, Dr. Bob was two people, two personalities. After his
return to sobriety he remained two personalities. As he made his rounds
through
the hospitals he was the medical practitioner but as he entered the door of
the
alcoholic ward he became, Dr. Bob, a man eager, willing and able to help his
fellowman. Those who worked with him say that as he left the hospital each
day
they felt that two men went out the door. . .one a great M.D., the other a
great
man.

Dr. Bob and Anne lived simply and without pretense in their modest home.
Here they shared the joys of parenthood, the sorrows, the companionship of
their
friends. He was an industrious man, willing to work for the creature
comforts
that he loved. He accepted with humility any material wealth that came his
way.
Something of a perfectionist, he loved diamonds, not for possession, but for
the
beauty of their brilliant perfection. He would go out of his way to look at
a
diamond owned by another. . .he would go out of his way, too, to look at a
favorite view of his beloved mountains and sea.

If he had any pride in possession it was for big gleaming automobiles. He
owned, through his life, many of them. He treated them with the care that
their
mechanical perfection deserved. The car that he probably loved the most was
the
last one he bought just before the end. . .the convertible. The car that
symbolized a lifetime ambition. His friends will remember him in the summer
of
1950, at 71, speeding through the streets of Akron in his new yellow Buick
convertible--the long slim lines made even more rakish with the top down. No
hat, his face to the sun, into the driveway he sped, pebbles flying, tires
screeching, he'd swoosh to a stop! Fate, however, permitted him only 150
miles
of this joyous "hot-rod" driving. It was with reluctance, that summer, that
he
gave in to his illness. For the forty fifth year he returned to his home in
Vermont. . .in the staid and sedate sedan. . ."I won't be able to see the
mountains so well. . .but my legs are a little long for that roadster. . ."

Until the last summer his days were spent in the routine of the hospital.
. .his office and his club, for recreation. During almost all of his adult
life
in Akron, Dr. Bob lunched at the City Club. In his drinking days, it was
often
to hide away in a room until he was found by friends. But in later years it
was
to enjoy the companionship of his good friends, some of whom joined him in
his
new-found sobriety, others had no need of the help he could give them. .
.other
than the pleasure of his friendship.

Noon would almost always find him at the same table in the corner of the
men's dining room. There, for more than ten years he was served by the same
waitress, Nancy. Dr. Bob always greeted her with, "How's my chum today. .
."They
were good friends. As Nancy served him his simple lunch of melon or
grapefruit,
soup, milk or coffee and his favorite Boston CreamPie, they discussed her
problems. Once, Nancy, who was ill at the time, became uncontrollably angry
and
threw a cracker basket at another waiter. Dr. Bob admonished. . ."Now, now
Chum,
don't let little things bother you. . ."The next day he sent her "As a Man
Thinketh So Is He" and "The Runner's Bible."

Nancy always looked forward to serving Dr. Bob and his friends. . ."he was
such a good fellow. . ."Often when there was much discussion, arguments and
pros
and cons, Nancy would ask him why he didn't say something, to which he'd
answer.
. ."Too much being said already!" To Nancy, Dr. Bob was "such a good kind
man. .
.he had such a simple faith in prayer."

After luncheon, if time permitted, Dr. Bob joined his cronies for a game
of Rum or Bridge. He was expert at both; and he always played to win. The
man
who would give you his last dollar, though his own creditors might be hard
at
his heels, would take your last cent away from you, if he could, in a card
game.
. .but he never got angry. He had the habit of keeping up a steady chatter
through the game, his cronies say that it could have been annoying except
that
it was always so funny that you had to laugh.

Dr. Bob vowed that it was silly to take the game seriously. . .never could
see how these tournament players got so serious about this thing. Once when
he
and Anne were in Florida, he was airing his views to a stranger on the
seriousness of some bridge players. The subject had come up because a bridge
tournament was scheduled for that day. The two men sat together discussing
bridge until they talked themselves into entering the tournament. . .since
they
had nothing better to do. The stranger and Dr. Bob made a good showing among
the
"serious" players. They won that afternoon but upset their opponents to such
a
degree as to cause one to remark, "If you had bid right and played right you
never would have won!" Whereupon Dr. Bob said, "Quite so," as he accepted
the
first prize.

For some obscure reason, Dr. Bob always carried a pocket-full of silver.
It may have been a hangover from the insecure squirrel-cage days of the
eternal
fight to keep enough money in his pocket to buy a quart or it may have been
just
because he liked to hear the jingle but there were times when he had as much
as
ten dollars in his pocket.

He had one particular friend with whom he would match a fifty cent piece
by way of greeting. No matter where the two met, each would silently reach
into
his pocket, draw out the silver and match. Silently the winner took the
money
from the other. The first time Dr. Bob underwent serious surgery, he could
not
have visitors. His coin-matching friend came to the hospital to call. He was
met
there by Emma, the woman friend and nurse who cared for Anne. Emma met the
visitor in the guest lounge. She greeted him silently with a coin in her
palm. .
.silently they matched. Dr. Bob was the richer by fifty cents.

This man of two personalities would weep as he told you of his fear that
his skill would not enable him to save the life of a charity patient; then
again
he would weep as he told of what seemed to be a miraculous recovery. He
would
weep, too, from laughter at some story which struck his fancy.

As his son, Bob, grew into manhood, Dr. Bob shared with him the incidents
and the fun of the day. He could hardly wait, it seemed, to get home to tell
young Bob some story picked up at the hospital. Young Bob tells of how he
would
tell a good story, or listen to one, then lean back in his chair to laugh
until
the tears streamed down his cheeks. Then with a familiar gesture, he took
off
his glasses to wipe the tears away. . .still chuckling. "Our home was a
happy
one, in those days," said young Bob, "I never heard a cross word between my
mother and my father."

The war, then marriage took young Bob from home and to Texas where he now
lives. Bob laughs as he tells of his father's first meeting with his
bride-to-be. He looked her up and down then remarked, in his dry and
disconcerting fashion; "She's all right, son. She's built for speed and
light
house-keeping!"

Young Bob often remarked to his father about his seemingly endless
knowledge of medicine, philosophies and general bits of information. To
which
Dr. Bob would reply, "Well, I should know something, I've read for at least
an
hour every night of my adult life--drunk or sober." Sometime during the
course
of all the reading, he delved into Spiritualism. . .he even tried the
mysteries
of the Ouija board. He felt that in some far distant centuries, the science
of
the mind would be so developed as to make possible contact between the
living
and the dead.

All the reading of the years had included studies on alcoholism, too. This
scientific knowledge coupled with his experiences with alcoholics including
himself might well have led him to a strictly scientific approach. He could,
with ease, have spoken of statistics, cures and the like because he
undoubtedly
listened to more "case histories" than any other man alive. He listened
patiently to each man in the ward, to every person who came to his home for
advice, and there were hundreds.

He remained plain Dr. Bob, alcoholic, who came to believe that the
disorder was more on the psychological and spiritual side rather than the
physical. The thinking of the alcoholic patient was all beclouded, his
attitudes
were wrong, his philosophy of life was all mixed up, he had no spiritual
life. .
.the whole man was sick. As one man said, "He came to me in the hospital, he
sat
quietly by my bed and talked, then he prayed to his God for me. . .that's
what
stuck. . .that he took the time and interest and the compassion to pray for
me.
. ."

The happy years of Dr. Bob's sobriety were marred, at last, by Anne's
illness and blindness. Cataracts were completely covering her eyes, so that
she
could not see. . .even after surgery her last years were spent in shadows.
Dr.
Bob began, then, to be her eyes as much as he could. Still in medical
practice,
though, he could not be with her every hour. It was then, in his own quiet
way
that he found a solution.

In 1942, years before Anne's blindness had become serious, two strangers
came to his office, a man and his wife, Emma. The man was seeking the help
that
Dr. Bob could give him. The three sat in his office and talked for almost an
hour, while in the reception room waited the "paying patients."
Occasionally,
after that first meeting, Dr. Bob and Anne stopped by their house; they saw
them
each week at the AA meeting in King School.

Dr. Bob knew that Anne's blindness was fast growing worse and that she
needed daily care. . .he knew too, that she would be unhappy to think of
herself
as a burden to anyone. It came vacation time, the children were gone which
meant
that the house must be left empty. . .the dog to his own devices. What
better
plan than the nice couple, who lived down the street should come to the
house
while they were on vacation. . .to keep it in running order and watch over
the
dog? Would the couple consider throwing some clothes into a bag and going
over
to the house? So it was for eight years Emma, a nurse, and her husband came
from
time to time to stay at Dr. Bob's house. . .until it was necessary for Emma
to
be with Anne at all times. In the last years of Anne's illness she kept
house
for them and during the day, when Dr. Bob was at his office, she watched
over
Anne.

Through those last years together Anne, though in ill health, stood ever
ready to give words of hope and encouragement to all who came to her door.
Her
first thoughts were for others, never herself, no matter how badly she might
feel. When Dr. Bob and Anne prepared for their last trip together, Anne
said,
"You know, I don't really care to go but Dad wants too, and he may never be
able
to make the trip again. . .it will make him happy." Of the same trip, Dr.
Bob
said of Anne, "I don't really want to go, but Anne wants it. It will make
her
happy." Each took the long trip feeling that it was making the other happy.

It was in June, 1949, just after their return, that Anne passed away. At
the time of her passing, Dr. Bob, said, "I will miss her terribly, but she
would
have had it no other way. Had she survived this attack she would have been
in
the hospital for months. . .then there would have been months at home in
bed. .
.she would have hated being a burden. . .she could not have stood it."

In the summer of 1948, Dr. Bob found that he, too, was suffering from a
serious malady. He closed his office and retired from practice, so that he
and
Anne could live their last days together, quietly. For a time after Anne
died,
there was some indecision in the house. It was understood that Emma and her
husband, who had by this time been spending most of their time at the house,
would leave and go to their own home. Dr. Bob was to get a housekeeper or a
nurse. He did interview one woman, but his heart wasn't in it. It was then
that
they all felt that Anne had reached out and made their decision for them.

For the first few weeks after Anne's death, Dr. Bob and Emma dreamed of
Anne almost every night. To Emma, she seemed troubled. One night Emma's
dream of
Anne was so real as to be almost a vision. Emma knew what she must do. Next
morning she faced Dr. Bob. "Do you want us to stay with you?" His answer was
quick and simple, "Yes." None of them dreamed of Anne again.

So it was that the couple who once came to Dr. Bob for help, came to spend
the last year and one half with him. . .they gave up their apartment and
lived
with him until he too, passed on.

Ever the professional man, Dr. Bob watched the progress of his disease
each day. When at last, he knew that the malady was malignant and hopeless,
he
accepted it with calm and lack of resentment. He felt no bitterness at the
doctors who had failed to make an early diagnosis. . ."Why should I blame
them?
I've probably made a lot of fatal mistakes myself!"

Between the times that he was forced to stay in bed or to go to the
hospital to undergo surgery, he lived his life as normally as possible and
got
as much enjoyment out of it as he could. After Anne's death, he and a good
friend drove to the West Coast, where they renewed old acquaintances; then
they
went on to his home in Vermont. . .and to Maine. Where ever he went AAs
showered
him with attention and kindness. Of this he said, "Sometimes these good
people
do so much for me, it is embarrassing. I have done nothing to deserve it, I
have
only been an instrument through which God worked."

At home Dr. Bob settled down to enjoying his friends and the things he
could do for them. . .between his serious attacks he enjoyed "Emmy's" good
food.
"I never saw a man who could eat so much sauerkraut. . .he would go without
his
dessert, just to have another helping!" Then came the television set.

Emma's husband went to Dr. Bob one day telling him that he was in the mood
to buy a television set. "Well," said Dr. Bob, who didn't like television. .
.would have no part of it. . ."I guess if you can buy the set, I can give
you
the chimney for the aerial." The beautiful new set arrived in due time but
Dr.
Bob would have none of it. He absolutely refused to look at it. Then one
night,
as he lay on the davenport. Emma caught him peeking around his newspaper!
The
"sneaking a look" went on for days until he succumbed and became a fan.
After
that he spent long pleasant hours watching the TV shows. . .especially the
tap
dancers. . ."Hmph," he'd grunt, "that's easy. . .nothing to it. . .anybody
can
do it!" At the time of the Louis: Charles fight, he stayed in bed all day so
that he would be rested enough to see the fight that evening!

As a patient, Dr. Bob behaved himself very well except for one thing. He
refused to take his pills as they were scheduled. Instead he put his old
"patent
throat" to use. He kept a shot glass, which he filled with all the pills he
was
to take for the day. While Emma looked on in awe, even as the brothers of
yore,
he'd throw back his head and toss off the pills at one gulp. . ."What
difference
does it make? They all go to the same place anyway!"

That he knew the exact progress of his disease was evident to Emma and
those close to him, although he never complained, even when in pain. After a
doctor's call he would say to Emma, "Sugar, don't kid me now. This is the
end
isn't it?" Emma always answered with, "Now you know better. You know exactly
what's going on!"

During the Spring and Summer of 1950, when he had to husband his strength
and measure it out carefully, Dr. Bob expressed the wish to do three things.
He
wanted to attend the First International Conference of Alcoholics Anonymous
in
Cleveland. He wanted, once again, to go to St. Johnsbury, Vermont, for his
vacation. And he wanted to spend Christmas with his son in Texas. . .two of
his
wishes were fulfilled.

As the days passed and the date of the Conference drew nearer, he began
more and more, to conserve his energy. Most of his days were spent in his
room.
. .on the davenport watching the TV cap-dancers and listening to the
pianists.
Those who were close to him watched him grow weaker. . .then rally. . .

While the last, mad days of preparations for the Conference were going on
in Cleveland, it seemed, at times, to his close friends, that he would not
gather the strength to do the thing that he so much wanted to do. Even to
the
last minutes before the Big Meeting, on Sunday, it was doubtful whether he
would
be granted the vigor he needed to appear in the Cleveland Auditorium to say
the
few words that he wanted to say to the thousands waiting to hear and see
him.

Those gathered that hot Sunday afternoon, now know, that when at last Dr.
Bob joined the others on the platform they were witnessing another milestone
of
the movement built on simple faith and works. . .At the time, this throng
was
perhaps too close to history to know the full meaning of what was taking
place
before them. . .Now he came forward to speak to the thousands. . .with quiet
dignity. . .even as that night so long ago, when in Anne's living room, he
put
his foot on the rung of a dining room chair to read The Sermon on the Mount.
.
.he leaned forward against the lectern to say:

"My good friends in AA and of AA. I feel I would be very remiss if I
didn't take this opportunity to welcome you here to Cleveland not only to
this
meeting but those that have already transpired. I hope very much that the
presence of so many people and the words that you have heard will prove an
inspiration to you--not only to you but may you be able to impart that
inspiration to the boys and girls back home who were not fortunate enough to
be
able to come. In other words, we hope that your visit here has been both
enjoyable and profitable.

"I get a big thrill out of looking over a vast sea of faces like this with
a feeling that possibly some small thing that I did a number of years ago
played
an infinitely small part in making this meeting possible. I also get quite a
thrill when I think that we all had the same problem. We all did the same
things. We all get the same results in proportion to our zeal and enthusiasm
and
stick-to-itiveness. If you will pardon the injection of a personal note at
this
time, let me say that I have been in bed five of the last seven months and
my
strength hasn't returned as I would like, so my remarks of necessity will be
very brief.

"But there are two or three things that flashed into my mind on which it
would be fitting to lay a little emphasis; one is the simplicity of our
Program.
Let's not louse it all up with Freudian complexes and things that are
interesting to the scientific mind but have very little to do with our
actual AA
work. Our 12 Steps, when simmered down to the last, resolve themselves into
the
words love and service. We understand what love is and we understand what
service is. So let's bear those two things in mind.

"Let us also remember to guard that erring member--the tongue, and if we
must use it, let's use it with kindness and consideration and tolerance.

"And one more thing; none of us would be here today if somebody hadn't
taken time to explain things to us, to give us a little pat on the back, to
take
us to a meeting or two, to have done numerous little kind and thoughtful
acts in
our behalf. So let us never get the degree of smug complacency so that we're
not
willing to extend or attempt to, that help which has been so beneficial to
us,
to our less fortunate brothers. Thank you very much."

As he returned to his seat on the platform, those who watched could easily
see that the exertion of saying the brief words of counsel had left him
physically weak and spent. Try as he would, he was forced to leave after a
few
moments. In consternation thousands of eyes followed him as he left the
stage.

He was driven back to Akron, that afternoon by a friend. As Dr. Bob was
helped into the automobile, he seemed physically very near complete
exhaustion.
As they drove the thirty odd miles from Cleveland to Akron, some inner
strength
seemed to revive Dr. Bob so that by the time they drove up to his home he
was
almost his old self. The man who seemed on the point of collapse only an
hour
before, said "Well, if I'm going to be ready to go to Vermont next week, I'd
better be about it."

Shortly after the Conference, he did go to Vermont. Dr. Bob, his son and
his daughter-in-law, drove, in the sedan, to his boyhood home, where he
visited
old friends for the last time. . .and worried all the time for fear the
convertible would not be comfortable for Emma and her husband to drive on
their
long vacation trip. . ."Should've taken it myself. . ."

Upon his return home, he was admitted into St. Thomas hospital for a minor
operation. . .one of so many that had come during the last years. Then home
to
Emma's good cooking and rest.

In November, his doctors found it advisable to perform another of the
minor operations. This time, he went to City Hospital, where in 1910 he had
come
as an interne and where later, he and Bill had talked to "the third man." On
Wednesday, November 15, a day after the operation, an old friend called and
spoke to him. "Why, I'm just fine Abercrombie, just fine. . ."

Close to noontime on Thursday, November 16, 1950, he was resting. The
nurse in attendance stood by his bed, watching. . .waiting for any change
that
might come. Dr. Bob, M.D., lifted his hand to the light. . .with
professional
calm he studied the color. . .with a final confirming glance, he spoke. .
."You
had better call the family. . .this is it. . ."

--so reconciled with his brothers, he placed his gifts upon the alter and
went his way. .

Mel
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mel Barger
melb@accesstoledo.com

----- Original Message -----
From: shakey1aa
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 1:37 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] L J Knisely living at 855 Ardmore in 1950?

In the 1950 City Directory of Akron, I see
Dr. R H Smith as owner of 855 Ardmore Ave and
a phone number of UN-2436.

I also have a listing at the address for a
person named L J Knisely.

Was this person a relative of the Smith's or
perhaps a live-in nurse or just a boarder?
Does any one have any knowledge of this person?

Yours in Service
Shakey Mike Gwirtz
See you in Niagara Falls NY Sept 11-14 2008

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 4869. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Tom Powers and Betty Love
From: Phil . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/11/2008 1:27:00 AM

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--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,
Peter Tippett <petetippett@...> wrote:
>
> Can/would someone clarify for me the role Tom
> Powers and Betty Love played in the writing of
> the 12x12, please?
>
> Thanks,
> Pete Tippett
>
The following information comes out of 'The
Soul of Sponsorship' The Friendship of Fr. Ed
Dowling, S.J. and Bill Wilson in Letters.
-- By Robert Fitzgerald, S.J....Hazelden
Pittman Archives Press... Chapter 9--The
Spiritual Exercises and the Traditions--
Pg.55-56

On May 20, 1952, Bill wrote to Dowling with
a draft copy of the 12 essays on the tradi-
tions...

"We'd very much like your criticisms on the
material enclosed. Do we run across the grain
of your ideas anywhere, do you care for the
writing style and is the structural situation
depicted in conformity with your observation
of AA?"

Bill mentioned he had good help from some
writers, Tom Powers,Betty Love, and Jack
Alexander.

He wanted Dowling's input,"no punches pulled,"
and ended the letter with a request for The
Spiritual Exercises of St. Ignatius.

Phil M. Denver area AA

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++++Message 4870. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Rensselaer, Indiana, AA Retreat
From: arcchi88 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/13/2008 7:36:00 AM

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Thanks for the kind response, I am familiar
with the fact that Father Ralph Pfau started
the retreat there. However, the retreat that
is going on there still is run by Evans Avenue
(I think) of Chicago.

They are apparently celebrating the 50th year
of holding these retreats this summer. I do
not know and have been unable to find any
history on how this retreat was started in
1958.

Of course there is a gap of ten or eleven
years between the start of retreats there
by Father Pfau. Did father Pfau hand it off
to Evans Ave or another group?

I haven't found any information that would
indicate that Father Pfau continued to have
the retreats at Saint Joseph's so far.

Any additional information is greatly
appreciated!

Thanks again,

Tom C.

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "arcchi88" <arcchi88@...>
wrote:
>
> I was wondering if anyone has any history on
> a retreat that is held annually at St. Joseph's
> College in Rensselaer, Indiana.
>
> There have got to be some people who have
> attended in years past who can tell a story
> or two!!!
>
> If you have ever attended this retreat and
> have a story to tell, big or small, please
> pass it on!
>
> Thanks!
>
> Tom C.
>
> - - - -

From the moderator, Glenn C.
(South Bend, Indiana):

If the present retreat was started by the
Evans Avenue Group in Chicago, then have
you looked at this?

"Early Black A.A. along the Chicago-Gary-
South Bend Axis: The Stories and Memories
of Early Black Leaders Told in Their Own
Words"

http://hindsfoot.org/nblack1.html
http://hindsfoot.org/Nblack2.html
http://hindsfoot.org/Nblack3.html

That article doesn't mention them having
retreats at Rensselaer, Indiana, but it
might give some background.

John Shaifer lived in Gary, Indiana, but was
connected with the Evans Avenue Group in
Chicago:

http://hindsfoot.org/ngary1js.html
http://hindsfoot.org/ngary2js.html

John went one of Father Ralph Pfau's retreats
every year for at least fifteen years, if my
memory is correct, at Gethsemani Abbey in
Kentucky, and did his fifth step with Father
Pfau. I don't know whether John went to the
retreat in Rensselaer, but I am sure that the
people who organized the Rensselaer retreat
would have known him, if they were from the
Evans Avenue Group.

So there might be a linkage (via that
connection) between Father Ralph's early
retreats and the Evans Avenue retreats.

Evans Avenue is still going strong, by the
way, or at least they were when I visited
there three or four years ago, although
they had moved their fellowship house from
its original location on Evans Avenue in
Chicago. They had a lot of valuable
archival materials there, which possibly
would have the answers to all your questions.

Glenn C., South Bend, Indiana

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++++Message 4871. . . . . . . . . . . . They seem to have been born that way
From: nats_attitude . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/13/2008 10:11:00 AM

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I was wondering if anyone can tell me what
the phrase "They are not at fault; they seem
to have been born that way" means in the
contextual form it was written in the fifth
chapter of the Big Book, "How It Works."

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++++Message 4873. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: They seem to have been born that
way
From: hartsell . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/14/2008 4:01:00 AM

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Not capable of rigorous honesty.

If one looks at the DSM IV criteria for
sociopaths, or considers the term
"Congenital Liar" "born that way", one might
have a pretty fair understanding of Bill's
meaning in use of that phrase. Lest there
be an outcry to my reference to "sociopaths",
it is generally understood that they may not
have a conscience, but can be "taught" one.

My old Sponsor might have answered with a
favorite saying of his, "Alcoholics are
natural-born liars, they'll climb a tree to
tell a lie when they could stand on the
ground and tell the truth!" but then he also
contended that rigorous practice of and
adherence to 12 Step Principles would cure
that condition.

Sherry C.H.

- - - -

Original Message from: nats_attitude

I was wondering if anyone can tell me what
the phrase "They are not at fault; they seem
to have been born that way" means in the
contextual form it was written in the fifth
chapter of the Big Book, "How It Works."

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++++Message 4874. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: They seem to have been born that
way
From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/14/2008 9:56:00 AM

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I could be way off on this but on face value
there seems to be a high probability that it
contextually means:"They are not at fault;
they seem to have been born that way."

Cheers
Arthur

- - - -

Original Message from: nats_attitude

I was wondering if anyone can tell me what
the phrase "They are not at fault; they seem
to have been born that way" means in the
contextual form it was written in the fifth
chapter of the Big Book, "How It Works."

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++++Message 4875. . . . . . . . . . . . Groups looking to secede
From: dino . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/14/2008 12:27:00 PM

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Was there ever a time in AA history where
certain groups or factions made an effort to
secede en masse?

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++++Message 4876. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: AA in Vladivostok
From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/12/2008 9:33:00 AM

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Is someone going to let Sergey know about
anonymity & that AA is NOT self-help? Thanks.

Just Love,
Barefoot Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of robin_foote
Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2008 7:18 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] AA in Vladivostok

Anonymous Alcoholics Will Gather in Vladivostok

This public association is a part of the World
community of anonymous alcoholics, which was
founded in 1935 in the USA

VLADIVOSTOK, February 10, vladivostoktimes.com
The self-help society of anonymous alcoholics
of Vladivostok "Welcome" celebrates its 15th
anniversary, the newspaper "Vladivostok"
writes.

The celebration of the anniversary and intro-
ducing the society will be held on Saturday at
noon in the Primorye State Arsenyev museum.

This public association is a part of the World
community of anonymous alcoholics, which was
founded in 1935 in the USA. Welcome members
are trained on the program "12 steps."

Every person can apply with his problem to
this association and get a free advice. In
these years thousands of Primorye residents
have found support. Everyone who came with
his own trouble could see that he is not lone
in this world. The trainings are held not only
with those who are tired of taking alcohol
or drugs, but also with their relatives.

"Unfortunately, not everyone is ready to refuse
of his destructive vices," one of the members
of the group of self-help of anonymous
alcoholics Sergey YAKOVLEV claims. "But it
is never late to do the first step."

http://vladivostoktimes.ru/show.php?id=21451

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 4877. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: They seem to have been born that
way
From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/16/2008 9:34:00 AM

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--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,
"nats_attitude" <nats_attitude@...> wrote:
>
> I was wondering if anyone can tell me what
> the phrase "They are not at fault; they seem
> to have been born that way" means in the
> contextual form it was written in the fifth
> chapter of the Big Book, "How It Works."
>

It depends on what you mean by context. For
comparison, here is something form an article
on alcoholism treatment which appeared in the
July 1938 issue of Harper's. That places it
close in time to the writing of the Big Book.
The author, Genevieve Parkhurst, later wrote
an article on AA for Harper's .

"It would be misleading to claim that all
forms of alcoholism may be healed by this or
any other method. Some human beings are so
naturally unequal to the conflicts of living
that, in the light of present knowledge, little
can be done for them except to protect them
from the disturbing issues which cause them to
drink. There are also the extreme cases, the
psychotics whom alcohol has removed into the
obscure recesses of the abnormal. Their cure
is problematical and is the business of the
psychiatrist and physician alone. For any
layman to attempt to explain such cases would
be dangerous; even the most distinguished
medical scientists still disagree about them.

"By far the greater number of heavy drinkers,
however, belong in a class whose ailment can
be more easily corrected. They are the men
and women--we all know them--in whom the habit
of excess has grown until their health, their
business, their home life, and their peace of
mind are in jeopardy. They are those whom the
psychologist, Charles H. Durfee, who has been
successful in healing them, mentions in his
book To Drink or Not To Drink as "problem
drinkers." For them there is more than an even
chance of cure in a comparatively new kind of
mental therapy now being practiced by trained
psychologists who, through study and trial,
have brought it to a high level of efficacy."

The article later quotes Richard R. Peabody as
a pathfinder in the field, who said that in his
experience "seldom did a child whose parents
maintained an intelligent attitude toward
him mature into a drunkard." Evidently when
Parkhurst used the expression "trained psycho-
logists" she included some people who would be
considered lay therapists and who were also
known to the AA pioneers.

Cora

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++++Message 4878. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: They seem to have been born that
way
From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/15/2008 4:29:00 AM

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British criminal court judges used to follow
the McNaughton (I think that's how it's spelled)
rule which decreed that some accused were
incapable of entering a plea (guilty or not
guilty) to charges because they were unable
to distinguish between right and wrong
(psychopaths etc). I guess the accused had
to be diagnosed as such by a psychiatrist.

- - - -

From: hartsell@etex.net

Not capable of rigorous honesty.If one looks at the DSM IV criteria for
sociopaths, or considers the term "Congenital Liar" "born that way", one
might
have a pretty fair understanding of Bill's meaning in use of that phrase.
Lest
there be an outcry to my reference to "sociopaths", it is generally
understood
that they may not have a conscience, but can be "taught" one.My old Sponsor
might have answered with a favorite saying of his, "Alcoholics are
natural-born
liars, they'll climb a tree to tell a lie when they could stand on the
ground
and tell the truth!" but then he alsocontended that rigorous practice of and
adherence to 12 Step Principles would cure that condition.Sherry C.H.

- - - -

Original Message from: nats_attitude

I was wondering if anyone can tell me what the phrase "They are not at
fault;
they seem to have been born that way" means in the contextual form it was
written in the fifth chapter of the Big Book, "How It Works."

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++++Message 4879. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: They seem to have been born that
way
From: DudleyDobinson@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/14/2008 3:12:00 PM

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The English would call that a droll reply.
Nothing beats commons sense. What did Doctor
Bob say about Freudian complexes and looking
for hidden meanings? Keep it simple.
Be gentle to your minds

Dudley

- - - -

I could be way off on this but on face value
there seems to be a high probability that it
contextually means:"They are not at fault;
they seem to have been born that way."

Cheers
Arthur

- - - -

From: Jon Markle <serenitylodge@bellsouth.net>
(serenitylodge at bellsouth.net)

OH I LOVED THIS ANSWER.

Quite often, I think, many people try to read
between the lines of the Big Book, entirely
missing the obvious message of the little black
marks . . . the actual words. The message of
the book means exactly what those words say.

Perhaps searcching for an "easier softer way"
or at least an excuse? <GRIN>L

In my experience, Alcoholics Annonymous (the
Book) is a very simple approach for a compli-
cated people!

It says what it says. Period. No amount of
interpretation will change that, I think.
Nor does it need to.

Thanks for the good laugh, Arthur.

Hugs for the trudge.

Jon (Raleigh)
9/9/82

- - - -

From: "Murray Eaton" <meaton1287@rogers.com>
(meaton1287 at rogers.com)

I think Arthur S has summed it up concisely.

- - - -

Original Message from: nats_attitude

I was wondering if anyone can tell me what
the phrase "They are not at fault; they seem
to have been born that way" means in the
contextual form it was written in the fifth
chapter of the Big Book, "How It Works."

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++++Message 4880. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Member introduction and group
response
From: Tom White . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/14/2008 3:49:00 PM

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I came in NYC area in 1959. There were no
"Hi, Tom" cries then in that area. I first
bumped into the thing, I think in California
in the late 60s when visiting out there in
the Anaheim area. It was universal when I
got to Texas 20 years ago. And it doesn't
much bother me. Neither does the chanting at
the end, "It works if.. ."

But I admit to being positively annoyed by
people who in a small discussion meeting
insist on repeating, every time they speak,
tic-like, "My name is . . . and I'm an
alcoholic," apparently supposing since they
last talked two minutes ago we had all
forgotten that.

BTW I always use my full name since everybody
did in NYC in 1959. In this as in all else
I defer to the power of the individual group.
There appears to be no way to "fix" all this
from on High.

Tom W. Texas

- - - -

From: glennccc@sbcglobal.net
(glennccc at sbcglobal.net)

Sgt. Bill W. told me that in the late
1940's and early 1950's, people in some AA
groups introduced themselves by saying "my
name is XXXXX" and then giving their sobriety
date. In other AA groups, they said "my name
is XXXXX and I'm an alcoholic."

He said that they did it the first way on Long
Island (in the New York City area) in the
late 1940's, and that, although he certainly
did not know how it was done all over the
country, he had the impression that saying
"I'm an alcoholic" was more midwestern.

Bill also clearly felt that people who went
around worrying all the time about saying
"exactly the right words" were totally
failing to understand the true spirit of
the AA program and the twelve steps, and
would get impatient with people who
fussed about that kind of thing too much.

(Since he was getting a 50% success rate
in his work with alcoholics at Lackland
in the 1950's, he presumably had some good
ideas about what was important and what was
not important.)

I would be interested in knowing if either
version (giving your sobriety date or saying
"I'm an alcoholic") was practiced in the
1930's and early 1940's. And if so, where?

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

- - - -

From: "grault" <GRault@yahoo.com>
(GRault at yahoo.com)

I know from a New Orleans old-timer who
sobered up in New York City, that the
"Hi, ---!" response started as early as the
'60s I believe . . . certainly the "I'm
an alcoholic" introduction had long
preceded that. I heard long ago that it
was just a short way of "qualifying" for
being at a closed meeting. But all my
memories of what I've heard about it are
sketchy and very incomplete.

Gerry R.
New Orleans

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++++Message 4881. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Rensselaer, Indiana, AA Retreat
From: Phil . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/14/2008 8:02:00 PM

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About 12 Step Retreats: I'm not familiar with
your part of the country. Out west here,
Denver, Seattle, etc ... just look up Jesuit
Retreat House.

Jesuits are the Spiritual Order that Fr Ed
Dowling, Bill W's sponsor was. If you read
Pass It On...Bill's Story and the Story of
AA...You'll read about the first meeting
between Bill and his sponsor in 1940.

Fr. Ed traveled all the way from St. Louis
to New York to see if Bill intentionally
borrowed from the Spiritual Exercises of St
Ignatius (the founder of the Jesuit order)
to form the 12 Step Program of recovery.

Bill did not, but the Program is remarkably
the same as the Exercises. So the 12 step
Program has kind of been swallowed up by
the Jesuits. Almost anywhere you can find
a Jesuit Retreat House, you can find a 12
Step Retreat.

Phil M. Denver area AA

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++++Message 4882. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Groups looking to secede
From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/14/2008 11:07:00 AM

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Didn't Session Mexico, in August of 1986,
comprising 2500 groups, secede from Mexican
GSO? I remember hearing about the Mexican
army confiscating the Big Books that were
printed without the approval of GSO in Mexico
and the Director of Session Mexico was put
in Mexican prison for a year. The GSO books
were costing too much for the average Mexican
AA member to afford so the thousand or so
groups in Mexico City broke away and printed
Big Books that were affordable. My under-
standing is that Mexican GSO had the approval
of GSO in New York City To do so. Perhaps an
AAHL past delegate, during or about that
time period, can elaborate on this sad day
in AA history.

Shakey Mike Gwirtz
Phila, Pa
Going to Niagara Falls NY in Sept.

- - - -

From: "Phil" <ez4me2phil@yahoo.com>
(ez4me2phil at yahoo.com)

It is happening now in the Denver area. They
call themselves "Celebrate Recovery,"
"Overcomers Outreach," and "Recovery in
Christ," etc.... They are usually Protestants
that have a problem with the pluralism of AA,
i.e. "your own conception of God," Ebby's
message to Bill.

I find them in almost every meeting in Denver.
They prey on the fallen away Catholics and
the agnostics mostly. They try and sell them-
selves as modern versions of the Oxford Groups.
Forgetting AA history and all the things that
went down in Cleveland when AA broke away from
the Oxford groups' radical Protestant evan-
gelization.

If you end up at one of their meetings they
use things like the Recovery Bible. It is a
watered-down Protestant Bible with a lot of
pychobabble on how to self-interpret the Bible
in a recovery context.

The meetings are filled with lots of AA bashing
and talk of saving those poor fools in AA.
Things like if we only knew Christ the way
they do we wouldn't need a recovery program.

- - - -

From the moderator:

On Mexico, please, do a search on our message
board for the word "Mexico." We had literally
dozens of messages on this topic almost
exactly a year ago. See for example Messages
4168, 4161, 4157, 4154, 4150, 4149, 4132,
4131, 4115, 4114, 4093, etc.

I think everything useful that can be said
on this topic has already been said. But
Mike is right, this would be an example of
a major internal AA schism.

We should also remember that groups like
All Addictions Anonymous were essentially
groups which "seceded" from AA in the sense
of groups which got together to form their
own national organizations which were
separate from the New York GSO-centered
organization:

http://www.alladdictionsanonymous.com/

And if you look at the list of twelve step
groups at

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Twelve-Step_groups

Did these groups "secede" from AA? In part,
this is a matter of how you define the word
secede.

And how about Moderation Management's
nine step program?

http://www.moderation.org/

And Life Ring Secular Recovery?

http://www.unhooked.com/index.htm

It depends in part on how you define the
term "secede," since they were definitely
started by people who were unhappy with
at least some of the AA program, and
thought they had a better way of setting
up groups for recovery from alcoholism.

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

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++++Message 4883. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Groups looking to secede
From: terry walton . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/15/2008 10:24:00 AM

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Yes, it happens daily with a resentment and
a coffee pot.

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,
"dino" <lauraoshea@...> wrote:
>
> Was there ever a time in AA history where
> certain groups or factions made an effort to
> secede en masse?

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++++Message 4884. . . . . . . . . . . . Psychiatrists and the McNaghten Rule
From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/18/2008 8:05:00 AM

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It would not be the evidence of a psychiatrist
that would be dispositive as to whether a
defendant was sane. Determination of sanity
under McNaghten is, so far as I know, the
province of the jury deciding matters of fact,
and there were no psychiatrists nor any science
of psychiatry when McNaghten was first
established.

Of course psychiatric testimony would be heard
-- is heard -- but only as a part of the
process of determining whether the defendant
knew right from wrong, on which psychiatrists
may perhaps not be the most expert witnesses.

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++++Message 4885. . . . . . . . . . . . History info
From: mrpetesplace . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/17/2008 10:35:00 AM

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Locally we are having a workshop and I was
asked to participate. The theme is "Grassroots
of AA". So in preparation I'm trying to locate
a few items I saw in the past but can't seem
to find them anymore.

An AA Bulletin from November 14, 1940

Typed documents that I believed to be from NY
with meetings listed in various cities and
states including from North Carolina. These
were dated December 1941 and September 1942
I believe.

These were posted on a site called
archivesinternational.org at one time and
I had them bookmarked but the site is down
now.

The other item I'm looking for is a recording
from the mid 1940's. It is a video from a
"March of Times" series I believe. I've seen
several 'clips' but never the whole thing, I
figured it might be about 15-20 minutes long
but might be way off. I am hoping to find
these documents and video in by the first
week of April for our afternoon workshop.

Thank you in advance for any help.

Respectfully, Peter F.

<peter@aastuff.com> (peter at aastuff.com)

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++++Message 4886. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: They seem to have been born that
way
From: Jon Markle . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/16/2008 10:30:00 PM

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This one phrase from the Big Book has been a
bulwark for me.

I work as a clinician on a specialized team
which treats people who suffer from chronic,
cyclical, severe, persistent mental illness
and who have a long history of substance abuse
and/or addictions. Most of the patients I see
have been kicked out of AA meetings because
they cannot adapt to the expectations of the
groups they attempt. They are "constitution-
ally incapable" by most AA member's standards
and are not welcome at meetings.

By the same token, they also have been kicked
out of clinics and hospitals . . . in other
words, they are those that most of society has
given up on. They are homeless and hopeless
when they come to us.

I am happy to report that we have seen huge
successes, miracles, in people who have other-
wise been cast aside as hopeless. And we have
attributed part of that to networking with a
couple of local AA meetings over the years.
Many of my clients have been able to become
active and productively engaged in meetings
and home groups now.

If I can find even one little shred of
"honesty" -- no matter about what -- I know
that the miracle of recovery can happen.

Hugs for the trudge.

Jon (Raleigh)
9/9/82

On Feb 16, 2008, at 9:34 AM, corafinch wrote:

> --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,
> "nats_attitude" <nats_attitude@...> wrote:
>>
>> I was wondering if anyone can tell me what
>> the phrase "They are not at fault; they seem
>> to have been born that way" means in the
>> contextual form it was written in the fifth
>> chapter of the Big Book, "How It Works."
>>
>
> It depends on what you mean by context. For
> comparison, here is something form an article
> on alcoholism treatment which appeared in the
> July 1938 issue of Harper's. That places it
> close in time to the writing of the Big Book.
> The author, Genevieve Parkhurst, later wrote
> an article on AA for Harper's .
>
> "It would be misleading to claim that all
> forms of alcoholism may be healed by this or
> any other method. Some human beings are so
> naturally unequal to the conflicts of living
> that, in the light of present knowledge, little
> can be done for them except to protect them
> from the disturbing issues which cause them to
> drink. There are also the extreme cases, the
> psychotics whom alcohol has removed into the
> obscure recesses of the abnormal. Their cure
> is problematical and is the business of the
> psychiatrist and physician alone. For any
> layman to attempt to explain such cases would
> be dangerous; even the most distinguished
> medical scientists still disagree about them.
>
> "By far the greater number of heavy drinkers,

> however, belong in a class whose ailment can
> be more easily corrected. They are the men
> and women--we all know them--in whom the habit
> of excess has grown until their health, their
> business, their home life, and their peace of
> mind are in jeopardy. They are those whom the
> psychologist, Charles H. Durfee, who has been
> successful in healing them, mentions in his
> book To Drink or Not To Drink as "problem
> drinkers." For them there is more than an even
> chance of cure in a comparatively new kind of
> mental therapy now being practiced by trained
> psychologists who, through study and trial,
> have brought it to a high level of efficacy."
>
> The article later quotes Richard R. Peabody as
> a pathfinder in the field, who said that in his
> experience "seldom did a child whose parents
> maintained an intelligent attitude toward
> him mature into a drunkard." Evidently when
> Parkhurst used the expression "trained psycho-
> logists" she included some people who would be
> considered lay therapists and who were also
> known to the AA pioneers.
>
> Cora
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

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++++Message 4887. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: They seem to have been born that
way
From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/17/2008 10:48:00 AM

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This article, headed "Rarely Not Never",
appeared in the October 2007 issue of "Share",
the monthly magazine published by the UK
AA General Service Board:-

"Bristol Fashion" was a newsletter founded and
edited by members of the Bristol Newcomers AA
group (in Gloucestershire, England). This
extract is reprinted with grateful acknowledg-
ment.

"Bristol Fashion" is indebted to Nell Wing,
Bill W's non-alcoholic secretary and AA's
first archivist, for supplying observations
of our co-founder when questioned as to the
word "Rarely" in chapter five, "How It Works",
of the Big Book.

Excerpt from (Bill's) first letter: "Respecting
my use of the word 'rarely', I think it was
chosen because it did not express an absolute
state of affairs, such as 'never' does. Anyhow
we are certainly stuck with the word 'rarely'.
My few efforts to change the wording of the AA
book have always come to naught - the protests
are always too many."

In another letter Bill wrote: "Concerning your
comment about the use of the word 'rarely' in
chapter five of the Big Book. My recollection
is that we did give this considerable thought
at the time of writing. I think the main reason
for the use of the word 'rarely' was to avoid
anything that would look like a claim to a
100 per cent result. Assuming of course that
an alcoholic is sane enough and willing enough,
there can be a perfect score ... But since
willingness and sanity are such elusive and
fluctuating values, we simply didn't like to
be too positive. The medical profession would
jump right down our throats. Then, too, we have
seen people who apparently have tried their
very best, and then failed. Not because of
unwillingness, but perhaps by reason of
physical tension or some undisclosed quirk,
not known to them or anyone else. Neither did
we want to over-encourage relatives and friends
in the supposition that their dear ones could
surely get well in AA if only they were willing.
I think that's why we chose that word. I
remember thinking about it quite a lot. Maybe
some of these same reasons would apply to the
present conditions. Anyhow, I know this: the
text of the AA book is so frozen in the minds
of tens of thousands of AA's that even the
slightest change creates an uproar."

Nell Wing and Frank M., her successor as
archivist at GSO, New York, visited Britain
at "Bristol Fashion's" invitation in the
1990s. The newsletter ceased publication a
few years ago...

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++++Message 4888. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Groups looking to secede
From: Sober186@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/16/2008 6:06:00 PM

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Yes, I have heard several such reports. One
is contained in A.A. History, Hank Parkhurst
-- New York's A.A.#2. Unfortunately Hank went
back out and on a long bender.

Then, according to this history, "Soon Hank
went to Ohio and began spreading vicious tales
attacking Bill Wilson. Bill was grateful that
Dr. Bob and Anne Smith disbelieved his stories,
but many, especially Clarence Snyder and
Henrietta Seiberling (who had never liked Bill)
did believe Hank's tales. In Cleveland, some
started calling for Bill's exclusion from
Alcoholics Anonymous and even accused him of
financial trickery.

In New York, they began hearing about several
Cleveland groups that wanted to secede and
break off all connection with Bill Wilson's
brand of AA."

Source: http://www.barefootsworld.net/aany2hankp.html

While the word "secede" is difficult to find
in any literature, what happened between the
Akron contingent and those who formed a new
group in Cleveland, certainly has all the
earmarks of secession.

"A fellowship of anonymous drunks had in fact
existed prior to May 11, 1939. But it was the
Cleveland meeting which first used the name
Alcoholics Anonymous, that it took from the
book. Cleveland's May, 1939 meeting is the
first documented meeting which used the name
Alcoholics Anonymous, separate and apart from
the Oxford Group.

According to the records of the Cleveland
Central Committee's Recording Statistician,
Norman E. (which were compiled in the middle
of June 1942) the following took place:

On 5/10/39, nine members left the Akron
meeting of the Oxford Group to form the G.
group. The location of the group was 2345
Stillman Road, Cleveland Heights, Cleveland,
Ohio. The sponsors of the group were;
Clarence Snyder, Al G., Geo. J. McD., John D.,
Dr. Harry N., Lee L., Vaughn P., Chas. J.,
and Lloyd T. The first secretary of the group
was Clarence Snyder .... The first A.A.
meeting in the world was not uneventful.
According to Clarence, the entire group from
Akron showed up the next night and tried to
"discourage" the Cleveland meeting from
happening. Discourage was a very mild term,
according to Clarence; and he used it
sarcastically. He said: "The whole group
descended upon us and tried to break up our
meeting. One guy was gonna whip me. I want you
to know that this was all done in pure
Christian love. A.A. started in riots.
It rose in riots."

Source: http://silkworth.net/chs/chs05.html

Love and serve

Jim L.

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++++Message 4889. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: RE: They seem to have been born
that way
From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/18/2008 5:39:00 PM

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At 09:48 2/17/2008 , jenny andrews wrote:

>This article, headed "Rarely Not Never",
>appeared in the October 2007 issue of "Share",
>the monthly magazine published by the UK
>AA General Service Board:-
>

I would note that the same material was covered in an article in the
December 1978, Grapevine, titled "Rarely--or Never?"

It is available online at the Grapevine site. [Subscription required]

<http://www.aagrapevine.org/da/article.php?id=79179&tb=2ZGE9ZHQlM0ExOTc4XzEy
JnBnPTQ=>

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

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++++Message 4890. . . . . . . . . . . . God and Spirituality
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/18/2008 5:51:00 PM

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Glenn F. Chesnut, "God and Spirituality:
Philosophical Essays," January 2008, see
http://hindsfoot.org/philos.html

Full text of the book is now available on
line at http://hindsfoot.org/kperson1.html

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++++Message 4891. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Groups looking to secede
From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/18/2008 9:45:00 PM

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At 22:06 2/16/2008 , Sober186@aol.com wrote:
>
>On 5/10/39, nine members left the Akron
>meeting of the Oxford Group to form the G.
>group. The location of the group was 2345
>Stillman Road, Cleveland Heights, Cleveland,
>Ohio. The sponsors of the group were;
>Clarence Snyder, Al G., Geo. J. McD., John D.,
>Dr. Harry N., Lee L., Vaughn P., Chas. J.,
>and Lloyd T. The first secretary of the group
>was Clarence Snyder ....

All these names but Lloyd T are consistent
with names on the First 226 Members of the
Akron Group and have Cleveland addresses:

Al G Albert Goldrich
Chas J Charles Johns
Lee L Lee Loria
Geo. J. McD George McDermott
Dr. Harry N Dr. Harry Nash
Vaughn P Vaughn Phelps
Lloyd T not listed
Clarence Snyder

For me it helps establish the veracity of the list.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

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++++Message 4892. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr.''s Opinion
From: David LeBlanc . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/19/2008 12:01:00 AM

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In the Dr's opinion
in the Big book he
describes a patient
that accepted the ideas
in this book and
returned a year later a
changed man. In the
original letter the Dr.
identified the patient
as Bill W. Does anyone
know who made this
change and when?
David

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++++Message 4893. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Dr.''s Opinion
From: Jay Lawyer . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/19/2008 1:44:00 PM

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If I am not mistaken in this particular passage
the Doctor is/was talking about Henry Parkhurst.

Jay Lawyer <ejlawyer@midtel.net>

- - - -

Message 4892 from "David LeBlanc"
<Inkman3@webtv.net> (Inkman3 at webtv.net)

In the Dr's opinion in the Big book he
describes a patient that accepted the ideas
in this book and returned a year later a
changed man. In the original letter the Dr.
identified the patient as Bill W. Does anyone
know who made this change and when?
David

- - - -

From the moderator:

Yeah, this would have to be Hank Parkhurst.

I think David is getting Bill Wilson (who
is talked about on pages xxv and xxvii)
confused with the two people who appear
on page xxxi: Hank Parkhurst and Fitz Mayo.

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

THE DOCTOR'S OPINION (began on page 1 in the
first edition of the Big Book, begins on
page xxv in the present fourth edition)

(p. xxv-xxxii) the well known doctor was Dr.
William D. Silkworth, who worked at Towns
Hospital in New York City.

(p. xxv) the patient he regarded as hopeless
was Bill Wilson.

(p. xxvi) "We believe and so so suggested a
few years ago" in an article in the Lancet
in 1937.

(p. xxvii) "many years' experience" meant
nine years that Dr. Silkworth had been there.

(p. xxvii) "one of the leading contributors to
this book" referred to Bill Wilson.

(p. xxxi) the man brought in to be treated
for chronic alcoholism was Hank Parkhurst.
His story "The Unbeliever" appeared in the
1st ed.

(p. xxxi) the man who had hidden in a barn
was Fitz Mayo. His story in the BB is "Our
Southern Friend."

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++++Message 4894. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill W. on predators in AA
From: Roger K . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/19/2008 5:21:00 PM

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I have a group member who is looking for a
reference to "Predators in AA". Does anybody
know if Bill W. talked about emotional,
financial, sexual, etc. predators in AA with
a reference on dealing with same?

Roger K

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++++Message 4895. . . . . . . . . . . . Second Edition Big Book Codes
From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/19/2008 9:20:00 PM

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A new friend piqued my interest in the codes
that appear on the back flaps of the Second
Edition Big Book dust jackets [DJ].

I did some investigating and put together the
following incomplete table:

Code A.A. Membership,
Front Flap
1st
2nd
3rd 250k
4th 300k
5th 300k
6th 50M663 (C) 300k
7th 50M365 (C) 350k
8th 50M666 (C) 300k
9th 60M11/67 (C) 350K
10th 60M4/69 (C) 400k
11th 65M9/70 (C) 475k
12th 40M3/71 (C) 475k
13th 100M1/72 (C) 500k
14th 100M2/73 (C) 575k
15th 650k
16th

I have been told that there are no codes for
the first five and last two.

It has been suggested that the number preceding
the M in the code is the number in thousands
of books printed in that printing.

The numbers were gleaned from DJs in my collec-
tion plus info from friends. Unfortunately,
many of my DJs are facsimiles and don't have
the codes.

Is it accurate that just the 6th thru the
14th have codes?

Would someone provide the membership numbers
for the three printings missing them? Are
the other numbers correct?

Answers will be appreciated.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

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++++Message 4896. . . . . . . . . . . . Fulton Oursler
From: Peter Tippett . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/21/2008 5:49:00 PM

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Can anybody give me a "Reader's Digest" (no pun
intended) version of how Fulton Ourlser became
such an advocate of early AA and any influences
he may have had on AA?

Thanks,
Pete Tippett

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++++Message 4897. . . . . . . . . . . . Citadel
From: Gary Becktell . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/21/2008 4:28:00 AM

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Below is a paragraph from "Dr. Bob And the
Good Old-timers." What is the "Citadel"?

"The word got out that there were a bunch of
fools who wouldn't give you anything for food
or a bed, but they would give you some change
if you wanted a drink. They began to trust us,
and we got three fellows in the Citadel. It
so happened that the first one we got sober
was the son of a Salvation Army couple, and
they thought we were wonderful."

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++++Message 4898. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Member introduction and group
response
From: johnlaurance1 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/20/2008 6:21:00 PM

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--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,
"Michael G." <gildell@...> wrote:
>
> I can speak to the situation in the greater
> Boston area. Prior to the summer of 1976,
> individuals seldom would respond to an
> introduction in most groups.

In central Pennsylvania there was no response
to the introduction until the very early '80's.

Now, Overeaters Anonymous was another matter.
They were not only "Hi"-ing back, they were
requiring that members introduce themselves
over and over, complete with the return "Hi's"
every time they opened their mouths. I found
it really excessive and unnecessary.

> The Young
> People's international of 1976 in Philadelphia
> seemed to serve as a real "jump start" for
> the practice. Within a year of that conference,
> it was not uncommon to hear "Hi xxx" in
> response to an introduction at many groups
> in the Boston area.

Thank you. I didn't know that. In Pennsylvania
we were told it was "the California Style". We
were supposedly doing things the way they were
done in California.

> As I recall, when I was first sober in Chicago,
> and later in central Illinois in '73 - '75 no
> one would respond to an introduction by saying
> hi.

Ditto in Pennsylvania.

> Q. Can you describe something that's changed
> since you've been in A.A.?

There was no "ninety in ninety", since in those
days there weren't meetings every day.

No special things were done for newcomers. My
first meeting was step 6. I sat and listened.

By the early '80's if a newcomer came in, we'd
discuss step one. If a newcomer was doing
ninety in ninety and going to a meeting every
day, anyone else going to that same meeting
would be doing step one over and over and over.

Johnny L.

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++++Message 4899. . . . . . . . . . . . Re:Bill W. on predators in AA
From: Nicole . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/20/2008 6:44:00 PM

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Yes, page 69 which covers our sexual inventory.
If an alcoholic continues to harm others, then
we are sure to drink...this is our experience.

Nicole

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++++Message 4900. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr.''s Opinion
From: Sober186@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/20/2008 6:16:00 PM

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David:

An "Original Manuscript" of the Big Book is
sold in the gift shop at Dr. Bob's house in
Akron. The publication sold claims to be
"an exact reproduction of Clarence Snyder's"
(The Home Brewmeister's) copy of the manuscript
used to compile the Big Book.

By the way, in this Doctor's Opinion, there are
no names used. Even the doctor's name is not
used.

The doctor writes: "About four years ago,
one of the leading contributors to this book
came under our care in this hospital"......etc.
(Page 2, Paragraph 6.)

That is as close as it comes to naming any
names.

The doctor also describes what happened with a
man brought to the hospital who had been living
in a barn, and the says the man became "sold"
on the ideas in this book and did not have a
drink for three years. But again, there is no
name used. (Page 6, paragraph 6.)

Love and Serve

Jim L.

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++++Message 4901. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Citadel
From: James Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/22/2008 4:05:00 PM

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> Below is a paragraph from "Dr. Bob And the
> Good Old-timers." What is the "Citadel"?

Salvation Army building

Jim Blair

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++++Message 4902. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: 2nd Edition Printings
From: lqd8rflp@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/21/2008 12:28:00 PM

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Here is a complete listing of 2nd Edition
printings that came from Frank Mauser some
years ago.

PRINTING DATE COPIES MEMBERS GROUPS
1st 7/55 40,000 150,000 6,000
2nd 5/57 40,000 150,000 6,000
3rd 1959 40,000 250,000 7,000
4th 1960 40,000 300,000 8,000
5th 4/62 40,000 300,000 9,000
6th 6/63 50,000 300,000 10,000
7th 3/65 50,000 350,000 11,000
8th 6/66 50,000 350,000 12,000
9th 11/67 60,000 350,000 12,000
10th 4/69 60,000 425,000 14,000
11th 9/70 65,000 475,000 15,000
12th 3/71 40,000 475,000 15,000
13th 1/72 100,000 500,000 16,000
14th 2/73 100,000 575,000 18,000
15th 1973 150,000 575,000 18,000
16th 1974 150,000 725,000 22,000

Regards,
John

JOHN HAGER
CELL-317-504-7397
E-MAIL-LQD8RFLP@AOL.COM

- - - -

From: lester gother <lgother@optonline.net>
(lgother at optonline.net)

Tom
This is what I have to add from my collection The code for the 4th
printing is as follows: 50m-663(c) There is no code on the first 3
printings as they were published by A.A. Publishing Inc., and the 4th
printing was the first to be published by A.A. World Services, Inc. The
9th printing I have states 50m-11/67 (c), The rest I believe to be
correct. Hope this helps Tom.

Service
Lester Gother
Northern New Jersey

- - - -

From: DudleyDobinson@aol.com
(DudleyDobinson at aol.com)

Hi Tommy, I have a complete collection of?Second editions?with original DJ's
and
your list of Third through Fifteenth matches mine. The First & Second both
give
membership at 150,000 whilst the Sixteenth shows 725,000.
One point of interest: the Third printing had an error in stating that it
was
for the THIRD edition. Consequently the majority was sold with no DJ's and
One
with is a collector's item and very expensive.

In fellowship - Dudley

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++++Message 4903. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Citadel
From: Marsha Finley . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/21/2008 4:57:00 PM

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The Citadel is a military college in South
Carolina. It is also one the colleges con-
sidered an "Ivy league" of the South.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Citadel_(Military_College)

- - - -

-----Original Message-----

Below is a paragraph from "Dr. Bob And the
Good Old-timers." What is the "Citadel"?

"The word got out that there were a bunch of
fools who wouldn't give you anything for food
or a bed, but they would give you some change
if you wanted a drink. They began to trust us,
and we got three fellows in the Citadel. It
so happened that the first one we got sober
was the son of a Salvation Army couple, and
they thought we were wonderful."

- - - -

From the moderator:

The above passage is from page 248 in Dr. Bob
and the Good Oldtimers. It is describing
events in Cleveland, Ohio (not Charlestown,
South Carolina) in 1942.

It is describing how the early Cleveland AA's
started standing outside the Salvation Army
and giving people a nickle or a dime to buy
a drink or some cigarettes. They figured
they had to get people's trust first.

They finally got three men to trust them
enough to let them bring them into the Citadel
(the Salvation Army building), where the
good Salvation Army people could start
carrying out the sobering up process on
them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvation_Army_corps

"A Salvation Army corps is a church and place
of worship in The Salvation Army. In keeping
with Salvationist convention in using military
terminology, corps are casually known as
barracks. Many corps are additionally called
temples or citadels.

I was able to find a web page for the Akron,
Ohio, Salvation Army Citadel (with a photo of
the building) at:

http://www.use.salvationarmy.org/use/www_use_neo.nsf/ce952dea4507ee7780256cf
4005\

d2254/36a9553c9ae1b69280256e3900674c2b?OpenDocument [10]

But I was unable to find a photo of the
Cleveland, Ohio, Salvation Army Citadel. Maybe
somebody in Cleveland could tell us what its
address was back in 1942.

Anyway, they weren't taking these down and
out winos and bums and enrolling them in an
elite military college. They were talking
them into the Salvation Army building where
the Salvation Army folks could start
detoxing them.

Glenn C., South Bend, Indiana

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++++Message 4904. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W. on predators in AA
From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/22/2008 7:12:00 PM

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That's actually page 70.

-----Original Message-----

Yes, page 69 which covers our sexual inventory.
If an alcoholic continues to harm others, then
we are sure to drink...this is our experience.

Nicole

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++++Message 4905. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Bill W. on predators in AA
From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/23/2008 12:57:00 PM

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Dr Bob wrote "... we naturally have had our
share of those who fail to measure up to
certain obvious standards of conduct. They
have included schemers for personal gain,
petty swindlers and confidence men, crooks
of various kinds, and other human fallibles.
Relatively, their number has been small ...
yet they have been a problem and not an easy
one. They have caused many an AA to stop
thinking and working contructively for a time."

(Grapevine, September 1948, reprinted in
"Best of the Grapevine, volume 2).

- - - -

Original message:

I have a group member who is looking for a
reference to "Predators in AA". Does anybody
know if Bill W. talked about emotional,
financial, sexual, etc. predators in AA
with a reference on dealing with same?

Roger K

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++++Message 4906. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W. on predators in AA
From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/23/2008 4:56:00 PM

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There were people, believe it or not, whose
morals were bad and the respectable alcoholics
of that time shook their heads and said,
"surely these immoral people are going to
render us asunder." Little Red Riding Hood and
the bad wolves began to abound. Ah yes, could
our society last?

(Transcribed from tape. Chicago, Illinois,
February 1951).

I am sure that there are more references, but
I cannot find them at the moment.

- - - -

From the moderator: there is more about this
in Messages 50, 3562, 3568, and 3575.

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++++Message 4907. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Fulton Oursler
From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/24/2008 8:52:00 AM

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I don't know if this is helpful toward what
you are looking for but...

High Praise for the Charm
of Recovering Alcoholics

There are times when I wish I were an alcoholic.
I mean I wish I were a member of Alcoholics
Anonymous. The reason is that I consider the
AA people the most charming in the world.

Such is my considered opinion. As a journalist,
it has been my privilege to meet many people
who are considered charming. I number among my
friends stars and lesser lights on stage and
cinema; writers are my daily diet; I know
ladies and gentlemen of both political parties;
I have been entertained in the White House;
I've broken bread with kings, ambassadors and
ministers; and I say that I would prefer an
evening with my AA friends to any person I've
indicated.

I asked myself why I considered so charming
these alcoholic caterpillars who have found
their butterfly wings in AA. There are more
reasons than one, but I can name a few. The
AA people are what they are, and they are
what they were, because they are sensitive,
imaginative, possessed of a sense of humor,
an awareness of the universal truth. They are
sensitive, which means they are hurt easily,
and that helped them become alcoholics. But
when they found their restoration they are as
sensitive as ever; responsive to the beauty
and the truth and eager about the intangible
glories of this life. That makes them
charming companions.

They are possessed of a sense of universal
truth that is often new in their heart. This
fact that this at-one moment with God's universe
had never been awakened within them is the
reason they drink. They have found a power
greater than themselves, which they diligently
serve. And that gives them a charm that never
was elsewhere on the land and sea; it makes
you know that God is charming, because the AA
people reflect his mercy and forgiveness.

They are imaginative, and that helped make them
alcoholics. Some of them drank to flog their
imaginations onto greater efforts. Others
guzzled only to block out unendurable visions
that arose in their imaginations. But when
they found their restorations, their imagina-
tion is responsive to new incantations and
their talk abounds with color and might, and
that makes them charming companions, too.

They are possessed a sense of humor. Even in
their cups they have known to be damnably
funny. Often it was being forced to take
seriously the little and mean things of life
that made them seek their escape in the bottle.
But when they found their restoration, their
sense of humor finds a blessed freedom and they
are able to laugh at themselves, the very height
of self-conquest. Go to their meetings and
listen to their laughter. At what are they
laughing? At ghoulish memories over which
weaker souls would cringe in useless remorse.
And that makes them wonderful people to be with
by candlelight.

by Fulton Oursler

(Fulton Oursler was a magazine editor, religious
author, and Hollywood screenwriter, and was an
early Oxford Group member and friend to AA. He
passed away in the year 1952. His official
relationship with AA is as follows: Sept. 30,
1939, the very popular weekly Liberty Magazine,
headed by Fulton Oursler, carried a piece
titled "Alcoholics and God" by Morris Markey
(who was influenced to write the article by
Charles Towns). It generated about 800
inquiries from around the nation. Oursler
(author of The Greatest Story Ever Told) became
good friends with Bill W and later served as a
Trustee and member of the Grapevine editorial
board. In Oct. 1949, Dr. William D. Silkworth
and Fulton Oursler joined the Alcoholic
Foundation Board.)

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++++Message 4908. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Sybil C. & Tex
From: Alex H. . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/25/2008 2:09:00 PM

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> HI .. I have a good friend in Sybils daughter.
> I have been sending her copies of the informa-
> tion in here about her mother.

FYI, Sybil's husband, Bob C., is still alive.
My buddy, Matt M., tells me Bob's health has
been failing. Bob is still sponsoring Matt so
to speak. It seems like Matt is helping Bob
more than Bob is helping Matt though.

They were an amazing couple as Matt tells it.
Matt is somewhat amazing himself but don't
tell him I said so. :-)

Alex H.

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++++Message 4909. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: RE: Citadel
From: John Lee . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/25/2008 8:45:00 PM

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Glenn,

No such place as Charlestown, South Carolina.
The historic city which hosts The Citadel is
Charleston.

john lee

- - - -

Sorry, y'all.

Glenn

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++++Message 4910. . . . . . . . . . . . Photograph of AA people wearing Lone
Ranger masks
From: wsmaugham21 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/24/2008 12:07:00 PM

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Hello fellow Drunks!

Anyone out there have information on the photo
of the AA folks wearing Lone Ranger Masks, and
a web site where I might be able to get a copy
of it?

Love and Service, Dirk

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++++Message 4911. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Photograph of AA people wearing
Lone Ranger masks
From: Jonathan Rose . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/25/2008 9:28:00 PM

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From the moderator: there are apparently at
least two such photos, one showing some AA
members in Dayton, Ohio, and another showing
some AA members in Madison, Wisconsin. And
there was also apparently a third case where
masks like this were worn, for a television
show in Detroit, Michigan, in the 1950's.

- - - -

From: "jbuckrose" <jbuckrose1@mac.com>
(jbuckrose1 at mac.com)

Here's what you might be looking for. The web
source is:

http://www.texasdistrict5.com/history-in-photos.htm

The photo is about halfway down the webpage,
with the caption underneath:

"Dayton OH Members, 1942
Members wore masks: to protect their anonymity,
members of the Dayton, Ohio, AA chapter donned
masks while posing for the press in 1942."

in service,
Buck R.

- - - -

From: "Robert Stonebraker"
<rstonebraker212@insightbb.com>
(rstonebraker212 at insightbb.com)

One source is the "Archives Scrapbook - 1939
to 1942." There is a large picture of
Madison, Wisconsin, AAs wearing masks. This
huge, rather pricey, scrapbook ($75) makes
a wonderful display feature.

GSO Service material #M42, on page 8.

Bob S.

PS - I have seen a similar picture from Dayton,
Ohio.

- - - -

From: "JOHN WIKELIUS" <nov85@graceba.net>
(nov85 at graceba.net)

GSO sells two different scrapbooks of very old
news releases and I believe that you will find
those pictures in there.

- - - -

From: David Jones <jonesd926@aol.com>
(jonesd926 at aol.com)

I have this from the site silkworth.net ...
alas no photo.

*VI. Mr. Hope TV Show*

In the 1950's WWJ telecast a TV program called
"MR. HOPE" in which AA members appeared wearing
Lone Ranger masks who told their stories. The
masks were worn to protect their identities.
The program aired at noon on Sundays.

One of our current members (1998), Bill B., was
on the show a couple of times along with the
Police Commissioner and some Judges.

God bless
Dave

- - - -

From: Glenn C. <glennccc@sbcglobal.net>
(glennccc at sbcglobal.net)

http://www.hindsfoot.org/detr0.html on early
Detroit AA history:

RADIO PROGRAM

On March 5, 1945, Time magazine reported that
Detroit's WWJ radio station was running broad-
casts by AA members in a radio program called
"The Glass Crutch":

Alcoholics on the Air
Time, March 5, 1945

One of Detroit's citizens stepped up to the
microphone one night last week and told how he
had "hit bottom" as an alcoholic. To underline
his confession, some of the more melodramatic
and sordid aspects of his past were dramatized.
Then he told of his regeneration. Summed up
the Announcer: "Alcoholism is a disease ...
an obsession ... an allergy ... " The man who
"hit bottom" was the first in a parade of
anonymous Detroiters who will describe their
alcoholic pasts over WWJ every Saturday
(11:15-11:30 p.m. E.W.T.). The series is the
first sustained air flight of the famed orga-
nization called "Alcoholics Anonymous" (Time,
Oct. 23, 1944). Detroit AA's give credit for
the broadcast project to 62-year-old William
Edmund Scripps, big boss of the Detroit News
and WWJ. He was so impressed by AA's reform-
ation of a drunkard friend that he decided to
do what he could to boost the organization's
Detroit membership (now nearly 400).

THE MR. HOPE TV SHOW

In the 1950's WWJ telecast a TV program called
"Mr. Hope," aired at noon on Sundays, in which
AA members appeared wearing Lone Ranger masks
and told their stories. The masks were worn to
protect their identities.

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++++Message 4912. . . . . . . . . . . . Introduction as alcoholic and group
response
From: grault . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/28/2008 6:11:00 AM

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Thanks all. Responses vary widely, depending
on area of the country. In some areas the
identification "I'm xxx and I'm an alcoholic"
didn't arise until the 1960s or even more
recently, and the response "Hi, xxx" came later,
in the 70s or 80s. At the other extreme,
apparently in Quebec both the intro and the
group's response were universal at meetings as
early as the early 1950s.

Gerry R.
New Orleans

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++++Message 4914. . . . . . . . . . . . Seeking volunteers to help with AA
history search engine
From: George Ewing . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/7/2008 10:21:00 AM

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I've been a lurking member of this list for a couple
of years now. This is my first post, I think, in that
time.

I'm the webmaster of malverncenter.org, an AA
clubhouse in Malvern, PA. We are in the Philadelphia
suburbs and are blessed with a wide range of AA
meetings of all kinds. Our site gets a lot of traffic,
mostly from people looking for meeting times, as well
as phone numbers of treatment facilities and the like.

Because of this traffic, I've been trying to add
content to the site that is of a general nature about
AA, above and beyond meeting times. I've added a
Google Custom Search Engine that is dedicated to the
history of AA. Think of it as an invitation to search
terms specific to AA history.

Google allows me to solicit volunteers to contribute
to the search engine by adding relevant sites to its
results, and by labeling certain results with
appropriate comments. The volunteer is like a curator
of the search results.

If anyone is interested in contributing to the custom
search on our site, please email me off list at
facilities at malverncenter.org. Thank in advance for
any volunteers.

George

George Ewing <gedit123@yahoo.com> (gedit123 at yahoo.com)

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++++Message 4915. . . . . . . . . . . . Little Red Book
From: pbers_11 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/10/2008 4:36:00 PM

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I am looking for actual resources of the use
of the Little Red book in early years. I have
seen on the Web that "the AA foundation appoved
of its use" and I am trying to find resources
to support this.

Thank you

Yours in Service

Paula D

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++++Message 4916. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Little Red Book
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/11/2008 4:12:00 PM

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The Little Red Book was published by "the
Coll-Webb Co.," which meant that Barry Collins
(an important early figure in Minneapolis
A.A., who had gotten sober in A.A. on April
14, 1941) and Ed Webster were paying for
publishing it themselves. They were fellow
members of the Nicollet Group in Minneapolis.

A letter from Bobby Burger, the secretary at
the New York A.A. headquarters (then called
the Alcoholic Foundation), dated November 11,
1944, written to Barry Collins in Minneapolis,
gives their full approval to the idea of
Minneapolis publishing and using an A.A.
pamphlet or booklet which the Minneapolis
A.A. people had written themselves:

"Dear Barry:
. . . The Washington D.C. pamphlet and the
new Cleveland 'Sponsorship' pamphlet and a
host of others are all local projects. We do
not actually approve or disapprove of these
local pieces; by that I mean that the Founda-
tion feels each Group is entitled to write up
its own 'can opener' and let it stand on its
own merits. All of them have good points and
very few have caused any controversy. But as
in all things of a local nature, we keep hands
off, either pro or con. I think there must be
at least 25 local pamphlets now being used
and I've yet to see one that hasn't had some
good points. I think it is up to each indivi-
dual Group whether it wants to use and buy
these pamphlets from the Group that puts
them out.
Sincerely, Bobby (Margaret R. Burger)"

When The Little Red Book did come out, its use
in A.A. meetings had the full approval both
of Dr. Bob and the New York A.A. office. Dr.
Bob actually helped Ed Webster write it, as
we have already noted, but in addition, Jack
H. (Scottsdale AZ) has discovered from Ed
Webster's papers that Dr. Bob was sending
large numbers of copies of The Little Red
Book to A.A. groups in other parts of the
country. Jack H. has also discovered from Ed
Webster's papers that in the late 1940's, the
New York A.A. office was regularly ordering
quantities of The Little Red Book for resale
in New York.

Bill W. wrote Barry Collins about the
Minneapolis book in November 1950:

"The Little Red Book does fill a definite
need and has wide circulation. Therefore,
its usefulness is unquestioned. AA has a
definite place for such a book. Someday I
may try to write an introduction book myself
which I hope might complement favorably with
The Little Red Book. Here at the Foundation
we are not policemen; we're a service and
AAs are free to read any book they choose."
____________________

SOURCE: http://hindsfoot.org/ed01.html

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++++Message 4917. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Little Red Book
From: pbers_11 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/11/2008 4:26:00 PM

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In what resources have you found this data?

- - - -

Please read all of the article that was cited:

http://hindsfoot.org/ed01.html

Down towards the bottom it says:

"Bill Pittman, in the introduction to the
Hazelden Anniversary Edition (the reprinting
in 1996 of the 1949 edition of The Little Red
Book), gave the text of Bobby Burger's letter."

Jack H. (Scottsdale, Arizona) contacted the
New York AA Archives and discovered that Bill
Pittman had added one phrase to the letter
without indicating that he had added it:

"as is Nicollet’s 'An Interpretation
of the Twelve Steps'"

The version given on the Hindsfoot site is
the letter as Jack H. found it to be in the
New York AA Archives.

There is more about the Pittman Anniversary
Edition at:

http://hindsfoot.org/ed02.html
____________________

The other sources of this information:

Jack H. got Ed Webster's papers from Ed's
daughter, so much of the other information
comes from letters and billing information
and other documents in those papers: i.e.,
records of repeated orders from the New York
AA office for another box of copies of The
Little Red Book. Jack also has copies of
various editions of The Little Red Book with
handwritten suggestions from Dr. Bob for
rewording sentences or adding additional
comments. Jack H. also made a detailed
study of the Minneapolis AA archives, with
the help of a very good AA archivist there.

The text of the Bill W. letter about The
Little Red Book is also given in the Pittman
Anniversary Edition.

- - - -

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Glenn
Chesnut <glennccc@...> wrote:
>
> The Little Red Book was published by "the
> Coll-Webb Co.," which meant that Barry Collins
> (an important early figure in Minneapolis
> A.A., who had gotten sober in A.A. on April
> 14, 1941) and Ed Webster were paying for
> publishing it themselves. They were fellow
> members of the Nicollet Group in Minneapolis.
>
> A letter from Bobby Burger, the secretary at
> the New York A.A. headquarters (then called
> the Alcoholic Foundation), dated November 11,
> 1944, written to Barry Collins in Minneapolis,
> gives their full approval to the idea of
> Minneapolis publishing and using an A.A.
> pamphlet or booklet which the Minneapolis
> A.A. people had written themselves:
>
> "Dear Barry:
> . . . The Washington D.C. pamphlet and the
> new Cleveland 'Sponsorship' pamphlet and a
> host of others are all local projects. We do
> not actually approve or disapprove of these
> local pieces; by that I mean that the Founda-
> tion feels each Group is entitled to write up
> its own 'can opener' and let it stand on its
> own merits. All of them have good points and
> very few have caused any controversy. But as
> in all things of a local nature, we keep hands
> off, either pro or con. I think there must be
> at least 25 local pamphlets now being used
> and I've yet to see one that hasn't had some
> good points. I think it is up to each indivi-
> dual Group whether it wants to use and buy
> these pamphlets from the Group that puts
> them out.
> Sincerely, Bobby (Margaret R. Burger)"
>
> When The Little Red Book did come out, its use
> in A.A. meetings had the full approval both
> of Dr. Bob and the New York A.A. office. Dr.
> Bob actually helped Ed Webster write it, as
> we have already noted, but in addition, Jack
> H. (Scottsdale AZ) has discovered from Ed
> Webster's papers that Dr. Bob was sending
> large numbers of copies of The Little Red
> Book to A.A. groups in other parts of the
> country. Jack H. has also discovered from Ed
> Webster's papers that in the late 1940's, the
> New York A.A. office was regularly ordering
> quantities of The Little Red Book for resale
> in New York.
>
> Bill W. wrote Barry Collins about the
> Minneapolis book in November 1950:
>
> "The Little Red Book does fill a definite
> need and has wide circulation. Therefore,
> its usefulness is unquestioned. AA has a
> definite place for such a book. Someday I
> may try to write an introduction book myself
> which I hope might complement favorably with
> The Little Red Book. Here at the Foundation
> we are not policemen; we're a service and
> AAs are free to read any book they choose."
> ____________________
>
> SOURCE: http://hindsfoot.org/ed01.html
>

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++++Message 4918. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Little Red Book
From: Arthur Sheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/11/2008 6:47:00 PM

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There is an inconsistency here. Margaret R
Burger (AA's second National Secretary)
signed herself as "Bobbie" not "Bobby."

If there is a letter from her signed "Bobby"
it might not be genuine. I have a substantial
set of correspondence between her and Esther
E of Dallas. They are all signed "Bobbie."

Cheers
Arthur

- - - -

Arthur,

We need somebody to check the New York AA
Archives on BOTH of the letters which
Bill Pittman reproduced in the 1996
Hazelden Anniversary Edition of The Little
Red Book.

Bill Pittman said on the copyright page
that this was the:

"50th Anniversary edition 1996
(from 1946 edition published by
Coll-Webb Company, Minneapolis)"

but Jack H. (Scottsdale, Arizona) showed
that it was a reproduction of the 1949
edition, NOT the 1946 edition as Bill
Pittman claimed.

I have verified this by comparison with
a photocopy of the 1946 edition which
I was sent. See:

http://hindsfoot.org/ed02.html

Jack H. told me over the telephone that
he had checked with one of the archivists
at the New York AA Archives (also over the
telephone) and had discovered that Bill
Pittman had also inserted a phrase into
the Burger letter that was not in the
original:

"as is Nicollet's 'An Interpretation
of the Twelve Steps.'"

But the New York archivist reading the
original letter over the phone to Jack H.
would have pronounced "Bobby" and "Bobbie"
identically, so there would have been no
reason for Jack to have caught that.

Anyway, we KNOW that Bill Pittman was very
careless indeed in his preparation of
that anniversary edition.

The Foreword which Bill wrote runs from
page vii to page xviii.

The Burger letter is reproduced on pages
xiii-xiv. The Bill Wilson letter is on
pages xvi-xvii.

Again, someone with access to the New York
AA Archives needs to check the original
letters to make sure that we have accurate
copies to work from.

More than that, we need a good AA historian
to do a book on Ed Webster, somebody who
will take the time and care to check all
the documents out, and do a good scholarly
job.

At this point, I am committed to finishing
my book on Richmond Walker, the author of
the Twenty-Four book, and would not be able
to take on that additional task.

But Ed Webster was very important to the
fellowship, and very much deserves to have
a book written about him.

Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana)

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Glenn Chesnut
Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2008 3:12 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers group
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Little Red Book

The Little Red Book was published by "the
Coll-Webb Co.," which meant that Barry Collins
(an important early figure in Minneapolis
A.A., who had gotten sober in A.A. on April
14, 1941) and Ed Webster were paying for
publishing it themselves. They were fellow
members of the Nicollet Group in Minneapolis.

A letter from Bobby Burger, the secretary at
the New York A.A. headquarters (then called
the Alcoholic Foundation), dated November 11,
1944, written to Barry Collins in Minneapolis,
gives their full approval to the idea of
Minneapolis publishing and using an A.A.
pamphlet or booklet which the Minneapolis
A.A. people had written themselves:

"Dear Barry:
. . . The Washington D.C. pamphlet and the
new Cleveland 'Sponsorship' pamphlet and a
host of others are all local projects. We do
not actually approve or disapprove of these
local pieces; by that I mean that the Founda-
tion feels each Group is entitled to write up
its own 'can opener' and let it stand on its
own merits. All of them have good points and
very few have caused any controversy. But as
in all things of a local nature, we keep hands
off, either pro or con. I think there must be
at least 25 local pamphlets now being used
and I've yet to see one that hasn't had some
good points. I think it is up to each indivi-
dual Group whether it wants to use and buy
these pamphlets from the Group that puts
them out.
Sincerely, Bobby (Margaret R. Burger)"

When The Little Red Book did come out, its use
in A.A. meetings had the full approval both
of Dr. Bob and the New York A.A. office. Dr.
Bob actually helped Ed Webster write it, as
we have already noted, but in addition, Jack
H. (Scottsdale AZ) has discovered from Ed
Webster's papers that Dr. Bob was sending
large numbers of copies of The Little Red
Book to A.A. groups in other parts of the
country. Jack H. has also discovered from Ed
Webster's papers that in the late 1940's, the
New York A.A. office was regularly ordering
quantities of The Little Red Book for resale
in New York.

Bill W. wrote Barry Collins about the
Minneapolis book in November 1950:

"The Little Red Book does fill a definite
need and has wide circulation. Therefore,
its usefulness is unquestioned. AA has a
definite place for such a book. Someday I
may try to write an introduction book myself
which I hope might complement favorably with
The Little Red Book. Here at the Foundation
we are not policemen; we're a service and
AAs are free to read any book they choose."
____________________

SOURCE: http://hindsfoot.org/ed01.html

Yahoo! Groups Links

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++++Message 4919. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Little Red Book
From: Lynn Sawyer . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/11/2008 8:17:00 PM

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Lynn Sawyer <sawyer7952@yahoo.com>
(sawyer7952 at yahoo.com)

Hi.

Lynn Sawyer here, from Sacramento, California
now, but originally from Minneapolis,
Minnesota area. I got sober on the Little
Red Book and other A.A. literature.

I didn't realize the Little Red Book was a
local [Minneapolis] publication. Thanks
again for your wealth of information for us
alkies.

Lynn

- - - -

From: "Don Cobb" <don@doncobb.com>
(don at doncobb.com)

I remember when some of our local AAers were
ADAMANT about 15 years ago, that we were NOT
to support "a private company" by buying it.
It was frowned on big time and in fact,
people were outright confrontational about
it, openly and angrily so.

So it's interesting to me to see that Dr. Bob
approved it.

Don C.

- - - -

From Glenn C. <glennccc@sbcglobal.net>
(glennccc at sbcglobal.net)

Jack H. (who has Ed Webster's papers) says
that after Ed's death in 1971, his widow
transferred the rights to The Little Red
Book to Hazelden, to make sure the book
stayed in print.

Looking at the copyright pages of old
copies of The Little Red Book, it looks
like the transfer could have taken place
a little earlier (i.e. before 1971), but
Hazelden has always been careless about
the dates they put down for the copyright
date of their editions of early AA books.

But as you note, in the early years, The
Little Red Book was published in Minneapolis
by Ed Webster and Barry Collins, under
the sponsorship of the Nicollet Group in
that city.

Glenn C.

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++++Message 4920. . . . . . . . . . . . Background on Concept 4
From: Joseph Tandl . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/12/2008 11:18:00 PM

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Friends,

I have been asked to write a short article
(i.e. 300 words) for an AA Area newsletter on
Concept 4. Googling and searching this list's
archive revealed only the illustrated brochure
on the 12 concepts.

I would be grateful for pointers to informa-
tion about the history of and reason for
this particular concept and anything that
would make writing about it informative and
memorable.

Thanks, Joseph
Canberra, Australia

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++++Message 4921. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Background on Concept 4
From: Dolores . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/13/2008 5:27:00 PM

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Hi, I found 2 Grapevine articles on the
Concepts. One is from January, 1995 and the
article is called "The mystery of the secret
12 (Concepts)" and the other one from January
1993, " Does your group use the Concepts?"

Nell Wings book "Glad to have been there"
also has a Chapter on the Concepts.

I have been very interested in the Concepts
too and Find them very important for service
work. The Concepts carry Bill W. signature.

Yours in AA

Dolores - Archives Continetal EuropeanRegion

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++++Message 4922. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr. Percy Poliak
From: Lance . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/15/2008 4:04:00 PM

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Hi group!

Does anyone have any info on Dr. Percy Poliak?

He gave the "2nd Doctor's Opinion" in the Big
Book in Chapt. 3, "More About Alcoholism,"
page 43. (It is only one paragraph long!)

Thanks, and God's blessings!

Lance, from colorful Colorado!

- - - -

From the moderator: for additional background,
see

http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/BBWhoWhat.htm

http://www.justloveaudio.com/resources/Assorted/Big_Book_Name_and_Date_Refer
ence\

s.pdf [11]

page 43: staff member world renowned hospital
was Dr. Percy Poliak at Bellevue Hospital,
New York

page 43: "two of you men, whose stories I
have heard," unknown.

Dr. Percy Poliak -- San Francisco psychiatrist
was with Bellevue Hospital New York then
San Francisco Country Hospital, impressed
with A.A., gave A.A. group full support
(Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age page 88)

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++++Message 4923. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Little Red Book
From: Bruce A. Johanson . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/12/2008 7:50:00 PM

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I also found God in Minneapolis (though I
heard he is throughout the world hee hee)
with the Little Red Book many years ago.

That and Stools and Bottles is mostly what we
used for literature while Big Books gathered
dust on the shelves. That is sometimes seen
as rather blasphemous these days.

What amazed me was finding out about "The
Nicollet Group" long after I had moved from
Minneapolis. I and a few friends used to
visit different groups once a week never
hearing a word about this group. I have
heard they are listed now with the Minne-
apolis Intergroup.

Bruce

- - - -

NOTE: In Minneapolis, Minnesota, Ed Webster
published "The Little Red Book" in 1946 under
the sponsorship of the Nicollet Group. Ed
also wrote "Stools and Bottles" (1955),
"Barroom Reveries" (1958), and "Our Devilish
Alcoholic Personalities" (in 1970, just a
year before his death). In early A.A., Ed was
one of the four most widely read A.A. authors.

- - - -

FROM: "bob" <bsdds@comcast.net>
(bsdds at comcast.net)

It is amazing to me the passion which so many
grasp onto the idea of "conference approved
literature." In my early sobriety I was living
in the "pink cloud" for many years and it has
only been in my retirement that I have become
fascinated with the history and the HUMANNESS
of these men and women.

Learning of the travails of the founders and
the huge part that people like Henry Parkhurst
played makes this thing so much more real. I
could never go to a movie based on this site
and enjoy it as much as I do reading and
"listening" to y'alls discussions.

Thanks for the Warmth.

bob s
goin' on 32

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++++Message 4924. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Little Red Book
From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/12/2008 8:59:00 PM

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>
> >From Glenn C. <glennccc@sbcglobal.net>
>(glennccc at sbcglobal.net)
>
>Jack H. (who has Ed Webster's papers) says
>that after Ed's death in 1971, his widow
>transferred the rights to The Little Red
>Book to Hazelden, to make sure the book
>stayed in print.
>
>Looking at the copyright pages of old
>copies of The Little Red Book, it looks
>like the transfer could have taken place
>a little earlier (i.e. before 1971), but
>Hazelden has always been careless about
>the dates they put down for the copyright
>date of their editions of early AA books.
>
>But as you note, in the early years, The
>Little Red Book was published in Minneapolis
>by Ed Webster and Barry Collins, under
>the sponsorship of the Nicollet Group in
>that city.
>
>Glenn C.
>

The first Hazelden publication of the Little
Red Book was some time in the 1960s and was
as best I can tell the little volume with
rounded corners. As Glenn points out,
Hazelden was not good at putting useful
information on printing and copyrights in
these early books.

This printing has a 1957 copyright by
Coll-Webb but has the Hazelden logo and
address [Central City, Minn 55012] on the
full title page. The use of a zip code
indicates the date was 1963 or later.

There are seven different small format LRBs
with the 1957 copyright. I believe the
rounded corner one was the first as Hazelden
started publishing two other books around the
same time and the first ones of these series
had rounded corners, Richmond Walker's 24
Hours a Day book and Stools and Bottles. No
copyrights are indicated in the 24 Hour book
and there are at least two printings w/o zip
codes and four with zips. The rounded corner
S&B has a 1955 copyright held by Coll-Webb.

The Hazelden logo started appearing in the
larger format, Coll-Webb printings of the
LRB in the form of a sticker on the full
title page starting with the twenty-second
printing in 1968, so it may be that the LRB
was turned over to Hazelden prior to Webster's
death in 1971, not that it makes any difference
to anyone but we collectors. The 23rd thru
25th printings had the Hazelden logo printed
on the full title page.

ISBNs were used in some of the latter LRBs
but not in the rounded corner 24 Hour books
that I know of. I believe ISBNs started in
1968.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

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++++Message 4925. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Background on Concept 4
From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/15/2008 8:59:00 AM

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Joseph Tandl (Canberra, Australia) wrote:
>
> I have been asked to write a short article
> (i.e. 300 words) for an AA Area newsletter on
> Concept 4. Googling and searching this list's
> archive revealed only the illustrated brochure
> on the 12 concepts.
>
> I would be grateful for pointers to informa-
> tion about the history of and reason for
> this particular concept and anything that
> would make writing about it informative and
> memorable.

- - - -

From: Bill Lash <barefootbill@optonline.net>
(barefootbill at optonline.net)

Please go to http://www.justloveaudio.com
and click on "free resources". There is
a lot of info on the 12 Concepts & the 12
Traditions. It also has a large amount of
info/exercises/guides on all of the 12 Steps
too. Peace.

Just Love,
Barefoot Bill

- - - -

From: "Debi Ubernosky" <dkuber1990@verizon.net>
(dkuber1990 at verizon.net)

Dear friend,

All of the Concepts are in the AA Service
Manual, which you can download from the AA
website at

http://www.aa.org/en_services_for_members.cfm?PageID=101.

Happy reading!

Debi Ubernosky (service crazy alkie!)
DOS: 11-25-1990
by God's grace and because AA works!

Wait, my apologies, I should have referenced
the service material that is on Australia's
AA website:
http://www.aa.org.au/members/index.php?nav=mb

Here's the link to Australia's AA Service Manual:
http://www.aa.org.au/materials/materials_service_manual.php?nav=mb

Here's a diagram of your service structure:
http://www.aa.org.au/materials/materials_national_structure.php

Your local DCM or Area Delegate would be a
wonderful resource to get some personal input
on the Concepts.

Enjoy!

Debi

- - - -

From: Hugh Hyatt <hughhyatt@bluehen.udel.edu>
(hughhyatt at bluehen.udel.edu)

I've found the A.A. Grapevine Digital Archive
to be great too for finding information on
such topics: http://www.aagrapevine.org/da/

- - - -

From: "Lee Nickerson" <snowlily@megalink.net>

I have been active in Service at the Area Level and Central
Office for most of my sobriety. Especially at Central Office, I found
that a knowledge of the Concepts was an essential tool. Invaluable,
is a better way to say it. They are certainly a lesson in our history
and are as relevant today as when they were written. Bill's struggles
to have them become a part of us is also a fascinating story.

The Concepts have guided us over many threatening issues and
controversies since their creation. As I read through them I am ever
reminded of Bill's great visionary gift and where that gift came
from. Whenever I am asked to speak about them I never fail to remind
the listeners to read Bill's Essay on Leadership: to me, one of the
finest guides to being an AA leader (or a leader anywhere) that has
ever been written. It is so simple, so direct and so useable.

The Concepts can be used anywhere in the AA service structure,
from the Group to the Conference. The idea that we all have a voice,
the premise that we just must make decisions, the guidance that we
can't expect someone to take a responsibility in AA without
concurrently handing them a certain authority - all these things are
applicable at any level of Alcoholics Anonymous. A thorough knowledge
of the Concepts has given me the precious gift of being able to
survive and appreciate some of the volatile and controversial
decision made at the General Service Office, the Conference, and even
at my Home Group. It is my belief that if all of us had a first-hand
grasp of them, our grasp on our history and our AA Service life would
be easier and more fruitful.

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++++Message 4926. . . . . . . . . . . . Lee T''s Foreword to Chuck C., "A
New Pair of Glasses"
From: kcb007_99 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/16/2008 1:08:00 AM

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What can anyone tell me about "Lee T." who
wrote a Foreword to "A New Pair of Glasses"
by Chuck C.?

Any background information you have about
"Lee T." and his writing of a Foreword in
Chuck C.'s book would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance for any help you can give.

- - - -

From the moderator: I assume you have seen
Message 139 from Nancy Olson

"Chuck Chamberlain's Testimony Before a U.S.
Senate Subcommittee, 1969"

Chuck Chamberlain: was born in 1902, and got
sober in A.A. in January 1946. He wrote a
book called "A New Pair Of Glasses" which
is a transcript of a retreat he gave for
alcoholics in 1975. The Preface is written
by Clancy I. of California. It can be
purchased through New-Look Publishing Co.,
1960 Fairchild, Irvine, California 92715.
His son [Richard] became a famous actor.
Chuck died in 1984.

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++++Message 4927. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill W''s Proposal For 12 Concepts
For World Service
From: James Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/15/2008 4:17:00 PM

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Proposal by Bill W. For Twelve Concepts
For World Service

10th General Service Conference – 1960

This proposal, delivered by Bill W. at the closing of the 10th General
Service
Conference is of great historical significance as it was the first time that
Bill had spoken to the Fellowship on the subject of the Twelve Concepts.

The original transcript has been retyped for clarity and has been verified
against the voice recording.

-------------------------------------------

The last of the sand in the hourglass of our time together is about to run
its
course. And you have asked me, as of old, to conclude this conference, our
tenth.

I always approach this hour with mixed feelings. As time has past, each year
succeeding itself, I have found increasing gratitude beyond measure, because
of
the increasing sureness that A.A. is safe at last for God, so long as he may
wish this society to endure.

So I stand here among you and feel as you do a sense of security and
gratitude
such as we have never known before. There is not a little regret, too, that
the
other side of the coin -— that we cannot turn back the clock and renew
these
hours. Soon they will become a part of our history.

The three legacies of A.A. -- recovery, unity and service -- in a sense
represent three utter impossibilities, impossibilities that we know became
possible, and possibilities that now have borne this unbelievable fruit. Old
Fitzmayo, one of the early A.A.”s and I visited the Surgeon General of the
United States in the third year of this society, told him of our beginnings.
He
was a gentle man, Dr. Lawrence Kolb, since become a great friend of A.A.,
and he
said: ”I wish you well. Even the sobriety of such a few is almost a
miracle. The
government knows that this is one of the greatest health problems we have,
one
of the greatest moral problems, one of the greatest spiritual problems. But
we
here have considered recovery of alcoholics so impossible that we have given
up
and have instead concluded that rehabilitation of narcotic addicts would be
the
easier job to tackle.”

Such was the devastating impossibility of our situation.

Now, what had been brought to bear upon this impossibility that it has
become
possible? First, the Grace of Him who presides over all of us. Next, the
cruel
lash of John Barleycorn who said, “This you must do, or die.” Next, the
intervention of God through friends, at first a few, and now legion, who
opened
to us, who in the early days were uncommitted, the whole field of human
ideas,
morality and religion, from which we could choose.

These have been the wellsprings of the forces and ideas and emotions and
spirit
which were first fused into our Twelve Steps for recovery. And some of us
got
well. But no sooner had a few got sober then the old forces began to come
into
play. In us rather frail people, they were fearsome: the old forces, the
drives,
money, acclaim, prestige.

Would these tear us apart? Besides, we came from every walk of life. Early,
we
had begun to be a cross section of all men and women, all differently
conditioned, all so different and yet happily so alike in our kinship of
suffering. Could we hold in unity? To those few who remain who lived in
those
earlier times when the Traditions were being forged in the school of hard
experience on its thousands of anvils, we had our very, very dark moments.

It was sure recovery was in sight, but how could there be recovery for many?
Or
how could recovery endure if we were to fall into controversy and so into
dissolution and decay? Well, the spirit of the Twelve Steps, which has
brought
us release, from one of the grimmest obsessions known -- obviously, this
spirit
and these principles of retaining Grace had to be the fundamentals of our
unity.
But in order to become fundamental to our unity, these principles had to be
spelled out as they applied to the most prominent and the most grievous of
our
problems.

So, out of experience, the need to apply the spirit of our steps to our
lives of
working and living together, these were the forces that generated the
Traditions
of Alcoholics Anonymous.

But, we had to have more than cohesion. Even for survival, we had to carry
this
message. We had to function. In fact, that had become evident in the Twelve
Steps themselves for the last one enjoins us to carry the message. But just
how
would we carry this message? How would we communicate, we few, with those
myriad’s who still didn’t know? And how would this communication be
handled? And
how could we do these things, how could we authorize these things in such a
way
that in this new hot focus of effort and ego we were not again to be
shattered
by the forces that had once ruined our lives?

This was the problem of the Third Legacy. From the vital Twelfth Step call
right
up through our society to its culmination today. And, again, many of us
said:
This can’t be done. It’s all very well for Bill and Bob and a few
friends to set
up a Board of Trustees and to provide us with some literature, and look
after
our public relations, and do all of those chores for us we can’t do for
ourselves. This is fine, but we can’t go any further than that. This is a
job
for our elders. This is a job for our parents. In this direction only can
there
be simplicity and security.

And then we came to the day when it was seen that the parents were both
fallible
and perishable (although this seems to be a token they are not). And Dr.
Bob’s
hour struck. And we suddenly realized that this ganglion, this vital nerve
center of World Service, would lose its sensation the day the communication
between an increasingly unknown Board of Trustees and you was broken. Fresh
links would have to be forged. And at that time many of us said: This is
impossible. This is too hard. Even in transacting the simplest business,
providing the simplest of services, raising the minimum amounts of money,
these
excitements to us, in this society so bent on survival have been almost too
much
locally. Look at our club brawls. My God, if we have elections countrywide,
and
Delegates come down here, and look at the complexity -- thousands of group
representatives, hundreds of committeemen, scores of Delegates -— My God,
when
these descend on our parents, the Trustees, what is going to happen then? It
won’t be simplicity; it can’t be. Our experience has spelled it out.

But there was the imperative, the must. And why was there an imperative?
Because
we had better have some confusion, we had better have some politicking, than
to
have an utter collapse of this center. That was the alternative. And that
was
the uncertain and tenuous ground on which this Conference was called into
being.

I venture, in the minds of many, sometimes in mine, the Conference could be
symbolized by a great prayer and a faint hope. This was the state of affairs
in
1945 to 1950. And then came the day that some of us went up to Boston to
watch
an Assembly elect by two thirds vote or lot a Delegate. And prior to the
Assembly, I consulted all the local politicos and those very wise Irishmen
in
Boston said, we’re gonna make your prediction Bill, you know us
temperamentally,
but we’re going to say that this thing is going to work. And it was the
biggest
piece of news and one of the mightiest assurances that I had up to this time
that there could be any survival for these services.

Well, work it has, and we have survived another impossibility. Not only have
we
survived the impossibility, we have so far transcended it that I think that
there can be no return in future years to the old uncertainties, come what
perils there may.

Now, as we have seen in this quick review, the spirit of the Twelve Steps
was
applied in specific terms to our problems, to living, to working together.
This
developed the Traditions. In turn, the Traditions were applied to this
problem
of functioning at world levels in harmony and in unity.

And something which had seemed to grow like Topsy took on an increasing
coherence. And through the process of trial and error, refinements began to
be
made until the day of the great radical change. Our question here in the old
days was: Is the group conscience for Trustees and for founders? Or are they
to
be the parents of Alcoholics Anonymous forever? There is something a little
repugnant --you know, They got it through us, why can’t we go on telling
them?

So the great problem, could the group conscience function at world levels?
Well,
it can and it does. Today we are still in this process of definition and of
refinement in this matter of functioning. Unlike the Twelve Steps and the
Twelve
Traditions which no doubt will be undisturbed from here out, there will
always
be room in the functional area for refinements, improvements, adaptations.
For
God’s sake, let us never freeze these things. On the other hand, let us
look at
yesterday and today, at our experience. Now, just as it was vital to codify
in
Twelve Steps the spiritual side of our program, to codify in twelve
traditional
principles the forces and ideas that would make for unity, and discourage
disunity, so may it now be necessary to codify, those principles and
relationships upon which our world service function rests, from the group
right
up through.

This is what I like to call structuring. People often say, What do you mean
by
structuring? What use is it? Why don’t we just get together and do these
things?
Well, structure at this level means just what structure means in the Twelve
Steps and in the Twelve Traditions. It is a stated set of principles and
relationships by which we may understand each other, the tasks to be done
and
what the principles are for doing them. Therefore, why shouldn’t we take
the
broad expanse of the Traditions and use their principles to spell out our
special needs in relationships in this area of function for world service,
indeed, at long last, I trust for all services whatever character?

Well, we’ve been in the process of doing this and two or three years ago
it
occurred to me that I should perhaps take another stab --not at another
batch of
twelve principles or points, God forbid, but at trying to organize the ideas
and
relationships that already exist so as to present them in an easily
understood
manner.

As you know the Third Legacy Manual is a manual that largely tells us how;
it is
mostly a thing of mere description and of procedure. So I have cooked up in
a
very tentative way something which we might call Twelve Concepts for World
Service. This has been a three-year job. I found the material, because of
its
ramifications, exceedingly hard to organize. But I have made a stab at it
and
the Concepts, which are really bundles of related principles, are on paper
and
underneath each is a descriptive article. And I have eleven of the articles
and
perhaps will soon wind up the Twelfth.

Now, to give you an idea of what’s cooking, what I’ve been driving at,
I’ll
venture to bore you with two or three paragraphs of the introduction to this
thing.

“The Concepts to be discussed in the following pages are primarily an
interpretation of A.A.’s world service structure. They spell out the
traditional
practices and the Conference charter principles that relate the component
parts
of our world structure into a working whole. Our Third Legacy manual is
largely
a document of procedure. Up to now the Manual tells us how to operate our
service structure. But there is considerable lack of detailed information
which
would tell us why the structure has developed as it has and why its working
parts are related together in the fashion that our Conference and General
Service Board charters provide.

“These Twelve Concepts therefore represent an attempt to put on paper the
why of
our service structure in such a fashion that the highly valuable experience
of
the past and the conclusions that we have drawn from it cannot be lost.

“These Concepts are no attempt to freeze our operation against needed
change.
They only describe the present situation, the forces and principles that
have
molded it. It is to be remembered that in most respects the Conference
charter
can be readily amended. This interpretation of the past and present can,
however, have a high value for the future. Every oncoming generation of
service
workers will be eager to change and improve our structure and operations.
This
is good. No doubt change will be needed. Perhaps unforeseen flaws will
emerge.
These will have to be remedied.

But along with this very constructive outlook, there will be bound to be
still
another, a destructive one. We shall always be tempted to throw out the baby
with the bath water. We shall suffer the illusion that change, any plausible
change, will necessarily represent progress. When so animated, we may
carelessly
cast aside the hard won lessons of early experience and so fall back into
many
of the great errors of the past.

Hence, a prime purpose of these Twelve Concepts is to hold the experience
and
lessons of the early days constantly before us. This should reduce the
chance of
hasty and unnecessary change. And if alterations are made that happen to
work
out badly, then it is hoped that these Twelve Concepts will make a point of
safe
return.”

Now, quickly, what are they?

Well, the first two deal with: ultimate responsibility and authority for
world
services belongs to the A.A. group. That is to say, that’s the A.A.
conscience.

The next one deals with the necessity for delegates authority. And perhaps
you
haven’t thought of it, but when you re-read Tradition Two, you will see
that the
group conscience represents a final and ultimate authority and that the
trusted
servant is the delegated authority from the groups in which the servant is
trusted to do the kinds of things for the groups they can’t do for
themselves.
So, how that got that way, respecting world services: ultimate authority,
delegated authority is here spelled out.

Then there comes in the next essay this all questioned importance of
leadership,
this all important question of what anyway is a trusted servant. Is this
gent or
gal a messenger, a housemaid -- or is he to be really trusted? And if so,
how is
he going to know how much he can be trusted? And what is going to be your
understanding of it when you hand him the job? Now, these problems are
legion.
The extent to which this trust is to be spelled out and applied to each
particular condition has to have some means of interpretation, doesn’t it?
So I
have suggested here that, throughout our services, we create what might be
called the principle of decision -— and the root of this principle is
trust. The
principle of decision, which says that any executive, committee, board, the
Conference itself, within the state or customary scope of their several
duties,
should be able to say what questions they will dispose of themselves —-
and
which they will pass on to the next higher authority for guidance,
direction,
consultation and whatnot.

This spells out and defines, and makes an automatic means of defining
throughout
our structure at all times, what the trust is that any servant could expect.
You
say this is dangerous? I don’t think so. It simply means that you are not,
out
of your ultimate authority as groups, to be constantly giving a guy
directions
who you’ve already trusted to think for himself. Now, if he thinks badly,
you
can sack him. But trust him first. That is the big thing.

Now, then, there is another traditional principle, the source of another
essay
here called the principle of participation. Our whole lives have been
wrecked,
often from childhood, because we have not been participants. There had been
too
much of the parental thing, too much of the wrong kind of the parental
thing, we
always wanted to belong, we always wanted to participate; and there is going
to
be a constant tendency, which we must always forefend against, and that is
to
place in our service structure any group, A.A. as a whole, the Conference,
the
Board of Trustees, committees, executives -- to place any of these people in
absolutely unqualified authority, one over the other. This is an
institutional,
a military, set-up —- and God knows we drunks have rejected institutions
and
this kind of authority, for our purpose, haven’t we?

So, therefore, how, as a practical matter, are we going to express this
participation. Right here in this conference it’s burned in; in Article
XII
you’ll see this statement in the Conference Charter: nobody is to be set
in
utter authority over anybody else. How do we prevent this?

The Trustees here, and the headquarters people here, are in a great minority
over you people. You have the ultimate authority over us. And you say, well
these folks are nicely incorporated, and we ain’t; and they have the dough
legally, so have we got it? Sure, you got it. You can go home and shut the
dough
off, can’t you? You’ve got the ultimate authority but -- we’ve got
some
delegated authority. Now when you get in this Conference, you find that the
Trustees, and the Directors and the staffs have votes.

And many of you say, why is it; we represent the groups; why the hell
shouldn’t
we tell these people? Why should they utter one yip while we’re doing it?
Oh,
we’ll let ‘em yip, but not vote. Well, you see, right there we get from
the
institutional idea to the corporate idea. And in the corporate business
world,
there is participation in these levels. Can you imagine -how much stock
would
you buy in General Motors if you knew the president and half the board of
directors couldn’t get into a meeting because they were on the payroll? Or
could
just come in and listen to the out-of-town directors? You’d want these
people’s
opinions registered. And they can’t really belong unless they vote. This
we have
found out by the hardest kind of experience. So therefore, the essay here on
participation deals with the principle that any A.A. servant in any top
echelon
of service, regardless of whether they’re paid, unpaid, volunteer or what,
shall
be entitled to reasonable voting privileges in accordance with their
responsibility.

And you good politicos are going to say, but these people here hold a
balance of
power. Well, we qualified that in one way. We’ll take the balance of power
away
from them when it comes to qualifications for their own jobs or voting in
approval of their own actions. But the bulk of the work of this Conference
has
to do with plans and policy for the future. So supposing that among you
Delegates there is a split. And supposing these people come in and vote,
which,
by the way, they seldom do as a bloc, and they swing it one way or the other
on
matters of future policy and planning; well, after all, why shouldn’t
they? Are
they any less competent than the rest of us? Of course not. Besides these
technical considerations, there is this deep need in us to belong, to
participate. And you can only participate on the basis of equality -- and
one
token of this is voting equality. At first blush, you won’t like the idea.
But
you’ll have a chance to think about it.

One more idea: There came to this country some hundred years ago a French
Baron
whose family and himself had been wracked by the French revolution. De
Toqueville. And he was a worshipful admirer of democracy. And in those days
democracy seemed to be mostly expressed in people’s minds by votes of
simple
majorities. And he was a worshipful admirer of the spirit of democracy as
expressed by the power of a majority to govern. But, said de Toqueville, a
majority can be ignorant, it can be brutal, it can be tyrannous -- and we
have
seen it. Therefore, unless you most carefully protect a minority, large or
small, make sure that minority opinions are voiced, make sure that
minorities
have unusual rights, you’re democracy is never going to work and its
spirit will
die. This was de Toqueville’s prediction and, considering today’s times,
is it
strange that he is not widely read now?

That is why in this Conference we try to get a unanimous consent while we
can;
this is why we say the Conference can mandate the Board of Trustees on a
two-thirds vote. But we have said more here. We have said that any Delegate,
any
Trustee, any staff member, any service director, -- any board, committee or
whatever --- that wherever there is a minority, it shall always be the right
of
this minority to file a minority report so that their views are held up
clearly.
And if in the opinion of any such minority, even a minority of one, if the
majority is about to hastily or angrily do something which could be to the
detriment of Alcoholics Anonymous, the serious detriment, it is not only
their
right to file a minority appeal, it is their duty.

So, like de Toqueville, neither you nor I want either the tyranny or the
majority, nor the tyranny of the small minority. And steps have been taken
here
to balance up these relations.

Now, some of the other things cover topics like this, I touched on this: The
Conference acknowledges the primary administrative responsibility of the
Trustees. We have talked about electing trustees and yet primarily they are
a
body of administrators. In a sense, it’s an executive body, isn’t it?
Look at
any form of government. (Understand we’re not a form of government, but
you have
to pay attention to these forms). The President of the United States is the
only
elected executive; all the rest are appointive, aren’t they, subject to
confirmation by, which is the system we got here -- and this goes into that.

And then there is this question taken up in another essay. How can these
legal
rights of the Trustees, which haven’t been changed one jot or title by the
appearance of this Conference, if they’ve got the legal right to hang on
to your
money and do as they dammed please, what’s going to stop them? Well, the
answer
is: Nobody has a vested interest. They have to be volunteers always. They
are
amenable to the spirit of this Conference and its power and its prestige ---
and
if they are not, there is a provision here by which they can be reorganized;
there is a provision in here by which they can be censored - and you can
always
go home and shut off the money spigot.

So, the traditional power of this Conference and the groups is actually
superior
to the legal power of the Trustees. That is the balance. But the trustees as
a
minority some day, should this Conference get very angry and unreasonable,
say:
Boys, we’re going to veto you for the time being, we ain’t gonna do this
---
even as the President of the United States has the veto, so will these
fellows.
You go home and think this over. We won’t go along. And if you give them a
vote
of no confidence, they can appeal to the groups. These are the balances,
see;
this is interpretive, this has all been implicit in our structure but
we’re
trying to spell it out.

Well, there are others —- There’s a whole section on leadership, service
leadership from top to bottom, what it’s composed of. In A.A. we wash
between
great extremes. On the one side, we’ve got the infallible leader who never
makes
any mistakes --- and let us do just as he says. On the other side we have a
concept of leadership which goes and says: What shall I do? What shall I do?
Tell me, what time do —- I’m just a humble servant, not a trusted one,
just a
humble one. The hell with either. Leadership in practice works in between --
and
we spell that out. And so on.

This will give you an idea of what’s cooking in the Twelve Concepts for
World
Service. The last one which I haven’t done deals with the Conference --
Article
XII of the Conference charter. And you who recall it know that this is
several
things. First of all, it’s the substance of the contract the groups made
with
the Board of Trustees at the time of St. Louis. And this contract decrees
that
this body shall never be a government.

It decrees that we shall be prudent financially. It decrees that we shall be
keepers of the A.A. Tradition —- and so on -- so that it is in part a
spiritual
document and in part a contract. And, God willing, because it is both
spiritual
and contract, let it be for all time of our existence a sanctified contract.

My own days of active service, like the sands in our last hourglass, are
running
out. And this is good. We know that all families have to have parents and we
know that the great unwisdom of all parenthood is to try to remain the
parents
of infants in adolescence and keep people in this state forever. We know
that
when the parents have done their bit, and said their pieces, and have nursed
the
family along, that there comes the point that the parents must say: Now, you
go
out and try your wings. You haven’t grown up and we haven’t grown up,
but you
have come to the age of responsibility where, with the tools we are leaving
you,
you must try to grow up, to grow in God’s image and likeness.

So my feeling is not that I’m withdrawing because I’m tired. My feeling
is that
I would like to be another kind of parent, a fellow on the sidelines. If
there
is some breach in these walls which we have erected, some unseen flaw or
defect,
of course all of us oldsters are going to pitch in for the repairs. But this
business of functioning in the here and now, that is for the new generation.

May God bless Alcoholics Anonymous forever. And I offer a prayer that the
destiny of this society will ever be safe in the hearts of its membership
and in
the conscience of its trusted servants. You are the heirs. As I said at the
opening the future belongs to you.

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++++Message 4928. . . . . . . . . . . . Little Red Book - current Hazelden
edit.
From: Charlie C . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/17/2008 4:58:00 PM

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Am curious to read the current Hazelden edition
of The Little Red Book after reading the recent
posts on it.

My question: is the "nonsexist" language edition
from Hazelden more or less the original text,
or is it significantly altered?

Charlie C.
IM, Yahoo = route20guy

"For what do we live, but to make sport for
our neighbors, and laugh at them in our turn?"
Pride & Prejudice

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++++Message 4929. . . . . . . . . . . . quote from "Alcohol and Public
Opinion" (1942)
From: Ron Roizen . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/18/2008 9:22:00 AM

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Good Morning!

I just now joined this group in order to ask
the following question:

In 1942, a man named Dwight Anderson published
what I believe to be one of the most important
articles in the history of the modern
alcoholism movement. It was titled "Alcohol
and Public Opinion," and published in the
Quarterly Journal of Studies on Alcohol
(3:376-392, 1942). Near the end of this
article, Anderson discussed the prevailing
apathy and sense of impotence with regard to
alcoholism current among contemporary
physicians in the U.S. At one point, he
tells an anecdote about the misinterpretation
of slips among physicians (pp. 386-387):

"Too frequently the therapist merely regards
this [i.e., a slip] as evidence of the
impossibility of cure, and gives up. A
psychiatrist in a municipal hospital so
regarded a lapse in an instance known to the
author. A member of Alcoholics Anonymous who
had been helped to remain sober for more than
a year, landed back in the psychiatric ward
where she was quite well known from many
previous visits. The psychiatric intern who
visited her said: 'Well, I see you're back in
here again despite "Alcoholics Anonymous."'
Do we chide a tuberculosis patient who
relapses?"

Might anyone on this list recall anything in
connection with Anderson's anecdote, I wonder?
I'm particularly interested in the name of
the AA member Anderson was referring to.

Thanks in advance for any help!

Ron Roizen
Wallace, Idaho

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++++Message 4930. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr. Percy Poliak
From: bruceken@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/20/2008 9:03:00 AM

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Dr. Percy Poliak had indeed been on the staff
of Bellevue Hospital in New York, as Resident
Physician in Charge of the Psychiatric
Division. At that time he had a brief
contact with Bill W. and had come to possess
a Big Book.

While at Bellvue Dr. Poliak also met a San
Francisco drunk, Ted C, who was in the New
York hospital recovering. That was in 1939.
(Ted C. was among the first four members of
AA in San Francisco.)

By March of 1940, however, according to a
history of the California Northern Coastal
Area written by Dean K. (d. 1984), Dr. Poliak
was on the Staff of the San Francisco General
Hospital.

It was at that time that another local AA
member, Don B., had started to drink again,
and was admitted there. Ted C., now a sober AA
member, went to visit Don in the SF hospital
and ran into Dr. Poliak again.

This led to Dr. Poliak becoming very active
with AA membership in San Francisco. attending
AA meetings and referring numerous patients
to the Fellowship. He is honored by AA in San
Francisco as one of its strongest friends.

Bruce Kennedy
Chair, San Francisco Archives Committee

- - - -

Message 4922 from <lance_1954@yahoo.com>
(lance_1954 at yahoo.com)

Hi group!

Does anyone have any info on Dr. Percy Poliak?

He gave the "2nd Doctor's Opinion" in the Big
Book in Chapt. 3, "More About Alcoholism,"
page 43. (It is only one paragraph long!)

Thanks, and God's blessings!

Lance, from colorful Colorado!

- - - -

From the moderator: for additional background,
see

http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/BBWhoWhat.htm

http://www.justloveaudio.com/resources/Assorted/Big_Book_Name_and_Date_Refer
ence\

[12]\s.pdf

page 43: staff member world renowned hospital
was Dr. Percy Poliak at Bellevue Hospital,
New York

page 43: "two of you men, whose stories I
have heard," unknown.

Dr. Percy Poliak -- San Francisco psychiatrist
was with Bellevue Hospital New York then
San Francisco Country Hospital, impressed
with A.A., gave A.A. group full support
(Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age page 88)

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++++Message 4931. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Little Red Book
From: Filiatreau, Amy . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/17/2008 11:00:00 AM

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Glenn wrote: Again, someone with access to
the New York AA Archives needs to check the
original letters to make sure that we have
accurate copies to work from.

- - - -

Hello! As you both know, I usually don’t
stick my foot in at AAHistoryLovers but prefer
just to view the wonderful things others
are researching and writing on this list,
only responding or butting in when specifi-
cally requested to do so. That said, since I
certainly have access to AA’s GSO Archives :-),
I thought I would respond to this and hopefully
can help.

- - - -

We have an original copy of Bobbie Burger’s
November 11, 1944 letter to Barry Collins, and
her words are slightly different than what is
quoted below, and some sentences were removed,
but it’s basically the same. She writes (this
is typed verbatim from her letter):

- - - -

"Dear Barry:
. . . The Washington pamphlet like the new
Cleveland one and the host of others are all
local projects. I doubt that they make
anything on the sale of them for it is only
on a very large distribution that anything
can be made. I know, although we ship thousands
of our own pamphlets, that we actually lose a
little selling at the price we do. Of course,
we do not try to make a profit – the pamphlet
distribution is just another service of this
office. We do not actually approve or
disapprove of these local pieces; by that
I mean that the Foundation feels each Group
is entitled to write up its own 'can opener'
nd [sic] let it stand on its own merits. All
of them have good points and very few have
caused any controversy. But as in all things
of a local nature, we keep hands off, either
pro or con. Personally I’m glad to see the
‘Spnsor’ [sic] pamphlet out of Cleveland. I
know the system there ‘works’ and could be
of benefit to other groups. Frankly I haen’t
[sic] had time to mor [sic] than glance at
the Washington booklet but I’ve heard some
favorable comments about it. I think there
must be at least 25 local pamphlets now being
used and I've yet to see one that hasn't had
some good points. I think it is up to each
individual Group whether it wants to use and
buy these pamphlets from the Group that puts
them out. . . .

Sincerely, Bobbie (Margaret R. Burger)"

- - - -

We have many letters to and from Bill about
this book, but I can’t find the one transcribed
below (also on hindsfoot.org) from November
1950. We have a number of letters from Bill
to Ed Webster and to Barry Collins. They
clearly were communicating with Bill in late
1950; they sent Bill some copies of the new
revision and many letters were exchanged. But
I can’t find Bill’s 1950 letter to Barry with
this quote in it.

However, this is just the sort of thing that
Bill did say in many other letters. I don’t
see any reason at all to think the letter is
not legitimate; we just don’t seem to have it
in our collection. I believe it’s probably
genuine, but without having a copy of it here,
I can’t say for sure.

The Alcoholic Foundation and Bill W. were
always very welcoming of books like this if
they were helpful to AA members, and always
took a very hands-off approach, as we do today.
We have a letter from Bill W. dated November
14, 1946, in which he writes to Ed:

- - - -

“I haven’t had a chance to get at the little
book. Everybody who has read it seems to like
it very much – which of course was to be
expected! Personally I am very glad to see
many people writing about A.A. and circulating
the material about even though some folks
seem to think I should do all the writing.
To me this idea is nonsense. A.A. is not one
point of view, it is many.”

- - - -

On May 31, 1949, Bill writes Ed again to thank
him for sending him some books. He writes,

- - - -

“God forbid that Alcoholics Anonymous ever
become frozen or rigid in its ways of doing
or thinking. Within the framework of our
principles the ways are apparently legion.
There is little doubt that the contribution
you folks have made to our progress will always
be a part of the folk lore of our well-loved
fellowship.”

- - - -

Hope this is helpful. Take care!

Amy

Amy Filiatreau, CA
Archives Director
AA World Services, Inc.

212-870-2568

<filiatreaua@aa.org>
(filiatreaua at aa.org)

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++++Message 4932. . . . . . . . . . . . Spiritual experience changed to
awakening
From: celticgreen4 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/24/2008 11:53:00 AM

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Can anyone tell me when the Big Book was
changed to say in the 12th Step in Chapter
Five "Having had a spiritual awakening..."
as versus the earlier phrase "Having had a
spiritual experience..."?

- - - -

FROM OUR PAST MESSAGES:

From: "ArtSheehan" <ArtSheehan@msn.com>
Date: Sat Dec 3, 2005
Subject: RE: Changing "those" to "these"
in 12th step wording

In March 1941, the wording of Step 12 was
changed in the 2nd printing of the 1st
edition Big Book. The term “spiritual
experience” was changed to “spiritual
awakening” and the term “as the result of
these steps” was changed to “as the result
of those steps.”

An appendix titled “Spiritual Experience” was
also added to the Big Book in the 2nd printing
of the 1st edition. This was done because
many members thought they had to have a sudden
and spectacular spiritual experience similar
to the one Bill had in Towns Hospital. The
appendix emphasized that most spiritual
experiences were of the type that the psycho-
logist William James called the “educational
variety.”

There is a very brief mention of the Step 12
wording change from "experience" to "awakening"
in "AA Comes of Age" in the chapter "Religion
Looks at Alcoholics Anonymous" by Father Ed
Dowling (pg 256). Outside of it, I have been
unable to find any further references to the
changes in AA literature.

In 1956, the wording of Step 12 changed again
in the 2nd printing of the 2nd edition Big
Book. The term “as the result of those steps”
was restored to its original form of “as the
result of these steps.”

The 1976 General Service Conference approved
publication of the 3rd edition Big Book.

The 1976 Conference also expanded a 1955
provision of the Conference Charter to specify
that any change to the Steps, Traditions or
Concepts and 6 Warranties of Article 12 of
the General Service Conference Charter, would
require written approval of 75% of the AA
Groups worldwide. The Conference Advisory
Action makes any change whatsoever to the
Steps, Traditions, Concepts and Warranties a
virtual impossibility (even so much as adding
or removing a comma).

Cheers
Arthur

- - - -

Message 3677 from "ArtSheehan"
<ArtSheehan@msn.com> (ArtSheehan at msn.com)
Sept. 4, 2006

There were a number of significant changes
made to the 2nd printing of the 1st edition
Big Book:

In March 1941, in the 2nd printing, the
wording of Step Twelve changed. The term
"spiritual experience" was changed to
"spiritual awakening" and "as the result of
these steps" was changed to "as the result
of those steps." The story "Lone Endeavor"
(of Pat C from CA, ghost written by Ruth
Hock) was removed. Appendix II "Spiritual
Experience" was added. Many members thought
they had to have a sudden, spectacular
spiritual experience similar to the one
Bill had in Towns Hospital. The appendix
emphasized that most spiritual experiences
developed slowly over time and were of the
"educational variety." William James, by
the way did not explicitly use the term
"educational variety" in his 1902 book
titled "The Varieties of Religious
Experience - A Study In Human Nature."

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++++Message 4933. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: list of all known early AA
pamphlets and can openers
From: shakey1aa . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/24/2008 12:37:00 AM

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I recently obtained printings of the 1st and
2nd reprints of Jack Alexander's SEP (Saturday
Evening Post) article which must have been
the most widely circulasted Can Opener of the
1940's. After the articled appeared in the
magazine the Philadelphia Mother Group ordered
10,000 copies from Judge Curtis Bok, a Phila-
delphia Municipal Court Judge and the owner
of the Curtis publications. One thousand of
these stayed in Philadelphia and nine thousand
went to New York. Our relationship with the
Judge occured with the help from two Non-
Alcoholic members of AA in Philadelphia. They
were referred to as "associate members" and
are listed in the 1st meeting list issued by
the Mother Group. (July 1940) Those two men
were Dr's A Weise Hammer and Dudley Saul.

Has the list of Can Opener's been updated
since the initial post?

Shakey Mike Gwirtz
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
See you in Niagara Falls NY in Sept 2008 ?

- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce C." <brucecl2002@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi All
>
> Here is a list of some of the early AA
> pamphlets I have seen. All early can openers
> had a point.
>
> I have seen two "AA" pamphlets or booklets,
> both from Works Publishing:
>
> 1. - The Houston Press reprints of intro,
> an editorial, and 6 - articles published
> by The Houston Press, with a reprint of
> "A New Approach to Psychotherapy in Chronic
> Alcoholism", by Dr. Silkworth, from "The Journal
> - Lancet, MN. July, 1939, Vol. LIX, No. 7,
> page 312.(no copyright date, circa. 1940)
>
> 2. - AA pamphlet or booklet, 29 pages,
> Alcoholics Anonymous intro, Am I An
> Alcoholic?, The Doctor's Nightmare, The
> European Drinker, Women Suffer Too, Bill's
> Story, Medicine, Religion and Alcoholics
> Anonymous, The Twelve Steps, Our Friends Say,
> Book Review by Dr. Harry Emerson Fosdick.
> copyright 1943.
>
> Other Works Publishing pamphlets or booklets:
>
> Medicine Looks at A.A. - 1946
> A.A. Tradition - 1947
> Sedatives - 1948
> The Society of Alcoholics Anonymous - 1950
>
> Pamphlets Booklets with "color covers", by
> the Alcoholic Foundation:
>
> A.A. for the Woman - 1952
> Sedatives and the Alcoholic - 1952
> The Alcoholic Employee - 1952
> Young People and A.A. - 1953
>
> The items stated earlier reprinted from Akron -
> Cleveland, Ohio, and Detroit, MI., and Chicago,
> IL. central offices.
>
>
> Bruce C.
>

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++++Message 4934. . . . . . . . . . . . Conference Approved Literature
From: James Bliss . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/29/2008 12:13:00 PM

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I know that this is a little late, but I was just going through a stack
of material organizing it and came across an interesting item from the
GSO 'Service Material From GSO'. It is document number F-29 dated
10/93. I do not know if it is still available. But it says the
following regarding 'Conference-Approved literature:

<begin quote>
"The term "Conference-approved" describes written or audiovisual
material approved by the Conference for publication by G.S.O. This
process assures that everything in such literature is in accord with
A.A. principles. Conference-approved material always deals with the
recovery program of Alcoholics Anonymous or with information about the
A.A. Fellowship.

"The term has no relation to material not published by G.S.O. It does
_not_ imply Conference Disapproval of other material about A.A. A great
deal of literature helpful to alcoholics is published by others, and
A.A. does not try to tell any individual member what he or she may or
may not read.

"Conference approval assures us that a piece of literature represents
solid A.A. experience. Any Conference-approved booklet or pamphlet goes
through a lengthy and painstaking process, during which a variety of
A.A.s from all over the United States and Canada read and express
opinions at every stage of production."
<end quote>

It states a little later:
<begin quote>
"All "A.A. Literature" Is Not Conference-approved

"Central offices and intergroups do write and distribute pamphlets or
booklets that are not Conference-approved. If such pieces meet the
needs of the local membership, they may be legitimately classified as
"A.A. literature." There is no conflict between A.A. World Services,
Inc. (A.A.W.S. -- publishers of Conference-approved literature), and
central offices or intergroups - rather they complement each other. The
Conference does not _disapprove_ of such material.

"G.S.O. does develop some literature that does not have to be approved
by the Conference, such as service material, Guidelines and bulletins."
<end quote>

Thought this might be of interest to those who were following the
original thread.

Jim

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++++Message 4935. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Conference Approved Literature
From: Jonathan Rose . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/30/2008 6:53:00 PM

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Hi friends,

The A.A. web-site posts information regarding
Conference-approved and other A.A. literature.
the direct link at the site is:

http://aa.org/en_services_for_members.cfm?PageID=98&SubPage=214

in fellowship,

Buck R.

- - - -

On Mar 29, 2008, at 12:13 PM, James Bliss wrote:

I know that this is a little late, but I was just going through a stack
of material organizing it and came across an interesting item from the
GSO 'Service Material From GSO'. It is document number F-29 dated
10/93. I do not know if it is still available. But it says the
following regarding 'Conference-Approved literature:

<begin quote>
"The term "Conference-approved" describes written or audiovisual
material approved by the Conference for publication by G.S.O. This
process assures that everything in such literature is in accord with
A.A. principles. Conference-approved material always deals with the
recovery program of Alcoholics Anonymous or with information about the
A.A. Fellowship.

"The term has no relation to material not published by G.S.O. It does
_not_ imply Conference Disapproval of other material about A.A. A great
deal of literature helpful to alcoholics is published by others, and
A.A. does not try to tell any individual member what he or she may or
may not read.

"Conference approval assures us that a piece of literature represents
solid A.A. experience. Any Conference-approved booklet or pamphlet goes
through a lengthy and painstaking process, during which a variety of
A.A.s from all over the United States and Canada read and express
opinions at every stage of production."
<end quote>

It states a little later:
<begin quote>
"All "A.A. Literature" Is Not Conference-approved

"Central offices and intergroups do write and distribute pamphlets or
booklets that are not Conference-approved. If such pieces meet the
needs of the local membership, they may be legitimately classified as
"A.A. literature." There is no conflict between A.A. World Services,
Inc. (A.A.W.S. -- publishers of Conference-approved literature), and
central offices or intergroups - rather they complement each other. The
Conference does not _disapprove_ of such material.

"G.S.O. does develop some literature that does not have to be approved
by the Conference, such as service material, Guidelines and bulletins."
<end quote>

Thought this might be of interest to those who were following the
original thread.

Jim

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 4936. . . . . . . . . . . . Middletown play presented at AA
meetings
From: garylock7008 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/27/2008 5:06:00 PM

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Gary up here in Canada eh!

One of our AA members - sober over 40 years
remembers a play that used to move from group
to group, about Middletown?

He remembers it being performed at one of the
Founder's Days a number of years ago - wonder
if anyone can give me more information, a
script?

Best in Recovery - Gary

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++++Message 4937. . . . . . . . . . . . William James and Appendix
From: rdg1649 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/26/2008 7:53:00 PM

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It is true that James used the term experiental
rather than educational as Bill's appendix to
the Big Book states.

However, it has always struck me that there
is a far greater problem with this appendix.
Reading it I get the impression that Bill is
implying that it is o.k. if a member's
spiritual experience is not of the 'bolt of
lightning' type as he describes his.

In fact, having read James, it is my
impression that James is saying the exact
opposite: That the most lasting and deep
are experiential and not revival type
surges of emotion as Bill describes his.

Seems to me that Bill acurately reports
that James noted a 'variety' of religious
experiences but not with the same emphasis/
orientation that Bill implies.

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++++Message 4938. . . . . . . . . . . . The Third Courageous Doctor
From: Danny S . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/27/2008 12:06:00 PM

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Hey guys. Thanks for all of your service here.
I have a pressing question to which I can't
seem to get the answer. Yet.

Most of us AA History lovers are already
familiar with the two doctors in the Big Book
who did the unspeakable: (i) Admitted to a
suffering patient that they didn't know squat
about how to help a real alcoholic and points
out (ii) the existence of a distinction
between the alcoholic and the non-alcoholic.
That would be Silkworth and Jung. We owe our
Fellowship to these men.

But there is one more - a THIRD! In a story
in the back of the Book, "Me an Alcoholic?"
(4th edit. p. 382) the author talks about
his analyst who concluded that the "line
between the heavy drinker and the alcoholic
is not always clear" (385:5) and tells him,
"there is nothing I can do" (386:1) and
"nothing medicine can do".(386:1) The
author points out the analyst's "courage to
admit failure" (386:2)

Is there a name we can ascribe to this third,
courageous and honest physician?

Peace, Danny Schwarzhoff

- - - -

From the moderator:

"Me an Alcoholic?" is found in the 2nd edition
on page 419, 3rd edition on page 432, and 4th
edition on page 382. Author Unknown.

See Nancy Olson's biographies of the authors at
http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/Authors.htm
which notes that "This author's date of sobriety
is believed to be November 1947."

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

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++++Message 4939. . . . . . . . . . . . History & Archives Lebanon PA June
21 2008
From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/31/2008 10:15:00 AM

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Multi-District History & Archives Gathering
Lebanon, Pennsylvania, June 21 2008

This year's Gathering is scheduled to begin
at 8 a.m. (registration) on Saturday June 21
2008 at the Social Hall at 750 State Drive in
Lebanon PA (location also in 2006 and 2007).

Suggested topics for panels are:

**The Messengers to Ebby (Rowland H,
Shep C, Cebra G)

**AA and Baseball

**AA and Films/Theatre

**Early Days in the Mid-Atlantic Region

**AA Pioneers

**And a Panel on Coming into AA in the
Eastern Pennsylvania Area in October 1970
(three old friends who have known each
other in sobriety for more than 35 years).

The Gathering is FREE and morning refreshments
and lunch will be provided.

End time about 4:30-5:00 p.m.

Contact the Chairman at histandarch@comcast.net
(histandarch at comcast.net)

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++++Message 4940. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Middletown play presented at AA
meetings
From: Bob Schultz . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/31/2008 7:09:00 PM

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http://www.aaprimarypurpose.org/literature/Twelve%20Traditions%20Play.pdf

From: "Bob Schultz" <bsdds@comcast.net>
(bsdds at comcast.net)

Also from: "mchugh1652"
<mchugh1652@ameritech.net>
(mchugh1652 at ameritech.net)

- - - -

From: S Sommers <scmws@yahoo.com>
(scmws at yahoo.com)

The local districts and occasionally a group
have put on skits at conferences. The Twelve
Traditions play is a fine skit which teaches
the players and others much about the
traditions and service structure. I ran
across The Twelve Concepts play somewhere,
but I can't find it right now.

There is a good website:

recoveryskits.com

which might be a place to look.

Thanks.

Sam'l Sommers
Elkhart Indiana

- - - -

From: "gayle" <downtowndoggie@yahoo.com>
(downtowndoggie at yahoo.com)

Hello to all! this is my first post. I
requested the script for this play from GSO
back in the 90's & actually performed in it
twice. I am looking at the script right now.
It's called "Twelve Traditions Play" the
cast is made up of: Narrator, Founder
(oldtimer), Moneybags, Eager Beaver,
Politician, Delegate and Newcomer! It takes
place in Middletown Group. It also says
"There is no set script or cast for this play.
Like everything in A.A., it is very "loosely"
organized. Ideally there should be seven
players; this version is set up for six
players and a narrator or themesetter who
opens and closes the play."

----- Original Message -----
From: garylock7008
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 4:06 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Middletown play presented at AA meetings

Gary up here in Canada eh!

One of our AA members - sober over 40 years
remembers a play that used to move from group
to group, about Middletown?

He remembers it being performed at one of the
Founder's Days a number of years ago - wonder
if anyone can give me more information, a
script?

Best in Recovery - Gary

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++++Message 4941. . . . . . . . . . . . Significant April Dates in A.A.
History
From: chesbayman56 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/1/2008 1:34:00 AM

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April 1935 - Dr. Silkworth told Bill to quit preaching at drunks &
tell them of obsession & allergy.
April 1950 - Saturday Evening Post article "The Drunkard's Best
Friend" by Jack Alexander.
April 1958 - The word "honest" dropped from AA Preamble, "an honest
desire to stop drinking".
April 1966 - Change in ratio of trustees of the General Service
Board; now two thirds (majority) are alcoholic.
April 1970 - GSO moved to 468 Park Ave. South, NYC.
April 1, 1939 - Publication date of Alcoholics Anonymous, AA's Big
Book.
April 1, 1940 - Larry J. of Houston, wrote "The Texas Prayer", used
to open AA meetings in Texas.
April 1, 1966 - Sister Ignatia died.
April 2, 1966 - Harry Tiebout, M.D. died.
April 3, 1941 - First AA meeting held in Florida.
April 3, 1960 - Fr. Ed Dowling, S.J., died. He was Bill
W's "spiritual sponsor."
April 7, 1941 - Ruth Hock reported there were 1,500 letters asking
for help as a result of the Saturday Evening Post Article by Jack
Alexander.
April 10, 1939 - The first ten copies of the Big Book arrived at the
office Bill and Hank P shared.
April 11, 1938 - The Alcoholic Foundation formed as a trusteeship for
A.A. (sometimes reported as May 1938)
April 11, 1941 - Bill and Lois finally found a home, Stepping Stones
in New Bedford.
April 16, 1940 - A sober Rollie H. catches the only opening day no-
hitter in baseball history since 1909.
April 16, 1973 - Dr. Jack Norris presented President Nixon with the
one millionth copy of the Big Book.
April 19, 1940 - The first AA group in Little Rock, Arkansas, was
formed. First 'mail order' group.
April 19, 1941 - The first AA group in the State of Washington was
formed in Seattle.
April 22, 1940 - Bill and Hank transfer their Works Publishing stock
to the Alcoholic Foundation.
April 23, 1940 - Dr. Bob wrote the Trustees to refuse Big Book
royalties, but Bill W insisted that Dr. Bob and Anne receive them.
April 24, 1940 - The first AA pamphlet, "AA", was published.
April 24, 1989 - Dr. Leonard Strong died.
April 25, 1939 - Morgan R interviewed on Gabriel Heatter radio show.
April 25, 1951 - AA's first General Service Conference was held.
April 26 or May 1, 1939 - Bank forecloses on 182 Clinton Street.
April 30, 1989 - Film "My Name is Bill W." a Hallmark presentation
was broadcast on ABC TV.

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++++Message 4942. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Conference Approved Literature
From: Arthur Sheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/31/2008 5:50:00 PM

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Hi All

I'd like to make an appeal to give consideration
to performing a search of the large and rich
archival postings of AA History Lovers. Topics
such as "Conference-approved literature" have
surfaced a number of times in the forum and it
is well worth a trip through the past postings.
It will also yield much more information on
individual viewpoints of various members of
the forum. It's a rich information source -
please take advantage of it.

The information published by GSO on what
"Conference-approved" means, is also included
in hard copy form in the Group Handbook offered
by AAWS/GSO. GSO publishes a number of
informative and valuable "service pieces"
that do not require Conference approval. The
information cited about what "Conference-
approved" means is one these "service pieces."

The Conference-approval process can be very
rigorous at times. Trustees Committees and
the GSO Publications Department are vital
parts of the whole process. More often than
not only a small percentage of Conference
Delegates will have the opportunity to
completely review a piece of literature prior
to voting on it on the Conference floor for
Conference approval/disapproval.

It would be a physical impossibility for all
Conference Delegates to review every piece of
literature under consideration. The backbone
of the Conference is made up of "Conference
Committees" (explained in the AA Service
Manual). Each Conference Committee that has
a literature item on its agenda performs the
detailed review and discussion and makes a
"recommendations" to the Conference as a whole
for approval. If the recommendation receives
at least a 2/3 majority in the affirmative
then it is approved.

The Conference approval process can also be
intimidating and onerous. One of the members
of this forum, Mel B, wrote the lion's share
of Bill W's biography "Pass It On" (the
original title proposed was "Bill W and His
Friends" - my Areas Archives has 2 manuscript
copies). I don't want to try to speak for Mel
but I can only imagine how tough it was to
satisfy a formidable array of Trustees and
Delegates on a biography of Bill W. Also,
the attempt to write an AA history from 1955
had to be abandoned. I suspect Conference
approval for any type of historical work would
be one heck of a major challenge (and probably
rightfully so).

Cheers
Arthur

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jonathan Rose
Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2008 5:53 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Conference Approved Literature

Hi friends,

The A.A. web-site posts information regarding
Conference-approved and other A.A. literature.
the direct link at the site is:

http://aa.org/en_services_for_members.cfm?PageID=98&SubPage=214

in fellowship,

Buck R.

- - - -

On Mar 29, 2008, at 12:13 PM, James Bliss wrote:

I know that this is a little late, but I was just going through a stack
of material organizing it and came across an interesting item from the
GSO 'Service Material From GSO'. It is document number F-29 dated
10/93. I do not know if it is still available. But it says the
following regarding 'Conference-Approved literature:

<begin quote>
"The term "Conference-approved" describes written or audiovisual
material approved by the Conference for publication by G.S.O. This
process assures that everything in such literature is in accord with
A.A. principles. Conference-approved material always deals with the
recovery program of Alcoholics Anonymous or with information about the
A.A. Fellowship.

"The term has no relation to material not published by G.S.O. It does
_not_ imply Conference Disapproval of other material about A.A. A great
deal of literature helpful to alcoholics is published by others, and
A.A. does not try to tell any individual member what he or she may or
may not read.

"Conference approval assures us that a piece of literature represents
solid A.A. experience. Any Conference-approved booklet or pamphlet goes
through a lengthy and painstaking process, during which a variety of
A.A.s from all over the United States and Canada read and express
opinions at every stage of production."
<end quote>

It states a little later:
<begin quote>
"All "A.A. Literature" Is Not Conference-approved

"Central offices and intergroups do write and distribute pamphlets or
booklets that are not Conference-approved. If such pieces meet the
needs of the local membership, they may be legitimately classified as
"A.A. literature." There is no conflict between A.A. World Services,
Inc. (A.A.W.S. -- publishers of Conference-approved literature), and
central offices or intergroups - rather they complement each other. The
Conference does not _disapprove_ of such material.

"G.S.O. does develop some literature that does not have to be approved
by the Conference, such as service material, Guidelines and bulletins."
<end quote>

Thought this might be of interest to those who were following the
original thread.

Jim

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

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++++Message 4943. . . . . . . . . . . . Question about the circle, triangle
and other
From: ginnymatthew . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/1/2008 6:43:00 PM

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I just received a fourth edition 2001 Big Book
printed in Great Britain. The dust jacket and
the title page have the AA circle and triangle
logo that I thought was 'banned' from being
used back in 1996. How is it that they are
able to use this logo?

Also on the front page is a disclaimer which
states "No part of this publication may be
reproduced, stored in a retrievable system,
or transmitted in any form or by any means
without the prior permission of the publisher."

U.S. texts don't seem to have this disclaimer.
What is that about?

Gratefully,
Ginny

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++++Message 4944. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Conference Approved Literature
From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/4/2008 4:48:00 PM

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Hi Arthur,

I appreciate your memo on Conference-approved
literature. You have pointed out how rigorous
the approval process is and how difficult
it is to get final approval. I was probably
the right guy to work on Bill's bio because
my background was in writing for a corporation,
where you have to please everybody from the
assistant janitor to the CEO. But I was
replaced after two years!

Working on Bill's bio was, however, a wonder-
ful experience that gave me the opportunity
to interview people I never would have met
and it also enabled me to write three of my
Hazelden books.

What I'd really like to see, as an independent
author, is some effort to show that "outside"
literature can be just as useful as the
conference-approved materials (and might also
be necessary in seeking happy sobriety).

Some members apparently believe that a good
AA should read only conference-approved
literature, which is not the purpose of the
process. This viewpoint has become so fixed
in Toledo that people apologize if they quote
from a piece that is not conference-approved.
"Twenty-Four Hours a Day" used to be sold at
most groups here, but it was finally eliminated
by the self-appointed AA police (is my resent-
ment showing?).

You referred to the ill-starred attempt to
produce an AA history covering the period from
1955 on. I understand that this failed because
delegates were unhappy with the histories of
their own areas, for various reasons. The
project was finally shelved after spending a
small fortune producing a version.

It did get out somehow, and I have a copy for
occasional reference, but there is no approved
copy anywhere. I've concluded that AA will
never have an authorized history covering
this period; the job will be left to outside
writers by default.

Mel Barger

melb@accesstoledo.com
(melb at accesstoledo.com)

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++++Message 4945. . . . . . . . . . . . The Stools and Bottle Talk
From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/5/2008 3:12:00 PM

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I'd like to know if anyone has a script or a
tape of the stools and bottle talk? I'd like
to get a copy of it? and does anyone make or
know how to purchase the props for the talk?

shakey mike gwirtz

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++++Message 4946. . . . . . . . . . . . Doctor''s opinion
From: johnhartie . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/6/2008 9:25:00 AM

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My name is John Hartie, I'm doing the commit-
ment for the history lovers at Barking big
book study.

The question is, in the Doctor's Opinion page
xxx, was the classification of the alcoholic
put in order for any reason?

We are looking for facts and not anyone's
opinion, sorry if that sounds harsh.

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++++Message 4947. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Question about the circle,
triangle and other
From: DudleyDobinson@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/4/2008 5:39:00 PM

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From Dudley Dobinson and Phillip Baker

**************

From: DudleyDobinson <DudleyDobinson@aol.com>
(DudleyDobinson at aol.com)

Hi Ginny,

As I understand, it in the UK (and in Ireland
where I live and am in service) the copyright
of the Big Book and AA Circle/Triangle was not
lost and is still in force. You can verify this
by visiting either country's web site. Here
in Ireland we use the logo on all official AA
correspondence. However we do buy our literature
from New York whereas the UK prints some of
its own. I could go on, hopefully this will
answer your question.

In Service - Dudley

- - - -

From: Phillip Baker <phillipb@the12steps.net>
(phillipb at the12steps.net)

Different copyright laws in different countries.
The copyright for the 1st and 2nd edition were
allowed to lapse in the US only.

This does nto apply to other countries.

Also in the US the 3rd and 4th edition is under
copyright. But I guess since the first 164
pages are now public domain, that copyright
only applies to the new forwards, the personal
stories and the additional appendixes.

But basically there are different copyright
laws in different countries.

I assume the circle and triangle fell under
that as well. I would assume that the AA
office in the UK chose to keep using the
circle and triangle. They would be autonomous
from from the AA central office here in the
states around certain issues.

Blessed Be

Phillip
http://www.the12steps.net

- - - -

Original message from <ginnymatthew@yahoo.com>
(ginnymatthew at yahoo.com)

I just received a fourth edition 2001 Big Book
printed in Great Britain. The dust jacket and
the title page have the AA circle and triangle
logo that I thought was 'banned' from being
used back in 1996. How is it that they are
able to use this logo?

Also on the front page is a disclaimer which
states "No part of this publication may be
reproduced, stored in a retrievable system,
or transmitted in any form or by any means
without the prior permission of the publisher."

U.S. texts don't seem to have this disclaimer.
What is that about?

Gratefully,
Ginny

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++++Message 4948. . . . . . . . . . . . Courageous doctors: Dr. Talbot and
Dr. Zweig
From: Bob Schultz . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/1/2008 7:20:00 AM

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I think there were/are many courageous
physicians out there such as my sponsor.
He sobered up in 1970 in Denver while an
ophthalmologist and then came to be a dean
of a medical school in Texas. While he was
in charge the school adopted the study of
Alcoholism and presented as a curriculum.
There were four career teachers in that field
named from that med school. He got himself
associated with IDAA and then was able to
put together CME courses for health professi-
onals that included a gamut of subjects, but
the underlying theme was a study of addiction.

There were all night alkathons and a meeting
planned or put together quickly. Dr. Talbot
attended some of them as did many other well-
known treatment people and caregivers for
alcoholism care. He ran his tenure for nearly
eight years.

Whenever he got up to speak to this group, he
would always start out with; "let's cut to the
chase! My name is George and i am an alcoholic."
Sadly, the CME meetings stopped when he stepped
down.

George T virtually died in my arms in the late
90's in an extended care facility. In my eyes
he was a hero and one of the most courageous
men I ever knew. I can never show him enough
respect. There are countless numbers that
benefited from his stand and most will never
know they did. Just my 2 cents.

In sobriety

Bob S

- - - -

From the moderator: see also the story of
Dr. Zweig in Fort Wayne, Indiana.

http://hindsfoot.org/Nhome.html
http://hindsfoot.org/nftwayn1.html

"Dr. Zweig: The Good Physician"

[John S. in Fort Wayne (who writes the
anonymous John Barleycorn column about A.A.
in the Waynedale News) has given us the story
of Dr. Zweig, a physician who was not an
alcoholic himself, but who reached out to
help struggling alcoholics long before the
medical profession as a whole began to
recognize A.A. and the modern understanding of
alcoholism as a disease. Dr. Zweig's memory
is lovingly preserved in Fort Wayne A.A. as
one of their great heroes.]

The story Dr. Zweig told me before his 1994
death, was that after he was discharged from
the Army in 1945 he returned to Fort Wayne.
Doc was not an alcoholic himself, but he was
a deeply caring and compassionate man -- the
living example of the Good Physician -- who
became deeply involved in helping A.A. after
he saw what the program could accomplish.

Soon after returning to the Fort, he (Dr. Zweig)
ran into a former patient whom he had diagnosed
as a chronic alcoholic. Doc said it was a
consternation to him because the man was sober
now, and he was of the opinion, as was the
American Medical Association, that chronic
alcoholism was not treatable. Doc's conundrum:
"Did he incorrectly diagnose this man or was
there a cure?" Doc asked the man how long he'd
been sober and he said about two years.

Doc asked his patient how he'd gotten sober
and the man said, "I've been going to an AA
meeting in Huntington." That is a town of
around 16,000 population twenty miles or so
southwest of Fort Wayne. Doc was inducted into
the Army after the Japanese attacked Pearl
Harbor in December 1941 and was in the Army
from 1942 until 1945. If Doc's alcoholic
patient had his facts right that would've
put him at an A.A. meeting in Huntington
sometime in 1943.

Doc asked if he could go to the next meeting
with him, the man said yes, and when Doc
attended the A.A. meeting in Huntington he
found two other former patients for whom he
had also written "chronic alcoholic" on their
medical charts. They too were now sober.

Doc said he returned to the Fort and immedi-
ately talked with a judge and asked him to
take the next chronic alcoholic whom he was
going to sentence to Richmond State Hospital,
and assign custody of that person to him
instead. At that point, the judge was about
to sentence a woman named Street Car Sally
to Richmond, so he instead assigned her to
Doc's custody. Doc said the woman was covered
with every parasite known to man and that she
was turning tricks for six packs while living
in an abandoned street car.

Doc took Street Car Sally to Huntington and
those alcoholics' wives fed, bathed, and
clothed her, worked the steps with her, and
had her attend their meetings while Doc drove
to Huntington each day and gave her a vitamin
B12 shot. Three months later Doc took Sally
back before the same judge and when the judge
called her name he looked around the courtroom
and said to the bailiff, "She's not here." Doc
said to the judge, "Your honor, she's standing
right here!"

Sally was such a changed person, the judge
couldn't even recognize her anymore. In spite
of the fact that he had asked to be allowed to
do this experiment, Doc was equally amazed at
the difference that three months of A.A. had
made in her. He said, "John, I believed I had
witnessed a miracle of biblical proportions!"

Perhaps partly to protect his own medical
reputation at first, Doc worked with A.A. on
a totally anonymous basis from 1945 until 1955,
when the American Medical Association finally
recognized alcoholism as an illness. He decided
at that point that he did not want any kind of
personal credit anyway for the work he was
doing, and so he was careful to retain his
anonymity even after that. He had come to
understand how the A.A. way of life worked,
and had come to realize that the best kind of
service to others is the kind in which we seek
no thanks or rewards for ourselves at all.

Doc and some other local doctors attempted to
introduce A.A. into Russia via some other
medical doctors whom they met in Berlin, but
had no success at that time. It was going to
take a while to penetrate behind the Iron
Curtain, where the authorities were suspicious
of anything coming out of the western world,
and the government was officially atheistic.

A.A. was first established in Fort Wayne on
December 7, 1941, by C. L. Buckley and three
other alcoholics. The group he founded, which
was later called the Buckley Group, was the
first in Fort Wayne. But even in 1945, A.A.
was so little publicized that Dr. Zweig was
not aware that there was a group right there
in Fort Wayne. Since his former patients were
attending an A.A.meeting in Huntington, that
was the only A.A. group he knew about. So at
first he and his alcoholic patients were
driving the twenty plus miles to Huntington
instead of attending the Buckley group back
home in the Fort.

I have never been able to nail down where A.A.
in Huntington originally came from. Did it come
there from the Buckley Group, which had been
inspired by their contact with Indianapolis
A.A.? The old timers I've talked with so far,
said they were not certain, but suspected that
A.A. came to Huntington from an Evansville
newspaper editor at abut the same time the
Buckley Group came to Fort Wayne from Indy. I
suspect the old guys might be right, because
if the Huntington meeting had come from the
Fort, why would Doc's former alcoholic patients
have been driving all the way down to Huntington
at the beginning instead of just attending the
Buckley Group right at home? The Huntington
people would have told them right away about
the group they already had in Fort Wayne.

[Editor's note: Editor: This was probably
J. D. Holmes, the founder of A.A. in Indiana,
who worked for the Evansville newspaper, and
traveled all over Indiana founding AA groups
and bringing literature to new AA groups.]

- - - -

[On AA in Fort Wayne, Indiana, see also
http://hindsfoot.org/barruth.html
"A Nun's Story: Sister Ruth Finds God
in the A.A. Meetings," by John Barleycorn]

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++++Message 4949. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The Stools and Bottle Talk
From: Bob Schultz . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/6/2008 4:27:00 PM

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http://www.epinions.com/content_75295788676

Don't know if this is what you were after.
If not disregard .... Gads, I learn a lot
from this group!!!

bob s

----- Original Message -----
From: Shakey1aa@aol.com
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 3:12 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] The Stools and Bottle Talk

I'd like to know if anyone has a script or a
tape of the stools and bottle talk? I'd like
to get a copy of it? and does anyone make or
know how to purchase the props for the talk?

shakey mike gwirtz

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++++Message 4950. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: William James and Appendix
From: Arthur Sheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/1/2008 12:43:00 AM

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There are two major errors in the Spiritual
Experience Appendix in the Big Book.

The first error is that James never used the
term "educational variety" (nor did he use
the term "experiential").

The second error in the appendix is the
attribution of the "... contempt prior to
investigation" citation to Herbert Spencer.
It should be attributed to William Paley.

In 1901, Harvard professor William James
presented the "Gifford Lecture Series on
Natural Religion" at the University of
Aberdeen in Edinburgh, Scotland. His
lectures were published in 1902 in a
critically acclaimed book titled "The
Varieties of Religious Experience - A Study
In Human Nature."

James cited numerous examples of two styles
of spiritual transformation, one was gradual
and the other was sudden and dramatic. He did
not represent one form as superior to the
other.

32 years after its publication, a copy of
the book was given to Bill W during his last
stay in Towns Hospital. Bill found it deeply
inspiring by its revealing 3 key points for
recovery:

1st: the need for a complete defeat in a vital
area of life (or what we today call "hitting
bottom")

2nd: the admission of defeat (or what we today
call "acceptance") and

3rd: an appeal to a higher power for help
(or what we today call "surrender"). These
spiritual principles later became the basis
for Steps 1, 2 and 3.

In March 1941, almost two years after the
first printing of the first edition Big Book,
the wording of Step 12 was changed in the
second printing. The term "spiritual experience"
was changed to "spiritual awakening" and the
term "as the result of these steps" was changed
to "as the result of those steps."

An appendix titled "Spiritual Experience" was
added. Many members thought they had to have
a sudden, spectacular spiritual experience
similar to the one Bill had in Towns Hospital.
The appendix emphasized that most spiritual
experiences developed slowly over time and
were of the "educational variety."

As a follow on to James' characterization of
conversion experiences it is useful to download
either a searchable PDF or text file version
of the book and then do a string search using
either "sudden" or "gradual." You'll discover
repeated instances where both are described
as different means to the same end with the
end result being what is important - not how
you got there.

Cheers
Arthur

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of rdg1649
Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 6:53 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] William James and Appendix

It is true that James used the term experiental
rather than educational as Bill's appendix to
the Big Book states.

However, it has always struck me that there
is a far greater problem with this appendix.
Reading it I get the impression that Bill is
implying that it is o.k. if a member's
spiritual experience is not of the 'bolt of
lightning' type as he describes his.

In fact, having read James, it is my
impression that James is saying the exact
opposite: That the most lasting and deep
are experiential and not revival type
surges of emotion as Bill describes his.

Seems to me that Bill acurately reports
that James noted a 'variety' of religious
experiences but not with the same emphasis/
orientation that Bill implies.

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++++Message 4951. . . . . . . . . . . . AA history from 1955 to the present
From: James Bliss . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/6/2008 3:56:00 PM

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Below is a brief history of the attempt to
publish the history from 1955 to the present.
It reflects the cost and the process which
this went through before it was finally
discarded. I have also provided some specula-
tion about who the various writers might have
been, drawing that information from a few
different resources.

Hopefully this will be of interest to the
members of this group.

The time line of events was:

1988 – writer 1 prepared a manuscript which
was provided to the Trustees Literature
Committee. They felt it was not appropriate.
A second writer was selected. He was unable
to meet the deadlines needed by AAWS and was
asked to withdraw from the project.

1991 – writer 3 was selected. She had written
“Pass It On” and began work. A draft she
prepared was reviewed by the Trustees
Literature Committee and to ‘readers’ with
special expertise. They provided suggestions
and comments which were incorporated.

1992 - the Conference Literature Committee
received the ‘final’ manuscript from writer 3

1993 – Although there was some unhappiness
regarding the manuscript, it was forwarded on
to the 1992 Conference Literature Committee.
Contractual differences arose between the
author and AAWS and writer 3 resigned

1993 – writer 4 was hired to clear up certain
sections and write a new one. This fairly
complete manuscript was forwarded to the 1993
Conference Literature Committee who recommended
the project be deferred for 2 years so that a
new group from AA could look at it with fresh
ideas.

The project died at this time.

The following was a review of the history as
provided by AAWS:

1985 – the Conference Literature Committee
formed a subcommittee to develop an outline
for an in depth history from 1955 – 1985
similar to “A.A. Comes of Age”

1986 – An outline for a definitive history
was prepared and forwarded to the Conference
Literature Committee for consideration. The
Conference Literature Committee recommended
that a definitive book on A.A. history from
1955 – 1985 be prepared and presented to the
1987 Conference.

1987 – The committee reviewed the progress
report on the first 13 rough chapters. It was
indicated that the first draft manuscript to
included 26 chapters of approximately 700
pages would be ready by the January 1988
deadline.

1988 – The committee reviewed the cover letter
and table of contents of the first draft
manuscript of the A.A. History Book and
recommended that it be referred to the
Conference Literature Committee. The 1988
Conference recommended that work continue on
the A.A. History Book.

Following the Conference, the committee
affirmed:

- the Trustees Literature Committee will
assume responsibility for this project through
a subcommittee

- the publications director will be asked to
find a writer whose specialty is history and
that the current writer will continue the
effort of obtaining missing area histories

- it was the consensus of the committee that
the section on area histories should be treated
as a separate archival project

- it was suggested that the Conference
Literature Committee be asked for suggestions
with regard to how the material should be
handled

1989 – The area histories were separated from
the first manuscript and forwarded to the
Archives Committee on the recommendation of
the 1989 Conference Literature Committee

Writers experienced in producing historical
reviews were asked to submit outlines for the
subcommittee prior to the Conference so that
a status report could be prepared for the
Conference Literature Committee. The sub-
committee selected a writer and a timetable
with estimated completion in January, 1991.
The Conference Literature Committee recommended
that the A.A. History from 1955 forwarded
focusing on major events and developments
since the co-founders turned A.A. over to
the Fellowship, rather than centering on the
beginnings of A.A. and histories of the 91
areas of the U.S. and Canada be continued.

1990 – the subcommittee’s review of the outline
and draft chapters led to a re-emphasis of the
guidelines along with the suggestion for
stronger editorial control, and recommended
that the summary of progress be provided to
the Conference Literature Committee, along
with the reaffirmation that draft copies not
be circulated in advance of the completion
of the manuscript. In late February the sub-
committee and author part and the search for
a replacement was undertaken. An experienced
writer, with broad background with A.A.
literature was subsequently hired). The
Conference Literature Committee recommended
that the project continue to completion. This
became a Conference Action.

1991 – the subcommittee reported that the
project was on schedule with the manuscript
to be delivered by March, 1992.

1992 – The Trustees Literature Committee
recommended that the A.A. History Book be
forwarded to the Conference Literature Commit-
tee. The Conference Literature Committee
recommended that the manuscript be returned
to the 1992 Conference Literature Committee
and then forwarded to the 1993 Conference
Literature Committee.

1993 – A.A. History Book completed draft
manuscript was forwarded to the Conference
Literature Committee which recommended that
the project be deferred for 2 years so that
a new team of A.A. servants can look at the
history book with fresh ideas.

1996 – Trustees Literature Committee discussed
and did not approve a request to revive the
History Book project. Conference Literature
Committee recommendation NOT adopted by the
Conference: “That the manuscript originally
commissioned as a history book be relabeled
“collected observations of Alcoholics Anonymous”
and that it be placed in the Archives and made
available for purchase at a cost upon request
after editing for anonymity and various speci-
fic concerns relating to accuracy of content
and style.

1997 – The Trustees Literature Committee
discussed requests regarding the draft of
the A.A. History Book written by <writer 3
from the first description above> (and others)
and agreed that it not be made available
in the Archives or anywhere else since it
runs the risk of becoming ‘unofficial’ A.A.
literature and could involve legal problems.

1998 – the Trustees Literature Committee
forwarded to the Conference Literature
Committee an area request that a second
history book be developed. The Conference
Literature Committee agreed there was no
compelling need to develop this project.

Expenses:

Paid 86 – 92

224,000
117,000
_______

341,000 (sub total)

1992 - 5,000

1992 - 8,000

1993 - 26,000
_______

380,000 (total)

From some information I was provided (from
Glenn C. on this list) and the documentation
which I have, I am speculating:

Writer 1 was Bob Pearsons - this is pure
speculation but appears to be well founded
from the follow up email. The alternative is
that he is writer 2 since the group history
was not the focus of his material and writer 1
appeared to focus more on the history of the
groups rather that AAWS.

Writer 2 was Charles Hanson – this is pure
speculation – perhaps he was writer 1 if
his material was more focused on the groups
than AAWS.

Writer 3 was Catherine Noren – from my
documentation

Writer 4 - ???? - this appears to be a fairly
minor role, one of cleaning up and not adding
much substantive content.

- - - -

Message 4942 from <ArtSheehan@msn.com>
(ArtSheehan at msn.com) said:

"The attempt to write an AA history from 1955
had to be abandoned. I suspect Conference
approval for any type of historical work would
be one heck of a major challenge (and probably
rightfully so)."

- - - -

Message 4944 from "Mel Barger"
<melb@accesstoledo.com>
(melb at accesstoledo.com) said:

"You referred to the ill-starred attempt to
produce an AA history covering the period from
1955 on. I understand that this failed because
delegates were unhappy with the histories of
their own areas, for various reasons. The
project was finally shelved after spending a
small fortune producing a version. It
did get out somehow, and I have a copy for
occasional reference, but there is no approved
copy anywhere. I've concluded that AA will
never have an authorized history covering
this period; the job will be left to outside
writers by default."

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++++Message 4952. . . . . . . . . . . . Conf-approv literature & AA history
from 1955
From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/7/2008 5:22:00 AM

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I guess Conference-approved means that that
literature carries the imprimatur, or at
least endorsement, of the Fellowship's
collective group conscience; but as the
Big Book itself reminds us, "There are many
helpful books also. Suggestions about these
may be obtained from one's priest, minister
or rabbi." And as an open-minded agnostic,
I would add - or from Amazon or a library!

- - - -

From: pvttimt@aol.com
(pvttimt at aol.com)

If one studies history a bit, one begins to
see that any "true history" is simply the
aggregate experience of all who lived through
the events of interest. I'm thinking that
you may be doing a huge service to the
fellowship by compiling good primary reference
material for future historians to sift once
the old-timers that cause all the controversy
are gone from the scene! It's the old "blind
men describing the elephant" problem. No
"history" is ever complete, or completely
"true," whatever that is supposed to mean.

Best regards. Tim T., an alky

- - - -

From: joseph fischer <joehenryfish@yahoo.com>
(joehenryfish at yahoo.com)

Ernest Kurtz who wrote the book Not God was
given access to the archives.

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++++Message 4953. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Significant April Dates in A.A.
History
From: Arthur Sheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/7/2008 5:46:00 PM

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From Arthur Sheehan, Tom Hickcox, and John Lee:

- - - -

From: "Arthur Sheehan" <ArtSheehan@msn.com>
(ArtSheehan at msn.com)

Last December I requested that timelines or
date listings be validated and cross-referenced
to corroborating sources. Otherwise there is
risk in distributing misinformation instead
of factual information. There are too many of
these types of lists already in circulation
that unfortunately are interpreted as authori-
tative. The timeline distributed for April
has a number of errors for the dates shown
below [corrections are in brackets - I didn't
check every entry so there may be more]:

April 1, 1939 - Publication date of Alcoholics
Anonymous, AA's Big Book.

[The copyright application states a publication
date of April 10, 1939.]

April 1, 1940 - Larry J. of Houston, wrote
"The Texas Prayer", used to open AA meetings
in Texas.

[It was written in March 1940 with the title
"A.A. Prayer" not "The Texas Prayer." Outside
of Houston there is no evidence of widespread
usage to "open AA meetings in Texas"]

April 11, 1938 - The Alcoholic Foundation
formed as a trusteeship for A.A. (sometimes
reported as May 1938).

[The trust indenture document of the Alcoholic
Foundation marks its inception as August 5,
1938. Its first meeting was on August 11, 1938]

April 11, 1941 - Bill and Lois finally found
a home, Stepping Stones in New Bedford.

[The city is Bedford Hills, NY. The initial
name they gave their home was "Bill-Lo's Break"
and later renamed it "Stepping Stones." New
Bedford is in Massachusetts. That is where
Bill went through part of his military training
and where he had his first drink]

April 22, 1940 - Bill and Hank transfer
their Works Publishing stock to the Alcoholic
Foundation.

[The letter signed by Bill and Hank transfer-
ring the stock is dated April 24, 1940. It
also included a requirement that Dr Bob and
his wife Anne receive a 10% royalty on Big
Book sales for life]

April 23, 1940 - Dr. Bob wrote the Trustees to
refuse Big Book royalties, but Bill W insisted
that Dr. Bob and Anne receive them.

[This can be misleading as stated (see page
269 in "Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers").
Dr Bob accepted royalties from Big Book sales
all his life. He started infrequently receiving
royalties in 1940 (and shared them with Bill).
Bill started receiving royalties shortly after
the outbreak of World War II]

April 25, 1951 - AA's first General Service
Conference was held.

[It was held at the Hotel Commodore, New
York City on April 20-21-22, 1951]

I make a lot of errors with dates and am
nothing near perfect, so I'm not trying to
do a putdown of the submitter. However, a
forum like AAHistoryLovers should be propa-
gating facts not misinformation. I would
again like to request that timelines not be
distributed in AAHistoryLovers unless they
contain references corroborating the dates
and events stated.

Arthur

- - - -

From: Tom Hickcox <cometkazie1@cox.net>
(cometkazie1 at cox.net)

At 23:34 3/31/2008 , you wrote:

>April 11, 1941 - Bill and Lois finally found
>a home, Stepping Stones in New Bedford.

I believe we went round and round with this
a couple of years ago. There is no such place
as New Bedford, New York. Stepping Stones is
in Bedford Hills or Bedford. See what the
address is and who they pay local taxes to.
In that area one usually pays taxes to the
township the property is located within.

>April 16, 1940 - A sober Rollie H. catches
>the only opening day no-hitter in baseball
>history since 1909.

It would be interesting to have the teams and
the score.

>April 16, 1973 - Dr. Jack Norris presented
>President Nixon with the one millionth copy
>of the Big Book. April 19, 1940 - The first
>AA group in Little Rock, Arkansas, was
>formed. First 'mail order' group.

Was the Little Rock Group the mail order group?

>April 24, 1989 - Dr. Leonard Strong died.

We might mention that he was Lois' brother.
At least I think he was.

>April 25, 1939 - Morgan R interviewed on
>Gabriel Heatter radio show.
>April 25, 1951 - AA's first General Service
>Conference was held.

Where?

Tommy

- - - -

From: John Lee <johnlawlee@yahoo.com>
(johnlawlee at yahoo.com)

April 11, 1941: Bill and Lois' address was
Bedford Hills, not New Bedford. Stepping Stones
is actually located in Katonah, New York, not
Bedford Hills [if you ever choose to visit].

John Lee

- - - -

From the moderator: please see the next
message, number 4954, on Bedford, Bedford
Hills, and Katonah. The TOWN is named
Bedford.

Katonah is a hamlet at the north town line.
Bedford Hills is an unincorporated hamlet
also contained within the Town of Bedford.

ALL of the Town of Bedford put together only
has a population of 18,133. This is NOT a
big, hairy deal. Just ask one of the locals
after you get there where 62 Oak Road is,
O.K. ????

Even the official Stepping Stones website
can't decide whether Bill and Lois' place
ought better be described as being in "Bedford
Hills" or in "Katonah," so they have it one
way on one page, and the other way on another.

Glenn C.

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of chesbayman56
Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2008 12:35 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Significant April Dates in A.A. History

April 1935 - Dr. Silkworth told Bill to quit preaching at drunks &
tell them of obsession & allergy.
April 1950 - Saturday Evening Post article "The Drunkard's Best
Friend" by Jack Alexander.
April 1958 - The word "honest" dropped from AA Preamble, "an honest
desire to stop drinking".
April 1966 - Change in ratio of trustees of the General Service
Board; now two thirds (majority) are alcoholic.
April 1970 - GSO moved to 468 Park Ave. South, NYC.
April 1, 1939 - Publication date of Alcoholics Anonymous, AA's Big
Book.
April 1, 1940 - Larry J. of Houston, wrote "The Texas Prayer", used
to open AA meetings in Texas.
April 1, 1966 - Sister Ignatia died.
April 2, 1966 - Harry Tiebout, M.D. died.
April 3, 1941 - First AA meeting held in Florida.
April 3, 1960 - Fr. Ed Dowling, S.J., died. He was Bill
W's "spiritual sponsor."
April 7, 1941 - Ruth Hock reported there were 1,500 letters asking
for help as a result of the Saturday Evening Post Article by Jack
Alexander.
April 10, 1939 - The first ten copies of the Big Book arrived at the
office Bill and Hank P shared.
April 11, 1938 - The Alcoholic Foundation formed as a trusteeship for
A.A. (sometimes reported as May 1938)
April 11, 1941 - Bill and Lois finally found a home, Stepping Stones
in New Bedford.
April 16, 1940 - A sober Rollie H. catches the only opening day no-
hitter in baseball history since 1909.
April 16, 1973 - Dr. Jack Norris presented President Nixon with the
one millionth copy of the Big Book.
April 19, 1940 - The first AA group in Little Rock, Arkansas, was
formed. First 'mail order' group.
April 19, 1941 - The first AA group in the State of Washington was
formed in Seattle.
April 22, 1940 - Bill and Hank transfer their Works Publishing stock
to the Alcoholic Foundation.
April 23, 1940 - Dr. Bob wrote the Trustees to refuse Big Book
royalties, but Bill W insisted that Dr. Bob and Anne receive them.
April 24, 1940 - The first AA pamphlet, "AA", was published.
April 24, 1989 - Dr. Leonard Strong died.
April 25, 1939 - Morgan R interviewed on Gabriel Heatter radio show.
April 25, 1951 - AA's first General Service Conference was held.
April 26 or May 1, 1939 - Bank forecloses on 182 Clinton Street.
April 30, 1989 - Film "My Name is Bill W." a Hallmark presentation
was broadcast on ABC TV.

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++++Message 4954. . . . . . . . . . . . Stepping Stones: Bedford, Bedford
Hills, and Katonah
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/11/2008 5:00:00 PM

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Where is Stepping Stones located, Bill and
Lois Wilson's home?

- - - -

It is not in "New Bedford." There are five
towns by this name in the United States, but
none of them are in the right state:

New Bedford, Massachusetts, the most populous
New Bedford, Illinois
New Bedford, New Jersey
New Bedford, Ohio
New Bedford, Pennsylvania

- - - -

The TOWN in New York state is named Bedford.

Katonah is a hamlet contained within the
Town of Bedford, located at the north town
line.

Bedford Hills is an unincorporated hamlet
also contained within the Town of Bedford.

ALL of the Town of Bedford put together only
has a population of 18,133.

Even the official Stepping Stones website
can't decide whether Bill and Lois' place
ought better be described as being in
"Bedford Hills" or in "Katonah," so they
have it one way on one page, and the other
way on another.

- - - -

Stepping Stones: The Historic Home of Bill
and Lois Wilson

http://www.steppingstones.org/ says:

"Located 45 minutes north of NYC by car
and 1 hour by train, in Bedford Hills, NY"

- - - -

http://www.steppingstones.org/visiting.html says:

"62 Oak Road, Katonah, New York 10536"

- - - -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katonah,_New_York says:

"Katonah, New York is one of three
unincorporated hamlets within the town
of Bedford, Westchester County."

"Katonah is often styled as a 'village' by
its residents. For example, its library is
called the Katonah Village Library. However,
'village' has a legal meaning in New York.
Katonah is not a village, but merely a hamlet,
a non-legally-defined section of a town.
Katonah does have its own ZIP code, 10536,
and a Metro-North station. It is also part of
the Katonah-Lewisboro school district."

- - - -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bedford_Hills,_New_York says:

"Bedford Hills is an unincorporated hamlet
in the Town of Bedford, New York. When the
railroad was built in 1847, Bedford Hills was
known as Bedford Station. Bedford Hills extends
from a business center at the railroad station
to farms and estates, eastward along Harris,
Babbitt and Bedford Center Roads and south
along the Route 117 business corridor up to
Mt. Kisco. Bedford Hills is the seat of
government of the Town of Bedford."

- - - -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bedford_%28town%29%2C_New_York says:

"Bedford is a town in Westchester County,
New York, USA. The population was 18,133 at
the 2000 census. The Town of Bedford is in
the central part of the county."

"Communities and locations in Bedford:
Bedford Village -- A hamlet in the southeast
part of the town, also known as Bedford.

Bedford Hills -- A hamlet in the Cross River
Reservoir -- A reservoir in the northern
portion of the town.

Katonah -- A hamlet at the north town line.

Bedford Corners -- A very small hamlet
neighboring larger town Mount Kisco."

Among the famous people who have lived there are:

"William G. Wilson, co-founder of Alcoholics
Anonymous, resident of Bedford, 1941-1971.
Lois B. Wilson, co-founder of Al-Anon family
groups, resident of Bedford, 1941-1988."

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++++Message 4955. . . . . . . . . . . . AA History before or after 1955
From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/10/2008 9:26:00 AM

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Some years ago (1997-8) a proposal was made
to the Trustees for a History of AA (to be
ready in 2010), but from the beginning (1935)
not from 1955.

It was, of course, not accepted. But the
terms of that proposal point up a problem.

AA COMES OF AGE does present pieces of a
history 1935-1955 from Bill's point of view.
Ernie's NOT GOD and the Barry Leach-Jack
Norris piece in Begleiter's monumental
multi-volume set do provide historical
materials up to 1977-79 (and then Ernie's
later edition into the early 1990s).

But huge amounts of local and regional
historical work are needed (over the entire
period from 1935 at least)-- and an acceptable
over-all framework needs to be set -- and we
need institutional history especially for more
recent years -- before anything like a full
history of AA from 1935 can be written (and
that by a professional historian who would
ideally also be a member of AA).

My own view, for what it's worth, is that we
cannot just begin in 1955, as though all that
had to be said for the time to 1955 had been
said in AA COMES OF AGE.

I think of two volumes for the history thus
far THE CHARISMATIC PERIOD: FROM THE BEGINNING
TO BILL'S DEATH (1934-1971) and THE PERIOD OF
ROUTINE: FROM BILL'S DEATH TO THE PRESENT
(1971-2008), and the two volumes would be
very different as the history is very
different -- but I also don't see it
happening.

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++++Message 4956. . . . . . . . . . . . Origin of the term "Character
Defect"
From: jeffyour . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/10/2008 9:46:00 AM

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Good morning, all.

A question came up at my home group last week
and I promised to do a little digging to come
up with an 'informed' answer. Who better to
ask than all of you?

I've run a cursory search of the archives
of this discussion board and found nothing
that addresses the historical origin of the
term "Character Defects". There is nothing
as rigorous as the kind of scholarly exposure
that "contempt prior to investigation" has
received.

In message 2947:

In a July 1953 Grapevine article titled "A
Fragment of History - the Origin of the 12
Steps" Bill W identified the Oxford Group as
one of the 3 main channels of inspiration for
AA's 12 Steps. Bill identified the other 2
main channels of inspiration for the 12 Steps
as William James and Dr Silkworth.

In "AA Comes of Age" (pg 39) Bill wrote
"Early AA got its ideas of self-examination,
acknowledgment of character defects,
restitution for harm done, and working with
others straight from the Oxford Groups and
directly from Sam Shoemaker, their former
leader in America, and from nowhere else."

and in message 2460:

"From 1935 to 1948, The Upper Room was read
every morning by more AAs than any other
meditational work. Although the Oxford Group
had the greatest influence on the development
of early A.A. at the very beginning, The
Upper Room was clearly the second greatest
influence on early A.A. spirituality. You
can see the effect of ideas drawn from The
Upper Room throughout the first 164 pages of
the Big Book.

"For a quick look at the kinds of things the
Upper Room talked about, see
<http://hindsfoot.org/UpRm1.html>, which
gives selections from the readings in some
of the issues of The Upper Room published
in 1938 and 1939, along with commentary
explaining some of the ideas which A.A. drew
from this source: an important part of their
understanding of what was meant by character
and character defects, the emphasis on
happiness as an inside job, the idea of the
Divine Light within, and warnings against
being too imprisoned by doctrines..."

Is this a term directly from William James?
or from Oxford Group literature (and I wonder
where THEY got it?)

thx

In grateful service,

Jeffrey A. Your
Delegate
Area 54, Panel 57
Northeast Ohio General Service

216_691_0917 home

216_397_4244 work

216_397_1803 fax

216_496_7594 cell

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++++Message 4957. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA history from 1955 to the
present
From: David . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/10/2008 9:02:00 PM

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$384,000 was expended on a book which was
never completed or allowed to be completed.
The Trustees Literature Committee then
"agreed that it not be made available in the
Archives or anywhere else since it runs the
risk of becoming `unofficial' A.A.literature
and could involve legal problems."

Questions:

1. Have other pieces of literature, involving
over a quarter of a million dollars in
expenditures, been banned from the archives
and kept secret?

2. Did the Trustees Literature Committee
specifically cite the actual"legal problems"
it was concerned about? What were they?

3. Did the Trustees Literature Committee
explain what risk they were referring to
when speaking of "unofficial" AA literature?

4. Does anyone know how whether or not
separate service groups like the Trustees
Literature Committee regularly dictated what
another service group, like the Archives,
could do or could not do? In other words ...
is there a hierarchy of service groups?

It seems the Trustees Literature Committee
not only made the decision to abandon a
project in which it already had made a
sizable investment, it also "buried" all
materials generated from that outlay of
$384,000. I can see the former as part of
their role, but it seems over-reaching on
the latter. Did not Archives have a point
of view? What process resolves inherent
conflicts like this? Thanks!

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, James Bliss <james.bliss@...>
wrote:
>
> Below is a brief history of the attempt to
> publish the history from 1955 to the present.
> It reflects the cost and the process which
> this went through before it was finally
> discarded. I have also provided some specula-
> tion about who the various writers might have
> been, drawing that information from a few
> different resources.
>
> Hopefully this will be of interest to the
> members of this group.
>
> The time line of events was:
>
> 1988 – writer 1 prepared a manuscript which
> was provided to the Trustees Literature
> Committee. They felt it was not appropriate.
> A second writer was selected. He was unable
> to meet the deadlines needed by AAWS and was
> asked to withdraw from the project.
>
> 1991 – writer 3 was selected. She had written
> "Pass It On" and began work. A draft she
> prepared was reviewed by the Trustees
> Literature Committee and to `readers' with
> special expertise. They provided suggestions
> and comments which were incorporated.
>
> 1992 - the Conference Literature Committee
> received the `final' manuscript from writer 3
>
> 1993 – Although there was some unhappiness
> regarding the manuscript, it was forwarded on
> to the 1992 Conference Literature Committee.
> Contractual differences arose between the
> author and AAWS and writer 3 resigned
>
> 1993 – writer 4 was hired to clear up certain
> sections and write a new one. This fairly
> complete manuscript was forwarded to the 1993
> Conference Literature Committee who recommended
> the project be deferred for 2 years so that a
> new group from AA could look at it with fresh
> ideas.
>
> The project died at this time.
>
> The following was a review of the history as
> provided by AAWS:
>
> 1985 – the Conference Literature Committee
> formed a subcommittee to develop an outline
> for an in depth history from 1955 – 1985
> similar to "A.A. Comes of Age"
>
> 1986 – An outline for a definitive history
> was prepared and forwarded to the Conference
> Literature Committee for consideration. The
> Conference Literature Committee recommended
> that a definitive book on A.A. history from
> 1955 – 1985 be prepared and presented to the
> 1987 Conference.
>
> 1987 – The committee reviewed the progress
> report on the first 13 rough chapters. It was
> indicated that the first draft manuscript to
> included 26 chapters of approximately 700
> pages would be ready by the January 1988
> deadline.
>
> 1988 – The committee reviewed the cover letter
> and table of contents of the first draft
> manuscript of the A.A. History Book and
> recommended that it be referred to the
> Conference Literature Committee. The 1988
> Conference recommended that work continue on
> the A.A. History Book.
>
> Following the Conference, the committee
> affirmed:
>
> - the Trustees Literature Committee will
> assume responsibility for this project through
> a subcommittee
>
> - the publications director will be asked to
> find a writer whose specialty is history and
> that the current writer will continue the
> effort of obtaining missing area histories
>
> - it was the consensus of the committee that
> the section on area histories should be treated
> as a separate archival project
>
> - it was suggested that the Conference
> Literature Committee be asked for suggestions
> with regard to how the material should be
> handled
>
> 1989 – The area histories were separated from
> the first manuscript and forwarded to the
> Archives Committee on the recommendation of
> the 1989 Conference Literature Committee
>
> Writers experienced in producing historical
> reviews were asked to submit outlines for the
> subcommittee prior to the Conference so that
> a status report could be prepared for the
> Conference Literature Committee. The sub-
> committee selected a writer and a timetable
> with estimated completion in January, 1991.
> The Conference Literature Committee recommended
> that the A.A. History from 1955 forwarded
> focusing on major events and developments
> since the co-founders turned A.A. over to
> the Fellowship, rather than centering on the
> beginnings of A.A. and histories of the 91
> areas of the U.S. and Canada be continued.
>
> 1990 – the subcommittee's review of the outline
> and draft chapters led to a re-emphasis of the
> guidelines along with the suggestion for
> stronger editorial control, and recommended
> that the summary of progress be provided to
> the Conference Literature Committee, along
> with the reaffirmation that draft copies not
> be circulated in advance of the completion
> of the manuscript. In late February the sub-
> committee and author part and the search for
> a replacement was undertaken. An experienced
> writer, with broad background with A.A.
> literature was subsequently hired). The
> Conference Literature Committee recommended
> that the project continue to completion. This
> became a Conference Action.
>
> 1991 – the subcommittee reported that the
> project was on schedule with the manuscript
> to be delivered by March, 1992.
>
> 1992 – The Trustees Literature Committee
> recommended that the A.A. History Book be
> forwarded to the Conference Literature Commit-
> tee. The Conference Literature Committee
> recommended that the manuscript be returned
> to the 1992 Conference Literature Committee
> and then forwarded to the 1993 Conference
> Literature Committee.
>
> 1993 – A.A. History Book completed draft
> manuscript was forwarded to the Conference
> Literature Committee which recommended that
> the project be deferred for 2 years so that
> a new team of A.A. servants can look at the
> history book with fresh ideas.
>
> 1996 – Trustees Literature Committee discussed
> and did not approve a request to revive the
> History Book project. Conference Literature
> Committee recommendation NOT adopted by the
> Conference: "That the manuscript originally
> commissioned as a history book be relabeled
> "collected observations of Alcoholics Anonymous"
> and that it be placed in the Archives and made
> available for purchase at a cost upon request
> after editing for anonymity and various speci-
> fic concerns relating to accuracy of content
> and style.
>
> 1997 – The Trustees Literature Committee
> discussed requests regarding the draft of
> the A.A. History Book written by <writer 3
> from the first description above> (and others)
> and agreed that it not be made available
> in the Archives or anywhere else since it
> runs the risk of becoming `unofficial' A.A.
> literature and could involve legal problems.
>
> 1998 – the Trustees Literature Committee
> forwarded to the Conference Literature
> Committee an area request that a second
> history book be developed. The Conference
> Literature Committee agreed there was no
> compelling need to develop this project.
>
> Expenses:
>
> Paid 86 – 92
>
> 224,000
> 117,000
> _______
>
> 341,000 (sub total)
>
> 1992 - 5,000
>
> 1992 - 8,000
>
> 1993 - 26,000
> _______
>
> 380,000 (total)
>
> From some information I was provided (from
> Glenn C. on this list) and the documentation
> which I have, I am speculating:
>
> Writer 1 was Bob Pearsons - this is pure
> speculation but appears to be well founded
> from the follow up email. The alternative is
> that he is writer 2 since the group history
> was not the focus of his material and writer 1
> appeared to focus more on the history of the
> groups rather that AAWS.
>
> Writer 2 was Charles Hanson – this is pure
> speculation – perhaps he was writer 1 if
> his material was more focused on the groups
> than AAWS.
>
> Writer 3 was Catherine Noren – from my
> documentation
>
> Writer 4 - ???? - this appears to be a fairly
> minor role, one of cleaning up and not adding
> much substantive content.
>
> - - - -
>
> Message 4942 from ArtSheehan@...
> (ArtSheehan at msn.com) said:
>
> "The attempt to write an AA history from 1955
> had to be abandoned. I suspect Conference
> approval for any type of historical work would
> be one heck of a major challenge (and probably
> rightfully so)."
>
> - - - -
>
> Message 4944 from "Mel Barger"
> melb@...
> (melb at accesstoledo.com) said:
>
> "You referred to the ill-starred attempt to
> produce an AA history covering the period from
> 1955 on. I understand that this failed because
> delegates were unhappy with the histories of
> their own areas, for various reasons. The
> project was finally shelved after spending a
> small fortune producing a version. It
> did get out somehow, and I have a copy for
> occasional reference, but there is no approved
> copy anywhere. I've concluded that AA will
> never have an authorized history covering
> this period; the job will be left to outside
> writers by default."
>

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++++Message 4958. . . . . . . . . . . . Opening Day No-Hitter April 16 1940
From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/11/2008 5:27:00 PM

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Cleveland Indians vs. Chicago White Sox,
WP Bob Feller LP Edgar Smith. Score 1-0.

Only run was batted in by Catcher Rollie
Hemsley.

An autographed game ball was given by Rollie
to Dr. Bob and I believe is in the collection

at Brown. I believe Bob Feller may still be
alive at 89 or so -- I don't know if anyone
has approached him for his recollections of
Rollie, or if indeed they exist already.

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++++Message 4959. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Conf-approv literature & AA
history from 1955
From: Al Welch . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/10/2008 8:53:00 AM

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From Al Welch and junebug0619

- - - -

From: "Al Welch" <welch@a-1associates.com>
(welch at a-1associates.com)

Another definition of Conference-approved is
that it is owned by, printed by and distributed
only by the GSO in New York City. (and I don't
necessarily think that is a bad thing - it
just sounds that way!)

- - - -

From: junebug0619@aol.com
(junebug0619 at aol.com)

I agree that there are many helpful books
outside the realm of AA. Alcoholics Anonymous
is a text book for sobriety. I need info for
the heart and soul.

----- Original Message -----
From: "jenny andrews" <jennylaurie1@hotmail.com>
To: <aahistorylovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 5:22 AM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Conf-approv literature & AA history from 1955

>I guess Conference-approved means that that
> literature carries the imprimatur, or at
> least endorsement, of the Fellowship's
> collective group conscience; but as the
> Big Book itself reminds us, "There are many
> helpful books also. Suggestions about these
> may be obtained from one's priest, minister
> or rabbi." And as an open-minded agnostic,
> I would add - or from Amazon or a library!

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++++Message 4960. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Opening Day No-Hitter April 16
1940
From: aalogsdon@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/11/2008 4:01:00 PM

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From Jerry Logsdon and Buck R.

- - - -

From Jerry Logsdon <aalogsdon@aol.com>
(aalogsdon at aol.com)

I have talked to Bob Feller on three different
occasions about Rollie Hemsley and had him
sign baseballs IN MEMORY OF ROLLIE HEMSLEY.
I have a large collection of Hemsley photos
and some of these Feller identified for me and
recalled incidents about the photographs. He
was still sharp and knows a great deal about
Hemsley.

He (Feller) will be appearing in person at his
museum in Van Meter, Iowa on Saturday, June 21.
The phone number there is 515_996_2806.

I have been communicating with a gentleman who
is in the process of writing a book regarding
Hemsley and have shared information with him.
I have four autographed baseballs from Hemsley
and more items.

Jerry Logsdon
714_321_7665

- - - -

From: Buck R. = Jonathan Rose
<jbuckrose1@mac.com> (jbuckrose1 at mac.com)

In his book "Now Pitching, Bob Feller: A
Baseball Memoir", Feller makes numerous
mention of Rollie Hemsley. Feller, by the
way, is the second oldest living Baseball
Hall of Famer.

On page 16 he talks about "Rollickin'
Rollie Hemsley and his alcohol-inspired
Superman feats like tip-toeing along hotel
ledges ten floors above downtown streets";

On page 73: "But I've always had enormous
respect for Rollie Hemsley because he did
something that the rest of us might not have
been strong enough to do. Cy Slapnicka
convinced Rollie to join Alcoholics Anonymous
after he got off to such a rocky start with
us in 1938. As an incentive, Slap gave a
large diamond ring to Rollie's daughter, the
person who meant more to him than anyone else
in the world. It worked. Rollie took the
pledge. He drank about a case of Cokes a day
for a while because he needed that sugar that
he wasn't getting from booze any more, but he
never went back to the hard stuff."

(Note: Cy Slapnicka was the Indians' General
Manager)

in fellowship,
Buck R.

- - - -

From the moderator:

Rollie Hemsley = Ralston Burdett Hemsley

photo at
http://www.aabibliography.com/aahtml3/rollynews.jpg

photo and part of his story at
http://members.tripod.com/bb_catchers/catchers/hemsley.htm

photo and brief story at
http://www.baseballlibrary.com/ballplayers/player.php?name=Rollie_Hemsley_19
07

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++++Message 4961. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Conf-approv literature & AA
history from 1955
From: Arthur Sheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/12/2008 1:44:00 AM

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Hi Al

GSO does not have an ownership role. I don't
mean to split hairs but at times the acronym
"GSO" is used when the correct acronym is
"AAWS." AA World Services, Inc (AAWS) and
AA Grapevine, Inc are the legal corporate
entities that hold and preserve copyrights,
trademarks and service marks owned by AA.
The GSO also produces a number of literature
items that are not Conference-approved (i.e.
service pieces).

Page S70 of the Service Manual states: "The
General Service Board is responsible for the
General Service Office and the Grapevine, and
it takes care of its administrative duties
through two operating corporations. One is
A.A. World Services, Inc., which oversees the
General Service Office and publishes A.A.’s
books and pamphlets. The other is The A.A.
Grapevine, Inc., which oversees the Grapevine
office and publishes and distributes the A.A.
Grapevine magazine, the Spanish edition,
La Viña, and related items. The two entities
need to be incorporated in order to accomplish
such tasks as publishing and distributing
literature, handling funds, and conducting
other vital aspects of A.A.’s business."

Cheers
Arthur

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Al Welch
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 7:53 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Conf-approv literature & AA history from 1955

From Al Welch and junebug0619

- - - -

From: "Al Welch" <welch@a-1associates.com>
(welch at a-1associates.com)

Another definition of Conference-approved is
that it is owned by, printed by and distributed
only by the GSO in New York City. (and I don't
necessarily think that is a bad thing - it
just sounds that way!)

- - - -

From: junebug0619@aol.com
(junebug0619 at aol.com)

I agree that there are many helpful books
outside the realm of AA. Alcoholics Anonymous
is a text book for sobriety. I need info for
the heart and soul.

----- Original Message -----
From: "jenny andrews" <jennylaurie1@hotmail.com>
To: <aahistorylovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 5:22 AM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Conf-approv literature & AA history from 1955

>I guess Conference-approved means that that
> literature carries the imprimatur, or at
> least endorsement, of the Fellowship's
> collective group conscience; but as the
> Big Book itself reminds us, "There are many
> helpful books also. Suggestions about these
> may be obtained from one's priest, minister
> or rabbi." And as an open-minded agnostic,
> I would add - or from Amazon or a library!

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++++Message 4962. . . . . . . . . . . . Milestones of Alcoholics Anonymous
by Bill
From: gmaxham . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/12/2008 2:50:00 PM

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Hello

Can you tell me what these records are? A man
here in Maine has a set of three.

I think I can get them recorded if they're
worth doing. He wants to leave them with his
family. But I've been working on it with him.

Thank you,

Gordon Maxham
Area 28 archivist

Milestones of Alcoholics Anonymous by Bill
on red records.

I should explain a little more, I think I know
what's on the records. Just have never seen on
red records. Are these originals or what? Have
researched the Internet for two or three years
and still have never seen red records like
these.

Thank you Gordon

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++++Message 4963. . . . . . . . . . . . Early AA member Mary Martto
From: gmaxham . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/12/2008 3:02:00 PM

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We have a first edition first printing Big
Book with all kinds of interesting signatures
from Stepping Stones.

The woman's name that it belonged to is
Mary Martto. Does anyone know who this woman
is? We were told she is the second or third
woman in AA.

Area 28 archivist Gordon Maxham

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++++Message 4964. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA history from 1955 to the
present
From: ricktompkins . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/11/2008 11:44:00 PM

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Frank B., a past Chicago Area 19 Delegate to the Conference in the early
1990s, sat on Trustees Literature Committee as an Appointed Committee Member
in the mid-to-late 1990s. It was not a glorious post because the ACMs had
large tasks to perform for the Literature Committee. Frank shared one of his
assignments: the immense editing on our second AA History book that the
Trustees Literature Committee had undertaken in conjunction with an AA
Archives request. Simply, there had to be some of the writing that could be
available to the Fellowship as an accessible history, to aid in further
research. This was the last effort for an AA historybook (the one that
followed Bob P.'s effort in the 1980s) and has David's list of questions on
much of the process.

The General Service Conference's Conference Literature Committee reviewed
the manuscript as presented by Trustees Literature Committee in 1993 and
found it lacking a needed AA vitality and general relevance. Eventually the
edited manuscript was placed in the AA Archives with the AA Archivist's
notice (with the full support of the Trustees Archives Committee) that any
legitimate AA Archives Committee (Area or District) could receive copied
sections from the manuscript that related to the requestor's specific Region
and location.

I served my Illinois Area 20 as Archivist from 1998-2002 and received a copy
from the section written about history in the East Central Region (the Great
Lakes, from Wisconsin east to Ohio). Believe me, it was too dry to keep my
own interest. What the authors considered as relevant appeared to me as
irrelevant---name dropping, vague site descriptions, and no real coherence
or continuity in the chronicle. And, if this historybook was supposed to
detail AA's history past 1955, why did it have the supposed origins of ECR
groups back to the 1940s? The facts were generally incorrect and too vague,
very few 'interviewees' contributed what the manuscript presented as fact,
and so on. I can agree with the 1993 Conference Literature Committee that
this work was not up to any AA standard of excellence.

I am cynical to share that the manuscript could have been chapters that were
struck from "Dr. Bob and the Oldtimers," but my disappointment in the work
was that there was too little of the history it was supposed to be i.e.
post-1955 AA. That's the main reason that the edited manuscript is titled
"Collected Observations of AA." There was nothing comprehensive about it,
just a few tidbits of detail that only a few AA historians could sink their
teeth into. And, as an AA Historian, I found the writing as misleading.

The sets of authors (three?) tried, and short of a breach of contract
lawsuit against the General Service Board, all were paid for their
professional services.

Can we go back to Bill W. and "AA Comes Of Age" as the Fellowship's initial
history effort? Bill assembled the chapters and stories in that work like
the adventure he had witnessed during our formative years. And longtime AAs
received it that way, ensuring future AA generations that it had great
relevance and provenance! AACA has many contributors and tells the
'adventure' of a developed unity out of many divergent positions of how: how
AA grew, how AAs served, how AA may have fallen short, and most importantly
how AA survived.

Perhaps the next Fellowship-wide history draft could keep this perspective
in sight.

AACA is a very tough 'act' to follow---with the Conference disapproval and
failure of the two historybook efforts through the 1990s, a general
consensus began to develop, and seemed to replace the
"AA-as-a-whole-history" need (rather a 'want' no?) with a sense that local
(anywhere from an AA District to an AA Area to an AA Region) histories could
be completed.

In late 1993, after the debacle of this second history book effort failed
the approval of the Conference, discussion here in Northern Illinois was as
simple as this: if the Conference can't get a history completed and pass
muster, we can! Not fully cognizant of the implications, I volunteered to
attempt to write it. My service at that time was two years of District
Archives development (from scratch!), two years as a District Secretary, and
eight years of sobriety with a love and appreciation of AA's heritage. The
Assembly approved my proposal and I went to work at it. Please note that
this sharing is not so much about me but can serve as an example of one AA's
effort to preserve our message for future AAs. As written in the Preface, it
turns out that the joy is in the search and discovery.

The AA Archives assisted with answering any question I had, and the
Archivist at the time, Frank M., provided me actual letters and relatively
confidential information with my own commitment to protect its anonymity.
The Chicago Archives (at the time, scattered around the Area Office)was also
a huge resource. The Chicago Historical Society had very relevant Illinois
AA items, too, previously contributed from a 1989 Chicago Archives
Committee.

A close friend and past Area 20 (n. Illinois) Delegate and past Area
Archives Committee Chair, Hank G., turned out to be my "Pathfinder" on the
research.

My own Area's Archives had its fist extensive sorting and cataloguing
completed as a result. Two years later, sufficiently humbled that my Area
had something relevant and accurate, I enlisted an Ad Hoc committee of ten
longtimers and trusted servants to review it---think of a friendly Grand
Jury investigation that could call any detail into question for me to prove
as cross-referenced and double-checked.

The Area Assembly approved the proposal to print it in June 1996, and 1500
historybooks were distributed and/or purchased until it was considered as
out-of-print. By 2002, it was posted on the Area website as a massive Adobe
Acrobat Reader document. By 2001, further research brought my proposal to
update the book into a Second Issue, and my Assembly approved the venture.
In 2003, the same review process took place as had happened in 1996, and
this time the entire work was re-written with the reviewing help of a close
AA friend with a 'magna cum laude' B.A. degree in English literature. The
Second Issue's Assembly-approved printing was scaled down to 300 books that
were distributed and/or purchased within two years...But, as planned, it was
intended to be posted on the Area website, where it remains "in print" today
(as an even larger PDF file). Go to www.aa-nia.org and search for it!

Conference approval is a lengthy and complicated process that proves the
description of AA's prudent speed of "Slow, or Stopped."

Thankfully my Area's speed was "slow" about publishing its own history.

I believe that if a post-1955 AA history is written with the caliber and
details of a "Not-God" or "AA Comes Of Age" effort, it would still have a
rough time getting through our Conference's committee system. But I could be
wrong.

Meanwhile, many efforts continue with significant results for our AA history
and most of those efforts and publishing have been discussed and announced
here in this egroup. There are many successes that parallel what happened
in Northern Illinois Area here!

As a simple "member" of my Area Archives Committee today, thanks for
hearing my view.

Rick, Illinois

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 8:03 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: AA history from 1955 to the present

$384,000 was expended on a book which was
never completed or allowed to be completed.
The Trustees Literature Committee then
"agreed that it not be made available in the
Archives or anywhere else since it runs the
risk of becoming `unofficial' A.A.literature
and could involve legal problems."
Questions:
1. Have other pieces of literature, involving
over a quarter of a million dollars in
expenditures, been banned from the archives
and kept secret?
2. Did the Trustees Literature Committee
specifically cite the actual"legal problems"
it was concerned about? What were they?
<SNIP>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 4965. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Opening Day No-Hitter April 16
1940
From: Cindy Miller . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/12/2008 12:29:00 PM

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On Apr 11, 2008, at 5:27 PM, jlobdell54 wrote:

> I believe Bob Feller may still be
> alive at 89 or so -- I don't know if anyone
> has approached him for his recollections of
> Rollie, or if indeed they exist already.

- - - -

From: Cindy Miller <cm53@earthlink.net>
(cm53 at earthlink.net)

He is still alive--indeed, I heard him
just a few weeks ago on a sports radio
show--lamenting the new era of pitch counts,
the DH, set-up pitchers and closers, and
other MLB innovations!

-cm

`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>

- - - -

From: "Chris Budnick" <cbudnick@nc.rr.com>
(cbudnick at nc.rr.com)

There is a baseball signed by the 1948 World
Series Champion Cleveland Indians at Brown
University in the Robert H. Smith collection.
The ball is signed by the entire team, incl.
Rollie Hemsley. I have pictures if anyone is
interested.

Chris

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++++Message 4966. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA history from 1955 to the
present
From: James Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/13/2008 4:46:00 PM

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Rick wrote:

> Can we go back to Bill W. and "AA Comes Of
> Age" as the Fellowship's initial history
> effort? Bill assembled the chapters and
> stories in that work like the adventure he
> had witnessed during our formative years.

If you have a set of tapes from the Conference
in St. Louis in 1955, it is easy to note that
most of the text is transscribed from the tapes.

Jim

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++++Message 4967. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Early AA member Mary Martto
From: junebug0619@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/14/2008 12:11:00 AM

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Could the signature be "Marty Mann" instead of
"Mary Martto"?

- - - -

In a message dated 4/13/2008 3:26:55 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
gmaxham@yahoo.com writes:

We have a first edition first printing Big
Book with all kinds of interesting signatures
from Stepping Stones.

The woman's name that it belonged to is
Mary Martto. Does anyone know who this woman
is? We were told she is the second or third
woman in AA.

Area 28 archivist Gordon Maxham

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++++Message 4968. . . . . . . . . . . . Reader''s Digest
From: Carol W . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/13/2008 7:23:00 PM

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Hello,

I was wondering how many stories about AA
figures were printed in the Reader's Digest
Condensed Books? Whose stories were printed?

I know of only 2 stories: "My name is Bill W."
& "Bill W" by Robert Thomsen.

I am interested in finding more books in the
Reader's Digest series, including AA people
in addition to Bill W.

Thank you,
Carol W

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++++Message 4969. . . . . . . . . . . . Historical Perspective on the ICYPAA
conference
From: dijmo . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/14/2008 10:55:00 PM

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The 50th ICYPAA is being held July 3-6, 2008
in Oklahoma City: http://www.50thicypaa.org

We have been working with the program commit-
tee to get a slot on the program for a panel
meeting on Saturday afternoon. The likely
title for this panel is "Historical Perspective
on the ICYPAA conference" (from people that
hosted ICYPAA over the decades).

We would like to have three prearranged
panelists, one that was involved in hosting
an ICYPAA during the 60's, one that was
involved in hosting an ICYPAA during the
70's and one from the 80's.

After each of these folks have shared a little
bit about what it was like and what it meant
for their sobriety, we will open it up for
sharing from the floor.

For those of you who may know of Bill D., he
has agreed to be the Saturday night speaker.
Bill was involved in organizing the first
ICYPAA and the main speaker at the second!
If that's not enough, he first came to AA at
age 19, in New York and attended meetings with
Bill W. and many other early AAs.

Lizzie Schrock
Member 34th ICYPAA Host Committee
lizzieschrock@hotmail.com
530/906/9854

or

Melanie Elliott
Member 34th ICYPAA Host Committee
melhermann@aol.com
323/356/0432

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++++Message 4970. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Origin of the term "Character
Defect"
From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/15/2008 9:28:00 AM

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--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,
"jeffyour" <jyour@...> wrote:
>
> I've run a cursory search of the archives
> of this discussion board and found nothing
> that addresses the historical origin of the
> term "Character Defects".

- - - -

The opening paragraph from a 1928 book, The
Psychology of Character, With a Survey of
Temperment, A.A. Roback, author:

"There is one department of psychology in
which no progress has been made for about two
thousand years, in spite of the fact that it
was perhaps the first topic to attract
attention . . . .the interlocked subject
character and temperament which, though
forming the core of any study of human nature,
have continued to remain in the speculative
stage, while other psychological material was
being subjected to experimental scrutiny. Only
recently have these siblings been examined
anew under the more comprehensive head of
personality. . ."

"Defects of character" was an expression used
commonly in the late 19th-early 20th centuries.
I don't think you will be able to find a
specific source for Wilson's use of it. The
phrase "defects of character" as used then
might be similar to what psychologists today
would call "personality disorders" if they
are present in a severe form. In traditional
psychological theory these are felt to be
relatively immutable once childhood has
passed.

Where James comes into it, is that he believed
strongly in the changeability of character
through overwhelming transformational experi-
ences of a mystical type. The Oxford Groupers
adopted the Jamesian (pragmatic) view and
morphed it with a brand of "second blessing"
theology which was by then a little dated.
They brushed it off and polished it up with
some dynamic-psychology theory so it would
have a wider appeal.

Cora

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++++Message 4971. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Milestones of Alcoholics
Anonymous by Bill
From: aalogsdon@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/13/2008 9:29:00 PM

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I believe that they have already been put on
CDs. I have a set of three of these red
recordings and have them loaned out to a taper.

I think they are recordings of Bill W made in
1947. Can do follow-up if necessary.

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++++Message 4972. . . . . . . . . . . . Stepping Stones Annual Picnic
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/18/2008 8:58:00 PM

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From: "Stepping Stones" <info@steppingstones.org>
(info at steppingstones.org)

Dear Friend of Stepping Stones -

Spring has definitely come to Stepping Stones,
the historic home of Bill and Lois Wilson in
Bedford, New York. The daffodils and tulips
are in bloom, the annual picnic is soon upon
us and visitors are waking up from a long
winter's nap and stopping by for guided tours
daily.

Spring brings important updates for the
Stepping Stones family - people like you.

The 56th Annual Picnic is Saturday,
June 7, 2008, at noon. It's only a one-hour
train ride from New York City, so please
be sure to join us and help spread the
word! For a flyer or more information,
please visit the new and improved website
at www.steppingstones.org

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++++Message 4973. . . . . . . . . . . . A.A. History Weekend, East Dorset
VT, 8/22-24/08
From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/19/2008 8:08:00 AM

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A.A. History Weekend - The Stories
and Pictures of How A.A. Began

with Mitchell K., Bill McN., & Barefoot Bill

August 22-24, 2008

at the Wilson House (where Bill Wilson, AA
co-founder, was born)

378 Village Street
East Dorset, VT 05253

To register for the weekend & reserve a room,
please call the Wilson House at 802/362/5524.
____________________

Mitchell K. is author of the book about his
sponsor called "How It Worked: The Story of
Clarence Snyder & the Early Days of A.A. in
Cleveland, Ohio." He has also collaborated
with several other authors on books relating
to AA history.

Bill McN. will be performing live his popular
plays titled "Moments - An Evening With Bill
W." and "Scapedream - Dr. Bob...Pure & Simple".

A video performance of his Lois W. play will
also be shown (she was Bill W.'s wife and
co-founder of Al-Anon).

Barefoot Bill will be doing a three-hour talk
and picture show called "An AA History Present-
ation with 250 Pictures of Early AA".
____________________

SCHEDULE:

Friday night 8/22/08 (after the regularly
scheduled AA meeting) - Lois Wilson one-woman
play video

Saturday morning 8/23/08 9:00 to 10:20am -
Bill McN. performing live his Dr. Bob one-man
play

Saturday morning 8/23/08 10:40 to 12noon -
Mitchell K. talk/presentation

Saturday afternoon 8/23/08 1:00 to 4:00pm
(w/break) - Barefoot Bill's AA History Present-
ation with 250 Pictures of Early AA

Saturday night 8/23/08 (after the regularly
scheduled AA meeting) - Clarence Snyder video
talk

Sunday morning 8/24/08 9:00 to 10:20am -
Mitchell K. talk/presentation

Sunday morning 8/24/08 10:40 to 12noon -
Bill McN. performing live his Bill Wilson
one-man play

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++++Message 4974. . . . . . . . . . . . Ball in Dr Bob Collection at Brown
From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/16/2008 5:38:00 PM

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I don't have a picture of the ball, but my
impression had been that it was from 1940,
when Rollie, recently sober through AA, was a
member of the Cleveland Indians and caught
Bob Feller's no-hitter, and not from 1948,
when Rollie had retired (and in any case so
far as I know his last year with the Indians
was 1941). Not to say he couldn't have gotten
and signed a 1948 team ball for Dr. Bob (I
know he managed in AAA ball at Columbus in
1950, so he could have been in Ohio -- and
perhaps he coached for Cleveland in 1948,
though I don't remember him there), but in
any case I'm curious. Key signatures to show
1948 would probably be Joe Gordon and Satchel
Paige.

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++++Message 4975. . . . . . . . . . . . bills story
From: johnhartie . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/17/2008 4:18:00 AM

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In "Bill's Story" when the stockmarket crashed
the ticker said xyz-32. Is that a minus sign
before the 32?

- - - -

From the moderator: (Big Book p. 4) the stock
whose symbol on the stock ticker was XYZ-32,
was Penick & Ford, which tumbled from 52 to 32
in a single day.

But what can our experts on the stock market
tell us? Was this a minus sign in front of
the number 32?

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++++Message 4976. . . . . . . . . . . . Early proposed BB cover
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/20/2008 7:17:00 PM

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From: "Dirk Dierking" wsmaugham21@yahoo.com
(wsmaugham21 at yahoo.com)

At http://hindsfoot.org/private.html you
can see a picture which I found, showing what
I have been told is an early proposed cover
design for the Big Book.

What can you tell me about who designed
this particular cover, and that person's
story and life?

Also about whoever designed the cover that
ended up being used for the first edition
of the Big Book, and the whole story of how
the first cover was chosen?

Peace,

Dirk

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++++Message 4977. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Early proposed BB cover
From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/20/2008 8:29:00 PM

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Responses from Mitchell K., Rick Tomkins, and
Arthur Sheehan

- - - -

From: "Mitchell K." <mitchell_k_archivist@yahoo.com>
(mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com)

I'm sure there will be lots of responses, but...

The cover was designed by Ray Campbell. Ray was an
early NY member and an artist who lived in Carmel (or
Lake Carmel), NY (Putnam County) and his story AN
ARTIST'S CONCEPT appeared in the First Edition of the
Big Book. Ray also was the person who designed the
so-called "Circus" Dust Jacket which was chosen. The
original cover is located at the archives of the
Stepping Stones Foundation, former home of Bill and
Lois in the Bedford Hills (Westchester County) NY
area. Carmel, NY is not that far from Stepping Stones.

This Ray Campbell is not the same as the artist of the
same name born in 1956 in the UK.

- - - -

From: "ricktompkins" <ricktompkins@comcast.net>
(ricktompkins at comcast.net)

This is the blue "Their Pathway To A Cure"
cover. The same artist designed the yellow,
red, and white cover that was used on all
First Edition dust jackets and one that most
AAs can easily recognize.

The early AAs selected the second and called
it the 'circus' dust cover because of its
bright color arrangement.

And, the illustrator's story "An Artist's
Concept" was printed in First Editions, now
in the AAWS Experience, Strength, and Hope.

Notably, the author made the first reference
to Spencer's "contempt prior to investigation"
quote (misquoted and/or unattributed to
Herbert Spencer) that later was added to the
Big Book's "Spiritual Experience" appendix.

Enjoy the draft that was not selected; perhaps
it was too frighteningly compelling. The
second, selected cover had no images, just
the uncomplicated script lettering. To me,
both were very "art deco."

Rick, Illinois

- - - -

From: "Arthur Sheehan" <ArtSheehan@msn.com>
(ArtSheehan at msn.com)

Hi Dirk

The brightly colored yellow and red dust
jacket usually associated with the first
edition Big Book is sometimes called the
"circus color" dust jacket. It was designed
by Ray C (Campbel) whose 1st edition Big Book
story is "An Artist's Concept."

Ray also designed an art deco style dust
jacket that was never used. It's the dust
jacket you are inquiring about. I believe a
painting of it is on display at Steppingstones
but I can't verify this as fact.

As an item of AA trivial pursuit, Ray C began
his story with a quotation he attributed to
Herbert Spencer which said: "There is a
principle which is a bar against all informa-
tion, which is proof against all arguments
and which cannot fail to keep a man in ever-
lasting ignorance - that principle is contempt
prior to investigation."

Ray's story was not included in the 2nd edition
Big Book. However, the quotation and attribution
were added to Appendix II "Spiritual Experience"
when the 2nd edition Big Book was published in
1955. It has since been found out that the
quotation should be attributed to an English
clergyman, author and college lecturer by the
name of William Paley who lived from 1743 to
1805.

Cheers
Arthur

- - - -

Original message from: "Dirk Dierking"
<wsmaugham21@yahoo.com>
wsmaugham21 at yahoo.com)
>
> At http://hindsfoot.org/private.html you
> can see a picture which I found, showing what
> I have been told is an early proposed cover
> design for the Big Book.
>
> What can you tell me about who designed
> this particular cover, and that person's
> story and life?
>
> Also about whoever designed the cover that
> ended up being used for the first edition
> of the Big Book, and the whole story of how
> the first cover was chosen?
>
> Peace,
>
> Dirk

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++++Message 4978. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Big Book cover and Ray Campbell
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/23/2008 1:53:00 PM

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Here is Nancy Olson's short bio of Ray Campbell,
who designed the Big Book dust jackets we have
been discussing:

http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/Authors.htm

An Artist's Concept -- Ray Campbell
New York City
p. 380 in 1st edition

Ray joined the fellowship in February 1938.

He began his story by quoting Herbert Spencer:
"There is a principle which is a bar against
all information, which is proof against all
arguments and which can not fail to keep a man
in everlasting ignorance-that principle is
contempt prior to investigation."

He said that the quotation is descriptive of
the mental attitudes of many alcoholics when
the subject of religion, as a cure, is first
brought to their attention. "It is only when
a man has tried everything else, when in utter
desperation and terrific need he turns to
something bigger than himself, that he gets
a glimpse of the way out. It is then that
contempt is replaced by hope, and hope by
fulfillment."

Ray chose to write of his search for spiritual
help rather than "a description of the neurotic
drinking that made the search necessary."

After investigating his alcoholic problem from
every angle, medicine, psychology, psychiatry,
and psychoanalysis, he began "flirting" with
religion as a possible way out. He had been
approaching God intellectually. That only
added to his desperation, but a seed had been
planted.

Finally he met a man, probably Bill Wilson,
who had for five years "devoted a great deal
of time and energy to helping alcoholics."
The man told him little he didn't already know,
"but what he did have to say was bereft of all
fancy spiritual phraseology -- it was simple
Christianity imparted with Divine Power."

The next day he met over twenty men who "had
achieved a mental rebirth from alcoholism."

He liked them because the were ordinary men
who were not pious nor "holier than thous."

He notes that these men were but instruments.
"Of themselves they were nothing."

He must have been an intellectual type. He not
only quotes Spencer, but Thoreau: "Most men
lead lives of quiet desperation."

It was Ray, a recognized artist, who was asked
to design the dust jacket for the 1st edition
of the Big Book. He submitted various designs
for consideration including one that was blue
and in an Art Deco style. The one chosen was
red, and yellow, with a little black, and a
little white. The words Alcoholics Anonymous
were printed across the top in large white
script. It became known as the circus jacket
because of its loud circus colors. The unused
blue jacket is today in the Archives at the
Stepping Stones Foundation.

His story was not included in the Second
Edition of the Big Book but the Spencer quote
was placed in the back of the book in
Appendix II, "Spiritual Experience."

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++++Message 4979. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Ball in Dr Bob Collection at
Brown
From: Chris Budnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/20/2008 8:43:00 PM

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I visited the collection at Brown University
in May 2007. The ball that is there is from
the 1948 World Series Champion, Cleveland
Indians. I can email pictures I took while
there. I have been through the entire
collection at Brown between my trip in May
2007 and later in September.

Chris

<cbudnick@nc.rr.com>
(cbudnick at nc.rr.com)

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++++Message 4980. . . . . . . . . . . . Signed Indians Baseball at Brown
From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/20/2008 10:35:00 PM

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Chris very kindly sent me three views of the
baseball signed by Rollie Hemsley and identi-
fied as a 1948 World Series ball.

The signatures of Joe Dobson (CLE 1939-40
only), Johnny Allen (CLE 1936-40 only), Floyd
Stromme (1939 only), Bruce Campbell (CLE
1935-39 only), and others, identify the ball
as either late 1939 or (much less likely
because Campbell was traded to DET by
Opening Day 1940) very early (Opening
Day) 1940.

In any case, despite the label, it's not
from 1948. Most likely 1939 when Feller was
24-9 with 296 SO and Hemsley batted .263.

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++++Message 4981. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Ball in Dr Bob Collection at
Brown
From: greatcir . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/20/2008 11:11:00 PM

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In October, 2005 I visited Brown University
and read through a number of boxes related to
Dr. Bob and Clarence Snyder. Very few of the
boxes had been cataloged and a few of them
had plain grocery plastic bags full of loose
correspondence, post cards, Works Publishing
auditor reports, etc.

A box, labled Box 2, had Dr. Bob's wallet with
his Social Security card (1937) in it, a small
pouch of old medical instruments, a folder
on how form a group (1950), and a baseball
related to Helmsley per the box description.

I have a date of 1948 next to the baseball
note in my file but have no recollection of
where this date came from nor do I remember
examining the baseball for any autographs.
I was not permitted to take any photographs.

A box that was labled Box 1 held an old coffee
pot. It was reported to be from Dr' Bob's house
and was refered to as the "Holy Grail" of the
AA materials in the Brown collection in their
description of the collection in 2005.

I do recall the archives person from Brown not
being very excited about my examination of any
of these materials. They were much more relaxed
about me simply reading the text of materials
in the other boxes.

In previous months I had spent time at Stepping
Stones reviewing primarily the last 90 days of
Bill's life. I was hoping to see something
about the waning period of Dr. Bob's days at
Brown but found nothing in the boxes I reviewed.

I did not see all of the "boxes" and it was
hit or miss on which box I would ask to see
the mext day as it took 24 hours to get a box.

There was a lot of correspondence on royalties
(Bill, Bob, Sue Windows, Barry Leach, etc.) as
well as many disrelated text items.

One day at a time,

Pete K.

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++++Message 4982. . . . . . . . . . . . AA in Latin America
From: amielmelnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/22/2008 8:40:00 AM

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Hello everyone,

I'm doing research on the history of AA in
Latin America (Mexico, Central and South
America) - how the first groups were started,
how they spread, any secessions or diffi-
culties starting groups (I've been reading
what has been posted here about the Mexico
separation).

I wonder if any of you have information about
other parts of the history of AA in Latin
America, or suggestions for good places to
look? I realize this is a bit broader than
the kinds of questions you usually get, but
I'm just a beginner!

Thanks, and all best,

Amiel

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++++Message 4983. . . . . . . . . . . . Hugh Reilly, Easy Does It: The Story
of Mac
From: giftpurple . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/22/2008 8:38:00 AM

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What is the history behind the book "Easy
Does It: Story of Mac" by Hugh Reilly?

- - - -

From the moderator:

"Easy Does It" by Hugh Reilly was a 1950s
book about an alcoholic man.

The basic bibliographic information is:

Easy does it, the story of Mac. For the
millions who as yet do not know.
by Hugh Reilly, pseud.
Type: Book; English
Publisher: New York, Kenedy [1950]
OCLC: 2662794
Related Subjects: Alcoholics Anonymous.

There is a review written by Robert E. L.
Faris. See the book review "Easy Does It:
The Story of Mac. by Hugh Reilly" in the
American Journal of Sociology, Vol. 56,
No. 3 (Nov., 1950), p. 300. (Published by
the University of Chicago Press)

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++++Message 4984. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill''s story and XYZ-32 on
stock ticker
From: junebug0619@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/20/2008 11:01:00 PM

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Responses from junebug, John Lee, and Mike Barns

- - - -

From: junebug0619@aol.com
(junebug0619 at aol.com)

If a person is following the action of any one
company, he would have to know the stock symbol
of that company to read its action on the
ticker tape. Let us take as an example the
Coca-Cola Company with the symbol KO. The
tape would show:

KO - the ticker symbol of the company

9M - the amount of shares traded, in this
case M stands for million, as K would stand
for a thousand and B for a billion

@ - at 60.79 - the last bid price in that day
per share of stock and up or down arrow - to
show the direction of change

0.83 - the amount of change

According to the above example in the Big Book,
the stock market was 52 dropping 32 points.

- - - -

From: John Lee <johnlawlee@yahoo.com>
(johnlawlee at yahoo.com)

A stock price can never be below zero. Unlike
partners, stockholders cannot be assessed when
a company has a negative value.
john lee
Pittsburgh

- - - -

From: Mike Barns <mikeb384@verizon.net>
(mikeb384 at verizon.net)

I am no expert on the stock market, but stock
prices are not quoted in negative values; they
are removed from the board. A single day drop
from 52 to 32 is calamitous indeed, and could
be considered ruinous for most.

Mike B.

- - - -

Original message from "johnhartie"
<johnhartie@yahoo.com> (johnhartie at yahoo.com)

In "Bill's Story" when the stockmarket crashed
the ticker said XYZ-32. Is that a minus sign
before the 32?

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++++Message 4985. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Hugh Reilly, Easy Does It: The
Story of Mac
From: James Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/23/2008 4:21:00 PM

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There is a persistent rumour that the book
was written by Bill Wilson in order to raise
monies for the retirement of Dr. Silkworth.

I don't know if a computer analysis of the
writing styles was ever done.

Jim

**************************************

Original Message: 4983
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/4983
From: "giftpurple" <Jifgift@aol.com>
(Jifgift at aol.com)

What is the history behind the book "Easy
Does It: Story of Mac" by Hugh Reilly?

- - - -

From the moderator:

"Easy Does It" by Hugh Reilly was a 1950s
book about an alcoholic man.

The basic bibliographic information is:

Easy does it, the story of Mac. For the
millions who as yet do not know.
by Hugh Reilly, pseud.
Type: Book; English
Publisher: New York, Kenedy [1950]
OCLC: 2662794
Related Subjects: Alcoholics Anonymous.

There is a review written by Robert E. L.
Faris. See the book review "Easy Does It:
The Story of Mac. by Hugh Reilly" in the
American Journal of Sociology, Vol. 56,
No. 3 (Nov., 1950), p. 300. (Published by
the University of Chicago Press)

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++++Message 4986. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Hugh Reilly, Easy Does It: The
Story of Mac
From: Chris Budnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/24/2008 1:15:00 AM

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In Dale Mitchell's biography, Silkworth -
The Little Doctor Who Loved Drunks, Mitchell
suggests that Easy Does It was written by
Silkworth under the pseudonym Hugh Reilly.
I don't have the book in front of me so I
can't reference the pages where he discusses
this. After reading the Silkworth bio, it
prompted me to track down a copy of Easy Does
It.

Chris

**************************************

Original Message: 4983
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/4983
From: "giftpurple" <Jifgift@aol.com>
(Jifgift at aol.com)

What is the history behind the book "Easy
Does It: Story of Mac" by Hugh Reilly?

- - - -

From the moderator:

"Easy Does It" by Hugh Reilly was a 1950s
book about an alcoholic man.

The basic bibliographic information is:

Easy does it, the story of Mac. For the
millions who as yet do not know.
by Hugh Reilly, pseud.
Type: Book; English
Publisher: New York, Kenedy [1950]
OCLC: 2662794
Related Subjects: Alcoholics Anonymous.

There is a review written by Robert E. L.
Faris. See the book review "Easy Does It:
The Story of Mac. by Hugh Reilly" in the
American Journal of Sociology, Vol. 56,
No. 3 (Nov., 1950), p. 300. (Published by
the University of Chicago Press)

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++++Message 4987. . . . . . . . . . . . AA member No. 4
From: Mark . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/24/2008 11:03:00 AM

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Good Morning/Afternoon all!

Does anyone know who the person is that is
referenced in the BB as the fourth member?

Thanks

- - - -

From the moderator:

I am assuming that you are referring to the
"devil-may-care young fellow" who appears
on page 158 in the Big Book (3rd/4th edit.).

The "devil-may-care young fellow" was 30-
year-old Ernie Galbraith of Akron, a young
man with problems [who must be distinguished
from the other Ernie G. in the early Ohio AA
group, who was Ernie Gerig of Toledo, one of
the truly great AA good old timers.]

Ernie Galbraith, who had trouble with drinking
for the rest of his life, nevertheless had
his story, "The Seven Month Slip," in the
first edition of the Big Book. In 1941 Dr.
Bob's daughter Sue married Ernie Galbraith
but they were later divorced.

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++++Message 4988. . . . . . . . . . . . Who edited three of the 1st edition
stories?
From: johnhartie . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/25/2008 2:38:00 PM

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In the preface (4th edition, bottom of page xi)
it says that in the second edition,

- - - -

<<"Bill's Story," "Doctor Bob's Nightmare,"
and one other personal history from the first
edition were retained intact;

three were edited and one of these was retitled;

new versions of two stories were written, with
new titles>>

- - - -

My question is, who edited those three stories?

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++++Message 4989. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA in Latin America
From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/24/2008 5:32:00 PM

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Several years back there was a research
symposium held at Brown University with some
AA members/historians and friends of AA
attending. Since my divorce and move I can't
find anything in my apartment and also due
to the fact that my memory is vanishing I
can't remember the Jesuit sociologist who was
in attendance who had immersed himself in the
AA culture in Mexico for a long-term research
study. Maybe Ernie Kurtz might have the
paperwork from that symposium and thus, the
contact info.

The nice thing about losing my memory is
that I will always be able to discover new
places and meet new people and make new
friends.

--- amielmelnick <amiel@whatfelt.org> wrote:

> Hello everyone,
>
> I'm doing research on the history of AA in
> Latin America (Mexico, Central and South
> America) - how the first groups were started,
> how they spread, any secessions or diffi-
> culties starting groups (I've been reading
> what has been posted here about the Mexico
> separation).
>
> I wonder if any of you have information about
> other parts of the history of AA in Latin
> America, or suggestions for good places to
> look? I realize this is a bit broader than
> the kinds of questions you usually get, but
> I'm just a beginner!
>
> Thanks, and all best,
>
> Amiel
>
>
>

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++++Message 4990. . . . . . . . . . . . "the man in the bed"
From: Trysh Travis . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/27/2008 6:14:00 PM

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I have become interested in the various
representations of "the man in the bed," and
am eager to add to the "gallery" I am making
up. I have collected the photos from the
original Jack Alexander article in the
Saturday Evening Post, as well as the
painting [?] on Barefoot Bill's website

http://www.barefootsworld.net/aabilld-aa3.html

and the stained glass window at the Akron
Archives

http://www.akronaa.org/Archives/man_on_the_bed.html

I am curious to know whether people on this
list know of other visual representations of
the man in the bed that I might add to my
archive. They don't have to be famous like
these are!

Thanks, Trysh Travis

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++++Message 4991. . . . . . . . . . . . As Bill Sees It: changed quotations
From: George Ewing . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/28/2008 8:56:00 PM

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I've perused As Bill Sees Its for years but
only recently noticed that many of the quotes
from both the Big Book and Twelve Steps and
Twelve Traditions are actually NOT quotes,
but paraphrases.

This disturbs me for a number of reasons,
and since I noticed it I've left ASBI on
the shelf.

Does anyone know a) who decided to paraphrase
the source material, b) whether the "letters"
and Grapevine article snippets are also
paraphrased?

Thanks in advance.

George

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++++Message 4992. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: AA member No. 4
From: Chris Budnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/28/2008 11:28:00 PM

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An added tragedy for Sue and Ernie occurred
a few years after their divorce when their
daughter Bonna committed suicide after taking
the life of her 6-year-old daughter Sandy on
June 11, 1969. Ernie died 2 years later to
the day. Also very tragic, Smitty and Betty
had a son who committed suicide.

Chris

- - - -

Original message:

Good Morning/Afternoon all!

Does anyone know who the person is that is
referenced in the BB as the fourth member?

Thanks

- - - -

From the moderator:

I am assuming that you are referring to the
"devil-may-care young fellow" who appears
on page 158 in the Big Book (3rd/4th edit.).

The "devil-may-care young fellow" was 30-
year-old Ernie Galbraith of Akron, a young
man with problems [who must be distinguished
from the other Ernie G. in the early Ohio AA
group, who was Ernie Gerig of Toledo, one of
the truly great AA good old timers.]

Ernie Galbraith, who had trouble with drinking
for the rest of his life, nevertheless had
his story, "The Seven Month Slip," in the
first edition of the Big Book. In 1941 Dr.
Bob's daughter Sue married Ernie Galbraith
but they were later divorced.

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++++Message 4993. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "the man in the bed"
From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/28/2008 11:03:00 PM

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I would be interested to know when and how
Bill Dotson's name became associated with
the painting?

It was not intended to represent him when it
was painted in 1955 by Robert M, a volunteer
illustrator for the Grapevine and appeared in
the December issue of that year titled "Came
to Believe." The setting is obviously not
in a hospital. The man on the bed is wearing
trousers and an undershirt. There is a bottle
of booze on the chest of drawers. The head
and foot of the bed are brass, not a hospital
bed. If the book one of the men has is
supposed to be a Big Book, it wasn't published
until almost four years later. One wonders
what book Bill and Dr. Bob would have used.

It is my understanding that the painting was
presented to Bill W by the artist in May of
1956, the following year. It was very popular
and the Grapevine provided reproductions of it.

When the book Came to Believe was published
in 1973, the name of the painting was changed
to The Man on the Bed to avoid confusion.

It appears at some point people started
believing the painting represented Bill Dotson
in Akron City Hospital in 1935. I wonder if
there is any hard evidence when that happened?

Tommy H

- - - -

Original message: Trysh Travis wrote

>I have become interested in the various
>representations of "the man in the bed," and
>am eager to add to the "gallery" I am making
>up. I have collected the photos from the
>original Jack Alexander article in the
>Saturday Evening Post, as well as the
>painting [?] on Barefoot Bill's website
>
>http://www.barefootsworld.net/aabilld-aa3.html
>
>and the stained glass window at the Akron
>Archives
>
>http://www.akronaa.org/Archives/man_on_the_bed.html
>
>I am curious to know whether people on this
>list know of other visual representations of
>the man in the bed that I might add to my
>archive. They don't have to be famous like
>these are!

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++++Message 4994. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "the man in the bed"
From: Arthur Sheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/28/2008 10:11:00 PM

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I don't see anything to add to your answer
Tommy. It's fairly common to hear members say
that the man on the bed represents Bill,
Dr Bob and Bill D.

What I do is to point out that: (1) the man on
the bed is wearing trousers, (2) there is a
carpet under the bed, (3) there is a bottle of
booze on the dresser and (4) the headboard
and footboard of the bed are brass. These
would not be found in a room in Akron City
Hospital in June 1935. Also, the man in the
foreground is holding a book - if the artist
intended it to be the Big Book, then that
wasn't written until 4 years later in 1939.

And then people still go on saying it's Bill,
Dr Bob and Bill D.

Cheers
Arthur

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++++Message 4995. . . . . . . . . . . . Historical list of all ICYPAA
conferences
From: Jocelyn . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/2/2008 2:22:00 PM

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~~~~Hey there ... Just joined the group.
Found you in my search for a simple list of
all the ICYPAAs, their years, cities and
themes. I'm the chair of the Chicago ICYPAA
bid committee for this year, and would like
to peruse this info. Does anyone have any
idea where I can locate such a list??

Look forward to seeing you in Oklahoma!

Jocelyn Geboy
Chair, Chicago ICYPAA Bid Committee

- - - -

From the moderator: for a general historical
account (although this doesn't give you your
detailed list) you might look at

http://www.barefootsworld.net/aaspecialgroups.html

if you haven't already done so.

- - - -

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "dijmo" <dijmo@...> wrote:
>
> The 50th ICYPAA is being held July 3-6, 2008
> in Oklahoma City: http://www.50thicypaa.org
>
> We have been working with the program commit-
> tee to get a slot on the program for a panel
> meeting on Saturday afternoon. The likely
> title for this panel is "Historical Perspective
> on the ICYPAA conference" (from people that
> hosted ICYPAA over the decades).
>
> We would like to have three prearranged
> panelists, one that was involved in hosting
> an ICYPAA during the 60's, one that was
> involved in hosting an ICYPAA during the
> 70's and one from the 80's.
>
> After each of these folks have shared a little
> bit about what it was like and what it meant
> for their sobriety, we will open it up for
> sharing from the floor.
>
> For those of you who may know of Bill D., he
> has agreed to be the Saturday night speaker.
> Bill was involved in organizing the first
> ICYPAA and the main speaker at the second!
> If that's not enough, he first came to AA at
> age 19, in New York and attended meetings with
> Bill W. and many other early AAs.
>
> Lizzie Schrock
> Member 34th ICYPAA Host Committee
> lizzieschrock@...
> 530/906/9854
>
> or
>
> Melanie Elliott
> Member 34th ICYPAA Host Committee
> melhermann@...
> 323/356/0432
>

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++++Message 4996. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA member No. 4 and Dr. Bob''s
daughter Sue
From: Cindy Miller . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/30/2008 6:39:00 PM

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Wonderful, positive note:

Sue married her old sweetheart, Ray Windows
in 1975 -- 38 years after she had originally
met him!

Source: "Children of the Healer" (story of Sue
and Smitty) - highly recommended.

-cm
`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>

On Apr 28, 2008, at 11:28 PM, Chris Budnick wrote:

> An added tragedy for Sue and Ernie occurred
> a few years after their divorce when their
> daughter Bonna committed suicide after taking
> the life of her 6-year-old daughter Sandy on
> June 11, 1969. Ernie died 2 years later to
> the day. Also very tragic, Smitty and Betty
> had a son who committed suicide.
>
> Chris
>
> - - - -
>
> Original message:
>
> Good Morning/Afternoon all!
>
> Does anyone know who the person is that is
> referenced in the BB as the fourth member?
>
> Thanks
>
> - - - -
>
> From the moderator:
>
> I am assuming that you are referring to the
> "devil-may-care young fellow" who appears
> on page 158 in the Big Book (3rd/4th edit.).
>
> The "devil-may-care young fellow" was 30-
> year-old Ernie Galbraith of Akron, a young
> man with problems [who must be distinguished
> from the other Ernie G. in the early Ohio AA
> group, who was Ernie Gerig of Toledo, one of
> the truly great AA good old timers.]
>
> Ernie Galbraith, who had trouble with drinking
> for the rest of his life, nevertheless had
> his story, "The Seven Month Slip," in the
> first edition of the Big Book. In 1941 Dr.
> Bob's daughter Sue married Ernie Galbraith
> but they were later divorced.
>
>
>

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++++Message 4997. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Hugh Reilly, Easy Does It: The
Story of Mac
From: Chris Budnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/30/2008 1:28:00 AM

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Below is the text from the Silkworth biography
by Dale Mitchell (p. 95 - 101) regarding
arguments for Silkworth writing Easy Does It.
As mentioned in the email from Jim, it does
indicate speculation about Bill Wilson having
authored the book. I had forgotten that point
from the Silkworth bio. It's a bit of a long
email.

- - - -

On May 26, 1950, a fictional account of an
alcoholic called Easy Does It: The Story of Mac
was published by P.]. Kenedy and Sons out of
New York City during Silkworth's last full
year at Knickerbocker Hospital. The author
used the pseudonym Hugh Reilly and, according
to the dustcover, "has resorted to a narrative
which but barely disguises his true experience."
Was this author, indeed, William Silkworth?
A number of facts lead to this very conclusion.

Easy Does It describes a treatment facility
and process that mirrors that of Knickerbocker
Hospital during the Silkworth management. It
outlines the program of Alcoholics Anonymous
to a degree of understanding that surpasses
that of most of the active members of the
fellowship. The Twelve Steps of Alcoholics
Anonymous and some of the then-unwritten
Traditions are explained to a level equal to
that of the Big Book. Easy Does It presents
facts, fictional characters that strongly
resemble important people within early M, and
medical descriptions unique to the Silkworth
treatment program. More important, the
alcoholic mind is dissected through the
conversations and thoughts of the main char-
acter, Mac.

Prior to Easy Does It, early AA was presented
in only a few publications, including the Big
Book of Alcoholics Anonymous and a few Bill
Wilson AA Grapevine articles. Some of the
information contained in Easy Does It cannot
be traced to any of these sources. The author
of this book must have lived within the inner
circles of the program and maintained firsthand
knowledge of specific Silkworth treatment
attitudes. Only one man could have known the
details outlined in Easy Does It - William
Silkworth himself.

The characters in the book spoke about the
exact same medical descriptions, analogies, and
quotations Silkworth used over the years in his
writings and speeches.

Silkworth's nurse, Teddy, is one of the fictional
characters in the book. The character matches
Teddy in vivid physical detail and personality.
The personality description even corresponds to
how Teddy described herself in the 1952 article
"I'm a Nurse in an Alcoholic Ward." Silkworth
himself could not have been better described in
physical detail and personality had his own wife
written the book. His glowing white hair, his
deep blue eyes, even the way he dressed are the
attributes of one of the characters.

The author held an uncanny knowledge of
alcoholism, the Silkworth writings, the allergy
theory, and the program specifics of Alcoholics
Anonymous. The book uses many phrases that
were coined by Silkworth and rarely used by
others. The book, which was well received,
focuses more on the physical and medical
presentation of alcoholism than the spiritual
requirements of recovery, yet the spiritual
components of recovery are also plainly
detailed. Although Silkworth's conversion
beliefs are left for secondary conversations
between the two main characters, conversion
indeed occurs in every case of recovery
presented. In accordance with the Silkworth
legacy, it is obvious the book lays the ground
for a firm base of medical understanding. A
presentation of Higher Power and references to
God are well placed within the book after the
medical descriptions. Had the book been written
with a purely AA focus, this might not have
occurred.

The only reasonable argument against Silkworth
authoring the book is that he was an extremely
private and humble man. It is said that
Silkworth would never write a book about
himself that contained such glowing praise for
his work. Silkworth always maintained his
distance from fame despite the important role he
played in the birth of Alcoholics Anonymous.
Why would he suddenly step out of character
and write a book acknowledging the intelligence
and knowledge of alcoholic treatment by a doctor
who was obviously himself?

We do know that he did nonetheless step out of
character and pen a glowing recommendation of
himself. The foreword to Easy Does It was
written and signed by 'William Duncan
Silkworth, Physician-in-Charge of the AA Wing,
Knickerbocker Hospital, New York." In this
short introduction, Silkworth writes, "The author
has long been a close student of the alcoholic
problem. He certainly does not write as an
amateur."

The story describes one of the main characters,
Dr. Goodrich, as "a man of exceptional mental
and spiritual nature." If it can only be accepted
that the Dr. Goodrich character is indeed Dr.
Silkworth, then it must be accepted that Silk-
worth was still writing a foreword to a book
that praised his own work.

In his closing statement of the foreword
Silkworth states, "It deals with a complex
subject, discussed from many angles, often
challenging, always vigorous and original." At
the time, Silkworth was widely respected as an
expert on alcoholism and for his Towns and
Knickerbocker treatment models for programs
and facilities all over the world. This
foreword was no small recommendation.
Silkworth endorsed only three books in his
writing over his many years: Alcoholics Anon-
ymous, The Varieties of Religious Experience,
and Easy Does It. This places Easy Does It
quite high on the suggested reading list from
a man generally married to science and Alco-
holics Anonymous.

The only other reasonable argument against
Silkworth as the author is that Bill Wilson was
the author. Next to Silkworth, no one else had
the experience at Towns and Knickerbocker
Hospitals aside from Bill Wilson. No one could
have more precisely described Alcoholics
Anonymous. No one could have understood the
medical facts presented in the book regarding
the allergy theory, and certainly, no one knew
the true story of Bill's spiritual awakening.

How then do we challenge this theory? First,
Bill was known to be gregarious and very
public. He wrote many articles and was
involved in the writing of two books about his
life and the history of Alcoholics Anonymous.
Not once did he shy from public praise, quite
the contrary. Why would Bill Wilson suddenly
decide to write a book on Alcoholics Anony-
mous and the life of Dr. Silkworth in an
anonymous fashion?

Second, Wilson regretted not properly thanking
Silkworth more directly, and more frequently,
long after Silkworth had died. He would not
have made these comments had he actually
written a book that did indeed provide such
praise for Silkworth.

When first informed about the possibility that
Silkworth authored Easy Does It by a resource-
ful woman named Susan in New Jersey, I set
out to prove her wrong. My very first phone
call made me begin to question my preconcep-
tions.

When I called Adelaide Silkworth, the wife of
Silkworth's nephew William Silkworth, the first
time, we spoke briefly about the project and my
desire to find out all I could about the doctor.
Her first response was "Are you going to tell
them about Easy Does It?"

The family has long believed Silkworth to be the
author of Easy Does It - a rumor that does not
start haphazardly in a family history. Adelaide

matter-of-factly talked about how she and her
husband have always known and talked openly
about Dr. Silkworth being the true author, as
though she thought everyone already knew it to
be true. If Dr. Silkworth had lived three or four
generations earlier, the current family beliefs
might be difficult to accept as truth. The fact
that he lived at the same time and spent much
time with his namesake only strengthens the
family history.

A secondary source of proof is found in the
book review section of the New York Times in
1950. The prerelease book review for Easy
Does It names Dr. Silkworth as the author.
Minot C. Morgan wrote of this review in the
December 8, 1950, Princeton Alumni Weekly,
where he discussed Easy Does It and the author.

Members of this class may not be aware that
one of our classmates is an author named Hugh
Reilly, but the following book review in the
New York Times reveals his identity to be none
other than Dr. Bill Silkworth, who is still
devoting his energies and his professional skill
in a fine and much-needed humanitarian service:

"A fictionalized biography of an 'arrested alco-
holic' by an author who writes under the
pseudonym of Hugh Reilly will be published
on May 26 by P.J Kenedy. 'Easy Does It: The
Story of Mac' presents the life of a 'stew-bum,'

and the how and why of drinking and how the
alcoholic returned to normal life. Dr. William
Duncan Silkworth, Physician-in-charge of the
Alcoholics Anonymous Wing in Knickerbocker
Hospital, says in his foreword: The author
very properly integrates the moral therapy and
psychology of Alcoholics Anonymous as an
essential element in restoring the integrity of
the alcoholic."

Also the following excerpt from an obituary
of Dr. Silkworth was found as a third source:

A few months before his death his book, "Easy
Does It: The Story of Mac," was published by
P.J. Kenedy, the fictionalized biography of an
arrested alcoholic, telling the how and why of
drinking and explaining the means of recovery,
emphasizing the moral therapy and psychology
of Alcoholics Anonymous as an essential
element in restoring the integrity of the alco-
holic. In the publication of the book Billy
concealed his identity under the pseudonym of
Hugh Reilly, only the foreword being credited
to Dr.William Duncan Silkworth.

The New York Times had a resource at its finger-
tips since lost in the annals of AA history
- an original book review. Silkworth's New York
Times obituary was matter-of-fact about the
authorship of Easy Does It. Certainly, had
there been a man named Hugh Reilly, of whom
we have been unable to, find any record exists,
he would have come forward for his rightful
ownership of the book. In fact, the book itself
admits the name is a pseudonym.

The dedication page of Easy Does It can be
viewed as a path to the author's identity.
Certainly thousands may have the same initials
as those listed on the following dedication
page. Yet if we begin with those who had a
positive influence on Dr. Silkworth, we can
quickly find names that correspond with the
initials.

TO T. F. M.

WITH GRATITUDE FOR ALL THE THINGS

THAT WENT INTO HIS BEING

"THE FIRST TO UNDERSTAND"

AND TO

C.E.T

WHICH MIGHT ALSO STAND FOR
CHRIST EXEMPLIFIED FOR OUR
TIMES

Only one man in Silkworth's life distinguished
as "the first to understand" has the initials
T. F. M. And many referred to Thomas Francis
Marshall as the first to understand. He was
among the first to publicly preach a required
"conversion experience" for alcoholic recovery.
Long before William James and Joel Steele,
Marshall beckoned spiritual conversion as a
solution to alcoholism. One of the most ardent
supporters of conversion was William
Silkworth. Colonel Edward Towns (C.E.T.)
was known as a very compassionate and
Christian man. Towns and Silkworth became
very good friends through the work at Towns
Hospital. Many who knew Towns referred to
his strong Christian values, and one in parti-
cular, the Reverend Harry Emerson Fosdick,
called him "an example of Christianity."

The introduction to Easy Does It was written
with authority. Not with the authority of one
man's understanding of one alcoholic, but with
one man's experience of many alcoholics.
Again, the author praises several founding
members and supporters of Alcoholics
Anonymous, including "a great man named

Bill." The introduction reveals the identity of
'The Padre," one of the main characters of the
book, as a composite portrait "not unlike the
four immortal chaplains commemorated on a
three cent stamp issued by the United States
Government." The men, Reverend Samuel
Shoemaker, Father Ed Dowling, Reverend
Harry Emerson Fosdick, and Reverend Frank
Buchman, were all founding spiritual supporters
of Alcoholics Anonymous and well known to
Silkworth.

In his "introduction," the author attempts mainly
to offer Alcoholics Anonymous as "the only
program that takes cognizance of this whole
man in the treatment of the alcoholic and
motivates him in a way of life by which he
remains sober." Sound familiar? He also,
however, sheds light on his true identity. First,
the generic language itself is obviously a
barometer of Silkworth's prior writings. Almost
word for word, in the introduction and in the
story told in the book, we find Silkworth's
theoretical influence. Either the author knew the
content and sum of all Silkworth's writings and
speeches, or the author was Silkworth. Phrases
like "case history" were used to describe the
book's story. These are not words of a non-
medical man.

The closing paragraph may offer the most
poignant sentence in the entire book:

I want here to express my fervent appreciation
of the inestimable assistance which I received
consciously from the spoken and written
statements of the eminent doctor whose name
and words give luster to this book in the
Foreword. . . .Upon review of these facts, there
is truly only one option to consider: Dr.
Silkworth was the author of Easy Does It.
And through this fictional story, he offers the
world a glimpse of his private thoughts as
one of the founding fathers of AA.

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++++Message 4998. . . . . . . . . . . . Live Easy But Think First
From: tsirish1 . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/3/2008 4:53:00 PM

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Does anyone KNOW the origin of this practice?
Year? Group? Where I can find where the origin
is WRITTEN DOWN? Thanks.

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++++Message 4999. . . . . . . . . . . . Did Rollie Hemsley drink again?
From: Michael F. Margetis . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/4/2008 5:07:00 PM

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Hi,

I know a lot about Rollie's baseball career
and his anonymity break, and that he wound up
running a real estate office in Langley Park
Maryland (where I got sober)up until his death
and is buried nearby, but I don't know much
about his sobriety.

A couple of people I've talked to seem to
think he drank again, but I've never seen or
heard that from any authoritative source.
What can anyone tell me about that?

Thanks,
Mike M.

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++++Message 5000. . . . . . . . . . . . ICYPAA History
From: Andy . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/5/2008 12:18:00 PM

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Young People's Groups in Alcoholics Anonymous
began appearing around 1945 in Los Angeles,
Cleveland, and Philadelphia, and now they can
be found all across North America. In 1958, a
meeting of young AA's from across the U.S. and
Canada started what is now the International
Conference of Young People in Alcoholics Anon-
ymous (ICYPAA), and it has met on an annual
basis ever since. At the 1960 AA Convention,
Bill W. noted that the age of new members was
much lower than when he and Dr. Bob founded
AA 25 years earlier. In a letter to ICYPAA
dated June 15, 1969, Bill wrote "... in recent
years I have found nothing for greater inspira-
tion than the knowledge that A.A. of tomorrow
will be safe, and certainly magnificent, in
the keeping of you who are the younger genera-
tion of A.A. today."

ICYPAA was founded for the purpose of pro-
viding a setting for an annual celebration
of sobriety among young people in AA. Since
its inception, a growing group of people, who
at first would not consider themselves as
"young people," has become regular attendees.
The number of young people suffering from
alcoholism who turn to AA for help is growing,
and ICYPAA helps to carry AA's message of
recovery to alcoholics of all ages. This
meeting provides an opportunity for young AA's
from all over the world to come together and
share their experience, strength, and hope as
members of Alcoholics Anonymous. AA members
who attend an ICYPAA return home better pre-
pared to receive young people who come to AA
looking for a better way of life.

ICYPAA provides visible evidence that large
numbers of young people are achieving a
lasting and comfortable sobriety in Alco-
holics Anonymous. The three legacies of
AA -- Recovery, Unity, and Service -- are
the backbone of ICYPAA, just as they are
throughout AA. ICYPAA has a long history as
an established AA conference. It regularly
contributes to the AA General Service Office,
as well as to the Area Service Structure in
the local areas where it is held. ICYPAA and
its attendees are also committed to reaching
out to the newcomer, and to involvement in
every other facet of AA service. ICYPAA
participants can often be found serving at
the national, state, area, and group levels.
Newcomers are shown, by people their own age,
that using AA principles in their daily lives
and getting involved in AA service can have a
significant impact on a lasting and comfort-
able sobriety.

The 2008 ICYPAA will be held July 3-6 in
Oklahoma City, OK

Los Angeles, CA 2007 "Solid as Gibralter"

New Orleans, LA 2006 "Raise the Bottom"
postponed due to Katrina 2005

Orlando, Fl 2004 "we Stopped in Time"

Portland, OR 2003 "No-Middle-Of-The-Road
Solution"

Louisville, KY 2002 "A Design for Living"

Detroit, MI 2001 "Rebellion may be Fatal..."

Albuquerque, NM 2000 "Miracles Among Us"

Houston, TX 1999 "An Experience You Must
not Miss"

Washington, DC 1998 "The keys of the Kingdom"

Estes Park, CO 1997 "The High Road to a New
Freedom"

Anaheim, CA 1996 "We Absolutely Insist On
Enjoying Life"

Honolulu, HI 1995 "Willing to go to any
lengths"

Atlanta, GA 1994 "Together we fly"

New York, NY 1993 "Beyond your wildest
dreams"

Cleveland, OH 1992 "Back to Basics"

San Francisco, CA 1991 "There is a Solution"

Montreal, PQ 1990 "Heart to Heart around
the World"

Salt Lake City, UT 1989 "Carry the Message"

Nashville, TN 1988 "I am Responsible"

Boston, MA 1987 "A Magnificent Reality'"

Miami, FL 1986 "Sunlight of the Spirit"

Denver, CO 1985 "A Magnificant Reality"

Chicago, IL 1984

Cincinnati, OH 1983

New York, NY 1982

Minneapolis, MN 1981

Tucson, AZ 1980 "Sweet Surrender"

Vancouver, BC 1979 "Celebrate Sobriety"

Atlanta, GA 1978

Houston, TX 1977

Philadelpia, PA 1976 "The Spirit of 76"

Memphis, TN 1975

Indianapolis, IN 1974 "We've only just begun"

San Francisco, CA 1973

Cleveland, OH 1972

Reno, NV 1971

Fort Worth, TX 1970

Philadelphia, PA 1969

Toronto, Ont. 1968

Denver, CO 1967

St. Louis, MO 1966

Long Beach, CA 1965

Detroit, MI 1964

Columbia, SC. 1963

Hamilton, Ont. 1962

Milwaukee, WI 1961

Philadelphia, PA 1960

Chicago, IL 1959

Niagra Falls, 1958

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++++Message 5001. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Live Easy But Think First
From: Steve Stevenson . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/4/2008 4:27:00 PM

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If you arrange the slogans in a particular
order and use the first word of each they will
spell out:

LIVE and let live,

EASY does it,

BUT for the grace of God,

THINK think think,

FIRST things first.

- - - -

Also from: MarionORedstone@aol.com
(MarionORedstone at aol.com)

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++++Message 5002. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Did Rollie Hemsley drink again?
From: aalogsdon@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/5/2008 10:40:00 AM

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According to Bob Feller (who attended
Hemsley's funeral) and Hemsley's relatives
including Daughter, Granddaughter, and many
other relatives, Rollie never drank again.

In his recorded talk in 1968 he was still
using the sobriety date of April l6, 1939.

Some have written about Hemsley drinking again,
including Susan Cheever in her book on Bill W.
She gives the source of her information as
PASS IT ON, which does not in fact contain
any information to support the claim.

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++++Message 5003. . . . . . . . . . . . Editors of the Second Edition
From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/7/2008 10:50:00 AM

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The chief editor for the second edition was
Edward Hale B., an artist and writer and a
nephew (I believe) of a great 19th-century
painter of Western scenes.

Other editors were Maryland N. K., whose
husband was, I think, an original Batman (or
was it Superman?) comic artist,

Betty T. (I think T., and if so she may later
have been active in founding NA),

Tom (whether P. – of the 12&12 - or Y. - of
the Grapevine - I don't know),

and Ralph B., Bill's neighbor up by Katonah.

Which one of them edited the three first-
edition stories I can't say, though it might
be found out. Arch T. (changed-title story)
may have edited his own, as he died after the
Second Edition was published.

Clarence S.? Clearly Fitz M. didn't.

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++++Message 5004. . . . . . . . . . . . A Rollie Hemsley Story
From: Mike . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/6/2008 8:15:00 AM

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This appeared in the Columbus Dispatch today.
The last paragraph mentions that Rollie's
anonymity break affected his professional
career, even many years later.

Mike

http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/sports/stories/2008/05/06/columbus_bb_1
950.\

ART_ART_05-06-08_C1_LVA4ED9.html?sid=101 [13]

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++++Message 5005. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: As Bill Sees It: changed
quotations
From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/7/2008 6:52:00 PM

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At 19:56 4/28/2008, George Ewing wrote:

>I've perused As Bill Sees It for years but
>only recently noticed that many of the quotes
>from both the Big Book and Twelve Steps and
>Twelve Traditions are actually NOT quotes,
>but paraphrases.
>
>This disturbs me for a number of reasons,
>and since I noticed it I've left ABSI on
>the shelf.

It isn't as if they were trying to sneak
something by us as Bill W stated in the
Foreword to "As Bill Sees It" on p. iv,
"Because the quotations used were lifted out
of their original context, it has been
necessary in the interest of clarity to edit,
and sometimes to rewrite, a number of them."

>Does anyone know a) who decided to paraphrase
>the source material, b) whether the "letters"
>and Grapevine article snippets are also
>paraphrased?

Since the mention of editing was done by Bill,
I assume he either did it or leant his approval
to what was done.
____________________

That said, I have asked before on this forum
why the word transcendence was substituted for
victory in the Third Step Prayer on p. 210 and
have yet to receive an answer. Its use does
not seem to meet the criteria Bill listed.

Big Book Third Step Prayer p. 63:
"Take away my difficulties, that
victory over them may bear witness to
those I would help of Thy Power, Thy
Love, and Thy Way of Life."

As Bill Sees It Third Step Prayer p. 210:
"Take away my difficulties, that
my transcendence over them may bear witness to
those I would help of Thy Power, Thy
Love, and Thy Way of Life."
____________________

I would note that many things change over the
years. The Serenity Prayer we use is different
from the way Niebuhr wrote it, according to
his daughter. Scholars tell us the Christian
Bible has been changed thru the ages, but since
we have no original drafts, we have to depend
on textual analysis for attempts at what was
originally written.

The Foreword to the Fourth Edition of the Big
Book was changed almost as soon as it was
published, and I know of at least one local
Big Book Study that deems the First Printing
to be inappropriate for study. Go figure.
____________________

Off the top of my head, I am aware of only
about a half dozen places in "As Bill Sees It"
where editing has taken place, usually taking
sentences out to make the selection shorter.
There is no indication in the A.A.W.L./A.B.S.I.
where this has been done, but that is certainly
not unusual.

I use the book in my daily routine and usually
think of the changes only when I get to p. 210.
Your experience obviously has been different.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

- - - -

From Laurie A. <jennylaurie1@hotmail.com>
(jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com)

Re George Ewing's query about who was to blame
for paraphrasing AA literature in "As Bill Sees
It". There's no mystery - Bill himself was
responsible! See his foreword: "Because the
quotations used were lifted out of their
original context, it has been necessary in the
interest of clarity to edit, and sometimes to
rewrite, a number of them..."

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++++Message 5006. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Editors of Second Edition: Betty
T.
From: Chris Budnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/8/2008 1:20:00 AM

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A "Betty Thom" was involved with the HFD
(Habit Forming Drugs) groups in California and
had correspondence with Bill W. around 1954.
I've never come across any indication that
she was involved with the founding of
Narcotics Anonymous in 1953. One reference
I saw indicated that she did a lot of writing
and that HFD meetings were often held in
conjunction with AA meetings.

Here is the quote from a talk given by a
gentleman named Scott A. in 1991:

"Unrelated to that, in 1950, we also know that
there were Habit Forming Drug groups taking
place in Los Angeles, California, usually in
conjunction with AA meetings. They were also
held in homes. The principal person behind
them was a lady named Betty Thom. She did a
lot of writing. A member of our region used
to live up in Vista before he died. Last year
a friend of mine and I were allowed to go
through some of his books and papers, and he
had inches of writing from this HFD group.
They had a 12 Step guide. They had a bunch of
various articles that were type-written out on
pages like maybe a magazine article before it
got published or something. They were very
committed that the 12 Steps could work for
recovery from addiction."

Does anyone have additional information on her
or the accuracy of the above statement?

Chris

- - - -

From: jlobdell54
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008
Subject: Editors of the Second Edition

The chief editor for the second edition was
Edward Hale B., an artist and writer and a
nephew (I believe) of a great 19th-century
painter of Western scenes.

Other editors were Maryland N. K., whose
husband was, I think, an original Batman (or
was it Superman?) comic artist,

Betty T. (I think T., and if so she may later
have been active in founding NA),

Tom (whether P. - of the 12&12 - or Y. - of
the Grapevine - I don't know),

and Ralph B., Bill's neighbor up by Katonah.

Which one of them edited the three first-
edition stories I can't say, though it might
be found out. Arch T. (changed-title story)
may have edited his own, as he died after the
Second Edition was published.

Clarence S.? Clearly Fitz M. didn't.

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++++Message 5007. . . . . . . . . . . . Transcription of Henrietta
Seiberling''s remarks?
From: Rotax Steve . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/9/2008 12:43:00 PM

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I just recently heard from a speaker
(Keith L.) that in the mid 1970's, Henrietta
Seiberling was asked to be a speaker and she
was ill and could not do it. Her son spent
some time with her asking a lot of questions
which he recorded to take to the event. His
recording was said to have been transcribed.
Do any of you know of this and more
importantly do any of you have a copy of
the transcription? Was the recording ever
kept and copied, or did this even happen?

LOL, on a more humorous note, I just spell-
checked the above and the only correction
suggestion for Seiberling was "Sobering."

Thanks
~ Rotax Steve

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++++Message 5008. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: A Rollie Hemsley Story
From: Mark . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/8/2008 5:29:00 PM

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Hey Mike,

Thanks for the article, but I have a bit of a
nit to pick. The words in the article were...
"Hemsley was a recovering alcoholic, and
management feared he started drinking again
and that fueled some of his unorthodox
decisions," and that does not talk about any
anonymity break, or any possible membership
in any specific recovery organization which
might be concerned about anonymity breaks.

Thanks again for pointing us to this article.

Mark E.
Lebanon, Ohio

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++++Message 5009. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: A Rollie Hemsley Story
From: Michael F. Margetis . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/8/2008 7:50:00 AM

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It still only says management "feared" he
may have been drinking again ... still no
definitive answer. My hope is that he didn't
drink again. I just want to know (as much as
one can at this point) before I correct
someone who says he drank after his original
sobriety date.

I've had two people, who normally are sure of
their facts, say that he drank again. I told
them I thought he did NOT drink again, as far
as I knew, and they seemed surprised.

Neither could say where they read that and as
far as I can see from what I've read, (Dr. Bob
and the Good Oldtimers, Pass it On, Not God)
I can't find anything that says he did.

Thanks,
-Mike M.

In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" <tuswecaoyate@...> wrote:
>
> This appeared in the Columbus Dispatch today.
> The last paragraph mentions that Rollie's
> anonymity break affected his professional
> career, even many years later.
>
> Mike
>
>
http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/sports/stories/2008/05/06/columbu
s_bb_1950.ART_ART_05-06-08_C1_LVA4ED9.html?sid=101
>

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++++Message 5010. . . . . . . . . . . . What determines the date AA is
founded in a city?
From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/7/2008 6:59:00 PM

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As an alcoholic my sobriety date is the date I
started my journey towards continuous sobriety.
If I drink, my date is recalculated from the
date of the last drink. Many cities, however,
consider the date that AA came to the city
as the date of their 1st meeting.

In Philadelphia, it would be Feb. 28,1940.
AA started that day and has continued
uninterrupted to date.

Los Angeles says their 1st meeting was
December 19, 1939. In the booklet "How A. A.
Came to Los Angeles (Nothing can stop us
now)",it says, "Mort J came to Los Angeles.
He telephoned A. A. in New York and Ruth
Hock gave him Kaye Miller's telephone
number and address where she lived and had
meetings. He went over and asked "Where's
the meeting?" "There are no meetings any
more." Kaye said, "I'm disgusted. I'm going
to Hawaii or Europe." "Where are all the
members of A. A," he asked. "They are all
drunk," she said bitterly.

Mort J got in touch with Dr. Ethyl Leonard.
She worked with alcoholics. She happened to be
the house physician for the Cecil Hotel on
Main street. Through the good offices of Dr.
Leonard, Mort J rented a large room on the
mezzanine for $5.00. This was the first
public meeting of A. A. It was on a Friday at
8 PM, in March of 1940,"and meetings in LA
have continued uninterrupted since that date.

Is the date of a city'd continuous meetings
considered the date A. A. was founded there,
or is it the date of the 1st meeting which
never continued or "slipped"?

Many cities use the 1st meeting date as
bragging rights but sobriety is considered
as continuous.

I hope that some of you can help clarify this
matter.

See you in Niagara Falls NY in Sept.
Natl .Archives workshop
Shakey Mike Gwirtz

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++++Message 5011. . . . . . . . . . . . Henrietta Sieberling Talk as given
by John Sieberling
From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/13/2008 9:07:00 PM

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A transcription of her talk is at

http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/billwilsonmeetingsieberling.htm

- - - -

A reference to this source was also
sent in by <elg3_79@yahoo.com>
(elg3_79 at yahoo.com)

- - - -

From: "Maria Hoffman" <jhoffma6@tampabay.rr.com>
(jhoffma6 at tampabay.rr.com)

A transcript is also posted on Barefoots World:

http://www.barefootsworld.net/aaorighenriettas.html

- - - -

From: "rajiv.behappy" <rajiv.BeHappy@gmail.com>
(rajiv.BeHappy at gmail.com)

A transcript is given in the Fall 1985, Employee
Assistance Quarterly ISSN: 0749-0003

A part of the tape recording of the conversation
was played by her son John F. S. at the 1971
Founders Day meeting in Akron.

Much love from India,

Rajiv Bhole

- - - -

From: Jocelyn <prpllady51@yahoo.com>
(prpllady51 at yahoo.com)

I recently heard this recording again at the
Seiberling Estate (Stan Hywet Hall) at the
Gate House. They have copies available for
purchase at the gift shop. I don't know if a
transcription is available. You may want to
check with the curators/management.

Here is a link to the gift shop, and as you
can see you can order the CD for a cost of
$10.00. I highly recommend a personal trip.
Beside the AA history there,the estate is
alive with all sort of activities as well as
an amazing botanical garden.

http://www.stanhywet.org/product/item-13875999-7198-4fe2-85fc-93cb4507e4d6.a
spx

Regards,

Jocelyn

- - - -

This was also sent in by:
"Chris Budnick" <cbudnick@nc.rr.com>
Jerry Riley <jerrytwotord@hotmail.com>

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++++Message 5012. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Editors of Second Edition: Betty
T.
From: Sober186@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/13/2008 8:41:00 PM

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It might have been Superman, which was created
by Jerome Siegel (who wrote the story lines)
and Joe Shuster (who was the original artist).
Both were from the Cleveland area. Siegel
created the character as we know it in 1934.
The comic was first published in Action Comics
in the late 1930s.

Jim in Columbus

- - - -

In a message dated 5/12/2008
cbudnick@nc.rr.com writes:

Subject: Editors of the Second Edition

...Other editors were Maryland N. K., whose
husband was, I think, an original Batman (or
was it Superman?) comic artist,...

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++++Message 5013. . . . . . . . . . . . Upcoming Events (June 2008)
From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/14/2008 10:30:00 AM

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Annual Bill Wilson Day
Celebrating the 73rd Anniv. of the founding of AA
June 1, 2008
at the Wilson House (where Bill Wilson was born)
378 Village Street
East Dorset, VT 05253

For more info call 802/362/5524
**********
The AA Traditions & History Group along with
the Alcoholics in Action Group invite you to
an afternoon with Renowned AA Historian &
Archivist Jay S. from Redondo Beach CA
Come & hear Jay's inspiring & informative
talks on the Akron miracle, The Oxford Group
& our early AA roots.
Free Door Prize!
Saturday, June 7, 2008, 2:00 - 5:00PM
St. Joseph's School Cafeteria
44th Street & 30th Avenue (enter at 44th Street)
Astoria (Queens), NY 11103
For more info call 718/701/5801
**********
Come Celebrate Founders' Day
73rd Anniversary of AA
June 6 - 8, 2008
in Akron OH, Birthplace of AA
For more info go to http://www.akronaa.org/
& click on "Founders' Day"
**********
56th Annual Stepping Stones Picnic
June 7, 2008 - 12noon to 5:00PM (rain or shine)
At the historic home of Bill & Lois Wilson
62 Oak Road
Katonah (Bedford Hills), NY 10536
914/232/4822
Open Speaker Meeting starts at 2:00PM with
Greg M. from New York - General Manager
of GSO (AA)
Ric B. from Virginia (Al-Anon)
Mercedes V. from Mexico (Alateen)
For more info go to www.steppingstones.org
**********
The “Hightstown Early Birds” Group presents
An AA History Presentation with 250 Pictures of
Early AA with Barefoot Bill from West Milford NJ
Saturday, June 14, 2008
9:00AM – 11:45AM
First Presbyterian Church
320 North Main Street
Hightstown, NJ 08520
Pictures of the Washingtonians, Frank Buchman,
Rowland Hazard, Cebra Graves, Ebby T., Bill &
Lois W., Bill W.'s parents & grandparents,
Lois W.'s parents, Dr. Bob & family, all the
Ohio and Vermont places, Henrietta Seiberling,
Bill D., Ernie G., Clarence S., Sister Ignatia,
all the New York and New Jersey places, Charlie
Towns & Dr. Silkworth, Hank P., when the early
literature was published, the Rockefeller
dinner, gravesites, etc.
It's very exciting, combining the stories with
the images.
For more information please call Barefoot Bill
at 201/232/8749 (cell).
**********
Multi-District History & Archives Gathering
Registration opens at 8 a.m. on Saturday
June 21, 2008 at the St. Cecilia's Social Hall
750 State Drive
Lebanon PA 17042
Suggested topics for panels are:
**The Messengers to Ebby (Rowland H., Shep C.,
Cebra G.)
**AA and Baseball
**AA and Films/Theatre
**Early Days in the Mid-Atlantic Region
**AA Pioneers
**A Panel on Coming into AA in the Eastern
Pennsylvania Area in October 1970
(three old friends who have known each
other in sobriety for more than 35 years).
The Gathering is FREE with morning refreshments
and lunch provided.
End time about 4:30-5:00 p.m.
Contact the Chairman at histandarch@comcast.net

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++++Message 5014. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Henrietta Sieberling Talk as
given by John Sieberling
From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/14/2008 2:14:00 PM

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This Henrietta transcript is already on AA
History Lovers from when Nancy was still
facilitating.

Message 138

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/138

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++++Message 5015. . . . . . . . . . . . 26 Big Book Prayers
From: Hal . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/13/2008 8:18:00 PM

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I am on the hunt for a list of what I have
been told are 26 prayers in the BIG BOOK. Can
anyone help point me in the right direction?

THANKS!

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++++Message 5016. . . . . . . . . . . . Filmmakers seek memorabilia on
Cornwall Press for A.A. film
From: Chris Budnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/14/2008 12:49:00 AM

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The first printing of the Big Book was printed
by Cornwall Press in 1939. Some NYC filmmakers
are seeking memorabilia about this press for
a film they are making on the history of A.A.

______________________________

I came across the following story:

"NYC filmmakers seek memorabilia on
Cornwall Press era for A.A. film"

By Michael Randall

Times Herald-Record

May 12, 2008

CORNWALL - Check your attic, your basement
and your storage space. You might be able to
help make a movie.

Some New York City-based documentary film-
makers are working on a movie that will tell
the story of Alcoholics Anonymous.

The story has a local angle: The first edition
of "Alcoholics Anonymous," the fellowship
group's basic textbook (also commonly known
as "The Big Book") was printed by the Cornwall
Press in 1939.

But the business is long gone, and director
Kevin Hanlon and co-producer Dahlia Kozlowsky
say they've run into dead ends trying to
locate films, photographs or any other kind
of visual memorabilia of the Cornwall Press,
particularly from the '30s or '40s that would
evoke the era when the book was published.

So they're appealing to the public for help.
They figure somebody who used to work at the
Cornwall Press, or perhaps their sons and
daughters, might have some old movies or
photos from that era stored away somewhere.

A.A. grew out of a meeting in Akron, Ohio,
between a New York stockbroker, Bill W., and
an Akron surgeon, Dr. Bob S.

The beginnings of A.A. were detailed in a
1989 TV movie, "My Name is Bill W.," starring
James Woods and James Garner, but this will
be the first feature-length documentary on
the subject, Hanlon said.

"I was shocked nobody ever made a documentary
(about this) before," he said.

Hanlon said he was inspired to do the film
because he's known a number of alcoholics who
got sober through A.A. and its 12-step program.

The filmmakers haven't shot any local footage
yet, but they say that could happen later.
They don't know when it will be released;
they're still sorting through what Kozlowsky
describes as enough material "to make a 10-week
series on PBS, but that's probably not" where
it will end up playing.

mrandall@th-record.com

Anyone with film, photographs or other
memorabilia of the Cornwall Press in the
1930s/1940s can call Kozlowsky at 212/229/1358
or e-mail her at

Dkozlowsky@gmail.com
(Dkozlowsky at gmail.com)

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++++Message 5017. . . . . . . . . . . . The dispute over who founded AA in
Los Angeles
From: charles Knapp . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/14/2008 2:44:00 AM

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Hello Group,

I don’t know if I can answer the question
how to determine when AA officially comes to
a city, but I might be able to shed some light
on early AA in Southern California. How and
when AA came to Los Angeles is not as heated
a topic today as it used to be. It is my
understanding this topic actually divided some
of the early members here. According to
Kaye Miller the first AA meeting was held in
her home December 19, 1939. She was a
nonalcoholic who offered her home for that
meeting.

In a letter to Bill W., dated February 8
1947, she wrote about her recollection of
early AA in LA. In this letter she states
that her meeting moved to Glendale after a
couple weeks and rotated back and forth.
She also stated Mort J., attended her meeting
and didn’t come to LA until April 1940. In a
February 1952 Grapevine article it also cast
a shadow on the starting date for Mort’s
Cecil Hotel meeting and goes along the same
lines of Kaye’s recollections. ( Don't have a
copy of that article handy)

I do not have the whole story, but what I
have pieced together so far as to who founded
AA in Los Angeles came to a head in March 1951.
Bill came out to the West Coast to help members
elect a delegate to the first General Service
Conference. During the Saturday night meeting
the story of how AA got started in LA was
told and apparently made it look like Mort
was the sole founder of AA in Los Angeles.
The story did not settle well with some of
the early AAs and this started a heated letter
writing campaign to set the record straight.
Letters were sent to members, groups and central
offices with a copy of Kaye’s 1947 letter trying
to show what they believed to be an accurate
account of how AA got started in LA, but it
didn’t do much good.

The little blue booklet "How A. A. Came to
Los Angeles (Nothing can stop us now)" was
printed in the early 1980’s by the Southern
California Archives Committee. When it first
came out there were jokes that they had to wait
until some long timers died before they dared
published their version. From what I know now
I am not surprised if there was some truth in
those jokes.

Even AA Comes of Age (page 91) has a version
similar to the blue booklet. Kaye Miller had
gotten an advanced cope of AA Comes of Age and
was very irritated with Bill’s version of
events. While doing research a couple years
age at the GSO Archives in New York I saw at
least 2 letters from Kaye to Bill pleading
with him to revise his version before it was
published. He did make a couple of changes but
nothing like Kaye wanted. In one of Kaye’s
letters she even hinted some of the blame
falls with Mort for not setting the record
straight back in 1951 when he had a chance.

The 1947 letter might generate more questions
than answers, but I feel it shows Kaye's
meeting was going strong when Mort started
his meeting despite what the booklet says.
I plan on doing some research in the LA Central
Office Archives in June on other topics but
maybe I can find out some additional informa-
tion on this subject at that time.

I have included the redacted text of the 1947
letter for you to enjoy.

Hope this helps

Charles from California

******************************************

February 8, 1947

To: Messrs: Bill W., Luis A., Barney H.,
Clarence O’B., Ham B., Fred H., Frank S.,
Pete C., Johnny Howe, Hal S., Dee G., Mort J.,
Cliff W., “Doc” H., Al M., Editor, The Eye
Opener

This is just one of those rambling "remem-
bering when" things. If most of you think I'm
off my rocker for writing this, that's O.K.,
because where else but in A.A. could I do odd
things without fear of finger pointing? It's
a "first among you cast the first stone" deal,
isn't it?

Third time's the charm. I first heard about
A.A. though Andy in 1937 -- remember, Bill?
It wasn’t AA then -- The Book hadn't been
published yet. But I was sure Ty wouldn't go
for it. Smart guy I was -- I didn't even tell
him, just because God was involved. Then we
telephoned you in 1938, Bill -- but Ty wasn't
"ready". Then in April 1939 came to us in
West Los Angeles a mimeographed copy of the
Book. Did you keep that hysterical and
(I fear) dramatic telegram I sent - and the
follow-up? I shall never forget the utter
despair that filled me at your reply: "There
is a group in Akron, Ohio". Ohio! where Ty was
facing commitment for life if I returned him
and left him. Well- that ended right--with Ty
in A.A. But I remember that though I couldn't
believe you were alcoholics--you and Bob and
Hank and Marty, I still said that when I
returned to L.A. that I'd be glad to tell
anyone who was as desperate as I had been
that I'd seen 100 of you who said you'd been
alcoholics and that I knew you were decent
members of society now. But I got on an A.A.
jag on the boat coming back to L.A. Remember
Pat C. and how he got sober on the advance
sheets of the Book--his story "Lone Endeavor"
was in the first edition. I looked him up as
you asked me to Bill. I know he slipped and
went Fast--but at long last he is again trying
A.A. He may make it this time. You sent me
contacts, Bill, but there wasn't enough of
them, so I asked Alma Whitaker of the Times
to help--and she did.

From June 1939 to late November and nothing
definite accomplished--then our great and
wonderful break! On December 1st, 1939 was
sent to Johnny Howe, who was then Psychopathic
Probation Officer of A.A. county. He devoured
the Book and turned over to help A.A. all the
vast resources of L.A. County He and that
wonderful Mrs. Dodge! Then almost the same
day came the letter from Ruth Hock, New York
office's secretary, telling me that Lee T. was
coming to L.A. Here was opportunity -- a real
live member of A.A. coming here! We chose
December 19th as the date and I wrote to
everyone who'd contacted me, and on that date
in my little house on Benecia in West Los
Angeles the following met: Lee and Chuck T.,
Barney and Ethel H., Chauncey and Edna C.,
Dwight S. and his sister, Joey and Mrs. S.,
three non-alcoholic women, Johnny Howe and me!
Do you still have that telegram I sent in such
triumph: "Los Angeles held its first meeting
tonight. Fifteen present." Two meetings at my
house, then we moved to Barney H.s in Glendale,
then back to my house on Gower in Hollywood in
February, 1940. We alternated between Barney
and Ethel's house and mine. By then Hal and
Estelle S. had joined us (January 18, 1940).
What a terrific thing you did in starting the
San Diego group in the jail, Hal, and in
starting the groups in Lincoln Heights.

From December 19, 1939 to the present time,
Barney has never let a week go by without at
least one meeting attended. Clarence Mc.
joined us in early February or late January,
1940, and though he was a bar-tender, never
so much as sniffed at a drink from that time
on. All unbeknownst to us, another grand
member had been born. Mort J. got sober in
Palm Springs between Christmas and New Years
of 1939. It was in early April, 1940 you
telephoned me, Mort, wasn't it? You said
you had tried to start a group in Denver and
hadn't had too much success and had decided to
come back to L.A. and had gotten my name and
address from Bill. I treasured for years the
florist card on which you said: "For you
graciousness, you friendship and unfailing
hospitality", and the postscript you wrote on
one of those letters I sent weekly and some-
times daily to Bill reporting your progress:
"What this country needs is not a good five
cent cigar, but more Kayes." Is that still on
file, Bill? I blessed my secretarial training
for those carbon copies I kept, so I could
trace our progress. In February Lee started the
group that became the Pasadena Home Group. One
very illustrious early member of that group was
"Doc" H. – he led the downtown beginners group
for years. Then she went to San Francisco. Now
I hear she's in Florida. Los Angeles will always
be grateful to Lee for her untiring efforts for
us here. It was she who got the City Mother of
the Examiner to give us a break, and it was she
who got Ted Le Berthon's publicity for us.
Bill B. came to us in about March of 1940 and
what a God-send he was. Sober - a member of the
Chicago Group--wonderfully steady. How he
helped us in those trying early days. Then he,
too, went to San Francisco. Frank C. joined us
while we were meeting in the house we'd rented
as a clubhouse on Crescent Heights in 1940
(either March of April). What a relief it was
to be able to be sure the group was in your
capable hands, Mort, when I went back to
Honolulu in May of 1940, and what a splendid
job you did in building up the group and
laying the foundation for all the many groups
here in the Los Angeles area. L.A. will never
forget Frank R., and the wonderful work he and
you did working together. I don't know exactly
when Frank came in, but it was after May 5, 1940.

Now that I am again faced with leaving
Southern California A.A., I desperately want
to straighten up any misunderstanding. Joy S.
is the oldest member in point of sobriety in
A.A., but he hasn’t been to a meeting since
April or May of 1940. Barney H. was at the
first meeting, too, but he had a little
trouble at first. Hal S. is the oldest member
who stayed sober and came to meetings starting
January 18, 1940. Mort Joseph was sober three
weeks before Hal, but didn't come to a meeting
in L.A. until about April (1940) (Bill's office
would have the exact date). That original gang
was the foundation of the group now known as
the "Mother Group". They outgrew our homes and
rented space at the Cecil Hotel, from there
they progressed--when I was here in March of
1941 they met at the Elk's Temple.

A.A. in Southern California is so pure and
unadulterated, don't spoil it EVER. If there
MUST be any glory attached to A.A., let it
rest equally on Barney, Hal and Mort, and on
all those people who tried so valiantly in
those earl days-- and Bill P., Wally K.,
Owen F. --A.A. is too big for petty squabbles.
The truth is bound to come out. What does it
matter who was first? We've pioneered so many
things here in L.A.-all men and all women
groups, colored groups and non-alcoholic
groups. If they exist in the East, I couldn't
find them in Chicago or Washington, D.C.

I shall always remember Bill Wilson's words
to me: "Though I am proud to have been an early
member of Alcoholics Anonymous, I'd still sell
my title as `Founder' for $1.98." That's true
humility, and if it's good enough for Bill,
it's good enough for me.

/s/ Kay Miller
`Scuse the lousy typing

******************************************

Shakey1aa@aol.com wrote in Message 5010, "What
determines the date AA is founded in a city?"

Los Angeles says their 1st meeting was
December 19, 1939. In the booklet "How A. A.
Came to Los Angeles (Nothing can stop us
now)",it says, "Mort J came to Los Angeles.
He telephoned A. A. in New York and Ruth
Hock gave him Kaye Miller's telephone
number and address where she lived and had
meetings. He went over and asked "Where's
the meeting?" "There are no meetings any
more." Kaye said, "I'm disgusted. I'm going
to Hawaii or Europe." "Where are all the
members of A. A," he asked. "They are all
drunk," she said bitterly.

Mort J got in touch with Dr. Ethyl Leonard.
She worked with alcoholics. She happened to be
the house physician for the Cecil Hotel on
Main street. Through the good offices of Dr.
Leonard, Mort J rented a large room on the
mezzanine for $5.00. This was the first
public meeting of A. A. It was on a Friday at
8 PM, in March of 1940,"and meetings in LA
have continued uninterrupted since that date.

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++++Message 5018. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The dispute over who founded AA
in Los Angeles
From: Charles Grotts . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/16/2008 6:45:00 PM

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If you get the cassette tape of a program in
1975, hosted by Sybil, where Mort J. and some
of the old-timers who founded AA in Los Angeles
spoke, it will provide you with a lot of
information about how AA started in 1939 in
Los Angeles, died out, and was revived in 1940.

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++++Message 5019. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The dispute over who founded AA
in Los Angeles
From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/17/2008 9:56:00 PM

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Hi Folks,

This is Mel B. from Toledo offering an
opinion about the start of AA in Los Angeles.
I interviewed Kaye Miller in Sarasota and her
former husband, Ty Miller, in Cleveland, both
around 1980. Ty, unfortunately, was so far
gone with Alzheimer's that he couldn't come
up with any accurate memories.

In October, 1948, I heard a Glendale man
named Barney Haller speak in Santa Barbara.
He said that a group of them were meeting at
the request of the courts in 1939, but their
meeting wasn't AA at the time. Then a woman
wearing a fur coat and carrying a Big Book
popped into one of their meetings and told
how the program had helped her ex-husband.
I believe this was Kaye Miller, and she had
carried the book from the East on a trip to
the West. Barney apparently claimed this as
the start of AA in LA.

I don't know if this can be verified or
not. But I toss it into the hopper as another
opinion. I did see Barney once again and as
late as 1959, when he was still an active
member of the Glendale group.

However AA got to California, it really
took off when it did. Ohio led all the states
in AA membership until 1948, when California
took the lead. We can assume California has
had the lead ever since. My theory is that
California was already full of people who had
taken geographical cures by moving west. Once
they got to California, they couldn't go any
farther so they had no choice but to sober up!

Mel

Mel Barger < melb@accesstoledo.com >
(melb at accesstoledo.com)

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++++Message 5020. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 26 Big Book Prayers
From: Debi Ubernosky . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/15/2008 12:37:00 AM

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From: "Debi Ubernosky" <dkuber1990@verizon.net>
(dkuber1990 at verizon.net)

A Google search of "Prayers of the Big Book"
returned this:

http://www.ppgaadallas.org/ppgaa6%20Articles/Big%20Book%20Prayers.doc

which is what I've seen before.

Alternately, go to
http://www.ppgaadallas.org/aa_articles.htm
and scroll down to "Prayers of the Big Book"
and click to download the MS Word doc.

Debi

- - - -

From: Bill Lash <barefootbill@optonline.net>
(barefootbill at optonline.net)

Please go to:

http://www.justloveaudio.com
click on "free resources"
then click on "12 Steps"
then click on "Step 10 & 11"
then click on "Step 11 Prayers in the Big Book"

Happy hunting!

Just Love,
Barefoot Bill

- - - -

From: "Donna Bridges"
<donnabridges1018@gmail.com>
(donnabridges1018 at gmail.com)

Start at page i, read through page 164 and note
as you find them...I'm sorry, I'm channeling my
sponsor

hugs to all,

db

- - - -

From: Jocelyn Geboy
<jocelyngeboy@sbcglobal.net>
(jocelyngeboy at sbcglobal.net)

i'm curious what you find out ... i find these
places where prayer is *explicitly* mentioned,
but i was going through the book pretty fast ...

pp. 59, 63, 67, 68, 69, 76, 83, 84, 85, 86, 86,
87, and 87

jocelyn

- - - -

Original Message No. 5015
From Hal <hallaws@yahoo.com>
(hallaws at yahoo.com)

> I am on the hunt for a list of what I have
> been told are 26 prayers in the BIG BOOK. Can
> anyone help point me in the right direction?
>
> THANKS!

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++++Message 5021. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Editors of Second Edition: Tom
P.
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/19/2008 4:57:00 PM

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Message #5003 from <jlobdell54@hotmail.com>
(jlobdell54 at hotmail.com) noted that

"the chief editor for the second edition was
Edward Hale B."

It went on to say that other editors included
"Tom (whether P. – of the 12&12 - or Y. - of
the Grapevine - I don't know)."
______________________________

In a further message (18 May 2008) to
mdingle76@yahoo.com (mdingle76 at yahoo.com)

Jared Lobdell added the following remark:

"Thanks very much. My guess had been it was
Tom P (rather than Tom Y) but I wasn't sure.

I'd be interested to know which was the story
Tom included that some AAs didn't like (or
whose author they didn't like)."

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++++Message 5022. . . . . . . . . . . . Re:The dispute over who founded AA
in Los Angeles
From: Doris Ringbloom . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/19/2008 4:31:00 PM

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Regarding Pasadena, I had always heard it was
Duke P that started in AA in Pasadena in 1940
at the South Pasadena Women's club. When
people talk of AA in Los Angeles, it's not
clear whether they mean L.A. the city proper,
or Los Angeles county.

Doris R.

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++++Message 5023. . . . . . . . . . . . California Supreme Court
From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/20/2008 5:47:00 PM

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Does anybody have any information on this
subject?

Thanks

....the California Supreme Court ordered all
Hazelden and A.A. literature removed from the
California schools on the grounds that
Hazelden was promoting a religion.

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++++Message 5024. . . . . . . . . . . . Jung & Alcoholics Anonymous
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/23/2008 6:45:00 PM

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From: "John Blair" <jblair@wmis.net>
(jblair at wmis.net)

Jung & Alcoholics Anonymous:
Nautis Project on UTube

See http://www.nautis.com/2008/05/22/jung-alcoholics-anonymous/

Or go directly to YouTube and see the original
video directly. It was posted by: amourxxx112,
and is entitled "Jung, Alcoholics Anonymous,
And Drug Seeking Behaviour"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceoB-tE5yWI

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++++Message 5025. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: who founded AA in Los Angeles /
Pasadena
From: steven.calderbank@verizon.net> . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/19/2008
5:32:00 PM

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Unless I am mistaken, didn't Duke P. start AA
in Toledo? I heard him speak at his 56 year
(I think) anniversary in 99 or 2000 near
Jacksonville Florida.

He spoke a little about Toledo but that was
all. He didn't mention California.

We are talking about the Duke P. from "Dr Bob
and the Good Oldtimers," correct?

- - - -

Message #5022 from
"Doris Ringbloom" <dringbloom@netzero.net>
(dringbloom at netzero.net)

Re: The dispute over who
founded AA in Los Angeles

Regarding Pasadena, I had always heard it was
Duke P that started in AA in Pasadena in 1940
at the South Pasadena Women's club. When
people talk of AA in Los Angeles, it's not
clear whether they mean L.A. the city proper,
or Los Angeles county.

Doris R.

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++++Message 5026. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: who founded AA in Los Angeles /
Pasadena
From: Sally Brown . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/19/2008 7:19:00 PM

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A historical footnote to Pasadena AA: Thanks
to the founding of an AA group around 1940
(this seems to be an unresolved date so far -
does GSO have a record?), a local resident,
Tom Pike, joined in 1946. Three years later,
in 1949, his equally famous wife, Katherine,
already a community leader (but not an
alcoholic), founded the Pasadena affiliate
of the National Council on Alcoholism.
Pasadena was the second Calif NCA affiliate,
after Santa Barbara. Both Pikes became
prominent leaders in NCA nationally.

This is a good example of AA's spillover
effect in many, many communities. Once AA was
established, NCA (NCADD today) then became
a primary mover and shaker in stimulating
communities to undertake the myriad tasks of
reducing the stigma of addiction that AA could
not, e.g. education beyond the AA membership
about addiction, lobbying for adequate medical
care of alcoholics, influencing local, state,
and federal legislation on behalf of alcoholics,
etc.

Marty Mann, the founder of NCA and herself a
very early member of AA (1939, NYC), said her
organization might never have got off the
ground if AA didn't already exist as an
excellent resource and solution for referral.

Shalom - Sally

Rev Sally Brown
Board Certified Clinical Chaplain
United Church of Christ

Coauthor with David R Brown: A Biography of
Mrs. Marty Mann: The First Lady of Alcoholics
Anonymous

1470 Sand Hill Rd, 309
www.sallyanddavidbrown.com
Palo Alto, CA 94304
Phone/Fax: 650/325/5258

- - - -

Note from the moderator:

Tom Pike and Brinkley Smithers personally
lobbied President Nixon, their fellow
Republican, in support of the Hughes Act.
Brink eventually also enlisted the support
of Don Kendall, the CEO of Pepsi, and Nixon
finally signed the bill, which was the most
important piece of successful alcoholism
legislation in U.S. history. This provided
the basis, in many crucial ways, of the
modern alcoholism and drug addiction
treatment center.

See the book by Nancy Olson, who founded
the AAHistoryLovers, "With a Lot of
Help from Our Friends: The Politics of
Alcoholism," for the full story of how a
small number of AA members combined forces
to get that epoch-making piece of legis-
lation passed and implemented by the U.S.
Congress.

http://hindsfoot.org/kNO1.html

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana, US)

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++++Message 5027. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: California Supreme Court
From: steven.calderbank@verizon.net> . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/22/2008
3:11:00 PM

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I know there were simlar court cases slightly
related to it. There is a movement to have AA
labeled as religion:

http://www.sfgate.com/flat/archive/2007/09/07/chronicle/archive/2007/09/07/B
A99S\

1AKQ.html [14]

San Francisco Chronicle

Parolees can't be forced into
Alcoholics Anonymous, court rules

Bob Egelko, Chronicle Staff Writer

Friday, September 7, 2007

SAN FRANCISCO - Alcoholics Anonymous, the
renowned 12-step program that directs problem
drinkers to seek help from a higher power,
says it's not a religion and is open to
nonbelievers. But it has enough religious
overtones that a parolee can't be ordered
to attend its meetings as a condition of
staying out of prison, a federal appeals
court ruled today.

In fact, said the Ninth U.S. Circuit Court of
Appeals in San Francisco, the constitutional
dividing line between church and state in such
cases is so clear that a parole officer can be
sued for damages for ordering a parolee to go
through rehabilitation at Alcoholics Anonymous
or an affiliated program for drug addicts.

Rulings from across the nation since 1996 have
established that "requiring a parolee to attend
religion-based treatment programs violates the
First Amendment," the court said. "While we in
no way denigrate the fine work of (Alcoholics
Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous), attendance
in their programs may not be coerced by the
state."

The 12 steps required for participants in both
programs include an acknowledgment that "a power
greater than ourselves could restore us to
sanity," and a promise to "turn our will and
our lives over to the care of God as we
understood Him." They also call for prayer
and meditation.

Today's 3-0 ruling allows a Honolulu man to go
to trial in a suit on behalf of his late father,
Ricky Inouye, who was paroled from a drug
sentence in November 2000. A Buddhist, he
objected to religiously oriented drug treatment
in prison, sued state officials over the issue,
and told Hawaii parole authorities just before
his release that he would object to any
condition that included a treatment program
with religious content.

When Inouye was arrested for trespassing in
March 2001 and tested positive for drugs, his
parole officer, Mark Nanamori, ordered him to
attend a Salvation Army treatment program that
included participation in Narcotics Anonymous
meetings, the court said.

Inouye showed up but refused to participate,
dropped out after two months, and, for that
and other reasons, was sent back to prison
in November 2001 for violating his parole.

After his release in 2003, he sued Nanamori
and others for violating his constitutional
rights. Inouye died while the suit was pending
and his son took over the case.

A federal judge dismissed the suit, saying
officers are required to pay damages for
violating constitutional rights only when
those rights are already clearly established.

But the appeals court said Nanamori should have
known in 2001 that coerced participation in a
religion-based program was unconstitutional,
because eight state and federal courts had
ruled on the issue by then and all had agreed
that a parolee has a right to be assigned to
a secular treatment program.

E-mail Bob Egelko at begelko@sfchronicle.com
(begelko at sfchronicle.com)

- - - -

Original message From <jax760@yahoo.com>
(jax760 at yahoo.com)

Does anybody have any information on this
subject? Thanks

....the California Supreme Court ordered all
Hazelden and A.A. literature removed from the
California schools on the grounds that
Hazelden was promoting a religion.

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++++Message 5028. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: California Supreme Court
From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/22/2008 3:59:00 PM

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From Mitchell K. and Bill Middleton

- - - -

From "Mitchell K." <mitchell_k_archivist@yahoo.com>
(mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com)

It is interesting that this would even be called a
subject. It sounds like something quoted out of the
writing of Secret Agent Orange from the Orange-Papers
or some other AA bashing site.

I would think right off the top of my head that no
suppreme court would ban all literature from any
publisher regardless whether or not that publisher
promoted religion. Secondly, despite what those folks
in AA Basher land would like to think, I do not recall
any court ruling that AA was a religion. Many courts
have ruled that AA was religious in nature and a
religious activity but again, I do not recall any
ruling stating that AA was a religion.

I don't engage in a debate with AA bashers, especially
students of Secret Agent Orange. Orange has a great
Curriculum called "Propaganda and Debating Techniques"
on how to engage "steppers" in debate with some really
neat arguments. One will never win with these folks
(whatever win means) as their agenda is not to debate
or discuss but to frustrate.

Upon review of the web site of the California Courts
( http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/ ) I found nothing about
this what I believe is another urban legend. I also
reviewed the California Department of Education web
site and again, found nothing relating to this.

Most governmental agencies, bowing to court rulings
stating that AA is a religious activity no longer
mandate attendance at meetings or mandating reading AA
literature. One such edict can be found at
http://www.oasas.state.ny.us/mis/bulletins/lsb2002-05.cfm
- The New York State Office of Alcoholism and
Substance Abuse Services Local Services Bulletin
#2002-05

It goes into detail about "the providers who mandate
participation in A.A., is a violation of the principle
of separation of church and state."

Simply put according to what I looked at on the net -
URBAN LEGEND

- - - -

From: William Middleton <wmiddlet44@yahoo.com>
(wmiddlet44 at yahoo.com)

I "Googled" that sentence and it returned
this address....

http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-spirrel.html

That article said:

"Kurtz, in Not-God: A History of Alcoholics
Anonymous, 1991, page 281, says that one large
treatment agency accounts for two thirds of
the outside sales of A.A.W.S. literature.
Without a doubt, that one treatment agency is
Hazelden. They so aggressively redistribute
A.A. literature that the California Supreme
Court ordered all Hazelden and A.A. literature
removed from the California schools on the
grounds that Hazelden was promoting a
religion."

May GOD Bless You!
Bill

- - - -

Original message from <jax760@yahoo.com>
(jax760 at yahoo.com)

Does anybody have any information on this
subject? Thanks

....the California Supreme Court ordered all

Hazelden and A.A. literature removed from the
California schools on the grounds that
Hazelden was promoting a religion.

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++++Message 5029. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: California Supreme Court
From: David . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/23/2008 5:42:00 PM

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From crescentdave, dikilee, and chief_roger

- - - -


From "David" <crescentdave@yahoo.com>
(crescentdave at yahoo.com)

Here's one piece of the puzzle: per Michael J.
Bohn, M.D., Clinical Associate Professor,
Department of Psychiatry, U.W. Medical School,
Gateway Recovery, Madison, WI reported in 1994:
AA and Hazelden materials religious and banned
from California Youth Authority classrooms.

Note: this is NOT the same as regular public
schools.

cit:
http://dhfs.wisconsin.gov/substabuse/Education/Teleconference/ArchivedMateri
als/\

2002presentations/AATALK021202.pdf. [15]

- - - -

From: "Dick" <dikilee@yahoo.com>
(dikilee at yahoo.com)

There was a 1994 California case: California
State Employees Association vs. The California
Youth Authority, in which the court held that
Hazelden materials could not be used in CYA
classrooms. I do not believe this was the
California Supreme Court as a year later it
was thrown out by another judge.

- - - -

From: ROGER WHEATLEY <chief_roger@yahoo.com>
(chief_roger at yahoo.com)

I found this on an atheist website along with
other litigation supporting their view that AA
is a religious organization.

"In 1994, all materials from Hazelden
Publications, a publishing arm of AA, were
ordered out of California Youth Authority
classrooms. Additionally, decrees announcing
the right to refuse Twelve-Step participation
were posted in all living quarters."

http://www.americanatheist.org/spr97/T2/piety.html

- - - -

Original message from <jax760@yahoo.com>
(jax760 at yahoo.com)

Does anybody have any information on this
subject? Thanks

....the California Supreme Court ordered all
Hazelden and A.A. literature removed from the
California schools on the grounds that
Hazelden was promoting a religion.

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++++Message 5030. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Big Book cover and Ray Campbell
From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/22/2008 6:31:00 PM

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Even though this is a reply to an oldie here is some
more biographical info about Ray...

Raymond M. Campbell was approximately 44 years old
when he designed the Dust Jackets for the Big Book. He
was born on 12, September 1894 in New Haven
Connecticut. During his lifetime he lived in
Connecticut and Manhattan (NYC). In 1938, Ray lived at
the Gipsy Trail Club in Kent, NY which had a Carmel,
NY mailing address. Circa 1921 he married a woman
named Fanny who was born in NY around 1891. Fanny
predeceased Ray.

Ray died in Orange, Connecticut (New Haven County) on
15, January 1986.

Even though according to the US Census, Ray was listed
as a printer and artist and folks have said he was a
recognized artist, I have yet to find any examples of
his art work other than the Dust Jacket. Nell Wing
told me that Ray had painted a portrait of Jesus that
was supposed to have been a real work of art. Neither
she nor Lois remembered where that portrait ended up.
I am continuing to research to find more information.

I also tracked down a relative of T. E. Borton whose
home one of the early Cleveland meeting was held. Mr.
Borton was not a member of AA but the relative has not
answered any of my attempts at contacting him. T.E.
Borton IV lives in Atlanta, GA

Lots of living relatives I have been trying to locate
appear to be reluctant to answer any attempts at
contact. It would be nice to find out how our founding
members spent the rest of their lives.

Irwin Meyerson, the Jewish Venetian Blind salesman
from Cleveland and sponsored by Clarence Snyder and
helped start AA in Atlanta, GA, West VA and had some
influence in Indiana and orher places was living in
Los Angeles, CA in 1964. His father Meyer died in 1964
in North Hollywood, CA.

I'm trying to do a research piece on whatver happened
to....

--- Glenn Chesnut <glennccc@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> Here is Nancy Olson's short bio of Ray Campbell,
> who designed the Big Book dust jackets we have
> been discussing:
>
> http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/Authors.htm
>
> An Artist's Concept -- Ray Campbell
> New York City
> p. 380 in 1st edition
>
> Ray joined the fellowship in February 1938.
>
> He began his story by quoting Herbert Spencer:
> "There is a principle which is a bar against
> all information, which is proof against all
> arguments and which can not fail to keep a man
> in everlasting ignorance-that principle is
> contempt prior to investigation."
>
> He said that the quotation is descriptive of
> the mental attitudes of many alcoholics when
> the subject of religion, as a cure, is first
> brought to their attention. "It is only when
> a man has tried everything else, when in utter
> desperation and terrific need he turns to
> something bigger than himself, that he gets
> a glimpse of the way out. It is then that
> contempt is replaced by hope, and hope by
> fulfillment."
>
> Ray chose to write of his search for spiritual
> help rather than "a description of the neurotic
> drinking that made the search necessary."
>
> After investigating his alcoholic problem from
> every angle, medicine, psychology, psychiatry,
> and psychoanalysis, he began "flirting" with
> religion as a possible way out. He had been
> approaching God intellectually. That only
> added to his desperation, but a seed had been
> planted.
>
> Finally he met a man, probably Bill Wilson,
> who had for five years "devoted a great deal
> of time and energy to helping alcoholics."
> The man told him little he didn't already know,
> "but what he did have to say was bereft of all
> fancy spiritual phraseology -- it was simple
> Christianity imparted with Divine Power."
>
> The next day he met over twenty men who "had
> achieved a mental rebirth from alcoholism."
>
> He liked them because the were ordinary men
> who were not pious nor "holier than thous."
>
> He notes that these men were but instruments.
> "Of themselves they were nothing."
>
> He must have been an intellectual type. He not
> only quotes Spencer, but Thoreau: "Most men
> lead lives of quiet desperation."
>
> It was Ray, a recognized artist, who was asked
> to design the dust jacket for the 1st edition
> of the Big Book. He submitted various designs
> for consideration including one that was blue
> and in an Art Deco style. The one chosen was
> red, and yellow, with a little black, and a
> little white. The words Alcoholics Anonymous
> were printed across the top in large white
> script. It became known as the circus jacket
> because of its loud circus colors. The unused
> blue jacket is today in the Archives at the
> Stepping Stones Foundation.
>
> His story was not included in the Second
> Edition of the Big Book but the Spencer quote
> was placed in the back of the book in
> Appendix II, "Spiritual Experience."
>
>
>

The most wonderful thing about losing my memory is that now I will always be
able to discover new places, meet new people and make new friends...

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++++Message 5031. . . . . . . . . . . . Lois'' Picnic is June 7th ,not June
3rd
From: Gene . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/24/2008 1:03:00 PM

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Friends,

The notice sent out by the group is incorrect-
It is the Annual Steppingstones picnic in Bedford-
It is always the first Saturday in June

This year the date is June 7th
http://www.steppingstones.org/house.html

Gene in Westchester

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++++Message 5032. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: California Supreme Court
From: David . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/25/2008 6:04:00 PM

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Your desire to draw a point of significant distinction between the
concepts of religion and religious are explicitly rejected by the 7th
Circuit Court in it's ruling:

In the United States Court of Appeals For the Seventh Circuit

No. 95-1843

JAMES W. KERR,
Plaintiff-Appellant,
v.
CATHERINE J. FARREY and LLOYD LIND,
Defendants-Appellees.

Appeal from the United States District Court for the Western District
of Wisconsin. No. 94-C-942--John C. Shabaz, Chief Judge. ARGUED
JANUARY 12, 1996--DECIDED AUGUST 27, 1996

Before CUMMINGS, FLAUM, and DIANE P. WOOD, Circuit Judges.

DIANE P. WOOD, Circuit Judge, in her explication of the Circuit ruling:
The district court thought that the NA program escaped the "religious"
label because the twelve steps used phrases like "God, as we
understood Him," and because the warden indicated that the concept of
God could include the non-religious idea of willpower within the
individual. We are unable to agree with this interpretation. A
straightforward reading of the twelve steps shows clearly that the
steps are based on the monotheistic idea of a single God or Supreme
Being. True, that God might be known as Allah to some, or YHWH to
others, or the Holy Trinity to still others, but the twelve steps
consistently refer to "God, as we understood Him." Even if we expanded
the steps to include polytheistic ideals, or animistic philosophies,
they are still fundamentally based on a religious concept of a Higher
Power. Kerr alleged, furthermore, that the meetings were permeated
with explicit religious content. This was therefore not a case (again,
on the present record) where the only religious note was struck by the
insertion of the words "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance, or
other incidental references that the courts have upheld. See, e.g.,
Sherman v. Wheeling School District, 980 F.2d 437 (7th Cir. 1992).
Because that is true, the program runs afoul of the prohibition
against the state's favoring religion in general over non-religion.

The Court of Appeals of New York has recently come to the same
conclusion we reach today in Matter of David Griffin v. Coughlin, No.
73, 1996 WL 317180, 63 USLW 2003 (N.Y. App. Ct. June 11, 1996). In
that case, the Court of Appeals held that the Establishment Clause
does not permit the state to deprive an atheist or agnostic inmate of
eligibility for an expanded family visitation program because of his
refusal to participate in the sole alcohol and drug rehabilitation
program at his state correctional facility--the same AA and NA
programs at issue here. Two federal district courts have also decided
similar cases. In Warner v. Orange County Dept. of Probation, 870 F.
Supp. 69 (S.D.N.Y. 1994), the court decided that the Establishment
Clause was violated when the only option available to a convicted
motorist for required rehabilitation was the program run by AA.

I'd have to say this topic and the question which raised it have a
great deal to do with AA history. The influence of the courts, both
mandating AA attendance and then not doing so, have profoundly
affected AA groups- at least in the U.S. It brings up issues which go
to the heart of our traditions, aspects like affiliation, the
"lending" (volunteered or not) of our names and requirements for
membership.

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Mitchell K."
<mitchell_k_archivist@...> wrote:
>
> From Mitchell K. and Bill Middleton
>
> - - - -
>
> From "Mitchell K." <mitchell_k_archivist@...>
> (mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com)
>
> It is interesting that this would even be called a
> subject. It sounds like something quoted out of the
> writing of Secret Agent Orange from the Orange-Papers
> or some other AA bashing site.
>
> I would think right off the top of my head that no
> suppreme court would ban all literature from any
> publisher regardless whether or not that publisher
> promoted religion. Secondly, despite what those folks
> in AA Basher land would like to think, I do not recall
> any court ruling that AA was a religion. Many courts
> have ruled that AA was religious in nature and a
> religious activity but again, I do not recall any
> ruling stating that AA was a religion.
>
> I don't engage in a debate with AA bashers, especially
> students of Secret Agent Orange. Orange has a great
> Curriculum called "Propaganda and Debating Techniques"
> on how to engage "steppers" in debate with some really
> neat arguments. One will never win with these folks
> (whatever win means) as their agenda is not to debate
> or discuss but to frustrate.
>
> Upon review of the web site of the California Courts
> ( http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/ ) I found nothing about
> this what I believe is another urban legend. I also
> reviewed the California Department of Education web
> site and again, found nothing relating to this.
>
> Most governmental agencies, bowing to court rulings
> stating that AA is a religious activity no longer
> mandate attendance at meetings or mandating reading AA
> literature. One such edict can be found at
> http://www.oasas.state.ny.us/mis/bulletins/lsb2002-05.cfm
> - The New York State Office of Alcoholism and
> Substance Abuse Services Local Services Bulletin
> #2002-05
>
> It goes into detail about "the providers who mandate
> participation in A.A., is a violation of the principle
> of separation of church and state."
>
> Simply put according to what I looked at on the net -
> URBAN LEGEND
>
> - - - -
>
> From: William Middleton <wmiddlet44@...>
> (wmiddlet44 at yahoo.com)
>
> I "Googled" that sentence and it returned
> this address....
>
> http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-spirrel.html
>
> That article said:
>
> "Kurtz, in Not-God: A History of Alcoholics
> Anonymous, 1991, page 281, says that one large
> treatment agency accounts for two thirds of
> the outside sales of A.A.W.S. literature.
> Without a doubt, that one treatment agency is
> Hazelden. They so aggressively redistribute
> A.A. literature that the California Supreme
> Court ordered all Hazelden and A.A. literature
> removed from the California schools on the
> grounds that Hazelden was promoting a
> religion."
>
> May GOD Bless You!
> Bill
>
> - - - -
>
> Original message from <jax760@...>
> (jax760 at yahoo.com)
>
> Does anybody have any information on this
> subject? Thanks
>
> ....the California Supreme Court ordered all
> Hazelden and A.A. literature removed from the
> California schools on the grounds that
> Hazelden was promoting a religion.
>

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++++Message 5033. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Question about the circle,
triangle and other
From: chief_roger . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/26/2008 10:07:00 AM

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General Service Board of Alcoholics Anonymous (Great Britain) Limited
publishes much of its own literature. The hard cover Big Book is one
of these items (other versions of the BB are purchased from AAWS and
imported). Also some pamphlets it has borrowed and "anglecized" and
others produced by and for the population they serve. T
The "circle triangle" is used by the GSB GB (the body who publishes
this literature. The circle triangel was not "banned", AAWS chose to
drop it as a registered trademark for reasons probably detailed
elsewhere on this site and others. The version used on GB literatures
has the words unity, service, recovery around the outside of the
triangle.
I served as a conference delegate for the standadrd three years term
in GB. during that time, I learned a great deal about AA literature
in GB and its conference approval, development, and publication
differ significantly from the process in US/Canada.

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "ginnymatthew"
<ginnymatthew@...> wrote:
>
> I just received a fourth edition 2001 Big Book
> printed in Great Britain. The dust jacket and
> the title page have the AA circle and triangle
> logo that I thought was 'banned' from being
> used back in 1996. How is it that they are
> able to use this logo?
>
> Also on the front page is a disclaimer which
> states "No part of this publication may be
> reproduced, stored in a retrievable system,
> or transmitted in any form or by any means
> without the prior permission of the publisher."
>
> U.S. texts don't seem to have this disclaimer.
> What is that about?
>
> Gratefully,
> Ginny
>

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++++Message 5034. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: California Supreme Court
From: Charles Grotts . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/26/2008 12:25:00 PM

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I did a Westlaw search in California reported
and unreported cases from 1990-1999 and did
not find the word "Hazelden."

In California criminal sentencing law, AA is
considered a sectarian group. Attendance at
AA can still be made a condition of probation
but only if the probationer has an option to
attend a non-sectarian self-help group, and
only if the probationer does not object to it.
Cal. Code of Regulations, Title 9, Section 9860.

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++++Message 5035. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Big Book cover and Ray Campbell
From: John Lee . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/24/2008 3:21:00 PM

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Raymond Campbell also misquoted Thoreau. The
correct quote from Thoreau is, "The mass of
men lead lives of quiet desperation." The quote
can be found in Walden, published 1854.
John Lee
Pittsburgh

- - - -

See Ray C.'s story, "An Artist's Concept,"
First Edition pp. 380-385, where he alters
that line from Thoreau to say:

"'Most men,' wrote Thoreau, 'lead lives of
quiet desperation.' It was the articulation
of this despair that led to my drinking in
the beginning."

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++++Message 5036. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: California Supreme Court
From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/27/2008 8:59:00 AM

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Circuit judge Diane Wood's ruling would be
incontrovertible if AA members were required
to practice the 12 Steps as a religious
discipline; but as we know, the only require-
ment for AA membership is a desire to stop
drinking (or, as in my case, to stay stopped).
There is no creedal imperative in the AA
program.

Complications arise when, for example, patients
in a treatment centre are indeed required to
practice some or all of the 12 Steps as part
of that institution's regime. As Dave reminds
us, this dissonance goes to the heart of our
Traditions.

Bill W. wrote: "As a society we must never
become so vain as to suppose that we are
authors of a new religion. We will humbly
reflect that every one of AA's principles
has been borrowed from ancient sources."
(Alcoholics Anonmymous Comes of Age).

- - - -

From: Baileygc23@aol.com
(Baileygc23 at aol.com)

AA says it is not a religion and the written
word of AA reinforces this thought, but some
of the religious-minded within AA have
presented AA as a God-based thing. What can
the courts do but react to the vast majority
of the members and their need to expound on
their view of AA?

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++++Message 5037. . . . . . . . . . . . Anonymity statement
From: Alan Spencer . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/27/2008 11:35:00 AM

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Not too long ago I was at a meeting that had
the statement displayed:

"Whom you see here, what you hear here, when
you leave here, let it stay here. Anonymity
is the spiritual foundation of our program."

At the bottom it said Al-Anon. Is this where
this saying came from and is this what Al-Anon
calls their anonymity statement?

Alan S., New Mexico

- - - -

From the moderator:

Some of the AA meetings in my part of the US
have a reading which is read at the beginning
of meetings, called "The Tools of Recovery"

See http://hindsfoot.org/tools.html

It was put together by two of my sponsor's
sponsors. The seventh tool is that anonymity
statement. Some of the local folks say that
this statement was first read by one of the
people who put together the seven "tools of
recovery" when he was attending an Al-Anon
meeting (or in another version of the story
an O.A. meeting). I have never checked that
out though.

Do any members of our group know more about
this?

We also need to remember that, as Bill W.
himself once pointed out, everything in AA
was originally borrowed from someone else.

The "Think Think Think" signs came from IBM,
the Serenity Prayer from a newspaper obituary,
the Lord's Prayer at the end of meetings
from the Oxford Group, and so on.

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

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++++Message 5038. . . . . . . . . . . . Anonymity Statement
From: Art Boudreault . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/29/2008 6:04:00 PM

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Dear Alan,

This card is indeed published by Al-Anon Family Groups.

The official anonymity policy can be found in their Service Manual 2006 -
2009
on pages 83 and 84. The service manual is also available on the web site
http://www.al-anon.org/members

I copied the reference below my signature. The part in italics is often read
at
open Al-Anon meetings.

Sincerely,

Art Boudreault
Anonymity

The experience of our groups suggests that the principle of
anonymity—summed up
in Tradition Twelve as “the spiritual foundation of all our
Traditions”—has
three elements: There is anonymity as it applies outside Al-Anon, governing
our
contacts with nonmembers and organizations; anonymity within the fellowship;
and
anonymity as it contributes to our personal growth.

Anonymity Outside Al-Anon

Tradition Eleven gives a specific guideline: “we need always maintain
personal
anonymity at the level of press, radio, TV and films.” This gives
potential
members confidence that their identity will not be revealed when they join
Al-Anon. Also, personal anonymity at the public level guards the fellowship
from
the Al-Anon/Alateen member who may be tempted to seek public recognition.
When
speaking or writing as an Al-Anon/Alateen member at the level of press,
radio,
TV or films, use only first names or pseudonyms. In photographs for
publication
and in TV appearances, faces should not be recognizable. This may be
achieved by
back-tocamera or blurring of features in some way. It is, however, important
to
make Al-Anon known through our public information work with professionals
who
come into contact with families still suffering from the effects of
alcoholism.
Such contacts, of course, make it necessary for the Al-Anon and Alateen
members
involved to give their full names. Al-Anon members also give their full
names to
interested doctors, spiritual leaders, school or industrial personnel.

Anonymity Within Al-Anon

Members use their full names within the fellowship when they wish. The
degree of
anonymity a member chooses (first name, pseudonym, or full name) is not
subject
to criticism. Each member has the right to decide. Regardless of our
personal
choice, we guard the anonymity of everyone else in the fellowship,
Al-Anon/Alateen and A.A. This means not revealing to anyone—even to
relatives,
friends, and other members—whom we see and what we hear at a meeting.
Anonymity
goes well beyond mere names. All of us need to feel secure in the knowledge
that
nothing seen or heard at a meeting will be revealed. We feel free to express
ourselves among our fellow Al-Anons because we can be sure that what we say
will
be held in confidence.

84 Al-Anon/Alateen Members’ Web site: Digest of Al-Anon and Alateen
Policies

At open Al-Anon meetings, group anniversaries, conventions, or workshops
where
nonmembers are present, Al-Anon and Alateen members are free to decide how
much
anonymity they prefer. It is well to open such meetings with a brief
explanation
of the Eleventh and Twelfth Traditions. One suggestion is as follows:

There may be some who are not familiar with our Tradition of personal
anonymity
at the public level. If so, we respectfully ask that no Al-Anon, Alateen or
A.A.
speaker or member be identified by full name or picture in published or
broadcast reports of our meeting. The assurance of anonymity is essential to
our
efforts to help other families of alcoholics, and our Tradition of anonymity
reminds us to place Al-Anon and Alateen principles above personalities.

At the service level (Group Representatives, District Representatives, World
Service Conference members, etc.) it is practical to use full names and
addresses to facilitate communication. Letters (including the return
address) to
an Al-Anon or Alateen member should never have the name Al-Anon or Alateen
on
the envelope. Letters to The Forum should give full names, addresses and
phone
numbers. Material that is published will be signed any way the writer
wishes:
first name and initial, initials only, “Anonymous”—either with or
without
geographical location. Area Newsletter Editors usually follow this
procedure.

Anonymity in Our Personal Growth

Each member has the right of decision regarding personal anonymity within
the
fellowship. We share as equals, regardless of social, educational or
financial
position. Common sense in the use of anonymity provides freedom and the
security
each member is assured in Al-Anon. Our spiritual growth has its roots in the
principle of anonymity.

2. Anonymity statement
Posted by: "Alan Spencer" alan.nm46@yahoo.com alan.nm46
Date: Thu May 29, 2008 12:53 pm ((PDT))

Not too long ago I was at a meeting that had
the statement displayed:

"Whom you see here, what you hear here, when
you leave here, let it stay here. Anonymity
is the spiritual foundation of our program."

At the bottom it said Al-Anon. Is this where
this saying came from and is this what Al-Anon
calls their anonymity statement?

Alan S., New Mexico

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 5039. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Anonymity statement
From: Steven Leeds . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/29/2008 4:00:00 PM

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I've seen in documentaries about the Manhattan
Project the slogan "Whom you see here. What
you see here. When you leave here let it stay
here" posted in the factories.

I think it did may have originated from there.

Blessings,
Steven L.

- - - -

From the moderator:

The Manhattan Project (1941-1946) was the top
secret World War II project in which the United
States, Canada, and the United Kingdom worked
together to produce the first atomic bomb.
Research took place at over thirty sites in
the United States, Canada, and United Kingdom.

If this was a Manhattan Project slogan, it
seems likely that it was they who invented it,
and our Al-Anon sisters and brothers who then
later on "went nuclear" by adapting the slogan
for their use.

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana, U.S.)

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++++Message 5040. . . . . . . . . . . . Revising my beginners AA history
book page
From: diazeztone . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/29/2008 9:21:00 PM

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I am revising my beginners AA history book page.

http://www.aabibliography.com/beginnersbooks.htm

Suggestions and input are needed.

I certainly need to add Glenn'ss books. Any
other suggestions?

I am trying to keep this to one 8-1/2 by 11
inch page to make it easily printable.

Email me personally at <eztone@hotmail.com>
(eztone at hotmail dot com)

I would increase this list to two pages, if
the group thought there were that many books
that need to be added.

LD Pierce
editor aabibliography.com

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++++Message 5041. . . . . . . . . . . . Bob Corwin passing (was: Sybil C. &
Tex)
From: Alex H. . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/30/2008 12:52:00 AM

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I just received word that Bob Corwin (Sybil
Corwin's husband) died Saturday 24 May 2008
at the age of 86.

According to Matt M. Bob had a stroke last
year and had an assisted-living housekeeper
since then. Bob suffered from a second stroke
on Friday, was taken to the hospital and died
the next day. His son was at his bedside.

Bob C. came into AA in 1948 (Sybil had come
into AA in 1941) and after several relapses,
Bob maintained continuous sobriety for 44 years
until his death.

It has been Matt M's habit to call Bob C.
once a week but this time, Bob's son called
Matt.

Alex H.

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++++Message 5042. . . . . . . . . . . . Cooperation with Al-Anon and Alateen
statement
From: Pat Jehn, RN C, LNC . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/31/2008 2:37:00 PM

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Mates:

I have been trying to locate in A.A. literature
the part where "cooperation with Al-Anon and
Alateen" is encouraged.

We are having a problem with Tradition 6 in that
some people want to put include ACA (Adult
Children of Alcoholics) in meetings and meeting
schedules.

I understand that Tradition 6 should be
sufficient to cover this matter, but the
exact wording of the "cooperation with other
activities" statement would help.

Thanks for your assistance.

Pat Jehn, RN,C
Legal Nurse Consultant
MEDICAL-LEGAL CONSULTING, LLC
399 S. 12th St.
DeFuniak Springs, Fl 32435

PatJehn@Embarqmail.Com
(PatJehn at Embarqmail.Com)

850-951-9899

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++++Message 5043. . . . . . . . . . . . Significant June Dates in A.A.
History
From: chesbayman56 . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/31/2008 5:14:00 PM

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June 1:
1949 - Anne Smith, Dr. Bob's wife, died.

June 4:
2002- Caroline Knapp, author of "Drinking: A Love Story" died sober
of lung cancer.

June 5:
1940 - Ebby Thatcher took a job at the NY Worlds Fair.

June 6:
1940 - The first AA Group in Richmond, VA, was formed.
1979 - AA gave the two-millionth copy of the Big Book to Joseph
Califano, then Secretary of Health, Education, and Welfare. It was
presented by Lois Wilson, Bill's wife, in New York.

June 7:
1939 - Bill and Lois Wilson had an argument, the first of two times
Bill almost slipped.
1941 - The first AA Group in St. Paul, Minnesota, was formed.

June 8:
1941 - Three AA's started a group in Kalamazoo, Michigan.

June 10:
1935 - The date that is celebrated as Dr. Bob's last drink and the
official founding date of AA. There is some evidence that the
founders, in trying to reconstruct the history, got the date wrong
and it was actually June 17.

June 11:

1945 - Twenty-five hundred attend AA's 10th Anniversary in Cleveland,
Ohio.
1969 - Dr. Bob's granddaughter, Bonna, daughter of Sue Smith and
Ernie Galbraith (The Seven Month Slip in the First Edition) killed
herself after first killing her six-year-old child.
1971 - Ernie Galbraith died.

June 13:
1945 - Morgan R. gave a radio appearance for AA with large audience.
He was kept under surveillance to make sure he didn't drink.

June 15:
1940 - First AA Group in Baltimore, MD, was formed.

June 16:
1938 - Jim Burwell, "The Vicious Cycle" in Big Book, had his last
drink.

June 17:
1942 - New York AA groups sponsored the first annual NY area
meeting. Four hundred and twenty-four heard Dr. Silkworth and AA
speakers.

June 18:
1940 - One hundred attended the first meeting in the first AA
clubhouse at 334-1/2 West 24th St., New York City.

June 19:
1942 - Columnist Earl Wilson reported that NYC Police Chief Valentine
sent six policemen to AA and they sobered up. "There are fewer
suicides in my files," he commented.

June 21:
1944 - The first Issue of the AA Grapevine was published.

June 24:

1938 - Two Rockefeller associates told the press about the Big
Book "Not to bear any author's name but to be by 'Alcoholics
Anonymous.'"

June 25:
1939 - The New York Times reviewer wrote that the Big Book is "more
soundly based psychologically than any other treatment I have ever
come upon."

June 26:
1935 - Bill Dotson. (AA #3) entered Akron's City Hospital for his
last detox and his first day of sobriety.

June 28:
1935 - Dr. Bob and Bill Wilson visited Bill Dotson at Akron's City
Hospital.

June 30:
1941 - Ruth Hock showed Bill Wilson the Serenity Prayer and it was
adopted readily by AA.
2000 - More than 47,000 from 87 countries attended the opening
meeting of the 65th AA Anniversary in Minneapolis, MN.

Other significant events in June for which we have no specific date:

1948 - A subscription to the AA Grapevine was donated to the Beloit,
Wisconsin, Public Library by a local AA member.
1981 - AA in Switzerland held its 25th Anniversary Convention with
Lois Wilson and Nell Wing in attendance.

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++++Message 5044. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Significant June Dates in A.A.
History
From: John Lee . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/1/2008 1:46:00 PM

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Morgan R.'s radio appearance on Gabriel
Heatter's NBC program was in 1939, not in
1945. Previous postings, including one from
NBC licensing, indicate that the actual date
of the program was April 25, 1939, shortly
after the publication of the Big Book. Morgan
was sequestered in the Downtown Athletic Club
to ensure a sober appearance on the 1939 radio
show. I believe Morgan was the guy who ran a
multilith copy of the Big Book past the New
York Catholic Publications Office for its
comments. His crisp appearance at the 1940
Rockefeller dinner at the Union Club is also
noted in the Conference literature.

John Lee
Pittsburgh

- - - -

Message 5043 from <chesbayman56@yahoo.com>
(chesbayman56 at yahoo.com) said:

June 13:
1945 - Morgan R. gave a radio appearance for
AA with large audience. He was kept under
surveillance to make sure he didn't drink.

- - - -

From the moderator:

Hmmm. Could this have been an error that
crept into this year's date list? or has
there been reason to change the dating?

The date given up to this point has been
in the April section of the date list, as
in for example Messages 4941 (in 2008),
4206 (in 2007), and so on:

"April 25, 1939 - Morgan R interviewed on
Gabriel Heatter radio show."

See also:

- - - -

Message 4020: We The People Radio program 1939
From: <leeannplatner@yahoo.com>
(leeannplatner at yahoo.com)

We are searching for an episode of WE THE PEOPLE
radio program from April 1939 featuring Gabrielle
Heatter with guest, Morgan R and his discussion
of AA.

We produced the program, and have a transcript,
but we do not have a copy of the audio recording
and the holdings we donated to the Library of
Congress do not include this episode. We would
love to borrow and/or pay to have a dub made if
any member has an actual copy of this recording.

- - - -

Message 589: People in AA History - pt 4
From: <tcumming@airmail.net>
(tcumming at airmail.net)

Morgan R. - Irish Catholic, ex-ad man; came
A.A. early January 1939; had friend on Catholic
Committee Publications New York Archdiocese,
delivered mimeograph copy Big Book to committee,
they approved; spoke popular radio program
'We The People ' April 1939 shortly after
release Greystone institution; attended John
D. Rockefeller 's A.A. dinner Feb 1940; Wilson's
stayed his apartment about 2 months

(A 168-169,174-175,183) (B 286,295) (H 62)
(L 115,127) (N 47,75,90, 93) (P 201,207,208,
209,215,221,232-233)

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++++Message 5045. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Cooperation with Al-Anon and
Alateen statement
From: David Jones . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/31/2008 4:45:00 PM

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The Fellowships of Alcoholics Anonymous and the
Al-Anon Family Groups have a unique relationship.
They are naturally drawn together by their
close ties. And yet the Twelve Traditions, the
General Service Boards, and the General Service
Conferences of both Fellowships suggest that
each functions more effectively if it remains
"separate," cooperating but not affiliating
with the other. Each Fellowship has always had
its own General Service Board, General Service
Office, Conference, publishing company, and
directory. Each has established its own
policies and maintained its own services.
This separate functioning has served both A.A.
and Al-Anon Family Groups well. A.A.'s policy
of "cooperation but not affiliation" was
established as long ago as the early 1950s,
and both Al-Anon and A.A. recognized at that
time the importance of maintaining separate
Fellowships. However, from time to time,
questions come to both A.A. and Al-Anon
General Service Offices indicating confusion
as to how A.A. and Al-Anon may best cooperate
in the groups, intergroups or central offices,
and area and regional conventions and get
togethers. A.A. and Al-Anon have shared on
these questions, and A.A.'s General Service
Conference approved the following suggested
guidelines:

Question: Should a group be affiliated with
both A.A. and Al-Anon?

Answer: As the primary purpose of the A.A.
group is to help the sick alcoholic to recover
and the primary purpose of the Al-Anon Family
Group is to help the Al-Anon to live with
herself or himself, as well as with the
alcoholic, it is suggested they not be
combined, but remain separate groups. This
enables both Fellowships to function within
their Twelve Traditions and to carry their
messages more effectively. Thus, the group
name, the officers, and the meeting should be
either A.A. or Al-Anon, but not both. "The
A.A. Group" pamphlet suggests, "Whether open
or closed, A.A. group meetings are conducted
by A.A. members, who determine the format of
their meetings." At open meetings, non-A.A.s
may be invited to share, depending upon the
conscience of the group. Naturally, all are
welcome to open meetings of both A.A. and
Al-Anon groups.

Question: Should "family groups" be listed
in A.A. directories?

Answer: "After discussion, the Conference
reaffirmed A.A. group policy that only those
with a desire to stop drinking may be members
of A.A. groups; only A.A. members are eligible
to be officers of A.A. groups; nonalcoholics
are welcome at open meetings of A.A. It is
suggested that the word 'family' not be used
in the name of an A.A. group; if A.A.s and
their nonalcoholic mates wish to meet together
on a regular basis, it is suggested they
consider these gatherings 'meetings' and not
A.A. groups.

Listing in A.A. directories:

It was the sense of the meeting that the
family groups should not be listed under the
family group name in the directories.

Question: Should A.A. and Al-Anon have combined
central (or intergroup) services and offices?

Answer: Experience and the Twelve Traditions of
A.A. and Al-Anon suggest that each Fellowship
will function more effectively if each retains
separate committees, staffs, and facilities
for handling telephone calls, as well as
separate telephone answering services, inter-
group activities. bulletins, meeting lists,
and Twelfth Step services of all types. Also,
that the members involved in each service
committee or office be A.A. members, if an
A.A. facility, and Al-Anon, if an Al-Anon

facility.

Question: How may A.A. and Al-Anon cooperate in
area and regional conventions and get-togethers?

Answer: In accordance with the Twelve Traditions,
a convention would be either A.A. or Al-Anon --
not both. However, most A.A. convention
committees invite Al-Anon to participate by
planning its own program, and the committee
arranges for facilities for the Al-Anon meetings.

Question: When Al-Anon participates in an A.A.
convention, what is the financial relationship
between the two Fellowships?

Answer: The relationship and the financial
arrangements usually follow one of two
patterns: When an A.A. convention committee
invites Al-Anon to participate with its own
program, A.A. may pay all expenses (for
meeting rooms, coffee, etc.) and keep all
income from registrations, etc., in a single
fund used to pay all convention bills, after
which any excess income reverts back to A.A.
Alternatively, Al-Anon may have a separate
registration and pay its own direct expenses,
plus a proportionate share of common expenses
of the convention. Al-Anon, in this case,
receives its own share of the registration
income and also shares in any losses that
may be incurred.

A.A.®Guidelines from G.S.O., Box 459, Grand
Central Station, New York, NY 10163

A.A. Guidelines are compiled from the shared
experience of A.A. members in the various areas.
They also reflect guidance given through the
Twelve Traditions and the General Service
Conference (U.S. and Canada). In keeping with
our Tradition of Autonomy, except in matters
affecting other groups or A.A. as a whole,
most decisions are made by the group conscience
of the members involved. The purpose of these
Guidelines is to assist in reaching an informed
group conscience.

Relationship Between A.A. and Al-Anon

Question: Should an A.A. convention committee
make a contribution to Al-Anon from the
financial profits of the convention?

Answer: In accordance with the self-support
Traditions of both Fellowships and to abide by
the concept of "cooperation but not affili-
ation," it is suggested that A.A. should not
make gifts or contributions to Al-Anon. By the
same token, A.A. should not accept contributions
from Al-Anon.

If separate registrations have been kept for
both A.A. and Al-Anon members, however, income
may be easily assigned.

Question: How may I get in touch with Al-Anon?

Answer: Check your phone book for local
intergroup office, or write: Al-Anon/Alateen
Family Group, Inc., 1600 Corporate Landing
Parkway, Virginia Beach, VA 23454-5617.
Tel: 800/356/9996;
www.al-anon.alateen.org.

A.A.'s Debt of Gratitude to Al-Anon

The following resolution of gratitude to the
Fellowship of the Al-Anon Family Groups was
unanimously approved by the 1969 General Service
Conference of Alcoholics Anonymous.

The delegates of this, the 19th General Service
Conference of Alcoholics Anonymous, meeting in
official session in New York City, this 25th
day of April, 1969, do hereby declare:

WHEREAS, it is the desire of this Conference
to confirm the relationship between Alcoholics
Anonymous and the Al-Anon Family Groups, and
WHEREAS, it is the further desire of this
Conference to acknowledge A.A.'s debt of
gratitude to the Al-Anon Family Groups,
therefore,
BE IT RESOLVED, that Alcoholics Anonymous
recognizes the special relationship which it
enjoys with the Al-Anon Family Groups, a
separate but similar fellowship. And be it
further resolved that Alcoholics Anonymous
wishes to recognize, and hereby does recognize,
the great contribution which the Al-Anon Family
Groups have made and are making in assisting
the families of alcoholics everywhere.

God bless
Dave J.
>
> Mates:
>
> I have been trying to locate in A.A. literature
> the part where "cooperation with Al-Anon and
> Alateen" is encouraged.
>
> We are having a problem with Tradition 6 in that
> some people want to put include ACA (Adult
> Children of Alcoholics) in meetings and meeting
> schedules.
>
> I understand that Tradition 6 should be
> sufficient to cover this matter, but the
> exact wording of the "cooperation with other
> activities" statement would help.
>
> Thanks for your assistance.
>
> Pat Jehn, RN,C
> Legal Nurse Consultant
> MEDICAL-LEGAL CONSULTING, LLC
> 399 S. 12th St.
> DeFuniak Springs, Fl 32435
>
> PatJehn@Embarqmail.Com <mailto:PatJehn%40Embarqmail.Com>
> (PatJehn at Embarqmail.Com)
>
> 850-951-9899
>
>
>

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++++Message 5046. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Cooperation with Al-Anon and
Alateen statement
From: James Bliss . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/31/2008 8:08:00 PM

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It does not contain the phrase which you quote,
but there is a AA Guideline - 'Relationship
Between A.A. and Al-Anon' which addresses. It
states 'And yet the Twelve Traditions, the
General Service Boards, and the General Service
Conferences of both Fellowships suggest that
each functions more effectively if it remains
“separate,” cooperating but not affiliating
with the other.'

This guideline can be located at:
http://www.aa.org/en_pdfs/mg-08_relationshipbet.pdf

Jim

- - - -

Pat Jehn, RN C, LNC wrote:
> Mates:
>
> I have been trying to locate in A.A. literature
> the part where "cooperation with Al-Anon and
> Alateen" is encouraged.
>
> We are having a problem with Tradition 6 in that
> some people want to put include ACA (Adult
> Children of Alcoholics) in meetings and meeting
> schedules.

- - - -

From: Jon Markle <serenitylodge@bellsouth.net>
(serenitylodge at bellsouth.net)

Is a "meeting" schedule considered to be something published by AA?
If not, the traditions do not apply to it.

For example, almost every website for the local intergroup offices
list AA meetings and LINKS to other 12-step Fellowships webpages for
their meeting lists.

Many areas, especially those smaller areas, where daily meetings are
scarce, publish their lists which include all known 12-step fellowship
meetings.

As I understand it . . . Schedules are the act of a group of AA's, who
do not represent AA as such, IMO. If, for example AA, Al-anon and NA
or any other 12-step fellowship wish to combine their efforts to
publish a general schedule, it would seem prudent to do so, and it
would be a simple matter (less expensive, but more difficult to
coordinate), to identify each meeting under whatever 12-step
Fellowship it falls.

I see no reason (legally or otherwise) not to cooperate in this
matter, except perhaps an ego-territorial problem that some people
seem to have (resentment). After all, every one of the 12th steps is
about carrying the message of recovery. It's not about making sure we
keep separate from others or withholding information that could be and
generally is, very helpful.

Why oh why must we continue to act this way, like we (AA) have all the
answers and can't stand to share important information, make it easily
accessible to others, that could possibly save their lives?

I believe that it's important to follow the traditions, but so often
we push them far beyond the limits of their intention, into the
bizarre and useless.

Both AA and Al-anon have "blurbs" in their literature about "spirit of
cooperation" -- as they do about treatment centers and hospitals. I
think most of the 12-step fellowships remind us of this important
spiritual attitude.

Hugs for the trudge.

Jon (Raleigh)
9/9/82

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++++Message 5047. . . . . . . . . . . . Meeting formats
From: Bent Christensen . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/1/2008 4:21:00 AM

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Hi group

Yesterday I was at a convent here in Denmark
and the subject meeting formats came up.

As I understand it the first meetings were
speaker meetings, is that correct? Do you have
any idea when and how the different meeting
formats developed?

Kind regards from sunny Denmark

Bent

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++++Message 5048. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Cooperation with Al-Anon and
Alateen statement
From: John Hettish . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/1/2008 11:12:00 PM

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Hello folks,

I have a copy of the Al-anon version of the
cooperation statement if anyone would like to
see it. I'm sure Al-anon's World Service
Office would also make it available if asked.

John Hettish
jhettish@united.net
(jhettish at united.net)

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++++Message 5049. . . . . . . . . . . . Early four step AA program ???
From: rajiv.behappy . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/27/2008 8:52:00 AM

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After reading Hank Parkhurst's proposed outline
for the Big book, it seems clear to me that the
original program had four steps in 1938 and not
the 6 Steps that Bill W wrote about as the
original AA's word-of-mouth steps in the July
1953 Grapevine article (and in AA Comes of Age).

Do any of you know what the original four steps
were?

Much Love

Rajiv Bhole

- - - -

Message #2567: HANK P.'s FOUR STEP RENDITION
From: <mertonmm3@yahoo.com>
(mertonmm3 at yahoo.com)

"In my mind religious experience - religion -
etc. should not be brought in. We are actually
irreligious - but we are trying to be helpful
- we have learned to be quiet - to be more
truthful - to be more honest - to try to be
more unselfish - to make other fellows troubles
- our troubles - and by following four steps
most of us have a religious experience. The
fellowship - the unselfishness appeals to us."

- - - -

From the moderator, Glenn C.:

Rajiv, you needed to keep on reading in that
document,where Hank went on to say further
along:

"I am fearfully afraid that we are emphasizing
religious experience when actually that is
something that follows as a result of 1 - 2 -
3 - 4.

"In my mind the question is not particularly
the strength of the experience as much as the
improvement over what we were. I would ask a
man to compare himself as follows after say
a month –

"#1 - As compared to 2 months ago do you have
more of a feeling that there is a power greater
than you [?]

"#2 - Have you cleaned out more completely
with a human being than ever before?

"#3 - Have you less bad things behind you
than ever before [?]

"#4 - Have you been more honest with youself
and your fellow man - Have you been more
honest with yourself and your fellow man -
Have you been more thoughtful of people with
whom you are associated - Has your life been
cleaner both by thought & action - Have you
looked at others less critically and yourself
more critically this last 30 days. You will
never be perfect but the question is have you
been more perfect?"

- - - -

These were not "four steps" that you took, in
the same sense as the twelve steps of the
twelve step program in the Big Book.

- - - -

There is also a mention of "four steps" in
Message #2788 from <tcumming@nc.rr.com>
(tcumming at nc.rr.com), where it says:

From the end of a 1st edition of the Big Book
story titled THE CAR SMASHER, page 369:

"There are, it seems to me, four steps to be
taken by one who is a victim of alcoholism.
First: Have a real desire to quit.
Second: Admit you can't. (This is hardest.)
Third: Ask for His ever present help.
Fourth: Accept and acknowledge this help."

[That mans story is also on pg 193 of 2nd &
3rd ed, but it was rewritten and renamed to
He Had to Be Shown, and does not have the 4
Steps.]

- - - -

That was intended for people at the very
beginning, when they first came into
Alcoholics Anonymous. There were other
things that people had to do after that
(confession, restitution, regular prayer
and quiet time, and so on) which were
recognized as necessities in AA from the
beginning (and went back to Oxford Group
practice).

So it seems to me that it would be very
misleading to say that "the original program
had four steps in 1938."

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana, U.S.)

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++++Message 5050. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Anonymity statement and
Al-Anon''s table card
From: Art Boudreault . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/4/2008 9:28:00 PM

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Dear AA History Lovers,

Posted by: "
Date: Thu May 29, 2008 12:53 pm ((PDT))

Not too long ago I was at a meeting that had
the statement displayed:

"Whom you see here, what you hear here, when
you leave here, let it stay here. Anonymity
is the spiritual foundation of our program."

At the bottom it said Al-Anon. Is this where
this saying came from and is this what Al-Anon
calls their anonymity statement?

Alan S., New Mexico

- - - -

I have continued to ask for dates and sources.
I asked 300 former and current Al-Anon
delegates and the Al-Anon World Service Office
(WSO) for the history of the table card.

The saying appears to have originated in Al-
Anon in Britain and was brought to the
attention of the US WSO in 1973. The WSO
found no references to the Manhattan Project
in their archives for any reason. As you may
know, the entire archive of Al-Anon has been
placed into a huge database from which they
may find anything in print that originated or
passed through their office. It is interesting
how quickly the word "who" was changed to
"whom".

Below my signature is a copy of the statement
I received from the WSO and two long timers.

Sincerely,

Art Boudreault

- - - -

From Al-Anon World Service Archives:

According to existing research, the table card
appears to have originated at Al-Anon meetings
in Britain, and was then produced by the WSO
in 1973. In the August 1973 issue of The
Forum, on page 4, in an article titled, “A
Delegate Re-Lives World Service Conference,”
Margaret H., Delegate at the 1973 World Service
Conference from South Carolina, wrote:

“The tent-fold card propped up during Al-Anon
meetings in Britain, bearing the words: “Who
you see here, what you hear here, let it stay
here.” So that all groups may profit from
the British Al-Anon reminder the WSO has
also produced these to sell for the 10¢ each,
or $1.00 a dozen; lest our members be tempted
to call our attention to the word “Who” as
ungrammatical, we hasten to explain in advance
that this was done on purpose to make it
colloquial and familiar.”

The word “who“ was replaced by “whom” sometime
between the 1978 printing and the 1981 printing,
and remains this way today.

We found no mention of the Manhattan Project
in the Al-Anon Archives. If you find out
anything more, I’d be interested to know.

From Irma ( member of Al-Anon since 1964): When
this placard first came out it said: "Who you
see here......." As I recall Blanche, a school
teacher and past delegate, wrote to the WSO
to say this is bad language. She told them it
should read "Whom you see here.." So it was
changed.

We talked about this at my homegroup one
night...why it was changed. While we were
discussing it, a small voice said: "Whom
cares?'

From Suzie C "My late husband worked for the
Atomic Energy Commission, while the A-bomb was
in its conception and early testing stages in
several very secure locations. Though he did
not join AA until later in his life (+/-10
years after I joined Al-Anon). I know that,
surreptitiously at first, then openly after
he joined AA, he read every piece of my
(propaganda!) Al-Anon literature. Later he
embraced the AA program himself. I am pretty
sure he would have told me if he recognized
the anonymity statement from any of his
connections with the AEC, which went on
throughout his life. sc28

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++++Message 5051. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Anonymity statement
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/6/2008 3:19:00 PM

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Did Al-Anon go nuclear?

Well, the Al-Anon anonymity statement (as
used also by many AA groups, see for example
http://hindsfoot.org/tools.html ) reads:
"Whom you see here, what you hear here, when
you leave here, let it stay here. Anonymity
is the spiritual foundation of our program."

The Manhattan Project sign (posted at more
than one of the secret World War II sites
involved in the building and dropping of the
first nuclear bombs) was identical except that
it had "what" instead of "whom," and three
monkeys (one with his hands over his eyes,
one with his hands over his ears, and one
with his hands over his mouth).

Even if the Al-Anon organization in the U.S.
says that they got it from the Al-Anon
organisation in Britain, the overall Manhattan
Project involved the U.S., Britain, and Canada
all three. British scientists (and research
facilities) were very much part of the team
that built the bomb. So saying that the
statement came originally from Britain does
not mean that it could not have had any link
to the Manhattan Project.

See the photo, for example, at the bottom of
the web page given below, where a prominent
road sign along an English highway says:

"Brentwood
Kelvedon Hatch A 128
Industrial Estates
Secret Nuclear Bunker"

This is from
http://www.patheticphotos.com/pathetic-things.htm
http://www.patheticphotos.com/Pathetic-Things/secret-nuclear-bunker.htm

We've already got the camel as an AA symbol and
the mythical bird called the phoenix (rising in
flight from the flames of rebirth). But three
monkeys as AA symbol? Hmmm. I have been told
that a long automobile ride with Frank N.,
Floyd P., Big Al M., and me all in the same
vehicle reminded some people of a trip with
the Three Stooges.

But anyway, here are some references, the first
one from the excellent website maintained by
the Tennessee State AA Archives. They say that
the Three Monkeys sign was displayed at Oak
Ridge, Tennessee, a major Manhattan Project
site, and show us an actual picture of what it
looked like:

http://area64tnarchives.org/whatyouseehere.html

<<What You See Here, What You Do Here, What
You Hear Here, When You Leave Here, Let It Stay
Here>>

http://narademo.umiacs.umd.edu/cgi-bin/isadg/viewseries.pl?seriesid=4110

<<Included, as well, are numerous close-ups of
billboard messages promoting loyalty and
security themes (e.g., in Notebook 59, bill-
board picture of three monkeys, announcing "What
You See Here, What You Do Here, What You Hear
Here,When You Leave Here, Let It Stay Here!").>>

http://www.wendoverairbase.com/HWA%20Sixty%20Years%20-%20LVRJ.doc

<<Barbed wire barred the entrance to hangars
and shops. Warning signs went up all along the
perimeter. The largest one, near the exit, read:
"WHAT YOU HEAR HERE, WHAT YOU SEE HERE, WHEN
YOU LEAVE HERE, LET IT STAY HERE.">>

http://www.mphpa.org/classic/VET_STORIES/MO/CG/Pages/Metro-P.htm

<<When we returned the ramp was fenced in and
we had to wear special badges to be admitted.
More personnel were arriving daily, forming
support units, to form the 509th Composite
Group. Col. Tibbets told us we were going to
"hasten the war's end". Our airplanes began
arriving; we knew then that our mission was
special, by the configuration of the planes
(no gun turrets, etc.) and other circumstantial
manifestations. We radar types had been
subjected to loyalty investigations before
we were eligible for radar training, so the
signs, "What you see here, what you hear here,
when you leave here, let it stay here!" wasn't
anything new.>>

http://books.google.com/books?id=6-jWpCYBTR0C&pg=PA269&lpg=PA269&dq=%22when+
you+\

leave+here+let+it+stay+here22+Manhattan+Project&source=web&ots=W-XQWIytdv&si
g=zF\

nqFv2joIPddBGcwRVcTXJpvqI&hl=en [16]

<<... WHEN YOU LEAVE HERE LET IT STAY HERE

"That's the original," Miss Marx explained to
me, as if it were a Picasso.

"The original from -- "

"From the Manhattan Project. It used to hang
over the gates at Los Alamos. It's sort of
the unofficial motto of the Skytale Club.
It's part of why our members can feel
relaxed here.">>

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++++Message 5052. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Anonymity statement and the Oak
Ridge nuclear facility
From: Steven Leeds . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/6/2008 3:37:00 PM

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Here's a link to the source of the saying, on
the Tennessee state AA archives site:

http://area64tnarchives.org/whatyouseehere.html

It originated from the Oak Ridge Facility, from
signs used during the Second World War. Almost
every history page on the internet for the Oak
Ridge facility makes mention of the monkeys and
the saying.

Blessings,
Steven L.

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++++Message 5053. . . . . . . . . . . . Text of the Gabriel Heatter
broadcast
From: diane unger . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/3/2008 8:30:00 AM

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Gabriel Heatter, the nationally recognized
radio broadcaster, provided the forum for the
first national exposure received by Alcoholics
Anonymous, April 25, 1939. Heatter's nightly
"We The People" radio broadcast was a tremend-
ously popular program listened to by millions
of people nationwide. Heatter was known for
his trademark line, "Ah, there's good news
tonight!" Little did he know how good that news
was to become to suffering alcoholics worldwide.

Morgan R., the AA member who spoke on the
program, was a former ad man. The broadcast
was expected to launch sales of the newly
published book, Alcoholics Anonymous. The
story of Morgan's three day "captivity" to
prevent him from drinking before the broadcast,
and the resulting two Big Book sales are
described in Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of
Age on pages 174-175.

"WE THE PEOPLE"

HEATTER:

The man beside me now has had one of the most
gripping and dramatic experiences I've ever
heard. I'm not going to tell you his name.
And when you hear what he has to say I think
you'll understand why. But after checking the
facts the Listeners Committee of "We The
People" decided to grant him time because
they feel that if one person is helped by
hearing his story, then WE THE PEOPLE will
have done a real service. Alright, sir.

ANONYMOUS GUEST:

Six months ago I got out of an insane asylum.
I'd been sent there because I was drinking
myself to death. But the doctors said they
could do nothing for me. And only four years
ago I was making 20,000 dollars a year. I was
married to a swell girl and had a young son.
But I worked hard and like lots of my friends -
I used to drink to relax. Only they knew when
to stop. I didn't. And pretty soon - I drank
myself out of my job. I promised my wife I'd
straighten out. But I couldn't. Finally she
took the baby and left me.

The next year was like a nightmare. I was
penniless. I went out on the streets -
panhandled money for liquor. Every time I
sobered up - I swore not to touch another drop.
But if I went a few hours without a drink -
I'd begin to cry like a baby, and tremble
all over. One day after I left the asylum I
met a friend of mine. He took me to the home
of one of his friends. A bunch of men were
sitting around, smoking cigars, telling jokes
- having a great time. But I noticed they
weren't drinking. When Tom told me they'd all
been in the same boat as I was - I couldn't
believe him. But he said, "See that fellow?
He's a doctor. Drank himself out of his
practice. Then he straightened out. Now he's
head of a big hospital." Another big strapping
fellow was a grocery clerk. Another the vice
president of a big corporation. They got
together five years ago. Called themselves
Alcoholics Anonymous. And they'd worked out
a method of recovery. One of their most
important secrets was - helping the other
fellow. Once they began to follow it the
method proved successful and helped others get
on their feet - they found they could stay
away from liquor.

Gradually - those men helped me back to life.
I stopped drinking. Found courage to face life
once again. Today I've got a job - and I'm
going to climb back to success. Recently we
wrote a book called "Alcoholics Anonymous".
It tells precisely how we all came back from
a living death. Working on that book made me
realize how much other people had suffered -
how they'd gone through the same thing I did.
That's why I wanted to come on this program.
I wanted to tell people who are going through
that torment - if they sincerely want to,
they can come back. Take their place in
society once again!

(APPLAUSE)
(MUSIC)

This broadcast was made at a time when A.A. and
the Big Book effort was $10,000 in debt, with
only $500 left in the bank...

Morgan Ryan, the good-looking Irishman who had
taken the book to the Catholic Committee on
Publication, had been a good ad man. He said
that he knew Gabriel Heatter. "Gabriel is
putting on these 3 minute heart-to-heart
programs on the radio. I'll get an interview
with him and maybe he'll interview me on the
radio about all this."

And the REST OF THE STORY is history in "AA
History And How The Big Book Was Put Together"
- A Talk By Bill Wilson - Fort Worth, Texas -
1954

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++++Message 5054. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Early four step AA program ???
From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/4/2008 7:53:00 AM

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<most of message snipped>
>
> There is also a mention of "four steps" in
> Message #2788 from <tcumming@...>
> (tcumming at nc.rr.com), where it says:
>
> From the end of a 1st edition of the Big Book
> story titled THE CAR SMASHER, page 369:
>
> "There are, it seems to me, four steps to be
> taken by one who is a victim of alcoholism.
> First: Have a real desire to quit.
> Second: Admit you can't. (This is hardest.)
> Third: Ask for His ever present help.
> Fourth: Accept and acknowledge this help."
>
> [That mans story is also on pg 193 of 2nd &
> 3rd ed, but it was rewritten and renamed to
> He Had to Be Shown, and does not have the 4
> Steps.]
>
These are quite close to the 5 C's of the
Oxford Group, so it would make sense that they
might have been used by the "alcohol squad."
Keep in mind that the 5 C's were steps
suggested for the life-changer to follow, the
person who is trying to lead someone else to
become a "changed" person. "Changed" roughly
correlates with AA's "sobriety," and except
for the fact that the alcoholic version was
directed to the alcoholic himself, the
correlation is pretty good. Here they are.
I'll stick with the male pronoun, it's easier
and closer to the original:

The first C was "Confidence," developing the
person's trust in the life-changer. This of
course would not apply if the steps were
expressed as something done directly by the
person who needed to change.

The second was "Confession," not to be confused
with the more elaborate confession of a
practicing grouper. In the context of the
5 C's, confession meant getting the person to
admit that there was something he felt bad
about. In practice, this could be something
major but often was something minor--anything
would do.

The third, "Conviction" (of sin), meant
bringing the person to the realization that
what he felt bad about was truly in the nature
of sin, not just a bad habit but a spiritual
problem.

The fourth, "Conversion," was the actual
surrender and acceptance of God's help.

The fifth C, "Continuance." involved guidance,
prayer, group and individual confession, etc.
as practiced by the OG.

The steps listed by the author of The Car
Smasher follow the pattern of the five C's,
without the "Confidence" step: 1) Admission
of a problem, 2) Acceptance that it is not
under one's control, 3) Surrender, 4) Followup.

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++++Message 5055. . . . . . . . . . . . Which 1st ed. Big Book stories were
ghostwritten?
From: Edie Stanger . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/8/2008 12:34:00 PM

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I just read in the justloveaudio.com
transcription:

"Meanwhile, we set drunks up to write their
stories or we had newspaper people to write
the stories for them to go in the back of
the book."

Does anyone know which stories were ghost-
written? Has there been a previous thread
on the subject?

Edie S.

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++++Message 5056. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Anonymity statement
From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/7/2008 3:51:00 AM

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The words "Who you see here, what you hear
here, when you leave here, let it stay here"
are printed on a yellow card issued by the UK
General Service office in York. The card
appears on tables at AA grops all over the
UK, and when winding up meetings secretaries
often say, "Please remember the Yellow Card
(reciting the words). Let's make this a safe
place to share."

Travers C., Bristol AA old-timer, thought the
message was somewhat sanctimonious. I recall
him saying, "If we mean, 'Don't gossip,' why
not say so."

- - - -

From: Jon Markle <serenitylodge@bellsouth.net>
(serenitylodge at bellsouth.net)

It's not a far stretch . . . using monkeys . . .
Alcohol made monkeys out of most of us. And
when we got sober, we "got the monkey off our
backs" . . .

- - - -

From: "Bob McK." <bobnotgod2@att.net>
(bobnotgod2 at att.net)

Interestingly, the three monkeys ("hear no
evil, see no evil, speak no evil") date back
to Japan in the 1600s and possibly before.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_wise_monkeys

[The three monkeys are Mizaru, covering his
eyes, who sees no evil; Kikazaru, covering
his ears, who hears no evil; and Iwazaru,
covering his mouth, who speaks no evil.]

- - - -

From: charles Knapp <cdknapp@pacbell.net>
(cdknapp at pacbell.net)

Hello again,

Yes here is another site that mentions the
slogan. It is about half way in the article.

http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2005/Aug-06-Sat-2005/news/26902506.ht
ml

The History Channel did a special on Oak Ridge
and I saved a video clip from the show about
this slogan. I will see if I can find it in
one of my computers and post it online. If I
do I will post a link in History Lovers.

Charles from California

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++++Message 5057. . . . . . . . . . . . fabric of AA Big Books
From: shakey1aa . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/12/2008 10:38:00 PM

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Does any one know the composition or type of
fabrics used in the 4 editions of the Big Book?

Shakey Mike Gwirtz
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA

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++++Message 5058. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill W. in Towns Hospital 3 or 4
times?
From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/12/2008 11:40:00 AM

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It seems as though there is some confusion
based on my study of the literature and other
biographies of Bill.

Can someone answer definitively how many times
and when was Bill hospitalized at Towns?

Was it three times or four times?

Thanks

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++++Message 5059. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Anonymity statement
From: PR_Magoo . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/10/2008 12:07:00 PM

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I found an Oak Ridge web site that had a
picture of an old billboard sign from the
early 1940's that gave the early atomic
research facility version of what later
became the AA and Al-Anon slogan, with a
picture of the three monkeys on it:

What you see here,
What you do here,
What you hear here,
When you leave here,
Let it stay here.

http://oakridgevisitor.com/history/SecretTown-security.html

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++++Message 5060. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill Wilson''s morning
prayer---Stepping Stones
From: pauguspass . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/11/2008 1:35:00 PM

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Had a wonderful visit at Stepping Stones last
Friday and made part of the picnic on Saturday.
It's a tremendously moving place to visit.

There was a wonderful prayer typed out and
lying on the bed in the upstairs bedroom. It
was said to be a prayer Bill used in the
mornings. I didn't transcribe it because I
figured I could find it. But either I'm not
looking at the right things, or it's not
readily available.

Does anyone have this prayer or can you point
to where it may be? And what source suggests
it was his morning prayer?

Thanks.

George Cleveland

- - - -

From the moderator (Glenn C., South Bend):

The following prayer appears at
http://hindsfoot.org/funeral1.html

Was this the one you were looking for? It
comes from Pass It On, page 265.

BILL & LOIS'S PRAYER

Oh Lord, we thank Thee that Thou art,
that we are from everlasting to everlasting.

Blessed be Thy holy name and all Thy benefactions
to us of light, of love, and of service.
May we find and do Thy will
in good strength, in good cheer today.

May Thy ever-present grace be discovered
by family and friends
-- those here and those beyond --
by our Societies throughout the world,
by men and women everywhere,
and among those who must lead
in these troubled times.

Oh Lord, we know Thee to be all wonder,
all beauty, all glory, all power, all love.
Indeed, Thou art everlasting love.

Accordingly, Thou has fashioned for us
a destiny passing through Thy many mansions,
ever in more discovery of Thee
and in no separation between ourselves.

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++++Message 5061. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Bill W. in Towns Hospital 3 or 4
times?
From: Chris Budnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/13/2008 11:57:00 PM

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I had gone back and forth on this issue also.

Pass It On indicates four admissions:

p. 100 "In the autumn of 1933, when Bill found
himself in Towns Hospital for the first time."

p. 106 "Bill wound up in Towns for a second
time."

p. 108 "By midsummer 1934, he was back in
Towns."

p. 119 - 120 These pages describe Bill's
return to Towns Hospital on December 11, 1934.

I don't have Robert Thomsen's book in front
of me, but I have a notation to myself to see
page 174.

I think what finally swayed me is listening
to Bill's talk on the day that Dr. Bob died
(11/16/1950). 4 minutes and 45 seconds into
the recording Bill states "This was my fourth
visit, third time this year." However, I
think he misspeaks here because he is talking
his admission where Dr. Silkworth suggested to
Lois that he commit Bill to the Rockland State
Hospital. But the fact that he says "fourth
visit" leads me to believe that his how many
admissions he had.

Also see previous posts: #3330 and #4224

I'm sure other people have studied this and
could share input as well.

Chris

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++++Message 5062. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Bill Wilson''s morning
prayer---Stepping Stones
From: Russ Stewart . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/13/2008 11:36:00 PM

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"Pass It On" pages 264 & 265
<<During the days of the Oxford Group meetings,
Bill and Lois Wilson had started the practice
of holding a "quiet time" each morning ....
Lois described these quiet times: "They'd
last 15 minutes or so. We were in bed and
we'd get up and I'd make coffee and we'd have
coffee in bed, and then we'd say a prayer
together .... This is the prayer composed by
Bill and recited by the Wilson's at these
times:

"Oh Lord, we thank Thee that Thou art, that
we are from everlasting to everlasting.
Blessed be Thy holy name and all Thy bene-
factions to us of light, and of service.
May we find and do Thy will in good strength,
in good cheer today. May Thy ever-present
grace be discovered by family and friends --
those here and those beyond -- by our
Societies throughout the world, by men and
women everywhere, and among those who must
lead in these troubled times. Oh Lord, we
know Thee to be all wonder, all beauty, all
glory, all power, all love. Indeed, Thou
are everlasting love. Accordingly, Thou has
fashioned for us a destiny passing through
Thy many mansions, ever in more discovery of
Thee and in no separation between ourselves.">>

"Pass It On," page 274 note 2:
<<Lois, who remained deeply in love with Bill
for her entire adult life, said, years after
his death: "That business about no separation
between ourselves is something that I cherish.">>

- - - -

Original message no. 5060 was from
George Cleveland <pauguspass@yahoo.com>
(pauguspass at yahoo.com)

Had a wonderful visit at Stepping Stones last
Friday .... There was a wonderful prayer typed
out and lying on the bed in the upstairs
bedroom. It was said to be a prayer Bill used
in the mornings .... what source suggests
it was his morning prayer?

- - - -

ANY ECHOES HERE OF SWEDENBORGIAN LITURGY?

From: Baileygc23@aol.com
(Baileygc23 at aol.com)

Has this prayer anything to do with
Swedenborgianism?

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++++Message 5063. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill Wilson''s morning
prayer---Stepping Stones
From: george cleveland . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/15/2008 12:29:00 PM

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While this is a fabulous prayer, it's not as
I recall. What stood out about the prayer I
saw at Stepping Stones was the term "Father of
Lights". Which is not to say that a word or
two may have changed. The tone is very similar.

I've written to Stepping Stones and asked them
if there is a copy.

THANK YOU, as always.

George

- - - -

Message #5060

The prayer given in Pass It On, page 265:

BILL & LOIS'S PRAYER

Oh Lord, we thank Thee that Thou art,
that we are from everlasting to everlasting.

Blessed be Thy holy name and all Thy benefactions
to us of light, of love, and of service.
May we find and do Thy will
in good strength, in good cheer today.

May Thy ever-present grace be discovered
by family and friends
-- those here and those beyond --
by our Societies throughout the world,
by men and women everywhere,
and among those who must lead
in these troubled times.

Oh Lord, we know Thee to be all wonder,
all beauty, all glory, all power, all love.
Indeed, Thou art everlasting love.

Accordingly, Thou has fashioned for us
a destiny passing through Thy many mansions,
ever in more discovery of Thee
and in no separation between ourselves.

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++++Message 5064. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Anonymity statement
From: Hugh M . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/14/2008 2:28:00 AM

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A few months ago, the local R.C.M.P. entered
the Hells Angels clubhouse in Nanaimo, British
Columbia with a search warrant. In a report,
the police told of finding a sign bearing that
slogan in one of the rooms. It is obvious that
we have no corner on the concept.

Unless some Al-Anon group might have been
meeting in the biker facility :-)

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++++Message 5065. . . . . . . . . . . . Sources that help put the Big Book
together
From: juan.aa98 . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/11/2008 7:21:00 PM

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Allen, James - As A Man Thinketh

Baylor, Courtenay - Remaking a Man

Begbie, Harold - Twice-Born Men, 1909

Begbie, Harold - Souls in Action, 1911

Begbie, Harold - The Ordinary Man, 1915

Bible:
The Sermon on the Mount
The Lord's Prayer
The Book of James
The 13th Chapter of First Corinthians

Browne, Lewis - This Believing World

Browne, Lewis - The Conversion Experience

Chambers, O. - My Utmost For His Highest

Clark, Glenn - Will Lift Up Mine Eyes

Drummond, Henry - The Greatest Thing in the World

Fox, Emmet - The Sermon on the Mount

Freud, Sigmund - A General Introduction to Psychoanalysis

James, William - The Varieties of Religious Experience

Kitchen, V.C. - I Was a Pagan

Peabody, R.R. - The Common Sense of Drinking

Russell, A.J. - For Sinners Only

Troward, Thomas - The Edinburgh Lectures on Mental Science

The Upper Room - a Methodist periodical

Walter, H.A. - Soul Surgery

This is the list that was provided for me
from A.A. Archives. Anyone know of more
books? Where else can I look?

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++++Message 5066. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Bill W. in Towns Hospital 3 or 4
times?
From: Arthur Sheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/16/2008 11:33:00 AM

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Good research Chris

From what I've gleaned from past research and
recorded in a timeline history document, Bill W
had 4 admissions to Towns Hospital. Info and
source references are below:

AACOA - AA Comes of Age, AAWS
BW-40 - Bill W My First 40 Years, autobiography
BW-FH - Bill W by Francis Hartigan
BW-RT - Bill W by Robert Thomsen
GB - Getting Better Inside AA by Nan Robertson
LOH - Language of the Heart, AA Grapevine
LR - Lois Remembers, by Lois Wilson
NG - Not God, by Ernest Kurtz
NW - New Wine, by Mel B
PIO - Pass It On, AAWS
RAA - The Roots of AA, by Bill Pittman

1933 Autumn, Bill W was quite literally
drinking himself to death. In desperation,
his wife Lois, now earning $22.50 a week at
Macy's ($350 today) turned to her brother-
in-law Dr Leonard V Strong, who arranged and
paid for, Bill W's first admission to Towns
Hospital. Bill was subjected to the "belladonna
cure." The regimen primarily involved "purging
and puking" aided by, among other things,
castor oil. Belladonna, a hallucinogen, was
used to ease the symptoms of alcohol withdrawal.
Dr Strong was married to Bill's sister Dorothy.
(PIO 98-101, LR 85, BW-40 104, NG 14-15, 310,
BW-FH 50, BW-RT 174)

1934 July (?), Bill W's second admission to
Towns Hospital (again paid by Dr Leonard V
Strong). Bill met Dr Silkworth for the first
time. Silkworth explained the obsession and
allergy of alcoholism but Bill started drinking
again almost immediately upon discharge. Bill
was unemployable, $50,000 in debt ($757,000
today) suicidal and drinking around the clock.
(AACOA 52, PIO 106-108, BW-40 114-117, NG 15,
310, BW-FH 50-55)

1934 September 17, Bill W's third admission
to Towns Hospital (again paid by Dr Leonard V.
Strong). Dr Silkworth pronounced Bill as
hopeless and informed Lois that Bill would
likely have to be committed. Bill left the
hospital a deeply frightened man and sheer
terror kept him sober. He found a little work
on Wall St, which began to restore his badly
shattered confidence. (PIO 106-109, LR 87,
AACOA vii, 56, BW-RT 176-177, NG 15, 310,
BW-FH 4-5, 54-55)

1934 December 11, Bill W (age 39) decided to
go back to Towns Hospital and had his last
drink (four bottles of beer purchased on the
way). He got financial help from his mother,
Emily, for the hospital bill. (AACOA 61-62,
LOH 197, RAA 152, NG 19, 311, NW 23, PIO
119-120, GB 31).

Cheers
Arthur

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++++Message 5067. . . . . . . . . . . . The Talk Bill Gave the Night Dr Bob
Died 11/16/1950
From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/16/2008 9:24:00 AM

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The only recording I know of bearing this
title (or a variant of it) is a reenactment
created by Bill McN, who will btw be present
at the History & Archives Gathering in Lebanon
Pennsylvania on June 21, speaking on
"Dramatizing AA History" -- and as Chris will
be there, and if this is the talk he's referring
to, he'll be able to check Bill's sources
with him.

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++++Message 5068. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Early four step AA program ???
From: terry walton . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/17/2008 8:36:00 AM

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From "terry walton" <twalton@3gcinc.com>
(twalton at 3gcinc.com)

The Four steps to be taken?

> From the end of a 1st edition of the Big Book
> story titled THE CAR SMASHER, page 369:
>
> "There are, it seems to me, four steps to be
> taken by one who is a victim of alcoholism.
> First: Have a real desire to quit.
> Second: Admit you can't. (This is hardest.)
> Third: Ask for His ever present help.
> Fourth: Accept and acknowledge this help."
>
> [That man's story is also on pg 193 of 2nd &
> 3rd ed, but it was rewritten and renamed to
> He Had to Be Shown, and does not have the 4
> Steps.]

I believe we have the precursor to these four
items in the story of AA Number 3 (2nd, 3rd,
and 4th edits.).

Bill W. and Dr. Bob ask Bill D. the same four
questions. I added the numbers for clarity's
sake. In Bill D's story they were not
referred to as "steps," simply questions.
To me the word "steps" seems to imply a bigger
or larger than life search as in searching
for the holy grail of "who started the term
"steps?"

I would see their "steps" as a list of actions
which they performed: "the next action is ..."
"we took action" etc. "the directions of the
actions are ..."

[1] They said to me, "Do you want to quit
drinking?

[2] The next thing they wanted to know was
if I thought I could quit of my own accord,
without any help, if I could just walk out
of the hospital and never take another drink.

[3] The next question, they wanted to know
was if I believed in a Higher Power.

[4] The next thing they wanted to know was
would I be willing to go to this Higher Power
and ask for help, calmly and without any
reservations.

- - - -

From: <rajiv.BeHappy@gmail.com>
(rajiv.BeHappy at gmail.com)

The book "What is the Oxford Group"
http://www.silkworth.net/aahistory/what-is-the-oxford-group.pdf
says the order is Sharing, Surrender,
Restitution and Guidance. This is in accordance
with the 5Cs in the book Soul Surgery, since
Confidence and Confession are the Sharing step.

Conviction is Surrender, where after the
self-realization that comes from the sharing,
one decides to surrender one's sins, which
ultimately is one's self-centeredness
(according to the book).

This view of Surrender coming AFTER the Sharing
Step seems to have been followed in the program
at St. Thomas Hospital in Akron, Ohio. In a
paper published by Sr. Ignatia in 1951 about
their 5-Day hospital program, she writes that
Day 3 was the day of inventory, where the alky
admits to God, himself, & another all his
problems. After that she writes: "With self
knowledge, he is asked to admit the truth:
'I am an alcoholic.'" (See the article by Mary
C Darrah in Employee Assistance Quarterly,
Vol 1, No.1 Fall 1985)

Is this a claim that the 1st Step (Surrender)
COMES AFTER the 5th Step (Sharing) instead of
PRECEDING it?

Thanks for your help.

Much Love

Rajiv

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++++Message 5069. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill Wilson''s morning
prayer---Stepping Stones
From: John Lee . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/17/2008 1:33:00 PM

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"Father of Light" is found on page 14 of
"Bill's Story," Chapter 1 of Big Book. It's
a misquote from the Epistle of St. James 1:17,
which refers to the "Father of Lights."

The reference to "many mansions" likely came
from John 14:2, "in my Father's house are
many mansions."

Bill used the "many mansions" language often.

john lee
pittsburgh

- - - -

From: george cleveland <pauguspass@yahoo.com>
(pauguspass at yahoo.com)

While this is a fabulous prayer, it's not as
I recall. What stood out about the prayer I
saw at Stepping Stones was the term "Father of
Lights".

- - - -

Message #5060

The prayer given in Pass It On, page 265:

BILL AND LOIS'S PRAYER

Oh Lord, we thank Thee that Thou art,
that we are from everlasting to everlasting.

Blessed be Thy holy name and all Thy benefactions
to us of light, of love, and of service.
May we find and do Thy will
in good strength, in good cheer today.

May Thy ever-present grace be discovered
by family and friends
-- those here and those beyond --
by our Societies throughout the world,
by men and women everywhere,
and among those who must lead
in these troubled times.

Oh Lord, we know Thee to be all wonder,
all beauty, all glory, all power, all love.
Indeed, Thou art everlasting love.

Accordingly, Thou has fashioned for us
a destiny passing through Thy many mansions,
ever in more discovery of Thee
and in no separation between ourselves.

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++++Message 5070. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The Talk Bill Gave the Night Dr
Bob Died 11/16/1950
From: david l . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/18/2008 1:37:00 PM

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I have a CD given to me by my sponsor of
Bill's talk the night Dr. Bob died.

My email address is: <heart943@yahoo.com>
(heart943 at yahoo.com)

- - - -

From: "Jim S." <james.scarpine@verizon.net>
(james.scarpine at verizon.net)

See messages #654,#655,656 and 743. The last
is the actor's "disclaimer," justifying his
fictionalization of AA's history.

Jim S.

- - - -

jlobdell54 <jlobdell54@hotmail.com> wrote:

The only recording I know of bearing this
title (or a variant of it) is a reenactment
created by Bill McN, who will btw be present
at the History & Archives Gathering in Lebanon
Pennsylvania on June 21, speaking on
"Dramatizing AA History" -- and as Chris will
be there, and if this is the talk he's referring
to, he'll be able to check Bill's sources
with him.

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++++Message 5071. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The Talk Bill Gave the Night Dr
Bob Died 11/16/1950
From: Jim Hoffman . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/20/2008 11:05:00 PM

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Hi,

My wife and I run a recording business here
in Largo, Fl (between Clearwater and St. Pete).

We often get someone asking us if we heard
about a CD or tape of a talk Bill made at the
Kip's Bay Group on the night Dr. Bob died.
Lots of times they will have the tape or CD
with them and wish to share it with us.

We always feel a little bad when we have to
tell them it is an actor and it is just a play
he has written and performed. Usually we will
play a real recording of Bill and the person
will hear right away that the voices are
different.

We have never heard a real recording of Bill
speaking on the night Dr. Bob died. The easiest
way to check would be to compare the voice
against a CD you know is one of Bill. GSO makes
a copy of Bill talking about the Traditions
and you should be able to pick one up at your
Intergroup Office.

Good Luck

Jim Hoffman
Vision Audio

727/539/0101 (Office)

727/581/3293 (Home)

727/251/3188 (Cell)

visionaudio@verizon.net

Jhoffma6@tampabay.rr.com
(Jhoffma6 at tampabay.rr.com)

- - - -

Original message from: david l
<heart943@yahoo.com>
(heart943 at yahoo.com)

I have a CD given to me by my sponsor of
Bill's talk the night Dr. Bob died.

My email address is: <heart943@yahoo.com>
(heart943 at yahoo.com)

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++++Message 5072. . . . . . . . . . . . 14th printing circus jacket
From: Lee Nickerson . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/22/2008 11:54:00 AM

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Does an original circus jacket for the 14th
printing say "14th printing" on it?

Was the publisher at that time (1951) Works
Publishing or Alcoholics Anonymous Publishing
Inc.?


I know that they are printing reproductions
and I want to know if my jacket is original?
It clearly looks old although in good
condition???

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++++Message 5073. . . . . . . . . . . . Recordings of Dr. Bob speaking?
From: Li Lightfoot . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/22/2008 8:06:00 PM

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Does anyone know if there are any recordings
of Dr. Bob available to the public?

Thanks,

Li

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++++Message 5074. . . . . . . . . . . . The shift from "Works Publishing" to
"AA Publishing"
From: Arthur Sheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/22/2008 8:21:00 PM

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Hi Lee

The name change from "Works Publishing, Inc"
to "Alcoholics Anonymous Publishing, Inc"
occurred in 1953.

The 12&12 was the first book distributed under
the new publishing name.

Cheers
Arthur

- - - -

From: Hal Lackey <mudshark6178@yahoo.com>
(mudshark6178 at yahoo.com)

Can't say about the dustcover. My 14th
printing says Works Publishing.

- - - -

ORIGINAL MESSAGE from: "Lee Nickerson"
<snowlily@megalink.net> (snowlily at megalink.net)

14th PRINTING CIRCUS JACKET

Was the publisher at that time (1951) Works
Publishing or Alcoholics Anonymous Publishing
Inc.?

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++++Message 5075. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 14th printing circus jacket
From: schaberg43 . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/23/2008 8:40:00 AM

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The dust jacket for the 14th printing of
the 1st edition reads: "Fourteenth Printing"
on lower half of the spine of the dust
jacket. Reproductions typically duplicate
this accurately.

The 14th printing was published by Works
Publishing Inc.

Old Bill

- - - -

From: Tom Hickcox <cometkazie1@cox.net>
(cometkazie1 at cox.net)

Others may be in a better position to answer
this question than I, but here goes.

I don't have a 14th printing but I do have
a 13th with an original DJ backed up by a
facsimile.

There are two differences that jump out at me.
"Thirteenth Printing" is printed at the top
of the front flap of the original but is
missing from the facsimile. The red dot on
the spine of the original seems to be smaller
than that on the facsimile.

It seems to me that the font used for the
facsimile has "fatter" letters than the
original, but that may be my imagination
at work.

There may be other differences, but I will
leave it to the more observant to point them
out.

I have facsimile DJs on my other three First
Editions. None of them have the printing
number on the front flap.

I hope this helps.

Tommy in Baton Rouge

P.S. After writing this, I came across a
listing for a 1/16th which showed the DJ and
it has the printing number on the front flap.

There is a 1st/16th listed on eBay, item
#300234353426. It has an original DJ and
shows "Sixteenth Printing" on the front flap.
Another suggestion that inclusion of the
printing number in this location is an indi-
cation that the DJ is original and not a
facsimile.

Tommy

- - - -

From: DudleyDobinson@aol.com
(DudleyDobinson at aol.com)

Hi Lee,

The publisher of the 14th was Works Publishing
and the DJ should say the same and have 14th
on the spine and on the top of the front fly
page.

You can tell the replicas because they usually
have a lighter yellow and the printing # on
the spine only. This apart from apparent
less wear and tear.

I have a 4th,6th ,15th & 16th with originals,
my other ones have replicas.

Regards Dudley

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++++Message 5076. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The shift from "Works
Publishing" to "AA Publishing"
From: srgntbilko . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/22/2008 3:20:00 PM

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My 11th printing of the Big Book says copyright
by Works -- at the bottom of the page it says
"By the Cornwall Press Inc. Cornwall, NY --
Printed in the United States of America."

I don't know the business so I don't know what
that all means.

Sarge

- - - -

From the moderator: Cornwall Press was the
printer; they were the ones who actually
printed the books on their printing presses.

See Messages 5016, 4802, 4295, 4291, 3937,
3677, 3617, 3292, 3207, 3117, etc.

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

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++++Message 5077. . . . . . . . . . . . 100th Anniversary of Buchmans
awakening
From: jays5279 . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/25/2008 2:06:00 AM

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Today (this Friday, June 27, 2008) it is
100 years.

Jay Stinnett
310/874/2341

- - - -

The Apology That Launched a Million Amends

June 27th, 2008, will mark the 100th
anniversary of Frank Buchman's Spiritual
Awakening – one that directly linked him
to the cofounders of AA

He gave everything he had to establishing a
shelter for homeless boys in the slums of
Philadelphia. The shelters success surpassed
his budget and the six-member board of
directors insisted that he cut the amount of
food being given to his charges. He quit
instead of cutting back. Resentment consumed
him. His family despaired that he might not
come to his senses. His work was destroyed by
what he saw as the shortsightedness of others.
His health was well past the breaking point.

"Everywhere I went, I took me with me," he
later said. During a trip to recuperate in
Europe, he exhausted the funds his father gave
him and existed on the kindness of his family
and the generosity of acquaintances. Tired and
dejected he went to an Evangelical Conference
in Keswick, England, hoping to connect with
F.B. Meyer, a famous minister he knew, for
spiritual help. Meyer was not in attendance;
another plan gone awry.

June 27, 1908, thirty year-old Frank Buchman,
a Pennsylvanian Lutheran minister, walked into
an afternoon service with 17 other people to
hear Jessie Penn Lewis preach on the cross of
Christ. And then it happened.

As Buchman sat in that Chapel, "There was a
moment of spiritual peak of what God could do
for me. I was made a new man. My hatred was
gone ... I knew I had to write six letters to
those men I hated."

"I am writing," declared Buchman, "to tell you
that I have harbored an unkind feeling toward
you -- at times I conquered it but it always
came back. Our views may differ but as
brothers we must love. I write to ask your
forgiveness and to assure that I love you and
trust by God's grace I shall never more speak
unkindly or disparagingly of you."

Those letters of amends spawned a revolution
in Frank Buchman, a revolution that led to the
birth of Alcoholics Anonymous.

That evening, Frank was introduced to a young
Cambridge man, who upon hearing Buchman's tale
of moral regeneration made a decision to change
his own life. As Buchman described it, "This
was the first fellow who I knew that I had
ever brought face to face with that central
experience." For the next half century Buchman
dedicated his life to demonstrating that an
experience of God was available to anyone at
any time, regardless of race, religion, class
or nationality.

From England, Frank returned to the United
States where he went to work as the YMCA
director at Penn State University. There he
had a profound effect on campus life, due in
part to the conversion of the campus bootlegger,
who during a trip to Toronto with Frank and a
group of students from Penn State, made a
decision to change his life. After having Frank
help him by writing an amends letter to his
wife, the bootlegger never drank again and
went around the world with Frank talking about
his change.

Frank Buchman described the four years that he
spent at Penn State as the laboratory in which
he developed a practical program of action and
learned how to have honest conversations that
led people to make decisions to change their
lives.

The formula he developed was:

1. The sharing of our sins and temptations
with another Christian life given to God, and
to use sharing as witness to help others, still
unchanged, to recognize and acknowledge their
sins.

2. Surrender of our life, past, present, and
future, into God's keeping and direction.

3. Restitution to all whom we have wronged
directly or indirectly.

4. Listening to, accepting, relying on God's
guidance and carrying it out in everything we
do or say, great or small.

Sound familiar?

The application of this course of action
revolutionized the spiritual life of the
campus, and its success brought Christian
evangelists from all over the world to find
out what was happening on a backwater
campus that had been paralyzed by strife.

After Penn State, Frank went to China in 1917
where an honest conversation with a young
Sam Shoemaker helped Sam to tell him, "I have
been a pious fraud, pretending to serve God
but actually keeping all the trump cards in
my own hands. Now I've told Him how sorry I am,
and I trust you'll forgive me for harboring
ill will against you. This sprang up the moment
you used that word sin!"

Buchman said that he freely forgave him. "Now
what's the next step?" Shoemaker asked. The
next step was making amends to Sam's Bible
study class. The trouble was, Shoemaker told
his Chinese students, he disliked China. That
admission produced such a profound spiritual
experience in Shoemaker that it led to his
working closely with Buchman for the next
twenty-one years and brought the revolution
of "First Century Christianity" (later known
as the Oxford Group) to people worldwide.

The message of personal revolution was
transmitted by one "informed Christian" sharing
with another and by inviting people to "house
parties." If you have ever attended an AA
convention or round up you have experienced an
Oxford Group house party. Speakers were brought
in from a variety of places to share their
experience, strength and hope in both large
speaker meetings and small special interest
meetings. Men would tell their stories in
men's meetings; women in women's; there were
even forums for drug addicts, overeaters, and
drunks. At these gatherings, both speakers
and experienced members would be available
for "personal interviews" where sharing and
surrender could take place. Then people would
be encouraged to make restitution and have a
daily "quiet time" to receive inspiration on
how to conduct their lives.

When he was pressed for a definition of sin,
Buchman said, "What is a sin for one person may
not be a sin for another. The true definition
of sin is that it is something that separates
you from God or from your fellows."

In 1922, Jim Newton, a young salesman with a
taste for fast living, followed a group of
attractive young women into a hotel ballroom
thinking they were going to a dance. To his
dismay he found himself in an Oxford Group
house party at the Toy Town Tavern in
Winchengton, Massachusetts, where he heard
a message that changed his life. Buchman
referred Newton to Shoemaker who helped Newton
take stock of his life, surrender, make
restitution, and start to live a "guided life."
If you wish to know the Oxford Group technique
of guidance read pages 85-87 in the book
Alcoholics Anonymous.

A few years later, Jim Newton was trying to
help Bud F., the alcoholic son of his employer,
Harvey F., to change. Unable to help his
friend, Jim introduced Bud to his mentor,
Samuel Shoemaker. Sam, who had a remarkable
gift bringing people to make a decision, went
through the process with Bud who immediately
lost his obsession to drink, made amends to
his father and wife, and returned to the good
graces of his family.

Harvey F. was so impressed with the change in
his son that he convinced his fellow industri-
alists in Akron, Ohio, to help underwrite an
Oxford Group house party held in January 1933
at the Mayflower Hotel. Buchman and his team
were welcomed by the Rev. Walter Tunks, a
close friend of the F. family; also in
attendance were Henrietta Seiberling and
T. Henry and Clarace Williams who were to
become the founders of the West Hills meeting
of the Oxford Group in Akron.

Also in 1933, Shoemaker's ministry at Calvary
Church in New York City's Gramercy Park was
a hub of Oxford Group activity. There were
Oxford Group meetings held three times a week
at Calvary Church where people shared the
life changes they had discovered from applying
the Oxford Group principles. He also founded
the Calvary Mission, which was a hostel for
indigent alcoholic men.

Many important families had ties to this
Calvary Church, among them the H. family whose
eldest son Rowland was described by Bill W.
as "a business man who had ability, good
sense and high character ... who had
floundered from one sanitarium to another."
Rowland had returned from Europe after another
attempt to get his life in order after consult-
ing with Dr. Carl Jung. Rowland was drinking
and going to Oxford Group meetings at Calvary
Church. Among the people whom he met at
Calvary was Vic Kitchen, author of I Was a
Pagan (published in 1934), which described
his release from alcoholism, drug addiction,
and "anything that gave me pleasure, power
or applause" in the Oxford Group. While on a
business trip to Detroit, Rowland read the
book, identified at depth, and as Shoemaker
said, "had a change right there on the train."
Rowland stopped drinking, reconciled with
his family, made restitution for questionable
business dealings, became active with the
Oxford Group businessmen's team, spoke at
meetings and encouraged others to find what
he had found.

One of the many people Rowland touched was an
old childhood friend, Edwin 'Ebby' T., who was
about to be locked up as a chronic inebriate.
Rowland, whose alcohol problem was well known,
convinced the judge to release Ebby into his
care. Two weeks later, Ebby was speaking at
Oxford Group meetings around Vermont, and after
a couple of weeks with Rowland (who had all of
six months in the group), the freshly sober
Ebby moved into Calvary Mission in New York
City and became active there.

Sober six weeks, Ebby was inspired to find
another old school friend, Bill W., who was
known to be in awful shape. Bill could not get
the change in Ebby out of his mind for he knew
his friend was a hopeless drunk like himself,
yet was sober. A few days after that, Bill
went to see Ebby at the Calvary Mission, gave
an impassioned, albeit drunken testimony from
the podium and soon after landed in Townes
Hospital. Ebby visited him there and
reacquainted Bill with the steps of the
Oxford Group whereupon Bill had his profound
white light experience, lost his compulsion to
drink and was seized with a desire to pass on
his experience to others.

When Bill was released, he and Lois immediately
started attending Oxford Group meetings at
Calvary Church and had frequent contact with
Sam Shoemaker. Lois said that they went to a
minimum of three meetings a week and attended
house parties during the first three years of
Bill's sobriety.

Six months after sobering up, Bill went to
Akron, Ohio, on a business venture that failed.
When he found himself about to enter the bar
at the same Mayflower Hotel where the Oxford
Group had met, he started searching for an to
help. That moment of desperation led him to
the Rev. Walter Tunks and ultimately to
Henrietta Seiberling who knew just the man.

A local proctologist, who thought he was a
closet drinker, had been attending the West
Hill Oxford Group meeting for two years with
his wife, his problem becoming progressively
worse. The Doctor later described his
impression of the West Hills Group, "I was
thrown in with a crowd of people ....
I sensed that they had something I did not
have, from which I might readily profit. I
learned that it was something of a spiritual
nature, which did not appeal to me very much,
but I thought it could do no harm."

Bill W. met with Bob S. (lovingly referred to
as Dr. Bob) on Mother's Day 1935. Bob stopped
drinking abruptly. Though he accepted Bill's
description of alcoholism as a fatal illness
and the Oxford Group steps as the solution,
Bob believed that making restitution to those
he had harmed would destroy his practice and
put his family further at risk.

A short time later, Bob drank again and was
completely demoralized. On the way to perform
a surgery, Bill steadied his friend's hand
with a bottle of beer and a "goofball."
Before entering the hospital, Bob told Bill,
"I am going to go through with it." That
afternoon Bob did not return home. His wife,
Anne, and Bill were filled with dread that
Bob had gone on another binge. When Dr. Bob
returned late that night, he told his
frightened loved ones that he had been making
restitution to people to whom he had been
too afraid to admit his alcoholism. Bob S.
never took another drink.

AA's anniversary is not the day Bill W.
stopped drinking, nor the day that he met
Dr. Bob, but the day that Bob stopped
drinking and made his amends.

From 100 years ago in Keswick, to 73 years ago
in Akron, to this very moment; women and men
are proving the validity of their own personal
spiritual awakening by making amends for their
past wrongs, making restitution and rectifying
their errors.

Frank Buchman's metamorphosis was remarkable.
He developed a program for personal change
that affected homes and nations. It is a
practical program of action using the four
standards of absolute honesty, purity,
unselfishness and love. Over the past one
hundred years, Buchman's vision has been
transmitted under different names: First
Century Christian Movement, the Oxford Group,
Moral Re-Armament, and since 2001, Initiatives
of Change, which continues to heal the wounds
of history by building trust across the
world's divides.

Without Frank Buchman, those of us in today's
many anonymous programs would have no 12 steps
and no freedom from bondage. His spiritual
awakening and the action that followed indeed
launched a million amends and produced many
millions of transformed lives.

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++++Message 5078. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The shift from "Works
Publishing" to "AA Publishing"
From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/27/2008 11:40:00 AM

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The Alcoholics Anonymous Publishing Inc.
12 and 12 cost $2.75 according to the (blue)
jacket price and was identified as first
edition d-c and copyright 1952-1953.

There was also a 12 and 12 published by
Harper's with a different colored jacket
(greenish blue) also $2.75. It is first
edition also marked d-c and stated published
by Harper & Brothers, New York by arrangement
with Alcoholics Anonymous Publishing Inc.
It is copyright 1952-1953 by Alcoholics
Anonymous Publishing Inc.

Yours in Service,
Shakey Mike Gwirtz
Phila, Pa.

- - - -

In a message dated 6/27/2008 3:26:32 P.M.
Eastern Daylight Time, ArtSheehan@msn.com writes:

The name change from "Works Publishing, Inc"
to "Alcoholics Anonymous Publishing, Inc"
occurred in 1953.

The 12&12 was the first book distributed under
the new publishing name.

Cheers
Arthur

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++++Message 5079. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Recordings of Dr. Bob speaking?
From: Byron Bateman . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/26/2008 7:08:00 AM

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Li,

There is a cassette tape available from AAWS,
or perhaps, your intergroup office. (Probably
a CD by now) The title is: "Voices of our
Co-Founders." It has both Bill W. and Dr. Bob
on the tape. I have one somewhere and as I
recall it contains two speeches by Dr. Bob,
and three speeches by Bill W.

I can find it and give you specifics if you
would like to email me personally:

"Byron Bateman" <byronbateman@hotmail.com>
(byronbateman at hotmail.com)

It should be widely available through A.A.
sources. The quality of Dr. Bob's speeches
is not very good because the originals were
cut on a wire recorder I was told.

Byron

- - - -

From: barefootbill@optonline.net
(barefootbill at optonline.net)

Please go to http://www.justloveaudio.com
then click on "store"
then click on "Recovery Audio"
then click on "AA"
then do a search by putting in Dr. Bob in the
speaker field.

We have every known talk by Dr. Bob all on
one CD.

Thanks & God bless.

- - - -

From: "jfk92452000" <jfk92452000@yahoo.com>
(jfk92452000 at yahoo.com)

Li, Yes there are several recordings of
Dr. Bob. His last talk at the Cleveland
Convention in 1950 was recorded and is
available from "Nova Tapes by Earl" in
Cross Junction, Virginia. 540/888/4505 or
800/825/0560. I think there is an on-line
site.

These recordings were done originally on spool
and are tough to listen to but the message and
hearing his voice will send chills up your
spine. There are recordings of Bill, Sister
Ignatia , Reverend Sam Shoemaker and Ebby and
many others. They are great because I feel
like I am getting the program right from the
horses mouth. Let me know if you have any
problem contacting Nova.

John F.Kenney

- - - -

From: James Bliss <james.bliss@comcast.net>
(james.bliss at comcast.net)
Mike Barns <mikeb384@verizon.net>
(mikeb384 at verizon.net)
<elg3_79@yahoo.com>
(elg3_79 at yahoo.com)
robin@brieftsf.com
(robin at brieftsf.com)

Go to http://www.xa-speakers.org and search
for Dr. Bob.

There are three recordings of Dr. Bob available
for download or listening at:

http://www.xa-speakers.org/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=326

Jim

- - - -

From: "oldsmokef" <oldsmokef@yahoo.com>
(oldsmokef at yahoo.com)
<elg3_79@yahoo.com>
(elg3_79 at yahoo.com)
Mike Craven <wahoo126@embarqmail.com>
(wahoo126 at embarqmail.com)
Dave <onemoreday214@yahoo.com>
(onemoreday214 at yahoo.com)

Look here:

http://www.aaprimarypurpose.org/speakers.htm

- - - -

From: DudleyDobinson@aol.com

Hi Li,

I have a recording of Bill W. and Dr. Bob
speaking at the "big meeting" in Cleveland
1950. The recording lasts 1.08 hours and is
8.23mb. The format is Real Player and I will
forward it to anyone who wants it.

Olease send your request to my email address:

DudleyDobinson@aol.com
(DudleyDobinson at aol.com)

In fellowship Dudley

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++++Message 5080. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Editors of Second Edition
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/29/2008 9:05:00 PM

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In message 5021, Jared Lobdell
<jlobdell54@hotmail.com> (jlobdell54 at hotmail.com)
commented:

"I'd be interested to know which was the
story Tom included [in the second edition of
the Big Book] that some AAs didn't like (or
whose author they didn't like)."

- - - -

Matt D. <mdingle76@yahoo.com>
(mdingle76 at yahoo.com) responds:

2nd edition story: "New Vision for a Sculptor."
The author's name was Fred (I think) Ginsberg.

Matt D

- - - -

For more about that story, see:

http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/Authors.htm
(http://silkworth.net/aabiography/storyauthors.html)

"New Vision for a Sculptor"
Fred (last name unknown)
New York City
p. 426 in 2nd edition

Glenn C., Moderator

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++++Message 5081. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Editors of Second Edition: New
Vision for a Sculptor
From: Mike Saulle . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/30/2008 12:41:00 AM

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The 2nd edition Big Book story "New Vision
for a Sculptor" can be found in "Experience,
Strength and Hope," the AAWS collection of
all the earlier Big Book stories which are
no longer in the present edition of the Big
Book: see pages 166-178.

- - - -

In message 5021, Jared Lobdell
<jlobdell54@hotmail. com> (jlobdell54 at hotmail.com)
commented:

"I'd be interested to know which was the
story Tom included [in the second edition of
the Big Book] that some AAs didn't like (or
whose author they didn't like)."

- - - -

Matt D. <mdingle76@yahoo. com>
(mdingle76 at yahoo.com) responds:

2nd edition story: "New Vision for a Sculptor."
The author's name was Fred (I think) Ginsberg.

Matt D

- - - -

For more about that story, see:

http://www.a- 1associates. com/aa/Authors. htm
(http://silkworth. net/aabiography/ storyauthors. html)

"New Vision for a Sculptor"
Fred (last name unknown)
New York City
p. 426 in 2nd edition

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++++Message 5082. . . . . . . . . . . . AA History Resource
From: mdingle76 . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/30/2008 10:00:00 AM

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Just want the group to be aware of an AA
history resource — 24 Newsletter. 24 Newsletter
is a current version of the 24 Magazine. 24
Magazine was probably best known for the
article, "Gresham's Law and Alcoholics
Anonymous." The author of this article is
Tom P. Jr. Tom P. Jr. is the publisher of
24 Newsletter and contributes an article
about AA each month.

To view June's 24 Newsletter:
http://www.24-communications.com/062008/062008.pdf

For an example of little bits of AA history
-- in June's newsletter Tom Jr. gives the
name of the hymn Marty Mann used to describe
her spiritual experience to Dr. Tiebout
which was, "Leaning on the Everlasting Arms."

Next month's main article is about Dr. Tom M.
(AA 1939) -- in which Bill W. called, "One
of the greatest stories to come out of AA"
-- and is an actual transcript of Bill
telling about Dr. Tom M. Dr. Tom got the AA
Big Book in 1939 while a patient at
Lexington Hospital for drug addicts. Tom M.
wrote to AA, got sober, started one of the
first groups to communicate with headquarters
by mail, and more.

To sign up for a free version of this
newsletter email:

alladdictsanonymous@gmail.com
(alladdictsanonymous at gmail.com)

Please specify if you would like this
resource mailed to your home (and in such
case give us your mailing address) or if
just the online version. Either way this
resource is free!

Matt D.

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++++Message 5083. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Editors of Second Edition: Fred
G.
From: mdingle76 . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/30/2008 8:52:00 PM

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"New Vision for a Sculptor" was controversial
because Fred Ginsberg didn't get officially
sober in AA —- he was ten years dry when he
hit his first AA meeting.

Matt D.

- - - -

> In message 5021, Jared Lobdell
> <jlobdell54@...> (jlobdell54 at hotmail.com)
> commented:
>
> "I'd be interested to know which was the
> story Tom included [in the second edition of
> the Big Book] that some AAs didn't like (or
> whose author they didn't like)."
>
> - - - -
>
> Matt D. <mdingle76@...>
> (mdingle76 at yahoo.com) responds:
>
> 2nd edition story: "New Vision for a Sculptor."
> The author's name was Fred (I think) Ginsberg.
>
> Matt D
>
> - - - -
>
> For more about that story, see:
>
> http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/Authors.htm
> (http://silkworth.net/aabiography/storyauthors.html)
>
> "New Vision for a Sculptor"
> Fred (last name unknown)
> New York City
> p. 426 in 2nd edition
>
> Glenn C., Moderator
>

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++++Message 5084. . . . . . . . . . . . Spiritual not religious
From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/4/2008 4:44:00 PM

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We frequently hear in the rooms that the AA
program is "spiritual not religious."

I am aware that Bill W. has been quoted as
saying "we are not a religious organization"
and that the Big Book says ... "we have written
a book which we believe to be spiritual as
well as moral."

Does anyone recall seeing in anything in print
attributable to Bill W., the first 100 or in
Conference literature that says "spriritual
not religious"?

Facts only please, no opinions on the topic!

God Bless

John B

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++++Message 5085. . . . . . . . . . . . Fifth steps in early AA
From: Raymond Shepherd . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/5/2008 10:28:00 PM

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What was the procedure for early AA members
to take Step Five? The Big Book, the 12x12,
The Little Red Book all suggest people outside
of AA to hear the fifth step.

Some of my protogees question my use of The
Little Red Book because it tells the reader
'when the right time arrives, arrange an
interview with anyone outside AA who will
be understanding but unaffected by your
narration.'

Does anyone have information regarding hearing
of Fifth steps in early AA prior to 1953?

Ray S.

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++++Message 5086. . . . . . . . . . . . Set A Side Prayer
From: Alan Spencer . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/3/2008 12:39:00 AM

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Some of the Big Book Studies around the country
use a prayer called the set-a-side prayer; does
anyone have the words?

Thanks,
Alan in the Desert

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++++Message 5087. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr. Tom M. (AA 1939)
From: mrpetesplace . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/1/2008 10:33:00 PM

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A man named Dr. Tom M. was referred to in
message 5082: "AA History Resource"
from: <mdingle76@yahoo.com>
(mdingle76 at yahoo.com)
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/5082

That message said:

<<Next month's main article is about Dr. Tom M.
(AA 1939) -- in which Bill W. called, "One
of the greatest stories to come out of AA"
-- and is an actual transcript of Bill
telling about Dr. Tom M.>>

<<Dr. Tom got the AA Big Book in 1939 while
a patient at Lexington Hospital for drug
addicts. Tom M. wrote to AA, got sober,
started one of the first groups to communicate
with headquarters by mail, and more.>>

- - - -

I would like to know if this Dr. Tom M. is
the same person as the man who is associated
with Shelby, North Carolina. That is where AA
started in this state. This man went to
Lexington, Kentucky. I'm fairly sure that this
is the same person.

I would like to get as much info on Dr.
Tom M. as I can. I'm going to be posting local
history for this area soon at http://aastuff.com/

This would be the doctor that Bill talks about
visiting on his trip south and stopped off at
a little town when he closed his talk with the
Yale Summer lectures on Alcoholism.

The other person to spread AA in North Carolina
was mentioned in AA Comes of Age. He had moved
south and started the Charlotte group which
was the second group listed with the Alcoholic
Foundation (as it was called then, now called
the GSO).

Interesting too was when Dr. Tom corresponded
with NY they were already sharing about how
the AA Program could help addicts as well.

Anyway ... thanks to anyone who can provide this
information or transcripts of correspondence.

Peter F., NC

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++++Message 5088. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Set A Side Prayer
From: DalPalGal@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/6/2008 3:26:00 PM

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Here ya go, Alan ... from The 12 Step Prayer
Book:

Lord, today help me set aside everything
I think I know about You

Everything I think I know about myself

Everything I think I know about others and

Everything I think I know about my own
recovery

For a new experience in myself

A new experience in my fellows and my own
recovery.

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++++Message 5089. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The shift from "Works
Publishing" to "AA Publishing"
From: JOHN WIKELIUS . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/27/2008 4:49:00 PM

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A third printing by Harper of the 12&12 ???

- - - -

I have a Harper 12&12 with BK also. I believe
there is a third printing by Harper but I only
saw it one time and did not note the Harper
code for the date of publication. I could kick
myself now.

- - - -

> The Alcoholics Anonymous Publishing Inc.
> 12 and 12 cost $2.75 according to the (blue)
> jacket price and was identified as first
> edition d-c and copyright 1952-1953.
>
> There was also a 12 and 12 published by
> Harper's with a different colored jacket
> (greenish blue) also $2.75. It is first
> edition also marked d-c and stated published
> by Harper & Brothers, New York by arrangement
> with Alcoholics Anonymous Publishing Inc.
> It is copyright 1952-1953 by Alcoholics
> Anonymous Publishing Inc.
>
> Yours in Service,
> Shakey Mike Gwirtz
> Phila, Pa.
>
> - - - -
>
> In a message dated 6/27/2008 3:26:32 P.M.
> Eastern Daylight Time, ArtSheehan@msn.com writes:
>
> The name change from "Works Publishing, Inc"
> to "Alcoholics Anonymous Publishing, Inc"
> occurred in 1953.
>
> The 12&12 was the first book distributed under
> the new publishing name.
>
> Cheers
> Arthur
>
>
>

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++++Message 5090. . . . . . . . . . . . The start of AA in Cuba (Part 1 of
2)
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/6/2008 3:52:00 PM

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From: Bruce Kennedy <BruceKen@aol.com>
(BruceKen at aol.com)

The start of AA in Cuba

Summary: (Hulda Lorente's full recollections
appear as an appendix to this document.)

Deteriorating economic conditions following
the collapse of the Soviet Union had brought
alcoholism and other social problems to a
crisis point in Cuba by 1992. On a visit to
Cuba from Miami, a non-alcoholic Cuban friend
of AA, Hulda Lorente, gained an appointment
with a representative of the Central Committee
of the Cuban Communist Party and explained
the AA program. She was advised to contact
a Protestant pastoral couple in Havana,
skilled in working with social problems: Juan
Naranjo and Estela Hernandez.

After several false starts, including the
demurral of several Miami Cuban AA groups when
asked to help, Lorente made contact with the
San Francisco-based organization which had
helped start and spread the Program in the
Soviet Union and elsewhere in Eastern Europe.
Although this organization was unable to extend
its writ to Latin America, one of its members,
Bruce K., learned of Lorente's quest and
contacted her. He then "recruited" six other
AA friends, mostly from the Bay Area, and
together with Lorente, navigated the red tape
of visas and travel arrangements.

The seven American AA members plus Hulda
Lorente arrived in Havana on January xxth, 1993,
were met by the Reverends Hernandez and Naranjo,
and were hosted at their Baptist church for a
week. They arranged for seven local alcoholics
to come to the church for a discussion of
alcoholism, resulting in the first AA meeting,
Jan. 19th, 1993.


Two subsequent meetings were held during the
course of that week. At the last meeting, the
Cuban alcoholics chose a name for their group:
Grupo Sueño ("Dream Group"), based on their
belief that after the Americans left, their
brief experience with sobriety and AA would be
nothing but a dream.

Note: the large Grupo Sueño still meets three
times a week in Havana, and is Cuba's "official"
first group. The original seven Cuban members
all drank, but not before carrying the message
to others. Two of these others, sober since
January 1993, are now the "oldest" Cuban AA
members as of the 10th anniversary.

Five months later, June, 1993, one of the seven
Americans, Arkie K., who speaks Spanish,
returned to Cuba with a Spanish-speaking friend
from La Jolla, Mike C. They traveled with
Naranjo and Hernandez and with a member of the
Grupo Sueño to the inland city of Santa Clara,
where, with the help of another Protestant
pastor, Cuba's second AA group was founded
("Grupo Nueva Vida" -- new life).

Thereafter, the message began to spread rapidly.
A major contributing factor was that Mexican
AA members were now traveling to Cuba in large
numbers, bringing Spanish language AA literature
as well as their experience, strength and hope.
Another factor was the poor state of public
transportation, creating the necessity for
meetings closer to home.

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++++Message 5091. . . . . . . . . . . . The start of AA in Cuba (Part 2 of
2)
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/6/2008 3:54:00 PM

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From: Bruce Kennedy <BruceKen@aol.com>
(BruceKen at aol.com)

Appendix: The beginnings of AA in Cuba --
Hulda Lorente's story

You asked me to tell you the story of how the
message of AA arrived in Cuba in January,
1993. I learned about the program of AA
through a friend about 10 years prior to this
date in Syracuse, NY. I remember we were
eating donuts and drinking coffee after the
Service at Unity Church in Syracuse, and
timidly I came over to say hello. As I
spoke, the first question I was asked by Marti
R. was, where was my English accent from, to
which even more timidly I responded: from Cuba.

I was surprised to see the brightness in her
eyes when she said: from Cuba? How wonderful!
From there on I felt very comfortable as if
I were home. I could speak about Cuba with
someone from the bottom of my heart. I had
found a friend.

From Marti R., I learned that AA was her
spiritual path. What I heard sounded good.
As she explained to me the program I learned
to accept the Twelve Steps as a way of life,
without ever asking myself the reason why it
was so important for her to pass on the message.
I never thought to relate the program of
recovery with alcohol, primarily because I
never saw alcohol anywhere in the ten years
that later on we shared an apartment in
Miami, Florida, and secondly because I became
fascinated with the Twelve Steps. The Twelve
Steps of AA appeared to me to be logical,
rational, well-thought, with universal
characteristics, good for everybody.

I never felt the need to join an Alanon group.
I went to the AA open meetings because I liked
the people. The idea of bringing the message
of AA to Cuba happened on a very hot day of
the month of July in one of my trips to Cuba
to visit my family. I was walking by a park
on Linea Street and saw a man apparently asleep
on a steamily hot sidewalk. I wondered what
was the matter, and people passing by did not
help when realizing the man was drunk. I had
never seen before the effects of alcohol so
closely. I came back home to Miami with the
determination to make the program of recovery
of AA to be known in Cuba.

With the assurance of having by my side the
support of a well seasoned experienced member
of AA, I started talking to my friends from
Cuba in transit in Miami about AA. I sent
books with them, and encouraged them to open
the doors of their hearts and their churches
to meetings for people with problems with
alcohol to get together to study the books.
By doing this, the idea did not go too far.
I thought I should go farther with it.

With the help of my friend and spiritual
mentor, Dr. Adolfo Ham, I was able to get an
interview with Dr. Silvio Platero, a member
of the Office of Religious Affairs of the PCC.
I don't remember the date. I left with Dr.
Platero the blue book of AA and others. I
told him that I wanted to invite a pastor from
Cuba to spend 30 days in Miami to go to as
many AA meetings as possible in Spanish.
The person I was directed to was the Rev.
Juan Francisco Naranjo. The Rev. Naranjo and
his wife, the Rev. Estela Hernandez, were very
active in community services. I talked to them,
and pastor Naranjo accepted my invitation to
come to Miami in spite of telling him that I
did not have any money to pay for his airfare
and expenses. I wrote a letter of invitation
to him, and with that he was able to obtain a
visa to travel from Cuba to the U.S.

When pastor Naranjo returned to Cuba, he
brought with him several books and started AA
group meetings at his church. Even with this,
the idea did not make any progress. Pastor
Naranjo was not an alcoholic. The program of
recovery only works among alcoholics, sharing,
as you say their strengths, hopes and
experiences. The Cubans in Miami did not
take up the challenge thinking that they had
to wait for the revolution to be over before
they could bring the message of AA to Cuba.

One day, commenting about my project of bringing
the message of AA to Cuba with friends from
Peacenet, someone sent me an e-mail from South
Africa, I don't remember her name, who gave me
the phone number and the address of the organi-
zation based in San Francisco, CA, USA,
"Creating A Sober World". Without waiting
long, Bruce K, their coordinator, and I
started planning a trip to Cuba with members
of this organization. Bruce K called the
Department of State, and there was no need to
apply for a special license for the initial
group of 6 people to travel to Cuba. We were
received by the Rev. Juan Francisco Naranjo
and Estela Hernandez at the Havana airport
with free visas. We stayed with them, they
provided us with a meeting room, took care of
the details of a marvelous program of
activities in Cuba that included visits to
hospitals and places of treatment for
alcoholism. Thus, this is how the first AA
group "Sueño" started in Cuba at the "William
Carey" Baptist Church in January, 1993. I
remember bringing Julio to the meeting twice
by the hand, and twice he was asked to come
back sober. There was another person in the
meeting telling his best friend how bad was
his drinking habits, and with that person the
first group of Alanon started in Cuba. The
rest of the story has been written in a report
by Bruce K, which remains in the archives of
the organization "Creating a Sober World."
I am sure a copy could be made available to
you through Arkie K. or Bruce K.

I visited the Office of General Services of
AA in Havana last December, 2001. Almost ten
years after our first visit in 1993, there are
almost 100 AA groups across the Island of Cuba.
I am mystified over the dedication that the
offices of general services of AA offer to the
world and the role every one of its members
play locally to make the program work. My
message to my friends who still don't know
about AA, or those who perhaps know about it,
but are still in doubt, is that they may open
the doors of their hearts, their churches and
meeting places to the groups of AA in Cuba.

Hulda Lorente
P.O. Box 56032
St. Petersburg, FL 33732
Tel. 727/528/3149
e-mail: hlorente@hotmail.com
(hlorente at hotmail.com)

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++++Message 5092. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Fifth steps in early AA
From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/6/2008 3:51:00 PM

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We have Earl Treat's story of doing the early
steps in his story "He Sold Himself Short."

The specific passage is on p. 292 in the Third
Edition and p. 263 in the current edition.

Technically, though, this wasn't a Fifth Step
as the program had only six steps at the time.

He did it with Dr. Bob. No mention is made of
going through the steps with someone outside
the program.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

- - - -

At 21:28 7/5/2008, Raymond Shepherd wrote:


>What was the procedure for early AA members
>to take Step Five? The Big Book, the 12x12,
>The Little Red Book all suggest people outside
>of AA to hear the fifth step.
>
>Some of my protogees question my use of The
>Little Red Book because it tells the reader
>'when the right time arrives, arrange an
>interview with anyone outside AA who will
>be understanding but unaffected by your
>narration.'
>
>Does anyone have information regarding hearing
>of Fifth steps in early AA prior to 1953?

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++++Message 5093. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Spiritual not religious
From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/6/2008 12:46:00 PM

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In a letter dated 1954 (seen in The AA Way
of Life pg 95) Bill wrote, "We are only
operating a spiritual kindergarden to which
people are enabled to get over drinking and
find the grace to go on living to better
effect. Each man's theology has to be his own
quest, his own value."

The rest of pg 95 attributes its quotations
to AACOA pp 162, 163, 167.

"When the Big Book was being planned,some
members thought that it ought to be Christian
in the doctrinal sense. Others had no objection
to the use of the word "God," but wanted to
avoid doctrinal issues. Spirituality, yes.
Religion, no. Still others wanted a psycho-
logical book, to lure the Alcoholic in. Once
in he could take God or leave him alone as he
wished. To the rest of us this was shocking,
but happily we listened. Our group conscience
was at work to construct the most acceptable
and effective book possible. Every voice was
playing its appointed part. Our atheists and
agnostics widened our gateway so that all
who suffer might pass through, regardless of
their belief or lack of belief."

Yours in Service
Shakey Mike Gwirtz

- - - -

From Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)
<glennccc@sbcglobal.net>
(glennccc at sbcglobal.net)

The description of AA as "spiritual" rather
than "religious" goes back to the earliest
days. See for example this reference from
1940:

Message 381 Possibly the 1st AA Pamphlet
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/381

From William Lash

THE FIRST “A.A.” PAMPHLET
AS DERIVED FROM THE SERIES
OF ARTICLES FROM THE
HOUSTON PRESS

BY
LARRY JEWELL*

(April 1940)

[*Larry Jewell came to Houston from
Cleveland with only a Big Book and a
Spiritual Experience resulting from having
taken the Steps while hospitalized. His
Sponsors were Dr. Bob Smith & Clarence
Snyder.]

"This approach to alcoholism is squarely based
on our own drinking experience, what we have
learned from medicine and psychiatry, and upon
certain spiritual principles common to all
creeds. We think each man’s religious views,
if he has any, are his own affair. No member
is obliged to conform to anything whatever
except to admit that he has the alcoholic
illness and that he honestly wishes to be rid
of it."

"While every shade of opinion is expressed
among us we take no position as a group, upon
controversial questions. We are only trying
to aid the sick men and distracted families
who want to be at peace. We have found that
genuine tolerance of others, coupled with a
friendly desire to be of service is most
essential to our recovery."

- - - -

In a message dated 7/6/2008 3:14:43 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
jax760@yahoo.com writes:

We frequently hear in the rooms that the AA
program is "spiritual not religious."

I am aware that Bill W. has been quoted as
saying "we are not a religious organization"
and that the Big Book says ... "we have written
a book which we believe to be spiritual as
well as moral."

Does anyone recall seeing in anything in print
attributable to Bill W., the first 100 or in
Conference literature that says "spriritual
not religious"?

Facts only please, no opinions on the topic!

God Bless

John B

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++++Message 5094. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Set A Side Prayer
From: jm48301 . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/6/2008 5:00:00 PM

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In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Alan
Spencer <alan.nm46@...> wrote:
>
> Some of the Big Book Studies around the country
> use a prayer called the set-a-side prayer; does
> anyone have the words?
>
> Thanks,
> Alan in the Desert
______________________________________

The text of the Set-Aside Prayer and an
explanation of its source can be found in:

http://www.justloveaudio.com/resources/12_Steps_Recovery/Pre-Step_Work/\

Set-Aside_Prayer.pdf [17]

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++++Message 5095. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Spiritual not religious
From: Arthur Sheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/6/2008 10:00:00 PM

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Hi John

Regrettably there is much repeated in AA that
has no basis in fact. Early AA was very "pro
religion" but it never attempted to project
itself as a religion. When too few words are
cited it is usually at the expense of context.
And I don't agree at all with the context you
are portraying. This is rather long reply
since you are seeking citations.

From my own investigations it seems that
attempts to draw a distinction between the
words "spiritual" and "religious" are flawed
and sophomoric. The two words can be used
interchangeably based on just about any
dictionary. Do a search on the internet for
the text string "definition of spiritual."
Almost every return that derives from a
dictionary will define the word "spiritual"
as "religious" or "of religion" or "of the
soul" (spirit). Attempts to draw a contrasting
distinction between the two words rest far
more in the secularism of contemporary AA
rather than in AA's historical roots. Many
of AA's early historical friends were members
of the clergy and their influence was profound.
Bill W often stated that AA's two best friends
were medicine and religion.

Over the past two decades the rise of
secularism has spawned the notion of the
words "religion" or "religious" to almost
be pejoratives. I find this very disturbing.
Also be careful to not be too selective in
the sparse citing of Bill W and the Big Book
-- both cite many favorable descriptions of
"religion" or "religious." For example:

From Bill W's address to the 1960 National
Clergy Conference On Alcoholism:

(1) "Excellencies and Friends: My thanks to
Father Ray for his introduction. He has us off
to an appropriate start. This hour with you
is most meaningful to me and I trust it will
be to you and to A.A. as a whole. Every
thoughtful A.A. realizes that the divine grace,
which has always flowed through the Church, is
the ultimate foundation on which AA rests. Our
spiritual origins are Christian ..."

(2) "... It now occurs to me that it may be
profitable if we were to review the origins
of AA; to take a look at some of its under-
lying mechanisms -- an interior look as it
were. Of course I am here reflecting my own
views, and some of these are bound to be
speculative. At any rate, here they are.
Though AA roots are in the centuries-old
Christian community, there seems little doubt
that in an immediate sense our fellowship
began in the office of the much-respected Dr.
Carl Jung of Zurich ..."

(3) "... Now a final thought. Many a non-
alcoholic clergyman asks these questions about
Alcoholics Anonymous: "Why do clergymen so
often fail with alcoholics, when AA so often
succeeds? Is it possible that the grace of
AA is superior to that of the Church? Is
Alcoholics Anonymous a new religion, a
competitor of the Church?

If these misgivings had real substance, they
would be serious indeed. But, as I have
already indicated, Alcoholics Anonymous cannot
in the least be regarded as a new religion.
Our Twelve Steps have no theological content,
except that which speaks of "God as we under-
stand Him." This means that each individual
AA member may define God according to whatever
faith or creed he may have. Therefore there
isn't the slightest interference with the
religious views of any of our membership.
The rest of the Twelve Steps define moral
attitudes and helpful practices, all of them
precisely Christian in character. Therefore,
as far as they go, the Steps are good
Christianity; indeed they are good Catholicism,
something which Catholic writers have affirmed
more than once.

Neither does AA exert the slightest religious
authority over its members: No one is
compelled to believe anything. No one is
compelled to meet membership conditions. No
one is obliged to pay anything. Therefore we
have no system of authority, spiritual or
temporal, that is comparable to or in the
least competitive with the Church. At the
center of our society we have a Board of
Trustees. This body is accountable yearly to
a Conference of elected Delegates. These
Delegates represent the conscience and desire
of AA as regards functional or service
matters. Our Tradition contains an emphatic
injunction that these Trustees may never
constitute themselves as a government -- they
are to merely provide certain services that
enable AA as a whole to function. The same
principles apply at our group and area level.

Dr. Bob, my co-partner, had his own religious
views. For whatever they may be worth, I have
my own. But both of us have gone heavily on
record to the effect that these personal
views and preferences can never under any
conditions be injected into the AA program
as a working part of it. AA is a sort of
spiritual kindergarten, but that is all. Never
could it be called a religion.

Nor should any clergyman, because he does not
happen to be a channel of grace to alcoholics,
feel that he or his Church is lacking in
grace. No real question of grace is involved
at all - it is just a question of who can best
transmit God's abundance. It so happens that
we who have suffered alcoholism, we who can
identify so deeply with other sufferers, are
the ones usually best suited for this parti-
cular work. Certainly no clergyman ought to
feel any inferiority just because he himself
is not an alcoholic! Then, as I have already
emphasized, AA has actually derived all of
its principles, directly or indirectly, from
the Church.

Ours, gentlemen, is a debt of gratitude far
beyond any ability of mine to express. On
behalf of members everywhere, I give you our
deepest thanks for the warm understanding and
the wonderful co-operation that you have
everywhere afforded us. Please also have my
gratitude for the privilege of being with you
this morning. This is an hour that I shall
remember always ..."

From the Q&A that followed Bill's address:

(4) "... When these Steps were shown to my
friends, their reactions were quite mixed
indeed. Some argued that six steps had worked
fine, so why twelve? From our agnostic
contingent there were loud cries of too much
"God." Others objected to an expression, which
I had included which suggested getting on
one's knees while in prayer. I heavily resisted
these objections for months. But finally did
take out my statement about a suitable prayer-
ful posture and I finally went along with that
now tremendously important expression, "God
as we understand Him" - this expression having
been coined, I think, by one of our former
atheist members. This was indeed a ten-strike.
That one has since enabled thousands to join
AA who would have otherwise gone away. It
enabled people of fine religious training and
those of none at all to associate freely and
to work together. It made one's religion the
business of the AA member himself and not that
of his society.

That AA's Twelve Steps have since been in such
high esteem by the Church, that members of the
Jesuit Order have repeatedly drawn attention
to the similarity between them and the
Ignatian Exercises, is a matter for our
great wonder and gratitude indeed ..."

(5) From the Foreword to the Second Edition
Big Book:

"... Another reason for the wide acceptance
of A.A. was the ministration of friends --
friends in medicine, religion, and the press,
together with innumerable others who became
our able and persistent advocates. Without
such support, A.A. could have made only the
slowest progress. Some of the recommendations
of A.A.'s early medical and religious friends
will be found further on in this book.

Alcoholics Anonymous is not a religious
organization. Neither does A.A. take any
particular medical point of view, though we
cooperate widely with the men of medicine
as well as with the men of religion.

Alcohol being no respecter of persons, we are
an accurate cross section of America, and in
distant lands, the same democratic evening-up
process is now going on. By personal religious
affiliation, we include Catholics, Protestants,
Jews, Hindus, and a sprinkling of Moslems and
Buddhists. More than 15% of us are women ..."

(6) From Bill's Story

"... The door opened and he stood there,
fresh-skinned and glowing. There was something
about his eyes. He was inexplicably different.
What had happened?

I pushed a drink across the table. He refused
it. Disappointed but curious, I wondered what
had got into the fellow. He wasn't himself.
"Come, what's this all about?" I queried. He
looked straight at me. Simply, but smilingly,
he said, "I've got religion ..."

(7) From We Agnostics

"... We, who have traveled this dubious path,
beg you to lay aside prejudice, even against
organized religion. We have learned that
whatever the human frailties of various faiths
may be, those faiths have given purpose and
direction to millions. People of faith have
a logical idea of what life is all about.
Actually, we used to have no reasonable
conception whatever. We used to amuse our-
selves by cynically dissecting spiritual
beliefs and practices when we might have
observed that many spiritually-minded persons
of all races, colors, and creeds were demon-
strating a degree of stability, happiness and
usefulness which we should have sought
ourselves ..."

(8) From Into Action

"... We must be entirely honest with somebody
if we expect to live long or happily in this
world. Rightly and naturally, we think well
before we choose the person or persons with
whom to take this intimate and confidential
step. Those of us belonging to a religious
denomination which requires confession must,
and of course, will want to go to the properly
appointed authority whose duty it is to receive
it. Though we have no religious connection, we
may still do well to talk with someone ordained
by an established religion. We often find such
a person quick to see and understand our
problem. Of course, we sometimes encounter
people who do not understand alcoholics ..."

"... If circumstances warrant, we ask our
wives or friends to join us in morning
meditation. If we belong to a religious
denomination which requires a definite morning
devotion, we attend to that also. If not
members of religious bodies, we sometimes
select and memorize a few set prayers which
emphasize the principles we have been
discussing. There are many helpful books also.
Suggestions about these may be obtained from
one's priest, minister, or rabbi. Be quick to
see where religious people are right. Make
use of what they offer ..."

(9) From Working With Others

"... Your prospect may belong to a religious
denomination. His religious education and
training may be far superior to yours. In that
case he is going to wonder how you can add
anything to what he already knows. But he will
be curious to learn why his own convictions
have not worked and why yours seem to work so
well. He may be an example of the truth that
faith alone is insufficient. To be vital,
faith must be accompanied by self sacrifice
and unselfish, constructive action. Let him
see that you are not there to instruct him in
religion. Admit that he probably knows more
about it than you do, but call to his attention
the fact that however deep his faith and
knowledge, he could not have applied it or
he would not drink. Perhaps your story will
help him see where he has failed to practice
the very precepts he knows so well. We
represent no particular faith or denomination.
We are dealing only with general principles
common to most denominations ..."

(10) From The Family Afterward

"... Alcoholics who have derided religious
people will be helped by such contacts. Being
possessed of a spiritual experience, the
alcoholic will find he has much in common
with these people, though he may differ with
them on many matters. If he does not argue
about religion, he will make new friends and
is sure to find new avenues of usefulness and
pleasure. He and his family can be a bright
spot in such congregations. He may bring new
hope and new courage to many a priest,
minister, or rabbi, who gives his all to
minister to our troubled world. We intend
the foregoing as a helpful suggestion only.
So far as we are concerned, there is nothing
obligatory about it. As non-denominational
people, we cannot make up others' minds for
them. Each individual should consult his own
conscience ..."

========

In just about every mention of "not religious"
it seems that Bill's context was that AA is
not affiliated with any specific religious
denomination and matters of religion are
solely up to each individual member to define
for themselves -- Bill very definitely was
not attempting to distance himself from
religion. Two more citations that might be
interesting concerning the Oxford Group and
its influence on the principles embodied in
the Steps.

In a July 14, 1949 letter to the Rev Sam
Shoemaker Bill W wrote "So far as I am
concerned, and Dr Smith too, the Oxford
Group seeded AA. It was our spiritual
wellspring at the beginning."

In AA Comes of Age (pg 39) Bill also wrote:
"Early AA got its ideas of self-examination,
acknowledgment of character defects,
restitution for harm done and working with
others straight from the Oxford Groups and
directly from Sam Shoemaker their former
leader in America and from nowhere else."

Cheers
Arthur

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++++Message 5096. . . . . . . . . . . . Amen in the 7th step prayer
From: tomikepete . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/8/2008 12:17:00 AM

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Given all the AA prayers, does anyone know
why the 7th step prayer is the only one which
ends with "amen" ?

Peace

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++++Message 5097. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Set A Side Prayer
From: tomper87 . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/6/2008 11:05:00 PM

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Another version of the prayer:

Set Aside Prayer:

"God please help me to set aside everything
I know about myself, the twelve steps, this
book, the meetings, my disease and you God,
so I may have an open mind and a new
experience with all of these things. Please
let me see the truth."

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++++Message 5098. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Fifth steps in early AA
From: Arthur Sheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/6/2008 10:56:00 PM

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The reference on the matter of Step 5 is in
the Big Book chapter Into Action (pgs 73 and
74) and The Little Red Book refers the reader
to those pages which state:

"... We must be entirely honest with somebody
if we expect to live long or happily in this
world. Rightly and naturally, we think well
before we choose the person or persons with
whom to take this intimate and confidential
step. Those of us belonging to a religious
denomination which requires confession must,
and of course, will want to go to the properly
appointed authority whose duty it is to
receive it. Though we have no religious
connection, we may still do well to talk with
someone ordained by an established religion.
We often find such a person quick to see and
understand our problem. Of course, we
sometimes encounter people who do not
understand alcoholics ..."

To me the emphasis is on: "... Rightly and
naturally, we think well before we choose the
person or persons with whom to take this
intimate and confidential step ..." I believe
the Big Book guidance is that you "can" do
Step 5 with someone outside of AA not that
you "should or must" do it with someone outside
of AA. I think over time this has primarily
evolved into taking the Step 5 with one's
sponsor. I personally know of several disasters
that occurred from members not wisely picking
someone outside of AA.

There weren't any formal Steps in early AA's
6-Step program. It was all word of mouth and
what got passed on varied quite a bit
depending on who was doing the passing.
That's one of the reasons why the Big Book
was written. The Mid-West (re Dr Bob and
Earl T) was far more influenced by the Oxford
Group than the NY members. What Earl T
describes in his story is part of the "Five
C's" of the Oxford Group (Confession). It also
seems that in the early days members were
walked through the Steps rather quickly.

While The Little Red Book is more explicit
and direct in recommending a "clergyman or
psychiatrist" that was the interpretation of
the 12 Steps based on the viewpoint of the
Nicolette Group in Minneapolis, MN not
necessarily AA as a whole. I'd strongly
recommend first doing the 5th Step with one's
sponsor. When I first did it, it was with my
sponsor and then I did it again with a Jesuit
priest who was an AA member. The priest was
my way of admitting it to God while receiving
the Roman Catholic sacrament of Confession
(today called Reconciliation).

Cheers
Arthur

PS - while on my soapbox I think there is
far too much emphasis in AA today on "Step
procedure" and it is at the expense of
"Step substance." Bill W gave us Steps "which
are suggested as a program of recovery" --
they are not the same as Moses giving us
Commandments.

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++++Message 5099. . . . . . . . . . . . Serenity Prayer faces challenge on
authorship
From: jblair101 . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/11/2008 1:05:00 PM

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By Laurie Goodstein
International Herald Tribune

Friday, July 11, 2008
http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/07/11/america/prayer.php

Generations of recovering alcoholics, soldiers, weary parents,
exploited workers and just about anybody feeling beaten down by life
have found solace in a short prayer that begins: "God grant me the
serenity to accept the things I cannot change."

Now the Serenity Prayer is about to endure a controversy over its
authorship that is likely to be anything but serene.

For more than 70 years, the composer was thought to be the Protestant
theologian Reinhold Niebuhr, one of modern Christianity's most
towering figures. Niebuhr, who died in 1971, said he was quite sure he
had written it, and his wife, Ursula, also a prominent theologian,
dated its composition to the early 1940s.

His daughter Elisabeth Sifton, a book editor and publisher, wrote a
book about the prayer in 2003 in which she described her father first
using it in 1943 in an "ordinary Sunday service" at a church in the
Massachusetts town of Heath.

Now, a law librarian at Yale, using new databases of archival
documents, has found newspaper clippings and a book from as far back
as 1936 that quote close versions of the prayer. The quotes are from
civic leaders all over the United States and are always,
interestingly, by women.

Some refer to the prayer as if it were a proverb, while others appear
to claim it as their own poetry. None of them attribute the prayer to
a particular source. And they never mention Niebuhr.

An article about the mystery of the prayer, by Fred Shapiro, associate
library director and lecturer at Yale Law School, who edited "The Yale
Book of Quotations," will be published next week in the Yale Alumni
Magazine, an independent bimonthly publication. It will be followed by
a rebuttal from Sifton.

Shapiro said in an interview: "Reinhold Niebuhr was a very honest
person who was very forthright and modest about his role in the
Serenity Prayer. My interpretation would be that he probably
unconsciously adapted it from something that he had heard or read."

But Sifton faults Shapiro's approach as computer-driven and deprived
of historical and theological context. In an interview, she said her
father traveled widely in the 1930s, preaching in college chapels and
to church groups and could have used the prayer then. She said she
fixed the date of its composition to 1943 in her book, "The Serenity
Prayer: Faith and Politics in Times of Peace and War," because she had
relied on her parents' recollections.

Sifton said the newly unearthed quotes were merely evidence that her
father's preaching had a broad impact.

And she took greatest umbrage at Shapiro's notion that the prayer was
so simple that it could have been written by almost anyone in any era.

"There is a kind of austerity and humility about this prayer," Sifton
said, "that is very characteristic of him and was in striking contrast
to the conventional sound of the American pastorate in the 1930s, who
were by and large optimistic, affirmative, hopeful."

The precise origins of the Serenity Prayer have always been wrapped in
a fog. Even in Niebuhr's lifetime, his authorship was challenged.

His response was typically modest. He was quoted in a magazine article
in 1950 as saying: "Of course, it may have been spooking around for
years, even centuries, but I don't think so. I honestly do believe
that I wrote it myself."

The version of events most often cited in biographies of Niebuhr is
that after he used the prayer in a sermon in rural Massachusetts, an
Episcopal priest asked for permission to print it in a booklet for the
armed forces in 1944.

Alcoholics Anonymous then embraced it, simplified some wording,
changed the pronouns and circulated it as a motto for its 12-step program.

Bartlett's Familiar Quotations attributed it to Niebuhr but gave the
date as 1934, perhaps citing an erroneous reference in an article in
the magazine of Alcoholics Anonymous, Shapiro said. But Ursula
Niebuhr, who died in 1997, wrote in a memorandum (which an assistant
for Shapiro saw in the Library of Congress) that her husband "may have
used it in his prayers" by 1934, but "it certainly was not then in
circulation."

A Niebuhr biographer, Charles Brown, was surprised to hear of the
early references. He said, "It is now well established beyond the
shadow of any doubt among knowledgeable and fair-minded people that
Niebuhr did compose it, probably in 1941 or '43."

Brown said that perhaps Sifton's theory was correct and that the
newspaper quotations were from people who heard Niebuhr speak the
prayer years before he wrote it down.

But, Shapiro argued, knowing that Niebuhr was so famous, why did none
of the people who cited the prayer in the clippings also cite the
theologian?

The artifacts that Shapiro unearthed dismayed the Reverend Gary
Dorrien, the Reinhold Niebuhr professor of social ethics at Union
Theological Seminary in New York, which was Niebuhr's scholarly home
for many years.

Dorrien said, "What has the ring of truth to me is that some of the
phrases in it, the gist of it, he heard or came into contact with in
some way that he wouldn't have remembered, since he's not a scholarly,
bookwormish person with habits of scholarly exactitude anyway."

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++++Message 5100. . . . . . . . . . . . Fr. Martin
From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/10/2008 6:37:00 PM

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Front-Page Story from June 29, 2008 Baltimore Sun.

His comeback was the worst-kept secret at Ashley.

After a six-month absence, an ailing Father Joseph Martin returned recently
to what has been called the Betty Ford Clinic of the East Coast - Father
Martin's Ashley. Arriving in his wheelchair, he waited for the applause and
standing ovation to yield before speaking to 80 patients at the addiction
treatment center he co-founded near Havre de Grace.

One more time, the 83-year-old priest spoke of the symptoms of sobriety -
the ways patients know they are getting better. Recognizing that everyone is
in pain. The return of one's self-esteem and humanity. No more living a lie.
Father Martin spoke of his own drinking, his own "island of pain and
self-hatred." He thanked everyone for their prayers. "I'm going to go home
shortly now. That took all the steam out of me."

This has been a milestone year for Joseph Martin. Together with his partner,
Mae Abraham, they watch over the addiction center they opened 25 years ago
this spring.

More than 30,000 people have been treated there, including supermodel Niki
Taylor, pro football player Thomas "Hollywood" Henderson, the late Michael
Kennedy, the son of Robert F. Kennedy, and the late former White House aide
Michael Deaver. Lynda Carter Altman, TV's former Wonder Woman and an Ashley
alum herself, performed before 540 guests who paid $250 a seat to attend a
silver anniversary gala last month.

Father Martin marked his own milestone this month: It was 50 years ago that
the young Baltimore priest entered treatment. He has congestive heart
failure now and endures dialysis three times weekly. His blood pressure
sinks dangerously low. Takes a week of energy to decide to belch, as Father
Martin says. Public appearances are seldom.

"I pray for him every day," says Mary Royals, 49, of Bethesda. "He has an
immense amount of compassion because he is one of us. He gave people back
their lives."

In 2003, Royals, once a serious binge drinker, spent a month at Ashley,
which is about the prettiest place for the ugly business of getting clean.
Bald eagles, wild turkeys and osprey inhabit the grounds of the former
estate of Sen. Millard Tydings of Maryland. While there's nothing idyllic
about detoxification, a patient's road to recovery is paved with creature
comforts at Ashley.

"At Ashley, I found people who had been in situations similar to mine. The
disease had no prejudices. It is a great equalizer, whether you are in the
public eye or not," Deaver wrote in his book, Behind the Scenes.

For $20,800 for 28 days, patients undergo a regiment of instruction,
therapy, fellowship and something about having to get up at 6 in the
morning. "This campus is routinely inspected by detection canines," says a
sign in the lobby of the nonprofit. The only permitted "contraband" is
candy. A media blackout is imposed; no cell phones, no BlackBerries, no TV -
except during Super Bowls and World Series. Sixty percent of the patients
are men, after all.

Until a few years ago, Father Martin regularly visited and welcomed patients
with his trademark: "The nightmare is over." He held court afternoons in the
sunny dining room, as patients gathered around.

To know Father Martin is to know his penguin joke: A police officer spots a
drunk walking down the street with a penguin. Tells the man to take the
penguin to the zoo where he belongs. The next day, the officer sees the same
drunk walking the same penguin. Thought I told you to take him to the zoo.
"I did," the drunk said. "He loved it. Today, we're going to the library."

The joke, emblematic of Father Martin's disarming approach to addiction, is
immortalized in Ashley's chapel, where a 1-inch figure of a penguin was
inserted in one of the stained-glass panels. The penguin is part of a tour
of Ashley, as are the hundreds of nametags stuck on the ceiling of a
waterfront gazebo by patients on their last day at the facility. Along the
fence line above the Chesapeake Bay, markers still remain for Molly and
Bonnie, Father Martin's Labs that once escorted patients on walks and
chronically retrieved balls.

Adorning the walls of Ashley's rooms, portraits of Father Martin and Mae
Abraham hang inseparably. Mae still speaks there every month, while Father
Martin has stayed home. He watches the news, waits for her return, and
steels himself against more dialysis.

"I live tired," he says.
But he's not alone.

At the Abraham home At Mae Abraham's Havre de Grace home in early June, no
one is enjoying the pool - too hot for that. Her manicured gardens feature
plants just high enough, as she points out, to avoid the urinary wrath of
the Labradors, which her 52-year-old son, Alex, field trains. The home was
built out in the back to make a bedroom for Father Martin. A crucifix hangs
over his crisply made bed, where a stuffed penguin hogs a pillow.

In the family room, Father Martin sits in what must be his
favorite chair. He's watching Fox News. I'm probably a McCain man,
he says. Mae sits behind him on the couch and consults the man's biography,
One
Step Closer: The Life and Work of Father Joseph C. Martin. She knows their
narrative by heart but the dates get fuzzy. In fact, it was 1958 when Father
Martin was admitted to a treatment center. Ordained a decade earlier, he had
discovered his taste for alcohol that same year during a Thanksgiving dinner
with fellow priests.

"There are people who have to acquire a taste for gin, but I didn't - I
loved it immediately. I had two or three doubles that day," he said in his
biography. His drinking escalated. "It never occurred to me that perhaps
there was something odd about a priest walking toward a garbage dump in the
middle of the afternoon carrying two suitcases filled with clanking
bottles."

It occurred to his superiors, who noticed Father Martin's careless teaching
habits and troubling behavior. In 1956, he was admitted to a psychiatric
ward of a California hospital. No one suspected alcoholism, so when Father
Martin left the hospital appearing healthier and happy, he also returned to
his double martinis and drinking shots of vodka from bottles he kept in his
bathroom. By 1958, Joe Martin could no longer keep his drinking and behavior
under control, much less a secret. The Archdiocese of Baltimore ordered him
into treatment at Guest House, a Michigan treatment center for clergy.

There, he was exposed to the tenants of Bill Wilson's Alcoholics Anonymous
program. Wilson, a Wall Street businessman ruined by drink, had developed a
12-step, faith-based program that treated alcoholism as a disease and
stressed staying sober and helping others achieve sobriety. Father Martin
saved his notes from the lectures and conversations during his time at Guest
House. He also got sober.

In the 1960s, Father Martin distilled Wilson's 12 steps into literally a
blackboard talk. He made the rounds of AA meetings with his direct,
self-referencing lectures on addiction. The U.S. armed services, which had
begun mandatory addiction training for servicemen, used Martin's 90-minute
Chalk Talk on Alcohol, as did private businesses and rehab centers. Poorly
lit and single-angled, the training films featured one bespectacled priest
and one chalk board. "No singing or dancing," as the host says. (The films
have gained a new audience on YouTube.)

We alcoholics drink because we can't NOT drink.

I must not make myself a part of the destruction of someone I love.

Drug your conscience and see where your behavior goes.

What are you worth?

But why did he drink?

"Oh, a thousand reasons," Father Martin says. "The point is I crossed the
line until I could not NOT drink."

Growing up in a Hampden rowhouse, the seven Martin children were exposed to
drinking. Father Martin's 81-year-old brother, Edward Martin, says their
father drank on Friday, payday. The rest of the week, James Martin, a
machinist by trade, was fine, but Friday nights were not pleasant. Three of
the four boys developed drinking problems.

"They say children of an alcoholic get used to the idea of drinking," says
Edward Martin, who lives in Georgia. He was spared the attraction. "I never
had the money to buy the stuff."

His older brother, Joseph, was clearly the popular one, winner of oratory
contests at Loyola High School, the gift of gab. He grew up to be a devoted
and enormously generous priest - with a quirk to his personality, his only
living brother says. In a crowd, Joseph dominated the conversation with his
humor, "as if he felt inadequate to socially bond with people or be
comfortable in their presence unless he was entertaining them. He doesn't
converse; he gives a humorous lecture."

In 1964, Father Martin crossed paths with Lora Mae Abraham, a mother and
housewife from Havre de Grace. Her drinking was out of control and
threatened to upend her marriage to Tommy Abraham, the owner of a Greek
restaurant in Aberdeen. Days after a lost weekend at Rehoboth Beach, Del.,
Abraham agreed to attend a lecture at the Johns Hopkins University. Former
Iowa Gov. Harold Hughes was to talk about his alcoholism. Filling in for the
governor, however, was a Catholic priest from Baltimore. Mae looked for the
exit.

Hello, I'm Joe Martin, and I'm an alcoholic. ...
Then, the Catholic priest told her, a Southern Baptist, that she wasn't to
blame
for her drinking. That she wasn't evil.

"He removed the shame from me," she says. "It changed my life forever on."

A lifelong friendship and partnership were born. Mae took everyone she knew
with a drinking problem to hear Father Martin's chalk talks. But despite his
sobriety and popularity, he was suffering another crisis by the end of the
1960s.

Assigned to St. Mary's Seminary on Paca Street, Father Martin no longer had
any assignments or classes, nothing to do anymore. He felt useless. He
stayed in his darkened bedroom and became increasingly reclusive and
depressed. He turned to Mae. "I'm 45 years old, and all I have to show for
my life is the blackboard talk," he told her on the phone in 1970.

They had all become close friends - Father Martin, Mae, her son, Alex, then
14, and Tommy - Father Martin especially liked the babaghanouj Tommy made at
his restaurant. So, it wasn't unusual when Tommy and Mae asked Father Martin
if he would like to come out to their home in the country and spend a few
days resting.

That was 38 years ago.

"He's the man who came to dinner, and he's still eating," she says.
He moved in with his German shepherd, Casey. Mae and the dog did not get
along, so she sent both dog and priest to canine-training class. That got
Father Martin driving and out of the house again. Next, her house guest
needed, well, a job. Father Martin went to work for the state of Maryland's
new Division of Alcoholism Control. Mae suggested that he also travel the
country to give his chalk talks. They started their own production company,
Kelly Productions, which offered nearly 40 Father Martin film titles. (In
2007, Mae and Father Martin sold the rights to his books and films.)

In 1978, Mae suggested they open a treatment center.

"You're going to die, and everything you have done will die with you," she
told him.

After an initial $1 million grant, it would take another seven years to
raise enough money to open Ashley - named for Mae's father, the Rev. Arthur
Ashley. In 1983, the 22-bed facility opened on Oakington Farm, the former
estate of Millard Tydings, a native son of Havre de Grace and U.S. senator
from Maryland. Six staff members hovered and fussed over all five patients.
Expenses were paid from the film profits. And over much time, Ashley built a
national reputation as it grew donation by donation, building by building.

Father Martin became a celebrity - his picture was taken with former first
ladies Betty Ford and Nancy Reagan. In 1993, he was invited to the Vatican.
Father Martin, then 65, helped celebrate Mass with Pope John Paul II. "The
most profound experience of my life," he says.

Before he left, the priest from Harford County handed the pontiff a brochure
from Ashley.

Retirement years In retirement, Mae Abraham has become Father Martin's
caretaker. On days when his blood pressure plummets, she props his feet up
and
feeds him broth and monitors his numbers. In January, he was near death in
an area hospital. Last rites were given. Mae rushed to the hospital and
insisted he be placed on a respirator. There had been confusion about his
living
will, she said.

One recent afternoon, Mae, who has been sober 45 years, steps outside to
give a tour of her garden, but needs to get back inside. She doesn't like to
leave Father alone (she has never called him Joseph). At night, her son,
Alex, helps Father Martin into bed and wonders if he'll still be with them
in the morning. You just don't know on those dialysis days, Mae says.

"He's afraid of leaving this place," she says. "But I told him I made him a
promise a long time ago. As long as I'm alive, you'll be here."

In the family room, Father Martin turns the sound down to Fox News. As a Sun
photographer takes pictures, he whispers, "You can use some of these
pictures to keep the mice out of the basement." One of the black Labs lopes
over with a toy in his mouth. Just like the Labs years ago at Ashley.

"Like everything, I miss it."

No blackboard lecture, just a tired and sick man whose simple and smart
words helped a lot of sick people while giving him something very much to do
with his life.

"Mae and I know what we've done. We stand before God with it," says Joseph
Martin of Father Martin's Ashley.

"And if they mess it up and don't keep our philosophy," Mae Abraham adds,
"we'll come back and haunt the hell out of
them."

They aren't kidding.

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++++Message 5101. . . . . . . . . . . . 400+ AA History & Oldtimer CDs &
DVDs
From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/10/2008 6:45:00 PM

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www.justloveaudio.com has just added over 400 AA History and Oldtimer CDs
and DVDs to our store. Many of these Oldtimers came to AA in the 1930s and
1940s. To see the CD list:

1-Please go to
http://justloveaudio.com/audio_store.php?audio=aa
2-The "Type" field is a drop down screen, pick "History/Oldtimers"
3-After choosing "History/Oldtimers", click "Search"
4-Scroll down to see the full list of Oldtimer and AA History CDs available

We also have AA History DVDs in our recovery bookstore at
http://justloveaudio.com/book_store.php?cat_id=2

Thank you for allowing us to be of service & God bless.

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++++Message 5102. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Fifth steps in early AA
From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/7/2008 6:34:00 AM

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From Laurie Andrews <jennylaurie1@hotmail.com>
(jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com)

Is it recorded anywhere when, where and with whom Dr Bob took the fifth
step?
"Pass It On" recounts that the morning of his last drink, after Bill gave
him
"one 'goofball' and a single bottle of beer, to curb the shakes" Bob set off
to
perform a surgical procedure. Hours later he returned home, having driven
around to his creditors and others to make amends. So it seems he did not
take
the fifth step after his last drink; did he take the first five steps with
Bill
in the previous few weeks, while Bill was lodging with him? Also, how many
fifth
steps did Bill take? AA literature relates two occasions: in his story in
the
Big Book Bill wrote, "(After leaving hospital) my schoolmate (Ebby) visited
me,
and I fully acquainted him with my problems and deficiencies. We made a list
of
people I had hurt or toward whom I felt resentment. I expressed my entire
willingness to approach these individuals, admitting my wrong (steps four
through nine)." Then, "Pass It On" records of Bill's first meeting with Fr
Ed
Dowling, "That evening, Father Ed began sharing with Bill an understanding
of
the spiritual life that then and ever after seemed to speak to Bill's
condition
(interesting Quaker phrase! - see George Fox, "There is one, even Christ
Jesus,
who can speak to thy condition"). Bill, author of the Fifth Step, would
later
characterize that evening as the night he took his Fifth Step... he
unburdened
himself of his commissions and omissions, all of which had lain heavily on
his
mind, and of which he had found, until then, no way to speak...." (Surely
that
was a Step Ten?)

- - - -

From: "terry walton" <twalton@3gcinc.com>
(twalton at 3gcinc.com)

We have many examples in the Big Book of people outside of AA
"hearing our story" or 5th steps.

The first is Bill in his own words:

BB pg 13:3 "My schoolmate visited me, and I fully acquainted him
with my problems and deficiencies."

We also know this done again in AA Comes of Age when Bill meets Father
Ed Dowling.

Both men outside of AA.

In the book Alcoholics Anonymous it suggests using the properly
appointed people.

The list of "proper people" suggested is: page 74:0

1. Those of us belonging to a religious denomination which requires
confession must, and of course, will want to go to the properly
appointed authority whose duty it is to receive it.
2. Though we have no religious connection, we may still do well to
talk with someone ordained by an established religion.
3. Perhaps our doctor or
4. or psychologist will be the person.
5. It may be one of our own family
6. we cannot disclose anything to our wives or our parents which will
hurt them and make them unhappy. (this is saying a family member or wife
is a good candidate as long as what is shared is not at their expense)

The directions for "whom" is to hear this pretty clear:

Notwithstanding the great necessity for discussing ourselves with
someone, it may be one is so situated that there is no suitable person
available. If that is so, this step may be postponed, only, however, if we
hold
ourselves in complete readiness to go through with it at the first
opportunity.
We say this because we are very anxious that we talk to the right person. It
is
important that he be able to keep a
confidence; that he fully understand and approve what we are driving at;

A priest, minister, rabbi, which their duty is to receive this, under
the protection of the right of confession these conversations are
protected by Church law. A doctor or psychologist or attorney all are good
suggestions for the same reason, client confidentiality.

I find it petty convincing the men that wrote this, expected a man or
woman to use a religious person "whose duty it is to
receive it. since it is suggested not once, but twice. And backed up
again shortly with the 11th step suggestion of "make use of what
they offer".

Terry Walton

- - - -

From: Tommy Hickcox <cometkazie1@cox.net>
(cometkazie1 at cox.net)

We have Earl Treat's story of doing the early steps in his story "He Sold
Himself Short."The specific passage is on p. 292 in the Third Edition and p.
263
in the current edition.Technically, though, this wasn't a Fifth Step as the
program had only six steps at the time.He did it with Dr. Bob. No mention is
made of going through the steps with someone outside the program.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

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++++Message 5103. . . . . . . . . . . . Big Book concordance index history?
From: diazeztone . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/9/2008 9:56:00 PM

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I am in Dallas for a while and attending a
group which is studying the book using the
big book study guide by the primary purpose
group of Dallas. (available online also)

Is there a concordance index of all the
history things in the book as they happen
chapter by chapter and line by line?

Example today we are doing the Dr.s Opinion
and at the end they were wondering who the
two men were mentioned at the end of that
chapter. I should know but need to look them
up.

Have all the historical references been listed
line by line paragraph by paragraph??

LD P sober 13 years since june 15 1995
editor aabibliography.com

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++++Message 5104. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Amen in the 7th step prayer
From: grault . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/10/2008 10:53:00 PM

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Or why the 7th Step prayer speaks to God in
terms of "you" and "your" but the 3d Step
prayer speaks in terms of "Thee" and "Thy"?

- - - -

In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "tomikepete"
<mike_petersen@...> wrote:
>
> Given all the AA prayers, does anyone know
> why the 7th step prayer is the only one which
> ends with "amen" ?
>

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++++Message 5105. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Serenity Prayer faces challenge
on authorship
From: James Bliss . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/11/2008 8:40:00 PM

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The article appears to be very incomplete.
What article (at least one or two) and what
book did Shapiro find. Seems that there
should be the ability to verify the sources
one way or the other and provide additional
background as to who, what and where.

Jim

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++++Message 5106. . . . . . . . . . . . Serenity Prayer article by Fred
Shapiro and response by Niebuhr''s daughter
From: jblair101 . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/12/2008 3:03:00 PM

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As a follow-up to the Serenity Prayer news
column posted yesterday, here are two links
of interest:

"Who wrote the Serenity Prayer?"
by Fred R. Shapiro, Yale University
http://www.yalealumnimagazine.com/issues/2008_07/serenity.html

"It takes a master to make a masterpiece"
by Elisabeth Sifton (Niebuhr's daughter responds.)
http://www.yalealumnimagazine.com/issues/2008_07/serenity.html#sifton

John

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++++Message 5107. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Serenity Prayer faces challenge
on authorship
From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/13/2008 7:12:00 PM

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I wonder when Shapiro discovered this, particularly in view of the fact that
posts from this
list (see mine of Dec 6, 2007) do come up on Google searches.

Facts are facts, but I think his interpretation of the evidence may go a
little
too far.
Comments interspersed:
>
>
>
> By Laurie Goodstein
> International Herald Tribune
>
> Friday, July 11, 2008
> http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/07/11/america/prayer.php

<snip>
>
> For more than 70 years, the composer was thought to be the Protestant
> theologian Reinhold Niebuhr, one of modern Christianity's most
> towering figures. Niebuhr, who died in 1971, said he was quite sure he
> had written it, and his wife, Ursula, also a prominent theologian,
> dated its composition to the early 1940s.

Niebuhr did not say he was "quite sure" he had written it. His daughter is
the
one who is
emphatically sure of everything including exact dates. When the editor of a
Lutheran
publication asked Niebuhr to comment on doubts as to his authorship, Niebuhr
pointed
out that great minds of the past, including Socrates and even Jesus, had
made
use of older
material (he went on at some length) but that he did think he had written
the
prayer in its
present form. In other words he seemed to be hedging a bit.

Niebuhr's father was a minister who immigrated from Germany as a young man.
If
Niebuhr
translated something he had heard only from his father and only in German,
his
recollection that he wrote it himself would be reasonable or at least
understandable.

<snip>
>
> Some refer to the prayer as if it were a proverb, while others appear
> to claim it as their own poetry. None of them attribute the prayer to
> a particular source. And they never mention Niebuhr.

<snip>
>
> Brown said that perhaps Sifton's theory was correct and that the
> newspaper quotations were from people who heard Niebuhr speak the
> prayer years before he wrote it down.
>
> But, Shapiro argued, knowing that Niebuhr was so famous, why did none
> of the people who cited the prayer in the clippings also cite the
> theologian?

This point seems weak to me. Of course, I haven't seen the original article,
but
I strongly
suspect that his 1936 example of the prayer is the same 1936 one that I have
seen. It is
nothing but a caption to a photograph of Mildred Pinkerton, the Executive
Secretary of the
Syracuse YWCA, and says "Quotes the prayer, 'God grant us the courage to
change
what
must be changed, the serenity to accept what cannot be changed, and the
insight
to tell
one from the other.'" and that her remarks were delivered at the annual
meeting
of the
YWCA. The reporter was only writing a caption for a photo, so it is
impossible
to know
whether the speaker mentioned an author.

The other 2 examples I saw were not quite as brief, but in general I think
it is
hard to
conclude anything from the fact that Niebuhr's name is NOT mentioned in
association with
the prayer until after 1943, because it often depends on what a reporter
feels
is important,
and Niebuhr was not so famous that a random reporter would necessarily have
known
about him. The article seems like a tempest in a teapot.

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++++Message 5108. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 400+ AA History & Oldtimer CDs &
DVDs
From: sobrietytalks . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/12/2008 3:55:00 PM

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There is also a great collection of historical
Alcoholics Anonymous talks at www.sobrietytalks.com

There's a specific category for AA HISTORY
RELATED TALKS & RECORDINGS MADE PRIOR TO 1970.

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++++Message 5109. . . . . . . . . . . . Tom Uzzell''s Pay?
From: schaberg43 . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/13/2008 9:24:00 AM

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I have seen references on the Web to the fact
that Tom Uzzell was paid either $375 or $380
to do the editing of the Big Book.

Can anyone supply me with an original source
for this piece of information - or is it just
another one of the unsubstantiated "facts"
about AA that float around the Internet?

Old Bill

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++++Message 5110. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Fifth steps in early AA
From: Arthur Sheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/11/2008 9:41:00 PM

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Dear Laurie and Terry

With all due respect, you are advocating
revisionist speculation not AA history.
AAHistoryLovers is supposed to focus on
fact-based information as opposed to
editorial-based imagination. Bill W sobered
up in December 1934. Dr Bob sobered up in
June 1935. The 12 Steps were first drafted
in December 1938.

When Bill W sobered up there was no such thing
even remotely approaching the notion of doing
the equivalent of a "5th Step" with "people
outside of AA." There was no AA. The
"schoolmate" who visited Bill in the hospital
was Ebby T. Bill considered him to be his
sponsor throughout his life (even though Ebby
had his difficulties staying sober). The idea
of alluding to Ebby as "people outside AA" is
absurd.

Bill W met Father Dowling in December 1940 at
the 24th St Club in NY City. He reputedly was
Bill W's "spiritual sponsor" throughout his
life. Although he was not an alcoholic, to
portray Fr Dowling as "people outside AA" is
also absurd. He started AA in St Louis, MO.

When Dr Bob had his last drink there was no
such thing as "Steps." Both of you seem to be
attempting to retrofit what exists today to
something that didn't exist back then.

Dr Bob joined the Oxford Group in 1933. This
was approximately two years before he met Bill W.
During the first few years of its existence,
the AA Fellowship was affiliated with the
Oxford Group in both NY and Akron. Core
Oxford Group principles consisted of the
"Four Absolutes" of honesty, unselfishness,
purity and love - the "Five C's" (confidence,
confession, conviction, conversion and
continuance) and the "Five Procedures"
(1. Give in to God, 2. Listen to God's
direction, 3. Check guidance, 4. Restitution
and 5. Sharing for witness and confession).

Dr Bob would certainly not have been a stranger
to practicing the principle of "Confession."
Henrietta Sieberling organized an OG meeting
at the home of T Henry and Clarace Williams
in Akron specifically to help Dr Bob with his
drinking. Dr Bob confessed openly about his
drinking but could not stop.

The OG never had anything that they called or
considered to be Steps. The idea and evolution
of Steps derived in the latter 1930s from what
was called the "alcoholic squads" of the OG
in Akron and NY. It initially took the form
of a word-of-mouth 6-Step program. Various
versions of the 6 Steps can be found in
(1) Earl T's Big Book Story "He Sold Himself
Short" pg 263 4th edition (2) "AA Comes of
Age" pg 160 and "Pass It On" pg 197 and
(3) a July 1953 Grapevine Article titled
"A Fragment of History" which can also be
found in "The Language of the Heart" pg 200.
In various forms, up to December 1938, the
equivalent of what later became Steps 5 and 10
were stated as either: (1) "Confession" or
(2) "We confessed or shared our shortcomings
with another person in confidence" or (3) "We
got honest with another person, in confidence."
There was no "admitted to God" and "to
ourselves."

It may sound like AA heresy, but the Big Book
is not the be-all and end-all on the Steps.
When Bill W wrote the bulk of the Big Book
basic text in 1938 he was in his fourth year
of sobriety, there were approximately 100
members and there were two groups. When Bill
wrote the 12&12 in 1953 he was in his 19th
year of sobriety, there were approximately
6,000 groups and 128,000 members. That's a
great deal of accumulated experience over
time. In the 12&12, on the 5th Step, Bill W
suggests:

"Our next problem will be to discover the
person in whom we are to confide. Here we
ought to take much care, remembering that
prudence is a virtue which carries a high
rating. Perhaps we shall need to share with
this person facts about ourselves which no
others ought to know. We shall want to speak
with someone who is experienced, who not
only has stayed dry but has been able to
surmount other serious difficulties.
Difficulties, perhaps, like our own. This
person may turn out to be one's sponsor, but
not necessarily so. If you have developed a
high confidence in him, and his temperament
and problems are close to your own, then such
a choice will be good. Besides, your sponsor
already has the advantage of knowing something
about your case."

Cheers
Arthur

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++++Message 5111. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Big Book concordance index
history?
From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/14/2008 11:10:00 AM

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I believe the second full paragraph pertains
to Hank Parkhurst who would have been two
years plus sober at the time the Doctor's
Opinion article was written.

The Third full paragraph is about Fitz Mayo
who sobered up at nearly the same time as
Hank.

Bob S.


- - - -

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of diazeztone
Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 9:56 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Big Book concordance index history?

Example today we are doing the Dr.s Opinion
and at the end they were wondering who the
two men were mentioned at the end of that
chapter. I should know but need to look them
up.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 5112. . . . . . . . . . . . Anniversary of the Oxford Group June
27
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/14/2008 12:45:00 PM

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From John Barleycorn <yakstark@msn.com>
(yakstark at msn.com)
http://hindsfoot.org/barruth.html
http://hindsfoot.org/barright.html
http://hindsfoot.org/barmole.html

The Apology That Launched a Million Amends

June 27th, 2008, will mark the 100th
anniversary of Frank Buchman's Spiritual
Awakening – one that directly linked him
to the cofounders of AA

He gave everything he had to establishing a
shelter for homeless boys in the slums of
Philadelphia. The shelters success surpassed
his budget and the six-member board of
directors insisted that he cut the amount of
food being given to his charges. He quit
instead of cutting back. Resentment consumed
him. His family despaired that he might not
come to his senses. His work was destroyed by
what he saw as the shortsightedness of others.
His health was well past the breaking point.

'Everywhere I went, I took me with me,' he
later said. During a trip to recuperate in
Europe, he exhausted the funds his father gave
him and existed on the kindness of his family
and the generosity of acquaintances. Tired and
dejected he went to an Evangelical Conference
in Keswick, England, hoping to connect with
F.B. Meyer, a famous minister he knew, for
spiritual help. Meyer was not in attendance;
another plan gone awry.

June 27, 1908, thirty year-old Frank Buchman,
a Pennsylvanian Lutheran minister, walked into
an afternoon service with 17 other people to
hear Jessie Penn Lewis preach on the cross of
Christ. And then it happened.

As Buchman sat in that Chapel, 'There was a
moment of spiritual peak of what God could do
for me. I was made a new man. My hatred was
gone ... I knew I had to write six letters to
those men I hated.'

'I am writing,' declared Buchman, 'to tell you
that I have harbored an unkind feeling toward
you -- at times I conquered it but it always
came back. Our views may differ but as
brothers we must love. I write to ask your
forgiveness and to assure that I love you and
trust by God's grace I shall never more speak
unkindly or disparagingly of you.'

Those letters of amends spawned a revolution
in Frank Buchman, a revolution that led to the
birth of Alcoholics Anonymous.

That evening, Frank was introduced to a young
Cambridge man, who upon hearing Buchman's tale
of moral regeneration made a decision to change
his own life. As Buchman described it, 'This
was the first fellow who I knew that I had
ever brought face to face with that central
experience.' For the next half century Buchman
dedicated his life to demonstrating that an
experience of God was available to anyone at
any time, regardless of race, religion, class
or nationality.

From England, Frank returned to the United
States where he went to work as the YMCA
director at Penn State University. There he
had a profound effect on campus life, due in
part to the conversion of the campus bootlegger,
who during a trip to Toronto with Frank and a
group of students from Penn State, made a
decision to change his life. After having Frank
help him by writing an amends letter to his
wife, the bootlegger never drank again and
went around the world with Frank talking about
his change.

Frank Buchman described the four years that he
spent at Penn State as the laboratory in which
he developed a practical program of action and
learned how to have honest conversations that
led people to make decisions to change their
lives.

The formula he developed was:

1. The sharing of our sins and temptations
with another Christian life given to God, and
to use sharing as witness to help others, still
unchanged, to recognize and acknowledge their
sins.

2. Surrender of our life, past, present, and
future, into God's keeping and direction.

3. Restitution to all whom we have wronged
directly or indirectly.

4. Listening to, accepting, relying on God's
guidance and carrying it out in everything we
do or say, great or small.

Sound familiar?

The application of this course of action
revolutionized the spiritual life of the
campus, and its success brought Christian
evangelists from all over the world to find
out what was happening on a backwater
campus that had been paralyzed by strife.

After Penn State, Frank went to China in 1917
where an honest conversation with a young
Sam Shoemaker helped Sam to tell him, 'I have
been a pious fraud, pretending to serve God
but actually keeping all the trump cards in
my own hands. Now I've told Him how sorry I am,
and I trust you'll forgive me for harboring
ill will against you. This sprang up the moment
you used that word sin!'

Buchman said that he freely forgave him. 'Now
what's the next step?' Shoemaker asked. The
next step was making amends to Sam's Bible
study class. The trouble was, Shoemaker told
his Chinese students, he disliked China. That
admission produced such a profound spiritual
experience in Shoemaker that it led to his
working closely with Buchman for the next
twenty-one years and brought the revolution
of 'First Century Christianity' (later known
as the Oxford Group) to people worldwide.

The message of personal revolution was
transmitted by one 'informed Christian' sharing
with another and by inviting people to 'house
parties.' If you have ever attended an AA
convention or round up you have experienced an
Oxford Group house party. Speakers were brought
in from a variety of places to share their
experience, strength and hope in both large
speaker meetings and small special interest
meetings. Men would tell their stories in
men's meetings; women in women's; there were
even forums for drug addicts, overeaters, and
drunks. At these gatherings, both speakers
and experienced members would be available
for 'personal interviews' where sharing and
surrender could take place. Then people would
be encouraged to make restitution and have a
daily 'quiet time' to receive inspiration on
how to conduct their lives.

When he was pressed for a definition of sin,
Buchman said, 'What is a sin for one person may
not be a sin for another. The true definition
of sin is that it is something that separates
you from God or from your fellows.'

In 1922, Jim Newton, a young salesman with a
taste for fast living, followed a group of
attractive young women into a hotel ballroom
thinking they were going to a dance. To his
dismay he found himself in an Oxford Group
house party at the Toy Town Tavern in
Winchengton, Massachusetts, where he heard
a message that changed his life. Buchman
referred Newton to Shoemaker who helped Newton
take stock of his life, surrender, make
restitution, and start to live a 'guided life.'
If you wish to know the Oxford Group technique
of guidance read pages 85-87 in the book
Alcoholics Anonymous.

A few years later, Jim Newton was trying to
help Bud F., the alcoholic son of his employer,
Harvey F., to change. Unable to help his
friend, Jim introduced Bud to his mentor,
Samuel Shoemaker. Sam, who had a remarkable
gift bringing people to make a decision, went
through the process with Bud who immediately
lost his obsession to drink, made amends to
his father and wife, and returned to the good
graces of his family.

Harvey F. was so impressed with the change in
his son that he convinced his fellow industri-
alists in Akron, Ohio, to help underwrite an
Oxford Group house party held in January 1933
at the Mayflower Hotel. Buchman and his team
were welcomed by the Rev. Walter Tunks, a
close friend of the F. family; also in
attendance were Henrietta Seiberling and
T. Henry and Clarace Williams who were to
become the founders of the West Hills meeting
of the Oxford Group in Akron.

Also in 1933, Shoemaker's ministry at Calvary
Church in New York City's Gramercy Park was
a hub of Oxford Group activity. There were
Oxford Group meetings held three times a week
at Calvary Church where people shared the
life changes they had discovered from applying
the Oxford Group principles. He also founded
the Calvary Mission, which was a hostel for
indigent alcoholic men.

Many important families had ties to this
Calvary Church, among them the H. family whose
eldest son Rowland was described by Bill W.
as 'a business man who had ability, good
sense and high character ... who had
floundered from one sanitarium to another.'
Rowland had returned from Europe after another
attempt to get his life in order after consult-
ing with Dr. Carl Jung. Rowland was drinking
and going to Oxford Group meetings at Calvary
Church. Among the people whom he met at
Calvary was Vic Kitchen, author of I Was a
Pagan (published in 1934), which described
his release from alcoholism, drug addiction,
and 'anything that gave me pleasure, power
or applause' in the Oxford Group. While on a
business trip to Detroit, Rowland read the
book, identified at depth, and as Shoemaker
said, 'had a change right there on the train.'
Rowland stopped drinking, reconciled with
his family, made restitution for questionable
business dealings, became active with the
Oxford Group businessmen'
s team, spoke at
meetings and encouraged others to find what
he had found.

One of the many people Rowland touched was an
old childhood friend, Edwin 'Ebby' T., who was
about to be locked up as a chronic inebriate.
Rowland, whose alcohol problem was well known,
convinced the judge to release Ebby into his
care. Two weeks later, Ebby was speaking at
Oxford Group meetings around Vermont, and after
a couple of weeks with Rowland (who had all of
six months in the group), the freshly sober
Ebby moved into Calvary Mission in New York
City and became active there.

Sober six weeks, Ebby was inspired to find
another old school friend, Bill W., who was
known to be in awful shape. Bill could not get
the change in Ebby out of his mind for he knew
his friend was a hopeless drunk like himself,
yet was sober. A few days after that, Bill
went to see Ebby at the Calvary Mission, gave
an impassioned, albeit drunken testimony from
the podium and soon after landed in Townes
Hospital. Ebby visited him there and
reacquainted Bill with the steps of the
Oxford Group whereupon Bill had his profound
white light experience, lost his compulsion to
drink and was seized with a desire to pass on
his experience to others.

When Bill was released, he and Lois immediately
started attending Oxford Group meetings at
Calvary Church and had frequent contact with
Sam Shoemaker. Lois said that they went to a
minimum of three meetings a week and attended
house parties during the first three years of
Bill's sobriety.

Six months after sobering up, Bill went to
Akron, Ohio, on a business venture that failed.
When he found himself about to enter the bar
at the same Mayflower Hotel where the Oxford
Group had met, he started searching for an to
help. That moment of desperation led him to
the Rev. Walter Tunks and ultimately to
Henrietta Seiberling who knew just the man.

A local proctologist, who thought he was a
closet drinker, had been attending the West
Hill Oxford Group meeting for two years with
his wife, his problem becoming progressively
worse. The Doctor later described his
impression of the West Hills Group, 'I was
thrown in with a crowd of people ....
I sensed that they had something I did not
have, from which I might readily profit. I
learned that it was something of a spiritual
nature, which did not appeal to me very much,
but I thought it could do no harm.'

Bill W. met with Bob S. (lovingly referred to
as Dr. Bob) on Mother's Day 1935. Bob stopped
drinking abruptly. Though he accepted Bill's
description of alcoholism as a fatal illness
and the Oxford Group steps as the solution,
Bob believed that making restitution to those
he had harmed would destroy his practice and
put his family further at risk.

A short time later, Bob drank again and was
completely demoralized. On the way to perform
a surgery, Bill steadied his friend's hand
with a bottle of beer and a 'goofball.'
Before entering the hospital, Bob told Bill,
'I am going to go through with it.' That
afternoon Bob did not return home. His wife,
Anne, and Bill were filled with dread that
Bob had gone on another binge. When Dr. Bob
returned late that night, he told his
frightened loved ones that he had been making
restitution to people to whom he had been
too afraid to admit his alcoholism. Bob S.
never took another drink.

AA's anniversary is not the day Bill W.
stopped drinking, nor the day that he met
Dr. Bob, but the day that Bob stopped
drinking and made his amends.

From 100 years ago in Keswick, to 73 years ago
in Akron, to this very moment; women and men
are proving the validity of their own personal
spiritual awakening by making amends for their
past wrongs, making restitution and rectifying
their errors.

Frank Buchman's metamorphosis was remarkable.
He developed a program for personal change
that affected homes and nations. It is a
practical program of action using the four
standards of absolute honesty, purity,
unselfishness and love. Over the past one
hundred years, Buchman's vision has been
transmitted under different names: First
Century Christian Movement, the Oxford Group,
Moral Re-Armament, and since 2001, Initiatives
of Change, which continues to heal the wounds
of history by building trust across the
world's divides.

Without Frank Buchman, those of us in today's
many anonymous programs would have no 12 steps
and no freedom from bondage. His spiritual
awakening and the action that followed indeed
launched a million amends and produced many
millions of transformed lives.

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++++Message 5113. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Big Book concordance index
history?
From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/14/2008 1:43:00 PM

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Please go to:

http://justloveaudio.com/resources.php?cat_id=4

& click on "Big Book Name and Date References."

http://justloveaudio.com/resources/Assorted/Big_Book_Name_and_Date_Reference
s.pd\

f [18]

Also, Cliff B. & the Primary Purpose Group
in Dallas is already aware of this resource.

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++++Message 5114. . . . . . . . . . . . Ignatia''s birthplace PHOTOS
From: Fiona Dodd . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/13/2008 12:05:00 PM

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PHOTOS: http://hindsfoot.org/ignatia1.html

This morning, I stood in the ruins of the
birthplace of Sr Ignatia in the company of my
old AA buddy Murdy O'B whose detective work
over the past year has been extraordinary to
say the least. We have always felt there was
something erroneous in regards Shanvalley,
Ballyheane being given as her birthplace.
Firstly all family records were in the church
in Castlebar and yet there was a church in
Ballyheane. Secondly there were no folk
memories of the family and folk memories go
back a long, long time in Ireland. Thirdly,
with such large Irish families there had to
be some family connection left behind.

So many a night on our way to and from meetings
we discussed it and last year Murdy spotted a
death notice in the paper one day which stated
Shanvalley, Burren and the name of the deceased
was a member of the Neary family and Ignatia's
mother was Barbara Neary. The registering
church for Shanvalley, Burren is Castlebar
and the pieces began to fall into place.
Murdy took a trip up to Shanvalley and it's
a townland populated by Neary's and he was
shown what is known to this day as Gavin's
Field and the ruins of the house still standing
there. The extended Neary family still live
there and one member in her 80's shared many
a memory.

It was a strange feeling standing there this
morning after an AA meeting and gazing around
imagining what it was like at the end of the
1800's. The boreen to the houses there was
only paved in the 1980's and along with the
ruins of Gavin's house stand the ruins of
many more bearing witness to the emigration
which was a fact of life here in the west of
Ireland for so long.

Fiona

<fionadodd@eircom.net>
(fionadodd at eircom.net)

PHOTOS: http://hindsfoot.org/ignatia1.html

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++++Message 5115. . . . . . . . . . . . Publication dates of AA pamphlets
current and obsolete
From: JOHN WIKELIUS . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/14/2008 10:40:00 PM

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I am seeking information regardng the date when
the original pamphlet was published, in the
case of the standard AA published pamphlets.

Some of my older pamphlets do not have a date
of origination.

I am putting together a display of AA pamphlets
and showing the changes over the years.

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++++Message 5116. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Serenity Prayer faces challenge
on authorship
From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/15/2008 7:07:00 AM

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--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, James Bliss <james.bliss@...> wrote:
>
> The article appears to be very incomplete.
> What article (at least one or two) and what
> book did Shapiro find. Seems that there
> should be the ability to verify the sources
> one way or the other and provide additional
> background as to who, what and where.
>
> Jim
>
Here is what I have--he seems to have the same ones although possibly
additional
ones as
well. The book he mentions I have not seen.

Syracuse (New York) Herald, January 16, 1936: "We need new faith in our
highest
ideals,"
says Mildred Pinkerton, executive secretary of the Syracuse YWCA. She calls
attention to
new determinations, new interests in her annual report just submitted.
Quotes
the
prayer--"Oh God, give us courage to change what must be altered, serenity to
accept what
cannot be helped, and insight to know the one from the other."

(This is the caption to a photo. The present director of the Syracuse YWCA
was
able to
find the written record of this annual report for me, but Ms. Pinkerton's
remarks are not
recorded in it.)

Ada (Oklahoma) Evening News, February 19, 1939: Mrs. Edyth Thomas Wallace,
home
counselor of Oklahoma City's public schools, spoke at a P.T.A. meeting: . .
.The
prayer,
said the speaker, of both parents should be "Oh God , give me serenity to
accept
that
which cannot be changed, give me courage to change that which can be changed
and
wisdom to tell the one from the other."

Lowell (Massachusetts) Sun, April 16, 1940: At a women's club meeting a
speaker,
Mrs.
Hildreth, ended her remarks with this statement, "God give me serenity to
accept
things I
cannot change; the courage to change those I can; and the wisdom to know the
difference."

Valley Star-Monitor Herald, Brownsville, Texas, August 17, 1941:In a talk at
a
women's
club meeting summarizing the 29th annual Farmer's Comprehensive Short
Course, a
poem
said to have been by Miss Mildred Horton, state home demonstration agent,
was
repeated:
"God, give me the courage to change/ What must be altered;/ Serenity to
accept/
What
cannot be helped/ And insight to determine/ One from the other."

Indiana (Pennsylvania) Evening Gazette, December 5, 1941: Rose Cologne,
visiting
professor at Pennsylvania State College, ended a talk with a recommendation
that
college
people try to develop "courage to change that which can be changed, serenity
to
face that
which cannot be changed, and insight to tell one from the other."

Hillsboro (Ohio) Press Gazette, April 24, 1942, in a Sunday School column:
"Oh
God, give
me serenity to accept what cannot be changed, the courage to change what can
be
changed; and the wisdom to know one form the other."

These are from actual photographic copies of the papers--I don't see how
there
could be
any mistake or trickery involved. OTOH, nothing has really changed about the
history of
the prayer, in view of the fact that one biographer is already on record
saying
that Niebuhr
wrote the prayer in 1934.

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++++Message 5117. . . . . . . . . . . . Which printings of the 1st edition
BB had red covers?
From: shakey1aa . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/15/2008 11:50:00 AM

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In this post it mentions that only the 1st ed
1st printing has a red cover. On e-bay
currently there is a book for sale that says
it has a red cover. Does anyone know if there
were some red covers in this 2nd printing or
if the book was rebound? It also has gold
lettering on the book and the spine???

Shakey Mike Gwirtz
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
going to National Archives Conv in Niagara Falls NY

- - - -

> Message 2258 from Jim Blair <jblair@...>
> (jblair at videotron.ca)
>
> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/2258
>
> Here are the changes made to the first 16 printings.
>
> The Big Book - Alcoholics Anonymous - Changes to the First Edition
>
> 1st Edition - 1st Printing
> - Title states "ONE HUNDRED MEN."
> - 29 personal stories.
> - Price 3.50$.
> - Cover is red, only printing in red.
> - Story 'Ace Full - Seven - Eleven' deleted.
> - Jacket spine and front flap do not have a print number.
> - Arabic numbers start at 'Doctor's Opinion'.
> - 400 arabic numbered pages (8 roman).
> - Stories: 10 East Coast, 18 Midwest, 1 West Coast.
> - P234-L27, typo. L26 duplicated as L27.
> - Published by Works Publishing Company.
>
> 1st Edition - 2nd Printing
> - Title states "TWO THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."
> - 28 personal stories
> - Cover changed to navy blue, some light blue.
> - Gold lettering deleted from cover, remained on spine.
> - Added Appendix II - Spiritual Experience, p399.
> - Jacket spine and front flap has print number.
> - Stayed at 400 arabic pages (8 roman)
> - Added footnote "see Appendix II", p35, 38, 72.
> - P25-L23, 80 of us to 500 of us.
> - P25-L26, 40-80 persons to 50-200 persons.
> - P63-L13, 100 people to Hundreds of People
> - P72-L03, Spiritual Experience to Awakening.
> - P72-L04, Result of These Steps to Those.
> - P175-L23, Many Hundreds to 500.
> - P234-L27, Typo corrected, 126 not repeated.
> - P391-L01, Added "Now We Are Two Thousand."
> - P397-L01, Moved "Foundation" here from p399.
>
> 1st Edition - 3rd Printing
> - Title changed - "SIX THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Personal stories remain the same thru 1:16.
> - Cover changed to light blue.
> - Reduced in thickness 1/8 and height 1/16.
> - P25-L23, 500 of us to 1000 of us.
> - P27-L01, 100 Men to Hundreds of Men.
> - P26-L13, Sober 3years to sober 5 years.
> - P264-L13, (no time) to sober 5 years.
> - P281-L09, 9 months to past 4 tears.
> - P391-L01, Now we are 2,000 to 6,000.
> - P392-L19, 3,000 letters to 12,000 letters.
> - P393-L06, Increased 20 fold to 60 fold.
> - P393-L12, 5,000 by 01/42 to 8,000 by 01/43.
> - P393-L24, 9 Groups in Cleveland to 25.
> - P393-L24, 500 members in Cleveland to I,000.
> - P393-L26, 1,000 Non-A.A. people to 2,000.
> - P398-L03, Touching to Touching Nationally.
>
> 1st Edition - 4th Printing
> - Title states "EIGHT THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Cover changed to green, last 1,500 navy blue.
> - Piv-L03, Post Box 657 to Box 658.
> - P25-L28, Added foot note "Number of Localities for A.A."
> - P27-L01, 100s of Men to 1000s of Men and Women.
> - P59-L25, Added foot note "Please See Appendix II."
> - P168-L03, 6 years ago to 8 years ago.
> - P152-L02, have been there to has been there.
> - P152-L22, The bank were doing to was doing.
> - P391-L24, Religious content to spiritual.
> - P393-L12, 8,000 by 01/43 to 10,000 by 01/44.
> - P398-L09, Works Publishing Company to Inc.
> - P398-L10, organized to originally organized.
> - P398-L10, members to older members
> - P398-L11, Added 49 gave up stock.
> - P398-L16, this book, to this book.
> - P398-L16, send money to please send money.
>
> 1st Edition - 5th Printing
> - Title states "Ten Thousand Men and Women."
> - Cover changed back to light blue, some navy.
> - Last Big Book in size.
> - Piv-L04, New York City to New York City (7).
> - P25-L28, Foot note "A.A. now in 270 localities."
> - P393-L06, Increased 60 fold to 100 fold.
> - P393-L12, 10,000 by 01/44 to 12,000 by 01/45.
> - P394-L14, Last 2 years to last 5 years.
>
> 1st Edition - 6th Printing
> - Title states "TEN THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Cover changed back to Navy blue. (same as today).
> - Reduced in thickness by 3/8 inch.
> - Piv-L04, New York City (7) to (17).
> - P397-L08, 4 non-A.A. Trustees to 8 non-A.A.
> - P397-L10, 4 non-A.A. Trustees to 8 non-A.A.
> - P398-L21, New York City(7) to (17).
>
> 1st Edition - 7th Printing
> - Title states "FOURTEEN THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Reduced in thickness 3/16 and width 3/8 inches.
> - Pii-L01, Added "WARTIME PRINTING" notice.
> - Piv-L02, Works Publishing Company to Inc.
> - P1-L13, six years ago to 1934.
> - P07-L29, 2 years ago deleted.
> - P09-L04, More than 3 years ago to many years.
> - P25-L28, Foot note "A.A. now in 385 Localities."
> - P175-L22, "Cleveland" footnote deleted.
> - P264-L18, 5 years since to in 1937
> - P273-L22, one year ago to long ago.
> - P281-L09, Past nine months to few years.
> - P331-L14, for 13 months to many years.
> - P392-L19, 12,000 letters to innumerable.
> - P393-L12, 12,000 by 1/45 to thousands a year.
> - P397-L07, Trustees to 4 A.A. Trustees.
>
> 1st Edition - 8th Printing
> - Title states "FOURTEEN THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Reduced thickness ¼, width 1/16, height 1 inch.
> - P11-L01, Has "WARTIME PRINTING" notice.
>
> 1st Edition - 9th Printing
> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Increased thickness 1/8, width 1/8, height 3/8 inches.
> - P323-L20, Two years to several years.
>
> 1st Edition - 10th Printing
> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
> - P154-L30, Abberations to Aberrations.
>
> 1st Edition - 11th Printing
> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Increased thickness 1/16, decreased height 1/8 inches.
> - P28-L22, Ex-Alcoholic to Ex-Problem Drinker.
> - P30-L06, Ex-Alcoholic to Ex-Problem Drinker.
> - P178-L20, Him to HIM.
> - P271-L16, Ex-Alcoholic to Ex-Problem Drinker.
> - P272-L06, Ex-Alcoholic to understanding
> - P330-L30, Ex-Alcoholic to Non-Drinker.
>
> 1st Edition - 12th Printing
> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Decreased height by 1/16.
>
> 1st Edition - 13th Printing
> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Reduced in width 1/16, height 1/8 .
>
> 1st Edition - 14th Printing
> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Reduced in thickness 1/16.
>
> 1st Edition - 15th Printing
> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Increased in height by 1/16.
> - Published by A.A. PUBLISHING, INC.
>
> 1st Edition - 16th Printing
> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Increased width 1/16, decreased height 1/16.
>
> Last printing of the First Edition.
>

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++++Message 5118. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Fifth steps in early AA
From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/15/2008 6:31:00 AM

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I hope to shed light rather than generate heat.
Terry can speak for himself but I do not
"advocate revisionist speculation"; I was
merely asking a question, and I'm glad the
moderator took a less censorious view than
Art. There is a certain amount of geriatric
egg-sucking going on here. Many of us have
studied the sources, both AA and non-AA, e.g.,
Not God (Kurtz), Frank Buchman (Lean), Getting
Better (Robertson), Changed by Grace (Chesnut),
Bill W (Thomsen), Bill W (Hartigan), Twice
Born Men, More Twice Born Men, Broken
Earthenware (Begbie), New Wine (Mel B), By
the power of God (Dick B), Sister Ignatia
(Darrah), as well as Alcoholics Anonymous
Comes of Age, Pass It On, Dr Bob and the Good
Oldtimers, Grapevine digital archive etc., etc.

Form criticism and hermeneutics are vital to a
fully informed understanding of the text, but
in the old saying, why look in the crystal ball
when you can read the book? The Big Book says
"Here are the Steps WE took which are suggested
as a program of recovery (emphasis added)." Now,
does that or does that not include Dr Bob and
Bill W. and the rest of the "first 100"?

If we are to believe Art's convoluted caveats
the Book should say, "We did not take these
steps exactly as they are written here but
this is how we recommend them to you." But
of course it says no such thing. The early
AA's clearly believed they had taken the steps
in the way they passed them on to the rest of
us - either that or they were being dishonest.

Bill wrote (of the original six steps): "...
our literature would have to be as clear and
comprehensive as possible. Our steps would have
to be more explicit. There must be not be a
single loophole through which a rationalising
alcoholic could wiggle out... Thus we could
better get the distant reader over a barrel,
and at the same time we might be able to
broaden and deepen the spiritual implications
of our whole presentation..."

The following pages in Alcoholics Anonymous
Comes of Age record the struggles of the early
fellowship in finally agreeing the 12 Steps.
And even at the end of the process there were
dissenters, viz: "For a while it looked as if
we would bog down into permanent disagreement.
Despairing of satisfying everyone, I finally
asked that I might be the final judge of what
the book said. Seeing that we would get nowhere
without such a point of decision, MOST of the
group agreed..." (again, emphasis added).

Is it anywhere recorded that Dr Bob did not
agree with the 12 Steps as they were finally
agreed? If he concurred then he most surely
took Step Five, with or without an AA member,
but as I said in my original posting there
seems to be no record of it.

The foreword to the first edition of the Big
Book (1939) says, inter alia, "The only
requirement for membership (of AA) is an
honest desire to stop drinking." So there is
no requirement on anyone to take any of the
Steps, including number five.

- - - -

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.comFrom: ArtSheehan@msn.comDate: Fri, 11 Jul
2008 20:41:38 -0500Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Fifth steps in early AA

Dear Laurie and Terry

With all due respect, you are advocating revisionist speculation not AA
history.
AAHistoryLovers is supposed to focus on fact-based information as opposed to
editorial-based imagination. Bill W sobered up in December 1934. Dr Bob
sobered
up in June 1935. The 12 Steps were first drafted in December 1938. When Bill
W
sobered up there was no such thing even remotely approaching the notion of
doing
the equivalent of a "5th Step" with "people outside of AA." There was no AA.
The
"schoolmate" who visited Bill in the hospital was Ebby T. Bill considered
him to
be his sponsor throughout his life (even though Ebby had his difficulties
staying sober). The idea of alluding to Ebby as "people outside AA" is
absurd.Bill W met Father Dowling in December 1940 at the 24th St Club in NY
City. He reputedly was Bill W's "spiritual sponsor" throughout his life.
Although he was not an alcoholic, to portray Fr Dowling as "people outside
AA"
isalso absurd. He started AA in St Louis, MO. When Dr Bob had his last drink
there was no such thing as "Steps." Both of you seem to be attempting to
retrofit what exists today to something that didn't exist back then. Dr Bob
joined the Oxford Group in 1933. This was approximately two years before he
met
Bill W. During the first few years of its existence, the AA Fellowship was
affiliated with the Oxford Group in both NY and Akron. CoreOxford Group
principles consisted of the "Four Absolutes" of honesty, unselfishness,
purity
and love - the "Five C's" (confidence, confession, conviction, conversion
and
continuance) and the "Five Procedures" (1. Give in to God, 2. Listen to
God's
direction, 3. Check guidance, 4. Restitutionand 5. Sharing for witness and
confession). Dr Bob would certainly not have been a stranger to practicing
the
principle of "Confession." Henrietta Sieberling organized an OG meeting at
the
home of T Henry and Clarace Williams in Akron specifically to help Dr Bob
with
hisdrinking. Dr Bob confessed openly about his drinking but could not
stop.The
OG never had anything that they called or considered to be Steps. The idea
and
evolution of Steps derived in the latter 1930s from what was called the
"alcoholic squads" of the OG in Akron and NY. It initially took the formof a
word-of-mouth 6-Step program. Various versions of the 6 Steps can be found
in
(1) Earl T's Big Book Story "He Sold Himself Short" pg 263 4th edition (2)
"AA
Comes of Age" pg 160 and "Pass It On" pg 197 and (3) a July 1953 Grapevine
Article titled "A Fragment of History" which can also befound in "The
Language
of the Heart" pg 200. In various forms, up to December 1938, the equivalent
of
what later became Steps 5 and 10 were stated as either: (1) "Confession" or
(2)
"We confessed or shared our shortcomings with another person in confidence"
or
(3) "We got honest with another person, in confidence." There was no
"admitted
to God" and "to ourselves."It may sound like AA heresy, but the Big Book is
not
the be-all and end-all on the Steps. When Bill W wrote the bulk of the Big
Book
basic text in 1938 he was in his fourth year of sobriety, there were
approximately 100 members and there were two groups. When Bill wrote the
12&12
in 1953 he was in his 19th year of sobriety, there were approximately 6,000
groups and 128,000 members. That's a great deal of accumulated experience
over
time. In the 12&12, on the 5th Step, Bill W suggests:"Our next problem will
be
to discover the person in whom we are to confide. Here we ought to take much
care, remembering that prudence is a virtue which carries a high rating.
Perhaps
we shall need to share with this person facts about ourselves which no
others
ought to know. We shall want to speak with someone who is experienced, who
not
only has stayed dry but has been able tosurmount other serious difficulties.
Difficulties, perhaps, like our own. This person may turn out to be one's
sponsor, but not necessarily so. If you have developed a high confidence in
him,
and his temperament and problems are close to your own, then such a choice
will
be good. Besides, your sponsor already has the advantage of knowing
something
about your case."

CheersArthur

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++++Message 5119. . . . . . . . . . . . Hazelden revisions: Little Red Book
and Twenty-Four Hours
From: dave_landuyt . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/18/2008 1:37:00 AM

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Does anyone have information on why, and in
what way, Hazelden revised subsequent editions
of "The Little Red Book" and "Twenty-Four Hours
a Day"?

Thanks for any input
Dave

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++++Message 5120. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Which printings of the 1st
edition BB had red covers?
From: bikergaryg@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/16/2008 1:02:00 PM

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From <bikergaryg@aol.com>
(bikergaryg at aol.com)

From my limited understanding I believe that
a few second printings of the first edition
had red covers. the first printing was 1939
and the second printing 1941.

in the wind
Gary Govier

- - - - -

From: DudleyDobinson@aol.com
(DudleyDobinson at aol.com)

Hi Mike,

eBay item 150269984282 finished up selling for
a good price. Would still like the book to be
checked by a professional.

Earl Husband the late archivist from Chicago
area had a copy listed a couple of years ago.
The only other copy I have heard of was in a
Danish collector's possession back in 2001.

The story with the latest edition is that
5000 red bindings were ordered with the
First printing and 4,730 were actually used
and the remainder used with the Second
printing.

I have no way of verifying this. A bookbinding
expert would be the only person who could help.
The dilemna of course is having one to look at.
Perhaps I should mention that I bought my
copy of the First from Earl Husband and I have
some doubts about whether it has been rebound.
It looks too good! But then I remind myself
that my middle name is Thomas.

In fellowship - Dudley - From the Emerald Isles

- - - -

Original message #5117 from Shakey Mike Gwirtz
<shakey1aa@yahoo.com> (shakey1aa at yahoo.com)

Message 2258 from Jim Blair says that only the
1st ed 1st printing has a red cover. On e-bay
currently there is a book for sale that says
it has a red cover. Does anyone know if there
were some red covers in this 2nd printing or
if the book was rebound? It also has gold
lettering on the book and the spine???

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++++Message 5121. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Which printings of the 1st
edition BB had red covers?
From: Cherie'' H. . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/18/2008 8:05:00 AM

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There is a 50th Anniversary Australian edition
that has a red cover and looks like you
described. It is a commemorative Edition
printed in 1995. I have a copy that was sent
to me by a friend in Australia. I am now told
that this is a rare book, even though many
were printed, not many can be found today,
and I have heard they sell for quite a bit
on ebay, but there's nothing in the world
would make me give up mine.

AA Hugs
Cherie'
Mt. Clemens, MI
DOS 04/26/01

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++++Message 5122. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Spiritual not religious
From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/15/2008 11:56:00 AM

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"The two words (spirituality and religion)
can be used interchangeably ... Attempts to
draw a contrasting distinction between the
two words rest far more in the secularism of
contemporary AA rather than in AA's historical
roots."

Really? Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age (pp.
162ff my version): "... the hot debate about
the Twelve Steps and the (Big) book's contents
was doubled and redoubled. There were
conservative, liberal and radical viewpoints
... Fitz thought the book ought to be
Christian in the doctrinal sense of the word
and that it should say so. He was in favor
of using Biblical terms and expressions to
make this clear ... The liberals were the
largest contingent and they had no objection
to the word 'God' throughout the book but
they were dead set against any other
theological proposition. They would have
nothing to do with doctrinal issues (i.e.
religion). SPIRITUALITY, YES. BUT RELIGION,
NO -- POSITIVELY NO (emphasis added)."

(Circa 1938 - historical enough?)

- - - -

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.comFrom: ArtSheehan@msn.comDate: Sun, 6 Jul
2008
21:00:18 -0500Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: Spiritual not religious

Hi JohnRegrettably there is much repeated in AA that has no basis in fact.
Early
AA was very "pro religion" but it never attempted to project itself as a
religion. When too few words are cited it is usually at the expense of
context.
And I don't agree at all with the context you are portraying. This is rather
long reply since you are seeking citations.From my own investigations it
seems
that attempts to draw a distinction between the words "spiritual" and
"religious" are flawed and sophomoric. The two words can be used
interchangeably
based on just about any dictionary. Do a search on the internet for the text
string "definition of spiritual."Almost every return that derives from a
dictionary will define the word "spiritual" as "religious" or "of religion"
or
"of the soul" (spirit). Attempts to draw a contrasting distinction between
the
two words rest farmore in the secularism of contemporary AA rather than in
AA's
historical roots. Many of AA's early historical friends were members of the
clergy and their influence was profound. Bill W often stated that AA's two
best
friendswere medicine and religion.Over the past two decades the rise of
secularism has spawned the notion of the words "religion" or "religious" to
almost be pejoratives. I find this very disturbing. Also be careful to not
be
too selective in the sparse citing of Bill W and the Big Book -- both cite
many
favorable descriptions of"religion" or "religious." For example:From Bill
W's
address to the 1960 National Clergy Conference On Alcoholism:(1)
"Excellencies
and Friends: My thanks to Father Ray for his introduction. He has us off to
an
appropriate start. This hour with you is most meaningful to me and I trust
it
will be to you and to A.A. as a whole. Every thoughtful A.A. realizes that
the
divine grace, which has always flowed through the Church, is the ultimate
foundation on which AA rests. Our spiritual origins are Christian ..."(2)
"...
It now occurs to me that it may be profitable if we were to review the
origins
of AA; to take a look at some of its under-lying mechanisms -- an interior
look
as it were. Of course I am here reflecting my own views, and some of these
are
bound to be speculative. At any rate, here they are.Though AA roots are in
the
centuries-old Christian community, there seems little doubt that in an
immediate
sense our fellowship began in the office of the much-respected Dr. Carl Jung
of
Zurich ..."(3) "... Now a final thought. Many a non-alcoholic clergyman asks
these questions about Alcoholics Anonymous: "Why do clergymen so often fail
with
alcoholics, when AA so often succeeds? Is it possible that the grace of AA
is
superior to that of the Church? Is Alcoholics Anonymous a new religion,
acompetitor of the Church?If these misgivings had real substance, they would
be
serious indeed. But, as I have already indicated, Alcoholics Anonymous
cannot in
the least be regarded as a new religion. Our Twelve Steps have no
theological
content,except that which speaks of "God as we under-stand Him." This means
that
each individual AA member may define God according to whatever faith or
creed he
may have. Therefore there isn't the slightest interference with thereligious
views of any of our membership. The rest of the Twelve Steps define moral
attitudes and helpful practices, all of them precisely Christian in
character.
Therefore, as far as they go, the Steps are good Christianity; indeed they
are
good Catholicism, something which Catholic writers have affirmed more than
once.Neither does AA exert the slightest religious authority over its
members:
No one is compelled to believe anything. No one is compelled to meet
membership
conditions. No one is obliged to pay anything. Therefore we have no system
of
authority, spiritual or temporal, that is comparable to or in the least
competitive with the Church. At the center of our society we have a Board
ofTrustees. This body is accountable yearly to a Conference of elected
Delegates. These Delegates represent the conscience and desire of AA as
regards
functional or service matters. Our Tradition contains an emphaticinjunction
that
these Trustees may never constitute themselves as a government -- they are
to
merely provide certain services that enable AA as a whole to function. The
same
principles apply at our group and area level.Dr. Bob, my co-partner, had his
own
religious views. For whatever they may be worth, I have my own. But both of
us
have gone heavily on record to the effect that these personal views and
preferences can never under anyconditions be injected into the AA program as
a
working part of it. AA is a sort of spiritual kindergarten, but that is all.
Never could it be called a religion.Nor should any clergyman, because he
does
not happen to be a channel of grace to alcoholics, feel that he or his
Church is
lacking in grace. No real question of grace is involved at all - it is just
a
question of who can besttransmit God's abundance. It so happens that we who
have
suffered alcoholism, we who can identify so deeply with other sufferers, are
the
ones usually best suited for this parti-cular work. Certainly no clergyman
ought
to feel any inferiority just because he himself is not an alcoholic! Then,
as I
have already emphasized, AA has actually derived all of its principles,
directly
or indirectly, from the Church.Ours, gentlemen, is a debt of gratitude far
beyond any ability of mine to express. On behalf of members everywhere, I
give
you our deepest thanks for the warm understanding and the wonderful
co-operation
that you haveeverywhere afforded us. Please also have my gratitude for the
privilege of being with you this morning. This is an hour that I shall
remember
always ..."From the Q&A that followed Bill's address:(4) "... When these
Steps
were shown to my friends, their reactions were quite mixed indeed. Some
argued
that six steps had worked fine, so why twelve? From our agnostic contingent
there were loud cries of too much"God." Others objected to an expression,
which
I had included which suggested getting on one's knees while in prayer. I
heavily
resisted these objections for months. But finally did take out my statement
about a suitable prayer-ful posture and I finally went along with that now
tremendously important expression, "God as we understand Him" - this
expression
having been coined, I think, by one of our former atheist members. This was
indeed a ten-strike. That one has since enabled thousands to join AA who
would
have otherwise gone away. It enabled people of fine religious training and
those
of none at all to associate freely and to work together. It made one's
religion
the business of the AA member himself and not that of his society.That AA's
Twelve Steps have since been in such high esteem by the Church, that members
of
the Jesuit Order have repeatedly drawn attention to the similarity between
them
and the Ignatian Exercises, is a matter for ourgreat wonder and gratitude
indeed
..."(5) From the Foreword to the Second Edition Big Book:"... Another reason
for
the wide acceptance of A.A. was the ministration of friends -- friends in
medicine, religion, and the press, together with innumerable others who
became
our able and persistent advocates. Without such support, A.A. could have
made
only the slowest progress. Some of the recommendations of A.A.'s early
medical
and religious friends will be found further on in this book. Alcoholics
Anonymous is not a religious organization. Neither does A.A. take any
particular
medical point of view, though we cooperate widely with the men of medicine
as
well as with the men of religion. Alcohol being no respecter of persons, we
are
an accurate cross section of America, and in distant lands, the same
democratic
evening-up process is now going on. By personal religious affiliation, we
include Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Hindus, and a sprinkling of Moslems
and
Buddhists. More than 15% of us are women ..."(6) From Bill's Story"... The
door
opened and he stood there, fresh-skinned and glowing. There was something
about
his eyes. He was inexplicably different. What had happened?I pushed a drink
across the table. He refused it. Disappointed but curious, I wondered what
had
got into the fellow. He wasn't himself. "Come, what's this all about?" I
queried. He looked straight at me. Simply, but smilingly,he said, "I've got
religion ..."(7) From We Agnostics"... We, who have traveled this dubious
path,
beg you to lay aside prejudice, even against organized religion. We have
learned
that whatever the human frailties of various faiths may be, those faiths
have
given purpose and direction to millions. People of faith have a logical idea
of
what life is all about. Actually, we used to have no reasonable conception
whatever. We used to amuse our-selves by cynically dissecting
spiritualbeliefs
and practices when we might have observed that many spiritually-minded
persons
of all races, colors, and creeds were demon-strating a degree of stability,
happiness and usefulness which we should have sought ourselves ..."(8) From
Into
Action"... We must be entirely honest with somebody if we expect to live
long or
happily in this world. Rightly and naturally, we think well before we choose
the
person or persons with whom to take this intimate and confidential step.
Those
of us belonging to a religious denomination which requires confession must,
and
of course, will want to go to the properly appointed authority whose duty it
is
to receive it. Though we have no religious connection, wemay still do well
to
talk with someone ordained by an established religion. We often find such a
person quick to see and understand our problem. Of course, we sometimes
encounter people who do not understand alcoholics ...""... If circumstances
warrant, we ask our wives or friends to join us in morning meditation. If we
belong to a religious denomination which requires a definite morning
devotion,
we attend to that also. If not members of religious bodies, we sometimes
select
and memorize a few set prayers whichemphasize the principles we have been
discussing. There are many helpful books also. Suggestions about these may
be
obtained from one's priest, minister, or rabbi. Be quick to see where
religious
people are right. Makeuse of what they offer ..."(9) From Working With
Others"... Your prospect may belong to a religious denomination. His
religious
education and training may be far superior to yours. In that case he is
going to
wonder how you can add anything to what he already knows. But he will be
curious
to learn why his own convictions have not worked and why yours seem to work
so
well. He may be an example of the truth that faith alone is insufficient. To
be
vital, faith must be accompanied by self sacrifice and unselfish,
constructive
action. Let him see that you are not there to instruct him in religion.
Admit
that he probably knows more about it than you do, but call to his attention
the
fact that however deep his faith and knowledge, he could not have applied it
or
he would not drink. Perhaps your story will help him see where he has failed
to
practice the very precepts he knows so well. We represent no particular
faith or
denomination. We are dealing only with general principles common to most
denominations ..."(10) From The Family Afterward"... Alcoholics who have
derided
religious people will be helped by such contacts. Being possessed of a
spiritual
experience, the alcoholic will find he has much in common with these people,
though he may differ with them on many matters. If he does not argue about
religion, he will make new friends and is sure to find new avenues of
usefulness
and pleasure. He and his family can be a bright spot in such congregations.
He
may bring new hope and new courage to many a priest, minister, or rabbi, who
gives his all tominister to our troubled world. We intend the foregoing as a
helpful suggestion only. So far as we are concerned, there is nothing
obligatory
about it. As non-denominational people, we cannot make up others' minds
forthem.
Each individual should consult his own conscience ..."========In just about
every mention of "not religious" it seems that Bill's context was that AA is
not
affiliated with any specific religious denomination and matters of religion
are
solely up to each individual member to define for themselves -- Bill very
definitely was not attempting to distance himself from religion. Two more
citations that might be interesting concerning the Oxford Group and its
influence on the principles embodied in the Steps. In a July 14, 1949 letter
to
the Rev Sam Shoemaker Bill W wrote "So far as I am concerned, and Dr Smith
too,
the Oxford Group seeded AA. It was our spiritual wellspring at the
beginning."
In AA Comes of Age (pg 39) Bill also wrote: "Early AA got its ideas of
self-examination, acknowledgment of character defects, restitution for harm
done
and working with others straight from the Oxford Groups and directly from
Sam
Shoemaker their former leader in America and from nowhere else."

CheersArthur

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++++Message 5123. . . . . . . . . . . . How many copies of the Big Book
printed in each printing?
From: Dick . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/17/2008 9:35:00 PM

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I know I've seen this before, but I can't
find it by searching the archives, and
I can't find it anywhere else on line ....
Can anyone tell me the actual sizes of the
print runs for each of the printings of the
Big Book? Or suggest where I can find them.

Thanx
Dick

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++++Message 5124. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Hazelden revisions: Little Red
Book and Twenty-Four Hours
From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/18/2008 5:30:00 PM

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At 00:37 7/18/2008, dave_landuyt wrote:

>Does anyone have information on why, and in
>what way, Hazelden revised subsequent editions
>of "The Little Red Book" and "Twenty-Four Hours
>a Day"?
>
> Thanks for any input
> Dave
>
>
>
>------------------------------------

Hazelden took over publication of Richmond Walker's Twenty-Four Hours
a Day book, they say, in 1954. My best guess of the number of
distinct printings they put out between then and the 1975 copyright
is seven. These can be distinguished from each other by the
Hazelden's address, what logo they used, and its location(s). None of
these had a publication date nor a copyright and all had rounded
corners on the covers.

Hazelden came out with a revised edition with a 1975 copyright. Some
of these even have printing numbers and some were printed by other
companies.

I won't hazard a guess as to why the changes were made. Most changes
render the book gender neutral. They also used American English
spelling in many cases, correcting Walker's tendency to use British
spelling.

I will give a couple of examples.

Entry for April 6, old version: Every alcoholic has a personality
problem. He drinks to escape from life, to counteract a feeling of
loneliness or inferiority, or because of some emotional conflict
within himself, so that he cannot adjust himself to life. His
alcoholism is a symptom of his personality disorder. An alcoholic
cannot stop drinking unless he finds a way to solve his personality
problem. That's why going on the wagon doesn't solve anything. That's
why taking the pledge usually doesn't work.

New version: All alcoholics have personality problems. They drink to
escape from life, to counteract feelings of loneliness or
inferiority, or because of some emotional conflict within them, so
that they cannot adjust themselves to life. Alcoholics cannot stop
drinking unless they find a way to solve their personality problems.
That's why going on the wagon doesn't solve anything. That's why
taking the pledge usually doesn't work.

Entry for May 27, old version: In twelfth-step work, the fifth thing
is continuance. Continuance means our staying with the prospect after
he has started on the new way of living. We must stick with him and
not let him down. We must encourage him to go to meetings regularly
for fellowship and help. He will learn that keeping sober is a lot
easier in the fellowship of others who are trying to do the same
thing. We must continue to help him by going to see him regularly or
telephoning him or writing him so that he doesn't get out of touch
with A.A. Continuance means good sponsorship. Do I care enough about
another alcoholic to continue with him as long as necessary?

New version: In twelfth-step work, the fifth thing is continuance.
Continuance means our staying with prospects after they have started
on the new way of living. We must stick with them and not let them
down. We must encourage them to go to meetings regularly for
fellowship and help. They will learn that keeping sober is a lot
easier in the fellowship of others who are trying to do the same
thing. We must continue to help prospects by going to see them
regularly or telephoning them or writing them so that they don't get
out of touch with A.A. Continuance means good sponsorship. Do I care
enough about other alcoholics to continue with them as long as necessary?
These are typical of the changes made but Hazelden did not change all
the references to male alcoholics. See April 5th for an example of this.

Hazelden took over publishing the Little Red Book some time in the
1960s. The first of the smaller, when compared with the Coll-Webb
printings, format had zip codes with Hazelden's address but did not
have ISBN numbers. That would place publication in the middle 60s.
These had a copyright by Coll-Webb dated 1957. They revised the LRB
at that time so the page references corresponded with the new
pagination of the Second Edition of the Big Book. A very brief
comparison of a dozen or so pages of an early printing and one with a
1970 copyright shows no differences. That is not to say there are no
differences, I just did not find any. I also am not aware of the date
of the current copyright.

There were a number of changes made to the LRB in the first
half-dozen printings from 1946-1950, but the question addressed the
changes Hazelden made.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 5125. . . . . . . . . . . . Serenity Prayer Revisited
From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/24/2008 10:31:00 AM

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I have come across another blurb on the
serenity prayer and uses it as an example of
the oral transmission of prayers:

<http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=355>

This appears to be a web site at the
University of Pennsylvania.

It traces ten versions of the prayer and
once again gives no satisfactory answer to
the question of who wrote it and when.

I note once again that Shapiro's work is
based on what can be found on the web and is
thusly limited by that factor, but there
were a lot of versions extant.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

- - - -

http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=355

The serenity memeJuly 14, 2008 @ 1:31 pm
Filed by Benjamin Zimmer under Linguistic history

As reported in the New York Times and Time
Magazine, Yale law librarian and quotation-
hunter extraordinaire Fred Shapiro has
uncovered evidence undermining the long-held
attribution of "The Serenity Prayer" to the
American theologian Reinhold Niebuhr.
Niebuhr's family originally claimed that
he composed the prayer in the summer of 1943,
but Shapiro has uncovered variations on the
theme going back to 1936 in various American
publications. (The first printed attribution
to Niebuhr is actually from 1942.) Shapiro
lays out his evidence in the Yale Alumni
Magazine, followed by a rebuttal by Niebuhr's
daughter Elisabeth Sifton.

What's particularly fascinating about Shapiro's
documentary evidence is how the early citations
all fit a general formula and yet show a
divergence in phrasing reminiscent of the
Telephone game. Regardless of how much claim
her father ultimately has to originating the
prayer, Sifton is correct to point out that
"prayers are presented orally, circulate
orally, and become famous orally long before
they are put on paper." It's clear that by
the time the prayer found its way into print
in the '30s and '40s, the oral transmission
of the meme was already well under way, as
illustrated by the mutations it underwent in
the retelling.

Below are ten variants of the prayer cited in
Shapiro's article, with the final one from
1943 being Niebuhr's preferred version,
according to his daughter. I've arranged them
in tabular form so that the formula is more
obvious. What God is being asked to grant
consists of three noun phrases, which we can
label SERENITY, COURAGE, and WISDOM. Note
that in a few of these early cases, COURAGE
actually precedes SERENITY; I've marked these
with (1) and (2) to indicate the actual order
of the NPs in the source texts.

O God, give us
serenity to accept what cannot be helped (2)
courage to change what must be altered (1)
and insight to know the one from the other
1936

we may have
an understanding and serenity to face what cannot be changed (2)
the courage to change what should be altered (1)
and the wisdom to recognize one from the other
1938

oh God, give me
serenity to accept that which cannot be changed
courage to change that which can be changed
and wisdom to tell the one from the other
1939

God give me
serenity to accept things I cannot change
the courage to change those I can
and the wisdom to know the difference
1940

we must have
the serenity to accept what we cannot change within ourselves
the courage to attempt to change what we can
and the wit to know one from the other
1941

God, give me
serenity to accept what cannot be helped (2)
the courage to change what must be altered (1)
and insight to determine one from the other
1941

try to develop
serenity to face that which cannot be changed (2)
courage to change that which can be changed (1)
and insight to tell one from the other
1941

O God, give me
serenity to accept what cannot be changed
the courage to change what can be changed
and the wisdom to know one from the other
1942

give me
the patience to accept those things which I cannot change
the courage to change those things which can be changed
and the wisdom to know the difference
1942

God, give us
grace to accept with serenity the things that cannot be changed
courage to change the things that should be changed
and the wisdom to distinguish the one from the other
1943

Given the amount of variation in the prayer's
form, it takes a lot of clever searching
through enormous databases of digitized texts
to trace its early transmission. Shapiro
long ago turned this type of linguistic
investigation into an art form, as is on
display in his masterwork, the Yale Book
of Quotations. As databases become more
powerful in their search functionality and
broader in the scope of their source material,
tracking these memetic mutations will
increasingly become a game that we can all
take part in.

[My standard warning: Google Book Search is
getting better and better for this sort of
research, but it's plagued by misdating
problems, particularly with serials like
journals and magazines. So if you think
you've trumped Shapiro by finding a version
of the prayer from, say, 1900, take a close
look at the metadata provided by Google for
the text. More often than not, a deceptively
early dating in the search results actually
refers to the first year of the serial's
publication.]

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++++Message 5126. . . . . . . . . . . . Barry Leach
From: Charlie Bishop Jr. . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/23/2008 9:14:00 PM

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two questions...

When did Barry Leach die?

How long was he Lois Wilson's chauffeur,
go-fer, nurse, companion at home and numerous
AA events?

What period of years...from ... to ...?

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++++Message 5127. . . . . . . . . . . . Earliest versions of the Little Red
Book
From: dave_landuyt . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/23/2008 7:16:00 PM

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What were the substantive changes made in the
earliest versions of the "Little Red Book"?
What do the changes tell us about Dr. Bob's
intent to (clarify/expand?) upon the original
text?

Thank You for any and all opinions - Dave

- - - -

From Glenn C. <glennccc@sbcglobal.net>
(glennccc at sbcglobal.net)

See http://hindsfoot.org/ed02.html for a
few of the differences between the 1946 and
the 1949 versions.

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++++Message 5128. . . . . . . . . . . . Were the 12 steps Harper''s
suggestion?
From: James Flynn . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/22/2008 7:47:00 PM

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Two different accounts of the role of Harper &
Brothers in the writing of the Big Book:

FIRST VERSION:

"Pass It On" (the conference biography of
Bill W.) pages 193-194 (the Harper offer,
which was for $1,500, was rejected by the
AA people)

and pages 196-199 (the writing of the twelve
steps came much later and had nothing to do
with the Harper & Brothers offer).

"Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age" pages
153-155 and pages 159-163 give essentially
the same story as the one given in "Pass
It On."

SECOND VERSION:

An AA History talk by Jim Burwell in which he
gives his own recollections of what happened
with regard to Harper & Brothers:
http://www.xa-speakers.org/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=1663

DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE TWO VERSIONS:

According to Jim Burwell the offer was for
three thousand dollars. According to Pass It
On and AA Comes of Age the offer was for an
advance of fifteen hundred dollars to be
deducted from the total royalties once the
book was published.

At any rate, regardless of whether the amount
was three thousand dollars or fifteen hundred
dollars, Hank Parker thought it was suspicious
that Harper & Brothers was willing to make
such such a generous offer and proposed that
AA publish the book on its own so that AA
could keep most of the profits. Hank's idea
of self-publishing the book was the beginning
of the Works Publishing Company.

My larger point however was to point out that
according to Jim Burwell it was Harper &
Brothers' idea to include a program of
recovery, aka the twelves steps, in the Big
Book in order to make the book more marketable.

Also I wanted to make the larger point that
the "first 100" may have actually gotten
sober before the 12 steps (as such) were
written and that writing the steps were an
afterthought based on a publisher's suggestion.

Personally I don't know what to believe
since alcoholics rarely allow the truth to
stand in the way of a good story.

Sincerely, Jim Flynn

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++++Message 5129. . . . . . . . . . . . Barry L. and Bill W''s copy of the
Big Book manuscript
From: Kilroy . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/25/2008 6:21:00 PM

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Hi everybody, while on the subject of Barry L.,
I have heard that Lois gave Barry Bill W's
original copy of the Big Book Manuscript.
Can anyone tell me where it is now?

Kilroy W.
Philadelphia PA

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++++Message 5130. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Barry L. and Bill W''s copy of
the Big Book manuscript
From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/26/2008 3:33:00 PM

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From: <jlobdell54@hotmail.com>
(jlobdell54 at hotmail.com)

The corrected multilith copy of the BB given
by Lois to Barry L is the copy that was
auctioned twice at Sotheby's within the last
couple of years, once for more than $1 million,
once for slightly less. Check aaholygrail on
the net for details.

- - - -

From: "Arthur S" <ArtSheehan@msn.com>
(ArtSheehan at msn.com)

Lois gave Barry the mark-up manuscript (a
one-of-a-kind gem).

Barry reputedly passed it on to his nephew
who auctioned it for sizable sum (around a
million and a half in 2004).

It resold to the current for a steep decline
(around 900 thousand).

Currently the saga of the mark-up manuscript
can be found at

http://www.aaholygrail.com/3.html

The site has some very nice graphics and
reveals the name of the author of "Ace Full
- Seven - Eleven" as Del T.

Cheers
Arthur

- - - -

From: "lester112985" <lgother@optonline.net>
(lgother at optonline.net)

This manuscript was just sold recently at
auction. My sponsor and I had the wonderful
fortune of spending several hours reviewing
and photographing this awesome peice of AA
history. Here is a site of the new owner of
manuscript: http://www.aaholygrail.com/3.html
Hope you have the same spiritual experience
with it as I did. God Bless!

Lester Gother
Area 44
Northern New Jersey

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++++Message 5131. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Barry L. and Bill W''s copy of
the Big Book manuscript
From: rick . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/25/2008 9:17:00 PM

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The “Printer’s Manuscript” that Bill had kept
was the actual annotated multilith that was
taken to Cornwall Press in early February 1939.
It contained all of the last-minute edits with
handwritten notes and changes from Bill,
Hank P., and a few others (how about some
things from the book publisher, too? anything
can be possible). This ‘original copy’ has
great provenance; one greatly historical
item that was saved over the years.

Lois retained it after Bill died and gifted
it (1980s?) to Barry L. as a token of her
affection for his friendship. A few say that
it was a collateral compensation for the low
AAWS payment for his work on "Living Sober,"
or, more likely his efforts to help write
"Lois Remembers."

Someone performed conservation on this
manuscript at some point, too--- it may have
been deacidified and encapsulated by Barry’s
family or immediately prior to the Sotheby’s
Auction House offering in 2004. Bill P. of
Minnesota (rest his soul) was one AA archivist
who verified its authenticity when it was
placed on the auction block, and the sellers
(Barry’s heirs) accepted a telephoned bid
from someone in California for 1.58 million
dollars. So, it stayed in private hands.

In 2007, it returned to the auction block
(Sotheby’s) and sold for just under a million
dollars. The buyers made a few online
announcements of pending availability for
excerpts, but I hadn’t seen much more about
its accessibility since the months after its
last purchase.

It remains in private hands.

Rick, Illinois

At the time of the first sale I shared this
quip at a local presentation on Big Book
history, “you might not get drunk buying your
way through AA historical treasures, but you
sure should be ready to spend a lot of cash…”
In a perfect world the “Printer’s Manuscript”
would have been contributed and placed in
the AA Archives at GSO. Again, anything is
possible!---R.

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++++Message 5133. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Were the 12 steps Harper''s
suggestion?
From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/25/2008 9:03:00 PM

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Hi Jim

The idea that Exman or Harper suggested the
Steps has no basis in fact.

The main reason for Harper/Eugene Exman's
involvement was due to the search for funds
to sustain the book project. In September 1938,
board Trustee Frank Amos arranged a meeting
between Bill W and Exman (Religious Editor of
Harper Brothers publishers). Exman offered
Bill a $1,500 advance ($21,429 today) on the
rights to the book. The Alcoholic Foundation
Board urged acceptance of the offer. Instead,
Hank P (Parkhurst not Parker) persuaded Bill
to form Works Publishing Co. and sold stock
at $25 par value ($357 today). 600 shares were
issued: Hank and Bill received 200 shares each,
200 shares were sold to others. Later, 30
shares of preferred stock, at $100 par value
($1,429 today) were sold as well.

In AA Comes of Age (p 155) Bill W writes "Still
much disturbed about the whole business, I
went back to Gene Exman and frankly explained
to him what was about to happen. To my utter
amazement, he agreed, quite contrary to his
own interest, that a society like ours ought
to control and publish its own literature.
Moreover, he felt that very possibly we could
do this with success. Though Gene's opinion
did not register at all when it was transmitted
to the Trustees, it did give Henry and me
the kind of encouragement we so much needed."

In regards to funds to finance the book, as it
turned out, at the urging of Dr Silkworth,
Charles Towns loaned Hank and Bill $2,500 for
the book. It was later increased to $4,000 and
that resolved the funding matter. Exman later
played a role in the distribution of the 12&12
and AA Comes of Age through retail channels
via Harper.

In regards to the so-called "first 100" in
December 1938, the Twelve Steps were written
at 182 Clinton St (in about 30 minutes). Prior
to this, the recovery program consisted of 6
Steps that were passed on by word of mouth
to new members. Three differing versions of
the 6 Steps are in The Language of the Heart
(pg 200), AA Comes of Age (p 160), Pass It On
(p 197) and the Big Book Pioneer story He Sold
Himself Short by Earl T (p 263 4th ed].

In a July 1953 Grapevine article by Bill W,
he credits Dr Silkworth, the Oxford Group and
William James as the 3 main channels of
inspiration for the Step - he then wrote:

"During the next three years after Dr. Bob's
recovery our growing groups at Akron, New
York and Cleveland evolved the so-called
word-of-mouth program of our pioneering time.
As we commenced to form a society separate from
the Oxford Group, we began to state our princi-
ples something like this:

1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol
2. We got honest with ourselves
3. We got honest with another person, in
confidence
4. We made amends for harms done others
5. We worked with other alcoholics without
demand for prestige or money
6. We prayed to God to help us to do these
things as best we could

Though these principles were advocated according
to the whim or liking of each of us, and though
in Akron and Cleveland they still stuck by the
O.G. absolutes of honesty, purity, unselfishness
and love, this was the gist of our message to
incoming alcoholics up to 1939, when our present
Twelve Steps were put to paper.

I well remember the evening on which the Twelve
Steps were written I was lying in bed quite
dejected and suffering from one of my imaginary
ulcer attacks. Four chapters of the book,
Alcoholics Anonymous, had been roughed out and
read in meetings at Akron and New York. We
quickly found that everybody wanted to be an
author. The hassles as to what should go into
our new book were terrific. For example, some
wanted a purely psychological book which would
draw in alcoholics without scaring them. We
could tell them about the "God business" after-
wards. A few, led by our wonderful southern
friend, Fitz M., wanted a fairly religious
book infused with some of the dogma we had
picked up from the churches and missions which
had tried to help us. The louder these argu-
ments, the more I felt in the middle. It
appeared that I wasn't going to be the author
at all. I was only going to be an umpire who
would decide the contents of the book. This
didn't mean, though, that there wasn't terrific
enthusiasm for the undertaking. Every one of
us was wildly excited at the possibility of
getting our message before all those countless
alcoholics who still didn't know.

Having arrived at Chapter Five, it seemed high
time to state what our program really was. I
remember running over in my mind the word-of-
mouth phrases then in current use. Jotting
these down, they added up to the six named
above. Then came the idea that our program
ought to be more accurately and clearly stated.
Distant readers would have to have a precise
set of principles. Knowing the alcoholic's
ability to rationalize, something airtight
would have to be written. We couldn't let the
reader wiggle out anywhere. Besides, a more
complete statement would help in the chapters
to come where we would need to show exactly
how the recovery program ought to be worked.

At length I began to write on a cheap yellow
tablet. I split the word of-mouth program up
into smaller pieces, meanwhile enlarging its
scope considerably. Uninspired as I felt, I
was surprised that in a short time, perhaps
half an hour, I had set down certain principles
which, on being counted, turned out to be
twelve in number. And for some unaccountable
reason, I had moved the idea of God into the
Second Step, right up front. Besides, I had
named God very liberally throughout the other
steps. In one of the steps I had even suggested
that the newcomer get down on his knees.

When this document was shown to our New York
meeting the protests were many and loud. Our
agnostic friends didn't go at all for the idea
of kneeling. Others said we were talking
altogether too much about God. And anyhow,
why should there be twelve steps when we had
done fine on six? Let's keep it simple, they
said.

This sort of heated discussion went on for
days and nights. But out of it all there came
a ten-strike for Alcoholics Anonymous. Our
agnostic contingent, speared by Hank P. and
Jim B., finally convinced us that we must make
it easier for people like themselves by using
such terms as "a Higher Power" or "God as we
understand Him!" Those expressions, as we so
well know today, have proved lifesavers for
many an alcoholic. They have enabled thousands
of us to make a beginning where none could
have been made had we left the steps just as
I originally wrote them. Happily for us there
were no other changes in the original draft
and the number of steps still stood at twelve.
Little, did we then guess that our Twelve Steps
would soon be widely approved by clergymen of
all denominations and even by our latter-day
friends, the psychiatrists.

This little fragment of history ought to
convince the most skeptical that nobody
invented Alcoholics Anonymous. It just grew
... by the grace of God."

Cheers
Arthur

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of James Flynn
Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 6:48 PM
To: Glenn Chesnut
Cc: aahistorylovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Were the 12 steps Harper's suggestion?

Two different accounts of the role of Harper &
Brothers in the writing of the Big Book:

FIRST VERSION:

"Pass It On" (the conference biography of
Bill W.) pages 193-194 (the Harper offer,
which was for $1,500, was rejected by the
AA people)

and pages 196-199 (the writing of the twelve
steps came much later and had nothing to do
with the Harper & Brothers offer).

"Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age" pages
153-155 and pages 159-163 give essentially
the same story as the one given in "Pass
It On."

SECOND VERSION:

An AA History talk by Jim Burwell in which he
gives his own recollections of what happened
with regard to Harper & Brothers:
http://www.xa-speakers.org/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=1663

DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE TWO VERSIONS:

According to Jim Burwell the offer was for
three thousand dollars. According to Pass It
On and AA Comes of Age the offer was for an
advance of fifteen hundred dollars to be
deducted from the total royalties once the
book was published.

At any rate, regardless of whether the amount
was three thousand dollars or fifteen hundred
dollars, Hank Parker thought it was suspicious
that Harper & Brothers was willing to make
such such a generous offer and proposed that
AA publish the book on its own so that AA
could keep most of the profits. Hank's idea
of self-publishing the book was the beginning
of the Works Publishing Company.

My larger point however was to point out that
according to Jim Burwell it was Harper &
Brothers' idea to include a program of
recovery, aka the twelves steps, in the Big
Book in order to make the book more marketable.

Also I wanted to make the larger point that
the "first 100" may have actually gotten
sober before the 12 steps (as such) were
written and that writing the steps were an
afterthought based on a publisher's suggestion.

Personally I don't know what to believe
since alcoholics rarely allow the truth to
stand in the way of a good story.

Sincerely, Jim Flynn

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++++Message 5134. . . . . . . . . . . . Error in printing date for 12 X 12
forty-ninth printing?
From: brigdencole . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/29/2008 2:18:00 PM

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I have two AA 12X12 step books. They both
state forty-ninth printing. However one says
September, 1993 and the other says January,
1994.

Any idea what AAWS did on these?

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++++Message 5135. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Harper & Brothers and the Big
Book
From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/28/2008 4:12:00 PM

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What were the first two chapters of the Big
Book that Bill W presented to the publishers?
I read somewhere that originally the doctor's
opinion was the first chapter.

So did they send Harper & Brothers "The
Doctor's Opinion" and "Bill's Story"?

- - - -

Message #5128 from James Flynn
<jdf10487@yahoo.com> (jdf10487 at yahoo.com)

"Pass It On" (the conference biography of
Bill W.) pages 193-194, two chapters of
the Big Book were sent to Harper &
Brothers.

"Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age" pages
153-155 says the same thing.

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++++Message 5136. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Barry L. and Bill W''s copy of
the Big Book manuscript
From: Mel B. . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/31/2008 2:02:00 PM

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Hi Rick,

I was pleased to read this additional
information about Barry L., the manuscript,
etc. If his heirs made a bundle out of the
manuscript, it is probably poetic justice.
I think Barry did feel he deserved more
pay for what services he had rendered to
AA World Services and Lois supported him
in this effort. It failed, however, and
Barry died without getting any additional
bucks (at least to my knowledge). He was
virtually a son to Lois and accompanied her
or her trips. I took a photo of her greeting
Jack Bailey in Akron in 1978, with Barry
standing behind her. This is the only
photo I have of Barry, and I wish another
was available.

Mel
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mel Barger
melb@accesstoledo.com
(melb at accesstoledo.com)

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++++Message 5137. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Error in printing date for 12 X
12 forty-ninth printing?
From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/29/2008 4:53:00 PM

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At 13:18 7/29/2008, brigdencole wrote:

>I have two AA 12X12 step books. They both
>state forty-ninth printing. However one says
>September, 1993 and the other says January,
>1994.
>
>Any idea what AAWS did on these?

They did the same thing with the 47th
printing. There are two, one dated January
1993. I'm not sure if that was the first
or the second of the 47th printings.

There is a long history of mislabelling
12x12s starting with the 8th printing
stating it is a 7th. Collectors usually
distinguish them by the dates in the
footnotes at the beginning and end of the
foreword.

I have a 12x12 that came out around 1990
that doesn't have a printing number.

To me it just makes collecting them more
interesting.

Tommy in Baton Rouge

- - - -

Message 5134 from "brigdencole" says

I have two AA 12X12 step books. They both
state forty-ninth printing. However one says
September, 1993 and the other says January,
1994.

ANY IDEA WHAT AAWS DID ON THESE?

- - - -

From: "Charlie Bishop Jr." <bishopbk@comcast.net>
(bishopbk at comcast.net)

They made a mistake?

- - - -

From: "Kimball ROWE" <roweke@msn.com>
(roweke at msn.com)

Misprints are commonplace. I've got a soft
bound large print edition of "AS BIKK SEES IT"

They couldn't get Bill's name right (off
the home row I suspect).

I wouldn't read anything into it other than
the transcriptionist was tired.

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++++Message 5138. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr. Tom M. (AA 1939)
From: chetcope2 . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/27/2008 9:58:00 AM

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Transcript of Bill W. telling the story of
Dr. Tom M., an important episode in the
history of the debate within AA circles over
the issue of alcoholism vs. drug addiction
during the period between 1939 and 1947.

- - - -

A man named Dr. Tom M. was referred to in
message 5082: "AA History Resource"
from: <mdingle76@yahoo.com>
(mdingle76 at yahoo.com)
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/5082

That message referred to a transcript of
Bill W. telling about Dr. Tom M.

<<Dr. Tom got the AA Big Book in 1939 while
a patient at Lexington Hospital for drug
addicts. Tom M. wrote to AA, got sober,
started one of the first groups to communicate
with headquarters by mail, and more.>>

- - - -

A request was made for additional information in
Message 5087 from
"mrpetesplace" <peter@aastuff.com>
(peter at aastuff.com)
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/5087

I would like to know if this Dr. Tom M. is
the same person as the man who is associated
with Shelby, North Carolina. That is where AA
started in this state. This man went to
Lexington, Kentucky. I'm fairly sure that this
is the same person ....

This would be the doctor that Bill talks about
visiting on his trip south and stopped off at
a little town when he closed his talk with the
Yale Summer lectures on Alcoholism ....

Peter F., North Carolina

- - - -

Here is the article that Peter F. was
asking about. The original can be found at:

http://www.24-communications.com/072008/072008.pdf

How Bill W. Learned that
AA’s 12 Steps Work for
Drug Addicts, Too

by Thomas E. Powers

Dr. Tom M. joined AA in 1939. He was a physician.
He was an alcoholic. And he was a narcotics
addict — hooked on morphine for twelve years.
He read the AA Big Book while he was a patient at
the U.S. Public Health Service Hospital in Lexington,
Kentucky.

Impressed by the Twelve Steps, and hopeful
for the possibility of a new life, Dr. Tom contacted
the AA central service office in New York by mail.
After his release from the hospital in Lexington,
Dr. Tom returned to his home in Shelby, North
Carolina, and started an AA group.
In the beginning, his contact with other AAs
consisted of letters back and forth from the AA central
office. But he stayed sober and clean; he never
drank or took drugs again.

Bill Wilson called Dr. Tom’s story “one of the
greatest ever to come out of Alcoholics Anonymous.”
Bill told part of Dr. Tom’s story at a large
AA meeting in Memphis, Tennessee, in September
of 1947. Here’s what Bill said:

- - - -

It was some six years ago. AA had made a good start.
We were getting on firmer ground here and there, but
nothing was too certain. One day our central office in New
York (which is merely a service center where we receive
inquiries and one thing and another) — one day that office
received a letter from a man who was an inmate of
the Lexington place for drug addicts. This man told us
in the letter how he had been a physician, had got onto
alcohol, and then onto morphine, and that while there
in the asylum someone had written him about AA. He
said he had been reading this AA book of ours [Alcoholics
Anonymous, the AA Big Book], which is our book
of experience.

“Of course, I used to be an alcoholic,” he wrote,
“but now I’m an addict of some twelve years standing,
and you know how hopeless that is. But I do see hope
for me in this philosophy of yours, and when I get out
of here I’m certainly going to try it.”

Subsequently our office struck up a correspondence
with him as he’d returned home to that little
southern hamlet. He told us in his quiet way of the
various difficulties he had getting settled again, but
never in any complaining sense. The girls in our office
would write him occasional letters of encouragement,
and little by little he began to describe the formation
of an AA group in Shelby. (By the way, this was one of
the earliest groups we formed through the mail, without
any direct contact.) Well, it was a great thrill to all
of us in the office.

Meanwhile, the southern centers had started —
Atlanta, Richmond, Jacksonville. In larger places the
groups had become larger, and with that a demand
had arisen that I get down among the southerners and
pay my respects and see if I couldn’t peddle a little of
the older AA experience down there.

You see, AA began to look like a success at that
time, and as everyone knows, success is a heady wine.
I’m afraid that I was a little bit on the “big shot” side,
and I spent some little time debating with the folks in
the office whether I would stop off at Shelby. I mean,
you know, that chap there was a nice chap, and he had
done a nice job, but I should get where I could get to
a lot of people. After some debating with myself and
others, I finally, grudgingly, conceded that I would
stop off there at Shelby.

Well, when I got off the train at King’s Mountain,
North Carolina, I saw three men approaching me from
down the platform a ways. Two of them I spotted as
“souses” right off the bat, you couldn’t mistake it —
they were sober, you understand, but we drunks know
our own quite well. The third one, well I wondered
who and what he was. As he drew near I saw some lines
in his face that I didn’t quite place, and as he drew
nearer I saw his lips were marked in a strange way. I
learned later that in the agony of his dope hangovers
he had chewed them, leaving scars. He turned out to
be the delightful soft-spoken man we call Dr. Tom.
Well, we got in the car and drove from King’s
Mountain over to Shelby. We were set down at the door
of a beautiful, typically southern ancestral home. We
went inside, and there I first met Tom’s mother, and then
his young wife and their new baby. And I could feel the
warmth and love and happiness through the atmosphere
of that home.

The meal came and went — and from an AA point
of view, it was a most unusual meal. I found that Tom was
rather reluctant to talk about what he had done in Shelby,
so there wasn’t much AA “shop talk” at the table ( practically
unheard-of elsewhere), and I wondered myself if
dope had a humbling effect — if so, I think that some of
us alcoholics should have taken more of it.

At any rate, presently meeting time came, and we
got down there, and the meeting place was right under
the hotel — right next to the barbershop — very public.
And I said to myself, “Well, now, for a small town that’s
really going some!” And, yes, even over the door, here were
two letters — “AA.” And I got in there and here was the
usual jolly crowd, and then the meeting started.

Well now, up in New York — incidentally, I’m not
from New York, so I can say what I am going to say with
impunity; I’m a Vermonter and therefore one of the
damnedest of all Yankees — our group there is very cosmopolitan.
We have vast numbers of what you might call
“stumble-bums,” and we have a great many sophisticates
and very wise people there, or at least we used to until
AA tamed them down.

In those days we used to rather have to pussy-foot
in New York on the subject of God, lest we scare away some
of the intellectuals, so when I got to Shelby and there was
a great, long invocation, and a choir girl got up and sang a
hymn — well, it was reminiscent of my youth in Vermont,
but I said to myself, “Well now, the New Yorkers wouldn’t
call this AA.”

Well, then they called upon me to talk, and I talked
(too long — by the way; shut me off anytime you get tired
tonight — I have that habit), and then I believe there was
another long prayer and the meeting was over. And I began
to notice with amazement that there were an awful lot
of AAs there. I mean, twenty, thirty of them in this small
place, and they told me there was an equal number out in
the defense industry nearby.

I was wonderfully and favorably stirred by the whole
thing, but the crux of my story turns around what happened
the following morning.

I was to leave on an early train, and somebody called
up from the lobby and said, “Do you mind, Bill — I’d like
to drop up and tell you a few things about Dr. Tom.”
And a man came up, and after he re-introduced
himself (I remembered him from the meeting the night
before), he said, “I’ve got some things you should know.
Speaking of myself, I used to be a banker. I once organized
a whole string of banks in these southern states. I
was on the high road to success. But I was cut down by
alcohol, and then I was cut down by morphine. I was in
the asylum in Lexington with Dr. Tom once. He knew
my story and knew that I couldn’t stay clean. He asked
me to come here for a visit, and I ended up staying here
to work with him. I have been sober and clean now my-
self a year, and he about three.”

And he said, “You know, I’m very gladly working as a
janitor at the Masonic Temple, just so I can have time to
work with my friend Dr. Tom. But enough of me — let
me tell you about Dr. Tom.

“Do you realize that when that man came back
here to this little town — can you possibly comprehend
what the stigma was upon him? The stigma of both alcohol
and morphine was on him. He had dishonored his
profession of medicine, and disgraced his highly placed
family in this community. People were so scandalized
that they hardly spoke to him on the street.” And he said,
“I’m sorry to say that even the drunks of Shelby were snobbish,
saying that they were going to be sobered up by no
damned drug addict.

“Well, little by little he began to work, and little by
little he began to succeed, and the group grew.
“Well, now,” said this man, “you’ve been at Tom’s
home — you have seen that happy mother of his, you’ve
seen the new wife, and you’ve seen the new baby, but you
still don’t know the whole story.

“Tom now has been made the head of our local hospital.
He probably has the largest medical practice in this
county today. All this was accomplished in just three years,
from a start way behind the line. We have a yearly custom
in this town in which all the citizens take a vote on which
one of them has been the most useful individual to the
community in the year past. Last spring Dr. Tom was unanimously
nominated as the most useful citizen of the town
of Shelby.”

When he had finished his recital, I said to myself,
“So you were the man, Bill Wilson, who was too important
to go to Shelby.” Indeed, what hath God wrought.

- - - -

Three years before Bill gave that talk, Dr. Tom
had written a letter which was published in The AA
Grapevine. He was answering another letter from
“Doc” N. — himself a recovered narcotics addict who
had gotten clean in AA. We publish this correspondence
from The AA Grapevine issues of August and
September 1944, for the interest and help of other
recovered and recovering addicts.

The first letter is from “Doc” N. —

- - - -

Dear Grapevine:

Your second issue at hand inspires me to
an idea. I’m sure there are other AAs who,
like myself, are finding in AA the highway
to freedom from narcotics. Why not give us a
“hophead’s corner” in The Grapevine? After
all, we do have a particular problem.

Even if mine is essentially the same
problem of all alcoholics, I occasionally
could wish that there were just one other
narcotic victim in my AA group with whom I
might share experience. And though through
the help of the Higher Power and my AA friends
I no longer take morphine, I realize I fear
it in a way I’ve ceased fearing alcohol.

If I could just share experience with
some other “hophead” I know it would be a
big help, and among AA’s thousands I’m sure
I’ll find my fellows.

Sincerely, “Doc” N.

- - - -

The next issue of The AA Grapevine published an
answer to this letter, from “Dr. Tom M., Shelby, North
Carolina” —

- - - -

Dear Grapevine:

I noticed recently in an issue of The
Grapevine a letter from “Doc” N., who had
found release from narcotics addiction
through AA.

This letter I was glad to see, and hasten
to assure him and others that his experience
is one that is beginning to be shared by
quite a few. We have in our club five men who
have had many years of drug addiction but who
are finding complete freedom from drugs and
are well on the highway to successful and
happy living. Their period of freedom varies
from five months to six years, and they all
attribute this to the help of a Higher Power
that has come to them through AA.

These men, with one exception, were all
primary alcoholics, and I believe this is
largely true of all “hopheads.”

I think all drug addicts will have less
difficulty in accepting Step One than the
regular alcoholic: that their lives have
become unmanageable, and that they are powerless
over narcotics.

I think we feel the need of even greater
help than does the usual alcoholic. Our spiritual
lines of communication must be kept
clearer and there is need for greater voltage
from the spiritual dynamo. The Higher
Power is able unto the uttermost to supply
this; and many others should find the answer
in AA.

I’m sure that the other AA groups have
men who are finding the new life of freedom
and I earnestly wish that we may get into
communication with each other; and I suggest
the possibility, some time, of interesting
the U.S. Public Health Service in the
establishment of an AA group in the United
States Public Health Services Hospital, which
is in Lexington, Kentucky.

Dr. Tom M.,Shelby, N.C.

- - - -

Permission to reprint the AA Grapevine, Inc.
copyrighted material. 24 Communications,
Inc does not imply affiliation with or endorse-
ment by either Alcoholics Anonymous or the
AA Grapevine, Inc.

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++++Message 5139. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr Silkworths signature missing from
the 1st edition BB
From: Stephen Gentile . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/29/2008 7:03:00 PM

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I have been a long time reader on this message
board but do not remember this topic.

Why was Dr Silkworth's signature ommited from
the first edition BB?

When did the signature first appear in the BB?

I have a 1st ed. 11th printing and it is not
in it. I have 2nd ed. (1st, 2nd and 3rd
printings) and it is in all of them.

I was told by someone once that it was left
out to protect Silky from others in his field
until alcoholism was seen as a disease. Was
his signature finally included when the AMA
finally officially recognized alcoholism as
a disease?

The problem here, for me, is that alcoholism
had in fact been characterized by some others
in the medical profession in the late 1700's
as a disease or at least an addiction.

Any positive proof would be appreciated. I am
not interested in opinions as I have previously
heard too many of those.

Kind Regards, Steve G.
New Jersey

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++++Message 5140. . . . . . . . . . . . Swedenborgianism: Lois W.''s
grandfather''s book
From: mdingle76 . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/29/2008 10:47:00 PM

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I have occasionally seen mention of Swendenborg
on AAHistoryLovers and I thought it would be of
interest for the group to know that Lois
Wilson's grandfather (who was a reverend in
the Swedenborgian Church — the Church of New
Jerusalem), wrote a book called "Discrete
Degrees," which can been viewed on
http://www.stepstudy.org

I first heard about "Discrete Degrees" many
years ago when reading a letter between Lois
and my father-in-law, Tom Powers. I am glad
to see that stepstudy has put it up for others
to read it.

Matt D.

- - - -

STEPSTUDY.ORG GIVES A LINK TO THIS SITE:

- - - -

http://www.theisticscience.org/books/burnham/index.htm

DISCRETE DEGREES
IN
SUCCESSIVE AND SIMULTANEOUS ORDER

ILLUSTRATED BY DIAGRAMS

BY THE
REV. N.C. BURNHAM

PHILADELPHIA
THE ACADEMY OF THE NEW CHURCH
1821 WALLACE STREET
1887

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++++Message 5141. . . . . . . . . . . . John Seiberling, 89, former US Rep.
& son of Henrietta Seiberling dies
From: aadavidi . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/2/2008 1:41:00 PM

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John Seiberling, 89, former US Representative
& son of Henrietta Seiberling dies

Longtime Akron Congressman John F. Seiberling
died about 7 a.m. today of respiratory failure
at his home in Copley.

Mr. Seiberling, 89, represented the old
Akron-based 14th Congressional District from
1971 through 1986. He is considered the man
responsible for creation of the Cuyahoga Valley
National Park between Akron and Cleveland in
1974.

A liberal New Deal Democrat, he fought for
wilderness and historic preservation, arms
control, free trade and world peace, and he
worked tirelessly in a bipartisan way to get
things done.

He was able to provide Akron with a new
federal courthouse and post office and found
federal money for many projects, including
Quaker Square, Akron-Canton Airport and the
Goodyear Technical Center.

In Congress, Mr. Seiberling chaired the House
Interior Committee's public lands and national
parks subcommittee. He played a key role in
preserving 129 million acres of wilderness
and park land, including 54 million acres of
Alaskan wilderness.

He also play a critical role in passage of
the federal surface mining reclamation act in
1977 and in enlarging the federal Land and
Water Conservation Fund in 1976. He fought to
eliminate acid rain.

In 1974, Mr. Seiberling served on the House
Judiciary Committee that held the impeachment
hearings against President Richard M. Nixon,
leading to his resignation.

It was Mr. Seiberling's opposition to the
Vietnam War that spurred the 17-year corporate
attorney for Goodyear to run for Congress.
While at Goodyear, he sided with union workers,
taking a leave of absence rather than cross
their picket lines.

He married Elizabeth ''Betty'' Behr in 1949.
They have three sons: John B., David and
Stephen, and a grandson, Evan.

A memorial service for Mr. Seiberling will be
held in late August or early September.

By Bob Downing
Beacon Journal staff writer

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++++Message 5142. . . . . . . . . . . . AP: former Ohio Congressman John
Seiberling dies at 89
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/3/2008 8:50:00 PM

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The Associated Press: Former Ohio Congressman
John Seiberling dies at 89

From Mel Barger <melb@access-toledo.com>
(melb at access-toledo.com)

COPLEY, Ohio (AP) — Former Rep. John F.
Seiberling, who served on the committee that
led impeachment hearings against President
Richard Nixon and laid the groundwork for
Ohio's only national park, died Saturday.
He was 89.

Seiberling died of respiratory failure at his
home near Akron after a long illness, said
his wife, Betty Seiberling.

Seiberling, a Democrat, had been a corporate
attorney for Akron-based Goodyear Tire & Rubber
Co. for 17 years when he decided to run for
Congress in 1970 because of his opposition
to the Vietnam War. He unseated longtime
Republican Rep. William Ayres.

Seiberling led a House subcommittee on public
lands and national parks that preserved 129
million acres, including areas in Alaska and
the area in northeastern Ohio that eventually
became Cuyahoga Valley National Park.

In 1974, Seiberling was a member of the House
Judiciary Committee as it led the impeachment
hearings against Nixon, who resigned from
office before a vote was taken.

After retiring from Congress in 1987,
Seiberling taught at the University of Akron
School of Law and directed the university's
Center for Peace Studies.

A private funeral is planned.

Copyright © 2008 The Associated Press.
All rights reserved.

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++++Message 5143. . . . . . . . . . . . John Seiberling
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/3/2008 8:50:00 PM

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From "Mel B." <melb@buckeye-access.com>
(melb at buckeye-access.com)

This might be of interest to History Lovers.
What follows is the Wikipedia item on John
Seiberling, who died August 2 at 89. Note
that his mother Henrietta is mentioned as
well as her connection to AA.

John did take an interest in AA and sometimes
came to certain AA events in Akron. I met
him at least once and also talked with him
by phone. At one time, he represented his
mother at an Akron AA event and told the story
of her bringing Bill and Bob together. John
had two sisters; I interviewed one in New York
back around 1980.

Mel Barger

- - - -

From Glenn C.: see photo of John Seiberling
at http://hindsfoot.org/photos1.html

- - - -

John F. Seiberling
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

John Frederick Seiberling (September 8, 1918
-- August 2, 2008) was a United States
Representative from Ohio. In 1974, he helped
to establish what later became of the Cuyahoga
Valley National Park, and served on the House
Judiciary Committee that held the impeachment
hearings against President Richard Nixon.[1]

Born in Akron, Ohio, Seiberling attended the
public schools of Akron, and Staunton Military
Academy in Virginia. He received his A.B. from
Harvard University in 1941.

During World War II he served in the United
States Army from 1942 to 1946. He was
subsequently awarded the Legion of Merit
for his participation in the Allied planning
of the D-Day invasion.[2]

Seiberling received his LL.B. from Columbia
Law School in 1949. In 1950, Seiblerling was
admitted to the New York bar and went into
private practice. He became an associate with
a New York firm from 1949 to 1954, and then
became a volunteer with the New York Legal
Aid Society in 1950. He served as a corporate
attorney in private industry from 1954 to 1970,
including working as a corporate attorney for
the Goodyear Tire and Rubber Company.[2] During
this time he was a member of the Tri-County
Regional Planning Commission in Akron from
1964 to 1970.

Seiberling was elected as a Democrat to the
Ninety-second and to the seven succeeding
Congresses, serving the 14th district from
January 3, 1971 to January 3, 1987. His
political legacy includes enacting bipartisan
environmental protections and participating
in a 1975 Congressional delegation to the
Middle East that helped precipitate the 1979
Israel-Egypt Peace Treaty.[2] Seiberling was
not a candidate for reelection to the One
Hundredth Congress in 1986.

After his time in Congress, Seiberling served
as faculty at the law school of the University
of Akron from 1992 to 1996.

On Thursday, October 12, 2006, President
George W. Bush signed into law H.R. 6051,
which designates the Federal building and
United States courthouse in Akron as the
John F. Seiberling Federal Building and
United States Courthouse.[3] Seiberling died
of respiratory failure at his home in Copley,
Ohio on August 2, 2008.[1]

John Seiberling's cousin, Francis Seiberling,
was also a U.S. Representative from Ohio
(Republican).

His mother, Henrietta Buckler Seiberling, was
a seminal figure in Alcoholics Anonymous'
founding and core spiritual ideals.[4][5]
His paternal grandfather was Frank A.
Seiberling, founder of the Goodyear Tire
and Rubber Company.[4] The family's one-time
home, Stan Hywet, is now a national museum.[4]

NOTES

1. ^ a b Downing, Bob (2008-08-02). "John
Seiberling is dead at 89", Akron Beacon
Journal. Retrieved on 2008-08-02.
2. ^ a b c Walker Snider (2005).
3. ^ President Designates United States
Postal Service, Courthouse and Federal
Building Facilities
4. ^ a b c University of Akron (n.d.).
5. ^ www.aabibliography.com (n.d.).

REFERENCES

John F. Seiberling at the Biographical
Directory of the United States Congress
University of Akron (n.d.).
Henrietta Buckler Seiberling, 1888-1979.
Retrieved 2007-11-20 from "Akron Women's
History" at
http://www3.uakron.edu/schlcomm/womenshistory/seiberling_h.htm. [19]
Walker Snider,Jane (2005). Profiles in Service:
John & Betty Seiberling. Retrieved 2007-11-20
from "Akron Council on World Affairs" at
http://www.akronworldaffairs.org/newsletter/features/seiberling.html.
www.aabibliography (n.d.). Henrietta Buckler
Seiberling (1888-1979). Retrieved 2007-11-20
from "An Illustrated Alcoholic Anonymous
Bibliography" at
http://www.aabibliography.com/henrietta_buckler_seiberling.htm.

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++++Message 5144. . . . . . . . . . . . An American hero dies: John
Seiberling
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/3/2008 9:21:00 PM

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From: "John Blair" <jblair@wmis.net>
(jblair at wmis.net)

An American hero dies: John Seiberling

http://www.ohio.com/news/26217469.html?page=all&c=y

JOHN FREDERICK SEIBERLING 1918-2008
'An American hero' dies

Retired congressman who represented Akron for 16 years praised for his
tireless
work creating Cuyahoga Valley park, preserving wilderness

By Bob Downing
Beacon Journal staff writer

Published on Sunday, Aug 03, 2008

John F. Seiberling, the retired Akron congressman who helped create the
Cuyahoga
Valley National Recreation Area, died Saturday morning at his home in Copley
Township.

He was 89.

Mr. Seiberling, who was born in Stan Hywet Hall but represented blue-collar
Akron in the U.S. House of Representatives for 16 years, was remembered by
some
as the conscience of Congress and by others as one of America's great
conservationists.

His death was attributed to respiratory failure caused by chronic lung
disease.
He had been hospitalized June 29 but was released to go home, where he died
about 7 a.m. Saturday.

''Without John Seiberling, there would be no Cuyahoga Valley National
Park,''
said U.S. Rep. Ralph Regula, R-Navarre.

''He was a good person . . . and he left a great legacy in the Cuyahoga
Valley
park.

''He was the original environmentalist. He was green way back when. He
really
was ahead of his time. . . . He was a man of integrity and made his
decisions
based on what was right, not for their political value. And he cared deeply
for
the country and its people.''

Mr. Seiberling represented the old Akron-based 14th District in Congress
from
1971 through 1986, frequently winning re-election with 70 percent of the
vote.

He was a liberal New Deal Democrat, a supporter of wilderness, arms control,
free trade, world peace and historic preservation. He was a fan of
Shakespeare,
poetry and bawdy limericks, as well as an accomplished nature photographer
and a
lover of The Wind in the Willows.

He was soft-spoken and reserved yet strong willed and at times feisty. He
looked
at the big picture, although he was a man of detail. Known for his calm,
statesmanlike approach, he operated with caution and dignity, without
flamboyance. He was known for his dry wit, intellect, idealism and
integrity.

He was a loner and proudly operated outside the political system, refusing
to be
one of the boys, to join the congressional club. Behind his back, staff and
supporters called him St. John.

Before Congress, during his 17 years as an attorney for the Goodyear Tire &
Rubber Co. — the company his grandfather founded — Mr. Seiberling once
took a
leave of absence to avoid crossing United Rubber Worker union picket lines.
That's because he sided with the union at that time.

And in the wake of the May 4, 1970, shootings at nearby Kent State
University,
Mr. Seiberling ignored the political risks and warnings of advisers to speak
at
a rally at the University of Akron, advising students there to keep their
protests peaceful.

It was his opposition to the Vietnam War that led Mr. Seiberling to run for
Congress in 1970, defeating 10-term Republican incumbent William Ayers to
become
a 51-year-old rookie.

Mr. Seiberling served on the House Judiciary Committee that conducted the
1974
impeachment hearings that led to the resignation of President Richard Nixon.

And in his 1986 congressional hearings to probe the proposed takeover of
Goodyear by raider Sir James Goldsmith, it was Mr. Seiberling who drew the
loudest cheers from Akron when he confronted Goldsmith with the question:
''Who
the hell are you?''

Part of Mr. Seiberling's success as a congressman was attributed to his
ability
to work with local and federal officials in a bipartisan effort.

He got Akron a new federal courthouse and a new post office. He twice found
federal money for the city's now-closed trash-burning power plant, as well
as
funds for Quaker Square, the Akron-Canton Airport, the Goodyear Technical
Center
and various other projects.

''I'm not sure any of us can adequately measure with words the immense
contributions John has made,'' said Akron Mayor Don Plusquellic. ''The true
value of his work will continue to reside in his legacy and will be enjoyed
by
and for many, many generations to come. His is the work of a remarkable
public
servant with a most generous spirit and creative mind. John Seiberling and
his
family have helped build and sustain this city.''

''John Seiberling was a darn good congressman,'' Summit County Republican
Party
Chairman Alex Arshinkoff told a reporter after Seiberling retired. ''If I
were a
liberal Democrat, I'd say he was a great congressman.''

Mr. Seiberling also left his mark far beyond Akron, stretching across the
American West and Alaska.

''John Seiberling stands as a giant in terms of managing public lands . . .
an
American hero,'' said John Debo, superintendent of the Cuyahoga Valley
National
Park. ''What he did was really extraordinary, and he truly was one of
America's
great conservationists.''

Right man, right time

He was a key figure in Congress in the 1970s and 1980s and played a key role
in
preserving America's wild lands — with his constituents not always aware
of the
issues and what was going on, said Dan Nelson of Bath Township, an emeritus
history professor at the University of Akron and author of A Passion for the
Land: John F. Seiberling and the Environmental Movement (to be published
next
year by Kent State University Press).

''Getting the Cuyahoga Valley park created in 1974 only whetted his
appetite. He
got involved in Alaska and wilderness lands. . . . He was the right man at
the
right time to get a lot accomplished,'' Nelson said.

Doug Scott of Seattle, a wilderness author and policy director for Campaign
for
America's Wilderness, said Mr. Seiberling should rank among the very top
conservationists in the 20th century. Scott worked with Mr. Seiberling on
wilderness measures while with the Sierra Club and wrote The Enduring
Wilderness: Protecting Our National Heritage Through the Wilderness Act.

''Wilderness was his passion,'' Scott said. ''And that legacy will touch all
Americans for generations. . . . He truly was an American giant.''

Over the years, Mr. Seiberling served as chairman of the Interior
Committee's
public lands and national parks subcommittee and pushed 33 bills for 250 new
and
expanded wilderness areas in 27 states.

In 1980, he and U.S. Rep. Morris Udall, D-Ariz., led the fight to approve
federal protection for 103 million acres under the Alaska National Interest
Lands Conservation Act.

In all, Mr. Seiberling played a key role in preserving 69 million acres of
wilderness — that included 54 million acres in Alaska — in addition to
59
million acres of other federal parks, forests and preserves.

Mr. Seiberling made his first trip to Alaska in 1975 and came away
impressed.

In 1977, he held congressional hearings across that state, helping him
develop a
photo collection of more than 3,000 Alaskan shots. He exhibited his photos
in
the Capital during the 1978 debate and said the photos helped sway members
of
Congress.

He was widely saluted by national environmental groups for his efforts to
save
the American wilderness — efforts that earned him opposition from some
Western
and Alaskan politicians.

Bruce Hamilton, deputy executive director for the national Sierra Club,
compared
the significance of Mr. Seiberling's efforts for Alaska to President
Theodore
Roosevelt's creation of the national forests.

The Alaskan legislation was ''a tribute to Seiberling's persistence and
statesmanship,'' he said.

''He was the expert and made quite the difference. . . . Every wilderness
advocate in the country knew him and worshipped him,'' Hamilton said in a
telephone interview from San Francisco. ''Most considered John Seiberling to
be
their second congressman.''

Conservationist is born

Mr. Seiberling's desire to save wild America may be traced to a childhood
experience on a family vacation to an island in Lake Huron. On a return
trip,
the mainland forest near Hessel, Mich., had disappeared. The giant white
pines
had been cut to be turned into matchsticks.

Later, in a quote still cited by his ex-staffers, Mr. Seiberling said:

''We will never see the land as our ancestors did. But we can understand
what
made it beautiful and why they lived and died to preserve it. And in
preserving
it for future generations, we will preserve something of ourselves. If we
all
have an interest in this land, then we all have a stake in its preservation.
There is no more worthwhile cause.''

His associates said the words were reflective of his goals.

But Mr. Seiberling was proudest of spearheading the creation of the Cuyahoga
Valley park in 1974.

In 1971, as a rookie legislator, Mr. Seiberling's efforts to help sponsor
legislation to create a national park between Akron and Cleveland went
nowhere.

In subsequent years, though, he introduced the measure and worked to build
public support for saving the Cuyahoga Valley.

Debo, the park's superintendent, said Mr. Seiberling ''had the foresight and
the
ability to galvanize public support to preserve the valley. It was an
incredible
accomplishment.''

Not everyone supported the idea. The National Park Service didn't think the
Cuyahoga Valley deserved federal protection.

And even after winning approval in Congress, the legislation came perilously
close to dying. With President Gerald Ford on a ski vacation in Colorado,
federal officials, opposed to a high-cost urban park, were urging a veto.

Mr. Seiberling called Regula, who got an emergency phone call placed to Ford
by
Akron's Ray Bliss, the influential former national chairman of the
Republican
Party. Other calls went to U.S. Sens. Robert Taft Jr. and Howard Metzenbaum,
as
well as former Goodyear Chairman E. J. Thomas.

Bliss told Ford that he should sign the legislation if he wanted to win Ohio
and
to veto it if he wanted to lose Ohio.

Ford signed the bill on Dec. 27, 1974.

Mr. Seiberling called Ford's approval a Christmas gift for people in
Northeast
Ohio. In later years, he said the park was far more than he ever expected.

Mr. Seiberling also protected the park from Ronald Reagan's secretary of the
interior, James Watt, who wanted to eliminate it as a federal park in the
1980s.

Mr. Seiberling also played key roles in the 1977 federal surface-mining
reclamation act and a 1976 bill enlarging the federal Land and Water
Conservation Fund. He also pushed to eliminate acid rain in clean-air
legislation.

He was unsuccessful in an effort to have federal judges selected on merit
instead of political appointment, and to create a youth job corps.

He aggressively fought President Reagan over federal budget cuts in the
early
1980s.

His influence was felt beyond U.S. shores. He played key roles in Congress
in
the birth of nations: the Republic of the Marshall Islands, the Republic of
Palau and the Federated States of Micronesia.

His staff saw Mr. Seiberling as ''this cuddly distinguished college
professor
whom we all loved,'' said Andrew Wiessner, a one-time staffer and now a
retired
public lands consultant in Colorado.

Issues instead of politics

Mr. Seiberling was different: He was the nonpolitical congressman, a good
and
dedicated public servant, Wiessner said.

''He looked at the issues, not the politics,'' Wiessner said ''There was a
gentle way about him. He was so scholarly and so thorough''

Long-time Seiberling staffer Loretta Neumann added: ''He really was a
Renaissance man, an amazing man, a giant. . . . Everyone who ever worked for
him
said it was the best job they ever had, and that was true for me, too. . . .
He
was the right person at the right place at the right time to do the things
he
did.''

Neumann, who came to Mr. Seiberling's staff from the National Park Service,
said
he hired her mainly to get the park established.

''At the time, I knew nothing about the workings of Congress.'' she said.
''When
I first met him, I told him so. 'Don't worry,' he said. 'I need you to teach
me
about parks. I can teach you what you need to know about Congress.' ''

State Sen. Tom Sawyer, D-Akron, who succeeded Mr. Seiberling in Congress,
said
he knew Mr. Seiberling ''virtually my entire political life.''

''He was a commanding figure throughout this community and as soon as I got
to
Washington, it was clear as it had ever been that he was beloved by the
people
who knew him best,'' Sawyer said.

He had an ''enormous respect for the rule of law and love of nation,''
Sawyer
said, and his respect for the environment went beyond Northeast Ohio in a
way
that ''will be remembered for generations.''

After serving in Congress, Mr. Seiberling returned to Akron to practice law,
teach law and direct the University of Akron's Center for Peace Studies for
51/2
years, until mid-1996. He also returned to enjoy the Cuyahoga Valley from
his
long-time home at the edge of the park in Bath Township. He and his wife
later
moved to a Copley Township condominium.

He earned countless honors over the years, including the Bert A. Polsky
Humanitarian Award from the Akron Community Foundation in 1999.

He attributed his love of nature to his father, John F. Seiberling Sr. But
he
frequently said the most influential person in his life was his mother,
Henrietta, who died in 1979.

His mother was described as a formidable woman of strong moral conviction
— a
churchgoer who introduced Bill Wilson of New York and Dr. Robert Smith of
Akron
in 1935. They went on to found Alcoholics Anonymous in Akron.

Getting an education

Mr. Seiberling attended King Elementary School and Buchtel High School in
Akron
before going to Staunton Military Academy in Staunton, Va.

He graduated from Harvard University in 1941.

During World War II, he served in the Army from 1942 to 1946, fighting in
Europe. He enlisted as a private and attained the rank of major. He earned
the
Legion of Merit, the Bronze Star and three Battle Stars. He also earned the
Medaille de la Reconnaissance Francaise (France) and the Ordre de Leopold II
(Belgium).

After his discharge, he earned a law degree at Columbia University in New
York
in 1949.

From 1949 to 1954, he practiced law with Donovan, Leisure, Newton and Irvine
in
New York City.

He joined Goodyear in Akron in 1954 and remained here until he went to
Congress
in 1971.

Locally, Mr. Seiberling was a member of the Akron Regional Development Board
and
the Akron Metropolitan Housing Authority. He was a three-term president of
the
Akron-based Tri-County Regional Planning Commission.

He was a member of the United Community Council of Summit County, the Stan
Hywet
Hall Foundation, the United World Federalists of Akron and the Akron Bar
Association's World Peace Through Law committee.

He was a founder of the Summit County Committee for Peace in Vietnam and a
member of the local Sierra Club and the Cuyahoga Valley Association.

In 1949, he married Elizabeth ''Betty'' Behr, a Vassar graduate. They shared
the
same interests, the same priorities, the same outlook for 59 years of
marriage.

She actually met her future husband while at Vassar through his sister, who
was
a student there. They had their first date in Paris in 1945 — at an
officer's
mess.

He proposed during his last year of law school in New York. She later told
reporters she accepted his proposal in part because he had respect for
women's
intellectual capabilities.

In addition to his wife, he is survived by their three sons, John B. of
Washington, D.C., David of Akron and Stephen of Chapel Hill, N.C.; and one
grandson, Evan. He also leaves sisters Dorothy Seiberling of Long Island,
N.Y.,
and Mary S. Huhn of Pennsylvania.

A memorial service is planned for late August or early September.

Billow funeral home in Fairlawn is handling arrangements.

- - - -

Bob Downing can be reached at 330/996/3745 or
<bdowning@thebeaconjournal.com>
(bdowning at thebeaconjournal.com)

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++++Message 5145. . . . . . . . . . . . Missing citation to "Dr Bob and the
Good Old Timers"
From: serenityodaat . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/2/2008 5:49:00 AM

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Hiya group!

I´m translating an article on beginner classes
http://www.aa-goteborg.se/katrinelund/docs/historyBeginnerclasses.pdf
into Swedish. In the beginning of the text it
makes a reference to page 261 in "Dr Bob and
the Good Old Timers":

"In the book 'Dr. Bob and the Good Old-timers'
it states on page 261, "Yes, Cleveland's
results were the best. Their results were in
fact so good that many a Clevelander really
though AA had started there in the first
place. Over half of the fellowship was from
Cleveland up and through the mid-1940s."

I've read thru the entire chapter without
finding this text... My book is the 23rd
printing from 2003. Can anyone please help
me finding this text?

Thanx!

AlkyAndy aka Anders from Gothenburg, Sweden

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++++Message 5146. . . . . . . . . . . . Who wrote the Foreward to the 2nd
edit. of the Big Book?
From: bruceken@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/30/2008 9:12:00 PM

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Who wrote the foreward to the second edition
of the Big Book, the longest of the Forewards?

As I understand it, the General Service
Structure had been set up by 1955 -- before
the second edition of the book was published.

The question has to do with whether or not
the Foreward to the second edition was written
by Bill Wilson, or by a General Service
Committee -- writers other than Bill --
as it was in later editions.

Can anyone answer that question for me?

Bruce Kennedy
San Francisco

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++++Message 5147. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr Silkworth''s signature
missing from the 1st edition BB
From: james.bliss@comcast.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/31/2008 5:58:00 PM

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The first edition of the second printing was
when his name appeared:

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/4724

Yes, it was to avoid the potential issue of
having his name associated with Alcoholics
Anonymous at that time which prevented it
from being printed in the first edition.

- - - -

From: "wantarug" <gttdkt@sbcglobal.net>
(gttdkt at sbcglobal.net)

The various authors did not SIGN their names
and their actual signatures were not
reproduced in any editions of the Big Book.

Don't you really mean author byline instead
of signature?

Thanks,
Dona T
Houston

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++++Message 5148. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Barry L. and Bill W''s copy of
the Big Book manuscript
From: diazeztone . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/31/2008 9:49:00 PM

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PHOTO OF BARRY LEACH

Mel Barger wrote that:

> was virtually a son to Lois and accompanied her
> or her trips. I took a photo of her greeting
> Jack Bailey in Akron in 1978, with Barry
> standing behind her. This is the only
> photo I have of Barry, and I wish another
> was available.
>
> Mel

- - - -

Mel,

You sent me the photo and I added it to the
Barry Leach page:

http://www.aabibliography.com/barry_leach_living_sober.html

LD Pierce
aabibliography.com

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++++Message 5149. . . . . . . . . . . . Larry Jewell - AA in Houston
From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/1/2008 4:46:00 PM

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Can anyone tell me more about Larry J? I know
he wrote that the six articles that appeared
in the Houston Press and I am familiar
with "The First AA Pamphlet".

What is Larry's history post 1940?

Any info available on fate of the pamphlet?

This pamphlet appears to be the origin of
"spiritual not religious," printed as "not
religious, but spiritual" in the 4th article.

Does anyone have any additional information
on this?

I am trying to research the history of the
description of AA as "Spiritual not Religious"
as used by either the pioneers such as
Larry J or in AA literature.

Any help is appreciated.

God Bless

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++++Message 5150. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill Wilson''s morning prayer --
Swedenborgian elements
From: ac1799_4 . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/31/2008 7:51:00 AM

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Hello, I'm replying to this question at
bottom of this msg:

>> ANY ECHOES HERE OF SWEDENBORGIAN LITURGY?
>>
>> From: Baileygc23@...
>> (Baileygc23 at aol.com)
>>
>> Has this prayer anything to do with
>> Swedenborgianism?

Here I give you a repost and re-edit with an amplification of statements
I made on July 28. I've received two emails from that by members
already intrigued by the Swedenborg/Burnham/Wilson connections that they
were aware of already.

To set this up, Lois and Bill were married in a Swedenborgian church
in Brooklyn. Lois' maiden name is Burnham. She was raised in devout
Swedenborgian family. Her grampa was a noted translator and scholar in
this sect. This New Church was NOT a part of New Thought, as Writings
were made in mid-1700s. It maintains that ES received revelations [all
knowledge for us from God is revelation, since He is spirit and we are
natural] explaining Scriptures at a 'spiritual and the celestial
level'. New Church has high view of Bible and high view of Christ as
God, so is not part of metaphysical movement, although somehow
Swedenborg became associated with birth of metaphysics a century later.

I'm a Swedenborgian Christian; I discovered Emanuel Swedenborg and
his Writings 3 years ago. I was already a Christian since 1970 and

because of the clarities on how faith/truth and charity/good work
together, I've moved from a narrower, strident Christianity into
Swedenborgian 'faith'. I am also in recovery 8.5 years, and Swedenborg
teachings have been helpful past 3 years: such as emphasis on what we
in AA call 'service work' & what the New Church calls Uses, or New
Church emphasis on what we call 'doing the next right thing'.

Yes indeed there are many interesting parallels between how AA works
& Swedenborgian concepts and theology. And interestingly, in my life in
first 4 years of recovery, AA meetings and steps helped restructure the
bricks of my spiritual/religious foundation into an effective 'faith'
within my Christianity that Big Book says many of us return to. In fact
I don't think God allowed me to find the Writings UNTIL AA had been able
to restructure my views on how He worked with us. I would not have been
spiritully fit to grasp the Writings.

After giving the 3 things in Bill Wilson's prayer that may be
Swedenborgian, I AM listing some other AA/Swedenborgian quotes side by
side. May they bless and intrigue you as they do me.

Anyway to respond to Baileycg23 of June 13 or so, the 3 things that
stand out to me that are Swedenborgian in the prayer [posted at bottom]
are:

1. the volume Heaven and Hell [probably ES' most read book] discusses
all the Societies, Communities in the heavens. Yes there are 3 heavens,
and we are grouped according to our Loves and also put with others who
are similar to us in spirit, so to speak. So there is that notion of the
many mansions being spiritual homes in the heavens, and we have
spiritual bodies that inhabit them. Does 'Societies' refer to AA
communities here? I have no idea. But it is curious that his prayer
references grace to "be discovered by family and friends -- those here
and those beyond" - so they would be Societies in the beyond too,
wouldn't they?

2. Lois indeed would have loved the end of that prayer (quote: Lois, who
remained deeply in love with Bill for her entire adult life, said, years
after his death: 'That business about no separation between ourselves is
something that I cherish.') as it is an allusion, I believe, to the
Swedenborgian teaching that marriage continues after death.
[It is suspected by scholars, from my research, that Smith the founder
of the Mormons read some Swedenborg, and 'borrowed' this idea. New
Thought Movement teachers borrowed from the Writings of Swedenborg too,
but didn't keep his intent. A discussion on how and why the New Thought
Movement borrowed from and harmed Swedenborg's intent must wait for some
other discussion]

Anyway, Swedenborg introduced this concept of a united marriage (of
spiritual as well as natural bonds continuing in heaven) in 1700s, and
his volume Conjugial Love [not conjugal but 'conjugial'] is a beautiful
complex description of love, marriage, unity with God, how God works
with mankind and so much more.

(Swedenborg had to, on occasion, invent new words since none existed for
the concepts he had been introduced to in the spirit world.)
So in summary you see, Lois would have been well-acquainted with, and
comforted by this belief in a reunion with Bill, a marriage in heaven
since two continue 'to become one' ideally for eternity.

3. This quote 'May we find and do Thy will in good strength, in good
cheer today.' could be a reference to being Useful, being of service to
others, getting set free from self by being other-directed. It is
significant to me that Bill Wilson would insert such a statement into
the family prayer.

Swedenborgianism emphasizes changed behavior [reformation] and doing the
right thing even if you don't feel like it. When it becomes a part of
us, as we get into the later steps, that would equate to Regeneration.
We do the right things because we love God and love His freedom. We no
longer are doing 'right things' because the sponsor says to, or from
fear of consequences, or other 'natural' motives. When we do the right
thing in the 'natural' mind and understanding, it opens a reciprocal
relationship & flow between me and God. This Reformation evolves into
Regeneration in this life as my relationship with God grows and I want
to do His Will, rather than having to obey Him [or my sponsor HA].

Now as promised above, here are some Swedenborgian quotes to help you
grasp how curiously the AA phrases and concepts mirror what a theologian
and seer from 1750 wrote:

============================================
Faith without works is dead. Book of James
"Faith without love is dead, and faith with love is living." AC9050
"There is action and more action. 'Faith without works is dead'"
Big Book, pg 88
"Faith has to work twenty-four hours a day in and through us, or we
perish"
Big Book pg. 16
"Now we need more action, without which we find that 'Faith without
works
is dead'....If we haven't the will to do this, we ask until it comes."
Big Book pg 76

"He may be an example of the truth that faith alone is insufficient. To
be vital, faith must be accompanied by self sacrifice and unselfish,
constructive action."
Big Book, pg 93 last paragraph. (I personally wonder if the term
'faith alone' is put here on purpose, as Swedenborg protested the
doctrine as being incomplete without good/charity/uses/love accompanying
it. Bill would have known of this technical doctrinal phrase not only
from Swedenborg via Lois or his own readings, but by discussions with
Shoemaker or the many other Christian leaders that influenced him. He
rejects 'faith alone' in a crystal clear way, just as Swedenborg does in
his masterpiece 2 volume work True Christian Religion)
(I'm not trying to stir up any doctrinal debate here; the point is to
equate AA literature with literature written 180 years before it)
=========================================
........An easier, softer way.......
"You cannot have humility when you love only yourself. Self–love
is hard, and love to the Divine is soft. Self–love must be wholly
crushed."
Spiritual Experiences 4754 Emanuel Swedenborg
"The delusion that we are like other people, or presently may be, has
to be smashed." Big Book, pg. 30
===========================================
......."the drinking life is the only life he can imagine" - AA quote.
'...the alcoholic life seems to be the only normal one' xxvi

'The real is distinguished from the not real in this--that the real is
actually such as it appears, and that the not real is actually not such
as it appears.' Arcana Coelestia 4623 [Latin for Heavenly Secrets or
Secrets of Heaven]
============================================
A day at a time:
"When we diligently try to follow the truth,
as we are given to see it, the Lord inflows with good
and when He is present concern for the future is dissipated. Our fears
become replaced with a supreme trust in His providence. A newfound
confidence in the Lord's power is born, and that confidence inmostly
prevails regardless of the trials and misfortunes by which we may be
confronted periodically. A person who tries to do what is good places
him
or herself into "the stream of providence and is carried along
constantly
towards happier things. Those in the stream of providence are people who
trust in the Divine and ascribe everything to Him." (Arcana 8478)

Altogether different is it with those who trust in the Divine. Though
they
have care for the morrow, yet they have it not; for they do not think of
the morrow with solicitude, still less with anxiety. Whether they get
what they wish or not, they are composed, not lamenting over losses,
but being content with their lot. If they become rich, they do not set
their hearts upon riches. If they are exalted to honors, they do not
look upon themselves as worthier than others. If they become poor,
they are not cast down. If their condition be mean, they are not
dejected. They know that with those who put their trust in the Divine,
all things work toward a happy state to eternity.
-- Arcana Coelestia, n._ 8478
========================================
GOD - Good Orderly Direction -
"One receives faith by approaching the Lord, learning truths [as if]
from the Word,
and living according to them."
True Christian Religion 343 Emanuel Swedenborg
==========================================

did Dr. Silkworth read Swedenborg? '.......Cannot after a time
differentiate the true from the false', pg. xxvi of The Doctor's
Opinion:
"I once heard spirits speaking together of the fact that whatever is
adopted as a principle, no matter what it may be, can be confirmed by
innumerable things, until at length, to the man who has confirmed
himself, it appears entirely true even though false; and that men
can be more easily persuaded of a falsity than of a truth." AC 2477

"A persuasion of falsity extinguishes and as it were suffocates
everything spiritual and celestial; as everyone may know from much
experience, if he pays attention." AC 806
==========================================
How step 4 works:
"...but as soon as a man on self-examination confesses evils to be sins
against God because they are contrary to Divine laws and accordingly
resolves to desist from them, the Lord opens the spiritual mind, enters
the natural by affections of truth and good, enters the reason, and by
the reason puts into order what is disordered below in the natural. It
is this that strikes the man as a battle, and strikes those who have
indulged much in enjoyments of evil as temptation, for when the order
of its thinking is inverted the lower mind suffers pain."
~Divine Providence 147 Emanuel Swedenborg
=================
How step 7 works:
"To the extent that you detest evil, goodness enters
you from heaven. To the extent that you detest
promiscuity, what is chaste enters; to the extent that
you detest frauds and unlawful gains, sincerity and
justice enter; to the extent that you detest hatred
and revenge, lovingkindness enters; to the extent that
you detest lies and blasphemies, truth enters; and to
the extent that you detest arrogance, humility before
God and love of your neighbor as yourself enter. To
shun evil is to do what is good."
Apocalypse Explained 803 Emanuel Swedenborg

"A person who knows all that is good and all that is true – as
much as can be known – but does not resist evils, knows
nothing."
Apocalypse Explained 1180 Emanuel Swedenborg
==========================================
''..... afraid I will lose something I have, or not get something I
want'.....
from 12x12 on step 7
"It is not contrary to order to look out for one's self and one's
dependents. Those have "care for the morrow" who are not content with
their lot, who do not trust in the Divine but themselves, and who
regard only worldly and earthly things and not heavenly. With such
there prevails universally a solicitude about things future, a desire
to possess everything, and to rule over all. They grieve if they do
not get what they desire, and suffer torment when they lose what they
have. Then they grow angry with the Divine, rejecting it together
with everything of faith, and cursing themselves."
-- Arcana Coelestia, 8478
====================================
Trust God, Clean House, Help Others - Dr. Bob
Clean House -
"Nothing else is required of man than to sweep the house; that is,
to reject the cupidities of evil and the derivative persuasions of
falsity [i.e., to clear away the earthly matter that chokes and closes].
AC 3142
==========================================

Defining and 'Doing the Next Right Thing':
". . . charity toward the neighbor extends
much more widely than to the poor and needy.
Charity toward the neighbor consists in
doing right in every work,and one's duty
in every office."
AC 8121 or Arcana Coelestia 8121
[Latin for Heavenly Secrets or Secrets of Heaven]
==================================================
WHY THERE IS SATISFACTION IN 'DOING NEXT RIGHT THING':
"It is the very feeling of delight itself, inherent in the love of
doing good apart from any thought of recompense, that is the reward
lasting to eternity."
Heavenly Doctrines of the New Jerusalem 236

Friends in AAHL, I could go on and on.
I hope that is helpful to some of you.

Keith Roloson in Hotlanta

- - - -

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com> ,
'Russ Stewart' <rstewart@...> wrote:
>
> 'Pass It On' pages 264 & 265
>
> <<During the days of the Oxford Group meetings,
> Bill and Lois Wilson had started the practice
> of holding a 'quiet time' each morning ....
> Lois described these quiet times: 'They'd
> last 15 minutes or so. We were in bed and
> we'd get up and I'd make coffee and we'd have
> coffee in bed, and then we'd say a prayer
> together .... This is the prayer composed by
> Bill and recited by the Wilson's at these
> times:
>
> 'Oh Lord, we thank Thee that Thou art, that
> we are from everlasting to everlasting.
> Blessed be Thy holy name and all Thy bene-
> factions to us of light, and of service.
> May we find and do Thy will in good strength,
> in good cheer today. May Thy ever-present
> grace be discovered by family and friends --
> those here and those beyond -- by our
> Societies throughout the world, by men and
> women everywhere, and among those who must
> lead in these troubled times. Oh Lord, we
> know Thee to be all wonder, all beauty, all
> glory, all power, all love. Indeed, Thou
> are everlasting love. Accordingly, Thou has
> fashioned for us a destiny passing through
> Thy many mansions, ever in more discovery of
> Thee and in no separation between ourselves.'>>
>
> 'Pass It On,' page 274 note 2:
>
> <<Lois, who remained deeply in love with Bill
> for her entire adult life, said, years after
> his death: 'That business about no separation
> between ourselves is something that I cherish.'>>
>
> - - - -
>
> Original message no. 5060 was from
> George Cleveland <pauguspass@...>
> (pauguspass at yahoo.com)
>
> Had a wonderful visit at Stepping Stones last
> Friday .... There was a wonderful prayer typed
> out and lying on the bed in the upstairs
> bedroom. It was said to be a prayer Bill used
> in the mornings .... what source suggests
> it was his morning prayer?
>
> - - - -
>
> ANY ECHOES HERE OF SWEDENBORGIAN LITURGY?
>
> From: Baileygc23@...
> (Baileygc23 at aol.com)
>
> Has this prayer anything to do with

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 5151. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Swedenborgianism: Lois W.''s
grandfather''s book
From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/1/2008 12:35:00 PM

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Lois and Bill were married January 24, 1918
at the Swedenborgian Church of the New
Jerusalem in Brooklyn, NY.

Her grandfather performed the ceremony and
her brother Rogers served as best man.

Cheers
Arthur

- - - -

Original Message from: mdingle76

I thought it would be of
interest for the group to know that Lois
Wilson's grandfather (who was a reverend in
the Swedenborgian Church - the Church of New
Jerusalem), wrote a book called "Discrete
Degrees," which can been viewed on
http://www.stepstudy.org

Matt D.

- - - -

STEPSTUDY.ORG GIVES A LINK TO THIS SITE:

- - - -

http://www.theisticscience.org/books/burnham/index.htm

DISCRETE DEGREES
IN
SUCCESSIVE AND SIMULTANEOUS ORDER

ILLUSTRATED BY DIAGRAMS

BY THE
REV. N.C. BURNHAM

PHILADELPHIA
THE ACADEMY OF THE NEW CHURCH
1821 WALLACE STREET
1887

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++++Message 5152. . . . . . . . . . . . Margaret Whaley died July 27, 2008
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/4/2008 2:51:00 PM

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Margaret Whaley (wife of Searcy Whaley)

From: "Doug B." <dougb@aahistory.com>
(dougb at aahistory.com)

Margaret B. Whaley passed away July 27, 2008,
at the age of 96, after a life of great joy,
friendship and service to others.

She and her deceased husband, Searcy R.
Whaley, founder in the mid-fifties of hospitals
and clinics for alcoholics, had both been long
time residents of Dallas, Texas.

Margaret resided at Presbyterian Village North
in Dallas at the time of her death.

She was born April 28, 1912 in St. Louis,
Missouri, to Mr. and Mrs. F.W. Bettle.
As a young child Margaret and her family
moved to Big Spring, Texas, where she grew
up and graduated from high school. She was
installed into the Order of Eastern Star in
Big Spring, Texas in 1944. She was one of
the earliest members of the Al-Anon family
group.

Margaret was a legal secretary in Big Spring
before her marriage to Searcy in 1934. She and
Searcy were married for more that 68 years
before he passed away in 2003. Both were
members of First Baptist Church Dallas.

Margaret is survived by her brother Clayton
Bettle and wife Alta Mae, nephew Jim Bettle
and wife Deborah of Delaware, nephew Dick
Bettle and wife Liz of Texas, niece Kay
Beaird of Texas, and niece Doris Jean Yates
of California.

A viewing and visitation will be held Friday,
August 1 from 12:00 noon until 1:30 PM at
Sparkman/Hillcrest Funeral Home.

A brief service at 2:00 PM will follow in the
chapel in celebration of Margaret’s life.
Interment will be at Mount Hope Cemetery in
Anson, Texas on Saturday, August 2, 2008, at
10:00 AM

In lieu of flowers, the family suggests that
donations be made in Margaret’s name to Texas
Clinic and Hospital for Alcoholism, PO Box
35865, Dallas, TX 75235.

Yours in the fellowship, Doug Barrie

http://www.aahistory.com

- - - -

From the moderator:

For her husband's obituary, see Message 1381
From Ed Adami <eadami@direcway.com>

Searcy Whaley (1910 - 2003) obituary in the
Fort Worth Star Telegram 10/2/2003
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/1381

A search of the message board for "Searcy"
will turn up 38 messages talking about
him and his role in AA history.

Glenn C.

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++++Message 5153. . . . . . . . . . . . Are there any Emmet Fox recordings?
From: pauguspass . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/30/2008 7:42:00 PM

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I've been numbing out my fingers trying to
find any recording of Emmet Fox. With so many
talks given, one would think some kind of
recording survives somewhere.

Any thoughts from the group?

George Cleveland

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++++Message 5154. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Harper & Brothers and the Big
Book
From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/29/2008 4:49:00 PM

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Hi Bailey

In April 1938 (possibly May/June) Bill W
wrote to Dr Bob that he had dictated and
mimeographed two book chapters. They were
"There Is A Solution" and "Bill's Story."
Bill suggested to Dr Bob that his wife Anne
write a chapter portraying the wife of an
alcoholic (Florence R of NY was also under
consideration to write the chapter). As it
later turned out, the chapter "To Wives" was
written by Bill W much to the dismay of his
wife Lois. Bill informed Dr Bob that nearly
everyone in NY favored the book title
"Alcoholics Anonymous." He asked Dr Bob how
he felt about forming a charitable corporation
called "Alcoholics Anonymous." Again, this
was almost a year prior to publication of the
Big Book.

The same two chapters were sent as a
prospectus to a number of people to show
what the book would be like and to help in
fundraising for the book project.

One of the recipients, Dr Esther L Richards
(of The Johns Hopkins Hospital in Baltimore)
in a July 18, 1938 letter wrote a very
favorable reply to Bill W regarding the
2-chapter book prospectus. The name given
in the prospectus for the book was "Alcoholics
Anonymous." Dr Richards also suggested to Bill
W "I think you should get an A No. 1 physician
who has a wide knowledge of the alcoholics
medical and social problems to write an
introduction.

Shortly after Dr Richardson's recommendation,
Dr William D Silkworth wrote a July 27, 1938
letter of support for use in fundraising for
the book. It was later incorporated into the
Big Book chapter "The Doctor's Opinion" along
with extracts from a medical journal article
that Silkworth later published in July 1939
titled "Psychological Rehabilitation of
Alcoholics."

Exman met with Bill W in September 1938 so
there may have been more material to review
but I believe it was still the chapters
"There Is A Solution" and "Bill's Story" that
Exman read and used to form the basis of his
making an advance offer to Bill on the rights
to the book.

Cheers
Arthur

- - - -

From: James Flynn <jdf10487@yahoo.com>
(jdf10487 at yahoo.com)

I am given to undestand based on a talk given
by Jimmy Burwell that was recorded in 1957
that the two chapters presented to Harper &
Brothers were Bill and Bob's stories.
According to Jimmy Burwell these were the
first two chapters written. Jimmy Burwell also
claimed during this recorded talk that an
offer of three thousand dollars was made to
complete the book, and that it was suggested
by Harper and Brothers that the book should
include an outline for a program of recovery
(aka How It Works). The AA conference approved
literature Pass It On and AA Comes of Age gives
a slightly different account of this story and
states that an advance of only $1500 dollars
was made to complete the book.

Jim F.

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++++Message 5155. . . . . . . . . . . . Harper and the Big Book: Bill W''s
original story
From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/29/2008 4:36:00 PM

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The question was asked, what were the first
two chapters of the Big Book that Bill W
presented to the publishers?

The answer seems to be "Bill's Story"
(originally meant to be Chapter 2) and
"There Is a Solution" (originally meant to
be Chapter 1).

If you would like to read or download the
original version of "Bill's Story," go to
http://www.4dgroups.org
and click 'Documents/Links,' then 'Documents':
http://www.4dgroups.org/index.php?option=com_weblinks&catid=14&Itemid=23

Then click on "Bill's Original Story"
http://www.4dgroups.org/Files/Docs/billorig.pdf

I also have copy of the original version of
"There Is A Solution" but it is not yet on
our Fourth Dimension Group website.

These extremely long and wordy drafts were
written in the spring of 1938.

Bob S.

Robert Stonebraker
212 SW 18th Street
Richmond, Indiana 47347
765/935/0130

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++++Message 5156. . . . . . . . . . . . Spirituality and religion -
afterthought
From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/2/2008 3:57:00 AM

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In its series World Spirituality, SCM Press -
"the UK's best-known publisher of academic
theology" - included the title Spirituality
and the Secular Quest (1996). The introduction
asserts: "Being religious is not a necessary
condition for being spiritual." There are
contributions on, e.g, sources in ancient
Greece and Rome, aestheticism, new age,
feminist and gay spiritualities, psychotherapy

- and, in a chapter written by Ernest Kurtz,
12 Step Spirituality, in which he says, "As a
true practice, AA's 'sobriety' consists in
living the Twelve Steps. Such sobriety is a
synonym for spirituality, even for what others
term sanctity."

He adds, "How do adherents to Twelve Step
programs understand 'spiritual rather than
religious'? Twelve Step programs do offer a
vision classically termed 'religious'. But
expressions of religion historically seem to
involve: (1) doctrines that require belief;
(2) rules that command or prohibit actions;
(3) an institutional authority that
formulates the doctrines and enforces
the rules; and (4) worship and ritual that
express reverence for the professed source
of all the above. Twelve Step programs
require none of these ..."

LAURIE ANDREWS

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++++Message 5157. . . . . . . . . . . . Numbers question: Jack Alexander vs.
Rollie Hemsley
From: Michael F. Margetis . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/5/2008 5:48:00 PM

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Hi all,

In E. Kurtz "Not God" on page 101 it says that
after publication of Jack Alexander's Saturday
Evening Post story (March 1941) AA's membership
went from 2,000 to 8,000 in the last ten months
of that year.

In Sally & David Brown's biography of Marty
Mann on page 181 it says that as a result of
Rollie Hemsley's anonymity break in 1940 "he
brought more people into AA than did the
Saturday Evening Post article a year later."

I'm either missing something or one of these
statements can't be right. Can anyone shed
some light on this?

Thank you,

Mike Margetis

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++++Message 5158. . . . . . . . . . . . Historical Timeline on AA.org web
Site
From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/5/2008 7:57:00 PM

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For the AAHistoryLovers who haven't checked
it out yet, please visit the link below and
view a very nicely constructed AA history
timeline (with images). It also has a search
function.

http://aa.org/aatimeline/

I believe the work was the brainchild of
Amy Filiatreau, past Archives Director at
AAWS. The staff that created the timeline
have done quite a nice job.

Also check out the link

http://www.aa.org/lang/en/subpage.cfm?page=6

Visit the AA.org web site and check it out.
There has been a splendid upgrade to the design
and aesthetics of the web pages - quite nice.

Cheers

Arthur

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++++Message 5159. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr Bob`s Big Book
From: Tommy . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/6/2008 7:21:00 AM

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Does anyone know what happened
to Dr. Bob's Big Book?

tks
Tommy

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++++Message 5160. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Larry Jewell - AA in Houston
From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/5/2008 10:57:00 AM

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I was send the L.J. articles with the following
footnote. Hope it is helpful:

Larry Jewell came to Houston from Cleveland
with only a Big Book and a Spiritual Experience
resulting from having taken the Steps while
hospitalized. His Sponsors were Dr. Bob Smith
& Clarence Snyder. He had not attended an A.A.
meeting before coming to Houston.

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++++Message 5161. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Larry Jewell - AA in Houston
From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/5/2008 10:05:00 AM

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Larry J did a remarkable job in getting AA started in Texas. The text below
is from Bob P's unpublished AA history manuscript. From what I've been able
to research, it appears to be factual with the exception of the year stated
for Larry's death. Sadly Larry returned to drinking and the use of narcotics
and it led to his death in 1944 (not 1943 as stated below).

Bob P's summary further fails to mention that Larry's Houston Press articles
also attracted the first Texas woman AA member, Benita C, who later married
Larry J. In April 1940, the Alcoholic Foundation reprinted Larry J's Houston
Press articles as AA's first pamphlet.

One of Larry's articles uses the phrase "not religious, but spiritual" but
in other places/articles he uses the term "religious" in a very positive
context to describe the program (the word "religious" didn't seem to have
the pejorative context then that many regrettably assign to it today - care
was always exercised to explain that AA did not identify itself with any
specific religious denomination). If you take into account Dr Silkworth's
July 1939 Lancet article which was also included (in its entirety in AA's
first pamphlet) the word "religious" is used frequently and in quite a
positive manner to describe the nature of AA's program of recovery. The
pamphlet also included Dr Fosdick's review of the Big Book where he states
"The core of their whole procedure is religious."

Cheers
Arthur

From Bob P:

The colorful early history of A.A. in the Lone Star State led Bill W. to
refer to it at the St. Louis Convention as "the astonishing state of Texas."
The story begins in Cleveland in 1939, where a newspaperman, Larry J., had
"drunk himself into the gutter." Louis Seltzer, editor of the Cleveland
Press, remembered him and sent a search party to find him, offering to pay
for his hospital recovery. They found him in freezing weather with no coat
on, one lung collapsed from earlier tuberculosis and the other with a tube
sticking out of it through his chest. At the sanatorium, Larry slowly
recovered from d.t.'s, malnutrition, exposure and exhaustion. Told he would
be better off where the weather was warmer, he boarded a train for Houston
with a copy of Alcoholics Anonymous in hand upon reading it en route, he had
a spiritual experience and determined to try to help alcoholics when he
arrived.

He sought out Allan C. Bartlett, editor of the Houston Press, and after a
two-hour talk, persuaded him to run a series of articles on A.A. which Larry
J. wrote anonymously. Impressed by his creative brilliance, Bartlett hired
him as an editorial writer. The articles attracted the attention of Bishop
Clinton S. Quinn (Episcopal), who became an enthusiastic supporter and
immediately arranged for Larry to talk to meetings of church officials in
Houston and other towns in his diocese. They also came to the attention of
Bill W., who wrote Larry a congratulatory letter from New York. And most
importantly, the articles attracted some alcoholics. One of these was Roy Y.
from San Antonio, who had recently sobered up in Los Angeles A.A. Another
was Ed H., a great help to Larry in getting A.A. started, who was unable to
stay sober himself.

The first Houston A.A. meeting was held March 15, 1940, in a room in the
YWCA Bldg. The group continued to meet on Tuesdays with as many as 25
attending -- but often a different 25 each time! Ed H. and Roy Y. tried to
educate ministers and doctors without much success until they were referred
to Dr. David Wade at Galveston State Hospital. Dr. Wade was to remain a good
friend of A.A. Later, he and Ed H. were to help found A.A. in Austin (see
below). The Jack Alexander article in March 1941 brought in many inquiries,
one of them a defrocked preacher, Howell S. and his beloved wife Molly, who
also attended the meetings. Another was Ed F. who became particularly active
in Twelfth Stepping the flood of prospects, along with Ed H. Early members
from that time were:

Clarence "Bull" D., Earl D., Joe F., George P. (who later helped carry A.A.
to Albuquerque), and an enthusiastic and energetic woman, Esther E. (who
moved to Dallas and helped start A.A. there as well as afterward in San
Antonio). By the end of '41, there were 85 members.

Dissension developed when a transplant from Baltimore A.A. told the group
that in the East the group elected a steering committee which handled its
affairs. Founder Larry J. had been running the Houston group with something
of an iron hand, so the group decided to elect a steering committee. Larry,
full of resentment, pulled out of the group. Ed H. went with him, "not
because I thought he was right -- I thought he was wrong -- but because he
needed a friend." Larry slipped and was hospitalized. Soon afterward, Ed H.
went back to drinking. But by this time, A.A. was firmly rooted in Houston.
Larry came back to the old group in 1943, but died of his old ills later
that year [note: Larry died in 1944]. Ed H. went into the Navy, where he
stayed drunk as much as he could. Roy Y. went into the Army and was
transferred to Tampa, Florida, where he started an A.A. group. He remained
sober the rest of his life and was still active and well in 1985. Esther E.
took over as leader of the Houston group in 1942, and Hortense L. succeeded
her when she moved to Dallas. The group met in the basement of the
Ambassador Hotel in 1941. During the war years it met in other places: the
M.& M. Building, Franklin St., Milam St., Dooley St., and finally beginning
in '46 at 3511 Travis St. where it remained.

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jax760
Sent: Friday, August 01, 2008 3:46 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Larry Jewell - AA in Houston

Can anyone tell me more about Larry J? I know
he wrote that the six articles that appeared
in the Houston Press and I am familiar
with "The First AA Pamphlet".

What is Larry's history post 1940?

Any info available on fate of the pamphlet?

This pamphlet appears to be the origin of
"spiritual not religious," printed as "not
religious, but spiritual" in the 4th article.

Does anyone have any additional information
on this?

I am trying to research the history of the
description of AA as "Spiritual not Religious"
as used by either the pioneers such as
Larry J or in AA literature.

Any help is appreciated.

God Bless

------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

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++++Message 5162. . . . . . . . . . . . Barry L.''s claim for royalties for
Living Sober
From: Chris Budnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/4/2008 11:40:00 PM

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I have copies of some correspondence between
Barry L. and the General Service Board that
were in Dr. Bob's collection at Brown
University.

There is a letter from Barry to George Dorsey
on March 7, 1982 (Cc: Robert Pearson).

There is a reply to Barry from John Bragg on
May 25, 1982 (Cc: Robert Pearson).

Finally, there is a letter from Barry to
Gordon Patrick, dated February 14, 1983.

- - - -

The first letter outline Barry's claim to
royalties from the sale of Living Sober.

The second letter basically says "you
negotiated a deal for $4,000 in 1974 and
you're not getting any more."

The last letter concludes with Barry stating
that he is left with no choice but to file
a claim for $153,304.45 in retroactive
royalties.

Chris
_____________________________________

From: Mel B.
Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2008
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: Barry L. and Bill W's copy of
the Big Book manuscript

Hi Rick,

I was pleased to read this additional
information about Barry L., the manuscript,
etc. If his heirs made a bundle out of the
manuscript, it is probably poetic justice.
I think Barry did feel he deserved more
pay for what services he had rendered to
AA World Services and Lois supported him
in this effort. It failed, however, and
Barry died without getting any additional
bucks (at least to my knowledge). He was
virtually a son to Lois and accompanied her
or her trips. I took a photo of her greeting
Jack Bailey in Akron in 1978, with Barry
standing behind her. This is the only
photo I have of Barry, and I wish another
was available.

Mel
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mel Barger
melb@accesstoledo
(melb at accesstoledo.com)

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++++Message 5163. . . . . . . . . . . . Margarita L.
From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/7/2008 8:58:00 AM

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Does anyone know anything, beyond the few
details supplied in "Not God," about Margarita
L.?

Kurtz describes her as having been a student
of Jung and "Wilson's most proximate continuing
contact with Jung's thought." Wilson exchanged
letters with her, and she is mentioned in a
couple of letters to others.

I get the feeling she was American, but am
beginning to doubt even that. Most people are
findable, in some way, on ancestry.com and
under that name I can't turn up a plausible
trace of her. The name doesn't match anyone
mentioned in Jungian sources, either, but
those are of course not comprehensive. There
is a "Margaret" who would fit quite well, but
no evidence she was ever called "Margarita."

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++++Message 5164. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Dr Bob`s Big Book
From: rick tompkins . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/7/2008 6:10:00 AM

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The Akron Intergroup Archives has one of the
final multilith printings of the draft Big
Book that was the property of Dr. Bob.

It has no ‘red pencil’ edits in the fashion of
the “printer’s manuscript.”

Rick, Illinois

- - - -

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Dr Bob`s Big Book

Does anyone know what happened
to Dr. Bob's Big Book?

tks
Tommy

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++++Message 5165. . . . . . . . . . . . Timeline on Marty Mann and Yale
From: Ron Roizen . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/7/2008 2:35:00 PM

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Arthur posted the following link to an AA
chronology web site yesterday:

http://aa.org/ <http://aa.org/aatimeline/> aatimeline/

I took a look at it. Under the year 1944 is
offered, on one panel, a cameo description of
the launching of Marty Mann's organization and
its relationship to the Yale alcohol science
group. The text says in part:

"On behalf of the NCEA [Mann's new organiza-
tion], Marty embarks on a nationwide tour to
tell of her struggle with alcoholism." Cameos,
of course, leave out a lot. Yet, this
sentence leaves one to wonder why the Yale
alcohol science group, which funded Mann's and
her organization's activities from 1944-1949,
would underwrite her endeavor.

Below is a passage from an essay I published
in a book about five years ago, which may
clarify the matter a little (the full
stand-alone essay is available online at
http://www.roizen.com/ron/postrepeal.htm ).

Thanks.

Ron Roizen

Wallace, Idaho

In 1942, public relations specialist Dwight
Anderson (1942) further developed this
alcoholism theme by suggesting that the idea
afforded an excellent symbol with which to
clarify the differences between the new
scientific approach to alcohol and the dry
and wet mindsets. Two years later, in October,
1944, E.M. Jellinek and Marty Mann sought to
conjoin Anderson's disease concept focus with
what the Yale science group regarded as an
emergent human resource in AA's potential for
rapid, national growth. The Yale-based group's
idea was to use the disease concept theme as
a means for organizing a national, grassroots
organization that would offer information and
referral, advice to alcoholics and their
families, and -- not least importantly --
generate financial support for new scientific
research. AA, and particularly the families
of AA members, would thus provide a resource
for the emergent alcohol science not unlike
the relationship between American Cancer
Society (or other single-disease-advocacy
organizations) and cancer research.12

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++++Message 5166. . . . . . . . . . . . When did Bill W meet Rowland H in
person?
From: terry walton . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/7/2008 4:08:00 PM

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Good Afternoon,

Is there any documented history of when Bill
Wilson met and talked to Rowland Hazard to hear
what conversations Rowland and Carl Jung had?

The Big Book uses statements made from Carl
Jung to Rowland. Where would Bill have heard
this from? Directly from Rowland, or did he
rely on second hand information from Ebby?

We know Bill thanked Carl Jung for the forming
of step 1 in his talks in 1960 made to the
clergy. And he thanked Carl Jung directly in
his 1961 letter.

Is there any Oxford Group history to show
when Bill met and learned this from Rowland,
and what happened in the offices of Carl Jung?

Thank you,

Terry

- - - -

From the moderator:

See http://hindsfoot.org/archive3.html

The story of how the AA movement was begun,
starts with a wealthy alcoholic named Rowland
Hazard (1881-1945) who traveled to Zurich in
1926 and became a patient of the famous Swiss
psychiatrist Carl Jung. Jung finally told
Rowland that the only way alcoholics of his
sort could stop drinking was to immerse thems-
elves in the spiritual life.

But like a typical alcoholic, Rowland ignored
his advice, and had to go through seven more
years of misery (his drinking nearly killed
him on his hunting trip to Afica later on)
before he was willing to seek a spiritual
answer.

Recent research by Amy Colwell Bluhm Ph.D.
and Cora Finch has established that Rowland
arrived in Zurich in May 1926 (not 1931,
the date given in the older AA literature).
See Bluhm's article "Verification of C.G.
Jung’s analysis of Rowland Hazard and the
history of Alcoholics Anonymous" in the
American Psychological Association's journal
History of Psychology in November 2006 and
Cora Finch's long account of Rowland Hazard's
life and struggles with alcoholism at
stellarfire.org:

http://www.stellarfire.org/

By 1933, Rowland was drinking to the point
where he could not cope with even simple
everyday life. He sought help from a therapist
named Courtenay Baylor, who was associated
with the Emmanuel Movement and the Jacoby Club.
This was the only early twentieth century
group other than Alcoholics Anonymous which
had had any notable success in getting
alcoholics sober and keeping them sober.
Like Alcoholics Anonymous, the EM and JC
combined spirituality and psychological help
through a simple kind of lay therapy. See
Richard M. Dubiel, "The Road to Fellowship:
The Role of the Emmanuel Movement and the
Jacoby Club in the Development of Alcoholics
Anonymous":

http://hindsfoot.org/kdub2.html

Baylor pushed Rowland into taking Jung's
advice seriously. They were too far from
Boston for Rowland to become actively
involved in the Emmanuel Movment and the
Jacoby Club, so he became actively involved
instead in an upperclass Protestant evangelical
movement called the Oxford Group, and finally
got sober.

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

P.S. The traditional oversimplied AA account
(written in documents coming out of New York
AA) ignored the role of the Emmanuel Movement
and Jacoby Club in early AA history, and
tended to credit the Oxford Group for almost
everything that happened, in many situations
where there were other important influences
and sources involved. The first Boston AA
group began meeting at the home of the Jacoby
Club, for example, and was initially bound
to the Jacoby Club in the same way that early
Akron AA was bound to the Oxford Group.

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++++Message 5167. . . . . . . . . . . . Actual date of Bill W''s Winchester
Cathedral visit.
From: iouaa . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/11/2008 3:02:00 AM

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It must be getting quite close to the 90th
anniversary of this event. I know it is not
the same gravestone as Bill W saw but it would
be nice to walk aaround this cathedral and
think "If Bill W had not walked around here
90 years ago today..."

So how close can this date be pinpointed??

Phil

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++++Message 5168. . . . . . . . . . . . Tradition 8 and convention speaker
"riders"
From: stockholmfellowship . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/9/2008 8:27:00 AM

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In the entertainment business there is a contractual addendum for
performance/concert contracts called a "rider". This is the part of
the contract that stipulates the special requirement of the performer
for that gig. Most famously, many have heard of the bowl of green --
and only green -- M&Ms in the dressing room. Often times it includes
certain class of travel, entourage allowances, and a long menu of top
shelf liquor for their private backstage bar.

I have done service on many AA conventions in several cities over the
years of my sobriety. This past year I have gotten more and more
dismayed at the "riders" for AA convention speakers. There have been
demands for first-class travel, luxury suite or other expensive hotel
accommodations, lofty meal or per diem allowances, several days
advance accommodations, entertainment requests, and travel for family
members and/or sponsors or sponsees.

The more fancy the demands of a sober member of Alcoholics Anonymous
to come to a city to tell their experience, strength and hope, the
more I fear "professionalism" and the weakening of our 8th tradition.

- - - -

THE HISTORICAL QUESTIONS I AM ASKING:

What precedent is there for traveling and accommodating speakers for
AA conventions? Did Bill W. or Dr. Bob have any special or luxury
needs?

Did Lois or Ann have to come with them and, if so, was it in
cooperation with them participating in an Al-Anon meeting during the
same convention? (A necessary distinction, I feel, from a demand to
travel non-Al-Anon family on vacation.)

How does GSO shuttle our Trustees of AA to work conferences?

How do the main speakers for the International Convention travel?

Should/Must all speakers receive the same travel and accommodations?

- - - -

Please, I do not want to open a discussion into what controversies
speakers get into from the podium or anonymity breaks in promoting
speakers on posters and such. I would appreciate some background on
the balance of Tradition 8 and requests by speakers before they agree
to speak at AA conventions.

Thank you for any AA history on this issue.

________________________________________

From the moderator:

Please let us confine ourselves to answering
the specific historical questions which were
asked.

The questions simply concern how things were
actually done with Bill W. and Dr. Bob and
Lois and Anne, and how things are actually
done with AA Trustees, speakers at the
International Conventions, and so on. All
simply matter-of-fact questions.

General opinions and interpretations of how
the AA traditions ought to be interpreted
need to be posted in an AA discussion group,
such as (for example) the Common Solution
AA discussion group:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AA_Common_Solution_Group/

We all know how to preach lengthy sermons,
and talk about how we think things OUGHT to be
done, but please, with 1854 members in the
group, nobody would have time to read them
all, no matter how inspiring and edifying they
all were :-)

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

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++++Message 5169. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill W. and Rowland H.
From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/12/2008 10:46:00 AM

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Rowland H. was a Vestryman of Calvary Church
1938-40 and active in the Businessmen's Group
of the OG with Shep (until Shep ran for
Congress in 1940?); Bill W. was active at Calvary
in 1935-6 and maybe '37; When Rowland had a
relapse in '36, his mother suggested to his
brother Pier that they get in touch with the
Calvary OG people because they had helped
before (?1934-5), which may be the first time
any non-AA suggested someone get in touch with
Bill W or his friends about alcoholism.

It's possible Bill heard Rowland's story
directly from Rowland in 1934-5 or even
1936-7. We know he heard part of it
(including the implied 1931 date) from Cebra
(in fact there's a recording at GSO of Bill's
1954 conversation with Cebra and his wife
Lucette that includes quite a bit on Rowland),
possibly from Shep -- and of course Cebra may
have gotten it from Shep.

The best book on Bill's 1930s contacts with
Rowland may be Dick B's NEW LIGHT ON
ALCOHOLISM: GOD, SAM SHOEMAKER, AND AA
(rev ed Kihei 1999).

If that doesn't give the desired information
on personal contacts between Bill and Rowland,
Dick B may have found something since 1999.
It's possible Cora Finch on the HistoryLovers
may have something also.

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++++Message 5170. . . . . . . . . . . . Drinking Bay Rum?
From: rollemupjohnson . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/12/2008 12:22:00 AM

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Can anyone direct me to any AA literature
discussing drinking "Bay Rum"?

I'm sure I've heard it before, but can't
find it.

Thanks in advance,

John K., ( JKELL13@bellsouth.net )

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++++Message 5171. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr Bob`s Big Book
From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/12/2008 4:39:00 AM

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AA archives or Brown University?

I thought that Smithy sold a copy of the
Big Book to AA. The price I remember was
$25,000.

But searching to verify the fact, I could only
come across something from Brown University
saying they had Dr Bob's papers and the
Big Book and coffee pot.

I am sure that I would have heard this when
I was on AA committees some twenty years or
so ago .... but ???

Possibly you can correct me, if I am in error.

George

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++++Message 5172. . . . . . . . . . . . Sermon on The Mount publishing code
numbers
From: Fred . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/17/2008 9:54:00 AM

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In trying to research the different editions
of Emmet Fox's book, "The Sermon on the Mount,"
I learned that the editions that they used
in New york and Akron (1934 & 1935) did not
have the chapter about The Lord's Prayer.

This intrigued me as to what the letters below
the Copyright information designates and what
the sequence of their combinations actually
mean.

Does anyone know of or can refer me to a resource
that describes this numbering/lettering system?

Thanx,
Fred

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++++Message 5173. . . . . . . . . . . . Sample inventory on p. 65 of the Big
Book
From: johnhartie . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/16/2008 11:13:00 AM

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Is the inventory real on page 65 of the Big
Book? If it is, whose is it?

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++++Message 5174. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W. and Rowland H.
From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/15/2008 3:12:00 PM

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Wasn't Rowland H the person whom Bill W
described as probably having too many sherries
at a junior league coalition, or something like
that, when he was first introduced to the
Oxford group?

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++++Message 5176. . . . . . . . . . . . Anne Smith''s Journal
From: Ralph Cova . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/9/2008 10:35:00 PM

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Not long ago I was privileged to come into
possession of a copy of Anne Ripley Smith's
Journal 1933-1939. It is the Journal she
kept and shared with Dr. Bob, Bill W., and
the early people in the Alcoholics Anonymous
movement. It is supposed to have come from
AA's General Service Office in New York City.
I received 79 pages of which 28 are handwritten,
of which some appear to be duplicated. There
are 51 typed pages that Dr. Bob and Anne's
daughter Sue Smith-Windows typed.

On the written pages I have tried to duplicate
it as it was written, but there are some areas
that are just not decipherable. When the
original Journal was copied, there were pages
where some of the information on the pages
was cut off during the duplicating process.
I have not tried to alter or put in words
even when I thought I might know what was
intended to be said. I will leave that up
to you to fill in the blanks. Eventually
I will scan the complete document as I
received it and make those available also.

- - - -

From the moderator:

Since we cannot put attachments to
AAHistoryLovers messages, I have posted a
copy of these two transcripts (which are
in the form of Adobe Acrobat .PDF files) at

http://hindsfoot.org/annesmth.html

All those who wish, may take a look at
the two transcripts there.

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++++Message 5177. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Sermon on The Mount publishing
code numbers
From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/17/2008 8:31:00 PM

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Re-sent with corrections

At 08:54 8/17/2008, Fred wrote:

>In trying to research the different editions
>of Emmet Fox's book, "The Sermon on the Mount,"
>I learned that the editions that they used
>in New york and Akron (1934 & 1935) did not
>have the chapter about The Lord's Prayer.
>
>This intrigued me as to what the letters below
>the Copyright information designates and what
>the sequence of their combinations actually
>mean.
>
>Does anyone know of or can refer me to a resource
>that describes this numbering/lettering system?
>

That is the code Harpers used to indicate when the book was printed.

It was explained on this list very well not too long ago, but I can't
find the post right now.

I recorded the following. It was in a nicer form, but my cpu won't
reproduce it:

Harper & Brothers. Prior to 1912, the date on the title page should
match the last date on the copyright page. Began stating "First
Edition" on the copyright page in 1922. A letter code for the month
and year the book was printed, which would actually be earlier than
the official publication date, was introduced in 1912. In most cases
for first editions published between 1912 and 1922, the letter code
for the year on the copyright page should match (or precede) the date
on the title page.

Months:
A=January E=May I=September
B=February F=June K=October
C=March G=July L=November
D=April H=August M=December

Years:
M=1912 B=1927 R=1942 G=1957
N=1913 C=1928 S=1943 H=1958
O=1914 D=1929 T=1944 I=1959
P=1915 E=1930 U=1945 K=1960
Q=1916 F=1931 V=1946 L=1961
R=1917 G=1932 W=1947 M=1962
S=1918 H=1933 X=1948 N=1963
T=1919 I=1934 Y=1949 O=1964
U=1920 K=1935 Z=1950 P=1965
V=1921 L=1936 A=1951 Q=1966
W=1922 M=1937 B=1952 R=1967
X=1923 N=1938 C=1953 S=1968
Y=1924 O=1939 D=1954
Z=1925 P=1940 E=1955
A=1926 Q=1941 F=1956

My printing of Sermon on the Mount is coded K-P, so it was printed in
October, 1935.

The first printing of the 12x12 is coded D-C, indicating March, 1953.

I had not heard that the chapter on the Lord's Prayer was left out of
the original versions. When I was in prep school in the mid-50s, we
had a vesper service before dinner and every year the Headmaster
would give a series of talks from Fox on the Lord's Prayer. The book
brought back fond memories when I arrived in A.A. and read it.

I would be interested in when the addition was made.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

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++++Message 5178. . . . . . . . . . . . Sgt. Bill S. passed away at 1 p.m.
yesterday
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/18/2008 7:59:00 PM

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Bill Swegan, the chief spokesman for the
wing of early A.A. which emphasized the
psychological aspects of the program, passed
away at 1 p.m. on Sunday, August 17, 2008.

Born June 29, 1918, sober July 5, 1948,
died August 17, 2008

90 years old, sober 60 years

In A.A. circles, Bill Swegan was a close
associate of Mrs. Marty Mann, Yev Gardner,
E. M. Jellinek, and Searcy Whaley.

Survived by his children, as well as his wife
Mary, the love of his life, whose father was
the noted psychiatrist Dr. Louis Jolyon
"Jolly" West. Bill Swegan and Mary's father
worked together to create the pioneering
alcoholism treatment program at Lackland in
the 1950's.

Notes of condolence can be sent to Bill and
Mary's home address:

William E. Swegan
152 Bear Flag Road
Sonoma, California 95476

See Bill's article "The Psychology of
Alcoholism" at:

http://hindsfoot.org/BSV02Psy.html

along with the little pamphlet he used to
hand out to alcoholics who entered his
AA-based treatment program:

http://hindsfoot.org/BSV01Thr.html

For photos of Bill, Mary, and Dr. West, see:

http://www.geocities.com/glennccc@sbcglobal.net/aapix02.html

http://hindsfoot.org/essays.html

http://hindsfoot.org/kBS4.html

Bill was a dear friend, a truly good man,
and I am going to miss him more than words
could ever say.

Glenn C.

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++++Message 5179. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W. and Rowland H.
From: Tom White . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/17/2008 5:11:00 PM

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No, I think that was OG member "Shep" who
visited Bill either in Towns or Brooklyn
with Ebby in 1934.

Tom W.

On Aug 15, 2008, at 6:12 PM, Baileygc23@aol.com wrote:

> Wasn't Rowland H the person whom Bill W
> described as probably having too many sherries
> at a junior league coalition, or something like
> that, when he was first introduced to the
> Oxford group?

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++++Message 5180. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W. and Rowland H.
From: John Lee . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/18/2008 12:37:00 PM

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Shep Cornell was the putative sherry-sipper.

The Bill Wilson quote about sherries at the
cotillion can be found on pages 17 and 118
of Not God by Ernest Kurtz: "pantywaist[s]
whose nearest exposure to alcoholism has
been going wild one night on too many
sherries at a Junior League cotillion."
Kurtz cites Robert Thompsen's Bill W.
pp.211-12 as his source.

Rowland wasn't singled out by Bill Wilson,
but Rowland's patrician background would have
made him suspicious to Bill. Wilson seems
to have been more irritated by "Ivy League[r]"
Shep Cornell, one of the three Oxford Group
members who rescued Ebby in Vermont, and who
also accompanied Ebby to a followup visit to
Bill in Towns Hospital in 1934.

John Lee
Pittsburgh

On Fri, 8/15/08, Baileygc23 at aol.com
<Baileygc23@aol.com> wrote:

Wasn't Rowland H the person whom Bill W
described as probably having too many sherries
at a junior league coalition, or something like
that, when he was first introduced to the
Oxford group?

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++++Message 5181. . . . . . . . . . . . Bob / Anne, Bill / Lois, trustees,
speakers at internationals
From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/15/2008 1:40:00 PM

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This can be only a partial answer to the
questions raised on payment for travelers to
AA functions.

On Anne and Dr Bob at Conventions, etc., of
course Anne died the year before the 1950
International, and Bob was driven over for
his brief appearance (and the registration
fee was $1.50, for what that's worth).

When Bob and Anne went up to the Camp Karephree
Founders' Day frolics, they drove, and stayed
over with friends.

When Bob came east in 1939 (I think it was),
he and Anne stayed at Bill and Kathleen R's
in Hackettstown. After that I believe they
stayed with Bill and Lois or with family or
with other AA friends (or possibly at an Inn
in St Johnsbury?) -- no AA payments.

The files should show the degree to which
Bill's and Lois's expenses were underwritten
by AA at the Internationals, and then Lois's.

The Trustees at their Quarterly meetings at
the Crowne Plaza in recent years have their
rooms paid for by GSO (or AAWS/Grapevine) as
a bloc (cheaper that way), and are offered
reimbursement for travel and parking (but I
recall being told that they were told the
CP Parking Garage was too expensive so use
the cheaper Days' Inn garage down on the next
corner).

Non-AA Speakers at the Conventions have, from
the evidence I've seen, been put up as cheaply
as possible; I don't know their per-diem. AA
Members on panels have been assumed to be there
for themselves -- generally no reimbursement
and take what you get on quarters.

The local Area where I live voted not to cover
spouses' expenses at the Convention/Assembly
back in 1998: I can't say if that still holds
but suspect it does.

Our History & Archives Gathering has on a
couple of occasions put featured speakers up
for a night at a Holiday Inn Express ($75)
or approximate equivalent, and once paid full
and once partial expenses for long-distance
bus transportation to a couple of far-travelers
-- but Mel B. drove himself from Toledo to
Harrisburg at his own expense, and Glenn C.
twice from South Bend to Lebanon, Pennsylvania.

Back around the end of WW2, Joe F. did offer
to fly Bill W. to Karephree in the midst of
Bill's depression -- but that would have been
Joe's private gift to Bill (who was too
depressed to come in any case).

And over the years anecdotal evidence indicates
quite a number of travelers have declined to
have their ways paid by AA or even by members
of AA (except, by richer members, in cases of
extreme financial exigency).

- - - -

The original message was 5168
"Tradition 8 and convention speaker 'riders'"
from <stockholmfellowship@yahoo.com> at
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/5168

- - - -

From: charles Knapp <cdknapp@pacbell.net>
(cdknapp at pacbell.net)

Hello Group,

When Bill came to speak in Southern California,
there were any number of members that would
have been thrilled to put Bill or Bill and
Lois up in their home during their stay. If
they were in the San Diego area they oftentime
they stayed with Bill's mother or Jimmy and
Rosa Burwell.

If in the Los Angeles area in the 1940's they
stayed with some of AA pioneers such as Doc H.,
Pete C., Cliff W., and Barney H. Doc H. had
a cabin in the San Bernardino mountains that
Bill stayed at on more than one occasion.

Starting around the late 1940's and early
1950's Bill spent most of his visits at
Chuck C.'s house. After Chuck got sober he
did very well financially and had a big home
overlooking the Pacific Ocean in Laguna Beach.
Bill said he felt as if he could really relax
while at Chuck's place. After the 1955
International Convention in St Louis Bill came
out and stayed about a week at Chuck's home.

I have only heard of one time that Bill and
Lois' traveling expenses were paid by local
members and that was their visit in 1947.
Several groups pitched in to bring Bill and
Lois to the Long Beach, California, area.
The women gave a luncheon for Lois and big
meetings were planned to hear Bill talk. I
am sure some of the more well off members paid
for train or plane tickets when they visited at
other times, but that part of the story was
never mentioned.

As for the International Conventions, I spoke
on the Archives Panel at the 2000 Convention
and I had to pay my own way. I received no
perks from the GSO and was told that when I
was invited.

Also if you read the Wilson-Burwell Letters you
will see Jimmy was a little put out at the fact
his expenses were not paid to attend the 1965
International Conventions. So I guess I was in
good company

Hope this helps

Charles from California

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++++Message 5182. . . . . . . . . . . . Does AA in the media help people
know more about it?
From: Aloke Dutt . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/18/2008 11:38:00 AM

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I do remember seeing results of a survey
conducted on the streets of some US cities
asking people if they had heard of AA.

If I recollect right, in the states in which
AA was featured often on radio & newspapers
more people on the streets knew about AA.

Can I get some more information on this?

In our Intergroup here in North India,
some feel it's waste of money & effort to
publicize AA in the media.

Thanks,

Aloke
in North India

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++++Message 5183. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W. and Rowland H.
From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/19/2008 8:36:00 AM

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In Message 5179, Tom White <tomwhite@cableone.net>
(tomwhite at cableone.net) wrote:

> No, I think that was OG member "Shep" who
> visited Bill either in Towns or Brooklyn
> with Ebby in 1934.
>
> Tom W.

Yes, Shep was a much more immediate presence
in Bill's Oxford Group life than Rowland, and
he was not an alcoholic although he probably
did stop drinking out of respect for OG
clean-living tradition. There was no specific
rule against drinking for OG members. It all
depended on their individual guidance.

In her book "Lois Remembers," Lois says she
and Bill and Ebby and Shep were regular
attenders of the Calvary Church OG meeting.
My impression is that Rowland did not attend
that meeting. It was for ordinary OGs and not
the top team. Shep probably went to support
Ebby, Bill and others. I'm not sure how much of
Rowland's time was spent in New York in that
period -- apparently not very much, as he
had residences in Rhode Island, Vermont and
California. Shep, on the other hand, was deeply
involved in the OG (more so than Rowland) and
in New York full-time.

I've read speculation that Rowland visited
Bill in Towns hospital the last time Bill was
there, but Bill (I'm going primarily on
material in Dick B.'s book, "The Conversion
of Bill W.") never said so. Also, Rowland had
been on a major OG mission to the "West,"
including Canada, over the previous couple of
weeks and there is no evidence he was in New
York at the time Bill was in Towns. Rowland
did keep in close touch with Ebby from the
summer of 1934 through late 1935, and brought
him to New Mexico in August 1935. I can't
believe Rowland could have missed being in
the same place with Bill at some point.

One intriguing detail: James Houck, the Oxford
Group old-timer who was involved with the AA
back-to-basics people, remembered attending
OG meetings in Frederick, Maryland, with Bill
in 1935-1937. That is quite a long period of
time and I'm not sure how many meetings Bill
could really have attended there, but I do know
that Rowland gave his testimony at a large
public OG meeting in Frederick in 1935.

Cora

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++++Message 5184. . . . . . . . . . . . Dates in Sgt. Bill Swegan''s life
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/19/2008 3:20:00 PM

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William E. Swegan
(Sgt. Bill S.)
Dates in his life

June 29, 1918 Bill Swegan born in Niles, Ohio

November 11, 1918 the Armistice ends World War I

1923 death of his mother

1926 his father remarried

May 20-21, 1927 Charles A. Lindbergh flew from
Roosevelt Field (near New York City) to Paris
in the Spirit of St. Louis in 33 hrs. 39 min.

October 1929 the stock market crash began the
period of the great depression

March 4, 1933 banks closed and business
virtually at a standstill for a more than a week

June 1936 Bill Swegan graduated from high school

December 24, 1939 Christmas Eve, Bill's first
drink, got drunk (working for the local
Firestone Service Store). Turned in his
resignation three times, but returned to
working for Firestone each time, there for
the next three years. He transferred to
Portsmouth, Virginia, then quit. Came back
to Ohio and was hired again as Service Manager.

1938 Bought his first automobile (1929 Model
A Ford), Service Manager at the Firestone in
Ohio.

September 1, 1939 Germany invaded Poland
(Great Britain and France declared war on
Germany on Sept. 3)

December 1939 Bill enlisted in the Army Air
Force for the first time. (Did not see his
family "for almost four years." This put him
back in the states on furlough in the summer
of 1943.) Army Air Force recruit training at
Langley Field, Virginia, in December 1939.
Sleeping in tents in the damp and cold.
December 24th it started to snow. Then he
volunteered to go to Hawaii (via Fort Slocum
on a small island near New Rochelle, New York,
a troopship through the Panama Canal, and
San Francisco).

April 1940 arrived in Hawaii

December 7, 1941 the Japanese attack on Pearl
Harbor and Hickam Army Air Base (which was
right next to the harbor). Bill runs through
the rain of bombs and bullets; his best
friends are all killed.

June 13, 1942 Bill was promoted to first
sergeant, which at that time was a rank in
addition to being a position (at 23 years old,
the youngest first sergeant ever in Air Force
history), 362nd Material Squadron, Hickam Field.

June 1943 Bill was shipped back to the states
in the summer of '43, to go to Aviation Cadet
School in LaGrande, Oregon (with courses at
Eastern Oregon College beginning July 6, 1943,
but washed out of the program as a result of
a drinking escapade.

Nov. 26, 1943 transferred to Goldsboro, North
Carolina, and shipped to New Guinea. Stationed
at Nadzab, New Guinea (where he caught dengue
fever and also picked up his malaria). Then
the island of Biak, then Mindora in the
Philippine Islands.

At some point prior to the Japanese surrender,
Bill was shipped back to the United States and
sent to Camp Atterbury (about 35 miles south
of Indianapolis, Indiana) prior to discharge.

August 14, 1945 Japan accepted surrender terms.
Bill was at Camp Atterbury, on pass to the
nearby town of Columbus, Indiana, and was hit
on the head and knocked unconscious by an
object thrown from a window. (Japan did not
actually sign the surrender until September 2.)
The death of Bill's stepmother in August 1945
fits in here somewhere.

August 19, 1945 discharged from the service.
Worked for General Electric, in the lamp
division, eventually fired for showing up
drunk for work too many times.

February 1946 the divorce became final, and
Bill's first marriage came to an end. There
was a daughter whom he only saw once again,
many years later. He had gone to work at a
General Motors plant, which went on strike at
the time he was put in the hospital for malaria
(and for his drinking). Wife granted a divorce
when the judge found out. Refused admission
to a Veteran's Hospital because of the alcoholism.
First contact with A.A. His ex-wife eventually
told him she would never remarry him even if
he did stop drinking. He reenlisted in the Air
Force in Toledo, Ohio. His first duty station
was Wright-Patterson Air Force base in Dayton,
Ohio. Then he was sent to the Reserve Training
Base at Romulus, Michigan.

May 2, 1946 married his second wife Ann on
May 2, 1946. She already had two children.

May 1947 Ann had become pregnant. Bill quit
drinking for a few months, his second contact
with A.A.

Ann gave birth in May 1947 to a little boy
(who became the third child in their combined
family). Summer of 1947, Bill was transferred
to Offut AFB in Omaha, Nebraska.

July 5, 1948 got sober in AA while stationed
at Mitchel Air Force Base on Long Island,
New York. He attended meetings with Yev
Gardner, Mrs. Marty Mann's right hand man.
Marty pulled strings and got the Air Force
to appoint Bill Swegan to work full time with
alcoholics at Mitchel AFB. This was the first
officially sanctioned AA-related alcoholism
treatment program in the U.S. military.

1949 Bill attended the Yale School of Alcohol
Studies, where he studied with E. M. Jellinek.
Searcy Whaley (who had gotten sober on May 5,
1946, and therefore had two more years of
sobriety than Bill) was also a student there,
and took young Bill under his wing.

1951-1953 Bill was appointed to teach in the
Air Force ROTC program at Kent State University,
right outside Akron, Ohio. He spent a year
going into St. Thomas Hospital and talking with
Sister Ignatia whenever he could get off work,
and observing the way her alcoholism treatment
program there was run.

1953-1961 at Lackland Air Force Base in San
Antonio, Texas, officially assigned by the
Air Force once more to work with alcoholics
full time. He was initially assigned to the
chaplain's office as a "Chaplain's Assistant,"
but the head of psychiatry at the military
hospital there, Dr. Louis Jolyon "Jolly" West,
had him re-assigned to psychiatry as a
psychiatric social worker.

June 1956 Bill authored (with Dr. West) "An
Approach to Alcoholism in the Military Service,"
in the American Journal of Psychiatry, where
he documented the way he had achieved a fifty
percent success rate in treating military
alcoholics (with others who had gone through
his program getting sober later on). Their
program emphasized the psychological side of
A.A. instead of the spiritual side.

1957-1961 after Dr. West's departure in 1957
(he ended up as head of the Psychiatry
Department at UCLA), Bill's position at
Lackland began to erode. Bill had to go
through three years of continuous struggle,
with no support from higher up, before he
could in his 21 years of Air Force service
and retire.

1961 he retired from the Air Force as a
Senior Master Sergeant. He signed a contract
to establish a treatment center in Lubbock,
Texas, and became the director of the
Arnett-Benson Rehabilitation Center as it
was called.

Early 1962 his father died, and Bill decided
to move back to Ohio. Living in Niles, Ohio
with his wife Ann and five boys (David, Robert,
Bill, Albert, and Alfonso), working for
Sanzenbacher Motors for three months.

1963-1965 Director of the Blood Donor Program
for the American Red Cross in that county.
They lived in the old homestead.

1965-1971 hired by the San Jose, California,
Red Cross Chapter to head their Donor
Recruitment Program, and worked there for
six years.

1965 Navy Commander Richard Jewell and Captain
Joseph Zuska, M.D., founded the world famous
Navy alcoholism treatment program at Long Beach,
California, in 1965. While they were setting
it up, Jewell brought Bill Swegan to Long Beach
to tell them how his program at Lackland had
been set up in the 1950's (a comparison of the
two programs will show the many similarities).
The U.S. military had a working, officially
sanctioned alcoholism treatment program once
again, this time in the Navy.

1971-1978 Bill took up a civil service position
as Chief of the Alcoholism Program at Fort Ord
in California, attempting to start an alcoholism
treatment program in the U.S. Army.

1978-1983 Bill took an EAP position at the
Naval Air Rework Facility at Alameda Naval
Air Station in California for the last five
years of his work career.

1983 He had made a pledge to retire at 65,
and when that day finally arrived, retired
from his job at the Naval Station. Upon
retirement, he received the Meritorious Service
Award, the Navy's highest award for a civilian
at a duty station.

1993 his second wife Ann began to have
difficult mental problems.

January 10, 2000 Ann died from aspiration
pneumonia due to cerebrovascular accident.
Seven years of difficult times before that:
agitated dementia, schizophrenia, and sick
sinus syndrome.

March 15-17, 2002 Indiana State A.A. Conference
in Columbus, Indiana. Bill began working on
his book "On the Military Firing Line" telling
the story of his life and describing his
alcoholism treatment method.

The last six years of Bill's life: He
continued living in Sonoma, California, and
traveling around speaking to AA conferences
and gatherings, including giving the keynote
address at the 8th National Archives Workshop
in Fort Lauderdale, Florida, in 2003. He
married Mary, daughter of Dr. Louis Jolyon West;
theirs was a truly loving and devoted
relationship. On April 23, 2007, President
George W. Bush sent Bill a presidential
citation and a letter thanking him for his
service to the country. In October 2007,
Bill was given an honorary certification
from the California Certification Board of
Alcohol and Drug Counselors, the only time
such a certification has ever been granted.

August 17, 2008 death

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++++Message 5185. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bob / Anne, Bill / Lois,
trustees, Public Information
From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/19/2008 11:32:00 AM

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When Bill and Lois went to Maryland they would
stay with Fitz Mayo and his wife. This was
during the time our basic text was being
written. His house was on land that was given
to him by the Burwell family. Bill did not
write when he visited there but Lois did take
care of Fitz's wife during her illness. Bill
and Fitz were close friends. There is very
little known about Fitz M.(see my previous
posts on Jimmy B. and Fitz M. for more
information). He may have been the glue that
held AA in NY together when battle lines were
being drawn on the Higher Power and God as
I understand Him issue.(Please correct me if
I am wrong; This is only my opinion)

On the early visits to Philadelphia, Bill and
others were put up in the homes of AA's and
AA's Associate Members like Dr's A. Weise
Hammer and Dudley Saul. These non-alcoholics
made it possible for A.A. to grow and survive.
We owe a great debt to these men and women.
The travel during this time was sometimes by
car but mainly by train. Arrangements were
made by post or by Western Union telegraph.
Telephones were somewhat of a luxury at the
time. This is why we have such fine records
of our early history. Once telephones became
commonplace we began to lose a lot of our
history.

PUBLIC INFORMATION COMMITTEE

The first committee after the Gripe Committee
in Philadelphia A.A. was P. I. (Public
Information Committee) It was felt that we
needed to tell our story rather than someone
else who was unfamiliar with us. P. I. is
essential in Intergroups and in Area structure.

The dirty windows at AA's second clubhouse and
1st "fully functional" Clubhouse led to the
formation of the "Gripe Committee."

Yours in Service,
Shakey Mike Gwirtz
Going to E Dorset for the Archives weekend at
the Wilson House this upcoming weekend with
Mitchell K., Barefoot and others.

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++++Message 5186. . . . . . . . . . . . Memorial service for Sgt. Bill
Swegan
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/19/2008 4:42:00 PM

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Noon on Saturday, August 23, 2008

Memorial service for "Sgt. Bill"

William E. Swegan
at Duggan's Mission Chapel
525 W. Napa Street,
Sonoma, California 95476
Phone: 707/996/3655

In lieu of buying flowers, his wife Mary has
suggested that A.A. members might drop an
extra dollar or so in the basket in memory of
Bill at the next A.A. meeting they attend.

For non-A.A. people, the other vocation to
which Bill devoted himself over his long
career in helping people was the Red Cross
blood donor program, which he always said he
regarded as a spiritual program because we
gave of ourselves to save another human
being's life. So a similar donation there
could also serve as a suitable honor to
Bill's memory.

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++++Message 5187. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W. and Rowland H.
From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/19/2008 9:58:00 PM

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It was Shep C and he reputedly visited Bill at
his home in Brooklyn more than once (together
with Ebby).

From my own readings there are documented
inferences that the relationship between Bill
and Rowland was somewhat more cordial than
is reflected in the previous postings on this
topic.

Rowland was one of the attendees at Stewarts
Cafeteria after Oxford Group meetings (along
with Bill W, Ebby T, Cebra G and Shep C). This
is a further inference that Rowland was also
a meeting attendee.

In his autobiography Bill W notes that Rowland
was a regular visitor to the Calvary Rescue
Mission (together with Cebra G, Shep C and
Ebby T) to help work with alcoholics.

Finally, as noted in a previous post by
Jared L, both Bill and Rowland served on the
Oxford Group's Businessmen's Team.

Cheers
Arthur

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++++Message 5188. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dates in Sgt. Bill Swegan''s
life
From: Bob Schultz . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/20/2008 11:44:00 AM

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1961 he retired from the Air Force as a
Senior Master Sergeant. He signed a contract
to establish a treatment center in Lubbock,
Texas, and became the director of the
Arnett-Benson Rehabilitation Center as it
was called.

Early 1962 his father died, and Bill
decided ....

- - - -

Having sobered up in Lubbock in 1976, the
Sarge may have been associated with Reese Air
Force base West of town that was originally
part of the Army Air corps. I believe that
clinic helped many, but had a short life.

Lubbock eventually became the home of a med
school that was very proactive in the treatment
of alcoholism, having a dean (George T) who
had begun his recovery in 1969 in Co. That
medical school was awarded four career teacher
awards in alcoholism in the 1970's. One was
in recovery, three others were not. It was
George's belief that it helped if you were
in recovery to treat the illness but in some
cases (albeit rare) people not in recovery,
could do a good job.

George and Bill D (IDAA) from Morristown NJ
started AA/medical meetings that were held in
El Paso and San Antonio discussing medical
issues associated with substance abuse and
then having separate open AA meetings. These
took place in the late 70's and into the 80's.

Texas Tech University now is one of three
universities(started at Tech) that offer
opportunity to students in recovery. I saw
a woman in her 60s get a degree a few years
ago who would never had the chance without
this program. Many, many stories out of
this program started by Carl Anderson in the
80s and taken to its present level by Kitty
Harris Wilkes.

Texas Tech University
Center for the Study of Addiction and Recovery
Lubbock, Texas:

http://www.depts.ttu.edu/hs/CSA/

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++++Message 5189. . . . . . . . . . . . When was Bill''s visit to Winchester
Cathedral?
From: dobbo101 . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/20/2008 4:08:00 AM

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What was the actual date of Bill W's Winchester
Cathedral visit, as close as we can tell?

Message 5167 from "iouaa"
<philip.thompson80@virgin.net> (philip.thompson80 at virgin.net)
has already asked this question, but I have
seen no attempts to answer it.

- - - -

From the moderator:

Pass It On pages 58-61 says that Bill W. left
the U.S. for England in August 1918.

And it says that he had left England and had
been in France for a while by the time the
Armistice was signed on November 11, 1918.

So his visit to Winchester Cathedral was
somewhere between those two dates, but can
we pin it down any closer than that?

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

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++++Message 5190. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Drinking Bay Rum?
From: Norm The Tinman . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/21/2008 9:35:00 PM

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Bay Rum was shaving lotion

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++++Message 5191. . . . . . . . . . . . Esther E
From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/23/2008 4:58:00 PM

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A while back "Shakey" asked for information on Esther E -- here's what
I have, courtesy of Searcy W.

FIRST WOMAN IN A.A. IN TEXAS – ESTHER E.

(Editor's note: Esther E. is deceased. However, her story did not die
with her. We found a tape that had been made of a talk she made when
she was twelve years sober [in 1953?] and this is what she said.
[Additional note: Esther E. was apparently b. around 1901/2, d. in
Dallas June 7 1960. Frank was b. in New Orleans Sept 9 1899 and d. in
Kerrville TX Sept 1979.])

"I'm Esther and I am an alcoholic. Through following the program of AA
to the best of my ability, I have been sober since May 16, 1941. The
only way I can maintain my sobriety is to remember always what it was
like twelve years ago this weekend.
"I think we have to do time in AA before we realize that it is going
to work for us. I only know that it does work if you desire it with
your whole heart without reservation.
"I came from a family where alcohol was socially accepted. We lived in
New Orleans, Louisiana and there was plenty to drink everywhere –
cocktail lounges and bar rooms. I'm an Episcopalian and we bless our
sacraments with wine. I can't remember a dinner at home that we did
not have white wine and claret on the table. The family drank sherry
now and then – a cordial after dinner. My sister, brother and I liked
crème de menthe. However, I never really knew the effects of alcohol
because our drinks had very little alcohol in them.
"In fact, it was not until about 1931 that my drinking first caused
any comment. After seven years of marriage I decided that I would
divorce my husband, Frank. I went home to my parents. We were living
in Dallas at the time and it only took one month to get a divorce.
Well, I had a time. Finally, I couldn't stand living with my parents
any longer – them watching me everything I did – and Frank was coming
to see me there. I had such a feeling of insecurity – finally I went
back to Dallas and remarried my husband. We left Dallas and moved to
Tulsa. That was the period when all the boys and Esther got drunk and
the wives didn't and they would talk about it.
"We were in Tulsa for about three years and we moved back to Dallas. I
began drinking heavier and heavier. Every night when Frank was in town
he would come home to find me passed out. When he went on a trip
connected with his work, he would come home to find me passed out.
Finally, one morning, he said to me, `Esther, why do you do this?'
"It was decided that a psychiatrist might help me. I went to talk to
the doctor, got drunk again and wound up in a booby hatch where they
kept me for seventeen days. I came out of there in worse shape than I
went in. And I was very resentful of my husband for putting me in that
place. From then on, my drunks ended up with me in a nursing home or
at home with a trained nurse to sober me up. This was in 1936 or `37.
"For Christmas that year my husband gave me a dog, a cocker spaniel.
We were living in an apartment and, in consideration of the new dog, I
found a house and rented it. I began taking the "Samaritan treatment"
to sober up. That is an excruciating way to get sober, the "nip"
treatment. Nothing helped. The church tried to help me; a doctor in
the congregation took an interest in helping me - he thought I had a
vitamin deficiency and shot me hill of vitamins, Of course, that did
not keep me sober. I would take my vitamins, stop at the Triangle Drug
Store and drink two beers, stop by the liquor store and get a pint of
gin and go home.
"Finally, in 1940 we went down to Houston. My husband thought a change
of scene might help me stay sober. That was my last year to drink –
nothing left but to try to stay sober. Nothing really helped. Then in
April 1941 I got drunk and decided to take my dog for his daily walk.
I staggered down the sidewalk and suddenly the patrol car stopped,
drove my dog home and drove me to jail. I was in jail only a few hours
when they called my husband to come and get me. That was the day I hit
bottom.
"Just a week before that (I later learned) someone had sent my husband
the article in the Saturday Evening Post by Jack Alexander about AA.
He was afraid to show it to me right then. I was so resentful of
everything he did. He waited another week or two while I continued to
drink. He was out of town and came home to find me passed out again.
The next morning he came to my room and said, "Esther, I'm not going
to lecture you or criticize any more, but I want you to read this
article about how some people are staying sober in AA." Frank said if
I would try this new thing, he would go along with me but if I did
not, l would have to go home to my parents… He could not stand by and
watch me destroy myself anymore.
"When he left me, I took several drinks to get my eyes to focus and I
read the article – through and through. From the very first paragraph
something began happening to me. I realized there were other people in
this world like me, that I was sick with a disease called alcoholism.
It was feeling of relief and I wanted to learn more about it. For the
first time I realized there was something horribly wrong with me. The
article was the first thing that had ever reached me. I told my
husband I wanted to try this AA. I wrote to New York and received a
personal note from Ruth Hock giving me the name of Larry Jewell. I
telephoned him and learned that he was in the hospital. So, naturally,
I got a pint of White Swan Gin and stayed drunk from Monday to Friday.
"That Friday night, May 16, 1941, at five minutes to 6:00 p.m., I had
a half water glass of White Swan Gin and with it, I humbly asked God
to help me. I have not had a drink since. The next day I went to
Larry's house and talked with his wife Bonita. And I met Ed H. and Roy
Y. and all those first members ... and the happiest life I have ever
known."

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++++Message 5192. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Does AA in the media help people
know more about it?
From: dianeea2003 . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/23/2008 10:03:00 AM

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--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Aloke Dutt" <alokedutt@...>
wrote:
>
> I do remember seeing results of a survey
> conducted on the streets of some US cities
> asking people if they had heard of AA.
>
> If I recollect right, in the states in which
> AA was featured often on radio & newspapers
> more people on the streets knew about AA.
>
> Can I get some more information on this?
>
> In our Intergroup here in North India,
> some feel it's waste of money & effort to
> publicize AA in the media.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Aloke

- - - -

In Canada as well as all of AA world wide we provide statistics to
cooperate with the professional community(CPC) so that we can keep
with our primary purpose.We also provide pamphlets phone numbers and
PSV's This also is helpful with PI or piblic information where we
reach out to the still suffering alcoholic who may need help and
doesn't know where to go for help. Providing
information..pamphlets ..phone #'s, etc that reach's out and helps to
carry the message( our primary purpose).Some professionals work with
alcoholics who want help and we are helping them to help others by
providing the information that is very important. The long hours and
dedication of those in this service are endless .. yet rewarding.We
have seen so many new faces at meetings through the resources we
provide.The AA website provides the latest statistics for 2008.
Freely we receive freely we give.

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++++Message 5193. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Drinking Bay Rum?
From: Paul . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/23/2008 1:57:00 PM

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From the story IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN WORSE
(4th edit., page 354)

"It didn't say I had to finally live on skid
row and drink bay rum, canned heat, or lemon
extract. It did say I admitted I was powerless
over alcohol -- that my life had become
unmanageable."

Paul

- - - -

Original message: "rollemupjohnson"
<rollemupjohnson@...> wrote:
>
> Can anyone direct me to any AA literature
> discussing drinking "Bay Rum"?
>
> I'm sure I've heard it before, but can't
> find it.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> John K.

- - - -

From: "oldtimer672000" <twdtx@sbcglobal.net>
(twdtx at sbcglobal.net)

Bay Rum is an after shave lotion one puts on
after shaving, to smell pertty, it also gives
a cooling and refreshing effect to the face
and doesn't taste too bad either if I remember
right it has a slight tinge of lime as well.

- - - -

From: Baileygc23@aol.com
(Baileygc23 at aol.com)

I was aware of bay rum from years ago. Although
I never used it as a refreshment, I did not
know its reputation as the down and outers use
of it on occasion.

- - - -

From: James Flynn <jdf10487@yahoo.com>
(jdf10487 at yahoo.com)

Yuk. I use to know some winos who drank Aqua
Velva aftershave lotion, they called it green
lizard.

- - - -

From: "hartsell" <hartsell@etex.net>
(hartsell at etex.net)

Of course Bay Rum is shaving lotion, as is
Green Lizard but Bay Rum is primarily a Hair
Tonic still used in my barber shop! :-)
Of course I go to an Old Folks barber, not
a "Stylist" :-)

Aint it fun to be sober and able to enjoy
just funnin? and of course the discussion
IS Historically pertinent as the subject
is mentioned in our literature.

Sherry C.H.

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++++Message 5194. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Esther E
From: Mike Barns . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/24/2008 3:22:00 PM

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Esther is credited with starting AA in Dallas.
For more, see:

http://www.aadallas.org/dalhistory.htm

Mike B.

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++++Message 5195. . . . . . . . . . . . Beginnings of AA in New Orleans
From: grault . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/25/2008 12:05:00 PM

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Does anyone have information about the origins
of AA in New Orleans?

Thanks.

Gerry Rault

- - - -

From the moderator:

The first step on this kind of thing is usually
to do a search in our past messages, using
the little box at the top to look for a specific
word or phrase.

The following is what I found. But what else do
our historians know about the beginnings of
AA in New Orleans?

Glenn C. (South Bend)

- - - -

Message 4299

Significant May Dates in A.A. History

May 3, 1941 - The first AA group in New
Orleans, Louisiana, was formed (sometimes
dated as May 2, 1943)

- - - -

[NOTE: but the June 1946 Grapevine said
that the New Orleans group was started
on March 30, 1943, and the Aug 1947
Grapevine said that they had only about
15 members as of May 10, 1944.]

- - - -

Message 3864

Venetian blind salesman Irwin M who was from
Cleveland .... was a big man, over 250 lbs.
He went to Atlanta, and Jacksonville, New
Orleans etc. He had an unorthodox style of
12 stepping and started many AA groups.

Yours in Service
Shakey Mike Gwirtz

- - - -

Message 1385

Grapevine, Aug 1947

C. G. K. of the New Orleans Group writes in
to say that he went to his first meeting on
May 10, 1944, when the membership was about
15. Nobody could have told him then, he
writes, that three years later the group
would number approximately 150, with another
400 or so A.A.s active elsewhere throughout
the state.

- - - -

Message 1347

Grapevine, Feb 1947

Group Branches Out. -- Covington, La. Group
has started to include the towns of Hammond,
Bogalusa and surrounding rural areas since
its founding in November, 1945. After the
usual growing pains about a dozen are
continuously sober with two new members
celebrating their first year at a supper
recently. Bogalusa will have its own group
in the near future and Hammond is expected
to have a separate one soon. The three towns
may then hold an open meeting each month with
each town holding its own weekly meeting.
Much cooperation has been received from the
New Orleans Group.

- - - -

[NOTE: Covington and Hammond are about 25
miles (45 km) to the north of New Orleans, on
the other side of Lake Pontchartrain. Bogalusa
is about twice as far away, on the Mississippi
state line.

- - - -

Message 1333

Grapevine, Jan 47

Doctor, Psychiatrist Speak.--Signing the letter
"A-lways A-chieving," the A.A. Grapevine
correspondent from New Orleans reports Tuesday
night open meetings have heard a prominent
doctor of psychiatry, who agrees with the A.A.
program, and a national business executive
who recommends it. Visitors from many places
have visited the club room at 1113 Chartres
Street in the basement of General Beauregard's
former home and good Louisiana coffee is
promised to all who come that way.

- - - -

[NOTE: 1113 Chartres Street is in the old
French Quarter of New Orleans, one block
away from the Mississippi river, two blocks
down from Bourbon Street, and three blocks
over from St. Louis Cathedral]

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:FQ29Jan07ChartresPetitTheater1.jpg

http://www.pbase.com/septembermorn/image/58611317

http://www.art.com/asp/sp-asp/_/pd--10391683/Chartres_Street_New_Orleans_Lou
isia\

na.htm [20]

http://picasaweb.google.com/nwweinberg/TheQuarterHouseResortNewOrleansFrench
Quar\

ter/photo#5221590602611018002 [21]

http://www.foodhistory.com/foodnotes/road/la/no/napoleon/01/

http://www.pps.org/great_public_spaces/one?public_place_id=790&type_id=3

- - - -

Message 1311

Grapevine, Oct 46

A.A.s from New Orleans addressed the Hammond,
La., Group; attending were members from
chapters which derived from the original
New Orleans Group: Hammond, Covington, and
Houma, La.; Tylertown and Gulfport, Miss.
Quite a few veterans are coming into the
New Orleans chapter, direct from the Veterans
Hospital -- where the medical staff is 100%
for A.A.

- - - -

Message 1260

Grapevine, June 1946

The New Orleans, La., Group, started March 30,
1943, has grown to an active membership of
almost 200. They have been instrumental in
assisting to organize groups in Covington,
Abbeville, and Pollack, La.; and Tylertown,
Miss. The latest one started on the Mississippi
Gulf Coast includes members from Gulfport,
Biloxi, and other towns in the vicinity.
This group was suggested by the major in
charge of the Veterans Hospital at Gulfport,
who is interested in A.A. work. The same
applies to the Marine Hospital in New Orleans,
where the chief psychiatrist is a friend of
A.A. and has made some several talks before
the group.

- - - -

Message 1229

Grapevine, February 1946

Baton Rouge, La., A.A.s, at their first
anniversary meeting, were hosts to representa-
tive groups from New Orleans, Covington,
Bogalusa, Hammond, Franklinton, Gonzales,
Plaquemine, and Tylertown, Miss. One of the
guest speakers was the Rev. Henry A. Rickey
of Bogalusa, who attended the Yale School of
Alcohol Studies last summer; another was
Dr. Glenn J. Smith, superintendent of the
East Louisiana Hospital at Jackson, who spoke
of how much the people of the state were being
benefited by the work of A.A.

- - - -

Message 795

From Lois Remembers, various notes on Bill
and Lois W's travels .... 1943-4 trip
[pg 143-4] .... New Orleans, La

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++++Message 5196. . . . . . . . . . . . St. Johnsbury, Vermont -- Dr. Bob''s
childhood home
From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/28/2008 8:28:00 AM

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Friday I went to St. Johnsbury, Vermont, where
the childhood home of Dr. Bob is. His childhood
home is now a recovery drop-in center open to
the public

297 Summer Street, phone 802/751/8520,
email stjkrc@charterinternet.com
(stjkrc at charterinternet.com)

and even has daily AA meetings there. I was
able to visit young Bob's bedroom (above the
front porch), which is being renovated for
visitors to get a better sense of what it
might have looked like in the late 1800s.

Two blocks away is a small Core Library of
Dr. Bob archival materials (I was a little
disappointed because only about 5% of it is
actual Dr. Bob family stuff). It is housed
in the North Congregational Church library
at 1325 Main Street, St. Johnsbury, Vermont
05819 (telephone 802/748/2603).

Just Love,
Barefoot Bill

P.S. -- I also just got a good map of where
Ebby T.'s gravesite is near Albany, New York
(if you've ever been there before you'll
agree that it's hard to find). If anyone
wants a copy of this map please email your
request directly to me at

barefootbill@optonline.net
(barefootbill at optonline.net)

and I will email you back the pdf file.

Namaste.

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++++Message 5197. . . . . . . . . . . . Easy E. has just died (66 years of
sobriety)
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/30/2008 4:28:00 PM

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Forwarded by:
<Shakey1aa@aol.com> (Shakey1aa at aol.com)
"John Blair" <jblair@wmis.net> (jblair at wmis.net)
"Tom Hickcox" <cometkazie1@cox.net> (cometkazie1 at cox.net)

August 26, 2008

With sorrow at his passing but filled with
joy at having known this grand man, I
regretfully report to you that Muir “Easy”
Edney of Montgomery, Alabama, completed his
journey of 95 years peacefully this morning
and left for the Big Meeting.

For the past few years, Easy Edney was the
longest sober member of Alcoholics Anonymous.
Easy got sober Nov. 15, 1942, in Jacksonville
Florida, and then moved back to his home of
Montgomery where he helped start AA there. He
knew Bill Wilson.

Easy was in remarkably good shape to the end.
He still attended meetings and sponsored a
number of men until the last. I last saw
him in April at the Alabama/NW Florida Area
Assembly, which he faithfully attended over
the years.

Less well known is that Edney got his nickname
"Easy" from his hobby as a pool shark. Easy
was one of the 20th Century’s greatest pool
players, who successfully competed (sober!)
against such legends as Willie Mosconi and
Minnesota Fats.

One of the great rewards of AA has been the
opportunity to know men such as Easy. We
shall miss him.

Please feel free to forward this around, and
if more info is desired you may call me at
985/640/5552 or e-mail me at

jamestapes@aol.com (jamestapes at aol.com)

James Murrell 7/11/81

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++++Message 5198. . . . . . . . . . . . AA in New Orleans: Beauregard-Keyes
house
From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/30/2008 4:12:00 PM

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In Message 5195, Glenn C. cited the Grapevine
article which mentioned the AA clubroom in
the Beauregard-Keyes house in New Orleans.

>Grapevine, Jan 47
>
>Doctor, Psychiatrist Speak.--Signing the letter
>"A-lways A-chieving," the A.A. Grapevine
>correspondent from New Orleans reports Tuesday
>night open meetings have heard a prominent
>doctor of psychiatry, who agrees with the A.A.
>program, and a national business executive
>who recommends it. Visitors from many places
>have visited the club room at 1113 Chartres
>Street in the basement of General Beauregard's
>former home and good Louisiana coffee is
>promised to all who come that way.
>
>as quoted from AAHistoryLovers Message 1333

- - - -

To locate it a bit more precisely than Glenn
did, for the sake of visitors to New Orleans
the Beauregard-Keyes house is four blocks up
Chartres St. from St. Louis, across the street
from the Ursuline Convent. I like to stay in
the Hotel Provincial, across Ursuline St.
from the convent at 1024 Chartres.

The house is depicted here

<http://www.prairieghosts.com/beauhouse.html>

and here

<http://www.asergeev.com/pictures/archives/compress/2006/544/08.htm>

I do believe by "basement" they mean the street
level story. There are very few underground
basements in New Orleans.

Along the line of this thread, the first A.A.
meeting in Baton Rouge, about 70 miles as
the hurricane wanders NNW of New Orleans,
was held on December 10, 1944, at 720
Laurel Street. I'm not real sure when the
first group was organized.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

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++++Message 5199. . . . . . . . . . . . Kentucky''s Role in Early AA
From: Kevin Dew . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/30/2008 4:04:00 PM

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Hi Gang,

Don't know if I've ever posted before, but
had to send this.

Apparently, Kentucky has more influence on
the birth of AA than it just being the state
that makes the majority of the bourbon
whiskey consumed by qualifying members.

It was brought to my attention that Henrietta
Seiberling, is from and is buried in
Lawrenceburg, Kentucky, (home of Wild Turkey
and Four Roses whiskey). She introduced Bill
to Bob, as we all know.

Bill Dotson was a Kentuckian ... first AA
after Bill and Bob.

Doesn't count for much, just feeling
particularly proud to be a Kentuckian today.

Kevin, from KY

- - - -

From the moderator:

I have been told that AA in Louisville,
Kentucky, was founded by contact with the
AA group in Indianapolis, Indiana.

But I have never been able to verify this
from any archival sources, either in
Indiana or Kentucky.

The Indianapolis group had been started on
October 28, 1940 by Doherty Sheerin (with
help from James D. "J. D." Holmes, an
Akron newspaperman who was the tenth person
to get sober in AA). Dohr was the person
who sponsored Ralph Pfau (the Father John Doe
who wrote the Golden Books).

I think it would be great if all the states
in the union could put together historical
websites like the one which the Indiana AA
historians are the process of constructing:

http://hindsfoot.org/Nhome.html

I would particularly like to see a good
website established for Florida AA history,
to help in my project of writing about
Richmond Walker, the author of the 24 Hour
book.

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

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++++Message 5200. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Kentucky''s Role in Early AA
From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/30/2008 5:47:00 PM

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Location of Henrietta Seiberling's grave???

- - - -

At 15:04 8/30/2008, Kevin Dew wrote:

>It was brought to my attention that Henrietta
>Seiberling, is from and is buried in
>Lawrenceburg, Kentucky, (home of Wild Turkey
>and Four Roses whiskey). She introduced Bill
>to Bob, as we all know.

- - - -

Within the last year or so, someone was
searching for the exact location of
Seiberling's grave.

My daughter lives outside Lawrenceburg and
I have driven by the cemetery where she is
probably buried. I'd like to visit the
grave, but it's a large tract and I don't
know that I would be up to searching for
it w/o directions.

Has anyone come up with a good set of
directions for it?

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

- - - -

PHOTO OF GRAVESITE AT:

http://hindsfoot.org/photos1.html

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++++Message 5201. . . . . . . . . . . . Did Bill W. write an introduction to
another recovery book?
From: Byron Bateman . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/4/2008 4:18:00 AM

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Hi Group,

I have heard that Bill W. wrote a foreword or
introduction to/in another recovery book. This
supposedly came from a tape by Bob Earl???

I have searched the AAHL site but I didn't get
results with the wording I was using.

Does anyone have any information to share with
me as to whether this is fact, or fiction?

Best regards,

Byron B.

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++++Message 5202. . . . . . . . . . . . Is there something called the Bill
Wilson Yellow Papers?
From: austinjohnl . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/4/2008 8:21:00 AM

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I listened to a recovery talk on eating
disorders in recovery. In the talk the
speaker spoke about Bill Wilson in his later
life started looking for links between
addiction and connections to nutrition.
I know about the B-12 activities Bill
engaged in.

She referenced something she called the
"Bill Wilson Yellow Papers". She said these
were circulated by Bill but never published.

I did a few searches on Yellow Papers and
Bill Wilson but have gotten no hits. Has
anyone any knowledge of these papers? Maybe
the speaker was using the wrong name? Or
maybe these are folklore?

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++++Message 5203. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Is there something called the
Bill Wilson Yellow Papers?
From: khemex@comcast.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/5/2008 8:53:00 PM

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These papers do exist! I have a photo copy
of a set that Bill sent out to one of his most
trusted friends with this inscription and a
brief note stating that the Board of the
Alcoholic Foundation though he should cease
and desist because they felt that this would
drag AA into controvercial outside issues.

In these papers Bill talked about using mega
doses of B-12 (Nicotinic acid - Niacin) in
helping schizophrenics and those with
depressive disorders (of which Bill was one).
At the time both Bill and Lois where taking
this treatment and he seemed to think it
helped them and others

In the sprit of Love and Service to others!

Gerry Winkelman

- - - -

From the moderator: Niacin / nicotinic acid
is Vitamin B3, not Vitamin B12, according
to the internet reference sources I have
looked at.

- - - -

From: "rajiv.behappy" <rajiv.BeHappy@gmail.com>
(rajiv.BeHappy at gmail.com)

After 1965 Bill W wrote 3 papers for the
medical profession on Vit. B3 & nutrition, the
last one just before he died published
posthumously.

These might have been referred to as the
'yellow papers'. You can find it on pgs 388
to 391 in "Pass it On." Also extracts from
the papers can be fond in Joan Larson's
"Seven Weeks to Sobriety."

Much love,

Rajiv

- - - -

Original message from: "austinjohnl"
<austinjohnl@yahoo.com>
(austinjohnl at yahoo.com)

I listened to a recovery talk on eating
disorders in recovery. In the talk the
speaker spoke about Bill Wilson in his later
life started looking for links between
addiction and connections to nutrition.
I know about the B-12 activities Bill
engaged in.

She referenced something she called the
"Bill Wilson Yellow Papers". She said these
were circulated by Bill but never published.

I did a few searches on Yellow Papers and
Bill Wilson but have gotten no hits. Has
anyone any knowledge of these papers? Maybe
the speaker was using the wrong name? Or
maybe these are folklore?

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++++Message 5204. . . . . . . . . . . . Statement that Sister Ignatia / Lois
Wilson first met in 1935
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/7/2008 3:25:00 PM

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Fiona D. from Ireland pointed out to me an
interesting passage in William G. Borchert,
"The Lois Wilson Story: When Love Is Not
Enough," which gives Lois' account of the
way AA began. On p. 288 it says:
______________________________

"Lois once wrote that, outside of New York
and California, Al-Anon had expanded most
rapidly in those days in Akron and Cleveland,
Ohio, thanks to the seeds planted by Annie
Smith. But Lois had another lifelong comrade
too, who played a major role in carrying the
message of Al-Anon to wives and families.
Her name was Sister Mary Ignatia Gavin, a
member of the Sisters of Charity of St.
Augustine."

"LOIS HAD FIRST MET SISTER IGNATIA IN 1935
[my capitals] during her trip to Akron shortly
after Bill and Bob began their journey
together to create a Fellowship for drunks.
At the time, the diminutive Catholic nun with
a giant-sized heart was working with Dr. Bob
at St. Thomas Hospital and had been concerned
about his drinking problem for years. Once
she came to see the 'miraculous' work her
colleague and this 'mug from New York' were
doing with alcoholics, she immediately joined
their crusade."

Borchert goes on to give details of the way
that Sister Ignatia worked with the spouses
of alcoholics and encouraged the formation
of Al-Anon groups.
______________________________

One of the mysteries to me for many years has
been the problem of the statement made in
November 1940 by a Jesuit priest named Father
Ed Dowling, when he traveled to New York City
to visit Bill Wilson.

"I'm Father Ed Dowling from St. Louis," he said.
"A Jesuit friend and I have been struck by
the similarity of the AA twelve steps and
the Spiritual Exercises of St. Ignatius."
http://www.barefootsworld.net/aafreddowling.html

The problem is, how could Bill W. and the
other early AA's have known about Ignatian
spirituality or been influenced by it, prior
to the publication of the Big Book in 1939?
After 1939, numerous Roman Catholics began
joining AA, so seeing some Catholic influence
on AA spirituality after that date would
represent no problem.

St. Ignatius of Loyola, the Spanish Roman
Catholic who was the founder of the Jesuit
order, originally wrote the Spiritual Exercises
to provide a system of spiritual training for
Jesuit priests. But by the early twentieth
century, many other Roman Catholic orders (and
monasteries, convents, and seminaries) were
using an Ignatian spirituality based on the
Spiritual Exercises.

This was certainly true of Sister Ignatia's
religious order, and indeed, she was named
"Ignatia" after St. Ignatius when she joined
the Sisters of Charity. And after she began
setting up the alcoholic ward at St. Thomas
Hospital in 1939, she gave to each alcoholic
(when that person left the hospital) either a
booklet containing excerpts from the writings
of St. Ignatius of Loyola, or a classic book
of Catholic spirituality from a century or so
earlier, called The Imitation of Christ.

So at first glance, Sister Ignatia would seem
an obvious source of Ignatian spiritual ideas
in AA thought.

But the present accounts of Sister Ignatia's
linkage to AA seem to put the beginning of her
serious involvement in 1939, after the
publication of the Big Book. So how could
her understanding of spirituality influence
the ideas in the Big Book?

On the other hand, if what Borchert says (and
Lois remembered) is correct, then Sister
Ignatia was closely involved in some fashion
with the rise of the AA movement right from
the beginning in 1935, and becomes the obvious
candidate for most likely source of Ignatian
spiritual ideas in the spirituality of the
twelve steps.
______________________________

Fiona D. recommends Jim Harbaugh's book on
the Ignatian Exercises and the 12 steps to
those who would be interested in seeing how
Ignatian spirituality fits it with AA
principles.

She has also pointed out a couple of
interesting webpages, where The Upper Room
(another of the early formative influences
on AA spirituality) is now providing simple
instructions in carrying out some of Ignatius
of Loyola's Spiritual Exercises:

http://www.upperroom.org:80/methodx/thelife/prayermethods/examen.asp

http://www.upperroom.org:80/methodx/thelife/prayermethods/ignatian.asp

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

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++++Message 5205. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Is there something called the
Bill Wilson Yellow Papers?
From: Theron B. . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/9/2008 10:50:00 PM

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There is an original, printed copy of the
B-3 publication at the Akron A.A. Archives;
as I recall the cover is yellow. The moderator
is correct that B-3 is niacin, one form
of which is nicotinic acid, another is
nicotinamide. The pamphlet consists of several
medical papers on subjects related to the use
of niacin and its potential use in the
treatment of alcoholism. In addition to
treatment of schizophrenia with niacin,
there is information in the pamphlet about
a purported connection between alcoholism
and hypoglycemia (chronic low blood sugar).

The thesis of that paper is that the chemical
similarity of alcohol and sugar predisposes
hypoglycemics to alcoholism and that such
patients benefit from low carbohydrate, high
protein diets. Since this sort of diet often
is high in fatty foods, niacin is recommended
for control of cholesterol, for which it is
quite effective (from my personal experience).
I tried the low carb diet concept with niacin
and promptly lost 40 pounds and 50 points off
my cholesterol, so there is something to it.
This is not to be undertaken without consult-
ing your doctor, though, as there is some risk.

My recollection is that there were actually
two pamphlets on niacin therapy, although
it's been a few years since I read them and
I'm a bit vague on the details.

In Fellowship and Service,

Theron B.

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++++Message 5206. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Is there something called the
Bill Wilson Yellow Papers?
From: hartsell . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/10/2008 12:01:00 AM

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Hello, I am interested in this topic and would
gladly pay for a copy of the B-3 Publication
if anyone here could direct me to an appropriate
source. It is not possible for me to travel
to Akron at this time, so my interest must be
satisfied via the internet, mail, or telephone.

Suggestions will be appreciated.

Sherry C. Hartsell
Gilmer, TX
hartsell@etex.net
(hartsell at etex.net)

- - - -

Original message from: Theron B.
Subject: Re: Is there something called the
Bill Wilson Yellow Papers?

There is an original, printed copy of the
B-3 publication at the Akron A.A. Archives;
as I recall the cover is yellow. The moderator
is correct that B-3 is niacin, one form
of which is nicotinic acid, another is
nicotinamide. The pamphlet consists of several
medical papers on subjects related to the use
of niacin and its potential use in the
treatment of alcoholism. In addition to
treatment of schizophrenia with niacin,
there is information in the pamphlet about
a purported connection between alcoholism
and hypoglycemia (chronic low blood sugar).

The thesis of that paper is that the chemical
similarity of alcohol and sugar predisposes
hypoglycemics to alcoholism and that such
patients benefit from low carbohydrate, high
protein diets. Since this sort of diet often
is high in fatty foods, niacin is recommended
for control of cholesterol, for which it is
quite effective (from my personal experience).
I tried the low carb diet concept with niacin
and promptly lost 40 pounds and 50 points off
my cholesterol, so there is something to it.
This is not to be undertaken without consult-
ing your doctor, though, as there is some risk.

My recollection is that there were actually
two pamphlets on niacin therapy, although
it's been a few years since I read them and
I'm a bit vague on the details.

In Fellowship and Service,

Theron B.

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++++Message 5207. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Statement that Sister Ignatia /
Lois Wilson first met in 1935
From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/10/2008 8:46:00 AM

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--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,
Glenn Chesnut <glennccc@...> wrote:
>
<snip>
>
> "LOIS HAD FIRST MET SISTER IGNATIA IN 1935
> [my capitals] during her trip to Akron shortly
> after Bill and Bob began their journey
> together to create a Fellowship for drunks.
> At the time, the diminutive Catholic nun with
> a giant-sized heart was working with Dr. Bob
> at St. Thomas Hospital and had been concerned
> about his drinking problem for years.

<snip>

There is no reason to doubt that Sister
Ignatia knew Dr. Bob and was in a position to
have influenced early AA. But the following
hypothetical problem does not seem at all like
a problem to me:
>
> The problem is, how could Bill W. and the
> other early AA's have known about Ignatian
> spirituality or been influenced by it, prior
> to the publication of the Big Book in 1939?

. . . because, some Oxford Group people
were apparently fascinated with Ignatian
spirituality during the 1930s, Protestant
though they were.

Rose Macaulay spent months immersed in the
European Oxford Group in preparation for
writing her novel, "Going Abroad," which is
set in a resort area on the Basque coast of
Spain. Members of a group identifiable as the
OG are "working" among the vacationers, and
some of them carry vest-pocket editions of
the Spiritual Exercises with them at all
times. The crisis of the novel occurs during
a bus trip into the mountains to visit the
Shrine of Loyola.

I suppose it is possible Macaulay made the
Ignatian theme up out of whole cloth, but I
can't imagine why she would have devoted so
much effort to research unless she actually
was going to use what she found.

It is also possible that Bill and the American
OGers had no idea about what the European
branch was thinking, but there was substantial
trans-Atlantic communication so in all
probablity the American Groupers had some
interest in Ignatius as well.

Cora

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++++Message 5208. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Is there something called the
Bill Wilson Yellow Papers?
From: hartsell . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/10/2008 2:08:00 AM

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THIS IS THE PORTION OF THE ITEM WHICH CAUGHT
MY ATTENTION AND WOULD DEARLY LOVE TO HAVE
THE PAPER FROM WHICH IT WAS EXCERPTED:

"The thesis of that paper is that the chemical
similarity of alcohol and sugar predisposes
hypoglycemics to alcoholism and that such
patients benefit from low carbohydrate, high
protein diets. Since this sort of diet often
is high in fatty foods, niacin is recommended
for control of cholesterol, for which it is
quite effective (from my personal experience).
I tried the low carb diet concept with niacin
and promptly lost 40 pounds and 50 points off
my cholesterol, so there is something to it."

Suggestions will be appreciated.

Sherry C. Hartsell
Gilmer, TX
<hartsell@etex>
(hartsell at etex.net)

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++++Message 5209. . . . . . . . . . . . U.S. federal legislation early to
middle 1980''s
From: tigereaz . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/10/2008 11:39:00 PM

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In an effort to encourage treatment for drug
and alcohol abuse abatement the U.S. Government
allocated money for programs offering treatment
and research during the 1980's -- does anyone
know what the program or bill was called and
where I might access background info ...

TIA
Tigere

- - - -

From the moderator:

It would have been continuations and spinoffs
from the Hughes Act of 1970, enacted by
Senator Harold Hughes. Nancy Olson, the founder
of the AAHistoryLovers, was Senator Hughes'
aid in charge of alcoholism legislation.

Nancy described all of the legislation and
the founding of the current U.S. government
agencies dealing with alcoholism treatment
in the book she wrote in 2003. It is still
the work which is recommended reading for
all new staff at U.S. government agencies
and national granting foundations which deal
with alcoholism and drug addiction.

http://hindsfoot.org/kNO1.html
http://hindsfoot.org/kNO2.html
http://hindsfoot.org/kNO3.html
http://hindsfoot.org/nomem1.html
http://hindsfoot.org/NOmem2.html
http://hindsfoot.org/NOmem3.html
http://hindsfoot.org/NOmem4.html

Nancy Olson, With a Lot of Help from Our Friends:
The Politics of Alcoholism (2003).

"This book tells the inside story of government
attempts to deal with the American alcohol
problem from 1970 to 1980, the most important
decade in the history of alcohol legislation
since Prohibition, with the famous Hughes Act
as its centerpiece. We meet the friends and
supporters of Harold Hughes, the charismatic
senator and former governor from Iowa, and
Marty Mann, the beloved 'first lady of
Alcoholics Anonymous.'"

"The author, herself a major participant
in these events, describes the struggles
and triumphs of this small band of recovered
alcoholics and their friends as they bared
their souls before congressional hearings
and succeeded in convincing a Congress and
three reluctant Presidents to support this
effort."

- - - -

More from the moderator:

Senator Joseph R. Biden, Jr. from Delaware and
Representative Patrick J. Kennedy from Rhode
Island are currently proposing new bills
dealing with the U.S. federal government's
attempts to aid alcoholism treatment, see:

http://olpa.od.nih.gov/legislation/110/pendinglegislation/redesignation_inst
itut\

e.asp [22]

Legislative Updates

110th Congress
Public Laws | Pending Legislation

Redesignation of Institute Names

H.R. 1348/S. 1011
Background
In 1970, the “Hughes Act” established the
National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and
Alcoholism (NIAAA), which subsequently became
an Institute of the National Institutes of
Health (NIH) as a result of the Alcohol,
Drug Abuse, and Mental Health Administration
Reorganization Act of 1992. NIAAA conducts
and supports biomedical and behavioral research
with respect to the health, social, and
economic consequences of alcohol use. It also
funds research on the prevention of harmful
drinking patterns and the treatment of
alcoholism. NIAAA research includes a focus
on the beneficial effects of moderate alcohol
consumption for some people as well as the
negative effects of excessive alcohol use
and alcoholism. We now know that alcohol abuse
and alcohol dependence (i.e., alcoholism)
are not separate diagnostic categories, but
instead exist along a single continuum of
alcohol disorders associated with increased
frequency of a harmful drinking pattern.

Initially established in 1974, the National
Institute on Drug Abuse (NIDA) became an NIH
Institute in 1992. NIDA conducts and funds
cutting-edge research to improve our national
health and well-being by reducing the burden
of drug use and addiction on individuals and
society as a whole. In addition, NIDA
emphasizes addiction as a preventable and
treatable disease, working to remove the
stigma associated with addiction and
underscore that diseases of addiction are
critical national health issues.

Two bills have been introduced in the 110th
Congress that would recognize addiction as a
preventable and treatable neurobiological
disease and better identify the role and
mission of NIAAA and NIDA. The legislation
would change the name of NIAAA to the National
Institute on Alcohol Disorders and Health and
the name of NIDA to the National Institute
on Diseases of Addiction.

These changes would remove the pejorative term
“abuse” from the names of the Institutes and
link the concepts of addiction and disease in
order to diminish the social stigma,
discrimination, and personal shame that
are often barriers to seeking treatment.

Provisions of the Legislation/Impact on NIH
H.R. 1348 and S. 1011 would amend the Public
Health Service Act and related enactments to
redesignate NIAAA as the National Institute
on Alcohol Disorders and Health and NIDA as
the National Institute on Diseases of
Addiction. Despite the proposed name changes,
the mission of NIAAA and NIDA would remain
the same.

Status and Outlook
H.R. 1348, the NIDA and NIAAA Name Redesignation
Act, was introduced by Representative Patrick
J. Kennedy (D-RI) on March 6, 2007, and was
referred to the House Committee on Energy and
Commerce. No further action has occurred on
this legislation.

S. 1011, the Recognizing Addiction as a Disease
Act of 2007, was introduced by Senator Joseph R.
Biden, Jr. (D-DE) on March 28, 2007, and was
referred to the Senate Committee on Health,
Education, Labor and Pensions. No further
action has occurred on this legislation.

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++++Message 5210. . . . . . . . . . . . Akron Voices from the Past
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/11/2008 4:04:00 PM

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From: "Fiona Dodd" <fionadodd@eircom.net>
(fionadodd at eircom.net)

Akron A.A. Archives
Voices from the Past

http://www.akronaaarchives.org/

The Akron AA Archives has been blessed with
stewardship of a substantial, rare collection
of recorded speaker “leads” dating back to
the early days of our fellowship. Currently
there are over 400 of these talks representing
a treasure of early AA history, many in
their original form on cassettes or
reel-to-reel tape. These have been “passed on”
to us by members and treated with loving
care. However without appropriate preservation,
these links to the past were in danger of
being lost forever.

Modern technology has provided a solution.
What's more, we can now make these memories
come alive for all AA members!

We have the capacity to digitize these rare
recordings and to preserve them as high
quality “uncompressed WAV files”. Our goal
is to make these amazing and inspiring
recorvery resources available to the worldwide
fellowship of AA.

Our starting point on this project is to
provide the talks of early and influential
members who are featured in the 1980 “Dr. Bob
and the Good Oldtimers” (an Alcoholics
Anonymous World Services, Inc. publication).
You will be able to listen to them on-line
or download as .mp3 files, along with an
index showing where these speakers are
featured in the text. Transcripts will be
made available as time allows.

Archie T. “The Man Who Mastered Fear”
Sobriety Date: September 3, 1938

Archie came to Akron in September of 1938 and stayed for 10½ months with
Dr. Bob
and Anne Smith before returning to take A.A. back to Michigan. He appears in
“Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers” on pages 115-116, 182.

Norman Y.
Sobriety Date: January 28, 1939

Norman had lost his wife and family, his job and his sight to bootleg liquor
when Jack D. took the A.A. message to him in Youngstown. In 1940 he had the
Big
Book transcribed in braille and sent out to other blind A.A. members. He
appears
in “Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers” on pages 183-184, 221, 223, 249-250,
263.

Danny K.
Sobriety Date: During WWII

A minister's son from Barberton, Ohio and physically handicapped from
childhood,
Dan describes his journey on the “road to hell”. He came to St. Thomas
Hospital
under the care of Dr. Bob and Sister Ignatia during WWII. He appears in
“Dr. Bob
and the Good Oldtimers” on pages 192, 224-225, 233, 275, 281-282, 296.

Ann C.
Sobriety Date: April 1, 1948

The daughter of a lay minister, teetotaling Ann was living in Akron,
teaching
Sunday School and working as a waitress at the lunch counter of the 2nd
National
Bank Building. She watched the doctor with a perpetual hangover and wonder
why
he didn't “just quit drinking”. She saw him again years later at the
podium of
the King School group, not knowing he was “the” Dr. Bob, co-founder of
the
program that saved her life. She appears in “Dr. Bob and the Good
Oldtimers” on
pages 34, 245, 333, 342.

Bruce M.
Sobriety Date: October 1945

A graduate of both Duke and Yale law schools, by early 1945 Bruce found
himself
about to lose his wife, his children and his job. Two members of a Canton AA
group answered his desperate call for help in October of that year. His
achievements, awards, and citations over the next 40 “sober” years are
testament
to the power of unity, service, and recovery in AA. He was recently
remembered
as #129 in a November 21, 2005 Canton Repository story called “200 HELPED
SHAPE
CANTON.”
He appears in “Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers” on pages 276-277.

Ed B.
Sobriety Date: August 8, 1944

Ed's service to the Akron area spanned nearly three decades. He is perhaps
best
remembered as editor of the Akron Intergroup News.
He appears in “Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers” on pages 148, 150, 224,
228-230,
271, 274-275, 325-326.

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++++Message 5211. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Niacin
From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/10/2008 3:11:00 AM

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Thanks for the information. Before we use
niacin, we should be sure of the dangers.
I dug this stuff up but I think a medical
doctor should be consulted before taking any
large doses of niacin.

I don't want people in the AAHistoryLovers
to hurt themselves, or give credence to some
of these claims (such as helping in losing
weight).

George

This _medication_
(http://www.righthealth.com/Health/Medication/-od-definition_wiki_Medication
-s)
is sometimes prescribed for other uses; ask your doctor
or pharmacist for more information.
What SPECIAL PRECAUTIONS should I follow?

Before taking _niacin_
(http://www.righthealth.com/Health/Niacin/-od-definition_adam_1_0024091-s) ,
* tell your doctor and _pharmacist_
(http://www.righthealth.com/Health/Pharmacist/-od-definition_wiki_Pharmacist
-s)
if you are allergic to niacin,
aspirin, tartrazine (a yellow dye in some processed foods and drugs), or any
other drugs.
* tell your doctor and _pharmacist_
(http://www.righthealth.com/Health/Pharmacist/-od-definition_wiki_Pharmacist
-s)
what prescription and
nonprescription medications you are taking, especially anticoagulants (blood
thinners)
such as warfarin (Coumadin), medications for _high blood pressure_
(http://www.righthealth.com/Health/High_Blood_Pressure/-od-definition_adam_1
_000\

4681-s [23])
or diabetes and other vitamins. If you take insulin or oral diabetes
medication, your dose may need to be changed because _niacin_
(http://www.righthealth.com/Health/Niacin/-od-definition_adam_1_0024091-s)
may
increase the amount
of sugar in your blood and urine.
* tell your doctor if you drink _large_
(http://www.righthealth.com/Health/Large/-od-definition_wiki_Large-s)
amounts
of alcohol and if you have or
have ever had diabetes; gout; ulcers; allergies; _jaundice_
(http://www.righthealth.com/Health/Jaundice/-od-definition_wiki_Jaundice-s)
(yellowing of the
skin or eyes); or gallbladder, heart, or liver disease.
* tell your doctor if you are pregnant, plan to become pregnant, or
are breast-feeding. If you become pregnant while taking _niacin_
(http://www.righthealth.com/Health/Niacin/-od-definition_adam_1_0024091-s) ,
call your
doctor.
* if you are having _surgery_
(http://www.righthealth.com/Health/Surgery/-od-definition_wiki_Surgery-s) ,
including dental surgery, tell the doctor
or dentist that you are taking niacin.
* you should know that this _drug_
(http://www.righthealth.com/Health/Drug/-od-definition_wiki_Drug-s) may make
you drowsy. Do not drive a car or
operate machinery until you know how this _drug_
(http://www.righthealth.com/Health/Drug/-od-definition_wiki_Drug-s) affects
you.
* remember that alcohol can _add_
(http://www.righthealth.com/Health/Add/-od-definition_adam_1_0015511-s) to
the
drowsiness caused by this drug.
* you should know that _niacin_
(http://www.righthealth.com/Health/Niacin/-od-definition_adam_1_0024091-s)
causes flushing (redness) of the face and
neck. This side effect usually goes away after taking the _medicine_
(http://www.righthealth.com/Health/Medicine/-od-definition_wiki_Medicine-s)
for
a
few weeks. Avoid drinking alcohol or hot drinks around the time you take
_niacin_
(http://www.righthealth.com/Health/Niacin/-od-definition_adam_1_0024091-s)
. Taking aspirin or another nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory medication such
as
ibuprofen (Advil, Motrin) or naproxen (Aleve, Naprosyn) 30 minutes before
niacin may reduce the _flushing_
(http://www.righthealth.com/Health/Flushing/-od-definition_adam_1_0032411-s)
.
If you take extended-release niacin at
bedtime, the flushing will probably happen while you are asleep. If you wake
up
and
feel flushed, get up slowly, especially if you feel dizzy or faint.

What SPECIAL DIETARY instructions should I follow?

If you take niacin to reduce the amount of _cholesterol_
(http://www.righthealth.com/Health/Cholesterol/-od-definition_adam_1_0024721
-s)
and fats in your
blood, eat a low-cholesterol, low-fat diet. Follow the diet prescribed by
your doctor.
What should I do IF I FORGET to take a dose?

Take the missed dose as soon as you remember it. However, if it is almost
time for the next dose, skip the missed dose and continue your regular
_dosing_
(http://www.righthealth.com/Health/Dosing/-od-definition_wiki_Dosing-s)
schedule. Do not take a double dose to make up for a missed one.
What SIDE EFFECTS can this _medicine_
(http://www.righthealth.com/Health/Medicine/-od-definition_wiki_Medicine-s)
cause?

Niacin may cause side effects. Tell your doctor if any of these symptoms are
severe or do not go away:
* _itching_
(http://www.righthealth.com/Health/Itching/-od-definition_adam_1_0032171-s)
,
stinging, tingling, or burning of the skin
* headache
* _blurred vision_
(http://www.righthealth.com/Health/Blurred_Vision/-od-definition_adam_1_0030
291-\

s [24])
* upset stomach
* _vomiting_
(http://www.righthealth.com/Health/Vomiting/-od-definition_adam_1_0031171-s)
* diarrhea
* heartburn
* _bloating_
(http://www.righthealth.com/Health/Bloating/-od-definition_wiki_Bloating-s)
If you experience any of the following symptoms, call your doctor
immediately:
* _dizziness_
(http://www.righthealth.com/Health/Dizziness/-od-definition_adam_1_0030931-s)
* faintness
* fast heartbeat
* yellowing of the _skin_
(http://www.righthealth.com/Health/Skin/-od-definition_wiki_Skin-s) or eyes
If you experience a serious side effect, you or your doctor may send a
_report_
(http://www.righthealth.com/Health/Report/-od-definition_wiki_Report-s)
to the Food and Drug Administration's (FDA) MedWatch Adverse Event Reporting
program online [at _http://www.fda.gov/MedWatch/report.htm _
(http://www.fda.gov/MedWatch/report.htm) ] or by phone [1-800-332-1088].

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++++Message 5212. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Is there something called the
Bill Wilson Yellow Papers?
From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/10/2008 7:32:00 AM

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I believe that Charlie Bishop once reprinted
the Vitamin B papers in a limited edition and
some may still be out there. Maybe, if there
is enough interest in these, Charlie might be
prevailed upon to reprint them.

- - - -

From: DudleyDobinson@aol.com
(DudleyDobinson at aol.com)

Hi

Check out eBay item 350095605732 at http://www.ebay.com/

Dudley

- - - -

From: Sober186@aol.com (Sober186 at aol.com)

I would start by calling the Akron Intergroup:

Akron Intergroup Council and
Akron A.A. Archives
775 N Main

Akron, OHIO 44310
United States
Phone: 330 / 253 / 8181

Email: info@akronaa.org (info at akronaa.org)

http://www.akronaa.org

http://www.akronaa.org/Archives/archives.html

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++++Message 5213. . . . . . . . . . . . More on Sister Ignatia''s
birthplace: Griffith''s Land Valuation
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/15/2008 11:32:00 PM

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From: "Fiona Dodd"
<fionadodd@eircom.net> (fionadodd at eircom.net)

More on Sister Ignatia's birthplace in
Ireland: The Neary family's rental holdings
in Griffith's Land Valuation of 1855. When
Patrick Gavin and Barbara Neary (Ignatia's
father and mother) got married, the couple
set up housekeeping in a part of County Mayo
where numerous members of the Neary family
lived, renting land on the Earl of Lucan's
estate.

One of the records available for research in
Ireland is Griffith's Land Valuation of 1855.
The Primary Valuation was the first full-scale
valuation of property in Ireland. It was
overseen by Richard Griffith and published
between 1847 and 1864. It is one of the most
important surviving 19th century genealogical
sources. Griffith's Valuation is important
because there are very few Census or other
records available for 19th century Ireland.

One of the interesting things discovered while
searching through it is that there is no
record of Gavin or Neary settled in Ballyhean,
indeed there is no record of a place name
called Shanvilly/Shanvalley in Ballyhean.
What the record clearly shows is the
Neary/Narry family being settled in
Shanvoley/Shanvalley, Turlough, renting
land from the Lucan Estate.

For additional information see:

http://hindsfoot.org/ignatia2.html

- - - -

From Message 5114, for photos of Sister
Ignatia's birthplace and additional
information see:

http://hindsfoot.org/ignatia1.html

Sister Ignatia's birthplace in Ireland:
Photos of the just discovered ruins of the
two-roomed stone cottage where Sister
Ignatia Gavin, the Angel of Alcoholics
Anonymous, was born on 2 January 1889 at
Shanvalley, Burren, in County Mayo. Photos
and description (13 July 2008) by the Irish
AA historian Fiona D.

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++++Message 5214. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Is there something called the
Bill Wilson Yellow Papers?
From: Chris Budnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/15/2008 10:33:00 PM

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I have a copy. It is has a pink cover and
says "Bill Wilson & The Vitamin B-3 Therapy
1965 - 1971"

The back cover lists 6 items also available
for purchase from "The Bishop of Books"
(Charlie Bishop).

The copy I have is stamped #055
Limited Edition of 200 Copies
June 1993

The contents page lists:

p. 1 Introduction

p. 3 The Saskatchewan Researchers

p. 3 The Saskatchewan Findings

p. 4 Dr. Hoffers' Endorsement of
Niacin/Nicotinamide as Safe
Under All Conditions

p. 4 Two Tests for Recognizing
Schizophrenia

p. 8 Categories of Schizophrenia

p. 9 Case Histories

p. 16 Schizophrenics Anonymous

p. 18 Other Uses of Massive Vitamin B-3

p. 19 Vitamin B-3: Its Tonic Properties

p. 21 Appendix 1: Physical Treatment and
Psychiatric Approach

p. 27 Appendix II: Bibliography

p. 28 Appendix III: Wholesalers, Niacin
and Nicotinamide

Chris

- - - -

In response to the message from: Mitchell K.
Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008
Subject: Re: Is there something called the
Bill Wilson Yellow Papers?

I believe that Charlie Bishop once reprinted
the Vitamin B papers in a limited edition and
some may still be out there. Maybe, if there
is enough interest in these, Charlie might be
prevailed upon to reprint them.

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++++Message 5215. . . . . . . . . . . . Remote Communities Committee
From: jeff e. . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/15/2008 2:03:00 PM

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Hi all. I recently went from holding the
position of Remote Communities chair at
district level to being drafted to hold the
position at the area level.

I was wondering if anybody had some history
on the formation of these committees within
the service structure and maybe in some more
detail how they came to include not just
remote locations but also came to deal with
the barriers of language and culture that
may stand in the way of a potential AA hearing
the message.

I have some information from the general
service conference a few years back, but
thought I'd see what else was available.
I may be in a position where I have to
present this service commitment to other
districts in my area and thought it would
be helpful to have a better sense of the
history.

Thanks, Jeff

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++++Message 5216. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Niacin
From: Sally Brown . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/14/2008 1:07:00 AM

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I don't know what the equivalent dosage of
the niacin injections taken by early AAs was
to today's niacin pills. I learned the hard
way that more than 500 mg per day of our
modern pills could be dangerous and possibly
lethal.

What happened was this. Based on the advice
and experience of many oldtimers here in
California, niacin was being touted as an
excellent supplement for recovery. We newer
folks were advised to start slowly with 100 mg
a day, and every 5-7 days add another
100 mg until we were taking about 900 mg/day.
We were told to expect a temporary "red flush"
of the skin for 10-30 minutes as the dosage
increased. Never discussed it with my doctor
because I thought oldtimers knew everything.
Besides, niacin was a kind of vitamin, and
weren't vitamins supposed to be good for you?

Soon after reaching the 800-900 mg limit, I
found myself retching uncontrollably every
morning. Bummer. THEN I checked with my
doctor, who immediately ordered a liver panel.
Bad news. I was in imminent danger of slipping
into liver failure. I stopped the niacin
instantly and have never gone back to it.
I also stopped vomiting the next day, and
my liver immediately thanked me and returned
to normal.

You know the lessons I learned!

Shalom -- Sally

Rev Sally Brown
Board Certified Chaplain
United Church of Christ

Coauthor with David R Brown:
A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann:
The First Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous
http://www.sallyanddavidbrown.com

1470 Sand Hill Rd, 309
Palo Alto, California 94304
Phone/Fax: 650 325 5258
Email: rev.sally@att.net
(rev.sally at att.net)

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++++Message 5217. . . . . . . . . . . . Fred G., "New Vision for a
Sculptor," 2nd ed. Big Book
From: mdingle76 . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/16/2008 7:26:00 PM

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2nd edition Big Book story, "New Vision for a
Sculptor," is about Fred Ginsberg. Fred was
dry (without the aid of AA) 10 years when he
met an old friend who was in AA and invited
him to his first meeting.

The friend in the story was Devoe Bingham
(whose wife was Ann Bingham — Al-Anon's
co-founder with Lois Wilson). Devoe owned
the Chrysler dealership in Chappaqua (I think
on King St.) which is probably where the
following story took place:

A week or ten days before Decoration Day, I was
having gasoline put into my car and a very dear
friend who had gone to school with me and who
had a severe alcoholic problem of his own -- he
was an A.A., whatever that was -- came up to me
and . . . said, "Hello, Fred, how's your
alcoholic problem?" I laughed. I said, "I
haven't any alcoholic problem. In fact, on
Decoration Day my wife and I are going to try
a bottle of champagne." He got as white as a
sheet, and put his hand on my arm and said,
"Look, before you take that first drink will
you please come to an A.A. meeting? There's
one in town tonight and I'll call for you."
I just had to say "Yes." And that was the
evening that I was taken into A.A. That man
had been wanting to talk to me for ten years
about my drinking and never had the courage
to mention it. That was about May 20, 1947.
(Taken from: New Vision for a Sculptor.)

- - - -

Message 5080

In message 5021, Jared Lobdell
<jlobdell54@hotmail.com> (jlobdell54 at hotmail.com)
commented:

"I'd be interested to know which was the
story Tom included [in the second edition of
the Big Book] that some AAs didn't like (or
whose author they didn't like)."

- - - -

Matt D. <mdingle76@yahoo.com>
(mdingle76 at yahoo.com) responds:

2nd edition story: "New Vision for a Sculptor."
The author's name was Fred (I think) Ginsberg.

Matt D

- - - -

For more about that story, see:

http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/Authors.htm
(http://silkworth.net/aabiography/storyauthors.html)

"New Vision for a Sculptor"
Fred (last name unknown)
New York City
p. 426 in 2nd edition

- - - -

Message 5081 from Mike Saulle
<saulle18509@yahoo.com>
(saulle18509 at yahoo.com)

The 2nd edition Big Book story "New Vision
for a Sculptor" can be found in "Experience,
Strength and Hope," the AAWS collection of
all the earlier Big Book stories which are
no longer in the present edition of the Big
Book: see pages 166-178.

- - - -

Message 5083 from Matt D.
<mdingle76@yahoo.com> (mdingle76 at yahoo.com)

"New Vision for a Sculptor" was controversial
because Fred Ginsberg didn't get officially
sober in AA -- he was ten years dry when he
hit his first AA meeting.

Matt D.

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++++Message 5218. . . . . . . . . . . . The Collected Ernie Kurtz
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/17/2008 5:24:00 PM

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New publication:

Ernest Kurtz, The Collected Ernie Kurtz,
June 2008, ISBN 978-0-595-52099-2, xiv + 232 pp.

http://hindsfoot.org/ktcek1.html

(An exact reprint of the first edition of
The Collected Ernie Kurtz, which was published
in 1999 by The Bishop of Books, Charles Bishop,
Jr., 46 Eureka Ave., Wheeling, WV 26003, in
a limited edition of 1,000 copies.)

Kurtz's articles in this volume include:

"Bill W. Takes LSD"

"The Spirituality of William James"

"Spiritual Rather Than Religious"

"Why A.A. Works: The Intellectual Significance
of Alcoholics Anonymous"

"Is Spuds McKenzie Just Another 'Booze Hound?'"

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++++Message 5219. . . . . . . . . . . . 2008 National AA Archives Workshop?
From: rick tompkins . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/17/2008 7:20:00 PM

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Did any members of this egroup participate in
Buffalo, New York, last long weekend?

Hope it was a successful event, please share!

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++++Message 5220. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Editors of Second Edition: Tom
P.
From: mdingle76 . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/19/2008 9:06:00 AM

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Thomas E. Powers interview

Found this transcript in the East Ridge
archives. The interview is with Catherine N.
who was sent out by headquarters to interview
AA oldtimers for a book that actually never
got published. The interview took place in
the early 90s and "TEP" is Thomas E. Powers.
I thought it might be of interest to the group
and shed a little light on the selection and
capturing process of the 2nd edition stories:

Tom Jr.- Bill himself at one point said, in
a meeting, that you wrote half of 12&12. Don R.
told me that.

Interviewer- I had picked this up too, this
is what I am slowly getting to.

Tom Jr.- And you did a lot of the work on
12&12 and you did a lot of work on AA Comes
of Age.

TEP- And on the revision of the Big Book I
did all the writing. On the revised stories.
The actual revision of the Big Book didn't
amount to a damn as far as the text was
concerned. Almost nothing.

Interviewer- So you did all the editing of
the stories?

TEP- No, I did the writing.

Tom Jr.- They came in on tapes.

TEP- They came in on tapes, and I took the
tape and wrote the story.

Interviewer- Would those tapes still exist?

TEP- Well they might, I don't know how good
the archives are at GS.

Interviewer- Boy, that would be very
interesting to hear how they came in . . .
and to hear . . . because you actually did
the work.

Tom Jr.- Yes.

TEP- Yeah, I did all of it for the new stories
and the revision of the old stories. But
that's just hack work, for Christ's sake.
There's nothing to that. Well that's an art
because you got to know how to transcribe and
respect the authenticity of the material, and
also you got to respect the style of the
person. So it's not hack work either.

Interviewer- I don't find it. . . . I mean
this would be the last thing that I would call
hack work. I know what you're saying.

TEP- Well I made a mistake.

(Much later in interview)

Interviewer- O.K. Tom, let's go back to the
writing. There are two other books that you
worked on. The 2nd edition of the BB. Now the
story is, the official version is that Bill
went around and taped those new stories.

TEP- Bill didn't go around, he had his
secretary . . . . he had them taped. When
he'd decided that Joe Blow had a story, then
you would send a person out with a tape to
Joe Blow's meeting, even when Joe Blow didn't
know it, and tape it, without setting it up.
That's how you got. . . .

Interviewer- How you got the good stuff.

TEP- Yeah, if you told them to have Joe Blow
talk, that would ruin it. He'd go out until
Joe was telling it, say Joe is going to be
speaking so maybe. . . . then we would have
somebody in there. . . and get the story and
come back and you had. . . It was always swell.

(Now there's a lot of talk about how they
recorded the talks this way to avoid fiction-
alizing.)

TEP- Well that's what we were into, and that
was the reasons the stories in that second
edition are superb. I don't know whether you
know it or not.

Interviewer- So they just have these notions
of who they might want to include.

TEP- Oh, you discussed and said, you've got to
get Joe Mina's story.

(The ? comes up what is the decision process
for stories — the selection process?)

TEP- Wilson and I decided.

Interviewer- Oh that's what I wanted to know.

(More talk)

Interviewer- So you and Wilson decided. So
we're going to use this guy, and let's get
this guy and this guy. So you sent somebody
out there, and they. . . when they were
speaking, and they taped the stories. And
that's the way you got it.

TEP- That's the way you got it. You never got
the guy to sit down to tell his story. Or you
never got him when he knew he was being taped
for posterity. And you tried not to get him
in a convention. . . . you're on stage!

(More talk)

Interviewer- So that was that was my big
question about the 2nd edition, and did you,
in order to get the number of stories that
you actually . . . and I don't know how many
stories are in there. How many did you weed
out?

TEP- Well, I suppose, while this went on,
selecting materials, you would have a hundred
names, right? Somebody liked my name, early
on we'd say, that guy would be damned good.
And that guy . . . there was nothing
preventative. It wasn't easy to go out and
get it. It was expensive so you just didn't
go out and capture everybody.

- - - -

Message 5021
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/5021

> Message #5003 from Jared Lobdell
> jlobdell54@hotmail.com (jlobdell54 at hotmail.com)
> noted that
>
> "the chief editor for the second edition was
> Edward Hale B."
>
> It went on to say that other editors included
> "Tom (whether P. – of the 12&12 - or Y. - of
> the Grapevine - I don't know)."
> ______________________________
>
> In a further message (18 May 2008) to
> mdingle76@... (mdingle76 at yahoo.com)
>
> Jared Lobdell added the following remark:
>
> "Thanks very much. My guess had been it was
> Tom P (rather than Tom Y) but I wasn't sure.

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++++Message 5221. . . . . . . . . . . . Manic-Depressive Alcoholics
From: David LeBlanc . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/17/2008 5:32:00 PM

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On page xxviii in the Big
Book it says "There is
the manic-depressive
type, who is, perhaps,
the least understood by
his friends, and about
whom a whole chapter
could be written." I
wonder if any more on
this subject was written
in early AA history. Can
anyone help?
David

- - - -

From the moderator: just a brief suggestion,
please, about how to get at answering this
question. We really need to stick to
theories about manic depression from the
1930's, when the Big Book was written.

There has been a whole of work by psychiatrists
on treating manic-depressives (bipolars they
are called today) which is interesting, but
not relevant to the AAHistoryLovers.

So again, the question here is, what did
that sentence in the Big Book mean to people
in 1939?

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

P.S. For a modern account of how alcoholics
who are also bipolar deal with their problems,
the most useful thing I have ever read is
written by an AA oldtimer, Jane S., who is
herself bipolar, in a book called "Q & A:
Alcoholism and Sobriety"

http://hindsfoot.org/kqa1.html

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++++Message 5222. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Editors of Second Edition: Tom
P.
From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/19/2008 5:41:00 PM

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Thomas E. Powers interview in Message 5220
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/5220

"TEP" (Thomas E. Powers) and "Tom Jr."

I might suggest that it's not clear that
there are two Tom Powers, senior and junior.
I have corresponded with the latter. He runs
the East Ridge Recovery Center, which is in
a remote part of New York State overlooking
the Delaware River, and is connected with a
group called All Addicts Anonymous:

http://alladdictsanonymous.org/

Several years ago Tom Sr's copy of the 12x12,
one of the first five printed and inscribed
by Wilson, sold on eBay for a lot of money.

Tommy

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++++Message 5223. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Niacin
From: James Flynn . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/17/2008 7:19:00 PM

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Yes Bill also used LSD for its "therapuetic
value" but I don't see any oldtimers promoting
the use of LSD. (And if I ever do meet any
I will run like hell in the other direction.)
Bill W. was a remarkable guy with some screwy
ideas from time to time.

Jim F.

- - - -

From: "ROB M" <hjfree@fuse.net>
(hjfree at fuse.net)

I sat next to an anesthesiologist at an AA
meeting, who after listening to the
"old timers" define what and how medicine
played a role in recovery, leaned over to
me and said,

"You know there's a special term for that
kind of instruction ....

24 to 36 months and a fine not to exeed
$25,000 for practicing medicine without
a license."

Blessed2bSober

Rob

--- On Sat, 9/13/08, Sally Brown <rev.sally@att.net> wrote:

From: Sally Brown <rev.sally@att.net>
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Niacin
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, September 13, 2008, 10:07 PM

I don't know what the equivalent dosage of
the niacin injections taken by early AAs was
to today's niacin pills. I learned the hard
way that more than 500 mg per day of our
modern pills could be dangerous and possibly
lethal.

What happened was this. Based on the advice
and experience of many oldtimers here in
California, niacin was being touted as an
excellent supplement for recovery. We newer
folks were advised to start slowly with 100 mg
a day, and every 5-7 days add another
100 mg until we were taking about 900 mg/day.
We were told to expect a temporary "red flush"
of the skin for 10-30 minutes as the dosage
increased. Never discussed it with my doctor
because I thought oldtimers knew everything.
Besides, niacin was a kind of vitamin, and
weren't vitamins supposed to be good for you?

Soon after reaching the 800-900 mg limit, I
found myself retching uncontrollably every
morning. Bummer. THEN I checked with my
doctor, who immediately ordered a liver panel.
Bad news. I was in imminent danger of slipping
into liver failure. I stopped the niacin
instantly and have never gone back to it.
I also stopped vomiting the next day, and
my liver immediately thanked me and returned
to normal.

You know the lessons I learned!

Shalom -- Sally

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++++Message 5224. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Is there something called the
Bill Wilson Yellow Papers?
From: khemex@comcast.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/18/2008 7:54:00 PM

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The copy that is being reprinted and passed
around must be missing the front cover which
is titled

- - - -

"A COMMUNICATION TO A.A'S PHYSICIANS
From Bill W.

December, 1965

THE VITAMIN B-3 THERAPY:

A Promising Treatment for Schizophrenia -- and
its high relevance to the field of alcoholism.

P.S. Please note that the enclosed material
is not for public quotation or use. ---B.W."

- - - -

Because my copy does have that front cover,
I'm inclined to oblige by Bill W.'s wishes
and not circulate this material.

Gerry Winkelman

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++++Message 5225. . . . . . . . . . . . Lee T. foreword to A New Pair of
Glasses
From: bigbookken . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/21/2008 12:06:00 PM

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Hello everyone, and thanks for being here!

I am trying to learn who "Lee T." was who
wrote the Foreword to A New Pair of Glasses,
and his whereabouts.

I searched this group's archives and found
Message #4926

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/4926

but couldn't follow it any
farther.

Any help is appreciated.

Thanks,

Ken

- - - -

From the moderator: Lee T. seems to have
been the person who took the tape recordings
of the talks which Chuck Chamberlain gave
at the 1975 Pala Mesa Retreat, and transcribed
them and put them into book form, at least
from what is written in this web group:

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/FOBWi/message/19254

A New Pair Of Glasses, Foreword by Lee T.,
August 1983, Part 5, page xiii

With the help of Chuck C. and his wife, Elsa,
we have put these tapes into writing so that
the countless number of people that Chuck has
touched and will touch in the future may have
a volume to pick up and gain comfort from.
Here then, as told to sixty-four men at
Pala Mesa are the thoughts of Chuck C.
Thoughts which will help you see the world
through a new pair of glasses.

- - - -

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/FOBWi/message/19190

The preface to A New Pair of Glasses was
written by "Clancy I. Los Angeles 1983"

So why don't you or someone else in our
group just ask Clancy what he knows?

- - - -

Chuck Chamberlain was a very well known early
AA member in California. Nancy Olson brought
him to Washington, D.C., to testify before
the U.S. Senate Committee which was drawing up
the Hughes Act:

http://westbalto.a-1associates.com/TESTIMONY/chuckchamberlain.htm

If Nancy were still with us, she would probably
have known who Lee T. was.

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++++Message 5226. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Niacin
From: Tom White . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/20/2008 3:26:00 PM

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Bill and "Medicine":

Of all AAs, Bill W. was perhaps the least
liable to take someone else's word for
something. He was an inveterate experimenter,
a true child of the now long-gone age of the
"worship of science," if I may call it that.
And when he and TEP and others went to Calif-
ornia to take LSD it was as an experiment.
I doubt any of them would have recommended it
to any other AA. It was a group of (then)
like-minded close friends. And keep in mind
that at that time, pre-Tim Leary, there was
not yet any big public hurrah and virtually
nothing yet known about LSD that could be
called science. None of them ever boomed it
later, except maybe A. Huxley, who was
involved. I know because I was fairly close
to some of the "actors" in that LSD experiment.
I suppose, too, Sally Brown, could be got for
"practicing medicine." I think there perhaps
ought to be a fine for practicing soul-cure
without a license, but then that could get
complicated. Hohoho. Tom White

- - - -

From: jenny andrews <jennylaurie1@hotmail.com>
(jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com)

From Pass It On (p369ff):

English psychiatrists Humphry Osmond and Abram
Hoffer had used LSD and mescaline to treat
schizophrenics and thought it could also help
alcoholics. "I (Osmond) told Bill about it
and he was extremely unthrilled. He was very
much against giving alcoholics drugs..."

Later, however, Bill became interested when
he heard the two doctors were getting results...

"So I (Bill) consider LSD to be of some value
to some people, and practically no damage to
anyone. It will never take the place of the
existing means by which we can reduce the ego,
and keep it reduced."

Nell Wing recalls LSD being used to treat
alcoholics "... and they had about 15 per cent
recoveries. This was all a scientific thing....
he (Bill) gave his full enthusiasm to what
other people were doing along that line (sic!).
That's why he took it himself. He had an
experience that was totally spiritual, like
his initial spiritual experience."

... Bill even persuaded Lois to take LSD ....
Most AA's were violently opposed to his
experimenting with a mind-altering substance.
LSD was then totally unfamiliar, poorly
researched, and entirely experimental - and
Bill was taking it....

"I (Bill) have taken lysergic acid several
times, and have collected considerable
information about it ... there is the
probability that prayer, fasting, meditation,
despair, and other conditions that predispose
one to classic mystical experiences do have
their medical components... It would certainly
be a huge misfortune if it (LSD) ever got
loose in the general public without careful
preparation....I do believe I am perfectly
aware of the dangers to AA. I know that I
must not compromise its future and would
gladly withdraw from these activities if ever
this became apparent."

By 1959 Bill had withdrawn from the LSD
experiments. He did so gracefully....

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++++Message 5227. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Niacin and LSD
From: Jim S. . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/21/2008 1:36:00 PM

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So true. We don't hear anyone advocating the
sauerkraut and tomato treatment, either.

Jim S.

- - - -

AND FROM THE OTHER SIDE:

From: "CloydG" <cloydg449@sbcglobal.net>
(cloydg449 at sbcglobal.net)

The LSD therapy was not a street drug
experience. According to the reports I have
read in years past, the doses were very
limited, there were no hallucinations and
it was an experimental technique that was
thought to be a solution for clinical
depression. So in all fairness to those who
volunteered, I think some of this background
should be shared.

- - - -

RESPONDING TO THE MESSAGE FROM

James Flynn <jdf10487@...> who wrote:
>
> Yes Bill also used LSD for its "therapuetic
> value" but I don't see any oldtimers promoting
> the use of LSD. (And if I ever do meet any
> I will run like hell in the other direction.)
> Bill W. was a remarkable guy with some screwy
> ideas from time to time.
>
> Jim F.
>

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++++Message 5228. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Niacin and LSD
From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/21/2008 3:13:00 PM

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British radio commentator Gerald Heard
introduced Bill W to Aldous Huxley and
British psychiatrists Humphrey Osmond and
Abram Hoffer. Humphrey and Osmond were
working with schizophrenic and alcoholic
patients at a Canadian hospital.

Bill joined with Heard and Huxley and first
took LSD in California on August 29, 1956. At
the time, LSD was thought to have psycho-
therapeutic potential (research was also being
funded by the National Institutes of Health
and National Academy of Sciences). The intent
of Osmond and Hoffer was to induce an
experience similar to the DTs in hopes that
it might shock alcoholics away from alcohol.

Among those invited to experiment with LSD
(and who accepted) were Nell Wing, Father
Ed Dowling, Sam Shoemaker and Lois Wilson.
Marty M and other AA members participated in
New York (under medical supervision by a
psychiatrist from Roosevelt Hospital).

Bill had several experiments with LSD up to
1959 (perhaps into the early 1960's). The
book “Pass It On” (on pgs 368 to 377) reports
the full LSD story and notes that there were
repercussions within AA over these activities.
Lois was a reluctant participant and claimed
to have had no response to the chemical.

Hoffer and Osmond did research that later
influenced Bill, in December 1966, to
enthusiastically embrace a campaign to
promote vitamin B3 (niacin) therapy. It
also created Traditions issues within the
Fellowship and caused a bit of an uproar.

Cheers
Arthur

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++++Message 5229. . . . . . . . . . . . A book by Reese
From: Fiona Dodd . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/22/2008 4:36:00 PM

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I have been reading some correspondence from
Sackville of Dublin to Sr Ignatia and in two
of his letters he mentions a book published
by Vantage Press by an author called Reece.
Said Vantage Press were trying to get a
European edition published and publisher and
author offered Sackville half the royalty
profits which he states "sounded too much
like sharp business".

Has anyone any idea what the book was or
who the author was?

Fiona

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++++Message 5230. . . . . . . . . . . . Sackville said Sr Ignatia came from
the Ballina area
From: Fiona Dodd . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/22/2008 5:17:00 PM

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I have recently received copies of corres-
pondence between Sackville of Dublin and
Sr Ignatia in Cleveland. In one written in
November 1959 he mentions the spread of AA
from Dublin to the west of Ireland.

"Meantime, you may be glad to know that AA is
catching fire slowly in the west of Ireland.
We have established three new groups there
this year and re-formed one. There is not yet,
sad to relate, one in your native Ballina,
but there are a couple of members there who
attend a neighbouring group and who will in
God's own time start their own. Ballina, of
course, is highly qualified to support a group
of its own."

Indeed Sackville - we now have five groups
and ten meetings a week in town!

If as previously stated Ignatia had been
reared in Shanvilly, Ballyhean then
Castlebar would have been her "native"
town. Ballina's hinterland encompasses the
Laherdane area where Shanvalley, Burren lies.

Ballina in the 1890's, with a population of
5000 was a thriving market town with a port
which remained active up until the 1980's.
It had flour and saw mills and a rail link to
the rest of the country.

Fiona

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++++Message 5231. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Early four step AA program ???
From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/23/2008 12:20:00 PM

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From What is the Oxford Group:

To be spiritually reborn, and to live in the
state in which these four points are the
guides to our life in God, the Oxford Group
advocate four practical spiritual activities:

1. The Sharing of our sins and temptations
with another Christian life given to God,
and to use Sharing as Witness to help others,
still unchanged, to recognize and acknowledge
their sins.

2. Surrender of our life, past, present,
and future, into God's keeping and direction.

3. Restitution to all whom we have wronged
directly or indirectly.

4. Listening to, accepting, relying on God's
Guidance and carrying it out in everything
we do or say, great or small.

These spiritual activities have proved
indispensable to countless numbers who are
living Changed lives. They are not new ideas
nor inventions of the Oxford Group. They
are the simple tenets of simple Christianity.

John B

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "rajiv.behappy"
<rajiv.BeHappy@...> wrote:
>
> After reading Hank Parkhurst's proposed outline
> for the Big book, it seems clear to me that the
> original program had four steps in 1938 and not
> the 6 Steps that Bill W wrote about as the
> original AA's word-of-mouth steps in the July
> 1953 Grapevine article (and in AA Comes of Age).
>
> Do any of you know what the original four steps
> were?
>
> Much Love
>
> Rajiv Bhole
>
> - - - -
>
> Message #2567: HANK P.'s FOUR STEP RENDITION
> From: <mertonmm3@...>
> (mertonmm3 at yahoo.com)
>
> "In my mind religious experience - religion -
> etc. should not be brought in. We are actually
> irreligious - but we are trying to be helpful
> - we have learned to be quiet - to be more
> truthful - to be more honest - to try to be
> more unselfish - to make other fellows troubles
> - our troubles - and by following four steps
> most of us have a religious experience. The
> fellowship - the unselfishness appeals to us."
>
> - - - -
>
> From the moderator, Glenn C.:
>
> Rajiv, you needed to keep on reading in that
> document,where Hank went on to say further
> along:
>
> "I am fearfully afraid that we are emphasizing
> religious experience when actually that is
> something that follows as a result of 1 - 2 -
> 3 - 4.
>
> "In my mind the question is not particularly
> the strength of the experience as much as the
> improvement over what we were. I would ask a
> man to compare himself as follows after say
> a month –
>
> "#1 - As compared to 2 months ago do you have
> more of a feeling that there is a power greater
> than you [?]
>
> "#2 - Have you cleaned out more completely
> with a human being than ever before?
>
> "#3 - Have you less bad things behind you
> than ever before [?]
>
> "#4 - Have you been more honest with youself
> and your fellow man - Have you been more
> honest with yourself and your fellow man -
> Have you been more thoughtful of people with
> whom you are associated - Has your life been
> cleaner both by thought & action - Have you
> looked at others less critically and yourself
> more critically this last 30 days. You will
> never be perfect but the question is have you
> been more perfect?"
>
> - - - -
>
> These were not "four steps" that you took, in
> the same sense as the twelve steps of the
> twelve step program in the Big Book.
>
> - - - -
>
> There is also a mention of "four steps" in
> Message #2788 from <tcumming@...>
> (tcumming at nc.rr.com), where it says:
>
> From the end of a 1st edition of the Big Book
> story titled THE CAR SMASHER, page 369:
>
> "There are, it seems to me, four steps to be
> taken by one who is a victim of alcoholism.
> First: Have a real desire to quit.
> Second: Admit you can't. (This is hardest.)
> Third: Ask for His ever present help.
> Fourth: Accept and acknowledge this help."
>
> [That mans story is also on pg 193 of 2nd &
> 3rd ed, but it was rewritten and renamed to
> He Had to Be Shown, and does not have the 4
> Steps.]
>
> - - - -
>
> That was intended for people at the very
> beginning, when they first came into
> Alcoholics Anonymous. There were other
> things that people had to do after that
> (confession, restitution, regular prayer
> and quiet time, and so on) which were
> recognized as necessities in AA from the
> beginning (and went back to Oxford Group
> practice).
>
> So it seems to me that it would be very
> misleading to say that "the original program
> had four steps in 1938."
>
> Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana, U.S.)
>

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++++Message 5232. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Some Notes on the AA Original
Manuscript Up for Auction
From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/22/2008 5:59:00 PM

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Dr. Bevoise is Herb Debevoise (Herb D) from
South Orange, New Jersey.

John B

- - - -

Bill Schaberg had written:

I noticed that the name of Doctor Howard was
just about everywhere in the manuscript. He
sure had a LOT to say about edits to our book.
In addition, two other doctors I have never
before heard referenced as contributors of
Big Book suggestions list (Dr. Witherspoon
& Dr. Bevoise [sp?]) are also found here.

- - - -

In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,
"Doug B." <dougb@...> wrote:
>
> Bill,
>
> Thanks for your observations...my spine was tingling!
>
> I found the following Dr's that might fit your question:
>
> Dr James Wainwright Howard from Montclair, NJ graduated P&S in 1919
> Dr Charles Russell Witherspoon from Rochester, NY graduated Uof P in
> 1898
> No mention of a Dr. Bevoise [any spelling]) in NY, NJ or CT in 1936
>
> Doug B.

- - - -

> schaberg43 wrote:
>
> > I went down to Sotheby's today to take a long look at the Original
> > Manuscript copy that they will be auctioning off on Thursday, June
> > 21st. This is the OM copy where Hank, Ruth, Bill, and others
> > recorded ALL of the suggestions that they received for edits
before
> > actually printing the first edition of the Big Book. It is an
> > important historical document on many levels, but most
importantly,
> > I think, because it shows who made some of the suggestions and
also
> > allows you to see the suggestions that our founders did NOT take
> > when editing the Big Book.
> >
> > NOTE: I was privileged with a private viewing of this copy of the
> > Original Manuscript because I had assisted the cataloger in his
> > write up of the history of the Original Manuscript printings –
> > which, with the 13 photos, takes up 11½ pages of the catalog.
While
> > I had only 20 minutes to look at this piece when it was first
> > auctioned off in June of 2004, this time Sotheby's allowed me over
> > two hours to examine this important copy and it was a truly
amazing
> > two hours! What a piece of AA history!
> >
> > Just a couple of highlights.
> >
> > The original front cover of this copy is stamped in black
> > ink: "LOANED COPY" – something I have heard about but never seen
> > before. {Note: this copy is missing the original back cover along
> > with the two pages of "Index" usually found in these copies.)
> >
> > The reverse side (verso) of the title page has a long handwritten
> > note on it (see photo in lower left on page 224 of the Sotheby's
> > catalog). This note continues onto the verso of another loose
piece
> > of paper that is also included here (but not pictured in the
> > catalog).
> >
> > This is the manuscript copy of four paragraphs that were inserted
> > into "Bill's Story." The paragraphs in question are the first four
> > complete paragraphs found on page 12 of our basic text – starting
> > with "Despite…" and ending with "…would!" These additions –
> > certainly the largest edit to the Big Book immediately before it
was
> > published – include some extremely important AA precepts, not
least
> > of which is the italicized quote: "Why don't you choose your own
> > conception of God?"
> >
> > This manuscript section is not in Bill's hand. I suspect
(especially
> > given the free use of abbreviations) that it was written there by
> > Ruth Hock – either transcribed from Bill's notes or taken down
from
> > dictation.
> >
> > Once again, I noticed that the name of Doctor Howard was just
about
> > everywhere in the manuscript. He sure had a LOT to say about edits
> > to our book. In addition, two other doctors I have never before
> > heard referenced as contributors of Big Book suggestions list (Dr.
> > Witherspoon & Dr. Bevoise [sp?]) are also found here.
> >
> > The Manuscript is littered with several comments that seem to be
> > rather off-handed. One noted that something was "too groupy," i.e.
> > Oxford Groupy. But, my favorite was opposite the first three
> > paragraphs currently found on page 80 of the Big Book about making
> > amends: "Dangerous for the NUTS – some could go higher than a
kite."
> >
> > And there is some real history here. On the pages containing the
> > dropped story "Ace Full – Seven – Eleven," Bill has written the
> > author's name (something which has not been, to my knowledge, so
far
> > discovered) and includes a short comment on why the story has been
> > dropped. (I will refrain from sharing that information here since
it
> > rightly belongs to the owner of this copy of the Original
> > Manuscript.)
> >
> > Finally, it is interesting to note that none of the suggested
> > changes to Dr. Bob's story were taken. Someone – in an effort to
cut
> > the text – had advised deleting three paragraphs and Dr. Howard
> > wanted the last line of his story to read: "Your FAITH will never
> > let you down!" Bob, obviously, thought the story should remain `as
> > is.'
> >
> > If you are anywhere within driving distance of New York City, I
> > would advise you to make a trip there this coming Friday, June
15th
> > through Wednesday, June 20th to see this remarkable piece of our
> > history and to "put your hands on the Book." It was a very moving
> > experience for both me and my sponsor who joined me for this trip!
> >
> > Old Bill
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

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++++Message 5233. . . . . . . . . . . . Philosophy of Courage, introduced
From: james ryan . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/23/2008 7:16:00 PM

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AAHistoryLovers may be interested to know
that your moderator has written a generous
foreword to Philip Leon's Philosophy of
Courage, a book that expresses Oxford Group
ideas in philosophical form.

Leon's book was published in the same year as
the AA Big Book, so its take on Oxford Group
ideas is helpful in understanding both what
AA took from the OG, and what we left behind.

The full text of the Philosophy of Courage
will be made available shortly. Currently,
you can read Glenn's foreword in full at
stepstudy.org

>>Permanent link:
http://stepstudy.org/2008/09/23/foreword-to-philip-leons-philosophy-of-coura
ge-b\

y-glenn-f-chesnut/ [25]

Glenn's forward moves through Leon's book
chapter by chapter, introducing and explaining
key ideas. The Philosophy of Courage is not
always an easy book to read, so this foreword
should prove useful even to the most
philosophically minded drunks among us.

Enjoy

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++++Message 5234. . . . . . . . . . . . Philosophy of Courage, posted
From: james ryan . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/26/2008 1:33:00 PM

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The Philosophy of Courage, with Glenn F.
Chesnut's introduction, is now available
in the downloads section of stepstudy.org.

http://stepstudy.org/downloads-2/

http://stepstudy.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/philosophyofcourage.pdf

In fellowship,
James R.

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++++Message 5235. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: 2008 National AA Archives
Workshop?
From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/21/2008 8:45:00 PM

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Hi Rick

I had the opportunity to be there with good
friends, good AA history and Niagara Falls.
Overall, it was a wonderful experience. I also
had the opportunity to visit with the Akron
Archives folks before and after the NAW and
they are a treasure. Two PowerPoint
presentations on Saturday night highlighted
the event for me. Gail LaC of Akron Archives
gave a delightful presentation on her mentor
Nell Wing (with extended audio of Nell). Then
Jay M of Akron Archives gave a presentation
on "How Rockefeller Helped AA" that was an
absolute tour de force (and will be a future
book).

The approximately 1,900 members of this forum
should be encouraged to attend and support
the NAW. My only gripe (if you could call it
that) is that their multiple simultaneous
breakout sessions on Archives related topics
made me want to be in multiple places at the
same time. The NAW has effectively evolved
into a unique institution for those having a
love of AA History and the AA Archives service
function. The next NAW will be in southern
California and, the good Lord willing, I hope
to be there.

Cheers
Arthur

PS - the NAW is also an opportunity for the
"e-mailers" of this forum to get to see what
we look like (smile).

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++++Message 5236. . . . . . . . . . . . Dates and printings of various AA
books
From: JOHN WIKELIUS . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/23/2008 11:35:00 PM

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I am looking for help regarding dates and
printings of various AA books. If you have
a library or resource please advise:

nov85@graceba.net
(nov85 at graceba.net)

Working on a pamphlet with cover art and
printings of each publication.

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++++Message 5237. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: A book by Reese
From: Fiona Dodd . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/24/2008 1:46:00 PM

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I received some further information in
relation to Reese's book from a friend.

"But for the Grace of God: The Story of an
Alcoholic," copyright 1957.

A handwritten note says the book was out of
print in 1966. On the back cover, it says ...
He is/was "a cattle breeder and purchasing
agent living on a model farm near Davidsville,
Pa.... For years, he had been selling story
ideas to authors and finally decided to write
a story of his own, based on the lives of people
he had known, and colored from his own rich
background of varied experience. An admirer
and devoted pupil of Sister Ignatia, "The Angel
of AA," for a number of years, he became
impressed with the success of the "orthodox"
method of AA - which is directed at treating
"the whole man, and replacing misery with
happiness, not just leaving him an unhappy
nondrinker." Data for the present work was
collected through thousands of miles of travel
with his wife Ethel, and the story is founded
on fact." "In the foreword Reese says,
"... While all the incidents of the book are
not literally true, the story of Tom and Hazel
Keigwin is founded in reality.

My guess from just flipping through the book,
is that "only the names" have been changed
and this is the story of John and his wife and
family, etc. I noted that the nun's name at
St. Thomas is given as "Sr. Felice" and the
one at Charity was "Sr.Celia."

- - - -

From: Charlie C <route20guy@yahoo.com>
(route20guy at yahoo.com)

I checked this in the subscription version of
WorldCat, and only see three titles for an
author named Reece and publisher named Vantage.
I am guessing that the title, "How to find real
peace and happiness" by F.A. Reece, 1976, is
most likely, but there is another 1976 title
by F.A. Reece from 1976, "World War III - 1977?".
The third title is a mystery from 1989...

If you have other information I can check for
you. The free version of WorldCat, worldcat.org,
is fine for many sorts of research, but the more
exhaustive source is the subscription version
that most academic libraries use.

Charlie C.
IM = route20guy

- - - -

From the moderator, if we do a search for
the title "But for the Grace of God: The
Story of an Alcoholic" at

http://www.worldcat.org/

We come out with the following:

But for the grace of God; the story of an alcoholic.
by John D Reese
New York, Vantage Press [1957]
[1st ed.]

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++++Message 5238. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Lee T. foreword to A New Pair of
Glasses
From: aalogsdon@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/24/2008 9:52:00 AM

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Jerry Logsdon here. To get the history of
A NEW PAIR OF GLASSES read pages 376-379 of
the book THE WHEEL AND I by John Crean.
He was the man behind A NEW PAIR OF GLASSES
being written.

I talked to Clancy I. this a.m. and asked him
about Lee T. who wrote the foreword to A NEW
PAIR OF GLASSES. He couldn't recall his last
name, but told me that perhaps Lee wasn't the
best choice for the job. He died drunk a few
years later in Sacramento (Clancy thought
perhaps two years later).

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++++Message 5239. . . . . . . . . . . . ABE Books newsletter article on
alcoholism and AA
From: pauguspass . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/25/2008 9:36:00 PM

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Maybe a kudo can be cast to ABEBooks.com for
their September issue of the online newsletter
The Avid Reader.

They give some suggestions for books by authors
known to dabble in alcohol and drugs.

And at the end, one of our favorites.

http://www.abebooks.com/books/alcoholic-authors.shtml?cm_mmc=nl-_-nl-_-AR-09
-08-\

_-booze [26]

George Cleveland

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++++Message 5240. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: 2008 National AA Archives
Workshop?
From: jayaa82@earthlink.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/27/2008 5:37:00 PM

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I completely concur with Arthur's take on
the NAW, everyone should be there if they
have a chance. Almost more important than
the workshops is the networking and just
exchanging ideas with other archivists all
over the world.

I also really appreciate his kind comments
on my Rockefeller talk, it was a 7 year
journey of research and love. The book is
done and "in the wind" looking for a
publisher.

Thanks again Arthur.

Jay M.

----- Original Message -----
From: Arthur S
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 9/27/2008 4:55:51 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: 2008 National AA Archives Workshop?

Hi Rick

I had the opportunity to be there with good
friends, good AA history and Niagara Falls.
Overall, it was a wonderful experience. I also
had the opportunity to visit with the Akron
Archives folks before and after the NAW and
they are a treasure. Two PowerPoint
presentations on Saturday night highlighted
the event for me. Gail LaC of Akron Archives
gave a delightful presentation on her mentor
Nell Wing (with extended audio of Nell). Then
Jay M of Akron Archives gave a presentation
on "How Rockefeller Helped AA" that was an
absolute tour de force (and will be a future
book).

The approximately 1,900 members of this forum
should be encouraged to attend and support
the NAW. My only gripe (if you could call it
that) is that their multiple simultaneous
breakout sessions on Archives related topics
made me want to be in multiple places at the
same time. The NAW has effectively evolved
into a unique institution for those having a
love of AA History and the AA Archives service
function. The next NAW will be in southern
California and, the good Lord willing, I hope
to be there.

Cheers
Arthur

PS - the NAW is also an opportunity for the
"e-mailers" of this forum to get to see what
we look like (smile).

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 5241. . . . . . . . . . . . Ebby automobile crash
From: rodwoodard . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/1/2008 2:54:00 PM

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Regarding how Ebby was saved from incarceration
by Cebra Graves and Rowland Hazard and how Ebby
came to be in trouble with the local law
enforcement officials...

Can anyone confirm the validity of the story
about Ebby Thacher running his car into a
house? I've found this storey on several web
sites, one being Ebby's eulogy delivered by
Bill Wilson:

http://www.rewritables.net/cybriety/ebby%27s_eulogy.htm

I've also heard/read stories that he was
shooting pigeons at the Vermont house.

Nothing I've found is confirmed with police
records or any substantive evidence.

Thanks,

Rod

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++++Message 5242. . . . . . . . . . . . Ernie K. to speak Nov. 8, 2008
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/1/2008 10:32:00 PM

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Ernie K. (Ann Arbor, Michigan) will be
speaking on "Varieties of AA Experience"
at the Michiana Conference in South Bend,
Indiana, at 4:15 p.m. on Saturday,
November 8, 2008.

The topic will be the various types and
styles of early AA belief and practice,
where -- just as William James discovered
when he investigated religious experience
in general -- there was more than one way
to interpret and carry out the AA program.

His talk will be introduced by Glenn C.
(South Bend, Indiana).

For more information on the conference see:

http://hindsfoot.org/mchcon08.html

South Bend is on I80-I90 (the Indiana
Toll Road) 95 miles east of Chicago.

- - - -

Other speakers will include (in the morning)
Larry W., whose sponsor was Ernie Gerig of
Toledo, one of the original Akron AA group,
see Message 3779:

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/3779

(This was NOT the same Ernie as Ernie
Galbraith of "The Seventh Month Slip," the
man who married Dr. Bob's daughter Sue.)

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++++Message 5243. . . . . . . . . . . . Ebby before the Magistrate
From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/3/2008 8:33:00 AM

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The transcript of Bill W's 1954 conversation
with Cebra G, in the GSO Archives, gives some
details on Ebby's "court appearances," and
there's material in Mel B's little book on
Ebby.

The car-in-the-kitchen incident came first
and Ebby came up before the District
Magistrate, Cebra's father (Cebe's brother
Van has said that no written record exists
of this and he should know -- he was the
Prosecuting Attorney then). Ebby was released
on his own recognizance (if that's the right
term) pending a full hearing.

A little later came the pigeon incident and
before he came up before the magistrate on
that, Cebe and one of the others visited him
and Cebe told him he didn't have to live like
this any more.

When Ebby came up before the Magistrate for
the preliminary hearing on this, the Magistrate
(Cebe's father, you recall) sent him to NYC
in Rowland's custody (Rowland being 53, while
Cebe was only 35 or so), and the rest of the
story we know.

I believe all the charges lapsed or were nol
prossed but Van Graves could probably tell us
(though, of course, he is 102-plus and a bit
deaf, so conversation is difficult). Both the
people I know who have talked to Van recently
report his emphasis that his father wasn't a
Judge and that when Ebby appeared before him
it wasn't a formal judicial hearing -- and
thus, I gather, no formal record has survived.

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++++Message 5244. . . . . . . . . . . . Growing up
From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/3/2008 5:57:00 AM

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"Those adolescent urges that so many of us
have for complete approval, utter security
and perfect romance - urges quite appropriate
to age 17 - prove to be an impossible way of
life at 47 or 57. Since AA began, I've taken
huge wallops in all these areas because of
my failure to grow up, emotionally and
spiritually."

(Grapevine, January 1958, reprinted in
"As Bill Sees It" - page 330).

Is this veiled reference the only place where
Bill admits to the alleged marital infidelity
recorded by later writers (Robertson, Cheever,
Hartigan)?

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++++Message 5245. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Ebby before the Magistrate
From: LES COLE . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/3/2008 5:01:00 PM

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Hi Jared:

You will recall that I visited Van Graves in
the Assisted Living Home in Bennington during
my trip to Vermont in the summer of 2006.

Van made the point that it was "he" was a
"Judge" and that his father, Collins, was
"head" of the "family Court". (Perhaps the
correct name is "Municipal").

Van was adamant on that point. He seemed to
have strong feelings on that score.

I also have copies of Superior Court records
which list CEBRA as States Attorney during the
years that the Ebby incidents occurred, and it
was Cebra's father, Collins, who released Ebby
to Roland's custody.

I think it is safe for us to believe that it
was the combination of Cebra/Collins which
made those outcomes pretty obvious and foregone
conclusions.

I believe the history is correct that Ebby
then went to stay with Roland at his Glastenbury
home for several weeks before he went to
Calvary House in New York City. I believe that
Van was not a "Prosecutor" since he was a
"Judge" and had no part in the Ebby events in
a different "court".

Your research at Brown is probably the most
comprehensive of any which has been done. Have
you found any documentation which differs from
my findings? Please let me know.

You are correct that "there are no records" now
available because I asked at the office of the
current Municipal court in Bennington and they
said that no records exist now. Surely there
were records kept, but they just have not survived
there in Bennington.

Best regards,

Les

- - - -

jlobdell54@hotmail.com
Subject: Ebby before the Magistrate

The transcript of Bill W's 1954 conversation with Cebra G, in the GSO
Archives,
gives some details on Ebby's "court appearances," andthere's material in Mel
B's
little book on Ebby.The car-in-the-kitchen incident came first and Ebby came
up
before the District Magistrate, Cebra's father (Cebe's brother Van has said
that
no written record exists of this and he should know -- he was the
Prosecuting
Attorney then). Ebby was released on his own recognizance (if that's the
right
term) pending a full hearing.A little later came the pigeon incident and
before
he came up before the magistrate on that, Cebe and one of the others visited
him
and Cebe told him he didn't have to live like this any more.When Ebby came
up
before the Magistrate for the preliminary hearing on this, the Magistrate
(Cebe's father, you recall) sent him to NYC in Rowland's custody (Rowland
being
53, while Cebe was only 35 or so), and the rest of the story we know.I
believe
all the charges lapsed or were nol prossed but Van Graves could probably
tell us
(though, of course, he is 102-plus and a bit deaf, so conversation is
difficult). Both the people I know who have talked to Van recently report
his
emphasis that his father wasn't a Judge and that when Ebby appeared before
him
it wasn't a formal judicial hearing -- and thus, I gather, no formal record
has
survived.

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++++Message 5246. . . . . . . . . . . . Dick B. in California: October
10-13, 2008
From: diazeztone . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/30/2008 4:26:00 PM

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Recovery History Conference with Dick B. in
Southern California -- October 10-13, 2008

Friday, October 10th in Pasadena
10:00 A.M. to 3:30 P.M.

Saturday, October 11th in North Hollywood
1:30 P.M. to 4:00 P.M.

Sunday, October 12th in Pasadena
10:00 A.M. to 9:00 P.M.

Monday, October 13th in San Dimas
7:00 P.M. to 9:30 P.M.

The conference flyer is posted on several sites:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/blog/post/PLNK3CQ94A1K5JNDE

http://dailystrength.org/c/Alcoholism/forum/4807013-early-aa-history

http://www.anythingboard.com/showthread.php?t=86

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++++Message 5247. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Ernie K. to speak Nov. 8, 2008
From: Woodstock . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/3/2008 12:07:00 PM

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A CD DISK WILL BE AVAILABLE:

I am so hoping Ernie's talk makes it to the
web. I would absolutely be excited to hear
his presentation regarding this subject.

Peace,
Jim Sc.
Pensacola, FL

- - - -
From: carol cosens <delorac06@yahoo.com>
(delorac06 at yahoo.com)
Hi is there anyway I could get a copy of
Ernie's talk? thanks carol c
- - - -
From: <edie.s@tx.rr.com> (edie.s at tx.rr.com)
Will anyone be recording Ernie's talk? I'd
like to have in any format.
- - - -

ASK FOR THE CD OF THE TALK
by Ernie K. from Ann Arbor, Michigan, at
the Michiana Conference in South Bend on
November 8, 2008:

BLUEPRINT TAPES
960 Morgan St.
Clinton, Indiana 47842
email: BlueprintTapes@aol.com
phone: 765 / 832 / 9971

- - - -

Glenn Chesnut <glennccc@...> wrote:
>
> Ernie K. (Ann Arbor, Michigan) will be
> speaking on "Varieties of AA Experience"
> at the Michiana Conference in South Bend,
> Indiana, at 4:15 p.m. on Saturday,
> November 8, 2008.
>
> The topic will be the various types and
> styles of early AA belief and practice,
> where -- just as William James discovered
> when he investigated religious experience
> in general -- there was more than one way
> to interpret and carry out the AA program.
>
> http://hindsfoot.org/mchcon08.html

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++++Message 5248. . . . . . . . . . . . Mel B.''s talk in South Bend in 2007
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/3/2008 5:13:00 PM

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AA historian Mel B. (sober 1950) told his
story at the Michiana Conference in South Bend,
Indiana, a year ago, in 2007 (the same
conference where Ernie K. will be speaking
this year).

A CD disk of that talk is also available from
Blueprint Tapes.

Mel B. was the primary author of Pass It On,
the conference biography of Bill W., also see:

http://www.walkindryplaces.com/books.html

Ask for a CD of the talk by Mel B. from
Toledo, Ohio, at the Michiana Conference in
South Bend on September 15, 2007:

Blueprint Tapes
960 Morgan St.
Clinton, Indiana 47842
email: BlueprintTapes@aol.com
phone: 765 / 832 / 9971

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++++Message 5249. . . . . . . . . . . . Fifty Books Tracing AA''s History
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/3/2008 6:29:00 PM

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The 2009 Alcoholics Anonymous History Calendar
produced by Charlie Bishop, Jr., the AA book
dealer and bibliographer, contains Charlie's
selection of what he believes to be the fifty
best books to read for a good understanding of
A.A. history.

http://hindsfoot.org/fiftybk.html

It's a thought provoking list, both in terms
of what it includes and what it does not
include.

- - - -

For example, Charlie includes

LeClair Bissell and James E. Royce, Ethics
for Addiction Professionals (Hazelden 1987)

We have had almost nothing in the AAHistoryLovers
about LeClair, in spite of the fact that she
was a very important figure. Sally Brown can
maybe help us out, because she and David talk
about LeClair in the Marty Mann book. LeClair
died just a few weeks ago:

http://www.news-press.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080827/NEWS0116/80827
0408\

/1001/archives [27]

"Retired Sanibel physician LeClair Bissell,
an internationally known and much-published
expert on addiction, died August 20, 2008.
She was 80."

- - - -

Other books from Charlie's list which ought
perhaps to be discussed in this web group are:

Joseph Kessel, The Road Back: A Report on
Alcoholics Anonymous (Knopf 1962)

Thomas Randall, The Twelfth Step, A Novel
(Scribner's 1957)

Roger Treat, The Endless Road (A. S. Barnes
1959)

Alcohol, Science and Society: Twenty-nine
Lectures with Discussions as given at the
Yale Summer School of Alcohol Studies
(Quarterly Journal of Studies on Alcohol,
1945)

James E. Royce, Alcohol Problems and
Alcoholism: A Comprehensive Survey (Free
Press 1981)

Elizabeth Burns [Gertrude Behanna], The
Late Liz: The Autobiography of an Ex-Pagan
(Appleton-Century-Crofts 1957, Meredith
Press 1968)

- - - -

Charlie Bishop spent many years assembling
a collection of 15,000 books, pamphlets,
and other printed materials published by
and about the A.A. movement, see Charlie
Bishop, Jr., and Bill Pittman, To Be
Continued: The Alcoholics Anonymous World
Bibliography 1935-1994 (Bishop of Books
1994).

This became the nucleus of the world famous
Chester H. Kirk Collection on Alcoholism and
Alcoholics Anonymous at Brown University:

http://www.aabibliography.com/chester_kirk_collection.htm

http://www.brownalumnimagazine.com/march/april_2000/archive_of_recovery.html

http://dl.lib.brown.edu/libweb/collections/kirk/

http://www.brown.edu/Facilities/University_Library/publications/Bibliofile/B
ibli\

o26/Chester.html [28]

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++++Message 5250. . . . . . . . . . . . Oldest AA meeting place
From: tompasek . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/4/2008 10:50:00 AM

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Does anyone know what location holds the
longevity record for holding AA meetings?

There is a place here in Bakersfield,
California, (106 Lincoln St) that has held
meetings since 1948.

Is that perhaps the current record?

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++++Message 5251. . . . . . . . . . . . Magistrates and Judges
From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/3/2008 9:49:00 PM

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Van was (later) the (Probate) Judge, the only
official in the Vermont local legal system
called "Judge" -- What I've seen shows Cebe as
Prosecuting Attorney (a State, not a local,
position) before he was State Senator (which
he was from 1933 to 1935, no?).

The putative date for the Ebby thing is 1934,
and I'd be surprised if Cebe were still
actively the State's Attorney in that year,
but it's possible.

I could be wrong that Van represented the
State in cases before his father (and that
may not be the best way to put it), but he
was licensed to appear in Family Court.

Ebby, of course, was never prosecuted, and
in fact, if this was, as Van pointed out, a
Family Court situation, there would be no
prosecution. If Ebby came up before the
Family Court Magistrate, it was because the
FCM has the authority to commit mental cases
to the State Hospital.

[You know that Cebe had gone down to NYC to
see Sam Shoemaker in the twelve months before
Ebby went down with Rowland, and I think Cebe
went either with Rowland or at Rowland's
urging. Certainly it was Rowland rather than
Shep who got Cebe involved with the OG.]

In any case, it looks as though the Magistrate
(Collins G) decided it was better to get Ebby
out of Vermont and into the Oxford Group than
to commit him to the State Hospital as a
mental case. So it wasn't that the charges
were nol prossed -- the Magistrate investigated
the case and there were no charges.

Hence the importance of Van's statement that
his father, in this context, wasn't a Judge.

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++++Message 5252. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Fifty Books and LeClair Bissell
From: James Flynn . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/3/2008 9:03:00 PM

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In response to Charlie Bishop, Jr.
<bishopbk@comcast.net> (bishopbk at comcast.net)
and his "Fifty Books Tracing AA's History"
at http://hindsfoot.org/fiftybk.html

- - - -

From Jim F:

I am sorry to hear about LeClair Bissell, I
took an ethics for addictions counselor course
from her at the University of the District of
Columbia many years ago. She was an interesting
and engaging character with a history that
included being the medical director of two of
the most well known and respected treatment
centers in the USA. I remember talking to her
about the possibility of doing an intervention
on my father who was retired trial lawyer.
She told me that attorneys are some of the
most difficult people to intervene on because
they are very skilled at verbal confrontation.
She told me that you have to "get a lawyer by
their license" (to practice law) and use that
as leverage. Unfortunately my father had
already retired.

Sincerely, Jim F.

- - - -

Message 5249 said:

Charlie's list of fifty great AA books includes:

LeClair Bissell and James E. Royce, Ethics
for Addiction Professionals (Hazelden 1987)

We have had almost nothing in the AAHistoryLovers
about LeClair, in spite of the fact that she
was a very important figure. Sally Brown can
maybe help us out, because she and David talk
about LeClair in the Marty Mann book. LeClair
died just a few weeks ago:

http://www.news-press.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080827/NEWS0116/80827
0408\

/1001/archives [27]

"Retired Sanibel physician LeClair Bissell,
an internationally known and much-published
expert on addiction, died August 20, 2008.
She was 80."

- - - -

From: "Sally Brown" <rev.sally@att.net>
(rev.sally at att.net)

I was so sorry to hear about LeClair's death.
I think I half-believed she was immortal.
It's a miracle she lived to age 80. Did you
know she suffered much of her life from some
kind of rare blood disorder for which she had
to take a large number of daily pills in order
to stay alive?

LeClair was of absolutely enormous help to Dave
and me with constant references, information,
and encouragement. Marty's story would never
have been written by us without her opening
one door after another.

One time I told LeClair she needed to write
her own story. Her contributions to the
alcoholism movement should be documented. But
she said she would leave that to others after
she died. I recall her saying once that she'd
designated Anne Geller MD as her executor,
and that her substantial archives would be
housed at a location I don't remember, but
Anne would know. I've emailed ASAM for how
to contact Anne. Actually, I don't know if
she's even alive - though she's younger than
LeClair.

Rev Sally Brown
Board Certified Chaplain
United Church of Christ

Coauthor with David R Brown:
A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann:
The First Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous
http://www.sallyanddavidbrown.com

1470 Sand Hill Rd, 309
Palo Alto, California 94304
Phone/Fax: 650 325 5258
Email: rev.sally@att.net
(rev.sally at att.net)

- - - -

From: Glenn C. <glennccc@sbcglobal.net>
(glennccc at sbcglobal.net)

When (quite a few years ago) Nancy Olson woke
up in an emergency room with a deep gash on
her forehead, she realized that she had to
stop drinking. She was dumped into a near
psychotic state once the alcohol left her
system, when all the painful thoughts she had
been avoiding suddenly came crashing in on her.

LeClair Bissell was the only psychiatrist
whom Nancy trusted enough to turn herself over
to. And LeClair, by her skill, did get Nancy
back to sanity (and sobriety).

Later on, in 2000, Nancy founded the AA
history group which is now known as the
AAHistoryLovers. So in fact this web group
would not have come into existence if it
had not been for LeClair's work. Even at the
end of her life, LeClair remained one of
the handful of people whom Nancy admired and
respected and loved and trusted more than
anyone else she had ever known.

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++++Message 5253. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Fifty Books Tracing AA''s
History
From: John Schram . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/3/2008 11:15:00 PM

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In response to Charlie Bishop, Jr.
<bishopbk@comcast.net> (bishopbk at comcast.net)
and his "Fifty Books Tracing AA's History"
at http://hindsfoot.org/fiftybk.html

- - - -

New to group and glad I found this site.
Great list to keep and add to my collection.
I would add four books I found interesting:

William Seabrook, "Asylum"

Henry Hough, "An Alcoholic to his Sons"

Jack London, "John Barleycorn"

Jim Bishop, "The Glass Crutch"

In addition to those four, something in the
style of "The Lost Weekend" but a little
heavier reading is Malcolm Lowry, "Under the
Volcano"

- - - -

Message 5249 said:
>
> Other books from Charlie's list which ought
> perhaps to be discussed in this web group are:
>
> Joseph Kessel, The Road Back: A Report on
> Alcoholics Anonymous (Knopf 1962)
>
> Thomas Randall, The Twelfth Step, A Novel
> (Scribner's 1957)
>
> Roger Treat, The Endless Road (A. S. Barnes
> 1959)
>
> Alcohol, Science and Society: Twenty-nine
> Lectures with Discussions as given at the
> Yale Summer School of Alcohol Studies
> (Quarterly Journal of Studies on Alcohol,
> 1945)
>
> James E. Royce, Alcohol Problems and
> Alcoholism: A Comprehensive Survey (Free
> Press 1981)
>
> Elizabeth Burns [Gertrude Behanna], The
> Late Liz: The Autobiography of an Ex-Pagan
> (Appleton-Century-Crofts 1957, Meredith
> Press 1968)

- - - -

From the moderator:

On Jim Bishop, "The Glass Crutch" (1945) see
Richard M. Dubiel, The Road to Fellowship:

http://hindsfoot.org/kDub1.html

Pages 50-54, 56, 156-158, 174, 176.

Dubiel skillfully uses "The Glass Crutch" to
show popular American attitudes toward both
alcoholism and psychiatry during that period.
And in particular, the central figure in
"The Glass Crutch" meets Richard R. Peabody,
author of "The Common Sense of Drinking,"
in a fictional encounter set in 1934.

Although it is fictional, Dubiel shows how
the description of Peabody's ideas gives us
valuable insights into how Americans at
that time thought about Peabody's approach
to treating alcoholism (an approach which,
we remember, had an important influence on
Bill Wilson).

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

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++++Message 5254. . . . . . . . . . . . LeClair Bissell memorial Oct. 11,
2008
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/4/2008 4:25:00 PM

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LeClair Bissell's memorial service has been
scheduled for October 11th, 2008 at 10:00 a.m.
in Miller Sanctuary:

Unitarian Universalist Church of Fort Myers
13411 Shire Lane, Fort Myers, Florida 33912
phone 239 / 561 / 2700
http://www.uucfm.org/

Contributions in her honor may be made payable
to UUCFM.

- - - -

One of LeClair's other great loves was
rescuing abused and abandoned chihuahuas:

http://www.chihuahua-rescue.com/

She was one of the founding members of
that group, Chihuahua Rescue and Transport.

(There is currently a marvelous picture on
that website of LeClair holding a chihuahua
named Olivia.)

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++++Message 5255. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Fifty Books Tracing AA''s
History
From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/5/2008 7:41:00 AM

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"Of the making of books there is no end" -
Ecclesiastes 12:12.

So, also:

Upton Sinclair, the Cup of Fury;

Thomas B Gilmore, Equivocal Spirits: alcoholism
and drinking in 20th century literature;

James Graham, The Secret History of Alcoholism;

James B Nelson, Thirst: God and the alcoholic
experience,

and so on and so on.

Apropos: "... in the good time coming, when
alcohol is eliminated from the needs and the
institutions of men, it will be the YMCA, and
similar unthinkably better and wiser and more
virile congregating places, that will receive
the men who now go to saloons to find
themselves and one another..." from

John Barleycorn: "Alcoholic Memoirs", by
Jack London, published in 1913 - 22 years
before AA.

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++++Message 5256. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Magistrates and Judges
From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/4/2008 4:46:00 PM

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At 20:49 10/3/2008, jlobdell54 wrote:

>Van was (later) the (Probate) Judge, the only
>official in the Vermont local legal system
>called "Judge" -- What I've seen shows Cebe as
>Prosecuting Attorney (a State, not a local,
>position) before he was State Senator (which
>he was from 1933 to 1935, no?).

I can confirm this part of Jared's post.

My maternal grandfather was a lawyer in
Newport, Vermont, the county seat of
Orleans County, one of the three counties
constituting Vermont's Northeast Kingdom.

He was the probate judge, whether for the
county or the town, I'm not sure. He died
when I was quite young but his friends
would refer to him as "your grandfather
the judge."

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

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++++Message 5257. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Oldest AA meeting place
From: gregory merkel . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/4/2008 6:12:00 PM

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My vote goes to the Minneapolis Alano Club,
better known as "2218" they been holding
meetings since 1941.

- - - -

"tompasek" <tp@...> wrote:
>
> Does anyone know what location holds the
> longevity record for holding AA meetings?
>
> There is a place here in Bakersfield,
> California, (106 Lincoln St) that has held
> meetings since 1948.
>
> Is that perhaps the current record?

- - - -

From: Bent Christensen
<bent_christensen5@yahoo.com>
(bent_christensen5 at yahoo.com)

I think this one is even older but I don't
know if it is the oldest?

Minneapolis
Alano Society of Minneapolis, Inc.
2218 First Avenue South
Minneapolis, Minnesota 55404-3401
telephone 612 / 871 / 2218

Established and incorporated March 28, 1942,
with first Beginner's Class started on the
first Wednesday of May, 1942, at their
current, continuously operating location.
36 A.A. meetings per week.

Kind regards
Bent Christensen
Valmuevej 17 6000 Kolding
Tlf. 23 84 54 26

http://www.pass-it-on.dk/

http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/StoreBog_studie/

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++++Message 5258. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Fifty Books Tracing AA''s
History
From: JOHN WIKELIUS . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/5/2008 6:24:00 PM

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My contribution is Ten Nights in a Barroom by
T. S. Arthur.

- - - -

From the moderator:

T. S. (Timothy Shay) Arthur (1809-1885)
is most famous for his temperance novel
"Ten Nights in a Bar-Room and What I Saw
There" (1854), which helped demonize alcohol
in the eyes of the American public.

In 1840 he wrote a series of newspaper
articles on the Washingtonian Temperance
Society. The articles were widely reprinted
and helped fuel the establishment of
Washingtonian groups across the country.
Arthur’s newspaper sketches were collected
in book form as "Six Nights with the
Washingtonians" (1842).

The greatest impact however came when William
W. Pratt turned Arthur's book into a play
called "Ten Nights in a Barroom" in 1858.
Joe Morgan, the village drunkard, is encouraged
in his boozing and other irresponsible ways
by Simon Slade, the evil owner of the
Sickle and Sheaf bar. Even the plea of his
little daughter, Mary (“Father, dear father,
come home”), cannot drag Morgan away for long.
In a barroom brawl Mary is accidentally struck
by a glass thrown at her father. The shock
helps Morgan reform, Slade is killed by his
own son, and the village votes to close the
saloon. This prohibitionist drama was never
popular in major cities, but was second only
to Uncle Tom's Cabin on rural circuits.

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++++Message 5259. . . . . . . . . . . . Remembering LeClair Bissell
From: Audrey Borden . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/7/2008 12:57:00 AM

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I was saddened to learn of LeClaire's
Bissell's passing last night when I read my
email, and thought of her fondly today
throughout the day. We never met in person,
but she spoke with me when I contacted her
by phone in my research for "The History of
Gay People in Alcoholics Anonymous." She
offerred me much useful advice, including
telling me about the wonderful book "Dual
Identities" by Dana Finnegan & Emily
McNally.

She generously agreed to share some of her
story with me, which appears in the book
under the initials "L.B." During the interview
we were interrupted several times by a fierce
chihuahua who, she told me, had recently
had surgery. It was such a charming part of
the interview that I left the interruptions
in the final piece. They seemed to reveal
her great heart, beneath an intimidating
intellect and no-nonsense manner. (She was
my very first interview and I wanted to
impress her. Boy, did she impress me!

Re: LeClaire's papers, she did mention that
day that the Archives of Women in Medicine
in Philadelphia has her papers, "easily
ninety percent of what I've written, should
anybody ever wish to find them and make me
immortal."

I will miss LeClaire. It was comforting to
know such a mighty force for good was abroad
in the world.

Audrey Borden

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++++Message 5260. . . . . . . . . . . . Signed "Yours in Christ" --- Bill
Wilson, 1/13/43
From: bigbookken . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/8/2008 6:21:00 PM

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Hello All ---

FYI:

I just purchased a First Edition, Third
printing Big Book inscribed on the front free
endpaper, "To my friend Dr. Jesse M. Bader,
Yours in Christ, Bill Wilson, 1/13/43."

Jesse Moren Bader (1886-1963)was a noted
evangelist, ecumenist and global leader. He
founded the global, ecumenical, World Communion
Sunday which was launched on October 6, 1940
and continues on the first Sunday in October
each year.

This is the first time I've ever seen Bill W.
inscribe anything "Yours in Christ" and it's
also notable that he signed his full name. He
apparently stopped signing his full last name
about the time the Traditions were coming out.

Sincerely,

Ken R.

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++++Message 5261. . . . . . . . . . . . Update on Niebuhr and the Serenity
Prayer
From: jblair101 . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/8/2008 3:52:00 PM

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The man behind the Serenity Prayer — or not
By Derek Tam
Staff Reporter
Yale Daily News
October 8, 2008

For a prayer that asks for serenity, the past three months have been
anything but serene.

"God, give us grace to accept with serenity the things that cannot be
changed, courage to change the things that should be changed, and the
wisdom to distinguish the one from the other," reads the well-known
supplication.

The Serenity Prayer — perhaps the most famous prayer to originate in
modern times — has long been ascribed to noted theologian Reinhold
Niebuhr '14 GRD '15. For over 60 years, the prayer has served as the
cornerstone of 12-step recovery programs like Alcoholics Anonymous.
Countless people have testified to its power to inspire and console.

But recent research by associate Yale Law School librarian Fred
Shapiro has cast Niebuhr's authorship into question.

When The New York Times published an article about Shapiro's findings
in July, it drew the ire of numerous critics, chief among them
Elisabeth Sifton, Niebuhr's daughter and the author of "The Serenity
Prayer: Faith and Politics in Times of Peace and War." Although
Shapiro stressed that he does not think Niebuhr would deliberately
plagiarized the prayer, articles by both Shapiro and Sifton in the
July-August issue of the Yale Alumni Magazine have only further
divided opinion within academic and theological circles.

An influential theologian

Niebuhr, who died in 1971, deeply influenced Christian thought in the
latter half of the 20th century. Although he was a prominent figure in
liberal politics, Niebuhr broke with the left on the issue of World
War II. Despite his German roots, Niebuhr called for action against
Hitler and Nazi Germany and later spoke out against communism.

Preaching in Detroit in the 1920s, Niebuhr advocated strongly for the
rights of automobile workers. Although he left Detroit in 1928 to
teach at the Union Theological Seminary in New York City, Niebuhr
remained highly involved in issues of social justice throughout his
career.

But the domestic strife and international turmoil of the 1930s
compelled the theologian to step up his criticism of the "benign
optimism" of mainstream Christian thought. Once World War II erupted
in 1939, Niebuhr soon became a proponent of action against Germany,
alienating many of his former peers in the process.

In the midst of the turmoil of the war, Niebuhr composed a short
prayer for a church service in Heath, Mass., where he preached during
the summer of 1943.

Over the past six decades, the prayer's popularity has grown
exponentially. The United Service Organizations had distributed the
prayer to hundreds of thousands of servicemen by the end of World War
II. After years of using the prayer, Alcoholics Anonymous finally
credited it to Niebuhr in 1950. By the time Hallmark first featured
the prayer in its graduation cards in 1962, it was well on its way
toward commercial ubiquity.

Prior to Shapiro's article over the summer, people had attributed the
prayer to sources as diverse as the ancient Greeks and obscure
18th-century theologian Friedrich Oetinger, yet no one had ever
seriously challenged Niebuhr's authorship.

The controversy

When Shapiro, the editor of "The Yale Book of Quotations," found
variants of the Serenity Prayer circulating in newspapers from
Massachusetts to Texas as early as 1936 — seven years before Niebuhr
wrote it down — the news landed on the front page of The New York Times.

"Sometimes [people] used it as if it was already well known; sometimes
they [didn't] even treat it as a prayer," Shapiro told the News. "But
people used it without referring to Niebuhr."

Shapiro said almost all of the early references he found were from
women, many of them teachers and social workers. He theorized the
Serenity Prayer originated in social and church groups staffed mainly
by women, in an oral process akin to the evolution of folklore.

The conflicting Alcoholics Anonymous accounts of the origin of the
prayer also offered little help.

"Originally, they said that one of their members found it in an
obituary in 1939 or 1940, or 1941, or 1942," Shapiro said. "Later,
when they heard that Niebuhr wrote it, they were very generous and
attributed it to him."

In addition, Shapiro said, Niebuhr's failure to publish the prayer
until 1951 casts doubt on authorship.

"It's mysterious," Shapiro said. "It almost seems that other people
attributed it to him, and he said, `Yes, I did write it,' but this was
some years after."

Sifton, senior vice president of publishing house Farrar, Straus &
Giroux, vehemently contested Shapiro's claims.

"I can start by [saying] that there isn't much controversy except that
stirred up by Mr. Shapiro," Sifton said. "It's ludicrous for me to
find myself in a position to defend [Niebuhr's] authorship."

She denounced Shapiro's research, which relies on Internet search
engines such as JSTOR and LexisNexis. As editor of "The Yale Book of
Quotations," Shapiro sifts through the databases to find the first
written record of famous quotes.

"I'm a working publisher. I work with writers and authors all the
time," Sifton said. "The issue of authorship is a great deal more
complex and intricate than that."

Sifton dismissed Shapiro's claim that the prayer originated in women's
social circles, even though she said she was not at all surprised that
the first citations found were from women, given her father's advocacy
for social justice. She said Niebuhr frequently attended YWCA
meetings, where he worked with women to address issues of social change.

Sifton said she saw the sentiments expressed in the prayer "reflected
in every day of [Niebuhr's] life." She argues that Shapiro's lack of
familiarity with the prayer's spiritual context makes his quest to
find the origins of the prayer suspect.

"Mr. Shapiro does not know anything about theology," Sifton said.
"[He] calls it not intellectually sophisticated. Well, it's very
sophisticated if you are acquainted with spiritual literature."

The wider debate

Several prominent academics and theologians across the country
interviewed by the News said that while the prayer was consistent with
Niebuhr's theology, the oral nature of a prayer makes it difficult to
ascertain authorship.

Niebuhr himself expressed some doubts about his authorship. Late in
life he told a magazine in 1950, "Of course, it may have been spooking
around for years, even centuries, but I don't think so. I honestly do
believe that I wrote it myself."

Sifton attributed the "resigned sadness" of that quotation to
Niebuhr's modesty and declining health at the time.

"He was suffering from deep depression after a stroke when he first
got a whole lot of mail about [his] authorship," Sifton said.

The Rev. Gary Dorrien, Reinhold Niebuhr professor of social ethics at
Union Theological Seminary, said even if Niebuhr unconsciously adapted
the prayer, the final product bore the theologian's unmistakable
signature.

"Niebuhr would not have asserted something that he knew was not true,"
Dorrien said. "Its emphasis on humility, on realistic limits — it
certainly sounds like Niebuhr to me."

Thomas Ogletree, Frederick Marquand professor of ethics and religious
studies at Yale Divinity School, said he was skeptical of Shapiro's
research, although he also acknowledged that similar prayers often
have arisen out of "the interactions and relationships of diverse
faith communities."

"I would not readily concede any suggestions that he deliberately
plagiarized this prayer, claiming credit for something that was not
his own," Ogletree wrote in an e-mail.

Shapiro emphasized his findings do not disprove Niebuhr's claim to the
Serenity Prayer but merely demonstrate the power of current research
tools and "cast doubt" on the theologian's authorship.

Whoever might be the author of the 33-word prayer, both Shapiro and
Sifton testified to its unique resonance.

"It's probably the most important prayer after the Lord's Prayer,"
Shapiro said. "I've received numerous messages from people that said
that the Serenity Prayer saved their lives, that it's absolutely
crucial to their lives."

Sifton said she appreciated Shapiro's gesture, but posed one final
question to the librarian.

"I'm glad that he thinks that it's important, but I'm puzzled, as were
many of the correspondents that wrote to me, by his eagerness to
establish that my father didn't write it," she said.

"Who does he think wrote it, then?"

Source: http://www.yaledailynews.com/articles/view/25621

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++++Message 5262. . . . . . . . . . . . Local and regional AA history sites
From: mrpetesplace . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/4/2008 10:41:00 PM

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I have a site where I put up a custom search
engine for AA History and Archive sites.

http://aastuff.com/

If you have a site with local or regional
AA history, please send a link at this email
address:

<peter@aastuff.com>
(peter at aastuff.com)

so I can get as many sites possible with
as much information to search.

If it is your district, area, or intergroup
site that is fine. I will be trying to avoid
commercial sites. (Sites will not be excluded
simply because they may have items for sale,
but at all times the primary search is for
information on history.)

Peter F.

<peter@aastuff.com>
(peter at aastuff.com)

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++++Message 5263. . . . . . . . . . . . Resentment article by clergyman
From: Laurence Holbrook . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/9/2008 6:24:00 PM

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The Big Book story "Freedom from Bondage"
contains the well-known "industrial strength"
resentment remover.

Starting at the bottom of page 551, Wynn L.
says, "During the day, a friend of mine brought
me some magazines to take to a hospital group
I was interested in. I looked through them.
A banner across one featured an article by a
prominent clergyman in which I caught the word
resentment."

The article said that "if you will ask in
prayer for everything you want for yourself
to be given to them, you will be free."

Any clues as to which magazine, the identity
of the clergyman, or the article itself?

Thanks,

Larry Holbrook

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++++Message 5264. . . . . . . . . . . . The 61 Rules, does a copy exist?
From: Laurence Holbrook . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/9/2008 6:45:00 PM

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In the 12&12, tradition four, it talks about
the Middleton Group that had BIG plans - it
mentions that they had 61 rules - when it all
fell apart, rule 62 evolved, "Don't take
yourself so seriously."

What were the original 61 rules?

Thanks,

Larry

- - - -

From the moderator: this has been asked
before, about a year ago, and nobody could
come up with any list of that sort. But I
think it is worthwhile asking it again, just
to make sure that nobody has that information
anywhere.

This was in Message 4560 (Sep 24, 2007):

> The 61 Rules, does a copy exist?
>
> I can see in the AA History Lovers Archive
> that the question has come up before, but
> without resolution.
>
> Does any have the text or a document or a
> PDF or a URL for the first 61 rules from the
> story in the 12&12 about "Rule #62"?
>
> [See Twelve Steps & Twelve Traditions pp.
> 147-149: Rule No. 62, "Don't take yourself
> too damn seriously."]

To tell you the truth, I kind of hope that
this list of 61 rules is never found, because
if it were discovered, I fear that we would
immediately get some faction in AA that
wanted to force everyone else to follow all
61 of them!

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

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++++Message 5265. . . . . . . . . . . . Moral psychology
From: james ryan . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/9/2008 7:22:00 PM

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Big Book (4th ed.), The Doctor's Opinion,
page xxvii -- "We doctors have realized for
a long time that some form of moral psychology
was of urgent importance to alcoholics ...."

And page xxxi -- Fitz Mayo, "Our Southern
Friend," who hid in the deserted barn. "His
alcoholic problem was so complex, and his
depression so great, that we felt his only
hope would be through what we then called
'moral psychology,' and we doubted if even
that would have any effect."

- - - -

Below is the Oxford English Dictionary's
entry for "moral psychology." The uses it
cites are interesting, especially the one
from J. S. Mill, but none of them are a
good match for Silkworth's usage in the
Dr's Opinion.

It's a shame that the OED skips from 1867 to
1972. They do not offer any usage contemporary
with the BB.

From the OED:

"moral psychology n. the psychology of
morality and human action, esp. as a subject
of philosophical study.

1859 J. MARTINEAU in National Rev. 9 504 Does
an author, who has so distinguished himself in
Logical psychology,..doubt that there is also
a *Moral psychology?

1867 J. S. MILL Exam. Hamilton's Philos.
(ed. 3) xxvi. 586 This vital truth in moral
psychology, that we can improve our character
if we will.

1972 J. RAWLS Theory of Justice §29. 181 The
parties must consider the general facts of
moral psychology."

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++++Message 5266. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Oldest AA meeting place
From: Ken Ring . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/10/2008 1:59:00 PM

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Continuous meetings have taken place on
a regular basis at the Alano Society of
Minneapolis, 2218 1st Avenue South,
Minneapolis, Minnesota since the week
following the first Beginner's Meeting, which
was held on May 17, 1942.

The first "squad" meeting including Pat Cronin,
Barry Collins, Ed Webster and others.

Prior to the purchase of the old John Washburn
Mansion, there were meetings held at several
locations, including the Citizen's Aid
Building where they continued to hold "open"
meetings due to space limitations for large
groups.

Originally referred to as the Minneapolis
Group, they incorporated on March 28, 1942
in order to purchase the property.

Ken R., Archivist/Historian
Alano Society of Minneapolis, Inc.

- - - -

"tompasek" <tp@...> wrote:
>
> Does anyone know what location holds the
> longevity record for holding AA meetings?
>
> There is a place here in Bakersfield,
> California, (106 Lincoln St) that has held
> meetings since 1948.
>
> Is that perhaps the current record?

- - - -

From: Bent Christensen
<bent_christensen5@yahoo.com>
(bent_christensen5 at yahoo.com)

I think this one is even older but I don't
know if it is the oldest?

Minneapolis
Alano Society of Minneapolis, Inc.
2218 First Avenue South
Minneapolis, Minnesota 55404-3401
telephone 612 / 871 / 2218

Established and incorporated March 28, 1942,
with first Beginner's Class started on the
first Wednesday of May, 1942, at their
current, continuously operating location.
36 A.A. meetings per week.

Kind regards
Bent Christensen
Valmuevej 17 6000 Kolding
Tlf. 23 84 54 26

http://www.pass-it-on.dk/

http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/StoreBog_studie/

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++++Message 5267. . . . . . . . . . . . Ignatia''s birth certificate
From: Fiona Dodd . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/26/2008 2:40:00 PM

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Ignatia's birth certificate confirms her
place of birth as Shanvalley as opposed to
Ballyheane. It also confirms the alternate
spelling of the Neary name and that her
father married in to the Neary/Nary family as
opposed to her mother marrying in to his.

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++++Message 5268. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Oldest AA meeting place
From: Sally Brown . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/10/2008 6:25:00 PM

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Hi, Faithful Folks - Sorry to be so slow in
contributing some info about AA's earlier
meetings. Here are a few things Dave and I
found out when we were researching the Marty
Mann bio:

a.. "The loss of the [Wilson's] Clinton
Street house [c June 1939] meant that the AA
meeting had to find a new home, too. Marty
and Grennie persuaded Anna Wylie, Blythewood's
owner, to allow a meeting at the sanitarium
[Greenwhich, CT, where Marty and Grennie were
both still patients]. This was probably the
third AA group, after Akron and New York City."
(p 121)

b.. By late 1939, there was a noon lunch
AA meeting in Greenwich's Bristol Hotel.
(p 125) This could have been a relocation
of the Blythewood meeting after Marty was
discharged.]

c.. The Cleveland meeting, a spin-off from
Akron, was founded in late fall 1939.

d.. That fall of 1939 saw the beginning of
AA's connection to High Watch (Kent, CT).
Presumably, an AA meeting was founded there
to accommodate the alcoholism treatment
program and the AA retreat center. High Watch
could confirm what happened. (pp 125-126)

e.. Also, in late 1939 or very early 1940,
Marty met a newly-sober Sylvia Kaufman in
Chicago. Sylvia founded AA in Chicago. I
assume that was around the same time. Chicago
AA archives should have the info. (p 129)

f.. Probably during 1940, Grennie (Grenville)
Curtis started the first (intentionally) men's
closed AA group (NYC). It disbanded because of
men being called to military duty in WWII.
(p 122)

g.. Sometime around 1943, Marty and her
partner, Priscilla, started the first Cherry
Grove meeting (Fire Is, NY). It mainly served
the large gay/lesbian population. (p 144)
Q: Isn't this history - and of all those early
AA meetings across the country - in the AA
archives?

Finally, apart from all that, Palo Alto, CA's,
first meeting was in 1941. It's still going
strong.

Shalom - Sally

Rev Sally Brown
Board Certified Chaplain
United Church of Christ

Coauthor with David R Brown:
A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann:
The First Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous
http://www.sallyanddavidbrown.com

1470 Sand Hill Rd, 309
Palo Alto, California 94304
Phone/Fax: 650 / 325 / 5258
Email: rev.sally@att.net
(rev.sally at att.net)

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++++Message 5269. . . . . . . . . . . . those coffee pots
From: shakey1aa . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/13/2008 1:16:00 AM

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I searched past posts with no results and was
wondering if anyone in AAHL knows the brand
and model of the coffeepots that Anne Smith
and Lois Wilson had on their tables? I know
that one is at Brown,but am unsure of the
other's location. Anne's appears in AACOA.

Shakey Mike Gwirtz

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++++Message 5270. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Is there something called the
Bill Wilson Yellow Papers?
From: Lauren Lukens . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/12/2008 7:41:00 PM

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The Akron Archives has two of the vitamin B
therapy pamphlets. You can check with Gail
the archivist there.

Laurie

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++++Message 5271. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Oldest AA meeting place
From: Stephen Gentile . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/10/2008 5:23:00 PM

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Church of the Redeemer
26 South Street Morristown New Jersey

November 1940 as per archived Redeemer Pamphlet
from the church.

Sunday night speaker meeting
2nd oldest meeting in New Jersey, oldest in
same location.

Kindest Regards, Steve G.

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++++Message 5272. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Resentment article by clergyman
From: Woodstock . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/11/2008 6:29:00 PM

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My memory says the clergyman was Norman Vincent
Peale and possibly the article came out of the
magazine "Guideposts."

Peace
Jim Sc.
Pensacola, FL

- - - -

From: "brewster bird" <mec569@yahoo.com>
(mec569 at yahoo.com)

Dear Group-

I believe the clergyman was none other than
Norman Vincent Peale - seminarians and other
theologians of the 1950s often commented
that "Peale was apalling, Paul was appealing" -
I researched this myself ten years ago and I
think the reference is in Peale's book "The
Power of Positive Thinking" and is somewhere
in the middle of the text - actually under
the chapter on resentments. Peale does refer
to AA in the book directly with minimal
attribution. The book is still in print I do
believe.

All Best in Recovery,
Brewster B.

- - - -

The original message was #5263 from
"Laurence Holbrook"
<email@LaurenceHolbrook.com>
(email at LaurenceHolbrook.com)

In the Big Book story "Freedom from Bondage,"
starting at the bottom of page 551, Wynn L.
says, "During the day, a friend of mine brought
me some magazines to take to a hospital group
I was interested in. I looked through them.
A banner across one featured an article by a
prominent clergyman in which I caught the word
resentment."

The article said that "if you will ask in
prayer for everything you want for yourself
to be given to them, you will be free."

Any clues as to which magazine, the identity
of the clergyman, or the article itself?

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++++Message 5273. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: The 61 Rules, does a copy exist?
From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/11/2008 4:11:00 AM

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Was there even a "Middleton" group? Was this
perhaps a fictitious group, like "John Doe",
to enable the writer to make a point?

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++++Message 5274. . . . . . . . . . . . Oldest Groups
From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/13/2008 2:04:00 PM

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Hi Sally

The research material I have reflects an earlier start for Cleveland who
should be considered AA's third group. On May 10, 1939 Clarence Snyder
announced to the Akron Group that Cleveland would meet separately at 2345
Stillman Rd, Cleveland Heights in Cleveland at the home of Albert (Abby)and
Grace Goldrick. In the Fall of 1939, Cleveland membership exploded due to
October 1939 Cleveland Plain Dealer editorials by Elrick B Davis. In
membership size, Cleveland dwarfed the other groups for quite some time
after that.

I have a date of April 26, 1939 when Bill and Lois were evicted from their
Clinton St home and I believe meetings were held at Bert Taylors tailor shop
loft for a time after that.

It's only speculation on my part, but Marty's meeting at Blythewood would
likely be the fourth or fifth in terms of primacy (although "AA Comes of
Age" states that in December 1939, Rockland State Hospital near Monsey, NY
became the first mental hospital to have an AA Group (started by Bob V). Dr
Russell E Blaisdell, Superintendent of the hospital, also allowed busloads
of patients to attend meeting in NY and NJ

The info below is transcribed from the first bulletin issued to known
groups/members by Ruth Hock on November 14, 1940. It's of interest because
it precedes the March 1941 Jack Alexander Saturday Evening Post article and
reflects the early groups that were considered well established and those
that were emerging.

Cheers
Arthur


--------

THE ALCOHOLIC FOUNDATION
NATIONAL HEADQUARTERS - ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS

BOX 658 CHURCH STREET ANNEX NEW YORK CITY
#1 A.A. Bulletin 11/14/40

We wish to thank our many friends and correspondents all over the country
for their cooperation in keeping the national headquarters informed of
developments in the various groups. It is through such a central exchange
that vital information and contact points can be brought to the attention of
those who seek the solution to alcoholism which means so much to us.

This bulletin is an effort to develop a mutual idea exchange sheet to
establish a closer feeling of friendship between A.A. groups from the east
coast to the west, and we hope it will prevent the secession from the A.A.
ranks of our San Francisco group who threatened to call themselves
"Dipsomaniacs Incognito" unless they heard from us more frequently. A
bulletin has been contemplated for some time but delayed due to lack of
sufficient personnel and office facilities. We now have at least the
equipment and hope to be able to make this bulletin a periodic spree (not
alcoholic).

This office has in the past year handled over 2000 inquiries answering each
by personal letter. In addition, correspondence is maintained with about 50
centers "bare A.A. work is 1n operation, varying from the solitary efforts
of single isolated A.A. members to groups of 150.

In view of the fact that in April 1939 there were only about 100 A.A.
members, and the fact that there is now a total of approximately 1400, your
efforts and ours have been exceptionally worthwhile. Continued A.A. activity
will moan a great deal not only to each of us as individuals, but also to
the many who are still unaware of the fact that there is an answer to the
alcoholic problem which is practicable on a large scale.

Our correspondence reaches not only the four corners of the U.S. but also
touches Alaska, Africa, England, France and Australia. Although nothing of
consequence has developed as yet in these distant places, nevertheless it is
indicative of the widespread interest in Alcoholics Anonymous, of the far
reaching results already obtained, and the possibilities for the future.
For the general information of all A.A. members, we list below those cities
where there are isolated A.A. members who have recovered either through the
book alone or through brief contact with established centers.

COHOES, N.Y.
BURLINGTON, VERMONT
BUFFALO, N. Y.
BENNINGTONI VERMONT
DENVER, COLORADO
NORFOLK, VIRGINIA
SHELBY, NOHTH CAROLINA
KANSAS CITY, MISOURI
GREENSBORO, NORTH CAROLINA
ST. LOUIS, MISOURI
AIKEN, SOUTH CAROLINA
KNOXVILLE, TENNESSEE
BELLINGHAM, WASHINGTON
EAU CLARE, WISCONSIN
BISMARCK, NORTH DAKOTA
PHOENIX, ARIZONA

There are several "working" A.A. members in each of the following cities
where meetings are in a get together stage.

PITTSBURGH, PA.
WALLINGFORD, VERMONT
BOSTON, MASS.
SAN DIEGO, CALIFORNIA
INDIANAPOLIS, IND.

And following is a list of communities where A.A. work is well established
and weekly meetings are held:

NEW YORK CITY. N.Y
EVANSVILLE, INDIANA
SOUTH ORANGE, N. J.
LITTLLE ROCK, .ARKANSAS
WASHINGTON, D.C.
PHILADELPHIA, PA.
RICHMOND, VA.
BALTIMORE, MD.
DETHOIT, MICHIGAN
WAUNAKEE, WISCONSIN
JACKSON, MICHIGAN
GREENWHICH, CONN.
COLDWATER, MICHIGAN
CLEVELAND, OHIO
CHICAGO, ILLINOIS
AKRON, OHIO
HOUSTON, TEXAS
TOLEDO, OHIO
LOS ANGELES, CALIF.
DAYTON, OHIO
SAN FRANCISCO, CALIF.
YOUNGSTOWN, OHIO

The secretary or correspondent of each group has the name and address of at
least one member in each of the established groups for the use of travelling
or visiting ~members. However, at the request of many of those groups may we
ask that the New York office be used as a clearing house for all
correspondence since but a few local groups are equipped to handle the
correspondence now coming to them from so many different directions. We
shall gladly give full particulars about any of the listed communities upon
request.

We all know that the A.A. solution really works if followed with patience,
honesty and sincerity so we sympathize with the new prospect who said he
certainly DID want to stop drinking but after listening a few minutes to our
A.A. story said "Oh that! - I tried it for two weeks and it doesn't work".

We shall appreciate receiving ideas, suggestions, criticisms, etc. of
general interest for the purpose of this bulletin is to relate the many A.A.
groups in a friendly spirit.
So best regards to all and let us hear from you at any and all times.

[Signed Ruth Hock]
Secretary

P.S.
Since it is not possible at the present time for us to furnish enough copies
for distribution to every A.A. member, perhaps you will find it advisable to
read this copy aloud at a meeting.
----------

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Sally Brown
Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 5:26 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Oldest AA meeting place

Hi, Faithful Folks - Sorry to be so slow in
contributing some info about AA's earlier
meetings. Here are a few things Dave and I
found out when we were researching the Marty
Mann bio:

a.. "The loss of the [Wilson's] Clinton
Street house [c June 1939] meant that the AA
meeting had to find a new home, too. Marty
and Grennie persuaded Anna Wylie, Blythewood's
owner, to allow a meeting at the sanitarium
[Greenwhich, CT, where Marty and Grennie were
both still patients]. This was probably the
third AA group, after Akron and New York City."
(p 121)

b.. By late 1939, there was a noon lunch
AA meeting in Greenwich's Bristol Hotel.
(p 125) This could have been a relocation
of the Blythewood meeting after Marty was
discharged.]

c.. The Cleveland meeting, a spin-off from
Akron, was founded in late fall 1939.

d.. That fall of 1939 saw the beginning of
AA's connection to High Watch (Kent, CT).
Presumably, an AA meeting was founded there
to accommodate the alcoholism treatment
program and the AA retreat center. High Watch
could confirm what happened. (pp 125-126)

e.. Also, in late 1939 or very early 1940,
Marty met a newly-sober Sylvia Kaufman in
Chicago. Sylvia founded AA in Chicago. I
assume that was around the same time. Chicago
AA archives should have the info. (p 129)

f.. Probably during 1940, Grennie (Grenville)
Curtis started the first (intentionally) men's
closed AA group (NYC). It disbanded because of
men being called to military duty in WWII.
(p 122)

g.. Sometime around 1943, Marty and her
partner, Priscilla, started the first Cherry
Grove meeting (Fire Is, NY). It mainly served
the large gay/lesbian population. (p 144)
Q: Isn't this history - and of all those early
AA meetings across the country - in the AA
archives?

Finally, apart from all that, Palo Alto, CA's,
first meeting was in 1941. It's still going
strong.

Shalom - Sally

Rev Sally Brown
Board Certified Chaplain
United Church of Christ

Coauthor with David R Brown:
A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann:
The First Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous
http://www.sallyanddavidbrown.com

1470 Sand Hill Rd, 309
Palo Alto, California 94304
Phone/Fax: 650 / 325 / 5258
Email: rev.sally@att.net
(rev.sally at att.net)

------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

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++++Message 5275. . . . . . . . . . . . Why was "ACE FULL -- SEVEN --
ELEVEN." story omitted ?
From: bigbookken . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/13/2008 2:42:00 PM

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Hello Everyone, and thanks for being here !

Please see photo from the Original Working
Manuscript:

http://www.aaholygrail.com/1.html

Does anyone know who "Del Tryon" (or "Del
Tryor") is and why he thought the publishing
of the Big Book was a "racket" and "withdrew"
it ?

If you have any information, do you also
have a source I can refer to ?

Many thanks,

Ken R.

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++++Message 5276. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Oldest AA meeting place
From: and . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/13/2008 4:10:00 PM

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Here is a picture:

http://www.russianaa-brooklyn.com/images/rsgallery/original/L_066.jpg

Message 5274: "AA Comes of Age" states that
in December 1939, Rockland State Hospital near
Monsey, NY became the first mental hospital
to have an AA Group (started by Bob V). Dr
Russell E Blaisdell, Superintendent of the
hospital, also allowed busloads of patients
to attend meeting in NY and NJ.

Message 2439: Rockland State Hospital in
Rockland County was near Orangeburg, New York.

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++++Message 5277. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Oldest AA meeting place
From: lester112985 . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/14/2008 10:59:00 PM

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Hello Group,

Just a quick note to expand on Steve's reply.
The oldest group in New Jersey is the South
Orange Group which first met on October 22,
1939 at the Field House in South Orange. This
is also the second meeting to be called
Alcoholics Anonymous following Clarence S and
the Cleveland Group.

Love and Service
Lester Gother

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,
Stephen Gentile <sagentile@...> wrote:
>
> Church of the Redeemer
> 26 South Street Morristown New Jersey
>
> November 1940 as per archived Redeemer Pamphlet
> from the church.
>
> Sunday night speaker meeting
> 2nd oldest meeting in New Jersey, oldest in
> same location.
>
> Kindest Regards, Steve G.
>

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++++Message 5278. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Oldest AA meeting place
From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/13/2008 5:17:00 PM

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Am I reading this correctly - "c.. The
Cleveland meeting, a spin-off from Akron,
was founded in late fall 1939." ??????

May 1939, after the Big Book was published was
the start of the Golrick Group (later called
the Cleveland Group) which met at the home
of Albert R. Golrick. (2345 Stillman Road,
Cleveland Hgts). The meeting was called an AA
meeting.

Akron members prior to May 1939 were attending
the Oxford Group and during the Summer of 1939,
Dr. Bob and others were listed on the group
roster for the Golrick/Cleveland Group. It
wasn't until the Fall of 1939 that the Akron
members broke off officially from the Oxford
Group and not the other way around.

How can Cleveland be a spin-off from Akron
when Akron didn't meet as AA until late Fall
of 1939? Was this a typo or just another
continuation of AA Myth and Folklore?

Also, how about the meetings held at Rockland
State Hospital started very early (December
1939) with the help of Dr. Blaisdell (Rockland
Superintendant), Bob Valentine (of Monsey NY)
and Bill Wilson? Bill and Lois lived for a while
in Monsey in Bob Valentine's unheated barn
during one of their homeless episodes. Patients
were bussed to meetings in NYC and South Orange,
New Jersey (meetings started in South Orange
in October 1939)

- - - -

On Fri, 10/10/08, Sally Brown
<rev.sally@att.net> wrote:

> The Cleveland meeting, a spin-off from
> Akron, was founded in late fall 1939.

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++++Message 5279. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: those coffee pots
From: Chris Budnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/13/2008 11:48:00 PM

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The coffee pot at Brown University is a
"Wear-Ever Aluminum Coffee Percolator."

I think the number on the bottom of the pot
reads "N2 5068."

Chris

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++++Message 5280. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Oldest AA meeting place
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/15/2008 12:45:00 PM

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From: "Art Boudreault" <artb@netwiz.net>
(artb at netwiz.net)

Dear AA History Lovers,

Seeing Sally's post reminded me to go to the
chapter in "Journey to Recovery, a Fifty Year
History of Al-Anon in Northern California" that
refers to the earliest AA groups in our area.
The Oakland AA Group formed in April 1941,
followed by several more groups. By September
groups had formed in San Francisco, Sacramento,
San Jose and Palo Alto. In the Oakland Group's
"annual report" they describe electing Pauline G,
a non-alcoholic, as their secretary.

The first big book delivered in Northern
California was sent to Mrs. Kellogg (think
corn flakes) who lived on 17 mile drive in
Monterey and who purchased it for her husband.
From an early history of San Jose Groups, I
recently learned that Mr. Kellogg was one of
the early members of the San Jose group.

Sincerely,
Art Boudreault

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++++Message 5281. . . . . . . . . . . . Envelopes in the BB
From: Mike H . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/16/2008 2:40:00 PM

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I heard that there were some BB's in the early
years that were shipped out with envelopes
attached inside. These envelopes were for
buyers of the BB to 'buy' one for a friend in
need. Any input on this? When, where, which
edition ... ??? Thanks, Mike

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++++Message 5282. . . . . . . . . . . . Chanting at meetings
From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/16/2008 7:05:00 PM

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Over the last several years the chanting of
the last phrases of How It Works at meetings
in this area has become common.

I was first aware of it about five years ago.
I was told at the time it started in treatment
centers and was encouraged by their staff to
demonstrate that the patients were awake and
paying attention.

Is this practice common in other areas? What
is its origin? I have attended meetings in
several areas of the United States and Canada
and have only heard it here.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge, Louisiana

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++++Message 5283. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Why was "ACE FULL -- SEVEN --
ELEVEN." story omitted ?
From: Laurence Holbrook . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/15/2008 1:40:00 PM

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Message #5275 from Ken R.
<bigbookken@yahoo.com>
(bigbookken at yahoo.com)

refers us to the working manuscript of
the Big Book at:

http://www.aaholygrail.com/1.html

which gives a photo of "Personal Stories"
page 62, the beginning of the story entitled
"ACE FULL -- SEVEN -- ELEVEN."

This sheet of paper has an X across the page,
and a handwritten note at the top which says:

"Del Tryon's story -
Thought the book was racket
and so with drew this.
w.a.w."

- - - -

http://silkworth.net/dickb/thefirstforty.html

Richard K., in an attempt to work out which
of the early AA members stayed sober, and
which went back to drinking, gives what he
believed was the person's full first name
and the person's last name (spelled
differently from the handwritten note on
the early draft of the Big Book), but
without giving the source of this informa-
tion:

"N/A Delmar Tyron Akron Success Ace-Full Seven Eleven
(NO- Success)"

- - - -

The Orange Papers site has a PDF of a document
signed by Dr. Bob's daughter, Sue Smith Windows
(February 15, 1918 - February 9, 2002), on
January 7, 1999 (when she was eighty years old)
that gives one version of why his story wasn't
included:

http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-Sue_Smith.pdf

"One of the authors of a personal story that
appeared in the original manuscript (ACE FULL...
SEVEN ELEVEN) from Akron asked that his story
be removed from the book prior to publication
after finding out about Bill's personal
financial aspirations from the sale of the
book. It was revealed that Bill and Ruth Hock
already publicly distributed the multilith
manuscript and sold it for $3.50."

- - - -

Larry H

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++++Message 5284. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Oldest AA meeting place
From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/15/2008 2:40:00 PM

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Oxford Group or no - Akron always has, and
always will be, recognized as AA's first
group. New York was AA's second group.

Akron marks its beginning as occurring on
Independence Day, July 4, 1939 when Bill
Dotson was discharged from the City Hospital
of Akron. In a July 1949 memorial Grapevine
article, for Anne Smith, Bill W wrote that
Anne was “quite literally, the mother of our
first group, Akron Number One” and “In the
full sense of the word she was one of the
founders of AA.”

Both the New York and Akron Groups were
affiliated with the Oxford Group during their
early years. The New York Group separated
from the OG in August 1937.

On May 10, 1939 led by pioneer member Clarence
Snyder the Cleveland, Ohio members announced
to the Akron Group that they would meet
separately from Akron and the Oxford Group
at 2345 Stillman Rd, Cleveland Heights in
Cleveland at the home of Albert (Abby) and
Grace Goldrick. This was AA’s third group.
Clarence S claims that it was the first group
to call itself Alcoholics Anonymous (however,
the term was used a number of times in
correspondence by Bill W almost a year prior
to the founding of the Cleveland group).

In late October 1939 (AA Comes of Age viii
says summer) Akron members of the “alcoholic
squad” withdrew from the Oxford Group and
held meetings at Dr Bob’s house. It was
reputedly a painful separation due to the
great affection the alcoholic members had
toward T Henry and Clarace Williams. The
founding of the Cleveland Group and this
action by the Akron Group ended all outside
affiliation between the AA Fellowship and
the OG or anyone else.

- - - -

MORE ON NEW JERSEY AND BROOKLYN:

AA Comes of Age (pg 11) states that in the
Summer of 1939, Bill W and Hank P attended
the first AA meeting in New Jersey, at Hank's
home in Upper Montclair, New Jersey.

Also Bill W was using the term "Alcoholics
Anonymous" to describe meetings being held at
his home in Brooklyn as early as the spring
of 1938.

- - - -

WE of Alcoholics Anonymous:

The Foreword to the First Edition of the book
"Alcoholics Anonymous" published in April 1939,
begins with the sentence "WE OF Alcoholics
Anonymous, are more than one hundred men and
women who have recovered from a seemingly
hopeless state of mind and body."

The term "Alcoholics Anonymous" was used in the
Big Book to describe the name of the entire
Fellowship. This business of which group was
the first, second or whatever to use the term
"Alcoholics Anonymous" to describe itself as
a group, is contemporary semantic fantasy
posing as AA history.

Cheers
Arthur

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++++Message 5285. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Oldest AA meeting place and
Marty Mann
From: John Barton . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/16/2008 5:42:00 PM

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Question for Sally Brown:

Marty Mann's discharge date and the hotel
meeting which she says was held in Greenwich,
Connecticut, in late 1939.

- - - -

The Cleveland Meeting was on May 11, 1939 and
was the 3rd AA group.

[?? From the moderator: Arthur Sheehan in
Message 5284 gives the date as May 10, 1939 ??]

In June of 39 there was indeed a single meeting
held at Blythewood.

My info has Marty Mann attending the meetings
in Montclair (May and early June) and in South
Orange (June and July) after that.

Sally, do you have Marty's discharge date?

There is no info available that I know of a
meeting in a hotel in Connecticut in 1939.

Thanks John B

- - - -

Message 5268 from Sally Brown
<rev.sally@att.net> says:

Hi, Faithful Folks - Sorry to be so slow in
contributing some info about AA's earlier
meetings. Here are a few things Dave and I
found out when we were researching the Marty
Mann bio:

a.. "The loss of the [Wilson's] Clinton
Street house [c June 1939] meant that the AA
meeting had to find a new home, too. Marty
and Grennie persuaded Anna Wylie, Blythewood's
owner, to allow a meeting at the sanitarium
[Greenwhich, CT, where Marty and Grennie were
both still patients]. This was probably the
third AA group, after Akron and New York City."
(p 121)

b.. By late 1939, there was a noon lunch
AA meeting in Greenwich's Bristol Hotel.
(p 125) This could have been a relocation
of the Blythewood meeting after Marty was
discharged.]

c.. The Cleveland meeting, a spin-off from
Akron, was founded in late fall 1939.

d.. That fall of 1939 saw the beginning of
AA's connection to High Watch (Kent, CT).
Presumably, an AA meeting was founded there
to accommodate the alcoholism treatment
program and the AA retreat center. High Watch
could confirm what happened. (pp 125-126)

e.. Also, in late 1939 or very early 1940,
Marty met a newly-sober Sylvia Kaufman in
Chicago. Sylvia founded AA in Chicago. I
assume that was around the same time. Chicago
AA archives should have the info. (p 129)

f.. Probably during 1940, Grennie (Grenville)
Curtis started the first (intentionally) men's
closed AA group (NYC). It disbanded because of
men being called to military duty in WWII.
(p 122)

g.. Sometime around 1943, Marty and her
partner, Priscilla, started the first Cherry
Grove meeting (Fire Is, NY). It mainly served
the large gay/lesbian population. (p 144)
Q: Isn't this history - and of all those early
AA meetings across the country - in the AA
archives?

Finally, apart from all that, Palo Alto, CA's,
first meeting was in 1941. It's still going
strong.

Shalom - Sally

Rev Sally Brown
Board Certified Chaplain
United Church of Christ

Coauthor with David R Brown:
A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann:
The First Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous
http://www.sallyand davidbrown. com

1470 Sand Hill Rd, 309
Palo Alto, California 94304
Phone/Fax: 650 / 325 / 5258
Email: rev.sally@att. net
(rev.sally at att.net)

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++++Message 5286. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Oldest AA meeting place: New
Jersey
From: John Barton . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/16/2008 5:57:00 PM

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Hi All,

Thanks Lester,

This was actually known as the New Jersey Group
and first met on May 14, 1939 at Hank P's house
in Montclair. When Hank and Kathleen broke up
in June (over the Ruth Hock affair) this
meeting was moved to the Hartford Road South
Orange home of Herb D.

Herb was a slipper who had been around since
1935 (see Pass it On p.162).

The meetings continued on Hartford Road until
October when Herb and Gordon M. ( see Pass It
On p.247) secured the space at the South Orange
Community Center as you correctly point out.
This group operated under the name of AA of
New Jersey Incorporated for several years.
As the group broke up into many smaller groups
(it was the mother group of New Jersey) it
changed its name to the South Orange Group and
disolved its incorporation (1944 or 45 I think).

This is according to my research AA group #4,
after Brooklyn, Akron and Cleveland. A meeting
at a particular spot of the "regulars" such
as Blythewood, does not constitute a new group.
My research also shows that the Oct 22, 1939
meeting in South Orange was the first AA
meeting in a public place. Steinway Hall in
Manhattan came a few months after.

Best Regards,

John B

Big Book Study Group of South Orange
Area 44 History & Archives Committee

--- On Wed, 10/15/08, lester112985 <lgother@optonline.net> wrote:

From: lester112985 <lgother@optonline.net>
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Oldest AA meeting place
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, October 15, 2008, 2:59 AM

Hello Group,

Just a quick note to expand on Steve's reply.
The oldest group in New Jersey is the South
Orange Group which first met on October 22,
1939 at the Field House in South Orange. This
is also the second meeting to be called
Alcoholics Anonymous following Clarence S and
the Cleveland Group.

Love and Service
Lester Gother

--- In AAHistoryLovers@ yahoogroups. com,
Stephen Gentile <sagentile@. ..> wrote:
>
> Church of the Redeemer
> 26 South Street Morristown New Jersey
>
> November 1940 as per archived Redeemer Pamphlet
> from the church.
>
> Sunday night speaker meeting
> 2nd oldest meeting in New Jersey, oldest in
> same location.
>
> Kindest Regards, Steve G.
>

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++++Message 5287. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Oldest AA meeting place: Chicago
and High Watch
From: rick tompkins . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/16/2008 12:33:00 AM

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Does anyone know what location holds the
longevity record for holding AA meetings?

- - - -

CHICAGO AREA:

Some of the recent posts seemed to have strayed
from this first question with fascinating
details on the "first" AA meetings.

For me, the most fascinating are the reports
on specific sites of longtime-meeting AA groups.

From a recent report here, one AA Group in
the city of McHenry, Illinois, claims 61 years
but wasn't connected to AA as a whole until
1949.

Here's an explanation: the Chicago Group, from
1939 until 1952, kept its own records of
registered groups and only reported totals
(membership and the number of its groups) for
the semi-annual A.A. Directories that our
"headquarters" Alcoholic Foundation printed.
The McHenry group was part of a cluster of
the Fox Valley Groups that were initially
aligned with Chicago A.A., so the 61 years
claim would be valid in the light of close
correspondence with the Chicago Central Office.

Still, the Fox Valley Groups separately
registered its groups in three towns with
NYC's "headquarters" 62 years ago in early
1946 with the cities of Aurora, Elgin, and
Crystal Lake (Crystal Lake is McHenry's
neighboring town). Obviously "AA as a whole"
extended farther than Chicago groups when
they realized they should register with the
Alcoholic Foundation in NYC.

- - - -

HIGH WATCH FARM:

It appears to me, from Sally's 10/13 post,
that the fall of 1939 saw High Watch Farm in
Connecticut starting its first AA meetings
on-site, and High Watch Farm remains in
operation today. A question for the AA Archives
at GSO would be exactly when the meeting site
was registered. This site could be AA's
"location that holds the longevity record for
holding AA meetings."

Rick, Illinois

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++++Message 5288. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Oldest AA meeting place: Boston
From: JNP in Maine . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/15/2008 4:36:00 PM

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Any record of early meetings in Boston,
Massachusetts?

- - - -

From the moderator:

See Richard M. Dubiel, The Road to Fellowship:
The Role of the Emmanuel Movement and the
Jacoby Club in the Development of Alcoholics
Anonymous:

http://hindsfoot.org/kDub1.html

http://hindsfoot.org/kDub2.html

which is listed in Bishop's list of
the top fifty books on AA history:

http://hindsfoot.org/fiftybk.html

- - - -

(p. xii) <<The Jacoby Club served to
nurture the Boston A.A. during the chapter’s
first years.>>

(p. 86) <<“1,400 Rescued From Drink by Jacoby
Club”; its subheadline read: “Isn’t This Some
Record, Right Here in Boston? Brotherly Love a
Winner.” The lead continued the tone, with a
reference to Billy Sunday. “How’s this Rev.
William Ashley Sunday? Here’s the Jacoby Club,
right here in Boston, which has rescued 1,400
men from the grip of John Barleycorn in seven
years! There’s hitting the trail in earnest --
1,400 trail hitters and all like Billy Sunday,
fighting the ‘booze’ curse with the bitterness
that comes with the experience of the
‘down-and-outer’” (Boston American, Sunday,
n.d., Nov. 1916).>>

(pp. 109-110) <<During 1940 and 1941, several
events changed the course of both the Jacoby
Club and Alcoholics Anonymous. Jack Alexander’s
Saturday Evening Post article in March 1941
helped spur the growth of A.A. nationwide
as well as in the Boston area. The Jacoby Club,
on the other hand, underwent a profound
reorganization. By July 16, 1942, a swift
succession of events resulted in the resigna-
tion of its acting executive secretary and
the essential end of alcoholism treatment by
the Jacoby Club.>>

(p. 114) <<this was the exact period (March
through June of 1941) when Hatlestad was
actively recruiting alcoholics in the Boston
area into what was in fact starting to become
A.A. By March of 1941, Burt C. and Paddy were
conducting an A.A. meeting on Wednesday nights
at the Jacoby Club’s 115 Newbury Street address
with Hatlestad’s eager backing, and until early
1942, the Boston A.A. group and the Jacoby Club
were to some degree intertwined with one
another and attempting to work together
cooperatively.>>

(p. 119) <<A month before Cobb recommended he
be dismissed, Lawrence Hatlestad submitted a
report to the Club covering May 1, 1941–May 1,
1942. Unlike his earlier report to Cobb,
Hatlestad here reveals an approach to treating
alcoholics that has startling similarities to
those adopted by Alcoholics Anonymous. (It
should be remembered that the newly formed
Boston A.A. group began holding its first
meetings at the Jacoby Club in March of
1941.)>>

(pp. 119-120) <<Hatlestad notes that the first
year of reorganization was largely involved
with the establishment of A.A. in Boston. This
was facilitated, he claimed, largely through
his own work with Ruth Hock, the A.A. secretary
in New York. Hatlestad apparently first wrote
to Hock in 1940 with “favorable remarks
regarding the book ‘Alcoholics Anonymous.’”
Hock responded with a description of the A.A.
organization, adding that “only within the last
month … a beginning has been made in Boston.”
She mentions that a Mr. Joseph Lyons had
visited the New York office and was now
attempting to organize a group in Boston.
The hope was that Hatlestad would get in
touch with him. As will be discussed later,
the Jacoby Club essentially nurtured A.A. in
Boston at the beginning, with the group
locating in the Jacoby Club itself. In June
1941, the two groups agreed that they ought
to be separate organizations. Nonetheless,
twelve members of the group remained in the
Jacoby Club, which then continued its program
of treatment.>>

(p. 124) <<A glut of articles in 1940 cele-
brated the new-found sobriety of Rollie
Hemsley, the Cleveland Indians baseball
player who became well known as famed pitcher
Bob Feller’s favorite catcher.>>
<<Inquiries as to the whereabouts of A.A.
activity were directed to the New York office,
the visible center of A.A. activity. When
inquiries were made by people who lived in
Boston, the A.A. office in New York at first
directed them, not surprisingly, to the Jacoby
Club. As pointed out earlier, Lawrence
Hatlestad had made the acquaintance of Ruth
Hock, the A.A. secretary in New York, by
mid-1940. Whatever one may say of Mr. Hatlestad,
he had clearly established himself as a central
actor in “alcoholic work” in Boston. So with
the New York headquarters of Alcoholics
Anonymous sending Boston-area alcoholics to
the Jacoby Club for help, the initial effect
of the publicity over the new A.A. movement
was to strengthen the Jacoby Club, not diminish
its influence and public regard.>>

(pp. 125-126) <<In addition to Hatlestad’s
contacts with the New York group, Paddy
Keegan, one of the two founders of A.A. in

Boston, decided to link his newly formed
Boston A.A. group to the Jacoby Club’s
already sucessful program for helping
alcoholics in that city. According to the
history of early A.A. in Boston written later
on by the Boston A.A. Central Service
Committee (CSC), Paddy ventured to New York
and met Marty Mann, one of the first women in
the program, who apparently helped Paddy get
sober in the summer of 1940. “By October Paddy
was back in his home town of Boston,” knowing
about A.A. but without a meeting to attend.
The CSC history states that “somehow Paddy
found out about a place called the Jacoby Club.”
He met Hatlestad and worked with him “from
October until the first of November, when
another alcoholic named Burt C. came to the
Jacoby Club looking for help. Doctor Hatlestad
put Paddy and Burt together, and they started
to help each other.” Of course, if Paddy asked
anyone in the New York A.A. office about a place
to go in Boston alcohol treatment, Hatlestad’s
name would have come up. Given its ambiance,
self-help orientation, and nondenominational
orientation, it was the clear choice over a
hospital or mission house. Paddy was unable to
stay sober for long periods of time, but he did
manage to pass on the message of A.A. Whatever
his success or lack of it on the personal level,
Paddy and Burt C. held the first Boston meeting
of Alcoholics Anonymous on Wednesday, November
13, 1940, “both men being sober.” It is not
known how many people attended the first
meeting, nor if they were sober. Burt C.
remained sober “from the first meeting until
he died.” Such was not Paddy’s fate. He
apparently slipped repeatedly and “finally
died of alcoholism.” According to the Boston
group’s history and at least one letter from
Ruth Hock, Paddy was a pleasant fellow when
sober and did much to carry the A.A. message
to New England. When inquiries came to Boston
concerning the whereabouts of A.A. following
the Jack Alexander article of March 1, 1941,
it was Hatlestad, Burt C., and Paddy Keegan
who made the contacts. Paddy’s picture currently
graces the Central Service Committee office in
Boston.>>

(p. 126) <<The first A.A. meetings were held
irregularly, but by March of 1941, Burt C. and
Paddy had settled on Wednesday nights at the
Jacoby Club’s 115 Newbury Street address for
the official weekly group meeting. The Boston
group’s history adds that there were then
about four or five alcoholics in the group.
The history of A.A. and its relationship to
the Jacoby Club becomes a bit cloudy at this
point. The Jacoby Club archival material
supports two basic facts: A.A. and the Jacoby
Club were intertwined for a period and then
separated. The Boston A.A. group met at the
Jacoby Club facilities and was melded with
the Club, according to Ernest Jacoby, “for
quite a while.” But he adds, “Gradually,
however, Alcoholics became independent and I
think there was some jealousy on Hatlestad’s
part.”>>

(p. 127) <<The clear split at the financial
level occurred when the Jacoby Club wrote a
letter to Alcoholics Anonymous on May 31, 1941,
informing the group that it “regretfully
recommends that the management of each group
be entirely separate and distinct from that
of the other.” The letter cited two basic
differences. First, the Jacoby Club was a
charitable institution, “receiving money from
and making appeals to the public.” A.A., being
self-supporting, did not (a self-imposed rule
which would later become A.A.’s Seventh
Tradition). Second, the Jacoby Club employed
“a salaried man who is not an alcoholic”
(Hatlestad), whereas A.A. was operated without
paid professionals (the rule which was later
formalized in A.A.’s Eighth Tradition). It is
interesting to note that already as early as
1941, A.A. members were assuming the absolute
necessity of certain organizational principles
which would later be formalized in the Twelve
Traditions in 1945-6. Although the Jacoby Club
letter made it clear that they no longer wanted
the A.A. people telling them how to manage
their business, nonetheless it was cordial in
tone, including an offer to continue allowing
A.A. the use of Jacoby Club rooms. The letter
ended with a note of thanks to A.A. “for the
opportunity [the Jacoby Club] has been given to
contribute its small share to their work.”
According to the Boston A.A. Central Service
Committee, A.A. moved to larger quarters at
123 Newbury Street in June of 1941. The nature
of the relationship between A.A. and the Club
at this point is not entirely clear. Although
a basic organizational and financial split is
documented in the May 31 letter, the CSC
history states that A.A. was “still centered at
the Jacoby Club. They were not strong enough to
be on their own yet.” Supporting this, the
May 31 letter did refer to the willingness of
the Club to allow A.A. to continue to use its
rooms.>>

(pp. 127-128) <<Since the Hatlestad resignation
was not received until July 16, 1942, it is
reasonable to assume that some ties between
the two groups remained during this 1941–1942
period. This situation lasted until A.A.
relocated at 306 Newbury Street in 1942. At
this point they had found a home and were
unquestionably independent. An A.A. group
remained at this Newbury Street address for
over twenty years. But between 1942 and
September 1945, additional groups were also
formed, so that A.A. quickly grew to have
thirteen meetings in all, scattered over
various parts of the immediate Boston area.
Richmond Walker, author of Twenty-Four Hours a
Day, an early Boston A.A. member about whom we
shall speak more later, proposed the establish-
ment of a Boston Central Committee to better
coordinate the activities of these thirteen
meetings in a letter to the group on 25 October
1945.>>

(pp. 128-129) <<Looking at the geography
involved provides one good way of visualizing
the continually changing relationships between
the organizations during this period. Emmanuel
Episcopal Church is located in the heart of
downtown Boston at 15 Newbury Street, right
where the street ends at the green lawns and
colorful flower beds of the Boston Public Garden
with its lake and swan boats, with (immediately
to the east of that) Boston Common, the grassy
knoll where the early colonists used to pasture
their milk cows. In March 1941, the little
Boston A.A. group had started meeting every
Wednesday night at the Jacoby Club’s place at
115 Newbury Street, which was only two city
blocks west of the church where the Emmanuel
Movement had begun. Everything was still
contained within the same tight little geo-
graphical area. At the psychological level,
Emmanuel Church, the Jacoby Club, and the A.A.
group were part of the same small local
neighborhood. A.A.’s first move, in June 1941,
was only to 123 Newbury Street, on the same
street and at the same end of the block as the
Jacoby Club meeting place. They were still
practically next-door neighbors, and could wave
hello to one another as they entered their
separate doors. But in 1942, A.A. moved four
blocks west, to 306 Newbury Street, symbol-
izing a much greater psychological distancing
of themselves from the Jacoby Club. From that
point on, as additional A.A. groups were
rapidly formed in other parts of the city, the
original close linkage between Boston A.A. and
the Jacoby Club was quickly lost. There were
similarities to the process by which Akron,
Cleveland, and New York A.A. had gradually
broken their originally tight associations with
the Oxford Group, a process which had also taken
place in stages.>>

(pp. 129-130) <<The publication of Jack
Alexander’s famous March 1, 1941, Saturday
Evening Post article was a pivotal event in
the Jacoby Club-A.A. relationship.>>
<<According to the CSC history, the New York
office received 63 requests for information on
A.A. in the Boston area by April 1941. These
were all answered by either the secretary Ruth
Hock or Bill Wilson himself. The names were
then forwarded to Hatlestad, and he, Paddy,
and Burt C. began making the contacts.
Apparently the letters sent back from New
York to these Bostonians included Hatlestad’s
name and address, because many of these 63
people then wrote letters to him asking for
help or information.>>

(pp. 132-135) BOSTON'S INFLUENCE ON A.A.
IN THE REST OF THE COUNTRY: RICHMOND WALKER'S
BOOK "TWENTY-FOUR HOURS A DAY"

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++++Message 5289. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: those coffee pots
From: Chris Budnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/15/2008 5:49:00 PM

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I magnified the image after receiving an
email from George about the number. Magnified,
it reads "No 5063" on the bottom of the
coffee pot.

Chris

- - - -

Original message 5279 from Chris Budnick
<cbudnick@nc.rr.com> (cbudnick at nc.rr.com)

> The coffee pot at Brown University is a
> "Wear-Ever Aluminum Coffee Percolator."
> I think the number on the bottom of the pot
> reads "N2 5068."

- - - -

From: "jfk92452000" <jfk92452000@yahoo.com>
(jfk92452000 at yahoo.com)

That is funny. When I saw this post I went
home to check the pot I use for camping. I got
it years ago from my boss's mothers house when
she passed away. I have seen the pictures of
Dr. Bob's pot and thought it looked similar.
I went home a couple of days ago and mine is
an Ever Wear Aluminum, Patent 1927. I love it
for camping because of its wide base and it
makes great Starbucks in the woods. I have
been using it for 15 years as a Scout Leader
and it helps me remember First Things First!
I am so grateful to AA as my service to our
youth would never have been possible otherwise.

- - - -

From the moderator:

According to Google, the famous brand of
aluminum coffee pot from that period of
history, which is now a collector's
item, is "Wear Ever," not "Ever Wear."

Just a minor note, but important if you're
trying to look it up on the internet or
find one in a historical museum of everyday
life.

Glenn C.

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++++Message 5290. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Chanting at meetings
From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/19/2008 3:10:00 AM

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Message 5282 from Tom Hickcox
<cometkazie1@cox.net>
(cometkazie1 at cox.net)

> Over the last several years the chanting of
< the last phrases of How It Works at meetings
> in this area has become common.
>
> Is this practice common in other areas? What
> is its origin? I have attended meetings in
> several areas of the United States and Canada
> and have only heard it here.
>
> Tommy H in Baton Rouge, Louisiana

- - - -

Sadly this virus has contaminated meeting in
the UK too (and no doubt elsewhere); but since
this site is about elucidation rather than
condemnation, it would be good, as Tommy asks,
to have some information about how and why it
(chanting) started. Surely it didn't happen
in meetings in Akron and New York in the
early days?

Laurie A.

- - - -

From: Shakey1aa@aol.com (Shakey1aa at aol.com)

No chanting in Philadelphia, Eastern
Pennsylvania meetings. When reading the
promises "We think not" is spoken by all.

Shakey Mike Gwirtz
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

- - - -

From: bsdds@comcast.net (bsdds at comcast.net)

We did it in West Texas at a particular club
where "C. God could and would if He were
sought." The A. and B. portions are not
repeated, however. Altho I had never heard
that anywhere else and it is not done in the
meetings I attend here in Virginia, I
personally, like it, but I had never heard
the origin.

- - - -

From: "Bahh" <jongunnar@kbsu.tv>
(jongunnar at kbsu.tv)

I have seen this in some meetings in:

Iceland
England
Minnesota
Fargo North Dakota
Las Vegas
New Orleans

Different versions of it but some crowd parti-
cipation at all of them.

JG
New Orleans

- - - -

From: "Murray Eaton" <meaton1287@rogers.com>
(meaton1287 at rogers.com)

Chanting has become a disgusting practice here
in the Toronto area too. It has come into AA
from the NA circle. The same as the holding of
hands at the end of our saying the Lord's
Prayer here and some people doing some idiotic
recitical of a "It works if you work it and
you're worth it...blah blah blah....." and
they won't let go of your hand as they sway
back and forth. It's become a cloying ritual-
istic fetish filled type of AA that you begin
to understand why newcomers don't want to
come back to. After 30 years, I'm glad I don't
have to try and get sober again.

- - - -

From: "stevec012000"
<steven.calderbank@verizon.net>
(steven.calderbank at verizon.net)

I got sober in the shadow of Father Martin's
Ashley in Maryland. Chanting was not the only
thing they were doing in 1989. They used to
shout back replies to How it Works:

"What's the Point?" the crowd would say
They would yell out the ABC's before the reader
would read each one.

This stopped there, but I still see it done
in other places.

- - - -

From: denezmcd@aol.com (denezmcd at aol.com)

It's common in SouthEast Texas

Dennis McD

- - - -

From: "CloydG" <cloydg449@sbcglobal.net>
(cloydg449 at sbcglobal.net)

It happens here in Bakersfield, California, too!

Clyde G.

- - - -

From: "Chuck Parkhurst" <ineedpage63@cox.net>
(ineedpage63 at cox.net)

The last line of the "A, B, C's," "God could
and would, if he were sought," is commonly
"chanted" at almost every AA meetings in the
Phoenix area.

In Service with Gratitude,

Chuck Parkhurst

- - - -

From: "Bill Futral" <bfutral@gmail.com>
(bfutral at gmail.com)

My understanding of this after 20 plus years
is that it started in NA and has now moved to
AA. You are right in that it comes I believe
from treatment centers. I have found it
upsetting to me as it appears to be from
another 12 step program. I even said in my
home group when reading How It Works that I
didn't need any help with the last sentence.
Since then I have become a little more
tolerant. Would love input from others about
this as well.

regards,

Bill

- - - -

From: "Hugh M" <humbc@shaw.ca>
(humbc at shaw.ca)

It is not a practice in the south-eastern part
of British Columbia. I have been to meetings
across Canada and have never heard it. I might
expect it in California where people are
thanked for their "share", often with clapping.

Hugh (a lurker in the West Kootenays of BC)

- - - -

From: "Elisabeth" <dunnelisabeth@comcast.net>
(dunnelisabeth at comcast.net)

Here is Seattle/Auburn area is it getting
increasingly more common, but more so the
"We think not" part when we read the
promises. I know that it irks some of the
oldtimers here.

- - - -

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++++Message 5291. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Why was "ACE FULL -- SEVEN --
ELEVEN." story omitted ?
From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/18/2008 6:21:00 PM

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The $3.50 for the manuscript included the
promise of a copy of the Big Book when it
was published, I believe.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

- - - -

Laurence Holbrook wrote about the document
signed by Dr. Bob's daughter which is given
in the Orange Papers, which says:
>
>"One of the authors of a personal story that
>appeared in the original manuscript (ACE FULL...
>SEVEN ELEVEN) from Akron asked that his story
>be removed from the book prior to publication
>after finding out about Bill's personal
>financial aspirations from the sale of the
>book. It was revealed that Bill and Ruth Hock
>already publicly distributed the multilith
>manuscript and sold it for $3.50."
>
> http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-Sue_Smith.pdf

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++++Message 5292. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Oldest AA meeting place: New
Jersey
From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/18/2008 5:51:00 PM

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Barefoot Bill and I met with someone who was
at either the first or one of the first South
Orange meetings. He was there as a child when
his mother was checking out AA for his father
who was a drunk at that time. This guy's
father went on to become a Trustee and drew up
the incorporation papers of the Grapevine and
brought his son to meetings at the original
clubhouse with Bill and Lois; and he and his
family went quite often to Monsey, New York,
to spend time with Bob V. who helped start
the Rockland Hospital Group and with whom Bill
and Lois lived in their barn. Lots of
interesting history.

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++++Message 5293. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Oldest AA meeting place: Akron
From: Russ Stewart . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/18/2008 7:26:00 PM

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typo Arthur?

Wasn't Bill Dotson released in 1935?

- - - -

Message 5284 from "Arthur S"
<ArtSheehan@msn.com>
(ArtSheehan at msn.com)

Akron marks its beginning as occurring on
Independence Day, July 4, 1939 when Bill
Dotson was discharged from the City Hospital
of Akron. In a July 1949 memorial Grapevine
article, for Anne Smith, Bill W wrote that
Anne was “quite literally, the mother of our
first group, Akron Number One” and “In the
full sense of the word she was one of the
founders of AA.”

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++++Message 5294. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Oldest AA meeting place:
Cleveland
From: John Barton . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/18/2008 11:14:00 PM

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They announced the new meeting to the Akron
group on May 10 saying that tomorrow night
(May 11) we meet as Alcoholics Anonymous in
Cleveland.

Regards

- - - -

Message 5285 from John Barton <jax760@yahoo.com>
(jax760 at yahoo.com) said:

The Cleveland Meeting was on May 11, 1939 and
was the 3rd AA group.

[?? From the moderator: Arthur Sheehan
in Message 5284 gives the date as May
10, 1939 ??]

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++++Message 5295. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Oldest AA meeting place: Akron
and Cleveland
From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/18/2008 11:53:00 PM

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Hi - one typo and a slight correction

- - - -

This sentence should have read:

Akron marks its beginning as occurring on
Independence Day, July 4, 1935 when Bill
Dotson was discharged from the City Hospital
of Akron.

- - - -

May 10, 1939 was given by me as the date of
the announcement by Clarence S of Cleveland's
separation from Akron and the Oxford Group.

"Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers" gives the
impression that the announcement occurred
earlier than this but doesn't give a specific
date.

Mitchell K's "How It Worked" gives May 10, 1939
as the date of the announcement by Clarence S
(to the Akron folks) and May 11, 1939 as the
date of Cleveland's first meeting.

I would presume Mitchell's work to be authori-
tative on the matter. "Dr Bob and the Good
Oldtimers" also gives May 11, 1939 as the
date of Cleveland's first meeting.

Arthur

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++++Message 5296. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Oldest AA meeting place: Marty
Mann, C;leveland
From: Sally Brown . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/19/2008 12:43:00 AM

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Hi, John - Marty's discharge date was Sept
1939. We don't know the exact date because
Blythewood's records no longer exist, as far
as we could determine, and Marty didn't
specify beyond "15 months after admission
(end of June 1938)." Her discharge was
probably early in Sept, however, since other
documented adventures of hers followed during
the month.

The identification of Blythewood Sanitarium as
the probable site of AA's third meeting came
from Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age (bottom
of p 18). The date could have been anywhere
between April 11, 1939, when Marty went to her
first AA meeting, and early September, when
she was discharged. I didn't know that there
was only one meeting held there, but I'm not
surprised. Do you know Art's source? AA
Archives?

We don't know anything about the establishment
of the first Cleveland meeting since we didn't
follow a lot of these interesting details in
our research. My impression at the time, though,
was that while the Cleveland folks had
certainly been energetically reaching out to
their own community during the spring of 1939,
a meeting didn't actually coalesce until the
summer of 1939, the date given by Bill Wilson
in AA Comes of Age (top of p 20).

Sorry not to be of more help. Happy hunting!

Shalom - Sally

- - - -

Hi, Mitchell - My apologies for being slow
in replying. By now you will have seen my
response to John. I hope it clarifies at least
somewhat my slangy, rather superficial
description of the relationship between the
founding of Cleveland AA and Akron. Serves
me right for spouting off about details I'm
not an expert on.

Shalom - Sally

- - - -

Rev Sally Brown
Board Certified Chaplain
United Church of Christ

Coauthor with David R Brown:
A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann:
The First Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous
http://www.sallyanddavidbrown.com

1470 Sand Hill Rd, 309
Palo Alto, California 94304
Phone/Fax: 650 / 325 / 5258
Email: rev.sally@att.net
(rev.sally at att.net)

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++++Message 5297. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: those coffee pots
From: mike . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/20/2008 9:58:00 PM

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2 photos of the coffee pots in Dr. Bobs house
- I posted them on our group website:

http://www.theprimarypurposegroup.com/coffeepots.htm

mike

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++++Message 5298. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill W. and Time magazine
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/22/2008 11:34:00 AM

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From: "kodom2545" <kodom2545@yahoo.com>
(kodom2545 at yahoo.com)

I heard on a tape that Bill Wilson was
nominated for Time Man of the Year, and also
that he was nominated for a Nobel Prize.
The speaker said that he turned down both.
Is there any historical record for this or
is it just a legend?

God Bless,
Kyle

- - - -

From the moderator:

AAHistoryLovers message 1739 from Nancy Olson
says that on April 30, 1960 Bill Wilson
refused to be on the cover of Time Magazine.

Susan Cheever, My Name Is Bill, says on
p. 191 that:

"By the time he wrote to Mark Whalon about
turning down the Yale degree, Bill understood
the principle of anonymity in a new way.
Later he declined to be on the cover of Time
magazine, even, as the editors suggested,
with his back to the camera. He also turned
down at least six other honorary degrees and
a number of overtures from the Nobel Prize
Committee."

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

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++++Message 5299. . . . . . . . . . . . Sample of Herb D''s handwriting?
From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/19/2008 5:19:00 PM

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Does anyone in area 44, northern New Jersey,
or elsewhere, have any handwriting by Herb D?

Can you send me a sample?

Shakey Mike Gwirtz
<Shakey1aa@aol.com>
(Shakey1aa at aol.com)

- - - -

Message 5286 from John Barton
<jax760@yahoo.com> (jax760 at yahoo.com)

Re: Oldest AA meeting place: New Jersey

... the New Jersey Group ...
first met on May 14, 1939 at Hank P's house
in Montclair. When Hank and Kathleen broke up
in June (over the Ruth Hock affair) this
meeting was moved to the Hartford Road South
Orange home of Herb D.

Herb was a slipper who had been around since
1935 (see Pass it On p.162).

The meetings continued on Hartford Road until
October when Herb and Gordon M. ( see Pass It
On p.247) secured the space at the South Orange
Community Center as you correctly point out.
This group operated under the name of AA of
New Jersey Incorporated for several years.
As the group broke up into many smaller groups
(it was the mother group of New Jersey) it
changed its name to the South Orange Group and
disolved its incorporation (1944 or 45 I think).

This is according to my research AA group #4,
after Brooklyn, Akron and Cleveland.

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++++Message 5300. . . . . . . . . . . . How early AA meetings were held in
Akron and Cleveland
From: mdingle76 . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/20/2008 7:55:00 PM

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After Tom P. Jr. wrote Gresham's Law and
Alcoholics Anonymous (3 ways to practice the
12 Step Program) he wrote Uses and Abuses of
Anonymity (3 ways to be anonymous). The
beginning of the article starts out with an
interview with Bob Evans (AA #11) whose
sponsor was Dr. Bob and who was a member of
the King School AA group. I wanted to share
the interview part of the article with the
group because it relates to both the recent
topics of chanting in AA meetings and more
importantly about the oldest of AA meetings:

Shortly before his death in 1984, Bob E.
shared with some members of the Upstate Group
of All Addicts Anonymous, the following
recollection of what AA was like when he first
joined:

<http://www.alladdictsanonymous.org/articles_anonymous.htm>

I never led meetings (neither did Dr. Bob) or
talked into a microphone. Nobody led our
meetings in the very early days. We all just
sat around in a circle. After the opening
prayer and a short text from the Bible, we had
quiet time, silently praying for guidance
about what to say. Then each person in turn
said something, asking for any help he wanted,
bringing up anything that was troubling him or
just whatever was on his mind. After everyone
was through, there were announcements and we
held hands and said the Lord's Prayer. There
was no clapping. At that kind of a meeting,
clapping would have seen out of place.

There was no levity either. We all had our
sense of humor, but for us recovery was a
life-and-death matter. We were all businessmen,
but we had reached our bottom and wanted to
restore ourselves to our previous place in
business and society.

For the first five years we met in someone's
home every night. It was serious business,
and we hung on to each other for dear life.
We could not afford any failures and so we
grew very slowly at first. But we proved that
an alcoholic on this program can help another
alcoholic as no one else can.

Many AA meetings are very different now, but
in the beginning it was absolutely necessary
for us to be strict and serious. That is the
way Dr. Bob was, gruff and tough. He always
put the program on a take-it-or-leave-it basis.
Dr. Bob and his wife Annie were both wonderful
people. (Annie died in 1949. Bob died in 1950
of cancer. He knew for years that he had it.)
He was a great student of the Bible, which he
read every night till the wee hours. In that
first group, Dr. Bob selected the readings and
made all the appointments and all the major
decisions. (I was the first secretary of the
group and the following year became chairman.)
Everyone had to make a complete surrender to
join in the first place, and so we had no
reservations; we worked the whole program,
100 percent.

Great emphasis was laid on the daily plan of
checking ourselves on the Four Absolutes:
absolute honesty, absolute purity, absolute
unselfishness, and absolute love. The Twelve
Steps came from the Absolutes. (The Four
Absolutes are very popular to this day in
Akron AA. They are mentioned more often than
the steps.)

We did not tell our drinking histories at
the meetings back then. We did not need to.
A man's sponsor and Dr. Bob knew the details.
Frankly, we did not think it was anybody
else's business. We were anonymous and so was
our life. Besides, we already knew how to
drink. What we wanted to learn was how to get
sober and stay sober.

Bill Wilson was in favor of having at least
fifty percent of an AA member's talk at a
meeting consist of "qualifying" or telling the
story of how he became an alcoholic. Bill
himself had a warm, friendly disposition, and
this idea of his did attract people and enable
the movement to grow to a size where it had
helped thousands of people all over the world.
For that we must be grateful.

But when the "qualifying" business first
began, it took some getting used to on our
part. I remember one time when we were
meeting at King School; some people came in
from Cleveland, and most of the qualifying
they did was really very bad. They clapped and
made a lot of noise. To us it seemed strange
and offensive. Gradually we opened up under
Bill's persuasive influence. But we still did
not care for it when people would get carried
away by their own voice and make their stories
too sensational and repulsive.

When Alcoholics Anonymous, the AA Big Book,
was printed, we had no money to get the books
out of the warehouse in New York. Jack
Alexander's article in the Saturday Evening
Post (March 1941) got the Big Book into
circulation in a hurry, and that was when
the term Alcoholics Anonymous became the
accepted name for the movement. Up till
then we had simply been called "a Christian
fellowship."

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++++Message 5301. . . . . . . . . . . . Early AA in the greater
Akron/Cleveland area
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/22/2008 12:48:00 PM

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Sgt. Bill Swegan, On the Military Firing Line
in the Alcoholism Treatment Program

http://hindsfoot.org/kBS1.html

Bill was born in Niles, Ohio, and made his
first attempt to get sober in AA in nearby
Warren, Ohio in 1946. Niles and Warren are
only 48 miles from Akron and 60 miles from
Cleveland, so we are talking about the same
part of northeastern Ohio. But the first AA
group in Warren was not a very good one.

(We're talking about back in 1946, not now.)

The authoritarianism, the lack of sympathy
and tolerance, and the Bible pounding back in
1946 were a symptom in this case of a small
group of alcoholics who were not working the
steps, who were miserable and unhappy people,
and who were only staying sober themselves by
the skins of their teeth.

Early AA was just like modern AA. Some AA
meetings were a whole lot better and more
effective than others, even in the same part
of the country.

(Bill finally got permanently sober on July 5,
1948 in New York, on Long Island, where he
experienced some very good AA, and died with
60 years of sobriety.)

(p. 145)

I went to my first A.A. meeting on January 19,
1946. This group met in Warren, Ohio, only
four miles from my home. There were still
not very many A.A. meetings around, even in
my part of the country, and the next closest
one was in Youngstown, Ohio, ten miles away in
the opposite direction. The people at this
A.A. meeting talked about the severity of
their drinking and their long history of
alcohol consumption. I was at least twenty
years younger than the next youngest member.
... as I looked around the room, I kept on
telling myself that I could not possibly be
an alcoholic, because my experiences were so
different from theirs: I was part of a different
world, I did not believe that I had drunk the
way they did, and above all I was only
twenty-seven years old. I guess I felt as
though there was some magic number, like
forty-five or fifty, where no one could
conceivably be an alcoholic until the person
was at least that old.

(p. 146)

Some of the people at that A.A. meeting talked
about having been skid row bums, and having
begged or stolen to get alcohol, and other
behavioral traits like that. Again I said
to myself inside my own mind, that I had never
done any of these things, so I must not be
“one of them.”

(p. 147-8)

The “God talk” at that A.A. meeting in January
1946 also really turned me off. I would start
thinking of the strident, hysterical tones of
the radio evangelists my parents had made me
listen to as a child, and the excessive
moralisms and demands for blind faith in what
seemed to be total nonsense, and what seemed
to me to be the mindlessness of that kind of
hyper-religious cant, and this was the only
way I could think of to interpret what these
A.A. people were saying. And I knew I did not
want that, and would never be able to stomach
anything like that. One of the things the
little A.A. group in Warren failed to teach
newcomers was the marvelous spirit of tolerance
in A.A., and the way in which the members are
allowed to work out their own understanding of
spiritual issues and real eternal values and
the things which give real meaning to life.

I should also say however, that hating God and
being totally hostile to any kind of spiritual
concepts at all, is one of the standard
symptoms of untreated alcoholism in my
understanding of the disease, along with
rebelliousness, broken relationships with
family and neighbors, antisocial behavior of
various sorts, being excluded from all decent
society and turned into an outcast, failure to
achieve even basic job and educational require-
ments, and so on. These things all have to
be dealt with in order to heal someone’s life
in the A.A. program.

But I myself have now been sober, and a
continuously active A.A. member, for almost
fifty-five years at this point, and I have
never ever talked about the spiritual aspects
of the program to other people in any kind of
preachy religious language. It is not
necessary to sound like a radio or television
evangelist. And I have not only stayed sober
myself, but have helped bring literally
thousands of people into the program by
talking about it my way, so that is the way
I will write about it in this book.

(pp. 149-150)

At any rate, I had gone to my first A.A.
meeting on January 19, 1946. Wib, my first
A.A. sponsor, was a persistent person who
knew my wife and her whole family. He was
desperately trying to save our marriage. I
went to meetings with him for the next three
months.

There were both open meetings (which any
person could attend) and closed meetings
(for alcoholics only). Most of the meetings
were speaker meetings, with a leader and
two or three speakers.

The disease concept of alcoholism had not
truly percolated into that part of small town
Ohio, so the common mode of therapy was simply
to deliver “drunk-o-logues,” where those with
more time in the program went into long, lurid
detail about all the troubles they had gotten
into with their drinking, and encouraged the
newcomers to start speaking up and doing the
same. Members thought of themselves as drunks,
sots, dipsomaniacs (a word I have not heard
now in many years), or simply as no good
down-and-outers, dwelling morbidly on all the
guilt and shame which they felt. Alcoholics
have to face the bitter reality of what they
were actually doing to themselves with their
drinking, and the shambles this made of their
lives, but if you go no further than that,
very little real healing can occur.

There was not much in the way of real therapy
in the little Warren A.A. meeting. Newcomers
who came in seeking help had it dished out on
a contemptuous, rather arrogant take-it-or-
leave-it basis. There was also the prevalent
feeling that you were a clandestine member of
some ultrasecret society, holding little covert
meetings while you looked over your shoulder
continuously for fear that someone might find
out what you were doing. That also is not
conducive in the long run to real mental
health.

(pp. 150-151)

Frankly, that was not a one hundred percent
healthy group of people in the little A.A.
group in Warren, Ohio, in 1946. But there
were also some good and positive things going
on. To begin with, they got the starting
point right: they were not drinking.

(p. 151)

But the basic problem I was encountering in
that context, was that I could not come up
with any idea, from listening to the members
of the little Warren group, about how A.A.
could actually work. It was a two-step group.
They dealt with the first step (powerlessness
over alcohol) in their continual drunk-o-logues,
and they tried to practice the twelfth step
(carrying the message to others), but the
other ten steps in the twelve-step program
got almost no mention at all. There was very
little said for example on the fourth step,
that is, identifying and then learning to
deal with our crippling resentments and fears,
which I badly needed at that time, or on the
steps used to heal our sense of guilt, which
was almost totally overwhelming me at that time,
even if I had great difficulty consciously
admitting it.

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++++Message 5302. . . . . . . . . . . . Joe & Charlotte T. in Warrenton,
Virginia
From: charlie brooke . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/20/2008 8:15:00 PM

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Does anyone have any information concerning
Joe and Charlotte Trundle who started meetings
in Warrenton, Virginia?

It has been written that Charlotte was a
secretary to Bill and Joe was on the Grapevine
staff.

Any information will be greatly appreciated
as they founded the Clover Group here in
Warrenton.

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++++Message 5303. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W. and Time magazine
From: grault . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/22/2008 12:26:00 PM

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The story of how Bill W. declined the offer
to be on the front cover of Time magazine is
also recounted in "Pass It On," on page 314.

Gerry

>
> From: "kodom2545" <kodom2545@...>
> (kodom2545 at yahoo.com)
>
> I heard on a tape that Bill Wilson was
> nominated for Time Man of the Year, and also
> that he was nominated for a Nobel Prize.
> The speaker said that he turned down both.
> Is there any historical record for this or
> is it just a legend?
>
> God Bless,
> Kyle
>
> - - - -
>
> From the moderator:
>
> AAHistoryLovers message 1739 from Nancy Olson
> says that on April 30, 1960 Bill Wilson
> refused to be on the cover of Time Magazine.
>
> Susan Cheever, My Name Is Bill, says on
> p. 191 that:
>
> "By the time he wrote to Mark Whalon about
> turning down the Yale degree, Bill understood
> the principle of anonymity in a new way.
> Later he declined to be on the cover of Time
> magazine, even, as the editors suggested,
> with his back to the camera. He also turned
> down at least six other honorary degrees and
> a number of overtures from the Nobel Prize
> Committee."
>
> Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)
>
>

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++++Message 5304. . . . . . . . . . . . Coffee pots & the floor of Dr.
Bob''s kitchen
From: forrestdalejackson . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/21/2008 4:39:00 PM

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I was good to see Dr. Bob's house again. The
last time I was there they were tearing up the
floor in the kitchen to replace it. I asked
them if I could have some of the old linoleum
flooring (cause that's where the old drunks
puked) and they gave me some. Other visitors
to the house at the same time got some pieces.
I hoped they saved some for their archives
because my piece is in the Alabama Archives.

Dale

- - - -

> 2 photos of the coffee pots in Dr. Bobs house
> - I posted them on our group website:
>
> http://www.theprimarypurposegroup.com/coffeepots.htm
>
> mike
>

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++++Message 5305. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: those coffee pots
From: DONALD BENNITT . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/21/2008 11:30:00 PM

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The coffee pot on the stove is not a replica
of the one that is at Brown University....the
one on the stove is Wear-ever 3008. The
original was Wear-ever 5063.

As you know I was very close friends with
Sue, I have given several replicas to
interested, I still have several in my house
....there is one I donated to Akron Archives
in the Akron Intergroup office in plain sight.

Don

- - - -

On Mon, 10/20/08, mike
<mike@theprimarypurposegroup.com> wrote:

2 photos of the coffee pots in Dr. Bobs house
- I posted them on our group website:

http://www.theprimarypurposegroup.com/coffeepots.htm

mike

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++++Message 5306. . . . . . . . . . . . AA addresses for Google Earth search
From: jt092274 . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/19/2008 6:32:00 PM

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Does anyone have the kind of addresses which
could be used for looking at various AA
historical sites on Google Earth?

http://earth.google.com/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Earth

For Stepping Stones, the quarry in Vermont,
and any other significant addresses you might
know?

JT
<jt417552@aol.com>
(jt417552 at aol.com)

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++++Message 5307. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Why was "ACE FULL -- SEVEN --
ELEVEN" story omitted?
From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/20/2008 5:29:00 PM

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Didn't Bill D, AA#3, refuse to have his
story in the 1st Ed because he thought that
money was being made off the big book sales?

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++++Message 5308. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Why was "ACE FULL -- SEVEN --
ELEVEN" story omitted?
From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/20/2008 5:18:00 PM

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The Orange Papers is not quite the most
objective and impartial source for AA
information. Neither was Dr Bob's daughter
Sue.

The Orange Papers is an agenda-driven site
and things don't get on there unless they fit
the agenda.

Also, Sue W made no secret of her contempt
for Bill W. It was probably rather galling to
her that Bill's and Lois' heirs were receiving
royalties from the books Bill Wrote and she
wasn't. If you read her comments in "Children
of the Healer" about her daughter's suicide,
after murdering her granddaughter, they are
rather chilling, calculated and surreal.

The comment on the Big Book manuscript page
by Bill W, regarding Del T and his story,
says "Thought the book was a racket so
withdrew this."

By the way, Bill W assigned all author's
royalties from the Big Book to the Alcoholic
Foundation around September 1938. On April 22,
1940, Bill W and Hank P gave up their stock
in Works Publishing Co with a written
stipulation that Dr Bob and Anne would receive
10% royalties on the Big Book for life. Bill
did not start receiving royalties from Big
Book sales until after the US entered World
War II in December 1941.

Cheers
Arthur

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++++Message 5309. . . . . . . . . . . . Picking the Delegate at Area
Election Assemblies
From: maxtsuris . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/21/2008 11:24:00 AM

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A past Delegate from Area 7 asked me to post
this question. The delegate is always elected
first at the election assembly. Has there
ever been a time when the election of the
delegate came last, after all the other area
officers were elected? And does anybody know
why and when it was set up for the delegate
to be elected first? Thanks for any info.

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++++Message 5310. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W. and Time magazine
From: Ernest Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/22/2008 1:50:00 PM

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Could anyone please supplement Susan Cheever's
claims with source data for these claims:
the names of the institutions who inquired
about honorary degrees, and a more precise
description of the "overtures from the Nobel
Prize committee"?

ernie kurtz

- - - -

Message 5298 from Kyle <kodom2545@yahoo.com>
(kodom2545 at yahoo.com)
>
> I heard on a tape that Bill Wilson was
> nominated for Time Man of the Year, and also
> that he was nominated for a Nobel Prize.
> The speaker said that he turned down both.
> Is there any historical record for this or
> is it just a legend?
>
> God Bless,
> Kyle
>
> - - - -
>
> >From the moderator:
>
> AAHistoryLovers message 1739 from Nancy Olson
> says that on April 30, 1960 Bill Wilson
> refused to be on the cover of Time Magazine.
>
> Susan Cheever, My Name Is Bill, says on
> p. 191 that:
>
> "By the time he wrote to Mark Whalon about
> turning down the Yale degree, Bill understood
> the principle of anonymity in a new way.
> Later he declined to be on the cover of Time
> magazine, even, as the editors suggested,
> with his back to the camera. He also turned
> down at least six other honorary degrees and
> a number of overtures from the Nobel Prize
> Committee."
>
> Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

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++++Message 5311. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Chanting at meetings
From: Bill . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/20/2008 4:14:00 PM

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Two cents from Northern Illinois.

The chanting is infiltrating the meetings
here, some with just the "It works if you
work it sober" after the Lords prayer, hands
up and down and all. And some with the D. at
the end of how it works said out loud by all.
As well as "We think not" in response to the
question in the promises, are these extrava-
gant promises.

It all has made me a little nuts. It now has
given me opportunity to practice patience
and tolerance.

Gratefully, Bill

- - - -

From: "Val" <vfilipski@yahoo.com>
(vfilipski at yahoo.com)

I live in Sarasota, Florida and go to 3-4
different meetings a week from open discussion
to closed step meetings and depending on who
is there, there maybe chanting at different
points with How it Works, 12 Traditions and
most frequently during the Promises.

Went to the 50th State convention a few years
ago and after one opening where even the steps
were said in unison, people were requested
to refrain.

I see it in a couple of meetings in Atlanta,
Georgia, and Chevy Chase, Maryland, too.

- - - -

From: Lynn Sawyer <sawyer7952@yahoo.com>
(sawyer7952 at yahoo.com)

Here in Sacramento, California, at most
meetings I attend, the 'C. that God could and
would if He were sought' is repeated, as
well as the last words of Trad. 12,
'principles before personalities.' We don't
read the Promises, or we'd prolly chant that,
too!

Lynn S., Sacramento, CA

- - - -

From: Cindy Miller <cm53@earthlink.net>
(cm53 at earthlink.net)

...wanted to clarify about "chanting" in AA
meetings in Philadelphia. There is no
"chanting" here in west Philadelphia -- most
groups here don't read the Promises out of
context from the text that accompanies them
(I think GSO has asked the groups to be mindful
of this), and there had better not be any
nonsense during "How It Works"--the Old
Timers would shut that down immediately!

Still, one of the nicest closings I ever heard
of went, "will all who care to, join in with
us for the Lord's Prayer, followed by a simple
"Amen"....."

- - - -

From: "Theron B." <theronb49@gmail.com>
(theronb49 at gmail.com)

Haven't encountered this in Michigan yet.
The meetings I go to are primarily in the
middle lower peninsula. Occasionally someone
will call out "What's the point?", which also
happens to be the name of my home group,
incidentally.

Theron

- - - -

From: Eddie Abbott <wabbott1@comcast.net>
(wabbott1 at comcast.net)

My experience in the Houston area is as follows:

It is common for folks to chime in "God could
and would if he were sought" when someone is
reading How it Works.

Some meetings (and I've witnessed oldtimers
do this) chime in "What's The Point" in
between "we are not saints" and "the point
is....."

"Keep coming back, it works if you work it"
is said in unison at the end of the Lord's
Prayer (usually to close the meeting).

For me, it is important to understand and
realize that every group is different, made
up of people "who would normally not mix" and
I believe these variations are a good tool to
help us understand tolerance. Of course if
it really is an issue, take a group conscience
and address it.

- - - -

From: Downtown Doggie <downtowndoggie@yahoo.com>
(downtowndoggie at yahoo.com)

In my homegroup we have regular group
conscience meetings & we decided when at the
end of the Lord's Prayer, some people would
say "It works if you work it" & then drop
holding hands. Our decision was that we did
not as a group want to continue to participate
so we do not say it & we immediately drop hands
with our neighbors. They all eventually
stopped! Now and again when a new person shows
up & says it they stand out & quickly realize
our group does not chant.

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++++Message 5312. . . . . . . . . . . . Electing the Delegate
From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/23/2008 7:30:00 PM

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So far as I know, the power to elect the
Delegate was given to the GSRs (and DCMs,
only then they were ARs) by the Conference
in 1954.

In Eastern PA (then called PA), the first
election was held in November 1954 for the
1955-56 term, on the property of Dick C., who
was elected Delegate. The "State" then
elected an Alternate Delegate/Chairperson
(Ed H.), Secretary (Jo S.), and Treasurer
(Horace H.). The first two Delegates had been
chosen by Bill W., on the recommendation of
Johnny L. of Philadelphia for the first
(George R. of Jenkintown) and Yev G. (formerly
of the Lehigh Valley) for the second (Aaron
Burr B. of Bethlehem).

My understanding from one of the six "Area
Representatives" (now called DCMs) at that
time was that the Delegate, in this case,
was elected first because the main point of
the Assembly was actually to elect a Delegate,
to exercise the franchise given by the 1954
Conference. The most important business was
taken care of first. Note that both the
Alt Del/Chairperson and the Treasurer
subsequently became Delegates.

(My informant, the Area Representative for
what was then "Area 6" of "PA" -- made up of
what are now 17 separate districts within
Eastern PA and stretching from State College
to Pottsville and Elmira to Maryland -- is
still active in AA Service, Chet H. of
Hummelstown, DLD 4/4/1949.)

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++++Message 5313. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Picking the Delegate at Area
Election Assemblies
From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/22/2008 3:21:00 PM

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In the early years of the Conference (parti-
cularly during the trial Conferences) the
Delegate election usually occurred last.

During November/December 1950, 50,000 copies
of a pamphlet titled "Your Third Legacy Will
You Accept It?" were distributed. It explained
the Conference plans and Assembly election
procedures and contained a "Temporary Charter
for the Conference" of "Twelve Suggested Prin-
ciples." Bill also wrote a December 1950
Grapevine article titled "Your Third Legacy."


The Alcoholic Foundation invited one Conference
delegate from each of the then 48 States and
from the Canadian Provinces. Seven states with
large AA populations were assigned additional
delegates.

Delegates were divided into two Panels so that
half would be elected and half would rotate in
odd and even numbered years. Panel 1 areas were
asked to form a temporary committee to organize
an election assembly no later than March 1951.
Bill W traveled across the country attending
over two dozen assemblies electing area commit-
tees and Conference Delegates.

In the earliest years of the Conference
Structure, area assemblies were held primarily
to elect new area officers and a new
Conference delegate. The 1950 Third Legacy
pamphlet offered guidelines for an election
assembly. You might find them amusing.

Each group could select one Group Repres-
entative to attend an assembly. Group
Representatives later (1954) came to be
called General Service Representatives or
GSRs. At the assembly, they placed an "A"
next to their name on the assembly regis-
tration form to indicate that they were
available to serve on the area committee.
This determined the pool of nominees for
elections. Nominations were not allowed from
the floor and all voting was by written
ballot.

The first item of assembly business was to
create an area map divided into districts.
This determined the number of Committeemen
to be elected - one for each district.
Committeemen later came to be called Committee
Members and then District Committee Members
or DCMs.

The entire assembly voted in the election of
Committeemen. Elections were by plurality and
ended when a nominee received at least 25% of
the total votes cast. The first three
Committeemen elected automatically became
the Area Chair, Area Treasurer And area
Secretary in that order.

The delegate election required a 2/3 majority
of the total votes cast. If a 2/3 majority
could not be obtained, the delegate was chosen
by lot from among all the Committeemen whether
they were standing for the delegate election
or not. Each area determined the number of
times to vote prior to settling the election
by lot. Needless to say, much has changed since
then.

Cheers
Arthur

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++++Message 5314. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Sample of Herb D''s handwriting?
From: John Barton . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/22/2008 5:45:00 PM

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In message 5286, I said that "Herb was a
slipper who had been around since 1935 (see
Pass it On p.162)."

- - - -


My mistake! I have found this to be incorrect.
Herb D came in according to a survey of the
New Jersey Group conducted on Jan 1, 1940
(Document in Jersey Archives) earlier in 39.
Survey said he had 9 months. I suspect this
is also wrong unfortunately as I have found
other errors on this survey i.e. lists Hank P
as having "5 years", unlikely since that
would pre-date Dr Bob.

For example many of the "Pioneer Lists" on
the internet ( see below) are in error. Under
1935 they show Bill R. Pass it On says "Bill
and his wife non-alcoholic Kathleen.... "This
is Bill Ruddell who came in Feb 1937. Documents
in the New Jersey Archives confirm Bill Ruddell
and his wife Kathleen in letters from Ruth
Hock. Herb D and Earnest M are both listed in
the 1940 survey as having 9 months. Although
as I said I do question this. These guys
attended the meetings at Clinton Street but
not in 35 as indicated on these Pioneer Lists.
I have a strong suspicion (but unconfirmed)
at this point that Earnest M is "Mac".
Earnest's last name is MacKenzie. Recall
Mac was found drunk in Bill's office when
A LeRoy Chipman from the Rockefeller founda-
tion visited on Vesey Street.Circa 1939/40.

I am trying to chase this down, but we should
not read anything into Pass it On page 162 to
indicate that the people who attended the
Tuesday meetings at 182 Clinton Street were
all attending in 1935. The meetings on Tuesday
went from Fall of 1935 until April of 1939.
Pass it On says Lois remembers so and so etc,
could have been that many names mentioned
attended in later years, as is definitely the
case with Bill R. I must admit that I too
originally read that page in Pass it On with
tunnel vision.

I hope more will be revealed.

God Bless

John B

- - - -

Pioneers of Alcoholics Anonymous – 1934 – 1939

All Below Achieved At Least Some Period of Sobriety.
Some who failed may have achieved permanent sobriety later.
Bolded Names Achieved Permanent Sobriety.

1934

Name

Location

Comment/Big Book Story

Dec 11

Bill Wilson

New York

Co-Founder of AA – Bill's Story

1935

Jun 10

Dr.Bob Smith

Akron

Co-Founder of AA – Dr. Bob's Nightmare

June

Eddie Reilly

Akron

Sobered in 1949

June

Dr. McK.

Akron

Failed to gain long term sobriety

June

Bill Dotson

Akron

Alcoholics Anonymous No.3 – 2nd Ed

July

Ernie Gailbraith

Akron

The Seven Month Slip – (An In-and-Outer Slipper)

Aug

Wes Wyman

Akron

Sobered in 1949

Sept

Hank Parkhurst

New York

The Unbeliever – 4 yrs. Sober
Drunk Sept 1939

Sept

Phil Smith

Akron

Oct

John Henry "Fitz" Mayo

New York

Our Southern Friend

1935

Freddie B.

New York

Failed to gain long term sobriety

1935

Brooke B.

New York

Failed to gain long term sobriety

1935

Bill R. ERROR

New York

Failed to gain long term sobriety

1935

Ernest M. ERROR

New York

Failed to gain long term sobriety

1935

Herb D. ERROR

New York

Failed to gain long term sobriety

1935

Alec

New York

Failed to gain long term sobriety

1935

Russ R.

New York

Failed to gain long term sobriety

1935

Bill C.

New York

Failed to gain long term sobriety

1935

Victor (Akron)

New York

Failed to gain long term sobriety

1935

Lil (Akron)

New York

Failed to gain long term sobriety

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++++Message 5315. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill W.''s royalties from the Big
Book
From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/22/2008 5:30:00 PM

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Thanks for that information, Arthur. I thought
Bill W was making money off the book from the
start.

How authentic do you think was the story of
Father Dowling talking Bill W into taking
royalties?

- - - -

In a message dated 10/22/2008 1:42:17 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
ArtSheehan@msn.com writes:

... Bill W assigned all author's
royalties from the Big Book to the Alcoholic
Foundation around September 1938. On April 22,
1940, Bill W and Hank P gave up their stock
in Works Publishing Co with a written
stipulation that Dr Bob and Anne would receive
10% royalties on the Big Book for life. Bill
did not start receiving royalties from Big
Book sales until after the US entered World
War II in December 1941.

Cheers
Arthur

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++++Message 5316. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Oldest AA meeting place:
Morristown, New Jersey
From: John Barton . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/22/2008 10:20:00 PM

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According to documents in the GSO archives
(copies in NJ archives) Dr Malcolm T. wrote
to the Foundation office on 3/18/41 requesting
to start a meeting in Morristown, New Jersey.
Ruth Hock put him in touch with Bill Ruddell.
Group is listed in June 1941 correspondence
from Ruth Hock with 10 members, Mark D. was
the contact. Meeting would appear to have
started sometime between 3/18/41 and 6/41.

Best Regards

John B

- - - -

--- On Fri, 10/10/08, Stephen Gentile <sagentile@hotmail.com> wrote:

Church of the Redeemer
26 South Street Morristown New Jersey

November 1940 as per archived Redeemer Pamphlet
from the church.

Sunday night speaker meeting
2nd oldest meeting in New Jersey, oldest in
same location.

Kindest Regards, Steve G.

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++++Message 5317. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W. and Time magazine
From: JOHN WIKELIUS . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/22/2008 10:51:00 PM

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Time Magazine June 14, 1999 cover states
100 Heroes and Icons of the 20th Century.

Bill Wilson is named as founder of Alcoholics
Anonymous. Article written by Susan Cheever.

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++++Message 5318. . . . . . . . . . . . What Others Think of AA (1940s)
From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/23/2008 8:10:00 AM

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This is a little known Akron, Ohio, pamphlet
from the 1940s that was found in the Oklahoma
City, Oklahoma, archives. It had the same
shape and size as the four 1940 pamphlets
(“A Guide to the 12 Steps of AA”, “A Manual
for AA”, “AA Second Reader”, and “AA Spiritual
Milestones”) that Akron Intergroup still sells
today.

Across the top of every page it has “WHAT
OTHERS THINK” and included in this pamphlet
are excerpts from talks given by Dr. Bob, Dr.
Silkworth, Clarence Snyder, Bill Wilson,
possibly Marty Mann, and many early newspaper
articles. Very cool!

Just Love,
Barefoot Bill

- - - -

“What Others Think of Alcoholics Anonymous”
Published in Akron
by the
FRIDAY FORUM LUNCHEON CLUB
of the
AKRON A.A. GROUPS

PRICE TEN CENTS

A.A. on the Job
A word of praise is in order for the contribution which alcoholics
Anonymous, Inc., is making to the war effort.
Conservative efforts show that Akron district men whose habits have been
improved through this remarkable organization are putting in at least
536,000 man hours of productive work a year.
Members believe that if they were still addicted to constant overindulgence
in alcohol, at least 40 per cent of this time would be entirely lost while
the remainder would be less useful.
Thus, a double purpose is served by the help-one-another principle of
Alcoholics Anonymous – health and happiness are being restored to members
and the war effort is being materially aided.

Editorial
Akron (Ohio) Beacon Journal
Feb. 14, 1944

What Others Think of A.A.
You are reading this pamphlet because, somewhat reluctantly, you are
becoming convinced that you or someone you know, may be an alcoholic. You
are faced with the necessity of doing something constructive about this
condition. Some person, no doubt a member of Alcoholics Anonymous, has
talked to you. He has explained our program in part and has interpreted it
in terms of what it has done for him.
He is enthused, naturally so, because he has profited mentally, physically,
socially and financially, by applying our principles to his own life. He
feels that you need the program or he wouldn’t be wasting his time and
yours
by telling you these things. He knows, too, that if you need it, you can
profit just as he has profited.
However, if you are an alcoholic you have the typical alcoholic’s doubts
about yourself and about the sincerity of purpose of anyone trying to help
you. In your book “It just doesn’t add up.”
You may say to yourself: “Sure, this fellow thinks this program is great,
because he’s a member. He’s trying to sell me a bill of goods. But what
do
other people think about A.A.? I’ve never even heard about A.A. until now.
What’s it all about?”
With this thought in mind, we have collected and reprinted the following
editorial opinions, news clippings from newspaper files and comments from
people in all walks of life. Much has been written by Alcoholics Anonymous
members about our program. But these are opinions of non-alcoholics about
the works and workings of this group.
In some cases, articles have been cut down to conserve space. In no way,
however, has the text been altered.

Anonymously, They Help
Sometimes drunks are jovial and hilarious; sometimes they are depressed and
morose. Whatever their state of mind, they would seen unlikely persons to
enter wholeheartedly into a help-one-another movement, especially if it
meant giving up alcohol completely.
Yet this is exactly what has happened within the growing ranks of
Alcoholics Anonymous within the last five years. One “rummy” has helped
another – and in so doing has helped himself – until literally hundreds
of
lives have been reclaimed from the ravages of liquor.
These men and women weren’t just social drinkers, who sometimes took one
too many and woke up the next morning with a slitting headache and foggy
memory. They were true alcoholics – to whom liquor once seemed more
essential than food or air. Many of them knew and regretted their weakness,
but it possessed them like a disease.
They found a new life, based on the premise that they have a responsibility
to help others in the same plight. A few have slipped, but the proportion
that have so far been able to put liquor out of their lives is far greater
than has ever been attained by any other method.
Other Akronites can’t exactly pride in something with which they had no
connection, but it is worthy of note that the movement was born in this city
and that two of its three founders were prominent Akron persons. In five
years (A.A. is seven and one-half years old at this printing), the
organization has become nationwide in scope. Its success is a testimonial
to the innate desire of all men and women to help one another.

Reprinted from the
Akron Beacon Journal
Oct. 7, 1941

“Alcoholics Anonymous” Co-Founder Tells of Breaking 35-Year Drunk
By A.D. Le Monte
Gratefully sober, and about as cheerful as any group that ever gathered in
Youngstown, local members of Alcoholics Anonymous met Sunday night to hear
one of the co-founders of the movement speak.
In the room were nearly 100 well-dressed, clear-eyed, determined men who
once were kings of the bottle and masters of building a hangover. With them
were about 50 wives and sisters – who had put up with them in the old days
and helped them on their way to recovery – and myself, one of the few
non-Alcoholics ever to attend a meeting.
My passport Sunday night consisted of an impossible memory for names and an
uncanny ability to forget a face 17 seconds after I’ve seen it. Under
those
conditions I met former heavy drinkers who now are militantly ready to prove
that happiness, peace of mind and a working religion are adequate
substitutes for alcoholism.
Alcoholics Anonymous has captured the attention of psychiatrists and
physicians to the extent that many large hospitals and clinics now offer
free beds to prospective converts.

Not Offered as a Cure
Not a cure, it is offered only to drunks who honestly want to quit
drinking. It is successful only when the “patient” can accept the fact
that
there is a divine power ready to help him, and is willing to continually
sell the method to himself by selling it to others.
There’s nothing holier-than-thou about the organization, and there’s no
preaching. Neither do the members condemn drinking. They merely accept the
fact that while some men can drink, liquor is poison to others and must not
be touched.
The speaker told how he ended 35 years of steady drinking after trying
various methods that included hospital and sanitariums. Ardent reading of
the Bible and an earnest desire to stay sober also failed. He still got
drunk every night. Then he met the other founder-to-be, who had been sober
for four months and had learned that the way to convince himself was to
convince some other drunk. They began working on a third alcoholic and this
practical cure for drunkenness was born.

Begin with Prayer
Members of Alcoholics Anonymous begin the day with a prayer for strength
and a short period of Bible reading. They find the basic messages they need
in the Sermon on the Mount, in Corinthians and the Book of James.
“But that is not enough,” the speaker said, “for you cannot honestly
accept
what you read without also putting it into practice, and that means you must
help someone else.”
Local members, some of them ex-can gangers, others business and
professional men, have experienced probably every form of drunkenness. Some
were alcoholics for as long as 45 years, others for a comparatively short
time. Some lost their jobs and families; one man said that he was drunk
every day for years and never lost a job or got into any trouble.
Several stay sober by praying each morning for the strength to stay away
from liquor for the next 24 hours.
“We don’t worry about yesterday or tomorrow,” one said. “We just
concentrate on today.”

Reprinted from the
Youngstown, O., Vindicator

Article Worth Reading
Editor Beacon Journal:
I hope all Sunday readers of the Beacon Journal read the article in the
November 23 editorial section entitled “I Am An Alcoholic.” The article
is
well and interestingly written and very illuminating as to the technique
employed by Alcoholics Anonymous in winning converts to their cause.
This article should provoke thought and interest among friends and families
of alcoholics, among physicians and psychiatrists, judges, social workers,
ministers and clergy, employers and among alcoholics themselves.
Alcoholism is definitely a disease with many persons. Incarceration is no
solution or cure. Even medical and institutional care fail to keep the
alcoholic sober when he is set adrift again by himself. That’s the
different and wonderful thing about A.A. – it does provide an abiding
anchorage, a new courage and hope – yes, a new world is opened up to the
individual and a new individual is born into this new world.

THOMAS M. POWERS,
Municipal Judge

An Open Letter to the Editor
Of The Beacon Journal, Nov. 27, 1941

Alcoholics Anonymous Lauded by McFarland
By Dr. W. W. McFarland

Alcoholics Anonymous! A group of individuals who are sponsoring and
accomplishing a wonderful task of rehabilitation among others who have
fallen by the wayside.
Chronic alcoholism in its various stages is a mental disease characterized
by lack of will power, inspired by a desire to forget unpleasant things,
terminated in a mental breakdown.
Long continued excessive use of alcohol, eventually results in a complete
mental and physical collapse. Constitutional damage progressively
increases, and the chronic alcoholic finally becomes a family or community
charge.
Is there a cure for this disease? Possibly yes, if taken before the
physical and mental collapse is complete and before the individual has lost
his mental ability to sincerely co-operate in his own rehabilitation.

Will Power Vital
Will power, the desire to get well is the most powerful personal factor in
promoting recovery from many illnesses, and in no other disease is will
power more important than in recovery from chronic alcoholism.
Medicine, nursing, hospitalization, all serve a useful purpose in the
treatment of alcoholism, but if the individual’s will to recover is weak
or
lacking, all supplementary help is of little value.
And so we arrive at Alcoholics Anonymous, a group of men and women
organized for the charitable purpose of aiding unfortunate alcoholics to
strengthen and regain that failing but essential factor for complete
recovery – will power. That they have accomplished wonders in but little
over a year is substantially proven by their own records attested to by
medical groups in New York City and elsewhere.

Co-Operation Is Needed
Working anonymously and without material funds, Alcoholics Anonymous have
built up a membership of over 5,000 recovered individuals, all ex-alcoholics
and all sincerely co-operating in an effort to rehabilitate their
unfortunate brethren.
What can we do for the Pittsburgh branch of Alcoholics Anonymous? Can’t we
give them local hospitalization in institutions equipped to handle
alcoholics? Each individual will be recommended by the local group, and
certified as still retaining that essential factor for complete recovery –
inherent will power.
Will Pittsburgh co-operate? Will the citizens of this community lend a
helping hand to those who are attempting, under the name of Alcoholics
Anonymous to restore men and women to useful lives?

Reprinted from the
Pittsburgh, Pa., Sun-Telegraph

A.A. Homerun
One of the things that makes baseball so intriguing is the way a man can be
transformed from a hero to a bum overnight or vice versa.
But there’s more than just that in the case of Rollie Hemsley, fired by
the
Cincinnati Reds on Friday and the hero of the New York Yankees’ double
victory on Sunday.
Hemsley was one of the best catchers and hardest drinkers in the American
League. He would have been out of baseball long ago, if it hadn’t been for
Alcoholics Anonymous, the organization which believes that the best way for
a chronic alcoholic to cure himself is by helping others.
It was right here in Akron that Hemsley got a grip on himself and extended
his baseball life by several years. But age crept up; he hadn’t batted
well
this year with the Cincinnati Reds, so he was given his unconditional
release.
Did that cause him to go on an alcoholic bender? No. He may have been
flabbergasted but at least he was sober when Manager Joe McCarthy, in dire
need of a catcher, reached him by telephone to offer him a chance with the
Yankees. Off to New York he flew, to catch two full games and lead the
batting for his new teammates on Sunday.
Maybe clean living isn’t always rewarded but it’s plain enough to be
seen
that Hemsley would not now be on the New York Yankees’ roster and headed
for
a slice of World Series money if he were still up to his old tricks. Score
another homerun for Alcoholics Anonymous!

An Editorial, July 21, 1942
Akron Beacon Journal

Alcoholics Anonymous
By Regine Kurlander
Several months ago, there appeared in this column a piece attempting to
interpret and explain the woman’s sector of the Cleveland group of
Alcoholics Anonymous. In that story I told of lost people who had found
themselves … of men and women, not hard drinkers in the usual sense of the
word, but actual dupes of the fruitful grape and grain. And I tried to set
forth the difference between the former and those for whom alcohol is a
poison creating a compulsive neurosis (and subsequent allergy) that drags
them into degradation, illness, insanity and death.

Faith
Here, too, it was stated, that this nation-wide group, now numbering nearly
7,000, were never so foolish as to imagine they had the strength and the
power to achieve miracles alone. But that they had, with directness and
simplicity, reached for divine guidance with one hand (proclaiming that
intention) while stretching the other hand to their equally unfortunate
brothers and sisters.
Last Wednesday night, here in Manhattan I attended the first annual dinner
of the New York group of Alcoholics Anonymous. Here, among members of the
New York press (invited for the first time by the A.A.’s) together with
about 450 ex-alcoholics, accompanied by their wives and husbands, victims of
alcohol once removed, I heard Father Vincent Donovan (vigorous brother of
vigorous “Wild Bill”) magnificently extol the A.A. movement from the
standpoint of religion.
I also heard Dr. L. R. Silman of the psychiatric department of Columbia
University praise it in the name os science and humanity, and wistfully
suggest A.A. permit its ideology to be spread over a non-alcoholic world as
well. And I listened to Dr. W. D. Silkworth, physician in a sanitarium for
dipsomaniacs, maintain the A. A. principle is the first in the entire
history of alcohol’s Machiavellian grip on humanity, that has exercised
it,
even in passing.

Taken from the column,
“THIS – AND GLAMOUR, TOO”,
Cleveland Plain Dealer, Saturday, June 20, 1942

“What Makes An Alcoholic An Alcoholic?” was the question discussed by a
prominent New York businesswoman at an open meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous
Thursday night in United church. The answer, according to the speaker, lies
in the old adage, “one man’s meat is another man’s poison.”
“Alcoholics,” the speaker said, “are not confined to ‘stumble
bums’ but all
alcoholics share one thing in common: an allergy to alcohol. Alcoholism,
therefore, should be treated as a disease rather than as a moral offense.”
Among non-members present were Mayor Jasper McLevy, Dr. Fred Hoskins, of
United church, the Rev. A. Lester M. Worthey, of Christ church, and
representatives of the personnel offices of several was plants.
The work being done throughout the country by Alcoholics Anonymous has been
approved and encouraged by medical men and psychologists. Additional
recognition was given the organization recently in the form of an invitation
to participate in a study of alcoholism made at Yale University. The
Bridgeport address of the organization is P.O. Box 1006.

Bridgeport (Conn.) Post
September 24, 1943

All Things Considered
By Howard Vincent O’Brien

The publishers of “The Lost Weekend,” a book by Charles Jackson, call it
“one of the great pieces of modern writing.” So sure are they of its
success that their first printing was 20,000 copies – ten times the
normal.
I am sure they are right, I think it will go into more than one printing
and will be widely discussed.
It is not a pleasant book. It is, in fact, one of the most horrible books
I ever read – and its horror is not the synthetic sort. It is as real and
as terrifying as the clinical report on a patient in an asylum. Indeed,
that is precisely what it is – the story of five days in the life of an
alcoholic.

Lost Weekend
It is a hideous story, as it must be; for the life of an alcoholic is a
hideous thing. I cannot imagine anybody who is not an alcoholic or is not
interested in some alcoholic, reading it for amusement. On the other hand,
I cannot imagine anyone who has experienced alcoholism, personally or as a
spectator, pulling it down once he has started to read it.
Alcoholism is one of the most widespread of diseases. It attacks the most
gifted and charming people, and is no respector of race, creed, color, age,
sex, or social standing. It is a mystery form which hardly the outer veil
has been lifted.
No alcoholic, apparently, has ever been helped by threats or moralizing or
“treatment.” The most successful attack on alcoholism, so far as I know,
is
that of “Alcoholics Anonymous” – an informal organization of
alcoholics, one
of whose tenets is that nobody can understand an alcoholic but another
alcoholic.
The fundamental thesis of “Alcoholics Anonymous” is that a man can save
himself only by saving others. And therein is the paradox of alcoholism:
the alcoholic is what he is because his soul is turned in upon itself.

Irony
If you think the problem of the alcoholic is a simple one – that all you
need say to free him of his incubus is: “snap out of it” – then read
the
grim pages of “The Lost Weekend” – and weep!
You will dream no more of scolding the alcoholic back to normalcy; for you
will have a picture that you can’t forget of the torture that the
alcoholic
inflicts upon himself.
What fools, at best, we human beings are! Here we are, busy at the task of
mutual extermination; but not too busy to be planning a warless world. And
as we face hopefully up to the mystery of war, confident that it can be
abolished, we have on our own doorsteps the equally great mystery of
alcohol – with hardly a glimmer of an idea what to do about it.
Well, the first step toward the solution of a problem is to state it, and
this “The Lost Weekend” does – with unshrinking ruthlessness, with a
fidelity to fact that will stun anyone who has not seen these things
himself.

Chicago Daily News,
February 16, 1944.

A Dramatic Success

No organization in America has made more dramatic success in dealing with
victims of the drink than Alcoholics Anonymous, a society that has no formal
membership, no regular dues, no by-laws, and no dogmatic creed except the
“twelve steps to recovery.” The unsalaried head of the movement is known
as
“Bill” to the more than 10,000 men and women who are affiliated in the
fight
for freedom from alcohol. Only the other day “Bill” announced that more
than 5,000 “ex-drunks” had been given back to the nation as sober men,
and
employed in one way or another in the war effort.
For every one of these liberated individuals we are profoundly grateful.
But we cannot refrain from observing that for every sober worker Alcoholics
Anonymous has added to the roll of the nation’s workers, the liquor
traffic
has subtracted an uncounted number. The labor loss due to the use of liquor
constitutes a damning indictment of the traffic wherever the true facts are
brought to light.

Christian Advocate,
July 1, 1943

Progress Through A.A.

…Many of our patients are making splendid progress in readjusting their
lives on a non-alcoholic basis through association with a group of
ex-alcoholics known as “Alcoholics Anonymous.” They stress the spiritual
values of life and offer to each other a fellowship of sympathetic
understanding and helpfulness which we believe to be sound and worthy of the
highest praise…
One of our patients in particular who was a heavy drinker for twenty years
and finally found himself upon the brink of destruction is now accomplishing
a wonderful “come back” to a normal, happy and successful life through
his
association with “Alcoholics Anonymous.” He has taken up an early hobby,
long neglected through alcoholic indulgence, of collecting a scrapbook of
inspirational gems in literature…We have reprinted it for the use of our
convalescing patients.

Reprinted from literature of the Samaritan Treatment, nationally known
treatment for alcoholics.

An Open Meeting

For the first time invited guests were admitted yesterday to a joint
meeting of the 39 Cleveland area groups of Alcoholics Anonymous, remarkable
fellowship which is credited with restoring to useful and happy lives
thousands of admitted victims of extreme alcoholism.
Object of the gathering was to give friends of A.A. members a chance to
gain a better understanding of the fellowship’s work.
To even the keenest observer it would have been nearly impossible to
distinguish among the 800 persons who assembled in the ballroom of Hotel
Cleveland those who were former two-quart-a-day imbibers and those who were
merely guests.

At Ease in A.A.
Perhaps the only tipoff was that the A.A. members knew each other and
greeted each other enthusiastically and were completely at ease, while the
nonmembers stood silently by apparently somewhat uncomfortable.
The meeting opened with the chairman, who in deference to the fellowship’s
principle of anonymity shall be nameless in this story, describing A.A’s
work and aims.
:Our growth,” he explained, “has been phenomenal, and this has resulted
in
misconceptions in many minds.
“We ask you to remember this: We can help only those who sincerely and
honestly want help.
“We cannot hold as members men and women who do not accept without
reservation, our simple program for living. We are not uplifters or
reformers. We do not try to sell A.A.
“The individual, plus a power greater than himself, can become a
successful
member. We understand him; we can encourage and help him.
Outsiders Amazed
“Most outsiders are amazed when we tell them that it is possible to stop
drinking entirely and enjoy life. Nevertheless, that is a fact. And we are
having a swell time.”
The principle speaker was the man who formed the first A.A. group in
Cleveland five years ago. There are today more than 1,600 members in this
area.
This speaker assured the guests that A.A. had no desire to reform the
world, that it was not “prohibitionist” or against social drinking by
persons who could do such drinking without becoming alcoholics.
Alcoholism he described as “a disease that takes away the finer things of
life,” and he explained: “We are interested only in persons who have
definite alcoholic problems and wish to overcome them.”
The A.A. program, he went on, is based on spiritual principles, and new
members are told that they “must put a dependence in God.” The program
includes 12 steps, the first three of which are for the development of
intellectual humility, the next six for self-analysis or
“housecleaning” of
the personality and the last three for the maintenance of a state of mind
leading to “dryness” of thought.
Cleveland area members include representatives of nearly all professions.

Cleveland Plain Dealer,
March 3, 1944.

Sports Writer’s View
By BILL CUNNINGHAM

Not as a suppliant, thank God, but out of reportorial curiosity I attended
the other night a meeting of that unique brotherhood and sisterhood known as
Alcoholics Anonymous. My previous relations with it had been entirely
second hand. They began two or three years ago when I wrote that, at the
time, seemed to be the eerie story of the enlistment in the cold water army
of Rollie Hemsley, the Cleveland catcher, and, until then one of
baseball’s
leading Admirals of the Red, a gent who swacked it down raw and unmarried,
and then went looking for action, cops and managers preferred…
(Editors note: Cunningham here tells at length how Hemsley was sobered up
in an Akron hospital and remained sober through Alcoholics Anonymous.)
…the founder of Alcoholics Anonymous was here the other night and I
decided
to go hear him speak…Instead of “jittery neurotics” there were
probably a
hundred of as nice looking and important looking people as you could gather
together in any town. There were several intensely interested looking
clergymen in their cloth. I recognized a couple of the town’s leading
doctors. They were obviously there for information, some possibly as
endorsers, or “next friends,” as the organization calls them, a category
in
which they apparently have placed me.
The founder, we’ll call him Bill, was a tall, easy-to-take sort of fellow
with a good sense of humor and an easy way of talking. He told the story of
the founding of the movement, which was really the story of his life, and
how liquor had him down and out in 1934. He used such terms as “we
drunks”
and “we alcoholics” and the audience, including many of the women, would
smile and nod their acceptance of the fraternal classification, the
experience he was describing, and the point he was making…
…The basic theory seems to be that nobody but an ex-drunk can really help
a
drunk. Teetotalers, or people who haven’t been in the depths themselves,
can’t really appeal to an alcoholic, but if a man goes to one and says,
“Listen, no matter how low you are, how you are suffering, I was once
lower
and suffered even more; I pulled myself out of it and so can you,” there
is
a solid taking-off point.
All they ask is that a man admit he is otherwise licked, that he wants

help, and that he believes or even will try to believe in God, or at least
in some power, however vaguely conceived, that is bigger and stronger than
himself. He’s got to have something to reach for and to hook to. They
rationalize his problems, help him straighten out his maladjustments find
him a new interest to replace the bottle, and that new interest in many
cases is working on other drunks in the same shape that he was…
This doesn’t apply naturally to those who can take it or leave it alone,
but to those who can’t take it and can’t leave it alone.

Boston Post,
February 28, 1943.

And the Ladies

NEW YORK, March 18 – We have to face the unpleasant fact that drinking to
excess has increased among us women lately – due, probably, to the almost
unbearable stress of the times and because so many are lonely or worried
about their men at the wars, or often both. As is the case with men, most
of the girls can control their elbow bending, but there is the fatal and
tragic few who became in time what are technically called chronic
alcoholics, but often labeled problem drinkers.
You have probably heard of the remarkable crowd of men and women who call
themselves Alcoholics Anonymous – people who have managed to haul
themselves
out of the alcoholic swamp by main strength and spiritual horsepower. The
latter is the keynote of their salvation – an inner strength and belief
that
has nothing to do with formal creed.
First feminine member of the local A.A. club has just appealed to all women
rum victims to get together with their home town groups. One of the secrets
of the considerable A.A. success lies in frequent meetings.
Though I am practically a teetotaler, I have been to one of these
get-togethers. The men and women play cards, talk, eat snacks, have a very
pleasant time, I needn’t say that they are what are usually called “nice
people,” for one of the great tragedies of liquor addiction is that it so
often claims the cleverest, the most intelligent, the most sensitive. I
know one fine Washington girl who has been off the stuff about a year, and
goes to A.A. meetings there. And you’d be surprised as I was at the
identity of many of the people trying to lick the old enemy in the capital.

By Alice Hughes in article syndicated by
King Features, March 19, 1944

Psychology Helps

CASE C-255: Henry D., aged 35, is a talented dentist.
“My wife is about to divorce me, however,” he spoke gloomily over the
telephone, “because I can’t let whiskey alone. It is ruining my home as
well as my practice. I used to think I could quit the drink habit if I
wanted to, but I guess I was wrong. Dr. Crane, what would you recommend?”
DIAGNOSIS: I told Henry I would refer his case to our Chicago branch of the
society called “Alcoholics Anonymous,” made up of former drunkards from
all
walks of life.
That same afternoon two men walked into Henry’s dental office and
introduced themselves. One was a doctor and the other a lawyer. They
belonged to “Alcoholics Anonymous.” They bundled Henry into their auto
and
headed for Oak Park, a suburb of Chicago, where their weekly meeting was to
be held that night.
Henry had called his wife just before he left the office, but she upbraided
him for not coming home, alleging that he was simply going on another spree.
So he took some pamphlets home with him as evidence, and is now headed back
to normalcy and freedom from the drink habit.
“ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS” employs several sound psychological principles in
curing chronic drunkards.
First, it gets them to confess that they are helpless victims of alcohol.
As long as a man tries to kid himself along by saying he can always quit
liquor, as well as tobacco, whenever he wants to do so, he will rarely be
able to break the dominance of such bad habits.
But as soon as he openly admits that he is a slave to these chemical
agents, there is hope of helping him. He is then told that chronic
alcoholism is a disease.
Moreover, he associates with others who have previously sunk to the depths
of degradation and poverty because of liquor. They match his story with
their own autobiographies, for they have “testimonial” and
“confessional”
periods at every meeting.
THESE ASSOCIATES keep telling him not to worry, for he’ll be cured. This
is excellent positive suggestion and re-stimulates him to renewed courage.
As such, it is far superior to the criticism of the wife or family who tell
him “I knew you couldn’t quit.”
As soon as the victim is cured, then he is immediately made sponsor of some
other newcomer to the organization. This responsibility for setting an
example to his protégé; thus helps inspire the cured members and keep him
on
the right track.

-DR. GEORGE W. CRANE.

Hopkins Syndicate,
Published Nation-wide,
May 29, 1944.

DETACH AND MAIL THIS COUPON
For Copies of this Booklet

Those desiring additional copies of this booklet may obtain same at a cost
of ten cents per copy or eight cents per copy in lots of fifty or more.
Simply sign and mail the form below. All copies will be sent postage
pre-paid in a plain envelope or package. Make checks payable to the Friday
Forum Luncheon Club.

Post Office Box 932, Akron, Ohio

Gentlemen:
Enclosed find $_________. Send me postage prepaid _____ copies of your
booklet, “What Others Thik of A.A.”

Name _______________________
Street ______________________
City _____________ State _____

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++++Message 5319. . . . . . . . . . . . Any history and photos available on
Gordon McDougal
From: juan.aa98 . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/23/2008 4:42:00 PM

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Any info and pictures on Gordon McDougal would
be appreciated.

My email address is:

<juan.aa98@yahoo.com>
(juan.aa98 at yahoo.com)

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++++Message 5320. . . . . . . . . . . . AA in South Orange, New Jersey (1 of
3)
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/25/2008 4:35:00 PM

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From "John Barton" <jax760@yahoo.com>
(jax760 at yahoo.com)

AA in South Orange, New Jersey (1 of 3)

The History of Alcoholism and Alcoholics Anonymous
in South Orange, New Jersey

Section 1 (of 3)

In order to study the history of Alcoholics Anonymous in South Orange, New
Jersey, it might be a good idea to go back briefly and look at the history
of
A.A. as a whole. Actually, it might be fun to go back and put together the
pieces of the puzzle before A.A. began. Just as you and I have parents,
grandparents and great grandparents, for whom had it not been we never would
have been born, the same is true of A.A. Prior to the meeting of the New
York
Stock broker and the Akron Physician on Mother’s day, May 12, 1935, many
events
had to take place in order to set the stage for that historic occasion.
In Part I, we looked at the history of alcohol and alcoholism. We saw the
rise
of alcoholic drinking and the temperance movement instituted by the
Washingtonians. We learned something of the rescue missions and the
groundbreaking work of William James. Lastly, we learned of a Lutheran
Minister
by the name of Frank Buchman, who had started a “First Century Christian
Fellowship” which was to play a major role in the Social Phenomenon which
was to
become Alcoholics Anonymous.
In Part II, we learned that the Oxford Group and their life changing program
of
recovery had sobered, Rowland Hazard and Ebby Thatcher who brought the
message
of recovery to Bill Wilson. Bill had a sudden spiritual experience in Towns
Hospital and never drank again. In May of 1935, Bill brought the message of
recovery to Dr. Robert Smith and in June of 1935 the first group of
recovering
alcoholics had formed in Akron, Ohio, though no one knew it at the time.

In August of 1935 Bill Wilson left Akron and returned to New York. Not long
after Bill found his first New York prospect at Town’s Hospital. Most
historians
date it as September when Bill first began working with Henry P Parkhurst.
Henry
(Hank) had been an executive with the Standard Oil Co. and was fired for his
drinking. Hank was to become Bill’s first New York “sponsee” and was
from
Teaneck, New Jersey.

New Jersey A.A. can trace its roots to this event.

In October of 1935, Bill got his second recruit from Town’s hospital, Fitz
Mayo.

In the fall of 1935, a little band of recovering drunks had formed and began
attending Oxford Group meetings in Brooklyn at Bill & Lois’s house at 182
Clinton Street. These meetings included Bill and his wife Lois, Hank and his
wife Kathleen, Fitz Mayo, Bill R. and his wife Kathleen, and two other New
Jerseyites, Herb Debevoise and his wife Margaret from South Orange and
Ernest
McKenzie from Westwood. Hank (The Unbeliever) and Fitz (Our Southern Friend)
had
their stories included in the first edition of the Big Book. Pass it On
indicates that there were other attendees at these Tuesday night meetings
including Ebby Thatcher who had moved in with the Wilson’s, Shep Cornell,
Freddie B (The Chemistry Professor) Brooke B. (from Calvary House) and Alec
who
had also moved in with the Wilson’s.
At the close of 1935, there were two growing bands of sober alcoholics
within
the Oxford Groups. The Akron contingent consisting of Dr. Bob, Bill Dotson
and
third recruit named Phil Smith. The New York contingent consisted of Bill
Wilson, Hank Parkhurst and Fitz Mayo. Other members in both contingents had
not
yet achieved sobriety or were continuously slipping.

At the close of 1935 there were three New Jersey members of A.A., Hank
Parkhurst
of Teaneck, Herb Debevoise of South Orange, and Ernest McKenzie of Westwood.

Moving forward to 1937, on February 13th the Alcoholic Squadron of the New
York
Oxford Group held a meeting in New Jersey at Hank Parkhurst’s Teaneck
home. It
was the first time the group of drunks met here in New Jersey to conduct an
Oxford Group meeting. Hank and Kathleen would later move (during 1937) to
Montclair, New Jersey
In 1937, New Jersey added additional members to its ranks. In February Bill
Ruddell of Hackettstown joined the growing band of nameless drunks. Bill’s
story
appeared in the first edition of the book Alcoholics Anonymous (A Business
Man’s
Recovery). In March of 37 Florence Rankin joined the growing band of
recovering
drunks and was the first woman to achieve any sobriety time. Florence hailed
from Westfield, New Jersey. Florence’s story appeared in the first edition
of
the “big book” (A Feminine Victory). In July of 37, Paul Kellogg of
Roselle
achieved sobriety.

In August of 1937, the New York alcoholics split from the Oxford Group. Bill
and
Lois were frequently criticized by OG members for concentrating too much on
reforming drunks rather than carrying on Oxford Group work. The alcoholics
in
New York also had difficulty complying with some of the Oxford Group
principles
such as the Four Absolutes and receiving “guidance” from other group
members.
The group in Akron would continue its affiliation with the Oxford Group
until
late in 1939.

In October of 1937, Bill returned to Akron on a business trip. Visiting with
Dr
Bob one afternoon they “counted noses” of the alcoholics staying sober
in both
New York and Akron. They realized that some forty, formerly medically
hopeless
alcoholics were recovering as the result of the life changing program
undertaken. More than half of these cases had more than one year of
continuous
sobriety. Bill and Bob realized they need to make this program of recovery
available to as many alcoholics as possible. They convince the Akron
contingent
to support the idea of building hospitals to rehabilitate alcoholics, hiring
paid missionaries to carry on the life changing work in conjunction with the
hospitals, and to write a book outlining the life changing program.

Bill returns to New York and receives an enthusiastic response to the ideas
he
had proposed in Akron. Bill and Hank begin trying to raise funds for the
book
project. They have little success over the next two months and Bill is quite
dejected.

In December of 1937, Bill visits his brother-in-law Dr. Leonard Strong.
Leonard
calls an old friend, Willard Richardson who is the manager of John D.
Rockefellers philanthropies. Bill meets Richardson who is interested in the
work
being done by the recovering alcoholics and arranges for second meeting held
in
January which included Bill W, Dr Bob, Hank P, Fitz M, Paul Stanley and Ned
P (a
new man). Other attendees were Dr Silkworth, Richardson, Frank Amos, A LeRoy
Chipman and Albert Scott.

In January of 1938, Hank Parkhurst opened an office in Newark New Jersey
located
at 9-11 Hill Street. Hank later moved the office to 17 William Street. The
office was "the headquarters for a rapidly failing business," according to
Bill. The "rapidly failing business" was Honor Dealers, which Hank had
conceived, according to one source, as a way of getting back at Standard
Oil,
which had fired him. His plan was to provide selected gasoline stations with
the
opportunity to buy gasoline, oil, and automobile parts on a cooperative
basis.
Hank hired a secretary, Ruth Hock and Bill Wilson was hired to be a salesman
for
the company. Ruth remembered very little gasoline business being conducted
there. A lot of people dropped in to discuss their drinking problems, and on
more than one occasion she observed Bill and Hank kneeling in prayer by the
side
of Hank's desk with one of these visitors, an Oxford Group custom when
seeking
God's guidance. It was here in the offices of Honor Dealers that the book
Alcoholics Anonymous was to be written.

In February, Willard Richardson asked Frank Amos to visit Akron and make a
report on the Fellowship. Amos wrote a very favorable and glowing report
that
Richardson sent to John D Rockefeller Jr. urging a donation of $5,000 a year
for
1 or possibly 2 years (the equivalent of $71,4290 a year in today’s
dollars).
Rockefeller replied to Richardson that it was contrary to the policy of his
philanthropies to fully fund a charitable enterprise unless it was decided
to
carry it indefinitely. Rockefeller declined to make a donation for the
second
year but did provide $5,000 to be held in a fund in the Riverside Church
treasury. Much of the fund was used to immediately assist Dr Bob by paying
off
the mortgage to his home. The remainder was used to provide Bill and Dr Bob,
who
were both in very difficult financial straits with $120 a month ($1,667 a
month
today) so that they could continue to dedicate themselves full time to the
Fellowship.

March marked the beginning of the writing of the Big Book at Hank’s office
(Honor Dealers, 9-11 Hill St in Newark, NJ). Bill W wrote, edited and
rewrote
manuscripts at home on legal pads then dictated chapters to Ruth Hock
(nicknamed
“Dutch” - short for “Duchess” who was then the Honor Dealers
Secretary). Bill W
wrote to Dr Bob that he had dictated two chapters of the proposed
book” (There
Is a Solution and Bill’s Story).

Additional chapters were written in the new offices at 17 William Street.

By Spring of 1938, Bill was being pressured to write promotional material
for
the book project. Also at this time it became evident that the group needed
a
foundation, so a young attorney named John Wood, a friend of Frank Amos, was
hired. The name "The Alcoholic Foundation" was chosen to leave open all
sorts of
possibilities for future endeavors. Members of the first board of trustees
were
Dick Richardson, Frank Amos, John Wood, Bill Ruddell, and Dr. Bob. Ruddell
of
Hackettstown, got drunk a few months later and was replaced by another New
Jersey member, Harry Brick. Harry, from Montclair, New Jersey was
“Fred”,
partner in the well known accounting firm in chapter three of the big book.
Harry’s story ( A Different Slant) also appeared in the first edition of
the big
book. Harry too, later got drunk and had to be removed from the board. It
seems
like the early pioneers from New Jersey would have their troubles in
maintaining
sobriety.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 5321. . . . . . . . . . . . AA in South Orange, New Jersey (2 of
3)
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/25/2008 4:35:00 PM

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From "John Barton" <jax760@yahoo.com>
(jax760 at yahoo.com)

AA in South Orange, New Jersey (2 of 3)

The History of Alcoholism and Alcoholics Anonymous
in South Orange, New Jersey

Section 2 (of 3)

During an early Fall meeting of the trustees, Frank Amos popped up with the
idea
that one of his friends—Gene Exman—one of the religious editors of
Harpers
Magazine, might be interested in the book project. (Bill went to meet Exman,
who
was quite pleased with what Bill had written and said he could probably get
an
advance of $1,500 "If it could help things along." This would be deducted
from
the sale of the books when finished. Bill was uneasy with the thought that
an
outsider might end up in control of the group’s major asset. He reported
the
offer to the trustees and they were very happy, but they could not
understand
Bill’s conclusion and dismay. They pointed out authors very seldom publish
their
own works, a well-known fact. The meeting ended with no conclusion. Hank
Parkhurst asked Bill, "Why do we bother with those trustees, they have not
raised a cent and they are not going to, either. Let’s put this proposed
book on
a business basis and form a stock company. We’ll sell shares to our own
folks."
Still, the trustees were skeptical, so Bill went back to see Exman who
agreed
the membership should print its own book. The New York Group and Dr. Bob
agreed
but the rest of the Akron Group was skeptical.

Hank worked out a prospectus for the new publishing company, which they
called
"The 100 Men Corporation." They would offer 600 shares for sale at $25 par
value
[$25 for each share]. Hank went down to a stationary store, bought blank
stock
certificates, typed in his full name, followed by the title "President." The
name of the publishing company was "Works Publishing Co.," but the
corporation
was not registered until several years later. Hank and Bill were each to
keep
200 shares for their work on the book, the balance of the 200 shares would
be
sold for $25 per share. This would raise the $5,000 needed to publish the
book.
Hank button-holed every member in New York, persuading and brow beating them
one-by-one, while Bill followed him around trying to smooth things over, but
with all their expertise they still could not sell the certificates.

Then Hank had another idea: Why not get a magazine to do an article about
the
book and the group? Dr. Silkworth was renting a house from the
publisher-owner
of the Reader’s Digest, a Mr. Williams. Every month Dr. Silkworth sent his
rent
to Mr. Walters, who was president of the magazine – which had a
circulation of
12 million readers at that time. So Bill and Hank prevailed upon Dr.
Silkworth
to send copies of the first two chapters of the Big Book to Walters with a
recommendation of the new organization and its founders. That is how they
got in
touch with Kenneth Payne, the managing editor of the Reader’s Digest. So
Bill
and Hank sped off to see Payne, who seemed quite interested -- and assured
them
the magazine would want to run an article when the book was ready to hit the
streets.

Now they had some real ammunition to drum up support for the book, something
to
really sink their teeth into. Now the former doubters began to sign up—but
nearly everyone was broke, so they offered the stock on the installment
plan, $5
a month for five months. Most could only afford a single share. When the
trustees were informed of the good luck, they signed up, too. Dr. Silkworth
and
Dr. Tiebout pitched in, and a few of Bill’s Wall Street friends chipped in
a
little. Charles Towns loaned them $2,500. But he would not buy stock, he
wanted
a note for security! Eventually, the 200 shares were sold. Finally, the
subscribers felt they would eventually get their money back, so everyone got
behind the deal. Bill began writing the remainder of the book, making notes
on
legal pads, and dictating to Ruth Hock in the little office room 601 at 17
William Street.

With the writing of the Chapter to the Agnostic and How it Works the fight
in
New York was on. Bill favored writing a spiritual book that was filled with
references to God. Hank Parkhurst led the fight along with another new comer
named Jimmy Burwell, to keep the book psychological in nature and no
religion.
Fitz and the Akron members also favored a spiritual book. The fight almost
broke
up the little fledging fellowship and Bill eventually compromised including
such
expressions as “higher power” and God “as we understood him” in the
book.
Several of the steps were re-written in the process. The original version of
the
Twelve Steps is shown below:

1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol - that our lives had become
unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that God could restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our wills and our lives over to the care and
direction of God.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature
of
our wrongs.

6. Were entirely willing that God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly on our knees asked Him to remove these shortcomings - holding back
nothing.
8. Made a complete list of all persons we had harmed and became willing to
make
amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so
would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly
admitted it.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our contact with God,
praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that
out.
12. Having had a spiritual experience as the result of this course of
action, we
tried to carry this message to others, especially alcoholics, and to
practice
these principles in all our affairs.

In January of 1939 the first draft of the Big Book was complete. Four
hundred
multilith copies were produced and distributed to the shareholders and
interested parties for review. One of those to review the book was
reportedly
the “Chief Psychiatrist of NJ” “Dr. Howard” from Montclair, New
Jersey who
suggested softening the tone of the book to make it appear more suggestive.
Dr.
“Howard” is considered to be an alias and may have actually been Dr.
Marcus A.
Curry, Chief at the NJ State Asylum for the Insane at Greystone Park during
the
years 1936-40.

In April of 1939 the Big Book is published with the name “Alcoholics
Anonymous”
Bill had credited a New York member (and psychiatric patient) Joe W with the
name.

On April 26, 1939 Bill and Lois were evicted from their home at 182 Clinton
Street in Brooklyn. They moved in with Hank and Kathleen Parkhurst who were
now
living in Montclair, New Jersey.

On April 29, 1939 New Jersey member Morgan Ryan of Glen Ridge (former
advertising man, asylum patient and friend of Gabriel Heatter) appeared on
Heatter’s 9:00 PM radio program “We the People.” He told his story and
made a
pitch for the newly published Big Book. Morgan had been sequestered at the
downtown Athletic Club for a number of days to ensure his sobriety remained
intact for the program.

On May 11, 1939 the first meeting of “Alcoholics Anonymous” using the
name
“Alcoholics Anonymous” was held in Cleveland. The group had been forced
to
split from the Akron Oxford Group due to its Catholic members having trouble
within their churches regarding attendance at Oxford Group meetings.
Although
non-denominational, the Oxford Group had its roots in Classical Liberal
Protestantism.

On May 14, 1939, a Sunday afternoon, the very first meeting of what was to
become the New Jersey Group of Alcoholics Anonymous took place in the home
of
Hank and Kathleen in Montclair. Meetings that had been formerly held in
Brooklyn
were held in New Jersey for the next 5 or 6 weeks. The meetings began at
4:00
and went most of the night. They rotated speakers for the first portion
according to Jim Burwell who was probably living at Hank and Kathleen's home
as
well at that time. These were dinner meetings with Herb Debevoise from South
Orange paying for a "big spread". The wives always attended these along with
their spouse's. At the May 14th, meeting they voted in the Bill and Lois
Home
replacement fund and each pledged different amounts of which none of them
paid
more than a few months. They wrote up a document with this information which
is
in the GSO archives. (Bill and Lois were doing an errand when they voted
this
Home Replacement Fund in - they arrived shortly thereafter and Lois wrote in
her
diary that they were thrilled.) Marty Mann was still a Blythewood Sanitarium
patient and she took the train to the meeting from CT. to NJ.

In the early summer of 1939 there was a falling out between Bill and Hank.
Hank
wanted to leave his wife and marry Ruth Hock, the secretary from Honor
Dealers.
She refused his proposal and Hank felt that Bill had interfered. In late
June
Hank and Kathleen would split up. Hank moved to East Orange, Bill and Lois
left
to stay at the Bungalow owned by Horace Crystal (a New York member) in Green
Pond, New Jersey. Green Pond was in the remote wilderness and Lois loved it.
Her
diary entries from that time, many of which are in Lois Remembers, are the
longest and happiest of that first 5 year period.

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++++Message 5322. . . . . . . . . . . . AA in South Orange, New Jersey (3 of
3)
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/25/2008 4:36:00 PM

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From "John Barton" <jax760@yahoo.com>
(jax760 at yahoo.com)

AA in South Orange, New Jersey (3 of 3)

The History of Alcoholism and Alcoholics Anonymous
in South Orange, New Jersey

Section 3 (of 3)

Shortly after, probably in late June or early July, the New Jersey Group of
Alcoholics Anonymous began meeting at the South Orange home of Herb
Debevoise on
Hartford Road. At this time, the group was beginning to grow and had about
15
members.

During 1939, A.A Groups would also start in Detroit, Chicago and Washington
D.C.
The New York group began meeting upstairs in the shop owned by Bert Taylor
in
Manhattan. In Akron, they continued to meet at the home of T. Henry and
Clarace
Williams as the Oxford Group. The Cleveland meeting was being held at the
home
of Abby Goldrick.
In early September, Hank Parkhurst had returned to drinking. Bill’s first
sponsee, the great promoter of the Big Book and the founder of A.A. in New
Jersey would never again return to A.A and enjoy sobriety. Hank would nurse
resentment against Bill for the rest of his life and cause division within
the
A.A. ranks in the months to come.

At the end of the summer of 1939, Bill and Lois moved in with Bob and Mag
Valentine. Their farmhouse was located in Bog Hollow near Monsey, NY. Bob
was a
member of the New Jersey Group with six months sobriety at the time.

On October 22, 1939 the first ever public meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous
was
held at the South Orange Community Center. A newcomer with just five months
of
sobriety, Gordon MacDougall, along with Herb Debevoise had arranged the
public
meeting space to accommodate the growing New Jersey Group who now had
between
twenty and twenty-five members attending its meetings. This meeting was held
on
Sunday evening at 5:30 PM and marked the start of regular Sunday night
meetings.
This could be considered the actual anniversary date of the South Orange
Sunday
Night Group that currently meets at 111 Irvington Ave. It was this group,
then
known as the New Jersey Group, that would become the “mother group” for
all of
New Jersey.

On January 1, 1940 the group produced a membership roster that is housed in
the
GSO archives. The survey was probably conducted in preperation for the
Rockefeller dinner held in February. The member list shows forty-one names,
but
indicates seven are no longer group members. Of the active members, there
are
several pioneers of A.A. and five people with between one and three years of
continuous sobriety. Another nineteen members have between three months and
one
year and six are working on ninety days.

The group claims an overall success rate of 73% with 46% getting and staying
sober on the first try. These were consistent with the fellowship’s report
to
the Rockefellers and the press. A.A. would continue to use the 50-25-25%
figures
quoted in the foreword to the second edition of the Big Book for many years
to
come. The membership of the New Jersey Group represented more than
twenty-three
towns including, South Orange, East Orange, Orange, West Orange, Bogota,
Jersey
City, Caldwell, Newark, Montclair, Upper Montclair, Irvington, Glen Ridge,
Bloomfield, Westwood, Millburn, Verona, Plainfield, Ridgewood, Hoboken,
Hackettstown and Roselle and two upstate New York towns.

Two of the newcomers with less than one year, Gordon MacDougall and Helen
Penhale would become active in group affairs and later appeared in one of
the
photographs in the Jack Alexander article of the Saturday Evening Post,
March 1,
1941. Both would hold trusted servant positions in the early years of the
group.
Lois’s diary, indicates that she and Bill attended the South Orange
meeting on
February 18, 1940 and then spent the night at the MacDougall’s East Orange
home.
As the membership in New Jersey grew many changes occurred. The New Jersey
Group
actually became a legal business entity with its incorporation in 1941. It
was
then legally know as A.A of New Jersey, Inc. This is of course prior to the
traditions being written and the incorporation of the NJ Group was done to
allow
it to conduct real estate transactions, purchase property, sign leases and
contracts, etc. Activities somewhat incompatible with today’s A.A.
traditions

In 1941, the New Jersey Group began to give birth to its children. The first
group to come out of South Orange was the Bloomfield Group via a tiny
meeting on
Washington Street in Newark. Next came Morristown followed by groups in
Camden,
Englewood and Fairlawn. The South Orange group also began holding a Tuesday
Luncheon meeting at the Howard Johnson’s in East Orange.

The New Jersey Group held an anniversary dinner on March 14, 1942 at the
Hotel
Suburban, 141 South Harrison Street in East Orange, NJ. The featured speaker
was
none other than Bill Wilson and the cost was a very pricey $2.50.

By 1943, there were growing groups in Newark and Montclair, and in 1944 the
Newark/Roseville group in association with dozens of A.A. members from local
groups formed a corporation called the Alanon Association and purchased a
building owned by the Roseville Athletic Association (Roseville A.A.) There
was
no need to change the name on the building! This is the beloved Alanon Club
that
we have today on 7th Avenue in Newark.

Growing A.A. in New Jersey led to the formation of New Jersey Intergroup
which
had its first offices at the Alanon Club. The Intergroup Committee of A.A.
of
New Jersey, Inc became official at a meeting held in May 1945 when the
Articles
of Association were adopted by the delegates representing sixteen A.A.
groups in
New Jersey. The first Intergroup office was some space set aside on the 2nd
floor of the club. It was a small office provided rent free by the club. The
only furnishings were a small desk, a few chairs and a telephone. The
secretary
of Intergroup became a full time employee receiving $35.00 per week. Keeping
with the tradition that groups should be self-supporting, Intergroup
requested a
monthly contribution of $.50 per member per month. Even though many groups
numbered over thirty members, Intergroup received only $5 – $10 monthly
from the
groups.

Intergroup originally held meetings twice a month, then switched to a
monthly
meeting being held on the first Monday of each month. New Groups in New
Jersey
would be asked to join and participate in the monthly meeting. Intergroup
was
responsible for booking the speaker commitments for the various institutions
such as Lyons, Greystone and the Essex County Penal Institute. Intergroup
published a booklet listing the different meetings available in New Jersey.
The
meeting book today still looks very much like the original except of course
in
the number of meetings.

In April of 1948, the Intergroup office was moved to bigger quarters at 944
Broad Street in Newark. Future moves of the office included Clinton Street
and
Maplewood, New Jersey.

In October of 1948, a pamphlet entitled “Facts about Intergroup” was
written
which described the formation of an Intergroup Committee and sold for $.10.
The
draft for this pamphlet was sent to the Alcoholic Foundation and the
response
was favorable that this type of system within A.A. was workable. The
pamphlet
was circulated by the Alcoholic Foundation to different parts of the world
and
served as a guide for the formation of other Central Offices and
Intergroups.
The Intergroup Committee can be considered the original central office
concept
within A.A.*

*Note: The above narrative was taken from a document titled Early History of
Intergroup which was found in the New Jersey Archives. It was written during
the
time period when Intergroup was located in Maplewood. At the time it was
written, the early history of A.A. was not sufficiently documented. The
first
Central Office of A.A. was actually formed in Cleveland in August of 1941 by
Clarence Snyder and Abby Goldrick in response to Cleveland’s explosive
growth.

Sources:
1. The Bible ASV
2. A Narrative Timeline of AA History 2007 – Arthur S.
3. Father Bill Wigmore – Austin Texas
4. Alcoholics Anonymous 2nd Edition - AAWS
5. Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age - AAWS
6. Pass it On - AAWS
7. Not God – Ernest Kurtz
8. Nancy Olsen
9. How it Worked – Mitchell K
10. Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions – AAWS
11. The Varieties of Religious Experience – William James
12. History of the Big Book – Don B.
13. Lois Remembers
14. Various Postings on AA History Lovers Group – Yahoo
15. Various writings of Bill W. AA Grapevine.

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++++Message 5323. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Coffee pots , kitchen floors,
porches, and trees
From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/22/2008 5:20:00 PM

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Recently at Dr Bob's childhood home in St
Johnsbury, Vermont, we were able to get
souvenirs of the house as they were doing
remodeling. I took some wood and a couple of
old blacksmithed nails. A tree that was over
200 years old was being chopped down on the
property and we took some of the tree also.

Years ago the Founders Foundation in Akron
asked for contributions for the preservation
of the Dr. Bob home. Cards with pictures of
Dr Bob and Anne were sent out by Ray G , the
Archivist at Dr. Bob's house. A piece of the
porch was sent out to those who contributed.
Does anyone know how many pieces of wood
were sent out?

YIS
Shakey Mike
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

P.S. A joke amongst the group of us who went
there is that we can sell the wood from the
tree on E-Bay.

P.P.S. I'm glad that Dale didn't ask for a
piece of the toilet. But probably more puking
went on there than the linoleum.

- - - -

In a message dated 10/22/2008 1:20:02 P.M.
Eastern Daylight Time, forrestdalejackson@yahoo.com writes:

I was good to see Dr. Bob's house again. The
last time I was there they were tearing up the
floor in the kitchen to replace it. I asked
them if I could have some of the old linoleum
flooring (cause that's where the old drunks
puked) and they gave me some. Other visitors
to the house at the same time got some pieces.
I hoped they saved some for their archives
because my piece is in the Alabama Archives.

Dale

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++++Message 5324. . . . . . . . . . . . The Tablemate discussions (Detroit
Pamphlet )
From: David Jones . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/23/2008 6:02:00 PM

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Hi Guys,

My name is David, and I'm from the UK, some
of you know me well, others not so well.

I'm attempting to start a new meeting here in
Manchester in the UK, and was thinking of doing
it along the lines of the Tablemate discussions
(the "Detroit Pamphlet" or "Washington D.C.
Pamphlet").

Has anyone had any experience of a meeting of
this type. If so how was it received? What are
the pros/cons? What are you thoughts?

I invite and respect your opinions on this.

God bless

Dave

<jonesd926@aol.com>
(jonesd926 at aol.com)

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++++Message 5326. . . . . . . . . . . . Ralph Pfau: recordings and "Contact
with God" book
From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/23/2008 10:06:00 AM

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I have been trying to find out why SMT's 30
Golden Recordings, were pressed by Artists
Records for SMT Guild at PO Box 313 Indiana-
polis 6, Indiana and sold for $45.00 thru
April 30,1976 and also pressed by RCA in
Feb 1964 for $46.95 to a PO Box 1194
Indianapolis 6, Indiana.

Naturally, the only RCA pressing that I don't
have is entitled "Sense of Humor."

Glenn C.,our esteemed Moderator, spoke at the
NAW (National Archives Workshop) on Father
Ralph Pfau and the Golden Books. His talk
(handout of 7 pages) was a short outline of
Father John Doe's life and work.

[FULL TEXT of Glenn C.'s talk at:
http://hindsfoot.org/pflou1.html
http://hindsfoot.org/PfLou2.html
http://hindsfoot.org/PfLou3.html
Given in Clarksville, Indiana (across the
Ohio River from Louisville, Kentucky) on
September 29, 2001.]

He mentions Father Ralph's Golden books and
his three other books called "Sobriety and
Beyond,"Sobriety Without End" and "Prodigal
Shepherd."

Does anyone know why there were 2 companies
pressing these excellent talks? I recently
read another book by the Father titled
"Contact with God" and not too much is
reported on this book. It was published in
1959 by SMT (Society of Matt Talbot) at the
Box 1194 address. It is 93 pages covered in
blue velvet. Each page is a different story
or topic dealing with Alcoholism/Recovery.

I know at least one of you knows the answer.

ODAAT
Shakey Mike Gwirtz
Hardcore Group of AA

**************

From <glennccc@sbcglobal.net>
(glennccc at sbcglobal.net)

Mike,

Several years ago, Frank Nyikos and I did a
long interview in Indianapolis with one of
Father Ralph's nieces.

The SMT Guild (Society of Matt Talbot) was
simply Father Ralph.

(Just as "Coll-Webb Co., Publishers" was just
Ed Webster, who wrote the Little Red Book, and
his fellow AA member Barry Collins.)

- - - -

From the talk at the NAW:

"Chaplain of the Good Shepherd Convent in
Indianapolis from 1950 till his death in 1967."

"Ralph finally found a truly ideal base of
operations there in Indianapolis, where he
could continue his speaking and writing, and
his spiritual retreats, with a support staff
and no outside distractions. In the Spring of
1950, he moved into the Good Shepherd Convent
in Indianapolis. His ostensible title was
chaplain, which meant that he was supposed to
say masses for the nuns and hear confessions,
but they allowed him to travel as much as he
wanted to. Mother Austin, the mother superior,
assigned three of the Magdalen nuns (who were
cloistered and could not leave the convent
grounds) to become his secretaries, file clerks,
printers, and shipping clerks. She gave him a
three-room suite: one was a large office for
general purposes, another served as the printing
room, and the smallest served as Ralph’s private
office during the day and his bedroom at night."

- - - -

Ralph's niece said that he had some of the
Golden Books printed at St. Meinrad Archabbey
in southern Indiana, but I got the impression
from her that he had used more than one printing
facility over the years. I would presume that
each time he looked at the piles of books,
pamphlets, and phonograph records piled up in
his rooms at the convent, and decided that he
needed to restock one or more items, he looked
around for the cheapest price and the best
deal. But the last of the three nuns who were
his helpers died several years ago, so I am
not sure who we could ask. I have so far been
unable to locate any collection of his papers.
I don't know where they went. The Indianapolis
diocesan archives has only a relatively few
items pertaining to him, and no collections
of correspondence.

- - - -

I am not a collector, so I have never gone
through trying to tabulate these things. But
the pre-Hazelden printings of the Golden Books
which I have in my possession all give the P.O.
Box 313 address, over a wide range of different
dates: 1973, 1974, 1975, and even 1989, 1991,
and 1994.

The largest collection I have seen of Father
Ralph's works is in the archives at the
Indianapolis intergroup office. Perhaps
someone there can give us more information
(including the issue of the two different
post office box numbers).

And in general, I am sure that there are
lots of people who know a whole lot more
than I do about the things you want to
find out.

- - - -

Another of Father Ralph's nieces took over
distributing the books and pamphlets and so
on after his death in 1967, but she eventu-
ally grew too old to handle it, and made
arrangements for Hazelden to take over the
printing and distribution of her uncle's works.

Hazelden has the phonograph recordings still
available, but as tape cassettes instead of
phonograph disks.

- - - -

I saw a copy of "Contact with God" once in
an archivist's collection, and tried to get
him to let me make a photocopy of the book,
but to no avail. I would deeply appreciate
anyone who could obtain a photocopy of it
for me to use in my research. Again, I'm
not a collector. A readable photocopy works
just fine for my purposes.

Indiana Glenn

P.S. Mike, there's a good photo of me, hard
at work moderating this group, at the top
of this webpage, for any who are interested:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indiana_Jones

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++++Message 5327. . . . . . . . . . . . 4th edition authors
From: Patricia . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/26/2008 12:41:00 AM

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Where can I find a list of the authors of
the stories in the 4th edition of Alcoholics
Anonymous?

Patricia

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++++Message 5328. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Oldest AA meeting place:
Morristown, New Jersey
From: Stephen Gentile . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/25/2008 5:28:00 PM

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As per the Church's Vestry the first meeting
of the Morristown group was held on Wednesday
November 27 (the day before Thanksgiving) 1940,
and sometime after, it was moved to Sundays.

Kindest Regards, Stephen A. Gentile

- - - -

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.comFrom: jax760@yahoo.comDate: Wed, 22 Oct
2008
19:20:29 -0700Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Oldest AA meeting place:
Morristown, New Jersey

According to documents in the GSO archives (copies in NJ archives) Dr
Malcolm T.
wrote to the Foundation office on 3/18/41 requesting to start a meeting in
Morristown, New Jersey. Ruth Hock put him in touch with Bill Ruddell. Group
is
listed in June 1941 correspondence from Ruth Hock with 10 members, Mark D.
was
the contact. Meeting would appear to have started sometime between 3/18/41
and
6/41. Best Regards John B- - - ---- On Fri, 10/10/08, Stephen Gentile
<sagentile@hotmail.com> wrote:Church of the Redeemer 26 South Street
Morristown
New Jersey November 1940 as per archived Redeemer Pamphlet from the
church.Sunday night speaker meeting2nd oldest meeting in New Jersey, oldest
in
same location.Kindest Regards, Steve G.

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++++Message 5329. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Bill W.''s royalties from the
Big Book
From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/25/2008 8:54:00 PM

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Hi Bailey -

The source is "AA Comes of Age" pg 195.

- Arthur

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Baileygc23@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2008 8:30 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Bill W.'s royalties from the Big Book

Thanks for that information, Arthur. I thought
Bill W was making money off the book from the
start.

How authentic do you think was the story of
Father Dowling talking Bill W into taking
royalties?

- - - -

In a message dated 10/22/2008 1:42:17 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
ArtSheehan@msn.com writes:

... Bill W assigned all author's
royalties from the Big Book to the Alcoholic
Foundation around September 1938. On April 22,
1940, Bill W and Hank P gave up their stock
in Works Publishing Co with a written
stipulation that Dr Bob and Anne would receive
10% royalties on the Big Book for life. Bill
did not start receiving royalties from Big
Book sales until after the US entered World
War II in December 1941.

Cheers
Arthur

------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

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++++Message 5330. . . . . . . . . . . . Early AA Group Start Dates
From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/23/2008 9:30:00 PM

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Can anyone provide substantiation for group
start dates as follows:

Arkansas: Little Rock (April 19, 1940)
Virginia: Richmond (June 6, 1940)
California: San Francisco (1940)?
Ohio: Dayton (July 8,1940)
Ohio: Toledo (Sept 1940)

Thanks in advance for any help provided.

John B

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++++Message 5331. . . . . . . . . . . . AAâs First Meeting on the West
Coast
From: bruceken@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/25/2008 2:21:00 PM

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AAâs First Meeting on the West Coast
(Adapted from C.N.C.A History, prepared by the CNCA Archives Committee,
September 1984)

The book Alcoholics Anonymous first appeared in April 1939. The handful of
recovered drunks who had put it together in Akron, New York, Cleveland and
Chicago, in an effort to make their program available to every alcoholic who
wanted to get well, still needed a way to distribute it. One of their number
in
New York, a newly sober Irishman by the name of Morgan, said he knew the
the nationally known radio commentator, Gabriel Heatter very well. He
contacted Heatter and sure enough the national broadcast was planned.

The other AAs were delighted, but they were also concerned. The date for
the program was a week away and there was a fear that Morgan, following an
old
pattern, might get drunk the day of the show. That would be a calamity! The
solution? They very gently told Morgan that he would have to be locked up
until the night of the broadcast. But where? Then it was recalled that one
of their more prosperous newcomers had a membership in the Downtown Athletic
Club. As AAâs founder, Bill W. put it, âGrumbling loudly, Morgan was
conducted into captivity. For several days we took turns staying with him
around
the clock, never letting him out of our sight.â

Thus it was that in April of 1939, Gabriel Heatter aired the following
story as part of his show âWe the Peopleâ.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
-----------

HEATTER

The man beside me now has had one of the most gripping and dramatic
experiences Iâve ever heard. Iâm not going to tell you his name. And
when you hear
what he has to say I think you will understand why. But after checking the
facts the Listeners Committee of We the People decided to grant him time
because they feel that if one person is helped by hearing his story, then WE
THE
PEOPLE will have done a real service. All right, sir.

ANONYMOUS

Six months ago I got out of an insane asylum. Iâd been sent there because
I
was drinking myself to death. But the doctors said they could do nothing
for me. And only four years ago I was making $20,000 a year. I was married
to a swell girl and had a young son. But I worked hard and like many of my
friends - I used to drink to relax. Only they knew when to stop. I
didnât.
And pretty soon I drank myself out of my job. I promised my wife Iâd
straighten out. But I couldnât. Finally she took the baby and left me.

The Next year was like a nightmare. I was penniless. I went out on the
streets - panhandled money for liquor. Every time I sobered up - I swore not
to touch another drop.

But if I went a few hours without a drink - Iâd begin to cry like a baby,
and
tremble all over. One day after I left the asylum I met a friend of mine.
He took me to the home of one of his friends. A bunch of men were sitting
around, smoking cigars, telling jokes - having a great time. But I noticed
they werenât drinking. When Tom told me theyâd all been in the same
boat I
was
- I couldnât believe him. But he said. âSee that fellow? Heâs a
doctor.
Drank himself out of his practice. Then he straightened out. Now heâs
head
of a big hospital.â Another big strapping fellow was a grocery clerk.
Another the vice-president of a big corporation. They got together five
years
ago. Called themselves Alcoholics Anonymous. And theyâd worked out a
method
of recovery. One of their most important secrets was helping the other
fellow. Once they began to follow it the method proved successful and helped
others get on their feet - they found they could stay away from liquor.

Gradually - those men helped me back to life. I stopped drinking. Found
courage to face life again. Today Iâve got a job - and Iâm going to
climb
back to success.

Recently we wrote a book called âAlcoholics Anonymousâ. Working on
that
book made me realize how much other people had suffered - how they had gone
through the same thing I did. Thatâs why I wanted to come on this
program.
I
wanted to tell people who are going through that torment - if they sincerely
want to - they can come back. Take their place in society once again.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
--------------------------------------

Among the many listeners to that show across the country was a woman, Mrs.
Gordon Oram, a non-alcoholic, who ran a boarding house at 51 Potomac street
in
San Francisco.

Mrs. Oram had a boarder, a salesman, named Ted C. She liked him, but was
concerned about him. He had been in and out of state hospitals and jails
because of his drinking. He considered himself one of the âworst
alcoholicsâ in
California.

After hearing the Heatter radio program Mrs. Oram wrote to the New York
office of Alcoholics Anonymous and obtained a copy of the book, Alcoholics
Anonymous for Ted. Others in the Bay Area had also heard the program or read
an
article, âAlcoholics and Godâ, in the Liberty Magazine September 30,
1939
issue
and they too had contacted AAâs New York office.

So it happened, that when an AA member from New York, Ray W., came to San
Francisco for a sales training course in November of that year he brought
with
him a list of those who had made inquiries. Among them was Mrs. Oramâs
boarder, Ted.

From his room in the Clift Hotel on Geary Street, Ray called those on his
list. He finally arranged for some of them to meet with him in his room on
Tuesday, November 21, 1939 -- a beautiful evening much like today

It was there that the first meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous on the West
Coast
was held. Aside from Ray and Ted, there were two others present, Don B. and
Dave L. and the meeting lasted about two hours.

Ray then turned his local contacts over to the three local men and the four
of them began to contact the people on the list. Aside from San Francisco,
some of the contacts were from the East Bay, specifically Berkeley, Oakland
and Alameda.
Ray reported back to New York on that first meeting:

The Clift
SAN FRANCISCO

Nov. 23-â39

Works Publishing Co.
17 Williams St.
Newark, N.J.
Miss R. Hock, Secây -

Dear Miss Hock -

You probably think I am an awful piker for not having acknowledged your
letters sooner.
As a matter of fact I have seen quite a number of individuals whose
names you sent - some of them several times. I wont go into detail here
except
to say that I had three (3) of the best âbetsâ - Ted C , Dave L , and
Don
B for several hours with the result that they are going to start a group
here and start in by taking care of all the others who wrote you. Dave had
his
secretary make carbons of the lists you sent and I started them in by having
them make some âdatesâ with some of our prospects over the phone from
my
room.
I talked to them first then turned the phone over to the boys here.
Things look better than I would have hoped for.
You know, I had the misguded idea that I had been busy at other times in
my life, but until I made this trip I didnât know what it was to be busy.
They have been âon my neckâ day and night. You will hear from some of
them
and I will give you all the dope when I get back.

(At this point Ray spent two paragaphs on other matters)

Will be back Tuesday and give you a ring.
Best regards to everyone
Ray W

As Ray mentioned, it had become clear that they would need to form an AA
group in San Francisco, where they all could meet regularly. Mrs. Oram
offered
her kitchen as a meeting place. So shortly before Chistmas, 1939, the first
AA
group, the âSan Francisco Groupâ began meeting in Mrs. Oramâs
kitchen, and
later in various membersâ homes. In October of 1940 they found a more or
less
permanent site for their meetings in the Telegraph Hill Community House at
1736 Stockton Street in North Beach.

Gabriel Heatter had said that if just one person were helped by hearing the
story he aired on the radio, it would be of real service. Well, many more
than one person were helped as a result of that broadcast and what followed
it.
Today, 60 years after that first meeting, there are over 600 AA groups in
San
Francisco alone, many thousands more in California and other parts of the
west.

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++++Message 5332. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA in South Orange, New Jersey
(1 of 3)
From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/26/2008 8:35:00 AM

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The following was updated in the posted
document.

In the fall of 1935, a little band of
recovering drunks had formed and began
attending Oxford Group meetings in Brooklyn
at Bill & Lois's house at 182 Clinton
Street. These meetings included Bill and
his wife Lois, Hank and his wife Kathleen,
and John Mayo. Hank (The Unbeliever), and
Fitz (Our Southern Friend) had their stories
included in the first edition of the Big
Book. Pass it On indicates that there were
other attendees at these Tuesday night
meetings including Ebby Thatcher who had
moved in with the Wilson's, Shep Cornell,
Freddie B (The Chemistry Professor) Brooke
B. (from Calvary House) and Alec (The Finn)
who had also moved in with the Wilson's.

In later years, Jerseyites Bill Ruddell and
his wife Kathleen, Herb Debevoise and his wife
Margaret from South Orange and Ernest McKenzie
from Westwood would also attend the Tuesday
night meetings. At the close of 1935, there
were two growing bands of sober alcoholics
within the Oxford Groups. The Akron contingent
consisting of Dr. Bob, Bill Dotson and third
recruit named Phil Smith. The New York
contingent consisted of Bill Wilson, Hank
Parkhurst and Fitz Mayo. Other members in both
contingents had not yet achieved sobriety or
were continuously slipping.

- - - -

>
> From "John Barton" <jax760@...>
> (jax760 at yahoo.com)
>
> AA in South Orange, New Jersey (1 of 3)
>
> The History of Alcoholism and Alcoholics Anonymous
> in South Orange, New Jersey
>
> Section 1 (of 3)

In the fall of 1935, a little band of recovering drunks had formed
and began attending Oxford Group meetings in Brooklyn at Bill &
Lois's house at 182 Clinton Street. These meetings included Bill and
his wife Lois, Hank and his wife Kathleen, Fitz Mayo, Bill R. and his
wife Kathleen, and two other New Jerseyites, Herb Debevoise and his
wife Margaret from South Orange and Ernest McKenzie from Westwood.
Hank (The Unbeliever) and Fitz (Our Southern Friend) had their
stories included in the first edition of the Big Book. Pass it On
indicates that there were other attendees at these Tuesday night
meetings including Ebby Thatcher who had moved in with the Wilson's,
Shep Cornell, Freddie B (The Chemistry Professor) Brooke B. (from
Calvary House) and Alec who had also moved in with the Wilson's.

At the close of 1935, there were two growing bands of sober
alcoholics within the Oxford Groups. The Akron contingent consisting
of Dr. Bob, Bill Dotson and third recruit named Phil Smith. The New
York contingent consisted of Bill Wilson, Hank Parkhurst and Fitz
Mayo. Other members in both contingents had not yet achieved sobriety
or were continuously slipping.

At the close of 1935 there were three New Jersey members of A.A.,
Hank Parkhurst of Teaneck, Herb Debevoise of South Orange, and Ernest
McKenzie of Westwood.

>

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++++Message 5333. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: 4th edition authors
From: Laurence Holbrok . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/26/2008 10:08:00 PM

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The West Baltimore Group has a list of
biographies of Big Book story authors:
<http://www.a-1associates.com/westbalto/HISTORY_PAGE/Authors.htm>

SIlkworth.net has a pretty decent listing:
http://silkworth.net/aabiography/storyauthors.html

AA Bibliography has another:
http://www.aabibliography.com/big_book_stories1.html

Barefoot's world has a historical list of
folks mentioned in the BB that's real
interesting:
http://www.barefootsworld.net/aapeople.html

The West Baltimore Group has a similar list:
http://www.a-1associates.com/westbalto/PEOPLES%20&%20PLACES/NamesAAhist.htm

The West Baltimore Group also has a list of who what based on the 3rd
edition:
http://www.a-1associates.com/westbalto/HISTORY_PAGE/BBWhoWhat.htm

Larry Holbrook
Email@LaurenceHolbrook.com
(410) 802-3099

- - - -

From: "rick tompkins" <ricktompkins@comcast.net>
(ricktompkins at comcast.net)

It does not disappoint me that anonymity is
protected for the authors of the new personal
stories inserted in the 4th Edition. A few
have taken to the Speaker Circuit for AA
conference weekends, and usually simply state
their first name and last name initial.

The names and biographies of authors (now
deceased) whose stories appeared in earlier
editions are available in many places (see
above).

But the new authors whose stories were included
in the Fourth Edition don't qualify, and they
just might object to anyone breaking their
anonymity.

Remember, it's AA principles that are more
important than AA personalities.

Rick, Illinois

- - - -

Thanks also to:

DOROTHY BENSON <dd11983@yahoo.com>

"jm48301" <jm48301@aol.com>
James Bliss <james.bliss@comcast.net>

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++++Message 5334. . . . . . . . . . . . This I Know
From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/27/2008 8:07:00 AM

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This I Know

I know not by what methods rare,
But this I know - God answers prayer.
I know that He has given His Word,
Which tells me prayer is always heard -
That will be amswered, soon or late,
And so I pray and calmly wait.

I know not if the blessing sought,
Will come in just the way I thought -
But leave my prayers with Him alone,
Whose Will is wiser than my own -
Assured that He will grant my quest,
Or send some answer far more blest.

- - - -

Eddie Cushing
A very early member of the "Hole-In-The-Ground",
one of the first AA groups in Los Angeles,
California. He studied for the priesthood,
was thrown out of the seminary, and became a
comedian. Over the years he wrote a lot of
AA poetry.

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++++Message 5336. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Early AA Group Start Dates
From: Dolores . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/29/2008 10:18:00 AM

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Hi,

I believe it would be of interest to know
that the first AA group in Europe -IRELAND-
was started in 1946, followed by London in
1947 and then on the Continent in 1948
in Christ Church in Frankfurt, Germany,
Munich, Germany and Bremen Germany.

The first AA meeting held in Paris France
was in 1948. Bill and Lois visited the group
on their visit to Europe in 1950.

I thought you might be interested to hear
about early meetings in Europe.

Yours in AA,
Dolores CER Archives

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++++Message 5337. . . . . . . . . . . . 1st & 2nd edit. Big Book cover font
From: dan . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/29/2008 12:26:00 PM

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Does anybody know the exact font name of the
font used on the Cover and Dust cover jackets
on the 1st & 2nd Edition Big Book?

The closest I could get was Apricot Ligature 1
but there were small differences.

Thanks for any help.

Dan R

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++++Message 5338. . . . . . . . . . . . Big Book Sales
From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/30/2008 10:44:00 AM

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Good morning. I have heard for many years
now that the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous
is the second most sold book of all time,
second only to the Bible. If this was true,
I would think that this status may have
changed by now because of the popularity of
the Harry Potter books & mega-selling authors
like Eckhart Tolle. Does anyone have any
statistical proof or articles about whether
it was true that the Big Book was or is the
second most sold book of all time? Thanks
& God bless.

Just Love,
Barefoot Bill

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++++Message 5339. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA addresses for Google Earth
search
From: Pete . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/30/2008 10:23:00 PM

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Just a thought I've been rolling around for
a while. Seems to me a number of us interested
in the history and historical sites of AA
would enjoy having a Google Earth map with
all the significant AA places marked and
properly identified for AA interest. Then
when any of us are traveling we could be aware
of sites to perhaps visit on our trips.

I made the trip to East Dorset and then to
Stepping Stones and 182 Clinton St. and the
AA offices in New York but missed other
points I wished I had know about and included
in that trip. The tombstone in London,
Jung's practice site, etc. in Europe and
many other places could keep others interested
in more travel to eyeball the actual places
so intertwined in our history.

Any such web site started or planned?

Pete K.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 5340. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Big Book Sales
From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/1/2008 5:52:00 PM

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Bill - do a Google search on the string "all
time best-selling books."

Wikipedia, among others, has an interesting
list but the Big Book has been omitted. I
can't vouch for the accuracy of the Wikipedia
numbers stated but in relative order the
books listed are probably correct.

From information derived from all the final
General Service Conference reports from 1951
to 2008, there were approximately 229,700
Big Book distributed prior to 1952 and a
total of approximately 28,376,000 Big Books
distributed from 1935 through 2007. The term
"distributed" is used by GSO since some
portion of the totals are given away as
opposed to being sold.

So the Big Book is way down the list of
all-time bestsellers - roughly somewhere
between the 45th to 50th all time best seller.
The Big Book did not reach the 1 million
mark until 1973.

From the Wikipedia numbers it also looks like
Chairman Mao (of the People's Republic of
China) is the all-time bestselling author.
With a captive audience (quite literally) of
a few billion, it looks like no one will ever
come close to beating him (3 titles with an
estimate of 1 to 6.5 billion). His most
popular title is oddly enough called "The
Little Red Book" (Quotations of Chairman Mao).

Cheers
Arthur

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bill Lash
Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 9:45 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Big Book Sales

Good morning. I have heard for many years
now that the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous
is the second most sold book of all time,
second only to the Bible. If this was true,
I would think that this status may have
changed by now because of the popularity of
the Harry Potter books & mega-selling authors
like Eckhart Tolle. Does anyone have any
statistical proof or articles about whether
it was true that the Big Book was or is the
second most sold book of all time? Thanks
& God bless.

Just Love,
Barefoot Bill

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++++Message 5341. . . . . . . . . . . . Harper 12x12s
From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/2/2008 9:46:00 AM

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What were the printing runs for the Harper
12x12s?

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

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++++Message 5342. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Big Book Sales
From: george cleveland . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/3/2008 12:46:00 PM

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This is such a great category of question.
I immediately knew it probably couldn't be
and my first thought was Mao's Little Red
Book--not OURS!!!

I realize Wikipedia is to be taken with a
grain of salt, but here is their take on the
subject:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_books

George

- - - -

Bill Lash <barefootbill@optonline.net> wrote:

Good morning. I have heard for many years
now that the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous
is the second most sold book of all time,
second only to the Bible. If this was true,
I would think that this status may have
changed by now because of the popularity of
the Harry Potter books & mega-selling authors
like Eckhart Tolle. Does anyone have any
statistical proof or articles about whether
it was true that the Big Book was or is the
second most sold book of all time? Thanks
& God bless.

Just Love,
Barefoot Bill

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++++Message 5343. . . . . . . . . . . . The First 25 AA Groups
From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/2/2008 5:42:00 PM

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Below is a recent effort that I am posting
so the members of this forum can contribute
to it. I would appreciate any additions or
subtractions from this list as long as they
can be substantiated reasonably well.

TIMELINE OF THE FIRST 25 A.A. GROUPS

by the Big Book Study Group
of South Orange, New Jersey

1. Ohio: Akron (June/July 1935)
2. New York City (Fall of 1935)
3. Ohio: Cleveland - Abby G. Group (May 11,
1939)
4. New Jersey: The New Jersey Group (May 14,
1939)
5. Connecticut: Greenwich Blythewood Sanitarium
(June 1939)
6. Illinois: Chicago (September 13, 1939)
7. Ohio: Cleveland – Borton Group (November
16, 1939)
8. Ohio: Cleveland – Orchard Grove (November
20, 1939)
9. Washington, D.C. (December 1939)
10. California: San Francisco (December 1939)
11. California: Los Angeles (December 19, 1939)
12. New York: Orangeberg - Rockland State
Hospital (December 1939)
13. Michigan: Detroit (December 1939)
14. Pennsylvania: Philadelphia (February 13,
1940)
15. Texas: Houston (March 15, 1940)
16. Arkansas: Little Rock (April 19, 1940)
17. Indiana: Evansville (April 23, 1940)
18. Ohio: Cleveland – West 50th Street Group
(May 8, 1940)
19. Virginia: Richmond (June 6, 1940)
20. Maryland: Baltimore (June 16, 1940)
21. Ohio: Dayton (July 8, 1940)
22. Ohio: Cleveland – Berea (August 27, 1940)
23. Ohio: Cleveland – Westlake (September 20,
1940)
24. Ohio: Toledo (September 1940)
25. Ohio: Youngstown (September 1940)

Below is a comparison of the two lists that
exist detailing what AA considered to be the
first locations where meetings were being held
or "groups" established. From this, we have
worked to establish a timeline of the first
25 AA groups.
____________________

In an October 1, 1940 report
to the Trustees, Bill W.
estimated the A.A.
membership as follows:

Akron, Ohio 200
Jackson, Mich. 15
Baltimore, Md 12
Little Rock, Ark. 27
Camden, NJ. 5
Los Angeles, Cal. 100
Chicago, Ill. 100
New York City 150
Cleveland, Ohio 450
Philadelphia, Pa 75
Coldwater, Mich. 8
Richmond, Va. 20
Dayton, Ohio 6
San Francisco, Cal. 15
Detroit, Mich. 30
Toledo, Ohio 6
Evansville, Ind. 24
Washington DC 100
Greenwich, Conn. 25
Waunakee, Wis. 20
Houston, Texas 30
Youngstown, Ohio 15

22 Cities 1433 Total
____________________

The following is a list of communities
where A.A. is well established and
weekly meetings are held: (11/14/1940)
A.A Bulletin # 1

Akron, Ohio
Jackson, Michigan
Baltimore, MD
Little Rock, Arkansas
(Camden, NJ, include with Philadelphia)
Los Angeles, Calif.
Chicago, Illinois
New York City (and South Orange, NJ)
Cleveland, Ohio
Philadelphia, PA.
Coldwater, Michigan
Richmond, VA.
Dayton, Ohio
San Francisco, Calif
Detroit, Michigan
Toledo, Ohio
Evansville, Indiana
Washington, D.C.
Greenwich, Conn.
Waunakee, Wisconsin
Houston, Texas
Youngstown, Ohio
____________________

Please note that Wisconsin & Coldwater remain
unsubstantiated by research. Jackson Group
# 1 disbanded according to Area 33 History
site.

Notes related to the formation of the groups.

A.A. Group # 1 Akron, Ohio
"The spark that was to flare into the first
A.A. group was struck at Akron, Ohio in June
1935, during a talk between a New York
stockbroker and an Akron physician."
(AABB 2nd Edition, p.xv)

Hence the two men set to work almost franti-
cally upon alcoholics arriving in the ward
of the Akron City Hospital. Their very first
case, a desperate one, recovered immediately
and became A.A. number three." (AABB 2nd
Edition, p.xvii)

This refers to Bill's and Dr. Bob's first
visit to A.A. Number Three. See the Pioneer
Section. This resulted in A.A.'s first group,
at Akron, Ohio, in 1935. (AABB 2nd Edition
p.156)

"Before our visit was over, Bill suddenly
turned to his wife and said, "Go fetch my
clothes, dear. We're going to get up and get
out of here." Bill D. walked out of that
hospital a free man never to drink again.
A.A.'s Number One Group dates from that
very day." - Bill W.(AAB 2nd Edition p.189)

"He came out of the hospital on the Fourth
of July, 1935." (DBGO p.85)

Author's Comments: If you read the Original
Manuscript of the book Alcoholics Anonymous,
it becomes abundantly clear in Chapter 11,
"A Vision for You" that the "Fellowship" of
Alcoholics Anonymous was alive and growing in
January of 1939.

"Then, in this eastern city there are informal
meetings such as we have described to you,
where you may see thirty or forty, there are
the same fast friendships, there is the same
helpfulness to one another as you find among
our western friends. There is a good bit of
travel between East and West and we foresee
a great increase in this helpful interchange.
Some day we hope that every alcoholic who
journeys will find a Fellowship of Alcoholics
Anonymous at his destination. To some extent
this is already true." (BBOM p.130)

The first 100, obviously considered themselves
part of the A.A. fellowship whether or not
they were specifically calling their "informal
meetings" A.A., OG, Drunk Squadrons, etc. We
think any debates whether the eastern and
western cities mentioned are or are not the
first "A.A." groups are pointless. Bill Wilson
and Bob Smith obviously considered their
respective groups to be numberss 1 & 2 and
that should set the standard by which we apply
our analysis.

The anniversary date for Akron Group # 1 seems
questionable. Bill however, tagged it as the
day that Bill Dotson was discharged from the
hospital. DBGO says this was July 4, 1935.

A.A. Group # 2 Brooklyn, New York
A second small group promptly took shape at
New York… (AABB 2nd Edition, p.xvii)

In the fall of 1935, Bill and Lois began to
hold weekly meetings in their home on Clinton
Street. (PIO p.162)

"…At this juncture, the meeting -- the first
meeting of the Manhattan Group, which really
took place in Brooklyn -- stopped, and it
stopped for a very good reason. That was that
the landlord set Lois and me out into the
street, and we didn't even have money to move
our stuff into storage. Even that and the
moving van -- that was done on the cuff. Well,
it was then the spring of 1939. Temporarily,
the Manhattan Group moved to Jersey. It
hadn't got to Manhattan yet .... Meanwhile,
the Manhattan Group moved to Manhattan for
the first time. The folks over here started
a meeting in Bert T.'s tailor shop. Good old
Bert is the guy who hocked his then-failing
business to save the book Alcoholics Anonymous
in 1939. In the fall, he still had the shop,
and we began to hold meetings there. Little
by little, things began to grow. We went from
there to a room in Steinway Hall, and we felt
we were in very classic and good company that
gave us an aura of respectability. Finally,
some of the boys -- notably Bert and Horace --
said, "A.A. should have a home. We really
ought to have a club." And so the old 24th
Street Club, which had belonged to the artists
and illustrators and before that was a barn
going back to Revolutionary times, was taken
over. I think Bert and Horace signed the first
lease."("The Road from the Table on Clinton
Street": Bill Wilson's Talk to the Manhattan
Group, NYC, 1955)

Author's Comments: This group was actually what
this writer terms "The Bill & Lois Wilson Road
Show." After being evicted from 182 Clinton
Street the New York contingent met everywhere
and anywhere over the next several months;
including Montclair, NJ, South Orange, NJ,
Flatbush in Brooklyn, Bert Taylor's Shop, Bert
Taylor's Loft, an apartment on West 72nd Street,
Blythewood, Rockland State Hospital, Steinway
Hall and finally the 24th Street Clubhouse.
(See PIO p.216-217) Based on Lois's comments,
Pass it On describes these as "At least a
dozen A.A. groups had evolved in the New York
Metropolitan area…" Unfortunately, this passage
is misleading. We can see that this was
actually a dozen different meeting locations
for the same group of 30 – 40 alcoholics. This
is clarified in Bill's talk to the Manhattan
Group in 1955. The previous paragraph in Pass
it On explains it better when it says: "When
they lived at Clinton Street, A.A. meetings
had been held there. A.A. followed Bill and
Lois wherever they went."

The New Jersey "contingent" split off from the
New York Group and remained in New Jersey when
the Montclair meeting ended in mid June of '39.
The NY contingent crossed the river back to
Manhattan and the Jerseyites began meeting in
South Orange at the home of Herb Debevoise
continuing what had been started in Montclair.

A.A. Group # 3 Cleveland, Ohio
On May 11, 1939, one month after the book had
been published, a meeting was held. It was a
meeting of "Alcoholics Anonymous." It was
a meeting held by, and for alcoholics and
their families only. Historian Mary C. Darrah
wrote:

"In the years 1935-1939, the Oxford meetings
provided a group experience for the early
alcoholics. A.A. did not meet as a separate
group officially named Alcoholics Anonymous
until May 1939 at the home of Abby G. in
Cleveland." (HIW p.141)

A.A. Group # 4 The New Jersey Group
Lois's diary entry for May 14, 1939 indicates
they went to the meeting at the Parkhurst's.
(PIO p.217)

AACOA p.11, "We attended New Jersey's first
AA meeting, held in the summer of 1939, at the
Upper Montclair home of Henry P…" (AACOA p.11)

A.A. Group # 5 Greenwich Connecticut
Marty pioneered a group in Greenwich so early
in 1939 that some folks now think this one
should carry the rating of A.A.s Group Number
Three. Backed by Dr. Harry and Mrs. Wylie,
owner of Blythewood, the first meetings were
held on the Sanitarium's grounds. (AACOA p.18-19)

In the summer of 1939 our New York member
Marty had sponsored a prospect named Nona.
(AACOA p.181)

"While Marty and Grenny were patients at
Blythewood Sanitarium in Greenwich, Connecticut,
the two of them together with Bill persuaded
Mrs. Wylie, the owner to let them hold meetings
there. (PIO p.216)

The first year was the hardest. I had plenty
of prospects but few results. All that long
hot summer I went into New York once a week
to the meeting, hoping a woman might appear,
find me, know that she was not alone and
unique, and stay .... Finally, in October,
came Nona, whom I had met when I entered the
sanitarium nearly two years before. She came
in wholeheartedly, a quiet girl not wanting to
be noticed, but she was there. Written by
Marty Mann - (For Men Only? Anonymous Grapevine
– June 1960)

Author's Comments: It is questionable whether
or not this was actually a "group" and not
just a meeting. The date is questionable as
well. Marty indicates in her GV article that
she was on the road attending meetings that
long hot summer; not exactly substantiating a
group resident in Greenwich at the time. In
AACOA Bill calls this meeting "a group" so who
are we to dispute that. This one may be subject
to further discussion.

A.A Group # 6 Chicago, Illinois
According to member list index cards kept by
the Chicago group, Sylvia's date of sobriety
was September 13, 1939 (www.barefootsworld.net,
Sylvia K.)

"He wrote to New York in September 1939 that
the A.A.s in Chicago were organizing a group
and would have regular meetings." (DBGO p.181)
Referring to a letter written by Earl T.

A.A. Group # 7 Cleveland, Ohio - Borton
Group Number Two in Cleveland was called the
Borton Group. This group met at the home of
T. E. Borton, a non-alcoholic friend of the
A.A. fellowship. The meeting was located at
2427 Roxboro Road in Cleveland. Its first
meeting was held on Thursday, November 16,
1939. (HIW p.150)

A.A. Group # 8 Cleveland, Ohio – Orchard Grove
Almost immediately thereafter, in another show
of what Clarence sarcastically called A.A.
"unity," they split again on November 20th.
Out of the Borton group was born the Orchard
Grove Group. The Orchard Group met on Monday
nights at 15909 Detroit Avenue. The Orchard
Group later changed its name to the Lakewood
Group. (HIW p.151-152)

A.A. Group # 9 Washington D.C.
At first he (Fitz) met with minimal success,
but by the fall of 1939 the nucleus of a small
group had been established in Washington. He
had been long a loner in Washington, but Fitz
was eventually joined by Hardin C. and
Bill A.2 and was also joined by Florence
Rankin.

Note 2. When Bill Wilson died in 1971, Donald
E. Graham, now the publisher of The Washington
Post, but then a young man learning the family
business from the ground up, and working as
a staff writer, interviewed me. Graham's story
says in part: "Bill A., an Arlington business-
man, recalled that in December 1939, when
Alcoholics Anonymous was a small, little-known
group, he went to New York to meet Mr. Wilson.
The next month Mr. Wilson helped start an AA
chapter here, the fourth in the country."

Sources:
"Alcoholics Anonymous", "Pass It On",
"Bill W." by Francis Hartigan, "History of
AA in Maryland" from the website of the West
Baltimore AA Group, private communications
from Lee C. Compiled by Nancy O.

Author's Comments: Based on the comments of
Bill A. this group would be December of 1939.
Arrival of Ned F. supports this. However,
actual start of Group may have been January
of 1940. See PIO p.257 N2 Washington Intergroup
History lists date as October 28, 1939 but this
is in variance with PIO. In lieu of discrepancy
we list this as the first group of December
1939.

A.A Group # 10 San Francisco, California
So it happened, that when an AA member from
New York, Ray W., came to San Francisco for a
sales training course in November of that year
he brought with him a list of those who had
made inquiries. Among them was Mrs. Oram's
boarder, Ted.

From his room in the Clift Hotel on
Geary Street, Ray called those on his list.
He finally arranged for some of them to meet
with him in his room on Tuesday, November 21,
1939.

It was there that the first meeting of Alco-
holics Anonymous on the West Coast was held.
Aside from Ray and Ted, there were two others
present, Don B. and Dave L. and the meeting
lasted about two hours.

As Ray mentioned, it had become clear that
they would need to form an AA group in San
Francisco, where they all could meet regularly.
Mrs. Oram offered her kitchen as a meeting
place. So shortly before Christmas, 1939,
the first AA group, the "San Francisco Group"
began meeting in Mrs. Oram's kitchen, and
later in various members' homes. In October
of 1940 they found a more or less permanent
site for their meetings in the Telegraph Hill
Community House at 1736 Stockton Street in
North Beach. (www.aasf.org) AA's First Meeting
on the West Coast(Adapted from C.N.C.A History,
prepared by the CNCA Archives Committee,
September 1984)

A.A. Group # 11 Los Angeles, California
She and Chuck came to Los Angeles just in
time to attend the first so-called "home"
meetings. This particular gathering was held
at Kaye's place on Benecia Avenue on December
19, 1939. It included Kaye and Johnny, Lee
and Chuck and a number of prospects. (ACOAA
p.92)

A.A. Group # 12 Rockland State Hospital, NY
First A.A. Group in mental institution,
Rockland State Hospital, NY (AACOA p.viii)

A.A. Group # 13 Detroit, Michigan
Archie T. went to Akron and spent ten and
one-half months living with Dr. Bob S. and
his wife. He says he got his AA direct from
one of the founders. Archie read Emmet Fox's
Sermon on the Mount, and he said it changed
his life.

In December, 1939, the first meeting of AA in
Michigan was held in Arch T.'s room on Merrick
Avenue in the Art Center in Detroit. Present,
besides Archie, were Mike E., who became member
#2 in Michigan, another alcoholic, and Sara
Klein, a non-alcoholic. (Copyright© 1999-2006
Alcoholics Anonymous General Services of
Southeast Michigan) http://www.aa-semi.org/

A.A. Group # 14 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
On February 13, 1940, with about two years of
sobriety, Jim and Rosa moved to the Philadelphia
area and started a group there.
(www.barefootsworld.net/aaburwell.html)

A.A. Group # 15 Houston, Texas
The first Houston A.A. meeting was held March
15, 1940, in a room in the YWCA Bldg. The
group continued to meet on Tuesdays with as
many as 25 attending -- but often a different
25 each time! Ed H. and Roy Y. tried to
educate ministers and doctors without much
success until they were referred to Dr. David
Wade at Galveston State Hospital. Dr. Wade was
to remain a good friend of A.A. (Bob P.
Unpublished AA History Manuscript)

A.A Group # 16 Little Rock, Arkansas
The first meeting of the three men - Sterling
C, Harlan N, and Bud G - as an AA group was
in late May 1940 in the insurance agency
office in the Wallace Bldg, Markham and Main
Streets. The group ran ads in the newspaper
as they continued to meet, and began to grow.
(Bob P. Unpublished AA History Manuscript)

A.A. Group # 17 Evansville, Indiana
J. D. Holmes and the First A.A. Group in
Indiana: Evansville, April 23, 1940. The man
who started A.A. in Indiana was a man named
James D. "J. D." Holmes. He was one of the
original Akron A.A. group. He got sober in
September 1936: if we count Bill W. and
Dr. Bob as numbers one and two, J. D. was
A.A. number ten. On May 30, 1938, he and his
wife Rhoda moved to Evansville, Indiana, which
is in the extreme southwestern part of the
state, on the banks of the Ohio River. He was
unable to get any other alcoholics in Evansville
to join him until the Big Book was published
in 1939. Dr. Bob sent him a copy of the Big
Book the minute it came off the press, and
with this new aid, he was able to reach out
to a local surgeon, Dr. Joe Welborn, after
Dr. Joe's drinking finally landed him in the
county jail in April of 1940. Dr. Joe brought
in other alcoholics who were patients of his,
and the first A.A. group in Indiana met on
Tuesday evening, April 23, 1940, in J. D.
and Rhoda's home at 420 S. Denby St. in
Evansville. (http://hindsfoot.org/nfirst.html)

A.A. Group # 18 Cleveland, Ohio
- West 50th Street
On May 1, 1940 the West 50th Street Group broke
away from the Orchard Grove Group taking four
members with them. The West 50th Street Group
had their first meeting on May 8th. By the end
of its first year, that group had eighty-seven
members. They met at 3241 West 50th Street on
Wednesday evenings. Its name was later changed
to the Brooklyn Group. (HIW p.169)

A.A. Group # 19 Richmond, Virginia
In the spring of 1940, Ted C from Richmond,
Virginia, was undergoing treatment at Rockland
State Hospital in New York - "the first
[hospital in the East) to enter into full
scale cooperation with AA." So the New York
office of AA, learning that Ted C was
returning to Richmond with a new business
connection, asked him to serve as the AA
contact there. One of the first referrals was
McChee B, who was helped by Ted. The two men
now hoped to start a group. The first AA
meeting in Virginia was held June 6, 1940 at
McChee's apartment with 12 present. However,
as Bill W later recalled, they "believed in
getting away from their wives and drinking
only beer." It didn't work, and the group
fell apart almost immediately. (Bob P. AA
History Manuscript)

Authors Comments: This group disbanded and
re-started the following year. We carry this
group here because it was listed in A.A.
Bulletin # 1, 11/14/1940, as an active
location.

A.A Group # 20 Baltimore Maryland
Jimmy (Burwell) was also responsible, later,
for the start of A.A. in Baltimore. The
second Baltimore meeting, held in June of
1940, was attended by six people; (PIO 258N)

On June 16, 1940, the two Jims met with three
other men at Ridgely's home on St. Paul Street.
Several days later, Burwell received a letter
in Philadelphia from a Baltimore lawyer who
wanted to help his alcoholic brother and
offered his office in the Munsey Building on
Fayette Street as a meeting place. On June 22,
1940, the six men held the second Baltimore AA
meeting in that office. (Nancy Olson- History
of AA in Maryland)

A.A. Group #21 Dayton, Ohio
Authors Comments: See note for Group # 25.
Trying to substantiate this date for Dayton.

A.A. Group # 22 Cleveland, Ohio – Berea Group
On August 27th, the Berea Group formed and met
at the home of Bob J. It had nine members and
at the end of its first year, had grown to
thirty members. On September 3rd, the group
moved from the home of Bob J. to St. Thomas
Episcopal Church Parish Hall in Berea. (HIWp.170)

A.A. Group # 23 Cleveland, Ohio – Westlake Group
On September 20th the Westlake Group branched
off from the Orchard Grove Group and began
meeting at the Hotel Westlake. When the
Westlake Group left Orchard Grove, it took
thirty members with it. The group later became
the Lake Shore Group. (HIW p.170)

A.A. Group # 24 Toledo, Ohio
Duke never did pick up another drink. A few
months later, in September of 1940, he and
the other Toledo members started their own
group. (DBGO p.254)

A.A Group # 25 Youngstown, Ohio
By September of 1940, Cleveland was reporting
to Bill in New York that, in addition to its
own six meetings and 400 – 500 members, Ohio
had meetings in Akron, Toledo, Youngstown,
Dayton, Raveena, Wooster, and Canton.
(DBGO p.262)

Authors Comments: "Meetings" do not constitute
"groups". We include Youngstown but not
Raveena, Wooster and Canton in accordance with
A.A. Bulletin # 1 November 14, 1940.

- - - -

Notes on Groups not listed but included in the
November 14, 1940 AA Bulletin

Jackson, Michigan – Group start date
unsubstantiated and group disbanded.

Then we heard from Tom B.:
Bud S. the electrician told me that Jackson
Group #1 folded after they lost their meeting
place when their landlord padlocked the hall.
The present Jackson Group, officially
registered in New York as Jackson Group #2,
held its first meeting on the first Sunday of
September 1945. Where the meeting was held
has been forgotten but the date was confirmed
by a copy of the minutes of business meetings
from 1950, 1951 and 1952 that I got from Bud C.
whose late brother-in-law had been group
secretary in those years. Barb S. borrowed the
notebooks to read over, and lost them all in
moving to Texas and then back to Jackson. Tom
says that Bud S. also told him that Al C. had
a coffee shop in the Otsego Hotel in the early
40's. One night each week, Al closed early so
that AA could meet in the coffee shop.
Copyright© 2006 The Jackson Group
http://www.aa-semi.org/

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++++Message 5344. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Harper 12x12s
From: bikergaryg@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/4/2008 8:10:00 AM

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What were the printing runs for the Harper
12x12s?

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

From: "JOHN WIKELIUS" <nov85@graceba.net>
Date: Tue Nov 4, 2008 8:51 pm
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Harper 12x12s justjohn1431946
Offline
Send Message
Edit Membership

1st printing D-C April 1953
2nd B-K February 1960
3rd Do not know the date- been asking. Someone know the information on
this.

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++++Message 5345. . . . . . . . . . . . from Works Publishing Co.
From: rick tompkins . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/6/2008 9:42:00 PM

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(typed letter to Solway, N.J., 25 miles northeast of Philadelphia,
Pennsylvania; it's probably still a small crossroads town.)

_____

WORKS PUBLISHING CO.

Church Street Annex, Post Office Box 657

New York City

May 4, 1939

Dear Sir:

Thank you for your inquiry regarding our book "Alcoholics
Anonymous".

The story behind this book is briefly as follows:

Over 150 chronic alcoholics have rehabilitated themselves from what

They have come to regard as an illness. These men and women, who had be-

lieved themselves weak-willed or victims of a habit, realized that society

does not shun a diabetic.doesn't blame a cripple.doesn't scorn a blind

man.and from that standpoint they began.

Approximately five years ago, a man pronounced incurably
alcoholic

began desperately to seek an answer. Through a lucky circumstance he
stumbled

upon a solution. He tried to pass it along to other chronic alcoholics, and

after several failures, he "clicked" with a man. He continued his efforts,
in

spite of other failures, until a third "man" got it. After a year of what

might be called cutting and fitting a pattern, there were three men who had

recovered. The next year added ten to the first three. The third year found

the thirteen increased to over thirty with a rising percentage of recoveries

as they developed a procedure. At the end of the fourth year over 150
chronic

alcoholics were doing no drinking whatsoever. Today, in the fifth year, the

number is increasing rapidly, with over fifty percent success of those ap-

proached.

These people, who dub themselves Alcoholics Anonymous, try
to keep

their anonymity because the could not carry on the business of earning

a living if presented with an overwhelming flood of appeals for personal

assistance.

However, they have written a book called "alcoholics
Anonymous" in

which they give a precise picture of their procedure. The book is published

by the Works Publishing Company, organized and financed mostly by small sub-

scriptions from the member themselves. The profits from the book are being

used at present to extend the work and to liquidate indebtedness incurred in

bringing the work to its present status.

The men concerned are not prohibitionists.however, they know
that

they, and many others like them, are unable to take so much as one drink

without disastrous results. Neither do they claim any mystic healing
methods.

We have gone into detail because, having suffered the
torments of the

malady of alcoholism ourselves, the extension of this work is of paramount

importance. The book is a sound starting point for the alcoholic who sin-

cerely wants to recover. Furthermore, the book is helpful to the family and

those in contact with the alcoholic, for it is necessary that they also
under-

stand the problem. The story of one man who rehabilitated himself with the

aid of the book alone is included in the volume "Alcoholics Anonymous."

Sincerely,

(signature)
R. Miller

RH.

_____

Hi group,

Placed in the AA Archives at the General Service Office long ago

and used with permission of the writer's surviving relative,

"Miller" is the maiden name of our Fellowship's pioneer
secretary, Ruth Hock. In her seven years time with

Honor Dealers, Works Publishing, and the Alcoholic Foundation

she typed thousands of outreach replies like this one,

with some using the 'Miller' signature.

Compound this with the 2.4 million Big Books distributed since

April 1939, her early efforts gave AA its best start to our growth

of geometric proportions!

Rick, Illinois

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 5346. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: from Works Publishing Co.
From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/7/2008 4:55:00 PM

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This answers a lot of questions:

AACOA has the post office box moving in 1940.
But according to this letter it moved in 1939.
This explains Hank's meltdown in June of 39
and his subsequent relapse in September of 39.

Is the date in Pass it On for the office move
still correct as 3/16/1940? How was this
established?

Best Regards

John B

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "rick tompkins"
<ricktompkins@...> wrote:
>
> (typed letter to Solway, N.J., 25 miles northeast of Philadelphia,
> Pennsylvania; it's probably still a small crossroads town.)
>
> _____
>
>
>
> WORKS PUBLISHING CO.
>
> Church Street Annex, Post Office Box 657
>
> New York City
>
>
>
>
>
> May 4, 1939
>
>
>
> Dear Sir:
>
>
>
> Thank you for your inquiry regarding our
book "Alcoholics
> Anonymous".
>
> The story behind this book is briefly as follows:
>
>
>
> Over 150 chronic alcoholics have rehabilitated themselves from what
>
> They have come to regard as an illness. These men and women, who
had be-
>
> lieved themselves weak-willed or victims of a habit, realized that
society
>
> does not shun a diabetic.doesn't blame a cripple.doesn't scorn a
blind
>
> man.and from that standpoint they began.
>
>
>
> Approximately five years ago, a man pronounced
incurably
> alcoholic
>
> began desperately to seek an answer. Through a lucky circumstance he
> stumbled
>
> upon a solution. He tried to pass it along to other chronic
alcoholics, and
>
> after several failures, he "clicked" with a man. He continued his
efforts,
> in
>
> spite of other failures, until a third "man" got it. After a year
of what
>
> might be called cutting and fitting a pattern, there were three men
who had
>
> recovered. The next year added ten to the first three. The third
year found
>
> the thirteen increased to over thirty with a rising percentage of
recoveries
>
> as they developed a procedure. At the end of the fourth year over
150
> chronic
>
> alcoholics were doing no drinking whatsoever. Today, in the fifth
year, the
>
> number is increasing rapidly, with over fifty percent success of
those ap-
>
> proached.
>
>
>
> These people, who dub themselves Alcoholics
Anonymous, try
> to keep
>
> their anonymity because the could not carry on the business of
earning
>
> a living if presented with an overwhelming flood of appeals for
personal
>
> assistance.
>
>
>
> However, they have written a book called "alcoholics
> Anonymous" in
>
> which they give a precise picture of their procedure. The book is
published
>
> by the Works Publishing Company, organized and financed mostly by
small sub-
>
> scriptions from the member themselves. The profits from the book
are being
>
> used at present to extend the work and to liquidate indebtedness
incurred in
>
> bringing the work to its present status.
>
>
>
> The men concerned are not prohibitionists.however,
they know
> that
>
> they, and many others like them, are unable to take so much as one
drink
>
> without disastrous results. Neither do they claim any mystic healing
> methods.
>
>
>
> We have gone into detail because, having suffered
the
> torments of the
>
> malady of alcoholism ourselves, the extension of this work is of
paramount
>
> importance. The book is a sound starting point for the alcoholic
who sin-
>
> cerely wants to recover. Furthermore, the book is helpful to the
family and
>
> those in contact with the alcoholic, for it is necessary that they
also
> under-
>
> stand the problem. The story of one man who rehabilitated himself
with the
>
> aid of the book alone is included in the volume "Alcoholics
Anonymous."
>
>
>
>
Sincerely,
>
>
(signature)
> R. Miller
>
> RH.
>
>
>
> _____
>
>
>
> Hi group,
>
> Placed in the AA Archives at the General Service Office long ago
>
> and used with permission of the writer's surviving relative,
>
> "Miller" is the maiden name of our Fellowship's pioneer
>
> secretary, Ruth Hock. In her seven years time with
>
> Honor Dealers, Works Publishing, and the Alcoholic Foundation
>
> she typed thousands of outreach replies like this one,
>
> with some using the 'Miller' signature.
>
> Compound this with the 2.4 million Big Books distributed since
>
> April 1939, her early efforts gave AA its best start to our growth
>
> of geometric proportions!
>
> Rick, Illinois
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

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++++Message 5347. . . . . . . . . . . . External threats to AA: McCarthyism
in the 1940s and 50s?
From: Andyrawks . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/10/2008 3:52:00 AM

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I'm involved in a Big Book/AA History Study.
Last week we were looking at some of the
external historical issues that have affected
our fellowship (and its survival of them) --
wars, complications by association with the
Oxford Groups, Katrina/New Orleans, etc.

One newcomer in the Group was wondering whether
any known effects or difficulties were caused
to the fellowship during the McCarthy investi-
gations of the 1950s?

- - - -

From the moderator:

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism

"McCarthyism is a term describing the intense
anti-communist suspicion in the United States
in a period that lasted roughly from the late
1940s to the late 1950s .... Originally coined
to criticize the actions of U.S. Senator Joseph
McCarthy, 'McCarthyism' later took on a more
general meaning, not necessarily referring to
the conduct of Joseph McCarthy alone."

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++++Message 5348. . . . . . . . . . . . You Have Been Warned
From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/10/2008 7:16:00 AM

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Long Beach man sentenced for killing his AA sponsor

By Tracy Manzer, Staff Writer

11/06/2008

LONG BEACH - A 29-year-old Long Beach man was
sentenced to more than 50 years to life in
prison Thursday for the 2006 shooting death
of his Alcoholics Anonymous sponsor.

Scott Gordon Reynolds said nothing as the
sentence was handed down and did not look back
at his family or the two dozen family and
friends of his victim, 33-year-old Uriel
Noriega, who packed one side of a Long Beach
Superior Courtroom.

"He was always interested in helping people
from day one," Ulysses Noriega told the court
in an emotional victim impact statement.

"He found his calling (with AA), he felt
fulfilled," the brother said.

Reynolds claimed he planned to kill himself
Sept. 2, 2006, in view of his fellow AA members
in front of St. Luke's Episcopal Church, 525
Seventh St.

Instead, he turned the gun on his sponsor once
he saw Noriega's face, emptying the weapon and
shooting the victim repeatedly.

"People refer to this as a murder, but in my
opinion it was an assassination," said Eddie
Milton, the victim's uncle.

Reynolds told the jury that he snapped after
the victim told other members in AA the
defendant was gay, a secret he claimed he
had told only to his mother and to Noriega.

"None of that was substantiated in court,"
Deputy District Attorney Patrick O'Crowley
said Thursday.

O'Crowley said the victim's sponsor testified
that Noriega had come to him for help in
dealing with Reynolds, but that the information
never went any further than the two men.

Under the rules of the program, information
shared between a sponsor and their sponsee is
confidential. New sponsors, such as Noriega,
who are in training can also go to their
sponsors for help if needed, O'Crowley said.

The defense also claimed Reynolds was mentally
ill, saying he was diagnosed with bipolar
disorder just prior to the slaying.

Neither defense argument worked and Reynolds
was convicted on all counts, including first-
degree murder and the personal use of a
firearm, resulting in a 50 years to life
sentence.

A charge of criminal threats added 8 months to
his sentence, which his attorney - Natasha
Khamashta - asked be served concurrently.

Long Beach Superior Court Judge Jesse Rodriguez
denied the request, tacking the extra time onto
the life sentence to be served consecutively.

He told the defendant that he had destroyed
the lives of two families, that of the
victim's and his own, and that he had
sympathy for both families, but primarily
for the victim's family.

"You will always have Mr. Reynolds to talk to,
to look at, to help him as much as you can,"
the judge said to Reynold's family.

"Mr. Noriega's family, you have a void that
you will never be able to fill... The most
empty feeling is the loss of a child."

Rodriguez did grant the defense's request to
strike one point from the record made by a
probation officer in a report filed at the
time of Reynold's arrest.

In the report, the officer stated that the
slaying was a crime of extreme violence, that
the defendant used a gun in the killing and
that he took advantage of a position of trust
with the victim in order to commit the murder.

Khamashta argued the information should be
removed from the record so that it would not
be there in 50 years when her client becomes
eligible for parole.

"Everything (the probation officer) wrote in
here is true. This was a crime of great
violence, he shot him ... I lost count of how
many times," the judge responded.

But Rodriguez agreed to remove just one point,
that the murderer used a position of trust to
carry out the crime, then ordered the defendant
to pay close to $4,000 in restitution for the
cost of the victim's funeral.

The judge's decision came after the victim's
brother delivered an extremely emotional
victim impact statement to the court.

Speaking on behalf of his family, Ulysses
Noriega lashed out at Reynolds and his
attorney, saying their accusations that his
brother was a gossip were untrue and ran
counter to the life that the victim had led.

Noriega worked as a lifeguard until a back
injury ended his career, an injury that
required two surgeries and permanently reduced
Noriega's mobility, Ulysses Noriega told the
court.

But his desire to help people was just as
strong and his role in AA helped him to
further his dreams of working with people
in need, the brother said.

"He helped hundreds of people through (their)
darkest moments," Ulysses Noriega said.

Ulysses Noriega also begged Reynolds and his
family to accept the sentence and to stop
their costly court battles and cease with
the claims that the victim was somehow
responsible for his death and that Reynolds
was mentally ill and therefore should not be
held responsible.

"He's a murderer who belongs in prison with
other murderers," the brother said, stopping
occasionally as his emotions swelled.

"Please do not try to appeal this. Have some
respect and let us live in peace."

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++++Message 5349. . . . . . . . . . . . Reproduction circus jacket covers
From: victoria callaway . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/10/2008 12:14:00 PM

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Don't know if this is appropriate or not but
I was wondering if anyone knows how to get
a hold of copies of the "circus jacket" cover
of our BB -- I have purchased them a long time
ago (made by? I don't know) and gave them away
to a lot of friends -- now I have been out for
a long time and would like to purchase some
more if anyone knows how.

Thanks so much -- and I learn so much from this
site and share it with others -- our history
is very important to me.

Have a great day sober,
vicki--the real alkie

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++++Message 5350. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: from Works Publishing Co.
From: rick tompkins . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/9/2008 6:04:00 PM

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Glad you responded, John, but more questions
come to my mind along with one unproven
assumption.

The accurate Alcoholic Foundation/Works
Publishing Co. office move dates are not at
my fingertips, but I am confident that a Post
Office Box was first established for the
expected massive inquiries for 1939 book
sales. Then again, the Liberty article came
in September 1939, and still there was no
large spike in BB requests. Of course,
history tells us that a sales rush didn't
happen until the watershed of the March 1941
Post article. Then, the Post article included
an office address while the 1939 Liberty article
did not.

Even Bill and Lois were living almost hand-
to-mouth with other AA friends/patrons in the
spring and summer of 1939, or were awaiting
foreclosure on Lois' family home in Brooklyn.

Was the Church Street Annex near Vesey Street
where the 24th Street Clubhouse took form?
a simple US Post Office branch (just like a
Box 459, Grand Central Station)?

Was it the Riverside (Rockefeller) Church's
or Calvary Church Mission's original Annex
address?

Near a subway stop on the way to Newark and
close to Wall Street?

Perhaps Dr. Kurtz or someone from Manhattan
knows these answers.

As far as my guarded assumption: wouldn't
'Church Street Annex, P.O. NYC' have a more
cosmopolitan and "national-type" feel than
an address of 17 Williams Street, Newark,
New Jersey?

I could be mistaken. On a side note, pity poor
Hank and the timing of his meltdowns; perhaps
he couldn't handle unrequited, unreturned love
from Ruth while he was respectably married at
the time.

Still, in my view Hank remains one of our
pivotal AA Pioneers despite his personal
conduct (not judgin' here too much, just
seein'). AA seems to have had a few Pioneer
scoundrels.

Not a saint either,

Rick, Illinois

- - - -

Message 5346 from John B.
<jax760@yahoo.com> (jax760 at yahoo.com)
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/5346

This answers a lot of questions:

AACOA has the post office box moving in 1940.
But according to this letter it moved in 1939.
This explains Hank's meltdown in June of 39
and his subsequent relapse in September of 39.

Is the date in Pass it On for the office move
still correct as 3/16/1940? How was this
established?

Best Regards

John B

- - - -

"rick tompkins" <ricktompkins@...> wrote:
WORKS PUBLISHING CO.
Church Street Annex, Post Office Box 657
New York City
May 4, 1939

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++++Message 5351. . . . . . . . . . . . Walt Whitman''s novel about
alcoholism
From: Dirk Dierking . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/10/2008 7:59:00 PM

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Does anyone have any information about Walt
Whitman's novel on the alcoholic? Unfortun-
ately, I cannot remember the name, (I think
it was called the Inebriate) but I know he
wrote one; it was not very popular, but I am
wondering if it is worth looking for.

Thanks and love,

--Dirk

- - - -

From the moderator:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walt_Whitman

"Early in his career, [Walt Whitman] also
produced a temperance novel, Franklin Evans
(1842)."

This novel was reprinted a little over a
year ago:

http://www.popmatters.com/pm/review/franklin-evans-or-the-inebriate-by-walt-
whit\

man-ed-christopher-castiglia-an [29]

Franklin Evans, or the Inebriate: A Tale of
the Times by Walt Whitman [ed. Christopher
Castiglia and Glenn Hendler] Duke University
Press, July 2007, 232 pages

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++++Message 5352. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: from Works Publishing Co.
From: schaberg43 . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/12/2008 3:43:00 PM

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Regarding the dates for the start of the post
office box numbers, the documents in the GSO
Archive provide the following information:

The ad for the Big Book that was run in the
New York Times on April 11, 1939 is the first
instance of the 657 post office box number
being used:

Have you an
ALCOHOLIC PROBLEM?
ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS – the story of precisely
how more than 100 men have recovered from alcoholism.
For information write
WORKS PUBLISHING COMPANY
Church Street Annex P. O. Box 657, New York, N.Y.

[Archive 1939-192, Box 59, Folder C(1)]

Presumably, this post office box was contracted
for on April 7, 1939 – the same day that the
post office box for the Alcoholic Foundation
was contracted for. In a letter of that date
to board member, Frank Amos, Hank Parkhurst
wrote:

We paid $4.00 which is the first quarter rent
on post box #658, Church Street Annex, Post
Office, New York City, in the name of the
Alcoholic Foundation. Will you please issue
a check covering this $4.00.

[Archive 1939-179, Box 59, Folder D.1]

Best,

Old Bill

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++++Message 5353. . . . . . . . . . . . Re:Walt Whitman''s novel about
alcoholism
From: Mike Barns . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/12/2008 1:57:00 PM

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Amazon.com lists both the reprint ($14.95)
and a couple of originals ($75-$130):

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-key
word\

s=Walt+Whitman+-+%22Inebriate%22&x=11&y=16 [30]

Mike Barns

- - - -

Also from: charles Knapp <cdknapp@pacbell.net>
(cdknapp at pacbell.net)

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++++Message 5354. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: External threats to AA:
McCarthyism in the 1940s and 50s?
From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/10/2008 7:02:00 PM

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Joe McCarthy (a Senator) often gets erroneously
associated with the House (of Representatives)
Un-American Activities Committee (HUAC).

HUAC was the entity that led to the Hollywood
black-listing and people being jailed for
contempt of Congress. In one form or another,
it ran from the mid-1930s to mid-1970s before
being abolished.

McCarthy later adopted the methods used by
HUAC in his Senate committee hearings during
the early to mid-1950s. After the infamous
Army-McCarthy Hearings of the mid-1950s, he
was ultimately discredited and censured by the
Senate. He was very likely an alcoholic and
likely died from it in the late 1950s at a
relatively young age.

Cheers
Arthur

P.S. I certainly could be wrong, but as a
postscript to this message, I believe the
largest external threat to AA is alcohol.

According to the World Health Organization
and NCADD, alcohol is the third leading cause
of preventable deaths world-wide.

- - - -

-----Original Message-----

I'm involved in a Big Book/AA History Study.
Last week we were looking at some of the
external historical issues that have affected
our fellowship (and its survival of them) --
wars, complications by association with the
Oxford Groups, Katrina/New Orleans, etc.

One newcomer in the Group was wondering whether
any known effects or difficulties were caused
to the fellowship during the McCarthy investi-
gations of the 1950s?

- - - -

From the moderator:

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism

"McCarthyism is a term describing the intense
anti-communist suspicion in the United States
in a period that lasted roughly from the late
1940s to the late 1950s .... Originally coined
to criticize the actions of U.S. Senator Joseph
McCarthy, 'McCarthyism' later took on a more
general meaning, not necessarily referring to
the conduct of Joseph McCarthy alone."

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++++Message 5355. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Walt Whitman''s novel about
alcoholism
From: chris fuccione . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/12/2008 3:12:00 PM

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Whitman and the Washingtonians

<<Whitman was a vocal proponent of temperance
and rarely drank alcohol. He once claimed he
did not taste "strong liquor" until he was
thirty and occasionally argued for prohibition.
One of his earliest long fiction works, the
novel Franklin Evans; or, The Inebriate, first
published November 23, 1842, is a temperance
novel. Whitman wrote the novel at the height of
popularity of the Washingtonian movement though
the movement itself was plagued with contra-
dictions, as was Franklin Evans. Years later
Whitman claimed he was embarrassed by the book
and called it a "damned rot". He dismissed it
by saying he wrote the novel in three days
solely for money while he was under the
influence of alcohol himself. Even so, he
wrote other pieces recommending temperance,
including The Madman and a short story
"Reuben's Last Wish".>>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walt_Whitman

- - - -

Also from <John.Quinn@SBCGlobal.net>

(John.Quinn at SBCGlobal.net)

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++++Message 5356. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Reproduction circus jacket
covers
From: S Sommers . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/10/2008 6:44:00 PM

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From: S Sommers <scmws@yahoo.com>
(scmws at yahoo.com)

History or not, you can find reproductions of
dust covers from the company in this link:

http://dustjackets.org/

Thanks for everything.

Sam Sommers
Elkhart Indiana

<bigbookken@yahoo.com>
(bigbookken at yahoo.com)
also refers us to this site: "Great
quality reproduction dust jackets."

<chicouple7560@sbcglobal.net>
(chicouple7560 at sbcglobal.net)
also suggest this site.

- - - -

From: Jocelyn <prpllady51@yahoo.com>
(prpllady51 at yahoo.com)

You can purchase them here:

http://anonpress.org/store/

Jocelyn

The anonpress site is also sent in by
David Jones <jonesd926@aol.com>
(jonesd926 at aol.com)

and james ryan <elephant_7@yahoo.com>
(elephant_7 at yahoo.com)

- - - -

From: Shakey1aa@aol.com
(Shakey1aa at aol.com)

Dust jackets for all editions are available
through this web site:

http://abookman.com/aacatalog.htm

Their email address is <abookman@mchsi.com>
(abookman at mchsi.com)

You will have to look through this site to
find the section that deals with Big Book
dust jackets.

YIS,
Shakey Mike Gwirtz

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++++Message 5358. . . . . . . . . . . . FRANKLIN EVANS, or THE INEBRIATE
From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/12/2008 5:59:00 PM

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Whitman's novel has just recently (2007) been
brought back into print, with an introduction,
and a couple of shorter Whitman pieces (plus
Abe Lincoln's 1842 Springfield Washingtonian
address). My recollection is that the book
was never really finished off, and in any case
the whole production is brief. As to whether
it's worth reading, that depends on your taste
in temperance literature, but it's scarcely a
long read, and there's some good journalism in
it, and it's written at a critical point in
American temperance literature, besides being
by a major author (if in a very minor key),
so I'd say yes, but that's just my opinion.

-- Jared Lobdell

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++++Message 5359. . . . . . . . . . . . The date of the Akron Manual
From: luckett.richard . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/14/2008 10:22:00 AM

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Can anyone date the Akron Manual?

The various web sites are not in agreement as
to exactly when it was written, and it would
be helpful to know.

Thanks,

Richard

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++++Message 5360. . . . . . . . . . . . Photos of the motorcycle Bill and
Lois drove
From: CloydG . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/16/2008 3:26:00 PM

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Does anyone have any links to AA sites that
have a picture of the Harley Davidson which
Bill and Lois Wilson used while they toured
the country?

I'm particularly interested in finding a
picture of the two of them, where Lois is
driving and Bill is in the side car. Any help
would be greatly appreciated!

In love and sevice, Clyde G.

<cloydg449@sbcglobal.net>
(cloydg449 at sbcglobal.net)

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++++Message 5361. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr. Tom, "my old time friend in AA"
??
From: diazeztone . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/10/2008 9:57:00 PM

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Can anyone identify the Dr Tom mentioned in
the sale of this book?

http://www.baumanrarebooks.com/rare-books/alcoholics-anonymous/twelve-steps-
and-\

twelve-traditions/70545.aspx [31]

ld pierce
aabibliography.com

- - - -

The inscription by Bill W. reads ""Dr. Tom
-- my old time friend in AA"

Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions
Cost: $10,000.00

"TO DR. TOM -- MY OLD TIME FRIEND IN AA": FIRST
EDITION OF TWELVE STEPS AND TWELVE TRADITIONS,
PRESENTATION COPY INSCRIBED BY AA FOUNDER
BILL WILSON

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++++Message 5362. . . . . . . . . . . . Bob P. and High Watch Farm?
From: garylock7008 . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/12/2008 8:23:00 AM

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In the Big Book story "A.A. TAUGHT HIM TO
HANDLE SOBRIETY" Bob Pearson said [page 558
in the 4th edition] that "Within a few days
I found myself drying out on a drunk farm."

Given that it was Dr. Tiebout who persuaded
him to seek help - is it possible that the
help came from High Watch Farm?

We were reading this story in our meeting
here in Welland, Ontario, Canada and I found
that not one person in the meeting had ever
heard of this place. Over the next week or
so, I could not find one person in our local
area who knew about it.

AH! we have so much history to pass on. A
check on the High Watch Farm web-site shows
that it is still carrying the AA message
very well.Do any of the group members have
additional information on this? Gary

- - - -

From the moderator:

If you go to our Message Board and search for
"High Watch" in quotation marks, you will
discover that we already have a little bit
posted about the place.

Also see:

http://www.highwatchfarm.com/index.php?pageid=9

"It all began in 1939 when Etheldred Folsom,
better known to her friends as Sister Francis,
invited a group of recovering alcoholics to
her 200 acre farm in Kent, Connecticut. She
wanted to learn more about a new movement
she had heard about which had began in 1935
called Alcoholic Anonymous (AA). Among the
visitors were Bill Wilson, the founding member
of AA and Marty Mann the first woman to
maintain continuous sobriety in AA."

"Ms. Folsom was so impressed with her guests
and this movement that she offered to gift her
Farm to the cause. Bill, knowing AA could not
own property formed a Not-for Profit 501(c)(3)
Organization and appointed a Board of Directors
as its Governing Body. His vision was for the
Farm to become a retreat, based on the 12-step
principles of AA where alcoholics could come
to seek recovery from their active addiction."

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana, US)

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++++Message 5363. . . . . . . . . . . . JOE McCARTHY
From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/13/2008 8:28:00 PM

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Probably the only connection between AA and
the activities of HUAC (I know of none with
Joe McCarthy, except that he could have used
AA) would be that a number of those black-
listed in the entertainment industry died
alcoholic deaths -- but whether they came to
AA is doubtful.

As far as guilt by association with the Left,
Bill Wilson was scarcely anywhere left of
political center, the Oxford Group was
pro-Capitalist and even in some minds Right-
wing, and the only Left-winger I know of
involved with AA in the early days (and she
mostly with Al-Anon) was Dr. Ruth Fox, a
non-Communist Socialist like her husband,
Mac Coleman, who died in 1950. Of the
messengers to Ebby, for example, Rowland H.
was a Republican State Senator in Rhode
Island during WW1, Cebra G. a Republican
State Senator in Vermont in the 1930s, and
Shep C. ran for Congress as a Republican in
1940.

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++++Message 5364. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: from Works Publishing Co.
From: rick tompkins . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/13/2008 10:28:00 PM

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And, researching to find Church Street, it's
in lower Manhattan's financial district, a
few blocks from Wall Street.

Rick, Illinois

- - - -

From: schaberg43

Regarding the dates for the start of the post
office box numbers, the documents in the GSO
Archive provide the following information:
The ad for the Big Book that was run in the
New York Times on April 11, 1939 is the first
instance of the 657 post office box number
being used:
Have you an
ALCOHOLIC PROBLEM?
ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS - the story of precisely
how more than 100 men have recovered from alcoholism.
For information write
WORKS PUBLISHING COMPANY
Church Street Annex P. O. Box 657, New York, N.Y.
[Archive 1939-192, Box 59, Folder C(1)]
Presumably, this post office box was contracted
for on April 7, 1939 - the same day that the
post office box for the Alcoholic Foundation
was contracted for. In a letter of that date
to board member, Frank Amos, Hank Parkhurst
wrote:
We paid $4.00 which is the first quarter rent
on post box #658, Church Street Annex, Post
Office, New York City, in the name of the
Alcoholic Foundation. Will you please issue
a check covering this $4.00.
[Archive 1939-179, Box 59, Folder D.1]
Best,
Old Bill

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++++Message 5365. . . . . . . . . . . . Fifty AA members from show business,
etc.
From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/17/2008 11:49:00 AM

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Can anyone shed any light on this? Someone sent
me this email:

Have you ever heard of The Fifty? It's a name
for fifty AA'ers who held a press luncheon in,
I believe, New York City.

Dick Van Dyke and Sid Caesar (very popular
American comedians), a Senator, lawyers and
doctors all blew their anonymity as a way of
broadening the reach of AA.

I was told by one the participants that, while
not sponsored by AA, it was organized with
AA's knowledge. I believe he said an AA trustee
resigned and organized it.

Ring any bells?

- - - -

From the moderator: let's be careful here.
It is perfectly all right for an AA member
to state in the media that he or she is a
recovering alcoholic. This was established
back in the time of Marty Mann.

Senator Harold Hughes regularly announced
in public that he was a recovered alcoholic
( http://hindsfoot.org/kNO1.html ).

Simply stating in the public media that you
are an alcoholic is not "blowing your
anonymity."

Because Hughes never stated in the public media
back then that he was an AA member. That
is what the traditons forbid.

As long as you leave all mention of your
AA membership out of it, you are not "blowing
your anonymity."

Glenn C.

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++++Message 5366. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Photos of the motorcycle Bill
and Lois drove
From: momaria33772 . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/17/2008 5:50:00 PM

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This, and MANY other great historical pictures
are available on:

http://www.mensworkshop.org/AA_Gallery/index.htm

This is a super resource for any History Lover.

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++++Message 5367. . . . . . . . . . . . An interesting typo on Dr. Bob''s
death
From: handlebarick . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/17/2008 4:34:00 PM

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The January 1951 issue of the Grapevine, when
it marks the anniversary of Dr. Bob's passing,
lists November nineteenth at noonday.

This is presumably an error, because all the
other sources of information that I know give
November sixteenth as Dr. Bob's date-of-death.

Handlebar Rick, Wapakoneta, Ohio

- - - -

From the moderator: we are two days past the
anniversary of his death now (this is November
18), and probably should have posted something
to commemorate it, but at any rate, the correct
date is indeed November 16:

Dr. Bob = Robert Holbrook Smith
born 8 August 1879; died 16 November 1950

See for example:

Mitchell K. in
http://alcoholism.about.com/library/blmitch5.htm
"Dr. Bob never drank again until his death,
November 16, 1950."

http://silkworth.net/aabiography/roberthsmith.html
Dr. Bob died on November 16, 1950.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Smith_(doctor)
"Robert Holbrook Smith (August 8, 1879
- November 16, 1950) was an American physician
and surgeon who co-founded Alcoholics Anonymous.
He was also known as Dr. Bob."

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++++Message 5368. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Fifty AA members from show
business, etc.
From: aalogsdon@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/18/2008 6:38:00 AM

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The NCA Bulletin published by The National
Council on Alcoholism Vol 2 No 1 dated July
1976 carries the Headline CELEBRITIES IDENTIFY
SELVES AS RECOVERED ALCOHOLICS.

Shown on front page is a photograph of Wilbur
D. Mills, Garry Moore, Dick Van Dyke and Edwin
E. "Buzz" Aldrin Jr. Inside is a list of the
persons who identified themselves as recovered
alcoholics along with many photographs
including a group of over fifty persons.
This copy of the bulletin was donated to my
archive collection by Don Bennitt of Frankfort,
Illinois.

I have also a framed photograph with identifi-
cation of the group 16 x 19 and also a
12 x 15 wooden and metal plaque describing
the occasion with all names and description of
the occasion, which was presented to one of
the people identified. These two items came
from The National Council on Alcoholism.

- - - -

From the moderator:

The celebrities who made up this group of
fifty or so never mentioned their AA membership
in public. They stated only that they were
recovered alcoholics, and that they were making
this public statement to make clear to the
public that alcoholism was treatable, and
that alcoholics could be restored to fully
functioning and productive members of society.
This was the principal message of Marty Mann's
National Council on Alcoholism: that instead
of the old punitive approach of automatically
firing alcoholics from their jobs or throwing
them in jail, they should be provided with the
kind of treatment that would enable them to
recover their place in the world.

See Sally and David R. Brown, A Biography
of Mrs. Marty Mann: The First Lady of
Alcoholics Anonymous
http://www.sallyanddavidbrown.com

Sgt. Bill Swegen, On the Military Firing
Line, on the punitive American attitude
toward alcoholism in the 1940's and 50's
http://hindsfoot.org/kBS1.html

This group of fifty celebrities is the
one referred to by Nancy Olson (the
founder of the AAHistoryLovers) in her book
"With a Lot of Help from Our Friends," see
http://hindsfoot.org/kNO1.html

Nancy asked some of the members of this group
of fifty to appear before a U.S. Senate
committee on alcoholism, along with other
important figures in the field of alcoholism
treatment and recovery, including Bill W.
himself.

The traditional AA policy was followed at all
times. People who said publicly that they were
recovered alcoholics could give their full
names (and the TV and newspaper cameras were
allowed to photograph them full face) AS LONG
AS THEY NEVER MENTIONED THEIR A.A. MEMBERSHIP.

Those who talked to the Senate committee about
their A.A. membership (including Bill W. and
one or two U.S. Navy officers, among others)
gave only their first names, and were seated
with their backs to the cameras, so that only
the backs of their heads were shown.

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++++Message 5369. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Photos of the motorcycle Bill
and Lois drove
From: Cindy Miller . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/17/2008 6:17:00 PM

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There is a full-page picture in "Pass It On"
of Bill driving and Lois in the sidecar. P. 71.

For those who are interested in pictures,
Lois's memoirs "Lois Remembers" has a lot
of great pictures from -- and a day-by-day
(almost) account of -- their "industrial
investigation" journey, April, 1925.

-cm
`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>

___________________________

From: "David LeBlanc" <Inkman3@webtv.net>
(Inkman3 at webtv.net)

Look at the photo section in the web site
set up by District Five in Central Texas:

http://www.texasdistrict5.com/history-in-photos.htm

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++++Message 5370. . . . . . . . . . . . AA Recovery Outcome Rates: updated
version
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/22/2008 6:56:00 PM

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An October 11, 2008 update of the original
article -- with the addition of the recently
released 2007 Survey Results -- has just been
posted on the internet:

"Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) Recovery Outcome
Rates: Contemporary Myth and Misinterpretation."

By Arthur S. (Arlington, Texas), Tom E.
(Wappingers Falls, New York), and Glenn C.
(South Bend, Indiana).

Originally published January 1, 2008

Adobe PDF file at http://hindsfoot.org/recout01.pdf

MS Word DOC file at http://hindsfoot.org/recout01.doc

- - - -

Summary of the data:

The A.A. Triennial Membership Surveys for 1977
through 1989 show that, of those people who are
in their first month of attending A.A. meetings,
26% will still be attending A.A. meetings at
the end of that year.

Of those who are in their fourth month of
attending A.A. meetings (i.e., those who have
completed their initial ninety days, and have
thereby demonstrated a certain willingness to
really try the program), 56% will still be
attending A.A. meetings at the end of that
year.

For growth of AA sobriety ranges, the 1983
Survey showed 25% of AA members sober over
5 years and the 2004 Survey showed 50% of AA
members sober over 5 years.

For growth of AA sobriety averages, the 1983
Survey found the average AA member sober for
4 years and the 2004 Survey found the average
AA member sober for more than 8 years.

In 2002, global AA membership was around 2.1
million (1.2 million of that in the US). These
membership numbers are likely understated;
even so, it is a substantial quantitative
indicator of AA success:

AA was helping 1 alcoholic for every 7
active alcohol dependent adults. If we
consider alcohol abusers to be potential
members then it is 1 AA member for
every 15 problem drinkers.

Corresponding research in the 1991-1992
NIAAA "National Longitudinal Alcohol
Epidemiologic Survey” (NLAES) showed
similar numbers. There was 1 AA member
for every 7 alcohol dependent people and
1 for every 12 either alcohol dependent
or alcohol abusers.

The authors state in conclusion: "The above
are not measurements of failure."

- - - -

FROM THE INTRODUCTION:

This paper addresses an erroneous myth that
AA is experiencing a 5% (or less) “success
rate” today as opposed to either a 50%, 70%,
75%, 80% or 93% (take your pick) “success
rate” it once reputedly enjoyed in the 1940s
and 1950s. The term “myth” is used to emphasize
that the low “success rates” promulgated are
a product of imagination, invention and
inattention to detail rather than fact-based
research.

Also noteworthy in the derivation of the
mythical percentages, is the absence of
fundamental academic disciplines of methodical
research, corroborating verification and
factual citation of sources. Regrettably, some
of the advocates who are propagating the myth
are AA members who purport to be “AA Historians”
and appear to be advocating agendas that portray
fiction as fact and hearsay as history ....

Claims of a 10%, 5% or less success rate for
contemporary AA are erroneous and rest largely
and misguidedly on the misinterpretation of
data in a 1989-1990 internal AA General Service
Office report on “AA Triennial Membership
Surveys.”

The assertion of a 50-75% success rate in AA
is derived from various AA literature sources
and other written sources, but is not explicitly
demonstrated except in one instance. That
instance pertains to the AA members who had
their personal stories printed in the first
edition “Big Book” ....

Over the years, the internet has provided an
international forum for anyone who can access
it. A number of so-called “recovery” or “AA
history” or “AA archives” web sites have pro-
liferated. Many teem with personal grievances,
screeds, and widely varying (and revisionist)
interpretations of AA history and the AA
program of recovery. An abundance of academic
and medical special interest web sites have
materialized as well.

The erroneous 10%, 5% or less success rate
myth for contemporary AA has proliferated
without as much as a token challenge to its
veracity or investigation of its origin. The
topic of AA success or failure outcomes
suffers from a great deal of anecdotal
misinformation, misinterpretation and
editorializing ....

Based on research discoveries to date, it is
believed that the 50% + 25% success rate is
in all probability a very reasonable “best
estimate” of AA’s success (both early and
contemporary).

The sole qualification (it is vitally important
and often disregarded) is that the 50% + 25%
success outcome rates apply only to those
prospects who attempt to give AA a serious try
(i.e. you get out of AA what you put into it).
This rests on the simple, obvious, premise that
a remedy cannot be construed as either a
“success” or “failure” until it is at least
tried and tested.

Also of contextual importance, is that the
subset of the past and present prospect popu-
lation falling into this category is estimated
to be 20% to 40% (1 or 2 out of 5) of the
total prospect population.

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++++Message 5371. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr. Tom, "my old time friend in
AA" ??
From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/17/2008 6:35:00 PM

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A couple of years ago eBay had one of the
first five 12x12s to come off the press
inscribed by Bill to Tom Powers for sale.
He was instrumental in getting the book put
together.

This is not the same book as the inscription
is different and the earlier book was not
offered with a dust jacket.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

- - - -

At 20:57 11/10/2008, diazeztone wrote:

>Can anyone identify the Dr Tom mentioned in
>the sale of this book?
>
>http://www.baumanrarebooks.com/rare-books/alcoholics-anonymous/twelve-steps
-and\

-twelve-traditions/70545.aspx [31]
>
>ld pierce
>aabibliography.com
>
>- - - -
>
>The inscription by Bill W. reads ""Dr. Tom
>-- my old time friend in AA"
>
>Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions
>Cost: $10,000.00
>
>"TO DR. TOM -- MY OLD TIME FRIEND IN AA": FIRST
>EDITION OF TWELVE STEPS AND TWELVE TRADITIONS,
>PRESENTATION COPY INSCRIBED BY AA FOUNDER
>BILL WILSON
>
>
>

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++++Message 5372. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr. Tom, "my old time friend in
AA" ??
From: mrpetesplace . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/18/2008 5:55:00 PM

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There is a Dr. Tom M. who started the first
group in North Carolina.

See Messages 5087 and 5138
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/5087
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/5138

Does it give a full name (or last initial)
for the Dr. Tom to whom this book is inscribed?

Or are there other reasons for believing that
this book has to have been inscribed to Tom
Powers instead of perhaps Tom M.?

- - - -

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,
"diazeztone" <eztone@...> wrote:
>
> Can anyone identify the Dr Tom mentioned in
> the sale of this book?
>
http://www.baumanrarebooks.com/rare-books/alcoholics-anonymous/twelve-steps-
and-\

twelve-traditions/70545.aspx [31]
>
> ld pierce
> aabibliography.com
>
> - - - -
>
> The inscription by Bill W. reads ""Dr. Tom
> -- my old time friend in AA"
>
> Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions
> Cost: $10,000.00
>
> "TO DR. TOM -- MY OLD TIME FRIEND IN AA": FIRST
> EDITION OF TWELVE STEPS AND TWELVE TRADITIONS,
> PRESENTATION COPY INSCRIBED BY AA FOUNDER
> BILL WILSON
>

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++++Message 5373. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bob P. and High Watch Farm?
From: Kevin Short . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/17/2008 6:12:00 PM

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The history page on their web site states that
High Watch Farm is the oldest substance abuse
treatment facility in the world based on 12
step principles. My wife and I were in Kent,
Connecticut, a couple of years back and had
a wonderful evening when we attended their
8:00PM Saturday open speaker meeting.

Mel B. might have a it more to say. In his
book about Ebby, Mel tells of Ebby's visits
to Joy Farm (the original name), then operated
by Sister Francis.

Bill L.'s web site also has an excerpt from
the April 1986 Reader's Digest, that goes
into more detail about Bob P. and High Watch
Farm.

Kevin S. (Windham, New Hampshire, US)

- - - -

See "The Unforgettable Bill W." by Bob P.,
Reader's Digest, April 1986, at
http://www.barefootsworld.net/aabillwreadersdigest.html

- - - -

From: jenny andrews <jennylaurie1@hotmail.com>
(jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com)

See also "Mrs Marty Mann: the first lady of
Alcoholics Anonymous" (Sally and David Brown;
Hazelden; 2001): "The Wilsons, Marty, and two
additional AA couples wasted no time driving
to spend a weekend at High Watch Farm ... a
rustic retreat owned and managed by a saintly
old woman who had chosen the name Sister
Francis in honor of her favorite saint ...
from then on High Watch was essentially an
AA retreat and detox center ... High Watch
Farm is still (2001) a functioning retreat
primarily for AAs and an important part of
AA history." (pp124 ff).

- - - -

Original message: garylock7008 wrote
>
> In the Big Book story "A.A. TAUGHT HIM TO
> HANDLE SOBRIETY" Bob Pearson said [page 558
> in the 4th edition] that "Within a few days
> I found myself drying out on a drunk farm."
>
> Given that it was Dr. Tiebout who persuaded
> him to seek help - is it possible that the
> help came from High Watch Farm?
>
> We were reading this story in our meeting
> here in Welland, Ontario, Canada and I found
> that not one person in the meeting had ever
> heard of this place. Over the next week or
> so, I could not find one person in our local
> area who knew about it.
>
> AH! we have so much history to pass on. A
> check on the High Watch Farm web-site shows
> that it is still carrying the AA message
> very well.Do any of the group members have
> additional information on this? Gary
>
> - - - -
>
> >From the moderator:
>
> If you go to our Message Board and search for
> "High Watch" in quotation marks, you will
> discover that we already have a little bit
> posted about the place.
>
> Also see:
>
> http://www.highwatchfarm.com/index.php?pageid=9
>
> "It all began in 1939 when Etheldred Folsom,
> better known to her friends as Sister Francis,
> invited a group of recovering alcoholics to
> her 200 acre farm in Kent, Connecticut. She
> wanted to learn more about a new movement
> she had heard about which had began in 1935
> called Alcoholic Anonymous (AA). Among the
> visitors were Bill Wilson, the founding member
> of AA and Marty Mann the first woman to
> maintain continuous sobriety in AA."
>
> "Ms. Folsom was so impressed with her guests
> and this movement that she offered to gift her
> Farm to the cause. Bill, knowing AA could not
> own property formed a Not-for Profit 501(c)(3)
> Organization and appointed a Board of Directors
> as its Governing Body. His vision was for the
> Farm to become a retreat, based on the 12-step
> principles of AA where alcoholics could come
> to seek recovery from their active addiction."
>
> Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana, US)

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++++Message 5374. . . . . . . . . . . . Group conscience
From: victoria callaway . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/1/2008 10:06:00 PM

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A younger member wanted to know if I could
find anything out about where the idea of a
group conscience grew from, and how it became
a part of AA.

Thanks so much
vicki

- - - -

From the moderator:

The Oxford Group believed not only in
individual guidance, but also that a number
of members could meet and seek divine
guidance for the activities of their group
as a whole.

In fact, all important decisions in the
Oxford Group were supposed to be made as
the result of group guidance sessions of
this sort.

But I'm sure that some of our good AA
historians in the AAHL can give us much
more in the way of useful detail about
how this practice was altered and adapted
to AA usage.

Glenn C., South Bend, Indiana

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++++Message 5375. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Group conscience
From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/5/2008 8:24:00 AM

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In "AA Comes of Age" (pg 102) the earliest
personal experience that influenced the
Traditions, and AA's Legacy of Unity, occurred
when Bill W was two years sober. In December
1936, Charles B Towns offered Bill a lucrative
job at his hospital as a lay alcoholism
therapist. After years of a hand to mouth
existence Bill wanted the job very much.

The question was put to the NY group meeting
in Bill's home and they rejected it. Bill
complied and cooperated with their decision
and later wrote in "AA Comes of Age" (pgs
101-102):

"Three blows, well and truly struck, had
fallen on the anvil of experience. The common
welfare must come first. AA cannot have a
class of professional therapists, and God,
speaking in the group conscience, is to be
our final authority." Bill went on to write
"Clearly implied in these three embryo
principles of tradition was a fourth: Our
leaders are but trusted servants; they do not
govern."

Cheers
Arthur

-----Original Message-----

A younger member wanted to know if I could
find anything out about where the idea of a
group conscience grew from, and how it became
a part of AA.

Thanks so much
vicki

- - - -

From the moderator:

The Oxford Group believed not only in
individual guidance, but also that a number
of members could meet and seek divine
guidance for the activities of their group
as a whole.

In fact, all important decisions in the
Oxford Group were supposed to be made as
the result of group guidance sessions of
this sort.

But I'm sure that some of our good AA
historians in the AAHL can give us much
more in the way of useful detail about
how this practice was altered and adapted
to AA usage.

Glenn C., South Bend, Indiana

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++++Message 5376. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Group conscience
From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/5/2008 9:57:00 AM

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From the 2007 "A Narrative Timeline of AA
History" work by one of the members of this
forum.

Two early instances of the group conscience at
work. Bill W. often cited these as the earliest
examples fo our 2nd Tradition.

Dec, In December 1936, Charles B Towns offered
Bill a lucrative job at his hospital as a lay
alcoholism therapist. After years of a hand
to mouth existence Bill wanted the job very
much. The question was put to the NY group
meeting in Bill's home and they rejected it.
Bill complied with their decision. He later
wrote (in AACOA 102): "3 blows, well and truly
struck, had fallen on the anvil of experience …
The common welfare must come first … AA cannot
have a class of professional therapists … and
God, speaking in the group conscience, is to be
our final authority." Bill went on to write
"Clearly implied in these 3 embryo principles
of tradition was a fourth: Our leaders are but
trusted servants; they do not govern." (AACOA
100-102, LR 197, BW-RT 232-234, NG 63-64, PIO
175-177)

Oct, Bill W and Dr Bob met again in Akron, OH.
At the time there were 2 groups and about 40
sober members (over 20 of them sober for more
than a year). All had been considered hopeless
and beyond help. Bill had some grandiose ideas
for a chain of AA hospitals, paid missionaries
and a book of experience to carry the message
to distant places. Dr Bob liked the book idea
but not the hospitals and paid missionaries.
In a meeting at T. Henry Williams home, Bill's
ideas narrowly passed by a single vote among
18 Akron members. The NY group was more enthusi-
astic. This historic milestone marked the
decision to write the Big Book.(AACOA vii, 76-77,
144-146, BW-RT 239-243, DBGO 123-124, NG 56-57,
PIO 180, LOH 142)

Warm Regards

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,
"victoria callaway" <victoria006@...> wrote:
>
> A younger member wanted to know if I could
> find anything out about where the idea of a
> group conscience grew from, and how it became
> a part of AA.
>
> Thanks so much
> vicki

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++++Message 5377. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Group conscience
From: Ben Humphreys . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/5/2008 10:10:00 AM

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I have an old pamplet dated 1946 called The
Twelve Points to Ensure our Future (the
forerunner of the twelve traditions) which
includes group conscience, which was one of
the earliest mentions of the Group Conscience.

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++++Message 5378. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Group conscience
From: LES COLE . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/5/2008 10:13:00 AM

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Hello Vicki:

Although the Oxford Group was the first organ-
ized program/group dealing with moral/spiritual
guidance that Ebby and Bill attended prior to
the development of the AA program, we can
recall that Ebby, Bill, Dr. Bob (and other AA
pioneers) were products of the New England
culture. In many of the early Colonies
important decisions governing the group were
made in Town Meetings. Therein anyone and
everyone had a voice which was respected.
People interacted with ideas and viewpoints
which led to consensus. That approach to
problem solving was a natural and inherent
part of Bill's personal makeup and surely
(perhaps unconsciously) he invested that system
in the organization of AA and the Fellowship.

Likewise, Bill's wife Lois, was raised within
a family which believed in the Swedenborgian
religion having moral principles of charity,
respect for others, and divine guidance.
She had a large and continuing influence on
Bill as he came to rely on the group conscience
as he gradually moved away from self indulgence.
Similarly, Dr Bob had a long connection with
the Oxford Group gatherings as did Henrietta
Sieberling, prior to even meeting Bill.

When we think of all those very early influences
(prior to AA) it is a fair assumption that it
was the combination which was the base for
articulating the 12-Steps, 12-Traditions, and
Fellowship practices.

Les C

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++++Message 5379. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bob P. and High Watch Farm?
From: Sally Brown . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/5/2008 12:27:00 AM

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Dave and I are happy to announce that all our
research materials for the Marty Mann bio have
now been sent to the addiction archives at
Brown University, thanks to the good offices
of Dr. David Lewis. Included are extensive paper
files, tapes of interviewees and of Marty, and
pictures.

One of the items was shared with us by Lyn
Harbaugh (Vanderbilt University). It is a
transcript of the keynote talk by Marty at the
celebration of High Watch's 25th anniversary
of its being "handed over" to AA by Sister
Francis. Marty, who was there at the beginning
of that association, and became a long-time
Board member, recounts the history of High
Watch. I believe Lyn wrote her senior thesis
on High Watch Farm, so she could be a very
good resource in addition to whatever records
High Watch itself has.

Shalom everyone - Sally

Rev Sally Brown
Board Certified Chaplain
United Church of Christ

Coauthor with David R Brown:
A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann:
The First Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous
http://www.sallyanddavidbrown.com

1470 Sand Hill Rd, 309
Palo Alto, California 94304
Phone/Fax: 650-325-5258
Email: rev.sally@att.net
(rev.sally at att.net)

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++++Message 5380. . . . . . . . . . . . Who are you to say there is no God?
From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/4/2008 8:18:00 PM

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In the 1st edit. Big Book(all printings) on
page 69 in the chapter We Agnostics, the
phrase "Who are you to say there is no God?"
is bold,double sized and not italicized.

I realize that a change in the Big Book
requires a conference action. I looked in
Advisory Actions of the General Service
Conference of AA 1951-1982 under literature
and saw no action to change this.

In the 2nd Ed. Big Book, on page 58 it is
no longer bold, double sized. It is now
italicized. Why?

The man that said this was Fitz M,"Our Southern
Friend." His story was quite edited from the
original.

Are there other examples of the same sentence
being used in a personal story and also in the
chapters up to Dr. Bob's story?

YIS
Shakey Mike Gwirtz
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA

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++++Message 5381. . . . . . . . . . . . 21 Best Movie Alcoholics award list
From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/4/2008 8:22:00 PM

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The 21 Best Movie Alcoholics of All Time
award list on the filmcritic.com website:

http://www.filmcritic.com/misc/emporium.nsf/reviews/The-21-Best-Movie-Alcoho
lics\

-of-All-Time [32]

SELF EXPLANATORY

Shakey Mike Gwirtz
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA

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++++Message 5382. . . . . . . . . . . . Little Red Book p. 62 error in 1st
version of the 1949 edition
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/5/2008 6:49:00 PM

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Confirmation (by Jayson S.) that there were
two versions of the 1949 edition of The Little
Red Book, the first with a printing error at
the top of page 62.

The first printing of The Little Red Book
appeared in 1946, two separate printings were
done in 1947, there was another printing in
1948, and there were two versions of the 1949
printing. Ed Webster kept on making changes in
the book during that period, and in fact kept
on making changes in the book all the way to
the end of his life (he died on June 3, 1971).

Tommy H. (Baton Rouge, Louisiana) had made a
study of the two 1947 printings in Message
4017 in the AAHistoryLovers, see
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/4017

He established that the one with the distinct-
ively red cover has to be the earlier of the
two 1947 printings. It says that it came out
in January 1947. The other 1947 printing,
which has a dull maroon cover, must have
appeared later in that year. This later
printing embodies a number of textual changes
which were carried over to the fourth and fifth
printings.

I first learned about the two versions of the
1949 printing in a telephone conversation which
I had with Jack H. in Scottsdale, Arizona. Jack
told me that the only difference between the
two versions was that the first copies off
the press were found on careful inspection to
have a minor typesetting error (a segment of
text inserted upside down) on one page. Not
many copies of the faulty version actually got
out to the public, but a few did. The type was
corrected, and the majority of the surviving
copies of the 1949 printing were then run off,
assembled, and bound without that printer's
error.

JAYSON S. HAS NOW WRITTEN AND CONFIRMED THIS:

"I noticed on your site it mentions that
there might be a printing variation of the
1949 version of The Little Red Book with a
typesetting error. I can verify that this
is correct. I own a copy having the error.
On page 62 the top two lines ARE upside down
on my copy. Just thought you'd like confirma-
tion of this."

Many thanks to Jayson for this information.

Tommy H. in Baton Rouge says that the 1950
edition says that it was the sixth printing,
the 1951 edition says that it was the seventh
printing, and so on. So it seems clear that
Ed Webster did not regard the two versions
which came out in 1949 as separate "printings"
or "editions" in the full sense. Perhaps the
best way of putting this, therefore, would be
to list the editions as follows:
______________________________


1st edition August 1946

2nd edition January 1947 (distinctively red
cover)

3rd edition later in 1947 (dull maroon cover)

4th edition 1948

5th edition 1949 (extant in two versions,
with a typesetting error in the top two lines
on page 62 in the earlier version)

6th edition 1950

7th edition 1951 (and so on)
______________________________

Jack H. argued that the 1949 edition should be
taken as a kind of benchmark version for many
purposes, since this was the last edition where
Dr. Bob had had any input into the book.

This was the simple "blue collar" instruction
book (as Ernie Kurtz has put it) on how to
work the twelve steps, the one which Dr. Bob
had requested the Akron AA group and their
midwestern friends to put together.

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++++Message 5384. . . . . . . . . . . . Early A.A. in Muncie, Indiana and in
Delaware County, Indiana
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/7/2008 5:42:00 PM

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"A Brief History of A.A. in Delaware County in
Indiana" by Bruce C. (Muncie, Indiana). How
A.A. began in Muncie and the surrounding parts
of east central Indiana, including Union City,
Dunkirk, Hartford City, Winchester, New Castle,
Yorktown, Montpelier, Anderson, Marion, Richmond,
and Cambridge City. Assembled from the New York
AA Archives and the A.A. Grapevine, together
with Indiana newspaper archives and the Ball
State University archives and special collec-
tions. New revised version, March 27, 2008.

http://hindsfoot.org/nmuncie1.pdf
______________________________

The A.A. archivists and historians from
northern and southern Indiana have been
cooperating to create a detailed history of
how A.A. came to Indiana, with each one
contributing a section on his or her part
of the state.

How A.A. Came to Indiana
http://hindsfoot.org/Nhome.html

Parts of it could perhaps be used as a model
for other states and provinces in the U.S.
and Canada. See for example:

Neil S. (Fishers IN),
"History of Indianapolis A.A."
http://hindsfoot.org/nindy2.html

"Adventure of Recovery: The Beginnings of
A.A. in Anderson, June 1943-February 9, 1947"
An article written by the A.A. group in
Anderson and published in their Handout
c. 1982, gives the story of George L., the
founder of A.A. in Anderson.
http://hindsfoot.org/nander1.html

Ilene S. (Warsaw, Indiana), "Historical
Highlights of the Monday Night Kosciusko
Combined Group." Early A.A. in Warsaw, North
Manchester, North Webster, Syracuse, South
Whitley, Columbia City, Milford, and other
nearby towns (including Rochester).
http://hindsfoot.org/nkosc1.html

Interview with John S. from Gary, Indiana,
by Beth M. (Lafayette), the chair of the
Area 22 Archives Committee.
http://hindsfoot.org/ngary1js.html

John Barleycorn, "A Nun's Story: Sister Ruth
Finds God in the A.A. Meetings," tells the
story of Sister Ruth, one of the inspiring
spiritual figures in A.A. in the Fort Wayne
area.
http://hindsfoot.org/barruth.html

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++++Message 5385. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Who are you to say there is no
God?
From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/5/2008 9:44:00 PM

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Mike,

That is only ONE example of how, without GSC
approval, the intent (big, bold letters for
emphasis) has been reduced to an afterthought
with the watering down to italics.

Who knows, by the time the Fifth Edition is
put out the beginning of the Fifth Chapter
might start off as "Hey, give it a try. Who
knows? You might even succeed."

- - - -

Shakey1aa at aol.com <Shakey1aa@aol.com> wrote:

In the 1st edit. Big Book(all printings) on
page 69 in the chapter We Agnostics, the
phrase "Who are you to say there is no God?"
is bold, double sized and not italicized.

I realize that a change in the Big Book
requires a conference action. I looked in
Advisory Actions of the General Service
Conference of AA 1951-1982 under literature
and saw no action to change this.

In the 2nd Ed. Big Book, on page 58 it is
no longer bold, double sized. It is now
italicized. Why?

The man that said this was Fitz M, "Our Southern
Friend." His story was quite edited from the
original.

Are there other examples of the same sentence
being used in a personal story and also in the
chapters up to Dr. Bob's story?

YIS
Shakey Mike Gwirtz
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA

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++++Message 5386. . . . . . . . . . . . Beatitudes for the begats
From: K G Jacob . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/6/2008 9:44:00 AM

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Dear Sirs

I am Jacob, an alcoholic.

In Twelve Steps & Twelve Traditions on page
30 we have the following quote:

"We were plumb disgusted with religion and all
its works. The Bible, we said, was full of
nonsense; we could cite it chapter and verse,
and we couldn't see the Beatitudes for the
'begats.'"

I find it impossible to understand the meaning
of "we couldn't see the Beatitudes for the
'begats.'"

I shall be most grateful if you could kindly
explain its meaning for me. Kindly note that
I am not a native English speaker, although
I am Christian and so am familiar with the
Bible.

Thanking you
Yours in fellowship
K G Jacob

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++++Message 5387. . . . . . . . . . . . Earliest Public Service video?
From: mrpetesplace . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/8/2008 11:49:00 AM

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I'm trying to find out what the earliest video
about AA for the public was available.

I just came across a full length version of
this news reel from 1946. I'd only seen 15
second clips in email until now. This version
is 5 minutes, 40 seconds long.

Is this the earliest P.I. type project?

And does anyone know who helped (for example
Bill W. or others) with this project?

Here are the details:

March of Time: Alcoholics Anonymous - 1946
news reel featuring a dramatic reenactment
of a newcomer's experience of AA.

I have this posted at aastuff.com right now.
Hope you all enjoy.

Peter F. - NC

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++++Message 5388. . . . . . . . . . . . Trust God, clean house, help others
From: Ernest Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/8/2008 2:55:00 PM

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Hi All --

I have been asked: Where and when is the
first citation for Dr. Bob's "prescription,"
or six-word summary treatment of the program
of Alcoholics Anonymous as:

1. Trust God
2. Clean house
3. Help others

???

I am not even certain that its originator is
Dr. Bob. To me, this sounds very Oxford Group.
But anyway: can any of you out there help on
the question[s] here?

With gratitude,

ernie kurtz

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++++Message 5389. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: the first twelve members of AA
From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/29/2008 7:35:00 PM

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In message 4418 from "greg merkel"
<gregandkathy41385@comcast.net>
(gregandkathy41385 at comcast.net)

TWO INCORRECT STATEMENTS WERE MADE:

1. THAT ERNIE GALBRAITH SHOWED UP SOBER
AT DR. BOB'S FUNERAL

"Hank Parkhust was one [of the first twelve
AA members who failed to stay sober] and so
was Ernie Galbraith. He showed up sober at
Dr. Bob's funeral."

2. THAT WILLIAM RUDDELL GOT SOBER IN
NOVEMBER 1935

Glenn C. gave a list of early AA members which
included this person from the New York City
area, whose story was put in the first edition
of the Big Book: "William Ruddell, sober
November 1935, A Businessman's Recovery."
______________________________

THE CORRECT INFORMATION IS:

1. IT WAS EDDIE REILLY WHO SHOWED UP SOBER
AT DR. BOB'S FUNERAL

See Message 3855 from "Tommy"
<recoveredbygrace@yahoo.com>
(recoveredbygrace at yahoo.com)

Children of the Healer: The Story of Dr.
Bob's Kids (Hazelden 1994 edition), page 126:

At Dr. Bob's funeral in 1950, Eddie showed up,
and told Dr. Bob's son Smitty that he had been
sober one year and was a member of the
Youngstown group.

Message 2337 from "ArtSheehan"
<ArtSheehan@msn.com> (ArtSheehan at msn.com)

Jun 11 (more likely Jun 18), Dr Bob suggested
that he and Bill W work with other alcoholics.
A local Minister, J C Wright, provided them
with a prospect. They tried in vain, throughout
the summer, to sober up Edgar (Eddie) Reilly
(described as an “alcoholic atheist” and “able
to produce a major crisis of some sort about
every other day”). Eddie missed the chance to
be AA #3 but he showed up at Dr Bob’s funeral
in 1950. He was sober a year and attending the
Youngstown, OH group. (AACOA 72-73, DBGO 77-81,
85, NG 37, 319, PIO 151-152, AAGA 184, CH
5-6)

2. WILLIAM RUDDELL GOT SOBER IN FEBRUARY 1937

William Ruddell's story, "A Business Man's
Recovery," can be read in Experience, Strength
& Hope: Stories from the First Three Editions
of Alcoholics Anonymous. On pages 30-31,
William Ruddell talked about meeting the AA
people and deciding to try their method of
turning to God in order to get sober. Then
in the middle of page 31, he said "That was
in February, 1937, and life took on an entirely
new meaning."
______________________________
______________________________
______________________________

ORIGINAL MESSAGE:
>
> Message 4413 from Aloke D. in India gave a
> list which was supposed to be the first twelve
> members of AA, and asked which ones failed
> to stay sober:
>
> Bill Wilson
> Dr. Bob Smith
> Bill Dotson
> Eddie Reilly
> Dr. McK.
> Bill Dotson
> Ernie Galbraith
> Hank Parkhurst
> Phil Smith
> Wes Wymans
> Fitz Mayo
> Freddie B. NY
> Brooke B. NY
>
> - - - -
>
> From: "greg merkel"
> <gregandkathy41385@comcast.net>
> (gregandkathy41385 at comcast.net)
>
> Hank Parkhust was one and so was Ernie Galbraith.
> He showed up sober at Dr. Bob's funeral.
>
> - - - -
>
> From the moderator, Glenn C. (South Bend, IN):
>
> That's not a very accurate list, to begin
> with. You've somehow or other got Bill Dotson
> on there twice, as was noted in messages sent
> in by:
>
> "John J. Clark" <johnnyjclark@...>
> (johnnyjclark at sbcglobal.net)
>
> "M.Eaton" <meaton1287@...>
> (meaton1287 at rogers.com)
>
> Shakey1aa@...
> (Shakey1aa at aol.com)
>
> Comments were also sent in suggesting that
> we can get too negativistically focused on
> failure, from
>
> Bill Lash <barefootbill@...>
> (barefootbill at optonline.net)
> "There is no such thing as a failure."
>
> "David Johnson" <crescentdave@...>
> (crescentdave at yahoo.com)
> "Failure is such a loaded word (pardon
> the inadvertent pun)."
>
> HERE IS A LIST OF EARLY AA MEMBERS which I
> assembled as part of a Big Book study.
> I cannot 100% guarantee the accuracy of this
> list, but I think it is nevertheless a more
> useful list than the list of twelve names
> which you have, for various reasons.
>
> (Big Book p. 159) Bill Wilson "leaving behind
> his first acquaintance [Dr. Bob], the lawyer
> [Bill Dotson], and the devil-may-care chap
> [Ernie Galbraith]" left Akron and took a
> train back home to New York in late August 1935.
> He had been in Akron a little over three months,
> most of it living in Dr. Bob and Anne Smith's
> home, where Bill and Dr. Bob had worked out
> the basic modifications which were going to
> have to be made to the Oxford Group methods so
> they would work better with alcoholics.
>
> (Big Book p. 159) "A year and six months later
> these three had succeeded with seven more,"
> that is, by the end of February 1937, there
> were a total of ten people in the Akron AA
> group. Among the early Akron AA's, some or
> all of the following people may have been
> included in that "seven more." For those
> whose stories appeared in the first edition
> of the Big Book, the title of the story is
> also given.
>
> We need to remember that at any given time,
> the count would have included people who had
> gotten sober but were not going to stay sober,
> and also people who got permanently sober in
> Akron but who then left to found AA groups
> in other cities, so it is probably impossible
> to completely reconstruct the list of seven
> people whom the Big Book authors were thinking
> of at this point.
>
> AKRON:
>
> Ernie Galbraith, "The Seven Month Slip," first
> got sober September 1935, but had continual
> trouble staying sober.
>
> Phil S., AA No. 5, sober September 1935,
> first AA court case.
>
> Tom Lucas, sober November 1935,
> "My Wife and I."
>
> Walter Bray, sober February 1936,
> "The Backslider."
>
> Joe Doppler, sober April 1936,
> "The European Drinker."
>
> Paul Stanley, sober April 1936,
> "The Truth Freed Me."
>
> Dick S. was regarded as AA No. 7.
>
> Bill V., Bob E., and Ken A. were all
> sober by 1937.
>
> James D. "J.D." Holmes, who founded the first
> AA group in Indiana, got sober in Akron in
> September 1936, and said that he was AA No. 10.
> But he had left Akron and gone to Evansville,
> Indiana, by the time the Big Book was written,
> so although he stayed sober till the end of
> his life, he was probably not counted among
> the seven people mentioned on page 159 of
> the Big Book.
>
> NEW YORK: during the same period, four of the
> people whose stories were in the first edition
> of the Big Book got sober in the New York area.
>
> Fitz Mayo, sober October 1935,
> "Our Southern Friend."
>
> Hank Parkhurst, sober November 1935,
> "The Unbeliever."
>
> William Ruddell, sober November 1935,
> "A Businessman's Recovery."
>
> Myron Williams, sober April 1936,
> "Hindsight."
>

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++++Message 5390. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Beatitudes for the begats
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/12/2008 8:20:00 PM

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In the King James Version (Authorized Version)
which was the principal English translation
of the Bible used from the seventeenth century
down the middle of the twentieth century:

THE BEATITUDES:

The Eight Beatitudes are found in the Gospel
of Matthew 5:3-10, at the beginning of Jesus'
Sermon on the Mount. They are called that
because in the Latin used in the medieval
Roman Catholic Church, beatus meant "blessed"
and beatitudo meant "blessedness."
______________________________

3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs
is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall
be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit
the earth.
6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst
after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall
obtain mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall
see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall
be called the children of God.
10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for
righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom
of heaven.
______________________________

THE "BEGATS":

A typical example can be found in the Gospel
of Matthew 1:1-16 of the long genealogies that
can be found in various places in the Bible.
In seventeenth century English, "begat" meant
"fathered." (Other examples of these long
genealogies can be found in Genesis 5, 10,
11, and 25; Ruth 4; and 1 Chronicles 1, 2, 4,
6, 8, and 9.)
______________________________

1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ,
the son of David, the son of Abraham.

2 Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob;
and Jacob begat Judah and his brethren; 3 and
Judah begat Pharez and Zerah of Tamar; and
Pharez begat Hezron; and Hezron begat Ram;
4 and Ram begat Ammin'adab; and Ammin'adab
begat Nahshon; and Nahshon begat Salmon; 5
and Salmon begat Boaz of Rachab; and Boaz
begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse;
6 and Jesse begat David the king. And David
the king begat Solomon of her that had been
the wife of Uri'ah; 7 and Solomon begat
Rehobo'am; and Rehobo'am begat Abi'jah; and
Abi'jah begat Asa; 8 and Asa begat
Jehosh'aphat; and Jehosh'aphat begat Jeho'ram;
and Jeho'ram begat Uzzi'ah; 9 and Uzzi'ah
begat Jotham; and Jotham begat Ahaz; and
Ahaz begat Hezeki'ah; 10 and Hezeki'ah begat
Manas'seh; and Manas'seh begat Amon; and Amon
begat Josi'ah; 11 and Josi'ah begat Jeconi'ah
and his brethren, about the time they were
carried away to Babylon. 12 And after they
were brought to Babylon, Jeconi'ah begat
She-al'ti-el; and She-al'ti-el begat Zerub'babel;
13 and Zerub'babel begat Abi'ud; and Abi'ud
begat Eli'akim; and Eli'akim begat Azor; 14
and Azor begat Zadok; and Zadok begat Achim;
and Achim begat Eli'ud; 15 and Eli'ud begat
Ele-a'zar; and Ele-a'zar begat Matthan; and
Matthan begat Jacob; 16 and Jacob begat
Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born
Jesus, who is called Christ.
17 So all the generations from Abraham to
David are fourteen generations; and from
David until the carrying away into Babylon
are fourteen generations; and from the
carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are
fourteen generations.
______________________________

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++++Message 5391. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Beatitudes for the begats
From: johnpublico . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/10/2008 9:20:00 AM

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Good question, Jacob. I think this quote
relates to the Book of Matthew.

In the first part (1:2-1:16) of the Book,
there are a lot of verses about biblical
genealogy (for example, "Abraham begat Isaac;
and Isaac begat Jacob"). The word "begat" is
an old-fashioned form of "beget", and it
simply means "sired" or "fathered."

Later in the Book of Matthew, there are verses
(5:3-5:10) related to the so-called "eight
beatitudes" of Christ. These tell us the
values that Christ cared most about. For
example, "Blessed are the merciful: for they
shall obtain mercy." Or, "Blessed are the
peacemakers: for they shall be called the
children of God."

These beatitudes are really core principles
of the Christian spiritual life. So, when
Bill says that he couldn't see the Beatitudes
from the 'begats,' he's telling us he couldn't
separate important spiritual principles from
the non-essential, formal elements of biblical
teaching.

It's much like the expression, that one
"can't separate the wheat from the chaff" or
"can't see the forest from the trees" -- it
just means you're not getting to the real
meaning of something.

Hope this helps.

John K.

- - - -

From: "jlobdell54" <jlobdell54@hotmail.com>
(jlobdell54 at hotmail.com)

The "Beatitudes" are of course the series of
"Blessed are the ..." in Matthew's Sermon on
the Mount, while the "begats" are in Genesis,
but also in the beginning of Matthew (echoing
Genesis) --

"and [so-and-so] lived [so many] years, and
he begat [son of so-and-so], and after he
begat [son of so and so] he lived [so-many-more]
years, and all the days of [so-and-so] were
[x hundred, x-ty, and x] years, and he died."

I am told there was an old New England
expression, "He can't see the Beatitudes for
the begats" (in other words, he gets involved
in unimportant details and can't see the
essential truth), but I haven't traced it
back.

- - - -

From: James Bliss <james.bliss@comcast.net>
(james.bliss at comcast.net)

The beatitudes are the list of 8 blessings at
the beginning of the sermon on mount .... The
begats would be a reference to the various
lists of the families 'Abraham was the father
of Isaac, Isaac the father of Jacob ....'

My reading of the statement is that we knew
the words of the Bible but not the true meaning
of the words. In my words, we knew the Bible
in our heads but not our hearts.

Jim

- - - -

From: Sober186@aol.com (Sober186 at aol.com)

What Bill was saying was that many alcoholics
would not wade through the boring stuff --
the begats -- to learn the really important
lessons found in the beatitudes.

Love and serve
Jim

- - - -

From: DudleyDobinson@aol.com
(DudleyDobinson at aol.com)

My understanding of this quote is that we can't
see the important things in life or the bible
(like the Beatitudes) because we cannot get
past the unimportant things (like the begats).

Another similar saying is "Can't see the forest
for the trees."

- - - -

From: S Sommers <scmws@yahoo.com>
(scmws at yahoo.com)

The way I've understood the expression about
"couldn't see the Beatitudes for the begats"
is that Bill W is combining the joke about
"not being able to see the forest for the
trees" with alliteration using a couple words
found nowadays almost exclusively in the Bible.
Bill is saying that we modern sophisticated
types get tangled in the language and don't
see the larger spiritual truths in scripture.

Like most wordy jokes, it loses much in the
explanation.

Thanks for everything.

Sam Sommers

- - - -

From: "elg3_79" <elg3_79@yahoo.com>
(elg3_79 at yahoo.com)

This dichotomy is in the Twelve Steps &
Twelve Traditions, in my humble opinion, to
distinguish the parts of the Bible with
positive exhortations toward spiritual living
from those which are historical or negatively
charged, and so encourage those (like myself)
who come to sobriety with an allergy to
religious literature.

YIS
Ted G.

- - - -

From: John Barton <jax760@yahoo.com>
(jax760 at yahoo.com)

Simply, it means we were clueless as to what
the verses meant in a spiritual sense. We
could cite chapter and verse but did not have
the ears to hear or the eyes to see .....
was blind but now I see .........

- - - -

From: "Mitchell K."
<mitchell_k_archivist@yahoo.com>
(mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com)

Like not seeing the forest for the trees. There
are those who memorize the Big Book and can
cite it chapter and verse. But how many of
those who can tell you on what line, page,
chapter in all four editions a certain phrase
can be found, still do not live the principles
of recovery in all their affairs?

- - - -

From: "hartsell" <hartsell@etex.net>
(hartsell at etex.net)

As with many such, this has entered into the
public conscience and is used for many
purposes other than its original intent --
as I read it -- to indicate the author's
confusion and, at the time, disdain for,
according to his then present perception,
contempt for the hypocricy of "religionists,"
only to come to understand that his own
hypocrisy was even worse.

sherry

- - - -

ORIGINAL MESSAGE:

Message #5386 from "K G Jacob"
<tvmdeps@gmail.com>
(tvmdeps@gmail.com)

In Twelve Steps & Twelve Traditions on page
30 we have the following quote:

"We were plumb disgusted with religion and all
its works. The Bible, we said, was full of
nonsense; we could cite it chapter and verse,
and we couldn't see the Beatitudes for the
'begats.'"

I find it impossible to understand the meaning
of "we couldn't see the Beatitudes for the
'begats.'"

I shall be most grateful if you could kindly
explain its meaning for me. Kindly note that
I am not a native English speaker.

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++++Message 5392. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Who are you to say there is no
God?
From: Steve Stevenson . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/10/2008 8:38:00 AM

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I was informed on this forum that Bill W.
was the one who moved the Dr.'s Opinion to the
Roman numeraled pages without Conference
approval.

If that is true, then changing some fonts
would also seem to be well within Bill's scope
of authority.

So, my question becomes, did the Conference
need to approve any changes in the book while
Bill was still alive?

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Shakey1aa@... wrote:
>
> In the 1st edit. Big Book(all printings) on
> page 69 in the chapter We Agnostics, the
> phrase "Who are you to say there is no God?"
> is bold,double sized and not italicized.
>
> I realize that a change in the Big Book
> requires a conference action. I looked in
> Advisory Actions of the General Service
> Conference of AA 1951-1982 under literature
> and saw no action to change this.
>
> In the 2nd Ed. Big Book, on page 58 it is
> no longer bold, double sized. It is now
> italicized. Why?
>
> The man that said this was Fitz M,"Our Southern
> Friend." His story was quite edited from the
> original.
>
> Are there other examples of the same sentence
> being used in a personal story and also in the
> chapters up to Dr. Bob's story?
>
> YIS
> Shakey Mike Gwirtz
> Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
>

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++++Message 5393. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Who are you to say there is no
God?
From: David . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/10/2008 11:26:00 PM

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Oh, I don't think we need to worry about that.
Style manuals are pretty unanimous in referring
to italicized words as being a way to draw
emphasis. They caution against their overuse,
as italicized words are meant to draw attention.
Then there's the actual meaning of the words
and they haven't changed.

I am curious, however, as to whether or not
we have the original script Fitz M wrote.
It would be instructive to review what was
edited and what remained the same. I would
especially be interested in whether or not he
oversized and bolded this phrase.

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Mitchell K."
<mitchell_k_archivist@...> wrote:
>
> Mike,
>
> That is only ONE example of how, without GSC
> approval, the intent (big, bold letters for
> emphasis) has been reduced to an afterthought
> with the watering down to italics.
>
> Who knows, by the time the Fifth Edition is
> put out the beginning of the Fifth Chapter
> might start off as "Hey, give it a try. Who
> knows? You might even succeed."
>
> - - - -
>
> Shakey1aa at aol.com <Shakey1aa@...> wrote:
>
> In the 1st edit. Big Book(all printings) on
> page 69 in the chapter We Agnostics, the
> phrase "Who are you to say there is no God?"
> is bold, double sized and not italicized.
>
> I realize that a change in the Big Book
> requires a conference action. I looked in
> Advisory Actions of the General Service
> Conference of AA 1951-1982 under literature
> and saw no action to change this.
>
> In the 2nd Ed. Big Book, on page 58 it is
> no longer bold, double sized. It is now
> italicized. Why?
>
> The man that said this was Fitz M, "Our Southern
> Friend." His story was quite edited from the
> original.
>
> Are there other examples of the same sentence
> being used in a personal story and also in the
> chapters up to Dr. Bob's story?
>
> YIS
> Shakey Mike Gwirtz
> Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
>

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++++Message 5394. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Trust God, clean house, help
others
From: Sober186@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/9/2008 9:02:00 PM

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Not exactly those words but very close. Big
Book, Page 98. "Burn the idea into the
consciousness of every man that he can get
well regardless of anyone. The only condition
is that he trust in God and clean house. Now,
the domestic problem: There may be divorce,
separation, or just strained relations."

- - - -

Original message #5388 from Ernest Kurtz
<kurtzern@umich.edu> (kurtzern at umich.edu)

Hi All --

I have been asked: Where and when is the
first citation for Dr. Bob's "prescription,"
or six-word summary treatment of the program
of Alcoholics Anonymous as:

1. Trust God
2. Clean house
3. Help others

???

I am not even certain that its originator is
Dr. Bob. To me, this sounds very Oxford Group.
But anyway: can any of you out there help on
the question[s] here?

With gratitude,

ernie kurtz

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++++Message 5395. . . . . . . . . . . . Other organizations using an
anonymity principle?
From: Fred . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/1/2008 11:56:00 PM

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Were there any other organizations or groups
prior to the beginning of the AA movement
which had similar principles of public
anonymity or statements about the need for
public anonymity?

Were there any other organizations or groups
which were practicing similar principles of
public anonymity during AA's early years?
That is, during the time when early AA was
struggling with Rollie Hemsley's public
announcement of his AA membership, Bill & Bob's
letterhead endorsement of Marty Mann's National
Council on Alcoholism, and such.

For example, like the Emanuel Movement,
Washingtonians, Oxford Group, etc. etc., etc.

Thanx For everything you all do,
Fred from Ohio

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++++Message 5396. . . . . . . . . . . . Joe D., The European Drinker
From: claus larosse . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/7/2008 2:27:00 PM

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Hallo. my name is Claus, and i am an Alkoholik.

I am a member of a Danish Big Book study group (SBS).

I am to do the introduction to the European
Drinker and since I'm in good time, I would
like to add some history facts to it.

I have found out the story is Joe D.'s, perhaps
the first Roman Catholic in AA.

I believe he was one of the reasons that
Dilworth Lupton (at the invitation of Dorothy
S., wife of Clarence S. "The Home Brewmeister"),
had written one of the first pamphlets about
AA, "Mister X and Alcoholics Anonymous." Even
though the pamphlet regards Clarence S., I have
a feeling Joe D. was the main reason Dilworth
Lupton would have anything to do with AA, since
the fact that Joe D.'s name came up in a
document finally convinced Dilworth Lupton
that AA finally was independent of the Oxford
group.

This may be incorrect and there might be more
to the story. Would some of you oldtimers care
to enlighten me?

Thank you, and thank you all for this wonderful
group.

Loving greetings Claus.

--
Knus.

Claus Rask Larosse
Stubdrupvej 211.
7100 Vejle
Tlf. 23252344

Reminder from GOD.

Practice Love, It is the great lesson. Do all
you can and leave the rest to Me. Fear not I
am your Advocate.

- - - -

From the moderator:

Nancy Olson's biography of Joe says that he
was from Cleveland and was probably the first
Roman Catholic in AA. We know that large
numbers of Roman Catholics in Cleveland became
interested in AA at a very early date, but
that most felt that they could not join as
long as AA was part of the Protestant Oxford
Group.

Clarence Snyder finally had to go to Dr. Bob
and insist that the Akron AA group make an
official break with the Oxford Group, for
the sake of these Roman Catholic alcoholics
in Cleveland.

But it was not just Roman Catholics who had
problems with the Oxford Group because of its
strong Protestant evangelical style. There
were Protestant denominations which had problems
with that kind of belief, including of course
the Unitarians.

Nancy Olson tells us that the Rev. Dilworth
Lupton, of the First Unitarian Church in
Cleveland, felt so negatively about the
Oxford Group and its practices, that he wanted
nothing at all to do with AA as long as it
was part of the Oxford Group.

(Richmond Walker, the author of Twenty-Four
Hours a Day, was from a Unitarian background.
His son told me that Rich continued to attend
the Unitarian Church all his life. Rich tried
to get sober in the Oxford Group, but only
lasted two and a half years before he relapsed.
It was too alien to his religious background.
His father had been an extreme Unitarian
who had been one of the signatories of the
Humanist Manifesto. Rich was only able to get
permanently sober after he joined the AA group
in Boston in May 1942, and began working out
his own kind of spirituality, which in many
ways had closer ties to the old New England
Transcendentalists than to any kind of Jesus-
oriented, bible-quoting, heavily evangelical
style. The Transcendentalists -- Ralph Waldo
Emerson, Henry David Thoreau, Orestes Brownson,
William Henry Channing, Bronson Alcott, and
so on -- had been part of the same world as
the early Unitarians.)

The Unitarians (like the Southern Methodists
who published the Upper Room) felt very
strongly that good spirituality had to
practice a spirit of tolerance, where men
and women of all sorts of different religious
traditions could learn to respect one another
and work with one another, as long as their
hearts were filled with love for their fellow
human beings. Good spirituality should be
inclusive instead of exclusive, reaching out
to our fellow human beings in love, instead
of mounting continual attacks on everybody
who did not believe exactly as we did. There
was too much in the Oxford Group, they
believed, of excluding people who were "not
maximum" (as they did with Bill Wilson in
New York) and other kinds of exclusiveness
in their approach.

Glenn C., South Bend, Indiana, USA

- - - -

http://www.a-1associates.com/westbalto/HISTORY_PAGE/Authors.htm

NANCY OLSON'S BIOGRAPHY

The European Drinker -- Joe Doppler (Doeppler?),
Cleveland, Ohio. Original Manuscript, p. 206
in 1st edition, p. 230 in 2nd and 3rd editions

Beer and wine were not the answer

Joe's date of sobriety was April 1936. He was 12th stepped by Dr. Bob, and
was
probably the first Roman Catholic in A.A.

He was born in Germany and grew up on "good Rhine wine of song and story."
His
parents wanted him to become a priest and he attended a Franciscan school at
Basle, Switzerland. But although he was a good Catholic, the monastic life
did
not appeal to him, so he became a harness-maker and upholsterer.

He drank about a quart of wine a day, which was common in his part of the
world.
Everybody drank wine.

He did his compulsory military service, and took part in the Boxer Rebellion
in
China. There he experimented with more potent beverages. When he returned to
Germany he resumed his wine drinking.

At age twenty-four, he came to America and settled in Cleveland where he had
relatives. He founded a mattress factory and was doing well with his general
upholstering work, and there was every indication that he would be
financially
independent by the time he was middle aged. By this time he was married and
was
paying for a home.

He thought American wine inferior to German so drank beer instead. When
Prohibition became law he quit drinking altogether, since he couldn't get
what
he liked. He hardly tasted anything for two years.

Soon like his friends, he began to drink home-brew, which was a lot stronger
than he had been used to. More and more he started doing some of his
business in
the speakeasy. There he could buy whiskey, which was easier to transport
than
beer or wine, and he developed a taste for hard liquor.

It soon became obvious that he had a problem with alcohol. He became a
periodic
drinker, and was eased out of the business he had founded and was reduced to
doing general upholstery in a small shop at the back of his house.

His wife complained about his drinking, so he hid bottles all over the
house. At
times he would resolve never to drink again and pour out full pints and
smash
the bottles, only to find himself frantically searching for any he missed so
he
could have a drink.

He began to absence himself from the church where he had formerly been a
member
of the choir. He never asked the priest to give him the pledge like many
other
Catholic alcoholics did. (It was common at that time for Roman Catholics who
had
problems with alcohol to pledge to a priest that they would stop drinking.
It
usually didn't work if the man was an alcoholic.)

Then occurred the event that saved him. Dr. Bob visited him. He did not ask
any
questions except whether he was definite about his desire to quit drinking.
There were no more than four or five in Dr. Bob's group at the time, but
they
befriended him. He was advised "You've been trying man's ways and they
always
fail. You can't win unless you try God's way."

He had no problem with what they were teaching him because his church taught
the
same thing. He put into practice what he was being taught and soon Dr. Bob
sent
him to talk to other alcoholics.

The first few months were hard: business trials, little worries, and
feelings of
general despondency nearly drove him to the bottle, but he made progress in
the
spiritual life.

"As I go along I seem to get strength daily to be able to resist more
easily.
And when I get upset, cross-grained and out of tune with my fellow man I
know
that I am out of tune with God. Searching where I have been at fault, it is
not
hard to discover and get right again, for I have proven to myself and to
many
others who know me that God can keep a man sober if he will let him."

Dorothy Snyder, the wife of Clarence Snyder ("The Home Brewmeister"), was
eager
to help this group reach other alcoholics. She approached Rev. Dilworth
Lupton,
of the First Unitarian Church in Cleveland, concerning the group, but he was
negative about the Oxford Group and wanted nothing to do with it. After the
Cleveland members broke away from the Oxford Group, she approached him
again,
this time with a copy of the book and with the names of some Roman Catholics
who
were members. Among the names was that of Joe Doppler. The fact Joe Doppler
was
associated with this new Cleveland group was sufficient proof to Reverend
Lupton
that the alcoholic fellowship had indeed broken with the Oxford Group, and
he
offered to help in any way he could.

He preached a sermon called "Mr. X. and Alcoholics Anonymous," which Dorothy
arranged to have covered by the press. It was later made into one of the
first
pamphlets used by Cleveland A.A.

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++++Message 5397. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Who are you to say there is no
God?
From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/12/2008 9:55:00 PM

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At 07:38 12/10/2008, Steve Stevenson wrote:

> I was informed on this forum that Bill W.
>was the one who moved the Dr.'s Opinion to the
>Roman numeraled pages without Conference
>approval.
>
>If that is true, then changing some fonts
>would also seem to be well within Bill's scope
>of authority.
>
>So, my question becomes, did the Conference
>need to approve any changes in the book while
>Bill was still alive?
>
>

I believe there were ninty-odd changes made
from the First Printing of the First Edition
thru the Sixteenth Printing of the First
Edition.

Since the Conference wasn't formed until some
time in the 1950s, the changes were certainly
made without its approval. Recall that when
the Big Book was published, there were only
about 100 members of A.A., hardly enough to
sustain a conference.

The wording of the 12th Step in the first
printing, "Having had a Spiritual Experience
as the result of these steps," caused a certain
amount of controversy at the time about what
sort of experience was necessary and valid.
As a result of this, the wording was changed
to what it is today in the Second Printing.
Appendix II "Spiritual Experience" was also
added.

I suspect Wilson tried to gauge what the
consensus was and put it into effect.

There are some who think Wilson saw that there
was a strong consensus not to make significant
changes to the Big Book and that motivated
him to write the 12x12 part on the Steps.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

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++++Message 5398. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Who are you to say there is no
God?
From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/13/2008 8:49:00 PM

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Hi Tommy

The basic text of the Big Book is pretty much
"protected" from radical change by the prevail-
ing sentiment of the AA Fellowship as a whole.
It has also been reinforced (particularly in
regard to the 4th edition) by Conference
advisory actions. Changes to the Big Book can
be accomplished by Conference advisory action.
I doubt though that they would get too far if
they were anything beyond very minor.

The 2nd edition Big Book was introduced at the
1955 International Convention in St Louis. That
same international convention approved the
permanent Conference Charter based on the
recommendation of the 5th General Service
Conference which also met in St Louis in 1955.
The Conferences began in 1951. Up to 1955 they
were considered "experimental."

Prior to publication of the 2nd edition (perhaps
the late 1940's) Bill W sensed that the
Fellowship was resistant to changing the basic
text of the Big Book. In his presentation to
the 1955 General Service Conference, he was
careful to inform them that the main objective
of the 2nd edition was to change the personal
stories to better reflect the makeup of the
membership. His report stated: "Not an iota"
of the first part of the text dealing with
recovery principles had been changed.

The inside of the dust jacket of the 2nd edition
states "Of course, the basic text itself, page
1 to page 165 [sic], remains substantially
unchanged. To the minds of most AAs, this should
stand as first written."

The page numbering of the 1st edition basic
text was 1 to 179 not 1 to 164. "The Doctors
Opinion" was originally page 1. "Bill's Story"
became page 1 in the 2nd edition. Nobody
really knows why Bill W renumbered the pages
but there is much creative and entertaining
speculation.

The 2006 Conference passed an advisory action
to add the word "largely" to the 2nd sentence
of the 2nd paragraph of the Preface to the
4th edition so that it reads "Therefore, the
first portion of this volume, describing the
AA recovery program, has been left largely
untouched in the course of revisions made for
the second, third and fourth editions." The
2006 Conference also made a similar change to
the introduction in the book "Experience,
Strength and Hope."

There have been many wording changes over the
years to the basic text (including two changes
to Step 12). The wording of Step 12 was first
changed in the 2nd printing of the 1st edition.
The term "spiritual experience" was changed to
"spiritual awakening" and "as the result of
these steps" was changed to "as the result of
those steps." Appendix II "Spiritual Experience"
was added. Father Ed Dowling expressed his
dissatisfaction with the change in his address
to the 1955 International Conference (see "AA
Comes of Age" pg 256). The wording of Step 12
was changed back to "as the result of these
steps" in 1956 in the 2nd printing of the 2nd
edition (there was no Conference advisory action
on this).

A number of web sites have tables that detail
the wording changes from edition to edition.

Several Conference advisory actions related to
the 4th edition specified that no changes were
to be made to the forewords, basic text,
appendices and "Dr. Bob's Nightmare." They
were to "remain as is." This pretty much
represents the ongoing sentiment of the AA
membership that emerged with 2nd edition (1955).

In the 4th edition, punctuation changes were
made to "Dr. Bob's Nightmare." It appeared that
the Trustee's Literature Committee was non-
responsive to the Conference's advisory actions
that the story "remain as is." It was likely
an honest mistake since there were so many
Conference advisory actions on the matter. In
two of those advisory actions, the Conference
authorized the Literature Committee to make
punctuation changes if they were done to correct
errors. On the other hand "remain as is" means
"remain as is." The 2003 Conference let the
changes stand. The 2004 Conference passed a
floor action to restore the original punctuation.

One more interesting change made by the
Conference was a statement in the 1st printing
of the 4th edition "Foreword to the Fourth
Edition" that read "Fundamentally, though,
the difference between an electronic meeting
and the home group around the corner is only
one of format." This didn't go over well and
the sentence was eliminated by advisory action
of the 2002 Conference.

Cheers
Arthur

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tom Hickcox
Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 8:55 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Who are you to say there is no God?

At 07:38 12/10/2008, Steve Stevenson wrote:

> I was informed on this forum that Bill W.
>was the one who moved the Dr.'s Opinion to the
>Roman numeraled pages without Conference
>approval.
>
>If that is true, then changing some fonts
>would also seem to be well within Bill's scope
>of authority.
>
>So, my question becomes, did the Conference
>need to approve any changes in the book while
>Bill was still alive?
>
>

I believe there were ninty-odd changes made
from the First Printing of the First Edition
thru the Sixteenth Printing of the First
Edition.

Since the Conference wasn't formed until some
time in the 1950s, the changes were certainly
made without its approval. Recall that when
the Big Book was published, there were only
about 100 members of A.A., hardly enough to
sustain a conference.

The wording of the 12th Step in the first
printing, "Having had a Spiritual Experience
as the result of these steps," caused a certain
amount of controversy at the time about what
sort of experience was necessary and valid.
As a result of this, the wording was changed
to what it is today in the Second Printing.
Appendix II "Spiritual Experience" was also
added.

I suspect Wilson tried to gauge what the
consensus was and put it into effect.

There are some who think Wilson saw that there
was a strong consensus not to make significant
changes to the Big Book and that motivated
him to write the 12x12 part on the Steps.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

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++++Message 5399. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: the first twelve members of AA
From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/13/2008 9:00:00 PM

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Bill R (Big Book story "A Business Man's
Recovery") was the first Board Chairman of
the Alcoholic Foundation.

He returned to drinking and had to resign
from the board in February 1939 after serving
less than 5 months.

He reputedly sobered up again but I don't
know the date. He passed away in 1962.

Cheers
Arthur

- - - -

Original message 5389
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/5389

<jax760@yahoo.com> (<jax760at yahoo.com) said that:

Bill R. got sober in February 1937, NOT
November 1935 (as incorrectly stated in an
earlier message).

Bill R.'s story, "A Business Man's
Recovery," can be read in Experience, Strength
& Hope: Stories from the First Three Editions
of Alcoholics Anonymous. On pages 30-31,
Bill R. talked about meeting the AA
people and deciding to try their method of
turning to God in order to get sober. Then
in the middle of page 31, he said "That was
in February, 1937, and life took on an entirely
new meaning."

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++++Message 5400. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Earliest Public Service video?
From: Chris Budnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/11/2008 4:57:00 AM

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I have an advertisement for The March of Time
that I have scanned. If interested in a copy,

email me:

<cbudnick@nc.rr.com> (cbudnick at nc.rr.com)

- - - -

March of Time: Alcoholics Anonymous - 1946
news reel featuring a dramatic reenactment
of a newcomer's experience of AA.

I have this posted at aastuff.com right now.
Hope you all enjoy.

Peter F. - NC

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++++Message 5401. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Other organizations using an
anonymity principle?
From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/13/2008 5:50:00 PM

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--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,
"Fred" <Fritz689@...> wrote:

> Were there any other organizations or groups
> prior to the beginning of the AA movement
> which had similar principles of public
> anonymity or statements about the need for
> public anonymity?

> For example, like the Emanuel Movement,
> Washingtonians, Oxford Group, etc., etc.

- - - -

I don't know about the Washingtonians, but I
do have some impressions of the other two
groups you mention. The Emmanuel movement was
really not a "movement" in the organizational
sense, really just the religious healing
philosophy of Elwood Worcester. He was the
rector of Emmanuel Episcopal church in Boston
and the main author of the two associated books.

http://hindsfoot.org/kDub2.html

McComb was his assistant, Peabody and Baylor
and others were trained by them. There were
spin-off clinics in New York and California,
possibly elsewhere, but none with a formal or
legal connection to the main clinic in Boston.
Peabody became independent, but that can't
really be called anonymity. He just wasn't
working for Worcester any more.

The Oxford Groupers, on the other hand, had
a somewhat deceptive form of anonymity which
they used when trying to get new people to
come to meetings. I've had a chance to read
through the papers of a few people who were
active members in the 1920s and 1930s, and
there is a pattern to the letters they sent
to old friends and acquaintances.

They would start out like an ordinary letter,
mentioning the last time they saw the person
or something about the family, then say some-
thing like "You know, I've been thinking. . ."
about how important it is for people of
conviction to live their convictions, etc.,
then say that they'd just recently been
invited to attend a meeting with some nice
people who had some of the same questions
. . ."I'm a pretty skeptical guy of course,
so I didn't expect to be impressed . . . But
you know, I got to thinking. . . Could there
actually be something to this? So I wondered
what you would think . . . I'm sending some
of the written material they gave me . . .
would appreciate your reaction . . . ."

This is all a paraphrase, of course, but you
get the idea. It is being written by someone
who is in fact deeply immersed in the group,
pretending to be "just checking them out,"
for purposes of recruitment. And these were
people who were scrupulously ethical in every
other respect. It isn't too hard to see how
the OG got a bad name.

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++++Message 5402. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Other organizations using an
anonymity principle?
From: John Lee . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/14/2008 1:46:00 PM

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Secret societies and fraternities have existed
in America since the early 1700s. Many of the
Founding Fathers were Freemasons. Skull and
Bones was formed at Yale in the early 1830s.
The "Know Nothing" Party was quite influential
in pushing a nativist agenda in the 1850s.
Rituals and teachings were secretive in these
organizations, limited to the initiated.

Alcoholics Anonymous has never been a secret
society; rather, it's always been a spiritual
service movement. Anonymity is cherished in AA
for purposes of service, equality and humility,
rather than for secrecy.

The 11th Tradition of AA requests anonymity
AT the level of press, radio and films,
indicating the exact point at which AA members
are anonymous. Co-founder Doctor Bob is quoted
in Doctor Bob and the Good Old Timers as
indicating that AA members shouldn't be so
anonymous that drunks can't find help. AA's
emphasis on the spiritual benefits of anonymity
is AA's distinctive contribution.

John Lee
Pittsburgh

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++++Message 5403. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill R
From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/14/2008 5:45:00 PM

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Bill R died sober 9 June 1961 (tape by Kathleen
R in GSO Archives, noted in the newsletter of
the Kirk/CAAS Collections at Brown, CULTURE
ALCOHOL & SOCIETY QUARTERLY, Vol. 3 no. 6),
and I have found no evidence that he drank in
1939, only that he feared drinking and possibly
that he had not been continuously sober since
first coming in.

Harry B., his successor, did drink at a bon
voyage party on one of the Queens, but he
died sober in the early/mid/1960s, with (I
think) more than twenty years sobriety.

Bill and Kathleen's daughter was the first
"AA baby" and btw there was an interesting
Grapevine article by Bill's nephew down in
Huntsville, Alabama a couple of years ago.

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++++Message 5404. . . . . . . . . . . . Stadium photos from International
Conventions
From: stockholmfellowship . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/14/2008 6:08:00 PM

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Does anyone know where I could find photos
from past International AA Conventions? I am
only interested in those huge stadium photos
of the tens of thousands of people attending
the main meetings.

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++++Message 5405. . . . . . . . . . . . Amend vs. amends, and Grammar
From: pauguspass . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/14/2008 10:28:00 PM

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Hi there,

There are little quirks in AA Speak that crop
up in meetings.

So I'm kind of stuck on 'amends.' We make
'amends' to another person (with an s on the
end). But can we make AN amend? I cannot
find 'amend' (without an s on the end) as a
noun.

If 'amend' isn't a noun, I'm going to have to
make amends to the person I told to use it as
one.

Thanks.

George Cleveland

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++++Message 5406. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Other organizations using an
anonymity principle?
From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/15/2008 9:21:00 AM

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Some Washingtonian accounts use initials rather
than names, some simply avoid indicating last
names or initials, but this is similar to news
items of the time generally (an account of a
duel, for example, might refer to Mr. A. B.
and Mr. A. H.). This may have been a carry-over
in America from British newspapers forced to
deal with 17th-19th century British libel law.
The "Experience Meeting" chapter in Tim
Arthur's Six Nights With the Washingtonians
would be a case in point. Though the original
query doesn't mention the Keeley League, we
might note the KL does not seem to have had
any anonymity provision -- but of course the
real point of contrast is the Oxford Group --
where the idea was to publicize "name"
conversions.

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++++Message 5407. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Other organizations using an
anonymity principle?
From: johnlawlee . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/15/2008 2:21:00 PM

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The Oxford Group "recruiters" didn't contact
others anonymously, Cora. They weren't sending
those recruitment letters without a signature
or return address. The OG approach might have
been misleading or disingenuous, but it wasn't
anonymous. I've been called dozens of times
for lunch, where the caller's true purpose was
to sell me something or get me to make a
charitable contribution. Those calls were
duplicitous, not anonymous.

John Lee
Pittsburgh

- - - -

Message 5401 from <corafinch@yahoo.com>
(corafinch at yahoo.com)

> The Oxford Groupers, on the other hand, had
> a somewhat deceptive form of anonymity which
> they used when trying to get new people to
> come to meetings. I've had a chance to read
> through the papers of a few people who were
> active members in the 1920s and 1930s, and
> there is a pattern to the letters they sent
> to old friends and acquaintances.
>
> They would start out like an ordinary letter,
> mentioning the last time they saw the person
> or something about the family, then say some-
> thing like "You know, I've been thinking. . ."
> about how important it is for people of
> conviction to live their convictions, etc.,
> then say that they'd just recently been
> invited to attend a meeting with some nice
> people who had some of the same questions
> . . ."I'm a pretty skeptical guy of course,
> so I didn't expect to be impressed . . . But
> you know, I got to thinking. . . Could there
> actually be something to this? So I wondered
> what you would think . . . I'm sending some
> of the written material they gave me . . .
> would appreciate your reaction . . . ."
>
> This is all a paraphrase, of course, but you
> get the idea. It is being written by someone
> who is in fact deeply immersed in the group,
> pretending to be "just checking them out,"
> for purposes of recruitment.

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++++Message 5408. . . . . . . . . . . . Thomas H. Uzzell''s later life
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/15/2008 2:54:00 PM

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Thomas H. Uzzell was a former editor of
Collier's magazine, taught for a while at
New York University, etc. He did the some
important editing on the Big Book manuscript
in Janury 1939, as we know.

See for example Message 2590:
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/2590

What information do we have about his LATER
life?

That is, in the years AFTER his work on the
Big Book manuscript in 1939?

Did he ever become an AA member? If not, do
we know why he was so interested in AA?

Was he married? Have children? Are any of his
family still living? Where was he living when
he died? Is there an obituary from the city
he died in?

It has been said by some sources that he
eventually went to teach at a university in
Oklahoma. Is this correct?

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++++Message 5409. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Thomas H. Uzzell''s later life
From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/15/2008 5:16:00 PM

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From CULTURE ALCOHOL & SOCIETY QUARTERLY
newsletter of Kirk/CAAS Collections at Brown
(Vol. 3 no. 6):

Notes: Early AA: Thomas Hayes Uzzell.

Thomas Hayes Uzzell (b. Denver Oct 25 1884
d. Los Angeles Nov 11 1975, who m. Camelia
Waite) had two children, one of whom,
Camelia Uzzell Berry, published a book OKLAHOMA
PRAIRIE PLOWED UNDER (Cortez CO: Mesa Verde
Press -- I think around 1998).

Uzzell was the son of Charles S Uzzell, the
"Rocky Mountain Evangelist" (1853-1890), who
d. in CA, and Estella Alexander Uzzell (b.
1861?), who remarried, a man named Frank May
(or Nay?), the same age she was: they had
children Lucile (b. 1893), Lloyd B. (b.
1896?), and John (b. 1899?), and lived in
Calumet IL in 1910, Tom Uzzell living with
them at that point.

(Charles S. Uzzell's older brother, converted
with him in 1871, was also Thomas H. Uzzell.)

Our Thomas H. Uzzell graduated Phi Beta Kappa
from the University of Minnesota, did graduate
work at Harvard and Columbia, was an editor
with the government in DC in 1917, living with
his wife at 4421 15th St, traveled to Europe
on economic investigation in 1919-20 and again
in 1920-21, was later with Collier's in NYC,
then ran a writer's school, the Thomas H.
Uzzell School (actually run, according to Mary
Cheever, who was briefly her secretary, by his
wife).

He wrote a number of books, including NARRATIVE
TECHNIQUE (1923), (ed) SHORT STORY UNITS
(2 vols 1933/34), TECHNIQUE OF THE NOVEL:
A HANDBOOK (1947, 1959), TWILIGHT OF SELF
GOVERNMENT (1961/2), and a novel GRANDEE JIM
(1973).

I ... emailed Clancy I in Long Beach/LA to
see if he knows if Bill W visited Tom Uzzell
at the time of the 1960 Convention [he
doesn't]. What I [also] don't know is whether
there was any particular personal connection
between Bill or any of the other early AAs
and Tom Uzzell, though Jim B’s history suggests
it was Hank P. who brought Tom into the
equation.

As far as later life is concerned, I haven't
been able to find out much -- Good luck!

> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
> From: glennccc@sbcglobal.net
> Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 11:54:19 -0800
> Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Thomas H. Uzzell's later life
>
> Thomas H. Uzzell was a former editor of
> Collier's magazine, taught for a while at
> New York University, etc. He did the some
> important editing on the Big Book manuscript
> in Janury 1939, as we know.
>
> See for example Message 2590:
> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/2590
>
> What information do we have about his LATER
> life?
>
> That is, in the years AFTER his work on the
> Big Book manuscript in 1939?
>
> Did he ever become an AA member? If not, do
> we know why he was so interested in AA?
>
> Was he married? Have children? Are any of his
> family still living? Where was he living when
> he died? Is there an obituary from the city
> he died in?
>
> It has been said by some sources that he
> eventually went to teach at a university in
> Oklahoma. Is this correct?

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++++Message 5410. . . . . . . . . . . . prayer request for Ray G.
From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/16/2008 10:42:00 PM

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Just got an e-mail message that Ray G. is
going in for surgery tomorrow (Wednesday) in
Florida. Please keep Ray in your thoughts
and prayers for a speedy recovery if that be
God's will.

Mitchell

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++++Message 5411. . . . . . . . . . . . Medical study, emotionally immature
and grandiose
From: edgarc@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/16/2008 4:56:00 AM

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In discussion of Step 12 in the Twelve and
Twelve, the text talks on page 123 of a
medical study that found AAs were in general
". . . childish, emotionally immature, and
grandiose . . ."

Any idea about who was involved in the study,
who underwrote it, where its results were
published, size and methodology of the
subject base, etc.?

Edgar C, Sarasota, Florida

- - - -

From the moderator: that phrase is taken from
the following passage from the Twelve and
Twelve Traditions, pp. 122-124:

But not so with alcoholics. When A.A. was
quite young, a number of eminent psychologists
and doctors made an exhaustive study of a
good-sized group of so-called problem drinkers.
The doctors weren't trying to find how different
we were from one another; they sought to find
whatever personality traits, if any, this
group of alcoholics had in common. They
finally came up with a conclusion that shocked
the A.A. members of that time. These
distinguished men had the nerve to say that
most of the alcoholics under investigation
were still childish, emotionally sensitive,
and grandiose.

How we alcoholics did resent that verdict! We
would not believe that our adult dreams were
often truly childish . . . . As to our
grandiose behavior, we insisted that we had
been possessed of nothing but a high and
legitimate ambition to win the battle of life.

In the years since, however, most of us have
come to agree with those doctors. We have had
a much keener look at ourselves and those
about us. We have seen that we were prodded
by unreasonable fears or anxieties into making
a life business of winning fame, money, and
what we thought was leadership. So false
pride became the reverse side of that ruinous
coin marked "Fear." We simply had to be number
one people to cover up our deep-lying inferior-
ities . . . .

But today, in well-matured A.A.'s, these
distorted drives have been restored to something
like their true purpose and direction. We no
longer strive to dominate or rule those about
us in order to gain self-importance. We no
longer seek fame and honor in order to be
praised . . . . True leadership, we find,
depends upon able example and not upon vain
displays of power or glory.

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++++Message 5412. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill R
From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/15/2008 5:36:00 PM

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At 16:45 12/14/2008, jlobdell54 wrote:

>Harry B., his successor, did drink at a bon
>voyage party on one of the Queens, but he
>died sober in the early/mid/1960s, with (I
>think) more than twenty years sobriety.

I assume you are referring the RMS Queen
Elizabeth and Queen Mary of the Cunard White
Star Line.

QE saw no service before WW2. QM saw civilian
service up until the outbreak of WW2 in Europe
the fall of 1939.

Both were laid up on the U.S. east coast
until they were converted to troop ships.
They did not return to civilian service until
1947, so Harry B's date of sobriety would
have to be either pre-1940 or post-1947 and
make the statement "more than twenty years
sobriety" an error.

>Bill and Kathleen's daughter was the first
>"AA baby" and btw there was an interesting
>Grapevine article by Bill's nephew down in
>Huntsville, Alabama a couple of years ago.

Grapevine articles are now available online,
although a subscription is required. Could
you give us some more specific info on the
article so those of us interested could
look it up?

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

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++++Message 5413. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Amend vs. amends, and Grammar
From: Edie Stanger . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/15/2008 10:24:00 PM

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In my 2,046-page Webster's New Twentieth
Century Dictionary, published in 1966 (but
I don't think changed since 1904), there is
no noun usage for amend, only a verb.

Actually, when you find you are wrong, you
can promptly admit it, more in the spirit
of the 10th step.

Edie Stanger

- - - -

From the moderator:

The verb is to "amend."

The noun is "amends" with an "s" on the
end, whether we are talking about correcting
one harm or many.

It's strange, since I have often heard AA
people talk about "making an amend" with no
"s" on the end, but in all the English
dictionaries I have checked (and also in
all the dictionaries which the other people
below have looked at) there is apparently no
such word in good English usage.

The noun is "amends" with an "s" on the end,
whether it is singular or plural. So if I
have to go to three people and repair some harm
which I did to each of them (three different
acts of amendment), I say "I must make SOME
amends." If I have to go to one person and
repair a harm which I did to that person, I
say "I must make AN amends."

I think it's important to realize though,
that nobody ever got sober by learning how
to talk about the program grammatically,
and likewise nobody ever failed to get sober
just because he or she did not know good
grammar.

- - - -

Similar remarks also received from:

james ryan <elephant_7@yahoo.com>
(elephant_7 at yahoo.com)
We can say "I have THE scissors," even
though the word is plural.

<stockholmfellowship@gmail.com>
(stockholmfellowship at gmail.com)

<Sober186@aol.com> (Sober186 at aol.com)

John Barton <jax760@yahoo.com>
(jax760 at yahoo.com)

I.e., "amend" is the verb and "amends"
is the noun, even if it is just one amends
that we are making.

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++++Message 5414. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Amend vs. amends, and Grammar
From: Margaretha H . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/17/2008 11:04:00 PM

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v.Â Â aÂ·mendÂ·ed, aÂ·mendÂ·ing, aÂ·mends

v.Â Â tr.

1. To change for the better; improve: amended the earlier proposal so as to
make it more comprehensive.
2. To remove the faults or errors in; correct. See Synonyms at correct.
3. To alter (a legislative measure, for example) formally by adding,
deleting,
or rephrasing.
4. To enrich (soil), especially by mixing in organic matter or sand. v.Â Â
intr.
To better one's conduct; reform.

[Middle English amenden, from Old French amender, from Latin Ä“mendÄre
: Ä“-,
ex-, ex- + mendum, fault.]
aÂ·mend'aÂ·bleadj., aÂ·mend'ern.

amends Usage Examples
Preposition: on
* minute: He made amends on 30 minutes with a carbon copy move.
Noun used with modifier
* clause: This clause amends section 63 of the 1983 Act.
* section: This section amends section 30 of the 1998 Act.
Adjective modifier
* direct: Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when
to
do so would injure them or others.
* full: By this, I was sure his wife had made him full amends for once.
* necessary: To those advertisers whose targets were missed, we will make
the
necessary amends.
* such: If they failed to make such amends, they were not only damned by
society but damned in the next world.
* partial: So I set off to The Shepherds Bush Empire the other day to make
partial amends.
Converse of object
* make: I hope to make amends early in the New Year.
Modifies a noun
* regulation: Regulation 10 amends regulation 44, which defines an eligible
child for the purpose of children's pension rights.
* section: Section 1 of the Act amends section 61 of the 1991 Act.
* paragraph: Paragraph 3 of Schedule 4 amends paragraph 6(2 ) of Schedule 3
of
the DDA 1995.
* rule: Paragraph 13 amends rule 5 of those rules to apply the provisions
about
answers to applications under Schedule 6 to the 2004 Act.
* part: Schedule 1 amends Part I of the 2002 Act to effect this transfer of
functions.
* minute: The re-signing did make amends minutes later, however, when diving
to
deny Edwards.
Preposition: in
* minute: Jensen more than made amends in the 12th minute when a quick
one-two
with Graham Stuart set him free on the left of goal.
Preposition: for
* mistake: Making amends for the mistakes in the last 10 years will mean
hard
work & bridge building.
* defeat: Rotherham were quick out the blocks, looking as if they were eager
to
make amends for defeats in their last two games.
* harm: We also expect the young person to take action to make amends for
the
harm they have caused.
* year: Will Chris be able to make amends for the past years?
amends Quotes
Lord, won't you buy me a Mercedes-Benz, My friends all drive Porsches, I
must
make amends.
Joplin,Janis

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++++Message 5415. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Stadium photos from
International Conventions
From: Chris Budnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/15/2008 7:31:00 PM

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One source is

http://www.faingoldphoto.com/paypalorder.php

Chris B.

- - - -

Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 6:09 PM
Subject: Stadium photos from International Conventions

Does anyone know where I could find photos
from past International AA Conventions? I am
only interested in those huge stadium photos
of the tens of thousands of people attending
the main meetings.

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++++Message 5416. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Bill R
From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/15/2008 8:08:00 PM

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Hi Jared

"AA Comes of Age" (pg 152) states: "Our first
Board consisted of five Trustees. Dick
Richardson, Frank Amos, and Dr. Strong were
the nonalcoholic members, and we chose Dr. Bob
and one of the New York A.A.'s as the
alcoholic contingent. The New York member
soon got drunk, but this possibility had been
foreseen. Drunkenness on the part of an
alcoholic Trustee meant immediate resignation.
Another alcoholic was named in the drunken
brother's place and we proceeded to business.
It was May, 1938."

The date of May 1938 cannot be accurate since
the Alcoholic Foundation wasn't established
until August 5, 1939. An end note in "Not God"
(pg 330 ref 24) states "On AACA p 152 Wilson
dates the actual Foundation as from 'May 1938':
erroneous, and another example of his lack of
memory for dates."

"Pass It On" (pg 188) states: "It was finally
agreed that the trust would be called the
Alcoholic Foundation. Its board of trustees
was formally implemented on August 11, 1938,
with five members, three of whom were
nonalcoholics: Richardson, Amos and John Wood.
The alcoholic members were Dr Bob and Bill R
of the New York area. The trust agreement
stipulated that an alcoholic trustee would
have to resign immediately if he got drunk.
(This actually happened in the case of the
New York member, and he was replaced forthwith)."

The text of Bob P's "unofficial" history of
AA states: "One of the provisions of the
trust agreement stipulated that an alcoholic
trustee would have to resign immediately if
he drank. Unfortunately, this happened within
a few months to Bill R."

I'm in possession of two lists naming the
board Trustees up to 1990. One list is in
alphabetic sequence, the other in chronological
sequence. They were prepared in 1990 by GSO
for incoming Trustees (one of which was a past
Delegate from my Area who had been elected
Trustee-at-large). Both lists indicate that
Bill R served on the board from 8/11/38 to
2/39 when he resigned. He was almost immediately
allowed to serve on the "Advisory Committee"
(with Bill W, Hank P, Morgan R and others)
and continued on the Advisory Committee from
2/39 to 4/42. Both lists state that Bill R
died in 1962 (which appears to be another date
error based on the references stated below).

Both lists show alcoholic Harry B (Big Book
story "A Different Slant) as taking office on
6/39 and resigning in 12/39 (he got drunk as
well). This gave impetus to the practice of
having a nonalcoholic board chair ever since.
(Although that might change sometime in the
future based on a recent Conference advisory
action).

Cheers
Arthur

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jlobdell54
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 4:45 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Bill R

Bill R died sober 9 June 1961 (tape by Kathleen
R in GSO Archives, noted in the newsletter of
the Kirk/CAAS Collections at Brown, CULTURE
ALCOHOL & SOCIETY QUARTERLY, Vol. 3 no. 6),
and I have found no evidence that he drank in
1939, only that he feared drinking and possibly
that he had not been continuously sober since
first coming in.

Harry B., his successor, did drink at a bon
voyage party on one of the Queens, but he
died sober in the early/mid/1960s, with (I
think) more than twenty years sobriety.

Bill and Kathleen's daughter was the first
"AA baby" and btw there was an interesting
Grapevine article by Bill's nephew down in
Huntsville, Alabama a couple of years ago.

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++++Message 5417. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Bill R
From: Laurence Holbrook . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/17/2008 4:57:00 PM

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Check the following artivcle:

May 2006
Vol. 62 No. 12
The Big Book Connection

A message left behind

"I knew through family stories that my uncle,
Bill R., had found AA. I never dreamed that
first contact had come in 1937. The family
stories also implied that one should exercise
caution around that part of the family. Uncle
Bill was hanging out with a strange group of
people, they said, and probably giving up all
the family secrets. As I read his story, "A
Business Man's Recovery," many of the family
tales of his wild adventures throughout Europe
and South America began to make sense. An
entirely different picture of him and my
relationships to the family emerged ....
Andy R.
Huntsville, Alabama"

-----------------------
Larry Holbrook
Email@LaurenceHolbrook.com
(410) 802-3099

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++++Message 5418. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Medical study, emotionally
immature and grandiose
From: John Lee . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/17/2008 3:40:00 PM

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My memory is that the study was done at Yale
in the 1940s, although I'd have to review my
old research to confirm. It doesn't really
matter which doctors developed the study. The
story is a hoot. AA sent the cream of its
membership to these doctors. AA didn't send
the washouts, it sent its rousing successes.
The idea was to look for a common denominator
which would predict success in AA. The study
proved to be the proverbial "pie in the face"
for the Fellowship. It took a big spoonful of
humility and self-deprecation to mention the
Yale study in Twelve and Twelve. What we have
in common is childishness, hypersensitivity
and grandiosity. Thanks, Doc, I feel so much
better.

John Lee
Pittsburgh

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++++Message 5419. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Medical study, emotionally
immature and grandiose
From: James Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/17/2008 4:13:00 PM

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Edgar wrote
In discussion of Step 12 in the Twelve and
Twelve, the text talks on page 123 of a
medical study that found AAs were in general
". . . childish, emotionally immature, and
grandiose . . ."

This is transcribed from a talk given by Bill W.

Some years ago the doctors began to look at
Alcoholics Anonymous and they got about thirty
of us together and they said to themselves
"Well, now that these fellows are in A.A.,
and they won't lie so badly, and maybe for the
first time we'll get a good look at what the
interior of a drunk is like." So a number of
us were examined at great length by psychia-
trists, and all sorts of tests taken, and the
object of this particular inquiry was to see
whether alcoholics as a class differed from
other people, and if they did, just why and
how much.

A number of us were invited to attend the
conclave, and a number of learned papers were
read, and finally one of these physicians (a
very noted one - the meeting took place at the
New York Academy of Medicine) began to sum up
what he thought the conclusion which they had
arrived at was this: that the alcoholic is
emotionally on the childish side. That the
alcoholic is a person who is more sensitive
emotionally than the average person. And
then, they ascribed another quality to us -
they used the word "grandiosity," they were
grandiose (meaning by that that as a type we
were what you might call "All or nothing
people.") Someone once described it by saying
all alcoholics hanker for the moon when perhaps
the stars would have done just as well. As
a class, we're like that, said the doctors.
(Memphis, Tenn., Sept.18-20, 1947)

The paper by Howard W. Haggard, The Physician
and the Problem of Alcoholism
Bull.N.Y. Acad Med 1945 Sept, 21 (9) 451-466

Can be read here:

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1870440&tool=pmcen
trez

Jim

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++++Message 5420. . . . . . . . . . . . Re:Medical study, emotionally
immature and grandiose
From: Doris Ringbloom . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/17/2008 5:08:00 PM

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A book titled Matt Talbot by Morgan Costelloe has

"American authorities on alcoholism hold that
the following psychological traits are commonly
found in alcoholics:

1. A high level of anxiety in interpersonal relations
2. Emotional immaturity
3. Ambivalence towards authority
4. Low frustration tolerance
5. Low self-esteem
6. Perfectionism
7. Guilt
8. Feelings of isolation"

Doesn't give a reference but might be the same
study and give another point to research from

For what it's worth.

Doris

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++++Message 5421. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Bill R
From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/17/2008 6:05:00 PM

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It was in 1939, therefore QM, as you point out.
I believe he got sober by 1941, which, given
his death in (I think Jan) 1966, sober, gives
him "more than twenty years sobriety" --
probably twenty-five -- when he died.

The article (by Andy R., about getting his
uncle's 1939 Big Book, with his name already
in it) was in May, and I believe it was
May 2006 -- but it might have been 2005.

> From: cometkazie1@cox.net
> Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 16:36:24 -0600
> Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Bill R
>
> I assume you are referring the RMS Queen
> Elizabeth and Queen Mary of the Cunard White
> Star Line.
>
> QE saw no service before WW2. QM saw civilian
> service up until the outbreak of WW2 in Europe
> the fall of 1939.
>
> Both were laid up on the U.S. east coast
> until they were converted to troop ships.
> They did not return to civilian service until
> 1947, so Harry B's date of sobriety would
> have to be either pre-1940 or post-1947 and
> make the statement "more than twenty years
> sobriety" an error.
>
> Grapevine articles are now available online,
> although a subscription is required. Could
> you give us some more specific info on the
> article so those of us interested could
> look it up?
>
> Tommy H in Baton Rouge

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++++Message 5422. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Bill R
From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/18/2008 11:51:00 AM

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Hi! Art -- The date in AACOA is wrong and I'm not
sure I trust Bill's memory even for the sequence of events
with Bill R. That he resigned in Feb '39 and was immediately
placed on the Advisory Board is presumably true, but my
belief (and I've listened to Kathleen's tape and to
Thomas Kean B's tape several times) is that the drinking
was earlier, before he was put on the Foundation Board.
I say "presumably true" but note that AACOA says he
was immediately replaced by Harry C. B., while GSO
has a time from 2/39 to 6/39 before the replacement.
And the 12/39 date for Harry's resignation can't be right
if he resigned immediately upon drinking at a bon voyage
party on the QM.

> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
> From: ArtSheehan@msn.com
> Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 19:08:12 -0600
> Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: Bill R
>
> Hi Jared
>
> "AA Comes of Age" (pg 152) states: "Our first
> Board consisted of five Trustees. Dick
> Richardson, Frank Amos, and Dr. Strong were
> the nonalcoholic members, and we chose Dr. Bob
> and one of the New York A.A.'s as the
> alcoholic contingent. The New York member
> soon got drunk, but this possibility had been
> foreseen. Drunkenness on the part of an
> alcoholic Trustee meant immediate resignation.
> Another alcoholic was named in the drunken
> brother's place and we proceeded to business.
> It was May, 1938."
>
> The date of May 1938 cannot be accurate since
> the Alcoholic Foundation wasn't established
> until August 5, 1939. An end note in "Not God"
> (pg 330 ref 24) states "On AACA p 152 Wilson
> dates the actual Foundation as from 'May 1938':
> erroneous, and another example of his lack of
> memory for dates."
>
> "Pass It On" (pg 188) states: "It was finally
> agreed that the trust would be called the
> Alcoholic Foundation. Its board of trustees
> was formally implemented on August 11, 1938,
> with five members, three of whom were
> nonalcoholics: Richardson, Amos and John Wood.
> The alcoholic members were Dr Bob and Bill R
> of the New York area. The trust agreement
> stipulated that an alcoholic trustee would
> have to resign immediately if he got drunk.
> (This actually happened in the case of the
> New York member, and he was replaced forthwith)."
>
> The text of Bob P's "unofficial" history of
> AA states: "One of the provisions of the
> trust agreement stipulated that an alcoholic
> trustee would have to resign immediately if
> he drank. Unfortunately, this happened within
> a few months to Bill R."
>
> I'm in possession of two lists naming the
> board Trustees up to 1990. One list is in
> alphabetic sequence, the other in chronological
> sequence. They were prepared in 1990 by GSO
> for incoming Trustees (one of which was a past
> Delegate from my Area who had been elected
> Trustee-at-large). Both lists indicate that
> Bill R served on the board from 8/11/38 to
> 2/39 when he resigned. He was almost immediately
> allowed to serve on the "Advisory Committee"
> (with Bill W, Hank P, Morgan R and others)
> and continued on the Advisory Committee from
> 2/39 to 4/42. Both lists state that Bill R
> died in 1962 (which appears to be another date
> error based on the references stated below).
>
> Both lists show alcoholic Harry B (Big Book
> story "A Different Slant) as taking office on
> 6/39 and resigning in 12/39 (he got drunk as
> well). This gave impetus to the practice of
> having a nonalcoholic board chair ever since.
> (Although that might change sometime in the
> future based on a recent Conference advisory
> action).
>
> Cheers
> Arthur
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jlobdell54
> Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 4:45 PM
> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Bill R
>
> Bill R died sober 9 June 1961 (tape by Kathleen
> R in GSO Archives, noted in the newsletter of
> the Kirk/CAAS Collections at Brown, CULTURE
> ALCOHOL & SOCIETY QUARTERLY, Vol. 3 no. 6),
> and I have found no evidence that he drank in
> 1939, only that he feared drinking and possibly
> that he had not been continuously sober since
> first coming in.
>
> Harry B., his successor, did drink at a bon
> voyage party on one of the Queens, but he
> died sober in the early/mid/1960s, with (I
> think) more than twenty years sobriety.
>
> Bill and Kathleen's daughter was the first
> "AA baby" and btw there was an interesting
> Grapevine article by Bill's nephew down in
> Huntsville, Alabama a couple of years ago.
>

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++++Message 5423. . . . . . . . . . . . Study, grandiosity, source of
comment
From: edgarc@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/18/2008 5:29:00 AM

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This paper (noted below) was cited, but there
is no mention of grandiosity, or any kind of
study by any group of respected doctors. It is
a terrific piece of work, worth reading and
realizing that some medicos were far ahead of
their time, like Haggard, in understanding what
drives the practicing drunk.

Edgar C, Sarasota, Fla.

- - - -

In a message dated 12/18/2008 10:08:37 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com writes:

The paper by Howard W. Haggard, The Physician
and the Problem of Alcoholism
Bull.N.Y. Acad Med 1945 Sept, 21 (9) 451-466

Can be read here:

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1870440&tool=pmcen
trez

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++++Message 5424. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Medical study, emotionally
immature and grandiose
From: John Lee . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/18/2008 10:36:00 AM

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Howard Haggard was the Yale professor whose
name I was trying to recall. He was the
Director of Yale's Section on Alcohol Studies
in the 1930s and 1940s. While his discipline
was applied physiology, Doctor Haggard had
a long time interest in research in alcohol.
In 1945 Doctor Haggard co-authored with
Yale's E.M. Jellnick Alcohol Explored. While
Haggard's 1945 paper was presented to the
New York Medical Society, the actual studies
of the alcoholics was done on the Yale campus.
Yale University eventually dropped applied
research, and the School of Alcohol Studies
was moved to Rutgers University in 1962.
[I've parked next to the Brinkley Smithers
School of Alcohol Studies while attending
basketball games at Rutgers].

John Lee
Pittsburgh

--- On Wed, 12/17/08, James Blair <jblair@videotron.ca> wrote:

From: James Blair <jblair@videotron.ca>
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Medical study, emotionally immature and
grandiose
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, December 17, 2008, 4:13 PM

Edgar wrote
In discussion of Step 12 in the Twelve and
Twelve, the text talks on page 123 of a
medical study that found AAs were in general
". . . childish, emotionally immature, and
grandiose . . ."

This is transcribed from a talk given by Bill W.

Some years ago the doctors began to look at
Alcoholics Anonymous and they got about thirty
of us together and they said to themselves
"Well, now that these fellows are in A.A.,
and they won't lie so badly, and maybe for the
first time we'll get a good look at what the
interior of a drunk is like." So a number of
us were examined at great length by psychia-
trists, and all sorts of tests taken, and the
object of this particular inquiry was to see
whether alcoholics as a class differed from
other people, and if they did, just why and
how much.

A number of us were invited to attend the
conclave, and a number of learned papers were
read, and finally one of these physicians (a
very noted one - the meeting took place at the
New York Academy of Medicine) began to sum up
what he thought the conclusion which they had
arrived at was this: that the alcoholic is
emotionally on the childish side. That the
alcoholic is a person who is more sensitive
emotionally than the average person. And
then, they ascribed another quality to us -
they used the word "grandiosity, " they were
grandiose (meaning by that that as a type we
were what you might call "All or nothing
people.") Someone once described it by saying
all alcoholics hanker for the moon when perhaps
the stars would have done just as well. As
a class, we're like that, said the doctors.
(Memphis, Tenn., Sept.18-20, 1947)

The paper by Howard W. Haggard, The Physician
and the Problem of Alcoholism
Bull.N.Y. Acad Med 1945 Sept, 21 (9) 451-466

Can be read here:

http://www.pubmedce ntral.nih. gov/articlerende r.fcgi?artid= 1870440&tool=
pmcentrez

Jim

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++++Message 5425. . . . . . . . . . . . Now we are thousands passage
From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/17/2008 9:09:00 PM

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Interestingly enough I have found the source
of the text for "Now We are Thousands" which
was inserted as page 391 in the second printing
of the first edition Big Book. It was taken
from an eighteen page letter Bill wrote to
the trustees in October of 1940. Below are the
first few paragraphs of Bill's letter to the
trustees and the original text which appeared
in the second and third printings on page 391.

Oct 1, 1940

To The Trustees
The Alcoholic Foundation
New York City

Gentlemen;

To facilitate the trustees meeting projected
for the middle of October I think it may prove
helpful to review the work of A.A. from April
1939, when our book "Alcoholics Anonymous"
appeared, down to the present moment. From
such a record, together with running comment
thereon, we may be able to draw some conclus-
ions as tour future requirements and policy.

Let us first consider the growth of the work
by numbers and by new localities to which it
has spread.

(Begin Text)

When the book appeared in April of last year we had approximately one
hundred members. Two-thirds of them were at Akron, Ohio, or nearby
communities in the northern part of that state. Most of the remainder
were in or near New York City and a few others were scattered along the
Atlantic Seaboard. The work had then been in existence over four years.
It had been satisfactorily demonstrated that at least two out of three
alcoholics who wished to get well could apparently do so,
notwithstanding the fact that their chance of recovery upon any other
medical or spiritual basis had been almost nil—perhaps not more than
two percent..

Publication of the book, which set down our experience and technique at
length, brought us into a new and unexplored phase which meant an
attempt to carry the work to other localities, widespread publicity, and
the exposure of our methods to the test of approval or disapproval by
religion, medicine, and the general public-an uncharted field indeed.
Would theologians complain of our lack of orthodoxy? Would physicians
frown upon the idea of banding together swarms of neurotic alcoholics
for mutual aid through a religious common denominator? Would reviewers
and columnists ridicule the religious content of the work, thus
prejudicing the men and women we were trying to help? Would alcoholic
men and women and their families be convinced by the book and the
attendant publicity that here at last was a solution? Such were the
uncertainties of April 1939.

NOW WE ARE THOUSANDS. – p.391

WHEN this book appeared in April 1939 there were approximately 100 A.A.
members. Two thirds of them were at Akron, Ohio, or nearby communities
in the northern part of that state. Most of the remainder were in or
near New York City and a few others were scattered along the Atlantic
Seaboard. The work had then been in existence over four years. It had
been satisfactorily demonstrated that at least two out of three
alcoholics who wished to get well could apparently do so,
notwithstanding the fact that their chance of recovery upon any other
medical or spiritual basis had been almost nil-a small percentage at
best.

Publication of the book, which set down our experience and methods at
length, opened a new and unexplored phase which meant an attempt to
carry the work to other localities, widespread publicity, and the
exposure of our methods to the test of approval or disapproval by
religion, medicine, and the general public-an uncharted field indeed.
Would theologians complain of our lack of orthodoxy? Would physicians
frown upon the idea of banding together great numbers of alcoholics for
mutual aid through a religious common denominator? Would reviewers and
columnists ridicule the religious content of the work, thus prejudicing
the men and women we were trying to help? Would alcoholic men and women
and their families be convinced by the book and the attendant publicity
that here at last was a solution? Such were the uncertainties of April
1939.

(End Text)

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++++Message 5426. . . . . . . . . . . . A group may request that only home
group members vote
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/19/2008 4:47:00 PM

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In Message 2713 (back in October 2005), I
made an incorrect statement, which has just
been drawn to my attention by John Barton
<jax760@yahoo.com> (jax760 at yahoo.com).

I said (referring to the Twelve Concepts) that:

"It is also stated in the concepts that when
an individual AA group is holding a group
conscience session, the only people who are
allowed to speak and vote are those who have
been attending that group regularly for a
considerable period of time, and actively
participating in the group and its activities."

I read that in a notebook or handbook of some
sort, which was kept by the secretary of one
of the intergroups in my part of Indiana, and
mistakenly thought this idea was part of the
Twelve Concepts. In fact the notebook or
handbook contained all sorts of useful
conference material, including not only the
Twelve Concepts, but also many other things.

I started checking through various pieces of
AA conference literature this afternoon,
trying to find what I had actually read, and
discovered that the passages that had caught
my eye came from the conference pamphlet on
"The A.A. Group." This can be read online at:

http://www.aa.org/en_pdfs/p-16_theaagroup.pdf

The conference pamphlet on "The A.A. Group"

pages 13-14

The A.A. Home Group

Traditionally, most A.A. members through the years
have found it important to belong to one group which
they call their "Home Group." This is the group where
they accept service responsibilities and try to sustain
friendships. And although all A.A. members are
usually welcome at all groups and feel at home at any
of these meetings, the concept of the "Home Group"
has still remained the strongest bond between the A.A.
member and the Fellowship.

With membership comes the right to vote upon
issues that might affect the group and might also
affect A.A. as a whole—a process that forms the very
cornerstone of A.A.’s service structure. As with all
group-conscience matters, each A.A. member has one
vote; and this, ideally, is voiced through the
home group.

Over the years, the very essence of A.A. strength
has remained with our home group, which, for many
members, becomes our extended family. Once isolated
by our drinking, we find in the home group a solid,
continuing support system, friends and, very often, a
sponsor. We also learn firsthand, through the group’s
workings, how to place "principles before
personalities" in the interest of carrying the A.A.
message.

Talking about her own group, a member says:
"Part of my commitment is to show up at my homegroup
meetings, greet newcomers at the door, and be
available to them—not only for them but for me. My
fellow group members are the people who know me,
listen to me, and steer me straight when I am off in left
field. They give me their experience, strength and A.A.
love, enabling me to ‘pass it on’ to the alcoholic who
still suffers."

page 28

A.A. Business Meetings

In most groups, the chairperson or another officer
calls the business meeting, which ordinarily is held on
a monthly or quarterly basis.

While some groups may occasionally permit
nonmembers to attend, the group may request that
only home group members participate or vote.

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++++Message 5427. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Medical study, emotionally
immature and grandiose
From: Ron Roizen . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/18/2008 8:08:00 PM

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Hi John,

For one perspective on Haggard and his Yale
group see my "Paradigm Sidetracked" article at

http://www.roizen.com/ron/sidetracked.htm

Best,

Ron Roizen

- - - -

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
John Lee Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2008 7:37 AM
Subject: Re: Medical study, emotionally immature and
grandiose

Howard Haggard was the Yale professor whose
name I was trying to recall. He was the
Director of Yale's Section on Alcohol Studies
in the 1930s and 1940s. While his discipline
was applied physiology, Doctor Haggard had
a long time interest in research in alcohol.
In 1945 Doctor Haggard co-authored with
Yale's E.M. Jellnick Alcohol Explored. While
Haggard's 1945 paper was presented to the
New York Medical Society, the actual studies
of the alcoholics was done on the Yale campus.
Yale University eventually dropped applied
research, and the School of Alcohol Studies
was moved to Rutgers University in 1962.
[I've parked next to the Brinkley Smithers
School of Alcohol Studies while attending
basketball games at Rutgers].

John Lee
Pittsburgh

--- On Wed, 12/17/08, James Blair <jblair@videotron.
mailto:jblair%40videotron.ca> ca> wrote:

Edgar wrote
In discussion of Step 12 in the Twelve and
Twelve, the text talks on page 123 of a
medical study that found AAs were in general
". . . childish, emotionally immature, and
grandiose . . ."

This is transcribed from a talk given by Bill W.

Some years ago the doctors began to look at
Alcoholics Anonymous and they got about thirty
of us together and they said to themselves
"Well, now that these fellows are in A.A.,
and they won't lie so badly, and maybe for the
first time we'll get a good look at what the
interior of a drunk is like." So a number of
us were examined at great length by psychia-
trists, and all sorts of tests taken, and the
object of this particular inquiry was to see
whether alcoholics as a class differed from
other people, and if they did, just why and
how much.

A number of us were invited to attend the
conclave, and a number of learned papers were
read, and finally one of these physicians (a
very noted one - the meeting took place at the
New York Academy of Medicine) began to sum up
what he thought the conclusion which they had
arrived at was this: that the alcoholic is
emotionally on the childish side. That the
alcoholic is a person who is more sensitive
emotionally than the average person. And
then, they ascribed another quality to us -
they used the word "grandiosity, " they were
grandiose (meaning by that that as a type we
were what you might call "All or nothing
people.") Someone once described it by saying
all alcoholics hanker for the moon when perhaps
the stars would have done just as well. As
a class, we're like that, said the doctors.
(Memphis, Tenn., Sept.18-20, 1947)

The paper by Howard W. Haggard, The Physician
and the Problem of Alcoholism
Bull.N.Y. Acad Med 1945 Sept, 21 (9) 451-466

Can be read here:

http://www.pubmedce ntral.nih. gov/articlerende r.fcgi?artid= 1870440&tool=
pmcentrez

Jim

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++++Message 5428. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Thomas H. Uzzell''s later life
From: John Barton . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/15/2008 10:57:00 PM

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Message 2590 from "mertonmm3"
<mertonmm3@yahoo.com> (mertonmm3 at yahoo.com)
says that:

[By January 4, 1939 a pre-multilith copy was
in the hands of Tom Uzzell who edited the
Big Book. An enormous amount of work must
have taken place from this point until publi-
cation in April 1939. Hank is clearly excited
as Bill must have been when he read it.

Source is unpublished manuscript Black Sheep
whose source was transcription of original
from microfilm at GSO.

Brackets [] encompass non-source text]

[letter dated 1/4/1939 Hank P. to Bill W.]

[start]

"I am rushing off to you excerpts from a
letter just received from Mr. Thomas H.
Uzzell, former editor of Collier's Magazine,
writer of several books, contributor to
Collier's, Sat. Evening Post, ect.

"He says 'I spent last evening with the
manuscript, I knew of course, what the
document was but on reading additional
chapters and surveying the job as a whole, I
found myself deeply moved, at times full of
amazement, almost incredulity, and during
most of the reading I was extremely sympa-
thetic. My feeling at the moment is that
you should certainly hold on to the production
and distribution of this volume, if you can
for she ought to go far, wide and handsome,
and net those concerned a neat profit. You
have here an extremely urgent problem, you
have a successful defiance of medicine, you
have a religion story, you have a deeply human
story, and, lastly, you have a whole flock of
happy endings. My God! I don't know what else
you could want for a good book. I believe in
it most emphatically.

"He further says, 'The whole book needs the
final shaping of a professional hand', and
then goes on in considerable length into
mechanical details with which I will not
bother you.

''But it is interesting that he ends his
letter as follows: 'I understand better now
the enthusiasm you revealed in your talks with
me about this work. I thought you were
exagerating somewhat, but now I have joined
the choir invisible.

"If I were you I would be intensely proud of
that opinion."

[stop]

- - - -

From: John Barton <jax760@yahoo.com>
(jax760 at yahoo.com)

He was paid what would be about $4500 in today's
money to edit the book. There is nothing to
indicate he was an alcoholic. The fact that
he had to be paid to edit the book, together
with he nature of his statements in this letter
(Hank Parkhurst to Bill 1939) show he was not
an AA member.

Regards

John

- - - -

From: J. Lobdell <jlobdell54@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Thomas H. Uzzell's later life
To: aahistorylovers@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, December 15, 2008, 10:16 PM

From CULTURE ALCOHOL & SOCIETY QUARTERLY
newsletter of Kirk/CAAS Collections at Brown
(Vol. 3 no. 6):

Notes: Early AA: Thomas Hayes Uzzell.

Thomas Hayes Uzzell (b. Denver Oct 25 1884
d. Los Angeles Nov 11 1975, who m. Camelia
Waite) had two children, one of whom,
Camelia Uzzell Berry, published a book OKLAHOMA
PRAIRIE PLOWED UNDER (Cortez CO: Mesa Verde
Press -- I think around 1998).

Uzzell was the son of Charles S Uzzell, the
"Rocky Mountain Evangelist" (1853-1890), who
d. in CA, and Estella Alexander Uzzell (b.
1861?), who remarried, a man named Frank May
(or Nay?), the same age she was: they had
children Lucile (b. 1893), Lloyd B. (b.
1896?), and John (b. 1899?), and lived in
Calumet IL in 1910, Tom Uzzell living with
them at that point.

(Charles S. Uzzell's older brother, converted
with him in 1871, was also Thomas H. Uzzell.)

Our Thomas H. Uzzell graduated Phi Beta Kappa
from the University of Minnesota, did graduate
work at Harvard and Columbia, was an editor
with the government in DC in 1917, living with
his wife at 4421 15th St, traveled to Europe
on economic investigation in 1919-20 and again
in 1920-21, was later with Collier's in NYC,
then ran a writer's school, the Thomas H.
Uzzell School (actually run, according to Mary
Cheever, who was briefly her secretary, by his
wife).

He wrote a number of books, including NARRATIVE
TECHNIQUE (1923), (ed) SHORT STORY UNITS
(2 vols 1933/34), TECHNIQUE OF THE NOVEL:
A HANDBOOK (1947, 1959), TWILIGHT OF SELF
GOVERNMENT (1961/2), and a novel GRANDEE JIM
(1973).

I ... emailed Clancy I in Long Beach/LA to
see if he knows if Bill W visited Tom Uzzell
at the time of the 1960 Convention [he
doesn't]. What I [also] don't know is whether
there was any particular personal connection
between Bill or any of the other early AAs
and Tom Uzzell, though Jim B¢s history suggests
it was Hank P. who brought Tom into the
equation.

As far as later life is concerned, I haven't
been able to find out much -- Good luck!

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++++Message 5429. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill R
From: John Barton . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/18/2008 9:04:00 PM

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The minutes of the Alcoholic Foundation dated
2/14/39 contain the following in the second
paragraph.

"The resignation of Trustee Ruddell (Class B)
is reluctantly accepted ____ (word is obscured)
he was then elected to the Advisory Committee.
As Trustee Ruddell was chairman of the board,
this left that position vacant. Trustee Harry
Brick was elected Chairman pro-tem.

The "New Jersey Group" group membership survey
conducted on Jan 1, 1940 has the following note
next to Harry Brick's name. "no progress
no longer member".

The "Alpha" file of trustees since the board
inception is accurate when it states Brick
resigned in December 1939. It shows he was
elected 1/18/39, mentions the 2/39 meeting and
then his resignation 12/39 His relapse might
have occurred in the fall of 39. I don't
believe the Board met every month and appears
to have breaks of several months at times
(no regular pattern of meetings) so he could
have relapsed on the QM in the fall and been
ousted at the next meeting following his
relapse.

Regards

John B

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++++Message 5430. . . . . . . . . . . . Now we are thousands passage
From: John Barton . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/18/2008 9:10:00 PM

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Message 2258 from Jim Blair <jblair@videotron.ca>
(jblair at videotron.ca)
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/2258

Gives a list of the changes made in the
First Edition of the Big Book in the first
16 printings:

1st Edition - 4th Printing
- Title states "EIGHT THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."
- Cover changed to green, last 1,500 navy blue.
- Piv-L03, Post Box 657 to Box 658.
- P25-L28, Added foot note "Number of Localities for A.A."
- P27-L01, 100s of Men to 1000s of Men and Women.
- P59-L25, Added foot note "Please See Appendix II."
- P168-L03, 6 years ago to 8 years ago.
- P152-L02, have been there to has been there.
- P152-L22, The bank were doing to was doing.
- P391-L24, Religious content to spiritual.
- P393-L12, 8,000 by 01/43 to 10,000 by 01/44.
- P398-L09, Works Publishing Company to Inc.
- P398-L10, organized to originally organized.
- P398-L10, members to older members
- P398-L11, Added 49 gave up stock.
- P398-L16, this book, to this book.
- P398-L16, send money to please send money.

- - - -

The word "religious" was actually changed to
"spiritual" TWICE, not just once, on page 391.

- - - -

The text for "Now We are Thousands" was
inserted as page 391 in the second printing
of the first edition Big Book:

"WHEN this book appeared in April 1939
there were approximately 100 A.A. members.
Two thirds of them were at Akron, Ohio, or
nearby communities in the northern part of
that state. Most of the remainder were in
or near New York City and a few others were
scattered along the Atlantic Seaboard. The
work had then been in existence over four
years. It had been satisfactorily demonstrated
that at least two out of three alcoholics who
wished to get well could apparently do so,
notwithstanding the fact that their chance of
recovery upon any other medical or spiritual
basis had been almost nil - a small percentage
at best."

"Publication of the book, which set down our
experience and methods at length, opened a
new and unexplored phase which meant an
attempt to carry the work to other localities,
widespread publicity, and the exposure of our
methods to the test of approval or disapproval
by religion, medicine, and the general public
- an uncharted field indeed. Would theologians
complain of our lack of orthodoxy? Would
physicians frown upon the idea of banding
together great numbers of alcoholics for
mutual aid through a religious common
denominator? Would reviewers and columnists
ridicule the religious content of the work,
thus prejudicing the men and women we were
trying to help? Would alcoholic men and women
and their families be convinced by the book
and the attendant publicity that here at last
was a solution? Such were the uncertainties
of April 1939."

- - - -

That was the wording used in the second and
third printings of the First Edition. The
word "religious" was then changed to
"spiritual" TWICE in the second paragraph
of that passage in the fourth printing:

3rd Printing

"Would physicians frown upon the idea of banding
together great numbers of alcoholics for mutual
aid through a >>religious<< common denominator?"

"Would reviewers and columnists ridicule the
>>religious<< content of the work, thus
prejudicing the men and women we were trying
to help?"

4th Printing

"Would physicians frown upon the idea of banding
together great numbers of alcoholics for mutual
aid through a >>spiritual<< common denominator?"

"Would reviewers and columnists ridicule the
>>spiritual<< content of the work, thus
prejudicing the men and women we were trying
to help?"

God Bless

John B

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++++Message 5431. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Mac
From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/18/2008 9:48:00 PM

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I have been able to confirm that "Mac" PIO 227-228 and Ruth Hocks
Letter to Bill in 1955 "Recollections" is Ernest Mackenzie, New
Jersey Group Member from March of 1939. This the same Ernest M listed
on page 162 of PIO. The several "Pioneer" lists on the internet
showing Ernest M - 1935 - Failed to gain long term sobriety are in
fact incorrect (as previously stated). Ernest apparently did stay
sober (after the 1940 slip) and moved from the South Orange Group in
1941 to being one of the founding members of the Bergen County Group
(along with Tom Powers)on July 29, 1941.

In the 1st Big Book sold, which was autographed by all the founding
members, there is a notation next to Ernest Mackenzies name that
says "Mac".

Does anyone know who owns this original autographed book?

I have deciphered the names for numbers 25 and 32 (left blank in the
book notations as ?) as well as the name for the crossed out (13).

Best Regards

John B

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, John Barton <jax760@...>
wrote:
>
> In message 5286, I said that "Herb was a
> slipper who had been around since 1935 (see
> Pass it On p.162)."
>
> - - - -
>
> My mistake! I have found this to be incorrect.
> Herb D came in according to a survey of the
> New Jersey Group conducted on Jan 1, 1940
> (Document in Jersey Archives) earlier in 39.
> Survey said he had 9 months. I suspect this
> is also wrong unfortunately as I have found
> other errors on this survey i.e. lists Hank P
> as having "5 years", unlikely since that
> would pre-date Dr Bob.
>
> For example many of the "Pioneer Lists" on
> the internet ( see below) are in error. Under
> 1935 they show Bill R. Pass it On says "Bill
> and his wife non-alcoholic Kathleen.... "This
> is Bill Ruddell who came in Feb 1937. Documents
> in the New Jersey Archives confirm Bill Ruddell
> and his wife Kathleen in letters from Ruth
> Hock. Herb D and Earnest M are both listed in
> the 1940 survey as having 9 months. Although
> as I said I do question this. These guys
> attended the meetings at Clinton Street but
> not in 35 as indicated on these Pioneer Lists.
> I have a strong suspicion (but unconfirmed)
> at this point that Earnest M is "Mac".
> Earnest's last name is MacKenzie. Recall
> Mac was found drunk in Bill's office when
> A LeRoy Chipman from the Rockefeller founda-
> tion visited on Vesey Street.Circa 1939/40.
>
> I am trying to chase this down, but we should
> not read anything into Pass it On page 162 to
> indicate that the people who attended the
> Tuesday meetings at 182 Clinton Street were
> all attending in 1935. The meetings on Tuesday
> went from Fall of 1935 until April of 1939.
> Pass it On says Lois remembers so and so etc,
> could have been that many names mentioned
> attended in later years, as is definitely the
> case with Bill R. I must admit that I too
> originally read that page in Pass it On with
> tunnel vision.
>
> I hope more will be revealed.
>
> God Bless
>
> John B
>
> - - - -
>
> Pioneers of Alcoholics Anonymous – 1934 – 1939
>
> All Below Achieved At Least Some Period of Sobriety.
> Some who failed may have achieved permanent sobriety later.
> Bolded Names Achieved Permanent Sobriety.

>
>
> 1934
>
> Name
>
> Location
>
> Comment/Big Book Story
>
>
> Dec 11
>
> Bill Wilson
>
> New York
>
> Co-Founder of AA – Bill's Story
>
>
> 1935
>
>
>
> Jun 10
>
> Dr.Bob Smith
>
> Akron
>
> Co-Founder of AA – Dr. Bob's Nightmare
>
>
> June
>
> Eddie Reilly
>
> Akron
>
> Sobered in 1949
>
>
> June
>
> Dr. McK.
>
> Akron
>
> Failed to gain long term sobriety
>
>
> June
>
> Bill Dotson
>
> Akron
>
> Alcoholics Anonymous No.3 – 2nd Ed
>
>
> July
>
> Ernie Gailbraith
>
> Akron
>
> The Seven Month Slip – (An In-and-Outer Slipper)
>
>
> Aug
>
> Wes Wyman
>
> Akron
>
> Sobered in 1949
>
>
> Sept
>
> Hank Parkhurst
>
> New York
>
> The Unbeliever – 4 yrs. Sober
> Drunk Sept 1939
>
>
> Sept
>
> Phil Smith
>
> Akron
>
>
>
> Oct
>
> John Henry "Fitz" Mayo
>
> New York
>
> Our Southern Friend
>
>
> 1935
>
> Freddie B.
>
> New York
>
> Failed to gain long term sobriety
>
>
> 1935
>
> Brooke B.
>
> New York
>
> Failed to gain long term sobriety
>
>
> 1935
>
> Bill R. ERROR
>
> New York
>
> Failed to gain long term sobriety
>
>
> 1935
>
> Ernest M. ERROR
>
> New York
>
> Failed to gain long term sobriety
>
>
> 1935
>
> Herb D. ERROR
>
> New York
>
> Failed to gain long term sobriety
>
>
> 1935
>
> Alec
>
> New York
>
> Failed to gain long term sobriety
>
>
> 1935
>
> Russ R.
>
> New York
>
> Failed to gain long term sobriety
>
>
> 1935
>
> Bill C.
>
> New York
>
> Failed to gain long term sobriety
>
>
> 1935
>
> Victor (Akron)
>
> New York
>
> Failed to gain long term sobriety
>
>
> 1935
>
> Lil (Akron)
>
> New York
>
> Failed to gain long term sobriety
>

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++++Message 5432. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Now we are thousands passage
From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/18/2008 9:49:00 PM

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At 20:09 12/17/2008, jax760 wrote:

>Interestingly enough I have found the source
>of the text for "Now We are Thousands" which
>was inserted as page 391 in the second printing
>of the first edition Big Book. It was taken
>from an eighteen page letter Bill wrote to
>the trustees in October of 1940. Below are the
>first few paragraphs of Bill's letter to the
>trustees and the original text which appeared
>in the second and third printings on page 391.

[snip]

>
>NOW WE ARE THOUSANDS. ­ p.391
>
>WHEN this book appeared in April 1939 there were approximately 100 A.A.
>members. Two thirds of them were at Akron, Ohio, or nearby communities
>in the northern part of that state. Most of the remainder were in or
>near New York City and a few others were scattered along the Atlantic
>Seaboard. The work had then been in existence over four years. It had
>been satisfactorily demonstrated that at least two out of three
>alcoholics who wished to get well could apparently do so,
>notwithstanding the fact that their chance of recovery upon any other
>medical or spiritual basis had been almost nil-a small percentage at
>best.
>
>Publication of the book, which set down our experience and methods at
>length, opened a new and unexplored phase which meant an attempt to
>carry the work to other localities, widespread publicity, and the
>exposure of our methods to the test of approval or disapproval by
>religion, medicine, and the general public-an uncharted field indeed.
>Would theologians complain of our lack of orthodoxy? Would physicians
>frown upon the idea of banding together great numbers of alcoholics for
>mutual aid through a religious common denominator? Would reviewers and
>columnists ridicule the religious content of the work, thus prejudicing
>the men and women we were trying to help? Would alcoholic men and women
>and their families be convinced by the book and the attendant publicity
>that here at last was a solution? Such were the uncertainties of April
>1939.
>
>(End Text)
>

I would note that the the word "religious" in the
third and fourth sentences was changed to
"spiritual" in the Fourth and subsequent
printings. This change is noted in A.A.H.L. message #2258.

Tommy H

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++++Message 5433. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Medical study, emotionally
immature and grandiose
From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/19/2008 7:38:00 AM

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--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Doris Ringbloom" <dringbloom@...>
wrote:
>
> A book titled Matt Talbot by Morgan Costelloe has
>
> "American authorities on alcoholism hold that
> the following psychological traits are commonly
> found in alcoholics:
>
> 1. A high level of anxiety in interpersonal relations
> 2. Emotional immaturity
> 3. Ambivalence towards authority
> 4. Low frustration tolerance
> 5. Low self-esteem
> 6. Perfectionism
> 7. Guilt
> 8. Feelings of isolation"
>
> Doesn't give a reference but might be the same
> study and give another point to research from
>
> For what it's worth.
>
> Doris
>
- - - -

The list you give here is almost word-for-word
identical with one in Howard Clinebell's
<Understanding and Counseling the Alcoholic>
p 53 of the revised edition of 1968 (the
original edition appeared in 1956), the only
difference being that Clinebell included
grandiosity and compulsiveness for a total
of 10. Clinebell presented the list as his own
summary of contemporary writings on the subject,
although it did not necessarily represent
Clinebell's own view. Maybe Costelloe meant
to put in a footnote.

I agree with Edgar that Haggard seems like an
unlikely source. Certainly Jellinek was not a
major proponent of the theory that alcoholism
was caused by underlying personality disorders,
and wasn't Haggard working with Jellinek?

My vote (as to a source, that is) goes to a
study, which I admit I have not read, which
appeared in the December 1943 issue of Quarterly
Journal of Studies on Alcohol. According to
Clinebell, "Charles C. Hewitt summarizes his
findings in "A Personality Study of Alcohol
Addiction," as follows: "Alcohol addiction,
in the group studied in this survey, seems to
be associated, with but few exceptions, with
deep personality disorders. Even those
exceptions are doubtless more apparent than
real." (Clinebell p 57)

Cora

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++++Message 5434. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: Amend vs. amends, and
Grammar
From: wil antheunis . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/18/2008 10:56:00 AM

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My Oxford English Dictionary, second edition
(The second edition is in 20 volumes and 3
volume additions series) says:

1 amend, v.

2 amend, ppl. a.

3 amend, n.

for amend, n. the entry is âsee amends.â

For amends the definition is quite lengthy,
about 4 pages long but without quotations:

â 1. The moneys paid, or things given to
make reparation for any injury or offence,
= L. pÅ“nÃ¦; a fine. Obs.

â b. in sing. Obs. rare.

2. Reparation, retribution, restitution,
compensation, satisfaction. esp. in phr. to
make amends. a. pl. in form, collect. in sense.

b. pl. in form, distinctly sing. in use.
(Cf. a means.)

â c. sing. (See also amende.) Obs. rare.

â 3. Means of obtaining satisfaction, or
of amending; remedy. Obs. rare.

â 4. Improvement, betterment, amendment. Obs.

â b. Improvement in health, recovery. Obs.

5. Comb. amends-making.

(The Oxford English Dictionary is the inter-
nationally recognized authority on the
evolution of the English language from 1150
to the present day. The dictionary defines
over 500,000 words and traces their usage
through 2.5 million illustrative quotations
from a wide range of literary and other
sources. It is an unsurpassed guide to the
meaning, pronunciation, and history of the
English language.)

- - - -

From the moderator:

So if I understand this properly, the OED
(Oxford English Dictionary), which is the
great authority on the history of English
usage since the Norman Conquest, did find
places where amend was used (without an s
on the end) as a singular noun, but refers
to this usage as both rare and obsolete.

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++++Message 5435. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Amend vs. amends, and Grammar
From: wil antheunis . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/19/2008 11:43:00 PM

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The most recent quotation for the singular
given by OED is dated in the late sixteen
hundreds.

- - - -

In the original message

[From: wil antheunis
Subject: Re: Amend vs. amends, and Grammar]

the moderator commented:

So if I understand this properly, the OED
(Oxford English Dictionary), which is the
great authority on the history of English
usage since the Norman Conquest, did find
places where amend was used (without an s
on the end) as a singular noun, but refers
to this usage as both rare and obsolete.

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++++Message 5436. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Medical study, emotionally
immature and grandiose
From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/20/2008 11:45:00 AM

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Another name that very strongly advocated
the alcoholic as "emotionally immature and
grandiose" was Dr Harry Tiebout.

His papers were reputedly published in the
early 1950s but his premise was likely
established well before then.

Cheers
Arthur

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ron Roizen
Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2008 7:09 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Medical study, emotionally immature and
grandiose

Hi John,

For one perspective on Haggard and his Yale
group see my "Paradigm Sidetracked" article at

http://www.roizen.com/ron/sidetracked.htm

Best,

Ron Roizen

- - - -

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
John Lee Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2008 7:37 AM
Subject: Re: Medical study, emotionally immature and
grandiose

Howard Haggard was the Yale professor whose
name I was trying to recall. He was the
Director of Yale's Section on Alcohol Studies
in the 1930s and 1940s. While his discipline
was applied physiology, Doctor Haggard had
a long time interest in research in alcohol.
In 1945 Doctor Haggard co-authored with
Yale's E.M. Jellnick Alcohol Explored. While
Haggard's 1945 paper was presented to the
New York Medical Society, the actual studies
of the alcoholics was done on the Yale campus.
Yale University eventually dropped applied
research, and the School of Alcohol Studies
was moved to Rutgers University in 1962.
[I've parked next to the Brinkley Smithers
School of Alcohol Studies while attending
basketball games at Rutgers].

John Lee
Pittsburgh

--- On Wed, 12/17/08, James Blair <jblair@videotron.
mailto:jblair%40videotron.ca> ca> wrote:

Edgar wrote
In discussion of Step 12 in the Twelve and
Twelve, the text talks on page 123 of a
medical study that found AAs were in general
". . . childish, emotionally immature, and
grandiose . . ."

This is transcribed from a talk given by Bill W.

Some years ago the doctors began to look at
Alcoholics Anonymous and they got about thirty
of us together and they said to themselves
"Well, now that these fellows are in A.A.,
and they won't lie so badly, and maybe for the
first time we'll get a good look at what the
interior of a drunk is like." So a number of
us were examined at great length by psychia-
trists, and all sorts of tests taken, and the
object of this particular inquiry was to see
whether alcoholics as a class differed from
other people, and if they did, just why and
how much.

A number of us were invited to attend the
conclave, and a number of learned papers were
read, and finally one of these physicians (a
very noted one - the meeting took place at the
New York Academy of Medicine) began to sum up
what he thought the conclusion which they had
arrived at was this: that the alcoholic is
emotionally on the childish side. That the
alcoholic is a person who is more sensitive
emotionally than the average person. And
then, they ascribed another quality to us -
they used the word "grandiosity, " they were
grandiose (meaning by that that as a type we
were what you might call "All or nothing
people.") Someone once described it by saying
all alcoholics hanker for the moon when perhaps
the stars would have done just as well. As
a class, we're like that, said the doctors.
(Memphis, Tenn., Sept.18-20, 1947)

The paper by Howard W. Haggard, The Physician
and the Problem of Alcoholism
Bull.N.Y. Acad Med 1945 Sept, 21 (9) 451-466

Can be read here:

http://www.pubmedce ntral.nih. gov/articlerende r.fcgi?artid= 1870440&tool=
pmcentrez

Jim

------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

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++++Message 5437. . . . . . . . . . . . Online AA meetings
From: Charlie Gallie . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/14/2008 4:09:00 PM

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When was the first online AA meeting where
people used webcams to see one another?

When was the first online Alcothon?

(We are getting ready now to do an online
webcam Alcothon at http://www.SoberFolk.org )

Charlie Gallie
charliegallie@comcast.net
(charliegallie at comcast.net)
http://www.SoberFolk.org

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++++Message 5438. . . . . . . . . . . . The doctor in paragraph 3 of The
Family Afterward
From: stuboymooreman81 . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/15/2008 8:05:00 AM

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At the beginning of Chapter 9, "The Family
Afterward," in paragraph 3 on page 122, it says:

"A doctor said to us, 'Years of living with
an alcoholic is almost sure to make any wife
or child neurotic. The entire family is, to
some extent, ill.'"

I was wondering if any of you had any
information on this doctor.

Thanks a lot,

Stuart

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++++Message 5439. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Mac
From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/19/2008 9:55:00 PM

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The original is in the GSO Archives, having
been presented by Virginia M. (I think when
she moved to the West Coast). I have made
guesses at 13 and 32, but have no idea what
the name is in signature 25, tho' the last
part looks like a "jr" -- is there any way of
finding out (the signatures are available
on the web on silkworth.net)? Please help me
out here if you can.

- - - -

ONE CAN SEE THE ORIGINAL SIGNATURES ON THE
silkworth.net site in an online document called
Signatures Found in First Big Book April 1939

Go to the Silkworth site at http://silkworth.net/

Click on "History" at the top, which takes you to
http://silkworth.net/aahistory/historyaa.html

Go to "Research & Study" in the middle of the
left hand column, which takes you to
http://silkworth.net/aahistory/research.html

The fourth item down is "Signatures in the first
Big Book," which takes you to
http://silkworth.net/aahistory/Signatures_found_in_1st_Big_Book_04_1939.doc

- - - -

> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
> From: jax760@yahoo.com
> Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 02:48:12 +0000
> Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Mac
>
> I have been able to confirm that "Mac" PIO 227-228 and Ruth Hocks
> Letter to Bill in 1955 "Recollections" is Ernest Mackenzie, New
> Jersey Group Member from March of 1939. This the same Ernest M listed
> on page 162 of PIO. The several "Pioneer" lists on the internet
> showing Ernest M - 1935 - Failed to gain long term sobriety are in
> fact incorrect (as previously stated). Ernest apparently did stay
> sober (after the 1940 slip) and moved from the South Orange Group in
> 1941 to being one of the founding members of the Bergen County Group
> (along with Tom Powers)on July 29, 1941.
>
> In the 1st Big Book sold, which was autographed by all the founding
> members, there is a notation next to Ernest Mackenzies name that
> says "Mac".
>
> Does anyone know who owns this original autographed book?
>
> I have deciphered the names for numbers 25 and 32 (left blank in the
> book notations as ?) as well as the name for the crossed out (13).
>
> Best Regards
>
> John B
>
> --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, John Barton <jax760@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > In message 5286, I said that "Herb was a
> > slipper who had been around since 1935 (see
> > Pass it On p.162)."
> >
> > - - - -
> >
> > My mistake! I have found this to be incorrect.
> > Herb D came in according to a survey of the
> > New Jersey Group conducted on Jan 1, 1940
> > (Document in Jersey Archives) earlier in 39.
> > Survey said he had 9 months. I suspect this
> > is also wrong unfortunately as I have found
> > other errors on this survey i.e. lists Hank P
> > as having "5 years", unlikely since that
> > would pre-date Dr Bob.
> >
> > For example many of the "Pioneer Lists" on
> > the internet ( see below) are in error. Under
> > 1935 they show Bill R. Pass it On says "Bill
> > and his wife non-alcoholic Kathleen.... "This
> > is Bill Ruddell who came in Feb 1937. Documents
> > in the New Jersey Archives confirm Bill Ruddell
> > and his wife Kathleen in letters from Ruth
> > Hock. Herb D and Earnest M are both listed in
> > the 1940 survey as having 9 months. Although
> > as I said I do question this. These guys
> > attended the meetings at Clinton Street but
> > not in 35 as indicated on these Pioneer Lists.
> > I have a strong suspicion (but unconfirmed)
> > at this point that Earnest M is "Mac".
> > Earnest's last name is MacKenzie. Recall
> > Mac was found drunk in Bill's office when
> > A LeRoy Chipman from the Rockefeller founda-
> > tion visited on Vesey Street.Circa 1939/40.
> >
> > I am trying to chase this down, but we should
> > not read anything into Pass it On page 162 to
> > indicate that the people who attended the
> > Tuesday meetings at 182 Clinton Street were
> > all attending in 1935. The meetings on Tuesday
> > went from Fall of 1935 until April of 1939.
> > Pass it On says Lois remembers so and so etc,
> > could have been that many names mentioned
> > attended in later years, as is definitely the
> > case with Bill R. I must admit that I too
> > originally read that page in Pass it On with
> > tunnel vision.
> >
> > I hope more will be revealed.
> >
> > God Bless
> >
> > John B
> >
> > - - - -
> >
> > Pioneers of Alcoholics Anonymous – 1934 – 1939
> >
> > All Below Achieved At Least Some Period of Sobriety.
> > Some who failed may have achieved permanent sobriety later.
> > Bolded Names Achieved Permanent Sobriety.
> >
> >
> > 1934
> >
> > Name
> >
> > Location
> >
> > Comment/Big Book Story
> >
> >
> > Dec 11
> >
> > Bill Wilson
> >
> > New York
> >
> > Co-Founder of AA – Bill's Story
> >
> >
> > 1935
> >
> >
> >
> > Jun 10
> >
> > Dr.Bob Smith
> >
> > Akron
> >
> > Co-Founder of AA – Dr. Bob's Nightmare
> >
> >
> > June
> >
> > Eddie Reilly
> >
> > Akron
> >
> > Sobered in 1949
> >
> >
> > June
> >
> > Dr. McK.
> >
> > Akron
> >
> > Failed to gain long term sobriety
> >
> >
> > June
> >
> > Bill Dotson
> >
> > Akron
> >
> > Alcoholics Anonymous No.3 – 2nd Ed
> >
> >
> > July
> >
> > Ernie Gailbraith
> >
> > Akron
> >
> > The Seven Month Slip – (An In-and-Outer Slipper)
> >
> >
> > Aug
> >
> > Wes Wyman
> >
> > Akron
> >
> > Sobered in 1949
> >
> >
> > Sept
> >
> > Hank Parkhurst
> >
> > New York
> >
> > The Unbeliever – 4 yrs. Sober
> > Drunk Sept 1939
> >
> >
> > Sept
> >
> > Phil Smith
> >
> > Akron
> >
> >
> >
> > Oct
> >
> > John Henry "Fitz" Mayo
> >
> > New York
> >
> > Our Southern Friend
> >
> >
> > 1935
> >
> > Freddie B.
> >
> > New York
> >
> > Failed to gain long term sobriety
> >
> >
> > 1935
> >
> > Brooke B.
> >
> > New York
> >
> > Failed to gain long term sobriety
> >
> >
> > 1935
> >
> > Bill R. ERROR
> >
> > New York
> >
> > Failed to gain long term sobriety
> >
> >
> > 1935
> >
> > Ernest M. ERROR
> >
> > New York
> >
> > Failed to gain long term sobriety
> >
> >
> > 1935
> >
> > Herb D. ERROR
> >
> > New York
> >
> > Failed to gain long term sobriety
> >
> >
> > 1935
> >
> > Alec
> >
> > New York
> >
> > Failed to gain long term sobriety
> >
> >
> > 1935
> >
> > Russ R.
> >
> > New York
> >
> > Failed to gain long term sobriety
> >
> >
> > 1935
> >
> > Bill C.
> >
> > New York
> >
> > Failed to gain long term sobriety
> >
> >
> > 1935
> >
> > Victor (Akron)
> >
> > New York
> >
> > Failed to gain long term sobriety
> >
> >
> > 1935
> >
> > Lil (Akron)
> >
> > New York
> >
> > Failed to gain long term sobriety
> >

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++++Message 5440. . . . . . . . . . . . The Doctor''s Opinion
From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/24/2008 6:16:00 AM

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"Though the aggregate of recoveries resulting
from psychiatric effort is considerable, we
physicians must admit we have made little
impression on the problem [of alcoholism] as
a whole."

(William D. Silkworth in the Big Book in "The
Doctor's Opinion," page xxix, fourth edition).

Was that just the doctor's opinion, an
anecdotal generalisation, or based on what
had been a recent survey? Did the authorities
record such data in the 1930s?

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++++Message 5441. . . . . . . . . . . . Christmas greetings from Bill W. in
1944
From: DudleyDobinson@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/24/2008 3:22:00 PM

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The following is a Christmas greeting from
Bill W. and others in 1944.

- - - -

TO ALL MEMBERS

Greetings On Our 10th Christmas

1944

Yes, it's in the air! The spirit of Christmas
once more warms this poor distraught world.
Over the whole globe millions are looking
forward to that one day when strife can be
forgotten, when it will be remembered that
all human beings, even the least are loved by
God, when men will hope for the coming of the
Prince of Peace as they never hoped before.
But there is another world which is not poor.
Neither is it distraught.

It is the world of Alcoholics Anonymous, where
thousands dwell happily and secure. Secure
because each of us, in his own way, knows a
greater power who is love, who is just, and
who can be trusted. Nor can men and women of
AA ever forget that only through suffering did
they find enough humility to enter the portals
of that New World. How privileged we are to
understand so well the divine paradox that
strength rises from weakness, that humiliation
goes before resurrection; that pain is not only
the price but the very touchstone of spiritual
rebirth. Knowing its full worth and purpose,
we can no longer fear adversity, we have found
prosperity where there was poverty, peace and
joy have sprung out of the very midst of chaos.
Great indeed, our blessings!

And so,-- Merry Christmas to you all-- from
the Trustees, from Bobbie and from Lois and me.

Bill Wilson

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++++Message 5442. . . . . . . . . . . . Joe B. at the end of Robert
Thomsen''s bio of Bill W.
From: Michael F. Margetis . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/26/2008 3:58:00 PM

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Hi all,

At the end of Robert Thomsen's biography of
Bill W. (pg 369-371) is a very moving story
about an AA named "Joe B.," who rather than
going to Bill's memorial service (as presumably
every other AA in NYC was doing), chose to
stay and open up a regularly scheduled Sunday
afternoon AA meeting in Greenwich Village.

It was a 2:00 pm meeting and by 2:30 pm still
no one had showed up and he was just about to
lock up and go when a newcomer showed up. He
invites him and offers him a cup of coffee and
that's the end of the book.

I realize this may be a bit much to ask even
for AAHL, but does anyone know anything about
"Joe B." and this newcomer?

Thanks,

Mike Margetis
Brunswick, Maryland

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++++Message 5443. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr. Tiebout Question
From: Michael F. Margetis . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/26/2008 3:55:00 PM

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Hi all,

In Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age in the
appendix E:b "Therapeutic Mechanisim of
Alcoholics Anonymous" by Dr. Tiebout it's
obvious that "Mr. X" is Bill and the first
patient at Blythewood is Marty, but I'm not
so sure about the other patient:

Page 313, "He is a man in his early forties.
From a family of wealth...."

Was this Grennie?

Thanks,

Mike Margetis
Brunswick, Maryland

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++++Message 5444. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Photographs of Richard Peabody
or Courtenay Baylor?
From: diazeztone . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/23/2008 11:31:00 PM

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hello Joe T,

I also would like to find photos you mentioned.
No replies from anyone??

I am also curious as to the spelling -- is it
Courtenay Baylor or Courtney Baylor?

LD Pierce
editor aabibliography.com

- - - -

Message 4312 (May 9, 2007) from Joseph Trevaskis
easydorset@yahoo.com (easydorset at yahoo.com)
>
> Hello all,
>
> I have been doing research with some others
> on obtaining photographs of people who were
> involved in pre-AA.
>
> Does anyone have a copy of a photo of Richard
> Peabody, Courtenay Baylor or anyone related?
>
> How can people obtain copies?
>
> Thanks ever,
>
> In Love & service,
>
> Joe T
>

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++++Message 5445. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: A group may request that only
home group members vote
From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/20/2008 6:42:00 AM

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I've just flicked through the Grapevine
compilation, "The Home Group; heartbeat of AA".
There's not much information on membership
rules and procedures, which, since AA as such
ought never be organised, and as each group is
autonomous, is perhaps unsurprising.

THE EARLY LITTLE ROCK MEMBERSHIP RULES

An article from September 1947 headed "Little
Rock plan gives prospects closest attention"
describes that group's rigorous membership
rules.

It records, "It is not easy to become
a member of this group. When a person has
expressed a desire to achieve sobriety and
has a sponsor appointed for him, he must
leave his work or position for two weeks.
Usually the prospect is required to spend
the entire time within the confines of the
club rooms, studying, preparing a case
history, meeting and filling assignments laid
out by the sponsor.

If, after two weeks, he has discharged his
assignments to the satisfaction of his
sponsor, he is brought before the executive
committee and here his request for membership
is presented by his sponsor in his presence.

In some instances ... he may not be admitted
for varying periods as high as six months...
However, if he is deemed eligible by the
committee, he is brought before the next
meeting, receives a warm welcome, is handed
a copy of the 'Approach Program' (sic) and
the 12 Steps.

This not all, however ... we give him a diary
and ask that each day for 28 days he record
his impressions and enter therein, 'I have
not taken a drink this day,' and sign his
name.

At the end of this period he returns the
diary, is again welcomed and is admitted to
full membership, the privilege of the ballot
and an unrestricted part in the activities
of the Fellowship..."

http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/122465942/direct/01/

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++++Message 5446. . . . . . . . . . . . Signatures on Big Book: Howard M.
Wilson
From: LES COLE . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/21/2008 2:10:00 PM

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Hi Jared:

I opened Silkworth.net as you suggested and
then the piece on "signatures."

Therein I saw a couple details which I now
mention.

1. I saw that Virginia added a note beside
signature number 66, Howard M. Wilson.
Her note said: "(Bill's brother)"
How did she come to believe that Bill had
a brother? As we know, he only had a sister,
Dorothy. His uncle was Clarence, who is
buried beside Bill in East Dorset.

2. I had, for years written Ebby's last name
with a "t". I don't know why it was but it
seemed OK. Then, recently, I found a picture
of Ebby's grave stone and learned how it
actually was spelled without the "t". That
was my answer.

In this new piece, "signatures" I see that
Ebby signed his own name without a "t,"
YET when Virginia MacLeod wrote he commentaries
on the same book pages, she wrote Thatcher
WITH a "t." Isn't it interesting that the
oft-repeated error got started that far back,
and when she saw Ebby's signature in the same
book, she established an early precedent?

Les
Colorado Springs, CO

- - - -

Message #5439 from "J. Lobdell"
<jlobdell54@hotmail.com>
(jlobdell54 at hotmail.com)

The 1st Big Book sold was autographed by all
the founding members. One can see the original
signatures on the silkworth.net site in an
online document called "Signatures Found in
First Big Book April 1939."

Go to the Silkworth site at http://silkworth.net/

Click on "History" at the top, which takes you to
http://silkworth.net/aahistory/historyaa.html

Go to "Research & Study" in the middle of the
left hand column, which takes you to
http://silkworth.net/aahistory/research.html

The fourth item down is "Signatures in the first
Big Book," which takes you to

http://silkworth.net/aahistory/Signatures_found_in_1st_Big_Book_04_1939.doc

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++++Message 5447. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: home group members: early Little
Rock AA
From: John Schram . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/28/2008 5:33:00 PM

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In respect to Little Rock AA Group a lot of
this can be read in "You Can Stop Drinking" by
Harold Morrow. The late Earl H from Oklahoma
told me about this book. It was dedicated to
the Little Rock Group of AA. Circa 1950.

Someone has a copy for sale now on Ebay.

John Schram

- - - -

From the moderator: a copy is also available
at Abebooks:

http://www.abebooks.com/

Harold Morrow Sherman, "You can stop drinking,"
(Frederick, Maryland: Creative Age Press, Wonder
Book, n.d.).

- - - -

----- Original Message -----
From: jenny andrews
To: aahistorylovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 3:42 AM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: A group may request that only home group
members vote

I've just flicked through the Grapevine
compilation, "The Home Group; heartbeat of AA".
There's not much information on membership
rules and procedures, which, since AA as such
ought never be organised, and as each group is
autonomous, is perhaps unsurprising.

THE EARLY LITTLE ROCK MEMBERSHIP RULES

An article from September 1947 headed "Little
Rock plan gives prospects closest attention"
describes that group's rigorous membership
rules.

It records, "It is not easy to become
a member of this group. When a person has
expressed a desire to achieve sobriety and
has a sponsor appointed for him, he must
leave his work or position for two weeks.
Usually the prospect is required to spend
the entire time within the confines of the
club rooms, studying, preparing a case
history, meeting and filling assignments laid
out by the sponsor.

If, after two weeks, he has discharged his
assignments to the satisfaction of his
sponsor, he is brought before the executive
committee and here his request for membership
is presented by his sponsor in his presence.

In some instances ... he may not be admitted
for varying periods as high as six months...
However, if he is deemed eligible by the
committee, he is brought before the next
meeting, receives a warm welcome, is handed
a copy of the 'Approach Program' (sic) and
the 12 Steps.

This not all, however ... we give him a diary
and ask that each day for 28 days he record
his impressions and enter therein, 'I have
not taken a drink this day,' and sign his
name.

At the end of this period he returns the
diary, is again welcomed and is admitted to
full membership, the privilege of the ballot
and an unrestricted part in the activities
of the Fellowship..."

http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/122465942/direct/01/

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++++Message 5448. . . . . . . . . . . . Henry Ford remark on page 124 of the
Big Book
From: stuboymooreman81 . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/29/2008 9:23:00 AM

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Hi history lovers, hope everyone is well and
had a lovely xmas. I was wondering if you
know when Henry Ford made the "wise remark"
on p. 124 of the Big Book and if you knew
who he was talking to.

Stuart, Barking Big Book Study

Thanks

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++++Message 5449. . . . . . . . . . . . Skeletons in the closet
From: stuboymooreman81 . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/29/2008 9:29:00 AM

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Hello everyone, Stuart from the Barking Big
Book Study.

I was curious as to why on p. 125 in the Big Book,
in the chapter on "The Family Afterward," it
says we keep FEW skeletons as opposed to NO
skeletons in the closet.

I would be truly grateful if anyone knew why.

Thanks a lot, take care, Stuart.

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++++Message 5450. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill Wilson against the use of
vulgar lanquage
From: hjfree2001 . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/29/2008 12:59:00 PM

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I have seen a letter or comment attributed
to Bill Wilson regarding abusive and vulgar
lanquage not being appropriate at meetings.

Clues where to look?

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++++Message 5451. . . . . . . . . . . . Group membership
From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/29/2008 4:46:00 AM

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Then of course there's Bill W's observation
in his Grapevine article (August 1946): "Around
1943 or 1944, the central Office asked the
groups to list their membership rules and send
them in. After they arrived we set them all
down. A little reflection upon these many rules
brought us to an astonishing conclusion. If
all these edicts had been in force everywhere
at once it would have been practically
impossible for any alcoholic to have ever
joined AA. About nine-tenths of our oldest and
best members could never have got by!"

(Reprinted in "As Bill Sees It, page 41.)

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++++Message 5452. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Photographs of Richard Peabody
or Courtenay Baylor?
From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/28/2008 7:03:00 PM

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I have contacted just about every archives,
library, university, etc. in the New York
City and Boston area for photos of Peabody
and Baylor with no luck. I even tried Brown
University, Library of Congress and several
folks from Rhode Island, Vermont and elsewhere.

I've been looking for these for several years
trying to put together a PowerPoint utilizing
photos and sound bites of early members and
friends of AA.

Please keep me in the look as to what is
found. Thanks.


1: http://www.traditionalmusic.co.uk/folk-songs-with-chords/Take%20A%20Whiff%20On%20Me.htm
2: http://www.hboarchives.com/apps/searchlibrary/ctl/gotoclipdetails?key=TQ49312111_015&amp;flash=6
3: http://www.hboarchives.com/apps/searchlibrary/ctl/gotoclipdetails?key=TQ49312111_025&amp;flash=6
4: http://www.hboarchives.com/apps/searchlibrary/ctl/gotoclipdetails?key=TQ49312111_016&amp;flash=6
5: http://www.hboarchives.com/apps/searchlibrary/ctl/gotoclipdetails?key=TQ49312111_017&amp;flash=6
6: http://www.hboarchives.com/apps/searchlibrary/ctl/gotoclipdetails?key=TQ49312111_026&amp;flash=6
7: http://silkworth.net/pdfhistory/What-We-Were-Like-Fragments-of-AA-History-Jun-1990.pdf
8: http://silkworth.net/pdfhistory/What-We-Were-Like-The-North-Hollywood-Group-May-1997.pdf
9: http://www.fathermartinsashley.com/interior.php?section=News&amp;subsection=FatherMartinUpdate
10: http://www.use.salvationarmy.org/use/www_use_neo.nsf/ce952dea4507ee7780256cf4005d2254/36a9553c9ae1b69280256e3900674c2b?OpenDocument
11: http://www.justloveaudio.com/resources/Assorted/Big_Book_Name_and_Date_References.pdf
12: http://www.justloveaudio.com/resources/Assorted/Big_Book_Name_and_Date_Reference
13: http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/sports/stories/2008/05/06/columbus_bb_1950.ART_ART_05-06-08_C1_LVA4ED9.html?sid=101
14: http://www.sfgate.com/flat/archive/2007/09/07/chronicle/archive/2007/09/07/BA99S1AKQ.html
15: http://dhfs.wisconsin.gov/substabuse/Education/Teleconference/ArchivedMaterials/2002presentations/AATALK021202.pdf.
16: http://books.google.com/books?id=6-jWpCYBTR0C&amp;pg=PA269&amp;lpg=PA269&amp;dq=%22when+you+leave+here+let+it+stay+here22+Manhattan+Project&amp;source=web&amp;ots=W-XQWIytdv&amp;sig=zFnqFv2joIPddBGcwRVcTXJpvqI&amp;hl=en
17: http://www.justloveaudio.com/resources/12_Steps_Recovery/Pre-Step_Work/Set-Aside_Prayer.pdf
18: http://justloveaudio.com/resources/Assorted/Big_Book_Name_and_Date_References.pdf
19: http://www3.uakron.edu/schlcomm/womenshistory/seiberling_h.htm.
20: http://www.art.com/asp/sp-asp/_/pd--10391683/Chartres_Street_New_Orleans_Louisiana.htm
21: http://picasaweb.google.com/nwweinberg/TheQuarterHouseResortNewOrleansFrenchQuarter/photo#5221590602611018002
22: http://olpa.od.nih.gov/legislation/110/pendinglegislation/redesignation_institute.asp
23: http://www.righthealth.com/Health/High_Blood_Pressure/-od-definition_adam_1_0004681-s
24: http://www.righthealth.com/Health/Blurred_Vision/-od-definition_adam_1_0030291-s
25: http://stepstudy.org/2008/09/23/foreword-to-philip-leons-philosophy-of-courage-by-glenn-f-chesnut/
26: http://www.abebooks.com/books/alcoholic-authors.shtml?cm_mmc=nl-_-nl-_-AR-09-08-_-booze
27: http://www.news-press.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080827/NEWS0116/808270408/1001/archives
28: http://www.brown.edu/Facilities/University_Library/publications/Bibliofile/Biblio26/Chester.html
29: http://www.popmatters.com/pm/review/franklin-evans-or-the-inebriate-by-walt-whitman-ed-christopher-castiglia-an
30: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&amp;field-keywords=Walt+Whitman+-+%22Inebriate%22&amp;x=11&amp;y=16
31: http://www.baumanrarebooks.com/rare-books/alcoholics-anonymous/twelve-steps-and-twelve-traditions/70545.aspx
32: http://www.filmcritic.com/misc/emporium.nsf/reviews/The-21-Best-Movie-Alcoholics-of-All-Time





AA History Lovers 2008 — moderators Nancy Olson and Glenn F. Chesnut — page 1