AA History Lovers 2009 Messages 5453-6184 moderated by Nancy Olson September 18, 1929 – March 25, 2005 Glenn F. Chesnut June 28, 1939 – IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5453. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Signatures on Big Book: Howard M. Wilson From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/28/2008 6:36:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Howard M. Wilson was Bill's cousin. - - - - > Hi Jared: > > I saw that Virginia added a note beside > signature number 66, Howard M. Wilson. > Her note said: "(Bill's brother)" > How did she come to believe that Bill had > a brother? As we know, he only had a sister, > Dorothy. His uncle was Clarence, who is > buried beside Bill in East Dorset. > > Les > Colorado Springs, CO IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5454. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Signatures on Big Book: Howard M. Wilson & John Carney From: Matt Dingle . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/28/2008 9:32:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII HOWARD WILSON: Howard Wilson was Bill Wilson's cousin who lived at Stepping Stones for a while. Bill spent time helping him sober up. (I think Bill's effort eventually came to naught.) JOHN CARNEY (JACK CARNEY) -- Art Carney's brother Also, I noticed John Carney's name on the opposite page from Howard. John (or Jack) Carney was Art Carney's brother and wrote the "Take me out to Bellevue" song featured in the 1993 version of Gresham's Law and Alcoholics Anonymous: I¢ve been staying away from the meetings, I¢ve been staying away from the crowd. A pint and three nembies, then call the hack, Here's one wack that is flat on his back. Take me out to Bellevue, so I can remember my name, I must be nuts to think I could cheat on the AA game. For whatever it is worth. Thanks Matt D. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5455. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr. Tiebout Question From: Sally Brown . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/29/2008 11:13:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi, Mike and everybody - Marty may have been Tiebout's first alcoholic patient at Blythewood, but we don't know that. He was already interested in alcoholism when he met Marty at Bellevue, so probably had had other such patients. Marty certainly was not Blythewood's first alcoholic patient. Grennie Curtis, Nona Wyman, and a couple of other alcoholic women were already Blythewood patients when Marty arrived. (See Chs 12-13 and p 131 of A Biography of Mrs Marty Mann for info about Grennie). Happy New Year! Sally Rev Sally Brown Board Certified Chaplain United Church of Christ Coauthor with David R Brown: A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann: The First Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous http://www.sallyanddavidbrown.com 1470 Sand Hill Rd, 309 Palo Alto, California 94304 Phone/Fax: 650-325-5258 Email: rev.sally@att.net (rev.sally at att.net) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5456. . . . . . . . . . . . Just For Today made to stop emails by AA World Services From: DudleyDobinson@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/31/2008 6:14:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Dudley Dobinson, a recovered member of AA in Ireland: http://www.aahistory.com/ has a notice that their Just For Today emails have had to be stopped. As they announce it on their webpage: http://www.aahistory.com/jft.html Dear "Just For Today!" members, As of December 31, 2008 we find ourselves at the end of an unplanned transition. Our last email has been sent, dear readers, until we can find some suitable material to pass on to you that can be emailed around the globe without restrictions. It's been sheer joy being of service to you for these last 4,850 days. (One at a time.) - - - - An explanation is given in an email they have sent around to various people: "AA World Services has asked us to cease and desist sending AA materials outside the US, in violation of international copyright agreements. It’s virtually impossible to police who is in the US and who isn’t, so we’re ceasing publication rather than risk legal action by AAWS." "Our last posting comes from the first edition of the book, Alcoholics Anonymous, printed in 1939 by Works Publishing Company, pages 178-179 (currently page 164 in the 4th edition of the same title)." "Our book is meant to be suggestive only. We realize we know only a little. God will constantly disclose more to you and to us. Ask Him in your morning meditation what you can do each day for the man who is still sick. The answers will come, if your own house is in order. But obviously you cannot transmit something you haven't got. See to it that your relationship with Him is right, and great events will come to pass for you and countless others. This is the Great Fact for us." "Abandon yourself to God as you understand God. Admit your faults to Him and to your fellows. Clear away the wreckage of your past. Give freely of what you find and join us. We shall be with you in the Fellowship of the Spirit, and you will surely meet some of us as you trudge the Road of Happy Destiny." "May God bless you and keep you - until then." Sincerely, Bob M., Scott B., Terry H., Carl J., Bob B., Jenny M., Doug B., Barbara P., Ken P., Roger B., Bill B., Seth P., Luke J., and the late Herb K. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ FROM THE MODERATOR: We have posted this because the long series of attempts by AA World Services in New York City to keep alcoholics in many other parts of the world from reading material from the first edition of the Big Book (even though it is no longer under copyright in the U.S.) unless it has been printed by AAWS or reproduced under direct license from them, is a part of AA history. You can go back through our past messages and read full historical accounts of all of the earlier disputes over this and similar issues involving AAWS. But please remember one of the cardinal guidelines set up by our group's founder, Nancy Olson: "This is not an AA chat group," by which she meant that we had to stick with questions about the historical facts, and could not get involved in disputes over matters of opinion and interpretation. So no matter how strongly you feel on either side of this issue -- whether you regard the people at AAWS as the Children of Darkness or the Children of Light -- please do not send messages to the AAHistoryLovers simply swearing at AAWS or defending them as the true angels of righteousness and probity. On the other hand, if there are major factual errors in what the messages from Just For Today and its supporters have reported, or other historical facts that have been omitted from the story, those are fair game for the aa-HISTORY-lovers. I know that lots of people feel VERY strongly on this issue, but please, to preserve the basic character of the AAHistoryLovers as a venue to check on the basic historical facts of AA history in a reasonably calm and objective format, send these comments to some other better suited AA web group. Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5457. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Henry Ford remark on page 124 of the Big Book From: Russ Stewart . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/29/2008 10:16:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The quote from THE FAMILY AFTERWARD, pg. 124: "Henry Ford once made a wise remark to the effect that experience is the thing of supreme value is life. That is true only if one is willing to turn the past to good account. We grow by our willingness to face and rectify errors and convert them into assets. The alcoholic's past thus becomes the principal asset of the family and frequently it is almost the only one!" I believe the quote the Big Book authors were referring to was: "Life is a series of experiences, each one of which makes us bigger, even though sometimes it is hard to realize this. For the world was built to develop character, and we must learn that the setbacks and grieves which we endure help us in our marching onward." But I do not know when he said it or who he was saying it to. However, I did find this on Wikipedia: In 1923, Ford's pastor, and head of the Ford Sociology Department, the Episcopal minister Samuel S. Marquis, claimed that Ford believed, or "once believed" in reincarnation. Though it is unclear whether or how long Ford kept such a belief, the San Francisco Examiner from August 26, 1928, published a quote which described Ford's beliefs: - - - - I adopted the theory of Reincarnation when I was twenty six. Religion offered nothing to the point. Even work could not give me complete satisfaction. Work is futile if we cannot utilise the experience we collect in one life in the next. When I discovered Reincarnation it was as if I had found a universal plan I realised that there was a chance to work out my ideas. Time was no longer limited. I was no longer a slave to the hands of the clock. Genius is experience. Some seem to think that it is a gift or talent, but it is the fruit of long experience in many lives. Some are older souls than others, and so they know more. The discovery of Reincarnation put my mind at ease. If you preserve a record of this conversation, write it so that it puts men's minds at ease. I would like to communicate to others the calmness that the long view of life gives to us. - - - - My new question now is, did Bill W. believe in reincarnation?? ______________________________ From the moderator: For more on Rev. Marquis and the so-called "Ford Sociology Department," see: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1132/is_n10_v39/ai_6323610/pg_4 The Ford Motor Company's experiment in what is sometimes referred to as "welfare capitalism" was gradually undermined by increasing competition from other Detroit manufacturers, by growing labor unrest, and by an economy that after the First World War showed signs of becoming more and more unstable. During the First World War, the Ford Sociological Department became the base of operations within the Ford Motor Company for the national spy network associated with the American Protective League (APL). This was a patriotic "citizen's group" which had as its object the discovery of IWW and socialist opponents of the war effort, and the enforcement of the Espionage and Sedition Acts of the federal government. Ford Sociological Department investigators working for the APL examined the files on the home lives of Ford workers for evidence of disloyalty, and used these as a basis for coercing or firing "wrong elements." In the depression of 1920-21 that came after the war the Ford Motor Co. was especially hard hit. Total sales of vehicles dropped from 998,029 in 1919 to 530,780 in 1920. In the drastic reorganization that followed, which included massive layoffs and an enormous speed-up on the production line, the strategy of the Ford Motor Co. turned from one of "welfare capitalism" to more ruthless forms of exploitation. Explaining the general atmosphere at this time, one Ford executive stated, "We were driving them, of course. We were driving them in those days. . . . Ford was one of the worst shops for driving the men." As part of this reorganization, the Sociological Department was disbanded in 1921. Yet, its more repressive function, associated with what Leo Huberman was to call "the labor spy racket," was retained and given a new home in the notorious Service Department, which became the headquarters for Ford's struggles against unions throughout the 1920s and 1930s. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5458. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill Wilson against the use of vulgar lanquage From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/29/2008 8:58:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Message #430 of this group submitted by its founder, Nancy Olson, July 20, 2002 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/430 gives Bill Wilson's Guidelines for stories in the 2d edition of the Big Book: "Since the audience for the book [Big Book] is likely to be newcomers, anything from the point of view of content or style that might offend or alienate those who are not familiar with the program should be carefully elim- inated . . . Profanity, even when mild, rarely contributes as much as it detracts. It should be avoided." Tommy H in Baton Rouge - - - - Message 5450 from (hjfree at fuse.net) asked: >I have seen a letter or comment attributed >to Bill Wilson regarding abusive and vulgar >lanquage not being appropriate at meetings. > >Clues where to look? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5459. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill Wilson against the use of vulgar lanquage From: John Lee . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/30/2008 10:39:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The comment on bad language is found in a standard form letter sent to Groups by GSO since the 1950s or 1960s. I think the letter is still being used. It basically says that "Groups that encourage the practice of the 12 Steps find that their members grow in all areas. That is our experience. Thank you very much." Groups have been trying for decades to get New York GSO to act as a super-referee for Group disputes. GSO won't be lured into that duty, mindful that the Groups are autonomous. The latest form of the form letter doesn't mention Bill W., but the original might have been signed by Bill. Some of the Intergroups with extensive archives would have the original version of the letter, and its inception date. john lee pittsburgh IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5460. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Skeletons in the closet From: James Flynn . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/30/2008 8:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Interesting wording, could it be that the "few skeletons" phrase was deliberately chosen because in some instances we are advised to make an indirect rather than direct amends? That is what I took from it. Sincerely, Jim F. - - - - Step 9. "Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, EXCEPT WHEN TO DO SO WOULD INJURE THEM OR OTHERS." - - - - On Mon, 12/29/08, stuboymooreman81 wrote: I was curious as to why on p. 125 in the Big Book, in the chapter on "The Family Afterward," it says we keep FEW skeletons as opposed to NO skeletons in the closet. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5461. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Signatures on Big Book: Howard M. Wilson and John Carney From: Bob Schultz . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/1/2009 6:18:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII John (Jack) Carney was a dentist and I saw him at an IDAA gathering in Morristown, New Jersey back in the 70's ....Very entertaining fellow. bob (bsdds) (for whatever that is worth category also) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5462. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Photographs of Richard Peabody or Courtenay Baylor? From: aalogsdon@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/31/2008 5:58:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The AMERICAN magazine for September 1931 has on page 22, a picture of Richard Peabody that will reproduce into a nice larger picture. I have a copy of this magazine, will copy if you need. Email me at: (aalogsdon at aol.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5463. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: A group may request that only home group members vote From: James Flynn . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/30/2008 8:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Tradition Three: Long Form “Our membership ought to in- clude all who suffer from alco- holism. Hence we may refuse none who wish to recover. Nor ought A.A. membership ever depend upon money or confor- mity. Any two or three alcohol- ics gathered together for sobri- ety may call themselves an A.A. group, provided that, as a group, they have no other af- filiation.” The Third Tradition is a sweeping state- ment indeed; it takes in a lot of terri- tory. Some people might think it too idealistic to be practical. It tells every alcoholic in the world that he may be- come, and remain, a member of Alco- holics Anonymous so long as he says so. In short, Alcoholics Anonymous has no membership rule . . . . If he is anything, the sick alcoholic is a rebellious nonconformist . . . . If we raise obstacles, he might stay away and perish. He might be denied his price- less opportunity. So when he asks, “Are there any con- ditions?” we joyfully reply, “No, not a one.” . . . . Our membership Tradition does contain, however, one vitally important qualification. That qualification re- lates to the use of our name, Alcohol- ics Anonymous. We believe that any two or three alcoholics gathered to- gether for sobriety may call them- selves an AA group provided that, as a group, they have no other affiliation. Here our purpose is clear and un- equivocal. For obvious reasons we wish the name Alcoholics Anonymous to be used only in connection with straight AA activities. One can think of no AA member who would like, for example, to be designated by reli- gious denominations. We cannot lend the AA name, even indirectly, to other activities, however worthy. If we do so we shall become hopelessly compromised and divided. Reprinted from The Language of the Heart © 1988 The AA Grapevine, Inc. Bill W. on the Third Tradition February, 1948 - - - - From Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana): On the other side, see Message 5426, which appeared two weeks ago, and qualifies Tradition Three by distinguishing between (a) calling myself an AA member and (b) being given voting rights in a particular AA group's business meeting. (a) I can choose any AA group I want as my "home group" according to Tradition Three, but (b) I can have only one such home group at a time. http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/5426 refers to the conference pamphlet on "The A.A. Group," which can be read online at: http://www.aa.org/en_pdfs/p-16_theaagroup.pdf The conference pamphlet on "The A.A. Group" says that each AA member gets one and only one vote, which is ideally done within that member's home group, and that a "group may request that only home group members participate or vote" in their business meetings. pages 13-14 The A.A. Home Group Traditionally, most A.A. members through the years have found it important to belong to one group which they call their "Home Group." This is the group where they accept service responsibilities and try to sustain friendships. And although all A.A. members are usually welcome at all groups and feel at home at any of these meetings, the concept of the "Home Group" has still remained the strongest bond between the A.A. member and the Fellowship. With membership comes the right to vote upon issues that might affect the group and might also affect A.A. as a whole—a process that forms the very cornerstone of A.A.’s service structure. As with all group-conscience matters, each A.A. member has one vote; and this, ideally, is voiced through the home group. Over the years, the very essence of A.A. strength has remained with our home group, which, for many members, becomes our extended family. Once isolated by our drinking, we find in the home group a solid, continuing support system, friends and, very often, a sponsor. We also learn firsthand, through the group’s workings, how to place "principles before personalities" in the interest of carrying the A.A. message. Talking about her own group, a member says: "Part of my commitment is to show up at my homegroup meetings, greet newcomers at the door, and be available to them—not only for them but for me. My fellow group members are the people who know me, listen to me, and steer me straight when I am off in left field. They give me their experience, strength and A.A. love, enabling me to ‘pass it on’ to the alcoholic who still suffers." page 28 A.A. Business Meetings In most groups, the chairperson or another officer calls the business meeting, which ordinarily is held on a monthly or quarterly basis. While some groups may occasionally permit nonmembers to attend, the group may request that only home group members participate or vote. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5464. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: prayer request for Ray G. From: Russ Stewart . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/29/2008 10:25:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Has anyone heard how The Ardmore Archivist is doing? I have been blessed to have spent time with Ray as my own personal tour guide on more than 2 occasions in Akron. He also came with me to Chagrin Falls, Ohio where my father is buried and stood by me and supported me as I made a very tearful graveside amends. May God bless him and my prayers are with him and his wife Ginny. Two of the greatest AA blessings I have ever met... One of my more favorite moments with Ray were at Dr. Bob's grave. As he lowered himself to his knees next to the headstone, with tears streaming down his cheeks, Ray said, "I know were not supposed to have heroes in AA, but Dr. Bob was mine. He was a true man of Christ." _____ Mitchell K. Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 10:42 PM To: AA History Lovers; Mel Barger; Glenn Chesnut; Matt Dingle; Ernest Kurtz; Bill Lash; Jared Lobdell; Shakey Mike G.; Al Welch Just got an e-mail message that Ray G. is going in for surgery tomorrow (Wednesday) in Florida. Please keep Ray in your thoughts and prayers for a speedy recovery if that be God's will. Mitchell IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5465. . . . . . . . . . . . Douglas D. previously unkown pioneer of AA? From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/31/2008 12:21:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Douglas D. (1895 – 1969) Douglas joined the growing band of recovering drunks at the beginning of 1937. The survey of the New Jersey Group of A.A. taken on January 1, 1940 lists Douglas as having been a member for three years. The survey also indicates that he has had several slips but is making some progress. It is likely that Douglas would have been included when Bill and Dr. Bob counted up the first forty sober in the fall of 1937. Interestingly enough we can trace Douglas's early path and find several instances where it might have crossed with Bill Wilson's. Douglas, like Bill attended the officer's training camp in Plattsburg, New York in 1917. Like Bill he was an officer (Captain) in an artillery unit in WWI. Douglas was assigned to the 305th Field Artillery and was wounded in France. During the time that Douglas was in A.A. he was living in Plainfield, New Jersey and is listed as an active member of the New Jersey Group. Douglas would have been a part of the original group that was attending Oxford Group meetings and the weekly gatherings on Clinton Street that included Hank Parkhurst, John (Fitzhugh) Mayo, Myron Williams, William Ruddell, Florence Rankin and Paul Kellogg. Douglas D. is signature # 32 in the 1st Big Book ever sold, signed by all the early pioneers, and now housed in the archives at the General Service Office in New York. Not much more is known about Douglas at the present. He apparently had a successful career as a securities analyst (another common point with Bill). Douglas' career was with Merrill Lynch. His success here may or may not be indicitive of long-term sobriety. Douglas died November 14, 1969 and the following obituary appeared in the New York Times on November 15, 1969. ______________________________ Princeton, N.J., Nov. 14 – Douglas D...., a retired securities analyst f or Merrill Lynch, Pierce, Fenner & Smith, died in Princeton Hospital today of a heart attack. He was 74 years old and lived at 62 Battle Road here. Mr. D.... was graduated from Princeton Uni- versity in 1917 and served as a captain of artillery in World War I. He joined Merrill Lynch in 1941 and retired in 1960; He leaves his wife, the former Eleanor M.; a son, Douglas Jr., a stepson, Allan F., and Mrs. Blaikie W., and seven grandchildren. ______________________________ John B. The Big Book Study Group of South Orange, New Jersey IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5466. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Just For Today made to stop emails by AA World Services From: Gary Becktell . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/2/2009 3:51:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The original mail from JFT on this issue went out on November 30, 2008. It is copied in its entirety below. Their attempts to satisfy the AAWS requirements were not enough so they sent out their final mail (posted on AAHL by Dudley D) on 12/30/08. -- G - - - - Sunday November 30, 2008 Subject: Changes to JFT! email service. The "Just For Today!" daily email service has been available five days each week since September 1995. To date, volunteers have sent out over 31 million emails to subscribers like you located all over the world. Unexpectedly, we were given notice on Wednesday by AA World Services, Inc. that we must stop using AAWS-copyrighted material, effective today. Therefore, we will change the format of the daily emails in the following ways: Three days a week you'll receive excerpts from the first 164 pages of the first edition big book now in the public domain. Two days a week you will receive an item of AA related history or trivia that we think you will find interesting. Although we would prefer not to lose the oppor- tunity to be of maximum service to any of our current subscribers, if you find that this new format is not useful in your program of recov- ery, you can opt out following the instructions at the bottom of this email or any of the daily messages. If you agree that this new trial format sounds interesting and potentially helpful, you need do nothing but sit back and enjoy the service that has been provided, uninterrupted, for the last 691 weeks. Thank you for letting us be of service to you ... and, as always, JFT! remains absolutely 100% free of charge and without advertising. Yours in Fellowship, "Just for Today" volunteers Bob B, Bob M, Carl J, Jenny MM, Scott B, Terry H, and Doug B. *********************************************** The AAHISTORY.COM webpage is at: http://www.aahistory.com/ http://www.aahistory.com/jft.html c/o Doug B. (Riverside, California) *********************************************** Original Message from: DudleyDobinson@aol.com To: undisclosed-recipients: Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 4:14 PM Subject: Just For Today made to stop emails by AA World Services From Dudley Dobinson, a recovered member of AA in Ireland: http://www.aahistory.com/ has a notice that their Just For Today emails have had to be stopped. As they announce it on their webpage: http://www.aahistory.com/jft.html Dear "Just For Today!" members, As of December 31, 2008 we find ourselves at the end of an unplanned transition. Our last email has been sent, dear readers, until we can find some suitable material to pass on to you that can be emailed around the globe without restrictions. It's been sheer joy being of service to you for these last 4,850 days. (One at a time.) - - - - An explanation is given in an email they have sent around to various people: "AA World Services has asked us to cease and desist sending AA materials outside the US, in violation of international copyright agreements. It?s virtually impossible to police who is in the US and who isn?t, so we?re ceasing publication rather than risk legal action by AAWS." "Our last posting comes from the first edition of the book, Alcoholics Anonymous, printed in 1939 by Works Publishing Company, pages 178-179 (currently page 164 in the 4th edition of the same title)." "Our book is meant to be suggestive only. We realize we know only a little. God will constantly disclose more to you and to us. Ask Him in your morning meditation what you can do each day for the man who is still sick. The answers will come, if your own house is in order. But obviously you cannot transmit something you haven't got. See to it that your relationship with Him is right, and great events will come to pass for you and countless others. This is the Great Fact for us." "Abandon yourself to God as you understand God. Admit your faults to Him and to your fellows. Clear away the wreckage of your past. Give freely of what you find and join us. We shall be with you in the Fellowship of the Spirit, and you will surely meet some of us as you trudge the Road of Happy Destiny." "May God bless you and keep you - until then." Sincerely, Bob M., Scott B., Terry H., Carl J., Bob B., Jenny M., Doug B., Barbara P., Ken P., Roger B., Bill B., Seth P., Luke J., and the late Herb K. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5467. . . . . . . . . . . . Interviewing oldtimers From: stevec012000 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/3/2009 9:00:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Greetings all, Any suggested formats or methods for inter- viewing oldtimers in your area? Just want to see if anyone has expanded upon what is already circulated by AAWS. New Archivist IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5468. . . . . . . . . . . . Hank P bio From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/5/2009 2:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From "John Barton" (jax760 at yahoo.com) Henry G. Parkhurst "The Unbeliever" (1895 – 1954) Henry Giffen Parkhurst was born March 13, 1895 in Marion, Iowa. He is considered to be A.A. #2 in the New York contingent of Alcoholics Anonymous and was Bill's first "sponsee." Henry (Hank) was from Teaneck, New Jersey and could be considered to be the fifth* member of A.A. New Jersey A.A can trace its roots to Hank. Hank had once been the Assistant General Sales Manager for Standard Oil of New Jersey and had been fired for his drinking. Bill found him in September of 1935 in Towns Hospital and offered him the solution that had worked for him, Doctor Bob and Bill Dotson. Hank, who had been treated numerous times previously at Towns and was an avowed atheist, reluctantly accepted the "spiritual" solution. His story, "The Unbeliever" was published in the 1st edition of the Big Book, Alcoholics Anonymous. Hank is first mentioned in "The Doctor's Opinion" on page xxix of the Big Book. Dr. Silkworth describes his case in detail: "He has lost everything worthwhile in life and was only living, one might say, to drink. He frankly admitted and believed that for him there was no hope. Following the elimination of alcohol, there was found to be no permanent brain injury. He accepted the plan outlined in this book. One year later he called to see me, and I experienced a very strange sensation. I knew the man by name, and partly recognized his features, but there all resemblance ended. From a trembling, despairing, nervous wreck, had emerged a man brimming over with self- reliance and contentment. I talked with him for some time, but was notable to bring myself to feel that I had known him before. To me he was a stranger, and so he left me. A long time has passed with no return to alcohol." Hank is again mentioned in the chapter "A Vision for You" on page 163 as the ". . . A.A. member living in a large community." This refers to Hank's home on N. Fullerton Street in Upper Montclair where he was living in 1939 when the big book was first published. Hank has been described as a red haired, tall, broad-shouldered former athlete with a salesman's drive and enthusiasm. Hank was a hard-driving promoter who was once described as "having an idea a minute." He and his wife Kathleen had two sons, Henry and Robert (Hank Jr., and Bob.) Hank and his wife Kathleen began attending the meetings on Tuesday nights that Bill and Lois held at their Brooklyn home at 182 Clinton Street. These meetings which began in the fall of 1935 would continue until April of 1939. Hank also attended Oxford Group meetings with Bill and another New York recruit named John Fitzhugh Mayo. One A.A. story has Hank in early recovery one night with Bill and Fitz driving down Park Avenue in Hank's convertible. Hank suddenly stood straight up, grasping the steering wheel in both hands, with the wind beating against him, yelling, "God! God almighty, booze was never this good." Hank had an office at 9-11 Hill Street in Newark, which later moved to 17 William Street. The office was "the headquarters for a rapidly failing business," according to Bill. The business was Honor Dealers, which Hank had conceived, according to one source, as a way of getting back at Standard Oil; the company that had fired him for his drinking. His business plan was to provide selected gasoline stations with the opportunity to buy gasoline, oil, and automobile parts on a cooperative basis. Bill Wilson was hired to be a salesman for the company and was later joined by Jimmy Burwell; another pioneer of A.A. Ruth Hock was hired as the secretary of Honor Dealers and would later become the A.A. Foundation's first national secretary. Ruth remembered very little gasoline business being conducted there. A lot of people dropped in to discuss their drinking problems, and on more than one occasion she observed Bill and Hank kneeling in prayer by the side of Hank's desk with one of these visitors, an Oxford Group custom when seeking God's guidance. It was here in the offices of Honor Dealers that the book Alcoholics Anonymous was to be written. In 1937, on February 13th the "Alcoholic Squadron" of the New York Oxford Group held a meeting in New Jersey at Hank Parkhurst's Teaneck home on Wyndham Road. It was the first time the group of drunks met in New Jersey to conduct an "alcoholic style" Oxford Group meeting. The purpose of this meeting was to introduce William Ruddell (A Business Man's Recovery) of Hackettstown to the fledgling fellowship. March of 1938 marked the beginning of the writing of the Big Book at Hank's office. The project needed funding so Hank wrote up a prospectus for "The 100 Men Corporation." They offered 600 shares for sale at $25 par value. Hank went down to a stationary store, bought blank stock certificates, typed in his full name, followed by the title "President." The name of the publishing company was "Works Publishing Co.," but the corporation was not registered until several years later. Hank and Bill were each to keep 200 shares for their work on the book, the balance of the 200 shares would be sold for $25 per share. This would raise the $5,000 needed to publish the book. Although Bill was the primary author of the book, Hank is credited with "writing" Chapter 10, To Employers. Without Hank and his hard driving, raising money, promoting and keeping Bill on task, the book may never have been written. On April 26, 1939 Bill and Lois were evicted from their home at 182 Clinton Street in Brooklyn. They moved in with Hank and Kathleen Parkhurst who were now living in Upper Montclair, New Jersey. On May 14, 1939, a Sunday afternoon, the very first meeting of what was to become the New Jersey Group of Alcoholics Anonymous took place in the home of Hank and Kathleen in Montclair. Meetings that had been formerly held in Brooklyn were held in New Jersey for the next 5 or 6 weeks. The meetings began at 4:00 PM and went most of the night. They rotated speakers for the first portion according to Jim Burwell who was also living at Hank and Kathleen's home as well at that time. In the early summer of 1939 there was a falling out between Bill and Hank. Hank wanted to leave his wife and marry Ruth Hock, the secretary from Honor Dealers. She refused his proposal and Hank felt that Bill had interfered. In late June Hank and Kathleen would split up. Hank moved to East Orange, Bill and Lois left to stay at the Bungalow owned by Horace Chrystal (a New York member) in Green Pond, New Jersey. In early September, Hank Parkhurst had returned to drinking. Bill's first sponsee, the great promoter of the Big Book and the founder of A.A. in New Jersey would never again enjoy long term sobriety. Hank would nurse resentment against Bill for the rest of his life and cause great division within the A.A. ranks in the months to come. In March of 1940 Bill and Ruth moved the office of the Alcoholic Foundation to Vesey Street in Manhattan. Not long after, Hank showed up dirty, drunk and in a bad way. He complained that the furniture in the office was still his and Bill offered him $200 for the furniture provided he signed over his 200 shares of Works Publishing Co. to the Alcoholic Foundation. Hank in desperation complied. Hank had periods of sobriety over the next 14 years despite periodic episodes of drinking. At one point he married the sister of Clarence Snyder's wife Dorothy and had Clarence working for him as a salesman for a company called Henry Giffen, Fine Porcelains. Hank's third marriage was to a Houston oil heiress. She reportedly was the love of his life. She died leaving Hank an inheritance which he later used to remarry Kathleen and purchase a chicken farm in Pennington, New Jersey. The chicken coup caught fire and was destroyed in January 1954. The story was reported in the Pennington Post, which also carried Hank's obituary on the very same day. Hank died January 18, 1954, at Mercer Hospital in Pennington, New Jersey. Lois Wilson said his death was due to drinking. Others claimed it was pills. Some thought it was both. His obituary says only that he died after a lengthy illness. Despite Hank's difficulties, A.A. owes Henry G. Parkhurst its thanks and gratitude. Without Hank, the Big Book and A.A.'s early history might be remarkably different from what we have today. A.A. in New Jersey and its history are the direct result of Hank Parkhurst's involvement in A.A. during its "flying blind" period. John B. The Big Book Study Group of South Orange, New Jersey - - - - *Hank being the "fifth" member, in Hank's 1st edition story he says: "Told him it sounded like self hypnotism to me and he said what of it . . . didn't care if it was yogi-ism, self-hypnotism, or anything else . . . four of them were well." ["Four of them well" likely refers to Bill, Dr. Bob, Eddie Reilly, and Bill Dotson. Eddie did not remain sober or stay a member for long, but he did achieve sobriety in 1949.] - - - - The following sources are gratefully acknowledged: Biographies separately published by both Mike O and Nancy O A History of The Big Book - Alcoholics Anonymous, Written by Donald B. Postings of AA History Lovers, yahoo.com A Narrative Timeline of AA History 2007 – Arthur S. Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age – AAWS Alcoholics Anonymous 1st ed. Alcoholics Anonymous 3rd ed. Pass it On – AAWS Not God - Kurtz IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5469. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: prayer request for Ray G. From: Fred . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/3/2009 11:46:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Russ and Concerned friends, After notification by Mitchell K. in his post about Ray, my wife spoke to Ginny that day (12/16/08). Ray was to have some growths removed that had returned from his previous medical condition. Ginny thanked us for calling and said Ray was doing great and would be back in OHIO for The Lake Milton Emotional Sobriety weekend held in early February. The prayer chain that was continued for Ray and Ginny helped see them BOTH through, and the Grace of God blesses them and all they touch everyday. Gratefully Yours, Fred from Ohio - - - - From: "Maria Hoffman" (jhoffma6 at tampabay.rr.com) Yes, Ray is doing great. The surgery was successful and the recovery is going well. Now, if we could just get him to take it easy for a while. He was Home from the hospital on Saturday, entertained Christmas guests Thursday and at 2 meetings the Monday following! He thanks everyone for so many cards and calls. Maria Hoffman - Largo Florida - - - - Original message #5464 from "Russ Stewart" (russ1022 at ptd.net) Has anyone heard how The Ardmore Archivist is doing? I have been blessed to have spent time with Ray as my own personal tour guide on more than 2 occasions in Akron. He also came with me to Chagrin Falls, Ohio where my father is buried and stood by me and supported me as I made a very tearful graveside amends. May God bless him and my prayers are with him and his wife Ginny. Two of the greatest AA blessings I have ever met... One of my more favorite moments with Ray were at Dr. Bob's grave. As he lowered himself to his knees next to the headstone, with tears streaming down his cheeks, Ray said, "I know were not supposed to have heroes in AA, but Dr. Bob was mine. He was a true man of Christ." _____ Mitchell K. Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 10:42 PM To: AA History Lovers; Mel Barger; Glenn Chesnut; Matt Dingle; Ernest Kurtz; Bill Lash; Jared Lobdell; Shakey Mike G.; Al Welch Just got an e-mail message that Ray G. is going in for surgery tomorrow (Wednesday) in Florida. Please keep Ray in your thoughts and prayers for a speedy recovery if that be God's will. Mitchell IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5470. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill Wilson against the use of vulgar lanquage From: allan_gengler . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/7/2009 5:45:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This statement by Bill Wilson can be found on page 3 of "Experience, Strength & Hope," the collection of stories from the first three editions of the Big Book: > "Since the audience for the book [Big Book] > is likely to be newcomers, anything from the > point of view of content or style that might > offend or alienate those who are not familiar > with the program should be carefully elim- > inated . . . Profanity, even when mild, > rarely contributes as much as it detracts. > It should be avoided." - - - - > Message 5450 from > (hjfree at fuse.net) asked: > > >I have seen a letter or comment attributed > >to Bill Wilson regarding abusive and vulgar > >lanquage not being appropriate at meetings. > > > >Clues where to look? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5471. . . . . . . . . . . . SoCal GSR Preamble From: Shane . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/5/2009 11:33:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does anyone know the origin of the GSR preamble which is read at monthly District Meetings here in Southern California??? I would appreciate any info you may have. Thanks. Shane P. Archivist, Area 05 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5472. . . . . . . . . . . . Other 12 step groups'' use of the 12 steps and 12 traditions From: lester112985 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/5/2009 8:53:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello group and Happy New Year, On the title page of the basic text of Narcotics Anonymous there is a statement that reads 12 Steps and 12 Traditions reprinted for adaption by permission of A.A. World Services, Inc. Can someone tell me how this permission is obtained from AA. Was this a conference action? Where can I find this in print from AA? I have been asked this question more than once, any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks Lester Gother Archivist Area 44 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5473. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Interviewing oldtimers From: rick tompkins . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/4/2009 9:18:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello New Archivist Steve, What is "already circulated by AAWS" as the 'Oral History Kit' you will find in the Archives Workbook. Online at the Fellowship's website (aa.org), it collected and gathered many of the questions archivists have been utilizing for a very long time. Originally it was expanded from a few questions to many questions, back to a few questions (Workbook 2004) and back to the list available today. Of course, one interview question leads to others! If new ideas come to you please share them. And, allow the interviewee as much recollection time as he or she'd like. Rick, Illinois IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5474. . . . . . . . . . . . Transcribing oral interviews. From: charley.bill . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/5/2009 2:56:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This is especially for Glenn, and anyone else burdened by lots of interviews to transcribe. I went to the doctor recently and after his exam, he pulled out a microphone and dictated his report into the machine, gave me a copy and one for my primary care doc.. He was using Dragon Naturally Speaking 9.5 and it only made one error! I ran down to Fry's and bought one of the Professional edition Dragons and started reading up on what it can do. I have been back to Fry's to get a small Sony recording device. I think I am now set up to learn how to record interviews, or transfer tapes to hard disk, and print the transcript, to have this Dragon transcribe my entire backlog. It says it can do it. I wonder if any one has any ideas for setting this work up, whether I will need any more equipment, etc. I would appreciate your help and will keep you posted on my progress. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5475. . . . . . . . . . . . Florence R. and Rollie H. From: Michael F. Margetis . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/4/2009 4:23:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII FLORENCE RANKIN'S GRAVE: In the Spring 2007 issue of "Markings" is an article about the Washington (DC) Intergroup (WAIA) locating Florence Rankin's grave. It's a touching story about finding her burial site in a rundown section of the cemetery (George Washington Cemetery, Adelphi, Maryland) and raising funds, privately, to purchase a headstone. Apparently there was no headstone, just a marker. Bob W. and the WAIA archives committee are doing a fantastic job! ROLLIE HEMSLEY'S GRAVE: Not long ago I learned, from reading old baseball player bios, that Rollie Hemsley of Cleveland Indians catcher 1940 anonymity break fame, was buried at the same cemetery. I live nearby and an AA friend and I visited both gravesites recently. Quite an experience. If anyone is interested in photos I'll be happy to email them. Contact me at: (mfmargetis at yahoo.com) Link to the Markings story, pg 4: http://www.aa.org/en_pdfs/f-151_markings_spring07.pdf Thanks, Mike Margetis Brunswick, Maryland - - - - From the Markings story: Florence R. was among the first women to get sober in A.A., and the only one to write a story for the first edition of Alcoholics Anonymous. (Her story, “A Feminine Victory,” is now found in Experience Strength and Hope with others from the first three editions of the Big Book.) We in the archives committee felt that as a part of A.A. history she was deserving of some commemoration, and so decided to locate her grave. We called the cemetery offices and asked if they had a grave site for Florence R. Their search proved negative. We then recalled that the death certificate was for Florence K. (her married name) and called the cemetery again with that name, and that did the trick. They had such a gravesite recorded April 1943. Making arrangements with the cemetery offices, we arrived to continue our search. The caretaker provided a map and a marker and told us that they would give us help with our search. Two cemetery workers arrived with a shovel and a metal detector and off we went —- to an unkempt part of the cemetery where there were no grave stones –- just a lot of weeds, trees, and leaves. After much pacing off of distances, the two workers exclaimed, “Here it is!” The workers used the shovel to clear the area so that the metal marker could be seen. We planted the flag marker and laid down a single flower. The cemetery informed us how we could go about purchasing a gravestone .... at our next Washington Area Intergroup Association Board meeting [the] consensus was that ... it was inappropriate to use A.A. money. [But] when we announced that private funds would be sought, we left the meeting with sufficient pledges to cover the cost of both the stone and its installation. - - - - From Nancy Olson's biographies of the Big Book authors: http://www.a-1associates.com/westbalto/HISTORY_PAGE/Authors.htm#Florence%20R anki\ n [1] A Feminine Victory -- Florence Rankin New York City. Original Manuscript, p. 217 in 1st edition Florence was the first woman to get sober in A.A., even for a short time. She came to A.A. in New York in March of 1937. She had several slips, but was sober over a year when she wrote her story for the Big Book. It must have been difficult for Florence being the only woman. She prayed for inspiration to tell her story in a manner that would give other women courage to seek the help that she had been given. She was the ex-wife of a man Bill Wilson had known on Wall Street. She thought the cause of her drinking would be removed when she and her husband were divorced. But it was her ex-husband who took Lois Wilson to visit her at Bellevue. Bill and Lois got her out of Bellevue and she stayed in their home for a time. After she left their home she stayed with other members of the fellowship. In part, due to Florence having been sober more than a year, "One Hundred Men" was discarded as the name for the Big Book. She moved to Washington, D.C. and tried to help Fitz Mayo ("Our Southern Friend"), who after sobering up in New York started A.A. in Washington, D.C. She married an alcoholic she met there, who unfortunately did not get sober. Eventually Florence started drinking again and disappeared. Fitz Mayo found her in the morgue. She had committed suicide. Despite her relapse and death from alcoholism, Florence helped pave the way for the many women who followed. She was in Washington by the time Marty Mann ("Women Suffer Too"), the next woman to arrive in A.A. in New York, entered the program. Marty only met her once or twice, but her story in the Big Book no doubt encouraged Marty. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5476. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Florence R. and Rollie H. From: Karl Kleen . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/9/2009 12:28:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Would some member of the group who knows how to do these things, consider adding Memorials for Florence Rankin and Rollie Hemsley to the FIND A GRAVE website? http://www.findagrave.com/index.html You could include photos of their gravestones in their Memorials. That way we could all make a (virtual) visit to their Memorials and access any photos posted thereon. (Someone else might have other photos that they could add?) Several persons of interest already do have Find A Grave Memorials. Karl K. - - - - From the moderator: for example, Bill Wilson and Lois Wilson, where Doug B. posted some photos. - - - - In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Michael F. Margetis" wrote: > > FLORENCE RANKIN'S GRAVE: > In the Spring 2007 issue of "Markings" is an > article about the Washington (DC) Intergroup > (WAIA) locating Florence Rankin's grave. > > It's a touching story about finding her burial > site in a rundown section of the cemetery > (George Washington Cemetery, Adelphi, Maryland) > and raising funds, privately, to purchase a > headstone. Apparently there was no headstone, > just a marker. > > Bob W. and the WAIA archives committee are > doing a fantastic job! > > ROLLIE HEMSLEY'S GRAVE: > Not long ago I learned, from reading old > baseball player bios, that Rollie Hemsley of > Cleveland Indians catcher 1940 anonymity break > fame, was buried at the same cemetery. I live > nearby and an AA friend and I visited both > gravesites recently. Quite an experience. If > anyone is interested in photos I'll be happy > to email them. > > Contact me at: > (mfmargetis at yahoo.com) > > Link to the Markings story, pg 4: > http://www.aa.org/en_pdfs/f-151_markings_spring07.pdf > > Thanks, > > Mike Margetis > Brunswick, Maryland > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5477. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill Wilson against the use of vulgar lanquage From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/9/2009 4:43:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Let us remember though that Bill also wrote somewhere else that visitors to an AA meeting might be surprised by the salty language that sometimes occurred. Unfortunately, I can't find the reference, having keyed in words like swearing, salty language, curses, bad language, strong language, etc., in the Grapevine digital archive. Can anyone point me in the right direction? - - - - To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.comFrom: agengler@wk.netDate: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 22:45:07 +0000Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Bill Wilson against the use of vulgar lanquage This statement by Bill Wilson can be found on page 3 of "Experience, Strength & Hope," the collection of stories from the first threeeditions of the Big Book: > "Since the audience for the book [Big Book] > is likely to be newcomers, anything from the > point of view of content or style that might > offend or alienate those who are not familiar > with the program should be carefully elim- > inated . . . Profanity, even when mild, > rarely contributes as much as it detracts. > It should be avoided." - - - - > Message 5450 from > (hjfree at fuse.net) asked: > > >I have seen a letter or comment attributed > >to Bill Wilson regarding abusive and vulgar > >lanquage not being appropriate at meetings. > > > >Clues where to look? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5478. . . . . . . . . . . . Re:Other 12 step groups'' use of the 12 steps and 12 traditions From: Mark . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/9/2009 10:36:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Good morning all, My understanding on the responsibility of the offering of permission to reprint AA Conference Approved literature is that the Trustees and appointed directors who are responsible for the organization we know as the AAWS. The AAWS makes the decisions, on a case by case basis, as to the use of or reprinting of AA Conference Approved literature. I could be wrong, but that is what I have deduced from the published minutes of the AAWS. I quote from a portion of the August 2008 AAWS minutes .... "Reprint Requests - Since the April-May 2008 General Service Conference, the A.A.W.S. Board has granted permission/did not object to 36 requests to reprint from A.A. literature, and denied permission (including lack of authority to grant permission) to 28 requests." Mark IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5479. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Transcribing oral interviews. From: secondles . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/8/2009 5:06:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I'm using Naturally Speaking to transcribe some interviews I had during my research trip to Vermont. You will be surprised (I think) as to how easily it works, and its accuracy. One interesting part is that you can intersperse using your keyboard as often as you like. Keyboard editing is easy or using commands after you get aquainted with many of those. Speaking clearly is the clue when you first set it up. Have fun ! Les - - - - From: "Laurence Holbrook" (email at LaurenceHolbrook.com) Great tip - thanks - on my way to get a copy - By the way, a lot of cell phones will store voice record notes/memos - Instead of 'one button' for email or contacts, I set one button to record - Push the button and I can make notes when I'm driving if I see something interesting or think of something needing attention - Dragon Naturally Speaking ought to be able to transcribe those notes as well - Larry Holbrook Email@LaurenceHolbrook.com (410) 802-3099 - - - - In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "charley.bill" wrote: > > This is especially for Glenn, and anyone else > burdened by lots of interviews to transcribe. > > I went to the doctor recently and after his > exam, he pulled out a microphone and dictated > his report into the machine, gave me a copy > and one for my primary care doc.. He was > using Dragon Naturally Speaking 9.5 and it > only made one error! > > I ran down to Fry's and bought one of the > Professional edition Dragons and started > reading up on what it can do. I have been > back to Fry's to get a small Sony recording > device. > > I think I am now set up to learn how to record > interviews, or transfer tapes to hard disk, > and print the transcript, to have this Dragon > transcribe my entire backlog. > > It says it can do it. I wonder if any one has > any ideas for setting this work up, whether > I will need any more equipment, etc. I would > appreciate your help and will keep you posted > on my progress. > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5480. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: SoCal GSR Preamble From: LS31101@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/8/2009 4:12:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The GSR preamble appeared in Box 459 Vol. 35 no.4 Aug/Sept 1989. I don't know if this was the "first" appearance. Gary S. Alt Registrar, Area 67 - - - - In a message dated 1/8/2009 1:42:28 P.M. Central Standard Time, shane.pena@verizon.net writes: Does anyone know the origin of the GSR preamble which is read at monthly District Meetings here in Southern California??D I would appreciate any info you may have. Thanks. Shane P. Archivist, Area 05 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5481. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: SoCal GSR Preamble From: Jocelyn . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/10/2009 5:05:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Would one of you please post a copy of this preamble? I am not (to my knowledge) familiar with it. I went to the 459 Archives to look this up. They do not go back that far. Jocelyn - - - - On Thu, 1/8/09, LS31101@aol.com wrote: From: LS31101@aol.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: SoCal GSR Preamble To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, January 8, 2009, 9:12 PM The GSR preamble appeared in Box 459 Vol. 35 no.4 Aug/Sept 1989. I don't know if this was the "first" appearance. Gary S. Alt Registrar, Area 67 - - - - In a message dated 1/8/2009 1:42:28 P.M. Central Standard Time, shane.pena@verizon. net writes: Does anyone know the origin of the GSR preamble which is read at monthly District Meetings here in Southern California?? D I would appreciate any info you may have. Thanks. Shane P. Archivist, Area 05 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5482. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Florence R. and Rollie H. From: Michael F. Margetis . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/10/2009 11:54:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Karl, Rollie was already on "Find A Grave", I added a photo that is "pending approval" from the website. Hopefully that will be viewable soon. I created one for Florence and submitted a photo, so that should be viewable now. Remember when looking up Florence use Kalhoun as her last name, not Rankin. - Mike Margetis Brunswick, Maryland --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Karl Kleen" wrote: > > Would some member of the group who knows how to > do these things, consider adding Memorials for > Florence Rankin and Rollie Hemsley to the FIND A > GRAVE website? > > http://www.findagrave.com/index.html > > You could include photos of their gravestones > in their Memorials. That way we could all make > a (virtual) visit to their Memorials and access > any photos posted thereon. (Someone else might > have other photos that they could add?) > > Several persons of interest already do have > Find A Grave Memorials. > > Karl K. > > - - - - > > From the moderator: for example, Bill Wilson > and Lois Wilson, where Doug B. posted some > photos. > > - - - - > > In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, > "Michael F. Margetis" mfmargetis@ wrote: > > > > FLORENCE RANKIN'S GRAVE: > > In the Spring 2007 issue of "Markings" is an > > article about the Washington (DC) Intergroup > > (WAIA) locating Florence Rankin's grave. > > > > It's a touching story about finding her burial > > site in a rundown section of the cemetery > > (George Washington Cemetery, Adelphi, Maryland) > > and raising funds, privately, to purchase a > > headstone. Apparently there was no headstone, > > just a marker. > > > > Bob W. and the WAIA archives committee are > > doing a fantastic job! > > > > ROLLIE HEMSLEY'S GRAVE: > > Not long ago I learned, from reading old > > baseball player bios, that Rollie Hemsley of > > Cleveland Indians catcher 1940 anonymity break > > fame, was buried at the same cemetery. I live > > nearby and an AA friend and I visited both > > gravesites recently. Quite an experience. If > > anyone is interested in photos I'll be happy > > to email them. > > > > Contact me at: > > mfmargetis@ (mfmargetis at yahoo.com) > > > > Link to the Markings story, pg 4: > > http://www.aa.org/en_pdfs/f-151_markings_spring07.pdf > > > > Thanks, > > > > Mike Margetis > > Brunswick, Maryland > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5483. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Florence R. and Rollie H. From: charles Knapp . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/13/2009 1:35:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII For Rollie Hemsley, search in the famous names section of Find a Grave for "Ralston Hemsley." It has been there since 2006. Charles from California --- On Sat, 1/10/09, Michael F. Margetis wrote: From: Michael F. Margetis Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Florence R. and Rollie H. To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, January 10, 2009, 8:54 PM Karl, Rollie was already on "Find A Grave", I added a photo that is "pending approval" from the website. Hopefully that will be viewable soon. I created one for Florence and submitted a photo, so that should be viewable now. Remember when looking up Florence use Kalhoun as her last name, not Rankin. - Mike Margetis Brunswick, Maryland IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5484. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Florence R. and Rollie H. From: Karl Kleen . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/13/2009 2:19:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Silkworth and Dowling on "Find a Grave" --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Michael F. Margetis" wrote: > > Karl, > > Rollie was already on "Find A Grave", I added > a photo that is "pending approval" from the > website. Hopefully that will be viewable soon. > > I created one for Florence and submitted a > photo, so that should be viewable now. Remember > when looking up Florence use Kalhoun as her > last name, not Rankin. > > - Mike Margetis > Brunswick, Maryland Thank you Mike -- your photo of Rollie's gravestone is indeed viewable now. Earlier I had found the Find A Grave Memorials for Bill, Dr. Bob and their wives. Dr. & Antoinette B Silkworth have Memorials also at: http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=Silkworth&GScid=99997& GRid\ =11339789& [2] and http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSvcid=19285&GRid=11339783& Fr Edward P. Dowling's Memorial can be found at: http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSvcid=19285&GRid=16958125& Thank you for adding the material that you did! Karl K. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5485. . . . . . . . . . . . Richard Peabody find a grave From: diazeztone . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/13/2009 9:57:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=13530276 One of the members of this group needs to make a wiki entry for him. I don't have time. I still would like to post his photo. LD Pierce aabibliography.com IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5486. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: SoCal GSR Preamble From: Joseph HerronJr. . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/14/2009 1:21:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII THE GSR PREAMBLE "WE ARE THE GENERAL SERVICE REPRESENTATIVES. WE ARE THE LINK IN THE CHAIN OF COMMUNICATION FOR OUR GROUPS WITH THE GENERAL SERVICE CONFERENCE AND THE WORLD OF A.A. WE REALIZE THE ULTIMATE AUTHORITY IN A.A. IS A LOVING GOD AS HE MAY EXPRESS HIMSELF IN OUR GROUP CONSCIENCE. AS TRUSTED SERVANTS, OUR JOB IS TO BRING INFORMATION TO OUR GROUPS IN ORDER THAT THEY CAN REACH AN INFORMED GROUP CONSCIENCE. IN PASSING ALONG THIS GROUP CONSCIENCE, WE ARE HELPING TO MAINTAIN THE UNITY AND STRENGTH SO VITAL TO OUR FELLOWSHIP. LET US, THEREFORE, HAVE THE PATIENCE AND TOLERANCE TO LISTEN WHILE OTHERS SHARE, THE COURAGE TO SPEAK UP WHEN WE HAVE SOMETHING TO SHARE, AND THE WISDOM TO DO WHAT IS RIGHT FOR OUR GROUPS AS A WHOLE." --- On Sat, 1/10/09, Jocelyn wrote: From: Jocelyn Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: SoCal GSR Preamble To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, January 10, 2009, 2:05 PM Would one of you please post a copy of this preamble? I am not (to my knowledge) familiar with it. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5487. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: SoCal GSR Preamble From: Dolores . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/15/2009 6:13:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dear Joseph, thank you for the GSR preamble. It is a good reminder that we are trusted servants. I find at times when younger members join service and have no sponsor they tend to present AA as a business and not a fellowship. I will pass this preamble on for sure. Thanks, Dolores CER Continental European Region - - - - From: Cindy Miller (cm53 at earthlink.net) Why is this called the Southern California GSR Preamble? It was used here in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania at a District Meeting as recently as 10 years ago. - - - - Original message from: Joseph Herron Jr. To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 7:21 AM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: SoCal GSR Preamble THE GSR PREAMBLE "WE ARE THE GENERAL SERVICE REPRESENTATIVES. WE ARE THE LINK IN THE CHAIN OF COMMUNICATION FOR OUR GROUPS WITH THE GENERAL SERVICE CONFERENCE AND THE WORLD OF A.A. WE REALIZE THE ULTIMATE AUTHORITY IN A.A. IS A LOVING GOD AS HE MAY EXPRESS HIMSELF IN OUR GROUP CONSCIENCE. AS TRUSTED SERVANTS, OUR JOB IS TO BRING INFORMATION TO OUR GROUPS IN ORDER THAT THEY CAN REACH AN INFORMED GROUP CONSCIENCE. IN PASSING ALONG THIS GROUP CONSCIENCE, WE ARE HELPING TO MAINTAIN THE UNITY AND STRENGTH SO VITAL TO OUR FELLOWSHIP. LET US, THEREFORE, HAVE THE PATIENCE AND TOLERANCE TO LISTEN WHILE OTHERS SHARE, THE COURAGE TO SPEAK UP WHEN WE HAVE SOMETHING TO SHARE, AND THE WISDOM TO DO WHAT IS RIGHT FOR OUR GROUPS AS A WHOLE." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5488. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: SoCal GSR Preamble From: charles Knapp . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/18/2009 2:24:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The GSR Preamble We are the General Service Representatives. We are the link in the chain of communication for our groups with the General Service Conference and the world of A.A. We realize the ultimate authority is a loving God as he may express Himself in our Group Conscience. As trusted servants, our job is to bring information to our groups in order that they can reach an informed group conscience. In passing along this group conscience, we are helping to maintain the unity and strength so vital to our fellowship. Let us, therefore, have the patience and tolerance to listen while others share, the courage to speak up when we have something to share, and the wisdom to do what is right for our group and A.A. as a whole. History: The GSR Preamble as stated above, got its start here in Southern California and Area 9 in particular. During the time that Genevieve L. was the Panel 24 (1974-75) Delegate of California Mid-Southern Area 9, someone came up with a Preamble to read at Area meetings which was quite a strong directive to GSRs making them the ultimate authority over Alcoholics Anonymous. Gene asked Goldene L., who was the Area Treasurer at the time, to come up with something to soften this Preamble. She did and she came up with the one they are still using today. Goldene L. would later go on and serve as Area 9 Panel 28 (1978-79) Delegate. The Central Intergroup Office of the Desert, Palm Springs, California printed the G.S.R. Preamble in its May 1988 issue of their newsletter. The GSO staff picks up on it and ran short article and reprinted the preamble in the August/September 1989 issue of Box 459. This preamble is being used in many of the Areas throughout the United States and Canada today. (source: Goldene L. interview, March 2, 2004 & Box 459 ) Hope this helps charles from california - - - - From: Cindy Miller (cm53 at earthlink.net) Why is this called the Southern California GSR Preamble? It was used here in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania at a District Meeting as recently as 10 years ago. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5489. . . . . . . . . . . . How AA began in Richmond, Indiana (via Jim Burwell) From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/16/2009 4:26:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Apologies to those who don't have the good fortune to live near Richmond, Indiana (the gateway to sobriety for the entire mid-western United States!) but this local document "History of Alcoholics Anonymous in Richmond, Indiana, and vicinity" has just today become available for viewing and/or downloading on our Area 23 Website. http://www.area23aa.org/a/view/Main/Richmond This 50-page PDF Document can be downloaded with one click! But if you would like to research a certain page - perhaps your home town of Greenville, Ohio, or perhaps, Muncie, Indiana, you can simply go to the appropriate page and print it up. Much thanks to Mike H., for making this process possible! Bob S. - - - - From the moderator: And also see the articles on early A.A. in other parts of Indiana collected at "How A.A. Came to Indiana" at: http://hindsfoot.org/Nhome.html This article that Bob S. has just posted is a detailed fifty-page account of the beginnings of A.A. in Richmond, Indiana and the surround- ing parts of Indiana and Ohio. The town of Richmond is on the state line, roughly halfway between Indianapolis and Dayton, Ohio. The story began when Bob B., a paint store owner in Richmond, got sober by visiting a business associate in Philadelphia, a man named JIM BURWELL who had gotten sober in 1938 and had started A.A. in that city. Jim's story in the Big Book is called "The Vicious Cycle" (it is on page 219 in the current 4th edition). Jim was the early New York A.A. group's first "self-proclaimed atheist," the one who insisted that the phrase "as we understood Him" had to be added to the reference to God in Steps 3 and 11. Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5490. . . . . . . . . . . . Cebra Graves biography From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/22/2009 1:18:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I am trying to find a biography, or at least an obituary, of Cebra Graves. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Bob S. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5491. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Cebra Graves biography From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/22/2009 8:37:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Culture Alcohol and Society Quarterly, Vol. 3, No. 7 (April-June 2008): 8-16 http://dl.lib.brown.edu/libweb/collections/kirk/casq/ PROGRESS REPORT: THE MESSENGERS TO EBBY: CEBRA G. Cebra Quackenbush G. (1898-1979) was from Bennington, the son of Judge Collins Millard G. (1872-1954). He attended Williams College for a year before enlisting in the Army in World War I, later read law in his father's office, attended Columbia in NYC in 1924, acted on Broadway 1924-27, went back to Vermont, served as State's Attorney in the Bennington district 1928-1932, then State Senator 1933-1935. He married five times, the last time to Lucette Caron Culbert in France, where he lived from 1954 till his death on January 1, 1979, at the age of 80. He met Lucette in the early 1920s through her brother Claude Caron, whose daughter Leslie (b. 1931) may be named after Leslie Cornell (I have written Claude's nephew, Lucette's son, Frédéric [Ted] Culbert, on this). In one of his Broadway stints, Cebe G. acted with Elmer Cornell, a cousin of Shep's and brother of actress Leslie Cornell. Cebe's son Jack Y. C. G., from his third marriage, was a year behind me at Yale (both of us in Saybrook College) and I've been in touch with him. Cebe's brother Van Vechten Breese G. (b. 1906), Brown 1929, still lives in Bennington. I have been given access to the transcript of a recording Bill W. made of Cebra's reminiscences in 1954, so I am using the proper AA form of reference to Cebra G.] The name Cebra reputedly goes back in the Quackenbush (Cebe's mother's) family to "El Cebra" (true name and surname unknown), a patriot in the Dutch War for Independence (1567-1609), who was whipped by the Spaniards ("given stripes") so that he was said to have looked like a zebra ("Cebra"). The surname Cebra appears on Long Island before the American Revolution, and it presumably entered the Quackenbush family from the Cebra family then rather than in the days of the House of Orange-Nassau. Cebra G.'s first marriage was in 1921 at St Paul's Episcopal Church in Troy NY to Carolyn Caldwell of Troy, daughter of James Henry Caldwell, President of the Troy Trust Company. She was a 1917 graduate of the Misses Masters' School at Dobbs Ferry. Cebra is described as a graduate of the Westminster School and of Williams College. Recent research in Vermont has given us the name of Cebra's second wife Lenore Pettit (b. 1907), later a member of the Jackson Pollock world. After her 1933 divorce from Cebe, granted by Magistrate Collins M. G[-----] she m. Howard Baer whom she divorced in 1944. I tried to find a connection with the Margaret Pettit who is listed as the wife of Cebe's eventual brother-in-law Claude Caron and mother of Leslie Caron (b. 1931), but it is apparently a different family. On Lenore Pettit later on, here is an excerpt from the transcript of Tape 2 of an Interview January 14, 1976, with Matsumi (Mike) Kanemitsu (1922-1992) who eventually married Lenore Pettit (transcript in the Los Angeles Art Community Group Project, Smithsonian, Washington DC): "In any case, after Willett Street studio I move to Front Street. Front Street is right off the Fulton Fish Market, between [it and] Wall Street. And I rent the second-floor studio. This lady rent the whole top floor of the building, and I get to know her. We started going together, but we lived in the same building. Her name was Lenore Pettit, and she was a fashion model, and she just get divorced to the senator from Vermont; I forgot his name [State Senator Cebra Q. G.]. Then she married to commercial artist named Howard Baer, and that end in divorce. So we started going together, and she have a house in East Hampton. And so, naturally, I go with her and help her to fix the house, carpentry and all this. And those days, East Hampton is artists move in, and the first person I met is our neighbor, Leo Castelli; later he open a gallery. Leo was there, and Bob Motherwell – he bought a place – and they were our neighbors. And across the pond, called Georgeca-Pond, is Alphonso Ossorio. And in those day, I remember Franz Kline and de Kooning rent house at Bridgehampton, so I get to see them very often in East Hampton in the summertime. Then de Kooning and Franz and Jackson Pollock, I naturally see often there in the summertime. And then [they were] closely associated with Harold Rosenberg, art critic, and Clement Greenberg." Cebe's third marriage was in 1936 to Mary Ormsby Sutton of 1170 Fifth Avenue in New York (residence of her aunt, Edna Sutton) and of Pittsburgh (residence of her father J. Blair Sutton). Her mother, Mary Phillips Sutton, was no longer alive. Mary graduated from the Fermata School in Aiken, South Carolina, in 1931 and from Sarah Lawrence in 1933. She was presented to society at a dinner dance at the Allegheny Country Club in Pittsburgh in December 1933, by her father and stepmother. The G.-Sutton wedding was conducted by Justice of the Peace Leo Mintzer in Harrison NY, with Mr and Mrs Elwood Kemp of New York City as the witnesses. Again, Cebra is described as a graduate of Westminster and Williams. He is also described as having been a State Senator in Vermont 1933-35. Mary Ormsby Sutton (G.) Moore was born July 16, 1915, and died in Sewickley PA on October 13, 2001. She was the mother of John (Jack) Yates Cebra G., Yale '62, Cebra's son. They were divorced in the later 1940s. On August 15, 1950, died in Southampton, Long Island, New York, the former Barbara Corlies, Cebe's fourth wife, Barbara Corlies G., daughter of the late Arthur and Maude Robinson Corlies and (fourth) wife of Cebra G. She was born in 1909/1910 and had previously been married to Allen Hall. Note that Jack G. has lived in Easthampton much of his life (and lives there now). Lenore lived in the Hamptons. So did Barbara. Cebra served up to the rank of Lt. Commander in the U.S.N. in World War II, used his G. I. Bill to go to Columbia School of General Studies and then the Columbia Graduate School, receiving his B.A. and then at least his M.A. in Classics. From 1946 to 1951 he was an Instructor in Classical Studies (Humanities) in Columbia School of General Studies After his fourth wife died, he reopened his acquaintance with Lucette Caron (Culbert), whom he had met in France around 1920-21. After 1954 he lived the rest of his life in France, where his son Jack visited him from time to time. Jack (b. 1940) recalls that his father lived a while in Pownal on Clermont Avenue, and even in his fifties, his parents (who died in 1954 and 1955) would still smell his breath and wait up for him if he stayed with them. He thinks his father was drinking during the brief fourth marriage. When his father was in this country and Jack was about 13 or 14, Jack asked his father to play "ball" – to play "catch" – and his father did, even though he had a hangover. Eventually he had to lie down, and Jack asked him if it would help if he placed wet washcloths over his forehead, which he did. Eventually his father asked Jack, "What do you think of your old man?" and Jack answered, "I just think you're sick, Dad" – and whatever he meant, his father told him afterward that his reply was a major step on his father's road to sobriety. When Jack's parents' marriage (Cebra's third) was breaking up after World War II, Jack, as a young boy, tried to mediate between them whever they had an argument – "I tried to get them back together" – and when the marriage failed his mother went back to Pittsburgh, where she was brought up. His father renewed an acquaintance he had made in France thirty years before – he had met Lucette Caron (Culbert) while fishing in Saumur with his friend and her brother Claude Caron, for champagne bottles. I believe, after his fourth wife died, Cebe went over to France, looked Lucette up, found she was a widow, asked her when she would marry him, she said "Dimanche!" and they went to Mont St Michel. He came back to the States thereafter, and then returned to France for the last quarter- century of his life. He told Jack that his desire for alcohol wasn't a thirst, "it was a hunger." When in France, he went to a nunnery, for their "cure" – which involved giving him as much wine as he wanted (up to six bottles a day), to keep him off "alcohol." It was at this point he decided he didn't want to die drunk in an alcoholic ward and put his mind to being sober. "You see." Jack told me, "he would be a pretty terrific success at whatever he tried – actor, attorney, state senator, soldier and sailor, scholar and college teacher – and then he'd get bored with it. He could have been a U. S. Senator if he'd set his mind to it, but he never did." But he set his mind to being sober, and after spending time with Bill W. in 1954, he stayed sober till his death on New Year's Day 1979. His pictures as an undergraduate at Williams show a startlingly handsome man. I have not seen photographs of him later in life. A transcript of Bill W.'s conversation with Cebra G. and his (fifth) wife, Lucette, is in the Alcoholics Anonymous General Service Office Archives in New York. By the courtesy of the Archivist, Amy Filiatreau, a copy of the transcript was made available to me. I had previously listened to recordings of several of Ebby T.'s talks in which he claimed, unconvincingly to my ear, that Cebra and Shep, who brought the message to him, were both former drinking companions. Cebra's own testimony (in this transcript) says that he was at least a sometime drinker with Ebby: I remain unconvinced on Shep. Here is a summary of the relevant portions of the transcript, not in direct quotation. Cebra first saw Rowland Hazard at a party at Cebra's parents' house in Bennington in the summer of 1934. Shortly thereafter (perhaps in July) Cebra and his father had an argument, with Cebra's father saying something to the effect of "Bennington is too small for both of us," whereupon Cebra walked out of his office, without even locking the door, and started walking toward Williamstown (Massa- chusetts). After he reached the next city, Rowland drove up, presumably by accident, and asked where he was going. On finding out that he didn't know, he picked him up and drove him to the house of Professor Philip Marshall Brown, apparently an Oxford Group friend of Rowland's. They talked and the subject of alcoholism came up – and Rowland and Phil Brown virtually guaranteed that if Cebra followed the principles of the Oxford Group, he wouldn't drink alcoholically. He became active in the Oxford Group, toned down his drinking, went down to New York and went to OG meetings there, and after returning to what he considered normal drinking, he went back to Vermont, tried to make amends to his parents and follow the Oxford Group principles. After this return to Bennington, he visited Rowland in Glastonbury, and at the same time Shep was visiting there. Shep was very active in the Oxford Group. They were swimming in Rowland's pool, and talking about carrying the Oxford Group message. Ebby came into Cebe's mind – he had played golf (and had drinks) with Ebby in Manchester – and he decided they should carry the message to Ebby. The chronology of Cebe's recollections is not entirely clear, but it would appear that this was after Ebby had come up before Cebe's father in court, and after Cebe and Rowland had gone to Cebe's father to try to explain the Oxford Group principles to Cebe's father and to persuade him not to send Ebby to Brattleboro (jail). Cebe's father apparently said he'd make Rowland and Cebe responsible for Ebby (Rowland was closer in age to Cebe's father than to Cebe). Cebe recalls that he didn't know much about alcoholism at this time and he didn't have the impression that Rowland knew much about it either. Shep and Rowland were skeptical about visiting Ebby (I would guess Rowland wanted to be out of this), but finally Cebe convinced Shep to come with him to Ebby's house, where they found Ebby on the back veranda, surrounded by bottles, in a filthy suit, holding his head in his hands. So Cebe walks up and says something like, "Hi! Ebby – You having fun?" – to which Ebby responds something like, "Go to Hell!" Cebe answers to the effect that "You don't have to live like this anymore." They take his (only) suit down to Manchester Center, rout the tailor out (it's Sunday afternoon), get the suit cleaned, get Ebby cleaned up, take him to a restaurant, and talk to him about the Oxford Group. This was (by Cebe's guess) in August 1934. [Cebe's brother Van recalls Ebby as a friend of Cebe's, but not Shep, confirming my impression that when Ebby said in talks he had drinking experience with Cebra and Shep he was overstating it.] A statement by Van G. to Lester Cole, a student of the Vermont origins of A.A., made in 2007, has important implications for understanding what happened when Ebby, that day in 1934, was released by Van's (and Cebe's) father into Rowland's custody. The statement was simply that Collins G. was not a Judge but was sitting as a Family Court Magistrate. (Van was a lawyer at that time and may have been an officer of the court: he was certainly in town and aware of what was happening with his father and brother and brother's "friend.") The Family Court Magistrate sat not in criminal cases but in determining sanity or insanity for purposes of incarceration in the State Hospital. If so, it wasn't the jail at Brattleboro but the hospital at Brattleboro that Ebby had to fear. But instead Ebby went down to New York, to Calvary House (not Calvary Mission, according to Cebe), went to the Meetings, met the Oxford Group people, and joined the Oxford Group. From there Cebra's conversation goes to more of his own and Bill's experience with the Oxford Group and the early days of A.A., including some mention of Ebby later on. The story of Rowland's work with Jung (or Jung's with Rowland) seems to have come from Cebe to Bill in this conversation. Cebe recalls Rowland's telling him (during an afternoon spent with Rowland and Philip Marshall Brown) that he knew he had been having trouble with liquor, had tried a lot of places, and had gone to see Dr. Jung. (Cebe says he can't remember the year this occurred, but he thinks it was 1930 or 1931.) The mention of Dr. Jung intrigued Cebe, because he had read The Psychology of the Unconscious (in the Hinkle translation) and thought it a fascinating book. But, in 1954, Cebe recalled wondering how Jung could psychoanalyze anyone, so to speak, from German into English, especially Jung, with his symbolism, race consciousness, all that sort of thing, and how could Jung, no matter how smart he was, understand the "race-consciousness" of an Anglo-Saxon born in America? Rowland told him that after he had been going to Jung, more or less successfully, for a year or so, Jung discharged him – and in a month, he got drunk again, and came back in a state of panic or despair – and that was when Jung told him he needed a religious conversion. At this point, Cebe's chronology becomes somewhat (or even more) confused, as he is under the impression that all this had been relatively recent, perhaps a matter of months between his leaving Jung and his interaction with Cebe in Vermont in 1933-34. In any case, on a drive from South Williamstown to Pittsfield, Massachusetts, Rowland had taken his usual bottle along as a companion, and that, all of a sudden, he had heard a voice saying to him, "You will never take a drink again." He took the bottle and threw it into the bushes, and that was the story Rowland told Cebe at Philip Marshall Brown's house in July or August 1934. At this point in his reminiscence to Bill, Cebe remarks that he thought Christianity was all very well – he didn't disbelieve in it – but Jung was a very considerable person indeed, and flinging a bottle away was something no alcoholic was likely to think of with the monkey on his back. He remembered asking Rowland about the hangover, and being told more or less that Rowland could bear it – which was more than Cebe thought he ever could. In fact, he tells a story about going to an Oxford Group meeting and commenting on a young lady there, to the effect "There's a good looking doll," and being told that he was offending against the laws of Purity, and responding to the effect, "Purity, my eye! I joined this outfit to get over a hangover." (On the "good looking doll," we should remember Cebe was once a Broadway actor, and he was married five times. He remarked in his conversation with Bill that he didn't do well with the rarefied spiritual atmosphere of the Oxford Group.) We can see that much of Bill's information on Rowland may have come from Cebe (unless of course Cebe's came in a roundabout from Bill). Three other points emerge from the conversation, besides what has been noted here and in our last issue. One is that Cebe joined AA in New York in 1940. One is that it was Cebe (not Shep and certainly not Rowland) who knew Ebby before 1933: Cebe recalls playing golf with Ebby, and says he had known him for many years in Manchester. And one is that Cebe remembered Bill telling him, at Calvary, that the Oxford Group was fine, one couldn't complain about its principles, but he (Bill) didn't think it was the right thing for alco- holics. Here is a brief summary of Cebe's account of his introduction to A.A. in 1940. Cebe reports that he really knew nothing about A.A. until 1940, when he was hypnotized in an effort to get over drinking and had promptly gotten drunk again. He saw a friend of his, an older woman, whose husband had died from cirrhosis of the liver and other alcohol-related problems, at the age of 92. She asked him what was wrong and he told her about the failure of hypnotism to cure his drinking. She asked him if he remembered Morgan R. and how he used to stumble and fall around? He said he did. She said Morgan hadn't had a drink in several years. Cebe went to see Morgan, who was busy, but gave him the name of Bert T. He went to see Bert and went to a meeting that night and saw Ebby there, at the clubhouse on 24th Street that had just opened up. He expected to see people from the Bowery, but that didn't bother him, because he figured that was where he belonged anyway. He reports he had no trouble accepting the first step because he was licked when he got there and seriously felt he was crazy – so he was happy to find he was an alcoholic and amazed that there were people who could do something about it. (Cebe carried the message to Ebby in 1934; he came to A.A. in 1940; he did not finally get sober until 1954.) In a letter written to me in June 2008, Jack writes "My father, Cebra Quackenbush G[---], who was born on August 26, 1898, once told me that if I wanted to know what his upbringing had been like, I should read Samuel Butler's The Way of All Flesh, the satire on Victorian ways. Being the eldest of Collins Millard and Florence Quackenbush G[-----]`s four sons, who lived in Bennington, Vermont, he was, I suppose, Ernest Pontifex, though the parallel is by no means exact. As with Ernest, though, things ended happily for him. His last 28 years were spent with the love of his life, Lucette Caron, in France, a country that because of its intellectual bent and broad- mindedness, he far preferred to America. "He was classically educated, at the Westminster preparatory school, and was a fine teacher, scholar, and linguist, though he was also a soldier, in France in World War One, a Naval officer in World War Two, an actor on Broadway, in the 1920s, and a State's Attorney and State Senator in Vermont in the `30s. Concerning his many-sided career, he told me that once he learned the ropes, he became bored. "His `greatest trick' was to have completed, in just a few years following World War Two, two years of undergraduate work – he studied at Williams in 1916, before enlisting, and spent a year at Columbia in 1924 – and his Master's and Doctorate requirements, while teaching Greek, Latin, and the Humanities in Columbia's Classics Department. Had he had his druthers, he told me, he would gladly have been a professional student his entire life. "He did not make much of his drinking, nor of his work with A.A., with me. I only saw him drunk once in my life, when I was twelve, on a summer visit to Bennington…. I had inveigled him into playing catch and, nursing a hangover, after a few minutes of this, he had to excuse himself to lie down. As he lay there, he asked, `What do you think of your old man?' I put a cold washcloth on his forehead, and I said I simply thought he was sick. It's probably the best thing I've ever done. "It was his view, too, that he was sick. I've learned that in going through some of his papers. There was wine on the table whenever I visited him and my stepmother in Paris and Urrugne, in the Basque country, where they had a house. Everyone drank it but he. In fact, he said he thought that I drank more than he did, day in and day out. "He was of a religious bent, throughout his life, persuaded, as I think he was, by St. Thomas Aquinas's logic, and enamored, as he was, of Latin, from an early age. He was interested in Buddhism, too, but, in the end, he said that when it came to religious matters, he was `a Westerner.' His religiosity played a large part in his battle with alcoholism. He converted to Roman Catholicism while in a clinic at Dax over the Christmas holidays in 1954. In the end, he said, it was `the sight of Sister Marie Joseph standing over my bed and smiling down at me" that had accomplished it.' "'I feel it impossible for me to describe that smile,' he wrote in an account he wrote at the time. `It was not the smile of a professional greeter; it was not one of amusement at the plight into which I had gotten myself; but it was one of compassion, sweetness, and perhaps, above all, it was a smile of perfect confidence that I would get well, and gave me a feeling of hope that I shall not attempt to describe. I have been to many hospitals and sanitariums to recover from alcoholism, and, on several occasions, have been treated in a perfectly kindly fashion, but I am not conscious that I have ever been received as above….' "'I am certain that everyone who has been converted towards or away from any belief or way of life has a strong desire to understand what has happened to him and to tell others of the great event, to the end that they, too, may be brought to peace, happiness, and a useful life. I have read many such accounts and, though it never occurred to me to doubt the fact of the conversion, I have never been able to see how it was accomplished: i.e., the one converted seems never to have had anything to do with his change of heart. At least, so it was in my case.' "'Not for one minute were all my problems solved, but from Christmas Day I was convinced that, despite all my sins, (1) I could be saved, and also (2) all hatreds and resentments vanished in a moment. I wish to emphasize that, in so far as I was conscious, my will played no part in either of these feelings. I am certain that the first was largely inspired by a terrible fear, but I have not felt it before; and, as for the second, it was as automatic as the love that one suddenly experiences for a person towards whom one is unconsciously drawn. I wish to emphasize that I endeavored to strike no bargain with my Maker: I did not say, feel, or promise, actually on in effect, "Lord, if you will save me from a living death, I will give up my dislikes and hatreds." I merely knew that the people whom I felt had offended me acted as they had because they could not help it, and I no longer considered them blameable in any way….' "'Nevertheless, if it can be said that one person converts another, it was not the logic of Thomas Aquinas, but the smile of Sister Marie Joseph and my subsequent treatment by my Catholic brothers and sisters that melted and changed my heart and mind….' "'If a man who is truly religious is guided by God to say the right thing to those in need of help – and I firmly believe this – le Chanoine Gayan could not have struck a more sympathetic chord in me than he did in his counsel after my confession. He did not give me one bit of specific advice about avoiding the sins I had confessed, but spoke to me only of the Grace of God and that I must always remember I was completely dependent on it. Intellectually, I must have known this doctrine for years and have even lectured on it, but I never understood it, as I did when le Chanoine Gayan spoke to me for two or three minutes on the afternoon of January 1 [1955].' "He read from the prayer book he received from Sister Marie Joseph every day. He died at the age of 81 on December 31, 1979, in a hospital in Bayonne (near Urrugne) as the result of a hole in a lung that caused him to suffocate. Undoubtedly he would have lived longer in America. His younger brother, Van, who lives in Bennington, is 102! But he was, he said, ready to get off the merry-go-round. When I last saw him, he was sitting in bed having some chocolate. `Don't worry about me – I've got a good thing going,' he said with good cheer. "While I'm sure Sister Marie Joseph's smile played a big part, I think he was really saved by Lucette Caron, his fifth wife. Their story is fascinating. He met her in St. Moritz while fishing for champagne bottles in the mid-`20s, through the instance of her brother, Claude, who had admired my father's dexterity. When it came time to leave Paris – he and his first wife had been footed to a trip there by her father – he told Lucette that he'd look her up in twenty-five years. Twenty-five years later – and without a word having been exchanged between them in that time – he sent her a telegram, "J'arrive" ["I'm coming"]. "Having lived an interesting life after a brief marriage in the `20s to another American, she was beguiled, but worried too, on receiving his telegram. He had been very handsome, yes, but that was twenty-five years ago. Would he still have his hair, his teeth? She asked her son, Teddy Culbert, what she should do, and he advised that she meet the bus at Les Invalides, which she did. My father and she took up where they left off, and soon were off to Mont St Michel and a life together. "Even France Dimanche, generally a scandal magazine, was touched, and wrote it up. In that article, I think, Lucette was quoted as saying that while she went out with Frenchmen, she always married Americans. They were a compelling couple: he, the handsome, worldly intellectual whose encyclopedic knowledge of history was much admired in France, and she, the mercurial journalist (Paris-Soir, Paris Match, Mademoiselle) who had been a Captain in the Resistance, and who was described once as `one of the five tyrants of the fashion world.' My father loved it that she was not a reformer, as apparently some of his American wives had been. With nothing to rebel against, the decision was up to him. Give it up or die in a crise alcoolique. When my father told her he would give up drinking if she would return to the church, Lucette said she would, and off she went to confession – her first in many, many years. With a smile, he told me she had said, when the priest asked what she would like to confess, "Well, I haven't done anything that anyone else hasn't done …" [Note: Lucette Caron was the translator for at least one French film made in Morocco in the early 1920s and also of Michael Arlen's Le Feutre Vert (1928). She was born February 17, 1898. Her brother Claude married an American dancer, Margaret Petit, and their daughter is Leslie Claire Margaret Caron (b. July 1931). Teddy Culbert, Lucette's son by her first marriage, still lives in France.] Cebra G.'s Religious Beliefs: Text of Carbon Copy of Document [Undated]: I believe in an all-powerful and benign force that has ordained a system of immutable laws by which the universe is governed. When these laws do not seem to operate, it is merely because they are not at all, or imperfectly, understood.. I believe that our well-being, mental, physical and spiritual, proceeds from a conformance with these laws, consciously or unconsciously. I do not believe in sin in the sense that it is an offence against some deity, but that it consists of a refusal or inability to keep the laws that govern our every thought and action. I do not believe in a personal God who takes an Interest in our individual behaviour, regardless of our own attitude in the matter, but I do believe that by an act of will or desire we can make ourselves a part of the orderly harmonies of the universe, and that by so doing,' the ears of some of us will be attuned to a celestial music. It is by this conscious desire to accept the universe that we draw to ourselves those qualities and conditions which can result in the good life for each of us. I believe that the measure of each human action should be whether or not our lives tend to be permanently enhanced thereby. I believe that the past should be without regard, except for whatever pleasant memories it may hold for us, or warnings with respect to our future conduct, and that regret is a luxury that the human race can ill afford. I believe that all men are brothers and that this is .a fact unwise to ignore. I believe that there are many errors but no sins, and that repentance should be limited to a decision to act in a wiser and maturer manner in the future, should a similar occasion of error arise. I believe in an afterlife of some sort, the details of which I am unable to understand, but whether individual or collective survival, I dare not speculate. I believe neither in salvation or damnation in the conventional sense, except in so far as they are self-decreed. The duration of each is a matter of individual choice. I also believe that the form which our after life will take will be largely determined by the use we make of the one we have. - - - - > From: rstonebraker212@comcast.net > Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 06:18:44 +0000 > Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Cebra Graves biography > > I am trying to find a biography, or at least > an obituary, of Cebra Graves. Any help would > be greatly appreciated. > > Bob S. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5492. . . . . . . . . . . . William M., Tools for Fools From: diazeztone . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/22/2009 7:18:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Anybody know anything about this book? Alcoholics Anonymous Book: "Tools For Fools" 1971 by William M. ld pierce aabibliography.com - - - - From the moderator -- I dug up a little more info, although I know nothing about the book: William Musser, Tools for Fools: For Alcoholics and Other Human Beings First printing: M and M Publishing, Minneapolis, 1971, over 7¾" - 9¾" tall. Full-bound gold buckram, brown titles, 87 pages Paperback version: Table Publishing Co., Plymouth, Minnesota, 1978 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5493. . . . . . . . . . . . AA History presentation - Califon NJ - 7 Feb 2009 From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/23/2009 7:03:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The Spiritual Awakenings Group of Bernardsville, New Jersey presents two great presentations on AA history & pre-AA history: “The History of the AA book ‘Twelve Steps & Twelve Traditions’ and what AA was like in the N.Y.C. Area from 1949 to 1959” with Matt D. from East Ridge NY AND “A Re-Enactment of a Washingtonian Temperance Meeting” with April K. from Lebanon Township NJ on Saturday, February 7th, 2009 from 1:00PM – 5:00PM at the Fairmont Presbyterian Church Community House 247 County Route 517 (across from the Fairmont Cemetery) Califon, New Jersey 07830 Matt D. is the son-in-law of Tom P. Tom helped AA co-founder Bill W. write and edit AA’s “Twelve Steps & Twelve Traditions”(1952), the stories in the second edition of the Big Book (1955), and “Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age” (1957), and was a major participant at the AA World Service Office in N.Y.C. from 1949 to 1959. Tom was also sponsored at different times by AA’s co-founders Dr. Bob and Bill W. Matt has spoken at length with Tom and has studied all of Tom’s writings and talks about that period of time in AA history. The Washingtonians were a temperance society in the mid-1800s that, in the first five years of their existence, helped approximately 500,000 alcoholics. Five years later they self-destructed, never to be heard from again. Bill W. read a book about them and saw that AA was having the same problems that caused the demise of the Washingtonians so he developed the Twelve Traditions to assure AA’s future. IMPORTANT - WE WILL BE PASSING A SELF- SUPPORTING COLLECTION BASKET TO COVER EXPENSES AND NO COFFEE WILL BE SERVED. For more info please call Barefoot Bill at 201-232-8749 (cell). For a copy of the flyer, please go to http://www.justloveaudio.com and then click on "events" and then scroll down to this event. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5494. . . . . . . . . . . . Photos of Hank Parkhurst, Rowland Hazard, Jimmy Burwell From: Lee . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/25/2009 3:50:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello friends, Has anyone a clue as to where to find/view photos of any of these people: Hank Parkhurst, Rowland Hazard, Jimmy Burwell other than the standard ONE of each that can be found everywhere? Thanks, Lee Email address (FriendLeeCPA at msn.com) - - - - From the moderator: for Rowland Hazard, do you have both of these photos? http://www.texasdistrict5.com/history-in-photos.htm http://hindsfoot.org/archive3.html IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5495. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: AA History presentation - Califon NJ - 7 Feb 2009 From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/25/2009 9:56:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The notion that Bill W wrote the Traditions based on reading a book about the Washingtonians is absurd. The Washingtonians did not help 500,000 alcoholics - the vast majority of their membership make-up rapidly evolved to be non-alcoholic temperance advocates and adolescents. Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bill Lash Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 6:03 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] AA History presentation - Califon NJ - 7 Feb 2009 The Spiritual Awakenings Group of Bernardsville, New Jersey presents two great presentations on AA history & pre-AA history: "The History of the AA book 'Twelve Steps & Twelve Traditions' and what AA was like in the N.Y.C. Area from 1949 to 1959" with Matt D. from East Ridge NY AND "A Re-Enactment of a Washingtonian Temperance Meeting" with April K. from Lebanon Township NJ on Saturday, February 7th, 2009 from 1:00PM - 5:00PM at the Fairmont Presbyterian Church Community House 247 County Route 517 (across from the Fairmont Cemetery) Califon, New Jersey 07830 Matt D. is the son-in-law of Tom P. Tom helped AA co-founder Bill W. write and edit AA's "Twelve Steps & Twelve Traditions"(1952), the stories in the second edition of the Big Book (1955), and "Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age" (1957), and was a major participant at the AA World Service Office in N.Y.C. from 1949 to 1959. Tom was also sponsored at different times by AA's co-founders Dr. Bob and Bill W. Matt has spoken at length with Tom and has studied all of Tom's writings and talks about that period of time in AA history. The Washingtonians were a temperance society in the mid-1800s that, in the first five years of their existence, helped approximately 500,000 alcoholics. Five years later they self-destructed, never to be heard from again. Bill W. read a book about them and saw that AA was having the same problems that caused the demise of the Washingtonians so he developed the Twelve Traditions to assure AA's future. IMPORTANT - WE WILL BE PASSING A SELF- SUPPORTING COLLECTION BASKET TO COVER EXPENSES AND NO COFFEE WILL BE SERVED. For more info please call Barefoot Bill at 201-232-8749 (cell). For a copy of the flyer, please go to http://www.justloveaudio.com and then click on "events" and then scroll down to this event. ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5496. . . . . . . . . . . . Early Indianapolis Group pamphlet From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/26/2009 3:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: "Bruce C." (brucecl2002 at yahoo.com) In "To Be Continued ...", by Charlie Bishop Jr. and Bill Pittman, they list as item # 630: "Alcoholics Anonymous." Indianapolis, IN: Indianapolis Group of AA, January 1949. Note: 3.25" x 6.25". This small 6-page foldout pamphlet contains basic information about AA and the Twelve Steps. Have any of you seen or do you know about the contents of this pamphlet? I have checked with some Southern Indiana Area 23 historians, and am told that they do not know or have a copy of this. The Indianapolis Intergroup Office prints a "Who Me" pamphlet, that has the Johns Hopkins University 40 questions. I recall an article from the Cleveland Central Bulletin: Central Bulletin, June 1944, page 4. INDIANAPOLIS GROUP An interesting little folder comes to our attention from Indianapolis which undoubtedly is sent or given to interested prospects and it tells distinctly the first steps in affiliation with AA as well as all necessary factual information. In it they report 27 members who have been total abstainers for a period of 1 to 6 years with the number increasing each month. The group numbers 85 men and 8 women. Do any of you know how one may get a copy of these pamphlets? Yours in Service and Recovery Bruce C. Muncie, Indiana (brucecl2002 at yahoo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5497. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill Discusses the 12 Traditions: who are the other people? From: Michael F. Margetis . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/27/2009 3:01:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In the video "Bill Discusses the Twelve Traditions" there's I think eight people sitting at the table with him. This may be too much to ask, but does anyone have a clue who some of these folks are? Thanks, Michael F. Margetis Brunswick, Maryland IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5498. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr. Silkworth''s signature From: Fred . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/27/2009 1:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The "Doctors Opinion" in the 16th printing of the First Edition contains a blank space on pg. 2: Very truly yours, (Signed) ----- M.D. In the same part of the 1st printing of the Second Edition the letter has: Very truly yours, William D. Silkworth, M.D. Are there any historical events, other then Dr. W. D. Silkworth's death (1873-1951) that prompted the use of his signature in that edition and those which followed? Thanx For everything you do, Fred from Ohio IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5499. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill Discusses the 12 Traditions: who are the other people? From: DON HISHON . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/28/2009 8:12:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII That video was recorded at the GSO offices, and the folks there were staff personal-----Donny. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5500. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: AA History presentation - Califon NJ - 7 Feb 2009 From: Les Spam . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/30/2009 10:35:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In the 12&12 Bill wrote at the end of Tradition 10: "The lesson to be learned from the Washing- tonians was not overlooked by Alcoholics Anonymous. As we surveyed the wreck of that movement, early A.A. members resolved to keep our Society out of public controversy. Thus was laid the cornerstone for Tradition Ten." It seems clear that Bill's knowledge of the history of the Washingtonians did play a role in motivating the development of the traditions. Eric - - - - Arthur S wrote: The notion that Bill W wrote the Traditions based on reading a book about the Washingtonians is absurd. - - - - Original Message from Bill Lash (barefootbill at optonline.net) The Washingtonians were a temperance society in the mid-1800s that, in the first five years of their existence, helped approximately 500,000 alcoholics. Five years later they self-destructed, never to be heard from again. Bill W. read a book about them and saw that AA was having the same problems that caused the demise of the Washingtonians so he developed the Twelve Traditions to assure AA's future. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5501. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: AA History presentation - Califon NJ - 7 Feb 2009 From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/28/2009 10:40:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Good morning everybody. First of all, the flyer DOESN'T say that Bill wrote the Traditions because he read a book on the Washingtonians. We all know that Bill W. was aware of common problems being experienced throughout AA & around that same time he read a book about the Washingtonians & saw where AA might end up. Also around that time the 12 Traditions began to be formulated. I put the below flyer together quickly but the point that I was trying to make is that the Washing- tonians played a part in Bill W.'s writing of the 12 Traditions. Also, if the phrase "thousands of alcoholics" works better for you instead of "500,000 alcoholics" simply replace the phrase in your head when you read it. The Washingtonians went away 150 years ago & I don't think ANYONE knows what the exact numbers were. The January 1991 AA Grapevine mentions their membership was "estimated at anywhere from one to six million, of whom perhaps 100,000 to 600,000 were sober drunks." I guesstimated a number & you can too. But whatever - please don't let this distract away from the fact that there's a cool AA history event going on in New Jersey on February 7th & all are welcome. Just Love, Barefoot Bill - - - - From: Cindy Miller (cm53 at earthlink.net) Arthur -- I never got that feeling from the announcement. They just look like 2 mighty interesting presentations -- not cause & effect. Perhaps the Washingtonians were a small influence, but NOT the total reason. - - - - From: "James" (jdf10487 at yahoo.com) It is my understanding that Bill wrote the traditions based on (one) his own experience moderating conlicts in AA, (two) mistakes he witnessed the Oxford Group make (like placing personalities over principles), (three) the Washingtonians who failed to stick to their primary purpose, and got involved in politics which resulted in contraversy and divisions which tore them apart. According to some accounts Bill believed that if the Washing- tonians had stuck to being a program for recovery from alcoholism they might have survived. Lastly Bill's thinking was influenced by reading a book called 'This Believing World" -- this book chronicled the rise and fall of various spiritual groups and speculated about what caused them to fail. Sincerely, Jim F. - - - - Original message #5493 from Bill Lash (barefootbill at optonline.net) http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/5493 “A Re-Enactment of a Washingtonian Temperance Meeting” with April K. from Lebanon Township, New Jersey on Saturday, February 7th, 2009 from 1:00PM – 5:00PM The Washingtonians were a temperance society in the mid-1800s that, in the first five years of their existence, helped approximately 500,000 alcoholics. Five years later they self-destructed, never to be heard from again. Bill W. read a book about them and saw that AA was having the same problems that caused the demise of the Washingtonians so he developed the Twelve Traditions to assure AA’s future. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5502. . . . . . . . . . . . When and where is 2009 National Archives Workshop? From: mrsaa97 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/1/2009 3:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Is there any information about the 2009 National Archives Workshop yet? When will it be? Where will it be held? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5503. . . . . . . . . . . . National Archives Workshop 24-27 Sep 2009 Woodland Hills CA From: charles Knapp . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/2/2009 7:55:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The 13th National Archives Workshop will be Sept 24 thru 27th, 2008, in Woodland Hills, California. See their flyer at: http://www.aanationalarchivesworkshop.com/ ______________________________ From: "Lee Carroll" (FriendLeeCPA at msn.com) September 24th - 27th 2009 Warner Center Marriott Hotel 21850 Oxnard Blvd Woodland Hills, California 91367 phone: 818 887 4800 Room rate = $110/night plus tax (mention NAAAW), cutoff date Sept 7th Special Guest: National Archives Workshop Archivist Gail L. Preservation/Conservation Presenters: David C. (Washington), Perry D. (Arkansas), Terry L. (Arkansas) using a hands on format Chair - George R 818 378-4186 NAAAW09@aol.com Co-chair - Mike S 805 338 5140 aaarchivesmike@sbcglobal.net ______________________________ Lee Carroll, CPA (805) 938-1981 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5504. . . . . . . . . . . . He Who Loses His Life From: CloydG . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/3/2009 6:35:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does anyone know what story this passage came from and who the author was? Clyde G. - - - - For me, AA is a synthesis of all the philo- sophy I've ever read, all of the positive, good philosophy, all of it based on love. I have seen that there is only one law, the law of love, and there are only two sins: the first is to interfere with the growth of another human being, and the second is to interfere with one's own growth. Alcoholics Anonymous 2nd edition, p. 551. - - - - From the moderator GFC: The story is "He Who Loses His Life." The author is "Bob" (initials E.B.R.), and it appears on p. 540 in the 2nd edition of the Big Book and p. 531 in the 3rd edition. He updated his story in the September 1967 AA Grapevine. See Nancy Olson's little bio (and the text of the Grapevine story) at http://www.a-1associates.com/westbalto/HISTORY_PAGE/Authors.htm IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5505. . . . . . . . . . . . Edgar Cole, Sobriety From: diazeztone . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/4/2009 11:55:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Edgar Cole, Sobriety (Philadelphia, Meroduk Pub. Co., 1925). Need info about this book and author. Does anybody have any idea who Edgar Cole was? This book was connected with the temperance movement and the prohibition movement. LDP\ www.aabibliography.com IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5506. . . . . . . . . . . . The date of Dr. Bob''s last major talk From: mdingle76 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/4/2009 5:00:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII AA History Lovers, Does anyone know the actual date of Dr. Bob's last major talk? I know it was given in Detroit, Michigan in December 1948 — but what day? Matt D. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5507. . . . . . . . . . . . Writer of Ace Full-Seven-Eleven story From: davearlan . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/8/2009 11:09:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does anyone have any info on Del Tryon who is? I have heard that he was the author of "Ace Full-Seven-Eleven," the only story from the original manuscript to be eliminated from the first edition of the Big Book. I am doing research on all the BB story writers. Thanks, Dave B IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5508. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA History presentation - Califon NJ - 7 Feb 2009 From: James Flynn . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/2/2009 4:03:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII According to a talk given by Jimmy Burwell in 1957, Bill's writing of the traditions was mostly influenced by reading a book called "This Believing World" by Lewis Brown but he was also aware of the history of the Washing- tonian Group and had some ideas on where they went wrong. The talk that I am referring to is available online for you to listen to. I will try to enclose the link so you can review it. Here it is: http://www.xa-speakers.org/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=1663 Kindest Regards, Jim F. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5509. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA History presentation - Califon NJ - 7 Feb 2009 From: khemex@comcast.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/3/2009 11:44:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Milton Maxwell, an early member of the Board of Directors of AA (The Alcoholic Foundation) was an expert on the Washingtonians and eventually wrote a masterful manuscript on their history. He was the one who asked Bill Wilson if he'd ever heard of them, and Bill hadn't. That was about the time that Bill was thinking about putting down the yet un-named principles which later became the Traditions. A number of years ago I was sent a manuscript of Milton's paper on the Washingtonians, which I retyped into a format that could be uploaded to the then fledgling internet. I think the document was about 75 pages or more. Not knowing any better myself I sent it into the cosmos and promptly crashed a server for hours. Never did that again!! I probably have a copy of that document somewhere either in hard copy or on a very old floppy disk, the really big ones. I'll try to find it, if no one else has a copy around. In Love and Service to Others, Gerry Winkelman IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5510. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA History presentation - Califon NJ - 7 Feb 2009 From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/9/2009 8:16:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This is an unbelievably minor correction but if anyone is looking up THIS BELIEVING WORLD it might be worth knowing that the author is Lewis Browne, with an e on the end. > To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > From: jdf10487@yahoo.com > Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 13:03:49 -0800 > Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: AA History presentation - Califon NJ - 7 Feb 2009 > > According to a talk given by Jimmy Burwell > in 1957, Bill's writing of the traditions was > mostly influenced by reading a book called > "This Believing World" by Lewis Brown but he > was also aware of the history of the Washing- > tonian Group and had some ideas on where they > went wrong. The talk that I am referring to > is available online for you to listen to. I > will try to enclose the link so you can review > it. Here it is: > > http://www.xa-speakers.org/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=1663 > > Kindest Regards, Jim F. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5511. . . . . . . . . . . . Milton Maxwell on the Washingtonians From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/8/2009 10:33:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In 1992 Charlie Bishop (The Bishop of Books) published a book entitled "The Washingtonians and Alcoholics Anonymous." That book included a reprint of the Maxwell article. I don't know if Charlie has this in electronic format but I'm sure it is available somewhere. I also used to have a reprint of just the article which I got from Nell Wing at GSO. (it was, according to Charlie, a 42 page article.) - - - - Message #5509 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/5509 From: (khemex at comcast.net) Re: AA History presentation - Califon NJ - 7 Feb 2009 Milton Maxwell, an early member of the Board of Directors of AA (The Alcoholic Foundation) was an expert on the Washingtonians and eventually wrote a masterful manuscript on their history. He was the one who asked Bill Wilson if he'd ever heard of them, and Bill hadn't. That was about the time that Bill was thinking about putting down the yet un-named principles which later became the Traditions. A number of years ago I was sent a manuscript of Milton's paper on the Washingtonians, which I retyped into a format that could be uploaded to the then fledgling internet. I think the document was about 75 pages or more. Not knowing any better myself I sent it into the cosmos and promptly crashed a server for hours. Never did that again!! I probably have a copy of that document somewhere either in hard copy or on a very old floppy disk, the really big ones. I'll try to find it, if no one else has a copy around. In Love and Service to Others, Gerry Winkelman IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5512. . . . . . . . . . . . Milton Maxwell and AA From: James Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/9/2009 12:36:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Facts on Maxwell from Markings (archives news letter.) .org/lang/en/en_pdfs/f-151_markings_fall08.pdf Maxwell's paper on the Washingtonian Movement was published in the Quarterly Journal of Studies on Alcohol, Volume 11, P 410-452, 1950. The paper was intended to familiarize readers with the history of the Washingtonian Movement and to compare similarities and differences between AA and the Washingtonians. The AA GV carried many articles on the Washingtonians. The first was a piece submitted by C.H.K. of Lansing, MI, titled "History Offers Good Lessons For AA." and was published in the July 1945 issue. Bill W. followed article up with an article in the August 1945 issue titled "Modesty One Plank For Good Public Relations" and then an article in the September 1945 issue titled "'Rules' Dangerous, But Unity on Public Policy Vital to Future." In both of these articles Bill focused on the failing of the Washingtonians which resulted in public controversy. Between 1945 and to date the GV has published over 15 articles on the Wahingtonians. Jim B. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5513. . . . . . . . . . . . Clarence Snyder''s Anniversary From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/11/2009 4:23:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Mitchell K, Clarence Snyder's sponsee wrote me today and mentioned that today, February 11, would be Clarence's 71st anniversary. Happy Birthday Clarence! (As a side note, when Jimmy Burwell wrote Clarence on leap year day of 1940, that the Philadelphia Group had their first meeting, he misspelled Snyder as Snider.) YIS, Shakey Mike Gwirtz Phila, Pa. USA IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5514. . . . . . . . . . . . Barefoot Bob died on 31 January 2009 From: Patricia . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/11/2009 2:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII http://alcoholism.about.com/b/2009/02/09/barefoot-bob-dead-at-age-75.htm?nl= 1 "Barefoot Bob" who created and maintained a personal website popular with members of Alcoholics Anonymous and other recovery groups, died January 31, 2009 in hospice care in Idaho after a lengthy illness. He was 75. Bob had been sober for more than 34 years. His sobriety date was Feb. 28, 1974. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5515. . . . . . . . . . . . Part 0 - The Washingtonians and How the Traditions Originated and Evolved From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/11/2009 10:49:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In AA Comes of Age pg 96 Bill W wrote: "The Twelve Traditions are to group survival and harmony what AA's Twelve Steps are to each member's sobriety and peace of mind." The history of the Traditions of AA is a fascinating one. There is actually more written about the Traditions in AA literature than there is about the Steps. A series of postings will be sent to AAHL in the form of a timeline to cover the history of the Traditions up through 1988. That is when the last major chronicle of Traditions history was published in the book "The Language of the Heart." The postings that follow will be on the topics of: Part 1 - What and when did Bill W likely know about the Washingtonians? Part 2 - The Washingtonians Part 3 - The birth of the Traditions Part 4 - The evolution of the Traditions from long to short form Part 5 - The role of the Traditions in the General Service Structure Part 6 - The links among the Traditions, Conference Charter (Warranties) and Concepts Source references for the postings are: [12&12-Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions] -- [AABB-Alcoholics Anonymous, the "Big Book"] -- [AACOA-AA Comes of Age] -- [AGAA-The Akron Genesis of Alcoholics Anonymous, by Dick B] -- [BW-RT-Bill W by Robert Thomsen] -- [BW-FH-Bill W by Francis Hartigan] -- [BW-40-Bill W My First 40 Years, autobiography] -- [DBGO-Dr Bob and the Good Old-timers] -- [EBBY-Ebby the Man Who Sponsored Bill W by Mel B] -- [GB-Getting Better Inside Alcoholics Anonymous by Nan R] [GTBT-Grateful to Have Been There by Nell Wing] -- [GSC-FR-General Service Conference-Final Report (identified by year)] -- [GSO-General Service Office-service pieces] -- [GSO-AC-General Service Office Archives Collection] -- [Gv-Grapevine-identified by month and year] -- [HIW-How It Worked by Mitchell K] -- [HT-Harry Tiebout-the Collected Writings, Hazelden] -- [LOH-The Language of the Heart] -- [LR-Lois Remembers, by Lois W] [MMM-Mrs Marty Mann, by Sally and David R Brown] -- [NG-Not God, by Ernest Kurtz] -- [NW-New Wine, by Mel B] -- [PIO-Pass It On, AAWS] -- [SI-Sister Ignatia, by Mary C Darrah] -- [SD-Slaying the Dragon, by William L White] -- [SM-AA Service Manual and Twelve Concepts for World Service] -- [www-Internet] Happy reading Arthur S IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5516. . . . . . . . . . . . Part 1 - What and When Did Bill W Likely Know About the Washingtonians From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/11/2009 10:49:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The August 1945 Grapevine carried Bill W's first Traditions article titled "Modesty One Plank for Good Public Relations" (LOH 3-6). The previous month's Grapevine had an article by CHK of Lansing, MI about the Washingtonians. Bill used the CHK article as a reference to begin his Traditions essay commentaries. The July 1945 Grapevine article by CHK contains a number of factual errors about the Washingtonians that eventually carried into Bill's Grapevine essays and subsequently into the 12&12 and AACOA. So far I can find no other source that Bill W was exposed to on the Washingtonians prior to 1945 (that does not mean there weren't any). The September 1945 Grapevine carried Bill's second Traditions article titled "Rules Dangerous, but Unity on Public Policies Vital to Future of AA." He mentions the Washingtonians again but his commentary is misinformed i.e. "they mushroomed to a hundred thousand members, then collapsed."(LOH 6-9 - its title has been shortened). In an October 1945 Grapevine article titled "The Book is Born" Bill mentions the Washingtonians again, in what I believe is an incorrect context as to the major issues of division in the Washingtonians (LOH 9-12) - more on this later. The December 1946 Grapevine reported on the NY Intergroup's 11th annual dinner that "Bill W, one of the two co-founders of Alcoholics Anonymous, delivered the principal AA address at the dinner. He reviewed AA's tremendous growth in the past few years and predicted its future. "If we remember that our first duty is face-to-face help for the alcoholic who still suffers from his illness, we need not worry about our future," he said. Drawing a contrast between AA of today and a similar organization, The Washingtonians, of 100 years ago, he pointed out how important it is to adhere to simple principles if AA is to survive. He compared the principles of the Franciscan order of 700 years ago to the principles of AA today, and concluded with a restatement of the Twelve Points of Tradition that have evolved through experience in AA. In 1950 past General Service Board Chairman Milton A Maxwell, published an extended paper on the Washingtonians while he was Assistant Professor of Sociology at the State College of Washington at Pullman. This paper was the primary source reference for October 1962, February 1971 and January 1991 Grapevine articles. There are other Grapevine articles about the Washingtonians and it should be noted that these articles do not necessarily go through a vetting and editing process to validate and corroborate their content. An excellent source of information about the Washingtonians is William White's "Slaying the Dragon" (the whole book is a gem). The October 1962 Grapevine article about the Washingtonians illustrates some of the difficulties and precautions of using the magazine as a reference source. Editorial license is interspersed among source references. The October 1962 Grapevine article states: "What happened to them? By an AA 'coincidence' there arrived at the Grapevine the same week an excerpt from a scholarly treatment of 'The Washingtonian Movement' written by Milton A. Maxwell, PhD and published in the Quarterly Journal of Studies on Alcohol. The Washingtonians, Dr. Maxwell points out, had certain notable features later incorporated into AA: ( 1 ) Alcoholics helping each other (2) Weekly meetings (3) Shared experience (4) Fellowship of a group or its members constantly available (5) A reliance upon the Higher Power (6) Total abstinence from alcohol. Unfortunately, the movement eventually was torn apart in the political and doctrinal warfare associated with the temperance and abolition movements." The last sentence beginning with "Unfortunately" is the editorial license of the article's author. It gives the impression that it is a conclusion derived from the Maxwell paper. In fact, Maxwell's paper makes no mention at all of abolition or slavery. The paper also lists the guidelines published by the Washingtonians on how to organize and conduct Washingtonian meetings. Article 3 of these provisions was to "Forbid the introduction of sectarian sentiments or party politics into any lecture, speeches, singing, or doings of the society." The matter of prohibition evolved into a definite divisive issue among the Washingtonians. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5517. . . . . . . . . . . . Part 2 - The Washingtonians From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/11/2009 10:49:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In the early 1800s, the relatively new republic of the United States was truly on a destructive alcohol binge and the effects were devastating. Prominent historical figures, such as George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin and John Adams, urgently called for a change in drinking practices. They appealed to the country for “temperance” which at that time meant “moderation” in drinking. (SD 4-5) By the 1820s, people in the US were drinking on average 27 liters (7 gallons) of pure alcohol per person each year. Many religious and political leaders were beginning to see drunkenness as a national curse. Momentum was picked up by religious leaders to change the notion of “temperance as moderation” to mean “temperance as abstinence.” This began the growth of American temperance societies that would later lead to the alcohol prohibition movement. (SD 4-5) 1840 April 5 - a group of six drinking club friends (William Mitchell, John Hoss, David Anderson, George Steers, James McCurley and Archibald Campbell) from Chase’s Tavern in Baltimore, MD formed a total abstinence society. Pledging to “not drink any spirituous or malt liquors, wine or cider” they named themselves the Washington Temperance Society (in honor of George Washington). They later became known as Washingtonians. They required a pledge of total abstinence and attendance at weekly meetings where members would tell their stories of drunkenness and recovery. As a body, they recognized no religion or creed and were politically neutral. Each member was supposed to help alcoholics who were still drinking. They sought out new prospects (“hard cases”). Their weekly meetings were held at Chase’s tavern until the owner’s wife objected to the increasing loss of their best customers. They had a 25-cent initiation fee ($5.50 today) and member’s dues of 12 ½ cents per month ($2.75 today). (SD 8-9, www Milton Maxwell paper) 1840 November 19 - the Washingtonians held their first public meeting. Growth of the movement was extremely rapid. Widespread and enthusiastic support came from numerous temperance societies. The Washingtonians had great success in mobilizing public attention on temperance by relaying their “experience sharing” of alcoholic debauchery followed by glorious accounts of personal reformation. A leader of the movement noted, “There is a prevalent impression, that none but reformed drunkards are admitted as members of the Washingtonian Society. This is a mistake. Any man may become a member by signing the pledge and continue so by adhering to it.” (SD 9, www Milton Maxwell paper) 1841 May 12 - the Washingtonians organized the first Martha Washington Society meeting for women and children in NY. They provided moral and material support to reform female inebriates and assisted the wives and children of male inebriates. This was the first temperance movement in which women assumed leadership roles. The movement also spawned juvenile auxiliary groups. Freed blacks organized separate Washingtonian societies. (SD 10) 1843 Mid-to-end - the Washingtonian movement peaked after having reached all major areas of the US. Estimates of its membership vary and are contradictory. The sole requirement for membership was to sign a “total abstinence pledge.” Members included teetotalers, temperance advocates, and a large segment of adolescents (under age 15) and drinkers of various types whose numbers far exceeded that of the “drunkards.” A reliable estimate of the number of alcoholics in the mix is impossible to derive. Over the lifetime of the movement, hundreds of thousands signed pledges but the number of rehabilitated alcoholics was likely under 150,000. (1996 GSC-FR 15, SD-10, www Milton Maxwell paper) 1847 - Estimate of when the Washingtonians “spent its force.” The society originally favored “moral suasion” to achieve reformation of the alcoholic through abstinence. However, the Washingtonian membership makeup changed rapidly and radically to consist mainly of non-alcoholic temperance advocates. Sentiments shifted away from reformation of alcoholics to the pursuit of a legal means to prohibit alcohol. Washingtonian practices came to be viewed as outmoded and interest waned. There was no sudden collapse. When the novelty and emotional appeal of the Washingtonians became outmoded, they simply faded from the scene. “AA Comes of Age” (pg 125) cites issues such as religion, politics and abolition of slavery as root causes of the Washingtonian decline. While there were certainly cases of this, there is no compelling evidence to support or conclude that these issues had a major role in the Washingtonians downfall. Prohibition was certainly a very divisive issue among the Washingtonians as were power struggles among its leadership. However, the major and pervasive causes of the Washingtonians downfall appear to be a direct result of their departing from their original membership makeup (which started out as all alcoholics) and their departing from their original primary and single purpose (which began as one alcoholic helping another alcoholic who was still suffering). It is a powerful lesson on the vital importance of AA’s Traditions to the ongoing survival of the AA Fellowship. (SD 8-14, 12&12 178-179, AACOA 124-125, PIO 366-367. www Milton Maxwell paper) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5518. . . . . . . . . . . . Part 3 - The Birth of the Traditions From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/11/2009 10:49:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII 1935 June - Almost a century after the Washingtonians, the AA Fellowship started in Akron, OH. It was a result of an action that later formed the heart of Step 12 and Tradition 5 as AA's primary purpose of carrying a message of recovery from one alcoholic to another still-suffering alcoholic. AA's co-founders, Bill W and Dr Bob, first met on Mothers Day May 12, 1935. A few weeks later, Dr Bob went on his last binge. Bill helped him through 3 days of sobering up to get ready for a scheduled surgery. Dr Bob had his last drink on the day of the surgery, which is celebrated as June 10, 1935. Bill W's sobriety date is December 11, 1934. AA marks its beginning as the day that Dr Bob, the second alcoholic, had his last drink. (AACOA, DBGO, PIO) 1935 July 4 - Carrying a message to a still-suffering alcoholic also led to the founding of AA's first group. Bill W and Dr Bob visited Bill D at Akron City Hospital in late June. Bill D had already been hospitalized 8 times in 1935 for his drinking and It took 5 days before he admitted he could not control his drinking. The 4th of July is an important date in our nation's history (it is Independence Day). The 4th of July is also an important date in AA history. AA's first group, Akron #1, marks its beginning as July 4, 1935 when Bill D, AA #3, was discharged from Akron City Hospital and joined with Bill W and Dr Bob to help other alcoholics. During the first 4 years of the AA Fellowship, there were two groups: Akron #1 and New York City. (AACOA 71-73, AABB 184, BW-RT 219-220, DBGO 81-89, NG 37, 319, PIO 152-154, GB 42, AGAA 202-203). In their earliest years, the AA groups in Akron and NY were directly affiliated with the Oxford Group. It certainly was helpful at the beginning but over time, it produced problems. During 1936, Bill W's efforts in working only with alcoholics were criticized by NY OG members. Similarly, in Akron, T Henry and Clarace Williams were criticized by OG members who were not supportive of their efforts being extended primarily to alcoholics. (NG 44-45, NW 73, AGAA 76) 1936 December - AACOA 102 notes that one of the earliest personal experiences that influenced the Traditions occurred when Bill W was two years sober. Charles B Towns offered Bill a lucrative job at his hospital as a lay alcoholism therapist. After years of a hand to mouth existence Bill wanted the job very much. The question was put to the NY group meeting in Bill's home and they rejected it. Bill complied and cooperated with their decision and later wrote in AACOA 101-102: "Three blows, well and truly struck, had fallen on the anvil of experience . The common welfare must come first . AA cannot have a class of professional therapists . and God, speaking in the group conscience, is to be our final authority." Bill went on to write "Clearly implied in these three embryo principles of tradition was a fourth: Our leaders are but trusted servants; they do not govern." (AACOA 100-102, LR 197, BW-RT 232-234, NG 63-64, PIO 175-177) On the AA calendar of "year two" (1937) the spirit of Tradition 3 emerged. A member asked to be admitted who frankly described himself to the "oldest" member as "the victim of another addiction even worse stigmatized than alcoholism." The "addiction" was "sex deviate" (revealed by Bill W in an audiotaped talk to the 1968 GSC). Guidance came from Dr Bob (the oldest member in Akron, OH) asking, "What would the Master do?" The member was admitted and plunged into 12th Step work. (DBGO 240-241 12&12 141-142) Note: this story is often erroneously intermingled with an incident that occurred eight years later in 1945 at the 41st St clubhouse in NYC. (PIO 318, 12&12 141-142). 1937 Late spring - some leaders of the OG at the Calvary Mission ordered alcoholics staying there not to attend meetings at Clinton St. Bill W and Lois were criticized by OG members for having "drunks only" meetings at their home. They were described as "not maximum" (an OG term for those believed to be lagging in their devotion to OG principles). (EBBY 75, LR 103, BW-RT 231, NG 45, NW 89-91) 1937 August - Bill and Lois stopped attending Oxford Group meetings and the NY AAs separated from the OG. This was the beginning of AA separating itself from outside affiliation and it set the groundwork for what would later become Tradition 6. The Akron group remained affiliated with the OG for two more years. (LR 197, AACOA vii, 74-76) 1937 October - Bill W and Dr Bob met again in Akron, OH. There were two groups then and about 40 sober members (more than half were sober for over a year). It was a remarkable success story since every one of the sober members had previously been considered hopeless and beyond any help at all. Bill had some rather grandiose ideas for AA hospitals, paid missionaries and a book of experience to carry the message to distant places. Dr Bob liked the book idea but not the hospitals and paid missionaries. In a meeting at T Henry Williams home, Bill's ideas narrowly passed. A single vote made the difference among the meeting of 18 Akron members. The NY group was more enthusiastic. This historic milestone marked the decision to write the Big Book. (AACOA vii, 76-77, 144-146, BW-RT 239-243, DBGO 123-124, NG 56-57, PIO 180, LOH 142) 1937 Late - The book project's first challenge was financing and it was no simple matter. The country was still in the grips of the great economic depression and the prospects of World War II were looming dangerously large in Europe and Asia. Initial efforts to raise funds were not successful. Bill W's brother-in-law, Dr Leonard V Strong, set up a meeting in December 1937 with Willard S Richardson (who was an ordained minister and manager of John D Rockefeller's philanthropies). A second meeting took place in January 1938. (AACOA 147-149, BW-RT 245-246, NG 65-66, PIO 181-185) 1948 February - Willard Richardson asked Frank Amos to visit Akron and make a report on the Fellowship. Amos wrote a very favorable and glowing report that Richardson sent to John D Rockefeller Jr urging a donation of $5,000 a year for 1 or possibly 2 years (the equivalent of $74,000 a year in today's dollars). (BW-FH 105-106 says $10,000, $5,000 a year for 2 years, in LOH 61 Bill W says $30,000 - both figures are wrong). (SM S3, BW-RT 246, LR 197, DBGO 128-135, BW-FH 105-106, PIO 185-187, LOH 143, AGAA 217, 258) 1938 March - Rockefeller replied to Richardson that it was contrary to the policy of his philanthropies to fully fund a charitable enterprise unless it was decided to carry it indefinitely. Rockefeller declined to make a donation for the second year but did provide $5,000 to be held in a fund in the Riverside Church treasury. Much of the fund was used to immediately assist Dr Bob by paying off the mortgage to his home. The remainder was used to provide Bill and Dr Bob, who were both in very difficult financial straits, with $120 a month ($1,800 a month today) so that they could continue to dedicate themselves full time to the Fellowship. (BW-RT 247, AACOA 149-151, DBGO 135, PIO 187-188, GSO-AC) 1938 August 5 - the Alcoholic Foundation was established as a charitable trust with a board of five Trustees (in LOH 61 Bill W said it started with seven Trustees). The trust indenture document specified that non-alcoholic trustees were to make up a majority of the board. The terms "Class A" and "Class B" trustees were used to make a distinction between non-alcoholic and alcoholic board members. Its first meeting took place on August 11. (GSO, BW-RT 248, AACOA 151-152, LR 197, NG 66, 307, 330). 1939 April - the first edition of "Alcoholics Anonymous" was published at a selling price of $3.50 ($52 today). the Foreword to the first edition Big Book has many of the key principles that later shaped the Traditions. To quote from the foreword: "... It is important that we remain anonymous. We would like it understood that our alcoholic work is an avocation. When writing or speaking publicly about alcoholism, we urge each of our Fellowship to omit his personal name, designating himself instead as 'a member of Alcoholics Anonymous' ... Very earnestly we ask the press also, to observe this request, for otherwise we shall be greatly handicapped ... We are not an organization in the conventional sense of the word. There are no fees or dues whatsoever. The only requirement for membership is an honest desire to stop drinking. We are not allied with any particular faith, sect or denomination, nor do we oppose anyone. We simply wish to be helpful to those who are afflicted ..." (AABB xiii-xiv 4th edition) this text also later formed the basis for the AA Preamble In the late 1930s and early 1940s, public relations had the most dramatic impact on AA membership growth. Liberty Magazine, headed by Fulton Oursler, carried a piece titled Alcoholics and God by Morris Markey (who was influenced to write the article by Charles Towns). It generated about 800 inquiries from around the nation. Oursler (author of "The Greatest Story Ever Told") became good friends with Bill W and later served as a Trustee and member of the Grapevine editorial board. (AACOA 176-178, LOH 145, 180-183 BW-FH 127-129, PIO 223-224) Membership grew suddenly in Cleveland due to the September Liberty Magazine article and a series of editorials in the Cleveland Plain Dealer by Elrick B Davis. As a result, the Cleveland group was flooded with appeals for help. Newcomers with just a few days of sobriety were assigned to make 12th Step calls. Cleveland membership surged from 20 to several hundred. (AACOA viii, 177-178, BW-RT 261, LR 197, LOH 145-146, SI 164, PIO 224, AGAA 4-5) 1939 October - (AACOA viii says summer) Akron members of the "alcoholic squad" withdrew from the Oxford Group and held meetings at Dr Bob's house. The founding of the Cleveland Group and this action by the Akron Group ended all outside affiliation between the AA Fellowship and the OG or anyone else. (NW 93-94, SI 35, DBGO 212-219, NG 81, GTBT 123, AGAA 8-10, 188, 243) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5519. . . . . . . . . . . . Part 3 - The Birth of the Traditions (continued) From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/11/2009 10:49:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII 1940 February 8 - John D Rockefeller Jr. held a dinner for AA at the Union League Club. 75 of 400 invited guests attended. Nelson Rockefeller hosted in the absence of his ill father. The dinner produced much favorable publicity for AA. It also raised $2,200 ($32,000 today) from the attendees ($1,000 from Rockefeller). Rockefeller and the dinner guests continued to provide "outside contributions" of about $3,000 a year ($43,500 today) up to 1945 when they were asked to stop contributing. The Alcoholic Foundation received the donations and income from sales of the Big Book for safekeeping. (LR 197, BW-RT 264-267, AACOA viii, 182-187, NG 92-94, BW-FH 109-112, PIO 232-235). 1940 April 16 - Cleveland Indians baseball star "Rollicking" Rollie H had his anonymity broken in the Cleveland Plain Dealer and nationally. Bill W did likewise in later personal appearances in 1942 and 1943. (AACOA 135, BW-RT 268-270, DBGO 249-253, NG 85-87, 96-96, AACOA 24-25, BW-FH 134-135, PIO 236-238, GTBT 156) 1940 May 22 - Works Publishing Co was legally incorporated as a publishing arm of the Alcoholic Foundation. The major stockholders, Bill W and Hank P, gave up their stock with a written stipulation that Dr Bob and Anne would receive 10% royalties on the Big Book for life. (AACOA 189-190, LR 199, BW-FH 119, SM 11, PIO 235-236, GTBT 92, GSO-AC) 1940 October - Bill W went to Philadelphia to speak to Curtis Bok, one of the owners of the Saturday Evening Post (the largest general circulation magazine in the US with a readership of 3,000,000). Later, in December, Jack Alexander was assigned to do a story on AA. (LR 131, BW-RT 278-279, BW-FH 140-141, PIO 244-245, GB 82) 1941 March 1 - Jack Alexander's Saturday Evening Post article was published and became AA's most notable public relations blessing. The publicity caused 1941 membership to jump from around 2,000 to 8,000. Bill W's and two other members' pictures appeared full-face in the article. (AACOA viii, 35-36, 190-191, BW-RT 281, LOH 149-150, BW-FH 146, PIO 245-247) The article, led to over 6,000 appeals for help to be mailed to the NY Office. (SM S7, PIO 249) Consequently, the NY office asked groups to donate $1 ($14 today) per member, per year, for support. This began the practice of financing what is today called the General Service Office from group and member donations. (AACOA 112, 192, LOH 149, SM S7) From all these public relations blessings emerged the proven principle in the long form of Tradition 11 that states, "There is never need to praise ourselves. We feel it better to let our friends recommend us." 1941 - Clarence S founder of AA in Cleveland joined with Cleveland pioneer Abby G to start AA's first Central Office. Bill W also credits Abby G and the Cleveland Central Office with introducing the principle of rotation to AA. 1941 December 8 - the US entered World War II. With the possibility of being recalled to active duty in the Army, Bill W requested that he be granted a royalty on book sales to provide financial support for his wife Lois. The board approved a 10% royalty. Prior to this, Dr Bob was voluntarily giving Bill half the 10% royalty that he and Anne were (irregularly) receiving. (1951 GSC-FR 13) 1942 - Board Trustee A LeRoy Chipman asked John D Rockefeller Jr. and his 1940 dinner guests for $8,500 ($102,500 today) to buy back the remaining outstanding shares of Works Publishing Inc. stock. Rockefeller lent $4,000, his son Nelson $500 and the other dinner guests $4,000. By acquiring all the outstanding shares it ensured that complete ownership of the Big Book would be held in trust for the entire AA Fellowship. Rockefeller's custom was to forgive $1 of debt ($12 today) for each $1 repaid. The Rockefeller and dinner guest loans were repaid by 1945 out of Big Book income. (AACOA 189, BW-FH 110-111, SM S7, LOH 148, AACOA says $8,000) 1942 October - Clarence S stirred up a controversy in Cleveland after discovering that Dr Bob and Bill W were receiving royalties from Big Book sales. (DBGO 267-269, BW-FH 153-154, AACOA 193-194) Bill and Dr Bob re-examined the problem of their financial status and concluded that royalties from the Big Book seemed to be the only answer to the problem. Bill sought counsel from his spiritual sponsor, Father Edward Dowling, who suggested that Bill and Bob could not accept money for 12th Step work, but should accept royalties as compensation for special services. This later formed the basis for Tradition 8 and Concept 11. Due to the amount of time both co-founders dedicated to the Fellowship, it was impossible for either of them to earn a living through their normal professions. (AACOA 194-195, PIO 322-324) 1940s Early - the NY office was variously called the Headquarters or Central Office or General Office. It had the vital job of responding to letters from groups and members. It also provided a central communications link to members attempting to start groups and helping them with growing pains. The letters from groups and members gave firm signals of a need for guidelines to help with problems that occurred repeatedly. Basic ideas for the 12 Traditions came from these letters and the principles defined in the Foreword to the first edition Big Book. (AACOA 187, 192-193, 198, 203-204, PIO 305-306, LOH 154) 1944 June - Volume 1, No. 1 of the Grapevine was published (1,200 copies). The Grapevine later played a critical and central role in the development of the Traditions and General Service Conference. It is also recognized in the long form of Tradition 9 as AA's "principal newspaper" given its newspaper format at the time. (AACOA viii, 201-203, 212, LOH 153-154, SM S79, PIO 305) 1945 - The Alcoholic Foundation wrote to John D Rockefeller Jr and the 1940 dinner guests that AA no longer needed their financial help. Big Book royalties could look after Dr Bob and Bill and group contributions could pay the office expenses. If these were insufficient, the reserve accumulated out of literature sales could meet the deficit. In total, Rockefeller and the dinner guest donated $30,700 ($345,000 today) to AA. The donations were viewed as loans and paid back out of Big Book income. This led to the principle of being fully self-supporting declining all further outside contributions and later formed the basis of Tradition 7. (AACOA 203-204) 1945 April - by the mid-1940s the accumulated letters sent to the NY office by groups and members led to reliable conclusions on what practices worked well and what did not. Groups were also asked to send in their membership rules and it provided quite a jolt. If all the rules were applied everywhere, it would be impossible for any alcoholic to join AA. Earl T, founder of AA in Chicago suggested to Bill W that the experiences sent in from group and member correspondence might be codified into a set of principles to offer tested solutions to avoid future problems. Earl recommended to Bill W that he codify the Traditions and write essays on them in the Grapevine. Earl T had a major role in the development of the Traditions (both long and short forms). He later served as a Class B Trustee from 1951-1954 and helped establish the General Service Conference. He is also the member described in the Big Book chapter "The Family Afterward" (AABB 135) as getting drunk again after his wife nagged him about his smoking and drinking coffee.(SM S8, AACOA 22, 203, GTBT 54-55, 77, SM S8, PIO 306, LOH 20-24) Bill W wrote in AACOA 208 that the period from 1945-1950 was one of immense strain and test. The three main issues were money, anonymity and what was to become of AA when its old timers and founders were gone. This 5-year period saw Bill's most intensive and exhaustive work of establishing a service structure and advocating the Traditions. The August 1945 Grapevine carried Bill W's first Traditions article titled "Modesty One Plank for Good Public Relations" setting the groundwork for his 5-year campaign for the Traditions. The preceding July 1945 Grapevine edition had an article by member CHK of Lansing, MI about the Washingtonians. Bill used this article to begin his essay commentaries on the Traditions. The July 1945 article by CHK contained a number of factual errors about the Washingtonians that carried into Bill's Grapevine essays and subsequently into the 12&12 and AACOA. 1946 April - The Grapevine was incorporated in April 1946 as the second publishing arm of the Alcoholic Foundation. The April 1946 Grapevine carried Bill W's essay titled "Twelve Suggested Points for AA Tradition." They later came to be called the "Long Form of the Traditions." Bill W wrote Grapevine essays on the Traditions up to late 1949. The essays are preserved in LOH and were used in writing the 12&12 and AACOA. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5520. . . . . . . . . . . . Part 4 - The Evolution of the Traditions from Long to Short Form From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/11/2009 10:49:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII 1946 - Bill started to feel out the board and the Fellowship on the idea of various geographical Areas coming together as an elected service conference. The board and Dr Bob were not very enthusiastic about the idea. This marked the first suggestion for the General Service Conference. (LOH 338, SM 12 says 1945) 1946 - A dispute arose over a funding solicitation letter from the National Council for Education on Alcoholism (NCEA) by Marty M. Dr Bob and Bill W's names appeared on the letterhead. An Alcoholic Foundation Board statement on fund raising was printed in the October 1946 Grapevine to disavow AA affiliation. (GTBT 29, NG 119, MMM 185) 1947 April 8 - after a difficult year of talks on policy and structure, Bill W wrote a paper titled "Our AA General Service Center-The Alcoholic Foundation of Yesterday, Today and Tomorrow." It outlined a history of the Foundation and recommended a General Service Conference and renaming the Alcoholic Foundation to the General Service Board of Alcoholics Anonymous. The Trustee's reaction was at first defensive and then outright negative. They saw no need for change. Most members would not associate the seeds of the Twelve Traditions and Twelve Concepts with the years 1946 and 1947 respectively. AA was on the verge of its teenage years and a visionary Bill W was laying the groundwork for the membership's coming of age. (AACOA 210-211, www, GSO-AC) In his August 1947 Grapevine Traditions essay titled "Last Seven Years Have Made AA Self-Supporting" Bill W wrote "Two years ago the trustees set aside, out of AA book funds, a sum which enabled my wife and me to pay off the mortgage on our home and make some needed improvements. The Foundation also granted Dr Bob and me each a royalty of 10% on the book Alcoholics Anonymous, our only income from AA sources. We are both very comfortable and deeply grateful." (LOH 62-66) The December 1947 Grapevine carried a notice that an important new 48-page pamphlet titled "AA Traditions" was sent to each group and that enough copies were available for each member to have one free of charge. It was AA's first piece of literature dedicated totally to the Traditions. A sad and gloomy cloud emerged in 1947; Dr Bob was stricken with cancer. (AACOA 209, BW-RT 303-304) Dr Bob's cancer was diagnosed as terminal in the summer of 1948. Bill W was spurred into greater urgency by the progression of Dr Bob's illness and pressed harder for a General Service Conference. It resulted in hot debates and a serious rift developed between Bill and the Class B trustees over Bill's use of "sledge-hammer tactics." In AACOA 210 Bill admits to writing a sizzling memo that "nearly blew the Foundation apart." (AACOA 210-211, DBGO 320, 348, GSO-AC) 1949 July 14 - in a letter to the Rev Sam Shoemaker Bill W wrote "So far as I am concerned, and Dr Smith too, the Oxford Group seeded AA. It was our spiritual wellspring at the beginning." In AACOA 39 Bill also wrote, "Early AA got its ideas of self-examination, acknowledgment of character defects, restitution for harm done, and working with others straight from the Oxford Groups and directly from Sam Shoemaker, their former leader in America, and from nowhere else." (AGAA 137) 1949 - as plans for the first International Convention were under way, Earl T suggested to Bill W that the Twelve Suggested Points for AA Tradition would benefit from revision and shortening. (AACOA 213 says it occurred in "1947 or thereabouts"). Bill, with Earl's help, set out to develop the short form of the Twelve Traditions, which was published in the November 1949 Grapevine. (AACOA 213, GTBT 55, 77, PIO 334, www) The entire November 1949 Grapevine was dedicated to the Traditions in preparation for the Cleveland Convention in 1950. In 1953, two wording changes were made to the version published in 1949: the term "primary spiritual aim" was changed to "primary purpose" in Tradition Six, and the term "principles above personalities" was changed to "principles before personalities" in Tradition Twelve. The November Grapevine issue also contained an article by Bill W titled "A Suggestion for Thanksgiving." Bill endorsed a suggestion in a letter and article from member TDY titled "You have a stake in the future of AA." The suggestion was to "adopt Thanksgiving Week as a time for meetings and meditation on the Tradition of Alcoholics Anonymous." (LOH 95-96). 1950 July 28-30 - AA's 15th anniversary and first International Convention was held at Cleveland, OH (estimated 3,000 attendees). The Traditions meeting was held in the Cleveland Music Hall. Following talks on the Traditions by 6 old-timer members, Bill W was asked to sum up the Traditions for the attendees. Contrary to popular belief, the short form of the Traditions were not approved at the 1950 Convention, Bill W did not recite either the short or the long form of the Traditions to the attendees. Instead, he paraphrased and summarized a variation of the Traditions that is preserved in LOH 121.This is what Bill W read and was approved: "That, touching all matters affecting AA unity, our common welfare should come first; that AA has no human authority - only God as he may speak in our Group Conscience; that our leaders are but trusted servants, they do not govern; that any alcoholic may become an AA member if he says so - we exclude no one; that every AA Group may manage its own affairs as it likes, provided surrounding groups are not harmed thereby; that we AAs have but a single aim, the carrying of our message to the alcoholic who still suffers; that in consequence we cannot finance, endorse or otherwise lend the name 'Alcoholics Anonymous' to any other enterprise, however worthy; that AA, as such, ought to remain poor, lest problems of property, management and money divert us from our sole aim; that we ought to be self-supporting, gladly paying our small expenses ourselves; that AA should remain forever non-professional, ordinary 12th Step work never to be paid for; that, as a Fellowship, we should never be organized but may nevertheless create responsible Service Boards or Committees to insure us better propagation and sponsorship and that these agencies may engage fulltime workers for special tasks; that our public relations ought to proceed upon the principle of attraction rather than promotion, it being better to let our friends recommend us; that personal anonymity at the level of press, radio and pictures ought to be strictly maintained as our best protection, against the temptations of power or personal ambition; and finally, that anonymity before the general public is the spiritual key to all our Traditions, ever reminding us we are always to place principles before personalities, that we are actually to practice a genuine humility. This to the end that our great blessings may never spoil us; that we shall forever live in thankful contemplation of Him who presides over us all." Following Bill's summation, the attendees unanimously approved the Traditions by standing vote. Notably missing from what Bill recited to the attendees were the principles in Tradition 10 of AA having no opinion on outside issues and not drawing the AA name into public controversy. Nevertheless, the attendees unanimously approved what Bill W presented. (AACOA 43, PIO 338, LOH 117-124) 1950 July 30 - Dr Bob made a brief appearance for his last talk. (GSO, PIO 339-342) Bill W later visited Dr Bob in Akron, OH for their last visit together. Bill advised Bob that the board would likely give its consent to a multi-year trial period for the General Service Conference. Dr Bob gave Bill his endorsement as well. (AACOA 213-215, DBGO 325, 340, 342-343, PIO 342, 344) On November 16, 1950 Dr Bob (age 70) co-founder of AA, died of cancer at City Hospital in Akron, OH. 1950 - Class A trustees Leonard Harrison and Bernard B Smith resolved a 5-year conflict between Bill W and the Board on having a Conference. Smith, who Bill later called "the architect of the service structure," chaired a trustee's committee that recommended that Conferences be held on a trial basis from 1951-1954 and that in 1955 it would be evaluated and a final decision made. The recommendation was approved at the Board's Fall meeting. (AACOA 209-212, PIO 344) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5523. . . . . . . . . . . . Part 5 - The Role of the Traditions in the General Service Structure From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/12/2009 10:17:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII [Corrected version] The 1951 trial Conference took place from April 20-22, 1951. 37 US and Canadian delegates (half the planned number) convened at the Commodore Hotel in NYC as the first Conference Panel. Bernard B Smith presided. 15 Trustees and various staff members from the NY Office and Grapevine Office joined the Conference as voting members. The Conference unanimously recommended several advisory actions. Among them, that AA literature should have Conference-approval. The 1952 trial Conference was the first Conference with all Delegates attending. Based on a 1951 Conference advisory action recommending that AA literature should have Conference approval, the Board formed a special Trustees committee on literature to recommend literature items that should be retained and future literature items that would be needed. Bill W also reported on the many literature projects he was engaged in. The Conference unanimously approved the Board proposals and Bill's projects (which later resulted in publication of 6 Conference-approved books). While it did not recommend specific advisory actions, by approving existing literature to be retained, the Conference retroactively approved the Big Book and several existing pamphlets, which included the long form of the Traditions. At the 1953 trial Conference, Board Chairman Bernard B Smith reported that the corporate name of "Works Publishing" had been changed to "Alcoholics Anonymous Publishing." The first Conference-approved book to be distributed under the new publishing name was the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions (12&12). It contains the final wording of the short form of the Traditions, as we know them today. (AACOA ix, 219, PIO 354-356) The 1953 Conference also recommended that no policy should be declared or action taken on matters liable to gravely affect AA as a whole unless by consent of at least 3/4 of the members present. A mere majority should not authorize action." (Reaffirmed in 1954) 1954 - Lillian R an actress and nightclub singer became the first of many celebrities to break their anonymity and announce their alcoholism and membership in AA. Her book (later movie) I'll Cry Tomorrow was a sensation. Sadly, Lillian went on to drink again and it generated bad publicity for AA. (GB 77, PIO 308-309) February 2, 1954 - Bill W declined an honorary Doctor of Laws degree from Yale U. (LOH 205, GB 69, BW-FH 201) At the 1954 trial Conference, Board Chairman Bernard B Smith delivered an eloquent talk. Its next to last paragraph is today highlighted in Chapter 1 of the AA Service Manual with the title "Why Do We Need A Conference?" The actual title of his talk was "The Lost Commandment, The Dictionary and AA." He left no doubt at all that he was firmly in favor of continuing the Conference on a permanent basis. Among other items, the Conference unanimously approved the corporate renaming of the "Alcoholic Foundation" to the "General Service Board of Alcoholics Anonymous." The renaming took place in October 1954. June 26-29 and July 3, 1955 - the 5th and last trial Conference convened in St Louis, MO. 75 Delegates unanimously recommended adoption of a permanent Conference Charter subject to approval of the second International Convention that would convene in St Louis on July 1. Bill W brought up the first Conference discussion to change the Board ratio to a 2/3 majority of alcoholics. The board ratio issue would be debated endlessly over the course of 10 Conferences. The 1955 Conference also recommended that a plan for selecting Class B trustees be approved. This was the first move to establish Regions - the initial geographical groupings were called "Area A" thru "Area E." AA's 20th anniversary and 2nd International Convention was held in St Louis' Kiel Auditorium from July 1-3, 1955. Estimated attendance was 3,800. Its theme was "Coming of Age." On the final day of the Convention, Bill W made some introductory remarks and presented a resolution to the attendees, the heart of which read: "BE IT THEREFORE RESOLVED: That the General Service Conference of Alcoholics Anonymous should become, as of this date July 3, 1955 the guardian of the Traditions of Alcoholics Anonymous, the perpetuator of the World Services of our Society, the voice of the group conscience of our entire Fellowship and the sole successors to its co-founders, Dr Bob and Bill." It was unanimously approved by the attendees. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5524. . . . . . . . . . . . Part 6 - The Links Among the Traditions, Conference Charter (Warranties) and Concepts From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/12/2009 10:28:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII [Corrected version] The 1955 approval of the Conference also extended to a new publication titled "The Third Legacy Manual of World Service as Proposed by Bill" the forerunner of today's "AA Service Manual" both of which contain the Conference Charter. The Conference Charter has 12 Articles, the 12th of which is also called "The General Warranties of the Conference." The six Warrantees in Article 12 are a condensed version of the Traditions to ensure that the Conference always functions in the spirit of the Traditions. In 1962, the Warranties also formed Concept 12 of the Twelve Concepts for World Service. The second edition Big Book was introduced at the 1955 international Convention at a retail price of $4.50 ($33 today). It contained a new appendix with the short and long form of the Traditions. However, it mistakenly listed the short form version published in the November 1949 Grapevine instead of the version published in the 12&12 in 1953. The error was not fully corrected until the sixth printing in 1963. (AACOA 220-227, PIO 354, 357) At the 1956 Conference Bill W gave a talk on the rights of "Petition, Appeal, Participation and Decision" describing them as "four principles that might someday permeate all of AA's services." They later became key principles of the 12 Concepts for World Service, specifically Concepts 3, 4, 5 and 6. They would also be called "traditional rights" in the Concepts and lead some to later call the Twelve Concepts "AA's Bill of Rights." (SM 68) The 1957 Conference approved a new set of "BYLAWS of the General Service Board" written by Bernard B Smith. They are today contained in the "AA Service Manual" as Appendix E. The 1957 Conference also approved publication of "AA Comes of Age." Guised as a 3-day diary of the 1955 Convention, it is in fact a definitive history of AA up to 1955. The Conference further recommended that no change in Article 12 of the Conference Charter or in AA Tradition or in the 12 Steps may be made with less than the written consent of three fourths (or 75%) of AA groups. The 1958 Conference approved removing the word "honest" from the term "honest desire to stop drinking" in the AA Preamble. AA legend sometimes erroneously states that the word "honest" was removed from Tradition 3. Neither the long nor the short form of Tradition 3 ever contained the word "honest." The term "honest desire to stop drinking" is from the Foreword to the first edition Big Book. It also led to changing the wording of the AA Preamble from "AA has no dues or fees" to "There are no dues or fees for AA membership; we are self-supporting through our own contributions." The changes were approved by the General Service Board in the summer of 1958 (Best of the Grapevine, vol.1, 274-275) The 1959 Conference voted to change the corporate name "Alcoholics Anonymous Publishing" to "Alcoholics Anonymous World Services (AAWS)." The Board approved the name change in October 1960. 1960 April -, Bill W declined the opportunity to be on the cover of Time magazine. (BW-FH 201) At the1960 Conference Bill W announced that for the prior 3 years, he had worked on codifying principles and developing essays for the structure of the Third Legacy of Service. The principles were announced as the Twelve Concepts for World Service. The Board adopted a policy that: "The Board believes that AA members generally think it unwise to break the anonymity of a member even after his death, but that in each situation the final decision must rest with the family." The 1962 Conference unanimously approved Bill W's manuscript titled "Twelve Concepts for World Service." The Conference recommended that the manuscript be distributed initially as a supplement to, and eventually as an integral part of, the Third Legacy Manual The 1963 Conference approved a multi-state grouping plan recommended by 1962 Conference that organized the US into six geographical Regions. Regional Trustees would be elected to the Board as Class B (or alcoholic) Trustees (AACOA x). December 1964 - Bill W enthusiastically embraced a campaign to promote vitamin B3 (niacin or nicotinic acid) therapy and created Traditions issues within the Fellowship. (PIO 388-390) The 1966 Conference approved a restructuring plan proposed by the Board in 1965, which changed the Board ratio to 14 alcoholic and 7 non-alcoholic Trustees. This ended Bill W's 10-year campaign to have alcoholics make up a 2/3 majority of the Board. The number of Regional Trustees was also increased from six to eight (six from the US and two from Canada). The Board report accepted by the 1967 Conference recommended that "to insure separation of AA from non-AA matters by establishing a procedure whereby all inquiries pertaining to B-3 and niacin are referred directly to an office in Pleasantville, NY in order that Bill's personal interest in these items not involve the Fellowship." (PIO 391) The 1968 Conference resolved that the showing of the full face of an AA member at the level of press, TV, and films be considered a violation of the Anonymity Tradition, even though the name is withheld. (PI) July 1970 - AA's 35th anniversary and 5th Int'l Convention at Miami Beach, FL. Bill W appeared on Sunday morning for what proved to be his last public appearance and talk. Bill's health had steadily weakened due to emphysema. He was confined to a wheel chair and required the administration of oxygen. (AACOA xi, NG 145-146) Bill W (age 75) co-founder of AA, 36 years sober, died at Miami Beach, FL on January 24, 1971. Three months after his death, the 1971 Conference recommended that the short form of the Twelve Concepts be approved. 1974 - In order to maintain subscriber's anonymity, the legal name of The AA Grapevine was changed to "Box 1980" to comply with postal regulation requiring the corporate name of an organization be placed on official envelopes and on the magazine itself. (1989 Conference-FR 24) The 1976 Conference approved publication of the third edition Big Book. It also expanded a provision of Article 3 of the Conference Charter that any change to the Steps, Traditions or six Warranties of Article 12 of the Conference Charter, would require written approval of 75% of the registered AA Groups known to General Service Offices around the world. This advisory action makes any proposed change to the Steps, Traditions and Warranties a virtual impossibility (even so much as adding or removing a comma). The 1988 Conference approved the AA Grapevine publication of "The Language of the Heart." It contains the Traditions essays Bill W wrote during the 1940s. It also contains many memorial and historical articles. The 1988 Conference also recommended that the 1971 Conference Action be reaffirmed that: "AA members generally think it unwise to break the anonymity of a member even after his death, but in each situation the final decision must rest with the family." Further, the AA Archives continue to protect the anonymity of deceased AA members as well as other members. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5525. . . . . . . . . . . . Who wrote the Big Book story Me an Alcoholic? From: edgarc@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/12/2009 12:39:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Any idea about who the author was of the "Me an Alcoholic?" Big Book story ??? Nancy Olson's reliable reference simply says author unknown, but the story reads like he's someone we should have heard of . . . . Edgar C. Sarasota, Florida - - - - From the moderator: Nancy Olson's account does give a lot of detailed information about this person: http://www.a-1associates.com/westbalto/HISTORY_PAGE/Authors.htm To give a few excerpts: Me an Alcoholic? 2nd edition p. 419, 3rd edition p. 432, 4th edition p. 382 Author Unknown This author's date of sobriety is believed to be November 1947. He was a father, husband, homeowner, athlete, artist, musician, author, editor, aircraft pilot, and world traveler. He was listed in "Who's Who in America." He had been successful in the publishing business, and his opinions were quoted in "Time" and "Newsweek" with pictures, and he addressed the public by radio and television. In A.A. he found the power he needed. In the seven years since he had come to A.A. he had not had a drink. He still had some hell to go through. His tower of worldly success collapsed, his alcoholic associates fired him, took control, and ran the enterprise into bankruptcy. His alcoholic wife took up with someone else and divorced him, taking with her all his remaining property. But the most terrible blow was when his sixteen-year-old son was tragically killed. Some wonderful things had happened, too. His new wife and he didn't own any property to speak of and the flashy successes of another day were gone. But they had a baby "who, if you'll pardon a little post-alcoholic sentimentality, is right out of Heaven." GFC IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5526. . . . . . . . . . . . Paying his bill at the Mayflower Hotel From: stuboymooreman81 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/17/2009 6:35:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello all, Stuart from Barking Big Book study. On p. 154 of the Big Book, Bill is in the lobby of the Mayflower Hotel in Akron, "almost broke" and "wondering how his bill was to be paid." I was wondering how he did obtain the money to pay his hotel bill and so forth. Thanks a lot, Stuart IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5527. . . . . . . . . . . . Is the 3rd Step Prayer based on any earlier prayer? From: terry walton . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/18/2009 8:42:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII On page 63 of the Big Bood, we read what is commonly referred to as the 3rd step prayer: "God, I offer myself to Thee -- to build with me and to do with me as Thou wilt. Relieve me of the bondage of self, that I may better do Thy will. Take away my difficulties, that victory over them may bear witness to those I would help of Thy Power, Thy Love, and Thy Way of life. May I do Thy will always!" Is this a prayer which was originally written by some other author? Do we know who that earlier author was? Can it be found in print in some pre-AA written source? Or was it based at least in part, on some traditional prayer? If so, does anyone have a history of the development of this prayer? "Decision" is often referred to in Oxford Group books. Does the wording of this prayer in the Big Book reflect any known Oxford Group prayers? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5528. . . . . . . . . . . . Calvary Mission - Calvary House From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/19/2009 2:18:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I would like to know the exact address of the Calvary Mission which was on East 23rd Street. Also the same for the Calvary House (across the street from the Calvary Church). Photos would be much appreciated. My email address is rstonebraker212@comcast.net (rstonebraker212 at comcast.net) Thanks in advance, Bob S. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5529. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Paying his bill at the Mayflower Hotel From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/21/2009 1:07:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII How Bill Wilson's hotel bill was paid? A possible answer could lie in the fact that Bill received living expenses from the firm of Baer and Company who sent Bill to Akron to attempt a take-over of the Akron National Rubber Company. Pass It On, p. 135, third full paragraph: "He had little money, but they promised to support his efforts." Apparently they did, throughout that entire summer; page 42 of Not God, first full paragraph, states: "Early in September, Bill Wilson's proxy battle met another apparent defeat. His sponsors soured on projects continuing costs, and Bill departed for New York." Of course, one wonders whether Henrietta Seiberling might have paid it for him before he moved to the Portage Lodge that month. Bob S. - - - - stuboymooreman81 Subject: Paying his bill at the Mayflower Hotel Hello all, Stuart from Barking Big Book study. On p. 154 of the Big Book, Bill is in the lobby of the Mayflower Hotel in Akron, "almost broke" and "wondering how his bill was to be paid." I was wondering how he did obtain the money to pay his hotel bill and so forth. Thanks a lot, Stuart IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5530. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Calvary Mission - Calvary House From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/21/2009 4:49:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "Robert Stonebraker" wrote: > I would like to know the exact address of the > Calvary Mission which was on East 23rd Street. In Helen Shoemaker's biography of her husband (I Stand By the Door: The Life of Sam Shoemaker), the address is given as 246 East 23rd Street (page 253). When Shoemaker arrived it was an unused chapel. > Also the same for the Calvary House (across > the street from the Calvary Church). According to the same book, page 89, Calvary House was built on the site of an old rectory at 103 East 21st Street. Have you checked with the parish itself for pictures? Cora IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5531. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill Wilson''s meditation practices and guilded meditation From: ryantfowler@rocketmail.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/16/2009 2:01:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does anyone know what Bill Wilson's meditation practices were like, especially toward the end of his life? Also, does anyone know when guided meditation meetings were first held? - - - - From the moderator: http://hindsfoot.org/medit11.doc "Twelve-Step Meditation in the A.A. Big Book and the 12 & 12" will give you an intro to a lot of this. Among other things, this article describes how Bill W. himself talked about the use of guided imagery on page 100 of the 12 + 12. The sections at the end of the article talk about: Quiet Time Jacobson’s method of progressive relaxation (VERY effective, and too little known and used in AA) Emmet Fox, The Golden Key (plus Fox's method of reciting a mantra to quiet and calm the soul) Glenn C. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5532. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill Wilson lived with Ernest Holmes for a while? From: ryantfowler@rocketmail.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/16/2009 1:57:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have come to understand that Bill Wilson was friends with Ernest Holmes. Also that Bill Wilson lived with Ernest Holmes for a while. Does anyone know when? And for how long he lived there? Ryan - - - - From the moderator: Ernest Holmes doesn't show up, under either the E's or the H's, on the list of names at http://silkworth.net/aahistory_names/names.html The name Ernest Holmes also does not show up in the indices to Pass It On, AA Comes of Age, or Not-God. - - - - But a Google search showed that claims have been made about a connection between Ernest Holmes and Bill W. by people who are involved in New Thought and New Age spirituality: http://improveourconsciouscontact.blogspot.com/2008/03/march-question-by-gai l-de\ witt.html [3] "New Thought principles are very similar to AA principles. Some research by ministers and practitioners reveals that Bill W and Ernest Holmes, the founder of Science of Mind knew each other and spent time together when creating the programs I so love today." http://forums.prospero.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=sp-bishopspong&msg=3657.4 5 "Bill W and Ernest Holmes, the Founder of the Science of Mind philosophy (Religious Science) were good friends and often traded concepts and socialized together. No wonder that many Science of Mind ideas are in AA and visa versa." - - - - The only Ernest Holmes whom I know about lived from 1887-1960 and was the founder of a movement known as Religious Science. He was an ordained Divine Science minister. In 1914, at the age of 25, Ernest moved to Venice, California. On October 23, 1927, in Los Angeles, he was married to widowed Hazel Durkee Foster. They were to be inseparable companions for thirty years. In 1926 his book "Science of Mind" was published and the Institute of Religious Science was established. By 1930, Dr. Holmes was speaking to overflow audiences on Sunday mornings at the Ebell Theatre in Los Angeles. He had a live radio program on CBS. Soon thereafter the first branch of Religious Science opened in Hollywood under the leadership of Dr. Robert Bitzer. This was the start of a worldwide movement which has made the teaching and practice of Science of Mind universally known. In 1953, the Institute became the Church of Religious Science. In 1967, it acquired its present-day title, United Church of Religious Science, with member churches throughout the world. - - - - So was there any direct link between Bill W. and the Ernest Holmes in California who founded Religious Science? Or is this just myth and legend? Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5533. . . . . . . . . . . . Where did Ebby reside during the winter of 1935/36? From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/21/2009 6:14:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Did Ebby -- being who he was, "Edwin Throckmorton Thacher, the brother of the Mayor of Albany, New York" -- really live, eat and sleep in the Calvary Mission -- or was he kept in the much nicer Calvary Parish House? Bob S. P.S. There is a picture of the Calvary Church Parish House and Mission on the site below - thanks Art! http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Indyfourthdimension ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Robert Stonebraker 212 SW 18th Street Richmond, IN 47347 (765) 935-0130 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5534. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Calvary Mission - Calvary House From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/22/2009 12:04:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Google search (or some other search) can provide good info: The current Calvary Episcopal Church address is: 237 Park Avenue South at 21st Street New York, N.Y. 10010 http://www.nycago.org/Organs/NYC/html/CalvaryEpis.html Graphic of church location http://stgeorgesnyc.dioceseny.org/about/directions.php A history note about Bill W and Sam shoemaker http://stgeorgesnyc.dioceseny.org/about/history.php Calvary House is adjacent to Calvary Episcopal Church - not across the street from it - the building faces Gramercy Park. The photo at the link below shows Calvary House with Calvary Church to its left. http://www.materialreligion.org/objects/may97obj.html Cheers Arthur IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5535. . . . . . . . . . . . DR. BOB against the use of vulgar lanquage From: Peter Tippett . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/22/2009 7:48:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII We had a question about Bill W. commenting on the use of foul language at meetings. Dr. Bob had a comment on that issue, see the last paragraph on page 224 of "Dr. Bob and the good Oldtimers": "While Dr. Bob's remarks were usually kind, Dan K. (who had been one of Doc's many patients at St. Thomas Hospital) noted that if a man was a phony, he would tell the man so. "And if he was sitting at a meeting and a man used bad language, Dr. Bob would say, "You have a very good lead young man, but it would be more effective if you cleaned it up a bit." Also, page 298 refers to "the language of the gutter." Pete Tippett IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5536. . . . . . . . . . . . Big Book royalties -- domestic sales only? From: tigereaz . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/16/2009 5:48:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Bob and Bill received a stipend from the sale of the BB ... but the proceeds now go to the New York GSO. The stipend was then and is now calculated only on domestic sales of the books, is that correct? Thanks Roger P IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5537. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Big Book royalties -- domestic sales only? From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/23/2009 9:58:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Roger: The history of royalties is a rather long and complicated one. Bill and Dr Bob received royalties on the Big Book. After Dr Bob's death Bill's royalty agreement was modified a number of times to grant him royalties on the Big Book, 12&12, AA Comes of Age and The AA Way of Life (later renamed to AS Bill sees It). Royalties are calculated on sales in the US and Canada. I believe there is only one beneficiary left receiving royalties based on an agreement between Lois Wilson and AAWS. Total royalties paid from 1950 to 2007 amount to around $19 million dollars (around $37 million if adjusted for inflation and converted to 2006 dollars). I'm going to post a multi-part series on royalties on AAHL - it's a much misunderstood topic - and as noted earlier a bit of a long story. Cheers Arthur ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -----Original Message----- Subject: Big Book royalties -- domestic sales only? Bob and Bill received a stipend from the sale of the BB ... but the proceeds now go to the New York GSO. The stipend was then and is now calculated only on domestic sales of the books, is that correct? Thanks Roger P IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5538. . . . . . . . . . . . Jim Blair will be having surgery From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/23/2009 10:06:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "James Blair" (jblair at videotron.ca) is going into the hospital for surgery now, here at the beginning of this week. He has been with us ever since the web group first began. He is one of the handful of key people whose work turned this web group into one of the best and most thorough historical sources around on early AA history. Please let us all give him our prayers. Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5539. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill W quote: Our quarrels have not hurt us .... From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/22/2009 5:22:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Bill W. addressed one convention and said, 'Our quarrels have not hurt us one bit.' Can anyone tell me which convention it was, and where I can get a copy of his entire address to that convention? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5540. . . . . . . . . . . . Part 1 of 3: Maxwell on the Washingtonians From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/24/2009 12:38:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: James Blair (jblair at videotron.ca) Part 1 of 3: Milton A. Maxwell, "The Washingtonian Movement" ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Quarterly Journal of Studies On Alcohol, Vol.11,410-452,1950 THE WASHINGTONIAN MOVEMENT By Milton A. Maxwell, Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Sociology State College of Washington, Pullman, Washington INTRODUCTION Certain similarities between the Washingtonian movement of the nineteenth century and the present day fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous have been commented upon by a number of observers. In view of this resemblance there is more than historical interest in an account of the first movement in the United States which brought about a large-scale rehabilitation of alcoholics. The phenomenal rise and spread of the Washingtonian movement throughout the land in the early 1940's was the occasion of much discussion, exciting a deep interest. The cause of its equally rapid decline have been a subject of much speculation and are still of concern to the members of Alcoholics Anonymous who may wonder whether or not their movement is destined to a similar fate. This article, therefore, will present not merely a description and history of the movement but also an analysis of the similarities and differences between the Washingtonians and Alcoholics Anonymous. Since the Washingtonian movement is so intimately linked to the larger temperance movement, it may be well to recall the developments which preceded 1840. Before the 1830's, "temperance" was hardly a popular cause. Even in 1812, when Lyman Beecher proposed to his fellow Congregational ministers that they formulate a program for combating intemperance, "... the regular committee reported that 'after faithful and prayerful inquiry' it was convinced that nothing could be done to check the growth of intemperance..."(1). The custom of serving liquor at ecclesiastical meetings probably influenced the outcome of this "prayerful inquiry." But Lyman Beecher was not to be stopped. He headed a new committee that recommended the following steps: .... that district assemblies abstain from the use of ardent spirits (not wine) at ecclesiastical meetings, that members of churches abstain from unlawful vending or purchase (not from lawful vending and purchase) of liquor, that farmers, mechanics and manufacturers substitute monetary compensation for the ration of spirits, that voluntary associations aid the civil magistrates to enforce the laws, and that the pamphlet of Dr. Rush (2) be printed and circulated (1).The fact that these proposals were regarded as radical by the custodians of the New England conscience is a sufficient clue to the state of public opinion in 1812. It was not until 1825 that Lyman Beecher preached his famous Six Sermons (3), in which he defined intemperance not merely as drunkenness but as the "daily use of ardent spirits." In 1826, in Boston, Beecher and Justin Edwards spearheaded the founding of the first national society, "The American Society for the Promotion of Temperance" (American Temperance Society) which sought, according to its constitution, "...to produce such a change of public sentiment, and such a renovation of the habits of individuals and the customs of the community, that in the end temperance, with all its attendant blessings, may universally prevail(4)." The temperance movement began to take hold. In 1829 there were about 1,000 societies with a membership of approximately 100,000. By 1834 there were 5,000 local societies claiming 11,000,000 members, a gain of 500 per cent in 5 years. A temperance press had been established. Effective literature had emerged. Politicians were taking notice. In 1836 the American Temperance Society was merged into the new and more inclusive "American Temperance Union," which decided to take the stand of "total abstinence from all that can intoxicate(5)." This step required an entirely new orientation. It is therefore not surprising that sone 2,000 societies and countless individuals were not ready to go along. Many wealthy contributors, unwilling to forgo wine, withdrew their support. Some leaders were discouraged by the resistance to the new pledge and became inactive. Various controversial issues added to the dissension. The movement fell upon lean years. Its leaders, in 1840, were wondering what could be done to restore the momentum of the years preceding 1836. Their effort were groping and limited. As for the alcoholic, it was the prevailing opinion, up to 1840, that nothing could be done to help him. Occasionally a "drunkard" did "reform," but this did not erase the general pessimism as to the possibility of rehabilitating drunkards. Since alcohol was held to be the "cause" of alcoholism, the temperance movement was aimed solely at keeping the nonalcoholic from becoming an alcoholic. This implied indifference to the alcoholic was epitomized by Justin Edwards in 1822: "Keep the temperate people temperate; the drunkards will soon die, and the land be free(6)." Thus the stage was set for the emergence of the Washingtonian movement. THE BALTIMORE ORIGINS One Thursday evening, April 2, 1840, six friends were drinking, as they were wont to do almost every evening, in Chasels Tavern, on Liberty Street, in Baltimore. They were William K. Mitchell, a tailor; John F. Hoss, a carpenter; David Anderson and George Steers, both blacksmiths; James McCurley, a coachmaker; and Archibald Campbell, a silversmith(7). Their conversation turned to the temperance lecture which was to be given that evening by a visiting lecturer, the Rev. Matthew Hale Smith. In a spirit of fun it was proposed that some of them go to hear the lecture and report back. Four of them went and, after their return, all discussed the lecture. ... one of their company remarked that, "after all, temperance is a good thing." "0," said the host, "they're all a parcel of hypocrites." "O yes," replied McCurley, "I'll be bound for you; it's your interest to cry them down, anyhow." "I'll tell you what, boys," says Steers, "Let's form a society and make Bill Mitchell president.".. The idea seemed to take wonderfully; and the more they laughed and talked it over, the more they were pleased with it(8). On Sunday, April 5, while the six were strolling and drinking, the suggestion crystallized into a decision to quit drinking and to organize a total abstinence society. It was agreed that Mitchell should be the president; Campbell the vice-president; Hoss, the secretary; McCurley, the treasurer; and Steers and Anderson, the standing committee. The membership fee was to be twenty-five cents; the monthly dues, 12½ cents. The proposal that they name the society in honour of Thomas Jefferson was finally rejected and it was decided that the president and the secretary, since they were to be the committee to draft the constitution, should also decide upon the name. It was agreed that each man should bring a man to the next meeting. And it was left to the president to compose the pledge which they would all sign the next day. The pledge was formulated by Mitchell as follows: "We whose names are annexed, desirous of forming a society for our mutual benefit, and to guard against a pernicious practice which is injurious to our health, standing, and families, do pledge ourselves as gentlemen that we will not drink any spirituous or malt liquors, wine or cider." He went with it, about nine o'clock, to Anderson's house and found him still in bed, sick from the effects of his Sunday adventure. He rose, however, dressed himself, and after hearing the pledge read, went down to his shop for pen and ink, and there did himself the honour of being the first man who signed the Washington pledge. After obtaining the names of the other four, the worthy president finished this noble achievement by adding his own(8). The name, "Washington Temperance Society, 11 was selected in honour of George Washington. Two new members were brought to the second meeting. Strangely enough, they continued to meet for a number of weeks at their accustomed place in Chase's Tavern. When the tavern owner's wife objected to the increasing loss of their best customers, Mitchell's wife suggested that they meet in their home. This they did until the group grew too large, whereupon they moved to a carpenter's shop on Little Sharp Street. Eventually, they rented a hall of their own. As they grew in membership they faced the problem of making their weekly meetings interesting. Their resourceful president made the suggestion that each member relate his own experience. He started off with his story of 15 years of excessive drinking, adding his reactions to his newly gained freedom. Others followed suit. This procedure proved to be so interesting and effective that it became a permanent feature of their programs. Interest and membership mounted. In November the society resolved to try a public meeting in which Mitchell and others would tell their personal experiences. The first such meeting, held on November 19, 1840, in the Masonic Hall on St. Paul Street, was a decided success. Not only did it bring in additional members but it also called the movement to the interested attention of the people of Baltimore. It was decided to repeat these public meetings about once a month in addition to the regular weekly meetings of the society. John Zug, a citizen of Baltimore who probably had his interest aroused by the first public meeting, made further inquiry and, on December 12, 1840, wrote a letter to the Rev. John Marsh, executive secretary of the American Temperance Union, in New York City, informing him of the new society in Baltimore. In it he told about the growth of the group: These half a dozen men immediately interested themselves to persuade their old bottle-companions to unite with them, and they in a short time numbered nearly one hundred members, a majority of whom were reformed drunkards. By their unprecedented exertions from the beginning, they have been growing in numbers, extending their influence, and increasing in interest, until now they number about three hundred members, upwards of two hundred of whom are reformed drunkards - reformed, too, within the last eight months. Many of these had been drunkards of many years' standing, - notorious for their dissipation. indeed, the society has done wonders in the reformation of scores whose friends and the community had despaired of long since(9). So rapidly did the society grow during the following months that on the first anniversary of the society, April 5, 1841, there were about 1,000 reformed drunkards and 5,000 other members and friends in the parade to celebrate the occasion. This demonstration made a deep impression upon the 40,000 or so Baltimoreans who witnessed the event. Additional information on the pattern of activities which made this growth possible, and on the components of the therapeutic program which made the reformation of alcoholics possible in the first place, is given in the writings of contemporary observers. John Zug, in his first letter to John Marsh, included the following description: The interest connected with this society is maintained by the continued active exertions of its members, the peculiar character of their operations and the frequency of their meetings. The whole society is considered a "grand committee of the whole," each member exerting himself, from week to week, and from day to day, as far as possible, to persuade his friends to adopt the only safe course, total abstinence; or at least to accompany him to the next meeting of the "Washington Temperance Society." It is a motto of their energetic and worthy President, in urging the attendance of the members at the stated meetings, "Let every man be present, and every man bring with him a man." They have rented a public hall in which they meet every Monday night. At these weekly meetings, after their regular business is transacted, the several members rise promiscuously and state their temperance experience for each other' a warning, instruction, and encouragement. After this, any persons present wishing to unite with them are invited forward to sign the Constitution and Pledge(9). Christian Keener, the editor of the Maryland Herald, made these further first-hand observations: These men spared neither their money nor their time in carrying out the principles which they had espoused. Many a poor fellow who from the effect of liquor had become a burden to his family and himself was fed and clothed by them, and won by kindness to reform his life; even more than this, they have supported the families of those who they had induced to join with them, until the husband and father had procured work, and was able to support them with his own hands. The peculiar characteristics of this great reform are first, a total abstinence pledge .... Secondly, the telling of others what they know from experience of the evils of intemperance, and the good which they feel to result from entire abstinence(9). John W. Hawkins, an early member, had this to say in one of his Boston speeches: Drunkard! Come up here! you can reform. I met a gentleman this morning who reformed four weeks ago, rejoicing in his reformation; he brought a man with him who took the pledge and this man brought two others. This is the way we do the business up in Baltimore. We reformed drunkards are a Committee of the Whole on the State of the Union. We are all missionaries. We don't slight the drunkard; we love him, we nurse him, as a mother does her infant learning to walk(10). Christian Keener, in another communication, summed up the work as follows, making at the same time a comparison with the operations of the regular temperance societies: The great advantage of the Washington Temperance Society has been this; they have reached hundreds of men that would not come out to our churches, nor even temperance meetings; they go to their old companions and drag them, not by force, but by friendly consideration of duty, and a sense of self-respect, into their ranks, and watch over them with the solicitude of friends and brothers...(9). Such was the character of the original Baltimore "Washington Temperance Society." THE SPREAD OF THE MOVEMENT A phenomenon like this could not be confined to Baltimore, for the Washington men had it in their power to meet many pressing needs. First of all, there were the drunkards in need of reclamation - a need long ignored because the opinion prevailed that there was no hope for them. The meeting of this need partook of the miraculous. Secondly, there was the overwhelming drive on the part of the reformed men to carry their message of hope to other victims of drink - spilling over into a desire to prevent such suffering by winning those not addicted to certain sobriety in total abstinence. Finally, there were the needs of the temperance leaders. Set back by the 1836 decision to put temperance on a total abstinence basis, they needed a convincing argument for total abstinence as well as some effective means of rekindling enthusiasm for their cause. The Washington men were the answer to these needs, for what could be a better argument for total abstinence than its apparent power to reclaim even the confirmed drunkard; and what could excite more interest than the personally told experiences of reformed drunkards? The first recorded activity outside of Baltimore was the speaking of John H.W. Hawkins, in February 1841, to the delegates of the Maryland State Temperance Society, meeting in Annapolis, and to the members of the State Legislature in the same city. Hawkins, who was to become the most effective spokesman of the movement, had joined the Washington Temperance Society on June 14, 1840, after more than 20 years of excessive drinking. Born in Baltimore on September 28, 1797, he was apprenticed at an early age to a hatmaker. During this apprenticeship he developed a dependence on alcohol which was increased during 3 years in the frontier communities of the West. His religious conversion at the age of 18 did not eradicate this craving. Resuming his trade in Baltimore, he battled in vain against his addiction. The panic of 1937 left him unemployed, reducing him to a pauper on public relief. Guilt and remorse over his family's destitution only intensified his alcoholism. His own account of his last drinking days and his reclamation, as given in his first New York talk, are preserved for us: "Never," said he, "shall I forget the 12th of June last. The first two weeks in June I averaged - it is a cross to acknowledge it - as much as a quart and a pint a day. That morning I was miserable beyond conception, and was hesitating whether to live or die. My little daughter came to my bed and said, II hope you won't send me for any more whiskey today.' I told her to go out of the room. She went weeping. I wounded her sorely, though I had made up my mind I would drink no more. I suffered all the horrors of the pit that day, but my wife supported me. She said, "Hold on, hold on. I Next day I felt better. Monday I wanted to go down and see my old associates who had joined the Washington Society. I went and signed. I felt like a free man. What was I now to do to regain my character? My friends took me by the hand. They encouraged me. They did right. If there is a man on earth who deserves the sympathy of the world it is the poor drunkard; he is poisoned, cast out, knows not what to do, and must be helped or be lost... (8). "It did not take his associates long to discover that he had the qualities of a leader. A splendid physique and commanding presence, combined with a gift for extemporaneous speaking, made him an ideal lecturer.(l)" It is not surprising, therefore, that Hawkins was selected to speak before the Maryland State Temperance Society and the State Legislature. Christian Keener left an eyewitness report of the latter occasion which helps to explain Hawkins' appeal: .... He commenced his speech by letting them know that he stood before then a reformed drunkard, less than twelve months ago taken almost out of the gutter; and now in the Senate chamber of his native State, addressing hundreds of the best informed and most intelligent men and women, and they listened with tearful attention. The circumstances had an almost overpowering effect on his own feelings and those of his audience. He is a man of plain, good common sense, with a sincerity about him, and easy way of expressing himself, that every word took like a point-blank shot. His was the eloquence of the heart; no effort at display(9). About this time, a Baltimore businessman attended a temperance meeting in New York City. News of the Baltimore developments having already been circulated by John Marsh through the Journal of the American Temperance Union, this visitor was requested to give a brief history and description of the Washington Soc3ety. A conversation with Dr. Rease, after the meeting, brought forth the suggestion that some of the Washington men be invited to New York to relate their experiences. This tentative proposition was taken to the Baltimore society, accepted by them, and the arrangements completed for a delegation of five to go. The five were William K. Mitchell, John W. Hawkins, J.F. Pollard, and two other members, Shaw and Casey. Their first meeting in New York was held on Tuesday, March 23, 1841, in the Methodist Episcopal Church on Green Street. The curious throngs were not disappointed. As in Baltimore, the experiences of these "reformed drunkards" deeply moved and inspired all those who came to hear. Not only that, but real-life drama was enacted at the meeting. The New York Commercial Advertiser reported the next morning: During the first speech a young man rose in the gallery and, though intoxicated, begged to know if there was any hope for him; declaring his readiness to bind himself, from that hour, to drink no more. He was invited to come down and sign the pledge, which he did forthwith, in the presence of the audience, under deep emotion, which seemed to be contagious, for others followed; and during each of the speeches they continued to come forward and sign, until more than a hundred pledges were obtained; a large portion of which were intemperate persons, some of whom were old and grey headed. Such a scene as was beheld at the secretary's table while they were signing, and the unaffected tears that were flowing, and the cordial greetings of the recruits by the Baltimore delegates, was never before witnessed in New York(8). All the subsequent meetings were equally successful. John Marsh and the other temperance leaders who were promoting the meetings were delighted. With no church large enough to hold the curious crowds, it was decided to hold an open air meeting in City Hall Park. More than 4,000 turned out for this. The speakers, mounted on upturned rum kegs, again enthraled the crowd. This impressive occasion was merely the climax of a triumphant campaign: about 2,000 were converted to the total abstinence pledge, including many confirmed drunkards with whom the men worked between meetings. At this time the Washington Temperance Society of New York was organized. The delegation returned to Baltimore in time for the first anniversary parade and celebration, an April 5th. With the memory of the New York success still fresh in their minds, this must have been a very happy and meaningful occasion - not merely the recognition of a year's achievement, but also a portent of things to come. Things began to happen rapidly now. While the New York meetings were in progress, John Marsh wrote to the Boston temperance leaders about the power of the Washingtonian appeal. Arrangements were quickly made so that within a week after the first anniversary celebration Hawkins and William E. Wright were on their way to Boston for a series of meetings in the churches. There were those who doubted that Bostonians would respond as enthusiastically as New Yorkers, but the coming of these speakers was well published and even larger crowds than in New York greeted them. The first meeting was held on April 15, 1841. The Daily Mail had this report the following morning: The Odeon was filled to its utmost capacity, last evening, by a promiscuous audience of temperance men, distillers, wholesalers and retail dealers in ardent spirits, conformed inebriates, moderate drinkers, lovers of the social glass, teetotallers, etc., to listen to the speeches of the famous "Reformed Drunkards," delegates from the Washington Temperance Society of Baltimore, who have excited such a deep interest in the cause of temperance in other places...Mr. Hawkins of Baltimore, was the second of the "Reformed Drunkards" introduced to the meeting. He was a man of forty-four years of age - of fine manly form - and he said he had been more than twenty years a confirmed inebriate. He spoke with rather more fluency, force and effect, than his predecessor, but in the same vein of free and easy, off-hand, direct, bang-up style; at times in a single conversational manner, then earnest and vehement, then pathetic, then humorous - but always manly and reasonable. Mr. Hawkins succeeded in "working up" his audience finely. Now the house was as quiet and still as a deserted church, and anon the high dome rang with violent bursts of laughter and applause. Now he assumed the melting mood, and pictured the scenes of a drunkard's home, and that home his own, and fountains of generous feelings, in many hearts, gushed forth in tears - and again, in a moment, as he related, some ludicrous story, these tearful eyes glistened with delight, sighs changed to hearty shouts, and long faces were convulsed with broad grins and glorious smiles(1). The Boston Mercantile Journal reported the same meeting in the following manner: The exercises at the temperance meeting at the Odeon last evening possessed a deep and thrilling interest. The hall was crowded and Messrs. Hawkins and Wright...spoke with great eloquence and power for more than two hours, and when, at ten o'clock, they proposed abridging somewhat they had to say, shouts of "Go on! Go on!" were heard from all parts of the house. We believe more tears were never shed by an audience in one evening than flowed last night...Old grey haired men sobbed like children, and the noble and honourable bowed their heads and wept. Three hundred and seventy-seven came forward and made "the second declaration of independence," by pledging themselves to touch no intoxicating drink; among them were noticed many bloated countenances, familiar as common drunkards; and we promise them health, prosperity, honour, and happiness in the pursuance of their new principles(9). When even the standing room in Faneuil Hall was filled, a few evenings later, and the crowd responded with unrestrained enthusiasm, several hundred coming forward to sign the pledge at the close of the meeting, there was no longer any doubt that the Washingtonian reformers had a universally potent appeal. Here was "human interest" material par excellence. No fiction could be more exciting or dramatic. These true-life narratives pulled at the heartstrings. They aroused awe and wonder at the "miracle of rebirth." Formal religious beliefs had flesh and blood put on dry bones. And, to the victim of drink, the Washingtonian message was like a promise of life to a doomed man. It was the impossible come true. During these meetings, a Washington Total-Abstinence Society was formed in Boston. Hawkins was also engaged as the paid secretary of the Massachusetts Temperance Society, and on June 1, 1841, returned from Baltimore with his family. Within a short space of time, he and his Boston associates succeeded in carrying the Washingtonian movement into 160 New England towns. On May 11, 1841, the executive committee of the American Temperance Union, on the occasion of its anniversary meeting in New York City, paid high tribute to the Washingtonians. In July at the national convention of the Union, at Saratoga Springs, this praise was even more fulsome. John Marsh and many of the other leaders saw in the Washingtonians the possibilities of a great forward advance for the temperance movement. None of them, however, even in their most optimistic moments, sensed the vitality that was to be manifested by the Washingtonian movement that very summer and autumn. Even before the Saratoga convention, two of the most famous of the many Washingtonian deputation teams, Pollard and Wright, and Vickers and Small, had begun extensive tours. By autumn, many teams and individuals were in the field. From the 1842 Report of the American Temperance Union, it is possible to trace the rapid spread of the movement throughout the country. J.F. Pollard and W.E. Wright, both of Baltimore - the former having accompanied Hawkins to New York, and the latter to Boston - began their work early in the summer of 1841 in Hudson, New York. Their first efforts were discouraging, but soon they got attention and in a few weeks nearly 3,000 of the 5,500 inhabitants of Hudson had signed the pledge. A Hudson resident has left this account of their type of meeting: Some of the meeting took the air of deep religious solemnity, eyes that never wept before were suffused...the simple tale of the ruined inebriate, interrupted by a silence that told of emotions too big for utterance, would awaken general sympathy, and dissolve a large portion of the audience in tears. The spell which had bound so many seemed to dissolve under the magic eloquence of those unlettered men. They spoke from the heart to the heart. The drunkard found himself unexpectedly an object of interest. He was no longer an outcast. There were some who still looked upon him as a man. A chord was reached which had long since ceased to respond to other influences less kind in their nature...The social principle operated with great power. A few leaders in the ranks of intemperance having signed the pledge, it appeared to be the signal for the mass to follow: and on they came, like a torrent sweeping everything before it. It was for weeks the all-absorbing topic...(7). Pollard and Wright attended the Saratoga convention and then toured through central and western New York; and that autumn, through New Jersey and Pennsylvania. On this tour they obtained 23,340 signatures to the pledge, "one-fifth of which were supposed to be common drunkards"(7). Late in 1841 they spoke in Maryland and Delaware. They moved in January 1842 into Virginia, where they worked particularly in Richmond, Petersburg, Charlottesville and Norfolk, pledging Negroes as well as whites. The other famous team, Jesse Vickers and Jesse W. Small, also of Baltimore, began their campaign in June 1841 in Pittsburgh, where "all classes, all ages, all ranks and denominations, and both sexes, pressed every night into overflowing churches." In a brief time 10,000 were pledged, "including a multitude of most hopeless characters"(7). This success was followed by another in Wheeling, from which place they proceeded to Cincinnati where Lyman Beecher, now president of Lane Theological Seminary, had diligently prepared the way for their coming. Large crowds turned out for the meetings and a strong Washington society was organized which, by the end of 1841, claimed 8,000 members, 900 of them reformed. Cincinnati became the chief centre of Washingtonianism in the West, and Vickers and Small spent a great deal of time preparing the converts who were to carry on the missionary work. One of these Cincinnati teams, Brown and Porter, obtained 6,529 signatures in an 8-week campaign in the surrounding country, 1,630 of them from "hard drinkers" and 700 from confirmed drunkards. Another Cincinnati team, Turner and Guptill, toured western Ohio and Michigan. On December 21, 1841, a team of three, probably including Vickers, began a campaign in St. Louis, laying the foundation for a Washington society that numbered 7,500 within a few months. Many communities in Kentucky, Indiana and Illinois were also visited. It is interesting to note that on February 22, 1842, Abraham Lincoln addressed the Washington Society of Springfield, Ill. Just how quickly the West was cultivated by the Washingtonian missionaries, operating chiefly out of Cincinnati, is shown by the May 1842 claims of 60,000 signatures in Ohio, 30,000 in Kentucky, and 10,000 in Illinois. Of these, it was claimed, "every seventh man is a reformed drunkard, and every fourth man a reformed tippler"(7). The intensity of this cultivation varied with time and place. How intensive it could be is well portrayed by a citizen of Pittsburgh, in a letter to John Marsh, in April 1842: The work has grown in this city and vicinity...at such a rate as has defied a registration of its triumphs with anything like statistical accuracy. ...The most active agents and labourers in the field have been at no time able to report the state of the work in their own entire province - the work spread us from place to place - running in so many currents, and meeting in their way so many others arising from other sources, or springing spontaneously in their pathway, that no one could measure its dimensions or compass its spread. We have kept some eight or ten missionaries in the field ever since last June, who have toiled over every part and parcel of every adjoining country of Pennsylvania, and spread thence into Ohio and Virginia, leaving no school house, or country church, or little village, cross roads, forge, furnace, factory, or mills, unvisited; holding meetings wherever two or three could be gathered together, and organizing as many as from 20 to 30 societies in a single county...(7). In the Boston area, Washingtonian activity was intensive from the beginning. Within 3 months after the first Hawkins and Wright meetings, the Boston society had this to report: Since this society went into operation the delegating committee have sent out two hundred and seventeen delegations to one hundred and sixty towns in Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Maine, Vermont, and Rhode Island, with wonderful success....Some of those towns where we have formed societies are now sending out their delegates. The whole country is now alive to the subject...It is acknowledged on all sides that no people like ours - although unlearned - could create such a wonderful interest in the all absorbing cause.... There is no doubt that about 50,000 persons have signed the pledge in the different towns that our delegates have visited. Where societies were already formed, a more lively interest was created, - new signers obtained from those who had been inebriates, and thus a new energy imparted...Where societies had not before existed, new societies were formed...(8). Ten months later, in May 1842, the Boston society had 13,000 members, had sent 260 delegations to 350 towns in New England, and had produced a number of converts who had become effective missionaries outside of New England. Benjamin Goodhue, in December 1841, stirred up great interest in Sag Harbour and the east end of Long Island. A Mr. Cady, during this winter, toured North Carolina, securing 10,000 signatures. In February 1842 Joseph J. Johnson and an unnamed fellow Bostonian conducted successful campaigns in Mobile and New Orleans. By May 1842 the movement had penetrated every major area of the country and was going particularly strong in central New York and New England. The most vigorous urban centres were Baltimore, New York, Boston, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Washington, Cincinnati and St. Louis. The city of Baltimore had 15 societies and 7,842 members. New York and vicinity had 23 societies and 16,000 members. In the Journal of the American Temperance Union, on April 1, 1842, John Marsh wrote enthusiastically of the New York activity: "We suppose there are not less than fifty meetings held weekly and most of them are perfect jams. Our accessions are numerous and often of the most hopeless characters"(9). In and around Philadelphia, where the societies took the name of Jefferson, some 20,000 members were enrolled. In the district of Columbia there were 4,297 members, and another 1,000 in Alexandria, Va. Later in the year Hawkins visited Washington and was successful in reactivating the old Congressional Temperance Society and putting it on a total abstinence basis. Congressman George N. Briggs, soon to be Governor of Massachusetts, became president of this reorganized society. To the list of outstanding reformed men who became effective Washingtonian missionaries during this first year, there should be added the names of George Haydock, Hudson, N.Y.(8,000 signatures); Col. John Wallis, Philadelphia (7,000 signatures); Thomas M. Woodruff, New York City; Abel Bishop, New Haven, Conn.; and Joseph Hayes, Bath, Me. During 1842 the most outstanding temperance orator of all was won to the cause. John B. Gough, a bookbinder, was reformed. When his platform ability was discovered, many Washingtonian societies sponsored his addresses. As his popularity grew he became a professional free-lance lecturer; and during the years 1843-47 travelled 6,840 miles, gaining 15,218 signatures to thepledge(11). Another important development was the organization of women into the little known "Martha Washington" societies. The first such society was organized "in a church at the corner of Chrystie and Delancey Streets, New York, on May 12 of that year [1841], through the efforts of William A. Wisdom and John W. Oliver"(12). The constitution detailed the purpose: Whereas, the use of all intoxicating drinks has caused, and is causing, incalculable evils to individuals and families, and has a tendency to prostrate all means adapted to the moral, social and eternal happiness of the whole human family; we, the undersigned ladies of New York, feeling ourselves especially called upon, not only to refrain from the use of all intoxicating drinks, but, by our influence and example, to induce others to do the same, do therefore form ourselves into an association(12). These Martha Washington societies were organized in many places, functioning to some extent as auxiliaries of the Washingtonian societies, but also engaged in the actual rehabilitation of alcoholic women. In the annual Report of 1843, there is this reference"...the Martha Washington Societies, feeding the poor, clothing the naked, and reclaiming the intemperate of their own sex, have been maintained, in most places, with great spirit..."(7). IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5541. . . . . . . . . . . . Part 2 of 3: Maxwell on the Washingtonians From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/24/2009 12:40:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: James Blair (jblair at videotron.ca) Part 2 of 3: Milton A. Maxwell, "The Washingtonian Movement" ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ DURATION OF THE MOVEMENT How long the Washingtonian movement continued in full force is a difficult question to answer. The most dramatic strides were made between the summers of 1841 and 1842, but apparently the peak of activity was reached in 1843. That year, Gough was touring New England, and Hawkins northern and western New York as well as sections of Vermont, New Hampshire and Maine. R.P. Taylor was doing effective work in Georgia. Late that autumn Hawkins campaigned in North Carolina and Georgia, stimulating great Washingtonian activity in that region. It was a year of high activity, with the major portion of the work carried on, as it was through most of the life of the movement, by numerous Washingtonians whose names are unrecorded. On May 28,1844, in Boston, the Washingtonians were the sponsors of , and leading participants in, the largest temperance demonstration ever held, up to that time, with nearly 30,000 members of various temperance organizations participating. Governor George N. Briggs, William K. Mitchell and John B. Gough were the leading speakers. In the fall of 1845 Hawkins began one of his most intensive campaigns, in Ohio, Indiana and Illinois, winding up in the spring of 1846 with very successful meetings in New Orleans and Mobile. During this 8-month period Hawkins not only spoke daily but also directed the work of many assistants and helped, as he always did, to organize societies to continue the work. In much of the territory covered by Hawkins on this campaign the Washingtonian movement was still at full tide in 1845 and 1846. This tends to corroborate the generalization of Wooley and Johnson that "for four years it continued to sweep the country." But in some of the cities which had been reached by the movement in 1841, a decline had already set in. In New York City the Sons of Temperance, a total abstinence order which had been founded with the help and blessing of Washingtonians, had begun, late in 1842, to receive into its membership many Washingtonians. Slowly but increasingly it displaced the function of the Washington societies. In Cincinnati, in January 1845, Lyman Beecher wrote to John Marsh about the "resurgence of the liquor tide" and of the need for a new type of temperance appeal. He thought that "though the Washingtonians have endured and worked well, their thunder is worn out"(13). Fehlandt (4) states that "By 1843...interest began to wane, and soon Washingtonianism had spent its force." It might be correct to say that the first signs of waning interest appeared in 1843 but it is not probable that such signs were detectable in most areas before 1844 - and in some areas not until latter. Hence, no generalization seems to apply to the entire country. Most significant as an index of general interest are the references to the Washingtonian movement in the annual Reports of the executive committee of the American Temperance Union, published in May of each year. The 1842 Report enthusiastically details the spread of the movement. The 1843 Report reflects continued enthusiasm. The 1844 Report notes that the movement "has continued through its fourth year with as much interest as could be expected." The 1845 Report contains news of the crowded weekly meetings and increased success of the Hartford, Conn., Washington Temperance Society, but there is also expressed the feeling of John Marsh that the movement "has in a considerable measure spent its force." In the 1846 Report the movement is referred to as "once so deeply enlisting the sympathies." In the 1847 Report it is admitted that "The reformation of drunkards has not, as in former years, formed a prominent part of the year now past." The 1848 Report contains no mention of the Washingtonian movement at all. Hawkins, Gough and others were called Washingtonians to the end of their lives, but there is no record, to the writer's knowledge, of organized Washingtonian activity beyond 1847 except in the Boston area.*3* There in March 1847, the Washingtonians of New England held a large convention. In January 1848 the Boston Washington Society reported having 56,380 signatures since the date of its founding in 1841. According to Harrison (8), writing in 1860, the Boston society continued to exist and meet weekly up to 1860, at which time 70,000 signatures were claimed. In 1858 the Home for the Fallen, using Washingtonian principles in the rehabilitation of alcoholics, was in existence in Boston.*4* But in other parts of the country, by 1858, there were to be found references to "the early days" when Washingtonianism swept the country. ______________________________ *3* The writer has since learned of the existence of the Washingtonian Home in Chicago, founded in 1863 by members of the Order of Good Templars who may well have been Washingtonians. This institution is still engaged exclusively in the rehabilitation of alcoholics. *4* This institution has been in continuous existence to the present time, having undergone a number of changes in name and in policy. It is now known as the Washington Hospital and engages in the treatment of alcoholism by contemporary medical and social techniques. ______________________________ NUMERICAL SUCCESS How many persons became members of the Washingtonian societies? There is no satisfactory answer to this question. The statistics that are available are varied, contradictory and, hence, unreliable; furthermore, they are given on two different bases - the number who signed the total abstinence pledge, and the number of drunkards reclaimed. Neither of these coincides with the membership of Washingtonian societies. Several sources(12,14) repeat the American Temperance Union estimate (7) that by 1843, 5,000,000 had signed the total abstinence pledge and were associated with over 10,000 local societies. Since only 350,000 such signers had been claimed in 1839 (15), this would mean a gain of over 4,500,000 as a result of the Washingtonian "pledge-signing revival." This would represent nearly one-fourth of the total U.S. population aged 15 years and over. When it is considered, as E.M. Jellinek has estimated, that for the population aged 15 years and older the per capita consumption of distilled spirits decreased by only 14.3 per cent (form 4.9 gallons) between 1840 and 1850, some doubt is thrown upon the validity of this estimate. Marsh himself, in 1848, revised his estimate of total abstainers downward to 4,000,000 (7). Even this number points to the probability that a large percentage of the pledge signers were under the age of 15. Furthermore, since the signers belonged to all kinds of temperance societies, it is impossible to estimate what percentage, or how many, were enrolled in Washingtonian societies. In attempting to estimate the number of alcoholics reclaimed by the Washingtonian movement, more difficulties are encountered. The major one is the fact that all the societies had mixed memberships - former teetotallers (often children), moderate drinkers, excessive drinkers, and confirmed alcoholics. Nevertheless, estimates have been made and the claims vary from 100,000 (12) to 600,000. The latter figure, often repeated, seems to be based on the 1843 Report (7) of the American Temperance Union, in which it stated that: "A half-million hard drinkers often drunken, and a hundred thousand sots...may safely be considered as having been brought to sign the total abstinence pledge within the last two years." Wooley and Johnson (12) state: "It is commonly computed that at least one hundred thousand common drunkards were reclaimed in the crusade and at least three times as many common tipplers became total abstainers." This seems to be based on Eddy (14), who in turn seems to be quoting an American Temperance Union estimate that, by the summer of 1842, "the reformation had included at least 100,000 common drunkards, and three times that number of tipplers who were in a fair way to become sots." One chief difficulty resides in the employment of an undefined terminology, including "hard drinkers often drunken;" "confirmed drinkers;" "drunkard;" "common drunkard;" "conformed drunkard;" "inebriate;" "sot;" "tippler;" "common tippler;" and "tipplers in a fair way to become sots." What do these terms mean and how were they distinguished from each other? Ignoring the loose use of these terms, for the moment, and turning to the percentage of reclaimed inebriates in Washingtoniansocieties, a great variety of claims is to be noted. Eight months after its beginning the Baltimore society claimed that two-thirds of their 300 members were reclaimed drunkards(9). At the close of 1841 it was claimed that 100,000 pledges had been taken as a result of Washingtonian activity, "more than one-third by confirmed drinkers"(16). But in the statistics offered by the same source, and for the same period of time, by the vigorous Cincinnati Washington society, only 900 (11.3 per cent) of the 8,000 members were said to have been reformed drunkards. A Battleboro, Vt., report stated: "We have 150 members already in our Washington Society, six or seven hard cases." This comes to four or five per cent. Of the 42,273 pledged members in 82 Vermont towns cited in the 1844 Report, only 518 (1.2 per cent) were reformed drunkards probably varied greatly from community to community - and probably varied at different times even in the same society. Since the American Temperance Union records are the chief source of information for later historians, some weight may be given to John Marsh's later estimate (13) that 150,000 drunkards were permanently rescued as a result of Washingtonian activity. But when his 1843 estimate of "A half million hard drinkers often drunken, and a hundred thousand sots" is recalled, it is impossible not to be suspicious of his estimates - and particularly of his use of terms. The number may well have been less than 150,000, and it may well have included everything from "confirmed drinkers," to "hard drinkers often drunken" to "common drunkards" to "sots." What are the numbers of true alcoholics was, is anyone's guess. But if there is uncertainty concerning the number of alcoholics temporarily helped or permanently rehabilitated - or the number of persons who became total abstainers - there is no question that the movement made a tremendous impact. Its results, furthermore, were not short-lived. Within the temperance there was not only a decided gain of strength but also the opening of "the way for more advanced thought and effort...(14)." As for the problem of alcoholism, some permanent though limited gain resulted. Dr. T.D. Crothers, a leading psychiatrist of his time, wrote in 1911: The Washingtonian movement...was a great clearing house movement, breaking up old theories and giving new ideas of the nature and character of inebriety. It was literally a sudden and intense projection of the ideas of the moral side of inebriety, into public thought, and while it reacted when the reform wave died out, it served to mobilize and concentrate public attention upon the question, of how far the inebriate could control his malady, and what efforts were needed to enable him to live temperately. This first practical effort to settle these questions was the beginning of the organization of lodging houses for the members of the societies who had failed to carry out the pledges which they had made. This was really the beginning of the hospital system of cure, and was the first means used to give practical help to the inebriate, in a proper home, with protection, until he was able to go out, with a degree of health and hope of restoration (17). ORGANIZATION AND PROCEDURE As has been indicated, the Washingtonian movement took organized form in the thousands of local total abstinence societies which, almost without exception, had a mixed membership of former teetotallers and moderate drinkers as well as inebriates of various degrees. This was the pattern set by the original Baltimore society. A large percentage of these societies, presumably, were new societies carrying the Washington name. Many were old societies, reorganized and renamed. But often the work was carried on in societies already in existence, without any change in name. Hawkins, it will be recalled, became the paid secretary of the Massachusetts Temperance Society. Nevertheless, he was active in the Boston Washington society. There seemed, at the time, to be no organizational rivalry, and that must have been true in many communities throughout the years of the movement. In Alabama, Sellers (18) states, "This organization [Washingtonian] was never an independent unit, but was attached to temperance societies already existing." On the other hand, rivalry and mutual resentment between the "old" and the "new" societies did develop in many communities. Even in Boston, in the demonstration in which so many societies of all types participated in May 1844, the old Massachusetts Temperance Society and the old Massachusetts Temperance Union did not take part (1). Krout summarizes the difficulties that developed between the Washingtonians and the older societies in many communities: Under the compulsion of popular demand many of the old societies had employed Washingtonian speakers to revive a waning interest, but they had been disappointed that the new pledge-signers could seldom be persuaded to join existing organizations. Wherever Washingtonian workers conducted campaigns, it was necessary either to form a new society officered by reform men, or to convert the old group into a Washingtonian abstinence society. To some who had laboured long in temperance work...it appeared...that the Washingtonians had no interest in the triumphs of the struggle prior to 1840. The younger movement seemed to be unwilling to learn anything from the older. Its membership scoffed at the methods and principles formerly held in esteem...The old leaders were being set aside. Any Tom, Dick or Harry could direct the course of the reform. Washingtonian "Heralds," "Standards" and "Advocates" were springing up everywhere, and then expiring from lack of funds. Their existence was too often marked by unpleasant controversies with other temperance periodicals. The Washingtonians, on the other hand, charged that the older societies refused to co-operate with them...(1). Further evidence of this distrust and cleavage, as well as of the differences in organization, was given in the Washingtonian Pocket Companion (19), published in Utica, N.Y., in 1842: Some societies make uniting with them, a virtual renunciation of all membership with any other temperance societies...This is because the principles of the old, and of our societies, differ so widely - and also to prevent the old societies from subverting ours... Some societies take none but those who have lately made, sold, or used intoxicating liquors - others receive all except children under a certain age - others receive even children with the consent of their parents or guardians. Some societies omit that part of the pledge which relates to the "Making and selling, directly or indirectly," and pledge to total abstinence from using, only. They think it a benefit to bring the maker and vender into the society first, and then induce them to give up their business. In some cases, the female members of our societies act as a Benevolent Society, within, or in co-operation and fellowship with us. In others, the ladies form separate and distinct societies. Their names are numerous...(19). Even though no uniformity of organization or procedure prevailed, yet a minimum of common pattern ran throughout the movement. This might be said to be (A) the reclamation of inebriates by "reformed drunkards" - employing the "principle of love" and the total abstinence pledge; and (B) having reformed drunkards telling their experiences for the dual purpose of reaching the drunkard and winning others to the total abstinence pledge. The Baltimore pattern, very effectively reproduced in Boston under the guidance of Hawkins, seemed to have been the ideal pattern which the majority of Washingtonian groups approximated in varying degrees. Since records of the Boston operations have been preserved, the organization and procedure of that society will be given in some detail. The aggressive missionary work of carrying Washingtonianism into 160 New England towns during the first 3 months of the Boston society's existence has been noted. Of even greater interest are the details of the work with alcoholics, during this same period, as related by Samuel F. Holbrook, the first president of the society: The Washington Total Abstinence Society was organized on the 25th of April, 1841. On the evening of its formation the officers elected were a president, two vice-presidents, a corresponding secretary, and a treasurer; after which there were chosen twenty-four gentlemen to serve as ward committee, whose duty it was to pick up inebriates, induce them to sign the pledge of total abstinence, and forsake all places where intoxicating drink was to be had, and also to visit the families of the reformed and administer to their wants. It now became necessary to have a place exclusively our own, where we could bring the unfortunate victim of intemperance, nurse him, and converse with him, and obtain his signature to the pledge;...[We] were led to Marlboro Chapel. We obtained Hall No. 1 for a business and occasional lecture room, and the chapel for a public meeting once a week. Hall No. 1 was furnished with newspapers from various towns, as well as nearly all the publications of our own city. A table prepared, and the seats were arranged in the form of a reading room; a fountain of cold water and a desk containing the pledge occupied another part of the room. Our pledge, for the first week, had two hundred and eighteen names; and then, as if by magic, the work commenced. And I think it is doubtful if in the annals of history there is any record of a work of such a nature and progressing with so much silence, and yet so sure in its advance. Surely it is the work of the omnipotent God... The gentlemen acting as ward committees were filled with unexampled zeal and perseverance in the performance of their duties; leaving their own business in order to hunt up the drunkard;...So attentive were they to this voluntary duty that in a fortnight we had four hundred names on our pledge; families in all directions were assisted, children sent to school decently clad, employment obtained for the husband, the countenance of the wife assumed a cheerful and pleasing aspect; landlords grew easy, and in fact everything relating to the circumstances of the reformed inebriate had undergone a complete change for the better... The reeling drunkard is met in the street, or drawn out from some old filthy shed, taken by the arm, spoken kindly to, invited to the hall, and with reluctance dragged there, or carried in a carriage if not too filthy; and there he sees himself surrounded by friends, and not what he most feared - police officers; everyone takes him by the hand; he begins to come to and when sober sign the pledge, and goes away a reformed man. And it does not end there. The man takes a pledge, and from his bottle companions obtains a number of signers, who likewise become sober men. Positively, these are facts. Now, can any human agency alone do this? All will answer No; for we have invariably the testimony of vast numbers of reformed men, who have spoken in public and declared they have broken off a number of times, but have as often relapsed again: and the reason they give for doing this is that they rely wholly on the strength of their resolution without looking any higher; but now they feel the need of God's assistance, which having obtained, their reform is genuine...(8). Holbrook also made some interesting comparisons with the attitudes and methods of the older temperance societies: ...As for reclaiming the drunkard, that was entirely out of the question; they must and will die shortly, and now our business is to take care of the rising generation. And when the hard working women complained of her drunken husband, the reply was, and from all feeling of good, to, O send him to the house of correction, or poor house, immediately, and then we will do what we can for you and your children. Now the great difficulty was that our temperance friends were, generally, men in higher circles of life, who would revolt at the idea of taking a drunkard by the arm in the street and walk with him to some place where he could be made sober and receive friendly advice. If the drunken man was noticed at all, he was taken aside from under the horses' feet, and perhaps put into some house and there left...But the method of reclaiming the apparently lost inebriate, such as the Washington Total Abstinence Society has adopted, never entered their heads; it was not thought of until our society was formed. Then some twenty or thirty drunkards came forward and signed the total abstinence pledge and related their experience, and this induced others to do the same; and then the work of reform commenced in good earnest(8). The "Auditor's Report" contains additional information on the activities of the Boston society during its first 3 months. After reporting the receipt of $2,537.10, one barrel of pork, four hams, and a considerable quantity of second-hand clothing, he referred to the system they had adopted "of boarding out single persons and assisting the inebriate and his family who had homes." In addition to not less than one hundred and fifty persons boarded out [in "three good boarding-houses, kept by discreet members of the society"], two hundred and fifty families have been more or less benefited. Families the most wretched have been made comfortable; by our exertions many families that were scattered have been reunited; fathers, sons, and brothers have been taken from the houses of correction and industry, from the dram shops, and from the lowest places of degradation, restored and brought back again under the same roof, made happy, industrious, and temperate...Our society at present numbers about 4,000 members...[about] one third...heads of families...(8). Harrisson rounds out the first 2 years' history of the Boston society: For the space of two years after its organization the meetings of the society were held in Marlboro' Chappel, while the lodging rooms connected therewith were located in Graphic Court, opposite Franklin Street. From there they removed to No. 75 Court Street...They also fitted up rooms under their hall for the temporary accommodations of reformed, or rather, reforming men. They soon again removed to rooms which they procured and fitted up in Broomfield Street... During the first two years of its existence the officers and members of the society held weekly meetings in six different localities in the city of Boston, namely: in North Bennett Street, Milton Street, Washington Place, East Street, Common Street, and Hull Street...(8). Another glimpse of the activities of this society, 4 years after its founding, is provided in a memorial petition presented to the State Legislature in 1845: ....From the period of its formation to the present time, it has sustained a commodious hall for holding public meetings...Large numbers of persons, in various stages of intoxication and destitution, who have been found in the streets and elsewhere, have been led to the Washingtonian Hall, where they have been kindly received, and their necessary wants supplied. The amount of service which has been rendered within the last four years, by this society, cannot be readily appreciated. A multitude of men who, by intemperance, had been shut out from the friendly regard of the world, found in the hall of the Washingtonians, for the time being, a comfortable asylum; and these men departed thence to resume their position as useful citizens. About 750 such persons have found a temporary home at Washingtonian Hall, during the year just closed, nearly all of whom, it is believed, are now temperate and industrious members of society(8). 4 As already noted, this society reported having received 56,380 members up to January 1848. According to Harrisson, the central meetings were held each week uninterrupted at least to 1860. Whether an "Asylum" for inebriates was maintained during the intervening years, the writer cannot ascertain. But in 1858 a "home for the Fallen," representing perhaps a renewal of activities, was being maintained on Franklin Place. It was moved to 36 Charles Street in 1860 and renamed the "Washington Home." Conducted by a separate "executive committee," it nevertheless was operating on Washingtonian principles. So much for the Boston society. Apparently Hawkins and his associates had laid a more sound foundation than was achieved in many communities. As for organization and procedures elsewhere, perhaps the best clues are given in the 1842 Washingtonian Pocket Companion (19), "Containing a Choice Collection of Temperance Hymns, Songs, Etc.," - containing also the following directions "For Commencing, Organizing, and Conducting the Meetings, of a Washingtonian Total Abstinence Society." I. The Commencement.- Wherever there are a sufficient number of drinkers, to get up what is commonly called "a spree," there are enough to form a Society. It only needs one or more individuals, (If an inebriate, or moderate drinker, but resolved to reform, all the better,) to go to those persons, and to others who make, sell or use intoxicating drinks and explain to them the principles and measures of this great reform, and persuade them to agree to take the pledge at a meeting to be held at some convenient time and place mutually agreed on. In all these efforts, the utmost gentleness, and kindness, and patient perseverance, and warm persuasion, should be used. At the meetings, appoint a Chairman and a Secretary - if reformed inebriates, all the better. After singing a hymn or song, let the Chairman, or other person, open the meeting by stating its objectives - relating his experience in drinking, his past feelings, sufferings, the woe of his family and friends, the motives and reasons that induce him to take the present step, and appeal warmly and kindly to his companions, friends and neighbours to aid him in it by doing likewise. The Secretary, or other person may follow with a like experience...Other persons can be called on to speak, until it is time to get signers to the pledge. Having read the pledge...invite all who wish to join to rise up, (or come forward,) and call out their names that the Secretary may take them down. Publicity and freedom are preferable to private solicitations, whisperings, and secrecy in giving the names...Then let the Chairman or other person, first pledge himself, and then administer it to the rest. After this, a hymn or song may be sung, and remarks and appeals be made, and other names be obtained. After all have been obtained to take the pledge, let them again rise up, and let the Chairman, or Secretary, or other person, give them THE CHARGE - a solemn address on the nature and importance of the obligations they have assumed and on the best mode of faithfully discharging them. Then let a committee be appointed to draft a Constitution to be presented at the next meeting. II. THE ORGANIZATION. - At the next meeting, after singing, let the Constitution be reported, and amended, if necessary, until it suits those who have taken the pledge at and since the last meeting. Then adopt it. It should contain the following, among the needed provisions. Preamble - A simple statement of the prominent evils of intemperance, and of the resolution of the signers to aid in extirpating their root. Some prefer a Parody on our National Declaration of Independence for this purpose. Article 1 - The name of the Society, always using the distinctive title, "Washingtonian," in that name. Article 2 - Declaring that love, Kindness and moral suasion are your only principles and measures, and disavowing denunciation, abuse, and harshness. Article 3 - Forbid the introduction of sectarian sentiments or party politics into any lecture, speeches, singing, or doings of the society. Article 4 - Providing for offices, committees, and their election. Articles 5,6, and 7 - Duties of officers and committees. (One of these should be a committee to relieve the poor, sick and afflicted members and families of inebriates.) Article 8 - Provide for by-laws, and alterations of the Constitution. Article 9 - Provide for labours with those who violate their pledges, and the withdrawal of members... III. HOW to CONDUCT the MEETINGS. - After the meeting has come to order, always open with a hymn or song. Transact the business of the society with the utmost order and dispatch....Then call for speakers. Let there be as many "experiences" as possible, interspersed with brief arguments, appeals, exhortations, news of the progress of the cause, temperance anecdotes, &c. Consult brevity, so as to have as many of the brethren speak, as possible - the more the better....And always be sure to call for persons to take the pledge, when the audience feel in the right spirit. While the pledges are being filled up for delivery, pour out the warmest appeals, or sing the most interesting hymns or songs. If any member or other person violates the rules or order, or transgresses the principles and measures of the society, remind him of it in good humour, gently and kindly...KINDNESS must be the very atmosphere of your meetings, and LOVE the fuel of all your zeal, and PERSUASION the force of all your speaking, if you would have your society do the most good...(19). Even more revealing is the definition, contained in the same Pocket Companion, of the principles of the Washingtonian movement in terms of its differences from the older societies. I. All the former Societies directed their efforts mainly, if not wholly to the prevention of intemperance. "Washingtonianism," while it embraces all classes, sexes, ages and conditions of society in its efforts, makes special efforts to snatch the poor inebriate from his destructive habits - aims to cure as well as prevent intemperance. It considers the drunkard as a man - our brother - capable of being touched by kindness, of appreciating our love, and benefiting by our labours. We therefore, stoop down to him in his fallen condition and kindly raise him up, and whisper hope and encouragement into his ear, and aid him to aid himself back again to health, peace, usefulness, respectability and prosperity. By the agency of SISTERS in this labour, we endeavour to secure the co-operation of his family in our effort... II. Other societies, generally were auxiliary to a Country - that to a State - and that to a National Society... "Washingtonianism"...[makes] each society independent... III. Before the Washingtonian Reform, not only the poor drunkard, but many of nearly every other class in society supposed to be in the way of the [temperance] cause, were denounced as enemies - held up to public indignation and reprobation, threatened with the withdrawal of votes, pecuniary support, or public countenance;... "Washingtonianism" teaches us to avoid this course...We believe with the American Prison Discipline Society, that "there is a chord, even in the most corrupt heart, that vibrates to kindness, and a sense of justice, which knows when it has been rightly dealt with." We have tried kindness with the poor inebriate of many years continuance - we have found it powerful to overcome the induration of heart caused by eight years of the world's contempt...Hence we adopt the law of kindness - the godlike principle, "Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good," in our labours to win the maker, seller and user of intoxicating liquors; and we disavow all compulsions, threats, denunciations, hard names,...or malice or ill-will toward them...In short, "Moral suasion, not force - love not hate, are the moving springs in the Washingtonian Creed" (19). The hymns and songs contained in this Pocket Companion are likewise revealing. Most of them are simply adapted Christian hymns and temperance songs, appealing basically to religious and patriotic sentiments. In the preface it is frankly stated that only such hymns and songs have been included which introduce no "sectarianism, party politics, denunciation or harshness," or which contain no "phrases and sentiments which all Christians could not conscientiously sing." The central emphasis is probably contained in the following hymn on the "Power of Love." Love is the strongest tie Love softens all our toil, That can our hearts unite; And makes our labours blest; Love brings to life and liberty It lights again the joyful smile, The drunkard chained in night And gives the anguished rest. Obeying its commands, Let love forever grow, We quickly supply each need; Intemp'rance drive afar, With feeling hearts and tender hands A heaven begin on earth below Bind up his wounds that bleed. And banish strife and war. The principle of love and sympathy for the drunkard is, in countless references, considered to be the distinctively new feature introduced by the Washingtonians - and their central principle. John B. Gough attributed the success of the movement to "the true spirit of Washingtonian sympathy, kindness and charity...predominant in the bosom of this great Washingtonian Fraternity"(11). Walter Channing, Unitarian Clergyman, in underscoring this principle, also calls attention to the other distinctive feature of the Washingtonian movement - the role played by the "reformed drunkards" themselves: It was wholly new, both in its principles and its agents. It laid aside law and punishment, and made love, the new commandment, its own. It dared to look upon moral power as sufficient for the work of human regeneration - the living moral power in the drunkard, however degraded he might be. It had faith in man...[and so] the drunkard became a moral teacher... he rose from the lowest depths of degradation, and became an apostle of the highest sentiment in his nature; viz., the love of man, the acknowledgment of the inborn dignity of man (9). THE CAUSES OF DECLINE The materials presented above would scarcely give the impression that the major cause of the decline of the Washingtonian movement was its lack, and opposition to, religion. Yet that charge gained currency and has been perpetuated in later temperance writings. For example, Daniels, in 1877, wrote that "...this effort to divorce temperance from religion was the chief weakness of the Washingtonian movement(20)." Actually, the charge seems to be based upon the generalization and misinterpretation of certain real difficulties that did develop, in places, between the Washingtonians and the churches - and upon the views of a few extremists. A major source of information about the Washingtonian movement available to later historians were the publications of the American Temperance Movement, edited by John Marsh. In 1842 Marsh did become concerned about the attitudes of some of the Washingtonians: "A lack of readiness on their part to acknowledge their dependence on God, no small desecration of the Sabbath, and a painful unwillingness, in not a few professed Christians, to connect the temperance cause...with religion(13)." It must be recalled that Marsh was the earliest and most ardent promoter of the Washington movement. He had a genuine interest in the reformation of drunkards, but his greatest interest was the promotion of the temperance cause. Above all, Marsh wanted to establish the identification of temperance with religion and to obtain the support of all church members. When the behaviour of some of the Washingtonians threatened to antagonize some of the church people against the temperance cause, Marsh did his best in his writings to counteract the threatening trends in the Washingtonian movement. Later historians seemed to overlook the fact that Marsh was addressing himself to minority manifestations - and that Marsh succeeded to a considerable extent in countering these trends. When, in the summer of 1844, Marsh sponsored and accompanied John B. Gough on a tour through New York State, he was pleased with the fact that Gough was able to speak in many churches - "even upperclass churches." On this improved rapport with the churches, Marsh commented: The open infidelity, and radicalism, and abuse of ministers, by some reform-speakers had kindled up in many minds an opposition to all temperance effort, especially on the Sabbath; but Mr. Gough took such decided ground on religion, as the basis of all temperance, and the great security and hope of the reformed, as entirely reconciled them, not only to the meetings, but to his occupying the pulpit on the Sabbath (13). The causes and coolness and even hostility between some of the Washingtonians and some of the churches lay on both sides. For one thing, many Washingtonians felt that their movement represented a purer form of Christianity than was to be found in the churches. In fact, their chief criticism of churches was on this score and did not stem out of antireligious beliefs. They felt that they were living the principles which the churches talked about. This was expressed, for example, in the following hymn stanza: When Jesus, our Redeemer, came To teach us in his Father's name, In every act, in every thought He lived the precepts which he taught (19). Washingtonians, furthermore, we often critical of the unhealthy other - worldliness prevalent in many churches: This world's not all a fleeting show, For a man's illusion given; He that hath sooth'd a drunkard's woe, And led him to reform, doth know, There's something here of heaven. The Washingtonian that hath run The path of kindness even; Who's measr'd out life's little span, In deeds of love to God and man, On earth has tasted heaven (19). IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5542. . . . . . . . . . . . Part 3 of 3: Maxwell on the Washingtonians From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/24/2009 12:41:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: James Blair (jblair at videotron.ca) Part 3 of 3: Milton A. Maxwell, "The Washingtonian Movement" ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ A number of factors led some of the churches to close their doors to the Washingtonians. Class snobbishness was one of these - a fact which particularly riled the lower class Washingtonians in those communities. Dacus (21) points out that the vanity of some of the ministers may have led them to disdain the movement, since they were neither its originators nor its leaders. Dacus certainly is right that many of the ministers of that day held narrow views that made them unsympathetic to Washingtonian principles. The most striking example of this is the argument of the Rev. Hiram Mattison, Minister of the Methodist Episcopal Church of Watertown, N.Y. as stated in a tract published in 1844: FIRST - No Christian is at liberty to select or adopt any general system, organization, agencies or means, for the moral reformation of mankind, except those prescribed and recognized by Jesus Christ. But, SECONDLY - Christ has designated his Church as his chosen organization; his Ministers as his chosen ambassadors or public teachers; and his Gospel as the system of truth and motives by which to reform mankind, Nor has he prescribed any other means. Therefore, THIRDLY - All voluntary organizations and societies, for the suppression of particular vices, and the promotion of particular virtues, being invented by a man without a divine model or command, and proceeding upon principles and employing agencies, means and motives nor recognized in the Gospel, are incompatible with the plan ordained of Heaven, and consequently superfluous, inexpedient and dangerous (14). Mr. Mattison's views, however, were not shared by many of the clergymen; nor were the majority of the churches at odds with the Washingtonians. Almost all "General Conventions of the Protestant Churches endorsed and encouraged the movement (14)." The writer agrees with Eddy (14) that, except for the attitudes of a few extremists, "Washingtonianism was not an irreligious movement." The reasons for its decline must lie elsewhere. The lack of adequate organization is another frequently cited cause of the decline of the movement. As Krout points out, there was no connection between the various groups that carried on the work. "Each group was allowed to follow its own course....As a result, systematic organization was impossible; uniformity in methods was never attained; and chance largely determined the formulation of principles (1)." The lack of organization was first felt, however, with regard to the needs of the newly reformed men for more social and economic support. This need was adequately met by the original Baltimore society. Certainly the Boston society was well organized to help the impoverished, to get them back on their feet, and to give them adequate social support, and this seems also to have been the case in Philadelphia and other places. But in some communities, notably in New York City, "It was felt that these men who had been so under the power of the drinking habit needed more care and fraternal fellowship than could be given by so formal a society as the Washingtonians (10)." This led to the founding, on a plan similar to that of the Rechabites in Great Britain, of the "Order of the Sons of Temperance." Actually this order was founded by a group of Washingtonians in New York City during the fall of 1842. They had noticed that although the Washingtonian movement was making rapid advance in new fields, there were already many falling away from the pledge, and they desired if possible, to hit upon some new plan of operations, some more perfect organization, one that should shield the members from temptation, and more effectually elevate and guide them....(17). It soon manifested an esprit du corps, which gathered into it a large portion of their reformed; inasmuch as, on paying a small weekly or quarterly due, they were sure of a useful remittance in case of sickness [$4.00 a week] or death [$30.00]. An impressive indication gave the order impressiveness, brotherhood, and attachment; and a regalia, a distinction from other temperance men. Soon divisions and grand divisions were found springing up in every quarter. Old temperance societies lost such of their members as were reformed men; and where there was a revival of temperance [where Washingtonianism took hold], young reformed converts were allured hither, often in large proportions....(13). The order of Sons of Temperance grew rapidly. By 1850 it had 35 Grand Divisions, 5,563 Subordinate Divisions (local societies), and 232,233 members. Eventually it became international, with a peak membership of 700,000. A later scribe of the order said that it had been brought into existence "to preserve the fruits of the Washingtonian movement." But one of its functional results was the displacement of the Washingtonian societies. This displacement of loyalties and membership was furthered by other orders. In 1845 the "Temple of Honor" was founded as a higher degree in the Order of the Sons of Temperance. Separating from its parent body in 1846, it soon spread over the United States and Canada, numbering "in its ranks thousands upon thousands of the best and most influential citizens...(8)." "The cadets of Temperance" was another order which sprang from the Sons of Temperance. Designed for youth, it also became independent. There was an order for children, the "Bands of Hope." In 1852 the largest fraternal temperance order of all, the "Independent Order of Good Templars," was founded, with a prominent Washingtonian, Nathaniel Curtis, as its first President. These orders, taking over most of the functions of the Washingtonian movement and incorporating much of the membership under another name, may be considered, from the sociological point of view, an institutional consolidation of Washingtonianism. But they also account, to a considerable extent, for the disappearance of the Washingtonian societies. The chief causes of the decline of the Washingtonian movement are to be found, however, in its relation to the general temperance movement. Its membership, its purposes, and its ideology were inextricably mixed with the membership, purposes and ideology of the temperance movement. Even the Baltimore society did not confine its membership to the reclaimed victims of alcoholism - nor did it lack an interest in the temperance movement. And, outside of Baltimore, these early "Washingtonian missionaries" were invariably sponsored by temperance organizations. When the power of the Washingtonian approach to reclaimed drunkards was demonstrated - and when it was shown that the reclaimed drunkards' experiences had the power to arouse great interest in the cause of total abstinence, the temperance leaders threw themselves behind the movement. Here was the answer to their prayers - something that would revitalize the temperance movement. The American Temperance Union and its executive secretary, John Marsh, in introducing and promoting the Washingtonians, may indeed be given "much credit for the success of the Washingtonians (12)." But in the last analysis, Marsh and others looked upon Washingtonianism as a method, and Washingtonians as the means, for "sparking" the temperance cause. That was their chief function. And it appears that this eventually became the chief interest of Washingtonian leaders themselves. Hawkins kept up the original Washingtonian emphasis of work with alcoholics for a long time, but during the last dozen years of his life (1846-58) most of his interest was centred in the larger temperance cause. John B. Gough made a similar shift in emphasis. Accordingly, then, when public interest in the distinctive Washingtonian technique of experience-relating began to wane, the interest of Marsh and other temperance leaders in Washingtonianism also declined. Lyman Beecher put it bluntly: "...their thunder is worn out. The novelty of the commonplace narrative is used up, and we cannot raise an interest..."(13). Marsh himself, from the perspective of later years, spoke of the Washingtonian period as a phase of the temperance movement, giving way to other methods. Since Washingtonianism was identified with the relating of experiences by reformed men, the displacement of this method was, to that extent, a displacement of Washingtonianism itself. Another fact which made temperance leaders lose interest in the Washingtonian movement was its identification with the "moral suasion" point of view. The temperance movement, up to the emergence of Washingtonianism, was not characterized by advocacy of legal action to attain its ends. Some of the leaders, however, had begun to voice the desirability of such action; the issue was in the air. The success of the Washingtonian method of love and kindness in dealing with alcoholics convinced many Washingtonians and others that this was also the method to use with the makers and sellers of liquor. William K. Mitchell, leader of the Baltimore group but also influential throughout the country, was particularly insistent that Washingtonians ...should have nothing to say against the traffic or the men engaged in it. He would have no pledge even, against engaging in the manufacture or traffic in liquors; nor did he counsel reformed men to avoid liquor-sellers' society or places of business. He would even admit men to membership in his societies who were engaged in the traffic (14). Many of the Baltimore missionaries must have felt the same way and must have advocated this idea wherever they went. Just as Washingtonian experience "proved" the soundness of total abstinence, so Washingtonian experience "proved" the validity of moral suasion. It was as simple as that, in the minds of many, and was so expressed in a resolution presented at the Massachusetts State Washingtonian Convention on May 26, 1842: RESOLVED, That the unparalleled success of the Washingtonian movement in reforming the drunkard, and inducing the retailer to cease his unholy traffic, affords conclusive evidence that moral suasion is the only true and proper basis of action in the temperance cause....(9). Even at that date, Hawkins and a few others objected and had the resolution modified on the grounds that moral suasion was an inadequate technique for the dealing with "unprincipled dealers," and that the aid of the law was necessary. Hawkins' view, however, was not shared by most Washingtonians. Marsh once referred to Hawkins thus: "Though a Washingtonian, he was a strong prohibitionist (13)." John B. Gough, because of his later advocacy of prohibitory legislation, was accused of not being a Washingtonian. When the general temperance sentiment began to favour legal action, Washingtonian policy was dated and opposed. For a time, many temperance leaders hardly knew whether to regard the Washingtonians as friends or enemies. Senator Henry William Blair of New Hampshire, in 1888, referred back to this emphasis of the Washingtonians on moral suasion as "a trace of maudlin insanity," - because of which the temperance movement was left in a state worse than before, and as a consequence of which "we have ever since been combating the absurd theory, which is the favourite fortress of the liquor dealers, that evil is increased because it is prohibited by law (22)." When the relating of experiences began to pall, and when moral suasion was no longer desired, there was nothing left to Washingtonia nism, ideologically, except the reclaiming of drunkards. This, however, became an increasingly secondary interest of those whose primary interest was the furtherance of the temperance cause - and, without the telling of experiences, without the work of alcoholics with alcoholics, and without certain other emotional by-products of Washingtonian groups and activities, this became an increasingly difficult thing to do. And, as fewer and fewer men were reclaimed, the last distinctive feature of the Washingtonian movement dropped out of sight. A review of various accounts of the Washingtonian movement makes it clear that the movement turned into something which it did not start out to be - a revival phase of the organized temperance movement. There are frequent references to the movement as "a pledging revival," "a revival campaign," "a temperance revival." The net result was a tremendous strengthening of total abstinence sentiment and the actual enlistment of new millions in the temperance cause. But the original purpose of rehabilitating alcoholics was lost to sight. Nor would it be proper to blame the temperance movement for exploiting the Washingtonians. As E.M. Jellinek5 has pointed out, the Washingtonian movement was not equipped with an ideology distinctive enough to prevent its dissolution.5 Personal communication. With this background, it becomes possible to make a comparison between the Washingtonian movement and Alcoholics Anonymous. COMPARISON WITH ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS It is apparent that the Washingtonian societies, when they were most effective in the rehabilitation of alcoholics, had a great many similarities to Alcoholics Anonymous. These similarities might be listed as follows: 1. Alcoholics helping each other. 2. The needs and interests of alcoholics kept central, despite mixed membership, by predominance of numbers, control,or the enthusiasm of the movement. 3. Weekly meetings. 4. The sharing of experiences. 5. The fellowship of the group or its members constantly available. 6. A reliance upon the power of God. 7. Total abstinence from alcohol. Most Washingtonian groups probably failed to meet this ideal program, or to maintain it for long. Even in itemizing the ideal program, some of the differences between the Washingtonian groups and Alcoholics Anonymous stand out. The admission of nonalcoholics as members and the incorporation of the "temperance" purpose - the inducement of total abstinence in nonalcoholics - are the most striking differences. Furthermore, at their best, the Washingtonian groups possessed no understanding of alcoholism other than the possibility of recovery through love and sympathy. Their approach to the problem of alcoholism and alcohol was moralistic rather than psychological or therapeutic. They possessed no program for personality change. The group had no resource of ideas to help them rise above the ideational content locally possessed. Except for their program of mutual aid they had no pattern of organization or activity different from existing patterns. There was far too great a reliance upon the pledge, and not enough appreciation of other elements in their program. Work with other alcoholics was not required, nor was the therapeutic value of this work explicitly recognized. There was no anonymity to keep the public from becoming aware of broken pledges, or to keep individuals from exploiting the movement for prestige and fame. Finally, there was not enough understanding of their own therapeutic program to formulate it and thus help the new groups to establish themselves on a sound and somewhat uniform basis. The differences can be brought out more clearly by a more detailed, comparative analysis of the Alcoholics Anonymous program - its principles, practices and content. 1. Exclusively alcoholic membership.- There are many therapeutic values in the cohesiveness and solidarity which a group with a common problem can achieve. But in the light of the Washingtonian experience, the greatest long-run value of an exclusively alcoholic membership is that it permits and reinforces exclusive attention to the rehabilitation of alcoholics. 2. Singleness of purpose.- As stated in the masthead of an organizational publication (23), Alcoholics Anonymous "is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization or institution; does not wish to engage in any controversy, neither endorses nor opposes any causes. Our primary purpose is to stay sober and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety." Nothing can divide groups more quickly - and certainly destroy the therapeutic atmosphere effectively - than religious and political controversy. Strong efforts were made in the Washingtonian movement to minimize sectarian, theological and political differences, but the movement did not avoid attracting to itself the hostile emotions generated by these conflicts. Even if it had been more successful in this regard, it was still caught in all the controversy to which the temperance cause had become liable. Not only that, but within the temperance movement itself it eventually became stranded on the issue of moral suasion versus legal action. In the light of this experience, the position of Alcoholics Anonymous stands in decided and hopeful contrast. In refusing to endorse or oppose causes, and particularly the temperance cause, A.A. is avoiding the greatest handicap which the Washingtonian movement had. Some temperance leaders may deplore that A.A. does not give them support, but they have no grounds for complaining that they are being opposed or hampered by A.A. The A.A. program also contains a happy formula for avoiding the religious or theological controversies which could easily develop even within the groups as presently constituted. This is the use of the term "Power" (greater or higher), and particularly the phrase "as we understood Him," in referring to this Power, or God. The tolerance which this phrase has supported is an invaluable asset. A further value of this single-minded concentration on the rehabilitation of alcoholics is made obvious by the Washingtonian experience. Whenever, and as long as, the Washingtonians were working hard at the reclamation of drunkards, they had notable success and the movement thrived and grew. This would support the idea that active outreach to other alcoholics is a factor in therapeutic success and, at the same time, a necessary condition for growth - and even for survival. Entirely aside from the matter of controversy, then, this singleness of A.A. purpose is a condition of continued therapeutic success and survival. 3. An adequate, clear-cut program of recovery.- Another great asset of Alcoholics Anonymous is the ideology which forms the content and context of its program of recovery, and which has received clear and attractive expression in the book Alcoholics Anonymous (24) and in other A.A. literature.This ideology incorporates the much sounder understanding of alcoholism which has been developed in recent years. It is a pragmatic blend of that which scientific research, dynamic psychology and mature religion have to offer; and through the literature of the movement, the members are kept sympathetically oriented to the developments in these fields. Accordingly, instead of viewing alcoholism with a moralistic eye on alcohol - as an evil which ought to be abandoned - A.A. sees alcoholism as an illness, symptomatic of a personality disorder. Its program is designed to get at the basic problem, that is, to bring about a change in personality. This program is simply and clearly stated in the Twelve Steps - augmented by the "24 hour program" of abstaining from alcohol, and the supporting slogans and emphases such as "First things first," "Live and let live," "Easy does it," "Keep an open mind," honesty, humility, and so forth. Great stress is also put upon regular attendance at the group meetings, which are characterized by the informal exchange of experiences and ideas and by a genuinely satisfying fellowship. Compared to the Washingtonian brand, the A.A. sharing of experiences is notably enriched by the psychological insights which have been brought into the group by A.A. literature and outside speakers. A thorough analysis and catharsis is specifically asked for in the Twelve Steps - as well as an improvement in relations to other persons. Work with other alcoholics is required, and the therapeutic value accruing to the sponsor of new members is distinctly recognized. The spiritual part of the program is more clearly and inclusively defined, more soundly based, and more frankly made an indispensable condition of recovery. It appears, furthermore, that the A.A. group activity is more satisfactory to the alcoholic than was the case in many Washingtonian societies. A.A. members seem to find all the satisfaction and values in their groups that the founders of the various orders thought were lacking in the Washingtonian groups. A decided Washingtonian weakness was its general lack of follow-through. In contrast, A.A. is particularly strong on this point, providing a potent follow-through in a group setting where self-analysis and catharsis are stimulated; where new attitudes toward alcohol, self and others are learned; where the feeling tones are modified through a new quality of relationships; where, in short, a new way of life is acquired - one which not only enables the person to interact with his environment (particularly with other persons) without the use of alcohol, but enables him to do so on a more mature, satisfying basis. No doubt a similar change occurred in many (though probably not in most) of the alcoholic Washingtonians, but it was more by a coincidence, within and without the societies, of circumstances that were rarely understood and never formulated into a definite, repeatable program. A.A. is infinitely better equipped in this respect. 4. Anonymity.- A comparison with the Washingtonian experience underscores the sheer survival value of the principle of anonymity in Alcoholics Anonymous. At the height of his popularity, John B. Gough either "slipped" or was tricked by his enemies into a drunken relapse. At any rate, the opponents of the Washingtonian movement seized upon this lapse with glee and made the most of it to hurt Gough and the movement. This must have happened frequently to less widely known but nevertheless publicly known Washingtonians. Public confidence in the movement was impaired. Anonymity protects the reputation of A.A. from public criticism not only of "slips" but also of failures, internal tensions, and all deviant behaviour. Equally important, anonymity keeps the groups from exploiting prominent names for the sake of group prestige; and it keeps individual members from exploiting their A.A. connection for personal prestige or fame. This encourages humility and the placing of principles above personalities. Such behaviour not only generates outside admiration of A.A. but has therapeutic value for the individual members. There are further therapeutic values in anonymity: it makes it easier for alcoholics to approach A.A., and it relaxes the new member. It encourages honest catharsis and utter frankness. It protects the new member from the critical eyes of certain acquaintances while he experiments with this new way of life, for fumbling and failure will be hidden. 5. Hazard-avoiding traditions.- Another decisive contrast to the Washingtonian movement is the development in Alcoholics Anonymous not only of a relatively uniform program of recovery but also of relatively uniform traditions for avoiding the usual hazards to which organizations are subject. In Alcoholics Anonymous there is actually no overhead authority. Wherever two or three alcoholics get together to attain sobriety on the general basis of the Twelve Step program they may call themselves an A.A. group. They are free to conduct their activities as they see fit. As would be expected in a fellowship of independent groups, all kinds of practices and policies have been tried. A careful reading of the A.A. publication, A.A. Tradition (25), will reveal how great the variety has been, here and there. Membership has been limited. Conduct of groups has been undemocratic. Leaders have exploited the groups for personal prestige. The principle of anonymity has been violated. Personal and jurisdictional rivalries have developed. Money, property and organizational difficulties have disrupted A.A. groups. Members and groups, yielding to their own enthusiasms and reflecting the patterns of other institutions around them, have endangered the immediate and ultimate welfare of the A.A. fellowship. These deviations could have been serious had there not existed a considerable uniformity in practice and principle. In the early days of A.A., the entire fellowship was bound together by a chain of personal relationships - all created on the basis of a common program, a common spirit and a common tradition. This spirit and this pragmatically achieved program and tradition were the only guiding principles, and relative uniformity was not difficult. Alcoholics Anonymous was just a fellowship - small, informal, poor and unpretentious. But with growth, prosperity and prestige, the difficulties of getting all groups and members to see the value of these guiding principles increased. A self-conscious statement and explanation was needed - and this finally emerged in 1947 and 1948 in the "Twelve Points of Tradition,"elaborated upon in editorials in The A.A. Grapevine (23) and subsequently published as a booklet (25). In formulating and stating the reasons for these traditions, Bill W., one of the founders, has continued the extremely valuable function which he, Dr. Bob and other national leaders have performed - that of keeping intact the experienced based program and principles of A.A. Perhaps as important as any other is the tradition of keeping authority in principles rather than letting it become vested in offices and personalities. This tradition is supported by the related principle of rotating leadership, and the concept that leaders are merely the trusted servants of the group or groups. The hazard-avoiding values of these traditions are obvious. The tradition that membership be open to any alcoholic has value in countering the tendency toward exclusiveness, class-consciousness, cliquishness - and it helps to keep the groups focussed on their main job of helping the "alcoholic who still suffers." The tradition of complete self-support of A.A. groups and activities by the voluntary contributions of A.A. members avoids the dangers inherent in fixed dues, assessments, public solicitations, and the like - and it is conducive to self-reliance and self-respect. Furthermore, in minimizing money it maximizes fellowship. The tradition that "any considerable property of genuine use to A.A. should be separately incorporated and managed" is important in keeping the A.A. groups from becoming entangled in the problems of property beyond the minimum necessary for their own functioning. The tradition of "the least possible organization" has a similar value. These last three traditions might be summed up as precautions against the common tendency to forget that money, property and organization are only means - and that means find their rightful place only when the end is kept clearly in view. For A.A., these traditions should help to keep the groups concentrated on their prime purpose: helping alcoholics recover. The existence of these traditions - and their clear formulation - are assets which the Washingtonian movement never possessed. What prognosis for Alcoholics Anonymous is suggested by this comparison with the Washingtonian movement? The least that can be said is that the short life of the Washingtonian movement simply has no parallel implications for A.A. Despite certain but limited similarities in origins, purpose and early activities, the differences are too great to draw the conclusion of a similar fate for A.A. Are the differences, then, of such a nature as to assure a long life for Alcoholics Anonymous? This much can be said with assurance of consensus: (A) In the light of our present-day knowledge, A.A. has a sounder program of recovery than the Washingtonians achieved. (B) A.A. has avoided many of the organizational hazards which plagued the Washingtonian societies. The success and growth of A.A. during more than a decade of public life, its present vigour and its present unity underscore these statements and augur well for the future. In the writer's judgment, based on a systematic study (26) of A.A., there is no inherent reason why A.A. should not enjoy an indefinitely continued existence. How long an existence will depend upon how well the leaders and members continue to follow the present program and principles - that is, how actively A.A. members will continue to reach out to other alcoholics; how thoroughly the remainder of the A.A. program will continue to be practiced, particularly the steps dealing with catharsis and the spiritual aspects; and, how closely all groups will be guided by the present traditions. Finally, the writer would suggest that the value in the traditions lies chiefly in the avoidance of factors that can easily interfere with keeping the ideal therapeutic atmosphere found in the small A.A. groups at their best. Most of the personality change necessary for recovery from alcoholism occurs in these small groups - and that work is at its very best when there is a genuinely warm, nonegocentric fellowship. How well this quality of fellowship is maintained in the small, local groups is offered, therefore, as another condition determining how bright the future of A.A. will be. Whatever the worth of these judgments, they point up the potential value to A.A. of careful, objective research on these and related conditions. This would give Alcoholics Anonymous another asset that the Washingtonians never had. REFERENCES 1. Krout,J.A. The Origins of Prohibition. New York; Knopf, 1925. 2. Rush,Benjamin. An Inquiry Into the Effects of Ardent Spirits on the Human Body and Mind. [1785] 3. Beecher, Lyman. Six Sermons On the Nature, Occasion, Signs, Evils, and Remedy of Intemper- ance. New York. American Tract Society, 1827. 4. Fehlandt, A.F. A Century of Drink Reform in the United States. Cincinnati; Jennings and Graham; and New York, Eaton & Mains, 1904. 5. Permanent Temperance Documents of the American Temperance Society; Vol.1 Boston; Seth Bliss, 1835. 6. One Hundred Years of Temperance. A Memorial Volume of the Centennial Temperance Confer ence Held in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, September, 1885. New York; National Temperance Society & Publication House, 1886. 7. Annual Reports of the Executive Committee of the American Temperance Union, 1840-1849. 8. Harrison, D. A Voice from the Washingtonian Home. Boston; Redding & Co., 1860. 9. Hawkins, W.G. Life of John W. Hawkins. Boston, Dutton, 1863. 10. Banks, L.A. The Lincoln Legion. New York; Mershon Co., 1903. 11. Gough, J.B. Autobiography and Personal Recollections. Springfield, Mass.; Bill, Nichols & Co.,1869. 12. Wooley, J. G. and Johnson, W.E. Temperance Progress in the Century. London; Linscott Publish ing Co., 1903. 13. Marsh,J. Temperance Recollections. New York; Scribner, 1866. 14. Eddy,R. Alcohol and History. New York; National Temperance Society & Publication House, 1887. 15. Cherrington, E.H. The Evolution of Prohibition in the United States of America. Westerville, Ohio; American Issue Press, 1920. 16. Cyclopedia of Temperance and Prohibition. New York; Funk & Wagnalls, 1891. 17. Crothers, T.D. Inebriety. Cincinati; Harvey, 1911. 18. Sellers,J.B. The Prohibition Movement in Alabama, 1702-1943. Chapel Hill, Univ. North Carolina Press, 1943. 19. Grosh, A.B. ed. Washingtonian Pocket Companion. Utica, N.Y., S.S. Merrell; Bennett, Backus & Hawley; & G. Tracy, 1842. 20. Daniels, W.H. The Temperance Reform and Its Great Reformers. New York; Nelson & Phillips, 1878. 21. Dacus, J.A. Battling with the Demon. St. Louis; Scammel & Co., 1878. 22. Blair, H.W. The Temperance Movement. Boston; William E. Smythe Co., 1888. 23. The A.A. Grapevine. New York; A.A. Grapevine, Inc. 24. Alcoholics Anonymous. New York; Works Publishing Co., 1939. 25. A.A. Tradition. New York; Works Publishing Co., 1947. 26. Maxwell, M.A. Social Factors in the Alcoholics Anonymous Program. Doctoral Dissertation, U. of Texas, 1949. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5543. . . . . . . . . . . . History of Royalties - Part 1 From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/23/2009 10:51:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Source references for the postings are: .. [AACOA-AA Comes of Age] -- [BW-FH-Bill W by Francis Hartigan] -- [DBGO-Dr Bob and the Good Old-timers] -- [GB-Getting Better Inside Alcoholics Anonymous by Nan R] -- [GTBT-Grateful to Have Been There by Nell Wing] -- [GSC-FR-General Service Conference-Final Report (identified by year)] -- [GSO-General Service Office-service pieces] -- [GSO-AC-General Service Office Archives Collection] -- [Gv-Grapevine-identified by month and year] -- [HIW-How It Worked by Mitchell K] -- [LOH-The Language of the Heart] -- [LR-Lois Remembers, by Lois W] -- [PIO-Pass It On, AAWS] -- SM-AA Service Manual and Twelve Concepts for World Service] -- [www-Internet] .. 1938 - September, board Trustee Frank Amos arranged a meeting between Bill W and Eugene Exman (Religious Editor of Harper Brothers publishers). Exman offered Bill a $1,500 advance ($23,000) on the rights to the book. The Alcoholic Foundation Board urged acceptance of the offer. Instead, Hank P and Bill formed Works Publishing Co. and sold stock at $25 par value ($380 today). 600 shares were issued: Hank and Bill received 200 shares each, 200 shares were sold to others. Later, 30 shares of preferred stock, at $100 par value ($1,500 today) were sold as well. To mollify the board, it was decided that the author's royalty (which would ordinarily be Bill's) could go to the Alcoholic Foundation. The newly formed Works Publishing Co would later come to be known as AA World Services or AAWS. (LR 197, BW-FH 116-119, SM S6, PIO 193-195, AACOA 157, 188, HIW 99-104) .. 1940 - May 22, Works Publishing Co. was legally incorporated as a publishing arm of the Alcoholic Foundation. Bill W and Hank P gave up their stock with a stipulation that Dr Bob and Anne receive 10% royalties on the Big Book for life. Hank was persuaded to relinquish his shares in exchange for a $200 payment ($3,000 today) for office furniture he claimed belonged to him. (AACOA 189-190, LR 199, BW-FH 119, SM 11, PIO 235-236, GTBT 92, GSO-AC) .. 1941 - With the possibility of being recalled to active duty in the Army, Bill W requested that he be granted a royalty on book sales to provide financial support for his wife Lois. The board approved a 10% royalty. Prior to this, Dr Bob was voluntarily giving Bill half the 10% royalty that he and Anne were receiving. Bill W's 10% royalty became his sole source of income. One exception to this occurred sometime in the mid-1940s when Bill's income averaged $1,700 ($24,600 today) over seven years. The board made a grant to Bill of $1,500 ($21,700 today) for each of the seven years for a total of $10,500 ($152,000 today) out of which Bill purchased his Bedford Hills house. (1951 GSC-FR 13) .. 1942 - October, Clarence S stirred up a controversy in Cleveland after discovering that Dr Bob and Bill W were receiving royalties from Big Book sales. (DBGO 267-269, BW-FH 153-154, AACOA 193-194) Bill and Dr Bob re-examined the problem of their financial status and concluded that royalties from the Big Book seemed to be the only answer to the problem. Bill sought counsel from his spiritual sponsor, Father Edward Dowling, who suggested that Bill and Bob could not accept money for 12th Step work, but should accept royalties as compensation for special services. This later formed the basis for Tradition 8 and Concept 11. Due to the amount of time both co-founders dedicated to the Fellowship, it was impossible for either of them to earn a living through their normal professions. (AACOA 194-195, PIO 322-324) .. 1945 - The Alcoholic Foundation wrote to John D Rockefeller Jr and the 1940 dinner guests that AA no longer needed their financial help. Big Book royalties could look after Dr Bob and Bill and group contributions could pay the office expenses. If these were insufficient, the reserve accumulated out of literature sales could meet the deficit. In total, Rockefeller and the dinner guest donated $30,700 ($365,000 today) to AA. The donations were viewed as loans and paid back out of Big Book income. This led to the principle of being fully self-supporting declining all further outside contributions and later formed the basis of Tradition 7. (AACOA 203-204) .. 1947 - August, in his Grapevine Traditions essay titled "Last Seven Years Have Made AA Self-Supporting" Bill W wrote "Two years ago the trustees set aside, out of AA book funds, a sum which enabled my wife and me to pay off the mortgage on our home and make some needed improvements. The Foundation also granted Dr Bob and me each a royalty of 10% on the book Alcoholics Anonymous, our only income from AA sources. We are both very comfortable and deeply grateful." (LOH 62-66) .. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5544. . . . . . . . . . . . History of Royalties - Part 2 From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/23/2009 10:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII 1951 - April 20-22, (NY City) 37 United States and Canadian delegates (half the planned number) convened at the Commodore Hotel as the first Panel of the General Service Conference. .. It was reported that the Trustees of the Foundation, following Dr. Bob's death, had voted to increase Bill's royalty on the Big Book from 10 percent to 15 per cent. .This author's royalty would also apply to other Books the Trustees are anxious to have Bill prepare for their consideration in the future. The chairman reported that Bill insisted that this increase be approved by the General Service Conference. A motion approving the action of the Trustees was approved unanimously by the Delegates. The Conference also approved unanimously a motion recommending that steps be taken to insure that Bill and Lois receive book royalties so long as either one shall live. (1951 GSC-FR 12) .. 1952 - As he did in 1951, Bill reviewed with the delegates the financial arrangements under which he now works, reminding them that his living is derived from royalties on the book, "Alcoholics Anonymous." Should there be an increase in his royalties as a result of the writing project he has set for himself, Bill said, he would wish to take from them only "a good living, not necessarily the full royalties his writings may earn. As a matter of movement interest, Bill said, he hoped it would be agreeable if he had discretion over the disposition of his excess royalties - not for personal use, but for such matters as restitution to creditors and some provision for the future of General Service Office employees who now have no form of social security. Bill's presentation was approved in its entirety, upon recommendation of the Conference Committee on Literature. (1952 GSC-FR 21) .. 1954 - The Alcoholic Foundation Board reported that it decided not to accept, a royalty of $.25 per copy on sales of a book on The Twelve Steps, which had been offered by the publishers. (1954 GSC-FR 17) .. 1955 - July 1-3, AA's 20th anniversary and 2nd International Convention was held in St Louis' Kiel Auditorium. Bill W thanked the Convention attendees for purchasing the Big Book because the royalties from it had provided him and Lois with a home where they had seen more than 3,000 AA members over the years. (AACOA 220, PIO 354, 357) .. 1957 - At the Conference, Bill read to the Delegates the following letter addressed to Mr. Archibald B. Roosevelt, Treasurer of the General Service Board: .. Dear Archie: .. As many are aware, I have long felt that my personal finances should always be an open book to our membership. Ever since 1951, when the General Service Conference first met, my book royalties and m y expense allowances have been shown in each year's audit. This practice will of course be continued. This year, however, I would like to make a full accounting for all monies received by me from 1938, when the Alcoholic Foundation was created, to 1955 when, at St. Louis, the Conference and its General Service Board assumed final responsibility for AA's world affairs. .. This seventeen-year audit has been prepared by Mr. Wilbur Smith, our CPA, and is here enclosed. Saving the small amounts 1 received as a result of Mr. Rockefeller's 1940 dinner, it can be seen that m y whole income over those years has derived only from AA Publishing activities. My other services to the Headquarters were all volunteer. .. I earnestly recommend that this detailed accounting be always shown to every Conference Delegate on request; and further that a copy of this audit be placed on permanent file at the New York Headquarters where, on request, it can be read by any visiting AA member. .. Ever yours, .. Bill .. P. S. I hope that the Conference sees fit to publish this letter each year in its annual report. .. 1958 - April, (NY City) the 8th Conference. The status of Bill W, cofounder of AA, in relation to the Fellowship was clarified in two respects at the 1958 Conference. .. The first point of clarification was requested directly by Bill in a letter to Delegates in which he pointed out that several future courses were open to him, ranging from complete disassociation from AA service matters to continuing participation in the number of unfinished projects which he feels are important to the welfare of the movement. .. On this point the Conference voted unanimously to ask Bill to provide continuing leadership on all projects of movement wide concern in which he is currently interested. .. In a second vote, the Conference approved the action of the General Service Board in re-assigning to Bill royalty rights in his three books (Alcoholics Anonymous, Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions and Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age), and in books he may write in the future, for the duration of the copyrights involved. Bill has declared his intention to have these royalty rights revert to the movement when the copyrights expire. (1958 GSC-FR 7) .. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5545. . . . . . . . . . . . History of Royalties - Part 3 From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/23/2009 10:53:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII 1961 - April 19-23, (NY City) the 11th Conference. Bill W asked the General Service Board of Trustees to consider specific action, in respect of royalty payments on textbook literature, to assure that co-Founder Bill and his wife, Lois, may not suffer a possible loss of income in the future. .. In a moving display of its affection for Bill as the surviving co-founder of A. A. and for Lois, his wife, the Eleventh Conference suggested to the Board of Trustees that changes be made in Bill's current royalty arrangement involving A. A. textbooks to minimize the possibility that Bill's income might be reduced in the future if cheaper editions of AA texts are ever produced. .. The action was occasioned by a general discussion of the advisability of producing a "cheap edition" of the "Big Book". (See separate Policy page of this report) .. In the course of the discussion, Bill reviewed his financial arrangements with the movement, pointing out that all his income derived from book royalties and that he did not receive compensation for his non-writing services to the Fellowship. He stressed that he was not interested in accumulating a large estate but that he was concerned for the welfare of Lois and certain immediate relatives and devoted friends who might require assistance in the event of his passing. He said that he had already deposited with the Trustees an informal "letter of intent" suggesting what disposition might be made of royalties due his estate after his death. .. While noting that the reduced royalties from paperback texts would undoubtedly curtail his income, Bill repeated a pledge that he has given previous Conferences. He said that if royalties under his present contract should become "unseemingly large" he would reduce them voluntarily or permit the movement to take the initiative in reducing them. .. Trustee Dick S presented the following memorandum which was converted into a motion from the floor and adopted unanimously: "The Conference recognizes that the publication of cheap editions of AA books would probably reduce the income to World Services, and Bill's personal income. This conference unanimously suggests the following to the Trustees: To add a rider to Bill's royalty contract to the effect that, if cheaper books are ever published, Bill's royalties be increased by an amount sufficient to keep the royalty income at the same average level it had been for the five years before cheaper books were published; (further, that) as time goes on, if inflation erodes the purchasing power of this income, the Trustees will adjust the royalties to produce the same approximate purchasing power; this to be effective during the lifetime of Bill and Lois and Bill's legatees." (PIO 393, 1961 GSC-FR 3, 7) .. 1963 - Bill W modified his royalty agreement with AAWS so that 10% of his royalties went to his mistress, Grapevine Editor, Helen W. The agreement provided Bill and Lois with a comfortable living on annual incomes between $30,000 to $40,000 during the 1960's ($175,000 to $233,000 today). At the time of Bill's death (1971) it was around $56,000 ($295,000 today). In the 1970's, royalties surged significantly and it made Lois W quite rich. (PIO 393, BW-FH 192-193, GB 69-70, WPR 72) .. 1964 - April 21-26, (NY City) the 14th Conference reported that it reviewed and approved an agreement between' Bill W, co-founder, and AA World Services Inc covering royalties derived from Bill's writings. (The intent of the agreement is to protect Bill, his wife, Lois, and their designated heirs, while defining AAWS's position as the Society's publishing agency). (1964 GSC-FR 4) .. A section of the Conference Report titled "Royalty Agreement On Bill's Writings Approved" stated: .. Of all the factors responsible for the growth of AA (and for the sobriety of hundreds of thousands of men and women around the world), probably none is more important than the movement's book literature. The three major texts - "Alcoholics Anonymous," "The Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions" and "AA Comes of Age" along with the service manual on The Twelve Concepts of Service are likely to endure as keys to personal sobriety and Group survival. All four publications have one thing in common; they were written or edited by Bill W, surviving co-founder, and the copyrights to them were assigned by Bill to the movement. The movement was thus assured ownership of its basic publications, the income from which has also underwritten many of the Society's world services. .. For his services to AA over a period of nearly 30 years, Bill has never received salary compensation from the movement. His only income has been from royalties on his writings and editorial work. Because the earlier royalty agreements made no provision for protecting Lois, Bill's wife, in the event of Bill's death, and did not provide for a transfer of royalties to relatives to whom Bill and Lois have obligations, the agreements have been reviewed by the General Service Board in recent years. .. As a result, the Board in April, 1963, concluded a new agreement with Bill which was submitted to the 1964 Conference for review and approval. The new agreement, outlined in the report of the Conference Finance Committee, was approved unanimously by the Delegates. .. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5546. . . . . . . . . . . . History of Royalties - Part 4 From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/23/2009 10:54:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The 1964 Conference Approved an agreement between Bill W, co-founder, and AA World Services Inc covering royalties derived from Bill's writings. .. Under the terms of the contract, a royalty of 15 per cent is paid to Bill, except that no royalties are paid on "overseas editions." Royalties are to be paid to Bill and Lois, his wife, during their lifetimes; following the deaths of Bill and Lois, royalties revert in shares of royalties to living heirs. These shares revert to AAWS upon the deaths of the beneficiaries. Not more than 20 per cent may be bequeathed to any heir under the age of 40 years as of the date of the agreement between Bill and AAWS (April 29, 1963). The contract provides protection of royalties against "cheap books" and protection of AAWS and Bill against fluctuations in general economic conditions. AAWS retains the right of “first refusal" on any future literary works of Bill's. (1964 GSC-FR 9, 37) .. 1967 - April, the US copyright to the first edition Big Book expired and was not renewed. The oversight was not discovered until nearly 20 years later in 1985. It was also discovered in 1985 that the US copyright to new material in the second edition Big Book had lapsed in 1983. It should be noted however that the Big Book copyright has expired only in the US. It is still in force outside the US under international treaty agreements. (NG 299, GSO) .. 1975 - The Ask It Basket for the Conference contained the question: .. Q. Who receives the royalties from book sales? What did this amount to in 1974? In 1973? .. A. They used to go to Bill, now go to heirs designated in his will. Amounts are in your financial statements for 1973 and 1974. (1964 GSC-FR 40) .. 1978 - (1978 GSC-FR 43) contained the following: AA World Services, Inc, as lessee, provides facilities for GSO and the Grapevine, both of which pay for the space they occupy. As employer, AAWS pays GSO employees' salaries. And as publisher, AAWS owns the copyrights on all Conference approved books and literature. It pays Lois a royalty on the books Bill wrote. (This royalty was Bill's only source of income from AA. He never received a salary.) .. The Ask It Basket for the 1978 Conference contained the question: .. Q Please explain the royalties on the AA books. .. A The royalties agreement on the books Bill wrote are covered in a contract between Bill and the board. The royalty is 15% of the retail price. The contract provides that he could pass the royalties along to his widow, and that she could pass them on to another family member who is over 40 years of age at that time. Following the death of the family member, the royalties cease to exist and the money reverts to AA. The dollar amount is reported yearly in the Conference Report (see pg 50). .. 1980 - (1980 GSC-FR 31) contained the following: .. Big Book tapes - We approved the price of $25. We sought legal counsel on royalties and were advised that, as tapes were not covered in the original contract between Bill W and the board, there is no legal obligation. However, a moral obligation seemed t o exist. Lois W was consulted, and she chooses to forgo any royalties for one year and then review the matter. .. 1983 - The copyright to the new material in the second edition Big Book expired without being renewed. AAWS did not discover the oversight until 1985. (NG 299) (1983 GSC-FR 31) contained the following: .. After discussion and thought by this board and by the trustees, we accepted Lois W's proposal that the 1963 royalty agreement between Bill W and the board be amended to permit her to bequeath part of her royalties to a foundation for at least ten years after her death or until 1997, whichever is later, and also a part to her nephew. .. 1984 - The Ask It Basket for the 1984 Conference contained the question: Q Could you please explain the royalties being paid on our literature? (I) On which pieces of literature do we pay royalties? (2) How much? (3) To whom? (4) For how long? A (1) The royalties are paid on the books Bill W wrote and are: Big Book; "AA Comes of Age," "As Bill Sees It," and "Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions." (2) - (4) The royalties are the result of an agreement between AAWS and Bill W in 1963. Bill got 15% of the retail value of the books, and Lois was to receive 13 ½% of the retail value of the books, which she still receives today. As of last year, under the terms of the agreement between Bill and AAWS, Lois could, on a one-time basis, bequeath 80% of the royalties to individuals who were age 40 or more in 1963. The remaining 20% could be left to anyone at any age. This agreement has now been amended, and Lois can leave the royalties to other than an individual, such as a foundation to maintain Stepping Stones. However, any royalties Lois wills to a foundation will terminate ten years after her death. All other royalties will revert back to the board upon the demise of the recipient. (1984 GSC-FR 32) .. 1985 - AAWS discovered that the copyrights to the first and second edition of the Big Book had expired. The copyright on the first edition lapsed in 1967. The copyright on new material in the second edition lapsed in 1983. Both AAWS and the Wilson estate shared responsibility for copyright renewal. (NG 299, www) .. The Ask It Basket for the 1984 Conference contained the question: Q When and by whom was it decided that Lois's royalties could and would be bequeathed to the next generation, and when will the royalties become AA's totally, if ever? A The royalties are paid on the books Bill W wrote, which are: The Big Book; "AA Comes of Age," "As Bill Sees It," and "Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions" (two editions). The royalties are the result of an agreement between AAWS and Bill W in 1963. Lois was to receive 13 ½% of the retail value of the books, which she still receives today. Under the terms of the agreement between Bill and AAWS, Lois could, on a one-time basis, bequeath 80% of the royalties to individuals who were age 40 or more in 1963. The remaining 20% could be left to individuals of any age. This agreement has now been amended, and Lois can leave the royalties to other than an individual, such as a foundation to maintain Stepping Stones. However, any royalties Lois wills to a foundation will terminate ten years after her death. All other royalties will revert back to the board upon the demise of the recipient. In the amendment, Lois gives up the right to leave anything to individuals younger than age 40 in 1963 except for an individual who was a few months short of age 40 at that time. (1985 GSC-FR 32) .. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5547. . . . . . . . . . . . History of Royalties - Part 5 (last) From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/23/2009 10:55:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII 1986 - (1986 GSC-FR 8) contained the following under the title "Update on AA's copyrights." .. The copyright on the first edition of the Big Book lapsed in 1967 and the copyright on the new material in the second edition lapsed in 1983--both because of a failure to renew them in a timely fashion. There was a mistaken belief that registering the copyright on the second edition in 1956 served to revive the copyright on the first edition; the misconception continued, with respect to the second edition, when the third edition was copyrighted in 1976. .. But what was to be done about the royalties to Lois W prescribed in a 1963 agreement between Bill and AAWS Inc? We and Lois reaffirmed the intent of Bill and the 1963 AAWS board by negotiating an amendment providing for the continuation of the 1963 agreement as though the copyrights were still valid and guaranteeing that Lois and AAWS, Inc, would each hold the other harmless for the loss of the copyright in 1967. .. 1986 - (1986 GSC-FR 28-29) contained the following under the report from AAWS: .. We discovered that the copyright to the first edition of the Big Book lapsed in 1967, and that the material in that book has been in the public domain since that time. This event was precipitated by the publishing of a replica of the first edition by CTM Inc. As a result, we engaged in significant legal exchanges with that company, and we believe it has ceased to publish. Future responsibility for copyrights has been placed in the hands of attorneys. .. An Agreement between Lois W and AAWS, Inc, was executed by Lois and John Bragg (as president) on August 26, 1985, stipulating that: (1) Big Book royalty payments will continue to be made as though the copyrights were still in force; and (2) both AAWS and Lois (and her heirs) are released from claims against the other for failure, if any, by AAWS, Inc or Bill W (respectively) to apply for Big Book copyright renewal. .. 1988 - (1988 GSC-FR 32) contained the following under the report from AAWS: .. Our copyright attorneys sent a letter to the publisher and Nan R, the author, regarding her book "AA. -Inside Alcoholics Anonymous" which contains excerpts from AA literature, the use of AA's trademark, and a violation of the Twelfth Tradition. Due to lack of cooperation on the part of the author and the publisher, we were advised by legal counsel to expeditiously take all appropriate action with respect to trademark violation, including litigation if necessary, regarding the book, which gives the impression it is allied with AA and also threatens to be harmful to AA interests. As a result some, but not all, objectionable features have been removed. .. Agreed to renegotiate the renewal rights to As Bill Sees It once these rights mature, and to discontinue negotiations with Lois W's attorney. .. 1988 - Oct 5, Lois W (age 97) co-founder of Al-Anon Family Groups, died. (AACOA xi) Royalties passed to her surviving designated heirs who included Dr Leonard Strong husband of Lois' sister-in-law Dorothy (Bill's sister), a niece and nephew, Muriel Strong Morley and Leonard V Strong III, and sisters-in-law Laura and Florence Burnham. Also listed were Nell Wing, Lois' cousins Carol Lou Burnham, Ann Burhan Smith, Ann Walker, Dixon Walker and Kate Knap plus Bill's cousins Jean Kalkoff and Barbara Palazari. 50% was bequeathed to the Stepping Stones Foundation (to terminate on the later of August 31, 1997 or 10 years after Lois' death). .. 1995 - (1995 GSC-FR 25) contained the following under the report from AAWS: We discussed the proposal to settle with the recipients of our royalty payments which would end our legal obligation to pay royalties. After discussion, it was the consensus of the board that this would not be beneficial at this point in time. .. 2007 - Based on data in final Conference Reports: .. Cumulative royalties amounted to $656,095 up to Bill's death in January 1971 ($4,151,978 in 2006 dollars). Cumulative royalties amounted to $9,063,985 up to Lois' death in October 1988 ($23,259,233 in 2006 dollars). Cumulative royalties from 1950 to 2007 totaled $19,148,182 ($37,117,034 in 2006 dollars). .. Cheers Arthur [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5548. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Bill W quote: Our quarrels have not hurt us .... From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/24/2009 3:55:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Don't know about a "convention", but this is what Bill said in a talk recorded in As Bill Sees It under the heading Trouble Becomes an Asset: "I think that this particular General Service Conference (1958) holds promise and has been filled with progress - because it has had trouble ... If this Conference was ruffled, if individuals were deeply disturbed - I say, 'This is fine.' What parliament, what republic, what democracy has not been disturbed? Friction of opposing viewpoints is the very modus operandi on which they proceed. Then what should we be afraid of?" - - - - To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com From: Baileygc23@aol.com Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 22:22:57 -0500 Subject: Bill W quote: Our quarrels have not hurt us .... Bill W. addressed one convention and said, 'Our quarrels have not hurt us one bit.' Can anyone tell me which convention it was, and where I can get a copy of his entire address to that convention? _________________________________________________________________ Check out the new and improved services from Windows Live. Learn more! http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/132630768/direct/01/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5549. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Big Book royalties -- 10% to Helen W. From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/24/2009 4:07:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Re history of BB royalties: "Helen (Wynn) was always broke ... (so) Bill decided that she would inherit a percentage of his royalties from the (Big) book..." (My Name is Bill, Susan Cheever, Washington Square Press, 2004); and, "After Helen left the Grapevine in 1962, Bill contributed to her support though when he wanted to direct a portion of his royalty income to her, the AA trustees refused to do it. Bill was furious, and Helen was terribly hurt. In 1963, though, prompted by his worsening emphysema, Bill and AA executed a new royalty agreement that called for Helen to receive ten per cent of his book royalties, and Lois 90 per cent after his death. Bill also added a codicil to his will in which he referred to this agreement and confirmed that the allocation of royalty income it provided was indeed his desire." (Bill W: a biography of Alcoholics Anonymous cofounder Bill Wilson, Francis Hartigan, Thomas Dunne Books, St Martin's Griffin, 2000). IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5550. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: History of Royalties - on AACOA From: mdingle76 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/25/2009 10:09:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The following carbon copy was found in a file cabinet belonging to Tom Powers at East Ridge: Harper & Brothers Jun 3, 1957 49 E. 33rd Street New York, NY Attention: Mr Eugene Exman, Religious Editor Gentlemen: Referring to the coming publication by you of "A.A. Comes of Age" of which I am the author, I wish to make the following disposition of my royalty of 15% for the duration of the first copyright or for the duration of the time you continue to distribute the book — whichever is the greater. In advance of this publication I would like to assign my royalties to the following people, for services rendered: On the first five thousand books, I would like my royalty equally divided between Mr. Tom Powers of Chappaqua, New York, and Miss Nell Wing of New York City. Should you dispose of more than this quantity, I would like my royalties on the remainder divided equally between Mrs. Katherine Swentzel of New York City and Mrs. Helen Riker of Phoenix, Arizona. On the death of any of these people, their share of the royalty will become payable to my account at Alcoholics Anonymous Publishing, Inc., New York City. Again, let me thank you deeply for the wonderful cooperation that I have enjoyed in the preparation of this book from all of you concerned at Harpers. Sincerely yours, William G. Wilson WGW/nw IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5551. . . . . . . . . . . . Royalties for Grapevine related literature From: Stockholm Fellowship . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/26/2009 4:15:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Thank you for the recent history on the royalties for the Big Book and other AAWS literature. I was wondering if anyone knows if royalties are paid to anyone from Grapevine related literature. "Language of the Heart" is a collection of all the Grapevine writings of Bill W. and there have been other anthologies as well. As the Grapevine is official AA literature, though a separate and self-supporting entity, I was curious about any royalties there. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5552. . . . . . . . . . . . Mottos on old anniversary chips From: il22993us . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/28/2009 9:55:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII My father received his first chip sometime in the late 1960's or 70's. The chip says: "recover, serve, unite" rather than "recovery, service, unity" (like the chips we give out today). His 2nd year chip has what we have now. Does anyone know what year the words changed? Was there a pattern here? Thanks! Carole, DOS: 07-03-2006 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5553. . . . . . . . . . . . AA in New Jersey 70th Anniversary Celebration From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/27/2009 6:08:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII 8:00 PM Thursday May 14, 2009 Central Presbyterian Church 46 Park Street Montclair, New Jersey CELEBRATE THE 70th ANNIVERSARY OF A.A. IN NEW JERSEY Come Commemorate the Historic Occasion of the First A.A. meeting in New Jersey on May 14, 1939. (in cooperation with District 37 and the New Haven Group of Montclair, New Jersey) This will be an open speaker meeting recalling The Early History of Alcoholics Anonymous in Northern New Jersey. Come and experience the archives displays detailing the history of A.A. in Northern New Jersey. God Bless, John B For more information e-mail: archives@nnjaa.org And see the flyer at: http://www.nnjaa.org/pdf/district37_montclair_anniv_2009-05-14.pdf - - - - http://www.nnjaa.org/area44/pdf/archives_first_meeting_2009-01-27.pdf A.A. Group # 4 The New Jersey Group of Alcoholics Anonymous On May 14, 1939, a Sunday afternoon, the very first meeting of what was to become the New Jersey Group of Alcoholics Anonymous took place in the home of Hank and Kathleen P. in Upper Montclair. Meetings that had been formerly held in Brooklyn were held in New Jersey for the next 5 or 6 weeks. The meetings began at 4:00 PM and went most of the night. They rotated speakers for the first portion according to Jimmy B. who was living at Hank and Kathleen's home at that time. These were dinner meetings with Herb D. of South Orange paying for a "big spread". The wives always attended these meetings along with their spouses. At the May 14th meeting the attendees voted in the Bill and Lois Home Replacement Fund and each pledged different amounts of support. Bill and Lois were doing an errand when they voted on this. They arrived shortly thereafter and Lois wrote in her diary that they were thrilled. Marty M., a Blythewood Sanitarium patient at the time, took the train from Connecticut to this historical event of Alcoholics Anonymous in New Jersey. The New Jersey Group of A.A. was later renamed the South Orange Sunday Night Group. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5554. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Royalties for Grapevine related literature From: johnlawlee . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/26/2009 3:19:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Stockholm Fellowship wrote: > > Thank you for the recent history on the > royalties for the Big Book and other AAWS > literature. I was wondering if anyone knows > if royalties are paid to anyone from Grapevine > related literature. "Language of the Heart" > is a collection of all the Grapevine writings > of Bill W. and there have been other > anthologies as well. As the Grapevine is > official AA literature, though a separate > and self-supporting entity, I was curious > about any royalties there. > I don't believe The Grapevine magazine has ever been self-supporting. It bleeds money. WSO makes millions on the sale of the Big Books, but that may be its only profitable venture. Our Area is pushing for a Conference action that would end subsidies for the magazine, and would make it available in an online[only]free version. That Action would save millions of dollars and make the magazine available to millions of people. John Lee, Pittsburgh IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5555. . . . . . . . . . . . Spelling of Ebby''s last name From: diazeztone . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/1/2009 6:22:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Is Ebby's last name Thatcher or Thacher? LD Pierce http://www.aabibliography.com - - - - From GFC, the moderator: http://www.texasdistrict5.com/history-in-photos.htm about 40% of the way down the page, has a photo of Ebby's Headstone Albany Rural Cemetery, Albany NY The headstone reads: Edwin T. Thacher 1896-1966 - - - - --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Stonebraker" wrote: > > Did Ebby -- being who he was, "Edwin > Throckmorton Thacher, the brother of the > Mayor of Albany, New York" -- really live, > eat and sleep in the Calvary Mission -- > or was he kept in the much nicer Calvary > Parish House? > > Bob S. > > P.S. There is a picture of the Calvary > Church Parish House and Mission on the > site below - thanks Art! > > http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Indyfourthdimension > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Robert Stonebraker > 212 SW 18th Street > Richmond, IN 47347 > (765) 935-0130 > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5556. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Royalties for Grapevine related literature From: stockholmfellowship . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/1/2009 10:02:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII http://www.aagrapevine.org/about/ The Grapevine is self-supporting. I would be VERY disappointed if the AA Grapevine stopped publishing the magazine. I have lived in several countries overseas and have enjoyed being able to take the Grapevine as a portable meeting when in transit or in countries where there is a language barrier. And, I have a hard-copy to pass on to others. In the States, where I got sober, our service district would bundle old copies of the Grapevine and give them to prisons, hospitals and institutions. Whatever, I just wanted to know if there are any royalties paid by the AA Grapevine to Bill W's estate for "Language of the Heart" or any other such books. - - - - From: Jon Markle (serenitylodge at mac.com) John Lee, could I ask you to support the statement that "WSO makes millions on the sale of the Big Books"? I hope this doesn't go anywhere. There are many people who do not use the internet, or they do not have access to a computer. To limit the Grapevine, or any other of our literature to on-line access only would be a great disservice to our Fellowship, in my opinion. I don't see how this would fly. Jon (Raleigh) 9/9/82 - - - - --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "johnlawlee" (johnlawlee at yahoo.com) wrote: > > --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, > Stockholm Fellowship > wrote: > > > > Thank you for the recent history on the > > royalties for the Big Book and other AAWS > > literature. I was wondering if anyone knows > > if royalties are paid to anyone from Grapevine > > related literature. "Language of the Heart" > > is a collection of all the Grapevine writings > > of Bill W. and there have been other > > anthologies as well. As the Grapevine is > > official AA literature, though a separate > > and self-supporting entity, I was curious > > about any royalties there. > > > I don't believe The Grapevine magazine has ever > been self-supporting. It bleeds money. WSO > makes millions on the sale of the Big Books, > but that may be its only profitable venture. > Our Area is pushing for a Conference action > that would end subsidies for the magazine, and > would make it available in an online[only]free > version. That Action would save millions of > dollars and make the magazine available to > millions of people. > > John Lee, Pittsburgh > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5557. . . . . . . . . . . . Grapevine finances From: edgarc@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/1/2009 6:30:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In Message 5554 from (johnlawlee it yahoo.com) John Lee of Pittsburgh said: I don't believe The Grapevine magazine has ever been self-supporting. It bleeds money. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ The 990 (income tax) form filed by Alcoholics Anonymous Grapevine, Inc. for 2007, the latest year, shows total revenues of $2,825,277 and total expenses of $2,850,324 for a deficit for the year of $25,047, or a tad less than 1 per cent, which can hardly justify the judgement that it "bleeds money." As long as we're looking at the 990s, the tax return for 2007 for General Service Board of AA shows total revenue of $9,269,143 and total expenses of $8,784,628 for an excess of $484,515 or a little over 5%. And the 990 for World Services, the publishing arm, shows total revenue of $8,736,348 and total expenses of $7,999,966 for an excess of $736,382 or about 8.5 per cent. All three tax returns are available to anyone who registers (free) at Guidestar.org, which provides a searchable database of information about 1.7 million charities recognized by the IRS . . . Edgar C, Sarasota, Florida IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5558. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill Wilson''s meditation practices and guided meditation From: mdingle76 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/25/2009 9:48:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From the little I've heard Tom P. (Bill's editorial consultant and close friend) speak of Wilson's 11th Step practice, he [Tom] stated the following: 1) Praying in private was important — with the door locked if possible. Use a partition if you share a room with a spouse. 2) Saying the St. Francis prayer and the 23rd Psalm — which Bill taught his sponsees to say. Also, Bill's favorite Hymn was "Holy, Holy, Holy." 3) Reading the Bible everyday. For whatever it's worth! Matt D. - - - - From: James Flynn (jdf10487 at yahoo.com) According to some biographers, Bill W. used automatic writing as a means of receiving guidance from a Higher Power. He also held seances and experimented with other forms of spiritualism. Sincerely, Jim F. - - - - From GFC the moderator: Bill & Lois's morning prayer in Pass It On, page 265 Oh Lord, we thank Thee that Thou art, that we are from everlasting to everlasting. Blessed be Thy holy name and all Thy benefactions to us of light, of love, and of service. May we find and do Thy will in good strength, in good cheer today. May Thy ever-present grace be discovered by family and friends -- those here and those beyond -- by our Societies throughout the world, by men and women everywhere, and among those who must lead in these troubled times. Oh Lord, we know Thee to be all wonder, all beauty, all glory, all power, all love. Indeed, Thou art everlasting love. Accordingly, Thou has fashioned for us a destiny passing through Thy many mansions, ever in more discovery of Thee and in no separation between ourselves. - - - - --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "ryantfowler@..." wrote: > > Does anyone know what Bill Wilson's meditation > practices were like, especially toward the end > of his life? Also, does anyone know when > guided meditation meetings were first held? > > - - - - > > From the moderator: > > http://hindsfoot.org/medit11.doc > > "Twelve-Step Meditation in the A.A. Big Book > and the 12 & 12" > > will give you an intro to a lot of this. > > Among other things, this article describes > how Bill W. himself talked about the use of > guided imagery on page 100 of the 12 + 12. > > The sections at the end of the article talk > about: > > Quiet Time > > Jacobson's method of progressive relaxation > (VERY effective, and too little known and > used in AA) > > Emmet Fox, The Golden Key > (plus Fox's method of reciting a mantra > to quiet and calm the soul) > > Glenn C. > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5559. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill Wilson''s meditation practices and guided meditation From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/2/2009 2:23:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Bill W and his long time problems with depression and other things brings to mind his interactions with Dr Earle and Dr Earle's comments on their relationship, plus Dr Earle and his search for serenity in Asia. Since Dr Earle's attempt to find solace in Eastern ideas had Bill W's interest, it could add another aspect to Bill W as well as Dr Earle's efforts at meditation practices. George - - - - From the moderator, for more about Dr. Earle M., whom George refers to, see: http://silkworth.net/aabiography/earlem.html Biography: "Physician Heal Thyself!" Dr. Earle M., San Francisco Bay Area, CA. (p. 393 in 2nd edition, p. 345 in 3rd edition, p. 301 in the 4th edition.) "During his first year in A.A. he went to New York and met Bill W. They became very close and talked frequently both on the phone and in person. He frequently visited Bill at his home, Stepping Stones. He called Bill one of his sponsors, and said there was hardly a topic they did not discuss in detail. He took a Fifth Step with Bill. And Bill often talked over his depressions with Earle." "In a search for serenity Earle studied and practiced many forms of religion: Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism, and ancestor worship." GFC IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5560. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Spelling of Ebby''s last name From: John Barton . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/4/2009 2:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII THACHER (not Thatcher) You can see Ebby's signature in his own writing: http://silkworth.net/aahistory/Signatures_found_in_1st_Big_Book_04_1939.doc Best Regards John B - - - - Message 5446, Dec 21, 2008 from LES COLE (elsietwo at msn.com) I had, for years written Ebby's last name with a "t". I don't know why it was but it seemed OK. Then, recently, I found a picture of Ebby's grave stone and learned how it actually was spelled without the "t". That was my answer. In this new piece, "signatures" I see that Ebby signed his own name without a "t," YET when Virginia MacLeod wrote he commentaries on the same book pages, she wrote Thatcher WITH a "t." Isn't it interesting that the oft-repeated error got started that far back, and when she saw Ebby's signature in the same book, she established an early precedent? Les Colorado Springs, CO - - - - From GFC, the moderator: EBBY'S TOMBSTONE http://www.texasdis trict5.com/ history-in- photos.htm about 40% of the way down the page, has a photo of Ebby's Headstone Albany Rural Cemetery, Albany NY The headstone reads: Edwin T. Thacher 1896-1966 - - - - IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5561. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Grapevine finances From: Kimball ROWE . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/3/2009 9:48:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Please make the distinction between "The Grapevine Magazine" and "Grapevine Inc." They are not the same. The tax forms for one cannot be use to support the other. The "magazine" is the primary vehicle for keeping the "Inc" afloat. Off the soap box - - - - From: (elg3_79 at yahoo.com) I realize this discussion is wandering somewhat from historical interest, but those of us who take meetings into correctional facilities where even paperback books are not allowed depend on the Grapevine for our readings and to be able to offer something material to the inmates. An online version could be printed out but does not have the same authenticity as a printed, copyrighted Grapevine issue. (Even without the staples, which we sometimes must remove. The GV is rumored to be beginning to make a shift to glued binding.) Y'all's in service, Ted G. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5562. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Royalties for Grapevine related literature From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/28/2009 4:29:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII But it would not, as it happens, make it available to those in jail or prison, which is where at least anecdotal evidence indicates it is the most useful. I would welcome historical evidence on whether the grapevine has been self-supporting, but it may be that -- historically, and this is AAHistoryLovers -- the Grapevine was no more envisioned as self-supporting in and of itself than any variety of twelfth-step work would be expected, if evaluated specifically and separately from all other Twelfth-Step activities, to be self-supporting in and of itself. I rather think the original "inkstained wretches" may have carried the burden themselves -- Marty and Priscilla and Lois K and Bud T and Felicia and the guy who ran the bookshop on 5th Avenue all had money. Still, it would be interesting to know if it was ever envisioned that the Grapevine would pay for itself. - - - - > From: johnlawlee@yahoo.com > Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 > I don't believe The Grapevine magazine has ever > been self-supporting. It bleeds money .... > Our Area is pushing for a Conference action > that would end subsidies for the magazine, and > would make it available in an online[only]free > version. That Action would save millions of > dollars and make the magazine available to > millions of people. > > John Lee, Pittsburgh - - - - On Mar 3, 2009, at 9:48 AM, Kimball ROWE wrote: > The GV is rumored to be beginning > to make a shift to glued binding.) - - - - From: Cindy Miller (cm53 at earthlink.net) Rumor confirmed. I got mine last week. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5563. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill Wilson''s meditation practices and guided meditation From: mdingle76 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/5/2009 6:59:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII One man who influenced Bill Wilson greatly was Gerald Heard. Gerald was the man who introduced Bill to Aldous Huxley. I suspect that Gene Exman (the religious editor over at Harper that Bill visited with the first 2 chapters of the Big Book)introduced Bill to Gerald. Anyway, Bill (and Lois) first visited Heard on a trip to California in 1941. Heard had been practicing yoga and earnestly studying the Scriptures of many of the world's great religions. Heard wrote many books on the subject of God, religion and also UFO's (a subject that Bill was very interested in and would talk to Heard about at lengths). One of Heard's books even made it into Dr. Bob's library — "A Preface to Prayer." Tom Powers often said that Heard was one of Bill's sponsors. Heard was particularly influenced by Sri Ramakrishna and Heard donated his Monastery, Trabucco Canyon, to the Vedanta Society of Southern California, to be run by Swami Prabhavananda. You can also read Gerald Heard's article in the AA Grapevine called "The Search for Ecstasy." He also wrote articles about AA published in sources outside the Grapevine. Gerald (and Dr. Cohen) oversaw the LSD sessions that both Tom and Bill experienced. (It was Tom and Bill who were sent to California on AA Headquarters business to get AA out on the big screen — a story for a different day.) Matt D. ______________________________ FROM THE MODERATOR: WIKIPEDIA SAYS http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Heard "Henry Fitzgerald Heard commonly called Gerald Heard (October 6, 1889 - August 14, 1971) was a historian, science writer, educator, and philosopher. He wrote many articles and over 35 books. Heard was a guide and mentor to numerous well-known Americans, including Clare Boothe Luce and Bill Wilson, co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous, in the 1950s and 1960s." - - - - Message 5228 from ArtSheehan@msn.com (ArtSheehan at msn.com) British radio commentator Gerald Heard introduced Bill W to Aldous Huxley and British psychiatrists Humphrey Osmond and Abram Hoffer. Bill joined with Heard and Huxley and first took LSD in California on August 29, 1956. Among those invited to experiment with LSD (and who accepted) were Nell Wing, Father Ed Dowling, Sam Shoemaker and Lois Wilson. Marty M and other AA members participated in New York (under medical supervision by a psychiatrist from Roosevelt Hospital). - - - - Message 4806 from jlobdell54@hotmail.com (jlobdell54 at hotmail.com) I have recently seen on a couple of AA-related history sites a statement that H. F. Heard was a pen-name for Aldous Huxley. In fact H. F. Heard was Henry FitzGerald Heard (1889-1971) who also wrote as Gerald Heard. He was a friend of Aldous Huxley (and of Bill Wilson) but he certainly was not Aldous Huxley. ______________________________ MATT D. IS RESPONDING TO MESSAGE 5559 from (Baileygc23 at aol.com) > Bill W and his long time problems with > depression and other things brings to mind his > interactions with Dr Earle and Dr Earle's > comments on their relationship, plus > Dr Earle and his search for serenity in Asia. > > Since Dr Earle's attempt to find solace in > Eastern ideas had Bill W's interest, it could > add another aspect to Bill W as well as > Dr Earle's efforts at meditation practices. > > George > > - - - - > > From the moderator, for more about > Dr. Earle M., whom George refers to, see: > > http://silkworth.net/aabiography/earlem.html > > Biography: "Physician Heal Thyself!" > Dr. Earle M., San Francisco Bay Area, CA. > (p. 393 in 2nd edition, p. 345 in 3rd > edition, p. 301 in the 4th edition.) > > "During his first year in A.A. he went to New > York and met Bill W. They became very close > and talked frequently both on the phone and > in person. He frequently visited Bill at his > home, Stepping Stones. He called Bill one > of his sponsors, and said there was hardly a > topic they did not discuss in detail. He took > a Fifth Step with Bill. And Bill often talked > over his depressions with Earle." > > "In a search for serenity Earle studied and > practiced many forms of religion: Hinduism, > Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism, and ancestor > worship." > > GFC > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5564. . . . . . . . . . . . Rowland or Roland Hazard? From: Michael F. Margetis . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/9/2009 12:15:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi all, I see Rowland Hazard's name spelled as "Roland" in many seemingly authoritative documents. Even Dr. Jung's letter to Bill he spells it "Roland". (Bill spells it "Rowland") Which is correct? Thanks, Mike Margetis Brunswick, Maryland - - - - From Glenn C., the moderator: The three most important works on this topic are all based on a careful study of the Hazard Family papers which are archived at the Rhode Island Historical Society in Providence. Cora Finch's article also draws on material in the Yale Collection of American Literature at the Beinecke Rare Book and Manuscript Library. These letters, cancelled checks, and so on, show that the family spelled the name "Rowland Hazard," nickname "Roy." ____________________ Richard M. Dubiel, "The Road to Fellowship: The Role of the Emmanuel Movement and the Jacoby Club in the Development of Alcoholics Anonymous" http://hindsfoot.org/kDub1.html http://hindsfoot.org/kDub2.html ____________________ Amy Colwell Bluhm, Ph.D., "Verification of C. G. Jung’s analysis of Rowland Hazard and the history of Alcoholics Anonymous" in the American Psychological Association's journal History of Psychology in November 2006. ____________________ Cora Finch, Stellar Fire: Carl Jung, a New England Family, and the Risks of Anecdote http://www.stellarfire.org/ ____________________ ROWLAND HAZARD WENT TO CARL JUNG FOR PSYCHOANALYSIS IN 1926, NOT 1931 Bill W. thought that Rowland had gone to see Carl Jung in 1931, but Richard Dubiel showed (from letters in the Hazard family papers) that there was no time in 1931 when Rowland could have engaged in a long psychoanalysis by Carl Jung in Switzerland. Subsequently, Bluhm and Finch, working independently, discovered in the Hazard family papers letters (including one from Rowland Hazard himself, enthusiastically describing how well his psychoanalysis by Jung was progessing) which made it clear that it was 1926 when Rowland was psychoanalyzed by Jung. The following is taken from Cora Finch's article: - - - - [In early 1926] Rowland and Helen Hazard had been on vacation in Bermuda with Rowland's sister and her husband. Rowland apparently lost control of his drinking, an argument developed, and Helen sent him home by himself.26 The letters are vague, but there is an implication that the crisis was precipitated by a revelation of infidelity on Rowland's part. Helen cabled Leonard asking him to meet Rowland in New York when he arrived on 25 March and take him to Dr. Riggs' sanitarium in Stockbridge, Massachusetts.27 After listening to Rowland's side of the story, Leonard suspected that the marital problems were more prominent than the drinking. He encouraged Rowland and Helen to consider a different plan. In a letter from Bermuda, Helen wrote, "I agree with you that Dr. Riggs does not seem to have had the ability to help Roy to help himself."28 Helen returned in early April, and Leonard continued to meet with each of them, separately. They agreed that going to Europe to see Dr. Jung together would be the best thing. George Porter, an old friend of Rowland, supported Leonard's campaign of persuasion.29 Rowland and George were in the same class at Yale, and George was an usher in Rowland's wedding. George Porter was a former patient and active supporter of Jung. Jung's popularity with wealthy Americans had begun with his treatment of Porter's friend, Medill McCormick, in 1908. By 17 April 1926, Rowland and Helen were on a steamer bound for Europe. After short stops in London, Paris and Brussels, they arrived in Zurich 6 May. A letter from Rowland to Leonard, dated only "May 15,"30 is written on the stationary of the Dolder Grand Hotel of Zurich. Details in that letter match closely those of a letter from Jung to Leonard dated May 16th, 1926 ("Hazard and his wife are here").31 Both letters indicate that Rowland had begun work with Jung, and Helen with Jung's assistant, Toni Wolff. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ [ROWLAND HAZARD'S MAY 1926 LETTER DESCRIBING HIS SESSIONS CURRENTLY GOING ON WITH CARL JUNG] "I think we get along splendidly. The first day he saw me, J. asked for dreams. That night I produced three corkers — He read them and remarked, "these are fine, fine — but for God's sake don't dream any more" We've been at work interpreting them and it all seems most fascinating and logical to me." "Old boy, this is the dope for me, I'm sure. Thank God for it, and for you for sending me here." 32 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ On 24 June 1926, Rowland's bank account showed an expense of $5,002.50, "to cover charge put through by F.L. & T. Co. a/c sum cabled to RH on his request." It is itemized to "travel."33 The equivalent in today's dollars would be more than $50,000. Some of the money would have been needed for hotel expenses and meals, but even the Hazards could not have spent very much of it on travel. Most of the money was presumably needed to cover Jung's fees. The New York Times social notes column of 24 July 1926 included a mention that "Mr. and Mrs. Rowland Hazard of Peace Dale, RI are at the Ritz-Carlton." By 2 August, Rowland was back in Peace Dale. He told Aunt Caroline about his analysis and showed her the drawings he had made ("The drawings are quite astonishing, symbolical things — Roy seems well and vigorous").34 NOTES 27. Rowland had stayed at the sanitarium during the summer of 1925 and visited Dr. Riggs about once a month through the end of that year, and at least once in 1926 (bank account ledger, Rhode Island Historical Society). Austen Fox Riggs, according to John M. Hadley in his Clinical and Counseling Psychology (New York: Knopf, 1958), "was eminently successful in using methods of reeducation and environmental control. He was opposed to psychoanalytic theory although he recognized the significance of early experiences in the development of psychoneuroses." p 216 28. Helen Hazard to Leonard Bacon, dated only "Friday," (apparently 26 March 1926, based on the contents), "Hazard Family" folder, Beinecke Library 29. Leonard Bacon to Patty Bacon, 2 April 1926, Beinecke Library 30. Rowland Hazard to Leonard Bacon, 15 May, Bacon papers, "Hazard Family" folder, Beinecke Library 31. Carl Gustaf Jung to Leonard Bacon, 16 May 1926, Bacon papers, Beinecke Library 32. Rowland Hazard to Leonard Bacon, Ibid. 33. Rowland Hazard III bank account ledger, RIHS 24. Caroline Hazard to Leonard Bacon, Beinecke Library IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5565. . . . . . . . . . . . Father Martin dies From: aadavidi . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/9/2009 12:38:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII http://news.prnewswire.com/DisplayReleaseContent.aspx?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/st ory/\ 03-09-2009/0004985249&EDATE= [4] The Rev. Joseph C. Martin, Leading Authority on Alcoholism and Addiction Treatment, Dies at 84 Catholic Priest Co-Founded Father Martin's Ashley Treatment Center in Maryland HAVRE DE GRACE, Md., March 9 /PRNewswire/ -- The Rev. Joseph C. Martin, S.S., noted authority and lecturer on alcoholism who co-founded Father Martin's Ashley, an addiction treatment center in Havre de Grace, MD, died today at his home in Havre de Grace. He was 84. Best known for his lectures on alcoholism as a disease, delivered to alcoholics and their families with his charismatic style and sense of humor, Fr. Martin is credited with saving the lives of thousands of alcoholics and addicts. While he retired from active management in 2003, he continued to lecture at Father Martin's Ashley, addressing patients as recently as November 2008. "Today, the entire treatment community mourns the loss of an icon," said the Rev. Mark Hushen, president and chief executive officer of Father Martin's Ashley. "The death of Father Martin marks the end of an era. "His world renowned 'Chalk Talk on Alcohol' changed the lives of thousands of recovering alcoholics," Hushen said. "His humor and spirituality infused his teachings with hope. He believed in the innate dignity of the human person and founded Father Martin's Ashley as an oasis where alcoholics and addicts could heal." Fr. Martin's "Chalk Talk on Alcohol" lecture, which began: "I'm Joe Martin, and I'm an alcoholic," and more than 40 motivational films, are legendary. His films, which have been translated into multiple languages, continue to be used at treatment centers around the world, in hospitals, substance abuse programs, industry, and most branches of the U.S. government. He is the author of several publications, including Chalk Talks on Alcohol, published by Harper & Row in 1982, which is still in print. Fr. Martin and Father Martin's Ashley co-founder Mae Abraham raised funds to buy and renovate Oakington, the estate owned by the widow of U.S. Senator Millard Tydings located on the Chesapeake Bay near Havre de Grace. The center, which opened in 1983, has since provided treatment to more than 40,000 people suffering from the disease of addiction and has provided program services to their families. Two years after Father Martin's Ashley opened its doors, Forbes magazine ranked it as one of the top ten addiction treatment facilities in the country. Today, patients come from the East Coast and across the U.S. to the 85-bed facility, which has a reputation for treating alcohol and drug addiction and relapse with respect for the dignity of each individual who enters its doors. In 1972, the U.S. Navy filmed Martin's "The Blackboard Talk," which they then dubbed "The Chalk Talk." It became known throughout the U.S. military and established Fr. Martin as a recognized leader in the addiction treatment field. In 1991, Fr. Martin was invited by Pope John Paul II to participate in the Vatican's International Conference on Drugs and Alcohol. He made four trips to Russia under the auspices of the International Institute on Alcohol Education and Training, and also traveled to Switzerland and Poland to speak to Alcoholics Anonymous groups as well as to addiction counselors in training. Fr. Martin's honors and awards include the Andrew White Medal from Loyola College, Baltimore, for his contributions to the general welfare of the citizenry of Maryland; Rutgers University's Summer School of Alcohol Studies' Distinguished Service Award (1988); and Norman Vincent Peale Award (1992). Born the fourth of seven children in Baltimore on October 12, 1924, Fr. Martin graduated from Loyola High School in 1942, where he was valedictorian. He then attended Loyola College (1942-44). He studied for the priesthood at St. Mary's Seminary and St. Mary's Roland Park in Baltimore (1944-48), and was ordained a priest of the Society of Saint Sulpice, whose mission is to train and educate seminarians, in 1948. Fr. Martin held teaching positions at St. Joseph's College in Mountain View, CA (1948-56) and St. Charles College, Catonsville, MD (1956-59). In 1958, Fr. Martin began his recovery from alcoholism. Following treatment, he worked as a lecturer and educator in the Division of Alcohol Control for the state of Maryland prior to founding Father Martin's Ashley. "As Father Martin passes through death to life, his legacy lives on at Ashley as we continue his mission of hope and healing," said Fr. Hushen. "Truly, the world is a better place for his having been here." Fr. Martin is survived by Mae and Tommy Abraham, with whom he lived for more than 30 years, siblings Dorothy, Frances, and Edward; and numerous nieces, nephews, and their children. The viewing will be held on Thursday, March 12, from 1 pm to 9 pm at St. Mary's Seminary in Baltimore. Fr. Martin's Mass of Celebration of the Resurrection will be held on Friday, March 13 at 10 am at the Basilica of the National Shrine of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary, Cathedral Street, Baltimore, Maryland. Interment will be private. Expressions of remembrance may be e-mailed to ashley.marketing@fmashley.com or mailed to Father Martin Remembrance, Father Martin's Ashley, 800 Tydings Lane, Havre de Grace, MD 21078. They will be posted on the Father Martin's Ashley Web site at http://www.fathermartinsashley.org In lieu of flowers, donations may be made to Father Martin's Ashley treatment center, 800 Tydings Lane, Havre de Grace, MD 21078 or to The Associated Sulpicians of the U.S., 5408 Roland Avenue, Baltimore, MD 21210. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5566. . . . . . . . . . . . Father Joseph Martin''s passing From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/9/2009 8:55:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: "John Blair" (jblair at wmis.net) http://www.fathermartinsashley.org/ In remembrance of Father Martin... Father Joseph C. Martin, S.S. - October 12, 1924 - March 9, 2009. "My name is Joe Martin, and I'm an alcoholic." Father Martin first uttered this statement in 1958, when he was in treatment for alcoholism at the Guest House, what would prove to be a refuge for him from his drinking and a turning point in his life. His personal journey in recovery prompted a celebrated career in which his only aim was to ease the suffering of individuals and families, around the world, affected by addiction. He was born on October 12, 1924 in Baltimore, Maryland . He quickly developed a fondness for religion and faith. People fondly recall his special story-telling ability and wonderful sense of humor. In 1942, Father Martin graduated from Loyola College and entered St. Mary's seminary. He was ordained a priest in 1948 and underwent rigorous training to become a Sulpician, a highly regarded teaching society within the Catholic Church. After losing this coveted distinction as a result of his drinking, only in sobriety did he regain this title. Father Martin taught minor seminarians and fulfilled several teaching roles within the church. It was very evident that he possessed a special ability to educate but his drinking became very troublesome and he was eventually directed to seek help at the Guest House. Father Martin frequently cited the tremendous impact his mentor Austin Ripley had on his journey in recovery. Many of Father Martin's teachings originated in concepts he learned while at the Guest House. His enthusiasm for sobriety coupled with his passion for teaching evolved into an unending quest to ease the suffering of individuals and families affected by addiction. In his career, spanning more than 35 years, Father Martin was catapulted into international acclaim as a prized speaker and educator on addiction and recovery thru the Twelve Steps. He founded Kelly Productions in 1972 and used it as a platform to capture the minds and hearts of millions of people. Father Martin's message is no less relevant today than in 1972. He will continue to inspire love, service, helpfulness to others, and recovery through the use of his films, audio lectures, and books. In his last year, he shared his vision that he can be remembered so that the still suffering individual affected by addiction might benefit from his God-inspired message of hope. VIEWING: Thursday, March 12th, 2009 From 1p-9p St. Mary's Seminary Laubacher Hall 5400 Roland Avenue Baltimore, MD 21210 FUNERAL MASS: Friday, March 13th, 2009 10 am The Basilica of the National Shrine of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary 409 Cathedral Street Baltimore, MD 21201 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5567. . . . . . . . . . . . Hear Father Martin speak on YouTube From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/9/2009 9:34:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: "John Blair" (jblair at wmis.net) Father Joe Martin's Channel on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/user/fatherjoemartin IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5568. . . . . . . . . . . . Archival repositories From: kauaihulahips . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/9/2009 3:11:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII What A.A. Areas at present have free-standing repositories for their archives? Could people from some of these already existing archival repositories send me information about what they have for their Area? For example, what is the square footage? how much is the rent? utilities? area annual budget/beakdown? What does the facility look like? Any tips for our new area standing chair and our new archivist? (kauaihulahips at yahoo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5569. . . . . . . . . . . . Dick Perez from the Akron Area From: juan.aa98 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/9/2009 12:47:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Where can I find the full story on Dick Perez from the Akron Area? What books or documents are there which would mention Dick Perez or talk about his life in AA? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5570. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill Wilson''s meditation practices and guided meditation From: James Flynn . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/8/2009 7:56:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Thank you for this, it has long been my belief that Bill W's spirituality is best defined as New Age Spirituality, rather than fundamentalist Christian spirituality. This information helps to confirm my suspicions that Bill was actually very eclectic in his approach to spirituality and might even been seen as a heretic by more traditional religious sects and denominations. Sincerely, Jim F. - - - - From the moderator: and along this same line, one of the first prominent Protestant theologians to give approval to the new A.A. movement was HARRY EMERSON FOSDICK, the author of the famous anti-fundamentalist sermon "SHALL THE FUNDAMENTALISTS WIN?" Pass It On page 201: "Dr. Harry Emerson Fosdick, the highly respected minister of the Riverside Church, warmly approved an advance copy [of the Big Book] and promised to review the book when it was published." Harry Emerson Fosdick from Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Emerson_Fosdick Fosdick was the most prominent liberal ... minister of the early 20th Century .... Fosdick became a central figure in the conflict between fundamentalist and liberal forces within American Protestantism in the 1920s and 1930s. While at First Presbyterian Church, on May 21, 1922, he delivered his famous sermon “Shall the Fundamentalists Win?” in which he defended the modernist position. In that sermon, he presented the Bible as a record of the unfolding of God’s will, not as the literal Word of God. He saw the history of Christianity as one of development, progress, and gradual change. To the fundamentalists, this was rank apostasy, and the battle lines were drawn. The General Assembly of the Presbyterian Church, U.S.A. (Northern) in 1923 charged his local presbytery to conduct an investigation of his views .... Fosdick escaped probable censure at a formal trial by the 1924 General Assembly by resigning from the pulpit in 1924. He was immediately hired as pastor of a Baptist church whose most famous member was John D. Rockefeller, Jr., who then funded the Riverside Church in Manhattan's Morningside Heights area overlooking the Hudson River, where Fosdick became pastor as soon as the doors opened in October 1930. Rockefeller had funded the nation-wide distribution of "Shall the Fundamentalists Win?" although with a more cautious title, "The New Knowledge and the Christian Faith." [Fosdick] is also the author of the hymn, "God of Grace and God of Glory." Fosdick's book A Guide to Understanding the Bible traces the beliefs of the people who wrote the Bible, from the ancient beliefs of the Hebrews, which he regarded as practically pagan, to the faith and hopes of the New Testament writers. His brother, Raymond Fosdick, was essentially in charge of philanthropy for John D. Rockefeller, Jr. Fosdick reviewed the first edition of Alcoholics Anonymous in 1939, giving it his approval. - - - - Harry Emerson Fosdick’s famous anti-fundamentalist sermon (1922): "SHALL THE FUNDAMENTALISTS WIN?" Full text of the sermon given at http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/5070/ - - - - --- On Thu, 3/5/09, mdingle76 wrote: From: mdingle76 Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Bill Wilson's meditation practices and guided meditation To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, March 5, 2009, 3:59 PM One man who influenced Bill Wilson greatly was Gerald Heard. Gerald was the man who introduced Bill to Aldous Huxley. I suspect that Gene Exman (the religious editor over at Harper that Bill visited with the first 2 chapters of the Big Book)introduced Bill to Gerald. Anyway, Bill (and Lois) first visited Heard on a trip to California in 1941. Heard had been practicing yoga and earnestly studying the Scriptures of many of the world's great religions. Heard wrote many books on the subject of God, religion and also UFO's (a subject that Bill was very interested in and would talk to Heard about at lengths). One of Heard's books even made it into Dr. Bob's library â” "A Preface to Prayer." Tom Powers often said that Heard was one of Bill's sponsors. Heard was particularly influenced by Sri Ramakrishna and Heard donated his Monastery, Trabucco Canyon, to the Vedanta Society of Southern California, to be run by Swami Prabhavananda. You can also read Gerald Heard's article in the AA Grapevine called "The Search for Ecstasy." He also wrote articles about AA published in sources outside the Grapevine. Gerald (and Dr. Cohen) oversaw the LSD sessions that both Tom and Bill experienced. (It was Tom and Bill who were sent to California on AA Headquarters business to get AA out on the big screen â” a story for a different day.) Matt D. ____________ _________ _________ FROM THE MODERATOR: WIKIPEDIA SAYS http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Gerald_Heard "Henry Fitzgerald Heard commonly called Gerald Heard (October 6, 1889 - August 14, 1971) was a historian, science writer, educator, and philosopher. He wrote many articles and over 35 books. Heard was a guide and mentor to numerous well-known Americans, including Clare Boothe Luce and Bill Wilson, co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous, in the 1950s and 1960s." - - - - Message 5228 from ArtSheehan@msn. com (ArtSheehan at msn.com) British radio commentator Gerald Heard introduced Bill W to Aldous Huxley and British psychiatrists Humphrey Osmond and Abram Hoffer. Bill joined with Heard and Huxley and first took LSD in California on August 29, 1956. Among those invited to experiment with LSD (and who accepted) were Nell Wing, Father Ed Dowling, Sam Shoemaker and Lois Wilson. Marty M and other AA members participated in New York (under medical supervision by a psychiatrist from Roosevelt Hospital). - - - - Message 4806 from jlobdell54@hotmail. com (jlobdell54 at hotmail.com) I have recently seen on a couple of AA-related history sites a statement that H. F. Heard was a pen-name for Aldous Huxley. In fact H. F. Heard was Henry FitzGerald Heard (1889-1971) who also wrote as Gerald Heard. He was a friend of Aldous Huxley (and of Bill Wilson) but he certainly was not Aldous Huxley. ____________ _________ _________ MATT D. IS RESPONDING TO MESSAGE 5559 from (Baileygc23 at aol.com) > Bill W and his long time problems with > depression and other things brings to mind his > interactions with Dr Earle and Dr Earle's > comments on their relationship, plus > Dr Earle and his search for serenity in Asia. > > Since Dr Earle's attempt to find solace in > Eastern ideas had Bill W's interest, it could > add another aspect to Bill W as well as > Dr Earle's efforts at meditation practices. > > George > > - - - - > > From the moderator, for more about > Dr. Earle M., whom George refers to, see: > > http://silkworth. net/aabiography/ earlem.html > > Biography: "Physician Heal Thyself!" > Dr. Earle M., San Francisco Bay Area, CA. > (p. 393 in 2nd edition, p. 345 in 3rd > edition, p. 301 in the 4th edition.) > > "During his first year in A.A. he went to New > York and met Bill W. They became very close > and talked frequently both on the phone and > in person. He frequently visited Bill at his > home, Stepping Stones. He called Bill one > of his sponsors, and said there was hardly a > topic they did not discuss in detail. He took > a Fifth Step with Bill. And Bill often talked > over his depressions with Earle." > > "In a search for serenity Earle studied and > practiced many forms of religion: Hinduism, > Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism, and ancestor > worship." > > GFC > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5571. . . . . . . . . . . . Icky the Dynamite man From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/9/2009 6:34:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I'm trying to get more info on Icky From Houston: Page 80 AACOA (the dynamite man). What's his date of sobriety, home group, etc., does anyone know? I have a 1st. edit. Stools & Bottles signed by Ed Webster and inscribed to Icky, dated 1961. The gentleman I purchased it from told me he got it in Houston. I'd like to know more about Icky so that I can pretend to be knowledgeable when the book is displayed. Thank You, Shakey Mike Gwirtz IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5572. . . . . . . . . . . . Anyone know anything about the first prison group? From: priscilla_semmens . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/9/2009 10:37:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The first prison AA Group, we are told, was formed at San Quentin. Who formed it? When was it formed? Why was it formed? etc. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5573. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill Wilson''s meditation practices and guided meditation From: bob gordon . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/10/2009 3:40:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Here's the relevant part of Fosdick's review: The core of their whole procedure is religious. They are convinced that for the hopeless alcoholic there is only one way out - the expulsion of his obsession by a Power greater than himself. Let it be said at once that there is nothing partisan or sectarian about this religious experience. Agnostics and atheists, along with Catholics, Jews and Protestants, tell their story of discovering the Power Greater Than Themselves. "WHO ARE YOU TO SAY THAT THERE IS N0 GOD," one atheist in this group heard a voice say when, hospitalized for alcoholism, he faced the utter hopelessness of his condition. Nowhere is the tolerance and open-mindedness of the book more evident than in its treatment of this central matter on which the cure of all these men and women has depended. They are not partisans of any particular form of organized religion, although they strongly recommend that some religious fellowship be found by their participants. By religion they mean an experience which they personally know and which has saved them from their slavery, when psychiatry and medicine had failed They agree that each man must have his own way of conceiving God, but of God Himself they are utterly sure, and their stories of victory in consequence are a notable addition to William James' "Varieties of Religious Experience." Although the book has the accent of reality and is written with unusual intelligence and skill, humor and modesty mitigating what could easily have been a strident and harrowing tale. - Harry Emerson Fosdick - - - - On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 7:56 AM, James Flynn wrote: > Thank you for this, it has long been my > belief that Bill W's spirituality is best > defined as New Age Spirituality, rather than > fundamentalist Christian spirituality. > > This information helps to confirm my > suspicions that Bill was actually very > eclectic in his approach to spirituality > and might even been seen as a heretic by > more traditional religious sects and > denominations. > > Sincerely, Jim F. > > - - - - > > From the moderator: and along this same > line, one of the first prominent Protestant > theologians to give approval to the new > A.A. movement was HARRY EMERSON FOSDICK, > the author of the famous anti-fundamentalist > sermon "SHALL THE FUNDAMENTALISTS WIN?" > > Pass It On page 201: "Dr. Harry Emerson > Fosdick, the highly respected minister of > the Riverside Church, warmly approved an > advance copy [of the Big Book] and promised > to review the book when it was published." > > Harry Emerson Fosdick from Wikipedia: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Emerson_Fosdick > > Fosdick was the most prominent liberal ... > minister of the early 20th Century .... > Fosdick became a central figure in the > conflict between fundamentalist and liberal > forces within American Protestantism in the > 1920s and 1930s. While at First Presbyterian > Church, on May 21, 1922, he delivered his > famous sermon “Shall the Fundamentalists Win?” > in which he defended the modernist position. > In that sermon, he presented the Bible as a > record of the unfolding of God’s will, not as > the literal Word of God. He saw the history > of Christianity as one of development, > progress, and gradual change. To the > fundamentalists, this was rank apostasy, > and the battle lines were drawn. > > The General Assembly of the Presbyterian > Church, U.S.A. (Northern) in 1923 charged his > local presbytery to conduct an investigation > of his views .... Fosdick escaped probable > censure at a formal trial by the 1924 General > Assembly by resigning from the pulpit in 1924. > He was immediately hired as pastor of a Baptist > church whose most famous member was John D. > Rockefeller, Jr., who then funded the Riverside > Church in Manhattan's Morningside Heights area > overlooking the Hudson River, where Fosdick > became pastor as soon as the doors opened in > October 1930. > > Rockefeller had funded the nation-wide > distribution of "Shall the Fundamentalists Win?" > although with a more cautious title, "The New > Knowledge and the Christian Faith." > > [Fosdick] is also the author of the hymn, > "God of Grace and God of Glory." > > Fosdick's book A Guide to Understanding the > Bible traces the beliefs of the people who > wrote the Bible, from the ancient beliefs of > the Hebrews, which he regarded as practically > pagan, to the faith and hopes of the New > Testament writers. > > His brother, Raymond Fosdick, was essentially > in charge of philanthropy for John D. Rockefeller, > Jr. > > Fosdick reviewed the first edition of > Alcoholics Anonymous in 1939, giving it > his approval. > > - - - - > > Harry Emerson Fosdick’s famous > anti-fundamentalist sermon (1922): > > "SHALL THE FUNDAMENTALISTS WIN?" > > Full text of the sermon given at > http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/5070/ > > - - - - > > > --- On Thu, 3/5/09, mdingle76 > > wrote: > > From: mdingle76 > > Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Bill Wilson's meditation practices and > guided meditation > To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > Date: Thursday, March 5, 2009, 3:59 PM > > > One man who influenced Bill Wilson greatly was > Gerald Heard. Gerald was the man who introduced > Bill to Aldous Huxley. I suspect that Gene > Exman (the religious editor over at Harper > that Bill visited with the first 2 chapters > of the Big Book)introduced Bill to Gerald. > > Anyway, Bill (and Lois) first visited Heard on > a trip to California in 1941. Heard had been > practicing yoga and earnestly studying the > Scriptures of many of the world's great > religions. Heard wrote many books on the > subject of God, religion and also UFO's (a > subject that Bill was very interested in and > would talk to Heard about at lengths). One of > Heard's books even made it into Dr. Bob's > library — "A Preface to Prayer." > > Tom Powers often said that Heard was one of > Bill's sponsors. Heard was particularly > influenced by Sri Ramakrishna and Heard > donated his Monastery, Trabucco Canyon, to > the Vedanta Society of Southern California, > to be run by Swami Prabhavananda. > > You can also read Gerald Heard's article in the > AA Grapevine called "The Search for Ecstasy." > He also wrote articles about AA published in > sources outside the Grapevine. > > Gerald (and Dr. Cohen) oversaw the LSD > sessions that both Tom and Bill experienced. > (It was Tom and Bill who were sent to > California on AA Headquarters business to > get AA out on the big screen — a story for > a different day.) > > Matt D. > > ____________ _________ _________ > > FROM THE MODERATOR: WIKIPEDIA SAYS > > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Gerald_Heard > > "Henry Fitzgerald Heard commonly called Gerald > Heard (October 6, 1889 - August 14, 1971) was > a historian, science writer, educator, and > philosopher. He wrote many articles and over > 35 books. Heard was a guide and mentor to > numerous well-known Americans, including > Clare Boothe Luce and Bill Wilson, co-founder > of Alcoholics Anonymous, in the 1950s and > 1960s." > > - - - - > > Message 5228 from ArtSheehan@msn. com > (ArtSheehan at msn.com) > > British radio commentator Gerald Heard > introduced Bill W to Aldous Huxley and > British psychiatrists Humphrey Osmond and > Abram Hoffer. > > Bill joined with Heard and Huxley and first > took LSD in California on August 29, 1956. > > Among those invited to experiment with LSD > (and who accepted) were Nell Wing, Father > Ed Dowling, Sam Shoemaker and Lois Wilson. > Marty M and other AA members participated in > New York (under medical supervision by a > psychiatrist from Roosevelt Hospital). > > - - - - > > Message 4806 from jlobdell54@hotmail. com > (jlobdell54 at hotmail.com) > > I have recently seen on a couple of AA-related > history sites a statement that H. F. Heard was > a pen-name for Aldous Huxley. > > In fact H. F. Heard was Henry FitzGerald Heard > (1889-1971) who also wrote as Gerald Heard. > > He was a friend of Aldous Huxley (and of Bill > Wilson) but he certainly was not Aldous > Huxley. > ____________ _________ _________ > > MATT D. IS RESPONDING TO MESSAGE 5559 from > (Baileygc23 at aol.com) > > > Bill W and his long time problems with > > depression and other things brings to mind his > > interactions with Dr Earle and Dr Earle's > > comments on their relationship, plus > > Dr Earle and his search for serenity in Asia. > > > > Since Dr Earle's attempt to find solace in > > Eastern ideas had Bill W's interest, it could > > add another aspect to Bill W as well as > > Dr Earle's efforts at meditation practices. > > > > George > > > > - - - - > > > > From the moderator, for more about > > Dr. Earle M., whom George refers to, see: > > > > http://silkworth. net/aabiography/ earlem.html > > > > Biography: "Physician Heal Thyself!" > > Dr. Earle M., San Francisco Bay Area, CA. > > (p. 393 in 2nd edition, p. 345 in 3rd > > edition, p. 301 in the 4th edition.) > > > > "During his first year in A.A. he went to New > > York and met Bill W. They became very close > > and talked frequently both on the phone and > > in person. He frequently visited Bill at his > > home, Stepping Stones. He called Bill one > > of his sponsors, and said there was hardly a > > topic they did not discuss in detail. He took > > a Fifth Step with Bill. And Bill often talked > > over his depressions with Earle." > > > > "In a search for serenity Earle studied and > > practiced many forms of religion: Hinduism, > > Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism, and ancestor > > worship." > > > > GFC > > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5574. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Icky the Dynamite man From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/10/2009 11:26:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hey Mike E. D. "Icky" Sheridan was the Panel 1 Delegate from the Houston, Texas Area in 1951 (he resided at 5020 Griggs Rd) and served on the Conference Agenda Committee. Icky later moved to Dallas, Texas (he resided at 4569 Lorraine Ave) and became the first Class B Trustee from Texas serving from 1955 to 1959. He replaced Earl Treat and was designated as "Second V.P." Records from GSO report him as passing away on 9/23/1963. I can't pin down the date/year when he moved from Houston to Dallas. The 1957 final Conference report noted that: "Delegates from Oregon, Northern Minnesota, Quebec (Canada), Northeast Texas and South Florida participated in a provocative panel session on Clubhouses under the chairmanship of Icky S, a member of the Board of Trustees. Emphasizing the importance of separating the functions of clubs and groups, Icky summed up the general feeling of the participants by declaring that, in AA, when you put your heart rather than your brains into a project, "You can go a long, long, way." In 1958 Icky was elected as Vice Chairman of the General Service Board. The 1958 final Conference report contained a "GSO Policy Committee" report written by Icky who also served then as chairman of the committee. Icky is discussed by Bill W on page 80 in AA Comes of Age: "When I think of explosions I always think of my friend Icky. Down in Houston, Texas, they call him the "Dynamite Man." Icky is an expert on explosives, on demolition. He was in the rear of the Russian retreat blowing up bridges during the war. After the war he started to ply his trade again, and I guess he fell into the same error that a poor fellow in London did the other day. This alcoholic Londoner turned up before a magistrate. He had been picked up stiff drunk. His bottle was empty. The magistrate said, "Did you drink it all," "Oh, yes." "Why did you drink it all," "Because I lost the cork." Down there in Houston, it must have been one of those days when our friend Icky lost his cork. Icky was commissioned to blow up a certain pier in Houston Harbor, and he blew up the wrong one! There is a passing reference to Icky S in Bob P's "unofficial AA history" where he writes: "Esther E. took over as leader of the Houston group in 1942, and Hortense L. succeeded her when she moved to Dallas. The group met in the basement of the Ambassador Hotel in 1941. During the war years it met in other places: the M.& M. Building, Franklin St., Milam St., Dooley St., and finally beginning in 1946 at 3511 Travis St. where it remained. In early 1949, the majority of the Travis St. group broke away to form the Montrose Group. Among those that remained were Ed H., Angus McL., Claire W., Anna D., Mildred C., and Icky S." On July 1, 1960 Icky Chaired a session at the 25th Anniversary Convention at Long Beach, California that was titled "12 Speakers on the 12 Steps." Cheers Arthur PS - I have a 1954 photo of Icky which I'll send you by separate email. -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Shakey1aa@aol.com Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 9:34 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Cc: Shakey1aa@aol.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Icky the Dynamite man I'm trying to get more info on Icky From Houston: Page 80 AACOA (the dynamite man). What's his date of sobriety, home group, etc., does anyone know? I have a 1st. edit. Stools & Bottles signed by Ed Webster and inscribed to Icky, dated 1961. The gentleman I purchased it from told me he got it in Houston. I'd like to know more about Icky so that I can pretend to be knowledgeable when the book is displayed. Thank You, Shakey Mike Gwirtz IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5575. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dick Perez from the Akron Area From: Ernest Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/10/2009 10:32:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Juan, I did some brief interviews of Dick back in the mid-1970s. Because of the anonymity tradition and the fact that my dissertation/book "Not-God" was a public document, those few references are cited in the endnotes as "Dick P." and (usually) the date of our conversation. Happy hunting. I will appreciate it if you will share with me (and the group) the results of your efforts. In retrospect, I wish I had said more about Dick's self-consciousness about being Hispanic and fearing that he would not be accepted in AA. Dick told me that even though many used slang, un-p.c. nicknames (e.g. "Spic") in referring to him, everyone in AA was always helpful with rides to and from meetings, etc. I hope you can learn more and tell Dick P.'s story: I remember it as vivid testimony not so much to the "tolerance" of early AA, but as deep evidence of the genuine spirituality of many/most of the early members in the Akron/Cleveland area. And, of course, of Dick's own courage and craving for sobriety. ernie kurtz - - - - On Mar 9, 2009, at 12:47 AM, juan.aa98 wrote: > Where can I find the full story on Dick Perez > from the Akron Area? > > What books or documents are there which would > mention Dick Perez or talk about his life in AA? > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5576. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dick Perez from the Akron Area From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/10/2009 7:12:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dick Perez was from Cleveland and as far as I know was the first person to translate the Big Book into Spanish. Dick was Mexican and according to Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers was in this country illegally and helped carry the message back to Mexico. I met Dick once back in 1982 when he attended Lois W.'s long-termer's party. --- On Mon, 3/9/09, juan.aa98 wrote: From: juan.aa98 Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Dick Perez from the Akron Area To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, March 9, 2009, 12:47 AM Where can I find the full story on Dick Perez from the Akron Area? What books or documents are there which would mention Dick Perez or talk about his life in AA? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5577. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Mottos on old anniversary chips From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/28/2009 4:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Chips/medallions/coins/doubloons/tokens have not been produced by A.A., so whatever is put on them is a manufacturers' decision. There are no official A.A. chips, so any changes were effected by people outside of the Fellowship, and, hence, have very little to do with it. "To thine own self be true is from Shakespeare," for that matter. Tommy H in Baton Rouge - - - - From: "Ben Humphreys" (blhump272 at sctv.coop) I go back to 1975 and my first on says recovery, service and unity. It may be where the group bought the chips. All my early ones came from Bright Star. - - - - From: James Flynn (jdf10487 at yahoo.com) Many of mine say "To Thine Own Self Be True" and "Unity, Service, Recovery" - - - - Original message #5552 from (il22993us at yahoo.com) My father received his first chip sometime in the late 1960's or 70's. The chip says: "recover, serve, unite" rather than "recovery, service, unity" (like the chips we give out today). His 2nd year chip has what we have now. Does anyone know what year the words changed? Was there a pattern here? Thanks! Carole, DOS: 07-03-2006 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5578. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Royalties for Grapevine related literature From: stockholmfellowship . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/10/2009 4:54:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The AA Grapevine is discussed in the latest issue of Box 459, including that the Grapevine is self-supporting: "In contrast to G.S.O., which receives group contributions to support group services, the Grapevine does not accept contributions from individuals or groups, and accepts donations only for a fund set up to provide subscrip- tions for inmates or other A.A.s who cannot afford the cost. Its financial support comes entirely from sales of the magazine and related materials, such as The Language of the Heart—the collected Grapevine writings of Bill W." Though, the question remains, does Bill W's estate receives royalties from "The Language of the Heart" or other writings of the Grapevine? Or, rather, does anyone receive any royalties from the Grapevine? To read the lastest Box 459, you can download it at http://ddslinks.aaws.org/default.aspx?p=BOX459&e=FebMar09&l=en - - - - From: "bty934414" (normansobriety at btinternet.com) Who would pay to have the grapevine printed online ? from Norrie F. in Scotland - - - - From: John Barton (jax760 at yahoo.com) A Historical Fact: Profits from the sale of literature have been used since day one to support the work which includes operations and carrying the message. This goes back to the very first profits on the big book that supported the foundation office and the creation of phamplets (even before the shareholders in the book got their money back). John B P.S. The removal of the staples is so the magazine can be brought into the prisons (where it is needed). IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5579. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Anyone know anything about the first prison group? From: Phil McG . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/10/2009 1:30:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII AA meetings in prisons were first started in 1941 by CT Duffy, the Warden at San Quentin. Check out his book: SAN QUENTIN, The Story of a Prison by C T Duffy (1951). You can purchase it on-line and really good libraries still carry it. Here are a couple of web sites that briefly discuss the history: http://www.handinorcal.org/AboutPage/About.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Quentin_State_Prison Phil - - - - From: "Lee Carroll, CPA" (FriendLeeCPA at msn.com) Warden Clinton Duffy spoke at the First International AA Conference in Cleveland, July 29, 1950. In it he shares that: - he had been watching AA on the street - San Quentin was in the process of inititating a new type of rehabilitation -he realized punishment was not enough. - First meeting at SQ was in 1942 - Twenty inmates and several outside guests, many of whom had never been behind such walls before and were awed by the surroundings. - Most inmates hadn't seen a woman or civilian clothes for a long time. - Duffy says the tension was broken when an outside guest, whose name he couldn't remember ("...and wouldn't mention if I could,") went up to the podium 'with a smile on his face that radiated an air of friendliness - I'll never forget his opening words: "Fellows," he said, looking out over the stiff audience, "before we start talking about AA I have a confession to make, I want to tell you that, but for the grace of a power greater than myself I would be sitting out there with you today listening to someone else make this speech." - Duffy quotes more that I wont write out, but he says the tension was eased and it became a podium participation mtng. - Skeptics had told Duffy that AA was a "useless fad," and that "SQ would go off louder than nitroglycerin if he allowed women AA's to mix with the inmates." - Not so said Duffy. There was never an "off color remark." - At the end of the first meeting, says Duffy one of the former skeptics chose the opportunity to assure him that AA at SQ would be a success. - SQ did make mistakes; a) issued diplomas for completing 12-step study course b) withheld AA from men who did not "appear" to be alcoholic c) exerted pressure on men "diagnosed" as alcoholic. Lee (805) 938-1981 - - - - From: "J. Lobdell" (jlobdell54 at hotmail.com) On p. 59 of AA Today: a special publication by the AA Grapevine commemorating the 25th Anniversary of Alcoholics Anonymous (copyright 1960, 1988), Warden Clinton Duffy says (or writes), "When, in 1941, San Quentin pioneered the first Alcoholics Anonymous group behind any prison walls, I said, 'If the program will help one man, I want to start it.' In these eighteen years, hundreds have been helped." So, for a date, 1941 (probably later in the year as it isn't yet nineteen years when he's speaking), and for a founder, Warden Duffy. And as to the why, "If the program will help one man, I want to start it." - - - - From: kentedavis@aol.com (kentedavis at aol.com) There is a good report from the Northern California Council of Alcoholics Anonymous. It was this group that was instrumental in forming the group so this is about the best account of its beginnings. Kent D 8.8.88 - - - - From: Ernest Kurtz (kurtzern at umich.edu) Priscilla, I suggest you pass this question on to the AA archivist at the GSO in New York: there is a wealth of material there. ernie ************************************ Original message #5572 from (priscilla_semmens at yahoo.com) The first prison AA Group, we are told, was formed at San Quentin. Who formed it? When was it formed? Why was it formed? etc. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5580. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: the first prison group? NOT San Quentin From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/9/2009 7:37:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The first prison group was definitely not San Quentin! The Philadelphia Mother group was taking meetings into Philadelphia prisons two years before S. Q. and have continuously carried on that tradition. GSO in NY has told us that, even when substant- iated, they will not change this part of AA history in their publications. A member of the Archives committee of the local Intergroup asked them several years back. I also heard about another prison group about the same time (1940) in NY or NJ. Perhaps someone from those areas can provide more accurate information. Yours in Service, Shakey Mike Gwirtz IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5581. . . . . . . . . . . . Archival Repositories and Hints for AA Archivists From: Mike Breedlove . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/10/2009 6:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Greetings everyone, and especially kauaihulahips Thank you for those wonderful questions. I am certainly no authority on all (or even many) of the questions asked in kauaihulahips' email, but do have some information the Area One (Alabama-Northwest Florida) archives committee collected in a survey in 2006. The information is in tables format and is detailed below. Other area archives were contacted and graciously supplied the information detailed below. No personal information is shared. Any area archives committee that wishes to share more informa- tion, or to update the present information, (hint, hint) would you please forward that information to me at the email address of mikeb415@knology.net (mikeb415 at knology.net) If you wish to contact a specific archives or archives committee, you might wish to contact the AA Archives, located at the General Services Office. They may have the information you need. As a general policy, the AA Archives tends not to participate directly in forums such as this but the staff are more than willing to help any one who asks for help. Of course I am willing to share any information or knowledge that others have so freely shared with me. Just contact me at mikeb415@knology.net (mikeb415 at knology.net) The one overall comment to be hazarded is that any one looking to establish an archival repository of any kind needs to closely review the following. At the AA website, if you click on Resources for Local A.A. Archivists you can see links to the following really useful pieces of literature, all of which have very recently been updated: Archives Guidelines - MG-17 .pdf The direct link is http://www.aa.org/lang/en/en_pdfs/mg-17_archives.pdf (4 pages) The A.A. Archives - F-47 .pdf The direct link is http://www.aa.org/lang/en/en_pdfs/f-47_theaaarchives.pdf (2 pages) Oral Histories Kit .pdf - The direct links is http://www.aa.org/lang/en/en_pdfs/en_oralhistorieskit.pdf (18 pages) Many areas choose to conduct recorded oral history interviews with longtimers, to record their strength, hope, and experience for future generations. This kit contains tips, instructions, suggested questions, forms and templates, as well as a list of additional resources. Yours in service, Mike B. Area One Archivist (Like others in AA, I have some experience and formal training as a professional archivist) *************************************** Area # Archives facility and details Financial Support Archives Cmte? Archivist? Volume of Records Volunteers & Work *************************************** 01, Alabama- NW Florida 10 x 10 ft. somewhat climate controlled store room $2,100/year for rent for storage ($1,500) and supplies ($600). No foundation. Yes Yes 200 cubic ft., of which 30 cubic ft. are actual archives and 150 cubic ft. are special collections Just getting started, but we do work one afternoon every area assembly with one or two volunteers - - - - 06, Coastal North California Yes, at an AA Meeting facility, 8 x 20 room, with tape library $10,000/year, with $7200 for rent, 2100 for travel and conferences, 700 for supplies. No foundation Yes, also a tape librarian Yes 120-200 cf, including shelves lateral files, file cabinets shelves, reel-to-reel tapes, cassettes, etc. Volunteers work one/month Former delegate participates - - - - 10, Colorado Basement of a church in Denver, ca. 15 x 20 $600/year for rent and $600/year for operating expenses and the traveling displays are funded by Area. AA members contribute financially No foundation. Yes Yes 70 cf, including file cabinets and more Office open once a month for 2 hours, mainly the archives chair Lots of interviews with long timers - - - - 15, South Florida 3x4 cubical - a rental, climate controlled facility -- records are stored in banker boxes $580 annual for storage and copies, postage of our Committee minutes. Area 15 furnishes 1 night lodging each, at Area Quarterly for the Area Archives Chair and the Alternate. No foundation Yes No 10 cf, the minutes and business records of the Area Business meetings, and Ad-hoc committees. No - - - - 16, Georgia Yes, 20 x 30 area adjacent to area office Budget from Area of $2,932. Rent and utilities included in general area office expense No foundation Yes and Steering Cmte, & delegate helping Yes Not stated, Do have display cases Mainly the archivist - - - - 18, Idaho Yes, 2 rooms for storage, 20 x 20 and 20 x 25, and 1 for ref, exhibit, 25 x 15 All funding from Area, $1,200, and from donations. Travel is reimbursed at 0.30/mile No foundation Yes & delegate helping Yes Not stated. Do have 4 file cabinets. Yes, 6-7, and they do reference work - - - - 19, Northern Illinois Yes, 15 x 15 $500 - $800/yr No foundation Yes Yes 40-50 cf, many tapes & CDs Yes, but no details Yes yes 10 cf Interview of long timers - - - - 22, Northern Indiana No $100/yr. No foundation. - - - - 27, Louisiana Yes, 12 x 24 room $1,500/year from Area and selling of items No foundation Yes Yes 288 cubic ft., with archival supplies, shelving, etc. Do reference work, exhibits, and more - - - - 32, Michigan No None from Area, some from groups and individuals No foundation. No Yes 150 cf Mainly the archivist - - - - 38, Eastern Maryland Area rents 2 rooms, 200 sq ft each, for archives, in central service bldg Area pays for rent and other expenses. Budget of $1,200/yr. No foundation. Yes Yes 6 filing cabinets and a bit more [ca. 50 cf] 2nd room is used for processing, etc. Mainly the archivist - - - - 50, Western New York Yes, rent 12 x 20 room from Central Office $500 - $1.000, contributions from groups and individuals, Presently creating a budget. No Area support. No foundation Yes and a treasurer, & very active past delegates Yes Not stated Mainly the archivist - - - - 64, Central Tennessee (Murfreesboro) Yes, Yes, we have a free-standing building. It is 25 x 45, or 1,125 square feet, concrete block and brick, two rooms. Anonymity protected. [Also gave more info on district archives in Area 64] Total budget is about $70 per month for chair person's travel expenses and $500 per year for building, & appointed an archivist & historian . Going to give him $33 per month for traveling expenses. A contractor built it on his lot and is only charging the cost of construction. Purchasing the building one year at a time by Area 64. Pay it like rent, but will be paid for in 10 years. After paid off, probably will create a foundation at that time. Yes Yes Have eight four drawer filing cabinet, plus exhibit cases, and going to get acid-free boxes, etc. Groups, districts and events pay for traveling archives Front room with display cases and log in room; back room has desks, with strictly volunteer work force, webmaster does a lot of work (2 or 3 days a week from 10 until 3) and recruits well. - - - - 65, North Texas No $600/year for travel, etc., and groups and events often at least partially reimburse travel and display costs. No foundation. Yes No 20 cf Mainly the archivist - - - - 71, Virginia Office space of one room is rented (size not mentioned) Area pays for office expenses, archivist's travel and incidentals, and archives cmte travel and yearly archives open house (amount not mentioned). No foundation Yes Yes Not stated Yes, but no details - - - - 72, Western Washington Yes, 750 sq ft, shelving and containers used $700.00/qtr, $300.00/upkeep, and area pays travel No foundation Yes, cmte chair and Steering Cmte Yes Not stated Yes, but no details - - - - 93, Central California Yes, 800 sq ft, 2 room facility $400.00/month budget from Area, with extra money for travel. Have a storage room and exhibit room. No foundation Yes Yes 50 cubic ft. Yes, but no details - - - - Akron AA Archives Archives is in Intergroup offices an do have a collection policy Self supporting, but does not say how. No foundation (as a part of Intergroup and not separately incorporated, a foundation would violate the traditions) Yes under Intergroup Yes Not stated Yes IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5582. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Archival repositories From: rick tompkins . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/9/2009 11:06:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Just a caveat to let you know that AAs are easy to please (especially archivists) but those in service and the vocal residents of the peanut galleries are reluctant to commit to spending large sums of a Delegate Area's cash. You'll have to propose the site with plenty of details. Perhaps the AA Archives at GSO can provide you more information on any of our other 91 Delegate Areas, but the costs are always relative to what the Fellowship wants to do with Archives items. My Area 20 Northern Illinois rents a 10x10x10 storage unit in a converted office building, currently a "Public Storage" space on the building's second floor. Heated, insured, dust-free, and a gated site. Unlock and open the rollup door and there's added aisle working space of six more feet to work in. It has a 10x10 window with a tarp to shield the sun and when it's pulled back there's lots of daylight. Since 1998 the Area 20 Archives have been placed there, we installed shelves, and made the space a work-friendly environment. We started the Repository at $94 per month and the current rent is $118 per month. Not too bad for a facility that's changed hands three times over the ten years it's been located there.no losses, floods, fires, or insects! 2008 = $1400 per year, paid in advance by Area funds. And its effective cost vs. value? Priceless. rick, Illinois - - - - From: "Keith" (kroloson at mindspring.com) Hello, for the State of Georgia AA, Area 16, we have a location that has 1) state office 2) book distribution center to groups and interoffices 3) refrigerated archive room, all in one location, and across from it is the hotel where the State Assemblies occur. I don't know if they can tell you the startup costs or ongoing yearly costs for archive facility, but go here to ask http://www.aageorgia.org/archives.htm and contact Archives@aageorgia.org There is quite a lot in the refrigerated room. I'm sure it has moisture-controls too. In His Service, Keith R, former District 16E PI - - - - From: Greg Hughes (glhughes227 at yahoo.com) Area 27 (State of Louisiana) has an archival repository. It is currently housed in a room at the home of a member and former delegate who now serves as the area archivist. The Archives Committee is currently looking for a permanent location. - - - - From: alan dobson (dobbo101 at yahoo.com) If poss could you also share any info you find about this with me too? Thanks. Alan D 07827 839712 - - - - Original message #5568 from (kauaihulahips at yahoo.com) What A.A. Areas at present have free-standing repositories for their archives? Could people from some of these already existing archival repositories send me information about what they have for their Area? For example, what is the square footage? how much is the rent? utilities? area annual budget/beakdown? What does the facility look like? Any tips for our new area standing chair and our new archivist? (kauaihulahips at yahoo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5583. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Royalties for Grapevine related literature From: stockholmfellowship . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/12/2009 12:29:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I wrote to the Managing Editor of the AA Grapevine to find out about royalties and if the magazines are self-seupporting. According to the Managing Editor, the AA Grapevine and La Vina are self-supporting through magazine and other product sales. If they are in the red, however, AAWS will cover the deficit; as has happened in some fiscal years. However, the business model was established with the goal of breaking even. As far as she knows, in regard to potential royalties to Bill W.'s estate, "The Language of the Heart" sales are all credited to the Grapevine's account. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5584. . . . . . . . . . . . Ralph Pfau instead of Big Book in early Spanish language AA From: juan.aa98 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/23/2009 12:19:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Ralph Pfau (Father John Doe) more widely read than Big Book in early Spanish-speaking A.A. - - - - Juan Rodriguez in California, in his researches in this area, has found that Spanish transla- tions of Fr. Ralph’s writings were used as the basis of Spanish-language A.A. in both North and South America during the years before there was a widely available Spanish translation of the Big Book. The earliest actual text which Rodriguez has found of a Spanish translation of the Big Book is from Puerto Rico and dates to 1959. As we know, the serious legal disputes which arose later on over rival translations of the Big Book in Mexico formed one of the most unseemly scandals of A.A. history. So for many years, in much of Latin America, Spanish translations of Fr. Pfau's writings were safer and more easily available. Also, Fr. Pfau's prose style was much easier to translate into Spanish than that of the Big Book, and seemed to naturally convert itself into smooth, flowing Spanish. These translations are in the form of booklets, usually about one-third to half the length of the Golden Books, giving individual sections from Fr. Pfau’s writings. So the twenty page booklet entitled "La Vida Emocional y el Mito de la Perfeccion" (“The Emotional Life and the Myth of Perfection”) was taken from "Sobriety Without End" (1957) and the twenty-four page booklet on "Resentimientos" (“Resentments”) was taken from "Sobriety and Beyond" (1955). The thirty-six page booklet entitled "Sano Juicio" (literally “Sane Judgment”) was a translation of "The Golden Book of Sanity" (1963). Fr. Ralph has continued to be a great hero among Spanish-speakers in the United States as well. The thirty-two page booklet "Liberado de las Tinieblas" (“Freed from Darkness”), a translation of Ralph’s 1958 autobiography (“Out of the Shadows”) in Look magazine, was published with a red and yellow cover much like the old circus cover of the original Big Books, in 2008 in Hollister, California, by the A.A. group La Gran Familia, to honor his memory, and there is a beautiful memorial to him on a hill top called Serenity Point at the St. Francis Retreat Center just outside of San Juan Bautista, California. Posted by Glenn C., with information supplied by Juan R. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5585. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Dick Perez from the Akron Area From: Bob McK. . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/10/2009 8:05:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Ricardo ("Dick") P. is first mentioned as on the Central Committee in Cleveland in 1945. The documentary of Central Bulletins on Compact Disk ("CB on CD") is available at nominal price thru the Cleveland District Office. Elvira at that office (216-241-7387) knew him. I have one talk by him produced by Encore http://www.12steptapes.com/ Dick was mentioned as working for the Mexican Consulate. The March '46 issue mentions him as translating the Big Book into Spanish -- although local rumor (as well as Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers) suggest his wife did most of the work. Please share your results on this search with me. It will get to our area and Cleveland Central Office Archives. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5586. . . . . . . . . . . . Dick Perez From: juan.aa98 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/13/2009 3:54:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII What is Dick Perez's sobriety date I am curious to know? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5587. . . . . . . . . . . . Plenitud magazine for AA''s in Mexico From: Juan Rodriguez . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/11/2009 9:11:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There is a recovery magazine in Mexico called Plenitud (translates to Fullness). It has more circulation and importance in AA Mexico than the Grapevine. They have done several articles on him, from interviews in Spanish that he gave. I contacted the magazine and they are about to send me all the info on him that they have from over 50 years of publication. I will post my findings. Juan R. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5588. . . . . . . . . . . . Father Martin Chalk Talk Passing From: diazeztone . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/10/2009 8:34:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII baltimoresun.com The Rev. Joseph C. Martin dies at 84 Leader in fight against alcoholism founded Father Martin's Ashley in Harford County By Frederick N. Rasmussen March 10, 2009 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The Rev. Joseph C. Martin, a recovering alcoholic and an international leader in the fight against alcoholism and substance abuse who was a co-founder of Father Martin's Ashley, a Harford County treatment center, died early yesterday of heart disease at his Havre de Grace home. He was 84. Father Martin's "Chalk Talk on Alcohol" and "No Laughing Matter" have become standard tools used by recovery centers, schools and employee assistance programs the world over. "Father Martin is an icon in the treatment industry and was one of the first to describe alcoholism in layman's terms as a disease," said Mark Hushen, president and chief executive of Father Martin's Ashley, located near Havre de Grace. "He helped thousands and thousands directly and indirectly with his message all across the world," he said. Mike Gimbel, a substance-abuse expert who was Baltimore County drug czar for 23 years and now directs an anti-steroid program at St. Joseph Medical Center, is an old friend. "Father Martin has done more to educate and treat those suffering from addiction than anyone in the past 50 years," Mr. Gimbel said yesterday. Born in Baltimore, the son of a machinist who was a heavy drinker, Father Martin was raised in Hampden. He was a 1942 graduate of Loyola High School and attended Loyola College from 1942 until 1944. He studied for the priesthood at St. Mary's Seminary & University in Roland Park from 1944 to 1948, when he was ordained a priest of the Society of St. Sulpice. Father Martin began drinking while he held teaching positions at St. Joseph's College in Mountain View, Calif., from 1948 to 1956, and later at St. Charles Seminary in Catonsville from 1956 to 1959. "I drank from the age of 24 to 34," he told The Sun in a 1992 profile. "I was afraid to go near the altar to say Mass six days a week. I did go on Sunday, but shaking all the while." After his troublesome behavior came to the attention of superiors, Father Martin was confined to a psychiatric ward in California in 1956, and after his release, returned to drinking double martinis and shots of vodka from hidden bottles in his bathroom. "It never occurred to me that perhaps there was something odd about a priest walking toward a garbage dump in the middle of the afternoon carrying two suitcases of clanking bottles," he told The Sun in an interview last year. Finally, the Archdiocese of Baltimore sent Father Martin to Guest House, a Michigan treatment center for the clergy, to get sober. By the time he left Guest House, he had regained his sobriety and found what would become his life's work. He converted his notes based on Bill Wilson's Alcoholics Anonymous famous 12-step program into a blackboard talk, which was done on an actual blackboard with chalk. During the 1960s, he began presenting it at AA meetings, rehab centers and private businesses. In 1972, his "Chalk Talk" lecture was filmed by the Navy and later was picked up by the other armed forces where it was used as mandatory addiction training for service personnel. Father Martin and his blackboard lecture were in demand all over the world, which gave rise to his crack: "Have chalk. Will travel." In 1964, he became acquainted with Lora Mae Abraham, a mother and a housewife, who was the daughter of a Baptist minister. "I've been sober 45 years. Those years when I was suffering from alcoholism were years of disgrace and shame, and especially so because I was a woman," said Mrs. Abraham. One night in 1964, Mrs. Abraham joined other members from her AA meeting at the Johns Hopkins University to hear a lecture featuring Father Martin. "When he walked out on stage and said, 'Hello, I'm Joe Martin, and I'm an alcoholic,' and that alcoholics are not bad people, they have an illness, I surrendered right there that night," she said. The two became close friends, and it was Mrs. Abraham who suggested in 1978 that Father Martin establish a center where alcoholics could come for treatment. It took seven years of fundraising before they were able to acquire Oakington, the former estate of Maryland Sen. Millard Tydings overlooking the Chesapeake Bay. The 22-bed facility opened in 1983 and was named Ashley for Mrs. Abraham's father, the Rev. Arthur Ashley. The Rev. Leonard A. Dahl, a Presbyterian clergyman, stepped down two years ago as president and CEO at Ashley. "He also took me to my first AA meeting, and I recently celebrated 36 years of sobriety," Mr. Dahl said of Father Martin. "He believed that alcoholism was his cross and hymn to carry, and he was never bitter about the disease." Father Martin, who liked to say, "Give me a blackboard, a piece of chalk and a bunch of drunks and I'm at home," always greeted new arrivals with a hopeful welcome: "The nightmare is over." Father Martin also made sure that no one was turned away because of their inability to pay for treatment that can cost $20,800 for the 28-day program. In the more than 30 years since it accepted its first patient, more than 30,000 people have been treated, including celebrities from the world of Hollywood, sports and politics. While retiring from active management in 2003, Father Martin, who had celebrated 50 years of sobriety, continued lecturing patients until late last year. Michael K. Deaver, former White House chief of staff during the Reagan administration, had been a patient and later served on Ashley's board for a decade. "When I came to Ashley, I had been with presidents, kings, popes and prime ministers, but Father Martin was the most powerful person I had ever met," Mr. Deaver said. "You see, Father has the power to change people, to make them better, to make them whole again." A Mass of Christian burial will be offered at 10 a.m. Friday at the Basilica of the National Shrine of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary, Cathedral and Mulberry streets. Father Martin is survived by a brother, Edward Martin of Lilburn, Ga.; two sisters, Frances Osborne and Dorothy Christopher, both of Baltimore; Mrs. Abraham and her husband, Tommy Abraham, with whom he lived for 30 years; and many nieces and nephews. ldpierce aabibliography.com - - - - From: "Mike Custer" (generalc at woh.rr.com) Father Martin will be missed by many. I had the pleasure of meeting him a few times at different talks and events. Thank you for your service to so many. May God bless you and yours, love to all, Mike ... IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5589. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: the first prison group? NOT San Quentin From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/11/2009 8:39:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII But isn't there a difference between a Prison Group and taking a meeting into a Prison? Moreover, since the San Quentin group was formed in 1941 and the first Philadelphia Group did not exist before 1940, it's hard to see how it could even have been taking meetings into Philadelphia prisons two years before 1941. The first institutional meetings were held at Rockland Hospital in 1939, which is New York State tho' the participants were partly from New Jersey. I think by the way that this institutional meeting may be the oldest AA meeting in the same location it was first held. - - - - From: John Pine (johncpine at gmail.com) Isn't there a difference between a self- directed, autonomous group within a prison and meetings that are brought in by outside groups or individuals? Could that be the distinction here? John Pine Richmond, Virginia - - - - > From: Shakey1aa@aol.com > Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 > Subject: Re: the first prison group? NOT San Quentin > > The first prison group was definitely not > San Quentin! The Philadelphia Mother group > was taking meetings into Philadelphia prisons > two years before S. Q. and have continuously > carried on that tradition. > > Yours in Service, > Shakey Mike Gwirtz IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5590. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Archival repositories From: diazeztone . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/12/2009 6:07:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have often wondered why regional and state AA Archives are not placed physically into the library of a large institution. (Or smaller local institution.) I.e. the Texas archives being placed at the U Texas Library in Austin. Or at SMU in Dallas. Even a large city library would be a good choice. (Dallas, Fort Worth, Houston, Austin, have very large pubic libraries.) The archives could be donated but maintained by the group donating. Or they could be loaned (for fixed time 2 year, 5 year, 10 year) this would allow traveling archives to remove materials for conventions etc. I think this would make the materials avail- able to many more people. For example ,I have been to Oklahoma City 50 times recently and almost every time I go to the archives they are closed. LD Pierce editor www.aabibliography.com "an internet aa archive!!" IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5591. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Anyone know anything about the first prison group? From: marionoredstone . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/12/2009 1:09:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII And of course the rest of the story is that the 25 millionth copy of the Big Book was presented to the then current warden of San Quentin in recognition of its being the beginning of the prison meetings. I have presented at one here in central Indiana and agree with those who say it is worthwhile. While talking before the meeting with an inmate, and hearing his tale, I could truthfully say the very same thing that Warden Duffy describes the first AA speaker to have said to inmates. God is near Marion IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5592. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Anyone know anything about the first prison group? From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/14/2009 5:56:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Do you also recall that after receiving the 25 millionth Big Book and returning home she was out of a job? A rather ignoble homecoming. Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- On Behalf Of marionoredstone Subject: Re: Anyone know anything about the first prison group? And of course the rest of the story is that the 25 millionth copy of the Big Book was presented to the then current warden of San Quentin in recognition of its being the beginning of the prison meetings. I have presented at one here in central Indiana and agree with those who say it is worthwhile. While talking before the meeting with an inmate, and hearing his tale, I could truthfully say the very same thing that Warden Duffy describes the first AA speaker to have said to inmates. God is near Marion IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5593. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: the first prison group? NOT San Quentin From: Kimball ROWE . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/14/2009 5:58:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII It also strikes me that if Owen V. heard the message of Alcoholics Anonymous in 1941 at a meeting in the prison in Salem, Oregon at a meeting started by Doc H., then it makes sense that Doc H had started the meeting before that, since Owen V. was not a founder of that meeting. (Owen V later went on to start the first AA group in Utah in 1942 (=after release from prison.) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5594. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: the first prison group? NOT San Quentin From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/14/2009 8:18:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII AA Archives should be based on fact. Here are a few. The San Quentin Warden that was presented the 25 millionth copy of the Big Book at the International Convention in Canada in 2005 was Jill Brown. She was fired a week or so after receiving the award. FACT AA literature says San Quentin was started in 1942, AACA PG 89. FACT The Feb 1952 Grapevine says AA at San Quentin is a little more than 9 years old. That means it began in 1943 or late 1942. Other sourses say 1941 or 1943. I'll go with AACA, our not so perfect history. FACT Philadelphia prisons have had continuous meetings since September 1940. FACT Philadelphia AA started on the last day of Feb 1940. FACT (a leap year day) Sobriety thru the Oxford Group was present in Philadelphia in 1938 and future members of the Philadelphia Mother group had 2 years of sobriety before Jimmy B got here. Jimmy was given their names to look them up when he got here. FACT (John P L, for one) Whether it was 24 months or 20 months, the message of AA has been continuously carried in to the prisons of Philadelphia. My point in the original message is that our history is misrepresented in our literature. This is not the only example. If our history is found to be wrong then it must be corrected. MY OPINION (by the way I'm not yelling). Duffy had the 1st registered in New York prison meeting. There was no Intergroup in Philadelphia in 1940. The Intergroup started in 1948 and GSO wasn't in existence till 1951. Without group registration numbers, groups were registered by writing to the Alcoholic Foundation in New York and letting a secretary know about it. When I next go to GSO Archives I will request authorization to see Clinton Duffy's letter and then nail down the date the San Quentin AA prison Group began. Of course it will depend upon the approval of the Trustee's in charge of Archives to approve me. If Jared would like to go, just let me know. Then we can get the exact month and year and verify if it's 1941, 1942 or 1943. Yours in Service, Shakey Mike Gwirtz See you in Woodland Hills,Ca.Sept 24-27,2009 13th National Archives Conv. > From: _Shakey1aa@aol.Sha_ (mailto:Shakey1aa@aol.com) > Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 > Subject: Re: the first prison group? NOT San Quentin > > The first prison group was definitely not > San Quentin! The Philadelphia Mother group > was taking meetings into Philadelphia prisons > two years before S. Q. and have continuously > carried on that tradition. > > Yours in Service, > Shakey Mike Gwirtz IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5595. . . . . . . . . . . . Thanks from Jim Blair From: James Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/17/2009 2:02:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I arrived home from the hospital yesterday after my colon resection and I'd like to thank everyone for their prayers and support. I have a recovery period of 6 to 12 weeks and this will afford me the time to complete some history projects I had put aside. Jim Blair IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5596. . . . . . . . . . . . Father Martin: why Ashley in Maryland instead of Carolina? From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/14/2009 2:45:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Father Martin was planning a place in North Carolina, and I was surprised when he opened the place in Maryland. Does anyone know why he changed to Maryland? - - - - From GFC, the moderator. See his biography at: http://www.fathermartinsashley.com/interior.php?section=AboutAshley&subsecti on=B\ io [5] Father Joseph Martin - Biography Father Joseph C. Martin, S.S. (1924-2009), was co-founder of the addiction treatment center Father Martin’s Ashley in Havre de Grace, MD, and a noted authority and lecturer on alcoholism. Best known for his “Chalk Talk on Alcohol,” delivered to alcoholics and their families with his charismatic style and sense of humor, Father Martin is credited with saving the lives of thousands of alcoholics and addicts. His “Chalk Talk” lecture, which began “I’m Joe Martin and I’m an alcoholic,” and more than 40 films, are legendary. His films, which have been translated into multiple languages, continue to be used at treatment centers around the world, in hospitals, substance abuse programs, industry, and most branches of the U.S. government. He is author of several publications, including Chalk Talks on Alcohol, published by Harper & Row in 1982, which is still in print. The Early Years Father Martin was born in Baltimore on October 12, 1924, the fourth of seven children of Marie and James Martin. His leadership ability, communications skill, and charm became evident early in life. He was valedictorian of Loyola High School’s class of 1942, and was voted best debater, best actor, and class member with the best smile. He attended Loyola College from 1942 to 1944. During his senior year in high school and as he was attending Loyola College, he had a part-time job with St. Mary’s Seminary, where members of the Society of St. Sulpice taught seminarians. Increasingly drawn to their mission, he felt the calling to enter the priesthood, studying at St. Mary’s Seminary on Paca Street and at St Mary’s in Roland Park in Baltimore. He was ordained a priest for the Archdiocese of Baltimore in 1948. The following year he entered the Society of St. Sulpice, a community of priests devoted to the formation and education of seminarians and priests. Following ordination, he was sent to teach high school students preparing for the priesthood at St. Joseph’s College in Mountain View, CA (1948-56), where he was a successful and popular teacher. In 1956, he was sent to teach at St. Charles College in Catonsville, MD. Addiction and Recovery When it became apparent to colleagues that he had a problem with alcohol, Father Martin was sent to Guest House in Lake Orion, MI, an alcoholism treatment center and sanctuary for Catholic priests that advocated the Twelve Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous (A.A.). He left Guest House in 1959, in recovery and charting a new course for his life. He returned to Baltimore and St. Charles College, where he resumed teaching and supported his recovery by attending A.A. meetings three or four times a week. He seized every opportunity to speak about alcoholism, captivating audiences with what became the “Chalk Talk on Alcohol.” The Transition Years In 1968, he was assigned to serve as chaplain for the Oblate Sisters of Providence in Catonsville, and he continued to deliver his “Chalk Talk” to audiences along the East Coast. In 1970, Father Martin reached out to Mae Abraham, a woman he met through A.A., and with her and her husband’s encouragement, he made the decision to work the field of recovery. He became a lecturer and educator in the Division of Alcohol Control for the state of Maryland, conducting seminars for doctors, lawyers, parole officers, and social workers. In 1972, the United States Navy filmed “The Blackboard Talk,” which they then dubbed “The Chalk Talk.” It became known throughout the U.S. military and established Father Martin as a recognized leader in the addiction treatment field. The Ashley Years In 1977, on a flight returning from an appearance in South Carolina, Mae Abraham said, “Father, why don’t you open a treatment center where people can get well with the philosophy you have?” Mae Abraham and Father Martin began their quest to establish an addiction treatment center, raising funds over a seven-year period with Father Martin’s “Chalk Talk” delivered to audiences across the U.S. Thousands of small donations and several large gifts and matching funds made it possible to buy and renovate Oakington, the estate owned by the widow of U.S. Senator Millard Tydings on the Chesapeake Bay near Havre de Grace. Father Martin’s Ashley opened in 1983. Just two years after opening, Forbes magazine ranked it as one of the top ten addiction treatment facilities in the country. Today, patients come from the East Coast and across the U.S. to the 85-bed facility, which has a reputation for treating alcohol and drug addiction and relapse with respect for the dignity of each individual who enters its doors. To date, Ashley has provided treatment to more than 40,000 people suffering from the disease of addiction and has provided program services to their families. Father Martin always had a very special concern for priests in trouble. In this, he remained faithful to his Sulpician vocation throughout his life. Honors and Awards In 1991, Father Martin was invited by Pope John Paul II to participate in the Vatican’s International Conference on Drugs and Alcohol. He made four trips to Russia under the auspices of the International Institute on Alcohol Education and Training, and also traveled to Switzerland and Poland so speak to A.A. groups and to addiction counselors in training. Father Martin’s awards include the Andrew White Medal from Loyola College, Baltimore, for his contributions to the general welfare of the citizenry of Maryland; Rutgers University’s Summer School of Alcohol Studies’ Distinguished Service Award (1988); and the Norman Vincent Peale Award (1992). The Later Years Although he retired from active management at Father Martin’s Ashley in 2003, he continued to lecture, addressing patients as recently as last month, ending each talk, as he always did, “It’s the likes of you that keep the likes of me going.” He passed away at his home in Havre de Grace on March 9, 2009 at the age of 84. Father Martin’s Legacy In the words of the late Mike Deaver, former White House Chief of Staff under President Ronald Reagan, “Father Martin changed my life and changed me. When I came to Ashley, I had been with presidents and kings and popes and prime ministers, but Father was the most powerful person I had ever met, and he still is today. You see, Father has the power to change people, to make them better, to make them whole again.” Father Martin’s legacy is Father Martin’s Ashley. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5597. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Archival repositories and housing collections From: Mike Breedlove . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/14/2009 11:05:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Greetings LD, You raise an interesting point about the housing of archival materials and access to them. No doubt others will have valuable experience to share on this topic, and we eagerly await hearing the experiences of others. Please allow me to share some of my experience. Most public or private archives and libraries only accept donated (not loaned) material. Why should an institution have the responsibility and use its resources for maintaining materials without the authority to discard what it believes to be non-permanent? To be specific, AA materials of a local nature are just not that valuable historically to most libraries or archives so most local repositories just don't see the need to collect AA materials. In addition, those institutions are generally not interested in entering into a complicated arrangement regarding the care and housing of a separate collection of material, particularly one that is not within their collecting policy. What happens, they might ask, if the local AA entity no longer is willing to maintain their records? No institution wants to be placed in the position of throwing historical records on the street. I can speak from some experience in this area as I have worked in a state archives for twenty three years as an arrangement and description archivist and have been involved in state, regional and national archival professional organizations. I do not know of a single institution in our state that would be willing to house archival records under a "loan" or even "gift" agreement in which another entity shares the responsibility for a set of records within that institution. Philosophically, as members of Alcoholics Anonymous it seems to me that the Seventh Tradition means that if we are fully self-supporting through our own contributions then we support our archives as the historical repository of the message of Alcoholics Anonymous as it has come to us over the years. In fact, other traditions are also very important in this regard as the A. A. Guidelines on Archives emphasize. Please see http://www.aa.org/lang/en/en_pdfs/mg-17_archives.pdf Alcoholics Anonymous at any and every level should not surrender its archival or historical responsibility to another entity. After all, we want the archives of Alcoholics Anonymous to be in the hands of Alcoholics Anonymous, where its life saving message cannot be distorted or diminished. In our Area (Alabama-Northwest Florida) we have accomplished a great deal with our archives, particularly in collecting archival records and special collections. Nonetheless our archives is not the fully functional repository that we would like it to be. That means that we have work to do to make our archives more accessible and fully self-supporting. We are trying to do that work now. While these efforts are not moving quickly, they are proceeding steadily. One other observation - It seems to me that there is a growing sense of shared responsibility among archivists and historians in AA regarding AA's history, and a growing cooperation among the different districts, areas and the GSO archives to collaboratively preserve AA's history. This tendency is all to the good. We need each other. Once again the principles of commitment, collaboration and cooperation are paramount. We are still finding our way, but in this effort we work in unity. Yours in service, Mike B. Area One Archivist - - - - From: Sober186@aol.com (Sober186 at aol.com) Interesting idea. I wonder if we would run into anonymity problems? We are anonymous only outside AA rooms, I think. Some of the archives which would then be open to non AA readers might contain full names. Would we want to edit out last names? Jim in Central Ohio - - - - From: Shakey1aa@aol.com (Shakey1aa at aol.com) The answer to placing regional or state AA Archives in a library or large institution can be found in the AA Preamble. When I go somewhere to see AA archives I always make an appointment to do so. Most Archives have rules about who, where and when they can be seen. AA members have to be cleared to see the originals and someone needs to be present from the committee so that illegal copies or outright stealing is not occuring. A sober thief is still a thief. Yours in Service, Shakey Mike Gwirtz - - - - Original Message From: diazeztone I have often wondered why regional and state AA Archives are not placed physically into the library of a large institution. (Or smaller local institution.) I.e. the Texas archives being placed at the U Texas Library in Austin. Or at SMU in Dallas. Even a large city library would be a good choice. (Dallas, Fort Worth, Houston, Austin, have very large pubic libraries.) The archives could be donated but maintained by the group donating. Or they could be loaned (for fixed time 2 year, 5 year, 10 year) this would allow traveling archives to remove materials for conventions etc. I think this would make the materials avail- able to many more people. For example ,I have been to Oklahoma City 50 times recently and almost every time I go to the archives they are closed. LD Pierce editor www.aabibliography.com "an internet aa archive!!" IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5598. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: the first prison group? NOT San Quentin From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/18/2009 5:34:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In Warden Duffy's speech in 1960 at the Long Beach convention, he said he formed the group in 1941 (AA Today, as quoted earlier) -- that's the word of the group's founder, rather than what was said earlier by Bill (in AACOA) or the Grapevine (1952). My guess is he knew. But of course the principal point is the difference between a group (especially a prison group) and a meeting (specifically one brought into a facility). If I am free to go up to GSO with Mike, I'll be happy to, tho' I doubt my presence would add anything to his research, since he is an experienced and so far as I know an efficient researcher. Unless the NJ Group brought meetings into a prison, my guess is Philadelphia was the first to do that, just as Rockland State Hospital was the first institutional meeting (1939) and San Quentin the first prison group (1941 by Warden Duffy's word, though 1942 according to a report in the Grapevine and according to Bill until Warden Duffy's 1960 speech gave a first-hand account). IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5599. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Father Martin: why Ashley in Maryland instead of Carolina? From: Cece Archer . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/20/2009 3:40:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII As I understand it the land Father Martin and Mae wanted to obtain for the treatment center in North Carolina was going to be difficult to obtain for zoning, permits, etc. and they wanted to be able to start the project soon. The land was available in Maryland, so Ashley was born. Cecilia IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5600. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill''s experiment with keeping liquor in the house From: Michael F. Margetis . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/20/2009 2:59:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi all, On page 281 in "Dr. Bob And The Good Old Timers" there's a paragraph that reads: "Remembering his own disastrous trip to Atlantic City and Bill's experiment with keeping liquor on the sideboard to prove it was no longer a temptation, Dr. Bob advocated that members stay in dry places whenever possible. 'You don't ask the Lord not to lead you into temptation, then turn around and walk right into it,' he said." My question is, what's the story behind Bill's experiment? I've looked everywhere I can think of to find that story, but can't find it. Thanks, Mike Margetis Brunswick, Maryland IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5601. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Royalties for Grapevine related literature From: secondles . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/11/2009 6:55:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The answer to questions about royalties are basically found in reading a copy of Bill's WILL and Lois's WILL. Les C - - - - From the moderator: So does anybody know where a copy of either of these wills could be found? Were they probated in New York state? G.C. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5602. . . . . . . . . . . . First 100 Sober: who were Jack S. and Sim R.? From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/22/2009 7:24:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In a February 1948 Grapevine article entitled "Real Old-Timers Meet With New Babies to Exchange Views on Program," we find the following paragraph: "The six who have been members a decade or more and who came out from behind their whiskers to talk a little about those earliest days when AA was newborn and almost stillborn, and their combined assets could be measured in nickels and dimes - on some days - were: Bill W., who with Dr. Bob of Akron started it all; Horace C., Bert T., Dick S., Jack S. and Sim R." The first four are quite well known. Does anyone know anything about the last two -- Jack S. and Sim R. -- who, based on the date of the article and their having been described as having "a decade or more" of sobriety, would have to be included in a list of the first 100 sober? Very interested to know! God Bless. John B. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5603. . . . . . . . . . . . What pamphlets and books were sent out in Fall 1939? From: katiebartlett79 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/24/2009 12:06:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Foreword to second edition, page xviii: "[5 months after the 1st ed. of the Big Book was published in April 1939,] in the fall of 1939 [in September] Fulton Oursler, then editor of Liberty, printed a piece in his magazine, called "Alcoholics and God." This brought a rush of 800 frantic inquiries into the little New York office which meanwhile had been established. Each inquiry was painstakingly answered; pamphlets and books were sent out .... By the end of 1939 it was estimated that 800 alcoholics were on their way to recovery." My group and I would like to know if anyone knows what literature was sent out when it states that "pamphlets and books were sent out" from the New York AA office during the period running from September to December of 1939. Thanking u kindly, Katie from Barking Big Book Study IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5604. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill''s experiment with keeping liquor in the house From: Ernest Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/26/2009 9:33:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Michael (and all), The way I consistently heard it during my 1970s research, including from Lois herself, was that Bill did not keep booze "on the sideboard" but on a closet shelf in case they needed it to help sober up some drunk. Lois also said (and this may also be in her book) that when they found the bottle as they were preparing to move, both of them were surprised that they had forgotten about it. Much more research has been done since, of course, but memory is a very tricky and in general untrustworthy tool, especially in the form of "someone told my sponsor's sponsor that . . . ." On the other hand, we do keep discovering new facets of the old story, which is one great thing about the AAHL group. ernie kurtz - - - - Original message: on Mar 20, 2009, Michael F. Margetis wrote: > Hi all, > > On page 281 in "Dr. Bob And The Good Old > Timers" there's a paragraph that reads: > > "Remembering his own disastrous trip to > Atlantic City and Bill's experiment with > keeping liquor on the sideboard to prove it > was no longer a temptation, Dr. Bob advocated > that members stay in dry places whenever > possible. 'You don't ask the Lord not to lead > you into temptation, then turn around and > walk right into it,' he said." > > My question is, what's the story behind > Bill's experiment? > > I've looked everywhere I can think of to > find that story, but can't find it. > > Thanks, > > Mike Margetis > Brunswick, Maryland > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5605. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill''s experiment with keeping liquor in the house From: elg3_79 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/27/2009 10:48:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I believe this "idea" arose during Bill's stay with Anne and Bob Smith, but my source (http://www.barefootsworld.net/aa-bbtrivia.html) is unclear as to whether this pre- or postdated Dr. Bob's infamous Atlantic City jaunt. This source gives the following explanation of something that is said in the Big Book on page 102 at the bottom of the page -- "Many of us keep liquor in our homes" This source attributes this custom to: 'Our co-founder, Dr Bob. He said "I was adamant on having liquor. I said we had to prove that you could live in the presence of liquor. So I got two big bottles and put them right on the sideboard and that drove Anne wild for awhile."' Y'all's in service Ted G. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5606. . . . . . . . . . . . Daily Reflections From: tomper87 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/27/2009 1:28:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have a first printing of The Daily Reflections which does not include the listing of The Twelve Steps and The Twelve Traditions. Can anyone tell me at which printing they were added to the book? Thank you. Tom P. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5607. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill''s experiment with keeping liquor in the house From: CloydG . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/26/2009 1:57:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Perhaps it comes from the practice, described on page 103 of "Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers," of giving small amounts of alcohol periodically to alcoholics who were detoxing, over the first day or two or three, to help keep them from going into the DTs. Clyde G. - - - - ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael F. Margetis To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 11:59 AM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Bill's experiment with keeping liquor in the house Hi all, On page 281 in "Dr. Bob And The Good Old Timers" there's a paragraph that reads: "Remembering his own disastrous trip to Atlantic City and Bill's experiment with keeping liquor on the sideboard to prove it was no longer a temptation, Dr. Bob advocated that members stay in dry places whenever possible. 'You don't ask the Lord not to lead you into temptation, then turn around and walk right into it,' he said." My question is, what's the story behind Bill's experiment? I've looked everywhere I can think of to find that story, but can't find it. Thanks, Mike Margetis Brunswick, Maryland IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5608. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Big Book Royalties, Bill and Lois''s wills From: LES COLE . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/27/2009 5:43:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Copies of the Agreement between Bill and AAWorld Services, Inc dated April 29, 1963 can be found by entering: William Wilson Will on the URL line which brings up GOOGLE sites. Click Bill Wilson Royalty Agreement. Therein are descriptions of Copyright provisions, and references to Bill's WILL, and references to Lois's WILL. - - - - The actual WILLs can be found the same way by typing in Bill W WILL on URL line; then click William Wilson's Last Will. There was one written August 2, 1965 and one written January 12, 1968. - - - - Lois's WILL can be found by entering Lois Wilson Will On the URL line, then click Lois Wilson's Last Will and Testament. It was written August 11, 1983 Les C - - - - To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com From: elsietwo@msn.com Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 22:55:48 +0000 Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Royalties for Grapevine related literature The answer to questions about royalties are basically found in reading a copy of Bill's WILL and Lois's WILL. Les C IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5609. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Big Book Royalties, Bill and Lois''s wills From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/28/2009 1:10:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Les Cole's instructions take you to a copy of the wills on a well-known anti-AA website (see the end of this message for the URLs). - - - - An email from "Mitchell K." also refers us to that same website. ((mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com)) - - - - An email from Greg S. also mentions the copy of the wills on that site, which he warns us "are not the actual papers but retyped." BUT GREG SAYS THAT THERE IS A BETTER SITE TO GO TO: If you want to post these for information purposes, here is a better site (retyped also) but there is the 1968 AND the 1965 will of Bill, plus the 1963 royalty agreement: http://aagso.org/aaws/heirs.htm (Bill) http://aagso.org/aaws/lois.htm (Lois) - - - - ORIGINAL MESSAGE: Message #5608 from LES COLE (elsietwo at msn.com) Re: Big Book Royalties, Bill and Lois's wills Copies of the Agreement between Bill and AAWorld Services, Inc dated April 29, 1963 can be found by entering: William Wilson Will on the URL line which brings up GOOGLE sites. Click Bill Wilson Royalty Agreement. Therein are descriptions of Copyright provisions, and references to Bill's WILL, and references to Lois's WILL. - - - - The actual WILLs can be found the same way by typing in Bill W WILL on URL line; then click William Wilson's Last Will. There was one written August 2, 1965 and one written January 12, 1968. - - - - Lois's WILL can be found by entering Lois Wilson Will On the URL line, then click Lois Wilson's Last Will and Testament. It was written August 11, 1983 Les C - - - - LES'S INSTRUCTIONS TAKE YOU TO THIS WEBSITE: http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-BillWill.html http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-LoisWill.html IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5610. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill Wilson''s Will - 12th day of January, 1968 From: Patricia . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/28/2009 8:55:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Bill Wilson's Will - 12th day of January, 1968 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- I, WILLIAM GRIFFITH WILSON, residing in Bedford Hills, Westchester County, State of New York, being of sound and disposing mind and memory, do hereby make, publish and declare this instrument to be the First Codicil to my Last Will and Testament dated August 2, 1965. First: I revoke Article "FIRST" of my said Will. Second: The following shall be added to my said Will in lieu of the former Article "FIRST": FIRST: I have entered into an agreement, dated April 29, 1963, with Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc., of 305 East 45th Street, New York, New York, under which royalties may become payable to me with respect to certain books or other material of which I am the author or which I have prepared for publication [understand the background of these terms: the authors of the Big Book and other publications get nothing but Bill and his heirs get the financial rewards] as set forth in the agreement (the agreement and all modifications, renewals or extensions thereof is hereinafter referred to as the "Royalty Agreement"). Under the present terms of the Royalty Agreement, I have the right to bequeath to my wife, LOIS BURNHAM WILSON, and any other persons living at the time of my death, life interests in the royalties payable after my death and I also have the right to grant to my wife, LOIS BURNHAM WILSON, the power to designate in her Last Will and Testament, duly admitted to probate, persons selected by her who are living at the time of her death who shall be entitled to receive, in such proportions as my said wife may designate, life interests after her death in all or part of the royalties payable to her after my death. Accordingly, I direct that all of the right, title or interest that I may have at the time of my death in or to any royalties under the Royalty Agreement shall be disposed of as follows: A. I give and bequeath to HELEN WYNN [Bill changed his Will to take 10% of the royalties from his wife Lois and give them to his mistress Helen], of Pleasantville, New York, if she survives me, a life interest in ten percent (10%) of such royalties. If the said HELEN WYNN does not survive me, I direct that the said ten percent (10%) of such royalties shall be disposed of in accordance with the provisions of Paragraphs B or C, as the case my be of this Article FIRST. B. I give and bequeath to my wife, LOIS BURNHAM WILSON, if she survives me, a life interest in the remaining ninety percent (90%) of such royalties. I also grant to my said wife, if she survives me, the power to select and designate in her Last Will and Testament, duly admitted to probate, persons living at the time of her death who are to receive life interests after her death in such royalties in such proportions as she may designate. If my said wife fails to exercise, in whole or in part, the power of appointment granted to her under the preceding provisions of this Paragraph B, I direct that any royalties which remain undisposed of as a result of such failure shall be disposed of in accordance with the provisions of Paragraph C of this Article FIRST as though I had survived my said wife and died immediately after her death. C. If my wife, LOIS BURNHAM WILSON, does not survive me, I direct that all of the right or title that I may have at the time of my death in and to the remaining ninty percent (90%) of such royalties shall be divided into twenty (20) equal shares, which shall be disposed of as follows: 1. I give and bequeath a life interest in three of such shares to my sister, HELEN EVANS, if she survives me. 2. I give and bequeath a life interest in two of such shares to my sister, DOROTHY STRONG, if she survives me. 3. I give and bequeath a life interest in one of such shares to my brother-in-law, DR. LEONARD STRONG, if he survives me. 4. I give and bequeath a life interest in one of such shares to my cousin, HOWARD WILSON, if he survives me. 5. I give and bequeath a life interest in two of such shares to my brother-in-law, ROGERS BURNHAM, if he survives me. 6. I give and bequeath a life interest in three of such shares to LAURA BURNHAM (the wife of my brother-in-law, ROGERS BURNHAM), if she survives me. 7. I give and bequeath a life interest in one of such shares to my brother-in-law, DR. LYMAN BURNHAM, if he survives me. 8. I give and bequeath a life interest in one of such shares to FLORENCE BURNHAM (the wife of my brother-in-law, DR. LYMAN BURNHAM), if she survives me. 9. I give and bequeath a life interest in two of such shares to my sister-in-law, BARBARA JONES, if she survives me. 10. I give and bequeath a life interest in three of such shares to NELL WING, if she survives me. 11. I give and bequeath a life interest in one of such shares to HARRIET SEVERINO, if she survives me. If any beneficiary named in any of subdivisions "1" through "11" of this Paragraph C does not survive me, I direct that the share (or shares) and the life interest in such share (or shares) of such deceased beneficiary shall be divided among the beneficiaries named in subdivisions "1" through "11" of this Paragraph C who do survive me, in the proportion that the share (or shares) of each such surviving beneficiary bears (or bear) to the total shares of all such surviving beneficiaries. Third: I hereby revoke the sentence following subdivision "11" of Paragraph B of Article "THIRD" of my Will and add the following sentence in its place: If any beneficiary named in any of subdivisions "1" through "11" of this Paragraph B of this Article THIRD does not survive me, I direct that the share (or shares) and the life interest in such share (or shares) of such deceased beneficiary shall be divided among the beneficiaries named in subdivisions "1" through "11" of this Paragraph B of this Article THIRD, who do survive me, in the proportion that the share (or shares) of each such surviving beneficiary bears (or bear) to the total shares of all such surviving beneficiaries. Fourth: Except as modified herein, I ratify, confirm and republish my said Will of August 2, 1965. IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand and seal this 12th day of January, 1968. William Griffith Wilson (L.S.) WILLIAM GRIFFITH WILSON The foregoing instrument was signed, sealed, published and declared by WILLIAM GRIFFITH WILSON, the testator named herein, as and for a FIRST CODICIL to his Last Will and Testament dated August 2, 1965, in our presence and in the presence of each of us, at 460 Park Avenue. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- AA money leaves the Fellowship: Bill Wilson's Previous Will - 2nd day of August 1965 I, WILLIAM GRIFFITH WILSON, residing in Bedford Hills, County of Westchester, State of New York, being of sound and disposing mind and memory, do hereby make, publish and declare this to be my Last Will and Testament, hereby revoking all former Wills and Codicils by me at any time heretofore made. FIRST: I have entered into an agreement, dated April 29, 1963, with Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc. of 305 East 45th Street, New York, New York under which royalties may become payable to me with respect to certain books or other material of which I may be the author or which I may prepare for publication, as more particularly set forth in the said agreement (which agreement, together with all modifications, renewals or extensions thereof is hereinafter referred to as the "Royalty Agreement"). Under the present terms of the Royalty Agreement, I have the right to bequeath to my wife, LOIS BURNHAM WILSON, a life interest in the royalties payable after my death and I also have the right to grant to my wife, LOIS BURNHAM WILSON, the power to designate in her Last Will and Testament, duly admitted to probate, persons selected by her who are living at the time of her death who shall be entitled to receive, in such proportions as my said wife may designate, life interests after her death in all or part of the royalties. If at the time of my death, I have the right under the Royalty Agreement to bequeath to my wife, LOIS BURNHAM WILSON, a life interest in the royalties payable after my death, I give and bequeath to my wife, LOIS BURNHAM WILSON, a life interest in such royalties, to the extent that I have the right to do so under the Royalty Agreement, and I also grant to my said wife, to the extent that I have the right to do so under the Royalty Agreement, the power to select in her Last Will and Testament, duly admitted to probate, persons living at the time of her death who are to receive a life interest after her death in all or part of such royalties in such proportions as my said wife may designate. If my wife, LOIS DURNHAM WILSON, shall not survive me, I direct that all of the right, title or interest that I may have at the time of my death in or to any royalties under the Royalty Agreement shall be divided into twenty (20) equal shares which shall be disposed of as follows: A. I give and bequeath a life interest in three of such shares to my sister, HELEN EVANS, if she shall survive me. B. I give and bequeath a life interest in two of such shares to my sister, DOROTHY STRONG, if she shall survive me. C. I give and bequeath a life interest in one of such shares to my brother-in-law, DR. LEONARD STRONG, if he shall survive me. D. I give and bequeath a life interest in one of such shares to my cousin, HOWARD WILSON, if he shall survive me. E. I give and bequeath a life interest in two of such shares to my brother-in-law, ROGERS BURNHAM, if he shall survive me. F. I give and bequeath a life interest in three of such shares to LAURA BURNHAM (who is the wife of my brother-in-law Rogers Burnham), if she shall survive me. G. I give and bequeath a life interest in one of such shares to my brother-in-law, DR. LYMAN BURNHAM, if he shall survive me. H. I give and bequeath a life interest in one of such shares to FLORENCE BURNHAM (who is the wife of my brother-in-law, Dr. Lyman Burnham), if she shall survive me. I. I give and bequeath a life interest in two of such shares to my sister-in-law, BARBARA JONES, if she shall survive me. J. I give and bequeath a life interest in three of such shares to NELL WING, if she shall survive me. K. I give and bequeath a life interest in one of such shares to HARRIET SEVERINO, if she shall survive me. If my wife, LOIS BURNHAM WILSON, shall not survive me and if any beneficiary named in any paragraph of Paragraphs "A" through "K" of this Article "FIRST" shall not survive me, I direct that the share (or shares) and the life interests in such share (or shares), of such deceased beneficiary shall be divided among the beneficiaries named in Paragraphs "A" through "K" of this Article "FIRST" who shall survive me in the proportion that the share (or shares) of each such surviving beneficiary bears (or bear) to the total shares of all such surviving beneficiaries. SECOND: I give, devise and bequeath all of the rest, residue and remainder of my estate, whether real, personal or mixed, of whatsoever kind and nature and wheresoever situate, of which I may die seized or possessed, or in which I may have any interest, or over which I may have any power of appointment or testamentary disposition (hereinafter referred to as my residuary estate), to my wife, LOIS BURNHAM WILSON, if she shall survive me. THIRD: If my wife, LOIS BURNHAM WILSON, shall not survive me, I direct that my residuary estate shall be disposed of as follows: A. If at the time of my death I am the owner of a home (presently owned by my wife, LOIS BURNHAM WILSON) located at Stepping Stones, Bedfords Hills, New York, I give, devise and bequeath the said home together with all furniture, furnishings, carpets, rugs, drapes and other household appurtenances that I may own at the time of my death and which are then located in my said home in equal shares to AL-ANON FAMILY GROUPS HEADQUARTERS, INC. of 125 East 23rd Street, New York, New York and the GENERAL SERVICE BOARD OF A.A., INC. of 305 East 45th Street, New York, New York. B. I direct that the balance of my residuary estate shall be divided into twenty (20) equal shares which shall be disposed of as follows: 1. I give, devise and bequeath three of such shares to my sister, HELEN EVANS, if she shall survive me. 2. I give, devise and bequeath two of such shares to my sister, DOROTHY STRONG, if she shall survive. 3. I give, devise and bequeath one of such shares to my brother-in-law, DR. LEONARD STRONG, if he shall survive me. 4. I give, devise and bequeath one of such shares to my cousin, HOWARD WILSON, if he shall survive me. 5. I give, devise and bequeath two of such shares to my brother-in-law, ROGERS BURNHAM, if he shall survive me. 6. I give, devise and bequeath three of such shares to LAURA BURNHAM (the wife of my brother-in-law ROGERS BURNHAM), if she shall survive me. 7. I give, devise and bequeath one of such shares to my brother-in-law, DR. LYMAN BURNHAM, if he shall survive me. 8. I give, devise and bequeath one of such shares to FLORENCE BURNHAM (the wife of my brother-in-law DR. LYMAN BURNHAM), if she shall survive me. 9. I give, devise and bequeath two of such shares to my sister-in-law, BARBARA JONES, if she shall survive me. 10. I give devise and bequeath three of such shares to NELL WING, if she shall survive me. 11. I give, devise and bequeath one of such shares to HARRIET SEVERINO, if she shall survive me. If any beneficiary named in any subdivision of subdivisions "1" through "11" of this Paragraph "B" of this Article "THIRD" shall not survive me, the share of such deceased beneficiary shall be divided among the beneficiaries named in subdivisions "1" through "11" of this Paragraph "B" of this Article "THIRD" who shall survive me in the proportion that the share of each such surviving beneficiary bears to the total shares of all such surviving beneficiaries. FOURTH: If any person named herein as devisee, legatee or beneficiary, and I, should die simultaneously or under such circumstances that it is difficult or impracticable to determine that one of us has survived the other, the provisions herein relating to such person shall be given effect as if I had survived such person. FIFTH: My Executrix shall have full power and authority in her absolute and uncontrolled discretion to hold and retain any of the property coming into her hand hereunder in the same form of investment as that in which it is received by her, although it may not be of the character of investments permitted by law to executors, including, but not limited to, the right to continue the operation of any business in which I may be engaged at the time of my death, for so long a period as she in her solo, absolute and uncontrolled discretion, may deem proper. She shall also have full power and authority, in her absolute and uncontrolled discretion, to improve, sell or lease for any period although it may extend beyond the duration of the administration of the estate, but not to exceed twenty-one years, for any price and with any provisions for renewal or renewals which she shall deem advisable, or mortgage or exchange the whole or any part of the property, real or personal, at any time held by her hereunder, for such price and upon such terms and conditions as may to her seem advisable. My executrix in making investments and reinvestments shall not be limited to securities of the character permitted for the investment of trust funds by the laws of the State of New York or any other state, but instead shall have power in her discretion at any time and from time to time to invest in, and to purchase and hold for investment, such securities, including common and preferred stocks and/or any other type or kind of property, including non-income-producing securities or property and any so-called wasting investment as she in her absolute and uncontrolled discretion shall deem advisable, and from time to time to alter and vary any investment at any time made or held. I specifically authorize my Executrix to hold uninvested any part of my estate or funds for such time or times as she in her sole and uncontrolled judgment may deem advisable. I have given my Executrix the unusual power to purchase and hold non-income-producing property and wasting investments and even to hold funds uninvested because I do not wish to limit her in her investment or reinvestment of the estate and so possibly prevent nor meeting some economic emergency which I cannot now anticipate. I desire her to be free to purchase and hold such property as she may, in her sole and uncontrolled discretion, deem necessary at any time to protect the corpus of the estate from depletion. No purchaser at any sale made by my Executrix shall be bound to inquire into the expediency, propriety, validity or necessity of any sale made by her or to see to or be liable for the application of the purchase moneys arising therefrom. My Executrix shall have the power in her discretion to vote in person or by proxy all stock held by her; to assent to any action or non-action, to enter into or consent to any reorganization, lease or sale, to pay out of any fund administered hereunder to any committee, representative, agent or depositary, any assessments, expenses, contributions and sums of money in connection with any securities held by her; to exchange the securities held by her for other securities issued in connection with such arrangement and to accept and retain such other securities so received, anything herein to the contrary notwithstanding; to register any property in the name of her nominees or in her own name, or to hold the property unregistered or in such other form that title shall pass by delivery, but without thereby increasing or decreasing her liability as Executrix and, generally, to exercise in respect to all securities held by her all the same rights and powers as are or may be lawfully exercised by persons owning similar propery in their own right. I give to my Executrix, in connection with the administration of my estate, or in connection with the purchase, management or sale of any securities or other property held by her as Executrix, power to employ agents, custodians, depositaries, accountants, attorneys, investment counsel or other advisers, to delegate to them discretionary powers and to compensate them for their services as an expense of the administration of my estate. I give to my Executrix power to insure or otherwise protect any personal property constituting part of my estate. In making any division or distribution of my estate, my Executrix shall have full power to make such division or distribution in cash or in kind or partly in cash and partly in kind and to allot to any separate beneficiary, in equal or unequal proportions, specific securities or property or undivided interests therein, to fix the value of any part of the property so divided or distributed, and the value so fixed by her shall be binding and conclusive upon all persons having any interest therein. SIXTH: I nominate and appoint my wife, LOIS BURNHAM WILSON, to be the Executrix of this Will. If my wife LOIS BURNHAM WILSON, should predecease me or shall fail to qualify as Executrix or having qualified shall fail to continue to act as Executrix, I nominate and appoint, in the following order, BERNARD B. SMITH of 460 Park Avenue, New York, New York, LEONARD H. STEIBEL of 460 Park Avenue, New York, New York, and MICHAEL ALEXANDER of 460 Park Avenue, New York, New York, to be the substitute Executor in the place and stead of my said wife or of any previous substitute Executor who may have predeceased me or who shall have failed to qualify as Executor or having qualified shall fail to continue as Executor. Whenever the word "Executor" is used in this Last Will and Testament, it shall be deemed to refer (unless the context shall indicate otherwise) to the Executrix or substitute Executor then qualified and acting. I direct that no Executrix or substitute Executor shall be required to give any bond or other security in the State of New York or elsewhere. IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand and seal this 2nd day of August 1965. WILLIAM GRIFFITH WILSON (L.S.) WILLIAM GRIFFITH WILSON The foregoing instrument was subscribed, sealed, published and declared by WILLIAM GRIFFITH WILSON, the Testator above named, as and for his LAST WILL AND TESTAMENT, in our presence and in the presence of each of us, and we at his request and in his presence and at the same time and in the presence of each other, subscribed our names and residences as attesting witnesses this 2nd day of August 1965. LEONARD H. STEIBEL residing at Hilldale Lane Sands Point, N.Y. ELEANOR P. FISHER residing at 78-31 264 St. Glen Oaks, Floral Park, N.Y. MICHAEL ALEXANDER residing at 73-12 35 Ave. Queens, N.Y., N.Y. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5611. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: What pamphlets and books were sent out in Fall 1939? From: John Barton . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/27/2009 10:57:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Books only during the Fall of 1939! The first pamphlet wasn't until mid-1940 when the office published the Houston Press articles. Posted on silkworth.net http://www.silkworth.net/aahistory/houston_press1940.html The foreword to the 2nd edition was written about 15 years later so the error in memory (Bill's) is not unusual as to the time-line. The office was of course sending out Big Books beginning in early April of 39. PS Don't forget to celebrate the 70th birthday of our book on April 10, 2009. This was the date of publication listed on the copyright. John B - - - - From: "Mitchell K." (mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com) Hi Katie, The first official pamphlet published by the Alcoholic Foundation was simply titled "AA." It was basically a series of newspaper articles written by Larry Jewell who moved from Cleveland, Ohio to Houston, Texas after he sobered up and was sponsored by Clarence Snyder. Larry was offered a job with the Houston Press by its owner as Larry was an excellent reporter before his drinking took over. The books were the Big Book first published in April 1939. Mitchell Klein - - - - Original messafrom from katiebartlett79 (katiebartlett79 at yahoo.co.uk) Subject: What pamphlets and books were sent out in Fall 1939? Foreword to second edition, page xviii: "[5 months after the 1st ed. of the Big Book was published in April 1939,] in the fall of 1939 [in September] Fulton Oursler, then editor of Liberty, printed a piece in his magazine, called "Alcoholics and God." This brought a rush of 800 frantic inquiries into the little New York office which meanwhile had been established. Each inquiry was painstakingly answered; pamphlets and books were sent out ..... By the end of 1939 it was estimated that 800 alcoholics were on their way to recovery." My group and I would like to know if anyone knows what literature was sent out when it states that "pamphlets and books were sent out" from the New York AA office during the period running from September to December of 1939. Thanking u kindly, Katie from Barking Big Book Study IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5612. . . . . . . . . . . . When did Helen Wynn die? From: chris fuccione . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/29/2009 2:35:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have a quick question. Is Helen Wynn still alive? I assume not. But when did she die? - - - - > A. I give and bequeath to HELEN WYNN [Bill changed his Will to take 10% of the royalties from his wife Lois and give them to his mistress Helen], of Pleasantville, New York, if she survives me, a life interest in ten percent (10%) of such royalties. If the said HELEN WYNN does not survive me, I direct that the said ten percent (10%) of such royalties shall be disposed of in accordance with the provisions of Paragraphs B or C, as the case my be of this Article FIRST. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5613. . . . . . . . . . . . Barney Silkworth 1930 - 2009 From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/28/2009 8:16:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII It is with much sadness that I inform you of Barney Silkworth's obituary & funeral plans (nephew of Dr. William D. Silkworth, M.D.): http://woolleyfh.com/index.php?p=obituary_view&id=61622 - - - - Barney Silkworth, 78, of Oceanport died on Friday, March 27, at home after a long illness. He was born in Long Branch and graduated from Long Branch High School in 1949. He served in the US Navy from 1953-54 and graduated from Trenton State College in 1955. Mr. Silkworth worked for the Long Branch Board of Education for just over fifty years, and retired in July of 2005. For 43 years, he taught industrial arts, serving as the department head for industrial and fine arts for several years. At the time of his retirement, Mr. Silkworth oversaw the Board of Education buildings and grounds. He also served as the Building Inspector for the Borough of Oceanport for nearly twenty years. Mr. Silkworth was a talented craftsman and wood carver. His projects ranged from small bird carvings to building and renovating boats and houses. He was a former member of the Shore Shop Teachers' Association, the Building Inspectors' Association, the Long Branch Ice Boat and Yacht Club, and the Oceanport Republican Club. He also served for many years on the Oceanport Planning Board. Mr. Silkworth was predeceased by his parents, Russell and Elsa Kraft Silkworth, and his brother, William D. Silkworth. He is survived by his wife of 49 years, Barbara Becker Silkworth; his daughter, Stacy Silkworth, Long Branch; his son, William O. Silkworth, and daughter- in- law, Denise, and grandchildren, Samuel and Henry, all of Oceanport. He also leaves his sister-in-law, Adelaide Silkworth, of Hickory, NC; brother-in-law, Steven Becker, and his wife Maryann of Oceanport. He leaves cousins, several nieces, nephews, great and great-great nieces and nephews. A Celebration of Life Service will be held at St. Luke's Methodist Church, 535 Broadway, Long Branch, on Saturday, April 4 at10 a.m. The family will receive visitors after the service at the church. In lieu of flowers the family asks that you consider contributions in his name to The Cancer Institute of New Jersey, Tower Two Fifth Floor, 120 Albany Street, New Brunswick, NJ 08901-9919, research of Dr. Dale Schaar; or St. Barnabas Hospice and Palliative Care Center, 95 Old Short Hills Road, 1st Floor, West Orange, NJ 07052. You may light a candle of remembrance for Mr. Silkworth on the opposite page. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5614. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: What pamphlets and books were sent out in Fall 1939? From: schaberg43 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/28/2009 6:06:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The first AA pamphlet came out in April 1939: In the New York Archive of GSO, there is a copy of a 'pamphlet' that was made up and distributed very shortly after the book was published. The book was published on April 10, 1939 and two weeks later on April 24 there is a letter from Ruth Hock to an S. Jenkins in New York City which starts out: "We are wondering why we have not heard from you regarding our pamphlet on "Alcoholics Anonymous" (Document 1939-253) The 'pamphlet'in the archive (Documents 1939-230 to 233) are four pieces of half-sized paper (5.5" x 8.5") that have been pre-printed on both sides - producing 8 pages of text. The first page is a letter "Thank you for your enquiry..." signed by "Works Publishing Company" and the following seven sides contain excerpts from the book, including: five paragraphs from the "Doctor's Opinion" followed by similarly short selections from "There is a Solution," "More About Alcoholism," "To Wives," "The Family Afterwards," "To Employers," and a quote from one of the personal stories in the rear (taken from page 393 of the first printing of the book). I suspect that this is the 'pamphlet' mentioned here. Best, Old Bill --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "katiebartlett79" wrote: > > Foreword to second edition, page xviii: > > "[5 months after the 1st ed. of the Big Book was > published in April 1939,] in the fall of 1939 > [in September] Fulton Oursler, then editor > of Liberty, printed a piece in his magazine, > called "Alcoholics and God." This brought a > rush of 800 frantic inquiries into the little > New York office which meanwhile had been > established. Each inquiry was painstakingly > answered; pamphlets and books were sent out > .... By the end of 1939 it was estimated that > 800 alcoholics were on their way to recovery." > > My group and I would like to know if anyone > knows what literature was sent out when it > states that "pamphlets and books were sent > out" from the New York AA office during the > period running from September to December of > 1939. > > Thanking u kindly, > > Katie from Barking Big Book Study > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5615. . . . . . . . . . . . Ignatia''s voyage from Ireland to America in April 1896 From: Fiona Dodd . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/28/2009 5:23:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII On further research of the emmigration records I have found that the Gavin Family sailed from Queenstown(now Cobh) in Cork to Philadelphia USA on April 2nd 1896, arriving in Philadelphia on 17th April 1896. The Gavin family were not "two boaters", they sailed directly from Queenstown to Philadelphia, as has been reported in other accounts. The terms two-boater and three-boater were coined to describe Irish-American families whose meandering migratory paths to the United States had begun with a sea voyage from Ireland to Newfoundland. They sailed on the SS Indiana which was built in 1873. She belonged to the International Navigation Co of New Jersey, which later became the American Line. This was a 3,104 gross ton ship, length 343ft x beam 43ft, one funnel, two masts, iron construction, single screw and a speed of 12 knots. There was accommodation for 46-1st, 132-intermediate and 789-3rd class passengers. Built by W.Cramp & Sons, Philadelphia, she was launched on 25/3/1873. She commenced her first voyage on 27/10/1873 when she sailed from Philadelphia for Queenstown (Cobh) and Liverpool. On 6/3/1889 she was chartered to Red Star Line and completed a single round voyage from Antwerp to New York. In 1891 she was fitted with triple expansion engines and rebuilt to accommodate intermediate and 3rd class passengers only. On 1/12/1897 she commenced her last voyage from Liverpool to Philadelphia and 28/3/1898 sailed from Philadelphia for Seattle, where she was sold for service on the Pacific. On 3/4/1909 she was wrecked at Cape Tosco, Mexico. Below is a transcript of the details recorded for the Gavin Family. Name: Pat GAVIN Date of departure: 2 April 1896 Port of departure: Queenstown Destination port: Philadelphia Destination country: USA Date of Birth: Age: Adult Sex: Male Occupation: Labr Notes: Passenger recorded on: Page 2 of 3 Name: Barbara GAVIN Date of departure: 2 April 1896 Port of departure: Queenstown Destination port: Philadelphia Destination country: USA Date of Birth: Age: Adult Marital Status: Married Sex: Female Occupation: Wife Notes: Passenger recorded on: Page 2 of 3 Name: Bgt GAVIN Date of departure: 2 April 1896 Port of departure: Queenstown Destination port: Philadelphia Destination country: USA Date of Birth: Age: Child Marital Status: Sex: Female Occupation: Child Notes: Passenger recorded on: Page 2 of 3 passenger transcript details Name: Pat GAVIN Date of departure: 2 April 1896 Port of departure: Queenstown Passenger destination port: Philadelphia, USA Passenger destination: Philadelphia, USA Date of Birth: Age: Child Marital status: Sex: Male Occupation: Son Passenger recorded on: Page 2 of 3 Ship: INDIANA Official Number: Master's name: Thompson Steamship Line: Where bound: Philadelphia, USA Square feet: 2456 Registered tonnage: 2426 Passengers on voyage: 58 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5616. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: When did Helen Wynn die? From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/31/2009 8:56:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "chris fuccione" wrote: > > I have a quick question. Is Helen Wynn still > alive? > > I assume not. But when did she die? > - - - - If someone has a better source, disregard this. Assuming that Helen Wynn was using that name at the time of her death, and that she is included in the Social Security Death Index, I believe she must have been the one who died in Moroni, Comoros in March 1978. The last address of that (American) Helen Wynn is listed as "Europe," and the Helen Wynn who knew Bill Wilson had been living in Ireland at the time of Bill's death. Caveats: Helen Wynn was originally her stage name although I'm assuming it was her legal name when Bill put her in his will. She was born in Utah (see Francis Hartigan, most of whose information seems to have come from a 1939 NYT article about her) as Helen Simis. She seems never to have used the name of her husband, Shepperd Strudwick. Not everyone ends up in the Social Security Death records, and if she did not I have clearly found the wrong Helen Wynn. She must have paid into Social Security, however, if she worked for the Grapevine and so would be expected to be on the list. Whether that is the correct death record or not, I am reasonably sure that she was neither "22 years younger than Lois" as some sources say, or "22 years younger than Bill" as other sources have it. She was born around 1907 which would make her 12 years younger than Bill. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5617. . . . . . . . . . . . What are the words to the Texas Prayer? From: priscilla_semmens . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/30/2009 10:22:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII April 1, 1940 - Larry J. of Houston is said to have written "The Texas Prayer," used to open AA meetings in Texas. Does anyone have the words to this prayer? - - - - From the moderator: Googling for AA and "Texas Prayer" gives a reference to Bill Pittman, "Stepping Stones to Recovery," p. 257, where Bill gave the following prayer and claimed that this was the Texas Prayer: ____________________ Our Father, we come to You as a friend. You have said that, where two or three are gathered in Your name, there You will be in the midst. We believe You are with us now. We believe this is something You would have us do, and that it has Your blessing. We believe that You want us to be real partners with You in this business of living, accepting our full responsibility, and certain that the rewards will be freedom, and growth, and happiness. For this, we are grateful. We ask You, at all times, to guide us. Help us daily to come closer to You, and grant us new ways of living our gratitude. ____________________ Can anyone verify whether this is actually a prayer written back in 1940? It does not sound like language and phraseology from 1940 to me. I would be willing to stand corrected on that however. Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5618. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: What are the words to the Texas Prayer? From: hartsell . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/31/2009 4:55:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have heard this or similar wording at larger Open Speaker meetings in Texas over the past 40+ years, but have no way of knowing if THIS is the referenced one, or IF there is one known as The Texas Prayer. sherry c.h. -----Original Message----- On Behalf Of priscilla_semmens Subject: What are the words to the Texas Prayer? April 1, 1940 - Larry J. of Houston is said to have written "The Texas Prayer," used to open AA meetings in Texas. Does anyone have the words to this prayer? - - - - From the moderator: Googling for AA and "Texas Prayer" gives a reference to Bill Pittman, "Stepping Stones to Recovery," p. 257, where Bill gave the following prayer and claimed that this was the Texas Prayer: ____________________ Our Father, we come to You as a friend. You have said that, where two or three are gathered in Your name, there You will be in the midst. We believe You are with us now. We believe this is something You would have us do, and that it has Your blessing. We believe that You want us to be real partners with You in this business of living, accepting our full responsibility, and certain that the rewards will be freedom, and growth, and happiness. For this, we are grateful. We ask You, at all times, to guide us. Help us daily to come closer to You, and grant us new ways of living our gratitude. ____________________ Can anyone verify whether this is actually a prayer written back in 1940? It does not sound like language and phraseology from 1940 to me. I would be willing to stand corrected on that however. Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5619. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: When did Helen Wynn die? From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/31/2009 8:26:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Evidence of ship passenger lists (ships docking in NYC) shows Helen Simis (b. Jan 17 1907) in 1930 and Helen Strudwick (b Jan 17 1907) in the 1940s. The Helen Wynn who died at Moroni in 1978 was b. Jan 17 1907: she is therefore the correct Helen Wynn. She was b. in Utah, the daughter of Richard and Lina Simis (both b. 1874) and had several siblings. Her husband Shepperd Strudwick (jr), 1907-1983, was married from 1977 to another wife but is recorded as having had a son by a previous marriage -- presumably the Shepperd Strudwick who was b. Los Angeles June 14 1944, mother's maiden name Simis. Shepperd Strudwick Jr (real name) and Helen Simis (Helen Wynn) were m. May 10, 1936. He m. his second wife by 1947, third in 1958, fourth (Mary Jeffrey) in 1977. Their son, Shepperd Strudwick III attended the Harvey School in Katonah, translated the French play L'Ete in 1973 and has been connected with the Williamstown Theatre, but I don't know where he is now, or if he's still alive (he'd only be 64). > To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > From: corafinch@yahoo.com > Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 12:56:24 +0000 > Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: When did Helen Wynn die? > > --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, > "chris fuccione" wrote: > > > > I have a quick question. Is Helen Wynn still > > alive? > > > > I assume not. But when did she die? > > > - - - - > > If someone has a better source, disregard this. Assuming that Helen Wynn was using that name at the time of her death, and that she is included in the Social Security Death Index, I believe she must have been the one who died in Moroni, Comoros in March 1978. The last address of that (American) Helen Wynn is listed as "Europe," and the Helen Wynn who knew Bill Wilson had been living in Ireland at the time of Bill's death. > > Caveats: Helen Wynn was originally her stage name although I'm assuming it was her legal name when Bill put her in his will. She was born in Utah (see Francis Hartigan, most of whose information seems to have come from a 1939 NYT article about her) as Helen Simis. She seems never to have used the name of her husband, Shepperd Strudwick. Not everyone ends up in the Social Security Death records, and if she did not I have clearly found the wrong Helen Wynn. She must have paid into Social Security, however, if she worked for the Grapevine and so would be expected to be on the list. > > Whether that is the correct death record or not, I am reasonably sure that she was neither "22 years younger than Lois" as some sources say, or "22 years younger than Bill" as other sources have it. She was born around 1907 which would make her 12 years younger than Bill. > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5620. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: What are the words to the Texas Prayer? From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/2/2009 11:09:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Glenn The prayer was written in March (not April) 1940 by Larry J the founder of AA in Texas (Cleveland, OH is the parent group of Texas). I have a collection of copies of correspondence among Larry J, Ruth Hock and Bobbi B. Included in the material is a copy of the prayer that is word for word the same as the text cited in your message. The prayer's title was "A.A. Prayer" and it concluded with "Amen." I don't believe that usage of the prayer went too far beyond Houston and don't know where Pittman got the idea that it did. There is much myth circulating regarding Texas AA (e.g. the "Texas Prayer" and "Texas Preamble") that have fragments of fact supplemented by anecdotal embellishments that are not factual. Larry J's downfall came almost as quickly as his miraculous rescue by the Cleveland Group. Larry was always in very poor physical condition - drunk or sober. He returned to IV drug use around the Spring of 1941 and then returned to drinking shortly thereafter and was never able to sober up again beyond brief intervals. Larry J passed away in May 1944. Arthur S -----Original Message----- From: priscilla_semmens Subject: What are the words to the Texas Prayer? April 1, 1940 - Larry J. of Houston is said to have written "The Texas Prayer," used to open AA meetings in Texas. Does anyone have the words to this prayer? - - - - From the moderator: Googling for AA and "Texas Prayer" gives a reference to Bill Pittman, "Stepping Stones to Recovery," p. 257, where Bill gave the following prayer and claimed that this was the Texas Prayer: ____________________ Our Father, we come to You as a friend. You have said that, where two or three are gathered in Your name, there You will be in the midst. We believe You are with us now. We believe this is something You would have us do, and that it has Your blessing. We believe that You want us to be real partners with You in this business of living, accepting our full responsibility, and certain that the rewards will be freedom, and growth, and happiness. For this, we are grateful. We ask You, at all times, to guide us. Help us daily to come closer to You, and grant us new ways of living our gratitude. ____________________ Can anyone verify this? Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5621. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Re: What pamphlets and books were sent out in Fall 1939? From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/3/2009 6:25:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There were a number of reprints circulated by the NY Office after publication of the Big Book in 1939 and prior to publication of the Houston Press articles by Larry J in early 1940. The reprints were often published in 9x5 inch booklet (or pamphlet) format. Shortly after relocating from Cleveland to Houston, Larry J sent a January 28, 1940 letter to Ruth Hock requesting copies of literature which he identified as Dr Fosdick's review of the Big Book, a July 1939 Journal-Lancet article by Dr Silkworth (pre-publication portions of which were included in "The Doctor's Opinion") and something called the "Mt. Airy Sanitarium bulletin" (which I've yet to see). These literature items are likely part of the "pamphlets" mentioned by Bill W in the Foreword to the Second Edition as being sent out in late 1939. There could have been other items reprinted as well, the NY office was always on the lookout for favorable public relations references. The published booklet (or pamphlet) of Larry J's articles first occurred with limited printings in February and March 1940. After Larry J received a release from the Houston Press, regular reprinting occurred from April 1940 on. The booklet also includes a supplement added to Larry J's articles that listed the Twelve Steps. Larry discussed the Steps in his articles but didn't list them. The booklet also includes the July 1939 Lancet-Journal article by Dr Silkworth. All of this follows closely after the time period mentioned by Bill W (i.e. the Fall to end of 1939). However, as noted below by Mitchell K, the publication is generally considered the AA Fellowship's first piece of "official" literature explicitly financed and approved by the Alcoholic Foundation. With the exception of the Big Book, the publication seems to be the only other piece of AA literature predominantly written by an AA member. The public relations blessing that sparked both the need for, and wide-spread distribution of, the booklet (or pamphlet) was likely the nation-wide publicity generated by the Rockefeller Dinner on February 8, 1940. As far as errors in Bill's memory, he states in the Foreword to the Second Edition that the Cleveland Group started in 1937 and he also omits mention of the 1939 Cleveland Plain Dealer articles which followed shortly after the Liberty Magazine article. The Cleveland Plain Dealer articles, in my judgment, had a much more profound effect than the Liberty magazine article. The combination of the two resulted in an outpouring of appeals for help in Cleveland that quickly propelled Cleveland membership to a level that dwarfed the combined membership of Akron and NY and kept it that way for some time after. Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Barton Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 9:58 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: What pamphlets and books were sent out in Fall 1939? Books only during the Fall of 1939! The first pamphlet wasn't until mid-1940 when the office published the Houston Press articles. Posted on silkworth.net http://www.silkworth.net/aahistory/houston_press1940.html The foreword to the 2nd edition was written about 15 years later so the error in memory (Bill's) is not unusual as to the time-line. The office was of course sending out Big Books beginning in early April of 39. PS Don't forget to celebrate the 70th birthday of our book on April 10, 2009. This was the date of publication listed on the copyright. John B - - - - From: "Mitchell K." (mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com) Hi Katie, The first official pamphlet published by the Alcoholic Foundation was simply titled "AA." It was basically a series of newspaper articles written by Larry Jewell who moved from Cleveland, Ohio to Houston, Texas after he sobered up and was sponsored by Clarence Snyder. Larry was offered a job with the Houston Press by its owner as Larry was an excellent reporter before his drinking took over. The books were the Big Book first published in April 1939. Mitchell Klein - - - - Original messafrom from katiebartlett79 (katiebartlett79 at yahoo.co.uk) Subject: What pamphlets and books were sent out in Fall 1939? Foreword to second edition, page xviii: "[5 months after the 1st ed. of the Big Book was published in April 1939,] in the fall of 1939 [in September] Fulton Oursler, then editor of Liberty, printed a piece in his magazine, called "Alcoholics and God." This brought a rush of 800 frantic inquiries into the little New York office which meanwhile had been established. Each inquiry was painstakingly answered; pamphlets and books were sent out ..... By the end of 1939 it was estimated that 800 alcoholics were on their way to recovery." My group and I would like to know if anyone knows what literature was sent out when it states that "pamphlets and books were sent out" from the New York AA office during the period running from September to December of 1939. Thanking u kindly, Katie from Barking Big Book Study ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5622. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: First Black Woman In AA? From: jbendzinski . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/1/2009 1:03:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I read on the International Women's Conference website that Bertha C. of Kansas City, MO was one of the first black women in Alcoholics Anonymous with lasting sobriety. The first conference was in 1965 and she was on the organizing committee. But I am having a world of trouble getting information about her or any other early African-American women in program. If you discover anything, please share with me! - - - - From the moderator: http://silkworth.net/aagrowth/iaawc_history.html says "Bertha C. informed me how she was the only black woman in AA for a time until Vernetta W. came in to the program." But it gives no date for when she got sober. Does anyone know more about her? Does anyone in Kansas City have any information about when Bertha came into the fellowship? GFC IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5623. . . . . . . . . . . . Early Black A.A. From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/6/2009 9:49:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The black A.A. people in north central Indiana were not the first in A.A. But we know more about their stories and teachings than any other group of early black A.A. men and women in the U.S. and Canada. ______________________________ Glenn C., "The Factory Owner & the Convict: Lives and Teachings of the A.A. Old Timers" http://hindsfoot.org/kfoc1.html In 1948, a man named Bill Hoover and a woman named Jimmy Miller became the first two black people to join A.A. in north central Indiana. Jimmy owned a highly successful bar in South Bend right across the street from the Studebaker automobile plant. Four chapters of this book are devoted to telling their story, much of it in Jimmy Miller's own words. PART SIX. Bill H. and Jimmy M.: Winning Inclusion for Black Alcoholics Chapter 17. Jimmy's Bar Chapter 18. The Interracial Group Chapter 19. Meetings and Steps in Early A.A. Chapter 20. He Knew It Was a God ______________________________ http://hindsfoot.org/nblack1.html http://hindsfoot.org/nblack2.html Jimmy Miller's Story: The First Lady of Black A.A. in the St. Joseph River Valley ______________________________ Glenn C., The St. Louis Gambler & the Railroad Man: Lives and Teachings of the A.A. Old Timers http://hindsfoot.org/kstl1.html Two other major early black leaders in that part of Indiana were Brownie (Harold Brown) in South Bend and Goshen Bill (William Henry Caldwell) in Elkhart and Goshen. Three chapters in this book are devoted to Brownie's story and his message, and three additional chapters to Goshen Bill. Again, most of this is in their own words. PART ONE. Brownie Chapter 1. The Professional Gambler and the St. Louis Blues Chapter 2. Down and Out in South Bend Chapter 3. Gratitude and the Man Who Had No Arms or Legs PART FOUR. Goshen Bill Chapter 9. Sleeping in a Dump Truck Chapter 10. Fish Stories and Chickens Flying South Chapter 11. Working the Twelve Steps ______________________________ http://hindsfoot.org/ndigsym.html shows photos of the meeting place called Brownie's at 616 Pierce St. in South Bend, site of annual pilgrimages by the Dignitaries Sympathy groups to honor the memory of the great black A.A. leader Brownie and his friend and fellow A.A. worker Nick Kowalski (an ex-con who got sober in one of the first A.A. prison groups in the United States). People travel from Chicago one month; from East Lansing, Michigan, another month; and sometimes from Bloomington in southern Indiana to give leads at Brownie's and give honor to the great black A.A. leader who started the Saturday evening meeting there (along with Raymond I., whom Brownie sponsored, who is still alive and active). ______________________________ The Wisdom of Goshen Bill http://hindsfoot.org/nkosc3gb.html ______________________________ http://hindsfoot.org/nblack1.html http://hindsfoot.org/nblack2.html http://hindsfoot.org/nblack3.html "Early Black A.A. along the Chicago-Gary-South Bend Axis" The Stories and Memories of Early Black Leaders Told in Their Own Words. Some of the earliest black A.A. groups in the United States were formed c. 1945-48 along an axis running from Chicago eastward through Gary to South Bend, Indiana. These three cities were linked by an interurban rail line called the South Shore Railroad which made it easy for people to travel back and forth. We know much more at present about early black A.A. in this area than we do about any other part of the United States. INCLUDES: (a) Interview with Bill Williams of the Evans Avenue A.A. Group in Chicago (came into A.A. in Chicago in 1945). (b) Jimmy Miller's Story: The First Lady of Black A.A. in the St. Joseph River Valley (c) Bill Williams' Story: Coming from Chicago to speak to the white A.A.'s in South Bend (d) Two early South Bend answers to racism: (1) Brownie's meeting place at 616 Pierce Street, just off Portage Avenue near downtown South Bend, and (2) Bill Hoover's Interracial Group. (e) South Bend in 1948 and 1949 (f) Chicago in 1945: The first black people to join A.A. in Chicago ______________________________ http://hindsfoot.org/ngary1js.html John Shaifer: A major Indiana early black A.A. leader from Gary. His work with prisoners all over the state. His lead and an interview with him. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5624. . . . . . . . . . . . Study of access to and continuance in Alcoholics Anonymous From: loranarcher . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/8/2009 12:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The 1990 AA World Services analysis of the AA Triennials Membership surveys noted that one of the surveys' limitations was the lack of information on "drop outs". To provide this information I did an analysis of data from NIAAA 1992 National Longitudinal Alcohol Epidemiologic Survey (NLAES) to describe and compare 1) those who never attended AA, 2) those who attended AA and dropped out, and 3) those who continued to attend AA. The key findings from the study are: · These data from a nationally representative sample of US adults with alcohol use disorders revealed a robust significant association of high symptom severity with access, continuation and discontinuation from Alcoholics Anonymous. · The association of high symptom severity and negative life events supports the behavioral economic model of AA access and continuation as proposed in this study. · Variables associated with access to AA were also associated with continuation in AA, except for the variables for gender and education level. Women were less likely to attend AA, but more likely to continue attending AA. College educated respondents were less likely to attend AA, but more likely to continue attending AA. · A sub-group of US adults with severe externalizing disorders, identified in this study, are associated with access to and continuation in AA. The measure of high severity in this study appears to replicate the AA concept of "real alcoholics" as described in Chapter Three of the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous. · In the US there is a significant geographic regional variation in access to and continuation in AA: Highest access in the West and lowest in the South The complete study report is available online as a Google Knol: A Model of Access to and Continuance in Alcoholics Anonymous http://knol.google.com/k/loran-archer/a-model-of-access-to-and-continuance-i n/33\ nxpux3imfog/4 [6] Loran - - - - Note from the moderator: The full-length paper (whose URL is given above) has some extremely interesting and informative bar graphs which display who is more likely, and who is less likely, to attend AA meetings. Some make good sense by normal AA experience. Having a serious automobile accident because of drinking increases the chance that the alcoholic will start attending AA meetings. Some of the data was surprising to me, however. Loran Archer (who is one of the really great alcoholism researchers) did not find any significant racial differences. Blacks were just as likely as whites to start going to AA meetings under the same circumstances, for example, according to his data. Men are more apt than women to START going to AA meetings. But once they are attending meetings, women are more apt than men to KEEP ON GOING to meetings. Glenn Chesnut IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5625. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: First Black Woman In AA? From: Cindy Miller . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/6/2009 10:27:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I recently attended a wonderful all-day event in Washington, DC, which was a celebration of the Cosmopolitan Group, first known as the "Washington Colored Group". Quoting from the program that was given out: "....The Group of approximately 15 men & women....grew to nearly 30 members in the second year." (That would be 1946.) -cm P.S. Here in Philadelphia, one of our long-time black female members, Julia S., will soon be celebrating 50 years. - - - - From: jm48301@aol.com (jm48301 at aol.com) Of possible interest: http://www.internationalwomensconference.org/history.html - - - - From: jenny andrews (jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com) Then of course there is "Jim's Story" in the Big Book: "This physician, one of the earliest members of AA's first black group, tells how freedom came as he worked among his people." (His people, presumably the black community). Anecdotally I've heard that in the Troubles in northern Ireland AA meetings were one of the few places where Catholics and Protestants sat down together in peace; and blacks and whites in apartheid south Africa (though perhaps that was a clandestine arrangement). Maybe the respective GSO's could confirm .... IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5626. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill''s experiment with keeping liquor in the house From: Keith . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/27/2009 6:29:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I agree with Clyde G. Regardless of why Bill W. did it, we know that in the years before rehab centers, alcoholics had to detox each other, and it was 'necessary' to keep whiskey or such in certain homes in those days! I don't defend it in any alcoholic's home, but on the other hand if we have worked the 12 steps, then we can apply BB pg. 101-102. That statement, let us remember, is in the context of having worked all 12 steps. It says at top of page 101 that we should NOT be around such if we are weak. Again the context is that after working steps, we should have some emotional muscle, and be able to be in people's homes without craving, since we have now 'reached a point of neutrality' regarding alcohol. I thought this might be helpful for some of the newer recovering alcoholics on this list. Keith R. --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "CloydG" wrote: > > Perhaps it comes from the practice, described > on page 103 of "Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers," > of giving small amounts of alcohol periodically > to alcoholics who were detoxing, over the first > day or two or three, to help keep them from > going into the DTs. > > Clyde G. > - - - - From: Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com) I do not know if it still is looked on as true, but years ago, they used to say the first 36 hours were the worse for alcoholics, and they had to watch out that withdrawal did not kill the alcoholics. The saying was that drug addicts detoxifying had it rougher than alcoholics but alcoholics could die in those first hours. In the absence of trained medical people some form of gradual withdrawal might be best. My interest would be that we did not do anything to the sufferer to endanger him. - - - - From: jenny andrews (jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com) "Many (sic) of us keep liquor in our homes. We often need it to carry green recruits through a severe hangover..." (Big Book, page 102, fourth edition). However, "These allergic types can never safely use alcohol in any form at all ..." (The Doctor's Opinion, page xxviii op cit my emphasis). So when we say, "It's the first drink that does the damage", it ain't necessarily so. Bill gave Dr Bob a bottle of beer to calm his nerves prior to to his carrying out a surgical procedure on 10 June 1935. As far as we know, and we have no reason to doubt it, that was Dr Bob's last drink, and the date of AA's foundation (Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age, page 71 my edition). And how does Dr Bob's advice about keeping out of wet places square with contrary advice in the Big Book, viz: "If you are with a person who wants to eat in a bar, by all means go along... You should not hesitate to visit the most sordid spot on earth on such an errand (to be helpful to others)." (Big Book ibid) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5627. . . . . . . . . . . . Seven-year-old Ignatia sails from Ireland on the SS Indiana From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/10/2009 1:57:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Now with photographs of the ship and harbor. http://hindsfoot.org/ignatia3.html Seven-year-old Ignatia sails from Ireland to America in 1896: emigration records showing the Gavin family sailing from Queenstown (now Cobh) in Cork on the SS Indiana on 2 April 1896, arriving in Philadelphia on 17 April 1896. From Irish AA historian Fiona D. (County Mayo) (See http://hindsfoot.org/archives.html for other material from Fiona on Sister Ignatia.) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5628. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: What pamphlets and books were sent out in Fall 1939? From: elg3_79 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/11/2009 9:44:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Arthur S" wrote: > > Shortly after relocating from Cleveland to Houston, Larry J sent a January > 28, 1940 letter to Ruth Hock requesting copies of literature which he > identified as Dr Fosdick's review of the Big Book, a July 1939 > Journal-Lancet article by Dr Silkworth (pre-publication portions of which > were included in "The Doctor's Opinion") and something called the "Mt. Airy > Sanitarium bulletin" (which I've yet to see). Pursuant to this, I searched for a while for the mystery document from the Mt. Airy Sanitarium, it having rung a bell somewhere deep in my memory .. Googling turned up towns or areas called "Mt. Airy" which had sanitariums in the first half of the 20th century, very likely treating alcoholics, in Maryland, Colorado and Pennsylvania. Does anyone know which one might be the producer of the bulletin? (Maryland's Garrett Sanitarium is long disused, but there may be traces of the institutions active in the 1930s available in the Philadelphia and Denver areas.) Thanks for the train of thought, Ted G. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5629. . . . . . . . . . . . State liquor agency mentioned in The Doctors Nightmare From: aadavidi . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/12/2009 11:10:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In "DOCTOR BOB'S NIGHTMARE" is the following statement (Big Book page 171): "No beer or liquor was sold in the neighborhood, except at the State liquor agency where perhaps one might procure a pint if he could convince the agent that he really needed it. Without this proof the expectant purchaser would be forced to depart empty handed with none of what I later came to believe was the great panacea for all human ills. Men who had liquor shipped in from Boston or New York by express were looked upon with great distrust and disfavor by most of the good townspeople." Can anyone offer a clear description of the function of the Vermont State liquor agency in the late 1800's and why a person couldn't purchase all he or she wanted? [Dr. Bob was born August 8, 1879 in St. Johnsbury, Vermont, where he was raised. He graduated from Dartmouth College in Hanover, New Hampshire, in 1902.] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5630. . . . . . . . . . . . Is the silkworth.net site down? From: jm48301 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/12/2009 4:12:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Is there a reason, beyond my own incompetence, why I am unable to access the Silkworth site? I have tried both of these: http://www.silkworth.net/ http://silkworth.net/ IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5631. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: State liquor agency mentioned in Doctor Bob''s Nightmare From: jeffyour . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/13/2009 9:18:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This article from the June 18, 1902 New York Times is an editorial on the issue of Prohibition (of Alcohol), which had been in place in Vermont for fifty years already then. That's why the state agent was circumspect of any request for alcohol. http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9C00E1D61130E132A2575 BC1A\ 9609C946397D6CF [7] see also: http://www.econlib.org/library/YPDBooks/Lalor/llCy868.html which gives dates of passage of the "Maine Law" for several NE US states. Jeffrey A. Your 216.691.0917 home Past Delegate 216.397.4244 work Panel 57, Area 54 216.397.1803 fax ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > In "DOCTOR BOB'S NIGHTMARE" is the following > statement (Big Book page 171): > > "No beer or liquor was sold in the neighborhood, except at the State liquor agency where perhaps one might procure a pint if he could convince the agent that he really needed it. Without this proof the expectant purchaser would be forced to depart empty handed with none of what I later came to believe was the great panacea for all human ills. Men who had liquor shipped in from Boston or New York by express were looked upon with great distrust and disfavor by most of the good townspeople." > > Can anyone offer a clear description of the function of the Vermont State liquor agency in the late 1800's and why a person couldn't purchase all he or she wanted? > > [Dr. Bob was born August 8, 1879 in St. Johnsbury, Vermont, where he was raised. He graduated from Dartmouth College in Hanover, New Hampshire, in 1902.] > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5633. . . . . . . . . . . . Correct date of Sister Ignatia''s birth: 1 January 1889 From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/13/2009 2:15:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII http://hindsfoot.org/ignatia4.html "Sister Ignatia: baptismal record (birth certificate) and the passenger manifest for the SS Indiana," from Fiona D. (County Mayo) Sister Ignatia's date of birth, as given in some of the older historical sources, needs to be corrected. Born Bridget Gavin, this photograph of her baptismal record shows that she was born on 1 January 1889. This is the date which should be used. Also photographs of the three sheets of the original passenger manifest showing Sister Ignatia and her family embarking on the SS Indiana. From Irish AA historian Fiona D. (County Mayo). - - - - ALL FOUR ITEMS FROM THAT SOURCE http://hindsfoot.org/archives.html http://hindsfoot.org/ignatia1.html Sister Ignatia's birthplace in Ireland Photos of the just discovered ruins of the two-roomed stone cottage where Sister Ignatia Gavin, the Angel of Alcoholics Anonymous, was born on 1 January 1889 at Shanvalley, Burren, in County Mayo. Photos and description (13 July 2008) by the Irish AA historian Fiona D. http://hindsfoot.org/ignatia2.html More on Sister Ignatia's birthplace in Ireland: The Neary family's rental holdings in Griffith's Land Valuation of 1855 When Patrick Gavin and Barbara Neary (Ignatia's father and mother) got married, the couple set up housekeeping in a part of County Mayo where numerous members of the Neary family lived, renting land on the Earl of Lucan's estate. From Irish AA historian and archivist Fiona D. in County Mayo. http://hindsfoot.org/ignatia3.html Seven-year-old Ignatia sails from Ireland to America in 1896 Emigration records showing the Gavin family sailing from Queenstown (now Cobh) in Cork on the SS Indiana on 2 April 1896, arriving in Philadelphia on 17 April 1896, with photographs of the ship and harbor. From Irish AA historian Fiona D. (County Mayo). http://hindsfoot.org/ignatia4.html Sister Ignatia: baptismal record (birth certificate) and the passenger manifest for the SS Indiana Sister Ignatia's date of birth, as given in some of the older historical sources, needs to be corrected. Born Bridget Gavin, this photograph of her baptismal record shows that she was born on 1 January 1889. This is the date which should be used. Also photographs of the three sheets of the original passenger manifest showing Sister Ignatia and her family embarking on the SS Indiana. From Irish AA historian Fiona D. (County Mayo). IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5634. . . . . . . . . . . . Markings AA archives newsletter From: Cindy Miller . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/17/2009 8:40:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Mornin' All- Could someone help me out by giving me the web address for "Markings"? I can't seem to find it... Thanks. -cm `·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º> - - - - From the moderator: Markings - Your Archives Interchange (Newsletter) http://www.aa.org/lang/en/subpage.cfm?page=24 CURRENT ISSUE: http://www.aa.org/lang/en/en_pdfs/f-151_markings_winter08.pdf IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5635. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Is the silkworth.net site down? From: doclandis@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/13/2009 12:00:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "This web site silkworth.net is currently unavailable due to exceeded monthly traffic quota. Please visit again later." I hope someone can shed some better light on the situation. Mark - - - - From: Buzz G (buzzgould at gmail.com) When I go to both of those pages, I get this message: "This website www.silkworth.net is currently unavailable due to exceeded monthly traffic quota. Please visit again later." A few years ago this use to happen at the end of the month. Not good to see this error message on the 11th :( - - - - From: "Ben Humphreys" (blhump272 at sctv.coop) You did the right thing by asking a question. It works every time. Ben - - - - "Exceeded monthly traffice" also from: DOROTHY BENSON (dd11983 at yahoo.com) "Bob McK." (bobnotgod2 at att.net) - - - - Original message from (jm48301 at aol.com) > > > Is there a reason, beyond my own incompetence, > why I am unable to access the Silkworth site? > > I have tried both of these: > > _http://www.silkworthttp:/_ (http://www.silkworth.net/) > > _http://silkworth.http_ (http://silkworth.net/) > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5636. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Is the silkworth.net site down? From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/13/2009 5:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Could someone on this listserv familiar with the workings of the silkworth site inform us whether the screen showing excessive monthly use of site (or whatever the phrase is) in fact represents hacking into the site and possibly a virus released? If not, does anyone know how long the site will be down? - - - - From: "allan_gengler" (agengler at wk.net) The host states: "This website silkworth.net is currently unavailable due to exceeded monthly traffic quota. Please visit again later." So too many people have visited it or some hack ran a denial of service against it. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5637. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Markings AA archives newsletter From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/17/2009 5:15:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The Markings portal webpage is www.aa.org/lang/en/subpage.cfm?page=24, from which you can access copies. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5638. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Markings AA archives newsletter From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/17/2009 5:09:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Link is below (or enter the word "markings" in the "Search our site" box and it will take you there. http://aa.org/results.cfm?results=markings Sign up for a digital subscription. You can use the AA.org search function to get to all kinds of goodies on the web site. Cheers Arthur IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5639. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Daily Reflections From: buckjohnson41686 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/17/2009 2:41:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I don't see them in the 2nd printing (nov 1990) :) -- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "tomper87" wrote: > > I have a first printing of The Daily Reflections > which does not include the listing of The > Twelve Steps and The Twelve Traditions. Can > anyone tell me at which printing they were > added to the book? > > Thank you. > > Tom P. > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5640. . . . . . . . . . . . Niacin, AA, Bill W and Abram Hoffer From: Fiona Dodd . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/18/2009 1:08:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Vitamin B-3: Niacin and Its Amide by A. Hoffer, M.D., Ph.D. The first water soluble vitamins were numbered in sequence according to priority of discovery. But after their chemical structure was determined they were given scientific names. The third one to be discovered was the anti-pellagra vitamin before it was shown to be niacin. But the use of the number B-3 did not stay in the literature very long. It was replaced by nicotinic acid and its amide (also known medically as niacin and its amide). The name was changed to remove the similarity to nicotine, a poison. The term vitamin B-3 was reintroduced by my friend Bill W., co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous, (Bill Wilson). We met in New York in 1960. Humphry Osmond and I introduced him to the concept of mega vitamin therapy. We described the results we had seen with our schizophrenic patients, some of whom were also alcoholic. We also told him about its many other properties. It was therapeutic for arthritis, for some cases of senility and it lowered cholesterol levels. Bill was very curious about it and began to take niacin, 3 g daily. Within a few weeks fatigue and depression which had plagued him for years were gone. He gave it to 30 of his close friends in AA and persuaded them to try it. Within 6 months he was convinced that it would be very helpful to alcoholics. Of the thirty, 10 were free of anxiety, tension and depression in one month. Another 10 were well in two months. He decided that the chemical or medical terms for this vitamin were not appropriate. He wanted to persuade members of AA, especially the doctors in AA, that this would be a useful addition to treatment and he needed a term that could be more readily popularized. He asked me the names that had been used. I told him it was originally known as vitamin B-3. This was the term Bill wanted. In his first report to physicians in AA he called it "The Vitamin B-3 Therapy." Thousands of copies of this extraordinary pamphlet were distributed. Eventually the name came back and today even the most conservative medical journals are using the term vitamin B-3. Bill became unpopular with the members of the board of AA International. The medical members who had been appointed by Bill, felt that he had no business messing about with treatment using vitamins. They also "knew" vitamin B-3 could not be therapeutic as Bill had found it to be. For this reason Bill provided information to the medical members of AA outside of the National Board, distributing three of his amazing pamphlets. They are now not readily available. Vitamin B-3 exists as the amide in nature, in nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide (NAD). Pure nicotinamide and niacin are synthetics. Niacin was known as a chemical for about 100 years before it was recognized to be vitamin B-3. It is made from nicotine, a poison produced in the tobacco plant to protect itself against its predators, but in the wonderful economy of nature which does not waste any structures, when the nicotine is simplified by cracking open one of the rings, it becomes the immensely valuable vitamin B-3. Vitamin B-3 is made in the body from the amino acid tryptophan. On the average 1 mg of vitamin B-3 is made from 60 mg of tryptophan, about 1.5% Since it is made in the body it does not meet the definition of a vitamin; these are defined as substances that can not be made. It should have been classified with the amino acids, but long usage of the term vitamin has given it permanent status as a vitamin. The 1.5% conversion rate is a compromise based upon the conversion of tryptophan to N-methyl nicotinamide and its metabolites in human subjects. I suspect that one day in the far distant future none of the tryptophan will be converted into vitamin B-3 and it then will truly be a vitamin. According to Horwitt [1], the amount converted is not inflexible but varies with patients and conditions. For example, women pregnant in their last three months convert tryptophan to niacin metabolites three times as efficiently as in non-pregnant females. Also there is evidence that contraceptive steroids, estrogens, stimulate tryptophan oxygenase, the enzyme that converts the tryptophan into niacin. This observation raises some interesting speculations. Women, on average, live longer then men. It has been shown for men that giving them niacin increases their longevity. [2] Is the increased longevity in women the result of greater conversion of tryptophan into niacin under the stimulus of their increase in estrogen production? Does the same phenomenon explain the decrease in the incidence of coronary disease in women? The best-known vitamin deficiency disease is pellagra. More accurately it is a tryptophan deficiency disease since tryptophan alone can cure the early stages. Pellagra was endemic in the southern U.S.A. until the beginning of the last world war. It can be described by the four D's: dermatitis, diarrhea, dementia and death. The dementia is a late stage phenomenon. In the early stages it resembles much more the schizophrenias, and can only with difficulty be distinguished from it. The only certain method used by early pellagrologists was to give their patients in the mental hospitals small amounts of nicotinic acid. If they recovered they diagnosed them pellagra, if they did not they diagnosed them schizophrenia. This was good for some of their patients but was not good for psychiatry since it prevented any continuing interest in working with the vitamin for their patients who did not recover fast, but who might have done so had they given them a lot more for a much longer period of time, the way we started doing this in Saskatchewan. I consider it one of the schizophrenic syndromes. Indications I have been involved in establishing two of the major uses for vitamin B-3, apart from its role in preventing and treating pellagra. These are its action in lowering high cholesterol levels [3] and in elevating high density lipoprotein cholesterol levels (HDL), and its therapeutic role in the schizophrenias and other psychiatric conditions. It has been found helpful for many other diseases or conditions. These are psychiatric disorders including children with learning and behavioral disorders, the addictions including alcoholism and drug addiction, the schizophrenias, some of the senile states. Its efficacy for a large number of both mental and physical conditions is an advantage to patients and to their doctors who use the vitamin, but is difficult to accept by the medical profession raised on the belief that there must be one drug for each disease, and that when any substance appears to be too effective for many conditions, it must be due entirely to its placebo effect, something like the old snake oils. I have thought about this for a long time and have within the past year become convinced that this vitamin is so versatile because it moderates or relieves the body of the pernicious effect of chronic stress. It therefore frees the body to carry on its routine function of repairing itself more efficiently. The current excitement in medicine is the recognition that hyperoxidation, the formation of free radicals, is one of the basic damaging processes in the body. These hyperexcited molecules destroy molecules and damage tissues at the cellular level and at the tissue level. All living tissue which depends on oxygen for respiration has to protect itself against these free radicals. Plants use one type of antioxidants and animals use another type. Fortunately there is a wide overlap and the same antioxidants such as vitamin C are used by both plants and animals. There is growing recognition that the system adrenaline -> adrenochrome plays a major role in the reactions to stress. I have elaborated this in a further report for this journal. [4] The catecholamines, of which adrenalin is the best known example, and the aminochromes, of which adrenochrome is the best known example, are intimately involved in stress reactions. Therefore to moderate the influence of stress or to negate it, one must use compounds which prevent these substances from damaging the body. Vitamin B-3 is a specific antidote to adrenalin, and the antioxidants such as vitamin C, Vitamin E, beta carotene, selenium and others protect the body against the effect of the free radicals by removing them more rapidly from the body. Any disease or condition which is stress related ought therefore to respond to the combined use of vitamin B-3 and these antioxidants provided they are all given in optimum doses, whether small or large as in orthomolecular therapy. I will therefore list briefly the many indications for the use of vitamin B-3. For each condition I will describe one case to illustrate the therapeutic response. For each condition I can refer to hundreds and thousands of case histories and have already in the literature described many of them in detail. [5] Psychiatric 1) The Schizophrenias. I have reviewed this for this journal. [6] 2) Children with Learning and/or Behavioral Disorders. In 1960 seven year-old Bruce came to see me with his father. Bruce had been diagnosed as mentally retarded. He could not read, could not concentrate, and was developing serious behavioral problems such as cutting school without his parents' knowledge. He was being prepared for special classes for the retarded. He excreted large amounts of kryptopyrrole, the first child to be tested. I started him on nicotinamide, one gram tid. Within four months he was well. He graduated from high school, is now married, has been fully employed and has been paying income tax. He is one case out of about 1500 I have seen since 1960. Current treatment is more complicated as described in this Journal. [7] 3) Organic Confusional States, non-Alzheimers forms of dementia, electroconvulsive therapy-induced memory disturbances. In 1954 I observed how nicotinic acid relieved a severe case of post ECT amnesia in one month. Since then I have routinely given it in conjunction with ECT to markedly decrease the memory disturbance that may occur during and after this treatment. I would never give any patient ECT without the concomitant use of nicotinic acid. It is very helpful, especially in cardiovascular-induced forms of dementia as it reverses sludging of the red blood cell and permits proper oxygenation of the cells of the body. For further information see Niacin Therapy in Psychiatry. [8] In September 1992, Mr. C., 76 years-old, requested help with his memory. He was terribly absentminded. If he decided to do something, by the time he arrived where he wanted to do it he had forgotten what it was he wanted to do. His short-term memory was very poor and his long-term memory was beginning to be affected. I started him on a comprehensive vitamin program including niacinamide 1.5 G daily. Within a month he began to improve. I added niacin to his program. By February 1993 he was normal. April 26, 1993, he told me he had been so well he had concluded he no longer needed any niacin and decreased the dose from 3.0 G to 1.5 G daily. He remained on the rest of the program. Soon he noted that his short term memory was failing him again. I advised him to stay on the full dose the rest of his life. 4) An antidote against d-LSD,9,10 and against adrenochrome. [5] 5) Alcoholism. Bill W. conducted the first clinical trial of the use of nicotinic for treating members of Alcoholics Anonymous. [11] He found that 20 out of thirty subjects were relieved of their anxiety, tension and fatigue in two months of taking this vitamin, 1 G tid. I found it very useful in treating patients who were both alcoholic and schizophrenic. The first large trial was conducted by David Hawkins who reported a better than 90% recovery rate on about 90 patients. Since then it has been used by many physicians who treat alcoholics. Dr. Russell Smith in Detroit has reported the largest series of patients. [12] Physical 1. Cardiovascular Of the two major findings made by my research group in Saskatchewan, the nicotinic acid-cholesterol connection is well known and nicotinic acid is used worldwide as an economical, effective and safe compound for lowering cholesterol and elevating high density cholesterol. As a result of my interest in nicotinic acid, Altschul, Hoffer and Stephen [3] discovered that this vitamin, given in gram doses per day, lowered cholesterol levels. Since then it was found it also elevates high density lipoprotein cholesterol thus bringing the ratio of total over HDL to below 5. In the National Coronary Study, Canner [2] showed that nicotinic acid decreased mortality and prolonged life. Between 1966 and 1975, five drugs used to lower cholesterol levels were compared to placebo in 8341 men, ages 30 to 64, who had suffered a myocardial infarction at least three months before entering the study. About 6000 were alive at the end of the study. Nine years later, only niacin had decreased the death rate significantly from all causes. Mortality decreased 11% and longevity increased by two years. The death rate from cancer was also decreased. This was a very fortunate finding because it led to the approval by the FDA of this vitamin in mega doses for cholesterol problems and opened up the use of this vitamin in large doses for other conditions as well. This occurred at a time when the FDA was doing its best not to recognize the value of megavitamin therapy. Its position has not altered over the past four decades. Our finding opened up the second major wave of interest in vitamins. The first wave started around 1900 when it was shown that these compounds were very effective in small doses in curing vitamin deficiency diseases and in preventing their occurrence. This was the preventive phase of vitamin use. The second wave recognized that they have therapeutic properties not directly related to vitamin deficiency diseases but may have to be used in large doses. This was the second or present wave wherein vitamins are used in therapy for more than deficiency diseases. Our discovery that nicotinic acid was an hypocholesterolemic compound is credited as the first paper to initiate the second wave and paved the way for orthomolecular medicine which came along several years later. 2. Arthritis I first observed the beneficial effects of vitamin B-3 in 1953 and 1954. I was then exploring the potential benefits and side effects from this vitamin. Several of the patients who were given this vitamin would report after several months that their arthritis was better. At first this was a surprise since in the psychiatric history I had taken I had not asked about joint pain. This report of improvement happened so often I could not ignore it. A few years later I discovered that Prof. W. Kaufman had studied the use of this vitamin for the arthritides before 1950 and had published two books describing his remarkable results. [13] Since that time this vitamin has been a very important component of the orthomolecular regimen for treating arthritis. The following case illustrates both the response which can occur and the complexity of the orthomolecular regimen. Patients who are early into their arthritis respond much more effectively and are not left with residual disability. K.V. came to my office April 15, 1982. She was in a wheelchair pushed by her husband. He was exhausted, depressed, and she was one of the sickest patients I have ever seen. She weighed under 90 pounds. She sat in the chair on her ankles which were crossed beneath her body because she was not able to straighten them out. Her arms were held in front of her, close to her body, and her fingers were permanently deformed and claw-like. She told me she had been deeply depressed for many years because of the severe pain and her major impairment. As she was being wheeled into my office I saw how ill she was and immediately concluded there was nothing I could do for her, and had to decide how I could let her know without sending her even deeper into despair. However I changed my mind when she suddenly said, "Dr. Hoffer, I know no one can ever cure me but if you could only help me with my pain. The pain in my back is unbearable. I just want to get rid of the pain in my back." I realized then she had a lot of determination and inner strength and that it was worthwhile to try and help her. She began to suffer from severe pain in her joints in 1952. In 1957 it was diagnosed as arthritis. Until 1962 her condition fluctuated and then she had to go into a wheelchair some part of the day. She was still able to walk although not for long until 1967. In 1969 she depended on the wheelchair most of the time, and by 1973 she was there permanently. For awhile she was able to propel herself with her feet. After that she was permanently dependent on help. For the three years before she saw me she had gotten some home care but most of the care was provided by her husband. He had retired from his job when I first saw them. He provided the nursing care equivalent to four nurses on 8 hour shifts including holiday time. He had to carry her to the bathroom, bathe her, cook and feed her. He was as exhausted as she was but he was able to carry on. She was severely deformed, especially her hands, suffered continuous pain, worse in her arms, and hips and her back. Her ankles were badly swollen and she had to wear pressure bandages. Her muscles also were very painful most of the day. She was able to feed herself and to crochet with her few useful fingers, but it must have been extremely difficult. She was not able to write nor type which she used to do with a pencil. A few months earlier she had been suicidal. On top of this severe pain and discomfort she had no appetite, was not hungry and a full meal would nauseate her. Her skin was dry, she had patches of eczema, and she had white areas in her nails. I advised her to eliminate sugar, potatoes, tomatoes and peppers, (about 10% of arthritics have allergic reactions to the solanine family of plants). She was to add niacinamide 500 mg four times daily (following the work of W. Kaufman), ascorbic acid 500 mg four times daily (as an anti-stress nutrient and for subclinical scurvy), pyridoxine 250 mg per day (found to have anti-arthritic properties by Dr. J. Ellis), zinc sulfate 220 mg per day (the white areas in her nails indicated she was deficient in zinc), flaxseed oil 2 tablespoons and cod liver oil 1 tablespoon per day (her skin condition indicated she had a deficiency of omega 3 essential fatty acids). The detailed treatment of arthritis and the references are described in my book. [14] One month later a new couple came into my room. Her husband was smiling, relaxed and cheerful as he pushed his wife in in her chair. She was sitting with her legs dangling down, smiling as well. I immediately knew that she was a lot better. I began to ask her about her various symptoms she had had previously. After a few minutes she impatiently broke in to say, "Dr. Hoffer, the pain in my back is all gone." She no longer bled from her bowel, she no longer bruised all over her body, she was more comfortable, the pain in her back was easily controlled with aspirin and was gone from her hips, (it had not helped before). She was cheerful and laughed in my office. Her heart was regular at last. I added inositol niacinate 500 mg four times daily to her program. She came back June 17, 1982, and had improved even more. She was able to pull herself up from the prone position on her bed for the first time in 15 years, and she was free of depression. I increased her ascorbic acid to 1 gram four times daily and added vitamin E 800 IU. Because she had shown such dramatic improvement I advised her she need no longer come to see me. September 1, 1982, she called me on the telephone. I asked her how she was getting along. She said she was making even more progress. I then asked her how had she been able to get to the phone. She replied she was able to get around alone in her chair. Then she added she had not called for herself but for her husband. He had been suffering from a cold for a few days, she was nursing him, and she wanted some advice for him. After another visit October 28, 1983, I wrote to her doctor "Today Mrs. K.V. reported she had stayed on the whole vitamin program very rigorously for 18 months, but since that time had slacked off somewhat. She is regaining a lot of her muscle strength, can now sit in her wheelchair without difficulty, can also wheel herself around in her wheelchair but, of course, can not do anything useful with her hands because her fingers are so awful. She would like to become more independent and perhaps could do so if something could be done about her fingers and also about her hip. I am delighted she has arranged to see a plastic surgeon to see if something can be done to get her hand mobilized once more. I have asked her to continue with the vitamins but because she had difficulty taking so many pills she will take a preparation called Multijet which is available from Portland and contains all the vitamins and minerals and can be dissolved in juice. She will also take inositol niacinate 3 grams daily." I saw her again March 24, 1988. About 4 of her vertebra had collapsed and she was suffering more pain which was alleviated by Darvon. It had not been possible to treat her hands surgically. She had been able to eat by herself until six months before this last visit. She had been taking small amounts of vitamins. She was able to use a motorized chair. She had been depressed. I wrote to her doctor, "She had gone off the total vitamin program about two or three years ago. It is very difficult for her to swallow and I can understand her reluctance to carry on with this. I have therefore suggested that she take a minimal program which would include inositol niacinate 3 grams daily, ascorbic acid 1 gram three times, linseed oil 2 capsules and cod liver oil 2 capsules. Her spirits are good and I think she is coming along considering the severe deterioration of her body as a result of the arthritis over the past few decades." She was last seen by her doctor in the fall of 1989. Her husband was referred. I saw him May 18, 1982. He complained of headaches and a sense of pressure about his head present for three years. This followed a series of light strokes. I advised him to take niacin 3 grams daily plus other vitamins including vitamin C. By September 1983 he was well and when seen last March 24, 1988 was still normal. 3. Juvenile Diabetes Dr. Robert Elliot, Professor of Child Health Research at University of Auckland Medical School is testing 40,000 five-year old children for the presence of specific antibodies that indicate diabetes will develop. Those who have the antibodies will be given nicotinamide. This will prevent the development of diabetes in most the children who are vulnerable. According to the Rotarian for March 1993 this project began 8 years ago and has 3200 relatives in the study. Of these, 182 had antibodies and 76 were given nicotinamide. Only 5 have become diabetic compared to 37 that would have been expected. Since 1988 over 20,100 school children have been tested. None have become diabetic compared to 47 from the untested comparable group. A similar study is underway in London, Ontario. 4. Cancer Recent findings have shown that vitamin B-3 does have anti-cancer properties. This was discussed at a meeting in Texas in 1987, Jacobson and Jacobson. [15] The topic of this international conference was "Niacin, Nutrition, ADP-Ribosylation and Cancer," and was the 8th conference of this series. Niacin, niacinamide and nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide (NAD) are interconvertable via a pyridine nucleotide cycle. NAD, the coenzyme, is hydrolyzed or split into niacinamide and adenosine dinucleotide phosphate (ADP-ribose). Niacinamide is converted into niacin, which in turn is once more built into NAD. The enzyme which splits ADP is known as poly (ADP-ribose) polymerase, or poly (ADP) synthetase, or poly (ADP-ribose) transferase. Poly (ADP-ribose) polymerase is activated when strands of deoxyribonucleic acid (DNA) are broken. The enzyme transfers NAD to the ADP-ribose polymer, binding it onto a number of proteins. The poly (ADP-ribose) activated by DNA breaks helps repair the breaks by unwinding the nucleosomal structure of damaged chromatids. It also may increase the activity of DNA ligase. This enzyme cuts damaged ends off strands of DNA and increases the cell's capacity to repair itself. Damage caused by any carcinogenic factor, radiation, chemicals, is thus to a degree neutralized or counteracted. Jacobson and Jacobson, conference organizers, hypothesized that niacin prevents cancer. They treated two groups of human cells with carcinogens. The group given adequate niacin developed tumors at a rate only 10% of the rate in the group deficient in niacin. Dr. M. Jacobson is quoted as saying, "We know that diet is a major risk factor, that diet has both beneficial and detrimental components. What we cannot assess at this point is the optimal amount of niacin in the diet... The fact that we don't have pellagra does not mean we are getting enough niacin to confer resistance to cancer." About 20 mg per day of niacin will prevent pellagra in people who are not chronic pellagrins. The latter may require 25 times as much niacin to remain free of pellagra. Vitamin B-3 may increase the therapeutic efficacy of anti-cancer treatment. In mice, niacinamide increased the toxicity of irradiation against tumors. The combination of normobaric carbogen with nicotinamide could be an effective method of enhancing tumor radiosensitivity in clinical radiotherapy where hypoxia limits the outcome of treatment. Chaplin, Horsman and Aoki16 found that nicotinamide was the best drug for increasing radiosensitivity compared to a series of analogues. The vitamin worked because it enhanced blood flow to the tumor. Nicotinamide also enhanced the effect of chemotherapy. They suggested that niacin may offer some cardioprotection during long-term adriamycin chemotherapy. Further evidence that vitamin B-3 is involved in cancer is the report by Nakagawa, Miyazaki, Okui, Kato, Moriyama and Fujimura [17] that in animals there is a direct relationship between the activity of nicotinamide methyl transferase and the presence of cancer. Measuring the amount of N-methyl nicotinamide was used to measure the activity of the enzyme. In other words, in animals with cancer there is increased destruction of nicotinamide, thus making less available for the pyridine nucleotide cycle. This finding applied to all tumors except the solid tumors, Lewis lung carcinoma and melanoma B-16. Gerson [18] treated a series of cancer patients with special diets and with some nutrients including niacin 50 mg 8 to 10 times per day, dicalcium phosphate with vitamin D, vitamins A and D, and liver injections. He found that all the cancer cases were benefited in that they became healthier and in many cases the tumors regressed. In a subsequent report Gerson elaborated on his diet. He now emphasized a high potassium over sodium diet, ascorbic acid, niacin, brewers yeast and lugols iodine. Right after the war there was no ready supply of vitamins as there is today. I would consider the use of these nutrients in combination very original and enterprising. Dr. Gerson was the first physician to emphasize the use of multivitamins and some multiminerals. More details are in Hoffer. [19] Additional evidence that vitamin B-3 is therapeutic for cancer arises from the National Coronary Study, Canner. [2] 5. Concentration Camp Survivors In 1960 I planned to study the effect of nicotinic acid on a large number of aging people living in a sheltered home. A new one had been built. I approached the director of this home, Mr. George Porteous. I arranged to meet him and told him what I would like to do and why. I gave him an outline of its properties, its side effects and why I thought it might be helpful. Mr. Porteous agreed and we started this investigation. A short while after my first contact Mr. Porteous came to my office at University Hospital. He wanted to take nicotinic acid himself, he told me, so that he could discuss the reaction more intelligently with people living in his institution. He wanted to know if it would be safe to do so. That fall he came again to talk to me and this time he said he wanted to tell me what had happened to him. Then I discovered he had been with the Canadian troops who had sailed to Hong Kong in 1940, had been promptly captured by the Japanese and had survived 44 months in one of their notorious prisoner of war camps. Twenty-five percent of the Canadian soldiers died in these camps. They suffered from severe malnutrition from starvation and nutrient deficiency. They suffered from beri beri, pellagra, scurvy, infectious diseases, and brutality from the guards. Porteous, a physical education instructor, had been fit weighing about 190 pounds when he got there. When he returned home he weighed only 2/3rds of that. On the way home in a hospital ship the soldiers were fed and given extra vitamins in the form of rice polishings. There were few vitamins available then in tablets or capsules. He seemingly recovered but had remained very ill. He suffered from both psychological and physical symptoms. He was anxious, fearful and slightly paranoid. Thus, he could never be comfortable sitting in a room unless he sat facing the door. This must have arisen from the fear of the guards. Physically he had severe arthritis. He could not raise his arms above his shoulders. He suffered from heat and cold sensitivity. In the morning he needed his wife's help in getting out of bed and to get started for the day. He had severe insomina. For this he was given barbiturates in the evening and to help awaken him in the morning, he was given amphetamines. Later I read the growing literature on the Hong Kong veterans and there is no doubt they were severely and permanently damaged. They suffered from a high death rate due to heart disease, crippling arthritis, blindness and a host of other conditions. Having outlined his background he then told me that two weeks after he started to take nicotinic acid, 1 gram after each meal, he was normal. He was able to raise his arms to their full extension, and he was free of all the symptoms which had plagued him for so long. When I began to prepare my report [20] I obtained his Veterans Administration Chart. It came to me in two cardboard boxes and weighed over ten pounds, but over 95% of it was accumulated before he started on the vitamin. For the ten years after he started on the vitamin there was very little additional material. One could judge the efficacy of the vitamin by weighing the chart paper before and after he started on it. Porteous remained well as long as he stayed on the vitamin until his death when he was Lieutenant Governor of Saskatchewan. In 1962, after having been well for two years, he went on a holiday to the mountains with his son and he forgot to take his nicotinic acid with him. By the time he returned home almost the entire symptomatology had returned. Porteous was enthusiastic about nicotinic acid and began to tell all his friends about it. He told his doctor. His doctor cautioned him that he might damage his liver. Porteous replied that if it meant he could stay as well as he was until he died from a liver ailment he would still not go off it. His doctor became an enthusiast as well and within a few years had started over 300 of his patients on the vitamin. He never saw any examples of liver disease from nicotinic acid. I have treated over 20 prisoners from Japanese camps and from European concentration camps since then with equally good results. I estimated that one year in these camps was equivalent to 4 years of aging, i.e. four years in camp would age a prisoner the equivalent of 16 years of normal living. George Porteous wanted every prisoner of war from the eastern camps treated as he had been. He was not successful in persuading the Government of Canada that nicotinic acid would be very helpful so he turned to fellow prisoners, both in Canada (Hong Kong Veterans) and to American Ex-Prisoners of War. These American veterans suffered just as much as had the Canadian soldiers since they were treated in exactly the same abysmal way. The ones who started on the vitamin showed the same response. Recently one of these soldiers, a retired officer, wrote to me after being on nicotinic acid 20 years that he felt great, owed it to the vitamin and that when his arteries were examined during a simple operation they were completely normal. He wrote, "About two years ago, I was hit, was bleeding down the neck. The MDs took the opportunity to repair me. They said the arteries under the ears look like they had never been used." There is an important lesson from the experiences of these veterans and their response to megadoses of nicotinic acid. This is that every human exposed to severe stress and malnutrition for a long enough period of time will develop a permanent need for large amounts of this vitamin and perhaps for several others. This is happening on a large scale in Africa where the combination of starvation, malnutrition and brutality is reproducing the conditions suffered by the veterans. Those who survive will be permanently damaged biochemically, and will remain a burden to themselves and to the community where they live. Will society have the good sense to help them recover by making this vitamin available to them in optimum doses? Doses The optimum dose range is not as wide as it is for ascorbic acid, but it is wide enough to require different recommendations for different classes of diseases. As is always the case with nutrients, each individual must determine their own optimum level. With nicotinic acid this is done by increasing the dose until the flush (vasodilation) is gone, or is so slight it is not a problem. One can start with as low a dose as 100 mg taken three times each day after meals and gradually increase it. I usually start with 500 mg each dose and often will start with 1 gram per dose especially for cases of arthritis, for schizophrenics, for alcoholics and for a few elderly patients. However, with elderly patients it is better to start small and work it up slowly. No person should be given nicotinic acid without explaining to them that they will have a flush which will vary in intensity from none to very severe. If this is explained carefully, and if they are told that in time the flush will not be a problem, they will not mind. The flush may remain too intense for a few patients and the nicotinic acid may have to be replaced by a slow release preparation or by some of the esters, for example, inositol niacinate. The latter is a very good preparation with very little flush and most find it very acceptable even when they were not able to accept the nicotinic acid itself. It is rather expensive but with quantity production the price might come down. The flush starts in the forehead with a warning tingle. Then it intensifies. The rate of the development of the flush depends upon so many factors it is impossible to predict what course it will follow. The following factors decrease the intensity of the flush: a cold meal, taking it after a meal, taking aspirin before, using an antihistamine in advance. The following factors make the flush more intense: a hot meal, a hot drink, an empty stomach, chewing the tablets and the rate at which the tablets break down in liquid. From the forehead and face the flush travels down the rest of the body, usually stopping somewhere in the chest but may extend to the toes. With continued use the flush gradually recedes and eventually may be only a tingling sensation in the forehead. If the person stops taking the vitamin for a day or more the sequence of flushing will be re-experienced. Some people never do flush and a few only begin to flush after several years of taking the vitamin. With nicotinamide there should be no flushing but I have found that about 2% will flush. This may be due to rapid conversion of the nicotinamide to nicotinic acid in the body. When the dose is too high for both forms of the vitamin the patients will suffer from nausea at first, and then if the dose is not reduced it will lead to vomiting. These side effects may be used to determine what is the optimum dose. When they do occur the dose is reduced until it is just below the nausea level. With children the first indication may be loss of appetite. If this does occur the vitamin must be stopped for a few days and then may be resumed at a lower level. Very few can take more than 6 grams per day of the nicotinamide. With nicotinic acid it is possible to go much higher. Many schizophrenics have taken up to 30 grams per day with no difficulty. The dose will alter over time and if on a dose where there were no problems, they may develop in time. Usually this indicates that the patient is getting better and does not need as much. I have divided all patients who might benefit from vitamin B-3 into the following categories. Category 1. These are people who are well or nearly well, and have no obvious disease. They are interested in maintaining their good health or in improving it. They may be under increased stress. The optimum dose range varies between 0.5 to 3 grams daily. The same doses apply to nicotinamide. Category 2. Everyone under physiological stress, such as pregnancy and lactation, suffering from acute illness such as the common cold or flu, or other diseases that do not threaten death. All the psychiatric syndromes are included in this group including the schizophrenias and the senile states. It also includes the very large group of people with high blood cholesterol levels or low HDL when it is desired to restore these blood values to normal. The dose range is 1 gram to 10 grams daily. For nicotinamide the range is 1 1/2 g to 6 g. Nicotinamide does not affect cholesterol levels. Side Effects Here are Dr. John Marks' conclusions. [21] "A tingling or flushing sensation in the skin after relatively large doses (in excess of 75 mg) of nicotinic acid is a rather common phenomenon. It is the result of dilation of the blood vessels that is one of the natural actions of nicotinic acid and one for which it is used therapeutically. Whether this should therefore be regarded as a true adverse reaction is a moot point. The reaction clears regularly after about 20 minutes and is not harmful to the individual. It is very rare for this reaction to occur at less than three times the RDA, even in very sensitive individuals. In most people much larger quantities are required. The related substance nicotinamide only very rarely produces this reaction and in consequence this is the form generally used for vitamin supplementation. "Doses of 200 mg to 10 g daily of the acid have been used therapeutically to lower blood cholesterol levels under medical control for periods of up to 10 years or more and though some reactions have occurred at these very high dosages, they have rapidly responded to cessation of therapy, and have often cleared even when therapy has been continued. "In isolated cases, transient liver disorders, rashes, dry skin and excessive pigmentation have been seen. The tolerance to glucose has been reduced in diabetics and patients with peptic ulcers have experienced increased pain. No serious reaction have been reported however even in these high doses. The available evidence suggests that 10 times the RDA is safe (about 100 mg)." Dr. Marks is cautious about recommending that doses of 100 mg are safe. In my opinion, based upon 40 years of experience with this vitamin the dose ranges I have recommended above are safe. However with the higher doses medical supervision is necessary. Jaundice is very rare. Fewer that ten cases have been reported in the medical literature. I have seen none in ten years. When jaundice dose occur it is usually an obstructive type and clears when the vitamin is discontinued. I have been able to get schizophrenic patients back on nicotinic acid after the jaundice cleared and it did not recur. Four serious cases have been reported, all involving a sustained release preparation. Mullin, Greenson & Mitchell (1989) [22] reported that a 44 year-old man was treated with crystalline nicotinic acid, 6 grams daily, and after 16 months was normal. He then began to take a sustained-release preparation, same dose. Within three days he developed nausea, vomiting, abdominal pain, dark urine. He had severe hepatic failure and required a liver transplant. Henkin, Johnson & Segrest found three patients who developed hepatitis with sustained release nicotinic acid. When this was replaced with crystalline nicotinic acid there was no recurrent liver damage. [23] Since jaundice in people who have not been taking nicotinic acid is fairly common it is possible there is a random association. The liver function tests may indicate there is a problem when in fact there is not. Nicotinic acid should be stopped for five days before the liver function tests are given. One patient who had no problem with nicotinic acid for lowering cholesterol switched to the slow release preparations and became ill. When he resumed the original nicotinic acid he was well again with no further evidence of liver dysfunction. I have not seen any cases reported anywhere else. I have described much more fully the side effects of this vitamin elsewhere. [24] Inositol hexaniacinate is an ester of inositol and nicotinic acid. Each inositol molecule contains six nicotinic acid molecules. This ester is broken down slowly in the body. It is as effective as nicotinic acid and is almost free of side effects. There is very little flushing, gastrointestinal distress and other uncommon side effects. Inositol, considered one of the lesser important B vitamins, does have a function in the body as a messenger molecule and may add something to the therapeutic properties of the nicotinic acid. Conclusion Vitamin B-3 is a very effective nutrient in treating a large number of psychiatric and medical diseases but its beneficial effect is enhanced when the rest of the orthomolecular program is included. The combination of vitamin B-3 and the antioxidant nutrients is a great anti-stress program. Reprinted with the permission of the author: Abram Hoffer, M.D., Ph.D. Suite 3 - 2727 Quadra St Victoria, British Columbia V8T 4E5 Canada References 1. Horwitt MK: Modern Nutrition in Health and Disease. Fifth Ed. RS Goodhart and ME Shils. Lea & Febiger, Phil. 1974. 2. Canner PL, Berge KG, Wenger NK, Stamler J, Friedman L, Prineas RJ & Freidewald W: Fifteen year mortality Coronary Drug Project; patients long term benefit with niacin. American Coll Cardiology 8:1245-1255, 1986. 3. Altschul R, Hoffer A & Stephen JD: Influence of Nicotinic Acid on Serum Cholesterol in Man. Arch Biochem Biophys 54:558-559, 1955. 4. Hoffer A: The Schizophrenia, Stress and Adrenochrome Hypothesis. In Press, 1995. 5. Hoffer A: Orthomolecular Medicine for Physicians. Keats Pub, New Canaan, CT, 1989. 6. Hoffer A: The treatment of schizophrenia. In Press 1995. 7. Hoffer A: The Development of Orthomolecular Medicine. In Press, 1995. 8. Hoffer A: Niacin Therapy in Psychiatry. C. C. Thomas, Springfield, IL, 1962. Hoffer A & Osmond H: New Hope For Alcoholics, University Books, New York, 1966. Written by Fannie Kahan. Hoffer A & Walker M: Nutrients to Age Without Senility. Keats Pub Inc, New Canaan, CT, 1980. Hoffer A & Walker M: Smart Nutrients. A Guide to Nutrients That Can Prevent and Reverse Senility. Avery Publishing Group, Garden City Park, New York, 1994. 9. Agnew N & Hoffer A: Nicotinic Acid Modified Lysergic Acid Diethylamide Psychosis. J Ment Science 101:12-27, 1955. 10. Ivanova RA, Milstein GT, Smirnova LS & Fantchenko ND: The Influence of Nicotinic Acid on an Experimental Psychosis Produced by LSD 25. Journal of Neuropathology and Psychiatry of CC Korsakoff 64:1172-1176, 1964. In Russian. Translated by Dr. T.E. Weckowicz. 11. Wilson B: The Vitamin B-3 Therapy: The First Communication to A.A.'s Physicians and A Second Communication to A.A.'s Physicians, 1967 and 1968. 12. Smith RF: A five year field trial of massive nicotinic acid therapy of alcoholics in Michigan. Journal of Orthomolecular Psychiatry 3:327-331, 1974. Smith RF: Status report concerning the use of megadose nicotinic acid in alcoholics. Journal of Orthomolecular Psychiatry 7:52-55, 1978. 13. Kaufman W: Common Forms of Niacinamide Deficiency Disease: Aniacin Amidosis. Yale University Press, New Haven, CT, 1943. Kaufman W: The Common Form of Joint Dysfunction: Its Incidence and Treatment. E.L. Hildreth and Co., Brattelboro, VT, 1949. 14. Hoffer A: Orthomolecular Medicine For Physicians, Keats Pub, New Canaan, CT, 1989. 15. Jacobson M & Jacobson E: Niacin, nutrition, ADP-ribosylation and cancer. The 8th International Symposium on ADP- Ribosylation, Texas College of Osteopathic Medicine, Fort Worth, TX, 1987. Titus K: Scientists link niacin and cancer prevention. The D.O. 28:93-97, 1987. Hostetler D: Jacobsons put broad strokes in the niacin/cancer picture. The D.O. 28:103-104, 1987. 16. Chaplin DJ, Horsman MP & Aoki DS: Nicotinamide, Fluosol DA and Carbogen: a strategy to reoxygenate acutely and chronically hypoxic cells in vivo. British Journal of Cancer 63:109-113, 1990. 17. Nakagawa K, Miyazaka M, Okui K, Kato N, Moriyama Y & Fujimura S: N1-methylnicotinamide level in the blood after nicotinamide loading as further evidence for malignant tumor burden. Jap. J. Cancer Research 82:277-1283, 1991. 18. Gerson M: Dietary considerations in malignant neoplastic disease. A prelimary report. The Review of Gastroenterology 12:419-425, 1945. Gerson M: Effects of a combined dietary regime on patients with malignant tumors. Experimental Medicine and Surgery 7:299-317, 1949. 19. Hoffer A: Orthomolecular Oncology. In, Adjuvant Nutrition in Cancer Treatment, Ed. P. Quillin & R. M. Williams. 1992 Symposium Proceedings, Sponsored by Cancer Treatment Research Foundation and American College of Nutrition. Cancer Treatment Research Foundation, 3455 Salt Creek Lane, Suite 200, Arlington Heights, IL 60005-1090, 331-362, 1994. 20. Hoffer A: Hong Kong Veterans Study. J Orthomolecular Psychiatry 3:34-36, 1974. 21. Marks J: Vitamin Safety. Vitamin Information Status Paper, F. Hoffman La Roche & Co., Basle, 1989. 22. Mullin GE, Greenson JK & Mitchell MC: Fulminant hepatic failure after ingestion of sustained-release nicotinic acid. Ann Internal Medicine 111:253-255, 1989. 23. Henkin Y, Johnson KC & Segrest JP: Rechallenge with crystalline niacin after drug-induced hepatitis from sustained-release niacin. J. American Medical Assn. 264:241-243, 1990. 24. Hoffer A: Niacin Therapy in Psychiatry. C. C. Thomas, Springfield, IL, 1962. Hoffer A: Safety, Side Effects and Relative Lack of Toxicity of Nicotinic acid and Nicotinamide. Schizophrenia 1:78-87, 1969. Hoffer A: Vitamin B-3 (Niacin) Update. New Roles For a Key Nutrient in Diabetes, Cancer, Heart Disease and Other Major Health Problems. Keats Pub, Inc., New Canaan, CT, 1990. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5641. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: State liquor agency mentioned in Doctor Bob''s Nightmare From: Glenn F. Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/18/2009 2:39:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In message #5631 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/5631 there are two key paragraphs in the newspaper article which is cited there from the June 18, 1902 New York Times: "The Selectmen of each town appoint a town agent for the dispensing of liquors upon prescription, and most of these agents, who take half the profits, vend vile liquor and break the law by handing it out to any citizen whom they know as a neighbor, be he a drunkard or not, without the formality of asking to see his prescription." "'Blind pigs' abound, and in the large towns outnumber any other single class of places of business. Bogus drug stores with barrooms in the rear are a notable feature of the appointments of these towns and cities. Drinking, therefore, goes on in Vermont as if there were no law against it; its extent is augmented by the secrecy and risk attached to it, but little or none of the liquor sold is fit to drink, and every drink purchased is a toast to disorder and a violation of law." It appears to me that the agents at the state liquor agencies whom Dr. Bob was referring to, were only allowed to dispense alcoholic beverages to people who had a doctor's prescription for it. When I was a child, there were still country doctors who would tell people with heart conditions to drink a sip of whiskey every once in a while over the course of the day, to "calm their nerves" and "help their hearts." There were parts of India during the 1960's where alcoholic beverages were illegal unless you had a certificate from the physician certifying that you were an alcoholic! A friend from India said that there were a large number of people back home who had talked a friendly physician into diagnosing them as alcoholics, even though they weren't. Tommy H. has found a prescription for whiskey on eBay, a prescription written by a physician, dated July 31, 1928, written for a woman in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania: http://www.auctiva.com/hostedimages/showimage.aspx?gid=765521&image=25187733 7&im\ ages=251877337,251877379,251877417&formats=0,0,0&format=0 [8] So it sounds like you had to have a doctor's prescription for the alcohol in Vermont at that period -- OR -- and this "or" was the operant word -- have a friendly local Vermont liquor agent who would wink his eye and write down on his books that you were an alcoholic who was starting to go into the DT's, so you could get a pint of whiskey from him. Are there any New England historians who know whether this guess on my part might be correct? Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "aadavidi" wrote: > > In "DOCTOR BOB'S NIGHTMARE" is the following > statement (Big Book page 171): > > "No beer or liquor was sold in the neighborhood, except at the State liquor agency where perhaps one might procure a pint if he could convince the agent that he really needed it. Without this proof the expectant purchaser would be forced to depart empty handed with none of what I later came to believe was the great panacea for all human ills. Men who had liquor shipped in from Boston or New York by express were looked upon with great distrust and disfavor by most of the good townspeople." > > Can anyone offer a clear description of the function of the Vermont State liquor agency in the late 1800's and why a person couldn't purchase all he or she wanted? > > [Dr. Bob was born August 8, 1879 in St. Johnsbury, Vermont, where he was raised. He graduated from Dartmouth College in Hanover, New Hampshire, in 1902.] > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5642. . . . . . . . . . . . Book signed by Dr Bob and Bill W From: kentedavis@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/19/2009 9:01:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have heard of a 12th printing of the first edition that was signed by both Dr Bob (his whole name) and Bill Wilson (his whole name). I was wondering if it was a one of a kind. There were not that many times that Bill and Bob were together with a book to sign, especially signing their whole names. Could this have been signed at the 1950 International Convention in 1950? This book was also signed by Lois and Father Pfau. Were there other times that Bill and Bob were together that they might have signed a book? Does anyone know of other occasions that when Bill and Bob were together after the book was published in 1939, other than the International Convention in 1950? Has anyone seen other books that were signed by both Bill and Bob? Kent D. 8/8/88 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5643. . . . . . . . . . . . Red Bank, New Jersey, AA group From: Stephen Aberle . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/19/2009 3:38:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I am trying to trace the founding (or founders) of the Red Bank Monday night group in Monmouth County, New Jersey. I had thought incorrectly that we were the 2nd oldest group in New Jersey -- we will celebrate the group's 68th anniversary in August. That implies a founding date of August 1941. But I have copies of older meeting books from Dec 1941 and Sept 1942, and Red Bank is not listed. I know AA in NJ started at the 1st meeting in Montclair on May 14th, 1939 and then went to South Orange at the home of Herb Debevoise, continuing what had been started in Montclair. Some of the earliest AA members in Red Bank include Bart Grimsley, Allen Gallagher, and Millie B. Any and all help appreciated! ... Thanx IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5644. . . . . . . . . . . . Pathways to abstinence: positive impact of A.A. From: loranarcher . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/21/2009 12:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have posted the second Knol of my analysis of 1992 Americans, diagnosed as alcohol abuse/dependence, 1) who never attended AA, 2) AA drop outs and 3) AA continued. This analysis is of abstinence outcome. The Knol is PATHWAYS TO ABSTINENCE: IMPACT OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS http://knol.google.com/k/loran-archer/pathways-to-abstinence-impact-of/33nxp ux3i\ mfog/6 [9] Key findings were: -The results of the present study support the efficacy of the fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous to promote abstinence -In 1992 Americans with alcohol use disorders who continued to attend AA were more likely to achieve abstinence (64%) than those who dropped out of AA (37%) or those who never attended AA (16%) -Abstinence recovery status varies as a function of increasing age and level of severity of alcohol symptoms. -The findings suggest that a substantial portion of the "AA drop outs" attain sobriety or abstinence after a period of AA membership and maintain their abstinence without AA -The unmet need for AA referral is concentrated in the younger age groups, 35% in the 18-29 years group and 30% in the 30-39 years age group - - - - From the moderator Important data from one of our best American alcoholism researchers. Note especially: 64% of those who continue in A.A. continue to stay sober. Of those who attend A.A. for a while and get sober there, but then stop attending meetings. only 37% remain sober. A.A. is not the only way to get sober and stay sober, but only 16% of those who never attended A.A. get sober and stay sober (these people presumbably do that by going to church instead, by act of sheer will power, or whatever). So what is the best way of getting sober, if you are an alcoholic? Going to A.A. meetings. What is the best way to maximize your chances of staying sober, if you got sober in A.A.? Continuing to go to A.A. meetings. Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5645. . . . . . . . . . . . DR Silkworth From: katiebartlett79 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/21/2009 11:34:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi everyone, Katie from Big Book Study: The Way Out Can anyone tell me why Dr. Silkworth become intrested in the alcohol field? Many thanks. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5646. . . . . . . . . . . . A.A.''s BB Celebrates 70 Years From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/22/2009 8:18:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A.A.'s 'Big Book' celebrates 70 years Printed in 58 languages, volume has been credited with saving lives of millions of people worldwide By Jim Carney (Akron Beacon Journal staff writer) Jim Carney can be reached at 330-996-3576 or jcarney@thebeaconjournal.com. Find this article at: http://www.ohio.com/news/43240782.html Published on Sunday, Apr 19, 2009 Gail L.'s hands rest on the old red book on a table in front of her. The book, she tells you, saved her life and gave her "a life worth saving." It is "God's story of his love for the alcoholic," she says. Seven decades ago this month, Alcoholics Anonymous, also called the Big Book, was published. For 70 years it has helped millions of people worldwide support each other while protecting their identity — thus the avoidance of last names. Sometime this year, it is expected that the 30 millionth copy will be sold. And as Gail, archivist at the Akron Alcoholics Anonymous office, sits over a first edition of the book known and cherished by recovering people since its publication in April 1939, she talks of the power of its words. "It is a design for living that really works," said Gail, 60, sober for 31 years and archivist in Akron since 1983. Alcoholics Anonymous was founded in Akron on June 10, 1935. Next year will be the organization's 75th anniversary. Every year in June, Akron hosts Founders Day and more than 12,000 people from around the world converge to remember the founding of the A.A. movement. Founders Day events this year are June 12-14. While A.A. does not keep formal membership lists, the group estimates there are nearly 2 million members worldwide who gather in nearly 115,000 groups, including about 1.2 million members in the United States who meet in nearly 54,000 groups. The first-edition book, one of 4,800 first printings, is kept in a safe at A.A.'s office at 775 N. Main St. The rare copy was signed June 10, 1948, by A.A. co-founders Dr. Robert Smith of Akron and New York stockbroker Bill Wilson. An Akron member donated the book. Also kept in the safe is Dr. Bob's copy of the manuscript. The book has been printed in 58 languages, according to a spokeswoman at the A.A. General Services offices in New York City. Gail said the book is really a history text. She said Wilson wrote most of the first 164 pages, which are still in the most current edition. Included on those pages are the 12 steps that have become the basis of the A.A. program. Following the first 164 pages are individual stories, three-fifths of them Akron people who told of their ''strength, experience and hope'' and their recovery to sobriety through A.A., she said. Many of the 18 personal stories included in the first edition were written by a sober, former newspaper reporter named Jim, an A.A. publication said. He, along with Smith, sought out stories of local people with good sobriety records. The newspaperman's story was included as well in a chapter titled The News Hawk. The fourth edition, which came out in 2001, includes two stories of Akron people, Gail said. Gift from God The Rev. Samuel Ciccolini, executive director of Interval Brotherhood Home, a drug and alcohol treatment facility in Coventry Township, said the book, studied by those in recovery, is nothing short of a miracle. "To me, the Big Book is an inspiration of God," said Ciccolini, 66, known to many as Father Sam. IBH will celebrate its 40th anniversary in 2010. "You see its enduring, life-saving value and you know it had to be more than two recovering men that were that brilliant that put something together. It had to be in God's hands," he said. Ciccolini said he recalls two alcoholics coming to talk to his class when he was a student at Akron's St. Peter's School in the mid-1950s. The two recovering men each carried a copy of the Big Book, he said. Ciccolini recalls each man holding it up and saying, "This book saved our lives." Later, when he was a theology student, he said he read the book. "What it has done to save lives is immeasurable," Ciccolini said. The foreword to the first edition begins: "'We, of Alcoholics Anonymous, are more than one hundred men and women who have recovered from a seemingly hopeless state of mind and body. To show other alcoholics precisely how we have recovered is the main purpose of this book." The book originally sold for $3.50. It goes for $6 now and will increase to $8 on July 1. Akronite Scott D., 61, a member of A.A. for a dozen years, has taken part in a men's Big Book study group since then. He said the group meets once a week and goes over the first 164 pages, including the chapter Dr. Bob's Nightmare that tells Smith's story. "We read the book and discuss it," he said. Scott said a passage that "registers in my head is we have but a daily reprieve based on the maintenance of our spiritual condition." Gail said when she started going to A.A. meetings, she began reading right away. "I fell in love with the book," she said. Gail said that when the book was written, the Akron A.A. community pushed to call it The Way Out and the New York group thought it should be called simply Alcoholics Anonymous. The New York group won that argument. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5647. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr. Silkworth From: CloydG . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/21/2009 10:15:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Here is a link that may be helpful: http://aabibliography.com/historyofaa/silkworth/silkworth.htm Clyde, alcoholic ----- Original Message ----- From: katiebartlett79 Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] DR Silkworth Can anyone tell me why Dr. Silkworth become interested in the alcohol field? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5648. . . . . . . . . . . . Are reproduction Grapevines available? From: diazeztone . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/23/2009 2:35:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A lady wrote me from my website wanting a June 1940 Grapevine. Does anybody know where to obtain well-done reproductions?? I include her message here: Greetings from another AA in Kentucky .... You came up on Google. I'm looking for a 1949 Grapevine, June if possible, for yet another AA who is turning 60 this June, born in 1949. Please let me know if you have/know of any .... Thanks! Suzanne Warden suzanne.warden at gmail ld pierce aabibliography.com eztone at hotmail IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5649. . . . . . . . . . . . San Quentin: (1) inmate Ricardo and (2) Bill W.''s speech From: jaxena77 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/21/2009 6:54:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello, (1) I am looking for more background info on the San Quentin inmate Ricardo who worked with Warden Duffy to set up the prison group there. Apparently, Ricardo was interviewed by a San Francisco journalist in 1943, and the interview was published in the San Francisco Call-Bullentin. Does anyone have this interview? (2) I am also curious if there is a recording or transcription or description of the content of Bill Wilson's speech at San Quentin in the 40s. Thanks! Jackie IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5650. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr. Silkworth From: diazeztone . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/25/2009 12:21:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Kate, there is a biography of Silkworth you should seek out: Silkworth: The Little Doctor Who Loved Drunks, the Biography of William Duncan Silkworth, M.D. by Dale Mitchel available at Hazelden I was looking but I can't find my copy. I hope I did not lend it out. LD Pierce aabibliography.com --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "CloydG" wrote: > > Here is a link that may be helpful: > > http://aabibliography.com/historyofaa/silkworth/silkworth.htm > > Clyde, alcoholic > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: katiebartlett79 > Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] DR Silkworth > > Can anyone tell me why Dr. Silkworth become > interested in the alcohol field? > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5651. . . . . . . . . . . . Photos of the Akron (and Australian) AA oldtimer Jim Scott From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/26/2009 3:14:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: "Gordy" (gordy8 at gmail.com) Hi there, Gordy is my name ( Australian AA groups http://www.aa-oztralia.com/ ) I am wondering if any of you have any pics of Jim Scott, he was an Australian and had a fair bit to do with the editing of the AA Big Book. < From GFC, the moderator: this is the Jim < Scott whose story was in the 1st edit. of < the BB as "Traveler, Editor, Scholar," later < revised and called "The News Hawk," see < http://www.barefootsworld.net/origbbstories.html#jims I am a sponsee of the AA Australia archival officer Ian J. and we have been looking for photos of Jim Scott, we have one grainy pic of him but nothing else. He is a very important link to our fellowship in Australia and any information we can get re Jim would be very gratefully received. I was hoping you folks might have or know of where we could get a good quality pic ... plus any info apart from the general run o' the mill stuff that is around about him. Thanks very much and keep up the good work God Bless Gordy dos 11th of April 1977 ... another grateful recovering alcoholic! AA OZ Unity Recovery website: http://www.aa-oztralia.com/ AA Southern Cross website: http://www.southerncrossaa.blogspot.com/ Australian AOIG website: http://home.vicnet.net.au/~aoig/ AA OZ Unity Recovery audio meeting room: http://chat.paltalk.com/g2/group/520563537/ AA Southern Cross meeting room: http://chat.paltalk.com/g2/group/1171665356/ IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5652. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Photos of the Akron (and Australian) AA oldtimer Jim Scott From: Jim Hoffman . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/26/2009 10:04:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi there, This is Maria , I just got a picture of Jim Scott from Ray G., former Dr. Bob's Home Archivist. Although this is pretty grainy I'd be happy to send it to see if it is any better than the one you have. It is 8 X 11. Looks to be of the same one that is on: http://www.barefootsworld.net/origbbstories.html#jims Contact me directly at (jhoffma6 at tampabay.rr.com) Maria ----- Original Message ----- From: Glenn Chesnut To: AAHistoryLovers group From: "Gordy" (gordy8 at gmail.com) Hi there, Gordy is my name ( Australian AA groups http://www.aa-oztralia.com/ ) I am wondering if any of you have any pics of Jim Scott, he was an Australian and had a fair bit to do with the editing of the AA Big Book. < From GFC, the moderator: this is the Jim < Scott whose story was in the 1st edit. of < the BB as "Traveler, Editor, Scholar," later < revised and called "The News Hawk," see < http://www.barefootsworld.net/origbbstories.html#jims I am a sponsee of the AA Australia archival officer Ian J. and we have been looking for photos of Jim Scott, we have one grainy pic of him but nothing else. He is a very important link to our fellowship in Australia and any information we can get re Jim would be very gratefully received. I was hoping you folks might have or know of where we could get a good quality pic ... plus any info apart from the general run o' the mill stuff that is around about him. Thanks very much and keep up the good work God Bless Gordy IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5653. . . . . . . . . . . . Whoopee parties From: tsirish1 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/26/2009 4:08:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does anyone KNOW the context in which Bill was referring to "plain ordinary whoopee parties"? I don't want guesses or theories; I already have them. I was looking for documented historical fact. Thanks in advance. Keep the Faith! BB Tim - - - - From the moderator: One of the most famous Walt Disney cartoon shorts of the 1930's was called "The Whoopee Party." A picture is worth a thousand words, go to YouTube and watch the cartoon: Mickey Cartoons — The Whoopee Party (Sept. 17, 1932) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1d7zxYsl67I Also look up whoopee party on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Whoopee_Party GFC IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5654. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Are reproduction Grapevines available? 1949 not 1940 From: diazeztone . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/25/2009 12:16:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII She needs June 1949 not 1940. Sorry my typo. LD Pierce - - - - Also from: "Keith" (kroloson at mindspring.com) The lady needs a JUNE 1949 year, Suzanne had a typo. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5655. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Are reproduction Grapevines available? From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/24/2009 6:02:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The A.A. Grapevine did not start publishing until June 1944 so it is unlikely that anyone can come up with one from 1940. I believe the memorial issues on the deaths of Dr. Bob and Bill W were reprinted and are still available at private sale. The originals are scarce and command a fairly high price. I am not aware of any other reproduced issues. The complete digital archive of Grapevines going back to June 1944 is available online: I find it very handy. Tommy H in Baton Rouge - - - - At 13:35 4/23/2009, diazeztone wrote: >A lady wrote me from my website wanting a June 1940 Grapevine. > >Does anybody know where to obtain well-done reproductions?? > >I include her message here: > >Greetings from another AA in Kentucky .... You came up on >Google. I'm looking for a 1949 Grapevine, June if possible, for yet >another AA who is turning 60 this June, born in 1949. Please let me >know if you have/know of any .... Thanks! > >Suzanne Warden >suzanne.warden at gmail > >ld pierce >aabibliography.com >eztone at hotmail IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5656. . . . . . . . . . . . Father Ralph Pfau From: nuevenueve@ymail.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/27/2009 2:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi, good day and 24 happy sobriety hours to all AA members, good day to non-AA members: Dears, I´ve been searching what were the causes Fr. Pfau´s literature was not approved or included by the conference. Were there religion causes? Did Father Pfau relapse and that´s why? Please show me light. Thank you pals. Hugo IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5657. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Are reproduction Grapevines available? From: James Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/27/2009 2:23:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: Tom wrote > I am not aware of any other reproduced issues. The GV sells reproductions of the June 1944 issue. They can be purchased on their web site. Jim IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5658. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Father Ralph Pfau From: bsdds@comcast.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/27/2009 4:05:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This is the sticky wicket (IMO) of "approved literature." It has nothing to do with content but where it is published and how distributed. Just like a great amt of literature isn't "approved" out of Hazelden . Yet there is the Little Red Book and 24 Hours a Day book. They are not approved. So widely used was the Little Red Book, that Dr. Bob used it to explain the the steps (before the 12/12) along with the Detroit Papers. There is a great source on the Hindsfoot under the site on the four original authors in AA, Bill being just one. A.A. Historical Materials Part 1 http://hindsfoot.org/archives.html - - - - "Approved Literature" is the source of revenue for AA and they go to great lengths to explain that other literature is not "outlawed." There are some areas tho, that use the term "approved literature" like any thing else is written by the evil sister of Cinderella. respectfully submitted bob s ----- Original Message ----- From: nuevenueve @ ymail .com To: AAHistoryLovers @ yahoogroups .com Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 2:17:28 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: [ AAHistoryLovers ] Father Ralph Pfau Hi, good day and 24 happy sobriety hours to all AA members, good day to non-AA members: Dears, I´ ve been searching what were the causes Fr. Pfau ´s literature was not approved or included by the conference. Were there religion causes? Did Father Pfau relapse and that´s why? Please show me light. Thank you pals. Hugo IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5659. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Father Ralph Pfau From: Joseph Nugent . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/27/2009 6:02:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII AA Conference approves only what it prints. They say the 3 most prolific writers were Richmond Walker (24 hours a day) Fr. Ralph Pfau (John Doe Golden Books) and Bill Wilson. Fr. Ralph didn't have a slip/relapse. Others may give you more/better information, Joe - - - - From: Tom White (tomwhite at cableone.net) Dear Hugo: I am moved to write at once before my own notions are contradicted by others who may write. It is my impression that Fr. Pfau's work has simply joined the other (and hugely more voluminous) writings that were so important in AA's earlier years, in coming under the AA Conference rubric: "not Conference-approved literature." I could cite, inter alia, the Little Red Book (containing much of Dr. Bob's early teachings), the 24-hour prayer book, and, indeed, even the Bible. My understanding is that this does not mean such writings are disapproved or unacceptable in any sense. It simply means, if I may put it this way, that they were not published by AA itself. By which I mean the publishing concern which AA World Services operates. I think AA HQ has tried at least somewhat to stem the trend toward negative branding of everything it does NOT publish, but I am not sure how successful it has been. Very best to you. Tom W, Odessa, Texas IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5660. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Father Ralph Pfau From: allan_gengler . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/27/2009 5:10:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There's no such thing as an "approved" aa reading list, though it is often misrepresented by members of AA. There are two AA publishing companies, one being the grapevine. For AA proper all literature and pamphlets must go through the appropriate committee, submitted to the general conference and get approval. The Big Book can't be changed without at least a 2/3 vote. GSO says---- "Conference-approved" — What It Means to You The term has no relation to material not published by G.S.O. It does not imply Conference disapproval of other material about A.A. A great deal of literature helpful to alcoholics is published by others, and A.A. does not try to tell any individual member what he or she may or may not read. BUT From the AA Guidelines from the Literature Committee: The spirit of the 1977 Conference action regarding group litera- ture displays be reaffirmed, and recommended the suggestion that A.A. groups be encouraged to display or sell only literature published and distributed by the General Service Office, the A.A. Grapevine and other A.A. entities. - - - - OTHER RELEVANT MATERIAL: AAHistoryLovers Message #4798 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/4798 History of the term Conference Approved The 1952 Conference Literature Committee reaffirmed the stand taken by the 1951 Conference as follows: "This conference has no desire to review, edit, or censor non-Foundation material. Our object is to provide, in the future, a means of distinguishing Foundation literature from that issued locally or by non-AA interests." - - - - Service Material From G.S.O. "Conference-approved -- What It Means" "The term 'Conference-approved' describes written or audiovisual material approved by the Conference for publication by G.S.O. This process assures that everything in such literature is in accord with A.A. principles. Conference-approved material always deals with the recovery program of Alcoholics Anonymous or with information about the A.A. Fellowship." "The term has no relation to material not published by G.S.O. It does not imply Conference disapproval of other material about A.A. A great deal of literature helpful to alcoholics is published by others, and A.A. does not try to tell any individual member what he or she may or may not read." There are things which are "A.A. Literature" even which are not conference-approved, such as pamphlets and booklets printed under the sponsorship of a local AA group or intergroup: "Central offices and intergroups do write and distribute pamphlets or booklets that are not Conference-approved. If such pieces meet the needs of the local membership, they may be legitimately classified as 'A.A. literature.' There is no conflict between A.A. World Services, Inc. (A.A.W.S. -- publishers of Conference-approved literature), and central offices or intergroups -- rather they complement each other. The Conference does not disapprove of such material." - - - - It was suggested by a conference advisory at one point (1972), that when a group or intergroup or AA conference puts literature out for sale, that they put the conference approved material in one location, and the non conference approved material on another table or bookshelf or part of the table. But that was just a recommendation, where AA groups are autonomous and can set their own guidelines however they wish. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5661. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Book signed by Dr Bob and Bill W From: schaberg43 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/28/2009 1:07:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I own a first edition, first printing (1939) of the Big Book that was signed by both Bill and Bob (and also, Jim Burwell). Although there is no date on Bob's inscription (signed "Dr. Bob Smith"), I was told that this comment and signature were done by Dr. Bob after the 1950 Cleveland Convention and just six weeks before Bob died on November 16, 1950. Bill's inscription is also signed in full ("Bill Wilson") and is dated - in Bill's typical fashion - 5/24/51 in Oklahoma City. (There is no date or place noted by Jim in his inscription.) Also in my collection is an 11th printing of the first edition (1947) with signatures by Bill Wilson (full name), Lois Wilson (ditto) and "Ann & Dr. Bob Smith." Bill has also signed the half-title page that follows "Bill Wilson." The brief inscription and the four (three?) signatures seem to be done in a very 'sloppy' and hurried manner - unlike most other signatures that I have seen, but they are genuine nonetheless. It's just that these particular signatures have something of an "on the run" feel to them. For the record, Bill signed literally thousands of books over the years. Bob was not only around much less time than Bill, he was also more of a 'homebody' compared to Bill and a much humbler, gentler soul than Bill. Inscribed copies by Dr. Bob are therefore considerably scarcer and what could easily be called "rare" compared to those left by Bill. Finally, it is clear that there was not strict need for Bill and Bob to be in the same place at the same time to end up with side-by-side inscriptions in a book. AA's were (and are) notoriously persistent when they want to accomplish something and - as is the case with my dual-inscribed 1st, 1st - not hindered by time and distance. I'm sure that is not the only instance where someone had a copy signed by just one of the co-founders and traveled to see the other one for the expressed purpose of obtaining their signature. Over and above that, Bill and Bob frequently visited each other in either New York or Ohio throughout the early years of AA - although I do not know of anyone who has taken the time and trouble to document these face-to-face meetings. (Now... there's a nice project for someone!) Best, Old Bill --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, kentedavis@... wrote: > > I have heard of a 12th printing of the first > edition that was signed by both Dr Bob (his > whole name) and Bill Wilson (his whole name). > I was wondering if it was a one of a kind. > There were not that many times that Bill and > Bob were together with a book to sign, > especially signing their whole names. > > Could this have been signed at the 1950 > International Convention in 1950? This book > was also signed by Lois and Father Pfau. > > Were there other times that Bill and Bob were > together that they might have signed a book? > Does anyone know of other occasions that when > Bill and Bob were together after the book was > published in 1939, other than the International > Convention in 1950? > > Has anyone seen other books that were signed > by both Bill and Bob? > > Kent D. 8/8/88 > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5662. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Father Ralph Pfau From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/28/2009 5:21:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dear Hugo, To answer the actual questions you asked. Father Pfau never had any relapses. He died sober with 23 years of sobriety in 1967. Although he was Roman Catholic, his message spoke to all AA's. At least 60% of the AA's who came to his spiritual retreats were Protestants. There is nothing contrary to good AA teaching in the Golden Books. In fact they are one of the best things you could read if you wanted to know more about how to live good AA spirituality in your everyday life. It is good oldtime AA at its best. So why aren't Father Ralph Pfau's Golden Books "conference approved"? The reason is, simply, that the only books that are "conference approved" are books where the New York AA office pays for printing them and then gets the royalties from their sales. Richmond Walker offered Twenty Four Hours a Day (the second best selling AA book of all time) to the New York AA people back in the 1950's and they turned him down. Ed Webster offered The Little Red Book to them, and they turned him down too. The only books the New York AA office were publishing back then were books written by Bill W. All the other books written by other AA authors had to be self-published back in those days. The New York AA office would not lift a finger to help them get their books published. Richmond Walker originally printed his books at the county courthouse and distributed them himself from his home. Ed Webster and his friend Barry Collins called themselves the "Coll-Webb" publishing company, and printed and distributed the Little Red Books themselves. Father Ralph (and one of his nieces and the three nuns who assisted him at the Convent of the Good Shepherd) likewise printed and distributed the Golden Books themselves (they called themselves "the Society of Matt Talbot Guild"). Back in those very early days, unless you were Bill W., the only way an AA author could get an AA book published was to self-publish. Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) - - - - Message #5656 from (nuevenueve at ymail.com) Hi, good day and 24 happy sobriety hours to all AA members, good day to non-AA members: Dears, I've been searching what were the causes Fr. Pfau's literature was not approved or included by the conference. Were there religion causes? Did Father Pfau relapse and that's why? Please show me light. Thank you pals. Hugo IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5663. . . . . . . . . . . . First conference published books NOT by Bill W. From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/3/2009 11:04:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A message to me from Tom Hickcox raised the question, what were the first conference published books which were NOT written by Bill W? Bill Wilson died on 24 January 1971. I cannot think of any full length books which were printed by AAWS prior to Bill W's death, which were written by anyone other than him. But I may be leaving something obvious out, by oversight. My preliminary list of non-Bill W. books would include: **Came to Believe (New York: AAWS, 1973). **Living Sober (New York: AAWS, 1975, 1998). **Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers (New York: AAWS, 1980). **Pass It On: The Story of Bill Wilson (New York: AAWS, 1984). **Daily Reflections (New York: AAWS, 1990). I also include some of our past messages about the first two books on that list: ******************** Came to Believe (New York: AAWS, 1973). ******************** Message #2884: Excerpt from unpublished manuscript on AA History by Bob P., 1985. "Came to Believe," published in 1973, is a collection of stories by A.A. members who tell in their own words what the phrase "spiritual awakening" means to them. Five years previously, an A.A. member had pointed out the need, because many newcomers translate the word "spiritual" in A.A. as meaning "religious." The aim was to show the diversity of convictions implied in "God as we understood Him,".. With which Bill was in delighted agreement. Except for six pieces from the Grapevine the remainder of the contributions were written especially for the book in response to an appeal by G.S.O. and represent the broadest possible sampling of members from all parts of the U.S. and Canada and around the world. The first cover of "Came to Believe" was a photograph of a tender shoot in spring, peeping up through the snow..beautifully symbolic, but perhaps too subtle for the browser at the literature table. It was replaced by a simple dark blue title on an all white background, still low-key and unobtrusive. After 1985, it was given a bright red cover with gold stamping. ******************** Living Sober (New York: AAWS, 1975, 1998). ******************** Message #5162 Barry L.'s claim for royalties for Living Sober I have copies of some correspondence between Barry L. and the General Service Board that were in Dr. Bob's collection at Brown University. There is a letter from Barry to George Dorsey on March 7, 1982 (Cc: Robert Pearson). There is a reply to Barry from John Bragg on May 25, 1982 (Cc: Robert Pearson). Finally, there is a letter from Barry to Gordon Patrick, dated February 14, 1983. - - - - The first letter outline Barry's claim to royalties from the sale of Living Sober. The second letter basically says "you negotiated a deal for $4,000 in 1974 and you're not getting any more." The last letter concludes with Barry stating that he is left with no choice but to file a claim for $153,304.45 in retroactive royalties. Chris - - - - From: Mel B. Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2008 To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: Barry L. and Bill W's copy of the Big Book manuscript Hi Rick, I was pleased to read this additional information about Barry L., the manuscript, etc. If his heirs made a bundle out of the manuscript, it is probably poetic justice. I think Barry did feel he deserved more pay for what services he had rendered to AA World Services and Lois supported him in this effort. It failed, however, and Barry died without getting any additional bucks (at least to my knowledge). He was virtually a son to Lois and accompanied her or her trips. I took a photo of her greeting Jack Bailey in Akron in 1978, with Barry standing behind her. This is the only photo I have of Barry, and I wish another was available. Mel - - - - Message #3155 Hi All, I interviewed Barry L. by telephone and obtained the story about the homosexual black man who had contacted Barry about coming into AA. This is how it became included in "Pass It On." I think this happened in 1945. I don't recall any mention of how the man fared after being introduced to the fellowship. I had met Barry at G.S.O. in New York and considered him a good friend. We never discussed his being gay, but I do recall expressing condolences when his partner died. I also attended Marty Mann's memorial services at St. Bartholomew's Episcopal Church in New York City with Barry and a lesbian member who knew Marty. The service was conducted by the minister of the church and Yvelin G., who was an ordained Episcopal minister along with being Marty's close associate for many years at the National Council on Alcoholism. This service was about two months after Marty's passing. I had interviewed Marty earlier that year at her home in Easton, CT, where she also introduced me to her longtime partner, Priscilla Peck. Priscilla was then suffering from Alzheimer's but Marty was still taking care of her, and I had the feeling that they were a very devoted couple. I learned more about their relationship in the Browns' book and was also happy to hear that Priscilla was well taken care of after Marty died. It appeared to me that Lois W.'s best friends in the fellowship were Barry and Nell Wing (though Nell wasn't an alcoholic). Barry accompanied Lois on out-of-town speaking engagements and was otherwise very attentive to her. I believed that Barry was probably in her will, as was Nell, but he predeceased Lois. I was also familiar with Barry's efforts to obtain extra compensation for his work on "Living Sober." Lois reportedly endorsed this effort. I didn't feel he had any grounds for receiving additional pay, as he had taken on the project on a work-for-hire basis with no royalties specified. He used Bill W.'s royalties as a precedent, but I'm sure Bill negotiated the royalty agreement up front when he wrote "The Twelve and Twelve" plus "AA Comes of Age." His Big Book royalties were agreed upon earlier. I think Barry died before this matter was finally settled. Mel Barger - - - - Message #4756 Hi everyone, Audrey Borden here with a response to LD Pierce's post. Everything I learned about Barry Leach is recorded in the book "The History of Gay People in Alcoholics Anonymous: From the Beginning." A transcript of his wonderful talk at the 1985 Twin Cities Roundup, "The Gay Origins of AA's Third Tradition," appears in Chapter 2. Other topics include a comparison of treatments for alcoholism and homosexuality, the debate in AA over meetings for gay alcoholics, the development of gay meetings, interviews with pioneering lesbian and gay addiction pro- fessionals, the history of AA's pamphlet AA and the Gay/Lesbian Alcoholic, the story of Alcoholics Together (a parallel AA organization for gay alcoholics in southern California from 1968-1982), and many stories of recovery and wisdom from gay (and straight) AA's with long-term sobriety. Best, Audrey IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5664. . . . . . . . . . . . SV: Re: Father Ralph Pfau From: Bent Christensen . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/29/2009 3:04:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dear Glenn, dear group Is there any facts or indications, why the New York AA office turned down the offer from both Ed Webster and Richmond Walker? Best regards Bent Christensen Valmuevej 17 6000 Kolding Tlf. 23 84 54 26 www.pass-it-on.dk http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/StoreBog_studie/ Fra: Glenn Chesnut Emne: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Father Ralph Pfau Til: "AAHistoryLovers group" Dato: tirsdag 28. april 2009 23.21 Richmond Walker offered Twenty Four Hours a Day (the second best selling AA book of all time) to the New York AA people back in the 1950's and they turned him down. Ed Webster offered The Little Red Book to them, and they turned him down too. The only books the New York AA office were publishing back then were books written by Bill W. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5665. . . . . . . . . . . . Publishing the 24 Hour book From: Bruce C. . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/4/2009 12:20:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Why the 24 Hour book was not published by A.A. Hi All We have heard various reasons why A.A. never published the 24 Hour a Day Book, that is currently published by Hazelden but, here is the real story. This is from the Final Report: Fourth General Service Conference of A.A. 1954, page 20: "The Conference was asked to consider the offer of the publisher who wished to give to A.A. Publishing, Inc. publication rights to the booklet, 'Twenty-Four Hours a Day.' A two-page letter from the publisher, favoring this proposal and answering certain objections to the proposal, was read to the Conference. The letter noted that current net profit from sales of the booklet is about $5,300 annually.** Requests that A.A. Publishing, Inc. undertake publication of the booklet have been received from many areas, largely as a result of suggestions by the present publisher, it was reported. Comment by the Delegates indicated they felt it unwise to set a precedent in the case of this booklet and expressed fear that A.A. Publishing 'would be flooded with similar requests' if it did so. The Delegate from the State in which the booklet is published said it was the consensus of his group and of his area that the proposal not be approved. Following full discussion of the proposal, the Conference adopted a resolution that publication rights to 'Twenty-Four Hours a Day' not be accepted and further asked that the publisher be thanked for his offer." Bruce C. - - - - **FROM THE MODERATOR: Richmond Walker's papers, which are in one of the Florida AA archives, show that Rich took this profit every year and gave it to the Daytona Beach AA group, which in turn sent the entire sum to the New York office. As long as Rich and the Daytona Beach AA group were publishing the 24 Hour book (1948 to 1954), they never kept a penny of the profits from its sale for themselves. GFC IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5666. . . . . . . . . . . . Publishing the 24 Hour book and Little Red Book From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/4/2009 3:25:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Bent Christensen has asked, "Is there any facts or indications, why the New York AA office turned down the offer from both Ed Webster and Richmond Walker," to let the New York office take over publishing their books? - - - - (1) We remember how Bill W. had encountered such enormous difficulties in obtaining the money to publish the Big Book in 1939. In 1952 to 53, he met even more difficulties in obtaining the money to publish the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions. Finally, in desperation, he entered into a deal with Harper and Brothers, a commercial publisher, where two editions would be published, one for AA members, and the other a commercial version (for fifty cents more per copy). By later standards, this would probably have been regarded as a breach of the Traditions, but it was the only way Bill could figure out to raise the money to print his new book. See Pass It On, pages 355-6. On the other hand, the authors of the Twenty Four Hour book and the Little Red Book (together with the AA groups which had sponsored those two books, the Daytona Beach group in Florida and the Nicollet Group in Minneapolis), had apparently effortlessly been able to raise the money to publish those two books and keep them in print. The New York office only had the money to publish and promote ONE BOOK at that time. Should the manuscript to Bill W's Twelve and Twelve be tossed back in a file cabinet, and never receive publication, so the New York office could take over publishing Twenty Four Hours a Day, or the Little Red Book? There was a period, according to Ernest Kurtz, when more AA members had their own copy of the Twenty Four hour book than there were who had a copy of the Big Book. In my part of Indiana, it was the little black book that all the AA people carried around with them all day long, not the Big Book. And the Little Red Book was a direct competitor to the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, and was not only selling extremely well, but was far easier for beginners to read and understand. So both these books were already doing better than anything Bill W. had ever written. They most certainly did NOT need New York's help. Does anybody seriously think that the manuscript of the Twelve and Twelve should have been tossed in a file cabinet and not published, just to take over publishing some other book that was already doing well? (2) When Richmond Walker asked the New York office to take over publishing Twenty Four Hours a Day in 1953, the response was an almost immediate "no." See http://hindsfoot.org/RWfla3.html Not only did they not have the money in New York to take over printing it, they did not yet, at that point in 1953, know for sure that the just-published 12 and 12 was going to be successful. When Ed Webster and Barry Collins offered New York the Little Red Book, New York's response, naturally enough, was identical. New York was putting all of its money into first the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions (in 1953), next the second edition of the Big Book (in 1955), and finally Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age (in 1957). (3) And Bent, there here arose an even more important question: Why SHOULD the New York AA office be turned into a huge publishing house, with all the financial concerns and monetary investment which that would entail? The response by the Delegates to Richmond Walker made it clear that they most certainly did NOT see that as the proper role of the New York AA office: "Comment by the Delegates indicated they felt it unwise to set a precedent in the case of this booklet and expressed fear that A.A. Publishing 'would be flooded with similar requests' if it did so." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5667. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Is the silkworth.net site down? From: Jim M . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/5/2009 1:15:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Good day my AAHistoryLover friends! The problem is the doctors wrote me out of work for a year on two separate occasions. I was unable to continue working after July 24th 2007 and am using Bender And Bender to obtain Social Security. So, although the activation fee to get the http://silkworth.net/ site back online is quite small, I nevertheless do not have it at this point. It is frustrating to say the least. I do hope I am able to get it back online soon. Just haven't figured out how yet. Hope you are all doing well! Yours in service, Ever grateful, Jim M. silkworthdotnet@yahoo.com (silkworthdotnet at yahoo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5668. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Publishing the 24 Hour book From: momaria33772 . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/4/2009 5:51:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi All, Thanks to Bruce for his reply which brings up a related issue that I would like to address. The original question and some of the responses referred to the book being refused by the "New York AA Office". There may be some who do not understand that the decision was really made by the representatives of all the groups in the US and Canada. The "New York AA Office" followed the decision made by these representa- tives (Delegates). There seems to be a feeling by some that GSO runs things, often in opposition to the groups and members. I think it is our responsibility to make it clear that we are the them that makes these decisions. * * * * I'd like to share one other thought I have had every time anyone has brought up publishing of any materials like these. Would the people who love and use the 24 Hour book be prepared to have it changed at some future Delegate Conference based on some objection that someone in my home group had and got submitted to the Conference Agenda? For those who don't believe that could happen, I would point out that both the fourth edition versions of the Foreward and Dr. Bob's Nightmare have been changed based on submissions by members and groups in the US and Canada. I could easily see today's version of the 24 Hour Book being radically different from the one originally published. Jim H. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5669. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Publishing the 24 Hour book From: Archives Historie . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/5/2009 1:16:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From the Daytona Florida Archives, The moderator GFC is absolutely right on and correct. Not a penny was kept here in Daytona and was all past on to GSO. We have the papers to prove this fact also. So when you visit Daytona please come in and visit the archives display in our Intergroup office where you mary see these papers and much much more. Thank you. David in Daytona - - - - Subject: Publishing the 24 Hour book To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, May 4, 2009, 12:20 AM FROM THE MODERATOR: Richmond Walker's papers, which are in one of the Florida AA archives, show that Rich took this profit every year and gave it to the Daytona Beach AA group, which in turn sent the entire sum to the New York office. As long as Rich and the Daytona Beach AA group were publishing the 24 Hour book (1948 to 1954), they never kept a penny of the profits from its sale for themselves. GFC IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5670. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Publishing the 24 Hour book From: Charlie Parker . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/6/2009 1:38:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII What were the changes to Dr Bob's Nightmare and which foreword was changed?? Charlie Parker Ace Golf Netting 828 Wagon Trail Austin, TX 78758 Toll free 877-223-6387 -----Original Message----- From: momaria33772 Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 4:51 PM I'd like to share one other thought I have had every time anyone has brought up publishing of any materials like these. Would the people who love and use the 24 Hour book be prepared to have it changed at some future Delegate Conference based on some objection that someone in my home group had and got submitted to the Conference Agenda? For those who don't believe that could happen, I would point out that both the fourth edition versions of the Foreword and Dr. Bob's Nightmare have been changed based on submissions by members and groups in the US and Canada. I could easily see today's version of the 24 Hour Book being radically different from the one originally published. Jim H. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5671. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: the 24 Hour book and spirituality vs. religion From: Ben Humphreys . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/5/2009 7:27:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I always heard that the Conference turned it down (the 24 Hour Book) on the grounds it was too religious. Live and learn. Thanks for your explanation. We all used it when I came in and I still use it everyday. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5673. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: the 24 Hour book and spirituality vs. religion From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/6/2009 3:39:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Ben Humphreys (message 5671) said "I always heard that the Conference turned it down (the 24 Hour Book) on the grounds it was too religious." Yes, I have heard people say that too, but that was not so. In fact, the reason why the 24 Hour Book became so popular in AA so quickly, was because it provided a replacement for a book which some AA members DID regard as "too religious," namely, The Upper Room. From 1935 until the publication of the 24 Hour Book in 1948, the main meditational book used by AA people was this Southern Methodist publication called The Upper Room. And as noted, the reason why AA people all over the US and Canada began using the 24 Hour Book right away, was because they wanted a meditational book that was not filled with so much Christian religious phraseology. To them, the 24 Hour Book seemed perfect as a substitute for The Upper Room precisely because IT WASN'T VERY RELIGIOUS in the traditional Christian sense. No references in the 24 Hour Book to Jesus or requirement of belief in Christ, and hardly any scripture quotations. Richmond Walker, the AA member who wrote the 24 Hour Book, was sensitive to these issues. His father, Joseph Walker, had been one of the leading atheists in the United States (he wrote a book defending atheism, and was one of the signers of the original Humanist Manifesto). Rich himself, his son told me, attended the Unitarian Church: http://www.uua.org/aboutus/index.shtml "Unitarian Universalism is a liberal religion with Jewish-Christian roots. It has no creed. It affirms the worth of human beings, advocates freedom of belief and the search for advancing truth, and tries to provide a warm, open, supportive community for people who believe that ethical living is the supreme witness of religion." THE UPPER ROOM http://hindsfoot.org/uprm1.html "From 1935 to 1948, most A.A. members read The Upper Room every morning for their morning meditation. Although the Oxford Group had the greatest influence on the development of early A.A., this little paperback booklet may well have been the second greatest influence on early A.A. spirituality. This article gives selections from the readings in some of the issues of The Upper Room published in 1938 and 1939, along with commentary explaining some of the ideas which A.A. drew from this source: the understanding of character and character defects, happiness as an inside job, the Divine Light within, warnings against being too imprisoned by doctrines, dogmas and church creeds, the dangers of resentment, instructions about how to pray, entering the Divine Silence, learning to listen to God, opening the shutters of my mind to let in the Sunlight of the Spirit, taking life One Day at a Time, and above all, remembering that God is present with me at all times: 'Nearer is he than breathing, closer than hands or feet.'" See the Upper Room website at http://www.upperroom.org/ THE UPPER ROOM AND ROMAN CATHOLIC SPIRITUALITY The Upper Room is not only read and used by people from a number of different Protestant denominations, but many Roman Catholic families over the years have also kept copies of The Upper Room in their homes for their own private devotions. In fact, the Southern Methodists have always had strong links to the Roman Catholic tradition as well as the Anglo-Catholic tradition. So for example, as Fiona Dodd pointed out to me, the Upper Room website currently includes instructions on the spirituality of St. Ignatius Loyola (1491-1556), who was the spiritual master whom both Sister Ignatia and Father Ed Dowling looked to as their great spiritual guide: http://www.upperroom.org/methodx/thelife/prayermethods/ http://www.upperroom.org/methodx/thelife/prayermethods/ignatian.asp http://www.upperroom.org/methodx/thelife/prayermethods/examen.asp But this too is a very religious approach, making heavy use of traditional Christian language and imagery. Richmond Walker's Twenty-Four Hours a Day broke with that almost completely, and devised language and imagery which could be used by anyone who believed in a transcendent Higher Power and the need to practice love, unselfishness, honesty, and purity in our daily lives. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5674. . . . . . . . . . . . Correspondence between Bill W. and Fr. Pfau From: nuevenueve@ymail.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/6/2009 2:28:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello Group: I was reading part of Fr. Ralph Pfau's "The Golden book of Sanity" and remember Fr. Pfau wrote something approximately like this: >It is one of the AA glories that the individual makes his election in subjects of AA without waiting for the interference or criticizing from the part of his companions< referring to a letter to him from Bill W. The question is, is there a website/book/other in which one could find all the correspondence between Bill W. and Fr. Ralph Pfau? Thanks as always. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5675. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Correspondence between Bill W. and Fr. Pfau From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/6/2009 4:08:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In Message 5674, asked where we could find the correspondence between Bill W. and Fr. Ralph Pfau. I am glad you asked this question. When Amy Filiatreau was the New York AA Archivist, she very kindly located several of Bill W.'s letters referring to Ralph Pfau, letters referring to one particular question I had asked her about. Bill was unhappy with both Fr. Ralph and Lillian Roth because they had broken their anonymity in print (Fr. Ralph in his autobiography which he published in Look magazine in 1958 and Lillian Roth in her autobiography, I'll Cry Tomorrow, which came out in 1954. But I got the impression from Amy that there were a whole lot more letters in which Bill W. was either writing to Fr. Ralph or mentioning his name in a letter to someone else. Unfortunately, I have so far been unable to find out whether anyone kept Fr. Ralph's papers after his death. One of his nieces, who took care of a lot of things after his death, told me that she did not know where they had gone, or even if anyone had kept them at all. The Convent of the Good Shepherd in Indianapolis, where he was the Confessor, is no longer in existence, I have been told. If his papers still exist any place, it is possible that there might be copies of letters from him to Bill W. there. If anybody knows where Fr. Ralph's papers are now, or if anybody would like to go through the AA Archives in New York looking for references to Fr. Ralph in Bill W.'s correspondence, it would certainly be useful to AA historians. REFERENCES: See Father Ralph S. Pfau and Al Hirshberg, "A Priest's Own Story," Look, Vol. 22, No. 5 (March 4, 1958): 84-97; and "Out of the Shadows," Look, Vol. 22, No. 6 (March 18, 1958): 85-98. Lillian Roth, I'll Cry Tomorrow (New York: Frederick Fell, 1954). Lillian first joined A.A. in 1946. New York A.A. Archives: see especially letters from Bill to Dean B. (Indianapolis) on February 11, 1958; and Bill to George S. (Philadelphia) on June 2, 1958. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5676. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Publishing the 24 Hour book and Little Red Book From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/7/2009 9:10:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The statement below, regarding assumed difficulties in obtaining money in 1952 and 1953 to print the 12&12, is not consistent with its source reference to "Pass It On (pages 355-6):" ============================================== "(1) We remember how Bill W. had encountered such enormous difficulties in obtaining the money to publish the Big Book in 1939. In 1952 to 53, he met even more difficulties in obtaining the money to publish the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions. Finally, in desperation, he entered into a deal with Harper and Brothers, a commercial publisher, where two editions would be published, one for AA members, and the other a commercial version (for fifty cents more per copy). By later standards, this would probably have been regarded as a breach of the Traditions, but it was the only way Bill could figure out to raise the money to print his new book. See Pass It On, pages 355-6." ============================================== Reliable source reference show no such notion of difficulties in raising funds for publication of the 12&12 or of any other of Bill's works from the time of the establishment of the General Service Conference in 1951. In fact the record shows very much the opposite. Based on a 1951 Conference advisory action recommending that AA literature should have Conference approval, the Alcoholic Foundation Board formed a special Trustees’ committee on literature to recommend to the 1952 Conference literature items that should be retained and future literature items that would be needed. Bill W also reported to the 1952 Conference on the many literature projects he was engaged in. Bill's projects reported in the 1952 Conference final report were: (1) Up-dating the story section of the "Big Book" to provide a more truly representative cross-section of AA recovery stories; (2) A new series of anecdotal analyses of the Twelve Traditions; (3) A series of orderly, point-by-point essays on the Twelve Steps; (4) "A kind of a popular history of AA and its ideas of recovery, tradition and service"; (5) A book on the application of AA philosophy to the "total problem of living" and (6) A reference manual stating our total experience with the whole idea of service functions. The 1952 Conference unanimously approved the Board proposals and Bill's projects. For Bill, this resulted in publication of:(a) "The Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions" in 1953; (b) “The Third Legacy Manual” in 1955 and renamed “The AA Service Manual” in 1969; (c) The 2nd edition Big Book in 1955; (d) “AA Comes of Age” in 1957; (e) “The Twelve Concepts for World Service” in 1962; and (f) “The AA way of Life” in 1966 and later renamed to “As Bill Sees It” in 1975. In regards to the 12&12, "Pass It On" (pg 356) states that "The book was an immediate success." The 12&12 sold 29,567 copies in 1953 compared to Big Book sales of 23,296 copies. Both the 12&12 and "AA Comes of Age" were sold commercially through Harper & Brothers with the consent of the General Service Conference (Traditions notwithstanding). In Bob P's "Unofficial History of AA" it states that in 1952 "Bill asked to be released from routine duties in order to concentrate on writing: updating the story section of the Big Book and writing a new series of essays on the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions. The Literature Committee reported ten projects had been completed, and ten more were suggested by the Delegates. Volunteers couldn’t accomplish all this work, so the Conference approved employment of professional writers’ in AA (p 183)." I'd like to know what source documents give the impression of "difficulties in obtaining money." It doesn't seem to be historically accurate/factual. Cheers Arthur - - - - RESPONSE FROM GLENN C. Arthur, I cited Pass It On, pages 355-6. If the New York AA office was rolling in money, then why did they enter that commercial agreement with Harper and Brothers over the two editions of the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions? If they didn't need the money, and didn't HAVE to do it in order to get the Twelve and Twelve published at all, then that commercial profit- making deal doesn't look very cricket to me. Glenn -----Original Message----- From: Glenn Chesnut Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 2:25 PM To: AAHistoryLovers group Subject: Publishing the 24 Hour book and Little Red Book > In 1952 to 53, he met even more difficulties in > obtaining the money to publish the Twelve Steps > and Twelve Traditions. Finally, in desperation, > he entered into a deal with Harper and Brothers, > a commercial publisher, where two editions would > be published, one for AA members, and the other > a commercial version (for fifty cents more per > copy). By later standards, this would probably > have been regarded as a breach of the Traditions, > but it was the only way Bill could figure out > to raise the money to print his new book. > See Pass It On, pages 355-6. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5677. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: the 24 Hour book and spirituality vs. religion From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/7/2009 9:41:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In Bob P's "Non Approved AA History" manuscript he notes the following (pg 211) regarding the Twenty-Four Hours a Day book,: "The history of AA literature is also told in the history of what was not published. Several Conferences had to deal with the request that the Twenty-Four Hours A Day book be adopted as AA literature, since it was written by an AA member and was in widespread use in AA (It was copyrighted and published by Hazelden and hence was not available. Also, being written in specific religious language, it would be inappropriate.) ..." [Note: Bob P wrote this in the mid-to-late 1980s] The 1953, 1954 and 1972 Conferences faced the question of accepting publication rights on the “Twenty-Four Hours a Day” book written by AA member Richmond W. The 1953 Conference postponed the matter to allow review prior to the 1954 Conference with the recommendation to: "Ask the Delegates to weigh this question for submission to the 1954 Conference: Does the Conference feel it should depart from its purely textbook program by printing non-textbook literature such as the "24 Hour Book of meditation?" The final 1954 Conference report states the following: "The Conference was asked to consider the offer of the publisher who wished to give to AA Publishing, Inc. publication rights to the booklet, 'Twenty-Four Hours a Day.' A two-page letter from the publisher, favoring this proposal and answering certain objections to the proposal, was read to the Conference. The letter noted that current net profit from sales of the booklet is about $5,300 annually. Requests that AA Publishing, Inc. undertake publication of the booklet have been received from many areas, largely as the result of suggestions by the present publisher, it was reported. Comment by the Delegates indicated they felt it unwise to set a precedent in the case of this booklet and expressed fear that AA Publishing 'would be flooded with similar requests' if it did so. The Delegate from the State in which the booklet is published said it was the consensus of his group and of his area that the proposal not be approved. Following full discussion of the proposal, the Conference adopted a resolution that publication rights to 'Twenty-Four Hours a Day' not be accepted and further asked that the publisher be thanked for his offer." The 1972 Conference Literature Committee recommended that: "The 24-Hour Book not be confirmed as Conference-approved literature." Cheers Arthur - - - - RESPONSE FROM GLENN C. Bob P.'s account is confused. At the time of the 1953-54 discussion, the Twenty Four Hour book was NOT being published by Hazelden. It was being published by Richmond Walker himself under the sponsorship of the Daytona Beach AA Group. The reasons given for New York not taking over its publication at that time were (as you note above): (1) "fear that AA Publishing 'would be flooded with similar requests' if it did so." (2) From the wording of the question which the 1953 Conference put to the 1954 Conference, it seems to have been a possible issue (to them) that the Twenty Four Hour book was "non-textbook literature." What would that have meant in 1953? When some folks tried to raise the issue again in 1972 (a year after Bill W.'s death), Bill P. is correct in saying that it was now effectively a dead issue, since Hazelden now owned the copyright, and would not be expected to give it up. Glenn IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5678. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: the 24 Hour book and spirituality vs. religion From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/8/2009 4:04:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: "trysh travis" (trysh.travis at gmail.com) I'd like to politely disagree about the role religion played in the Conference decision not to approve *24 Hours a Day.* I have seen Richmond Walker's correspondence with the GSO and Literature Committee members on this matter at the Archives in New York, and it is fairly clear there that religiosity was an issue. In a letter to O.K.P. dated 18 Feb. 1954, Walker wrote angrily about the rebuff he'd received from the Conference. Describing the official response to the proposal that "AA Publishing should accept the publication rights to the book *24 Hours a Day,*" Walker claimed that "favoring this proposal, the statement is made: 'The Book is accepted and used by a number of AAs who say they find it helpful.'" In opposing this proposal, two statements are made. One is, 'If a precedent is set, through acceptance of this offer, how would the movement be able to deal with the problem of many other booklets, for which Conference approval would undoubtedly be sought?....' The 2nd Statement is 'Since the booklet is regarded by some as having religious overtones, how could the movement justify its entrance into a field of publishing in which misinterpretation and misunderstanding could arise?'" After noting somewhat snippily that *24 Hours* is a "book," not a "booklet," Walker goes on to respond to what must have been a delegate's or a committee's "statements" at some length: "This book carefully refrains from any mention of religion, and it has no more 'religious overtones' than the Big Book. It is largely spiritual and inspirational, but so is the book 'Alcoholics Anonymous.' ... There is no mention of religion in the whole book, for instance, the word 'Christ' or 'Jesus' is never mentioned, nor is it ever advised that we go to church. Where then, is the 'religion'? ... we have a spiritual program" why try to deny it? ... I do not think that either of these statements opposing the proposal have been fairly stated, nor do I think that they have any basis in fact." (RW to OKP, Box 73, Folder C.) We lack a "smoking gun" where someone explicitly states "AAWSO does not want to take over publication of the book because it is too religious," but the content of this letter makes it pretty clear, I think, that Walker got that message. Further, in a response to an "Ask-It Basket" question at the 1968 Conference, "Why can't we have a 24-Hour book printed by G.S.O.?" the statement was made that "The 'Twenty-Four Hours a Day' book was offered to A.A.W.S. some years ago. The Conference then felt it was too spiritually or religiously oriented. A.A.W.S. would be reluctant to put out a similar book. since it has no wish to compete with this book. "The A.A. Way of Life' seems to serve the same need." (Conference Report 1968, p. 27). I think it is important to note this evidence of uneasiness with Walker's religiosity. The logistical and procedural reasons the Conference had for declining the book were real, but so was a skittishness about the book's palpable Christian overtones. I say they are "palpable" because while Walker is correct that Christ, Jesus, and church are never mentioned in *24 Hours,* it routinely alludes to and quotes from the Christian Bible. (I'm just skimming through my copy at random here .... Quote from St. Paul, 26 April; references to parable of the Prodigal Son, 12-13 March; quote from Mark 13:13, "he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved," 19 Feb, etc.) Walker is clearly drawing on many other spiritual sources-- including, as Glenn has pointed out elsewhere, the "New Thought" beliefs he probably developed in the Emmanuel Movement in Boston. Even if it doesn't dominate the book, however, there is a clear pattern of Christian imagery and language present, enough that Walker's claim that "there is no mention of religion" seems a bit naive, and also enough, I think, so that reasonable people might find the book too "religious." I discuss why the Conference might've been particularly concerned about this issue in the mid-1950s in my forthcoming book (which, as some of you know, I have been working on for MANY 24 hours!). We're still a few months away from the publication date, but you can get a preview of the finished product here: http://www.uncpress.unc.edu/browse/book_detail?title_id=1647. Trysh T. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5679. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: the 24 Hour book and spirituality vs. religion From: rick tompkins . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/6/2009 8:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Thank you, Glenn, for the reports on the early AA use of the Upper Room periodical from the United Methodist Church and the phenomenal demand for the Twenty-Four Hours A Day book. "The Upper Room" was always available, for free or with a small-sum mailed subscription, in the Narthex (the 'lobby') of my home Methodist Church and I'm sure it's made available there today. It can still inspire me, but not in the manner that Twenty-Four Hours A Day led me in my early sobriety. AAWS' Daily Reflections wasn't available until 1990 and the "24 Hours Book" was the second reading at all of the Groups I attended, and its use remains widespread here in Illinois. It's an available book printed nearby in Minnesota and I wonder if that's one reason for its prevalence in the Midwest.there are still Steering Committee discussions on which daily book to read at Group meetings and I'm sure that when AAWS assembles the second Daily Reflections (as currently proposed) there'll be a new round of more discussions. The content of the 24 Hours book's format can still find its way into an AA meeting, "can we hear the AA Thought For the Day?" and all three sections are normally read. And, it reminds the group of the actual calendar date, to boot, LOL. Apart from the "thought," the "meditation," and the ending 'question' the "Meditation For the Day" comes directly from the Oxford Group movement's use of God Calling by Two Listeners (A.H. Russell, Editor). Richmond W. either excerpted verbatim or rewrote many of the same daily messages from God Calling, bringing it home to AA recovery and spiritual growth. I wonder if he was ever approached by Oxford Groupers (or Moral Re-Armament members) on his use of the older "Two Listeners" work. Was he accused of being "not maximum" or worse? Perhaps by the time Richmond finished his draft in the early 1950s, God Calling was an historically obscure item. The "Two Listeners" daily meditations are still in print by a few publishers and I was fortunate to find a used copy years ago. In the 24 Hours book, some of the Meditations follow directly from the Thought and others seem completely disjointed from the lead Thought, but the textual 'dance with the power of God' reinforced my dwindled Faith early on. I like to think that Richmond's work was assembled and written as a recovered AA's resource to find and rediscover faith in the Trinity of an almighty God. I chose my most effective concept of a Higher Power as the workings of the Holy Spirit and have found others who found the same HP along the way. My belief in the "Son" is ultimately an AA outside issue but it's an 'inside job' for this ex-drunk! The apostle Paul writes that the 'worldly wisdom is not God's wisdom.' My path of recovery led me full circle to my belief in "the peace of God that surpasses all understanding" and I am a better person for it. Richmond W.'s effort took the wheel for a while on that path. With serenity to all, Rick, Illinois On a side note, when Works Publishing and/or A.A. Publishing declined taking on the responsibilities of publishing the 24 Hours book, the Little Red Book, or any other suggestions, it really had no choice---the funding wasn't available, period. Hence, the dual-publishing of the 1953 12+12 with Harper Brothers helped its distribution, along with the same dual publishing of the 1957 AA Comes of Age with Harper's. Even the fledgling GSO in England politely, in 1954, declined to publish the 12+12 in the UK for lack of funds. ---R. - - - - FROM GLENN C. Rich had gotten sober once for two and a half years (1939-1941) in the Oxford Group, but then he went back to drinking again. From 1941 to May of 1942, Rich was not only back to drinking again, he was putting away so much alcohol that he had to be hospitalized several times, lying there suffering through the D.T.'s. But still he could not stop. "I was lying in a hospital when my wife sent a lawyer to tell me she did not want me around any longer. In this she was certainly justified -- I was of no use as a husband or father to my children." He and Agnes had been married about nineteen years at the time. He was forty-nine years old, and everything was now destroyed. It was clear to one and all that he was a hopeless alcoholic, and as he said in his lead, "my wife rightly refused to put up with it any longer." So he was very definitely "not maximum"! Finally, in May 1942, he joined the newly founded AA group in Boston, and never drank again. And also got back with his wife and family again. He says at the beginning of the Twenty Four Hour book that he obtained permission from Dodd, Mead and Company for adapting material from "God Calling by Two Listeners" for use in the fine print section at the bottom of each page. Glenn C. A SHORT BIOGRAPHY OF RICHMOND WALKER: http://hindsfoot.org/rwfla1.html http://hindsfoot.org/RWfla2.html http://hindsfoot.org/RWfla3.html (based on his memoirs plus some of the autobiographical passages in the Twenty Four Hour book) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5680. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: the 24 Hour book and spirituality vs. religion From: Lee Nickerson . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/7/2009 8:30:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I remember a discussion I had with Frank M. about the 24 hour book. I came away thinking that the only reason that AA did not conference-approve this book was because it would set a precedent other than AA publishing and creating their own literature. It seems that most AAs I know are self-fancied writers and if there was a part of the Conference that approved any writing that was submitted, there would probably have to be a separate office somewhere just to handle that load. I don't see or hear about the 24 hour Book much in my area but it was the top recommended reading when I got sober. I am satisfied with the belief that if something is not conference-approved, it is not conference-non approved. We can only examine and approve so much. - - - - From: "John Schram" (lasenby327 at surfree.com) I too had heard the the Walker book Twenty-Four Hours a Day was turned down due to meditation and prayer section. I had heard this came from book "God Calling" by A J Russell. John Schram Corona del Mar, Calif. - - - - From: James Flynn (jdf10487 at yahoo.com) I thought the Daily Reflections book was written so that AA members could have a Daily Meditations book that was conference approved. When I got sober in 1987 it was suggested to me (by a sponsor) that I get a 24 hour a day book, a Big Book, the 12 &12, Living Sober, the Little Green Book and the Little Red Book. This was to be my "spiritual stash." Apparently this was standard operating procedure in some parts of the country before the Daily Reflections book was published. I say this because I have corresponded with many other people in AA who were given similiar directions by their sponsors. Later it seemed that there was some anti-hazelden, anti-treatment sentiments going around the program and people stopped advocating the use of Hazelden publications and chips. Hazelden or "Hazelnut" as some critics liked to call it, became the object of derision. Evidently this was because they represented "watered down" AA, in some people's minds. The irony of this is that books like the 24 hour a day book actually placed more of an emphasis on the spiritual angle than some conference-approved AA literature did and was not filled with "psychobabble" or "treatment concepts" as some people like to claim. Sincerely, Jim F. - - - - From: "grault" (GRault at yahoo.com) I think it may be a bit of a stretch to say flatly that the Conference did not turn down the 24 Hour book offer because it was too religious. In fact, that may have been one of the reasons, at least in the minds of some or many of the voting Delegates. The Conference Report cites the other reason (would be flooded with requests), but of course tact would suggest avoiding also saying that the book was too religious. Many GSC discussions and delegate motives do not find their way into the GSC Report. Clearly, 24 Hours is less spcifically Christian than The Upper Room, but it often has a Christian ring to it, quotes the bible, etc. And incidentally, it seems to me that saying that the GSC actions are performed "by us" is true only to about the same extent that actions by the U.S. Congress are actions "by us" who live in the United States. Not a criticism, just an observation. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5681. . . . . . . . . . . . Two questions on Grapevine items From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/6/2009 9:03:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Question #1- I have 2 different mini Grapevines. One has a picture of mountains on the cover and says "every month,all year" AA Grapevine our meeting in print it lists AA Steps and Traditions,Serenity Prayer,AA History,I am Responsible, and Unity Declaration I got this one around 1995 and was told that it was no longer going to be printed. In the audio tapes I received from the Kay Stewart Collection of Akron, I found an earlier copy of this mini Grapevine. It is orange and white and has pictures of Bill & Bob rather than the sketches in the newer copy. They were loaded with AA History and make for an easy introduction to AA History for someone new to AA. Does anyone know the history of this mini-Grapevine? When & Why they were produced and why they were stopped . Question #2- I have 3 copies of "The Best of Bill"-from The Grapevine The earliest are 5 separate pamphlets in a packet. They are Faith, Fear,Honesty,Humility, and Love. It shows July 1965 as a publishing date. The middle one is a single booklet, blue gray in color and on the first page says"NOTE: The statistics on pages 4 and 5 were current in 1961. AA membership is now estimated to be close to two million worldwide." It shows copyrights of 1958,1961,1962,1986,1989,and 1990. The latest is book like and has a foreword that says "In 1988, as a result of the many requests over the years for the reprints of five of these articles--"Faith", "Fear", "Honesty", "Humility"and "Love"--a Collection entitled "The Best of Bill was Compiled" Were there more than these three publications of this Grapevine edition? It appears that there may have been one from 1961. Yours in Service' Shakey Mike Gwirtz Phila, Pa. USA Please remember the 13th NAW in Sept on the left coast. It's our workshop..bring someone new. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5682. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Publishing the 24 Hour book From: momaria33772 . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/8/2009 5:38:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Charlie, Each year Delegates are assigned to various committees within the Conference. Those committees are comprised of Delegates, Trustees and the GSO Staff. When the 4th Edition was being prepared, it was decided to keep working copies down to as few people as possible. There were fears that if everyone reviewed the work in process some stories might get out and our Copyright might get compromised. Therefore the Literature Committee members were the ones who saw the final copy and sent a recommendation to approve it to the full Conference. The 2001 Conference approved and it was sent to publication. I was fortunate to know the Delegate from my Area who was on that literature Committee and I know that she took her responsibility very seriously and did the very best she could in the review and approval process. Once the book came out, the fellowship found some things they didn't like. In 2002, some members objected to the sentence in the Forward to the Fourth Edition that said "Fundamentally, though, the differnce between an electronic meeting and the home group around the corner is only one of format". Many of our members disagreed with this assesment. The Literature Committee recommended that the sentence be deleted. The 2002 Conference agreed and the Forward was changed. One of the goals for the Fourth Edition was to keep it roughly the same size while introducing new stories to help new people relate. In the process, some existing stories were edited and punctuation was updated. As people read the book, some noticed the differences in their favorite stories. At the 2003 Conference, the Literature Committee recommended against restoring "The Housewife Who Drank At Home", Me, An Alcoholic?", "Another Chance", and "Freedom From Bondage" to the Third Edition version. There had been an earlier Conference Advisory Action saing that Dr. Bob's story should not be changed without written permission of 3/4 of all registered groups. The punctuation in "Dr. Bob's Nightmare" had been updated from the Third Edition version. Many of us thought that was within the spirit of that Advisory Action since it did not change the content and since that kind of editing had occurred in earlier editions. Some members submitted an Agenda item because they thought that even minor changes violated the previous Advisory Action and that no Conference had approved the specific changes. At the 2004 Conference, the Literature Committee recommended against restoring the punctuation in "Dr. Bob's Nightmare" to that of the Third Edition. When this recommendation came to the Conference, A Floor Action was submitted and the full Conference overrode the Literature Committee. When our Delegate gave his Conference report he told us that he was prepared to vote against the change in accordance with the wishes of many of us in the area. He finally voted for the Floor Action because he saw that it was an issue that was deviding AA and while he had an obligation to our Area, he had a bigger obligation to AA as a whole. I was never so proud of someone who disagreed with me as I was that day. I also saw a post that said that Hazeldon also edits and changes publications. While that may be true, the point that I was making is that the if AA were to accept a book for publication, the author would no longer own it. The fellowship could change it in significant ways without even consulting the original author. This includes content as well as grammer or punctuation. My wife and I are tapers from the St. Pete, Florida area. We have a lot of people with 50 Plus years of sobriety. When I record them at a group anniversary or at their anniversary, I will sometime send a copy to the GSO Archives. I always have to provide a release to GSO. Theoretically this gives them the right to splice it any way they wish. Of course, I don't expect them to do that. It is just that I have given up all rights just as the author of a book would have to do. Jim H --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Charlie Parker" wrote: > > What were the changes to Dr Bob's Nightmare > and which foreword was changed?? > > Charlie Parker > Ace Golf Netting > 828 Wagon Trail > Austin, TX 78758 > Toll free 877-223-6387 > > -----Original Message----- > From: momaria33772 > Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 4:51 PM > > I'd like to share one other thought I have had > every time anyone has brought up publishing of > any materials like these. Would the people who > love and use the 24 Hour book be prepared to > have it changed at some future Delegate > Conference based on some objection that > someone in my home group had and got submitted > to the Conference Agenda? > > For those who don't believe that could happen, > I would point out that both the fourth edition > versions of the Foreword and Dr. Bob's Nightmare > have been changed based on submissions by > members and groups in the US and Canada. I > could easily see today's version of the 24 Hour > Book being radically different from the one > originally published. > > Jim H. > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5683. . . . . . . . . . . . Richmond Walker''s Life From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/8/2009 6:01:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Richmond Walker's own autobiographical memoir: http://hindsfoot.org/rwvt.html (Bill Pittman thought that this was a transcript of a lead which Rich gave in Rutland, Vermont in 1959, which was the way this was first posted on the Hindsfoot site. Mel Barger and I eventually came to feel, however, that this was more likely a written memoir composed by Rich at some point.) A short biography of Richmond Walker: http://hindsfoot.org/rwfla1.html http://hindsfoot.org/RWfla2.html http://hindsfoot.org/RWfla3.html (Based on the preceding memoir plus some of the autobiographical passages in the Twenty Four Hour book.) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5684. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: the 24 Hour book and spirituality vs. religion From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/8/2009 5:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Trysh I can't prove it, but despite the "religious" claims made by the Conference and others, I would not discount the potential effect that acceptance of the 24 Hour book would have had on the more mundane matter of Bill W's royalty agreement. The 1951 Conference approved an increase of Bill's royalties from 10% to 15%. The final Conference report states: ============================= "It was reported that the Trustees of the Foundation, following Dr. Bob's death, had voted to increase Bill's royalty on the Big Book from 10 per cent to 15 per cent. This author's royalty would also apply to other Books the Trustees are anxious to have Bill prepare for their consideration in the future. The chairman reported that Bill insisted that this increase be approved by the General Service Conference. A motion approving the action of the Trustees was approved unanimously by the Delegates. In addition, the Conference approved unanimously a motion recommending to the Trustees of the Foundation that steps be taken to insure that Bill and Lois receive book royalties so long as either one shall live. This motion was adopted after it was disclosed that under the existing arrangement Bill would have no legal basis for claiming royalties upon the expiration of the Big Book copyright and that no provision exists for Lois in the event of Bill's prior death. It was pointed out that, in the original stock set-up of Works Publishing, Inc., Bill had assigned royalties to the Foundation. Later, he had turned over to the Foundation his original 200 shares of stock, whose recent earnings have averaged $7,000-$8,000 [note: $62,000-$71,000 in 2008 dollars] annually. Thus, at one period Bill had neither stock or royalties. Prior to World War II, Bill had an average weekly income of about $30 [note: $455 in 2008 dollars] from proceeds of the "Rockefeller dinners." Later he received a drawing account of $25 a week, enabling him and Lois to move to Bedford Hills (N.Y.). When war broke out, with the possibility that he might be recalled to active duty, Bill suggested, on the basis of his authorship of the Big Book, that he be granted a royalty on book sales, as a means of providing income for Lois. This has been Bill's only source of income, with one exception, since that time. The Trustees have repeatedly offered to place him on a salaried basis, but these offers have been declined. The "exception" occurred several years ago when it was discovered that Bill's annual income for the preceding seven years that averaged $1,730---slightly more than $32. a week. The Trustees thereupon made a grant to Bill equivalent to $1,500 for each of those seven years, out of which he was able to purchase his Bedford Hills house. Inflation and the decline in book sales have combined to cut Bill's income practically in half in the past year. The five per cent increase in royalty means that his earnings will once more approximate those of three years ago. The possible implications of "professionalism" in his relation to the movement have troubled him deeply, Bill reported. He concluded that there was "no other way to go on" and that as long as he is devoting his full time to the movement, even though he would not object to a hair shirt himself, "he had no business putting one on Lois." ============================= It seems that it would have been very awkward (at best) for Bill to justify claims to royalties on his yet-to-be-written works when one of the most popular books circulating in the Fellowship was being offered gratis. That's just speculation on my part but it seems plausible. I'd suggest the same consideration for the "Little Red Book" (one of my favorites). Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Glenn Chesnut Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 3:04 PM To: AAHistoryLovers group Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: the 24 Hour book and spirituality vs. religion From: "trysh travis" (trysh.travis at gmail.com) I'd like to politely disagree about the role religion played in the Conference decision not to approve *24 Hours a Day.* I have seen Richmond Walker's correspondence with the GSO and Literature Committee members on this matter at the Archives in New York, and it is fairly clear there that religiosity was an issue. In a letter to O.K.P. dated 18 Feb. 1954, Walker wrote angrily about the rebuff he'd received from the Conference. Describing the official response to the proposal that "AA Publishing should accept the publication rights to the book *24 Hours a Day,*" Walker claimed that "favoring this proposal, the statement is made: 'The Book is accepted and used by a number of AAs who say they find it helpful.'" In opposing this proposal, two statements are made. One is, 'If a precedent is set, through acceptance of this offer, how would the movement be able to deal with the problem of many other booklets, for which Conference approval would undoubtedly be sought?....' The 2nd Statement is 'Since the booklet is regarded by some as having religious overtones, how could the movement justify its entrance into a field of publishing in which misinterpretation and misunderstanding could arise?'" After noting somewhat snippily that *24 Hours* is a "book," not a "booklet," Walker goes on to respond to what must have been a delegate's or a committee's "statements" at some length: "This book carefully refrains from any mention of religion, and it has no more 'religious overtones' than the Big Book. It is largely spiritual and inspirational, but so is the book 'Alcoholics Anonymous.' ... There is no mention of religion in the whole book, for instance, the word 'Christ' or 'Jesus' is never mentioned, nor is it ever advised that we go to church. Where then, is the 'religion'? ... we have a spiritual program" why try to deny it? ... I do not think that either of these statements opposing the proposal have been fairly stated, nor do I think that they have any basis in fact." (RW to OKP, Box 73, Folder C.) We lack a "smoking gun" where someone explicitly states "AAWSO does not want to take over publication of the book because it is too religious," but the content of this letter makes it pretty clear, I think, that Walker got that message. Further, in a response to an "Ask-It Basket" question at the 1968 Conference, "Why can't we have a 24-Hour book printed by G.S.O.?" the statement was made that "The 'Twenty-Four Hours a Day' book was offered to A.A.W.S. some years ago. The Conference then felt it was too spiritually or religiously oriented. A.A.W.S. would be reluctant to put out a similar book. since it has no wish to compete with this book. "The A.A. Way of Life' seems to serve the same need." (Conference Report 1968, p. 27). I think it is important to note this evidence of uneasiness with Walker's religiosity. The logistical and procedural reasons the Conference had for declining the book were real, but so was a skittishness about the book's palpable Christian overtones. I say they are "palpable" because while Walker is correct that Christ, Jesus, and church are never mentioned in *24 Hours,* it routinely alludes to and quotes from the Christian Bible. (I'm just skimming through my copy at random here .... Quote from St. Paul, 26 April; references to parable of the Prodigal Son, 12-13 March; quote from Mark 13:13, "he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved," 19 Feb, etc.) Walker is clearly drawing on many other spiritual sources-- including, as Glenn has pointed out elsewhere, the "New Thought" beliefs he probably developed in the Emmanuel Movement in Boston. Even if it doesn't dominate the book, however, there is a clear pattern of Christian imagery and language present, enough that Walker's claim that "there is no mention of religion" seems a bit naive, and also enough, I think, so that reasonable people might find the book too "religious." I discuss why the Conference might've been particularly concerned about this issue in the mid-1950s in my forthcoming book (which, as some of you know, I have been working on for MANY 24 hours!). We're still a few months away from the publication date, but you can get a preview of the finished product here: http://www.uncpress.unc.edu/browse/book_detail?title_id=1647. Trysh T. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5685. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: the 24 Hour book and spirituality vs. religion From: John Barton . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/8/2009 6:32:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII We should also remember that Bill inserted various "Christian Bible" snippets in both the Big Book and the Twelve and Twelve. It also appears as though he used significant Christian thought although veiled in his discussions of "foundations and cornerstones" in Chapter 4 and elsewhere. AA and its early literature were very "spiritual" (i.e non-denominational religious) in nature and AA is the fruit of a tree that was called the Oxford Group, a "First Century Christian Fellowship". Bill also quoted the bible regularly in his private correspondence. God Bless John B. - - - - From: "Rich Foss" (rich.foss at comcast.net) It is interesting to note that the first prayer in the 24 hour book is a Sanskrit proverb. Does that suggest that it is a translation of a Hindu prayer? - - - - From: Jared Lobdell (jlobdell54 at hotmail.com) Both GOD CALLING and GOD AT EVENTIDE (same two listeners) are available now, and GOD CALLING has been a staple of Christian publishers (including Spire and Revell) for the last -- what? -- three quarters of a century? We know Bill didn't care to link AA too closely to the OG (MRA, whatever) -- not sure any other reason is needed for his opposing (and thus AA's opposing) a book based on a well-known OG book. - - - - From: Glenn C. (glennccc at sbcglobal.net) Jared, Other than the automatic writing, what distinctive Oxford Group doctrines do you see in God Calling by Two Listeners, which Richmond Walker copied over into Twenty-Four Hours a Day? Other than the automatic writing, I have never found anything in God Calling that seemed to me to be an identifiably Oxford Group idea: no talk of the Four Absolutes, no Five C's, no statement of the necessity of making restitution, no confession by the Two Listeners of their own sins. And most importantly, no indication that the Two Listeners had ever attended Oxford Group meetings themselves. Glenn IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5686. . . . . . . . . . . . 24 Hour Book From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/9/2009 4:30:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Since the 24 Hour book (like the Bible!) is not Conference-approved, how did sending profits from its sale to GSO (between 1948 and 1954, when it was being printed under the sponsorship of the Daytona Beach AA Group) square with Tradition Seven? Laurie A. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5687. . . . . . . . . . . . Mike Wallace Interview with Lillian Roth (1956) From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/9/2009 2:03:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The interview may be seen on your computer as a video at: http://solstice.ischool.utexas.edu/tmwi/index.php/Lillian_Roth - - - - A TRANSCRIPT OF THIS VIDEO: THE MIKE WALLACE INTERVIEW Guest: Lillian Roth Saturday, April 5, 1958 WALLACE: Good evening. Tonight we go after the latest chapter in the story of a woman who fought her way back from alcoholism and despair, to become again one of the most compelling figures in show business. She is Lillian Roth, a million dollar film star at eighteen, an alcoholic at thirty, a great torch singer only five years ago and today a woman with a new story to tell. If you're curious to know why Lillian Roth says that the past five years have been among the most difficult in her life, if you want to hear her thoughts on her conversion to Catholicism, and if you want to know why Miss Roth says that despite her recent success, she is forever trying to fill what she calls an aching, a frightening void within herself, we'll go after those stories in just a moment. My name is Mike Wallace, the cigarette is Parliament. (OPENING CREDITS) WALLACE: We'll talk with Lillian Roth in just a moment. (COMMERCIAL) WALLACE: And now to our story. Several years ago, an all but forgotten entertainer by the name of Lillian Roth, wrote a brutally frank autobiography called I'll Cry Tomorrow. It was made into a successful Hollywood film. Miss Roth herself was swamped with offers to appear in television, nightclubs. Since then Miss Roth has forged a new life, which she has written about in a new book, to be published later this month, called Beyond My Worth. Lillian, first of all, let me ask you this: After your remarkable comeback a few years ago I'd imagine that the general public's impression of you is that of a happy and successful woman, who has finally found her way. Yet, in your new book, Beyond My Worth you wrote this: you said: "I've had mornings recently when I woke up and my whole life seemed in chaos and I've said to myself, I've fallen back... I've fallen back again." Why have you felt that way? ROTH: Well, Mike, I guess it's something that stems from my childhood. I've never quite felt up to of the many amazing things that happened to me. I've never felt at school that I was as pretty as the next child, or as clever as the next child, and anytime anything happens to me, I just thought it was luck. And that was mostly all through my life, and if I did a performance and the audience were wonderful to me, I thought it really wasn't good enough, it could have been better. I've never felt quite adequate, and because... WALLACE: And so even now, in spite of the fact that you have overcome what obstacles you have overcome... ROTH: Well, you see, when I say: Beyond My Worth, I honestly feel I haven't done anything extraordinary. The public has been amazing. I've gotten mail from all over the world you'd think I was a miracle woman. And I'm not! It's through these people and with the help of God that I have been able to overcome so much, but the inadequacy and the guilt within me is still very strong and many times I feel I'm just not what they... I'm not what I seem to be. WALLACE: I gather that you find a real responsibility, an awesome responsibility in the very fact of your comeback. ROTH: I think that the battle of success is probably more difficult than the climb. People expect too much from you -- or rather, you want to be all that people expect from you, I shouldn't say that they expect too much of me because they're pretty good about it -- But it isn't only that you have to deliver the gift of your entertainment as the good Lord gifted you, but there are other things in your life and I've never professed to be a saint or a martyr. There are many people in the world overcoming greater problems which I tell of in Beyond My Worth. But comparatively speaking, mine seems simple, but this inner conflict, this inner thing that I have, I think too telling the truth about it makes people realize that they're not alone. You see people used to be able to say, "Lillian, let me help you up," after I took that first long step alone. WALLACE: Yes. ROTH: But now, through the mail I've started to feel that people were wondering if they could talk up there to me. And I'm not up there; I don't want to be up there where the people are concerned only as a performer. I want to be right alongside with them. WALLACE: You get a tremendous number of letters, I gather, calls from people who are also in a kind of pain, and trying to find their way and figure you've done it, and perhaps you can help them to find it for themselves. ROTH: Well, I... it isn't just problem letters I get. After all I'm not the know-all, see-all, and I haven't the answer to everything, but the type mail I get comes from psychiatrists, doctors, writers, priests, ministers, and there are lonely ministers, nuns, and priests all over the world and I can read between their lines too, and they think that this certainly shows the grace of God being bestowed and my difference of course is that I don't think God graces one person and not the next. But I am very grateful for their affection. WALLACE: Tell me this: Does the fear of sliding back, of hitting rock-bottom again, does that worry you, or do you feel you're over that hump? ROTH: Well, they say that... I mean, even if you should slip back a little, it isn't really slipping back. If you fall slightly, that's just another step up. I mean to step down is to step up. Sometimes we're forced to be knocked down a little bit, and then we gather our forces together, and we're that much stronger when we go again. I don't think... I think once you've hit the bottom you're not afraid down there. You just feel you don't want to disappoint people. WALLACE: Of course one of the things that sparked your comeback was your book, I'll Cry Tomorrow... and I'm sure this latest book, which is also quite revealing, will do your career no harm. Let me ask you this: Did you never think it undignified, Lillian; did you never think it in bad taste for a woman to write so candidly of her personal life and of the life of others? ROTH: Truthfully, I wasn't happy about any of it... I think I told you when I spoke to you a year ago... there's no glory in being a glorified alcoholic. If these were the steps I had to take, and there seemed to be a force that worked it out... I know when I first worked on my book coming from Australia 10 years ago, and through the years -- speaking of I'll Cry Tomorrow -- I shelved it. I closed the book and said: 'That woman!' But after this is your life, After Ralph had prevailed on me, and even there I didn't want to do it. I was hesitant. It was terrible panic when I first went to Australia. It... it just isn't a good feeling to know that you have other gifts, but I rated what was done. I mean, I rated the fact that I didn't deserve any better than to be called an alcoholic and I don't know why I should have expected extra... WALLACE: But, why did you want to write about it? Why did you want to tell and, and not only about yourself, but you wrote fairly graphically about, for instance, about being beaten by one husband, about your wedding night with another husband, a fairly prominent man, about emotional scenes with your mother. Why have... why did you find it necessary to write about these things? ROTH: Well I didn't feel that I was writing an expose, I felt I was disclosing rather than exposing. My husband felt from the inception that if I wrote everything out... I remember when I first went to a hospital for slightly mentally unbalanced, from 12, 13 years ago, I said even then I wanted to write a book... but then they told me everybody that comes in here has a book to write. So I kept it to myself for some time. But Bert told me it isn't a case of being a martyr. He said this, "In telling all and freeing yourself, and the world being a big jury, they're very fair; and in doing that, maybe somebody along to this will be helped." I'm not going to tell you that my thought was I'm going to go out and be a martyr now and help the world. I didn't feel that way; I was frightened to death when this book came out. WALLACE: Diana Barrymore, who wrote a somewhat similar book, told us that she did it as a catharsis to get the past out of her system. Was that...? You smile when I say that. ROTH: Well, I really... I'm not living my past any more. I'm creating new thoughts and new habits. A priest once told me, this may answer it by a thought, that there are certain bad characteristics or formation of a bad character that is always there with bad habits, but you can create good habits and work on them so often that you form a new character and I feel that if... I'm not speaking, necessarily about Miss Barrymore, but anyone that continues to live as they lived in the past, isn't doing anything to send out a message or to help someone in distress. Not that they have to. But what is the sense of the book? If you're going to go to all this embarrassment, you might be helpful while doing it. And I... I think it has... well, I shouldn't speak about what it's proven, but it has helped many people be able to overcome certain pain that they've had. WALLACE: I'm certain of that. Have you ever wondered, though, why the American public seems to be so fascinated with this kind of story? Is it possibly just the desire to look... to look across the courtyard into somebody else's open window? ROTH: Well, I think where my story is concerned, it goes back to an old philosophy that I read that said, "In each man's heart there's a secret sorrow that the world knows nothing about." And often we call a man 'cold' when he's really just sad. And I think that humanity feels that their sorrow is for you and their compassion is for you, but it has touched a part of their hearts that they will not open the door themselves. They won't even begin... and in the subconscious the tie is there... WALLACE: They see a little of themselves in you and that is why they want to read and hear and... ROTH: Yes, and... and even youngsters that write to me, they tell me they understand the problems at home more and I just think it's reached, that's all. WALLACE: Let's look at some of the things you write about. One of them, which helped you rehabilitate yourself, has been religion. In your new book, you write with complete assurance... "God loves me." How do you know He does? ROTH: Because I think God is all loving, just as a parent would be, that they love their children good, bad or indifferent. And it's often been said, I believe, sum and substance of the Bible is that little black sheep that strayed away, that worries him so very much, He hopes it will come back some day. WALLACE: Lillian, who is God? ROTH: God is everything that's quite wonderful and the... you know I always quote because I think that the authenticity of a thing... After all I'm a new writer, I don't even know if I have a great talent except of telling of myself and giving of myself. But a man like Emerson says that God made... almost everything He made had a crack in it... and I thought that was such a good thought. We have... we don't have this feeling of perfection, but to please Him we'd like to improve ourselves. And I think he's all loving and he's always there, we just don't always know it. WALLACE: Let me pursue this a little more specifically. You were born into a Jewish family, yet several years ago you converted to Catholicism. Why was Judaism apparently unsatisfactory, unfulfilling for you? ROTH: Oh, I don't think that Judaism was a case of unfulfillment, I think that Catholicism is a fulfillment of Judaism as far as the acceptance of the Messiah. It... My only difficulty has been in the last two years with all my respect to the Church because it doesn't make me right and the Church wrong, I can't go in and say now this is Lillian's way of doing it. I just felt that certain man made dogma little things simple as a child. They say "Come as little children." Well, some of the little flaws or that I felt were flaws, flaws within myself -- the question -- were child like things, and I have never denied my Judaism and as a matter of fact, I learned... WALLACE: But how -- wait -- How can you convert from Judaism to Catholicism and yet not deny your Judaism? ROTH: Well, of course, I have a different theory. I believe that an Irishman's an Irishman, a Jew is a Jew, an American-Irishman, American Jew. I can't see saying that it is merely a religion, I don't go along with that. I think Christ on the Cross which I spoke to you last time was a Jew who never denied his Judaism and Christian came from the word "Follower of Christ" and so therefore that's an acceptance of the Jewish Messiah and he stated he came to fulfill the law, so I don't see where there's a denial of Judaism or... how can you deny what you are? WALLACE: You didn't feel the least bit disloyal when you turned from Judaism as a religion to Catholicism as a religion? ROTH: Well, in this way, the physical sense, the material sense, I do believe there is a time in the Bible that Christ says that "They will mock you in my name sake and that..." and it did come in the minority. People were very good about it, they didn't care how I found God as long as I had Him, but I don't think there was too much resentment. I did have feelings of guilt but I would have to rise above it and try to get into a spiritual way and to my own self be true. You know Mike, they wrote about you in the LaGorian which Father Clyber who is a Jew and a priest convert to Catholicism and he sends me the LaGorian and it's strange, a few weeks ago they had an article where you asked the Catholic Church some questions. WALLACE: Yes. ROTH: While I was reading it, I also read an article about the face... Five Faces of a Hypocryte and I thought to myself, one of the things were those that professed to be a Christian, you know, and wear the face of a hypocrite, and I thought that went along with my thinking, that if I were to take and to continue taking sacraments, at a time when I felt in the eyes of God, I didn't go along with it, I would be wearing that face of a hypocrite. And, although I'm lonely, not belonging at the moment... WALLACE: You... Have you forsaken Catholicism now? ROTH: Well I... I hope God hasn't forsaken me, that's the main point and I feel that in conscience I can look up to Him and that what is right to do, he will lead me to. One wonderful thing about the Catholics and the Catholic Church, and my own people too is that they don't desert you, you may desert them but they say you shall be back. But I think it's along the lines of wherever the good Lord wants you, that's where you'll be. WALLACE: You were a member of Alcoholics Anonymous? ROTH: Yes. WALLACE: Did you regard that...? -- are you still a member of AA? ROTH: Well I follow the principles. I believe with AA, of course I don't advise this for a newcomer, but I think just as you get well, after you come out of a hospital, I don't think that you have to sit in the hospital, come back every day; I think you use the medicines and in this case it's the suggestions and principles of AA. WALLACE: Did you regard...? -- Do members of AA regard it themselves as kind of a religion? ROTH: No, to the best of my knowledge, they believe that AA will direct people back to their own religions or give them some spiritual contact with God. WALLACE: Back in 1955, one of the co-founders of Alcoholics Anonymous wrote a thought provoking pamphlet in which he warned former alcoholics against, resuming what he called, quote: "our old and disastrous pursuit of personal power and prestige, public honors and money." He suggested that these are egotistical, self-seeking ephemeral things and if the alcoholic or the former alcoholic were to lose them again, that could shatter a person all over again. Now you are a fairly ambitious woman. Do you ever feel that perhaps you're pushing... pursuing the dangerous course now in going after prestige, money, public honor once again? ROTH: Well I'm pretty sure that when the good Lord put us on this earth, he knew that there were human footsteps to take and he certainly doesn't want us to be a ward of a state. Whatever our job is, whether we're a truck driver and go back to trucking, or a waitress go back to the waitress. Every job is important in life and mine was to go back to singing and as I said earlier, there's no glory in it. Now, these rules that you read; you see, when I joined AA there was no such thing as a rule. There were suggestions. I wasn't anonymous, I... when I was drinking, of course, and I didn't wish this type publicity but I have found the press to be fair. I've said it over and over again: it came out and they could just, as well, have gone to the morgue and dug up any story. I don't think that there is glory in saying: Look, I want a lot of gold stars; I want to be up in lights 'cause I'm a cured alcoholic. I mean, it's a little bit ridiculous, I feel that I'm now after 5 years or 12 years that I have had my sobriety, free from the bonds of sympathy. I don't feel if the public comes back three and four times or I'm asked to appear places that many times that they come back to see what an alcoholic that doesn't drink anymore looks like. WALLACE: Lillian in a moment I'd like to ask you about something that you write of quite movingly in your new book. You write, "All people go through life with a void inside them." You write that even love and marriage probably doesn't vanish entirely that feeling of aloneness, of lostness; you say, "The void seems to remain during life." I'd like to know why you say that. And we'll get Lillian Roth's answer in just 60 seconds. (COMMERCIAL) WALLACE: Lillian, in your book you write, "Within us, there seems to be an aching, a frightening void we are forever trying to fill but never quite do. We're always alone." What do you mean? ROTH: You've never felt that feeling? WALLACE: Uh-huh. ROTH: Well, with the hundreds of people, the thousands of people I've met, it's a strange empathy I guess I get and maybe at times contrary to belief, I'm subject to a slight melancholia but I look across a room at a person and somehow the way the shoulder is, a certain look in his face, the age of the face, I know that the man has lived a life that hasn't had any great joy in it but he's worked very hard. I never saw Death of a Salesman but I imagine the expression that I've seen on the pictures of that man's face, I've seen in so many faces and you want to go over and say, "Oh, I want to do something, say something to you." And also I feel that when two people love each other and are married, the ache of loneliness for someone that's gone that you wish could be part of this and they're not there anymore to see it, your parents or your loved ones can see all this, and also if you have your separate little problems and you don't want to put it on one another. You don't want to tell the fears. Lots of times, -- and Bert probably is watching tonight, he's in California, he hasn't been too well and it's our first time we've been apart in 12 years but you see we're not really apart -- but a lot of times does that void... he may have an ache or pain, he says, "I don't want to tell Lillian." I may have a certain worry, I think he almost made me come to New York so that I wouldn't be there to worry; but it's not just me or just Bert, it's... I don't know whether it's a longing to a return properly, Freud said: to the mother... the original birth state or to a humanity and those of the Church who are so longing to return to God, but we are surely never complete here on this earth. WALLACE: Are you going to...? -- Do you believe that you will find your completeness after life? ROTH: Oh well, I certainly hope and I feel like I'm on the verge of some discovery and I don't like to delve too much because I don't want to go back to Bloomingdale's, they'll say this gal is odd, but I know that Lecomte du Noüy you recall the book that fascinated me so, the physicist that wrote Human Destiny, he said that the odd person of today is just the normal person, you know a century from now when you have these dreams and ideals. And I think all those wonderful stars and planets that we're trying to reach so hard, we're going to sit all around them one day in the hereafter and those will be the different stages until we'll reach our final place. WALLACE: You mentioned Freud. Have you ever thought about analysis? ROTH: Well I did have a doctor, A. A. Bill who passed away... sent me to the original place to rest my little mind when I was thirty-four years old and up there they didn't believe in my particular case that there should be deep analysis. They feel that it takes about a year and a half and if you can't discover what's wrong in a year and a half, that's bad. And if it takes any longer, it's real bad. If there's nothing wrong, there will be something wrong and I don't mean to interfere with the psychoanalysis but that was Doctor Bill's advice where I was concerned. WALLACE: Lillian, when you add it all up, all of the tragic things that have happened to you, all of the unhappiness that rarely comes to one human being, and I ask this question perfectly seriously, have you ever or do you now ever regret the fact that you were born? ROTH: No, no. Look I knew my mother and I knew my father and so many wonderful people, I think it's all been worth it. I think I have a greater appreciation for life than I ever had with all my little hesitancies, a greater gratitude. I'm gradually learning more compassion and understanding and I just hope I can be. I don't intend to be or hope to be a saint but I hope I can, in some measure, repay the good that's come to me. And, I don't mean that as a Pollyanna or Little Orphan Annie glad all over, Annie Rooney, is that it? I just think that I... I think life has been very good to me and it takes those steps to give you that appreciation. WALLACE: Lil, what makes you happiest? ROTH: Well I don't think that there's any way to judge a complete happiness. I don't think there's such a thing as "happiness". I know my little dogs though, you know our two little dogs out on the coast, and I got very lonesome... Do you think I have time to...? WALLACE: I'm sorry we only have about fifteen seconds. ROTH: Oh... well I have the cutest little things about dogs. I think that we all get a great joy from the animals... one thing in the world that loves you without question. WALLACE: Lillian, thank you for coming and spending this half hour and I know lots of people who want to read your new book Beyond My Work. ROTH: Thank you, Mike. WALLACE: Few come back stories have been as compelling as Lillian Roth's, perhaps because it seems to be a story that has no end, no artificial happy conclusion. Miss Roth's comeback has been in the truest sense the search for her self. It has also been an inspiration for other searchers. I'll be back in a moment with a rundown on next week's guest, one of the world's youngest and most embattled diplomats from one of the world's youngest and most embattled countries. (COMMERCIAL) WALLACE: Next week we go after the story of violence in the Middle East, the threat to world peace from hostility between the Arabs and Israel. Our guest will be the Israeli Ambassador to the United States and the United Nations, Abba Eban. If you're curious to know Ambassador Eban's answer to the Arab charge that Israel endangers world peace through a policy of war like expansion, and his reply to the Arab statement that his country, Israel must eventually go bankrupt, we'll go after those stories on the eve of Israel's tenth anniversary as a nation next week. Till then for Parliament, Mike Wallace. Good night. ANNCR: The Mike Wallace Interview has been brought to you by the new High Filtration Parliament. Parliament! Now for the first time at popular price. (CLOSING CREDITS) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5688. . . . . . . . . . . . Travis, Language of the Heart From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/9/2009 4:26:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII By Trysh Travis The Language of the Heart: A Cultural History of the Recovery Movement from Alcoholics Anonymous to Oprah Winfrey University of North Carolina Press, January 2010 http://www.uncpress.unc.edu/browse/book_detail?title_id=1647 In The Language of the Heart Trysh Travis explores the rich cultural history of Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) and its offshoots and the larger "recovery movement" that has grown out of them. Moving from AA's beginnings in the mid-1930s as a men's fellowship that met in church basements to the thoroughly commercialized addiction treatment centers of today, Travis chronicles the development of recovery and examines its relationship to the broad American tradition of self-help, highlighting the roles that gender, mysticism, and print culture have played in that development. Travis draws on hitherto unexamined materials from AA's archives as well as a variety of popular recovery literatures. Her analysis traces AA's embrace of the concept of addiction as disease, the rise of feminist sobriety discourse and the codependence theories of the 1970s and 80s, and Oprah Winfrey's turn-of-the-millennium popularization of metaphysical healing. What unites these varied cultures of recovery, Travis argues, is their desire to offer spiritual solutions to problems of gender and power. Treating self-help seekers as individuals whose intellectual and aesthetic traditions are worth excavating, The Language of the Heart is the first book to attend to the evolution and variation found within the recovery movement and to treat recovery with the attention to detail that its complexity requires. - - - - Referred to in: Message #5678 Re: the 24 Hour book and spirituality vs. religion From: "trysh travis" (trysh.travis at gmail.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5689. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Travis, Language of the Heart From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/9/2009 7:53:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dear Trysh, I've been following historylovers correspondence re 24 Hour book and read yr contribution with interest; I also look forward to reading "The Language of the Heart", the same title that the Grapevine gave to its compilation of Bill W's writings, which might confuse some AA's! The blurb says your book records, inter alia, "AA's embrace of the concept of addiction as disease." Apart from the fact that AA sticks to its experience of alcoholism and does not generalise about the nature of addiction, let me quote my letter which was published in the March 2004 Grapevine, viz: "The November 2003 Grapevine loosely conflates disease with illness. The first 164 pages of the Big Book refer to alcoholism as illness or malady, rather than disease. As Bill W. said, when he addressed the National Clergy Conference on Alcoholism in 1960, 'We (AA) have never called alcoholism a disease because, technically speaking, it is not a disease entity. For example, there is no such thing as heart disease. Instead there are many separate heart ailments or combinations of them. It is something like that with alcoholism. Hence, we did not wish to get in wrong with the medical profession by pronouncing alcoholism as a disease entity. Therefore, we call it an illness, or malady - a far safer term for us to use.' A few years ago, the General Service Office in New York said in a letter to me: 'Our role as a society of recovered alcoholics helping others does not endow us with any mediacal or scientific stature. Therefore, the issue of a medical determination of a disease is something on which AA could not have a position.' If a physician said I had the disease of diabetes and that my only hope of recovery was a spiritual awakening, I would demand a second opinion. We can use disease as a metaphor for alcoholism, as in 'other spiritual diseases' (Big Book); but given the different theories about the causes of alcoholism, the Fellowship would do well not to claim any special medical expertise and thus avoid being drawn into this controversy, as Tradition Ten suggests." (saved on Grapevine digital archive). The distinction between disease and illness is explored in John Crossan's book, "Jesus: a revolutionary biography" - Harper Collins. Treatment centres have their own reasons for claiming all addictions are the same, and that alcoholism is a disease. It would be unfortunate if your book suggested AA took the same view. Abundant blessings, Laurie A. (DOS 8/10/84) - - - - Original Message #5688 By Trysh Travis The Language of the Heart: A Cultural History of the Recovery Movement from Alcoholics Anonymous to Oprah Winfrey University of North Carolina Press, January 2010 http://www.uncpress.unc.edu/browse/book_detail?title_id=1647 In The Language of the Heart Trysh Travis explores the rich cultural history of Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) and its offshoots and the larger "recovery movement" that has grown out of them. Moving from AA's beginnings in the mid-1930s as a men's fellowship that met in church basements to the thoroughly commercialized addiction treatment centers of today, Travis chronicles the development of recovery and examines its relationship to the broad American tradition of self-help, highlighting the roles that gender, mysticism, and print culture have played in that development. Travis draws on hitherto unexamined materials from AA's archives as well as a variety of popular recovery literatures. Her analysis traces AA's embrace of the concept of addiction as disease, the rise of feminist sobriety discourse and the codependence theories of the 1970s and 80s, and Oprah Winfrey's turn-of-the-millennium popularization of metaphysical healing. What unites these varied cultures of recovery, Travis argues, is their desire to offer spiritual solutions to problems of gender and power. Treating self-help seekers as individuals whose intellectual and aesthetic traditions are worth excavating, The Language of the Heart is the first book to attend to the evolution and variation found within the recovery movement and to treat recovery with the attention to detail that its complexity requires. - - - - Referred to in: Message #5678 Re: the 24 Hour book and spirituality vs. religion From: "trysh travis" (trysh.travis at gmail.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5690. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Travis, Language of the Heart From: Fiona Dodd . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/9/2009 4:51:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Actually disease is mentioned on page 64 of The Big Book. "Resentment is the "number one offender". It destroys more alcoholics than anything else. From it stems all forms of spiritual disease, for we have been not only mentally and physically ill, we have been spiritually sick." And AA number 3, Bill D uses the expression disease. Disease, illness, malady? Semantics. Fiona IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5691. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Travis, Language of the Heart From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/9/2009 5:09:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Laurie, It strikes me that the question of whether alcoholism was or was not referred to as a "disease" during the early AA period is a lot more complicated than you are implying. - - - - See for example one of the best modern sociological studies of Alcoholics Anonymous: http://hindsfoot.org/kas1.html Annette R. Smith, Ph.D., "The Social World of Alcoholics Anonymous: How It Works," with an introduction by Linda Farris Kurtz, DPA, Hindsfoot Foundation Series on Treatment and Recovery (New York: iUniverse, 2007), pp. 74-75. Annette Smith notes that: The word "disease" appears only three times in the A.A. Big Book. It is mentioned first on page 64 in discussing alcoholism, then again at the beginning of the second part of the book in the story of Bill Dotson, the Akron lawyer who was Alcoholics Anonymous Number Three. When Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob visited Dotson in the hospital, they told him he had "a disease," and when he explained his conversion to his wife, he told her he felt that God had cured him "of this terrible disease." (AAWS, 1976:187-188, 191) However, in spite of its avoidance of the specific word "disease," alcoholism is referred to over and over again throughout the book as a "sickness," a "malady," and an "ailment," and alcoholics are characterized as persons who are "sick" or "ill." In the Personal Stories section of the third edition of the Big Book, one of the subtitles is "How Forty-Three Alcoholics Recovered From Their Malady." [NOTE 44] Kurtz (2002:5) states that despite the fact that "A.A. does not promote the disease concept of alcoholism," most members refer to their alcoholism as a disease. However, this can be regarded more as a metaphor than as a literal description in the sense in which the word disease is usually employed in technical medical terminology (Kurtz, 1979:199-202). Use of this metaphor removes the stigma generally attached to alcoholism in society, allowing A.A. participants to see themselves as "sick" rather than "bad" (Conrad and Schneider, 1980), and to assume the "sick role" (Parsons, 1952), so that recovery becomes possible. As will be shown in this chapter, dealing with and finally accepting this concept is crucial in enabling newcomers to move through the four progressive stages of becoming integrated into A.A.'s social world. NOTE 44. Sick, sick person, or sickness on pages 18, 64, 67, 90, 92, 100, 101, 106, 107, 108, 115, 139, 140, 141, 147, 149, 153, 157, and 164. Ill or illness on pages 7, 18, 20, 30, 44, 92, 107, 108, 115, 118, 122, 139, 140, and 142. The words ail or ailment are used on pages 135, 139, 140. Malady appears on pages 23, 64, 92, 138, 139, and 165. (AAWS, 1976) AAWS. 1976. Alcoholics Anonymous. 3rd ed. New York: Alcoholics Anonymous World Services. Orig. pub. 1939. Kurtz, Ernest. 1979. Not-God: A History of Alcoholics Anonymous. Center City, Minn: Hazelden. Kurtz, Ernest. 2002. "Alcoholics Anonymous and the Disease Concept of Alcoholism." Alcoholism Treatment Quarterly 20 (Nos. 3/4): 5-40. Conrad, Peter and Joseph W. Schneider. 1980. Deviance and Medicalization: From Badness to Sickness. St. Louis: C.V. Mosby. Parsons, Talcott and Renee Fox. 1952. "Illness, Therapy and the Modern Urban American Family." The Journal of Social Issues 8(4):31-34. - - - - It is impossible, I believe, to discuss the issue of why alcoholism was regarded as a disease in early AA without a detailed and careful study of Sally Brown and David R. Brown, A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann. We can start with p. xiii, a citation of "Imagine Such a Disease" by the President of the American Medical Society. And then go on to p. 10, where the Brown's describe the basic credo which Marty publicized all over the United States: "Alcoholism is a disease and the alcoholic is a sick person. The alcoholic can be helped and is worth helping. This is a public health problem and therefore a public responsibility." - - - - Or let us note how the issue is discussed by Bill Swegan, the principal spokesman for the wing of early AA which stressed the psychological side of AA rather than the spiritual side. Sgt. Bill Swegan, On the Military Firing Line in the Alcoholism Treatment Program, pp. 13-15 "Alcoholism is not a behavior problem, but a very complex disease" "In the past half century, more has been accomplished to recognize, define, and eliminate the stigma associated with alcoholism than had been brought about in any previous era. At the heart of this change has been the partial removal of the old principle of defining alcoholism by the behavior it produces, and the progress that has been made in solving many of the mysteries surrounding the disease. It is an illness, and this is now recognized by most health agencies, medical treatment facilities, and therapists. Some resistance to the disease concept still remains however among law enforcement people, who often still wish to regard it completely as a behavior problem. And this is also usually true among the members of the alcoholic's family. We must not forget that parents, brothers and sisters, spouses and children, are the ones who are constantly exposed to the negative consequences of the alcoholic behavior. It is difficult indeed for families to think of alcoholism as a disease, when they are the ones who are most immediately subjected to all of the financial and social pressures caused by the alcoholic family member, and they are the ones most likely to suffer physically from the alcoholic's rages and tantrums and automobile accidents .... Because even the major components of behavior differ widely from alcoholic to alcoholic, it is easy for someone who is an alcoholic to pretend to himself that he is not. I certainly did that to myself when I was in my twenties: convincing me that I was in fact an alcoholic was a very difficult process, even though when you read my story, this may seem preposterous. How could I conceivably not have known, quite early on, that I was an alcoholic? It was because people would point at so-and-so, and say that he was an alcoholic, and I seemed to myself to be totally different from that person, in numerous essential ways. Therefore -- I would try to convince myself -- if he is an alcoholic, then I am not, because I am not the same as him. Since alcoholism produces guilt and destroys the alcoholic's feelings of self-worth, this produces even greater barriers to responding in any kind of positive way. If I had to admit that I had become an alcoholic, then I would feel even guiltier than I already did back when I was in my twenties (which was overwhelm- ingly great), and my almost totally-demolished sense of self-worth would have been even further destroyed. So I fought any attempt by others to try to convince me that I had a problem with drinking. We must continue working to educate people about the true nature of alcoholism. It is not a behavior problem, and the kind of guilt I felt about my compulsive drinking was inappropriate. I had to do something about it, and I had to do it before I was totally destroyed by it. But becoming ill is not a matter for which one should feel guilt, nor is contracting an illness something which should shatter one's sense of self-worth. We do not blame sick people in a civilized society, but help them to get well again. And if I myself fall prey to some treatable disease, from which I could recover by taking appropriate steps, the intelligent response is not to feel that I have become worthless, but to take those steps which I must take to bring about my recovery." - - - - If you want to talk about what Jellinek believed and said, you have to ask "Jellinek when?" because he changed his position over a period of time. But he is most often remembered for his 1960 book which was entitled "The Disease Concept of Alcoholism." And Jellinek also means his AA disciples, like Searcy Whaley in Dallas, Texas, to whom Bill W. sent Ebby to see if Searcy could get him sober. - - - - What I'm trying to say here is, that if you want to discuss the question of whether or not alcoholism is properly to be regarded as a "disease" or an "illness" or a "malady" (or as something else entirely), this is perfectly all right. And we can talk about our own theories about what is "good AA" and what is "bad AA." But once you start talking about "what the Big Book says" and "what early AA people believed," you have to go back and actually read the early documents, and accurately report what those folks actually said on that subject. Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5692. . . . . . . . . . . . the 24 Hour book and spirituality vs. religion From: trysh travis . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/9/2009 1:12:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Responding to Art's comment about the impact that "the acceptance of the 24 Hour book would have had on the more mundane matter of Bill W's royalty agreement," I agree that this was a consideration for the Conference, and I think comparing the responses Bill (and the delegates, and the New York office generally) had to *24 Hours* and to *The Little Red Book* is key. From my reading of the correspondence, I'd say that in both cases, there were concerns about whether the "spirituality" on offer in the books was maybe a little too Christian for comfort, combined with anxieties about how the books' popularity might cut into the revenue generated by Big Book sales and necessary to keep the work of the GSO alive. Add to this the steady stream of letters from people who wanted to publish their own guides to AA-- often 12-Step ideas mingled in with suggestions about diet, exercise, or the power of positive thinking-- and you get an interlocking set of problems that must've assumed nightmarish proportions. What impresses me most about this history is the constant willingness to search for a middle ground for consensus decision-making. "Live and let live" is a lesson that a lot of big organizations today could benefit from adopting as their motto! Trysh T. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5693. . . . . . . . . . . . Early black AA members From: azmikefitz . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/7/2009 10:53:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "hesofine2day" wrote: > > Does anyone know the identity of the first > black woman in AA? I am in the process of having and old audio library digitized, Several of the talks that I have found are labeled "colored group", one group was called group #43 and the panel discusses the steps. Dated 1959. I'll look for earlier ones. Mike F. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5694. . . . . . . . . . . . Is there anyone with 60 yrs or more of sobriety still alive? From: Shane . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/13/2009 12:36:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I live in Upland, California, which is 40 miles east of Los Angeles. On June 27,2009 we are having a birthday party for Dick C. of Ontario, Ca. He is 95 yrs old and has 60 yrs of sobriety. We were told that he is the oldest living member of AA with 60 yrs of sobriety. Does anyone know of any other AA member still living who is that old with 60 yrs or more of sobriety??? His two sons, and the local AA community would like to know. Shane P. Area 5 Archivist IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5695. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: illness vs. disease From: marionoredstone . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/9/2009 8:46:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ADDITIONAL COMMENTS: From (MarionORedstone at aol.com) Footnotes from my upcoming book Inside these Rooms From E. Kurtz, PhD, Monograph Alcoholics Anonymous and the Disease Concept of Alcoholism (2000) In 1938, while preparing the manuscript of the A.A. Big Book, Bill Wilson asked Dr. Bob Smith (a proctologist) about the accuracy of referring to alcoholism as a disease or one of its synonyms. Bob's reply, scribbled in a large hand on a small sheet of his letterhead, read: "Have to use disease -- sick -- only way to get across hopelessness," the final word doubly underlined and written in even larger letters. (Smith in Akron to Wilson) The answer William Griffith Wilson gave when specifically asked about alcoholism as disease after he had addressed the annual meeting of the National Catholic Clergy Conference of Alcoholism in 1961: âWe have never called alcoholism a disease because, technically speaking, it is not a disease entity. For example, there is no such thing as heart disease. Instead there are many separate heart ailments, or combinations of them. It is something like that with alcoholism. Therefore we did not wish to get in wrong with the medical profession by pronouncing alcoholism a disease entity. Therefore we always called it an illness, or a malady --â“ far safer term for us to use.â In A.A.âs pamphlet, 44 Questions, the answer to the question What is Alcoholism? It is said: There are many different ideas about what alcoholism really is. The explanation that seems to make sense to most A.A. members is that alcoholism is an illness, a progressive illness, which can never be cured but which, like some other illnesses, can be arrested. Going one step further, many A.A.s feel that the illness represents the combination of a physical sensitivity to alcohol and a mental obsession with drinking, which, regardless of consequences, cannot be broken by will power alone. - - - - From GFC: what does the Big Book actually say? 3 TIMES: The word "disease" appears three times in the A.A. Big Book. It is said explicitly (in the first instance) or implied by context (in the other two usages) that alcoholism is a "spiritual disease." It is mentioned first on page 64 in discussing alcoholism: "Resentment is the 'number one' offender. It destroys more alcoholics than anything else. From it stem all forms of spiritual disease, for we have been not only mentally and physically ill, we have been spiritually sick. When the spiritual malady is overcome, we straighten out mentally and physically." Note that the words disease, ill, sick, and malady are treated by Bill Wilson here as exact synonyms. All four words meant exactly the same thing in the Big Book when it was published in 1939. Then again at the beginning of the second part of the book in the story of Bill Dotson, the Akron lawyer who was Alcoholics Anonymous Number Three, the word disease is also used. When Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob visited Dotson in the hospital, they told him he had "a disease," and when he explained his spiritual conversion to his wife, he told her he felt that God had cured him "of this terrible disease." So the word disease may only appear 3 times in the Big Book, but in each instance, it was a vitally important time, where Bill Wilson was talking about the very heart and core of the AA program. 19 TIMES: Sick, sick person, or sickness on pages 18, 64, 67, 90, 92, 100, 101, 106, 107, 108, 115, 139, 140, 141, 147, 149, 153, 157, and 164. 14 TIMES: Ill or illness on pages 7, 18, 20, 30, 44, 92, 107, 108, 115, 118, 122, 139, 140, and 142. ONLY 6 TIMES: Malady appears on pages 23, 64, 92, 138, 139, and 165. ONLY 3 TIMES: The words ail or ailment are used on pages 135, 139, 140. - - - - From: Laurie Andrews (jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com) Friends, I don't recall using the phrase "what early AA people believed"; I quoted Bill W and the Big Book. Bill cautioned against describing alcoholism as a disease entity and went so far as to say AA didn't use the term, preferring malady, sickness etc. Disease is only mentioned once in the first part of the book, where the program is outlined; here the reference is to "spiritual" disease, and I'm not sure how a physician would be qualified to diagnose that condition. Bill D mentions disease in the stories section and others might do in later editions, but that's their personal opinion, not AA "policy". I've read "Mrs Marty Mann: the first lady of Alcoholics Anonymous"; she had own agenda. Seems to me Glenn makes the same error as the Grapevine in conflating disease with illness (malady, ailment etc). They are not the same; I can be ill or sick but not necessarily have a disease. That many AA's lazily use the term disease to describe their (and my!) condition doesn't make it right. Ringwald (op cit) writes: "William Miller and Ernest Kurtz, two respected researchers and observers, compiled various outside conceptions of alcoholism mistakenly attributed to Alcoholics Anonymous. AA literature, they write, does not assert that there is only one form of alcoholism or only one way to recover; that alcoholics are responsible for their condition; that moderate drinking is impossible for every problem drinker; that alcoholics suffer from denial and should be bullied into treatment; or that alcoholism is purely a physical or hereditary disorder. AA's core beliefs do, however, resonate with or resemble those of other fields from which it has often borrowed or which it has influenced." In meeting after meeting I hear AA's making these and other claims; these opinions are also often voiced at public information gatherings by those who simply haven't studied the sources. Till the shadows flee away, laurie A. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5696. . . . . . . . . . . . Change to foreword, 4th ed. of Big Book From: buckjohnson41686 . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/8/2009 2:28:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Foreward to 4th edition was changed, page xxiv, line 10. First printing has "Fundamentally, though, the difference between an electronic meeting and the home group around the corner is only one of format." This was deleted, not sure which printing. - - - - Message #5670 from "Charlie Parker" (charlieparker at prodigy.net) What were the changes to Dr Bob's Nightmare and which foreword was changed?? Charlie Parker - - - - Original Message #5668 From: momaria33772 Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 I'd like to share one other thought I have had every time anyone has brought up publishing of any materials like these. Would the people who love and use the 24 Hour book be prepared to have it changed at some future Delegate Conference based on some objection that someone in my home group had and got submitted to the Conference Agenda? For those who don't believe that could happen, I would point out that both the fourth edition versions of the Foreword and Dr. Bob's Nightmare have been changed based on submissions by members and groups in the US and Canada. I could easily see today's version of the 24 Hour Book being radically different from the one originally published. Jim H. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5697. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: profits from 24 Hour Book sent to New York AA From: grault . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/10/2009 12:35:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII No 7th Tradition problem: If the money contributed to the GSO came from an AA member or an AA group, it wouldn't matter how the donor(s) earned the money (i.e., whether through selling books, practicing law, winning the lottery, etc.) --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Laurie Andrews wrote: > > Since the 24 Hour book (like the Bible!) > is not Conference-approved, how did sending > profits from its sale to GSO (between 1948 > and 1954, when it was being printed under > the sponsorship of the Daytona Beach AA > Group) square with Tradition Seven? > > Laurie A. > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5698. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: the 24 Hour book and spirituality vs. religion From: Lynn Sawyer . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/9/2009 3:04:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ADDITIONAL COMMENTS: From: Lynn Sawyer (sawyer7952 at yahoo.com) For our information, 'Bill's Story' refers to Christ on pg. 11: "To Christ I conceded the certainty of a great man, not too closely followed by those who claimed Him. His moral teaching -- most excellent. For myself, I had adopted those parts which seemed convenient and not too difficult; the rest I disregarded." Lynn S Sacramento, California - - - - From: Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com) We quote Bill W to support the religious or so called spiritual aspect of AA, but ignore Bill W's statements, " is not a religious organization. There is no dogma. The one Theological proposition is a power greater than one's self. Even that concept is forced on no one." "Additionally, he said, AA is a benign anarchy and democracy." As far as spirituality is concerned, it is not mine to decide if I am spiritual or not. But I can try not to be unspiritual, and hope I make the right guesses. - - - - From: "J. Lobdell" (jlobdell54 at hotmail.com) But A. J. Russell was a leading OG writer and known as such (FOR SINNERS ONLY which is a kind of model for the revelations of GOD CALLING), and GOD CALLING was unquestionably an OG book in Bill's mind (and I think the public mind) -- and the doctrine of private revelation was recognizably an OG doctrine. And of course, tho' God Calling didn't have the four A's and the five C's, Rich Walker's little black book did, so was twice or thrice an OG book. At least that's my interpretation of the reasons behind the turn-down. Not that the little black book was too religious but that it was too Oxford Group "religious" -- I think. - - - - From: Tom Hickcox (cometkazie1 at cox.net) I would like to note that what is not said is often more interesting than what is said, I can imagine the storm that could have erupted had religiosity been given as the reason for turning down the 24 Hour Book. In my opinion they took the easier, softer way and followed that by rejecting the Little Red Book, which to me, at least, has much less religious imagery, for the same reason. I would also note that we are looking at the 24 Hour Book with 21st century eyes. The criteria for what may be considered religious today have shifted from what they were fifty-five years ago. I use Emmet Fox's _Around the Year with Emmet Fox_ in my daily meditations. To me it is less religious than _The Upper Room_ was, but more religious than the 24 Hour Book. Post-modernism has changed the ball game. My point is that for its time the 24 Hour Book was not very religious, but applying today's standards it is more so. Tommy H in Baton Rouge IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5699. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Publishing the 24 Hour book and Little Red Book (and Harper publishers) From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/11/2009 10:11:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Glenn The written evidence on Harper & Brothers role in AA publishing (for both the 12&12 and AA Comes of Age) points to them simply being the channel for releasing books to the public through commercial outlets and not as an additional source of income. In fact the board of trustees declined to accept royalty payments from Harpers (reported to the 1954 Conference). The 1951 Conference raised Bill W's royalties from 10% to 15%. The 1952 Conference approved a large list of publishing projects suggested by a committee of board of trustees for future publications and approved six (6) publishing projects proposed by Bill and then added ten (10) publishing projects proposed by the Delegates themselves. These kind of actions do not sustain the notion of any kind of cash crunch for publishing in the 1950s. From what I can glean from final Conference reports, it appears that Harper's & Brothers was brought in primarily to be the channel of distribution of books to non-AAs through commercial channels (the key link to them as a distribution channel was Eugene Exman of pre-publication Big Book fame). The publishing relationship between AA and Harpers lasted well into the 1970s. It's a bit odd that the Conference declined to accept publication rights to "24 Hours a Day" because, approximately two decades later there was actually a case where a book wwas sold through GSO that was not published by AA and whose independent authorship was clearly acknowledged. Harper was involved in this as well. It involved the book "Bill W" by Robert Thompsen. It was sold through GSO from 1971-1976 at which point the Conference stopped it. That book was distributed through Harper (Harper & Row). Back to the notion of whether there was any kind of cash crunch. The final report of the 1953 Conference states:"After long and careful consideration, and following a poll of Conference members, the Trustees approved the publishing firm of Harper & Bros. as distributors of Bill's new book to non-A.A. outlets. The Society retains full ownership of the copyright and remains the actual publisher. The new arrangement will benefit the movement by getting increased attention for a basic document on fundamental principles of the Society, and through certain printing and distribution economies. Within ten days after announcement of the new book had been sent to the groups, orders for nearly 6,000 copies had been received at General Service Headquarters. In 1954, the board of trustees reported to the Conference that it "Decided not to accept, a royalty of $.25 per copy on sales of a book on The Twelve Steps, which had been offered by the publishers." The 1954 PI Conference Committee recommended: "That, in connection with publication of Bill's book "A.A. Comes of Age" we augment Harper's review list, and that no aggressive radio or television publicity efforts for the book be made." Finally, the 1976 Conference recommended: "That G.S.O. discontinue distribution of the "Bill W." book [the biography published by Harper & Row], dispose of the present supply in the most feasible manner, and notify the Fellowship through Box 4-5-9 when the "Bill W." book is no longer available through G.S.O. Sense of the meeting was taken that the deletion of the listing in the catalog should be handled by overprinting or other method as G.S.O. sees fit." If this doesn't alter your viewpoint then I surrender. Cheers Arthur IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5700. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Publishing the 24 Hour book (and comments on Conferences) From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/12/2009 12:23:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There are numerous errors in the posting about Conferences and advisory actions in Message #5682 from Jim H. (jhoffma6 at tampabay.rr.com). Comments on this are embedded in the original message: =================================== Hi Charlie, Each year Delegates are assigned to various committees within the Conference. Those committees are comprised of Delegates, Trustees and the GSO Staff. =================================== [Comments on the above]: There are Trustees Committees and there are Conference Committees. Trustees Committees meet four (4) times a year. Conference Committees meet one time each year at the Conference and consist of Delegates (only) with a member of the GSO staff acting as a non-voting committee Secretary. There is almost (but not quite) a one-for-one correspondence between the Trustees Committees and the Conference Committees each of which is explained in the Service Manual. =================================== When the 4th Edition was being prepared, it was decided to keep working copies down to as few people as possible. There were fears that if everyone reviewed the work in process some stories might get out and our Copyright might get compromised. Therefore the Literature Committee members were the ones who saw the final copy and sent a recommendation to approve it to the full Conference. The 2001 Conference approved and it was sent to publication. I was fortunate to know the Delegate from my Area who was on that literature Committee and I know that she took her responsibility very seriously and did the very best she could in the review and approval process. =================================== [Comments on the above]: The bit about copyrights being compromised if the stories got out is bogus. However, it was stated by AAWS/GSO (who also managed to lose the copyrights for the 1st/2nd edition Big Books as well as the Twelve Concepts in 2007). The 1999 Conference approved a Conference Literature Committee recommendation that: "Based on precedent in regard to previous editions of Alcoholics Anonymous, the A.A. history book, and Daily Reflections, any draft copy of the Fourth Edition of Alcoholics Anonymous be considered a work-in-progress, and as such, is confidential; the operating principle being that any story material brought forward to the Conference Literature Committee will be done on a "for-their-eyes-only" basis adhering to the principle of the "right of decision," and not brought forward for any other general distribution until publication." =================================== Once the book came out, the fellowship found some things they didn't like. In 2002, some members objected to the sentence in the Forward to the Fourth Edition that said "Fundamentally, though, the differnce between an electronic meeting and the home group around the corner is only one of format". Many of our members disagreed with this assesment. The Literature Committee recommended that the sentence be deleted. The 2002 Conference agreed and the Forward was changed. =================================== [Comments on the above]: It went well beyond "some members" objecting and raised quite a wide-spread negative reaction. The recommendation of the 2002 Conference Literature Committee stated "Although the committee acknowledged the importance of electronic meetings to some A.A. members, the sentence 'Fundamentally, though, the difference between an electronic meeting and the home group around the corner is only one of format' in the last paragraph of the Foreword to the Fourth Edition, be deleted in future printings of the Big Book, Alcoholics Anonymous." =================================== One of the goals for the Fourth Edition was to keep it roughly the same size while introducing new stories to help new people relate. In the process, some existing stories were edited and punctuation was updated. As people read the book, some noticed the differences in their favorite stories. At the 2003 Conference, the Literature Committee recommended against restoring "The Housewife Who Drank At Home", Me, An Alcoholic?", "Another Chance", and "Freedom From Bondage" to the Third Edition version. =================================== [Comments on the above]: The 2003 Conference Literature Committee did not recommend against restoring the story changes. It "agreed to take no action." In Conference Committee protocol this means that the committee discussed the item but did not forward it to the Conference floor for a vote. =================================== There had been an earlier Conference Advisory Action saing that Dr. Bob's story should not be changed without written permission of 3/4 of all registered groups. The punctuation in "Dr. Bob's Nightmare" had been updated from the Third Edition version. Many of us thought that was within the spirit of that Advisory Action since it did not change the content and since that kind of editing had occurred in earlier editions. Some members submitted an Agenda item because they thought that even minor changes violated the previous Advisory Action and that no Conference had approved the specific changes. =================================== [Comments on the above]: There is no such Conference advisory action regarding the need for permission of 3/4 of the registered groups to change Dr Bob's Story (or the Big Book or any other book). The 1995 Conference Literature Committee recommended that: "The first 164 pages of the Big Book, Alcoholics Anonymous, the Preface, the Forewords, 'The Doctor's Opinion,' 'Doctor Bob's Nightmare' and the Appendices remain as is." A floor action was submitted to the 1996 Conference to: "Propose a Conference resolution that the 46th General Service Conference recommend to the Fellowship of A.A.s of the world that the first 164 pages of the Big Book, Alcoholics Anonymous, the Preface, the Forewards (sic), "The Doctor's Opinion," "Doctor Bob's Nightmare" and the Appendices be unchanged without approval of three quarters of groups of the world." It did not result in an advisory action. The 1997 Trustees Committee on Literature also reviewed the request and took no action. Note: the "3/4 of the registered groups permission" applies to the Steps, Traditions and Article 12 of the Permanent Conference Charter (i.e. the 6 "Warranties" which are also Concept 12) per advisory action of the 1976 Conference (which also approved the 3rd edition Big Book). =================================== At the 2004 Conference, the Literature Committee recommended against restoring the punctuation in "Dr. Bob's Nightmare" to that of the Third Edition. When this recommendation came to the Conference, A Floor Action was submitted and the full Conference overrode the Literature Committee. When our Delegate gave his Conference report he told us that he was prepared to vote against the change in accordance with the wishes of many of us in the area. He finally voted for the Floor Action because he saw that it was an issue that was dividing AA and while he had an obligation to our Area, he had a bigger obligation to AA as a whole. I was never so proud of someone who disagreed with me as I was that day. =================================== [Comments on the above]: The 2003 Conference Literature Committee recommended that the punctuation be restored but it failed to produce a Conference advisory. The 2004 Conference Literature Committee did not recommend against restoring the punctuation changes. It "agreed to take no action." Again, this means that the committee discussed the item but did not forward it to the Conference floor for a vote. It was also consistent with the action of the 2003 Conference. A floor action was submitted at the 2004 Conference that "The punctuation in 'Dr. Bob's Nightmare' in the Fourth Edition be restored as it appears in the Third Edition of the Big Book, Alcoholics Anonymous." It was approved. The Conferences from 1995-2001, in my judgment, contributed greatly to the confusion on the punctuation changes in Dr Bob's Story. Each Conference felt compelled to offer its own advisory action on the portions of the Big Book to be left "as is." They were not consistent. The 1999 Conference passed an advisory action that "The Publications Department of the General Service Office maintain the following specific editorial responsibilities regarding the Fourth Edition Big Book Project: Editorial 'fine tuning' such as footnotes, punctuation, capitalization, spelling, updating, jacket materials, page numbers, etc. ..." The 2001 Conference passed an advisory action that "The Fourth Edition of the Big Book, Alcoholics Anonymous, be approved keeping in mind the 1995 Conference Advisory Action which reads, "The first 164 pages of the Big Book, Alcoholics Anonymous, the Preface, the Forewords, 'The Doctor's Opinion,''Doctor Bob's Nightmare' and the Appendices remain as is' and keeping in mind the 1999 Conference Action which reads, 'The Publications Department of the General Service Office maintain the following specific editorial responsibilities regarding the Fourth Edition Big Book Project: Editorial 'fine tuning' such as footnotes, punctuation, capitalization, spelling, updating, jacket materials, page numbers, etc. ..." This was the Conference that the made the 4th edition Big Book "Conference-approved" and again allowed for editorial "fine-tuning" regarding punctuation among other things. * * * * * * I personally find little to be proud of in the series of actions on the part of the Conferences from 1995-2004 on the matter of the 4th edition Big Book, although they meant well on the matter. In determining whether punctuation changes to Dr Bob's story were appropriate or not, seems to depend on which Conference advisory action you choose. The final one on the matter (from the 2001 Conference which approved the 4th edition) allowed for punctuation changes to be made. Perhaps only in AA would a matter so predominant and crucial as the placement of commas, periods and semi-colons, rise to the level of such supreme and sanctimonious consideration. However, it also makes for great theater (Rule # 62). While on the soap box, I'd further suggest that the two main contributing factors to the theater are: (1) AA members who view the Big Book as some sort of inviolable Scripture (i.e. people who scrutinize it punctuation mark by punctuation mark as if somehow it changes the meaning of the content), and (2) the all-too-human tendency of many Delegates to want to leave behind some legacy advisory action that highlights their 2-year term of office. Cheers Arthur S IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5701. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Is there anyone with 60 yrs or more of sobriety still alive? From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/13/2009 10:08:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII SEVERAL POSSIBILITIES: From: Shakey1aa@aol.com (Shakey1aa at aol.com) Clyde B. of Bucks county Pennsylvania got sober in 1946 and has not had a drink since. He has 62 or 63 years. He volunteers daily at the Livengrin rehab. See more about him at http://freemancarpenter.com/About_Freeman.html Shakey Mike Gwirtz Phila Pa USA. - - - - "Mary Latowski" (mplatowski at gmail.com) Paul Martin of Riverside Illinois Also from: "M.J. Johnson" I believe Paul M. of Chicago, IL just celebrated 61 years in September 2008. - - - - From: Tom White (tomwhite at cableone.net) Dear Shane: Yes, I know of an AA with more than 60 years of sobriety: I believe he sobered up in 1946, when he was in the first half of his 20's, and has stayed sober since. He is now 87. He is currently in hospital. I intend to call him and let him know of your inquiry. Tom W. Odessa, TX - - - - From: "Elisabeth" (dunnelisabeth at comcast.net) Yes, I know of one we have in Vegas. His name is Steve P. and he has 62 years and is from Cleveland, Ohio. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5702. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: profits from 24 Hour Book sent to New York AA From: firsthings1st . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/10/2009 7:35:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Laurie Andrews wrote: > > Since the 24 Hour book (like the Bible!) > is not Conference-approved, how did sending > profits from its sale to GSO (between 1948 > and 1954, when it was being printed under > the sponsorship of the Daytona Beach AA > Group) square with Tradition Seven? > > Laurie A. > - - - - This was a group conscience decision by the Daytona Beach Group. However it was not sent directly as such. Rich W. donated the profits from the book to his home group. Months later, around Christmas time, a letter came to every AA group that GSO needed more donations. This letter from GSO was signed by Bill W. and was very convincing of that fact. The group decided they had way over their prudent reserve and sent most of what they had to GSO. This information is from correspondence from NY office,the orginal printer, Hazelden and treasurers reports from the Daytona Beach Group. These papers may be seen at the archives in the Daytona Beach Intergroup office. David W. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5703. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Change to foreword, 4th ed. of Big Book From: rick tompkins . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/13/2009 8:10:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The change to the Foreword was made for the Seventh Printing, which followed in about eighteen months from the First Printing and a Floor Action / Advisory Action by the 2002 General Service Conference. Printings may have been anywhere between 100,000 for the First, through 10-20,000 for each following press run and it tool a while to put the Advisory Action into effect. Some of the bindings in the First Printing went haywire with stitched sections upside down, doubled sections, missing sections, etc. and a few reports made it to my Area meeting 'Open Mike Time.' At least one of the mis-printed books made it into my Area's Archives. The punctuation change to "Dr. Bob's Nightmare" was initially made by an unnamed GSO Staff (not the Literature Committee Desk but one of a few editorial staff personnel) and passed through the General Service Board with little fanfare or announcement, until the 2003 Conference voted to restore the original verbatim syntax. My dates are as correct as I can recall without digging further, but the Foreword 'flack' was a heated Floor discussion bringing an immediate change to the Foreword's focus. And, all in the spirit of Tradition 2 and a "loving God expressing Himself through our Group conscience" that was right (appropriate) and the voting worked perfectly. All were happy with the Foreword's textual change and I haven't heard anyone dispute the change since 2002 ... we are a self-correcting Fellowship, aren't we? When it comes down to carrying the message to other alcoholics, very little can replace a face-to-face meeting effectiveness. Just ask a newcomer! Rick, Illinois - - - - From: buckjohnson41686 Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 1:28 AM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: Change to foreword, 4th ed. of Big Book Foreward to 4th edition was changed, page xxiv, line 10. First printing has "Fundamentally, though, the difference between an electronic meeting and the home group around the corner is only one of format." This was deleted, not sure which printing. - - - - Message #5670 from "Charlie Parker" > (charlieparker at prodigy.net) What were the changes to Dr Bob's Nightmare and which foreword was changed?? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5704. . . . . . . . . . . . Themes for General Service Conference From: Arun Shelar . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/15/2009 4:57:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi, Can anybody tell me where I can get the list of Themes for General Service Conferences from the beginning till the present date? Arun IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5705. . . . . . . . . . . . Roland Hazard From: Administrator . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/14/2009 6:49:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I am a friend of Bill W. My profession has been printing for the past 53 years and just recently the local _Tularosa Basin Historical Society_ brought me a little project to print for them that AA History Buffs should be interested in. The Title is: "Roland Hazard and the La Luz Pottery" This is a small historical accounting of the time that Roland Hazard spent here in New Mexico. Hazard's brief time spent here in Otero County, NM was flamboyant and memorable by the many natives of the area at the time. I have heard that there is a publication coming out on the life and times of Roland Hazard and that there is a void of the years 1928-30 or so when he was here. World War I got going and Roland got drunk so Clarence Agnew, Roland's Manager put him on the train to New York and he never returned. This publication will be available through the Society soon. Ted Harrington IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5706. . . . . . . . . . . . The book called The God Angle From: chiphxsf . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/14/2009 6:15:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII My sponsor's sponsor came into a copy of "The God Angle" in his early sobriety. He had always favored it and thought it should be in circulation, again. I have made numerous attempts to contact Mrs. T. W. Robinson, Alexandria, VA who had the copyright to the volume. I have also attempted to contact the central and archive's offices and e-mail addresses of the Virginia area, to no avail, to find the copyright holder(s) of the book. If anyone has any information concerning this book, the whereabouts of any surving family of the author, Robbie Robinson, the author's date of birth and death or the original date of the book's publishing and when it was written, please contact me at: Mike Kane michaelvkane@hotmail.com (michaelvkane at hotmail.com) 480-287-0091 Thank you! mike IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5707. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Is there anyone with 60 yrs or more of sobriety still alive? From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/14/2009 6:41:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I had thought the original question was about AAs with 60 years who were 95 or older, which I cannot answer, so did not try. Clyde B. (June 20 1946) is around 88 (maybe 89); Chet H of Hummelstown PA, who regularly speaks at our History & Archives Gathering, has a DLD of April 4 1949: he is just about to turn 86. Chet got sober in Harrisburg PA and has been sober here sixty years, still living within ten miles or so of Harrisburg. Clyde B. was born in Canada, got sober in Boston, and came to Central PA in the early 1970s. He was at the Eastern PA General Service Convention/Assembly in the Poconos in November 2008, but I haven't been able to get him to the History & Archives Gathering yet. - - - - From: Bernard Wood (bern-donna at earthlink.net) Carl Demorey got sober in Muskegon, MI in December 1947. He went to the first convention in Cleveland in 1950. Met Bill W. there. His story is posted here. I believe he is about 90, living in assisted living here in Largo, Florida - - - - From: Forrest Jackson (forrestdalejackson at yahoo.com) My Grandsponser Easy E. from Montgomery, AL passed away last year 2 months shy of his 66th AA birthday. As they only make the medallions up to 60 years, I'd have to get one without the numerals on it and sand the center down, then take it in to an engraver to put the correct number in.I don't believe anyone had ever achieved this milestone (65 years). IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5708. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The book called The God Angle From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/15/2009 7:15:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII For more about the book (including a month's worth of readings) see this site: http://www.aabibliography.com/the_god_angle_alcoholics_book.htm Yours in Service, Shakey Mike Gwirtz Phila, Pa. USA Hope to see you all at the NAW IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5709. . . . . . . . . . . . Stepping Stones 2009 Newsletter From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/17/2009 9:28:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII http://www.steppingstones.org/Stepping_Stones_Newsletter_2009.pdf IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5710. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Themes for General Service Conference From: Charles Knapp . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/16/2009 3:59:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII FROM CHARLES K. AND ARTHUR S. From: Charles Knapp (cpknapp at yahoo.com) Hello, In Area 9 a list of past themes for the Conference is given out each year and GSRs are ask to come up with ideas for the next years theme. Here is a list I found at Area 54 website. 1966 was the first year a theme was used. This list can also be gotten from your Delegate or GSO. 1966- Principles and Responsibility 1967- Sponsorship--The Hand of A.A. 1968- Unity Vital to AA Survival, Growth 1969- Group Conscience Guides AA 1970- Service- The Heart of AA 1971- Communication; Key to AA Growth 1972- Our Primary Purpose 1973- Responsibility-Our Expression of Gratitude 1974- Understanding and Cooperation-Inside and Outside AA 1975- Unity Through Love and Service 1976- Sponsorship-Our Privilege and Responsibility 1977- The AA Group-Where it Begins 1978- The Member and the Group-Recovery Through Service 1979- The Legacies; Our Heritage and My Responsibility 1980- Participation: The Key to Recovery 1981- AA Takes its Inventory 1982- The Traditions- Our Way of Unity 1983- Anonymity- Our Spiritual Foundation 1984- Gratitude-The Language of the Heart 1985- Golden Moments of Reflection 1986- AA's Future-Our Responsibility 1987- The Seventh Tradition-A Turning Point 1988- Singleness of Purpose-Key to Unity 1989- Anonymity-Living Our Traditions 1990- The Home Group-Our Responsibility and Link to AA's Future 1991- Sponsorship: Gratitude in Action 1992- The AA Message in a Changing World 1993- AA Takes its Inventory-The General Service Conference Structure 1994- Spirit of Sacrifice 1995- Pass It On - Our Three Legacies 1996- Preserving Our Fellowship-Our Challenge 1997- Spirituality-Our Foundation 1998- Our Twelfth Step Work 1999- Moving Forward; Unity Through Humility 2000- Trusting our Future to AA Principles 2001- Love and Service 2002- Sharing the Steps, Traditions and Concepts 2003- Living A.A.'s Principles Through Sponsorship 2004- Our Singleness of Purpose - the Cornerstone of AA 2005- Basics of Our Home Group- Recovery, Unity, Service 2006- Sponsorship, Service, and Self-Support In a Changing World 2007- A.A.'s 12th Step Responsibility - Are We Going to Any Length? 2008- Communication & Participation The key to Unity & Self-Support 2009- Our Commitment to Carry A.A.'s Message - Enthusiasm and Gratitude in Action Hope this helps Charles from California (soon to be Charles from Wisconsin) - - - - From: "Arthur S" (ArtSheehan at msn.com) Hi Arun Conferences did not collectively predefine specific themes prior to 1966. However, the 1951-65 Conferences did have dominant or keynote topics. ======================================== 1951-65 Inferred or later defined themes ======================================== 1951 - Not to Govern - But to Serve 1952 - It's a Question of Lives that May Be Lost if AA Does Not Survive 1953 - The Milestones Ahead 1954 - The Lost Commandment, the Dictionary and AA 1955 - The Paradoxes of AA 1956 - Petition, Appeal, Participation and Decision 1957 - The Need for Authority Equal to Responsibility 1958 - Promise and Progress 1959 - Confidence, Absence of Fear of Future 1960 - Need for Improved Internal and External Communications 1961 - Determination to Work and Grow Together, and With Others 1962 - Our Primary Purpose and Deep Devotion to the Concept of Unity 1963 - Emphasis was on Function rather than Structure 1964 - Practice These Principles 1965 - Responsibility to Those We Serve ================================================= 1966 - First Conference to have a predefined theme ================================================== 1966 - Principles and Responsibility 1967 - Sponsorship - The Hand of AA 1968 - Unity Vital to AA Survival, Growth 1969 - Group Conscience Guides AA 1970 - Service - The Heart of AA 1971 - Communication: Key to AA Growth 1972 - Our Primary Purpose 1973 - Responsibility - Our Expression of Gratitude 1974 - Understanding and Cooperation - Inside and Outside AA 1975 - Unity Through Love and Service 1976 - Sponsorship - Our Privilege and Responsibility 1977 - The AA Group - Where it Begins 1978 - The Member and the Group - Recovery Through Service 1979 - The Legacies: Our Heritage and Responsibility 1980 - Participation: The Key to Recovery 1981 - AA Takes Its Inventory 1982 - The Traditions - Our Way of Unity 1983 - Anonymity - Our Spiritual Foundation 1984 - Gratitude - The Language of the Heart 1985 - Golden Moments of Reflection 1986 - AA's Future - Our Responsibility 1987 - The Seventh Tradition - A Turning Point 1988 - Singleness of Purpose - Key to Unity 1989 - Anonymity - Living Our Traditions 1990 - The Home Group - Our Responsibility and Link to AA's Future 1991 - Sponsorship: Gratitude in Action 1992 - The AA Message in a Changing World 1993 - AA Takes Its Inventory - The General Service Conference Structure 1994 - Spirit of Sacrifice 1995 - Pass It On - Our Three Legacies 1996 - Preserving Our Fellowship - Our Challenge 1997 - Spirituality - Our Foundation 1998 - Our Twelfth Step Work 1999 - Moving Forward: Unity Through Humility 2000 - Trusting Our Future to AA Principles 2001 - Love and Service 2002 - Sharing the Steps, Traditions and Concepts 2003 - Living AA's Principles Through Sponsorship 2004 - Our Singleness of Purpose - the Cornerstone of AA 2005 - Basics of Our Home Group - Recovery, Unity and Service 2006 - Sponsorship, Service and Self-Support in a Changing World 2007 - Our 12th Step Responsibility - Are We going to Any Length? 2008 - Communication and Participation - the Key to Unity and Self-Support 2009 - Our Commitment to Carry AA's Message - Enthusiasm and Gratitude in Action Cheers Arthur IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5711. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Roland Hazard / Rowland Hazard From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/15/2009 7:07:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII His name is spelled "Rowland" - Cheers - Arthur IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5712. . . . . . . . . . . . The Little Red Book From: dave_landuyt . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/15/2009 6:01:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A previous post by Tommy H. states "There were a number of changes made to the LRB in the first half-dozen printings from 1946-1950". Could Tommy, or anyone with the knowledge of these changes, post some examples? If anyone has website(s) that show or explain these changes, that would also be appreciated. Thanks to one and all Dave L. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5713. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The Little Red Book From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/18/2009 3:25:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The http://hindsfoot.org/ed02.html website gives some examples of changes made to The Little Red Book between the 1946 edition and the 1949 edition. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5714. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr. Silkworth Birthday Celebration From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/17/2009 12:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII You are cordially invited to the Sixth Annual Dr. Silkworth Birthday Celebration! Saturday, July 18, 2009 at 3:00PM (no rain date this year). At his gravesite in Glenwood Cemetery, Route 71 (Monmouth Rd.), West Long Branch, New Jersey. Speakers: Barbara Silkworth (a family member) and Bill S. (currently writing a book about the first edition AA Big Book). PLEASE BE SURE TO BRING A LAWN CHAIR OR SOMETHING TO SIT ON. If you have any questions please call Barefoot Bill at 201-232-8749 (cell). Directions: Take the Garden State Parkway (north or south) to Exit 105 (Route 36), continue on Route 36 approximately 3 miles through 5 traffic lights (passing Monmouth Mall, two more shopping plazas, and several automobile dealerships). Watch for green road signs stating “Route 71 South, West Long Branch and Asbury Park” (this is just before the sixth light). Take this turnoff to the right, past Carriage Square and bear right onto Route 71 (Monmouth Road). Glenwood Cemetery appears very quickly on the left (the entrance is marked by two stone pillars and the name). Once inside the cemetery, bear left, go up the hill and make the first right (a hard right). The gravesite is near the first tree on the right. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5715. . . . . . . . . . . . High Road to Happiness Waterloo Iowa pamphlet From: diazeztone . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/17/2009 12:10:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII High Road to Happiness Waterloo Iowa pamphlet Does anyone have info on the how and why's about this pamphlet being written? LD Pierce (eztone at hotmail.com) http://aabibliography.com/ IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5716. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Themes for General Service Conference From: Kevin Short . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/18/2009 7:26:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The theme for the 2010 General Service Conference will be: "Practicing A.A.'s Principles -- the Pathway to Unity." Kevin IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5717. . . . . . . . . . . . Early AA meeting formats From: victoria callaway . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/21/2009 11:14:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII At our BB study tonite I was asked if I knew anything about early AA meeting formats and could I find out any info about them. Anyone have any info on this? thanks God bless vicki IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5718. . . . . . . . . . . . Wednesday removed from 4th ed. He Sold Himself Short From: garylock7008 . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/22/2009 10:43:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Speaking of changes made in the 4th edition of the Big Book - I am wondering why they took the word "Wednesday" out of Earl T's story ("He Sold Himself Short," page 262/263) in the 4th Edition, in all the printings? Back in the past this was the only day [afternoon] a doctor in the town I grew up in - in Nova Scotia - ever took off. To me it tells of the sacrifice and dedication Dr. Bob and his family had made for the fellowship! With the stroke of a keyboard - a part of history is gone. Gary up in Canada eh! IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5719. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr. Silkworth''s own religious beliefs From: katiebartlett79 . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/20/2009 2:34:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi, Katie from Barking Big Book study, The Way Out. Me and my group are wondering if Dr. Silkworth was himself a religious person. Many thanks, Katie IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5721. . . . . . . . . . . . Four essays on spirituality From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/22/2009 5:12:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Glenn C., four essays on spirituality http://hindsfoot.org/spiritu.html TWO ESSAYS on Rudolf Otto and his famous book "The Idea of the Holy." The central emphasis in A.A. spirituality is on learning to develop our God-consciousness and our awareness of the presence of God. The most important spokesman for this concept in early twentieth-century thought was the German philosopher and theologian Rudolf Otto (1869-1937). We need to know a little about Otto's book to fully understand what early AA people meant by this term "God-consciousness." "Learning to See the Sacred Dimension of Reality. Rudolf Otto and the Idea of the Holy, Part 1: The holy as one of the categories of the human understanding." The human experience of the holy and the sacred, the story of Bill Wilson, the sense of the divine presence, the holy as the experience of the "numinous," the use of metaphors, analogies, and ideograms to talk about this experience. http://hindsfoot.org/g04sacr.pdf "The Seven Faces of the Experience of the Divine Reality. Rudolf Otto and the Idea of the Holy, Part 2: The experience of the sacred as the source of true serenity and the healing of the spirit." (1) Tremendum: the feeling of awe and dread, (2) Majestas: the call to total surrender, (3) Energeia: power, energy, love and Eros, (4) Alienum: the divine abyss lying behind the surface illusion of understandability, (5) Fascinans: salvation itself as living in the continual presence of the sacred, (6) Augustus: the power which condemns us but then washes us clean, (7) Illuminatio: inspiring us to see and be gripped by the true goal of the spiritual life. http://hindsfoot.org/g05myst.pdf ______________________________ In the 1930's, Rudolf Otto* and Karl Barth** were considered to be the two greatest theolo- gians in the western world. In Otto's formative work, "The Idea of the Holy," he said that the heart of all of the world's religions lay in the experience of what he called the holy or the sacred, which played a central role even in religions which had no concept of God (like nontheistic Buddhism and the Native American spirituality of tribes like the Navajos and Potawatomis).*** When Bill was talking with Ebby in his kitchen, he suddenly remembered his encounter with the experience of the sacred (as Otto's book called it) at Winchester Cathedral, and he remembered how his grandfather had talked about experiencing the same mysterium tremendum while gazing at the starry heavens in the middle of the night. Shortly afterwards, Bill Wilson checked himself into Towns Hospital on Central Park West in New York City and had a second spiritual experience while in the hospital, a vision of light (an Illuminatio as we have called it in this discussion of Otto's work), where God gave Bill W. his mission. *Rudolf Otto was a German Lutheran Pietist like Frank Buchman (the founder of the Oxford Group). **Karl Barth was a Swiss Reformed theolo- gian (Reinhold Niebuhr, the author of the Serenity Prayer, was his most famous American representative). ***Otto's work is especially important because he showed how even atheists (or better put "nontheists") like Zen Buddhists and the members of many Native American religions can still have a rich and effective spirituality which can convey the sacred power which heals alcoholism and addiction -- but only if these men and women learn how to experience the overwhelming power of the Wholly Other which Otto called the holy or the sacred dimension of reality. ______________________________ TWO ADDITIONAL ESSAYS: "The Ground of Being: God and the Big Bang." Our universe exploded into being in the Big Bang, 13.7 billion years ago. God (the ground of being) is the infinite and unknowable Mystery out of which the Big Bang occurred. Eighteenth and nineteenth century attacks on the infallibility of the Bible and the rise of modern atheism in the 1840's. Atheism as control neurosis and control fantasy. How twentieth century science destroyed the roots of modern atheism. The ground of being as the basis of real spirituality. http://hindsfoot.org/g06grnd.pdf "Mount Sinai and the Burning Bush: The Cloud of Unknowing, the Altar to the Unknown God, and the Dark Night of the Soul." In order to find a God of our understanding, we first have to let go of all our old misconceptions about God, the universe, and ourselves, and make the ascent up Mount Sinai, following Moses into the Cloud of Unknowing. As we continue to climb further and further into the doubt and anguish of the Dark Night of the Soul, we use the twelve steps to guide us into a radical reframing of all the presuppositions of our lives. Disoriented within the infinite and all-encompassing Mystery, we discover the God of the empty altar -- the Altar to the Unknown God, the Agnosto Theo (Acts 17:23-28) -- and hear the voice from the Burning Bush giving us only the bare words, "I am what I am" -- the divine Person whose grace is his love offered to ALL the needy and suffering, without condition. http://hindsfoot.org/g02sinai.pdf IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5722. . . . . . . . . . . . Keeping the silkworth.net site online From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/22/2009 5:57:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Messages 5630, 5635, and 5636 ("Is the silkworth.net site down?") made us all aware of the problem which Jim Meyers has had keeping the website up and on line, after his being on disability and unable to work for the past ten months. Some of the members of our AAHistoryLovers group have encouraged Jim to set up a Pay Pal account for silkworthdotnet, where those of us who wish to, could do the equivalent of passing the hat to help the website out. I know that this goes against our normal policies in the AAHistoryLovers, but I think that for the good of the community of AA historians around the world, we very much need to post this note on the AAHistoryLovers, explaining what has now been done to keep silkworthdotnet going. The new Silkworth.net Pay Pal account is at: http://jimm.freevar.com/ Jim Myers says there: Hello my fellow AAHistoryLovers! First let me express my gratitude to all of you who emailed me in support of silkworth.net. As most of you know, I have been unable to work for over 10 months due to disability reasons. It's been a rough year for me. But I am confident that the future will be much brighter for me than the present. My name is Jim Myers, the creator and owner of silkworth.net. A little history for you. It was the year 2000 and I was introduced to computers by my mother. She was on her way to Canada and she showed me how to use ICQ instant messaging computer program to communicate with each other while she was in Canada -- one of the largest communications networks on the internet. It was probably about 6 months later, I became bored with ICQ and decided I was going to teach myself how to build websites. It was rough at first and my first attempt was building a site about UFO's. That didn't last long. Then while searching the internet about AA related stuff, I ran accross Mitchell K's website. I became very interested in AA history right then and set out to build a website about AA stuff. I had to study the code of many websites and learned at a rapid rate. Oh, before I forget, I took the suggestion of those who said open a Pay Pal account so anyone who wishes to help support silkworth.net can. http://jimm.freevar.com/ Just click on the URL above and you will be taken to the Pay Pal page where you can help get silkworth.net back online and keep it online. OK, where was I? At first, silkworth.net took on many forms -- completely different than it is today. Then I started learning other things about building websites. For instance, whether silkworth.net was going to look the same in the four main browsers, and coming to realize that most people don't want to hear music on the web pages. So I started making changes to the site for simplicity reasons till silkworth.net evolved to where it is today. I never intended silkworth.net to grow as large as it is today (almost 2 gigabytes). I also never expected the site to become so busy (over a million hits per month). I got a email one day not to long ago from doteasy.com where silkworth.net is hosted. They told me I had to control the bandwidth, which is unlimited, and a few other things. They said my site was the cause of all their servers shutting down. Well, I think I have said enough for now. Again, I would just like to say thank you and I am very grateful to you all for your help. Yours in Service Ever Grateful Jim Myers P.S. I believe I am going to upload all of silkworth.net to a free web host just in case silkworth.net goes off line again, which God forbid. Again, I extend my gratitude to all of you who wish to help get silkworth.net back online. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5723. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr. Bob and Masonry From: Woodstock . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/22/2009 11:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I believe that I read somewhere that both Dr. Bob and Clarence Snyder were fraternal members of the Free and Accepted Masons fraternity, though not active during their AA membership. I think I read about their membership from an interview or story written about Clarence, but I am not sure. Does anyone have a source or knowledge of Dr. Bob's Masonic membership? Jim S. Pensacola, FL IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5724. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Early AA meeting formats From: S Sommers . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/25/2009 8:41:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have heard a recording of a lead by Bill Dotson, AA number 3, from the first anniversary of a group - possibly Canton, Ohio's first birthday celebration. I believe it's the only extant lead of Bill D's we have. In his story he tells of early meetings when the group didn't know who was going to lead the meeting until the meeting itself. After five minutes of quiet time, the group members would vote on who would lead the meeting. My thought is that early formats of meetings might be recalled in some of the old leads, but the memory of even the sober worthies may not be historical fact. It's a starting point for knowing about the structure of early meetings. It would be interesting to know what was happening in the "flying blind" period before the book Alcoholics Anonymous was written. Thanks for everything. Sam Sommers Elkhart, Indiana IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5725. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr. Bob and Masonry From: buck johnson . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/23/2009 10:01:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Mitchell Klein, "How It Worked," Chapter 9 http://www.aabbsg.org/chs/chs09.htm "Clarence became involved with the Masons in Florida. Like Dr. Bob, Clarence was a 32° Mason." - - - - "Bruce C." (brucecl2002 at yahoo.com) Also refers us to Mitchell K.'s "How It Worked" - - - - From: jdf10487@yahoo.com (jdf10487 at yahoo.com) The following article claims that Dr. Bob was a Mason. Sincerely, Jim F. http://www.worldviewtimes.com/article.php/articleid-3537 "Dr. Bob was a Mason. Suspended in 1934, he gained reinstatement after being sober for some years." The endnote gives Cedric L. Smith, PGM, Grand Secretary of Masons in Vermont, as the source of this information. - - - - Note from the moderator: I would suggest that some member of our group who is a Mason check the Vermont Masonic records to see if everything in that last statement (especially the part about Dr. Bob being "suspended" and all that) is in fact correct, before anybody repeats all that information. - - - - More importantly though, if Dr. Bob was a good Mason, then he believed that all you had to do to be approved in God's eyes was to be an ethical monotheist. Although most American Masons were Protestants, Jews were also allowed to join. So Masons beleived in one God, the Great Architect who had designed and created this universe, and in living a life of honesty and the highest moral principles, based on God's Moral Law. But you did NOT have to believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ to be a Mason, nor was anyone required to accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior. A number of American presidents were Masons: George Washington, James Monroe, Andrew Jackson, James Knox Polk, James Buchanan, Andrew Johnson, James Abram Garfield, William McKinley, Theodore Roosevelt, William Howard Taft, Warren Gamaliel Harding, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Harry S Truman, Gerald R. Ford, Jr., and Lyndon Baines Johnson. The U.S. Declaration of Independence reflected this same Deist and Masonic conception of God and the universal moral law. If we observe "the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God," it is a self-evident truth, the declaration proclaimed, "that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." http://www.givemeliberty.org/DOCS/DECLARATION.HTM This is the core of AA's moral code: Treat all other men and women with respect as human beings equal in importance (in God's eyes) to ourselves. Respect other people's rights at all times. Show tolerance to all, and give everyone else the Liberty to live their own lives on their own principles -- I have NO RIGHT to act like a tyrant and try to impose my will and my beliefs on anyone else. When I am in bitter conflict with other people, I must ask myself, which do I want? to be right or to be happy? Sane people (most of the time) choose "the pursuit of Happiness" in those situations as their goal. Dr. Bob was 55 years old when he met Bill W. and got sober. It doesn't matter what was preached by some religious youth group that Dr. Bob had belonged 40 or 50 years earlier. How many of us still believe when we are 55 what we believed when we were 5 or 10 years old? If Dr. Bob had joined the Masons, then this means that AS AN ADULT he had come to accept the principle that all God required of us human beings was that we recognize Him as the creator (the Great Architect of the universe) and as the Author of a universal moral law which intelligent people could work out for themselves, using their own conscience and their own common sense, without having to appeal to any church doctrines or dogmas or holy books. Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5726. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Early AA meeting formats From: Matt Dingle . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/25/2009 2:55:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Early AA meeting formats: see Message #5300 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/5300 "How early AA meetings were held in Akron and Cleveland." Matt D. - - - - Also see Message #5301 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/5301 and also see numerous passages in "Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers." There was considerable flux (and considerable variety) in the way AA meetings were conducted during the early period. GFC IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5727. . . . . . . . . . . . 27th Annual Manitoba Conference, Winnipeg, 1971 From: mrpetesplace . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/23/2009 2:36:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have a plaque with pictures of Bill and Bob on it, that comes from the 27th Annual Manitoba Conference in Winnipeg in 1971. For Bill it has 1895 - 1971 so I know it was made sometime later that year after Bill passed (he died on 24 January at the beginning of 1971). I have a picture of it at http://www.aastuff.com/plaque I know it is about 38 years old but am curious to know more about when the conference was held or any information on it. Also, any information on this plaque would be great. Were there more of them made? I'm thinking it was a centerpiece for the podium at conference or perhaps might have been given to quest speakers (in which case, more than one would have been made). Thank you in advance for help. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5728. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Early AA meeting formats From: James Flynn . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/25/2009 2:55:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII What happened during the flying blind period was Bill and Bob had lots and lots of failed attempts at trying to get and keep alcoholics sober. Bill D. was AA number 3. There have always been small number of alcoholics who have gotten sober through religious conversion and even the psycho- logical approach (see Richard Peabody's "The Common Sense of Drinking). The Washintonians were perhaps the first to show that sobriety could be mass produced, followed later by Alcoholics Anonymous, but there may have been other large movements throughout the course of history that have arisen and faded away. Sincerely, Jim F. - - - - From: S Sommers Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Early AA meeting formats To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, May 25, 2009, 5:41 AM I have heard a recording of a lead by Bill Dotson, AA number 3, from the first anniversary of a group - possibly Canton, Ohio's first birthday celebration. I believe it's the only extant lead of Bill D's we have. In his story he tells of early meetings when the group didn't know who was going to lead the meeting until the meeting itself. After five minutes of quiet time, the group members would vote on who would lead the meeting. My thought is that early formats of meetings might be recalled in some of the old leads, but the memory of even the sober worthies may not be historical fact. It's a starting point for knowing about the structure of early meetings. It would be interesting to know what was happening in the "flying blind" period before the book Alcoholics Anonymous was written. Thanks for everything. Sam Sommers Elkhart, Indiana IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5729. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Four essays on spirituality From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/23/2009 4:43:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII DONALD REEVES There is a powerful description of "deflation at depth" in Donald Reeves' autobiograpy.* Reeves, now a retired Anglican priest, told how in the 1950s he experienced his own rock bottom, viz: "Over the days I received what I can only describe as a gift, not mediated by anyone or anything. The gift came with the words, 'Do not fear; you will be all right.' PAUL TILLICH Years later in a sermon by Paul Tillich, in "The Shaking of the Foundations", I recognised what I experienced in that Beirut church: 'We cannot transform our lives, unless we allow them to be transformed by a stroke of grace. It happens; or it does not happen ... Grace strikes us when we are in great pain and restlessness. It strikes us when we walk through the dark valley of a meaningless and empty life ... It strikes us when the longed-for perfection of life does not appear, when the old compulsions reign within us as they have for decades, when despair destroys all joy and courage. Sometimes at that moment a wave of light breaks into our darkness, and it is as though a voice were saying, 'You are accepted, you are accepted, accepted by that which is greater than you, and the name of which you do not know. Do not ask for the name now; perhaps you will find it later. Do not try to do anything now; perhaps later you will do much. Do not seek for anything; do not perform anything; do not intend anything. Simply accept the fact that you are accepted!' If that happens to us, we experience grace. After such an experience we may not be better than before, and we may not believe more than before. But everything is transformed.' Theologians and preachers sometimes say far too much. I was not transformed there and then, but I recognised enough in Tillich's words which resonated with my own life. Atheists irritated by this 'emotional waffle' say: 'You were just exhausted and wanted a break'.' To which I respond: 'You are right, but why reduce everything to just? Can't you understand the depth and width of what I am describing?' They say: 'Why can't we have this experience, then?' And I respond: 'I do not know'. At which point the conversation falters." REEVES ON A.A. MEETINGS In an earlier book Reeves described an AA meeting as "an arena of hope". ____________________________ *The memoirs of a 'very dangerous man'; Donald Reeves; Continuum; 2009. ("A very dangerous man" is how Margaret Thatcher described Reeves when she was UK prime minister and he priest at St James's church, Piccadily, London!) - - - - Original message from: glennccc@sbcglobal.net Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 14:12:55 -0700 Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Four essays on spirituality "Mount Sinai and the Burning Bush: The Cloud of Unknowing, the Altar to the Unknown God, and the Dark Night of the Soul." In order to find a God of our understanding, we first have to let go of all our old misconceptions about God, the universe, and ourselves, and make the ascent up Mount Sinai, following Moses into the Cloud of Unknowing. As we continue to climb further and further into the doubt and anguish of the Dark Night of the Soul, we use the twelve steps to guide us into a radical reframing of all the presuppositions of our lives. Disoriented within the infinite and all-encompassing Mystery, we discover the God of the empty altar -- the Altar to the Unknown God, the Agnosto Theo (Acts 17:23-28) -- and hear the voice from the Burning Bush giving us only the bare words, "I am what I am" -- the divine Person whose grace is his love offered to ALL the needy and suffering, without condition. http://hindsfoot.org/g02sinai.pdf - - - - Also see AA historian Richard M. Dubiel, "Paul Tillich: Key Philosophical Theologian of the Mid-Twentieth Century" http://hindsfoot.org/dubtill.html Also see two chapters by Glenn Chesnut on Paul Tillich (and Albert Einstein) at http://hindsfoot.org/pers2.pdf Chapter 10 (pp. 56 ff.) "Paul Tillich: An Impersonal Ground of Being" Chapter 11 (pp. 69 ff.) "Tillich and Einstein" IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5730. . . . . . . . . . . . silkworth.net is back! From: silkworthdotnet . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/25/2009 5:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII silkworth.net is back! I just want to say thank you for all of your support and to those individuals who helped make this possible. For those who helped make this happen, I will be contacting you according to how you entered your contact information. This has been an overwhelming experience for me! Yours in service, Ever grateful, Jim Myers IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5731. . . . . . . . . . . . The silkworth.net site plus links to other AA history sites, please From: mrpetesplace . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/23/2009 2:39:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have added some information and links to http://aastuff.com/ for the effort to keep silkworth.net online and running. Silkworth.net is probably the best of all the history sites. But remember there are 20 sites at this time linked with my search engine, and I am always looking to add more with AA history, even if it is just your local history. So please send me any references to local AA history sites which I can post links to, that is what I need most. peter@aastuff.com (peter at aastuff.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5732. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr. Bob was a Mason From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/26/2009 2:04:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com) Confirmation from Cedric Smith: I have a Robert H. Smith who was a member of our Passumpsic Lodge No. 27 located in St. Johnsbury, Vermont. He joined the Masons Lodge on February 12, 1903 and died on November 16, 1950. I have a William B. Wilson who was a member of our Franklin Lodge No. 4 located in St. Albans, Vermont. He joined the Masons Lodge on December 4, 1849 and was dropped in 1860. I hope this help in you with your research. Cedric Smith - - - - From the moderator: This first figure must have been Dr. Bob = Robert Holbrook Smith (August 8, 1879 - November 16, 1950), co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous. Dr. Bob graduated from Dartmouth College in 1902, and seems to have joined the Masons in the following year. - - - - It is not clear who the other person was. It is the wrong middle initial and completely wrong dates to be AA's Bill Wilson: Bill W. = William Griffith Wilson (November 26, 1895 - January 24, 1971), co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous. Could it have been one of his relatives? Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) - - - - See original Message #5725, which cites Cedric L. Smith, PGM, Grand Secretary of Masons in Vermont, as the source of the information that Dr. Bob was a Mason: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/5725 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5733. . . . . . . . . . . . The forgotten steps From: nuevenueve@ymail.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/26/2009 7:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Group: Historically speaking, when, where, and why did Steps 6 & 7 come to be called "The Forgotten Steps"? Regards Hugo IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5734. . . . . . . . . . . . How did AA in Southern U.S. in 40''s and 50''s deal with Jim Crow? From: tomvlll . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/28/2009 8:36:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII How did AA deal with the Jim Crow laws (the rigid segregation laws) of that period? Did they have segregated meetings? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5735. . . . . . . . . . . . Origins of the Circle and Triangle: Masonic influence? From: kodom2545 . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/27/2009 4:58:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I was watching a documentary on the Masons in the founding of our nation and I noticed on one of the Masonic garments of our founding fathers there was the circle and triangle that AA has used. I am well aware that the symbol has been around a very long time before we decided to use it, but I was wondering what previous cultures, groups, or entities used/use it? Also, Who selected it as an AA symbol? God Bless, Kyle IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5736. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The forgotten steps From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/27/2009 5:49:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII At 18:17 5/26/2009, Hugo wrote: >Hi Group: > >Historically speaking, when, where, and why >did Steps 6 & 7 come to be called "The Forgotten >Steps"? Post #2559 by Arthur S. on July 26, 2005 starts: The June 1952 Grapevine had an article titled "The Forgotten Steps." However, it focuses on Steps 8 and 9 as opposed to 6 and 7. Prior to the Big Book, the recovery program consisted of 6 Steps passed on to new members by word of mouth. 3 differing versions of the 6 Steps appear in AA literature: "The Language of the Heart" (pg 200) "AA Comes of Age" (pg 160) "Pass It On" (pg 190) and Big Book Pioneer story "He Sold Himself Short" (pg 263 - 4th ed) The variations in wording help illustrate the difficulties that can occur when something is passed on solely by word-of-mouth. It may be helpful to read the entire post. Tommy H in Baton Rouge IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5737. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The forgotten steps From: tomper87 . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/28/2009 11:27:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The Twelve Steps Of Alcoholics Anonymous: Interpreted By The Hazelden Foundation (Paperback) 1993 STEPS SIX AND SEVEN: The Forgotten Steps This is one such source but may not be the original. Tom P. - - - - From the moderator: This book or pamphlet seems like it may have been written by someone named James Brandon. If you Google for "forgotten steps," there are other references in things written about AA, where the phrase seems to regularly refer to Steps Six and Seven. They tend to be "forgotten," these pieces usually state, because people jump from doing their fourth and fifth steps to doing their eighth and ninths steps too quickly, and then cannot understand why they still feel so much mental turmoil and inner unhappiness. And they tend be "forgotten," it is frequently stated, because people forget to call on God for help -- or are too scared of God to turn to Him for help. So we help people deal with Steps Six and Seven by encouraging them to trust God and not be afraid of God, and recognize that God is here to help us, without scolding or condemnation, if we just ask for His help. (We don't help people in the slightest if all we do is scold them, and berate them, and accuse them of worshiping light bulbs and door knobs. People aren't stupid. But alcoholics DO feel a whole lot of fear and guilt over the things they have done.) That's in the pieces I looked at, but there may be a lot more written on this topic. Glenn C., Moderator P.S. There is a good discussion of one way of working the sixth and seventh steps, based on Father Ralph Pfau, in "The Right Side of the Page" by John Barleycorn http://hindsfoot.org/barright.html John makes these "Virtue Chips" out of maple and walnut and other fine woods in his workshop in Fort Wayne, Indiana. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5738. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: How did AA in Southern U.S. in 40''s and 50''s deal with Jim Crow? From: Al Welch . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/29/2009 2:21:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII According to page 129 of the book " Thank You For Sharing" as late as August 1967 in places like Pass Christian, Mississippi, the meetings were still segregated. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5739. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: How did AA in Southern U.S. in 40''s and 50''s deal with Jim Crow? From: Ernest Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/29/2009 2:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Most briefly: When asked about that, Bill W. said that while AAs should never exclude anyone who honestly wanted to stop drinking from their meetings, "we are not out to change the world," and so should abide by the customs of the place. And so if the place where meetings were held was segregated, AAs should respect that. I believe that this was about the time in the 1940s that President Truman was desegregating the armed forces, and so before the peak of the mid-1950s movement that led to the Supreme Court's "Brown decision." ernie kurtz - - - - On May 28, 2009, at 8:36 AM, tomvlll wrote: > > > How did AA deal with the Jim Crow laws (the > rigid segregation laws) of that period? Did > they have segregated meetings? > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5740. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Origins of the Circle and Triangle: Masonic influence? From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/29/2009 4:35:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII At 15:58 5/27/2009, kodom2545 wrote: ======================================== >I was watching a documentary on the Masons in the founding of our >nation and I noticed on one of the Masonic garments of our founding >fathers there was the circle and triangle that AA has used. >I am well aware that the symbol has been around a very long time >before we decided to use it, but I was wondering what previous >cultures, groups, or entities used/use it? ======================================== I know Centenary-South United Church of Canada in Rock Island, Quebec, has it on its facade and I have always associated it with that denomination. However, their web site has nothing that I could find on it. ======================================== >Also, Who selected it as an AA symbol? ======================================== From As Bill Sees It p. 307, referring to A.A. Comes of Age p . 139: "Circle and Triangle "Above us, at the International Convention at St. Louis in 1955, floated a banner on which was inscribed the then new symbol for A.A., a circle enclosing a triangle. The circle stands for the whole world of A.A., the triangle stands for A.A.'s Three Legacies: Recovery, Unity, and Service. "It is perhaps no accident that priests and seers of antiquity regarded this symbol as a means of warding off spirits of evil." Tommy H in Baton Rouge IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5741. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Origins of the Circle and Triangle From: David . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/30/2009 12:55:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In aikido, a "martial art" strongly influenced by principles of the Oomoto religion, this circle and triangle symbol is used. "These concepts address the distance, contact, connection, blending, balance breaking, lines of attacks and centerlines, timing, and the lingering spirit connection that leaves a lasting impression after the conflict is successfully and peacefully concluded." Advanced Aikido (Dang & Seiser, 2006.) - - - - In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Tom Hickcox wrote: From As Bill Sees It p. 307, referring to A.A. Comes of Age p . 139: "Above us, at the International Convention at St. Louis in 1955, floated a banner on which was inscribed the then new symbol for A.A., a circle enclosing a triangle .... It is perhaps no accident that priests and seers of antiquity regarded this symbol as a means of warding off spirits of evil." Tommy H in Baton Rouge IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5742. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: How did AA in Southern U.S. in 40''s and 50''s deal with Jim Crow? From: David . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/30/2009 12:35:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There is an excellent set of articles at http://hindsfoot.org/nblack1.html on the Hindsfoot Foundation website, edited/compiled by Glenn C. - - - - Note from the moderator: this was not about "the South" as opposed to "the North." These articles are about the northern U.S. area running from Chicago through Gary to South Bend, and show a pattern of hostility towards black people trying to join AA, as late as 1948 to 1950. Only three or four of the house meetings in South Bend (a totally northern U.S. city) would allow black people to attend AA meetings at all, and they made them sit in the kitchen, instead of in the living room, where the AA meeting was being conducted, and made them drink their coffee out of cups with cracks or chips in them (there are multiple attestations of that latter fact coming from black oldtimers who had come in during that period). They could listen to the white people speak, but were not allowed to speak themselves. Black AA members had to stand at the back of the room at the weekly open speaker meeting, and if they attempted to go up afterwards and shake the speaker's hand, the speaker would turn away and refuse to shake hands with them. These articles describe the events in which some heroic black people stood their ground, and insisted on obtaining entry into the AA program. And their story culminated in a triumphant endings, as black people like Bill Hoover, Brownie, and Goshen Bill became some of the most important -- and most loved and respected -- AA leaders during the 1970's and 80's in South Bend and the surrounding Indiana area. (It shoud also be noted that the white churches were still blocking black people from attending -- most black people, most of the time, in the North as well as in the South -- as late as the 1960's and later, so AA opened its doors to black members twenty years or more before most of the churches in the U.S.) --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "tomvlll" wrote: > > How did AA deal with the Jim Crow laws (the > rigid segregation laws) of that period? Did > they have segregated meetings? > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5743. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: How did AA in Southern U.S. in 40''s and 50''s deal w... From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/30/2009 3:23:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII It seems that Bill W did try to integrate AA from the very beginning, but he had objections from members from the start. Bill kept his ties to African Americans and gradually introduced them to the larger AA community. Some of our people with an accurate memory for dates, can give a date for Jim S. (Jim's Story in the Big Book) sobriety. It seems to be about time of the war years, But AA writing suggests Bill W had worked with alcoholics who happened to be African Americans or who otherwise did not seem to fit the mold of being middle class, white, heterosexual, etc., prior to World War II. Even in DC at that early date Jim's story shows how the local AA's helped him and accepted him and helped him to start a group that I think is still going. There is a question as to Bill W or Dr Bob getting the first African American into an AA group in the early days. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5744. . . . . . . . . . . . The six steps From: Dean at ComPlanners . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/30/2009 4:48:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII AAHistoryLoversTom Hickcox, quoting Post #2559 by Arthur S. from July 26, 2005, wrote: " ... Prior to the Big Book, the recovery program consisted of 6 Steps passed on to new members by word of mouth. 3 differing versions of the 6 Steps appear in AA literature: 'The Language of the Heart' (pg 200), 'AA Comes of Age' (pg 160), 'Pass It On' (pg 190), and Big Book Pioneer story 'He Sold Himself Short' (pg 263 - 4th ed). The variations in wording help illustrate the difficulties that can occur when something is passed on solely by word-of-mouth." [Text of these six-step summaries also in http://hindsfoot.org/steps6.html ] Another variation in wording appears on page 12 of "Three talks to Medical Societies by Bill W., co-founder of AA" (P-6, 7/03). There, Bill lists the six "principles" Ebby "applied ... to himself in 1934." Note too that in the text of the second talk (same pamphlet), Bill reduces the 12 Steps to 5 steps/concepts/principles/whatever (see page 29): "Boiled down, these Steps mean, simply: a. Admission of alcoholism; b. Personality analysis and catharsis; c. Adjustment of personal relations; d. Dependence upon some Higher Power; e. Working with other alcoholics" (Also, the version of the 6 Steps in my "Pass It On" appears on page 197 rather than on page 190.) Dean IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5745. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Origins of the Circle and Triangle From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/31/2009 3:50:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A Catholic priest told me that in Christian iconography the circle and triangle stand for the unbroken circle of eternity and the Holy Trinity. It appears in the architecture, stained glass and artefacts of churches, cathedrals etc. I first saw it in a window at the Anglican parish church at Nympsfield, Gloucestershire, England, while attending a service during a retreat for AA and Al-Anon members; inspired synchronicity! AA World Services (AAWS) discontinued using the circle and triangle on AA generated material after the US general service conference in 1993. The story is told in the December 1993 issue of the Grapevine, viz: "Adopted at the 20th anniversary international convention in St Louis, the circle and triangle symbol was registered as an official AA mark in 1955 ... By the mid-1980s, however, it had also begun to be used by outside organisations, such as novelty manufacturers, publishers and occasionally treatment facilities. There was growing concern in the membership of AA about this situation. Some AA members were saying 'we don't want our circle and triangle aligned with non-AA purposes'. In keeping with the Sixth Tradition ... AAWS board began to contact outside entities that were using the circle and triangle in an unauthorised manner, and to take action to prevent such use of the symbol. AAWS implemented this policy with restraint, and did not resort to legal remedies until all attempts at persuasion and conciliation had been unsuccessful... Denying the use of the symbol to outside entities raised other problems, however. By early 1990s it was clear that some AA members very much wanted to be able to obtain medallions with 'our' circle and triangle ... At the 1992 conference there were presentations on why we should or should not produce medallions, and on the responsibility of AAWS to protect our trademarks and copyright ... (Conference asked the trustees to undertake a feasibility study and report back to an ad hoc committee of delegates). The committee ... presented its report and recommendations (to Conference 1993) and Conference approved two of five recommendations:- 1) that the use of sobriety chips/medallions is a matter of local autonomy ... and 2) it is not appropriate for AAWS or the Grapevine to produce or license the production of chips /medallions ... The chips and trademark questions were dealt with as separately as possible ... Immediately after the conference the general service board accepted AAWS's recommendation to discontinue protecting the circle and triangle symbol as one of AAWs's registered marks and by early June the trustees reached substantial unanimity in support of AAWS's statement that, to avoid the suggestion of association or affiliation with outside goods and services, AAWS Inc would phase out the 'official' or 'legal' use of the circle and triangle ... Like the Serenity Prayer and slogans, which have never had official recognition, the circle and triangle will most likely continue to be used widely for many AA purposes. The difference from earlier practice is that its official use to denote Alcoholics Anonymous materials will be phased out. Laurie A. - - - - CIRCLE AND TRIANGLE LOGOS: Civil Air Patrol: http://www.caphistory.org/museum_exh_1.html Civil Defense: http://museumcollections.in.gov/detail.php?t=objects&type=browse&f=object_ty pe&s\ =Booklet&record=15 [10] YMCA: http://www.hymca.jp/fukuyama/nihongo/english/ymca_message/index.html http://www.photographersdirect.com/buyers/stockphoto.asp?imageid=1599054 Sons of Temperance: http://www.sonsoftemperance.abelgratis.co.uk/ Hamilton Bulldogs sports logo: http://www.sportslogos.net/logo.php?id=2147 Pittsburgh Penguins sports logo: http://www.sportslogos.net/logo.php?id=269 NASA mission patch: http://imageevent.com/publicgallery/photography/symbolsandlofos000?p=79&n=1& m=-1\ &c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9 [11] Pyramid (triangle) in a circle on the back of the U.S. dollar bill: http://www.unique-design.net/library/myth/image.html Asian: http://www.sparksdojo.com http://www.longchenfoundation.org/aboutSymbol.html holistic medicine: http://www.rmholistics.com/blog/?page_id=2&action=lostpassword Cemetery of Montparnasse in Paris: http://www.flickr.com/photos/lwr/217532490/ Magic symbolism (Solomon's Triangle): http://www.thelemapedia.org/images/2/2a/Goetia2.jpg http://www.answers.com/topic/magic-circle-2 Health Occupations Students of America http://www.david-ho.com/HOSA/About.html IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5746. . . . . . . . . . . . Pensions to GSO Personnel From: M.J. Johnson . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/1/2009 7:28:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does anyone have any historical background regarding the institution of pensions for GSO workers? I'm trying to determine if the pensions that GSO employees & members of the Board of Trustees are eligible for came into existence out a Conference advisory action, or if it was part of the original charter, or just exactly what the history around it was... Many thanks, - M.J. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5747. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: How did AA in Southern U.S. in 40''s and 50''s deal with Jim Crow? From: Jon Markle . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/30/2009 4:26:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Anecdotal: early on in my sobriety, in Wilmington NC, (about 25 years ago), I remember remarking that there were no black people in AA meetings. I was informed "they" had their own meetings. I found out they met just down the street where from where I was living at the time, in "shanty town" in my sobriety shack! I visited the meeting and it was a bit strange, the looks. During the same time period, I got involved with starting the area's only gay group. Our first round up, we invited a black gay man to be our featured guest speaker. I believe he had over 30 years at the time. And his story was something of the AA history of both black people and gay people in the area, from NYC on down the Eastern/ southeastern Seaboard. I wish I had a copy of that talk. I know now how remarkable his journey was. As I remember it, it was a struggle that I do not think I could have made. I probably would not have been able to stay sober under those conditions, feeling that sort of persecution in the rooms, let alone in the life outside the rooms. AA has some very ugly history, as does America in general. And we still have a long way to go. I'm reminded that unless we learn from our past, we are doomed to repeat it. Hugs for the trudge. Jon (Raleigh) 9/9/82 - - - - From: Michael Oates (mso2941 at yahoo.com) This is great information. About ten years ago the Pope issued an apology for the Catholic Church's actions in dealing with segregation. Has AA ever offered an amends for its behavior during this period of Americana? - - - - PHOTOS OF BROWNIE'S, the AA meeting set up by one of the great early black leaders in northern Indiana AA, and some of the people from Chicago and South Bend who have been supporting this historic site: http://hindsfoot.org/ndigsym.html http://www.geocities.com/glennccc@sbcglobal.net/digsym01.html http://www.geocities.com/glennccc@sbcglobal.net/digsym02.html TRANSCRIPTION OF RECORDINGS OF BLACK LEADERS SPEAKING (early Chicago and South Bend AA): http://hindsfoot.org/nblack1.html http://hindsfoot.org/Nblack2.html http://hindsfoot.org/Nblack3.html THE WISDOM OF GOSHEN BILL (another early black leader from northern Indiana AA): http://hindsfoot.org/nkosc3gb.html - - - - From: (aadavidi at yahoo.com) I was told by a member raised in coastal South Carolina about the experience of an A.A. group in the Myrtle Beach, S.C. area during the Jim Crow days. It seems a black man came to this group seeking help and being an alcoholic they knew they were obliged to do what they could for him. Of course the local laws forbid his entering the same building with the white folks. They held a group conscience, prayed on the matter and someone came up with the idea of placing a chair in the doorway for the black man to sit in during the meetings. This way the law was not violated because he was not exactly included nor was our 3rd tradition violated because he was not exactly excluded. - - - - From: Sober186@aol.com (Sober186 at aol.com) About 15 or 20 years ago I listened to a panel of Old Timers at a local gathering which included an Afrcan American. He related that he had been in the Air Force based in a southern state, and after several drunken escapades, his commanding officer ordered him to attend AA meetings. There were no "Colored Only" meetings. The community or state had laws which made it illegal for blacks to attend any gathering with whites, but he showed up at the local AA meeting anyway. The members of the local AA group decided they could place a chair for lthe African American in the hallway just outside the door of their meeting room. The members then arranged their own chairs so that the black man was included in the circle, even though he would not technically be in the same room in which the meeting for whites was held. Jim L. Columbus, Ohio IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5748. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Early AA meeting formats From: azmikefitz . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/30/2009 7:42:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII As some of the group members are aware recently we launched a new website that hosts many early A.A. talks, www.recoveryspeakers.org, one talk that will be of interest related to the early times is "Annv of St Thomas" Sister Ignatia. This recording has several of the members from the Kings School original group speaking at the beginning of the meeting, followed by a great talk by Bill W. and a very short talk by Sister Ignatia, her last recorded talk. Bob E. sober since 1936 talks a bit about going upstairs at T Henry's house in Akron. Please note that this site is now available for free downloading but does need support. In our first week we have averaged 100 visitors per day who have been enjoying thousands of downloaded talks. The comments we have received have been wonderful and we are most grateful for any support. Sincerely, Mike F IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5749. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: How did AA in Southern U.S. in 40''s and 50''s deal with Jim Crow? From: johnlawlee . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/1/2009 7:48:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "tomvlll" wrote: > > How did AA deal with the Jim Crow laws (the > rigid segregation laws) of that period? Did > they have segregated meetings? > The Jim Crow laws were limited to public accomodations, so they would have had little to do with AA. Private gatherings were not restricted by the Jim Crow laws. About the only time the Jim Crow laws would have come into play would have been where an AA meeting was held in a public facility, such as a school, courthouse, train station, restaurant or town hall. Blacks would have had to use designated restrooms and drinking fountains in those buildings. I suspect Bill Wilson's concern in the period 1940-64 was to not involve AA in an area of public controversy. Bill was about as colorblind and inclusive as they came, but he was very sensitive on public perception of the Fellowship. John Lee Pittsburgh IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5750. . . . . . . . . . . . First black AA group was in Washington D.C. From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/2/2009 4:14:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Did Jim's Story first appear in the Big Book in the second edition? ("This physician, one of the earliest members of AA's first black group, tells of how freedom came as he worked among his people.") The group was in Washington: "... we met at Ella G.'s. It was Charlie G. and three or four others. That was the first meeting of a colored group in AA as far as I know ... Charlie, my sponsor was white, and when we got our group started, we got help from other white groups in Washington. They came, many of them, and stuck by us and told us how to hold meetings ..." Anyone know the date, it was after 1940? Jim was born in Virginia. He wrote, "I don't think I suffered too much as far as the racial situation was concerned because I was born into it and knew nothing other than that. A man (sic) wasn't actually mistreated, though if he was, he could only resent it. He could do nothing about it... On the other hand, I got quite a different picture farther south..." Laurie A. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5751. . . . . . . . . . . . First black AA group was in Washington D.C. -- or Chicago? From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/2/2009 6:32:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII WASHINGTON, D.C. Jim's Story in the Big Book (Jim Scott MD, Washington, DC). Some regard this as having been the first black AA group: April 1945. Big Book, 2nd edition #471, 3rd edition #483, 4th edition 232 http://www.a-1associates.com/westbalto/HISTORY_PAGE/Authors.htm (or http://silkworth.net/aabiography/storyauthors.html ) This account says (but without giving a date): "When repairing an electric outlet for a friend, to earn some drinking money, he met Ella G., whom he had known years before but didn't recognize. Ella arranged for Jim to meet 'Charlie G.' who became his sponsor. Charlie was a white man. The following Sunday he met with Ella, Charlie, and three or four others at Ella's house. 'That was the first meeting of a colored group in A.A.,' so far as Jim knew." "Jim spoke at the 'God as We Understand Him' meeting held Sunday morning at the International Convention in St. Louis in 1955. Bill wrote in 'A.A. Comes of Age:'" "'Deep silence fell as Dr. Jim S., the A.A. speaker, told of his life experience and the serious drinking that led to the crises which had brought about his spiritual awakening. He re-enacted for us his own struggle to start the very first group among Negroes, his own people. Aided by a tireless and eager wife, he had turned his home into a combined hospital and A.A. meeting place, free to all. He told how early failure had finally been transformed under God's grace into amazing success, we who listened realized that A.A., not only could cross seas and mountains and boundaries of language and nation but could surmount obstacles of race and creed as well.'" Bob Pearson, Manuscript of A.A. World History, page 44, gives a date: "The Washington Colored Group was founded in April '45 by Jimmy S. It later changed its name to the Cosmopolitan Group to convey the fact that it was 'a group for all people, all races; it doesn't matter who you are.'" ____________________________________ CHICAGO: Chicago however appears to have had a black AA group started a month earlier, in March 1945: http://hindsfoot.org/Nblack3.html GLENN: Now what year did you come into A.A. in Chicago? BILL WILLIAMS: I think it 'uz, umn .... JIMMY H.: Forty-five .... It was December '45. Cause [Earl] Redmond came in in March, you told me .... BILL WILLIAMS: But anyway, I know Redmond came in in March, and I came in that following December. GLENN: So when you came to South Bend [in 1948] you had about four or five years sobriety behind you? You had a good program by then. BILL WILLIAMS: Oh yeah, I was pretty solid. I knew by that time that it was going to work . . . . GLENN: Now when you came into A.A. in Chicago, in 1945, did you hit trouble there too? Was there a color bar .... there in Chicago in 1945? I don't know anything about Chicago. BILL WILLIAMS: Oh yeah! Yeah, it was the same thing. It's still prejudiced, even now [1999]. GLENN: How did you deal with that? In Chicago, in 1945? BILL WILLIAMS: Well, I was born in Texas. RAYMOND: He's a cowboy! [Laughter] ____________________________________ So what further information can our AA historians from Washington D.C. and Chicago give us? I know that in Chicago, the Evans Avenue group still meets, although they have moved to a new location. I have visited their new building, and there were photographs of Earl Redmond and so on, and there also appeared to be a lot of other material there of great archival significance. Glenn C. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5752. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: How did AA in Southern U.S. in 40''s and 50''s deal with Jim Crow? From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/2/2009 4:54:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII At 18:48 6/1/2009, johnlawlee wrote: >--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, >"tomvlll" wrote: > > > > How did AA deal with the Jim Crow laws (the > > rigid segregation laws) of that period? Did > > they have segregated meetings? > > > >The Jim Crow laws were limited to public >accomodations, so they would have had little >to do with AA. Private gatherings were not >restricted by the Jim Crow laws. > >About the only time the Jim Crow laws would >have come into play would have been where >an AA meeting was held in a public facility, >such as a school, courthouse, train station, >restaurant or town hall. Blacks would have >had to use designated restrooms and drinking >fountains in those buildings. > >I suspect Bill Wilson's concern in the period >1940-64 was to not involve AA in an area of >public controversy. Bill was about as >colorblind and inclusive as they came, but >he was very sensitive on public perception >of the Fellowship. I would say this oversimplifies it quite a bit. I do remember in the early '60s the police pulling blacks out of white churches and whites out of black churches in the south without any request from the congregations. Separation meant separation. Bus stations, train stations, airports, movie theaters, sports stadia were segregated. I moved to Shreveport, Louisiana, in the fall of 1946, and, except for several years in the middle '60s, have lived in Louisiana since and observed segregation up close. I attended Centenary College in Shreveport, class of 1961. By the time I graduated, some of my fellow students were making contacts in the black community. While there was no reaction by the college administration, there was from the community and politicians. Waking up in the morning and finding garbage on your lawn was the first sign you had disturbed the powers that were. While private gatherings may not have been unlawful, they were often noticed and there likely were consequences. Tommy H in Baton Rouge IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5753. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: First black AA group was in Washington D.C. -- or Chicago? From: Cindy Miller . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/5/2009 11:18:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII On Sunday, March 22, 2009, members of my HomeGroup rented a van and we drove to Washington, DC - where the Reeves Club was holding its' "4th Annual AA Old-Timers Speakers Jamm" This event was also a celebration of the Cosmopolitan Club, and every hour, the group read portions of "Jim's Story". The event was absolutely outstanding--each speaker had over 20 years sobriety--the event lasted from noon- 7pm and also included dinner. History of the Cosmopolitan Club (as it was printed in the programs): In April of 1945, Mrs. Ella B. Gant, a non-alcoholic arranged a meeting between Charlie G., a white man and sober member of A.A., And Jim S., a black man and an alcoholic who was still drinking. Mrs. Gant had known Charlie when he was drinking and he had told her about how AA had helped him. Upon hearing his story, she arranged for the two to meet. Out of that meeting was born the Washington Colored Group, the first Black AA group. The group survived with the help of Charlie G., Bill A., and Chase H. of the Old Central Group; DC's pioneer group of Alcoholics Anonymous. Stories of our group have been handed down from one generation of recovering drunks to the next. One story is that sometimes there would be no one at the meetings, except Jim and his wife, Vi S. Jim S., in his story, reveals that "They came, many of them (white AA's) and stuck by us and told us how to hold meetings, and how to do 12 Step work. Most of the 12 Step work was done at a new alcoholic clinic located at 7th & P Street, N.W. It was at this clinic that the group met Julius S., whose sobriety dates from 1945 and who is the sole survivor of that small band of recovering people. The groups' first meeting were held in the home of Mrs. Gant. They then met several times in the home of Mrs. Gant's mother. The Group of approximately 15 men & women, with sobriety ranging from a few weeks to one year, grew to nearly 30 members in the second year. Jim S. began to seek space for a meeting. He approached several ministers who praised what he was doing, but they did not offer space. He then approached the Anthony Bowen YMCA at 12th & S Streets, N.W. The "Y" rented a room to the group for $2.00 per night. In this second year, the group's name was changed from the Washington Colored Group to the Cosmopolitan Group of Alcoholics Anonymous--an indicator that all suffering alcoholics were welcome regardless of race. That group tradition remains in effect today. Often, a YMCA employee would come to the meeting room door, and beckon two or more members, then leave the room, on their way to "Carry the Message" These pioneers began to take their message to other cities: Baltimore, Philadelphia, New York City and Fredericksburg, VA. Members of the group also included traveling sales men, with all the energy of a crusaders, who took the message up and down the East Coast as well. In 1947, the House District Committee of the 80th Congress held the first Federal hearing dealing with alcoholism and the need for rehabilitation. At the hearing, Julius S., of our group testified that he had not had a drink for 18 months! The Traditions, one of which deals with Anonymity were confirmed by the A.A. Convention in 1950. In 1950, the DC Police Court allowed AA into the courtroom where meetings were held on Saturday mornings. Bob C., a probation officer, began sending probationers to the Cosmopolitan Group. At a later date, attendance at the weekly AA meeting became one of the conditions of release. It was at the 1955 AA Convention, held in St. Louis, that our founder, Jim S., became the first black person to address a national AA Convention. In 1970 or '71, the group moved to the Petworth Church located on Grant Circle of Northwest Washington, and from there in 1975 to the Peoples' Congregational Church. Currently, we meet at the Emory Methodist Church every Monday and Friday now at 8:oopm. We've been here since April, 1993. Jim S.'s story reveals theat in the first fev month s of his sobriety, he gathered up alcoholics in an attempt to save the world. He wanted to give this new "something" to everyone who had a problem. Well, his story concludes, "We didn't save the world, but we did manage to help some individuals." The Cosmopolitan Group would like to acknowledge the research and time put forth by Dicker S. in compiling this paper. Best, Cindy Miller Sunday Morning Group at the 4021 Clubhouse Philadelphia, PA -cm `·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º> - - - - On Jun 2, 2009, at 6:32 PM, Glenn Chesnut wrote: > > > WASHINGTON, D.C. > > Jim's Story in the Big Book (Jim Scott MD, > Washington, DC). Some regard this as having > been the first black AA group: April 1945. > > Big Book, 2nd edition #471, 3rd edition #483, > 4th edition 232 > > http://www.a-1associates.com/westbalto/HISTORY_PAGE/Authors.htm > > (or http://silkworth.net/aabiography/storyauthors.html ) > > This account says (but without giving a date): > > "When repairing an electric outlet for a > friend, to earn some drinking money, he met > Ella G., whom he had known years before but > didn't recognize. Ella arranged for Jim to > meet 'Charlie G.' who became his sponsor. > Charlie was a white man. The following Sunday > he met with Ella, Charlie, and three or four > others at Ella's house. 'That was the first > meeting of a colored group in A.A.,' so far > as Jim knew." > > "Jim spoke at the 'God as We Understand Him' > meeting held Sunday morning at the International > Convention in St. Louis in 1955. Bill wrote in > 'A.A. Comes of Age:'" > > "'Deep silence fell as Dr. Jim S., the A.A. > speaker, told of his life experience and the > serious drinking that led to the crises which > had brought about his spiritual awakening. > He re-enacted for us his own struggle to start > the very first group among Negroes, his own > people. Aided by a tireless and eager wife, > he had turned his home into a combined hospital > and A.A. meeting place, free to all. He told > how early failure had finally been transformed > under God's grace into amazing success, we who > listened realized that A.A., not only could > cross seas and mountains and boundaries of > language and nation but could surmount obstacles > of race and creed as well.'" > > Bob Pearson, Manuscript of A.A. World History, > page 44, gives a date: > > "The Washington Colored Group was founded in > April '45 by Jimmy S. It later changed its > name to the Cosmopolitan Group to convey the > fact that it was 'a group for all people, all > races; it doesn't matter who you are.'" > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5754. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: First black AA group was in Washington D.C. -- or Chicago? From: arcchi88 . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/3/2009 9:22:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Greetings: According to the history of the Evans Avenue Group, which is printed every year on the program for their annual banquet, Earl Redmond did get sober in March 1945. He lived on Evans Avenue at the time, which is where the group got its name. They started meeting on a regular basis from that time on. I have also heard that St. Louis had a black group in the mid 40's as well. The Evans Avenue group has produced many long timers. One that I know of just passed with 62 years of sobriety. The annual banquet has had featured speakers such as Bill Dotson (AA #3), Earl Treat (Founder in Chicago), Judge Touhy (Why We Were Chosen), etc. Tom C - - - - --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Glenn Chesnut wrote: > > CHICAGO: > > Chicago however appears to have had a black AA > group started a month earlier, in March 1945: > > http://hindsfoot.org/Nblack3.html > > GLENN: Now what year did you come into A.A. > in Chicago? > > BILL WILLIAMS: I think it 'uz, umn .... > > JIMMY H.: Forty-five .... It was December '45. > Cause [Earl] Redmond came in in March, you told > me .... > > BILL WILLIAMS: But anyway, I know Redmond > came in in March, and I came in that following > December. > > GLENN: So when you came to South Bend [in 1948] > you had about four or five years sobriety behind > you? You had a good program by then. > > BILL WILLIAMS: Oh yeah, I was pretty solid. I > knew by that time that it was going to work . . . . > > GLENN: Now when you came into A.A. in Chicago, > in 1945, did you hit trouble there too? Was > there a color bar .... there in Chicago in > 1945? I don't know anything about Chicago. > > BILL WILLIAMS: Oh yeah! Yeah, it was the same > thing. It's still prejudiced, even now [1999]. > > GLENN: How did you deal with that? In Chicago, > in 1945? > > BILL WILLIAMS: Well, I was born in Texas. > > RAYMOND: He's a cowboy! [Laughter] > ____________________________________ > > So what further information can our AA historians > from Washington D.C. and Chicago give us? I > know that in Chicago, the Evans Avenue group > still meets, although they have moved to a new > location. I have visited their new building, > and there were photographs of Earl Redmond > and so on, and there also appeared to be a > lot of other material there of great archival > significance. > > Glenn C. > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5755. . . . . . . . . . . . Origins of AA in San Francisco From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/2/2009 11:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII They say "more will be revealed..." The San Francisco Group was the first child of the New Jersey Group! Below is part of the research I had done for the Timeline of the First 25 AA Groups. I was recently adding some updates to a new "First One Hundred" list I am working on when I realized that Ray W. from "New York" is actually Ray Wood from Orange, New Jersey - a "First One Hundred" pioneer member of the New Jersey Group with a sobriety date of March 1939. He is listed on the group survey of 1/1/1940 with 9 months of continuous sobriety. It was Ray that started AA in San Francisco while on a business trip November 21, 1939. (From the Timeline of the first 25 AA Groups) A.A Group # 10 San Francisco, California So it happened, that when an AA member from New York, Ray W., came to San Francisco for a sales training course in November of that year he brought with him a list of those who had made inquiries. Among them was Mrs. Oram's boarder, Ted. From his room in the Clift Hotel on Geary Street, Ray called those on his list. He finally arranged for some of them to meet with him in his room on Tuesday, November 21, 1939. It was there that the first meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous on the West Coast was held. Aside from Ray and Ted, there were two others present, Don B. and Dave L. and the meeting lasted about two hours. As Ray mentioned, it had become clear that they would need to form an AA group in San Francisco, where they all could meet regularly. Mrs. Oram offered her kitchen as a meeting place. So shortly before Christmas, 1939, the first AA group, the "San Francisco Group" began meeting in Mrs. Oram's kitchen, and later in various members' homes. In October of 1940 they found a more or less permanent site for their meetings in the Telegraph Hill Community House at 1736 Stockton Street in North Beach. (www.aasf.org) AA's First Meeting on the West Coast (Adapted from C.N.C.A History, prepared by the CNCA Archives Committee, September 1984) and more details.... Bob Pearson - Unpublished AA History Manuscript. San Francisco and Northern California The first contact with AA from San Francisco was a letter from Mrs. Zelpa Oram who wrote the New York office following the Gabriel Heatter broadcast in April 1939. She was seeking help for one of her boarders, Ted C, a sometime traveling salesman and full time alcoholic. In his mid-30s, he had been in and out of jails and state hospitals for years. Mrs. Oram ordered a Big Book which arrived in June, and Ted sobered up in July. The Liberty magazine article in September attracted a number of inquiries from Northern California, who were advised by the New York office Ray W, an eastern salesman, would be in San Francisco to meet with them. On November 21, 1939, Ray met in his room at the Clift Hotel with Ted C, Don B and Dave L Ray told them about the AA program and the Big Book and turned over to them several more names to call. God Bless, John Barton Area 44 H & A Chair The Big Book Study Group of South Orange, New Jersey IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5756. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Wednesday removed from 4th ed. He Sold Himself Short From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/4/2009 5:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII At 09:43 5/22/2009, garylock7008 wrote: >Speaking of changes made in the 4th edition of >the Big Book - I am wondering why they took the >word "Wednesday" out of Earl T's story ("He >Sold Himself Short," page 262/263) in the 4th >Edition, in all the printings? > >Back in the past this was the only day >[afternoon] a doctor in the town I grew up >in - in Nova Scotia - ever took off. > >To me it tells of the sacrifice and dedication >Dr. Bob and his family had made for the >fellowship! With the stroke of a keyboard - >a part of history is gone. I was looking for something in Bill Dotson's story, A.A. Number Three. I noticed on p. 190 that three little changes similar to the one Gary mentioned were made in the 4th Edition. Two phrases were removed, one phrase was relocated in the same sentence, and "non-existent was changed to "nonexistent". I know that over eighty changes were made in the original edition of the Big Book. Many of these were correcting errors, and some reflected the burgeoning membership, but the wording of a Step was changed and "former alcoholic" and "ex-alcoholic" were changed to "ex-problem drinkers". I wonder if there is a tabulation of the changes made from the 3rd Edition to the 4th? Tommy H in Baton Rouge IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5757. . . . . . . . . . . . History of sponsorship From: Charlie C . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/5/2009 8:44:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have been revisiting the "Little Red Book," a title discussed here at times, and was struck by the way it recommends doing one's 5th Step with a non-AA, e.g. a clergyman, doctor... In discussing the 8th Step, it mentions that one may want to refer to "older members" when unsure of how to proceed with amends. In neither place is a sponsor mentioned. My understanding is that the Little Red Book represents AA practice of the 1940s, in particular that developed by Dr. Bob. Is this correct? Most of all though, I am curious: when did sponsorship as we know it today become the norm? When did the tradition, suggested in the Big Book, of discussing one's 5th Step with an outsider become the exception, and using one's sponsor the rule? Are there any interviews with old timers or other records documenting this shift? Thanks, I learn so much from this group! Charlie C. IM = route20guy IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5758. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: First black AA group was in Washington D.C. -- or Chicago? From: Al Welch . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/6/2009 4:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have no known way to confirm the following told to me by an old timer that has passed on. Since the subject of black groups has come up, I was told that 48 years ago there were very few black AA groups in Baltimore & Washington DC and they decided to get together once a year for "A Gratitude Breakfast." Sometime after the beginning one it was opened to whites as well. I attended my first Gratitude Breakfast in 1979 being held at the Social Security Headquarters cafeteria and have not missed one since. The most recent one was February 22, 2009 and held at La Fountain Bleu in Glen Burnie. (Yes, it has gone upscale) Unfortunately, the roots of this breakfast have been largely forgotten or deemed not worth passing on.......... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cindy Miller" To: Sent: Friday, June 05, 2009 11:18 AM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: First black AA group was in Washington D.C. -- or Chicago? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5759. . . . . . . . . . . . First Latin American country with an AA group From: nuevenueve@ymail.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/5/2009 4:28:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Group, When and which was the first Latin American country receiving the AA message? Best Regards Hugo IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5760. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: First black AA group in Washington D.C. From: James Flynn . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/6/2009 5:16:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have heard of the Metropolis Club in DC and have been to a few meetings there. But I have never heard of the Cosmopolitan Club. Does it still exist? Sincerely, Jim F. --- On Fri, 6/5/09, Cindy Miller wrote: On Sunday, March 22, 2009, members of my HomeGroup rented a van and we drove to Washington, DC - where the Reeves Club was holding its' "4th Annual AA Old-Timers Speakers Jamm" This event was also a celebration of the Cosmopolitan Club, and every hour, the group read portions of "Jim's Story". The event was absolutely outstanding- -each speaker had over 20 years sobriety--the event lasted from noon- 7pm and also included dinner. History of the Cosmopolitan Club (as it was printed in the programs): In April of 1945, Mrs. Ella B. Gant, a non-alcoholic arranged a meeting between Charlie G., a white man and sober member of A.A., And Jim S., a black man and an alcoholic who was still drinking. Mrs. Gant had known Charlie when he was drinking and he had told her about how AA had helped him. Upon hearing his story, she arranged for the two to meet. Out of that meeting was born the Washington Colored Group, the first Black AA group. The group survived with the help of Charlie G., Bill A., and Chase H. of the Old Central Group; DC's pioneer group of Alcoholics Anonymous. Stories of our group have been handed down from one generation of recovering drunks to the next. One story is that sometimes there would be no one at the meetings, except Jim and his wife, Vi S. Jim S., in his story, reveals that "They came, many of them (white AA's) and stuck by us and told us how to hold meetings, and how to do 12 Step work. Most of the 12 Step work was done at a new alcoholic clinic located at 7th & P Street, N.W. It was at this clinic that the group met Julius S., whose sobriety dates from 1945 and who is the sole survivor of that small band of recovering people. The groups' first meeting were held in the home of Mrs. Gant. They then met several times in the home of Mrs. Gant's mother. The Group of approximately 15 men & women, with sobriety ranging from a few weeks to one year, grew to nearly 30 members in the second year. Jim S. began to seek space for a meeting. He approached several ministers who praised what he was doing, but they did not offer space. He then approached the Anthony Bowen YMCA at 12th & S Streets, N.W. The "Y" rented a room to the group for $2.00 per night. In this second year, the group's name was changed from the Washington Colored Group to the Cosmopolitan Group of Alcoholics Anonymous--an indicator that all suffering alcoholics were welcome regardless of race. That group tradition remains in effect today. Often, a YMCA employee would come to the meeting room door, and beckon two or more members, then leave the room, on their way to "Carry the Message" These pioneers began to take their message to other cities: Baltimore, Philadelphia, New York City and Fredericksburg, VA. Members of the group also included traveling sales men, with all the energy of a crusaders, who took the message up and down the East Coast as well. In 1947, the House District Committee of the 80th Congress held the first Federal hearing dealing with alcoholism and the need for rehabilitation. At the hearing, Julius S., of our group testified that he had not had a drink for 18 months! The Traditions, one of which deals with Anonymity were confirmed by the A.A. Convention in 1950. In 1950, the DC Police Court allowed AA into the courtroom where meetings were held on Saturday mornings. Bob C., a probation officer, began sending probationers to the Cosmopolitan Group. At a later date, attendance at the weekly AA meeting became one of the conditions of release. It was at the 1955 AA Convention, held in St. Louis, that our founder, Jim S., became the first black person to address a national AA Convention. In 1970 or '71, the group moved to the Petworth Church located on Grant Circle of Northwest Washington, and from there in 1975 to the Peoples' Congregational Church. Currently, we meet at the Emory Methodist Church every Monday and Friday now at 8:oopm. We've been here since April, 1993. Jim S.'s story reveals theat in the first fev month s of his sobriety, he gathered up alcoholics in an attempt to save the world. He wanted to give this new "something" to everyone who had a problem. Well, his story concludes, "We didn't save the world, but we did manage to help some individuals. " The Cosmopolitan Group would like to acknowledge the research and time put forth by Dicker S. in compiling this paper. Best, Cindy Miller Sunday Morning Group at the 4021 Clubhouse Philadelphia, PA -cm `·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º> IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5761. . . . . . . . . . . . African-American Participation in AA Meetings From: David . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/6/2009 8:55:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Is anyone aware, in either local, district, area or international archives, or from personal experience, of any information concerning African-American participation in AA groups in America or other countries from approximately 1940 to 1970? Thanks so much for your input! IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5762. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: African-American Participation in AA Meetings From: Meritt Hutton . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/7/2009 9:33:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dr Bob and the Good Old Timers, pp 247-248, has a story concerning the first black group in Cleveland, Ohio. - - - - From the moderator: Oscar W. made a twelfth step call on a black woman, bringing a Big Book with him. But then the white AA's in Cleveland's Lake Shore Group refused to let her attend their meeting, so Oscar and some of the other white men who were sympathetic to her plight, set up a group in one of Cleveland's black neighborhoods, on Cedar Ave., and this group quickly grew to fifteen members. No date given, but it is in a part of the book which deals mostly with the 1940's. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5763. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: First Latin American country with an AA group From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/8/2009 5:32:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Mexico Yis, Shakey Mike Gwirtz - - - - So for example, in 1948, Bill Wilson and Father Ralph Pfau met in California, and took a trip to Mexico together to help the growth of AA in that country. Glenn C., Moderator - - - - In a message dated 6/6/2009 nuevenueve@ymail.com writes: Hi Group, When and which was the first Latin American country receiving the AA message? Best Regards Hugo IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5764. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: History of sponsorship From: Jay Lawyer . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/7/2009 9:37:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Charlie and group, We must remember that directions in the Big Book were for those members who received a copy of it in the mail and weren't near any group, or didn't have the luxury of being close to another group or member of AA. The book is just giving somewhat clear messages of who to look for in order to do the work. Remember at the time the Big Book was published there were only 3 groups. NY, Akron, and Cleveland. What were you to do? The Big Book explains it. Jay _____ From: Charlie C Sent: Friday, June 05, 2009 Subject: History of sponsorship I have been revisiting the "Little Red Book" ... and was struck by the way it recommends doing one's 5th Step with a non-AA, e.g. a clergyman, doctor .... When did the tradition, suggested in the Big Book, of discussing one's 5th Step with an outsider become the exception, and using one's sponsor the rule? Charlie C. IM = route20guy IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5765. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: First black AA group in Washington D.C. From: Michael F. Margetis . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/12/2009 8:03:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The Cosmoplotan group meets twice a week in NW Washington DC. on Monday and Friday nights. Here's a link to the DC intergroup (WAIA) http://www.aa-dc.org/default.asp Mike Margetis Brunswick, MD - - - - James Flynn wrote: > > I have heard of the Metropolis Club in DC and > have been to a few meetings there. But I have > never heard of the Cosmopolitan Club. Does it > still exist? > > Sincerely, Jim F. > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5766. . . . . . . . . . . . Lessons From Rock Bottom From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/13/2009 9:25:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII AN INTERESTING ARTICLE ON A.A. FROM A NON-A.A. SOURCE "Lessons From Rock Bottom: The church can learn about grace from the recovery movement" By Philip Yancey (posted 7/11/00 on Christianity Today Online) In earlier times, some theologians wrote "natural theologies" by first explicating the wonders of nature and then gradually moving toward theism, revelation, and Christian doctrine. If I were writing a natural theology today, I think I would start with recovering alcoholics. It staggers me that psychiatrists, pharmacologists, and scientific reductionists cannot improve on a spiritual program devised by a couple of alcoholics 60 years ago. Anthropology, original sin, regeneration, sanctification -- the recovery movement contains within it seeds of all these doctrines. As an alcoholic once told me, "I publicly declare 'I am an alcoholic' whenever I introduce myself at group. It is a statement of failure, of helplessness, and surrender. Take a room of a dozen or so people, all of whom admit helplessness and failure, and it's pretty easy to see how God then presents Himself in that group." The historian of Alcoholics Anonymous titled his work Not-God because, he said, that stands as the most important hurdle an addicted person must surmount: to acknowledge, deep in the soul, not being God. No mastery of manipulation and control, at which alcoholics excel, can overcome the root problem; rather, the alcoholic must recognize individual helplessness and fall back in the arms of the Higher Power. "First of all, we had to quit playing God," concluded the founders of AA; and then allow God himself to "be God" in the addict's life, which involves daily, even moment-by-moment, surrender. Bill Wilson, the cofounder of Alcoholics Anonymous, reached the unshakable conviction, now a canon of Twelve-Step groups, that an alcoholic must "hit bottom" in order to climb upward. Wilson wrote his fellow strugglers, "How privileged we are to understand so well the divine paradox that strength rises from weakness, that humiliation goes before resurrection: that pain is not only the price but the very touchstone of spiritual rebirth." The Apostle Paul could not have phrased it better. The need for humble dependence continues throughout recovery. Although an alcoholic may pray desperately for the condition to go away, very few addicts report sudden, miraculous healing. Most battle temptation every day of their lives, experiencing grace not as a magic potion, rather as a balm whose strength is activated daily by conscious dependence on God. One alcoholic wrote me, "I know that I can go out and start drinking today and have all the sex I want with all the women I want and live in a state of continued drunkenness for quite some time. But there is a catch. I know firsthand all the misery and guilt that comes along with it. And that is something I want no part of. I have experienced guilt and misery so extreme that I didn't want to live anymore at all--and that, my friend, is why I would rather not have to take advantage of God's generosity in being willing to forgive me once again should I go that route. Plus, in my present life, every now and then I think I do manage to do God's will. And, when I do, then the rewards are so tremendous and satisfying that I get kind of addicted to that closeness to God. There is a common saying in AA: 'Religion is for people who believe in hell. Spirituality is for people who have been there.'" In correspondence with Bill Wilson, the psychiatrist Carl Jung remarked that it may be no accident that we refer to alcoholic drinks as "spirits." Perhaps, suggested Jung, alcoholics have a greater thirst for the spirit than other people, but it is all too often misdirected. Early in the AA program, two groups divided over the issue of perfectionism. One, an offshoot of the Oxford Group, insisted on "Four Absolutes" and required its members to commit to a strict Christian creed. The other, led by Bill Wilson, started with a dependence on grace, an acknowledgment that its members would never achieve perfection. Absolutes, said Wilson, either turned alcoholics away or gave them a dangerous feeling of "spiritual inflation." Over time, the perfectionist Oxford Group shriveled up and disappeared; grace-based AA has never stopped growing. We in the church have as much to learn from people in the recovery movement as we have to offer them. I was struck by one observation from an alcoholic friend of mine. "When I'm late to church, people turn around and stare at me with frowns of disapproval. I get the clear message that I'm not as responsible as they are. When I'm late to AA, the meeting comes to a halt and everyone jumps up to hug and welcome me. They realize that my lateness may be a sign that I almost didn't make it. When I show up, it proves that my desperate need for them won out over my desperate need for alcohol." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5767. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: African-American Participation in AA Meetings From: Cindy Miller . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/7/2009 9:17:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Probably the broadest search parameters I have ever seen!!! Good luck!! (But try to narrow things down a bit) -cm `·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º> - - - - From: Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com) Garrett A, not sure of spelling, then a past trustee. In the early eighties had about thirty two years sober. We had a woman member who's name escapes me who had well over thirty years sober in the early eighties. I am sure the DC members of the cosmopolitan group or the metropolis groups could name many people of that era. Norman B from the Washington area was famous for his work with Montgomery General Hospital and certainly along the east coast goes back at least till 1970. Our Washington Area Inter Group had a very large percentage of Of African Americans who had responsible position in our inter group. Of all the old timers in the Washington area it seems the ones with the longest sobriety were our African American members. - - - - On Jun 6, 2009, at 8:55 PM, David wrote: > > Is anyone aware, in either local, district, > area or international archives, or from > personal experience, of any information > concerning African-American participation > in AA groups in America or other countries > from approximately 1940 to 1970? > > Thanks so much for your input! IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5768. . . . . . . . . . . . Rowland Hazard in New Mexico From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/10/2009 8:48:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The latest issue of the Tularosa Basin Historical Society magazine, devoted to Rowland Hazard and his pottery factory, is now available. Ted mentioned this here earlier (and yes, they do spell the name "Roland," no one can get everything right). Local historian Janie Bell Furman has put together a complete history of Hazard's projects there, beautifully written and fully illustrated. I was transfixed, both by the story and by the extensive collections of photos. As Ms. Furman notes, Rowland fell in love with the area when he made a cross-country car trip and was delayed there by car trouble. His wife was in the process of divorcing him, and he had just been through one the most dangerous quack alcoholism cures on record (Furman is actually not aware of these last two details, but they may clarify his behavior somewhat). His devotion to the property really comes through in her writing. Rowland truly loved the hispanic and native cultures of the area. I suspect that there was a strong spiritual element to this, and that he needed a change from the eastern gentility in which he was raised. Maybe this explains some of the near-manic intensity of his approach to the project. He literally sold everything he had for that one pearl, and unfortunately he lost his investment. One of the mysteries cleared up by this article is the identity of Clarence Agnew, who brought Rowland back East to be hospitalized after a severe relapse in 1936. Rowland apparently never went back, and the property was eventually liquidated by his brother, who took over as administrator. Rowland's commitment to the Oxford Group developed gradually over the time he was building and operating the La Luz factory, and he continued to be active in the movement after that last (?) relapse. The name of the magazine is the "Pioneer," and it is available from the Society, phone number (575) 434-4438, email tbhs@zianet, snail mail Tularosa Basin Historical Society, 1301 N. White Sands Blvd., Alamogordo NM, 88310. They don't seem to have a significant web presence. Cora IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5769. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: History of sponsorship From: John Barton . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/13/2009 4:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Just an FYI, The Big Book was published on April 10, 1939 (according to the copyright). The Cleveland Group (Abby G - Group) was founded May 11, 1939. The two groups in existence when the Book was published were Akron and NY. God Bless - - - - Jay Lawyer wrote: Subject: RE: History of sponsorship > Remember at the time the Big Book was published > there were only 3 groups. NY, Akron, and > Cleveland. What were you to do? The Big Book > explains it. > > Jay IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5770. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: African-American Participation in AA Meetings From: James Flynn . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/15/2009 1:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I got sober in 1987 in the Rockville/Gaithersburg area and I remember Big Norm. He was legendary in the Mongomery County Maryland meetings. Many AA's in Montgomery County Maryland went through the Montgomery General's Rehab Program and had had encounters with Big Norm. He had a way of getting drunks who thought they were tough guys to see the light of reason mostly owning to his enormous size. Sincerely, Jim F. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5771. . . . . . . . . . . . Fresno AA History From: John Dunn . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/14/2009 11:33:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello All, Does anyone have information on the history of Fresno AA? I think it started in April 1946, but who carried the message? Thanks, John IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5772. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: History of sponsorship From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/12/2009 5:12:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII At 07:44 6/5/2009, Charlie C wrote: > I have been revisiting the "Little Red Book," a title discussed > here at times, and was struck by the way it recommends doing one's > 5th Step with a non-AA, e.g. a clergyman, doctor... In discussing > the 8th Step, it mentions that one may want to refer to "older > members" when unsure of how to proceed with amends. In neither > place is a sponsor mentioned. > > My understanding is that the Little Red Book represents AA > practice of the 1940s, in particular that developed by Dr. Bob. Is > this correct? I have read that Dr. Bob had input into the first six printings of the Little Red Book, 1946-1950, but I have yet to see any changes specifically attributed to him. That doesn't mean there aren't any, just that I am not aware of them. > > Most of all though, I am curious: when did sponsorship as we > know it today become the norm? When did the tradition, suggested in > the Big Book, of discussing one's 5th Step with an outsider become > the exception, and using one's sponsor the rule? Are there any > interviews with old timers or other records documenting this shift? > Thanks, I learn so much from this group! Use of outsiders is reiterated in the 12x12 starting at the bottom of p. 60, "Our next problem will be to discover the person in whom we are to confide," and admonishes us "to take much care, remembering that prudence is a virtue which carries a high rating." It goes on to say the person may be one who has "stayed dry," inferring he/she is in A.A. "This person may turn out to be one's sponsor, but not necessarily so," and it goes on to say the sponsor may not be the right person "for the more difficult and deeper revelations . . . a complete stranger may prove the best bet." I know some A.A.s who have been around for a long time who are aghast when reminded of this. Apparently, they feel it is their right to hear their sponsees' Fifth Steps. This would suggest the use of outsiders went into the middle 1950s. It also states that there may be things that one's sponsor doesn't need to know. Tommy H in Baton Rouge - - - - From: James Flynn (jdf10487 at yahoo.com) You could try to get sober on the book alone (once it was published) but most alcoholics could not get sober on the book alone, they need what Dr. Bob needed, another alcoholic who spoke his language. You see Dr. Bob was already a member of the Oxford Group prior to meeting Bill W. The Oxford Group principles were not enough for Dr. Bob to get sober, Dr, Bob needed Bill Wilson and Bill Wilson needed Dr. Bob for mutual support. Most of the alcoholics that got sober in the early days did not get sober with the book alone they were connected one of the few groups that existed back then. That is why Alcoholics Anonymous is described as a fellowship of men and woman who share their experience strength and hope with each other and not as a book published back in 1939. Sincerely, Jim F. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5773. . . . . . . . . . . . Sister Ignatia documents and photos From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/15/2009 3:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Fiona D. has posted two new sections in her collection of Sister Ignatia documents and photos: http://hindsfoot.org/ignatia5.html Sister Ignatia: her parents' marriage certificate. The Church Marriage Record for Sister Ignatia's parents, Patrick Gavin and Barbara Neary, who married on 29 January 1882. From Irish AA historian Fiona D. (County Mayo). http://hindsfoot.org/ignatia6.html The Fourth Earl of Lucan: Sister Ignatia was born on his estate in County Mayo in Ireland. From Irish AA historian Fiona D. (County Mayo). FOR THOSE WHO WISH TO LOOK AT THE FOUR PREVIOUS SECTIONS: http://hindsfoot.org/ignatia1.html Sister Ignatia's birthplace in Ireland. Photos of the just discovered ruins of the two-roomed stone cottage where Sister Ignatia Gavin, the Angel of Alcoholics Anonymous, was born on 1 January 1889 at Shanvalley, Burren, in County Mayo. Photos and description (13 July 2008) by the Irish AA historian Fiona D. http://hindsfoot.org/ignatia2.html More on Sister Ignatia's birthplace in Ireland: The Neary family's rental holdings in Griffith's Land Valuation of 1855. When Patrick Gavin and Barbara Neary (Ignatia's father and mother) got married, the couple set up housekeeping in a part of County Mayo where numerous members of the Neary family lived, renting land on the Earl of Lucan's estate. From Irish AA historian and archivist Fiona D. in County Mayo. http://hindsfoot.org/ignatia3.html Seven-year-old Ignatia sails from Ireland to America in 1896 Emigration records showing the Gavin family sailing from Queenstown (now Cobh) in Cork on the SS Indiana on 2 April 1896, arriving in Philadelphia on 17 April 1896, with photographs of the ship and harbor. From Irish AA historian Fiona D. (County Mayo). http://hindsfoot.org/ignatia4.html Sister Ignatia: baptismal record (birth certificate) and the passenger manifest for the SS Indiana Sister Ignatia's date of birth, as given in some of the older historical sources, needs to be corrected. Born Bridget Gavin, this photograph of her baptismal record shows that she was born on 1 January 1889. This is the date which should be used. Also photographs of the three sheets of the original passenger manifest showing Sister Ignatia and her family embarking on the SS Indiana. From Irish AA historian Fiona D. (County Mayo). IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5774. . . . . . . . . . . . Renner''s Beer in Akron, Ohio From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/15/2009 3:46:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII http://hindsfoot.org/archives.html (about two thirds of the way down the page) Photo of a Renner's Beer Wagon in Akron, Ohio When Prohibition ended, at 12:01 A.M., on April 7, 1933, in a persistent cold rain, a crowd of 2,000 people waited in line outside the George J. Renner Brewing Company's brewery on Forge Street in Akron to purchase some of the 5,000 cases of their Grossvater brand beer that were available at $3.25 per case. By noon the next day, 10,000 cases had been sold at the brewery and through shipments all over northeast Ohio and western Pennsylvania. Was it a Renner's beer which Dr. Bob had as his last drink? (Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers page 75) Is there any record of what his favorite brand of beer was? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5775. . . . . . . . . . . . Rowland Hazard with a W From: secondles . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/15/2009 4:25:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi All: Regards Rowland spelling .... in 2007 I got several deeds concerning Rowland from the Town records in Shaftsbury, Vermont and in all instances the spelling was with the "W" in 1930s. Les C - - - - "corafinch" wrote: > > The latest issue of the Tularosa Basin Histo- rical Society magazine, devoted to Rowland Hazard and his pottery factory, is now available .... and yes, they do spell the name "Roland," no one can get everything right .... - - - - From the moderator -- Rowland with a W is the correct spelling, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rowland_Hazard_III http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/5564 http://www.barefootsworld.net/aapeople.html Hazard, Rowland http://www.silkworth.net/aahistory_names/namesh.html Hazard, Rowland IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5776. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Rowland Hazard in New Mexico From: Dolores . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/15/2009 4:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi, I would like to know if Roland died sober? I somehow heard that he died drunk and would like the matter cleared. Dolores IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5777. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: African-American Participation in AA Meetings From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/15/2009 4:36:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Lou R., African-American, was elected Delegate from Eastern PA to the General Service Conference before 1970. His widow, Mary, may still be alive (she was a frequent and always welcomed Al-Anon speaker). The Archivist for Area 59 AA (Eastern Pennsylvania) might have information on Lou. - - - - > On Jun 6, 2009, at 8:55 PM, David wrote: > > > > Is anyone aware, in either local, district, > > area or international archives, or from > > personal experience, of any information > > concerning African-American participation > > in AA groups in America or other countries > > from approximately 1940 to 1970? > > > > Thanks so much for your input! IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5778. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: First Latin American country with an AA group From: Angela Corelis . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/9/2009 8:15:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Grapevine, October 1996 AA Started in Mexico In March 1941, Jack Alexander's article about Alcoholics Anonymous appeared in the Saturday Evening Post. Among the first people in Mexico to read it and respond by contacting the New York AA Headquarters was an American named Arthur H. who was a resident of Mexico City . Arthur wanted to find out more about this miraculous cure for alcoholism. One year later the mail from Arthur ended and New York never received any more news about him. About that time a Mexican named Jorge S. living in Mexico City also wrote to New York requesting information. He'd learned about AA from reading a magazine published by the office of public education in Mexico. After receiving the information, Jorge felt motivated to start an AA meeting. An AA from Los Angeles got Jorge's address from New York and when he went to Mexico for business he paid a visit to Jorge. Jorge felt greatly strengthened by this contact but early in 1942, the contact with Jorge disappeared. In 1944 Gilberto M. received the AA message in Los Angeles when he was visiting with his wife Francisca, trying to find a solution to his drinking problem. There he got the addresses of the New York Office and the Cleveland intergroup. Gilberto returned to his home in Monterrey in the northern state of Nuevo Leon. His wife Francisca proved to be an extraordinary woman. She was worried about Gilberto's sobriety and she established a strong communication through the mail with New York. She spread the news in Monterrey and all over Mexico from August 1945 to June 1946. She translated several AA booklets, translations that were published in local newspapers. Some beer manufacturers tried to stop the publications, but they were too late, thank God. The Monterrey Group was born and with it a new life was opened to all the alcoholics in Mexico. The group was subsequently visited by AAs from the U.S., especially Cleveland. In 1946 the Monterrey Group had twenty-five members and appeared in the AA World Directory. In June 1945 and September 1946 the AA Grapevine published articles with news from the group. (Troubles began, caused by shortages of Spanish literature, and when the American visitors failed to come often, the Mexican AAs were dismayed. By the end of the forties, Gilberto M. was the solitary member of the Monterrey Group.) In July 1946 an AA named Lester F. from Chattanooga and New Orleans moved to Mexico City and wrote to New York requesting information about starting a group. By September 1946, two other AAs, named Lester and Pauline, who were living in Mexico City, got in touch with New York . A Mexican lawyer, Fernando I. got their address from New York and soon a Mexican doctor, Jesus A., joined them, and the Mexico City Group was born on September 25, 1946. In the April 1947 issue of the Grapevine, an article appeared called "The Mexico City Group Welcomes Visitors." This group is known today as English Speaking Group, and it still opens its doors to all visitors. Another significant event took place about the same time in Mexico City -- the visit of Ricardo P. an AA from Cleveland, Ohio. He was honorary consul of Mexico in that city and he had one special reason for his visit: passing on the AA message to Mexican society. Ricardo later translated the Big Book to Spanish, work that took him three years to complete. Finally he gave the finished translation to Bill W., and Bill took his personal Big Book and gave it to Ricardo, writing a beautiful note in it. The first Spanish-speaking group that survived permanently was the Grupo Hospital Central Militar (Military Hospital Central Group). It was founded in December 1956 by a Major Joaquin B. and his wife Irma. They were helped by the Mexico City Group members, especially by a Mexican member, Carlos C. These three people translated the Big Book; their translation was published by the New York office in 1962 and is still in use. In 1957, in my homeland of Merida, Yucatan, two AAs were working to start a group and by 1959 the Grupo Panteon Florido (Flowered Cemetery Group) was registered in New York. Our group had its meetings in the installations of a graveyard, and it was said that this was the only meeting in Mexico ever visited by Bill W. He was supposed to have exclaimed: "It's good that we're meeting in a cemetery so we know that our problem is of life and death. We can choose to be here or out in a grave." By that time in the west of the country, in Guadalajara, Jalisco, there was one English-speaking group, Chapala 100, founded by Harry O. He dreamed of forming a Spanish-speaking group. Finally he met Estanislao S. and together they formed the Grupo Tapatio in 1961. It was the start of AA in the center and west of the country. In September 1960 Reader's Digest magazine in Spanish reprinted an article called "The Strange Cure of Alcoholics Anonymous," by Paul De Kruif. It was read by a lot of alcoholics and motivated some of them to write New York asking for information. They received literature and suggestions to start meetings. So AA meetings started in some cities like Tampico, San Francisco del Rincón, and Morelia. The nineteen-sixties were distinguished by increasing numbers of groups. I have to mention an American AA, Gordon Mc., who made a tremendous effort to pass the message into Central America, Mexico, Caribbean countries, Argentina, and Colombia. This effort was called the Caribbean crusade. The work of this man succeeded through the sharing of experience through letters, transmitting public information to authorities and professionals, and much more. In 1964 intergroup offices in Mexico City and Guadalajara were founded, and later in Tampico and Merida. Also in 1964, national congresses began to be held twice a year. In 1969 the first Mexican conference took place and in December of the same year our General Service Office was started. Since then, every four years our AA population has doubled. God has blessed us with one of the biggest demographic explosions in the AA world. Mexico has the second largest AA population after the U.S. It would be a lie if I told you that everything is okay. We have troubles, maybe because we AAs are troublesome -- or I should say, we Mexican AAs. In 1950, when the AA Traditions were approved, some Mexican AAs thought that they were made for the Anglo way of thinking, and in 1954 they started a movement called AMAR (Mexican Alcoholics in Recuperation Association). AA has good relations with them. In 1963 another movement began: CRAMAC (Rehabilitation Centers of Mexican Alcoholics Association). In 1974 several groups called 24 Horas (24 Hours) started up, working to give lodging and food to chronic and poor alcoholics. Around 1980 a separatist movement was formed, called Sección Mexico (Mexican Section). It was begun by some former members of the General Service Office. In 1985 this movement caused the separation of eight service areas. Mexico is celebrating its 50th Anniversary with great faith, as our members and groups are growing in numbers and in strength, experience, and hope. We are used to rowing against the current and in the war against alcoholism know that there are either a lot of battles to fight or a lot of bottles to drink. Fernando Q. Mexico City IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5779. . . . . . . . . . . . World Service Meeting From: arun_shelar2007 . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/16/2009 4:04:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Can anybody give me link to find out WSM final reports and for brief history of World Service Meeting? Arun IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5780. . . . . . . . . . . . Archives workshop in Pennsylvania Aug. 8 2009 From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/15/2009 12:01:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There will be an Archives Workshop in Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania on Saturday, Aug. 8, 2009. Many local and not so local Archives, Archivists, AA Historians, AA History Lovers, and those interested in learning more about our history are invited to attend. It starts at 9 AM and runs till the afternoon. There is always room for many more. I will send more information as soon as it becomes available. Yours in Service, Shakey Mike Gwirtz (also going to National Archives Workshop -- Sept. 24-27th, 2009 Woodland Hills, in the Los Angeles area http://www.aanationalarchivesworkshop.com/ ) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5781. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Rowland Hazard in New Mexico From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/15/2009 4:32:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I believe $15.00 plus $5.00 postage and handling, 52 pp, 8 1/2 x 11, numerous illustrations of pottery. - - - - From: corafinch@yahoo.com AAHL Message 5768 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/5768 > > The latest issue of the Tularosa Basin Historical Society magazine, devoted to Rowland Hazard and his pottery factory, is now available. > > The name of the magazine is the "Pioneer," and it is available from the Society, phone number (575) 434-4438, email tbhs@zianet, snail mail Tularosa Basin Historical Society, 1301 N. White Sands Blvd., Alamogordo NM, 88310. > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5782. . . . . . . . . . . . Australian Archives publication From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/15/2009 12:37:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A publication called "An Encyclopedia for Alcoholics Anonymous" has been produced by the Central Service Archives Department of AA Service Office in New South Wales, Australia. The Foreword by David W.(Penrith) states, "This book is intended to bring together in one place as much information, about the twelve step program, its history, events, lore and other information that may be of concern to people that are interested with the Alcoholics Anonymous philosophy. To record the people who pioneered the concepts of the Fellowship (both non-alcoholic and alcoholic) in the U.S.A. and Australia." I do not know the cost but the mailing address is: NSW Central Service Office 127 Edwin St. North Croydon, NSW, 2132 Australia I have looked over the book and it is an excellent history of A.A. 'Down Under.' My good friend Ron C., Australian Archivist and past Trustee, and David W., Co Archivist, have put the A to Z history together so that it is enjoyable for those new and old to AA History. The book is dedicated to "The Memory of Lois Wilson and Anne Smith, whose Love and Patience made the advent of Alcoholics Anonymous Possible." Many references to the letters of the Australian AA Archives are included. To those of you who do not know, the first meeting of A.A. in Australia was October 16, 1946. Australian A.A. was also responsible, along with a Philadelphian, Conor F. of Philadelphia, Pennsylvia, for the beginnings of AA in Europe: Ireland in 1946. Conor read an article by Father Tom Dunlea in the "Evening Mail" saying that AA was desperately needed in Ireland. After being told "there are no alcoholics in Ireland," Conor was given a "Brit" by the name of Sackville M. and was told by Dr. Moore of St. Patrick's Hospital (via Eva Jennings, a non-alcoholic social worker) that if he could get this man sober he could get anyone sober. Much thanks to A.A. in Australia for producing a wonderful and interesting history of A.A. Yours in Service, Shakey Mike Gwirtz Phila, PA. USA - - - - See Sackville M.'s story in the Big Book, "The Career Officer" (2nd edition p. 523, 3rd edition p. 517). For a short bio, see: http://www.a-1associates.com/westbalto/HISTORY_PAGE/Authors.htm IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5783. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Rowland Hazard in New Mexico From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/16/2009 8:46:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Did Rowland Hazard die sober? So far as I know, there is no one alive who can answer that question from personal knowledge. His granddaughter in California was born in the last year of Rowland's life, after her own father's death; her mother, Rowland's daughter-in-law, died a few years ago. I have in any case been unable to get in touch with her. Rowland's surviving son Charles died in the 1990s -- his two other sons died in WW2, his daughter in 1954, her son (in any case born after his grandfather's death) was killed in Vietnam in 1967. Rowland's wife Helen survived him less than a year. Charles's son Rowland is, I believe, a doctor and teacher in Vermont, but even if he were contacted, I'm not at all sure he'd be able to help. Rowland III never joined AA so far as I know. He died at his office in December 1945, as you know. Since there are some indications that Rowland may have used alcohol as a way of getting in touch with the Spirit World (as with his late friend Charles Aldrich in 1933-34), and since he lost one son in 1944 and one in 1945, I myself think it likely he would have used alcohol (but possibly something else, given the southwestern connection) to try to communicate with them before he died in December 1945 -- but that's only my supposition. And in any case he might have been sober again, if only for a short while, when he died. I see no way of clearing the matter. Of course, if the question is, did he stay sober after he went to Jung (in 1926-8), we know the answer is no. If it is, did he stay sober after his work with the Oxford Group and the Businessman's Committee and Sam Shoemaker, the answer is uncertain, but probably no. But again, did he die sober? My guess is he hadn't had a drink for a while, but how long that while was, I have no way of knowing. - - - - > From: dolli@dr-rinecker.de > Subject: Re: Rowland Hazard in New Mexico > > Hi, I would like to know if Roland died sober? > I somehow heard that he died drunk and would > like the matter cleared. Dolores > - - - - Richard M. Dubiel, The Road to Fellowship http://hindsfoot.org/kDub1.html http://hindsfoot.org/kDub2.html p. 66 "We do know that Hazard did not remain sober throughout his life, and did drink again after 1934." p. 78 "Hazard’s later years seem to have been prosperous enough, although he never did join Alcoholics Anonymous.*** In 1936 he became a member of the Episcopal Church and remained active in several of its organizations. Throughout the latter part of his troubled life, Hazard relied on the fellowship of the Oxford Group (including activities such as his work with Ebby Thatcher in 1934) to aid and comfort him in his struggle with alcohol. It was fellowship that helped him even toward the end of his life, when he was being returned to New York after his 1936 binge." ***Note 185, p. 162 "The only dark spot occurred in August 1936 when Rowland had a serious drinking bout. A packet of correspondence of Rowland’s brother Thomas documents the binge in New Mexico and Rowland’s return trip to New York, see Thomas P. Hazard Papers, Series 2, Subseries 3: Rowland Hazard III files, RIHS. Stattler cites one letter that proposed enlisting the aid of an Oxford Grouper, Shep C. [Shep Cornell], to help Rowland." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5784. . . . . . . . . . . . History of AA in the Philippines From: Patricia . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/15/2009 9:46:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does anyone have an account of the history of AA in the Philippines? thanks Patricia IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5785. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: World Service Meeting From: M.J. Johnson . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/16/2009 12:40:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII An overview of WSM history is available here: http://www.aa-intergroup.org/cpc/art_worldsvc.html Not sure about the final reports... - - - - On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 4:04 AM, arun_shelar2007 wrote: > Can anybody give me link to find out WSM final > reports and for brief history of World Service > Meeting? > > Arun > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5786. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: African-American Participation in AA Meetings From: Cindy Miller . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/16/2009 9:00:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Louis R. was a very important figure in our Area 59 history. He traveled the state in the early 60's--encouraging and facilitating the process of setting up the state service structure. He travelled with Ted Rothchild-who was then the Area delegate and Dick Caron. (Dick's importance in Pennsylvania AA history is a whole other story...perhaps Jared could chime in here! ) Lou became the Area 59 delegate for '66/'67, and was a personal friend of Bill W. Mary, his widow, is still VERY active in Al-Anon, and has 53 years, I believe (may be wrong on this one). Lou's son and grandson are also AA members. I interviewed her in the late 90's, and she donated some of Lou's papers and a tape of him speaking at the 16th Indiana State Convention in April, 1968. Some of the correspondence concerned a shameful incident where the committee of a Delaware State Convention (I think) wanted to deny a black speaker .... And this was the late '60's. Louis cited the 3rd Tradition -- the letters flew back-and-forth, with the result that Louis did end up speaking--but he was VERY hurt. I passed these papers and tape on to the then Eastern PA Archivist, but don't know where they are now. Cindy Miller Philadelphia, PA - - - - On Jun 15, 2009, at 4:36 PM, J. Lobdell wrote: > > Lou R., African-American, was elected Delegate > from Eastern PA to the General Service Conference > before 1970. His widow, Mary, may still be > alive (she was a frequent and always welcomed > Al-Anon speaker). The Archivist for Area 59 AA > (Eastern Pennsylvania) might have information > on Lou. > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5787. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Australian Archives publication From: Fiona Dodd . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/16/2009 6:16:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Conor F was not "given a Brit by the name of Sackville M." Conor F was introduced to Richard P by Dr Moore. Fiona IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5788. . . . . . . . . . . . Fr. Pfau and Bill W. trip to Mexico From: nuevenueve@ymail.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/17/2009 1:23:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello Group: Is there any tracking or approximate working schedule of Bill W. and Fr.Pfau's visit to Mexico in 1948? Thanks. - - - - A quick answer from Glenn C: Fr. Pfau's autobiography (Prodigal Shepherd) unfortunately gives no information at all of where they went in Mexico. A researcher could make notes on that section of the book and probably narrow the time of the trip down to the specific month, and maybe even the part of the month, by process of elimination -- i.e., it had to be after certain events dated such-and-such (such as Fr. Pfau's first AA talk in Texas) but before certain other events dated such-and-such (such as other talks which he gave later that year). We're talking about the first real vacation that Fr. Pfau took (at the urging of his sponsor Doherty Sheerin) after he got sober. Fr. Pfau headed out to the west coast, took a wrong turn in Texas, and ended up being asked to speak in the AA meeting in the town in Texas where he stopped, exhausted, for the night. Fr. Pfau's talk was so successful, that it was the start of his career speaking to AA groups all over the U.S. and Canada. He did finally make it to California on that trip. That was where he met up with Bill W., and the two of them became good friends. Past that point (establishing the date in 1948 more precisely) the next step would be to check in the New York AA Archives, where there may well be letters and documents talking about where Bill W. was at that time in 1948. So, can anybody in the group help us out? Does anyone know about Bill W.'s travel schedule during this period? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5789. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: African-American Participation in AA Meetings From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/17/2009 9:53:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dick C. was the third Delegate from (Eastern) Pennsylvania, and while he is well-known in the field of rehabilitation and established his own rehab (which did not originally but now does bear his name), but I shall refer to him here as Dick C. His predecessors as Delegate, George R. of Jenkintown (chosen by Bill, I believe on the advice of John P. L., later Trustee 1957-61) and Aaron Burr B. of Bethlehem (chosen by Bill, I believe on the advice of Yev G.), were, as noted, chosen from the top down. Dick realized the importance of the 1954 Conference Action giving the right of election to what we now call the GSRs and in his mimeographed newsletter Chit Chat reminded the GSRs (then called GRs) of their right to choose the next Delegate, at a Meeting to be held at a place and time of his choosing (in Reading PA, his town, Nov 1954). He was duly elected, despite having (I believe) less than the recommended length of sobriety. At that time Bill W was still hopeful that the Area (as we now call it) centering on Harrisburg PA would be separated from (Eastern) Pennsylvania, centered on Philadelphia and containing Allentown-Bethlehem-Easton and Scranton-Wilkes-Barre. The new "Area" was apparently to comprise the seventeen current Districts in Eastern PA which were then in Area (we would call it District) 5 of the "State" of [Eastern] Pennsylvania (Western Pennsylvania was considered a separate "State"). But the Reading region would have been in the Harrisburg "Area" (as we now call it), and Dick wanted to be Delegate from the whole of (Eastern) Pennsylvania -- and he was, and Bill's desire for three Pennsylvania Areas goes unfulfilled to this day. Not only was Dick elected Delegate for 1955-56, but he was instrumental in the election of most of the delegates in the 1960s, including both Ted R. and Lou R. (and Paul O., who worked for him, and indeed just about every Delegate from Eastern PA until Lenore M. in 1971-2 -- I think those were her dates). Moreover, there are still active members of A.A. in Eastern PA who knew Dick C., including one who was once his sponsor. But of course Dick's also important for his rehab and his foundation. More later -- JL > To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > From: cm53@earthlink.net > Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 09:00:05 -0400 > Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: African-American Participation in AA Meetings > > Louis R. was a very important figure in our Area 59 history. He > traveled the state in the early 60's--encouraging and facilitating > the process of setting up the state service structure. He travelled > with Ted Rothchild-who was then the Area delegate and Dick Caron. > (Dick's importance in Pennsylvania AA history is a whole other > story...perhaps Jared could chime in here! ) > > Lou became the Area 59 delegate for '66/'67, and was a personal > friend of Bill W. Mary, his widow, is still VERY active in Al-Anon, > and has 53 years, I believe (may be wrong on this one). Lou's son and grandson are also AA members. > > I interviewed her in the late 90's, and she donated some of Lou's > papers and a tape of him speaking at the 16th Indiana State > Convention in April, 1968. > > Some of the correspondence concerned a shameful > incident where the committee of a Delaware State > Convention (I think) wanted to deny a black > speaker .... And this was the late '60's. Louis > cited the 3rd Tradition -- the letters flew > back-and-forth, with the result that Louis did > end up speaking--but he was VERY hurt. > > I passed these papers and tape on to the then Eastern PA Archivist, > but don't know where they are now. > > Cindy Miller > Philadelphia, PA > > - - - - > > On Jun 15, 2009, at 4:36 PM, J. Lobdell wrote: > > > > Lou R., African-American, was elected Delegate > > from Eastern PA to the General Service Conference > > before 1970. His widow, Mary, may still be > > alive (she was a frequent and always welcomed > > Al-Anon speaker). The Archivist for Area 59 AA > > (Eastern Pennsylvania) might have information > > on Lou. > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5790. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Early AA meeting formats From: Jim Brock . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/20/2009 2:14:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I recently heard a talk recorded at Cannes, France, Primary Purpose Group (June 2003?) where an intro that was described as the 'original' AA preamble was read. "We are gathered here because we are faced with the fact that we are powerless over alcohol. and unable to do anything about it without the help of a power greater than ourselves." I will transcribe it. Jim B. California Central Coast From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of victoria callaway Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2009 8:14 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Early AA meeting formats At our BB study tonite I was asked if I knew anything about early AA meeting formats and could I find out any info about them. Anyone have any info on this? thanks God bless vicki [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5791. . . . . . . . . . . . "People places things" From: Jon Markle . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/21/2009 9:45:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Where does the concept of powerlessness over "people, places and things" come from? Hugs for the trudge. Jon (Raleigh) 9/9/82 "The violets in the mountains have broken the rocks." (Tennessee Williams) "Hope is the feeling we have that the feeling we have is not permanent." (M.McLaughlin) "You know, I occasionally watch those preachers on the Christian TV stations. I always think to myself: How can I believe your theology when I can't believe your hair?" (Patricia Clarkson) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5792. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Early AA meeting formats From: rick tompkins . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/21/2009 9:49:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Over time I've read and heard that AA's earliest meeting formats varied greatly but the intros, preambles, and readings were much shorter. Before the Big Book, a prayer was usually spoken by one of the group's members and then it went straight into discussion. After the Big Book was in use in Chicago, the prayer format was replaced by a short, silent Quiet Time---kinda simplified matters, didn't it? I've found a compelling early 1940s "preamble" from the Peoria, Illinois group that mixed the BB Preface and bits of links to God in it. It was an entire page long Typed single-spaced) and took over five minutes to read out loud. I wonder just how many 'preambles' were used around AA groups before the 1947 AA Grapevine's suggested text (also derived from the Preface). Probably dozens of them that were a kind of welcoming talk, with a few reported here at our egroup (Texas' comes to mind). Many groups read (and still read) from the first two pages of Chapter Three's "More About Alcoholism" and it's been previously reported here at AAhistorylovers that early California groups began the practice of reading the Steps through '.if He were sought' from "How It Works" ---the same as today. The "AA Thought For the Day" from the 24 Hours book stayed in use since it was distributed nationally (late 1950s prevalence) and is still in use here in Illinois at many meetings. AAWS' "Daily Reflections" may have replaced the 24 Hrs. readings in different parts of the country but it's unpredictable around here today for either. Did the General Service Conference approve the development of a second "Daily Reflections" this year? That reading will eventually be added to the pre-discussion mix. I heard a longtimer, who attended meetings in the New York area in the mid-1940s, share that the closed discussions were a kind of "check-in" reporting time with members sharing on any particular issues of their day (or their week). It was a kind of random sharing and there was always encouragement from all for both the sober AAs and the newcomers when relating to recovery. Members stuck to sharing experience and stayed away from blatant advice. Fortunately this still happens today at meetings I participate in, even when a meeting is topic-driven, speaker-led, or open to random sharing. And blessed we are as a Fellowship! No one ever seems to be a loss for words to add to any meeting's discussion, right? Also, the Lord's Prayer closed the earliest meetings around the U.S.---I see and appreciate this as a 'best practice' that continues today. Amusingly, and in my own sobriety, I've heard it said that "you're never late to an AA meeting unless you miss the Lord's Prayer." Rick, Illinois From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jim Brock Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2009 1:15 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Early AA meeting formats I recently heard a talk recorded at Cannes, France, Primary Purpose Group (June 2003?) where an intro that was described as the 'original' AA preamble was read. "We are gathered here because we are faced with the fact that we are powerless over alcohol. and unable to do anything about it without the help of a power greater than ourselves." I will transcribe it. Jim B. California Central Coast From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of victoria callaway Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2009 8:14 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Early AA meeting formats At our BB study tonite I was asked if I knew anything about early AA meeting formats and could I find out any info about them. Anyone have any info on this? thanks God bless vicki [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5793. . . . . . . . . . . . Big Book writing time line From: lambchopp@gmail.com> . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/22/2009 8:03:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I am a member of the primary Purpose group in Lake Villa IL. We would like to know if Bill Wilson wrote "Bills Story" after the first draft of the book or before? Gratefully, Bill L Antioch, IL IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5794. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Early AA meeting formats From: Mike Barns . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/22/2009 9:37:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This sounds like the so-called "Texas Preamble" which opens: Alcoholics Anonymous is a fellowship of men and women who share their experience, strength and hope with each other that they may solve their common problem and help others to recover from alcoholism. We are gathered here because we are faced with the fact that we are powerless over alcohol, and are unable to do anything about it without the help of a Power greater than ourselves. We feel each person's religious convictions, if any, are his own affair, and the simple purpose of the program of AA is to show what may be done to enlist the aid of a Power greater than ourselves, regardless of what our individual conception of that Power may be. Mike Barns On Jun 22, 2009, at Jun 22, 2009 8:18 AM, AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com wrote: > "We are gathered here because we are faced with the fact that we are > powerless over alcohol. and unable to do anything about it without > the help > of a power greater than ourselves." > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5795. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "People places things" From: johnlawlee@yahoo.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/22/2009 10:20:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The cliche "people, places and things" comes from the Basic Text of Narcotics Anonymous, specifically page 15 of the Sixth Edition. It's not found in the AA literature, and it is contradictory to the AA message. The NA Basic Text converts the three pertinent ideas of the BIg Book to "three disturbing realizations." The third "disturbing realization" is , "we can no longer blame people, places and things for our addiction." The treatment industry has gotten ahold of the NA language and converted it to a claim that "we are [supposedly] powerless over people, places and things" or even worse, that "we should avoid people, places and things." The "people places things" cliche is absent from the basic literature of AA; more importantly, the cliche is contradictory to the AA message. Page 102 of the Big Book assures us, "...any scheme...which proposes to shield the sick man from temptation is doomed...he usually winds up with a bigger explosion..." The Big Book also indicates that we don't stay powerless over people. Page 132 of the AA basic text promises, "We have recovered, and been given the power to help others." Nothing in the basic literature of AA says we're powerless. The FIrst Step doesn't say we're powerless. It's in the past tense, The FIrst Step says that we WERE powerless, that we USED TO BE powerless [before taking all 12 Steps]. The Big Book further indicates that we don't stay powerless over people. Page 132 of the Big Book promises, "we have recovered and been the power to help others." To claim that "we stay powerless" , or that "we'll always be powerless" is the exact opposite of the AA message. love+service John Lee Pittsburgh--- On Sun, 6/21/09, Jon Markle wrote: From: Jon Markle Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] "People places things" To: "AAHistoryLovers" Date: Sunday, June 21, 2009, 9:45 PM Where does the concept of powerlessness over "people, places and things" come from? Hugs for the trudge. Jon (Raleigh) 9/9/82 "The violets in the mountains have broken the rocks." (Tennessee Williams) "Hope is the feeling we have that the feeling we have is not permanent." (M.McLaughlin) "You know, I occasionally watch those preachers on the Christian TV stations. I always think to myself: How can I believe your theology when I can't believe your hair?" (Patricia Clarkson) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5796. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Big Book writing time line From: barefootbill@optonline.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/22/2009 2:08:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The first two chapters written for the Big Book were "There Is A Solution" (originally chapter 1) & "Bill's Story" (originally chapter 2). These were the only two chapters we had in the beginning & were the two chapters shown to Harpers Publishing before AA chose to publish the book themselves. These two chapters were probably written in late May or early June of 1938 & the rest of the BB chapters probably started being written in September 1938. Just Love, Barefoot Bill (from NJ) & Bill S. (from CT) ----- Original Message ----- From: lambchopp@gmail.com Date: Monday, June 22, 2009 1:19 pm Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Big Book writing time line To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > I am a member of the primary Purpose group in Lake Villa IL. We > would like to know if Bill Wilson wrote "Bills Story" after the > first draft of the book or before? > > Gratefully, Bill L > Antioch, IL > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5797. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "People places things" From: James Flynn . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/22/2009 2:29:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The phrase can be found in the Al-Anon literature specifically the ODATT Daily Meditation Book. It does not come from the much maligned treatment industry! Sincerely, Jim F. --- On Mon, 6/22/09, johnlawlee@yahoo.com wrote: From: johnlawlee@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] "People places things" To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, June 22, 2009, 7:20 AM The cliche "people, places and things" comes from the Basic Text of Narcotics Anonymous, specifically page 15 of the Sixth Edition. It's not found in the AA literature, and it is contradictory to the AA message. The NA Basic Text converts the three pertinent ideas of the BIg Book to "three disturbing realizations. " The third "disturbing realization" is , "we can no longer blame people, places and things for our addiction." The treatment industry has gotten ahold of the NA language and converted it to a claim that "we are [supposedly] powerless over people, places and things" or even worse, that "we should avoid people, places and things." The "people places things" cliche is absent from the basic literature of AA; more importantly, the cliche is contradictory to the AA message. Page 102 of the Big Book assures us, "...any scheme...which proposes to shield the sick man from temptation is doomed...he usually winds up with a bigger explosion... " The Big Book also indicates that we don't stay powerless over people. Page 132 of the AA basic text promises, "We have recovered, and been given the power to help others." Nothing in the basic literature of AA says we're powerless. The FIrst Step doesn't say we're powerless. It's in the past tense, The FIrst Step says that we WERE powerless, that we USED TO BE powerless [before taking all 12 Steps]. The Big Book further indicates that we don't stay powerless over people. Page 132 of the Big Book promises, "we have recovered and been the power to help others." To claim that "we stay powerless" , or that "we'll always be powerless" is the exact opposite of the AA message. love+service John Lee Pittsburgh-- - On Sun, 6/21/09, Jon Markle wrote: From: Jon Markle Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] "People places things" To: "AAHistoryLovers" Date: Sunday, June 21, 2009, 9:45 PM Where does the concept of powerlessness over "people, places and things" come from? Hugs for the trudge. Jon (Raleigh) 9/9/82 "The violets in the mountains have broken the rocks." (Tennessee Williams) "Hope is the feeling we have that the feeling we have is not permanent." (M.McLaughlin) "You know, I occasionally watch those preachers on the Christian TV stations. I always think to myself: How can I believe your theology when I can't believe your hair?" (Patricia Clarkson) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5798. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "People places things" From: James Flynn . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/22/2009 3:20:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The notion that we are "powerless over people places and things" comes directly from Al-Anon and has nothing to do with avoiding anything. It is all about acceptance of other people's, things or situations as autonomous. A similiar concept promoted by Al-Anon is known as "the three C's." That is I didn't cause it, I can't control it and I can't cure it. It is the conclusion that one reaches when one aknowledges their limitations and finally understands that certain things have to be left in God's hands. You could say it is the realization that I am not God and that pretending otherwise is just inviting another lesson in futility. Basically it's about letting GO and letting God, rather than playing God. Jim F. --- On Mon, 6/22/09, johnlawlee@yahoo.com wrote: From: johnlawlee@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] "People places things" To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, June 22, 2009, 7:20 AM The cliche "people, places and things" comes from the Basic Text of Narcotics Anonymous, specifically page 15 of the Sixth Edition. It's not found in the AA literature, and it is contradictory to the AA message. The NA Basic Text converts the three pertinent ideas of the BIg Book to "three disturbing realizations. " The third "disturbing realization" is , "we can no longer blame people, places and things for our addiction." The treatment industry has gotten ahold of the NA language and converted it to a claim that "we are [supposedly] powerless over people, places and things" or even worse, that "we should avoid people, places and things." The "people places things" cliche is absent from the basic literature of AA; more importantly, the cliche is contradictory to the AA message. Page 102 of the Big Book assures us, "...any scheme...which proposes to shield the sick man from temptation is doomed...he usually winds up with a bigger explosion... " The Big Book also indicates that we don't stay powerless over people. Page 132 of the AA basic text promises, "We have recovered, and been given the power to help others." Nothing in the basic literature of AA says we're powerless. The FIrst Step doesn't say we're powerless. It's in the past tense, The FIrst Step says that we WERE powerless, that we USED TO BE powerless [before taking all 12 Steps]. The Big Book further indicates that we don't stay powerless over people. Page 132 of the Big Book promises, "we have recovered and been the power to help others." To claim that "we stay powerless" , or that "we'll always be powerless" is the exact opposite of the AA message. love+service John Lee Pittsburgh-- - On Sun, 6/21/09, Jon Markle wrote: From: Jon Markle Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] "People places things" To: "AAHistoryLovers" Date: Sunday, June 21, 2009, 9:45 PM Where does the concept of powerlessness over "people, places and things" come from? Hugs for the trudge. Jon (Raleigh) 9/9/82 "The violets in the mountains have broken the rocks." (Tennessee Williams) "Hope is the feeling we have that the feeling we have is not permanent." (M.McLaughlin) "You know, I occasionally watch those preachers on the Christian TV stations. I always think to myself: How can I believe your theology when I can't believe your hair?" (Patricia Clarkson) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5799. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "People places things" From: Sally Brown . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/22/2009 3:08:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Has anyone checked the Al-Anon archives? Al-Anon is where I first heard "can't control people, places, and things" over 30 years ago, and where it's common in this area. I was somewhat surprised in fairly recent years to hear it suddenly being used in our local AA meetings. I just figured it was borrowed from Al-Anon. A fairly cursory look through Al-Anon's Big Book, How Al-Anon Works, and their meditation book, One Day At a Time, however, was not definitive. Maybe someone on AAHistoryLovers is knowledgeable about our sister organization's archives. Rev Sally Brown coauthor with David R Brown: Board Certified Clinical Chaplain A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann United Church of Christ The First Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous 1470 Sand Hill Rd, 309 www.sallyanddavidbrown.com Palo Alto, CA 94304 Phone/Fax: 650 325 5258 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5800. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: History of sponsorship From: allan_gengler . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/22/2009 3:45:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Even though SPONSORSHIP is not mentioned in the book Alcoholics Anonymous (The Big Book) I would suggest that sponsorship was the rule, from the beginning, and not something added later. Bill called Ebby his sponsor until death, even though Ebby slipped a few times. But the chain of sponsorship starts with Rowland Hazard, who sponsored Shep Cornell and Cebra Graves, who sponsored Ebby, who sponsored Bill, who sponsored Bob who, together, sponsored Bill D., etc. In "Dr. Bob and the Good Old Timers," it's clear that NO ONE just sauntered in off the streets and decided to join AA. Instead they were sponsored into the group FROM a hospital and wouldn't even attend a meeting unless they went through Dr. Bob's Upper Room treatment where they "made a surrender," often a key element missing from modern AA. Also in that book it's described how the group got together and pooled their money to bus a guy in who "supposedly" was the first to get sober on JUST THE BOOK. When the bus arrived and a man, matching his description, didn't get off the bus, the group asked the bus driver. They were told of a guy under the seat drunk on his but. The group of sober drunks, of course, helped the drunk off and began to sponsor him. I always thought that was interesting and have often wondered if it was truly possible to get sober ON THE BOOK ALONE. Even if you did, you would need to take the advice in A Vision For You and seek out drunks to form a fellowship, thus becoming a sponsor. I think the real question is when did sponsorship become optional and how sober drunks stopped seeking to sponsor and waited for someone to ask them. Or even the notion of being told "you must get a sponsor," when did that start. Luckily and man decided to be my sponsor so I never got to make that misguided decision in the beginning. --Al --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Charlie C wrote: > > I have been revisiting the "Little Red Book," a title discussed here at times, and was struck by the way it recommends doing one's 5th Step with a non-AA, e.g. a clergyman, doctor... In discussing the 8th Step, it mentions that one may want to refer to "older members" when unsure of how to proceed with amends. In neither place is a sponsor mentioned. > > My understanding is that the Little Red Book represents AA practice of the 1940s, in particular that developed by Dr. Bob. Is this correct? > > Most of all though, I am curious: when did sponsorship as we know it today become the norm? When did the tradition, suggested in the Big Book, of discussing one's 5th Step with an outsider become the exception, and using one's sponsor the rule? Are there any interviews with old timers or other records documenting this shift? Thanks, I learn so much from this group! > > Charlie C. > IM = route20guy > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5801. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: "People places things" From: Carole Seddon . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/22/2009 5:36:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII It is part of Al Anon for their first step, I believe. Carole S From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of johnlawlee@yahoo.com Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 10:20 AM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] "People places things" The cliche "people, places and things" comes from the Basic Text of Narcotics Anonymous, specifically page 15 of the Sixth Edition. It's not found in the AA literature, and it is contradictory to the AA message. The NA Basic Text converts the three pertinent ideas of the BIg Book to "three disturbing realizations." The third "disturbing realization" is , "we can no longer blame people, places and things for our addiction." The treatment industry has gotten ahold of the NA language and converted it to a claim that "we are [supposedly] powerless over people, places and things" or even worse, that "we should avoid people, places and things." The "people places things" cliche is absent from the basic literature of AA; more importantly, the cliche is contradictory to the AA message. Page 102 of the Big Book assures us, "...any scheme...which proposes to shield the sick man from temptation is doomed...he usually winds up with a bigger explosion..." The Big Book also indicates that we don't stay powerless over people. Page 132 of the AA basic text promises, "We have recovered, and been given the power to help others." Nothing in the basic literature of AA says we're powerless. The FIrst Step doesn't say we're powerless. It's in the past tense, The FIrst Step says that we WERE powerless, that we USED TO BE powerless [before taking all 12 Steps]. The Big Book further indicates that we don't stay powerless over people. Page 132 of the Big Book promises, "we have recovered and been the power to help others." To claim that "we stay powerless" , or that "we'll always be powerless" is the exact opposite of the AA message. love+service John Lee Pittsburgh--- On Sun, 6/21/09, Jon Markle > wrote: From: Jon Markle > Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] "People places things" To: "AAHistoryLovers" > Date: Sunday, June 21, 2009, 9:45 PM Where does the concept of powerlessness over "people, places and things" come from? Hugs for the trudge. Jon (Raleigh) 9/9/82 "The violets in the mountains have broken the rocks." (Tennessee Williams) "Hope is the feeling we have that the feeling we have is not permanent." (M.McLaughlin) "You know, I occasionally watch those preachers on the Christian TV stations. I always think to myself: How can I believe your theology when I can't believe your hair?" (Patricia Clarkson) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5802. . . . . . . . . . . . Wino Joe? From: doci333 . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/22/2009 6:21:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi All, I heard from the Joe and Charlie Tapes, mention "Wino Joe's" list of being an alcoholic. Joe mentioned only 2 or three from this humorous list. Anyone have the list. AA Love and Hugs, Dave G. Illinois IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5803. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Early AA meeting formats From: tomper87 . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/22/2009 6:46:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The committee considered the request to develop a second volume of Daily Reflections and took no action. "Did the General Service Conference approve the development of a second "Daily Reflections" this year? That reading will eventually be added to the pre-discussion mix." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5804. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Big Book writing time line From: John Barton . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/22/2009 10:34:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Bill wrote two chapters of the book to "shop around" and see if there would be interest among publishers. They were Chapter 1 "There is a Solution: and Chapter 2 "Bill's Story" There were two versions of Bill's Story prior to the version that went into the original manuscript. The second version which is quite similar to the final version can be found on the web pages of Area 44 archives. This is a pictorial version that was produced by the Big Book Study Group of South Orange, New Jersey. Enjoy! http://www.nnjaa.org/area44/pdf/archives_bills_story.pdf --- On Mon, 6/22/09, wrote: From: Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Big Book writing time line To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, June 22, 2009, 12:03 PM I am a member of the primary Purpose group in Lake Villa IL. We would like to know if Bill Wilson wrote "Bills Story" after the first draft of the book or before? Gratefully, Bill L Antioch, IL [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5805. . . . . . . . . . . . AA ''not in breach of law'' on minors From: Fiona Dodd . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/23/2009 1:17:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII AA 'not in breach of law' on minors CARL O'BRIEN Social Affairs Correspondent Tue, Jun 23, 2009 GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS have moved to ease fears that the Alcoholics Anonymous organisation is in breach of child protection law by allowing under-18s to attend its meetings. The AA says it received legal advice recently which concluded that its meetings were not suitable locations for teenagers on foot of child protection legislation and the Children First guidelines. The organisation, which has 13,000 members across the State, says minors as young as 14 and 15 regularly turn up at meetings. In correspondence with the Department of Health, officials from AA appealed for laws or guidelines to be relaxed to allow minors to be admitted. "Alcoholics Anonymous groups throughout Ireland do not wish to turn these minors away. Surely some exception could be made for an organisation such as the AA," it said. "Maybe there is a need to amend legislation, or for a special order to allow minors to attend meetings to be granted." Following a parliamentary question by Ennis-based Fine Gael TD Joe Carey, officials from the Department of Health met with the AA to discuss the issue and concluded they were not operating in breach of any law in this area. The precise detail of the advice given by the department was not available yesterday, while the AA typically avoids commenting on issues in the public domain. Much of the concern raised by those in AA centred on whether Garda vetting or training of staff was mandatory, according to informed sources. However, the Children First guidelines on child protection are not on a statutory footing, while much Garda vetting outside of the formal childcare area takes place on a voluntary basis. The AA's concern over how best to accommodate young people comes at a time of rising concern over alcohol abuse by teenagers. Recent research found that Irish teenagers aged 15 to 17 are the fifth highest drinkers out of 35 countries surveyed in Europe. A report by the HSE last year found that chronic alcohol conditions had increased among young adults. The Alcohol-Related Harm in Ireland report by Dr Ann Hope for the HSE's alcohol implementation group, also pointed out that treatment centres were recording many new cases, particularly of younger people who were being treated for problem alcohol use for the first time. Heavy use of alcohol during teenage years can impair brain development and cause memory loss, according to health experts, while hospital consultants say they are seeing a dramatic increase in the number of liver damage cases among young people. There are also significant risks for those who start drinking before age 15. They are four times more likely to develop alcohol dependency than those who wait until 21, seven times more likely to be in a car crash and 11 times more likely to suffer injuries. C 2009 The Irish Times [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5806. . . . . . . . . . . . Big Book Page 100 to do with sponsorship From: John R Reid . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/23/2009 3:19:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Please refer to page 100 of the Big Book in regards to working with the new person ----- Original Message ----- From: allan_gengler To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 5:45 AM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: History of sponsorship Even though SPONSORSHIP is not mentioned in the book Alcoholics Anonymous (The Big Book) I would suggest that sponsorship was the rule, from the beginning, and not something added later. Bill called Ebby his sponsor until death, even though Ebby slipped a few times. But the chain of sponsorship starts with Rowland Hazard, who sponsored Shep Cornell and Cebra Graves, who sponsored Ebby, who sponsored Bill, who sponsored Bob who, together, sponsored Bill D., etc. In "Dr. Bob and the Good Old Timers," it's clear that NO ONE just sauntered in off the streets and decided to join AA. Instead they were sponsored into the group FROM a hospital and wouldn't even attend a meeting unless they went through Dr. Bob's Upper Room treatment where they "made a surrender," often a key element missing from modern AA. Also in that book it's described how the group got together and pooled their money to bus a guy in who "supposedly" was the first to get sober on JUST THE BOOK. When the bus arrived and a man, matching his description, didn't get off the bus, the group asked the bus driver. They were told of a guy under the seat drunk on his but. The group of sober drunks, of course, helped the drunk off and began to sponsor him. I always thought that was interesting and have often wondered if it was truly possible to get sober ON THE BOOK ALONE. Even if you did, you would need to take the advice in A Vision For You and seek out drunks to form a fellowship, thus becoming a sponsor. I think the real question is when did sponsorship become optional and how sober drunks stopped seeking to sponsor and waited for someone to ask them. Or even the notion of being told "you must get a sponsor," when did that start. Luckily and man decided to be my sponsor so I never got to make that misguided decision in the beginning. --Al --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Charlie C wrote: > > I have been revisiting the "Little Red Book," a title discussed here at times, and was struck by the way it recommends doing one's 5th Step with a non-AA, e.g. a clergyman, doctor... In discussing the 8th Step, it mentions that one may want to refer to "older members" when unsure of how to proceed with amends. In neither place is a sponsor mentioned. > > My understanding is that the Little Red Book represents AA practice of the 1940s, in particular that developed by Dr. Bob. Is this correct? > > Most of all though, I am curious: when did sponsorship as we know it today become the norm? When did the tradition, suggested in the Big Book, of discussing one's 5th Step with an outsider become the exception, and using one's sponsor the rule? Are there any interviews with old timers or other records documenting this shift? Thanks, I learn so much from this group! > > Charlie C. > IM = route20guy > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5807. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: History of sponsorship From: John R Reid . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/23/2009 3:17:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Please refer to 100 ----- Original Message ----- From: allan_gengler To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 5:45 AM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: History of sponsorship Even though SPONSORSHIP is not mentioned in the book Alcoholics Anonymous (The Big Book) I would suggest that sponsorship was the rule, from the beginning, and not something added later. Bill called Ebby his sponsor until death, even though Ebby slipped a few times. But the chain of sponsorship starts with Rowland Hazard, who sponsored Shep Cornell and Cebra Graves, who sponsored Ebby, who sponsored Bill, who sponsored Bob who, together, sponsored Bill D., etc. In "Dr. Bob and the Good Old Timers," it's clear that NO ONE just sauntered in off the streets and decided to join AA. Instead they were sponsored into the group FROM a hospital and wouldn't even attend a meeting unless they went through Dr. Bob's Upper Room treatment where they "made a surrender," often a key element missing from modern AA. Also in that book it's described how the group got together and pooled their money to bus a guy in who "supposedly" was the first to get sober on JUST THE BOOK. When the bus arrived and a man, matching his description, didn't get off the bus, the group asked the bus driver. They were told of a guy under the seat drunk on his but. The group of sober drunks, of course, helped the drunk off and began to sponsor him. I always thought that was interesting and have often wondered if it was truly possible to get sober ON THE BOOK ALONE. Even if you did, you would need to take the advice in A Vision For You and seek out drunks to form a fellowship, thus becoming a sponsor. I think the real question is when did sponsorship become optional and how sober drunks stopped seeking to sponsor and waited for someone to ask them. Or even the notion of being told "you must get a sponsor," when did that start. Luckily and man decided to be my sponsor so I never got to make that misguided decision in the beginning. --Al --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Charlie C wrote: > > I have been revisiting the "Little Red Book," a title discussed here at times, and was struck by the way it recommends doing one's 5th Step with a non-AA, e.g. a clergyman, doctor... In discussing the 8th Step, it mentions that one may want to refer to "older members" when unsure of how to proceed with amends. In neither place is a sponsor mentioned. > > My understanding is that the Little Red Book represents AA practice of the 1940s, in particular that developed by Dr. Bob. Is this correct? > > Most of all though, I am curious: when did sponsorship as we know it today become the norm? When did the tradition, suggested in the Big Book, of discussing one's 5th Step with an outsider become the exception, and using one's sponsor the rule? Are there any interviews with old timers or other records documenting this shift? Thanks, I learn so much from this group! > > Charlie C. > IM = route20guy > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5808. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "People places things" From: Jon Markle . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/23/2009 2:11:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I don't want to debate this here. (I have, obiously a different experience ). I just want to find out where or how it got into the rooms of AA. It's not in the Big Book. I don't think it's in any of AA's other literature or textbooks, either, but I can't say that with complete authority -- yet. Thanks. Hugs for the trudge Jon (Raleigh) 9/9/82 If it appears I was all thumbs when I wrote this, I was! Sent from my iPhone. On Jun 22, 2009, at 3:20 PM, James Flynn wrote: > The notion that we are "powerless over people places and things" > comes directly from Al-Anon and has nothing to do with avoiding > anything. It is all about acceptance of other people's, things or > situations as autonomous. A similiar concept promoted by Al-Anon is > known as "the three C's." That is I didn't cause it, I can't > control it and I can't cure it. It is the conclusion that one > reaches when one aknowledges their limitations and finally > understands that certain things have to be left in God's hands. You > could say it is the realization that I am not God and that > pretending otherwise is just inviting another lesson in futility. > Basically it's about letting GO and letting God, rather than playing > God. > > Jim F. > > --- On Mon, 6/22/09, johnlawlee@yahoo.com > wrote: > > > From: johnlawlee@yahoo.com > Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] "People places things" > To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > Date: Monday, June 22, 2009, 7:20 AM > > > > > > > > > > The cliche "people, places and things" comes from the Basic Text > of Narcotics Anonymous, specifically page 15 of the Sixth Edition. > It's not found in the AA literature, and it is contradictory to the > AA message. The NA Basic Text converts the > three pertinent ideas of the BIg Book to "three disturbing > realizations. " The third "disturbing realization" is , "we can no > longer blame people, places and things for our addiction." > The treatment industry has gotten ahold of the NA language and > converted it to a claim that "we are [supposedly] powerless over > people, places and things" or even worse, that "we should avoid > people, places and things." > The "people places things" cliche is absent from the basic > literature of AA; more importantly, the cliche is contradictory to > the AA message. Page 102 of the Big Book assures us, "...any > scheme...which proposes to shield the sick man from temptation is > doomed...he usually winds up with a bigger explosion... " The Big > Book also indicates that we don't stay powerless over people. Page > 132 of the AA basic text promises, "We have recovered, and been > given the power to help others." > Nothing in the basic literature of AA says we're powerless. > The FIrst Step doesn't say we're powerless. It's in the past tense, > The FIrst Step says that we WERE powerless, that we USED TO BE > powerless [before taking all 12 Steps]. The Big Book further > indicates that we don't stay powerless over people. Page 132 of the > Big Book promises, "we have recovered and been the power to help > others." To claim that "we stay powerless" , or that "we'll always > be powerless" is the exact opposite of the AA message. > love+service > John Lee > Pittsburgh-- - On Sun, 6/21/09, Jon Markle > wrote: > > From: Jon Markle > Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] "People places things" > To: "AAHistoryLovers" > Date: Sunday, June 21, 2009, 9:45 PM > > Where does the concept of powerlessness over "people, places and > things" come from? > > Hugs for the trudge. > > Jon (Raleigh) > 9/9/82 > > "The violets in the mountains have broken the rocks." (Tennessee > Williams) > > "Hope is the feeling we have that the feeling we have is not > permanent." (M.McLaughlin) > > "You know, I occasionally watch those preachers on the Christian TV > stations. I always think to myself: How can I believe your theology > when I can't believe your hair?" (Patricia Clarkson) > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5809. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: "People places things" From: James Flynn . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/23/2009 6:36:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Daily Relections January 3rd, page 11 "Iv'e learned that I do not have the power and control I once thought I had. I am powerless over what people think about me. I am powerless over having just missed the bus. I am powerless over how other people work (or don't work) the Steps. But I've also learned I am not powerless over some things. I am not powerless over my attitudes. I am not powerless over negativity. I am not powerless over assuming responsibility for my own recovery." --- On Mon, 6/22/09, Carole Seddon wrote: From: Carole Seddon Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] "People places things" To: "'AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com'" Date: Monday, June 22, 2009, 2:36 PM It is part of Al Anon for their first step, I believe. Carole S From: AAHistoryLovers@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of johnlawlee@yahoo. com Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 10:20 AM To: AAHistoryLovers@ yahoogroups. com Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] "People places things" The cliche "people, places and things" comes from the Basic Text of Narcotics Anonymous, specifically page 15 of the Sixth Edition. It's not found in the AA literature, and it is contradictory to the AA message. The NA Basic Text converts the three pertinent ideas of the BIg Book to "three disturbing realizations. " The third "disturbing realization" is , "we can no longer blame people, places and things for our addiction." The treatment industry has gotten ahold of the NA language and converted it to a claim that "we are [supposedly] powerless over people, places and things" or even worse, that "we should avoid people, places and things." The "people places things" cliche is absent from the basic literature of AA; more importantly, the cliche is contradictory to the AA message. Page 102 of the Big Book assures us, "...any scheme...which proposes to shield the sick man from temptation is doomed...he usually winds up with a bigger explosion... " The Big Book also indicates that we don't stay powerless over people. Page 132 of the AA basic text promises, "We have recovered, and been given the power to help others." Nothing in the basic literature of AA says we're powerless. The FIrst Step doesn't say we're powerless. It's in the past tense, The FIrst Step says that we WERE powerless, that we USED TO BE powerless [before taking all 12 Steps]. The Big Book further indicates that we don't stay powerless over people. Page 132 of the Big Book promises, "we have recovered and been the power to help others." To claim that "we stay powerless" , or that "we'll always be powerless" is the exact opposite of the AA message. love+service John Lee Pittsburgh-- - On Sun, 6/21/09, Jon Markle > wrote: From: Jon Markle > Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] "People places things" To: "AAHistoryLovers" > Date: Sunday, June 21, 2009, 9:45 PM Where does the concept of powerlessness over "people, places and things" come from? Hugs for the trudge. Jon (Raleigh) 9/9/82 "The violets in the mountains have broken the rocks." (Tennessee Williams) "Hope is the feeling we have that the feeling we have is not permanent." (M.McLaughlin) "You know, I occasionally watch those preachers on the Christian TV stations. I always think to myself: How can I believe your theology when I can't believe your hair?" (Patricia Clarkson) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5810. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: History of sponsorship From: James Flynn . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/23/2009 6:49:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The impression that sponsorship is optional might come from the fact that the AA literature (especially the the 12 Steps and and 12 Traditions chapters on steps 4 & 5) make it clear that one does not necessarily have to take the fifth step with a sponsor but may elect to choose, a close mouthed friend, a spiritual adviser, a psychologist or ever a total stranger. Also in the book Living Sober (in the section that answers questions on sponsorship) it states that not everyone in AA has had a sponsor. Therefore some might conclude that since a sponsor is not absolutely required to work the steps and since not everyone in AA has had a sponsor that sponsorship must be optional. (Though not highly recommended) Sincerely, Jim F. --- On Mon, 6/22/09, allan_gengler wrote: From: allan_gengler Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: History of sponsorship To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, June 22, 2009, 12:45 PM Even though SPONSORSHIP is not mentioned in the book Alcoholics Anonymous (The Big Book) I would suggest that sponsorship was the rule, from the beginning, and not something added later. Bill called Ebby his sponsor until death, even though Ebby slipped a few times. But the chain of sponsorship starts with Rowland Hazard, who sponsored Shep Cornell and Cebra Graves, who sponsored Ebby, who sponsored Bill, who sponsored Bob who, together, sponsored Bill D., etc. In "Dr. Bob and the Good Old Timers," it's clear that NO ONE just sauntered in off the streets and decided to join AA. Instead they were sponsored into the group FROM a hospital and wouldn't even attend a meeting unless they went through Dr. Bob's Upper Room treatment where they "made a surrender," often a key element missing from modern AA. Also in that book it's described how the group got together and pooled their money to bus a guy in who "supposedly" was the first to get sober on JUST THE BOOK. When the bus arrived and a man, matching his description, didn't get off the bus, the group asked the bus driver. They were told of a guy under the seat drunk on his but. The group of sober drunks, of course, helped the drunk off and began to sponsor him. I always thought that was interesting and have often wondered if it was truly possible to get sober ON THE BOOK ALONE. Even if you did, you would need to take the advice in A Vision For You and seek out drunks to form a fellowship, thus becoming a sponsor. I think the real question is when did sponsorship become optional and how sober drunks stopped seeking to sponsor and waited for someone to ask them. Or even the notion of being told "you must get a sponsor," when did that start. Luckily and man decided to be my sponsor so I never got to make that misguided decision in the beginning. --Al --- In AAHistoryLovers@ yahoogroups. com, Charlie C wrote: > > I have been revisiting the "Little Red Book," a title discussed here at times, and was struck by the way it recommends doing one's 5th Step with a non-AA, e.g. a clergyman, doctor... In discussing the 8th Step, it mentions that one may want to refer to "older members" when unsure of how to proceed with amends. In neither place is a sponsor mentioned. > > My understanding is that the Little Red Book represents AA practice of the 1940s, in particular that developed by Dr. Bob. Is this correct? > > Most of all though, I am curious: when did sponsorship as we know it today become the norm? When did the tradition, suggested in the Big Book, of discussing one's 5th Step with an outsider become the exception, and using one's sponsor the rule? Are there any interviews with old timers or other records documenting this shift? Thanks, I learn so much from this group! > > Charlie C. > IM = route20guy > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5811. . . . . . . . . . . . Mayflower Hotel to Sieberling Gatehouse.....transportation? From: Gregory Harris . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/23/2009 7:55:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello all There is some discussion in our local group...this is along the lines of trivia but some of us are curious....does anyone know HOW Bill got from the hotel to the Gatehouse (i.e. bus..cab..or what?) Thanks Greg H. in Illinois [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5812. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "People places things" From: Cindy Miller . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/23/2009 8:51:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From "Paths to Recovery-al-Anon's Steps, Traditions & Concepts" , p. 9 "As we look back on our lives, we are asked to acknowledge our powerlessness over alcohol, the alcoholic, and every person and event we sought to control by our own willpower.. By letting go of the illusion of control over other people, their actions and their addiction to alcohol, we find an enormous burden is lifted and we begin to discover the freedom and the power we do possess--the power to define and live our on lives." -cm `·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º> On Jun 22, 2009, at 5:36 PM, Carole Seddon wrote: > > > It is part of Al Anon for their first step, I believe. > > Carole S > > From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of > johnlawlee@yahoo.com > Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 10:20 AM > To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] "People places things" > > The cliche "people, places and things" comes from the Basic Text of > Narcotics Anonymous, specifically page 15 of the Sixth Edition. > It's not found in the AA literature, and it is contradictory to the > AA message. The NA Basic Text converts the > three pertinent ideas of the BIg Book to "three disturbing > realizations." The third "disturbing realization" is , "we can no > longer blame people, places and things for our addiction." > The treatment industry has gotten ahold of the NA language and > converted it to a claim that "we are [supposedly] powerless over > people, places and things" or even worse, that "we should avoid > people, places and things." > The "people places things" cliche is absent from the basic > literature of AA; more importantly, the cliche is contradictory to > the AA message. Page 102 of the Big Book assures us, "...any > scheme...which proposes to shield the sick man from temptation is > doomed...he usually winds up with a bigger explosion..." The Big > Book also indicates that we don't stay powerless over people. Page > 132 of the AA basic text promises, "We have recovered, and been > given the power to help others." > Nothing in the basic literature of AA says we're powerless. The > FIrst Step doesn't say we're powerless. It's in the past tense, The > FIrst Step says that we WERE powerless, that we USED TO BE > powerless [before taking all 12 Steps]. The Big Book further > indicates that we don't stay powerless over people. Page 132 of the > Big Book promises, "we have recovered and been the power to help > others." To claim that "we stay powerless" , or that "we'll always > be powerless" is the exact opposite of the AA message. > love+service > John Lee > Pittsburgh--- On Sun, 6/21/09, Jon Markle > > wrote: > > From: Jon Markle 40mac.com>> > Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] "People places things" > To: "AAHistoryLovers" > 40yahoogroups.com>> > Date: Sunday, June 21, 2009, 9:45 PM > > Where does the concept of powerlessness over "people, places and > things" come from? > > Hugs for the trudge. > > Jon (Raleigh) > 9/9/82 > > "The violets in the mountains have broken the rocks." (Tennessee > Williams) > > "Hope is the feeling we have that the feeling we have is not > permanent." (M.McLaughlin) > > "You know, I occasionally watch those preachers on the Christian TV > stations. I always think to myself: How can I believe your theology > when I can't believe your hair?" (Patricia Clarkson) > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5813. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Wino Joe? From: elg3_79 . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/23/2009 11:27:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A great recording of Joe can be found at www.xa-speakers.org -- I have the link as http://xa-speakers.org/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=290 or search "wino" and he'll pop up .. (My favorite of Joe's "questions" was "Have you ever had malfunction of the zipper?" .. Then after the laughter subsides, he says wistfully "They used to call me 'Rusty' ..") Y'all's in service Ted G. --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "doci333" wrote: > > Hi All, > > I heard from the Joe and Charlie Tapes, mention "Wino Joe's" list of being an alcoholic. Joe mentioned only 2 or three from this humorous list. > > Anyone have the list. > > AA Love and Hugs, > Dave G. > Illinois > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5814. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "People places things" From: bridgetsbuddy . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/23/2009 9:39:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII What about this one? "When I am disturbed, it is because I find some person, place, thing, or situation -- some fact of my life -- unacceptable to me, and I can find no serenity until I accept that person, place, thing, or situation as being exactly the way it is supposed to be at this moment." ("Acceptance was the Answer," BB, 4th Ed., p.417) No? --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Jon Markle wrote: > > Where does the concept of powerlessness over "people, places and > things" come from? > > Hugs for the trudge. > > Jon (Raleigh) > 9/9/82 > > "The violets in the mountains have broken the rocks." (Tennessee > Williams) > > "Hope is the feeling we have that the feeling we have is not > permanent." (M.McLaughlin) > > "You know, I occasionally watch those preachers on the Christian TV > stations. I always think to myself: How can I believe your theology > when I can't believe your hair?" (Patricia Clarkson) > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5815. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: History of sponsorship From: James Flynn . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/23/2009 9:39:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Sponsorship like everything else in the AA program is optional (including misery). Also not everyone believes that the sponsor/sponsee relationship should gone on indefinately or that an AA member should be permitted to become overly dependant on their sponsor. Below are a couple of interesting passages taken from AAWS's Questions and Answers on Sponsorship Pamphlet.  âTo join some organizations, you must have a sponsor - a person who vouches for you, presents you as being suitable for membership. This is definitely not the case with A.A. Anyone who has a desire to stop drinking is welcome to join us!â  How can a sponsor handle an overdependent newcomer? In the first days of sobriety, a newcomer is sometimes so bewildered and frightened - or so mentally fuzzy and physically weak - that he or she needs to be taken to each meeting and perhaps helped in making personal decisions. But such utter dependence on the sponsor, when carried past the earliest stages of recovery, often becomes damaging to both parties. It has already been pointed out that we stay sober through reliance on the A.A. program, not on any one member, so the newcomerâs chances in this situation may not be very good. And the sponsor may either feel harried by constant, unreasonable demands, or feel flattered and let the ego build up dangerously. How can this dilemma be solved without leaving the newcomer disheartened? Supposedly, the sponsor has been seeing that the newcomer meets many other A.A.s; maybe now is the time to redouble the effort, seeking out those likely to be extra congenial. If this tactful gambit fails, some sponsors have tried a direct approach, talking over the problem frankly with the newcomer. And if even this has no effect, the sponsor's best solution may be to say, firmly and kindly, that he or she will no longer be available any time the newcomer wishes - but will keep in touch, with an occasional friendly call. Now it is up to the newcomer. One course is to find another sponsor. Or the newcomer may have achieved enough inner strength without realizing it, and can now go on to the next stage, substitute other kinds of A.A. friendship for sponsorship, start working the program in his or her own way, and take on personal responsibility in everyday life.  When and how does the sponsor let the newcomer go? Usually the relationship does not really end at any definite point. Without any discussion, it just changes gradually as the newcomer grows in A.A. A wise sponsor is delighted when the new member begins to take initiative in making a widening circle of friends, becomes active in the group, and extends the hand of welcome to the latest newcomers. A successful sponsor-newcomer partnership is a special sort of bond, remembered gratefully on each side, even if the two no longer are close. But it may also develop into a lasting friendship, and when it does, both partners have been heard to say, "Now we sponsor each other."  From the AA Pamphlet Questions and Answers on Sponsorship  --- On Mon, 6/22/09, allan_gengler wrote: From: allan_gengler Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: History of sponsorship To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, June 22, 2009, 12:45 PM Even though SPONSORSHIP is not mentioned in the book Alcoholics Anonymous (The Big Book) I would suggest that sponsorship was the rule, from the beginning, and not something added later. Bill called Ebby his sponsor until death, even though Ebby slipped a few times. But the chain of sponsorship starts with Rowland Hazard, who sponsored Shep Cornell and Cebra Graves, who sponsored Ebby, who sponsored Bill, who sponsored Bob who, together, sponsored Bill D., etc. In "Dr. Bob and the Good Old Timers," it's clear that NO ONE just sauntered in off the streets and decided to join AA. Instead they were sponsored into the group FROM a hospital and wouldn't even attend a meeting unless they went through Dr. Bob's Upper Room treatment where they "made a surrender," often a key element missing from modern AA. Also in that book it's described how the group got together and pooled their money to bus a guy in who "supposedly" was the first to get sober on JUST THE BOOK. When the bus arrived and a man, matching his description, didn't get off the bus, the group asked the bus driver. They were told of a guy under the seat drunk on his but. The group of sober drunks, of course, helped the drunk off and began to sponsor him. I always thought that was interesting and have often wondered if it was truly possible to get sober ON THE BOOK ALONE. Even if you did, you would need to take the advice in A Vision For You and seek out drunks to form a fellowship, thus becoming a sponsor. I think the real question is when did sponsorship become optional and how sober drunks stopped seeking to sponsor and waited for someone to ask them. Or even the notion of being told "you must get a sponsor," when did that start. Luckily and man decided to be my sponsor so I never got to make that misguided decision in the beginning. --Al --- In AAHistoryLovers@ yahoogroups. com, Charlie C wrote: > >   I have been revisiting the "Little Red Book," a title discussed here at times, and was struck by the way it recommends doing one's 5th Step with a non-AA, e.g. a clergyman, doctor... In discussing the 8th Step, it mentions that one may want to refer to "older members" when unsure of how to proceed with amends. In neither place is a sponsor mentioned. >  >   My understanding is that the Little Red Book represents AA practice of the 1940s, in particular that developed by Dr. Bob. Is this correct? >  >   Most of all though, I am curious: when did sponsorship as we know it today become the norm? When did the tradition, suggested in the Big Book, of discussing one's 5th Step with an outsider become the exception, and using one's sponsor the rule? Are there any interviews with old timers or other records documenting this shift? Thanks, I learn so much from this group! > > Charlie C. > IM = route20guy > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5816. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: History of sponsorship From: Jon Markle . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/23/2009 1:59:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Although the word "sponsor" or "sponsorship" does not appear in the first 164 pages of the Big Book, the whole chapter on "Working with others" certainly very well defines it. Perhaps the only reason the word was not used is that the membership at the time simply did not use that word/label as something associated with AA. "Sponsor" had a completely different meaning back then. And it would have been foreign, even conflicting, with the basic concept of our program at the time. Today, we know it differently. And it fits the description found in the Big Book, "Working with Others". However, not long after the Big Book was published, another text was written, which DOES use the word and clearly by then, it was in common use and application. It is a part of the AA program that is not only "suggested" but essentially, a "must" if we want the full benefits of real recovery. Only those who are isolationists think otherwise. IMO. Hugs for the trudge. Jon (Raleigh) 9/9/82 "The violets in the mountains have broken the rocks." (Tennessee Williams) "Hope is the feeling we have that the feeling we have is not permanent." (M.McLaughlin) "You know, I occasionally watch those preachers on the Christian TV stations. I always think to myself: How can I believe your theology when I can't believe your hair?" (Patricia Clarkson) On Jun 23, 2009, at 3:17 AM, John R Reid wrote: > Please refer to 100 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: allan_gengler > To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 5:45 AM > Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: History of sponsorship > > > > > > Even though SPONSORSHIP is not mentioned in the book Alcoholics > Anonymous (The Big Book) I would suggest that sponsorship was the > rule, from the beginning, and not something added later. > > Bill called Ebby his sponsor until death, even though Ebby slipped > a few times. But the chain of sponsorship starts with Rowland > Hazard, who sponsored Shep Cornell and Cebra Graves, who sponsored > Ebby, who sponsored Bill, who sponsored Bob who, together, sponsored > Bill D., etc. > > In "Dr. Bob and the Good Old Timers," it's clear that NO ONE just > sauntered in off the streets and decided to join AA. Instead they > were sponsored into the group FROM a hospital and wouldn't even > attend a meeting unless they went through Dr. Bob's Upper Room > treatment where they "made a surrender," often a key element missing > from modern AA. > > Also in that book it's described how the group got together and > pooled their money to bus a guy in who "supposedly" was the first to > get sober on JUST THE BOOK. When the bus arrived and a man, matching > his description, didn't get off the bus, the group asked the bus > driver. They were told of a guy under the seat drunk on his but. The > group of sober drunks, of course, helped the drunk off and began to > sponsor him. > > I always thought that was interesting and have often wondered if it > was truly possible to get sober ON THE BOOK ALONE. Even if you did, > you would need to take the advice in A Vision For You and seek out > drunks to form a fellowship, thus becoming a sponsor. > > I think the real question is when did sponsorship become optional > and how sober drunks stopped seeking to sponsor and waited for > someone to ask them. Or even the notion of being told "you must get > a sponsor," when did that start. Luckily and man decided to be my > sponsor so I never got to make that misguided decision in the > beginning. > > --Al > > --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Charlie C > wrote: >> >> I have been revisiting the "Little Red Book," a title discussed >> here at times, and was struck by the way it recommends doing one's >> 5th Step with a non-AA, e.g. a clergyman, doctor... In discussing >> the 8th Step, it mentions that one may want to refer to "older >> members" when unsure of how to proceed with amends. In neither >> place is a sponsor mentioned. >> >> My understanding is that the Little Red Book represents AA >> practice of the 1940s, in particular that developed by Dr. Bob. Is >> this correct? >> >> Most of all though, I am curious: when did sponsorship as we know >> it today become the norm? When did the tradition, suggested in the >> Big Book, of discussing one's 5th Step with an outsider become the >> exception, and using one's sponsor the rule? Are there any >> interviews with old timers or other records documenting this shift? >> Thanks, I learn so much from this group! >> >> Charlie C. >> IM = route20guy >> > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5817. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Mayflower Hotel to Sieberling Gatehouse.....transportation? From: barefootbill@optonline.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/23/2009 3:57:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I had asked the same question to Ray G., archivist at Dr. Bob's House & Ray said that Bill probably walked to Henrietta's (about three & a half miles). After talking to Dr. Bob, Bill was offered a ride back to the Mayflower but said he would rather walk. Just Love, Barefoot Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: Gregory Harris Date: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 1:14 pm Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Mayflower Hotel to Sieberling Gatehouse.....transportation? To: aahistorylovers@yahoogroups.com > Hello all > There is some discussion in our local group...this is along the > lines of trivia but some of us are curious....does anyone know > HOW Bill got from the hotel to the Gatehouse (i.e. bus..cab..or > what?) Thanks > Greg H. in Illinois > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5818. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Wino Joe? From: Wesley Brauer . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/23/2009 6:16:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dear Dave, I first heard " Wino Joe's " recording at a meeting in Tullahoma Tenn. I remember laughing at that list but for the life of me I cannot recall it .Itr was a great lead ! Wes ________________________________ From: doci333 To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 4:21:37 PM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Wino Joe? Hi All, I heard from the Joe and Charlie Tapes, mention "Wino Joe's" list of being an alcoholic. Joe mentioned only 2 or three from this humorous list. Anyone have the list. AA Love and Hugs, Dave G. Illinois [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5819. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "People places things" From: t . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/24/2009 12:57:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII here are a few examples of this phrase that I have run across. All but the first are from the AA Grapevine I'll paste the whole paragraph [not whole article though] so the phrase can be seen in the context it was used. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----\ ----------------------- from "As Bill Sees It" [page/reading 251] "Are you really placing recovery first, or are you making it contingent upon other people, places, or circumstances? You may find it ever so much better to face the music right where you are now, and, with the help of the A.A. program, win through. Before you make a decision, weigh it in these terms." LETTER, 1949 ---------------------- AA Grapevine, August 1971 from article titled "Now I Want Myself" by F.H., Chicago, Ill. AA has given me keen insight into my limitations, and it enables me each day to remove myself from people, places, and things that tend to threaten my sobriety. Since being in AA, I have gained more friends than I could ever have imagined, friends who sincerely care about me and my welfare. I have one friend in particular, whom I call my guardian angel. Recently, I was in an automobile accident that almost cost me the use of my writing hand, and she encouraged me to write. ---------------------- AA Grapevine, June 1978 from a letter by D. H. from San Francisco, Calif.: When are we going to learn to be responsible for our own feelings? Let's grow up and stop blaming "people, places, and things" for our feelings. ---------------------- AA Grapevine, July 1981 from an article titled "Steps to Awareness" by T.J., Houston, Tex. The First Step gave me my first step in identity. I had always looked outside myself — for my name, for the answer to all my needs. I looked to people, places, and things and, of course, to booze. Ironically, the alcohol I used to find answers gave me the first step in identity — I am an alcoholic. ---------------------- AA Grapevine, September 1981 from an article titled "Action Begins at Home" by C.A., Houston, Tex. The thought of spending hours and hours with me, just me, threw me into a terrifying, gut-wrenching panic. Alone within my four walls, I finally had to face the fact that in all those months of staying busy, I had taken no real action at all. I had completed tasks, even AA tasks like a Fourth and Fifth Step and a daily Tenth Step, but I had done them as a child does homework to avoid getting in trouble with his teacher at school. I finally realized that I had used constant activity, the distraction of people, places, and things, to avoid bumping into myself. ---------------------- Grapevine, February 1983 from an article titled "Acceptance" by E.B., Dover, Del. intro states: She finally stopped blaming people, places, and things for her drinking and in the article: Only this time, I realized I was drinking because I wanted to and not because of any other people, places, or things. I could finally see the truth of what I had been told so many times: We get drunk because we take that first drink, not for any other reason. My emotions finally caught up with my intellect, and the two merged for a short time. ---------------------- Grapevine, July 1984 from an article titled "Sobriety Is an Inside Job" by L.P., Huntsville, Tex. After several months in prison, my attitude toward people, places, things, and ideas was still very poor a lot of times. I hid this as best I could. The AA program was getting into a lot of areas of my life — what a revelation! Now another action step was required, because I had become more conscious of yet another character defect after these few months of youthful sobriety. ---------------------- Grapevine, March 1988 from a letter by E. B. of Wentzville, Mo.: As I read the November issue on sponsorship, I felt the usual reactions which I feel when I read the Grapevine: I agree with this person, this person is way off base, but I guess it works for them, etc. However, my overall feeling was one of indifference. I didn't have a lot of interest in an issue on sponsorship because there was no direct connection to my program. After all, I had gone by the book. Shortly after treatment I got a sponsor who helped me through the Steps and helped me keep in balance when people, places, and things started to become my higher power. I always appreciated him very much and didn't take him for granted. We saw each other once a week and I called him once a week. On the other side of the coin my few attempts at sponsorship were disappointing. As you can see, the issue didn't apply to me since my little world was all neat and tidy. Then I got a phone call from a friend in the Fellowship last Saturday. My sponsor had died suddenly of a heart attack. I had never in my life had to deal with such a loss. The immediate feeling of aloneness was hard to bear. ---------------------- AA Grapevine, May 1989 from an article titled "Bingo Card of Life" by Joseph O., Meade, Md. I was close to being chaptered out of the Army with a bad conduct discharge. I had two article fifteens, one court-martial, seventeen days AWOL, thirty days' stockade time, and barely six months in the Army. Never mind the countless jobs I'd lost on the outside and my two alcohol-related civilian convictions. Drinking wasn't my problem; it was people, places and things. I wasn't sick — everyone else was. I wasn't ready for the First Step. I couldn't admit my powerlessness over alcohol or the unmanageability in my life. ---------------------- AA Grapevine, April 1994 from an article title "Time for Transition" by Annemarie M., Raynham, Mass. I'm in an entirely new professional setting now. It has not been dull. I don't drink and I go to AA meetings. I'm even more aware of just how powerless I am over other people, places, and things. Change has challenged me to turn more than ever to my home group, my sponsor, my service work in AA, my sponsees, the Steps, Traditions, and Concepts. To the God of my understanding, asking only for knowledge of his will for me . . . and the power to carry that out. ---------------------- AA Grapevine, December 1995 from an article titled "Singleness of Purpose" by Lynn J., Saint John, N.B. When I first came into the program, I didn't understand anything about the disease of alcoholism and how it had made my life unmanageable. I thought that people, places, and things were the real problems. It took AA members with good long-term sobriety to help me get the focus back on me. When newcomers come in talking about outside issues, it's my responsibility to keep things on track in the same loving and careful way that others used to walk me through my early sobriety. ---------------------- Grapevine, January 1997 from an article titled "A Powerful Assignment" by Ben N., White Plains, New York Nervous? Yes, I was. As the phone was ringing, I rehearsed what I was going to say. But I was already quite proud of what I knew that I knew about the First Step. Then Vince answered. Everything got jumbled up but he put me at ease and I began to explain the First Step to him. I told him about the unmanageability — that my life had become very small; everything reduced to shoebox size. There wasn't very much in my life and no room for people. Then I launched into a dissertation on powerlessness. I really couldn't wait to get to this. I mentioned how we were powerless over people, places, and things. On and on I went, giving various examples — this was a full-blown, definitely AA-grounded, exposition. I waited for Vince to tell me how wonderfully I'd mastered the Step. I was ready to swell with pride. Then, in a soft voice he said: "It says 'powerless over alcohol.' " ------------------------------ AA Grapevine, April 1997 from an article titled "From Two-Stepping to Twelve-Stepping" by John M., Santa Barbara, California I learned from Al-Anon and private therapy that I'm powerless not only over alcohol, but also people, places, and things. ------------------------------ Grapevine, July 1997 from an article titled "EVERYTHING TO GAIN AND NOTHING TO LOSE" by Niurka R., Houston, Texas I've been in and out of several juvenile and adult penal institutions. I always made resolutions to change and never return. At the age of eighteen attempted to attend AA meetings in prison to change my life around and combat my alcoholism, but there was no sincerity in my heart. was only doing it for my mother and to please other people; it wasn't for myself. When I was released I went back to the old people, places, and things that caused me to pay so much. I still viewed the drinking life as being fun. I was reincarcerated again at the age of twenty. I've been here now for sixteen months. This time I've had an opportunity to sit and take a personal inventory of my life. I came to the conclusion that I want to change and need to change if I am to live. I was never more serious about anything in my life. I've started attending AA meetings and substance abuse meetings, and reading my Big Book every day. ------------------------------ AA Grapevine, September 1997 from an article titled "Reintroduced To Myself" by Jody B., New Bern, North Carolina The seed of AA was there, and on mornings when I hurt physically and didn't remember the night before, I'd wonder: should I give AA a fair shot? For six months I'd pull a few days together, then celebrate with a drink. I really felt as though I was going crazy. I was afraid to believe in a higher power and I continued downhill, never remembering the night before, still going to AA while comparing my way out. I was constitutionally incapable of being honest. The law brought me to my bottom and I decided to give AA an honest try. At twenty-three months sober, I had changed people, places, and things, gotten a sponsor, and worked Steps One through Five. I was doing the things suggested but I still felt alone and didn't know myself. ------------------------------ Jon Markle wrote: I don't want to debate this here. (I have, obviously a different experience ). I just want to find out where or how it got into the rooms of AA. It's not in the Big Book. I don't think it's in any of AA's other literature or textbooks, either, but I can't say that with complete authority -- yet. Thanks. Hugs for the trudge Jon (Raleigh) 9/9/82 From: Jon Markle Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] "People places things" To: "AAHistoryLovers" Date: Sunday, June 21, 2009, 9:45 PM Where does the concept of powerlessness over "people, places and things" come from? Hugs for the trudge. Jon (Raleigh) 9/9/82 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5820. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "People places things" From: Jon Markle . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/23/2009 8:33:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Just to update some research on this question. I looked up the suggested references given here so far, for Al-anon and NA. I do not find that this concept "powerless over people places and things" is founded in either of those two 12-step programs referred to here in the answers given so far. Certainly not Al-anon, and certainly not NA. Those references have to do with something else. Any other suggestions? Thanks. Hugs for the trudge. Jon (Raleigh) 9/9/82 "The violets in the mountains have broken the rocks." (Tennessee Williams) "Hope is the feeling we have that the feeling we have is not permanent." (M.McLaughlin) "You know, I occasionally watch those preachers on the Christian TV stations. I always think to myself: How can I believe your theology when I can't believe your hair?" (Patricia Clarkson) On Jun 23, 2009, at 2:11 AM, Jon Markle wrote: > I don't want to debate this here. (I have, obiously a different > experience ). > > I just want to find out where or how it got into the rooms of AA. > > It's not in the Big Book. I don't think it's in any of AA's other > literature or textbooks, either, but I can't say that with complete > authority -- yet. > > Thanks. > > Hugs for the trudge > Jon (Raleigh) > 9/9/82 > > If it appears I was all thumbs when I wrote this, I was! Sent from > my iPhone. > > On Jun 22, 2009, at 3:20 PM, James Flynn wrote: > >> The notion that we are "powerless over people places and things" >> comes directly from Al-Anon and has nothing to do with avoiding >> anything. It is all about acceptance of other people's, things or >> situations as autonomous. A similiar concept promoted by Al-Anon is >> known as "the three C's." That is I didn't cause it, I can't >> control it and I can't cure it. It is the conclusion that one >> reaches when one aknowledges their limitations and finally >> understands that certain things have to be left in God's hands. >> You could say it is the realization that I am not God and that >> pretending otherwise is just inviting another lesson in futility. >> Basically it's about letting GO and letting God, rather than >> playing God. >> >> Jim F. >> >> --- On Mon, 6/22/09, johnlawlee@yahoo.com >> wrote: >> >> >> From: johnlawlee@yahoo.com >> Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] "People places things" >> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com >> Date: Monday, June 22, 2009, 7:20 AM >> >> >> The cliche "people, places and things" comes from the Basic Text >> of Narcotics Anonymous, specifically page 15 of the Sixth Edition. >> It's not found in the AA literature, and it is contradictory to the >> AA message. The NA Basic Text converts the >> three pertinent ideas of the BIg Book to "three disturbing >> realizations. " The third "disturbing realization" is , "we can no >> longer blame people, places and things for our addiction." >> The treatment industry has gotten ahold of the NA language and >> converted it to a claim that "we are [supposedly] powerless over >> people, places and things" or even worse, that "we should avoid >> people, places and things." >> The "people places things" cliche is absent from the basic >> literature of AA; more importantly, the cliche is contradictory to >> the AA message. Page 102 of the Big Book assures us, "...any >> scheme...which proposes to shield the sick man from temptation is >> doomed...he usually winds up with a bigger explosion... " The Big >> Book also indicates that we don't stay powerless over people. Page >> 132 of the AA basic text promises, "We have recovered, and been >> given the power to help others." >> Nothing in the basic literature of AA says we're powerless. >> The FIrst Step doesn't say we're powerless. It's in the past tense, >> The FIrst Step says that we WERE powerless, that we USED TO BE >> powerless [before taking all 12 Steps]. The Big Book further >> indicates that we don't stay powerless over people. Page 132 of the >> Big Book promises, "we have recovered and been the power to help >> others." To claim that "we stay powerless" , or that "we'll >> always be powerless" is the exact opposite of the AA message. >> love+service >> John Lee >> Pittsburgh-- - On Sun, 6/21/09, Jon Markle >> wrote: >> >> From: Jon Markle >> Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] "People places things" >> To: "AAHistoryLovers" >> Date: Sunday, June 21, 2009, 9:45 PM >> >> Where does the concept of powerlessness over "people, places and >> things" come from? >> >> Hugs for the trudge. >> >> Jon (Raleigh) >> 9/9/82 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5821. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill and Ebby Picture From: momaria33772 . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/23/2009 1:33:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I am looking for a picture of Bill and Ebby lying on the grass. I remember seeing this and can't seem to remember where. can someone give me a steer? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5822. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Re: "People places things" From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/23/2009 5:50:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The inquiry comes from the previous message concerning the validity of page Dr. Paul's quote from page 417. The answer: The stories in the second section of the book are not considered as the clear cut directions. Please read page 29: "Further on clear cut directions are given showing how we recovered. These are followed by forty-two personal experiences." The personal experiences are not the clear cut directions. Bob S. www.4dgroups.org ================================================================= From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of bridgetsbuddy Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 9:39 AM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: "People places things" What about this one? "When I am disturbed, it is because I find some person, place, thing, or situation -- some fact of my life -- unacceptable to me, and I can find no serenity until I accept that person, place, thing, or situation as being exactly the way it is supposed to be at this moment." ("Acceptance was the Answer," BB, 4th Ed., p.417) No? --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com , Jon Markle wrote: > > Where does the concept of powerlessness over "people, places and > things" come from? > > Hugs for the trudge. > > Jon (Raleigh) > 9/9/82 > > "The violets in the mountains have broken the rocks." (Tennessee > Williams) > > "Hope is the feeling we have that the feeling we have is not > permanent." (M.McLaughlin) > > "You know, I occasionally watch those preachers on the Christian TV > stations. I always think to myself: How can I believe your theology > when I can't believe your hair?" (Patricia Clarkson) > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5823. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "People places things" From: Jon Markle . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/24/2009 6:27:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The phrase, "powerless over people, places and things" is not in the ODATT . . . at least I can't find it in my copy. Can you site the page for me, if you found such reference . . . The concept of not having power over another human being has to do with control issues and detachment skills in Al-anon as applied to making someone else stop drinking -- which converts to "powerless over alcohol", but has nothing or little to do with the phrase I'm trying to trace, "Powerless over people places and things." That specific phrase and concept is what I am attempting to trace, for origin and how it got accepted as "gospel" in AA meetings. Thanks. Hugs for the trudge. Jon (Raleigh) 9/9/82 "The violets in the mountains have broken the rocks." (Tennessee Williams) "Hope is the feeling we have that the feeling we have is not permanent." (M.McLaughlin) "You know, I occasionally watch those preachers on the Christian TV stations. I always think to myself: How can I believe your theology when I can't believe your hair?" (Patricia Clarkson) On Jun 22, 2009, at 2:29 PM, James Flynn wrote: > The phrase can be found in the Al-Anon literature specifically the > ODATT Daily Meditation Book. It does not come from the much > maligned treatment industry! > > Sincerely, Jim F. > > - IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5824. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "People places things" From: Jon Markle . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/24/2009 7:12:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII My . . . thanks for all that hard work. Unfortunately, concrete evidence of the phrase "powerless over people places and things" is still very illusive. The phrase / concept I'm trying to trace is *POWERLESS OVER PEOPLE PLACES AND THINGS" . . . not just the words/phrase, "people places and things". There's a big difference. In fact almost all of these quotes are in contexts that appear to reference empowerment . . . not powerlessness . . . and the emphasis is on "over alcohol" with regard to "powerlessness" . . . The only one that did directly reference the phrase, Grapevine article April 1994, the writer seems to contradict herself . . . as being powerless over people places and things, then through prayer, becoming empowered . . . I guess the whole article there would clarify. But, as this quote stands, it's a weak argument at best. More indicative of the error of quoting such a thing in an AA meeting as "gospel". It has no reference to any AA material at all. Just that one person's opinion which upon thoughtful reflection, is obviously confused. The quote I really latched on to, as one might suspect : > "Then I launched into a dissertation on > powerlessness. I really couldn't wait to get to this. I mentioned > how we > were powerless over people, places, and things. On and on I went, > giving > various examples — this was a full-blown, definitely AA-grounded, > exposition. I waited for Vince to tell me how wonderfully I'd mastered > the Step. I was ready to swell with pride. Then, in a soft voice he > said: "It says 'powerless over alcohol.' " Another couple of quotes seems to suggest agreement with some contributors here that it comes out of therapy or treatment. I dispute that claim as unfounded, because I am retired from that field and it is not a concept that I would suggest to any client. Far from the opposite, in fact. It would appear from the responses here and subsequent review of referenced materials that even the notion that it's from Al-anon, is about as factual as saying it's from AA. But, thanks. Hugs for the trudge. Jon (Raleigh) 9/9/82 "The violets in the mountains have broken the rocks." (Tennessee Williams) "Hope is the feeling we have that the feeling we have is not permanent." (M.McLaughlin) "You know, I occasionally watch those preachers on the Christian TV stations. I always think to myself: How can I believe your theology when I can't believe your hair?" (Patricia Clarkson) On Jun 24, 2009, at 12:57 AM, t wrote: > > here are a few examples of this phrase that I have run across. All but > the first are from the AA Grapevine > I'll paste the whole paragraph [not whole article though] so the > phrase > can be seen in the context it was used. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----\ ----------------------- > > from "As Bill Sees It" [page/reading 251] > "Are you really placing recovery first, or are you making it > contingent > upon other people, places, or circumstances? You may find it ever so > much better to face the music right where you are now, and, with the > help of the A.A. program, win through. Before you make a decision, > weigh > it in these terms." > > LETTER, 1949 > > ---------------------- > AA Grapevine, August 1971 > from article titled "Now I Want Myself" by F.H., Chicago, Ill. > > AA has given me keen insight into my limitations, and it enables me > each > day to remove myself from people, places, and things that tend to > threaten my sobriety. Since being in AA, I have gained more friends > than > I could ever have imagined, friends who sincerely care about me and my > welfare. I have one friend in particular, whom I call my guardian > angel. > Recently, I was in an automobile accident that almost cost me the > use of > my writing hand, and she encouraged me to write. > > ---------------------- > AA Grapevine, June 1978 > from a letter by D. H. from San Francisco, Calif.: > > When are we going to learn to be responsible for our own feelings? > Let's > grow up and stop blaming "people, places, and things" for our > feelings. > > ---------------------- > AA Grapevine, July 1981 > from an article titled "Steps to Awareness" by T.J., Houston, Tex. > > The First Step gave me my first step in identity. I had always looked > outside myself — for my name, for the answer to all my needs. I looked > to people, places, and things and, of course, to booze. Ironically, > the > alcohol I used to find answers gave me the first step in identity — > I am > an alcoholic. > > ---------------------- > AA Grapevine, September 1981 > from an article titled "Action Begins at Home" by C.A., Houston, Tex. > > The thought of spending hours and hours with me, just me, threw me > into > a terrifying, gut-wrenching panic. Alone within my four walls, I > finally > had to face the fact that in all those months of staying busy, I had > taken no real action at all. I had completed tasks, even AA tasks > like a > Fourth and Fifth Step and a daily Tenth Step, but I had done them as a > child does homework to avoid getting in trouble with his teacher at > school. I finally realized that I had used constant activity, the > distraction of people, places, and things, to avoid bumping into > myself. > > ---------------------- > Grapevine, February 1983 > from an article titled "Acceptance" by E.B., Dover, Del. > > intro states: > She finally stopped blaming people, places, and things for her > drinking > > and in the article: > Only this time, I realized I was drinking because I wanted to and not > because of any other people, places, or things. I could finally see > the > truth of what I had been told so many times: We get drunk because we > take that first drink, not for any other reason. My emotions finally > caught up with my intellect, and the two merged for a short time. > > ---------------------- > Grapevine, July 1984 > from an article titled "Sobriety Is an Inside Job" by L.P., > Huntsville, Tex. > > After several months in prison, my attitude toward people, places, > things, and ideas was still very poor a lot of times. I hid this as > best > I could. The AA program was getting into a lot of areas of my life — > what a revelation! Now another action step was required, because I had > become more conscious of yet another character defect after these few > months of youthful sobriety. > > ---------------------- > Grapevine, March 1988 > from a letter by E. B. of Wentzville, Mo.: > > As I read the November issue on sponsorship, I felt the usual > reactions > which I feel when I read the Grapevine: I agree with this person, this > person is way off base, but I guess it works for them, etc. However, > my > overall feeling was one of indifference. I didn't have a lot of > interest > in an issue on sponsorship because there was no direct connection to > my > program. After all, I had gone by the book. Shortly after treatment I > got a sponsor who helped me through the Steps and helped me keep in > balance when people, places, and things started to become my higher > power. I always appreciated him very much and didn't take him for > granted. We saw each other once a week and I called him once a week. > On > the other side of the coin my few attempts at sponsorship were > disappointing. As you can see, the issue didn't apply to me since my > little world was all neat and tidy. Then I got a phone call from a > friend in the Fellowship last Saturday. My sponsor had died suddenly > of > a heart attack. I had never in my life had to deal with such a loss. > The > immediate feeling of aloneness was hard to bear. > > ---------------------- > AA Grapevine, May 1989 > from an article titled "Bingo Card of Life" by Joseph O., Meade, Md. > > I was close to being chaptered out of the Army with a bad conduct > discharge. I had two article fifteens, one court-martial, seventeen > days > AWOL, thirty days' stockade time, and barely six months in the Army. > Never mind the countless jobs I'd lost on the outside and my two > alcohol-related civilian convictions. Drinking wasn't my problem; it > was > people, places and things. I wasn't sick — everyone else was. I wasn't > ready for the First Step. I couldn't admit my powerlessness over > alcohol > or the unmanageability in my life. > > ---------------------- > AA Grapevine, April 1994 > from an article title "Time for Transition" by Annemarie M., > Raynham, Mass. > > I'm in an entirely new professional setting now. It has not been > dull. I > don't drink and I go to AA meetings. I'm even more aware of just how > powerless I am over other people, places, and things. Change has > challenged me to turn more than ever to my home group, my sponsor, my > service work in AA, my sponsees, the Steps, Traditions, and > Concepts. To > the God of my understanding, asking only for knowledge of his will for > me . . . and the power to carry that out. > > ---------------------- > AA Grapevine, December 1995 > from an article titled "Singleness of Purpose" by Lynn J., Saint > John, N.B. > > When I first came into the program, I didn't understand anything about > the disease of alcoholism and how it had made my life unmanageable. I > thought that people, places, and things were the real problems. It > took > AA members with good long-term sobriety to help me get the focus > back on > me. When newcomers come in talking about outside issues, it's my > responsibility to keep things on track in the same loving and careful > way that others used to walk me through my early sobriety. > > ---------------------- > Grapevine, January 1997 > from an article titled "A Powerful Assignment" by Ben N., White > Plains, > New York > > Nervous? Yes, I was. As the phone was ringing, I rehearsed what I was > going to say. But I was already quite proud of what I knew that I knew > about the First Step. Then Vince answered. Everything got jumbled up > but > he put me at ease and I began to explain the First Step to him. I told > him about the unmanageability — that my life had become very small; > everything reduced to shoebox size. There wasn't very much in my life > and no room for people. Then I launched into a dissertation on > powerlessness. I really couldn't wait to get to this. I mentioned > how we > were powerless over people, places, and things. On and on I went, > giving > various examples — this was a full-blown, definitely AA-grounded, > exposition. I waited for Vince to tell me how wonderfully I'd mastered > the Step. I was ready to swell with pride. Then, in a soft voice he > said: "It says 'powerless over alcohol.' " > > ------------------------------ > AA Grapevine, April 1997 > from an article titled "From Two-Stepping to Twelve-Stepping" by John > M., Santa Barbara, California > > I learned from Al-Anon and private therapy that I'm powerless not only > over alcohol, but also people, places, and things. > > ------------------------------ > Grapevine, July 1997 > from an article titled "EVERYTHING TO GAIN AND NOTHING TO LOSE" by > Niurka R., Houston, Texas > > I've been in and out of several juvenile and adult penal > institutions. I > always made resolutions to change and never return. At the age of > eighteen attempted to attend AA meetings in prison to change my life > around and combat my alcoholism, but there was no sincerity in my > heart. > was only doing it for my mother and to please other people; it wasn't > for myself. When I was released I went back to the old people, places, > and things that caused me to pay so much. I still viewed the drinking > life as being fun. I was reincarcerated again at the age of twenty. > I've > been here now for sixteen months. This time I've had an opportunity to > sit and take a personal inventory of my life. I came to the conclusion > that I want to change and need to change if I am to live. I was never > more serious about anything in my life. I've started attending AA > meetings and substance abuse meetings, and reading my Big Book every > day. > > ------------------------------ > AA Grapevine, September 1997 > from an article titled "Reintroduced To Myself" by Jody B., New Bern, > North Carolina > > The seed of AA was there, and on mornings when I hurt physically and > didn't remember the night before, I'd wonder: should I give AA a fair > shot? For six months I'd pull a few days together, then celebrate > with a > drink. I really felt as though I was going crazy. I was afraid to > believe in a higher power and I continued downhill, never remembering > the night before, still going to AA while comparing my way out. I was > constitutionally incapable of being honest. The law brought me to my > bottom and I decided to give AA an honest try. At twenty-three months > sober, I had changed people, places, and things, gotten a sponsor, and > worked Steps One through Five. I was doing the things suggested but I > still felt alone and didn't know myself. > > ------------------------------ > > > > Jon Markle wrote: > > I don't want to debate this here. (I have, obviously a different > experience ). > > I just want to find out where or how it got into the rooms of AA. > > It's not in the Big Book. I don't think it's in any of AA's other > literature or textbooks, either, but I can't say that with complete > authority -- yet. > > Thanks. > > Hugs for the trudge > Jon (Raleigh) > 9/9/82 > > > > From: Jon Markle > Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] "People places things" > To: "AAHistoryLovers" > Date: Sunday, June 21, 2009, 9:45 PM > > Where does the concept of powerlessness over "people, places and > things" come from? > > Hugs for the trudge. > > Jon (Raleigh) > 9/9/82 > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5825. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: History of sponsorship From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/24/2009 4:35:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In a message dated 6/24/2009 1:51:54 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, serenitylodge@mac.com writes: It is a part of the AA program that is not only "suggested" but essentially, a "must" if we want the full benefits of real recovery. Only those who are isolationists think otherwise. IMO. Bill W said there was no dogma. Is there dogma now? We have to be careful we do not end up a cult. The only way not to be a cult is not to do cultist things. **************Check all of your email inboxes from anywhere on the web. Try the new Email Toolbar now! (http://toolbar.aol.com/mail/download.html?ncid=txtlnkusdown00000027) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5826. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: "Powerless over people places things" From: johnlawlee@yahoo.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/24/2009 7:56:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The topic is "powerless over people, places and things", wnich cliche is absent from the basic literature of AA, NA and Al-Anon. The topic is not "people, places and things." According to the Unofficial Big Book Search Engine, the word "people" is found on 78 pages of the basic text. "People" isn't the topic either. You won't find the cliche "powerless over people places things" in the basic literature of AA. You won't find it in the basic literature of NA or Al-Anon either. You won't locate the recommendation "avoid people places and things" in the basic literature of those three fellowships, although that nugget is heard frequently in rehabs, AA meetings and NA meeetings. You'll hear the chanting of "keep coming back" at virtually every AA meeting, but that's not in the basic text of AA either. I don't believe you'll find it in the Bigger Book either [the one with the black cover and ribbon]. Christ never said, "Keep coming back." He said, "Heal the sick...Freely have you received, freely give." In AA we carry the message to those who still suffer. Pass it on. John Lee Pittsburgh --- On Tue, 6/23/09, Robert Stonebraker wrote: From: Robert Stonebraker Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: "People places things" To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, June 23, 2009, 5:50 PM The inquiry comes from the previous message concerning the validity of page Dr. Paul's quote from page 417. The answer: The stories in the second section of the book are not considered as the clear cut directions. Please read page 29: "Further on clear cut directions are given showing how we recovered. These are followed by forty-two personal experiences. " The personal experiences are not the clear cut directions. Bob S. www.4dgroups. org ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= ======== From: AAHistoryLovers@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of bridgetsbuddy Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 9:39 AM To: AAHistoryLovers@ yahoogroups. com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: "People places things" What about this one? "When I am disturbed, it is because I find some person, place, thing, or situation -- some fact of my life -- unacceptable to me, and I can find no serenity until I accept that person, place, thing, or situation as being exactly the way it is supposed to be at this moment." ("Acceptance was the Answer," BB, 4th Ed., p.417) No? --- In AAHistoryLovers@ yahoogroups. com , Jon Markle wrote: > > Where does the concept of powerlessness over "people, places and > things" come from? > > Hugs for the trudge. > > Jon (Raleigh) > 9/9/82 > > "The violets in the mountains have broken the rocks." (Tennessee > Williams) > > "Hope is the feeling we have that the feeling we have is not > permanent." (M.McLaughlin) > > "You know, I occasionally watch those preachers on the Christian TV > stations. I always think to myself: How can I believe your theology > when I can't believe your hair?" (Patricia Clarkson) > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5827. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: History of sponsorship From: elg3_79 . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/24/2009 9:15:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII --- Jon Markle wrote: > > It [sponsorship] is a part of the AA program that is not only "suggested" but > essentially, a "must" if we want the full benefits of real recovery. > Only those who are isolationists think otherwise. IMO. > >> Just to play devil's advocate, Chuck Chamberlain in _A New Pair Of Glasses_ said "I've never had a sponsor in this program. Never." He elaborated (I can't hold on to a copy of that book and so don't have one to quote from exactly) that when he got to AA he didn't feel like he deserved that much attention from anyone, and when he began to get better, he used everyone to help him learn what to do and avoid doing. Clancy Imislund relates that when he made an appointment with Chuck to ask for sponsorship, Chuck made small talk with him until the question was popped and then said "My, I thought you were coming here to offer to sponsor _me_." Y'all's in service Ted G. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5828. . . . . . . . . . . . Pg 163 who is the AA member, the 2 psychiatrists, and the hospitals? From: rickcard47 . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/24/2009 11:21:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I am asuming that the large community is NY, but was wondering who the AA member was, and what the test was that "that the doctor agreed to a test among his patients". Also it mentions 2 psychiatrists, any ideas? And what was the hospital and clinic? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5829. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Pg 163 who is the AA member, the 2 psychiatrists, and the hospitals? From: Lee Carroll . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/24/2009 12:40:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The AA member was Hank Parhurst - he was living in Montclair NJ at the time. Prominent psychiatrist was Dr Howard of Montclair, NJ Second psychiatrist was Dr Russell E. Blaisdell, Rockland State Hospital near Orangeburg NY. My interpretation of ".the doctor agreed to a test among his patients." is not that he had a test, per se, but rather, to test this program, which our friend (Hank) had described. Lee Carroll, CPA (805) 938-1981 IRS Circular 230 Tax Advice Disclaimer: As required by U.S. Treasury Regulations governing tax practice, you are hereby advised that, if any advice concerning one or more U.S. Federal tax issues is contained in this communication (including any attachments), such advice is not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used, for the purpose of (i) avoiding penalties under the Internal Revenue Code or (ii) promoting, marketing or recommending to another party any transaction or matter addressed herein. _____ From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of rickcard47 Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 8:21 AM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Pg 163 who is the AA member, the 2 psychiatrists, and the hospitals? I am asuming that the large community is NY, but was wondering who the AA member was, and what the test was that "that the doctor agreed to a test among his patients". Also it mentions 2 psychiatrists, any ideas? And what was the hospital and clinic? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5830. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Pg 163 who is the AA member, the 2 psychiatrists, and the hospitals? From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/25/2009 9:04:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII For all the "Big Book Name, Place, & Date References" please go to: http://www.justloveaudio.com/resources/Assorted/Big_Book_Name_and_Date_Refer ences.pdf Just Love, Barefoot Bill -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of rickcard47 Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 11:21 AM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Pg 163 who is the AA member, the 2 psychiatrists, and the hospitals? I am asuming that the large community is NY, but was wondering who the AA member was, and what the test was that "that the doctor agreed to a test among his patients". Also it mentions 2 psychiatrists, any ideas? And what was the hospital and clinic? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5831. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: RE: "Powerless over people places things" From: James Flynn . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/24/2009 12:36:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII AA has a rich oral tradition which includes many sayings, slogans and common expressions. Some of these expressions can be found in the AA literature and others can't. Regardless of that fact, these saying and slogans are as much a part of authentic AA History as the coffee pot. AA is as AA does, and AA does use sayings and slogans. It always has and I believe that it always will. Sincerely, Jim F. --- On Wed, 6/24/09, johnlawlee@yahoo.com wrote: From: johnlawlee@yahoo.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: "Powerless over people places things" To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, June 24, 2009, 4:56 AM The topic is "powerless over people, places and things", wnich cliche is absent from the basic literature of AA, NA and Al-Anon. The topic is not "people, places and things." According to the Unofficial Big Book Search Engine, the word "people" is found on 78 pages of the basic text. "People" isn't the topic either. You won't find the cliche "powerless over people places things" in the basic literature of AA. You won't find it in the basic literature of NA or Al-Anon either. You won't locate the recommendation "avoid people places and things" in the basic literature of those three fellowships, although that nugget is heard frequently in rehabs, AA meetings and NA meeetings. You'll hear the chanting of "keep coming back" at virtually every AA meeting, but that's not in the basic text of AA either. I don't believe you'll find it in the Bigger Book either [the one with the black cover and ribbon]. Christ never said, "Keep coming back." He said, "Heal the sick...Freely have you received, freely give." In AA we carry the message to those who still suffer. Pass it on. John Lee Pittsburgh --- On Tue, 6/23/09, Robert Stonebraker wrote: From: Robert Stonebraker Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: "People places things" To: AAHistoryLovers@ yahoogroups. com Date: Tuesday, June 23, 2009, 5:50 PM The inquiry comes from the previous message concerning the validity of page Dr. Paul's quote from page 417. The answer: The stories in the second section of the book are not considered as the clear cut directions. Please read page 29: "Further on clear cut directions are given showing how we recovered. These are followed by forty-two personal experiences. " The personal experiences are not the clear cut directions. Bob S. www.4dgroups. org ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= ======== From: AAHistoryLovers@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:AAHistoryLo vers@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of bridgetsbuddy Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 9:39 AM To: AAHistoryLovers@ yahoogroups. com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: "People places things" What about this one? "When I am disturbed, it is because I find some person, place, thing, or situation -- some fact of my life -- unacceptable to me, and I can find no serenity until I accept that person, place, thing, or situation as being exactly the way it is supposed to be at this moment." ("Acceptance was the Answer," BB, 4th Ed., p.417) No? --- In AAHistoryLovers@ yahoogroups. com , Jon Markle wrote: > > Where does the concept of powerlessness over "people, places and > things" come from? > > Hugs for the trudge. > > Jon (Raleigh) > 9/9/82 > > "The violets in the mountains have broken the rocks." (Tennessee > Williams) > > "Hope is the feeling we have that the feeling we have is not > permanent." (M.McLaughlin) > > "You know, I occasionally watch those preachers on the Christian TV > stations. I always think to myself: How can I believe your theology > when I can't believe your hair?" (Patricia Clarkson) > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5832. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: RE: "Powerless over people places things" From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/26/2009 3:46:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Among the plethora of ideas discussed by our pioneers - for example, establishing "AA" hospitals - about the only one to survive was the decision to publish the Big Book. Early members were aware that the message could be diluted, distorted and misrepresented when passed on orally. The slogans which adorn the walls at so many AA meetings are not Conference-approved; though three of them appear at the end of chapter nine in the Big Book, viz: First Things First; Live and Let Live; Easy Does It. One slogan - There but for the grace of God - is contentious, suggesting as it does that some alcoholics are chosen for salvation and others condemned. Likewise, the Serenity Prayer is not Conference-approved, though undoubtedly an established part of our oral tradition. So, unless tested by the Fellowship's group conscience as expressed at Conference, expressions heard at meetings, like e.g. Keep it simple stupid, should be taken with a pinch of salt. Some are more helpful than others; some are contrary to our tradition, e.g. "It (addiction) is all the same illness." Laurie A. To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com From: jdf10487@yahoo.com Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 09:36:02 -0700 Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: "Powerless over people places things" AA has a rich oral tradition which includes many sayings, slogans and common expressions. Some of these expressions can be found in the AA literature and others can't. Regardless of that fact, these saying and slogans are as much a part of authentic AA History as the coffee pot. AA is as AA does, and AA does use sayings and slogans. It always has and I believe that it always will. Sincerely, Jim F. --- On Wed, 6/24/09, johnlawlee@yahoo.com wrote: From: johnlawlee@yahoo.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: "Powerless over people places things" To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, June 24, 2009, 4:56 AM The topic is "powerless over people, places and things", wnich cliche is absent from the basic literature of AA, NA and Al-Anon. The topic is not "people, places and things." According to the Unofficial Big Book Search Engine, the word "people" is found on 78 pages of the basic text. "People" isn't the topic either. You won't find the cliche "powerless over people places things" in the basic literature of AA. You won't find it in the basic literature of NA or Al-Anon either. You won't locate the recommendation "avoid people places and things" in the basic literature of those three fellowships, although that nugget is heard frequently in rehabs, AA meetings and NA meeetings. You'll hear the chanting of "keep coming back" at virtually every AA meeting, but that's not in the basic text of AA either. I don't believe you'll find it in the Bigger Book either [the one with the black cover and ribbon]. Christ never said, "Keep coming back." He said, "Heal the sick...Freely have you received, freely give." In AA we carry the message to those who still suffer. Pass it on. John Lee Pittsburgh --- On Tue, 6/23/09, Robert Stonebraker wrote: From: Robert Stonebraker Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: "People places things" To: AAHistoryLovers@ yahoogroups. com Date: Tuesday, June 23, 2009, 5:50 PM The inquiry comes from the previous message concerning the validity of page Dr. Paul's quote from page 417. The answer: The stories in the second section of the book are not considered as the clear cut directions. Please read page 29: "Further on clear cut directions are given showing how we recovered. These are followed by forty-two personal experiences. " The personal experiences are not the clear cut directions. Bob S. www.4dgroups. org ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= ======== From: AAHistoryLovers@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:AAHistoryLo vers@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of bridgetsbuddy Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 9:39 AM To: AAHistoryLovers@ yahoogroups. com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: "People places things" What about this one? "When I am disturbed, it is because I find some person, place, thing, or situation -- some fact of my life -- unacceptable to me, and I can find no serenity until I accept that person, place, thing, or situation as being exactly the way it is supposed to be at this moment." ("Acceptance was the Answer," BB, 4th Ed., p.417) No? --- In AAHistoryLovers@ yahoogroups. com , Jon Markle wrote: > > Where does the concept of powerlessness over "people, places and > things" come from? > > Hugs for the trudge. > > Jon (Raleigh) > 9/9/82 > > "The violets in the mountains have broken the rocks." (Tennessee > Williams) > > "Hope is the feeling we have that the feeling we have is not > permanent." (M.McLaughlin) > > "You know, I occasionally watch those preachers on the Christian TV > stations. I always think to myself: How can I believe your theology > when I can't believe your hair?" (Patricia Clarkson) > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] _________________________________________________________________ Get the best of MSN on your mobile http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/147991039/direct/01/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5833. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Pg 163 who is the AA member, the 2 psychiatrists, and the hospitals? From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/26/2009 12:50:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dr. "Howard" is thought to be an alias. He may have been Dr. Marcus Curry, head of Greystone in 1939. Regards --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Lee Carroll" wrote: > > The AA member was Hank Parhurst - he was living in Montclair NJ at the time. > > > > > Prominent psychiatrist was Dr Howard of Montclair, NJ > > > > Second psychiatrist was Dr Russell E. Blaisdell, Rockland State Hospital > near Orangeburg NY. > > > > My interpretation of ".the doctor agreed to a test among his patients." is > not that he had a test, per se, but rather, to test this program, which our > friend (Hank) had described. > > > > > > Lee Carroll, CPA > > (805) 938-1981 > > > > IRS Circular 230 Tax Advice Disclaimer: As required by U.S. Treasury > Regulations governing tax practice, you are hereby advised that, if any > advice concerning one or more U.S. Federal tax issues is contained in this > communication (including any attachments), such advice is not intended or > written to be used, and cannot be used, for the purpose of (i) avoiding > penalties under the Internal Revenue Code or (ii) promoting, marketing or > recommending to another party any transaction or matter addressed herein. > > > > _____ > > From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of rickcard47 > Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 8:21 AM > To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Pg 163 who is the AA member, the 2 psychiatrists, > and the hospitals? > > > > > > > > > I am asuming that the large community is NY, but was wondering who the AA > member was, and what the test was that "that the doctor agreed to a test > among his patients". Also it mentions 2 psychiatrists, any ideas? And what > was the hospital and clinic? > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5834. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Re: Pg 163 who is the AA member, the 2 psychiatrists, and the hospitals? From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/27/2009 10:33:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Marcus Curry would fit for "Chief Psychiatrist of the State of NJ" -- more or less -- but there's the possibility (given the "Dr. Howard") that it might be Dr. Howard W. S. Potter (1892-1984), of New York (Letchworth Village), a native-born Jerseyan (Elizabeth, I think) -- tho' I don't know where he was living in 1939. Perhaps someone could check the MS of Howard Potter's reminiscences in the Columbia Medical Library. > To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > From: jax760@yahoo.com > Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 16:50:40 +0000 > Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Pg 163 who is the AA member, the 2 psychiatrists, and the hospitals? > > Dr. "Howard" is thought to be an alias. He may have been Dr. Marcus Curry, head of Greystone in 1939. > > Regards > > --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Lee Carroll" wrote: > > > > The AA member was Hank Parhurst - he was living in Montclair NJ at the time. > > > > > > > > > > Prominent psychiatrist was Dr Howard of Montclair, NJ > > > > > > > > Second psychiatrist was Dr Russell E. Blaisdell, Rockland State Hospital > > near Orangeburg NY. > > > > > > > > My interpretation of ".the doctor agreed to a test among his patients." is > > not that he had a test, per se, but rather, to test this program, which our > > friend (Hank) had described. > > > > > > > > > > > > Lee Carroll, CPA > > > > (805) 938-1981 > > > > > > > > IRS Circular 230 Tax Advice Disclaimer: As required by U.S. Treasury > > Regulations governing tax practice, you are hereby advised that, if any > > advice concerning one or more U.S. Federal tax issues is contained in this > > communication (including any attachments), such advice is not intended or > > written to be used, and cannot be used, for the purpose of (i) avoiding > > penalties under the Internal Revenue Code or (ii) promoting, marketing or > > recommending to another party any transaction or matter addressed herein. > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of rickcard47 > > Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 8:21 AM > > To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Pg 163 who is the AA member, the 2 psychiatrists, > > and the hospitals? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am asuming that the large community is NY, but was wondering who the AA > > member was, and what the test was that "that the doctor agreed to a test > > among his patients". Also it mentions 2 psychiatrists, any ideas? And what > > was the hospital and clinic? > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail® has ever-growing storage! Don’t worry about storage limits. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Storage?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutoria l_St\ orage_062009 [12] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5835. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: RE: "Powerless over people places things" From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/27/2009 11:14:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "There but for the Grace of God [goes old John Bradford]" is the first use I know (1550?) of the phrase in English -- said, by a former paymaster of the King's forces at Calais who had embezzled funds (possibly for drinking), but been converted by Hugh Latimer and made amends and restitution, on seeing another embezzler of the King's funds being taken away to execution. There is no particular question of predestination, nor is the phrase peculiar to alcoholics -- in fact it was popularized long before the word "alcoholic" existed. It refers quite simply to the fact that we (whoever we may be) don't recover (from any sin or sickness) by our own unaided efforts -- and I'm not sure that should be contentious in A.A., or elsewhere. > To: aahistorylovers@yahoogroups.com > From: jennylaurie1@hotmail.com > Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 07:46:39 +0000 > Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: "Powerless over people places things" > > > Among the plethora of ideas discussed by our pioneers - for example, establishing "AA" hospitals - about the only one to survive was the decision to publish the Big Book. Early members were aware that the message could be diluted, distorted and misrepresented when passed on orally. The slogans which adorn the walls at so many AA meetings are not Conference-approved; though three of them appear at the end of chapter nine in the Big Book, viz: First Things First; Live and Let Live; Easy Does It. One slogan - There but for the grace of God - is contentious, suggesting as it does that some alcoholics are chosen for salvation and others condemned. Likewise, the Serenity Prayer is not Conference-approved, though undoubtedly an established part of our oral tradition. So, unless tested by the Fellowship's group conscience as expressed at Conference, expressions heard at meetings, like e.g. Keep it simple stupid, should be taken with a pinch of salt. Some are more helpful than others; some are contrary to our tradition, e.g. "It (addiction) is all the same illness." > > Laurie A. > > > To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > From: jdf10487@yahoo.com > Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 09:36:02 -0700 > Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: "Powerless over people places things" > > > > > > > > AA has a rich oral tradition which includes many sayings, slogans and common expressions. > > Some of these expressions can be found in the AA literature and others can't. Regardless of that fact, these saying and slogans are as much a part of authentic AA History as the coffee pot. AA is as AA does, and AA does use sayings and slogans. It always has and I believe that it always will. > > Sincerely, Jim F. > > --- On Wed, 6/24/09, johnlawlee@yahoo.com wrote: > > From: johnlawlee@yahoo.com > Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: "Powerless over people places things" > To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > Date: Wednesday, June 24, 2009, 4:56 AM > > The topic is "powerless over people, places and things", wnich cliche is absent from the basic literature of AA, NA and Al-Anon. The topic is not "people, places and things." According to the Unofficial Big Book Search Engine, the word "people" is found on 78 pages of the basic text. "People" isn't the topic either. You won't find the cliche "powerless over people places things" in the basic literature of AA. You won't find it in the basic literature of NA or Al-Anon either. You won't locate the recommendation "avoid people places and things" in the basic literature of those three fellowships, although that nugget is heard frequently in rehabs, AA meetings and NA meeetings. You'll hear the chanting of "keep coming back" at virtually every AA meeting, but that's not in the basic text of AA either. I don't believe you'll find it in the Bigger Book either [the one with the black cover and ribbon]. Christ never said, "Keep coming back." He > said, "Heal the sick...Freely have you received, freely give." In AA we carry the message to those who still suffer. > Pass it on. > John Lee > Pittsburgh > > --- On Tue, 6/23/09, Robert Stonebraker wrote: > > From: Robert Stonebraker > Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: "People places things" > To: AAHistoryLovers@ yahoogroups. com > Date: Tuesday, June 23, 2009, 5:50 PM > > The inquiry comes from the previous message concerning the validity of page > Dr. Paul's quote from page 417. > > The answer: > > The stories in the second section of the book are not considered as the > clear cut directions. Please read page 29: "Further on clear cut directions > are given showing how we recovered. These are followed by forty-two > personal experiences. " > > The personal experiences are not the clear cut directions. > > Bob S. > > www.4dgroups. org > > ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= ======== > > From: AAHistoryLovers@ yahoogroups. com > [mailto:AAHistoryLo vers@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of bridgetsbuddy > Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 9:39 AM > To: AAHistoryLovers@ yahoogroups. com > Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: "People places things" > > What about this one? "When I am disturbed, it is because I find some person, > place, thing, or situation -- some fact of my life -- unacceptable to me, > and I can find no serenity until I accept that person, place, thing, or > situation as being exactly the way it is supposed to be at this moment." > ("Acceptance was the Answer," BB, 4th Ed., p.417) No? > > --- In AAHistoryLovers@ yahoogroups. com > , Jon Markle > wrote: > > > > Where does the concept of powerlessness over "people, places and > > things" come from? > > > > Hugs for the trudge. > > > > Jon (Raleigh) > > 9/9/82 > > > > "The violets in the mountains have broken the rocks." (Tennessee > > Williams) > > > > "Hope is the feeling we have that the feeling we have is not > > permanent." (M.McLaughlin) > > > > "You know, I occasionally watch those preachers on the Christian TV > > stations. I always think to myself: How can I believe your theology > > when I can't believe your hair?" (Patricia Clarkson) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get the best of MSN on your mobile > http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/147991039/direct/01/ > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail® has ever-growing storage! Don’t worry about storage limits. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Storage?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutoria l_St\ orage_062009 [12] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5836. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Pg 163 -Name, Place & Date Reference From: Ron Sessions . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/27/2009 11:53:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello Bill, Thanks for the link to the "Big Book Name, Place, & Date References" â“ I recently wondered if Jim and Fred were based on real individuals â“ this reference gave some names I can track down. On another note â“ I noticed an error that might bear correction. I donât know who wrote the reference, so I am putting this into the ether. Listed under âWe Agnosticsâ (Page 56), the âapproached by an alcoholicâ is linked to Bill Wilson, but based on Fitzâs story (Our Southern Friend), the man who made this approach was another patient in Townâs Hospital. After this approach was made Fitz had the âwho are you to say there is no Godâ experience. The following day he met some of the folks that had gotten free (assumedly Bill was one of them). Nancy Oâs bio of Fitz states essentially the same thing. Iâm interested in finding out who the patient was, and what happened to him. I wonder at the wording applied to this individual, being described as âan alcoholic who had KNOWN a spiritual experienceâ not âan alcoholic who HAD a spiritual experienceâ â“ as if to infer the man that made the approach didnât benefit from the info he transmitted to Fitz.  This may simply be a matter of style and not substance. In any case I would like any information other members might have about this man. Thanks so much, Ron --- On Thu, 6/25/09, Bill Lash wrote: From: Bill Lash Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Pg 163 who is the AA member, the 2 psychiatrists, and the hospitals? To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, June 25, 2009, 6:04 AM For all the "Big Book Name, Place, & Date References" please go to: http://www.justlove audio.com/ resources/ Assorted/ Big_Book_ Name_and_ Date_References.pdf Just Love, Barefoot Bill [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5837. . . . . . . . . . . . Houston S. From: boydpickard . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/28/2009 12:48:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Houston S. found AA in Montgomerty, Alabama in June 1944. He helped a man named Harry, who also had a drug problem, get sober. Through this interaction Houston was convenced that 12 Tweleve Steps could be applied to drug addiction as well. So convinced that when his company transfered him to Frankfort, Kentucky, Houston contacted Dr.Vogel of the US Public Hospital in Lexington Kentucky ( specializing in drug addiction)and Dr. Vogel allowed Houston start an Addicts Anonymous Meeting using a modified version of the 12 steps of AA. Houston remained a loyal supportor attending meetings nearly week until 1963 when he turned his duties over to Sterling S. another AA member. Does anyone know this story and can anyone help me track down Houston's last name. Some people say Houston Sewell and some say Houston Smith. Any help would be appreciated. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5838. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: "There but for the grace of God" From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/28/2009 4:21:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII On Jun 27, 2009, at 11:14 AM, J. Lobdell wrote in Message 5835: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/5835 >"There but for the Grace of God [goes old John Bradford]" is the >first use I know (1550?) of the phrase in English -- said, by a >former paymaster of the King's forces at Calais who had embezzled >funds (possibly for drinking), but been converted by Hugh Latimer >and made amends and restitution, on seeing another embezzler of the >King's funds being taken away to execution. There is no particular >question of predestination, nor is the phrase peculiar to alcoholics >-- in fact it was popularized long before the word "alcoholic" >existed. It refers quite simply to the fact that we (whoever we may >be) don't recover (from any sin or sickness) by our own unaided >efforts -- and I'm not sure that should be contentious in A.A., or >elsewhere. Our slogan is not the same as the quote being "But for the Grace of God," and I'm not at all sure "grace" is capitalized. Quibbling, perhaps, but it gives the meaning a different slant. I belive the five slogans which start "live easy but think first" are available from the New York Office, which lends a certain amount of authority to them. They originally appeared as slogans in the Grapevine in the middle '50s according to Art Sheehan. As far as any of them being contentious, I think that is entirely dependent on the eye of the beholder. Tommy H in Baton Rouge - - - - From: Jon Markle (serenitylodge at mac.com) I do agree however, that the clear implication is that God's Grace is predetermined to be available to some people but not all. (Predestination is indeed a very hotly contentious religious dogma). If/when I use that platitude, I always make sure that the grace *I* understand is free and available to anyone and everyone. The only thing that makes the difference, is whether or not each of us chooses to make use of that empowering grace. Hugs for the trudge. Jon (Raleigh) 9/9/82 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5839. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Powerless over people, places, and things From: MARLO . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/28/2009 8:34:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The more I think about it, the more I think "I find some person, place, thing, or situation unacceptable to me" and "I must accept that person, place, thing, or situation" means I'm powerless over it. As somebody else said, the concept is the same, & those words are in the Book. Interestingly enough, if you go back & read that story (which is funnier than Reader's Digest, IMHO), you'll notice that a LOT of the most frequently repeated "cliches" come from that one story. "A new pair of glasses," my "magic magnifying mind," "acceptance was the answer" (heck! people recommend reading that whole paragraph/page!), "my serenity is inversely proportional to my expectations" - a BUNCH of them! So I still don't think it is impossible for the use of the phrase "powerless over people, places, & things" to have originated as a paraphrase, or mis-quotation, from this story. It may not have in actual fact come from that story, but it is certainly not beyond the realm of possibility. That's my story, & I'm stickin' to it. Marlo D. Del Valle, Texas IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5840. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Powerless over people places things From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/29/2009 10:55:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Thank you Jared It's refreshing in a history forum to see a posting with citation and source reference rather than assertion and editorial. The following citation is from the very first chapter drafted by Bill W in preparation for the publication of the Big Book. That chapter is "There Is a Solution" (pgs 24-25): "When this sort of thinking is fully established in an individual with alcoholic tendencies, he has probably placed himself beyond human aid, and unless locked up, may die or go permanently insane. These stark and ugly facts have been confirmed by legions of alcoholics throughout history. But for the grace of God, there would have been thousands more convincing demonstrations. So many want to stop but cannot. ==================== AA's popular slogan plaques were first published in 5 Grapevine issues from September-December1956 and February 1957. Four slogans are from the Big Book: "But for the Grace of God" is from the chapter "There Is A Solution" (on pg 25) as noted above. "Easy Does It," "First Things First" and "Live and Let Live" are from the chapter "The Family Afterward" (on pg 135). The slogan "Think, Think, Think" is a bit of a mystery. Some say it originated in Cleveland, Ohio in the mid-1940s, however, its actual source is unknown. The following is posted on the AA.org web site at http://aa.org/subpage.cfm?page=287 ". Q: What's the history of typical AA slogans like "First Things First" and "One Day at a Time"? A. We don't have a great deal of information about the origins of AA's slogans and acronyms, but we can provide some sharing and preliminary information. Many of these slogans, as with other practices in AA, were simply passed along verbally to other members, so it is impossible to know who started using them first. It is possible that some of the slogans may have originally stemmed from a part of the Oxford Group Movement language, but it could also be that they were original with Bill and Dr. Bob and the early members. Members have always inquired as to the origins of various slogans, and it has always been difficult to narrow down; in our research, we discovered a letter written by former GSO Archivist, Frank M., dated 1989, who responded to a similar question that was posed to him. This was Frank's response, "Your interest in the origins of 'One Day at a Time' is shared by many of us. Like hand-holding, however, it's difficult to pin-point the exact 'moment.'" That is the problem we find with most of our AA slogans, unfortunately! We do know, however, that many slogans commonly heard have been around since the early days of the Fellowship. In December of 1958 Ruth Hock (non-alcoholic), who was AA's first secretary, wrote a response to a similar question concerning different slogans. In her reply Ruth wrote: "Bill [W.] and I first worked together in January 1936 when he had been sober just a little over one year and at that time 'Easy Does It,' 'Live and Let Live,' and 'First Things First,' were part of the daily conversation. They were also used in the very first drafts of the book, but probably only Bill himself could tell you where he picked them up. "As far as I'm concerned all of the above were introduced into A.A. by Bill W. himself although not original with him. "Some of these could have been used in Oxford Group meetings but there is no way for sure." In addition to Ruth's response, page 220 of Bill W.'s biography, Pass It On, also addresses this topic: "Some 'A.A. saws' were also used as long ago as the late 1930s: 'First Things First,' 'Easy Does It,' 'Live and Let Live.' Because these appear in the first edition of the Big Book (at the end of the chapter on 'The Family Afterward'), it's probable that the use of the slogans originated with Bill and that he brought them with him from Vermont - old saws with new teeth. ." ==================== In regard to the Traditions, they are to the Legacy of Unity what the Steps are to the Legacy of Recovery and what the Concepts are to the Legacy of Service - namely, the core spiritual principles of the Three Legacies. The Traditions are a body of spiritual principles whose objective is unity not lock-step conformity. Likewise, by explicit statement in its own Charter (Article 12), the Conference does not function in a governance role. The Conference Charter has 12 Articles, the 12th of which is also called "The General Warranties of the Conference" or just "Warrantees" for short. The 6 Warrantees in Article 12 are a condensed version of the Traditions to ensure that the Conference always functions in the spirit of the Traditions. In 1962, the General Warranties of the Conference formed Concept 12 of the Twelve Concepts for World Service. The slogans are most definitely Conference- approved. The 1952 Conference approved a list (proposed by a special Trustees Committee on Literature) of the then existing literature items that were to be retained with Conference- approval. Among those items were the Big Book and the Long form of the Traditions (previously released as a pamphlet in 1947). The 5 slogan signs have been available as published AA literature from the Grapevine for decades. How someone wishes to view or interpret the word "addiction" or any other term is a matter of their individual conscience and it is neither right nor wrong based on any notion of Conference-approval - "Conference-approval" has never been intended to be used in that manner. Literature is Conference-approved, thought is not. Bill W was very explicit in "AA Comes of Age" in stating: "For example, in its original "long form," Tradition Four [sic - should be Tradition Three] declares: 'Any two or three gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an A.A. group, provided that as a group they have no other affiliation.' This means that these two or three alcoholics could try for sobriety in any way they liked. They could disagree with any or all of A.A.'s principles and still call themselves an A.A. group. But this ultra-liberty is not so risky as it looks. In the end the innovators would have to adopt A.A. principles - at least some of them in order to remain sober at all. If, on the other hand, they found something better than A.A., or if they were able to improve on our methods, then in all probability we would adopt what they discovered for general use everywhere. This sort of liberty also prevents A.A. from becoming a frozen set of dogmatic principles that could not be changed even when obviously wrong. ." Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: J. Lobdell Sent: Saturday, June 27, 2009 10:15 AM Subject: RE: "Powerless over people places things" "There but for the Grace of God [goes old John Bradford]" is the first use I know (1550?) of the phrase in English -- said, by a former paymaster of the King's forces at Calais who had embezzled funds (possibly for drinking), but been converted by Hugh Latimer and made amends and restitution, on seeing another embezzler of the King's funds being taken away to execution. There is no particular question of predestination, nor is the phrase peculiar to alcoholics -- in fact it was popularized long before the word "alcoholic" existed. It refers quite simply to the fact that we (whoever we may be) don't recover (from any sin or sickness) by our own unaided efforts -- and I'm not sure that should be contentious in A.A., or elsewhere. > From: jennylaurie1@hotmail.com > Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 07:46:39 +0000 > Subject: RE: "Powerless over people places things" > > > Among the plethora of ideas discussed by our pioneers - for example, establishing "AA" hospitals - about the only one to survive was the decision to publish the Big Book. Early members were aware that the message could be diluted, distorted and misrepresented when passed on orally. The slogans which adorn the walls at so many AA meetings are not Conference-approved; though three of them appear at the end of chapter nine in the Big Book, viz: First Things First; Live and Let Live; Easy Does It. One slogan - There but for the grace of God - is contentious, suggesting as it does that some alcoholics are chosen for salvation and others condemned. Likewise, the Serenity Prayer is not Conference-approved, though undoubtedly an established part of our oral tradition. So, unless tested by the Fellowship's group conscience as expressed at Conference, expressions heard at meetings, like e.g. Keep it simple stupid, should be taken with a pinch of salt. Some are more helpful than others; some are contrary to our tradition, e.g. "It (addiction) is all the same illness." > > Laurie A. > From: jdf10487@yahoo.com > Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 09:36:02 -0700 > Subject: RE: "Powerless over people places things" > AA has a rich oral tradition which includes many sayings, slogans and common expressions. > > Some of these expressions can be found in the AA literature and others can't. Regardless of that fact, these saying and slogans are as much a part of authentic AA History as the coffee pot. AA is as AA does, and AA does use sayings and slogans. It always has and I believe that it always will. > > Sincerely, Jim F. > From: johnlawlee@yahoo.com > Subject: RE: "Powerless over people places things" > Date: Wednesday, June 24, 2009, 4:56 AM > > The topic is "powerless over people, places and things", wnich cliche is absent from the basic literature of AA, NA and Al-Anon. The topic is not "people, places and things." According to the Unofficial Big Book Search Engine, the word "people" is found on 78 pages of the basic text. "People" isn't the topic either. You won't find the cliche "powerless over people places things" in the basic literature of AA. You won't find it in the basic literature of NA or Al-Anon either. You won't locate the recommendation "avoid people places and things" in the basic literature of those three fellowships, although that nugget is heard frequently in rehabs, AA meetings and NA meeetings. You'll hear the chanting of "keep coming back" at virtually every AA meeting, but that's not in the basic text of AA either. I don't believe you'll find it in the Bigger Book either [the one with the black cover and ribbon]. Christ never said, "Keep coming back." He > said, "Heal the sick...Freely have you received, freely give." In AA we carry the message to those who still suffer. > Pass it on. > John Lee > Pittsburgh > From: Robert Stonebraker > Subject: Re: "People places things" > Date: Tuesday, June 23, 2009, 5:50 PM > > The inquiry comes from the previous message concerning the validity of page > Dr. Paul's quote from page 417. > > The answer: > > The stories in the second section of the book are not considered as the > clear cut directions. Please read page 29: "Further on clear cut directions > are given showing how we recovered. These are followed by forty-two > personal experiences. " > > The personal experiences are not the clear cut directions. > > Bob S. > From bridgetsbuddy > Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 9:39 AM > Subject: Re: "People places things" > > What about this one? "When I am disturbed, it is because I find some person, > place, thing, or situation -- some fact of my life -- unacceptable to me, > and I can find no serenity until I accept that person, place, thing, or > situation as being exactly the way it is supposed to be at this moment." > ("Acceptance was the Answer," BB, 4th Ed., p.417) No? > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5841. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Houston S. From: chris fuccione . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/28/2009 1:34:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII So was he the first person to use the Twelve Steps for another program? from: "boydpickard" wrote: > > Houston S. found AA in Montgomerty, Alabama in June 1944. He helped a man named Harry, who also had a drug problem, get sober. Through this interaction Houston was convenced that 12 Tweleve Steps could be applied to drug addiction as well. > > So convinced that when his company transfered him to Frankfort, Kentucky, Houston contacted Dr.Vogel of the US Public Hospital in Lexington Kentucky ( specializing in drug addiction)and Dr. Vogel allowed Houston start an Addicts Anonymous Meeting using a modified version of the 12 steps of AA. > > Houston remained a loyal supportor attending meetings nearly week until 1963 when he turned his duties over to Sterling S. another AA member. > > Does anyone know this story and can anyone help me track down Houston's last name. Some people say Houston Sewell and some say Houston Smith. > Any help would be appreciated. > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5842. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: There but for the grace of God From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/29/2009 6:09:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From John B (jax760), J. Lobdell, and Baileygc23 - - - - From: "jax760" (jax760 at yahoo.com) "It does not seem necessary to defer to the feelings of our agnostic and atheist newcomers to the extent of completely hiding our light under a bushel." Bill W. to Russ R. 1959 LTR As he did so many times in many of his writings Bill quotes the Bible in expressing everyday ideas. Here of course it's the Sermon on The Mount, Matthew 5:14-16 Bill frequently disguised his religious (or spiritual if you prefer) thought so as to not scare away the newcomer but his views and his "biblically based" ideas i.e. "ancient principles" can be found throughout his published and personal writings. I think we can find the roots of all the slogans and substantiate them, or cite sources for most of them. From the AA History Book "Pass It On" "Bill now joined Bob and Anne in the Oxford Group practice of having morning guidance sessions together, with Anne reading from the Bible. "Reading… from her chair in the corner she would softly conclude `Faith without works is dead.' " As Dr. Bob described it they were convinced that the answer to our problem was the Good Book. To some of us older ones, the parts that we found absolutely essential were the Sermon on the Mount, the 13th Chapter of First Corinthians and the Book of James. The Book of James was so important, in fact, that some early members even suggested "The James Club" as a name for the fellowship." – p. 147 From the AA History Book "Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers" "We already had the basic ideas, though not in terse and tangible form. We got them…as a result of our study of the Good Book. We must have had them. Since then we have learned from experience that they are very important in maintaining sobriety. We were maintaining sobriety – therefore we must have had them." – p. 97 "Dr. Bob noted there were no 12 steps at that time and that `our stories didn't amount to anything to speak of,' later said they were convinced that that the answer to their problems was in the Good Book. `To some of us older ones the parts that we found absolutely essential were the Sermon on the Mount, the 13th Chapter of First Corinthians and the Book of James' he said. This was the beginning of A.A.'s "flying blind period." They had the Bible; they had the precepts of the Oxford Group. They also had their own instincts. They were working, or working out, the A.A. program – the Twelve Steps – without quite knowing how they were doing it." – p. 96 The Biblical Roots of the Slogans are as follows" Live and Let Live (The Golden Rule) - Matthew 7:12 "And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise." Easy Does it (One Day at a Time) Matthew 6:34 "Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof." But for the Grace of God - 1 Corinthians 15:10 "But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me." Think Think Think - Romans12:3 "For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith." First Things First Matthew 6:33 "But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." Some of these slogans are first discussed (from a history perspective) in one of the Earliest Akron Pamphlets, The Akron Manual circa 1940-41 which tells the newcomer: "There is the Bible that you haven't opened for years. Get acquainted with it. Read it with an open mind. You will find things that will amaze you. You will be convinced that certain passages were written with you in mind. Read the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew V, VI, and VII). Read St. Paul's inspired essay on love (I Corinthians XIII). Read the Book of James. Read the Twenty-third and Ninety-first Psalms. These readings are brief but so important." From this pamphlet: Shortly after you leave the hospital you will be on your own. The Bible tells us to put "first things first." Alcohol is obviously the first thing in your life. So concentrate on conquering it." "Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof. -- Matthew VI, 34. These words are taken from the Sermon on the Mount. Simply, they mean live in today only. Forget yesterday. Do not anticipate tomorrow. You can only live one day at a time, and if you do a good job of that, you will have little trouble. One of the easiest, most practical ways of keeping sober ever devised is the day by day plan, the 24-hour plan. You know that it is possible to stay sober for 24 hours. You have done it many times. All right. Stay sober for one day at a time. When you get up in the morning make up your mind that you will not take a drink for the entire day. Ask the Greater Power for a little help in this. If anyone asks you to have a drink, take a rain check. Say you will have it tomorrow. Then when you go to bed at night, finding yourself sober, say a little word of thanks to the Greater Power for having helped you. Repeat the performance the next day. And the next. Before you realize it you will have been sober a week, a month, a year. And yet you will have only been sober a day at a time. "There is an old saying, "Easy does it." It is a motto that any alcoholic could well ponder. A child learns to add and subtract in the lower grades. He is not expected to do problems in algebra until he is in high school. Sobriety is a thing that must be learned step by step. If anything puzzles you, ask your new friends about it, or forget it for the time being. The time is not so far away when you will have a good understanding of the entire program. Meantime, EASY DOES IT!" From another of the earliest Akron Pamphlets: "The road to rehabilitation is not as long as the road to alcoholism, but neither is it as tough. If you have successfully made the Sixth and Seventh Steps you will fully understand this. Always remember, easy does it. We must take life and its problems a single thing at a time" The Akron Guide to the 12 Steps a single thing at a time……… as in one day at a time…….. as in easy does it?) As Jared mentions, one of the earliest uses of "But for the grace of God"….. is John Bradford who I would suggest took it from Paul's letter to the Corinthians slightly out of context but expressing the identical idea as Saint Paul. As for Think Think Think and how it is used in Romans 12:3………..you be the judge. Knowing the Biblical roots of our program as noted above,the fledgling fellowship (the First Forty and One Hundred)modeling itself after another fledling fellowship (The Oxford Group) modeling itself after another fledgling fellowship (The First Century followers of the teachings of the Man from Galillee) why should it surprise us that our slogans all came from the bible? God Bless John B - - - - From: "J. Lobdell" (jlobdell54 at hotmail.com) I'm not sure what different slant is given by the word "there" before "the grace [or Grace] of God" tho' there might well be a different slant according to whether "Grace" is capitalized. But my point was that the phrase long antedates AA (so, for example, does "One Day At A Time" -- which was the title of a column by William Lyon Phelps in the newspapers in the 1920s) and I figured AA history doesn't start with AA (Washingtonians? Oxford Group?), so perhaps AA historylovers might be interested in how this slogan started. As I say, I'm not sure I see a significant difference between "but for the Grace of God" and "[There] but for the Grace of God" -- but they may well have different connotations to different people. I certainly agree that contentiousness is in the eye of the beholder: it just happens that -- just in my experience -- the view that alcoholics do not get sober on their own isn't particularly contentious -- which was my other point here. - - - - From: Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com) Although Bill W most likely went along with the slogans, he did point out that the new comer is sensitive to aggression in the name of spirituality. God making me better off than the next person is aggression. The beholder may think that we are making fun of him. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5843. . . . . . . . . . . . Serenity Prayer and conference approval From: The Wilsons . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/2/2009 1:56:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Just out of curiousity, since the short form of the Serenity Prayer is given at the end of the chapter on Step Three in the book "Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions," and that book is conference approved, wouldn't that automatically make this version of the short form of the Serenity Prayer a conference approved text? Bob Wilson IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5844. . . . . . . . . . . . Another of the slogans: Think think think From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/1/2009 1:40:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII We have been discussing the early AA slogans, especially "But for the Grace of God." But another of the early slogans was also mentioned: This one -- "Think think think" -- was perhaps not biblical. It seems to have been an IBM slogan put up on a Cleveland AA bulletin board or the equivalent ca 1944 much to the chagrin of Clarence S., who observed (approximately) "Alcoholics don't think -- they emote." (Mitch K. can probably provide chapter and verse on this.) - - - - > From: John B (jax760 at yahoo.com) > Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 > Subject: Re: There but for the grace of God > The Biblical Roots of the Slogans are as follows" > Think Think Think - Romans12:3 > "For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5845. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: There but for the grace of God From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/3/2009 12:03:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII If you have a copy of the March 1, 1941 Saturday Evening Post magazine with Jack Alexander's article, one of the photos is of a staged meeting (its caption ends with "... A typical clubhouse discussion group"). Prominently displayed on the wall above a fireplace mantle behind the attendees facing forward (i.e. Ruth Hock, Bill W, Dick S and Lois W) is a rather large sign (possibly needlepoint embroidery) that reads "But for the Grace of God." Cheers Arthur IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5846. . . . . . . . . . . . First AA group in each US state and Canadian province From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/8/2009 6:22:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Someone has suggested that we work out a list giving the town or city in which the first AA group was formed in each of the 50 US states and 10 Canadian provinces, and also (where possible) the month, day, and year the group was started. This will be used as part of the celebration of AA's 75th anniversary next year. I'll start it off by giving the information on my home state of Indiana, plus the date of Dr. Bob's last drink in Akron, Ohio. It would be appreciated if someone from each state and province could write in and give us the relevant information for where they live. Thanks! Glenn C., South Bend, Indiana THE 50 U.S. STATES: Alabama Alaska Arizona Arkansas California Colorado Connecticut Delaware Florida Georgia Hawaii Idaho Illinois Indiana: Evansville, 23 April 1940 Iowa Kansas Kentucky Louisiana Maine Maryland Massachusetts Michigan Minnesota Mississippi Missouri Montana Nebraska Nevada New Hampshire New Jersey New Mexico New York North Carolina North Dakota Ohio: Akron, 17 June 1935 Oklahoma Oregon Pennsylvania Rhode Island South Carolina South Dakota Tennessee Texas Utah Vermont Virginia Washington West Virginia Wisconsin Wyoming (also Washington DC) THE 10 CANADIAN PROVINCES: Alberta British Columbia Manitoba New Brunswick Newfoundland and Labrador Nova Scotia Ontario Prince Edward Island Quebec Saskatchewan IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5847. . . . . . . . . . . . T. Willard Hunter died on July 1, 2009 From: diazeztone . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/8/2009 8:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Rev. T. Willard Hunter passed away July 1 2009 in Claremont, California. He was co-author of "Uncommon Friends" by Jim Newton. He and Newton were Oxford Group members. Willard had been in the company of Frank Buchman, Sam Shoemaker, and many other well-known early Oxford Group people. For more about him, see: http://aabibliography.com/t_willard_hunter.html LD Pierce editor www.aabibliography.com IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5848. . . . . . . . . . . . History of the Chicago Group From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/10/2009 11:33:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From (dbennitt at sbcglobal.net) History of the Chicago Group http://hindsfoot.org/chicago1.pdf From Don B., Past Delegate from Chicago. History of Chicago area A.A. from the first group meeting on September 20, 1939 in Earl Treat's apartment in Evanston, down to the early 1970's. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5849. . . . . . . . . . . . AA''s First Meeting on the West Coast: San Francisco From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/10/2009 11:12:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From (BruceKen at aol.com) AA's First Meeting on the West Coast November 21, 1939 in San Francisco Full story at http://hindsfoot.org/wcoast1.pdf (Adapted from C.N.C.A History, prepared by the CNCA Archives Committee, September 1984) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5850. . . . . . . . . . . . Who is going to the National Archives Workshop? From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/8/2009 3:07:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I would like to have a compilation of all the AAHL members who will be attending the National Archives Workshop in September, before we get there if possible. Perhaps we could get together after we arrive and urge them to have more AA history sessions during the annual Workshops. If you're going to be there, please email me at: (Shakey1aa at aol.com) Shakey Mike Gwirtz Philadelphia, Pennsylvania - - - - THE WORKSHOP ANNOUNCEMENT Original message from: Charles Knapp (cdknapp at pacbell.net) The 13th National Archives Workshop will be Sept 24 thru 27th, 2009 in Woodland Hills, California [a western suburb of LOS ANGELES] See their flyer at: http://www.aanationalarchivesworkshop.com/ ______________________________ From: "Lee Carroll" (FriendLeeCPA at msn.com) September 24th - 27th 2009 Warner Center Marriott Hotel 21850 Oxnard Blvd Woodland Hills, California 91367 phone: 818 887 4800 Room rate = $110/night plus tax (mention NAAAW), cutoff date Sept 7th Special Guest: National Archives Workshop Archivist Gail L. Preservation/Conservation Presenters: David C. (Washington), Perry D. (Arkansas), Terry L. (Arkansas) using a hands on format Chair - George R 818 378-4186 NAAAW09@aol.com Co-chair - Mike S 805 338 5140 aaarchivesmike@sbcglobal.net IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5851. . . . . . . . . . . . First AA group in Texas: Houston From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/8/2009 8:00:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII AA Started in Texas in February 1940 In late January and early February 1940, the Houston Press ran a series of six articles about AA written anonymously by Larry J (Jewell). He was rescued from Cleveland's skid row by the AA members there and had set out by train from Cleveland to live and work in Houston. Larry had never attended an AA meeting. While reading the Big Book on the train he had a spiritual awakening. Soon after the articles were published Larry was joined by Roy Y (Yeargan) and Ed H (Hudson) and AA started in Texas. The first Texas AA meeting was on March 15, 1940 at the Houston YMCA. The news articles also attracted the first Texas woman AA member, Benita C, who later married Larry J. The Houston Press Editor, Allen C Bartlett, hired Larry as an editorial writer. In April 1940, the Alcoholic Foundation reprinted Larry J's Houston Press articles as AA's first pamphlet. Sadly, though, Larry J later returned to drinking and it lead to his death in 1944. ====================================================================== Info on the date of Dr Bob's last drink (based on some old, old notes) ====================================================================== The date of June 17, 1935 looks pretty compelling as Dr Bob's sober date. The AMA Archives in Chicago, IL has confirmed that the 1935 Atlantic City, NJ Convention that Dr Bob attended was held from Monday to Friday June 10-14. Images of the AMA convention program and session minutes are circulating on the web showing June 10-14, 1935 as the dates of the convention. There are also good clues in AA literature for a deduction. In "AA Comes of Age" (pgs 70-71) Bill W writes "So he [Dr Bob] went to the Atlantic City Medical Convention and nothing was heard of him for several days." In "Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers" (pgs 72-75) it cites (with editing for brevity): "Dr Bob ... began drinking ... as he boarded the train to Atlantic City. On his arrival he bought several quarts on his way to the hotel. That was Sunday night. He stayed sober on Monday until after dinner ... On Tuesday, Bob started drinking in the morning and ... [checked out of the hotel] ... The next thing he knew ... he was ... in the ... home of his office nurse ... The blackout was certainly more than 24 hours long ... Bill and Anne had waited for five days from the time Bob left before they heard from the nurse ... She had picked him up that morning at the Akron railroad station ... As Bill and Sue [Smith] remembered, there was a 3-day sobering up period ... Upon Dr Bob's return, they had discovered that he was due to perform surgery 3 days later ... At 4 o'clock on the morning of the operation [Bob] . said 'I am going through with this ...' On the way to City Hospital ... Bill ... gave him a beer ..." In the video "Bill's Own Story" Bill W says he gave Dr Bob a beer and "goofball" [a barbiturate] the morning of the surgery. The same information is repeated in "Pass It On" pgs 147-149. See also "Not God" pgs 32-33. Estimate of timeline based on the above: June 09 Sunday: started drinking on the train to Atlantic City - in New Jersey he bought several quarts and checked into Atlantic City hotel June 10 Monday: stayed sober until after dinner June 11 Tuesday: started drinking in the morning - later checked out of the hotel. June 12 Wednesday: was in a blackout (likely greater than 24 hours) June 13 Thursday: blackout continues (may have arrived at Akron train station) June 14 Friday: picked up by nurse in the morning at the train station. Then picked up by Bill W at nurse's house (5 days after leaving). Day 1 of 3-day dry out period with Bill W. June 15 Saturday: day 2 of 3-day dry out period with Bill W. June 16 Sunday: day 3 of 3-day dry out period with Bill W. June 17 Monday: day of the surgery - Bill W gives Dr Bob a beer and a goofball (3 days after Dr Bob's return) Cheers Arthur IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5852. . . . . . . . . . . . First AA group in Pennsylvania: Philadelphia From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/9/2009 9:58:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Pennsylvania -- Philadelphia Feb 28 1940. The founders included Jim B., Charlie B., Bayard B., Fitz M., George S., McCready H. [at whose place it was held, 2209 Delancey St], and Ed P. Bayard B. was also the founder of AA on Martha's Vineyard -- he's the only one I ever met, shortly before his death in, I think, 1961. Jim B. and Fitz have stories in the Big Book. - - - - From: Cindy Miller (cm53 at earthlink.net) Pennsylvania: Philadelphia, 28 February 1940 - - - - From: Shakey1aa@aol.com Greetings from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, where the 1st organizational meeting was 2/28/1940 and the 1st group was the Philadelphia Mother Group formed by Jimmy Burwell on March 6, 1940. In "Memoirs of Jimmy" he states that "between Feb and June 1940 Fitz," meaning J. H. Fitzhugh Mayo "and myself started groups in Philadelphia, Washington and Baltimore." Shakey Mike Gwirtz Philadelphia, Pennsylvania (see you at the National Archives Workshop in California later this summer) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5853. . . . . . . . . . . . First AA group: Minn., N.J., Utah, S.C., Mich., Wisc., Akron From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/10/2009 12:55:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Minnesota, New Jersey, Utah, South Carolina, Michigan, Wisconsin, Akron group founding date celebrated as July 4, 1935 - - - - First AA group in Minnesota From Jean F. (jeanfid at gmail.com) Patrick Cronin's dry date was November 11, 1940; he was visited by Chan Forman (a former Minnesotan) and Bill Long from Chicago AA. The Armistice Day blizzard kept them here in Minneapolis long enough to help Cronin stay sober and hear the message. In April of 1941 Pat got two rooms (which quickly spread to five rooms) and a telephone at 200 East Franklin so as to organize a group. Bill Wilson made his first visit here to Minneapolis on October 26, 1941. Eventually the club was moved to the Washburn House at 2218 1st Ave So, now lovingly known as the Cronin house. I'm sure there are others who will chime in here~ Thanks! Jean F in Minnesota - - - - From: Lynn Sawyer (sawyer7952 at yahoo.com) What a cool idea for A.A.'s 75th!! - - - - From: (jax760 at yahoo.com) South Orange, New Jersey May 14, 1939 (AA Group #4) I would respectfully point out that AA Literature lists Akron Group #1 as July 4, 1935. The discharge date of Bill Dotson from Akron City Hospital. Akron Intrergroup has confirmed to me that 7/4 is the day they celebrate their anniversary. - - - - From: "Kimball ROWE" (roweke at msn.com) Utah - Dec 19, 1944 Salt Lake Group #1 formed, Owen L (the man that carried the message to Utah) was elected group secretary. - - - - From: (aadavidi at yahoo.com) South Carolina: Spartanburg, September 15, 1944 per SC archives website - http://www.area62.org/committees/archives/schist.htm [From the moderator: but that document indicates that the Spartanburg group stopped meeting after a while and had to be restarted, so Columbia, South Carolina, in late November 1944, may hold the title of oldest continuing group in that state. Both places and dates have therefore been inserted in the list.] - - - - From: "Cherie' H." (odaat5 at gmail.com) Jan 4, 1940 - 1st AA group formed in Detroit, Michigan. Cherie' H Warren, MI - - - - From: (cpknapp at yahoo.com) California: San Francisco, November 21, 1939 Wisconsin: Milwaukee May 1, 1941 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5854. . . . . . . . . . . . First AA groups: places where we need more accurate dates From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/10/2009 1:33:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII See Message 3679 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/3679 From the list which Ruth Hock gave on November 14, 1940 of the AA groups which were in existence by then, we know that these seven cities had AA established by that date: Arkansas: Little Rock Connecticut: Greenwich Maryland: Baltimore New York: New York City Vermont: Wallingford Virginia: Richmond Washington D.C. Can someone give us more precise dates for the forming of the first AA group in each of those places? Also, Ruth Hock gave Waunakee (near Madison) as the location of the first Wisconsin AA group, not Milwaukee (where the group was not begun until 1 May 1941). Can anybody clarify that one? Which AA group was first? And if it was Waunakee, can anyone give us a more precise date? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5856. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Another of the slogans: Think think think From: John Barton . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/9/2009 6:03:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII THINK, THINK, THINK This slogan is not found in the BB but was adopted by AA members from a sign that came with early IBM calculating machines. The sign said: THINK of what you are about to do THINK of what you are doing THINK of what you have done - - - - J. Lobdell wrote: We have been discussing the early AA slogans, especially "But for the Grace of God." But another of the early slogans was also mentioned: This one -- "Think think think" -- was perhaps not biblical. It seems to have been an IBM slogan put up on a Cleveland AA bulletin board or the equivalent ca 1944 much to the chagrin of Clarence S., who observed (approximately) "Alcoholics don't think -- they emote." (Mitch K. can probably provide chapter and verse on this.) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5857. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: First AA group - Toronto in Ontario From: Bernadette MacLeod . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/10/2009 4:01:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The first AA meeting in Ontario, Canada was held at the Little Denmark Restaurant on January 13th, 1943. Present were Reverends George Little and Percy Price, accompanied by six alcoholics. From "50 Years The History of AA in Ontario" first printing June 1993. YIS, bernadette m. king city group ontario - - - - From G.C. the moderator, see: http://www.aatoronto.org/webapp/app/webroot/index.php/pages/committees/archi ves "Alcoholics Anonymous quietly arrived in Canada, Toronto, Ontario, to be exact, on January 13th, 1943. The first meeting was held without fanfare at the Little Denmark Restaurant, located on the west side of Bay Street between Gerrard and College Streets. Present were Reverends George Little and Percy Price (see below), accompanied by six alcoholics. Enough interest was shown in the initial meeting that a second meeting was scheduled and held one week later. And so, Alcoholics Anonymous in Ontario was born." Harry Emerson Fosdick's very positive review of the newly published Big Book "stirred an interest in Dr. George A. Little, D.D., then a fifty-six year old Minister of the United Church of Toronto. Dr. Little had been a caring man who had unsuccessfully attempted to help alcoholics gain sobriety. Fosdick's review led him first to make copies of the book, then to order a personal copy of the Big Book for himself. Having read the book, he began in earnest mimeographing portions of it which he distributed to anyone he felt could further the cause or more importantly, to those he felt might be helped themselves. With his good intentions and tireless effort, people started to want more, and as a result, he ordered five copies of the Big Book in June, 1941. As an enthusiastic supporter of A.A., Dr. Little continued to be the alcoholics' friend - so much so that he enrolled at the Yale University School of Alcoholic Studies from which he graduated in 1941." FOR A COPY OF GEORGE LITTLE'S ARTICLE ON GOD IN A.A., which is well worth reading, see: See http://www.barefootsworld.net/aagodconcept.html THE GOD CONCEPT IN ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS From Religion in Life, Vol. 18(1): 25-33, 1948 By Rev. George A. Little, D.D. Little's article is a really excellent summary of what most early A.A.'s believed about God. It is completely in line with what the Big Book says, and may be helpful to modern folks in reading and understanding the Big Book. The Rev. Little was influenced by and strongly supportive of the position held by Harry Emerson Fosdick, who taught at Union Theological Seminary in New York City along with Reinhold Niebuhr. Fosdick was famous all across the country because of a sermon he wrote entitled "Shall the Fundamentalists Win?" This is also worth reading, to understand the position held by most early A.A. people. This was also the underlying position held by the people who edited The Upper Room (the chief A.A. meditational book from 1935 to 1948). Copies of Fosdick's "Shall the Fundamentalists Win?" may be found in a number of places online, including: http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/5070/ http://baptiststudiesonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/shall-the-fundame ntal\ ists-win.pdf [13] http://books.google.com/books?id=2bRx12uApGIC&pg=PA243&lpg=PA243&dq=%22Harry +Eme\ rson+Fosdick%22+%22Shall+the+Fundamentalists+Win%3F%22&source=bl&ots=YKN_8jj 4C-&\ sig=-hUtvAY_HRYUrDFvErL1hzYLtlI&hl=en&ei=jORYSuaMCpDwlAeTmKTjBA&sa=X&oi=book _res\ ult&ct=result&resnum=8 [14] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5858. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: First AA group Maine, Maryland, WV, Iowa, Minn., Fla. From: Lee Nickerson . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/10/2009 8:14:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII First AA groups in Maine, Maryland, West Virgina, Iowa, Minnesota, and Florida The first continuous meeting in Maine was in 1946. It met in Bangor over a garage. There is very little information on it but on January 11th, 1947; a group registered with New York as the Bangor Group. The oldtimers who I have talked to claimed that it was a new group, not an offspring of the garage group. Anyway, the oldest registered Group in Maine is The Portland Group, which registered with New York on January 7th, 1947 - four days before the Bangor Group. Lee N. - - - - From: Rick Benchoff (rxichard2nd at yahoo.com) Baltimore, Maryland: what later came to be called the 857 Group first met on June 16, 1940. Additional info: Jimmy Burwell was in attendance at this meeting in addition to four Baltimore area men. Rick B. Hagerstown, Maryland Member of the Hagerstown Group (founded in September 1946) - - - - From: Richard H (area73archives at yahoo.com) Here you go from Area 73, West Virginia. First AA Group registered with New York was in Charleston, WV on March 1, 1942. Best regards, Richard Humway Area 73 Archivist - - - - From: "tomper87" (tomper99 at yahoo.com) This is the earliest I can find in Iowa. Iowa Des Moines Oct 1943 Great idea to see how AA spread across the country and Canada. Tom P. - - - - First AA group in Minnesota From Jean F. (jeanfid at gmail.com) Patrick Cronin's dry date was November 11, 1940; he was visited by Chan Forman (a former Minnesotan) and Bill Long from Chicago AA. The Armistice Day blizzard kept them here in Minneapolis long enough to help Cronin stay sober and hear the message. In April of 1941 Pat got two rooms (which quickly spread to five rooms) and a telephone at 200 East Franklin so as to organize a group. Bill Wilson made his first visit here to Minneapolis on October 26, 1941. Eventually the club was moved to the Washburn House at 2218 1st Ave So, now lovingly known as the Cronin house. I'm sure there are others who will chime in here. - - - - From: Lynn Sawyer (sawyer7952 at yahoo.com) Dear fellow HistoryLovers, Yes, I CERTAINLY DO remember '2218', as it was also lovingly called!! Went to many a mtg. there, and had a few meals there, too. (They sold sm. meals from the kitchen, which was next to a large mtg. room on the 1st floor. Thanks for letting me share! Lynn S. [Now] Sacramento, CA alcoholic - - - - From: Archives Historie (firsthings1st at yahoo.com) Florida history: December 1940, Commander Junius Cotten met at the Jacksonville Naval Air Station with Thomas Sharpe. 1st meeting in Florida! Registered with AA on June 30, 1941. In Jacksonville. From the Area 14 Archives in North Florida IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5860. . . . . . . . . . . . 24 Magazine From: samuelmfrost . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/11/2009 12:43:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII While researching, I keep coming across references to "24 Magazine." Can anyone help guide me to any links or sites for this? What was this publication? Is it still in circulation? Sam F. - - - - From G.C. the moderator: Ernest Kurtz, Not-God, Appendix A, p. 234, speaks of <<... the "Survivors Program" promoted by "The Church of the Way" through its treatment program, East Ridge, and its literature, 24 Magazine and the book, The Answer to Addiction.>> THE BOOK: "The Answer To Addiction: Why addiction is so great a problem today and why the only answer is a spiritual one," by John Burns and three other recovered alcoholics [pseudonym for Tom Powers], 1st edit. (New York: Harper & Brothers, 1975. EAST RIDGE: http://www.alladdictsanonymous.org/ talks about East Ridge. 24 NEWSLETTER = 24 MAGAZINE The 24 Newsletter seems to be the form the magazine is now taking, see http://www.alladdictsanonymous.org/products.htm To read current issues of the newsletter/magazine, go to http://www.24-communications.com/ FOR MORE INFORMATION SEE: AAHL Message 5082 From Matt D. (mdingle76 at yahoo.com) http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/5082 Just want the group to be aware of an AA history resource — 24 Newsletter. 24 Newsletter is a current version of the 24 Magazine. 24 Magazine was probably best known for the article, "Gresham's Law and Alcoholics Anonymous." The author of this article is Tom P. Jr. Tom P. Jr. is the publisher of 24 Newsletter and contributes an article about AA each month. To view June's 24 Newsletter: http://www.24-communications.com/062008/062008.pdf For an example of little bits of AA history -- in June's newsletter Tom Jr. gives the name of the hymn Marty Mann used to describe her spiritual experience to Dr. Tiebout which was, "Leaning on the Everlasting Arms." Next month's main article is about Dr. Tom M. (AA 1939) -- in which Bill W. called, "One of the greatest stories to come out of AA" -- and is an actual transcript of Bill telling about Dr. Tom M. Dr. Tom got the AA Big Book in 1939 while a patient at Lexington Hospital for drug addicts. Tom M. wrote to AA, got sober, started one of the first groups to communicate with headquarters by mail, and more. To sign up for a free version of this newsletter email: alladdictsanonymous@gmail.com (alladdictsanonymous at gmail.com) Please specify if you would like this resource mailed to your home (and in such case give us your mailing address) or if just the online version. Either way this resource is free! Matt D. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5861. . . . . . . . . . . . First AA groups WORLD: U.K., Australia From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/11/2009 2:38:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII England: London 1948 (1st UK group), followed by Manchester in December 1948 Scotland: Glasgow and Edinburgh 1949 Wales: Cardiff 1951 Laurie A. - - - - From: "John R Reid" (jre33756 at bigpond.net.au) Australia :- First Country Outside of Northern America (USA and Canada) !!! First Group 1945, first Big Book received in Australia 1942. Ron C. can give accurate dates for Australia and its States. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5862. . . . . . . . . . . . First AA groups: Alberta, Nova Scotia From: Jim Lalonde . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/11/2009 5:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The first meeting of AA in Edmonton Alberta Canada was held in Edmonton in room 326 of the Hotel MacDonald, a historic landmark that is still fully operating as a hotel. There were 5 members present. Minutes of that first meeting are on Hotel MacDonald letterhead. Jim L. aka Nugget - - - - From the moderator: Jim, do you have a date for Edmonton? - - - - From: "Norm The Tinman" (normtinman@yahoo.com) First meeting in Nova Scotia was in a town called New Glasgow, on Jan 2,1946 -- started by a guy by the name of Fred P. who got sober in New Orleans and when home for Christmas to visit his folks, started a group that was and still is called the HOW Group -- Honesty, Openmindness, Willingness -- there was an article in the local newspaper on Jan 3, 1946 wishing this meeting well. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5863. . . . . . . . . . . . Timeline of the First 25 A.A. Groups From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/12/2009 1:59:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: "John Barton" (jax760 at yahoo.com) TIMELINE OF THE FIRST 25 A.A. GROUPS By John B. Big Book Study Group of South Orange, NJ 1. Ohio: Akron (July 4, 1935) 2. New York City (Fall of 1935) 3. Ohio: Cleveland - Abby G. Group (May 11, 1939) 4. New Jersey: The New Jersey Group (May 14, 1939) 5. Connecticut: Greenwich Blythewood Sanitarium (June 16, 1939) 6. Illinois: Chicago (September 13, 1939) 7. Ohio: Cleveland Borton Group (November 16, 1939) 8. Ohio: Cleveland Orchard Grove (November 20, 1939) 9. Washington, D.C. (December 1939) 10. California: San Francisco (December 1939) 11. California: Los Angeles (December 19, 1939) 12. New York: Orangeberg - Rockland State Hospital (December 1939) 13. Michigan: Detroit (December 1939) 14. Pennsylvania: Philadelphia (February 13, 1940) 15. Texas: Houston (March 15, 1940) 16. Arkansas: Little Rock (April 19, 1940) 17. Indiana: Evansville (April 23, 1940) 18. Ohio: Cleveland West 50th Street Group (May 8, 1940) 19. New Jersey: Camden (May 14, 1940) 20. Virginia: Richmond (June 6, 1940) 21. Maryland: Baltimore (June 16, 1940) 22. Ohio: Dayton (July 8, 1940) 23. Michigan: Coldwater (Summer 1940) 24. Ohio: Cleveland Berea (August 27, 1940) 25. Ohio: Cleveland Westlake (September 20, 1940) History Documents: January 1939 AABB The Original Manuscript April 10, 1939 AABB 1st Edition June 1953, 12 & 12 - AAWS 1955 AABB 2nd Edition 1957 AACOA AAWS 1980 DBGO AAWS 1984 PIO AAWS 1999 HIW Mitchell K. GSO Archives Notes related to the formation of the groups. A.A. Group # 1 Akron, Ohio "The spark that was to flare into the first A.A. group was struck at Akron, Ohio in June 1935, during a talk between a New York stockbroker and an Akron physician." (AABB 2nd Edition, p.xv) Hence the two men set to work almost frantically upon alcoholics arriving in the ward of the Akron City Hospital. Their very first case, a desperate one, recovered immediately and became A.A. number three." (AABB 2nd Edition, p.xvii) This refers to Bill's and Dr. Bob's first visit to A.A. Number Three. See the Pioneer Section. This resulted in A.A.'s first group, at Akron, Ohio, in 1935. (AABB 2nd Edition p.156) "Before our visit was over, Bill suddenly turned to his wife and said, "Go fetch my clothes, dear. We're going to get up and get out of here." Bill D. walked out of that hospital a free man never to drink again. A.A.'s Number One Group dates from that very day." - Bill W. (AAB 2nd Edition p.189) "He came out of the hospital on the Fourth of July, 1935." (DBGO p.85) Author’s Comments: If you read the Original Manuscript of the Book Alcoholics Anonymous, it becomes abundantly clear in Chapter 11, "A Vision for You" that the "Fellowship" of Alcoholics Anonymous was alive and growing in January of 1939. "Then, in this eastern city there are informal meetings such as we have described to you, where you may see thirty or forty, there are the same fast friendships, there is the same helpfulness to one another as you find among our western friends. There is a good bit of travel between East and West and we foresee a great increase in this helpful interchange. Some day we hope that every alcoholic who journeys will find a Fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous at his destination. To some extent this is already true." (BBOM p.130) The first 100, obviously considered themselves part of the A.A. fellowship whether or not they were specifically calling their "informal meetings" A.A., OG, Drunk Squadrons, etc. We think any debates whether the eastern and western cities mentioned are or are not the first "A.A." groups are pointless. Bill Wilson and Bob Smith obviously considered their respective groups to be #’s 1 & 2 and that should set the standard by which we apply our analysis. The anniversary date for Akron Group # 1 seems questionable. Bill however, tagged it as the day that Bill Dotson was discharged from the hospital. DBGO says this was July 4, 1935. Akron Intergroup advises that they go by the July 4th date. A.A. Group # 2 Brooklyn, New York A second small group promptly took shape at New York ... (AABB 2nd Edition, p.xvii) In the fall of 1935, Bill and Lois began to hold weekly meetings in their home on Clinton Street. (PIO p.162) "…At this juncture, the meeting -- the first meeting of the Manhattan Group, which really took place in Brooklyn -- stopped, and it stopped for a very good reason. That was that the landlord set Lois and me out into the street, and we didn't even have money to move our stuff into storage. Even that and the moving van -- that was done on the cuff. Well, it was then the spring of 1939. Temporarily, the Manhattan Group moved to Jersey. It hadn't got to Manhattan yet... ...Meanwhile, the Manhattan Group moved to Manhattan for the first time. The folks over here started a meeting in Bert T.'s tailor shop. Good old Bert is the guy who hocked his then-failing business to save the book Alcoholics Anonymous in 1939. In the fall, he still had the shop, and we began to hold meetings there. Little by little, things began to grow. We went from there to a room in Steinway Hall, and we felt we were in very classic and good company that gave us an aura of respectability. Finally, some of the boys -- notably Bert and Horace -- said, "A.A. should have a home. We really ought to have a club." And so the old 24th Street Club, which had belonged to the artists and illustrators and before that was a barn going back to Revolutionary times, was taken over. I think Bert and Horace signed the first lease."("The Road from the Table on Clinton Street": Bill Wilson's Talk to the Manhattan Group, NYC, 1955) Author’s Comments: This group was actually what this writer terms "The Bill & Lois Wilson Road Show." After being evicted from 182 Clinton Street the New York contingent met everywhere and anywhere over the next several months. Including Montclair, NJ, South Orange, NJ, Green Pond in NJ, Flatbush in Brooklyn, Bert Taylor’s Shop, Bert Taylor’s Loft, an apartment on West 72nd Street, Blythewood, Steinway Hall, Rockland State Hospital, and finally the 24th Street Clubhouse. (See PIO p.216-217) Based on Lois’s comments, Pass It On describes these as "At least a dozen A.A. groups had evolved in the New York Metropolitan area..." Unfortunately, this passage is misleading. We can see that this was actually a dozen different meeting locations for the same group of 30 – 40 alcoholics. This is clarified in Bill’s talk to the Manhattan Group in 1955. The previous paragraph in Pass It On explains it better when it says: "When they lived at Clinton Street, A.A. meetings had been held there. A.A. followed Bill and Lois wherever they went." The New Jersey "contingent" split off from the New York Group and remained in New Jersey when the Montclair meeting ended in mid June of 39. The NY contingent crossed the river back to Manhattan and the Jerseyites began meeting in South Orange at the home of Herb Debevoise continuing what had been started in Montclair. A.A. Group # 3 Cleveland, Ohio On May 11, 1939, one month after the book had been published, a meeting was held. It was a meeting of "Alcoholics Anonymous." It was a meeting held by, and for alcoholics and their families only. Historian, Mary C. Darrah, wrote: "In the years 1935-1939, the Oxford meetings provided a group experience for the early alcoholics. A.A. did not meet as a separate group officially named Alcoholics Anonymous until May 1939 at the home of Abby G. in Cleveland." (HIW p.141) A.A. Group # 4 The New Jersey Group Lois’s diary entry for May 14, 1939 indicates they went to the meeting at the Parkhurst’s. (PIO p.217) AACOA p.11, "We attended New Jersey’s first AA meeting, held in the summer of 1939, at the Upper Montclair home of Henry P..." (AACOA p.11) A.A. Group # 5 Greenwich Connecticut Marty pioneered a group in Greenwich so early in 1939 that some folks now think this one should carry the rating of A.A.s Group Number Three. Backed by Dr. Harry and Mrs. Wylie, owner of Blythewood, the first meetings were held on the Sanitarium’s grounds. (AACOA p.18-19) In the summer of 1939 our New York member Marty had sponsored a prospect named Nona. (AACOA p.181) "While Marty and Grenny were patients at Blythewood Sanitarium in Greenwich, Connecticut, the two of them together with Bill persuaded Mrs. Wylie, the owner to let them hold meetings there. (PIO p.216) The first year was the hardest. I had plenty of prospects but few results. All that long hot summer I went into New York once a week to the meeting, hoping a woman might appear, find me, know that she was not alone and unique, and stay. ...Finally, in October, came Nona, whom I had met when I entered the sanitarium nearly two years before. She came in wholeheartedly, a quiet girl not wanting to be noticed, but she was there. Written by Marty Mann - (For Men Only? Anonymous Grapevine – June 1960) By way of friendly inquiry I have Lois referring to the first meeting at Blythewood Sanitarium, in Greenwich, CT. as Friday, June 16, 1939 at which time Marty was still a patient. (AA History Lovers # 2896, yahoo.com) Author’s Comments: It is questionable whether or not this was actually a "group" and not just a meeting. The date is questionable as well. Marty indicates in her GV article that she was on the road attending meetings that long hot summer; not exactly substantiating a group resident in Greenwich at the time. In AACOA Bill calls this meeting "a group" so who are we to dispute that. This one may be subject to further discussion. A.A Group # 6 Chicago, Illinois According to member list index cards kept by the Chicago group, Sylvia's date of sobriety was September 13, 1939 (www.barefootsworld.net, Sylvia K.) "He wrote to New York in September 1939 that the A.A.s in Chicago were organizing a group and would have regular meetings." (DBGO p.181) Referring to a letter written by Earl T. A.A. Group # 7 Cleveland, Ohio - Borton Group Number Two in Cleveland was called the Borton Group. This group met at the home of T. E. Borton, a non-alcoholic friend of the A.A. fellowship. The meeting was located at 2427 Roxboro Road in Cleveland. Its first meeting was held on Thursday, November 16, 1939. (HIW p.150) A.A. Group # 8 Cleveland, Ohio – Orchard Grove Almost immediately thereafter, in another show of what Clarence sarcastically called A.A. "unity," they split again on November 20th. Out of the Borton group was born the Orchard Grove Group. The Orchard Group met on Monday nights at 15909 Detroit Avenue. The Orchard Group later changed its name to the Lakewood Group. (HIW p.151-152) A.A. Group # 9 Washington D.C. At first he (Fitz) met with minimal success, but by the fall of 1939 the nucleus of a small group had been established in Washington. He had been long a loner in Washington, but Fitz was eventually joined by Hardin C. and Bill A.2 and was also joined by Florence Rankin Note 2. When Bill Wilson died in 1971, Donald E. Graham, now the publisher of The Washington Post, but then a young man learning the family business from the ground up, and working as a staff writer, interviewed me. Graham's story says in part: "Bill A., an Arlington businessman, recalled that in December 1939, when Alcoholics Anonymous was a small, little-known group, he went to New York to meet Mr. Wilson. The next month Mr. Wilson helped start an AA chapter here, the fourth in the country." Sources: "Alcoholics Anonymous", "Pass It On", "Bill W." by Francis Hartigan, "History of AA in Maryland" from the website of the West Baltimore AA Group, private communications from Lee C. Compiled by Nancy O. Author’s Comments: Based on the comments of Bill A. this group would be December of 1939. Arrival of Ned Foote. supports this. However, actual start of Group may have been January of 1940. See PIO p.257 N2 Washington Intergroup History lists date as October 28, 1939 but this is in variance with PIO. In lieu of discrepancy we list this as the first group of December 1939. A.A Group # 10 San Francisco, California So it happened, that when an AA member from New York, Ray W., came to San Francisco for a sales training course in November of that year he brought with him a list of those who had made inquiries. Among them was Mrs. Oram’s boarder, Ted. From his room in the Clift Hotel on Geary Street, Ray called those on his list. He finally arranged for some of them to meet with him in his room on Tuesday, November 21, 1939. It was there that the first meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous on the West Coast was held. Aside from Ray and Ted, there were two others present, Don B. and Dave L. and the meeting lasted about two hours. As Ray mentioned, it had become clear that they would need to form an AA group in San Francisco, where they all could meet regularly. Mrs. Oram offered her kitchen as a meeting place. So shortly before Christmas, 1939, the first AA group, the "San Francisco Group" began meeting in Mrs. Oram’s kitchen, and later in various members’ homes. In October of 1940 they found a more or less permanent site for their meetings in the Telegraph Hill Community House at 1736 Stockton Street in North Beach. (www.aasf.org) AA’s First Meeting on the West Coast (Adapted from C.N.C.A History, prepared by the CNCA Archives Committee, September 1984) Authors note: Ray W. is Ray Wood from the New Jersey Group of A.A. A.A. Group # 11 Los Angeles, California She and Chuck came to Los Angeles just in time to attend the first so-called "home" meetings. This particular gathering was held at Kaye’s place on Benecia Avenue on December 19, 1939. It included Kaye and Johnny, Lee and Chuck and a number of prospects. (ACOAA p.92) A.A. Group # 12 Rockland State Hospital, NY First A.A. Group in mental institution, Rockland State Hospital, NY (AACOA p.viii) A.A. Group # 13 Detroit, Michigan Archie T. went to Akron and spent ten and one-half months living with Dr. Bob S. and his wife. He says he got his AA direct from one of the founders. Archie read Emmet Fox's Sermon on the Mount, and he said it changed his life. In December, 1939, the first meeting of AA in Michigan was held in Arch T.'s room on Merrick Avenue in the Art Center in Detroit. Present, besides Archie, were Mike E., who became member #2 in Michigan, another alcoholic, and Sara Klein, a non-alcoholic. (Copyright© 1999-2006 Alcoholics Anonymous General Services of Southeast Michigan) http://www.aa-semi.org/ A.A. Group # 14 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania On February 13, 1940, with about two years of sobriety, Jim and Rosa moved to the Philadelphia area and started a group there. (www.barefootsworld.net/aaburwell.html) A.A. Group # 15 Houston, Texas The first Houston A.A. meeting was held March 15, 1940, in a room in the YWCA Bldg. The group continued to meet on Tuesdays with as many as 25 attending -- but often a different 25 each time! Ed H. and Roy Y. tried to educate ministers and doctors without much success until they were referred to Dr. David Wade at Galveston State Hospital. Dr. Wade was to remain a good friend of A.A. (Bob P. Unpublished AA History Manuscript) A.A Group # 16 Little Rock, Arkansas The first meeting of the three men - Sterling C, Harlan N, and Bud G - as an AA group was in late May 1940 in the insurance agency office in the Wallace Bldg, Markham and Main Streets. The group ran ads in the newspaper as they continued to meet, and began to grow. (Bob P. Unpublished AA History Manuscript) A.A. Group # 17 Evansville, Indiana J. D. Holmes and the First A.A. Group in Indiana: Evansville, April 23, 1940" The man who started A.A. in Indiana was a man named James D. "J. D." Holmes. He was one of the original Akron A.A. group. He got sober in September 1936: if we count Bill W. and Dr. Bob as numbers one and two, J. D. was A.A. number ten. On May 30, 1938, he and his wife Rhoda moved to Evansville, Indiana, which is in the extreme southwestern part of the state, on the banks of the Ohio River. He was unable to get any other alcoholics in Evansville to join him until the Big Book was published in 1939. Dr. Bob sent him a copy of the Big Book the minute it came off the press, and with this new aid, he was able to reach out to a local surgeon, Dr. Joe Welborn, after Dr. Joe's drinking finally landed him in the county jail in April of 1940. Dr. Joe brought in other alcoholics who were patients of his, and the first A.A. group in Indiana met on Tuesday evening, April 23, 1940, in J. D. and Rhoda's home at 420 S. Denby St. in Evansville. (http://hindsfoot.org/nfirst.html) A.A. Group # 18 Cleveland, Ohio - West 50th Street On May 1, 1940 the West 50th Street Group broke away from the Orchard Grove Group taking four members with them. The West 50th Street Group had their first meeting on May 8th. By the end of its first year, that group had eighty-seven members. They met at 3241 West 50th Street on Wednesday evenings. Its name was later changed to the Brooklyn Group. (HIW p.169) A.A. Group # 19 Camden, New Jersey "Thanks so much for your letter of the 11th regarding Camden A.A. meetings to begin Tuesday the 14th. We are more than glad to send along 30 of the A.A. pamphlets to give you a start at Camden. They were mailed this morning - hope you have them in time for first meeting. . . . In the event we receive inquiries for assistance in the South Jersey area, Alcoholics Anonymous speaking, may we take the liberty of refering them directly to you? Best regards to you all from the New York and Northern New Jersey Fellowships." (GSO Archives Letter from Ruth Hock 5/13/1940 to J.R.Tucker) A.A. Group # 20 Richmond, Virginia In the spring of 1940, Ted C from Richmond, Virginia, was undergoing treatment at Rockland State Hospital in New York -"the first [hospital in the East) to enter into full scale cooperation with AA" So the New York office of AA, learning that Ted C was returning to Richmond with a new business connection, asked him to serve as the AA contact there. One of the first referrals was McChee B, who was helped by Ted. The two men now hoped to start a group. The first AA meeting in Virginia was held June 6, 1940 at McChee’s apartment with 12 present. However, as Bill W later recalled, they "believed in getting away from their wives and drinking only beer." It didn’t work, and the group fell apart almost immediately. (Bob P.AA History Manuscript) Authors Comments: This group disbanded and re-started the following year. We carry this group here because it was listed in A.A. Bulletin # 1, 11/14/1940, as an active location. A.A Group # 21 Baltimore Maryland Jimmy (Burwell) was also responsible, later, for the start of A.A. in Baltimore. The second Baltimore meeting, held in June of 1940, was attended by six people; (PIO 258N) On June 16, 1940, the two Jims met with three other men at Ridgely's home on St. Paul Street. Several days later, Burwell received a letter in Philadelphia from a Baltimore lawyer who wanted to help his alcoholic brother and offered his office in the Munsey Building on Fayette Street as a meeting place. On June 22, 1940, the six men held the second Baltimore AA meeting in that office. (Nancy Olson- History of AA in Maryland) A.A. Group #22 Dayton, Ohio Authors Comments: See note for Group # 26. Trying to substantiate this date for Dayton. A.A. Group #23 Coldwater, Michigan ...it appears that that there was AA activity in Coldwater, Michigan prior to October 1940, which is alluded to in a letter dated May 7, 1941. The letter is addressed to Mr. Walter P. and reads, in part: "I met a few of the Coldwater group last summer on my trip through Michigan and I particularly remember Bill F. who still writes quite often and always interestingly. I notice that Hillsdale is close enough to Coldwater to make it feasible for you to attend meetings there if you so desire." (1941 Letter from Ruth Hock to Walter P.) A.A. Group # 24 Cleveland, Ohio – Berea Group On August 27th, the Berea Group formed and met at the home of Bob J. It had nine members and at the end of its first year, had grown to thirty members. On September 3rd, the group moved from the home of Bob J. to St. Thomas Episcopal Church Parish Hall in Berea. (HIW p.170) A.A. Group # 25 Cleveland, Ohio – Westlake Group On September 20th the Westlake Group branched off from the Orchard Grove Group and began meeting at the Hotel Westlake. When the Westlake Group left Orchard Grove, it took thirty members with it. The group later became the Lake Shore Group. (HIW p.170) Notes on Groups not listed above but included in the November 14, 1940 AA Bulletin Toledo and Younstown tie for # 26. Duke never did pick up another drink. A few months later, in September of 1940, he and the other Toledo members started their own group. (DBGO p.254) By September of 1940, Cleveland was reporting to Bill in New York that, in addition to its own six meetings and 400 – 500 members, Ohio had meetings in Akron, Toledo, Youngstown, Dayton, Raveena, Wooster, and Canton. (DBGO p.262) Authors Comments: "Meetings" do not constitute "groups". We include Youngstown and Toledo as # 26 but not Raveena, Wooster and Canton in accordance with "Groups" listed in A.A. Bulletin # 1 November 14, 1940. Jackson, Michigan – Group start date unsubstantiated and group disbanded. We had lots of fine members whom I remember with great affection. I have good memories of Bernie W., Roy D., Butch and Jake (a she) C., Silvanus J., Bill H., Charlie S., Ruth W., Frank Mc., Beck U., and many others whose names don't come up on my screen at the moment, although I could remember them with a bit of jogging. We called ourselves Jackson Group #2, although there was not a #1 in an active state. However, there was a group registered in the national AA directory with Stan S. as a contact, but I never knew him and as far as I knew, it wasn't meeting. I would be happy to review any records you have, but I do think you can use December, 1939, as the starting time for AA in Jackson. It may have taken some time to really get off the ground, but I think we have to call Al C., the founder with later backup from Jack D.I hope this is of some help to you. Please call if you have more questions and I'll try to help. All the best, Mel B. Then we heard from Tom B.: Bud S. the electrician told me that Jackson Group #1 folded after they lost their meeting place when their landlord padlocked the hall. The present Jackson Group, official registered in New York as Jackson Group #2, held its first meeting on the first Sunday of September 1945. Where the meeting was held has been forgotten but the date was confirmed by a copy of the minutes of business meetings from 1950, 1951 and 1952 that I got from Bud C. whose late brother-in-law had been group secretary in those years. Barb S. borrowed the notebooks to read over, and lost them all in moving to Texas and then back to Jackson. Tom says that Bud S. also told him that Al C. had a coffee shop in the Otsego Hotel in the early 40's. One night each week, Al closed early so that AA could meet in the coffee shop. Copyright© 2006 The Jackson Group http://www.aa-semi.org/ Waunakee Wisconsin – Local A.A. activity, but members attending meetings in Chicago. After an exhaustive search, I found no groups listed in Waunakee, Wisconsin prior to October 1, 1940, however there was indeed mention of AA activity in Waunakee, during this period. Early correspondence reveals that Harry S., of Waunakee, WI, may have been the first individual to contact GSO from this city. Harry’s earliest letter dates November 20, 1939 and reads, "I thank you for your letter of the 14th I would be pleased to correspond with your Chicago membership and perhaps would go there to see more of it." In a letter dating July 24, 1940, Harry writes: "My position as Chief Chef for the Mendota State Hospital, Mendota, Wisconsin, (a suburb of Madison Wisconsin) brings me in close contact with all types of alcoholics. A good many of these are more than anxious to stop drinking and are well worth saving, as a matter of fact, I have talked to a number of them and have outlined your procedure...I have had some correspondence with your Miss Coultis of Chicago who has very kindly invited me to attend some of their meetings there...I am eager to start a group in Madison and would so much appreciate any information you might give me which would enable to do so." There are few more letters from Harry in the file. Please note that letters from Harry are all filed with other group correspondence in the "Madison" folder. (Asst. GSO Archivist Michelle M.) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5864. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Timeline of the First 25 A.A. Groups From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/12/2009 2:05:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have taken some of John B.'s dates directly into master list we are setting up. I though it would be worthwhile to give my own additional notes however on four places: - - - - We had Pennsylvania: Philadelphia 1st organizational meeting February 28, 1940; Jimmy Burwell formed the Philadelphia Mother Group on March 6, 1940. John B. gives Philadelphia February 13, 1940, using the date from the little bio of Jimmy Burwell at http://www.barefootsworld.net/aaburwell.html What do the folks from that part of the east coast say about this? Should it be February 28 or February 13? And what documents or other kinds of evidence do we have? - - - - We had Illinois: Chicago (Evanston) September 20, 1939, using the date of the first meeting in Chicago, as given in the history of Chicago AA given to us by Past Chicago Delegate Don Bennitt. John B. gives Chicago September 13, 1939, using Sylvia K.'s sobriety date. I think the date of the first meeting, since we now have it, is the more appropriate one to give. - - - - We had California: San Francisco November 21, 1939, using the date when they had their first meeting in Ray W.'s room at the Clift Hotel. John B. give San Francisco December 1939, taking the date when the group started meeting in Mrs Oram's kitchen. I think the first meeting in Ray's hotel room ought to be counted as the founding date, using the normal custom of calculating when AA started at a place (that is, the group doesn't have to have a regular meeting place, as long as they have actually started meeting). - - - - We had Michigan: Detroit January 4, 1940. John B. gives Detroit December 1939, which is the date given on the Detroit intergroup's website. (This is also the date given in http://hindsfoot.org/detr0.html which is taken from the same Detroit intergroup website.) It seems to me that we ought to take John B.'s date here as the correct one. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5866. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: First AA groups: Philadelphia, Wash. State, Wash. D.C. From: Cindy Miller . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/12/2009 10:26:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Philadelphia, Washington State, Washington D.C. PHILADELPHIA: From: Cindy Miller (cm53 at earthlink.net) well, I don't know how important it is to quibble over 2 weeks...BUT ...in regard to Philadelphia: Jimmy arrived in Philly on February 13. The first meeting was not held until Feb. 28. This date is validated by an existing letter that Jimmy sent to Clarence S. the next day (Feb. 29--leap year) in which Jimmy describes having a meeting with 7 drunks the day before. -cm - - - - From: Shakey1aa@aol.com (Shakey1aa at aol.com) BTW the 1st planning meeting in Phila was on Feb 29th,1940. It was a leap year. Jimmy sent a letter confirming the date to Clarence "Snider"(He misspelled Snyder) in Cleve.,Oh in a letter on file at the S.E. Pa. I.G. Assn. Archives. There were alcoholics meeting in the office of Dr C Dudley Saul two years before Jimmy brought AA to Philadelphia.(1938) This can be proven in the documentation of John Park Lee. The meetings were not AA meetings but were meetings of alcoholic patients of the good doctor. Yours in Service, Shakey Mike Gwirtz Phila, Pa - - - - From: "J. Lobdell" (jlobdell54 at hotmail.com) The date Feb 13 is the date Jim B moved to Philadelphia, not the date he formed a group. Even so, fifteen days was pretty quick work. - - - - WASHINGTON STATE: From: buck johnson (buckjohnson41686 at yahoo.com) Washington State, first meeting of the Seattle Group, April 19, 1941 held at New Washington Hotel. From "Our Stories Disclose ... A history of western Washington Area of Alcoholics anonymous 1939-2002", Second Edition page 12 &13. Published by western Washington Area of Alcoholics Anonymous, Seattle 2004. Material from "The History of Washington State Alcoholics Anonymous 1941...1966, copyrighted 1966 by Everett K. - - - - WASHINGTON D.C. From: Shakey1aa@aol.com (Shakey1aa at aol.com) AAHL members, How many of these groups, not meetings, flourished and continued? How many just met 1 or 2 times then stopped? How many can be confirmed and not just here say? I ask this because I remember that Bill and Fitz both asked Jimmy B to help out in Wash D.C. where AA was struggling and couldn't get off the ground. I've read what WAIA (Wash Area I.G. Assn) lists as their history and wonder what documentation they have that substantiates the "boys of 38" Yours in Service, Shakey Mike Gwirtz Phila, Pa IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5867. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Timeline of the First 25 A.A. Groups From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/12/2009 10:42:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From J. Lobdell and Don Bennitt, three corrections to John B.'s list - - - - From J. LOBDELL > Original message from: "John Barton" > (jax760 at yahoo.com) > > TIMELINE OF THE FIRST 25 A.A. GROUPS > > 12. New York: Orangeberg - Rockland State Hospital (December 1939) wrong -- ORANGEBURG > > 14. Pennsylvania: Philadelphia (February 13, 1940) WRONG -- FEB 28 -- Jim moved to Phila Feb 13 - - - - From: DONALD BENNITT (dbennitt at sbcglobal.net) The Chicago date is incorrect.....September 13, 1939 is Sylvias' sober date, the first meeting was September 20 1939..... Don IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5868. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Timeline of the First 25 A.A. Groups From: John Barton . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/13/2009 3:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In order to keep the first 25 list accurate with source references please cite your source for dates of groups. i.e. Philadelphia & Chicago. Thanks - - - - From J. LOBDELL (jlobdell54 at hotmail.com) > Original message from: "John Barton" > (jax760 at yahoo.com) > > TIMELINE OF THE FIRST 25 A.A. GROUPS > > 14. Pennsylvania: Philadelphia (February 13, 1940) WRONG -- FEB 28 -- Jim moved to Phila Feb 13 - - - - From: DONALD BENNITT (dbennitt at sbcglobal.net) The Chicago date is incorrect... ..September 13, 1939 is Sylvias' sober date, the first meeting was September 20 1939..... Don IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5869. . . . . . . . . . . . Group start date: how it is defined From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/13/2009 3:36:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A group start date is based on when the second sober alcoholic shows up to join with the first sober alcoholic. When they had the first meeting does not determine the beginning of a group. That's the basis for defining the beginning of AA when Dr Bob, the second alcoholic, joined with Bill W to form the AA Fellowship (qualified by the date that Dr Bob had his last drink). It is also the basis for defining the beginning of Akron Group #1 as July 4, 1935 when Bill D left the hospital to join with Dr Bob to form Akron Group #1. From other postings, I think care should be exercised in people today labeling groups as so-called "meetings" as opposed to "groups." Early AA made no such hair-splitting distinction. The long form of Tradition Three was first published in the April 1946 Grapevine in the article "Twelve Suggested Points for AA Tradition" and stated "... Any two or three alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an A.A. Group." Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Cindy Miller Sent: Sunday, July 12, 2009 9:27 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: First AA groups: Philadelphia, Wash. State, Wash. D.C. Philadelphia, Washington State, Washington D.C. PHILADELPHIA: From: Cindy Miller (cm53 at earthlink.net) well, I don't know how important it is to quibble over 2 weeks...BUT ...in regard to Philadelphia: Jimmy arrived in Philly on February 13. The first meeting was not held until Feb. 28. This date is validated by an existing letter that Jimmy sent to Clarence S. the next day (Feb. 29--leap year) in which Jimmy describes having a meeting with 7 drunks the day before. -cm - - - - From: Shakey1aa@aol.com (Shakey1aa at aol.com) BTW the 1st planning meeting in Phila was on Feb 29th,1940. It was a leap year. Jimmy sent a letter confirming the date to Clarence "Snider"(He misspelled Snyder) in Cleve.,Oh in a letter on file at the S.E. Pa. I.G. Assn. Archives. There were alcoholics meeting in the office of Dr C Dudley Saul two years before Jimmy brought AA to Philadelphia.(1938) This can be proven in the documentation of John Park Lee. The meetings were not AA meetings but were meetings of alcoholic patients of the good doctor. Yours in Service, Shakey Mike Gwirtz Phila, Pa - - - - From: "J. Lobdell" (jlobdell54 at hotmail.com) The date Feb 13 is the date Jim B moved to Philadelphia, not the date he formed a group. Even so, fifteen days was pretty quick work. - - - - WASHINGTON STATE: From: buck johnson (buckjohnson41686 at yahoo.com) Washington State, first meeting of the Seattle Group, April 19, 1941 held at New Washington Hotel. From "Our Stories Disclose ... A history of western Washington Area of Alcoholics anonymous 1939-2002", Second Edition page 12 &13. Published by western Washington Area of Alcoholics Anonymous, Seattle 2004. Material from "The History of Washington State Alcoholics Anonymous 1941...1966, copyrighted 1966 by Everett K. - - - - WASHINGTON D.C. From: Shakey1aa@aol.com (Shakey1aa at aol.com) AAHL members, How many of these groups, not meetings, flourished and continued? How many just met 1 or 2 times then stopped? How many can be confirmed and not just here say? I ask this because I remember that Bill and Fitz both asked Jimmy B to help out in Wash D.C. where AA was struggling and couldn't get off the ground. I've read what WAIA (Wash Area I.G. Assn) lists as their history and wonder what documentation they have that substantiates the "boys of 38" Yours in Service, Shakey Mike Gwirtz Phila, Pa ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5870. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: First AA groups: Philadelphia, Wash. State, Wash. D.C. From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/15/2009 9:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII On Wash DC it's the boys of '39 (and Nov at that) tho' Florence and Fitz tried independently in 1937 or 1938, apparently. The 1995 WAIA History is on the net w/o footnotes, tho' some letters are quoted. The Maryland Archives I saw at Minneapolis in 2000 have some letters from Ned F., but I don't recall if they have anything useful. > To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > From: cm53@earthlink.net > Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 22:26:33 -0400 > Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: First AA groups: Philadelphia, Wash. State, Wash. D.C. > > Philadelphia, Washington State, Washington D.C. > > PHILADELPHIA: > > From: Cindy Miller > (cm53 at earthlink.net) > > well, I don't know how important it is to quibble > over 2 weeks...BUT ...in regard to Philadelphia: > Jimmy arrived in Philly on February 13. The first > meeting was not held until Feb. 28. This date is > validated by an existing letter that Jimmy sent > to Clarence S. the next day (Feb. 29--leap year) > in which Jimmy describes having a meeting with 7 > drunks the day before. > > -cm > > - - - - > > From: Shakey1aa@aol.com (Shakey1aa at aol.com) > > BTW the 1st planning meeting in Phila was on Feb 29th,1940. It was a > leap year. Jimmy sent a letter confirming the date to Clarence "Snider"(He > misspelled Snyder) in Cleve.,Oh in a letter on file at the S.E. Pa. I.G. Assn. Archives. > > There were alcoholics meeting in the office of Dr C Dudley Saul two > years before Jimmy brought AA to Philadelphia.(1938) This can be proven in > the documentation of John Park Lee. The meetings were not AA meetings but > were meetings of alcoholic patients of the good doctor. > > Yours in Service, > Shakey Mike Gwirtz > Phila, Pa > > - - - - > > From: "J. Lobdell" > (jlobdell54 at hotmail.com) > > The date Feb 13 is the date Jim B moved to > Philadelphia, not the date he formed a group. > Even so, fifteen days was pretty quick work. > > - - - - > > WASHINGTON STATE: > > From: buck johnson > (buckjohnson41686 at yahoo.com) > > Washington State, first meeting of the Seattle > Group, April 19, 1941 held at New Washington > Hotel. From "Our Stories Disclose ... A history > of western Washington Area of Alcoholics anonymous > 1939-2002", Second Edition page 12 &13. Published > by western Washington Area of Alcoholics Anonymous, > Seattle 2004. > > Material from "The History of Washington State > Alcoholics Anonymous 1941...1966, copyrighted > 1966 by Everett K. > > - - - - > > WASHINGTON D.C. > > From: Shakey1aa@aol.com (Shakey1aa at aol.com) > > AAHL members, > How many of these groups, not meetings, flourished and continued? How > many just met 1 or 2 times then stopped? How many can be confirmed and not > just here say? I ask this because I remember that Bill and Fitz both asked > Jimmy B to help out in Wash D.C. where AA was struggling and couldn't get > off the ground. I've read what WAIA (Wash Area I.G. Assn) lists as their > history and wonder what documentation they have that substantiates the "boys of 38" > > Yours in Service, > Shakey Mike Gwirtz > Phila, Pa > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > _________________________________________________________________ Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail®. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutori al_Q\ uickAdd_062009 [15] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5871. . . . . . . . . . . . The voices who cry for sex and more sex From: jacci.phillips . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/15/2009 7:22:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Big Book page 69 1st paragraph: "They think we do not have enough of it ...." The question is who are "they"? Thank you, Jacci - - - - From the moderator: "They" are "the voices who cry for sex and more sex" in the preceding sentence. Think Sigmund Freud and the flappers of the Roaring Twenties, to get a feel for what that era of history was like. The psychoanalyst Sigmund Freud's "The Interpretation of Dreams" appeared in 1899. He made a famous trip to lecture in the United States (at Clark University) in 1909. He developed his theory of the ego, the id, and the superego in the 1920 essay "Beyond the Pleasure Principle," and fully elaborated upon it in "The Ego and the Id" in 1923. Freud was part of a rebellion by some within the western world during that period against the extremely repressive sexual attitudes that had flourished during the reign of Queen Victoria (1837 to 1901). (And Roman Catholic theologians had been urging total virginity and abstinence from any kind of sex at all as the route to Christian perfection for ALL people ever since the period of the Cluniac reformers c. 900 to 1100 A.D.) Freud (and others like him) were rebelling against all that during the early decades of the twentieth century. By the 1920's, young women in the western world (sometimes called "flappers") stopped wearing long skirts and started wearing short skirts that allowed men to see their ankles and legs, and even sometimes their knees. They danced the Charleston and the Black Bottom, and other dances which preachers of the period denounced as sexually lascivious and immoral. And some of them may in fact have been a bit more adventurous sexually than some of their mothers had been. Anne Smith (Dr. Bob's wife), who was born in 1881, was still wearing fairly long skirts when she was a young woman, as can been seen from her college photo, for example. By the time Lois Wilson was a young woman, skirts were a good deal shorter. And Lois openly acknowledge in her reminiscences (as they have been published) that she enjoyed sex, which a middle class Victorian era woman would never have said publically. So some of the difference in sexual attitudes were generational, but AA at the time the Big Book was written had people of both generations in it (Victorian and post-Victorian). In the 1960's and early 1970's, there was another wave of sexual rebellion in some parts of the world (the US and the UK for example), so the same sort of conflict once again arose between those who favored fairly open and tolerant sexual behavior, and those who preached against that kind of "permissivism," as they termed it, which they said was "destructive of family values" and so on. Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5872. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: First AA groups: Washington DC From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/16/2009 11:45:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII AA group founded in Washington DC founded in, on, or near Oct 26 1939. AA referred four alcoholics to Fitz and one of them was Harden C. "The first contacts between Fitz and Harden C. marks the beginning of AA in Washington DC." The Washington Group: Foundations 1936 - 1941 P. 28 Revised and Expanded Edition Printed 1995 (WAIA) Archives Project Washington DC Bill W recalling Fitz working with alcoholics in DC in 1936. A.A. Fact sheet 14 p.6 - - - - From G.C. the moderator: I am putting "October 28 or 29, 1939" on the Master List for the date of the first AA meeting in Washington DC, based on this document: http://www.aa-dc.org/ http://aa-dc.org/waia/Wash-Book-21Oct2008.pdf (page 31) "When Fitz moved to Washington, he became the southernmost representative of Alcoholics Anonymous, and he was therefore responsible for the territory south of the Mason-Dixon Line. Two of the four inquiries that were referred to him came from Washington, one came from lower Virginia, and one from North Carolina. One of the Washington drunks referred to Fitz by this letter was Hardin C. The first contact between Fitz and Hardin C, marks the beginning of the Washington Group. From this meeting of two men, the Washington Group grew and continued to expand over the decades." "The date of the meeting was two or three days after Fitz received the letter from New York dated October 26, 1939. If the mail took two days to arrive from New York, then the date of the founding of the Washington Group was October 28, 1939." - - - - In a message dated 7/16/2009, jlobdell54@hotmail.com writes: On Wash DC it's the boys of '39 (and Nov at that) tho' Florence and Fitz tried independently in 1937 or 1938, apparently. The 1995 WAIA History is on the net w/o footnotes, tho' some letters are quoted. The Maryland Archives I saw at Minneapolis in 2000 have some letters from Ned F., but I don't recall if they have anything useful. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5873. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: First AA meeting in Chicago From: DONALD BENNITT . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/16/2009 8:53:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I am glad someone brought this up, it prompted me to investigate more, and ...... In the 1949 September issue of HERE'S HOW, The Chicago newsletter, there is an announcement that the first meeting was in Earl's house on September 21, 1939. I have never seen this date before, the record in the Chicago Archives is September 20 ..... I am going to change the date in my history record. In response to Arthurs' statement the date of the first group should be when the second man showed up, Dick R. got in touch with Earl in August of 1938, Earl gave no actual day. Don - - - - Original message from: DONALD BENNITT (dbennitt at sbcglobal.net) The Chicago date is incorrect.....September 13, 1939 is Sylvias' sober date, the first meeting was September 20 1939..... Don IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5874. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Another of the slogans: Think think think From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/13/2009 12:12:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I don't see any cause and effect association between the IBM and AA slogans - it's seems like speculation. Is there a non-anecdotal source for corroboration that it "... was adopted by AA members from a sign that came with early IBM calculating machines ..." T J Watson Sr coined the slogan "Think" in 1911 long before the forerunner companies evolved into the name "International Business Machines" in 1924. The slogan consisted simply of the single word "Think." http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/attic2/attic2_207.html [16] Cheers Arthur - - - - From: Jon Markle (serenitylodge at mac.com) Re: Another of the slogans: Think think think This one was exlplained to me: Think it all the way through. Hugs for the trudge Jon (Raleigh) 9/9/82 - - - - From: "Glenn Chesnut" glennccc@sbcglobal.net (glennccc at sbcglobal.net) It seems to me that Arthur's warning should be taken seriously. It certainly appears that a lot of legend and creative myth-making has built up around this. I did a search on the internet for IBM and the word "think," and in every single case that word only appeared once. I could find no example at all of an IBM sign that had "Think Think Think" three times, let alone with the fanciful explanations that are sometimes given in AA legend about what these were supposed to mean. So to give a few examples out of many: IBM Archives: THINK Sign http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/attic2/attic2_207.html [16] The "THINK" motto was developed by Thomas J. Watson, Sr., three years before he joined the forerunner of today's IBM in 1914. By the early 1930s, THINK began to take precedence over other slogans in IBM, and it appeared on signs such as this in IBM plants and offices, and in company publications, calendars and photographs all over the world. http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/vintage/vintage_4506VV2024.html [17] THINK was a one-word slogan developed by IBM founder Thomas J. Watson, Sr. It appeared in IBM offices, plants and company publications in the 1920s and in the early 1930s began to take precedence over other slogans in IBM. It eventually appeared in wood, stone and bronze, and was published in company newspapers, magazines, calendars, photographs, medallions -- even New Yorker cartoons -- and it remained for years the name of IBM's employee publication. You can still find echoes of Watson's motto in the brand name of IBM's popular notebook computers: the ThinkPad. This photograph shows a number of THINK signs rendered in a variety of languages for display by IBM employees around the world. http://home.comcast.net/~suptjud/IBMMachines.htm http://www.timewarptoys.com/think.jpg (on this webpage http://www.timewarptoys.com/gallery.htm ) http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/vintage/vintage_4506VV2184.html [18] It's 1940 and these 22 young men are operating an electric accounting machine installation somewhere in IBM. We know it's an IBM installation because visible in the photograph are an IBM job time recorder (for logging the start and end of various accounting jobs), one photo of Thomas J. Watson, Sr. and five THINK signs. Can you spot them? - - - - On Jul 9, 2009, at 6:03 PM, John Barton wrote: > THINK, THINK, THINK > > This slogan is not found in the BB but was > adopted by AA members from a sign that came > with early IBM calculating machines. The sign > said: > > THINK of what you are about to do > > THINK of what you are doing > > THINK of what you have done > > - - - - > > J. Lobdell wrote: > > We have been discussing the early AA slogans, > especially "But for the Grace of God." > > But another of the early slogans was also > mentioned: > > This one -- "Think think think" -- was perhaps > not biblical. It seems to have been an IBM slogan > put up on a Cleveland AA bulletin board or the > equivalent ca 1944 much to the chagrin of > Clarence S., who observed (approximately) > "Alcoholics don't think -- they emote." > > (Mitch K. can probably provide chapter and > verse on this.) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5875. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: First AA meeting in Philadelphia From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/14/2009 9:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII For Philadelphia both Johnny L's letter to Ruth Hock and Jimmy B's reminiscences are available on line (silkworth and barefoot, I think). - - - - > From: jax760@yahoo.com > Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 > Re: Timeline of the First 25 A.A. Groups > > In order to keep the first 25 list accurate > with source references please cite your source > for dates of groups. > > i.e. Philadelphia & Chicago. > > Thanks > > - - - - > > From J. LOBDELL > > (jlobdell54 at hotmail.com) > > > 14. Pennsylvania: Philadelphia (February 13, > 1940) WRONG -- FEB 28 -- Jim moved to Phila Feb 13 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5876. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Group start date: how it is defined From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/15/2009 3:26:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII True for you, Arthur -- but the creation of the service structure and thus of Group Representatives (GRs, now General Service Representatives, GSRs) leads to a quick test of what's a group and what's a meeting. If it has a GSR or according to the District it's in should have a GSR (or if it's an institutional group that doesn't have anyone available to be a GSR because the GSR can't be a facility employee or an inmate), it's a group. Otherwise it's a meeting. The text in the Third Tradition echoes "whenever two or three are gathered together" from the Evening Service of the Episcopal Book of Common Prayer and thus implies a continuing existence for the Group as a spiritual entity, as opposed to a single meeting. But of course we have meetings that go year after year, but aren't groups, either because they have no officers (including a GSR) or because the group holding the meeting has more than one meeting. Thus the Fellowship Group in District 65, Area 59, has twenty-eight meetings a week [Lebanon PA], as does the Easy Does It Group in District 64, Area 59 [Lancaster PA]. On the other hand, there is a Tuesday night meeting in District 65, Area 59, that, despite having met every Tuesday for a decade, has no group structure (and no home group members either, though there is one AA who has been there for, I think, more than 500 of the meetings). It's a meeting -- not a group. - - - - From: jenny andrews (jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com) "... any two or three alcoholics gathered together" goes back long before the Episcopal Book of Common Prayer, and clearly echoes Matthew 18:20 in the New Testament: "19. Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. 20. For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." Laurie A. - - - - > From: ArtSheehan@msn.com > Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 > Subject: Group start date: how it is defined > > A group start date is based on when the second sober alcoholic shows up to join with the first sober alcoholic. When they had the first meeting does not determine the beginning of a group. That's the basis for defining the beginning of AA when Dr Bob, the second alcoholic, joined with Bill W to form the AA Fellowship (qualified by the date that Dr Bob had his last drink). It is also the basis for defining the beginning of Akron Group #1 as July 4, 1935 when Bill D left the hospital to join with Dr Bob to form Akron Group #1. > > From other postings, I think care should be exercised in people today labeling groups as so-called "meetings" as opposed to "groups." Early AA made no such hair-splitting distinction. The long form of Tradition Three was first published in the April 1946 Grapevine in the article "Twelve Suggested Points for AA Tradition" and stated "... Any two or three alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an A.A. Group." > > Cheers > Arthur IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5877. . . . . . . . . . . . The Irishman in the chapter on Tradition Five in the 12 and 12 From: kodom2545 . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/21/2009 9:37:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Do we know who the Irishman is in the chapter on Tradition Five in the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, pp. 151-154? It was a man in Towns Hospital whom Dr. Silkworth indicated as someone who might be a possible candidate for the A.A. program. God Bless, Kyle IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5878. . . . . . . . . . . . Photo of Jim Newton and Russell Firestone From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/21/2009 11:14:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I recently stumbled across a photo of Jim Newton and Russell Firestone (online) and can't for the life of me remember where I spotted it. Does anyone recall seeing this? God Bless John B. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5879. . . . . . . . . . . . First AA meeting in Los Angeles From: Charles Grotts . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/14/2009 3:18:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In Los Angeles our AA meeting directory says that the first meeting in L.A. took place on December 19, 1939 but that meeting died out. The first meeting that lasted was started on either the last Friday in March or the 1st Friday in April, 1940, according to Mort Joseph, who organized it. In a talk given in 1975, he said he never could remember which Friday it was. That was at the Cecil Hotel in downtown Los Angeles, which still exists. It was called "The Old Mother Group." After moving to several locations, it eventually died out too. History pamphlet: http://www.lacoaa.org/HOW%20AA.pdf IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5880. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Another of the slogans: Think think think From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/19/2009 6:10:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Cora Finch, J. Lobdell, Troubled Individual, and John Lee in Pittsburgh Arthur Sheehan wrote in an earlier message: > I don't see any cause and effect association > between the IBM and AA slogans - it's seems > like speculation. Is there a non-anecdotal > source for corroboration that it "... was > adopted by AA members from a sign that came > with early IBM calculating machines ..." > > T J Watson Sr coined the slogan "Think" in 1911 > long before the forerunner companies evolved > into the name "International Business Machines" > in 1924. The slogan consisted simply of the > single word "Think." I tried the old indiscriminate-search technique on this problem. Repetition of the word "think" for emphasis appears early, e.g. a Ben Jonson play from the 1600s, where a character tells another to "think think think think", but of course that is not in any sense a slogan. In 1909, in a book on American authors, this sentence appears: "To produce vital and useful criticism it is necessary to think think think and then when tired of thinking, to think more." I've seen that exact sentence quoted in at least one other book (with the author's name--W.C. Brownell). The phrase "think think think" or "think think and think" seems to have developed a life on its own over the next few decades. It showed up in several letters to the editor in the 1950s-60s. One 1950s article about IBM made it clear that each sign was just one word, but described the effect of multiple signs as, "Think . . . Think . . . Think," in the sense that the occupant of room with several such signs would experience it as repetitive. So it would be entirely understandable if the previous literary/expository repetitions of the word combined with the IBM use of one-word signs to create a slogan. Cora - - - - From: "J. Lobdell" (jlobdell54 at hotmail.com) Arthur Sheehan wrote: > I don't see any cause and effect association > between the IBM and AA slogans - it's seems > like speculation. Is there a non-anecdotal > source for corroboration that it "... was > adopted by AA members from a sign that came > with early IBM calculating machines ..." It depends on whether one considers Clarence Snyder's recollections (as recorded by Mitchell K.) as purely anecdotal or as an historical source. Myself, as an historian, with a Ph.D. in (Applied) History, and having produced a number of books based on transcriptions of dictated memoirs, and having some years ago done at paper for the Oral History Association on the value of such transcriptions, I'd call Clarence's story of the IBM connection pretty good evidence -- certainly in the absence of evidence to the contrary. So -- if not history, at least an historical source. Of course, we know that even Bill W's accounts of the early history of AA -- even Dr. Bob's DLD -- are subject to question (and Jimmy B. recorded that Dr Bob, perhaps not counting the beer Bill gave him, counted his sobriety from June 15 not June 10 -- hearsay but not anecdotal). - - - - From: Troubled Individual (addicttedone at yahoo.com) I got sober in a clubhouse here in Atlanta, many years ago I'm quite thankful for, and they had to sign "THINK THINK THINK" posted on one of their walls. Right across the room was a sign saying "DON'T THINK, DONT DRINK, and GO TO MEETINGS." I used to sit and stare at those two signs wondering how these "fools" could site here day after day, week after week and not realize this oxymoron. Don't worry, I got better and I'm not sure if the signs still remain in the building like that or not. Let's hope so. - - - - From: "johnlawlee" (johnlawlee at yahoo.com) "Think the drink through" is heard regularly at AA meetings, but it's absent from the AA literature. It's another popular cliche scattered by treatment centers. There's a large group of people who can think the drink through--these people are called "non-alcoholics". A serviceable lay definition of "alcoholic" would be "someone who cannot reliably think the drink through." The Big Book assures us, at page 24, that a real alcoholic cannot bring into consciousness with sufficient force the humiliation of a week ago. Page 43 indicates that, at certain times, the real alcoholic has no effective defense against the first drink. He has placed himself beyond human power, so that memory, knowledge, fear and fellowship will not protect him from the first drink. If drunks were able to reliably think the drink through, they'd never need the Steps or spiritual experience, only a desire to stop drinking. John Lee Pittsburgh IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5881. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: First AA group in Missouri From: Jeff Tedford . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/20/2009 6:25:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII St. Louis, Missouri on October 30, 1940 Per our Eastern Missouri District 51 Archivist, Renee, "From Golden Moments of Reflection: 1st AA meeting in Missouri at Gibson Hotel on Enright October 30, 1940." - - - - From G.C. the moderator: there is more about this in Bob Pearson's unpublished history of AA, which describes Father Ed Dowling's trip to New York City to see Bill Wilson, and then says: "After Father Ed returned to St.Louis, he was contacted by F., who said his son-in-law had a drinking problem. Of course, it was F. himself who had the drinking problem and was seeking help. With Father Ed’s aid and encouragement, F. rounded up four other prospects and held the first A.A. meeting in St. Louis (and in the state of Missouri) on October 30, 1940, at the Gibson Hotel, 5883 Enright Avenue." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5882. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Group start date: how it is defined From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/19/2009 5:32:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Arthur S., GRault, and Larry Tooley - - - - "Arthur S" (ArtSheehan at msn.com) Hi Jared I'm an active member in the General Service Structure and disagree with the assertion that "... the creation of the service structure and thus of Group Representatives (GRs, now General Service Representatives, GSRs) leads to a quick test of what's a group and what's a meeting ..." It is left to each individual to determine whether he/she is an AA member. It is left to each two or three members to determine if they are an AA group and how they conduct their internal affairs. That's the way I read Tradition Three (long form) and Concept XII Warranty Six (pgs 74-75 - "Twelve Concepts for World Service") which are not ambiguous on the matter. As desirable as it may be (and I'd love to see every group have a GSR) there is no qualification of whether a group is a group based on it having a GSR or not or any other type of trusted group servant. In my area, 27% of our 424 groups do not have a GSR (for whatever reason). They are still AA groups and recognized as such. The only defined restriction for a group in AA's principles (Traditions and Concepts) is "no other purpose or affiliation" such as joining with Alanon to have "family meetings" or with NA to have "alcohol and drug meetings" etc., etc. In AA Comes of Age (pg 105) Bill W wrote: "... in its original 'long form,' Tradition Four (sic s.b. Three) declares: 'Any two or three gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an A.A. group, provided that as a group they have no other affiliation.'. This means that these two or three alcoholics could try for sobriety in any way they liked. They could disagree with any or all of A.A.'s principles and still call themselves an A.A. group ..." From 1962 up to 1990 the Conference went through a torturous process of attempting to define what an AA Group is which included defining terms such as "groups" "meetings" and "gatherings." In 1980/1981 the "Six-point definition of an AA group" was inserted in many literature items and in 1990 the Conference changed the definition of a group to consist of the long form of the Third and Fifth Traditions. This was changed again in 1991 (with a change to the Service Manual) that stated: "... The Long Form of Tradition Three and a section of Warranty Six, Concept 12, aptly describe what an A.A. group is: Tradition Three: 'Our membership ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism. Hence we may refuse none who wish to recover. Nor ought A.A. membership ever depend upon money or conformity. Any two or three alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an A.A. group, provided that, as a group, they have no other affiliation.' Warranty Six: '. . .much attention has been drawn to the extraordinary liberties which the A.A. Traditions accord to the individual member and to his group: no penalties to be inflicted for nonconformity to A.A. principles; no fees or dues to be levied - voluntary contributions only; no member to be expelled from A.A. - membership always to be the choice of the individual; each A.A. group to conduct its internal affairs as it wishes - it being merely requested to abstain from acts that might injure A.A. as a whole; and finally that any group of alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an A.A. group provided that, as a group, they have no other purpose or affiliation." The above remains the definition of an AA group in all AA literature that defines what a group is (last acted on by the 2000 Conference). "The AA Group" pamphlet, I believe, sows more confusion than clarity stating (pgs 10-11): "Is There a Difference Between a Meeting and a Group?" It goes on to state "Most A.A. members meet in A.A. groups as defined by the long form of our Third Tradition (see page 42). However, some A.A. members hold A.A. meetings that differ from the common understanding of a group. These members simply gather at a set time and place for a meeting, perhaps for convenience or other special situations. The main difference between meetings and groups is that A.A. groups generally continue to exist outside the prescribed meeting hours, ready to provide Twelfth Step help when needed. A.A. groups are encouraged to register with G.S.O., as well as with their local offices: area, district, intergroup or central office. A.A. meetings can be listed in local meeting lists." The above in some qualified cases makes sense but in many cases it does not and it is inconsistent with the principle that a group has the autonomy "... to conduct its internal affairs as it wishes ..." A group can have one meeting a week - that might be all they can afford to rent a meeting room (and it is all GSO asks for as one of the qualifications to be listed in the national directory as an AA group). The group may not have a GSR but they can have a "primary contact" who is a group member (that too is all GSO asks for to be listed in the national directory as an AA group). The group might not have a Central Office, Treatment Facilities or Corrections Rep but they can have individual members who take the initiative to sign up to be a contact for 12th Step calls to the local Central Office or join with other AA members to take meetings into medical and penal institutions. They may not have a Grapevine Rep but all the members may subscribe to it. I could increase the list ad infinitum. Cheers Arthur PS - trivia item: Alanon still uses the term GR for their Group Representative. - - - - From: "grault" (GRault at yahoo.com) I just don't see any source authority for Jared Lobdell's statement in his first paragraph: > a quick test of what's a group and what's a > meeting [is that] if it has a GSR or according > to the District it's in should have a GSR (or > if it's an institutional group that doesn't > have anyone available to be a GSR because the > GSR can't be a facility employee or an inmate), > it's a group. Otherwise it's a meeting. I especially don't see any authority for that statement in light of the Third Tradition. Is there any? Surely any group can choose not to have a GSR and still be an A.A. group. - - - - From: "Larry Tooley" (wa9guu at charter.net) I agree in theory buy not in fact. Usually a person who "runs" a group is the GSR, Treasurer...ad infinites. It is a poor way to do it since a business meeting should be called to elect officers. What I don't like about this is the GSB usually gets no contributions. A group that has many meetings is still the group. If somebody wants to smoke, they can go to the group's business meeting and bring it up that their meeting wants to smoke. Then the group can vote on it. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5883. . . . . . . . . . . . The Blue Book of the National Clergy Conference From: samuelmfrost . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/19/2009 2:05:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII National Clergy Conference on Alcoholism, 1960 - referred to as "The Blue Book" I am currently trying to find where I can locate the material taken from this work. Bill Wilson, in several "Ask Bill" sites, answers questions about religion, the clergy, etc. The footnotes are usually, N.C.C.A., 1960, the "Blue Book" vol. 12, 1960. Any help would be great. Sam F. - - - - From GC the moderator: The organization is now called the National Catholic Council on Alcoholism and Related Drug Problems. It was founded by Father Ralph Pfau from Indianapolis, who was the first Roman Catholic priest to get sober in AA, and was one of the four most published AA authors. See http://www.nccatoday.org/ Each year the council has a national conference, and publishes the texts of all the speeches in a volume called the Blue Book. The 58th Edition of the Blue Book (from the NCCA's 2008 Conference in New Orleans) is now available for distribution. These volumes are a gold mine of material from well known figures. There are talks not only by Bill Wilson, but also Marty Mann, Father Ed Dowling, and many other people. The best place to find copies of this series would be in the library at a Catholic university or seminary. The Indianapolis Archdiocesan Archives has a partial set, but there are also some volumes missing. - - - - From Glenn C: Fr. Ralph was ... the founder in 1949 of the National Clergy Council on Alcoholism, today called the National Catholic Council on Alcoholism and Related Drug Problems, one of the most vital and important American Catholic organizations dealing with the problem of alcoholism. The NCCA's annual publication, the Blue Book (whose 58th volume came out at the end of 2008), also provides, through a host of articles by leading figures, a detailed historical record of Catholic thought about alcoholism and recovery through the course of the past six decades. There is no body of literature even remotely equivalent coming from Protestant or Jewish sources during that period. National Catholic Council on Alcoholism: The NCCA honors Fr. Ralph Pfau as its great founder. The NCCA leader Monsignor William J. Clausen quoted from a talk which Ralph gave in 1957 in an account he gave of how the group was created: 'In talking to Father Dowling in St. Louis in 1948, Father Pfau said: "You know . . . it would be a nice thing if we could find out who else among the clergy are in AA, because I think that priests in AA feel the need to know if there are other priests in AA," Father Dowling suggested, "Why don't you have a retreat of some kind?"' Mary Darrah says that more detailed planning began as part of “an informal discussion among four priests eating hot fudge sundaes at an Indiana soda shop in 1949,” Ralph Pfau, John Dillon, Raymond Atkins, and John C. Ford. Ralph gave special credit to Fr. Dillon in particular in the foreword to the first Blue Book (the volume published by the NCCA every year, containing the text of the talks given at that year’s conference). We should also note the reference to four important bishops and archbishops, about which we will comment further along: "Early in 1949 plans for a seminar for the Clergy who are active members of Alcoholics Anonymous were made by Fr. Ralph Pfau of the Archdiocese of Indianapolis and Fr. John Dillon of the Diocese of Lafayette, Indiana .... From Aug. 23 to 25, 1949, more than 100 priests gathered at St. Joseph’s college, Rensselaer, Indiana. Their Excellencies, Archbishop Schulte, Bishop Bennett, and Bishop Cody (representing Archbishop Ritter) were in attendance." The conference has continued meeting annually since that date. Originally called the National Clergy Council (and/or Conference) on Alcoholism, it is now referred to as the “National Catholic Council on Alcoholism and Related Drug Problems, Inc.” In 2008 it became a service arm of Guest House (the treatment center for Catholic clergy and religious), using Guest House’s Lake Orion, Michigan, address. Gaining acceptance of A.A. among the Catholic hierarchy: At the time the Big Book was being written, the A.A. group had only one Catholic member whom we know of — at least in Akron or the New York area — an Irishman named Morgan Ryan from Glen Ridge, New Jersey, who had just gotten out of the asylum and had not participated in the actual writing of the book. Morgan gave one of the multilithed manuscript copies to the Catholic Committee on Publications of the Archdiocese of New York, which gave it a positive review. But this small committee certainly did not speak for the Catholic Church as a whole. Later on, Bill Wilson became friends with Monsignor Fulton Sheen. But Sheen, even though a popular radio (and later television) figure, could not have spoken for (or influenced the opinions of) the Catholic hierarchy vis-à-vis the young A.A. movement. Opposition from Cardinal McIntyre: Although the official conference-approved A.A. literature tries to give the impression of warm and widespread Catholic support for Alcoholics Anonymous from the beginning, in fact there were some members of the Catholic hierarchy who were strongly opposed to A.A. Cardinal McIntyre in Los Angeles, for example, told Fr. John Ford that he would not allow him to speak at the 3rd A.A. International which was to be held in Long Beach, California, in 1960. Fr. Ed Dowling said that when he wrote the Cardinal asking whether he would be permitted to speak, McIntyre wrote back saying that he would allow him to do so since he was not an alcoholic, but only provided that he follow the ideas set out in the pamphlet “Help Your Alcoholic Friend” by Rev. William Kenneally. In his letter to Fr. Dowling, Cardinal McIntyre said that he did not want an alcoholic priest talking; and that he objected to the disease theory of A.A. James Cardinal McIntyre, who was Archbishop of Los Angeles from 1948 until 1978, was an arch-traditionalist, as we know, who later deeply opposed many of the changes made by the Second Vatican Council (1962–1965), especially the changes in the liturgy (after he retired as archbishop and took on the duties of a parish priest at St. Basil's Church in downtown Los Angeles, he celebrated the old Tridentine Mass on its side altars as a rebellion against the new liturgy). Fr. Ralph brought in Archbishops Ritter and Schulte to support A.A.: But Fr. Ralph was a superb ecclesiastical politician, who managed to get some other very powerful members of the hierarchy on the A.A. side. He served under three bishops in Indianapolis: Bishop Joseph Chartrand, who had died in 1933, but more importantly, Bishop/Archbishop Joseph Ritter (1934-1946) and Archbishop Paul Schulte (1946-1970). It was Schulte who on Christmas Day of 1947 had released Ralph from his parish duties at Holy Cross parish in Indianapolis, and had given him a special mission where he was allowed to spend his full time as a priest working with A.A. The archbishop also inscribed his official Imprimatur on the inside front page of Fr. Ralph’s first three Golden Books: The Spiritual Side (1947), Tolerance (orig. titled Charity, 1948), and Attitudes (1949). By appearing at the first meeting of the NCCA, Archbishop Schulte helped give the participants confidence that important members of the hierarchy would give them backing in their mission. Archbishop Ritter had been transferred to St. Louis in 1946, three years after Ralph got sober, but had been impressed so favorably by the young priest, and how his life had been turned around by A.A., that he sent his then Auxiliary Bishop, John Cody, to represent him and convey his blessings also upon the NCCA. Ritter was later one of the leading reformist bishops at the Second Vatican Council in 1962–1965, and a very powerful and respected figure in the American Catholic hierarchy. (Cody was not a negligible figure himself. He later became Archbishop of Chicago and a Cardinal, of course, and although he eventually became involved in a good deal of controversy and strife, he was nevertheless an important figure within the hierarchy to have on one’s side.) We should give adequate recognition to what Fr. Pfau accomplished in starting the NCCA (and keeping it going), and in bringing in extremely high-powered ecclesiastical supporters, by the power of his charm and hard work, to support the organization. A.A. was certainly not going to be automatically accepted by the Catholic Church, once theologians and bishops began looking carefully at its principles, and could easily have ended up being officially condemned by a combination of moralistic and authoritarian forces within the church. But Ralph got a number of powerful figures supporting the A.A. cause. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5884. . . . . . . . . . . . Development of the Twelve Concepts Window Shade From: wrdjock . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/25/2009 7:51:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Is anyone familiar with the events leading up to the development of the Twelve Concepts Window shade? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5885. . . . . . . . . . . . Information about Bernard B. Smith From: wrdjock . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/25/2009 7:05:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I'm looking for information about Bernard B. Smith for a research project on the History of the Concepts. Bill refers to him as an architect of the "service structure" and I'm interested in finding out more about what specific contributions he made. Does anyone know if a biography on him was ever done? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5886. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The Irishman in the chapter on Tradition Five in the 12 and 12 From: Tom V . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/24/2009 2:57:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII If the story goes back to the very early AA period, Morgan Ryan, who was the only Roman Catholic AA member at the time the Big Book was published, had an obviously Irish last name. - - - - From: kodom2545 Do we know who the Irishman is in the chapter on Tradition Five in the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, pp. 151-154? It was a man in Towns Hospital whom Dr. Silkworth indicated as someone who might be a possible candidate for the A.A. program. God Bless, Kyle IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5887. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Group start date: how it is defined From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/21/2009 5:20:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi! Arthur As you point out, the Conference-approved pamphlet "The Group" says that "The main difference between meetings and groups is that A.A. groups generally continue to exist outside the prescribed meeting hours, ready to provide Twelfth Step help when needed. A.A. groups are encouraged to register with G.S.O., as well as with their local offices: area, district, intergroup or central office." As I understand it, the means for existing outside of "meeting hours" -- that is, to be more than simply a meeting -- is to have the service structure suggested in that pamphlet, and to link with Intergroup (by means of an Intergroup Representative) and with the General Service Structure (by means of a GSR). Hence my statement that the creation of the service structure leads to a quick test of what's a group and what's a meeting. I did not say that was AA's view -- as you well know, neither I (having studied AA) nor you (having studied AA and being an active member of the General Service Structure, as you say) can speak for AA. The "Twelve Concepts" may not be ambiguous, but the "Twelve Concepts" plus "The Group" pamphlet seem to present a certain degree of ambiguity (see also Jack Norris's attempt to distinguish between special-purpose groups, which may suffer from the "other affiliations" problem, and special-purpose meetings). I remained convinced that, if there is to be a distinction between a group and a meeting, it must lie in participation in the service structure, and the quickest test is whether there is a GSR or could be if requirements ("suggestions") for selection as GSR can be met. Of course, if a group which has two meetings says each one is a separate group, and claims the right therefore to two GSRs, presumably General Service must go along with it (I know an example in Area 59, District 36). Yes, a group is a group if it says it's a group, if you like -- that's the historical precedent, with which we as historians are concerned -- but the proof (another historical precedent for much of AA) is in the action. If it acts like a group, it's a group. If it doesn't, what's the point of saying it is one? And btw, if there are no home-group members, what is it that's a group? [P.S. -- I think NA refers to a GR, tho' here I speak under correction.]-- Jared IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5888. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Information about Bernard B. Smith From: firsthings1st . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/25/2009 3:24:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "wrdjock" wrote: > > I'm looking for information about Bernard B. > Smith for a research project on the History > of the Concepts. Bill refers to him as an > architect of the "service structure" and I'm > interested in finding out more about what > specific contributions he made. Does anyone > know if a biography on him was ever done? > Bernard B. Smith (1901 - 1970) The AA General Service Board was still called the Alcoholic Foundation when he joined it, in June 1944. His advice influenced the decision to hold the first General Service Conference, in 1951. Chairman of the Board and the Conference from January 1951 to April 1956, he was serving as first vice-chairman of the Board at the time of his death. He was an attorney, an author, and an advocate of Anglo-American understanding; for his efforts in that cause, Queen Elizabeth II awarded him a decoration. Honorary Commander of the Order of the British Empire, in October 1957. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5889. . . . . . . . . . . . First Group in Vermont and Hawaii From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/22/2009 6:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Vermont and Hawaii, from John B. ("jax760") and E.G. ("spaberlejr") - - - - From: "jax760" (jax760 at yahoo.com) January 1945 Grapevine Article - Granite Vermont Opens it Heart to AA "Joe" moved up to Vermont from New Jersey and started a group in Montpelier in October of 1944. God Bless John B - - - - From: "spaberlejr" (saberle at comcast.net) I just came across the 1st meeting in Hawaii while perusing the digital archives of the Grapevine: From the June 1944 issue (Vol. 1 No. 1) "Central Office Notes" - - - - Dec. 14, 1943 Shop----, Pearl Harbor Dear ----: You may definitely stick a pin in Honolulu on your map. Tonight we had a meeting of the entire group for the first time. There were supposed to be 7--but only 5 came. All have been sober with the help of the A.A. program for a time varying from over a month to 1 week before their first meeting. The meeting was so interesting to everyone we had trouble leaving in time to get home before curfew. And not bragging (much) I don't think there are any more intelligent 5 people in Honolulu who meet as a group than we had there tonight. . .One reason that I am so optimistic about our little group is that every one of them sought the help. There has been no evangelism, no compulsion. All of us really want to quit. . .Please don't think you're presuming to give me advice. We have not been able to contact any old members here. If ever there was a place where the blind are leading the blind, that place is Honolulu right now. We not only will accept any advice you care to give, we're begging for it. . .I have had several bitter disappointments. . .I have discovered that a desire to stop and mere knowledge of the program of A.A. are not enough. It is those of us who are really trying to put into practise the 12 steps who are succeeding. Now that we are holding meetings I feel sure that more of us will be able to put them into practise. About my own case. I have for years considered myself an agnostic. After reading the A.A. literature, especially the part about an alcoholic who wanted to get well not being able to afford the luxury of a closed mind, I began asking myself what I really believed. The more I thought and worked with others the nearer to faith I came. . .The psychiatric social worker at--Hospital, who has been trying to help me since July to quit drinking has remarked at the great change in me since I became acquainted with A.A. When I told her of my new source of strength she suggested that maybe that strength had been lying latent in me all along. I told her I didn't really know what the source of strength was, but that I did know the formula I had used to tap it, and that was humble, sincere, unselfish prayer. . . Yours in A.A., E.G. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5891. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Information about Bernard B. Smith From: wrdjock . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/25/2009 5:04:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Thanks for the info. I have the capsule version of his life. I'm looking for more in-depth information. How specifically did he advocate for the first General Service Conference? What were his thoughts? Did he have any writings which could be examined? He was also present and chairman during the period when Bill W was writing the concepts. Did he review the essays and provide advice to Bill? I also understand that Michael Alexander was a young lawyer in his law firm and that Mr. Smith had him help Bill with some of the legal aspects of the Concepts. Does anyone know if that is correct? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5892. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: First Group in Vermont From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/26/2009 9:36:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "Joe" is Joe F, of F------- Insurance. I have a copy of a letter he wrote to the guys out in Minnesota about getting Bill to one of the Camp Karephree Founders' Week celebrations, I think 1944 or 1945 (it's stuck in a book somewhere), including hiring a private plane. I think the original is in the Nicollet collections. I'd be glad to hear from anyone who has anything else on Joe F. - - - - From GC the moderator: Photographs taken at the 1946 Founders Day gathering at Kare Phree Pines, Minnesota, provided by Archivist Jim D. (Holt, Michigan) and the Lansing Archives. The four Founders Day Camping Trips held in Minnesota and organized by the Nicollet Group during the summers of 1944, 45, 46, and 47 brought together a number of well known early A.A. figures, including not only Dr. Bob but also many other early A.A. leaders from various midwestern cities. http://hindsfoot.org/mnfound1.html http://hindsfoot.org/mnfound2.html - - - - > From: "jax760" > (jax760 at yahoo.com) > > January 1945 Grapevine Article - Granite Vermont > Opens it Heart to AA > > "Joe" moved up to Vermont from New Jersey and > started a group in Montpelier in October of 1944. > > God Bless > > John B IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5893. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Development of the Twelve Concepts Window Shade From: Jocelyn . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/25/2009 8:03:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Window shade? You mean ..... the blind leading the blind ? ( sorry I could not resist ) Jocelyn IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5894. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: First AA group in the U.K. From: John Pine . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/25/2009 4:43:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The UK A.A. site http://www.alcoholics-anonymous.org.uk/geninfo/13history.htm tells this story: The Start of AA in Great Britain The venue for AA's first meeting in Great Britain was pretty classy -- London's Dorchester Hotel. Grace O, an American AA, visiting London had been asked by GSO in New York to contact several people in Britain who wanted information about AA. Amongst them were Chris B, probably the first person in England to use AA to attain sobriety, 'Canadian' Bob B, an American serviceman Sergeant Vernon W, and Norman R-W, who was still drinking. The meeting was held in Room 202 of the hotel at 8 p.m. on Monday 31st March 1947. Others attending the meeting were Tony F, an Irish airman, Flash W, an American and Pat G, a female member from California whom Grace had met on the voyage. In the same way that early American meetings had been held in members' homes meetings were held in Canadian Bob's house in Mortlake Road, Kew Gardens as well as in cafés. Progress was slow at first but when Canadian Bob visited new members Alan and wife Winnie in Bolton he informed them that they were the Bolton Group. In November 1948 the Group held its first meeting in the Millgate Hotel, Manchester. When Canadian Bob introduced Bill H to sobriety in AA our service structure expanded with Bill's office in the London Fruit Exchange providing the fellowship with a postal address (BM/AAL London WC1) and a contact number (Bishopgate 9657) available Monday to Friday 10–5. By January 1949 meetings in London were being held on Tuesdays and Thursdays at 11 Chandos Street and membership had passed the magic 100. In 1952 AA began to lease 11 Redcliffe Gardens with the Central Committee managing it as the Central Service Office. In 1970 it became the General Service Office under the management of the General Service Board. When GSO relocated to Stonebow House in York in 1986 the London Regional Telephone office remained at Redcliffe Gardens until January 1999 when it moved into the Regional Service Office (London) at Jacob House and Redcliffe Gardens passed out of AA history. Meanwhile in Scotland the Oxford Groups had an instrumental role in AA beginnings as they had in America. The wife of Philip D, an active alcoholic, attended an Oxford Group in Scotland and heard about the Groups' role in the start of AA. Philip visited America in 1948 and attended meetings before returning to Scotland and carrying the message. Forbes C got involved and meetings began in Perth, Edinburgh and Glasgow in 1949. Cathedral Road, Cardiff was the location of the first AA meeting in Wales. The meeting took place on Friday 13th April 1951 with five attendees. (Information collated from AA archives with particular reliance on Share: Alcoholics Anonymous in Great Britain The first fifty years 1947 to 1997: March 1997) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5895. . . . . . . . . . . . First AA group in Europe: Dublin, Ireland From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/25/2009 6:36:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The Dublin, Ireland Group was formed November 18, 1946. On November 1, 1946 the Dublin Evening Mail printed Father Tom Dunlea's (visiting from Australia) outline of the AA method. Conor F, visiting his homeland,from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, was set up with Dr. Moore's patient, Richard P, at St. Patrick's Hospital. The group's first meetings were held at the Country Shop in Dublin. It was the 1st group in Europe. Anne Marie Shaw-Gwirtz from Philadelphia and Captain Mike from Dublin, Ireland submitted by Shakey Mike Gwirtz Phila, Pa USA IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5896. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Information about Bernard B. Smith and Michael Alexander From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/27/2009 4:08:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I can't tell you much about Bernard Smith's thoughts, etc., but I can tell you from personal conversations with Michael Alexander that MA worked with Bill in developing the Concepts, though he seems to me to be (characteristically) undervaluing his contributions. I think he may have been the one (or at least one) who suggested the relevance of Tocqueville's DEMOCRACY IN AMERICA, though (again) he played down his importance in my conversations with him. Unless I've missed something (I'm out of touch with GSO), he's still alive and active at Trustees' Weekends and the Conference, and would be available and might be willing to be asked a question or two. - - - - > From: wrdjock@yahoo.com > Subject: Re: Information about Bernard B. Smith > > Thanks for the info. I have the capsule > version of his life. I'm looking for more > in-depth information. > > How specifically did he advocate for the first > General Service Conference? > > What were his thoughts? > > Did he have any writings which could be > examined? > > He was also present and chairman during the > period when Bill W was writing the concepts. > Did he review the essays and provide advice > to Bill? > > I also understand that Michael Alexander was > a young lawyer in his law firm and that Mr. > Smith had him help Bill with some of the legal > aspects of the Concepts. Does anyone know if > that is correct? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5897. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: First AA meeting in Los Angeles From: Charles Knapp . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/27/2009 12:30:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello, There has always been some cloud of controversy about the founding of AA in Los Angeles. Kaye Miller, non-alcoholic, claimed that 1st meeting that was held in her home on December 19, 1939 not only did not die out before Mort J. started the Cecil Hotel meeting, but there were 2 meetings going at that same time. That first meeting only met in her home for about 2 weeks and she went to Honolulu. The meeting moved to Barney H.'s home in Glendale. Then back to her house on Gower in Hollywood in February 1940 when she returned. In a letter she wrote to Bill W dated February 8, 1947 she is recapping the early history as she remembered. In that letter she writes :"The very first meeting that Mort attend in LA he attend at my house on Gower street in Hollywood. I had gone to Honolulu and returned in the mean time. I know it was in April 1940 because it was a sort of double barrel affair, because it was a celebration of Johnny Howe birthday so it was about the 14th of April. Mort called me and I was so very happy to hear the voice of another sober alkie and so now we has someone else to tell their story at our meetings." In this same letter she claimed that in February 1940 Lee[T.] started the group that became the Pasadena Home Group. Kaye was writing this letter to Bill because it was about this time period when the history of AA in LA was beginning to get a little cloudy. The letter not only went to Bill but to several of the pioneers of AA in LA. A carbon copy of this letter is in the Area 9 Archives repository in Riverside CA. Again in February 1951 this letter resurfaced because facts were becoming even more distorted. Bill W. came to LA to help with the election of the 1st delegate to the general Service Conference. At one of the meetings that weekend, Mort was given the credit for starting AA in Los Angeles. It seems the group of early members that saw the LA's history the same way Kaye did, were upset and it caused a great deal of controversy. Clyde D (future Area 5 Delegate) was circulating her original letter asking Secretaries to read it at their meetings There is another letter that was circulated by a member names Bud that also debunked some of the facts that came out at that meeting. But I guess it all died down without any changes in their history. The little booklet of How AA Came To LA that was written by the Southern California Archives Committee in 1986 was nicely done. I am sure the LA Central archives had some of these same letters that I have seen from Kaye and the others members concerning the early history. So I am not sure why their version also differs. Their version even names the author of the "Lone Endeavor" as Peter C. Kaye's letter in 1946 named him as Pat C. I truely believe this history was done mostly by information found on tapes and not hard documentation. Oh by the way in that 1946 letter she stated Pat C had been going to meetings again and was doing well. A couple years ago I was privilege to go to the GSO Archives in New York and do some research on the history of Area 9. While there I did find some interesting information on this subject. I saw at least 2 letters from Kaye to Bill just before the book, AA Comes Of Age, was published pleading with him to correct the book's version of the history of how AA got started in LA. She pleaded with him to give some of the earlier members some of the credit as well as Mort. But it seemed Bill only corrected Street names and a couple smaller facts but left out some of the facts Kaye wanted added.. One last version that I found was in the February 1952 Grapevine. This entire issue is dedicated to AA in Los Angeles and San Francisco. If you read AA Comes of Age version of how AA started in LA and this article, it is two different versions of the same story. This version is also more along what Kaye was saying. I served as the Area 9 Archivist from 1996 to beginning of 2009. For almost 12 years I tried to get into the archives at the LA Central Office and was told it was a closed archives. Just before I left California restrictions were lifed and members are now able to go into that archives. Members can only go in during regular business hours Monday through Friday. Due to my work schedule I was never able to get by to do any research.. Maybe some archives committee or concerned members can go do some research and maybe rewrite the history of how AA really came to LA. I am sure somewhere within all of the different versions is how it really happened. Personally I would like to think it will be closer to Kaye's version. Hope this helps Charles from Wisconsin --- On Tue, 7/14/09, Charles Grotts wrote: From: Charles Grotts Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] First AA meeting in Los Angeles To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, July 14, 2009, 7:18 PM In Los Angeles our AA meeting directory says that the first meeting in L.A. took place on December 19, 1939 but that meeting died out. The first meeting that lasted was started on either the last Friday in March or the 1st Friday in April, 1940, according to Mort Joseph, who organized it. In a talk given in 1975, he said he never could remember which Friday it was. That was at the Cecil Hotel in downtown Los Angeles, which still exists. It was called "The Old Mother Group." After moving to several locations, it eventually died out too. History pamphlet: http://www.lacoaa. org/HOW%20AA. pdf [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5898. . . . . . . . . . . . First AA meeting in Quebec: the one in Montreal January 1945? From: anonymousseau . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/26/2009 12:38:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Could the first meeting in Quebec be Montreal? These May 1951 Grapevine articles ... "Sunday Morning, Dec. '44 Began the Montreal Miracle" and "The Montreal Story." Jack was in Chicago at the time he got the message from Dick during Christmas time 1944. When Jack went back to Montreal he was put in contact with Dave (B?) who had been in correspondence with New York AA and struggling to start a meeting in this city for nearly a year. Their first meeting together was sometime in January 1945. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5899. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Group start date: how it is defined From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/27/2009 11:04:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Arthur S., Tim T., and Jon Markle - - - - From: "Arthur S" (ArtSheehan at msn.com) Jared on this one I guess we'll have to do the old friendly "agree to disagree." There are two things though I find interesting: 1. By the definition of "a group vs a meeting" you advocate, none of the early groups would qualify as a group 2. In a July 1946 Grapevine article titled "The Individual In Relation to A.A. as a Group" Bill W wrote: "... Yet Point Three in our A.A. Tradition looks like a wide-open invitation to anarchy. Seemingly, it contradicts Point One. It reads, 'Our membership ought to include all who suffer alcoholism. Hence we may refuse none who wish to recover. Nor ought A.A. membership ever depend on money or conformity. Any two or three alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an A.A. Group'. This clearly implies that an alcoholic is a member if he says so; that we can't deny him his membership; that we can't demand from him a cent; that we can't force our beliefs or practices upon him; that he may flout everything we stand for and still be a member ..." [Here's the part I find most interesting] "... In fact, our Tradition carries the principle of independence for the individual to such an apparently fantastic length that, so long as there is the slightest interest in sobriety, the most unmoral, the most anti-social, the most critical alcoholic may gather about him a few kindred spirits and announce to us that a new Alcoholics Anonymous Group has been formed. Anti-God, anti-medicine, anti-our Recovery Program, even anti-each other-these rampant individuals are still an A.A. Group if they think so! ..." I rest my case. Cheers Arthur - - - - From: Tim T. (pvttimt at aol.com) I've always thought that a simple explanation is that a group is registered with GSO and has a group number. ???? A meeting is not registered. Occam's razor anyone? Tim T., an alky. - - - - From: Jon Markle (serenitylodge at mac.com) All that means absolutely nothing to most people, ya know. The only explanation that makes any sense, or has any practical reality is that the difference between a meeting and a group is simple: A meeting is not registered. A group is registered. That's it. Simple. They both function in the same way. The rest is simply an exercise in semantics, as far as I can see. And AA's will argue 'till pigs fly over semantics! Most groups I'm familiar with, haven't got a clue what this much detail means. Nor do they care, in reality. Too much organization at this level and AA looses it's meaning for most people . . . except those who get off, get their jollies on "control issues" and obsess over the nitty gritty details of running things. Such is NOT the AA that the average alcoholic is familiar with. Neither do they (I) wish to have much to do with such emphatically declared guidelines. All groups remain autonomous. Many groups simple ignore, or do not care to subscribe to 12 concepts. And there are many who do not even subscribe to the suggested 12 traditions. They still remain AA groups, because they say they are and have no affiliation with any other process. They exist to carry the message of AA to the next alcoholic. They do not care about all this other bother. So . . . I don't understand your post in that context. But, I also do not particularly care to understand it either. Too much organization simply makes "us" sick, in my experience. Hugs for the trudge. Jon (Raleigh) 9/9/82 - - - - Original Message from: J. Lobdell Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 Hi! Arthur As you point out, the Conference-approved pamphlet "The Group" says that "The main difference between meetings and groups is that A.A. groups generally continue to exist outside the prescribed meeting hours, ready to provide Twelfth Step help when needed. A.A. groups are encouraged to register with G.S.O., as well as with their local offices: area, district, intergroup or central office." As I understand it, the means for existing outside of "meeting hours" -- that is, to be more than simply a meeting -- is to have the service structure suggested in that pamphlet, and to link with Intergroup (by means of an Intergroup Representative) and with the General Service Structure (by means of a GSR). Hence my statement that the creation of the service structure leads to a quick test of what's a group and what's a meeting. I did not say that was AA's view -- as you well know, neither I (having studied AA) nor you (having studied AA and being an active member of the General Service Structure, as you say) can speak for AA. The "Twelve Concepts" may not be ambiguous, but the "Twelve Concepts" plus "The Group" pamphlet seem to present a certain degree of ambiguity (see also Jack Norris's attempt to distinguish between special-purpose groups, which may suffer from the "other affiliations" problem, and special-purpose meetings). I remained convinced that, if there is to be a distinction between a group and a meeting, it must lie in participation in the service structure, and the quickest test is whether there is a GSR or could be if requirements ("suggestions") for selection as GSR can be met. Of course, if a group which has two meetings says each one is a separate group, and claims the right therefore to two GSRs, presumably General Service must go along with it (I know an example in Area 59, District 36). Yes, a group is a group if it says it's a group, if you like -- that's the historical precedent, with which we as historians are concerned -- but the proof (another historical precedent for much of AA) is in the action. If it acts like a group, it's a group. If it doesn't, what's the point of saying it is one? And btw, if there are no home-group members, what is it that's a group? [P.S. -- I think NA refers to a GR, tho' here I speak under correction.]-- Jared IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5900. . . . . . . . . . . . Houston S., Sterling S., and Jim M. From: ckbudnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/30/2009 12:54:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I'm curious if anyone has any information on some members of Alcoholics Anonymous from Frankfurt and Lexington, Kentucky who were instrumental in forming and/or supporting a 12-step group for addicts at the US Public Health Hospital in Lexington, KY. In Feb. 1947 Houston Sewell helped start what was known then as Addicts Anonymous. The group eventually began publishing a newsletter called The Key. I've seen three copies of the Key (Feb. 1959, Fall 1963 and Fall 1964). The 1959 and 1963 copie show Houston S. as a sponsor. Starting in 1963 you begin to see Sterling S. and Jim M. Two copies of the Key had a mailing address for a Jim Music in Lexington, KY. I'm curious about any information folks have about these individuals and the very significant service work they did. Thanks, Chris B. Raleigh, NC IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5901. . . . . . . . . . . . The A.A. Group From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/30/2009 8:20:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Can someone please verify what it says below (if anyone have a version of this pamphlet prior to 1991). Thanks. Just Love, Barefoot Bill The 6-Point Definition of an AA Group from the 2/1990 version of the pamphlet "The A.A. Group": 1. All members of a group are alcoholics and all alcoholics are eligible for membership. 2. As a group they are fully self-supporting. 3. A group's primary purpose is to help alcoholics recover through the Twelve Steps. 4. As a group they have no outside affiliation. 5. As a group they have no opinion on outside issues. 6. As a group, their public relations policy is based on attraction rather than promotion, and they maintain personal anonymity at the level of press, radio, TV, and film. These were taken out of the pamphlet in 1991. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5902. . . . . . . . . . . . No groups before GSO ?? From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/29/2009 11:49:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A question arises; Were none of the original groups actually groups? All the discussion about a group only being a group if it registered with General Services in New York is preposterous .There was no registration of groups (with group service number) when these original groups were formed. When did this fallacy that a group is only a group if it registers with GSO and is assigned a group number. There is AA outside of GSO. Most of the original groups formed in larger metropolitan centers and became Intergroups. The Intergroup /Central Office Service Structure came before General Service and is not included in the GSO Service Structure. That's the way they wanted it. A group can be formed and not register with GSO if it chooses to do so. All groups are autonomous. Look at the early Service Bulletins that Bill sent out. There were reports of AA in ABC and XYZ cities and no group registration numbers. The early Grapevines mentioned the additional groups being formed. Ruth Hock would get a letter from the group secretary in the "early days"saying that the group had started, how many members were in the group and where to send a book or two(prepaid) to the group secretary's address. In Phila the secretary position was rotated I think every 3 months. Phila also was the first mother group to support NY financially. Wasn't it the Alcoholic Foundation then? Maybe someone can tell us when the first group service number was assigned and how long after it was proposed did it come to be? I'm trying to maintain the same enthusiasm for AA that I had when I first came in, and as always willing to learn and be taught by those that know more than I do. I stand corrected many times on AAHL(It keeps me very humble) so please let me know if I am wrong here. It's very late at night. This is my first chance to express my thoughts on this subject and I don't want to miss out on all the fun. God bless you all, Shakey Mike IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5903. . . . . . . . . . . . Pennsylvania History and Archives Gathering: August 8, 2009 From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/31/2009 12:20:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: "Al Welch" (welch at a-1associates.com) I have been attending this for the last few years and I find that if you have interest in AA history, it is a day well spent. Everything is free and the presenters are always recognized historians. Multi-district History and Archives Gathering Saturday, August 8, 2009 Host: Lebanon District 65 of Eastern Pennsylvania Area 59 8:00 - 9:00 a.m. Registration free (donuts and coffee) OPENING REMARKS SPEAKERS AND PANELS 9:10 a.m. - 11:50 a.m. LUNCH BREAK (FREE LUNCH) SPEAKERS AND PANELS 12:50 p.m. - 4:50 p.m. CONCLUDING REMARKS 4:50 p.m. - 5:00 p.m. Speaker and events include: Jack B of North Jersey, who's working on early NY/NJ AAs including the signatories to the First BB Sold (the Ginny MacL copy at GSO). Bill L will be recording. We hope also to have new reports on the writers/editors who assisted Bill on the 2nd Edition and the 12&12 and AACOA. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5904. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: First AA group in the U.K. From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/29/2009 5:32:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII On the beginnings of AA in Scotland: For what it's worth, Philip D attended the great OG meeting in Massachusetts in June 1936 where Shep C. was present (along with Helen Wills Moody and Mrs Henry Ford) -- I don't know if he remained in touch with Shep after Shep's second divorce (his second wife was an OG member, as was the minister who married them) but it would be interesting to find out -- letters in the H. Alexander Smith Collection at Princeton might provide some kind of answer. In any case, Philip D had an AA Connection long before 1948 (tho' he may not have known it). - - - - > From: johncpine@gmail.com > Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 > > From the UK A.A. site > http://www.alcoholics-anonymous.org.uk/geninfo/13history.htm > > Meanwhile in Scotland the Oxford Groups had an instrumental role in AA > beginnings as they had in America. The wife of Philip D, an active > alcoholic, attended an Oxford Group in Scotland and heard about the Groups' > role in the start of AA. Philip visited America in 1948 and attended > meetings before returning to Scotland and carrying the message. Forbes C got > involved and meetings began in Perth, Edinburgh and Glasgow in 1949. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5905. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: The A.A. Group From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/31/2009 1:30:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The six point definition of a group was replaced in 1991 and then again in 1992 with the following Conference-approved definition (see the service Manual and The AA Group pamphlet). 1992 Conference (Literature) Advisory action: The six-point definition of an AA group be removed from all literature and replaced by the long form of Tradition Three and a section of Warranty Six, Concept XII (listed below): Tradition Three: "Our membership ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism. Hence we may refuse none who wish to recover. Nor ought AA membership ever depend upon money or conformity. Any two or three alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an AA group, provided that, as a group, they have no other affiliation." Warranty Six: "... much attention has been drawn to the extraordinary liberties which the AA Traditions accord to the individual member and to his group: no penalties to be inflicted for nonconformity to AA principles; no fees or dues to be levied-voluntary contributions only; no member to be expelled from AA - membership always to be the choice of the individual; each AA group to conduct its internal affairs as it wishes - it being merely requested to abstain from acts that might injure AA as a whole; and finally that any group of alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an AA group provided that, as a group, they have no other purpose or affiliation." Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bill Lash Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 7:21 AM To: barefootbill@optonline.net Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] The A.A. Group Can someone please verify what it says below (if anyone have a version of this pamphlet prior to 1991). Thanks. Just Love, Barefoot Bill The 6-Point Definition of an AA Group from the 2/1990 version of the pamphlet "The A.A. Group": 1. All members of a group are alcoholics and all alcoholics are eligible for membership. 2. As a group they are fully self-supporting. 3. A group's primary purpose is to help alcoholics recover through the Twelve Steps. 4. As a group they have no outside affiliation. 5. As a group they have no opinion on outside issues. 6. As a group, their public relations policy is based on attraction rather than promotion, and they maintain personal anonymity at the level of press, radio, TV, and film. These were taken out of the pamphlet in 1991. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5906. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: No groups before GSO ?? From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/31/2009 6:15:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Response to Shakey Mike: Shakey, The Intergroup/Central Office structure did not precede what is today called the General Service Office (GSO). Chronology: On August 5, 1938 the Alcoholic Foundation was created as a charitable trust. It conducted business at the office of NY member Hank P (Parkhurst) at his company Honors Dealers in Newark, NJ. In September 1938, Hank P persuaded Bill W to form Works Publishing Inc. In March 1940, the Alcoholic Foundation office moved from 17 William St Newark, NJ to 30 Vesey St in NYC. In May 1940, Works Publishing Inc was legally incorporated as a publishing arm of the Alcoholic Foundation. After publication of the Jack Alexander article of March 1941 the NY Office asked the groups and members for donations of $1 ($14 today) per member per year for support for extra staff to answer the thousands of appeals for help. This began the practice of financing what is today called the "General Service Office" from group and member donations. In the early 1940s the NY office was called either the "Headquarters" or "Central Office" or "General Office." In August 1941 Clarence S (Snyder) founder of AA in Cleveland and Cleveland pioneer Abby G (Goldrick) helped start AA's first Central Office. The office also published AA's first newsletter, the "Cleveland Central Bulletin" in October 1942. In June, 1944 Volume 1, No. 1 of the Grapevine was published. The New York City Central Office (they call it "Inter-Group") was founded in 1946. In April 1946 the AA Grapevine was legally incorporated as the second publishing arm of the Alcoholic Foundation. In an April 1947 paper, Bill W recommended a General Service Conference and renaming the "Alcoholic Foundation" to the "General Service Board of Alcoholics Anonymous." In 1953 the Alcoholic Foundation changed the corporate name of "Works Publishing" to "Alcoholics Anonymous Publishing." The 1954 Conference approved renaming the "Alcoholic Foundation" to the "General Service Board of Alcoholics Anonymous." The 1958 Conference recommended that the name "General Service Headquarters" be changed to "General Service Office." The 1959 Conference approved renaming "Alcoholics Anonymous Publishing" to "Alcoholics Anonymous World Services" (AAWS). Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Shakey1aa@aol.com Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 2:50 AM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Cc: Shakey1aa@aol.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] No groups before GSO ?? A question arises; Were none of the original groups actually groups? All the discussion about a group only being a group if it registered with General Services in New York is preposterous .There was no registration of groups (with group service number) when these original groups were formed. When did this fallacy that a group is only a group if it registers with GSO and is assigned a group number. There is AA outside of GSO. Most of the original groups formed in larger metropolitan centers and became Intergroups. The Intergroup /Central Office Service Structure came before General Service and is not included in the GSO Service Structure. That's the way they wanted it. A group can be formed and not register with GSO if it chooses to do so. All groups are autonomous. Look at the early Service Bulletins that Bill sent out. There were reports of AA in ABC and XYZ cities and no group registration numbers. The early Grapevines mentioned the additional groups being formed. Ruth Hock would get a letter from the group secretary in the "early days"saying that the group had started, how many members were in the group and where to send a book or two(prepaid) to the group secretary's address. In Phila the secretary position was rotated I think every 3 months. Phila also was the first mother group to support NY financially. Wasn't it the Alcoholic Foundation then? Maybe someone can tell us when the first group service number was assigned and how long after it was proposed did it come to be? I'm trying to maintain the same enthusiasm for AA that I had when I first came in, and as always willing to learn and be taught by those that know more than I do. I stand corrected many times on AAHL(It keeps me very humble) so please let me know if I am wrong here. It's very late at night. This is my first chance to express my thoughts on this subject and I don't want to miss out on all the fun. God bless you all, Shakey Mike ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5907. . . . . . . . . . . . Markings From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/31/2009 5:40:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Markings -- the AA Archival Newsletter -- is now only available online. This was done to cut costs. Look at the latest issue at http://www.aa.org/en_pdfs/f-151-markings_summer-2009.pdf The AA.org site has a lot of material on it that pertains to AA History. The Jack Alexander pamphlet is a good example. Maybe some day they will have all the non-classified (non-restricted) materials in GSO archives available online, with Trustee approval, for legitimate archival use. I wouldn't want to see it all over the internet. That would sure be useful to a lot of us. One way to accomplish this is to contact your delegate and demand that OUR archives should be available to us online. This is possible now. We are in the 21st Century. What a topic this would make at the NAW this summer in Calif... See You There, Shakey Mike Gwirtz Phila, Pa USA IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5908. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: No groups before GSO ?? From: Lee Nickerson . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/31/2009 5:19:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Lee Nickerson, Kimball Rowe, and Kevin Short - - - - From: "Lee Nickerson" (snowlilly12 at yahoo.com) This "real" group thing is just an exercise in statistics, fantasy and wishful thinking. When I was printing the Maine State meeting book we had over 700 meetings on the list. Granted, a small portion of them were "Mother" groups that held multiple meetings but there were well over 650 different groups in the state. GSO listed Maine at that time as having slightly over 400 groups. So according to the real group formula, nearly 40% of the groups didn't exist. - - - - From: "Kimball ROWE" (roweke at msn.com) June 10, 1935 Dr Bob's first day of permanent sobriety and the birth of our Society (Big Book) June 26, 1935 Bill D sober's up resulting in A.A.'s first group Nov 1, 1944 First Meeting of two alcoholics in Salt Lake City Utah (Delbert P and Owen L) Dec 3, 1944 The Salt Lake Tribune publishes an article announcing AA coming to Utah and a short interview with Owen L. The article listed both the Salt Lake and Ogden PO Box numbers. It drew enough inquiries to cause a group to form. Dec 19, 1994 First active AA group formed in Utah (more than 2 members). The meeting took place in Salt Lake City. Owen L was elected Secretary. AA used June 26, 1935 (three or more) Utah uses Dec 19, 1944 (three or more) So, regardless what the tradition says, it appears that Webster was correct, 2 is a pair and 3 or more is a group [having a unifying relationship and able to sustain a structure]. This is the same standard that Alcholholics Anonymous used in announcing it's first group (Bill Bob Bill). Now there are three types of groups discussed in our service literature, the basic group, the registered group and the home group (these are not synonymous). But they all have one thing in common As far as I can tell, all groups are service providers, providing an avenue toward sobriety, whether it be a time and a place to meet, or a date and time to access a hospital or institution, etc. In anycase, the group provides a service where a meeting is what happens between "Hi, my name is" and "Amen." Basic Group - has no effective voice in AA, has no GSR but host meetings or other activites related to sobiety. Regeristed Group - has an effective voice in AA through the GSR voting at district and area functions. Home Group - A Regeristerd Group with Group Membership (all home groups, by definition, are regisered and have a GSR, page S24 "the home group is where they [AA members] participate in busines meetings and cast their vote as part of the group conscience of the Fellowship as a whole) Each AA member may belong to many groups, but have only one home group (one member one vote concept). - - - - From: "Kevin Short" (kshort at oxmicro.com) I believe groups are "listed" (not registered) by GSO. It is a service GSO provides -- by no means a requirement. God bless, Kevin - - - - Original message from Shakey Mike: > A question arises; Were none of the original groups actually groups? All > the discussion about a group only being a group if it registered with > General Services in New York is preposterous .There was no registration of groups > (with group service number) when these original groups were formed. When > did this fallacy that a group is only a group if it registers with GSO and > is assigned a group number. There is AA outside of GSO. Most of the > original groups formed in larger metropolitan centers and became Intergroups. The > Intergroup /Central Office Service Structure came before General Service > and is not included in the GSO Service Structure. That's the way they wanted > it. A group can be formed and not register with GSO if it chooses to do so. > All groups are autonomous. > Look at the early Service Bulletins that Bill sent out. There were > reports of AA in ABC and XYZ cities and no group registration numbers. The > early Grapevines mentioned the additional groups being formed. Ruth Hock > would get a letter from the group secretary in the "early days"saying that the > group had started, how many members were in the group and where to send a > book or two(prepaid) to the group secretary's address. In Phila the > secretary position was rotated I think every 3 months. Phila also was the first > mother group to support NY financially. > Wasn't it the Alcoholic Foundation then? > Maybe someone can tell us when the first group service number was > assigned and how long after it was proposed did it come to be? > I'm trying to maintain the same enthusiasm for AA that I had when I > first came in, and as always willing to learn and be taught by those that > know more than I do. I stand corrected many times on AAHL(It keeps me very > humble) so please let me know if I am wrong here. It's very late at night. > This is my first chance to express my thoughts on this subject and I don't > want to miss out on all the fun. > God bless you all, > Shakey Mike > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5909. . . . . . . . . . . . The new Indianapolis Photo History Booklet is now online From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/3/2009 1:20:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dear AA History Lovers, We now have two versions of the new Indianapolis Photo History Booklet on a website: Confidential -- for AA members only http://www.aamuncie.org/files/Indianapolis_AA_History_July_2009.pdf Public version - last names have been deleted http://www.aamuncie.org/files/Indianapolis_AA_History_July_2009_Public.pdf In service, Bob Stonebraker Archives, District 40, Area 23 P.S. The "Confidential" designed book can also be found at www.4dgroups.org under "Downloads." Robert Stonebraker 212 SW 18th Street Richmond, IN 47374 (765) 935-0130 - - - - From GC the moderator: this is a beautiful example of a really good local history. Indianapolis was one of the 27 earliest AA groups started, AND it is a place where we know a bit about what AA was like in that city, so it is an important source for AA historians desiring to know what AA was like in the 1940's and 50's, the period during which Big Book based AA swept over the US and Canada, and then the world. (Remember that before the Big Book was published, AA had only 100 members at most, and probably no more than 40 or so members who were solidly sober and truly committed to the fellowship. The extraordinary spread of early AA and its impressive successes were based on Big Book style AA.) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5910. . . . . . . . . . . . Pennsylvania History and Archives Gathering: August 8, 2009 From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/6/2009 4:39:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII 6th Multi-District History & Archives Gathering Sponsored by District 65 Area 59 (Eastern Pennsylvania) Saturday August 8 2009 Susquehanna/Swatara Rooms, Myer Hall Elizabethtown College Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania Registration 8-9 a.m. Welcoming Remarks 9 a.m. First Presentation (Research on Early Days in NY etc. -- I) 9:15 a.m. Break 10:05 a.m. Second Presentation (Research on Early Days in NY etc. -- II) 10:15 a.m. Break 11:05 a.m. Third Presentation (Research on Early Days in NY etc. -- III) 11:15 a.m. Lunch 12:05 p.m. Fourth Presentation (Panel: The Uses of AA History) 1:05 p.m. Break 1:55 p.m. Fifth Presentation (TBA) 2:10 p.m. Concluding Remarks 3 p.m. ARCHIVES FROM NEW JERSEY, NEW YORK, PENNSYLVANIA, MARYLAND From the East on the Turnpike: Exit at Rte 222 toward Lancaster. Follow 222 to 283 toward Harrisburg. Travelling West on 283, follow directions from Lancaster below. From Harrisburg (North and West of Elizabethtown): Take Route 283. Follow 283 East (toward Lancaster) to Elizabethtown/Hershey exit and turn right at the end of the ramp onto Route 743 South. Travel south on Route 743 to Elizabethtown. Turn left at second light onto Market Street (Route 230). Go through center of town and past College Avenue and turn left onto Cedar Street. Follow directions from Cedar Street below. From Lancaster (South and East of Elizabethtown): Travel west on Route 283 to the Elizabethtown/Rheems exit. Turn left at end of exit ramp onto Cloverleaf Road and proceed one mile to Route 230. Turn right and travel west to Elizabethtown. You will be on South Market Street. Several blocks past Lemon Street, but before you get to the center of town, turn right onto Cedar Street. Follow directions from Cedar Street below. From York (South and West of Elizabethtown): Take Route 30 East. After crossing the river follow Rte 441 north. Turn right on Route 743 through Maytown and into Elizabethtown. Turn left onto So Market Street. Go several blocks and turn right onto Cedar St. Follow directions from Cedar Street below. From Lebanon: Take Rte 241 (from Rte 72 South in Lebanon) into Elizabethtown where it joins Rte 743 (first light in Elizabethtown) and then Rte 230 (second light in Elizabethtown). Turn left at second light onto Market Street (Route 230). Go through center of town and past College Avenue and turn left onto Cedar Street. Follow directions from Cedar Street below. From Cedar Street to Myer Hall: You will see the college on your left. Park in the Elizabethtown Church of the Brethren parking lot (on the right) at Mount Joy and Cedar Streets. Walk across Cedar Street to Myer Hall. Enter the Susquehanna Room by way of the ramp. I believe Bill L will be taping this in case anyone wants cd's. He's taped this in the past. He can be reached at just love audio, and as you all know he is a member of the AAHL. Yours in service, Shakey Mike Gwirtz Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5911. . . . . . . . . . . . Program for 5th AA International in Miami in 1970 From: ckbudnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/7/2009 3:59:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I'm looking for anyone who has a copy of the program from the Fifth AA International Convention, which was held in Miami in 1970. I'm looking for information in the program about a panel presentation on Narcotics Anonymous. I'm basing this search upon a letter I saw from Dr. John Norris to Major Edward Dimond dated January 6, 1970 in which he states "One of the important meetings on the Convention program will concern fellowships similar to A.A., one of which is Narcotics Anonymous." I'm curious as to whether this actually materialized. Chris B. Raleigh, NC IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5912. . . . . . . . . . . . First registered AA group in Denmark: January 1955 From: Henrik R. . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/2/2009 1:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi, The first "real" AA group in Denmark is registered as of January 1955. Before this an organization called "Ring I Ring -- Dansk AA" (Ring in ring -- Danish A.A.) had been in contact with the GSO in New York, but would not recognize the spiritual living in the AA program. Bill W. visited Denmark in 1950 Source "AA's historie I Danmark," a conference approved book (2004) in Danish about the history of Alcoholics Anonymous in Denmark. In love and service Henrik Rue IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5913. . . . . . . . . . . . Harlem BB Workshop From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/6/2009 4:09:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A salute to AA members with 55 years plus presented by the Harlem Big Book groups will take place Saturday, Aug. 15, 2009 from 11 am to 5 PM, at the William Inst.(131st & 132nd Sts) 22-25 Adam Clayton Blvd Harlem, New York lunch served, cd's available Opening remarks by Lucien N of Harlem 55 yrs plus four guest speakers (total of 285 years): ____________________ Jim C., Kerhonkson NY 56 years Liz B., Queens NY 57 years Melvin B., Toledo OH 57 years Olga M., Glenham NY 60 yrs ____________________ I've been to this group before and always a good time. There will be a sobriety countdown and it is an AA meeting. I'm not sure if it's open or closed. There will be a 7th tradition. For more info call group members posted on the flyer: Cynthia W. &18 798-9223 or Thomas W 917 701-0550 Yours in service, Shakey Mike G. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5914. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: First AA group in the U.K. -- Millgate Hotel in Manchester? From: Martin . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/8/2009 1:40:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Does anybody know where the Millgate Hotel was (or is) in Manchester, England? Martin - - - - John Pine wrote: > The UK A.A. site > http://www.alcoholics-anonymous.org.uk/geninfo/13history.htm > tells this story: > > The Start of AA in Great Britain > Progress was slow at first but when Canadian Bob visited new members Alan > and wife Winnie in Bolton he informed them that they were the Bolton Group. > In November 1948 the Group held its first meeting in the Millgate Hotel, > Manchester. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5915. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Program for 5th AA International in Miami in 1970 From: aalogsdon@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/7/2009 4:55:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The program for this event included he following: 10:30 AM - 12:30 PM Four special panels: * * * * * * * * * * * NARCOTICS ANONYMOUS: Bill G., Chairman Board of Trustees * * * * * * * * * * * -----Original Message----- From: ckbudnick I'm looking for anyone who has a copy of the program from the Fifth AA International Convention, which was held in Miami in 1970. I'm looking for information in the program about a panel presentation on Narcotics Anonymous. I'm basing this search upon a letter I saw from Dr. John Norris to Major Edward Dimond dated January 6, 1970 in which he states "One of the important meetings on the Convention program will concern fellowships similar to A.A., one of which is Narcotics Anonymous." I'm curious as to whether this actually materialized. Chris B. Raleigh, NC IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5916. . . . . . . . . . . . I Have A Dream! -- on the future of silkworth.net From: Jim M . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/7/2009 4:53:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Good day friends! I have a dream and I have had this dream for about 7 years now. Part of this dream goes back to when I was a young adult. The time has come for this dream to start becoming a reality. I knew this day would have to come! Rather than I explain it right now, right here, at this moment, please read the following email I sent out the other day and then you will have most of your answers to questions or concerns you have. I do hope to get a lot of responses from this email. Please call me at 1-336-946-1409 with any and all questions you have and we can talk about all the details on the phone. Ever Grateful, Yours in service, Jim Myers, http://www.silkworth.net/ - - - - Hello Monika! I apologize for not writing sooner. The passing of Marshall saddened me so much I didn't know how to respond to you. I was also going through a very severe depression at the time when you wrote me of the passing of Marshall. I loved and do love Marshall as a human being, especially in the area of A.A. and all his works he did in A.A. Marshall sponsored me for a brief time when I still lived in Columbia, S.C. and I know how dedicated Marshall was in following the 12 steps and 12 Traditions as well as much of his works, including his works with working with other recovering alcoholics. Though Marshall was skeptical of my site at first, he made an about face with silkworth.net and he told me how important silkworth.net was. This brings me to why I am writing you now. With your permission, I was thinking of dedicating silkworth.net to Marshall using his first name and last initial, sobriety date among other things. The thing is, is I am not a writer and if you agree with me doing this, I would need someone who knew Marshall well to write this dedication for me if you agree with allowing me to do so. It would have to be somewhat brief so that I could place the dedication of silkworth.net to Marshall on the index page of silkworth.net. I would also need permission to edit the dedication because of the layout and current content on the index page. This is where you come in. I would need you to find such a person to write this dedication to silkworth.net. This is where you ask me why. During the earlier development of silkworth.net, I knew in my heart that one day I would turn silkworth.net over to a group of sober individuals to carry on with silkworth.net if for some reason I could not. That time has come Monika. You see Monika, I have a new calling, one that I felt in my heart, most of my life, would happen one day. That calling is in the Church - a denomination I felt I would never be a part of - a Pentecostal Holiness Church. I was dedicated in a Pentecostal Church when I was an infant and have never been back since - till now. So you see, I have a lot to learn now if I am to minister the Word of God in the Pentecostal Church. So now you ask what is to happen with silkworth.net now..... After dedicating silkworth.net to Marshall and placing the dedication on the index page, I will then need to locate at least 12 sober individuals from 12 different States who have experience in web sites to carry on with silkworth.net - with no single individual being able to make changes to silkworth.net. Any changes to silkworth.net (of any kind) would have to be done by a unanimous vote - meaning all 12 individuals would have to agree together or the change in question cannot take effect. silkworth.net has become to large for any one person to work on. There would be 12 individuals working on silkworth.net instead of just one person. This will decrease the work load. They would all be volunteers and would not have a title of any kind. They would be everyday ordinary people like myself who would like to see silkworth.net's works continued and stay online. Why making changes by unanimous vote? To prevent major changes. Its been working all these years, so, why fix something that isn't broken. The way it's looking right now is all 12 individuals would have equal access to all information concerning silkworth.net, such as all accounts and passwords associated with silkworth.net. If an individual or a few individuals should take it upon themselves to make changes to silkworth.net on their own without consulting with all 12 members, they will be banned from maintaining and working on silkworth.net and the individuals who were not part of such changes will make the necessary changes, such as changing accounts information and changing all passwords associated with silkworth.net and replacing that person(s). All 12 individuals will have all files of silkworth.net on their computers and/or on cd's so that silkworth.net would never be in danger of disappearing off the Internet. I would still be their in the background in case the 12 individuals need counsel for any reason, but I would not have anything to do with maintaining, expanding, improving, making decisions, etc, etc. Eventually, I will no longer have anything to do with silkworth.net except enjoying being a visitor along with the other 100's of thousands of visitors. All of this I have written to you would have to happen fairly quickly and I know it can be done. It's not that I want to give up on silkworth.net, because I don't. It has been a great endeavor for me for 9 and a half years. If it weren't for my mother showing me how to turn on a computer about 10 years ago, there may not have ever been a silkworth.net. I will in turn be learning more and more about the faith of the Pentecostal Church. I will also be building the Church a website, putting them on the map so-to-speak. As of right now, the Church does not even have a phone number. I wish to help the Church and to help the Church attendance grow. Monika, I have come out of my severe depression, but may still have to take medication the rest of my life. I look forward to my new found freedom and look forward to helping others in what I have begun learning about. I have not felt as good as I do now in years. I owe this to Christ who sits at the right hand side of the Father, who are one and the same. I look forward to hearing from you Monika. To me, Marshall was a great man in his own right. Yours in service, Ever grateful, Jim M, http://www.silkworth.net/ - - - - From: Mlynninsc To: "Jim M" Date: Friday, May 22, 2009, 3:30 PM Jim, I am sad to say that Marshall passed this life last year (March 12). He fought an incredible battle with lung cancer, hoping he would not be a "statistic." However, it was too late. His cancer already had progressed to stage III when diagnosed. Marshall was blessed having friends by his side at all times until the end. I (we all) miss him terribly. Monika IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5917. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: I Have A Dream! -- on the future of silkworth.net From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/7/2009 2:01:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII It is suggested that anyone who disagrees stop reading where they disagree: but I believe all the members of AAHistoryLovers -- and especially those who supported the silkworth.net rescue -- have interests at stake that shouldn't be brushed aside. As an historian of AA, and a member of AAHistoryLovers who believed in the rescue of silkworth.net, I find a couple of points troubling. First of all, my work in AA history has convinced me that it is contrary to AA's traditions to name an AA enterprise, group, or meeting after an individual AA -- am I wrong? (I know silkworth.net isn't an AA enterprise, but establishing AA membership as a prerequisite for being one of the twelve running it means it isn't exactly not an AA enterprise, and naming after isn't the same as dedicating, but it's close.) Second, I believe GSO and the Archives have a policy on posthumous anonymity which would militate against anyone's dedicating an enterprise making use of GSO Archives information to any AA by full name (I don't suppose there's any problem with date of sobriety) -- am I wrong? (That could be covered by using first name and last initial, of course.) I'd be interested in hearing from someone who has run a similar website, as to whether requiring unanimous consent of twelve individuals in twelve different states on any changes (would that include additions to the available texts? repairing the platform? any alteration in software or content?) could possibly permit the website to function. Of course, Jim is concerned with the best way to do what he has determined to do, which is to be free from running silkworth.net and be available full-time to answer his call to the Pentecostal ministry, and he wants to do it rapidly. The Lord knows none of us would want to stand in the way of his Call. The silkworth website under his direction has immeasurably aided this historian, and I give him my thanks; yet it seems to me there are two questions here -- (1) dedicating the website to an individual AA by full name (not necessarily a determinative point), and (2) creating a committee of twelve requiring unanimous consent to run the website. Knowing for my sins how committees function (even if they are not committees of twelve in twelve states and requiring unanimous consent), I wonder if what's suggested will work. But maybe it's "Let go and let God" as they say in AA. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5918. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: First AA group in the U.K. -- Millgate Hotel in Manchester? From: SUSIE DIXON . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/9/2009 2:25:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Think Millgate hotel was originally in Failsworth, Manchester. Susie Dixon Archivist to North West region --- Martin wrote: > > Hi > > Does anybody know where the Millgate Hotel was > (or is) in Manchester, England? > > Martin > > - - - - > > John Pine wrote: > > The UK A.A. site > > http://www.alcoholics-anonymous.org.uk/geninfo/13history.htm > > tells this story: > > > > The Start of AA in Great Britain > > > Progress was slow at first but when Canadian Bob visited new members Alan > > and wife Winnie in Bolton he informed them that they were the Bolton Group. > > In November 1948 the Group held its first meeting in the Millgate Hotel, > > Manchester. > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5919. . . . . . . . . . . . Updated - Keeping it simple part 1 - Aug. 9, 2009 From: Jim M . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/9/2009 9:30:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII An updated version of "Keeping it simple part 1": http://www.silkworth.net/simple.html Yours in service, Ever greatful, Jim M, http://www.silkworth.net/ IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5920. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: I Have A Dream! -- on the future of silkworth.net From: allan_gengler . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/8/2009 3:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Al Gengler, Dean Collins, crescentdave, and Mitchell K. - - - - From: "allan_gengler" (agengler at wk.net) My two cents. I don't have a problem with dedicating a website to a person full name or not. Although It's a historical website about AA, I do believe the posthumous anonymity break should be followed. It is that if the family says it's OK, then it's OK, but in the spirit of humility it should be a considered anonymity break. On the other hand it is not an anonymity break if you dedicate a site to a person and DO NOT name them as a sober member of AA. Regarding unanimous 12 member voting, it is my belief it should be along the lines of GROUP CONSCIENCE, which, of course, DOES NOT mean a simple majority but more substantial unanimity (2/3 ish) with adequate acknowledgement of minority opinion. That way nothing gets railroaded and everything is given due consideration. Also it would not be a bad idea to have a rotating CHAIR who would act as the communication center, lacking any real power, along the lines of a GSR. All communications and ideas would go through the central person and a virtual on-line business meeting could be held. But it SHOULD rotate and there should be provisions for new members. Keeping it at 12 is not a bad idea. But if someone leaves, nominations should be given to replace them. That's a little more than two cents. --Al - - - - From: "Dean at ComPlanners" (dean at complanners.com) " ... I know how dedicated Marshall was in following the 12 steps and 12 Traditions. ... " Then it seems to me that "substantial unanimity" (two-thirds) would be the AA thing to do. " ... all 12 individuals would have to agree together or the change in question cannot take effect. ... " My guess is that it would be an accident if you were able to find 12 people who could make that work. Also, handing over the keys (passwords) to everything to 12 people would be a mistake. (Speaking from 11 years of experience doing web hosting, both for "normies" and AA entities and related sites.) Dean Collins Monterey Peninsula, California - - - - From: "David" (crescentdave at yahoo.com) A couple of points to ponder ... and apologies if there's more information floating about ... other than Jim's posts. 1. "Silkworth" .net IS already named after someone. I wasn't going to say this, because, of course, everyone knows this. But still-it's originally and already a site with reference to an individual. Jim's plan is to have a dedication to someone mentioned by their first name and initial (his words: "With your permission, I was thinking of dedicating silkworth.net to Marshall using his first name and last initial"). Sort of reminds me of "Dr. Bob and the Good Old Timers." So there is no "(1) dedicating the website to an individual AA by full name." 2. Silkworth.net is not an AA enterprise. Therefore there are no rules which apply. Tradition 10: "Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the A.A. name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Jim can do whatever he wants, free of AA having to say anything at all. It's an outside issue. Just like this discussion group is not bound by any rules of AA. It's not a part of AA. 3. Jim did NOT make it a requirement that this service board be composed of "friends of Bill." The wording he uses is "12 sober individuals." 4. While I think unanimity among 12 volunteers from 12 different states is a little ambitious, this is obviously a first draft. I understand that he wants to protect the site from wilfull changes ... just as AA did regarding some of its literature. From post #4839: A 1976 Conference advisory action expanded the provisions of Article 3 of the Conference Charter. It specified that any change to the Steps, Traditions or Six warranties of Article 12 of the Conference Charter, would require written approval of 75% of the registered AA Groups known to General Service Offices around the world. This Conference advisory action effectively makes any proposed change to the Steps, Traditions and Warranties a virtual impossibility (even so much as adding or removing a comma). Maybe Jim might, at some point, draw up a line of distinction between content and "site-related" issues. Finally, good luck to you Jim and thank you for all your hard work. I've used your site's resources and they've enriched my recovery. I would have been poorer off had this site not existed. - - - - From: "Mitchell K." (mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com) As far as I know Dr. Silkworth was never a member of AA and therefore, the anonymity thing doesn't apply to the use of his name. The most wonderful thing about losing my memory is that now I will always be able to discover new places, meet new people and make new friends... IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5921. . . . . . . . . . . . Spanish AA materials and History of the Podium From: juan.aa98 . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/10/2009 3:02:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I am looking for Spanish AA books and material from the 1940's, 50's, and 60's. The very first Spanish AA material came out of Mexico in 1947 translated by an Al-Anon, the Akron panphlet titled A.A. But I am also looking for the History of the Podium, widely used in AA meetings in Spanish in all of Latin America and Spanish-language meetings in the US. Where did that practice come from? Any information on either of the above will be appreciated. Juan R. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5922. . . . . . . . . . . . List of 12 step and other recovery programs From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/15/2009 3:15:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A list of all the known 12 step programs and other similar sorts of recovery programs (alcoholism, narcotics, gambling, and so on). Jim M. asked me to ask Ernie and Linda Kurtz where this list was located, and it occurred to me that there would be other members of the AAHL who might like to look at it too. It is on a website called Faces and Voices of Recovery: GO FROM THEIR HOME PAGE http://www.facesandvoicesofrecovery.org/ TO THEIR "RECOVERY RESOURCES" PAGE http://www.facesandvoicesofrecovery.org/resources/ AND THEN CLICK ON "MUTUAL SUPPORT" http://www.facesandvoicesofrecovery.org/resources/support_home.php Lora Passetti, a Chestnut Health System research manager who has studied recovery support groups for young people, works with Bill White to manage this Guide, with advice and assistance from Michael Boyle, Linda Kurtz and Keith Humphreys. -- Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5923. . . . . . . . . . . . Conversion as a social process From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/13/2009 3:52:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I've just finished reading "The Social World of Alcoholics Anonymous" by Annette Smith (Hindsfoot, 2007) http://hindsfoot.org/kas1.html http://hindsfoot.org/kas2.html in which she avers, "... the data presented illustrates for the first time how that conversion (to AA) is brought about through social integration processes, and demonstrates that success depends on social world integration." At the risk of again being accused of "revisionist speculation", historically this insight was recognised originally by Carl Jung and Bill W. In the Jung/Wilson correspondence Jung wrote, "The only right and legitimate way to such an experience (like Rowland H's) is, that it happens to you in reality and it can only happen to you when you walk on a path which leads to higher understanding. You might be led to that goal by an act of grace or though a personal and honest contact with friends, or through a higher education of the mind beyond the confines of mere rationalism. I see from your letter that Rowland H. has chosen the second way, which was, under the circumstances, obviously the best one." The "second way" is "a personal and honest contact with friends", i.e. a social process. In his essay on Tradition One in the 12+12 Bill W. wrote: "The moment Twelfth-Step work forms a group, a discovery is made - that most individuals cannot recover unless there is a group. Realisation dawns on each member that he is but a small part of a great whole; that no personal sacrifice is too great for preservation of the Fellowship. He learns that the clamour of desires and ambitions within him must be silenced whenever these could damage the group. It becomes plain that the group must survive of the individual will not." Or, in Smith's taxonomy, the newcomer evolves from "stranger" or "tourist" in AA to "insider" - helping to create the social world of recovery for those still to come. Laurie A. - - - - From the moderator: Laurie, This was an amazing coincidence (or whatever), because Annette Smith was just here in South Bend on Thursday and Friday, coming up from Naples, Florida, while Ernie Kurtz and Linda Farris Kurtz drove down from Ann Arbor, Michigan, and we all had dinner together and talked about the AA program and Annette's book and Ernie's next book that he is planning. One of the things that makes Annette's book so valuable, is that she interviews dozens of AA members and uses their words to explain how -- in particular -- shy and timid people, who are frightened and uncomfortable in groups, can learn how to work their way into the AA fellowship gradually, a little bit at a time, in non-threatening ways. The person who quietly shows up in advance to make the coffee, for example, can end up feeling just as much a member as those who are highly social "hale fellow well met" types. Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5924. . . . . . . . . . . . Annette Smith, The Social World of Alcoholics Anonymous From: bob gordon . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/15/2009 3:57:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I am a book reviewer in numerous Canadian publications and a friend of Bill and Bob. I am interested in reviewing The Social World of Alcoholics Anonymous by Annette Smith. My most recent review along these lines is of Spiritual Evolution by George E Vaillant. Any idea how I could contact Annette Smith or could you forward this e-mail to her? -- Peace, love and understanding Bob GORDON bob34g@gmail.com (bob34g at gmail.com) - - - - Message #5923 from Laurie A. (jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com) I've just finished reading "The Social World of Alcoholics Anonymous" by Annette Smith (Hindsfoot, 2007) http://hindsfoot.org/kas1.html http://hindsfoot.org/kas2.html in which she avers, "... the data presented illustrates for the first time how that conversion (to AA) is brought about through social integration processes, and demonstrates that success depends on social world integration." At the risk of again being accused of "revisionist speculation", historically this insight was recognised originally by Carl Jung and Bill W. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5925. . . . . . . . . . . . Hearts and lives? Noun or verb? From: pauguspass . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/16/2009 12:39:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In the Big Book in Chapter 2 "There is a Solution" on page 25 in The Great Fact paragraph it says, "... our Creator has entered into our hearts and lives in a way that is indeed miraculous." Do we have a consensus or feeling on whether that's "lives" as a verb or "lives" as a noun? For 19 years, I've heard it as a noun. That seems like it may have been the intent. However as a verb, it's really quite nice. This came up at a meeting the other night. Thanks. George Cleveland IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5926. . . . . . . . . . . . Arizona: Tucson, Ham B., and Mark on the Gate pamphlet From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/16/2009 9:06:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: ewilson29@cox.net (ewilson29 at cox.net) First group in Arizona: Tucson, Feb. 22, 1943, Ham B. came from Los Angeles, and his first pigeon was Frank C., a tailor. From a pamphlet called "Mark on the Gate." This pamphlet says that the Phoenix meeting started two weeks later in 1943. Does anybody from California have additional information about Ham B.? Does anybody have information about this pamphlet called "Mark on the Gate"? - - - - The title is a reference to the marks which hobos put on gates, telling other hobos about the place: a kind woman lives here, work is available here, talk religion and they'll give you food, mean dog, homeowner has a gun, fresh water and a campsite, etc., see: http://www.worldpath.net/~minstrel/hobosign.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobo - - - - From GC the moderator: Bob Pearson's unpublished A.A. World History 1985 however dates the beginnings of AA in Arizona to the previous year, that is, to 1942. Bob was a good and careful worker, and of course was extremely reliable about the history of the New York GSO and the national AA organization. But for state AA history, he had to rely on people from that state who were known to the New York office, and some of these people were more accurate than others. The only thing I know to do at this point is to give both accounts, the one in the "Mark on the Gate" pamphlet, and the one which Bob P. put together. ARIZONA: PHOENIX AND TUCSON 1942 "Frank C., in Phoenix, read the Saturday Evening Post article and wrote A.A. in New York for help. They answered that there were no groups nearby, but 'a traveler will contact you.' And an A.A. member from the East, Dave S., did so. Some months later, a permanent transplant, Percy A., arrived, and he and Frank C. began the first Phoenix meeting in late 1942. A lawyer and a railroader were the next two recruits, followed by more, and with seven members in '44, the group began meeting at the Phoenix Women's Club instead of in homes." "A.A. reached Tucson also in 1942, but in quite a different way. Ham B., a stocky, pleasant man of about 35, who had joined A.A. in his hometown of. Van Nuys, California, found himself stationed in Tucson with his wife, Marian. Although he had brought a copy of the Big Book with him, he was uneasy about leaving his home group and began seeking another alcoholic. He contacted the air base, the police, the psycho ward at the hospital, and finally the city jail. There, the desk sergeant pointed to a prisoner, Frank C., saying, 'he's a great guy, but you can't keep him sober.' A few days later, Ham saw Frank C. again in the Copper Kettle Coffee Shop, and invited him to join him for a cup of coffee. Frank was a tailor with a shop on 3rd Street and his wife had finally left him. He was ready to hear the A.A. message over that cup of coffee, and he never had another drink! In February 1943, Ham and Frank had the first registered A.A. meeting in Tucson." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5927. . . . . . . . . . . . St. Francis Prayer: put a note in the 12 and 12 about authorship? From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/15/2009 1:24:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Bill W said the St Francis prayer came from St. Francis, but the Franciscans say that the prayer came from a much later date. Has AA addressed the difference, and will they put a note in the 12&12, correcting the impression? Not coming from a Catholic background, I did not know till Mel pointed it out to me in an email. Also the AA last line does not seem to track the version from the French: "Lord, grant that I may seek rather to comfort than to be comforted --to understand, than to be understood --to love, than to be loved. For it is by self-forgetting that one finds. It is by forgiving that one is forgiven. It is by dying that one awakens to Eternal Life." Thanks, George - - - - http://wahiduddin.net/saint_francis_of_assisi.htm http://www.franciscan-archive.org/franciscana/peace.html The first known appearance of this inspiring prayer was in 1912 AD when it was published in the French magazine La Clochette. Original French Text of the Peace Prayer of St. Francis Belle prière à faire pendant la Messe Seigneur, faites de moi un instrument de votre paix. Là où il y a de la haine, que je mette l'amour. Là où il y a l'offense, que je mette le pardon. Là où il y a la discorde, que je mette l'union. Là où il y a l'erreur, que je mette la vérité. Là où il y a le doute, que je mette la foi. Là où il y a le désespoir, que je mette l'espérance. Là où il y a les ténèbres, que je mette votre lumière. Là où il y a la tristesse, que je mette la joie. Ô Maître, que je ne cherche pas tant à être consolé qu'à consoler, à être compris qu'à comprendre, à être aimé qu'à aimer, car c'est en donnant qu'on reçoit, c'est en s'oubliant qu'on trouve, c'est en pardonnant qu'on est pardonné, c'est en mourant qu'on ressuscite à l'éternelle vie. Source: La Clochette, n 12, déc. 1912, p. 285. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5928. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: First AA group - updated list August 16, 2009 From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/16/2009 9:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII We still have a lot of places missing. Can you check and see if there is an entry for your state, province, or country? Thanks! THE 50 U.S. STATES: Alabama Alaska ***Arizona: Tucson, Feb. 22, 1943 ***Arkansas: Little Rock April 19, 1940 ......(Bob Pearson's AA history gives late May 1940) ***California: San Francisco November 21, 1939 Colorado ***Connecticut: Greenwich June 16, 1939 Delaware ***Florida: Jacksonville December 1940 ......(reg. with New York June 30, 1941) Georgia ***Hawaii: Honolulu December 14, 1943 Idaho ***Illinois: Chicago (Evanston) September 21, 1939 ***Indiana: Evansville April 23, 1940 ***Iowa: Des Moines Oct 1943 Kansas Kentucky Louisiana ***Maine (disputed): Bangor claims to have ......started a meeting in 1946 (and a group with ......that name reg. with New York January 11, 1947) ......VS. Portland (reg. with NY January 7, 1947) ***Maryland: Baltimore June 16, 1940 Massachusetts ***Michigan: Detroit December 1939 ***Minnesota: Minneapolis April 1941 Mississippi ***Missouri: St. Louis October 30, 1940 Montana Nebraska Nevada New Hampshire ***New Jersey: South Orange May 14, 1939 New Mexico ***New York: New York City fall of 1935 North Carolina North Dakota ***Ohio: Akron, Dr. Bob's last drink on ......June 17, 1935; founding celebrated in Akron ......as July 4, 1935 (Bill Dotson discharged ......from Akron City Hospital) Oklahoma Oregon ***Pennsylvania: Philadelphia, 1st organizational ......meeting February 28, 1940 (Jimmy Burwell had ......arrived in Philly on February 13; he formed the ......Philadelphia Mother Group on March 6, 1940 Rhode Island ***South Carolina: Spartanburg September 15, 1944 ......(or Columbia in late November 1944) South Dakota Tennessee ***Texas: Houston February 1940; 1st meeting ......March 15, 1940 at the Houston YMCA ***Utah: Salt Lake City December 19, 1944 ***Vermont: Montpelier October of 1944 ***Virginia: Richmond 1941 (their first group ......started on June 6, 1940, but was based on the ......"drinking only beer" idea and soon fell apart) ***Washington State: Seattle April 19, 1941 ***West Virginia: Charleston March 1, 1942. ***Wisconsin: Waunakee (along with Madison) ......had 20 members as of October 1, 1940 ......(Milwaukee's group began on May 1, 1941) Wyoming ***Washington D.C.: October 28 or 29, 1939 (acc. ......to page 31 of their intergroup history) THE 10 CANADIAN PROVINCES: ***Alberta: Edmonton June 18, 1945 British Columbia Manitoba New Brunswick Newfoundland and Labrador ***Nova Scotia: New Glasgow January 2, 1946 ***Ontario: Toronto January 13, 1943 ......(the first A.A. group in Canada) Prince Edward Island ***Quebec: Montreal January 1945 Saskatchewan WORLD: ***Australia: 1945, 1st outside Northern America !!! ......(1st Big Book received in Australia 1942) ***Ireland: Dublin November 18, 1946, 1st in Europe!!! ***UK (United Kingdom): ......England: London, the March 31, 1947 meeting ......at the Dorchester Hotel was the 1st UK group ......followed by Manchester with nearby Bolton ......in November 1948 ......Scotland: Perth, Edinburgh and Glasgow 1949 ......Wales: Cardiff April 13, 1951 ***Denmark: 1st registered group January 1955 ......("Ring I Ring -- Dansk AA" already existed, ......and had been in contact with the New York GSO, ......but rejected the spiritual aspect of the program) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5929. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: St. Francis Prayer: put a note in the 12 and 12 about authorship? From: victoria callaway . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/16/2009 9:48:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The 12 x 12 doesn't say who the author of the prayer was but I grew up Catholic and recognized it as the St. Francis Prayer. But I would like to know where and in what literature did Bill say the prayer came from St. Francis? Peace vicki - - - - From GC the moderator: In the 12 and 12, in the chapter on Step Eleven, it says: "First let's look at a really good prayer. We won't have far to seek; the great men and women of all religions have left us a wonderful supply. Here let us consider one that is a classic." "Its author was a man who for several hundred years now has been rated as a saint. We won't be biased or scared off by that fact, because although he was not an alcoholic he did, like us, go through the emotional wringer. And as he came out the other side of that painful experience, this prayer was his expression of what he could then see, feel, and wish to become:" "'Lord, make me a channel of thy peace--that where there is hatred, I may bring love--that where there is wrong, I may bring the spirit of forgiveness ....'" etc., etc. - - - - Original message from: Baileygc23@aol.com Sent: Saturday, August 15, 2009 Bill W said the St Francis prayer came from St. Francis, but the Franciscans say that the prayer came from a much later date. Has AA addressed the difference, and will they put a note in the 12&12, correcting the impression? Not coming from a Catholic background, I did not know till Mel pointed it out to me in an email. Also the AA last line does not seem to track the version from the French: "Lord, grant that I may seek rather to comfort than to be comforted --to understand, than to be understood --to love, than to be loved. For it is by self-forgetting that one finds. It is by forgiving that one is forgiven. It is by dying that one awakens to Eternal Life." Thanks, George - - - - http://wahiduddin.net/saint_francis_of_assisi.htm http://www.franciscan-archive.org/franciscana/peace.html The first known appearance of this inspiring prayer was in 1912 AD when it was published in the French magazine La Clochette. Original French Text of the Peace Prayer of St. Francis Belle prière à faire pendant la Messe Seigneur, faites de moi un instrument de votre paix. Là où il y a de la haine, que je mette l'amour. Là où il y a l'offense, que je mette le pardon. Là où il y a la discorde, que je mette l'union. Là où il y a l'erreur, que je mette la vérité. Là où il y a le doute, que je mette la foi. Là où il y a le désespoir, que je mette l'espérance. Là où il y a les ténèbres, que je mette votre lumière. Là où il y a la tristesse, que je mette la joie. Ô Maître, que je ne cherche pas tant à être consolé qu'à consoler, à être compris qu'à comprendre, à être aimé qu'à aimer, car c'est en donnant qu'on reçoit, c'est en s'oubliant qu'on trouve, c'est en pardonnant qu'on est pardonné, c'est en mourant qu'on ressuscite à l'éternelle vie. Source: La Clochette, n 12, déc. 1912, p. 285. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5930. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: St. Francis Prayer: put a note in the 12 and 12 about authorship? From: Glenn F. Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/17/2009 2:36:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The point which George was making in Message #5927, as I understand it, is that one clause of the original French version has been left out of the English version in the 12 + 12. Here is the original French text of the St. Francis Prayer as given in http://wahiduddin.net/saint_francis_of_assisi.htm http://www.franciscan-archive.org/franciscana/peace.html compared with the English translation in the 12 + 12 on page 99. If the texts I am using are correct, then the English of the 12 + 12 leaves out the fourth clause from the end, which in English would say "For it is by giving that one receives." ____________________________________________ Seigneur, faites de moi un instrument de votre paix. Lord, make me a channel of thy peace Là où il y a de la haine, que je mette l'amour. --that where there is hatred, I may bring love Là où il y a l'offense, que je mette le pardon. --that where there is wrong, I may bring the spirit of forgiveness Là où il y a la discorde, que je mette l'union. --that where there is discord, I may bring harmony Là où il y a l'erreur, que je mette la vérité. --that where there is error, I may bring truth Là où il y a le doute, que je mette la foi. --that where there is doubt, I may bring faith Là où il y a le désespoir, que je mette l'espérance. --that where there is despair, I may bring hope Là où il y a les ténèbres, que je mette votre lumière. --that where there are shadows, I may bring light Là où il y a la tristesse, que je mette la joie. --that where there is sadness, I may bring joy. Ô Maître, que je ne cherche pas tant Lord, grant that I may seek rather à être consolé qu'à consoler, to comfort than to be comforted à être compris qu'à comprendre, --to understand, than to be understood à être aimé qu'à aimer, --to love, than to be loved. car c'est en donnant qu'on reçoit, ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? c'est en s'oubliant qu'on trouve, For it is by self-forgetting that one finds. c'est en pardonnant qu'on est pardonné, It is by forgiving that one is forgiven. c'est en mourant qu'on ressuscite à l'éternelle vie. It is by dying that one awakens to Eternal Life. - - - - In Message #5927, Baileygc23@... wrote: > > Bill W said the St Francis prayer came from > St. Francis, but the Franciscans say that the > prayer came from a much later date. > > Has AA addressed the difference, and will > they put a note in the 12&12, correcting the > impression? > > Not coming from a Catholic background, I did > not know till Mel pointed it out to me in an > email. > > Also the AA last line does not seem to track > the version from the French: > > "Lord, grant that I may seek rather > to comfort than to be comforted > --to understand, than to be understood > --to love, than to be loved. > For it is by self-forgetting that one finds. > It is by forgiving that one is forgiven. > It is by dying that one awakens to Eternal Life." > > Thanks, George > > - - - - > > http://wahiduddin.net/saint_francis_of_assisi.htm > > http://www.franciscan-archive.org/franciscana/peace.html > > The first known appearance of this inspiring > prayer was in 1912 AD when it was published in > the French magazine La Clochette. > > Original French Text of > the Peace Prayer of St. Francis > > Belle prière à faire pendant la Messe > > Seigneur, faites de moi un instrument de votre paix. > Là où il y a de la haine, que je mette l'amour. > Là où il y a l'offense, que je mette le pardon. > Là où il y a la discorde, que je mette l'union. > Là où il y a l'erreur, que je mette la vérité. > Là où il y a le doute, que je mette la foi. > Là où il y a le désespoir, que je mette l'espérance. > Là où il y a les ténèbres, que je mette votre lumière. > Là où il y a la tristesse, que je mette la joie. > > Ô Maître, que je ne cherche pas tant > à être consolé qu'à consoler, > à être compris qu'à comprendre, > à être aimé qu'à aimer, > car c'est en donnant qu'on reçoit, > c'est en s'oubliant qu'on trouve, > c'est en pardonnant qu'on est pardonné, > c'est en mourant qu'on ressuscite à l'éternelle vie. > > Source: La Clochette, n 12, déc. 1912, p. 285. > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5931. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Millgate Hotel in Manchester From: Joseph Nugent . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/8/2009 2:11:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Millgate Newark Nottinghamshire NG24 4TU United Kingdom Joe (jumpinjoe1 at gmail.com) - - - - On Sat, Aug 8, 2009, Martin wrote: > Hi > > Does anybody know where the Millgate Hotel was > (or is) in Manchester, England? > > Martin > > - - - - > > John Pine wrote: >> The UK A.A. site >> http://www.alcoholics-anonymous.org.uk/geninfo/13history.htm >> tells this story: >> >> The Start of AA in Great Britain > >> Progress was slow at first but when Canadian Bob visited new members Alan >> and wife Winnie in Bolton he informed them that they were the Bolton Group. >> In November 1948 the Group held its first meeting in the Millgate Hotel, >> Manchester. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5932. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Spanish AA materials and History of the Podium From: aalogsdon@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/11/2009 3:59:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have a copy of the Spanish A.A. dated 1947 Publicado por "THE ALCOHOLIC FOUNDATION, INC.' P.O. Box (Apartado Postal) No. 459 (Grand Central Annex) Nueva York 17, N.Y. E.U.A. It is an original. -----Original Message----- From: juan.aa98 Sent: Mon, Aug 10, 2009 12:02 pm I am looking for Spanish AA books and material from the 1940's, 50's, and 60's. The very first Spanish AA material came out of Mexico in 1947 translated by an Al-Anon, the Akron panphlet titled A.A. But I am also looking for the History of the Podium, widely used in AA meetings in Spanish in all of Latin America and Spanish-language meetings in the US. Where did that practice come from? Any information on either of the above will be appreciated. Juan R. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5933. . . . . . . . . . . . This page in silkworth.net should be looked at from to to time From: Jim M . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/11/2009 3:53:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This page should be checked from time to time for updates due to fine-tuning of preparing silkworth.net ready for maintaining of, working on, continuation of, as a result of your input and/or concerns: http://www.silkworth.net/simple.html This link will not be posted again. Open it and create a temporary short cut to your desk top for easy viewing on ocassion. There are 2 people, as of now, who are ready to begin work with silkworth.net. Yours in service, Ever greatful, Jim M, http://www.silkworth.net/sitemap.html - - - - From: "Ben Humphreys" (blhump272 at sctv.coop) Now I will add my two cents. I remember reading somewhere in the AA literature that anonmity does not extend beyond death. Furthermore, Silkworth was not even an alcoholic. I agree that we do not name groups after people. Ben Humphreys IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5934. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Spanish AA materials and History of the Podium From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/11/2009 11:11:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Most probably, the very first Spanish AA materials came out of Cleveland, Ohio and translated by Dick Perez in the early 1940's. Dick began to translate the Big Book into Spanish pretty much just after he got sober. Dick was of Mexican ancestry so I guess the first Spanish AA material did, in a way, come out of Mexico. - - - - On Mon, 8/10/09, juan.aa98 wrote: I am looking for Spanish AA books and material from the 1940's, 50's, and 60's. The very first Spanish AA material came out of Mexico in 1947 translated by an Al-Anon, the Akron panphlet titled A.A. But I am also looking for the History of the Podium, widely used in AA meetings in Spanish in all of Latin America and Spanish-language meetings in the US. Where did that practice come from? Any information on either of the above will be appreciated. Juan R. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5935. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: First AA group - updated list August 16, 2009 From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/17/2009 3:45:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This list gives the first UK AA group as: London, England 31 March 1947 at the Dorchester hotel. In fact that was only the first AA meeting (as far as we know). AA Great Britain's own history records: "At the first AA meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous in 1947 there were eight people present, brought together by a visiting American lady (Grace Oursler). Five of these had been in contact with the Foundation of AA in the USA and the visitor contacted them on her arrival. The other two had been chance meetings and an invitation followed to join the others at the Dorchester hotel... An advert in the Financial Times followed... From then on there were various meetings which were held in a variety of places: cinemas, cafes, restaurants and homes. In 1948 the first London group began holding meetings at Chandoes Street, London, (emphasis added) and in December a group met in Manchester..." (From Share and Share Alike, the book published by Great Britain General Service Board to mark AA's 60th anniversary in the UK in 2007, which I compiled and edited). Canadian Bob, one of the AA's who attended the meeting at the Dorchester hotel, recalling those early days, wrote: "We had until then followed American practice and ended meetings with the Lord's Prayer. One man seemed always to reach 'Amen' before others were past the '... forgive us our trespasses'. Therefore, and because some of the few recited without enthusiasm or not at all, I suggested the shorter 'Serenity, Courage and Wisdom' invocation to close the meetings. This has probably proved to be a happy change because some years later when asked to take a Chandos Street meeting I asked fellow members to follow the American tradition for this one November evening. Probably too insensitive to note that consternation reigned supreme I was later to learn that several tongues wagged with indignant violence - 'What right did he think he had to tamper with our time-honoured usage'?" Laurie A. - - - - From: glennccc@sbcglobal.net Subject: Re: First AA group - updated list August 16, 2009 WORLD: ***Australia: 1945, 1st outside Northern America !!! ......(1st Big Book received in Australia 1942) ***Ireland: Dublin November 18, 1946, 1st in Europe!!! ***UK (United Kingdom): ......England: London, the March 31, 1947 meeting ......at the Dorchester Hotel was the 1st UK group ......followed by Manchester with nearby Bolton ......in November 1948 ......Scotland: Perth, Edinburgh and Glasgow 1949 ......Wales: Cardiff April 13, 1951 ***Denmark: 1st registered group January 1955 ......("Ring I Ring -- Dansk AA" already existed, ......and had been in contact with the New York GSO, ......but rejected the spiritual aspect of the program) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5936. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: First AA group - updated list August 16, 2009 From: Stephen Gentile . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/17/2009 9:59:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Ohio does not have a group. Kings school number one would be a fine start. There was not a group just because Dr. Bobv had his last drink not Bill Dotson. If these dates are Group dates then NJ should be using Montclair and so on.... - - - - From: glennccc@sbcglobal.net Subject: Re: First AA group - updated list August 16, 2009 ***New Jersey: South Orange May 14, 1939 ***Ohio: Akron, Dr. Bob's last drink on ......June 17, 1935; founding celebrated in Akron ......as July 4, 1935 (Bill Dotson discharged ......from Akron City Hospital) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5937. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: St. Francis Prayer: put a note in the 12 and 12 about authorship? From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/17/2009 11:35:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The semi-reflexive "on ressuscite" is probably better translated as "one awakens" than as "one resurrects [oneself]" or even "one is reborn" -- and at least "one awakens" is a common translation for the prayer. As noted, the history of the prayer is pretty clearly set forth by the Franciscans on their website. And as far as a note as to the actual authorship -- well, as an historian, I don't think it's important to "update" what Bill wrote -- it was generally thought of at least as a "Prayer attributed to St Francis" and he thought of it as by St Francis -- and after all, AA doesn't alter the text of the 12&12 to put the Washingtonians one hundred and sixty-five years ago (or even a hundred and fifty years ago) rather than a hundred years ago. - - - - > Original message from: Baileygc23@aol.com > Sent: Saturday, August 15, 2009 > > Bill W said the St Francis prayer came from > St. Francis, but the Franciscans say that the > prayer came from a much later date. > > Has AA addressed the difference, and will > they put a note in the 12&12, correcting the > impression? > > Not coming from a Catholic background, I did > not know till Mel pointed it out to me in an > email. > > Also the AA last line does not seem to track > the version from the French: > > "Lord, grant that I may seek rather > to comfort than to be comforted > --to understand, than to be understood > --to love, than to be loved. > For it is by self-forgetting that one finds. > It is by forgiving that one is forgiven. > It is by dying that one awakens to Eternal Life." > > Thanks, George > > - - - - > > http://wahiduddin.net/saint_francis_of_assisi.htm > > http://www.franciscan-archive.org/franciscana/peace.html > > The first known appearance of this inspiring > prayer was in 1912 AD when it was published in > the French magazine La Clochette. > > Original French Text of > the Peace Prayer of St. Francis > > Belle prière à faire pendant la Messe > > Seigneur, faites de moi un instrument de votre paix. > Là où il y a de la haine, que je mette l'amour. > Là où il y a l'offense, que je mette le pardon. > Là où il y a la discorde, que je mette l'union. > Là où il y a l'erreur, que je mette la vérité. > Là où il y a le doute, que je mette la foi. > Là où il y a le désespoir, que je mette l'espérance. > Là où il y a les ténèbres, que je mette votre lumière. > Là où il y a la tristesse, que je mette la joie. > > Ô Maître, que je ne cherche pas tant > à être consolé qu'à consoler, > à être compris qu'à comprendre, > à être aimé qu'à aimer, > car c'est en donnant qu'on reçoit, > c'est en s'oubliant qu'on trouve, > c'est en pardonnant qu'on est pardonné, > c'est en mourant qu'on ressuscite à l'éternelle vie. > > Source: La Clochette, n 12, déc. 1912, p. 285. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5938. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Hearts and lives? Noun or verb? From: John Lee . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/17/2009 10:10:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From John Lee and Alex H. - - - - From: John Lee (johnlawlee at yahoo.com) A NOUN, NOT A VERB: "Lives", as used on page 25, is a plural noun. If it was a verb, there would be a comma after "hearts." CREATOR VS. HIGHER POWER: Also of interest here: the word "Creator" is used twelve times in the basic text, whereas "Higher Power" is only used twice. I've seldom heard members refer to their "Creator" in the course of a meeting. The politically-correct "Higher Power" has supplanted "God" in the vocabularly of many members, even though it's only used twice in the basic text [as a synonym for God]. I often mention that there's a solution, cleverly hidden in a chapter called, "There Is A Solution." John Lee Pittsburgh "take the Steps, you'll be contacted" - - - - From: Alex H (ah1270 at sbcglobal.net) George Cleveland (pauguspass) wrote: > In the Big Book in Chapter 2 "There is a Solution" on page 25 in The Great Fact paragraph it says, "... our Creator has entered into our hearts and lives in a way that is indeed miraculous." > Do we have a consensus or feeling on whether that's "lives" as a verb or "lives" as a noun? Well... "lives" must be a noun. If you quote the entire sentence, the grammar makes the usage clear. Here is the whole quote: "The central fact of our lives today is the absolute certainty that our Creator has entered into our hearts and lives in a way which is indeed miraculous." If "lives" was a verb, grammar would require the sentence to read "The central FACTS of our lives today ARE the absolute certainty that our Creator has entered into our lives and lives in a way which is indeed miraculous." Of course that is setting aside the theological question of whether our Creator requires a miracle in order to live and related theological questions such as "If G-d lives in our hearts, is this any more or less miraculous than that G-d lives anywhere at all." It is easy to mistake my response as sarcasm so let me remove all doubt. No sarcasm. No joke. I'm serious. Alex H. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5939. . . . . . . . . . . . Alabama, Alaska, Colorado , Delaware From: t . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/17/2009 3:12:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Glenn, I thought I'd start checking some of the old Grapevines for info on the areas you don't have anything down for yet. I won't swear that this will get at the FIRST group in these states but it should at least shed some light on a bit of their early history. BTW, a lot of this Grapevine info is already in the archives for this group [the "news circuit" and "new groups" columns from 44-48] for anyone who is interested and willing to search it out. And what is not here, is now readily available from the archives at the Grapevine website. Alabama GV Jly44, in short article "Bill's Trip South" mentions Birmingham Alabama as one of 8 groups Bill and Lois visited on their trip. nice mention at end of article: " In Birmingham, besides the usual open A.A. meeting, Bill was asked to address the monthly guest-luncheon of the town's swankest luncheon-club, which had already contracted to hear the Governor of Alabama on that date. The Governor, believe it or not, was put off until the next month so that the gathering could hear about Alcoholics Anonymous straight from the mouth of its First Member. Among those listening were the Mayor of Birmingham, the ex-Governor of Alabama, and several members of Congress. They'd come to hear Bill talk, not the other way 'round! " GV Dec45, in the column "AA's Country Wide News Circuit" mentions : " In Birmingham, Ala., the first regional A. A. convention ever held in the South went over the top with hundreds of members attending from Virginia, West Virginia, North and South Carolina, Louisiana, Georgia, Florida, Kentucky, Tennessee, Mississippi and Alabama." GV Feb46, in "New Groups" column mentions "Anniston and Cherokee, Alabama" GV Oct46, in "New Groups" column mentions "ALABAMA—Piedmont and Safford." GV Nov46, in "New Groups" column mentions ALABAMA — Birmingham (Woodlawn East Group), Tuscaloosa (Veterans Hospital), Tuskegee." GV Dec46, in "New Groups" column mentions "ALABAMA—Gadsden; Tuscaloosa, Box 304." GV Jly47, in "New Groups" column mentions "ALABAMA — Eufaula." GV Oct47, in "New Groups" column mentions "ALABAMA—Brewton, Fairhope and Wetumpka." GV Apr48, in "New Groups" column mentions "ALABAMA—Lanett." GV May48, in "New Groups" column mentions "ALABAMA—Troy." GV Jly48, in "New Groups" column mentions "ALABAMA—Huntsville; Sheffield." GV Aug48" in "New Groups" column mentions "ALABAMA — Decatur, North Alabama Group; Dothan, Wiregrass A.A. Group." Alaska GV Aug45, in "AA's Country-Wide News Circuit" column mentions: "The wilds of Alaska have been penetrated by A. A. Well, not exactly the wilds, for Alaska's first group is in Skagway—a town known historically as the landing place of large quantities of supplies and thousands of people during the 1897-98 "Klondike Rush" to reach the gold mines in the upper (Canadian) Y u k o n . . . . " GV Dec46, in "New Groups" column mentions "ALASKA—Anchorage." GV Jan47, in "AA's Country-Wide News Circuit" column mentions: "Alaska Thawing Out.—How A.A. is beginning to flourish in Anchorage, Alaska, in spite of a frontier atmosphere and bad weather is related in letters from an Army officer at Ft. Richardson. A woman who had been a member of a group in the States made arrangements before her return in August for a notice to be placed in the Anchorage paper when "Lost Week-End" was to be shown. The officer and another man got together on it, arranged for the use of a Sunday school room, helped to cut lumber and line it, and contacted others. Classified ads have been run every night and letters have been pouring in. At least 10 members formed the nucleus of a group which is attacking a big field, complete with lots of liquor, high prices, 30 to 40 below temperatures, and other rough and ready conditions." GV June47, in "New Groups" column mentions "ALASKA—Juneau." GV Feb48, in "New Groups" column mentions "ALASKA—Anchorage" GV Feb48, has a short article" "Anchorage, Alaska Now Boasts a Group From Anchorage, Alaska I wish to inform The A.A. Grapevine that a new group was formed in Anchorage, Alaska, one month ago (November), composed of former members from different groups in the States. We have had several newcomers already and have plans for club rooms in the near future. Our address is P. 0. Box 551, Anchorage, Alaska. This country certainly needs A.A. in the worst way. Anchorage has a population of about 15,- 000 and over 80 drink-dispensing establishments —14 in one block on the main street!—J.R.B." GV June48, in "New Groups" column mentions "ALASKA—Fairbanks." GV Jly48, in article, "Groups Form World-Wide Chain of A. A. Philosophy" it lists: "ALASKA Anchorage—P.O. Box 551 Juneau—Totem Club P.O. Box 982 Seward—Contact P.O. Box 459 (Grand Central Annex) New York 17, N. Y." GV Jly48, in column "News Circuit of A. A. Groups" it mentions: "Large Turnover—Only two members of the Anchorage, Alaska, Group have lived in the territory for more than five years. The membership of the little group is therefore made up of roving A.A.s, many of them construction workers." Colorado GV Feb46, in "New Groups" column mentions "Center, Colorado." GV Mar46, in "A.A.'s Country-Wide News Circuit" column it mentions: "The two Colorado Springs, Colo., groups, now five years old, have a membership of over 40; other Colorado groups are in Pueblo, Cannon City, Salida, and Gunnison." GV Apr47, in "New Groups" column mentions "COLORADO—Greeley." GV June47, in "New Groups" column mentions "COLORADO—Denver (Home Group No. 5) ; Fort Collins." GV Oct47, in "New Groups" column mentions "COLORADO—-Pike's Peak Group (Colorado Springs)." GV Feb48, in "New Groups" column mentions "COLORADO—Grand Lake" GV Apr48, in "New Groups" column mentions "COLORADO—Denver (Group No. 2)." GV Feb48, in "New Groups" column mentions "COLORADO—Denver, Group #7." Delaware GV Jan45, in "A.A.s COUNTRY-WIDE NEWS CIRCUIT" column: "Columnist William P. Frank of the Wilmington, DELAWARE, Journal is typical of the favorable reaction of most newspapermen to A. A. He writes: "If the drink problem worries you—and you want to know something about kicking Old Man Alcoholism in the face, why not attend the public meeting of A. A. tonight in the Delaware Academy of Medicine. And if you have friends who are all tangled up with alcohol and can't get rid of the old devil, you ought to go there, too— and learn for yourself what this organization is doing. " Frank comments on the members' sense of humor as one of the interesting features of A. A." GV Mar45, in "A.A.s COUNTRY-WIDE NEWS CIRCUIT" column: "Dr. G. H. Gehrmann, medical director of the DuPont Company, a guest speaker of the Wilmington, Delaware, group, frankly admitted that A.A. "has a lot to teach the medical profession," as well as industry." GV Apr45, in "A.As COUNTRY-WIDE NEWS CIRCUIT" column: "Can anything be done for the valuable employee whose drinking is out of control? To some employers this is still a baffling question. The Delaware A. A. groups have distributed a booklet, "What About the Alcoholic Employees?" to personnel directors in organizations throughout the state. The booklet contains a reprint of the chapter in the A. A. book describing the experiences of an employer in dealing with alcoholism." GV Nov45, in "A.As COUNTRY-WIDE NEWS CIRCUIT" column: "Wilmington, Del., A. A. s had the largest crowd yet at the open meeting in the DuPont Community Y. M. C. A., with borough officials, representatives of several churches, and executives of the DuPont plants attending . . . . Speakers from Wilmington and Philadelphia addressed the new Perms Grove, N. J., group at their first open meeting . . . . " GV Apr47, in "A.A.s COUNTRY-WIDE NEWS CIRCUIT" column: "A.A. Benefits Community. — Members of the Wilmington, Del., Group heard a leading industrialist and the head of the medical department of the duPont company praise the efforts of the organization as a contribution to industrial stability and happiness in the home when the annual dinner meeting was held recently. Dr. G. H. Gehrmann, the medical director, was quoted at considerable length in newspaper accounts of the meeting in one Wilmington paper while another carried an editorial headed "Manifold Benefits" saying in part "both for the industries concerned and the individuals affected it is obvious that the gains have been impressive." A further report from Wilmington goes on to say that A.A. was part of the program during a four-day conference of company physicians from all over the country and that the two local company psychiatrists work very closely with the group. Founded about three years ago with the help of the Philadelphia group, Wilmington A.A.s have an outstanding record of community cooperation. Their operation includes a rotating committee for managing group affairs with keen participation by women members. Besides three regular meetings a week the activities committee arranges for visits to the Delaware State Hospital twice a month and there is always a car load to visit at Dover each week. Plenty of social affairs are scheduled and the wives hold separate closed meetings and prepare coffee for the social hour afterward." GV June47, in "New Groups" column mentions: "DELAWARE — Laurel; Lewes (Lewes-Rehoboth Beach Groups). GV Aug47, in the "News Circuit" column: "Fly to Anniversary Dinner—The Lewes- Rehoboth, Del., Groups were well represented at the 13th anniversary dinner in Cleveland, two members from Rehoboth and two from Berlin, Md., flying there in the plane of one of the members. They reported royal treatment after going through some threatening weather on the crosscountry hop. One of the men, a former paratrooper, said be enjoyed it, though, as he didn't have to jump." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5940. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: the start of AA in Great Britain From: David Jones . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/17/2009 3:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Personal Ads Alcoholism: A small body of anonymous ex-sufferers place themselves at the disposal of any who require help. The offer is quite gratuitous. Write Box N334, Financial Times, 72 Coleman Street, EC2. This matter-of-fact and unobtrusive notice, which appeared in the personal columns of the Financial Times on the 9th June, 1947, marked the arrival in the UK of Alcoholics Anonymous and enshrined in one unremarkable paragraph two of its fundamental and revolutionary principles. AA members keep their sobriety by working with still-suffering alcohlics and it costs nothing. The Start of AA in Great Britain The venue for AA's first meeting in Great Britain was petty classy---London's Dorchester Hotel. Grace O, an American AA, visiting London had been asked by GSO in New York to contact several people in Britain who wanted information about AA. Amongst them were Chris B, probably the first person in England to use AA to attain sobriety, 'Canadian' Bob B, an American serviceman Sergeant Vernon W, and Norman R-W, who was still drinking. The meeting was held in Room 202 of the hotel at 8 p.m. on Monday 31st March 1947. Others attending the meeting were Tony F, an Irish airman, Flash W, an American and Pat G, a female member from California whom Grace had met on the voyage. In the same way that early American meetings had been held in members' homes meetings were held in Canadian Bob's house in Mortlake Road, Kew Gardens as well as in cafés. Progress was slow at first but when Canadian Bob visited new members Alan and wife Winnie in Bolton he informed them that they were the Bolton Group. In November 1948 the Group held its first meeting in the Millgate Hotel, Manchester. When Canadian Bob introduced Bill H to sobriety in AA our service structure expanded with Bill's office in the London Fruit Exchange providing the fellowship with a postal address (BM/AAL London WC1) and a contact number (Bishopgate 9657) available Monday to Friday 10--5. By January 1949 meetings in London were being held on Tuesdays and Thursdays at 11 Chandos Street and membership had passed the magic 100. In 1952 AA began to lease 11 Redcliffe Gardens with the Central Committee managing it as the Central Service Office. In 1970 it became the General Service Office under the management of the General Service Board. When GSO relocated to Stonebow House in York in 1986 the London Regional Telephone office remained at Redcliffe Gardens until January 1999 when it moved into the Regional Service Office (London) at Jacob House and Redcliffe Gardens passed out of AA history. Meanwhile in Scotland the Oxford Groups had an instrumental role in AA beginnings as they had in America. The wife of Philip D, an active alcoholic, attended an Oxford Group in Scotland and heard about the Groups' role in the start of AA. Philip visited America in 1948 and attended meetings before returning to Scotland and carrying the message. Forbes C got involved and meetings began in Perth, Edinburgh and Glasgow in 1949. Cathedral Road, Cardiff was the location of the first AA meeting in Wales. The meeting took place on Friday 13th April 1951 with five attendees. God bless Dave > > > This list gives the first UK AA group as: London, England 31 March > 1947 at the Dorchester hotel. In fact that was only the first AA > meeting (as far as we know). AA Great Britain's own history records: > "At the first AA meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous in 1947 there were > eight people present, brought together by a visiting American lady > (Grace Oursler). Five of these had been in contact with the Foundation > of AA in the USA and the visitor contacted them on her arrival. The > other two had been chance meetings and an invitation followed to join > the others at the Dorchester hotel... An advert in the Financial Times > followed... From then on there were various meetings which were held > in a variety of places: cinemas, cafes, restaurants and homes. In 1948 > the first London group began holding meetings at Chandoes Street, > London, (emphasis added) and in December a group met in Manchester..." > > (From Share and Share Alike, the book published by Great Britain > General Service Board to mark AA's 60th anniversary in the UK in 2007, > which I compiled and edited). > > Canadian Bob, one of the AA's who attended the meeting at the > Dorchester hotel, recalling those early days, wrote: "We had until > then followed American practice and ended meetings with the Lord's > Prayer. One man seemed always to reach 'Amen' before others were past > the '... forgive us our trespasses'. Therefore, and because some of > the few recited without enthusiasm or not at all, I suggested the > shorter 'Serenity, Courage and Wisdom' invocation to close the > meetings. This has probably proved to be a happy change because some > years later when asked to take a Chandos Street meeting I asked fellow > members to follow the American tradition for this one November > evening. Probably too insensitive to note that consternation reigned > supreme I was later to learn that several tongues wagged with > indignant violence - 'What right did he think he had to tamper with > our time-honoured usage'?" > > Laurie A. > > - - - - > > From: glennccc@sbcglobal.net > Subject: Re: First AA group - updated list August 16, 2009 > > WORLD: > ***Australia: 1945, 1st outside Northern America !!! > ......(1st Big Book received in Australia 1942) > ***Ireland: Dublin November 18, 1946, 1st in Europe!!! > ***UK (United Kingdom): > ......England: London, the March 31, 1947 meeting > ......at the Dorchester Hotel was the 1st UK group > ......followed by Manchester with nearby Bolton > ......in November 1948 > ......Scotland: Perth, Edinburgh and Glasgow 1949 > ......Wales: Cardiff April 13, 1951 > ***Denmark: 1st registered group January 1955 > ......("Ring I Ring -- Dansk AA" already existed, > ......and had been in contact with the New York GSO, > ......but rejected the spiritual aspect of the program) > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5941. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: St. Francis Prayer: put a note in the 12 and 12 about authorship? From: Stephen Aberle . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/17/2009 5:18:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Stephen Aberle and Baileygc23 - - - - From: Stephen Aberle (saberle at comcast.net) Actually, I think the more important point George was raising (aside from the translation) is that St Francis *did not write the prayer* and the Franciscans have acknowledged this in a recent New York Times article. Are there plans to update the 12 & 12 with any kind of a footnote to this effect? - - - - From: Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com) The literature still seems to point to St. Francis as the author. If St. Francis can be dismissed as the author, who is the person that went through the emotional ringer like us? Why is this line different? We may be able to accept the book as infallible, but a new comer or a suffering alcoholic may be knowledgeable and sceptic as Bill W. and Dr Bob was. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5943. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: St. Francis of Assisi Prayer From: Jim M . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/17/2009 3:51:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Not sure if the following has been posted yet or not: 3 links from silkworth.net http://www.silkworth.net/aa/stfrancis.html http://www.silkworth.net/aa/stfrancis_b.html http://www.silkworth.net/aa/stfrancis_c.html In the last of these three links, the following information is given: The Origin of the Peace Prayer of St. Francis* by Dr. Christian Renoux, Associate Professor of the University of Orleans, France Original Text of the Peace Prayer of St. Francis Belle prière à faire pendant la Messe Seigneur, faites de moi un instrument de votre paix. Là où il y a de la haine, que je mette l'amour. Là où il y a l'offense, que je mette le pardon. Là où il y a la discorde, que je mette l'union. Là où il y a l'erreur, que je mette la vérité. Là où il y a le doute, que je mette la foi. Là où il y a le désespoir, que je mette l'espérance. Là où il y a les ténèbres, que je mette votre lumière. Là où il y a la tristesse, que je mette la joie. Ô Maître, que je ne cherche pas tant à être consolé qu'à consoler, à être compris qu'à comprendre, à être aimé qu'à aimer, car c'est en donnant qu'on reçoit, c'est en s'oubliant qu'on trouve, c'est en pardonnant qu'on est pardonné, c'est en mourant qu'on ressuscite à l'éternelle vie. Source: La Clochette, n° 12, déc. 1912, p. 285. Origin of this Prayer The first appearance of the Peace Prayer occurred in France in 1912 in a small spiritual magazine called La Clochette (The Little Bell). It was published in Paris by a Catholic association known as La Ligue de la Sainte-Messe (The Holy Mass League), founded in 1901 by a French priest, Father Esther Bouquerel (1855-1923). The prayer bore the title of 'Belle prière à faire pendant la messe' (A Beautiful Prayer to Say During the Mass), and was published anonymously. The author could possibly have been Father Bouquerel himself, but the identity of the author remains a mystery. The prayer was sent in French to Pope Benedict XV in 1915 by the French Marquis Stanislas de La Rochethulon. This was soon followed by its 1916 appearance, in Italian, in L'Osservatore Romano [the Vatican's daily newspaper]. Around 1920, the prayer was printed by a French Franciscan priest on the back of an image of St. Francis with the title 'Prière pour la paix' (Prayer for Peace) but without being attributed to the saint. Between the two world wars, the prayer circulated in Europe and was translated into English. Its has been attributed the first time to saint Francis in 1927 by a French Protestant Movement, Les Chevaliers du Prince de la Paix (The Knights of the Prince of Peace), founded by Étienne Bach (1892-1986). The first translation in English that we know of appeared in 1936 in Living Courageously, a book by Kirby Page (1890-1957), a Disciple of Christ minister, pacifist, social evangelist, writer and editor of The World Tomorrow (New York City). Page clearly attributed the text to St. Francis of Assisi. During World War II and immediately after, this prayer for peace began circulating widely as the Prayer of St. Francis, specially through Francis Cardinal Spellman's books, and over the years has gained a worldwide popularity with people of all faiths. For more information : see the book by Dr. Christian Renoux, La prière pour la paix attribuée à saint François : une énigme à résoudre, Paris, Editions franciscaines, 2001, 210 p. : 12.81 euros + shipping (ISBN : 2-85020-096-4). -- Order From: Éditions franciscaines, 9, rue Marie-Rose F-75014 Paris. Author's Note: Dr. Christian Renoux is continuing his research on the propagation of this prayer, and is looking for new information about its publication in English between 1925 and 1945, and in all other languages between 1912 and today. If you have such information, please contact him at contacted at this email address: Christian.Renoux@univ-orleans.fr The Franciscan Archive wishes to thank Dr. Renoux for permission to publish the Original Text of this very popular Prayer and the history of its origin. *From The Franciscan Archive http://www.franciscan-archive.org/ Yours in service, Ever greatful, Jim M, http://www.silkworth.net/ IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5944. . . . . . . . . . . . Beginning of AA in Colorado: Denver From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/19/2009 2:06:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: "John Michael" (mike80110 at yahoo.com) I have included information for Denver, CO below. I'm not certain if this was the first meeting for Colorado but it appears to be the first meeting in Denver - the state's capitol and largest city. The information was published in a small booklet called "The History of Alcoholics Anonymous in the Denver Area 1941-1981" prepared by the Denver Central Office Committee in July, 1981. It states that "Available records indicate that the first official A.A. meeting in Denver was held on August 19, 1941. It was held at Sarah McP's house located at 580 Franklin Street with eleven individuals in attendance." Mike. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5945. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Tennessee and Wyoming From: t . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/18/2009 1:34:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A quick word of caution about dates: due to publication dates and delays, most of the "New Groups" mentioned in that column registered with General Service Headquarters +2-3 months before they are noted in the Grapevine column. The "News Circuit" columns reflect similar delays. Also, groups established themselves variable amounts of time before registering with General Service Headquarters. Wyoming GV Apr46, in "New Groups" column it mentions, "Rock Springs, Wyo." GV Jly46, in "New Groups" column it mentions, "WYOMING—Cheyenne." GV Jly46, in "News Circuit" column it mentions: "With help from the Denver, Colo., Group, an A.A. brunch got started in Cheyenne, Wyo. " GV Mar47, in "New Groups" column it mentions, "WYOMING—Big Horn." GV Nov47, in "New Groups" column it mentions, "WYOMING—Casper" GV Apr48, in "New Groups" column it mentions, "WYOMING—Elk Mountain." Tennessee GV Jly44, in short article "BILL'S TRIP SOUTH" Bill and Lois were guests of eight A.A. groups ... and mentions Chattanooga and Knoxville, Tennessee as among those eight. GV Feb45, in "News Circuit" column it mentions: "The four-year-old Chattanooga, Tennessee group, in a recent issue of its newspaper, The Empty Jug, tells of refusing to accept an advertisement from a business firm that had approached them on the subject. "We could use the money, but A.A. is unequivocally noncommercial." Acceptance of ads would expose them to "pressure and to the theory of obligatory back-scratching." Saldos amigos!" [this places Chattanooga group as starting in sometime in 1941] GV Feb46, in "New Groups" column it mentions, "Oak-Ridge, Tennessee" GV May46, in "New Groups" column it mentions, "TENNESSEE—Johnson City." GV May46, in "News Circuit" column it mentions: "The Memphis, Tenn., A.A.s a few month ago began making calls on the alcoholics at the West Tennessee State Hospital at Bolivar, at the request of doctors in charge. Each band of visiting A.A.s is different from the preceding one. Some of the alcoholic patients, on release from the hospital, are now beginning to get in touch with the group." GV Jun46, in "New Groups" column it mentions, "TENNESSEE—Lawrenceburg and Murfreesboro." GV Jan47, in "New Groups" column it mentions, "TENNESSEE: Athens." GV Mar47, in "New Groups" column it mentions, "TENNESSEE—Paris." GV May47, in "New Groups" column it mentions, "TENNESSEE—McMinnville." GV Jun47, in "News Circuit" column it mentions: "Birthdays Recall Growth—More than 400 persons attended the third anniversary of A.A. in Memphis, Term., at the Hotel Chisca recently. From three members in April, 1944, Memphis now has three groups, Downtown, 152 Madison, closed meeting Friday; Crosstown, Character Builders Hall, closed meeting Tuesday, and Overton Park, at the clubhouse, Monday, all sessions being at 8 o'clock. In addition there is an A.A. breakfast at Britling's on Madison Avenue, open, 9:30 A.M. Sunday; 12th Step discussion at 152 Madison, closed, 3:30 Sunday afternoons; open house, open at 8 Tuesday nights; and Questions and Answers, closed session for new members at 8 Wednesday nights. Since many of these sessions are closed, the Overton Park Group has been holding "Family Open Meetings" about once a month with local people in charge. The open meeting at the anniversary party was addressed by a well-known Des Moines, Ia., attorney, who told how be came i n to A.A. through a man whom he had prosecuted for drunkenness. In Memphis there is also considerable interest in neighboring groups throughout the region in Mississippi, Arkansas, Tennessee and even in Southern Kentucky. The Central Club room at 152 Madison is open every day from 9 A.M. until midnight for visitors, with a member in charge. With the cooperation of a physician in a nearby veterans' hospital, weekly visits are being made by Memphis A.A.s to the hospital." GV Jly47, in "New Groups" column it mentions, "TENNESSEE — Tiptonville." GV Aug47, in "New Groups" column it mentions, "TENNESSEE—Dyersburg; Overton Park Group (Memphis)." GV Oct47, in "New Groups" column it mentions, "TENNESSEE—Cleveland." GV Mar48, in "New Groups" column it mentions, "TENNESSEE — Lebanon" GV Apr48, in "New Groups" column it mentions, "TENNESSEE—Elizabethton." GV Jly48, in "New Groups" column it mentions, "TENNESSEE—Columbia." GV Aug48, in "New Groups" column it mentions, "TENNESSEE—Oak Ridge." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5946. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Georgia and Idaho From: t . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/18/2009 10:53:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII See my last post concerning the dates from these Grapevine articles. Georgia GV Jly44, in the short article on "Bill's Trip South" it mentions Atlanta GA as being one of 8 groups Bill and Lois visited GV Feb46, in the "New Groups" column it mentions LaGrange, Georgia GV June46, in the "Clip Sheet" column: "Salem, N. J., Sunbeam: "A century-old 28- room Georgian mansion, once owned by a whiskey distiller known as 'The Lord of Jericho,' opened May 1 as a home for the care and rehabilitation of alcoholics. The huge, three story red brick building, Ivy Manor, is located on 200 acres of farm and woodland, seven miles west of Bridgeton at Jericho—and seven miles from the nearest taproom. "It was purchased by a group of Philadelphia and Camden businessmen, headed by J. Robley Tucker, realtor, Camden, N. J. "The project has been endorsed by Alcoholics Anonymous, the celebrated self-help group which has aided thousands of alcoholics to permanent rehabilitation, Tucker said. 'We will call for patients by station wagon within a 100- mile radius,' Tucker added. 'But we do not want repeaters. . . . Ivy Manor may properly be looked upon as a sort of half-way house. After a patient has physically and mentally recovered, we will put him in touch with the A.A., if he so desires. From there on, it is up to him—and to them.' " GV June46, in the "News Circuit" column: "City, criminal and juvenile judges were in attendance at the third anniversary banquet of the Jacksonville, Fla.. Group. Other Florida groups represented were Daytona Beach, Gainesville, and Tampa. Georgia A.A.s came from Valdosta. Waycross. Atlanta, and Rome. A.A.s from Boston. Mass., were also present. With Jacksonville's several small group weekly meetings, new members are delighted that there are now meetings every night in the week." GV Jly46, in the "New Groups" column it mentions GEORGIA—Macon. GV Oct46, in the "New Groups" column it mentions GEORGIA—Augusta and Columbus. GV Dec46, in the "New Groups" column it mentions GEORGIA—Statesboro, Box 82. GV Mar47, in the "New Groups" column it mentions GEORGIA—Cuthbert; Manchester. GV June47, in the "New Groups" column it mentions GEORGIA—Albany, Thomaston. GV Jly47, in the "News Circuit" column: "Neighboring Groups get Together— Members of the Atlanta, Ga., Group held joint meetings with three other Georgia Groups in Griffin, LaGrange and Thomaston recently with from 20 to 30 of the Atlanta Group making each trip. In Griffin and Thomaston the meetings were held in homes of members and in LaGrange at the First Methodist church, whose pastor, Rev. Charles S. Forester, attended the Yale Clinic seminar last summer. The groups in G r i f f i n and Thomaston were both formed recently and being only about 30 miles apart, plan to alternate attendance at each other's meetings. " GV June47, in the "New Groups" column it mentions GEORGIA—Americus. GV Sept47, in the "News Circuit" column: "Georgians Get Around—Members of the Atlanta, Ga., Group have been active lately in aiding in the establishment of new groups. One member on vacation in Selma, Ala., felt the need for a group there and helped form one. Another started a group in the Lawson Veterans' Administration Hospital with the cooperation of the psychiatric staff. In answer to a request from Athens, Ga., another went there and assisted in getting a group underway. Atlanta plans to invite several of these nearby groups to conduct some of its meetings this fall and winter. GV Oct47, in the "New Groups" column it mentions GEORGIA—Athens, Cairo, LaFayette. GV Feb48, in the "New Groups" column it mentions GEORGIA—Dublin GV Aug48, an article about Atlanta's 7th anniv, titled: "They Celebrated And Talked About Drinking" from Atlanta, Ga. It was a man-sized celebration, but everyone was as sober as the proverbial judge. They talked about drinking, about some of the really big bouts they had staged, but there wasn't the faintest odor of alcohol about the place, and no one had bulging pockets. The occasion was the seventh anniversary of Atlanta's Chapter of Alcoholics Anonymous, with some 400 or 500 persons filling Taft Hall. The experiences they related—these anonymous men and women who have conquered Demon Rum—would make a confession at a revival meeting seem tame. Take Steve, for example. Steve, who hails from Washington, D. C., was the guest of honor. It was he, with the help of his wife, who founded the Atlanta group seven years ago in their basement apartment in Buckhead. "I was drunk for more than 20 years," he recounted. "My wife had tried every cure known to mankind on me, and nothing worked. In fact, one of the cures made me so drunk I was unconscious for four weeks. "We were living in Washington at that time," he continued, "and some man came in from New York to establish an A.A. group. My wife prevailed upon me to join. I did and I sobered up. it was tough going for a year but after that year I began to enjoy life, and when I was transferred to Atlanta I was determined to start an A.A. group here." The Rev. Sam, now pastor of a large North Georgia church, described some of the difficulties of launching the Atlanta group, explaining: "It was a little story in the Atlanta Constitution that led me to Steve." Bert, who now operates a home for former drunkards, said he was in Atlanta's City Stockade 105 limes for being drunk. "I guess I am the original man of distinction," he concluded. "I changed from bay rum to canned heat." Charlie, a successful Atlanta businessman, traced his reclamation to the time he asked a friend for a dollar to buy a drink and was told to go to the A.A. clubrooms, after which he could return for the money. He never came back to get the dollar." GV Aug48, in the "New Groups" column it mentions "GEORGIA—Douglas; Pearson. Idaho GV Nov45, in the "News Circuit" column: "Boise is the first town in Idaho to start a group." GV Dec46, in the "New Groups" column it mentions IDAHO—Caldwell; Moscow. GV Jan47, in the "New Groups" column it mentions IDAHO: Lewiston, Box 346. GV Mar47, in the "New Groups" column it mentions IDAHO—Anderson Dam. GV Aug47, in the "New Groups" column it mentions IDAHO—Idaho Falls. GV Mar48, in the "News Circuit" column: "A classified advertisement appearing in the paper in Jerome, Idaho, testifies to the efforts of an A.A. to found a group there. He's a former member of the New Orleans, La, Boise and Twin Falls, Idaho, Groups." GV Apr48, in the "New Groups" column it mentions IDAHO—St. Anthony. GV May48, in the "New Groups" column it mentions IDAHO—Rigby. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5947. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Kansas and Kentucky From: t . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/18/2009 11:49:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Kansas GV Mar45, "News Circuit" column mentions: "The Kansas City, Kansas, group has bought and moved into a 12-room clubhouse." GV Sept45, "News Circuit" column mentions: "The Kansas press has been having some good natured fun writing about the Topeka A.A. group and its new clubhouse. The Sunflower state has been legally dry since 1880. Today, the only legal beverages have no more than 3. 2 per cent alcoholic voltage to induce consumption. Topeka, home of 67, 833 persons, bastion of state dry laws and lawmakers, has had an A. A. group since 1943 and, says one journalist, "Adding to doubts of Topekans who have seen whiskey bottles tossed on the statehouse grounds and lying along Kansas Avenue, A. A. has now moved into the finest clubrooms in the city. " The newsmen carefully mention the fact that A. A. isn't at all interested in whiskey from a prohibition angle, that it is dedicated to the rehabilitation of alcoholics who honestly want to recover. Kansas City, Kan., is another of the groups to buy its own clubhouse. Located at 1925 North Eleventh Street, the former mansion has had partitions ripped out downstairs, reducing the once many-roomed house into a meeting hall, while upstairs four rooms remain for general use." GV Jan46, "News Circuit" column mentions: "At the first anniversary shindig of the Wichita, Kans., Group, which brought members from Kansas City, Topeka, Oklahoma City and Tulsa, guest speakers were Father Fred Mann, Catholic priest from Wichita, and the Rev. Raymond E. Dewey, a Methodist clergyman from McPherson. " GV Feb46, "New Groups" column mentions Garden City, Kansas; GV Feb46, "News Circuit" column mentions: "Kansas City, Kans., papers carried pictures of that city's A.A. hilltop clubhouse, a two-story brick structure with a Norman tower on one corner and the letters "A.A." in red and white over the door. When the old house was purchased early last spring, The plumbing was out of kilter and the plaster falling off the walls. Today it is clean and pleasant, painted and well maintained, with cooking and bathroom facilities on both floors. "Anything we have done for the house," said one of the members, "has been done with money which otherwise would have been spent on liquor. It looks to us like pretty good economics." GV Aug46, "News Circuit" column mentions: "The group at Hays, Kansas, now numbers 28 active members, which is encouraging growth for a comparatively short time, especially in a small community." GV Oct46, "New Groups" column mentions KANSAS—Spearville. GV Feb47, has an article called: Prison and Welfare Magazines Carry Articles on A.A. " Two articles on Alcoholics Anonymous have appeared in recent magazines. "Here's Looking at You!" appeared in The. New Era, a magazine devoted to developing a better understanding between the prisoner and society, while the other, "Some Aspects of A.A." was written by a member of the Indianapolis Group and appears in the fall issue of Public Welfare in Indiana. The first begins: "The infant has matured. The Leavenworth (Kansas, Federal Prison) Group of Alcoholics Anonymous has discarded its swaddling clothes to become a formidable factor in the reclamation program of the huge penitentiary. Eighty former tipplers, men who have run the gamut of riotous living to suffer social obscurity and prison sentences have now dedicated themselves to the Herculean task of 'lifting the face' permanently off the bar room floor." This statement by the secretary is followed by an endorsement by Dr. Manly B. Root, prison psychiatrist, who says, "It is just as well that you don't concern yourself with why you are alcoholics, but recognize your affliction as a fact and seek to adjust your lives accordingly." This is followed by half a dozen statements from members and an explanation by prison authorities that they have maintained a "hands off" policy. The second article explains A.A. and how it functions, with emphasis on creating better understanding on the part of laymen." GV Mar47, "New Groups" column mentions KANSAS—Coffeyville; Honor Farm Group; United States Penitentiary at Leavenworth. GV Apr47, "New Groups" column mentions KANSAS—Great Bend. GV Oct47, "New Groups" column mentions KANSAS—Mission, Salina. GV Nov47, "News Circuit" column mentions: "Scheduled for November 16 and 17, the third anniversary plans of the Wichita, Kans., Group were not complete at the time for Grapevine copy. Open house at the club rooms, 536 North Broadway, on Saturday afternoon and night with the dinner and main meeting to come Sunday afternoon are the principal plans. Good representation from groups in Kansas, Oklahoma, Missouri and Texas is expected." GV Jan48, "News Circuit" column mentions: "Wichita did it again," it is triumphantly reported from that city in Kansas with regard to the third anniversary which drew about 350 persons, representative members from eight states. Included in the two day session were speeches by the founder of the Des Moines, Ia, Group, the founder of the Amarillo, Tex., Group, a woman member, and Dr. R. M. Gouldner, prominent non-A.A. Wichita physician and surgeon who has assisted the group." GV Feb48, "New Groups" column mentions KANSAS—Argonia, Lawrence, Parsons (Lone) GV Mar48, "New Groups" column mentions KANSAS — Arkansas City, McPherson, Pratt GV Apr48, "New Groups" column mentions KANSAS—Abilene, Hutchinson. GV Aug48, "News Circuit" column mentions: "The Lawrence, Kansas Group reports a growing membership. They now have seven members. " ---------------------------------------------------------------- Kentucky GV Dec45, "News Circuit" column mentions the first regional AA convention in Birmingham AL and Kentucky is one of the states mentioned that had members in attendance. GV May46, "New Groups" column mentions KENTUCKY—Russell. GV June46, "New Groups" column mentions KENTUCKY—Ashland. GV Aug46, "New Groups" column mentions KENTUCKY—Frankfort. GV Oct46, "New Groups" column mentions KENTUCKY—Outwood, Owensboro, and Shelbyville. GV Dec46, "New Groups" column mentions KENTUCKY—Frankfort, Box 316; Fulton. GV Mar47, "New Groups" column mentions KENTUCKY—Fort Knox. GV Apr47, "New Groups" column mentions KENTUCKY—Cynthiana; 0wensboro. GV May47, "New Groups" column mentions KENTUCKY—Bowling Green. GV July47, in the "News Circuit" column it mentions: "Church Cooperates—At its 119th annual convention the Episcopal diocese of Kentucky adopted a plan to provide psychiatric treatment for alcoholics in cooperation with A.A. The new wing being constructed at Norton Memorial Infirmary, the diocesan hospital, will be given over to the program. " GV Oct47, has a short article, "Would you Believe It?" " 1 month has 30 days; 8 months — 240 days; 1 day has 24 hours; 240 days have 30 x 240 or 7,200 hours 30 members, therefore, would have 216,000 man-hours. The "24-hour" plan of A. A Will it work? Darned if I know; I won't say that it WILL but I will say, tho, that it HAS . . . with the Lexington, Kentucky Group. Although only a little over a year old this group has a total enrollment of probably 75; some have died, others, have moved away and we have lost track of them; some had their curiosity satisfied; some got their wives to stop nagging; some have reached that lowest strata and we never see or hear of them BUT we do have, we KNOW, 30 staunch and true members with an average of at least eight months of sobriety. These were not "screened"—they were the high and the low; they were the boys who acknowledged they were powerless over alcohol; who came to believe that only a Power greater than themselves could restore them to sanity; who turned their will and their lives over to the care of GOD, as they understood HIM; who made an effort to follow the teachings of the 12 Steps—AND MEANT IT. They were a lot of self-confessed, egotistical drunks. Those boys now have a record of 216,000 man-hours of sobriety BEHIND THEM. And yet each of them is only 24 hours AHEAD of a drunk BUT they are AHEAD of it and not BEHIND IT. It looks like a photo-finish but I'll take a ticket that it will show in another eight months that each of these will show himself in the "Winner's Circle" and that John Barleycorn will be given the place, or second, position. IT HAS WORKED. WILL it? Darned if I know—BUT . . . H.G.H." GV Nov47, "New Groups" column mentions KENTUCKY—Harlan, Maysville (K.O. Group) GV Feb48, "New Groups" column mentions KENTUCKY—Covington, Mayfield GV June48, "New Groups" column mentions KENTUCKY—Paducah. GV Jly48, "New Groups" column mentions KENTUCKY—Somerset. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5948. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Spanish AA materials and History of the Podium From: Bob McK. . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/17/2009 5:22:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The March 1946 issue of the Cleveland, Ohio Central Bulletin contains this article: THE BOOK IS TRANSLATED Richardo P., of the Mexican Consullate in Cleveland, and tremendously impressed with the work of AA. Has translated the entire AA book in the Spanish language, and it will soon be printed in Mexico for the benefit of its people. Ric is to be commended for this fine demonstration of the 12th step. Mentions that I have heard of this Cleveland "first" alluded that "Dick" had his wife do much (most?) of this translation work. So there an element of truth in all of the statements: that it happened (was translated) in Cleveland, happened (was printed) in Mexico, was done by an AA, and was done by an Al-Anon (although this was years before real Al-Anon started). I now thoroughly understand why historians refer to "first" as the f-word. - - - - From: Mitchell K. Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2009 Most probably, the very first Spanish AA materials came out of Cleveland, Ohio and translated by Dick Perez in the early 1940's. Dick began to translate the Big Book into Spanish pretty much just after he got sober. Dick was of Mexican ancestry so I guess the first Spanish AA material did, in a way, come out of Mexico. - - - - On Mon, 8/10/09, juan.aa98 (juan.aa98 at yahoo.com) wrote: I am looking for Spanish AA books and material from the 1940's, 50's, and 60's. The very first Spanish AA material came out of Mexico in 1947 translated by an Al-Anon, the Akron panphlet titled A.A. But I am also looking for the History of the Podium, widely used in AA meetings in Spanish in all of Latin America and Spanish-language meetings in the US. Where did that practice come from? Any information on either of the above will be appreciated. Juan R. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5950. . . . . . . . . . . . Why and how did Tradition 8 develop? From: priscilla_semmens . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/19/2009 1:41:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Why -- historically -- was this tradition developed? "Alcoholics Anonymous should remain forever nonprofessional, but our service centers may employ special workers." If I understand it correctly, I am interpreting it to say: AA members can go out into a career field because of their personal knowledge on alcoholism (and this is ok), however they should not be doing 12th Step work. We do not get paid for 12th step work. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5951. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: First AA group - updated August 19, 2009 From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/19/2009 3:21:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII We've still got a total blank for Louisiana, Massachusetts, Mississippi, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Mexico, North Carolina, North Dakota, Oklahoma, Oregon, Rhode Island, and South Dakota. Also no information at all for British Columbia, Manitoba, New Brunswick, Newfoundland and Labrador, Prince Edward Island, and Saskatchewan. Also no information on the strong tradition of Spanish-speaking AA in Mexico, etc. And India? And how about the first country with a strong Buddhist tradition, where Bill W. was so delighted to see their adaptation of the Twelve Steps to Buddhist spirituality? What country was that, and when did that happen? - - - - THE 50 U.S. STATES: ***Alabama: Birmingham group mentioned in ......July 1945 Grapevine ***Alaska: August 1945 Grapevine says first .....group in Alaska was in Skagway ***Arizona: Tucson, Feb. 22, 1943 ***Arkansas: Little Rock April 19, 1940 ......(Bob Pearson's AA history gives late May 1940) ***California: San Francisco November 21, 1939 ***Colorado: Denver, August 19, 1941 ......March 1946 Grapevine said that two Colorado ......Springs groups were five years old (so also ......founded in 1941) ***Connecticut: Greenwich June 16, 1939 ***Delaware: Wilmington mentioned in January ......1945 Grapevine ***Florida: Jacksonville December 1940 ......(reg. with New York June 30, 1941) ***Georgia: July 1944 GV mentions Atlanta; ......August 1948 GV refers to Atlanta's 7th ......anniversary, i.e., started c. 1941 ***Hawaii: Honolulu December 14, 1943 ***Idaho: Nov. 1945 GV says Boise had the ......first Idaho group ***Illinois: Chicago (Evanston) September 21, 1939 ***Indiana: Evansville April 23, 1940 ***Iowa: Des Moines Oct 1943 ***Kansas: Topeka, 1943 ***Kentucky: Bob Pearson's history says that the ......first group was formed in Louisville in June ......1941 by Jim McC. from the Indianapolis group Louisiana ***Maine (disputed): Bangor claims to have ......started a meeting in 1946 (and a group with ......that name reg. with New York January 11, 1947) ......VS. Portland (reg. with NY January 7, 1947) ***Maryland: Baltimore June 16, 1940 Massachusetts ***Michigan: Detroit December 1939 ***Minnesota: Minneapolis April 1941 Mississippi ***Missouri: St. Louis October 30, 1940 Montana Nebraska Nevada New Hampshire ***New Jersey: South Orange May 14, 1939 New Mexico ***New York: New York City fall of 1935 North Carolina North Dakota ***Ohio: Akron, Dr. Bob's last drink on ......June 17, 1935; founding celebrated in Akron ......as July 4, 1935 (Bill Dotson discharged ......from Akron City Hospital) Oklahoma Oregon ***Pennsylvania: Philadelphia, 1st organizational ......meeting February 28, 1940 (Jimmy Burwell had ......arrived in Philly on February 13; he formed the ......Philadelphia Mother Group on March 6, 1940 Rhode Island ***South Carolina: Spartanburg September 15, 1944 ......(or Columbia in late November 1944) South Dakota ***Tennessee: Chattanooga probably, c. 1941; ......July 1944 GV mentions groups in Chattanooga ......and Knoxville; February 1945 GV says the ......Chattanooga group was four years old, that is, ......c. 1941 ***Texas: Houston February 1940; 1st meeting ......March 15, 1940 at the Houston YMCA ***Utah: Salt Lake City December 19, 1944 ***Vermont: Montpelier October of 1944 ***Virginia: Richmond 1941 (their first group ......started on June 6, 1940, but was based on the ......"drinking only beer" idea and soon fell apart) ***Washington State: Seattle April 19, 1941 ***West Virginia: Charleston March 1, 1942. ***Wisconsin: Waunakee (along with Madison) ......had 20 members as of October 1, 1940 ......(Milwaukee's group began on May 1, 1941) ***Wyoming: April 1946 Grapevine mentions ......a group in Rock Springs. July 1946 Grapevine ......says "with help from the Denver, Colo., ......Group, an A.A. brunch got started in Cheyenne, ......Wyo." ***Washington D.C.: October 28 or 29, 1939 (acc. ......to page 31 of their intergroup history) THE 10 CANADIAN PROVINCES: ***Alberta: Edmonton June 18, 1945 British Columbia Manitoba New Brunswick Newfoundland and Labrador ***Nova Scotia: New Glasgow January 2, 1946 ***Ontario: Toronto January 13, 1943 ......(the first A.A. group in Canada) Prince Edward Island ***Quebec: Montreal January 1945 Saskatchewan WORLD: ***Australia: 1945, 1st outside Northern America !!! ......(1st Big Book received in Australia 1942) ***Ireland: Dublin November 18, 1946, 1st in Europe!!! ***UK (United Kingdom): ......England: London, the March 31, 1947 meeting ......at the Dorchester Hotel was the 1st UK group ......followed by Manchester with nearby Bolton ......in November 1948 ......Scotland: Perth, Edinburgh and Glasgow 1949 ......Wales: Cardiff April 13, 1951 ***Denmark: 1st registered group January 1955 ......("Ring I Ring -- Dansk AA" already existed, ......and had been in contact with the New York GSO, ......but rejected the spiritual aspect of the program) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5952. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: List of 12 step and other recovery programs From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/20/2009 1:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: Dean at ComPlanners (dean at complanners.com) The original list was given in Message 5922 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/5922 Here are some additional links to twelve step programs. (In addition to these, there are quite a few other programs that profess to use the 12 Steps, but, as far as I can tell, they are just getting started or appear to be the work of one or two individuals rather than an actual "fellowship.") Dean Collins Monterey Peninsula, California From the Online Alano Club at http://www.onlinealano.org/dirs/links_other.php Adreneline Addicts Anonymous Anorexics and Bulimics Anonymous Anti-Nutrient (Junk Food) Addicts Anonymous Artists Recovering Through the Twelve Steps (ARTS) Anonymous Chemically Dependent Anonymous Clutterers Anonymous Co-Anon Family Groups Cocaine Anonymous Co-Dependents Anonymous Compulsive Eaters Anonymous COSA (anyone affected by another person's compulsive sexual behavior) Criminals & Gang Members Anonymous Crystal Meth Anonymous Debtors Anonymous Debt-Anon Family Groups Depressed Anonymous Double Trouble in Recovery (dually diagnosed) Dual Recovery Anonymous Eating Addictions Anonymous Eating Disorders Anonymous Emotions Anonymous Families Anonymous Food Addicts Anonymous Gam-Anon (for families and friends of compulsive gamblers) Gamblers Anonymous Grey Sheeters Anonymous (compulsive overeating) HCV Anonymous HIV Anonymous Incest Survivors Anonymous Love Addicts Anonymous Manic Depressives Anonymous Marijuana Anonymous Messies Anonymous Methadone Anonymous Multiple Personality Disorder (MPD/DID) Anonymous Neurotics Anonymous Nicotine Anonymous Obsessive Compulsive Anonymous Obsessive Eaters Anonymous Online Gamers Anonymous Overeaters Anonymous Overcomers Outreach (Christian recovery support groups using the 12 Steps) Parents Anonymous (child abuse prevention) Pills Anonymous Phobics Anonymous Recoveries Anonymous Recovering Couples Anonymous S-Anon (for those affected by someone else's sexual behavior) Schizophrenics Anonymous Self Mutilators Anonymous Sex Addicts Anonymous Sexaholics Anonymous Sex and Love Addicts Anonymous Sexual Compulsives Anonymous Sexual Recovery Anonymous Sex Workers Anonymous Social Phobics Anonymous Spenders Anonymous Suicide Anonymous Survivors of Incest Anonymous Teen-Anon Workaholics Anonymous http://www.onlinealano.org/dirs/links_aa_alanon.php Agnostic AA Meetings Alcoholics Victorious (Christian) Birds of a Feather (pilots, aviation) Calix Society (Catholic) Christians in Recovery Anesthetists in Recovery International Advisory Council of Homosexual Men and Women in Alcoholics Anonymous International Doctors in Alcoholics Anonymous (health care professionals of doctorate level) International Lawyers in Alcoholics Anonymous International Pharmacists Anonymous Jewish Alcholics, Chemically Dependent Persons and Significant Others Nurses in Recovery Recovering Nurses Secular Organizations for Sobriety (non-12-Step) Veterinarians in Recovery Additional Groups (at the Self-help Clearing House, PeaceHealth.org) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5953. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: List of 12 step and other recovery programs From: John Lee . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/20/2009 2:11:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From John Lee and theammermans - - - - From: John Lee (johnlawlee at yahoo.com) In 1989 New York Magazine did a cover story on the 12-Step groups in New York City. There were 28 of them listed in the NYC phonebook. A representative from each group was interviewed. The reporter tried to interview someone from Isolators Anonymous, but the reporter's messages were not returned. [True story, I still have my copy of the magazine.] John Lee Pittsburgh - - - - From: theammermans (theammermans at yahoo.com) Wikipedia has a list with links to Twelve Step programs patterned after AA, as well as a list of Programs partially patterned after AA: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Twelve-Step_groups IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5954. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill W. and High Watch Farm From: bsa330 . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/20/2009 9:19:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi, All- I'm pretty much a lurker here. I love hearing all this history. I am very grateful for all the knowledge available here. I am wondering if anyone can point me in the direction of information regarding High Watch Farm, in Kent CT. I know Bill W. visited and even turned down an offer from Sister Francis to give the Farm to AA. I'd like to know a little more on the history of this & figure someone out there can tell me where to find it. I'm taking a group of Alateens there this weekend to the open speaker meeting (and dinner) and would love to give them some more background on the place. Thanks, everyone, I've learned so much. Dave Tanner IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5955. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: St. Francis, Bill W., and Alcoholics Anonymous From: mdingle76 . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/20/2009 7:52:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dear AAHL group: I can't help putting my 2 cents in on the topic of St. Francis and the 12&12 (or AA for that matter). I can't shed any light on the wording of the prayer or the mistaken author of the prayer (I thought it was St. Francis myself till a few years ago). But I thought I'd mention a little about Bill's love for Francis (as told to me by Tom Powers — 12&12 editor/co-author). Tom said that after Bill had his famous spiritual experience in Towns that Ebby went back to the Oxford Group telling them about what happened to Bill and asked what he should do to help him. They said bring him 2 books. Many people in AA know that this is when the book The Varieties of a Religious Experience hit the scene, but many people don't know that Ebby also brought Bill another book: The Little Flowers of St. Francis. ============================================= TWO OF THE VERSIONS OF THE LITTLE FLOWERS OF ST. FRANCIS ONLINE ARE: http://www.ewtn.com/library/mary/flowers.htm http://www.ccel.org/ccel/ugolino/flowers.html http://www.ccel.org/ccel/ugolino/flowers.toc.html ============================================= It's very believable to think that this event (getting that book at that time) lead to Bill's love for Francis. The Little Flowers of St. Francis has a number of little stories, and many of them telling of sudden mystical/spiritual experience. It is known that Francis had a Bill W. experience (or really the other way around) and then suffered from depression afterwards. Both Tom and Bill were fascinated with the nature and after-effects of spiritual experience (for they both had this kind of experience themselves and they both had years of what we would now be mislabel as "mental illness" that followed). I don't have the book "Pass it on" in front of me but Tom Powers quotes Francis in it saying something like, "After my conversion, I've never been well." Bill also studied Francis on the money front — using the modern day Franciscan virtue of "poverty" for the society of Alcoholics Anonymous. One last thing that Tom said about Bill and St. Francis is that Bill used to say that Francis was the patron saint of the society of Alcoholics Anonymous. Francis may be more important to out movement than we know? Matt D. (AAHL member) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5956. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: First AA group - updated August 19, 2009 From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/20/2009 2:50:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In how many countries does AA now have a presence? Laurie A. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5957. . . . . . . . . . . . Beginnings of AA in Massachusetts, Tradition 7 and Tradition 8 From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/22/2009 3:14:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Massachusetts: Boston, first began meeting regularly in March 1941 at the Jacoby Club headquarters at 115 Newbury Street. When Boston AA began it was simply part of the Jacoby Club, in the same way that when New York and Akron AA began, they were regarded as part of the Oxford Group. Also please note that when Boston AA finally split from the Jacoby Club, it was over those issues which would later be formalized as TRADITION SEVEN and TRADITION EIGHT. That is important in terms of understanding the historical development of those two traditions. See Rich Dubiel's book on the Emmanuel Movement and the Jacoby Club, Chapter 7, from which I quote below. http://hindsfoot.org/kDub1.html http://hindsfoot.org/kDub2.html Early A.A. in Boston "The first A.A. meetings were held irregularly, but by March of 1941, Burt C. and Paddy had settled on Wednesday nights at the Jacoby Club's 115 Newbury Street address for the official weekly group meeting. The Boston group's history adds that there were then about four or five alcoholics in the group." "The history of A.A. and its relationship to the Jacoby Club becomes a bit cloudy at this point. The Jacoby Club archival material supports two basic facts: A.A. and the Jacoby Club were intertwined for a period and then separated. The Boston A.A. group met at the Jacoby Club facilities and was melded with the Club, according to Ernest Jacoby, 'for quite a while.'" "The clear split at the financial level occurred when the Jacoby Club wrote a letter to Alcoholics Anonymous on May 31, 1941, informing the group that it 'regretfully recommends that the management of each group be entirely separate and distinct from that of the other.' The letter cited two basic differences. First, the Jacoby Club was a charitable institution, 'receiving money from and making appeals to the public.' A.A., being self-supporting, did not (a self-imposed rule which would later become A.A.'s Seventh Tradition). Second, the Jacoby Club employed 'a salaried man who is not an alcoholic' (Hatlestad), whereas A.A. was operated without paid professionals (the rule which was later formalized in A.A.'s Eighth Tradition). It is interesting to note that already as early as 1941, A.A. members were assuming the absolute necessity of certain organizational principles which would later be formalized in the Twelve Traditions in 1945-6." "Although the Jacoby Club letter made it clear that they no longer wanted the A.A. people telling them how to manage their business, nonetheless it was cordial in tone, including an offer to continue allowing A.A. the use of Jacoby Club rooms. The letter ended with a note of thanks to A.A. 'for the opportunity [the Jacoby Club] has been given to contribute its small share to their work.'" IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5958. . . . . . . . . . . . Beginnings of AA in Massachusetts: from the Grapevine From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/22/2009 3:02:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: t (tcumming at nc.rr.com) Massachusetts (from the Grapevine) GV June45, in the News Circuit column: "a Massachusetts legislative recess-commission recommendation made in May, the state's liquor drinkers would pay $2 a year for a "personal license" and a state hospital would be established with the money to treat alcoholics. A 448-page report declared that crime, mental ill- ness and charity costs from inebriety in the state totaled $60,000,000 annually , compared with liquor revenues of $13,139,266 in 1943. Licenses would be revoked for abuse. The commission also recommended labeling liquor with "directions" for moderation and a warning against over-indulgence. *" GV Oct45, in the News Circuit column: "A New Jersey member recently outlined the A. A. program before the Summit Rotary Club, as did a Massachusetts member in Salem, with A.A.s and Rotarians alike attending from Beverly, Danvers, Ipswich, Lynn, Marblehead, Peabody, Somerville, Waltham and North Adams ." GV May46, in the New Groups column mentions- MASSACHUSETTSâ”Fall River, Holyoke, Hyannis, and South Ashburnham. GV June46, in the News Circuit column: "The first joint meeting of the Greater Boston Groups of A.A.â” for the financial benefit of the office of the Boston Central Service Committeeâ” was attended by about 400. All contributions, and they were generous, went to help maintain Boston's Central Office. Visitors came from Hartford and Manchester, Conn.; Montpelier, Vt.; Maine, Massachusetts and other New England groups. One of the guest speakers was the Rev. Father James Timmins of Manchester,Conn. Members from Boston attended meetings of two new groups recently: Lawrence, Mass., and Dover, N.H. . . . A group is getting under way at the Veterans Hospital, Bedford, Mass." GV June46, in the New Groups column mentions- MASSACHUSETTS” Lawrence. GV Oct46, in the New Groups column mentions- MASSACHUSETTS” Salem. GV Nov46, in the New Groups column mentions- MASSACHUSETTS” Watertown, Wellesley Hills. GV Dec46, in the New Groups column mentions- MASSACHUSETTS” Boston (South End); Brookfield; Hyde Park; Worcester (No. 2. GV Jan47, in the New Groups column mentions- MASSACHUSETTS: Attleboro; Arlington, Men's Group; Newburyport, Box 165. GV Jan47, in the News Circuit column: "Growth in New England. â” In less than three years, A.A. groups in Massachusetts have increased from two to 36, or a gain of 1800 percent, while Connecticut shows a 700 percent gain, according to a member of the Newtonville, Mass., Group. Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont and Rhode Island, starting from scratch, now have 13 groups. The formation of an efficient Central Service Committee in Boston last spring has been a vital factor as was the attendance of about 600 at the sixth anniversary banquet. New England groups now include the following, which the A.A. Grapevine has been asked to list: Massachusetts: Boston, Brockton, Brookline, Brookline Village, Cambridge, Cape Cod, Hyannis and Falmouth, Dorchester, Edgartown, Fall River, Fitchburg, Greenfield, Haverhill, Holyoke, Hyde Park, Lawrence, Lynn, Malden, Mattapan, New Bedford, Newton, Norwood, Pittsfield, Rutland, Salem, Somerville, South Ashburnham, South End, South Shore-Quincy, Springfield, Upham's Corner, Watertown, Wellesley Hill, Woburn, Worcester, and Lexington; Connecticut: Ansonia, Bridgeport, Bristol, Danbury-Bethel, Greenwich, Hartford, Kent, Manchester, Meriden, Middletown, New Britain, New Haven, Norwalk, Norwich, Saybrook, Stamford, Stratford, Torrington, Waterbury, Westport, Winsted; Maine: Bangor and Portland; New Hampshire: Dover, Manchester, Portsmouth and Hanover; Rhode Island: Providence; Vermont: Bennington, Burlington, Montpelier, St. Johnsbury and Windsor." GV Mar47, in the New Groups column mentions- MASSACHUSETTS” Hingham; Malden; Seamen's Club, Boston. GV Apr47, in the New Groups column mentions - MASSACHUSETTS” Southbridge. GV May47, in the New Groups column mentions- MASSACHUSETTS” Boston (South End Group); Lowell. GV June47, in the New Groups column mentions - MASSACHUSETTS” Winchester. GV Jly47, in the New Groups column mentions- MASSACHUSETTS” Jamaica Plain; South Boston; Worcester (Group No. 3). GV Aug47, in the New Groups column mentions - MASSACHUSETTS” Amesbury; Nantucket. GV Oct47, in the New Groups column mentions- MASSACHUSETTS” East Milton, Taunton. GV Oct47, in the News Circuit column: "An article written by Bill Cunningham, Boston Herald columnist, dealing with A.A., brought many inquiries and phone calls to the Boston Central Office at 30 Huntington Avenue with an average of 10 new persons a day coming into the office for the three weeks following publication, for literature and contact with the nearest group." GV Nov47, in the New Groups column mentions- MASSACHUSETTS” Medford GV Dec47, in the New Groups column mentions- MASSACHUSETTS” Palmer (Happy Valley Group). GV Dec47, in the News Circuit column: "Judge Advises Joining A.A.” Two men before North Adams, Mass., district court on drunkenness charges were advised to join A.A. by Special Justice William A. O'Hearn recently in an action which is believed by members of the Pittsfield Group to set a precedent for Massachusetts and perhaps for the country. Stating that the commonwealth classifies drunkenness as a crime and does little or nothing to bring about rehabilitation, Judge O'Hearn said he feels it is a disease and "we should begin to do something about it." The judge continued one case for a year and placed the other on year's probation, concluding by saying, "I had little faith in A.A. when it was first organized but I have watched the growth of this organization and know some of its splendid accomplishments. I feel that today it perhaps offers the greatest opportunity in overcoming this terrible curse." The Pittsfield Group, which includes members from North Adams is following through on this by planning a big open meeting at the Hotel Richmond in North Adams soon. With the splendid cooperation of the local radio and press it is hoped that this will be successful and result in the formation of a North Adams Group." GV Jan48, in the News Circuit column: Boston Birthday ”The Boston banquet celebrating the seventh anniversary of A.A. there drew a capacity attendance” 800 at the Hotel Copley Plaza on Wednesday evening, Nov. 19. This sellout of banquet tickets was an indication of the strides A.A. itself has made. In the same hotel, 510 attended last year and 225 in 1945. A.A. co-founder, Bill W., discussed the 12 Points of Tradition. He told his audience "we will avoid any exclusiveness, material wealth, tempting alliances, controversy, professionalism, promotion and public pressure. We are weaker than the average and we need not take such risks. You and I, as alcoholics, can sit down and talk over our problems with our brothers and sisters”and that's all. The less we have to do with organization and prestige, the better." Other speakers included A.A.s from Maine, New Hampshire and Connecticut. Special guests were the newly appointed members of Massachusetts Governor Bradford's Commission of the Study of Alcoholism which will serve for four years. Helen B., the Boston secretary, reported a membership of 1,450 associated with the Boston office. Since March of 1946 when the Boston Central Service Committee of A.A. opened, membership of A.A. groups has mounted from 13 to 59 in Massachusetts, Maine and New Hampshire. Massachusetts Notes” The East Milton Group held a pre-Christmas party on .Sunday night, Dec. 14. There were presents, etc., and as a feature, an "all-A.A. orchestra" provided the music for dancing . . . Southbridge, Group has become associated with Central Service Committee in Boston. Meetings are held Monday nights at 8:30 and is an outgrowth of Worcester No. 1 Group . . . Waltham Group has opened up with meetings on Friday nights at 8:30 at 712 Main St. . . . Attleboro Group has shifted its meeting hour from 8:30 to 8 p.m. Reciprocity Move â” Salem, Mass., Group put on an open meeting that packed the large hall in Town House Square on Friday night, Nov. 28, when the members of Manchester, Conn., Group conducted the meeting. Salem A.A.s had previously gone down to Manchester to put on a meeting there. The Rev. Fr. James P. Timmins of Manchester, a non-alcoholic but long a supporter of the A.A. group there, was the guest speaker in Manchester." GV Feb48, in the New Groups column mentions- MASSACHUSETTS” Westfield GV Mar48, in the New Groups column mentions- MASSACHUSETTS” North Adams, Provincetown, Roxbury GV Apr48, in the New Groups column mentions- MASSACHUSETTS” Reading. GV May48, in the New Groups column mentions- MASSACHUSETTS” Brighton, Allston-Brighton Group; Boston, South Boston Group. GV Jly48, in the New Groups column mentions- MASSACHUSETTS” Attleboro, South Attleboro Group; Everett. GV Aug48, in the New Groups column mentions-MASSACHUSETTS” Framingham; Marblehead. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5959. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Millgate Hotel in Manchester From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/17/2009 3:24:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This reference to Millgate in Nottinghamshire muddies the waters. The AA group which was started in November 1948 met at the Millgate Hotel, Manchester, which in those days was in the county of Lancashire, now Greater Manchester (Manchester is in the north west of England, Nottingamshire in the east midlands). There is a photograph of the Millgate Hotel in the AA Great Britain archives at the General Service Office in York. It was reproduced in Share and Share Alike, the book the GB General Service Board published to mark the fellowship's 60th anniversary in Britain in 2007. An earlier book produced to mark the 50th anniversary, The First Fifty Years, noted: "The first meeting proper of the Manchester group was held in November 1948 - the venue a Manchester hotel (long since demolished). Five attended, without a Big Book or significant literature. But they shared and talked and talked until they realised the staff wanted the tea drinking party out to make way for the 'drinking' public. In haste, and with the oncoming festive season, they decided to meet again in the New Year, with nothing more than a gentelman's agreement to remain sober." Laurie A. - - - - From: United Kingdom Joe (jumpinjoe1 at gmail.com) Subject: Re: Millgate Hotel in Manchester Millgate: Newark Nottinghamshire NG24 4TU - - - - On Sat, Aug 8, 2009, Martin wrote: > > Does anybody know where the Millgate Hotel was > (or is) in Manchester, England? > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5960. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Why and how did Tradition 8 develop? From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/20/2009 2:57:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Laurie A., Arthur S., Baileygc23, and Jim L. - - - - From: Laurie A. (jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com) See Bill W's account of the origins of Tradition Eight in "Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age" (Towns hospital and the old clubhouse on 24th Street, New York). Also his essay on the tradition in the 12&12. Laurie A. - - - - From: "Arthur S" (ArtSheehan at msn.com) Right on Priscilla The long form of Tradition 8 states: "Alcoholics Anonymous should remain forever non-professional. We define professionalism as the occupation of counseling alcoholics for fees or hire. But we may employ alcoholics where they are going to perform those services for which we may otherwise have to engage nonalcoholics. Such special services may be well recompensed. But our usual A.A. '12th Step' work is never to be paid for." Cheers Arthur - - - - From: Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com) To the best of my knowledge it says our centers can employ people and pay them for their services. An alcoholic working in any kind of outside enterprise is not involved in AA activities. There was an advisory saying AA does not recognize the term Alcoholics Anonymous Alcoholism counselor; "We discovered that under no condition should an A.A. be paid for taking or carrying this message to somebody else, person to person, face to face." Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age, pg. 115. A description of AA service workers and their need to be paid when not volunteering is also shown on the same page. - - - - From: Jim L. = Sober186@aol.com (Sober186 at aol.com) The reasons for Tradition 8 are pretty well outlined in the Twelve and Twelve, Bill writes "Alcoholics Anonymous will never have a professional class. We gained understanding of the ancient words, freely ye have received, freely give. We have discovered that at the point of professionalism, money and spirituality cannot co exist." And he continues ... "We do not decry professionalism in other fields, but we accept the fact that it does not work for us ... Every time we have tried to professionalise the 12 Steps the result has been exactly the same. Our singleness of purpose has been defeated. In the 12 & 12 Bill also cited a number of other reasons. "Paid 12-Steppers did not work out." The short version of the eighth step also makes it clear. "We define professionalism as the occupation of counseling alcoholics for fees or hire .... Our usual A.A. '12th Step' work is never to be paid for." Jim L. - - - - Original Message No. 5950 from: (priscilla_semmens at yahoo.com) Why -- historically -- was this tradition developed? "Alcoholics Anonymous should remain forever nonprofessional, but our service centers may employ special workers." If I understand it correctly, I am interpreting it to say: AA members can go out into a career field because of their personal knowledge on alcoholism (and this is ok), however they should not be doing 12th Step work. We do not get paid for 12th step work. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5961. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W. and High Watch Farm From: David R. Brown . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/20/2009 7:36:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From David Brown, Laurie A., and Joseph Nugent - - - - From: "David R. Brown" (drbrown at alum.mit.edu) All, This is responding to Dave Turner's question about High Watch. When my wife, Sally Brown, and I were researching the biography of Marty Mann, we interviewed Lyn Harbaugh, who wrote her thesis "Sister Francis and the Ministry of the High Watch: From the Principles of New Thought to the Principles of Alcoholics Anonymous," Smith College, 1995. See our book, A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann. The index has references to High Watch. Enjoy your weekend at High Watch. David Brown - - - - From: jenny andrews (jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com) High Watch Farm has its own website on which it claims: "High Watch was founded in 1940 by Bill W., the co-founder of AA." Telephone: 860 927 3772. - - - - From: Joseph Nugent (jumpinjoe1 at gmail.com) See the High Watch Farm website at: http://highwatchrecovery.com/ Joe IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5962. . . . . . . . . . . . A big thank-you for the Grapevine reports on early AA From: Keith . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/19/2009 5:04:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Thank you for posting these reports from the Grapevine on early AA in various states. It sure gives a perspective on the early days, when 8 months was a lot of sobriety and their confidence was already soaring at the discovery that they could indeed do this a day at a time! Keep'em coming as you are able, please. Keith in Cumming, GA. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5963. . . . . . . . . . . . First Group in Colorado From: bbthumpthump . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/19/2009 8:54:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This is from the Area 10 Archives. "On August 19, 1941, the first recorded meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous in Denver, and in Colorado, was held in Sarah McP.'s home at 580 Franklin Street. There were eleven people present." That was the first meeting of the first group formed in Colorado. They would later be called Group #1. There is still a Group #1 active. They meet at York Street, the first clubhouse West of the Mississippi. 1311 York Street, Denver, Colorado. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5964. . . . . . . . . . . . From the Grapevine: Rhode Island From: t . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/19/2009 11:41:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Rhode Island GV Jun45, in the News Circuit column: "Regular A.A. meetings are held by the alcoholic patients at Howard State Hospital, Howard, R. I., since members of the Boston Group visited the hospital several months ago, and received the encouragement of Drs. Vera and Friz Berhendt. . . . A new group in Providence, R. I., an outgrowth of the Akron, Ohio, group, is receiving the cooperation not only of the doctors of Howard State Hospital but of the State Welfare Department, social workers and clergy alike." GV Sept46, in the New Groups column mentions- RHODE ISLAND—Providence. GV Jan47, in the News Circuit column: "Growth in New England. — In less than three years, A.A. groups in Massachusetts have increased from two to 36, or a gain of 1800 percent, while Connecticut shows a 700 percent gain, according to a member of the Newtonville, Mass., Group. Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont and Rhode Island, starting from scratch, now have 13 groups. The formation of an efficient Central Service Committee in Boston last spring has been a vital factor as was the attendance of about 600 at the sixth anniversary banquet. New England groups now include the following, which the A.A. Grapevine has been asked to list: Massachusetts: Boston, Brockton, Brookline, Brookline Village, Cambridge, Cape Cod, Hyannis and Falmouth, Dorchester, Edgartown, Fall River, Fitchburg, Greenfield, Haverhill, Holyoke, Hyde Park, Lawrence, Lynn, Malden, Mattapan, New Bedford, Newton, Norwood, Pittsfield, Rutland, Salem, Somerville, South Ashburnham, South End, South Shore-Quincy, Springfield, Upham's Corner, Watertown, Wellesley Hill, Woburn, Worcester, and Lexington; Connecticut: Ansonia, Bridgeport, Bristol, Danbury-Bethel, Greenwich, Hartford, Kent, Manchester, Meriden, Middletown, New Britain, New Haven, Norwalk, Norwich, Saybrook, Stamford, Stratford, Torrington, Waterbury, Westport, Winsted; Maine: Bangor and Portland; New Hampshire: Dover, Manchester, Portsmouth and Hanover; Rhode Island: Providence; Vermont: Bennington, Burlington, Montpelier, St. Johnsbury and Windsor." GV May47, in the New Groups column mentions- RHODE ISLAND—Westerly. GV May47, in the News Circuit column: "An agreement has been established between the Round Top Group of Providence, R. I., and officials of the Charles V. Chapin Hospital in Providence designed to supplement the physical treatment of alcoholics with the group therapy of A.A. Several beds will be made available for treatment of individuals recommended by the local A.A. group which will hold meetings from time to time at the hospital. These meetings were requested by the authorities. Previously only alcoholics committed by local authorities were accepted. There will be no obligation on the patients' part to attend meetings. " ...Organized only a few weeks ago the Newport, R. I., Group has more than a dozen members and has meetings every Tuesday night at the Rochambeau House." GV Jly47, in the News Circuit column: "R.I.C.E.A. Incorporated —Recently incorporated as The Rhode Island Committee for Education on Alcoholism, a group of the state's citizens, including representatives of the Round Top Group of Providence has laid the foundation for a campaign to "increase public understanding of alcoholism, its nature and its treatment." The unit will be affiliated with the National Committee for Education on Alcoholism. An executive committee has been named and sub-committees are to be chosen." GV Aug47, in the News Circuit column: "Starting Off Well — With about 75 members, friends and observers in attendance, the newly formed Westerly, R. I. Group got off to an auspicious start at a recent open meeting at Caledonia Hall. Moderator was a member of the Providence Round Top unit who was accompanied by a good sized delegation from that group. In the audience were District Judge Walter S. Flynn, representatives of the state probation department, and members of the Norwich, Conn. Group." GV Jly48, in the New Groups column mentions- RHODE ISLAND—Providence, Westminister Group. GV Jly48, in the News Circuit column: "Another Anniversary—The Westerly, R. I. Group celebrated its first anniversary recently with an open meeting. Civic minded men and women were the guests for the evening speaking program." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5965. . . . . . . . . . . . From the Grapevine: South Dakota From: t . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/19/2009 11:43:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII South Dakota GV Sept45, in the News Circuit column: "From the Sioux City group have gone zealous members who established groups at Moline, Ill.; Gary, Ind.; Mitchell, S. D.; Spirit Lake, Iowa; Rapid City, S. D., and Pender, Neb." GV May46, in the New Groups column mentions- SOUTH DAKOTA—Fort Meade. GV Sept46, in the New Groups column mentions- SOUTH DAKOTA—Deadwood. GV Oct46, in the New Groups column mentions- SOUTH DAKOTA—Deadwood. GV Nov46, in the New Groups column mentions- SOUTH DAKOTA—Pierre. GV Dec46, in the New Groups column mentions- SOUTH DAKOTA—Huron. GV Mar47, in the New Groups column mentions- SOUTH DAKOTA—Camel Club of Aberdeen; Battle Mountain. GV Apr47, in the New Groups column mentions- SOUTH DAKOTA—Hot Springs (Veterans Hospital Group). GV May47, in the New Groups column mentions- SOUTH DAKOTA—Artisan. GV June47, in the New Groups column mentions- SOUTH DAKOTA—Rapid City (Group No. 1). GV Sept47, in article, "Rochester, Minn Group Marks First Anniversary" it is noted that in attendance were members from Sioux Falls, South Dakota GV Oct47, in the New Groups column mentions- SOUTH DAKOTA—Deadwood, Wagner. GV Dec47, in the New Groups column mentions- SOUTH DAKOTA—Brookings. GV Jan48, in the News Circuit column: "Two members of the Aberdeen, S. D., Alno Group were instrumental in forming a group at Britton recently. Starting November 6 with the Aberdeen Alno Society coming up about 20 strong, the group recently had eight new members. At the first session the Methodist minister and state attorney were present. The address is P.O. Box 82, Britton, S.D. ... Watertown Reports—From "this high, dry and windy country," the Watertown, S. D., Group asks, "How about recognition of our group? We are 16 strong with periods of absolute sobriety ranging from one to 16 months." The address is P.O. Box 398, Watertown, S. D. . . . In this area the open meeting of the Bismarck- Mandan Chapter held recently received a large amount of newspaper publicity which has been helpful in making contacts." GV Feb48, in the News Circuit column: "Want Clubroom in '48—Members of the Aberdeen, S. D., Group have adopted the slogan "A clubroom in 1948" and three energetic members have been assigned to combat the housing shortage in the community and find suitable quarters. Members of the group, founded in March, 1946, were entertained at a special Christmas party by the Gerhard Kiddie Troop, ages 4 to 12, who put on various dances. Several members of the Britten Group, started by three former Aberdeen members, attended. The group meets every Wednesday and Sunday night in the Milwaukee Women's clubrooms."... "Building on the foundation laid some months ago by J. M., Sioux Falls, S. D., attorney, a group has been formed in the South Dakota State Penitentiary at Sioux Falls. J. M. was aided by F. 0., an inmate of the prison. Address is the South Dakota Penitentiary Chapter of A.A., Box 911, Sioux Falls, S. D." GV Apr48, in the New Groups column mentions- SOUTH DAKOTA—Bereford, Gayville, Martin, Sioux Falls. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5966. . . . . . . . . . . . From the Grapevine: Montana From: t . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/20/2009 9:34:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Montana GV Apr46, in the New Groups column mentions- Helena, Mont. GV Jly46, in the New Groups column mentions- MONTANA—Fort Missoula. GV Oct46, in the New Groups column mentions- MONTANA—Missoula. GV Dec46, in the New Groups column mentions- MONTANA—Conrad. GV Jan47, in the News Circuit column: Billings Keeps Trying. — After a former Atlanta, Ga., member brought A.A. to Billings, Mont., the Group enjoyed a growth for a while, only to dwindle to two, who kept trying until now there are six or seven members with about half a dozen others listed as dependables and about as many more who may make the grade. The Rotary Club invited the secretary to speak on A.A. at a recent luncheon and the reaction was favorable. GV Apr47, in the New Groups column mentions- MONTANA—Havre. GV Apr47, in the News Circuit column: In spite of a small membership the Butte, Mont., Group found a good place with a kitchen adequate to prepare much coffee. A good many members are reported familiar with the surroundings, (formerly a speakeasy) but redecorated considerably, from new wall paper out. The ambition is to have the club open every night and that goal is being approached. GV Aug47, in the News Circuit column: Patients Make Good Record—A.A. groups have been started in the Montana State Hospital at Warm Springs and the State Prison at Deer Lodge with gratifying results. Of approximately 15 patients released from the hospital only one so far has been known to slip, while many others are active in groups in their home towns, and at least two groups are being formed in Montana by former patients who joined A.A. while at the hospital. Members of the Butte, Montana, Group have attended all the Saturday meetings since the group was founded, and members have also attended from the capital city, Helena. GV Oct47, in the News Circuit column: Prison Group Grows—The first session of the A.A. Group at Montana Sate Hospital, Warm Springs, Mont., had only three members but there are now 40. The hospital secretary who conducted the first meetings reports he has now turned the programs over to the inmates themselves and that they are as "sincere a bunch of fellows as I've met from Chicago to San Francisco at A.A. meetings." GV Feb48, in the New Groups column mentions- MONTANA—Anaconda GV Apr48, in the New Groups column mentions- MONTANA—Great Falls. GV May48, in the New Groups column mentions- MONTANA—Livingston. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5967. . . . . . . . . . . . From the Grapevine: Mississippi From: t . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/20/2009 4:18:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Mississippi GV Jly45, in the News Circuit column mentions: Mississippi has a brand new group in Greenwood. The flourishing Jackson group was formed five months ago . GV Oct45, in the News Circuit column mentions: A Greenwood, Miss., member reports that for a year he and another man made the 95-mile trip to Memphis meetings, as did others from the neighboring countryside, until they banded together in March 1945 and formed the Greenwood Group, which now has 28 members scattered over a range of 50 miles, coming from Coffeeville, Drew, Cleveland, Marigold, Charleston, Leland, Indianola, Winona, Kosouisko, Vaiden, and Craig. GV Dec45, in the News Circuit column: mentions Mississippi as being among states represented at the first regional AA convention in Birmingham Ala. GV Feb46, in the New Groups column mentions- Hattiesburg, Mississippi; GV Feb46, in the News Circuit column: The Jackson, Miss., Group, organized in January, 1945, turned over the clubrooms at 416½ George Street for a meeting conducted by Memphis A.A.s. The rapidly growing Jackson Group now totals forty-five men and women. GV Apr46, in the New Groups column mentions- Meridian, Miss GV June46, in the News Circuit column: The New Orleans, La., Group, started March 30, 1943, has grown to an active membership of almost 200. They have been instrumental in assisting to organize groups in Covington, Abbeville, and Pollack, La.; and Tylertown, Miss. The latest one started on the Mississippi Gulf Coast includes members from Gulfport, Biloxi, and other towns in the vicinity. This group was suggested by the major in charge of the Veterans Hospital at Gulfport, who is interested in A.A. work. The same applies to the Marine Hospital in New Orleans, where the chief psychiatrist is a friend of A.A. and has made some several talks before the group. GV June46, in the New Groups column mentions- MISSISSIPPI—Gulf Coast. GV Nov46, in the New Groups column mentions- MISSISSIPPI-—Philadelphia. GV Dec46, in the New Groups column mentions- MISSISSIPPI—Mt. Olive. GV Jan47, in the New Groups column mentions- MISSISSIPPI: Lucedale, Box 281. GV Mar47, in the New Groups column mentions- MISSISSIPPI—Amory; Houston. GV Mar47, in the News Circuit column: A high attendance record with only three slips and a growth from eight to 15 members in a few months is reported by Indianola, Miss., with some members in Greenville. GV May47, in the New Groups column mentions- MISSISSIPPI—Pascagoula. GV Sept47, in the News Circuit column: An A.A. Group has been formed at Grenada, Miss., with ten at the first meeting, some of them coming from Greenwood. The Grenada address is P.O. Box 1010. GV Oct47, in the New Groups column mentions- MISSISSIPPI—Grenada. GV Nov47, in the New Groups column mentions- MISSISSIPPI—Columbus GV Dec47, in the News Circuit column: Mississippians Meet — One of the largest and most enthusiastic A.A. meetings ever held in the state of Mississippi was staged at Philadelphia, Miss., recently when members of the Columbus, Jackson, Louisville and Meridian groups convened for a big barbecue and open meeting. The feature speaker of the four-city joint session was Maryan H. of Memphis, chairman of the southeastern regional meeting held in the Tennessee city in September. GV Apr48, in the New Groups column mentions-MISSISSIPPI—Indianola, Natchez. GV May48, in the News Circuit column: Mississippians Meet—The first annual Mississippi A.A. Conclave was held at Allison Wells, Miss, on May 8 and 9. Founders of the first A.A. Group in Mississippi were invited as guest speakers. ... Growing Up — After nine months of steady growth, the Philadelphia, Miss., Group has moved into a large and modern club room. The room is equipped with chrome furniture, an electric coffee urn and game tables. Besides the regular weekly meeting a study group for beginners is held each Monday evening. GV June48, in the New Groups column mentions-MISSISSIPPI—Yazoo City. GV June48, in the News Circuit column: Don't Spare the Rod— Mississippi, one of the three "dry" states, has been going through a stormy session of the state legislature because of a bill which will legalize the sale of liquor. One state senator, a temperance leader, has prescribed for "drunks" a sentence in the state penitentiary including the use of the whipping post four times a day as a reward for the crime of drunkenness. It is reported that the press and intelligent citizens of Mississippi took the senator strongly to task for such an expression. A.A. took no part in the controversy but could not fail to note some of the fine things said about that organization by friends and the public press. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5968. . . . . . . . . . . . From the Grapevine: Nebraska From: t . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/20/2009 11:23:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Nebraska GV May46, the New Groups column notes -NEBRASKA—Grand Island. GV June46, the New Groups column notes -NEBRASKA—Wakefield-Pender. GV Jly, the New Groups column notes -NEBRASKA—Auburn. GV Dec46, the News Circuit column notes - "Near Supply Source. — Since June the Omaha, Nebr., Group has had a "skid row" Group going right across the street from Omaha's famous Hobo Park. For another dramatic touch they had an artist make a seven-foot, well dressed, domino-masked man to peddle a booklet on A.A. in the lobby of theatres showing "March of Time Problem Drinkers" and late showings of "Lost Weekend." About 1,500 pamphlets were put into circulation and phone calls at the club kept members hopping. Then, The A.A. Grapevine correspondent goes on, "outstate members . . . are organizing their own local groups and this work needs a hand. Even if all of us didn't want to do 12th Step work, we'd be in it up to the eyebrows." The Group celebrated its fourth annual Fall Festival with a banquet at the Elks club with more than 100 hearing talks by Judge John Tinley and a member of the Foundation from New York. Present were members from North Platte, Grand Island, Blair, Auburn and Fremont, Nebr., and Council Bluffs, Ia. For more than two years two members met regularly in North Platte and remote control members have been driving the 600-mile round trip to attend Omaha meetings. Now they have organized the Western Nebraska Group with 10 members from North Platte, Kearney and surrounding towns. At Grand Island a six-man Group was organized by an Omaha member. Recently 25 Omaha A.A.s drove to Lincoln to meet with a new group. Just to keep things bubbling more than champagne at the Alano club, Omaha, an experiment is being made with a set of recordings, 18 sides, which explain basic principles to prospects seeking information during the day when no member is present. The data recorded is being mimeographed in pamphlet form, pocket size, for 12th Step purposes." GV Mar47, the New Groups column notes -NEBRASKA—Scotts Bluff; Hastings; Hastings State Hospital at Ingleside. GV Mar47, the News Circuit column notes - "Visiting with Australia. — Father Dunlea, sponsor of A.A. in Australia, and founder of its Boys' Town, recently spoke to the Omaha, Nebr., Group and said that he wished those attending might visit his group "down under." As a result a recording machine was set up, a special program was recorded during a regular meeting and talks and greetings were sent to the Australian group. Getting together through the columns of the A.A. Grapevine the Balboa (Canal Zone) and Omaha Groups plan to exchange letters and ideas on a regular basis. Members of a neighborhood unit of the Omaha Group met last month at a suburban district fire station at the request of the firemen." ... " Council Bluffs, la., with the cooperation of the parent Omaha, Nebr., Group celebrated its first year recently with several hundred members and guests from Iowa and Nebraska attending the banquet at the Hotel Chieftain to hear three Iowa A.A'.s. A breakfast in the clubrooms and a two-day open house followed." ... " E. K., a member from Hastings, Nebr., who made the program the hard way out on the lone prairie, conducted the first meeting of the Hastings Group at the Clarke Hotel there.recently. Thirtyfour attended including many who have pioneered different groups in the Middle West, with speakers from North Platte, Nebr., Jefferson City, Mo., Grand Island, Nebr., Des Moines, Ia., Fremont, Nebr., and Ord, Nebr. A short time ago a North Platte contingent of two members started a series of district visits which called for much travel and long hours, but which paid off with groups now operating in Fremont, North Platte, Grand Island, Hastings, Lincoln and other cities. " ... "The Northeast Nebraska Group got going at Norfolk recently with a dinner at a hotel attended by 30 members including three from Sioux City, Ia., and four from Yankton, S.D. Dr. Charlton of the Norfolk State hospital allowed four patients to attend and has given his permission to hold meetings in the hospital. A doctor from the hospital staff spoke briefly as did Father Robert Byrnes. " GV Apr47, the News Circuit column notes - "Omaha Keeps Stepping. — The Omaha, Nebr. Group continues to throw off sparks of activity, the latest being what is described as a "new hopped-up group bulletin to be printed on our old mimeo" and called The Twelve Stepper, according to the newly elected secretary. The publication will reprint articles from The A.A. Grapevine and other group publications each week. A new hospitalization set-up has made considerable progress with the medical centers and Omaha A.A.s now feel that the next step is public, education on alcoholism. The group has been asked for material to publish in The magazine section of the World- Herald and members' articles will also be printed. On the lighter side the group recently had a big bingo party plus a floor show and refreshments." GV June47, the News Circuit column notes - "GI's Group -Ex-GI members of the Omaha, Nebr., Group have organized a group within the group, open to all ex-servicemen, which meets each Wednesday evening to discuss servicemen's problems as well as servicemen's alcoholism, which are often mixed together. Local veterans' organizations have been contacted. World War I veterans are also attending. " ... "In Omaha, Nebr., a drive for the building fund closed last month. About $2500 was put into the clubroom, including; a kitchen with modern, complete equipment for social activities. Redecoration, remodeling, lighting and modern furniture were included in improvements. The recreation room in the basement is not complete, but the final drive is expected to take care of this." ... "From Omaha, Nebr., it is reported that The Twelve has grown up and become a bi-monthly publication, being mailed on the first and fifteenth of each month. Its purpose is to give a more complete report of local and national A.A. activities, to publish excerpts from other publications and to feature articles and news from members of the Omaha groups, including those in neighboring towns and cities." GV Oct47, had a short article, "Omaha Holds Festival" Two big days of a fall festival were staged by Omaha, Nebr. A.A. Groups Sept. 27 and 28, with programs both Saturday and Sunday. Registrations were made for hotel or residence reservations, sightseeing tours and church services. There was a dinner and floor show, with no speeches, at the Elks club. Sunday began with a breakfast at the Alano club and the sightseeing tours included a visit to Boys' Town. An A.A. meeting was held Sunday afternoon with speakers from North Platte, Fremont and Grand Island, Nebraska, and Council Bluffs, Ia. GV Nov47, the News Circuit column notes - "Second Fall Festival -Inaugurated as an annual affair last year to regenerate enthusiasm for the winter season and rededicate combined efforts to A.A. work and study, the second annual Omaha, Nebr., groups' Fall Festival was attended by more than 200 members, many with their wives and families. Saturday evening at the Elks club they attended a banquet with no speeches, but with a program featuring an array of professional talent which starred "Miss Omaha," Madalyn King, whose fast tap dancing won the talent award in the Atlantic City Miss America Beauty Pageant. Song leaders from two Iowa groups competed in leading the community sing with a Council Bluffs member winning over one from Des Moines, Ia., both putting on excellent shows. A free Bingo game with several hundred dollars worth of prizes was followed by dancing, cards and impromptu entertainment. Sunday morning members and guests had breakfast at the Alano club, then visited Father Flanagan's Boys Town and other places in Omaha. The meeting of the day was at the Elks club with Omaha's oldest member as chairman and members in attendance from Iowa, South Dakota, Missouri, Illinois, Colorado and Nebraska. The principal address was delivered by Roy M. of Chicago. The open house session at the club ran into morning hours." GV Dec47, the News Circuit column notes - "Omaha Women Organize —A group composed entirely of women has been organized in Omaha, Nebr., and a series of meetings scheduled. While this group retains membership and attendance in their respective groups, members meet each week in a session for women only and discuss their special problems and development of practicable and effective 12th Step activity." GV Jan48, the News Circuit column notes - In observance of its second anniversary the Wakefield, Nebr., Group met at the American Legion hall, after which there was a social hour with refreshments. At the evening banquet a steak dinner was served to 89 members, wives and guests, while a nine-piece orchestra provided music." GV Feb48, the New Groups column notes - NEBRASKA—Columbus GV Apr48, the New Groups column notes - NEBRASKA—Ponca. GV May48, the New Groups column notes - NEBRASKA—Nebraska City, IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5969. . . . . . . . . . . . First Group in Montana From: bbthumpthump . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/21/2009 12:34:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This is what Gerry the Area 40 Archivist sent me. P A C I F I C N O R T H W E S T C O N F E R E N C E O F A. A. The Montana Story Nineteen forty-two. A year which will long be remembered by many, many alcoholics in the state of Montana. It is difficult, from the records available to know, whether it began in Butte or Billings. However, we do know that two men, both beaten by the bottle and ready to do almost anything to win back their sobriety, living in Butte, Montana, got together, after hearing of A.A. elsewhere. They arranged the first meeting in a doctor's office. This group, from its humble beginning, now has a membership of 45 and has organized its own club. They hold meetings four nights per week with an average attendance of thirty-five. A.A. was first brought to the city of Billings by a former mem- ber of A.A. in Atlanta, Georgia. He met with considerable dis- appointment at the first. This was in 1942. He tried and tried for a long time to get a group organized, and it was not until February of 1946 that other alcoholics finally "saw the light" and joined with this enthusiastic "loner" in forming a group. This group has steadily expanded and has never looked back. The total membership in Bill- ings is now approximately 75 members. Another "loner" was in- strumental in starting the movement in Helena in July of 1945. In Missoula the first meeting was attended by only three men in 1947. They met first in homes, but now have the YMCA hall. Meetings in Havre are still held in members homes, as were the first meetings which were also started by a "loner" who got out and rustled up another alcoholic in February of 1947. Then came Livingston, Miles City, Cut Bank, Shelby, Glendive, Anaconda, Froid, and so on. Thus from an early pioneer, suffering as only an alcoholic can suffer, came "light" to hundreds of other alcoholics in Montana. From one City to another, from one State to another the Message is taken as a root grows. Alcoholics Anonymous is an organization for GOOD, and so will travel from its roots through members, into towns and cities and countries, giving Life and Hope and Peace. The story of Montana is no different than any other State. Basically, A.A. is the same and Montana offers its thanks to the original two members in Akron, Ohio, for its inception and knows, as we all know, that A.A. will live forever if you but let it live for you! Carry the Message on and on! A.J.P |22| Andy P. 1st State Delegate IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5970. . . . . . . . . . . . To whom were the letters written in As Bill Sees It? From: nuevenueve@ymail.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/21/2009 7:43:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Can anyone provide a list of the names of the people to whom the letters were written -- the letters which are quoted in many so paragraphs of "As Bill Sees It"? I.e., a list giving Item No. and then "Letter to name-of-person" and Date. So, for example, Item No. 114 ("No Personal Power") simply says at the bottom "LETTER, 1940," without giving the name of the person to whom Bill W. wrote the letter. Thanks. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5971. . . . . . . . . . . . World AA conventions held outside of U.S. and Canada? From: CloydG . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/23/2009 11:26:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Since AA is all around the world now, are there World Conventions held outside of the U.S. and Canada in addition to the every-five-year AA International Conferences? In love and service, Clyde G. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5972. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W. and High Watch Farm From: John Barton . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/23/2009 9:10:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII See William L. White, "Slaying the Dragon: The History of Addiction Treatment and Recovery in America ," pages 172-175. God Bless IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5973. . . . . . . . . . . . Film critic Roger Ebert on A.A. From: diazeztone . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/25/2009 12:00:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII BREAKING NEWS ROGER EBERT'S "I AM AN ALCOHOLIC" MOVIE BLOG AUG 25 09 http://blogs.suntimes.com/ebert/2009/08/my_name_is_roger_and_im_an_alc.html CONGRATULATIONS Glenn he mentions your Hindsfoot site and not mine!! (of course mine is really poorly designed and needs new sitemap) Roger Ebert is the Chicago Sun-Times Pulitzer Prize winning film critic, for a short bio see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Ebert A note to Roger: WOW what an exciting day although I am somewhat concerned about the AA anonymity issue and your post. However there are so many more anonymity breaks today concerning AA and failed celebrities. Celebrity failure on the news networks every day. What a success story you are, and I am really excited and proud to read your blog no matter my concerns!! I am long time devoted fan and long have suspected there was a source of the deep psychological humanism of your movie reviews. I am sure it comes from being sober. Due to your constant diligence in writing fantastic review I always wanted to see more movies. I am now able to do that (sometimes 2 a day) and am writing my own capsule reviews on Netflix and Rotten Tomatoes (ID dfwforeignbuff). (Sometimes as much 300 words, not much, ha ha.) I was sober 14 years June 15 2009. It is so fantastic to tell us about your other secret to writing good reviews -- STAY SOBER AND AA WORKS!! Although the image you have of the Bill W obit says AA Canada, I sold that obit on ebay a few years ago but I still have my original image of the obit and that photo is also on my site. I am proud of saving that image too!! Thanks for presenting us so much good info about AA here and all the pointers to movies with alcoholism and AA as a subject!! A longtime fan, editor of AA Bibliography, LD "P" eztone at hotmail IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5974. . . . . . . . . . . . AA history of Indiana and general AA archival treasures From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/25/2009 12:48:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In addition to Indiana historical photos, also has good photos of: books which early AA's read, famed twelfth- stepper Irwin M.'s home in Cleveland, the letter from the Alcoholic Foundation with the first 22 AA groups listed. Also photos of the early Akron pamphlets, the Cleveland Sponsorship pamphlet, and early pamphlets from the Alcoholic Foundation/Works Publishing. Also photos of the Indiana Home (founded in Indianapolis in 1945 for alcoholism treatment, with active AA involvement), and the 1944 Indianapolis pamphlet (with a list of all the Indiana towns where AA had been started as of that date). Bruce C., from Muncie, has developed this picture-filled 72-page PowerPoint on the AA history of Indiana. An Adobe Acrobat version is available at: http://aamuncie.org/files/History_of_AA_in_Indiana.pdf Bob S. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5975. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: World AA conventions held outside of U.S. and Canada? From: Kimball ROWE . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/24/2009 10:40:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII If memory doesn't fail me, aren't the confences sponsored by Intergroup Continental Europe referred to as "multi-national" conferences? -----Original Message----- From: CloydG Subject: World AA conventions held outside of U.S. and Canada? Since AA is all around the world now, are there World Conventions held outside of the U.S. and Canada in addition to the every-five-year AA International Conferences? In love and service, Clyde G. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5976. . . . . . . . . . . . From the Grapevine: Nevada From: t . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/20/2009 11:24:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Nevada GV Feb46, the News Circuit column notes - Nevada's first group has gotten under way in Las Vegas. Address: Box 732, Las Vegas, Nev. GV Aug46, the New Groups column notes - NEVADA—Reno. GV Sept46, the News Circuit column notes - Writing about the Las Vegas, Nevada Group, with 35 men and women to date, and the new branch that has been formed by members from Boulder City and Henderson, a Las Vegas correspondent, lauding the work of A.A., begins with: "Last November, when it was announced that Alcoholics Anonymous had organized in Las Vegas, a startled woman went to her minister and complained at the sorry state of affairs. She declared that things were coming to an awful fix 'when the drunkards organize'." GV Oct46, the New Groups column notes - NEVADA—Henderson. GV Oct46, the News Circuit column notes - From Northern California comes word that there has been "considerable opposition to the A.A. program in Reno, Nevada." But since some of the Sacramento and Roseville members —18 in all—went to Reno and held an opening meet, it is felt that the Reno populace now has a better understanding of the aims of A.A. GV Dec46, the News Circuit column notes - Matches Reno Hours.— Because Reno is a "24-hour town" the new club house on which members are working, will be open twenty-four hours a day if necessary. Members of this Nevada group will have the use of a library, card room, club room and coffee bar as counter attractions to other local activities. Starting with four members last May the membership grew to 19 in July with more than 80 now listed on the books although 44 per cent are transient. Some of these are new and some were members of other groups in New York, Utah, Arizona, California and Connecticut. Inquiries have been received not only from all parts of Nevada, but from Brooklyn, N. Y., Southern California and even Canada as a result of an advertisement in one of the Reno papers. Various members who travel all over the state and different parts of California visit any one in these vicinities wishing help and extend the usual invitation to any other A.A. members to drop in for a visit. Three new groups, and one day group are reported at Carson City, Nev., Sparks, Nev. and Herlong, Cal. GV Dec46, the New Groups column notes - NEVADA—Carson City, Box 173. GV Mar47, the New Groups column notes - NEVADA-—Nevada state Prison at Carson City GV Apr47, the News Circuit column notes - In the Nevada state Prison, at Carson, The first meeting was attended by 14 alcoholic inmates and five members of the Reno and Carson Groups. The move is supported by Warden Richard Sheey and Gov. Vail M. Pittman. GV Oct47, the New Groups column notes - NEVADA — Fallon, Hawthorne, Donner Trail Group (Verdi). GV Jly48, the New Groups column notes - NEVADA—Reno, Group Two. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5977. . . . . . . . . . . . From the Grapevine: New Hampshire From: t . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/20/2009 11:27:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII New Hampshire GV Apr46, the New Groups column notes - Hill, N. H. GV June46, the News Circuit column notes - Members from Boston attended meetings of two new groups recently: Lawrence, Mass., and Dover, N. H. GV Oct46, the New Groups column notes - NEW HAMPSHIRE—Manchester. GV Nov46, the New Groups column notes - NEW HAMPSHIRE—Hanover. GV Jan47, the New Groups column notes - NEW HAMPSHIRE: Twin State Group, Lyme, Box 102. GV Jan47, the News Circuit column notes - Growth in New England. — In less than three years, A.A. groups in Massachusetts have increased from two to 36, or a gain of 1800 percent, while Connecticut shows a 700 percent gain, according to a member of the Newtonville, Mass., Group. Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont and Rhode Island, starting from scratch, now have 13 groups. The formation of an efficient Central Service Committee in Boston last spring has been a vital factor as was the attendance of about 600 at the sixth anniversary banquet. New England groups now include the following, which the A.A. Grapevine has been asked to list: Massachusetts: Boston, Brockton, Brookline, Brookline Village, Cambridge, Cape Cod, Hyannis and Falmouth, Dorchester, Edgartown, Fall River, Fitchburg, Greenfield, Haverhill, Holyoke, Hyde Park, Lawrence, Lynn, Malden, Mattapan, New Bedford, Newton, Norwood, Pittsfield, Rutland, Salem, Somerville, South Ashburnham, South End, South Shore-Quincy, Springfield, Upham's Corner, Watertown, Wellesley Hill, Woburn, Worcester, and Lexington; Connecticut: Ansonia, Bridgeport, Bristol, Danbury-Bethel, Greenwich, Hartford, Kent, Manchester, Meriden, Middletown, New Britain, New Haven, Norwalk, Norwich, Saybrook, Stamford, Stratford, Torrington, Waterbury, Westport, Winsted; Maine: Bangor and Portland; New Hampshire: Dover, Manchester, Portsmouth and Hanover; Rhode Island: Providence; Vermont: Bennington, Burlington, Montpelier, St. Johnsbury and Windsor. GV Jly47, the New Groups column notes - NEW HAMPSHIRE — Nashua; Portsmouth. GV Aug47, the New Groups column notes - NEW HAMPSHIRE—North Conway. GV Oct47, the News Circuit column notes - "A recent affair which sent many A.A.s away on an overnight trip was the establishment of a new group at North Conway, N.H., well-known resort. The opening session was at Mitchell's Ski Ranch, Kearsarge, N. H., with members from various groups in Massachusetts, and New Hampshire lending support . . . The Portsmouth, N. H., Group had a gala picnic recently at Perkins Cove, Ogunquit, Me . . . The Salem (Mass.) Group reports that 44 members chartered a bus to attend a Braves game in Boston while on another occasion two chartered busses and many private cars took members and guests to Canobie Lake Park, Salem, N. H., where there was a softball game between old-timers and new members and other entertainment . . . The Manchester, N. H., Group now meets at the Franklin Congregational Church on Tuesday nights, starting at 8 instead of 8:30. . . " GV Oct47, the New Groups column notes - NEW HAMPSHIRE—North Conway Group (Kearsarge), Rochester. GV Jan48, the News Circuit column notes - New Hampshire Jottings—East Jaffrey, a new group started several weeks ago, held an opening meeting in the Town Hall on Wednesday night, Dec. 3, with Massachusetts visitors providing all the speakers. Malden, South End, Woburn, Sommerville, Quincy, Arlington, Medford, Cambridge, Fitchburg and other Bay State group members made the trip by auto to lend support. The group meets on Saturday nights at the Firemen's Hall at 8 p.m. . . . Nashua Group is holding its meetings on Sunday nights at 8 p.m. at the Church of Good Shepherd hall. GV Apr48, the New Groups column notes - NEW HAMPSHIRE—East Jeffrey. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5978. . . . . . . . . . . . From the Grapevine: Oklahoma From: t . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/21/2009 12:51:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Oklahoma GV Oct44, the Points of View [letters] column lists - Dear Grapevine: . . . the Tulsa Radio station, KVOO, is to give an A.A. quiz program Saturday, October 7, 1944, at 10:15 P.M. Central Standard Time. The questions are to be asked by a doctor, a minister and a controlled drinker who are not familiar with A.A. The 3 Oklahoma groups will be represented on the broadcast, referred to only as Mr. A, B, or C. MC., Tulsa, Oklahoma GV Nov44, the Points of View [letters] column lists - Dear Grapevine: Just a line to let you know that I am receiving my Grapevine and how much I enjoy it. ... I would like to know if you would consider sending it to a young man in the State Penitentiary at McAlester. He read the copy of the book which is in the library there and wrote to the Oklahoma City group and some of us are corresponding with him. . . . Most of our work in this case will have to be done by mail and everything will help. Cody C., Oklahoma GV Mar45, from the News Circuit column: Tulsa, Oklahoma, will soon welcome a new member—an inmate of McAlester Prison, who has been corresponding with Tulsa A.A.s. GV Apr45, from the News Circuit column: Oklahoma's expanding A. A. has now reached to McAlester. GV Sept45, from the News Circuit column: Oklahoma City A. A. have just received their charter from the secretary of state to operate in that city and throughout the state . GV Jan46, from the News Circuit column: The Tulsa, Okla., Group, which will be two years old next April and which now numbers 70 members, has opened new club rooms at 114½ North Denver Avenue; about 100 attended the opening festivities, including members from Oklahoma City and Muskogee, and Wichita and Topeka. GV Feb46, the New Groups column lists - Shawnee, Oklahoma; GV Apr46, the New Groups column lists - Clinton, Oklahoma; GV Apr46, from the News Circuit column: Oklahoma City A.A.s are preparing to establish a group in Clinton. Shawnee, the latest town in the Sooner State to form a group, now has 15 members, and they are steadily rolling 'em in. GV May46, the New Groups column lists - OKLAHOMA—Bartlesville. GV June46, from the News Circuit column: Oklahoma City A.A.s are now holding their meetings in a brand new modernistic, brick building, the property of the group and strictly a membership proposition, built from plans drawn by members, constructed by members, and paid for from funds contributed by members. The auditorium seats approximately 400 and the Clubhouse has a dining room, kitchen, offices, and men's and women's rest rooms. Today's total membership is over 200 divided into small groups for discussion meetings. Two of the Oklahoma City members outlined the principles of A.A. before the Kiwanis Club of that city recently. A return engagement was requested. GV Aug46, from the News Circuit column: Five years ago, two Oklahoma City alcoholics, unknown to each other, wrote to the Central Office in New York City asking for information. The office put them in touch with each other. Today, the Oklahoma City Group has approximately 250 members. It also has a new home, seating capacity 400. Two adjoining lots have been bought with the idea of later on building a big auditorium. . . . After driving to A.A. meetings in January, 1944, in Oklahoma City, a resident of Tulsa decided to see if there were not enough Tulsans who would like to give the program a whirl. In May, 1944., he and two other alcoholics met. That was the first session of the Tulsa A.A. Group, which celebrated its second anniversary in its own club rooms at 114½ North Denver Ave. this year. During the first year, the membership stood at 33, compared to the 97 men and women on the rolls today. . . . . A family-style dinner served by wives of members is the weekly feature of meetings in Shawnee, Okla., where the Group now numbers over 35 regular members. GV Aug46, the New Groups column lists - OKLAHOMA—Alva and Atlue. GV Oct46, the New Groups column lists - OKLAHOMA—Ponca City. GV Oct46, from the News Circuit column: The non-alcoholic wives of the Tulsa, Oklahoma, chapter hold regular meetings. GV Dec46, from the News Circuit column: Tulsa, Okla., Tribune: "Tulsa bootleggers are taking an awful beating from one organization in this city. Members of the Tulsa chapter of Alcoholics Anonymous at a meeting recently estimated that when its members quit patronizing bootleggers their combined 'boycott' cut bootleg income $190,000 a year." GV Dec46, the New Groups column lists - OKLAHOMA.—Norman. GV Jan47, the New Groups column lists - OKLAHOMA: Cherokee; Blackwell; Cordell. GV Mar47, the New Groups column lists - OKLAHOMA—El Reno; Pauls Valleys; Hobart. GV June47, the New Groups column lists - OKLAHOMA—Holdenville; Stillwater. GV June47, from the News Circuit column: Organized in January, 1946, the Clinton, Okla., Group now numbers 18 active members and about three months ago was split into two groups, the other being at Cordell, with many members attending sessions of both each week. . . . A member of the Shawnee, Okla., Group who works for a Wewoka paper has been running A.A. articles there, telling of the program and pointing out that A.A.s from Holdenville, Ada and other towns have been attending the meetings. GV Jly47, the New Groups column lists - OKLAHOMA. — Ada. GV Jly47, from the News Circuit column: Tulsa Reports "Happy Group"—When about 200 A.A.s with an additional 100 relatives and visitors celebrated the third anniversary of the Tulsa, Okla., Group recently the general opinion was that "disagreements are few and bickerings aren't allowed to occur." Tangible evidence of the spirit is shown in such items as rent paid in advance for a year, $6,000 worth of furniture and equipment and $1,000 in the treasury. A.A. came to Tulsa in 1944 when a young business man got a copy of the book and as he had graduated from several institutions from Texas to New York, began attending meetings in Oklahoma City, 125 miles away, twice a week. Then came a luncheon meeting in Tulsa with visiting A.A.s and two other prospects including the chief of police. Small office meetings, then a meeting with Oklahoma City Group members in a union hall and the group was really launched. Meeting in various homes, with wives aiding in serving luncheons, the group has continued to expand, graduating to larger meeting places, aided by newspaper and radio publicity. By 1945 when the group numbered about 40, a hall was secured and reconditioned as a clubroom which was formally opened with visitors from Kansas City, Dallas, Houston and other cities. Our correspondent writes, "Almost every conceivable business, profession and trade is represented. About 25 percent of our members have never had a slip and probably another 50 percent have sailed a straight course after getting their bearings. We have about 20 women members and some 10 or 12 husbands and wives, both alcoholics. We have classes for new members, membership meetings and open houses. We employ a full-time secretary and clubroom manager and are open 10 or more hours every day. Come out and see us sometime." GV Aug47, the Bottoms Up [humor] column notes - Johnny P., one of the early members in Chicago, who also helped found the Kansas City and Oklahoma Groups, and who now lives in Buffalo, can tell of an experience which is not unfamiliar to other A.A.s — an encounter with a prospect's wife who is bent on proving that you can not only push the horse to water but you can also make him drink. Johnny was doing his best to talk to the 12th Step prospect. But the prospect's wife kept answering for him. The prospect kept mum. Johnny tried to explain several times to the wife that A.A. was a voluntary matter, that the alcoholic himself had to want to get sober for himself, that nobody else could take the program for him. "You should attend meetings," said Johnny to the prospect. "But it's all up to you. A.A. is voluntary." "He'll do it voluntarily, all right," chimed in the wife. "I'll see that he does." GV Oct47, from the News Circuit column: Report from Stillwater — "We have ten members and are doing fine," happily reports the correspondent at Stillwatcr, Okla., which has a comparatively young A.A. group. GV Nov47, in article "Memphis Figures" concerning attendance at the recent Memphis convention notes: Oklahoma, though technically outside the conference region, reported the third largest number of individual A.A.s present, with 47. GV Mar48, the New Groups column lists - OKLAHOMA — Pawhuska, Seminole GV Apr48, the New Groups column lists - OKLAHOMA—Muskogee, Tipton. GV May48, the New Groups column lists - OKLAHOMA—Tulsa, Pioneer Group. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5979. . . . . . . . . . . . From the Grapevine: Oregon From: t . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/21/2009 12:53:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Oregon GV Nov45, from the News Circuit column: The Portland, Ore., A. A. s now have their own club rooms in the heart of the city. Although the first Portland group was founded less than two years ago, two active groups are now functioning there and holding regular bi-weekly sessions. In a note from one of the members, headed "Handshake across the Rockies, " it is reported that the groups have rented 2, 000 square feet of space on the second floor of a building directly across the street from the public library. GV Feb46, from the News Circuit column: Acquisition of clubrooms by the Portland, Oregon, Group has been announced. GV Jly46, from the News Circuit column: The M i l l Creek Group of Salem, Ore., recently held an essay contest for members, who wrote on "What A.A. Means to Me." . GV Aug46, the New Groups column lists - OREGON—Salem. GV Oct46, from the News Circuit column: From the Pacific Northwest: The Portland, Oregon, Group is making sure, steady progress. GV Dec46, the New Groups column lists - OREGON—Astoria; Eugene. GV Mar47, from the News Circuit column: Portland, Ore., now has three groups with possibility of having to start a fourth as the result of continued growth. GV June47, from the News Circuit column: Discuss Northwest Conference—Possibilities of a Northwest conference have been discussed recently, according to the Beacon Hill Group of Victoria, B. C., Canada, with Vancouver and Vancouver Island Groups to join with those from Washington and Oregon. Victoria has been mentioned as a possible locale with a two or three day meeting suggested. Seattle, Spokane, Tacoma and other Northwest groups are reported as welcoming the idea and promising to send good representations if it is held. Victoria A.A.s are also following the amendments and debates on a brief presented recently to the Provincial Cabinet by Vancouver, Victoria and New Westminster A.A.s concerning education on alcoholism. GV Aug47, the New Groups column lists - OREGON—North Lincoln Group (Ocean Lake). GV Oct47, the New Groups column lists - OREGON—La Grande, Group No. I in Pendleton. GV Feb48, the New Groups column lists - OREGON—Roseburg GV Mar48, the New Groups column lists - OREGON — Portland (Business Professional Group) GV Apr48, the New Groups column lists - OREGON—Portland. GV May48, the New Groups column lists - OREGON—Medford. GV Jly48, the New Groups column lists - OREGON—Hood River. GV Aug48, the New Groups column lists - OREGON—Cottage Grove. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5980. . . . . . . . . . . . From the Grapevine: North Carolina From: t . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/21/2009 7:08:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII North Carolina GV Jan45, from the News Circuit column: The husky Braves pitcher, Nate Andrews, while at training camp last spring, went on a terrific tear that involved hidden bottles, nerve pills, and frantic long-distance telephone calls. The whole of it ended in columns of bad publicity, He was rescued by the BOSTON A. A. s, and though there was lit - tle confidence that the good-natured, popular Nate would ever fully recover from his ordeal, he did. With a sixth-place team, Nate won 16, lost 15 games, He was the best pitcher on the club. An enthusiastic member of the Boston A. A. group, he spoke often at meetings. The publicity given his dive overboard and subsequent rescue brought into the group one hundred and fifty new men during the summer. Retaining his delightful sense of humor, Nate said just before returning to his home in North Carolina, "But Ah told 'em they needn't expect me to make an example out of myself every spring. " GV Aug45, from half page article, "Shelby Group helps Carolinian Find Himself" In the fall of 1939 the first A. A. meeting was held in Shelby, North Carolina. A group of three men met in the office of Dr. M., the sponsor of the group. Since then the group has moved meeting places several limes. At present we have clubrooms in an uptown hotel. This location is ideal, being in the center of town. We have the usual club furnishings, lockers, showers, piano, radio, pool table, reading room, and a seating capacity of one hundred and twenty-five. The membership has grown from three to forty solid members. Since 1939 more than a hundred members have passed through the club, many of whom are now in the armed services; others have gone to work in war plants, while some have moved for business reasons. In the past year, the Shelby group has been instrumental in starting clubs in Asheville, Charlotte, and Gastonia, in North Carolina, and in Spartanburg and Rock Hill in South Carolina. Some of these groups in the larger cities have grown fast and are doing outstanding work; all have got over most of their growing pains. All of these towns and cities being nearby, we have many inter-club meetings, which have been most helpful. GV Feb46, from the New Groups column - Fayetteville, North Carolina; GV May46, from the New Groups column - NORTH CAROLINA — Whitakers and Rich Square. GV Apr46, from the New Groups column - Belhaven, N. C. GV Apr46, from the News Circuit column: The Rock Hill, S. C., Group was host to all the North and South Carolina groups at a meeting last month. Two hundred representatives were present from Raleigh, Chapel Hill, Charlotte, Shelby, Winston-Salem, Asheville, Hendersonville, N. C., and Columbia, Anderson, Chester, Greenville, S. C. GV June46, from the New Groups column - NORTH CAROLINA—Lenoir and Washington. GV Jly46, from the New Groups column - NORTH CAROLINA—Henderson. GV Sept46, from Clip Sheet [newspaper clippings] column: Chapel Hill, N. C., Weekly: "James S., the novelist who lives in Chapel Hill, is a member of Alcoholics Anonymous. . . . "One day recently he got a telephone call from a fellow member, a business man in a town not far from here, who felt the mania coming on. 'Come right on over here,' said Mr. S. The man did come, but on the way be obtained a supply of liquor, and when be arrived late in the afternoon he was roaring drunk. "There was no hospital to take him to, so Mr. S. decided he would ask the police to let him stay overnight in the jail in the basement of the Town Hall. "The initial trouble was that the police did not know Mr. S. Not being familiar with Alcoholics Anonymous, naturally they did not at once understand his explanations. " 'No wonder they thought there was something queer about me,' be said afterward. 'I had just come off my farm. I was in old dirty clothes and had a heavy growth of heard.' "He named several persons in Chapel Hill with whom he was acquainted. The jail was empty at the time, and the police willingly took the stranger in. Mr. S., seeing that there was plenty of room, asked if he could stay there, too. The police said yes, and he went to bed in one of the four bunks in the cell. Next morning the stranger, sobered up, was attended to according to the approved A.A. method." GV Sept46, from the News Circuit column: Definite arrangements have been completed for the Southern Regional Meeting in Asheville, N. C., September 16, 17 and 18, with the George Vanderbilt Hotel as headquarters. Plans are being made to accommodate the largest A.A. crowd yet assembled in the South. Nationally known speakers will be heard, and scheduled A.A. clinics will be held. These plans were announced at an Inter-Group meeting of all the Carolina groups which took place recently in Shelby, N. C., and was attended by about 90 members and their families. GV Oct46, from the News Circuit column: In Charlotte, N. C., where the group has been unable to find any permanent clubroom space at all, and where the various meetings are held in different places, the problem has been partially solved by a member of the judiciary. Judge Reed of the Domestic Court has generously given over his courtroom at the Mecklenburg County Court House for two meetings a week. . . . The Charlotte branch, which had its inception in 1942 and reports "92% happy and sober," was well represented at a big meeting in Greenville, S. C. Other members came from groups in Rock Hill, Anderson, Spartanburg, and Inman, S. C.; and from Shelby (the original group of the Carolinas), and Asheville, N. C. Bennettsville is a recent South Carolina group to get going; others reporting increasing numbers in the two states are Andrews, Charleston, Greensboro, Greenville and Hendersonville. The two-man Elizabeth City, N. C., Group visits religiously the meetings at Norfolk, Va. GV Oct46, from the New Groups column - NORTH CAROLINA—Greensboro, Greenville and Statesville. GV Nov46, from the New Groups column - NORTH CAROLINA—Asheville (No. 2), Bethel. GV Nov46, from the Clip Sheet column: Asheville, N. C., Citizen: "With more than 300 delegates registered, and 100 more expected to arrive, the annual Southeastern convention of Alcoholics Anonymous held its sessions in the main ballroom of the George Vanderbilt Hotel here. "The delegates represented 139 Groups from 13 .states. Throughout the convention, several nationally-known members of the organization were speakers." GV Dec46, from the New Groups column - NORTH CAROLINA—Chapel Hill; High Point. GV Jan47, from the New Groups column - NORTH CAROLINA : Hickory. GV Mar47, from the New Groups column - NORTH CAROLINA—Rowland; Graham. GV Apr47, from the New Groups column - NORTH CAROLINA—Wilmington; Charlott (Myers Park Group). GV May47, from the New Groups column - NORTH CAROLINA—Albemarle; Leaksville; New River. GV June47, from the News Circuit column: Since starting almost a year ago the Chapel Hill, N. C., Group has branched out with groups started in Burlington, Raleigh and Durham. Although losing some members to the new organizations, stimulating programs have kept the attendance between 20 and 40 and members report it has not been "to difficult to keep interest alive." . . . From Charlotte, N. C., The A.A. Grapevine hears that the Myers Park Group held its first meeting in February and has grown fast since that time. Meetings are Monday nights at 8 at the Myers Park Methodist Church. GV June47, from the New Groups column - NORTH CAROLINA — Durham; Lumberton; Raleigh; Southern Pines. GV Aug47, from the New Groups column - NORTH CAROLINA—Bladenboro; Boone. GV Aug47, from the News Circuit column: The Durham, N. C. Group was reorganized early this year with five members, one former member of the old group, and it now numbers about 30, all new except the one mentioned. Progress is felt to be on a solid basis. The Durham Group, with the cooperation of the Chapel Hill, Burlington and Raleigh Groups, hopes to hold a public meeting soon. Several Durham members recently visited New York and enjoyed a visit to the Alcoholic Foundation. GV Sept47, from an article titled "Half-a-Man A Year Ago Now Does Work of Many In Salisbury, N. C. Group" We started our group here in Salisbury, N. C. November 6, 1946, with what we called five and one-half members! This half member had just come off a terrible three-weeks' bender and was so shaky we told him he really didn't count as a whole member. But, believe me, be counts now. He has enjoyed complete sobriety since then, and has brought many members to our group. During our ten months of existence, more than fifty alcoholics have joined us. Not all of them stuck, but the majority did. Some of these have moved away or have traveling jobs which prevent their taking an active part in our group work, but they are sober and giving credit to A.A. More than two dozen of us are wearing A.A. pins which means that the wearers have three or more months of sobriety to their credit. GV Aug47, from the New Groups column - NORTH CAROLINA—Kings Mountain, Lincolnton. GV Aug47, from the New Groups column - NORTH CAROLINA — Asheville (Beverly Hills Group), New Bern GV Nov47, from the News Circuit column: North Carolina Groups Solid—From Kings Mountain, N. C.. The. Grapevine's correspondent reports that not only his own Group with 12 members, but others, are "solid." The Kings Mountain Group was started some years ago by Paul M., a non-alcoholic, who provided transportation to Shelby for anyone wishing to try the A.A. way. The group reports a gain of about a member each week. . . The Shelby Group is over six years old and has been aiding men from all over the South. . . Lincolnton is growing and has a fine clubroom open all the time, while Hickory, too, has a growing Group and good quarters. . . The Gastonia Group has started for the third time, with new determination to suc- ceed. . . Rockhill now has about 30 members. They meet with men from York, Chester and Fort Mill each Wednesday. Members from other towns also attend. . . Andrews Group has also been growing and helping Conway, S. C., and Myrtle Beach get going. Bennettsville, S. C., and Rowland. N. C., are holding regular weekly meetings with good results. . . Average attendance at Charlotte has been about 50 with six to eight new men at each meeting. The new club room is ready to go. The Myers Park Group meets at Myers Park Methodist Church Monday and Friday nights at 8, with open sessions and fellowship gatherings following. New men and women from all groups meet at the YMCA on Sunday night to the number of about 85 to 90, starting with a general subject and splitting up into three discussion groups. . . . Another Women's Auxiliary—Along with a list of 10 subscriptions to The Grapevine, the Hickory, N. C., Group reports that all these new subscribers are part of a recently formed A.A. Auxiliary of 36 members who plan to study A.A. as well as help other women who are "going through what we have, and maybe through the wives bring other men into A.A." There are two meetings and one social every month. GV Nov47, from article "Memphis Figures" on the recent Memphis convention: A total of 24 states and Canada, and 112 groups were represented in the registration. Tennessee, of course, led in both the. number of groups represented—11—and in the number of individual A.A.s attending—173. Alabama was second with 57 members from 10 groups attending. North Carolina was third in the number of groups represented, accounting for nine, but Oklahoma, though technically outside the conference region, reported the third largest number of individual A.A.s present, with 47. GV Nov47, from the Clip Sheet column: Gastonia, N. C., Gazette—"A small but growing group of Gastonia men assembles in a room in uptown Gastonia each Thursday in the interest of self help. It is a sober group, pursuing a sane and sober objective. It is a unit of Alcoholics Anonymous, an organization of those suffering from the disease of alcoholism or near-alcoholism, and to reclaiming their lives for wholesome and productive living. That it is a stride forward in the interest of both the individual and society is evident from the thousands of lives reclaimed from stagnation and turned to constructive pursuits by A.A. already." GV Jan48, from the News Circuit column: Asheville Into New Quarters—Formed in March, 1944, and now numbering 60 members, the Asheville, N. C., Group recently moved into its new club and celebrated with open house. Included in the new home are a spacious lounge, comfortably furnished club rooms, coffee bar, large log burning fireplace, a pool table and two bowling alleys. GV Feb48, from the New Groups column - NORTH CAROLINA—Henderson GV Mar48, from the New Groups column - NORTH CAROLINA — Oxford GV Mar48, from the News Circuit column: Six Out of Seven—New quarters for the Henderson (N. C.) Group are ready for occupancy, the membership roll totals about 30 and the record shows two open banquets, with 80 persons in attendance at each, in addition to the regular weekly meetings—all in scarcely five months. The group held its first meeting last October 1, with seven alcoholics present. Of those original seven, six have gained and maintained their sobriety. GV Apr48, from the New Groups column - NORTH CAROLINA—Clinton, Columbia, Rockingham. GV May48, from AA Digest [clips from group publications]: A.A. Rebound, Asheville, N. C.: "We have heard recent talk about A.A. Tradition and that we should study and familiarize ourselves with the 12 Points. There may be some who immediately view with alarm and look around inquiringly to ask, "What's wrong?" There is nothing wrong. The ship is on an even keel. All is well. But do we recall our various school day (and later) vaccinations and their purpose? Well, that's what a study of the A.A. Tradition can be, preventive medicine. We owe it to ourselves and to the group to inoculate ourselves against any possible disease of disharmony or disunity. In knowledge we are forewarned and forearmed. The booklet of A.A. Tradition, properly absorbed, is a concrete vaccination." GV June48, from the News Circuit column: Another new group is thriving in Oxford, N. C. Starting with five members last December the group now has 20 members and reports no slips to date. GV Aug48, from the New Groups column - NORTH CAROLINA—Dunn. GV Aug48, from Calendar of Events: November 5-6-7—North Carolina Groups; First Annual Convention, Charlotte, N. C. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5981. . . . . . . . . . . . Who suffered from grave emotional and mental disorders? From: katiebartlett79 . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/22/2009 10:45:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi, Katie from Barking Big Book study, The Way Out. Chapter 5, How It Works, first paragraph: "There are those, too, who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest." In the period before the Big Book was written, do we know the names of any specific people who got sober in AA in spite of the fact that they suffered from "grave emotional and mental disorders"? On what specific experience(s) were they basing this statement? Thanks IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5982. . . . . . . . . . . . Review of Bill White''s book Slaying the Dragon From: allan_gengler . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/26/2009 9:08:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII John Barton , in a message about Bill W. and High Watch Farm, wrote: > > See William L. White, "Slaying the Dragon: > The History of Addiction Treatment and Recovery > in America ," pages 172-175. Here's a pretty good book review of that book, which looks very interesting: http://www.unhooked.com/booktalk/slaying_the_dragon.htm - - - - From GC the moderator: For those who do not know about Bill White's book, it is on Charlie Bishop's list of the Fifty Best Books to read for a good understanding of A.A. history: http://hindsfoot.org/fiftybk.html IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5983. . . . . . . . . . . . First AA group in Louisiana From: Dale T. Doucet . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/25/2009 12:21:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII First registered group in Louisiana: New Orleans Group May 1943 - 12 members They organized in March 1943, and were listed in the Times Picayune** with an invitation for all with a drinking problem to come to an organizational meeting. The first lone member in New Orleans was in August 1942. Louisiana's first contact with New York was in 1940. (thanks Jimmy H.) - - - - **The Times Picayune is the famous New Orleans newspaper, founded in 1837, when it sold for a Spanish coin called a picayune, worth one sixteenth of a U.S. dollar. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5984. . . . . . . . . . . . From the Grapevine: North Dakota From: t . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/21/2009 7:09:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII North Dakota GV Aug45, from the News Circuit column: In Fargo, N. D., a pastor speaking before a businessmen's club, said the basis for A. A. 's effectiveness was "spiritual. " GV Aug46, from the New Groups column - NORTH DAKOTA—Cando, Fargo, Grand Forks and Kenmare. GV Nov46, from the New Groups column - NORTH DAKOTA—Beach. GV Dec46, from the New Groups column - NORTH DAKOTA—Jamestown. GV Mar47, from the New Groups column - NORTH DAKOTA—New Rockford. GV Nov47, from the News Circuit column: Jamestown, N. D,, Group, which was organized September 28, 1946, observed its first anniversary recently with the two members of the St. Paul, Minn., Group who started the organization returning for the meeting to present year pins to three of the original group. During the year the Group has tripled in growth and in becoming associated with the North Dakota State hospital in the city has aided with hospitalized alcoholics as a major part of its 12th Step work. More than 30 patients have been exposed to A.A. through this group and have been sent out to other groups or to organize their own groups in some other part of the state. The project for the coming year will be to acquaint better the local and civic community with the workings and benefits of A.A. GV Jly48, article titled "A New Club Room Comes From Price Of A Cup of Coffee" A year ago there were 15 of us ex-stews in Fargo. Number 16, upon completion of hospitalization for his last drunk—that is —nervous breakdown—asked a 12th Stepper to pay for his coffee. Because, he said, all he had to his name was a silver dollar which had come his way the day he was released. This A.A. neophyte, still thinking alcoholically, saw an opportunity for a free cup of coffee. The old 12th Stepper saw hope. Fargo's ex-Scotch-drinking Scotchman and intellectual par excellence visualized a symbol. Says Mac, "And your carrying the silver as a Symbol of Sobriety?" So our group became the S.O.S. Group of Fargo. We purchased a new clubhouse . . . SILVER DOLLAR, SYMBOL OF SOBRIETY, SOCIETY OF FARGO, NORTH DAKOTA, and became a non-profit corporation set up in accordance with the laws of North Dakota for giving the philosophy of A.A. and holding property. Perhaps we were piqued when we were tagged the Society of Soaks. Because that Silver Dollar was our own non-abstract symbol of the abstract philosophy freeing US from desperate terrifying distress . . . even as it is the international call of distress. And should we reach for the change for that first drink there is that 1922 mint dollar, with our initials and dry date suitably inscribed, reminding us of our morning pledge. Why even the United States Mint cooperated with the words . . . "In God We Trust"! ! ! Humorous Suggestions Yes, we were even flattered when such humorous suggestions as "Shakes Over Scotch"—"Scarcity of Stimulants"—"Solicitors of Stews"—"Soaks Often Shaky" . . . and such sober truths as "Surrender or Stumble"—"Slippers Often Skeptical"— "Soaks Open Sanitarium"—"Scotch, Opiates, Stumblebums" . . . were proposed. Now there are 50 of us ... and that Silver Dollar???? JUST ASK THE MAN WHO OWNS ONE! ! ! !— E.V.G., Fargo, N. D. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5985. . . . . . . . . . . . Beginnings of AA in New Hampshire From: Bob Kelley . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/27/2009 7:48:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII New Hampshire A.A. Chronology - Alcoholic Anonymous . New Hampshire . Area 43 1946 - 2003 JUNE 1946 In the 1962 Delegate report Glen E. S. said that in Portsmouth (1946) there were some closed private AA meetings in Lawyer Arthur M.'s office. Then a man by by the name of Arthur D. came from Boston. Arthur came from a family of musicians that liked to hassle the Italians whenever they could and there was old J.B., a well-known businessman in Portsmouth. They had AA meetings in Banker Bill W.'s House on Middle Street. Later the meetings moved to the Portsmouth Community Center. AUGUST 1946 Our first organized A.A. Group was in Manchester in August of 1946. A woman by the name of Mary W. who got sober in New Rochelle N.Y. went to the City Hall in Manchester and spoke with Judge Chretien and Monsignor James McGreal about starting an AA meeting, they liked the idea and gave her a meeting place in the City Hall building. This meeting eventually disbanded and in August of 1947 The Brookside Original AA Group was founded. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5986. . . . . . . . . . . . Is there a work called "Widows of AA"? From: juan.aa98 . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/27/2009 9:31:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Is there a pamphlet or other piece of literature called "Widows of AA" ? I have run across a reference to it, but do not know if it actually exists. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5987. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Review of Bill White''s book Slaying the Dragon From: diazeztone . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/26/2009 9:20:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Bill White's Slaying the Dragon, ever since its publication, has also been on the AA Bibliography website and its beginner's "Recommended AA History Readings": http://aabibliography.com/beginnersbooks.htm http://aabibliography.com/pdffiles/beginbksbibliography.pdf (list updated Jan 09) I have two other book reviews of this book I need to post, one by myself and one by another person. I always wanted my site or some other site to have a book review area like the one where the review of Bill White's book appeared: The Life Ring site at http://www.unhooked.com/ with the book reviews on its Book Talk section at http://lsrbooks.blogspot.com/ I have tried to imitate this on my own on the aabibliography.com site, but not with much success. The secular Life Ring folks seem to have much advanced, and have had much more dedication and concentration on reviewing books about drug addiction, alcoholism and even Alcoholics Anonymous, than the AA's and Alanons have. Of course a blog posting web setup like the one they have is much more efficient than the way I had wanted to do it on the aabibliography site. (Even unhooked.com has changed from older manual format to blog format.) This site (unhooked.com) also reviews White's other book "Inebriates," which I do not own. LD Pierce aabibliograpy.com - - - - In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "allan_gengler" wrote: > > John Barton , in a message about > Bill W. and High Watch Farm, wrote: > > > > See William L. White, "Slaying the Dragon: > > The History of Addiction Treatment and Recovery > > in America ," pages 172-175. > > Here's a pretty good book review of that book, > which looks very interesting: > > http://www.unhooked.com/booktalk/slaying_the_dragon.htm > > - - - - > > From GC the moderator: For those who do not > know about Bill White's book, it is on Charlie > Bishop's list of the Fifty Best Books to read > for a good understanding of A.A. history: > > http://hindsfoot.org/fiftybk.html > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5988. . . . . . . . . . . . From the Grapevine: Louisiana From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/28/2009 4:18:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: t (tcumming at nc.rr.com) Louisiana GV Mar45, in the News Circuit column: "A.A.s of the lush, bayou country of Baton Rouge, Louisiana, wisely stress the lack of "moral lecturing" in their publicity." GV Apr45, in the News Circuit column: "Our school system is gradually being instructed in A. A. Paul C. Young of the Louisiana State University faculty was recently quoted in the state newspapers for his enthusiastic support of our program." GV Dec45, in the News Circuit column: noted Louisiana as being one of the eleven states represented at the first regional AA convention in Birmingham Ala. GV Feb46, in the News Circuit column: "Baton Rouge, La., A.A.s, at their first anniversary meeting, were hosts to representative groups from New Orleans, Covington, Bogalusa, Hammond, Franklinton, Gonzales, Plaquemine, and Tylertown, Miss. One of the guest speakers was the Rev. Henry A. Rickey of Bogalusa, who attended the Yale School of Alcohol Studies last summer; another was Dr. Glenn J. Smith, superintendent of the East Louisiana Hospital at Jackson, who spoke of how much the people of the state were being benefited by the work of A.A. . . . The 400 members of the eight St. Louis, Mo., Groups have held their fifth anniversary meeting. " GV Mar46, in the News Circuit column: "A series of seven articles on A.A. have been prepared by the Shreveport, La., Group and are now appearing in the Shreveport Times. " GV Apr46, in the New Groups column mentions- Covington, West Monroe and Minden, La.; GV Apr46, in the New Circuit column: " A Baton Rouge, La., A.A. spoke at a luncheon of the Cooperative Club of that city. In the same state, the Alexandria Group is now holding meetings in the Salvation Army's Red Shield center. GV May46, in the New Circuit column: "Covington, La., A.A.s, whose membership encompasses Amita, Bogalusa, Franklinton, Hammond and Ponchatoula, are running a series of newspaper articles on alcoholism and A.A." GV June46, in the New Circuit column: The New Orleans, La., Group, started March 30, 1943, has grown to an active membership of almost 200. They have been instrumental in assisting to organize groups in Covington, Abbeville, and Pollack, La.; and Tylertown, Miss. The latest one started on the Mississippi Gulf Coast includes members from Gulfport, Biloxi, and other towns in the vicinity. This group was suggested by the major in charge of the Veterans Hospital at Gulfport, who is interested in A.A. work. The same applies to the Marine Hospital in New Orleans, where the chief psychiatrist is a friend of A.A. and has made some several talks before the group." "...Shreveport, La., members have helped the Minden Group to get started with two meetings weekly. . . . " GV June46, in the New Groups column mentions- LOUISIANA -- Monroe. GV Aug46, in the New Groups column mentions- LOUISIANA -- Baton Rouge (Capital Area Group). GV Oct46, in the News Circuit column: Two more groups, New Orleans and Houston, have participated in CBS's "Quiz of Two Cities" program. New Orleans came off the winner. . . . A.A.s from New Orleans addressed the Hammond, La., Group; attending were members from chapters which derived from the original New Orleans Group: Hammond, Covington, and Houma, La.; Tylertown and Gulfport, Miss. Quite a few veterans are coming into the New Orleans chapter, direct from the Veterans Hospital -- where the medical staff is 100% for A.A. GV Jan47, in the News Circuit column: "Doctor, Psychiatrist Speak. -- Signing the letter "A-lways A-chieving," the A.A. Grapevine correspondent from New Orleans reports Tuesday night open meetings have heard a prominent doctor of psychiatry, who agrees with the A.A. program, and a national business executive who recommends it. Visitors from many places have visited the club room at 1113 Chartres Street in the basement of General Beauregard's former home and good Louisiana coffee is promised to all who come that way." GV Feb47, in the News Circuit column: "Group Branches Out. -- Covington , La. Group has started to include the towns of Hammond, Bogalusa and surrounding rural areas since its founding in November, 1945. After the usual growing pains about a dozen are continuously sober with two new members celebrating their first year at a supper recently. Bogalusa will have its own group in the near future and Hammond is expected to have a separate one soon. The three towns may then hold an open meeting each month with each town holding its own weekly meeting. Much cooperation has been received from the New Orleans Group." GV Mar47, in the New Groups column mentions- LOUISIANA -- Crawley. GV June47, in the New Groups column mentions- LOUISIANA -- Shreveport (Caddo Group). GV Jly47, in the New Groups column mentions- LOUISIANA -- Maplewood (Calcasieu Parish Group). GV Jly47, in the News Circuit column: "Still We Spread -- The Calcasieu Parish Group of A. A. with membership from Lake Charles, Sulphur and Maplewood, La., has been formed with other towns nearby listed as Vinton, De Ridder, De Quincy, Kinder and Jennings. Meetings are at the Charleston Hotel in Lake Charles, Room 201 at 7:30 on Thursday. The phone number is Lake Charles 4287 and the post office box 2584, Maplewood. " GV Jly47, in the Clip Sheet column: "New Orleans, La., States: "This evening A.A. makes one of its rare public appearances, the purpose being to explain to the public its manner of throwing the life-line to tragic, helpless and all but hopeless members of society. New Orleans has its share, and probably more, of the 300,000 alcoholics in the nation and the 7,000,000 persons in the country who drink more than they should or is good for them. The excessive drinker has a sickness, It is not a sickness that yields to ordinary medical or surgical treatment. it is not one that can be treated in clinic or hospital with a good prospect of success. But it can be treated, and is, with conspicuous success by this organization of anonymous practitioners." GV Sept47, in the News Circuit column: "60 At First Open Meeting -- The Calcasieu Parish Group held its first open meeting at Lake Charles, La., in July, with M. H. of Memphis as the guest speaker and 20 A.A.s and about 40 friends and relatives attending. Not only have several calls been received by the group since the meeting; the newspaper announcement of it also brought forth a couple who were formerly affiliated with the Kansas City, Kan., and Corpus Christ! Groups, and didn't know of the existence of a chapter in their new home." GV Oct47, in the New Groups column mentions- LOUISIANA -- Welch. GV Feb48, in the New Groups column mentions- LOUISIANA -- Houma GV Mar48, in the New Groups column mentions- LOUISIANA -- Hammond GV June48, in the New Groups column mentions- LOUISIANA -- LaFayette. GV Jly48, in the New Groups column mentions- LOUISIANA -- Natchitoches; Oak Grove, Caroll Group. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5989. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Is there a work called Widows of AA? From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/28/2009 6:12:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII One major list of AA pamphlets can be found on the silkworth.net site. Early to present pamphlets can be found here, both those published by the New York AA office, and those published by various AA groups, along with their history: http://silkworth.net/aa/aa_pamphlets.html Silkworth is a great site -- the answers to many archival questions can be found here. Yours in Service, Shakey Mike Gwirtz Phila, PA USA see you at NAW in Ca. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5990. . . . . . . . . . . . Beginnings of AA in Louisiana: Baton Rouge From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/28/2009 4:49:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The first A.A. meeting in Baton Rouge was held on December 10, 1944, at 720 Laurel Street. Tommy H in Baton Rouge - - - - See Grapevine reference in AAHL Message No. 5988 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/5988 from: t (tcumming at nc.rr.com) >GV Feb46, in the News Circuit column: >"Baton Rouge, La., A.A.s, at their first anniversary >meeting, were hosts to representative >groups from New Orleans, Covington, Bogalusa, >Hammond, Franklinton, Gonzales, Plaquemine, >and Tylertown, Miss. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5991. . . . . . . . . . . . AA in Louisiana: Beauregard House in New Orleans (with photos) From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/28/2009 4:45:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Beauregard House at 1113 Chartres Street in New Orleans: See Grapevine reference in AAHL Message No. 5988 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/5988 from: t (tcumming at nc.rr.com) >GV Jan47, in the News Circuit column: >"Doctor, Psychiatrist Speak. -- Signing the >letter "A-lways A-chieving," the A.A. Grapevine >correspondent from New Orleans reports >Tuesday night open meetings have heard a >prominent doctor of psychiatry, who agrees >with the A.A. program, and a national business >executive who recommends it. Visitors from >many places have visited the club room at 1113 >Chartres Street in the basement of General Beauregard's >former home and good Louisiana coffee >is promised to all who come that way." This is the famous Beauregard House. When we go to New Orleans, we stay at a motel on that same corner of Chartres and Ursulines. T - - - - PHOTO OF THE BEAUREGARD HOUSE: Tommy, This is the Beauregard House that is being referred to, isn't it? http://new-orleans.travelape.com/attractions/beauregard-keyes-house/ In the Old French Quarter of New Orleans, along Chartres Street, lies an architectural jewel in the Palladian and Louisiana raised-cottage style - the Beauregard House. Built in 1826 by the French auctioneer Joseph LeCarpentier, Beauregard House stands on land purchased from the Ursuline nuns whose convent is across the street. Designed by the Spaniard architect Francisco Correjolles, the cottage was built as the residence of LeCarpentier. The famous chess master Paul Morphy (son of LeCarpentier's daughter and Judge Alonzo Morphy) was born here in 1837. The building was named after the Confederate hero Beauregard, a native New Orleanian who rented rooms here after the Civil War. After passing through the hands of many owners, the home almost became a macaroni factory in 1925. That fate was halted when concerned citizens formed the Beauregard Memorial Association. The home sat is disrepair until purchased in 1944 by novelist Frances Parkinson Keys and she commissioned the restoration. She used the home as a winter residence and wrote several of her novels here including 'Dinner at Antoine's'. She furnished the home with several original Beauregard pieces and memorabilia as well as her own collections. There are five portraits in the home of Beauregard, his daughter, and his granddaughters which belonged to the Beauregard family. Ms. Keys had impressive collections - ceiling fans, over 200 dolls from all over the world, and veilleuse (tiny teapots) - all here on display. The home is a lovely representation of the times. The lower level of the raised cottage, originally an above-ground basement, was used for storage and a wine cellar. - - - - OTHER PHOTOS AT: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Chartres_Street,_French_Quarter http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:BeauregardHouseChartresDown1900s.jpg - - - - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Register_of_Historic_Places_listings_i n_Or\ leans_Parish,_Louisiana [19] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:FQ29Jan07BeauregardHouse3.jpg - - - - Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5992. . . . . . . . . . . . Who are you sitting next to? From: Elisabeth . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/29/2009 2:18:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi All, A while ago, www.silkworth.net had a story on their website called "Who are you sitting next to?" Does anyone have that story either downloaded or have a link to it? I can't find it on the website, it seems to have disappeared. :-( I used that for the topic in a meeting. It was about the closed insider "clique" in an AA group seeing a newcomer/out-of-Towner, and not acknowledging them at all at the meeting. After that meeting that I called on that topic was over and to this day, a lot of the people in that group are still deliberately welcoming strangers at meetings, like we are supposed to. I would really like to get a copy of that story so I could use it again. Can anyone help? Elisabeth IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5993. . . . . . . . . . . . Spanish AA History From: juan.aa98 . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/21/2009 9:54:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have found that the first ever Spanish AA literature came out of Mexico in 1947. The Akron A.A. pamphlet was translated in Nuevo Leon in Mexico by a wife, Francisca Gonzalez, wanting to get her husband sober. She later divorced him for not being able to stay sober. That is the first piece of Spanish AA literature to be mass produced. Dick Perez made the first translation of the AA Big Book into Spanish, completed in early 1946 with his wife doing most of the work. It took them three years. His version never made it to mass production. It is a mystery what happened to it. It was turned over to Bill W. but it is yet to be found. In late 1947, a Puerto Rican professional translator, Frank Muniz, also translated the Big Book. There are four main versions of the book in Spanish: the Puerto Rican, Mexican, Salvadorian, and Colombian, and each has its own quirky history. There was even a Castillian Spanish version made by Carlos Camara in Mexico in 1962 for the more "high society" AA readers. For North and South American Spanish speakers, it sounded like a translation of the Big Book into Shakespearean English. But that is a translation widely used today. Looking through the different translations and editions from different countries -- Mexico, El Salvador, Colombia, Spain, and Puerto Rico -- there are some words, phrases and ideas lost in translation. The New York central office pushed so that by 1961 all basic AA material was available in Spanish. But the gap from 1947-1961 gave rise to Spanish-speaking temperance/AA groups that came and went. The first actual Spanish-speaking group did not actually begin until the late 1950's, but is still there. The first group in Mexico or anywhere else in Latin America was an English-speaking group in the late 1940's. This gap in the availability of Spanish AA literature was an important reason for some of the major divisions in the Spanish program today. So we have the fact that in Mexico there are now two different central offices, AA Mexico and AA Seccion Mexico. The start of AA in Guatemala, the birth place of the Podium, was very interesting. In El Salvador, the Little Red Book was translated very early on, and was more widely used than the Big Book during the early days. The early financial sponsorship of the Colombian AA Central Office by a Colombian tobacco company shaped some of the struggles in Colombia. The first translation of the Big Book in Columbia was done by a typing school, copy by copy. They were distributed mistakes and all -- not one of those books is alike. I am working with New York, Akron, Puerto Rico, Mexico, El Salvador, and Cleveland to try to piece together more of this information. There will be a display of this at the National Archive Conference next month. > > > The 13th National Archives Workshop, > > > Sept 24-27, 2009, in Woodland Hills, > > > California, a western suburb of Los Angeles: > > > http://www.aanationalarchivesworkshop.com/ In Spanish-speaking AA history, an important contribution was made by Al-Anons, the wives of these men, whom they were instrumental in getting sober. The other big contribution came from sober AA members willing to translate and publish non-New York literature helpful to early AA's, like the Little Red Book, Father John Doe's Golden Books, and different letters and articles from the Grapevine published by now non-existent sobriety publications from the 50's and 60's. The AA people in Mexico and some of the archivists in the US have been very helpful in my search. But any other Spanish literature or information that anyone would like to share to continue solving some of these puzzles would be appreciated. My email address is: juan.aa98@yahoo.com (juan.aa98 at yahoo.com) I hope to see you at the Archive Conference in September. God bless Juan R. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5994. . . . . . . . . . . . Dick Perez''s daughter? (about the 1st Spanish translation) From: juan.aa98 . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/27/2009 2:18:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does anyone know how to contact Dick Perez's daughter? As mentioned in my earlier message, Dick Perez made the first translation of the AA Big Book into Spanish, which was completed in early 1946. His version was never published, as far as I have to been able to tell, and it is a mystery what happened to it. It was turned over to Bill W. but it is yet to be found. I am now attempting to interview Dick Perez's daughter, to see if I can find out more. I have been told that she lives in southern California. Could any AA historians from California or Cleveland tell me how I could make contact with her? My email address is: juan.aa98@yahoo.com (juan.aa98 at yahoo.com) This would be an important contribution to the history of Spanish-speaking AA. God bless Juan R. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5995. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Who are you sitting next to? From: aadavidi . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/29/2009 3:02:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Google search turned up: The Home Group: Who's Sitting Next to You? AA Grapevine, March 1991 See the Grapevine Digital Archive http://www.aagrapevine.org/da/ Here's the silkworth.net link: http://silkworth.net/grapevine/home_group.html IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5996. . . . . . . . . . . . Who''s sitting next to you? From: behunter34453 . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/29/2009 4:50:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII WHO'S SITTING NEXT TO YOU? I know who you are. You are "X" who attends the ABC Meeting at the XYZ Club where AAs meet in Anywhere, U.S.A. I saw you there the other night at the eight o'clock meeting. I don't know how long you've been sober, but I know you've been coming around for a while because you spoke to a lot of people who knew you. I wasn't one of them. You don't know who I am. I wandered into your meeting place alone the other night, a stranger in a strange town. I got a cup of coffee, paid for it, and sat down by myself. You didn't speak to me. Oh, you saw me. You glanced my way, but you didn't recognize me, so you quickly averted your eyes and sought out a familiar face. I sat there through the meeting. It was okay, a slightly different format but basically the same kind of meeting as the one I go to at home. The topic was gratitude. You and your friends spoke about how much AA means to you. You talked about the camaraderie in your meeting place. You said how much the people there had helped you when you first came through the door - how they extended the hand of friendship to make you feel welcome, and asked you to come back. And I wondered where they had gone, those nice people who made your entrance so welcoming and so comfortable. You talked about how the newcomer is the life blood of AA. I agree, but I didn't say so. In fact, I didn't share in your meeting. I signed my name in the book that was passed around, but the chairperson didn't refer to it. He only called on those people in the room whom he knew. So who am I? You don't know, because you didn't bother to find out. Although yours was a closed meeting, you didn't even ask if I belonged there. It might have been my first meeting. I could have been full of fear and distrust, knowing AA wouldn't work any better than anything else I'd tried, and I would have left convinced that I was right. I might have been suicidal, grasping at one last straw, hoping someone would reach out and pull me from the pit of loathing and self-pity from which, by myself, I could find no escape. I might have been a student with a tape recorder in my pocket, assigned to write a paper on how AA works - someone who shouldn't have been permitted to sit there at all but could have been directed to an open meeting to learn what I needed to know. Or I could have been sent by the courts, wanting to know more, but afraid to ask. It happens that I was none of the above. I was just an ordinary drunk with a few years of sober living in AA who was traveling and was in need of a meeting. My only problem that night was that I'd been alone with my own mind too long. I just needed to touch base with my AA family. I know from past experience that I could have walked into your meeting place smiling, stuck out my hand to the first person I saw and said, "Hi. My name is - . I'm an alcoholic from - ." If I'd felt like doing that, I probably would have been warmly welcomed. You would have asked me if I knew Old So-and-so from my state, or you might have shared a part of your drunkalog that occurred in my part of the country. Why didn't I? I was hungry, lonely, and tired. The only thing missing was angry, but three out of four isn't a good place for me to be. So I sat silently through your meeting, and when it was over I watched enviously as all of you gathered in small groups, talking to one another the same way we do in my home town. You and some of your friends were planning a meeting after the meeting at a nearby coffee shop. By this time I had been silent too long to reach out to you. I stopped by the bulletin board to read the notices there, kind of hanging around without being too obvious, hoping you might ask if I wanted to join you, but you didn't. As I walked slowly across the parking lot to my car with the out-of-state license plates you looked my way again. Our eyes met briefly and I mustered a smile. Again, you looked away. I buckled my seat belt, started the car, and drove to the motel where I was staying. As I lay in my bed waiting for sleep to come, I made a gratitude list. You were on it, along with your friends at the meeting place. I knew that you were there for me, and that I needed you far more than you needed me. I knew that if I had needed help, and had asked for it, you would have gladly given it. But I wondered . . . what if I hadn't been able to ask? I know who you are. Do you remember me? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5997. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr. Silkworth''s home in Little Silver, New Jersey From: silkworthdotnet . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/29/2009 10:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In the following article, close to the end, it makes mention of Dr. William Duncan Silkworth, MD commuting from a small house in Little Silver to work. Does anyone have pictures and/or the address of this little house mentioned in the following article? ================================== The Roundtable of AA History January 10, 1998 WILLIAM DUNCAN SILKWORTH, MD (1873-1951) From Mike O., of The Just Do It Big Book Study Group of Alcoholics Anonymous, DeBary, Florida. Doctor William D. Silkworth, called, "the little doctor who loved drunks", began an indispensable contribution to Alcoholics Anonymous during the early 1930's from his position as medical director of Charles B. Towns Hospital, 293 Central Park West (89th street), New York, N.Y. Towns, founded in 1901, was well known then as a rich man's drying-out place; a rehab for the wealthy, and it served a worldwide clientele. American millionaires, European royalty and oil sheiks from the middle east walked its halls, side by side: brothers in humiliation in bathrobes and slippers. It was Dr. Silkworth who told Bill Wilson, during the summer of 1933, of the nature of alcoholism: that, in his opinion, the problem had nothing to do with vice or habit or lack of character. It was, he said, an illness with both mental and physical components. Silkworth is quoted widely as calling the illness a combination of "---an obsession of the mind that condemns one to drink and an allergy of the body that condemns one to die" or go mad if one continues to ingest alcohol. Dr. Silkworth was not the first highly respected authority to write about alcoholism. Solomon, considered the wise man of his era, wrote about it in Proverbs, Chapter 23, and Verses 29 through 35. Solomon's Biblical words seem an accurate description of the alcoholic of today. Dr. Benjamin Rush, one of the signers of The Declaration of Independence, was the first member of the medical community to write about alcoholism and suggest it might be an illness. In a medical paper he wrote in 1784, Dr. Rush said he thought alcoholism was "-a disease process." He offered no further clinical evidence. So: Dr. Silkworth, it appears, was the first medical person to detail alcoholism, in writing, as an illness. Silkworth, thus, disagreed with his employer, Charles B. Towns. Towns, who had once claimed to have a "cure" for alcoholism, believed firmly in a physiological, medical model of addiction. But, he denied that alcoholism, per se, was a disease. Silkworth argued that certain individuals were "constitutionally susceptible to sensitization by alcohol" and that drinking sparked an allergic reaction. This, he insisted, made it physically impossible for an alcoholic ever to tolerate alcohol. Moreover, he said, that problem drinkers would have to learn and accept this fact as part of their treatment. Silkworth played a major role in many of the early recoveries from active alcoholism, particularly those in New York. It's estimated that he treated forty-thousand alcoholics during his career. The introduction to his writings in the book, "Alcoholics Anonymous" says early AA members considered the Brooklyn-born Silkworth no less than a medical saint. Dr. Silkworth advised Bill Wilson to stop preaching at the drunks he was trying to help by telling them about his powerful spiritual experience. Silkworth urged Wilson to begin, instead, by telling each of the alcoholics that his condition was hopeless, a matter of life-or-death. Only then, Silkworth believed, would the drunks be willing to listen to a story about a spiritual remedy. Through no fault of the doctor's, there is disagreement about parts of his professional history and about his birth year. In Silkworth's biography in the book, "Dictionary of American Temperance Biography: From Temperance Reform to Alcohol Research, the 1600s to the 1980s," the historian Mark Edward Lender lists Silkworth's date of birth as July 22, 1877. All other sources used in this compilation, which contain a date of birth for Silkworth, including his New York Times obituary, agree that Silkworth's birth year was 1873. It's agreed, generally, that Silkworth graduated from Princeton University (A.B. 1896) and that he took his M.D. degree from New York University-Bellevue Medical School (1899). But, two principal sources, "Pass It On," published by Alcoholics Anonymous, and, "Not-God," researched and written by the widely respected historian Ernest Kurtz, Ph.D and published by Hazleden, offer differing versions of his career path thereafter. "Pass It On," (p. 101) reports Silkworth became a specialist in neurology, a domain that sometimes overlaps psychiatry, and entered private practice in the 1920's. It says Silkworth invested his savings in a stock subscription for a new, private hospital. "Pass It On" says Silkworth's investment came with the promise of a staff position when the hospital was built. But, the report says Silkworth lost everything in the stock market collapse of 1929. And,"Pass It On" quotes Bill Wilson as saying that Silkworth, in desperation, went to Towns in 1930 for compensation of about forty dollars a week, plus board. "Not-God," (p. 22) reports that after he received his medical degree from NYU, Silkworth began a coveted internship during 1900 at Bellevue Hospital, 462 First Avenue (27th. Street), in Manhattan. It says that in 1924-after completing specialty training as a neuro-psychiatrist---Silkworth became medical director of Towns. "Not-God" notes that Dr. Silkworth estimated his patients' rate of recovery, until Bill Wilson came along, at "approximately only two percent." So: "Pass It On" and "Not-God" show a six-year difference in Silkworth's arrival date at Towns. A third source offers a wider time differential but more information about Silkworth. The respected Journal of Studies on Alcohol, published monthly by The Center of Alcohol Studies at Rutgers University, New Brunswick, New Jersey reports Silkworth arrived at Towns in 1932. An article by Leonard Blumberg, (Professor of Sociology, Temple University, Philadelphia Vol. 38. No. 11, 1977, "The Ideology of a Therapeutic Social Movement: Alcoholics Anonymous") says Dr. Silkworth worked at Towns from 1932 until his death in 1951. Silkworth's entire career had a psychiatric emphasis. He was a member of the psychiatric staff at the US. Army Hospital in Plattsburgh, New York, for two years (1917-1919) during World War I. Dr. Silkworth also served as associate physician at the Neurological Institute of Presbyterian Hospital in Manhattan from 1919 to 1929. He had also been connected with Broad Street Hospital. The Blumberg article leaves room for speculation about the circumstances under which Silkworth left the prestigious Presbyterian Hospital in 1929. It concludes that he probably was laid off during a staff reduction following the stock market crash of that same year. The article does not attempt to fill the time vacuum of approximately three years until it says Silkworth went to Towns. Regardless of his starting date at Towns, Wilson said Silkworth's arrival there was the turning point in the doctor's life. Nearly all sources agree that he worked there approximately nineteen years. Additionally, Dr. Silkworth was a major influence in persuading the management of Knickerbocker Hospital in upper Manhattan to set aside a small ward, beginning in 1945, for the treatment of alcoholics. Knickerbocker was the first general hospital in New York to do so. (This is significant because many general hospitals at that time would not admit alcoholics as alcoholics. Their doctors had to admit them under false diagnoses.) Dr. Silkworth served six years at Knickerbocker as director of alcoholic treatment, attending an estimated seven thousand alcoholics. Teddy R., a nurse who was an AA member, ran the alcoholism ward. Figures as to costs at Knickerbocker are unconfirmable. But, the fees and other expenses there were much less than at Towns, where patients paid $125.00 for one week of treatment, during the early and mid-1930's. At Knickerbocker, drunks off the street with no financial resources were de-toxified. William Duncan Silkworth died Thursday morning, March 22, 1951 of heart attack at his home, 45 W. 81st. Street, New York. He and his wife, Marie, had lived in Manhattan during their later years. But, it's known that he commuted for part of the time he worked in New York from a home in Little Silver, New Jersey. Today, there's a train station about one block away from that house, which-as of this writing -- is still standing. But, it's unclear whether the train station was there at the time Silkworth lived in Little Silver. As noted previously, the book, "Alcoholics Anonymous," reports that early AA members considered Dr. Silkworth a "---medical saint." It was never a secret that his personal relationship with Alcoholics Anonymous was both deep and emotional. He was called, "-the little doctor who loved drunks" because he genuinely cared for and experienced communion with alcoholics. And, they loved him. An in-depth explanation can be found in, "Language of The Heart," (p. 176). In an article he wrote years later for The Grapevine, Bill Wilson noted that Dr. Silkworth treated some 40,000 alcoholics during his career. Wilson added, "He never tired of drunks and their problems. A frail man, he never complained of fatigue. During most of his career he made only a bare living. He never sought distinction; his work was his reward. In his last years, he ignored a heart condition and died on the job--among us drunks, and with his boots on." All but one of the AA historians who influenced this writing believe that Dr. Silkworth held positions at both Towns and Knickerbocker Hospitals at the time of his death. But, it should be noted that the respected AA historian and author Mel B., who wrote much of "Pass It On," the official AA biography of Bill Wilson, mentions only Silkworth's affiliation with Knickerbocker Hospital at the time of the doctor's death. Wilson showed his gratitude to Silkworth in 1950 and '51, when he and some associates tried to raise enough money to allow "Silkie" and Marie, to retire to New Hampshire. The doctor was going to be medical director of the treatment center, Beech Hill Farm, near Dublin, New Hampshire. But, Silkworth died before it could happen. So: Bill, noting Mrs. Silkworth's strained financial circumstances, raised $25,000 for a Silkworth Memorial, to supplement the widow's small income. Dr. Silkworth's death was announced to the Fellowship in the April 1951 version of the AA Grapevine. And, the article indicates AAs of that time considered Silkworth more than a "medical saint." To those AA's who knew him, William Duncan Silkworth was a hero. The April 1951 Grapevine article notes, "He freely risked his professional reputation to champion an unprecedented spiritual answer to the medical enigma and the human tragedy of alcoholism." Historians point out that he might have been laughed out of the American Medical Association for holding such a view. Obviously, that did not happen. Wilson, who previously had referred to Dr. Silkworth as "-AA's first and best friend" eulogized Silkworth in the May 1951 Grapevine. And, his affection and sense of personal loss is expressed in a notation on a copy of the appeal for funds (found in the archives of the General Service Conference of A.A.) It says, "Thank Heaven we started this before Silkie went." The Wilson article, written especially for The Grapevine, concludes with two questions: "Who of us in AA can match this record of Dr. Silkworth's? Who has his measure of fortitude, faith and dedication?". SOURCES: The AA publications: "Alcoholics Anonymous", "Pass It On", "The Grapevine" and "Language of The Heart"; the Archives of the AA General Service Office; "Not-God" by Ernest Kurtz; "The Journal of Studies on Alcohol 1977" which contained "The Ideology of a Therapeutic Social Movement: Alcoholics Anonymous." by Leonard Blumberg: published by The Center of Alcohol Studies, Rutgers University); "Dictionary of American Temperance Biography: From Temperance Reform to Alcohol Research, the 1600s to the 1980s" by Mark Edward Lender; "Lois Remembers" by Lois Burnham Wilson; "My Search For Bill W" by Mel B.; Yale University; New York University and private conversations with AA's who knew Dr. Silkworth. I'm grateful for the above sources. Any errors are my own. Researched/written for: The Round Table of AA History by Mike O. (Michael O'Neil) of The Just Do It Big Book Study Group of Alcoholics Anonymous, DeBary, Florida. Updated/revised: 1999, 2000, and 2001. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5998. . . . . . . . . . . . Meet and greet in San Antonio From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/3/2009 9:24:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII How about AAHL's get a meet and greet at the 2010 AA international convention in San Antonio next year? Anyone interested contact Shakey Mike at shakey1aa@aol.com (shakey1aa at aol.com) I thought perhaps we could get a lunch on Thursday before the convention so we could all meet. Shakey Mike G Phila Pa USA. going to NAW this month in Calif. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5999. . . . . . . . . . . . A publication called the Alconaire From: ckbudnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/5/2009 12:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I'm interested in learning about a publication called the Alconaire. This is possibly a news letter from a local AA committee. I came across a reference to the Alconaire in the October 5, 1952 issue of the Addicts Anonymous newsletter The Key (based out of the US Public Health Services Hospital in Lexington, KY). The article reprinted in the Key is called A. A. Slips and Relapses and appeared as an editorial written by Steve W. in the July/August 1952 issue of the Alconaire. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Chris B. Raleigh, NC (cbudnick at nc.rr.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6000. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: A publication called the Alconaire From: David Jones . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/5/2009 4:42:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There is someone who wrote under the name of 'alconaire' in the Grapevine between 1949 and 1962, you can look the articles up in the digital archive. God bless Dave - - - - > I'm interested in learning about a publication > called the Alconaire. This is possibly a news > letter from a local AA committee. > > I came across a reference to the Alconaire > in the October 5, 1952 issue of the Addicts > Anonymous newsletter The Key (based out of > the US Public Health Services Hospital in > Lexington, KY). > > The article reprinted in the Key is called > A. A. Slips and Relapses and appeared as an > editorial written by Steve W. in the > July/August 1952 issue of the Alconaire. > > Any help would be greatly appreciated. > > Chris B. > Raleigh, NC > > (cbudnick at nc.rr.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6001. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AAHL meet and greet -- San Antonio Internat''l -- July 2010 From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/5/2009 10:08:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: Shakey Mike G. I have gotten about 10 requests for those of us who belong to the AAHistoryLovers to meet at the 2010 International. A really good initial response in 10 hours. I don't know when or where to meet. If the responses keep coming, when I'm at the National Archives Workshop in California September 24 thru 27th, I'll ask Michelle from GSO archives if we can meet Friday morning where the GSO archives are located and perhaps ask her to address the group. If it's a small group, we can meet in my hotel room at the convention center with coffee, cookies and donuts. For now I guess it's best to wait and see. I'll keep all of you informed. Thank You, Shakey (shakey1aa at aol.com) - - - - A.A. INTERNATIONAL CONVENTION San Antonio, Texas -- July 1-4, 2010 http://www.aa.org/lang/en/subpage.cfm?page=199 http://www.aa.org/lang/en/subpage.cfm?page=211 http://www.aa.org/lang/en/subpage.cfm?page=368 http://www.aa.org/lang/en/subpage.cfm?page=369 http://www.visitsanantonio.com/AA2010/index.aspx - - - - Message 5998 from: Shakey Mike G. How about AAHL's get a meet and greet at the 2010 AA international convention in San Antonio next year? Anyone interested contact Shakey Mike at shakey1aa@aol.com (shakey1aa at aol.com) I thought perhaps we could get a lunch on Thursday before the convention so we could all meet. Shakey Mike G, Phila Pa USA IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6002. . . . . . . . . . . . Slips ignored in calculating sober time in pioneering AA days From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/7/2009 9:58:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Interestingly enough, as I work on the history of the early members I have come to the conclusion that a "slip" did not trigger a reset of the sober clock to zero as it does today. I am currently working with two lists; one compiled by Dr. Bob in Jan/Feb of 38 and a New Jersey list from 1/1/1940. Both lists were prepared for the Rockefellers. In both instances "Time" or "Length Dry Mos." is totalized and slips, if listed, (the NJ list), are detailed in a separate column without affecting the dry time. God Bless John B IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6003. . . . . . . . . . . . Harry Emerson Fosdick From: kevinr1211 . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/7/2009 3:24:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Fosdick wrote a series of daily reflection books around the time of the outbreak of WW I. They are really great -- he strongly believed in personal transformation and talked a lot of recovery language and emphasized the importance of fellowship. Fosdick seems to me to be very much spiritually in synch with 12 step approach. Does anyone know whether it was Harry who introduced Bill Wilson to Rockefeller? Does anyone know if Fosdick's books "The Meaning of Faith," "The Meaning of Prayer," and "The Meaning of Service" played a role in early AA? Thanks, Kevin - - - - From Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) Harry Emerson Fosdick (1878-1969) American clergyman, b. Buffalo, N.Y., graduated from Colgate University, 1900, and Union Theological Seminary, 1904. Ordained a Baptist minister in 1903. Fosdick was the most prominent liberal Baptist minister of the early 20th Century. He was Pastor of the First Presbyterian Church on West Twelfth Street and then at historic Riverside Church (formerly Park Avenue Baptist Church) in New York City. Fosdick became a central figure in the conflict between fundamentalist and liberal forces within American Protestantism in the 1920s and 1930s. While at First Presbyterian Church, on May 12, 1922, he delivered his famous sermon “Shall the Fundamentalists Win?” in which he defended the modernist position. In that sermon he presented the Bible as a record of the unfolding of God’s will, not as the literal Word of God. He saw the history of Christianity as one of development, progress, and gradual change. To the fundamentalists, this was rank apostasy, and the battle lines were drawn. A master preacher, liberal thinker and author of 47 books, Harry Emerson Fosdick drew huge congregations and radio audiences as well as famous critics. A Baptist minister, he rose to prominence as the weekly preacher at New York City's First Presbyterian Church (1918-1924). Fundamentalist Christians nationwide attacked his view that "modern Christians" could doubt doctrines such as the literal truth of the Bible and the virgin birth of Jesus and still remain faithful. In a sermon, "Shall the Fundamentalists Win?" (1922), he spoke out against the exclusion of modernists and their views. A Fosdick publicist mailed it to thousands of U.S. churches, fueling the controversy. Not wanting a prolonged national fight with Presbyterian conservatives, Fosdick left and in 1925 became pastor of Park Avenue Baptist Church. The church moved in 1930 to a cathedral-like structure in Upper Manhattan, built by Park Avenue member John D. Rockefeller Jr., and became the interdenominational Riverside Church. Fosdick preached there until his retirement in 1946. In the 1920s, political orator William Jennings Bryan, who faced Clarence Darrow in the Scopes "Monkey Trial," was among Fosdick's fundamentalist Presbyterian attackers. Humanist editor and philosopher Walter Lippmann, in A Preface to Morals (1929), derided Fosdick for lacking dogmatic certainty; Fosdick replied in As I See Religion (1932), an argument for liberal Christianity. Fosdick married Florence Allen Whitney in 1904, the year he became pastor at First Baptist Church, Montclair, N.J. Their daughters were Elinor (born 1911) and Dorothy (1913)... He taught at New York's Union Theological Seminary from 1908 to 1946 ... His "National Vespers Hour" aired for 19 years on NBC and short-wave radio and was heard in 17 countries... Fosdick drew the title of his 1956 autobiography, The Living of These Days, from a verse of his 1930 hymn, "God of Grace and God of Glory"... Fosdick wrote for such popular magazines as Harper's, Atlantic Monthly, and Ladies' Home Journal and was on Time's cover in 1925 and 1930. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Fosdick's famous hymn "God of Grace and God of Glory" (written in 1930) REFERS TO PRIDE AS THE GREAT ENEMY (compare Bill W.'s emphasis on Pride (and egotism and ego run riot) as the root sin in most alcoholics, in both the Big Book and 12 and 12. FOSDICK'S HYMN: God of grace and God of glory, On Thy people pour Thy power. Crown Thine ancient church’s story, Bring her bud to glorious flower. Grant us wisdom, grant us courage, For the facing of this hour, For the facing of this hour. Cure Thy children’s warring madness, Bend our PRIDE to Thy control. Shame our wanton selfish gladness, Rich in things and poor in soul. Grant us wisdom, grant us courage, Lest we miss Thy kingdom’s goal, Lest we miss Thy kingdom’s goal. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Harry Emerson Fosdick’s famous anti-fundamentalist sermon (1922): "SHALL THE FUNDAMENTALISTS WIN?" The most important parts of the sermon are given at: http://amhist.ist.unomaha.edu/module_files/Harry%20Emerson%20Fosdick%20Shall %20t\ he%20Fundamentalists%20Win.rtf [20] The full text of the sermon is given at: http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/5070/ http://baptiststudiesonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/shall-the-fundame ntal\ ists-win.pdf [13] Also see "Classical Protestant Liberalism and Early A.A." at: http://hindsfoot.org/ProtLib.html which also refers to The Upper Room, along with the three German theologians Friedrich Schleiermacher (1768-1834), Albrecht Ritschl (1822-1889), and Adolf Harnack (1851-1930). Also note the American Congregationalist Horace Bushnell (1802-1876). He is important in understanding the Appendix to the Big Book on spiritual experience. Bushnell's book Christian Nurture (1847) stated that in modern America, more and more people were coming into the spiritual life as the result of a kind of "educational experience," as opposed to being converted in a single highly emotional religious experience at a revival. The revivalistic conversion experience had been common on the American frontier, but the United States was now turning into something very different from a wild frontier society. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Well known Protestant liberals in THE OXFORD GROUP: Burnett Hillman Streeter's book "The God Who Speaks" (Warburton Lectures 1933-5, pub. 1936) was an important Oxford Group book. But Streeter also wrote The Four Gospels: A Study of Origins (1924), a liberal study in which he argued that the Gospels did not give the actual words which Jesus spoke with literal accuracy. Matthew and Luke, in particular, were created by people who lived after the time of the original apostles, people who had a copy of Mark and a collection of Jesus' sayings called "Q," and changed Jesus' words around to fit their own literary style and theological speculations. In addition, Matthew and Luke (written between 80 and 90 A.D.) both included a good deal of legendary material, according to Streeter and his followers, which grew up in the fifty to sixty years after Jesus' death. This is important, because the story of the Virgin Birth and the story of the Empty Tomb did not enter the Christian tradition until the gospels of Matthew and Luke were written. Leslie Weatherhead (1893-1976), another liberal Protestant theologian. "How Can I Find God?" was written in 1934. He was a member of the Oxford Group from 1930 to 1939, and was regarded by many as the unofficial head of the Oxford Group in London. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I can find no references anywhere indicating that Dr. Bob or anybody else in early AA was reading CHRISTIAN ENDEAVOUR literature at any point during the formative 15-year period from 1935 to 1950, or recommending that anybody else read that kind of children's literature. Dr. Bob was 55 when he had his last drink. The world of 1935 was very different indeed from the world of his childhood, which was a primitive era back before automobiles or airplanes existed. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The Protestant Christian world in which Dr. Bob lived in 1935 was not the world of the 19th century children's literature propagated by the Christian Endeavour movement. Dr. Bob's world was the LIBERAL PROTESTANT world of Harry Emerson Fosdick, The Upper Room, Reinhold Niebuhr, and liberal Oxford Group thinkers like B. H. Streeter and Leslie Weatherhead. And it was the world of NEW THOUGHT authors like Emmet Fox's Sermon on the Mount and James Allen's As a Man Thinketh. Mel B. wrote me recently and spoke of the importance for Bill Wilson's thought of the Canadian psychiatrist Richard Maurice Bucke's "Cosmic Consciousness: A Study in the Evolution of the Human Mind" (1901). This fit smoothly with the early twentieth century New Thought movement, and it fits even more smoothly into late 20th and early 21st century New Age spirituality. Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6004. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AAHL meet and greet -- San Antonio Internat''l -- July 2010 From: rriley9945@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/6/2009 1:16:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I'd love to meet some of those who post here. I remember from the 2005 International that the GSO Archives was looking for help to man the Archives display. It was a great two-hour stint for me and I heartily recommend it to others as a way of doing service. I hope to help out again if asked. P.S. just a reminder: spots are going quickly for rooms in the San Antonio area. I was online September 1 -- the first day of registration -- and many rooms were sold out already. Bob from Long Island IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6005. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: A publication called the Alconaire From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/6/2009 7:27:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The Alconaire was published "in the interests of Alcoholics Anonymous" by the inmates of the South Dakota State Prison at Sioux Falls SD in the early 1950s. I believe there are copies for six years or so in the South Dakota State University Library. The digital Grapevine archive contains a number of references. > To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > From: cbudnick@nc.rr.com > Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2009 16:47:03 +0000 > Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] A publication called the Alconaire > > I'm interested in learning about a publication > called the Alconaire. This is possibly a news > letter from a local AA committee. > > I came across a reference to the Alconaire > in the October 5, 1952 issue of the Addicts > Anonymous newsletter The Key (based out of > the US Public Health Services Hospital in > Lexington, KY). > > The article reprinted in the Key is called > A. A. Slips and Relapses and appeared as an > editorial written by Steve W. in the > July/August 1952 issue of the Alconaire. > > Any help would be greatly appreciated. > > Chris B. > Raleigh, NC > > > (cbudnick at nc.rr.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6006. . . . . . . . . . . . Addicts Anonymous From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/6/2009 3:32:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Intrigued to read of an Addicts Anonymous newsletter in 1952. Did this fellowship pre-date NA etc? I have recently been in email correspondence with All Addicts Anonymous, which was only founded a short time ago. Did the 1950s Addicts Anonymous group have links with Alcoholics Anonymous? How widespread was its membership? What happened to it? Laurie A. - - - - > I'm interested in learning about a publication > called the Alconaire. This is possibly a news > letter from a local AA committee. > > I came across a reference to the Alconaire > in the October 5, 1952 issue of the Addicts > Anonymous newsletter The Key (based out of > the US Public Health Services Hospital in > Lexington, KY). > > The article reprinted in the Key is called > A. A. Slips and Relapses and appeared as an > editorial written by Steve W. in the > July/August 1952 issue of the Alconaire. > > Any help would be greatly appreciated. > > Chris B. > Raleigh, NC > > (cbudnick at nc.rr.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6007. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Addicts Anonymous From: rriley9945@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/7/2009 6:07:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Addicts Anonymous pre-dates N.A. by several years. Around 1947. An A.A. by the name of Houston was in the Lexington, Kentucky?area near the Federal Hospital that housed drug addicts. He once sponsored someone in A.A. who could stay away from alcohol but continued to use drugs so he believed and rightly so that the 12 steps could work but had to be geared towards drug addiction to do?so.?When he was transfered to the Lexington area he approached the hospital and?volunteered to start a meeting even though he didn't use drugs. It stayed within the hospital for the most part although many tried to get it going on the outside. There was an Addicts Anonymous in South Philadelphia up until the 1980s I was told. Not sure it that was same or just used the nameJimmy K who is considered one of the co-founders of N.A. most likely attended Addicts Anonymus meetings while in Lexington There was an article in the July 1949 Grapevine about Addicts Anonymous Bob from Long Island PS hope to see some of you in two weeks at the National Alcoholics Anonymous Archives Workshop in Woodland Hills, California IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6008. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Addicts Anonymous and All Addicts Anonymous From: mdingle76 . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/7/2009 7:42:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The first meeting of Addicts Anonymous was held on February 16, 1947 at the U.S. Public Health Service Hospital at Lexington.(I 99% sure that I got this date in Bill White's book "Slaying the Dragon".) Here is a report of the group's first year given by the secretary of Addicts Anonymous and published in the Alcoholics Anonymous Grapevine, the official magazine of the AA fellowship: A year ago, several members of the Alcoholics Anonymous Group in this vicinity approached the Medical Officer in Charge of the United States Public Health Service Hospital in Lexington, KY for the purpose of introducing an AA group into this institution. It was out of this beginning that the charter group of Addicts Anonymous was formed. The success of our organization is measured only by the success of its members in abstaining from the use of drugs, even though they may be in an environment where they are readily available. The underlying purpose of Addicts Anonymous is outlined in our preamble: Our precepts are patterned after those of Alcoholics Anonymous to which all credit is hereby given and all precedence is acknowledged.* We claim no originality but since we believe that the causes of addiction and alcoholism are basically the same, we wish to apply to our lives the truths which have benefited so many otherwise helpless alcoholics. We believe that by so doing, we may regain and maintain our health and sanity."(Grapevine, February 1948) As for the founding of All Addicts Anonymous (www.alladdictsanonymous.org) the first group started in Chappaqua NY, in the mid 1950s with members: Tom P., his son Tom P. Jr., a neurotic named Tony G., (I think Tony's wife), and a few others members. This group was originally called the "Nut Club". In the 60s Tom Sr., called the group the LifeSavers Group, and then in the early 80s he gave it the name that has stuck till this day -- All Addicts Anonymous. --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, jenny andrews wrote: > > Intrigued to read of an Addicts Anonymous > newsletter in 1952. Did this fellowship pre-date > NA etc? > > I have recently been in email correspondence > with All Addicts Anonymous, which was only > founded a short time ago. > > Did the 1950s Addicts Anonymous group have > links with Alcoholics Anonymous? How widespread > was its membership? What happened to it? > > Laurie A. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6009. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Harry Emerson Fosdick From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/9/2009 8:44:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Kevin There is a phenomenon in AA where a number of members after sobering up engage in reading religious material and/or return to church services and get the notion that clergy members and religions have principles that are "a lot like AA" when it is very much the other way around. In terms of primacy, AA's so-called "12 step approach" (which began as a "6 step approach") was likely spiritually in sync with Harry Emerson Fosdick and other influential Christian clergy members (such as Sam Shoemaker) rather than the other way around. AA history literature is fairly specific that Bill W's brother-in-law Dr Leonard V Strong, in December 1937, set up a meeting between Bill W and Willard Richardson (who was himself an ordained minister and manager of Rockefeller's philanthropies). The connection between Bill W and Rockefeller was primarily through Richardson. From the writings of Bill W (and other AA history books) it doesn't appear that Bill W ever actually personally met Rockefeller. Bill's connection seemed to always be through intermediaries (even during the famous Rockefeller dinner, Nelson Rockefeller substituted for his ailing father). In "AA comes of Age" Fosdick is credited with two significant items of help to AA. The first was his April 1939 review of the Big Book (contained in Appendix E of "AA Comes of Age" together with a delightful citation from his autobiography). The second major item of help was a talk he gave at the February 1940 Rockefeller dinner. Publicity from the dinner reputedly helped AA membership to double during 1940. Rockefeller and several dinner guests provided much needed outside contributions to AA up to 1945 when they were asked to stop contributing and AA declined to accept any more outside contributions. In 1944 Fosdick also served on the National Committee for Education on Alcoholism sponsored by the Yale Plan for Alcohol Studies (re the October 1944 Grapevine). The September 1945 Grapevine issue (in a column titled "The Pleasures of Reading") recommended the book "On Being a Real Person" by Fosdick. The April 1946 Grapevine issue recommended the book "Great Time To Be Alive" by Fosdick. The July 1948 Grapevine again recommend "On Being a Real Person" and "Great Time To Be Alive." The 1960 "AA Today" published by the Grapevine contained an article by Fosdick titled "Those Marvelous 12 Steps." The article was republished again in the November 1975. Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of kevinr1211 Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 2:25 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Harry Emerson Fosdick Fosdick wrote a series of daily reflection books around the time of the outbreak of WW I. They are really great -- he strongly believed in personal transformation and talked a lot of recovery language and emphasized the importance of fellowship. Fosdick seems to me to be very much spiritually in synch with 12 step approach. Does anyone know whether it was Harry who introduced Bill Wilson to Rockefeller? Does anyone know if Fosdick's books "The Meaning of Faith," "The Meaning of Prayer," and "The Meaning of Service" played a role in early AA? Thanks, Kevin IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6010. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Addicts Anonymous and All Addicts Anonymous From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/8/2009 4:22:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The first meeting of Addicts Anonymous was held on February 16, 1947 at the U.S. Public Health Service Hospital at Lexington.(I'm 99% sure that I got this date in Bill White's book "Slaying the Dragon".) Here is a report of the group's first year given by the secretary of Addicts Anonymous and published in the Alcoholics Anonymous Grapevine, the official magazine of the AA fellowship: A year ago, several members of the Alcoholics Anonymous Group in this vicinity approached the Medical Officer in Charge of the United States Public Health Service Hospital in Lexington, KY for the purpose of introducing an AA group into this institution. It was out of this beginning that the charter group of Addicts Anonymous was formed. The success of our organization is measured only by the success of its members in abstaining from the use of drugs, even though they may be in an environment where they are readily available. The underlying purpose of Addicts Anonymous is outlined in our preamble: Our precepts are patterned after those of Alcoholics Anonymous to which all credit is hereby given and all precedence is acknowledged.* We claim no originality but since we believe that the causes of addiction and alcoholism are basically the same, we wish to apply to our lives the truths which have benefited so many otherwise helpless alcoholics. We believe that by so doing, we may regain and maintain our health and sanity."(Grapevine, February 1948) As for the founding of All Addicts Anonymous (www.alladdictsanonymous.org) the first group started in Chappaqua NY, in the mid 1950s with members: Tom P., his son Tom P. Jr., a neurotic named Tony G., (I think Tony's wife), and a few others members. This group was originally called the "Nut Club". In the 60s Tom Sr., called the group the LifeSavers Group, and then in the early 80s he gave it the name that has stuck till this day -- All Addicts Anonymous. --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, jenny andrews wrote: > > Intrigued to read of an Addicts Anonymous > newsletter in 1952. Did this fellowship pre-date > NA etc? > > I have recently been in email correspondence > with All Addicts Anonymous, which was only > founded a short time ago. > > Did the 1950s Addicts Anonymous group have > links with Alcoholics Anonymous? How widespread > was its membership? What happened to it? > > Laurie A. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6011. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Addicts Anonymous From: Chris Budnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/8/2009 5:13:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In 1944, Houston Sewell of Montgomery, AL got sober in Alcoholics Anonymous. Houston knew a man in Alcoholics Anonymous named Harry who drank but also used other drugs. Though Harry stopped drinking, he continued to use other drugs and eventually was arrested and sent to the United States Public Health Services Hospital (USPHSH) in Lexington, KY.1 Lexington, KY In 1929, Congress authorized two Federal hospitals to treat drug addiction, one in Lexington, KY and the other in Fort Worth, Texas. Both facilities were established for people addicted to drugs that were convicted of offences against the Federal government. The hospitals served as both a prison and a treatment facility. What was interesting about the Lexington hospital is that a person could go there as a prisoner, probationer or a volunteer. The Lexington facility opened on May 25, 1935 and was known as Narco or the Narcotics Farm.2 Addicts Anonymous In 1947 Houston was transferred by his company to Frankfort, KY, roughly 25 miles from Lexington. Houston kept thinking about Harry. Convinced that "the twelve Suggested Steps would work as well for drugs as for alcohol if conscientiously applied," Houston approached the Medical Officer at Narco, Dr. Victor Vogel with the idea of starting a group for addicts. On February 16, 1947 the first group was held at Narco. This group was named Addicts Anonymous and continued to meet until 1966. Central to the success of Addicts Anonymous was the on-going support of members of Alcoholics Anonymous from Frankfort. Houston continued to support the meetings, which at its height boasted two meetings a week of the Men's Group, two meetings a week of the Women's Group and one combined group, until 1963. Other members of Alcoholics Anonymous who supported these meetings included Jim Music and Sterling S. Narcotics Anonymous and other Groups Many members of Addicts Anonymous joined Alcoholics Anonymous upon leaving Narco, however there was frequent discussion within both Addicts Anonymous and Alcoholics Anonymous about membership for the narcotic addict in Alcoholics Anonymous.3,4,5 One solution to this was the establishment of meetings outside of Lexington by former patients/inmates. The effort that gained the most attention was Narcotics Anonymous in New York City, which was established by Danny Carlsen after his seventh trip to Lexington. This Narcotics Anonymous died out by the early 1960's. Reasons for this included not following the Twelve Traditions, existing for purposes other that just recovery (i.e. serving as a social service agency), affiliation with other organizations (YMCA) and not having the organizational structure to sustain existence after the death of its founding member. Another effort made by a former patient/inmate to start groups for addicts outside of the hospital was Habit Forming Drugs Group in California. This group was started by Betty Thom who left Lexington in 1950. Although not fully understood, Betty probably served as a link between Addicts Anonymous and the Narcotics Anonymous that exists today, which began in California in 1953. In the by-laws established August 17, 1953 by some members of Alcoholics Anonymous who also had a narcotic addiction and were seeking to start open meetings for addicts included the following purpose statement which originated in Addicts Anonymous and was reproduced in their newsletter The Key. Our Purpose: This is an informal group of addicts banded together to help one another renew our strength in remaining free of drug and alcohol addiction. Our precepts are patterned after those of Alcoholics Anonymous, to which all credit is given and precedence acknowledged. We claim no originality, but since we believe that the causes of alcoholism and addiction are basically the same, we wish to apply to our lives the truths and principles which have benefited so many otherwise helpless individuals. We believe that by doing so we may regain our health and sanity. It shall be the purpose of this group to foster means of rehabilitation for the addict, and to carry a message of hope for the future for those who have become enslaved by the use of habit-forming drugs. Conclusion Houston S. saw someone who had a problem in addition to alcoholism and when he found himself in Frankfort, KY decided to apply what he knew worked in Alcoholics Anonymous to addicts. It would have been easy for him to continue his recovery within Alcoholics Anonymous; however he decided to carry the message one step further. And as a result of his dedicated service work, he helped addicts begin to see that recovery was possible through the 12-steps and through fellowship. This is really the untold and overlooked legacy of the USPHSH in Lexington. Much research into Narco has focused upon the clinical and experimental research that occurred there. However, in listening to the talk of a former patient of Narco, his saving grace came when he rejected the treatment that was being offered to him (intensive psychotherapy) and was told, "if you're not going to accept our treatment then the next best thing you can do is join AA."6 This is what this person did and he went on, like many others, to continue his recovery outside of Narco in the fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous and similar fellowships. Chris B. Raleigh, NC ____________________________________ 1. Ellison, J. (August 7, 1954). These Drug Addicts Cure One Another. Saturday Evening Post, p. 22. 2. Kentucky Historical Society. Historical note contained in the Inventory of the Lexington Narcotics Farm Collection, 1930s-1970s. (Retrieved from http://205.204.134.47:2005/cdm4/document.php?CISOROOT=/Aid&CISOPTR=1201&REC= 15 September 8, 2009.) 3. The Key (October 14, 1951 Vol. IV, No. 48) 4. The Key (May 17, 1953 Vol. VI, No. 20) 5. The Night Cap (February 1953 Vol. 3, No. 5). Narcotics and Goofballs. 6. Dr. John M. (1965). Talk given in Lake Worth, FL. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6012. . . . . . . . . . . . Alaska - First AA Groups From: Serene Rutter . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/16/2009 9:53:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Feb 1947 - Anchorage - Sourdough Group - 8 members Aug 1947 - Juneau - Totem Club - 5 members . (NOTE: The following notice was in the Anchorage Times, September 23, 1947: "PERSONALS WISH to contact members of Alcoholics Anonmous. Write Box 551, Anchorage.") . 1949 - Fairbanks - Arctic Group 1949 - Ketchikan - Tongas Group 1950 - Petersburg - Loner 1951 - Adak - Too Far West Group - 12 members 1951 - Haines - 3 members 1951 - Petersburg - 3 members (See 1950) 1952 - Whittier - Loner 1953 - Spenard - 7 members and a Loner (Spenard is now part of Anchorage.) 1953 - Valdez - Loner 1954 - Kodiak - Alano Club 1954 - Seward - 8 members 1955 - Eilson AFB (20 miles south of Fairbanks) - 7 members 1955 - Skagway - 12 members 1956 - Middleton Island - Loner . Serene Irene, Alaska serene613@yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6013. . . . . . . . . . . . Triangle and Circle From: Ernest Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/16/2009 11:55:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Passing on a question asked of me: "I heard that AA had previously had copyright for the triangle-in-the-circle symbol but gave it up as others began to use it to avoid conflict/legal affairs/money issues... is that right?" I am not sure whether or not all the money/copyright/etc. issues made it to the General Service Conference: might anyone have a complete set of those reports (preferably digitized)? Somewhat relatedly, might anyone have copies of records of all legal actions taken in the AA name? Thanks, ernie kurtz IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6014. . . . . . . . . . . . Photo of Wynn Laws From: Lee Carroll, CPA . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/13/2009 6:35:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Has anyone access or a link to a photo (or photos) of Wynn Laws? Thanks. Lee Carroll, CPA (805) 938-1981 - - - - From the moderator: I assume that you are referring to Wynn Corum Laws? See photo of Wynn Corum in http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-otherwomen.html For more about her, see http://westbalto.a-1associates.com/HISTORY_PAGE/Authors.htm Wynn Corum Laws, Big Book story "Freedom From Bondage" "Sometime after 1955 when her story appeared in the Big Book, she married her fifth husband, George Laws." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6015. . . . . . . . . . . . William James, online text of Varieties of Religious Experiences From: allan_gengler . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/11/2009 11:55:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This may have been shared, but I couldn't find it in a previous post with a search. If you're interested in reading William James' "The Varieties of Religious Experience" you can find the complete text online at: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:William_James_The_Varieties_of_Religi ous_\ Experience.pdf [21] - - - - From the moderator: And there are also a number of other places where one can find the full text online, some with type which is easier to read than others. http://etext.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/JamVari.html http://www.human-nature.com/reason/james/contents.html http://csp.org/experience/james-varieties/james-varieties.html IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6016. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Some Notes on the AA Original Manuscript Up for Auction From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/16/2009 11:04:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Doug B. You are correct! More to follow John B - - - - The orginal message #4377 from Bill Schaberg (schaberg at aol.com) said: > > Once again, I noticed that the name of Doctor Howard was just about > > everywhere in the manuscript. He sure had a LOT to say about edits > > to our book. In addition, two other doctors I have never before > > heard referenced as contributors of Big Book suggestions list (Dr. > > Witherspoon & Dr. Bevoise [sp?]) are also found here. - - - - --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Doug B." wrote in response: > > Bill, > > Thanks for your observations...my spine was tingling! > > I found the following Dr's that might fit your question: > > Dr James Wainwright Howard from Montclair, NJ graduated P&S in 1919 > Dr Charles Russell Witherspoon from Rochester, NY graduated Uof P in > 1898 > No mention of a Dr. Bevoise [any spelling]) in NY, NJ or CT in 1936 > > Doug B. - - - - The full text of Bill Schaberg's message no. 4377: > > I went down to Sotheby's today to take a long look at the Original > > Manuscript copy that they will be auctioning off on Thursday, June > > 21st. This is the OM copy where Hank, Ruth, Bill, and others > > recorded ALL of the suggestions that they received for edits before > > actually printing the first edition of the Big Book. It is an > > important historical document on many levels, but most importantly, > > I think, because it shows who made some of the suggestions and also > > allows you to see the suggestions that our founders did NOT take > > when editing the Big Book. > > > > NOTE: I was privileged with a private viewing of this copy of the > > Original Manuscript because I had assisted the cataloger in his > > write up of the history of the Original Manuscript printings – > > which, with the 13 photos, takes up 11½ pages of the catalog. While > > I had only 20 minutes to look at this piece when it was first > > auctioned off in June of 2004, this time Sotheby's allowed me over > > two hours to examine this important copy and it was a truly amazing > > two hours! What a piece of AA history! > > > > Just a couple of highlights. > > > > The original front cover of this copy is stamped in black > > ink: "LOANED COPY" – something I have heard about but never seen > > before. {Note: this copy is missing the original back cover along > > with the two pages of "Index" usually found in these copies.) > > > > The reverse side (verso) of the title page has a long handwritten > > note on it (see photo in lower left on page 224 of the Sotheby's > > catalog). This note continues onto the verso of another loose piece > > of paper that is also included here (but not pictured in the > > catalog). > > > > This is the manuscript copy of four paragraphs that were inserted > > into "Bill's Story." The paragraphs in question are the first four > > complete paragraphs found on page 12 of our basic text – starting > > with "Despite…" and ending with "…would!" These additions – > > certainly the largest edit to the Big Book immediately before it was > > published – include some extremely important AA precepts, not least > > of which is the italicized quote: "Why don't you choose your own > > conception of God?" > > > > This manuscript section is not in Bill's hand. I suspect (especially > > given the free use of abbreviations) that it was written there by > > Ruth Hock – either transcribed from Bill's notes or taken down from > > dictation. > > > > Once again, I noticed that the name of Doctor Howard was just about > > everywhere in the manuscript. He sure had a LOT to say about edits > > to our book. In addition, two other doctors I have never before > > heard referenced as contributors of Big Book suggestions list (Dr. > > Witherspoon & Dr. Bevoise [sp?]) are also found here. > > > > The Manuscript is littered with several comments that seem to be > > rather off-handed. One noted that something was "too groupy," i.e. > > Oxford Groupy. But, my favorite was opposite the first three > > paragraphs currently found on page 80 of the Big Book about making > > amends: "Dangerous for the NUTS – some could go higher than a kite." > > > > And there is some real history here. On the pages containing the > > dropped story "Ace Full – Seven – Eleven," Bill has written the > > author's name (something which has not been, to my knowledge, so far > > discovered) and includes a short comment on why the story has been > > dropped. (I will refrain from sharing that information here since it > > rightly belongs to the owner of this copy of the Original > > Manuscript.) > > > > Finally, it is interesting to note that none of the suggested > > changes to Dr. Bob's story were taken. Someone – in an effort to cut > > the text – had advised deleting three paragraphs and Dr. Howard > > wanted the last line of his story to read: "Your FAITH will never > > let you down!" Bob, obviously, thought the story should remain `as > > is.' > > > > If you are anywhere within driving distance of New York City, I > > would advise you to make a trip there this coming Friday, June 15th > > through Wednesday, June 20th to see this remarkable piece of our > > history and to "put your hands on the Book." It was a very moving > > experience for both me and my sponsor who joined me for this trip! > > > > Old Bill IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6017. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Triangle and Circle From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/16/2009 7:02:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The Truth of what happened to The Triangle In The Circle From Rick T., Area 20 Archivist, Illinois Metaphysics and copyrights aside, anyone can still use the circle and triangle logo! It's just not the "official" trade mark for Alcoholics Anonymous anymore...Since 1993, lawyers advised the General Service Board that the copyright on the logo was unenforceable. I remember the reports generating out of the Board and an Ad Hoc Committee meeting in January 1993 (two months before the General Service Conference). The Ad Hoc committee of Delegates and Trustees (chosen from a cross-section of AA Regions) came to the conclusion that recommended a simple phrase replacing it in all the AAWS printing and publications from the Conference forward "This is A.A. General Service Conference-approved literature." The Conference also agreed with this idea, and by the beginning of May 1993 a notice was sent out by the General Service Board that AAWS, Inc. would discontinue the use of the Circle and Triangle logo in its then-existing formats (1) blank, 2) with "AA" in the center of the triangle, 3) with "AA" and General Service Conference on the outside of the triangle, and 4) "AA" and Recovery, Unity, Service outside the triangle - those were accepted uses by AA through that 1993 announcement). The logo had been used officially from 1957 to 1993, and that's thirty-six years of uncontested usage - until the General Service Board thought to ask the medallion and coin makers to "cease and desist" using it. For a time in 1991-92 the coin manufacturers complied (to this member, with unsightly results...), but somewhere in 1992 decided to re-negotiate and contest the Board's position. Not that the case ever went to trial as a violation of copyright law; advice to the Board was that the copyright was either not renewed (in 1976, the Big Book copyright was unfortunately not renewed by an oversight error of omission in legal advice to the GSB, too!) or completely unenforceable, perhaps due to the compliance of the coin makers not using it (some who claimed or threatened to claim their own copyright in the coin formats, etc.). To remedy a pretty bad legal situation, the Conference heard the recommendation of simply using the 'conference-approved' phrase on literature. Where much discussion for a few years centered on AA going into the business of minting its own coins (definitely an outside issue), and suing the coin makers (against the 'spirit and letter' of the 12 Concepts for World Service--avoiding lawsuits whenever possible), the "catch-22" choices were evident, and the Conference recommendation was a workable solution. I have a friend and past Delegate who is also a lawyer, and he shared with me, that if anyone can put together a terrible process of lawsuits, it's us...no wonder we are advised against litigation, especially on outside issues. Did you know that upside down, the blank logo is the symbol for an air raid shelter? We had even found the same circle and triangle on manhole covers in Illinois (old ones from the Elgin City Water Dept.). You can imagine the view that any copyright court might take on this if we had followed through with long litigation - it would almost be the question asked "are you joking?" Today we can have a bit of fun discussing our use and its current "unofficial" status. The official logo was a beautiful part of our past, when the 1993 Conference also allowed that many AAs, AA events, etc. would still be using our circle and triangle logo, and there would be no interference in that. Of course, now we don't "own" the logo, but as far as I know, no one does... Perhaps you'll use it in the same spirit used in our past years, but don't worry about infringing on another's copyright. Use your own judgment, seek an informal consensus, but lightly take the above ideas into consideration. The circle and triangle is not "banned by A.A.," just discontinued since 1993 as a trademark. Love and Peace, Barefoot _Index of AA History Pages on Barefoot's Domain_ (http://www.barefootsworld.net/aahistory.html) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6018. . . . . . . . . . . . History of the AA International Conventions From: Mae H. . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/7/2009 6:14:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi. My name is Mae, an alcoholic, and I'm a new member. Could someone tell me what the previous locations of the International Conventions were? Thanks! Mae - - - - From the moderator: An account of each of the previous AA International Conventions is given at http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/internationalconvention.htm Those are very good accounts, and they make very interesting reading. The list of sites is as follows: 1950 Cleveland 1955 St. Louis 1960 Long Beach 1965 Toronto 1970 Miami 1975 Denver 1980 New Orleans 1985 Montreal 1990 Seattle 1995 San Diego 2000 Minneapolis 2005 Toronto 2010 San Antonio IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6019. . . . . . . . . . . . Towns Hospital Closing Date From: Billlwhite@AOL.COM . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/18/2009 11:59:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Has anyone run across any document verifying the closing date of the Charles B. Towns Hospital for the Treatment of Drug and Alcoholic Addictions? Bill White IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6020. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: History of the AA International Conventions From: Jay G. . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/18/2009 5:11:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII And it has already been announced... 2015 Atlanta 2020 Detroit - - - - > > The list of sites is as follows: > > 1950 Cleveland > 1955 St. Louis > 1960 Long Beach > 1965 Toronto > 1970 Miami > 1975 Denver > 1980 New Orleans > 1985 Montreal > 1990 Seattle > 1995 San Diego > 2000 Minneapolis > 2005 Toronto > 2010 San Antonio > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6021. . . . . . . . . . . . Cleveland History From: Bob McK. . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/18/2009 3:21:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I am the recently-appointed archivist for the Cleveland District Office a.k.a. Cleveland Central Office. Archives have never had a very high priority at that office until recently. So over the years attrition of what few archival items and records were stored has withered our collection to just a very few boxes. If any of you have items or records (pertinent to Cleveland AA) that you are willing to part with or copy and to send to us, we will take due care that they will be safeguarded and available to researchers in the decades to come. I will be at the National AA Archives workshop in California at the end of this month, or they can be sent to us at: Cleveland District Office Reserve Square - Lower Level 1701 E 12th St Cleveland, OH 44114 The archives community was very helpful to me a dozen years ago when I was seeking missing issues of the Cleveland Central Bulletin as part of a project to scan these and get them onto a searchable CD. I am hoping that they can again help me in this new endeavor. Bob McK. E-MAIL ADDRESS: (bobnotgod2 at att.net) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6022. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: William James, online text of Varieties of Religious Experiences From: aadavidi . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/17/2009 10:14:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The following link http://aastuff.com/ also has some of the Oxford Group books that are in the public domain. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6023. . . . . . . . . . . . First AA in North Carolina, 1939 From: mrpetesplace . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/19/2009 1:05:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Alcoholics Anonymous In North Carolina Sept. 20, 2009, Shelby will be commemorating 70 years of Alcoholics Anonymous in North Carolina. For more information on this event, go to http://wpintergroup.org. Additional information follows: AA first started to form in Shelby, North Carolina in the fall of 1939. Early correspondence can be found at http://aastuff.com/district13workshop.htm Bill W. talks about his visit in a Lecture in 1944 at http://aastuff.com/lecture29.htm Scroll down a little more than half of page to the paragraph that starts with: "I would like to tell, in conclusion..." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6024. . . . . . . . . . . . A photo of Bill W., Hank P., and Ruth Hock together From: erb2b . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/18/2009 5:23:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Greetings!! Some of us on a new commmittee I am involved with are doing a picture project for a club. Does anyone have a picture of Bill W., Hank P., and Ruth Hock, the three of them together, they can email to us? We need that to complete the project. It's for the newcomers there as part of the learning process. If you have a copy of such a photo, please email one to me at: (erb2b at yahoo.com) THX! Corey F. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6025. . . . . . . . . . . . Defects vs shortcomings From: Lee Carroll . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/18/2009 8:00:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I thought I had seen, years ago, somewhere in print, an alleged comment by Bill W. that when asked what was the difference between character defects and shortcomings between step 6 and 7, that he replied "I didn't mean any difference, I just didn't want to repeat myself using the same word twice, I didn't think that was good writing," or something to that effect. I could have sworn I read it somewhere, but now I can't find it in "As Bill Sees It" or "AA Comes of Age" or "Pass It On." Can anybody give me any documentation for that statement that Bill W. is supposed to have made? A book and a page number? Lee Carroll, CPA (805) 938-1981 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6026. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr. Howard has been found! James Wainwright Howard From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/19/2009 5:00:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII John Barton has discovered information indicating that Dr James Wainwright Howard from Montclair, New Jersey was probably the "Dr. Howard" who made such useful comments on the multilith draft of the Big Book. Following up on Message 6016 which was sent by John Barton (jax760 at yahoo.com) three days ago: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/6016 John Barton sent this corroborative information on Wednesday, September 16, 2009 11:18 PM to "Glenn Chesnut" (glennccc at sbcglobal.net) "Ernest Kurtz" (kurtzern at umich.edu) "Arthur Sheehan" (artsheehan at msn.com) "J. Lobdell" (jlobdell54 at hotmail.com) "BBSGSONJ" (BBSGSONJ at aol.com) Today I read about a Dr. C. E. Howard in Bill White's "Slaying the Dragon," and wondered if this might be the mysterious "Dr. Howard" who made such useful comments on the multilith draft of the Big Book. As I pursued that lead to a 1940 article on alcoholic psychoses I was at first sure I had in fact found "The Dr. Howard," but then I stumbled on a short biography of James Wainwright Howard, which is definitely our elusive Dr. Howard as he is all over Essex County New Jersey and Montclair. This short account of his life is given in the "Biographical Directory Of Fellows and Members of the American Psychiatric Association." A copy of it may be seen at: http://hindsfoot.org/docu1.html As I am nearby I may go and check the records at Mountainside Hospital. Doug B. originally posted the name of Dr James Wainwright Howard from Montclair, New Jersey as a suggestion several years back, but it seems his lead went unpursued. I think we should nevertheless give Doug B. the credit for the find! The rest of us were at fault for not following up on his suggestion. God Bless John Barton - - - - From: "Arthur S" RE: Dr. Howard has been found! Thursday, September 17, 2009 11:53 AM Any chance to just send an inquiry to GSO Archives to see if they can confirm? I believe Merton was originally of the viewpoint that "Dr Howard" was an alias. Cheers Arthur - - - - From: "John Barton" RE: Dr. Howard has been found! Thursday, September 17, 2009 12:33 PM I did copy Michelle Mirza last night and will advise all of you of her response. I wouldn't be surprised if they had no more information on the good doctor than we had, or Merton would have found it. Hope more will be revealed! John - - - - From: Mirza, Michelle To: Sent: Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:57 am Subject: RE: Dr. Howard has been found! John - Hello and warm greetings from GSO Archives! Thank you for thoughtfully passing along this information to us! At times we are asked to identify particular places, people or events described in our literature and particularly by Bill. This information is certainly useful. Always grateful for your service to A.A.! Michelle - - - - From: "J. Lobdell" RE: Dr. Howard has been found! Friday, September 18, 2009 10:24 AM I did some research on James Wainwright Howard a while back but was put off by his 1930 Census listing as a physician in general practice. I can tell you he was born in April 1891, in Pittsburgh, graduated from Yale in 1914 (which the bio Jack Barton sent in told us), got his M.D. in NYC in 1919 (ditto). His father Abner Updegraff Howard (a Yale graduate) was an executive with Pittsburgh Glass, but JW was left an orphan early on, living first with his Aunt Mary and Uncle Frank Hunter in Norristown, Pennsylvania in 1900 and then with his older brother Morton (Yale 1905) in Yonkers in 1910. What I have been particularly looking for is any connection with Bill Wilson before 1939: here's what I've found. First, no connection through his college roommates, Gerry [Gerard or Gerald] Jackson or Ralph and George Semler; second, JW's sister Esther married Edward Anthony, later (1942-52) publisher of the Woman's Home Companion, and before that at least from 1933 to 1942 with Crowell, the publishers of the WHC. I believe Ed Anthony (like Bill W b. 1895 d. 1971, I think) was at least an occasional habitue of Stewart's Cafeteria. Moreover, he had worked in his younger days on the same paper on which worked Joseph Hooker W (who is supposed to have said "Not Anonymous Alcoholics -- Alcoholics Anonymous!"). So there is a possible connection there. It's true JW was an Adlerian (studied under Adler in 1929) so there might have been a connection through Emily Stro[e]bel, Bill's mother, but I have found no evidence on that. And I have found no evidence on JW's career after 1944, tho' I have written the Yale Alumni Archives to see what they have. -- Jared - - - - From: "BBSGSONJ@aol.com" Re: Dr. Howard has been found! Friday, September 18, 2009 10:56 AM Hi Everyone, The source for the Bio I posted on Dr. Howard was from The Biographical Directory Of Fellows and Members of the American Psychiatric Association. The full PDF of this document was 96 MB. The document was found at http://www.archive.org/details/biographicaldire007514mbp There is no doubt in my mind that this is our man. The Bio has him as Ch. (Chief) of several teams or committees, the N.P. I believe stands for Neurology, Psychiatry or Neuro-psychiatry. God Bless, PS - - - - From: "BBSGSONJ@aol.com" Re: Dr. Howard has been found! Friday, September 18, 2009 11:05 AM The "connection" rather than through Bill would more likely have been through one of two Montclair Residents; Hank Parkhurst or Harry Brick both sober at the time the manuscript was complete in December of 1938. My money would go on Hank. Having been treated so many times himself for his illness, and being a resident within Mountainside Hospital's immediate vicinity it is very possible that the good doctor may have treated Hank profes- sionally as an attending N.P at Mountainside 34-41. God Bless - - - - From: "BBSGSONJ@aol.com" Re: Dr. Howard has been found! Friday, September 18, 2009 11:13 AM And there is of course Harry Brick's hospitali- zation in 1938; i.e. the story of "Fred" in the big book. This could have brought the boys in contact with the good doctor. God Bless John Barton - - - - From: "J. Lobdell" RE: Dr. Howard has been found! Friday, September 18, 2009 12:36 PM It very well could be exactly as you say, but I would hazard a guess that Dr. Howard was consulted for editing as much as for psychiatric knowledge, and given Bill's general predilection for consulting people he picked rather than those picked by others (and what was his feeling for Hank and his friends ca Jan 1939?), and his liking for the magazine literati (so to speak), I'd still be inclined to say Dr. Howard was Bill's idea rather than Hank's, and might well have been suggested by his brother-in-law. But you may find an indication that Hank was indeed treated by Dr. Howard, which would be important. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6027. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Who suffered from grave emotional and mental disorders? From: glennccc . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/20/2009 1:06:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: James Williams (jamesewilliams at suddenlink.net) Just look at Bill Wilson and the problems he had. - - - - From: Glenn Chesnut (glennccc at sbcglobal.net) Can you give us any sources from the 1938 to 1939 period indicating that Bill Wilson was regarded by the other AA people as someone who had psychological problems so severe that it put him in a special category with just a few other early AA people? That there was much more wrong with him, in other words, than just being an alcoholic? Some kind of psychiatric problem which competent psychiatrists had put a name on, where he had been officially diagnosed as being schizophrenic, manic depressive, a psychopath, or something else of that sort? - - - - From: James Williams (jamesewilliams at suddenlink.net) I was referring to the 10 yr depression that Bill himself refers to. This is referred to not only by Bill but also in other AA references. I was not referring to the other things that Bill got into (the LSD, etc.) although those are also well known and cited often. My point when I replied was that even Bill had problems in this area, as most of us have. - - - - Original message from "katiebartlett79" asked: > > Hi, > > Katie from Barking Big Book study, The Way Out. > > Chapter 5, How It Works, first paragraph: > "There are those, too, who suffer from grave > emotional and mental disorders, but many of > them do recover if they have the capacity to > be honest." > > In the period before the Big Book was written, > do we know the names of any specific people > who got sober in AA in spite of the fact that > they suffered from "grave emotional and mental > disorders"? > > On what specific experience(s) were they > basing this statement? > > Thanks > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6028. . . . . . . . . . . . Background: Dr. Howard question (Part 1 of 3) From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/20/2009 2:21:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This is a collection of previous AAHistoryLovers messages which will help in providing some of the background to the work that has been done on trying to identify Dr. Howard. To summarize the basic issues and possibilities discussed: (1) Doug B. (in 2007) originally suggested that this might be Dr James Wainwright Howard from Montclair, New Jersey. John Barton has now uncovered additional evidence supporting this. (2) Merton M. in 2006 said that "my review of the Montclair City Directory from 1937-1940 revealed no Dr. Howard," which made him believe that "its quite likely that [the name Dr. Howard] was a pseudonym." (3) Jared Lobdell in 2006 responded to Merton by suggesting that "Dr. Howard" might then actually have been Marcus A. Curry, Chief at the NJ State Asylum for the Insane at Greystone Park during the years 1936-40 (from the Greystone Park Annual Reports 1936-40 in the NJ State Archives). (4) And Jared Lobdell more recently (in Message 5834) suggested that there's the possibility (given the "Dr. Howard") that it might be Dr. Howard W. S. Potter (1892-1984), of New York (Letchworth Village), a native-born Jerseyan. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ THE STANDARD IDENTIFICATION GIVEN in lists which identify the people mentioned in the Big Book say that the "prominent psychiatrist" referred to on page 163 of the Big Book was Dr. Howard of Montclair, the Chief Psychiatrist for the State of New Jersey. BIG BOOK page 163: "We know of an A.A. member who was living in a large community. He had lived there but a few weeks when he found that the place probably contained more alcoholics per square mile than any city in the country. This was only a few days ago at this writing. (1939) The authorities were much concerned. He got in touch with a prominent psychiatrist who had under- taken certain responsibilities for the mental health of the community. The doctor proved to be able and exceedingly anxious to adopt any workable method of handling the situation. So he inquired, what did our friend have on the ball?" "Our friend proceeded to tell him. And with such good effect that the doctor agreed to a test among his patients and certain other alcoholics from a clinic which he attends. Arrangements were also made with the chief psychiatrist of a large public hospital to select still others from the stream of misery which flows through that institution." The standard lists of people mentioned in the Big Book say: (Big Book p. 163) "an A.A. member who was living in a large community" referred to Hank Parkhurst in Montclair, New Jersey. "A prominent psychiatrist" there was Dr. Howard of Montclair, who was the Chief Psychiatrist for the State of New Jersey. (Big Book p. 163) "Arrangements were also made with the chief psychiatrist of a large public hospital" referred to Dr. Russell E. Blaisdell and the Rockland State Hospital near Orangeburg, New York. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ THERE WAS ALSO A "DR. HOWARD" who wrote a critique of the early draft of the Big Book which was circulated in multilith form. Same man? Or a different person? Message 1045 from "Pittman, Bill" May 28, 2003 Any information on Dr Howard, a well-known psychiatrist from Montclair, New Jersey, who helped with the multilith? Any way to find phonebook for 1938 in Montclair? Bill Pittman ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Message 1705 from NMOlson@aol.com Mar 13, 2004 MEMOIRS OF JIMMY: THE EVOLUTION OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS By Jim Burwell Hank and Bill finally decided on the name "Alcoholics Anonymous" in the latter part of November 1938. About this time we almost had a disaster in our still wobbly group but it later turned out to be a Godsend. Bill and Hank had distributed quite a few copies of the original manuscript to doctors, psychiatrists and ministers to get a last minute reaction. One of these went to Dr. Howard, Chief psychiatrist for the State of New Jersey. He became greatly interested and enthusiastic, but was highly critical of several things in the book, for after reading it he told us there was entirely too much "Oxfordism" and that it was too demanding. This is where the disaster nearly overtook us, for it nearly threw Bill into a terrific mental uproar to have his "baby" pulled apart by an outside "screwball" psychiatrist, who in our opinion knew nothing about alcoholism. After days of wrangling between Bill, Hank, Fitz and myself, Bill was finally convinced that all positive and "must" statements should be eliminated and in their place to use the word "suggest" and the expression "we found we had to." Another thing changed in this last rewriting was qualifying the word "God" with the phrase "as we understand Him." (This was one of my few contributions to the book.) In the final finishing the fellowship angle was enlarged and emphasized. After many arguments and uproars, the manuscript was finally finished, complete, in December 1938. We now had one real problem - no money. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Message 2009 from "Arthur" posted on Sep 3, 2004 1939: Feb/Mar (?), The distributed multilith copies were returned, but reader's comments produced few alterations in the final text. A major change did occur at the suggestion of a Montclair, NJ psychiatrist, Dr Howard, who recommended toning down the use of "musts" and changing them to "we ought" or "we should." Dr Silkworth and Dr Tiebout offered similar advice. (AACOA 167-168 NG 67-77) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Message 2396 from "Art Sheehan" posted on May 10, 2005 During Feb/Mar 1939, multilith copies of the Big Book manuscript, distributed for review, were returned. Reader's comments produced few alterations in the final text. A major change did occur at the suggestion of a "Dr Howard, a well-known psychiatrist of Montclair, NJ" who recommended toning down the use of "musts" and changing them to "we ought" or "we should." Dr Silkworth (a neurologist) and Dr Tiebout (a psychiatrist) offered similar advice. (re AA Comes of Age [AACOA] pgs 167-168). ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Message 2628 from Sep 3, 2005 [Hi Old Bob, Here's another piece of information that would probably be of interest regarding the multilith. Again the source is Black Sheep and its source was an exact transcription from GSO Archives mf of original I made in the early 90's. On February 21, 1939 Rockerfeller Foundation exec Frank Amos wrote to co-exec Mr. Richardson,] [additions, corrections or deletions always in brackets] [...] "The photo-litho copies of the book has been carefully edited, but the individual stories, occupying the last half of the book, still must undergo considerable editing. Also there are a number of stories to be added, most of them, I believe, from Akron. If you will let me or Bill know how many of those photo-litho copies you would like to have, he will see to it that you get them at once. They are quite legible, but of course are put up in cheap form and cannot be compared in attractiveness and readibility to the final printed volume." [ . . .] STOP [I have no notation of the original reported letter from Dr. Howard, a psychiatrist from Montclair N.J. where Hank (and around that time Bill as well having to vacate Brooklyn Heights, and probably also Jim as per his story) lived at this time. This is generally refered to as the primary source of objection to the "directions" and "you musts" that are prevelent throughout the "multi-liths". The date of this correspondence would be helpful to track down and it may be in Ernie Kurtz's, Not God, footnotes.] ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ [Merton M. believed that "Dr. Howard" was a pseudonym] Message 3082 from Jan 22, 2006 bout a month ago Chuck P. (no known relationship to Hank P. at this time) made available to me the 4 pages from the Sotheby's catalog where the heavily annotated manuscript that was sold for well over $1Million appeared. Having personally owned numerous handwritten documents that were given to me by Hank's living relatives and viewed numerous other of Hank's original documents at GSO, Stepping Stones and Clarence's letters from Hank now housed at Brown University, I've concluded (to my own satisfaction anyway) that except for the much later dated page signed by Bill the vast majority of the commentary was pened by Hank P. Hank had 3 different styles of handwriting, one being block letters (which I call H1) the second being a very neatly written style (which I call H2 and somewhat rare) and third a rapid scribble (which I call H3 and the most typical. On the bottom of several of the pages the initials HGP appears (Hank's initials the G. standing for Giffen). Also note that the well known Dr. Howard (See PIO) appears several times and it seems very likely that this is the manuscript lent to Dr. Howard for review. Dr. Howard was the individual who told them that the book was all wrong and they must remove the "You musts" from the book and replace it with more suggestive language. Note that my review of the Montclair City Directory from 1937-1940 revealed no Dr. Howard and its quite likely that this was a pseudonym. (also his first name is unknown and he seems to have vanished from all historical accounts of the era after the review). Jim Burwell says in his history something to the effect that he was the head psychiatrist of New Jersey, though I could not find such a position to have existed then. Any doctor at the time of the writing of the book (other than Dr. Silkworth) would be reluctant to attaching his name to this idea or book. There are references to some of the material being "too groupy" and to the Oxford Group explicitly demonstrating that there was a perception that the book should avoid such appearence.(at least by Hank). I'm not a handwriting expert but absent a great forgery I'm quite sure of my analysis of the majority of the handwriting being that of Hank. I've also only seen evidence regarding these 4 pages so it goes without saying that I have no knowlege of what appears on any of the other pages. As always anyone should feel free to challenge any of this (preferably having viewed the document or fascimiles in the above-referenced auction catelog). That such an extraorinary document should surface at this late date demonstrates that their is still original material out there that hasn't been noted by anyone. All the Best, -merton ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ [Jared L. suggested that "Dr. Howard" was really Marcus A. Curry] Message 3100 from Jan 26, 2006 On the name of the "Chief Psychiatrist of NJ" I suggest Marcus A. Curry, Chief at the NJ State Asylum for the Insane at Greystone Park during the years 1936-40 (from the Greystone Park Annual Reports 1936-40 in the NJ State Archives). -- Jared Lobdell ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Message 3111 from "ArtSheehan" Jan 27, 2006 Oh how I would love to find out, for certain, who "Dr Howard" was. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6029. . . . . . . . . . . . Background: Dr. Howard question (Part 2 of 3) From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/20/2009 2:23:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Message 3117 from Jan 29, 2006 Re: The Dr. Howard/Hank P. manuscript Hi Rick, As Stated in my original post this appears to be the draft edited by Hank P. and Dr. Howard. It does not appear to be anything like a draft that a publisher could work from and if you look closely at the 4 pages from the Sotheby's Catelog I think you will agree. Its quite obviously an intermediate sort of draft as it doesn't remotely agree with the finished product. Also as stated previously there are two handwritten references to Dr. Howard and most of the handwriting is Hank P.'s in my opinion. I disagee with the Sotheby assertion that this is the final copy that went to Cornwall Press. This document is far more significant historically. I am quite cautious with such an assertion as their experts are quite meticulous. Please look to what's available facimilewise rather than what secondhand reporters tell us. All the best!! -merton ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Message 3119 from Jan 29, 2006 Re: Printer's Copy and Dr. Howard The name Curry is extremely interesting as it was one of names mentioned by Bill and Hank during their 2 week stock redemption debate, as a creditor of Henry G. Parkhurst, Inc. (unincorporated in reality)(the name Honor Dealers was not used in this discussion, Hank' contention was that he was principally liable as the company bore his namesake so he owned the furniture. Bill pointed out that as treasurer, an officer, he was equally liable). One of the other creditors was Sinclair Oil. As I stated originally after reviewing the 4 pages from the Sotheby's catelog its my very stong opinion that this wasn't a "publisher's draft" but rather an intermittent draft and is mostly in Hank P's and very likely the mysterious Dr. Howard's hand. The one page in Bill's hand was written many years after publication. Hopefully more people can view the photo fascimiles from the catelog to understand my point. If there's anyone living in the Essex or Morris County area's please check the various city directories for Dr. Marcus A. Curry. Thank you jlobdell for this possible lead into identifying the elusive Dr. Howard. Greystone Park yielded several very early members including Morgan R., from Glen Ridge, who spoke on the radio about AA. Source - documents in GSO Archives 1939-40 for unpublished yet Black Sheep manuscript) All the Best!!! -merton ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ [General background on the writing of the Big Book] Message 3284 from Mar 22, 2006 "Pass It On" (page 200) ... states "Bill wrote at least ten of the opening chapters of the book; there is some reason to believe that "To Employers" may have been written by Hank." ... Mitchell K ... relayed information he received through testimonial from Ruth Hock (a first person observer). Merton M, a member of this forum, is researching a comprehensive history of AA in New Jersey (which was started by Hank P). Merton also attributes authorship of "To Employers" to Hank P based on his research (and he is a bit of a stickler for accurate details) .... The idea that Bill only wrote the first paragraph of "To Employers" in no way detracts from or diminishes his role in the overall production of the Big Book. Bill's methodology for writing the Big Book chapters was for him to develop an outline of the chapters on a yellow legal pad and then later dictate narrative details to Ruth Hock to type up drafts. The drafts were then presented to NY, Akron and Cleveland members for editing and changes .... The Big Book is unique in that it is the only literary work in AA where everyone who was a member at the time (1938-1939) had an opportunity to directly contribute to shaping both the wording and style of the book. This also included non-alcoholic friends of AA: 1. Dr Silkworth wrote a letter of support for AA for use in fundraising for the book. The letter, and additional narrative from Dr Silkworth, were incorporated into the chapter "The Doctor's Opinion." 2. 28 members submitted their stories for the book. These stories, then and today, make up a substantial and very important portion of the Big Book (notwithstanding the tiresome "first 164 pages" mantra that circulates within AA). 3. Jim B (whose story is "Vicious Cycle") suggested the phrases "God as we understand Him" and "Power greater than ourselves" be added to the Steps and basic text. 4. A psychiatrist "Dr Howard" (an alias) caused the whole tone of the book to be changed from "must" to "should" or "ought." 5. Tom Uzzell, a friend of Hank P, an editor at Collier's and a member of the NYU faculty, edited the manuscript which was variously estimated as 600-800 pages (including personal stories). Uzzell reduced it to approximately 400 pages. Most cuts came from the personal stories, which had also been edited by Jim S of Akron and Bill W and Hank P in NY. The Big Book is a product of informed group conscience and, as a consequence, it turned out to be a very remarkable product. By his own admission, Bill wrote that his role eventually changed from one of primary author to umpire. Cheers Arthur ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Message 4377 from "schaberg43" Jun 12, 2007 I went down to Sotheby's today to take a long look at the Original Manuscript copy that they will be auctioning off on Thursday, June 21st. This is the OM copy where Hank, Ruth, Bill, and others recorded ALL of the suggestions that they received for edits before actually printing the first edition of the Big Book. It is an important historical document on many levels, but most importantly, I think, because it shows who made some of the suggestions and also allows you to see the suggestions that our founders did NOT take when editing the Big Book. NOTE: I was privileged with a private viewing of this copy of the Original Manuscript because I had assisted the cataloger in his write up of the history of the Original Manuscript printings -- which, with the 13 photos, takes up 11-1/2 pages of the catalog. While I had only 20 minutes to look at this piece when it was first auctioned off in June of 2004, this time Sotheby's allowed me over two hours to examine this important copy and it was a truly amazing two hours! What a piece of AA history! Just a couple of highlights. The original front cover of this copy is stamped in black ink: "LOANED COPY" -- something I have heard about but never seen before. {Note: this copy is missing the original back cover along with the two pages of "Index" usually found in these copies.) The reverse side (verso) of the title page has a long handwritten note on it (see photo in lower left on page 224 of the Sotheby's catalog). This note continues onto the verso of another loose piece of paper that is also included here (but not pictured in the catalog). This is the manuscript copy of four paragraphs that were inserted into "Bill's Story." The paragraphs in question are the first four complete paragraphs found on page 12 of our basic text -- starting with "Despite ..." and ending with "... would!" These additions -- certainly the largest edit to the Big Book immediately before it was published -- include some extremely important AA precepts, not least of which is the italicized quote: "Why don't you choose your own conception of God?" This manuscript section is not in Bill's hand. I suspect (especially given the free use of abbreviations) that it was written there by Ruth Hock -- either transcribed from Bill's notes or taken down from dictation. Once again, I noticed that the name of Doctor Howard was just about everywhere in the manuscript. He sure had a LOT to say about edits to our book. In addition, two other doctors I have never before heard referenced as contributors of Big Book suggestions list (Dr. Witherspoon & Dr. Bevoise [sp?]) are also found here. The Manuscript is littered with several comments that seem to be rather off-handed. One noted that something was "too groupy," i.e. Oxford Groupy. But, my favorite was opposite the first three paragraphs currently found on page 80 of the Big Book about making amends: "Dangerous for the NUTS -- some could go higher than a kite." And there is some real history here. On the pages containing the dropped story "Ace Full -- Seven -- Eleven," Bill has written the author's name (something which has not been, to my knowledge, so far discovered) and includes a short comment on why the story has been dropped. (I will refrain from sharing that information here since it rightly belongs to the owner of this copy of the Original Manuscript.) Finally, it is interesting to note that none of the suggested changes to Dr. Bob's story were taken. Someone -- in an effort to cut the text -- had advised deleting three paragraphs and Dr. Howard wanted the last line of his story to read: "Your FAITH will never let you down!" Bob, obviously, thought the story should remain 'as is.' If you are anywhere within driving distance of New York City, I would advise you to make a trip there this coming Friday, June 15th through Wednesday, June 20th to see this remarkable piece of our history and to "put your hands on the Book." It was a very moving experience for both me and my sponsor who joined me for this trip! Old Bill ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6030. . . . . . . . . . . . Background: Dr. Howard question (Part 3 of 3) From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/20/2009 2:25:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII [Doug. B suggested that "Dr. Howard" was Dr. James Wainwright Howard from Montclair, New Jersey] Message 4381 from "Doug B." Jun 14, 2007 Re: Some Notes on the AA Original Manuscript Up for Auction Bill, Thanks for your observations...my spine was tingling! I found the following Dr's that might fit your question: Dr James Wainwright Howard from Montclair, NJ graduated P&S in 1919 Dr Charles Russell Witherspoon from Rochester, NY graduated Uof P in 1898 No mention of a Dr. Bevoise [any spelling]) in NY, NJ or CT in 1936 Doug B. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Message 4409 from "Old Bill" posted by "Fiona Dodd" Jun 26, 2007 Jim Burwell's Copy of Original Manuscript Given the current excitement surrounding the sale of the "Master Copy" of the Original Manuscript, there was a request here for more information on Jim Burwell's copy of the Original Manuscript and I will try to supply as much detail about it below as possible. My Lady Sara and I are the current owners of the Burwell copy of the "Original Manuscript" -- one of the multilith copies of the proposed text of the Big Book that were circulated in late 1938 and early 1939 for review and comments .... The book has been rebound twice. Once at some point in the past, Jim Burwell had the book rebound with a uniform black cloth binding that had the title "Alcoholics / Anonymous // Book No. 2. / of the / First Hundred Mimeographed / Copies" on the front cover in gilt lettering. By 1993, this second binding was in need of replacement so an identical looking black cloth binding (with exactly the same front cover title information) was created by Ron M. The first black cloth binding has been separately preserved along with the original endpapers from that binding .... The unique features of this copy include .... VERSO OF INDEX PAGE: This originally blank page is filled with a wealth of historically important information (written in blue ink by Jim) including .... ... a final major header: "Non Alcoholics Who Were So Helpful" listing seven full names â“ Dorothy Snyder appearing in a different hand at the end. NOTE: Dr. Howard is listed here as being from "(N.J. State Hosp)" ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Message 4807 from "Arthur S" Jan 20, 2008 [AA Comes of Age] On page 165: "Had we not better make a prepublication copy of the text and some of the stories and try the book out on our own membership and on every kind and class of person that has anything to do with drunks?" On page 167: "One of them came from Dr. Howard, a well-known psychiatrist of Montclair, New Jersey. He pointed out that the text of our book was too full of the words "you" and "must." [... also ...] "To make this shift throughout the text of the book would be a big job." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Message 5232 from John B Sep 22, 2008 Re: Some Notes on the AA Original Manuscript Up for Auction Dr. Bevoise is Herb Debevoise (Herb D) from South Orange, New Jersey. John B - - - - Bill Schaberg had written: I noticed that the name of Doctor Howard was just about everywhere in the manuscript. He sure had a LOT to say about edits to our book. In addition, two other doctors I have never before heard referenced as contributors of Big Book suggestions list (Dr. Witherspoon & Dr. Bevoise [sp?]) are also found here. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Messsage 5321 from "John Barton" posted by Glenn Chesnut Jun 26, 2009 Re: Big Book pg 163 who is the AA member, the 2 psychiatrists, and the hospitals? Dr. "Howard" is thought to be an alias. He may have been Dr. Marcus Curry, head of Greystone in 1939. --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Lee Carroll" wrote: > > The AA member was Hank Parkhurst - he was living in Montclair NJ at the time. > > Prominent psychiatrist was Dr Howard of Montclair, NJ > > Second psychiatrist was Dr Russell E. Blaisdell, Rockland State Hospital > near Orangeburg NY. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ [Jared L. suggested that "Dr. Howard" might have been Dr. Howard W. S. Potter] Message 5834 from Jared L. Re: Big Book pg 163 who is the AA member, the 2 psychiatrists, and the hospitals? Marcus Curry would fit for "Chief Psychiatrist of the State of NJ" -- more or less -- but there's the possibility (given the "Dr. Howard") that it might be Dr. Howard W. S. Potter (1892-1984), of New York (Letchworth Village), a native-born Jerseyan (Elizabeth, I think) -- tho' I don't know where he was living in 1939. Perhaps someone could check the MS of Howard Potter's reminiscences in the Columbia Medical Library. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6031. . . . . . . . . . . . new Carl Jung book From: diazeztone . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/20/2009 1:14:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII new Carl Jung book September 20, 2009 The Holy Grail of the Unconscious By SARA CORBET really not directly AA related but might be of interest to those in this group http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/20/magazine/20jung-t.html LD Pierce aabibliography.com IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6032. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Who suffered from grave emotional and mental disorders? From: Jon Markle . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/20/2009 1:53:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Psychiatric "labels" back then were not bandied about with such abandonment as they are today. In fact, there was little known about such "diagnostic terms" back then. Certainly, any labels used in AA literature meant something very different than they do, clinically, today. So, even if there were such applications to Bill W, they would not mean the same thing as they do today. Notwithstanding there were problems of a mental and emotional nature, we need to be very careful when discussing such labels back that far . . . not just in AA, but in all circumstances. We do a great disservice to people when we try to attach to them such labels. History should deal only with facts, not suppositions or assumptions. Jon Markle/MA Retired Therapist & SA Counseling Dual Diagnosis/COD speciality HS Practitioner, Advisor & Case Consultations Raleigh, NC [my opinions are my own, obviously and this post may not be copied, duplicated, referred to or otherwise used in any publication, paper or electronic, or digital, for any reason by any person without my written permission.] On Sep 20, 2009, at 1:06 PM, glennccc wrote: > That there was much more wrong with him, in > other words, than just being an alcoholic? > Some kind of psychiatric problem which competent > psychiatrists had put a name on, where he had > been officially diagnosed as being schizophrenic, > manic depressive, a psychopath, or something > else of that sort? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6033. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Harry Emerson Fosdick From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/12/2009 4:20:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Episcopalian minister and Oxford Grouper Sam Shoemaker compared AA to Christianity in "Those 12 Steps as I understand them" (Grapevine, January 1964). "His (Shoemaker's) teaching provided most of the principles embodied in our 12 Steps..." (Grapevine, March 1973). Then there was Fulton Oursler, journalist and novelist ("The Greatest Story Ever Told"). Of the Bible he wrote, "In this one book (actually 66 books) are the two most interesting personalities in the whole world - God and yourself. The Bible is the story of God and man (sic), a love story in which you and I must write our own ending, our unfinished autobiography of the creature and the Creator." And, "Many of us crucify ourselves between two thieves - regret for the past and fear of the future." Oursler was in London to interview the archbishop of Canterbury when his wife, Grace O, convened the first known meeting of AA in Britain in her room at the swanky Dorchester Hotel, in Park Lane on March 31, 1947. But let's not forget that from early days, despite its genesis in first century Christianity, AA was reaching out to those of other faiths or no faith: "By personal religious affiliation we include Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Hindus and a sprinkling of Moslems and Buddhists..." (Foreword to Big Book second edition, 1955). Laurie A. - - - - From: Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com) People keep trying to tie AA to religion, but AA says there is no dogma. Bill W warned that others are sensitive to aggression in the name of spirituality. As Bill W. said, "A new comer may ask, certainly there is something I must believe or do." Bill added, " We cheerfully reply that in AA there are no musts." Of course, our steps are only suggestions. There is one imperative, Bill W said, "Particularly was it imperative to work with others." But like everything else he wrote in the big book, that was only a suggested imperative. - - - - Original message from ArtSheehan@msn.com (ArtSheehan at msn.com) There is a phenomenon in AA where a number of members after sobering up engage in reading religious material and/or return to church services and get the notion that clergy members and religions have principles that are "a lot like AA" when it is very much the other way around. In terms of primacy, AA's so-called "12 step approach" (which began as a "6 step approach") [see http://hindsfoot.org/steps6.html] was likely spiritually in sync with Harry Emerson Fosdick and other influential Christian clergy members (such as Sam Shoemaker) rather than the other way around .... IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6034. . . . . . . . . . . . Blevins, Evangelical Roots of the Twelve Steps From: diazeztone . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/16/2009 12:14:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "We Were Powerless: Addiction, the Will, and the Evangelical Roots of the Twelve Steps" By John Blevins Assistant Professor of Pastoral Care Emory University, Atlanta, Georgia (john.blevins at emory.edu) September 15, 2009 http://www.religiondispatches.org/archive/scienceenvironment/1789/we_were_po werl\ ess:_addiction,_the_will,_and_the_evangelical_roots_of_the_twelve_steps [22] There are some things in this article that seem worthy of comment. LD Pierce aabibliography.com IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6035. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Defects vs shortcomings From: allan_gengler . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/19/2009 12:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I'm not sure if it's authoritative, but it's mentioned in the preface of "Drop The Rock" by Bill P. -- Al - - - - From: John Barton (jax760 at yahoo.com) I've never seen that in print. Joe & Charlie quote Nell Wing as having said that so maybe GTHBT should be checked? Regards - - - - --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Lee Carroll" wrote: > > I thought I had seen, years ago, somewhere in > print, an alleged comment by Bill W. that when > asked what was the difference between character > defects and shortcomings between step 6 and 7, > that he replied "I didn't mean any difference, > I just didn't want to repeat myself using the > same word twice, I didn't think that was good > writing," or something to that effect. > > I could have sworn I read it somewhere, but > now I can't find it in "As Bill Sees It" or > "AA Comes of Age" or "Pass It On." > > Can anybody give me any documentation for > that statement that Bill W. is supposed to > have made? A book and a page number? > > Lee Carroll, CPA > > (805) 938-1981 > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6036. . . . . . . . . . . . Memories from Montana in 1947 From: Cece Archer . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/21/2009 2:26:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I was a student nurse in Missoula, Montana 1945 to 1948. Our hospital always admitted drunks and gave them paraldehyde. I remember Tom Kelly and Larry Lynch who were admitted regularly to the wards. Tom K was a local bum but something happened to him after one of his discharges from the hospital. I never knew what happened to Larry. After that we would see Tom K. all dressed up with a book under his arm going to visit different patients in private room. I now believe that Tom K discovered Alcoholics Anonymous and was making 12 step calls. I didn't recall this and put it together until I myself found Sobriety in AA in 1973. Just thought I would share this little bit of history. Cecilia Archer IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6037. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Harry Emerson Fosdick From: kevinr1211 . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/21/2009 4:26:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII AA, while not a Christian organization, is based on liberal Christian thought, as was popularly available to our founders. (Analogy: I don't live in a Frank Lloyd Wright house, but important elements of its design could be attributed to the style he developed) I'm sometimes amused by certain people, Christian and non-Christian, with their objections to certain AA principals because of how those principals were originated. I like the way AA has developed since the early days, with an emphasis on fellowship. Imagine if Bill and Bob had chosen a more mystical spiritual direction with an emphasis on a more monastic or meditative way of life for alcoholics! Their chosen theological strain - Shoemaker as a great example - of the active spiritual life saved me... Maybe that's why Bill W. said "be quick to see where religious people are right, make use of what they offer." -k. - - - - --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, jenny andrews wrote: > > Episcopalian minister and Oxford Grouper Sam Shoemaker compared AA to Christianity in "Those 12 Steps as I understand them" (Grapevine, January 1964). "His (Shoemaker's) teaching provided most of the principles embodied in our 12 Steps..." (Grapevine, March 1973). Then there was Fulton Oursler, journalist and novelist ("The Greatest Story Ever Told"). Of the Bible he wrote, "In this one book (actually 66 books) are the two most interesting personalities in the whole world - God and yourself. The Bible is the story of God and man (sic), a love story in which you and I must write our own ending, our unfinished autobiography of the creature and the Creator." And, "Many of us crucify ourselves between two thieves - regret for the past and fear of the future." Oursler was in London to interview the archbishop of Canterbury when his wife, Grace O, convened the first known meeting of AA in Britain in her room at the swanky Dorchester Hotel, in Park Lane on March 31, 1947. > > But let's not forget that from early days, despite its genesis in first century Christianity, AA was reaching out to those of other faiths or no faith: "By personal religious affiliation we include Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Hindus and a sprinkling of Moslems and Buddhists..." (Foreword to Big Book second edition, 1955). > > Laurie A. > > - - - - > > From: Baileygc23@... (Baileygc23 at aol.com) > > People keep trying to tie AA to religion, but AA says there is no dogma. Bill W warned that others are sensitive to aggression in the name of spirituality. > > As Bill W. said, "A new comer may ask, certainly there is something I must believe or do." > > Bill added, " We cheerfully reply that in AA there are no musts." > Of course, our steps are only suggestions. There is one imperative, Bill W said, "Particularly was it imperative to work with others." But like everything else he wrote in the big book, that was only a suggested imperative. > > - - - - > > Original message from ArtSheehan@... > (ArtSheehan at msn.com) > > There is a phenomenon in AA where a number > of members after sobering up engage in > reading religious material and/or return > to church services and get the notion that > clergy members and religions have principles > that are "a lot like AA" when it is very > much the other way around. In terms of > primacy, AA's so-called "12 step approach" > (which began as a "6 step approach") > > [see http://hindsfoot.org/steps6.html] > > was likely spiritually in sync with Harry > Emerson Fosdick and other influential > Christian clergy members (such as Sam > Shoemaker) rather than the other way > around .... > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6038. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Who suffered from grave emotional and mental disorders? From: Kimball ROWE . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/21/2009 5:09:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Kimball Rowe and Anders (Gothenburg, Sweden) Responding to the original message from Jon Markle (serenitylodge at mac.com) which said "back then .... any labels used in AA literature meant something very different than they do, clinically, today .... Notwithstanding there were problems of a mental and emotional nature, we need to be very careful when discussing such labels" in terms of modern diagnostic terms. "Kimball ROWE" (roweke at msn.com) made this comment: Your observation and blanket statement would apply not only to diagnostic terminolgy (pre-DSM) and clinical settings, but would also apply to every term throughout the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous .... when it comes to emotional and mental disorders, it would be wise to stick with just those described by the Big Book itself and not apply this generation's classification systems on the environment of the 30s. - - - - Additional comments from: "serenityodaat" (agbystrom at gmail.com) Hi group! Could it not be that some of the "grave emotional and mental disorders" that the begining of chapter 5 talks about comes from the alcoholics real underlying problem - the hard core egoic entity? "The self will run riot" talked about later in the book. When I came to AA alot of people laughed when those lines from chapter 5 were read at the begining of the meeting. I never understood why they did that. Until I had written my own 4th step and started on my amends process ... Then I started to laugh too. I think those lines are connected to the "bedevilments" found in chapter 4, page 52: "We were having trouble with personal relationships, we couldn't control our emotional natures, we were a prey to misery and depression, we couldn't make a living, we had a feeling of uselessness, we were full of fear, we were unhappy, we couldn't seem to be of real help to other people." This is why I drank, and kept drinking beyond the point when I didn't wanna drink any more. My mind told me that alcohol was a legitimate solution to those bedevilments, and it felt true too. Now if that isn't grave emotional and mental disorder, I dont know what is! Of course, of course, there are a lot of other disorders that an alcoholic can suffer from, but just as Dr. Tiebout reported in his articles that once his patients had been subjected to the AA program, i.e. their alcoholism was treated, they were avaliable to his therapy. When I came to AA i had suffered from depression, paranoia and panic attacks for years, for as long as I can remember. I have been free of those for years now. Thats my take on it =) Anders Gothenburg, Sweden IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6039. . . . . . . . . . . . The Time recovery Machine ... new play in the works From: egojames007@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/23/2009 2:48:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Anyone interested in writing for a 2-man play? Bill W. meets a man from the future who has magically been sent via time machine to him prior to his interaction with Ebby, and the fellow is a big fan of Bill W's and is startled to see Bill W at his sickest, and the things that Bill thought he still had power over and the things he thought he could still manage. The Stranger actually will work with Bill about the symptoms and then work with him about the solution -- the solution from the big Book. It will be a comedy -- no budget -- a 2-man play done to raise money for homeless addicts and alcoholics in the Long Beach area. A non-fellowship play -- just a way to carry the message while raising money. It will be performed by 2 actors already chosen. Email me at (egojames007 at aol.com) if you're interested in writing scenes. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6040. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Defects vs shortcomings From: hdmozart . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/21/2009 4:22:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII GRAPEVINE ARTICLE: http://www.aagrapevine.org/da/article.php?id=39321&tb=3ZGE9cSUzQWp1bHkrMTk3N yZwZ\ z01 [23] AA Grapevine - July 1977 Vol. 34 No. 2 Word-worriers Members of our Fellowship are prone to spend hours of meeting time debating the precise meaning of words in the Steps and Traditions. When co-founder Bill W. was asked why he said "defects of character" in Step Six and "shortcomings" in Step Seven, he replied: "I just didn't want to use the same word twice." AAHL MESSAGE 2559: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/2559 * From the 1968 General Service Conference "Ask It Basket" Question: What is the difference between "Character Defects" and "Shortcomings"? Answer: A Staff Member said that she asked this question of Bill some years ago. Quite simply, he said he didn't want to use the same word twice. He intended the two terms to mean the same thing. * From the 1977 General Service Conference "Ask It Basket" Question: Could we republish the quotation from Bill W concerning the difference, or lack of difference, between "defects" and "shortcomings" in the Steps? Answer: Some years ago, we received many letters asking the difference between these terms. Bill said he did not want to use the same word twice. [Both of the GSC documents are available on the web] * Also contains a note from 'merton' that a letter was discovered in the GSO archives written by Bill - "As if by magic the computer revealed a letter by Bill saying that the meaning was intended to be synonomous and that the different words were merely semantic for literary flow" - - - - From: "bxdennis" (bxdennis at verizon.net) I asked this question of Frank M., GSO Archivist, in the early '90's and received a written reply that is very similar to what you have written here, Lee. That Bill had said that he simply wanted to use another word and not alter the meaning. Frank said that the question was posed in an "Ask It Basket" session at one of the General Service Conferences. Frank told me that it was a regular feature of Conferences while Bill was alive and attending to allow conference delegates to pose questions for Bill to answer. I might also mention that in the book, Alcoholics Anonymous, Chapter 6, Into Action (p. 76), the seventh step prayer includes the sentence: "I pray that you now remove from me every single defect of character" which was proof enough for me that shortcomings were the same as defects of character. But some doubters around here needed Bill's answer and I was delighted to get the archival information. Sorry but my files are not accessible to me right now to search for the letter but perhaps someone has a record of the Ask-It Basket Q & A. Dennis M. - - - - From: "planternva2000" (james.scarpine at verizon.net) From page 22 of "A New Pair of Glasses": <<....and there've been a million hours spent on "What's the difference between 'shortcomings' and 'defects of character'?" There's supposed to be a difference! I asked Bill, and he said, "I don't know, I think I didn't want to end two lines right next to each other with the same words. They mean the same thing." So that's going to knock a lot of arguments out, isn't it?>> Jim S. - - - - From: "kurtzern" (kurtzern at umich.edu) I recall seeing this expression in several of Bill's letters when I examined them back in the 1970s. I am pretty sure there are precise notes in Not-God. Bill was writing to people who inquired about the apparent distinction, often proposing some very imaginative interpretations. I understand that the archives are in the process of digitizing all that material, so a query to the archivist may be helpful. ernie kurtz IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6041. . . . . . . . . . . . Source of Poem From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/28/2009 5:24:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have a mid-forties vintage A.A. book with a poem inscribed in the front and I am curious about the source of the poem. It goes: We thank Thee our Father for the privilege of meeting again with men and women who have a common problem and help us to realize that thru Thine help can we hope to achieve understanding of a better way of life thru Jesus Christ The name written on the opposite page is Red Settles. I would appreciate any information on either the poem or the person. Tommy H in Baton Rouge IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6042. . . . . . . . . . . . How To Listen To God by John E. Batterson From: mrpetesplace . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/27/2009 9:14:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hey buffs. I've found the text on this in my search engine at aastuff.com however, none of the sites post the original date it was first published. I've only found dates when it was reprinted in Wally Paton's book of the same title. I believe it was a little booklet or pamphlet like "sharing", "the guidance of God", etc. I would like to find the actual date it was first printed. Thank you in advance. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6043. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill''s story: investigator for a surety company? From: Lois Stevens . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/27/2009 11:04:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does anyone know the name of the surety company which Bill W. worked for when he was c. 22 years old, right after the First World War? Big Book page 2: "I took a night law course, and obtained employment as investigator for a surety company .... My work took me about Wall Street and little by little I became interested in the market." Thank you. A grateful member - - - - From the moderator: What a Surety Bond Is http://www.sio.org/html/suretiesare.html Contract surety bonds guarantee the performance or financial obligations of others. In construction, contract surety bonds are provided to an obligee (for example, the construction project owner) by licensed surety companies that commit their assets to support the performance and financial obligations of the principal (typically the contractor). General contractors frequently also act as the obligee in the case of bonds provided by subcontractors. Surety bonds used in construction include bid, performance, and payment bonds as well as supply and maintenance bonds. Construction owners, contractors, lenders, public officials, and others involved in the construction project need to know about the companies that issue surety bonds and the role of the surety bond producer. What is a Surety Company? Most large property and casualty insurance companies have surety departments. In addition, there are some insurance companies for which surety bonds make up all or most of their business. In either case, in order for a company to write a surety bond in the United States, it must be licensed by the insurance department of one or more states in which the surety conducts business. The surety company’s thorough prequalification process greatly reduces the likelihood of contractor default. The surety company underwriter takes an in-depth look at the contractor’s entire business operations – credit history and financial strength, experience, equipment, work in progress, and management capability – and must be satisfied that the contractor is capable of completing the project before issuing a bond. Should the contractor experience difficulties on a project, the surety company may elect to assist the contractor to head off default. In many cases, the owner may not even be aware of the surety’s involvement. In the unfortunate event that the owner declares the contractor in default, the surety must investigate the claim, analyze all options, and choose a course of action. If the contractor is in a default situation, the surety may finance the original contractor or provide support to ensure project completion, arrange for a new contractor to complete the project, rebid the job, or pay the cost of completion up to the penal sum of the bond, depending on the options in the particular bond form. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6044. . . . . . . . . . . . Origins of the Seventh Step Prayer From: jaynebirch55 . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/30/2009 4:00:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Did Bill W. write the Seventh Step Prayer or was it taken from an outside source? Big Book page 76 "My Creator, I am now willing that you should have all of me, good and bad. I pray that you now remove from me every single defect of character which stands in the way of my usefulness to you and my fellows. Grant me strength, as I go out from here, to do your bidding. Amen." Thanks Jayne x x Barking Big Book study x IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6045. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill''s story: investigator for a surety company? From: Rick Benchoff . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/1/2009 3:57:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From this web site: http://www.silkworth.net/aafiles/timelines_public.html Late summer 1921: Bill W found work as a fraud and embezzlement investigator for the US Fidelity and Guarantee Co, and got his first glimpse of Wall St. Shortly after going to work at USF&G, he received an employment invitation from Thomas Edison but decided instead to stay around Wall St. (PIO 64, BW-RT 121-123, BW-FH 31) Be well, Rick Benchoff Hagerstown, Maryland - - - - Original message from: Lois Stevens Does anyone know the name of the surety company which Bill W. worked for when he was c. 22 years old, right after the First World War? Big Book page 2: "I took a night law course, and obtained employment as investigator for a surety company .... My work took me about Wall Street and little by little I became interested in the market." Thank you. A grateful member IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6046. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Differences in Multilith Copies of Original Manuscript? From: Lauren Lukens . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/2/2009 3:53:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Found your e-mail that I had saved - just got the copies from my bank box so I can give a talk in a week or so and my manuscript does NOT have an apostrophe, but does have the two title pages. Mom's note with it says that it "appears to have been about half way through the 50 of so she typed." Hope this helps. Laurie --- On Fri, 9/7/07, schaberg43 wrote: From: schaberg43 Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Differences in Multilith Copies of Original Manuscript? To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, September 7, 2007, 3:02 PM I have recently been traveling around the country looking at copies of the Original Manuscript - the multilith printing that was made and circulated for comments before our Big Book was first published in April of 1939. As has been noted before, there are TWO versions of the title page to this printing. Although everything else in these copies 'seems' to be identical: one version has a title page reading "Alcoholics Anonymous" and the other adds an incorrect apostrophe, as in "Alcoholic's Anonymous." In the past few months, I've been able to inspect seven copies of the Original Manuscript - two of which did not have the apostrophe and five of which that did. Now here's what I found to be interesting. In all of the copies that I have so far seen without an apostrophe in the title, there are two extra "Index" pages that are not found in the copies that do have an apostrophe. Maybe there were different printings or, perhaps, just different collations and bindings done for these multilith copies - but there seems to be uniform differences between these two "issues" of the Original Manuscript. So, here's my question: DO ANY OF THE FOLKS ON THE AAHISTORYLOVERS BOARD OWN OR HAVE ACCESS TO A MULTILITH COPY OF THE ORIGINAL MANUSCRIPT THAT THEY COULD INSPECT TO EITHER CONFIRM OR DENY THIS COINCIDENCE OF THE APOSTROPHE AND THE INDEX PAGES? NOTE: No apostrophe copies consulted: 1 in NYC AA Archive, my own (Jim Burwell) copy Apostrophe copies consulted: 2 in NYC AA Archive, Sotheby's 06/07, a copy I sold in 02/07, a private collection in CA. Thanks, Old Bill IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6047. . . . . . . . . . . . Another Prayer From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/2/2009 12:42:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I came across another prayer in a mid-40s pamphlet and am wondering if anyone can enlighten me as to its origin. God bless this meeting and the members gathered here today. Help us to make this club a haven of strength and comfort, giving to all who seek help here, the beauty and friendliness of home -- which shall be as a shield against temptation of all kinds -- and against loneliness and despair. Bless those who are going forth from this house to fight a gallant fight, to know suffering: and bless those who come here to rest. Those who must re-adjust themselves to face life once more. For Jesus' sake. Tommy H in Baton Rouge IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6048. . . . . . . . . . . . New film on alcoholism in France: Le dernier pour la route From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/3/2009 4:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Sent in by Fiona D. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/sep/27/film-france-drinking-problem The posters, on hoardings across France, show a slightly dishevelled media executive in his 50s, on a jetty, a bag in his hand, a Swiss lake behind, staring with vacant, battered, tired eyes into the middle distance. He is an unlikely hero, but Hervé Chabalier, author of the book "One for the Road" (Le dernier pour la route), was being lauded by French journalists last week after a film based on his battle with alcoholism came out to critical acclaim. "Truthful, clear and sober," said the Nouvel Observateur weekly magazine. A story that is "profoundly human", said the mass-circulation daily Ouest-France. But the film, in which Chabalier is played by François Cluzet, has gone beyond simple entertainment, provoking an unprecedented debate on alcoholism, long a taboo subject in France. Chabalier, 67, founder of the press agency Capa and a renowned foreign correspondent, has not drunk for seven years since the treatment for alcoholism on which the film is based. He said that there was "denial" of the problem in his native land. "Everywhere you are pushed to drink. It is a very strong social symbol. For having fun, for crying, there is alcohol. It is part of France. But the moment it goes too far, then you are cast out," he told the Observer. "People don't want to talk about it or recognise it." Though the French are often seen, and see themselves, as a nation of moderate drinkers, certainly compared with Britons, statistics reveal similar levels of alcohol consumption and dependence. According to Inserm, a French public health research centre, five million French people have medical, psychological or social problems linked to alcohol abuse and at least two million are dependent â“ levels comparable with anywhere in Europe. "National stereotypes strongly affect how alcoholism is viewed," said Dr Philippe Batel, a practising psychiatrist in Paris and an author. "Here we see our own alcohol consumption as part of our culture of l'art de vivre, of our history as a wine-producing country, and as part of our treasured gastronomy. We look at drinking in Britain and see a simple desire to get drunk. "But in fact these cultural models are totally false. In the UK, alcoholism is more visible. In France, it stays hidden. But the levels are the same." The new film is also about alcoholism as an illness, not a social problem, Chabalier says. One of the reasons he wanted to tell his story was that it is "so typical". "We have an idea of the alcoholic as the smelly guy in the gutter. But I've had a very successful life professionally. I could go to work and spend a day in a state of semi-permanent inebriation without difficulty. Alcoholics are very good at hiding things. It was only at the end that things got out of hand." His book, which sold 150,000 copies, was written from notes taken during his stay in a Swiss clinic. "I jotted things down to remember them to help me when I had left, and that became a diary which became the book. I had a huge response. People were writing to me saying that now they could talk about their illness with their wives or husbands. "Alcoholics think they can deal with their problem themselves but they can't. They need to get help." According to the French Observatory on Drugs and Drugs Addiction, the proportion of French adults having or having had a problem with alcohol use has been stable since the early 1990s and in terms of overall consumption the French drink around 10% more units of alcohol each year than the British. Those most at risk of alcoholism were men in managerial jobs aged between 45 and 60. One phenomenon increasingly visible in France, especially among young people, is "binge-drinking", though it is remains a relatively minor problem. Last year an attempt by the government to ban clubs and bars from offering evenings of unlimited drinks on payment of a fixed ticket price provoked a revolt from wine-makers, who said it would mean the end of wine-tasting events and accused the government of "undermining our national heritage". France, like Norway, already has a total ban on all alcohol advertising on television and billboards. Recently the issue of internet advertising has provoked new arguments. The fight against alcoholism in France has a long history. A report in the New York Times told readers of a congress held in Paris "to deliberate upon means to eradicate the evil of excessive alcohol consumption in the republic". "Eminent men of letters and clergy of various denominations [were] joining hands in a fight against the common foe," the newspaper's reporter said. The date was 24 January 1904. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6049. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: How To Listen To God by John E. Batterson From: glennccc . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/4/2009 2:48:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII http://www.aabacktobasics.org/B2BArticles.html says that: "With the roots of AA in the Oxford Group, John E. Batterson in 1939 wrote a short guide, 'How to Listen to God.'" _______________________________ http://www.gentle-stress-relief.com/stress-relief-resources.html also talks about the work: "How to Listen to God: This is a 3 page pamphlet written in the 1930's by John E. Batterson. John was a person friend of Dr. Bob, one of the co founders of Alcoholics Anonymous. This pamphlet was widely used and distributed in the early, very successful years of A.A. _______________________________ http://spiritualsteps.com/2007/3page.pdf gives the same information: "This Oxford Group Pamphlet was written in the 1930's. John E. Batterson was a personal friend of Dr Bob, AA Co-Founder." _______________________________ Does anyone have any more information on the man? He is sometimes referred to as a "Chaplain." Can the statement that he was "a personal friend" of Dr. Bob's be verified? Was he part of the Akron Oxford Group? Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) - - - - Ernest Kurtz (kurtzern at umich.edu) sent in two additional references to the work: http://www.aabibliography.com/howtolistengod.htm http://www.aabacktobasics.org/How2Listen2Godpgm.html - - - - --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "mrpetesplace" wrote: > > Hey buffs. I've found the text on this in my search engine at aastuff.com however, none of the sites post the original date it was first published. I've only found dates when it was reprinted in Wally Paton's book of the same title. I believe it was a little booklet or pamphlet like "sharing", "the guidance of God", etc. I would like to find the actual date it was first printed. > > Thank you in advance. > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6050. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: How To Listen To God by John E. Batterson From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/7/2009 6:51:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I found him in some newspaper articles. In August, 1934 there was a Oxford Group program in Sandusky, Ohio, about 60 miles west of Cleveland. One of the speakers was "John Batterson of Delaware, college student." Actually he seems to have grown up in Ohio (not sure about this), so maybe he was in school in Delaware. Several of the other speakers were from Akron. So it certainly makes sense that he would have been a friend of Dr. Bob. In 1942, the Rev. John Batterson was pastor of the Methodist church in Middletown, New York. In 1948 he was occasionally preaching at the Union Protestant church in Herald Harbor, Maryland, but his primary position was Chaplain at Fort Meade. As Second Army Chaplain, Major John E. Batterson spoke at a training conference for chaplains in the Army Reserve and National Guard, in Charleston West Virginia in April 1950. Cora - - - - Message 6049 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/6049 Re: How To Listen To God by John E. Batterson http://www.aabacktobasics.org/B2BArticles.html says that: "With the roots of AA in the Oxford Group, John E. Batterson in 1939 wrote a short guide, 'How to Listen to God.'" _______________________________ http://www.gentle-stress-relief.com/stress-relief-resources.html also talks about the work: "How to Listen to God: This is a 3 page pamphlet written in the 1930's by John E. Batterson. John was a person friend of Dr. Bob, one of the co founders of Alcoholics Anonymous. This pamphlet was widely used and distributed in the early, very successful years of A.A. _______________________________ http://spiritualsteps.com/2007/3page.pdf gives the same information: "This Oxford Group Pamphlet was written in the 1930's. John E. Batterson was a personal friend of Dr Bob, AA Co-Founder." _______________________________ Does anyone have any more information on the man? He is sometimes referred to as a "Chaplain." Can the statement that he was "a personal friend" of Dr. Bob's be verified? Was he part of the Akron Oxford Group? Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6051. . . . . . . . . . . . Holding hands during the Lord''s Prayer From: buck030303 . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/4/2009 7:15:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Can anyone tell me the history of holding hands at the end of the meetings during the Lord's Prayer? I have heard it was practiced in the beginning of AA and also that it evolved from 70's rehabs? There are a lot of different views and opinions about this practice and I have heard many different "origins"... Any help would be appreciated! Thank you! Buck from Pasadena, Maryland IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6052. . . . . . . . . . . . Saying the Lord''s Prayer and holding hands From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/11/2009 6:46:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII It seemed like a good time to put some of the old messages on this topic back up on the Message Board. - - - - From: "ArtSheehan" Date: Sun Oct 23, 2005 3:53pm Subject: RE: The Lord's Prayer, Or Not - Part 1 of 2 A Letter From Bill Wilson About The Use Of The Lord's Prayer April 14, 1959 Dear Russ, Am right sorry for my delay in answering. Lois and I were a long time out of the country and this was followed by an attack of the marathon type of flu that has been around here in New York. We are okay now, however, but I did want to explain my delay. Now about the business of adding the Lord's Prayer to each A.A. meeting. This practice probably came from the Oxford Groups who were influential in the early days of AA. You have probably noted in AA Comes of Age what the connection of these people in AA really was. I think saying the Lord's Prayer was a custom of theirs following the close of each meeting. Therefore it quite easily got shifted into a general custom among us. Of course there will always be those who seem to be offended by the introduction of any prayer whatever into an ordinary AA gathering. Also, it is sometimes complained that the Lord's Prayer is a Christian document. Nevertheless this Prayer is of such widespread use and recognition that the arguments of its Christian origin seems to be a little farfetched. It is also true that most AAs believe in some kind of God and that communication and strength is obtainable through His grace. Since this is the general consensus it seems only right that at least the Serenity Prayer and the Lord's Prayer be used in connection with our meetings. It does not seem necessary to defer to the feelings of our agnostic and atheist newcomers to the extent of completely hiding our light under a bushel. However, around here, the leader of the meeting usually asks those to join him in the Lord's Prayer who feel that they would care to do so. The worst that happens to the objectors is that they have to listen to it. This is doubtless a salutary exercise in tolerance at their stage of progress. So that's the sum of the Lord's Prayer business as I recall it. Your letter made me wonder in just what connection you raise the question. Meanwhile, please know just how much Lois and I treasure the friendship of you both. May Providence let our paths presently cross one of these days. Devotedly yours, Bill Wilson - - - - From: "ArtSheehan" Date: Sun Oct 23, 2005 4:27pm Subject: RE: The Lord's Prayer, Or Not - Part 2 of 2 In regards to "Christian" prayers at AA meetings: As Bill Sees It, pg 293: "He can do this because he now accepts a God who is All - and who loves all. When he says, 'Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name,' he deeply and humbly means it ...." Unfortunately, some members focus on who wrote the Lord's Prayer instead of its content and substance. The Serenity Prayer as a "non-Christian" prayer: If someone thinks the Serenity Prayer is not a "Christian" prayer, they might want to think again or do a bit of research. Compared to the Lord's Prayer, the Serenity Prayer is just as, actually more, "Christian" in its full version (we only say the first part): "God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference. Living one day at a time, enjoying one moment at a time. Accepting hardship as a pathway to peace. Taking, as Jesus did, this sinful world as it is, not as I would have it. Trusting that You will make all things right if I surrender to Your will. So that I may be reasonably happy in this life and supremely happy with You in the next." Some unfortunately alter the wording of the prayer from "as Jesus did" to "as He did". References to so-called "Christian" prayers appear throughout AA literature. The term "Thy will be done" is from the Lord's Prayer (i.e. "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done" from the book of Matthew). The book of James is the source of the term "Faith without works is dead." Big Book references: Pgs 67 and 88: "Thy will be done" Pg 85: "Thy will (not mine) be done" Pgs 14, 76 and 88: "Faith without works is dead" Pg 87: "If not members of religious bodies, we sometimes select and memorize a few set prayers which emphasize the principles we have been discussing. There are many helpful books also. Suggestions about these may be obtained from one's priest, minister, or rabbi. Be quick to see where religious people are right. Make use of what they offer." 12&12 References: Pg 32: "Thy will be done" Pgs 41, 102, 103: "Thy will, not mine, be done" The 12&12 and AA Comes of Age also contain the so-called "11th Step Prayer." Its actual title is the "Peace Prayer of Saint Francis" (a Christian Saint). It was Bill W's favorite prayer. However, St Francis didn't write it (according to Franciscan web site). But it is a beautiful [and in its origins a Christian] prayer. Extracts from Bill W's 1960 talk to the National Clergy Conference on Alcoholism "... Every thoughtful AA realizes that the divine grace, which has always flowed through the Church, is the ultimate foundation on which AA rests. Our spiritual origins are Christian." [Later in the talk] "If these misgivings had real substance, they would be serious indeed. But, as I have already indicated, Alcoholics Anonymous cannot in the least be regarded as a new religion. Our Twelve Steps have no theological content, except that which speaks of "God as we understand Him." This means that each individual AA member may define God according to whatever faith or creed he may have. Therefore there isn't the slightest interference with the religious views of any of our membership. The rest of the Twelve Steps define moral attitudes and helpful practices, all of them precisely Christian in character. Therefore, as far as they go, the Steps are good Christianity; indeed they are good Catholicism, something which Catholic writers have affirmed more than once." General Service Conference Advisory Actions: 1952: "all Conference sessions are to open with the Serenity Prayer and close with the Lord's Prayer" 1954: "the General Service Conference will end with the recitation of the Lord's Prayer" 1975: "convention meetings will open with the Serenity Prayer and close with the Lord's Prayer" The AA Group Pamphlet Pg 16: "whether open or closed, AA group meetings are conducted by AA members, who determine the format of their meetings. [Pg 19] many meetings close with members reciting the Lord's Prayer or the Serenity Prayer." Epilogue All references to so-called "Christian" prayers in Conference-approved literature and meetings do not in any way imply affiliation with, or endorsement of, any religion. Cheers Arthur - - - - From Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) When the AA people met at Dr. Bob and Anne's house, they finished by reciting the Lord's Prayer. See Doctor Bob and the Good Oldtimers pp. 141 and 148, also 261 (Clarence Snyder's AA meetings in Cleveland) and 183. This made good sense, in terms of their emphasis on the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5-7), since the Lord's Prayer is taken from the middle of that work (Matthew 6:9-13). - - - - Message #2247 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/2247 From Jim Blair (jblair@videotron.ca) The question of holding hands I have looked into and it appears that at the International in Toronto in 1965, the attendees were asked to hold hands and join together as the "Responsibility Declaration" was read for the first time. Older members seen to recollect that "hand holding" grew out of the Toronto experience. - - - - Message #2248 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/2248 From "Robert Stonebraker" (rstonebraker212 at insightbb.com) The "Lord's Prayer" carried over from the Oxford Group and was used at the first AA meeting that Clarence Snyder started at Abby Golrick's home; 2345 Stillman Rd, Cleveland Hts., Ohio, on May 11th, 1939. For verification please read page 261 of "Dr. Bob And The Good old Timers." - - - - Message #2250 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/2250 "Bruce Lallier" (brucelallier at zoominternet.net) I first remember the holding of hands from the early to mid 70's in Connecticut. Message #2257 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/2257 From "Robert Stonebraker" (rstonebraker212 at insightbb.com) I was living in Southern California [in] 1975 and the custom of holding hands was then prevalent at most groups. However, in 1978, I moved to a mid-sized town, Richmond, Indiana, and the practice was not yet in vogue. But by the early 1980s most of the groups had begun holding hands. Of course, here I am not talking about the Responsibility Declaration, but the Lord's Prayer. Message #2589 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/2589 From: "Mel Barger" (melb at accesstoledo.com) I would say that [holding hands while reciting the Lord's Prayer] began in the mid to late 1970s and just seemed to spread throughout AA. But there are still some stalwarts who stand apart [when reciting the prayer] rather than hold hands, and this is their right. Mel Barger [Note from moderator: Mel's personal experience with the AA program goes back to 1950, and he has also done a good deal of research on AA history going back even earlier, to the first beginnings of the movement.] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6053. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: How To Listen To God by John E. Batterson From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/10/2009 6:20:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Tom Hickcox and Jared Lobdell: "Delaware" in this case is not the state, but a small city (33,700 pop.) about twenty miles north of Columbus, Ohio. At 17:51 10/7/2009, corafinch wrote: >I found him in some newspaper articles. In >August, 1934 there was a Oxford Group program >in Sandusky, Ohio, about 60 miles west of >Cleveland. One of the speakers was "John >Batterson of Delaware, college student." >Actually he seems to have grown up in Ohio >(not sure about this), so maybe he was in >school in Delaware. Several of the other >speakers were from Akron. - - - - From Tom Hickcox (cometkazie1 at cox.net) I would note that there is a Delaware, Ohio located not too distant from Sandusky, about 85 mi, and there is a college there, Ohio Wesleyan Unversity, where my brother has taught for several decades. Tommy H in Baton Rouge - - - - From: "J. Lobdell" (jlobdell54 at hotmail.com) Delaware is Delaware, Ohio, where John Edward Batterson (1910-1991) attended Ohio Wesleyan University (Class of 1935) in preparation for the ministry. He graduated with a Bachelor's degree in Engineering from the Ohio State University in Columbus in 1933 (editor of the OSU Engineer), was involved in aviation engineering before entering the ministry, was Chaplain (I think as Lt. Col.) at Fort Huachuca [Arizona] in 1956 (his SS card was from Arizona) and died at Huntsville, Alabama. I can find no particular Akron connection up to 1935 but I don't know where he was between 1935 and 1940. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6054. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Holding hands during the Lord''s Prayer From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/11/2009 9:02:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Jim Blair, Jared Lobdell, Bob Stonebraker, Sherry Hartsell, and Ben Humphreys Holding hands during a prayer started at the AA International in Toronto in 1965, when Bill Wilson was still around (he died in 1971), and the practice seems to have been further popularized after it was done at the AA International in Denver in 1975. So fundamentally this practice of holding hands seems to have come straight from AA headquarters, from the New York GSO itself. The oldtimers who have written in, both in this message and in Message #6052, say that they never saw it done in ordinary local AA meetings until the early to mid 1970's, and that it only started to become a common practice over the course of the 1980's. Glenn C., Moderator, AAHistoryLovers - - - - From Jim Blair (jblair@videotron.ca) in Message #2247 (repeated in Message #6052) The question of holding hands I have looked into and it appears that at the International in Toronto in 1965, the attendees were asked to hold hands and join together as the "Responsibility Declaration" was read for the first time. Older members seen to recollect that "hand holding" grew out of the Toronto experience. - - - - From: "J. Lobdell" (jlobdell54 at hotmail.com) I can't say where it originated but there is significant anecdotal evidence that it was brought back to many groups in many areas from the Denver International Convention (1975). - - - - From: "Robert Stonebraker" (rstonebraker212 at comcast.net) The founding group in Richmond, Indiana, began in 1946. They never held hands till the mid-1980s, although some of the other Richmond groups started doing so in the early 1980s. Bob S. - - - - From: "sherry c. hartsell" (hartsell at etex.net) from Gilmer, Texas (a small town in east Texas, pop. 4,799). He is 74 years old, and has been sober since since December 29, 1967. He tells us that "it was not a practice when I sobered up." - - - - From: "Ben Humphreys" (blhump272 at sctv.coop) I can remember when I first came to AA in the middle 70s we all sat at the table for the whole meeting. It was in the later 70s that we started holding hands and saying the Lord's Prayer .... I can still see (in my mind) some of the oldtimers standing with their arms folded in ... protest. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6055. . . . . . . . . . . . Fr. Pfau''s middle name From: nuevenueve@ymail.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/12/2009 4:20:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII What did the "S" stand for in Ralph S. Pfau? What was his middle name? (The man who was the Father John Doe of the Golden Books) Thank you. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6056. . . . . . . . . . . . Groups named after Fr. Pfau From: nuevenueve@ymail.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/12/2009 4:20:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Were or are there any AA groups named "Fr. Pfau" or "Fr. John Doe" appearing in AA Directories, anywhere in the world? Thank you. - - - - From GC the moderator: Yes, it is against present New York GSO policy to name AA groups after individual AA members, living or dead. But this has never been totally enforceable, and -- to give just one example -- it was in fact the case that for many years, the Saturday Evening Group in Indianapolis, Indiana, was called the Meyerson Group, in honor of Irwin Meyerson, who made the twelfth step call on Doherty Sheerin, the founder of AA in Indianapolis. See: http://hindsfoot.org/nindy2.html See also: http://hindsfoot.org/nIndy1.html http://hindsfoot.org/Nhome.html And similar things have happened in other parts of the world. So what Juan is asking is, NOT whether this is present New York GSO recommended policy, but whether it ever did in fact happen. Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6057. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Fr. Pfau''s middle name From: glennccc . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/14/2009 5:14:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Birth and early years: Ralph Sylvester Pfau was born on November 10, 1904 in Indianapolis, Indiana, to Charles Pfau and Elizabeth Smith Pfau (his father was of French background and his mother of German background). He was baptized on December 4 in the old Holy Cross Church in that city, which was a rather modest brick structure, for the parish had only been founded nine years earlier by Irish immigrants (the present large stone church was not built until 1922, when Ralph was eighteen). Ralph's father, who made his living doing sales with a horse and buggy, was a heavy drinker, almost certainly an alcoholic. He died when Ralph was only four, probably as a consequence of his drinking. But he left his family with a building on North Rural Street in Indianapolis, with a place for them to live upstairs and a downstairs that could be rented out for commercial purposes, so Ralph's mother was able to stay home and spend her full time taking care of her children. Ralph was the youngest of the six (all of them boys). Ralph's brother Jerome ("Jerry"), who was six years older, seems to have acted as a father figure (and sometimes deeply frustrated would-be caretaker) to him on numerous occasions through the years, even after they were both adults. There was a strong tradition in the family of service to the church. Ralph's Uncle George was a priest and his Uncle Al in particular was the sixth Bishop of Nashville, Tennessee. This was the Most Rev. Alphonse John Smith (November 14, 1883-December 16, 1935), who during his early career established the parish of St. Joan of Arc in Indianapolis (where Ralph was appointed as an assistant pastor in 1943 when he finally hit bottom and telephoned A.A.). When he became bishop of Nashville in 1924 (the year Ralph turned twenty), he found that there were only a few priests in his diocese who actually came from Tennessee, and only ten Tennessee seminarians preparing to enter the priesthood. Within two years he had recruited sixty young Tennesseans to enter seminary, and was busy building churches and schools all over Tennessee. The family (and particularly Ralph's mother) had decided when Ralph and his brother Jerry were little boys that the two of them were also going to become priests, and continue the family tradition of clerical greatness. Jerry, who was six years older, was ordained around 1923, when Ralph was eighteen; he was then sent to Rome to earn a Doctorate of Sacred Theology, and was already back in Indiana, teaching at Saint Mary-of-the-Woods College near Terre Haute, when Ralph was ordained deacon on May 29, 1928. This was the nation's oldest Catholic liberal arts college for women, founded by Mother Théodore Guérin, Indiana's first saint. It was a quite distinguished place to be teaching for a Catholic academic at that point in history, and in particular, it was firmly linked into the ruling circles within the Archdiocese of Indianapolis. But one can see the problem which this represented for the young Ralph. In most Catholic families of that period, having a son in the priesthood was in and of itself an accomplishment of enormous note, even if he never rose beyond the parish ministry. But in Ralph's family, one was expected to be not only a capable priest, but also a great scholar or administrator, who could earn yet further renown for the family. There was an additional difficulty here. Jerry was an alcoholic just like Ralph. But Jerry managed to last quite a few years longer than Ralph as what is sometimes called a "functioning alcoholic," meaning that he did not lose his job because of it, or get arrested for drunken driving, or encounter any other kind of major public difficulties because of his compulsive drinking. In addition, Jerry had Ralph convinced for many years that one was not an alcoholic as long as one did not drink before noon. So Ralph would use drugs (barbiturates and sedatives) to endure painfully through the mornings, keeping his eye on the clock at all times, and would force himself to wait until noon (on the minute) before throwing down his first desperate drink of the day. Jerry however did not escape the consequences of his drinking forever. He ended up a tragic figure, finally dying in June 1957 when he was around 59 years old, because of problems which were at least partially brought on by his alcoholism. He was hospitalized in Louisville and still trying to bribe the nurses to bring him a bottle as he lay there dying. Putting all of these piece together, we can see how Ralph, during his childhood and adolescence, was put under a great deal of psychological pressure by his family background. Furthermore, as not only the youngest child (the baby of the family), but also as the boy "who was going to become a priest," young Ralph was given enormous privilege. According to what his brothers said later on, he was totally spoiled. At breakfast time, if an egg yolk was broken, his mother would cook him another egg. That sort of treatment created in him a sense of entitlement where -- even after he was an adult, and even though he knew better intellectually -- a part of him down at the subconscious level believed that people around him were supposed automatically to give him whatever he asked for. On the other hand, he was simultaneously put under enormous pressure to behave like a little plaster saint instead of like a normal small boy, and to end up at the top in every sphere of activity into which he entered. As Ralph's niece commented, many years later, "Uncle Ralph felt like he never came up to [his mother's] expectations," no matter what he accomplished. Seminary: In 1922, at the age of seventeen, Ralph graduated from Cathedral High School in Indianapolis and began studying for the priesthood at the seminary at St. Meinrad Archabbey down in the hills along the Ohio river. Indiana was still a largely rural state at that time: young Ralph was able to make most of the journey by local trains, but the last stage was by horse and buggy -- a one-horse shay with a fringe on top -- down crude dirt roads. The abbey church at St. Meinrad was set on top of a hill, surrounded by green woods and rolling fields. The Benedictine monks who lived in the abbey also ran the seminary. The boys slept in a sixty-bed dormitory, where each boy was given a bed, a chair, and a row of hangers on the wall. The outside toilets were sixty yards away. Scrupulosity and perfectionism: Ralph got through his first six years at St. Meinrad with no notable problems, but then fell into a long period of debilitating psychological turmoil which continued with greater and lesser degrees of severity from the Spring of 1928 to the Spring of 1929. The onset came when he was scheduled to be ordained deacon on May 29, 1928. Young Ralph, now twenty-three, could not eat. He could not sleep, he could not think straight, and torrents of thoughts circled around and around in his mind as he grew ever more frantic. His obsessive perfectionism was so great that he did not feel morally "worthy" to be a priest. The two advisors whom he went to both said the same thing. First Fr. Anselm told him, "This is just a matter of scruples." Then he went to talk about his fears with Monsignor Joseph E. Hamill, the Chancellor of the diocese, who likewise told him, "This is just scruples." Ralph made himself go through the ordination service, but afterwards, he said, "I was so depressed I wished I were dead." The summer which followed was a nightmare. Doctors in Indianapolis finally put him on barbiturates and powerful bromide compounds. When he returned to St. Meinrad in the fall for his final year of seminary, he once again was unable to eat or sleep, and by the middle of October was in the depths of total depression. He tried all the traditional methods of prayer and meditation, including all of the recommended Catholic spiritual literature of his era, such as Louis Blosius's Comfort of the Faint-Hearted, but none of this seemed to help much. Fervent prayers to the Blessed Virgin Mary finally seemed to lift him out of the worst of his distress, but then the night before his ordination to the priesthood, he came down with a 104 degree temperature and had a complete physical collapse. The next day, May 21, 1929, he was ordained priest while sitting on a chair instead of standing and kneeling through the course of the service like the other ordinands. As was noted, the priests whom he had consulted had all diagnosed Ralph's problem as one of scrupulosity, using the old traditional technical term from Catholic moral theology. A scrupulus in Latin was a small pebble, and hence by extension, could be used to refer to worries over tiny things, anxiety over something small which nevertheless nagged continuously like a pebble in one's shoe. In the modern English metaphor, it was a pathological compulsion to turn molehills into mountains. ______________________________ Taken from Glenn F. Chesnut, "Fr. Ralph Pfau," which is to be Chapter 4 in the forthcoming book: "Recovery Through Catholic Eyes: Important Catholic Figures in the History of the Recovery Movement: Essays in Honor of Ernest Kurtz," edited by Oliver J. Morgan, Ph.D., Professor and Chair, Department of Counseling and Human Services, University of Scranton. To be published by Guest House Institute and Sacred Heart University Press. - - - - Additional note: Some of Ralph Pfau's records are at the Archdiocesan Archives in Indianapolis. His grade reports from St. Meinrad's are in Latin (this was the old days). They Latinized "Ralph" on his records as "Raphael" (after the Archangel). - - - - --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "nuevenueve@..." wrote: > > What did the "S" stand for in Ralph S. Pfau? > What was his middle name? > > (The man who was the Father John Doe of the > Golden Books) > > Thank you. > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6058. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Groups named after Fr. Pfau From: MarionORedstone@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/13/2009 9:57:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Glenn, Indianapolis continues to rebel. We do have a Pfau group that is still meeting. Marion - - - - From: dctim (dctim322 at yahoo.com) Is there a traditional prohibition on naming groups after persons? - - - - SEE NEXT MESSAGE, FROM ARTHUR SHEEHAN - - - - IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6059. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Groups named after Fr. Pfau From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/14/2009 12:50:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII We might consider having a history discussion on the General Service Structure to understand what GSO does and doesn't do. GSO does not make or recommend policy nor do they attempt to "enforce" any (copyrights notwithstanding). They are an administrative office within AA World Services (AAWS). Policy matters are a function of the General Service Board, the boards of AAWS and Grapevine and the Conference. Anonymity is not a matter of policy - it is a matter of principle (the spiritual foundation of all our Traditions). The New Group Information form, for group registration, states "A.A.'s Traditions suggest that a group not be named after a facility or member (living or deceased), and that the name of a group not imply affiliation with any sect, religion, organization or institution." The preceding does not derive from GSO, it derives from AA's Traditions. The New Group Information form is also contained in the AA Service Manual which is Conference-approved literature. A group or individual can pretty much do whatever they elect to do - whether they should do whatever they elect to do is a matter of separate discussion. I believe the substance and tone of what might make good anonymity practice for groups and members can be found in Bill W's commentary in AA Comes of Age on pgs 136-137: "A year after his passing, I visited the Akron cemetery where Dr. Bob and Anne lie. The simple stone says not a word about Alcoholics Anonymous. Some people may think that this wonderful couple carried personal anonymity too far when they so firmly refused to use the words "Alcoholics Anonymous" even on their own burial stone. For one, I do not think so. I think that this moving and final example of self-effacement will prove of more permanent worth to AA than any amount of public attention or any great monument." The General service Board and Conference has recommended the following by policy and advisory action: 1960 General Service Board approved the policy statement: "The Board believes that AA members generally think it unwise to break the anonymity of a member even after his death, but that in each situation the final decision must rest the family. A few states are particularly stringent with respect to the problem, interpreting such anonymity breaks as a breach of privacy subject to legal action. 1968 General Service Conference Advisory Action: recommended that the showing of the full face of an AA member at the level of press, TV and films be considered a violation of the Anonymity Tradition, even though the name is withheld. That the Board adopt the following policy statement to be used in answering inquiries relating to posthumous breaking of anonymity: The board generally believes that AA members think it unwise to break the anonymity of a member even after his death, but that in each situation the final decision must rest with the family. 1988 General Service Conference Advisory Action: It was recommended that the 1971 General Service Conference Action be reaffirmed: "A.A. members generally think it unwise to break the anonymity of a member even after his death, but in each situation the final decision must rest with the family." Further, the A.A. Archives continue to protect the anonymity of deceased A.A. members as well as other members. 1993 General Service Conference Advisory Action: each area delegate encourage discussions within all AA groups on the spiritual principles of Anonymity, including photographs, publications and posthumous anonymity, as related to our Eleventh and Twelfth Traditions. 2007 General Service Conference Advisory Action: A section on posthumous anonymity be developed by the Publications Department for inclusion in the pamphlet "Understanding Anonymity" and a draft be brought back to the 2008 Conference Committee on Public Information for consideration. The "Understanding Anonymity" pamphlet (which is Conference-approved literature states the following: Q. I maintain an Internet Web site and also belong to an online meeting. At what level should I protect my anonymity on the internet? A. Publicly accessible aspects of the Internet such as Web sites featuring text, graphics, audio and video ought to be considered another form of "public media." Thus, they need to be treated in the same manner as press, radio, TV and films. This means that full names and faces should not be used. However, the level of anonymity in email, online meetings and chat rooms would be a personal decision. Cheers Arthur IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6060. . . . . . . . . . . . Nan Robertson dies, author of Getting Better: Inside A.A. From: aadavidi . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/14/2009 5:46:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Nan Robertson dies, the author of the 1988 book "Getting Better: Inside Alcoholics Anonymous." http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jrt2hfWnR3TOfcR2BUHUoaiXsV SgD9\ BB492O0 [24] Nan Robertson, a Pulitzer Prize-winning New York Times reporter who wrote a book about female employees' fight for equal treatment at the newspaper, has died. She was 83. Robertson died Tuesday of heart disease at a nursing home in Rockville, said Jane Freundel Levey, her stepdaughter-in-law. The veteran reporter won a 1983 Pulitzer Prize for feature writing for a personal piece — an unsparing account of her sudden encounter with toxic shock syndrome. The article, published in The New York Times Magazine, detailed how the illness led to the amputation of the end joints of all her fingers except for her thumbs. Robertson began working for the Times in 1955, when women were frequently assigned to write about topics such as fashion, shopping and interior decorating. Over more than three decades with the newspaper, she was promoted to the metropolitan staff and then to the Washington bureau, where she covered the first lady and the first family, and then to the paper's bureau in Paris .... After moving to Paris in 1973 and spending more than two years as a correspondent there, Robertson returned to New York to seek treatment for alcoholism, a battle she wrote about in her 1988 book, "Getting Better: Inside Alcoholics Anonymous." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6061. . . . . . . . . . . . What sedative was Bill taking in Big Book page 7 From: Ben Hammond . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/17/2009 6:10:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Howdy: What was the sedative described by Bill W. on p. 7 of the Big Book? "next day found me drinking both gin and sedative" Thanks and God Bless, Ben H, Tulsa Oklahoma - - - - From the moderator: When AA authors from the 1930's and 40's talk about taking sedatives, in the texts from that period which I have read, and they tell what specifically they are taking, it is always either barbiturates or bromide compounds that they mention. That's in the things that I have read. Paraldehyde was also mentioned. That substance "was commonly used to induce sleep in sufferers from delirium tremens" but is no longer used in detoxing alcoholics today. And I don't remember ever reading about alcoholics taking paraldehyde other than when they were being detoxed, so I don't think Bill W. was drinking paraldehyde to calm himself down in the story on page 7. Probably some kind of barbiturate or bromide. But do some of our other AAHistoryLovers know of other substances which might have been prescribed by a physician in the 1930's which also might have been described as a "sedative"? Glenn C., South Bend, Indiana IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6062. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: the 24 Hour book and spirituality vs. religion From: Rich Foss . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/20/2009 9:33:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII It is interesting to note that the first prayer in the 24 hour book is a Sanskrit proverb. Does that suggest that it is a translation of a Hindu prayer? - - - - From the moderator -- that passage reads: Look to this day, For it is life, The very life of life. In its brief course lie all The realities and verities of existence, The bliss of growth, The splendor of action, The glory of power -- For yesterday is but a dream, And tomorrow is only a vision, But today, well lived, Makes every yesterday a dream of happiness And every tomorrow a vision of hope. Look well, therefore, to this day. Sanskrit proverb by Kalidasa, Indian poet and playwright, fourth century A.D. - - - - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C4%81lid%C4%81sa Kalidasa [his name means "servant of the goddess Kali"] was a renowned Classical Sanskrit writer, widely regarded as the greatest poet and dramatist in the Sanskrit language. His floruit cannot be dated with precision, but most likely falls within the Gupta period, probably in the 4th or 5th century or 6th century. His place in Sanskrit literature is akin to that of Shakespeare in English. His plays and poetry are primarily based on Hindu mythology and philosophy. See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kali on the figure of the great Hindu goddess Kali. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6063. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: What sedative was Bill taking in Big Book page 7 From: buckjohnson41686 . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/20/2009 3:54:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Probably a barbiturate, or a bromide. (Barbital 1904, Phenobarbital 1912) by the 1930's 'barbs'would have been in common use with a variety available. Chloral hydrate was widely in use by 1900. (A liquid.) I doubt Bill was using chloral hydrate. I doubt that it was paraldehye, an odiferous liquid, primarily used to detox alcoholics. Possibly morphine or some other opiate. Beside bromides this could also be any combination that a physician might prescribe, most drugs were compounded by pharmacists; so it could also include belladonna alkaloids, or opiates. Belladonna-opium combinations and Belladonna/phenobarb (or other barb) were commonly used for almost any abdominal/gut symptoms. I recall seeing an AA VHS tape where Bill says that prior to Dr Bob going to the hospital to do surgery, "I gave him a beer and a goofball" - - - - From: "Edward" (elg3_79 at yahoo.com) It could have been chloral hydrate that was being used as the prescription for Bill. Details at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloral_hydrate A solution of chloral hydrate is referred to as "knockout drops" when it is secretly added to an alcoholic beverage to produce a "Mickey Finn," which is given to the victim in order to produce unconsciousness. Y'all's in service Ted G. - - - - From: pvttimt@aol.com (pvttimt at aol.com) Opiates have been prescribed for many, many years ... that could have been a possibility. - - - - From: "Ben Humphreys" (blhump272 at sctv.coop) I can remember when paraldehyde was used in hospital detoxification. It would go right through the bottom of a styrofoam cup. Just ate it up so it was given in a plastic cup. I remember watching a sponsee taking his medicine and he said, "It tastes bad but doesn't make you highiiiii ...." Took the starch right out of him! Lord it smelled bad. That was in the late 70's. Ben H., Gate City, Virginia IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6064. . . . . . . . . . . . The Great Reality in the Big Book pp. 55 and 161 From: Bernadette MacLeod . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/19/2009 2:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII What does the phrase "the Great Reality" on pp. 55 and 161 of the Big Book refer to, and what is its origin? Bernadette M. King City Group Ontario, Canada IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6065. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: What sedative was Bill taking in Big Book page 7 From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/18/2009 7:43:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII As a pharmacist in the fellowship,I think we should all be aware that the biggest sedative prescribed by physicians was Ethyl Alcohol. The following can explain to the layman some of the history of alcohol as a sedative and the rise of short acting, medium acting, and long acting sedative hypnotics. Yours in Service, Shakey Mike Gwirtz Going to Macon, Georgia next year for the 14th NAW (National Archives Workshop). Hope to see you there. - - - - The Consumers Union Report on Licit and Illicit Drugs by Edward M. Brecher and the Editors of Consumer Reports Magazine, 1972 PART IV Alcohol, the Barbiturates, the Tranquilizers, and Other Sedatives and Hypnotics Though traditionally classified as a depressant, alcohol actually has a wide spectrum of apparently contradictory effects. At various dose levels and phases of the drinking cycle it may depress or stimulate, tranquilize or agitate. It may release inhibitions or put the drinker to sleep. Medically, alcohol was long prescribed as a tonic, a sedative, and a soporific, but its traditional role in medicine has now been taken over largely by the barbiturates, minor tranquilizers, and other sedatives and hypnotics. Among the barbiturates are the "long-acting," such as phenobarbital, and the "short-acting," such as pentobarbital (Nembutal) and secobarbital (Seconal). As shown in Chapter 29, alcohol is very similar in effect to a short-acting barbiturate. ("Short-acting" means both that the drug's effects set in sooner and more abruptly and that they wear off sooner.) The minor tranquilizers resemble the barbiturates in some respects and differ in others (see below); included among them are meprobamate (Miltown, Equanil), chlordiazepoxide (Librium), and diazepam (Valium). Also classified as sedatives and hypnotics are glutethimide (Doriden), ethchlorvynol (Placidyl), chloral hydrate, and others. As used nonmedically in our society, alcohol is taken occasionally and in moderation with few undesirable side effects by the great majority of users. Its potential for harm, howeverâ“â“ mental and physicalâ“â“ makes alcohol one of the most dangerous of all drugs to those who get drunk, to those who become addicted, and to those about them. An estimated 10 to 12 percent of all drinkers are alcoholics or "problem drinkers"; the number of alcoholics â“â“ that is, alcohol addictsâ“â“ is estimated to total five million people. As with other addicting drugs, no user can foresee whether or when he will become addicted to alcohol. Moderate use of long-acting barbiturates appears to carry less risk of addiction than the use of short-acting barbiturates or alcohol. The minor tranquilizers and some of the other sedatives and hypnotics also carry the hazard of addiction to lesser degrees. The use of virtually all of these drugs can produce symptoms like those of alcohol drunkennessâ“â“ nausea, incoordination, loss of inhibitions, violence, etc. The best-known withdrawal symptom is the "hangover," experienced at times by even moderate users of these drugs; convulsions, delirium tremens, and even death are among the risks shared by addicts following abrupt withdrawal. Chapter 28. The barbiturates for sleep and for sedation Two of the most common afflictions for which human beings through the centuries have sought relief in drugs are anxiety and insomnia. During much of the nineteenth century, the opiates were prescribed to relieve those symptoms; but they were addicting. The bromide salts were also often used to induce sleep or "calm the nerves"; but they gradually lost popularity because of the risk of chronic bromide poisoning. Chloral hydrate and paraldehyde, both quite effective as sedatives and hypnotics (sleeping potions), have an objectionable taste and smell. Thus many conservative physicians, even after the turn of the century, continued to prescribe alcohol as the sedative and hypnotic of choice-a glass of wine in midmorning and midafternoon, perhaps, plus the traditional nightcap to induce sleep. But a growing number of patients in need of sedatives and hypnotics were also ardent "teetotalers," who had "taken the pledge" of total abstinence from intoxicating beverages. Other patients didn't like the taste or smell of alcohol. Still others tended to take more alcohol than prescribed. Hence, despite the wide range of sedatives and hypnotics available at the end of the nineteenth century, the search for a better drug continued. It was in the course of this search that two German scientists, von Mering and Fischer, synthesized a new chemical called barbital, a derivative of barbituric acid. Tested on both animals and humans, barbital seemed to have precisely the desired qualities. When a patient complaining of insomnia, for example, was given a capsule containing a moderate dose of barbital and told that it would facilitate sleep, the patient promptly fell asleep. Nervous, anxious patients given much smaller doses for daytime use and told the drug would "calm their nerves" found that it did. In 1903 barbital was introduced into general medical practice under the trade name Veronaland soon became very popular. A second barbituric acid derivative, phenobarbital, was introduced under the trade name Luminal in 1912. More than 2,500 other barbiturates were subsequently synthesized, and some fifty of them were accepted for medical useâ“â“ as sedatives, as sleeping pills, and for other purposes. Long-acting barbiturates were developed for daytime sedation; short-acting barbiturates followed for prompt sedation and for inducing sleep without delay. _1_ (http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/library/studies/cu/cu28.htm#Anchor-Chap ter-\ 4957 [25] 5) Combinations were also introducedâ“â“ a short-acting barbiturate to put you to sleep combined with a long-acting one to keep you asleep. These new drugs seemed to have notable advantages over their predecessors, including alcohol. They were odorless and tasteless. Precise quantities could be dispensed in capsule or tablet form. When barbiturates were taken as directed, in small doses for sedation and moderate doses for sleep, few side effects were noted. True, the short-acting barbiturates carried some risk of addiction, but there was no evidence that the long-acting barbiturates were addicting. After taking small daily doses for weeks or even months, a patient could discontinue without discomfort-much as most people can take a daily alcohol cocktail or nightcap without becoming addicted. It was hardly surprising, therefore, that the barbiturates became so popular among physicians and patients alike. By the end of the 1930s an estimated billion grains were being taken each year in the United States alone. _2_ (http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/library/studies/cu/cu28.htm#Anchor-Chap ter-\ 49575 [26]) The barbiturates remain exceedingly useful today. "Phenobarbital is one of our mainstays in the treatment of epilepsy and is almost irreplaceable for this purpose," a professor of internal medicine wrote in 1971. "Phenobarbital and . . . Librium [chlordiazepoxide, a tranquilizer] in small doses are extremely valuable in the management of high blood pressure, peptic ulcer, and anxiety. The majority of people who are given these drugs (it must be nearly 99.9 percent) never develop any dependence on them, so that in a relative sense they are quite safe." * _4_ (http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/library/studies/cu/cu28.htm#Anchor-Chap ter-\ 49575 [26]) Short-acting barbiturates, such as secobarbital and pentobarbital, he added, are another matter. * Dr. Jerome H. Jaffe wrote (1970): "It has been found that 0.2 grams of pentobarbital [a short-acting barbiturates] per day can be ingested over many months without the development of any tolerance or physical dependence." _3_ (http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/library/studies/cu/cu28.htm#Anchor-Chap ter-\ 49575 [26]) Footnotes Chapter 28 1. Seth K. Sharpless, in Goodman and Gilman, 4th ed. (1970), p. 98. 2. W. E. Hambourger, "A Study of the Promiscuous Use of the Barbiturates," JAMA, 108 (April 8, 1937): 1343. 3. Jerome H. Jaffe, in Goodman and Gilman, 4th ed. (1970), p. 290. 4. Harris Isbell, personal communication, February 26, 1971. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6066. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Holding hands during the Lord''s Prayer From: oldsmokef . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/19/2009 11:58:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This was passed on to me years ago: "We hold hands so that nobody will steal our wallet" Some groups are rougher than others. Mike K. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6067. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The Great Reality in the Big Book pp. 55 and 161 From: John Barton . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/21/2009 7:41:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The Divine Companion by James Allen http://www.jamesallenlibrary.com/the-divine-companion-instruction-concerning -the\ -great-reality.html [27] And thine eyes shall be opened to the glory of the Great Reality. What, then, is the Great Reality? The Great Reality is a stainless heart, An enlightened understanding, A soul whose perfect peace is not disturbed. By the practice of righteousness only can the Great Reality be known; He alone can perceive it who controls himself; He alone can enter it who purifies himself; He alone can abide therein who is free from all sin. In the Great Reality all religions and philosophies culminate, They meet here, and then vanish away, For there is no division in the Great Reality, Strife and unrest cannot enter there, And he who comes to it is filled with peace. Thou who wouldst understand the Great Reality; Thou who wouldst enter it, and know its peace; Seek the One behind the many, Seek the Silence behind the noise, Seek Truth behind self; Seek for that which is holy and peace-giving, Which abides, and does not pass away like the morning dew. Wisdom abides; Love abides; Compassion abides; Truth abides; Therefore sacrifice self, For self and all the things of self are perishable, They belong to the unreal! Awake, then, out of thy dreaming! Disperse all thy shadows, Destroy all thine illusions, And thou shalt enter the Great Reality; Filled with peace, thou shalt dwell with the Eternal Harmonies; Filled with bliss, thou shalt sing the everlasting Song, The Song which thrills the spaces and the worlds; Thy Song and mine thus shalt thou sing,-- I have made the acquaintance of the Master of Compassion; I have put on the Garment of the Perfect Law; I have entered the realm of the Great Reality. Wandering is ended, for Rest is accomplished; Pain and sorrow have ceased, for Peace is entered into; Confusion is dissolved, for Unity is made manifest; Error is vanquished, for Truth is revealed. Blessed is he who has resolved to abandon self: Blessed is he who is pure; Blessed is he who has destroyed all his illusions; He has found the Great Reality at last. The universe is glad, for again the Master is revealed; The universe is glad, for again the Law of Good is expounded; The universe is glad, for again the Great Reality is comprehended. - - - - --- On Mon, 10/19/09, Bernadette MacLeod wrote: What does the phrase "the Great Reality" on pp. 55 and 161 of the Big Book refer to, and what is its origin? Bernadette M. King City Group Ontario, Canada IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6068. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The Great Reality in the Big Book pp. 55 and 161 From: Charlie Parker . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/22/2009 11:44:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Do we know when James Allen's The Divine Companion was written? Charlie Parker Austin, Texas Toll free 877-223-6387 - - - - From the moderator GC: See http://james-allen.in1woord.nl/ JAMES ALLEN (1864-1912) ______________________________ The Divine Companion was published in 1919. ______________________________ As a Man Thinketh was published earlier, in 1902. "Allen’s best known book. If you’re new to his work, you probably want to read this one first." Spanish translation: Como el Hombre Piensa (2003), traducido por Claudio Lincol. See also http://hindsfoot.org/kml3rc1.html Mel B., Three Recovery Classics: As a Man Thinketh (by James Allen), The Greatest Thing in the World (by Henry Drummond), An Instrument of Peace (the St. Francis Prayer), September 2004. James Allen's As a Man Thinketh appears in the list of recommended readings for newcomers to A.A. given at the end of the original edition of A Manual for Alcoholics Anonymous (THE AKRON MANUAL), as it was published by the Akron group in late 1939 or early 1940, with Dr. Bob's approval we must assume, so that these newcomers might better understand the spiritual aspects of the program. ______________________________ See also: http://newthoughtlibrary.com/allenJames/bio_allenJ.htm ______________________________ -----Original Message----- John Barton, Wednesday, October 21, 2009 Re: The Great Reality in the Big Book pp. 55 and 161 The Divine Companion by James Allen http://www.jamesallenlibrary.com/the-divine-companion-instruction-concerning -the\ -great-reality.html [27] And thine eyes shall be opened to the glory of the Great Reality. What, then, is the Great Reality? The Great Reality is a stainless heart, An enlightened understanding, A soul whose perfect peace is not disturbed. By the practice of righteousness only can the Great Reality be known; He alone can perceive it who controls himself; He alone can enter it who purifies himself; He alone can abide therein who is free from all sin. In the Great Reality all religions and philosophies culminate, They meet here, and then vanish away, For there is no division in the Great Reality, Strife and unrest cannot enter there, And he who comes to it is filled with peace. Thou who wouldst understand the Great Reality; Thou who wouldst enter it, and know its peace; Seek the One behind the many, Seek the Silence behind the noise, Seek Truth behind self; Seek for that which is holy and peace-giving, Which abides, and does not pass away like the morning dew. Wisdom abides; Love abides; Compassion abides; Truth abides; Therefore sacrifice self, For self and all the things of self are perishable, They belong to the unreal! Awake, then, out of thy dreaming! Disperse all thy shadows, Destroy all thine illusions, And thou shalt enter the Great Reality; Filled with peace, thou shalt dwell with the Eternal Harmonies; Filled with bliss, thou shalt sing the everlasting Song, The Song which thrills the spaces and the worlds; Thy Song and mine thus shalt thou sing,-- I have made the acquaintance of the Master of Compassion; I have put on the Garment of the Perfect Law; I have entered the realm of the Great Reality. Wandering is ended, for Rest is accomplished; Pain and sorrow have ceased, for Peace is entered into; Confusion is dissolved, for Unity is made manifest; Error is vanquished, for Truth is revealed. Blessed is he who has resolved to abandon self: Blessed is he who is pure; Blessed is he who has destroyed all his illusions; He has found the Great Reality at last. The universe is glad, for again the Master is revealed; The universe is glad, for again the Law of Good is expounded; The universe is glad, for again the Great Reality is comprehended. - - - - --- On Mon, 10/19/09, Bernadette MacLeod wrote: What does the phrase "the Great Reality" on pp. 55 and 161 of the Big Book refer to, and what is its origin? Bernadette M. King City Group Ontario, Canada IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6069. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: What sedative was Bill taking in Big Book page 7 From: James Bliss . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/22/2009 7:49:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII One substance which had been very popular and could potentially have been deemed to be a sedative at the turn of the century was Laudanum, a strong mixture of Opium and Morphine. I do not know what the medical community considered laudanum at the beginning of the century, but it had been very popular for many years up to the middle of the 20th century for a wide variety of 'ailments' and was used/abused by many people throughout its history. Granted, some restrictions were put in place in 1914, but it was still widely prescribed through the middle of the century for a wide variety of illnesses. My wife remembers being given this in the 60s. It was not strictly regulated until 1970. Jim IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6070. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The Great Reality in the Big Book pp. 55 and 161 From: John Schram . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/22/2009 6:01:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII World Cat shows a publication date of 1968. No reference to an earlier publication. John Schram Samuel Lasenby Bookseller - - - - John is here responding to Message 6068, which said: See http://james-allen.in1woord.nl/ JAMES ALLEN (1864-1912) His little piece the Divine Companion was published in 1919 (i.e. posthumously). - - - - Glenn C., South Bend IN, responding to John's 1968 date: Hmmm. If you google for "James Allen" "Great Reality" all of the online sources give its original date of publication as 1919. When looking in catalogs, remember that it is just a short piece, not a book. It is only 639 words, i.e., two typed pages long. It seems to have been included in a volume called "The Divine Companion" which was published in 1919: James Allen, The Divine Companion, Part III. The Divine Messages, Instruction, concerning The Great Reality See http://james-allen.in1woord.nl/ http://james-allen.in1woord.nl/?text=the-divine-companion http://james-allen.in1woord.nl/?text=the-divine-companion#p3c12 Does anybody else have any further bibliographical information about this piece? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6071. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The Great Reality in the Big Book pp. 55 and 161 From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/23/2009 6:45:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "We found the Great Reality deep down within us. In the last analysis it is only there that He (sic) may be found." (Big Book, page 55) Cf: "With few exceptions our members find that they have tapped an unsuspected inner resource ... our more religious members call it 'God-consciousness.'" (Big Book, Spiritual Experience) James Allen is his own words: "I looked around upon the world and saw that it was shadowed by sorrow and scorched by the fierce lines of suffering. And I looked for the cause. I looked around, but I could not find it. I looked in books, but I could not find it. I looked within, and found there both the cause and the self-made nature of that cause. I looked again, and deeper, and found the remedy. I found one Law, the Law of Love; one Life, the life of adjustment to that Law; one Truth, the Truth of a conquered mind and a quiet and obedient heart..." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6072. . . . . . . . . . . . Are you confusing laudanum with paregoric? From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/23/2009 11:56:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Paregoric, or _camphorated_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camphor) _tincture_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tincture) of _opium_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium) , also known as tinctura opii camphorata, is a _medication_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medication) known for its _antidiarrheal_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antidiarrheal) , _antitussive_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antitussive) , and _analgesic_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analgesic) properties. It was a household remedy in the 18th and 19th centuries, when it was widely used to calm fretful children. In the 20th century its use declined as governments regulated it. Until very recently in the U.S., paregoric was a _Schedule V_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schedule_V) drug, and was available _over-the-counter_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Over-the-counter) in pharmacies in several states by simply signing a register/logbook. Today, paregoric can still be found in the _pharmacopeia_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Pharmacopeia) , but it has been re-regulated as a _Schedule III_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schedule_III) drug under the _Controlled Substances Act_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controlled_Substances_Act) .) The drug is available now only by medical prescription. The principal active ingredient is powdered _opium_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium) (containing the equivalent of 0.4 mg/mL of _morphine_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morphine) ). Other ingredients are _benzoic acid_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzoic_acid) , _camphor_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camphor) , _glycerin_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glycerin) , _anise oil_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anise_oil) and _purified water_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purified_water) . The main effect of this preparation is to increase the muscular tone of the intestine, and also to inhibit normal _peristalsis_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peristalsis) . Its main medicinal use is to control _fulminant_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulminant) _diarrhea_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diarrhea) . It is also an _antitussive_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antitussive) (cough suppressant). Problems with its use include _opiate dependency_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opiate_dependency) and analgesia which can mask symptoms of diseases that need treatment. Paregoric is sometimes confused with _laudanum_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laudanum) , because their chemical names are similar: camphorated tincture of opium (paregoric) vs. tincture of opium (laudanum). However, laudanum contains 10 milligrams of morphine per milliliter, 25 times more than paregoric. Confusion between the two drugs has led to overdose and deaths in several patients. Thus the term "paregoric" should be used instead of "camphorated opium tincture," since the latter may be confused with laudanum. Paregoric was available 'over-the-counter' on a signature basis in the United States until the Controlled Substance Act classed it as a Schedule III Narcotic in 1973. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Paregoric.jpeg) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Paregoric.jpeg) Bottle of Paregoric with Synonyms YIS, Shakey Mike - - - - Mike, The problem is that paregoric is used for diarrhea and for coughs. But I am very dubious about it being prescribed as a "sedative" for somebody who was acutely suicidal. Bill wasn't suffering from either diarrhea or a bad cough, as far as we know, but he does say that he was acutely suicidal, and from other things said in his story, he was probably at the stage where he developed the shakes whenever he tried to stop drinking. Paregoric wouldn't have been either strong enough, or an appropriate medication, for that. Seems to me, anyway. Glenn IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6073. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: What sedative was Bill taking in Big Book page 7 From: John Barton . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/23/2009 6:03:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The sedative sure appears to be liquid based on Bill's description in the Original Manuscript. The operative word is "drinking." "A doctor came with a heavy sedative. Next day found me drinking both gin and sedative. This combination soon landed me on the rocks." God Bless IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6074. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: What sedative was Bill taking in Big Book page 7 From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/24/2009 8:01:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Shakey1aa@... wrote: > > As a pharmacist in the fellowship > > Yours in Service, > Shakey Mike Gwirtz > - - - - As a pharmacist, Mike, do you think there is any clue in the Bill's recollection of "drinking" the sedative? From what I've read, bromides were often dispensed as powders made up into little one-dose packets by the pharmacist and dissolved in water (the original meaning of "take a powder"). Barbiturates were still on patent and more often dispensed in the form of tablets. OTOH, the long-term toxicity of bromides was known at the time so it seems there would have been a preference for the barbiturates, which were thought to be safe. If Bill had been prescribed a syrup like chloral or a mixture made up by the pharmacist, to say that he was "drinking" it would be a little scary but Bill was not averse to hyperbole. I'm sure Ben meant to say that paraldehyde was given in a glass medicine cup, not plastic. I saw a nurse try to give some to a patient (around 1976) in a plastic medicine cup, and it was an interesting sight. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6075. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: What sedative was Bill taking in Big Book page 7 From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/25/2009 9:44:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII My best guess would be phenobarbital ("Luminal"), first synthesized by Farbenfabriken Bayer around 1902, though secobarbital ("Seconal") was available from 1928 and if thinking of "gin and Seconal" one might easily write "gin and sedative" -- but the preeminent sedative in the early 1930s in the United States was still phenobarbital, so far as I know. (In the later 1930s/early 1940s it was a name as familiar to a child in Northern NJ as "aspirin" or "Cheracol" or "terpin hydrate" or "milk of magnesia" or "cod liver oil" though I was only given cheracol [occasionally] and milk of magnesia and [of course] cod liver oil. And for external application there was iodine and mercurochrome. Apparently btw it is now illegal to sell mercurochrome across state lines because after three quarters of a century of use the FDA decided it was a new drug and required formal testing and approval.) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6076. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: What sedative was Bill taking in Big Book page 7 From: glennccc . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/25/2009 4:38:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Father Ralph Pfau says explicitly in his autobiography that the "sedatives" he was using were barbiturates and bromides. One of the bromide compounds that he tried at one point gave him hallucinations of bright colored lights like Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds, so some of these bromides were pretty powerful stuff. 1928-29 Nembutal http://hindsfoot.org/pflou1.html Nembutal = pentobarbital, a short-acting barbiturate 1938 bromide pills http://hindsfoot.org/pflou2.html Bromide compounds, especially potassium bromide, were frequently used as sedatives in the 19th and early 20th century. In some countries, bromide salts remain available in a liquid form at pharmacies, although since the 1950s they have been removed as over-the-counter sedatives in most countries in the West. Potassium bromide in particular was widely used as an anticonvulsant and a sedative in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. 1942 bromides http://hindsfoot.org/pflou2.html 1943 Benzedrine and barbital http://hindsfoot.org/pflou2.html Benzedrine = amphetamine, closely related to other stimulants produced later, such as Dexedrine and methamphetamine ("crystal meth"). While Benzedrine was initially used for medical purposes, as a bronchodilator, early users of the Benzedrine inhaler discovered that it had a euphoric stimulant effect, resulting in it being one of the earliest synthetic stimulants to be widely used for recreational (i.e., non-medical) purposes. Even though this drug was intended for inhalation, many people abused it by cracking the container open and swallowing the paper strip inside, which was covered in Benzedrine. The strips were often rolled into small balls and swallowed, or taken with coffee or alcohol. The drug was often referred to as "bennies" by users and in literature. Barbital = marketed under the brand name Veronal, was the first commercially marketed barbiturate. It was used as a sleeping aid (hypnotic) from 1903 until the mid-1950s. 1943 combining taking barbital with drinking alcohol (very dangerous) http://hindsfoot.org/pflou3.html Glenn C., South Bend, Indiana - - - - --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "J. Lobdell" wrote: > > My best guess would be phenobarbital ("Luminal"), first synthesized by Farbenfabriken Bayer around 1902, though secobarbital ("Seconal") was available from 1928 and if thinking of "gin and Seconal" one might easily write "gin and sedative" -- but the preeminent sedative in the early 1930s in the United States was still phenobarbital, so far as I know. > > (In the later 1930s/early 1940s it was a name as familiar to a child in Northern NJ as "aspirin" or "Cheracol" or "terpin hydrate" or "milk of magnesia" or "cod liver oil" though I was only given cheracol [occasionally] and milk of magnesia and [of course] cod liver oil. And for external application there was iodine and mercurochrome. Apparently btw it is now illegal to sell mercurochrome across state lines because after three quarters of a century of use the FDA decided it was a new drug and required formal testing and approval.) > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6077. . . . . . . . . . . . Archive Collection Display From: john wikelius . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/25/2009 4:43:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII On November 19, 2009 fromm 1-3 PM CST at Level Plains Group, in Level Plains, Alabama. (About three miles east of Enterprise, Alabama, in the southeastern corner of Alabama, about fifteen miles from the Florida state line.) I will have a display of Temperance, Emmanuel Movement, Washingtonian and Prohibition items. Books, newspapers, magazines, artifacts. Coffee will be provided. John Wikelius Enterprise, Alabama (334) 389-3231 Levelplainsaa@hotmail.com IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6078. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The Great Reality in the Big Book pp. 55 and 161 From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/23/2009 7:06:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The Divine Companion Allen described this book as "The story of my soul" and said it should be the last book of his to be read. Published after his death in 1919. http://www.jamesallenlibrary.com/read-online.html - - - - --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "John Schram" wrote: > > World Cat shows a publication date of 1968. > No reference to an earlier publication. > > John Schram Samuel Lasenby Bookseller > > - - - - > > John is here responding to Message 6068, > which said: > > See http://james-allen.in1woord.nl/ > JAMES ALLEN (1864-1912) > His little piece the Divine Companion was > published in 1919 (i.e. posthumously). > > - - - - > > Glenn C., South Bend IN, responding to John's > 1968 date: > > Hmmm. If you google for > > "James Allen" "Great Reality" > > all of the online sources give its original > date of publication as 1919. > > When looking in catalogs, remember that it is > just a short piece, not a book. It is only 639 > words, i.e., two typed pages long. > > It seems to have been included in a volume > called "The Divine Companion" which was published > in 1919: > > James Allen, The Divine Companion, Part III. > The Divine Messages, Instruction, concerning > The Great Reality > > See http://james-allen.in1woord.nl/ > > http://james-allen.in1woord.nl/?text=the-divine-companion > > http://james-allen.in1woord.nl/?text=the-divine-companion#p3c12 > > Does anybody else have any further bibliographical > information about this piece? > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6079. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: What sedative was Bill taking in Big Book page 7 From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/25/2009 5:45:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII It was chloral hydrate (knockout drops, Mickey Finn) From: George C. Bailey (Baileygc23 at aol.com) - - - - http://silkworth.net/grapevine/goof_balls.html "Those 'Goof Balls'" by Bill W. Grapevine, November 1945 "Morphine, codeine, chloral hydrate, Luminal, Seconal, Nembutal, amytal, these and kindred drugs have killed many alcoholics. And I once nearly killed myself with chloral hydrate. Nor is my own observation and experience unique, for many an old-time AA can speak with force and fervor on the subject of 'goof balls.'" "Near the end of my own drinking career I had an alarming experience. Chloral hydrate was prescribed for one of my terrible hangovers. The doctor warned me to stick rigidly to his dosage, but I kept possession of the bottle. While my wife slept quietly beside me, I reached under the mattress, took out the flask, and guzzled the whole business. I had a close shave. Moral: When a doctor gives a legitimate prescription, don't let the alcoholic have the bottle." - - - - http://www.silkworth.net/gsowatch/1938/manu38/manu38.htm "Transcript of Bill Wilson's original story of 1938" Page 21, lines 608-619 608. conditions still worse. Then came a night I when the physi- 609. cal and mental torture was so hellish that I feared I would 610. take a flying leap through my bedroom window sash and all 611. and somehow managed to drag my mattress down to the kitchen 612. floor which was at the ground level. I had stopped drinking 613. a few hours before and hung grimly to my determination that 614. I could have no more that night if it killed me. That very 615. nearly happened, but I was finally rescued by a doctor who 616. prescribed chloral hydrate, a powerful sedative. This reliev- 617. ed me so much that next day found me drinking apparently 618. without the usual penalty, if I took some sedative occasion- 619. ally. In the early spring of 1934 it became evident to IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6080. . . . . . . . . . . . Paul M. from IL From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/28/2009 12:36:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Paul Martin from Illinois (sober over 50 years) died on Sunday 10/25/09. Obituary: Paul W. Martin, age 87, of Bethlehem Woods, LaGrange Park, formerly of Riverside for 42 years. A Veteran U.S. Navy Pilot during WW II, loving brother of Ted (Nancy) Pannkoke; fond uncle of Ted W. (Melissa) Pannkoke and Rick (Kathrin) Pannkoke; dear friend of Judy Giannelli and family of LaGrange for 27 years. Paul had many accomplishments in life as a successful Journalist. He wrote articles for numerous publications including the Chicago Sunday Tribune Magazine, Christian Century, The Grapevine, The Lion, a publication of the Lions Club. He wrote two books on the history of the Lions Clubs, the first We Serve and the second Lions Clubs in the 21st Century. He spoke Spanish fluently and traveled widely , including trips to Mexico and South America and Russia. A Health and Science writer, he hosted his own television show, was a professional wrestler and boxer, and was a true sportsman. He worked in Greenland, Iceland and Alaska in the 1950's, on the Dew Line radar warning system . In the Navy he catapulted, in observation planes, off of battle Ships. He had a great sense of humor and always had a joke. Visitation Wednesday 3 to 9 p.m. at Hallowell & James Funeral Home, 1025 W. 55th St., Countryside. where services will be held on Thursday at 10 a.m. Interment Private. In lieu of flowers, memorials to Riverside Twp. Lions Club, Hadley School for the Blind and St. Thomas Hospice appreciated. Hallowell & James Funeral Home 1025 W. 55th Street Countryside, IL 60525 Phone: 708-352-6500 Fax: 708-352-6528 Published in Chicago Tribune on October 27, 2009. http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/chicagotribune/obituary.aspx?n=paul-w-marti n&pid=135069949 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6081. . . . . . . . . . . . The Broad Highway on page 55 of the Big Book From: MICHAEL DONNELLY . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/27/2009 5:36:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Where does the phrase The Broad Highway on page 55 of the Big Book come from? If anyone can give me a reference on this one, I would really appreciate it. Thanks and God Bless! Michael D. Sioux Falls, South Dakota - - - - IN ITS CONTEXT ON PAGE 55 (The phrase "the Broad Highway" is in the third paragraph, in the second sentence): Actually we were fooling ourselves, for deep down in every man, woman, and child, is the fundamental idea of God. It may be obscured by calamity, by pomp, by worship of other things, but in some form or other it is there. For faith in a Power greater than ourselves, and miraculous demonstrations of that power in human lives, are facts as old as man himself. We finally saw that faith in some kind of God was a part of our make-up, just as much as the feeling we have for a friend. Sometimes we had to search fear- lessly, but He was there. He was as much a fact as we were. We found the Great Reality deep down within us. In the last analysis it is only there that He may be found. It was so with us. We can only clear the ground a bit. If our testi- mony helps sweep away prejudice, enables you to think honestly, encourages you to search diligently within yourself, then, if you wish, you can join us on the Broad Highway. With this attitude you cannot fail. The consciousness of your belief is sure to come to you. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6082. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Are you confusing laudanum with paregoric? From: James Bliss . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/25/2009 8:07:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII > Paregoric wouldn't have been either strong enough, > or an appropriate medication, for that. I was talking about Laudanum. It was liquid as well and commonly used/abused as a drug, which paregoric is not of sufficient strength to easily accomplish. Jim IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6083. . . . . . . . . . . . A question about the 1st AA pamphlet From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/29/2009 8:40:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I just noticed a difference in 2 AA pamphlets as I de-acidified, removed staples and re-sewn them. Both are 1944 pamphlets and the first one I have (which was distributed by the Harrisburg group of AA group stamp on it stamped on front cover) says "published by the Alcoholic Foundation Inc. PO Box 459 (Grand Central Annex) New York 17 NY. The other pamphlet has no group stamp on it but above the information above it says "An AA Publication.." Both have exactly the same information inside there 29 pages. Does anyone know the reason for the addition or deletion of "An AA Publication" in the pamphlet. Both now rest in a "Philly File", for those of you who attended the NAW in CA. I'm hoping that some of you may know the reason for the change. Thank You, Shakey Mike Gwirtz Phila, PA USA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6084. . . . . . . . . . . . Braille version of As Bill Sees It From: Mae H. . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/30/2009 9:38:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The first World Services approved Braille copy of "As Bill Sees It" was transcribed in September, 2009. If anyone wants more info, I'll be glad to provide it. E-mail me at (maehusk2006 at yahoo.com) Mae H. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6085. . . . . . . . . . . . Article by Bill Wilson about Mature Love From: doci333 . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/31/2009 2:19:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I am looking for an article written by Bill Wilson entitled "Mature Love." I have been told that it was about relationships. Looking for info and source please. AA Love and Hugs, Dave IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6086. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Paul M. from IL From: khemex@comcast.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/30/2009 6:12:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII As a matter of fact, as of this past August 15th Paul Martin celebrated 62 years of continuous sobriety in AA. ----- Original Message No. 6080 ----- From: "Bill Lash" http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/6080 Paul Martin from Illinois (sober over 50 years) died on Sunday 10/25/09. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6087. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The Broad Highway on page 55 of the Big Book From: Texoma Coalition . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/31/2009 7:49:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi, What I understand this term to mean is that A.A. is an all-encompassing fellowship where prople of all different kinds of beliefs gather to deal with the problem of alcoholism. Bill is throwing out a term that appears, at least a first glance, to be a contradiction of what Christ is quoted as saying in the Bible regarding the gate and way to life being narrow while the gate and way to destruction is broad. But that's not what Bill is implying here. What he is saying is that the road to a life of recovery is indeed broad enough for us all to travel it regardless of what kind of title we might confer on God as we understand Him. >>> SERMON ON THE MOUNT (Matthew 7:13-14) >>> (King James Version) >>> "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is >>> the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth >>> to destruction, and many there be which go >>> in thereat: because strait is the gate, and >>> narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, >>> and few there be that find it." >>> >>> "strait" = (archaic) narrow, tight, >>> constricted, strict >>> BIG BOOK PAGE 55: >>> "... deep down in every man, woman, and child, >>> is the fundamental idea of God .... We found >>> the Great Reality deep down within us. .... >>> If our testimony ... encourages you to search >>> diligently within yourself, then, if you wish, >>> you can join us on the Broad Highway." In other words, we're all engulfed in the same problem, but how we work out a solution through working the steps is not so narrowed down that we can't travel the broad road to recovery together in spite of our differing understanding of a Higher Power. The 12 steps are configured in such a way that they lead us to different levels of spiritual progress as we work them to the best of our ability. A.A. doesn't claim to provide a path to perfection. We strive for spiritual progress rather than perfection. And when we reach Step 11, we will have advanced far enough down the broad highway to spiritual progress that we will make a practice of improving our conscious contact with God as we understand Him. In other words, there's plenty of room for everybody in A.A., provided of course that they have a desire to stay sobler. So when you think about it, you can see that A.A.'s path to recovery as outlined in the Big Book is without a doubt a Broad Highway in every sense. No one is excluded; all are welcomed and afforded the opportunity to grow along spiritual lines regardless of what their personal concept of a Higher Power might happen to be. Hope that answers your question, and please note that I'm only voicing my presonal understanding of the term you asked about. I'm not trying to preach. Sincerely, Tom H. Recovering Alcoholic DOS 12-31-1979 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6088. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The Broad Highway on page 55 of the Big Book From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/2/2009 1:10:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Notice the usage in capital letters in both instances (the big book and Farnol's novel) The Broad Highway, by Jeffery Farnol (1910) "As this life is a Broad Highway along which we must all of us pass whether we will or no; as it is a thoroughfare sometimes very hard and cruel in the going, and beset by many hardships, sometimes desolate and hatefully monotonous, so, also, must its aspect, sooner or later, change for the better, and, the stony track overpassed, the choking heat and dust left behind, we may reach some green, refreshing haven shady with trees, and full of the cool, sweet sound of running waters. Then who shall blame us if we pause unduly in this grateful shade, and, lying upon our backs a while, gaze up through the swaying green of trees to the infinite blue beyond, ere we journey on once more, as soon we must, to front whatsoever of good or evil lies waiting for us in the hazy distance." Bill Wilson was of course an avid reader. Regards --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, MICHAEL DONNELLY wrote: > > Where does the phrase The Broad Highway on page > 55 of the Big Book come from? > > If anyone can give me a reference on this one, > I would really appreciate it. > > Thanks and God Bless! > > Michael D. > Sioux Falls, South Dakota > > - - - - > > IN ITS CONTEXT ON PAGE 55 > (The phrase "the Broad Highway" is in the > third paragraph, in the second sentence): > > Actually we were fooling ourselves, for deep down > in every man, woman, and child, is the fundamental > idea of God. It may be obscured by calamity, by > pomp, by worship of other things, but in some form > or other it is there. For faith in a Power greater than > ourselves, and miraculous demonstrations of that > power in human lives, are facts as old as man himself. > > We finally saw that faith in some kind of God was > a part of our make-up, just as much as the feeling we > have for a friend. Sometimes we had to search fear- > lessly, but He was there. He was as much a fact as > we were. We found the Great Reality deep down > within us. In the last analysis it is only there that He > may be found. It was so with us. > > We can only clear the ground a bit. If our testi- > mony helps sweep away prejudice, enables you to > think honestly, encourages you to search diligently > within yourself, then, if you wish, you can join us on > the Broad Highway. With this attitude you cannot > fail. The consciousness of your belief is sure to come > to you. > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6089. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Article by Bill Wilson about Mature Love From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/3/2009 2:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII As Bill Sees It 330 "To Grow Up" Those adolescent urges that so many of us have for complete approval, utter security, and perfect romance -- urges quite appropriate to age seventeen -- prove to be an impossible way of life at forty-seven or fifty-seven. Since A.A. began, I've taken huge wallops in all these areas because of my failure to grow up, emotionally and spiritually. << << << >> >> >> As we grow spiritually, we find that our old attitudes toward our instinctual drives need to undergo drastic revisions. Our demands for emotional security and wealth, for personal prestige and power all have to be tempered and redirected. We learn that the full satisfaction of these demands cannot be the sole end and aim of our lives. We cannot place the cart before the horse, or we shall be pulled backward into disillusionment. But when we are willing to place spiritual growth first -- then and only then do we have a real chance to grow in healthy awareness and mature love. ____________________ The second part is based on a passage on page 114 in the Twelve and Twelve, but Bill made a lot of verbal modifications. In particular, the Twelve and Twelve has that last sentence as "But when we are willing to place spiritual growth first-- then and only then do we have a real chance." Or in other words, the phrase "mature love" appears only in the version in As Bill Sees It. Glenn C., South Bend, Indiana IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6090. . . . . . . . . . . . Spencer quote From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/3/2009 2:10:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII LD Pierce (eztone at hotmail.com) would like to obtain a copy, if anybody made one, of the article by Michael St. George on the Herbert Spencer quote in the Big Book. ____________________ The problem arose when, in October, the free Geocities web sites were all shut down permanently by Yahoo, whose owners apparently had found that giving away free web sites, even if advertising was placed in them, did not make enough profit to be worthwhile. When this happened, we lost Michael St. George's excellent and thorough article, which was posted on one of those free Geocities web sites: http://www.geocities.com/fitquotation/ ____________________ It was a good long article, which gave all of the background of the quotation attributed to Herbert Spencer in the Big Book. As he demonstrates, it seems to be a modification of something originally said by William Paley in 1794, where the slightly altered version given by the Rev. William H. Poole in 1879 is almost identical to the wording in the Big Book. The mistaken attribution of the quotation to Herbert Spencer seems to have been common however in a number of books written in the 1930's, 40's, and 50's. The mistake shows up for the first time, as far as is now known, in 1931. ____________________ So if anybody downloaded a copy, please contact L. D. Pierce. Thanks! IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6091. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Spencer quote From: James Bliss . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/3/2009 4:33:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have located a copy of the PDF at: http://home.comcast.net/~sierratangogolf/Survival_of_a_Fitting_Quotation.pdf I have downloaded a copy so that I will have it should this ever happen again. Jim - - - - M.J. Johnson (threeeyedtoad at gmail.com) has also kindly sent a copy of Michael StGeorge's article which has now been placed on another publically available site: See top of http://hindsfoot.org/archive2.html which calls up http://hindsfoot.org/stgeorge.pdf Where did the Herbert Spencer quote in the Big Book come from, the one given at the end of Appendix II on Spiritual Experience? Michael StGeorge, in his classic article "The Survival of a Fitting Quotation," shows that it was actually taken not from Herbert Spencer (1820- 1903), but from an earlier author, William Paley (1743-1805). "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Big Book (4th edition) page 568. - - - - LD Pierce tells us that he found this reference: http://tiny.cc/spencercontempt This scholar regards Michael StGeorge's findings as correct: the quote was taken from Paley, not Spencer. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6092. . . . . . . . . . . . Harry Zollars From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/3/2009 11:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: John Barton (jax760 at yahoo.com) "A Close Shave" Big Book 1st Edition page 348 Many web sites and historians have connected Harry Zollars, the Orrville Barber, with Henry J. Zoeller, a Class "B" Trustee who served in the mid 1950s, but this is in fact an error. ______________________________ http://www.a-1associates.com/westbalto/HISTORY_PAGE/Authors.htm Nancy Olson here said that "A Close Shave" was probably written by Henry J Zoeller, but acknowledged that the author's name might have been Harry Zollers, Boelen, or Harry S. ______________________________ Harry D. Zollars b. 1890 d. December 10, 1960 Orrville, Ohio Harry D. Zollars, whose birth year matches our friend Harry's in the Big Book, was from Orrville, Ohio (just outside of Akron). He is listed on the First 226 Members Akron, OH AA Group ( http://www.hindsfoot.org/akrn226.doc ) with an Orrville address -- Orville [sic] Barber Shop -- although the spelling of his name on this list (as well as the names of several others) is incorrect. Source Info: Ancestry.com 1920 United States Federal Census Just Another Layman on The Golden Road of Devotion IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6093. . . . . . . . . . . . Jane Sturdevant From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/3/2009 11:46:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: John Barton (jax760 at yahoo.com) The First Woman in A.A. The first woman to achieve any sober time following the "Life Changing Program" of the Oxford Group was Jane Sturdevant (note 1). Jane (Jennie) has been often been misidentified as "Jane Sturden" (note 2). She began making the weekly trip to Akron and was likely introduced to the First Century Christian Fellowship by Cleveland's Joe Doppler and/or Bob Oviatt. Her story was recalled by Bob Evans in a recorded interview in 1954 which was detailed in Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers (note 3). Jennie was a housewife, married to Orlyn Sturdevant, an engineer for a Cleveland Steel Mill (note 4). Jane Sturdevant is listed as having twelve months of "dry time" as of February of 1938 when The Amos Roster (note 5) was written by Dr. Bob. So according to Dr. Bob, Jane had quite a bit more time in the program than what the author of Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers called just "a few months" of sobriety (note 6). Just Another Layman on The Golden Road of Devotion NOTES: 1. "The Amos Roster" (See Note 5), The Golden Road of Devotion, Appendix I. 2. Cf. "PIONEERS BY DATE OF SOBRIETY" 3. Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers, p. 122 4. Chapter IV, The Golden Road of Devotion 5. "The Amos Roster" is the name given to the handwritten list of members created by Dr. Bob in February of 1938 and provided to Frank Amos. This list was referenced and attached to the February 23, 1938 "NOTES ON AKRON, OHIO SURVEY" by Frank Amos and was provided under cover letter by Willard Richardson to John D. Rockefeller dated February 23, 1938. 6. Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers, p. 122 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6094. . . . . . . . . . . . What was Dr. Bob''s phone number? From: Mike . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/5/2009 2:30:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I recently visited Dr. Bob's house again. During our tour the guide told us to notice the phone number on the old rotary dial phone in the living room. The last four numbers were 1935. Does anyone know if that was really Dr. Bob's phone number?? ~Mike IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6095. . . . . . . . . . . . Off the Walls: Wisdom from the Road of Happy Destiny From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/7/2009 12:59:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "Off the Walls: Wisdom from the Road of Happy Destiny," by Don G. (Temple, Texas), 179 pp., published 2009. Over a twelve-year period, Don carried a notebook with him when he visited Alcoholic Anonymous and other twelve step meetings across the United States and around the world. In this book he has collected over a thousand of the best of the pithy little sayings which he heard at those meetings, sometimes laugh-provoking but always insightful. His book, originally published privately, is now available for reading online at: http://hindsfoot.org/offintro.html http://hindsfoot.org/offwalls.pdf Don G., a retired licensed M.S.W., is a 20-plus year sober member of Alcoholics Anonymous. His articles have appeared in the Grapevine, and he was a presenter at the AA International Convention in Minneapolis in 2000. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6096. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Off the Walls: Wisdom from the Road of Happy Destiny From: Tracy Grenier . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/7/2009 9:22:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII So cool! I have saved a copy for my desktop. Tracy Grenier wordwonktracy@yahoo.com (wordwonktracy at yahoo.com) Word Wonk Editorial Services http://www.wordwonkeditor.com Copyediting, proofreading, developmental editing, ghost writing, web site design - - - - From: bruceken@aol.com (bruceken at aol.com) Thanks a lot Bruce Kennedy San Francisco - - - - Original message no. 6095 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/6095 "Off the Walls: Wisdom from the Road of Happy Destiny," by Don G. (Temple, Texas), 179 pp., published 2009. Over a twelve-year period, Don carried a notebook with him when he visited Alcoholic Anonymous and other twelve step meetings across the United States and around the world. In this book he has collected over a thousand of the best of the pithy little sayings which he heard at those meetings, sometimes laugh-provoking but always insightful. His book, originally published privately, is now available for reading online at: http://hindsfoot.org/offintro.html http://hindsfoot.org/offwalls.pdf Don G., a retired licensed M.S.W., is a 20-plus year sober member of Alcoholics Anonymous. His articles have appeared in the Grapevine, and he was a presenter at the AA International Convention in Minneapolis in 2000. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6097. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: What was Dr. Bob''s phone number? From: Vicky Callaway . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/6/2009 3:14:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The info sent to me says: Dr Bob Was AA's Leading Advocate of Telephone Therapy His Phone Number In 1941 Was "U N 2 4 3 6" - - - - From: Tom Hickcox His number is given as Un-2436 on the list of the First 226 Members of the Akron, OH AA Group http://hindsfoot.org/akrn226b.html http://hindsfoot.org/akrn226.doc Tommy H in Baton Rouge - - - - From: "J. Lobdell" (jlobdell54 at hotmail.com) In the 1943 Akron Directory his office phone is HE-8523 and his home phone is UN-2436. - - - - Also from Shakey1aa@aol.com (Shakey1aa at aol.com) and "Kevin Short" (kshort at oxmicro.com) - - - - Original message no. 6094 from "Mike" (heat_cool2004 at yahoo.com) I recently visited Dr. Bob's house again. During our tour the guide told us to notice the phone number on the old rotary dial phone in the living room. The last four numbers were 1935. Does anyone know if that was really Dr. Bob's phone number?? ~Mike IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6098. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: What was Dr. Bob''s phone number? From: LouPetrosino . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/8/2009 8:30:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have a 1934-1935 Akron directory that lists Dr Bob's office and home information: SMITH ROBERT H [Anne R] physician, practice limited to rectal diseases 810 2d Natl Bldg, Phone HE-8523, hours 2 to 4 pm except Wednesday afternoon, Sunday by appointment h 855 Ardmore ave, Phone UN-2436. Lou IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6099. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Paul M. from IL From: Mike Custer . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/8/2009 12:08:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I received this today. God bless, Mike :) We lost another piece of AA history linking us to the founders. Paul Martin, 87 years old and 62 years sober. His sponsor was Tom Powers who helped Bill Wilson edit and publish the 12x12. Below is an official obituary that was in a local paper and a personal note from Gary B. a long time sober friend of Paul's. Rest in peace Paul, we will carry the torch! - - - - I returned home yesterday from Paul's wake and memorial service. This was the third time I have been privileged to not only be with Paul but many of his sponsees and friends. The first two times I was asked to chair (more like emcee) the celebrations of his 50 years and 60th years of sobriety. I met Paul 36 years ago when he spoke at the Wyatts meeting in Denver . He had been invited to speak there by a fellow known as Big Frank McKibbon. Frank was big and tough and a true Big Book Step Nazi who said that I should come hear Paul. I was surprised that Frank really looked up to anyone so I figured I better go. I left the meeting knowing that I had just met a man who really believed that the 12 Step program of AA was indeed "sufficient" for alcholics and anyone else who might be motivated to go to the lengths we need. 24 years ago I called Paul with my ass hanging out and jam on my face and asked him for help. I had not drank, but I was living a life of infidelity, dishonesty in all my affairs--my wife still says I was depressed during that time. Other than the depression that is a symptom of alcoholism I have no other experience with that. Paul and his group, the LaGrange group, firmly believe and practice repeated trips through the 12 steps. Each time they do that they swap 5th Steps with several other people, and are extremely diligent in making all the amends to remain current. I learned that the repeated process thru the 12 Steps in order relieves alcoholics of the depression, anxiety, fear and all those other things the sober alcoholic contends with. Paul always believed that guilt is the cause of depression. In fact, he was sure that Wilson would not have had his depressions if he would have kept his pecker in his pants. I last spent several hours with Paul this last Spring when he was in Bloomington, Indiana, undergoing a series of heavy radiation. His conversations were always about AA. He said he knew I don't really enjoy speaking on the circuit but asked me to continue to do it when I was asked so I could continue to share my experience with amends. Paul spent the last 3+ months in a retirement center/nursing home. I am told that this past August there was a young man taking a tour of the home with his parents. The parents were thinking of moving there. The lady giving the tour always spoke to each resident as they passed by. She would say "Hi Joe" or "Hi Mary" etc., but when they passed Paul she said "Hi Paul Martin." The group passed by and then the young man returned and asked Paul if he was the guy who knew Bill Wilson. Paul said he was and asked what he could do for the young man. The kid said he was 3 years sober and was having trouble getting along with his parents. Paul said "Do you have your amends list in your pocket?" Paul then showed the kid how to write an inventory, told him to come back when he had it completed (Paul gave him one week). The kid came back, took 5th Steps with Paul and a few of his friends. On September 10th the kid returned to see Paul and said he had made all the amends with his parents and things were getting better. All the years I knew Paul, I never once heard him change his mind about anything regarding the AA program--the Twelve Steps. I asked Matt A., a 50 year sponsee of Paul's if he ever heard Paul change his mind about any part of the program. Matt said he never heard Paul change his mind about a damn thing. Three weeks ago Bryan B took Paul up to Mayo Clinic for some tests. The doctor came into the room after two days of testing and before the doc could say anything Paul asked "How long do I have." The doctor looked down while looking for words when Paul said "I'm glad you didn't look at your watch." I'm sure someone will be telling more about his life. He spoke Spanish fluently.. He interviewed many South American political figures, both winners and losers of revolutions. He was a wonderful god father and friend. The wake and service were truly victory celebrations. Gary - - - - OBITUARY Also given in Message #6080: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/6080 Paul W. Martin, age 87, of Bethlehem Woods, LaGrange Park, formerly of Riverside for 42 years. A Veteran U.S. Navy Pilot during WW II, loving brother of Ted (Nancy) Pannkoke; fond uncle of Ted W. (Melissa) Pannkoke and Rick (Kathrin) Pannkoke; dear friend of Judy Giannelli and family of LaGrange for 27 years. Paul had many accomplishments in life as a successful Journalist. He wrote articles for numerous publications including the Chicago Sunday Tribune Magazine, Christian Century, The Grapevine, The Lion, a publication of the Lions Club. He wrote two books on the history of the Lions Clubs, the first We Serve and the second Lions Clubs in the 21st Century. He spoke Spanish fluently and traveled widely , including trips to Mexico and South America and Russia . A Health and Science writer, he hosted his own television show, was a professional wrestler and boxer, and was a true sportsman. He worked in Greenland , Iceland and Alaska in the 1950's, on the Dew Line radar warning system . In the Navy he catapulted, in observation planes, off of battle Ships. He had a great sense of humor and always had a joke. Visitation Wednesday 3 to 9 p.m. at Hallowell James Funeral Home, 1025 W. 55th St., Countryside, where services will be held on Thursday at 10 a.m. Interment Private. In lieu of flowers, memorials to Riverside Twp. Lions Club, Hadley School for the Blind and St. Thomas Hospice appreciated. Hallowell & James Funeral Home 1025 W. 55th Street Countryside, IL 60525 Phone: 708-352-6500 Fax: 708-352-6528 Published in Chicago Tribune on October 27, 2009. http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/chicagotribune/obituary.aspx?n=paul-w-marti n&pi\ d=135069949 [28] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6100. . . . . . . . . . . . Group prayer for Bill W. In his final year From: DJSimonK . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/10/2009 1:21:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dear History lovers, An older member mentioned reading somewhere about an incident where many AA's gathered together outside the hospital where Bill was being treated for emphysema and prayed for him. He experienced an improvement in his condition and went on to live a further few months. Can anyone corroborate this and direct me to the source? Love in fellowship Simon K Dorking UK IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6101. . . . . . . . . . . . Music in early AA From: mdingle76 . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/9/2009 9:59:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII AAHL Group, I'm a member of a 12 step group that was founded by Tom Powers -- early AA member and Bill Wilson's main editorial consultant. This 12 step group may be the only one of its kind for it holds Sing-along meetings. And we've been doing this for forty-five years now. Anyway, I have learned over the years that in the early days of AA when meetings were held in people's livingrooms that it wasn't unusual for everyone to sing a few songs when the meeting was over. Of course, this makes a lot of sense because many people knew how to play musical instruments back than -- it wasn't as unusual as it is today. Well, I wanted to share with this online group a video clip of Basket Landing — a folk and blugrass group that just happens to be made up of Tom Powers' family members. The group's leader Joan is Tom's daughter and she tells some about her dad's relationship to Bill W. The song "I'm an Alcoholic" was sung by the group at Stepping Stones — the home of Bill and Lois Wilson and is the kind of song sung at AA gatherings. Here's the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lR_lrsnov5Y IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6102. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: What was Dr. Bob''s phone number? From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/9/2009 9:40:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The current phone number at Dr. Bob's House is 330-864-1935. I think you may have mistaken the current phone number now at the house for what it was when he was alive. Just Love, Barefoot Bill - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - From: john madison (jhmdeuce at yahoo.com) What was the "UN" exchange in Akron? University? Unity? etc.? - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -----Original Message----- Original message no. 6094 from "Mike" (heat_cool2004 at yahoo.com) I recently visited Dr. Bob's house again. During our tour the guide told us to notice the phone number on the old rotary dial phone in the living room. The last four numbers were 1935. Does anyone know if that was really Dr. Bob's phone number?? ~Mike IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6103. . . . . . . . . . . . The first AA bulletin From: priscilla_semmens . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/9/2009 8:57:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I read on a date list that in Nov 14 1940, the Alcoholic Foundation published the first AA Bulletin. What was it? Is there a copy available which could be easily obtainable for reading? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6104. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Paul M. from IL From: Jim . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/10/2009 9:51:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Paul M. was Gary B.'s sponsor (the man who wrote the personal note below which talks about Paul's life and work). (Paul was also my great-great grand sponsor.) Paul M.'s first sponsor was Earl Treat ("He Sold Himself Short") who founded A.A. in Chicago. Earl's sponsor was Dr. Bob. --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Custer" wrote: > > I received this today. God bless, Mike :) > > We lost another piece of AA history linking us > to the founders. Paul Martin, 87 years old and > 62 years sober. His sponsor was Tom Powers who > helped Bill Wilson edit and publish the 12x12. > Below is an official obituary that was in a > local paper and a personal note from Gary B. > a long time sober friend of Paul's. > > Rest in peace Paul, we will carry the torch! > > - - - - > > I returned home yesterday from Paul's wake and memorial service. This was the third time I have been privileged to not only be with Paul but many of his sponsees and friends. The first two times I was asked to chair (more like emcee) the celebrations of his 50 years and 60th years of sobriety. > > I met Paul 36 years ago when he spoke at the Wyatts meeting in Denver . He had been invited to speak there by a fellow known as Big Frank McKibbon. Frank was big and tough and a true Big Book Step Nazi who said that I should come hear Paul. I was surprised that Frank really looked up to anyone so I figured I better go. I left the meeting knowing that I had just met a man who really believed that the 12 Step program of AA was indeed "sufficient" for alcholics and anyone else who might be motivated to go to the lengths we need. > > 24 years ago I called Paul with my ass hanging out and jam on my face and asked him for help. I had not drank, but I was living a life of infidelity, dishonesty in all my affairs--my wife still says I was depressed during that time. Other than the depression that is a symptom of alcoholism I have no other experience with that. > > Paul and his group, the LaGrange group, firmly believe and practice repeated trips through the 12 steps. Each time they do that they swap 5th Steps with several other people, and are extremely diligent in making all the amends to remain current. I learned that the repeated process thru the 12 Steps in order relieves alcoholics of the depression, anxiety, fear and all those other things the sober alcoholic contends with. > > Paul always believed that guilt is the cause of depression. In fact, he was sure that Wilson would not have had his depressions if he would have kept his pecker in his pants. > > I last spent several hours with Paul this last Spring when he was in Bloomington, Indiana, undergoing a series of heavy radiation. His conversations were always about AA. He said he knew I don't really enjoy speaking on the circuit but asked me to continue to do it when I was asked so I could continue to share my experience with amends. > > Paul spent the last 3+ months in a retirement center/nursing home. I am told that this past August there was a young man taking a tour of the home with his parents. The parents were thinking of moving there. The lady giving the tour always spoke to each resident as they passed by. She would say "Hi Joe" or "Hi Mary" etc., but when they passed Paul she said "Hi Paul Martin." The group passed by and then the young man returned and asked Paul if he was the guy who knew Bill Wilson. Paul said he was and asked what he could do for the young man. The kid said he was 3 years sober and was having trouble getting along with his parents. Paul said "Do you have your amends list in your pocket?" > > Paul then showed the kid how to write an inventory, told him to come back when he had it completed (Paul gave him one week). The kid came back, took 5th Steps with Paul and a few of his friends. On September 10th the kid returned to see Paul and said he had made all the amends with his parents and things were getting better. > > All the years I knew Paul, I never once heard him change his mind about anything regarding the AA program--the Twelve Steps. I asked Matt A., a 50 year sponsee of Paul's if he ever heard Paul change his mind about any part of the program. Matt said he never heard Paul change his mind about a damn thing. > > Three weeks ago Bryan B took Paul up to Mayo Clinic for some tests. The doctor came into the room after two days of testing and before the doc could say anything Paul asked "How long do I have." The doctor looked down while looking for words when Paul said "I'm glad you didn't look at your watch." > > I'm sure someone will be telling more about his life. He spoke Spanish fluently.. He interviewed many South American political figures, both winners and losers of revolutions. He was a wonderful god father and friend. > > The wake and service were truly victory celebrations. > > Gary IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6105. . . . . . . . . . . . Bishop''s 2010 AA History Calendar From: diazeztone . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/5/2009 6:07:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "The Hands of AA" The 2010 Alcoholics Anonymous History Calendar A source of some good AA historical information: A list of the first AA groups in each of the 50 states. What ICYPAA is. What are AA’s 4 "Founding Moments"? A new book about the Catholic contributions to AA. Why did we leave the Oxford Group? And so on. Here is the page I made: http://aabibliography.com/charlie_bishop_aa_history_calendar.html LD Pierce www.aabibliography.com (eztone at hotmail) - - - - Also see halfway down on http://hindsfoot.org/archives.html (and http://hindsfoot.org/fiftybk.html for the famous 2009 Alcoholics Anonymous History Calendar with Bishop's list of what to the AA historian are in his estimation the Fifty Most Important Books ever published) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6106. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: What was Dr. Bob''s phone number? From: lester gother . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/10/2009 5:49:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Here are Dr Bob's complete phone numbers: Office: Hemlock 8523 Residence: University 2436 This is from Dr. Bob's letterhead dated 8/11/38 Best Regards Lester Gother IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6107. . . . . . . . . . . . In memoriam: Jack M. of the Ed Keating Center From: J. C. . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/9/2009 6:25:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Jack Mulhall Director of The Ed Keating Center in Cleveland, Ohio, 48 yrs Sober. Our friend Jack Mulhall took his journey home to the Lord on Sunday evening, November 8, 2009. May Jack rest in peace and may perpetual light shine upon him. With support from Dennis E. and others Jack was one of the founders of the Keating Center in Cleveland, Ohio, started in October 1998, which has helped literally hundreds of people each day live in sober housing, where they receive the gifts required to maintain sobriety. All at no cost to the recipient. Jack's operating philosophy for the Keating Center: (a) That recovery services should be available to any man or woman who has a genuine determi- nation to overcome their alcoholism or addiction, without regard to their ability to pay for the help they require; and (b) That these services should be provided without the direct assistance of any local, state or federal agency, instead depending on the private support of individuals and organi- zations who believe in communities helping themselves; and (c) Our only deciding question to the man seeking help is "What are you willing to do to become sober and straight?" not "How will you be paying for our services?" Jack would say . . . There are numerous options available to the man or woman with the means to pay for alcohol or drug abuse treatment. For those who have only the determination to become sober, there is the Ed Keating Center. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6108. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Music in early AA From: S Sommers . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/11/2009 10:21:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This is very interesting. Is this an oral tradition of singing only or is there some song book somewhere? Are the songs or tunes original or are they older folk songs or ballads with new or different words attached? I've heard for years that Anne Smith's favorite hymn was Amazing Grace. Do we have any evidence of what some others' favorite songs might have been? Sam Sommers Elkhart, Indiana - - - - From: "mrpetesplace" (peter at aastuff.com) Hey Matt and Group. AA in North Carolina started in a small town 70 years ago named Shelby. Bill Wilson mentions his trip there in the Yale Summer Studies Lecture that was later published. His trip to Shelby was in the early 40's. Either in that lecture (or in another talk where he talks about his visit) I remember that he said they had singing going on. The talk I believe was in 1947. Peter F. in the Carolinas - - - - Original Message #6101 From (mdingle76 at yahoo.com) I'm a member of a 12 step group that was founded by Tom Powers -- early AA member and Bill Wilson's main editorial consultant. This 12 step group may be the only one of its kind for it holds Sing-along meetings. And we've been doing this for forty-five years now. Anyway, I have learned over the years that in the early days of AA when meetings were held in people's livingrooms that it wasn't unusual for everyone to sing a few songs when the meeting was over. Of course, this makes a lot of sense because many people knew how to play musical instruments back than -- it wasn't as unusual as it is today. Well, I wanted to share with this online group a video clip of Basket Landing — a folk and blugrass group that just happens to be made up of Tom Powers' family members. The group's leader Joan is Tom's daughter and she tells some about her dad's relationship to Bill W. The song "I'm an Alcoholic" was sung by the group at Stepping Stones — the home of Bill and Lois Wilson and is the kind of song sung at AA gatherings. Here's the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lR_lrsnov5Y IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6109. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Music in early AA From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/15/2009 2:41:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII So far as I have been able to find out (though I'm still awaiting a letter from Paul K's daughters -- Paul used to play the piano and Bill his fiddle after meetings at 182), the after-meeting songfests were not from a book but from memory, and they were just the ordinary versions of the songs (a century before, on the other hand, the Washingtonians had their own songs to the familiar tunes). Before the OG meetings in MD that Bill and Fitz attended (1936?), Bill used to play the fiddle and Fitz the banjo at Fitz's home: I'm told Bill's favorite (or one of them) was The Battle Hymn of the Republic, and that Fitz was partial to "Old Virginny Never Tire!" -- but that they would collaborate on playing (I don't know about singing) "Greensleeves." Bill was also known to do WW1 songs -- so was Fitz -- and I have indirect/anecdotal evidence that they played and sang "Pack Up Your Troubles in the Old Kit Bag" (which was in any case the theme song for the WOR radio program "Rambling with Gambling" from 1923 until past the time Bill was singing), probably also "How You Gonna Keep 'Em Down on the Farm [After They've Seen Paree]?" IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6110. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The first AA bulletin From: mrpetesplace . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/11/2009 3:46:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I couldn't find a copy online anywhere using the search box on my AAStuff.com site so I just finished posting a pfd file there which has the first four AA Bulletins. I believe if my notes are correct Paul H. sent the file to me originally. Go to http://www.aastuff.com and in the section titled "Information that Interests Us," it is the first listing, simply called "AA Bulletins." http://www.aastuff.com/pdf/AA-Bulletins.pdf It includes, as I said, all of the first 4 bulletins (starting in November 1940) which were sent from "The Alcoholic Foundation" (national headquarters of Alcoholics Anonymous). Thank you to all who assist with sending files or links to useful AA information. Peter Falcone - - - - From: Arthur S (artsheehan at msn.com) Hi Priscilla The "AA Bulletin" was the precursor to the "AA Exchange Bulletin" which was the precursor to "Box 4-5-9." They are historical nuggets. Since we cannot post AAHL messages with attachments, copies have been put online at the bottom of page: http://hindsfoot.org/archive3.html The 11/14/40 Bulletin announced the groups that existed at the time and those that were emerging. http://hindsfoot.org/bullno1.pdf The 1/15/41 Bulletin gave the membership an early alert as to the historic Jack Alexander Saturday Evening Post article. http://hindsfoot.org/bullno2.pdf The 6/20/41 Bulletin announced the discovery of what was later to be called "The Serenity Prayer." http://hindsfoot.org/bullno3.pdf The bulletins were used to keep the groups informed of important events. Cheers Arthur - - - - Original message from "priscilla_semmens" : > > I read on a date list that in Nov 14 1940, the > Alcoholic Foundation published the first AA > Bulletin. > > What was it? Is there a copy available which > could be easily obtainable for reading? > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6111. . . . . . . . . . . . Transcripts, for the hearing impaired, of AA historical audios? From: deafbluiegurl33 . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/14/2009 3:38:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello everyone, Since I am deaf and a member of the anonymous group, I have a special question. I was referred to the free resources in the free stuff section of this site: http://www.silkworth.net/freestuff.html yet all of them are in audio format. I have contacted those who is responsible for this site and was recommended to come here and ask about this. Can any of you please find a way to send me transcripts for all of those listed? Cassie IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6112. . . . . . . . . . . . Re-writing history in the movies From: Al Welch . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/12/2009 9:29:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I see that E-Entertainment and Hallmark are making a new movie about Lois Wilson, naming her as a COFOUNDER of AA. (Winona Ryder is playing Lois in the Toronto made movie.) Alas, this will probably eventually become part of AA history under the heading "Did you hear?" or "I read it somewhere" ! IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6113. . . . . . . . . . . . List of all A.A. groups as of Dec. 31, 1941 From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/16/2009 3:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII List of all the cities with A.A. groups as of Dec. 31, 1941. Very impressive growth, going from one or more established groups in 22 cities in November 1940 to three times that size in only one year: this list shows one or more established groups in 69 cities as of December 1941 (plus groups in two other cities handwritten into the list). Sent to us by A.A. archivist and historian Bruce C. from Muncie, Indiana. See bottom of page http://hindsfoot.org/archive3.html Which links to a copy of the list at http://hindsfoot.org/dec1941.pdf IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6114. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Transcripts, for the hearing impaired, of AA historical audios? From: mrpetesplace . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/15/2009 8:49:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello, I have bad hearing myself.. grew up that way and can sign some. I have a set of VHS Big Book which I was going to use to help learn more signs to help deaf alcoholics as there is none around here or meetings. I'm originally from the Rochester, New York area and there were plenty. If you don't have a set I would love to send this set to you or anyone else who is deaf that needs a copy. I'm sure the Big Book is good enough but I also know some deaf can't read but do sign and would depend on the Big Book signing. You get first chance at it. If not needed then whoever else requests it I'll send to them. My email is: = peter (AT) aastuff.com Peter Falcone in the Carolinas IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6115. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: List of all A.A. groups as of Dec. 31, 1941 From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/17/2009 6:40:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Some may recall my previous posts regarding the first 25 AA groups and the subsequent work by this group to identify the first AA group in each state. In doing my original research I worked to substantiate each of the first 25 groups especially with two primary AA documents. 1. Bills letter to the trustees dated 10/1/1940 2. AA Bulletin # 1 dated 11/14/1940 Both of the above documents listed the cities that had "working groups" at that time as well as groups that were forming and cities with isolated members. They are nearly identical but Bill omitted South Orange from the first list and Camden from the second list. In working with Bill's lists and the plethora of "secondary" sources available I was able to provide a second source of substantiation for all the locations in the two primary references except for two, Jackson & Waunakee, which cast doubt on whether or not there were actually woking groups with the membership numbers Bill claimed (15 & 20 respectively) in the Trustee letter dated 10/1/1940 The notes I was able to find are below. In comparing them to the 1941 group list one can see that "Al C." is Al Cameron the Coffee Shop owner at the Ostego Hotel and "Harry S." is Harry Smith from Madison. Note 1 We had lots of fine members whom I remember with great affection. I have good memories of Bernie W., Roy D., Butch and Jake (a she) C., Silvanus J., Bill H., Charlie S., Ruth W., Frank Mc., Beck U., and many others whose names don't come up on my screen at the moment, although I could remember them with a bit of jogging. We called ourselves Jackson Group #2, although there was not a #1 in an active state. However, there was a group registered in the national AA directory with Stan S. as a contact, but I never knew him and as far as I knew, it wasn't meeting. I would be happy to review any records you have, but I do think you can use December, 1939, as the starting time for AA in Jackson. It may have taken some time to really get off the ground, but I think we have to call Al C., the founder with later backup from Jack D.I hope this is of some help to you. Please call if you have more questions and I'll try to help. All the best, Mel B. Then we heard from Tom B.: Bud S. the electrician told me that Jackson Group #1 folded after they lost their meeting place when their landlord padlocked the hall. The present Jackson Group, official registered in New York as Jackson Group #2, held its first meeting on the first Sunday of September 1945. Where the meeting was held has been forgotten but the date was confirmed by a copy of the minutes of business meetings from 1950, 1951 and 1952 that I got from Bud C. whose late brother-in-law had been group secretary in those years. Barb S. borrowed the notebooks to read over, and lost them all in moving to Texas and then back to Jackson. Tom says that Bud S. also told him that Al C. had a coffee shop in the Otsego Hotel in the early 40's. One night each week, Al closed early so that AA could meet in the coffee shop. Copyright© 2006 The Jackson Group http://www.aa-semi.org/ Note 2 Waunakee Wisconsin – Local A.A. activity, but members attending meetings in Chicago. After an exhaustive search, I found no groups listed in Waunakee, Wisconsin prior to October 1, 1940, however there was indeed mention of AA activity in Waunakee, during this period. Early correspondence reveals that Harry S., of Waunakee, WI, may have been the first individual to contact GSO from this city. Harry's earliest letter dates November 20, 1939 and reads, "I thank you for your letter of the 14th I would be pleased to correspond with your Chicago membership and perhaps would go there to see more of it." In a letter dating July 24, 1940, Harry writes: "My position as Chief Chef for the Mendota State Hospital, Mendota, Wisconsin, (a suburb of Madison Wisconsin) brings me in close contact with all types of alcoholics. A good many of these are more than anxious to stop drinking and are well worth saving, as a matter of fact, I have talked to a number of them and have outlined your procedure…I have had some correspondence with your Miss Coultis of Chicago who has very kindly invited me to attend some of their meetings there…I am eager to start a group in Madison and would so much appreciate any information you might give me which would enable to do so." There are few more letters from Harry in the file. Please note that letters from Harry are all filed with other group correspondence in the "Madison" folder. (Asst. GSO Archivist Michelle M. correspondence with JB in late 2008) These notes do cast doubt in my mind but that is only my conclusion I hope more will be revealed! Lastly,for those who are interested I was able to fully document 34 groups in 29 cities spread out over 14 states and the District of Columbia at the close of 1940. God Bless John B. --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Glenn Chesnut wrote: > > List of all the cities with A.A. groups as of > Dec. 31, 1941. Very impressive growth, going > from one or more established groups in 22 cities > in November 1940 to three times that size in > only one year: this list shows one or more > established groups in 69 cities as of December > 1941 (plus groups in two other cities handwritten > into the list). > > Sent to us by A.A. archivist and historian > Bruce C. from Muncie, Indiana. > > See bottom of page > http://hindsfoot.org/archive3.html > > Which links to a copy of the list at > http://hindsfoot.org/dec1941.pdf > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6116. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Re-writing history in the movies From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/17/2009 7:51:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Al In a July 1949 obituary and Grapevine memorial article paying tribute to Dr Bob's wife Anne, Bill W wrote that she was "quite literally, the mother of our first group, Akron #1 and in the full sense of the word she was one of the founders of AA." Likewise, I think it quite fair and accurate to state that Lois W was, "in the full sense of the word" also one of the founders of AA. I just don't see how the AA Fellowship could have gotten off the ground without both of these remarkable women (plus these days we do not give non-alcoholics anywhere near the tribute they deserve for helping to get AA started - particularly those in medicine and religion). My biggest concern today - reinforced by the most recent books I'm aware of written about Lois and Bill - is the number of historical inaccuracies published based on what seems like shoddy research. There is a weakness emerging in contemporary AA history writings that seems to center on failure to corroborate facts via multiple sourcing, inadequate vetting in editing and over-dependence on anecdotal sources - these are the kind of things that will propagate situations of hearsay being viewed as history. Cheers Arthur IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6117. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re-writing history in the movies From: Doug B. . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/15/2009 6:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Have faith Al...it is based on the book by the same author who wrote "My Name is Bill W" and the book is based on hours of interviews with Lois herself. The book was great...I'm happy that Bill Borchert got the movie made. Doug Barrie www.aahistory.com - - - - On the authors web site, the first sentence in the second paragraph describes Lois Wilson correctly as the co-founder of Al-Anon, not AA: "The movie stars ... Wynona Ryder, as Lois Wilson, THE CO-FOUNDER OF AL-ANON, and ... Barry Pepper as ... Bill Wilson, THE CO-FOUNDER OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS." - - - - From the authors web site: 11-11-09 PRODUCTION OF THE LOIS WILSON MOVIE NOW UNDERWAY The Hallmark Hall of Fame movie, "When Love Is Not Enough: The Lois Wilson Story," began shooting in Toronto, Canada on November 9, 2009. It is scheduled for completion by the middle of December. The movie stars the magnificent young actress, Wynona Ryder, as "Lois Wilson," the co-founder of Al-Anon, and the wonderful young actor, Barry Pepper, as her husband, "Bill Wilson," the co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous. The distinguished director is John Kent Harrison and the Executive Producers are Brent Shields and Peter Duchow. The screenplay was written by William G. Borchert and Camille Thomasson. More than three years in the making, the movie is based on the book, "The Lois Wilson Story: When Love Is Not Enough," written by veteran author William G. Borchert who was a close personal friend of Lois Wilson for more than 15 years before her passing in 1988. Mr. Borchert was nominated for an Emmy for writing the highly acclaimed Hallmark film, "My Name Is Bill W." which starred James Woods and James Garner and was based on the lives of Bill Wilson and Dr. Robert Smith and the founding of Alcoholics Anonymous. Mr. Borchert long felt the story of Al-Anon must also be told and the heroic role Lois played in its founding. So four years ago he wrote her life story. Hallmark Hall of Fame then purchased the film rights to his book and now the movie is becoming a reality. Wynona Ryder, who expressed great eagerness to play the role of Lois, has been nominated for two Academy Awards and has starred in many box office hits. These include "Star Trek," "The Informers," "Edward Scissorhands," "The Age of Innocence," "Little Women," "The Crucible," "Being John Malkovich," "The Last Word," "Beetle Juice," and many others. Audiences have also gotten to know Wynona through her many TV appearances on such shows as Jay Leno, David Letterman, Conan O'Brien, The Charley Rose Show and eight appearances on Saturday Night Live. Barry Pepper is a deeply sensitive actor as he clearly showed in his major roles in "Saving Private Ryan" and "The Green Mile." A six-time nominee and winner of The Golden Globe Award, Barry has starred in many other feature films such as "We Were Soldiers" and "Flags of Our Fathers." He has also starred in major television movies such as "61" where he played New York Yankees home run slugger Roger Maris and in "Lonesome Dove:The Outlaw Years." Like Wynona, audiences have seen him interviewed on many TV shows such as The Late, Late Show with Craig Ferguson and the Rosie O'Donnell Show. The man guiding these marvelous actors through the difficult task of portraying a loving couple battling the scourge of alcoholism is an outstanding director with many awards and credits to his name. John Kent Harrison understands this story from many points of view and considers it a personal privilege to be undertaking this challenge. Last year John directed the moving and gripping Hallmark Hall of Fame drama, "The courageous Heart of Irene Sandler" which won accolades from around the world. He also wrote and directed the TV movie, "Pope John Paul II" and the highly acclaimed movie, "The Sound and the Silence" about Alexander Graham Bell. "When Love Is Not Enough" is scheduled to be shown on the CBS Television Network in late April of 2010, just before Mothers Day. Stay tuned for further news on this important event. http://williamborchert.com/movie.html Doug Barrie www.aahistory.com IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6118. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Re-writing history in the movies From: Lee Carroll, CPA . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/16/2009 12:06:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A I understand it, they are correctly crediting Lois as the Co-founder of Al-Anon, not AA. Please see press release: Winona Ryder 'Enough' for Hallmark Barry Pepper to co-star in 'Lois Wilson Story' By MICHAEL SCHNEIDER Winona Ryder and Barry Pepper have been cast to star in the Hallmark Hall of Fame movie "When Love Is Not Enough: The Lois Wilson Story." Production starts this week in Toronto ; the longform will air later this season on CBS. Movie is based on the true story of Lois Wilson, the co-founder of Al-Anon, and her relationship with alcoholic husband Bill Wilson, one of the founders of Alcoholics Anonymous. The couple enjoyed an upscale lifestyle in the 1920s, but his drinking eventually led to their downfall. Eventually, her husband became sober -- but Lois Wilson still struggled with her own issues surrounding his alcoholism. She eventually helped start Al-Anon in 1951 to assist people whose loved ones battle addiction. E1 Entertainment is producing the movie with Hallmark Hall of Fame Prods. John Morayniss, Ira Pincus and Brent Shields are exec producing, while John Kent Harrison is the director. Telepic is based on the book by William Borchert, who also wrote the script with Camille Thomasson. Ryder's upcoming credits include "The Private Lives of Pippa Lee," while Pepper was seen in "61*" and "Flags of Our Fathers." - - - - From: Shakey1aa@aol.com (Shakey1aa at aol.com) This press release (http://www.thefutoncritic.com/news.aspx?id=20091112cbs03) says that: "This Drama, Based on the Biography by William G. Borchert, Is About the Trials and Ultimate Triumph of the Co-Founder of Al-Anon, Whose Alcoholic Husband Co-Founded AA" I checked online after seeing the previous AAHL post. I don't think Bill B would let them make that mistake. YIS Shakey Mike Gwirtz Phila, PA USA - - - - From: "Laurence Holbrook" (email at LaurenceHolbrook.com) Excerpts from Variety, November 10, 2009 http://www.variety.com/article/VR1118011136.html?categoryid=14&cs=1 Winona Ryder 'Enough' for Hallmark Barry Pepper to co-star in 'Lois Wilson Story' By MICHAEL SCHNEIDER Movie is based on the true story of Lois Wilson, the co-founder of Al-Anon, and her relationship with alcoholic husband Bill Wilson, one of the founders of Alcoholics Anonymous. ... She eventually helped start Al-Anon in 1951 to assist people whose loved ones battle addiction ... Telepic is based on the book by William Borchert, who also wrote the script with Camille Thomasson. A similar news release by CBS published by UPI is here: http://www.upi.com/Entertainment_News/TV/2009/11/12/Ryder-begins-work-on-TV- movi\ e/UPI-31871258069245/ [29] - - - - From: Toto24522@aol.com (Toto24522 at aol.com) http://news-briefs.ew.com/2009/11/11/winona-ryder-to-play-lois-wilson/ "Winona Ryder and Barry Pepper will star in Hallmark Hall of Fame movie When Love Is Not Enough: The Lois Wilson Story, Variety reports. The project starts shooting this week in Toronto and will air later this season on CBS. The story is about Lois Wilson, the co-founder of Al-Anon, and her alcoholic husband Bill Wilson, who founded Alcoholics Anonymous." Also see the article on this in Variety. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6119. . . . . . . . . . . . A.A. and the U.S./Canadian Thanksgiving celebrations From: Richard H . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/21/2009 7:05:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Do you have any references or stories relating to AA & Thanksgiving? Best regards, Richard Humway Area 73 (West Virginia) Archivist - - - - (Thanksgiving is a holiday which is celebrated on the second Monday of October in Canada and on the fourth Thursday of November in the United States.) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6120. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Music in early AA From: Lynn Sawyer . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/17/2009 10:43:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dear fellow HistoryLovers, I have a need/request. I emailed to a friend in Brazil about "music in A.A.," and he speaks Portuguese as his 1st language, and cannot understand the words of the songs, as they are singing too fast!! Are the words published somewhere, that I could connect him with? I'd appreciate whatever you could do. Thanks for bein' there!! :-) - - - - From G.C. the moderator: Lynn is asking about Message 6101 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/6101 which gave a YouTube version of a song they called "I'm an Alcoholic" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lR_lrsnov5Y They added their own chorus to the song: "I know everything there is Folks all say that I'm a whiz I'm an alcoholic." But otherwise it is just an old traditional folksong from the English-speaking world called "I was Born About Ten Thousand Years Ago." The folk song index at http://www.ibiblio.org/folkindex/i03.htm gives thirty different folk versions of the song, collected by John and Alan Lomax, Carl Sandburg, etc. There are all sorts of different versions: African-American http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eN-C7avRiMI Tommy Makem's Irish version from County Mayo (which Fiona Dodd insists is the correct version) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IJ0Zkl0FPk And even a pop version by the late great Elvis Presley http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNfCAzY1U4I You can get the words at various places online (remembering that since it is a folk song, there are a number of different versions -- none of the ones online, for example, exactly match the version I heard in Kentucky as a child): http://maxhunter.missouristate.edu/songinformation.aspx?ID=262 http://lyricsplayground.com/alpha/songs/i/iwasborntenthousandyearsago.shtml http://www.whitetreeaz.com/yfof/tenthou.htm http://www.raypfob.com/iwasbornabout.htm IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6121. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: A.A. and the U.S./Canadian Thanksgiving celebrations From: James Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/21/2009 11:20:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Do you have any referencesor stories relating to AA & Thanksgiving? The November 1949 issue of the AA Grapevine was dedicated to AA's 12 Traditions and a suggestion was put forward that Thanksgiving week be dedicated to meetings and meditation on the Traditions. It also noted that GSO would send out a letter covering specifics to all group secretaries and that if the groups approved, special materials would be prepared and sent out. The November 1950 and 1951 issues celebrated Thanksgiving as Traditions week and then it was dropped. Jim IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6122. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: A.A. and the U.S./Canadian Thanksgiving celebrations From: Charlie Bishop, Jr. . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/21/2009 10:33:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In response to the query on the origin of November as "Gratitude Month," the information below is transcribed from Box 459 Vol. 46, No. 5/ October - November 2000 - - - - Gratitude Month Our Chance to Say `Thank You!' "The idea is in the air that A.A. might adopt Thanksgiving week as a time for meetings and meditation on the Traditions," A.A. co-founder Bill W. wrote in the November 1949 issue of the Grapevine (The Language of the Heart, p. 95) shortly after publication of the Twelve Traditions. In fact, the idea had already taken hold earlier in the decade when, each fall, the General Service Board hosted small Gratitude Dinners - precursors of the larger, more elaborate Gratitude Luncheons that would be held during the '60s as an initiative of the trustees' Public Information Committee. The first official recognition of an A.A. Gratitude Week, specifically designed to coincide with Thanksgiving week in the U.S. (Canada celebrates in October), occurred in 1956, when the Sixth General Service Conference approved the motion, stipulating that "this action be noted in the annual pre-Thanksgiving appeals to the groups for funds to help support A.A.'s worldwide services." Three years later, Bill urged in a letter, "Gratitude should go forward, rather than backward... if you carry the message to still others, you will be making the best possible repayment for the help given to you." (As Bill Sees It, p. 29). The motivation behind A.A.'s Gratitude Lunches was threefold: to express personal gratefulness for the gift of sobriety; to carry the message of A.A. to other alcoholics; and to express appreciation to our professional friends for their numerous articles, books and radio and TV interviews relating to A.A. in the year just past. It was hoped, in the words of a General Service Office memo circulated at the time, that the luncheons would "advance A.A.'s public relations by bringing editors, publishers, writers and broadcasters in personal contact with sources of reliable information on the movement." Held without fail in November at New York City's Roosevelt Hotel, the luncheons were always well-attended. A typical list of invitees to the 1965 luncheon included representatives of The New York Times, McCall's Magazine, Medical World News and The Christian Science Monitor. Bill W. always addressed the gatherings, as did the late "Dr. Jack" Norris, then serving as A.A.'s Class A (nonalcoholic) trustee chairman. A discussion period followed the proceedings, an ample selection of A.A. literature was available for the taking, and in 1965 Bill sent an autographed copy of A.A. Comes of Age to every guest. The luncheons were discontinued in 1968, but the concept of gratitude persisted and expanded in scope. For decades now, A.A.s in the U.S. have set aside all of November as Gratitude Month - marking the occasion with special contributions to G.S.O. In the spirit of the Seventh Tradition A.A. is self-supporting through its members' contributions, and frequently turns away money from well-meaning outside contributors. This means that the active input of every A.A. is vital to the life of the Fellowship. Grateful for the sobriety they've been given and eager to pass it on, A.A.s are busier than ever in Twelfth Stepping and service. They are reaching out in greater numbers to Loners, people with special needs, members of minority groups and previously unreached alcoholics. It is clear from their sharing that an overwhelming number of A.A.s - along with many of our professional friends - find their own special ways to say thank you during Gratitude Month and, indeed, all year long. Writes one member: "Enclosed is a check for Gratitude Month, because I want A.A. to be there for all those who need it, just as I did." From another: "The enclosed check is from my own pocket, to help groups in correctional facilities like mine. Some of us are struggling to turn our lives around. We begin the process in here ourselves, and by reaching out." And a nonalcoholic missionary wrote from India, "It is a matter of great encouragement and satisfaction that your A.A. has been a rich resource of guidance, help and light for a number of organizations dealing with problems related to alcohol...." Besides observing Gratitude Month, many a member uses the A.A. Birthday Plan "to give back what's been given to me," as one wrote. And from another fateful A.A.: "I want to say thanks today for my life and my family's - or all of us alcoholics in recovery," he wrote. "Enclosed is an anniversary check, because I want the hand of A.A. to be there for all who need it." Like him, many members celebrate their A.A. birthdays by sending in a gratitude gift to G.S.O. - usually a dollar or two for each year of sobriety. Some groups follow this Birthday Plan by collecting contributions from members on a voluntary basis throughout the year, or until the number of dollars matches the member's total years of sobriety. On the group's anniversary, the money collected is sent to G.S.O. as a birthday contribution. Gratitude. It's a weighty, high-dignity word, but in truth its close companions are humor and joy. As Bill W. observed early on in the Big Book (p. 132), "Outsiders are sometimes shocked when we burst into merriment over a seemingly tragic experience out of the past. But why shouldn't we laugh? We have recovered, and have been given the power to help others." What greater cause can there be for rejoicing than this? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6123. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: A.A. and the U.S./Canadian Thanksgiving celebrations From: rick tompkins . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/22/2009 6:09:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The "Remember November" AA anniversary / birthday Plan is announced each Fall in Northern Illinois Area 20 without the text of a Thanksgiving Holiday appeal. NIA AAs and/or Groups are encouraged to contribute independent funds to the Area Treasurer with suggested amounts of a dollar for each year of sobriety. The contributions are gathered in a fund that is sent as a separate Area contribution, around the first of each year, to AA World Services at GSO. This "Remember November" effort is shared as the month of Bill W.'s last hospital stay and the time of year in 1934 when Ebby T. first brought him the message of recovery. The original NIA request for anniversary contributions was called "Penny A Day For Sobriety" and was encouraged in Novembers by Area 20 Treasurers from the 1970s through 1986, when the "Remember November" Plan was launched as its replacement. Amounts anywhere from $1,500 to $5,000 have been sent from Area 20 to AAWS every year since 1986. The totals are reported as the Area 20 response to GSO's request toward filling out the funds in its annual budgets. Individual AAs and AA Groups remain the only contributors to this independent fund. I know of Intergroups and AA Clubs who send out a formal "Thanksgiving Appeal" envelope each year and those contributions stay at the local level. And many Districts, Groups and/or AA Club Meetings around here host marathon meetings for the Thanksgiving Holiday weekend---i.e. non-stop AA meetings every hour around the clock, for at least Thanksgiving Day or through the entire weekend. Best regards to all for a happy, safe, and sober 2009 Thanksgiving, Rick, Illinois IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6124. . . . . . . . . . . . Judge Trafton''s book on AA (written in Boston) From: Ernest Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/24/2009 5:11:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A friend recently queried me about someone who claimed that her great-grandfather was a judge in Boston at the time AA took hold there and wrote a book about AA that has apparently been lost by the family (she is digging through attics). It sounds like it would have been a small run press, title is unknown, judge's last name was Trafton. Might this ring a bell for anyone? Both the Trafton name and information about such a book are unfamiliar to me, but I am hoping that someone out there in AAHL-land may be able to do better. Please pass on any related information to the list or directly to me if you prefer? Thanks to any who can give this some thought. ernie kurtz ---- Ernest Kurtz, Ph.D. Adjunct Assistant Research Scientist (than which rank there is no lower) The University of Michigan School of Medicine (kurtzern at umich.edu) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6125. . . . . . . . . . . . Serenity Prayer Skeptic Now Credits Niebuhr NY times Nov 27 09 From: diazeztone . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/28/2009 3:02:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A Yale librarian who cast doubt last year on the origins of the Serenity Prayer, adopted by Alcoholics Anonymous and reprinted on countless knickknacks, says new evidence has persuaded him to retain the famed Protestant theologian Reinhold Niebuhr as the author in the next edition of The Yale Book of Quotations. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/28/us/28prayer.html LD Pierce editor aabibliography.com - - - - THE TEXT OF THE ARTICLE: Serenity Prayer Skeptic Now Credits Niebuhr By Laurie Goodstein The New York Times November 27, 2009 A Yale librarian who cast doubt last year on the origins of the Serenity Prayer, adopted by Alcoholics Anonymous and reprinted on countless knickknacks, says new evidence has persuaded him to retain the famed Protestant theologian Reinhold Niebuhr as the author in the next edition of The Yale Book of Quotations. The provenance of the prayer, which begins, “God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,” became a subject of controversy last year with the publication of an article by the librarian, Fred R. Shapiro, who is also the editor of the book of quotations. Mr. Shapiro had found archival materials that led him to express doubt that Niebuhr was the author. But now another researcher trawling the Internet has discovered evidence that attributes the prayer to Niebuhr. The researcher, Stephen Goranson, works in the circulation department at the Duke University library, has a doctorate from Duke in the history of religion and, as a sideline, searches for the origins of words and sayings and publishes his findings in etymology journals. This month he found a Christian student newsletter written in 1937 that cites Niebuhr as the prayer’s author. The prayer in the newsletter is slightly different from the contemporary one often printed on mugs and wall plaques. It reads, “Father, give us courage to change what must be altered, serenity to accept what cannot be helped, and the insight to know the one from the other.” The contemporary version puts the phrase about serenity before the one about courage, but Mr. Goranson said in an interview, “I think the 1937 document very much strengthens the probability that Niebuhr wrote it.” Mr. Shapiro agreed. “The new evidence does not prove that Reinhold Niebuhr wrote it, but it does significantly improve the likelihood that he was the originator,” he said. He added that unless there were further discoveries contradicting that assessment, “I will list the Serenity Prayer under Niebuhr’s name in my next edition of The Yale Book of Quotations.” Niebuhr, who lived from 1892 to 1971, was a prophetic, politically attuned preacher who often spoke at universities and Y.M.C.A.’s, where he was more welcome than in the many churches that considered him too controversial. He influenced generations of theologians and political thinkers. Barack Obama said of him, “He’s one of my favorite philosophers.” The Serenity Prayer was adopted by the U.S.O. in wartime, and by Alcoholics Anonymous, which uses it in its 12-step program. But even in Niebuhr’s lifetime, he faced accusations that he was not the prayer’s author. A magazine article in 1950 quoted him as saying: “Of course, it may have been spooking around for years, even centuries, but I don’t think so. I honestly do believe that I wrote it myself.” Niebuhr’s family long maintained that he wrote the prayer in 1943, in the midst of World War II. But using Internet search engines, Mr. Shapiro found newspaper articles, pamphlets and a book that cited versions of the prayer and dated from as early as 1936. None of those materials attributed the prayer to Niebuhr (or, for that matter, to anyone else). As a result, Mr. Shapiro (who writes occasionally for The New York Times Magazine and the Freakonomics blog at nytimes.com) wrote an article for The Yale Alumni Magazine positing that Niebuhr might have simply codified a popular prayer that was already in circulation. The article also said: “This evidence is by no means conclusive. It is entirely possible that Niebuhr composed the prayer much earlier than he himself later remembered.” But Niebuhr’s family, and many of his former students and adherents, were outraged. His daughter, Elisabeth Sifton, who had written a book called “The Serenity Prayer: Faith and Politics in Times of Peace and War” (W. W. Norton, 2003), published a rebuttal in the alumni magazine. She argued that her father had often delivered oral versions of a prayer before ever writing it down and that this prayer was quintessentially Niebuhr. She also said she had cited 1943 in her book as the date the Serenity Prayer was first used because that was what she had heard from her parents. But had she known about the documents Mr. Shapiro found, she said, she might have cited an earlier date. The debate played out in a front-page article in The New York Times in July 2008. The evidence newly discovered, by Mr. Goranson, was in a Christian student publication, The Intercollegian and Far Horizons, in an article titled “What Makes a Strong Student Christian Association.” He uncovered it in a database search, and was able to find a paper copy in the library. He posted an item about his find on a Listserv of language scholars, and Mr. Shapiro brought it to the attention of The Times. At the end of the article is a list of 10 attributes of a strong Christian student association. The last of them is that such an association should be “inspired by the prayer attributed to Reinhold Niebuhr.” The article then gives the version of the prayer that begins, “Father, give us courage to change what must be altered.” The article says the list is being reprinted from another newsletter, News and Views, which Mr. Goranson said he had not been able to find in any library. In a telephone interview, Ms. Sifton said of the new find, “I think it’s an interesting small item, which confirms what I’ve thought for some time”: Niebuhr is unquestionably the author. “As every living pastor knows,” she said, “prayers evolve and change. You use them in one service and another context, and slowly you refine the hopes and aspirations you want to express.” [A version of this article appeared in print on November 28, 2009, on page A11 of the New York edition.] - - - - ALSO SENT IN BY: Stockholm Fellowship (stockholmfellowship at gmail.com) who says "Credit restored." And "jblair101" (jrblair at umich.edu) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6126. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Serenity Prayer Skeptic Now Credits Niebuhr From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/29/2009 5:05:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In terms of giving a date for when the Serenity Prayer was discovered by AA, see: http://hindsfoot.org/archive3.html AA Bulletin No. 3 (June 20, 1941) announced the discovery of what was later to be called the Serenity Prayer: "One of our New York members clipped the following from the personal column of a New York paper, and since it seems to 'hit the spot', here it is:" "God grant me the serenity to accept things I cannot change, courage to change things I can, and wisdom to know the difference." - - - - For a detailed account of what AA sources have said about the discovery of the Serenity Prayer, see: Message #1965 From "Arthur" (ArtSheehan at msn.com) http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/1965 RE: Serenity Prayer and New York Herald Tribune From 1957 to 1999, different pieces of literature have varying accounts of the story (sometimes contradictory): AA Comes of Age from AAWS (pg 196) 1957 Has it occurring in 1942. Wording of prayer is slightly different using the pronouns "us" and "we." In early 1942, nonalcoholic Secretary Ruth Hock left us to be married.... Just before Ruth left, a news clipping whose content was to become famous was called to our attention by a New York member, newsman Jack. It was an obituary notice from a New York paper Underneath a routine account of the one who had died, there appeared these words: "God grant us the serenity to accept the things we cannot change, courage to change the things we can and wisdom to know the difference." .. Howard walked into the office. Confirming our own ideas, he exclaimed, "We ought to print this on cards and drop one into every piece of mail that goes out of here. I'll pay for the first printing." Bill W by Robert Thomsen (pgs 261-262) 1975 Has it occurring in Newark, NJ - which places it in early 1940 One morning Ruth found in the mail a newspaper clipping containing a three-line prayer. It had been torn from an unidentified newspaper and sent in by an anonymous member. She read it and was instantly struck by how much AA thinking could be compressed into three short lines. On her own, Ruth had the prayer printed on cards, and without asking anyone, she began slipping a card into each piece of mail that went out from the Newark office. ... And in this way the Serenity Prayer became part of the AA canon, its phrases part of the alcoholic lingo. Pass It On from AAWS (pg 252) 1984 No date is given for the letter used as a point of reference but the news article is placed in 1941 ... The prayer had found its way into the Vesey Street office shortly before that letter was written ... It was discovered in the "In Memorium" column of an early June 1941 edition of the New York Herald Tribune. The exact wording was "Mother – God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference. Goodbye." Said Ruth "Jack C appeared at the office one morning, and he showed me the obituary notice with the 'Serenity Prayer.' I was as much impressed with it as he was and asked him to leave it with me so that I could copy and use it in our letters to the groups and loners. Horace C had the idea of printing it on cards and paid for the first printing." Grateful to Have Been There by Nell Wing (pg 167-168) 1992 Seems to be taken from Pass It On – has Ruth writing to a member in Washington DC on June 12, 1941 The prayer entered unobtrusively in 1941. It was discovered in the "In Memorium" obituary column of an early June edition of the New York Herald Tribune. The exact wording was "God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference. Goodbye." Some fifteen years later, reminiscing about this event, Ruth Hock Crecelius, our first non-alcoholic Secretary said: "It is a fact that Jack C appeared at the office [30 Vesey Street, Manhattan] one morning for a chat, during the course of which he showed me the obituary notice with the "Serenity Prayer." I was as much impressed with it as he was and asked him to leave it with me so that I could copy it and use it in our letters to the groups and loners... At this time, Bobbie B [who became Secretary when Ruth married in February 1942] who was also terrifically impressed with it, undoubtedly used it in her work with the many she contacted daily at the 24th St Clubhouse... Horace C had the idea of printing it on cards and paid for the first printing. ... On June 12, 1941, Ruth wrote Henry S, a Washington DC member and printer ... [she asked Henry what it would cost to print it on a small card]. Women Pioneers in 12 Step Recovery by C Hunter, B Jones and J Zieger (pgs 79-80) 1999 No mention of dates Ruth played a major part in introducing the serenity Prayer to the Fellowship. Jack C, a New York newspaperman and recovering drunk, brought a newspaper clipping to the office. It was an obituary that closed with the words: "God grant us the serenity to accept the things we cannot change, courage to change the things we can and wisdom to know the difference." Bill and Ruth agreed with Jack that "never had we seen so much AA in so few words." And Ruth began at once to tuck the prayer into the letters she was sending out. Not long afterward, Horace C, an older member and friend of Bill came in with the suggestion to print the prayer on cards that could be included with all the outgoing letters. Everyone thought it was a wonderful idea but they had no money to implement it – so Horace personally paid to have the cards printed. I think there is a fair chance that the obituary may have been printed prior to June 1941 and it may also be from a newspaper other than the NY Herald Tribune. Cheers Arthur IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6127. . . . . . . . . . . . Need 3 A.A. pioneers to speak at San Antonio International From: schaberg43 . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/30/2009 3:09:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A friend has been asked to find three "A.A. Pioneers" to speak about their early experiences in A.A. at the San Antonio International Convention. The presentation will be held on Saturday, July 3rd between 1:30 and 3:00 PM –- and each speaker should be prepared to talk approximately 30 minutes. If you know someone who would qualify for this panel (i.e. 50+ years sober) AND who is already planning to attend the International in San Antonio, please contact mirzam@aa.org (mirzam at aa.org) directly about participation. Thanks, Old Bill IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6128. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Judge Trafton''s book on AA (written in Boston) From: Charlie C . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/28/2009 8:20:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I just checked WorldCat, both WorldCat.org (the free version,) and the more extensive library version, and do not see anything for a Trafton as author on AA. That doesn't mean it wasn't written, but it does mean that if it was, it does not seem to be held in any libraries, and was likely a very small run vanity press title. I also googled it, no luck, and do not see anything in abebooks.com, the major used book dealer site, so whatever this was, if it was indeed written it is quite fugitive at this point. I'll keep an eye out though! Charlie C.IM = route20guy Go settle down And quit your triflin' ways 'Cause the boogerman's gonna get you one of these days Kitty Wells, Make up Your Mind, 1950 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6129. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Are there recordings of Lois Wilson speaking? From: squooze . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/26/2009 12:23:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There are several past messages asking about recordings of early A.A. and Al-Anon speakers. For Lois Wilson, go to http://www.rexark.com/ and their section on Great AFG Speakers (Al-Anon Family Groups) at: http://www.rexark.com/collections/great-afg-speakers Bill and Lois, AA Convention, 1960 The Third International Conference of Alcoholics Anonymous AKA: 25th-Anniversary Convention Recorded 1960, 2 CD Booklet Remastered. The original cassette recordings were passed around for many years, and suffer from poor sound quality, even unintelligible in... For Chuck H. speaking in New Hampshire, go to their section on Great AA Men Speakers at: http://www.rexark.com/collections/great-aa-men-speakers Chuck H., from Cary, North Carolina, 2008 Chuck H., from Cary, North Carolina, was the Sunday morning speaker at the 2008 New Hampshire Alcoholics Anonymous Convention. His great sense of humor, combined with a story involving extreme loss, make for a highly-recommended... ______________________________ ______________________________ ______________________________ Original message 5101 from Bill Lash (barefootbill at optonline.net) http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/5101 "400+ AA History and Oldtimer CDs and DVDs" www.justloveaudio.com has just added over 400 AA History and Oldtimer CDs and DVDs to our store. Many of these Oldtimers came to AA in the 1930s and 1940s. - - - - Original message 5108 from (sobrietytalks at aol.com) http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/messages/5108 "Re: 400+ AA History and Oldtimer CDs and DVDs" There is also a great collection of historical Alcoholics Anonymous talks at www.sobrietytalks.com There's a specific category for AA history related talks and recordings made prior to 1970. - - - - Original message 3298 from Cindy Miller, Robert Stonebraker, Joe Adams, and K D Dew http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/3298 Cindy Miller says she has one recording ("Classic Talks") of Lois from Dicobe Tapes. Joe Adams says: I download many many many free files in MP3 format from http://www.xa-speakers.org, including historic Bill, Bob, Lois and other key speakers. Another good library to hear things online in real-audio format from: http://www.aaprimarypurpose.org/speakers.htm. K. D. Dew says: I know of one free recording try this link: http://www.aaprimarypurpose.org/speakers.htm Here's another link: http://amottapes.com/ but they charge IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6130. . . . . . . . . . . . Jellinek chart From: nuevenueve@ymail.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/8/2009 8:10:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello Group: When googling Jellinek chart images one gets inverted bell-type curves with labels on the negative slope matching more or less to the 45 disease phases or stages. My question is, Was the "recovery zone" (positive slope)also provided/studied by Jellinek or is this a product of later experience? Thank you. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6132. . . . . . . . . . . . Cassette tape to digital conversion From: Edward . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/8/2009 8:59:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII After the New Year, I will have a more open schedule that allows me time for service work, and recently got my equipment for transferring cassette tape recordings to MP3 digital format working well (see my recent reply to query regarding Al-Anon/Lois W. recordings). Anyone who would like tapes converted to digital format, please reply to this message at: elg3_79@yahoo.com (elg3_79 at yahoo.com) I regard this as a service commitment and do not charge. YIS Ted G., Roanoke, VA IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6133. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Jellinek chart From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/11/2009 11:23:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII All the information for what is called the "Jellinek Chart" was derived through the AA Grapevine in 1945 and 1946. From the June 1964 Grapevine "The Grapevine Starts Its Twenty-First Year": JELLINEK'S "PHASES." In April, 1945, the Grapevine broke new ground. We published a questionnaire designed by the late beloved and distinguished Dr. E. M. (Bunky) Jellinek, then head of the Yale (now Rutgers) Center of Alcohol Studies, and asked AA members to make a contribution to science by mailing in the questionnaire anonymously. Hundreds did, and this is the origin of Dr. Jellinek's famous chart, "Phases of Alcohol Addiction," later distributed throughout the world and generally conceded to be one of the most important pieces of research ever done in the whole field of alcoholism. From the August 1946 Grapevine "A.A.s TO BE ASKED FOR INFORMATION" A.A.s will be invited shortly to assist, insofar as the filling out of the questionnaire and collecting data, on a nationwide basis, in a new educational project aimed at accumulating new information which may help potential alcoholics to avoid going across the line into alcoholism. The origins of the new project go back more than a year to a meeting of the Greenwich Village Group in New York City at which the question was raised as to whether the life of an alcoholic could be charted in graph form. The group debated whether a graph could be prepared which would give any indication of averages relating to the progress of alcoholism, of averages relating to age, home environment and other circumstances, and of averages pertaining to the behaviorism of an alcoholic. The members of the "Village" group decided that the first step in acquiring the data needed for a graph would be a questionnaire, and that even if the undertaking did not yield any information of use outside the Group it would form the basis of stimulating discussions and self-analysis while being prepared. A questionnaire was drawn up and circulated among different A.A.s throughout the New York metropolitan area. When the questionnaires were finally collected, filled in, the information they contained seemed to have some degree of pertinence. Members of the sponsoring Group, however, did not feel qualified to evaluate the data themselves. Consequently, they sent the questionnaires to Dr. E. M. Jellinek, director of the Summer School of Alcohol Studies at Yale University, for an appraisal because of his wide experience in research and the gathering of information by the questionnaire method. Dr. Jellinek's response to the potential value of the questionnaire and the data it might yield was enthusiastic. If the questionnaires were revised and expanded to include certain areas of information overlooked in the original questionnaire, Dr. Jellinek said he thought it might well be the source of some of the most valuable data collected to date on alcoholism. One of the chief values, Dr. Jellinek said, in circulating the questionnaire through A.A. membership would be the complete reliability of the information obtained. He pointed out that no group of people could be found more thoroughly qualified to discuss alcoholism and that as A.A.s "they can be depended upon to be completely frank and honest in their efforts." The new, revised questionnaire is now ready for distribution to A.A.s throughout the country. Quotas will be sent to the secretaries of the various groups with the request that all individual members be invited to participate in the project by filling out the questionnaires, which of course will be unsigned and thereby preserve the A.A. principle of anonymity. Most appealing to members of A.A. will be the fact that one of the chief hopes and expectancies is that the data obtained from the questionnaires will provide a new and still more complete set of warning signals by which potential alcoholics will be able to determine how far along the road they have come and by which even "social drinkers" will be able to gauge whether they have any tendencies which need to be watched or restrained. Evidence which can be used as a preventive of alcoholism is an objective which, it is felt, will enlist the interest of all A.A.s in the project. A preliminary report on the nature of the data indicated in the original questionnaire is to be published soon as an explanatory preface to distribution of the new questionnaire. From the January 1947 Grapevine: "New Yale Study Includes Data from Questionnaire" Hillhouse Press (432 Temple Street, New Haven 11, Conn.) announces the publication of Phases in the Drinking History of Alcoholics by Professor E. M. Jellinek of Yale University. This work, constituting Memoir No. 5 in a series of reports of studies conducted by the Section of Studies on Alcohol of the Yale University Laboratory of Applied Physiology, presents the analysis of a questionnaire survey conducted among members of Alcoholics Anonymous by their own official organ, The A. A. Grapevine. Professor Jellinek, the author, is a leading authority' in scientific research on alcoholism and director of the School of Alcohol Studies at Yale. Cheers Arthur - - - - FROM THE MODERATOR: Elvin Morton "Bunky" Jellinek (1890-1963) was born in New York City and died at the desk of his study at Stanford University on 22 October 1963. His real speciality was biostatistics -- taking complex sets of biological statistics about anything (trees, plants, or in this case alcoholics) and spotting patterns in the data. From 1941 to 1952, he was Associate Professor of Applied Physiology at Yale University. In 1952 he was engaged by the World Health Organization (WHO) in Geneva as a consultant on alcoholism. Upon his retirement from WHO, in 1958 he joined the Psychiatry Schools of both the University of Toronto and the University of Alberta, and in 1962, he moved to Stanford University in California, where he remained until his death. Among the well-known AA figures who studied with Jellinek and applied his principles to their work with alcoholics, were Mrs. Marty Mann (founder of the National Council on Alcoholism and one of the major popularizers of the disease concept of alcoholism), William E. Swegan http://hindsfoot.org/essays.html (chief spokesman for that wing of early AA which emphasized the psychological aspects of the program rather than the spiritual), and Searcy Whalen http://hindsfoot.org/BSV02Psy.html in Dallas, Texas, who helped keep Ebby Thacher sober for longer than anyone else had. Beginning in 1949, Searcy established alcohol hospitals (the predecessor of today’s drug and alcohol treatment centers) in three Texas cities -- Lubbock, Dallas, and Houston -- and in Carlsbad, New Mexico. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6134. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Jellinek chart From: john wikelius . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/9/2009 2:53:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From John Wikelius and Jon Markle - - - - From: john wikelius (justjohn1431946 at yahoo.com) I have the book "The Disease Concept of Alcoholism" 2d printing dated December 1962. There are no charts shown in this volume. - - - - From: Jon Markle (serenitylodge at mac.com) The Jellinek curve is no longer accepted by most scientists as legitimate. Apparently the methods used to compile the chart are suspect and not supported by any current study methods. Jon Markle/MA Retired Therapist & SA Counseling Dual Diagnosis/COD speciality HS Practitioner, Advisor & Case Consultations Raleigh, NC 9/9/82 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6135. . . . . . . . . . . . Picture of the Jellinek chart From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/13/2009 6:24:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: David Jones (jonesd926 at aol.com) Here is a link to the Jellinek chart as it was portrayed by the Alcoholism Council of Greater Los Angeles. This drawing appears in the book "Ministering to Alcoholics" by John E. Keller, Augsburg Publishing House, Minneapolis, Minnesota, 1966. http://www.southalabama.edu/coe/bset/guest/Jellinek%20Chart.htm God bless Dave IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6136. . . . . . . . . . . . Another picture (color) of the Jellinek Curve From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/13/2009 6:40:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: David Jones (jonesd926 at aol.com) Here is another link: http://bp1.blogger.com/_Eqntjja134w/SEYGzZmccfI/AAAAAAAAACk/44OLgiO1Ri0/s160 0-h/\ Untitled1.jpg [30] God bless Dave IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6137. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Picture of the Jellinek chart From: Doug B. . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/13/2009 6:42:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII They also called it the "Jellinek Curve." Here is another place online where it can be seen: http://www.aahistory.com/aa/jellinekcurve.gif Doug Barrie www.aahistory.com IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6138. . . . . . . . . . . . Silkworth: The Little Doctor who Loved Drunks From: Stephen . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/13/2009 8:25:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I apologize in advance if this is an inappropriate topic for this thread but I have exhausted my resources looking for a copy of Dale Mitchel, "Silkworth: The Little Doctor Who Loved Drunks: The Biography of William Duncan Silkworth, M.D." (Center City, Minnesota: Hazelden, 2002). Aside from paying the $61 to $200 which Amazon and http://www.abebooks.com/ are asking. Could someone email me if they have a copy they could lend me? My email address is: "Stephen" (saberle at comcast.net) I will be happy to pay shipping or if you are local in New Jersey, I could meet you at a meeting of your choice. Thanks in advance IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6139. . . . . . . . . . . . Price of Big Book From: jrobbins1123 . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/14/2009 12:02:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does anyone have any data outlining the cost of the Big Book in Mexico, in England and in Russia? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6140. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Jellinek chart From: James Bliss . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/14/2009 8:20:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Do you have any sitations of online articles or references to journals which discuss the Jellinek curve and its fall from legitimacy? Also, any pointers to the evolution of modern theory would be appreciated. I would suspect that the anonymous responses was one of the primary reasons that this is not supported by any current methodology, but would be interested in seeing discussions surrounding this and what current methodologies have been used. Thanks, Jim > > > - - - - > > From: Jon Markle > > (serenitylodge at mac.com) > > The Jellinek curve is no longer accepted by > most scientists as legitimate. Apparently the > methods used to compile the chart are suspect > and not supported by any current study methods. > > Jon Markle/MA > Retired Therapist & SA Counseling > Dual Diagnosis/COD speciality > HS Practitioner, Advisor & Case Consultations > Raleigh, NC > 9/9/82 > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6141. . . . . . . . . . . . Huxley/Wilson: what is leuko-adrenochrome? From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/14/2009 4:52:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Letter from Aldous Huxley to Dr Humphrey Osmond (Hotel Shoreham, 33W. 55th, NYC; 16 September 1960): "... Yesterday I lunched with Bill Wilson who spoke enthusiastically of his own experiences with leuko-adrenochrome and of the successful use of it on his ex-alcoholic neurotics. This really sounds like a break-through and I hope you are going ahead with clinical testing. Do you have any of the stuff to spare? If so, I'd be most grateful for a sample. It might relieve my tension-pains in the lower back, as it relieved Bill's aches and those of some of his friends. I wd like too to be able to send a few pills to Laura, who has some of Bill's symptoms - tension, then exhaustion, and then tremendous drive to overcome the exhaustion. If you and Abram have really found something that will normalise, say, 50% or even more of neurotics, you will be among the great benefactors of humanity. But of course you will be attacked by all the Freudians. They will be fighting, not only for the Master, but for their livelihood. No more ten-year analyses, no more couch-addicts. What will become of the poor fellows? My address in Cambridge will be 100 Memorial Drive, Cambridge 38, Mass, Ever yours, Aldous." (Quoted in "Letters of Aldous Huxley"; edited by Grover Smith; Chatto and Windus, London; 1969). More, please, on "leuko-adrenochrome" - is it another term, for LSD? Who is Abram, and what became of their project? Huxley is often credited with the quotation that he believed Bill to be "the greatest social architect of the 20th century"; but as the hostile blogger Speedy0314 points out: "Oddly enough (this quote) can't be found in any of Huxley's writings or recorded interviews". So did Huxley really say or write it? Seems unlikely someone would have made it up. Laurie A. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6142. . . . . . . . . . . . Wilson, Lois copyright Ellie van V., 1998 All rights reserved From: Jim M . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/13/2009 11:06:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This subject title is also known as "Diary of Two Motorcycle Hobos." The Copyright holder is clearly stated in the subject line and in the file I have on hand, however, I received a disturbing email from the Director, Annah Perch, of the Stepping Stones Foundation, ready to act on behalf of the Copyright holder. Does anyone here on AAHistoryLovers know how to get in touch with the Copyright holder, Ellie van V.? I wish to open a direct line of communication with Ellie van V. to talk with her about her title mentioned above. I believe this title is an important part of pre AA history with a glimpse into the lives of our would be cofounders of Alcoholics Anonymous and Al-anon which can be viewed on this page: http://www.silkworth.net/freestuff.html. Any information you can provide would be of great assistance. Your comments on the above are also welcomed and will be of great help to me in my making the right decission. If you wish, you can contact me directly by sending an email to: "Jim M" (silkworthdotnet at yahoo.com) I thank you for your continued support for the service silkworth.net provides. Yours in service, Ever greatful, Jim M, http://www.silkworth.net/ IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6143. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Silkworth: The Little Doctor who Loved Drunks From: diazeztone . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/14/2009 12:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII wow we are out of luck! (I never bought a copy either!) I called hazelden and they do not have any left either~!! I just got off the phone with the lady there again and suggested they put their older out of print books to some "print on demand" service so people could still be buying them ld pierce eztone at hotmail aabibliography.com --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen" wrote: > > I apologize in advance if this is an inappropriate > topic for this thread but I have exhausted my > resources looking for a copy of > > Dale Mitchel, "Silkworth: The Little Doctor > Who Loved Drunks: The Biography of William > Duncan Silkworth, M.D." (Center City, Minnesota: > Hazelden, 2002). > > Aside from paying the $61 to $200 which Amazon > and http://www.abebooks.com/ are asking. > > Could someone email me if they have a copy they > could lend me? My email address is: > > "Stephen" > (saberle at comcast.net) > > I will be happy to pay shipping or if you are > local in New Jersey, I could meet you at a > meeting of your choice. > > Thanks in advance > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6144. . . . . . . . . . . . Liverpool AA in England From: Des Green . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/16/2009 4:18:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Greetings! Does anybody have any information on early Liverpool AA? Our local history archivist is putting something together and doesn't have much. Can anybody help? Best wishes Des PS My personal email is puggreen2008@yahoo.co.uk (puggreen2008 at yahoo.co.uk) Thanks! IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6145. . . . . . . . . . . . Christmas greeting from Bill W. in 1944 From: Lois Stevens . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/15/2009 5:35:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII >>Subject:Christmas greeting from Bill W. and others in 1944 >> >>TO ALL MEMBERS >> >>Greetings On Our 10th Christmas >> >>1944 >> >>Yes, it's in the air! The spirit of Christmas once more warms this poor distraught world. Over the whole globe millions are looking forward to that one day when strife can be forgotten, when it will be remembered that all human beings, even the least are loved by God, when men will hope for the coming of the Prince of Peace as they never hoped before. >> >>But there is another world which is not poor. Neither is it distraught. >> >>It is the world of Alcoholics Anonymous, where thousands dwell happily and secure. Secure because each of us, in his own way, knows a greater power who is love, who is just, and who can be trusted. >> >>Nor can men and women of AA ever forget that only through suffering did they find enough humility to enter the portals of that New World. >> >>How privileged we are to understand so well the divine paradox that strength rises from weakness, that humiliation goes before resurrection; that pain is not only the price but the very touchstone of spiritual rebirth. >> >>Knowing it's full worth and purpose, we can no longer fear adversity, we have found prosperity where there was poverty, peace and joy have sprung out of the very midst of chaos. >> >>Great indeed, our blessings! >> >>And so,-- Merry Christmas to you all-- from the Trustees, from Bobbie and from Lois and me. >> >>Bill Wilson IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6146. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Price of Big Book From: David Jones . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/14/2009 2:51:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A big book costs £8.20 in the U.K. God bless Dave > > > Does anyone have any data outlining the cost > of the Big Book in Mexico, in England and in > Russia? > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6147. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Picture of the Jellinek chart From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/14/2009 3:24:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Doug B." wrote: > > They also called it the "Jellinek Curve." Here > is another place online where it can be seen: > > http://www.aahistory.com/aa/jellinekcurve.gif > The chart looks like the one put together by Max Glatt, an alcoholism clinician in England, and published in an addiction journal there in 1958. Only the first half of the curve was based on Jellinek's work, but the association with the name Jellinek has stuck. Jellinek did realize the sketchy nature of the data he was using (fewer than 100 out of 1600 questionnaires sent out by the Grapevine were returned and usable, for one thing). That may be one of the reasons he postulated 5 types of alcoholism, and said that AA members were typically of the gamma type. It provided him with an out if anyone questioned his generalizations, but didn't stop other people from quoting him as though the gamma characteristics were universal. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6148. . . . . . . . . . . . Current use of Jellinek Charts From: RJF Bigpond . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/15/2009 7:36:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The Jellinek Chart, in tabular form, were used in Project MATCH in the 1990's as part of the Twelve Step Facilitation therapy arm of that research. The book Twelve Step Facilitation therapy by Joseph Nowinski (et al) was recently republished both for individual and group therapy incorporating the charts. There are many reports on this research -- start at NIAAA. They are used extensively in treatment (at least in Australia). Jackson F. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6149. . . . . . . . . . . . Huxley/Wilson: what is leuko-adrenochrome? From: John Keller . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/14/2009 3:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From John Keller, James Blair, Kevin Short (on HUNTER THOMPSON), and Ben Hammond - - - - From: "John Keller" (keller at ociofcharlotte.com) The "Abram" referenced is probably Abram Hoffer who, along with Humphrey Osmund and others, conducted studies of hallucinogenics, including LSD and mescaline, on chronic alcoholics in Saskatchewan in the early '50s. They used the drug in order to try to induce a spiritual experience like that which Bill W reported having at the Townes Hospital. I've not seen their research results, but have heard they had some success treating this population for whom all other approaches had failed. John K - - - - From: James Blair (jblair at videotron.ca) Megavitamin therapy advocates Abram Hoffer and Humphry Osmond claimed that adrenochrome is a hallucinogenic substance and may be responsible for schizophrenia and other mental illnesses. In what they called the "adrenochrome hypothesis", they speculated that megadoses of vitamin C and niacin could cure schizophrenia by reducing brain adrenochrome. There has been controversy about whether adrenochrome can be classified as a psychotropic drug. - - - - From: Kevin Short (kshort at oxmicro.com) To find more about leuko-adrenochrome, you may wish to search the Internet for "The Adrenochrome Hypothesis and Psychiatry" proposed by A. Hoffer, M.D. Ph.D. and H. Osmond, M.D. In fiction, HUNTER S. THOMPSON mentions adrenochrome in his novel "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas." In the book the effects are described as being like a combination of mescaline and methedrine. Kevin S. - - - - From: Ben Hammond (mlb9292 at gmail.com) Apparently the substance enhanced the effects of LSD...there are also comments on the role of Niacin in the testing of hallucinogens, a favorite subject of Bill W. Merry Christmas and God Bless, Old Ben IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6150. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Huxley/Wilson: what is leuko-adrenochrome? From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/14/2009 5:00:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From J. Lobdell, Sherry C. Hartsell, Gerry Winkelman, Doug B., and Baileygc23 - - - - From: "J. Lobdell" (jlobdell54 at hotmail.com) Bram is Abram Hoffer: I've printed below an abstract of the relevant 1959 article on leucocytic [?] adrenochrome treatment of schizophrenia (through lysergic acid diethylamide 25): Journal of Mental Science (1959) 105: 653-673. doi: 10.1192/bjp.105.440.653 © 1959 The Royal College of Psychiatrists Schizophrenia: A New Approach (Continued)* H. Osmond, M.R.C.S., D.P.M., Superintendent Saskatchewan Hospital, Weyburn, Saskatchewan A. Hoffer, Ph.D., M.D., Directors Psychiatric Research Department of Public Health, University Hospital, Saskatoon, Saskatchewan * Supported by National Health Grants, Ottawa, and the Rockefeller Foundation, New York under the auspices of the Saskatchewan Committee on Schizophrenia Research. ABSTRACT The authors discuss the last five years work of the Saskatchewan group and develop their hypothesis relating adrenaline metabolites to schizophrenia. They also discuss work done in other centres. They indicate some of the difficulties encountered not only in synthesizing adrenochrome and adrenolutin but also in working experimentally with them in human subjects. The successful synthesis of pure stable adrenochrome and adrenolutin has made chemical assay possible. Using their adrenochrome assay, they have found differences between adrenochrome metabolism in normals and schizophrenics. While these require exploration the authors believe that their hypothesis is strong enough to warrant attention or to see whether others can confirm their findings. While adrenochrome and adrenolutin are at present the only metabolites of adrenaline which can be obtained as pure stable compounds and have psychotomimetic properties, there is suggestive evidence that others will be found. - - - - From: "sherry c. hartsell" (hartsell at etex.net) Gerry Winkelman (khemex at comcast.net) "Doug B." (dougb at aahistory.com) (Baileygc23 at aol.com) SEE THE FOLLOWING ARTICLE: http://orthomolecular.org/library/jom/1999/articles/1999-v14n01-p049.shtml - - - - Original Message from: jennylaurie1@hotmail.com > Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 > > Letter from Aldous Huxley to Dr Humphrey Osmond (Hotel Shoreham, 33W. 55th, NYC; 16 September 1960): > > "... Yesterday I lunched with Bill Wilson who spoke enthusiastically of his own experiences with leuko-adrenochrome and of the successful use of it on his ex-alcoholic neurotics. This really sounds like a break-through and I hope you are going ahead with clinical testing. Do you have any of the stuff to spare? If so, I'd be most grateful for a sample. It might relieve my tension-pains in the lower back, as it relieved Bill's aches and those of some of his friends. I wd like too to be able to send a few pills to Laura, who has some of Bill's symptoms - tension, then exhaustion, and then tremendous drive to overcome the exhaustion. If you and Abram have really found something that will normalise, say, 50% or even more of neurotics, you will be among the great benefactors of humanity. But of course you will be attacked by all the Freudians. They will be fighting, not only for the Master, but for their livelihood. No more ten-year analyses, no more couch-addicts. What will become of the poor fellows? My address in Cambridge will be 100 Memorial Drive, Cambridge 38, Mass, Ever yours, Aldous." > > (Quoted in "Letters of Aldous Huxley"; edited by Grover Smith; Chatto and Windus, London; 1969). IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6151. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Price of Big Book From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/15/2009 10:04:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Current price of Big Book from General Service Office, York, Great Britain: Hardback £8 sterling; paperback £7; pocket sized £5. All available online from: http://www.alcoholics-anonymous.org.uk British Conference-approved literature still carries the Circle and Triangle logo. Laurie A. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6152. . . . . . . . . . . . Huxley and Hoffer on Bill W. From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/16/2009 2:50:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: (Baileygc23 at aol.com) "Bill Wilson is the greatest social architect of the 20th century." -- Aldous Huxley The man who would co-found Alcoholics Anonymous was born to a hard-drinking household in rural Vermont. When he was ten, his parents split up and Bill was raised by his maternal grandparents. He served in the Army in WW I, and although not seeing combat, Bill had more than ample opportunities to drink. In the 1920's, Wilson achieved considerable success as an inside trader on Wall Street, but a combination of drunkenness and the stock market crash drained what was left of his fortune and his capability to enjoy life. Hard knocks, religious experience, and a growing sense that by helping other alcoholics he could best help himself led Bill to create one of the world's most famous introductions: "My name is Bill W., and I'm an alcoholic." Even as Alcoholics Anonymous slowly grew, many of Bill's financial and personal problems endured, most notably depression. Abram Hoffer writes: "I met Bill in New York in 1960. Humphry Osmond and I introduced him to the concept of megavitamin therapy. Bill was very curious about it and began to take niacin, 3,000 mg daily. Within a few weeks fatigue and depression which had plagued him for years were gone. He gave it to 30 of his close friends in AA. Of the thirty, 10 were free of anxiety, tension and depression in one month. Another 10 were well in two months. Bill then wrote "The Vitamin B 3 Therapy." and thousands of copies of this extraordinary pamphlet were distributed. Bill became unpopular with the members of the board of AA International. The medical members, who had been appointed by Bill, "knew" vitamin B 3 could not be therapeutic as Bill had found it to be. I found it very useful in treating patients who were both alcoholic and schizophrenic. --From Vitamin B3: Niacin and Its Amide, by A. Hoffer, M.D., Ph.D.; Wilson B: The vitamin B3 therapy: The first communication to AA's physicians (1967); A second communication to AA's physicians (1968). http://orthomolecularvitamincentre.com/disorders.php IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6153. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Wilson, Lois copyright Ellie van V., 1998 All rights reserved From: Ernest Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/16/2009 2:58:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Jim, The ”freestuff“ link does not work: may I respectfully and gratefully suggest that you link to . . . silkworth.net/sitemap.html ? Any attorneys familiar with copyright law -- especially the most recent changes and ongoing discussions -- available out there, please? If you are willing, please contact me off-list? As a multiply copyrighted author as this electronic age comes into being, I find things too confusing for this legal mere layperson. Thank you. ernie kurtz kurtzern@umich.edu - - - - From Glenn C., the moderator The seven known used copies of Diary of Two Motorcycle Hobos, by Bill and Lois Wilson, in the version edited by Ellie van V. (Ottowa: Gratitude Press, 1998) which are currently for sale are selling for: US$ 58.88, 60.00, 81.55, 175.00, 379.95, 500.00, and 1,250.00 - - - - On Dec 13, 2009, at 11:06 PM, Jim M wrote: > This subject title is also known as "Diary of Two Motorcycle Hobos." > The Copyright holder is clearly stated in the subject line and in > the file I have on hand, however, I received a disturbing email from > the Director, Annah Perch, of the Stepping Stones Foundation, ready > to act on behalf of the Copyright holder. > > Does anyone here on AAHistoryLovers know how to get in touch with > the Copyright holder, Ellie van V.? I wish to open a direct line of > communication with Ellie van V. to talk with her about her title > mentioned above. > > I believe this title is an important part of pre AA history with a > glimpse into the lives of our would be cofounders of Alcoholics > Anonymous and Al-anon which can be viewed on this page: http://www.silkworth.net/freestuff.html > . Any information you can provide would be of great assistance. Your > comments on the above are also welcomed and will be of great help to > me in my making the right decission. > > If you wish, you can contact me directly by sending an email to: > > "Jim M" > (silkworthdotnet at yahoo.com) > > I thank you for your continued support for the service silkworth.net > provides. > > Yours in service, > Ever greatful, > Jim M, > http://www.silkworth.net/ IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6154. . . . . . . . . . . . Holiday greetings: Grapevine, December, 1952 From: Lois Stevens . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/16/2009 4:24:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII For the Holidays...some AA history... Between noon of Wednesday, December 24, 1952 and midnight of Thursday, January 1st, 1953, some 120,000 members of AA will have seen their dreams of a dry holiday and their hopes of a sane New Year's come safely true. The first Christmas for AA was the depression year of 1935. There were three old timers to mark it ... hardly a dozen newcomers to share it with them. In Akron, Dr. Bob and Bill D. were going on their second six months. Four recruits had from four months to two months.. in New York, Bill W. had thirteen months since his last drink, seven months since his historic trip to Akron and the start of AA. In Akron, the six gathered with their families at Dr. Bob's. There was no ceremony .... no exchange of presents. The Twelve Steps had not yet been formulated. The Big Book was only a vague stirring that would not even be in manuscript until three more Christmases had been achieved. But there was joy that this most dangerous of times for the alcoholic had arrived ... and twenty-four hours by twenty-four hours was being mastered. "There was thanks," remembers one of the two who survives that first Akron Christmas, "that we had come this far. However, I am certain that there was still considerable fear and trembling ... not fear that this new way would not work, but doubt and uncertainty that we would be able to hold on to it. Bill W. recalls only a quiet day in New York that Yule of 1935 where there were very few involved. Five years later, there was a place in New York for an AA Christmas party ... the first AA clubhouse. And about the 24th Street Club there hangs a real Santa Claus story! Or rather, it is a Saint Nicholas story. Just one hundred years before, in 1840, the building, that would later become the AA Club House, was erected at Number 334 1/2 West 24th Street ... the property of a family named Moore who were large landowners in Manhattan Island's Chelsea section. And driving across the snow-covered lawn, Dr. Clement Clarke Moore began to compose (some say just as his sled runners touched what is now the meeting room of AA's first clubhouse!) his immortal gift to children of all ages ... " 'Twas the night before Christmas." (Grapevine, December, 1952). IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6155. . . . . . . . . . . . Huxley on Bill W. as social architect From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/18/2009 6:04:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: (baileygc23 at aol.com) An Unusual Instance of Governance by Tom White http://www.lewrockwell.com/white/white45.html Thomsen's bio includes a quotation from British writer Aldous Huxley, who was a friend of Bill's. Huxley said that Bill was "the greatest social architect of the 20th century." [note 3] Bill's official biography [note 4] quotes Thomsen on this point. As far as I know, there is no other source for this comment of Huxley's, and so I do not know the context in which it was made. Huxley's remark is, I think, usually understood as referring to Wilson and Smith's adaptation of the Oxford Group's [note 5] spiritual principles to the salvaging of alcoholics. That was indeed an extraordinary contribution, but I tend to think, rather, that Huxley was referring to Bill's superb organization (always with Dr. Bob's concurrence while he was alive) of the governance of AA THE AUTHOR: Tom White writes from Odessa, Texas. He is the author of Bill W., A Different Kind of Hero: The Story of Alcoholics Anonymous (2003). NOTES: 3. Bill W. by Robert Thomsen (Harper & Row, New York, 1975) page 340. 4. Pass It On: Bill Wilson and the A.A. Message (A.A. World Services, Inc., New York, 1984) page 368. 5. For much of the first four years of AA history, 1935-1939. the groups that were to become AA were actually elements in Oxford Group chapters in Akron and New York City. AA has always acknowledged that the spiritual principles of its recovery program came from the Oxford Group, although with certain new verbal formulations (e.g. the Twelve Steps), with a narrowing of focus to concentrate on the recovery of alcoholics (where the OG aimed at personal "change" at depth for all people), and with the innovations in structure I discuss in this article. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6156. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Liverpool AA in England From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/17/2009 3:56:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Try the Archivist at General Service Office, PO Box 1, 10 Toft Green, York YO1 7NJ. Britain's official magazine "Share" (the equivalent of "Grapevine") published two books to commemorate the 50th and 60th anniversaries of the fellowship in Britain - "The First Fifty Years" (out of print), and "Share and Share Alike" (price £2.95 from GSO); both contain references to AA's early days in Liverpool. Laurie A. - - - - From: puggreen2008@yahoo.co.uk Greetings! Does anybody have any information on early Liverpool AA? Our local history archivist is putting something together and doesn't have much. Can anybody help? Best wishes Des PS My personal email is puggreen2008@yahoo.co.uk (puggreen2008 at yahoo.co.uk) Thanks! IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6157. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Huxley/Wilson: what is leuko-adrenochrome? From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/16/2009 7:14:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Adrenochrome is a pigmented molecule, an oxidation product of epinephrine. Epinephrine, also known as adrenaline, is metabolized to adrenochrome and an unpigmented molecule called adrenolutin. Leuko-adrenochrome may be another name for adrenolutin, but I think it is yet another molecule in the same pathway. Although adrenochrome has been used as a recreational drug, the high must not be too impressive as it has never been made illegal in the U.S. Leuko-adrenochrome, in any case, is a different molecule from adremochrome and apparently without significant psychotropic effects. What Bill noticed when he took it may only have been placebo effect. It was certainly nothing like LSD. Hoffer thought that schizophrenic symptoms were caused by an inborn error of metabolism involving the metabolites of adrenaline. He also thought that LSD helped alcoholics by giving them a sort of homeopathic dose of schizophrenic thinking, so he was interested in how alcoholics were affected by drugs in the family of adrenochrome. The quote about the greatest social architect has always intrigued me. It appears in "Pass It On" with no reference. Huxley was possibly the greatest dystopian of the 20th century, so it almost seems that calling Bill the "greatest social architect of the 20th century" would have to have been meant somewhat as a joke. If not a joke, wouldn't it have been a sort of an insult, coming from the author of "Brave New World"? As Huxley aged, however, he did become a bit of a utopian, so maybe he meant it in all sincerity. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6158. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Silkworth: The Little Doctor who Loved Drunks From: The Silkworth Team . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/17/2009 2:26:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Years back, Bill Pitman asked me to be the only site to offer information on the new Silkworth book and he sent me 2 copies, one of which I gave to the archives in Columbia, S.C. Area 62. I have updated the purchase page on my site offering suggestions on where to get a copy of the book. The later of the four links on the page has reasonable prices for the Silkworth Book now out of print. I decided to leave the pages that Bill Pitman authorized me to publish on silkworth.net - updating the purchase page only. Silkworth: The Little Doctor who Loved Drunks can be found on many online book stores. On this page: http://silkworth.net/silkworth_bio/silkworth_bio.html check out the fourth link, DealOz. I believe they have a couple of the books at relatively low prices. I read the book and found it to be an excellant read, though there was one section of the book that was supposed to have been written by Dr. Silkworth, but it was not his writing style and there were some descrepancies in the wording used. I don't have the book on hand at present, but I think it was a letter he was supposed to have written. After reading it, I was convinced it was not written by Dr. Silkworth. Dale Mitchel didn't really have a good reason for this when I emailed him about it. I believe Dale said he included it in the book because it was mixed in the material that Adelaide gave him access to when he was writing the book. Yours in service, Ever grateful, Jim M, http://www.silkworth.net/ IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6159. . . . . . . . . . . . Diary of Two Motorcyle Hobos From: Vicky Callaway . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/16/2009 9:19:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Here are telephone and fax numbers (and an email address) that might help: I have a first edition first printing - 1998 Published by Gratitude Press Canada Ottawa, Ontario Canada K2B7C6. Mine has telephone nos (613)820-8580 fax (613)820-5176 E-Mail: ellie@igs.net Printed by Beauregard Printers, Ottawa Canada 1998 Maufactured in Canada Canadian Cataloguing in Publication Data copyright Ellie van V, 1998 I don't know if the email address or telephone nos would be helpful to anyone and I am not on ebay but someone told me this book was a collector's item and I am not interested in selling it. I bought it at a state convention in Missouri probably when it first came out. Blessings vicki IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6160. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Silkworth: The Little Doctor who Loved Drunks From: Chuck Parkhurst . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/18/2009 12:43:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Members I would suggest that you check your local "serenity shops" where recovery related literature and shirts are sold. Most metro areas have several. I already owned a copy but purchased one in the last several months that I gave as a gift. They had several copies at under $20 In Service with Gratitude, Chuck Parkhurst IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6161. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Huxley on Bill W. as social architect From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/19/2009 3:34:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The Thomsen reference has been noted on this site before - but where did he get it from? Laurie A. ___________________________________ From: (baileygc23 at aol.com) An Unusual Instance of Governance by Tom White http://www.lewrockwell.com/white/white45.html Thomsen's bio includes a quotation from British writer Aldous Huxley, who was a friend of Bill's. Huxley said that Bill was "the greatest social architect of the 20th century." [note 3] Bill's official biography [note 4] quotes Thomsen on this point. As far as I know, there is no other source for this comment of Huxley's, and so I do not know the context in which it was made. Huxley's remark is, I think, usually understood as referring to Wilson and Smith's adaptation of the Oxford Group's [note 5] spiritual principles to the salvaging of alcoholics. That was indeed an extraordinary contribution, but I tend to think, rather, that Huxley was referring to Bill's superb organization (always with Dr. Bob's concurrence while he was alive) of the governance of AA THE AUTHOR: Tom White writes from Odessa, Texas. He is the author of Bill W., A Different Kind of Hero: The Story of Alcoholics Anonymous (2003). NOTES: 3. Bill W. by Robert Thomsen (Harper & Row, New York, 1975) page 340. 4. Pass It On: Bill Wilson and the A.A. Message (A.A. World Services, Inc., New York, 1984) page 368. 5. For much of the first four years of AA history, 1935-1939. the groups that were to become AA were actually elements in Oxford Group chapters in Akron and New York City. AA has always acknowledged that the spiritual principles of its recovery program came from the Oxford Group, although with certain new verbal formulations (e.g. the Twelve Steps), with a narrowing of focus to concentrate on the recovery of alcoholics (where the OG aimed at personal "change" at depth for all people), and with the innovations in structure I discuss in this article. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6162. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Paul M. from IL From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/19/2009 9:45:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Those wishing to learn more of Paul M. should read "It Works for Me" published in the Grapevine in September 2007 and reprinted in VOICES OF LONG-TERM SOBRIETY (AA Grapevine Inc. 2009), pp. 46-50. ___________________________ > To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > From: jim_011591@hotmail.com > Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 14:51:18 +0000 > Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Paul M. from IL > > Paul M. was Gary B.'s sponsor (the man who > wrote the personal note below which talks > about Paul's life and work). > > (Paul was also my great-great grand sponsor.) > > Paul M.'s first sponsor was Earl Treat > ("He Sold Himself Short") who founded A.A. in > Chicago. Earl's sponsor was Dr. Bob. > > > --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Custer" wrote: > > > > I received this today. God bless, Mike :) > > > > We lost another piece of AA history linking us > > to the founders. Paul Martin, 87 years old and > > 62 years sober. His sponsor was Tom Powers who > > helped Bill Wilson edit and publish the 12x12. > > Below is an official obituary that was in a > > local paper and a personal note from Gary B. > > a long time sober friend of Paul's. > > > > Rest in peace Paul, we will carry the torch! > > > > - - - - > > > > I returned home yesterday from Paul's wake and memorial service. This was the third time I have been privileged to not only be with Paul but many of his sponsees and friends. The first two times I was asked to chair (more like emcee) the celebrations of his 50 years and 60th years of sobriety. > > > > I met Paul 36 years ago when he spoke at the Wyatts meeting in Denver . He had been invited to speak there by a fellow known as Big Frank McKibbon. Frank was big and tough and a true Big Book Step Nazi who said that I should come hear Paul. I was surprised that Frank really looked up to anyone so I figured I better go. I left the meeting knowing that I had just met a man who really believed that the 12 Step program of AA was indeed "sufficient" for alcholics and anyone else who might be motivated to go to the lengths we need. > > > > 24 years ago I called Paul with my ass hanging out and jam on my face and asked him for help. I had not drank, but I was living a life of infidelity, dishonesty in all my affairs--my wife still says I was depressed during that time. Other than the depression that is a symptom of alcoholism I have no other experience with that. > > > > Paul and his group, the LaGrange group, firmly believe and practice repeated trips through the 12 steps. Each time they do that they swap 5th Steps with several other people, and are extremely diligent in making all the amends to remain current. I learned that the repeated process thru the 12 Steps in order relieves alcoholics of the depression, anxiety, fear and all those other things the sober alcoholic contends with. > > > > Paul always believed that guilt is the cause of depression. In fact, he was sure that Wilson would not have had his depressions if he would have kept his pecker in his pants. > > > > I last spent several hours with Paul this last Spring when he was in Bloomington, Indiana, undergoing a series of heavy radiation. His conversations were always about AA. He said he knew I don't really enjoy speaking on the circuit but asked me to continue to do it when I was asked so I could continue to share my experience with amends. > > > > Paul spent the last 3+ months in a retirement center/nursing home. I am told that this past August there was a young man taking a tour of the home with his parents. The parents were thinking of moving there. The lady giving the tour always spoke to each resident as they passed by. She would say "Hi Joe" or "Hi Mary" etc., but when they passed Paul she said "Hi Paul Martin." The group passed by and then the young man returned and asked Paul if he was the guy who knew Bill Wilson. Paul said he was and asked what he could do for the young man. The kid said he was 3 years sober and was having trouble getting along with his parents. Paul said "Do you have your amends list in your pocket?" > > > > Paul then showed the kid how to write an inventory, told him to come back when he had it completed (Paul gave him one week). The kid came back, took 5th Steps with Paul and a few of his friends. On September 10th the kid returned to see Paul and said he had made all the amends with his parents and things were getting better. > > > > All the years I knew Paul, I never once heard him change his mind about anything regarding the AA program--the Twelve Steps. I asked Matt A., a 50 year sponsee of Paul's if he ever heard Paul change his mind about any part of the program. Matt said he never heard Paul change his mind about a damn thing. > > > > Three weeks ago Bryan B took Paul up to Mayo Clinic for some tests. The doctor came into the room after two days of testing and before the doc could say anything Paul asked "How long do I have." The doctor looked down while looking for words when Paul said "I'm glad you didn't look at your watch." > > > > I'm sure someone will be telling more about his life. He spoke Spanish fluently.. He interviewed many South American political figures, both winners and losers of revolutions. He was a wonderful god father and friend. > > > > The wake and service were truly victory celebrations. > > > > Gary > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6163. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Huxley on Bill W. as social architect From: secondles . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/20/2009 8:10:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Although many writers over time, especially AA historians, have commented about Aldous Huxley's remark concerning Bill Wilson as being, "the greatest social architect of the 20th century", I believe that the word "social" has been too little emphasized. For whatever individual benefits we experience from the 12 steps, I believe the most significant overall contribution that Bill, and the other early collaborators, made in developing AA was the spirit of including all types of people, of whatever calling or description. He wisely focused on only one requirement for membership in the AA Fellowship...the desire to stop drinking. I believe that the basic social tenant... all are welcome... is what Huxley was talking about. It is what makes the AA program relevant today, and in the future. The focus in this post upon Bill White's essay about "governance" as well as reference to his book, BILL W., A DIFFERENT KIND OF HERO, is well taken. Therein, he distinguishes the difference between the word "government" meaning strict control, and "governance" meaning flexible and moral leading. That, too, is why the 12 steps remains popular today and is at the core of the Huxley statement. In the middle of Tom White's essay he speaks of , "...Wilson and Smith's adaptation of the Oxford Group's spiritual principles to the salvaging of alcoholics", and suggests it was the source for Bill's late-life spiritual commitment. I believe (with due support for Tom's essay) there is a flaw in assuming that the Oxford Group principles were especially important in influencing Bill as he developed the 12 steps. Also, there seems to be attention, or reference by some historians to the effect that Bill's brief association with the Oxford Group, via Ebby, was perhaps the most important stimulation for Bill to grow spiritually. I am in the process of publishing a book dealing with the significance of Vermont (both history and characteristics)in the develpment of Bill's personality which are usually not emphasized in books about Bill Wilson. The book by Susan Cheever, MY NAME IS BILL, is one however which describes certain things as "town meetings" being an influence related to our current Fellowship Meetings. My title is: ROGERS BURNHAM, The Original Man Behind Bill W, and, THE SIGNIFICANCE OF "VERMONT" IN ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS HISTORY. (I knew "Rog" very well when he lived with my family in Vermont for a three-year period, 1932-34.) In the book I discuss how Bill's marriage into the Burnham family was his introduction to the Swedenborgian religion which was the Burnham's religion. Those religious tenants I believe were much more influential in Bill's spiritual awakening than anything he experienced via the Oxford Group and I discuss the connection of the Swedenborgian beliefs with specific items in the 12 steps. To my knowledge, Bill never attributed his Vermont background as being related to his development of the 12 Steps, but there is reson to indicate it was quite significant for both him and for Dr. Bob. Perhaps we could discuss this more on this AAHL web. Les C. Colorado Springs, CO IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6164. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Huxley on Bill W. as social architect From: Peter Tippett . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/19/2009 2:45:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I believe the quote is also in Life Magazine's "100 most Influential People of the 20th Century" where Bill is so recognized. _______________________________ From: (baileygc23 at aol.com) An Unusual Instance of Governance by Tom White http://www.lewrockw ell.com/white/ white45.html Thomsen's bio includes a quotation from British writer Aldous Huxley, who was a friend of Bill's. Huxley said that Bill was "the greatest social architect of the 20th century." [note 3] NOTE 3: Bill W. by Robert Thomsen (Harper & Row, New York, 1975) page 340. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6165. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Huxley on Bill W. as social architect From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/21/2009 9:57:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Thomsen was close to Bill W, and may have heard Huxley making the statement. I am trying to find my AA today and see if the statement is in the issue. But it seems that the statement is not traceable further back than to Thomsen. I hope there is a more definite source. Let us remember one important thing that is made clear by Bill W's association with Huxley. No one is required to follow any kind of conventional religiosity in order to work the twelve steps and get sober and serene in Alcoholics Anonymous. And this is something that is emphasized as well in Bill W's statements to the psychiatrists and to the National Catholic Clergy Council: ** AA is not a Religious organization; ** There is no dogma. ** The one hierological proposition is a power greater than one's self. ** Even this concept is forced on no one. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6166. . . . . . . . . . . . Cecil Rose, When Man Listens, and history study groups From: mrpetesplace . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/20/2009 2:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII AAStuff has just added the full text of "When Man Listens" by Cecil Rose. On http://aastuff.com/ see page http://aastuff.com/whenmanlistens.htm Cecil Rose, When Man Listens (New York: Oxford University Press, 1937). Dedicated "to the Oxford Group, the growing army of men and women who are proving afresh for our generation that 'When man listens, God speaks; when man obeys, God works.'" There is so much big book in the first chapter alone. In some ways it feels like a blue print for the AA Program. We are hoping to find study groups going on or starting up, which use AA history books or Oxford Group books. Thank you... Peter AAStuff.com - - - - From Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) We have a group which meets every Thursday evening in Milford, Indiana -- it is not labelled as an AA group, although most of the people who attend are AA members. The group has been going on quite successfully for several years now. As a group we have read Emmet Fox's "Sermon on the Mount," Ernie Kurtz's "Shame and Guilt," Glenn F. Chesnut's "Changed by Grace" and "God and Spirituality," etc., etc., and are currently reading William James's "Varieties of Religious Experience." People drive an hour or more from all over that part of northern Indiana to attend, even in the midst of the Hoosier winter snows. I had a cougar run across the road in front of my car one evening last winter while on the way to the meeting. Frank N., Submarine Bill C., John Barleycorn (http://hindsfoot.org/essays.html ), his pigeon Jerry, Karen Z., Liz, and so on give us a lot of good discussion. To be frank, even we were a little surprised by how well it has worked and how many years we've been going. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6167. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA and Oxford Group history study groups From: Kevin Short . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/21/2009 6:46:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII We have a similar group each Saturday morning in our home, using the book "How To Listen To God" by Wally P. and James Houck. Some of the attendees are AA members, but it is not an AA group. We use the HTLTG book and Oxford Group literature in our meeting. Over the past few years I have put together a library of many Oxford Group books and spiritual material from the founding days of A.A. I find something "borrowed" by the Big Book in nearly every piece of OG literature I read. Kevin S. (Windham, New Hampshire) - - - - mrpetesplace wrote: > AAStuff has just added the full text of "When > Man Listens" by Cecil Rose. > > On http://aastuff.com/ see page > > http://aastuff.com/whenmanlistens.htm > > There is so much big book in the first chapter > alone. In some ways it feels like a blue print > for the AA Program. > > We are hoping to find study groups going on or > starting up, which use AA history books or Oxford > Group books. > > Thank you... Peter > AAStuff.com > > - - - - > > >From Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) > > We have a group which meets every Thursday > evening in Milford, Indiana -- it is not > labelled as an AA group, although most of > the people who attend are AA members. > > The group has been going on quite successfully > for several years now. As a group we have read > Emmet Fox's "Sermon on the Mount," Ernie Kurtz's > "Shame and Guilt," Ralph Pfau (Father John Doe) > "Sobriety and Beyond," Glenn F. Chesnut's "Changed > by Grace" and "God and Spirituality," etc., etc., > and are currently reading William James's > "Varieties of Religious Experience." > > We look mainly at the kind of books listed on > Bishop's List of Fifty Books Tracing AA's History > http://hindsfoot.org/fiftybk.html > http://ehomegroup.org/AA/TheBishopOfBooks.htm > > People drive an hour or more from all over that > part of northern Indiana to attend, even in > the midst of the Hoosier winter snows. I had > a cougar run across the road in front of my car > one evening last winter while on the way to the > meeting. > > Frank N., Submarine Bill C., John Barleycorn > (http://hindsfoot.org/essays.html ), his pigeon > Jerry, Karen Z., Liz, and so on give us a lot > of good discussion. > > To be frank, even we were a little surprised by > how well it has worked and how many years we've > been going. > > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6168. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Huxley on Bill W. as social architect From: Ernest Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/22/2009 1:12:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII On Alcoholics Anonymous and ”social,“ I do not believe there has ever been a more insightful and complete treatment than Robin Room's as it appears on pp. 167-187 of Barbara S. McCrady and William R. Miller (eds.), Research on Alcoholics Anonymous: Opportunities and Alternatives. New Brunswick, NJ: Rutgers Center of Alcohol Studies, 1993. Just that one article makes worthwhile any effort in getting this too overlooked book that contains many seminal pieces later developed elsewhere. ernie kurtz On Dec 20, 2009, at 8:10 PM, secondles wrote: > Although many writers over time, especially AA historians, have > commented about Aldous Huxley's remark concerning Bill Wilson as > being, "the greatest social architect of the 20th century", I > believe that the word "social" has been too little emphasized. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6169. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Huxley on Bill W. as social architect From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/22/2009 12:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In response to Message 6165 from Baileygc23@aol.com which asserted that "AA is not a Religious organization; there is no dogma. The one theological proposition is a power greater than one's self. Even this concept is forced on no one." http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/6165 - - - - In response to that statement, here is a repeat posting of message #5095 originally posted on July 10, 2008: Regrettably there is much repeated in AA that has no basis in fact. Early AA was very "pro religion" but it never attempted to project itself as a religion. When too few words are cited it is usually at the expense of context. And I don't agree at all with the context you are portraying. This is rather long reply since you are seeking citations. From my own investigations it seems that attempts to draw a distinction between the words "spiritual" and "religious" are flawed and sophomoric. The two words can be used interchangeably based on just about any dictionary. Do a search on the internet for the text string "definition of spiritual." Almost every return that derives from a dictionary will define the word "spiritual" as "religious" or "of religion" or "of the soul" (spirit). Attempts to draw a contrasting distinction between the two words rest far more in the secularism of contemporary AA rather than in AA's historical roots. Many of AA's early historical friends were members of the clergy and their influence was profound. Bill W often stated that AA's two best friends were medicine and religion. Over the past two decades the rise of secularism has spawned the notion of the words "religion" or "religious" to almost be pejoratives. I find this very disturbing. Also be careful to not be too selective in the sparse citing of Bill W and the Big Book -- both cite many favorable descriptions of "religion" or "religious." For example: From Bill W's address to the 1960 National Clergy Conference On Alcoholism: (1) "Excellencies and Friends: My thanks to Father Ray for his introduction. He has us off to an appropriate start. This hour with you is most meaningful to me and I trust it will be to you and to A.A. as a whole. Every thoughtful A.A. realizes that the divine grace, which has always flowed through the Church, is the ultimate foundation on which AA rests. Our spiritual origins are Christian ..." (2) "... It now occurs to me that it may be profitable if we were to review the origins of AA; to take a look at some of its underlying mechanisms -- an interior look as it were. Of course I am here reflecting my own views, and some of these are bound to be speculative. At any rate, here they are. Though AA roots are in the centuries-old Christian community, there seems little doubt that in an immediate sense our fellowship began in the office of the much-respected Dr. Carl Jung of Zurich ..." (3) "... Now a final thought. Many a non-alcoholic clergyman asks these questions about Alcoholics Anonymous: "Why do clergymen so often fail with alcoholics, when AA so often succeeds? Is it possible that the grace of AA is superior to that of the Church? Is Alcoholics Anonymous a new religion, a competitor of the Church? If these misgivings had real substance, they would be serious indeed. But, as I have already indicated, Alcoholics Anonymous cannot in the least be regarded as a new religion. Our Twelve Steps have no theological content, except that which speaks of "God as we understand Him." This means that each individual AA member may define God according to whatever faith or creed he may have. Therefore there isn't the slightest interference with the religious views of any of our membership. The rest of the Twelve Steps define moral attitudes and helpful practices, all of them precisely Christian in character. Therefore, as far as they go, the Steps are good Christianity; indeed they are good Catholicism, something which Catholic writers have affirmed more than once. Neither does AA exert the slightest religious authority over its members: No one is compelled to believe anything. No one is compelled to meet membership conditions. No one is obliged to pay anything. Therefore we have no system of authority, spiritual or temporal, that is comparable to or in the least competitive with the Church. At the center of our society we have a Board of Trustees. This body is accountable yearly to a Conference of elected Delegates. These Delegates represent the conscience and desire of AA as regards functional or service matters. Our Tradition contains an emphatic injunction that these Trustees may never constitute themselves as a government -- they are to merely provide certain services that enable AA as a whole to function. The same principles apply at our group and area level. Dr. Bob, my co-partner, had his own religious views. For whatever they may be worth, I have my own. But both of us have gone heavily on record to the effect that these personal views and preferences can never under any conditions be injected into the AA program as a working part of it. AA is a sort of spiritual kindergarten, but that is all. Never could it be called a religion. Nor should any clergyman, because he does not happen to be a channel of grace to alcoholics, feel that he or his Church is lacking in grace. No real question of grace is involved at all -- it is just a question of who can best transmit God's abundance. It so happens that we who have suffered alcoholism, we who can identify so deeply with other sufferers, are the ones usually best suited for this particular work. Certainly no clergyman ought to feel any inferiority just because he himself is not an alcoholic! Then, as I have already emphasized, AA has actually derived all of its principles, directly or indirectly, from the Church. Ours, gentlemen, is a debt of gratitude far beyond any ability of mine to express. On behalf of members everywhere, I give you our deepest thanks for the warm understanding and the wonderful co-operation that you have everywhere afforded us. Please also have my gratitude for the privilege of being with you this morning. This is an hour that I shall remember always ..." From the Q&A that followed Bill's address: (4) "... When these Steps were shown to my friends, their reactions were quite mixed indeed. Some argued that six steps had worked fine, so why twelve? From our agnostic contingent there were loud cries of too much "God." Others objected to an expression, which I had included which suggested getting on one's knees while in prayer. I heavily resisted these objections for months. But finally did take out my statement about a suitable prayerful posture and I finally went along with that now tremendously important expression, "God as we understand Him" -- this expression having been coined, I think, by one of our former atheist members. This was indeed a ten-strike. That one has since enabled thousands to join AA who would have otherwise gone away. It enabled people of fine religious training and those of none at all to associate freely and to work together. It made one's religion the business of the AA member himself and not that of his society. That AA's Twelve Steps have since been in such high esteem by the Church, that members of the Jesuit Order have repeatedly drawn attention to the similarity between them and the Ignatian Exercises, is a matter for our great wonder and gratitude indeed ..." (5) From the Foreword to the Second Edition Big Book: "... Another reason for the wide acceptance of A.A. was the ministration of friends -- friends in medicine, religion, and the press, together with innumerable others who became our able and persistent advocates. Without such support, A.A. could have made only the slowest progress. Some of the recommendations of A.A.'s early medical and religious friends will be found further on in this book. Alcoholics Anonymous is not a religious organization. Neither does A.A. take any particular medical point of view, though we cooperate widely with the men of medicine as well as with the men of religion. Alcohol being no respecter of persons, we are an accurate cross section of America, and in distant lands, the same democratic evening-up process is now going on. By personal religious affiliation, we include Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Hindus, and a sprinkling of Moslems and Buddhists. More than 15% of us are women ..." (6) From Bill's Story "... The door opened and he stood there, fresh-skinned and glowing. There was something about his eyes. He was inexplicably different. What had happened? I pushed a drink across the table. He refused it. Disappointed but curious, I wondered what had got into the fellow. He wasn't himself. "Come, what's this all about?" I queried. He looked straight at me. Simply, but smilingly, he said, "I've got religion ..." (7) From We Agnostics "... We, who have traveled this dubious path, beg you to lay aside prejudice, even against organized religion. We have learned that whatever the human frailties of various faiths may be, those faiths have given purpose and direction to millions. People of faith have a logical idea of what life is all about. Actually, we used to have no reasonable conception whatever. We used to amuse ourselves by cynically dissecting spiritual beliefs and practices when we might have observed that many spiritually-minded persons of all races, colors, and creeds were demon- strating a degree of stability, happiness and usefulness which we should have sought ourselves ..." (8) From Into Action "... We must be entirely honest with somebody if we expect to live long or happily in this world. Rightly and naturally, we think well before we choose the person or persons with whom to take this intimate and confidential step. Those of us belonging to a religious denomination which requires confession must, and of course, will want to go to the properly appointed authority whose duty it is to receive it. Though we have no religious connection, we may still do well to talk with someone ordained by an established religion. We often find such a person quick to see and understand our problem. Of course, we sometimes encounter people who do not understand alcoholics ..." "... If circumstances warrant, we ask our wives or friends to join us in morning meditation. If we belong to a religious denomination which requires a definite morning devotion, we attend to that also. If not members of religious bodies, we sometimes select and memorize a few set prayers which emphasize the principles we have been discussing. There are many helpful books also. Suggestions about these may be obtained from one's priest, minister, or rabbi. Be quick to see where religious people are right. Make use of what they offer ..." (9) From Working With Others "... Your prospect may belong to a religious denomination. His religious education and training may be far superior to yours. In that case he is going to wonder how you can add anything to what he already knows. But he will be curious to learn why his own convictions have not worked and why yours seem to work so well. He may be an example of the truth that faith alone is insufficient. To be vital, faith must be accompanied by self sacrifice and unselfish, constructive action. Let him see that you are not there to instruct him in religion. Admit that he probably knows more about it than you do, but call to his attention the fact that however deep his faith and knowledge, he could not have applied it or he would not drink. Perhaps your story will help him see where he has failed to practice the very precepts he knows so well. We represent no particular faith or denomination. We are dealing only with general principles common to most denominations ..." (10) From The Family Afterward "... Alcoholics who have derided religious people will be helped by such contacts. Being possessed of a spiritual experience, the alcoholic will find he has much in common with these people, though he may differ with them on many matters. If he does not argue about religion, he will make new friends and is sure to find new avenues of usefulness and pleasure. He and his family can be a bright spot in such congregations. He may bring new hope and new courage to many a priest, minister, or rabbi, who gives his all to minister to our troubled world. We intend the foregoing as a helpful suggestion only. So far as we are concerned, there is nothing obligatory about it. As non-denominational people, we cannot make up others' minds for them. Each individual should consult his own conscience ..." ======== In just about every mention of "not religious" it seems that Bill's context was that AA is not affiliated with any specific religious denomination and matters of religion are solely up to each individual member to define for themselves -- Bill very definitely was not attempting to distance himself from religion. Two more citations that might be interesting concerning the Oxford Group and its influence on the principles embodied in the Steps. In a July 14, 1949 letter to the Rev Sam Shoemaker Bill W wrote "So far as I am concerned, and Dr Smith too, the Oxford Group seeded AA. It was our spiritual wellspring at the beginning." In AA Comes of Age (pg 39) Bill also wrote: "Early AA got its ideas of self-examination, acknowledgment of character defects, restitution for harm done and working with others straight from the Oxford Groups and directly from Sam Shoemaker their former leader in America and from nowhere else." Cheers Arthur - - - - Message 6165 from Baileygc23@aol.com Subject: Re: Huxley on Bill W. as social architect http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/6165 Thomsen was close to Bill W, and may have heard Huxley making the statement. I am trying to find my AA today and see if the statement is in the issue. But it seems that the statement is not traceable further back than to Thomsen. I hope there is a more definite source. Let us remember one important thing that is made clear by Bill W's association with Huxley. No one is required to follow any kind of conventional religiosity in order to work the twelve steps and get sober and serene in Alcoholics Anonymous. And this is something that is emphasized as well in Bill W's statements to the psychiatrists and to the National Catholic Clergy Council: ** AA is not a Religious organization; ** There is no dogma. ** The one theological proposition is a power greater than one's self. ** Even this concept is forced on no one. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6170. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Wilson, Lois copyright Ellie van V., 1998 All rights reserved From: diazeztone . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/22/2009 12:07:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The Lois Wilson estate sued Ellie V and won to stop having the book published (Gratitude Press). It was withdrawn from publication and most remaining copies destroyed. Ellie V published without consent. I had the legal document on my computer for the longest period but cannot find it now. I have had the book on my beginners recommended book page http://aabibliography.com/beginnersbooks.htm but really should remove that. I am sure the Wilson estate does not want electronic copies floating around since they successfully stopped the printed versions. LD Pierce www.aabibliography.com eztone at hotmail - - - - Some information about this from a Past Delegate: "I was fortunate enough to have had one of Lois's originals that my friend XXXX XXXX, Panel ## Area 20, Northern Illinois, sent to me before her passing. She ... was my service sponsor. I sent my copy to Ellie back in '98 for her to peruse and then she was taken to court in Canada by Stepping Stones and lost. Sooo, the copy I had was confiscated by the foundation and all I got back was apologies from Ellie. Ellie and I lost touch with one another in early 2003 and I have no idea where she is today." - - - - An email sent to this Past Delegate by a figure well known in AA historical circles (NOT the moderator of the AAHistoryLovers): Hi H____, Well, you SOUND sane; so maybe you can help me understand these hoarding-like behaviors about "the only" or "the first" or "so-and-so's copy" -- not to mention the greed-driven attempts to disallow copying or re-publication or whatever might make any object of any real interest something preciously esoteric and difficult of access? Perhaps you understand better than I: What in what's-His-name's Name do such fixations have to do with the Twelve Steps or, in fact, with any compassion or love or generosity-of-spirit or honesty or "carrying the message" or sobriety or -- pardon the expression -- "spirituality" of whatever ilk? For such machinations we get sober?! God save Alcoholics Anonymous from its "friends." - - - - IN PREVIOUSLY POSTED MESSAGES THE FOLLOWING APPEARED: --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Ernest Kurtz wrote (kurtzern at umich.edu) > > Any attorneys familiar with copyright law -- especially the most > recent changes and ongoing discussions -- available out there, > please? If you are willing, please contact me off-list? As a > multiply copyrighted author as this electronic age comes into being, I > find things too confusing for this legal mere layperson. > > Thank you. > > ernie kurtz > (kurtzern at umich.edu) > > - - - - > > From Glenn C., the moderator > > The seven known used copies of > Diary of Two Motorcycle Hobos, by Bill and > Lois Wilson, in the version edited by > Ellie van V. (Ottowa: Gratitude Press, 1998) > which are currently for sale are selling for: > > US$ 58.88, 60.00, 81.55, 175.00, 379.95, > 500.00, and 1,250.00 > > - - - - > > On Dec 13, 2009, at 11:06 PM, Jim M wrote: > > > This subject title is also known as "Diary of Two Motorcycle Hobos." > > The Copyright holder is clearly stated in the subject line and in > > the file I have on hand, however, I received a disturbing email from > > the Director, Annah Perch, of the Stepping Stones Foundation, ready > > to act on behalf of the Copyright holder. > > > > Does anyone here on AAHistoryLovers know how to get in touch with > > the Copyright holder, Ellie van V.? I wish to open a direct line of > > communication with Ellie van V. to talk with her about her title > > mentioned above. > > > > I believe this title is an important part of pre AA history with a > > glimpse into the lives of our would be cofounders of Alcoholics > > Anonymous and Al-anon which can be viewed on this page: http://www.silkworth.net/freestuff.html > > . Any information you can provide would be of great assistance. Your > > comments on the above are also welcomed and will be of great help to > > me in my making the right decision. > > > > If you wish, you can contact me directly by sending an email to: > > > > "Jim M" > > (silkworthdotnet at yahoo.com) > > > > I thank you for your continued support for the service silkworth.net > > provides. > > > > Yours in service, > > Ever greatful, > > Jim M, > > http://www.silkworth.net/ > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6171. . . . . . . . . . . . More on Huxley etc From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/22/2009 7:16:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A letter from Huxley to Dr Humphry Osmond from 740 North Kings Road, Los Angeles 46. Dated 2 March 1954: Dear Humphry ... Three interesting things have turned up recently (following publication of Doors of Perception - one about a woman who experienced "a transfiguration of the outer world during her various pregnancies", which Huxley surmises might have been caused by "a temporary upset in the sugar supply to the brain"; another from someone in Seattle who "produced extraordinary changes in consciousness by fasting and going without sleep", and) ... Another stranger writes from Los Angeles. He is an ex-alcoholic (sic), who had ecstatic experiences in his early days of alcoholism and insists, in spite of what the Freudians may say, that the longing for ecstasy is a very strong motive in many alcoholics. He is a friend of Indians, knows some who have taken peyote but had a terrifying experience, and hints at knowing or being able to find out a good deal about the relationship between peyotism and alcoholism among Indians. I haven't seen this man, and doubt if we shall have time to do so before our departure. But (I hope you don't mind!) I have asked him to put down his information on paper and send it to you. I think it might be of considerable value. He suggests that it might be very interesting to try the effect of mescalin on alcoholics, past and present. And I think that, if your research project gets started (or even if it doesn't), this might be a fruitful thing to do..." ("Letters of Aldous Huxley", op cit). 1.) Who was Osmond? 2.) Is this correspondence with the LA alcoholic preserved in any archive? 3.) What was the research project alluded to? 4.) Did the mescalin experiment with alcoholics ever happen? Re Les C.'s reference to Lois's Swedenborgian roots, I recall reading somewhere that Lois attended a Quaker school in New York and that after Bill died there was a Quaker-style meeting at Stepping Stones to celebrate his life. Apropos - Correspondence between Bill W. and Robert C., March 1950: "Dear Bill, I've been a member of AA for the past three years and doing a fairly good job. In the meantime I've become interested in the Society of Friends (Quakers) and I seem to see a great kinship between the two movements. The Way of Life (sic) of both movements seems to fit so well into each other that I have become greatly interested in knowing just how much Quakerism effected not only the foundation of AA, but also what part, if any, it has played to date." Bill's reply: "Dear Robert C., The really amazing fact about Alcoholics Anonymous, and something I've never been able to comprehend, is that all religions see in our program a resemblance to themselves. For example, Catholic theologians declare our Twelve Points to be in exact accord with their Ignatian Exercises for Retreat, and though our book reeks of sin, sickness and death, the Christian Science Monitor has often praised it editorially. And so it goes. Now looking through Quaker eyes you, too, see us favorably. What happy circumstances these! Though the structure of our AA society was designed only by experience and what grace God might have given us, I must confess that in this aspect we do bear a strong resemblance to the Quakers. We, too, speak of a group conscience. Our leadership is rotating. We have no paid preachers and once the early members erected the basic principles, the authority seems to flow up from the mass instead of down through the top. I can assure you that I did not create this state of affairs, I merely reflected what had already appeared out of the groups." From letters in the AA archives at GSO, New York, part of which was reproduced in "As Bill Sees It" (page 116). Bill was widely read in spiritual and religious matters, but I wonder if he had any direct experience of Quaker faith and practice? Laurie A. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6172. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Silkworth: The Little Doctor who Loved Drunks From: Chuck Parkhurst . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/21/2009 11:46:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have attempted to order additional copies of "The Little Doctor Who Loved Drunks" online. Several of the sites that are offering it for sale will allow one to go through the ordering process only to be informed at the conclusion that the book is on backorder or unavailable. That likely means they not be able to supply the book. I sent an email to AAHL a few days ago stating that the best place to find this book at a reasonable cost would be local "serenity shops" in larger metro areas, and this still seems to me the best route. I have found several copies at stores like this in the metro Phoenix area. In Service with Gratitude, Chuck Parkhurst IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6173. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: Huxley on Bill W. as social architect From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/22/2009 10:22:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Message #6169 from "Arthur S" (arthur.s at live.com) http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/6169 was an extremely lengthy criticism of me for saying, in Message 6165 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/6165 "AA is not a Religious organization; there is no dogma. The one theological proposition is a power greater than one's self. Even this concept is forced on no one." That was a quote from Bill Wilson. I am sorry if, in Arthur's opinion, Bill Wilson got the AA position all wrong. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6174. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: More on Huxley etc From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/22/2009 11:34:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The original message #6171 from jenny andrews (jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com) was about "a letter from Huxley to Dr Humphry Osmond," and Laurie asked: "Who was Osmond?" Osmond was one of the people who were into the LSD experiments at that time. His partners published papers on the subject. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humphry_Osmond IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6175. . . . . . . . . . . . Swedenborgianism and the Burnham family''s religious beliefs From: LES COLE . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/22/2009 5:24:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII As I discuss more fully in my book, Bill Wilson personally felt a need for friendship all of his life. Lois was similarly focused on others, and comforting others was a fundamental part of her personality too. We all, most likely, have felt the need for group support and Fellowship meetings attest to this. All of the Burnhams demonstrated the spirit of accepting others...whatever their nature or flaws. They were "comfortable" with group activity. As I recently became more familiar with what the Swedenborgian religion was all about, and it is not "Quaker" but it seems rather similar, I for the first time realized that the Burnham family actually had a religious orientation. The years that I knew Rog, he never expressed any religious views or sought to influence others with his own religious background. However, the Burnham's moral outlook fit right in with Bill's social strivings early in his youth and throughout his life. It looks to me, that Bill's spiritual growth, which developed during his adult years, was directly inspired by/in the "Burnham" environment as he struggled with his years of alcoholism while married to Lois ... and ... having a close relationship with all the other brothers and sisters-in-law. That base, in my view, exceeded any influence by the brief exposure to the Oxford Group principles just before Bill developed the AA program. Les C Colorado Springs, Colorado IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6176. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Huxley on Bill W. as social architect From: Jon Markle . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/22/2009 2:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Back in the day, so to speak, perhaps there is some basis to reason and conclude that are mostly accurate, about no difference between "religion" and "spiritual". But, I have my sincere doubts about such an observation, having had some passing study of our colorful history (in AA) through this group. Historical facts can be cited by anyone to justify and support just about any idea. But, that does not make it so. However, today, it cannot be said that "religion" and "spiritual" are one in the same. They are most decidedly NOT. And this is the world . . . the NOW . . . that interests me most. We have resources and understanding today that the drunks did not have back then. Dare I say, better? "More will be revealed". Living in the past world will not help us grow. We must learn from their mistakes. If religion offered us the answer we sought to have the desire to drink removed, we would not need AA. Fact is, it didn't work. And there's the crux. No one (I hope) wants religious interference in AA, I think. That would indeed kill us all, I'm afraid. And attempts to justify such moves, by citing "history" . . . real and imagined, are very damaging, I think. And make AA into a thing that becomes both scary and non-productive. Just like church could not get me sober, neither could an AA meeting that sounds like church. Jon Markle Raleigh 9/9/82 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6177. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Swedenborgianism and the Burnham family''s religious beliefs From: glennccc . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/28/2009 3:36:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There were a lot of Swedenborgians running around in Bill Wilson's life and reading. Remember that William James was brought up as a Swedenborgian. James' Varieties of Religious Experience had an enormous influence on Bill Wilson's ideas about religion and spirituality right after he first got sober. And we must also remember that one of William James' main points in that book -- the thing that did more than anything else to make it popular and widely read -- was James' demonstration that only a small percentage of human beings could be helped by the kind of revivalistic religion that talked about undergoing "conversion" by being "born again" in a highly emotional conversion experience. You had to be of a certain kind of psychological type to be helped that way, James said: people who were highly susceptible to post-hypnotic suggestion, because the revival sermons were designed to have a powerfully hynoptic appeal. It is true that James talked about people who had visions where the heavens seemed to open, in Lecture III of the Varieties of Religious Experience (compare Bill W.'s white light experience), but we should note, for example: He talked in Lecture IV about "The Religion of Healthy-Mindedness," by which he meant the kind of approach which was used by Emmet Fox and James Allen and other similar NEW THOUGHT authors, who ALSO affected many early AA people very strongly, and which was very different from the approach taken by the revivalist preachers and the people who were seeking highly emotional "conversion experiences." That is because there is another subset of the population which is of a psychological type where the New Thought approach works better than any of the others. Contemporary spiritual writers who take a version of the NEW THOUGHT approach include Louise Hay, Wayne Dyer, Marianne Williamson, and the people associated with A Course in Miracles. But again, this spiritual approach isn't going to work for everyone either. What I have long been curious about is the question of whether and how William James' Swedenborgian background might have helped him to understand some of these varieties of spiritual experience, and also whether there might not be some undercurrent in James' thought which resonated in a positive way with the Swedenborgian influence which Bill W. had experienced through his years of involvement with Lois and her family. So Les, I am looking forward to seeing the results of your research, and hope very much that you can illuminate us all further about the possible Swedenborgian influences on Bill Wilson's ideas. Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6178. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Huxley on Bill W. as social architect From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/28/2009 9:25:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Ernest Kurtz comments In Not God page 359, notes to pages 136-138: 3. ... citable is Laura Huxley (Los Angles Ca) to Wilson, 26 February 1964, replying to Wilson's note of condolence at Aldous's death: "Do you know the profound admiration and affection that Aldous had for you? When he described you, he would say 'a modern saint.'" Note: Turning Bill Wilson into a saint, as Huxley does above, is not the answer, but Aldous Huxley's admiration is there. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6179. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Silkworth: The Little Doctor who Loved Drunks From: octoberbabye . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/25/2009 7:46:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In case of necessity, it is good to remember that one can go to the library and request a copy of an out-of-print from interlibrary loan. I understand that you want to own a copy, but this might work for the time that you want to use it. --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen" wrote: > > I apologize in advance if this is an inappropriate > topic for this thread but I have exhausted my > resources looking for a copy of > > Dale Mitchel, "Silkworth: The Little Doctor > Who Loved Drunks: The Biography of William > Duncan Silkworth, M.D." (Center City, Minnesota: > Hazelden, 2002). > > Aside from paying the $61 to $200 which Amazon > and http://www.abebooks.com/ are asking. > > Could someone email me if they have a copy they > could lend me? My email address is: > > "Stephen" > (saberle at comcast.net) > > I will be happy to pay shipping or if you are > local in New Jersey, I could meet you at a > meeting of your choice. > > Thanks in advance > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6180. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: More on Huxley etc. -- the term ex-alcoholic From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/22/2009 7:15:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII At 06:16 12/22/2009, Laurie Andrews quotes Aldous Huxley: "Another stranger writes from Los Angeles. He is an ex-alcoholic (sic), who had ecstatic experiences in his early days of alcoholism and insists ...." I would note that the First Edition of our Big Book used the term "ex-alcoholic" six times, on pp. 28, 30, 271, 272, and 330, and it wasn't until the 11th Printing in 1947 that it was changed. I suspect the term was commonly used then. Tommy H in Baton Rouge IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6181. . . . . . . . . . . . Buddhism and AA From: Michael . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/24/2009 3:33:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I just finished reading "One Breath at a Time, Buddhism and the Twelve Steps," by Kevin Griffin. What does AA history tell us about other connections between AA and Buddhism in the past? Is there any evidence for a direct influence of Buddhist ideas on AA during the earliest period? Thanks, and a sober and Happy Christmas to all. Michael - - - - From the moderator: Richmond Walker (author of Twenty-Four Hours a Day) was influenced to a certain degree by ideas from the Hindu religious tradition (note the quote at the beginning of the little black book as merely one example). And he in turn picked this up from his education at Williams College where the tradition of the New England Transcentalists was still alive, as one can see by looking at their curriculum and where and how their faculty were educated. When "translated" into modern American religious language, it is not always easy to tell the difference between Hinduism and Buddhism. Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6182. . . . . . . . . . . . Recovery rates From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/25/2009 6:33:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "... the large number of recoveries ... Of alcoholics who came to AA and really tried 50 per cent got sober at once and remained that way; 25 per cent sobered up after some relapse, and among the remainder, those who stayed with AA showed improvement. Other thousands came to a few AA meetings and at first decided that they didn't want the program. But great numbers of these - about two out of three - began to return as time passed." (Foreword, second edition Bib Book, 1955). Often quoted as evidence of superior recovery rates in the pioneering days. Yet if half those who "really tried" got sober straight away, it follows that the other half - who also really tried - didn't! Not so impressive after all perhaps. And how mdo we square that with chapter five's claim that "Raely have we seen a person fail ..." In any case, how did AA in 1955 arrive at these figures? Was it, as I suspect, merely anecdotal impressions, or were statistics collected? When did Conference first start organising its periodic membership surveys? - - - - From the moderator: see "ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS (AA) RECOVERY OUTCOME RATES: Contemporary Myth and Misinterpretation" by Arthur S. (Arlington, TX), Tom E. (Wappingers Falls, NY), and Glenn C. (South Bend, IN). http://hindsfoot.org/recout01.pdf if you want the article as an Adobe Acrobat PDF file http://hindsfoot.org/recout01.doc if you would prefer to read it as an MS Word DOC file Glenn C. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6183. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA and Oxford Group history study groups From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/22/2009 4:39:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Bill W went to great lengths to dissociate AA from the Oxford Group and its practices, and to try to make AA available worldwide to any and all. It is now available to people who might be a mild surprise to him and his age. Are some of our historians and old-timers trying to turn AA back into the Oxford group and thereby into a Protestant sect which would exclude everybody except for a few conservative evangelical Bible quoters? - - - - From: John Barton (jax760 at yahoo.com) The Big Book and Twelve and Twelve contain a fair amount of "theological propositions". Both books espouse the Christian-Judeo theology of the Bible with the frequent use of such terms as "Father, Creator, Maker, Father of Light who presides over us all, "Him", "He" etc. There is also significant use of bible quotes throughout both texts such as "Thy will be done", "The Father doeth the works", "Faith without works is dead" and many more too numerous and hopefully not necessary to quote here. As Nell Wing said Bill's greatest ability was that of a "synthesizer". Taking that which already existed from Medicine and Religion and adapting it to our special use. Whether or not AA is Spiritual, Religious, both, neither and whether of not our twelve steps constitute "dogma" or "doctrine" would seem to be outside issues, best left to the experts in the fields of sociology and anthropology. I would also point out that just because AA says ......"xyz"..... or Bill W. said ..."abc".... doesn't necessarily make it so. God Bless IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 6184. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Swedenborgianism and the Burnham family''s religious beliefs From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/28/2009 4:37:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A small Swedenborgian factoid: On January 24, 1918, spurred by rumor that Bill W might soon go overseas, he and Lois were married at the Swedenborgian Church of the New Jerusalem in Brooklyn, NY. The wedding date was originally scheduled for February 1. Lois' brother Rogers Burnham was best man (he was also reputed to be good friends with Bill). Cheers Arthur - - - - From the moderator: A well-known midwestern AA archivist and historian, whom I have always deeply admired, visited Lois Wilson not long before her death. She asked what Lois' own religious beliefs were, and was told that she "is a Swedenborgian." What struck this archivist was the use of the present tense: not "was" a Swedenborgian but "is" a Swedenborgian. The archivist gave profuse thanks for being allowed to visit Lois and talk with her, and asked if there was anything she could do to return the favor. She was told "please help start a good archives in Akron in connection with Dr. Bob's house." But that is a further story. Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) 1: http://www.a-1associates.com/westbalto/HISTORY_PAGE/Authors.htm#Florence%20Rankin 2: http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=Silkworth&GScid=99997&GRid=11339789& 3: http://improveourconsciouscontact.blogspot.com/2008/03/march-question-by-gail-dewitt.html 4: http://news.prnewswire.com/DisplayReleaseContent.aspx?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/03-09-2009/0004985249&EDATE= 5: http://www.fathermartinsashley.com/interior.php?section=AboutAshley&subsection=Bio 6: http://knol.google.com/k/loran-archer/a-model-of-access-to-and-continuance-in/33nxpux3imfog/4 7: http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9C00E1D61130E132A2575BC1A9609C946397D6CF 8: http://www.auctiva.com/hostedimages/showimage.aspx?gid=765521&image=251877337&images=251877337,251877379,251877417&formats=0,0,0&format=0 9: http://knol.google.com/k/loran-archer/pathways-to-abstinence-impact-of/33nxpux3imfog/6 10: http://museumcollections.in.gov/detail.php?t=objects&type=browse&f=object_type&s=Booklet&record=15 11: http://imageevent.com/publicgallery/photography/symbolsandlofos000?p=79&n=1&m=-1&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9 12: http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Storage?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Storage_062009 13: http://baptiststudiesonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/shall-the-fundamentalists-win.pdf 14: http://books.google.com/books?id=2bRx12uApGIC&pg=PA243&lpg=PA243&dq=%22Harry+Emerson+Fosdick%22+%22Shall+the+Fundamentalists+Win%3F%22&source=bl&ots=YKN_8jj4C-&sig=-hUtvAY_HRYUrDFvErL1hzYLtlI&hl=en&ei=jORYSuaMCpDwlAeTmKTjBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8 15: http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd_062009 16: http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/attic2/attic2_207.html 17: http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/vintage/vintage_4506VV2024.html 18: http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/vintage/vintage_4506VV2184.html 19: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Register_of_Historic_Places_listings_in_Orleans_Parish,_Louisiana 20: http://amhist.ist.unomaha.edu/module_files/Harry%20Emerson%20Fosdick%20Shall%20the%20Fundamentalists%20Win.rtf 21: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:William_James_The_Varieties_of_Religious_Experience.pdf 22: http://www.religiondispatches.org/archive/scienceenvironment/1789/we_were_powerless:_addiction,_the_will,_and_the_evangelical_roots_of_the_twelve_steps 23: http://www.aagrapevine.org/da/article.php?id=39321&tb=3ZGE9cSUzQWp1bHkrMTk3NyZwZz01 24: http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jrt2hfWnR3TOfcR2BUHUoaiXsVSgD9BB492O0 25: http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/library/studies/cu/cu28.htm#Anchor-Chapter-4957 26: http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/library/studies/cu/cu28.htm#Anchor-Chapter-49575 27: http://www.jamesallenlibrary.com/the-divine-companion-instruction-concerning-the-great-reality.html 28: http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/chicagotribune/obituary.aspx?n=paul-w-martin&pid=135069949 29: http://www.upi.com/Entertainment_News/TV/2009/11/12/Ryder-begins-work-on-TV-movie/UPI-31871258069245/ 30: http://bp1.blogger.com/_Eqntjja134w/SEYGzZmccfI/AAAAAAAAACk/44OLgiO1Ri0/s1600-h/Untitled1.jpg AA History Lovers 2009 — moderators Nancy Olson and Glenn F. Chesnut — page 1